open thread – April 12-13, 2019

by Alison Green on April 12, 2019

It’s the Friday open thread! The comment section on this post is open for discussion with other readers on anything work-related that you want to talk about. If you want an answer from me, emailing me is still your best bet*, but this is a chance to talk to other readers.

* If you submitted a question to me recently, please don’t repost it here, as it may be in the to-be-answered queue.

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  1. Anonymous Educator*

    Does anyone else find video chat (Skype/Hangouts) interviews to be awkward? I prefer a quick phone call, and then if you like me, bring me in in person. With video chat, I’m always worried I might be out of frame or might let out a laugh if the other side’s video freezes in a weird place but I can still hear their voices.

    1. Foreign Octopus*

      I use Skype for teaching and it’s the best of a bad lot for me. I don’t like being able to see myself during a lesson because I get distracted by how I look or how if I turn my head one way, I’ve got a double chin. For an interview, I’d be hesitant to do one simply because of how distracting I find it.

      1. JJ Bittenbinder*

        Ugh, yes. I am frequently distracted by my double chin or the dark circles under my eyes. We use Skype for team meetings and I’m always distracted by trying to make my expression look interested but not too interested, chin up, don’t scratch your nose in case it looks like you’re picking…I really just want to pay attention to the content!

    2. seasonal allegories*

      I also find it a little weird to take notes or refer to notes while I’m trying to present myself well on video, since it’s so easy to look distracted.

      1. Lady Jay*

        Seconding this. I think Skype hates me and whenever possible, I like to go with something like Zoom or Hangouts (which is merging into some other platform but it sounds like virtual connection through Gmail will still be possible.)

        1. College Career Counselor*

          Thirding. I used zoom recently for the first time and was pleasantly surprised by how well it worked compared to skype. Better picture, better audio, way less glitching. I will be using it for remote group interviews shortly, so I’m hoping it holds up as well there as at did for the 1:1 interaction.

    4. Annie Moose*

      I think familiarity has a lot to do with it. When you haven’t used it before (or you’ve only used it a few times), there’s a lot of nervousness around proper etiquette, what to wear, how to sit or stand, what kind of lighting, audio, etc. etc. but the more you do, the more familiar these things are going to be and the easier it’s going to be to handle weird stuff like audio cutting out, video freezing, etc.

      1. SittingDuck*

        I had a Zoom interview the other day – and I was trying to be super conscious of looking at the camera, and not the interviewer on my screen – because if you look at the other person, it ‘looks’ like you are looking down, to look ‘at’ the other person, you have to stare straight at your camera, typically above you screen.

        I find it really awkward, we are socialized to look at a person while they are talking, but on a video call it doesn’t work.

        What do others do, do you look at the person or at your camera?

        1. College Career Counselor*

          I coach students doing video interviews to look at the camera when speaking and to look at the person when they are speaking to pick up the cues/clues.

    5. Not Today Satan*

      I hate them. I recently Skype interviews and the lag before her response made her seem really dull/disinterested. I knew what caused it but it was really hard not to get a negative impression anyway. (In my defense, she DID seem disinterested in general–but the lag definitely made it worse.)

    6. manuka honey*

      I kind of prefer them because I like getting feedback via body language, but that’s only the case if its a mutual video chat and not you just staring into the camera.

      1. NativeForeigner*

        I prefer video over phone, if it just works. It makes easier to understand if you see the mouth and body language, particularly if it is in a foreign language like English. Some people, also native, speak an unclear English in the phone that makes difficult to follow.

    7. voodoo*

      For me it’s

      Zoom > Hangouts > WebEx > Slack > Strong Phone Connection > Email > Poor Phone Connection > Smoke Signal.

      Maybe it’s because I’m a goshdarn digital native millennial, but I find video chat to be pretty painless, as long as both sides have competency with setting up the mic/headphones to not echo and have high-speed internet. I’ve certainly had awkward calls with folks who don’t fall into that category, however.

    8. She's One Crazy Diamond*

      I hate them. I participate on interview panels for my job sometimes and I’m always irritated when a candidate requests a video interview for our in-person rounds (we always do a phone screening first). I understand if they live a few hours away and meeting in person is a hardship for them so I don’t hold it against their candidacy, but you definitely don’t get as much of a personal connection with someone you meet over video as you do when you meet in person. The only way I feel it would be fair is if all candidates we were interviewing were via video.

    9. Applesauced*

      YES. I had a video interview last week and it was awful! (the video part, I think the interview went well). My interviewers were in a conference room, so I assume my giant head was on their screen. I did not like it and would have preferred a phone call with screen sharing.

    10. Writerboy*

      They’re fine, but I prefer face-to-face. If the employer is a thousand miles away, though, I understand why at least the first contact would be via video.
      What I hate are the one-way interviews where there’s nobody on the other side and you have to record your spoken answer to written questions. I had one of those and it was utterly dehumanizing. If I ever have to do another one, I’m taking myself out of the running. If they can’t be bothered to talk to me even on the phone, then they don’t deserve me.

        1. ScaramoucheScaramouche*

          I have to say on the employer side, I love HireVue because it levels the playing field in some ways on the first step: it ensures every candidate is asked the same questions in the same manner, and it’s recorded so the whole hiring committee can see for themselves how candidates answered. It has many disadvantages, but it has its perks too and when I use it it’s not because I don’t value the candidates – it’s because our HR recommends it and it often works better for the hiring team.

    11. Fake Old Converse Shoes (not in the US)*

      I’ve always used audio only since the average connection here is a mega bucket of cow poo and let me tell you, I’ve had dreadful experiences with Skype. Lag, poor audio quality, bad design (good luck getting out of the search results), just to name a few. It’s not optimized for places with bad internet connections. On the other hand, Google products (Hangouts and Meet) work like a charm.

  2. Anonny*

    So I have this general question I wanted to float out there.

    At my last job, I had gotten a new boss. I did not really like him. It was all these little things that just kind of put me off. Like how his tone would change when he would speak to me and the rest of us *females* who reported to him. He would joke around in meetings with other people, and in the same breath turn to us in a totally different tone when he needed to address us. He put me off, and I knew I wasn’t going to be able to work with him. Plus I was so burned out from this company, I knew it was time to leave anyway.
    So when the following happened, I didn’t really call it out at the time because I had a job offer not long afterwards. I ended up getting sent to a European Country with my boss. Now it is important to note here that he is British, so a lot of what follows he would explain off as (when he felt like explaining anything) as being “European” while we were in *Europe*.

    We had a driver, and he would ride in the front passenger seat every time. Never would offer it to anyone else or explain why. Not even the other people we were traveling with.

    At every meal, he pushed alcohol on me. Even beer in this country is stronger than what my mostly tea totalling self is used to. And he was pushing hard liquor. Charging it to the card which wasn’t allowed. Did it because we were in Europe.

    Forced me to sit through 2 hours of him showing me photos of all the places in the world he had been. But showed me on his i-pad, and made sure to scoot up close to me (sides touching) to do it.

    So all that is kinda eeeehhhh, but then the while we walking through a market place, he went on this hour rant about how Americans did not have decent enough undergarments for women. He began pointing out all the lingerie shops and trying to push me to go into them and bulk up my “lacking” and “boring” underwear collection.

    Like I said, I had a job offer not long after this, so I didn’t end up saying anything to kinda keep the reference. They really went out of their way to hire this fool, and the President still was in his honeymoon phase – it was a very small company. I think it was clear though by my timing that I did not like the guy though. They were upset to see me go. But again, I was leaving regardless. Burn-out was real.

    I mean we are all adults, and I am not going to sit here and make excuses for this because it is absurd – you don’t talk about your female employee’s underwear particularly when you are a man. And I know it wasn’t a “European” Thing. It boundary testing. So say I wasn’t leaving, what would you have done? What have you done when your boss started crossing the creep boundary so fully in a small company?

    1. Overeducated*

      Oh man. I’d like to think I would have reported it, my employer recently introduced a formal anti-harassment policy that is supposed to address instances that don’t rise to the legal definition of harassment or hostile work environment, and your example seems like a perfect way to test it. But I also work in a very hierarchical organization and know multiple women who have left their jobs because of inappropriate supervisors who weren’t penalized for their actions (including one since this policy was introduced). So it’s hard to say how that would have worked out.

    2. esra*

      I would have told him off about the underwear comments, but can offer nothing but commiseration re: the rest. I think we’ve all grit our teeth with the guy who stands/sits too close, shakes your hand too long, and pushes too hard for you to have a drink or relax.

    3. Perpetuum Mobile*

      1. HR. (if doesn’t work, then)
      2. President. (if doesn’t work, then)
      3. Leave.
      3+. Potentially, a sexual harassment case if I had a shred of evidence that I would be able to present in court.

      Just reading it made me angry. Sorry you had to deal with it.

    4. Suspendersarecool*

      I think leaving was the only good option. Personally, I’m kind of a loudmouth and would have said something like WTF are you doing and gotten fired, but even if you finessed pushing back, if the company wasn’t large enough to have HR (or even be subject to title VII?), it probably wouldn’t have gone well for you. I’m glad you were able to find another job.

      1. Anonny*

        I’m a really big loud mouth too, but there is something about being a foreign country where you don’t speak the language and are stuck relying on this one guy. Our driver didn’t even speak English.

    6. Not Me*

      What exactly does “small company” mean? Did he have a boss above him or was he the top of the line? If he had a boss I would’ve gone directly to them and told them what happened and how wrong it is. Actually, I’d still do that even though you’ve left. He’s going to continue to act like that until he’s told not to.

    7. londonedit*

      Nothing to do with him being British, he was just an unspeakable arse. That kind of behaviour doesn’t fly here, either.

      1. Media Monkey*

        this. The front seat thing – a lot of people don’t sit in the front in a taxi (you can’t in a black cab so although you can in a private hire car/ uber, a lot of people still don’t unless they have to to fit everyone in). So i don’t see that being especially british.

        drinking – people are definitely more relaxed about drinking in Uk but pushing alcohol on someone who is saying no is not OK here either.

        photos – he is just a boastful bore. i’m sure they come from anywhere. and he was testing your boundaries for the underwear conversation later maybe?

        Underwear – you have me on that one. no clue apart from him being a sleaze. You are well out of there!

        1. Observer*

          photos – he is just a boastful bore. i’m sure they come from anywhere. and he was testing your boundaries for the underwear conversation later maybe?

          Nope! Not even testing for the underwear conversation. There are plenty of boring, self aggrandizing who don’t sit so close to their employees that they are touching.

    8. AnonEMoose*

      The front passenger seat could have been a car sickness thing…I know people who get very sick riding in the back seat of a car, but do ok in the front.

      The rest of it, though…excuse me while I pry my shoulders down from around my ears. I think leaving was probably your best option, sadly. If the company had had an HR department, I might have mentioned some of these behaviors (especially the underwear thing, because…WTF?!) as part of an exit interview. Or just mentioned it to someone before leaving. But barring that, I don’t know that there was a better option.

      1. Anonny*

        Well if car sickness is a reason, doesn’t that sit as pretty selfish on his part to never offer anyone else a seat in front? I can be very car sick. Every trip we took I had to take motion medication …

        1. WellRed*

          Then it’s up to you to ask if you can sit in the front. Frankly, whenever I travel with higher ups, or just people that have been with the company a lot longer (but are not senior in position to me), I always seem to be in the back seat.

        2. AnonEMoose*

          I guess I don’t see that as selfish…if he needs that as an accommodation, why should he offer it to someone else? Surely if someone else would benefit from sitting in front (other than simply having a preference for doing so), they should speak up?

          Anyway, no way to know if that was even the reason; it’s just one possible explanation. I could also completely believe that the guy is simply a self-centered jerk. It’s only that this particular aspect of his behavior does have a potential explanation that could make it more reasonable.

          Some of his other behavior was unquestionably way over the line of anything acceptable, though. Insisting on sitting so close their sides were touching? Ugh. The underwear thing? Ew…Ewwww…EWWWWWW!! I do not ever want my boss talking about…or preferably even thinking about…my undergarments. The only exception being if I, say, have a dire wardrobe malfunction and need to leave to deal with it. (Although with my current boss, I’m pretty sure all I’d have to say would be “Umm…wardrobe malfunction. Need to go home and take care of it…” and he’d say “See you tomorrow.”

          1. Anonny*

            Why is it selfish? Haha because aside of just me in the bulk of our trips, there were others there from other companies as well. Also, we were being hosted by an entirely different company, and he would not let the CEO sit in the front of his own company’s car with his own company’s driver. That is why it is selfish. And yes, it is always selfish to assume your way into an accommodation particularly when subordinates are involved. Accommodations are discussed and not assumed. This is actually a really dumb argument that has derailed my more important question, so I am going to not engage in this life of thought anymore.

            1. Jolinar of Malkshur*

              You seem to have a real cup on your shoulder about who sits where in a car. There us absolutely nothing wrong with him taking the front seat. (In many Eastern European countries I’ve been to, that seems to be expected.)

              Ditto with alcohol. He had some wine with lunch. Big whoop. In Europe. Double big whoop. And if he’s the boss, he presumably gets some leeway in deciding how corporate credit cards are used. At the very least, you should let his boss take it up with him, rather than arrogating credit card policing duties to yourself. (The letter about Bob from Accounting, self-appointed travel expense guardian, comes to mind.)

              As for putting his hand on your thigh or his lingerie obsession, that is definitely outrageous. But…way to bury the lede.

    10. Dust Bunny*

      RE: Undergarments.

      What on Earth??

      I like to think I’d have turned this around on him but, honestly, no, I’d mostly just be so skeeved out that I’d run home and update my resume. And probably report it once I felt I had a safe “out”.

    11. Artemesia*

      The guy sitting in the front in a cab thing is pretty typically the norm in the US too; there is the sense that it is chivalrous to sit by the help and let the ladies be driven. You know, strange guy driving — you don’t want to put a lady there. Not saying it is or isn’t the thing to do, but it is not ‘European’, it is also pretty standard in the US. It is like a guy opening a door for a woman or walking on the outside on a street.

      All the rest is sexist crap and the lingerie thing totally icky. Too bad you didn’t just say ‘you have got to be kidding me; you think it is appropriate to discuss underwear with your employees?’ but being very old and having grown up in an era where very blatant sexism was something you had to tolerate, I totally understand why you didn’t want to engage the creep in a discussion of his creepiness at the time.

      1. Anonny*

        lol “chivalry” is actually sexism a lot of times – including only holding doors for women, walking a different way with women, sitting in cars with women differently. Like it’s sexist to treat women specifically different – in a “chivalrist” way. And trust me, there was no “chivalry” in this guy either.

        1. e271828*

          Thinking about it, it might have been good that Creepy Boss was up in the front seat, as it meant he was leaving you alone in the back.

      2. Quickbeam*

        The front passenger seat is the “death seat”. far more likely to be killed, Diana notwithstanding.

      3. Grace Less*

        As a female who has worked in mostly male-dominated industries, I’m usually encouraged to sit in the front. I figure they don’t want to end up on a bench seat next to me. I’m amused, but not offended.

    12. Lora*

      Leave. That’s honestly the only feasible option I’ve seen, short of poisoning their tea.

      I’m kidding. Sort of.

    13. Finance PA*

      Everyone else already said this is all super sketch indeed but just wanted to add, as a Brit with coworkers from all over Europe – absolutely not a British or European thing. But you already know that!

    15. MissDisplaced*

      Shotgun Seat and liquor are weird and questionable behavior. Charging the liquor is really bad if it’s out of travel policy.
      Photos on the iPad are hanky, awkward and uncomfortable, but probably not directly crossing into sexual harassment, though you would have been within your rights to say something about the invasion of personal space.
      But the think about the undergarments? Ewwwww! Very much crossing that line to sexual harassment, whether in “Europe” or not! Yikes! What a creep!

      1. Jules the 3rd*

        The alcohol is grooming / boundary pushing. It’s actually right up there with the undergarments comments. Pushing alcohol is so not ok, it’s not even funny.

    16. Louise*

      It won’t help (other than not being alone) I had a (great-grand so very high up the food chain) boss once talk to me and two other young-ish (early 30s) women about the bras of France and how all the women there don’t wear them and he couldn’t stop staring at the beautiful model like women with no bras on.

      That was an unpleasant convo. Also, my suspicion was that he was testing us, to see if anyone liked the convo, so he could push more boundaries later.

      One of the women in the convo was my actual boss who got up and left us there to deal with the conversation. So I initially refused to go to HR (even though she did? But she abandoned us there?) So I found a new job, post haste. But then I did tell HR about it in my exit interview but there were a lot of politics going on there at the time so nothing was done and that HR person left too. But the guy def still works there.

      1. Earthwalker*

        While I can think up a dozen great things to do about this situation, you’ve just explained why, in reality, I wouldn’t have done any of them. I would have sought out another job and left with no explanation. I would count on the company to do nothing positive, and possibly something detrimental to me, for speaking up. It’s not fair for a woman to be harassed and then to have her career damaged by a label of “Problem Employee” or “Feminist Whiner,” but when you speak up you take that risk. It’s probably cowardly, but I would have left quietly and cut my losses. Let the company figure out the problem from the frequent turnover and perhaps to address it because turnover costs. (This really can happen. My favorite condescending knee-patter was indeed let go for having 4x the turnover of his peers.)

    17. afiendishthingy*

      It doesn’t sound like you really had much of any recourse. It doesn’t sound like a company that had HR. You could have gone to his boss and said “hey deal with this because I know you care about keeping Teapots R Us a safe workplace for women.” Then if they didn’t do anything you could a) tell the EEOC or b) light them up on social media (this would be my preference). But really, leaving was your best move. I would still do my best to trash his reputation though

    18. designbot*

      I think I would’ve said something precisely *because* you knew you were leaving. The people who remain would take a much bigger risk to try and call out his behavior, but you would be able to walk away from any fallout.
      I would’ve said something the first time he started talking underwear like, “My underwear’s none of your business.” and then gone to HR first thing when we got back. Each of his things isn’t super egregious, but the sum total is very clear.

    19. Rosaline Montague*

      This is all classic grooming behavior. Predators test their targets to see how they will respond and if they will accept boundary crossing, all with a veneer of plausible deniability. Chances are this is a very long-standing pattern and you aren’t the first and won’t be the last to experience these tactics. It doesn’t sound like you have much recourse but if you do know other women who are new to the company you could give them a heads up that Boss does not have great boundaries.

    20. Luna*

      I would tell the boss that my undergarments are none of his business, period. Doesn’t matter if you are staying at the job or leaving. The words ‘sexual harassment’ come to mind. Same with demanding I drink alcohol – I generally don’t drink, so I would refuse anything, and not sit too close. I don’t do well with being too close to people, and forcing yourself into my personal space is a good way to make me detest you and want to shove you away, if words don’t work.
      And I am a German, so I am just as ‘European’ as he claims to be.

  3. Sunflower*

    How do I talk to my new boss at my new job about needing some schedule flexibility early on? I started my job on Monday this week.

    I accepted a new job a month ago. The next day, I found out my father had a serious health situation come up that could be easily corrected. Last week, I found out that it’s more complex than they originally thought and I am expecting to need to travel between my parents and my city more often in the near future than I anticipated. I live in a city about 2 hours from my parents- they are both major cities and my company has a smaller office there. During interviews, the recruiter said we do WFH once a week so while I haven’t discussed the exact WFH situation with my boss, I know it’s something the company is open to (FWIW I’m not entry-level).

    How do I approach this with my boss? I’m not so much worried about down the line but I’m only a week into my new job and anticipate needing at least 3 days in the next 3 months to go home. I’ve never needed flexibility so soon and am nervous I will come off as a flaky hire. I will need some flexibility to make this work but I’m totally open to doing whatever needs to be done to make this work. Any suggestions?

    1. canary*

      Be up-front about the situation and that you’re aware that it’s an awkward time being so early in your position. Say what you said in the second-to-last sentence of your post. And then be a rockstar in the rest of your work so they can see that you’re not flaky. Life happens at often inconvenient times, and I hope your new office is understanding about that!

    2. Not Me*

      I’m sorry your dad is having health issues, I hope he’s feeling better sooner than later.

      Do you feel comfortable enough with your boss to share what you’ve shared here? I think most people would be understanding and the way you’ve laid it out here seems pretty reasonable. Three days over the next three months doesn’t seem like something a boss would find out of line considering the situation.

    3. BenAdminGeek*

      I think a quick meeting face-t0-face as soon as possible is best. Otherwise you run the risk of having to be out of town due to your father and having the conversation awkwardly then. I’d explain the situation clearly, allowing him to understand that it’s unexpected but also time-limited- it won’t be 5 years of you doing this.

      Assuming your new boss isn’t an ass, you being clear that you understand the optics and will work to ensure you’re still performing at a high level should go a long way. Not being entry-level also helps.

    4. Seal*

      Six weeks before starting my new job, I had surgery to repair a torn rotator cuff. Recovery from such surgery involves regular visits to physical therapy and the orthopedic specialist, In fact, I didn’t get the sling until just before I started my new job and couldn’t do much with that arm beyond using the computer for several more months. Since I had already been hired, I told my soon-to-be new boss before I started that I was having surgery and that while there would be an extensive recovery period I did not expect it to affect my start date or my job performance. I was able to flex my time to accommodate my PT and doctor’s appointments and ultimately made a full recovery. But I also made a point of keeping my boss informed and being very conscientious about making up my time out of the office. As the OP points out, I was totally open to doing whatever needed to be done to make it work and in the end it did – that was the key.

    5. SinSA*

      I learned literally the night before I started the job I am with currently that my father had terminal cancer. So I had to lead with that on my very first day! Everyone was incredibly understanding that I would have to take some long weekends to go and see him and they were absolutely wonderful the whole time.

    6. Psyche*

      Three days really isn’t that much. I would just explain the situation and ask for the days off (offering to take them unpaid if there is no PTO yet). It isn’t really even asking for schedule flexibility, just a few days off for a family emergency.

    7. Not One of the Bronte Sisters*

      I think you should speak to your new boss sooner rather than later. Tell him just what you’ve said here. You should also say that you are happy to take the time off without pay (if your company would require PTO to be accrued, because you won’t have accrued any yet). I also wonder, if your company is open to WFH, might they also be open to your working from their other office from time to time? That way perhaps you wouldn’t have to travel back and forth so much when visiting your father. My thoughts and prayers are with you and your dad.

    8. Dasein9*

      Add my voice to those recommending you speak to your boss sooner rather than later. As I tell students: the earlier I know something is going on, the more help I can offer. The same is probably true of your boss; this is the sort of thing people tend to want to help with.

      1. Clementine*

        I saw a posting on LinkedIn from someone who was allowed zero bereavement leave because he was in his first 90 days, and an immediate family member had died. So he was fired. I hope it goes well, but it doesn’t always.

  4. Violent Femme*

    Any successful mid-career changers out there? I need some words of encouragement as it’s been pretty daunting trying to make the transition. I’ve been working in my profession for over 10 years and I’m literally upending the apple cart and am having trouble staying motivated, despite getting my degree. I worry I’m being too specific about where I will go, since my current situation is not terrible — despite the fact that I don’t really enjoy what I do.

    1. CMart*

      What’s your motivation for transitioning?

      I sort of did a “career change”, in that 10 years after getting my BA and trying/failing to get into my preferred industry (thanks, 2008 graduation!) I got a master’s and became an accountant. My “previous life” was in communications/really just bartending because I needed to make money.

      So it was a great unknown – totally different to what I’d been doing – which was kind of scary. But I focused on the reasons I decided to shake things up. I wanted a regular schedule, to not work on my feet. I wanted healthcare, a higher salary and advancement opportunities. I never really wanted to worry about job security. So even though I was a little unsure about the content/nature of my actual work I was VERY sure about the quality of life change.

        1. CMart*

          I did! I’m 2 years into my corporate accounting gig :)

          The work is interesting enough but nothing I’m passionate about – but that’s perfectly okay with me. I don’t need to be saving the world or feeling invigorated. I found a company that ticked nearly all of my checkboxes for what I wanted out of “a job”. Friendly colleagues, helpful management, above-average salary, decent benefits, predictable but flexible hours, close to home. Plus a bunch of other things I didn’t know I wanted (lots of windows, unlimited sick time, ability to WFH if needed, dedication to mentoring, a culture of moving groups/roles every few years to avoid stagnation and promote cross-functionality etc…)

          I’m really happy I took the risk of shelling out $$$ on another degree and feel very fortunate I was able to a) pay for it and b) complete it. I miss bartending and would probably go back to it if I won the lottery, but my quality of life is so much improved.

          1. ArtsNerd*

            As someone who has only ever worked in nonprofit ‘passion’ jobs, I just want to reiterate that it is not the path for everyone and that is a good thing. (For one thing, the NGO sector and creative industries aren’t exactly aching for lack of qualified labor…)

            On the quality-of-life side, there is SO MUCH value in leaving your job at the door, having solid financial footing, and an enriching personal life with hobbies completely unrelated to your job. (I have… one of those and that’s unusual in itself.) The world needs accountants! It needs supply-chain experts and insurance adjusters and retail staff and B2B enterprise software! Any time someone tells me they feel that they ‘should’ be doing ‘more’ with their day jobs, I try to convince them otherwise.

    2. Putting the "pro" in "procrastinate"*

      Hello – I changed careers myself, and I love to talk to people about it because I think it can be a great way to revitalize yourself and your work life when you are feeling unmotivated and uninterested in the path you have in front of you.

      I advise you to think broadly about the skills you have . Don’t think about the industry you’re working in, but think about what you know how to do. More than that, think about what you like to do. What do you enjoy doing in your job? What kind of jobs are out there that might let you do more of that? That’s how I went from practicing patent law to technical writing. I realized that my favorite parts of the patent law job *were* technical writing, and if I found a technical writing job I could spend more of my time doing that.

      And that brings me to the other advice – when you apply, use your cover letter to make the connection between the skills you developed in your old industry and the work you are trying to break into. You can’t expect hiring managers and recruiters to make that connection for you. If I had applied for my tech writing job with just a resume, the recruiter would probably have thought I had clicked the wrong button and would have forwarded my resume to the legal department! And I knew that whoever saw this resume would be unlikely to even know what a patent lawyer does all day. So I wrote a letter that explained why patent law practice is technical writing, why I loved that part of the job, and why I was looking for opportunities to do more of it.

      That’s what I’ve got for you! Good luck.

      1. SomeoneElse*

        That’s great advice. What I liked about advertising was the data (I didn’t do much mass, mostly targeted, data-heavy stuff). Financial data is similar but way better because I don’t have to manage 2 sets of politics and I get to analyse the heck out of trends and all that fun stuff.

      2. Fortitude Jones*

        I agree with everything you said here, and I asked myself those same questions almost a year and a half ago when I switched careers from financial services (on the law and insurance sides) to proposal management. I love, and am good at, writing, so I knew I needed to find a job where I was doing more of that and less external customer service work. Even though I’m bored to tears in my current role, I understand it’s the nature of my current company, my manager, my assignments, and my industry as opposed to me having made a mistake. I’m about to switch industries as a proposal writer, and I think that’ll make all the difference in the world when I’m dealing with technology full time – I’ll actually have to use my brain again!

    3. NBG*

      I am a career switcher (in the midst of my second career change). I’ve found this book to be very useful: https://www.drdawnoncareers.com/switchers-the-book/. The book is all about changing careers and delves into everything from your motivations to researching fields and job search tactics. The author also has a podcast that I found very engaging

    4. SomeoneElse*

      I was an account manager in adverting firms for about 6 years before going back to school and becoming an accountant. I’ve never regretted it. I took a HUGE pay cut to do it but it was worth it (I do NOT work in public accounting – don’t need or want those kinds of hours, proved I could do it in advertising and no thank you, I’m done.) I’ve been an accountant for about 8 years.

      1. Violent Femme*

        This is sort of my situation. I’ve worked in communications for 10 years. Recently got my masters in librarianing. Will have to take a pay cut. I accept that. But, I’m worried that I’m being too picky about what librarianing I will do. I just don’t want to end up in an area I’m not interested in — which is basically how I ended up in my current career. (English major that wound up in Marketing because I needed a job after school and kept doing well enough to get promoted even though I didn’t enjoy the work)

        1. Maria the Medical Librarian*

          Library jobs are hard to find. Twenty-five years after getting my MLS in the hopes of landing in a public library, I’ve never worked in a public library. I would try to be as open as possible about the kind of library job and, if you can move, the location in order to improve your chances at getting hired.

        2. aunt bop*

          I worked in HR for ten years, then became a librarian. It’s the best thing I ever did for my career (and overall life satisfaction) but I was fortunate that my partner at the time was able to support both of us while I took a 50% cut in pay at one point.

          Have you looked into special libraries?

        3. Violent Femme*

          Thank you both! I work in a large city that has library options, but I actually want to move to a smaller city closer to family. (I’m not only done with my career, but “The City”.) And I’d prefer to get a position that supports research in a subject or area that I’m interested in — whether that’s a public, academic, or special library, I’m pretty open. This is where I’m concerned I’m being too picky. That if I don’t just stick my foot in any door than I won’t have a door to walk through. But, if I pick the wrong door, I’ll be trapped by it later.

          Either way I know that a significant pay cut is in my future. I’ve had to budget in the past, so I’m less concerned about that.

          1. aunt bop*

            This is just my experience but I started out my library career in pharma and thought I would be trapped in it. I went that route because I was in HR in pharma companies, even though I grew to dislike the industry. But I’ve left pharma and now work in advertising so you may not be trapped. I am in a very large city though. Get involved in ALA or SLA or MLA and make connections!

          2. Library Land*

            I wondered if you were planning to switch to the library world, since it’s one area that actually supports mid-career switches. If you’re wanting to support research you should avoid public libraries (and school libraries but that’s mostly about them disappearing). Academics, specials, or medical would be suited to that. I’m not sure what classes you took or if you did any internships but looking at what you enjoyed and what you excelled at would lead you to where you want to go.

            I will say that the library world is large but feels incredibly small. There are a bunch of low-lying fruits and the nice paying/good benefits jobs are very competitive. If you didn’t do any internships while in school (or are not working in a library now), you’re going to have to find jobs where your past will be a huge benefit. Outside experience can be a huge plus in academic libraries.

            No matter where you land, you can always switch positions/libraries later. It may be hard, might take a little longer, but it happens often. Also, as a final note, there are people who paint getting an MLIS as a direct ticket to getting a job. That’s not really the case. Trying to find a position that blends what you’ve been doing with where you want to go is what will get you a job sooner rather than later – though you can’t ignore this field is a very talented one. Many times you will think you’re perfect for a job and be rejected for someone who has way more qualifications than you can imagine (ask me how I know, lol). So keep your head up and keep applying!

          3. Oxford Comma*

            Here’s my two cents. I’ve always been an academic librarian, but I have friends in lots of different types of libraries some of whom have moved around a bit. It seems to be easier to get a job in a public library after having been an academic one rather than the other way round. Having said that, you probably have more fluidity of movement in the first two years of your post-MLS career.

            If you want more money, your best option is probably special or corporate. For stability, I’d say academic.

            I second what Aunt Bop says below about getting involved with some of the associations or at least checking out any career services they offer (help with resumes, job fairs at conferences, etc.). Since you mention you want to move to a smaller city, I would definitely check out the regional chapters for whatever type of library you want to land in. For instance, an ACRL chapter, SLA chapter, MLA chapter.

        4. Teapot Librarian*

          I don’t have any wisdom to share because I was just exceedingly lucky in my career switch, but wanted to jump in with my own data point of working in one field for 10 years and then getting my MLS!

    5. JobHunter*

      Following because I am in the same boat as you, VF. I can only offer commiseration and encouragement!

    6. Aspiring Chicken Lady*

      I love career changers. They bring a new perspective to the next job that they do, and they are more likely to want to learn new things and take risks.

      The biggest challenge is to understand what skills/knowledge/experience the new job is actually asking for, and then to describe how you have those things in context. You can do that in your resume, and in informational interviews/conversations that you’ll have with people in the new field.

      I have never done the same job twice (except for survival retail). It takes more effort to search out the new jobs, but it’s an awful lot of fun!

      If you’re in the US and want someone to bounce ideas off of, look for your Dept of Labor Career Center for free assistance in job search and career development.

    7. Put the Blame on Edamame*

      Do it! I did, and it’s something I’m really proud of. The hardest parts were all in the beginning- getting started, asking for help, building up new skills and a network- but it turned out that at 33 I already had those basic skills down (like, you know how you best learn, you understand professional behaviour, you can manage your time) so picking up the specifics of the job wasn’t nearly as tough as it would’ve been 10 years earlier. Six years later I’ve grown far more rapidly than I ever did in previous lines if work, just through self knowledge and motivation.

    8. Beth*

      I made a truly massive career change at 40ish, and it went incredibly well, but my experience may not be much help.

      My first career was in the arts, in an unglamourous support role — it was what I wanted to do and I loved the work, but the pay was really horrible, and the work environment ran on the credo, “If you work here, it’s because you loooove the arts so much that you can’t be happy anywhere else, so you’ll take crappy pay, crappy benefits, and crappy treatment, and just smile and say thank you. You would NEVER be happy working in an office!”

      I decided that was BS, and that while I might not find office work to be as near to my heart as the arts, it would almost certainly pay better. I went back to school, first part-time and then full-time, and studied business and computers. I turned out to be really good at computers. I acquired a wide swath of new skills, worked at several places that weren’t great but were at least no worse than my last arts employer, and have been at my current REALLY AMAZING AND WONDERFUL company for almost a decade. I will be here till I retire. And I will be able to retire!!

      Key things here:
      1. Expectations — I didn’t think I would find a True Calling; I had already done that. I wanted a decent income and the satisfaction of doing a job well.
      2. Flexibility — I didn’t have my eye on any given career or field. I ended up where I am largely through luck of the draw: when I was job-hunting after getting my computer and business skills up to par, I applied at a huge range of different places. I worked my butt off at the one where I got my foot in the door, and it paid off.
      3. Luck — it wasn’t easy parlaying my fine arts degree into an office job, and I had to get creative in how I presented my skills and strengths. I found an employer who decided to take a chance, and I made damned sure his gamble paid off.

      So, in my case, I landed well largely because I had a really wide field of options of where I might go and what I might do. I would say that the narrower your target area for your new career is, the harder you will need to work to make yourself really desirable to employers in that field, and the harder you will have to work to make the move.

      But it can be really, really, really lovely, especially as you get older, to find yourself in a really good work environment, and it’s really lovely to be well-paid for work you enjoy. If I were Queen of the Universe, everyone would be in this position.

    9. Double A*

      I’m in a situation where I’m considering a career change because my job is being eliminated and that job I’m being transferred to is a non-starter for me, so basically I’m losing my job. I’m a teacher. I also have a 6 month old baby. So I’m looking at possible career change NOT due to my choice, and doing it with a young baby. My circumstances are really not ideal for making an informed, careful choice.

      Does anyone have any insight about changing careers under duress? I don’t have any extra time or energy outside of — at best — a 40 hour work week. I’m thinking of just taking a pay cut and maybe having no benefits (they’re not an option through my husband’s job) and just subbing for awhile so I don’t have to make a decision while I’m in one of most vulnerable moments in my life?

      1. JobHunter*

        I did, and it was the most positive personal change I could have made. I was fortunate that my network had my back. I took a survival job while following the advice of two very wise people: 1) reflect on what I enjoyed most and 2) be open to new or unusual possibilities. I now have a broad range of knowledge–I was able to use my prior work experience in my new field–and could reasonably go in one of several directions. My search isn’t going as easily as I had hoped, but I suppose that is to be expected.

  5. Anon anony*

    Whenever I request time off, my boss approves it, but will then sort of guilt trip me about it. She’ll assign a project to me, and then add how she approved my time off. (We receive an automated message when time off has been approved.) I don’t know why she does this, but if I have the time available, why does it matter?

    The stuff that I’m working on is not time sensitive, so it never interferes with my request for time off. (I’m not gone that often. The last time that I took off was in December when I was sick and I gave a Dr’s note.)

    Plus, she’ll tell my coworker that if she’s only gone for an hour or two, she can “make up” the time, but I was never given that option.

    1. The Man, Becky Lynch*

      Your boss is a stinker. That’s not entirely uncommon reaction from some bosses, they think that approving leave [despite you having the time banked] as a favor, not as a benefit that you’re accessing. It’s obnoxious and I’m sorry you get that treatment.

    2. Dust Bunny*

      Your boss is a jerk.

      How far is she likely to take this? Because I would be tempted to ask her point-blank why she makes such a point of rubbing your nose in it since it apparently doesn’t affect your output. If she’s likely to escalate, though, better to accept that she’s got issues and interact with her only when you have to.

    3. by no means good at advice*

      Next time you need an hour or two off (doc’s appointment or something) why not try directly asking if you can “make up” the time before even putting in a formal request. Something like “I heard Debbie was able to make up the time she’d be missing for a doctor appointment. Would it be alright if I worked late a few nights this week to cover for the time I’ll miss to get to my appointment?”

      As far as the projects for time off… I’m a bit more stymied for a response. If the project assignment looks like every other assignment other than the tacking on of the “I approved the request” message, I’d say just ignore it. Maybe your boss put those automated responses into a filter for “mark as read” ages ago and forgot you get direct approval. If there is clear indication though that this is a “here is a project because I gave you time off” situation… I don’t know. Maybe find a random time to frame it as a “explain your thought process as a leader on why you’d give someone going on PTO a project instead of letting them get ahead on their work before they go instead?”

      1. Sunflower*

        Everywhere I have worked as a salaried employee, they only allowed you to take time off in full or half day increments so it was implied that if you had to miss a few hours, you would make it up somewhere down the line and you didn’t need to take PTO. I would definitely ask your boss- he might think you’re taking the time as PTO because you want to, not because you think you have to.

    4. It's Pronounced Bruce*

      She’s a butt. No two ways about it.

      She doesn’t like you taking time off, and she’s decided the best way to handle that is to passive aggressively pressure you about it. You might feel the inclination to try to show how extra responsible you are, provide extra documentation about why the time off is necessary, give extra information. Don’t do it, there’s no point and it only opens you up to more scrutiny.

    5. Triplestep*

      My last boss was this kind of petty score-keeper, and since she sucked in so many other ways, I’m guessing yours does too. Keep your eyes open for things like her being overly-hierarchical, micro-managing, or (like a the direct report of a LW this week) wants to be praised for her great managing. These are things that often go hand in hand. If any of this sounds familiar, you have a boss that sucks and is not going to change. Start to develop and exit strategy.

  6. Danielle*

    I’m a new college instructor, teaching mostly juniors and seniors, and I’d love to hear what you wish new grads were learning right before entering the workforce – about work habits, norms, applying for jobs, soft skills, hard skills, writing/communication, anything. My field is environmental science, but I have students going into government, education, factory work, consulting, business, etc. so a broad range of responses welcome. I currently focus on improving their written communication skills (mostly technical writing) and ability to take feedback from peers by having them evaluate each other’s work frequently, but I’m open to new ideas!

    1. Overeducated*

      One thing I learned, and have had to teach interns, is to brief up and share work in progress more than you have to in school. That’s because your boss has responsibility for what you’re working on, unlike in school when it’s 100% on you, and needs to know how it’s going, offer feedback on drafts and progress, and keep their own leadership updated if necessary. It’s actually not always good to just work feverishly on your own until you can unveil a finished product. When and how much you have to do this varies by workplace so I’d alert them that this is something they should ask about when they start.

      1. Not One of the Bronte Sisters*

        Overeducated, this is an excellent answer and I’m not sure I would have thought of it. To add to that, I would say keep track of your process while doing your work. That way if at any point anyone questions your results you can go back and figure out how you got there and whether you made an error or failed to consider something that would have impacted your results. I think that scientists do this; others, I’m not so sure.

      2. It's Pronounced Bruce*

        This is both a great answer and one that I’ve never heard suggested before.

      3. Anonthistime*

        Omg I learned this the hard way when I first started my current job (I only started working 3 years ago so this is a lesson I recently learned. It was flagged as a performance issue by my manager. In hindsight I understand why, but I didn’t know at the time I was doing anything wrong because I was coming up with really good reports so what did it matter? It turned out I was making my directors very anxious and annoyed. I now provide very thorough updates to my directors on an almost daily basis.

      4. helena18282*

        For me, learn to walk really well before you run. I’ve worked with juniors who seem to think the basics are beneath them and announce they’re ready to move onto the ‘bigger’ tasks while still making simple mistakes, not proof reading etc. Do your work really well, on-time, and i’ll move you onto more advanced stuff when you’re ready… Oh and use spellcheck.

      5. KatK*

        Oh, this is such a good one and I wish someone could’ve told me this last year when I graduated. I was very guilty of this, between coming from college where your process is all you and other people (e.g., professors) only really care about the final project and being anxious about not-totally-clear deadlines (partly my manager’s fault, but I should’ve asked for clarification). Took six months of chafing under what felt like micromanagement before I realized.

    3. >:(*

      How to use emails and other means of communication. Depending on where they’re going, some companies might prefer traditional emails or slack or discord or what have you.

      Also, direct them to this website!

    4. LadyByTheLake*

      They are responsible for their own work. I am amazed that some college graduates have gotten used to tutors, parents etc reviewing and correcting their work and then they get into the work force and don’t understand that THEY are the ones who are supposed to be presenting polished, final work.

      1. It's Pronounced Bruce*

        Woof, this is something that’s really getting to me lately. It’s not the students’ fault so much, though, it’s the expectations they get from their schools that their work will be bigger and grander than what would be produced by only themselves. This kind of thing has only gotten worse in the 10, 15 odd years since I was in school, but it was already starting when I was younger. Schools often give things out now with the expectation that parents will largely complete them and the kids will just be along to watch, it’s wild. A lot of expectations also include the assumption that students will spend time every week in outside tutoring. It means kids that don’t (or can’t) get that kind of help are at a disadvantage, too, so no amount of wanting to do it for yourself is going to work. You’d be screwing yourself by trying.

        It’s definitely leaked into the workplace, too. In my early-mid 20’s I got a lot of sass from coworkers and management for needing schedule flexibility around life events because “an adult” should just be taking care of things for me. There was sort of this scoffing attitude that anything I needed to deal with was just a wiggly excuse I had made up and surely, mom and dad could just handle this instead… Even the time one of those parents was going through cancer treatment and was seriously ill. So once again, you’re on this playing field where when you are actually trying to be the one responsible for what you should be responsible for, it actually harms your perception and reputation.

      2. Overeducated*

        This is so funny because it’s the opposite of what I posted above. It sounds like things have changed a lot since I was in school, and the interns I work with are mostly mid-20s and sometimes graduate level, so they haven’t really internalized this either. A little nervous about what to expect as a parent now….

        1. It's Pronounced Bruce*

          I think both things are actually simultaneously true, and they feed into each other. The idea is that you don’t talk to your teacher/professor/manager or give status updates or ask too many questions, you take all that back to your external supports in the form of your parents or tutors or whathaveyou and get them to help you make it happen.

          I had college professors who straight up said they didn’t answer questions and told you to hire a tutor if you ever had a question about the material, for example. Going from that environment to one where you’re expected to communicate openly with the people giving you work is a hell of a transition.

          1. Overeducated*

            Wow. I’m sorry you had the worst professor! That’s literally their job! But that’s an interesting dynamic you’re describing.

    5. Lucette Kensack*

      Writing! Lots and lots of writing. Varied writing, for varied audiences (people with similar levels of expertise to you, people with basic understanding of your topic, people with no understanding of your topic).

    6. HR Recruiter*

      Good resume writing and interview skills (not the crap advice they normally get). How to use Outlook and calendar. I wish schools taught employees what their rights are. More employers are doing this now because of the me too movement. But I remember being just out of school and having something inappropriate happen and having no idea what I was supposed to do because I had never received training. Then on the flip side you have new employees who anytime their boss tells them what do to do they call it a hostile work environment and think HR is going to jump into action. Nope your boss is supposed to tell you what to do.

    7. Parenthetically*

      +1 to Overeducated’s comment about checking in as an important professional norm!

      My hobby horse is file naming and organization — just about teacher or prof can attest to the fact that they get an inbox full of “essay.doc” or “finalproject.doc” at the end of term. It’s such an easy thing to set up a nested file system and a couple naming conventions and it’ll do nothing but make your life easier for school or work.

      1. Hamburke*

        Ooh! This is so true! The last parent teacher conference I had with one of my kids teachers, they commented on my kids’ file naming – projectname_kidname

    8. Aspiring Chicken Lady*

      I wish more colleges showed students the jobs that they’re actually preparing themselves for. Career planning should start with freshman year, as far as I’m concerned.

      As a former college writing tutor, we loved it when professors strongly recommended (or required) students to bring their papers to us for feedback.
      As a current employment counselor, I would love it if a professor strongly recommended a trip to the career center … or at least took a bit of class time to relate the learning to specific jobs/job tasks that an individual might use the information for.
      As a former college student … I distinctly remember a short reading in my Anthropology 101 class that described how an Anthropology major who was working in a warehouse used their understanding of how people think and interact with their environment to develop different processes in the warehouse to reduce shrinkage and errors. It’s been 36 years since I took that class and read that short assignment, but I learned a lot about the world in those few pages.

      1. ursula*

        Yeah, I agree with this. I think young people tend to choose their field of study largely based on what topics interest them (and where their competencies align in school), without much attention to what kind of job conditions they can expect – not just in terms of job market, earning power, etc, but also in terms of desk job vs field work, collaboration vs solo work, strict hierarchies w clear roles vs flatter or less formal structures, straight 9-5 vs shiftwork or self-defined hours, etc. That stuff matters so much!! And I know young people won’t necessarily know what they want on a lot of those axes until they try a few jobs and feel it out, but I wish we talked more about how to identify work environments that will be good for you, over and above just “a job more or less in my field.” I also thoroughly agree with introducing some reliable sources of ongoing advice, like AAM (and, I would have said previously, The Billfold (RIP)).

        1. Lora*

          This +1. Also I would add, what the job looks like entry level vs what it looks like later career. I know a great many early career STEM folks who adored doing lab work and field work and then later in their careers when the job is really all about grant writing/CAPEX justifications/soft skills working with non-STEM executives, became frustrated and miserable.

        2. Lynn Whitehat*

          OMG, yes! School life is pretty much school life, regardless of major. But different careers have very different lifestyles. Nurses often work 3 12-hour shifts a week and are expected to work holidays. Petroleum engineers often go out in the (oil) field, which tends to be a very remote location. Tax preparation is basically every waking moment the few weeks before April 15th, and very chill most of the year. Software developers will always have to devote some time to learning about new things in the field. And so on.

          Those might be good or bad things. But they lead to different lifestyles. And that’s before you even get into things like “do you deal with the public, clients, or just co-workers?” Or “how much standing is there?” It’s a huge waste for someone to get, say, a BSN, and THEN realize they can’t tolerate 12-hour shifts on their feet.

        3. Leslie Knope’s Long-Lost Twin*

          I totally agree. I majored in genetics because 1) I really liked biology and other life sciences in school and thought genetics was fascinating and 2) it was the 90s and there was a lot of pressure for girls who were good at math&science to go into math&science.

          In college, I learned that I really didn’t like and wasn’t great at doing the type of lab work that makes up most advanced science classes and entry level science jobs. Despite being a “disgrace to the gender” in the words of one friend, I switched my major to political science, went to law school, practiced law for a decade, and now oversee a small program for the state government. Which I absoforkinglutely LOVE! I love the subject matter. I love policy. I love writing and analyzing regulations. I love meetings with people with diverse opinions who all care about these issues.

    9. Plain Jane*

      The professional world isn’t nearly as black and white as school or service types of jobs where people will tell you what you can and can’t do, like put your phone away. In the professional world, people might not tell you to put your phone away, but they might think you’re distracted or not getting your work done if they see it a lot.

    10. Anon for Now*

      All the things you described are good.

      I’d add, taking notes during meetings/conversations, and then taking time to really listen to what others have to say.

      And, then I would really emphasize that school experience is not equal to work experience. Even internship experience is not equal to work experience.

      1. Queen of the File*

        I agree. Being an A+ student does not mean you’re going to arrive at work already awesome at your job (and that’s ok!)

    12. Policy Wonk*

      Writing, particularly writing brief, to the point summaries. I often have to spend time teaching new hires that when I say I want three brief points, I want three brief points, not a three page paper. And they need to put the bottom line up front, not in the conclusion. Many senior people will not have time to read a whole paper or report, and need the issues/recommendations to be easily accessible.

      1. Midwest writer*

        I love your point about putting the bottom line up front. It’s amazing how many people I see come out of college with a journalism/communications background who STILL don’t do this in news article writing.

      2. Joy*

        Haha I was going to say something very, very similar, and then I saw your comment and name. As a policy wonk myself, coming from a scientific background, it took a while to learn that senior management does NOT need or want me to “show my work” they just want to know the conclusion. That was very opposite all schooling!

    13. Teapot Painter*

      I second directing them to this site.

      Also, explain what are reasonable employee expectations vs. unreasonable employee expectations. Example: using sick leave for a doctor’s appointment is pretty common, kinda annoying, but not egregious. Expecting a doctor’s note for a doctor’s appointment: abnormal and a sign that the employer is not treating their employees as responsible adults. Show them the signs of a toxic workplace so they can spot them in interviews if possible. If I had known things like that I wouldn’t have taken my first job out of college!

    14. Princess Consuela Banana Hammock*

      How to draft appropriate emails, as well as taking responsibility for their learning.

      For item #1, it would be really helpful if students realized sooner than later that there are different levels of formality in email drafting. Grammar, punctuation, complete and logical sentences, etc., are a plus when communicating with your instructor. Essentially, don’t treat your email like a text message when writing to someone in a professional or supervisorial setting. (But at the same time, don’t go overboard with formality. This can be a tough needle to thread if you’re only used to emailing your friends and parents.)

      On item #2, I’m shocked by the number of current students who will fail to show up for classes or turn in their assignments, and then they try to argue or negotiate passing a class (usually after being given multiple notices and opportunities to correct). I’m also low-key shocked by the number who have their bulldozing parents call me to contest their grades.

      1. Quiltrrrr*

        I’m always surprised that adults have parents call about grades. I have a 6th grader and an 8th grader, and I don’t even contest THEIR grades! They have a problem with the teacher, they need to deal with it! I won’t even consider getting involved until I know they’ve talked to their teachers first.

      2. Queen of the File*

        We’ve had a couple of students carry habits from #2 into their jobs as well. People think it should be obvious but we’ve had more than one student not understand that attendance was mandatory at work other than with a legitimate, serious reason and a call in.

      3. Alianora*

        I’m kind of confused — I thought you were a lawyer for your university, why would parents call you to contest grades?

    15. Ashley*

      I always seem to have issues with people not knowing when you should pick up the phone and have a conversation instead of super long email chains. In my field texting is quite acceptable but there are people that don’t always realize when to text vs call vs email. It is nuanced but not picking up on norms makes you stand out as inexperienced.

    16. MuseumChick*

      So many things! How to write a cover letter. No one ever taught me and I was completely lost (and terrible) at writing them until I found this site. What “professionalism” means, especially for people right out of school this can be a slippery and difficult concept to grasp. For example, the letter here about the intern who was refusing to do her job because of her politics. Another example, we hired a recent college grad at several months ago. At his first pay check he came in and said (verbatim) “My mom says you didn’t pay me correctly.”

      Another thing, that you will have to talk on the phone.

      1. Hillary*

        +1 to talking on the phone. I’ve taught more than one intern how to dial long distance, and I’ve worked with more than a few new grads who struggle a lot with the phone in general. I understand norms are changing, but in many industries phone is still the default. The junior person has to adapt their communication to norms and leaders’ preferences, even if it’s outside their comfort zone.

        The other piece is managing expectations. You’re probably not going to be doing business-changing strategic work off the bat. We’ve lost a couple 20-somethings who were disappointed they didn’t get a manager job when the manager job needed 10+ years of experience plus professional certs they didn’t have.

        1. Scandinavian in Scandinavia*

          Re: expectations, understanding that the purpose of your job is to get work done. I see grads who think that the purpose of the workplace is to develop them and get them ready for the jobs that they would like next. They seem not to understand the needs of the workplace, being all focused on their own desires.

      2. Text Only*

        I firmly believe the day is coming when audible phone conversations will be obsolete. And I can’t wait for it.

    17. Sunflower*

      In general, having them understand that most jobs don’t care how you got the job done(as long as it’s legal/ethical) and it’s a lot of focus on efficiency. Companies tend to have tons of resources but its on the employee to figure out how to use them and ask for training/help. It’s crazy how often I tell people if they don’t know how to do something, google it. Yes, we encourage that kind of stuff!

      Also- at work, it’s on the employee(and so important) for them to keep their boss updated on their successes and what’s going on. Your boss is not going to monitor you. Encourage them to keep a file of achievements and just add to it as they happen. It’s a lot easier than trying to pull together everything when review time comes along.

    18. Queen of the File*

      You mention taking and giving feedback which is great! One aspect of this that I think is important to clarify is to get a sense of when and how much feedback is appropriate in their job. Some students who come from educational environments where there was a lot of welcome, lively debate and open challenging of ideas don’t react well when they find out the workplace doesn’t necessarily operate that way.

    19. Fake Old Converse Shoes (not in the US)*

      Dress codes. I’ve seen a lot of college juniors with severe cases of wardrobe malfunctions (micro shorts that barely cover their butts, smelly armpits, bikinis, yoga pants, flashy underwear) that aren’t acceptable in a professional, non-academical setting.

    20. Alton*

      Some things I think are helpful at work that people don’t always pick up in school are turning in polished work, paying attention to detail without being prompted, and knowing when to ask for clarification. A lot of class assignments are very spelled-out: “Write a five-page paper in 12pt Times New Roman font with at least four secondary sources,” for example. Requests at work can be more vague or lack concrete steps.

      I’ve found when working with student interns that sometimes they’ll do things like compile some information like I asked, but the formatting will be messy. Or you can tell they aren’t used to the copier/scanner because they scan documents upside down, and I have to flip the image or PDF. They’re usually minor things, and I don’t blame the students for not thinking of them, but I think I think this is an area where an instructor’s expectations and a boss’s expectations can be different. For an instructor, guiding students through new tasks is a regular part of the job. Supervisors may not always think of this stuff, and the ultimate goal is for employees to be reasonably self-sufficient.

    21. Fake Old Converse Shoes (not in the US)*

      Also, estimation. It’s a key skill that nobody teaches you.

    22. Hamburke*

      This is very not enviro sci related but how to fill out an I9, W4 and whatever state tax form required (VA4 in Virginia). I receive these and 90% of the time have to send them back due to errors. The I-9 is picky about a few things on the employee side (dates use a 4 digit years, you need to say if you did or did not use assistance – they basically are going towards being able to use OCR to scan into e-verify), but pretty simple if you just read it. Tax withholdings forms are more complicated bc theres no right answer (there are wrong ones!) but you can’t claim 4 and exempt (or double exempt and 1 on the VA4!).

      1. Katefish*

        My best teacher in law school took us to court. That particular court visit sparked my interest so much I currently practice that same type of law. Particularly for older kids, I think getting out there and shadowing a job is life changing.

    23. Anon100*

      Hi fellow environmental science person! Things I wish someone would have told me before I entered the workforce:

      – you will be doing grunt work for a while. This includes filing/scanning/copying papers on rainy days; going out into the field and digging and transporting samples to the lab, because all your superiors have better things to do (aka write the reports and handle irate clients); wrangle Excel tables with data over and over again until your maanger is finally satisfied; will possibly have a lot of downtime in Jan/Feb if your work is field-based and the ground is frozen.

      – most of you will NOT be saving the world/making life-changing decisions right from the start. you might be involved in the process, but if you’re government or consulting, things take a while to get off the ground.

      – always be prepared to take notes. notes on how your manager wants specifically done, notes during meetings/seminars, etc. preferably notes on paper, not your phone. many of your older bosses will still think that typing on your phone for notes is you not paying attention.

      – learn how to write straightforwardly. science writing is stating facts and making a conclusion. don’t try to be fancy with jargon and phrasing. (i will note this advice does not apply if you’re doing pure research and need to submit papers to a peer-reviewed journal.)

      – if in government, consulting, business, learn your state regulations forwards and backwards. state regulators sometimes can be fickle, but if you know the regs, it helps a lot!

      – when to pick up the phone and when to reply to an email. look, i understand that many kids these days have grown up with emails and chats. heck, even i’m not that old (early 30s)! but many of your superiors/bosses/clients will be 20+ years older than you, and they will prefer a quick 5 min chat over a long email explanation. or you can call them first, then send an email summary about the call. also, please learn how to introduce yourself over the phone. “hello, this is Jane Smith from XYZ Company, calling about Z subject.” i am surprised by how many new college grads i see that don’t know this anymore.

      – business forms of address for formal letters. “Dear Mr./Ms.” “To Whom It May Concern”. how to format a letter! do they even teach this in primary/secondary schools anymore?

      and finally.

      – ALWAYS ASSUME YOUR WORK EMAIL OR ANY FINAL WRITTEN DOCUMENT WILL BE SUBPOENAED AT ANYTIME. Be professional and courteous in your emails, “please” and “thanks” go a long way. You can definitely reply a curt “yes” to an email, but don’t reply “f*ck yes” even in an internal email.

  7. Recommendation tips?*

    I need a letter of recommendation from my boss for a conference I’m interested in attending, he wants me to write it and he’ll sign it. Any tips on where to start on writing your own LOR?

    2. Seeking Second Childhood*

      When this happened to me, I drafted a letter to my boss explaining the business need as “why you should send me.” And then I rewrote it as “why the company should send her”. I sent her an editable file, she made some corrections, and then she sent it upstairs. Good luck!

      1. CM*

        +1 I think they key thing is to frame it in your mind as “I need to explain why it makes sense to send me to this conference” and not “I need to explain why I deserve a reward.” So, focus on why it’s relevant to your job and how it will benefit everyone for you to attend (saying you have a plan to share what you learn with your coworkers can be a big plus).

        1. Seeking Second Childhood*

          Yes – Business need/justification is key. “Because this office will be more productive if we have someone get trained in the latest Llama wrangling skills who will then share those skills with their co-workers.”

    3. M*

      Write it as if you were writing a letter of recommendation for your imaginary colleague with a curiously identical CV and work ethic to you. It’ll help you get over the awkwardness of it, and the instinct not to brag. You can always go back and fine tune it, but the hardest part is just getting it on paper in the first place.

      1. SarahKay*

        And on the note of “the hardest part is just getting it on paper in the first place” I find it often helps to start on the second paragraph first, and then come back to the introductory paragraph at the very end.
        I find that if I don’t do that my brain spends forever trying to find the perfect starting sentence, despite having lots of excellent ideas about the middle bit. By starting mid-flow I get down on paper the stuff I do have confidence on instead of procrastinating while I try to work out how to start. Even better, by the time I’ve got to the end then that first paragraph often almost writes itself.
        Good luck!

    4. Artemesia*

      Identify the business need that your attending this conference will help meet and not the kind of work you do related to the conference. The tone is ‘sending Debbie to this conference will help the department achieve more productivity in X which is a major part of her focus.’ Don’t overcomplicate it but focus on benefit to the company.

    5. Nesprin*

      A good LOR will be >1 page, specific, focused on your achievements with no discussion of your weaknesses. So, write up your accomplishments and detail why going to this conference will help your career
      One thing that may be relevant is gender issues- LOR for women often focus on stereotypically female traits such as empathy and caring, which tends to detract. I run all the letters I write through this: https://www.tomforth.co.uk/genderbias/

  8. Toxic waste*

    In toxic environments: How do you know if your boss is micromanaging or if they’re trying to get you to quit? Or both?

    Old (awesome) boss retired and new boss is on a warpath. New boss tells my coworker and myself how she used to do our job and how we’re doing moving too slow and not as fast as her.

    A few weeks ago, new boss told me that I’m doing a great job, and how she’ll promote me and take me to a training seminar. Then out of nowhere yesterday, she told me how she doesn’t think I can handle the work, how she doesn’t want to “overwhelm” me and how she doesn’t think I’m interested, etc.

    She assigns work saying, “This should take X hours to work on.” When I asked what is was based on, it is based on how long it takes her to complete it she said.

    New boss comments on what I eat/goes through my garbage, that my desk is “too messy”, and that I’m not “social enough” and then yells at me for talking when I do talk.

    I feel like I should be ramping up the job search either way, even if my job is safe, I don’t want to work in this kind of environment. It seems like a popularity contest and if they don’t like you personally, you’re in trouble; they won’t promote you, they exclude you socially, etc.

    Does anyone have any feedback/similar experiences?

    1. Violent Femme*

      It sounds like an unwinnable situation and I would just start looking. While I think you could certainly attempt to have a productive conversation with your boss when she criticizes your work or work area or work style — it also sounds like she’s just going to say whatever will work for the moment she’s in. I worked in a toxic environment and while it can be managed, it can also really mess with your head. So I highly recommend you work on getting out and just do your best while you look.

      My experience at my toxic job was after a regime change. We got a new VP. My director then promptly told me I was horrible at my job after 4 years of perfectly good performance. I was never told I was terrible until my review (6 months later). I was never reprimanded for a specific instance of terribleness until my review. I even looked through my personal file to see if there was anything documented that I might have missed. They unleashed the hounds during my review and gave me literally the lowest grade they could and put me on a PIP. It was rough. But, it was also a beautiful day when I gave notice.

    2. Ama*

      I absolutely think you need to be looking for something else, that sounds awful.

      In my experience, if a bad boss is somewhat predictable you can usually develop some workarounds and coping strategies to handle things (for example when I had a boss who changed his mind all the time and then denied doing it, I made sure I got all his instructions in email so when he tried the “why did you do it that way?” thing I could forward him his previous instructions to do it exactly that way). But your boss sounds completely unpredictable, invasive, and clearly has days when she’s just going to be mad at you just for existing. I’d start looking and get out asap.

      By the way, this is not a *you* thing, she would probably do this to anyone who isn’t capable of reading her mind, and it probably also is a sign of her own insecurity in her own job. I was lucky in that right as I was realizing my new boss was like what you describe she quit — and it turned out her paranoia and mercurial moods were because she had gotten completely overwhelmed by her own job and done several questionable things with the department’s finances that she knew she couldn’t hide forever. But I wouldn’t count on getting that lucky.

      1. Artemesia*

        It is sometimes hard to sort out the you and them in this sort of situation. Just because a person has ‘been perfectly fine for years’ doesn’t mean they were. They may just have had a terrible boss who let incompetence prevail because they never confronted or managed. And now FINALLY there is a boss who can manage the weak links out and one of those is you. We read all the time here about long term employees who are allowed to be substandard for years. OR maybe the person is a loon with a personal agenda and it is about forcing out people in order to bring in their own favorites. It is hard when you are sitting there in that seat to know how much of each of these is true. The blue in the OP’s message is the rooting through trash, criticizing what she eats and just general weirdness. It is probably mostly her.

        1. EinJungerLudendorff*

          You can determine that to some extent, simply by looking at the behaviour and performance of the manager.

          If they show clear personal grudges, don’t communicate properly, are inconsistent in their judgements and evaluations, cross all sorts of personal boundaries, or can’t back up their decisions, then chances are pretty good the boss is the problem.

    3. WellRed*

      Your boss has issues that go beyond terrible boss issues. When someone is at the point where they not only contradict themselves constantly (Be more social! Don’t socialize!) but is GOING THROUGH YOUR GARBAGE all you can do is make an escape plan. The micromanaging of how long it takes to do something is not the big problem here.

    4. The Man, Becky Lynch*

      The only boss I had that had similar traits as the one you’re describing was a lunatic who would keep on going lists on everyone’s errors or what he perceived to be “issues”, then when he got angry enough towards an employee he would “write them up” or fire them if they weren’t high enough on the food chain for him to bother with the write-up stage.

      This isn’t normal functional boss level, it’s absolutely grotesque and bad for your health. I hope you find something ASAP!

    5. CM*

      She’s definitely not trying to make you quit. She enjoys being a jerk to you, so it wouldn’t serve her interests if you left.

      If the only issue was that she expected you to do everything the way she’d done it or was frustrated that you were working slower, I’d say she’s an inexperienced manager and, while that’s not the best, she might grow out of it if you’re patient and honest with her about how it’s affecting you.

      However, based on the other things you describe, it sounds like she’s a bully. And the thing to understand about bullies is that their objective is never to have a peaceful relationship with you — their objective is to find things to bully you about. So, even if you did everything exactly the way she says she wants you to, it wouldn’t matter — she’d find a way to bully you for that instead. Bullies want to bully — they don’t want to stop bullying.

      Your best bet long term is to bail but, while you’re still stuck there, my advice is to let go of the idea that you can ever “win” this game or convince her to treat you with respect. She’s going to be a jerk no matter what, and that’s on her, not you.

      1. Triplestep*

        Agree with everything here. You can’t win, do the best you can and ramp up your job search.

    6. AvonLady Barksdale*

      I once worked for a man who would forget everything he ever promised, then treat you like garbage when you reminded him. “I’ll work on this part of the report,” followed by, “Where is this report?” “You said you would do it.” “I never said that! If I did, then that’s too bad, because you’ll have to do it now.” That was some of the worst of it, in addition to telling us all one day we were brilliant and the next we were all idiots. The other stuff was:

      – “Don’t work on airplanes, I want you to use travel time to think.”/”You need to get this done on the plane on the way home.”
      – “Let’s meet all morning about this, break for half an hour, then meet about something else.”/”Why isn’t this done yet?”
      – “Let me know when you’re drowning or need assistance, we’re here to help.”/”You should be able to handle this, I’m not helping you.”
      – “No one should be on more than three projects at any given time.”/”You need to be on this project, I don’t care that it’s the 12th one you’re working on now, get it done.”

      This was exhausting. It was infuriating. It trashed my self-esteem. The company kind of fell apart two years after I left and he’s STILL trying to be the BIGGEST AND THE BEST, yet he hasn’t learned why he retains no one. I left with nothing lined up, luckily they gave me severance (they wanted me out too) and I found a decent job four months later.

      Best of luck!

    7. Me*

      Sometimes the motivation matters. There are people that if you know what makes them tick, you can manage up.

      This? This sounds like one of those times where it doesn’t matter. You have a boss that plays mind games and moves goal posts. Probably because it makes her feel powerful.

      Run.

    8. Michaela Westen*

      My experience with people who flip what they’re saying like that – one day you’re awesome, the next day you’re incompetent, etc. – is that it’s not about you or the work, it’s about their need to control and abuse.
      So no matter what you do, they will try to twist it to fit their need to keep you under control.
      That “doesn’t think you’re interested”… my verbally abusive father did that. He would mention doing something good and then deny it because I “didn’t seem interested/enthusiastic/happy”. Like I could show any emotion around him without getting punished. It was just another way to manipulate me.
      I also worked for a very toxic woman who did some of these things. I’ve never seen anyone go as far out of their way to hurt people as she did.

    9. lnelson in Tysons*

      The boss sounds like a micromanaging nut job.
      Accept that you will never be able to do anything right and find yourself a new job.

    10. Probably Nerdy*

      I would say, when they give you extra hoops to jump through, is when they are trying to get you to quit.

      I had a situation where my boss forgot to give me funding for my labor, and then blamed me for not “reminding” him, and then set a rule that I had to check in multiple times per pay period to make sure I’m on track with my labor hours.

      I put in notice the next day.

    11. MissDisplaced*

      It sounds like your boss is just a whack job. I don’t know if she’s really trying to get you to quit (possible she has her own pressures), but you can’t win with people like this unless you have nerves of steel and an incredible amount of professional capital to come out on top. I would start looking for a new job.

    13. Lilysparrow*

      Your boss isnt a micromanager, she’s a crazymaker, and it doesn’t really matter whether she’s doing it on purpose or not.

      Definitely be looking! As far as survival in the interim, I have had some success in making myself less interesting to crazymakers by:

      1) Never, ever, show any emotional reaction to anything they say, good or bad. They seek out emotional energy to feed on. Cultivate – with white knuckles, if necessary, a constant demeanor of pleasant, low-key cheerfulness and team-spiritedness that is skin deep.

      She compliments you? “Thanks, that’s great.” She criticizes you? “Oh, okay.” Bland, bland, bland.

      2) Take every instruction literally, document it. Keep a notebook with you and let her see you write it down. If it’s a longer detailed conversation, type it up and email it to her “to confirm what we discussed”. Follow these instructions meticulously and absolutely literally. When she contradicts herself, ask for clarification with notes in hand. “Cercei, can you give me some clarification? On Wednesday you said that all teapot handles should face left. Today you said they should all face right. Is right-facing the new standard, or should we be rotating them on a schedule?”

      She won’t stop being this way. And she won’t like you any better. But she will likely move her primary attention on to juicier targets who feed her more of the sweet, sweet bewilderment and frustration that she craves.

      1. Kat in VA*

        Yes to all of this. There’s a certain tremendous amount of satisfaction in Gray Rocking someone who is hellbent on making you crazy.

        (More on Gray Rocking if you are interested: https://www.purewow.com/wellness/gray-rock-method )

        Be warned – initially, using the Gray Rock method of being absolutely boring and uninteresting will cause some jerks to really really amp up their jerkiness. They tend to get bored and move on to someone else (which sucks but then at least they’re not concentrating the jerkiness on you).

    14. WalkedInYourShoes*

      I am going through it right now, too. I come to realization. This person and the boss who I have to work with right now is a micro-manager, manipulator and a terrible leader and manager. So, I started looking in the past month. I am interviewing.

      But remember to be aware of your next role and manager. You don’t want to jump from the frying and into the fire. For example, I was at an interview on Tue., and asked the c-level big boss about his management style, the person responded, “I don’t care if people like me or not. I expect people to come into work as if they are going to be fired that day.” Then, I knew that this was not to be my next job and politely gave the feedback to the recruiter and withdrew myself from the interview process. So, keep applying, because there are companies that will appreciate you and what you have to offer.

  9. cammot*

    For an exit interview, is it OK to say that you are accepting another job because it offers better pay and benefits? That is the main reason why I started looking in the first place. But I wonder if going with another story — the new position will allow for growth in certain skillsets — is better. My goal is to keep relations positive with the former employer.

    1. Four lights*

      I’m not involved in HR at all, but I think this is what exit interviews are for. If all the employees that leave say they’re doing it for better benefits, then they know they’re going to have to review their benefits package in order to retain people.

    2. Foreign Octopus*

      I would say that’s fine. It’s honest and to the point. You’re not bashing your current company but you are pointing out that maybe they’re not paying enough.

    3. S-Mart*

      I think that citing the pay and benefits is perfectly reasonable. It’s probably one of the most benign reasons to leave.

      1. MicroManaged*

        Yup, my coworker just left and cited pay and proximity (she had an hour + commute here) and that went over really well with our boss. I’m a little annoyed because she and I shared some much larger issues with management, but ultimately it’s fair that her priority was to maintain a positive reference rather than to help our manager improve.

    5. Fortitude Jones*

      Nope – I’ve always said this in exit interviews. Stating facts unemotionally should not be an issue, and who knows – you may be the 50th person to leave who said the same thing, which could in turn make them re-evaluate their pay bands and benefits for current and future employees.

    6. Seeking Second Childhood*

      Be honest about that – it’ll benefit your soon-to-be-former co-workers. You’re not interviewing, you’re explaining a done-deal. Many years ago a co-worker told HR she was leaving because of 3 day/week telecommute and a significant raise. HR said “How much?” She said x%. HR deflated and said “Oh, we can’t match that …” And turned around and set up 2-day/week telecommute for my department. We all thanked our former co-worker.

      1. Marion Ravenwood*

        Same thing happened to me at my exit interview for my last job. The salary for my new job was around 15% more, and HR said, ‘yeah, sorry, no way can we match that’ (it was a charity and finances were not terrible, but they were very tight).

        As others have said, if they’re hearing this from several people, it might be a wake-up call on what they need to do to retain staff. So I’d say it’s perfectly fine to give pay and benefits as your reason for leaving, although you could add the skills thing as well (if it’s true).

        1. Beatrice*

          Yep! A few years ago, my company lost a few key people in my field to better paying jobs, which prompted them to do some benchmarking and raise salaries and revamp job titles for all jobs in my field. The job title I originally held was used as a catch-all for a really wide range of responsibility levels, and it was split into three separate job new titles…I got the highest of the 3 and an 11% pay bump.

        2. Aly_b*

          As a middle manager, I could use a pattern of this to advocate up the chain that we need to match pay and benefits to industry norms. It can help your coworkers and future hires. Also it’s true and not remotely offensive – people work for pay, that’s the deal.

    7. straws*

      I would absolutely want to hear this in an exit interview. While I may not be able to immediately turn around and raise salaries, feedback like this would be extremely helpful in conversations about working on our compensation plans.

    8. Media Monkey*

      i think either should be fine to say. the exit interview is of benefit to the company, not you, so any info they get should be useful.

    9. Not One of the Bronte Sisters*

      I think that’s fine. It’s likely that they’ve been told before that their pay and benefits are low. But if you want things to remain positive with the former employer, be sure to mention how you’ve grown professionally during your time there–acquired new skills, got a chance to work on projects you’d never been exposed to before, etc.

    10. lnelson in Tysons*

      As an HR person who has done exit interviews, I do like to hear the reasons. I’m nosy.
      If 90% of the people say that they are leaving for better pay, management might do something about it. (or not)
      If people start leaving because of one manager, TPTB might do something about it. Again or not. But if there is something HR can do, they will.
      I have also used that exit interview to make sure that the employee understands COBRA options and what they need to do to rollover their 401k (US person here).
      Only one person said to me. Don’t bother asking why I am leaving, nothing will ever change. I respected his wishes and just took care of the various housekeeping.

    11. MissDisplaced*

      Well, who wouldn’t want to leave for more pay and better benefits? TOTALLY NORMAL!
      And if that is the main reason, I would say so. HR should know they’re under-market.

    12. Marthooh*

      Your employer will probably not get mad at you for preferring better pay and benefits. If they do, though, then there’s no way to stay on good terms with them. People who are that unreasonable can’t be trusted, no matter what you say.

  10. Susan K*

    The letter this week about the manager who complained about not getting enough praise from his subordinates reminded me of a question that I have been pondering for some time: if you actually want to praise your manager, how should you do it?

    I really like my manager. He is generally a great person — super nice and approachable. I worked with him in the past as a peer, so I know him pretty well. I have had over 20 managers in my career and he is in the top three. He makes me feel like we are on the same team and he’s there to help me succeed. I can count on him to keep his word and come through on his promises. He’s given me a lot of opportunities for professional development by allowing me to attend (sometimes expensive) training and conferences. He’s not perfect, but, you know, nobody is, and he’s closer than most.

    I think that working for him has made me a better employee and even a nicer person. I am in a high-stress industry, but I have felt noticeably less stressed since he became my manager, and in turn, I think I have been able to be nicer to other people just because I am generally in a better mood. I also feel like he understands me. I’m not sure if he is just really good at reading people or what, but there are times when it seems like he knows me better than my own family.

    He is a very social and extraverted person (I am the opposite, by the way) and I think it would mean something to him to know that I think he is awesome. He tells me often that I am doing a great job, so I think he feels that it is important to express that verbally. I thank him for specific things when appropriate and sometimes add, “You’re the best!” but I don’t think that quite covers it. I kind of want to tell him basically everything I just wrote, about how I think he is one of the best managers I’ve ever had and I appreciate everything he does and that he is doing a great job, but if I just blurt it out randomly, I think it could be weird and awkward and maybe sound insincere. I feel as though I need to be careful of the timing; I don’t want to say it right before I ask for something or right after he has done something for me (for example, I thought about saying it at my performance review, but he gave me a glowing review and a nice raise, so I didn’t want him to think I was only saying it because of that). I don’t want to wait until he gets promoted and write it on his goodbye card, though!

    1. Nervous Accountant*

      I feel that way about my manager. I know it’s frowned upon here but “Boss’s day” was a few months ago so I got a card and got a few team members (who I know feel the same way) to sign it. If it’s not awkward, maybe a small gift and a note with your sentiments?

    2. Yorick*

      You can write him a note if saying it in person seems too awkward. I have cards from former students that are really special to me.

    3. Camellia*

      Does your company do regular evaluations? If so, I think it would be great to send an email to your boss’s boss saying that, at the time when we are all thinking about evals, you wanted to say [all the good things] about your boss. I would also CC your boss on it, just in case his boss didn’t share it for whatever reason.

      If your company doesn’t do regular evals, or annual ones are already done, you could still find another “reason” that would “prompt you” to send the email – Boss’s Day, your boss’s birthday, or some such.

      Sending it to your boss’s boss removes the ‘weird’ factor and makes it just something you wanted to professionally share.

      1. MayLou*

        Oh, I really like this idea – I agree it might remove the awkwardness and also it could have a tangible benefit to the manager if it contributed to a positive review.

      2. MissDisplaced*

        Some companies have an electronic system to reward anyone by anyone. If you have that, you can send those for several topics, such as: job well done, thank you, kudos, teamwork, appreciation, etc.

        I think is IS important for manager’s managers to know when they have a good manager. Of course there are metrics such as meeting goals, but so often it is the people skills that matter more.

    4. Nessun*

      We have a formal process for yearly/mid-year reviews, and it includes the opportunity to ask direct reports for feedback. I always utilize it myself, to allow my group to tell me how I’m doing in supporting their growth and needs. I use the same form to provide feedback to my supervisor & boss. Without that process in place, I’d choose to say it in the moment (which I also do) – eg. when an opportunity arises for learning and my boss is supportive of me going, offers time off or to help with costs, I’ll say thanks for supporting me and showing that you value my ongoing learning, I appreciate your encouragement. Stuff like that. It doesn’t have to be effusive, just relevant to the conversation and genuinely meant.

    5. Aunt Vixen*

      Is your organization of a sufficient size that you can deliver praise for your manager to his own manager? I guess that might not necessarily accomplish letting *him* know you think he’s awesome, so maybe I should suggest doing that in addition to finding a way to let him know personally. [ponder]

    6. Ama*

      Because of the way my employer (and my boss) handle performance reviews (where we are asked to write down how we think our own performance and the organization’s performance at large went that year and where there are opportunities to improve) I often take the opportunity to offer any positive comments and/or thanks at that point. For example, one year I had a bunch of horrible things happen in my personal life and my boss was super great in giving me time and extra flexibility to deal with the aftermath, so in my review that year I wrote that I really appreciated her support in helping me succeed at work despite the extra challenges I was going through personally.

      But we turn in our forms prior to getting our manager’s comments in the actual review meeting so there’s no risk of it seeming like just a response to a good performance review.

    7. Artemesia*

      This is one of those things you can say if you are having lunch with him or a one on one review of your work i.e. where you have his attention and are interacting. It is also something you can put in a Christmas or New Year’s card or a boss’s day card (although the very idea of boss’s day makes my skin crawl)

      1. Mr. Tyzik*

        I also like to give timely feedback to my manager, so when I have a conversation, I thank her for something – being open to my ideas and hearing me out, giving me an opportunity to test something, or even just thanking her for her honest feedback. You may find some opportunities to do this as well.

        As for how to say it, I try to not make it a big deal, but just close the call with something like, “By the way, thanks for ….” whatever I’m thanking her for.

    8. The Phleb*

      I’ve actually done this! What I did was to send a thank you email to both my supervisor and their supervisor. My current supervisor is amazing and really supports us so well that I will do this several times a year (with various comments). I want to be sure not only does she know how much I appreciate the hard work she does, but I want her supervisor to know how valuable my supervisor is and how her team thinks so highly of her. Just as it’s important to you to receive kudos…it’s important to them as well!

    9. Bostonian*

      Yeah, I’ve started making it a point after my annual review to let my boss know how much I appreciate her/enjoy working with her/the ways in which she’s helped and supported me. The key is to be specific about the kinds of things the boss did and how that helped you.

      You don’t have to wait for something formal like a review, though! That’s just what works with me because I’m already in a reflective mindset. You can definitely let him know in the moment when you see your boss handle a tough situation in a graceful way.

    11. Not A Morning Person*

      You wrote your appreciation message! All the things you said in your post about what makes you appreciate him as your boss are things you can write in a card or letter and give to him. Those are things bosses don’t often hear and it is good to reinforce those things that you appreciate! What gets acknowledged and appreciated gets repeated! Show him that you appreciate those things. He will feel very lucky to have you as an employee!

    12. Kat*

      I would suggest just being authentic about any compliments you have about your boss when you have them. And nothing wrong with saying it during performance reviews! I’ve said stuff to my boss during mine and my staff have said stuff to me during theirs.

      I’ve given and received positive feedback through email, phone calls, after team meetings or meetings to discuss potential issues, during regular 1:1 workplanning meetings, performance reviews, etc.

      Remember, your boss is a regular person just like you. You’d probably like it if you got positive feedback in the moment as much as possible and so would they!

    13. ManageHer*

      As a manager, it can often be a pretty thankless job – thank you for wanting to share with your boss how much his management means to you. Personally, I’ve really appreciated getting that sort of feedback:
      *In email or formal review feedback to my boss during review time.
      *At larger orgs that have them, nominations for management awards (winning a department award for staff management is the highlight of my career so far).
      *Letting me know in a check-in or via email when I do something especially meaningful (supporting staff through a big project or helping them sort out a complicated process).
      *Holiday cards used as an excuse to write a nice note.
      *Being approached for recommendation letters for grad school, or for non-perfunctory professional advice is also a nice back-end way for me to feel like my staff enjoy working with me.

    14. Celia*

      Does your company or industry offer any kind of award for excellence? You could nominate him for it. This often requires a written statement where you could include the details you’ve given here. These awards may just be a certificate or luncheon (as opposed to cash), but they can also really help people in their careers, depending on the field.

    15. SC in NC*

      This doesn’t have to be complicated. As someone who has both given and received this type of feedback, I’ve found that any time during a one on one conversation works fine. When I’ve seen it work best is at the end of whatever normal work you were discussing is complete or have the conversation before you start on other subjects. You don’t want to just blurt it out.

      Also, temper what you’re saying to be realistic, give specific or semi-specific examples and follow through with your message. It’s very easy for a boss to brush off praise or thanks from an employee with a “I’m just doing my job” response. It’s not that they don’t appreciate the sentiment but good bosses probably really do see it as their job. I’ve had employees stop me when I’ve had that type of response to follow-up with a “I know it’s part of your job but I want you to know …..”. In other words make sure they really hear the message and it’s meaning.

    16. A Reader*

      Susan K, I am so happy you brought up this topic! My manager is great, too, and I’ve been wondering how to thank him.

      I like the ideas noted in this thread, and will likely steal a few. :)

      Just don’t do what one of my coworkers did, where they thanked our boss in an online area that is open to our team. So we all saw how much they think of our boss, and TBH, it came across as butt-kissing. This person has a history of doing things like this, so when I saw the note, I just rolled my eyes. It’s great to let the boss know how much they mean to you, but I also think letting it be known to other members of your team feels kind of weird.

  11. CMart*

    IT people – database and systems folk – can you help me help your counterparts at my work?

    Every month my team (finance) reviews the data flowing into our management and reporting system to see if anything looks off (eg: whole herds of llamas coded with no fur, small llamas showing sales price of $1M when they’re usually only $500 etc…). I’m the point of contact between finance and IT to let the database/systems people know that we’re seeing issues.

    Every month it feels like I’m just slamming my head into a brick wall while my IT team point fingers at each other, do nothing, and then ask me to pinpoint the source of the issues/tell them how to fix it. My understanding of this relationship is that I don’t know anything about the flow of our data and systems (okay not nothing, but a 30,000ft view at best) and I’m just the end-user flagging that things are amiss within the systems they manage. That it’s their job to do root cause analysis, find the source of the issues, and figure out how to fix it.

    So every month there’s a lot of bickering, me saying “all I know is there’s 15 llamas whose serial numbers say they’re brown but the description says they’re chartreuse – they should be brown” and ultimately being told we need to make a manual entry to just change whatever it is we need to change.

    So nothing ever gets fixed, we have the same rotating issues month after month and I dread the week every month I have to go through this circus. I’m rounding out a year of this aggravation, and my manager has been dealing with this for several more and is even crabbier about it than I am.

    Is this a mismatch in expectations and how finance vs IT people go about problem solving? Am I maybe misunderstanding my role here and could be more helpful? Or am I misunderstanding what the role of IT is here? What could I be doing or saying to get my IT team to actually fix the issues instead of spending our daily meetings arguing about what the problem might be and who should have informed who about process breakdowns etc…?

    1. seasonal allegories*

      If there’s data entry errors, it’s on the people entering data to fix it. If there’s problems in how the data is returned (like it’s being entered as brown, but somehow the entries get mixed up in the system and assigns “brown” to the wrong place), then that’s something for IT to fix. If the data is correct at the source isn’t something IT can control, but they can definitely control (and need to trouble-shoot) if it somehow gets messed up once it’s been put into the system.

      1. CMart*

        Yes, most often it’s a systems (not) communicating with each other/ a load error or something.

        Sometimes it’s a data entry error, but I still would have no idea myself where or how to track that down. I don’t know where the sources are — am I off base in thinking that’s what the tech folk are for? Tracking down the source and telling the source to fix their stuff?

      2. Yorick*

        It is IT’s job to help track down those data entry errors and help them fix their process, though

        1. seasonal allegories*

          It is IT’s job to help track down those data entry errors and help them fix their process, though

          Not in my org. If someone enters 80 instead of 90, that’s not IT’s problem to fix. Process improvement in someone else’s department is not something the database folks do.

          1. CMart*

            So let’s say this is the scenario:

            Data entry drone: enters 80 instead of 90
            Invoice goes into system
            Invoicing system transfers to management system
            I pull this month’s information and thing “80? Shouldn’t that be 90? What happened?”

            So I tell IT “I have a llama coded as 80 but all of its attributes should be code 90”

            What are the next steps? IT says “looks like a data entry error” and…. I’m SOL? I don’t know where the data originated, but they do. I don’t know who to talk to, but they do. Whose job is it to then say “Hey Data Drone Department – you had an input error, please fix”?

            1. seasonal allegories*

              The next step is you go to the data entry drone and work with them on their inputs. If you don’t know who that is, that’s your next step: tracing who puts data in and where they get THEIR data from.

              Whose job is it to then say “Hey Data Drone Department – you had an input error, please fix”?

              I don’t know your chain. In my chain, we’d find out which department is meant to be putting in info and have our leadership tell their leadership that data errors have been cropping up and we should have a meeting between the people who put the data in and the people who use it. There’s probably training on the system that is needed. But this is done by the people who own using the system, not the people who own writing the nuts and bolts.

              I don’t know what kind of a system you’re in, in ours, if there’s a problem with the data in X Location, we know how to get in touch with the supervisor in X Location and say “your data is wrong”.

              1. CM*

                +1 It sounds like no one in this situation is being super helpful about talking through the problem but this is how I would go about trying to solve it (if it is, indeed, a data entry error).

            2. seasonal allegories*

              But just in general, validating that your data is the same coming in as going out is IT’s problem. Validating that the data is correctly what happened? That’s the people who put it in and the people who use the data. My IT department is not staffed at all to track down issues with what the data actually says. They only care if System A’s data gets turned into mush when it comes into System B.

              1. CMart*

                Yeah, I think my asking about the 80/90 coding error was a red herring! Most of our issues every month are a System A to B mush thing. Usually because there are automatic processes in place that then don’t recognize a unique situation (that’s not so terribly unique as it happens every month – granted on a scale of 3 llamas out of the 15,000 entered into the system, but still there’s those 3 every time).

