open thread – April 19-20, 2019

by Alison Green on April 19, 2019

It’s the Friday open thread! The comment section on this post is open for discussion with other readers on anything work-related that you want to talk about. If you want an answer from me, emailing me is still your best bet*, but this is a chance to talk to other readers.

* If you submitted a question to me recently, please don’t repost it here, as it may be in the to-be-answered queue.

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  1. Busy*

    I went on an interview a couple months ago, and I wanted to know what you would do when the interviewers are doing something you find awkward, distracting or uncomfortable.
    At the interview, both the woman from HR and the male CEO had these super lingering intense stares. They didn’t read like you’re normal, “I’m looking at you and listening” stare – but that “I am attracted to you so I’m going to devour your soul” stare! And I just want to clarify that intense, prolonged eye contact like this where I live (Northern East coast) is not normal in business interactions. Think somewhere between “Eye F___ing” and what they refer to online as “sociopathic eyes”
    And once they made eye contact, they Would. Not. Break. It. Not for anything in the world! Not when someone else started talking. Not when I would break it. Not at all.
    I don’t know if they both went to some weird Carnegie business seminar for cult leaders that taught them weird eye-contact practices or what. They both had the same last name too! So I don’t know if they were related or not, and neither one ever explained if that was the case.
    And when they started doing it, I COULD NOT RECOVER. Every time I would look at them, they would be staring directly at me with a smile, eyes intense, and “leaning in”. Neither one ever broke off from the stare!!! I could not concentrate on anything. All I could think about is why this was happening and trying to come up with a reason for the stares. I couldn’t get those thoughts out of my head!!!!! Haha I could not concentrate at all!
    I didn’t want the job after this, because this was a small company, the CEO would be my boss, and there was NO WAY I could handle that every single day.

    Regardless of how you feel about eye contact in general, what do you do when your interviewer is doing something you find awkward or exceedingly distracting? I will be the first to admit that I am so bad at Dealing when someone is doing something awkward, particularly when that person is totally oblivious to it, so I was wondering what other people have done to or would do to “recover” here.

    I will post some videos/photos for context in the comments – and it is apparently HARD to find a video that give an actual example of this because it is THAT intimate of a look.

    2. Murphy*

      I wonder if they were trying to make sure they looked extra attentive and went waaaay overboard.

      1. Marion Q*

        Yeah, this. I have difficulty in making eye contact, so I tend to overcompensate by not breaking eye contact when I’m listening. It definitely goes overboard at times.

        1. Falling Diphthong*

          Yes, this sounds like the stuff done by people whose boss has berated them for not making sufficient eye contact in the past.

          And no, I don’t think there’s any way to say “Could we have less eye contact” in an interview. Or other social interaction, for that matter, unless you’re so clearly on the top that, as with removing green M&Ms*, people will do any weird thing to accommodate you.

          * Apparently this famous rider was added because the band had a lot of complicated instructions for stage set up so as not to catch fire during their act, so checking for green M&Ms was a quick way to check how carefully the contract overall had been followed.

    3. Bunny Girl*

      If the interviewer is making me really uncomfortable, I just try to end the interview as quickly as possible. Because if you’ve already made me uncomfortable in that small amount of time, I don’t really want to work with you.

      I had an interview at a hotel and my interviewer would not stop glancing at my chest. Like would not. I was like I’m not working with this creeper so I just picked up on something and said “Oh that doesn’t sound like it will work for what I’m looking for, so it doesn’t really make sense for us to continue. Thank you for meeting with me though!”

      In your case since you just met with two aliens I’d go home and burn some sage or something.

      1. Busy*

        “burn some sage” HAHAHA

        Have you ever heard those encounter stories about the “real” men in black? Like the ones that are supposedly just aliens in really poor disguises and behave and look kinda human, but do really awkward and weird things? THAT is exactly like what it was like to talking to these people. My mind panicked.

        1. Close Bracket*

          > just aliens in really poor disguises and behave and look kinda human, but do really awkward and weird things

          Those of us who actually are those awkward and weird people sometimes feel like we are in fact aliens on the wrong planet. In fact, there is a resource for people on the spectrum at wrongplanet.net.

          As I said below, for harmless things like this, learn to get over it.

          1. Close Bracket*

            k

            I’m on the spectrum, and I actually find your comments rather offensive, but sure, I’ll stop

            1. Close Bracket*

              I am sorry that I sniped. I will be more careful with my responses. It’s a hurtful subject, as I am sure you gauged.

        2. The New Wanderer*

          I interviewed with someone like this who would have been my direct manager. I had previously had a phone interview with her and that went awkwardly too, in that I felt like I was leading the whole conversation and had to do the entire wrap up at the end by myself. So I was prepared for the in-person interview to be more of the same and it was, with the addition of the unblinking stare. I didn’t find it that unnerving, exactly, but it was just more confirmation that I would find it difficult working for her.