            3. BadWolf*

              I would say it’s ITs job to give you information on who entered the bad information (assuming they have some sort of logging or audits, if not, then it would be there job to add auditing), but I would not expect IT to tell that person to tell the data entry person they are wrong (unless the data entry people are part of the IT group).

            4. Observer*

              You have two things:

              1. Where did that data come from. You need to explicitly ask “Which department puts that data in?”

              2. Tell Drone department that these error keep happening – That’s totally your job, not IT.

          2. Alice*

            So who does the process improvement? Is each department supposed to figure it out for themselves?
            I mean, if there’s a dedicated team separate from the database folks (although I note that “database folks” is presumably one part among many in the IT department), great. But if there were a dedicated process improvement team in CMart’s organization, she would have heard about it by now.

            1. seasonal allegories*

              As someone who used to work in process improvement and quality, a lot of people didn’t know about us! ;) But in general, it’s a specific skillset you need for resolving these kind of human problems. If IT isn’t staffed for it or hiring for it, I wouldn’t be shocked. This is human stuff between the departments affected by data entry problems. IT is just the system they’re using; the problems are elsewhere.

            2. Admin of Sys*

              IT can’t do the process improvement if they can’t implement process changes, so yeah, it usually ends up being each department’s responsibility. If the IT team confirms that the issue is with the data entry, then they can say ‘the data was entered incorrectly’. At that point, if it’s negatively affecting you, then you can say ‘who enters the data?’ and trace the problem down there. Wanting IT to fix the data entry problem is like trying to get the phone company to stop people from calling you because they dialed the wrong number.

          3. Yorick*

            That’s not the kind of error I was talking about, so I apologize for the confusion. I meant stuff like this, which is what happens in my agency:

            If the data entry screen for pet grooming says “Hair color” and it needs to be pet’s hair color and the people keep getting confused and putting the client’s hair color, IT can fix that by changing the name of the field.

            If the problem comes from people deleting stuff that shouldn’t be deleted because it makes other data points not make sense, IT can make it impossible to delete.

            1. Yorick*

              My agency has IT staff (think business analysts, not developers) who are supposed to work with business to clean up processes. For what it’s worth, my IT friends who work in other companies tell me IT should be helping me get these problems fixed,

          4. It's Pronounced Bruce*

            Agreed, but you still need to verify the source of the error (user or not), which you’d need IT’s help to do.

          5. Observer*

            Well, it depends. Sometimes it is IT’s place and sometimes not. Like, IT can’t help it if you’re getting invoices that look like a kid with a scissor and a stack of magazines designed it. On the other hand, if you know that your customers always have to be over 21 and can’t be over 150 years old, the IT needs to limit the age range. Or if the price for Lamas is $1m and your most expensive item is usually $100K, it should throw up a REALLY noticeable message that requires at least one step to dismiss.

    2. sparty07*

      I find that when I get data issues that are not resolved after 2-3 iterations you need to escalate via your manager to their manager. Explain how you’ve tried to help identify ways to help them identify the gaps, or that you don’t have the technical knowledge to help them pinpoint the source of the issue (it may be garbage in/garbage out). But as a fellow finance person, having dirty data is the bane of my existence (and not having other departments care about how dirty data is bad for the company as a whole)

      1. CMart*

        “Garbage in garbage out” is such a problem and honestly there’s a lot of garbage in our data. It’s so frustrating when it’s the same “garbage” every month – makes it hard for us to do our analysis and for the higher ups to trust the analysis that we do.

        “There’s a lot of noise in X” is an oft-used phrase that gets massive eye rolls from my great-grand boss but there’s really not much we can do when we don’t control the data.

        1. DataGirl*

          Sounds like my job. I was hired to fix the databases/ data but it’s been a losing battle since no one actually cares about doing things correctly. As for IT, at my org (which is HUGE) the biggest problems are 1) There are way too few IT people to deal with all the issues and 2) No one knows who is in charge of what 3) Some/many of the databases or data entry sources are third party products, so IT can’t make any changes, even if the problem can be identified. Depending on the size of your org and your IT Team, they may be facing similar problems. In your case it does sound like data entry is likely the problem, so can you find out from your manager which department is in charge of that, then contact them to try and track down who is doing the data entry? Maybe see the tool they are using to do it, to identify if it is a problem in the software, like a drop-down menu missing items or having typos?

        2. Iris Eyes*

          Your database people could hypothetically help by putting in some sort of data check. In the color coding example there should be some sort of a flag when entering the data if the code entered and the color entered are incompatible.

          If there are any always/never rules that you can put in the system as flags/warnings or data checkpoints then those are helpful.

          Whoever is in charge of the data entry people can/should be getting reports for any data that is entered that is out of typical range. i.e. deviates from the average for this category by X% or code doesn’t match color etc

          1. BadWolf*

            Yes, IT could put controls in that would stop or flag unexpected data.

            For example, if a field should have a number 1-100, then that could be checked and flagged/stopped if -1 or 150 is entered.

            But if someone enters 70 instead of 50…that’s on the data entry side (usually, unless there’s something that can be automatically cross checked).

            1. CMart*

              Our issues seem to be “Data Entry Drone put in 50, which is what it was supposed to be, into System A. It loaded into System B and now shows 70.”

              And then there’s bickering and after 3 days of e-mails the solution is always “hey Finance, just make an entry to change it to 50” and no resolution or proposed fix for what happened between point A and B. And I’m wondering what I’m missing in that this is the way it is every month. It seems so pointless, and nothing ever actually gets fixed!

              1. LKW*

                The best way to resolve this, truly resolve this is to develop a metric on of how much this is costing the company.

                # times calls to help desk x $$ for end user (how many minutes per case x how many cases)
                # calls to help desk x $$ technical support (how many minutes per case x how many cases)
                # of tickets received per month x hours per case to investigate
                # of tickets received per month x hours of remediation

                extrapolate across a fiscal year what feels like a few issues per month turns in to real money.

                If you then estimate out a small project to investigate where this integration is messing up you may get an ROI within a year or so.

                2. Hillary*

                  Yes this. Also enlist the finance people to help with the metric. No one actually likes doing it this way. I have one database project supported entirely by taking less time to run reports.

                  The other thing to think about is focusing on positivity. It’s easy to feel blamed when someone’s talking about a process failure, so I tend to frame it with a very passive voice and focus a lot on the future. It doesn’t always work, but it often pushes people out of defensiveness and into action faster.

                3. Kat*

                  Yes this!! I’d also add that the point of the report is to allow you to do X (make resource allocation decisions, allocate workloads more fairly, identify bottlenecks, identify problem files, establish priorities, provide accurate and TIMELY updates to mgmt, etc.) and instead what you’re spending your time doing is Y (checking accuracy of reports line by line, looking up data because reports can’t be trusted, creating a different version of the report outside of the IT system [I’ve had to use two sets of oracle reports to create a third more accurate report in Excel!!], making manual overrides and corrections every month, etc.)

                  In my experience if I’m trying to explain to my director what my frustration is I find it helps to keep the focus on “here’s how this report is supposed to help me MANAGE/make STRATEGIC decisions and instead I’m spending all my time doing data entry, reconciliation, manual calculations, creating spreadsheets, etc. which is not what my boss wants me doing AND it prevents me from getting to the other things that are part of my job.

                  I feel like sometimes those removed from working with IT don’t get the reason for our frustration but when you explain it to them that makes them see “I pay you to work as an analyst or manager and instead you’re basically doing data entry and basic troubleshooting that’s such a waste of time and money! I have to talk to IT about this!”

              2. Nicki Name*

                Okay, if the situation is “X was entered into one computer but it comes out of another computer as Y”, and your IT department wrote the software, then you have described an actionable bug. (If they didn’t write the software, then it’s still an actionable bug, but one to work through with the software company.)

              3. Admin of Sys*

                yeah, /that/ sor tof thing definitely needs fixed (and by IT, though it may still require someone spending on unrealistic amount of time entering 47 llamas until the numbers break so they can trace the problem)
                I’d present this as systematic not because of those specific entries but because of the potential for serious issue in a larger scale. If the data is not consistently propagating, fixing the individual entries doesn’t resolve the fact that the data is inaccurate. What happens if the issue causes an inaccuracy that costs the company money? Like a lot of it? Could you model a legit scenario where that would occur? Like, if the invoice should be for $1000 and it’s sometimes saying $100,000, point out it could go the other way, and a customer could argue they got a legit price of $10 and they don’t owe the company the extra if the company software said it was ‘right’? (because no system should ever /rely/ on someone catching the error.)
                Mind you, this is still a matter of scale. If it’s on average 3 orders out of 3,000, well they may have decided .1% is an acceptable failure rate. But even on edge cases, inconsistent data communication can end up costing big, so they should be creating systems to doublecheck it as it goes through.

    3. Dreamboat Annie*

      Did IT write the systems or is it a product, or a hodgepodge? How does the data get into the system- manually, by import, both?

      Actually without knowing the answers, have you talked w your boss about how much time it takes to reconcile, and that there may be inaccurate data coming in causing these issues? *Perhaps* a project could be requested to help improve the data coming in, cleansing earlier in the process, etc.

      1. CMart*

        It’s an invoicing system (well, several invoicing systems across plants) transfer to our management and reporting system. I have zero idea about the origination of the invoicing process. The systems are all pretty old/legacy and are a hodgepodge of internal and external, some new most not. I have sympathy that it’s an aggravating mess trying to get everything to talk to each other.

        My manager is always involved in this too – usually after 2-3 volleys of “hey IT here’s an issue I see”/”hey CMart track down the source and tell us how to fix it”/”hey IT I don’t have the ability to do that please advise”/”hey CMart that’s an Invoice System issue”/”hey IT please talk to them?” he will step in and be more assertive about how we are not supposed to be the problem solvers, just the problem-identifiers. His greatest complaint is that every month he asks for root cause analysis and all we get is “just do a manual submission”. Band-aids on axe wounds.

        1. RandomU...*

          I kind of disagree with your bosses assessment on this. I’ve been on both sides of this fence; IT and business.

          I think that it’s IT’s job to let you know the source of the bad data and to verify it’s not something with their loads and scripts that is causing the problem. It is the business responsibility to address data entry problems.

          My advice, instead of the ‘Hey IT you need to fix this problem’ approach I’d try a different one.

          Hey IT, can we look at the source of where you are pulling this from? Can we review the source data? Once you have that you can confirm if it’s the source data (business) or the scripting/systems (IT).

          In other words, with the systems you describe, you’re probably going to find problems originating from both the business and IT. I would focus on a plan of getting the right people involved to fix the problem rather than focusing on who ‘should’ do it.

          1. CMart*

            I definitely think our core team needs to be expanded. I’ve noticed a lot of the issues keep coming from one particular invoice system and it’s a circus figuring out who should talk to them.

            Usually the management system person will end up doing it and then facilitating the discussion/debating the fix since I/my group don’t know how everything is pieced together. “I see a llama with a serial number indicating brown fur but with a Fur Attribute of chartreuse, it should be brown” is as detailed as I can get. The discussions that ensue involve a lot of system/database jargon that I do not understand, despite having taking a masters-level InfoSystems course.

            That’s really the core behind my thinking that my IT contacts need to be more involved. When Invoice System team says “what went wrong?” I absolutely cannot say “when Load 1 processed the FACT_SET_THING pulled from ThisTable when it should have pulled from ThatTable and it went into Management_Account as Chartreuse. FACT_SET_THING needs to be updated in ThatTable and Load 1 should be rerouted”. What I can say is “but y not brown tho?”

            1. seasonal allegories*

              If you have error messages like that, that’s definitely something to send to IT. Those are useful.

              1. CMart*

                Nah, no error messages. Just me combing through 200k lines of data using various checks to see if anything looks amiss.

            2. Admin of Sys*

              Yeah, but the IT team may not know how everything is interconnected either. It can be possible to track issues down, but usually you have to shadow every department and hope an issue occurs while you’re watching. I once tracked down an inventory application problem that was causing regular issues, but it required me to literally walk through the entire process, from purchasing the inventory, to adding it into the system, to pulling it to manufacturing, to walking through manufacturing, through testing, back through inventory, etc. It took 2 months of tracing every single step of the process to identify where the bug occurred. I could do that because it was an inventory issue, and I was inventory lead. When I found the issue, I was able to go: IT, the database doesn’t properly re-add inventory when the system fails test and is stripped for parts. I had no idea /why/ that happened (At the time). I didn’t know enough about the back end database to have any idea why the parts didn’t get re-added when everything else did, nor did I care. But I was able to say ‘when I do x, y occurs, and y should not occur’. Then IT fixed it.

              Technically, that’s an IT bug, but they would have had very little chance of knowing the process the machines go through to end up in that specific situation, because they didn’t know how the manufacturing line works.

              It’s entirely possible that none of the techs know how to enter an invoice – why would they? They (should) know that when they enter a test invoice, it processes the way that finance says invoices should process. How are they going to know if sales entered the data correctly? They’re not trained on how to enter invoicing data, nor should they be. If the issue is that the invoices have incorrect data and everyone insists that they’re doing the data entry correctly, then someone is going to have to prove the flaw in the process.
              This can be done – but it’s going to require an audit, whether or not it requires a trained auditor. So someone is going to have to spend their time looking over everyone’s shoulder until they figure out that the llamas are showing up as green instead of brown when the sales force enters the serial number on the machine that Bob installed the shareware office product on, because they hate word. Then IT can fix the issue.

    4. RandomU...*

      It sounds like there may be a disconnect.

      You: The end user of the report that you find errors on
      IT: Most likely wrote the code and manages the job that pulls the data from the systems
      Missing piece to the puzzle: Origin of the data- The people who input the information into the system

      There’s an old saying about data “Garbage In = Garbage Out” I think you need IT’s help to find out where the data is coming from, and fix the source.

      1. CMart*

        That’s kind of my issue I think — we go to IT every month and ask “can you find out where this came from/what went wrong?” and they just point fingers/blame the crappy system and don’t act as the intermediary between us (end user about 20 steps removed from the data origination point) and the source. Just “well they messed up, you should do a one-time entry to fix it”.

        1. RandomU...*

          At that point it is on you to go back to the end user organization and let them know that they are doing it wrong and correct it from there. I mentioned above, but will expand here. Instead of lobbing things between you and IT, I’d get them to work with you to correct the source. They shouldn’t necessarily be the intermediary but they can and should help you to work with the other groups you need to.

          1. CMart*

            I’d say 10% of our issues are entry errors and 90% seem to be “systems not talking to each other/load errors”.

            If I’m explaining this poorly it is because I do not know anything about systems, haha. I know the names of the systems, and kind of which direction the data should flow. My “team” that I work with has at least one manager-level representative from all of the systems in question. So when Invoice System 1 loaded things to Management System and the data got garbled inbetween, IS Manager and MS manager argue about whose fault it is and then just turn to Finance and say “just make a manual entry to what it should be”.

            1. RandomU...*

              This is a little different than what I was thinking. Yeah, there’s not going to be an easy answer on this one, and it’s probably going to need to be a fight for your boss.

              Generally speaking the ‘owner’ of the problem in what you described would be the second system. In other words if the IS manager can prove their data is correct and it’s a problem only when loaded into the Mgmt System. Then it’s up to the MS manager to figure out how to get the data loaded correctly.

              The reality, anything and everything can be fixed with enough time and money, but the business has to decide if it’s worth it. The answer might be that it’s more efficient and cost effective for you to continue to manually fix the problems you find.

              1. CMart*

                Yeah… 20 hours of my Peon salary spent on this every month is likely magnitudes cheaper than upgrading and transitioning our MegaCorp systems!

            2. TiffanyAching*

              It sounds to me like there might be some disconnect in expectations of whose responsibility it is to fix these things. If you are thinking IT should be fixing issues, but IT is under the impression you should be fixing things, that could lead to the run-around. It might be worth getting your and their managers involved just to get some clarity around who owns what.

              For the system I manage, when bad data comes it it’s my responsibility to fix the individual data point(s) in my system, and then I let IT know. They are then responsible for trying to figure out why the error happened, and preventing it going forward.

              1. Patty Mayonnaise*

                To me, it sounds like IT knows they are responsible for the problem, but can’t decide amongst themselves what the solution is, so they ask OP to enter more data as a workaround (which does not solve the systemic problem, resulting in this being a problem every month).

        2. Qwerty*

          Can you push for a bigger picture meeting/plan on how to fix the system. Calling it a plan to upgrade or update the system might go over better than “fix”, because it carries less of a blame aspect. Avoid letting anyone focus on blame and instead look to the future about how to improve the system to make it (1) easier to track down data inaccuracies and (2) more reliable integration between the multiple systems.

          I realize that these are mostly tech-related steps, but here’s how I would go about this:
          (1) Document the existing system(s). Get a diagram of how everything is connected
          (2) Improve the logs of the systems so it easier to track the flow of data. This way you could send them a request for all data relating to Order 123 and they could extract those lines from the logs.
          (3) If possible, add Audit tables to the database that track each of the changes to an order, along with who made the change and what system they were using. This will help identify if it is a person or a script/import process which is causing the majority of errors
          (4) Start updating the systems with the most issues. Keep the tasks small and focused so that it is easier to implement. Think in terms of taking small steps to reliably improve the data flow, instead of taking on a mountain of a task all at once and risk it falling apart.

    5. Yorick*

      IT at my job is pretty similar, and I have the same frustrations. They go as far as to realize that it’s the data entry process and not a bug in the coding, and then they don’t care because it’s “not their problem.” And they refuse to build us a database that won’t let people do things so wrong.

      I don’t know what to do about this at all, but I’m interested in hearing what other commenters say.

      1. Nicki Name*

        What kind of refusal is it? Is it “we don’t have the time”? “We don’t have the people”? “We could do that but it’s so far down our priority list that it’s not happening”? For any of those, you are dealing with an under-resourced department and a conversation about getting it done will have to be about other things that won’t get done instead. And maybe management has had that conversation, and decided that priorities will not be adjusted and additional resources will not be provided.

        Is it impossible for technical reasons? Well, just about anything is eventually technically possible if you do enough upgrades, but maybe the needed upgrades are facing the same problems as above.

        OTOH, if the reason is “it’s not our job” or “we don’t see the business case for it”… that can usually be solved by getting upper management sufficiently interested. Though you may find one of the reasons further above hiding under it.

      2. A Non E. Mouse*

        And they refuse to build us a database that won’t let people do things so wrong.

        I know this is going to sound defensive, being in IT, but at least where I work and have worked, IT doesn’t decide what gets built, replaced or upgraded.

        *The Business* does – IT just does the job.

        For example, we complained bitterly for years about our aging network infrastructure, numbers and downtime stats and all. Our end users blamed us for the problem, but *until the business decided to spend money on it*, we couldn’t do anything to resolve it.

        In your case, I would suggest the business owner raise updating the database to not accept errant code as a project. It’s a *business* problem that can be solved with IT help.

    6. Indie*

      Who is entering the data into the system? What you are describing may not necessarily be an IT problem. I have seen very often end users enter the wrong data (especially when it comes to descriptions) and them log it as bug in the system. That being said, the system may be offering way too much freedom and people are just entering whatever looks good at the moment. Or the system can be too restrictive and people are just selecting whatever is the closest to what actually needs to make it in. Or the system can actually have defects in how it’s treating data once it’s inside.
      So if you are facing the exact same problems every month, try first sitting with the people that are actually doing the data entry to figure out which situation it is. If it’s one of the first two, this is not really an IT problem and some training may be needed.

      1. CMart*

        From what I can tell, it’s nearly always a system issue and not a data entry issue. Pretty much everything is automated (pulling attributes and standard costs from serial numbers, sales and discounts from invoice numbers) and then something gets borked in the various iterations of the system loads.

    7. Spouter of Gibberish*

      Request that an IT rep attend your monthly meetings. Develop a relationship with that rep. Identify that rep as a member of your “extended team”. Praise that rep to their supervisor when that rep helps you out.

      All hands, one team.

      1. CMart*

        My monthly meetings are exclusively with the IT reps – manager-level people for each of the different systems involved.

        1. Nicki Name*

          Oh goody, systems with different managers. That’s not always the case. Do they all report to one unified IT super-manager, or are they reporting to their individual plant supervisors?

        2. A Non E. Mouse*

          manager-level people

          Honing in on this – my manager doesn’t have any idea how some of our things work together. Not from disinterest, but from not being in the trenches for a long time.

          Is it possible that the right people just aren’t in the room? Could you ask that the manager bring their “Outdated System X” technical expert with them to the next meeting?

    8. Admin of Sys*

      I think it depends on a few things, including what the actual root cause is. If the furless llamas are created because the people creating the inventory forgot to check fur color – well, technically that might be fixable with code, but said code might be months of implementation and work, where-as the folks entering the inventory learning to check the appropriate fur color box takes 5 minutes. And if you’re presenting them with the issue of ‘the llamas don’t have fur’ and they’re responding with ‘if you delete them and reenter them correctly, they’ll have fur’ then that’s completely legitimate. Mind you, the 3rd time that happens, the response from IT should be ‘we’re going to make it so you have to enter fur color or you can’t submit the llama entry, because this keeps coming back to us.’ (But that assumes they’re capable or making the system do that, which may not be possible if it’s not home-built software)

      It’s also possible that the request for the source of the issue is because they can’t get it to happen in test. If they follow procedure on a test system and can’t get the problem to occur, then the problem may not be in the system. If the application keeps breaking for specific people/things but not other people, an IT tech doesn’t really have much choice other than to ask what that person is doing differently. The techs don’t know how the team is entering the sales data or the inventory or what procedures are being used to audit the fur color entries – they know that if they enter a llama with brown fur, it processes correctly. (note: I am assuming that the techs aren’t the ones generating and adding the data – if they’re uploading the inventory, and half the llamas don’t have fur after the import, then they should be capable of looking at the data source and pinpointing the fur color problem. But if the warehouse is importing the llama data and then coming back to the techs saying there’s missing fur, but insisting the data is valid? Then it’s going to be harder for the techs to figure out what’s wrong with the data.)

      As to them asking you ‘how to fix it’, this may be a request for what you want to focus on.
      If the issue is with the llama fur color, you can a) train your data entry folks b) have the coders to force the llama fur color box to be checked or c) have them spend 3+ months fixing the back end system so it doesn’t require the llama fur color and/or automatically audits said fur color. Mind you, they should be able to give you the root cause, but many IT teams are basically told not to allow people to be the stated problem – so ‘the llamas are chartreuse because that’s how they were entered’ may not be something they can say in your company culture.

      All that said, it’s also possible the problems are with the back-end system, the back-end system is in-house written, and that your IT team either doesn’t know how to troubleshoot things, do quality control and root cause analysis; or that they’re forced to support an app that’s locked down and horribly written.

      But in either case, a fix might be to present the issue a bit differently. It may be useful to go your boss and the IT boss and say “we’re spending x amount of time fixing llama inventory and I feel like that’s not a good use of our time. Can we look at implementing a system to keep the errors from occurring, regardless of how they’re being caused?”.

      1. CMart*

        Thank you for this! It’s good insight to have about the things happening beneath the surface. All I see are my IT contacts going “yep there was an error in our system but Other System borked it somehow. Instead of us figuring out why it happened, you just do a manual entry.” So on the face of it they just look petulant and like they don’t want to actually do work. But I also don’t know how any of the systems work really! What seems simple and obvious to an outsider is rarely such, for most things I think.

        1. DataGirl*

          It’s also possible that it’s just not a priority for them. They may recognize that improvements could be made but if they have 100 other requests from other departments or things that upper management has said are organizational priorities, that they can’t fit it in. IT where I work is like that- if it’s not on the ‘to-do’ list before the year starts, it won’t even be talked about until next year.

          1. Alice*

            Here too. And I get it — but I do grind my teeth when I get their newsletter about how they are so “responsive” and “customer-centered.”

          2. EinJungerLudendorff*

            Though I would argue that if that is the case, IT should communicate that your problem is indeed theirs to fix, but it’s a low priority so you will have to use workarounds for now.

        2. B'Elanna*

          I work as a data warehouse developer, and we run into this now and again. A person will call me up saying that a report is “wrong”. I typically go in, and determine whether the data matches source.

          If it does match source, I’ll tell them it’s an error with the way the data was entered, and to speak with who ever is in charge of entering the data. If the data doesn’t match, OR we are missing data, then I assume it’s something wrong on the IT side, and investigate it further.

          If there is bad data coming in, and they want IT to help find a solution… that is possible, but it’s a conversation that someone needs to start.

      2. SignalLost*

        I haven’t worked with databases for a while, but I think that you’ve got a piece of it. To my recollection, you generally should be able to set certain fields to “required” but keep them out of the primary key. To take a different analogy, since llamas have fur, let’s say you have the llama ranch in your system. In this example, you’re electronically transferring money, so you don’t NEED their physical address, but you do need to know they can supply llamas, alpacas, and vicuñas, but not camels. Or maybe you need to know city and state but not street. You may be able to set required on some of the fields, which will help with the data entry piece.

        But since data entry is only 10% of your problem … since your boss is frustrated, she may be able to authorize you talking to the vendors to find out what they can do about the data load issues. I realize you’re saying you don’t have the expertise to do that, so I’d loop in the other two systems if need be and get everyone in the room for that conversation. They may have solutions that your IT people aren’t aware of, since from their perspective, the system “works”.

    9. Nicki Name*

      IT/software person here! As other commenters have noted, the first question is what kind of IT department you have and their relationship to the software. Are they there to just keep things running, or are they the people who write the software? If the former, you or some other not-IT person may need to take the lead in finding out the data flow.

      If they are the people responsible for the software: It’s normal and reasonable for them to ask you to verify that the wrong-colored llamas aren’t a data entry error. If you verify that Farm A is entering the llamas as brown, and they still show up in your central system as chartreuse, you can take that to them as a definite software problem.

      I do see one obvious system improvement you should be asking for: If the serial number already indicates what color the llama is, it should not allow anyone to set the llama to any other color. If the system requires the color to be entered separately, it shouldn’t. It should be able to figure it out from the serial number. (Or, it should construct the serial number based on the llama color rather than requiring the serial number to be hand-entered.)

      An underlying dynamic to all of this is that IT departments that write software for internal use, rather than as the company’s product, are traditionally starved for resources. Any chance to push back on something as not a bug, or not clearly defined, is likely to be taken because of that.

      1. CMart*

        Using the serial number dictating attributes – that’s usually why it’s a thing to bring to IT rather than me calling up the accounting department at the plant and going “who put in the llama invoices this month?”. It shouldn’t be able to be wrong! So when it is wrong it means something is broken somewhere.

        1. Admin of Sys*

          Oh, hmm – yeah, if the data constraints aren’t working, that’s more likely an issue with the back end system, but it may not be am easily fixable or diagnosable one, especially with the interconnectedness you described in an earlier post. Alas, It may still be on you or someone not in IT to trace the issue if you can, but more because you know what color the llamas should be. If you can pinpoint the fact that the problem tends to occur the 3rd week, or always with 3 toes llamas and never with the donkeys, etc, the extra data may be helpful for the backend folks? Because they’re not going to be able to see the problem happening unless they know enough about the system to know that the llamas should never be green.
          Also, a system that’s duct taped together is going to end up being a rube godlberg machine of processes – they should be able to figure out that the color and serial number aren’t matching up, but being able to trace /where/ those two things interact may be near impossible.
          (Not that they shouldn’t try – I feel like I’m being a bit too supportive of your IT team without much background, so let me reiterate – it’s entirely possible they don’t want to do the auditing or don’t have the skills to trace the data. Root cause is something that should happen! Especially with things like data matching! But they also may just be doing their best and need a ton of data thrown at them to get anything useful out of it)

        2. Nicki Name*

          “So when it is wrong it means something is broken somewhere.”

          Not necessarily, from an IT perspective. What matters to IT (because this is what it will get beaten up by auditors about) is whether the system is working as *specified*, which is not necessarily the same as working in the way a reasonable person would assume it should.

          If it is a specific requirement that the system should only derive colors from serial numbers, or vice versa, then what you have is a bug. But if the system was written to a requirement that it should accept whatever arbitrary input is entered for both color and serial number (which is reeeeeeaaaaallllly common in legacy systems written for workers who don’t really trust electronic systems to get anything right), then it’s working as intended and the problem is with the person doing data entry.

          What you’re asking for may be a system change rather than a bug. And if it’s a change, be prepared that you may have to fight the people at the plant who think the system works just fine.

          1. Admin of Sys*

            eh. I mean, yes, the ‘acting as designed but designed badly’ isn’t a bug in the coding sense. But it’s still an IT issue that needs resolved (assuming it’s home grown software. If it’s purchased, then yeah, that’s unfortunate and folks get to build a process around a badly written ui)
            But I also don’t like it when badly designed software gets setup as ‘not actually a bug’. If I build software that can end up with inaccurate data because a user can enter conflicting data in two different areas then I have a bug. It may be a bug in my form design or in my UI, but it’s still a bug. Just because the backend logic works does not mean the application as a whole does.

    10. KR*

      So I’m kind of on the other end, not IT but the person making the transactions. I know a lot of time our accountants will flag something for us and want to know why it is, why it’s showing up like that, it’s not right, something’s up – and for me I end up having the response of “I’m sorry, I don’t know why the report says that, I did it right on my end and I can’t fix it for you, you just need to make a journal entry to fix it.” I know it’s not ideal and I want to help… But I just don’t know why the program is doing what it’s doing. I know that doesn’t help, just another perspective. I think what would help is recording a few instances where this has happened to you and having a higher level meeting with the most helpful or qualified person with IT you deal with (or someone with the authority and time to make changes) and point out the overarching issues and ask them to come up with a solution because this is not your wheelhouse. I have had luck phrasing it very plainly like, ” I do not have the knowledge or know-how to fix this and this isn’t my area of expertise. I need *you* to handle this or find a solution to this.”

      1. Nicki Name*

        I think that’s the best thing you can do as an end user. If you have a documented pattern of “KR entered X for this thing, but matching it up with CMart’s report shows it as Y”, that is all the info your IT group should need to enter a bug ticket in their tracking system. (Or, if it’s third-party software, for whoever is responsible for configuring that software to go check it out.)

    11. Kat*

      Are you me?! Omg I feel you! I think your expectations are totally normal! That said, I work at a job where we use a very old oracle based database that hardly any of the new programmers (who mostly create reports in java) don’t understand the relationships between tables in the database and don’t understand where data comes from.
      So I have to spend a lot of my time doing the same thing: find anomalies then figure out where the errors came from and where the data should come from to fix it. If I don’t do this then the problem won’t be fixed or the IT staff will fix that problem and cause two more because they don’t understand the database.

      That said, I don’t think this is a finance vs IT difference in mindset. Because when I was studying accounting my curriculum included systems courses where we were taught that IT is supposed to do the work to understand what the user (finance) wants and make what they want. Unfortunately this seems to be a what I learned in school vs how things work in the real world discrepancy.

      But I’m hopeful that it’s not like this everywhere!

    12. Sam Foster*

      Long time IT worker here: I’d bet my last dollar you aren’t talking to the right IT people and even then it’s highly unlikely to be part of IT’s job to help you solve the issues you are experiencing. Administrators, even database administrators, are, GENERALLY, responsible for the maintenance and operation of equipment and software. What is done with or to those systems is generally outside their control. Even if it is an error in code or systematic transformation it is very unlikely that they will be able to solve it without the help of multiple resources which leads to my suggestion: Write up the problems you are experiencing, the costs in time and money that it is costing the company, and talk to your manager about how to get the information to the appropriate parties to identify who it needs to be assigned to for fixing. The solution will likely require people and skills from multiple teams who will have to be ordered to prioritize it. Good luck!

  12. Doug Judy*

    I’m two months into my new job and I really like it. Tuesday I made a pretty big error, and the person quality checking it missed it as well. Fortunately I caught it and fixed it before it cost the company thousands of dollars, it ended up only having an impact of $100. Everyone was kind about it and like “It happens, you made yourself accountable and corrected it.” Refreshing change from previous employers who would make a huge deal about it and treat me like I was an idiot.

    1. Seeking Second Childhood*

      Good for you for selecting a good new employer!
      Think about it this way… is anything a “huge deal” after the £22 billion mistake that hit the news (gulp) 10 years ago. (Link in my next comment for anyone who wants to feel better about a $5k mistake.)

      2. Doug Judy*

        Thanks. I asked a lot of culture questions in my interviews with them and other companies. I made it clear I was looking for an organization that understood that 1. People have lives outside the office and 2. People occasionally make mistakes, that doesn’t mean they aren’t capable and intelligent.

        So far my new company has fulfilled both items so far. No place is perfect, but not being hassled because my kid dares to have a dental appointment or a typo was made has made a huge difference on my mental health.

        1. A Reader*

          That’s a great point about asking about culture questions! How did you word it, exactly, when you were interviewing? I have asked about work-life balance, but I am curious about how to go about asking “So, do you scream and yell if someone makes a mistake?” without wording it that way.

          1. Doug Judy*

            I’d ask something like “How do you recognize accomplishments and how do address things when inevitable mistakes occur.” That way it seemed like I wasn’t just asking about the negative, because how they handled successes was important as well. A lot of places had no idea how to answer the question or gave a very generic or vague answer.

            The place I ended up gave a great answer on how the succeed and fail as a team. If an error happens it’s addressed on how to fix it and what can be learned from it, and then they move on.

    2. Put the Blame on Edamame*

      Glad you have a sane employer, and congratulations on catching it and fixing it. I have a lovely colleague who us still shy about telling us issues because of an abusive former boss, it makes me so angry on her behalf. She’s getting way better at it though, and in general is blooming.

    3. ArtsNerd*

      That’s great! I’m overstretched right now and missing some (not-crucial but also not-trivial) deadlines and making lots of errors. A prominent misspelling made it through print and proofs and to our donors, for example. But my colleagues are so understanding and supportive — and with the print error they’ve pointed out that they all looked at the proofs and missed it themselves.

      It’s a huge change from my early career where I felt solely responsible for everything that went wrong and I’m still so grateful for it.

    4. WalkedInYourShoes*

      I am at a company where the culture is looking at little mistakes and making it a bigger deal than it is. My employees are so unhappy and I am too. So, you are so lucky! I will ask future employers how they address mistakes. I don’t want to get into another company like mine again.

  13. Legal Rugby*

    My wife and I both work for the same employer, and they are incredibly supportive of families and time off as needed. We are currently in the process of becoming foster parents – our county has all of two families without placements right now, so we imagine it will happen relatively quickly when it does. Has anyone had to talk to their bosses about this, or have any advice on how to handle time off requests, etc when dealing with co workers? My boss’s boss knows because she is the VP of HR and she walked me through some of the handbooks provisions that cover foster kids. She told me she would let us handle how to tell our bosses, although she did indicate she was happy to help us rehearse those conversations.

    1. The Man, Becky Lynch*

      This is under FMLA , it includes adoption and foster children placement. Approach it like if you had to ask for time off for a sick child, it’s an urgent life matter! I don’t know why it should be such a rehearsed conversation. It’s simply “We’re in the process of taking in a foster child and we may get a call any day now, how is the best way to navigate this when it happens to leave as minimal impact as possible?”

      1. NJ*

        One thing to know regarding FMLA for adoption/foster placement is that if you both work for the same company you are entitled to 12 weeks between the two of you, not 12 weeks each.

        1. She's One Crazy Diamond*

          Also, check state laws to see if there is a statewide family leave act that gives you more rights than FMLA. For example, my state has one that covers in-laws, grandparents, and grandchildren, and forces companies to give spouses 12 weeks each if they work at the same company. But I am not sure how common that is.

    2. female-type person*

      Also, if your employer is large enough for FMLA, employers may, but do not have to, agree to intermittent bonding leave (which is what you REALLY need for the six million appointments you must take foster children to). You may be in a position that you are allowed to take a block of time, but not a day here and a day there.

    3. The Fosters*

      I told my boss in a low key – this is what is happening in my life sort of way. We are becoming foster parents – I’ll need some form of leave at some point in the near future. I’ve spoken with HR and I’ll keep you in the loop.

      Some people have a lot of follow up questions. Some people have none at all. Personally I don’t mind telling people about the process (not the specifics of our placement situation of course) but generally this is how foster care works in our county.

      Good luck with it all!

  14. What’s with Today, today?*

    My husband works in a professional field and has been finalizing a somewhat contentious deal. Yesterday, the person on the opposite side of this deal called and left him a voicemail that said, “I received the forms you sent over, and uh, Mr. Today, or whatever your name is, I’m going to need you to call me…”

    She used his correct name and just racked that on to the end. He’s communicated with her numerous times in person, on the phone and via email and this person has been downright unprofessional and rude the whole time. I’ve gone into the office to grab something, and have over heard him on the phone being with her, being professional and calm and I can hear her yelling through the phone! It makes me fume. That’s all, just a vent.

    1. WellRed*

      Weird, but I’d chalk it up to a momentary brain cramp. She’s probably embarrassed she did this.

      1. What’s with Today, today?*

        I’d give her that benefit if I hadn’t heard her screaming through the phone at my husband in the past, and if she hadn’t behaved similarly on other occasions. I don’t think this person has any grasp on professionalism.

    2. NACSACJACK*

      Your husband is the kind of person I aspire to be. When some one is attacking you and your work, its hard to not to respond in kind. Those that can do so, get ahead.

    3. MissDisplaced*

      Urg! I hope it’s worth it to the company to have their business. Talk about ‘taking one for the team.’

    4. Triplestep*

      Sounds like an attempt at a power play to me – a failed one. She’s trying to make him feel that he’s too insignificant for her to bother to get his name right. Doofus. She can’t even power play correctly! Try not to feel bad – your husband with all his coolness and professionalism has it all over her and she knows it.

    5. ginger ale for all*

      Some people can’t remember names when they are upset. My mother called me brothersnamethenmyname when she was mad at me and then called him mynameandthenhisname when she was upset with him. It got worse when we got dogs. So it isn’t about him most likely, it is just a quirk of hers.

      1. What’s with Today, today?*

        Everyone’s parents/grandparents do that. Business associates typically don’t. I agree it was about her. I don’t believe for one moment it was accidental.

        1. A Reader*

          I agree, especially as she said his name correctly, then added “Or whatever your name is.” If she’d just called him “Mr. Tomorrow” instead of “Mr. Today,” I could see chalking it up to a brain fart. I’m sure we’ve all slipped up and accidentally called someone the wrong name! But adding that last part is just downright rude, and that’s not even getting into all the previous interactions with her.

  15. SOAS (NA)*

    Last Friday of tax season.

    So so so much to share and process but no time/energy to really get through it.

    I am so looking forward to the end of it, more so this year than past years. 80+ hours to go

    1. Countess Boochie Flagrante*

      Gosh, right? I don’t know what it is but this tax season has been hell.

      1. Seeking Second Childhood*

        From listening over the shoulder of friends in accountancy… a big part of the stress they’re having is calming down people who missunderstood the tax system overhaul. So many of their customers said “WOO HOO my taxes went down” — and spent all of their takehome paycheck. Now they’re angry that they aren’t getting a refund, or heaven forfend might have to pay more. The person who stands in front of them takes the brunt.

        1. SOAS (NA)*

          It’s funny, on my end it’s not really as much clients. They’re pretty consistent and most of them are are generally aware of the new rules.

          I’m having more staff issues, and holy hell some of them are just SO BAD, like do you know how bad you have to be to be let go in the middle of the season? yet we can’t let them go or transfer them, we’re stuck with them.

          One of them is a total jerk to clients — yells at them to call their congressperson to change the law. Gives the wrong information. Another one, the client said they don’t want to work with her and the preparer literally harassed them via email.

          1. Iris Eyes*

            Seems like that could be an issue caused by a much smaller pool of people who are available for seasonal work? With unemployment low and the tax profession in general aging I’d imagine that there are more issues with bad eggs and having even less option to replace them.

            1. Nervous Accountant*

              2 are permanent (have had serious issues with them before) and 1 is seasonal. I actually want to be more involved in the hiring aspect of it as opposed to just training. I am hoping to see how things pan out

        2. Countess Boochie Flagrante*

          For us, one of the big drivers has been the number of publicly-traded companies that did last-minute reclassifications for the year. It delayed a ton of tax reports for us, and our clients (predictably) went ballistic.

          What’s worse, a delayed tax document or a prompt one that then has to be amended because XYZ Inc didn’t make up their minds until the end of March???

          1. SOAS (NA)*

            I hate amendments. I want to do it right the first time.

            Had a client this season who reviewed the return. Signed off on it. And minutes later sent over his W2s. We amended free of charge, but then had the nerve to be verbally abusive.

      2. SOAS (NA)*

        The new laws I’m guessing.

        On a good note, this has been a relatively less stressful tax season. No stupid health related things like last year. In fact, most of the drama has been at work and in a different way than in previous years.

        End is finally here, so excited!

    2. Miss Vaaaanjie*

      I’m not a CPA or accountant with overly complicated returns, but I’m a IRS VITA tax center manager and it’s been quite an uphill battle. Our clients aren’t likely to understand their taxes, witholdings, have investments, are small business owners, and almost all rely on EITC and CTC for their annual financial infusion. I started the year before ACA was implemented, then software change in 2017. Thankfully we have awesome returning volunteers (many retired CPA’s, business accountants, and big brand preparers) to muscle through the drama.

      It’s really hard when a family with a low income and couple of kids disagree on their refund, question our ability to do their return, don’t e-file, take their return to a paid preparer and spend bucks to file (and find out we did it right) but because they can get their refund ‘early’ they do so and we lose out on the client (and it affects our numbers and future funding).

      We’ve been in ‘ABCD’ mode – Always Be Closing the Deal and this weekend is going to be freaky

      1. SOAS (NA)*

        Hi! I got my start as an IRS VITA tax preparer and that’s what led me to my path! Loved hte experience. Totally hear you on the clients. In our center, we had to be very strict about the types of clients we took just for fear of mystery shoppers and pulled funding.

  16. D.W.*

    I will be heading out on maternity leave next week and HR requires that I complete my annual performance review before I leave, as the review and promotion period will be happening while I’ still out.

    My manager approached me about a promotion on Wednesday, from Llama Grooming Associate to Llama Grooming Project Specialist, but the job description is still be finalized, and it’s a role that is basically being created for me. She was very clear that my current workload will not be diminished, so I will have my current responsibilities, plus the responsibilities of this new role, if I accept.

    We will meet next week to discuss and finalize. I have compiled a list of additional questions for clarity on the role. Even though she has told me I will be expected to do two jobs, what is the best way to phrase, “If I accept this promotion, I’d like to discuss back-filling my position to ensure my success in the new role.”? I’d also like to articulate that it’s important that people see me as X and not Y.

    1. Me*

      There’s a distinction between doing two jobs and a job that requires similar duties plus more advanced ones. Where I work the latter is refereed to as an upgrade – the position itself changed and was upgraded.

      I think it’s worth having a clarifying conversation about the additional duties and how you will be expected to juggle the increased work. Then if it appears like you will be doing double work and don’t feel it’s tenable, ask about the options to hire someone to do your old job or possibly a lower scaled position to handle some of your old duties.

    2. CM*

      I don’t have all the details, but it sounds like this essentially boils down to you not wanting the promotion they just offered you under the terms they offered (which is fine). I think it’s important to be aware that that’s the stance you’re taking when you talk to them about it, and to be aware that you might not be able to negotiate terms that you DO want to accept. In the end, you may decide that they aren’t offering you anything you actually want and, if that’s what happens, mat leave is a good time to figure out your next move.

      With that in mind, I’d just tell them what the concern is. If it’s that you don’t think it’s possible to do both your current job and the new job, say so. If it’s that you were actually hoping to transition to a different type of work than your current job, say that. And then, whichever thing you say, follow up by asking if it would be possible to back-fill your current position so that you can focus on your new responsibilities.

      I am curious about the piece where it’s important that people see you as X and not Y. Is that because you’re trying to change fields to X rather than Y, or because people in your office treat X with more respect than they do Y, or something else? I ask because, if it’s a respect issue, or something similar, switching to X might not solve the problem as much as you hope it will.

      1. D.W.*

        What the position actually is is one of my points of clarity. The way it is marketed is as a different line of work into the project management field, which is what we had previously discussed last year, so I’m not sure that an upgrade in responsibilities is the best descriptor. Or maybe that’s what they have in mind!

        In terms of X and Y, I currently function largely in an administrative role for my division, and this new role is managing projects in project supervisory role. I’d prefer not to do both for a clean transition.

        I would strongly prefer to maintain very little to zero of my current responsibilities. I’ve been doing it for three years now and I’m just done with it and ready to move on.

        1. valentine*

          I’d like to discuss back-filling my position to ensure my success in the new role. […] I’d also like to articulate that it’s important that people see me as X and not Y.
          This isn’t on the table. This is a standard response to a different situation: employer wants to move you to X with no clear path for removing your Y (current) duties. I agree with CM. The offer is Z (Y+X), but you don’t want it. You can counteroffer for X, but be clear that’s what you’re doing. Framing it as SOP seems like you don’t understand the offer.

        2. bunniferous*

          Not sure how long your maternity leave is,or whether this is your first experience with parenting, but factor in that adding a baby to the mix when you come back will certainly make it harder to transition. If it were me I would negotiate hard for what I wanted and prepare to job search while on leave if I did not get it.

        3. Boone9*

          Speaking from experience going from administrative to project management, both together and then project management only but in the same department… People will always see you as administrative. It will sabotage you. I’m leaning hard on jumping out of a fantastic job because the admin perception won’t die. All else fails, take the combo role and leverage the non admin piece at your next company.

  17. Rhiiiiiiannnnnnnon*

    One of the OPs today reminded me of a pet peeve of mine, and I wanted to see if any other ladies, or guys, could weigh in… Warning. Rant Language Ahead.

    I absolutely HATE IT when a guy goes out of his way to open a door for for me. Or insists that I “go first.”

    I encounter this everywhere in my office building. For instance, the stairs. A guy and I will both head for the stairs at the same time, and he will stop and then say: “after you.” Bro…No! Just go! I don’t want you right behind me as I go up these stairs! Oftentimes, I’ll just smile and say “no, no, go head – I’m slow in these heels!” But I once had a guy say: “Oh I’m in no rush, go ahead.”

    At least once a week, a guy will hurry ahead of me to open a door for me (eek). Most the times I just sigh, say thank you and walk through. But once a guy held the door in such a way that I would have to walk right against him to get through. You know the move, where they hold the door with their whole body? For that one, I just planted my feet and said, “No, you go ahead.” And he argued with me (!?) for a few exchanges, before I said “I am not walking through the door while you are holding it.” And he finally left, looking at me like I was nuts.

    How do I deal with this backwards instinct? Especially in my office building. :/

    1. CMart*

      If you can’t pick up your pace to get there first, and you see them rushing to get there, stop abruptly to check your phone, “sorry, you go ahead”.

      1. Seeking Second Childhood*

        I’ve done this too. Totally put down my laptop bag and look through it for something. There used to be one guy at another company who skeeved me out who would urge me in and say “I’ll wait!” I took great delight in “forgetting my glasses” and going back to the car for them. It was TOTALLY worth losing my early-arrival free cup of coffee from the cafeteria for that.

    2. Alton*

      I really hate it, too. For me, it’s awkward on a couple levels. One, I think it’s sexist and awkward in general. Two, I’m non-binary, and it’s a really strong reminder that people perceive my gender differently than I do. Dysphoria overload.

      But it’s also discomforting how out of sorts men get sometimes if you don’t take them up on their offer, or if you try to open the door for them. I’ve had men act confused, mumble about being a gentleman, and outright insist that I accept and refuse to take no for an answer.

      I do find that most guys are good about it. The ones who make a big deal over it…I try to avoid them, honestly. Fortunately, I haven’t encountered situations where I had to interact with them regularly.

      1. Jin*

        Solidarity on the non-binary front as I’m also trans and NB.

        I always try to hold the door for whoever’s behind me, if the distance is reasonable (a couple feet max) and regardless of gender. It’s interesting to note if/when a cis guy ever get his feathers ruffled over it, and I’ll admit I definitely used to enjoy watching a dude squirm over receiving the chivalry he so loves to dish.

      2. A Tired Queer*

        Same hat! Same hat!

        I get that they’re trying to be polite, and I’m not trying to out-polite them or some shit, but they are definitely trying to out-polite me and then they give me that “Ladies first” shit and I’m like “Bro! My dude! I am literally already holding the door! Just! Go!”

        Ugh. Yes.

    3. Rhymes with Mitochondria*

      I mostly don’t care if people hold open a door for me, but I do it for people all the time, too. My general strategy is to treat opening doors as a kindness that anyone can do for anyone.
      But when it makes me feel uncomfortable, like when a guy goes out of his way to make sure you’re walking up the stairs in his line of sight (dudes, that’s a creepy move and not a kindness!) I’ve taken to saying things like “Go ahead, I don’t like having people walking behind me.” or “It always makes me feel self conscious when people watch me walk upstairs.” etc. Speak that discomfort!
      But that move where they put their whole body in the way so you would have to brush up against them is THE WORST. I have turned and walked away. I won’t do it. (Again, dudes, we are on to that technique, and trying to force “accidental” contact is not cool. Ever.)

      1. Parenthetically*

        Basically my whole thought. I’m a woman who holds doors all the time and has doors held for her all the time by both men and women, because it’s a kind thing to do for people who have their hands full. Maybe 20% of the time it’s a guy who’s obviously trying to be sort of aggressively chivalrous. I usually have my kid with me so I ALWAYS, regardless of the gender of the person, move aside so they can go ahead of me, because my kids is almost two and thus has no sense of where he is in relation to others or how long it should take to get up the stairs.

      2. Michaela Westen*

        I haven’t seen the forcing accidental contact in a long time, if ever. I feel sorry for men who are so pathetic as to resort to that. There’s no one in their life who will give them a hug? Sad.

        1. Alexia*

          They’re not doing it because they don’t have anyone to hug them. They’re doing it because it’s a gross power play to assert their dominance over women. They could be getting hugged for three hours a day and they’ll still take the opportunity to force women to endure physical contact as a way of making themselves feel like big strong men.

    4. DogsAndCats*

      I don’t mind the door thing as much but I had an ex-boyfriend (ex for a reason) that used to unexpectedly startle me and poke/prod/slap my butt when I walked up a flight of stairs in front of him. I hated it so much and I used to get so anxious that he would do it that I still have a sense of panic when I walk upstairs in front of a man. I don’t even like walking up stairs ahead of my own current boyfriend, who I love and trust and who knows about this issue and would never do it. I never know what to say when male friends/colleagues/strangers want to follow me up a flight of stairs without offending them. Usually I don’t actually think they’re about to assault me but the psychological reaction and discomfort is still there.

      1. Just bleargh*

        I hear you. I also found that if you do say something as reasonable as, “Hey, it startles me/throws me off when you grab at me while I’m focused on walking up the stairs safely,” those types can so often come back all offended. Like how dare you want to just be a person doing a person thing and not also there for their entertainment. Bleargh.

      2. Luna*

        Ew to what your ex tended to do.
        I have huge issues with people touching me unexpectedly, even my mother will see that I tense up when she is a bit exuberant in giving me a birthday hug. But I especially hate it when people touch my butt. That is mine, you have no right to touch that without my permission. And I am the type to react suddenly and physically if someone’s physical contact startles me — your boyfriend would have been very likely to have received a kick or a turn-and-slap for doing that to me.

        I haven’t really noticed many men that insist that I go first when heading up stairs or that I go after them when heading down stairs, but the door thing can make me feel awkward. Please, just walk through the door and hold it, then let go when I hold the door open to go through myself. Thank you for not letting the door slam into my face.

        But I have had men who suddenly do the arm-above-me thing to hold the door, then tell me, who was holding the door open, to go through. Just go through, man. It’s not that difficult to do.

    5. Paige*

      I feel you. Elevators are the worst–if someone is trying to be “chivalrous,” it usually ends up taking both of us longer to get out. Guys, we want expediency more than courtesy.

      I was also passing somebody on the sidewalk today, and he made a scooch-schooch gesture to command me to walk on the side farther from the street. Some guys are taught this–so that the lady is less like to get hit by a car, I guess? But I don’t think everyone is aware of this, and so I imagine plenty of women just find the urgent move-to-the-left gesture a rude “get out of my way” instead of a courtesy. :)

      1. Lizzy May*

        The elevator is where I run into this most often. I get on at the top floor of my building. I’m am at the back of the elevator. The man in question will always be in front of me but somehow will want to wait for me to get off first. It’s not efficient and I just want to go home!

      2. Elaine*

        I’m told the thing about women walking on the inside of the sidewalk is from the days when many streets weren’t paved and mud could splash on the person on the outside edge. It sounds plausible.

      3. Policy Wonk*

        When I lived in Latin America I was told the woman always had to be on the inside. If she was on the street side she was “for sale”. If your scooch-scooch guy was from another culture, this might be the reason.

    6. Cercis*

      You could go scorched earth and say “so you can stare at my ass as I walk up ahead of you? Yeah, you go ahead and go first.” But I don’t think that would go over well, even if you do have an ass that most people want to stare at.

      I’m still working on it. With men that I have a good rapport with, I’ll pull out that line, even though it makes me cringe horribly. Of course, right now, I’m cringing at a lot of the things I’ve said to men with whom I have a good rapport (have I encouraged them to think it’s okay to use “locker room talk” around other women, etc).

      I’ve also explained to men that it makes me self-conscious to walk in front of them because I’ve had men stare at me and make comments on my attractiveness or lack thereof. I explain that I know it’s my own hang-up and that #notallmen but that it’s a strong primal response and I needed them to respect it and walk next to me or otherwise follow my lead as to what they should do. But there’s a small number of men that you can do that with.

      One of the best I’ve come up with for the creepy men is a “oh shoot, you go ahead, I just realized I forgot something” and then when they start through say “oh, never mind, there it is” and follow them through. It makes me look a little ditzy, but prevents the creepy “brush against my body while you go through” situation.

    7. MarfisaTheLibrarian*

      Oh, I LOATHE when people (usually though not always men) do the thing where they’ll hold open a door that opens away from the side of the doorway they’re on, so they’re standing they’re IN the doorway that they’re telling you to go through

      1. Countess Boochie Flagrante*

        It’s the absolute worst thing. Memo to guys — it’s the OPPOSITE of helpful and gentlemanly!

        1. Parenthetically*

          Makes me crazy! It’s INCORRECT, as well as unhelpful — if the door opens out, you should go through it, stand BEHIND the door holding it open, and allow the person with stuff in their hands to pass through! There’s literally a right and a wrong way to do it and they’re doing it wrong!

      2. KR*

        Yes!! Or if you’re a petite person they’ll hold the door open and you’re expected to duck under their arm. Yuck!! And then they get mad at you when you have the audacity to insist they go through and stop holding up traffic.

        1. A Tired Queer*

          Yes this! It’s like, I ain’t ducking under your stinky armpit so you can get politeness points, bro!

        2. A Reader*

          UGH, this happened to me TWICE in the last two weeks! I am short, and the guys who were “helping” by holding the door were at least 6 feet tall. I don’t think they were being weird about it; I think they honestly thought they were being helpful and didn’t realize until right before I ducked under their arm how weird it was. I think I’ll just say with a smile “Thanks, but I am not walking under your arm.”

      3. Elizabeth West*

        Guh!
        If I’m on the wrong side of the door and I want to hold it for someone, I just move. It’s not hard.

    8. CareerCat*

      Ugh, me too!! And getting on/off elevators is the worst in my building. We’re all humans and it’s 2019 for frack’s sake; let’s just go about our business as equals and quit it with the fake deferential treatment. I’m waiting with bated breath to see if another commenter might have suggestions on how to combat this.

      Also, good for you for telling the door-holder you weren’t going to give him the cheap thrill he was looking for!!

      1. Seeking Second Childhood*

        I frequently carry a laptop … and if someone’s that close, I switch it to the side that will give me a buffer. I have definitely bonked someone doing that…once may have been bruise-worthy. And ever since I have claimed that as the “give me space” rational.

      2. Bostonian*

        I’m so glad I’m not the only one who feels this way about the elevators. I made a similar comment in the 5 questions post. It would be so much easier if everyone unloaded/loaded in order of proximity to the door!

      3. Apologies*

        There’s also always the one guy who will hold his arm in front of the elevator door and wait for you to get off (or on). As if elevator doors don’t stay open long enough on their own?! It’s infuriating!
        Just a few days ago I managed to stand my ground and make him get off first. It was very satisfying. He was so uncomfortable.

    9. M*

      Return awkward to sender. If you’ve already politely deflected and they’re still in your way, call it what it is.

      “You’re blocking the doorway. I’m not going to squeeze past you. Either go through, or get out of the doorway so I can.” Say it nicely, but name the behaviour, and let them feel bad.

    10. Yorick*

      Ugh. I’m fat so I’m extra slow on the stairs, and a man in front of me will wait even though I’m only halfway up. Just go in! I can open the door when I get there in 5 minutes!

      One time I wasn’t sure if there was money left on my bus pass or if I’d need to use cash. So I wanted to go on the bus last because it would take longer. I had to basically yell at a guy before he’d get on the bus first. If I say, “you go ahead,” why wouldn’t you just go ahead?!

    11. Annie Moose*

      I think you largely just have to deal with it. In most cases, the men are probably not doing it at you, it’s just an instinct for them because they’ve had it drilled into them from childhood. It may help to reframe it that way: they’re not trying to insult you, and they have no clue that you have strong feelings about it. Focus your feelings on traditional gendered rules of etiquette, if you want to focus it somewhere. Push back when you feel like it, but don’t feel like you’re “betraying feminism” or something on the days where you don’t feel like pushing back.

      In the specific cases of men who push back against your pushing back (it sounds like most react fine when you push back, it’s just a few outliers who have this extreme reaction or make it creepy), that is definitely more frustrating and anger-worthy! I don’t think there’s anything you can really do to stop this, other than pushing back firmly as you’ve done. And I think you gotta decide for yourself how much mental energy you want this to take up–you probably don’t want to spend all day, every day focusing on this stuff, right? It’s okay to dismiss these extreme guys as the dicks they are, rant about it if you’ve got female friends who understand, and put them out of your head. There’s a lot of microaggressions in the world, and personally I just get so tired and depressed when I focus on all of them. I have good friends I can let it all out with on occasion, but the rest of the time, I try not to let it rule my life.

      1. Workerbee*

        I understand the exhaustion of all the things that need fixing. I’m heartened by posts such as T Boone’s downthread, where he’s retrained his brain on those drilled-in instincts.

    12. Seeking Second Childhood*

      I hear ya. Last Friday I was heading out with my laptop backpack, my gym bag, and a knitting project. I was bulky. He stood there blocking the doorway to hold it open. I looked at him and said “I appreciate the offer, but you’re blocking the doorway. This laptop would bruise you.”
      I honestly didn’t pay attention to his reaction when he finally got out of my way.

    13. Countess Boochie Flagrante*

      Ugh, I’m right there with you on it.

      I’ve started making a campaign of always being the one holding doors for others at my job — for the people who are willing to treat it as a total ordinary non-gendered kindness, hey, I’m dishing out kindness and it’s great! And then for the guys who want to always be the one holding doors for women, I can at least mount a quiet and subtle challenge to the gendered door-holding thing. If they feel the need to make it weird, they can be the ones feeling weird about it, not me.

      1. Seeking Second Childhood*

        YES! I hadn’t thought of it this way, but I am on your team. Some guy’s carrying a box, I grab the door for them. When they make awkward noises, I say brightly “I’m sure you’ll do it for me when I’ve got my hands full!”

        1. Countess Boochie Flagrante*

          Exactly. When I used a cane and doors could be very awkward depending on which way they opened, door-holding was appreciated. When someone has their hands full, it’s great! But do it as a non-gendered act of kindness, not “omg A Lady is here and must not soil her precious soft hands on the door!”

      2. Emi.*

        We have a lot of airlocks where I work so I just let them hold the first door so I can sail through and hold the second. Some of my coworkers are clearly uncomfortable with this and that’s a big part of why I do it. :-]

    14. Kramerica Industries*

      I absolutely hate this in elevators. I could be the only woman at the back of an elevator, but men would still try to insist I go first. On some days, I’ll try saying “you’re closer to the door, it’s easier if you go first”. Although on other days, I just want to scream “IT’S 2019. STOP IT.”

      Then there are the days where I might be in an elevator with a few men who don’t even say anything or signal. They just stand there looking at me until I walk out. So I stand there looking back at them with a confused look on my face until they give up and go first.

      2. T. Boone Pickens*

        I’ve had to re-train my brain in terms of elevator etiquette especially when it’s just myself and a female. If we walk in at the same time, I’m always quick to select my floor first on the off chance we’re going to the same floor and if we are going to the same floor, I do my best to exit first, get my keys ready and show that I’m just another resident.

        Now for hotels, I’ve made the adjustment in that if it’s myself and a female (or even a group of females), I don’t even bother getting on with them. I just catch the next one.

        The door thing was always puzzling to me as I’ve held the door regardless of sex, everyone appreciates having the door held for them when their hands are full. I’m not gonna lie, it has been an adjustment for me as I was raised in a really old school etiquette environment (think standing for women when they leave the table).

        1. Workerbee*

          Your willingness to take a step back (sometimes literal!) and think is deeply appreciated. It’s not easy at all to overcome ingrained rules.

          1. T. Boone Pickens*

            I appreciate the kind words. It’s been a hard adjustment trying to re-wire my brain after 35+ years on this earth.

      3. A Simple Narwhal*

        Yaaaas this. It frustrates me to no end when someone closer to the door in the elevator insists on hanging back and letting me go first. I know it comes from a good place, but it annoys me to no end, like they’re seeing me as a lady first and a human second. I’ve actually tried standing towards the back of the elevator to make it less subjective (“oh we’re both close to the door”), but more than not I still end up having to step around the person in front of me.

    15. Mimi Me*

      I HATE THIS! I don’t even like it when my husband or kids walk behind me on the stairs. I will literally stop on the stairs and wave my arm (the whole ‘go around’ motion) until whoever is behind me passes me. I did once have someone refuse to pass me and I accidentally (I swear it!) farted in his face as I made my way up the stairs. We were both horrified though he did laugh and say “well, you did tell me to pass you so that was on me”.
      I’ve dug my heels in about not passing people with the whole body door hold because it’s creepy, but honestly it doesn’t bother me if someone rushes ahead of me to hold the door open for me. I’m not hurrying my speed for them though. I hate the guys who rush to the door while you’re still some distance away and then stand there holding it looking annoyed that you’re not moving quickly. Nobody asked you to hold the door, I’m moving at my pace, and if you don’t like it, let the door close. It’s not like a woman is going to stand at the door wondering how on earth it opens. We’re fully capable of opening it if they let it go.

      Funny story about the whole body door hold thing. A few years ago I worked at a theme park in one of the many retail shops. At closing time we’d close the doors and one person would man the doors to let people out. One night it was this big guy – we’ll call him Hodor – and he did the whole body hold. Women, children, men…they all kind of slid past him sideways and he was totally oblivious to the fact that his large body took up a large portion of the space. Then an older couple walked through. The woman did a sideways walk and sort of did a little shoulder shimmy as she got in front of Hodor. There was a laugh. Then her partner walked through. He was big like Hodor and when he slid sideways past him their bellies pressed together. Not a touch or a glance…full on pressed together. The guy paused there and did one of those Sumo wrestler moves where he lifted one leg, then the other and then he wrapped his arms around Hodor and sort of lifted him up and out of the way. It was very awkward but funny at the same time. Hodor stopped door duty after that.

      1. Bostonian*

        That GoT reference is doing double duty: Hodor as a large man AND someone who is known to hold doors….

    16. Middle School Teacher*

      There was a twitter thread this week by a woman who talked about how not only is it awkward when men hold doors open for women and insist they go first, but it can be scary, especially if you’re in a hotel, or a large apartment building. It’s unfortunate but I saw her point.

      1. Rhiiiiiiannnnnnnon*

        Yeah that’s honestly how I feel sometimes… “I don’t know you buddy, and I want to keep you in my eyesight, and not behind me. Please go first.”

        1. Elizabeth West*

          OMG yes.

          Besides, if there’s a zombie at the top of the stairs, it’ll get him first.

    17. El*

      Oh god, I HATE this. Or like when you’re awkwardly far away and they insist on standing there and holding it for you, which makes you feel like you gotta hurry up and get there!! I’ve taken to just looking at the sky/behind me/wherever I can to make aggressively clear that I don’t see the guy holding the door, and usually that makes them stop. Is that rude of me? Maybe?

    18. Eleanor Shellstrop*

      Oh god, I HATE this. Or like when you’re awkwardly far away and they insist on standing there and holding it for you, which makes you feel like you gotta hurry up and get there!! I’ve taken to just looking at the sky/behind me/wherever I can to make aggressively clear that I don’t see the guy holding the door, and usually that makes them stop. Is that rude of me? Maybe?

    19. Sam VM*

      IMO, the holding-the-door-for-others issue only crops up when people go out of their way to ‘perform’ it, especially men for women. Like your last example, that’s not manners, that’s a standoff! (and I am totally on your side here, there’s a difference between doing a nice thing for someone, rather than creating a situation where you insist on being acknowledging for the nice thing you did and making the interaction last way longer than it needs to).
      Personally, I would just briefly thank them and get on with it like you’ve done, and if one of them does the full body maneuver, tell them that it’s really not necessary in the future. Maybe if the chance comes up naturally (don’t do that weird sprint thing they’re doing , lol) hold the door open for them, just to highlight that this is just a considerate thing to do, not ‘chivalrous male’ behavior, but ugh how annoying!

    20. Qwerty*

      I don’t recommend my way of dealing with it, which to eventually just get used to always being the one to go through doorways first. In an elevator behind a group of execs? They would all stand aside and insist that I exit first, despite it being *so much* less efficient. Another person arrived at a door or rounded a corner at the same time as me? They always would step aside and let me pass first. At some point it just took less time out of my day to accept it. Now I’m just used to having right of way all the time which is becoming awkward now that I work with normal people.

      Apparently I did make one person reconsider his perspective when he insisted that he was being “chivalrous” by responding “we’re all equals here”. He’s toned it down a lot since then.

    21. Zephy*

      > I absolutely HATE IT when a guy goes out of his way to open a door for for me. Or insists that I “go first.”

      Here’s a thing that would happen all the time at OldJob. There was a hallway with a door in the middle of it, and a window beside it so you could see someone coming the other way. A typical interaction: Ladytype and Dudebro approach a door from opposite sides. The door opens toward Ladytype, and she reaches it first. The simplest thing would be for Ladytype to step aside and hold the door for Dudebro, because (1) she got there first and (2) it opens toward her, so she already has to stop and take a step back. BUT NO. Dudebro insists on awkwardly leaning over the threshold to hold the door for Ladytype, or walk through the door and then loop back around to hold the door for Ladytype.

    22. noahwynn*

      FWIW, I had it drilled into me as a child by both my parents and society to hold doors open for women. I’m not that old either, only 34, but did grow up in the South which can lag behind on certain social changes like this.

      If I’m walking with a woman, my natural inclination is to open the door and hold it while she passes through. If someone said “you go ahead” though I was also taught it would be rude to argue and make the other person uncomfortable. “Good manners is the art of making people comfortable.” Over time this has changed in professional setting to where I might open the door, but I’ll walk through and kinda hold it open until the other person can grab it, same as I would do for a man.

    23. AshK434*

      I’m a woman and I think it’s nuts when people are outraged when ppl are kind/polite to them. Maybe it’s because no one shows me these courtesies? (I’m black though so not sure if that play a role).

      1. M*

        The thing is, in practice, it’s neither kind nor polite. I totally get how it can look that way when you largely don’t experience it, particularly when the reason you largely don’t experience it is systematic racism (and also: urrrrrrgh, that’s awful), so I don’t want to downplay that lived experience. When it’s a thing you see men do for white women and not for you, I completely understand how it’s easy to categorise it as “just another courtesy white women get that I don’t”.

        But in practice, what it means is men awkwardly getting in your way and insisting that you validate them as “good men”. It’s frequently extremely inconvenient – they’re literally standing in the doorway, they’ll awkwardly wait around even when you’re ages away which pushes you to hurry even if you don’t want to/can’t, it often actually makes it slower to get through the door. It isn’t actually *helpful* in most circumstances – I mean, all people able to do so should hold doors for anyone carrying lots of things, or using a mobility aid, or juggling small children, but that’s not what this is: it’s men selectively holding doors for women who are perfectly capable of using a doorhandle themselves. And it stems from some seriously patronising and paternalist assumptions about what the role of women is, many of which are – as your experience demonstrates – also pretty tied to internalised racist norms about protecting the “delicate white ladies”. And it isn’t usually a courtesy done without an agenda – it’s more awkward-outdated-male-flirtation than automated kindness, or they’d be doing it for everyone. All of that together makes it an unpleasant thing to be on the receiving end of – *particularly* in the workplace, where you don’t want to be seen as a fragile ornament to be carefully handed from protective male figure to protective male figure.

    24. Jaguar*

      From the other side of this:

      I’m a man, and I’ll hold the door for everyone. I won’t rush in front of someone, but if I reach the door first, I’ll hold it for anyone else coming through and if a door opens towards me, I’ll wait and hold it for anyone else regardless of if they arrived first. Doesn’t matter the gender, age, ethnicity, mobility, or whatever of the other person is.

      The rudest a man has ever been is walking through the door without any acknowledgement (even looking anywhere at me), which happens now and then but infrequently. The rudest women go way past that into angrily snapping at me that I’m only holding the door open for them that I’m a woman (in one case, the woman was the second to walk through after the man right in front of her I held the door open – I guess the thinking is that held the door for him just so I could get to holding it for her?). It’s rare that it happens, but it does every now and then, and it’s always astonishing. And to be fair, even though it’s not relevant, the absolute nicest, kindest people also tend to be women.

      By far, most women (and most people) accept the kindness and, from all appearances, seem genuinely happy about the small kindness. I don’t envy the people that become angry when others are polite to them. I think you should try to stop letting this bother you.

      2. Cercis*

        I’d suggest walking through the door and holding it open behind you and allowing the next person to take it and do the same. That way you’re not forcing people to walk past you, potentially having to squeeze in tight spots and you’re being more efficient with everyone’s time.

        Of course, if their hands are full, you should step out and hold it from behind, if possible.

        I’m a woman who does the door dance of holding the door open. I can’t count the number of times I’ve stepped behind the door to hold it open for someone with a baby carriage, or similar and then gotten stuck holding it for another 10 people, none of whom thought to push on it and take it on for themselves.

        If someone is holding the door for me, I’ll push on the door and say, “go on, I’m good” and I get annoyed if they insist on staying there. I have to wonder if they’re going to fall in behind me and follow me. I know that seems irrationally paranoid, but it’s a fact that a lot of women are followed like that and we exist in a world where men are basically (as I heard it described once) Schrodinger’s rapist and we need to be ever vigilant (which is absolutely exhausting, as you can probably guess).

    25. LuJessMin*

      I hold doors open for people, and I like it when they hold it open for me. I also thank them with a pert “Thank you, sir/ma’am!” Personally, I think you are being rude by not just going ahead. Just go, it isn’t going to kill you.

      1. Workerbee*

        Eh, I’d give a little empathetic leeway to the persons who don’t choose to accept the offer to go ahead; you never know what precipitating factors have formed their day/week/life.

        The key words I see in yours and Jaguar’s comments are “everyone” and “people.” It doesn’t sound like either of you are targeting a gender; you’re not doing this AT any particular subset of “everyone” or “people.” And I see neither a stampede nor performance art, nor expectation of a cookie or gold star. You’re equal opportunity door-openers and you get on with your day.

        All of which is a notable difference from the experience which a lot of commenters here and on other platforms have undergone and keep having to deal with.

        1. LuJessMin*

          But it’s not like a man rushing to open a door for a woman is inherently a bad thing. Men (which the last time I checked are people, too) were raised/told/expected to hold the door open for women. It’s such a small thing to get upset about. Ignoring them or being rude to them reflects poorly on you, not on them.

          Now the elevator thing, I agree with you there, just get on the damn elevator already!

    26. Unicorn*

      Maybe accept the fact that a lot of women are perfectly fine with the gesture. Most people I know, men and women, hold doors for people and let people go ahead of them into elevators and stairs and it’s considered polite.

      1. Hansa*

        The key word there is PEOPLE. doing it for PEOPLE is fine. doing it for WOMEN BECAUSE THEY ARE WOMEN is not. This thread is about the latter. Your post appears to be about the former.

  18. wafflesfriendswork*

    Does anyone here work in customer experience/customer care? I’m looking at a few startup CX roles that say they are looking for people who are willing to work some weekends and evenings, and I’m hoping someone could shed some light on the depth and breadth of this ask–I don’t mind one or two evenings a week, or every other Saturday in a slightly less traditional work schedule, but I don’t want to suddenly have a completely opposite schedule from the people I socialize with! My fiance has done freelance event and journo photography the whole time we’ve been together, so it’s been a lot of those kinds of evenings and it’s not been great (he just finished grad school and is looking for a regular 9-5 type job).

    Are my expectations out of line with reality? Am I asking for a bait-and-switch where they tell me it won’t be every weekend and evening and then end up with that schedule?

    1. L. S. Cooper*

      I interviewed at a place for this, and while I’m not sure if they were accurate (didn’t end up accepting the offer), the customer care role would have been mostly during working hours, but they expected coverage during high-volume times, like Black Friday and the weekend afterwards.

    2. LCL*

      I would ask them how many hours they expect to have you work, and how they will compensate you for extra hours. There’s a big difference between stacking work on top of a 40 hour schedule vs working evenings instead of days. Startups have a reputation for sucking the life out of there employees, it’s up to you if you want to risk it. If you are young and not supporting kids, and the compensation offered is good, it might be worth it for awhile.

    3. The Man, Becky Lynch*

      Ask them.

      I would assume they have “seasons” and there’s a busy one. I worked in one where their busy season was the Christmas season, so they would make it clear there may be evening hours or a weekend shift for the warehouse to package things on time [not so much for customer service in that case but I could see processing orders being something that needs those extended hours!]

      It’s most likely to cover their butts in case they need to ask for weird shifts to be taking place but not necessarily a given.

    4. Me*

      Assuming they have a website – look at what the customer service hours are listed as. If they say some, it’s probably a rotating schedule which is something you can ask. I don’t think bait and switch is terribly common.

    5. Agent Banana*

      The best thing to do is ask. I work in CX for a utility and when I started we were required to do one Sunday a month and on-call rotations what meant we could be called in for mandatory 12 hour shifts at anytime. Shift bidding also happened every six months so if your stats were mediocre or below you might end up with a static shift that was in the evening or weekend.

      Again. Just ask.

    6. Turbovicki*

      Hiya, former CX manager here. Depending on the nature of the role, you’re usually looking at some people who do work a Tues-Sat or Sun-Thurs schedule, depending. This can be beneficial for students, but not so beneficial for people who want a more Mon-Fri role (I know I do). As for evenings, this depends as well. We aimed for 24 hr coverage, but we had people located in different parts of the country to cover hours while we were asleep. I have seen roles that specify night shift, so the short answer to this long winded response is: Ask for clarity! If they stumble or act weird, they are almost certainly looking for someone who will be in a more permanent non-standard schedule role, so be wary of that. If you are going to ask someone to work non-standard hours for a long period of time, you need to be upfront about that.

    8. Hillary*

      Who are their customers? If it’s primarily a b2b environment it’ll probably be mostly days with evening/weekend call, their customers probably aren’t working evenings unless something is on fire. If it’s b2c evenings/weekends will be much more frequent.

    9. alphabet soup*

      My experience is that if you are available nights and weekends, that’s all you’ll get scheduled for, because it’s hard to find folks with that availability.

      1. KatieKat*

        Definitely ask! You have some good answers here. where I’ve worked it’s been a mix so I thought I’d share:

        — people with permanent adjusted schedules (ie Tues-Sat)
        — people with normal M-F 9-5 schedules with mandatory after hours on call. Typically about one weeknight and one weekend a month, not working constantly but responding to urgent customer issues as they come in. Paid a flat rate for each day on call (something like two hours worth of their hourly wage) and then paid for any hours actually worked (usually at their overtime rate, since it’s past their scheduled 40).

  19. DC*

    I’m currently struggling with taking enough time off to care for myself and try and recover a bit from my current burnout (and am lucky enough to have a boss that REALLY encourages time off), but am always feeling guilty at the time I’m taking off.

    How do you all handle these feelings?

    1. Alianora*

      If you have a good relationship with your boss it might be a relief to talk to her about feeling guilty, just so you can hear her tell you why she encourages it. If I’m feeling uncomfortable or guilty about a mistake I made, being upfront and open about it can alleviate that.

      Not that taking time off is actually a thing to feel guilty about, but “confessing” may relieve your anxiety in the same way.

    2. Angwyshaunce*

      With standard working hours, plus commute, getting ready, etc, work takes up nearly a third of our lives. Factor in sleep and life obligations, and that leaves surprisingly little time for ourselves. When I think about it this way, taking occasional time off seems very reasonable.

      I also have several time consuming hobbies, which are hard to squeeze in an hour or two in the evenings. So when I take a full week off of work (twice a year), I revel in diving deeply into my projects, and don’t spare many thoughts for work during that time, knowing work will be waiting for me in the very near future.

      Work provides the means to live a decent life, and shouldn’t prohibit you from living that decent life. At least that’s how I see it.

    3. Jemima Bond*

      When a colleague says they are taking time off (sick, going on holiday, maternity leave), what do say to them? I bet it’s, gosh I hope you feel better soon, I’ll let boss know you called in/oh wow that sounds amazing, have s great time!/you must be so excited, get some rest before the big day, do send us a photo of Tangerina!
      I bet you don’t think to yourself, huh, what a skiver, letting the side down, how dare they.

      Give yourself a break – i’d bet my bottom dollar nobody thinks badly of you for taking time off.

    4. B'Elanna*

      I find it’s helpful to remember that a good boss (which you have) wants you healthy and content. They don’t want burnedout people, and you’ll be much better at your job when you return.

    5. Buu*

      Any good workplace schedules for PTO as part of a business cost. You’re doing your job by taking time off! My advice is to try and go away for a few days and don’t check your work e-mails. You don’t have to pack your schedule full but if you plan some things like ” go to the beach, go to that niche bookshop in holiday town”. Then you can hopefully create enough space between you and work to wind down, with enough low pressure goals that you keep yourself thinking about your holiday and no work.

      Your thoughts may slip to work occasionally and that’s OK, but consciously try and file it away and then focus on your holiday.

  20. Destroyer of Worlds, Empress of Awesome*

    Hi Y’all,
    So I did it, I got me another job and I start on Monday!! The new company is established in my county, has been around about 30 years and is legit and above-board.

    And I do want to say that I can give most of the credit to AAM and the commentariat. Reading the comments here and taking the advice that works *for me* has enabled me to go into interviews with more confidence and not feeling….squeamish…about interviewing them. This now makes the second job I’ve gotten hands down by following the advice of Alison and y’all. Thank you so much for being here…and being kind. I wish more of the internet was like AAM.

    I am having a bit of an internal dilemma, though. I’m hoping y’all might have some sage words of advice for me on how to handle this situation as it is completely new to me. I have never ghosted an employer before and never thought I would find myself in this position. I am feeling awful about it!!! Like, I feel really, really guilty. I know I shouldn’t because if he decided to let me go without any notice he wouldn’t think twice about it. But my gut is all turned upside down. I know this is a step for the better (established company, plays by the obvious rules) but I really can’t help feeling bad that I am leaving them in a bit of a lurch.
    I am considering telling him I will work nights producing any estimates and working on the books as I have been, until he can hire someone else but I’m concerned this might leave me open for some kind of verbal abuse (he’s very reactive—if he gets it in his head that he is pissed at me, I could be subject to some verbal harassment). Aaaargh! Yet another reason to just cut the cord and not look back. But even knowing those things, I feel awful about handling this so unprofessionally. Flip side: nothing about this office is professional so why should I feel bad? Other flip side: but it’s so wrong to just walk out and not go back! I could do this all day long……does anyone have any advice for how I can stop beating myself up about this decision?

    (Sorry if this posts twice…it’s not showing up and I don’t think have any “flag” words in my post…..)

    1. WellRed*

      I’m confused. On the one hand you want to ghost but on the other, you want to offer to work nights? Give notice like it’s a normal place and be prepared to leave immediately if they harass you in any way.

      1. Destroyer of Worlds, Empress of Awesome*

        Unfortunately, I am scheduled to start the new place on Monday so normal notice isn’t possible. As I mentioned last week, this company has a lot of hinky stuff going on that I really don’t want to be involved in (I have enough going on with my whistleblower stuff from two employers ago). But I feel bad about leaving them in a lurch and am trying to find a way to make it easier on both he and I. (I just feel bad about leaving them in a lurch….that’s the only reason I’m talking about working nights.)

        1. MayLou*

          I don’t think it counts as ghosting if you communicate to them that you are leaving and when. Quitting is not the same as just vanishing without a word, even with limited notice! What does your contract, if you have one, say? Is there a required notice period? If not, and if you are just in an at-will employment state, then don’t feel even the slightest bit of guilt. Your current boss sounds awful, and like he wouldn’t hesitate to leave you in the lurch if the positions were reversed.

          Be straightforward and honest: “I have a new position, I will be starting on Monday.” Don’t offer anything like working nights unless they specifically ask you, and make it worth your while – and I doubt they will do the second part of this…

          1. Michaela Westen*

            If you think the company is doing shady things and you don’t want to be involved in it, I wouldn’t offer or agree to continuing to work for them. Move on into a better job with an honest employer, and don’t look back.

            1. Destroyer of Worlds, Empress of Awesome*

              That’s what I’m gonna do. I just needed some clearer heads to help me think this whole thing out. I’ve been involved in some very strange employment scenarios down here in Floriduh so my sense of normal is skewed.

              1. Quandong*

                I’m glad to hear that – your wellbeing is so much more important than trying to make this transition period easier for the company you’re leaving.

    2. Sara*

      Hey there! Could you define what you mean by ‘ghosting’ in this context? Are you just not going to show up for work or are you quitting with no notice?

      1. Destroyer of Worlds, Empress of Awesome*

        Yeah, sorry, I guess I’m quitting with no notice. I plan on sending him an email this weekend telling him I won’t be back.

        1. Artemesia*

          Yeah this isn’t good. You should have given two weeks notice and then totally blocked contact after that. If you can stand it, offering to assist the transition for a week or two might be worth doing but it is a bad idea to not be able to throw all your energy into the new job. The first two months on a new job you should be ready to go above and beyond and it just takes some time to ramp up and learn the new norms and practices — so distracting yourself with old job can hurt new job. Did you leave materials to assist the transition? If not, spending the rest of today doing that i.e. creating a file with passwords, filing secrets, status of current project, any unresolved issues etc etc and leaving that file on your desktop and also in your physical desk drawer so you can reference it in your resignation may help create less resentment. i.e. immediate resignation Plus. I have left a file titled ‘transition’ on my computer desk top and a hard copy in my top drawer that provides key information needed for transition in this position. It includes, passwords for my computer and X files, a list of the projects I was working on and their status at this time and where the names of the files on my computer, a list of routine activities I complete for the office each morning [maybe you get mail, or make coffee, or make sure the copier has paper, or order supplies — whatever someone will have to pick up] and two client issues that will have to be dealt with in the near future. The office key is in the file with the transition information.’ something like that. i.e. I gotta go but here is the information you need so this doesn’t inconvenience you. If at all possible make it a clean break so you can throw yourself into the new position (and never leave again without giving proper notice)

          1. Destroyer of Worlds, Empress of Awesome*

            Well, to be honest, this is only the end of my second week. As I said in last week’s open thread, I had just started this job on 4/2 and there are a lot of hinky things going on (construction company with no worker’s comp ins., allowing unlicensed drivers to drive the company trucks, he hasn’t filed taxes since 2012, five company name changes in less than 10 years) and after the whistleblower job, I am just not interested in working for a company with this many problems.

            The notice issue is what is bothering me because I have never done this before but I have zero investment here (9 days working here total). While I would love to leave a file with transition documents, I am handicapped by the fact that I don’t know most of the passwords. The filing is handled by the bookkeeper who used to be in my position (and now only works nights) and she refused to train me last Saturday. I *literally* have almost no knowledge about things around here except for the files I created.

            So while I appreciate your concern about “never leave again without proper notice” it just isn’t possible because I haven’t even been here two weeks.

            1. Not One of the Bronte Sisters*

              If you have almost no institutional knowledge, then you have no reason to feel guilty about making a clean break. Do not offer to do any more work for them! I am highly suspicious from what you’ve said that this company is doing a lot of illegal things and you do not want to be caught up in any future investigations. I am a lawyer and I have done a lot of compliance investigations. Leave! Now. Don’t look back.

              1. Elizabeth West*

                Yeah, if you haven’t even been there two weeks, don’t feel bad about it.

                DO NOT offer to work for them at night. If they ask, say, “I’m sorry, but I need to focus on going forward now. Thanks for understanding.”

                1. Destroyer of Worlds, Empress of Awesome*

                  After reading the comments here, I’m not going to offer that at all. And I’m going to do my best to just move on and not feel bad about it. Thanks for you advice!!! (I always like your comments, Elizabeth, because you sound a lot like me….)

              2. Destroyer of Worlds, Empress of Awesome*

                After last year’s compliance nightmare with the startup that fired me for being a whistleblower, my radar was beeping almost immediately when I walked into this office. My blood pressure has been slightly elevated and I’m still recovering mentally from the clustershtupp last year. I so appreciate your input and advice! Thank you!

            2. animaniactoo*

              9 days? Quitting without notice is fine. “This is not working for me, I’m sorry. I hope you manage to fill the position soon.” They’ll go back to juggling it exactly as they were before you walked in the door.

              That said…. if your new company is not comfortable giving you enough room to give notice to your old employer…. something is wrong with your new company. The only situation in which I can see that not being true is that you told them you were between jobs and had indicated that you were available to start immediately, and they need someone to start immediately.

              1. Destroyer of Worlds, Empress of Awesome*

                Well, the resume the new company was working off of was submitted to them before I got this job and I just never told them I was working so that’s kind of a “My bad.” I interviewed with them yesterday so had already made up my mind that I would bail on this job once I got an opportunity. Really, it was just a timing thing made to look worse by me because I didn’t have this job on my resume (and now I have no intention of putting it on there!).

            3. The Man, Becky Lynch*

              I missed last week’s post…

              This guy is scummy and you just need to leave him in the dust. Seriously, don’t extend yourself to someone you’ve known all of 9 days!

              1. Destroyer of Worlds, Empress of Awesome*

                That’s what I’m going to do. The comments here have helped me wrap my head around leaving with no notice.

            4. zora*

              yeah, no, these people are crazy and doing super illegal stuff.
              Don’t feel bad at all, they will deal. The bookkeeper knows how everything works, they won’t be left in the lurch on anything.

              Send the email, put it out of your mind, and move on with your life. Even if they are mad at you, it has no bearing on you, you aren’t going to want to work for them again or need a reference from them. LET IT GO!!!

            5. Michaela Westen*

              Just leave info about the files you created and anything else you were assigned, and leave it at that.

            6. Auntie Social*

              I’d throw in “bookkeeper refused to train me so I don’t know how I’m supposed to move forward”. Or “bookkeeper wouldn’t train me so I’m out of here”. That tells me everything, and you’re fine leaving guilt-free.

    3. NACSACJACK*

      You’re not ghosting him, you’re tendering your resignation to take on a new employer. It’s his job to fill your position after you leave. As for working nights, keep in mind your own work-life balance. You are starting a new job with a new company with different expectations and possibly different technology. You’re going to be learning a lot and stressed to the max. Can you spare the energy?