          And I say that as someone who routinely thinks of herself as an alien on a long-term field study here, with the occasional missed social cues of someone who’s passing for human rather than *being* human. (I’m actually quite good in a work context because of all the effectively written rules to work! Except for the time I referred to humans as “you” and excluded myself from the category, whoops.)

        3. Anonforthis*

          Oh man, I had a similar experience a couple of years ago – the woman who was interviewing me had (I’m not making this up) pointy shark teeth and kept smiling at me like she couldn’t wait to eat my soul. I could not get out of there fast enough. It was like being interviewed by Pennywise the Clown.

      2. Batgirl*

        I was going to say cut it short too. Essentially is an interviewer is a stranger and if the chemistry isn’t right for any reason, they can remain a stranger.
        I used the ‘doesn’t make sense to continue’ line when an interviewer used the line “we’re like family!”. That’s not especially awkward but it wasn’t for me.

        1. Bunny Girl*

          I hear you there. “We’re like family” is a big no-no for me. Along with “we do a lot of team building activities and things when we get done with work.” That is an “Oh hell no” from me.

          1. froodle*

            There’s a company in my town that is constantly recruiting and advertising for staff and it uses both of those as a selling point in its ads. Every time it pops up on the job search I give it a long noooooooooo as I scroll on by.

    4. CupcakeCounter*

      What’s funny is that I just had the opposite happen! I could not get the interviewer (who was also the hiring manager) to look at me. No one else had any issues so I know I didn’t look weird or anything but she stared up at the ceiling half the time and at her paper the rest.
      I found out later she was recovering from surgery and on LOTS of pain meds which explains about half the odd vibes I got (no she did not drive herself to work) but still enough of a weirdness that it is giving me great pause over a position I was REALLY excited for.

      1. Bunny Girl*

        I had an interview where the opposite happened! I had just had relatively major surgery and went to an interview about a week after. They were about 40 minutes late to the interview (!) and they had no where for me to sit while I was waiting so by the time they finally called me in I was not in a good mood. And then to top it all off, they started talking to me about a seasonal position, which I had put on the application no less than three times that I didn’t want it and I was not ultra pleasant about it.

        1. Cup of Ambition*

          It seems fascinating how we are so obsessed as a society with having just the right amount of eye contact.

    5. Close Bracket*

      ” I wanted to know what you would do when the interviewers are doing something you find awkward, distracting or uncomfortable.”

      For this particular thing, I would recognize that my reaction to their look is about me and get over it. Lots of people have trouble with eye contact. It’s a particular characteristic with non-neurotypical people, but plenty of neurotypical people have trouble figuring out the right length of time to make eye contact, too.

      Harmless things of this nature, also including weird fidgeting or body language, I get over. The older I get and the more I understand the variety of human interaction, the less fazed I am by these things.

      1. Busy*

        My son is on the spectrum as am I. I am heavily involved in his treatment. And I will unequivocally say, stop trying to speak for all people on the spectrum. Telling people to accept it is like saying people on the spectrum have no self control. And they do. It is actually considered quite insulting.

        You have got to learn to control your interactions with other people. Not one, NOT ONE treatment plan doesn’t include self awareness.

        So, please stop on here, ok? You have really offended me.

        1. Alianora*

          I didn’t read their comment as speaking for autistic people. They said neurotypicals can have trouble with eye contact too.

          Since you were so uncomfortable with this, I think it makes sense to end the interview early. That’s true regardless of what the behavior is.

          But as someone who gives too much eye contact in interviews sometimes, I don’t think it’s reasonable to tell us “learn to control your interactions.” The reason many people have trouble is because we don’t have a natural instinct for how much is appropriate. It’s not because we’re trying to make other people uncomfortable, we just haven’t figured it out yet.

        2. Close Bracket*

          As I said above, I’m on the spectrum, too. Saying that trouble with eye contact is a characteristic of non-neurotypical people is not speaking for all people on the spectrum. It’s a well known characteristic. If you haven’t come across that yet, you should go back to your/your son’s care takers and find out more. Just as with all well known characteristics, different people exhibit it to different extents, including some non-autistic people.

          Having trouble with something is not a lack of self control. It’s not about self control. Eye contact in particular, for some people, can be about managing information input. That has nothing to do with self control. Your/son’s caregiver can tell you more about that, too.

          For me, learning I was autistic and learning which of my own weird, alien traits were spectrum characteristics made me *more* empathic to people who exhibit atypical body language, and I don’t need to know their neurotype to extend them that empathy. I’m actually ok with having offended you. It’s bad enough when non-spectrum people refer to my traits as “alien” or “psychopathic.” It’s even more hurtful with people on the spectrum do it. My advice remains the same: your response to prolonged eye contact is about you. Learn to get over it.

        3. Ask a Manager* Post author

          I don’t see Close Bracket saying anything that indicates they’re trying to speak for everyone on the spectrum and this is getting strangely heated. Please leave this here.

      2. Batgirl*

        I wouldn’t tell people to ‘just get over it’ when they’re talking about any kind of feelings. Especially if it’s just feelings and their outward behaviour was appropriate. Telling people how to feel is going to come over as rude even if it’s well intentioned.