      1. Destroyer of Worlds, Empress of Awesome*

        I figure it would be a couple of hours max per night, and I don’t have family or any plans ever. I usually go home from work, get changed and watch crap that I’ve DVRed. I play with the cats, feed and water them and go to bed. I could make the sacrifice for a bit, especially if it involves extra money. (Still struggling to get back on top of things financially…I’m still trying to recover from that whole cardiomyopathy mess in July.)

        1. Artemesia*

          What you do now, may not be what you do with a new job where you may have to spend extra time learning the new things to shine in your job. I have never taken on something new that didn’t require a lot more time than the thing I did before, until I had mastered the new stuff. And you want to make a really strong impression during the first couple of months on the new job. If they see you as Duncan the Wonderhorse right off the bad then you have tremendous grace for whatever screw ups lie down the road.

        2. MayLou*

          Re: extra money – you’ve only worked there for two weeks, right? I’m assuming you haven’t even been paid your regular amount yet. I would not be remotely surprised to find that they dragged their feet about paying you for the time you have worked, and certainly wouldn’t count on them paying you once they know you’re quitting.

          I have just sent an email quitting a job I only got last month, for which I haven’t yet been paid “because the invoice didn’t arrive”. I would have quit anyway, because I got a new job (I got a new job!!!) but the fact I’d not been paid just stiffened my resolve.

          1. Destroyer of Worlds, Empress of Awesome*

            Actually, the pay periods end on Thursday and we get paid that Friday. So today, I asked him if I could take today’s pay in this week’s check because I have a car repair (not true but….) so I’ve been paid all the way through today!

            But even if I wasn’t, I’d be down to small claims court filing that lawsuit so fast heads would spin. I’d go for interest and court costs. And, from what I’ve seen in his previous (and current) lawsuits, he just doesn’t show up so the opposing party automatically wins without having to put on a case. But it’s moot since I’ve been paid!!!!!

        4. wondHRland*

          Don’t do it. Just leave, make it a clean break and cut off all contact. You haven’t been there long enough to “owe” them anything,and if things are really hinky as you say, by staying to help, you may be setting yourself up as the scapegoat.

        5. Samwise*

          No, don’t keep working for them. Nine days? that’s under two weeks! animaniactoo ‘s script is perfect.

          You need to separate yourself from the unethical/ethical borderline nonsense going on at that job. You haven’t even been there long enough to be able to get a reference; you don’t even have to put it on your resume.

          And also: It doesn’t matter what you have to do in the evenings now. Better ways to spend your free time: learning stuff for your new job. Resting up so that you are refreshed and energized for your new job.

          1. Destroyer of Worlds, Empress of Awesome*

            Agreed and agreed. I just needed cooler heads to help me think this through. I was very conflicted this morning, hence my post. As always, the commentariat here pulled through and helped me figure this thing out. I hate that my last couple of jobs have been so….weird…..because it has messed up my mind as far as what is normal and feeling guilty about things I shouldn’t feel guilty about. Y’all keep me grounded!!!!!

    4. Kathenus*

      Echoing Sara’s comment. It sounds like you are talking about leaving your current job and feeling bad that they will be short-staffed until they hire someone else to fill your role. If you are giving appropriate notice, this is NOT ghosting, not in the slightest. If you just don’t show up one day at old job, and start at new job, that would be ghosting. But from your post it seems you are a thoughtful, responsible employee so I don’t believe that’s what you’re referring to.

      This is discussed often on AAM, people leaving is a normal part of business. Yes, it sometimes negatively impacts the employer. Yes, some managers are idiots who take it badly and try to make you feel as if you’re doing something wrong. But the majority of business accept it as a regular occurrence in any company.

      So give appropriate notice, do what you can to ease the transition for whoever they hire and for your boss in the meantime, and move on to your new job without guilt or worry. Good luck!

      1. Kathenus*

        OK, so I’ve seen your follow up. Quitting without notice isn’t great, but in my opinion it’s not the same as ghosting either. Given what you’ve been dealing with health-wise, maybe you can apologize for not giving notice, mention if there are circumstances that may have caused that (health, something with the new role), and acknowledge the fact that this is an inconvenience to them. Then it’s really up to you if you want to offer to do a ‘little’ in the interim to help out. If you do want to do that, I’d suggest making it more specific – such as “I’d be able to work 1-2 hours an evening on week days for two weeks to help. Don’t leave it open ended.

        TLDR – apologize for the lack of notice, explain the reason(s) if that makes sense, and then your call if you want to help out but if so suggest you make it very specific and close-ended.

    5. The Man, Becky Lynch*

      You have to do what’s right for you.

      Are you actually thinking about giving no notice? Is that what you mean by ghosting him? Just not showing up???

      That’s no good but you shouldn’t feel bad about giving your resignation. Even if it’s less than the 2 weeks, meaning you say “today is my last day”. That way he doesn’t assume you just cut and run to the tropics with a few of his blank checks!

      1. The Man, Becky Lynch*

        Also don’t worry about him. You do the books? So you’re worried he’ll be in the lurch because there’s no backup? That’s what temp agencies are for.

        Heck my mechanic once had his bookkeeper walk out on him [long story short, they were in a relationship and she was…over it…]. So you know what he did? Showed up at my office door asking me to cut his payroll for him. I helped him out for a few months until he hired someone full time. He will be fine, seriously.

    6. CatCat*

      Congrats on the new job!!

      Just put in your notice today. You know you’re not giving two weeks, which isn’t the greatest, but you already know the guy is shady and you’ve only been there a short time so were you ever really going to need him professionally anyway?

      “Boss, [today/yesterday/whatever day it was] is my last day. I know this is really short notice, but a great opportunity fell in my lap and they need me to start right away on Monday.”

      If you think he would try to sabotage you, wait until the end of the day and just don’t give any details about the job. Just walk away.

      Focus your energy on your new job and your life, and don’t offer to put in any more time working for a shady verbal abuser!

    7. Jen in Oreogn*

      You have worked there less than two weeks, and there have already been problems. I think you are well within professional norms to say/text/email “Thank you for this opportunity, but this is not going to work out and today is my last day. I am sure that you will be able to find someone that will be a better fit quickly. Kindest regards, Destroyer/Empress.” By making the break quick and absolute, he might not even have to start a candidate search from scratch, although even if he does, that is not your problem or responsibility. My sincerest best wished on your new job!

    8. Madge*

      Your desire to leave this job as professionally as possible is honorable. And you can, but professionalism can also include extenuating circumstances like illegal activity, pending start dates, and bosses who yell. This is a bridge that was likely going to burn from the other end anyway. I can’t imagine the guy you describe ever giving you a good reference. Do your best, but make a clean break of it. And a firm quit date with no moonlighting looks better to auditors or whomever takes a microscope to the books when he gets caught. Good luck with your new job.

      1. Destroyer of Worlds, Empress of Awesome*

        Most excellent points and thank you so much for your input. He has done some weird stuff when employees leave. Two years ago, a girl walked out and left a resignation letter. 1 1/2 hours later, he reached out to the leasing agency and told them he was firing her because her work was awful. It was like “You can’t quit! I’m firing you!!!!!!!!” Stupid. She was able to collect unemployment.

        The other day, he chastised me for asking the agency what our payroll dates were (different agency, we hadn’t started with them yet). He jumped on my case, said it looked unprofessional (communication). Then, literally two minutes later, he sent an email to the rep with 6 F bombs and 3 s&it bombs. But I’m unprofessional. Alrighty then!!

    9. Nita*

      Ahh congratulations! And that’s not ghosting, that’s just quitting with no two-week notice. And with the info you posted below, (1) this company is not a paragon of professionalism, (2) this is probably not a bridge you would care much about burning, and (3) you don’t want tojeopardize your new job by bit starting when they need you. So, IMO, it’s for e to quit by email and not look back.

      1. Nana*

        In the Olden Days (before computers), I left a job by calling my employer at home (at 4PM on Sunday), after a miserable first week on the job. He was annoyed…too bad!

  21. Isa Belle*

    Bank in 2017, Alison published a letter and some updates from someone who was jealous of her employee’s looks and took it out on her. She ended up getting fired and sued. In the updates she mentioned moving home, getting therapy and getting sober. That letter stuck with me more than any other letter ever published here. I just want to let that letter writer know that I think of her all the time and am rooting for her (and judging by the supportive comments left by others I am not the only one). I just wanted to post and send well wishes because her 2 year sobriety anniversary has just passed. I hope you are doing well.

    1. Mrs Gellar*

      Seconded. Good vibes to her. I thought the lawsuit and getting run out of her job was terribly unfair to her. Hopefully she has bounced back and found something better.

    2. kittymommy*

      I remember this letter too and I remember all the wonderful support she got from here when she sent in the update(s) – I think there was a couple of them. The grace and self-reflection and the work that the LW was doing on her own self was amazing and rather inspiring.

      1. Destroyer of Worlds, Empress of Awesome*

        The responses to that letter let me know I was in a safe place and it’s a-ok to not be perfect here on AAM. The commentariat here is so wonderfully supportive……..

        And I also hope the LW is doing well with her sobriety and that life is looking really good for her now.

    3. WellRed*

      I don’t think she got sued? Just that the employee consulted a lawyer. I truly hope she’s doing better and she sounded very self-aware which is a great start, but she was horribly unfair to her employee, to the point a client felt compelled to say something. I’d love an update!

      1. Another Sarah*

        I’m not sure if she was sued or not, but she was advised by her own lawyer to pay a settlement because the overwhelming evidence of her wrongdoing was so much that she would have badly lost a lawsuit. Her former company also paid a settlement, while allowing the affected employee to keep working there. I also hope she is doing better. But the facts were clear enough that she had to pay a settlement.

    4. Not A Manager*

      I also think of her often. She turned a very difficult mistake into an opportunity to get healthier. IIRC, in addition to addressing addiction issues, she made some other really healthy changes in her life. I was struck by her determination to confront her issues and not just paper them over, even if the process was painful.

  22. Feeling lost*

    How do I follow up with a potential job offer?

    I interviewed for a job back in early March and did fairly well. I did not get the position but the HR rep and the hiring manager reached out to me afterwards to let me know that they were very impressed by me and thought I’d be an ideal candidate for an upcoming temp position. They said that they were still finalizing the job description and that the job posting would be up on their website in a few weeks. The HR rep promised to personally reach out to me about next steps once the job posting is up.

    It’s been almost month since we had this conversation. I’ve been interviewing with other places in the meanwhile, but I’m still very interested in this opportunity (even if it’s a temp job). How do I follow up/How do I phrase my follow up email?

    1. Alianora*

      Hi hiring manager,

      I wanted to follow up and see if there are still plans for the temp position we discussed to be posted soon. I’m still very interested in the opportunity and would love to be considered. (Insert pleasantries based on the specifics of why you would love to be considered/think you’d be a good fit.)

      Sincerely,
      Feeling lost

    2. Not a Real Giraffe*

      Is the posting up on their website yet? If not, they are still probably finalizing the description and all that. “A few weeks” can easily turn into “almost a month” and then some.

      At any rate, I think you’re fine to send the HR person a quick note saying something along the lines of, “I wanted to check in on the status of the Teapot Specialist position that you mentioned was in the works. I’d love to apply if the position is open already.”

    3. The Man, Becky Lynch*

      They kept the door open for you, you should be fine reaching out to your HR contact who promised you that and following up with a “checking in about that temp position you spoke with me about, is there a timeline available for when you plan to have it listed?”

      The “we’ll personally follow up” promise is easy to drop the ball on, believe me, I know all too well. So most people aren’t going to feel imposed upon if you pop back up nudging them about their implied promise.

  23. Llama Llama Diorama*

    The short version: What do you say when management wants to hear how your job’s mission inspires you, personally, but it really doesn’t?

    I’m in a field like public service or nonprofits– we have a great mission that no one can really argue with, like llama health. Great, healthy llamas are better than unhealthy ones. But I don’t have a llama, and llama health doesn’t exactly affect me personally. So while I support the mission, it doesn’t really drive my performance at work. Now, though, leadership has decided that they’re going to have one-on-ones with all employees to find out how llama health really drives us, and I have no idea what to say!

    I’m good at my job, and I do a good job because I like doing a good job and I’m good at my little corner of our department. But I really don’t particularly care in a deep way about llama health. What do I say when they ask? Can I just say that no, llama health isn’t behind everything I do? Or should I just tell them what they want to hear?

    1. JHunz*

      “Llama health may not have any impact on me personally, but I’m really happy to be able to do good work for a good cause.”

    2. seasonal allegories*

      Ugh, I hate when they push this. Are there any knockon effects you can go with? “Oh, no, I don’t have any llamas, but you know, the llama ecosystem really helps keep the waterways full of babelfish and those are so important to me, isn’t it great how everything works together?”

      1. Llama Llama Diorama*

        Yes, of course! I do really care about babelfish, so I just need to remember to pivot in that direction…

        1. MayLou*

          Also, you never know when you or someone you love might find themselves caring for a llama! I unexpectedly adopted a mouse a few years ago (my friend bought her, and THEN realised she was allergic to mice). I hadn’t previously been a fan of mice but little Stilton’s cute face and friendly squeaks when I came home definitely endeared the species to me. I already campaigned for mouse rights and picketed my cats’ attempts at hunting them, but adopting Stilton made it personal ;)

    3. AliP*

      I was kind of in this position in the past. I worked in marketing for a large healthcare system. Very mission oriented and focused, but honestly I just like marketing and thought their marketing department was top rate, doing great work. But in some ways, the mission DID inspire me. I loved that we were a cutting-edge, smart, hard-working department, but there was always an undercurrent that what we do matters and helps people. Helping people is good! I wouldn’t want to do marketing for a tobacco company, for instance, even if it was a great role with great projects. So while healthcare wasn’t what got me going every morning, it did bring me a sense of satisfaction. Now, working in a different industry, I do actually miss it a little bit.

      1. Llama Llama Diorama*

        That’s true, I like being a force for good! I’m worried that won’t be “enough” for this leadership though :/

      2. Emilitron*

        That’s actually a good direction to take it, how it defines the work environment. “Yes, unhealthy llamas are so sad, and what really inspires me is the way our healthy llama mission drives our workplace dynamic. I love being on a team that has so much focus and enthusiasm, and I really think the vision of healthier llamas is what gives us that great cohesion”

    4. CatCat*

      I’d lean toward the path or least resistance here. It’s such a silly thing that I’d be inclined to tell them what they want to hear. Because I don’t want weird looks or a bunch of follow up questions about why I am not personally driven by improving llama health. It’s an easy win vs. possibly irritating follow up over something that doesn’t matter to me.

      I think a scene from the movie “Miss Congenialty” is informative. The contestants are asked what was the most important thing society needed. The only answer the judges or audience wanted was “world peace.” So that is the “right” answer. Just suck give it even if that’s not what you actually believe (in the case of the movie, our hero answered “harsher punishment for parole violators,” but had to quickly follow up with “and world peace” after being met by silence and blank stares.)

      “It’s great to live in a world with healthy llamas.”

      1. RandomU...*

        Agree… this is one of those situations that you just come up with something even if it starts to creep into the white lie category.

        My advice would be to come up with something you’ve learned in your role or while you’ve been at the organization and roll with that.

        “At first I didn’t realize what the impact of healthy llamas had on me personally since I don’t have my own llama, but then I realized that the impact that I could have on healthy llamas has driven me to do more/be better/learn more/etc.”

        In other words, it’s more about how you can help llamas instead of the reason that llamas inspire you. Does that make sense?

        Curious though… what happens if they don’t like your answer? I mean presumably you are doing a good job for the organization. Are they going to recommend llama health reeducation if you don’t answer the way they think you should?

        1. Llama Llama Diorama*

          Heh, no, I don’t think they’ll ship me off to a llama farm for reeducation if I don’t sell my dedication (though that might not be too bad if there were actual llamas)! But TPTB really want dedication to the mission to be in everything we do, so if I’m super honest that I just don’t super care for llama health I could see them just not even knowing how to react.

      2. Llama Llama Diorama*

        That was my exact concern! That I’d be honest and just get crickets. At least I can always use the backup plan of “world peace” if they don’t think any answers are on-mission enough…

    5. Ama*

      So I’m kind of in this boat — I work for a nonprofit that supports research and advocacy for a very specific disease — one that no-one I know suffers from. Several of my coworkers have family members with the disease or are survivors themselves. Or they have educational backgrounds in medical/scientific research which I don’t have either.

      When people ask me how I got to my position and/or why I work here I explain that I like that the work I do is contributing to a positive outcome in the world even if it isn’t a cause that directly affects me or my loved ones. And then I sort of shift the conversation to examples of things I’ve done at work that has either made our organization’s overall work better/easier or had a direct effect on improving things for the patients we work with.

    6. blabla*

      I work at a very mission-driven nonprofit where I am mostly driven by the type of work I do there rather than the specifics of our particular mission. I think if my company asked this, I’d be inclined to be honest about the fact I am drawn to this work more because of the opportunities for skill development if offers than about the ability to contribute to the mission. Which, like you said, is not to say that I think our mission is bad – it’s just not the reason I get out of bed every morning. The reason I would advocate for this more honest approach is because A LOT of nonprofits tend to assume falsely that employees are driven primarily by the mission and that then leads them to make poor business decisions about how to retain good employees. If other factors (like salary, job flexibility, skill development, etc) are what’s actually keeping you in the job, it’s important for them to know that so that they prioritize those things appropriately and don’t try to replace good workplace benefits with experiences that are really only compelling for people who are martyrs for the mission.

    7. Me*

      So *usually* public health things (and government programs in general) do affect you personally if not directly. You just have to do some outward ring thinking to get there. Healthy llams program and you don’t have llamas? Well healthy llamas contribute to society by not spreading communicable llama flu and the health llamas are able to transport more things efficiently. The good of society thing basically. As a member of society you dig healthy llamas because the ripple affect affects you in society.

      Hope that helps.

    9. Existentialista*

      Could you mention the greater value that your actual work brings? Like, “I’m motivated by clarity of communication”, or “I get professional satisfaction out of streamlining processes for office efficiency”, or etc?

      We did an exercise like this at a former employer of mine. Say they were a teapot glue manufacturer. They launched a big campaign around the phrase “We Build”, but instead of saying, “We Build Teapots”, they focussed on the downstream benefits, and said things like “We Build Friendships over Tea” or “We Build Refreshment.” They had each of us nominate a thing we built in our own roles and printed them on the back of t-shirts for us. Then never did anything with the t-shirts, which was disappointing, but I remember that it was very inspiring to come up with our individual words.

    10. ArtsNerd*

      This is interesting to me because I’m hiring right now and I’m looking for a bit of the opposite in a way. I’ve had a couple of applicants talk about how they want the job because we’re a great organization — and we are! But if that’s their only driving motivation I’m really concerned. “You do good things” is only going to get you so far before the actual work you have to do within it comes into play.

      Say my open position is for internal trainings for llama breeders. I talked to a candidate who has less overall experience than many of the applicants, but she is currently doing internal trainings for facilities maintenance and told me: “Facilities maintenance was never going to be my passion, but I’m really enjoying the work I do–putting together the presentations, interacting with the staff, even compiling the evaluations which isn’t everyone’s cup of tea–and honestly? I’m a bit geeky about all the things I’m learning about building maintenance, which is something I never gave a lot of previous thought to.” She has some existing experience interacting with llamas, which absolutely helps, but this answer was exactly what I like to hear. She likes being a trainer as much as she likes llamas.

      1. ArtsNerd*

        Forgot the “answer to your question” bit —

        You can talk about how much you love the content of your work, and that it’s extra special to be doing something that is so fulfilling to you in service of the mission which is so important [in general] because llama wellbeing serves everyone for [reasons].

  24. GinnyPig*

    Coming out at work

    I want to thank everyone who commented on the LGBTQ thread last week. I came out to some colleagues and it went well! Thanks for the advice.

  25. This Librarian*

    I’ve been feeling really stuck in my job recently. Bored out of my mind even when given new assignments and not feeling like I want to advance to management, which is the only way forward in my field (public libraries). I need a real change of scenery, but I don’t even know where to start with thinking about a career change. I am in my mid-thirties with a very narrow set of skills that I don’t think would translate to a lot outside of libraries, which I’m getting sick of really quickly. New technologies and creative fields are of interest but the idea of going back to school is daunting as a single woman without a partner to help out.

    Really, at this point I don’t know where to go. anyone did a complete switch of career at some point, and where did you start your journey?

    1. Default Font Size*

      Areas you could consider switching to, without going back to school
      Competitive Intelligence.
      Research for Litigation
      Records Management/Contracts Management
      Private Investigation

        1. ArtsNerd*

          Yeah I’m wondering if there’s a good way to transition to a different type of library that can get you experience and networks that are closer to what you’d like to do.

          I think it also depends on what you do within the library. Someone who helps run the 3d printing lab or other less-traditional programs might have more wiggle room than the person who is (showing my ignorance of library org structures here) the dewey decimal specialist.

          1. Seeking Second Childhood*

            True. I hadn’t even thought about the bookbinding department — it makes me think of printing houses.
            A large printing house could use both the physical skills AND the file management skills of a librarian with bindery experience.

    2. Michaela Westen*

      The administrative skills could translate to almost anything. You are proficient at keeping things organized and being able to find them whenever needed. You are proficient at research. You are probably good at figuring things out, which could lead to work in analysis or research or general administration.
      You might also be proficient at writing, which could lead to work as a writer or editor.
      You could work at the library of a law firm, or a medical school or hospital, or are there other specialties that have libraries?
      You could work at a company that provides research and/or writing to an industry… I know someone who was a newspaper editor for a long time, and now he’s an editor for a web company that provides research and support to attorneys.
      So maybe look into transitioning to a field that interests you with these!
      Also don’t go to school unless you have to. Of *course* the colleges want you to think you need another degree to transition! Don’t go to school unless you’ve heard from at least 10 *employers* that you must have a degree.
      If you do go to school, make sure you get the degree requirements in writing before you start. Good luck!

    3. Dr. Anonymous*

      I had a huge change. Here’s one thing that happened. I was driving down the highway with my then husband and we passed a Powerball lottery billboard. He said thoughtfully, you know, if I won the lottery, I’d be doing what I’m doing right now. What would you be doing?” And one of the things that came into my head was, “Oh, I’d go to med school, but I’m too old.”

      And then later (took a while) I went to med school after I found out a lot of people older than I am were doing it. I got divorced along the way and put my damn self through school and it was FINE.

      So what would you be doing if you won the lottery?

      1. This Librarian*

        Thank you. This is a bit late, but your comment especially resonates with me. Although everyone had some really good ideas, I feel like I need to get away from anything too close from what I’m already doing, and you showed me it’s actually not completely impossible. I don’t know yet the answer to your question, but I’ll certainly be thinking about it seriously.

        1. Dr. Anonymous*

          I hope this helps! I will tell you that when I realized I was going to head into med school as a divorcee with no safety net, I was good and scared. I was lucky I got to decide on med school first, thinking I had the safety net, and then decide again to go on without it. It’s fine to be scared. Dream first, investigate second, decide third. Have fun! You have to enjoy the journey, because a complete career change takes a long time.

  26. New Job Nellie*

    Hi! I am starting a new job next week (!!! Thank you Alison for all the advice) and it’s my first real office jobs (prior work was campaigns//internships) any tips??

    1. Amber Rose*

      Get enough sleep the night before your first day, and eat some kind of breakfast. The rest is just listening, learning and doing your best. You’ll do great.

      1. Qwerty*

        Also, start your work sleep routine this weekend to help ensure you are able to get enough sleep! A recent letter had a bunch of people explaining how nerves and excitement tend to through off their sleep schedule during the first week of a new job, so make sure that you’re catching up on sleep this weekend in case that happens to you.

    2. Alianora*

      Accept invitations if people invite you out, and maybe consider asking some of your coworkers to grab coffee once in a while.

      Don’t take sides right away if people come to you with gossip.

      1. Tina Belcher's Less Cool Sister*

        “Don’t take sides right away if people come to you with gossip”

        Not only that, but take everything you hear in the first few months with the biggest grain of salt you can find. Oftentimes drama llamas will latch on to a new hire and “warn” them or “share their side of the story” before the newbee has a chance to form their own opinions.

        Story time: In a previous job I had a coworker who *immediately* started inviting me to lunch and coffee off site, and at first I thought it was great to have a friend in a new job in a new town. But quickly she started filling these conversations with stories about our boss, which were always peppered with phrases like “isn’t that awful?” “Can you believe he did/said that to me?” “Don’t you agree that (whatever) is a problem?” I didn’t realize what she was doing until another new person joined our team about a month after I did, and she refused to go along with Drama Llama. “Don’t you agree our (org issue) is worse than other companies?” was met with “No, actually, I think it’s about the same and it works well”. I’ve always admired the second coworker for having that mature of a response.

        Oh, and the gossiping coworker was fired two months after I started. NEVER allow yourself to get drawn into interpersonal drama or gossip, especially right away.

    3. Ama*

      Don’t be afraid to ask questions, even if it seems like you “should” know something. Especially if your manager and coworkers have been at that employer for a while they may have forgotten that you won’t know, say, that you are always supposed to book the conference room even if you only need it for 15 minutes, or that your account for a particular software doesn’t just come automatically set up on your computer, IT has to be specifically requested to set it up, etc.

    4. The Ginger Ginger*

      Spend your first couple months soaking things in. Pay attention to the people around you to gauge standard of dress, office culture, dynamics, etc without forming any value judgements/opinions (if you can) at the beginning. Keep in mind they hired you because they wanted you, but that you ARE the new one, so you’re main goal at the moment is to learn. You don’t want to jump straight into expressing opinionated feedback, try to change all-the-things, taking sides in office politics, etc without making sure you really have a full understanding of what is happening in your new workplace and WHY things are working that way.

      I always think of the OP who wrote in because when she was a new person in the office, a female coworker expressed to her that Coworker was being mistreated because she was a woman in the field. OP offered to be a sounding board/facilitate conversations etc only to find out Coworker was a hot mess and it had nothing to do with gender AT ALL. If she’d hung back a little longer to get the lay of the land, OP wouldn’t have ended up in an uncomfortable situation like that.

      Congrats! You’re going to be great!

      1. Katefish*

        Don’t worry if the days drag at first… Just enjoy the slower pace. Once you’re trained, they’ll probably keep you busy all day!

  27. NotaPirate*

    Has anyone done midpoint reviews before? I got asked to do one for my boss. I’m concerned about level of anonymous. Who ends up putting these together? If theyre only asking a few people is it obvious then who said what?

    1. Nessun*

      In a smaller group, I’ve found it fairly obvious who said what, even when anonymity is required. It’s possible to disguise your writing style/speech patters, I suppose – but I’ve never come across anyone who’s bothered to do so. I’ve made it a policy to only say something in such a review that I would be comfortable saying face to face – it can be unfortunate, in the case of a bad or toxic boss, to not be able to be honest, but it saves me the stress of wondering if someone will read my comments and say “OH I know Nessun said that…and now I’m gonna have some comments of my own for HER.” Paranoia…sad, but true.

      1. NotaPirate*

        Thanks for the heads up, this is really good to know. Yeah Boss only has like 8 direct reports and he’s seen my writing a lot so…

  28. A Nonny Mouse*

    I am in the middle of my job search at the end of a PhD and the process is sloooow, and usually applications just disappear into the app system void. But I was recently invited to reapply for a position that I initially didn’t make it past the first interview stage after a failed search. Do I redo my materials or submit the same ones? I think the weakness in the initial interview was that I simply didn’t have the experience as an independent researcher that they wanted (it is a non-academic job), so I don’t know how I could pitch myself much differently. But it seems weird to submit the same ones over again.

    1. gecko*

      Look over your resume, at least. And I’d say rewrite your cover letter to reflect that you’re reapplying.

    2. Yorick*

      Update your cv if there is anything new, and look at the cover letter in case there’s something you’d word differently now. But otherwise, use the old ones.

    3. LivingMyLife*

      Sometimes a failed search results in the hiring committee having to reevaluate what qualifications and years of experience they are looking for the second time around. It’s a good sign that they are giving you a second chance. I would review the resume and cover letter from the prospective of your first interview and what you found out about the position and the organization.

  29. seasonal allegories*

    US federal resume question: has anyone used the outline format for it? I was recently in a training with someone pushing hard for us to use it, but I was wondering what the perspective was from someone who didn’t make money off of it. It seems a bit complicated to me and I don’t like that it uses paragraphs instead of bullet points. Am I off base?

    1. Not All*

      From what I’ve seen being on hiring panels, the format for federal applications is in flux right now. The older, more senior hiring officials still expect thing to be in narrative format. The younger hiring officials generally hiring for entry level positions expect things to be in bullet or outline format. As long as you are consistent with your style and can get maximum information in there, I don’t think right now most hiring officials will hold one style or another against you. (I only know 2 people who have Very Strong Feelings about it and do favor candidates who use their preferred style…but they have opposite preferences soooooooooo, yeah, not helpful.)

      (I’ve been with the assorted federal land management agencies for a couple decades…can’t speak to what others like DOT or Commerce prefer)

    2. Policy Wonk*

      It depends on the job, but the lower the level, the higher the volume of applicants. With a high volume of applicants the first sort of resumes is likely done by computer and the standard format can help with that. Recommend you do a new resume for each application, and that you have the resume align with the stated requirements for the job. Given the computer sort, you should use the exact language from the announcement as much as possible.

    3. Cog in the Machine*

      Everyone I’ve ever spoken to in my agency has said to build your own resume and upload that. The online vfc system seems to be a holdover from needing 3 pages of KSAs.
      I will say to double check that everything is actually uploaded! The system needs a major overhaul, and it seems to differ depending on which agency you’re applying for.

      1. Not All*

        This is really interesting! In my last several agencies, the advice was the exact opposite…use the USAJobs resume system because that’s what everyone is used to reading.

        1. Cog in the Machine*

          Lol. To be completly fair, we tend to shuffle around in-state and/or stay in one position for a long time.

    4. Paris-Berlin-Seoul Express*

      I use my own resume which I uploaded. I had previously used the pre-formatted one but it does hinky things when you try to format things. However, make sure when you upload your own that it includes the required information, which is a little more extensive than you would normally put into a resume.

      1. nym*

        …a little more extensive indeed. I just uploaded a 13-page version this week and cringed every step of the way because it violates all resume-writing norms EXCEPT the “but federal CVs are different” one.

  30. SinSA*

    Just had a phone interview for a recruiting position at BigLaw in DC. It sounds very much right up my alley, and the woman I spoke with would actually be my boss. What I thought would be a 20 minute conversation turned into almost an hour! I *think* she wants to bring me in for the next round of interviews, in person (there would be 2 more rounds, total). Any suggestions/tips on how to knock their collective socks off?

    1. Not One of the Bronte Sisters*

      Ascertain what distinguishes this BigLaw firm from other BigLaw firms, or what they would like to distinguish it. Do they want to expand their expertise in a particular area of law, like Health Law or Environmental Law? Or create a department that they have never had, like Patents and Trademarks? Are they committed to diversity in hiring? Also, talk about what you would ask candidates to ascertain their real capabilities. Even if they are third year law students, they are adults and they have some life experience and some skills. Say, “What was the most interesting legal issue you’ve ever dealt with in your practice? Not the most interesting business issue, but the most interesting legal one” or “If the managing partner asked you to find out xyz legal research topic, how would you go about doing that?” Find out if the firm asks for writing samples from candidates and, if they do, what are they looking for? Often the issue in legal recruiting for BigLaw is that, to candidates, all BigLaw firms look the same and, to BigLaw firms, all candidates look the same. Find the differences.

  31. Estrella*

    Hi all! I have the opposite question from a recent letter here.

    On Wednesday, someone hit my car in the parking lot at work — no major damage, just a door-ding, but there is a small dent. I didn’t see it happen and probably wouldn’t have noticed, but someone else witnessed it and told me about it.

    Because there was a witness, I know who it was who did it. I don’t interact with this woman much, but it’s a smallish company so I know who she is. She hasn’t said anything to me, even though I’ve passed her a couple of times since this happened. I went to HR to ask what to do; HR watched the video footage, saw it happen, and confirmed who did it. (I mentioned the witness, but they didn’t want their name involved, so kept them anonymous.)

    So now… what do I do? Do I approach her? I don’t know if the damage is even worth fixing (it’s very minor), and I don’t want to just be like I Know What You Did, but…. I’m not sure. My partner keeps saying “right is right and fair is fair,” which helps me not at all. Any advice, commentariat?

    1. Kathenus*

      I’d decide if you want it repaired or not first, so that you know what you want the outcome to be. And yes, I’d definitely go to her. You could say that you noticed a dent, and HR was able to identify her car from the video footage. Then say what you want – ‘I want the dent repaired’, or ‘I don’t need a repair but would have appreciated your acknowledging the incident and leaving a note’ or whatever. Did HR indicate an interest, or willingness, in being involved? But if it’s me, it doesn’t have to be done confrontationally, but I would want to call her out for not having left a note or gone to HR to report it.

    2. Lemon Zinger*

      When people damage your car, they need to be held accountable for it. I would approach her, say you know it was her from the footage, and that you need her insurance information. HR may need to be part of the conversation.

    3. Anono-me*

      It is perfectly reasonable to expect the person who damaged your vehicle to pay for fixing it.

      Since you are undecided, you may find it helpful to go to a car dealership, and ask about what the impact on trade in/resale is from the damage.

      You don’t want to find out a year or two later when you go to trade this car in that you’re going to take a big hit due to the damage.

      If there is a significant financial impact, I would definatly ask the person who hit your car to take care of it. (You might find it more diplomatic to pretend that you think the other person didn’t realize that they hit your car .)

    4. irene adler*

      I agree with your partner. You need to approach her. She may not realize you are the owner of the car she dented. And there’s the possibility she did not realize she actually hit your vehicle.

      The damage may look minor, but are you sure nothing inside the door sustained damage? Car bodies are designed to crumple to take the energy of a major impact. This helps protect passengers from injury. But this protection might be compromised if the body is dented. You’ll need to take it to a professional to be sure everything’s okay.
      If nothing else, maybe your insurance representative could intervene? Or, can they make the determination that the dent is purely cosmetic?
      Or, to soften things, offer the woman the chance to make things right without involving either party’s insurance. Then involve the insurance if she’s uncooperative.

      Hit and run could get her into some trouble (depending upon where this occurred).

    5. The Man, Becky Lynch*

      She doesn’t say anything to you because she assumes she got away with it or didn’t realize it caused damages, most likely she just assumes she got away with it. You weren’t there and she didn’t feel obligated to report it to you and let you make the call if you wanted it repaired or what. Perhaps her insurance is even lapsed or in danger of being cancelled if she gets another claim.

      But you have video evidence, you have what the insurance companies will need to find fault. The witness, that’s not really too concrete to be honest, we could all “witness” Judy hit Nancy’s car but even if you swear to it under oath, it’s really not much if the other person can plausibly deny it.

      Approach her, ask her for her information. If she has issues with it, she can also see the video and the corresponding damages, it’s pretty cut and dry.

      If it were just someone’s word for it, I’d let it go or file under a hit and run incident with your insurance, most policies have that included but of course that dings your rates if you opt for filing that claim [in this case it’s not worth it but if she wrecked your door or something, then it of course would be!

      1. CastIrony*

        I’d appreciate knowing about it if I were in the crasher’s shoes, but back when I was learning to park (parallel), I’d trade paint and run away, mortified, so perhaps the crasher is as mortified as I am.

        1. The Man, Becky Lynch*

          Oh I’m not perfect. I don’t leave my information for anyone if it’s a parking lot of strangers but if I know who I hit, I’ll tell them. I let a neighbor know once because I didn’t want them matching their ding with paint transfer and knowing I was up to no good! But I’ve dinged a door or twelve in my life in a parking lot and scurried away.

          It’s not safe to just leave your information on someone’s windshield and I only hangout so long to see if someone appears before just going on my way.

          My car has had the same treatment over the years. I’ve got dings and scrapes I sure didn’t do myself! And not a single note with insurance information. Not that I care to be carless for even half a day while they fix the paint on my beater mobiles!

          1. Fluff*

            Disagree here , that’s not cool. If you damage a car, you leave your info (if it is your fault). I’ve left my email info on oopses twice and got contacted once with a “don’t worry about it.” Doing a wrong to a stranger isn’t ok. Sorry if this sounds harsh, and I truly don’t mean the minor stuff where a bit if spit and rubbing and it is gone.

            It’s not ok to stick to someone you don’t know just because you don’t know them. Leave a public email that you check and go from there. Please Do the right thing even when no one’s watching.

    6. Rose Tyler*

      I would approach her and play along like of course she must not have realized she made contact with your car, but there is a dent and HR was able to review tapes and confirm it was her, so now you need her insurance information.

    7. Estrella*

      Thanks, everyone, for the replies! I didn’t get a chance to talk to her today; I think I’ll go this weekend and get a quote on how much the repairs would be, just to find out if it’s worth it. I think my wording may have been bad in the first comment — it wasn’t really a *hit*. Her door swung out and hit my door on a super-windy day.

      @Anono-me, I’m not too worried about resale — my partner and I both drive cars until they die. :)

      But @Irene Adler, I hadn’t thought about internal damage. It’s a small enough dent that I doubt there’s anything wrong, but I’ll definitely get it checked out on that alone.

      I’ll update later (or next week) if there’s anything interesting to report! Fingers crossed that everything goes smoothly…

  32. Bee's Knees*

    We had fire training this week, and during one of the sessions, one of the employees very proudly informed everyone that he has put out two fires since he started working here. And he only started one of them.

    1. Emily S.*

      Just read your blog post. I hope you can get back to a normal schedule soon!

      I consider myself a morning person, but even I would NOT be ok with having to get to work at 5:30 am.

      1. Bee's Knees*

        It’s not my favorite. Especially since with the way the shifts run, I can’t work 8 hours from whenever I get in and then go home. This week has been a lot of 10+ hour days. The thought of the overtime and ice cream are the only good parts of this week.

    2. I Work on a Hellmouth*

      Did we Freaky Friday, that sounds like something that would happen over in my neck of the woods.

      1. Bee's Knees*

        I mean, maybe? It is storming here. And we have some downright crazy people. It’s not going to be fun when we switch to a new payroll system soon. I may send some people your way in hopes that the hellmouth will eat them.

          1. Bee's Knees*

            We’re sending a few people to a sister plant to help out, and I really wanted to conscript some people, just put them in a car and send them off. My boss said that was not allowed. Spoil sport.

    3. Cercis*

      What do you do? I’ve never started nor put out a fire at work (well, other than that time the popcorn decided to start burning after it was out of the microwave – one super heated kernel flared up when I opened the bag and air rushed in – but that wasn’t even really a fire, one tiny flame that went out all on its own, but left a major stink).

      1. Bee's Knees*

        I’m in HR at a… teacup manufacturing plant. I’m not sure what the guy did to start the fire, I was afraid to ask. It could have been a microwave issue, or it could have been a machine fire. Parts of the teacups are welded together, and sparks can fly like crazy, so it could have been that.

        1. Seeking Second Childhood*

          BWAHAHAHA!
          I am reminded of someone in our test lab who was the first to power up a new piece of electronics and it went boom. He unplugged it and literally ran out of the building rolling the cart and hollering for someone ahead of him to open the door. Incredibly, he managed to get the thing outside before it started smoking & set off the fire alarms.

        2. Admin of Sys*

          That’s actually reassuring, I was thinking an office and trying to figure out /any/ excuse other than arson for having started a fire.

          1. Armchair Analyst*

            I wonder what happened to the guy using matches in the bathroom to start fires…

    4. Jasmine*

      I have also put out 3 unintentional fires (2 of which I started). But they were all in professional kitchens!

    5. kittymommy*

      For some reason I’m getting deja vu from your previously place on this. It seems like something that would have happened there as well. And at the Hellmouth!

      1. Bee's Knees*

        If there’d been a fire when I worked at the paper, it probably would have been intentional. They did keep it so cold in the winter that I threatened to start a fire in a bucket to keep warm. Here though, I am keeper of the thermostat, and I have a little desk heater.

        1. Seeking Second Childhood*

          Around here, a desk heater near the thermostat will make the rest of the office really really cold…
          Bear in mind my current opinion is that HVAC systems are designed by the devil.

    6. Elizabeth*

      At one place I worked, fire training was practical and we got to actually put out real fires – which meant we had to light them first. So I guess I could say that I have put out a fire – and I lit it. Fire training was fun!!! Now they have an online training programme. Somehow I doubt that is half as effective!!

  33. Paige*

    I work for a program that arranges summer internships for high school sophomores and juniors. We try to make the application process fairly professional—cover letter, resume, letters of recommendation—and give them lots of guidance on what they should include. It’s good practice for real-world job and college applications.

    One of the letters from a teacher was seriously terrible. Not just hastily written or clearly a fill-in-the-blank form letter (we get plenty of those and never hold it against the students). This was potentially damaging, as in, praising the kid for how well he bounced back from failed classes (emotionally—no clue how he bounced back scholastically), mentioning his depression, his struggles for acceptance with his peers, etc.

    I worry that this teacher is also going to be writing this kind of letter for college applications—thinking he’s praising a student when he’s revealing lots of inappropriate details. Would it be overstepping to warn the kid that this is not the sort of thing he should be sending out?

    1. seasonal allegories*

      Can you reply to the teacher? I don’t think the kid has much power in this scenario; when I was doing letters, I didn’t see them before they got sent.

      1. Paige*

        I’ve thought about that–reaching out to the teacher or the school to suggest that they get a little more familiar with the general standards of recommendations. But, private religious school, teacher who I’m sure believes that what he’s doing is atypical but excellent…I’d be worried about the kid feeling the blowback.

        1. seasonal allegories*

          Oy, yeah. I’d wait until after the school year then, if you’re concerned about repercussions on the kid, if that kid was the only one you got a letter for from that teacher.

        2. Elizabeth B.*

          I wouldn’t speak to the student, that puts them in a difficult position and I think the student would be embarrassed that you know this information.
          I’m not sure how contacting the teacher could “blow back” on the student. You could also contact the school’s guidance department. I teach high school and we have had college admission offices call our guidance supervisor to share compliments as well as concerns about teacher letters.
          The guidance department could speak to the specific teacher and communicate to the entire staff that including a student’s medical information (such as depression) is not appropriate.

    2. CTT*

      My first question is whether the student even saw it? The only time I’ve ever seen any letters of recommendation written about me was applying for the bar, and that was unusual for me.

      As to whether to tell him, I know Alison says that references are confidential, but I wonder if it would be totally out of line to tell the school this is what she’s doing? Or at least give them a template “here is what teachers should include in their letters, please avoid discussing X.”

    3. Notthemomma*

      Absolutely!!! The good guidance on what to include would also mean what is good vs what isn’t.

    4. M*

      Worth noting from experience: this is going to be most common for students from backgrounds where opportunities like summer internships or college are a rarity. Schools with lots of students who are applying for things like this will have the resources and capacity to train their teachers to write good cover letters. Schools in underprivileged communities won’t. Even if the student saw the letter, and *knew* it was bad, he may have genuinely had no alternatives from his school – this might literally be the best he could get, not because *he’s* a bad candidate, but because his teachers don’t have the training, time or experience to write good letters of recommendation. (And for a teacher without that training, experience and time: the problems you mention are things they might very conceivably think are *good* things to mention: things that show resilience and maturity.)

      It would be a kindness to (gently) warn the kid, and if you’ve got good resources on how to write letters of recommendation, provide them to the school. But don’t overestimate how much he’s going to be able to do about it.

      And far more importantly: if you want students from diverse and underprivileged backgrounds to have equitable access to the opportunities you organise, I’d spend some time compartmentalising what you hold against students who have letters of recommendation that show poor judgement on the part of their teachers. People with depression, social awkwardness as teenagers, and a history of overcoming temporary setbacks aren’t inherently bad candidates, and while that information might be inappropriate to include, it’s not necessarily a mark against the candidate that their teacher had the poor judgement to do so.

      1. Paige*

        In this case, I don’t think this teacher is the kid’s only option. And we’re not holding it against him for our program–I never actually screen based on the letters, because I’m well aware that not all teachers have the time, interest, or experience to write good ones. We see letters addressed to a different organization, kids’ names misspelled, people accidentally leaving placeholder brackets–that sort of thing happens all the time. But I haven’t seen inappropriate personal details before.

        And while we suggest that they get their letters from teachers or bosses, we don’t require it–I’ll accept a letter from a family friend, a camp counselor, or the person whose lawn you mowed over the summer. Nobody has ever told me that it’s a real hardship to get a letter, but I would work with them if they did, just like I work with them if they don’t have consistent computer access. The main point of the application is that they learn that this is something they’ll have to arrange for themselves eventually, and it’s good practice.

      2. Parenthetically*

        “don’t overestimate how much he’s going to be able to do about it.”

        Exactly. I mean, what the heck are students ever supposed to do about a whackadoodle recommendation letter? In my decade of teaching, students always got recommendation letters from teachers/staff in a sealed envelope or by another method where the student has zero contact with the letter at all. I’d be willing to lay cash money that Billy never saw the letter — and if he did, how is a sophomore or junior in high school supposed to a) know what’s appropriate for a recommendation letter, and b) correct his teacher on something he probably does a lot.

    5. MSW in MA*

      The teacher may not realize what the letter is for exactly, so I would just reach out directly. The overcoming-the-odds letters can be effective for college admissions, so she may be confused. I wrote an essay about my disability for college, but would never mention it in a cover letter! I would explicitly tell the teacher what would be most helpful.

    6. Prof*

      It’s hard to say what the tone or exact content was of this letter, but I would push back a little on some of the assumptions here. Recommendation letters should not always be uniformly positive. If the student has experienced particular challenges, it is the recommender’s responsibility to explain or contextualize this for the reader. It is not uncommon for us to receive or write letters, therefore, that explain a student’s or applicant’s mitigating personal circumstances, which might have resulted in a failing grade, for example, or why their time to degree was longer than usual, etc.

      1. AcademiaNut*

        I think the problem is revealing personal information to a potential employer – a letter writer can talk about the student’s resilience or work ethic in the face of adversity, but they absolutely should not be revealing mental health diagnoses to a stranger! A teacher could reference “difficult personal circumstances” for example, but not “while struggling with clinical depression”, at least not with the student’s explicit, informed consent.

    7. Luna*

      That sounds horrible. If you can reply to the teacher, I would make sure to point out that mentioning such details have no business being in a letter fo recommendations. Especially not something like depression because that could easily fall into the line of revealing sensitive medical information.

      I don’t even like it when LW on this site mention an employee’s/coworker’s/boss’ personal or medical background unless it is absolutely necessary to know or it’s open knowledge – like a boss being open about their medical treatment with their employees. Ones I don’t like is like the ‘best employee quit because I didn’t let her go to her graduation ceremony’ story listed here. That personal background was not important. And, personally, I would have liked to have seen how Alison and the comments had reacted, had that stuff not been mentioned.

      The teacher needs to be told what is accetable in a letter of recommendation — the student being a strong worker; what their strengths are; maybe what their weaknesses are and how they have worked on improving on those. The stuff they listed isn’t. It’s not important, it’s nobody’s business, it can leave a very bad impression (like the letter is supposed to play on someone’s emotions and emotionally influence to pick this person, disregarding actual qualifications), and it can also land them into legal trouble.

  34. Amber Rose*

    I snapped at and insulted a coworker. I was furious, not specifically just about him but rather that what he did is the symptom of a much larger problem that is really frustrating me at work, and also because I am burned out, exhausted and sick. It didn’t help that I’d had a very upsetting doctor’s appointment just before.

    I’m not excusing my actions, just explaining that this isn’t normal for me, it usually takes a LOT to ruffle my feathers enough to get angry. I feel like absolute shit about it, but I’m also afraid if I try to apologize it’s going to come across passive aggressive and angry again, because I’m honestly still mad at that person and having a supremely shitty week.

    Is it OK to just… let it go? I know I owe that dude an apology but I just don’t know if I have it in me to do it properly.

    (For the record, he sent me an email saying he thought he had a class that day but he lost the booking email. I told him “You need to give me more than 15 minutes notice that you lost some information. You’re already late for that class. Manage your shit, I’m not your babysitter.”)

    1. NotMyRealName*

      You can apologize for loosing your temper without apologizing for not fixing his problem. Keep it short – “Bertrand- I apologize for losing my temper at you yesterday. I will try to better in the future. Bernice”

      1. Amber Rose*

        Like, in an email? Not sure that would help. People at this company make a point of deleting my emails without reading them unless they’ve specifically asked me to send them something.

        1. Not Me*

          If you put “Apology” or “I’m sorry” in the subject line do you still think it’ll be deleted without reading?

          I think you can send an email with a subject line making it clear what you’re saying, in the message say that you’re sorry you acted out of character and it affected him. If he doesn’t read it, that’s on him. You still apologized.

          And give yourself a break too. Life happens to all of us and sometimes we crack under the pressure.

          1. valentine*

            If he doesn’t read it, that’s on him. You still apologized.
            I agree. You’re only hurting yourself. I don’t imagine this guy cares, especially since your message was correct: He should be on top of his schedule.

            If you don’t want your blood boiling constantly and you won’t leave, it seems the options are to make peace with either baby-sitting or being in trouble for not baby-sitting.

      2. The Original K.*

        Yeah, I agree – the “manage your shit, I’m not your babysitter” line warrants an apology, IMO. “Bertrand, I’m sorry I snapped at you yesterday.” Keep it simple.

    2. Kathenus*

      Try putting yourself in his shoes, and how would you want the other person to respond. Right now you’re looking at it, understandably, from just your perspective. If someone did the same to you (after you had made an error or asked for something unreasonable), what would you like the other person to do? That can give you an additional bit of insight to decide how to proceed. If it’s me, I take the high road and apologize for the comment, and as NotMyRealName says you don’t need to take on his part of the interaction, just your own tone/words.

      1. Amber Rose*

        People have said that to me. I just feel embarrassed. In his shoes, I would be apologizing to me right now. Which, not super helpful.

        I don’t know. It’s been a couple of days, I can probably just mention it in passing next time I see him I guess.

        1. WellRed*

          When you apologize, which you must, then you can move on from said incident. Otherwise, it’s still hanging there when you see the dude. A simple, “sorry I snapped at you the other day” will suffice.

        2. Kathenus*

          I actually think you knowing that in his shoes you would be apologizing IS super helpful. And WellRed has a great point that if you apologize you can move on and get this out of your mental headspace. I think you’re stressing a lot more about how to react, than the potential stress or embarrassment from a quick apology. Human nature, to be sure, but I think you’ll feel better if you close the book on this.

    3. CupcakeCounter*

      I still have not apologized for my “harsh tone” at a coworker nor to I plan on it. This person was really out of line, did something that was a VERY BIG NO-NO without notifying anyone that “hey when I went to do X I got a blocked notification so I went through my 16 year old notes and found the work around in order to do it” using the “well how was I supposed to know that would impact these other things?” super innocent tone.
      Ummm…maybe because you are the one who trained me on the process and its in the notes I have in your handwriting????
      3 days of very time consuming work that could potentially blow up a year’s worth of financials later, I get a snarky “oh so the meeting is pushed back because you’re behind in your work” comment from her and IT WAS ON.
      Several coworkers send me IM’s and emails telling me how much they enjoyed the take down since this other coworker is a pompous ass.

    4. Me*

      Apologizing is always uncomfortable. There’s no way around it.

      This is the type of stuff that festers and ruins work relationships. We’re all human. The first sentence was fine – the rest was not. I will 99.9% guarantee if you just do the hard thing and pick up the phone or walk to is desk, it will blow over. If you don’t, even if he says nothing, you will always feel weird when you interact with him. And if your like me, you will periodically have your brain remind you about how you were a jerk and didn’t try to fix it and now it’s too late blah blah blah.

      1. Richard*

        Also, it sounds like there’s already a lot of festering and bad relationships here. Apologizing is uncomfortable, but refusing to communicate and holding onto anger and resentment has much worse long-term outcomes, both for the yeller and the yellee.

        1. Amber Rose*

          I communicate constantly. I’m basically now working as a babysitter for a bunch of grown ass adults and none of my pushing back on this has convinced them to take care of their own shit, so I’m at my breaking point. I’m tired of being responsible for everyone else being useless. How hard is it to manage your own effing appointments? But if I don’t mother them and remind them and nag them and they forget, I’m the one in trouble.

          Ugh, I’m getting angry again.

          1. Richard*

            Like I said, a lot of festering here. A real apology can be a release valve, even if it’s to someone who doesn’t really deserve it, and maybe can open up a better type of communication. I know how awful it is to be angry at work all the time, but is it really going to be better if you’re both silently angry all day and start every interaction with that baseline? It sounds like you’re at the boiling point already, do you really need to add more to the fire every day? I sympathize, but I also know how appealing and counterproductive a lot of righteous anger can be.

    5. Parenthetically*

      Just a whole lot of sympathy here! I think apologizing when you are really NOT sorry for the content, only for the tone, is particularly hard, because a real apology shouldn’t have caveats (“I’m sorry I snapped, but you shouldn’t have done XYZ”), but it really does feel like capitulating on the content. I think “Hey, I wanted to apologize for my tone yesterday, I shouldn’t have snapped like that. Rough day! Now about those TPS reports…” might work? Whatever you do, give yourself a segue to a new topic! And you don’t have to come cap-in-hand, either, IMO — it was just a moment of pissiness, you didn’t burn his village to the ground and salt the earth, not even a little bit.

    6. Cows go moo*

      Apologies are difficult for everyone. But it doesn’t need to be a grand speech. I recently snapped at someone who reports to me. The next time I spoke to him I simply said “Hey Bob, I’m sorry I was rude to you about X.” He acknowledged it was okay, and we made up.

      It helps to remember that acknowledging your own wrong is going to help build your professional relationship in most cases. Realistically most people do not apologize even when they need to. So when someone has said sorry to me in the past it actually made me respect them more than before.

    7. Not A Manager*

      As you can tell from my screen name, I’m not a manager. I’m sure the other commenters are correct that you were wrong and should apologize. I, however, do not think you were wrong. Certainly not in the sentiment, although perhaps the tone was a bit iffy.

      I wouldn’t apologize TOO much. I’d send an email with “apology” in the message line, and a one-sentence “I shouldn’t have snapped at you yesterday and I’m sorry that I did.” I hope that by omitting any mention of being sorry that you aren’t his babysitter, or sorry that he needs to manage his own shit, you will be implying that you are not sorry about that. Because you shouldn’t be.

    8. The Rat Catcher*

      My thought is that it’s too soon for an apology. If you think that in a week or two you might be able to give a more sincere apology (for the “manage your shit” comment only – coworker isn’t blameless here), I’d wait until then. I got an apology from a coworker two months later and it still helped our situation.
      If no amount of time is going to help, then I’d agree with the other advice here.

    9. LGC*

      Whoa.

      I’d say that in many, if not most offices, you should apologize for the language you used. (You’re right in that he should know better, but that answer was like taking a flamethrower to a spider web.) But also…this happened this week right? Give yourself the weekend. Right now you’re still probably having a lot of feelings, and that’s why you’re feeling this way where you feel both terrible about what you did AND you’re still angry about his stupidity. You’ll probably be less mad at him on Monday and feel less guilty about telling him off, just because you’re further removed from it.

      I’d actually say to do it in person if you can apologize in person. But maybe that’s my preference. And I think you’ll probably have it in you next week, but even if you don’t…I think you should apologize! If nothing else…from Bertrand’s perspective, you went off on him basically unprovoked (he asked a question that was mildly inconvenient for you, and you responded with profanity directed at him). I can understand how you’re feeling, but if I were Bertrand, I’d have been flustered and confused.

      I hope next week goes a lot better for you (and that you have a short week because of Easter)!

  35. Seeking Second Childhood*

    In search of sound-muffling gizmo recommendations!
    Can anyone recommend over-the-ear hearing protection that does well against low pitched sound…AND has enough room for big ears on a big head? I’m looking for specific models because I’ve spent enough time on this already.
    My department was recently moved into new office space that is right under a very loud HVAC unit. The typical open-office work-related conversations are annoying, but the HVAC is the problem. It’s loud enough that my ears are still ringing when the HVAC shuts off. I brought in my 3M yardwork headset and the HVAC comes through clearly. And even those I only get 30-60 minutes before the squeeze makes my head hurt. I have a really big head and big ears, but ear canals small enough that earplugs & earbuds hurt.
    In a dream world it’ll be a headset with a mouthpiece so I can use it all day as my Skype phone headset!

    1. Aunt Vixen*

      I have small ear canals – can’t use ear buds because they never stay in, though I suppose they’d hurt if I shoved hard enough to get them wedged in there – and can anecdotally recommend that the foam earplugs that claim to be smaller or slimmer are in fact less uncomfortable than regular ones. (And my regular-sized-ear-canal-having husband would affirm that the slimmer earplugs don’t work for him.) https://www.amazon.com/Macks-Slim-Soft-Foam-Earplugs/ (Mack also does a pink “feminine” maybe-softer-slimmer style, but -a- UGH and -b- they don’t actually work as well for me as the purple ones.)

      I also have a deceptively large head (circumference 23″ says the knitter in me), and I’ve been very happy with these headphones: https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B06XW4MCSQ/

    2. foolofgrace*

      Go to a store that sells gun equipment (ammunition, gun cleaning tools) and try on different ear protection. These usually are pretty good at keeping sound out and you can try them out.

    3. CastIrony*

      I don’t know much about headphones.

      However, have you looked at gaming headsets? I have an extremely loud SADES (model sa-902) USB headset that cost me like $30, and the pretty big ears have cushioning. It even has a little remote control for volume and microphone muting!

      I wear mine all day, and they are comfortable for hours before the squeeze.

      Good luck! Tell me how it goes!

    4. Serious Sam*

      We use Peltor Optime 3 at work, I’ve done whole shifts near the 100 tonne arc-furnace with no great difficulty. You can get different diameter ear plugs, or the type that you roll up really small and once in your ear expand to fill the ear canal. E.G. Honeywell Laser Lite. If really noisy, you could wear both, or in-ear headphones under the Peltors.

      1. Seeking Second Childhood*

        Ever hear of “surfer’s ear”? Google it and cringe alongside me…nothing’s going in my ears unless I’m swimming, and then I use children’s earplugs. I could have avoided a lot of ear pain if I’d started using those when I was a child. :(

    6. Howie*

      I use Bose QC20s daily, they’re great at cancelling constant sounds. Not over-the-ear but they come with three sizes of earpiece so you could use the small ones to fit your canals. Worth a look IMO.

    7. Cloudy with sunny breaks*

      I know there are blue tooth enabled ones that people can wear on construction sites so you can listen to music from your phone and take phone calls

      1. Seeking Second Childhood*

        I actually thought that’s what i was getting with my yard work headphones …but theyre just heap hone not headset. No mouthpiece.
        Lots of places here to start–thanks, peopleď

    8. Dr. Anonymous*

      I wear the MAC silicon wax ear plugs that go OVER, not IN, the ear canal. I use the kids’ size because my ears are so tiny.

  36. Bunny Girl*

    Just a quick vent. On of the support people in our small staff is out for a few weeks for some health issues. I hope she gets better soon for her sake, but also selfishly, for ours. The people she typically works with our coming to us now, and they are impossible to work with. This last week has been really, really unenjoyable.

    1. Ama*

      I’m sorry you are having to deal with that! When she comes back, I bet she’d appreciate some commiseration on her workload — I’ve been the person dealing with high maintenance vendors/coworkers and it always made me feel a little better when my other coworkers recognized the extra effort I was going through to handle the difficult cases.

      1. Bunny Girl*

        I’m not sure if she notices how unreasonable these people are? The people she works for and her are all really cliquey so she might find them charming. I don’t find grown adults throwing tantrums charming or acceptable so I think that’s where the head butts are coming in. Thank you though.

        1. The Man, Becky Lynch*

          She’s probably just used to it and developed some Stockholm Syndrome!

          As someone who’s dealt with finicky picky people before and sadly still agrees to cater to most of them, I get it. Theyr’e a pain in the rear if you’re not conditioned to just internally roll your eyes at their tantrums.

  37. I Work on a Hellmouth*

    My friends, we have finally reached another week’s end on the Hellmouth. Today is a big day, because The Good Leasing Consultant has been given a terrific job offer and is giving his two week notice. I am both thrilled for him and a little sick for me, since in two weeks I am going to be alone with my boss. During the busy season. While doing the work of three full time positions with no flexibility on deadlines. But at least one of us is getting out of here! Additionally, after giving notice, The Good Leasing Consultant is going to contact HR about the microphones/cameras (and the fact that my boss told him about them and ordered him not to tell the rest of us because she was listening to the recordings of us), that he thinks he saw her using the company card to buy herself stuff, the time she was in my office and then all of a sudden a bunch of checks from the bank bag were hidden under a filing drawer where they couldn’t have fallen, how she targets employees until they quit or she finds a reason to file them, and so on. I’m getting my documentation of everything together (starting with the time she forced me go to court with her—on the clock—to testify against a former employee of hers who got her fired from her last company) and praying that going to HR will actually help/won’t be a horrible mistake, because y’all, I am cracking. I can’t handle much more of the Game of Thrones shenanigans around here.

    I basically had a breakdown on Wednesday. We had our weekly staff meeting, and it went from the start of the day all the way up to my scheduled lunch break. It consisted of her reading out print outs from the internet about “business etiquette” and implying that we are lazy (no), smelly (no), and not professionally dressed (we all dress appropriately, and she was wearing sweatpants on this particular day), a further tightening on cell phone restrictions (they are to be locked in desks at all times if we don’t leave them in our cars, and we all need to purchase wristwatches because we can’t check the time on our phones anymore, etc, etc), berating us in very vague terms so we weren’t sure what the problems were or who the berating was actually directed at, and then culminated in an hour and a half of us being forced to walk behind her around various buildings and through vacant apartments while she told the maintenance supervisor to relay various instructions to assorted vendors—it literally had nothing to do with the rest of us or our jobs, and it was directly after her telling us that we weren’t being productive enough and increasing our workloads for the day dramatically. She also lectured us about not noticing issues around the property that we have actually been specifically reporting to her for months. When we got back (remember, just in time for me to clock out for the lunch time that my boss schedules for me), I was reprimanded by my boss for not having photos readily on hand from a file she put in deep storage. I don’t know why this was the straw that broke the camel’s back, but I went home for lunch in tears, which only got worse as the end of my break approached. And I couldn’t force myself to go back. I claimed a family emergency and took some medication for anxiety. I found out from The Good Leasing Consultant that Boss was FURIOUS about my calling out, and that she was already sending nasty emails (he was copied on them) that seemed to be laying groundwork for future disciplining. Since I knew at that point that The Good Leasing Consultant was going to be giving notice today (and that Boss would back off of me as soon as that happened, because she would not risk having zero office employees) I called in for Thursday and spent the whole day applying to new jobs. I forced myself to come in today, but my hands are still shaking off and on and I’m trying really hard to not be a mess. I know I can’t just keep calling out, though.

    So. Uh. Yeah. Not the most positive update, and no funny news of the Squirrel Army or resident wackiness. Sorry guys, I’m just in a very bad headspace. But I’m working to get out of it. And hey, every week HAS to bring me closer to the day where I get to start a new and hopefully sane job, right?

    1. Need to think of a name*

      I really feel for you and read each week to see if you have an out yet. I hope you have someone you can talk to in person.

      2. I Work on a Hellmouth*

        I have my partner, my dog, and sometimes my mom for the in the trenches/really terrible stuff, and I have some good friends who are always willing to bend an ear–I don’t want to turn them into work woe dumping grounds, though, so I try to limit it to an extent.

        If it weren’t for my partner, I think I’d have gone looney by now. Or loonier.

        1. BadWolf*

          Would it be more or less stressful to make an actual Bingo card for yourself to fill out during the week?

          Bees
          Squirrels
          Spiders
          Snakes
          Stolen good pens
          Weird team building lecture
          New camera found
          ….

          1. I Work on a Hellmouth*

            Okay, I have actually done this before! I made them the day after the spider bit my face when I was having lunch at one of the picnic tables outside. The leasing staff was very amused, but the boss was not a fan.

    2. Bee's Knees*

      I’m going to start with the watches/phones, because that’s the first thing that flummoxes me. I’m assuming that when you are out giving tours, she needs a way to get in touch with you? And when you are in the office, why would you need a watch to tell time, if you have a computer. I mean, I don’t think she’s burdened with an overabundance of schooling, but still.

      I’m sorry that this is happening to you. And that you’ll be by yourself now that GLC has given his notice.

      1. I Work on a Hellmouth*

        Yeah, my boyfriend thinks the watch thing is just her doing what he calls her “toxic control flex.” She really needs to have control over the weirdest things where we are concerned.

        One funny thing about when she addressed that, though! She asked us who had watches and I mused that I had no idea where to even go to get the battery changed on my old, graduation present wristwatch and she instructed me to go to Circuit City or Radio Shack. Ummmmmmmm…

        1. Bee's*

          So she’s 2000% an other worldly being that got rejected from being on Buffy, and is mad about it, and is taking it out on the world.

          Also, a jewelry store could probably change the battery for you.

        2. Gumby*

          There’s a guy set up in the front of the supermarket here who changes watch batteries. That is who I used most recently.

          WalMart and Target were backing away from watch batteries several years ago – something about not wanting to take on liability in case they harmed my watch. (I have a Timex. It must be worth at *least* $20 if it were new but since it was a high school graduation present in the mid-90s…)

          And I think that the place where I get my car remote control batteries changed (which is also a locksmith) might also be able to handle watch batteries too.

          So that is a start on where to look.

    4. revueller*

      hugs, friend. hopefully whatever the GLC reports to HR will have a good impact on your work life. you’re in a warzone fighting for survival at this point, and i’m still rooting for you to GTFO of there as soon as possible.

      hope you have at least a quiet weekend ahead. <3

      1. I Work on a Hellmouth*

        Gracias! I’m committed to calming down enough to enjoy the weekend… once TGLC goes, I’ll be working all Saturdays for the forseeable future, so I’m determined not to let anxiety wreck my last two proper weekends.

    5. Karen from Finance*

      Hey, TGL was able to escape, and so can you! Don’t lose hope girl! We’re rooting for you.

      Let’s pray that something comes out of going to HR and you’re finally able to rid yourself of your boss.

      1. I Work on a Hellmouth*

        Thanks! I’m trying to remind myself that I’ve largely applied to jobs in places that have glacial hiring processes, but that I applied to them specifically because they’ll be good fits and offer low drama and stability.

    6. Princess of DeNial*

      OK I know Passover is coming up but this part “culminated in an hour and a half of us being forced to walk behind her around various buildings and through vacant apartments while she told the maintenance supervisor to relay various instructions to assorted vendors—it literally had nothing to do with the rest of us or our jobs, and it was directly after her telling us that we weren’t being productive enough and increasing our workloads for the day dramatically.” sounds EXACTLY like Exodus Chapter 5 where Pharoah takes away the straw and tells the slaves to “make bricks without straw” which apparently was like the rebar of the day, who knew?

      Hopefully you will lead yourself to freedom, soon. Good luck.

      1. I Work on a Hellmouth*

        Thanks. Also, I now have Let My People Go running in my head on a continuous loop, which is strangely cheering right now. Might see if I can get a sing-a-long going with the Good Leasing Consultant if Boss steps out again.

        1. Bee's Knees*

          You have to film it if you do. Extra points if you release frogs/squirrels/bees at the climax.

          1. Gumby*

            Frogs are okay. Gnats, flies, and locusts would suffice. I’m afraid the squirrels and bees will need to wait for another sing-a-long.

        2. Jules the 3rd*

          I feel ya! I had Queen, “I’ve Got To Break Free” stuck in my head last weekend while running errands. I kept my radio turned off because I didn’t *want* it to get erased.

          My deepest sympathy, and hopes for your escape. And for her karma to finally kick in.

    7. Weegie*

      Sending you sympathies and multiple good wishes for your escape. Your boss is clearly a loon who has no idea what she’s doing.

      If you’re able to talk yourself into pitying her, that might help a bit, but I know how hard it is to do that kind of thing when a boss is so awful and you’ve reached the end of your rope.

      Hopefully HR will do something about the illegal covert surveillance, if nothing else. One day, if not now, all of this will come back to bite her.

      Hang on in there!

      1. I Work on a Hellmouth*

        I actually do pity her/have empathy for her sometimes… I think she’s unwell. And sometimes we’ll get little pockets where she’s nice or at least seems vaguely normal. But then she usually will immediately do something so vile that I remember that, unwell or not, she’s just a really terrible person.

        I sincerely think that she works in this industry and in these incredibly small offices because she can pretty much do whatever she wants to the people underneath her.

    8. Tired*

      I can’t imagine how you’re feeling, but I wonder if a grounding technique might help at least some of the anxiety while you’re at work. My favorite is to list 5 things you can see, 4 things you can feel, 3 things you can hear, 2 things you can smell, and 1 thing you can taste. It can help your brain to focus on the here and now, rather than the panic it’s been fixating on. Breathing exercises like breathing in for four counts, holding for four counts, and breathing out for four counts can also help. We tend to speed up our breathing when anxious, and slowing it down can have a calming effect.

      You’ll make it out of there, and you have a whole team rooting for you. Best wishes for today. You’ll make it through.

      1. I Work on a Hellmouth*

        Thank you for this–I’ve been doing breathing exercises for awhile, but I actually wrote out the list you suggested on a notecard and I’ve taped it to my monitor. Hopefully it will help!

        1. Jules the 3rd*

          little fidgets help with the things you can feel – I like the soft squeeze balls

      1. I Work on a Hellmouth*

        I’m planning on quality hug the dog time, and I’m forcing myself to exercise and get some fresh air and sun. And possibly buying an ill advised number of bath bombs.

    12. Anonforthis*

      Oh my goodness, my friend. As someone who also suffers from anxiety (and used to have work-related panic attacks on a regular basis), I’m sending you all the good vibes and offering it up to the universe to get you into another job ASAP. I’m not a religious person, but if I were, I’d be willing to be that your horrible boss’s future abode will be somewhere very hot and fiery.

    13. Seeking Second Childhood*

      First off, good job on you for doing some job searching on your vacation day!
      Second, I have the sneaking feeling that your (bad) manager is herself in trouble and trying to deflect it.
      Which leads me to a possibly unpleasant thought.. have you any idea what you’ll want to do if *she* gets fired by the owners and they try to hire you for that thankless job? It’s the kind of situation where I could see myself agreeing to something simply because I was caught flat-footed — and then kicking myself later. So I’m suggesting it so you think about it.
      We’re all rooting for you!

      1. Merci Dee*

        I was thinking along the same lines — what if TGLC leaves so that it’s just Hellmouth and boss . . . and then boss gets fired because of all the ridiculous antics that TGLC reports to HR? I could easily see Hellmouth getting promoted to site manager, at least on a temporary basis until they could bring in someone who was =not= a workplace Dementor. But, hey! If Hellmouth gets bumped up the ladder to management, at least she’ll know where to come for excellent managerial advice! :)

        1. Armchair Analyst*

          Good luck, Hellmouth. You can leave any time you want to or need to. We support you.

      2. Pilcrow*

        I’m thinking along these lines as well. You know the saying, shit rolls downhill? I think her meeting topics are a reflection of something the corporate office is handing down, so she’s passing the crap on to you.

      3. I Work on a Hellmouth*

        I actually have considered this (although I don’t know how likely her removal actually is) and my thoughts all go back to DO NOT WANT. I’ll pass if that situation ever comes to pass. I just want to find something in a different industry and leave foreeeeeeeeeever (not that I will tell them that, I will just say that I’m not ready for the responsibility).

    14. Cowgirlinhiding*

      Can you get unemployment if you quit? It might be worth it so you can job hunt full time. Sorry that it is that bad. You shouldn’t have to be treated that way, ever!

      1. Hallowflame*

        I don’t think this is an option for Hellmouth. In her state, the eligibility requirements when it comes to quitting are pretty limiting: ” If you quit your job, you won’t be eligible for unemployment benefits unless you had good cause because of a substantial change to your employment by your employer. In general, good cause means that your reason for leaving the position was job-related and was so compelling that you had no other choice than to leave. For example, if you left your job because of dangerous working conditions or sexual harassment that your employer refused to stop, you may be able to collect benefits.”
        She might be able to make a case under unsafe working conditions because of the multiple threats and attacks by tenants, but I wouldn’t bet my paycheck on it.

        1. I Work on a Hellmouth*

          Yep, it would be almost impossible to get unemployment. Unless another person tries to assault me, maybe? Boss has been knowingly riling up the residents with some really petty leasing violations and $20 fines, and also has been towing a large number of cars on property, though, so maybe someone else will force their way into my office… not that I’m hoping for any such thing, I just think that would be the only way I *might* be able to get unemployment if I quit. They make it VERY difficult here.

    15. Pebbles*

      It’s great that TGLC is getting out, and I know you can too!

      Quite frankly, your boss should have zero employees.

      1. I Work on a Hellmouth*

        I agree. A part of me prays I am able to give notice before anyone new is hired. Just to see the expression on her face. Also because I want to be gooooooone.

    16. Nerdy Library Clerk*

      Zero office employees is the least of what she deserves.

      I hope you find a new (sane!) job before GLC is replaced, leaving Boss Horrible fending off the Squirrel Army all by herself!

      1. I Work on a Hellmouth*

        The Squirrel Army really seems to dislike her for some reason–or at least her giant Humvee. They throw a lot of stuff at it.

    17. NewNameJustForThisBecause*

      I don’t know about the laws in your state, but I was able to take sick leave then disability when I broke down emotionally. I’m in a very liberal state, but I had a doctor’s appointment, started talking to her, and just… lost it. Sobbing. I was not intending to take disability, but she kindly insisted that I was not well served by trying to return to work until I was better.
      She wrote me the doctor’s letter, and I got disability. Never, ever, ever in a million years did I think that I wouldn’t be able to hold it together – but honestly, it was such a relief to have that time off.
      So… look into disability…. you don’t have to mention that you are job hunting too (that was part of my mental recovery, not having the toxic job.).
      Again, so unlike me (and you)… but you have that same “stiff up lip, soldier on” push forward approach I see in myself… and sometimes… sometimes you do need to recognize that the anxiety bubbling to the surface actually has a whole cauldron boiling underneath.

      1. pcake*

        I’m in California, and when I broke down, I, too, got disability. I had been working under awful conditions, the pressure was ramping up as were the hours, and I fell apart. My doctor said I suffered from burn-out syndrome and gave me first a month and then two more months off.

        Document what you can, keep copies of unreasonable emails from your boss, and of all the things you tell us about here – the dangerous stuff and the rest.

        Best of luck to you, and I hope you get to do something relaxing and pleasant this weekend to refresh and recharge.

  38. Boney*

    I’ve been underweight my whole life and am ashamed enough that I don’t own any bathing suits, shorts, or short sleeve shirts despite living in an area where summer temperatures reach up to 100 degrees. I hate when people point out how skinny I am, comment on my eating habits, or make “jokes” about it.

    What can I say when coworkers do this? Saying that I hate being skinny and don’t want comments on it gets me lectures on how “lucky” I am and how grateful I should be, which I don’t argue with because I’m so embarrassed to be talking about my body at work and just shut down. It’d be nice to turn around the comments and make them think about how they’d feel (i.e. “How would you feel if I said you needed to eat less because you’re too fat?” or “How would you feel if I said ‘Oh my god! Look at how fat you are!'”) but I worry that that would be “inappropriate” for work since it could imply that I’m calling them fat.

    A complicating factor is that all my life I’ve eaten a ton of junk food on purpose thinking I might gain weight (I didn’t) and I’ve always avoided exercising in fear of losing weight. About a year ago I found out you can be “skinny-fat” (i.e. be skinny but have the health issues of an obese person). So I started a light exercise routine and have been gradually eating more healthy food and less junk food. I already eat lunch alone so that I don’t have to deal with comments on my eating habits, but I’m afraid of how people will react if I decline to eat birthday cake or home baked cookies since everyone thinks I “need to put some meat on my bones.” I’m feeling resentful about having to eat junk food in order to avoid extra comments on my weight.

    1. NotMyRealName*

      I think they are projecting their own insecurities on you here. Just say no thanks and move on .

    2. KatieKate*

      “That’s a weird comment.”
      “Why would you say that?”
      “Huh.” *stare at them until they go away*

      1. Bostonian*

        Yes. And, if you want to be more chilly:
        “My body is not up for discussion at work”
        “That’s a rude thing to say”
        “Don’t talk about my body, it makes me uncomfortable”

        If they say how lucky you are: “I don’t consider it lucky to be sick” (if you don’t mind giving that detail)

        I find it admirable that you’re making food and exercise choices with the goal of being healthy. Try not to let anyone’s rude and insecure comments affect you. (easier said than done)

        2. Michaela Westen*

          I’m also skinny since I had a sudden weight loss from stress. During the next few years I had moments when I was afraid I’d waste away and die.
          Maybe use that? “Yes I’m so lucky, only a few pounds between me and a health crisis”, or something like that.

    3. Countess Boochie Flagrante*

      Honestly, commenting on your body (even if they think they’re being positive) is really rude, and you’re within your rights to be rather icy with them about it. “Please don’t comment on my weight” is a perfectly acceptable thing to say. “How would you feel if I said X” can really backfire on you, because they might be making comments that they themselves think they’d be okay with! I’ve heard a lot of people say something like ‘Oh, I’d want someone to speak up if they thought I should eat better’ (which I’m convinced is utter tripe, but there you go…).

      3. Astor*

        Please don’t use this one or anything else that involves “turning it around” on someone. If I was a bystander to this response, I’d be thinking badly of both of you.

        “It’s not okay to comment on other people’s bodies,” is okay. “I’m surprised that someone as usually kind as you is commenting on other people’s bodies,” is okay. Anything that implies that there’s a right and wrong body for making comments is not.

        But also, OP, I’m sorry, that really sucks to be constantly in that situation, I’m sorry.

    5. Paige*

      Would you be comfortable saying something like “it’s a medical thing?” That would probably shut people up.

      1. CastIrony*

        It’d shut ME up! Then again, I know better than to make such comments. It hurts everyone. I hope everyone stops soon! Just. Stops.

        1. Paige*

          I lost a bit of weight a year ago, and I was astonished at how much people commented on it. And occasionally, when asked how I did it, I would lose patience and tell them the truth: my blood pressure had skyrocketed, I had to go off birth control, I was not happy about having to go off birth control, and I would gain it back in a couple months.

          1. WellRed*

            A couple years ago on a biz trip, my coworker and I bumped into an acquaintance we know well, well enough to know that she has battled health issues. My coworker commented that acquaintance looked well and “have you lost weight”? or some such as I cringed on the inside thinking “noooooooo!” The acquaintance: “Yes, that’s what stomach cancer does to you.”

            1. only acting normal*

              I remember cringing in horror when someone, who I knew had advanced cancer, was celebrating losing weight without realising it was probably a VERY BAD SIGN. :(

            2. Miss Pantalones en Fuego*

              People did this to my uncle when he was dying of pancreatic cancer. Yes, he was a very obese man for most of his life and was in a way pleased to be able to fit into some of his old clothes, but it was a very bitter consolation prize.

    6. canary*

      I’ve had this problem before, and it is really frustrating. Would you feel comfortable saying in a serious tone, “Please don’t comment on my weight or eating habits” or “I don’t think it’s appropriate to discuss anyone’s weight or food choices.” ?

    7. Alex*

      What they are doing is gross and inappropriate! “Please don’t comment on my weight; it makes me uncomfortable.” Is a perfectly polite and appropriate way to respond to these awful comments. It implies “how would I like it if I called you fat?” without actually having to say that.

      A less confrontational thing to say may be “Healthy food and exercise is good for everyone” in response to comments about why you are eating a salad or something like that.

      1. Spool of Lies*

        I think your first suggestion is good but the second one is almost bound to launch a debate about what constitutes “healthiness” so I would steer clear.

    8. Seifer*

      Oh man. The skinny-fat thing was me to a tee. I’m still too small to give blood, so I get some grumbling when the blood drive comes around and I’m the only person that doesn’t sign up to donate. One of the women in accounting pinches my arm whenever I come by because I’m just so skinny! Probably the most ridiculous comment I got when I declined food was when some guy I worked with said, “come on! No one wants to f*ck a bag of bones!” This, thankfully was not at my current company, but it was still like… really? We’re in a workplace.

      I make it dreadfully boring to comment on these things because I just don’t react anymore. When the woman in accounting pinches my arm and exclaims, “ugh! You’re just so skinny!” I say, “okay. Here are the invoices that I approved. I’m still going over the TPS report, but I’ll have it for you by the end of the day.” And then I walk off. When there are donuts and someone says, “oh, Seifer needs a donut, she needs more meat on those bones!” I say, “maybe later, I have to review these reports with the engineers.” And then I walk off. With that guy from one of my old jobs, I just straight up told him that I didn’t ask for his opinion. That was the only time I was cold, because he was inappropriate. When my manager asked me about it later, because of course the guy got his feelings hurt and said I was being mean to him “for no reason,” I asked my manager how else I was supposed to respond when someone insinuates that f*cking me is like f*cking a bag of bones and so I should eat more so that my body is more pleasing for those people lining up to f*ck me. I didn’t get in trouble.

      But anyway. Make it uninteresting. Don’t give reasons. Not even a, “I’m just trying to stay healthy!” because that opens the door to arguments (“just one isn’t going to mess up your diet, come on!”). Just a simple, I’m good, and move on.

      1. Jules the 3rd*

        Pinching you is also totally inappropriate. I would totally be using the ‘extreme version of natural reaction’ (eg, visibly pull back, yell ‘ow’ really loudly, and ask ‘why are you pinching me? Please don’t touch me!’) against her. That’s awful.

        GREAT response on the guy from the old job – he deserved that, and then some.

      2. Quandong*

        I’m so sorry you’ve been subjected to this appalling treatment from colleagues, as well as sexual harassment.

        The woman who pinches your arm is completely out of line. Apart from her comment being incredibly rude, it’s not okay for her to touch or hurt you.

        If you want to tell her to stop, and that you will involve your boss if she doesn’t stop, please do so. You deserve to be safe from harm at work.

    9. Maya Elena*

      One approach may be to think about why you don’t like having your slimness on display, and what can be done to address that?

      For either men or women (I don’t know your gender), a popular suggestion seems to be weight-lifting, or sports in general. I personally don’t like strenuous exercise, but it does seem as though an aggressive exercise routine can help you with 1) putting on muscle weight (and thus total aggregate weight), 2) giving your body tone so you feel more attractive in revealing clothes, and 3) forcing you to eat more and better.

      More female-specific (though not exclusively), but it could also be a matter of how you dress? E.g. baggy cargo pants and T-shirts vs. tight jeans and form-fitting blouse with curve-accentuating patterns make for a VERY different look and feel. It seems like an easy cycle to fall into it (and I fell into it, though not due to skinniness) of: “my body is ugly, so I want to hide it with clothes, nice clothes are for shallow people anyway, who will make fun of my body when I show up in wanna-be nice clothes, why upset myself by even trying”, etc. – but these can be projections not necessarily rooted in reality of how most people see you or will react to you. If you can go and find yourself clothes that make you feel *attractive* – e.g. a form-fitting dress with curve-accentuating stripes – and dress that way more consistently (or just know that you can dress that way when you feel like it) might make those comments about being skinny less triggering. [Note – do not bring your mom on such a shopping trip if she’s likely to say “this totally fits” when it totally doesn’t, or will shame you for being vain or anti-feminist or whatever.]

      1. A Person*

        I disagree with this comment. I don’t think this person should spend time and effort thinking about how these other people see them, especially as they are already doing the healthy step of finding ways to be more healthy for them!

        Finding clothing you like and feel good in is great, but I don’t think this person sounds like they dislike being “on display”, they just dislike people who are super rude!

      2. Jules the 3rd*

        I also disagree with this comment.

        It’s really inappropriate for people to comment on her weight – the existence of such comments imply that Boney’s body is public property, for anyone to critique. It’s not.

        Saying that Boney should get used to it, and dress to feel happier about getting comments, normalizes the idea that Boney’s body is public property. That’s not ok.

      3. Quandong*

        I disagree with your comment Maya Elena. It’s not okay for people to make these comments to Boney.

        Boney does not have to change anything about their appearance. They do not have to try and hide their body to avoid unacceptable comments.

        The people around them need to stop saying anything about Boney’s body, full stop.

    10. Thursday Next*

      I think you should respond as anyone would to unwanted comments about their body:

      “Please stop commenting on my body.”
      If needed, add, “It’s not appropriate in the workplace.”
      “Please stop commenting on what I eat or don’t eat.”
      If needed, add, “Like most people, I don’t like it when people talk about my diet.”

      Next-level responses:
      “I’ve already told you to stop talking about my body/diet. Please stop.”

      Third-level

      “ I don’t understand why you’re so interested/obsessed with my body, but you’re making me uncomfortable and you need to stop. At this point, I need to involve our supervisor/grand-boss.”

      1. Qwerty*

        These are all great responses! Society has a weird obsession with being skinny and some people seem unable to understand that it is not a compliment to comment on someone’s thinness.

        I’m so sorry that you have to deal with this! I was underweight for a good chunk of my life too, so I get what you are going through with everyone monitoring your size and eating habits. Even now, I have to hide my breakfast shake because people see the Slimfast label and assume I’m dieting, when really I’m having it to ensure that I get enough protein/vitamins. (Fun fact, it did cause weight gain when I had a chocolate one every night for dessert because I loved the taste, so the joke is on them)

      2. Jules the 3rd*

        Yes, these. These are great. Short and to the point, professional. Practice them in the mirror or with a friend.

      3. Quandong*

        These are fantastic, and I especially appreciate the Third-level response. Boney, I hope you feel as though you can escalate to get your supervisor or HR involved if your colleagues do not stop commenting after you try the first two levels of response.

    11. KR*

      “Hm, you know it’s considered rude to comment on people’s bodies.” And then just act like they said nothing.

      Can you or have you mastered the technique of raising one eye brow?

      “I’ll pretend you didn’t just say that.”

    12. blink14*

      In the past 10-12 years (so most of my 20s, my early 30s, and all of my work experience outside of part time jobs) I have been at my lowest weight and at my highest weight. My weight gain was triggered by steroids necessary to treat an acute illness, and I have struggled for about 10 years now with increasing weight gain, no matter what I do. I’ve finally been approved for a treatment for an immune condition and I’m hoping with better health, I can lose weight.

      I never thought I was exceptionally thin at my lowest weight – it was still well within a healthy range for my height and age, and actually considered on the higher end weight wise. But dang, looking back at pictures, I was THIN. And people commented on it. And I was young, just out college, eating well most days but also eating fast food and candy and living on energy drinks and alcohol.

      Now at my highest weight, I don’t each much fast food, I don’t drink much anymore, and people comment on my weight (mostly family but I’m sure it’s commented on behind my back by others). My point is, no matter what weight you are at, people are going to make comments, because that is what people do. And it can really wear you down, but my best advice is to focus on what you are doing to be more healthy and to live your life in a positive way.

      I personally have found that being open with my medical conditions has shut down a lot of comments, and I’ve also said hey, it’s none of your business. At the end of the day, everyone has something they can work on to be more healthy – mentally and physically – no one is perfect. Find the answer that works best for you – and enjoy the cake or snacks at work if you want it, and if you don’t, that’s totally fine to. But make that decision based on your own feelings, not how people are going to look at you. Once you start really ignoring the comments, most of it should fade away on it’s own.

      1. Mr. Tyzik*

        I feel you. I lost 80lbs of my 100lb. goal from my highest point, then went on a new medication and gained 60lbs back. I got comments about the loss, the low point, my clothes, my diet, and my eventually gain-back.