    6. RJ the Newbie*

      Oh dear. I’m willing to bet that team studied the Isaacson biography of Steve Jobs. He was infamous for doing that and this one of the many traits Elizabeth Holmes (of Theranos) copied from him. It’s been copied, written about and extolled on Inc. and Forbes but I find it psychotic.

      1. MissDisplaced*

        I’ve seen Elizabeth Holmes’s photos and videos. CRAZY EYE.
        I also got to see Steve Job at MacWorld twice, and while he was certainly an intense high-strung type, I never got a crazy vibe. I never met him in person though, and rumors are he was notoriously difficult to work with. Elon Musk on the other hand… Crazy Eye.

    7. Quinalla*

      It’s tough when interviewers act strangely. What I’ve done when I’ve had instances of it is first give them the benefit of the doubt in my mind – ie try and come up with a kind and generous explanation for why they are doing it. Does not need to be right, just really helps me to get past it and not be fixated on the weirdness. Second, I will imagine what the response I am expecting is and try and respond how I would to that imaginary response vs. whatever they give me.

      For example, when I had an interviewer who was acting like he had zero interest in talking to me (this was back in college when interviewers would schedule back to back stuff, so quite likely) and generally I have no trouble getting interviewers interested in me, so it was very much a strange thing. I gave him the benefit of the doubt that I was yet another college student in a long line he had been forced to interview, maybe he was there as a sort of punishment since no one else wanted to do it. Then I responded to him like he was interested in what I was saying. It at least made me feel like I did what I could in case he really was paying attention.

    8. Phoenix Programmer*

      Hmm. We’re they in NE as well? I will say that some pockets of the NE are super squeamish about what a lot of the rest of the country sees as nicities. Eye contact, small talk, etc.

    9. Anon Anon Anon*

      I think if you’re getting a creepy feeling, it probably is creepy and you should probably put that job on the “last resort” list. As other commenters have mentioned, there are possible explanations. But if it was done in a way that came across as really creepy, listen to that!

    10. MissDisplaced*

      I say you trust your gut instinct.
      There may have been plausible reasons for all that Crazy Eye going on, sure, but Crazy Eye is still Crazy Eye!!!!!

    11. cmcinnyc*

      I used to work with a guy who was a normal, friendly, business-appropriate person but who truly believed that in an interview it was a good idea to present as an absolute robot–no reactions, no smiling, none of the little verbal cues people make like “huh!’ or “mm” when they’re interested or agreeing or surprised. He explained that making people uncomfortable in an interview was good because of course people come prepared and put their best foot forward and he wanted to “disrupt” that. Supposedly then he’d see what they were “really” like. I thought it was a horrible thing to do and said so but I had absolutely no power beyond stating that opinion so I imagine he’s still doing it. I actually liked working for him but if he’d been my interviewer I would not have taken the job.

      1. That Californian*

        That’s so incorrect! If anything, you meet more of the person when you meet them halfway. An initial feeling of success (like getting a question correct in an oral exam) or connection (like an interviewer saying “I liked that book too!”) lowers the interviewee’s affective filter, allowing them to access more of the information they know, and present it more clearly. I always kept that in mind when I was giving oral exams in the foreign language I taught, asking a relatively simple question first, and then giving a smile and a nod to show they’d responded correctly. People who came in very nervous and stuttery would suddenly relax and the conversation would flow much better.
        It doesn’t help if they just don’t know the subject matter, but if they do a little bit of kindness makes it so much easier to access.

      2. Miss Pantalones en Fuego*

        What a strange idea! How does being mildly hostile and manipulative help you get to know someone’s true personality?

    12. Free now (and forever)*

      I had an interview in law school for a summer internship with a large insurance company. The interviewer’s hair was slicked back and looked like it was coated with so much oil that it was practically dripping. I was skeeved out, to say the least (although in 1979, I hadn’t heard of that phrase). I sent the entire interview trying to decide if the interviewer had 1.) bad hygiene; 2.) an over fondness for Brillcream and forgot that “a little dab’ll do ya); or was doing it deliberately to see if he could distract job candidates. Needless to say, I didn’t get the job. Nor did I want it if I would have to work with him.

    13. Lilysparrow*

      I’m not saying this is the best thing – probably isn’t – but I tend to overcompensate and go into “hostess” mode, trying to put *them* at ease. Maybe it gives me an illusion of control?

      If it was something like the chest-staring mentioned upthread, I’d probably go with ending it early. But general weird/awkwardness tends to spark my “try harder!” instinct.

    14. Akcipitrokulo*

      I’m picturing being interviewed by Gowron…

      But yeah, it would creep me out. I don’t think I’d feel comfortable enough to say anything at the time – just direct my responses to the members of the panel that didn’t make me feel weird.

  2. Ms. Taylor Sailor*

    This happened two years ago, but I was thinking about it recently and was wondering people’s opinions. (And apologies if this topic has come up before! I’m fairly new to open threads.) I remember there was a letter by a LW who wanted to ask out an associate at a store she shopped at, but what about when it’s the other way around?

    I was waiting to be served at the deli section at the grocery store one night and, as usual, it took a very long time. There was one guy working who looked close to my age who was profusely apologetic for the wait and offered everyone samples. It was eventually my turn as the last in line, so there wasn’t really anyone else around. The deli associate was *very* chatty, but seemed friendly overall. He told me about how he was new to the area and planning on getting a master’s soon. (I live in a city with a well-renowned university.) I was receptive and talking to him was fine, but after the long wait, I mostly wanted to just get my cold cuts and finish shopping. (FWIW, he did a bad job with my cold cuts after making a huge point that he would do them perfectly…)

    After thanking him and going on my way to finish shopping, several minutes later, he follows me two aisles over to offer me a mint and ask me out for coffee. A co-worker was also in the aisle and encouraged me to say yes, which made the whole thing feel kind of awkward, but I figured why not and agreed.

    What are your guys’ thoughts? At the time, it felt kind of weird, but not so egregiously terrible that I wanted to run away or anything. But I also feel like if I was someone’s supervisor and found out they asked out a customer, I wouldn’t be thrilled about it. I feel like it’s particularly worse because we had never even met before that night, so it wasn’t like we had any kind of prior connection. I think he was more just looking to meet people in a new city than anything else, which I sympathize with, but I’m still not sure it was a great position to put me in, but please let me know too if I’m being too hard on him!

      1. Falling Diphthong*

        Customer service should not hit on customers while at work, and vice versa.

        Had the two of you run into each other elsewhere one of you could have asked the other for coffee, with the understanding that your future deli interactions might be weird if the other person wasn’t into you that way. (Though for this reason I am in favor of asking soon while the stakes are low and no one’s too invested, rather than after months of yearning and building up an elaborate vision of your future white-picket-fenced life together.)

      2. valentine*

        Also no. He didn’t even get your order right! You sound like you only said yes due to pressure and whose coworker it was matters. A good employee would get your order right, keep the interaction short because you had waited the longest (possibly this is different in the South or anywhere where you’d have to say goodbye to each other for 30 rounds before actually leaving), and not hit on you because you don’t bleep where you eat.

    2. INeedANap*

      Oh, wow, I would have felt very uncomfortable. Not necessarily just being asked out, but the co-worker urging me to say yes would have pushed this from “awkward but normal” into “this feels unacceptable”.

      I’m sympathetic the deli guy probably didn’t have any control over his co-worker, it’s not his fault, but regardless I would not be happy. I don’t think I would complain or anything, but it would definitely make me not want to shop there again!

      1. Ms. Taylor Sailor*

        Yeah, it’s not my normal grocery store, but I was driving around looking for something to eat and just figured I’d might as well get dinner and some groceries while I was at it. A new one that’s much closer to me opened up! I also use online ordering for cold cuts now so that they’re ready when I get there, though I’d estimate they’re only ready on time (or less than 10 minutes late) half the time…

    3. Plain Jane*

      If I was his supervisor, I’d ask him not to do that again. There’s too much potential to lose you as a customer if you’re not into it and feel awkward coming in after that.

    4. merp*

      Hmm. I’m not sure if this answers the question, but the issue to me with asking out a staff person somewhere is that they are basically a captive audience and their job requires that they be nice to you – I’m not sure it’s the same flipped around, because as a customer, there are fewer repercussions for saying no/acting less than thrilled.

      But that being said, if being asked out by a stranger made you uncomfortable, I am definitely not trying to invalidate that! Just that I wonder if his being at work had less to do with it? I’m not sure.

      1. merp*

        Oh also, was it his coworker encouraging you to say yes? Bc as a supervisor, I honestly think I would find that more worthy of talking to than the asking out, although it would definitely be fair to talk to both.

        1. valentine*

          as a customer, there are fewer repercussions for saying no/acting less than thrilled
          Not if Ms. Taylor Sailor is a woman. There was already the gross pressure from the coworker. Random people will jump in with “Just give him a chance!” It’s the nasty crossroads of sexism+Jumbotron, which abusers leverage to stalk their exes and make intensely pressured massive public displays about wanting them back.

          Also: I’d hate to have to avoid the deli or store because Bundy.

          1. merp*

            No, of course that’s true, I was coming at more from the direction of customer vs. staff power differential (i.e. who can walk out the door more easily) but it all intersects. I don’t want to sound like I think her discomfort is unfair at all, I would feel the same.

            1. LJay*

              I mean I think it can be.

              What if it was a pharmacy that was the only place she could get medication she needed?

              What if it was the only grocery store in the area so she had to go there to get food?

              You can just walk out the door as a customer. But you might need to come back.

              And if you’re afraid the person is going to retaliate in some way (like give you a hard time about getting your meds, or mess with your deli meat or similar) it’s problematic for sure.