        I had always thought of myself as fat in HS, but I was comparing myself to supermodels. When I look at old pictures, I’m amazed at how thin I was.

        1. blink14*

          I know! I actually was thinner in my early to mid 20s than I was in high school – by about 2 sizes, and I was fairly thin in high school. I cannot believe how thin I was about 10 years ago and I didn’t think I was thin! Weird how the mind works.

          Wishing you luck!

    14. Parenthetically*

      “I was always taught that it’s rude to comment on people’s bodies.”

      “I was always taught that it’s rude to comment on people’s eating habits.”

      “I’d rather not hear comments about my body or eating habits at work, thanks.”

      Gods, I’m so sorry you have to deal with this. People are awful.

    15. The Man, Becky Lynch*

      Honestly they’re vile and I’m sorry that this is a thing that happens, I know it’s true, I had an underweight friend for many years who dealt with it.

      They love to be blissfully ignorant or not understand that this could also be attributed to an eating disorder. It’s all about appearances with them and they don’t understand the mental aspects.

      I’m evil though and would resort to comments about having ED, even if I didn’t have it. Just like in high school, when I was razzed about not drinking at a party, some snotty guy asked me if I learned that [saying no, I had to drive home soon] from my mom. My response was ‘I learned it in AA, I actually have a problem with alcohol.” Deadpan. Stared at him in the face and his face fell and he scurried away never to speak to me again.

    16. Hope*

      I’m going to give you the same advice I give myself though I’m at the opposite end of the norm–you do you, and ignore what other people think. Your life is yours, not theirs.

      People are going to make idiotic, mean, hurtful comments no matter what you look like, skinny or fat or anywhere in-between. It is really awful that some people feel the need to body shame others, but it helps to remind yourself that what they’re saying is really much more about them than it is you.

      Sometimes, if you want to shut the comments down, it’s actually more helpful to just agree. “Yep, I am ____. Great observation skills.” “No, I don’t want to eat that.” “Yeah, I’ve heard that joke a thousand times, and it’s getting old.”

    17. It's Pronounced Bruce*

      I used to get this at an old job. I’m sometimes quite underweight because of health issues, and there are some people who can’t help but comment on their own insecurities at others.

      The “let’s not talk about my body/food/whatever” suggested by others does work sometimes. Especially when someone comments on you being very thin, a sad furrow of the eyebrows and a quiet “Yeah, I’ve been sick…” will often shut people up. When someone is pushing food, a firm “I just don’t want it” with a tone that says “why are you being weird about this” does the trick a lot of the time.

      But if someone is a real turd and keeps making snide comments about your choices, sometimes having a sorta smarmy attitude back is the only thing that works, because shame sure as hell won’t. I had a “must be nice” coworker who always had something to say and eventually I just started responding that yeah, it’s great! It’s really nice! I eat whatever I want and don’t go to the gym, it’s fabulous! It’s not actually fabulous, but not shrinking is just about the only thing that ruins the fun of someone who’s trying to make you feel self-conscious or ashamed.

    18. Serin*

      Can I TELL you all how much I despise the phrase “skinny fat”? We do NOT redefine “fat” so that suddenly it means “with health issues.” I’ve got steam coming out my ears right now.

      Not your fault, Boney — I’ve got steam coming out my ears on your behalf too. I agree with all those who suggest saying things like, “Please don’t comment on my body or my food.”

      If nice people offer you sweets, you can just say, “Oh, not today, but thank you.” If people try to bully you into taking sweets, go back to, “I’d prefer not to discuss my eating.”

      1. Parenthetically*

        Yep. Hate that, fuming right along with you. Especially because the actual research shows things like being in the “overweight” BMI category is protective, particularly as one ages, against a raft of illness. And that behavioral changes strongly impact those “obesity-linked” diseases even when they have no impact on weight.

        Health-promoting choices matter (as much as any choices matter with regard to health) regardless of body shape or size, and are also exactly 0% anyone’s business but an individual and their doctor. People who give other people sh*t because of body size are utterly missing the point of everything and deserve to be thumped.

    19. TiffanyAching*

      Captain Awkward has a good catch-all that I think would work here: “Wow, what an odd thing to say to a coworker.” And then either go back to what you were doing or pivot to some work-related topic.

      I totally get the resentful about modifying your food intake thing. I have Weird Food Habits for Medical Reasons, and also went through a period of being underweight where everyone commented on how skinny I was and why didn’t I eat more, etc. It sucks. If you can, I found it actually helped a little to eat what I wanted/needed when I wanted/needed, instead of trying to modify to avoid the comments. After a while people got used to it and stopped commenting on Tiffany’s 3pm Yogurt.

    20. Not A Manager*

      I haven’t read all the comments, so maybe someone said this already.

      I think that in this case, when you talk about your feelings (“I hate being skinny,” or even “I don’t like to talk about my weight”), people feel invited to tell you how you SHOULD feel.

      Instead, try talking about behavior – theirs and yours. “Please don’t comment on my weight.” “I don’t discuss my body at work.” “Let’s not talk about what people are eating.” “No, I don’t care for any, thank you.”

      I think that all of this hiding your body and skulking at lunch time isn’t good for you. Do you have friends or a counselor who can help you find ways to feel safer presenting as you really are, a healthy skinny person?

    21. Ellie*

      I’ve dealt with something on the continuum of body monitoring, and you know what stops people in their tracks? Look them in the eye, completely seriously, and say, “Meth.” Give that a second to sink in and go back to what you’re doing. The person making the comments will usually make the connection between “ask a stupid question, get a stupid response.” (I would NEVER mock someone dealing with substance abuse or make light of the havoc methamphetamines wreak on the human body!!! But I had reached the end of my rope with comments, and it came out unexpectedly, and it prompted the person speaking to me to stop and assess the topic of conversation, it’s appropriateness in the work place, etc.)

    22. gwal*

      “I recognize that you’re trying to give me a compliment but I’m really uncomfortable to hear about other people’s evaluations of my body. Could we please talk about something else?”

  39. Audiophile*

    I had an interesting conversation with my boss this morning as we rejected a potential vendor.

    He said any time he’s rejecting a job candidate, he does it over the phone. This kind of blew my mind since I think I can count on one hand the number of times I’ve been rejected over the phone. He said his reason for doing this is he feels it’s more personal and since they met face to face he believes it’s rude to reject them via email.

    Personally, I’d rather be rejected through email. I generally need time to process my thoughts and feelings, especially if it was a job I really wanted.

    He recounted a story about rejecting a candidate, who after being rejected politely told my boss what he would have brought to the table. The candidate wasn’t trying to change his mind, just sharing his thoughts about the organization. My boss said the candidate actually swayed him in that moment, and while he didn’t change his mind or rescind the other person’s offer (thankfully), he offered to help the candidate in anyway he could. The candidate took him up on the offer and asked if he’d call another company on his behalf and basically act as a reference. My boss agreed and the candidate was hired for the other job. The entire scenario sounded so strange.

    I’m glad it worked out for everyone, but I still fall on the side of send me an email.

    I’m curious – do you prefer to be rejected through email or over the phone?

    If you’re like my boss and you prefer to reject someone over the phone, I’d love to hear why. It really is bewildering to me.

    1. londonedit*

      Urgh no, I’d never want to be rejected over the phone! If you’re waiting for a response about a job, then you’re going to automatically assume it’s good news if they call you (seeing as most people email these days), so then you’re going to have to have the most awkward conversation where you’re trying to be all ‘Oh! No, that’s absolutely fine, thank you so much for letting me know!’ breezy while inside you’re really disappointed. It’s not fair. Also, if you email, then the person has a chance to open and read the email when they’re ready, rather than being blindsided by a call when they’re in the middle of the supermarket or on their way home from work or whatever.

    2. The Man, Becky Lynch*

      I’ve never been rejected by phone call, I’ve only ever had job offers. I’d be blindsided and pretty wrecked if someone called to “kindly” reject me. No, either ghost me or break up with me over email, maaaaaaan. No thank you.

      The only in person rejection I ever got [I’ve told this story a few times] in person was when I had a “stop by in person to apply” advertisement. And so I did…the lady looked at my resume and then asked me if I had ever done social media [for a small town, independently owned business, odd request and nobody really does that…] so I answered honestly about never doing it on a business level, being familiar with social media on a personal level and being able to learn anything that’s necessary for their position though. She just sighed, said “I could figure it out too but I want someone who already know s” and handed me back my resume telling me that it wasn’t going to happen. I just kind of fell silent, it was so bizarre.

      Then she did offer me some “quiet” advice that “so and so is also hiring” and was all “I shouldn’t tell you this but” as her way of “helping me out”, despite the fact she thought in her own mind she shouldn’t assist a woman who was looking for a job. It wasn’t the anyone who’s a competitor even but yeah, she seriously did the “hush-hush” thing while telling me about another job listing. A job listing I had already applied to because it was in the classified ads FFS, lol.

      I would have preferred she just say “I’m just now accepting applications and I’ll call if we’re interested after seeing the candidate pool”.

    3. Cercis*

      I’ve had rejections by phone three times and they absolutely SUCKED. In none of them did they have ideas for how I could improve my candidacy in the future or anything I could use. Instead it was about seeing how graciously I could say “oh, well congrats on finding the right person for the job.” Although one took it further and told me I should apply for the administrative assistant job opening up, after hiring someone with fewer qualifications than I had for the job I wanted. And then argued with me when I said that I’ve been an admin and I really sucked at it (objectively sucked).

      My husband said she was trying to give me advice – that their agency only promotes from within, so if I wanted a job with them, I needed to start as an admin. Which may be what she was trying to do, but in that case, the job will never be in the cards for me, I’m not dropping back to making less than $30k/year and doing work that I totally suck at (as one friend put it “your responsibility exceeds your authority” as an admin and I just don’t have patience for the myriad amounts of petty shit that admins deal with).

      (Side note, that was three years ago and the guy they hired over me STILL hasn’t gotten a required certification, so I’m still pretty damned bitter about it.)

    4. merp*

      I got a voicemail rejection once, because I was in class when he called. The weird thing is that he sounded like he felt terrible about it, just really apologetic. I almost wished I could have answered so I could tell him it was honestly fine. Or that he could have just sent me an email!

    5. Meredith*

      A call does seem more personal. Written communication often lacks emotional warmth or intent. (How many emails have you received in your life that come off as curt or brusque just because that’s the writing style of the person sending it?) A short conversation seems appropriate. “Hi Jane! It was so nice to speak with you and get to know you a bit last week. Listen, we thought you were really qualified and a great candidate, but unfortunately we’ve decided to go another way. Good luck in your search!”

      I’d appreciate either, since it seems the norm for companies to just not let you know if you haven’t been chosen, except via silence, but I might be especially delighted by a phone call.

      For the record, I still remember a fairly warm letter from a graduate program I applied to almost a decade ago. Rather than the standard, “we are unable to offer you placement at this time,” they laid out the fact that they had 105 people apply for the program and could only accept 4. The rest of the wording was akin to, “So we had some really qualified and delightful candidates we just couldn’t bring on. We’re really sorry and really hope you find placement at another program. Keep it up!” I mean… yeah, they probably sent that letter to all 101 people who were rejected, but it honestly made me feel better about it. A sympathetic phone call would probably do the same. And even if I was REALLY disappointed, well, the manager won’t see my face. I can fake nice and be thankful for the opportunity for 2 minutes.

    6. Turtlewings*

      I’ve never been rejected over the phone, but boy would I hate it. If they’re calling, I would assume it meant I got the job, so that would be an awful awkward moment. And then I get to deal with whatever feelings of frustration or disappointment live in front of an audience? No thanks! (I do appreciate actually hearing a No instead of just eternal silence. But not over the phone!)

    7. NativeForeigner*

      I have always been rejected by mail (older days snail mail) whether is it job, school admission or other, like romantic affair. Never ever in phone and at face only in some schools, often publicly.

      And email is definitely the best way to do it. It is awkward to hear it in phone, as there is nothing to say. I want to be alone when hearing bad news.

      1. College Career Counselor*

        I actually don’t (usually) mind a rejection over the phone, because it gives me the opportunity to probe on what they were looking for that I didn’t have. Most of the time, that’s information I can’t do anything about (went with internal candidate/knew the institution better), but sometimes it’s useful (we thought you could have handled X question better).

    8. CM*

      I’ve had it both ways and I prefer email. I once had a hiring manager play phone tag with me for three days just so she could tell me I was rejected. I was working a job where I couldn’t have my phone on me, so it was really hard for us to line up a time when we were both available to talk. Instead of telling me over voicemail that I was rejected, she just kept asking me to call her back and talk to her — which I assumed meant good news, because why would we need to actually talk to each other if she was just calling as a courtesy to let me know it was over? When I finally managed to catch her and found out it was just so she could say goodbye, I was pretty annoyed.

      That’s my worst phone call story. I’ve done it enough that I just kind of say “Okay, it was nice to meet you, thanks for letting me know, etc, etc” automatically, but I like that email gives me the option to choose when I actually read it and brace myself in cases where it’s going to feel disappointing.

    10. ArtsNerd*

      The only time I was ever rejected by phone (voicemail really) it was because the hiring manager was legitimately frustrated at the way things progressed (I think they decided to change what the job was after the interviews or something) and wanted to explicitly invite me to stay in touch. Which I did!

      That said, a regular job rejection should be by email, always. Personalized, sure. But not by phone.

    11. MayLou*

      All but one of my rejections after interview have been by phone, and I appreciate it (the other one was by post, it took days to get to me!). I have received helpful feedback every time, although admittedly one time I ended up crying with frustration when the feedback was that I should have more confidence because I was a very strong candidate. That was an admin role at a counselling and therapy office though so the crying was less unusual for them!

    12. cmcinnyc*

      I got rejected for a fellowship by phone. I was one of three finalists, so I guess they figured they could suck it up and make two calls. (the 3rd call had to be more fun!) I will say, this person I dealt with (interviews, etc.) is now part of my network and I reached out to him recently with a query and he was more than helpful. So, no, I didn’t get the fellowship but I got a professional relationship. I wouldn’t call someone to reject them unless they were someone firmly in my professional network who I’d be interacting with again and again, or I wanted that person to become a part of my network.

    13. Elizabeth West*

      Nooooo. Please use email. It’s like doctor stuff, only the opposite. When the doctor calls you HERSELF with test results, you think it’s bad news. This happened to me earlier today.

      Please, just use a go-between. Personal contact from an employer makes me think the news is good.

      1. T. Boone Pickens*

        As someone who unfortunately has to reject lots of people for jobs I’ve found the following formula works for me:

        Initial application/1st interview/phone screen=email rejection

        Anything beyond that will warrant a phone call from me. The reason I do the phone call is I’m relentless with my clients about the feedback piece and if a candidate gets rejected I want to be able to share something with them to hopefully help them down the road.

        Now, I realize my approach is different but I’m also a 3rd party recruiter that owns my company versus a corporate recruiter that doesn’t have as much stake in the game. I also spend a fair bit of time with my candidates doing prep before the interviews and debriefs after the interviews so I’m apt to build more of a relationship than the traditional job seeker/company scenario. Additionally, I work within only a few verticals so just because a candidate isn’t a fit for one of my openings doesn’t mean they wouldn’t be a fit for others so it’s important for me to keep in touch with folks.

        Lastly, interviewing for jobs sucks. It’s stressful, time-consuming and generally zero fun. If nothing else, I try to add a human element to it.

        1. Elizabeth West*

          It does suck–and I still don’t want you to call me if I’m being rejected. Please just put the feedback into the email. If you don’t want to hire me, I don’t want to talk to you because I’m likely going to be disappointed and won’t really hear what you have to say. If you email me, I can digest that feedback (and refer back to it), and the rejection won’t sting quite so much.

        2. anonagain*

          I agree with Elizabeth West. Put the feedback in an email. You can always follow up with the person later if there’s another position that’s a good fit.

          1. T. Boone Pickens*

            I appreciate the insight from you two. It’s something I’ll definitely consider going forward.

        3. Easily Amused*

          I think a phone call from a third party recruiter is normal and acceptable. It’s different than hearing a response from a direct hire situation. With direct hire, it’s yes or no and goodbye. With third party, it’s yes – do you want to move forward with this offer? (in which you build a negotiation plan) or no but… (in which you build a plan to see what else is out there that might be a fit). At least that’s been my experience.

    14. pcake*

      I’d rather be rejected by email. I have no desire to have to interact and be polite right after I’ve been given bad news.

    15. Luna*

      Last time I was rejected over the phone, I was in public, at a very populated place, and I started crying. Thank goodness it was raining and I had an umbrella, that allowed me at least a bit of an excuse to hide my face!

      I don’t care if I get rejected over phone or e-mail, but I might say I prefer e-mail a little more. It may be a little less personal, but that is also a good thing. The only way I would prefer being rejected over the phone is if I were to be given a decent conversation, including some reasons for why I was not chosen and/or how I had impressed them previously, even if it wasn’t enough to get the job.

      But if it’s just a standard, “We have chosen to not consider you for this position any longer”, I’d prefer it in e-mail. Otherwise it’s just a waste of everyone’s time, and e-mail is faster.

  40. Anon16*

    My boss recently asked me to speak with two of our high school interns about office etiquette. I have a couple of things I wanted to talk about, but I’m having trouble jogging my memory. Does anyone have any ideas? This would be soft skills or unspoken etiquette that you may have to learn over time. I’m especially interested in things taken from your professional life, either things you’ve noticed in other more green employees, or things you’ve had to learn yourself.

        1. WomanOfMystery*

          I’m not the professor, but creating a polite, short(!) email is a valuable skill. You can put in up to one personal comment (ie. Have a good weekend! or Sorry for the delay–I had the flu.) , unless you’re close with the person you’re emailing. Also, don’t indent paragraphs in an email, just as a general norm.

        2. Minerva McGonagall*

          Having a greeting that doesn’t start with hey can u help. Writing out in sentences and using punctuation, not using u and y for the full word, and capitalizing appropriately. Don’t write a novel, and don’t include a thousand questions that can get lost in the email. Start it like a conversation, that it’s back and forth.

          Also having a professional style email account, not hotsurfer69, is something I stress to all our graduating students who will lose their uni email account in 6 months.

        3. CTT*

          If I may add something: never send a reply-all! Or to think about it every time you do. When I was a summer associate, the other interns kept this one reply-all going for HOURS between us and one attorney who just wanted to know when we wanted to leave for an event, and instead they were spamming her with inside jokes.

          1. Anon16*

            You know what’s funny? I had the opposite problem. The two high school students didn’t reply all and the people on the email chain missed important information. I actually think a go-to is to reply all if other people are cc’d. The point is they’re cc’d because they want to hear the info.

            I agree, don’t reply all if it’s a company-wide email or if you’re going off topic…

            1. Yorick*

              Yes, explain to them how to decide whether to reply all or just reply to sender and that they need to not default to one or the other.

        4. Deb Morgan*

          Please teach them that if they get an email that they don’t have an answer for right away, they should respond to the message and say some variation of, “I saw your email, and I need to look into this, but I will get back to you once I have an answer.” I wish someone had told me this before I spent most of my first job not responding to emails for days and irritating the heck out of my coworkers :/

    2. Amber Rose*

      Professionally answering a phone. I can’t believe how many people I’ve worked with who answer the phone, “yeah?”

      Proper dress. Like, no exposed shoulders or shorts, in most places.

      Not wearing your heart on your sleeve. You can’t glare at people, mope around or sulk at work. You either talk out your concerns or you let them go.

    3. TotesMaGoats*

      Dress code
      How to answer the phone or greet office visitors
      Food in the office (i.e. microwaving fish but also if you are working at the front desk where people come by don’t lay out a buffet of your lunch)
      Clean up your messes
      Cell phone/social media use (when it’s appropriate and not)

    4. Middle Manager*

      One of the things I’ve had to talk to my entry level staff through in office etiquette is tailoring the information they share with staff at various levels. For example, I need pretty full details as their immediate supervisor whereas a senior executive has very little time and needs very high level short briefs. And thinking through what details are appropriate to share with internal staff vs. the public.

      1. Anon16*

        Yes! – I was going to say, *try* to keep communication concise! This is hard for recent undergrads :)

        1. irene adler*

          Yes!
          Voicemail:
          Don’t leave those multi-minute rambling voice mail messages with the return phone number at the end.
          Instead, give your name, then return phone number, topic and then a brief reason for the call. If needed, then give the additional, salient, details.
          When I play the message, I can get the return phone number at the beginning of the message and not have to listen to the whole thing a second time just for the phone number.

          Email:
          Please, state a reason for the email right up front. Don’t make me have to dig for what is needed.

          On a different tact:
          Manners- Please use them. Thank you!

          1. JanetM*

            I generally leave my name and number at the beginning and end of a voicemail message, just in case.

          3. Elaine*

            Yes to the phone number. And please say it clearly and not too fast! Someone may be writing it down rather than typing it, and they don’t want to have to listen several times to get the whole thing.

            1. Cloudy with sunny breaks*

              Yeah, I do name, concise reason for calling then phone number, repeat my name and my phone number a second time and end the message. Makes it a little longer but hopefully people only need to listen once

    5. canary*

      Appropriate topics of conversation in the workplace! This will vary depending on what your office culture is like, but in general: no sex, politics, religion, flirting, or rehashing of drama. In general, what’s going on in your personal life should not be brought into the office through attitude or discussion. (Obviously you can be excited for a vacation or sad about a breakup, but no blow-by-blows of spring break or sobbing over your girlfriend.

      1. WomanOfMystery*

        Similarly, I would say to give a quick, warm “good morning” to everyone you encounter at your worksite. As an introvert who is nearly always thinking about ridiculous things, with friends I joke that I have an internal human Speak’n’Spell that generates “Good morning,” “Finally Friday,” or a comment on the weather. It’s done good things for my reputation.

        1. Seeking Second Childhood*

          But don’t go desk-to-desk seeking people out in particular. Just those who you happen to meet.

    6. Tired*

      Not etiquette, per say, but the fact that your work is not your worth. Being open to criticism is important in the workplace and it DOESN’T mean you’re a bad person if someone is critical of the work you’ve done.

      1. WellRed*

        I’d like to add on to this, because I think it’s so common in younger adults: It’s business, it’s not personal. Not only accept feedback like this, but if someone, oh, isn’t chatty with you or seems a bit short today, it’s not about you. It’s them.

    7. Seeking Second Childhood*

      Volume control!
      Don’t use your outside voice inside — it’s inside voice even when it’s a business conversation, and especially if you’re just chatting on break in an open office. Speak in low tones if you have an embarassing message like toiletpaper stuck to the bottom of someone’s shoe… not whispering. That carries farther than you’d expect and can be a pet peeve for someone. Speak clearly & project if you’re asked a question, because overly quiet voices can be misunderstood and sound like you don’t have faith in your answer.
      If they take nothing else away, thought, it’s that loud outdoor voices are for emergencies only: “The bathroom is flooding, who do I call?” or “There’s smoke coming out of the copier.”
      Thinking of copiers … they should also know how to figure out who is the right person for a task. For example, don’t assume the person who sits next to the copier is responsible for maintaining it or unjamming it. They may be willing — but a more polite thing to do is first look for a label with help-desk contact info, and second *ask* the people near the desk if they can tell you who is to be contacted about a problem. (For brownie points, follow up by posting a small tidy message with that info at the copier.)

    8. Parenthetically*

      Chain of command stuff — if I have an issue with X, who do I take it to? What sorts of things should I speak to a coworker directly about, and when should I go to their (or my) supervisor? I find students get wildly mixed messages about tattling/reporting in school, so helping them sort through when to talk to a supervisor about problems in the office vs. when to handle it themselves would be helpful, and head off gossip.

    9. PhillyPhilly*

      Who to take concerns to, and what level of concerns go where. Like personal issues vs professional issues and what’s worth living with versus taking it up the chain. Coworker said something rude do you go to boss or not? That sort of thing. I see a lot of new employees complaining to inappropriate places.

  41. L. S. Cooper*

    How do I make my resume achievement-based instead of task-based when I haven’t really…. achieved anything? I think there’s value in steadily working and being consistent at what you’re assigned, but that doesn’t seem to be the right way to do a resume. I know I need to re-work it, but…. how? When there’s no interesting quantifiable or impressive outcomes for my work, how do I spin it into achievements?
    (I’m just starting in my career– graduated college in August, about to finish a web development bootcamp and looking to transition into that field.)

    1. foolofgrace*

      Alison recommends comparing yourself to someone else doing the same job — how do you perform your duties differently from someone “ordinary”? And/or, how would you describe how well you do your job to a friend? I know I’m not describing this very well but I know it’s been covered, maybe you could check the archives, or someone else can chime in better than I’m doing.

    2. NativeForeigner*

      Same problem here. I have “achievements” but they are very abstract and impossible to explain outsiders. As I am changing the career I have to explain everything to outsiders.

      All advice pages and blogs recommend to say that you increased the sales by 20 % or so. How many people ever work in positions where they can personally influence the sales by any quantifiable measure?

      I would definitely value those that steadily work and are consistent in what they’re assigned, if the job requirements fit that. It depends on the job, though, and current recruitment trend seems to seek for superheros only.

      1. MissDisplaced*

        My achievements aren’t sales related typically. I also recently helped a friend with something like this, because she wasn’t quantifying anything she did, and her work dealt with very large budgets and a lot of vendors. Some examples from various areas might be.

        >Organized xx international trade shows, with an annual event budget of $xxx,xxx.
        >Created an average of x new email marketing pieces month, with an average clickthrough rate of 25%
        >Completed an average of xx department purchase orders for monthly, with amounts averaging $xxx,xxx.
        >Processed approximately x,xxxx accounts weekly, increasing response time by xx%
        >Initiated the launch of a comprehensive office safety program, which decreased incidents by x%
        >Spearheaded the selection and migration to Software X, including organizing training sessions for xxx employees.
        >Originated the Llama Wrangling Program, which serves xx clients per year.
        >Prepared written contracts for approximately x new accounts per month for senior sales management and managed the initial customer database setup for new accounts once approved.

        So, you can do this! Though sometimes you have to search for the numbers that go with it, and that can be tricky. It’s best to try and do this BEFORE you’re job hunting or get laid off. I now make it a point to collect this data in my work notes ongoing, because jobs nowadays are so insecure.

    3. CM*

      Something that helped me: think of your CV as a document that builds the case for why you will be good at the job you’re applying for and then make your “achievements” pieces of evidence in that case. So, if you are applying for web development jobs, maybe talk about web projects you developed (as part of your training, even, if you haven’t done it professionally yet) and what the important features were (like, you organized the flow of information based on UX principles, or you really took advantage the features of of HTML5 or whatever). What you’re showing is “I did a thing and I did certain aspects of that thing really well — aspects of the thing that probably matter to you.”

      If you’re listing achievements from jobs outside the field you’re moving into, think about how the things you did demonstrate transferable skills and highlight those.

      It’s just, instead of framing it like, “I was responsible for doing X and I guess I showed up every day and did that” frame it more like, “I did project Y and I was really excellent at these aspects of it (and, for bonus points, here is my evidence to prove I was excellent — i.e., I got an award, or my coworkers complimented me about it, or I got promoted, or it was the first time we successfully launched this type of product, or whatever).”

    4. tech person*

      I would also recommend explaining why it matters. For example, if you are doing data entry, saying that you entered x amount of data in a timely fashion meant that the sales team could run more up to date projection reports. Numbers are good but adding what that meant for the larger team matters so much more. I review a lot of technical resumes and just saying you built X when I don’t even know why your team needs or even wanted X doesn’t help differentiate you from all of the other people who can also do X.

  42. softcastle mccormick*

    /vent/ We’re introducing a new teapot order tracking software system into work this week, and my nosy problem-coworker has been having actual temper tantrums because she isn’t “being consulted” about the changes. We’re a team of four, and the new software is mostly focused on my processes, so I’m having a lot of one-on-one meetings and discussions with our managers that she isn’t invited to, and it’s causing her to act out in surprisingly hostile ways. She corners me after each meeting, demanding to know why she wasn’t invited and who called it. She tried to make me show her my Outlook calendar, to see who all was included. She storms around aggressively, slamming her possessions around her desk, and frequently leans into my cubicle to complain how “dumb” our supervisors are, and how she knows more about the new processes than they do. She’s broken down in actual tears because I’m “getting more attention than her, even though she’s more experienced in the department.” She got so frustrated that she wasn’t invited to these one-on-ones, she rushed into our grandboss’s office and “told on” our supervisors for not including her!

    The thing is, though, there’s good reason she isn’t included. She constantly derails meetings with disruptive questions and non-sequitor jokes, never waiting until the Q&A. A meeting she’s a part of will often go well over the allotted time due to her questions. Now she’s taken to her (very public, very name-connected) Twitter, complaining about us all. I’m just at my wits end with this coworker. I’m so sick of her nosiness, her over-sharing, her insistence on creating drama. Our managers are so non-confrontational (and desperate to keep us), so all of her behavior goes unchallenged. Sigh, just needed to vent.

    1. Kathenus*

      I know you said you just need to vent, but in case you did want any ideas – and you may already be doing this – the best thing to do here is just not react. Don’t feed into her drama, don’t try to explain the reasons, don’t listen to her vent and complain. Find a stock answer – ‘you should ask manager about that then’ or whatever and just use it every time. It may not change her behavior overall, but it’s likely to reduce her displaying it to you. And it sounds like she might trip herself up eventually on her own, if she does things like run to the grandboss. Don’t reinforce the behavior, and it’s likely to decrease around you at least.

    2. LadyByTheLake*

      OMG — I swear I work with this person. She gets SO bent out of shape if she isn’t invited to every single thing — the thing is that she is one junior person whose role is fairly limited and there are many of us who are more senior who have full time obligations. But if she isn’t invited to EVERYTHING she pitches a hissy fit and then we get in trouble. Not only that, but if she does attend, all she does is complain about being too busy (stop going to meetings that don’t involve you) and she constantly derails the conversation because she’s completely multitasking and isn’t tracking what we’re talking about.

    3. Jen F*

      I work with someone similar to this. It’s soooo hard. And even though she’s crossed lines over and over (with every employee), no one will fire her. At one point she insisted that I give her a written summary every time I talk to someone so that we have the same info. Or don’t talk to them alone. Unfortunately the only thing I found is to do what I need to do, regardless of her histrionics/pouting/passive-aggressive behavior. It’s damned if you do, damned if you don’t. It’s been 11 years. I have tried everything I could think of. I just don’t factor her ridiculousness into my decision-making. So hard though.

  43. I Think My Boss is in Trouble*

    My boss is VERY difficult. At first I thought I was just being sensitive, but a month or so ago a manager (a peer of mine) took me aside and asked how working for Beth was. I shared my concerns with her, and I learned that Beth is basically enemies with everybody. (I’m her only report.)

    Things have gotten bad and I was planning on talking to Beth’s boss (the CEO) about it, but before I had a chance to, a senior manager took me aside and said that the CEO “is aware” and “is handling it.” I’m not sure if she means that I’m getting a new manager—I’m not sure why that would be a priority for the CEO before I’ve ever made a complaint—or if she’s getting fired. I really hope it’s the latter! I love my job otherwise butt she’s so toxic I’ve started looking.

    1. Not Me*

      If you’re so unhappy that you’re looking for a new job you might want to still talk to the CEO. Just because they are working on it they might not realize how bad it really is. If they are already unhappy with your boss, the possibility of losing a good employee (you) over her performance might be the last straw.

      Good luck!

      1. Not One of the Bronte Sisters*

        I agree. I think it’s possible that the CEO doesn’t realize that Beth is so toxic that you are looking to leave, although you don’t want to. The CEO may be planning to do something about this in the next couple of months but will make it more of a priority if he realizes he might lose you.

  44. MsChanandlerBong*

    Has anyone else ever struggled to work within a flat organizational structure? If so, how did you make it work? All my past jobs have been in hierarchical organizations. Everybody pretty much had a well-defined set of duties. My current org has an extremely flat structure. In some ways, it is nice. I get to do things that I wouldn’t get to do if I had a really defined role. However, it also causes some problems. Everyone has access to everything else (files, email accounts, etc.), so we often end up duplicating each other’s efforts or taking totally different approaches to the same task, leading to confusion. We also have disagreements on how to handle things, which I think would be avoided if everybody had a defined role. For example, I do a lot of the recruiting, but every so often, my boss will ask my coworker to do something like send a mass email to recent applicants. He does it when I am off, so then I come back to 50 emails asking about this email that got sent out that I know nothing about.

    It’s just frustrating. It almost feels like a “too many cooks in the kitchen” scenario. I’ve found that it also makes it a lot easier for my job to keep growing without any increase in compensation. I’ve made the same amount per hour since 2016, but my job duties have expanded tremendously. Any tips?

    1. Sloan Kittering*

      You have exemplified my experience with this. Lots of opportunity to gain experience, but also job creep and lack of advancement oppportunities. It depends on the individual how they weight the two factors, I think. I loved it when I was younger, but now that I’m in the middle of my career I prefer having my own lane so to speak, so I tend to want to find more structured organizations with more specialization.

      1. MsChanandlerBong*

        I think that might be what is happening to me. I’m not getting any younger, and although I like a lot of variety, it’s getting to be a bit too much. There are other issues with this job, so I am trying to make an exit plan, but I have some health issues that complicate things. I either need to start my own business again and get it generating a consistent income before I quit, or I need to find another 100% telecommuting job. I was self-employed for about 13 years, but I gave it up to take this job because I thought it would be nice to have a set schedule. I work from home, which is a real benefit, but I basically can’t afford to keep working here for what I am paid. I keep doing more and more work, and the cost of everything keeps going up, but I don’t get so much as an extra nickel. I also have no benefits, and the leave policy isn’t good. We get 10 days of PTO/year, but that includes sick, vacation, and personal. I haven’t had a leisure day off in two years because I’ve had to use my whole bucket for sickness/hospitalization.

        1. Sloan Kittering*

          Any job with no benefits at all (in the US) doesn’t deserve your loyalty. Leave as soon as you’ve gained enough experience to leverage into a position that protects its employees.

    2. Meredith*

      A flat structure can still include defined roles. It just means there aren’t many levels of personnel management. For example, my company (which is small) essentially has one manager for everyone with the exception of the sales team, who report (along with the manager) directly to the owners. Roles within the team are quite defined.

      Do you use any kind of task or project management software? Is there any kind of task prioritization on an organizational level? SCRUM meetings? Any kind of handbook or style guide for tasks that are completed frequently? If duplication is becoming an issue, I would bring these ideas up with the person you report to. It sounds like you do need at least one defined role – some kind of project/production manager to help you with tasks/workloads/templates.

      1. MsChanandlerBong*

        We use Slack for daily communication, but we have no employee handbook, no meetings, etc. Duplication and confusion are issues because sometimes people forget to leave internal notes on things. So I will come in at 7 a.m., do something that is scheduled to be done, and then later I find out that the instructions changed or someone already did it, but they forgot to leave a note saying there was no need to work on it/there were updated instructions. There are only six of us, so it’s a really small company. Boss is very focused on saving money, so I don’t see us hiring anybody to help with this. We actually just quit using Slack’s Workast feature (which allowed us to create to-do lists for each other) because Slack wanted to charge us for it; we ended up switching to a free project-management tool, so now we only use Slack for messaging.

        1. ContemporaryIssued*

          This would drive me nuts. Doing something twice is not only inefficient, if any of it is communicated to a customer/client, it looks chaotic and unprofessional. We have shared email boxes but in many teams, each box is one person’s domain, unless they are off sick or on vacation, then it becomes another person’s domain. If two people sort through the same box, every single email needs to labeled with a name, and hopefully an additional label on status, like “Alicia” + “waiting for client confirmation” or “Anthony” + “replied to” + “waiting to be invoiced”, so that if Anthony is off sick, Alicia knows where that task is at, can look at the history and if the client asks something, she has a fair idea on what’s going on.

          I have one box on my domain and at one point I agreed to share the box with colleague Stacy but since it was not heavy in traffic, we just ended up accidentally sending the same types of emails, since even with our labeling the box did not update fast enough. Once Stacy had labeled an email and sent it off somewhere, I would be half-way doing the same thing and after I completed, the label showed up and somebody from the sister location emailed us, being like “I got this twice, what’s going on with our email?”. Eventually we decided I would take care of altogether, and leave instructions for her in preparation for time off.

          Sometimes it’s okay to do something twice (we had to recently re-inform a lot of clients on our internal changes because our initial email bulletins about the topic apparently got lost in the shuffle for a lot of clients), but most of the time it’s just ..not great.

    3. Penguin*

      Similar to what Meredith said, it sounds to me like your problem is lack of definition and communication, rather than a flat hierarchy (although I imagine the lack of hierarchy makes it worse). Maybe you can address the communication aspect? If people are forgetting to leave a note, maybe your supervisor would back a system that makes “leaving a note” (i.e. documenting work) /part of doing the work/.

      Something thing like Trello or Airtable (both free), or similar Kanban-style systems, could be helpful in their own right as a way to lay out projects and processes, but I’m thinking of them here as a place to document what’s been done on a particular project. If a new project gets added to it, then the list of tasks is /right there/ and it’s easy for someone to quickly add “Announced this event -Fergus” or “Boss asked me to email Vendor Q today instead of waiting until next week -Jane”. I suppose the trick would be getting buy-in, although a mandate from your supervisor might be all that’s needed.

    4. CM*

      Is it possible to call a meeting with everyone and discuss whether you can agree to divvy up responsibilities on specific projects in order to avoid things like duplication of effort and confusion about whether something got done? (As others have said, there’s nothing about a flat structure that prevents people from having roles).

      The reason I suggest doing it for specific projects rather than just doing it in general is that that still allows people some flexibility in the kind of work they do across different projects — it just stops them from randomly changing jobs in the middle of the workflow for a single project.

      I think this solution would work in a flat organization, but my suspicion is that your problem is not actually that the organization is flat so much as that the leadership is disorganized. If the actual issue is that your boss wants to keep the window open to do whatever he feels like whenever he feels it — or to grab any random person who walks by and task them with any random thing — that’s not really about having a flat organization. It’s about having no structure or organization except “everyone do what I say” and it’s a different kind of problem.

  45. Sloan Kittering*

    My boss wants to start charging people a dollar who make a certain type of error. He says the money will eventually be used to buy breakfast for the team and this way we’ll all learn to stop making this error. It’s a good faith error that’s hard to avoid making (think like, putting 2018 instead of 2019 on a check – something that nobody means to do and is best solved by having someone else look it over). I don’t like that we’d be asking low paid employees to give even a dollar of their money to the boss, but my co manager says it’s really not a big deal. It would not put anyone below minimum wage. Does anybody else think this is a hill to die on, or is it just a shrug and shake my head situation?

    1. Fortitude Jones*

      It’s a hill to die on – that’s ridiculous. If they want to catch these little errors, then they need to put a QA step in place like having a peer review the check before it goes out to make sure the date is correct. Charging people money for typos is a quick way to cause resentment among your employees and, frankly, I’d be looking for a new job if I worked there (and I say that as someone who rarely makes mistakes at work).

      1. Sloan Kittering*

        I personally feel that way! But it’s such a small amount of money that I feel ridiculous making a huge stand about it. To me it’s the message being sent when an employee has to go get their wallet, fish out cash, and hand it over to their own boss, it just makes me feel VERY poorly used, even if the amount is very small and the mistake is theoretically avoidable. My comanager says since the money will be used for the team it’s no big deal.

        1. Cercis*

          I’m going to push back on it being a small amount of money. Depending upon how much they make that could be a double digit percentage of their hourly salary, and even if not, more than say 1% of their hourly salary is a not “small amount”.

          1. Sloan Kittering*

            I should have specified, this error is not so common that it would happen more than once a week, maybe 2-3 times a month at worse. If any of my staff were actually losing a meaningful percentage of their paychecks it would be a different situation.

            1. valentine*

              Please don’t go along with it. It’s frightening you’ve accepted it as reasonable and are trying to improve it. Even if it costs the company, it’s just part of the cost of doing business.

              Your boss has not thought this through. He will get many results, but if one of them is error reduction, that will come at the cost of productivity:
              ~work-to-rule
              ~whatever malicious compliance looks like here
              ~someone has money to spare or doesn’t care and they pay a $10 retainer
              ~someone else is eating ketchup sandwiches, so, even though they’ve never made the error, they now spend an extra hour constantly rechecking

        2. Cat Fan*

          Take a stand on behalf of your employees who probably think any amount of money is too much if it is coming out of their pocket.

      2. The Original K.*

        Me too. IMO it’s a hill to die on. This reminds me of that OP who wrote in because her company fined people for being late and she had to pay her boss in cash. The amount here is smaller than the amount the OP had to pay (I forget what it was but I remember the OP ended up having to pay $90; maybe it was a dollar a minute?), but I’d still refuse if I were asked to pay this fine.

        1. Sloan Kittering*

          Yeah I thought about that letter too. In that case it was easier to argue because it was so much money that it would have been better for her to take the day unpaid!

    2. seasonal allegories*

      I don’t know if I’d die on this hill, but I’d consider it. Especially the check thing… that’s so easy to fix and such a common thing in the first month of the year if not longer, what the frick. Why are they deducting your pay for such things? Because it is a pay deduction.

    3. Bear Shark*

      I would die on that hill if I were an employee threatened with being fined for an error like that. It’s either not a big deal, or it’s a big enough deal to implement a checklist for the process to remind the employee or have someone else check the work, or to formally counsel the employee about the mistakes.

      “Doesn’t put anyone below minimum wage” comes across to me like people defending some jerky or unethical behavior with “but it’s not illegal” especially when it’s low paid employees.

    4. Rebecca*

      I think this is awful and infantilizing. If there is a problem with someone making the same error over and over, address it with that person and be done with it. People are human, we all make errors from time to time, and to be asked to fork over $1.00 as an incentive not to make mistakes is ridiculous. I would be so very tempted to slow my work down to a snail’s pace, just to ensure that no small errors occurred, and then cost the idiot manager even more money. This also reminds me of the swear jar that lasted about 3 days. One of my coworkers decided the occasional “oh sh**” was too much, so she went to our manager to start a swear jar, same result, buying lunch for the team, and the first time she overheard me, she shoved the jar at me and demanded a quarter. I told her to get lost, and no, I wasn’t contributing, and to get out of my office.

      I’d just not have any money with me (whether I did or not) when the dollar was demanded, and if he actually went to a payroll deduction, I’d be having a conversation with HR. And I’d start job hunting.

      1. Sloan Kittering*

        To be fair I don’t think there’s any talk of payroll deduction. Somehow a quarter would feel better to me, maybe I can at least suggest that over a dollar!

        1. Aunt Vixen*

          Use pennies. Or require your employees to hang their heads and be bopped with a rolled-up newspaper. The effect will be the same and you won’t be stealing their money.

          (In case it wasn’t clear, I think it’s a terrible idea and QC processes exist for a reason.)

        2. Deranged Cubicle Owl*

          Sorry, even if it is only 0,25, it would still be ridiculous . I still wouldn’t like (because, for some people even 0,25$/£/€ is still a lot!) and I’d be looking for another job.

    5. Sara*

      I would ask around the office and see how other employees feel. I think there’s another question like this that Allison answered, where she recommended getting a group together to share your concerns with your boss that way no one can be singled out.

      Barring that, it depends on the relationship you have with your boss. Would you feel comfortable going in and talking to them yourself? As long as its not in a confrontational way, any reasonable person would listen.

    6. Paige*

      I’d tell them, plainly, “that would really damage morale.”

      And next time it comes up, “free breakfast would not compensate for employees feeling like they’re being chided like children.”

      And next time, “that will quickly make people very resentful.”

      Not a value judgment, no framing it as an opinion, just state it as fact every time it comes up.

    7. CatCat*

      So what’s the boss going to do if this is someone’s hill and they won’t hand over the cash? Fire them?

      I’d expect at a minimum, this will breed resentment among some if not all. I’d expect work productivity to sloooowwww down as people devote time to double, triple, and quadruple check their work before submitting it to avoid this stupid penalty.

      The solution here is to implement a secondary review process where a second set of eyes can look over the work. Not nickel and dime the employees like this.

    8. Four lights*

      This is terrible. I would pay in pennies every time. Like a sack of them, not a roll.
      And even if it wouldn’t put anyone below minimum wage, the reality is you don’t know your employees’s financial situation. The salary may look good to you, but maybe they have a ton of debt, or have a lot of kids, or sick parents, or medical bills or any number of things that make money tight.

      But also, all this would do is make people more stressed out, which would cause them to make more mistakes.

      If this mistake is such an issue, he should go the other way. People are in teams/groups, and the group that makes the least amount of errors in a certain time gets some kind of incentive-like a special lunch or whatever.

      1. Sloan Kittering*

        Ooh, I appreciate this carrot versus stick suggestion (and my boss might too actually)!

      2. Anono-me*

        A handful of Canadian pennies, and I would make the boss count them and give me a receipt for ‘tax purposes”.

    9. foolofgrace*

      I don’t see how the boss can enforce this. It sounds illegal to me, and while I wouldn’t broadcast my feelings about it, I *would* refuse to pay it. What’s the boss going to do, fire you? He can’t fire you for refusing to do this ridiculous fee.

    10. ANon..*

      I’m wondering how they would enforce this? Like, your boss can’t physically wrangle you into giving him a dollar… If he tries, you could say something along the lines of, “Sorry, I don’t have any change on me! But I’ll try not to make the mistake again.” (Or saying you don’t have any cash on you.) Assuming you’re exempt, he can’t reduce your paycheck.

    11. irene adler*

      Gee, sounds a lot like wage theft if you ask me. They earned the money the boss wants them to give back. Not okay.

      Instead, how about tasking those who commit the error with some small task that’s needed in the dept. Something along the lines of cleaning up the kitchen or breakroom that day, or having to make the coffee tomorrow, or refilling all the printers and copy machines with paper, or inventorying the supply shelves, or ordering supplies for the dept., or cleaning all the white boards in the dept, etc.

    12. Slovenly Braid Cultist*

      Have the company buy the team breakfast every time they go a month without someone making that error.

      Positive reinforcement!

    13. BadWolf*

      I would lean towards hill to die on.

      This sort of punishment means people are likely to hide mistakes. It’s a small mistake today and a big mistake tomorrow that snowballs instead of being quickly fixed.

      If the above doesn’t sway them, handling random extra cash in the office is likely to be a pit of despair. Who is tracking it? Who is making sure it all goes towards breakfast. What happens if someone “borrows” money like it is petty cash or straight up steals it? Who can attend the breakfast (or whatever)?

      You might (stress might) swap it from giving money to handing around a funny thing. Like a garden gnome migrates to your desk if you mess up the date. This is a tricky thing as well — it only works if it’s done in relative good humor. It can quickly turn into a dunce cap of shame (which was a previous AAM letter).

    14. Applesauced*

      I think his logic is backwards – the dollar is supposed to be a punishment for making a mistake, but it used to get breakfast for the office. So the more mistakes you make the more perks you get?

      1. BadWolf*

        Ha — that’s a great point.

        We do occasionally tell people they owe us donuts (or other treats) for doing something very silly. But we are paid well so buying a couple boxes of donuts is not a burden and people bring in treats for a variety of events so it’s not only when something goes badly.

        1. only acting normal*

          We had an office glutton who tried to enforce ever escalating donut fines for various minor things; people just ignored him. (He wasn’t the boss though – had zero standing to do this.)

      2. cmcinnyc*

        Exactly!

        If it’s only a dollar, and the mistake gets made 2-3 times a month, it’s going to be quite some time before that breakfast materializes. Where’s the cash in the meantime? The boss’s wallet? This is a terrible idea.

    15. Not Me*

      It’s definitely a hill to die on since it’s illegal. You might want to bring that up to your boss before they implement it and are facing legal action for violating the FLSA.

      1. Sloan Kittering*

        Hmm, I didn’t think it was illegal. Alison has said before that companies can take mistakes out of paychecks, no?

        1. Not Me*

          Most states have laws stating you can’t charge an employee for making a mistake, or it needs to be agreed upon freely in writing (which is not something an employer will be able to prove). Depending on how many mistakes someone were to make and how many hours they work in a period of time it could bring them below minimum wage, which would be a violation of FLSA.

          It’s a really bad idea and it’s almost certainly opening the company up to legal risk.

    16. Mockingjay*

      If an error recurs among different employees, then the problem is the current process, not the people. Your boss is “fixing” the wrong thing.

      Present this suggestion instead: “Boss, let’s set up a QC procedure to prevent this error. How about I get a draft to you by Friday?”

  46. Bear Shark*

    What is it with recruiters who seem baffled that someone wouldn’t jump on the chance to leave a direct position for a 6 month contract to hire. Sure I’ll give up my vested 401k, PTO, benefits, flex schedule, for less than twice the pay as contract with better than even odds that the “to hire” part is never planned to happen.

    1. Sloan Kittering*

      Yeeeaahhhh, as long as I can I push back hard on this. They do this to entry level people in my field and I think it sucks – employers need to hear the message that good employees don’t want these types of terms. And you know if I took it for 6months and then quit, they’d be totally b*tthurt.

      1. Sloan Kittering*

        This is the “I’m not looking for a commitment” internet date, or the “I’m actually in an open relationship but am looking for a sidepiece” guy. Happy to take all your time and attention, wants to make it clear that there’s no obligation on his part.

    2. seasonal allegories*

      Oh yeah. They do a push, it sounds interesting, and then they say “it’s only for six months”. Like that’s a selling point that I should leave my job for.

    3. Small but Fierce*

      Honestly, I think a good portion of jobs that recruiters have are not desirable. They’re hard to fill for a reason – undesirable terms, bad company reputation, etc. – so that’s when recruiters are involved. They’re probably very aware of how a six month contract role wouldn’t appeal to a salaried permanent employee, but they still ask just in case since those are typically the better candidates. I just politely say no and ask them to keep me in mind for permanent roles in the future.

    4. Windchime*

      I don’t know, but I have a recruiter right now who is being annoyingly persistent about a 6 month contract job that I would have to travel for. No benefits, no PTO, no insurance. I clearly state on Linked In that I work for the major University in my state; why on earth would I leave my secure job with awesome benefits for a contract job in another state? WHY?

  47. Ordancer*

    I work in public accounting so I’m a senior on a team with another senior and two managers. The problem is that no matter how many times I ask questions to try to get updates on what we need to be doing to keep the audit going, the managers only ever seem to share updates and plans with the other senior.

    There is a weird dynamic there where I am a woman and the other senior is a man who is also very buddy-buddy with both managers (ex. they typically only ever ask him to walk with them to get water or coffee – and yes, I do ask them myself, but I always have to do the asking while they will ask him every time they go – and they have even crashed at his apartment after a night of drinking). I don’t know that this actually has anything to do with it but it seems to me like it could be worth mentioning.

    I’d like to pull one or both of the managers aside and point out to them that their failure to ever let me know what the plan is for anything or to pull me into any of the conversations around these items is going to seriously impede my ability to do my job if I’m always having to chase them for answers and working on the wrong things because they won’t tell me otherwise, but I’m not sure how to approach the conversation.

    Any tips?

    1. Jaid*

      Not a tip, but definitely point out the bad optics of not including you in work related matters. Surely they don’t want to be those guys, right? Right?

    2. Michaela Westen*

      Document in case it is actually gender discrimination. There is no limit to how clueless people can be.

  48. Work stress eater*

    I am looking for tips or tricks to deal with stress at work that doesn’t involve eating a candy bar.

    I am a classic stress eater, who goes straight for the chocolate / sweet when stressed. As that isn’t particularly good for my health I am trying to find other coping methods. I am looking for any suggestions on how people deal with stress in the moment. Most suggestions I see to deal with stress are self-care (work out, get a massage etc..) which I agree our important, but aren’t helpful in dealing with short term stress, like an exhausting meeting or finding out your supplier once again missed the deadline for sending you critical information. I find myself think of candy as a reward, ‘ you got through the meeting so now you deserve something sweet ‘

    A little additional background, I work in a office setting in partial cube in an open-ish floor plan, so there is no real ability to get away from my co-workers. I use my vacation days and I don’t consider my self burned out. I’m not working crazy hours.

    So what works for you, when your co-workers are driving you crazy or you just spent a hour explaining to marketing why what they are asking for really isn’t feasible in the time they want it?

    1. CatCat*

      I’m also a stress eater. I bring candy in and I don’t keep cash on me so I can’t use the vending machine. I find crunchy fruits and vegetables that take a while to eat help scratch the itch. So instead of mindlessly stress eating candy, I mindlessly stress eat carrots, sugar snap peas, apple slices, or roasted seaweed snack (if it’s a salty craving, chips are also my downfall!). Clementine oranges are also great since they are easy to peel, but it still takes work to peel them, and super sweet. I’ll eat like 4 in one sitting, but only one segment at a time.

      I also drink copious amounts of fruity teas sweetened with a no calorie sweetener.

      I find these things help since I am still getting the satisfaction of eating something (I think part of it is just the repetitive nature of what has reduced stress in the past!) without the sugar bomb of candy.

      Sometimes I still cave and go to the coffee kiosk in the next building over for a cookie or candy. But most of the time, I eat what’s at hand. The struggle is real!

      1. ANon..*

        Seconding clementines for the same reasons! The peeling aspect as well as the segments slow down eating and the fruit itself is sweet enough to kick a sugar craving.

        Also, rather than a reward system based on food, can you do one based on time? As in, “you got through the meeting, now you can take a quick, 2-minute break and [check my phone/browse a website/stretch and do a quick walk around the office].”

      2. Work Stress Eater*

        I have tried the not bringing in money, but my work makes it really easy to get snacks. All the vending machines take credit cards, and since I carry my cards in my phone case on me I always have a CC. I do like the idea of fruit, I haven’t tried clementines before. With fruit I struggle with remembering to buy it and bring it to work.

        1. BadWolf*

          Do you like grapes? Not sure if you have somewhere to chill them, but if you eat them during the day, probably fine. Unless you can store the bag at work, you still have to remember to bring some in every day.

    2. Jen F*

      Gum. It is a life-saver. It’s not “healthy”, it keeps forever unlike fresh produce and as long as you aren’t smacking loudly or being gross. When I want to hit the candy bar stash, I try gum first as it really does tick a lot of the same psychological boxes as the candy stash.

    3. AliP*

      I am generally not a new-age woo person, but mindful breathing has really really helped. Not so much the reward part, but after a stressful meeting or difficult conversation I focus on closing my eyes, dropping my shoulders and taking a few deep breaths. It actually works!

      I’ll also go for a quick walk (outdoors or indoors) or take a walk to the coffee maker to get a drink and refill my water bottle. Gives me a sec to get away from people.

    4. Rodge*

      I use the ritual of making a cup of tea to calm down sometimes. Sometimes caffeinated but not always, and sometimes I do add honey if I’m feeling the need for a little extra. If I had something really frustrating, taking a minute in our “call room” (tiny room where you can make phone calls since we’re in an open office) in the near dark helps. Or, as ANon says, a few minutes of non-work-related reading. If it’s real bad, I go for a short walk around the block. Or a few minutes in the bathroom with my phone. There can be lots of places to hide for a few minutes even in an open office – I find that taking a break really helps.

      1. Work Stress Eater*

        I have tried tea, but I only like it with a lot of sugar, which kind of defeats the purpose. Its still probably better than a candy bar though.

        1. BadWolf*

          Do you like coffee? If you only like tea with sugar, then perhaps not. If so, you could make coffee with a french press or Chemex or other small drip filter making options. Still some time, ritual.

          There are some fruit teas that are getting packed with a fair amount of flavor. There’s a watermelon one from Celestial Seasonings that I think makes a pretty tasty iced tea.

          Would nuts be a decent swap from candy (not that nuts don’t make a calorie punch of their own). Cashews are pretty nummy.

          How do you feel about very dark chocolate? I like it, but can’t just eat a whole bunch of it. So one square of a fancy dark chocolate bar might cover me when I’d otherwise eat a Snickers.

          1. Work Stress Eater*

            I like my coffee like my tea, with a lot of cream and sugar. We have a cafe in our building that does ‘Starbucks’ and its really easy to go get a caramel latte. It is a nice break and helps with stress, but then I just drank a whole lot of sugar.

            I have never been able to eat any of the sugar substitutes.

        2. Pilcrow*

          I’ve been doing coffee with sugar free french vanilla creamer or making “mocha” with no-sugar added cocoa powder (Swiss Miss, if you want the brand). It takes the edge off the craving.

          I’ve also tried going for sugar free hard candy. Bonus is that is stores well in a drawer without getting all soft and sticky.

          Nthing clementines and/or mandarin oranges. Love those things! As for remembering to bring it to work, do you bag your lunch? I toss the oranges in my insulated lunch bag as a matter of habit. I’ve been known to keep mandarins in my purse. ;)

      1. Admin of Sys*

        Yeah, if there’s an option to go outside and any sort of nature near by (even just a tree) going for a quick walk is useful. Of course, that assumes you have anything other than concrete around, and decent weather.
        Do you have the option for headphones? I find giving myself 5 minutes with my eyes closed listening to my favorite music is a good break, assuming no one tries to interupt me.

    6. The Phleb*

      I’m absolutely a stress eater and while I have found that taking a walk or a break from the situation helps, I can’t always do that. What I DO do is limit the amount of food I actually can eat by using tootsie pops. It takes forever (as long as you don’t bite it) and they are only 60 calories no fat. So where I might have had four candy bars, now I eat two pops instead. Optimal…nope. Realistic…yep.

    7. Kendra*

      My office has free drinks that I don’t normally take advantage of, so sometimes I’ll get a diet soda or vegetable juice as a little reward for myself.

    8. silverpie*

      I always liked using a squeeze-ball. (Actually a racquetball, since I liked a lot of resistance, but that part’s just me.)

    9. otherOther*

      I’m personally not against eating candy in any case- but the money can be a problem if you’re buying them from vending machines.

      If you do things like bring in clementines/etc to snack on, you might also consider bringing in a big bag of fun size candy which you like, but which has small individual pieces. A big bag kept not on your desk but in a drawer can be helpful, and I think having that and telling yourself that you’re allowed to eat it when you feel like it could be a way to avoid buying full sized candy bars without feeling in any way deprived. This is especially true if there’s no way to avoid being able to buy vending machine candy.

      (You could maybe also do something similar for getting one of those big bags with small individual chip bags? that one would take up more space though and I haven’t tried it)

      I also find that a smaller amount of candy I like more is better than a larger amount of just whatever the vending machine has.

    10. ADB_BWG*

      I have the same urge to eat something – ANYTHING – To cope with a surge of stress. Him helps as does seltzer. The fix makes me *think* I’m getting soda. But the only real fix I’ve found is to brush my teeth. A “minty fresh” mouth distracts me from food.

    11. LizB*

      I use the Headspace app to meditate, and will absolutely do a quick session during work in a stressful moment. It does help that my workplace includes a gym and I can easily grab a yoga mat and go lie down in an unused space for 5-10 minutes.

      Comedy also works for me — I have a lot of stand-up comedians I like, and will find a quick clip on YouTube to watch with headphones, or pop out to my car and listen to a bit of a podcast.

      Or, the best of both meditation and comedy: there is a great guided meditation on YouTube called “F*ck That: An Honest Meditation.” It always makes me laugh my butt off no matter how many times I listen to it.

    12. Brilliant Blues*

      This might sound weird but — I have found that when I work in a very meditative, slow-but-mindful, careful way, I don’t feel stressed, no matter how stressful the work “should” be — or how boring or tedious or not-what-I-want-to-be-doing. I wish I could describe it better, but when I am in that mindset, no matter how high-stakes the work is, I don’t feel stressed out, nor do I wish to eat. It is not necessarily an easy space to get in to — but when I do, I am unstoppable and I just plod, very carefully and thoughtfully, through whatever it is I need to do.

  49. Nessun*

    What’s an appropriate amount timeline to send out an offer letter to a temp/contract hire you’d like to offer a full time position to? We’ve got an individual, Tegan, covering a mat leave (roughly 13 month contract), and when the new mom Nyssa comes back from her leave, I’d like to hire Tegan on full time, in a similar role to what she is now (she’d be my report, like now, same as Nyssa was/will be, and Nyssa would retain her seniority and be a mentor for Tegan).

    Tegan knows this is a possibility, as we’ve been open about the idea of having two people in that role instead of just Nyssa. It would take a lot of my plate, and my boss (hiring decision maker) is on board with it. Given that if it weren’t a possibility, Tegan would need to start looking for a job when her contract ends, what’s the right timing to start the ball rolling (ask my boss to confirm we can make an offer to Tegan, given that we can crank out a letter pretty quickly when he gets motivated)?

    I don’t want any weird optics, given that it’s still over 6 months until Nyssa is back – a lot could happen (theoretically, anything could happen!). But I’d like Tegan to know that we value her work to the point we’re willing to make the offer – and really, if we know that now, why wait? (Seriously, are there good reasons to wait?) The contract is over at the beginning of December, FWIW.

    1. CatCat*

      I can’t think of a good reason to wait if this is a sure thing. If you wait, Tegan may leave. She doesn’t need to start looking for a job when her temp term ends. She’s could be looking for one right now.

    2. Overeducated*

      Now! One of my coworkers left last spring because her contract expired in December, and while our boss said “why are you worrying? it’s over six months away,” she was really stressed out about signing a new lease and planning her life around a “maybe we’ll work it out later.” Job searches take a while sometimes.

    3. The Man, Becky Lynch*

      As soon as you’re dedicated to truly hiring her [which sounds like now!], you should bring it up.

      You’ll want to do this because the sooner the better for her and you. This means you won’t lose her to someone else when she’s looking, she can call off her temp agency as well so they don’t have her lined up to work again immediately after your contract expires.

    4. Wendy*

      Did you find her through a temp agency or a direct hire with the company? I started with my current company through a temp agency and there was a clause in there that if they hired me within 6 months of the start of my time there, the company would have to pay a percentage of my salary to the temp agency. It was cheaper for them to keep me through the temp agency for a couple of months but hey had the paperwork all ready to go with the start date being 6 months + 1 day after I started.

      The money was the only reason they didn’t hire me straight away, so unless you’re in a similar situation, I think you should start the process straight away.

      1. Nessun*

        She was a direct hire. Thanks very much for your comment (and to everyone else, too!). I’m glad to know that there’s no such thing as a “too soon” as far as the timeline. I’m going to get the process started next week! We definitely don’t want to lose her, and I’ll be happier too, knowing it’s all in place.

    5. Incantanto*

      Can yoy transfer her to permanent now?
      I’ve been hired permanently halfway through a temo contract, and its great.

    6. Buu*

      Do it now, the only reason to wait is if you don’t have approval to do it yet. It’ll signal to Tegan that she’s doing a good job! As others have said it stops her leaving. Six months is a long time away, so she may not be looking but that doesn’t mean she wouldn’t turn a recruiter down if they pro-actively contacted her on linkedin or whatever.

  50. Fortitude Jones*

    Update on job search:

    I received a verbal offer from a company on Monday and was able to negotiate some pretty fantastic terms – but I can’t put in notice yet or really even talk about this widely because the HR rep who facilitated my negotiations had to submit my hiring form to the company’s CFO for approval. She said this process should take a week or two. I imagine a background check will need to be performed as well, so I’m probably looking at a mid to late May start should everything go smoothly and be approved by CFO. *sigh* I am bored to tears in my current job – I want to move on right now.

    Another company that I already interviewed with also had an HR rep reach out to me to further discuss the role. Apparently, the original HR rep who received my application materials either didn’t pass my cover letter along to the hiring team along with my resume or everyone just didn’t read it because the new HR rep didn’t realize that I asked upfront to work from home for medical reasons (I don’t drive due to a medical condition and the office is located too far for me to take the bus – I’d have to take Uber or Lyft back and forth). The second HR rep tried to think of ways to make this work, but I had to politely decline, which sucks because I really wanted them to be a viable backup plan in case the other job didn’t get approved by CFO. Now if that job doesn’t work for whatever reason, I’ll be back at square one. This is frustrating.

    *And about the WFH request made at the second company, I mentioned it in the letter and told them to only contact me if that was something they could do, they contacted me, and I even asked the first HR rep if this was something that could be accommodated before going in for the in-person interview, and she told me that the company has some people who WFH, so she’d ask the benefits team because my request is an ADA accommodation. Apparently, she did not do this. I’m not remotely surprised though since she also sent me a totally different interview schedule than the one she sent the hiring team I met with in person, so she seems spacey and unorganized in general.

    1. Fortitude Jones*

      And a positive thing I just had happen about an hour ago I wanted to share: one of the Region Vice Presidents I work with on proposals for his niche division just told me how wonderful of a job I do on his division’s work. He said he’s been telling everyone in the division how great I am and how much he appreciates everything I do for his team – he also said he knows this kind of thing doesn’t get said enough to people around here. I was feeling very low today thinking about all of the non appreciation I get on a day to day basis within my own team, especially from my own boss (who gives me the projects no one else wants or really cares that much about while giving the more visible, flashy projects to people on my team she likes personally), so that made my heart swell a little. My own team (well, more like my manager) doesn’t give a damn what I do, but someone recognizes it and appreciates it. It was nice to hear – I’ll miss his team when I’m gone from this place. They may sometimes be a pain in the butt to deal with, but they’re grateful for things, and I appreciate that in turn.

  51. Alice*

    I’ve been learning more at work about service design. In principle I think it’s great, but mapping out all the departments and teams that own something related to even the most narrow client experience of our organization was troubling. No wonder we improve things at the pace of a decrepit snail — coordinating improvements across so many teams is a nightmare.
    Do I try and work with like-minded colleagues to make incremental improvements, even if a central piece of the customer experience is going to remain frustrating?
    Do I focus on services that I can control completely or mostly on my own?

    1. Iris Eyes*

      Would it work to do an initial rough pass that you could use if you are ever able to get the ear of someone who can really change things? And then really dig into the areas that you can control. Hopefully your improvements in some areas will get noticed by those with more clout and then you can help implement wider change. Kinda a lifestyle/influenster model.

  52. RoseTico*

    I have a coworker who, for some reason, likes to pronounce staff members names with a different cultural/ethnic accent for each name especially when it correlates to their background or ethnicity. For example, Mario is said with Italian exaggeration or Thomas is pronounced with a Spanish accent. They haven’t done this to my name and I would shut it down if they did because there is only one way to pronounce my name. No one has really complained but I’m just finding it weird because each of the staff members has introduced themselves pronouncing their name without any emphasis or accent (ie. It’s just Thomas – in the normal way). The coworker doing this does not speak any other languages so I’m not really sure why they are doing this. This may be just be a personal quirk I need to get over but I just wanted to know if this was normal?

    1. straws*

      Your coworker should pronounce people’s names the way that they pronounce them. My name can be pronounced in 3 different ways. I never hold it against anyone who simply doesn’t know any better, but if they continued to purposely mispronounce my name after being corrected (and it wasn’t just a forgetting thing), I’d be pretty offended.

      1. valentine*

        Even if the name is spelled Thomas and not Tomás, maybe your coworker is trying to be culturally sensitive and give them a reprieve from anglicization.

        Several viewers claim to hear Latinx actors rolling single R’s or adding several extra syllables when they’re just pronouncing Spanish names correctly. It’s possible you’re hearing this person as over-the-top when they aren’t. Maybe check with Mario and Thomas.

    2. Minerva McGonagall*

      I had an Italian-American boss who would always pronounce certain words with a strong Italian exaggeration (always food related). It was humorous but he never did it with people’s names. The name thing to me would be a bit too cringy to me.

      1. Four lights*

        For the food stuff, sometimes that’s how they learned how to say it. I have a friend who says “rigata” (ricotta) and “motzerel” (mozzarella) with a hard American accent, but it’s based on how her grandmother pronounced them in her dialect.

        1. Minerva McGonagall*

          In some cases, absolutely, but my old boss would say it both ways. Non-Italian recipe? Without accent. Italian recipe, hard accent. Hearing him order pizza was always a great pick me up.

    4. Liz*

      Do you work where i work? My one boss will do that, but in her case, we have a couple of people who have names that can either be “Americanized” or shortened from say a pronunciation used in another country. I can think of two examples; both employees like to be called what they choose. Think Juan who likes to be called John, and Ekaterina, who likes to be called Kathy. for both, she will call or pronounce their names as they are spelled, or the full name, when that’s NOT what they prefer.

      its not normal, and its actually rude, IMO. call people what they prefer to be called, NOT what you think they should be called. As you can probably tell from my name, its a nickname for my longer, given name. yet I had a former director who insisted on calling me yet another nickname for my given name. despite his staff telling him no, its not Beth, its Liz, ad naseum. In his case though, he was an arrogant, pompous, horses rear who couldn’t be bothered with us “little people”

    5. Fortitude Jones*

      This is not normal, it’s condescending. Your gut instinct is right. People probably just haven’t said anything because they don’t want to be labeled as being irrationally angry or sensitive, but it is pretty offensive.

    6. WellRed*

      I am not italian or spanish but have a name that is common in both those languages and has a lovely musical pronunciation missing in English. But I only expect to hear that from a native, say, Hispanic speaker (This actually came up recently, she asked if I minded.) My dad is a Thomas and it’s definitely not Tomas. WTF? I imagine there are lots of names that are common in lots of languages. Who is she to decide?

    7. Serin*

      Gross and racist. I don’t even want to think about what they do with names that are, say, Chinese.

    8. Not A Manager*

      You can’t do this all the time, but maybe once or twice: When your co-worker mispronounces someone’s name and all three of you are present, could you say to the person-being-named “Oh, have I been saying your name wrong all this time? I thought it was Thomas but maybe you prefer Tomas?”

      It’s best to do this with a co-worker who will be willing to say, “Oh, actually I prefer Thomas!” and not one who will say “Whatever, anything’s fine.”

    9. ContemporaryIssued*

      This reminds me of an episode of the podcast Judge John Hodgman where a guy brought in his friend for saying foreign loan words the way they are pronounced in the source language. It’s kind of pretentious and to be honest, it’s missing the point of how languages work – languages borrow and adapt those words to be apart of their own intonation and pronunciation. There’s also a good shot you’re messing up the pronunciation if you’re not fluent.

      My main instinct on this is that it’s not pretentious but it’s kind of disrespectful. You’re not pronouncing somebody’s name “better” if they themselves say it the standard way for that particular linguistic context. Even people from certain linguistic backgrounds are okay with minor variation. During my year abroad my friend was fine with her Scandinavian name being pronounced the way English speakers found it easier.

    10. Koala dreams*

      I’m not sure what you mean with the normal way of pronouncing names. Many names have many different pronunciation, and you’ll have to ask the person whose name it is to find the right pronunciation. It’s impossible to pronounce it without any emphasis or accent. For example, Thomas could be pronounced with an English accent or a German accent or a Scottish accent, or….. (fill in different US accents if you prefer, I’m not familiar with them so can’t give examples)
      It’s pretty weird of your coworker to delibaretely choose a another pronunciation of the name. It’s just as rude as calling someone a nickname they don’t like, like calling Thomas for Tommy when they prefer Thomas, or the other way around.
      If you want to push back against this, you can calmy comment in the moment, for example “I think they prefer XX, not YY”.

  53. foolofgrace*

    I was on the phone with a recruiter who contacted me about a job. Things were going well until he asked me for my three references. Luckily I didn’t have access to them at the time and said I’d contact him with them. But I thought about it and the request seemed odd, he hadn’t even put me up for the job yet, so I asked him about it. His explanation was that if he contacted the references in advance, “we” would be ahead of the game. I refused to give him the info for that purpose. He was unhappy and didn’t see my logic. I never heard from him again. What gall.

    1. MayLou*

      I think I’ve read here before about recruiters doing this to get more names for their list of people, so they can cold-call them or something. It’s not for your benefit at all, and you probably dodged a bullet there!

  54. MissGirl*

    A year ago I interviewed for Position A. The hiring manager mentioned periodic 60 to 80-hour work weeks but couldn’t speak to how often that would be. I’m sure my lack of enthusiasm came through and I was ghosted. At the same time I interviewed for Position B at the same company on them suggestion of the recruiter. That manager seemed offended I hadn’t initially applied to hers first and the interview went downhill from there; she rejected me that day.

    Fast forward six months and I apply to one position and get rejected, apply to a second (similar roles, different locations) and get auto rejected 30 seconds later. I figure I’ve been red-flagged either by that second manager or by applying too much. I heard this company is sensitive about that. I decide not to apply again for a very long time, if ever.

    Fast forward six months. I’m much happier in my current role and am not actively searching. Especially since I’m up for a promotion and there are some exciting changes coming that may affect my role.

    Yesterday someone reached out to me on LinkedIn wanting me to apply for a position at the same company. He’s not the hiring manager or recruiter but offered to forward my resume along. It’s the exact same Position A, where I was ghosted. In fact I’m still in their system. The old manager is now the VP so I haven’t interviewed with this new manager. It is the same recruiter, however over the spot.

    Usually I would apply because who knows what might happen, but I’m hesitant. Where this company is so squeamish about applying too much, I worry this will hurt my chances at another job down the road that I haven’t already been rejected for. If it had been the manager or recruiter who reached out that would be different.

    What do you think?

    1. Lalaith*

      I wouldn’t. Does the person who reached out to you know that you’d already interviewed for that position? Like you said, if it was the hiring manager or recruiter who wanted you to apply again, and recognized that you’d already been through the process once and could maybe offer a reason why it would be different this time, that could be compelling. But I don’t think there’s enough incentive here to try again.

      1. MissGirl*

        I doubt he would know that. I’m also unsure how to respond. If I decide not to, do I say thanks but I’m not looking or do I say, thanks but I actually already interviewed for this a year ago?

    3. Not So Little My*

      I’m usually a pretty direct person, so I would talk to the recruiter and say, “I interviewed for a similar position in the same group a year ago with Person X but at the time they were experiencing heavy workloads and I removed myself from consideration because that wasn’t and still isn’t a good fit for me. If you think that the current hiring manager, Person Y, would be interested in my application, what would Person Y say about how the workload needs have changed since a year ago?”

      1. MissGirl*

        I actually didn’t remove myself. They never responded either way. I’m not in current contact with the recruiter. The only person who reached out has no say in hiring; he can only pass my resume along.

  56. BeanCat*

    I’m very pleased because while it will eat up most of my PTO for next year (which, fair), my boss immediately approved our wedding date and honeymoon with a warm “congrats” :) It would have been tooth and nail at my previous place for sure, so I feel very lucky today.

    1. Delta Delta*

      Hooray! That’s because at normal, functional workplaces employers want to make sure their employees can celebrate good things, and help them feel good about celebrating.

    2. Sydney*

      That’s great news!

      I’ve worked in places before where I had to resign to take any PTO, and taking a sick day would have been catastrophic to any projects. They under-resourced all the projects, and over promised to clients so we were working 12+ hours a day.

      So glad I’m in a workplace now where this NOT normal and we have access to work-life balance.

  57. anonymous cherry*

    Ok this happened. And I should’nt feel so bad but I feel bad about feeling bad, which is why I hid out in the bathroom and am posting under another handle b/c I still feel hurt by this even though I know I shouldn’t.

    A coworker’s family member passed away. A card and cash envelope went around for them.

    I suddenly lost a family member last year as well. Nothing. I’m trying so hard to not let it hurt. But it stung so much to know I didn’t mean as much to anyone. I do have a friend here and they right away apologized. even w/ the apology, I feel so bad.

    1. LCL*

      I think, when these things happen where one employee receives all of the recognition and the other none, it is often because the recognized employee is more outgoing and well known. The other people aren’t trying to diminish your lost, they are just unaware. I’m sorry you lost your family member. I think you should go home sick if you can, and take care of yourself.

      1. anonymous cherry*

        People knew and they know me, I’m just as known as t he person. I feel for them, having been through the same. Trust me I will never verbalize my feelings on this lest I be THAT person. Just wanted to be in my feelings.

    2. Paige*

      I’m so sorry for your loss. All I can tell you is that your feelings are completely valid, and their behavior isn’t justifiable.

    3. MaureenC*

      Fake advice:
      Passive-aggressively compliment the organizer about how sweet it is they’re doing it for Jackie. “It’s so hard, losing a family member.”

      Real advice:
      If the card is still in circulation, write a nice note to your co-worker–NOT mentioning your own situation. (Try to do this while there are still people who need to sign, so they’ll see your signature and maybe have an “oh shit” moment.) Then take a nice lunch break.

      Perhaps for some of your co-workers their failure may be due to inexperience, and the thought of “what to do when a colleague’s family member dies” never occurred to them before it happened to you, but they’re not that socially bright and it took a while for the idea to crystallize in their minds.

      I am sorry for your loss, and for this event’s reawakening of it.

      1. anonymous cherry*

        Thank you. The card went out to a few people, not everyone so I didn’t get a chance to sign it. I was told she wants to maintain her privacy so I have not approached hte person either.

        I am not sure who organized it but the person I’m closest to in the office felt really bad and apologized a lot for not thinking about it. THey’re a good person so I don’t hold it against them. I know i should not expect anything but this felt like one more incident in a bunch of smaller incidents over the years.

    4. Elaine*

      I’m sorry this happened to you. It does hurt when one person is recognized – for whatever – and you’re not for the same situation. It can be for all kinds of reasons, and probably one of those reasons is NOT that no one cared about you.

    5. The Man, Becky Lynch*

      It’s so bizarre to send out a collection for a loss…and it’s for someone who is desiring privacy so that card/envelope only got passed to certain people? Truly weird to think about.

      I’m sorry that they’ve hurt your feelings, I don’t blame you. It sounds like someone who was extra close or has more knowledge of the situation spearheaded the card/collections project but didn’t think to do the same for you for some unknown reason. Do you know if this other person has a preceived or known financial hardship? Did the person who passed away do so suddenly without any insurance and the person was suddenly in a financial bind? Whereas they probably assume that you don’t have expenses to cover, so they didn’t think to send a collection around?

      Still, that’s why we have a procedure in place for celebrations or grieving situations. We send a card around and it’s a bad look if you ever did this within just a department or few people, we don’t do “cliques” though.

    6. Thomas Beckett*

      I’m very sorry for your loss.
      My recent milestone birthday went ignored. But today my team is celebrating the birth of a horse.
      I have feelings about that too.
      I try to remind myself that it’s accidental or situational thoughtlessness, not an intended slight, but still the feelings are real.

    7. ..Kat..*

      I am sorry for your loss. I am also sorry that this happened.

      I think an office should generally do these things (condolence cards, birthday cakes, etc) for everyone or no one. It is hurtful to be the one who is left out.

  58. Sara*

    Ok so this may sound strange, but I have a coworker who is in charge of showing me how to do her old role. We had a lot of exits from the company, so both of us got bumped up the ladder a bit. I’m doing her old role (and some new things), and she’s stepping in for one of the gaps. I really like her, she’s nice and we get along. There shouldn’t be an issue here. BUT!

    Whenever she explains something, I fall asleep. This has never happened to me before. I go to her desk to learn something, and I end up nodding off in the middle of her kindly explaining step by step how to do something! It’s the cadence of her voice, it’s very soft and patterned so I can’t help it. It doesn’t happen when we’re at my desk, probably because I’m doing something. But I feel so guilty and horrible that she’s going out of her way to instruct me in a new task, and I end up doing this. I’ve fought hard to stay awake, brought bottles of water to drink from, have even eaten/snacked at the desk. Nothing helps.

    Anyone have any tips on how to avoid this? I’m up and energetic for the rest of the day, it’s just this specifically where this happens!

      1. Sara*

        I’m in the middle of taking notes when this happens. Maybe I should use a pen that’s harder to write with?

        1. Amber Rose*

          Can you have music playing through one ear bud?

          A trick that used to work for me while highway driving was holding my breath. I don’t know how practical that is for you, but it gets your heart pounding.

    2. Kathenus*

      Can you stand for the training instead of sitting? Use a clipboard to take notes, but don’t sit where you could more easily fall asleep.

      What about picking a time of day for training that minimizes this. If you’re doing it right after work, maybe it could be done mid-morning instead? Sometime you feel more awake?

      1. Lilysparrow*

        This is what I was going to suggest – don’t sit down. If you have to get on eye-level to see something briefly, squat down for a moment.

        Or if the trainings are very long, plan a break every so often.

        Just as a caveat, if you’re falling asleep in the middle of the day in under a half-hour just because you’re sitting and hearing a soothing voice, then you’re probably not getting enough sleep at night.

    3. Existentialista*

      In addition to taking notes, imagine you’re saying everything she says along with her.

      We did this exercise at a team workshop one time, and I found it helped amazingly with focus. Practice out loud with a friend to get the hang of it – have them tell you a story about something, and try to talk along with them saying the same thing. At work, of course, you have to do it in your head, but the principle is the same.

  59. Kids at work*

    We’re a really small company, and we have 2 employees with elementary/middle aged school kids. Occasionally when the kids don’t have school, they bring them into the office. Both of them are extremely well-behaved, you really don’t know they’re even in unless you see them get up to use the bathroom. So, we’ve never had a problem. I wonder though, if there needs to be a preemptive policy, should someone be hired that doesn’t have such well-behaved children? Or decide that they’ll bring in a younger child in who can’t sit for a few hours and occupy themselves? I tend to handle these types of company policies, and I wonder if I should be on top of this.

      1. valentine*

        Maybe think about liability, especially if the child is inured, what to do if the parent has some emergency or you need them to go somewhere you don’t want the child, and what your max child capacity is. Think about how you’d address a child’s unruly behavior with the parent, including barring that specific kid (because you’re surely not going to bar kids wholesale to avoid focusing on the problem).

        I wouldn’t have a child in the office all day because they deserve better. Where’s their nap- and playtime?

        1. Beth Jacobs*

          Elementary and middle school kids are usually long past napping ;) The fact of the matter is that most schools are out of session for much longer than can be covered by vacation time. A lot of that time can be filled in by camps and other programs, but there’s really nothing wrong with letting a kid chill with a book and crayons for a day.

    2. The Man, Becky Lynch*

      No. As a small company, do not build policies until they are deemed necessary, there’s no reason for it. With things like if you can bring your kids to work or not, that’s best left up to a case-by-case basis. Don’t let it be a sweeping rule with a setup for it because then it opens the door to people abusing the policy as well in the end.

      If it’s not broke, don’t fix it.

      We’ve never had a written policy on this. If someone had disruptive visitors of any age, they’d be responsible for them and be reprimanded and denied visitor access if they misbehaved or caused issues.

    3. Not Me*

      I wouldn’t. You don’t need a policy for everything. If it becomes an issue, you can still address it without a written policy.

    4. Not A Manager*

      Isn’t the policy already “you can bring in your kids occasionally so long as they are very well behaved and no one knows they’re here unless they get up to use the bathroom”?

      Seriously. The issue clearly isn’t bringing in kids. The issue would be if the kids were disruptive. Which they’re not.

  60. scaredtojumpbutreadytofly*

    I can’t quite believe it, but I received an interview request for a verrry stretch job. They were impressed by my cover letter, thank you Alison!! But, now they want to know my salary and I have never done anything like that. It’s a independent gaming publisher. I searched for salaries on Glassdoor based on the job title but nothing sounded like it matched the job description

  61. job interview q*

    I got an email with a date and time for a job interview, without them even asking if it was a good time for me. It’s not, as it turns out – it’s in the middle of my workday and it’s at least a half hour away. I wrote back asking if there was a later time slot available but I haven’t gotten a reply yet. Can I call if they don’t get back to me? This is weird, right?

    I work for municipal govt, if it makes any difference…

    1. Fortitude Jones*

      I had an HR rep do something like this to me recently. She sent me an email like, “Your Skype interview is scheduled for tomorrow at 3pm. Let me know if that works for you.” I responded that it did not because I was actually shipping a proposal that day, so I’d need to do it on another day, and I gave a timeframe on the new date that would work best. She ended up rescheduling for my requested day at a time that was more convenient for me. I thought, “Had you just asked me first whether I had availability on such dates and times, you wouldn’t have had to go back to the interview panel and reschedule everything.”

      Basically, if you don’t get a response from your email soon, absolutely call the person who set up the interview and tell them the date/time doesn’t work for you.

    2. AnitaJ*

      Ughh, that’s so irritating. I can’t speak to the government part of it, so maybe that’s just how things are done, but I would never do that to one of my candidates. People have jobs! People have lives! Let’s work together to find a mutually convenient time!

    3. Sparkly Librarian*

      I work for local government, and one of the things that surprised me when I came over from the private sector was that interview slots were assigned. The HR coordinator just chooses a day that works for the interviewers, and sends out emails telling the candidates which date and time they’ve been assigned. I’ve had several internal interviews since I started with the city, and once that pre-assigned date was the same day I was scheduled to report for jury duty. They were willing to reschedule when I asked, but I get the feeling that it’s not typical for candidates to ask. I certainly wouldn’t have felt able to the first time around — which was December 24th!

    4. Alianora*

      That has been my experience with every government interview I’ve had. So it’s not weird, but it is annoying.

      Probably worth a shot to call them if they don’t get back to you within a couple days.

  62. Countess Boochie Flagrante*

    Tax season is almost over!! I’m not sure why, but it has felt like so much more of a slog than usual this year. Also, my firm cut back on morale events for the season, which is a bummer :( I liked the breakfasts and lunches! But at least we’re getting an ‘end of tax hell’ party, and next week’s a short week to top it all off.

    3. Nervous Accountant*

      YASSSS! What’s your party? We’re havign bowling which is a far cry from the usual meal & open bar shindigs (which I enjoy). The company also gave us all the Friday off

      1. Countess Boochie Flagrante*

        Sadly, nothing as fun as bowling! Just a mixer in the big conference room, but our catering tends to be pretty tasty so I’m not gonna whine :) Plus, it’s during work hours so we can all go home and collapse as scheduled.

  63. Wendy Ann*

    I’m currently job searching and hope to find something soon, however I’m also getting married in early July and have planned to take 2 weeks off (week before and after) since I have friends and relatives coming from halfway around the world and I want to spend time with them, plus you know, wedding stress!

    If/when I get an offer, I know I need to let them know I will be unavailable for those 2 weeks. I’ll probably have to take them unpaid which I don’t mind, but I will definitely not be available to work. Or depending on how close I get an offer to these dates, would it be better trying to push my start date back until after the wedding? I don’t want to work somewhere for 2 weeks and then take 2 weeks off.

    Anyway, what you say would be the optimal length of time to work in a new job before taking a pre-arranged chunk of time off? I feel like if a get an offer and start date in early May, I’d be fine, but if it was in June, I’d be better off trying to push it back.

    1. Minerva McGonagall*

      I was in the same situation when I was job searching last year! I also got married in July and interviewed a lot early last year and into the summer. In my case I had a phone interview the week before I got married and had my in person right after the honeymoon. I let them know that I would be out of the country for most of the dates they offered but these specific dates worked, and they were happy to accommodate.

      I think generally you should be okay negotiating a start date after you get back from your honeymoon if you get an offer in June. You’ll have so much other stuff going on and being able to start with a clear head makes a huge difference!

    2. ANon..*

      You can discuss it with them and see what their needs are once they make an offer! They may say they would love to have you start and then take the time off unpaid because then you can overlap with the person currently in the role. Or they may say they’re okay pushing the start date back a few weeks or more. But if you’re flexible with the options, then it’s fine to let them decide based on their needs.

      Congrats! I’m also getting married in early July – hope the planning is going smoothly!

    3. Tina Belcher's Less Cool Sister*

      Congrats! I was in your position last year – job searching in the spring, getting married in August, and would need to relocate. I agree with other commenters to just ask them what would be better on their end. For me, it worked out that I got the offer in mid-June and didn’t start until mid-August, but other workplaces would probably prefer you to start earlier and then take those two weeks off.