              And even if you’re just uncomfortable being put on the spot I think rearrange your schedule to avoid the person who is making you uncomfortable, or decide to drive 10 miles out of the way to go to the next closest grocery store or pharmacy, or spend extra money to get stuff delivered I think can still be enough of an effect on your life to say that there can be a power differential.

              1. JunieB*

                I experienced something like this. I was asked on a date by a bus driver, and when I turned him down, he became icy and a little hostile. I was nervous about riding with him, and since I can’t drive, finding transportation downtown rapidly became a real headache.

      2. A.*

        Yes! An emt asked my friend out while she was riding in the back of the ambulance. Time and place. Not everywhere is “hunting grounds” for people to pick up dates.

        1. Penny*

          …seriously, an ambulance!? And it was meant seriously, not like a ‘just chatting to calm down an injured person’? What the heck!

          1. Scarlet Magnolias*

            That’s like the Carrie Fisher story where she overdosed and was asked out by the doctor reviving her

        2. Ms. Taylor Sailor*

          Oh boy. I’m pretty sure that’s not the type of “savior” she was looking for at that moment…

        4. Auntie Social*

          My EMT wouldn’t transport me because a cute female EMT had just pulled up and he went to talk to her. I finally said “it looks like I’m not going anywhere, so guy EMT, give your digits to girl EMT, and she’ll call you if she wants to, RIGHT?” to which girl EMT said “yep”, and I finally got transported. It was post-op to a rehab hospital and not an emergency, but it still P’d me off and I was in a buttload of pain besides. Still grrr.

          1. Seeking Second Childhood*

            THIS one is reportable in my opinion. Customer waiting possibly in pain or under orders to do followup care? No excuse for delay.

      3. epi*

        That is where I fall.

        I can absolutely see why this felt uncomfortable. Ms. Taylor Sailor was kind of trapped in this interaction with him– she had taken the time to wait for service so she couldn’t leave without it being clear she didn’t want to interact with this guy anymore, specifically.

        I have also been a grocery employee asked out by a customer and it is so awful. It’s not like I could stop going to work, or even really leave the area when he came back, because I was a bagger. Same thing with subsequent retail jobs where I was just clearly being hit on even if the person didn’t ask me out– there is a power dynamic because you have to continue being warm to a customer unless they really cross a line. It’s harder to take the risk of offending the person.

        It sucks to be in the situation Ms. Taylor Sailor was put in, being able to see the one-sided interest coming but without a graceful way to acknowledge it and decline, or just end the conversation. But IMO it is social awkwardness that could happen the same way between peers, whereas asking out someone who is working also risks exploiting a power differential. It probably was inappropriate for this guy to ask out a customer, especially while he was working– but the transgression was against his employer. That’s who is hurt by his wasting time at work and potentially making a customer not want to come back.

        1. merp*

          I feel like you said this better than I did, thank you. I don’t want to minimize her experience at all, I would hate being in that situation.

          1. Ms. Taylor Sailor*

            No worries at all! I don’t feel like you minimized it whatsoever. I appreciate hearing the perspective of the different power dynamics.

        2. Retail manager*

          Actually no about being the bagger feeling like she was captive. Not no to your feeling but your manager should have handled this. This happens often and depending on the severity we would send the employee on an errand or a break. In the case of a customer who talked and talked to the customer we told him the cashier would get in trouble (she wouldn’t). In some cases we tell the customer to leave or bankaccounts them from the store. Zero tolerance for customers harassing the staff.

      4. Falling Diphthong*

        The power dynamic is flipped but the awkwardness dynamic is not. If the approach is unwelcome then customers may decide not to shop there any more, thereby avoiding any awkward requests for pastrami by asking at a deli with married meat slicers.

        The bystanders weighing in was omg stop, inappropriate in all contexts.

    5. Aspiring Chicken Lady*

      Inappropriate, with or without the coworker.

      This was the first time you met him. That’s always creepy to me.

      Long time association with a service provider with friendly chatting that has continued to develop, well, that might be something ok. Coffee date next door or something.

      1. AvonLady Barksdale*

        I was once asked out by a jury cop on his last day working with us (I was on the jury). The trial wasn’t over but he had to leave for another assignment, and as he walked me out the door he asked if I wanted to get together. I told him to call me, he never did, but he was a pretty nice guy. I’m sure it wasn’t the most appropriate thing, but we had spent a couple of weeks in each other’s company and I didn’t feel weird about it.

        1. Nacho*

          Stories like this are why people keep doing it. It’s creepy 99% of the time, but everybody’s heard that one super romantic tale about the couple who met this way.

          1. Cedrus Libani*

            I think there’s a difference between asking out a person you’ve met in a public space (but there’s been non trivial, repeated interaction between you, enough to establish some level of compatibility) and asking out someone you literally just met. The latter is creepy. Dude, all you know about me is that I have tits and a pulse. If that’s all you want in a woman, then no, we are NOT compatible.

            1. AvonLady Barksdale*

              That’s exactly it. In the case of me and the jury cop, we had interacted very pleasantly for a couple of weeks and we were also at the point where we would likely never see each other again. I thought his timing was really good and his approach was appropriate, to be honest. It was the least creepy way to ask someone out.