      Good luck on the search and congrats on your upcoming marriage!

  64. Minerva McGonagall*

    Planning on going back to school but not sure for what…

    I work in higher ed but my undergrad is in history, which is my real love. I love working in a college and academic environment and have a masters in education (which I needed to get further), and I love learning. I’m torn between two very different programs.

    One is an Ed.D in Higher Education and would be through my workplace, but almost all coursework is online. 50% of it is covered by my employer, but it’s still expensive. It does have a week-long international experience covered through tuition, and a dissertation component. I’m also worried about being too-overqualified for future roles because of having a doctorate this young (I would finish it at age 30). Getting a doctorate is something I absolutely want to do.

    The other option is an online MA in History through one of the state universities in my state. It’s cheaper than the Ed.D with the discount. Getting an MA would allow me to teach history at the undergrad level in addition to my work in higher ed. I think I would be more excited by the coursework in the MA but would also enjoy the coursework in the doctorate. I’ll likely end up doing both at some point, but just trying to decide what’s worth it to do first. If anyone has any advice I would greatly appreciate it!

    1. Lemon Zinger*

      I have a BA in history and work in higher ed. I did a Master of Education in Higher Education because I thought it would lead to promotions/better pay. It did not. My supervisors don’t have advanced degrees and are pretty disdainful of people who do. I don’t regret doing it, but it feels like it was a waste of time unless I want to pivot to another part of higher ed (and I don’t– I like what I do).

      What do you really want to do with your career? Do you want to teach history or do you want to work on the admin side of higher ed?

      1. Minerva McGonagall*

        That’s why I did my M.Ed. and it eventually led to a promotion and better pay, but I had to go to a different university to get it. I really enjoy what I do now at the Assistant/Associate Director level, but would love to be a Dean one day. I think I would enjoy teaching history more so than teaching the first year experience courses I do now. Honestly I just love learning and am really motivated by school, which is part of the reason this is a tough choice!

        1. elemenohpi*

          Well, if your goal is to become a dean, the Ed.D sounds like the more relevant degree.

          I agree with Meredith below about it being hard to teach with an MA in history. In my area (large city), PhDs are competing to adjunct at two-year community colleges.

    2. Meredith*

      I have an MA in history. If your goal is to teach, even with an MA being required as a basic qualification, you will be competing with plenty of PhDs who are only able to find work as adjuncts. Unless your workplace has assured you of this, and even then, I’d be skeptical. The candidate pool is just too flooded with highly qualified candidates.

      30 isn’t that young for a doctorate. The earliest age people usually get them is 27. My husband got his at 27 and did a post-doc, and since then has worked in private industry in roles where either a masters or PhD is required. (His is in applied mathematics.)

      Any interest in an MLS or museum work?

      1. Minerva McGonagall*

        I’m in a pretty college saturated area, and currently adjunct at my school but in first year experience. I think I would enjoy teaching history courses a lot more. I’d also just be happy having it, because I loved the history undergrad experience and tolerated the M.Ed. experience. I wouldn’t leave my job to adjunct either, it’d just be on the side. I’m not super interested in an MLS but semi-interested in museums. I do love my job in higher ed but always looking ahead!

    3. Elya*

      I’m a history professor and currently the chair of a hiring committee. Yes, technically an MA in history would be the minimum requirement to teach at some schools, particularly community colleges. In reality, however, the job market for history professors is glutted, has been for years, and things are only getting worse. I am currently reviewing applications for part-time adjunct work at a non-exclusive college in a rural area. I have plenty of candidates to choose from. Many have completed PhDs and extensive teaching experience. It is quite unlikely that anyone with just an MA will even make the list for the phone interviews. If you really want to teach history at the college level, you need a PhD in history (the EdD would not help). But given the realities of the job market, I would advise against it.

      1. Minerva McGonagall*

        Thanks for sharing your experiences! I was not planning on teaching full time regardless but mostly just being eligible to adjunct in history at where I work now. The other adjuncts in history do not have a PhD, and I believe only one of our full times has a PhD, but it’s a small school.

    4. Pam*

      The MA could also open up higher ed positions with ‘Master’s preferred’, and make it possible for you to teach- at my campus, teaching first-year experience courses is done by staff with Master’s degrees.

      1. Minerva McGonagall*

        I have an M.Ed. already but I’ve been counting that as my ‘work degree’ and I kind of want to do a ‘fun degree’ (at least in my mind, history is fun). I’ve been teaching fye classes and it’s been going alright, but did get me thinking about what other classes I could teach and history came to mind immediately.

  65. alldogsarepuppies*

    My coworkers and I disagree – is it unprofessional to accept LinkedIn invites from clients.

    2. Middle Manager*

      In most fields I don’t think it’s unprofessional. In some it might be though (I’m thinking of health care in particular, but there may be others).

    3. Cercis*

      I think it depends upon your field. If you’re a counselor/therapist/social worker probably unprofessional. Other medical professional, potentially unprofessional.

      For other fields, it’s not unprofessional for any reasons I can think of. Maybe find out why your coworkers feel the way they do.

    4. Meredith*

      No, I think that’s one thing it’s for. It’s professional networking. Facebook, on the other hand…

    5. The Man, Becky Lynch*

      No. It’s a professional networking platform.

      It’s Linkedin not Facebook!

      My vendors connect with me all the time.

  66. foolofgrace*

    “Thank you for contacting me about the job, but I’ve already accepted a position.” How wonderful to be able to say that, turning the tables for a change! As it happens, the job I accepted is one I first applied for NINE months ago. Because it’s a position with the police, I had to jump thru umpteen hoops — a polygraph, deep background check, a home visit, a drug test that tested both pee and hair, my college transcripts, pay stubs, and I don’t remember what else. It’s been a long road, and the pay isn’t that much, but I’m too old to keep taking contract after contract — this job is a permanent job with health insurance, vacation and sick days, etc. I’m at an age where it will probably be the last job I take, at least I hope so.

  67. That Girl From Quinn's House*

    I have a question re: applicant tracking systems. I’ve worked for two companies where I had several different job titles, some overlapping. So it’s written:
    Company
    Title 1-Dates
    Title 2-Dates
    Title 3-Dates
    Title 4-Dates
    Bulleted list of important information regarding my time with the company

    But then when my resume gets updated into the applicant tracking system, they ask me to input each job as a separate entry. So it ends up looking like this:
    Company, Title 1, Bulleted List
    Company, Title 2, Bulleted List
    Company, Title 3, Bulleted List

    For the job description, am I supposed to then break down the bulleted lists to each job description, ex: I only supervised Llamas under Title 2 so the Llama-related Description items go under Title 2, while the Alpaca related lines go to Title 3? Or should I just put the same job description blurb from my resume for all four of them, because it’s more descriptive of how things worked at that particular workplace?

    It drives me nuts either way.

    1. CM*

      If the system is allowing you to attach your CV, then, in cases where you held each job title only for a short time, I would just condense it all into one job for the purposes of the application system and make a note in the description box that you actually had a few different titles. If they want to dig into it, they can read the CV.

    2. WalkedInYourShoes*

      If the field is optional for job description and jobs, I would recommend leaving it blank and the hiring manager or recruiter can review your resume.

  68. Pollycom*

    My boss called me in for a performance counseling discussion about a month and a half ago, saying that my job would be on the line if I didn’t shape up immediately, and that I should think hard about whether this is really the right job for me. The truth is I haven’t been in peak form lately – I’m extremely burned out due to being in an industry that requires very long hours and very little time off (anything more than the occasional personal day is frowned upon – forget about real vacations – and sick days are also discouraged except for dire emergencies), plus I am dealing with some very stressful family issues. Since the discussion I have given the work my all (to the great neglect of anything else in my life), and while my performance has improved, it is still not where it ultimately needs to be to meet my boss’s standards. Thus, I have come to the conclusion that, no, this isn’t the right job for me. I am due to meet with my boss again in a couple weeks to assess where I am with my performance improvements. Would anyone have advice about how to handle this discussion? I really cannot continue at this pace (which is likely good enough not to be on the fast-track to termination, but is still somewhat disappointing to my boss), and if I work fewer hours and/or my performance reverts to the pre-counseling level I will likely be fired in short order. I am concerned about just being honest with my boss that despite my best efforts I am not able to meet his expectations, as he tends to view both people leaving, and people not performing to his standards, as personal betrayals. Obviously I need to be looking for another job that is more suitable for what I can give to work right now! But not sure what to say to my boss, and if I should continue to work myself into the ground until I have something else, or just tell him, “I can really work 50 hours a week, max, right now with everything else going on in my life – will that be okay for the time being, or should we talk about what makes sense for my last day?”

    1. Kathenus*

      Alison has addressed this before. I think it’s a great idea to be open and say that this won’t work out for either of you long-term, and could you discuss a transition plan for you moving out of the position. This might give you some breathing room to look for another job, give them coverage in the meantime while they look to fill the slot, and keep things on a more positive footing. This wouldn’t be able to be indefinite, they might set a specific time period they can do this or tie it to a maximum of when they hire someone, but it could take the stress of worrying whether or not you’ll keep your job every day. An honest conversation might work out well for both parties. Good luck, and I hope that your family situation improves as well.

      1. Pollycom*

        Thanks! That is indeed the advice I recall from similar questions Alison has received – I was just wondering if there are any particular tweaks when the boss in question is…difficult. (Mine tends to respond to employees’ honest declarations about their own limitations with accusations that they are lazy or ungrateful, and requests for understanding surrounding short-term personal difficulties are met with a response that the employee is being immature and unprofessional for not being able to function seamlessly at work during tough times.) Still, I will try this; it seems to be the most honest and straightforward way to proceed, and if my boss reacts badly, at least I will know I did my best to handle the situation ethically.

        1. valentine*

          You can’t win with this guy, so do what serves you.

          I struggle with 45 hours, so 50, especially since it’s a reduction, is a Klaxon-level emergency. Either offer the lower amount of hours for a limited time or insist you’re returning to top form.

    2. MissDisplaced*

      Sometimes, it really is the best to be honest that this is not the right fit for either of you, in spite of you really trying make the effort and to keep the pace required. If both parties agree, then you can ask for some agreeable terms to exit on good terms that would be mutually beneficial to both parties, such as staying on until a replacement is found, or for a certain amount of time, or under reduced hours, etc.
      Also get agreement in advance from your boss and HR what the language will be so that it will not come across as a termination for cause. In this case, you could agree that the expectations around work hours were not compatible.
      But if it gets abusive, be prepared to just give notice and leave.

    3. Not One of the Bronte Sisters*

      I think those are good ideas. I would also say that you would like his agreement that you will be able to collect unemployment, or you assume that you would be eligible for unemployment, whichever wording you think would be better.

    4. Not A Manager*

      What a jerk.

      You could butter him up by thanking him profusely (but not weirdly) for being so straightforward with you and giving you the opportunity to really think about whether you continue to be a good fit for the job. Because of his coaching, you’ve realized that while you were the right person for the job for quite a while, you can no longer provide the hours that the job really requires. You really appreciate that he raised the issue with you, and will work with him to bring your replacement up to speed during your notice period.

    5. CM*

      Don’t fire yourself. Be honest about what you are and aren’t able to do, but leave it to him to say you can’t work there anymore or it’s time to think about your last day. Partly because that might buy you more time to look for another job and partly because, depending what the laws are where you live, you’re probably in a better position to get severance/unemployment/whatever else if you’re fired as opposed to if you voluntarily resign.

      Also, don’t accept the idea that you’re a bad person because you can’t do this. Even if we assume the expectations at this job are fair — which I don’t have enough info to judge — sometimes it doesn’t work out with a particular person, and that doesn’t mean anything bad about the person. This is just a case of “Realistically, I don’t think I can do what you’re asking me to do.”

  69. Over Analyst*

    Anyone have tips on packing for a long trip? Work’s sending me to Alabama for a month soon. I’m allowed one regular size suitcase, and we get a per diem so I’m not separately reimbursed for laundry so would like to minimize that. It’s business/business casual during the day but nights and weekends are my own. Any packing tips or ideas for weekend things to do would be appreciated!

    1. Temperance*

      Would your company allow you to Fed Ex anything to/from the site? I sometimes do that when traveling.

      1. KX*

        Is it worth it to pay extra to pack and take a second suitcase? Averaged out over your per diem, could you reimburse yourself from that? Laundry at a laundromat might not be that expensive, either, although it will take time and effort (if you don’t have access to a car). Hotel laundry service is usually ridiculously expensive.

        1. ..Kat..*

          This is a great idea. I think a second suitcase costs $50-75 to check. So, round trip = $150. Divided by 30 days = $5/day. It isn’t just about the cost, however. Some of it is the convenience. One suitcase for a month? And you have to wear business/business casual?

          That said, if you want to stick to one suitcase, think skirts/pants/blouses/cardigans/blazers that can mix and match.

          Good luck! And have fun!

    3. Glomarization, Esq.*

      A week’s worth of mix-and-match separates for the workplace, a couple of mix-and-match outfits for evenings and weekends. Maybe buy some clothes there and mail them home?

      If your concern is people noticing that you’re repeating your clothes “too much,” I mean, what are you gonna do? They should understand your wardrobe is limited because you’re there only temporarily.

      1. NotAPirate*

        Mix and match can be a lifesaver. Two sweaters can double the number of outfits you can make. Likewise a black and a blue pants. People are really unlikely to notice you are repeating outfits too though, unless its back to back days. I think that’s one of those things that really stands out to you but doesn’t clock other people’s radars.

        In terms of trying to fit more in luggage, tank tops that all get worn with the same dark blazer work really well. Wear the dark blazer on the plane and then fill suitcase with tanks. Compression sacks can help take air out of stuff in luggage as well as keep organized. Rolling instead of folding as well.

    4. Lilysparrow*

      What part of Alabama?

      If you’re outdoorsy, there’s lots of great opportunities to bike, hike, canoe, golf, garden tours, you name it. If you’re near the coast, it will be decent beach weather.

      There’s a lot of historical sites, including some Native American archeological sites, the Civil Rights trail, and others.

      Arts, music, and nightlife are going to depend on what metro area you’re near. Birmingham has a burgeoning foodie/craft brewery scene. The big college towns get more smaller bands doing pub tours, etc.

      1. T. Boone Pickens*

        If you haven’t booked your hotel yet, I’d strongly advocate getting one with a kitchenette built in so you can buy some groceries and avoid having to eat out all the time. Also, there are some hotels that come with a washer/dryer in unit which could be a a really nice time saver for you.

      2. Bismuth*

        Pack for summer weather! May will already be hot and humid.

        And eat some BBQ for me, please.

    5. Gumby*

      For packing – capsule wardrobes. I was recently looking at this site – https://www.theviviennefiles.com/ – which has lots of samples, recently drawing from art pieces which is very cool. The “travel” capsule wardrobes are smaller, but even the full-size ones are not that large. (I have horrible, no good, very bad fashion sense which is why I was looking.)

    6. AcademiaNut*

      I second the advice to find out what the extra luggage costs are and be willing to pay for a second suitcase if it’s not too exorbitant – it will make it much more comfortable! Also the advice for a kitchenette, or at least a bar fridge in the hotel room – a month of restaurant food can leave you feeling like crap.

      Pack stuff that’s versatile, so that you can mix and match tops/suits/slacks/blazers/shoes at will. On the flight, wear your bulkiest items – your jacket, hiking boots if you’re taking them, sweater, etc. Check the weather – if it’s hot and humid, you’re going to need to wash stuff regularly. I live in a hot and humid climate, and clothing gets stinky way faster than it does in drier climates.

  70. Karen from Finance*

    This week I turned down a very attractive job offer, on grounds that it was a longer commute from my house and that I wasn’t absolutely 100% sold on the company. But the offer was crazy good, the kind that don’t happen often, and I’m really not sure if it was the right choice.

    It turned out for the best I think. The HR guy sounded honest when he said they were interested in me for the company beyond filling this specific role, and that we can stay in touch through Linkedin for any future openings, that he can see in the horizon for a few months from now. So it’s nice to know that there’s a possibility that I didn’t completely throw away a once-in-a-lifetime opportunity.

    1. Karen from Finance*

      Meanwhile at my current job: I was at a meeting when one of our managers got a message informing her that a rat had attacked one of the workers at the warehouse. I am advancing into more of a manager role, in the sense that I am managing all of the manager’s emotions – everyone has started feeling comfortable enough with me to complain to me about everyone else. A lot of people are quitting and those roles are taking too long to be replaced, so we’re all going slowly insane.

    2. The Man, Becky Lynch*

      This is fantastic news though, since you got to turn it down and still had a good networking connection to keep the door propped open in the future.

      1. Karen from Finance*

        Yes! Even though I’m back at square 1 with the search, it’s still a big progress for the connection and for the whole experience.

        And I wanted to thank you in particular. You and Alison have helped me a lot throughout this whole thing, I appreciate it.

        1. The Man, Becky Lynch*

          Awww, that’s very kind, I’m glad to have helped out. I still have your back, can’t wait until you do find the job that you’re dreaming of! I’m a firm believer in everyone at least feeling content with their job/company at any given time.

          I’ll also say that you will probably be able to find another job with a killer offer. Maybe not “that good” but it’ll be surprising in the end. Don’t lose too much hope on that front.

          A recruiter just reached out with a lead for a job that was offering about 20k over average market rates. The economy is changing and companies who can afford it, are paying a lot more to find the right people, it’s hard to get people to move companies otherwise since we’re not stuck in the stagnant life of the recession years.

    3. Lepidoptera*

      On one hand, it’s good that they see value in you as a potential employee. On the other hand, what would an offer for a different position change, in regards to your reservations about the commute and the company itself?

      1. Karen from Finance*

        I went from working many years in a Fortune 500 company to working in a startup of 85 employees. I think I might have overcorrected: Fortune 500 companies have some problems for people with my personality, but startups can be wild. I think I may have overshot it. I’m now currently targetting companies that are more in the middle: not 100 or 100,000 employees, but 1,000. Not super established but not “we have no idea what we’re doing”. As I told my friend the other day “I’m controllership. I want to bring order to chaos, but I want to be Marie Kondo, not the team from Hoarders”.

        My main concern is that this other company is also a startup that is growing, and I don’t want to get sucked into the same wild ride that I’m trying to escape (even with more money).

        But I don’t rule out that I may change my mind about this in the future, so keeping the contact with them works for me. I’ll be keeping an eye on them, and see if I make up my mind on what it’d be like to join them.

      2. The Man, Becky Lynch*

        Your POV on a company can change over time. So being connected with someone there, you may see your feelings towards them change.

        Also she may move closer, then the commute isn’t an issue either. Or if an opening is available for a position where the commute is then not such a big factor [say they offer work from home for that position], that could change the playing field as well.

    4. Fortitude Jones*

      I too just turned down a job that would have been glorious salary-wise (between 80-90k a year with unlimited vacation time to boot), but that I wasn’t remotely interested in long-term. What’s for you will come – you didn’t make a mistake, and neither did I. And hey – maybe a better job at that company that’s the exact right fit for you will come along.

  71. Hermione*

    Can anyone give advice on how to deal with being about to change roles on a CV and job application? We had a huge restructure at work, and as a result I am due to change jobs shortly. In fact, our online HR system shows me as already in the new role. Some opportunities in the area I really want to work in have come about, and I can’t pass them up. On my CV, should I just put my current role to ‘present’ and be ready to explain the situation at interview? I’m in the UK in a large financial institution.

    1. Karen from Finance*

      Large Financial Institution LLC, 2000-present
      Herd Specialist, April 2019-present
      Llama Groomer, Jan 2000-April 2019

      1. Hermione*

        My worry is that I haven’t actually started my assigned post-restructure role so I don’t know whether to mention it at all.

        1. Karen from Finance*

          I think that by including it as start date “April 2019” it’s clear that it’s a new role, and they’re bound to ask about it in the interview. And your HR system already shows you in this role so you’re effectively in this role as of this month, even if you haven’t really finished transitioning to the role in terms of tasks yet.

    2. ContemporaryIssued*

      I really don’t know UK CV formatting but in my country we also use CV’s and I have put my current role which also went through a change as something like this:

      Oatmeal & Coffee Inc, 2018 – present (Coffee Tester in 2018 at Ground Beans sister location, currently Oatmeal Inspector at head office)

      Maybe my way is overly complicated, and I would honestly love to hear different suggestions on this.

  72. Tina Belcher's Less Cool Sister*

    We tend to see a lot of questions about workplaces with inappropriate boundaries between coworkers, but I have the opposite problem! I work with a fantastic group of about 35 people. I work in university fundraising, so our relationships among colleagues are warm, open, and professional while also being appropriately social. Our field is big on networking and we are adept at making polite chit chat since that’s literally our job. I know this sounds like a literal nightmare for many commenters here, but I love what I do and I greatly enjoy the people I work with.

    My husband and I just bought a house and are planning a housewarming party in the next few months. Everyone at work knows about the house and have been very supportive and excited for us, and I’d like to invite the division to the party (totally normal in my office culture). We’ll also be inviting family and non-work friends, which will be fine because my friends are young professionals who aren’t likely to be inappropriate around my colleagues.

    The dilemma I’m facing is that the house has a hot tub, and I’d like to invite my family/friends to bring bathing suits and jump in….but I’d really rather not extend that invitation to my work colleagues, nor do I expect any of them – with the exception of one or two very close work friends – would WANT to get in a hot tub in front of their coworkers/bosses.

    Any suggestions on finding the balance between professionalism and having a fun, relaxed BBQ? I’m thinking I’ll let my colleagues know the party will start around 2, with the BBQ and hot tub opening around 6pm – that way they can self-select to arrive early, see the house, and clear out before the real fun starts.

    1. ContemporaryIssued*

      I think the safest way to do this is just to not have the hot tub active at all during this party. If somebody asks, say it needs to be cleaned properly first.

      1. valentine*

        This sounds like an extremely long day for you and has an extremely high sitcom-mishap potential, with someone from party 1 finding out about the secret BBQ/hot-tub afterparty, unless you are planning for friends and family to arrive before 6:00 and stay later, in which case your colleagues won’t understand why the invitation said 2:00-5:00 (and is there no food then?) and why you’re ushering them out early.

        I agree with the advice to exclude the hot tub (cover it) and have just one no-hot-tub party (if you want fam/friends to meet your colleagues) or two parties.

    2. Lemon Zinger*

      I don’t think you can have both. Just don’t make the hot tub an option for the party. I wouldn’t feel comfortable hot-tubbing with coworkers but YMMV.

    3. Overeducated*

      I think these just sound like two difference parties. (Not that you have to separate both groups, but don’t include hot-tubbing at a party with coworkers.)

    4. Tina Belcher's Less Cool Sister*

      I also just have to acknowledge what a bizarre question this is. I never expected “hot tub party” to be a topic I’d have to discuss.

      1. That Girl From Quinn's House*

        As someone who’s been a swim instructor, I’ve been in many a hot tub with my coworkers!

        1. MayLou*

          Haha yes, I have been in a swimming pool with a colleague – I was second staff member at a swimming lesson. Not what I’d have expected working in a children’s centre! Semi-nudity in front of clients was NOT on the job description.

    5. Rusty Shackelford*

      Yeah, you can’t really tell people that they’re invited to part of your party but not the entire party. Not politely, anyway. Also, if the BBQ is at 6, what are you doing for the people who you expect to clear out by then?

    7. AcademiaNut*

      You can’t have a party with an A list and a B list, and your employers are going to notice if you’ve invited them but expect them to clear out “before the real fun starts”. Even if they don’t particularly want to use the hot tub, that’s going to make them feel bad, and is going to make you look bad.

      So have a general open house for the house warming – food, people can drop in and out – and have the family and real friend hot tub party some other time.

  73. Blocking Things Out*

    Semi-regular poster, going anon for this because it’s related to some emotional stuff that I don’t necessarily want to be ‘out there’ yet. (Alison, if it’s too personal, let me know and I’ll post again tomorrow.)

    TLDR: How do you stop your personal stuff interfering when you’re at work?

    Background: I started a new job at the beginning of the year, and am really enjoying it. It’s similar to the work I was doing before, but more challenging/strategic/high level (though there is still lots of day-to-day stuff for me to do as well given how small our team is). However, over the weekend I had a revelation about my marriage that’s really knocked me and caused me to re-evaluate a lot of stuff, and it has been really interfering with my work this week – I’ve been very unproductive, missed a couple of deadlines etc, and I know it’s raising concerns with my manager. He is currently out of work for a couple of weeks after a medical procedure, but still emailing me about stuff, and the last thing I want to do when he’s ill is stress him out further. But I just feel like my brain cannot get fixed on work, even though in the past having something else to focus on has been a big help.

    Part of me wants to just be alone and wallow and work through my feelings, but realistically I don’t have the luxury to be able to do that as we’re going into a particularly busy period and I need to do as much prep as I can to help my team out. My usual tactics, like Pomodoro technique, exercise etc, are not helping to get my mind off stuff, or at least not as effectively as they once were. So what can I do to leave home stuff at the door and make sure that at work, I’m at work?

    1. merp*

      I went through a time when I went similarly, and I found it helpful to sometimes just take 10 minutes and let myself type out my imaginary letter/upset feelings/distractions in a google doc or somewhere unimportant. It didn’t always work but sometimes it helped me move on to productive things for the next couple hours. In the worst of it, I definitely did it at the beginning of the day (bc I found when I sat down that I had been stewing about it for my whole commute) and sometimes over lunch too if I needed to.

      1. Blocking Things Out*

        I do actually have a Google Doc that I’m using as a sort of ‘feelings dump’ on this (it started as an email to Captain Awkard but is rapidly getting way too long for that). It’s helping a bit, but I still feel like I’m in my head too much. Maybe rationing it to the start of the day and lunch is a good option.

    2. BluePinkWhite*

      Been there on the “big marriage stuff taking over my brain” – and my boss was out the office the week I was first grappling with stuff, too.

      Can you take *some* time off? I know you’re prepping for a busy season, but can you work shorter days (take the rest as sick or personal time depending on your PTO structure) with lists of things that HAVE to get done each day? That’s the only way I got through Week 1 of my Big Marriage Revelation, was coming in late and leaving early. Indulging myself in that small way really helped me be more present for the time I WAS working.

      Also – if this is something you can share with a therapist or some trusted friends — do that! Keeping a big revelation a complete secret just adds to the stress, if you’re not able to process with others. If it’s something you’d need your spouse’s permission to share, then make sure you’re communicating just how much stress it is to keep it completely to yourself, if that’s true for you.

      1. Blocking Things Out*

        Thanks for the reply. I’m going to speak to the other directors on Monday and see if I can do that. I think I might take leaving early (and coming in earlier) as not sure starting late will do me much good right now.

        I’m also trying to arrange a time to meet up with a lovely kind friend who has offered to talk things through with me – hopefully on Sunday/Monday.

    3. The Man, Becky Lynch*

      This will only work if it is indeed a temporary thing that you just need to work through [which marriage issues, health issues fall under in my experience, it depends on the person though with how they deal with life upsets]. You should be somewhat clear with your boss that “Something” is weighing you down personally and that you’re actively working on it.

      It’s not an excuse, its an explanation. When I had a loss in my life few months ago, it took me for a spin emotionally. I was a zombie one some days processing the feelings and grief. So when I sat down with my boss for a usual 1:1 I told him point blank “Just so you know, I’m in a bit of a personal fog lately, I just got the news that Loved One has passed away and it’s taking a bit of a toll. I’m sorry if I’m forgetful for need an extra nudge but please bring it to my attention if you see me dropping the ball so I can pick it back up.”

      My boss is great and works with these kinds of things well, especially when you’re up front with him about things. I used my schedule flexibility to my advantage as well. I came in earlier and left earlier so I could have more quiet time without everyone here for the tasks that were taking me more bandwidth given my emotional strain.

      It’s one of those things that you may want to seek therapy for as well, that would give you a lot of tools to deal with the emotional drainage as well.

      I relied heavily on check-lists and alarms to keep me on track.

      Granted in the long run, I’m better at staying dedicated to work when I’m stressed. My dad just tells me to stay busy, which he knows all too well since between all his major surgeries and treatments five years ago, I worked full time because if I didn’t work through it, I would have just given up on life.

      1. Blocking Things Out*

        I’m so sorry for your loss.

        Thanks for the reply and advice. My directors aren’t going to be in next week and it’s not something I feel comfortable saying over the phone (I’m a bit scared I’ll break down if/when I have to say things out loud), but I will email them to apologise, say something has been going on and that I’m working on it, but please give me a nudge if they need to. And the alarms/check list suggestion is good too – I do do a bit of the latter, but I think writing everything down that I need to do will be a massive help just to get my head in order.

    4. Not A Manager*

      What’s helped me compartmentalize in the past has actually been scheduling a time and place in my own mind where I’ll be allowed to “wallow” and feel my feelings. I’m better able to push things down and function if I know that I’ll have a hot bath later, or take myself out for dinner at the end of the week.

      It might help to tell your boss that that you have some issues in your personal life (or that you recently had some bad news), that you know some things fell through the cracks this week, but that it will not continue to happen.

      If you can make time for a few sessions with a counselor, that might be a really good investment of time and money. Also, as someone who has had to manage some life crises – meds can be your friend. Not forever, maybe, but in the short term to help you function (or sleep).

      My thoughts are with you. I’m sorry you’re going through this.

      1. Blocking Things Out*

        Thank you for the kind reply. I’ll try the scheduling thing, and am looking at booking some emergency counselling sessions – both are not the easiest for various reasons, but I think they might be helpful. I’ll talk to my directors on Monday as well.

    5. NewNameJustForThisBecause*

      Just… sending hug. I’ve been there. You’ve been given great advice. Be gentle with yourself. I also – when I was there – did compartmentalize when I was at work. “I’m here right now, I’ll do my best, put this drama in this box on this shelf until (lunch, end of day, other timeline)” “I am resilient – I will get through this (tears running down face as I walked around the building, clearing my head)”

      1. Blocking Things Out*

        Thank you for the kind reply, it’s very much appreciated (especially as I’m struggling with the ‘be kind to yourself’ bit right now). Going to try the compartmentalising/resilience messages as well.

  74. ContemporaryIssued*

    The head of a department just quit this Monday (like, quit and left, didn’t even put in his notice – maybe there was some personal reasons since this is very unusual!).

    For reference, our customer facing roles have medium turnover, lots of people leaving but also some great older employees sticking by us – I used to be more customer facing and I don’t blame them, almost nobody in that department got good raises. A new CEO brought in a change of guard, we used to have a lot of people who wore multiple hats, who left so multiple people got hired to take over their varied roles. Everybody has their own domain now. Practically every department head is new to the company (less than a year), apart from our CFO who has been here for 3 years. We’ve grown, and we’ve hired more to keep up with that growth.

    But it also just feels like so many people leaving. I used to joke with a co-worker this was the most goodbye cupcakes and treats either of us have ever had at a job. Every time a treat was in the break room we’d be asking around who’s leaving, only to find out somebody just brought in leftover banana bread from their home to be nice.

    I’m wondering what’s normal turnover, what’s high but understandable turnover (like low-paid, emotionally taxing roles like customer service that people really want to move out of) and what’s leaving sinking ship turnover? What does this all sound to you guys?

    1. Penguin*

      I can’t speak to customer service norms, but it might help you to pay attention to a) how long the people leaving have been there, and b) how long this period of turnover being common has existed or continues to exist. If it’s a bunch of people who’ve been employees for several years deciding to move on at coincidentally the same time and everything calms down again in a bit, that’s probably nothing to worry about. On the other hand, if new people are coming in and then promptly leaving 3 months later and this “revolving door” started six months ago and shows no sign of stopping (as in there are positions that management cannot keep filled), that might be cause for concern.

      1. ContemporaryIssued*

        Good points. Nobody has left a role after a very short while; everybody hired in the past 10 months is still here, and looks to continue being here. There’s been a lot of radical change but we also have veterans who have been here 20 years, 15 years (the company has existed for 30 years). Things will hopefully calm down from here now the CEO has his “team” in place.

    2. Not One of the Bronte Sisters*

      In my experience, this is not uncommon when a new CEO comes in. It’s especially true when, as you’ve described, the CEO has brought about a great deal of re-structuring. Just keep your eyes and ears open and focus on whether you still like working there.

      1. ContemporaryIssued*

        The CEO is probably the reason, he’s pretty driven to see us go to many places. We just had a re-org and I’m waiting for things to calm down a bit.

        I’ll keep my eyes & ears open. One of the most recent leavers was a secretary who did a job similar to mine so I inherited some of her tasks. She told me to advocate for myself, and that raises don’t come easy at this company.

  75. user679*

    I started a new job several months ago.

    I received plenty of tasks and projects from day 1. It was more than I was accustomed to, although actually I come from another industry, one famous for being much more fast-paced.

    The goals my boss gave me were very ambitious and I was given deadlines. I tried to push back on one or two deadlines because they were simply unrealistic, but my boss reacted badly, so I didn’t do that anymore.

    So I did my best. I started to reorganise some processes in my team, which I found ineffective, so that we can devote more time to our tasks, without wasting time. (I always asked my team for feedback before I did so of course and included their feedback).

    I also needed to pressure our contractors. The way the company works with contractors is a bit strange. The pay contractors get doesn’t depend on whether they meet deadlines or deliver. It’s just a bulk sum of money. So, you imagine, I needed to make a pressure to get stuff done in time.

    I always stayed polite of course. I also always stressed they can always contact me if they encounter problems or want to talk. And I did devote them time when they did. I also coached people a lot and even took over quite a bit of their tasks when I saw they were very busy. But yes, I expected people to let me know if there were blockers and to follow the processes I implemented (with their input and frequently encouraging them to make suggestions how to make processes better). I didn’t expect people to work more than they paid for (actually I told them explicitly they shouldn’t), but I did try to make the best possible use of their time.

    I also worked crazy hours myself – much more than them.

    Now I got feedback from my boss that everybody hates me. I wish I were paraphrasing. I’m not. He said both coworkers and contractors hate me and find me difficult.

    I tried to ask him for examples of problematic behaviour, but his feedback was: People perceive you badly. Little additional details were given – at least no facts, just “the general feeling is” and “the dominant opinion is”. By the way he expressed it he made it clear he sees that as a huge problem and shares this opinion. I tried to bring up facts that contrast with my description as a nasty b*tch without acting defensively which, admittedly, probably only worked to some extent.

    What would you do in my place?

    2. The Man, Becky Lynch*

      They seem insufferable, the kind of people who stew and dwell on how much they don’t like you for changing things, even though they don’t have the spine to just tell you that “we do it it this way and therefore don’t keep rocking the boat or it won’t look good on you”. I’ve seen those places and what I did was leave, I don’t party or work with people who are stuck in their ways so strongly. It’s okay, it’s seriously a culture fit it sounds like, I wouldn’t take it personally [but it’s hard not to do I know].

    4. That Girl From Quinn's House*

      Leave.

      And I’ve worked in a lot of places where interpersonal feedback was necessary, and where backbiting and petty disputes were SO common, so I’ve learned to tell the difference.

      Someone who is giving you feedback because they care about your job performance will be specific, ex: “The customers really like it when you greet them and ask how their day is. This helps you build a relationship with the regulars, so they trust you when there’s a problem.” Whereas a boss who doesn’t like you or who is ineffective will say, “The customers hate you, they think you’re rude and unfriendly.”

    5. InternWrangler*

      Wow. I’m so sorry you had this experience. It sounds really unfair. And I know that you are probably feeling really stuck–new job, so hard to start looking right away. Boss that doesn’t have your back.
      It sounds like you might have brought a really different approach than they have been used to. I can imagine that you might have felt like a tornado, trying to change things so quickly. I completely understand that you were improving things and meeting the goals set for you. And that you worked harder than anyone else to accomplish them. I can imagine that it might not have felt good to have you take over tasks when you saw someone was busy. I think a lot of this might have been a culture shock to them.
      I think you could go back to him and tell him that you’ve had a chance to reflect on your feedback, and that you know how concerning it must be for him to hear it. You could acknowledge that you worked very hard on deadlines, and because of that, you may have been different as a supervisor than what they had experienced. And you could tell him that you take the feedback very seriously and you are committed to building a strong team environment. Then see if he might have any suggestions about how the team was treated in the past and still accomplished its deadlines.

      1. user679*

        I asked them for suggestions and provided some mine.

        My reply was:

        – I’m aware that I pressured both colleagues and contractors to deliver efficiently. From now on I will lessen it up significantly. (My boss’ reply to that was: You can’t do that; if you do that they won’t deliver results. You need to pressure them but in a better way, so that they don’t hate you)

        – I agree that I was very active so far and provided a lot of contributions, which may have felt threatening to others, especially given I’m so new here. From now on I will be more modest. (Their reply: No, I want you to contribute).

        – I agree that I micromanaged my team – trying to solve all the sudden issues we were experiencing and given that we receive so many requests that need to be solved asap. From now on I will limit myself to explaining them the task, stressing my doors are always open and discussing their tasks with them twice a week (our weekly meeting and 1:1). (Their reply to that was: you can’t do that; they won’t manage the workload if you do that).

        1. Luna*

          So, they want you to act like a nasty B, while not acting like a nasty B.
          Yeah, way too contradictory instructions, and refusal to let you change anything.
          Pack your stuff and leave, without turning back. Write it off as a bad apple.

    6. Serin*

      Carolyn Hax just dealt with this in a romantic context in today’s chat, and I’m going to tell you what she told her writer: This guy is gaslighting you.

      First, he’s made it your job to be putting pressure on people, so it’s not surprising if they associate you with pressure — but the pressure is coming from your boss’s goals.

      Second, he’s telling you how other people feel about you, which, first, what are you supposed to do with that? and second, you’re not getting it directly from them, only from him.

      I’d take “The general opinion is that you’re not very nice” and translate it to “It would make it easier to control you if you felt like everybody thought you weren’t very nice.” And I’d ramp up my job search.

    7. Gumby*

      If the deadlines are unrealistic, they are unrealistic. Just because the boss doesn’t like being told that does not make it untrue. If you haven’t already tried it, perhaps a re-wording of “that deadline isn’t workable” might help? Something like “that is too much given our time and resources. We could deliver the fancy bells and whistles version 2 months later (increase time) or we could deliver a workable but bland version on the existing schedule (reduce scope). Or we could fill the gap by contracting out some of the work or buying instead of making the parts (increasing resources).” More “how do we solve this conundrum” instead of “your goals are completely divorced from reality.”

      I would also discount what the boss says about what “people” are saying. That isn’t management – that’s gossip – and possibly completely made up gossip. Especially as he can’t give concrete examples. If he has actionable instructions for what he prefers to see from you, he can give that. As long as he’s going to be vague, eh, do a quick review of your actions – if you are happy with them, go on being you. Maybe do one or two surface-y things to point to if he wants to see you working on the “problem.” Bring in cookies or something. But I wouldn’t angst about it as long as his only instructions are “make people like you” – because that is not, in this case, a reasonable or actionable requirement given the information you have.

    8. CM*

      The amazing thing about saying “everyone hates you” is that the person you say it to will start to make up their own reasons for why everybody hates them and whatever they come up with will feel more sharp and personal than whatever you might have said. I know it’s easier said than done, but I think the healthiest thing is to decide that, unless he can explain why everybody hates you, that statement is inconsequential information that you should just dismiss from your mind.

      If it comes up again, I also think it’s fine to say, “I’m not sure what you want me to do with that information.” Or, “Unless you can tell me what I’m doing to provoke that reaction in you (leave it focused on him, not “everybody”), there isn’t a lot I can do to change it.” Or, “Is there something specific you’d like me to do differently?” Don’t get pulled into a loop of explaining why people shouldn’t hate you — redirect the focus to a specific request for something he wants you to do (which you may or may not decide to comply with).

      There’s a possibility that that will eventually turn this into a productive conversation about whatever it is he doesn’t like, but there’s also a possibility it will reveal him to be someone you CAN’T have a productive conversation with, in which case, the only thing you can do is leave.

  76. SadMidwesterner*

    Update! After six months of searching I got a job, and it’s basically a best case scenario! I’m so happy to get out of this bad environment.

    Less good news: This morning I got a massive bloody nose on the train and stained my shirt, so I am now sitting at my desk in an XL shirt with our orgs logo as my sweater dries next to me on my desk.

    2. Quandong*

      Many congratulations on the new job!

      I hope your day improves quickly and your clothes dry fast.

  77. Katie N.*

    I’m currently in my first full-time office job (previously I’ve done part-time work, teaching, work study in college, all very different from this side of the professional world). Unfortunately our grant from the state got cancelled without cause, and I’m now looking for a new position. Four of us are losing our jobs because of this come May 11th, and everyone at this small nonprofit organization has been very supportive and outraged on our behalf. I have a couple questions, because this is totally foreign territory for me!

    1) What are the expectations for leaving a job under this sort of circumstance? Do I have to write a letter of resignation? Will an exit interview likely be part of the process? How should I handle stuff like asking about the amount of the last paycheck and paying out PTO?

    2) What do I say when an application or interviewer asks why I’m leaving this position after 11 months? I feel like saying our grant got cancelled looks bad, but I don’t know how else to put it.

    Thanks in advance!

    1. seasonal allegories*

      2) What do I say when an application or interviewer asks why I’m leaving this position after 11 months? I feel like saying our grant got cancelled looks bad, but I don’t know how else to put it.

      Nope, you can say that! “It was a grant-funded position and the grant wasn’t renewed” is totally a normal thing to say in that situation.

      1. ArtsNerd*

        Yup! This happens quite a bit actually.

        No need for a letter of resignation — you’re being let go, not resigning. Exit interviews are company dependent, and paycheck questions are absolutely normal and not emotionally fraught for the people who manage them!

        I’m sorry you’re going through this, but at least you can rest assured that no one will raise an eyebrow at this or you because of it. It’s absolutely benign.

      2. Bismuth*

        Yep. If you’re worried about looking like a job-hopper, I’d put that right on my resume.

  78. Millie Mayhem*

    I have two job interviews next week that I am feeling very excited and nervous about! I have actually never interviewed for multiple companies at one time so this will be new to me. I have a few of questions…

    1) I have a couple of vacations lined up for this year. I know you typically wait to bring these up until after you receive a job offer. How soon do I mention it and how to I tactfully bring it up?
    2) In previous jobs, I worked in industries where time off around the holidays was limited. I think at the most I have been able to take 2 days off during Christmas, for example. I would really like to work for a company where it’s OK to take more time off, especially since I now live in a different city and would have to travel to see family. Is it appropriate to ask about the culture/practices regarding the holidays during the interview process?
    2) What do I do if I receive one offer and am waiting to hear back from the other company? Is it OK to say “Thank you so much for the generous offer. I would like to speak about this with my husband/family, is it alright if I get back to you about this in a day or two?”

    Thanks in advance if anyone responds to my questions!

    1. Passionfruit*

      1- I would wait until you have an offer. I have done this a few times. Most places are fine with this, unless they have policies prohibiting it. One thing you can do is ask how vacation works during the interview to get a feel for any policies they may have.
      2-Absolutely. I have asked this several times. “How does scheduling time off around the holidays work in your department/office?” Sometimes departments can vary too. I worked somewhere that people had to take turns taking vacation around holidays for office coverage.
      3- Def ok.

      1. Clisby*

        Agree.

        About #2 – just to be sure, do you mean holiday time? Vacation time around the holidays? Either or both? Every place I’ve worked, those are different. When I worked for newspapers, somebody always had to work on holidays because otherwise, how does that newspaper magically appear on people’s doorsteps 7 days a week? So there was a rotation. When I worked in computer programming, none of us had to work on holidays – but if we wanted vacation time off around the holidays to visit family, that would depend on who else had requested it, who’d be around to cover the work, etc. I never worked anywhere that said “Christmas Eve and Christmas are holidays and anyone who wants to take extra vacation around then can have it.” Not saying there’s no place that does that, but I’ve never experienced it.

    2. Kathenus*

      Here are some thoughts:
      1) Wait until you have a job offer, and then say something like ‘I’m very interested in accepting the offer. I wanted to let you know that I have pre-planned vacations on X and X dates, I understand that I may need to take this time unpaid. Do you see any conflicts?’
      2) If it’s me, I decide if it’s a dealbreaker or not. If it is, ask during the offer stage. If it’s not a dealbreaker, I’d wait until I start and then ask about holiday time off policies, which might include both whether or not there needs to be coverage and if there are seniority issues with holiday time off.
      3) Yes on your general response to employer 1, except I’d exclude the word ‘generous’ – since you don’t want to lose leverage if you want to counteroffer at all. Then you need to decide, if you have offers from both, which would you take? If you would take employer 1 just accept the offer. If you would take employer 2, contact them and say that you have an offer at another organization, but that they are your first choice, and ask if there’s any way to move up the decision timetable. If you aren’t sure which you’d take for whatever reason, contact employer 2 and let them know that you have another offer and ask what their timetable is and if there’s any flexibility with moving it up (removing the part about them being your first choice).

      Best of luck!

  79. AliV*

    I’d love others input on a recurring pattern I’ve had at several workplaces.

    Of course, at each job I have to work with individuals in other departments. People who work on other teams, parts of different lines of command. After working with these folks over time, I begin to see patterns in their behavior and can identify those who I can almost always count on to do their jobs, and…those I can’t count on.

    If I didn’t need something out of these individuals I wouldn’t be reaching out to them. And so, for the folks I can’t count on, I know that I basically have to set up my own system of reminders so that I can remind them to do what I need to have done. At my current job there’s the person I know will forget 100% of what I ask of her, so I have to nudge her every few days. There’s the one who can’t accurately route paperwork to the right person, so I have to review everything that comes to me and reroute it to the right person. Etc.

    I’m tired of doing my own job and small parts of the jobs of a bunch of other people, but…that’s just the way it is, right? Has anybody found anything that works?

    1. fposte*

      I think that’s just how it works, yes. People are good at different stuff, and the higher you go, the more you account for those weaknesses in your workflow.

      1. AliV*

        To be clear, I’m not getting any higher up the food chain. Just an individual contributor, doing the work of other individual contributors. :)

  80. Jamie G*

    I’m trying to break into the professional world, and I have no idea how to do it! I have a college degree, but only ever worked retail, and even that ended a few years ago when I had to quit to take care of my kid. I’m afraid that if I go back to retail at this point, I’m acknowledging that I’ll never get out, but I’ve been putting in applications for months now at a ton of different places, and the only interview I got turned out to be a mess (they made me sign a waiver about Scientology before the ‘interview’, which turned out to be a group informational session followed by a pop quiz).

    I’m smart, I’m nice, I’m a fast learner, and I know that I could do most of the jobs I’ve been applying for, but obviously most companies don’t want to take a chance on someone whose resume looks less than impressive. Does anyone have any tips for getting my foot in the door, so to speak? Networking isn’t really an option; most of the people I know in the area either are working retail (because that’s where I met them) or have a security clearance (I’m in the DC-ish area).

      1. Jamie G*

        I have never worked in an office before, but I am proficient with the standard MS Office suite (or at least outdated versions of them when I was in school lol) and was in charge of the phones at my retail job (8 lines all ringing two days before Christmas was always a fun time).
        I’m not opposed to temping, but the main issue is we’d need to buy a second car if I actually got a job, and we can’t really afford it if I’m not working. So I’d be afraid that nothing would come of it and then I’d be in an even worse financial position.

        1. fposte*

          I would dig deeper into how temping would work for you in your area, because I think that’s your biggest pathway here out of retail from what you describe. Temping isn’t necessarily temp to perm, so you don’t have to get a permanent job for something to come of it–it’s about getting skills and creating a track record while earning some money. If you’re likely to be reasonably in demand with a temp agency, that could cover the cost of a car on its own.

          1. Jamie G*

            I’m not sure if I’d be in demand at all; could you give me some insight there? Like I said, I have lots of customer service and phone experience, but none of it in an actual office setting, which I’m pretty sure is holding me back from a permanent position.
            I’m looking into temp agencies now, thanks to the suggestions, and there are a few in my area. If it’s something I can make work from a financial perspective, it does seem like it would be a good solution for me.

            1. fposte*

              I’m afraid I don’t have enough knowledge of the market or your skills to make any guesses, but there are certainly times and places where reliability, an ability to get along with people, and basic office skills are enough to keep you solidly in temp employment.

        2. L. S. Cooper*

          I put myself as available for recruiting on LinkedIn, and also put my name out for temp work. I get an email about once a week from someone looking for an office customer service representative. I lucked out and got a contractor position in the corporate office of a shoe brand, supporting retail stores but not customer-facing. I’m still not sure if the contract management company found me from the temp agency or from LinkedIn, but it’s worked out nicely so far.

          1. Jamie G*

            By ‘put your name out for temp work’, do you mean you sent in your information to temp agencies? Or something else?

            I’ve put my resume up on LinkedIn and all the other sites, but that’s backfiring pretty heavily; I’ve finally stopped getting calls for sketchy insurance sales positions and door-to-door marketing that lies about the position.

            I think you guys have convinced me to look into temping though, as long as this last interview I had doesn’t pull through.

            1. irene adler*

              RE: temp agencies
              Might get your resume into their system so that when they do searches you’ll at least be in their system. Sign up for the account at each temp agency.

        3. MaureenC*

          Depending on the retail job and the temp agencies, you might be able to have a retail job while also doing temp work. I’d put applications in at both temp places and retail jobs, and for the temp places ask what kind of notice you’d be getting for possible assignments. For the retail places ask if you can move to strictly evening and weekend hours when you get temp positions. Retail is pretty high turnover anyway, and many retail workers are part-timers doing it as a side gig. (I’d ask your friends in retail what their companies offer in terms of flexibility.)

          Also, try to get a used car and pay it off quickly, so that if you find that your retail job is interfering with getting temp assignments you can quit retail sooner.

          Source: I juggled part-time retail and contract work for over a year until I decided that it no longer made financial (and psychological) sense to keep the retail job.

          1. Jamie G*

            I did have one interview in at a retail place (the only retail place I applied to, so my response rate there is good at least) that I’m waiting to hear back from. It’s in a kind of retail that’s more appealing to me than my previous big box experience, so I’d be willing to hold on to that for a while to get my resume active again (that 3 year unemployment gap is killing me). I don’t think I can switch back to night/weekend work full-time; I ended up quitting partially because I just couldn’t deal with never seeing my husband (in addition to the mental/physical stress of childcare during the day, run out the door as soon as husband got home, come back at midnight+ and try to get some sleep). I’m fortunate enough to be in a position where I can afford to wait a little while; our budget is leaking money every month because daycare is super expensive, but we have the savings to support that for a pretty long time before it gets desperate.

            I will definitely be getting a used car, but I’m looking forward to it being reliable; my last couple of cars have been pretty sketchy (my most recent one used to literally just turn off the engine while driving, which was great; I eventually sold it for scrap because it was a death trap that nobody could fix).

        4. Memyselfandi*

          Agree with fposte about temping. It is how I learned about office work and culture after being in a teaching role for many years. You will be pleased to know that most of your skills and knowledge are transferable.

        5. Gumby*

          Watch a few videos of Lynda courses (or similar) to re-familiarize yourself with Office apps. Play around with Google apps too. Temp agencies will sometimes have you do tests and the more familiar/less out-of-date your knowledge is the better.

          I watched a few videos on some software I had used in school – but that was a good 10 years earlier – right before interviewing for my current job. It made it so I breezed through the quick screening task they asked me to complete with the software and could use all of the current terminology which hid, a little, that I was not used to the most recent version of the software (though I was careful not to overstate my familiarity).

    2. Passionfruit*

      I’d try for some customer service roles in an office setting. Some smaller local companies may have openings. Also, even at larger companies, like where you call in for service. Like a bank, amazon, retail customer support centers. This is great experience to get, and is how I started in my early career.

    3. Llama Llama Diorama*

      I’m in the DC-ish area, and we have a ton of contractors that generally fill executive assistant, writing, and office management type roles. I could see anyone who’s smart, nice, and with good customer service fitting in to any of those roles. It’s not quite a temp job, but not as hard to get into as security clearance.

      1. Jamie G*

        Can you give me a little more detail as to how that works/how to get into that sort of thing?

        1. Llama Llama Diorama*

          It’s much more similar to the regular job market (vs the federal system around here)– if you’re into the idea of being an executive assistant, jobs will be titled that or be looking for support, communication skills, strong writing, and coordination. If you look on Indeed or LinkedIn, you’ll find a bunch. Having a degree will probably help, and you can frame your customer service as being a good translation into a support role.

          Of course, then it’s a matter of if you want to stay as an EA or not. A lot of people really like doing it, but some people I’ve seen use it to transition to something more specialized.

      2. Kat in VA*

        Side note and not to be a downer, but I’m an EA in the DC area and a whoooole lot of jobs require at least a Secret clearance – which I don’t have. However, a lot of that depends on salary – if you’re ok with 40k to 50k, there should be a lot more jobs not requiring Secret or Top Secret than 70k to 100k jobs in the EA arena

    4. irene adler*

      Might look into joining a professional organization that has regular meetings that are local to you.
      These organizations would be industry specific; so you’ll need to do research to find what will work best for you.

      Professional organizations offer networking opportunities with folks working in the industry you wish to work in, job leads, resume suggestions, opportunities for mentoring, opportunities for acquiring additional job skills, career/job advice.

      I’m not sure what you are looking for in the professional world. But if you google ‘admin assistant’ or ‘executive assistant’, you can find several professional organizations pertaining to these. Try other job titles that are of interest to you. Then you might email a few of these organizations and ask for some guidance on what organization(s) would best fit your needs.

    5. The Man, Becky Lynch*

      I’m going to be real with you and this is hard because I hate this raw reality issue but you’re in an uphill battle having no office experience and only retail background.

      As a person who hires for customer service roles for small businesses frequently enough, we don’t even approach anyone with strictly retail backgrounds for various reasons, I’ve been burned trying before and I’m not in a position to mentor anyone at this stage sadly. Not only the issue about you not knowing office norms, the little things that add up, how to use the copy machine, fax machine [if they exist, they always exist in my life even in 2019] but just the adaption to a general 9-5 schedule has been an issue.

      That aside, the way to break that barrier and get experience to bank on is to go through a temp agency that won’t bother with the details. To work with a temp agency you need to be persistent and exercise what is known as “gumption” in most cases but it’s just straight up working with a temp agency in these cases. Follow up constantly asking for if they have job placements with you in mind. The squeaky wheel gets the grease in that case and they have a regular rotation to work with, getting in isn’t too difficult usually but it does take some real push on your side. They’re not a standard employer, they’re a hybrid of employer and service that you’re subscribing to in a way.

      You’re smart, you’re nice and you’re a fast learner but it’s hard to take a chance on someone. Everyone says that and those of us who hire for those roles have been burnt to a crisp over the years with trying to give people a shot.

      I did it, I gave someone with a strictly retail background a shot. They did website design on the side, so I thought that they were probably pretty computer savvy and I just needed someone to do pretty extensive data entry and do customer assistance work. It was an absolute nightmare, I hear they’re still fixing the errors almost two years later.

      You say you’re proficient in Office Suite but how do you know that? How have you used it in a professional setting? I’ve known people who can pull up a word doc and start typing but can you format it? Can you do general functions in Excel? I had someone who was “Great!” with computers and know all the computer stuff! No they didn’t. I tried to show them how to do the sum formula so they didn’t transpose between using a calculator and inputting it into a form we used for shipments. Nope, it wasn’t ever going to happen, she clung to that desk calculator with all her might. That after telling us she’s a pro at computers and the programs that are being used.

      So you have to cut your teeth by getting yourself wet in the shallow end, which is usually temp work or if you’re lucky it’s by knowing someone who can get you in front of someone who has the desire to give you that first shot.

      It’s hard. I’ve heard so many times over the years that people want to break into office work with this idea that we all sit at our desks doing super easy things and get paid big bucks for it. Then you find yourself sitting with a pile of data entry, with a cruddy glitchy kind of software that you have to learn and isn’t anything you think it is.

      Have you tried working in a retail back office even? If you can do administrative work for a small retail establishment, that may be a foot in the door that you’re looking for as well.

  81. merp*

    Just did a phone interview, which turned out to be kind of a phone interview/phone screen hybrid? I’m not sure, they only had 3 questions and said I would have time to ask my questions if I made it to the next interview. Kind of odd, but I’m mostly just excited to be hearing back from someone! And the job sounds cool, too! Good vibes to anyone else out there in it with interviews.

    2. Hamburke*

      I kind of shrug at any interview that is one-sided – even a short phone screen.

      Good luck!

  82. Anonymous for this*

    How much does it hurt one’s job search, particularly a not-local job search, if your Linkedin doesn’t have your current job on it?

    Long story short, I recently cut a family member out of my life, and this person has a history of making others look up on the Internet where someone works (this person does not have a computer or Internet access themselves) so that they can go there and harass them in public at their place of work. (They have asked me to do this on other people, so it doesn’t seem like much of a stretch to think that sooner or later they’re going to ask someone to look up where I work.)

    For that reason, I removed my current job from my Linkedin. I know this seems ridiculous but I really do not want a scene complete with screaming and tears (theirs, not mine) at my office. It’s a small office where others are up in your business and I don’t want the drama of having to explain what’s going on.

    I’m now considering a cross country move and I want to start looking for jobs. I can’t move without a job lined up, but I REALLY do not want to add this job to my Linkedin and thus become find-able. Is this going to be a total dealbreaker?

    1. Middle Manager*

      Could you possibly list your current role, but not name the company? I know it wouldn’t totally fix it, but might be better than looking like you’re unemployed currently.

      I’m sorry! That sounds like a bad situation.

    2. it happens*

      It’s a little weird, but workable. You can mask your employer on LinkedIn, like, specialty retailer in the metro-city area, or some such thing that describes your employer without giving the name and exact location. Keep a good descriptive job title and your accomplishments. Presumably you have no issue putting the employer on your resume, which is likely to the first thing potential employers will see. Sorry about the family issues and good luck relocating.

    3. Another Anon LinkedIn Member*

      Not really, can you just hide your LinkedIn profile? Not everyone is on social media!

    4. MayLou*

      I can’t imagine that it would be the dealbreaker in an otherwise successful job application for you not to include your current job on LinkedIn, and if it was, that’s useful information to know about your prospective employer: they’re petty about weird, irrelevant details.

  83. Public Facing Librarian*

    Thank you AAM. Still facing the public. Still doing my job. Thank you for all of your helpful suggestions. I just had my annual review and was “exceeds expectations plus in all areas of my position” and recommended for promotion.

    On the people front. There is a phrase I heard yesterday, “hecklers’ veto” It helped me understand that I am to do my job to the best of my abilities. Provide a platform for all points-of- view. And I do. If that is not enough, so be it. The hecklers do not dictate my work or public service.

  84. Bibliovore*

    Procrastination Thread.

    I finally completed February’s statistics and my March expense report. Whoo hoo!
    What do you have hanging over your head? Go do it and come back to celebrate.

      1. CastIrony*

        Right?! I won’t be able to celebrate myself. Let’s pre-celebrate together!

        I still haven’t done my taxes, but my best friend and I will do them over the weekend together.

    2. CareerCat*

      I just finished an expense report for one of my execs that I should have submitted at least two weeks ago. Expense reports are the bane of my existence; otherwise I really enjoy my role as an executive assistant.

      Now I start the new week feeling all caught up and stuff! I deserve a glass of wine…

  85. Coffeelover*

    To be honest, I don’t really understand why you’re not sharing the baby sitter that’s coming (if she’s willing – which I know I would be if more money were involved). I get your kid wants the babysitter for themselves but – there must be a cultural nuance I’m not getting because I would say – tough cookies. In my opinion helping her out trumps your kid having the most optimal fun on this trip. Especially if this is someone who you want to nurture a good relationship with. Not that you couldn’t do that otherwise, but favours like this do a lot for relationship building. Might even teach your kid a good lesson in the processes on altruism.

    1. Paige*

      It would be hard for the sitter to say no. And, after handling two hyper children when she’s only been planning for one, easy for her to say sorry, never working for you again when they get home.
      I don’t think this is quite so black-and-white.

    2. Lilysparrow*

      Depending how hyper each kid is, and how well they get along, there may be a valid concern about one sitter being able to adequately care for them both in an unfamiliar environment, particularly since the sitter has no pre-existing relationship with the second kid.

  86. QueryingtheMassesforHelp*

    I think my bad boss got Peter Principle promoted before they got internally hired into this new role as my manager. And thankfully their new higher ups are realizing that they internally hired someone that doesn’t know how to do their job.

    Immediate actions so far have been moving high profile projects that bad boss covered to other people in the division. This has left the boss with only one project, but they are still managing a team that oversees a lot of projects. So hopefully this will make the boss focus on their manager duties rather than being a worker bee. My bad boss reacted to this by moving some of my projects off my plate and bad boss can rebuild their plate. Which concerns me because this will leave me with little to do and I don’t want to be pulled from these projects. Also in previous conversations with the bad boss and the grand boss I’m doing a good job with them. I’m reaching out to the masses to see if it’s worth pushing back on my bad boss to keep my projects or just let them take my projects away and see it blow up in their faces.

    I’m also looking for another job right now. Thanks!

    2. ThinMint*

      Has your boss given any instruction on what she wants you to do instead since she took the projects?

      1. QueryingtheMassesforHelp*

        No, he hasn’t. He’s not really good with laying out expectations or directing people. He basically said I’m going to cover these projects now and nothing else.

  87. JustaTech*

    Update on last week’s work puppy shower:
    Even though I was really tired of the doggie talk, I donated, and my group raised enough money for the rescue to cover a dog’s shots and spay/neuter. My coworker was so very surprised and thankful. The dog has now arrived (my coworker is taking the day off to bond) and I know it will be a huge improvement because the dog can’t text selfies all day!

    So, all’s well that ends well, and sometimes it’s worth humoring your coworkers.

  88. Adminx2*

    This is a chip I have inspired by the “older interviewers” question today. It irks me when people older than me who know full well they could never get their same job TODAY due the raised expectations/education seem to have no empathy about the job market, needs to negotiate and “extra” issues. Hmph. That’s all.

    1. NACSACJACK*

      that’s what scares me. i’ve worked hard the last 25 years and it all seems for nothing.

  89. Nervous*

    Hi all! I have a conundrum and I’m hoping you can help.

    I work with a great group of people, and management has done a lot for me. (Purposefully being vague since people here read this blog.) They’ve OKed me going to a week-long academic conference for school because it’s related to my job, and are covering part of it in addition to paying me/not making me take PTO. I’m a very junior employee (entry level) and we don’t have much money so this is a Big Deal. I’m delighted by this.

    That said, two jobs at my dream company have recently opened and I’ve applied for them. Knowing the speed at which this company hires, I will probably be hearing from them in late May if I’m a good candidate…coincidentally when the conference is.

    So what I’m wondering – is it ethical for me to go to this conference, while actively pursuing another job, knowing that my boss spent some capital to convince our director to let me go, or should I bow out?

    1. Kathenus*

      Yes, it’s ethical for you to go. If you knew 100% you were leaving (meaning you had a solid life plan that involved you giving notice right after the conference, no matter what), then I’d say it might be an issue. This happens in business, just like people giving notice at inconvenient times. It’s a part of business. You don’t know whether or not you’ll get one of these jobs, so giving up this conference for a hypothetical could hurt your professional development, especially if you stay at your current job. You can certainly thank your boss for the support getting you to this conference, now and/or if you end up leaving, but you shouldn’t feel guilty for going.

  90. C*

    aam readers – what are your thoughts on hanging out with coworkers of the opposite sex outside of work?

    context – have been working at current company for about three years. Team is close but does not interact much outside of work. One of my co-workers was talking about some DIY he was doing and I offered to help out, as I quite like helping with DIY and I thought why not? It would be a nice thing to do. And my therapist is always telling me to get out more. I went round to their house a couple of times, helped out, had dinner together and then went home. Coworker has now finished their DIY and as a little celebration proposed a wine evening – a movie, glass of wine, something to eat. I accepted. But I’m wondering is this normal? Coworker is happily married and I don’t feel any wierd vibes off them. But this is the first time we are really spending time together on the three years we have been working together. I’m also not sure about the social norms. I’m very shy and reclusive so I do not know what is normal- is it wrong to spend time alone with a married coworker of opposite sex outside of work? Am I risking anything here work wise? Particularly in reputation?

    1. Kathenus*

      It is absolutely not wrong. Friends can be either gender, or somewhere else on the LGBTQ+ spectrum. You can’t control if other people view it differently, but if you just treat this like any other friendship, don’t worry about them. Some people will be judgmental just to be judgmental, so live your life, have your friends, and enjoy their company.

    2. MaureenC*

      The DIY seems fine, especially if their spouse was there. The wine evening sounds like a date, IMO. Like, grabbing a drink after work one-on-one might be okay (at the Bennigan’s around the corner that people from other nearby offices have happy hours at, not at Fancy Wine Bar), but wine + movie – other people = DATE.

      1. MaureenC*

        That being said, if the spouse is on board, it’s all fine. If you become good friends maybe have Spouse join in sometimes.

        1. Elizabeth West*

          I think I’d be uncomfortable with the date-y vibe of the wine/movie evening unless Spouse were joining. That’s me, though.

      2. Fortitude Jones*

        That’s exactly where my mind went. The wine date is inappropriate, but hanging out with the coworker outside of work isn’t.

    3. The Man, Becky Lynch*

      My partner is friends with his women coworkers and has often hungout with them, either playing video games or watching shows they both like. It’s never bothered me, I know he’s not interested in them romantically and I’m secure knowing that things really don’t “just happen”.

      I have close friends who are the opposite gender and have wives/girlfriends. There’s nothing going on, I have a fulfilling relationship and they have theirs, we’re just hanging out. Just like when I’m just hanging out with my girlfriends watching the same movies, drinking the same beers, etc.

    4. Alex*

      It’s totally OK to be friends with coworkers outside of work, regardless of sex.

      If it starts to feel date-like, then no, that is not OK, but that’s not because he’s a coworker, it’s because he’s married. (I mean unless his wife is OK with that kind of arrangement, but most aren’t).

    5. Lilysparrow*

      Perfectly fine in principle, but if neither the wife nor any other co-workers were there for dinner, movie & wine I’d be uncomfortable with that, personally.

      If it were just ordering pizza/takeout after the DIY, that’s different. But the way you described it sounded off to me.

      1. ..Kat..*

        Ask what day/time works for him and his wife – if this is just him, it is a bit weird (and very much a date).

    6. C*

      Thank you for the responses. Sounds like friends is fine (phew) but wine evening is a bit of a grey area, can be considered date like, and should maybe be avoided when I do not really know his spouse and hence can’t gauge what she thinks. I’ll consider asking if maybe another coworker should be there or maybe suggest a less date like/ another activity.

      1. Lilysparrow*

        And you know what? There’s no International Standards Committee on what you *have* to be comfortable with, just because other people think it’s fine, normal, whatever.

        You didn’t feel the need to consult anyone about the DIY session, it sounds like. So if an invitation like the wine evening makes you feel awkward or uncertain, that’s reason enough to turn it down. It doesn’t reflect badly on you or on your co-worker.

        It sounds like your gut is working fine for you, just listen to it.

  91. What the What*

    I am so annoyed right now! Our Office Manager just put out an email saying, Hey we’re looking for people for these positions, if you know anyone, let me know. They’re all admin roles, he’s only emailing the admin to ask, and all I can think is, I have a VAST group of admin peers and colleagues in the city and I’d never ever never recommend these roles to them. I love my job, and I enjoy working with the group I work with; my career has been awesome and I’ve gone a long way with this company. BUT, I’m not gonna suggest any one of my peers or friends or contacts apply to these jobs because these jobs are a FREAKING REVOLVING DOOR. They’re all entry-level, which we don’t pay well for (I’m an anomaly in that my boss has gone to bat to get me good raises each year – I did really well even when others did not, and it was a function of politics and uninterested supervisors). It utterly grinds my gears that they keep hiring people and then firing people and needing new people – and they expect I’m going to expend capital with my peers or spend time helping them find folks to fill the roles. It takes over a year to learn this stuff – it’s cyclical, and the first time you see it, it’s a TOUGH learning curve. And yet they walk someone out at 3 months for not being All That…

    What’s gonna happen when the older admin start retiring, and we have NO succession plan in place because we can’t keep people around long enough to let them learn? The one time I DID suggest a contact for a role, the OM liked her and the guy she’d be working with turned her down because he “didn’t like her laugh”?! What the Actual F. Honestly, every time they drop someone at 3 months or shuffle the group around, I want to scream – and it’s not even my department anymore! It amazes me they haven’t crashed and burned yet; they’re even pulling budget from other pools to pay for the people they hire, because where one person used to be enough, now they need two or three. But of course they hire two or three, keep the most useless one of the bunch because she threatens to sue over being “mistreated” (looooong story), and get rid of the other two, and then they need to rehire!? ARRGH. It’s so annoying to even watch. It takes every fibre of my being not to reply-all to the OM’s email saying “I’d not encourage a single person I know to work with you, you utter nutjobs.”

    1. ArtsNerd*

      Yikes. The laugh thing is beyond the pale and edging into EEOC complaint.

      If there’s someone you have a good relationship with who would be relevant here, you could say “I have a large network of people who are qualified for this kind of work, but to be blunt they would not accept these positions given the working conditions / salary.” or what have you.

      If there isn’t, then def keep a strategic silence and just quietly roll your eyes to yourself. I’ve definitely declined to share job openings with people for similar reasons.

    2. Not One of the Bronte Sisters*

      I would personally pat you on the back if you reply-alled that way. However, how about, “Everybody I know is already working [at better jobs than those]”?

  92. Tina Belcher's Less Cool Sister*

    I have a second question for the hive mind today. One of my closest work friends (in my division but not my team) is going through a very challenging and scary time with her health. I think I am the only person at work (besides perhaps her boss) who knows what’s going on. It’s heartbreaking – she is a survivor of a life-threatening condition and is now suffering from one or more as-yet-undiagnosed condition(s). She’s used all her sick and vacation time and feels she isn’t working up to her full potential, even though from what I’ve seen, no one in the division has anything but positive things to say about her work. I would be shocked if she was fired, but I obviously don’t have the standing to reassure her that her job is safe. She was literally crying in my office the other day from the stress she’s under, at work, home, and her own body. From the outside she looks young and healthy, so in addition to the misery of her health conditions she is worried others will think she is just lazy or bad at her job, when in reality she’s fighting harder than any of us have ever had to.

    How can I support my colleague and friend who is struggling with an invisible disability?

    1. Havarti*

      It might be easiest to just ask her how you can best support her. It may be she just needs to vent/cry every now and then. Maybe she would like you to distract her and talk about other things like puppies or whatever. Maybe she needs to go talk to her boss and the boss can discretely have it be known that she’s dealing with some health stuff if those people are being impacted by her absences – if she’s that worried they’ll resent her.

      That being said, you need to take care of yourself as well. If she’s crying in your office for like hours at a time or you start to feel burned out by things, it’s ok for you to draw boundaries.

    2. Kathenus*

      Can she qualify for FMLA to give her some breathing room and reduce the stress of worrying about getting time off? Is there and EAP available where she might talk to someone? You said her boss knows, is her boss supportive and could she have an open conversation with her to ease her mind that she’s not in jeopardy of losing her job? Those are my ideas as far as protecting her job, and from the other standpoint, just keep being there for her. See if you can find out what might ease her burden – picking up her groceries when you get yours, helping with pet care, sending over a meal or two. You sound like a good friend.

      1. Tina Belcher's Less Cool Sister*

        Unfortunately she still has a few months until she qualifies for FMLA, but we have a very rigid process for removing employees after their 6 month probation (which she passed) so I don’t think her job is in jeopardy. I don’t know exactly how much her boss knows, but my friend is able to take the time she needs for medical appointments/tests and to stay home on days she isn’t able to get out of bed. I honestly think much of the stress is coming from her internal pressure to be amazing at work (which she is), and feeling like she isn’t currently living up to her potential. She’s an extremely motivated, Type A, always running at 110% capacity kind of person so working at a B+ level right now, which to anyone else would be good, feels like failure to her.

        Good suggestion about the EAP – I know she is receiving mental health care and will be starting a new form of therapy soon. I’ve offered to watch her dog or do anything else she might need, and I really like your other suggestions about ways to make her life easier. Unfortunately her partner is already burned out from caregiving a disabled family member (which is a whole other issue I’m not quite close enough with her to offer advice on). I just saw her after I wrote my initial post and she’s doing much better today, but I’ll continue being there for her!

        1. MayLou*

          Adjusting to having a long-term condition which affects your ability to function after being a 110% capacity person is so hard! All you can do is keep reminding her that her worth is not solely or even predominantly based on her productivity, and that people love her and support her regardless of how well she feels she is doing in her job. My wife struggles with this too and it’s so hard not to be able to fix it for her, but she appreciates the reminders that I’ll love her even if she gets fired for being an inconvenient sick and disabled person. (I’ll also set fire to things and break faces over how illegal and discriminatory that is, if necessary, but she doesn’t find that as reassuring for some reason…)

    3. CastIrony*

      Does your job let workers “donate” PTO (annual and sick) time to those who really, really need it? It’d be worth looking into, and it’d help your friend a lot.

      I hope your friend’s life improves, and I’m so sorry.

  93. manuka honey*

    Occasionally, I needed a department to do task X for me to continue with my projects. However, that department is always swamped and routinely a month or two behind schedule. I got tired of waiting for them so I learned how to do that task so it wouldn’t interfere with my projects.

    The manager of that department and my manager had a discussion and now I’m responsible for doing every task X. I’m upset about this because it really has nothing to do with my job/department and I feel like I’m being punished for taking initiative.

    Is this normal and something I should expect in the future? This is my first office job so I’m always learning new things.

    1. Havarti*

      Before you learned to do task X, did you ever go to your boss and say: “Hey, this dept. needs to do task X so I can finish my project but they’re 2 months behind, what should I do?” If no, remember to do this next time. If yes, what did the boss say?

      See, the problem here is that the manager of the other dept. is probably happy their people don’t need to do task X now given they’re always busy/behind schedule. Less work for them. Now it’s your job and if it doesn’t interfere with completing your regular work, your boss probably doesn’t mind either because now your projects get done on time. It’s a win-win for them and a loss for you.

      Is it normal? Sometimes. Sometimes departments are very possessive of their tasks and anybody else doing it is a huge no-no. Being too much of a go-getter can bite you in the rump. It’s usually best to ask your boss first so you don’t wind up saddled with additional work you maybe didn’t need to do.

      As for task X being outside of your job description, it may be worth it to go back to your boss and explain why you learned task X but that it wasn’t originally part of your job. However this is your first office job so pushing too hard on “this isn’t part of my job” will likely make you look too rigid and that’s not a desirable trait in junior staff. But if the job is ok otherwise, you may just need to put up with it until you’ve been there long enough to move into something else or find another job.

      1. manuka honey*

        I did ask my boss to which she said “Hmm, that department is routinely behind. Try to think of a workaround so you don’t have to rely on them to finish your projects.”

        To me, that meant learning task X. :(

        Thank you for your post! I’m not sure what I’ll do in the future if this comes up again.

        1. Havarti*

          So you did the right thing and boss pretty much told you to learn task X so yeah, you’re stuck with it. Sometimes you can’t escape.

        2. valentine*

          You can say to your boss, “I learned X to stay on deadline, but that only works with our projects. Doing X company wide means setting back ABC and 123. In order to preserve our department’s workflow, can I stick to doing X just for us?” (Bonus if you can: give her real numbers, think of anywhere else X can go to, and/or ABC/123 are her priorities.)

    2. Kathenus*

      I don’t know if I’d say it’s normal, but I don’t think it’s unheard of either. It sounds like both managers realize that the other department doesn’t have the capacity, and they see your having learned it as a way to help. That can be a good thing for you – you took initiative, and have helped out the organization. That said, think about how much time X will now take you, be proactive once again in going to your manager and saying that now that X will take up about 4 hours a week (or whatever is accurate), here’s what task(s) you need taken off your plate or deprioritized in order to accommodate the new task. As Alison says, just say it in a matter of fact way like of course you need to have your workload adjusted to accommodate for this.

    3. CM*

      Ooo, interesting. I had my own version of this a few years ago, from the other side. I was managing a department that was literally two years behind, and I fought as hard as I could to get more resources, but nobody understood or cared what we were dealing with. We also kept getting slammed with small assignments that didn’t really require the team’s expertise as much as some of the larger projects did, and eventually I just started teaching people on other teams how to do those things themselves. Some people were happy about that, because it meant they didn’t have to wait anymore, and some people were angry because they felt like it was a loss of status or something.

      I think, if you look at it from the POV of “what’s the best team play?” then helping out the team (the company) by taking on work that no one else has time to do can be a positive thing, even if it’s not your first choice. If there’s a political element to it — if it does feel like a loss of status or if there’s a pattern where somehow only women are getting pushed into picking up the slack on certain kinds of work, etc — maybe question what the politics in your organization are like.

  94. Keys to the Kingdom*

    Hey, commentariat. Me here! I posted in this thread a few weeks ago: https://www.askamanager.org/2019/03/open-thread-march-22-23-2019.html#comments

    For those of you that don’t know me, I’m working with a Contractor whose role I’m meant to be replacing, but they’re still working with us and treating me…really crappily.

    I wanted to update you guys on what happened. Basically, I had a meeting with Boss. The emails that Contractor sent came up in conversation, and it was described as “friction” between me and C. I tried to explain that whilst I do try and get back to them, I don’t have a habit of responding that late on a weekend, nor do I have a habit of having my work phone on me when out. Boss then coolly stated that because we aren’t 18 anymore, we can trust ourselves to take our work phones with us wherever we go. Sure. *sarcasm*

    This then opened up a whole other can of worms, where Contractor has apparently been saying I haven’t acclamated to the role yet, and Boss was inclined to agree big time. They said a range of things – I haven’t been successful in X, haven’t done Y, haven’t figured out Z…Basically, it was an hour of getting my butt handed to me. Boss basically told me that if I don’t pick up my sh*t, I’m out the door (my words, not theirs). I left feeling really dejected, which was awful because I had vacation the next day and spent the entire long weekend feeling utterly hopeless.

    But I decided to turn the entire situation around. My boss wants new ideas without telling me what kind of ideas they want? I’ll do it! They want me to take more ownership of the role from Contractor, sure, no problem, but if it bites me in the butt because Contractor says I’m acting up, I’ll be sure to mention it! Whatever I was allegedly “not doing”, I’m trying my best to show that I am, and HAVE BEEN, doing it.

    I also decided, however, to just kill Contractor with kindness. I’m way too young in comparison to them to feel some type of way and react crappily. I’m keeping my exchanges with them as positive as I possibly can, but the responses I get are extremely cold and indifferent.

    On top of that, Contractor has basically started doing what they accused me of doing – not sending replies! I’ve sent important texts and emails asking them about certain projects, and never get a response, but then be sent an email asking me for something totally unrelated, as if I haven’t asked them anything. I’d like to think we’re above this type of pettiness, especially when my own delays in responding are for legitimate reasons.

    All in all, despite everyone’s amazing advice (which I took very seriously!), it seems to have blown back on me. I have a few weeks left before I have an end of six month review (I assume), and I guess my future will go from there. I’ve applied and interviewed on the phone for a few places in the meantime, to try and salvage my sanity.

    I’ll keep you guys posted. Wish me luck!

    1. Deryn*

      Shoot! This was not the update I was hoping for! It might just be a situation you can’t salvage, but at least you’ll know you’ve done your best. I’m cheering for you, wherever you end up putting roots down!

      1. valentine*

        I wonder if this is like the recent re-post where the guy hired someone to replace him, then didn’t leave for 10 months. Maybe C has nowhere better to go and these two want to stay in each other’s pockets, so they want you out, but don’t want to admit that (weird) or are afraid you’ll sue because sexism. So…you have to keep your phone on you and be on call 24/7? Even if salaried/exempt, you didn’t sign on for this. What if you cc your boss on the emails so he can see there’s no reply? Or update him: “Pending C’s reply”? Especially if there is never a reply or it’s days late. You can do the update last thing or when your boss is out to lunch (when is he not?), so it’s the first thing he sees. Also: maybe write subjects like “Project X: C’s reply pending” so he’s forced to read your emails.

  95. Ask a Manager* Post author

    After reading the comments on today’s short-answer post about how job seeking used to work before cell phones and email, is anyone else feeling like all the old-school gumption advice makes a lot more sense? Like if it would normally takes several weeks of postal mail correspondence to set up interviews (!), no wonder people got an advantage by just showing up with their resume in person. Etc.

    And a bunch of the people still giving that advice must just not realize how much things have changed, or don’t realize why it was like that in the first place.

    1. Arctic*

      Totally. And I think it also explains why GUMPTION sometimes works. It’s annoying that as horrible gumption advice is there is always that odd story of it working out for someone. And, thus, provides anecdotal evidence that it works. Which just perpetuates the cycle of terrible advice.
      But for some hiring managers, yeah, that’s how they got their job. And they might think that people who just do it the normal, appropriate way are lazy compared to the lengths they had to go to.

    2. The Man, Becky Lynch*

      Absolutely. It’s always made sense to me because of knowing how things worked pre-cell phone lol, I have older than usual parents for my age though.

      My dad always told me to be ready to be hired on the spot and to just “ask” if there’s any openings at places. Since yes, a lot of times you’d go to the doctors office and see signs with “receptionist wanted” posted.

      Thankfully my parents also were happy to evolve with technology and understood that yes, I really was applying via email and didn’t need to follow up. My dad used to praise my Craigslist ads for construction supplies because he always saw them scrolling looking for his own random things. So he wasn’t sketched out when that’s how we started finding job ads.

    4. Elizabeth West*

      Yes. I started working before cell phones and internet, but I’ve adapted to the point where I can’t imagine not having it again. It’s hard as hell to explain to people like my parents, for example, why I need internet and why I can’t just “pound the pavement.” They know it’s a thing, but they don’t use it and I don’t think they understand how ubiquitous the internet is.

      Workers who have never had to make that transition might not get it, even if they’re younger.

    5. Tinker*

      Yeah, it’s weird — this was a thing that I have known intellectually must be the case given the “back in umpty-ump… carved my resume into a potato… worked my way up from junior yak-shaver… and that’s how I convinced the big boss to give me a chance”, but reading all those stories where people were focusing on explaining what the experience was for them rather than telling me what my experience should be when it plainly wasn’t made it make a lot more sense overall.

      I also have more career and life experience than I did back when I was more often the primary target of GUMPTION advice, and looking back from the benefit of that experience… actually kind of puts it in context where and how I was correct (when that was the case, of course). I went to an engineering school have always worked in tech, and when I was younger my social circle was dominated by tech folks — so I knew some things about how the job market worked for me, but I didn’t understand as much about how it worked for people whose backgrounds were very different from mine and hence couldn’t as often say “oh, the potato thing is because back then paper didn’t hold up as well when it was shoved through a series of tubes, but offices nowadays actually don’t even have potato tubes”.

      And then also, related to that last point — you say the folks still giving the advice must not realize how much things have changed, and I think that’s true. I also think, looking back, that some of the time what causes that lack of knowledge is a tendency not to listen to or respect people who they perceive as below them. Almost all of my particularly outrageous tales of GUMPTION involve my mother, and while proximity obviously has a lot to do with that, it also contributed that my mother tends to view me with affectionate and mostly-benign contempt — she didn’t ask the cat what jobs her child should apply for, so why should she pay attention to what I say? This is another thing that I thought was normal when I was younger because that used to be most of my world, and I’ve later found it’s not necessarily so.

      The folks on the thread were intrinsically speaking from a basis that legitimate differences in perspective are expected to exist, which is probably an uncommon characteristic among people actively giving GUMPTION advice and one that tends to make communication more productive.

    6. Audiophile*

      My mom is now retired, but we battled when I graduated high school and again when I graduated college about the right way to apply for a job.

      This was back in the early 2000s and she did not believe me that calling or showing up was going to result in rejection. She insisted I was doing it wrong, by applying through the internet, because in her day you mailed out your resume on nice resume paper. And then you called to follow up on your application. And you always discussed salary during the interview. She even threatened to cut off the internet.

      She insisted I call companies or show up and apply. While that works in retail, in some cases, they still have you fill out an application on a computer connected to the internet.

      For a long time, she would plop down the Pennysaver in front of me and insist that I was missing out on jobs. She even circled some. Rarely were the instructions “call us”, instead it was often that you email your application.

      I eventually got through to her, but it took a lot of time.

    7. Laura H.*

      That was a really cool thread. And yes- the advice definitely has at the very least a discernible “why”, which helps me maybe not be as chafed about it.

    8. ThursdaysGeek*

      Right. Because in those days, dropping off a resume was faster and more reliable than mailing it. Now, emailing it is faster than dropping it off.

      But any of us who were in the job market then and are still in it now – we can see that it has changed. Changed in so many ways, sometimes for the better, and sometimes not.

    9. AcademiaNut*

      Yes, a lot of the gumption, pound-the-pavement, resume printed on good paper, sit by the phone when applying for jobs really was perfectly fine advice for a different era.

      And older people in steady jobs don’t realize how things have changed in the same way that younger people can be baffled by the idea that sending a paper letter could be the most efficient and reliable way of contacting someone.

      I think a couple of weeks is overestimating, though. If you were applying locally, a letter would get to you in a couple of days, and you could phone back during business hours to set up the interview or accept an offer.

      I wonder if the a similar thing applied to job centres (university and otherwise). Pre internet, they would be a valuable source of job *listings* and contact with potential employers, not just dispensing dubious advice.

    10. Miss Pantalones en Fuego*

      Certainly the pound the pavement advice made more sense. When I was in high school or even college in the late 80s it made sense to go around the mall filling in applications. These days you can’t even turn up at the temp agency without an appointment – – the door is locked (at least in my city!) and if you do catch someone they will tell you to look at the jobs on their website.

  96. Emmie*

    What would you like in a mentor? How would you like the relationship to start off? I’m formally mentoring coworkers – some will be out of my field – and I want your advice. I would love to know what you found valuable in a mentor; how I can make this valuable for mentees; and how to start the the relationship because I imagine the mentees may not know the outcomes they want from the relationship.

    1. knitter*

      I was assigned a mentor because I’m new to my school district, but I’m a 15+ year vet in the field. I value my mentor because she can help me understand the inner workings of the org that I might miss and give me someone to bounce ideas off of in a more relaxed environment. She also is on top of me to advocate for myself in ways that a boss cannot be.

      I would start the conversations being upfront with the ways you feel like you can be helpful then ask them to state what their needs are. Then check-in regularly to make sure the focuses remain the same.

    2. Coffeelover*

      Knitter has a really good and succinct answer, but I’d like to elaborate with my own thoughts.

      I’ve had 3 mentors in my life so far; 2 were assigned by my company in an official capacity and 1 was informal. In terms of starting off, I think it’s good to do a bit of an informational interview. Talk about your past experience, what brought you into the role, what you’re working on now, etc. Same thing with the person you’re mentoring. I think it’s really important for both of you to understand who the other person is. That may seem obvious but I haven’t had it always go like that either.

      Then I think it’s important to identify how you can actually help the other person. Is this someone you can help in a technical way specific to your field? Are they strong technically, but need help navigating the politics? Do they need help developing relationships in your company that you can facilitate in some way? Do they have some skill they want to develop that your particularly strong with? Basically, what are this person’s goals and what are they hoping to get out of this mentorship. How can you help them develop in their career.

      Also, have a set time to discuss things and make yourself available to them. Start by meeting every other week (or whatever makes sense) and go from there. Create a safe space by demonstrating you’re available, that you’re happy to help and of course – keep things confidential!

      It takes some time to get into the flow of things with mentorships, but I also think it’s important to evaluate whether the mentorship is providing value after some time has past. As the mentor, you should take the lead to make sure the relationship is beneficial (in a mentorship kind of way). I had one mentorship a few years into my career that was… well useless in a mentorship capacity. My mentor had the same amount of experience as I (so couldn’t really help me with “working in an office” type stuff) and worked in a totally different area in a massive company (so couldn’t help me with technical things or the politics of my specific area). We spent our meetings just chatting about random stuff not related to the job. It was awkward because I had to be the one to slowly decrease the intervals of our meetings until he finally transferred to a new office – we still chat in a buddy kind of way but it was never a mentorship. It was much harder for me to say “you’re not really teaching me anything” than it would have been for him to say “I don’t think there’s a benefit in continuing an official mentorship but I’m happy to catch up with you when you have sometime.”

    3. Emmie*

      Thank you, knitter and Coffee Lover, for the advice. I appreciate the detail in your answers, and the tips. These are helpful to me!

  97. So very anon*

    How do you deal with constant, low level anxiety at work, when you have a lot of intrusive thoughts as a side effect?

    One thing I particularly worry about is that although I have my own office isolated from others I always worry someone might overhear because I tend to have trouble not saying them (at a whisper) to myself.

    1. Semaj*

      Honestly, if you can access and afford it, therapy. Intrusive thoughts and anxiety are heavy things to carry around and seeking treatment greatly helped me.

      If you can’t afford it, I highly recommend watching The Anxiety Guy videos on YouTube, all of his videos are free and I’ve found them very helpful. Good luck.

    2. Red Sky*

      Drugs. Seriously, when I started a new antidepressant after years of trying and failing to find one that worked for me, I noticed a decrease in intrusive thoughts and general anxiety in addition to a decrease in depression. I still get some intrusive thoughts and anxiety spikes, but it’s much less often and I can usually tie it to where I’m at in my cycle. Therapy, on the other hand, didn’t really help in the frequency of intrusive thoughts, but it did help me recognize what they were and that my brain was being a jerk.

  98. LondonBridges*

    What should I look for in business casual that won’t make me overheat? I got accepted for an internship in Seville this summer (I’m from the American Midwest) and I’m absolutely thrilled. The offer letter specified that the dress code is business casual, and I’m wondering what I can find that will fulfill that, but not be too hot for Spain in June and July. I have a couple cap-sleeve blazers that I’m planning on bringing, but what other suggestions do people have?

    1. The Original K.*

      I was in Seville in late August and it was very hot (and beautiful!). My business casual warm-weather wardrobe is almost entirely skirts and dresses, and often the dresses are sleeveless and I bring a light cardigan or leave one at work. I think some lightweight shift dresses would be good.

    2. Ranon*

      No polyester/synthetic linings! For specific brands, J Crew and Boden tend to have some pieces that are linen/cotton/silk outers with cotton lining which will breathe much, much better than synthetics. Poshmark is a great place to pick pieces up for good deals.

      I started walking to work in a hot climate last year and basically my entire summer wardrobe is those types of brands/ fabrics. Cotton seersucker is pretty great, too.

    3. Admin of Sys*

      Skirts! I’m in the american south and it can often get up past 100F in the summer. Very light linen pants are tolerable but will wrinkle if you glance sideways at them. But light weight skirts are great, because you get the breeze. And if you can get away with looser flowing types, get longer ones and you can skip nylons. Pair with short sleeved blazers and nice light weight knit jackets over shells. Open toed sandals can also be a life saver if that doesn’t come across as too casual.

    4. The Man, Becky Lynch*

      Light fabrics [but of course making sure they aren’t see-through] help, breezy ones that allow your skin to breathe.

      I wear three quarter length sleeved tunics a lot, they breathe very well and are classic looking. You can also get them that are shorter sleeves but not quite cap-sleeved.

    5. AcademiaNut*

      Linen blend slacks? They’re cool but professional looking (pure linen wrinkles too easily).

      I find cotton is tricky. It absorbs liquid, so if you sweat a lot it gets soaked and doesn’t dry out, particularly in humid climates. There are synthetic fabrics made specifically for breathability, or blended fabrics that work well. And I can’t wear skirts without nylons (which are too hot), because sweating plus chubby thighs means horrible chafing.

      My favourite nice looking summer tops are actually short sleeve polyester/spandex tunic tops. They hang well, let the breeze through, the sweat dries quickly, and odours don’t cling to them.

      Oh, and non-padded bras! The padding acts like a sponge under your breasts that gets wet on the way to work and doesn’t dry out until after you get home.

      1. Miss Pantalones en Fuego*

        I always wear some kind of shorts with a dress or skirt (there are many brands out there specifically designed to stop chafing). Contrary to expectations I feel much cooler wearing them than I would with bare legs because they help wick the sweat away. But I still have bare legs from mid thigh down.

    6. ..Kat..*

      Can you ask someone there for pictures of what would be appropriate? I would hate for you to spend money for a wardrobe that is appropriate for American Midwest business casual and then find that it is not appropriate for Seville business casual.

      Congratulations on your internship!

      1. valentine*

        Can you ask someone there for pictures of what would be appropriate?
        This is a great idea.

        The Mediterranean sun is killer and, if you’re going to be out on foot a lot, you may lose enough weight that you need to replace your wardrobe.

  99. Françoise*

    I quit my job a few weeks ago because I am moving abroad. I do not have a job lined up there, first I’ll focus on learning the language and settling.
    My boss really wants to keep me and has offered to work remotely. I love many aspects of my job but I am close to a burn-out. My reponsibilities would change with the move so rhe workload might become more manageable but I have some concerns.
    I know this is not much info but what are your thoughts? Would you go with your gut feeling and experience that ‘nah, this ain’t gonna get any better’ or would you accept it because money can be tight in a few months?
    When changing from office-based to remote, what boundaries do you wish you’d set?

    1. Havarti*

      Time zones? How do they affect your availability during their office hours? Does your job have remote workers already (and hopefully a policy in place) or are they just going to wing this with you? Would they expect you to travel back to the home office for certain meetings or would you be 100% remote? How tight would the money be if you decided to take a break instead? How long are you planning to spend learning the language and settling in? What’s the job market like where you’re moving to? You don’t need to actually answer the questions here but they’re things I would think about.

    2. Karen Walker presents...*

      Some might so ‘go abroad but mitigate the changes with a familiar job’ another would say ‘Changes all around.

      I moved to Germany and left a NC non-profit. I took a year contract with them which really made it nice to have a purpose in a new country (we were military so it wasn’t like we were totally alone). But it was so flexible that we could travel every month and learning the language and culture was a lot easier than if I had a traditional remote work position.

      I don’t think the job, issues or burn-out will change with new responsibilities and a remote job might even exacerbate issues. Especially if you’ve never work from home before, now you’re doing it with a time change. There’s an art to remote work.

      Boundaries if you take the remote job:

      – You’re not chained to a desk/messaging system and you can travel as you need (because if you think you’ll have time to see it all – odds are you won’t) because you can’t learn a new language from your home office.

      – Opt for a contract so you have flexibility for the work and dictate how you do it. Sure there may be deadlines but you can work towards those as you see fit. (don’t forget the US tax implication)

    3. Atlantic Toast Conference*

      Another thing to consider is any work visa issues that you’d have to deal with, or any legal issues around employing someone in another country that your employer would have to deal with.

    4. ContemporaryIssued*

      I would negotiate if you can do some aspect of your job abroad. Honestly, it never hurts to have a back up plan, especially when doing such something that requires a big change. It never hurts to be earning because your settling into the new country may take a lot longer than you expect.

      How is the new country in your industry, how do visas work, is the language something you think you will pick up fast, something you already know a bit? I know of so many people who underestimate the difficulty of working in a different country, a lot of countries have set up their systems to be actively hostile or at least very difficult to foreign workers, and in some countries, even if have all the skills and experience, there may still be this lingering “not one of us” feeling.

      In my own country, language is a huge barrier. People do speak English and some business is conducted in English and not our local languages, but for the most part people do require full professional command of the local language.

    5. M*

      I’ve done it. Keep in mind that if you’re not in the office, it’s harder to chase colleagues for input/work product/etc; and if you’re in a completely different timezone meetings are a nightmare. Those things combined create a lot of work, so have some realistic conversations with your manager about what workload is workable for you – particularly given they’re desperate to keep you. Have the hard conversations about pre-scheduled regular calls, limits on the tasks you take on, etc, before you leave – they’re even worse to have over the phone than in person.

  100. buckylunch*

    I recently moved on from a job with an extremely toxic boss (huge thanks to AAM for helping me escape, of course!). Since I left, my ex-boss’ behavior has escalated, to the point that she’s under investigation for trying to fire a former coworker, and a friend of mine, for taking FMLA leave. I found out that she is coming to my new workplace’s annual conference. I’m incredibly anxious about dealing with her. Her behavior is/was absolutely abusive, so I don’t know that I can manage polite pleasantries with her, but I’m afraid she’ll make a scene if I respond with anything less than the grandest of welcomes. Anybody have any advice for how to deal with this?

    1. Havarti*

      What’s your role at this conference? Are you helping to run it? If yes, can you talk to your boss and see if they can move you to a less public role, run interference, or something? If you’re not involved and would be there as an attendee, give yourself permission to run away to the bathroom or outside if needed. Still talk to your boss if possible. Ideally, you don’t want to run into her. If you do and you’re polite and she responds by having a screaming fit in the middle of the room? That’s on her. And if your boss is forewarned, they won’t be surprised by it.

    2. Kathenus*

      Cool professionalism. If you can avoid her, great, but if not just a neutral “Hello, nice to see you” and move on. Doesn’t matter that it’s not true. Just take the high road with being professional, but you don’t need to do anything more than that. If she reacts negatively, stay neutral, and politely excuse yourself – ‘I have to meet a colleague’, or whatever. I’ve been there. The first time I saw toxic ex-boss it wreaked havoc with my anxiety. The next year, I almost reveled in how uncomfortable she seemed to be while I was the complete professional. As much as it sucks to deal with this, it’s a good skill to work on. Best of luck.

      1. buckylunch*

        Thanks, this is super helpful! I’m not the primary organizer, more of a support role. I’ve made the conference organizer aware, so I think I’m covered if she does flip out.

  101. Urban Fantasy Author Regular*

    I post periodically under another name (that I want to keep somewhat anonymous for the rare times I do comment) and several people have expressed interest in checking out my books. I kept chickening out because staying anonymous is way less pressure but since so many people here are geeks and urban fantasy fans like me, I decided to be brave.

    So if anyone wants to look up my stuff, I have three books out from Penguin/Random House (under their Ace imprint) and I’m relaunching my indie career with a different urban fantasy series. You should be able to look this up by clicking through to my website if my gravatar works correctly!

    If not, I’ll share a few more details so you can look it up yourself. And now back to lunch because my silly anxiety at sharing this is like whoa!

    1. Amber Rose*

      Alison took away the ability to link to things in names and avatars, since people were abusing it to get around moderation. You’ll have to post the actual links.

        1. Amber Rose*

          Wow, you have done a lot! I don’t have time to look into them too much because… work. But I’ll come back to this later.

          1. Urban Fantasy Author Regular*

            Well, I kind of fell into a hole of grief over losing five close family members in a short time and workplace stress, but I’m much better now and in a day job that’s an awesome fit. So now I’m working hard to get more stuff out there. I start to stress over the years I could have been writing more than just agent proposals but then remind myself I was too unwell to do more than what I did.

            I’m super excited to be producing again! :)

          1. Urban Fantasy Author Regular*

            Thank you. I appreciate that! And I totally get the having to budget for books thing. So many books, so little money!

  102. Daniel*

    Between the worst boss, worst intern, worst holiday disaster, etc. threads that we have, I feel as though we need a worst IT struggle thread.

    We had a prime example occur to us just today: we have an employee moving from one roll to another. She needs to access the files in a specific folder to do her job, so she can check our archives, update our tracking spreadsheets, and things like that.

    We sent a request down to ITS to give her that access. Lo and behold, they tell us that they are done, and when she goes to the folders…none of it works. She can go into the folders just fine, but she can’t actually open the files, no matter what file type they all.

    We put in a ticket, they get back to us two days later, and on the phone, the IT guy tells her that what they did was correct, “because you requested access to the folders, without specifying what you needed to open within the folders.” Because looking at a file in a folder without being able to OPEN the file is so, so useful.

    1. LCL*

      This isn’t horrible but it is recurring. HR has decided that whenever someone is on long term leave, their network account will be deactivated after some period of time known only to them. Without notifying anyone involved. In the meantime their manager and supervisor and other HR people are trying to reach them through the known contact of their company email, which now doesn’t work. I have asked my management to figure out the process I need to follow to get their account reactivated, but so far the process has been slightly different each time. I suspect some internal power struggle is behind all this confusion.

    2. ArtsNerd*

      Oof.

      We had an external vendor ‘upgrade’ our system after casually mentioning it to our front-line manager who said ‘sure’ since it was free.

      Yeah, so it broke everything. Absolutely everything. The new system was beta-ready at best (maybe late alpha) and the data feed was an entirely different structure, no online reporting for months, and they messed up some of our pricing in their system (because we couldn’t yet input it ourselves at that point) costing us thousands of dollars in revenue.

      Management has recognized the need to change vendors for a while but kept kicking the can down the road because the transition is going to be hard and painful. Of course now, we’ve already gone through all the pain without having the benefit of a better system at the end of it! There’s so much going on this year but I think our leadership is so fed up they’re ready to make the switch for real.

    3. Semaj*

      Ugh. Our IT person in my last department set me up as a delegate in my boss’s outlook account so that I could manage her calendar. Which worked great, until I gave notice that I was moving to another department and requested they remove my delegate access. 11 months into the new job now and I still get every single meeting request for my old boss. At this point I’ve just created a folder for them but sometimes they slip through and it’s obnoxious.

    4. just a random teacher*

      IT keeps changing around everyone’s Chrome extensions district-wide, presumably as a result of “someone somewhere has a specific problem whack-a-mole”. This month, they’ve removed the ad blocker (and blocked anyone from re-installing it individually) and added some sort of accessibility software that automatically gives students things like dictionary definitions of words on all websites they visit, including the sites we use for things like online exams (not standardized ones, since those wouldn’t be through the browser, but course-based ones). No email has gone out about either of these things.

      I really want the ad blocker back. I also just want to know when changes are made.

    5. Kat in VA*

      I have a problem with my CTO being unable to login to iPOS. They keep insisting that his credentials work, he tries it, they don’t work. He’s had an item waiting for final line approval for a MONTH.

      Those who use iPOS will appreciate how infuriating this is.

  103. KPT*

    I’m wondering if anyone has advice for transitioning from survival mode back to a learning/mentorship mindset?

    Some background: A few months ago I started a new position leading institutional fundraising (grants, corporate support, and similar) for a mid-sized nonprofit. When I started, my boss was on maternity leave and the person I was replacing had retired a month earlier (and had been out sick for the month prior to that, and had kept terrible records for the 20 years prior to that). Needless to say there was a tremendous backlog of work from the outset; no clear expectation setting, which has meant taking marching orders from just about anyone who wanted something from me (which was everyone, as everyone had been either waiting months for things or had been doing things outside of their job descriptions for months); and also no time for any meaningful learning, strategic thinking about future fundraising, systematization of work processes, etc. Even without taking lunch there has been barely enough time in the workday to just hit deadlines and keep my head above water.

    The good news is that my boss will be returning from maternity leave on Monday. The bad news is that the past few months of constant survival mode and the (lack of) onboarding process have really soured me on this job. I know I need a mental reset AND a work style reset if this position is going to be in any way sustainable. I would love to hear your suggestions for how to make this transition, as well as how to best communicate both my frustrations and needs to my boss (who I have never worked with!) in a constructive way.

    Thanks in advance!

    1. frenchtoast*

      In my performance review, my boss said the biggest thing I need to work on is coaching my (1) employee. I’m in agreement with this – I’m still a relatively new first-time manager (a year) and I want to improve my coaching and delegating skills, so I don’t disagree with the feedback at all. But…. I’m super uncomfortable with the way my boss speaks about my employee and I’m worried she’s being kind of ageist towards her?

      My employee is great at the core elements of her job (exceeds targets, comes up with improved processes, etc.), but struggles with some of the professionalism elements of the job, like being more engaged with our team and not just her own work, having a more positive attitude, organization skills, etc. Not untypical stuff for a 23 year old in their first full time job.

      It’s not so much the complaints my boss is making, but the tone and intent she ascribes to my employee’s behavior. Some examples:
      -boss tells me employee is “only ever goofing off on the internet/her phone and never seems to be working”. I addressed this with my employee, through the lens of being more aware of optics and that she needs to be conscientious of what she’s doing in our open concept office. But frankly, she gets her work done ahead of time and is taking on new projects, so I’m not really super concerned if she takes occasional texting breaks when her work is high quality.
      -boss said I need to get employee to “actually participate in meetings and not just sit there staring at the floor, not paying attention”. Definitely going to work on this, but it’s her first full time job. Our team is 20 people, including 5 senior execs. Nothing has led me to believe she doesn’t pay attention, because she talks about the topics after the fact, she’s just not participating heavily (which is absolutely on par with our other team members with her job title)
      -boss also rarely says my employee’s name, usually calling her “that girl” when she talks to me, which makes me SUPER uncomfortable.
      -boss has asked employee to send her a weekly schedule every Monday with her to-do list and timelines. Employee has thorough project plans for her projects, all of which have been shared with boss. Also, again, as her manager: she’s meeting deadlines! I’ve said that very explicitly and boss says the to do list is just for boss’s “learning”, but my employee asked me explicitly if this is a PIP or something that she should take as a serious concern for her job.
      -boss asks a lot of “why isn’t employee doing [new potential opportunity]?” These are always things that are new ideas for us to consider in our work, but they’re definitely “above and beyond” items. It’s never phrased as “could she look into doing this?” or “I’d like her to start doing this” but “why hasn’t she already done it?” Again, this is good feedback for me to take into coaching conversations, but it never seems like something I need to coach her on, but something she’s apparently already failing at.

      For context, there are a handful of other team members in my employee’s role status (the most junior at our organization). I would say they are on the same level of work output, with slightly higher professional skills, but the next youngest person on our team is 28.

      Am I wrong to find boss’s focus on my employee or is this reasonable feedback to get? If other people also think it’s kind of weird, any ideas or scripts for how to address it with my boss (or should I be bypassing boss entirely and seek input from my grand-boss or HR, both of whom I trust for advice)?

      2. MayLou*

        That does sound like maybe your boss is hung up on your employee’s age and interpreting things through the lens of “young, irresponsible millennial”. It also sounds as though she is trying to circumvent your managerial role by using you as her managing puppet, so to speak. If the main thing that was said at YOUR review was that you need to work harder on improving your employee’s work in slightly odd, non-verifiable or flat-out incorrect ways (like saying she needs to pay attention more, when your impression is that she is already paying attention) then that seems strange to me. I’d ask the opinion of grand-boss or HR about whether this is what they had in mind when they assigned you a direct report. If they wanted your boss to manage your employee, surely they’d have just had her do that directly?

  104. christina*

    I’m about to negotiate an offer for the first time – help!

    How much more would you ask for on an offer of $63k and 17 PTO days? I’m planning to ask for 68k and getting bumped to the next PTO level (19 days) – reasonable? It’s a stable nonprofit, but a new role.

    1. blabla*

      Good for you for asking. I would be surprised if they would have flexibility on the PTO because most nonprofits I’ve worked for have not. $68 is a good ask for an offer of $63. Expect them to come back with $65 – will that work for you?

    2. ArtsNerd*

      Both of those sound eminently reasonable. Something else you can negotiate if it’s not built in (and appeals to you) is WFH or a flexible/alternate schedule.

  105. What are my POSITIVE ATTRIBUTES*

    One of my employees announced her retirement to me this week. She is a standard retiring age and is vocal about her plans to relax and not get another job. So I’m curious about her request in her retirement email that I provide ‘a letter of [her] positive attributes’ before her end date.

    Is this a thing?

    It’s not a huge deal for me to provide so I will do it but I’ve heard of this before. I’m not sure what tone I take and if it should be like a letter of recommendation or more in line with what I would put at the end of year evaluation.

      1. Kathenus*

        Agree. Maybe it’s for a future side gig, maybe it’s for volunteer opportunities. If you can truthfully do it, and it might help her out, I think it would be great to give her the letter.

    2. The Man, Becky Lynch*

      I agree to ask her about the audience for the recommendations.

      It could be for volunteer groups or perhaps she doesn’t count a part-time job as “another job” or perhaps seasonal work kind of things.

    3. Where'sthemoneyLucas?*

      When my mother retired she decided to join some volunteer committees for the local government. They required very little time and effort on her part (a few hours a month). She needed letters of recommendation to join. Your employee could be planning to do something like that.

  106. Ace in the Hole*

    Thanks to everyone who encouraged me in last week’s thread! I was really anxious about a job interview for a cool government job. Results from the interview:

    It went really well! The job sounds AMAZING, we had a good rapport, one of the panel members even complimented my essay responses from the application. Unfortunately it turns out a bachelors is required so I’m not eligible :(

    On the positive side, it was a great networking opportunity and the department head gave me some really great career/education advice and said as soon as I get my degree I should apply again. So that’s nice!

  107. coffee cup*

    I applied for a job last week for the first time in 7 years and I am not confident at all that it was a good application, despite taking advice from here. It just wasn’t right, I could feel it. I’m a bit sad about it, but I guess it’s good practice for getting back into applying. I am quite rusty!

    1. The Man, Becky Lynch*

      I had the same feelings when I started looking after 10 years at a previous employer. It’s not as bad as you think it is, you’re just overly critical because you’re rusty and probably projecting! It gets easier, it did for me at least :)

  108. Job History Question*

    Not sure what to do with a one year-ish job in my work history that in retrospect was a flustercluck.

    After graduating from college, I worked full time for the same company I had worked a couple of summer and winter breaks as a part time employee (still worked 40 hour weeks). I was there for 2 years, then left when I moved to get married. I had a new job lined up, but it was such a bad fit I asked for my old job back and worked from home for a year before being laid off when they redesigned my department.

    The place I had moved to is a small city and still lags behind in terms of economic recovery and I couldn’t really find anything similar, so I took a job with a small family owned company to train as a…lets call it llama cage installer. It was owned by a married couple where one was the main llama cage installer and the other did the marketing and back office work. The office was in their house. I liked their mission and thought I could be good at it. After a couple months, they let me know it wasn’t working out, but the administrative work I did for them using my old skill set was so good they wanted to make me a back office employee. Frankly, the way they did this was terrible and they told me they wanted to meet me while I was with family for thanksgiving and basically made me think I was getting fired without any “hey, we need you to do better or we’ll need to let you go” conversations. I needed the money, even if it was pitiful, so I stayed on.

    A few months later, the couple had a pretty nasty divorce and that definitely changed everything. I decided to leave and go back to grad school, but my boss may have taken it personally even though they really liked my work. I really should have left earlier when I started seeing red flags, but my spouse was a grad student and I couldn’t not work.

    We’re moving to a bigger city for my spouse’s job so I’m starting a job search. Now that I’m job hunting, I’m not sure what to do with this one. It was for just under a year, and while I was able to do a few good things, at the end it turned more into being another receptionist and didn’t really add much to my skill set. I also don’t trust that my former boss would provide a good reference and not try to get back at me for leaving during a difficult time. I would have a little over 3 years working for one place, a blank year, then 1 1/2 years as a full time grad student. Now I’m back in my original line of work and have been at my current job for a little over a year.

    Should I leave that toxic job off my resume but include it in my work history? Should I just remove it from the resume and work history? Should I highlight what I was able to accomplish on my resume, but not use them as a reference? What about on my LinkedIn? My first boss and my current boss would be willing to give me references – my current boss already knew that I might need to move but really likes my work and would definitely be willing to give a good reference.

    1. Aspiring Chicken Lady*

      Include it in your work history … you did it, you have those skills and experiences.
      Use other people as references.

    2. The Man, Becky Lynch*

      Include it in your work history but do not use them as a reference. I have been there, barring it being one of those weird jobs that requires a reference from every manager you’ve had [I cannot believe that’s a thing, I’m glad I’m small business for-life over here], you should be just fine.

      I keep all my jobs on my work history unless there’s a ghosting ending [which before that sounds sketchy and awful, those were part-time gigs that were essentially just helping people out and they sucked, so I left them because I have standards]. Then I can still mention casually that I’ve taken in some temporary work with businesses in “these industries” but I haven’t worked there in depth, so illustrate my versatility during an interview

  109. Confession time*

    My colleague is ridiculously good-looking, easily one of the best-looking men I’ve been around in real life. I sometimes go out of my way to avoid being around him because … ahh, it’s too uncomfortable to think about at work, it’s super inappropriate, and I’m happily married. I’ve had workplace crushes before that fizzled and burned, but this is just one of those weird physical reactions that I constantly have to keep in check. So uncomfortable. I feel better for owning up to it. ;)

    1. WomanOfMystery*

      Read The Atlantic article about how hot people are stressful! I know that feeling so well—the “you’re a very pleasant person, I have no human feelings for you, just some animal feelings!”

    2. Also joining in on confession time*

      Whoo, kind of know that feeling. You’re not a bad person for feeling that way, though. (And…okay, I’m saying this because I’ve had coworkers and direct reports who I thought were cute. Never acted on it, though.) I think what’s helped is that 95% of the time the Hot Guy eventually does something that completely disabuses me of whatever attraction I’ve had to him. So just keep that in mind – he might be super attractive physically, but he’ll probably do something that is extremely unsexy sooner or later.

      Short of that, I’m not sure how to suggest fighting it other than…don’t. I don’t mean that you should divorce your husband and hook up with Hot Colleague, but also…you know, don’t try to avoid Hot Colleague and his hotness. That might actually be making it a bit harder to deal with – because a lot of times, when you try not to think about something (like…eggplants), you end up thinking about it (like now I want eggplant parm for lunch). Obviously, you don’t want to go around being VERY OBVIOUSLY attracted to him or say anything that would be considered harrassment, but if you have Rather Impure Thoughts…they’re there and no one else knows about them except you (and maybe the readership of AAM, who have no idea who you are IRL).

      1. Confession time*

        Uh yeah, he is a direct report. Just acknowledging that makes me blush.

        And I’m totally going to read that Atlantic article!

        1. The Original K.*

          It spawned a great Twitter thread about what people did when they were suddenly and unexpectedly faced with hot people (often doctors or nurses)!

        2. ..Kat..*

          You are his manager. Please don’t find ways to avoid him. This is unfair to him! You will not be giving him the support he should be receiving from you as a manager. Also, others will start to notice. And they will wonder what is wrong with him.

          1. valentine*

            You seriously need to rein this in. There was a recent letter like this. I hope the comments will help you.

    3. The Man, Becky Lynch*

      My mom is happily married for 36 years and with my dad for 42 years. Her exact words are “I’m married, not dead. I can look all I want.” ;)

    4. Been there too*

      My first boss had a side gig as an underwear model. I had to come up with an excuse to swap desks, because where I was originally sitting, his desk was right in front of mine…and it was a standing desk, so his phenomenal rear end was directly in my line of sight. I was so distracted I could barely spell my own name properly.

      It took all of my powers of adulting, but I never let him see a molecule of drool. Think of it as strength training for your professionalism muscles. =)

      1. Confession time*

        OK, this gave me a good laugh. A model?! How is that even allowed at the office? ;)

        1. Been there too*

          He was brilliant, too. MIT grad; senior scientist; 25 years old. He was engaged to someone he’d met through his modeling work…who was, if anything, more impressive. These people exist. They’re also so far out of my league that it’s kind of hilarious.

    5. Not One of the Bronte Sisters*

      I used to work at a place where several of the male employees were ridiculously good-looking. My female colleagues and I decided that the company needed to put out a calendar with the men on it and we decided which one was the best looking and started calling him “Mr. January” to one another, never to him. My daughters (both teenagers at the time) thought this was hilarious. Every night when I got home from work they would ask, “How’s Mr. January?”

    6. Lucette Kensack*

      I have a colleague who literally played Prince Charming at Disneyland. He was hired into an admin job and poached into a character job because he is perfect looking.

  110. HigherEd Anonymous*

    So I’ve got a situation that is mostly resolved now, but if anyone has advice on it, feel free, since the last part leaves me a little at a loss.

    I work at a higher ed institution on the tenure track as faculty. I have a colleague who is also on the tenure track, but misses just about every required meeting, doesn’t keep promises or commitments, misses deadlines to turn in paperwork, doesn’t respond to e-mails, etc. She says that it’s because she’s a single mother and has to spend time with her son. Formerly this was annoying in some respects (for example, when a committee we’re both on would try to arrange a meeting and she would send a snippy email saying something like, “So you’re trying to take his mother away from a growing boy?”), but it didn’t really affect me one way or the other.

    However, I recently became chair of the committee that we’re both on when the old chair reached the end of his term. This colleague e-mailed me and asked me to lie for her and say that she’d been attending meetings when she doesn’t plan to. As explained in her e-mail, she’s now in trouble with the university bureaucracy for not fulfilling a lot of the tenure-track position requirements and the old committee chair had “no trouble” lying for her so she could look like she is (I had no idea this was going on). I replied just saying, “Sorry, I can’t do that,” and she sent back an e-mail accusing me of not being supportive of accommodations for single mothers. I haven’t replied to it because all the things that come to mind are snappish and flippant- like, there’s free on-campus daycare, people have been asked not to schedule their classes at certain times so she can have them, people have been asked to cover her classes pretty constantly when her son is sick, etc., so in my view the only accommodation she’s not getting is “Being allowed to be with my son 100% of the time.”

    I guess the only thing I’m uncertain of now is if I have an obligation to reply to her, or an obligation to report this to someone.

    1. Forkeater*

      Heck yeah I would report that, I can’t believe she put it in writing. I mean I’m sure her life is no cake walk but asking someone to lie for her is not acceptable.

      1. HigherEd Anonymous*

        That’s what gets me. I mean, it’s no skin off my nose if she gets lots of accommodations; it doesn’t actually affect my own tenure process. But trying to pull me into a lie and then imply that I’m being unsupportive is just so WTF.

        As for why she put it in writing, I think maybe she’s become so used to everyone just bending over backwards for her that she didn’t even think it would be a problem.

    2. HigherEd Person*

      Yikes, that’s really hard. I’m sorry. I wouldn’t reply in writing, because it sounds like someone who is acting like this (already accusing you of being biased) would have no problem escalating.

      And, TBH, I wouldn’t report it unless she actively starts lying to you, because as of right now, everything seems to be second-hand reports.

      1. HigherEd Person*

        Okay, re-adjusting my answer now that I’ve thought about it.

        I would report what she asked you to do, but IDK if it would be to the dept chair or who…

        Mainly b/c now you have a record that she asked you to do this, AND you said no, which would CYA later just in case.

      2. fposte*

        It looks like she actively requested the OP to lie for her, though. That’s firsthand, and I’d definitely consider passing that along.

        1. HigherEd Anonymous*

          Yes, the fact that she asked me to lie for her is what I wondered if I had an obligation to report. I think I’m going to talk face-to-face with my supervisor about it first.

    3. CM*

      I think what you did was perfect. I would not reply — doesn’t seem like it would get you anywhere, just more tirades from her. I don’t know if you have an obligation to report — does your institution have a code of ethics or something similar? If there’s no rule about it, I wouldn’t go out of my way to report her. You said she’s already facing consequences for her actions. Just continuing to be truthful and straightforward seems like your best bet. If all you’re saying is “Sorry, I can’t say you were at a meeting when you were not at the meeting,” it’s very hard to credibly accuse you of taking sides. If you’re responding in any other way, either she or the administration could potentially accuse you of being for or against her.

      1. HigherEd Anonymous*

        Now that I think about it, this is probably the best solution. I had a good rapport with my immediate supervisor and was thinking about talking with them, but I don’t really want to get more involved in the situation. I’ll just keep the e-mail in case she does decide to go to the higher-ups and claim I’m not accommodating her or something. (And people really did try! The old chair would offer to change the time of the meeting to any of a half-dozen things that fit her teaching schedule, but she never wanted to meet).

    4. Kathenus*

      I think you responded perfectly. To her pushback, you could either ignore it, reiterate that you won’t lie for her, or you could up the ante and say that you’d hate to set a bad example for her and her son by being dishonest with your employer.

        1. Rosie M. Banks*

          I think I would forward it to my chair, with a note to the effect of, “I wasn’t quite sure what I should do with this note, but I don’t feel comfortable with this.”

          1. valentine*

            I would report it because it’s a slur on my reputation and, if she’s truthful, what else was ex-chair unethical about and, if she’s lying, she’s comfortable libeling the ex-chair.

            I would also find the relevant authority for a larger discussion of her nonsense because her bit about the growing boy makes her someone you don’t want to foist on the community, and certainly not on students (maybe she skips office hours or students have to wait while she tends to the boy), for the rest of her life.

            Can you not kick her off the committee? Does she really meet the standards? There must be standards, like missing x meetings or votes means you’re out.

    5. Business Librarian*

      I am tenured, and my strong recommendation is to forward this to your chair. Please don’t be in the position of not saying something, and somehow this person scrapes by into tenure. There are too many people seeking these positions, including many single mothers, and if this person acts this way BEFORE being tenured, imagine her as a colleague for the rest of your career. I guarantee this behavior will get worse. Her son will be 30 and there will still be excuses.

      I know service commitments are a PITA but they’re worse when only half the department is pulling their weight.

      2. Kat in VA*

        I am not in academia, but my initial reaction to someone who basically isn’t doing her job and then asking HigherEdAnonymous to lie for it – and then doubling down and saying HEA wasn’t being “accommodating” for a situation that many, many single mothers manage to make work without lying and having others lie for her…well, my reaction was filled with lots of four-letter expletives.

        Some people have gumption and in the WORST kind of way.

        I would agree with Business Librarian and report it, if only for the sheer gall of it.

  111. Advice Please?*

    Last fall I applied for a job which I got to the interview stage. at the interview, the Director said it was for a more senior position, but with my qualifications, I can apply for the possible junior one in the spring. I did. but just got the rejection letter today, I guess from the general HR- not even an interview. Then I checked the website and the position was reposted. Should I apply again? reach out to the Director?
    I’m so frustrated already, I’ve been to 5 interviews since fall. no offers- it must be me.

    1. NativeForeigner*

      Some positions are continuously reposted. LinkedIn is full of those. Evidently some companies keep looking for unicorns for a low pay.
      My opinion: If you have been rejected, forget it.

    2. BRR*

      Any number of things might have happened. I wouldn’t reach out or apply again. It stinks but I’d move on.

  112. LGC*

    Oh man, the suggested letters are rough this week. (I’m already having flashbacks.)

    In lighter news: my office actually has a fish microwaver. My department is close to the break area (which is right by the elevator), so it was…very aromatic the past couple of days. (Not so much today, since I’m off from work for the next week!) I actually thought of AAM as I was running around opening the windows (which…no one else thought to do because I think they assumed it was coming from the street? I don’t know).

    1. The Doctor is In*

      Haha, my first thought was that your office had a special microwave just for fish that would not let the office smell bad!

        1. LGC*

          (I’m joking about suggesting the separate fish microwave, but that would solve a LOT of office issues!)

  113. Jaid*

    Remember how I posted about my co-worker blowing up at me?

    Well after an anxious weekend, we seem to have settled on a policy of not speaking to one another. Also, apparently, when I was downstairs for a class in the morning, others upstairs in the unit were arguing with our manager…so there was bad vibes present that I didn’t know about.

    *shrugs* Whatcha gonna do?

    1. valentine*

      I don’t remember what happened, but don’t give her the silent treatment or a neutral face, lest your reputation suffer. Smile and say hello, and speak to her if necessary for work.

  114. Captain S*

    There’s a food truck that parks outside my (large, rather tall) office building once or twice a week and blasts very very loud music. I find it annoying and distracting, especially because it typically parks just below my window. I know people on other floors (it’s a shared building) must hear it too. I often want to ask our office manager to speak to the building management about getting it turned down but I hate feeling like the old curmudgeon who complains about loud music. But it’s so hard to concentrate! I wear headphones but the music is so loud I can hear through them and can often even feel the bass bumping.
    So my question is: is it reasonable to repeatedly complain about the music/food truck? Or do I just need to suck it up, turn my own music up, and hope someone else complains?

    1. AnonyMoosewithTea*

      That is absolutely reasonable! At my workplace, we had a construction site RIGHT next to us (literally–the lot that was 16 feet away was building a gigantic condo building) for two years. When it got bad enough, our HR person (who also buys us office supplies and calls maintenance) would either talk to them directly or ask our building manager to tell them to stop with the truck-beeping noises that went on for two hours straight.

    2. Not All*

      If it that loud, it may actually be violating city regs. I know where I live there is a hotline to call for that type of nuisance issue.

      1. valentine*

        There’s no need to do this as a first volley. Ask the truckers to turn it down. Direct request, direct response. Involving anyone else could leave you like the person who somehow survived two-plus years of a constant car alarm: the person you tell may not want to say anything or may go looking for someone else to say it, etc.

        1. valentine*

          This may be best in person, but, if they have a phone number, call them while the music’s playing, so they know exactly what you mean.

    3. BRR*

      Does the food truck have a website or social media page you could use to reach out to them? I’d start there. If it continues, i think it’s fine to mention to the office manager but if at some point someone doesn’t care (I would be extremely irritated FWIW), this won’t be the hill they die on.

      1. Bostonian*

        Oh yeah. Not only is this an easy way to contact them, but many businesses are very active on social media, and will not only see it right away, but will also probably respond pretty quickly since they don’t want any negative info on their social media.

    4. The Man, Becky Lynch*

      Complain about it! You shouldn’t hear music inside the building that’s being played outside of it. They may not know that it’s that loud since if nobody complains, how would they?

      I would ask them personally about it honestly, if you frequent the truck that is. If you don’t, then go the route of asking the office manager who knows who to talk to. As “that person” in our office, I would go outside and ask them to turn it down if you mentioned it was an issue. If they gave you lip, then you go to the building management or the cops for a noise complaint!

  115. HigherEd Person*

    I don’t really know if there is a good answer to this, but I figured I’d post and see if anyone has advice. TL;DR – is there a way to screen for someone who might just be using me as a ‘practice’ interview? It’s a part-time job, and I only want to consider candidates who are serious about taking on part-time work.

    I’m currently hiring for a part-time position (25-30 hrs/week), and there is absolutely no way this would become a full-time position anytime soon. I’m getting some applicants who are qualified, but I find that I have to reach out to them and say something like “I’m interested in scheduling a first-round phone interview with you, but before moving forward, I’d like to just be certain that you are aware this is a part-time position.” Some of them responded that they weren’t aware (BECAUSE THEY DON’T READ, APPARENTLY) and to please remove them from consideration. Others are like “Yes, I’m aware, and would like to move forward…” yet their resume and cover letter indicate they are seeking full-time work. Also, I know this field, and brand new grads leaving their MA programs are nearly all looking for full-time work, not part-time (barring unforeseen circumstances). And I’m getting the new grads applying to this job.

    So…is there a way that I can screen this in a first-round interview? Like, can I ask something along the lines of “tell me how this part-time position fits into your professional goals” or is that too invasive?

    1. L. S. Cooper*

      If I had applied, I wouldn’t mind the question at all. (Assuming the position fit into my goals, of course, and if it didn’t, I don’t think I’d have any business working there anyway.) It would strike me as being akin to questions about work/life balance, or about goals for the next few years. Might be invasive if you asked about personal goals instead of professional ones, although a good fit might supply that information on their own? I could see someone with school-aged kids being excited by the prospect of work that fits better with school schedules, for example.

    2. AnonyMoosewithTea*

      If they can’t write a cover letter that indicates their willingness to work part time, I just wouldn’t consider them in the first place. In the job description, you might write something like, “please submit cover letter and resume. In cover letter, please describe how a part-time position fits into your professional goals.”

      1. HigherEd Person*

        NO ONE mentioned the part-time work in the cover letter! I didn’t put anything in the job description asking for something like that, so I could see how they wouldn’t automatically think to, but MAN, some of them were like “I am seeking a full-time position that will allow me to utilize my skills…”

        I just don’t want to hire someone and have them be like totally surprised that they can’t work more hours than 30, they can’t get overtime, and it won’t be a full-time position…and then I lose them in a year (despite me actually communicating all of this during the offer stage last time).

        1. AnonyMoosewithTea*

          Yeah, I would definitely request that they talk about the part-time thing in the cover letter. That way, you can also assess whether they can follow directions! ;P

          1. HigherEd Person*

            Too late to rewrite the position description/posting, but I will definitely ask that in the first round phone interview.

            1. valentine*

              I would no more mention part-time in a cover letter (unless requested) than I would mention why I super-duper want to work the stated hours of the position or abide by the dress code. It seems condescending, like I think I have to remind you in case you didn’t read.

      2. Bismuth*

        Lord. Take care of yourself. That sort of environment is not tenable long-term.

        My best advice is to literally take care of yourself: eat well, get exercise, take time to take a breath. You’ll be able to sustain your energy better and focus better, since I’m guessing mistakes are going to eat a lot of time. V8 juice, smoothies, and kefir are great. Nuts are my go-too energy snack, sometimes with raisins. Definitely take breaks. If you can get out a bit at lunch, or just walk around the building a couple times a day, you’ll feel better.

        I hope they’re looking for new employees! If not I’d think of writing an email — alone or in a group — making it clear that this is not good for anyone. If people above you are not taking steps, I’d start job hunting. You don’t want to work under poor conditions, and you do not want to be blamed when a huge mistake is made!

        1. Bismuth*

          Sorry, this was for Watry below.

          I was looking for full time, and not finding anything. A good part-time job came along which paid well enough that I could make it work. I stayed for over two years until I was promoted. It didn’t occur to me to address it in the letter. I was asked about it, and of course my answer was contingent on salary and benefits, just like any other job. Be forthright and ask about it in the phone screening, and in the regular interview too if you like. But you don’t know who has reasons people have for wanting part-time. Anyway, people leave full time jobs quickly all the time.

          I wouldn’t read anything into addressing it in the job letter. We don’t usually talk about salary, commute, or even basic skills — we’re told we need to sell how we’d do great in the role and what we’d do for the company.

    3. blabla*

      Definitely screen for it, whether via phone or in-person. We have part-time jobs where people apply and it’s clear they are actually looking for full-time work and will jump ship as soon as they find a full-time opportunity. I think it’s OK to just ask what kind of work schedule they are searching for and then see how convincing their answers are. If they say they are open to either full-time or part-time positions, that means they want full-time and you should pass.

    4. BRR*

      I’ve seen it included in the position title sometimes. Like “teapot assistant (part-time)” I bet that won’t keep everyone away but most people tend to read the job title.

      1. ArtsNerd*

        Yeah I do that “Teapot assistant (20 hr/week)”. The salary I clearly post in the listing (everyone should do this) also tips people off that it’s not full time.

    5. ArtsNerd*

      Nope I definitely ask that question. I’ve also been honest that I’m concerned that someone just looking for a job will move on in a few months when they find full time employment. Listening to their answers is really useful — some folks with reference freelance or family commitments that make the part-time nature of the work ideal, some will stumble and say “well this is what’s available right now.”

      1. ArtsNerd*

        I joke that we’re the only employer in the country who is relieved when we hear that someone has young children at home because it works so well with our scheduling.

  116. Anonymous for real*

    What is a good way to answer the interview question: “Have you ever had a difficult boss and how did you deal with it?” if I’ve never had a difficult boss?

    I want to work for a legislator as a resume builder so I am fully, 100% aware that I will likely be working for a diva and I am also 100% okay with it. I just don’t know how to answer this question. I was thinking of asking for clarification, e.g. “Difficult in what way? Can you give me a specific scenario?” and just answering in the hypothetical.

    1. fposte*

      Have you ever worked with a difficult co-worker? Had a friend or relative work with a difficult boss? Use those as starting points (making clear that they weren’t your boss, but if they were, you would…) and build from there. Asking them for scenarios isn’t likely to be optimal–they may not have them ready, and you may not be quick at answering a scenario you didn’t expect.

    2. ANon..*

      I think you can interpret “difficult” loosely, like if there were any working styles where you differed from your boss. For example, “I’ve enjoyed working with all of my former bosses. That said, at job X, my boss liked to be reactive and deal with fires as they sprang up, rather than proactive and try to stop fires from happening in the first place, which is my mode of operation. [Example of how you worked harmoniously with boss.]”

      If you want to tailor it to this specific scenario, then you can say that you’ve worked with bosses with a range of personalities, and have always found a way to make it work. Then, if you have it, give an example of two former bosses with opposing work styles, and how you adapted to work with each.

    3. Kathenus*

      In addition to the other commenters’ suggestions. Maybe reframe it in your mind as a time when you’ve had a difficult encounter/situation with a boss, even if the boss isn’t difficult. Even with the best of bosses people can encounter specific instances where there might be conflict, even if it’s a low-level situation, and talk about how you worked to resolve it. I wouldn’t ask your follow up questions though, personally. As a hiring manager I’d find them odd. You could even say something along the lines of ‘I’ve been fortunate to work for very good managers, but here’s a time where I worked through a specific conflict with them/a policy/a coworker/a vendor/etc.’

    4. Me*

      I have been very fortunate to have always had great bosses. That said, I think a lot of offic conflicts between managers and employees comes down to …… they’re interested in how you would handle a conflict with someone you work for. So answer that – no difficult boss required.

  117. Forkeater*

    Please don’t share your sitter or contacts if you don’t want to, you’ve given a lot of good reasons why and I totally commiserate. You’ve even shared resources with her! She’s being really pushy and I think Allison has some good scripts on how to say no to people – maybe try looking on the site for them.

  118. MindOverMoneyChick*

    I know, I know, I know, but…. I’m asking anyway. I applied for a job that seemed like a great fit for my skills and experience. I sent in my materials on a Sunday evening. I got a request for a video interview by noon the next day (yay!).

    We did the interview about two weeks ago and I thought it went very well. They walked me through the next steps of the process and said they would be in touch. I sent a follow up/thank you email the next day.

    It’s been almost 2 weeks and I’ve heard nothing. Do I at some point email and just ask if I’m still in the running? I feel like the answer is just be patient and there’s no real point in asking. I know AMA advice is to just move on after sending materials or having and interview. But do you think there’s any harm, maybe at the end of next week sending an email asking where they are in the process? If they aren’t moving forward with me I’d just like closure. Oh, and their timeframe for hiring was early May if that makes a difference.

    1. fposte*

      I was on board until you got to the fact that they told you their timeframe for hiring was early May. It’s not reasonable to expect to hear from them before then, I’m afraid, and yes, there could be harm in sending in email to ask where they are in a process when they’ve already given you the important information about it: that they don’t expect it to be done for several weeks.

      1. MindOverMoneyChick*

        Whoops, I meant timeframe for having someone start was early May, which I assumes meant they would need to get through the remaining 3 phases of their hiring process (another video interview, some type of assessments and then a panel interview) and then the allow for a two week notice period.

        But you’re still probably right. What do you think about waiting until early May to send a follow up?

  119. Anon for this*

    Anyone working in schools, particularly independent schools: any insights on considering a job change this late in the school year? An opportunity that ticked every box for a role I’d want to move into came up in March and (due to spring break, etc.) I’m just going in for my first real interview on Tuesday after a phone call a couple weeks ago. Things may or may not work out, but I’m dreading telling our head of school and other faculty/admins I work closely with so late in the spring if I do decide to make a change.

    I’ve only ever done totally open job searches before, so I guess I’m struggling with feeling secretive, and with when is too late to let your school know you’re moving on. I’ve already let the school I’m interviewing with know that I need to make a decision in the next couple weeks and that I understand if that doesn’t work with their timing, but is mid-April already a jerk move? I’m the only person in my role and I wear a lot of admin hats too…

    (For additional context: I haven’t signed my contract for next year — I’d been waiting until I could talk with the boss about what my role will look like next year and then this opportunity came up, so I’ve been waiting it out.)

    1. Anon for this*

      (To be clear this is for NEXT school year, I’m not, like, jumping ship for the last month of the year.)

    2. Luisa*

      Oh my gosh, do it. If you have no contract for next year, you have absolutely no obligation to ignore other options that may be out there.

      I have never worked in independent schools, so I can’t speak to what is normal in that context (and I also teach in an area where the school year runs mid-September to mid-June, so April is smack in the middle of hiring season), but in public schools in my district (and the area in general), it’s not uncommon for vacancies to arise close to the end of the year. Sure, administrators want to know who’s leaving and who’s staying as early as possible, but you would not be a jerk for announcing your departure shortly before summer break (or during summer break, honestly!). Every year that I’ve been at my current school (4 years), we’ve had somebody resign over the summer for one reason or another. It’s really not the end of the world, I promise!

    3. Hope*

      If you haven’t signed your contract for next year yet, then this is actually the ideal time to jump ship. If you have yearly contracts, they can’t expect to keep you year after year without the possibility that you might move elsewhere when your contract is up. Depending on when your school year ends/contracts get signed, you could wait as late as the end of May and I doubt it would be a big deal. Related example: I interviewed for a job, hadn’t heard back, assumed I wasn’t getting it, so I went ahead and tentatively signed my contract at the beginning of May for the next school year. Got the job offer literally two days after I’d done that, and there was zero issue with me rescinding the contract because it didn’t go into effect for two more months. They had the whole summer to find a replacement for me, and I imagine it would be similar for you.

      It would be way worse to leave in say, September, when everyone is really in the thick of the new school year.

  120. Lalaroo*

    Should I withdraw my application for a promotion now that I know I’ll have to give up working from home and it’s a deal-breaker?

    The longer story: I’ve applied for a small promotion. Right now I’m able to work from home three days a week, but I just found out that I will have to wait 8 months before being able to work from home if I receive the promotion. I’m planning to go to law school in August, but this isn’t something I’ve told my employer yet since it’s so early. Since the pay raise would only be something like $120/month, it’s not worth it to me to give up working from home given that I’ll be leaving in August.

    Should I go ahead and withdraw my application? I’m worried that if I do so, my superiors will think I have no ambition or care too much about working from home, since from their perspective the eight months will pass and I’ll be able to work from home again, but at a higher salary and with more promotion potential. Will it damage their view of me?

    1. seasonal allegories*

      Right now I’m able to work from home three days a week, but I just found out that I will have to wait 8 months before being able to work from home if I receive the promotion.

      Who told you that? Is it possible they were mistaken, or that this is fully negotiable since this is a promotion and not a new hire waiting out a probationary period?

      1. Lalaroo*

        I was told by my coworker, who asked about it in her interview for this position.

        The work-from-home policy is set firmly in stone – all new hires and newly-promoted employees must wait 8 months before being eligible, along with passing an assessment. The only reason I thought that might not apply is because the job title is the same, just one level up in the series, but it turns out the waiting period does apply.

        1. Arctic*

          Ugh, I totally get why that’s a really good policy for new hires or even a promotion where you’d be learning an entirely different job (so need some direct oversight and training.) But it’s just silly to include it for promotions in a situation where it’s a series not a totally new job.

          1. Lalaroo*

            I COMPLETELY agree. And eight months is a really long time for the entry-level stuff we’re doing.

    2. Kathenus*

      Will the promotion include an interview? Could you ask during the interview – say you’re very interested in the position and advancing in the organization but that the current WFH is important to you and is there any way to move up the timetable for it if you were the successful candidate? If they say there is no way to change it, and it’s a dealbreaker, then I would withdraw graciously. If you do it professionally, and are able to say that WFH was a factor in your decision, I don’t think it will look bad for you at all. But agree that you need to ask outright and discuss the issue as it applies to you specifically, not just to the general policy, in case there is a place for an exception.

      1. Lalaroo*

        I know with 100% certainty that there’s no possibility of an exception, and I think I would look insane for asking in this office, haha.

        The department head basically had work-from-home forced on her – she fought tooth and nail against us being able to do it – so I’m concerned that I’ll be seen as lazy or shallow, etc, for deciding not to go for a promotion because I’d have to come in every day for eight months.

    3. Hope*

      I’d withdraw it. It doesn’t seem worth the trouble. Plus, if you’re not planning to stay past August, they might be more upset about you leaving so soon after a promotion.

  121. Anon for Now*

    Those of you who are managers…how do you deal with a report who feels like they aren’t doing well because of lack of support from management? Especially, when the type of support they are seeking isn’t feasible or even appropriate at their level?

    1. fposte*

      “I understand that you may want me to sit with you while you data enter every day, but that’s not something our workplace can provide. Do you think you can make the position work without that, or should we talk about ways to allow you to transition out of this position?”

      1. Kathenus*

        Great script! Agree 100% to have a conversation about it, with what she’s asking, what is and isn’t feasible, and then finding out if this is the right position for her. Right now it seems that she is defaulting to it being management’s fault she’s not succeeding. The open conversation on this is to put the ball squarely in her court – this is the job, this is the support that is possible for it, is this the right position for you?

        1. Anon for Now*

          It is a good script. I’ve had a similar conversation, although I can’t talk about transitioning her out of the organization without a PIP that takes about six months. And the reality is I can’t change the way this person thinks which is the biggest issue.

          1. fposte*

            Well, you can have the conversation about transitioning to another job–that usually means planning for an amicable departure, not a threat of firing. But if she’s had the conversation and hasn’t improved, sounds like it’s time for that PIP.

  122. Eleanor Shellstrop*

    OK, long stream of thoughts ahead. TL;DR I don’t know what to do with my life/career.

    Starting to think it’s time to consider leaving my first “real person” job (a few years post-college) since it’s not really aligned with my interests or career goals. I work at the front desk at a finance-related office, and while I’m good at it and enjoy the office culture and my coworkers (and have a great manager!), I’m starting to feel like i need to move forward because I have no interest in what the office actually does or any other role in the company. I originally took this job because I was desperate for SOMETHING after moving to a very expensive city for my partner, and I wasn’t having any success interviewing for jobs that I was actually interested in, probably due to my lack of office experience prior to this.
    Problem is, I’m having a lot of trouble defining what I want my actual career to be. I’m interested in a lot of things (music, performing arts, education, social justice, nonprofits, bla bla bla bla) but the main thing that dominates my mind is travel. I’ve lived abroad before and am just itching to do it again, whether with some kind of work/volunteer program, or just traveling somewhere cheap until my money runs out. But I’m in a committed relationship and we live together, and after moving around a lot recently (6 addresses in 6 years!) I’m not sure if I want to take off again. We finally live in a place that we both love, and I’d rather not stick my partner with the rent while I go off and chase my dreams.
    So I thought, maybe it’s time to find a new dream that’s close to home. But I’m just stuck because I don’t know what path to pursue. I feel like I have my hands in too many pots and not enough of them are actually interesting/viable as a career. Maybe I could quit, take a month or two off to travel, and then find a different job, but a) not sure I can afford to pay rent and travel while out of work and b) I worry about how long it will take to find a job if I just quit with nothing lined up. I live in the Bay Area so COL is…..well, you know.
    I guess I’m looking for any words of wisdom? Anyone else who’s struggled to balance an all-consuming travel hunger with a career and relationship commitments?? What has your experience been like?

    1. Eleanor Shellstrop*

      Also, LMK if this would fit more in the weekend free for all. After reading it I realized it was a little less career oriented than maybe is ideal in this thread but not sure (relatively new commenter).

    2. Kendra*

      I haven’t done it, but I have relatives to manage to travel a lot and they have a few different ways of handling it:
      – one of my aunts teaches elementary school so she can travel in the summer, and chooses to be really careful with other parts of her budget so she can afford to do so
      – an uncle travels as part of his job working for the study abroad program at a local college
      – one cousin is in the film industry, where short-term contract jobs are the norm, so he can work in a variety of places and take off large chunks of time when he wants to. This works because he’s very, very good at networking and hustling for contracts

      Also, is there any way to recreate your beloved travel experiences locally? The bay area seems like it would be pretty diverse, so if your favorite part of travel was trying new food or meeting people from different walks of life or something like that, you could try to find ways to scratch that itch in your own city.

    3. ANon..*

      Travel can be an important part of your life, but not at all a part of your career. You can find a job that has a great vacation day policy and a culture that doesn’t frown upon utilizing it (which would be any good workplace!). If you think that a 1- or 2- week vacation every 6 months can scratch the itch, then I would recommend pursuing some of your other interests and checking companies’ PTO policies.

    4. Gumby*

      There are people who are “digital nomads” – they travel basically full-time while distance working. That is definitely something that you’d need to do a LOT of planning for. So one thing you could do is look for jobs which might, eventually, support that lifestyle. If your partner could see that being realistic in 3 or 5 years. (By which time you both could be utterly exhausted with the Bay Area traffic, rent, etc.; I am quickly getting to that point.)

      You could look for local jobs at travel-related businesses. You could look for jobs with good time-off policies. Or work your way into a job that requires business travel but where TPTB don’t mind/encourage you to take a week afterwards in whatever destination you’ve been sent to.

      Barring that, pick one or two of your interests and move in that direction as long as it makes sense. So… arts. Take classes. Volunteer. Look for front-desk positions at arts organizations. Is it something you want to spend more time on to develop a fuller career there? Or will you be happy just ushering for an organization or two to get your fix? Try a new one. It’s easier to play around with your career options when you are starting out, so experiment a bit.

      But also? Keep in mind that lots and lots of people, I’d say most, don’t work at a job that they are passionate about necessarily. They work at something they don’t mind doing, for money, so they can do the stuff they love when they are off the clock. There’s nothing wrong with that.

    5. ContemporaryIssued*

      The real question is not whether you want to travel but would you like to travel as a job. It’s so different from going on a holiday, there is more stress involved (since you actually need to be in places at certain times, need to achieve things, need to keep a professional face which can be surprisingly tiring). Travel as leisure is a break from your normal day-to-day, a chance to relax, explore, learn new things, eat new things, have fun, sleep in.

      Now that you have office experience, why not apply for the jobs you tried applying for previously and then if you get offers, take a job that offers you benefits which allow some flexibility to travel? That was my move when I was 25-29, I stuck around in a kind of pointless job just because there was always a chance for extra (unpaid, sometimes paid) time off to travel. I’ve been to so many amazing places thanks to the flexibility of that job. Now I’m more ready to settle down (though I still use my alloted vacation time to travel a bit).

      And yes, there may be jobs that allow travel and exploration, like being a digital nomad working for yourself, but you need a specific skillset and a certain hustle to get those jobs. I once went out with a guy who did this – 3 months in Thailand, 4 months in India, 2 months in Czech Republic, 1 month in Slovenia.. He said it was great but got lonely. Travel, IMO, is great because it is a break. If it becomes the norm, then it ceases to be special.

  123. Managing Managers*

    I have a situation I’d like a sanity check on. About a year ago I took over a large, ongoing, public facing project. The department manager (Jaime) who used to mange the project kind of became my second manager – he’s included in all my reviews. I am now the public face of the project, responsible for keeping it on track and managing all materials – this includes materials provided by Jaime. The issue I’m running into is that often times when I need material from Jaime he is late getting them to me. I have no authority to delegate his workload or hold him accountable yet I’m still expected to keep the project on track. I’m otherwise really good at managing this project, but it’s starting to get really frustrating being held accountable for issues I have no power to correct. Is it normal to manage a manger? I’m sure we need to have a conversation, but I feel really uncomfortable being critical with him since he is basically my manager. Any advice navigating this is much appreciated.

    1. Kathenus*

      It is very normal to manage a manager, in some way or another, hence the phrase about learning to ‘manage up’. What if you think about it more like having a meeting with Jaime about the project in general, maybe on a weekly (or whatever makes sense) basis. Part of this involves an action plan for the next week – who needs to do what by when. So you’re not being critical with him, you’re working together with him to have more open communication on the project and to set goals for you both (and others if appropriate). If you still have problems, you might be able to do a follow up – Jaime, what’s the best way to communicate with you when I need something time-sensitive for the project? If what they give you isn’t successful, follow up, still professionally – Jaime, the email reminders don’t always work when you’re really busy, is there another way we can communicate better on time-sensitive tasks for the project. Be a proactive, persistent, but professional pain in the butt, that is :).

    2. ..Kat..*

      Talk with your other manager. Tell her about the problem and ask what the best way is to address this so that the project stays on schedule.

  124. PaternityLeaveInducedAnxietyandDepression*

    I work in a department of two reporting to many internal stakeholders. My boss has been on paternity leave for about two months and things are not going well. The company did not have the money to bring in a temp or any competent assistance. HR understands that I’m swamped and has offered some admin support; I delegate what work I can, but there are things I do that no one else can. I’m stressed, my blood pressure has risen to a point that my doctor is talking about medication, I’m not sleeping well, etc. I’m talking to a therapist about anxiety and depression, so I’m trying, but how do I handle things at work? Some of my stakeholders are understanding and “let” me say no to new projects, but others don’t.

    When my boss comes back, do I talk with him about how much this impacted me? We’ve had a good relationship, but very superficial. I’m to the point where everyone is making me mad, I’m crying at my desk daily, and I’m ready to walk. Suggestions on a better way to say, “I get that you need time to get to know your new baby and start your family, but you put me in a pickle and I hate you and I want to burn this place down right now” ?

    1. WellRed*

      When is he due back? What kind of plan did you two put in place before he left? Do you feel you are actually not meeting those expectations or are you being too hard on yourself? Is there a bigger boss? If you are at the point of walking, it’s time to consider having a meeting with him (even via phone) but loop in HR because there may be rules around that.

      1. WellRed*

        Arrg. By having a meeting with “him” I mean the dude on paternity leave if there’s no one else to talk to.

    2. Gumby*

      This really isn’t a ‘dude on leave’ problem. It’s a ‘company not handling staffing’ problem. Who is your acting boss now? *That* is the person you should talk to. About your work load. About what you can realistically handle. Not about your boss’s leave.

      Also? Take sick leave if you need to. Yes, it might put the company in a bad situation. That is not your fault. It is the fault of whoever decided they didn’t need to properly staff things. And remember what they teach you in every first aid class ever – always, always make sure you yourself are safe first. You can’t help other people if you are not in good shape yourself. (That was a terrible, terrible paraphrase, but you get the idea.)

      1. ..Kat..*

        This. Stop killing yourself. Talk with your manager’s manager, tell him what you can reasonably do. Tell him what is going on the back burner. Alison has many posts on how to handle an out of control workload – lots of good scripts. Good luck.

        1. valentine*

          This really isn’t a ‘dude on leave’ problem. It’s a ‘company not handling staffing’ problem.
          Exactly.

          Dial back to a reasonable workload you can complete in 40-45 hours per week. Tell your interim manager what you can do and provide a timetable. Maybe get a health assessment, in case your doctor might insist you stop working altogether. Take off as much time as you can.

          You must not wait for your manager to return and unload on them because it’s inappropriate and they’ll rightly say, “What did interim manager say? What happened when you asked for help and communicated realistic projections?” You can tell them how it went, though, and what you would’ve done differently if you knew then.

  125. Still Standing (yeah yeah yeah)*

    Oh my goodness, I am at BEC mode when it comes to staff meetings. I think my boss gets nervous if a meeting doesn’t last until at least noon, even when we don’t have much to discuss.

    I don’t like talking about hypothetical scenarios.

    I don’t like reminiscing about “the good days” before technology changed everything.

    I didn’t even get a dang bagel this morning!
    #nonprofitlife

    1. Aspiring Chicken Lady*

      There should be a law that irrelevant meetings require bagels, or you get a free pass.

      Also, “intestinal distress” (i.e., I wished I had a bagel) can be reason to step out of a meeting as if you’re going to come back.

      1. Still Standing (yeah yeah yeah)*

        I like the way you think. Please accept my cover letter and resume for the position of Assistant Aspiring Chicken Lady.

    2. ArtsNerd*

      This sounds terrible. My colleagues like to talk through a bunch of hypothetical, if unlikely or not-urgent scenarios, but they also understand that some of us value our time and are amenable to the occasional interruption of “ok, so moving on” or “I really need to get back to X so is there anything else you need me for?”

      Alternately, could you bring a laptop or even a notebook into the meeting and just zone out? I’ve done this in prior jobs pretty successfully.

  126. WellRed*

    Don’t do it! DO NOT INVOLVE personal life like this with work. Think of all the backfired pet sitting/house sitting/personal loan/live with my boss issues we’ve seen here.

  127. Angie*

    I manage an employee who was recently on unpaid medical leave. When he came back, he told me his phone had been turned off, so I shouldn’t rely on contacting him that way (we occasionally text). Should I have offered a loan until payday so he could get his phone turned on? In the moment, I just wanted to acknowledge it and move on – I was worried he was feeling embarrassed (not that I think he should! cash flow problems happen) and it is only a few days. But I don’t want him to think I am callous, especially since I know very well why he is short on cash. It would be too awkward to go back now, but what do you think I should have done?

    1. fposte*

      If your employer offers such a service regularly (or offers work cell phones), you could point him toward that plan. But I’m guessing that they don’t and that you were talking about a personal loan, and I think it’s probably good you didn’t offer. It’s kind of you to be thinking about your employee’s obstacles, though.

    2. CatCat*

      No, you should not have offered a loan. Your heart is in the right place, but you don’t want to be loaning employees money, that’s going to create weird dynamics.

      I think the employer (not you personally), could give him use of a work cell for use in the interim. That could be a great solution for all. But if that’s not feasible, then just address with compassion and professionalism the best way to reach him if it is necessary to reach him outside of work. And how you can expect to hear from him like if he’s going to be out unexpectedly or running late.

    3. Kathenus*

      I think that a work cell loan would be great if possible, as fposte and CatCat mention. But outside of that, he’s on unpaid medical leave, so ideally you shouldn’t be contacting him at all. You can let him know you’re available if he needs anything, but if he’s on unpaid leave he shouldn’t have to think about keeping in touch with work until he’s back at work or on paid time.

      1. fposte*

        I read Angie’s post as him just coming back from unpaid leave but having had to turn the cell phone off while he was out due to finances; totally agree that if he’s not back at the workplace he shouldn’t be contacted anyway.

    4. The Man, Becky Lynch*

      Nope.

      If he needs a draw or a loan, that’s his business and he needs to ask for it if it’s something that’s on his radar. It’s overstepping to offer it as an employer in my experience.

      Also who’s to say that his phone is on the priorities list for his next paycheck? He’s been away for awhile, he probably has other bills right now, which is why he wasn’t able to pay his cell bill. It may be longer than just a few days until he pays for it to be turned on, since he’s digging himself out of a hole, you know?

  128. Watry*

    Before I ask my questions, a piece of context. There are legally-imposed turn around times on our output, three days. And, because of the sort of information we’re dealing with, a messed up redaction or release can lead to me being fired and the department being sued.
    1) We’ve had up to three people out a day lately, one a team with five people even considering the swing shift person, and one supervisor. This is not tenable. The supervisor has changed the leave request policy because it’s so untenable, and she’s doing her best to make it bearable for us. I don’t blame her. That said, I need a way to frame this to myself so I don’t feel responsible for what other people aren’t here to do.

    2) Related question: even when everybody is here, I’m mentally exhausted by 3 or 4 (8-5 shift). Any advice on how to pace myself better?

  129. Restructure Hellion*

    FTS!
    We have a mandatory six hour workday tomorrow. Thank goddess I’m non-exempt.
    Posted last week about recruiters – are they a viable option for mid-career individual contributors? I am in banking, and caught up in a merger.

    1. irene adler*

      Recruiters are a viable option. Just understand that they work for the prospective employer- not for you.
      They can be an asset when they believe you are a good fit for a position they are recruiting for. They will help to present you in a way to meet what their client is looking for.

      But, if you aren’t a fit for any of the positions they are trying to fill, then they won’t give you much attention. In which case, you are on your own in finding a job.

      It’s better if you can find a recruiter that has experience in your field.

  130. Thursday Next*

    I don’t understand—why wouldn’t you share the names of babysitters other than the one you’ve booked?

    1. CM*

      Yeah. I wouldn’t share the one that’s booked if you don’t want to, but I’d pick one or two of the ones that aren’t booked and share those. I get that they’re a scarce resource and there’s a fear that she’ll gobble up all the babysitters in the future once she knows their names but… probably not? Probably it will be okay?

      Supposing that you do that and it doesn’t solve her problem and she still bugs about sharing your sitter, I think it’s fine to say that you really empathize with her situation but you’re just not able to do it.

    2. Rusty Shackelford*

      This. I know you say they’re busy, but if you give her their contact info (assuming they approve) and they tell her they’re not available… well, you’ve at least shown her that you’ll attempt to help her.

    4. MissDisplaced*

      Yeah, I don’t really get that part. Isn’t that up to the sitter to decide if they want to take the job or not?

  131. Anon for this one*

    I was laid off from my previous job, right on the heels of asking for a reasonable accommodation for attention issues I was having in the CEO’s much prized, very noise, incredibly distracting, open office environment. The attention issues stemmed from chronic anxiety and depression, exacerbated by working in a noisy fish bowl. One other person was laid off at the same time I was; she had just informed management that she was pregnant and would need time for prenatal care and, ultimately, maternity leave.

    My attorney filed a complaint with the EEOC. We got my employer’s response to the complaint last week, and it was vicious. Allegedly, I broke the conference room door when I was notified of the layoff, I was rude and insulting to coworkers (I allegedly called one coworker fat and another old; we’re all still good friends and I heard none of this from them), I was insubordinate…. The other woman and I were laid off because we were the two lowest performers on the team, with examples that were allegedly egregious violations but weren’t ever memorialized in two outstanding performance reviews or even a PIP.

    There was stuff that was just flat out not true. For example, they allege that I was so disruptive that I had to be escorted from the building without being allowed to gather my things, so they had to messenger my wallet, my keys, and my personal daytimer to my house. Other employees literally saw me in the parking garage, keys in hand, after I was laid off. They asked me where I was going (I was laid off at 8:30 a.m. when people were still arriving to work). How did I allegedly get home if I didn’t have my wallet and keys till 7:00 that night when they messengered them over?

    I spent a couple of days feeling like I’d been punched in the stomach. My attorney had warned me that their attorney was a total SOB and would drag me through the mud. He wasn’t kidding.

    I will probably be issued a right to sue letter, and I’m having a hard time working up an enthusiasm for pursuing this further, even though my manager made clearly ignorant and illegal statements about my “mental illness.”

    Has anyone ever been through this? How do I feel good again? The impact of reading so much inflammatory, ignorant, and untrue stuff about my self has been absolutely devastating.

    1. Temperance*

      Do you have a therapist? Can you work it out with him or her, if so?

      This says more about them than you.

    2. Jadelyn*

      Just remember: they’re attacking you because they’re scared. It’s not in any way a reflection on you and who you actually are or how you are as an employee – you’re in a position to damage them by making their illegal actions public and taking them to court over it, so they’re lashing out to try to scare you off. For you to give in and not pursue further is exactly what they’re hoping for.

      I don’t know if you’re like me and are fueled by spite, but if you are, keep focusing on that aspect of it: they are trying to scare you off. Don’t let them.

      Regardless of how motivating you find spite, keep reminding yourself that you don’t need to internalize criticism that is clearly made in bad faith and composed of outright lies. They’re a child throwing a tantrum, nothing more, and you should give their jabs exactly as much emotional weight as you would the words of an angry toddler lashing out because they want a piece of candy.

      1. Anon for this one*

        Thank you for responding. I’ve learned since I left that this company has a bad reputation for how it treats its employees, which was hard to discerned from online reviews because it has operations in so many cities (the big issues are, no surprise, at HQ where I worked). I feel fortunate to have landed in a much better place.

    3. The Man, Becky Lynch*

      They’re bullying cowards. They’re breaking the law and they’re going to throw everything in the world at you because they want to get away with it. This is what crooks do, they are criminals, they are not good people. They will lie.

      This is a scare tactic. You work with your lawyer, you let the lawyer guide you through this mud slinging battleground. You are going to be okay.

      They’re also using your mental state against you, they know your anxious and they think by doing this you’ll back down and leave them alone.

      I just read the report about the 2018 fiscal year for EEOC complaints. You did the right thing by filing the complaint, don’t ever regret doing that. They can make up whatever stories they want, try to laugh at their audacity if you’re able to. That’s always been my go-to for when someone is being so wildly over the top.

      They have to prove all these things, they may make up documentation even, be prepared for that. Do you have copies of your performance reviews? That’s a reason to keep them. Those are your record that they’re liars.

      1. Anon for this one*

        Thank you for responding. No, I don’t have copies of my performance reviews (which were online), and I was marched out so quickly I didn’t have time to get copies. I would not be at all surprised if they magicked up some alleged documentation.

    4. Kathenus*

      Agree with Jadelyn that they are scared, but they are also doing this because it sometimes works. They react this over the top to do exactly what it’s doing to you – make you want to give up and not pursue it anymore. I’m with Jadelyn that this would become about the principle of the thing and I’d fight it for that reason alone. I did that once many years ago, and I’d do it again if needed. Only you can decide for yourself, but they came after you like this to try to get you to drop this, not because they don’t think you can win. And DOCUMENT, DOCUMENT, DOCUMENT. All those things you listed above, document every detail, including witnesses. Not sure if you can ask your coworker to give you their witness version of you with the keys, etc. – ask your lawyer before reaching out to anyone, but it sounds like you and the other employee might also want to band together on this – strength in numbers. Good luck.

      1. Anon for this one*

        Thank you for responding. The other employee, in order to get her severance pay, immediately signed a release which says she can’t sue, so we can’t go in this together.

        1. The Man, Becky Lynch*

          I bet that “release” is bogus, she needs to have a lawyer look at it. It’s difficult to allow people to sign away their right to seek a discrimination lawsuit. That’s how you get frauds paying off people and the court doesn’t like it!

    5. ArtsNerd*

      I’m so sorry you have to go through this. As other people have mentioned, they’re trying to discourage you from exercising your rights (and if they’re successful, that’s not a failure on your part. It’s on them.)

      On the plus side, what they’re saying is provably false. If you sue, your performance reviews are discoverable in deposition. You can ask for the invoice for the conference room door repair to prove that you did throw a tantrum and break it. You can ask your colleagues to attest that you had your belongings with you when you left.

      This is a rare-ish situation in which you actually have a strong case, so even though they’re being vicious, they’re also going to get burned hard by the consequences at some point since this seems to be SOP.

      In terms of managing the emotional effects, therapy is great for everyone but especially in this kind of situation where a trained professional can help you develop a set of tools for navigating it. Something else more concrete is to frame it as though they were saying your green skin is ugly — something that’s so untrue and separate from you that it can’t possibly sting.

      Because it is untrue and separate from you. They didn’t pull this from reality in any way.

      Your colleagues won’t believe your employer and if they’re (proveably!) defaming you externally, in a way that affects your future employment, well that’s also generally frowned upon and met with extremely harsh comeuppance.

      1. MayLou*

        “It is untrue and separate from you. They didn’t pull this from reality in any way.” This is so important and also so hard to hold onto! If your brain is already good at feeding you a negative narrative (anxiety and depression classics), then this sort of gaslighting is perfectly crafted to be as damaging as possible to your self esteem. They are being abusive and wildly unprofessional and I honestly can’t see how it could end in any way other than extremely badly for them.

        I had a much less serious, but still emotionally harmful, experience with some similar elements and it’s taken me several years to get over the little voice that said “But what if they were right and I was actually just terrible at my job and not emotionally resilient enough to work?”. Therapy has played a huge part in that. So has getting back on the horse, or at least a small, calm pony being led by a halter, and experiencing the counterbalancing sensation of being recognised as competent and productive.

  132. curly sue*

    A professionalism question for faculty / academics, since our work environment is vastly different than most offices. I teach in a performing arts faculty as well, so the context is different from Commerce or Law.

    I’m getting a new laptop and due to Circumstances it’s black rather than silver. I’m vaguely annoyed by this, but it is what it is. So I started looking at laptop decals and came across a brilliant HAL 9000 one on DecalGirl. (Universal Laptop Skin 9000, for the curious.)

    I’m torn. It seems to me that, given that I work almost entirely with theatre geeks and academic theatre geeks, I should be able to get away with a little Kubrick-referential whimsy. (I’ll admit that my perception may be a bit skewed, since my department halls are usually full of mannequins and props, but there you go.)

    On the other hand, is any sign of whimsy totally unprofessional? I mostly use my laptop in the office or alone in the library when I’m on campus, but I’ll probably have it at conferences and meetings at some point in time.

    1. fposte*

      That would fly just fine in my department. It’s not even that overtly whimsical–I think a lot of people will just think it’s a design thing rather than a reference. As long as people there aren’t super-prissy about decals on university computers or anything on laptops, I wouldn’t see a problem.

      1. curly sue*

        It’s a personal laptop so no worries about university property there. (Yes, I could requisition a computer for myself, but it’s such a pain in the neck to get even a crappy machine that it’s easier just to use my own.) I may just bite the bullet, stop overthinking, and do it. Life’s too short not to have some fun.

          1. curly sue*

            It’s less ‘will IT get up my nose for this’ and more ‘will it degrade people’s perceptions of my ability,’ which is admittedly unlikely given the audience. (I have to admit that the idea of having HAL on my desk as I proctor exams is a selling point.)

            1. Admin of Sys*

              Academia IT here – and we have decals on our work laptops. The only time I’d think a decal would be unprofessional on your personal laptop would be if it was of something work inappropriate, or if was tremendously cutesy kawaii. A Hal reference would earn you points most of the places I’ve worked in various colleges.

    3. Delta Delta*

      I’m a lawyer and I take my computer to court sometimes. I would not bat an eye at a HAL decal. If someone asks you to take it off, naturally you have to say, “I’m afraid I can’t do that, Dave.”

      1. curly sue*

        That’s awesome.

        I ordered it. New thinkpad arrives next week, the decal should be here within a few days of that. I’m pretty stoked now.

        1. valentine*

          I think it’s fine. I love HAL.

          A David had a computer snafu and I said, “I can’t do that, Dave,” but he didn’t get it.

    4. AcademiaNut*

      That would be totally fine in my field. Github stickers are particularly popular, but I’ve seen various non-work ones, and one wistful grad student who had an Apple sticker in the appropriate place on their (non Apple) laptop.

  133. Jessen*

    No advice needed, just a rant – I’m trying to sign up for community college classes (cybersecurity degree) and despite advertising for adults going back to school, they’re making it really amazingly hard for people who can’t show up between 8:30 and 4:30 on a weekday.

    1. Me*

      Have you checked online reputable colleges? They’re quite literally made for workign adults. Just stay away from for-profits and I recommend one associated with a good state college system (there’s lots). They often don’t charge out-of-state tuition. If anything they might have a special virtual college tuition rate.

      1. Jessen*

        I have but they’re a lot more expensive and I’m really just looking to get a certificate to start. The actual classes are available online or in the evenings pretty easily, it’s just that the advising office and all that sort of stuff insists on meeting in person and doesn’t really have evening or weekend hours.

        1. CastIrony*

          I got my medical administrative assistant certificate through Careerstep.com. The price was about 3k for a six-month course (without extensions), but if you have certain benefits, they’ll help with the cost or cover the whole course and NHA certification tests!

    2. Enough*

      Daughter had the opposite problem in graduate school. They were geared to full time day workers. She worked nights. Fortunately it was part time so she would have off the night(s) she had classes.

      1. Jessen*

        The actual class times seem to be ok, it’s just that it appears to be impossible to get into them unless you go to the advising office that is only open from 8:30am to 4:30pm monday through friday several times first!

    3. Policy wonk*

      Do they have more than one campus? When my son attended the local community college he found that the various locatios specialized, both by major and by hours. The evening classes were available at the campus that was less accessible by public transportation, but doable if you had a car. Of course, that
      meant he was driving to class in rush hour traffic.

  134. Trinity Beeper*

    If you had to choose between a job that would get you closer to the skillset you want to have, versus a job that would get you closer to the industry you want to be in, which would you pick? I just received an offer for a job that would get me closer to the industry I want to work in, but I started learning these new skills at my current job about 5 months ago. Ideally someday, I’ll get to have the role I want in the industry I want, but for now I’m looking at how to get there.

    1. Jadelyn*

      It would depend on how difficult it is to get that skillset or get into that industry. If they’re skills that you can learn at a lot of different jobs, but the industry is really hard to break into, go for the job that gets you closer to the industry. If the skills are rare but the industry has multiple pathways in, go for the job that gets you those rare skills. If it’s equal, look at other factors, like salary, location, etc.

      1. Trinity Beeper*

        Thanks, that’s a helpful way to think about it! The skillset is a little squishy because it involves both tech and soft skills. It has bootcamps dedicated to it, but it’s definitely more valuable if you’re able to get it from actual work experience.

        I’ve applied for multiple entry-level jobs in this industry in the past, but never got them – this isn’t an entry level job, but it is a bit of a step away from the skills I want to be using. It’d be a fun job, though. My degree is in this field, actually.

        The new job pays slightly more and is significantly closer…but I do really like my current manager, and a known quantity is appealing.

        1. Jadelyn*

          Given that context, I’d probably stick with the current job for the skills over the possible new job. You’ve got a degree in that other field, which will help you to make the jump regardless of when you do it. With the skillset you’re working on, you might be a more appealing candidate for non-entry-level roles in that industry down the line. You’ve got a good working situation where you are, and just personally I’ll usually stick with a known good work environment over a *slight* pay bump and unknown environment.

    2. LQ*

      In addition to Jadelyn’s very good points I’d say that generally skills are harder to acquire than industry knowledge (though not always). I’d also really seriously consider which fades faster. If you had tech skills and wanted a tech job in…government (slow to change) then you would want skills and jump from skills to industry with skills. But you may be looking at an industry where those skills fade fast so think about that. If you have to sort of shuffle back and forth the loss of which of these is going to be harder on you?

  135. matrose*

    That’s a quick one:

    My boss sometimes asks me about my opinion about things. When at first I was reluctant to provide negative feedback he told me he saw it as my obligation to be critical, so I started to be a bit more… expressive?

    Lately, I got an email from him: “Is this description of the Huacaya alpaca ok? Is it complete?”.

    My reply was: “Yes, it seems quite complete”.

    He then gave me negative feedback on that. He claimed by using the words “seem” and “quite” I made him feel I believed I can judge whether something is complete or not, which I’m not.

    I’m a bit surprised.

    How would you interpret it?

    1. Jadelyn*

      …I would interpret that as “your manager is weird and nitpicky and will always find *something* to latch onto and criticize you about, since he asked you if you thought something was complete and then chastised you for acting like you think you can judge if something is complete – ie, the exact task he asked you to do.”

      AKA “Your boss sucks and isn’t going to change”.

    2. CatCat*

      I made him feel I believed I can judge whether something is complete or not, which I’m not.

      Wait… what. He asked you whether something is complete when he doesn’t think you’re in a position to determine that?

      Sounds like a bizarro mind game to me.

      1. Trinity Beeper*

        Since that’s the case, just act innocent about it: “since you asked me to judge this, but also have stated that I’m not qualified to judge this, I’m not sure how you want me to proceed to be the most helpful. In future cases, what kind of input are you looking for?”

    3. Turtlewings*

      I would interpret it as your boss is an irrational person who can’t be pleased. He specifically asked if you thought it was complete and then judged you for literally doing what he’d just asked you to do. Run away.

    4. fposte*

      That is bizarre on two fronts. One, I thought the objection was going to be that you were too measured in your language, given his focus on the softening phrases, and two, that he asked you the specific question and then considered you overconfident for answering it.

      I suspect that your boss just is a PITA who is going to find fault with your input whatever you do. Sorry.

    5. LGC*

      …you seem like you’re quite reasonable. He doesn’t.

      I’d interpret your answer on its face – that based off of what you know his description was comprehensive. It sounds like he was looking for validation of his authority, though, which…is really on him.

      Has he done this before? It seems odd for this to be the first time he’s done this unless you’re new.

    6. Serin*

      He can’t be trusted to deal with opinions via email.

      Try it in person or on the phone, but it’s possible he can’t be trusted to deal with opinions, period.

    7. CM*

      This is some Regina George mind game stuff.

      It’s possible he meant it as a rhetorical question — like, “Obviously this is not complete, wouldn’t you agree?” but, even if that’s the case, it’s still a really rude way to go about talking about it.

    8. Rebeck*

      Is he British or Australian? There’s this weird thing I’ve never understood (as someone American who grew up in Australia) where the word “quite” is interpreted as insulting. It… caused a few arguments and misunderstandings with friends, growing up, and I discovered that many Brits bring the same connotations to the word. I don’t know whether it also applies to New Zealanders although that’s possible.

  136. Jadelyn*

    How do I politely remind my former manager that she’s not my manager anymore, and if she needs something from me she needs to send me a request and not an assignment?

    I used to report to Anne, the HR Manager, who reported to Damien, the HR Director. We reorganized our HR function and Anne now reports to a different HR Director (we have 3 for different functional areas), and I report directly to Damien. Damien, Anne, and I all still work out of the same location at our west coast HQ with four other individual contributors on the HR team who all report to Anne; the rest of HR, including the other two Directors, are in our east coast HQ.

    Anne made a bunch of noises about “oh no, I’m going to miss having you as one of my reports!” when we did the reorg, although tbh I was incredibly pleased to be out from under her, but I hid that well enough and made the appropriate “I know, but it’s not like I’m moving away, I’ll still be here!” noises in response.

    And now, there have been several times where she just…assigns things to me the way she would if I reported to her. She sort of rubber-stamps Damien’s name onto those “requests” (like, “Please work with Damien to see where you can fit this in your schedule to be done by [date]”) and he doesn’t question it because they’ve worked together for years and he’s very used to her handling all the details of staff under them both. But the way she phrases these “requests” is not the way you’d make a request of someone outside your own staff – the whole tone is one of a manager assigning something to a person who reports to her.

    I can’t imagine her sending an email to one of the individual contributors on one of the other HR sub-teams back at the east coast HQ saying “I need you to do [thing] by [date], please work with your manager to fit it into your schedule by then” without getting an incredible amount of blowback for it, and she’s too politically canny for that, so why the hell is she doing it with me??? (probably just because I’m here, and it’s a dynamic that was well-established for several years before this, so it’s habit. Either that, or she’s genuinely upset that her team shrunk a little and is trying to feel in-control by acting like I still report to her?)

    So I’m looking for advice or scripts on how to approach her, or maybe Damien, to put a stop to this and get her to treat me with the same respect she would offer to any other individual contributor who doesn’t report to her. It’s not like I’m going to refuse to give her what she needs, anyway – I just want her to send requests, not assignments.

    1. ANon..*

      If she’s copying in Damien and he seems to be fine with this, I’m…not sure there’s much you can do. If you really want, though, you can ask Damien! “Anne’s been giving me assignments just as she had before the reorg. Since I’m no longer reporting to her, I just wanted to check in with you. If there’s any way we should be handling this differently, let me know!”

      1. Jadelyn*

        I honestly think he’s not even reading the emails from her when she says that stuff. I get the strong impression he’s letting that coast based on the fact that that’s how their relationship has always worked in the past, but in the past they were both over the same group of people, so the context is different now. Maybe that’s what I should be addressing when I talk to him.

        (it doesn’t help that I’m fast approaching the BEC point with Anne, and part of the problem is that her definition of “priority” is wildly different from mine. She wants me to urgently work in a project…about printing out some documents from our onboarding system so our team admin can file them. Meanwhile, I have our annual diversity report, which goes to all our senior leadership and gets used in our grant applications and external funding work, due next week, and it’s time for the annual total compensation statements which are personalized to each staff person and are supposed to go out by the end of this month, plus several high-level requests from various members of senior leadership for various specialized and ad hoc reports. Printing some stuff for personnel files is, to put it mildly, not even on my to-do list just yet.)