            2. Ella bee bee*

              Yes to this. My sister is marrying a man who she met because she is a bartender and he was a regular at the bar, but he didn’t ask her out until they had known each other for a few months.

          2. Maya Elena*

            I’d probably push back on the 99% breakdown; I’d intuitively put it closer to the reverse. It takes a pretty small percentage of free riders to destroy a system based on trust. If even 5% of guys who do this do it in a way that is threatening or creepy, and make women frown at the practice (especially when described by a third party, rather than it happening to them specifically). Analogously, workplaces that feel threatening or unwelcoming to women aren’t that way because all, or even a majority of men are leering and groping them; it only takes a few to cast the pall.

          3. Lissa*

            I don’t even think it’s creepy 99% percent of the time! I think it probably doesn’t *work* 99% of the time, but I’d say that plenty of times it’s somewhere between “flattering but no thanks” and “annoying but not threatening.” Or like Avonlady’s story, both people are mildly interested but it doesn’t go anywhere. (Please note I am not saying it’s not often creepy, but that can also be subjective, ie where one person might find something creepy another might not, etc.)

            Personally I also think it’s just like, not usually a particularly great way to meet someone and has a pretty high chance of making them uncomfortable. Sometimes there genuinely can be an awesome dynamic/spark between two people, but it’s hard to know when you’re misreading that too.

    6. Anonariffic*

      Yeah, that might not be worst possible red flag but it’s definitely a yellow card. Asking as a natural next step after chatting for a bit would be one thing, but tracking you down in the aisles after your first conversation has ended and you walked away is a little creepy.

      Saying this as someone who did date my Starbucks barista for a while after he asked me out, but I was working a very early shift at the time and am NOT a morning person, so I probably knew him better than I knew a number of my coworkers.

      1. Elizabeth West*

        I’m with you on this one. If you’ve had a ton of interaction prior and there seemed to be mutual interest, then maybe.

    7. MissDisplaced*

      I guess I’m kind of old school in my take as I’m a dating dinosaur from the days before online dating was a thang, but I don’t feel he was crossing the line or being harassing.
      Why? Well, it was a public place. The ask was to meet for coffee and chat, and then put the ball in your court as to the when/where and if you decided you were interested and decided to exchange contact info. However, your friend shouldn’t have pressured you to accept, and you certainly had no obligation to accept if you felt uncomfortable.

      Should DeliGuy have done this at work? Probably not, but Meh! It was a market not an office, which in my mind makes a difference–and as long it wasn’t done in a weird stalkerish manner (such as following you to your car). Actually, I kinda give him props for being so brave. Tone/politeness of the ask makes all the difference too, such as him giving you his number and letting you decide if you want to further the acquaintance. It’s difficult to meet anyone if you never open up and talk to people (even in nonsexual ways). Back in my day, a guy showing his interest in you in this manner wouldn’t have even warranted a blink, but I realize people have very different ideas about asking people out today.

      Curious though, DID you meet him for coffee? Because you sound like you were kind freaked out or not really interested. Which is fine. You definitely shouldn’t feel pressured.

      1. Ms. Taylor Sailor*

        I get where you’re coming from for sure! And I think it’s great when people have the courage to go for it and ask someone out. I’ve certainly done it and got turned down, but that’s how you find out!

        However, and maybe I’m just cynical, but in my mind, it’s weird to me to ask someone out while you’re working, particularly a total stranger. Like you’re at work to do your job, not look for opportunities to meet people. Not exactly the same, but there was a different deli I had gone to to get cold cuts. The wait was already bad enough, but the guy helping me would *not stop talking.* I’m all for small talk, but he moved at a snail’s pace all the while trying to carry on a conversation after I’d already been waiting for awhile. I eventually just got a little more curt with each answer while trying to be polite just so that we could move along.

        And yes, I did meet him for coffee. He overall was fairly nice and we had some stuff in common, but I wasn’t really interested or looking to date at the time and we parted ways after texting a couple times after.

        1. Maya Elena*

          That’s great! Sounds like nothing problematic here as far as I can tell. I’d say him not being attractive or dating material is separate from whether he should or should not have asked you out, or whether such behavior should be ABSOLUTELY TABOO FOR PEOPLE (or men specifically) in similar contexts. I think if he’d demonstrated behaviors more attractive to you – e.g. did his job better and not talked so much, you would probably have welcomed being asked out more. Or if he was more physically attractive.