        1. Gumby*

          Maybe instead of approaching Damien about her assigning tasks to you, with due dates!, ask about prioritizing. Sort of a “this is my list of priorities, how should I fit Anne’s request in? I would need to put off [super important thing] to meet her deadline.”

    2. ..Kat..*

      First talk with Damien about whether you should even be doing this work. If not, ask him to deal Anne. And ask him how you should be responding to Anne when she directly assigns work to you.

  137. Carol Danvers*

    Hey everyone,

    I commented a few weeks ago about a co-worker chewing loudly who was driving me nuts. I appreciated the feedback and the perspective – that it is 100 percent my problem and not hers. A couple things have happened since then, firstly that there has been a reconfiguration of searing arrangements to accommodate a coworker returning from a short-term disability leave, which means I now sit kitty-corner to loud chewer rather than directly beside her. I’m also in therapy for unrelated reasons, and I’ve been discussing strategies with my therapist (shocker, but part of my annoyance with the chewing also had to do with some unrelated work issues she and I have had, which have also been resolved) to deal with misophonia and other annoyances generally. She’s also been off sick a lot in the last couple weeks, so the office has been quiet anyways. Thank you to everyone who commented and offered perspective – as a young professional, it’s helpful to have somewhere like this to ask questions.

      1. Carol Danvers*

        It would be tricky because I’d be farther from the team, so I suspect it wouldn’t work. I think what’s happening now is a decent solution.

  138. Aeu*

    Hi all. I don’t know how to respond to a contractor who is lying about specifics that were given to them.
    I’m a project manager and my company hires contractors to carry out projects with specific guidelines. I asked the contractor via e-mail to correct a project that had some mistakes in it. They replied that my company didn’t provide guidelines. This is obviously not true and I have e-mails from last year proving that.
    My doubt is how to respond to them. I don’t think the best way is to say that they’re lying. In the e-mails are copied all of our bosses. My boss has good knowledge of the project but doesn’t know what material we give contractors. I want to keep a good relationship with the contractor and I want them to just do the job with the right specifics. I suspect that they’re just trying to delay the timeline and are using excuses.
    I don’t care about being right, and my boss trusts me. I’m going to send them the guidelines again, but what do I say?

    1. fposte*

      I’d say “Lucinda, we’ve got a record of a January 5 email to you with the guidelines, but I’m always happy to resend if you can’t find the initial mailing; they’re attached.” Treat it like they misplaced it (which could even be true).

      1. Existentialista*

        I agree – respond to them as if they made an understandable mistake, so that you maintain the high ground.

        I learned this approach from reading lots of Miss Manners’ column in the Washington Post – she advised reacting to behavior like that with as much charity as you could muster, and say, “Of course you didn’t mean to misplace them! These things happen to everyone. Here you go, here is a copy of my email when I sent them to you before.”

        1. Sloan Kittering*

          Or could have legit been mislaid, deleted, sent to spam etc. I’d always prefer to act like I believe this is what happened rather than that somebody is lying to my face.

    2. The Ginger Ginger*

      I’d just attach the old email with the specs to your reply on the current chain so everyone can see it. Say something like “Here’s what I have in my records for what was originally sent over on this project. Do you have any questions or concerns about what was in this? I’m happy to chat through it again.”

      It’s not super confrontational, but it does show that they should have had everything and you’re not down for lying. I’d honestly be less concerned about how the contractor reacts (assuming your pleasant and professional as well as firm) than making sure your bosses and team knows that nothing was missed or overlooked or mishandled at the beginning of the project. The liar can go pound sand :)

      I’d also try to get an idea of timeline. “Since these are the requirements, what’s the timeline for applying the requested changes?” You don’t have to add “YOU HAD THE SPECS THE WHOLE TIME WHAT HAVE YOU BEEN DOING????” Everyone will know that it’s on the contractor once they see the original email chain. Ignore laying blame/designating fault in the current exchanges, it’s counter productive at the moment. Focus on timeline and “how do we fix it/get what we need”. Show your team you’re on top of it and moving forward. And once it’s all sorted maybe think about if there was a missed opportunity to have checked in with this contractor sooner/more often to have got further in front of them going off the rails (may not be the case, but post-mortems are never a bad thing). Maybe you can impress your bosses by laying out a plan to prevent similar problems in future.

  139. Amber Rose*

    Small rant:
    I’m sick.
    I’m at work.

    I don’t want to be sick at work. I’m gonna spread this cold around. But I can’t afford time off.

    My head is too fuzzy to deal with this.

    1. Goose Lavel*

      Make sure you cough on the boss, their keyboard and mouse for good measure.

      Just kidding

  140. Existentialista*

    For all you Managers who used to be Individual Contributors, do you ever miss your old hands-on role?

    I manage a team of three who all do what I used to do, and this week I felt a sharp pang of envy when one of my team was showing me a new subject area that he’s learning, and the processes and reporting documents that he’s creating for the business.

    In my own role, what I’m learning is how to project “Executive Presense” and how to manage relationships with other teams and senior leadership, but on that day I really missed my old role, where my job was to put my head down and do stuff.

    1. Trinity Beeper*

      Not a manager, but my manager has expressed this before. One thing she’s offered is to help take on certain heads-down tasks when a team member is overwhelmed and won’t be able to get everything done. It’s meant to be an offer you can take in a pinch, not something to rely on. She always seems kind of excited to try the work, too. Is there any work you could offer to help with like this?

      1. Existentialista*

        Thanks, Trinity Beeper. In fact, I do have a few tasks that I’m pitching in to do right now. Your reply reminds me to appreciate them!

    2. LQ*

      Not technically a manager but my role is learning exactly what you are so yes. A lot.
      I recently got the opportunity to do something heads down and learny and it was great. Sometimes it’s small but I do grab a few of the just do the work things, though I can feel those skills rusting up which makes me sad too. I try to think of the skills I’m learning as a different kind of hands-on but I haven’t fully mastered that yet either.

  141. Rose*

    I’m kind of going nuts figuring this out and could use some help. So I got laid off from my job like 2 months ago. Last Friday I was offered a 6 month temp gig at a company I used to work at (not where I was just laid off). On Monday I filled out the paperwork and they called and said they wanted me to start next Tuesday (that being said nothing is in writing).

    Also on Monday I got a call from a different staffing agency saying they wanted me to interview for a job that’s more directly aligned with my past jobs and pays a lot more than the other temp gig. They said this is temp to hire with an incredibly high chance of going permanent.

    So I did the interview and the job seems super boring and the office was kind of stagnant. Didn’t seem like it would be great. HR called me back the next day and said they want to hire me. The staffing agency said they plan to make me permanent within a month or so and they could give me benefits in the meantime.

    On the one hand, the job seems like a bust. On the other hand, it’s permanent and has benefits/really good pay.

    What do you guys think?

    1. Me*

      Presuming you are like most people and do not have the financial means to be unemployed for an indefinite amount of time.

      I would take it. A boring job with pay and benefits to tide me over while I find something more what I want? Absolutely. A place that I thought was toxic or soul crushing I’d pass, but boring? I can do boring to pay the bills,

      1. valentine*

        I would take the possibly boring job because it’s better all-round and helps me avoid returning to a former workplace. If it is boring, maybe it’s still doable and you’ll find that leaving work at work gives your life more breathing room.

    2. Kettles*

      Can you ask the agency to move up their timeline or put their offer in writing? Do you have anything to fall back on if things don’t work out? I’m super reluctant to tell you to take something you hate but next month could turn into the twelfth of never.

    3. The Man, Becky Lynch*

      I thought my current job was a boring bust as well but took it because of the benefits and the other option was working a contract labor job, without the backing of being a permanent employee.

      I would go with your gut, boredom can be cured by finding another job down the road, uncertainty of your future can cause a lot more stress in my experience. However this is a very personal thing as well too of course!

      1. ArtsNerd*

        Whereas I would struggle so hard with the boredom that I’d go back to the temporary gig if I could swing the finances. It’s definitely a Know Thyself situation.

  142. Deryn*

    Having a rough week. No huge issues, just burnt out hard. I’m leaving my position in August to attend grad school, which I’m really excited about! But work has just become a slog – I think I’m just ready to get going on the next chapter. I love my work, I love my boss, but I have two challenging employees that I supervise (which is a different issue) and we have just launched a new project which has created a lot of small unforeseen headaches while we adjust (as new projects often do). I’m hoping it’s just an off week, but I’ve been miserable. Realistically, I think I’m just mentally and emotionally checked out. I took this job to bolster my CV and eventually go back to school, which is really common for this type of position, and it’s accomplished that. If money and health insurance weren’t an issue, I might peace out a few months early and have a “summer break” but as it stands, I’ve got three and a half months left. Two bright spots – the beginnings of projects don’t last forever, and one of the aforementioned employees is leaving about six weeks before me. I get great feedback about my work, and my boss is super supportive, and I’m trying not to let these other issues bog me down, but I’m still feeling discouraged.

    Not really sure if I’m looking for advice on how to hang in there or just commiseration. Either way… ugh!

  143. Kettles*

    How should I handle a mothering co-worker? I know she means well but I’m getting frustrated. Sometimes it’s innocuous, like telling me to be careful with a tray. Other times she has rubbed my arm (I don’t like being touched, especially not by strangers / coworkers). The other day she called me ‘little one’. I am in my thirties. I am engaged. The other day I covered up my greys with hair dye.

    I do look younger than I am so any tips to alleviate that would be great, but also any ideas to handle this would be great, as I’m on the verge of snapping at her and hints haven’t worked.

    1. fposte*

      How young you look is irrelevant to the inappropriateness of the mothering. But your choices aren’t simply silence or snapping! When touched you can jump and say “Jane, wow, that was startling; please don’t touch me.” With the tray comment, you can ignore it; you could also, in some relationships, say jokingly “Are you sure I shouldn’t bash it against the furniture, Jane?” or “I’ve been fully certified in tray operation for several decades now.” For “little one”–and holy crap–you can just say, “I think pet names at work can be a problem–please do just call me Lavinia.”

      1. Kettles*

        Thanks fposte – i’d been ignoring it and knitting my brows but ‘little one’ was a step too far. It’s good to have the reminder that the choices are not tolerating it / being rude.

        Especially given that I’ve just been promoted and am going through the usual ‘looks young’ rigmarole of proving to multiple clients that I’m not a 21 year old new grad. (This is a Thing; I actually stepped away from a client facing role previously because I was fed up of it taking several weeks before they took me seriously). So I might be a bit more sensitive to this issue at the moment than I usually am.

    2. Paige*

      Maybe a gentle “hey [name], I like you as a coworker, not a mom.”

      I’ve also mildly told people “I am older than you think I am.” They always want to start guessing my age, but it’s never offended anyone.

      It’s okay to visibly startle/recoil when a coworker touches you, though. No need to sugarcoat your reaction to that. And it’s probably okay to openly cringe a little at “little one,” (or say “um, did you…just call me ‘little one?’) because that is a hella creepy thing to say to an adult.

      1. Kettles*

        Thank you for the validation! My eyebrows shot up and I looked visibly horrified but it was so far out of what i’m used to that I sort of blue screened.

        I’ve casually done the “I’m much older than I look,” before and with reasonable people it works very well.

        1. valentine*

          Since she’s ignoring hints, no need to be gentle. Just tell her you’ve noticed an infantilizing pattern and she needs to stop.

          Younger workers are not inherently less worthy of respect. I think there was and is room for you to push back on that. Prepare responses for “But you look like a baby/remind me of my (grand)daughter,” etc. Are they doing this to men? Anyone getting called sport or young man? It’s sexist and you can say so. The candy-dish coworker had really great comebacks for the person who wants the dish hidden.

          1. Kettles*

            You’re right. There are younger men in the office who don’t get treated this way.

            I’ve been thinking about it and there’s three main elements; my pride; needing on a practical level not to be undermined; and also just being really creeped out. It makes me feel quite viscerally… irrational. Like I wonder if other people would just laugh it off?

    3. Aurion*

      I feel you so hard. An external contact (sales rep from an important partner of my company) called me, on multiple occasions, good girl. I think my eyebrows shot into the stratosphere with that one.

      Enraged growls of solidarity.

      1. Kettles*

        Thanks Aurion! As I said to Valentine I have this underlying feeling that my irritation is irrational; it’s really lovely to hear that it’s not.

    4. Garland not Andrews*

      My response would be very direct. The arm rubs would get a chilly “Please don’t touch me”, comments something similar. However “Little One” would get the coldest frostiest “EXCUSE ME! I am not now nor will I ever be your little one. I’d thank you to stop infantilizing me.”
      It seems over the top, but it will make an impression.

      1. Kettles*

        This is the thing, because she’s so ‘nice’ and I’m perceived as being somewhat grumpy I feel like this could backfire. “Ew, Kettles is being such a bitch to that nice old lady!” Whereas what… the nice old lady who creeps me out and treats me like I’m five, up to and including praising me for mopping up my coffee when I spilled it?

  144. IL to CA*

    Remote workers, how do you stay engaged with your team and know what’s going on? Especially those of you on teams where some people are in the office. I moved out of state and agreed to work remotely for a few weeks while my replacement is hired. I am learning that I hate remote work! I consider myself introvert-leaning, but I feel so disconnected from the office. Not a huge deal in this case because I’m ending my employment there anyway and it’s short-term, but I’m curious how you remote workers do it!

    1. Kettles*

      Slack is good, but when I was working from home I went to social meet-ups in my field. It gave me regular social connection, a few long term friends and a couple of professional opportunities.

      1. BeeGee*

        Definitely be sure to be responsive to emails and calls promptly, organize calls with coworkers in order to go over or check up on long term project requirements so you can spend more time working and less time with small questions. Definitely utilize slack or other project organizers so it’s easier to reference and update group projects. If you need more frequent discussions with coworkers or bosses, work on setting up a recurring time block on calendars in order to catch up and ask questions, especially if that person is typically less available in a normal work day to respond to an occasional call or email.

  145. LittleBeans*

    One of my superiors, Anne, is badly misrepresenting me in emails to other people. Anne is not my boss but is at the same level as my boss in the organization. She has now, on two occasions, sent emails to other (important) people that mischaracterize something I have said to her.

    In the first instance, I said that a proposal to assign red shirts to women and green shirts to men was not a good plan because it shouldn’t be based on gender, and I recommended having just one color. She then sent an email saying “According to LittleBeans, we can’t have two color shirts so we need to pick one”. She left out the entire context for why I had recommended the change, and ignored the possibility that other solutions were possible (we could have 2 colors and everyone picks their own, etc.).

    In the second instance, I wanted to push back against a politically-complicated proposal, and I was careful to do so in tactful language. I explained why it was problematic for my team, offered multiple alternatives, and asked if we could have a conversation before a decision was made. She sent a 2-sentence email to her boss, cc’ing me, which basically just said “LittleBeans and I talked, this is not our problem and we aren’t going to do it.”

    I like Anne a lot. I don’t think she has bad intentions or is trying to throw me under the bus or anything like that. It almost feels like she doesn’t understand the nuances I’m trying to convey, or only remembers the take-away at the end and forgets all the details. But I obviously don’t have standing to say “let me see your email before you send it”, or “let me email your boss instead of you”. I’m going to be starting to work more closely with Anne in the future – how do I avoid this situation happening again?

    1. Qwerty*

      Have you talked about this with your boss at all? If so, what did she have to say about the situation. It might be helpful to have an ally who is at the same level as Anne.

      Also, is Anne like this with most topics or just politically-focused topics? Any chance that people tend to know that Anne just oversimplifies things?

    2. Rusty Shackelford*

      Personally, I’d respond with a clarification. “Just to let you know, looks like Anne misunderstood… what I said was that we shouldn’t have the shirts based on gender. I think having red and green shirts available to all, and letting everyone choose one color, is the best option.” And cc Anne.

      1. Deryn*

        I’m not sure if I would include the bit about Anne misunderstanding, but I might say something along the lines of, “To give a little more context, the reasons I support XYZ approach are…” especially if Anne is not ~wrong~ exactly, just not giving the full story.

      2. I Speak for the Trees*

        I would agree with this. And you don’t even have to use the word “misunderstood, but maybe just say that you wanted to clarify your reasoning so that everyone understood your position.

        1. LittleBeans*

          I did this in the second scenario. But now that it’s happened twice, I don’t want it to keep happening and me having to follow up every time. I’m worried that will start to look like I’m trying to undermine Anne…

    4. WellRed*

      On the first example you recommended one color, no? Regardless, in that case, do people really need the whole context behind the decision? The second example, though. Holy hell.

      1. Little bean*

        So I let the first one go because I agree, the outcome was what I suggested, so I guess people didn’t really need the background. But I didn’t want people thinking I was being weirdly rigid about one color for no reason.

        1. valentine*

          I would love to know why you like her. She’s expert at concisely and simultaneously undermining and sabotaging you. (I almost want her to teach me.) (I’m reading the second example as you saying it’s not your department’s problem, versus the whole org.)

          I would have responded to the colors with “We can have any number of colors available to all, but not a gender-based assignment.”

          Unless you can get your boss on board, you’ll have to keep correcting her or let the chips fall.

  146. I wish I had Leslie Knope's energy*

    I’m trying to figure out how to balance a bunch of things that are all somewhat at odds with each other. I’m a manager of a small team where I was once an individual contributor. I enjoyed it and was good at it, and I still find myself picking up tasks that I really should be delegating.

    My team is great, but being a manager means a lot of social interaction and meetings on a daily basis. I’m very introverted, so by the time I get home at night I’m completely exhausted. I have hobbies that I enjoy in my spare time, but I don’t have the mental energy to do anything except watch TV and go to sleep. I wake up the next morning still feeling exhausted, and drag myself out of bed to do it all over again.

    I’m sure my mental and physical health issues are playing a part of this. I’ve been taking care of the most pressing needs (sleep apnea, depression) which keeps me from toppling over the edge. But I feel like I’m barely functional – there are other health concerns that I just don’t have the energy to address.

    Somewhat related to health – I’m at the age where my biological clock is ticking louder and louder. My husband and I have discussed having children, and we both want to. I have some fertility issues that likely need deeper exploration – but I don’t have the energy to address it.

    I feel like I’m at a point where something big needs to change. I feel like I’ve been barely keeping my head above water for the last 2+ years – both at work and in my personal life. I wonder if there’s a different career option out there that would be more personally fulfilling, but I’m having trouble figuring out what it could be. A new job in my current area of expertise might help, but I don’t have the energy required to focus on a job search.

    How can I balance a management role, major introversion, mental and physical health, biological clock, and a desire to explore other career options?

    1. Kathenus*

      Can you list all of the things you mention in your last sentence, and then prioritize them? You may not be able to balance all of them as is, you might need to decide on changing some things. For example, you might put the management role low on your priority list versus the others – if so, do you look to go back to an individual contributor role or for the other career options? Only you can decide what works for you, but it might help for you and your husband to have a big picture life discussion and decide what things are most important, and set out a road map for what has to happen to achieve them, and then set an action plan to achieve those goals. Good luck.

    2. LQ*

      I’ve been having a lot of similar things. Something I’ve been doing is trying to figure out what I can trim down or make easier on myself. This is going to sound stupidly small, but grocery delivery. Not a thing I deal with anymore, they just show up. I don’t think about it, I don’t worry about it. I don’t have to go interact with people for that thing. At some point I’m going to get up the energy to do the initial conversation about finding someone to come into my house and doing like a quarterly deep clean and take that off my plate. Somethings I’ve taken off are social things, some are scheduling, some are thing I just stopped caring about. Some I got rid of stuff in my house so I don’t have to clean the pretty but tedious to clean things.

      I also with a great deal of sadness cut out a hobby and am using that time to figure out how to sort of organize and clean up other things, and then I can bring that hobby back in. But I prioritized making my life more manageable over some other stuff.

      Finally as a major introvert I’ve found that I can do a lot of stuff, but I NEED to have at least one weekend day to recover. Not just a little work, ideally, not even friends or family (I’m single/live alone). Just me, alone. Actually alone. Without working. I would much rather work a series of 14 hour days than straight through the weekend. 2 hours at the end of the night does not make up for waking well rested and doing the rejuvinating things. I think of it like the longer I’m plugged in the faster I charge, so I need longer times plugged in to get a good charge. You may be the opposite and can do 80% in an hour. Once you recognize that I think you need to hold really fast to that rule.

    3. ..Kat..*

      Sounds like you need to learn how to manage, including how to delegate. Not trying to be mean, it sounds as if you have not had the training/mentoring that you need to succeed. Can you ask your boss for this?

      That said, are you sure you want to be a manager? It sounds like this is not a good fit for you.

  147. philosophical_conversation*

    Does anyone have any recommendations for office-friendly air fresheners? I have my own office, but I notice that it gets pretty stuffy as it’s not well-ventilated and I’d love to have an air freshener in here. However, I have a pretty strong sensitivity to fragrance in terms of allergies and I don’t really want to have a scent (even if it’s a good one) coming from my office. I’m really looking for something that doesn’t aggravate allergies and is fairly neutral-scented, and I thought this would be a good place to ask, thanks!

    2. Ranon*

      Maybe just something that circulates the air with a filter? Getting the air moving can make a big difference.

    3. CatCat*

      I’d just get a fan or if you’re particularly looking to avoid allergens, an air purifier.

    4. The Man, Becky Lynch*

      You have to find a way to get circulation in there. Can you set up a fan?

      Right now if you just put something with even a faint fragrance, it’s going to still just hang in the heavy air.

    5. Ada*

      Febreeze has an unscented variety that’s just a deodorizer and nothing else (I think they call it “free”, or something like that). It works quite well and has no smell at all. Granted, it’s technically for fabrics, but sometimes that helps enough.

    6. KR*

      A fan, an air purifier of some sort, or some activated charcoal if you’re trying to eliminate stale odors. They come in little pouches or containers, give off no scent, absorb odors, and to “recharge” them you just lay them out in the sun.

    7. Not All*

      If you absolutely MUST have something that is an air freshener, I’d go with something like Zero Odor (comes in a whole bunch of styles).

      But if the issue is lack of air circulation, adding more “stuff” to that air is only going to make it worse.

      I’d also vote for trying something that will get the air moving, even just a tiny fan, will probably help more than you think. In one sketchy basement apartment in college that was about the same size as my current cubicle (totally illegal, no egress & basically no ventilation but cheap!) I went with a small HEPA air purifier. I think at the time it was like $40 but similar ones on amazon now seem to be closer to $80-100. It worked really really well…I actually still have it & run it in my basement at home sometimes.

  148. Put the Blame on Edamame*

    I know a few colleagues who are from Venezuela, and I invariably cringe when someone hears their accent, asks where they’re from (I’m in the UK where some people cannot communicate with you at all unless they know From Whence You Originated, or even better: let them guess!), then asks some tone deaf question like “So, what’s happening over there? Do you have family there?” The people I know who get asked this stuff deal with it so gracefully, but I just cringe because the questions tend to be so thoughtless and ignorant. /rant

    1. Cows go moo*

      Ask them right back, “…and where are you from?” in a cheerful manner. It’s a way of calling out othering without getting aggressive.

      1. just a random teacher*

        I think the issue here is more that Venezuela is Going Through Some Stuff right now, so it’s a really different kind of conversational opener than it would be if they were asking about, say, Canada. However, if the people asking the question don’t follow international news, they may be unaware of this.

    2. Not Yo Mama*

      But there’s other babysitting resources in the area, surely?
      Look online! A college or university! At least guide Sara(h) to those, kindly, says another disorganized mom

  150. avi*

    I’m seeking advice or commiseration for job-searching and feeling like my applications to jobs in my chosen field are ending up in a black hole somewhere. I have a combined total of 5 years’ experience, my resume’s solid, and I’ve had several people help me improve my cover letter writing skills over the past few months, but for the past two months I’ve been getting zero responses. I’m trying to keep my chin up and focus on the things I can control and apply to each new job as it comes up, but it’s very disheartening and soul-crushing to know I’m qualified for the jobs I’m applying for and have passion for and experience in my chosen field and to not be getting anywhere in the job applying process.

    1. EddieSherbert*

      No advice, but total agreement that job-hunting sucks! It makes sense why they can’t necessarily reach out to every applicant, but not hearing anything back always feels a bit personal :(

      Good luck in your job hunt!

    2. Small but Fierce*

      I’m mostly offering commiseration. I have a similar amount of experience and I’m trying to be picky, so I’m only applying for clear promotions. I also moved to a new region of the country, so I have no network up here. It’s disheartening since I used to get a ton of messages from recruiters and now I’m getting nothing, but I know that it will be harder to break into this next, “senior-level” stage than getting in via a lateral. Just trying to be patient and not take it personally.

  151. Mr. Tyzik*

    Next time she asks, say that you are sorry but your sitters are booked up, and she’ll need to find her own childcare. Then ask her nicely if she’s looked into the resources you offered.

    That should put the onus back on her. If it feels awkward, remember that Sarah is the one making it awkward.

  152. Nerdgal*

    So, anybody familiar with Workers Comp procedures in Texas? I was injured on the job and am having great difficulty scheduling procedures because the insurance adjuster and the imaging place cannot seem to work together. I would welcome suggestions for how to get them moving. Do I need an attorney? Is there some magic word that they need to hear? Any suggestions welcome!

    1. irene adler*

      RE: an attorney
      If you are thinking you might need one, suggest getting a free consultation first.
      You should be able to do this as follows:
      Find the local American Bar Association group.
      They should have a web site you can visit. Often they will have a section with a way to sign up for a free 30 min consultation with an attorney.
      Then ask the attorney for what you can do to get all parties on the same page.

    2. The Man, Becky Lynch*

      Knowing that Texas doesn’t even require companies to have workers comp, I’m relieved yours did at very least.

      Since it’s not required there, I would very much lawyer-up at this time. You need the assistance because you’re going to need to square up with the insurance agency, they’re notorious for this kind of miscommunication issue.

    3. ..Kat..*

      The insurance adjuster has no incentive to work together. It is possible that they are doing this on purpose. Either hoping the problem will go away or you will give up. This is what crappy workers comp insurance companies do.

      I would suggest going through your HR first – tell them the problem, ask for help resolving it.

  153. Anono-me*

    I can understand your position that you hired a child care provider specifically to care for your child and your child alone. This part of your post I agree with and I do support your decision not to want your child care provider to watch a second child while watching yours.

    But from reading this it sounds like you are also unwilling to share the names of other Child Care Professionals with your co-worker. First, I think you should check with these other Child Care Professionals to see if they would like you to share their contact information with your coworker . Then, if they are in favor of it, I think you should share the names of these other child care providers. These people are trying to make a living.

    Also I’m a little uncomfortable with the way a few things were phrased. (Maybe I’ve just dealt with a few too many overly pushy superior affluent parents.) You mentioned your coworker asking you to “share your sitter”. Sitters are not things to be shared, like a taxi or a pizza. They sometimes may agree to take on additional children beyond what they were originally hired to take care of (with all families’ approval.), but that is an expansion of a work agreement. One that needs to be negotiated well in advance with additional compensation. (Suprise, little Kris is having a couple of friends stay over. = Suprise, nope, bye. )
    Also, the only time you “own” of a child care provider is the time you pay for. If you want that Prime Saturday night slot available to you every week, you better plan on paying for that slot every week; even on the weeks you don’t use it. Because otherwise I will find someone who will.

    1. MayLou*

      Yes, I was once booked to babysit four children for the evening (which is quite a lot of children under 8 but I’d previously been an au pair to five children under 12 so knew I could handle it), but was surprised when I arrived to find that it wasn’t four siblings including twins as I’d assumed from the email with their ages, but two sets of siblings who were on holiday together. Significant difference in hyperness and difficulty managing their behaviour – to them it was a fun exciting sleepover with friends they didn’t see often in an unfamiliar apartment, not the regular routine at home. I’ve been a professional nanny/babysitter for nearly ten years and it was a struggle to get them all into bed and settled. I would work for that family again but I would probably charge them my higher day-time rate, which is based on the principle that it is harder work to look after children when they are awake, since these kids WERE awake most of the evening!

  154. ADB_BWG*

    I have been chosen for a six-month detail as the first-level manager of my group. I know that at least two of my seven co-workers also applied for this detail. Because it was competitive (federal government) I can be made permanent manager with no additional processes. The present first-level manager (Shaggy) is doing a detail as the a second level manager, and the present second-level manager (Scooby) is doing a detail as the third-level manager. I have to approach the job as if Shaggy and Scooby will come back and I’ll return to peer status. A complicating factor is that Coworker (one of my peers who also applied for the detail) has a number of work-quality issues. Shaggy and Scooby have acknowledged these issues but neither has been willing to do more than tell Coworker s/he needs to do better. Neither has been open to creating aPIP or other specific requirements for improvement.

    I’d appreciate advice for starting out right in this situation – managing peers, several of whom wanted the job themselves, and One of whom has previously unaddressed performance issues.

    TIA!

    1. Middle Manager*

      That’s tough. I don’t know if I would go as formal as doing a PIP if 1. the people above you aren’t in support and 2. you may only be temporarily in the role and not be able to see it through. I think I’d probably use the six months to build solid documentation of the issues, provide lots of feedback to the underperformer, etc. If you are made permanent and have more authority, you’ll be ready to go to take a more formal step like a PIP then. Just my two cents.

    2. Kathenus*

      It’s a challenging situation, with the possibility of going back to peer status, the current six-month duration, and the poorly addressed performance issues. A couple of thoughts. One is to set very clear expectations, both in an interactive meeting with the direct reports (as a team, or one-on-one depending on what you think best) and then in a follow up email to have documentation. That way everyone knows what you expect from them, and it was interactive so you had a chance to hear their questions and feedback and adjust the expectations if needed with that in mind. Then, loop in your boss on what you’re doing.

      Have a discussion with your boss about the past performance issues to get their thoughts as well. But I’d try to go in with the attitude that everyone has a clean slate unless they prove otherwise to you, so assume that they’ll be good performers until they show you differently.

      If there are issues, again, keep open communication with your boss as to the issue, what you plan to do about it, and get her feedback. Then meet with the person, remind them of the expectations and ask them about the current issue in case there are elements you don’t know about causing the problem, then set an updated action plan with what they need to achieve going forward. Keep documenting. If the problems continue, you’ll need to talk to your boss about whether or not you do a PIP or wait until the detail is over or becomes permanent. It’s a balancing act, to be sure. But if you treat everyone fairly, are clear with expectations, listen to their ideas and feedback and adjust when possible, and document, hopefully you’ll have success with your team. Good luck!

    3. Overeducated*

      I think a six month detail is not a good position for trying to fix or seriously address performance issues. Make your expectations very clear, tell Coworker exactly how s/he needs to do better and any support you can give, and document performance because you’re going to probably need give them an interim review anyway. But when Shaggy and Scooby weren’t willing to take formal steps, and you are possibly leaving before the PIP and its consequences can all play out, at this point you have to assume Shaggy will be coming back and will not be thrilled to be left holding that bag. As you probably know, a lot of the time being “acting” means trying to keep things running smoothly but not making major changes and decisions unless it’s really necessary.

      Also…I’ve seen what happens when a peer in an interim supervisory position is seen as on a power trip. It may be a hard line to walk but you’ll have to remember these people are going to be your peers again. It’s tough because managing isn’t about being liked, but you’re not in the same position as a new permanent manager and it’s probably not a good time to try to whip people into shape. I wish you the best of luck.

      1. Tabby Baltimore*

        I agree with Overeducated’s first sentence. If you are serious about making a difference in your co-worker’s behavior, you’ll need to sit down with someone from your agency’s HR office and learn about what steps they normally advise managers to take when they are unhappy with an employee’s performance. At my agency, they typically ask managers to first put the employee on a “training plan” for at least 30 days (and it could be more, like 30-60 days, but I’m not sure). If the manager doesn’t see any improvement at that point, the manager can then escalate the situation by getting HR to issue a Letter of Performance (lasts 45-60 days) to the employee, and then, if that doesn’t work, the PIP is the last stop (60-90 days). This may not be a battle you can fight, much less win, so you might want to think about Middle Manager’s advice about documenting, and Kathenus’ advice on making your expectations clear and keeping your boss in the loop.

  155. Indigo64*

    I just found out that I will be attending an industry conference next month. I’m very excited- people at my level usually don’t go to these things so it’s a huge deal to be going. One hiccup- I have a 7 month old daughter who is still nursing. I’ve been able to make childcare arrangements (thank you, awesome husband!) and I have plenty of milk in the freezer to cover my trip, but I don’t know how to handle pumping at the conference. How do I go about finding space to pump during the day? What about flying back home with 3 days of milk? Anyone have experience traveling with a baby at home?

    1. fposte*

      I have no experience in any of this, but there are some sites with information about traveling with breastmilk; I’m including in followup a link that seemed well researched.

      How far is your hotel from the venue? If you can pump in your hotel room that would be ideal, as there’d be no need to schlep pump and milk around. Some convention centers have lactation rooms, and if they don’t, you might be able to contact somebody at the venue or somebody associated with the conference. If the venue is a hotel(s) but not one you’re staying at, you might be able to find a sympathetic attendee staying in the hotel to let you use her room, too.

    2. ConferencePlanner*

      Congratulations on approval to attend the conference!

      I plan conferences in my work, and I always make sure there is a lactation room, and lately the event center/hotel staff also reminds us to book one too. Reach out to one of the event organizers and ask where the room will be. Unless your industry is particularly male dominated, I bet they’ll have a quick answer for you! At my conferences, we use draping in a large room to make private spaces with comfy chairs and a small soda fridge for storage during the day. The fridge is shared between all of the pumping moms, so you might need to label your bottles just in case another mom has the same brand equipment.

      Search “TSA Breastmilk” to find their page about how to alert airport screeners that you have it.

      1. MayLou*

        Even if the industry is particularly male dominated, and perhaps especially, this is somewhere they won’t want to mess up the optics, and a month is enough lead time for them to book a room even if they hadn’t already thought of it.

    3. Not A Manager*

      I remember the days when breast milk felt more precious than gold. BUT… if you have plenty of milk in your freezer, then worst-case you can pump in the ladies room at the conference and discard the milk after. If your goal is to maintain your milk supply.

      You can still keep the milk that you pumped in more sanitary environments, and bring that home. Although again, if you don’t need it, don’t stress too much about having to travel with it.

  156. Ada*

    Thought I’d throw out a quick PSA re: business wardrobes (at least, I’ve only ever seen this with things like suits) – double check your fake pockets to see if they actually ARE fake. Especially ladies, as we’ve been conditioned to assume The Pocket Is A Lie. Six years ago I bought a blazer. Two days ago I realized the “fake” pockets in it weren’t fake at all – they were just sewn shut! This entire time I had three (!) functional pockets and I had no idea. Two are big enough to fit my phone, even.

    Oh, and check your skirt hems, too. You might have a slit sewn together, especially on pencil skirts, and removing those stitches can make it much easier to walk.

    1. Rusty Shackelford*

      I know a lot of people aren’t aware that pockets are often sewn shut (I’ve seen so many reviews on retail websites complain about “fake pockets” when I have the item and know for a fact you only have to pull out a basting thread and voila! a pocket!), but do people really not see a giant X stitch on their slit skirts?

      1. KR*

        I have seen similar stitches and pockets and I assume they’re part of the design of the pants. I did not grow up knowing how to sew beyond the basic, this is how you see two things together and this is a blanket stitch for the ends of things. My parents never wore suits as a kid because dad was a mechanic and mom was a low level health care worker who lived in scrubs. No one ever told me – I think I first heard of it on here THIS YEAR or an article listing things that make you look less than polished at work. If you can’t afford nice clothes or haven’t been able to afford these kinds of clothes historically I can’t imagine someone just ripping out seams willy nilly unless someone tells them they’re supposed to.

        1. valentine*

          do people really not see a giant X stitch on their slit skirts?
          I often cut through material when removing bastard tags and I don’t want to ruin work clothes. So many labels and tags, including hieroglyphic laundering instructions I’m never going to memorize, yet they don’t say I need to finish the garment by cutting it apart?

      2. Environmental Compliance*

        I have definitely not seen one on a pencil skirt I bought simply because the slit itself had a great deal of overlap, plus the x was relatively small & in the exact same color thread as the skirt itself. Those x’s are actually pretty easy to miss, especially if you don’t know to look for them.

        1. Ada*

          Same. Mine was designed it a way that it looked like the back seam just went all the way down.

    2. Jungkook*

      This is a much needed PSA! I’ve even bought second-hand dress pants with the pockets still sewn up – apparently the person who owned them before me didn’t realize the pockets were real, either.

    3. Rebecca*

      I’m so glad you posted this! I too have had a blazer for several years, and discovered recently that the pockets are “real”. And I wore a skirt with the back “x” stitch still in place. Ugh. Why is all this stuff so hard???

    4. MaureenC*

      Also check the back vent on jackets, everyone! Sales clerks should tell people that the X is a temporary stitch that’s meant to be removed, but they don’t.

      1. The Man, Becky Lynch*

        Ah see, I never deal with anyone in sales, so they don’t even have the option to tell me even if they wanted to! I forget that buying things at stores with sales people is a thing, doh.

    5. BrilliantMistake*

      That is good information to note that not everyone would realize! I will say that sometimes I leave pockets sewn shut because it can give more structure to a blazer, for example. And that way, I can’t overload/stretch out the pockets (by the end of the day, I can have lots I’m carrying around!). Sometimes it depends on the fabric and whether it’s obvious to others that it’s still sewn shut.

    6. Someone Else*

      I just sadly had the opposite experience. I bought something thinking it had sewn-shut pockets and didn’t pay much attention. Only realized after getting home they’re not sewn shut, they’re fake.

  157. Ops manager*

    I’m planning to ask at my yearly review about the possibility of a promotion. My position has a senior level and I will have the correct number of years of experience in the fall.

    Is this something that I should put in my se evaluation? Or just being up at the end of my review?

  158. Kira*

    I had the weirdest phone interview yesterday. The organization is in industry A, and I have some experience in adjacent industries and also a skillset they need. There were two people on the call, but the main person kept stepping out.

    The other person first asked me if I knew what the company did because I didn’t have much experience in A, and then said I wasn’t a good fit for the position they advertised for. Did you not read my resume before you decided to talk to me? I asked if I should end the call, following scripts I’ve seen here basically because it was awkward for both of us, and then the main person said “we don’t want to let you go so easily”. Basically they may possible do something with my skillset 6 months from now . . . and thats it.

    1. Kira*

      Another place I’ve been going back and forth with an admin like this:

      Me: I can meet from 2pm – 5pm on Tuesday
      Admin: Great! I scheduled you for 10am
      Me: I have class at that time, I can reschedule if you can’t
      Admin: Okay, scheduled you for 11am!

      I hate applying to jobs. I have class from 9 – 1 that day, which I told him. I could obviously skip class, but idk if that exactly sends a good message to an employer either.

      1. ArtsNerd*

        Well that doesn’t bode well for the admin’s attention to detail. Employer probably won’t frown on you for skipping class but what an annoying experience.

      2. BeeGee*

        This isn’t unusual, I have had similar situations occur. I find that the issue originates due to differences in what the hiring manager is looking for compared to what HR or recruiter might think would be a good fit for the role. It’s frustrating and it’s sucks to get your hopes up and truly believe you would be a good fit for a role only to find out that you’re not at all what the manager wants. Often you just have to chalk it up to a lack of clear communication between parties for what is required for the candidate for the role.

  159. Not a real name today . . .*

    The post around old-school job searches brings back so many memories–I got several jobs through gumption!
    But this is 2019. For the love of whatever–follow the application directions! [not you–you’re an AAM reader and know such things! But encourage your friends and family who are job searching to read the application directions and follow them!]
    I’m asking for a cover letter and resume as one document sent to a specific email address. I even list 5 questions I’d like you to answer in your cover letter! And state it’s fine to say you have no answer for a question! What do I get? LinkedIn connect requests so they can apply to me since [I’m] a real person. Applications submitted via our website contact because it “will get to a real person.” Someone calling to be let into our secure building so they can drop off their application in person, “to a real person.” One line emails to “see my website here and then call me and we’ll discuss my terms.”
    Don’t even get me started on the writing samples–I asked for specific things. Your fan fiction isn’t going to work as a sample, especially when you spell the character’s name wrong. I will admit I enjoyed the parody of Casey at the Bat.

      1. Not a real name today . . .*

        We hire a lot of freelance writers and they need experience writing for Fortune 100 tech companies. Again, fan fiction does not work–not even FF about the current POTUS (shudder). Nor does your young adult novel, your screenplay, your memoir of your college sexcapades, your lifestyle blog . . . .
        I will say that most applicants do a good job of submitting materials and we confirm receipt of every application. It’s just been a particularly trying couple of days. Was Wednesday National Submit An Awful Job Application day?

    2. The Man, Becky Lynch*

      Yesssss, I live for these stories.

      I just had someone drop by to “fill out an application” the other day, I had to have our front desk turn them away and let them know that we don’t have any openings.

      When we did have an opening, we ask that everyone apply through X website, submit a cover letter and resume, standard stuff. Nobody. Nobody. Nobody. Nobody. NO-B-O-D-Y sends a cover letter.

      1. Not a real name today . . .*

        Yes, we ask them to create one document cover letter first, followed by resume. We also ask them to name it a certain way (raise your hand if you’ve received applications titled SusieResume or something like that). It’s actually pretty easy. Write your cover letter and then cut and paste your resume on the second page. Or save both as a combined doc with Adobe Acrobat. Because the position requires attention to detail and formatting the content docs a certain way it’s really a sort of early screening process to make sure they’re reading the directions because we work with picky clients and they do want content submitted in a certain font with certain sized margins, etc. That said, I do look at every singe application, correctly formatted or not, and if they have a good cover letter and experience I’ll shoot them an email asking them to resubmit according to the directions. Most do so cheerfully with an “oops–sorry about that, I should have read the directions.” If the don’t resubmit I figure they aren’t that serious.

        1. Kira*

          What would you want resumes to be named? I think my document is called LastnameResume or something like that.

          1. Miss Pantalones en Fuego*

            I have had applications before where the instructions were to name the file something like Lastname-JobNumber (where every job had a position code like HR18625 or what have you. Normally I name my files using a system like Lastname_CV_Job and Lastname_Statement_Job.

          2. Not a real name today . . .*

            We give a specific format. But if it doesn’t say I would suggest something like first_last_job_title or perhaps company name. Anything that makes it easy to do a search in the review folder/platfrm. You would be amazed how many times we get an applications simply titled Resume.doc. It can get annoying renaming hundreds of resumes before posting them to the review folder!

      2. Not a real name today . . .*

        I just realized I really didn’t answer your question! One document because we usually review electronically and it’s easier to keep track of one.

  160. Face Cat vs Hand Dog*

    How do you address international relocation when you’d need immigration sponsorship in a cover letter?

    I’m trying to find a job in a totally different country from the one I live in because I want to move there. My country doesn’t have agreements with that one that would allow me to just move or take a job without sponsorship— you and your employer have to apply and the process takes a few months. However many people from lots of other countries are in assorted agreements with this one and can move freely without these applications/delays, so those folks are among my competition for these jobs. My country is one of the largest sources of immigration to this other one, though, so it’s not unusual.

    How do I address this in a cover letter? I need the job to move, so I can’t give them a timeline I’ll be there, and I don’t have something cute like “relocating for family” or whatever.

    In some cases these jobs are posted on boards specifically looking for international hires, in some cases not. Should I handle those two situations differently?

    1. ..Kat..*

      If a company is looking for international hires, they should know that you will need such assistance to get a job. And should have procedures in place to facilitate this. I would concentrate on these companies.

    2. AcademiaNut*

      You can have a line in your resume that lists citizenship/work permission. Otherwise, I would finish the cover letter by saying something like “Please note that I would need to be sponsored for a visa to work in Ruritania”.

      If a company is recruiting internationally, they’ll be used to this and can handle things. However, if they’re not recruiting internationally, I wouldn’t hold out too much hope that they’ll be interested in hiring you, unless you work in something particularly in demand. Sponsoring someone for a work visa is often not a simple process, and there are frequently restrictions on the type of jobs you can sponsor people for, and it can take time. If they can hire a good candidate who can already work legally and start quickly, there’s no incentive to consider you. (I work overseas in a very international field, so I know a lot of people with work visas).

  161. Leah*

    I work for a well-known fortune 500 company as their local IT support. Ever since I started my career almost seven years ago I’ve been working with IT support, which means I’m pretty darn good at what I do, and because of that my job hasn’t felt challenging or engaging (I joke with my friends that I could do my job with one hand behind my back and my eyes closed). I basically feel like I’m not doing as much as I could, and I’m eager (almost antsy) to learn new things and do more than what I currently do. Aka I really want to go up the metaphorical corporate ladder, or even make a lateral move to a different department. I’ve told this to my boss, who was very supportive of my decision, and I’ve been looking at openings available on my company’s internal HR portal, but it’s been hard because all openings in and outside my field request experience in things I don’t have, because I’ve been stuck with support all this time.

    The thing is, my company just posted an opening for the same position as the one I’m currently have right now, local IT support, but in the UK – London, to be more specific. While I do want to explore new horizons in the company and would love to get a different job that will help me grow professionally, it’s also no secret that my dream is to live abroad, either in the UK or the US – and since I have European citizenship, the UK seems more feasible at the moment, while Brexit doesn’t resolve itself. I told my boss about the opening, and he, without a beat, told me to apply, and my friends all scoffed at me when I said I was hesitant to do so because I didn’t want to move jobs when I’d essentially just be doing the very same thing that’s been making me feel like I have the potential to do so much more. They argued that moving to the UK is by itself a great improvement in what I’m currently doing, which I agree by some extent, but also I still want more and fear that moving to the UK to do the same thing I’m doing here will just mean I’m still feeling demotivated, but will have a nicer view and potentially a better quality of life. I also fear that finding a better job won’t be easy, because I have no experience outside support and all openings I’ve found interesting so far request experience in several things outside what I’m familiar with.

    What would you guys suggest I do? Keep looking? Take the leap and apply for this job in the UK? And if I apply, how should my cover letter look like?

    1. anna green*

      Definitely apply! Some of those questions you may even get answers to in the application process as far as career path etc. But if you want to live in the UK, this is a great opportunity because work may not be as challenging so you can have time/energy to experience the new place. Then you can look at career options from there.
      And applying doesn’t mean accepting. Apply apply!!

    2. MayLou*

      Applications in the UK are quite different from the USA, from what I have seen (it is possible that this is less true for your industry though), so I’d recommend trying to find someone in the same field from the UK for advice on applications. On the other hand, since it’s with the same company that might not be relevant. Still worth checking! And no harm in applying :) Good luck!

    3. Weegie*

      Jobs advertised in the UK will often include the email address or phone number of someone who can answer questions about the role, so you could ask them for advice about what they want in the cover letter. But basically you should outline why you want the role and how you meet the essential criteria for it.

      But don’t for the love of Mike use the word ‘excited’ anywhere in the letter: ‘interested’ is fine, and maybe even ‘enthusiastic’, but never ‘excited’.

      Good luck!

  162. Smokin Rabbit*

    I’m curious. Has anyone worked for the same manager at different companies? I have essentially worked for the same person for the last 20 years. I met Manager at Company A and got laid off and then Company A folded. I worked elsewhere for a while. Manager gets hired at Company B and asks me to interview and ends up hiring me. Manager leaves Company B for Company C after several years. I leave shortly to work elsewhere. Manager asks me if I’m interested in working for Company C and ends up hiring me. So, I essentially have had the same manager for years. My in-between companies were short-lived and I did not keep track of the managers. How would you handle references? I reported directly to Manager in all companies.

    1. Environmental Compliance*

      Did you work with other managers at all, or could you ask some coworkers to be references?

      1. Smokin Rabbit*

        I could ask coworkers but they always ask for managers and my other managers were very short lived – like months. Manager knows I’m looking and will provide a good reference but I only have the one. :(

        1. Gumby*

          Seriously, the fact that manager kept asking you to come work for her is very telling. It means you were good enough she went out of her way to hire you! Make it clear the same person managed you at 3 long-term jobs. If they are so rule-bound that they can’t work around that (and use 2 co-workers as your other references) then that tells you something about them and maybe you don’t want to work for them after all.

        2. ..Kat..*

          Since your manager is supportive of this and knows your work history well, can your manager suggest other managers that you worked with (not for) as possible references?

  163. KeepIt*

    I wish we could have another “Is This Normal” thread. Are most workplaces petty/gossipy to a high-school-drama level? Every workplace I’ve been in has been like that and, obviously, it’s not “healthy” but is it to be somewhat expected anywhere I go?

    My boss has an office directly across the hall from mine and people filter in and out throughout the day to chat. I usually have headphones on but a lot of times I catch snipets of conversations and…it’s almost always gossip about someone else in the office or our industry that we work with. Usually about people making mistakes/faux pas at events that I myself would not have even realized WERE mistakes if I hadn’t been overhearing these conversations. Which just makes me wonder how much I’m being talked about when I’m not around since I know I can be very shy/socially awkward :( I feel like I’m constantly second guessing everything I say and do now and it’s making very anxious/bitter towards the whole field

    1. KeepIt*

      And let me also point out that this is an industry where reputation is of the upmost importance and it seems like missteps get remembered for a loooooooong time

    2. The Man, Becky Lynch*

      People talk everywhere, that’s for sure. But it’s a toxic environment when they are full on gossiping like a couple of mean girls about others and remembering all transgressions along the way.

      I learned 85% of what I know from listening to other conversations, I’m always listening. So I can promise you these ears have heard very little true gossip in all my jobs. The only places that had that going on where gross and not fun places to be apart of for a long stretch!

      It’s never normal to be catty or to remember mistakes and grind that axe forever and ever.

    3. Quandong*

      The vast majority of my workplaces have not been gossipy and petty at all.

      I’ve been in workplaces where one or two people relished gossip, and they weren’t reined in by their bosses (it wasn’t the boss promoting the drama or gossip). The workplace was very uncomfortable, two distinct groups formed (pro-gossip and those who wouldn’t participate), and management didn’t take positive actions to remedy the lack of trust between coworkers.

      One of these workplaces improved dramatically when the prime gossip resigned to take up a job that suited her family better. I really noticed the lack of people clustered together making snarky comments throughout the day. The other workplace I left due to some other dysfunction.

      It sounds like you have a boss who is actively encouraging gossip of a type that undermines people, and takes pleasure in discussing their mistakes. I’m very sorry. I would be highly uncomfortable in your position, and because I don’t participate in that kind of thing I’d feel out of place and dispirited. If you want to start looking for another job to escape this culture, please do so.

    4. ..Kat..*

      Not all work places are like this. Good work places are definitely not like this. A big problem with your workplace is that your boss is actively participating in this. She should be shutting it down.

  164. C*

    I’m filling out a job application today that asks me to upload my resume (ok), but then asks me to fill out required information in a form – one of which is my driver’s license number and state!

    I kind of don’t want to give this information out and driving is definitely not required for the job. Is this sketchy? I’m tempted to put in all zeros or a 1234567 — if I make it to an interview, of course I’ll give all that info.

    1. KeepIt*

      It might be for a background check? I think I remember I’ve had to provide that before applying to public sector jobs before, but that was when I was much younger and not so weary about giving that kind of info out! I def understand the hesitation. Maybe there’s someone you can email to ask whether that part is required/what they want the information for?

    2. AndersonDarling*

      I also worry about this. There isn’t a lot of focus on the security of applicant systems. If they are hacked, then there goes all your personal information.
      One time I filled out an application with my husband for a job where he would be driving a company vehicle, so it made sense to fill it in at an early stage. otherwise I would put in an obviously fake number like you suggested. I won’t even give my soc# until later stages in the process.

    3. Admin of Sys*

      Does the job have any chance of requiring you to drive while on the company clock? If it’s a situation where you have to drive to client’s locations or remote sites, they may be checking that you have a valid license.

    4. Turtlewings*

      I ran into that when I started job-hunting in Texas — it had never come up where I lived before — and since I didn’t have a Texas license yet (getting one involved significant money), I got auto-rejected a lot, even though it made no sense for the jobs to require a Texas license, or even a driver’s license at all. It was profoundly frustrating, so eventually I, well, started outright lying on the applications and saying I had a Texas license when I didn’t. No one ever double-checked it. It never came up in interviews. I don’t remember if the job I eventually got was one of the ones where I lied, which is probably proof of how little it mattered and how pointless the requirement was. So like… I’m usually the last to advocate lying, but in this case I wouldn’t blame you a bit. Plus the concern about information safety is perfectly legit.

      1. C*

        I’m glad I saw this reply – this actually IS for a job in Texas (and I’m applying from out-of-state) and hearing that you got auto-rejected… is terrifying. So you just made up a number?

        1. Turtlewings*

          I’m not sure if I ever had to provide the number. If so, I probably made up a number. If you make it obviously fake, like you mentioned before, it gives you a good segue into explaining the information-safety aspect.

  165. Branded*

    I’ve worked at my current company for almost 5 years. Over that time the company has handed out promotional items for various events that are branded (think cups, mugs, t-shirts). Currently at my desk I have a water tumbler, a water bottle and a mug that I use. I like them mainly because if they are stolen, misplaced or break I don’t care.
    In two weeks, I am starting a new job at an unrelated company. Would it be odd to use a branded coffee mug and water bottle from my old company? I could go out and by cheap ones to keep at my desk but just don’t want to spend money if I don’t have to.
    P.S. I like to leave them at my desk because I always forget them if I bring them home.

    1. Kathenus*

      Depends. If it’s a competitor, I wouldn’t use them. If it’s unrelated, maybe use one branded item, but I wouldn’t use a bunch because it could look like you aren’t fully engaged with the new company. Silly, I know, but perceptions can matter. These are low cost items so I’d err on the side of getting most/all new ones.

    2. BadWolf*

      Is it a direct competitor? Do you have any stickers or decals you could use to cover the logo?

    3. ..Kat..*

      If you have an office or cube, i.e., these items are not just hanging out for all to see, I would lean towards it being okay. But, is your new company at all against your old company? If so, don’t use old company products.

      Personally, I would suggest that you don’t decide for a week or so. See what others are doing at your new job.

      1. valentine*

        Good idea.

        Don’t use the old brand. It’s like a permanent “At OldCo, we used to…”

    5. Miss Pantalones en Fuego*

      I might keep them for my own amusement but only if there is something appealing about the design or some cachet to having worked there. But I’d wait to see what the new place is like before I used them at work.

  166. Poor judgement*

    Any advice for how to have a conversation with an employee exhibiting poor judgement in several situations?

    We’ve worked together 5 years as equals, I’m newly in a supervisory (but not manager) role over her, she’s old enough to be my mom. Concerns mostly center on an inability to identify and comply with office norms. Like taking loud, sensitive personal phone calls at her cube, oversharing or monopolizing conversations with talk about herself, dress code. At a recent conference where most people wore blazers, she wore her standard wardrobe of cotton capris pants, cotton v-neck shirts, and sketchers. It was not her first time attending the conference so ignorance isn’t an excuse.

    None of these are new behaviors, but now that I’m supervising her I feel it reflects poorly on me to leave these things unaddressed. What’s the best way to approach these issues? One big conversation? Or one by one?

    1. fposte*

      I never know how supervisor-but-not-manager works. However: it sounds to me like you may be at risk of overfocusing on behaviors that bothered you as her co-worker and taking her behavior more personally than necessary; these sound more like friction points that judgment issues. If her phone voice is disrupting people, say “Hey, Lucinda, can you keep it down? Thanks.” If she’s talking too much in your meeting, you can say “Lucinda, those are good points but we need to move on to Bob now,” but I’d let go whatever spontaneous conversations she has with other people. If your office requires a dress code for the conference, attendees should be explicitly told what that code is in advance. All of these are pretty simple, low-impact factual communications.

      Supervising people you don’t like much can be pretty challenging sometimes, but it’s important to be fair and to differentiate between behaviors that need correction and behaviors that just bug you.

      1. Poor judgement*

        The dress code is pretty explicitly on conference materials. And it’s our organization hosting the conference so no reason not to be aware of the expectation. Her dress is borderline-too casual in the office but given she’s generally not client-facing it hasn’t seemed worth addressing. The conference though…

        Fair points about the other issues though. I’ll keep that in mind moving forward.

        1. fposte*

          Oh, good for you guys! That’s excellent. If the dress code is explicit and you’re hosting, it’s absolutely appropriate to address that. That’s one where I’d even bring it up preemptively–nicely–when the next conference looms and planning for it is in discussion. If you can throw in a low-budget rec (“A Target blazer would be fine”) it would be nice to do in case she’s resistant for financial reasons.

    2. The Man, Becky Lynch*

      Focus on the things she does that outside of the written policies [which means the dress code in this case!]

      So you can absolutely bring it up and say “This conference requires more formal attire, we need you to wear office casual, no jeans, t-shirts or tennis shoes.”

      I would leave the quirky things about her oversharing or monopolizing aside because unless it’s harmful [she’s oversharing things deemed totally inappropriate for work environment], you have to let that ship sail. These are things that we just deal with in an office setting and working with different personalities.

      Since I believe it’s also poor judgement to be overly harsh or strict in most aspects. Which I’m glad that means that she’s not made to wear office attire when she’s not in a role that really requires it [except on the conference days!]. If you’re flexible there you should be flexible elsewhere.

    3. ..Kat..*

      I recommend talking with your manager about this first. You don’t want to tell her to make changes and then find out that the manager does not support you.

      1. valentine*

        I recommend talking with your manager about this first.
        Yes. Are you meant to say anything about her behavior or just her work product? And it makes sense for her to assume her daily dress-code exemption extends to the conference, and I’d be surprised if she remembers the requirements. (And live examples don’t matter because y’all are stuffy and she is cool or she has a medical need for less and looser clothing and sneakers or she’s earned her clothing via seniority.)

  167. a good mouse*

    How can you job search when you’re half of one thing and half the other? I’ve been in a role where I do half producer work (leading teams, project development, organizing, but not dealing with budgeting or overall scheduling) and half technical work (simple programming, mockups, and tech setup/research, but not software engineer final product type work). Everything I work for either wants a full producer with experience or a full engineer with experience and I don’t quite fit either. I’m kind of at a loss.

    1. Eff Your Late Fees*

      You don’t have to fit every requirement to apply or even be picked! I recently did basically the same thing in my industry. Was working in a position that was something like 60% public facing, 40% technical work, but with a job title that implied 100% public facing, and I interviewed for a job that was 100% technical. I highlighted those qualifications in my application, and in the interview addressed how I’ve prepared for the parts I’ve been “out of practice” in – looking up webinars, etc. I was directly asked about it (“So this is a bit of a change for you, huh?”) and didn’t shy away & answered it in a way that oriented me into their goals – I explained that I took the position because of the 40% portion that appealed to me, and at this point in my career I’d like to find a position that allows me to dedicate my focus and professional growth on those duties.

      Got the job! Start next week. Good luck on your search :)

  168. Mrs. Carmen Sandiego JD*

    I know plenty of friends who’ve gone from the legal industry to leaving the legal industry.

    However, I’m early/mid-career and just entering a microcosm of the legal world (in-house-ish), after having sworn off law for….6 years.

    Has anyone else been in my shoes–not been in the legal field, then came in after a few years of working elsewhere? What was it like? What expectations did attorneys have, that others didn’t–standards, unwritten rules?

    I notice that the attorneys I work with are frighteningly detail-oriented, overworked, reasonably personable…

  169. Miss Astoria Platenclear*

    This situation just happened, and I’m still somewhat rattled:
    A man in a business suit came to the door of our office and said he was her for an interview. We had another interview scheduled, and I thought my boss forgot to tell me about this one. I put him in the conference room and informed “Amanda,” the assistant coordinator.
    Turns out the guy had no interview, just saw Amanda walking into the building and wanted to meet her.
    What the hell?!? Do men just walk around in business attire looking for attractive young women to stalk? I feel bad for being so careless.
    I’ve dealt with pushy salespeople, walk-in would-be applicants who actually do want a job, and panhandlers, but never this situation. Weird.

    1. Kathenus*

      Wildly inappropriate. It might be worth putting a description/name out to your team and making sure people know not to let him in again. And ask Amanda if she’d like an escort to her car for a few days, or anything else if she feels uncomfortable.

      2. Ophelia Bumblesmoop*

        How did he know Amanda would be the person he interacted with? Was it dumb luck?

        This is also something to think about if you are with a company that has a badge or name tag. Don’t wear it outside of the building – even if you are running to your car or to get a coffee from the corner shop!

    2. Fake Old Converse Shoes (not in the US)*

      I’m afraid letting him in was dangerous. What if this person was someone who wanted to hurt Amanda? In such cases the best you can do is to make them wait and check if they should be there.

    4. Turtlewings*

      It doesn’t sound to me like you did anything wrong, assuming you didn’t skirt around security processes you would normally have used. It’s impossible to expect or plan for behavior that bizarre. You put the guy in a room and informed Amanda, then, I assume, gave him the boot when he turned out to be lying. I’m not sure what else you could have done, even if you’d had any reason to suspect him. Naturally you’re rattled, and it’s worth spreading the word in whatever way is appropriate to your office to make sure he’s not let in again, but you didn’t do anything to cause or allow his weirdness.

    5. voluptuousfire*

      It’s definitely a red flag!

      Reminds me of a time years ago one of my retail coworkers had a cop visit her at work, after our hours in full uniform–gun, cop car, partner, the whole nine. She got upset, thinking something happened to her family. Turns out it was some jackass whom she met at a bar a few weeks before and he found out where she worked from one of her friends and decided to drop in and say hello.

      She was mortified and scared and I ended up driving her home since she was too scared of walking in case he stopped again.

    6. Femme d'Afrique*

      This is really weird. How did he know that saying he was there for an interview would lead to an introduction to the person he followed into the building??

      I’m with Kathenus and Hope here: circulate his name (if you even got it) and call the cops if he shows up again.

      1. valentine*

        Assuming he did not stalk Amanda and she did not give her name or job via small talk: The interview lie, that he’s someone you have and want to help, got him into the staff area. From there, he could make up a reason or just say he was there to see her, and describe Amanda, especially if he had seen her that day, and it’s just natural for helpful you to go get her. After all, he’s a (presumably white) guy in a suit, so polite, friendly, etc.

        For the people saying how to avoid this: there are a million lies for cons to talk themselves into your good graces and at least one will make you fold. But just being a white guy, especially in a suit, still works.

    7. The Man, Becky Lynch*

      I’m not shocked that someone did this, some people are absolutely wildly out of line and that’s the kind of stuff that they do. He is probably in a suit because he was going somewhere, a conference or maybe he’s got one of those jobs that you just wear a suit to. Maybe he’s Barney Stinson!

      But yeah, you didn’t do anything wrong and I’m sorry that you’re rattled. You weren’t careless at all, what were you supposed to do? Deny he had an interview and turn him away? Only to find out that your boss did forget to tell you???

      No, you proceeded properly.

      However what happened after you sat him down and told Amanda he was there? Did she handle it or did she tell you that no, he didn’t have an interview and have you tell him to leave??

      If this was here, I’d be informed that was incorrect and that he was either in the wrong spot or he was delusional or trying to the “gumption” route. Some folks around here have confirmed they’ve heard about just calling up and saying you had a phone cal for an interview for a position, even though you didn’t. In an attempt to steamroller yourself into a job

    8. ..Kat..*

      I would talk with your manager and security about how to proceed in the future to prevent this. And what to do now to protect Amanda. Your company may have security procedures that you don’t know about. If not, this is a sign that you need more security and security procedures.

    9. pcake*

      Perhaps next time, you can get the name of the interview who’s coming in. Then, if another odd man says he has an interview, you’ll know it’s not the guy. You could seat him, then call security AND give Amanda the warning not to be seen till the guy is removed.

      Is he a company employee already? A random guy she got to talking to about her job at a coffee shop? If neither of these, how did he know who would be doing the interview?

    10. Miss Astoria Platenclear*

      Thanks, all. He gave his name was we found his photo on social media. Sent a warning to all staff.

  170. Parenthetically*

    “My other sitters have been getting busier and busier in their personal lives hence my husband and I are also looking for new babysitters. Not to sound rude but I don’t want to use what little time my sitters are available for me to pass off to someone else.”

    Literally wat.

    Am I confused? She’s looking for a sitter for the event you are ALL going to, right? The one you already have a sitter booked for, right? How on God’s earth does that infringe on “what little time my (*snort*) sitters are available” when you’re all going to be using their services SIMULTANEOUSLY? Like, are you worried Sarah is going to start “stealing” “your” sitters’ time in the future?

    I genuinely do not understand the problem with giving her contact info for a variety of childcare providers. “Staci” is coming to watch your kid. I absolutely understand why you wouldn’t want to double up Staci’s workload on the trip, especially because your kid loves her. But then you sometimes also hire “Marni” and “Jaqui”. Why in the world would you refuse to give Marni and Jaqui’s info to Sarah?

    This sounds so bizarre and unreasonable to me that I’m sure I must be missing something.

    1. montecristo1985*

      Some how I missed the original story that has everyone commenting on babysitters, but I can totally see giving out your babysitters number to someone in your social circle could be problematic seeing as how you will likely need them on the same occasions in the future.

  171. corporatefuture*

    My boyfriend was laid off in December and is still in the job hunting process. I know this is a slow process and can be emotionally draining (to say the least). After another rejection today, what can I do to support him? I truly feel so awful for him and don’t know how to keep telling him “it’s okay” and have it sound sincere. To be clear, it is sincere! Job hunting is brutal and awful, and I fully understand that not getting jobs isn’t usually a personal affront. But I’m not sure how to communicate that without sounding totally repetitive. Any suggestions?

    1. Me*

      Have you tried asking him how he wants you to support him? Like say exactly all of this.
      He may want you to be positive. He might want you to trash talk the rejecting company likes it’s a n ex. He may want to just vent and have you listen. He may want you to say nothing at all.

      1. Kira*

        > He might want you to trash talk the rejecting company likes it’s a n ex.

        Haha that would be my preference! But I agree, ask him

    2. The Man, Becky Lynch*

      This is a really personal experience and he needs to give you some insight into what he wants from you during his struggle.

      When my partner was job hunting, he needed space. He didn’t want to talk about rejections, he wanted to take it on the chin and wallow for his own time [usually the night] then get back out there to see what’s next. He knew I supported him. He knew that I loved him and cared no matter what but he didn’t want the sympathetic sounds and hugs/cuddles etc because his wounds hurt, my kisses couldn’t heal those booboos you know?

      So you have to really work with your BF and see what he wants and what helps and what doesn’t. It’s very much up to the individual and how they process rejection and stress.

      Whereas I like getting it out of the way and then distraction. So I vent a bit, then my partner changes the subject to “oooh shiny objects, let talk about zebras.” or whatever and go from there.

  172. a good mouse*

    Right out of college I started in my current job, 7 years ago. I’m job searching for the first time since then, and I realized my resume looks awfully sparse since I’ve only been at the one company. It seems silly to fill it out with internships from college, which were ages ago.

    Any suggestions on how to make my resume look, well, longer or more impressive?

    1. Maya Elena*

      I’d truncate, but not remove the college stuff, if you need to fill some space. For example, don’t wax lyrical about each tutoring job separately, but summarize them all under “various tutoring jobs” with a couple of bullet points. Also, include your degree.

      I also think you can indulge in pretty wording and formatting that people who need to SHRINK their resumes forgo – longer sentences, the full name of your title, extra lines for dates and locations, more white space, bigger margins, larger fonts on headings, addresses, and so forth. I’d say, if you can get it to 3/4 of a page, that is sufficient.

      You probably have enough judgment to figure out when you’ve visually crossed the threshold of “desperately trying to add content here and failing” or “way too little” – so stop there.

    2. Bismuth*

      You have 7 years’ worth of stuff you’ve done. Put in a few more bullet points showing what you do and listing accomplishments, awards, etc. Go back through old files — I’ll bet you’ve forgotten stuff. Even if it doesn’t make it in it can help give you examples for a job interview.

      Echoing Maya, pretty it up. Make the font a tiny bit bigger. So many resumes they want to shove everything in so they make the font small — yours will stand out for being legible. Older hiring managers will thank you! (I’m talking 12.5 or 13, nothing crazy.)

      Put in sections on software you know, work-related classes you’ve taken, languages, volunteer work, maaaaybe hobbies, especially if it’s something unusual or that highlights a skill you have. You don’t need them, but if you’ve got the room, it’s great to get something in that might catch someone’s eye.

  173. I'm curious!*

    What is the average amount of time you spent tailoring a cover letter/resume to the job description?

    Do you always make the time to run it by someone else?

    1. MayLou*

      I typically spend several hours thinking about and annotating the job description and person specification (when I say several, I mean 3-5, not 20+) and then less than an hour writing my actual application, but my impression is that this is a lot longer than would be standard in the USA. Then again, there are fewer steps to recruitment in my sector than sounds normal over there: job application (not usually a letter and resume, but a form with free text to explain how you meet the requirements) and one interview, so putting a lot of time and detail makes more sense than if you will have multiple interviews.

      I always, always get someone else to read over it and also send them the job description and person specification. Often this is just my wife, who will sometimes suggest things I’ve forgotten to include, but sometimes it’s friends with experience in the field or even friends from a completely different background, to check that what I wrote reads well even without background knowledge.

    2. Mazzy*

      It always takes way too much time….for me I always waste an hour on each application, most of that on the cover letter…..

  174. I Speak for the Trees*

    This doesn’t pertain to my current job, but it was a HUGE problem at my former workplace and is still going on there. A good friend assumed my former position, so I am asking for her, too.

    I was the admin assistant at tiny affiliate of a national non-profit and my work station was within earshot of my boss. Each time I was on the phone to a client/donor, she would listen closely to what I was saying and either yell comments out or evaluate my conversation after I hung-up. When she called out things during the conversation, I would have to either interrupt the speaker to listen to her or attempt to take in two simultaneous conversations. Sometimes this would really irritate the person on the other end of the line.

    The problem was that she didn’t really know what the other person was saying and would make assumptions. Think yelling out pricing reminders when the client just said, “I’m not interested in cost right now” or policy reminders when the client said, “I understand your policy of XYZ.” It made these conversations with clients/donors stilited and uncomfortable, but it also made me sound defensive when she would make remarks afterwards about what I said or didn’t say.

    How would you deal with this?

    1. Aurion*

      In the moment: “But [Client] wasn’t asking about any of that, they were asking about A and B.”

      And more broadly: “if you want to have a discussion afterwards about these phone calls, I’m happy to do so, but please don’t yell out comments in the middle of my calls. It’s distracting to me and irritating to the client, and is frequently off-topic since you can’t hear their end of the call.”

    2. AndersonDarling*

      When I hear the hollered comment Id interrupt the client, “Jenny Smith the CEO would like me to tell you . . .” If she hears her name being put into the conversation, it may stop. Or else the client will ask to speak with the CEO since she is there and available, and I’m sure that will put a quick stop to the annoyance.

    3. Glomarization, Esq.*

      This calls for some managing up about delegation. Every single time, I would put the caller on hold, using a phrase along the lines of “excuse me, would you hold on for just a moment while I get some information for you from Boss.” Then I’d physically get up and ask the boss if they would like to take the call themselves, telling the boss that I absolutely cannot accurately relay these comments to the caller. Boss can delegate the call to me, or Boss can handle the call on their own. Maybe a polite way to say that would be “I’m sorry, I can’t accurately relay all you’re saying to the caller. They’re talking to me in one ear and you’re talking to me in the other! Would you like to take this call, or would you like me to finish it?” Lather, rinse, repeat, even if it happens again during the same phone call.

      As for post-call “evaluation,” I’d ask Boss if they want me to call the person back with further information, or whether Boss would like to make that phone call.

  175. cheese please*

    How is anyone supposed to get a job that requires experience when you don’t have enough experience to get a job that will allow you to gain experience? I graduated in 2016 so have limited work experience (particularly in what I’d really like to do) and have been job hunting for close to 2 years. I have a part-time job in a field that I don’t want to stay in long-term (but was able to get the job because of much lower barriers to entry). However, all of the jobs I really want require experience I don’t have, and none seem willing to take on anyone that would require training. I’m eager and willing to learn, but get consistently get passed over for candidates with more experience for the positions where I do make it to the interview stage. Is there any way to escape this? It seems like just the world’s worst catch-22.

    2. MayLou*

      It is so frustrating, I hear you! I just got out of a two-year job hunt with this frustrating (quite literally just – I got a job offer today) and it felt at times like I was doomed to spend the rest of my life tutoring part time and being rejected from jobs.

      I think what worked for me was very slow, gradual progress. So I tutored while I was an undergrad, and when I left university I tutored a bit more. Then I applied to a job doing learning support in a school, through an education charity. I didn’t get the job, but they had a vacancy on a course training people to get a qualification to teach adults, so they sent me on that sort of on the off chance that it would be useful to them in the future (it wasn’t – they never came back to me with any work). That opened doors to cover teaching at a local college, and delivering courses to parents through another organisation.

      And THAT experience, as well as five months working in a children’s centre shortly after leaving university, got me the role I accepted today: part administrator (based on all the admin required in being a self-employed tutor working in and through multiple organisations) and part trainee money advisor. They saw potential and took a chance on me! I didn’t think it would ever happen but it has, and I believe it will for you as well. Just take opportunities as they arise, and be open to things that seem like they’re not a direct route to what you want to do, because you will definitely learn things and develop skills that you can draw on in the future.

    3. Luna*

      The typical Catch-22 situation! I have been in this for years. They don’t hire you without experience in a job, but you can’t get experience if you don’t get hired. No clue how to escape it. Just hope RNG is on your side.

  176. Marina Magdalena*

    I’m coming out of a long period of unemployment, during which I have been on tooth-unfriendly insurance — now my social teeth are a wreck and I’m facing internship interviews. I am fortunate that my mother has recently come into a small inheritance and is willing to invest in my mouth, but if no dentist can fit me in by the time interviewing starts, what do I do?

    1. Utoh!*

      Why not, in the first few minutes of introductions excuse the appearance of your teeth and let them know you are having it taken care of…that way it won’t be a distraction once the actual interview starts.

      1. Marina Magdalena*

        Thank you, I think I will. I could end up public-facing for some things, so if that does come up, I want them to know I’m working on it. I mean, if they have to stick me in the back doing filing until everything’s in place, great, I legit would love that too. :) Anything to get an internship to finish out this degree, and then go get work.

    2. Not All*

      Have you looked to see if there is a dental school near you? My ex needed an insane amount of work (would have been easily $15k even with out crappy dental insurance) and ended up getting it for under $2k. It probably took a little longer in terms of chair time but theyhad all the newest gadgets & did a great job.

      1. Marina Magdalena*

        The dental school is in such high demand that they’re booking initial consults into June-July at this point. They’re great, I’ve used them before, they are just about the best dentists in the city, and that’s why you can’t get an appointment unless you know exactly what the next six months look like for you — and I seldom do! Another reason I am really looking forward to just… having a job. Sameness.

        1. valentine*

          Get a first visit anywhere for X-rays, an assessment, and a cleaning, then book the long-term stuff with the school.

    3. ArtsNerd*

      Is it possible that while you are (understandably) self-conscious, it’s not distracting enough that any reasonable interviewer would care? It’s worth a perspective check from someone you trust (ideally someone not in your family). My bff just mentioned that she wouldn’t have any idea that I gained 15 pounds in 6 months except for the fact that I’ve talked about it with her, whereas I’m sharply aware of how my clothes don’t sit right and my old style is unflattering now — and expect other people to have seen the same.

      1. Marina Magdalena*

        I have to laugh because actually I don’t have interview clothes that fit quite right, either (five to ten pounds’ fluctuation on me is significant because I am a short). I understand that self-consciousness. It’s… these are front teeth and an eyetooth. I spend a lot of time looking quite solemn! I would like to be able to greet a client with a warm smile, given that if you’re coming to meet with a paralegal, you’re probably not in the best mood to begin with…!

        1. ArtsNerd*

          Gotcha! I think the quick mention is definitely the way to go in that case (and yeah I’m short too. High five!)

    4. Hope*

      Don’t say anything about it, and try not to worry about it. Unless you literally have visibly-missing front teeth, no one is going to be paying that much attention to your teeth. And if that *is* the case, then you just say you’re in the middle of getting some dental work done. They don’t need any other details.

      1. Marina Magdalena*

        I have three visibly-broken teeth that Medicaid wants me to pull and get dentures for. No bueno. I think “I’m getting the work done” should cover it, and I may look into whichever dentist *does* the work fitting me with flippers in case I actually have to smile at a client. I have other teeth that will be coming out but I am pushing those to the bottom of the priority list because these have to be first. (Our family’s got a genetic enamel thing; my dad had his first dentures by about 40. I’m 33.) It doesn’t help that America seems to have two tiers: OMG You Have Perfect Teeth and… everyone else!

    5. Turtlewings*

      Other people are probably not noticing it nearly as much as you are, and honestly, if they’re judging your ability to do the job based on the appearance of your teeth, that’s on them. Of course that kind of judgment is often subconscious but still, good bosses aren’t going to knock you out of the running because you have ugly teeth, any more than they would because you had an ugly face. That would be unfair, mean and irrelevant to the job.

  177. BeeGee*

    We have all had feelings of transitioning on to another job, with the ideal situation being you can stay at your current position until you have the next position ready. However, I feel like I’m working against time with no new job prospect currently, and my current role and small company feels like a sinking ship.
    At my small company, 1 out of 2 partners left and took half the business which has led to a lot of restructuring needed. My boss/remaining partner also decided to spin off another notable revenue generator for the business, due to his constant squabbles with the umbrella company we worked with on that business line.
    My boss always seems to be changing his business strategy every 3-6 months, which has made things even more frustrating and complicated over the past two years. All of these changes are the reason the other partner left, and frankly, it’s completely changed my job role and I do menial tasks instead of utilizing my skills that I was hired for. I always talk to my boss and complete these tasks in a timely manner, and always offer to help on other items in order to keep myself in good standing. I work remote and not on the client facing side, so it is not unusual for me not to be brought into certain tasks or projects when things involve that side of the business, and if things do get busy on that side, I can go some periods of time with minimal communication (but I often am working on a project so it’s not like I’m not working on something). However, these periods of silence have been increasing. There are only four employees left, with me being the only remote worker now and the other three at an office out of state. Given all the changes at the business, I am not sure if the lack of projects and communication is due to all the reorganization needed and client prioritization, or if they plan to let me go either due to budget constraints and/or change in role. Should I bring these concerns up to my boss to have a discussion about it? Would that raise a red flag to him? I am going on a week long vacation in less than two weeks so it makes it bad timing if I were let go or if I were to quit. Is there a benefit to leaving it to chance to be let go/fired to try and collect unemployment benefits, or should I try and quit ASAP or try and hold up until after my vacation? Has anyone had success in negotiating a severance package?

    1. Default Font Size*

      Maybe start smaller than “will they let me go” or “quit ASAP”. Start looking for a new job.
      If they let you go while you are looking, you can collect unemployment while you continue your search. Assume that your failing small company will fail and make plans to cushion the blow to your situation. Look for a job, network (if you liked old partner, maybe see if his company is hiring), take your vacation (which you earned, it is part of your benefits package, it is not a gift) and if you are let go, you can still negotiate severance.

      1. BeeGee*

        Oh for sure, I am definitely actively looking/applying to jobs given all this mess. Unfortunately, the partner who left is on his own besides an admin assistant and cannot take me on, which is a real bummer because I really liked working with him. Thanks for the advice, it has mitigated my worries a little; at the end of the day, you can’t control some situations that are outside of yourself!

  178. Jade*

    I’m an admin assistant. One of the professionals I support (not my supervisor) has what I feel is a harsh way of delivering feedback. You can see her get visibly frustrated and hear it in her voice. She’s not very good at hiding it or else doesn’t care if she does. After I’ve said something like “I’m sorry. That didn’t occur to me. I’ll make sure to do it that way next time,” she’ll add some jabs in like ” Yeah, well, cause I wouldn’t have done what you did. At all.” I get it! You don’t need to tell me twice when I’ve acknowledged my mistake and told you I’ll be mindful of it. It’s starting to feel like she’s more trying to make me feel bad than correct my behavior. Is there a way I can broach this with her or my supervisor? It’s getting hard for me not to take her feedback in an emotional way and it’s affecting my work and my self-esteem.

    1. anonymoushiker*

      Is your supervisor a reasonable person? Do you think they’d be able to either give light to the situation or advocate for you? Based on the words this person used, it might be better to go that route, even if it’s just to get a perspective shift. When I had an issue similar to this (I have a co-worker who is abrupt and can sound kind of mean without intending to), I talked to my supervisor about how the interactions and how I felt about it. She couldn’t do anything to change his behavior but did elucidate that he was all bark and that she would call him if I needed something from him. The combination helped me figure it out and we’re on really good terms now.

    2. Memyselfandi*

      I think you can talk to your supervisor about it. Alison is so good at providing scripts. I should think you might be able to find something on this website. Others who comment here are very good at finding relevant posts, so let’s hope someone else responds. Getting feedback in that way sounds very unpleasant, but it is her problem, not yours. I always try to remember that when someone acts unkindly, they usually do not feel very good about themselves. It helps me not take it personally.

    3. Lilysparrow*

      I don’t really have a script for addressing this outside your head, but this person is incredibly immature.

      These are the kind of snotty digs a young teenager makes to try to act superior to someone. It’s really pathetic that a grown-up professional would act that way to anyone, much less to support staff. She has some significant inner deficiencies.

      I’ve never actually said, “Good grief, what’s *wrong* with you?” out loud to someone I support. But I have let it show on my face. And it made them dial back, at least temporarily.

      And I have, once, shut the door on someone’s office and told them quietly, “You have no call to speak to me that way, and it is not acceptable.” But you can only do that if you have plenty of capital with the person who’s in charge of hiring/firing.

    4. ..Kat..*

      I would suggest that you instead say, “I’m sorry. I was not aware that you wanted it that way. What can we do going forward to make sure I have the details that I need to give you the results you want?” And if this does not result in getting better instructions, can you ask one of the other professionals that you support how to deal with this? “I am having difficulty getting Snarkette to give me clear enough instructions to complete a project to her satisfaction. Do you have any suggestions on how to work better with her?”

      I think the way you are saying it is taking too much blame on yourself. She is not giving good instructions. Also, she just sounds like a mean, nasty person.

  179. aiya*

    I think I just got a chance to re-do an awful interview?

    I had an awful interview yesterday, and it was largely because I was severely underprepared. I thought I was well prepared but once the interview started, it became really obvious that I did not research the specific elements of the job/organization that the interviewers were looking for (It was my fault for not doing that research). One of the interviewers was really frustrated and lectured me on how I should’ve prepared better. But in general, I felt like I didn’t really click with anyone on the panel and that the position/team wasn’t a great fit for my personality.

    Just this morning, I received an email from them, asking me to come back next week and “have a more casual meeting over coffee” with the panel. I’m extremely SHOCKED that they’d want me back considering my performance yesterday, and I’m pretty intimidated to be honest. Does anyone have any advice on how to prepare for this meeting?

    1. BeeGee*

      I would definitely take the time to do more research about the firm and it’s role, and if you can think about ways to inject industry or role specific language (making sure you understand the terminology!) I find that has always helped in coming off as more competent in interviews. Firms also usually like it if you have some questions in mind to ask them at the end of the interview, as it shows you have done your homework. Don’t be too nervous, because sometimes you feel like you bomb an interview and it’s just being overly critical of oneself: don’t sell yourself short, be confident you are a good potential employee. And if you don’t mesh with current workers or culture…unfortunately you can’t really change that and sometimes it’s a blessing in disguise so that you don’t end up in a role/company where you may be a bad fit.

    2. fposte*

      Obviously school up on the job and even more so the org, since I think they might be interested in reframing the job or pointing you toward a different position. But also don’t just dismiss the “didn’t really click” early vibes just because they reached out–this might not be a comfortable fit for you, and you get to judge that to be so no matter what they think. This is a mutually exploratory conversation, not a second chance you need to be grateful for.

    3. CatCat*

      Well, do YOU want to give them a second shot at this? You didn’t click with them and, imo, it was not their business to get frustrated and lecture you on interview prep. That’s a professionalism red flag about that interviewer.

      If you want to give them a second shot, I’d just re-review what you already looked at and brush up on the material I knew I had been deficient on. But honestly, it sounds like their performance as interviewers sucked so I’d be going in with a lot of questions of my own based on that knowledge. Alison’s book has a lot of great examples of questions to ask interviewers.

      2. Siege*

        I agree that it was inappropriate to lecture you. I would say if you need this job, or even if you simply have time and are curious,to go ahead. Take the things they said in the interview that you didn’t know and research them, trying to put them in context with the job position and company history and outlook. Good luck! Listen to your gut about not clicking with anyone.

      3. aiya*

        honestly, part of me wants to go just out of curiosity, but another part of me is terrified that I’ll disappoint them and get lectured at again. I’ve worked for demanding managers before, which caused me extreme stress and anxiety, so I’ve learned to be selective in choosing future managers.

        it’s also a very small niche field, so I’m afraid that not doing well in this second meeting might be bad for my reputation. but thank you to everyone who commented. I’ll certainly brush up on my research for this org (and def keep the “not clicking” vibe in the back of my head as I head into this second meeting)

        1. Not A Manager*

          This is not positive self-talk. If you choose to go for the call-back, treat it like a call-back.

          We live in a world where people write gleeful articles about not hiring someone SOLELY because they didn’t send a thank-you email. A post today mentioned not hiring someone because the manager didn’t like her laugh.

          These people, by contrast, were so impressed with you that they are giving you a second chance at the interview, in a “more casual” context presumably meant to put you at your ease. YOU MUST BE A ROCK STAR.

          Research the hell out of the job, but go in there thinking “these people REALLY want to get to know me,” not “I’m going to get scolded again.”

          1. valentine*

            But not if you just want to end on a positive note or to correct the record.

            Just because the first one didn’t go well doesn’t mean it didn’t tell you everything you need to know to close that door.

  180. Mimmy*

    Business cards for networking!

    I went to a small industry luncheon on Wednesday and realized I did not have any current business cards! This thought was inspired by a recent Facebook post from a friend who created two sets of networking cards with slightly different targets. So, I was wondering what *exactly* should go on these cards?

    These would not be cards given to you by your employer; I’m talking cards that are purely for networking purposes. Aside from contact info, I’d want to highlight what field(s) I’m interested in and the type(s) of work I want to pursue.

    Thoughts / ideas are welcome!

    1. BRR*

      I might be bad at networking, but I think of my business cards as a way for someone to look me up on LinkedIn and any further networking would go from there. But I’d include name, email, maybe a phone number, a website if that’s applicable in your field. I wouldn’t put a ton of information on it. I think of business cards as a way to reach out, and including a what fields and types of work seems like a lot.

    2. ArtsNerd*

      I think putting just a couple of words mentioning your field, something like:
      Mimmy Lastname
      Contact Info
      Teapot Marketing

      I also like to make sure there’s a space for folks to make a note on your card to remind them of what you talked about. When I walk away from a conference with a stack of new cards, it’s huge to be able to see “aging audiences” and remember why I wanted that person’s contact info to begin with. Not everyone makes those notes, but it’s a game-changer for me.

    3. MissDisplaced*

      For creative or freelance fields, you’d likely want a link to your website or portfolio.
      But otherwise, your contact information, LinkedIn etc.

      Like:
      Daenerys Stormborn Targaryen
      Queen of the Andals and the First Men
      Breaker of Chains, Protector of the Seven Kingdoms
      Mother of Dragons
      http://www.ironthronequeen.com

      Ok, maybe not that much, but you get my drift.

      1. Arctic*

        But, ideally, unlike Dany, you shouldn’t by an megalomaniac who uses made up titles she didn’t earn.

  181. Anonymous Programmer*

    If someone senior tells you to change something, and you’re not sure why, what’s the best way to ask without sounding defensive?

    An intern asked me this the other day, because he was told to change something in his code review and he didn’t understand what the improvement was. He wanted to know what was wrong so he didn’t keep making the same mistake! I knew, so I told him, but he told me he was nervous about asking the original person because he’d had some feedback that he gets a bit too defensive during his code reviews (true IMO, and common for junior devs) and didn’t want to come across like he was second-guessing the feedback. I told him to say something along the lines of “Sure, making the change! Would you mind explaining a little more so I know better for next time?” Any other thoughts?

    1. Siege*

      I think that is good advice! Maybe also take into consideration if he needs to ask it every time, or if he has to ask it during the code review itself? Sometimes things will become clear in the meantime, and if he waits a little bit (but before he does the same task again), it’ll give him time to consider his words and tone, and show his reviewer he has taken time to think about it.

      1. Anonymous Programmer*

        Oh, that’s actually good advice, and now that I think about it, that’s how *I* often handle this sort of situation– I just make the correction, google around a bit, and if I can’t figure it out I sometimes bring it up in the kitchen as we’re waiting for the kettle to boil. I’d say something like “Hey, you’d mentioned the other day about using ArrayList instead of LinkedList, and I wasn’t able to find much info when I looked it up. Could you tell me a bit more about the advantages?” I find it easier to nail that ‘trying to learn’ tone out loud rather than through text.

        I should mention the googling to him too, since the thing he asked me about it something that would be really easy to look up.

    2. CupcakeCounter*

      “I can absolutely make that change. For future projects, can you provide the reasoning behind the change? I find it really helps me reset my thinking when I have a little more detail on the “why” things are done a certain way and I am less likely to revert back to my default style.”
      I would also maybe put something in there about if now isn’t a great time could they put something on the calendar or send an email at a more convenient time.

      1. Triplestep*

        A lot of this actually would still sound defensive to me. I would rather hear “will do” rather than “yes I can make that change” which implies “Yeah, I can do it even though I don’t want to/don’t agree with you.”

        “Provide reasoning” – same thing. I liked the original wording (“would you mind explaining”) or even “Could I ask a bit more about this” and add something about how it will help him the next time the situation arises. I would feel totally put on the spot if a junior person asked or told me to “provide reasoning.”

        It’s great that he asked how to ask! I hope you were able to convey that to him.

        1. Anonymous Programmer*

          Yeah, I agree. I like “Can I ask a bit more about this?”

          I hope so too. He’s eager to make a good impression, and I feel a bit badly about how things went at the beginning; there are some “norms” around the review process that I don’t think anyone really explained to him initially. Some interns just kind of pick those things up intuitively, whereas others need a bit of coaching to understand.

          For example… a senior person posts a code review, another senior person says “Have you considered Z approach?”, the original person says “I think that would be better, but would require a big infrastructure overhaul that doesn’t work with the upcoming deadline– let’s make a note and come back to this next quarter”, and moves on. Intern sees this. A few days later, someone senior says “Hey, you’re not handling that error case quite right, you need to do X instead” (where X takes, like, 15 minutes) and intern says “Oh, this needs to be done by the end of the week, I’ll fix that another time”. This wouldn’t fly for anyone, senior or junior, but I can see where the first interaction led him to think that was normal.

    3. ..Kat..*

      “Can you tell me more about the reasoning for this change so that I get it right the first time?”

      1. ..Kat..*

        Also, ask if there are references, tutorials, guidelines, whatever that will help you understand.

  182. cmcinnyc*

    I’m handling a coworker problem in a new-for-me way, partly thanks to reading AAM, and it’s very uncomfortable. My tendency to directly confront a certain coworker on his shadiness has not gone well. So instead I’m silently enforcing certain boundaries. For example, he asked me do to 2 things that are indeed my job and I cheerfully did them and did them well. He then tried to tack on a 3rd task that is not my bailliwack and I’m just leaving it. His tactic is to cc me on things and “assign” them to me in a cryptic way that requires a lot of follow up and interaction to even figure out precisely what he wants. The boundary I’m enforcing is that something doesn’t magically become my responsibility because you cc me on an email. I just haven’t done it or said anything about it. I don’t feel like playing 20 questions to tease out what your need is and THEN explaining that he should do this himself while he sulks and alternately insults me and praises me as he tries to find the magic words to make me do it. This is going to blow up on him next week. I’m feeling uncomfortable just letting it. He uses my sense of responsibility to coerce cooperation he really isn’t entitled to (and he does this to others). So here I sit on Friday afternoon, knowing this will keep brewing in his undone tasks and then bite him on Tuesday. It’s not going to cause any real trouble–or I’d do it. He’s going to drop a ball, that’s all. (I do not report to this guy, btw. He’s just always on the lookout for someone he can sleaze his work onto.) But man this is super uncomfortable!

    1. Siege*

      That sounds really frustrating! I’m a pretty direct person too, and his behavior would drive me up a wall. Good luck!

      1. valentine*

        He sure works hard at not working!

        I hope you can learn to let this go as soon as you set aside the email.

    2. Camellia*

      When I’m in a situation like this, making me uncomfortable, I find it helps to come up with possible scenarios and practice what I will say and how I will react, if and when the time comes. In your case, I’m imagining ‘innocent expression’ and appropriate words if he has a mild response, ‘sharp gaze’ (and appropriate words) if he tries to throw me under the bus, and so forth.

      Just keep breathing through the discomfort. You can do this!

      1. cmcinnyc*

        That’s helpful. I can imagine him fuming “but I told you to do it!” To which the response is, “No, you cc’ed me on an email to people I don’t know about a project I’m not working on. I don’t know what you expected me to intuit, but you didn’t tell me anything.” And breathing…

        1. Utoh!*

          Yes, and *keep* saying that…! I hate it when the lazy asses bait the responsible of us and try to use that as leverage for us to do their work. It’s such a disgusting practice but it’s alive and well in many organizations. Upper management does not give a sh*t how work gets done just as long as it does without anyone complaining. It’s when the bottom line or some other line is affected that it’s noticed. I have learned to let the chips fall where they may now, and force myself not to worry about it (I usually have a million other things to do to keep my mind occupied!).

          Just use one of the the AAM credos: “Not my circus, not my monkeys!”

    3. ScaramoucheScaramouche*

      I know you say direct confrontation hasn’t gone very well, but have you tried direct neutral boundary setting? Because if you want to stop this pattern and protect yourself from being painted as not getting things done by others, you could simply reply, “Jim, I want to be clear: I will not be responding to or taking on any work related to this email because it’s not in my wheelhouse, you haven’t clearly asked me to take anything on, and I don’t do work that isn’t in my bailiwick unless the request comes from my manager.”

    5. Lilysparrow*

      I would probably reply back to the email with something like, “I think you cc’ed me by mistake. This isn’t my project or my client.”

      1. ..Kat..*

        I think this is a good way to handle it. Also, keep good documentation of what he is doing and your response.

        Please update us next week. Good luck.

      2. Troutwaxer*

        And maybe CC his supervisor. And make sure you print out the emails and take them home, or photograph them on the screen, or whatever you need to do to have a record.

  183. Siege*

    Can I get some advice on this? I applied to a temp agency last Thursday, and I’d like to give them a call to let them know I’m open to any length assignments (based a an open thread comment a week or two ago). Is this a good idea? Will it just annoy them? What should I say? Any advice or personal experiences with temp agencies are much appreciated! It’s Robert Half, if that makes a difference.

    2. cmcinnyc*

      You can call temp agencies. Every single person they deal with is actively looking for work (whether for one day or permanently) so they field a lot of “Anything today?” calls. If you call multiple times a day they’ll learn your number and divert you to voicemail, but since it’s been a week you can do a *brief* follow up call just reiterating that you’re ready to work and open to any length assignment.

    3. She's One Crazy Diamond*

      I used to work through a temp agency and they actually wanted us to reach out to them once a week if we were still looking to confirm we hadn’t already found something else.

      1. twig*

        This was my experience too — I just called in once a week to check in. BUT this was 10+ years ago. (I don’t know how temp companies might have changed in the mean time)

        1. T. Boone Pickens*

          Yeah I’d check in once a week to keep top of mind. When I was doing temp staffing I definitely had a file of folks I could call when short term assignments/emergency starts would come up.

  184. Jen in Oregon*

    Instead of giving Sarah the contact info for your sitters, contact your sitters with the parameters of the job and ask if any of them are available and interested (or knows of some one else that is.) If one is, great! If none are, you can honestly tell Sarah that you’ve asked every sitter you know and they are not available.

  185. Piano Girl*

    My husband applied for a position at a community college to teach Theatre near to where we are moving. The application consisted of a series of screens, including attaching various documents and his transcripts. Several weeks ago, he received an email, indicating that they were not interested in him. Fair enough, but the job listing is still up. This is driving him crazy, as he would be fantastic in the position. He has mentioned trying to get ahold of someone there, to see if they would give him another chance. He had also applied to be an adjunct professor in the hopes that maybe that will get him an interview. At this point, we haven’t heard back. Any suggestions??

    1. MissDisplaced*

      I think you and your husband just need to let this go. I get it’s frustrating when you think you’re perfect for a job, but it’s just the way job hunting is. If he hasn’t heard back, he hasn’t heard back. Let it go. And I wouldn’t recommend applying for another position hoping it’s a way in… unless of course he’s really and truly IS interested in the adjunct position.

    2. Kathenus*

      I think the best he could hope for, and I don’t know that there’s a high probability of this, is to reach out and ask the question ‘If possible, I’d be interested in any feedback on skills or experiences I could gain to make me a stronger candidate for future openings’. They probably won’t respond, but if they do it would be actionable information that might help for the future. Asking them to reconsider isn’t likely to work, and could reflect badly upon him. I’d let it go or try something more along the lines of requesting feedback. Frustrating, I know, best of luck in the future for his search.

    3. Bunny Girl*

      Universities and colleges take FOREVER to get through their hiring process unfortunately. They can also take a really long time to take their postings down. The position could already be filled, or they could be moving in another direction. As far as the other position, I would just keep waiting unfortunately. Sorry I know it’s frustrating, but I used to help coordinate the hiring process for our University department and it’s a real process.

    4. ..Kat..*

      I recommend that he get involved in a local theater group in your new town. This will give him contacts for networking and finding out the lay of the land at the local community college.

  186. It's Pronounced Bruce*

    I have two totally opposing reactions to this. One is that I absolutely get not wanting to share your contacts with her because you have enough difficulty getting on their books as is, and that I understand not being sure if you’re comfortable with adding another kid to the arrangement you already have for the trip. I personally wouldn’t feel great crossing the work-personal streams here with some of this.

    The other reaction, though, is that you have the ability to help someone who needs (and it sounds like really deserves) it, for the personal cost of some very slight inconvenience, so maybe you kinda should. It’d be one thing if this was a random coworker, but this is someone who has been working closely with you and really putting in work to help train and cover for you for months.

    Also: This isn’t really your decision, it’s the decision of the sitters who may or may not want to / be able to take this job anyway. You should ask the sitter you’ve hired for the trip how she feels about the possibility first, as she might say she doesn’t want to take on a second kid and then that’s really that. Ask some of your other contacts if they might be available for such a thing, as it seems likely they won’t be, and see if anyone is even available and willing to have their info shared with your coworker. It may easily turn out that no one can even take this on, and you can let her know that. But if someone is available and wants you to put them in touch with her, I think you should just do it. Imagine if you were in Sarah’s position and how you would want to be treated.

  187. Queenie*

    What in your opinion is appropriate for the amount of times a supervisor has to be available for coverage? (ie. if a direct report is ill etc in a customer facing position). I work part time (under 25 hours a week) and have 3 direct reports and am paid hourly, no on call or anything like that. My boss firmly believes I should be available at all times to drop everything and fill in if my direct reports cannot work, which has happened a lot this past fall. On average I ended up covering a minimum of one of their shifts every week, and frankly I am burnt out. If I want to go away for my regularly scheduled days off my boss expects I connect with another coworker who agrees to be available if needed while I am gone, even if I drive to the next town which is only 45 minutes away. Any time I want to leave town, or go somewhere with minimal cell reception, or a movie(!!) I have to clear it with her. And if I am needed it is expected of me to drop everything and come back! My partner and I went away for the weekend to a city about 3 hours away and one of my direct reports fell ill and was unable to cover her shift, my boss called me and told me to drive back and cover it. Luckily another direct report was able to change her plans and fill in but is this normal? My direct reports are good, since the new year and some restructuring I have only had to cover one shift in 4 months while the nasty stomach flu was sweeping through our organization. This is my first time in a supervisor position like this with client facing direct reports and I am unsure what is expected of me because frankly I am getting sick of this! Job searching has been a nightmare, its been a stressful and frustrating 4 months of rejections and awful interviews.

    1. anonymoushiker*

      Ouch. I haven’t had that kind of role before, but it sounds like there ought to be some better coverage plans in place, if coverage is an issue.

    2. BRR*

      That level of being on call might require getting paid for it. Maybe look into that then point that out? I would maybe try saying this isn’t feasible and put together a better coverage plan. I don’t know what a typical amount of coverage would be but for a part time role to be this available is asking too much of you.

      1. Queenie*

        That’s the annoying part, it’s really not that much coverage just in an emergency! All 3 of my direct reports are casual, but some have challenges with schedules where they can’t always cover in an emergency situation like someone calling in sick or having to leave halfway through. But my boss believes I should always be available for an emergency situation because I am a supervisor, and that my plans get cancelled if something happens. I get as a supervisor this can happen, but the sheer volume it’s happening is driving me nuts. Three weeks ago, on my day off my phone died while I was out and one of my direct reports called with a question, not an emergency just simple that they knew the answer to – the next day my boss reamed me out because I didn’t answer my phone.
        It’s not like I’m scheduled to be on call, it was never part of the agreement when I accepted the position, these are on my regularly scheduled days off that this happens

    3. A Non E. Mouse*

      and am paid hourly, no on call or anything like that

      What you are describing IS being on call, and you are not being paid appropriately for it.

      Your movements are being restricted, and you are not able to use your scheduled time off in the way you’d prefer, so you should be getting paid for any of the time you are expected to drop everything and come back *if* someone were to call in.

      1. ..Kat..*

        You are on call 24/7. This is ridiculous. At a minimum, I would expect to be getting time and a half for this.

    4. Siege*

      This is not normal. As an hourly employee, I’m willing to bet you’re not getting paid enough to deal with this. I work part time hourly at a bug company, and my supervisors are absolutely not expected to do this. Your boss is being unreasonable, and unwise in the long run, since it is guaranteed to burn employees out! I’ve got my fingers crossed for your job search!

    5. Kathenus*

      Your boss is an ass. As has been mentioned, this is not normal and you should not be responsible for this. I’d definitely be looking elsewhere to get out when you can. The unfortunate part is you can certainly push back and refuse to be on call, let her know your every move, etc. – and to be clear I absolutely would push back on this if it were me – but she then has the power to decide she doesn’t want you in that position.

      I think it’s highly likely what she’s requiring violates some labor laws, so you might want to do some online searching through federal and state departments of labor to see if you are due compensation to be on call like this, and if so, start claiming it. I’d also document the time spent taking phone calls to arrange coverage and adding these to your time sheet – let her know that you’ve discovered that not doing so violates labor law and of course the company doesn’t want to be liable for that, or something along those lines.

      I think at the end of the day this might be a case of your boss sucks and isn’t going to change, unfortunately; so hopefully you can find something else soon.

      1. Queenie*

        Thank you I will! I will start documenting it but I am not sure about the time sheet, I know I’m not getting paid nearly what I should but our organization is going through a serious rough patch with funding and staffing and I’m already fearful for my job

    6. Bunny Girl*

      I used to work a retail job and we had “on call” shifts. It was such nonsense. I honestly think that unless your job involves actual emergencies (like life or death ones) you don’t need people on call. We had to call our store 1-2 hours before a shift and they would tell us if we were needed or not, so we basically couldn’t make any plans. This wasn’t explained well (if at all) before we agreed to take the job, and I thought about quitting when I heard about it. I didn’t last for very long. Oddly enough even though they demanded that we be flexible and on our toes all the time, if we asked for a little flexibilty in the schedule, we were told no.

      Queenie, what would happen if you said “No I’m sorry I can’t drive back three hours to cover a shift?” Or if you just didn’t answer your phone on your day off. I think you need to look at moving on up in the world because, as another user mentioned, your boss is indeed an ass.

      1. Queenie*

        I honestly don’t know, I’ve been too scared to say no. Unfortunately due to personal circumstances we cannot afford for me to lose my job, and I don’t trust my boss not to do something rash out of spite! I’ve been searching continuously for 4 months and nothing.. it’s extremely difficult because this is NOT the job I accepted or signed up for, I was never supposed to be customer facing!

        1. valentine*

          You’re essentially barred from any time off. Your boss is wrong about supervisors covering; that’s what staff is for. You’re understaffed by at least one person and they can add one or have an on-call staff member who only does this emergency work, though I doubt there’s a true business need to have every shift fully staffed. There’s no good reason your boss couldn’t adopt a fire station model.

          Firing you would give you back control of your time, which is the last thing your boss wants, so I think the risk is less than you think and you can push back. There have been some letters on this, with a lot of information about when you need to be paid. Search for “engaged to wait” or “waiting to be engaged”.

          I hope you can escape soon.

    7. The Man, Becky Lynch*

      This is some retail level nonsense that you’re dealing with.

      You’re only scheduled to work 25hrs a week but they want to act like you’re a salaried, exempt manager? Hellllllllllllll nah. This boss is truly lacking in business skills to put it as nicely as possible.

      He needs to schedule you full time and pay you for it if he wants you to be available full time. End of story. But then you have to get benefits and their costs would go up…boohoo that’s business. Your boss is a big ol’ flop of a boss. I hope you find something better soon!!!

  188. Lynne879*

    Since we have a lot of non-profit readers here, does anyone have any advice on how to advertise a fundraiser when you’re a small non-profit?

    I volunteer at a small non-profit that’s hosting a fundraiser next month, but there’s a high chance that it will be cancelled if we don’t sell more tickets fast. We have only 2 full-time employees that are very busy (they’re still trying to find sponsors). I’ve done posts on social media, submitted events on online event calendars, and I’ve suggested sending out our fundraiser postcards to public areas (libraries, visitors centers) and I’ve been told they haven’t worked.

    Do you guys have any other suggestions?

    1. Amber Rose*

      Do you work with any other organizations that might help push the event? Our bitty non-profit has ties with a couple other groups and there’s like a mutual advertising friendship.

      Maybe see if some local radio stations might mention something.

    2. Glomarization, Esq.*

      If you haven’t already, alert your board and ask them to sell tickets. One duty of board membership is usually participation in fundraising. As an example, often board members will give themselves a sales quota of 5 or 10 or a dozen tickets for their organization’s annual big event.

      1. Lilysparrow*

        Yes, our board members each buy at least one table at the gala dinner and give or re-sell the tickets, and they ask their contacts to buy as well.

        Do you have an email list of supporters you can appeal to for help selling tickets? Or a natural audience of affiliated nonprofits or groups with parallel or complimentary interests?

        IE, a faith-based nonprofit I work with cross-promotes events with houses of worship and other charities that also work with moms & kids.

        Another I follow that works on providing hands-on STEAM and job training for youth, cross-promotes with scholarship programs and arts programs.

        Do you have any groups like that who could reshare and promote your posts, or post/hand out fliers?

        Coffee shops and other local businesses? Lots of those have bulletin boards. Maybe college bulletin boards, depending on the nature of the org and the event?

        And piggybacking on the mention of local radio, have you done any old-fashioned PR around the event? Any local small newspapers, local TV news, or neighborhood/city-interest FB groups you could send a press release to? You can always come up with some kind of story angle if you put your mind to it.

        Old-media isn’t sexy, but older people tend to have more free time and disposable income, and they are the backbone of a solid donor base.

    3. MissDisplaced*

      This is typically where email marketing comes in–you didn’t mention email. Do you have a list? If you do, send out invites where they can purchase tickets directly through the email (Constant Contact is good for this).

      If there is no email list, make sure you begin cultivating one for next year’s fundraisers. Have ways for people to sign up on your website and social pages, where they input their email addresses. Sorry, that may not help you at this point.

      Can you partner with a local college or university? Local news and radio. Perhaps local businesses (if there is a connection).

      1. Lynne879*

        I know they send emails to people that have our paid memberships (We do have a lot of paid memberships, but I think at this point any members who would buy a ticket have already gotten one). I think for next year, we’ll implement email marketing more by sending out reminders a week before ticket prices are raised.

        Partnering with local colleges is a good idea, same thing with the local businesses, I know the director has tons of connections. (He might have reached out to some of them already, but I can still double check).

        1. valentine*

          You need wider and more email lists, but I don’t know who to suggest. Where do people with that kind of money go? Are you engaging with them there?

      2. Bismuth*

        Seconding local news and radio (it should be free). Also, what is your board doing? For lots of nonprofits that’s part of the board’s job — they often have a bigger network of people who can afford to do it.

        If you have any friends at other nonprofits ask if they’ll use social media to promote the event. Retweets are free. Partner agencies and United Way are especially good, since you push them to do a little more.

    4. ArtsNerd*

      No specific suggestions that haven’t been mentioned here but if you’re not already in there, the Nonprofit Happy Hour facebook group is a goldmine of knowledge about this kind of thing. If you search the group, I know you’ll find similar questions that have been asked in the past, as well as at least a few solid replies if you post it new. (But I suggest you search first.)

  189. Flexibility Before the Offer*

    I am in the lead up stage to a formal offer for an internal position and would like to are my need for flexibility (for both medical and mental health reasons) before everything is finalized. I currently have a very good reputation and want to keep it so it is important to me that the person I will be working for know that I need flexibility as part of the deal. I have been pursued for this position if it matters. How do I bring this up when I meet in person on Monday?

    The location is 20 minutes farther away. I will be late twice a week (by an hour) and need to leave early once a week. I will try to move the morning appointments earlier if I can as time slots become available. I need to leave 30 minutes early just due to the additional distance. Not moveable, but should end by the end of the year.

    The most challenging is that I have a medical treatment that I have been doing while working from home once a week, but I have been unavailable during treatment, so effectively working part-time on that day. I am considering my options for this one. Is there even a way to make this work without sounding terrible?

    1. BRR*

      Since they reached out to you and you’re internal, you’re in a better position to do this earlier in the hiring process. You could ask about flexibility without specifics as your current position has it. Or you could wait until the offer and say you have a reoccurring appointment and ask if that can be accommodated. I would also offer something to make up those hours like staying late or adding them onto another day.

  190. Kyrielle*

    DiSC with a team, to encourage understanding and communications improvements. Anyone done it? Thoughts?

    1. merp*

      I had to do this once. It’s probably as credible as any work personality thing which is to say, not really. My results were fine, though? It was a silly way to spend time as a team but relatively inoffensive to me.

    2. Elizabeth West*

      Exjob required us to do it. But the trainer also told us not to take it seriously, as it was just a starting point for understanding different communication styles. She also said people can change over time, giving an example where one person tested as one thing because he had a ton of personal stress but then came back to it again and scored totally different.

      I mean, it got me away from my desk for a while, and I used the crayons to draw a cute picture of a pirate cat that hung in my cube. Honestly, these things are expensive for something that’s no more useful than a horoscope, IMO.

    3. Sam Foster*

      Did this at two previous employers. Neither was set up to do anything about the results and didn’t have a culture to support different communication styles. At one company it was actively used to negatively rate people for having a result in the minority.

  191. Jack Be Nimble*

    One of the executive-level roles at my workplace has been open for over a year. I’ll work closely with this role once it’s filled, so I asked my boss about the timeline for hiring, and she told me in confidence that there are layoffs coming down the pike and they’re holding off until after those have taken place. The layoffs won’t affect my team, but this is troubling.

    1. ..Kat..*

      The layoffs may affect your team eventually. Might be a good time to update your resume and at least see what is out there. Good luck.

  192. Anonthistime*

    I’m terrible at case studies/guesstimating exercises – how does one become good at them?

    1. Kathenus*

      Practice. Come up with your own scenarios, maybe with a friend/spouse/coworker, and practice brainstorming them until it becomes more comfortable. It’s like anything, the more you do it the more confidence you have.

  193. Work Samples*

    I applied for a job and the recruiter contacted me asking for work samples that could only be developed using expensive software that I am licensed to use through my current job. I have some work that I’ve done which doesn’t contain confidential company or client information. I blurred the logo, removed all company mention and disabled content copying. I’m planning to send this over via a secure link where I can turn off access. I’m still nervous though about submitting these samples.

    1. Anonthistime*

      Is there any way you could just redact the info? (Like replace client names with “Company A”)

      1. Work Samples*

        There’s actually no client data in the samples I’m sending over. The client data that I do have, there’s no way I would share that. All I’m sharing is samples that contains information that would already be accessible if someone would want to take the time to learn about the topic covered.

      2. Work Samples*

        Mainly I’m nervous because I have a feeling if my current work ever found out, I would be in big trouble.

        1. valentine*

          For this reason and the work licensing, I don’t think it’s okay. Would they consider it an ethical breach worthy of discipline or even termination? (Maybe reply with a link in case Alison has time to weigh in?)

          There have been many letters about proprietary samples, but I don’t recall enough details for search terms.

  194. Define Micromanaging*

    Regular poster, but anon for this.

    I manage two sets of employees – one set is performing well and then my inherited set is underperforming. To try to get the B team up to our usual standards, I’ve asked for more frequent updates on status, challenges, to provide feedback, guidance, etc.

    Generally, I’d say I take a hands off approach (and do with Team A). Once we’re aligned on the desired outcome and timeline, I let them do their thing with an open door to come brainstorm. This team has a more well-developed sense of when to loop managers/senior team.

    Team B has said I’m a micromanager. I define micromanager as someone who has a high need for control, telling reports what to do, how to do, when to do it. Generally speaking, I prefer more communication than less, but don’t care to get into the nitty gritty. I’m wonder if my perspective of Team B is clouding my normal style or if they’re just not used to having someone hold them accountable.

    Which brings me to my question…how do you define a micromanager?

    1. Tabby Baltimore*

      You can go look at Trish Pratt’s 7 traits of a micromanager here: https://trishpratt.com/working-for-a-micromanager/ Also, the commenter Amber Rose in the March 12 AAM column really nailed it, I think: “This isn’t micromanaging, it’s training,” and I’d definitely go look at SierraSkiing’s great comment about the same column (https://www.askamanager.org/2019/03/i-manage-a-horrible-micromanager.html#comment-2383845), who has a great script you can borrow for the next time you talk to Team B about their performance.

      1. valentine*

        Fergusia (letter in that second link) is a great example, what with the time- and soul-sucking tasks and self-sabotaging punishment. People who need extra guidance often feel micromanaged. If it wouldn’t sacrifice A, can they rotate pairing with B members to lead by example? Either way, ride out the accusations.

    2. MissDisplaced*

      I define micromanager as someone who has no faith/trust in the employees’ ability to do the job, and as such requires constant oversight and/or control over them for even the smallest of tasks, thus leading to zero independence.

      What you’re asking Team B for, (status updates, challenges, feedback) is not generally micromanaging, UNLESS you’re asking for this so frequently or constantly it’s become a burden. It doesn’t sound like that’s the case. But even then, it’s pretty normal to be much more involved if you’re new to managing their work, because you’d kind of have to be initially.

      Is there a genuine reason they might feel this way? For example, is Team B’s work very different from Team A’s work that it doesn’t require this? But if the work is similar, and Team A seems happy with they way you manage the expectations and communications, I’d then say that yes, Team B has suffered poor management where they either haven’t been held accountable, or they really didn’t have to report on anything.

    3. The Man, Becky Lynch*

      Someone who has to be involved in every step and reserves all the power/control for themselves. The whole “CC me on EVERYTHING, ask me before you confirm ANYTHING” stuff, that’s micromanaging. Managing the steps and no t the overall process.

    4. dumblewald*

      For me, a micromanager is someone who feels the need to control microsteps *when it’s not necessary*. I emphasize the last part of the sentence, because if you aren’t getting good results, then it might be necessary to lift the hood and see what is going wrong in the process, which seems to be what is going on in your situation. Make sure you give clear feedback to the underperformers as to why you want things done a certain way and what you expect in the end result.

      1. Troutwaxer*

        And assure them that when you get the results you’re looking for consistently, you will stop training/micromanaging them. Also explain that if you are still training them on the same processes six months from now that people will be fired.

        Also, and this is just a guess, there is a particular problem person here, who needs to be either removed or co-opted. Figure out who they are and you will have won half the battle.

  195. Triplestep*

    What are your goto sources for excel dashboard and data viz examples?

    I’m designing a new report with a dashboard for my client (I’m a new member of consulting team) and I’m looking for ideas to them what’s possible. I don’t want to spend time designing the dashboards until I have initial feedback – I want to show examples, let them respond, then design as a “phase 2” of this exercise.

    Any ideas?

    1. BRR*

      I’ve just googled for what I was looking for and also checked the image search results. I think tableau has a forum or public publishing space with examples of various topics (sorry that’s not specific or super helpful!).

      1. Triplestep*

        Thanks, I’ll take a look. I found some sources on Pinrest. I just need to make sure I can design the back end of what I show them before i show it to them!

  196. Tyrion's Cupbearer*

    I asked my employer to write a recommendation letter for my grad school application. He gave me my first job in the tech industry twenty years ago .. and I came back to work for him a few years ago. He is happy to write a letter for me, and is asking me to send him a format. After searching .. I’m not seeing any examples particular to my scenario: older professional, reliant on technical experience rather than academic achievements.

    Could anyone help with format/template suggestions for a letter like this?

    1. MissBliss*

      I don’t know if you’ll be able to find a template like this. But if I were your boss, my letter would start off by saying that I’d known you for 20 years, since the beginning of your tech career, and that when I had the opportunity to hire you again X years ago, I jumped at the opportunity. I would talk about your characteristics, your drive, the ways you’ve impressed me, and the ways a graduate education would complement and build upon your professional accomplishments.

      Good luck!

  197. Amerdale*

    I was contacted by a recruiter a few days ago, who is looking to fill a position that sounds so great.
    Except that the organisation is owned by a catholic order and I’m so not religious. According to the recruiter the organization doesn’t care about the personal believes of the stuff (as a religious organisation they could legally could discriminate on religious grounds in my country; but it would make finding good employees a lot harder), but I’m still sceptical if that would be a good cultural fit. But I guess I’ll see. For now he will forward my resume and maybe they are not even interested in me. And if they decided to interview me, then I can ask them directly about the role religion is going to play in the everyday business.

    But aat least now I have received confirmation from an expert that my salary expectations are realistic, so there’s that. And it was nice for my self-esteem to be contacted out of the blue.

    1. anonykins*

      I work for a catholic school, and I’m an atheist. It really does depend on the organization, your department, and your role. I have no problems declaring myself an atheist (I’m not militant, but when it does occasionally come up 2-3 times a year I’m not shy about saying it), but that wouldn’t be the case in every department in the school. Especially since we have specific religious studies departments – I’d never want to be an admin in one of those departments, for example, not just because I would disagree with many of the teachings but also because the cultural default is to assume that everyone is catholic.

  198. Triplestep*

    I did two things this week to help other people professionally and I wanted to share and encourage people to do something similar if they have the opportunity.

    One was your basic “connecting two people on Linkedin.” Not that uncommon, but I realized you can do it even if you don’t know the people well. You don’t have to sing someone’s praises or recommend them, you can just introduce two people and say “I thought you should connect.” Now the owner of a small business in my field who wants to expand is talking to a person in my field who is looking for a change. No idea what will happen, and don’t know either well, but now they know about each other.

    The second thing was that I complimented a young man who came to my door to sell lawn care services by contacting his boss. There’s no way I’m buying lawn care services, and in this neighborhood, this young man will be hard-pressed to find anyone who will put chemicals on their lawn. But he was so charming and so earnest and new at his job, I asked for his bosses’ number so I could text the guy. I was sure to tell the boss that I asked for the number lest he think his new hire was asking people to do this. I got a great response and was really happy I could do this one thing since I’m not going to buy from this young salesman.

    1. The Man, Becky Lynch*

      RE: The second thing.

      I make it a standing practice to give praise and thank sales people when they’re doing a job well like that. It’s nice you took it a step further and called his boss about it.

      I’m also a big fan of leaving good reviews for businesses who have great employees and let everyone know what a great crew they have, etc. I leave them notes on receipts [along with large tips of course because you don’t pay bills on warm fuzzies of course]. It doens’t take that much to be nicer than averagely nice to people.

      1. Triplestep*

        Yes, good idea! I have left a couple of yelp reviews when I thought a crew did a great job.

    2. WellRed*

      I recently listened briefly to a spiel from a young adult offering food samples in the grocery store before politely declining. She thanked me for not just ignoring her and just taking the moment, you know?

  199. Was there every an update on the Fined $90 letter?*

    Was there every more of an update on what happened with the company that fined an employee $90 for being 45 min late? I know the OP interacted with the comment section but I really REALLY wanted an update the company had been fined into oblivion and OP had received a massive backpay award for unpaid overtime.

    That situation is probably in the top 3 rage-inducing letters of all time on this site for me. :(

  200. queen b*

    I’m wondering if it would be a good idea to go to my boss and say I’m having trouble staying motivated at my job – it’s really repetitive and task based, and not super what I signed up for when I took it. I’m trying really hard but something is not clicking. Has anyone ever been through this? Does it get better?!

    1. Nata*

      Could you ask your boss if there’s any special projects you could work on? You’d probably want to frame it in terms of wanting more “challenges” rather than you feeling unhapy/not motivated.

  201. Nata*

    I have been in my department for 3.5 years. A few months ago, I accepted a contract position in a more senior role in the department, with the hope/expectation that I would transition into managing the team after 1 year. This contract position was meant to be sort of like training wheels for the manager position. I have never managed or supervised before.
    A few months have passed now and I am realizing the manager position might not be right for me – too big a jump in responsibility from most recent role, big concerns with work/life balance, would be supervising staff 25 years older than me in first ever mgmt role, realizing that what I really like for now is an individual contributor role but with a high degree of responsibility. If I decide not to take this promotion (would be another contract – the mgmt position is only vacant temporarily), when is the right time to let my boss know? I would like her to be a reference. Is 3 months before the end of the contract the right time? (Gives them time to plan an alternate future and me to find a new position?)

  202. Persephone Mulberry*

    I’m almost worried I’m going to jinx things by saying this “out loud” but….

    I LOVE MY NEW JOB SO SO SO SO SO MUCH!!!

    It’s the end of the first week and I am feeling confident and competent in the tasks I’ve been trained on so far, and I like the work. None of that “oh s*** I’ve made a terrible mistake” feeling that I’ve experienced a couple times in the past. The only challenging part so far has been shifting from a 9 am start time to 8 am. (I treated it like changing a toddler’s bedtime – 15 minutes earlier every couple days, LOL.)

  203. Serin*

    If she’s continuing to ask you to be involved in solving this problem for her, she must not have heard you say no. That may be on her (some people just don’t hear no!) but it may be that you’re saying, “Ummm, well, I don’t really know about doing that …” instead of saying, “My babysitter isn’t available for other children this trip. You might call your child’s school or your place of worship and see if they have any referrals. I really hope you find someone!”

    Don’t be afraid to repeat yourself in exactly the same words if someone asks you exactly the same question.

    Having said that, I’m with the rest of the group — I would say no to sharing the specific babysitter I’ve hired for this trip, but I don’t see why I wouldn’t share the names and numbers of other babysitters that I’m not using at this moment.

  204. Miss Pantalones en Fuego*

    Le sigh. Today was my last day of work after being laid off again. I get so tired of constantly job hunting.

    Just a rant.

  205. Anon Job Hunt*

    I’m responding to recruiters, but not doing an active job search. I had an interview with a well-known company where I was told the interview would be a technical interview about X (where X is pretty hard). It turned out to be 10%X and 60% Y, where Y is actually pretty easy but not something I am current with. I did fine on X, but not so great on Y. Very frustrating.

  206. Not One of the Bronte Sisters*

    I would not agree to share the babysitter that I have hired. I raised two kids as a single mother and I went through all kinds of hell dealing with childcare arrangements, and I hated it when people would just want to piggyback onto my carefully made arrangements. But, if your other occasional sitters are willing for you to share their names and numbers (and definitely ask them first), I don’t know why you wouldn’t.

  207. LosingIt*

    I’m currently writing an operating procedure for a new application we developed. I’ve written a procedure for a different application for my boss’s boss before, which went well. My writing is generally acknowledged to be excellent by my boss. I’ve been giving training with live demos of this software an average of once per week for months. My boss has already given me four lectures on how to do this procedure with a meeting on it for tomorrow and it’s the first day I’ve worked on it. Three of them were before I touched anything. A large portion of all of it was about formatting and how picky my boss’s boss is about it. I cannot handle this. I’m already at the end of my rope with her constant check ins and all sorts of other things. She’s way behind on her own work even after pushing most of it off onto me. Help.

    Am I being ridiculous? I just want to write the thing (which is being patterned after the previous operating procedure I wrote fyi), and just let her look at it after. When I did it for her boss, she just told me to find a previous operating procedure and pattern mine after it. That was about it until I produced a draft for her. I miss the time when my boss was out on sick leave for several months even though I was covering her and it was already after they decided not to replace my coworker and just have me do all her former work. I’ve been here for years, I’m doing multiple people’s jobs, and I still can’t escape being checked on multiple times a day or just do an assignment like this without interference.

  209. Zona the Great*

    I need advice. I was the victim of hate-speech recently when my office was vandalized with Swastikas. I’m Jewish but I don’t believe I was victimized because of that. I don’t believe the attacker knew of my ethnicity. We think it was the overnight construction crew who has access to our floor. My name isn’t Jewish and I wouldn’t be picked out of a lineup as a Jew. But I am. I was raised Orthodox and am proud.

    I would now like to put up a subtle mezuza on my door frame of my office. I want the attacker to know I’m a Jew in case s/he comes back around. I want others to know I’m a Jew now too. What do you all think of this?

    1. WellRed*

      I think someone who would paint swastikas isn’t going to recognize the significance of a mezuza, but if it makes you feel better, go for it!

    2. Bismuth*

      Some of them are so beautiful! It’s a great idea. You may have to be prepared to explain what it is over and over, though.

      I’m so sorry you had to walk in and see that.

      1. Lilith*

        Man, that’s awful. I can’t imagine how sickening that must have been. I’ve wondered about placing a mezuza on my front door frame too but I’m agnostic and I don’t want to offend.
        Was your work area the only one damaged? Any video?

        1. Zona the Great*

          Mine was the only personal office hit. The rest were on communal walls. And yes the idiot apparently did it right below a camera. It was turned over to the police.

          1. valentine*

            I think a mezuza is too subtle. Is this a time for Spartacus solidarity? Would you welcome everyone putting a Star of David or other unmistakable symbol on their doors and in their spaces?

            Unless they have some other beef with you or your office is a natural place to include, I wouldn’t be so sure they don’t know you’re Jewish. Do you keep a family photo or kosher accoutrements? Make sure the police know you’re Jewish, especially if it impacts the charges.

            1. Lilith*

              Ooof I like the Spartacus take on this if you have lots of office support. Bring in menorahs, stars of David (like mentioned) etc.

  210. Cows go moo*

    I unexpectedly received a reference checking call for someone who reported to me. My reference was not good – this person caused a lot of problems and literally her whole team resigned. At the end the reference checker asked if I wanted the reference to be kept confidential and I said yes.

    Turns out she (the ex employee) was rejected from this job and she called to follow up on why she was declined. Hiring manager told her specific details about my negative reference and cited it as the reason for rejecting her.

    I am really annoyed by this. I do reference checks when I hire and would never, ever share if I received a bad reference. Why on earth did the hiring manager disclose this? Is it worth complaining to that company?

    1. The Man, Becky Lynch*

      And this exact situation is why so many companies do not allow managers/people outside of HR do references or worse, they only confirm employment and don’t give references at all.

      This is utterly ridiculous and detrimental to the process. It could open you up for a lawsuit if they paraphrased your words and gave the idea that perhaps you were retaliating for something against this person.

      They’re cowards and unprofessional.

    2. Rhymes with Mitochondria*

      You asked for it to be kept confidential and it wasn’t. That’s the problem!

      1. Lilith*

        Yep that confidential part didn’t matter much, eh? That would torque me off. Sheesh, why bother asking you?

    3. Glomarization, Esq.*

      I’d complain (but I am An Old and I don’t put up with much). The checker offered to keep the reference confidential from the applicant, you accepted that offer and reciprocated with candidness about the applicant … and then the company 100% failed to keep the hiring manager from sharing. As a result of their failure, you had to deal with a cranky follow-up call from someone whom you thought you’d put far behind you.

      I’d say you aren’t the only person this company has done this to, and they won’t stop until people like you read them the riot act about it. (Or, you know, call back and point out that they put you in an awkward position after promising confidentiality.)

    4. Miss Pantalones en Fuego*

      I would complain for sure. It’s highly unprofessional to promise confidentiality and then tell the referee everything you said. It would be somewhat different if they had vaguely said that a reference was not favourable and perhaps hinted at the issues you brought up but not this.

  211. Aggretsuko*

    I am just sick of everything always being crazy here all the time. Exploding drama all day long today. Technology fail not by us meant that we broke the law. Getting screamed at for something someone else screwed up. Being told that the thing I could do to make something easier is being taken away. I’m so tired of this and it never ends and it always gets worse.

    1. NewNameJustForThisBecause*

      Sending an internet hug if it is welcome. Give yourself a quiet weekend…something fun, something relaxing. And figure out if you just need to vent, or if you are really thinking about a need to leave… an exit plan can take time.

  212. Georgia*

    Should I be open with an employer that I’m not interviewing anywhere else if they ask? Can I make it clear it’s because I’m VERY interested in the position/company and it isn’t because no one else is interested?

    1. The Man, Becky Lynch*

      You can absolutely be truthful and tell them that you’re only interviewing with them, I don’t see why that would harm you. Just say that you have narrowed your focus to positions you see as a great fit for you that you’re interested in.

      They usually only ask you this question because they want to know if you’re in the spot where they may be in a bidding war or lose you because they offer you prior to the other business getting a chance.

      As hiring managers, those who are decent humans with a grasp on reality understand you’re probably interviewing elsewhere but are trying to see if we have some decision making time or if we need to speed things up to avoid losing those great candidates.

    2. Darren*

      If you have an existing position it would make even more sense you not interviewing elsewhere, most people with a current comfortable position aren’t really actively looking, but if they notice something interesting enough they’d be foolish not to throw their name into the hat.

      But yeah in general it’s more about a question of timelines than anything else.

  213. NicoleK*

    Just need to vent/rant. So I posted several weeks ago about my boss scheduling an “efficiency/mapping” meeting with our small team. We had the meeting earlier this week. Instead of getting rid of the dead weight (BEC coworker is incompetent, slow, needs help ALL the time and etc), Boss is borrowing an extra person a few days out of the month to help carry the dead weight. SMH

  214. FaintlyMacabre*

    Holy shlamoley, this has been a difficult week. I’ve been in training, and this week has been an intense test of all my AAM knowledge. Trainer number 1 was an anti-immigrant fanatic, and would not stop even after we agreed that it was best not to talk politics. (He even expressed his regret that a recent fatal accident in our area “didn’t happen to a bunch of illegals” in front of our boss, who did not really react, so now I’m side eyeing both of them) and was incredibly negative about every freaking thing. It was exhausting. Trainer number 2 was way too personal and prying, except for when he was monologueing about himself. This week was rough. Thank god it was the last bit of training for a while!

    1. The Man, Becky Lynch*

      Holy…do you have to work with that schmuck any time after the training is over? I feel like you’re going to have a lot of stories about that guy and I hope it ends with him being thrown into a volcano.

      1. FaintlyMacabre*

        I hope not, but there is more training in the pipeline, sooooo….. Eeeeeeerrrrrggggghhhh.

        1. Lilith*

          Wowzaa, I can’t imagine . Is your class large enough that they have surveys that are confidential? Hit them where it hurts if you can. Some People have no shame.

          1. FaintlyMacabre*

            Not a class, unfortunately. One on one trainings. Just me and the jerk. Together. All freaking day.

            1. ..Kat..*

              Does your company have HR that you could report this to?

              Or how about a training manager? Both of these are bad trainers in different ways.

              1. Troutwaxer*

                I’m not sure you should report both trainers, as it might look like you don’t want training. I’d report the racist dude and not worry too much about the other guy.

  215. Amethyst*

    I’ve been offered the new position at my old job (laid off in November–my position became redundant). What are some good phrases I can use to ask for reinstatement of my vacation/PTO/etc. & “time with this company” (I’m not sure how to phrase it, but basically, if I was still there, I’d be coming up on my 3 year anniversary instead of starting over at 0)? What I’m after is a complete reinstatement of everything I would’ve been entitled to–including annual raises–without this 5 month “break”.

    For reference, I have several coworkers who’ve been on a crusade to have me return to this company since I received my pink slip. Grand-bosses also acknowledge that laying me off was a huge mistake, but one they had no choice over as it came from C-Suite.

    3. WellRed*

      Same job, new owner. We got grandfathered in with existing Pto and at the level of years we’d worked ( for new pto accrual purposes).

    4. Colette*

      The phrase you want is “bridge your services”. Many big companies have policies for how to do this.

  216. Not A Manager*

    People absolutely “steal” sitters. If OP has a few sitters who are occasionally available to her, but not reliably, I don’t see why people are up in arms that she doesn’t want to provide their contact info to another employers. She’s not stopping the sitters from finding other work, she’s just not actively setting them up for other work.

    How is this different from any employer who has part-time/seasonal employees, refusing to hook them up with other, competing employers?

    I understand that workplace politics/personal friendship might militate in favor of sharing her sitters’ info, but I think it’s wildly off-base to chastise her for not wanting to do it.

    Also – no, she’s not obligated to “share” the sitter at the conference. She might need to, due to the work circumstances, but it’s not wrong to want your sitter to focus on your kid.

  217. Kelly*

    I recently started working for a startup company. I love its mission and my coworkers. The female assistant manager wants to provide a discreet shelf in our shared restroom for our monthly necessities, and asked all females to be considerate and replenish when needed. Her intentions are genuinely thoughtful, but since middle school in the 80’s I have always made it a habit of being prepared for my own needs whether it be tampons, meds, etc. Are my feelings wrong/negative?

    1. Rhymes with Mitochondria*

      That’s great that you are always prepared. I think most people try to be. You can be prepared for your own emergencies AND help keep an emergency stash in the bathroom. I don’t think anyone is saying this will be the primary source of supplies.
      If you’ve never been caught unaware/unprepared it’s only a matter of time. Happens to everyone.

    2. Alianora*

      You didn’t actually say what your feelings are, but it’s totally reasonable not to want to participate. I would just say to her that I have my own very specific preferences about feminine hygiene products, and so I wouldn’t be participating.

      1. Lilith*

        I guess I’m a bit puzzled as to why you feel a bit odd/defensive (don’t really know what word I’m going for here) about throwing a box of O B tampon s in the drawer. Am I misreading something? When I turned 60, I took most of my lady stuff to work for the communal drawer. I figured I didn’t need too much around the house anymore.

        1. ..Kat..*

          She may be worried that only a few workers will be spending their own money to support the many that contribute nothing.

        2. Alianora*

          Not sure if you meant to reply to me since I don’t feel odd or defensive about the situation.

          I don’t want to participate in something like that because I use reusable pads for financial and environmental reasons. I do carry some disposables in my car for emergency situations. I would be happy to give one to someone who needed it, but if I’m not buying them or using them myself then I don’t want to take on the financial burden of replenishing the office stash every month.

    3. WellRed*

      You can do both and save the day for someone less prepared. Or do nothing and no one will know.

    4. Lilysparrow*

      If a coworker came to your desk and asked if you had a pad or a Motrin because she was in a bind, would you help her or tell her to pound sand because she should be more prepared like you?

      Everybody intends to be prepared, but sometimes things go wrong for any one of a million reasons. Getting caught without a pad in your purse isn’t a character flaw.

      Be a decent person and toss a $3 pack of something on the shelf for starters. Then replenish whenever you take. If you never need to take one, you’re off the hook.

    5. Libretta*

      Oh man – I am mid-40s and have only ever been caught seriously unprepared two times since middle school. I am prepared. Generally. I also think this is a thing that we can band together as women to help each other out. You can absolutely decline to participate, but not everyone is regular, my friend gets a period every 4 months or so, and not everyone has the means to always be prepared. A contribution is kind, but not necessary.

    6. Eleanor Rigby*

      It may also come down to just to being prepared or not but money. Maybe 1 month a colleague is a little short. I would just put something in every so often. Why not?

    7. Glomarization, Esq.*

      Are my feelings wrong/negative?

      I don’t like to say that anybody’s feelings are “wrong” but I wonder if your feelings aren’t a little uncharitable or even judgey. Over all these years, if you’ve never found yourself in a situation where you were out and about but you weren’t prepared, I think I would chalk that up to good luck rather than good preparedness.

      If the issue is rather that you’re not a fan of employees having to pay for supplies, maybe suggest to the assistant manager that she take a few dollars out of petty cash for this. Or assign the job of monitoring and replenishment to the office manager. Office supply companies sell industrial-packed tampons and pads (including name brand maxi-thin types, not just the cottony maxipads individually packed in a little box) for just this scenario.

    8. Kelly*

      Sorry for not clearly explaining my views; I wasn’t quite sure why my initial reaction was negative upon hearing this suggestion. Another employee had a hysterectomy, and she laughed and said she won’t participate. I never encountered it at previous jobs. I’ve frequently given a Kotex or Tylenol here and there. I don’t have feelings of superiority. I suffer from migraines, so I never leave home without my prescription…so yeah, that’s why I’m basically a walking drug store. Tissues, gum, bandaids, it’s all in my purse! I do think this restroom supply is a good idea because no one should have their work or school day interrupted simply because they’re female. If I use something I’ll definitely replenish, but if I never use I don’t feel financially obligated.

    9. Introvert girl*

      Frankly, this is something the company should do. It would also make them look better as a company. As for yourself, I would buy a bag of normal pads and put it in the emergency basket. Then tell the assistant manager that although you use reusable ones, you’ve contributed to the cause but that you believe that this is something the company should be providing as a good gesture. This way you only have to attribute once, and if the assistant ask you again you just say you’ve already contributed and want to be environment-friendly.

      1. Lilith*

        I had a hysterectomy too but I was ok with donating. I guess I see this so differently but I can’t articulate why. Seems like “yay solidary” or something when maybe it should be “oh there’s femme stuff here just like there is toilet paper here.”

        1. Introvert girl*

          I actually work for a company that provides sanitary pads so for me this is “normal”.

    10. Miss Pantalones en Fuego*

      Unless your contribution is being actively monitored then I would just not contribute, if you feel that you shouldn’t have to because you aren’t using any. No need to make a big deal about it.

      1. valentine*

        Unless your contribution is being actively monitored then I would just not contribute
        Yes. It sounds like it was a suggestion, not a command, and I bet some people will contribute and that will be that. If she does check back or chastise anyone, someone should suggest the business also provide x amount every month. It’s a chance for teamwork and cooperation around something that can make work feel impossible.

        Please read the letter about the person who suffered urinary incontinence at work for lovely comments about sharing, paying it forward, and the girl code.

  218. Sarah*

    Today was my last day at my current job! I have been here eight years and was promoted to management. I spent most of the day crying every time someone would come up and hug me to say goodbye. my peers and direct reports are like family to me. It’s so Bittersweet. I am moving on to a less stressful role that also pays more. However, I still can’t stop crying. I just feel so emotional right now.

  219. Teapot Translator*

    It’s been a rough week at work. I felt angry most of the week because I feel powerless about my situation: I am not happy at work and I want to change jobs, but I can’t find anything in the field I want. My only possible exit door is maybe an offer that may be coming for a job that I’m not sure I want to do for various reasons (but it would be more interesting that what I am doing now). I’m frustrated and sad because I feel like I’m not good enough for the jobs I want; I feel guilty because part of me thinks I should settle for the job I have now and I shouldn’t aspire for something more; I’m angry because it feels like I have no control over the situation.
    Anyways, job searching sucks. Why can’t we all be millionaires.

    1. Introvert girl*

      I feel for you. I also work as a teapot translator. I would rather translate literature than different kind of teapots. At work I’ve set some boundaries and will also be changing departments which will help. But yeah, I played the lottery today …

  220. Mimmy*

    Through a job alert on a particular website, I came across a job that’s almost right up my alley. However, it only provided an overview of what the job entails; it doesn’t say anything about qualifications. Is that… weird?

    The location is too difficult for me to get to anyway so I won’t be applying, but I was curious how I would approach this if I were to apply?

    The job posting was for a postsecondary institution, if it matters.

  221. Demoralized*

    –Boss gives different reasons each year why he won’t promote me; worried this year will be the same.

    Quick overview of what I’ve experienced:
    -Sizable raise this year due to my “leadership and positive attitude.”
    -“Great work!” type of verbal accolades to me personally during our weekly meetings.
    -I actively do a ton of things above my job description (to his delight).
    -A couple months ago, the boss confided in an outgoing colleague, who was at the level I am aiming for, that he’s got a department full of people at that level, but I’m the only one who actually gets things done. Colleague told me about this and said I should definitely ask to be at that level.

    I’m being very brief here, but these and other things make me think I’m justified for the title bump. It’s not only in line with my own career goals, but I could use the extra authority that that title bump will give, as the not-getting-things-done disease isn’t restricted to our department, and I need to elbow my way through some calcification.

    Two years ago when I first brought all this up, I was told we had too many people at that level and the company was working to change that. (A tiny bit of this happened; a couple people were demoted.)
    Last year when I brought it up, he said he wanted to see more leadership and delegation. I made sure I did and documented those things.
    This year when I brought it up, he said he wanted to know my definition of this job level and what it means to me. And that there are far too many people at that level in our company and it’s not like there will be any salary increase in it.

    I already had a salary increase, so I don’t even care about that. I also don’t plan to suddenly stop getting things done; I intend to get more done!

    But I’m worried that if I don’t come up with enough words that he wants to hear, he’ll just push me off with another “prove it” regime for the year. Or that it won’t actually matter what I say, because he just doesn’t see me as advancing any further than I already am.

    I’m hoping to talk with him next week, but I’m struggling to get past this demoralized feeling that I should throw my energies into job search.

    Any tips?

    1. fposte*

      What would it mean to you if you didn’t get the title bump for another year, or two, or three? Or ever?

      They’re being weirdly begrudging on this, and it doesn’t seem like they feel much need to change. I’d start looking.

      1. Demoralized*

        It would mean I could tell myself to keep enjoying some of the nicer aspects of the corp culture…but yeah, still have that lingering/active resentment.

        I am digging into cover letters today!

    2. ..Kat..*

      “Gee, boss. I just never seem to qualify for promotion. Should I be looking outside the company for a promotion instead?” Based on what he says about you, he does not want to lose you.

      1. Demoralized*

        I appreciate your take on it; it’s not always easy to see from the inside.

        It’s a scary thing to bring up, moving on & out, but when I get further ahead in my job search, I bet I’ll feel more confident to say that even at risk of them starting one of those secret person-replacement hunts.

        1. Troutwaxer*

          I’d say you should start looking for another job. You can tell HR on the way out that you “were looking to advance in the industry and were happy when a better opportunity came up.”

        2. Bulbasaur*

          It’s a gamble, but I suspect it would be just as scary for him if not more so. Given how many seat-warmers they apparently have at the higher level who supposedly don’t get anything done, this is not a company that is proactive about moving people on for poor performance, let alone mentioning that they might possibly one day look for a job elsewhere.

          I’d also suggest getting a bit more assertive about the promotion. You can list all your evidence and say that you believe you are already doing the job corresponding to the higher level and you deserve the promotion. If he argues to the contrary, get specifics from him, and don’t accept any standard that doesn’t also apply to the others in the position. Alternatively if he agrees but says he still can’t promote you even if you deserve it (which seems to be the current situation) well, at least then you know – and that would be a fair point at which to ask him what your career advancement prospects are at the company.

  222. Astrea*

    I started my new extremely-part-time job, and am in the grumbly phase of “My friends are all excited that I got such a ‘great’ job at a ‘great’ institution, but *they’re* not the ones getting all the job training in one day and staying up late at night to do lots of electronic onboarding paperwork and facing the endless task of making the multiple phone calls necessary to schedule every workday’s commuting transportation and getting an ID with a predictably unflattering photo. Blurg.” It’ll pass.

      1. Astrea*

        Yes, I’m paid hourly. I’ll be paid for onsite training and shadowing time, but doubt I could charge for anything else.

        1. ..Kat..*

          I think you should be getting paid for the onboarding paperwork that you are doing late into the night. Just ask “how do I put in for the time I am doing this paperwork at night?”

  223. Sick*

    Should you work from home when you’re calling in sick, even though you won’t get paid for it?

    The policy in my company is that if someone calls in sick, their salary that month would be docked according to the number of days they miss. Say, the monthly pay is supposed to be 3,500, but because Fergus was out sick for three days then he only gets ~3,100.

    I was out sick for two days last week, and this Monday my team lead sent us a list of links to important documents and said, “So that you can still access it when you’re not here.” Thing is, I don’t see why I should work when I won’t get paid for it, and that my pay is going to be cut over my sick days.

    Should I suck it up and try to work anyway? What’s going to be the best way to handle it, professionally?

    (I’m not in the US. so I’m not really looking for legal advice)

    1. Quandong*

      If you’re sick at home, and not getting paid to work, don’t work.

      Is your team lead thinking ahead in case people ask to work from home in future as opposed to taking unpaid sick days?

      1. Sick*

        Work for home is a perk here, although you can only take it 2 times a month? Something like that. So I think the other team members, who have been here longer than me, already knew the system, which is why I thought it was a hint for me as the newbie.

    2. ContemporaryIssued*

      I would take those documents as something to play catch up with when you’re back to health and back at work. If the team lead meant it as something you should look at while sick, then that’s backwards.

    3. Just bleargh*

      Because I think that policy is detrimental in so many different ways, I’d say, take the hint from your team lead, and pretend you’re just doing a work from home day versus a sick day.

      And if you’re sick enough that you do have to be out more than the also ridiculously-low two times a month–ridiculously-low because it seems you can still access everything no matter which seat your bum is on–I’d even consider calling it a vacation day, unless those are severely limited as well.

      But that’s me feeling rawr-fy toward a wretched-sounding system.

    4. LGC*

      I was about to start yelling at your employer about labor law, but then you added in the note about not being in the US.

      At any rate, I’d get clarification – will you get paid if you do opt to WFH? One possible explanation is that they’re providing work resources so you can do work and therefore get paid. It’s giving them a lot more trust than they deserve, but this seems like a not unreasonable assumption.

      If they are going to pay you, I’d do work if you’re able to. (Like, if you’re home with a cold.) But if they’re not…then I’d honestly say that you think it’s unfair for people to do unpaid work for their company, so you’ll be unable to WFH when sick.

      (Also, because I need to throw this in: your employer sucks. Even if they are paying you for WFH on sick days, that they’re expecting you to work when you’re sick is unreasonable. More importantly, that they don’t offer sick time is also unreasonable.)

  225. Libretta*

    I have an employee who takes 1-2 weeks every time he gets a cold. He just took 11 days for what he describes as ‘congestion.’ Company policy is that I can ask for a drs note after 3 days but I generally try to let people make their own call – if they are sick, they are sick! If my staff need a day, they take a day, and it’s all good. I have several staff members who have had opportunities to volunteer abroad, taken a month or more to do so, and as long as they are up front about it, and prepare ahead of time – we make it work. This employee has taken (with holidays, vacation, sick – all are bundled into our PTO – and unpaid time) 8 weeks in 10 months. half of which were unscheduled sick days. I have to have a meeting about ‘attendance’ and I’m so irritated by it. We have such a generous leave policy, and all it would take is planning ahead. I’ve offered to change his schedule, reduce his FTE – all declined. Just ranting – thanks for listening.

    1. ContemporaryIssued*

      Yikes.

      Now, at my old job a co-worker did get two weeks for a bad flu with cough from the doctor. Our job was on the phone so doing it with a cough was difficult, and in many ways in a call center it’s better if somebody doesn’t show up while sick, so the rest of us don’t get sick. If people always came in sick, it would soon be an epidemic and the rest of the team would be struggling with coverage.

      I would not feel bad about asking for a doctor’s note, though, just because that way a doctor can be the one to say how much time off is needed – at least that’s how it works in my country, the doctor recommends 3 days off, 5 days off etc. Usually a working week is enough for a cold.

      1. valentine*

        You’re having it both ways. You won’t ask for a doctor’s note or deny him leave, yet are resentful. Why? He can only take what you allow.

        How is his work? Does he come back ready to go?

        1. Libretta*

          I’ve asked on two occasions for a doctor’s note. Each time he came back to work, hale and hearty, the next day, and I didn’t press it. I work for a massive bureaucracy, and there are forms and departments and classifications that most of us don’t have to worry about because if we need a day, we take a day. When it looks like the system might be being abused, I have to start formalities. And so him providing a note starts a process. It gets at least 2, maybe 3 departments involved. So it is not just that I don’t want to – I actually do, but it creates work for a lot of people and really puts him in a negative situation which I try to avoid for my employees, as I’m the one who pulls the trigger on that.
          His work is adequate. He does what he is supposed to, but only just barely. He does some things well, but does not want to learn new things. If not for this issue I would think he was maybe sorta disappointing, in that I thought he was a pretty good hire. Others on my team had worked with him in the past and he had even trained one person (who is great) on some things. With the attendance issue, I am ready to pull the plug, but that won’t be happening any time soon.

      2. MissDisplaced*

        Well, it seems kinda long for a cold, but congestion could be severe to point of pneumonia and hospital stays, so it’s hard to tell how serious it really was. Ideally, at day 5 there should have been a conversation about getting a doctor note if he was unable to return.
        Many places require one even sooner, but I personally wouldn’t until it passed 1 working week (5 days). To me bad colds and flu have a reasonable timeframe of about 1 week to recover and if not, one should definitely be seeing a doctor by that point anyway if not better!

    2. ..Kat..*

      Does your comppany actually offer this much time off? Or is he taking it without pay? I recommend focusing on whether he is getting the work done.

      1. Libretta*

        They offer a generous amount of PTO. He took some days unpaid (because he had not accrued) but not many. The company also allows people to go into negative hours. It is the ‘unscheduled’ nature of these days that is the serious issue as it puts other people in a bind. If he wanted to take a week off, he could do so, allowing others to prepare to take care of his stuff, instead of forcing it on them. We don’t usually have hard deadlines on things, but it slows us down when people disappear for a week or two. Not having deadlines makes it hard to say he is not doing work – as he is working when he is here – but no deadline does not mean people aren’t waiting for it, and long wait times makes people outsource things we could be doing, costing the org money, and it doesn’t look great for me if projects I’m leading are taking ages to complete.

        I love working for a company with such generous leave – and I take a lot of days myself. So do my other staff and coworkers. If he has a medical issue – I have no problem with him taking the time he needs, but he will need to provide the documentation.

    3. Introvert girl*

      Hmmm, I came close to this amount of sick days once (but I had a doctor’s note every time). It seemed I had asthma which I didn’t know about. I’m on daily medication now but still am vulnerable for colds and other chest-related diseases. When I get a cold I usually work from home for a couple of days. When it becomes something more serious I go to the doctor’s. My company also doesn’t vacuum or dust which makes this situation worse.
      Tal to your employee first. Ask them if they are ok, if there is anything you as a company can do to help him get sick less often. Make sure it isn’t medical first, if you’re sure it’s not, then you can be tough with him.

  226. AeroEngineer*

    I am really late this week, but I have a question.

    I am newly out of University, have now in total 1.5 years (1.25 + 0.25 years) under my belt. However, it might be the case that I end up changing jobs within the next year or so (I am not looking right now, but I work for a contractor and it is common for people in my company to get snapped up by other companies in this city). I would accept a position at one of these other companies as they usually have better pay and significantly better benefits than my current company, and I don’t have the best upward movement currently.

    My question is, how bad would it seem in the long run that I have two shorter stays at companies but that there is an obvious upward trend in positions?

  227. Autumnal*

    I’m not sure if this is the right place to ask, but was there ever an update on that guy who didn’t let his best employee go to her graduation? It is linked on this post and I re-read it and was flabbergasted all over again!

    2. Observer*

      Also, what’s there to update? The employee walked off – I’d be stunned if she ever came back. And even if the boss reached out to scold her as intended, I’d be willing to bet that she’s not giving him the time of day.

      1. Autumnal*

        I’d love to know if the manager learned anything from the experience, Alison’s advice, or the comments.

  228. CoverLetterWoes*

    I posted this a couple of weeks ago, but really late and didn’t get any responses on these two questions about a job I’m interested in applying for. I had a third question that relates to this job but is also a little more general so I’m going to post it separately.

    1. It is a part time job (which is what I want) but doesn’t list how many hours they’re looking for. Is it okay to call HR to ask that? I’m flexible with the actual schedule, but if it’s too many hours, I’m not going to waste my time & theirs by applying.

    2. Should I mention the following (in shorter form!) in my cover letter? : The position is at a university that I have seriously considered applying to for a master’s program that would actually compliment this position perfectly. I actually started the application a couple of years ago & met with an admissions advisor, but ultimately had a bunch of health stuff come crashing down and couldn’t manage or afford grad school since. [Also want to mention that I was particularly happy to see this job because I’m pretty sure they have tuition benefits even for part time employees, but even without that, it’s so much of what I love to do and I really like the university.]

    Thanks as always for the great help here!

      1. CoverLetterWoes*

        Thanks, I did read that before, but that question seemed more about calling the hiring manager to discuss what kind of employee they’re looking for or ask questions to clarify the job description. I agree that shouldn’t be done before, unless you have a connection already.

        My question is if it’s all right to call HR for a basic logistics question, i.e. does part time mean 10 hours per week, 35, something else?

        1. A Reader*

          I still think the point stands – that you should apply, and then bring it up when scheduling an interview if it gets to that point. Someone in the link above brings up the point that an applicant is still wasting time if they reach out to HR in advance of applying – the HR person still needs to email them a response.

          1. Buu*

            I agree, a lot of part time jobs are somewhat flexible. They may be looking for some help during busy times, but aren’t sure how much they need or can get.

  229. CoverLetterWoes*

    Following up on my other post, I’m wondering how to address some difficult topics when applying for jobs. And if I should address them in a cover letter or wait until an interview.

    Basically, I had a breakdown (I don’t know if that’s still what it would be called) a little over two years ago. Due to a major depressive episode, my performance at work had been slowly declining for a few months. It wasn’t to the point that I was in danger of a PIP but I knew if I continued much longer, I would be. I ended up taking a medical leave, fully intending to go back at the end of three months. That didn’t happen.

    Long story short, I ended up getting a lot worse and didn’t handle things well, or at all. I pretty much ghosted them instead of letting them know I couldn’t return, so of course they fired me. And I’ve been unemployed ever since.

    Any thoughts on how (and when) to address this gap? And what do I do about references? I don’t feel my boss from my last job would give me a good one.

    Some more info:
    – I haven’t been volunteering or anything in the time I’ve been unemployed.
    – The only substantial thing I’ve done in this time, besides taking care of my mental health, is doing a lot of reading/research on social justice & anti-racism.
    – I think a former manager at my last job and managers at the second to last place I worked would give me good references, but they’d be 5-7 years old at this point.

    1. Alianora*

      I think that can mostly be explained as “I was dealing with a health issue, which has now been resolved.” No need to go into details about the fact that it was depression.

      Ghosting/being fired isn’t ideal, but you can explain that your health had gotten much worse and you unfortunately didn’t communicate well to your old job at the time.

      It would probably help your resume if you find some sort of short-term employment or volunteer opportunities in the meantime. A way to show that you’re well enough to work again. Even if it’s quasi-freelancing like Doordash or Rev or dog walking.

      1. CoverLetterWoes*

        Thanks, that’s pretty much how I plan to address it, just not sure if it all should be addressed in the cover letter? Or some there, some in an interview?

        And I am starting to apply for short term jobs/volunteer jobs, but most of the ones I’ve found also require references, so I’m back to not knowing who to ask. I unfortunately can’t do any of the freelancing ones that require a car or extended walking/biking, and all seem to require one of those.

  230. elemenohpi*

    I’m really late, but hopefully some folks are still reading and can offer some advice.

    TLDR: When is it ok to go to HR about your boss?

    I work very closely with one other person on my team (we’re like a mini-team within the larger team) and we have a weekly status meeting with our manager. At yesterday’s status meeting, our manager was really frustrated with us and the meeting went off the rails.

    He and my teammate have been working on this big project together for the past 4 months. They spent 4 months coming up with a strategy and just before my teammate was about to start implementation, our manager completely changed his mind and revised the strategy at the last minute. Changing the strategy required my teammate to change a lot of the moving parts, and he wanted her to have all of those moving parts updated the same day. When he checked back the next day and not everything had been updated yet, he was upset.

    So, at the status meeting, he started asking my teammate some really condescendingly basic questions about the project, like “explain to me what you know about X.” The implication being that she couldn’t get everything updated in one day because she doesn’t know what she’s doing. Then he turned around and started doing the same thing to me, asking me questions about the parts of the project I was responsible for. My teammate and I were both really confused about why he was acting that way, so we weren’t really engaging with him in the way that he wanted, so he got really upset.

    So, during this meeting, he stood up, stood over us, and started shouting at us: “I expect you to read documents when I send them to you! I expect you to show up prepared to meetings! I don’t want to hear anymore ‘I don’t understand’ or ‘I’m confused’!” Etc. Etc.

    The thing is, our manager is a big guy (probably about 6’4″ and 280 lbs ish) and he’s significantly older than us. My teammate and I are both women in our early 30s. So, having a large man stand over us while we’re seated and start yelling at us was actually frightening. We both started crying.

    After the meeting, my teammate told me that she feels intimidated by my boss. I don’t know if I feel intimidated, but I certainly don’t trust him anymore and don’t want to work for him anymore (in addition to the yelling, there have been a whole host of mismanagement problems with this project that I won’t get into). My teammate and I are both planning to start looking for new jobs now. But she’s thinking of taking this to HR, because she felt intimidated and because she doesn’t want him to do this to future employees. The people who have traditionally been in our roles have always been younger women, and he has a history of being a (non-creepy) jerk to them, but just in subtler ways.

    So, is this an HR-worthy event? I have no idea how good/bad our HR department is, so can’t say if they have a history of taking issues seriously and treating employees fairly.

    1. Troutwaxer*

      I’m not sure about the HR issues, but you shouldn’t have to go through this crap. I guess you could ask other employees about the HR issues. Alternately, you could go to the grandboss if some discreet inquiries point that way.

      1. elemenohpi*

        I’ve thought about that route, too (going to the grandboss). I think I’m going to ask around to get a sense of what grandboss is like, because I’ve never interacted with him. Thanks!

    2. Alianora*

      Yikes, your boss actually yelling at you like that is never okay, even without getting into the physical intimidation factor. I would definitely bring this to HR if your company mostly has reasonable management. (If it’s normal for managers to act unprofessionally like this, then that’s another story.)

      1. elemenohpi*

        I don’t get the sense that yelling is normal in our culture. Definitely considering going to HR after getting some more information from others. Thanks for the validation. :)

    3. pjm*

      Why wouldn’t you discuss it with your boss first? You should tell him how he made you feel. Then, if you are not satisfied with his response, then you can escalate it to HR. Although HR most likely won’t do anything unless it is an ongoing pattern of behavior. But you may be pleasantly surprised and happy with this response if you discuss your feelings with him.

      1. elemenohpi*

        Well, my teammate won’t discuss it with him because she is now intimidated by him.

        I’m not enthusiastic about discussing it with him because I don’t think it will make a difference. This is the first time he’s yelled, but any other time I’ve brought up other concerns with him, he’s pretended to not understand, completely ignored them, or said that he understood and would do something to improve things, but then never followed up.

        1. valentine*

          Read your handbook so you know how they define unacceptable behavior and go to HR. If they seem reluctant, mention the gender and age components.

      2. Observer*

        I don’t think I would do that. This is a guy who went from being simply unreasonable to physically threatening them just because he was annoyed. What makes you think he’s going to respond well? Why would anyone take the risk?

      3. CastIrony*

        Pjm, The thing is that because of what women have been taught about men, she will (almost) never feel safe telling a man who treated her like garbage, especially like this boss, how she feels in fear that things will get worse for her.

        I should know. I used to have an over-critical male boss that made me living in fear of making a single mistake, which I did every day.

        A year later at my current job, a male superior criticized me for everything I did because he was super-stressed ONE DAY. I never told him. I told my female supervisor because he had triggered me to the point where I had anxiety attacks that made me step away because I didn’t want to go through that again.

        1. CastIrony*

          In conclusion, I’d go over his head if I were in OP’s shoes. Both grandboss and HR sound good to me.

  231. pjm*

    Why wouldn’t you discuss it with your boss first? You should tell him how he made you feel. Then, if you are not satisfied with his response, then you can escalate it to HR. Although HR most likely won’t do anything unless it is an ongoing pattern of behavior. But you may be pleasantly surprised and happy with this response if you discuss your feelings with him.

  232. A Reader*

    I have a question about resumes where you do work that can’t exactly be quantified. I read AMA’s article on this from a year or so ago, but I’m still scratching my head.

    Here’s the setup: Let’s say I paint teapots, and I don’t see the sales results or get customer feedback. My boss and teammates tell me I’m doing a great job, but I don’t have any way to quantify what I do, except to say “I paint X teapots per week.” Is there a way to add more numbers to this? FWIW, I am seen as consistent and reliable on the teapot-painting front on my team.

    If I am part of a limited-edition industry-specific teapot design, can I include that as “Painted X teapots in support of industry-specific design campaign” and then list the types of teapots that I designed in support of the campaign? (And wow, is it hard to obfuscate what I do!)

    1. CoverLetterWoes*

      I don’t think it’s as much about quantifying and adding more numbers as it is about detailing what makes *you* unique as a teapot painter.

      You say you’re seen as consistent and reliable – are you the go to teapot painter? Do you frequently finish up loose teapot painting ends for the team? Or are you the one that your boss knows will always turn out consistent quality teapots, and that’s essential for the customers? Or something else that makes your boss & coworkers say that about you?

      1. A Reader*

        Those are great points! I think it’s a little bit of both of what you asked: I can be counted on to pitch in and help out with a project, and my boss knows I can be assigned something and that it will get done. I am not sure how to convey that in a resume bullet point that doesn’t sound like “I do the work.”

        1. CoverLetterWoes*

          Have you seen the example resume here: https://www.askamanager.org/2013/11/this-is-a-resume-and-cover-letter-that-work.html

          I think there’s a lot of good language there for jobs that are hard to quantify, like:
          “Saved several service situations from escalating by assisting an upset guest and finding a way to meet their needs”
          “Maintained a reputation as one of the best cashiers in the store, due to high levels of efficiency, accuracy, and speed, resulting in promotion to Crew Leader”

          It sounds like you’d want to think of some overall commonalities among the projects you’ve helped out with or assignments your boss has given you. Like, “developed reputation for making sure all team projects were completed on time by helping coworkers where needed” or “maintained high level of project completion due to x, y, and z” or “completed all assignments well within timelines, which provided the quality control team more time to inspect products”.

  233. anonplussed*

    Hi there,

    I received a form from my grandboss (I’ve only interacted with said grandboss a handful of times) with a bunch of questions asking me to rank the quality of the environment at my company (specifically, the quality of management and whether I think the company is inclusive). There’s no room on the form to explain any of my answers. Is this a normal/effective thing that managers use to gauge the health of their workplace? What should I do?

    Honestly, my gut instinct is to just toss the form, because I seriously doubt that filling it out will help anything and am worried that if I rank anything poorly it will come across as a criticism of my manager when I don’t mean it to be (he’s very overworked, which isn’t his fault). I also don’t really feel qualified to talk about the company’s inclusivity as a whole.

    1. Beatrice*

      It’s normal in my experience.

      I’ve varied from not completing them, to completing them but whitewashing my answers, to answering honestly. How I answer depends on how much I trust my leadership to take my anonymity seriously and how much I trust them to use my feedback to actually improve things.

  234. Beatrice*

    My company is hiring. We’re 4 entry level people short, in a department that normally has about 15 entry level employees. It’s enough to be pretty painful, and we’re trying some new recruiting tactics because unemployment is so low it’s harder to find qualified people.

    At the same time, my husband’s nephew could use a better job. He’s not actively looking that I know of, but he’s getting frustrated with his current job, and he’d make at least 40% more at my company, plus benefits and PTO, which he currently doesn’t have.

    Guys, I don’t want him working at my workplace. I don’t know if he’ll work out…he doesn’t have a lot of traditional office experience, and no one in my husband’s family does (but they’re very big on dispensing advice, and listening to them caused a couple of minor career setbacks for me early on.) And my in-laws are really clingy co-dependent ‘faaaaamily’ types, and it has taken me years of disengaging to get them to leave me alone to the degree I want them to. He is the least terrible out of all of them, but still. I don’t want my in-laws getting new information or making new assumptions about my work life. I don’t want my coworkers learning new things or making new assumptions about my family life. The idea of my worlds colliding is really uncomfortable for me.

    I had a conversation with my husband about all this a week or so ago. The gist of the conversation was, “Am I a bad person/aunt/employee if I don’t want to tell Adam about this job opening?” And the conclusion we reached during the discussion was that my hesitation was reasonable and I didn’t owe it to him or to my employer to talk to him about it. And then my husband ran into Adam this week…and…told him about the job opening? And he definitely wants to apply, and wants to talk to me about it. So, after strangling my husband, what do I do next?

    1. Observer*

      Do nothing. Don’t reach out to him, don’t bring it up to anyone etc.

      If he calls you answer his questions, but don’t pitch the job or the company. If he brings up the idea of your helping him in some way, make it clear that you CANNOT help him. Don’t explain, just tell him that you cannot help help him.

      In the (unlikely) even that he applies and gets past the first screen, and anyone says anything to you don’t react much. Something like “Oh, Adam. Yes, my husband’s nephew. We’re not so close.” And leave it at that.

    2. LGC*

      I’d just say that it’d be awkward for you to get involved in his application, so you wish him the best of luck. It sounds like you have healthier boundaries with the inlaws now so it won’t be quite as shocking.

      (I mean, tell him about the job and what it involves if he asks, but don’t go further than that.)

      Also in defense of your husband…you said the conversation was about whether you were a bad person for not wanting to tell him about the job, but did you talk about whether he should be tipped off at all? I can see your husband not quite getting how deep your reservations run (or maybe he just blurted it out IDK).

  235. 653-CXK*

    This might be a longer post than usual, so bear with me.

    Next month will be the first anniversary of being let go from my ExJob after 21 years.

    I remember it was a warm day, and I had just started work when I got the tap on the shoulder from my supervisor. We went downstairs and my manager and an HR representative were there – the manager delivered the news that my they were terminating my employment (exact words). My supervisor escorted me back to my hoteling station to get my bags; she told me that she wanted me to transfer elsewhere, but management said no. I walked out of the building, stopped at the bank to deposit my final paycheck, had some lunch, and while initially I was ecstatic to be free of that toxic place, I had to explain to my family that I was let go. You bet your bippy I was terrified as hell, but they understood.

    I foolishly thought I would be back on my feet within weeks, but I was wrong. Thankfully, I had a lot of money saved up, and I was eligible for unemployment benefits. I sent plenty of resumes, and went on quite a few interviews. There were a lot of times of “this might be the one,” only to get the Letter of Nope (“Sorry, we’re not moving forward with your application”) the next day, sometimes less than an hour. I got ghosted regularly. I tried my best to occupy my time between cold calls from hiring agencies and getting the next Letter of Nope.
    By the tenth month of my “vacation with benefits”, I was thinking what those who have been unemployed for more than a year, “will I ever be hired again?” This came after my last unemployment check came in and I feared I would spend my savings down.

    The turning point came in a post from AAM. I don’t remember the date (it was sometime in January) and someone was thrilled they had gotten a job after nine months of unemployment. The light at the end of the tunnel came to me, and I said to myself, “That could be me also.”

    And sure enough, that light did come.

    I applied for a job that was a little further than what I was doing in ExJob (in terms of more responsibilities) in late January, had a phone interview in early February, was asked for references the next day, and then…silence. I feared I was getting the Letter of Nope, but then I contacted the manager who interviewed me. She apologized (she was out on personal business) and then gave me an offer. I was finally hired.

    The difference between NewJob and ExJob couldn’t be more different. It’s a much smaller company, the benefits are a little leaner (half an hour vs. an hour for lunch, defined vacations vs. ET, insurance more expensive) but I have a much shorter commute (it involves a walk to the bus stop, but it’s about five minutes vs. competing with the ‘five o’clock’ crowd), there are no “change at a whim” metrics and procedures, the office politics is (for right now) non-existent, and while some things appear like mud, I’m able to line up what I need to do (and document it so I don’t forget!) and already getting praise from my manager and other colleagues.

    Truman Capote was right: “Failure is the condiment that gives success its flavor.” I’m confident that I made the right decision in taking NewJob.

  236. Luna*

    I just started working in a hotel for dayshift. One week will be early shift, while the next week is the later dayshift. Both of those requires me to drastically change my sleep schedule to manage, with only two days off in-between to ‘adjust’.

    I already suffer from insomnia, so there’s already a gap between ‘going to bed’ and ‘falling asleep’ for me, and makes it very difficult to not fall into the category of ‘I didn’t sleep enough last night to properly function’. And this changing just sounds like it will prove detrimental to my health.

    I really don’t want to ask my hiring manager if it’s possible to set me to only be scheduled for one of those shifts, considering how new I am to the job. The hotel itself is very new, too. It hasn’t even been open for a month, so the hiring manager already has a lot on her plate.

    The thing is that I left a nightshift hotel job a few months ago because the nightshift was bad for my health. (It made me more easily susceptible to getting sick, and it set me back into a depression.) I told the hiring manager that I left said job/was mutually-agreed-to-be-let-go because of health issues.
    I do want to work for this hotel, and I know I can do the job entailed, but I am not sure if/how I can convey that this constant changing of my schedule (and sleeping schedule) will be bad for my health. I’m too worried that I’ll be told that things aren’t working out then, and be given a two weeks notice.

    1. WellRed*

      I wouldn’t, at least for now. If you needed a different schedule, the time to bring it up was at the offer stage.

      1. Luna*

        There was no offer stage. I was told I was hired, and I was given a schedule fast. There was no negotiating or anything like that on availability. I guess you could say it’s just assumed any employee for dayshift would be available, and health-based alright, with having a repeated change in shifts and sleep schedules. (I don’t have children that would limit my availability, for example)

        And I feel this is something I should mention, preferably sooner than later because I can tell that I am not working up to my usual standards. I don’t want to look like a bad employee because I am falling asleep while standing. This isn’t good for my health, it reflects badly on me as an employee (and I hate that because I usually am a good one), and things would probably only get worse if I don’t mention something soon.
        Obviously, I’m still in the probation period. But I cannot do this for six months, when probation ends.

        1. Luna*

          Now that I think about it, I wonder with whom I should bring this up with (first). My direct supervisor or the hiring manager? What with everything about the hotel being new, I really don’t know who is in charge of working out the schedules.

          1. WellRed*

            I’d probably start with your supervisor if you’ve already started working. Do they seem reasonable? You’re not asking for anything crazy. Honestly, I can’t imagine the rationale for the schedule they gave you. Even people without sleep issues wouldn’t like switching off like that. It’s unhealthy.

            1. Luna*

              Yes, he’s a very reasonable man. I asked one of the older employees (read: older by about a week or two at the job), and he said that the supervisor is in charge of the schedules.
              I brought it up with him, asking IF (after I learn how to do early shift stuff) it was possible to schedule me for only the late day shift. He said that, if that was my preference, he will mostly assign me late day shifts (meaning I work from early-ish afternoon to late evening). But that there might be times where I will have to do early shift — likely due to people going on vacation. Which is fine for me.

  237. Any ophthalmologists or optometrists out there?*

    A bit late to the game but I figured I would try!

    I have been having some legit irritating issues with my eyes and have been to 3 different facilities (2 optometrists and 1 ophthalmologist) who all say my eye problems are due to allergies but I have never had problems like this. Perhaps its due to allergies but I would like to see if anyone thinks it’s something different. I have spent a lot of money going to get my eyes checked (probably 6-7 visits and a lot of expensive eye drops). Each person has said that my eyes are perfectly healthy every time I’ve been.

    I have been a contacts wearer since I was in 5th grade (I am 31 now). I used to wear the 2 week contacts and a year and a half ago I started having weird eye problems and it’s the worst in my right eye. Extreme itchiness turns into me not being able to wear my contacts and if I do it worsens then eventually I get blisters underneath my eyelids and I have to use steroid drops to clear them up. This seems to be a repeating pattern every time I wear my contacts again and I even switched to dailies about 2 months ago and a week ago my eyes started to flare up again with terrible itchiness to the point where I want to scratch my eye balls out. I have used Pazeo eye drops but have just gone to (as of last night) over the counter Zaditor because I cannot continue to pay 100 dollars for eye drops (this is with insurance and a coupon). No change in vision and I don’t wear my dailies for more than one day.

    Can my eyes just not handle contacts anymore? I really don’t like wearing my glasses and would really rather pay for Lasik if I’m going to be a long term glasses wearer. It doesn’t help that I live in an awful allergy ridden city (Austin, Texas) and we have high levels of pollen and allergens in the air on a daily basis.

  239. Matthew*

    My former manager at my current employer moved on to a different company several months ago, and I’m interested in positions with that company. Are there any unwritten rules about asking him about jobs that are available or may soon become available with his new company? (He’s working in the part of the new company I’m most interested in, so I could potentially work for him again.)

    1. Sherlock*

      I’d take a look at the openings on their website. If you had a good rapport, I don’t think there’s anything wrong with sending your former manager any listings of interest. If there’s none, you could reach out and mention how you don’t see any postings at the moment but wondering if s/he could keep you in mind for any that arise in the future doing X. Good luck!

  240. Sherlock*

    Looking for opinions regarding whether or not I royally messed up the interviewing process…

    I’ve been in the process of interviewing with company A over the last month but haven’t been too sure of where I stood with them. The recruiter hasn’t been communicative with me regarding expectations of when a decision will be made and at one point I thought I was out of consideration, as I completed a phone interview, sent a thank you note to both the recruiter and hiring manager, and didn’t hear back from either. Then two weeks later I was requested to come in for a face to face interview. It was the last round of interviews in the process and I thought it went really well, as I met with 3 individuals – 1 of whom I got along with well with shortly after meeting and the individual later replied to the thank you note I sent. The next day I had an interview for company B – and to my surprise they made me an offer the same day! I really wanted to know where I stood with company A before making my decision. I emailed the internal recruiter explaining I had been made an offer with another company but very much enjoyed meeting the team the day before and was wondering where I stood regarding my candidacy? I hadn’t heard back by the next day and accepted the offer from company B. 24 hours later the offer from company B was pulled due to budget, and I still haven’t heard back from company A. I never told them I accepted the offer or what my thinking was, I was only asking about where I stood with them to better gauge interest. It’s now been a week without any response – have I managed to remove myself from consideration? Ugh.

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