          To summarize and bring it back into the work context, I would probably not have report it. :D

          1. I'm just here for the comments*

            I’m confused where physical attractiveness comes into all of this? The guy spent waaay too long doing her order after an already long wait, he seemed unable to read social cues where her answers became shorter and more curt the longer he took, and she didn’t enthusiastically accept the invite to coffee (it was accepted AFTER being pressured by another worker). Saying that she would’ve been happier if he was better looking is pretty insulting, it’s the kind of thing you read on incel (“involuntary celibates”) forums where guys complain that they can’t get sex or dates or women to look at them, solely because of their looks (and not, you know, because of their behavior). What we each find physically attractive is subjective to the individual anyway, so while his behavior was not especially egregious it was also the reason his advances were not welcome.
            On a similar vein, I think people are less thrilled by/ more aware that the act of following someone around a store and continuing to engage them when they don’t return the interest is not desirable behavior. While its not the level of flashing red lights and going “danger! danger Will Robinson” its also not a great way to get a date.

        2. Batgirl*

          I was going to say the same as Miss Displaced, that it’s not egregious to ask out a not-at-work stranger person in public spaces as long as it’s a simple yes/no question and there’s no hovering or pressure.

          I think there’s a few unacceptable variables in your version though. He asked you out semi-publicly which added pressure. While a customer technically has more power, no one is immune to social pressure. You were also busy and he hasn’t the awareness to have realised that. Following you isn’t great either. It’s not creepy, but rather more … unimpressive and hilarious that he asked you out after giving you terrible, thoughtless service!

        3. Le Sigh*

          I have been in a very similar situation. And what bugged me wasn’t being asked out (I declined for many reasons, everything about that situation was bad), it was that the guy dragged out what should have been a 10 min transaction into 30+ minutes. It was the last place to get food for many miles on a car trip and I wanted to eat STOP WASTING MY TIME TO BADLY FLIRT WITH ME YOU’RE HOLDING MY NUGGETS HOSTAGE.

    8. Canonical23*

      In theory, I don’t think a service worker asking a customer out crosses a line if both parties were chatting and there’s general interest – they’re at their job and you can easily leave to go to a different restaurant/coffee shop/store/etc. which is a different power structure than say, you asking out your waitress who HAS to be nice to you.

      But in actuality? The way the guy did it was really weird – the coworker pressuring you, the aisle tracking…that makes it way more odd then chatting at a check-out line, hitting it off and exchanging numbers.

      1. Busy*

        My reaction as a customer would depend on the vibes this guy gave me and if I felt we had a connection. If if he was creepy vibing it, I would probably just never go there again.

        As a manager, it would be a hard no, and at least a serious talking to. Like I don’t care if she said yes or you weren’t creepy about it, do not go out of your way to make my customers feel awkward coming here!

    9. Liz*

      Hmm. i have known situations where it DID work out, but this seems like a. he tried too hard, and b. the co-worker make it just that much more awkward by encouraging YOU to say yes. he may have some social awkwardness, which could account for his not so subtle asking you out, but i would have felt uncomfortable as well.

      in the instance I know where it worked out; i worked in a women’s store in a nice strip mall. next to it was a causal not-so-fast-food restaurant. one of my CWs thought one of the managers there was attractive, and i guess the feeling was mutual. he asked her out, she accepted, and they’re now married with 2 kids!

    10. The Man, Becky Lynch*

      Yeah in general, asking out a customer is not a good look and frowned upon.

      However in retail and service, they don’t have as many boundaries or are held to exceptionally high professional standards. I’m mostly worried if he didn’t clock out to go on break first or abandoned the massive line to hunt you down…

    11. Anona*

      Yeah, I don’t think he should have done that. If he was a fellow grocery shopper, OK. But it’s not cool that he asked you out on the clock. If I was his manager, I’d tell him not to ask out customers while working. Because it can make them uncomfortable– they’re just there trying to get their deli meat!

      If his shift had ended and he’d asked you out in the parking lot, it would still be weird, but more OK, in my opinion.

      1. WellRed*

        I agree about not asking out on the clock but highly recommend not tracking someone you don’t know down the parking lot.

    12. Nacho*

      This feels like one of those things that’s creepy unless it works, and that rom-coms have been telling us for about a century works way better than it really does.

      1. Liv Jong*

        I tell all my coworkers to not date customers, which is extremely hypocritical because I married one.

        He was a regular who had already dated one of the other bartenders and had a reputation for being a gueniene guy and a great tipper. The only red flag was how fast we fell in love, moved in together, and married. It did end up costing me that job, but it ranks 1 or 2 on my list of worst employer so it was actually a win.

        I know we’re the exception and not the rule, so my rule still is don’t date customers.

    13. Maya Elena*

      I think a non-threatening, non-sexual approach, in an open space before witnesses – where you don’t feel threatened if you say know – and especially after a friendly conversation, with “hey! would you be interested in having coffee together sometime” or an equivalent…. I think that’s perfectly fine.

      If he’d said something like “hey babe, I like your butt”, then that would have been inappropriate and weird. Or texted you on your phone number that he got because he was the cable guy. That would be legitimately creepy and – in the latter case – probably reportable.

      But for this guy though: sheesh dude, put in some effort with the cold cuts.

    14. LJay*

      Yeah, that’s definitely uncool.

      If I were his manager he would at the very least get a stern talking to about why you can’t do that.

      When you’re working, you’re there to advance the company’s interests, not your own. It would be uncool for him to try and divert you to his legitimate business. It would be uncool for him to try and sell you his MLM product or stuff from his kid’s fundraiser. And it’s uncool to ask you out.

      Also, putting someone on the spot and asking them out may make them uncomfortable/their trip unpleasant and thus less likely to shop there. If he were making the customers uncomfortable by saying rude things he’d get a talking to. If he were making the shopping experience unpleasant by being inattentive he’d get a talking to.

      I don’t think you’re being too hard on him. I think if you want to you can go and mention it to his manager. They probably would like to know that that was happening. But that’s also not something you need to do if you do not want to/don’t want to get him in trouble over it.

    16. Amethyst*

      I’ve worked in several retail stores over my career & this is very, very strictly inappropriate. I know that if this happened at any of the stores I worked at they would’ve had a Serious Talk over this incident, regardless of the customer’s answer.

      Story time:

      I had something similar happen once when I was about 20 or 21. I was working at a grocery store, & this old guy would always be around, so we’d chat for a few minutes before going on to whatever we were doing, which was usually me selling him some lottery tickets. It got to be a regular thing.

      Then the day came when he said something really fast & really quietly while I was working at the service desk, so I had no idea what he’d said. (Quiet/fast voices & I do not mix, particularly in noisy settings. There was also a speaker literally right above my head within the desk, which was constantly going off with a page or another.) He repeated himself about 4 more times, & I still hadn’t the foggiest idea what he’d said, so my default was to read his face & body language (which was extremely hopeful, btw) & nod.

      He got really excited & asked me when I’d get off work. “5.”

      “Great! I’ll pick you up at 5!”

      & it was exactly then that I realized what he’d asked me & all I could think of was, “F*ck. F*ckity f*ck f*ck f*ck.”

      He showed up at 5, a little more dressed up than usual.

      Turns out the guy thought I was interested in him as more than friends. (He was 63 years old for god’s sake! & I was only being friendly, which is what I always do when I’m around people.)

      To make things worse, I was dating my best friend at the time, so I had to figure out a way to let him down while he’s going on & on about “What will your parents think about our relationship?” & stuff while he’s bringing me home, anticipating his introduction to my parents.

      It was super awkward when I made him pull over at the corner of one of the streets leading to my house & informed him I was seeing someone else at the time, etc. I never saw the dude again.

      *massive facepalm*

    17. Lilysparrow*

      This was not a good move and yes, I can’t imagine a decent supervisor being okay with this.
      But ultimately if you weren’t terribly put off or scared or creeped out, then it doesn’t need to be a big deal.

      OTOH, you should bear in mind the things you have learned about him from this interaction:

      1) He is more interested in venting his feelings than in meeting other people’s needs – even when he’s being paid to meet those needs.

      2) He brags about doing things well but actually does them badly.

      3) He is oblivious to, or willfully ignores normal social boundaries like “don’t hit on customers” and “don’t make a public spectacle of asking someone out” and “this woman is here to obtain food, not to be hit on.”

      So the likelihood that your coffee date will be highly enjoyable or lead anywhere you want to go, is very very slim.

    18. Ms. Taylor Sailor*

      Just realized I wasn’t clear! By “a co-worker,” I meant HIS co-worker who was also working and restocking selves at that moment.

  3. Anon this time*

    I would love some help reframing a difficult work situation.

    I work in a medium sized tech startup. I was recruited about a year ago to develop some processes to streamline the client experience. I did this work at my last company, where our processes where tight. Things are a lot more haphazard in my new company. Different tasks are owned by different people and the client experience is really haphazard. It took me over six months to get my process change proposal approved, and I’m finally making progress in getting some improvements in place. But I’m getting a lot pushback from the old guard. Other managers feel like I’m encroaching on their territory, and people are really, really possessive of their old tasks. My manager is super supportive, and I get a ton of positive feedback. My colleagues are borderline hostile. People avoid eye contact, are curt, avoid me, pushback, and call me out in public. I do have a handful of colleagues who I have positive relationships with, but overall I feel like persona non grata. I was looking for a new job for a while, but this role is a good career move for me. I was a senior individual contributor in my last job, and in this one I’m building a process and buildingn a team. I need to be in this place for a while before I could jump to another company in a manager role. I’m not really interested in taking a step back to another individual contributor role. But the day to day is just so incredibly difficult. People tell me off in meetings, exclude me, or just plain cut me off. I’m committed to seeing this project through, but my interactions with my team are so incredibly demoralizing. I’m looking for ways bolters my emotional state after hostile meetings and negative interactions. I already share my frustrations with my boss, and I have a habit of walking to a nearby park to cool off, but I can’t vent to my boss or walk to the park three times a day.

    1. Would-be manager*

      Honestly? It sounds like you need to think more about your change management process. What are you doing to consult with people and get them on board? If you’re just trying to get them to change… that’s not usually ever how that works even in the healthiest of organisations.

      1. Busy*

        Well the thing about change management though is that it usually doesn’t work when the person making the changes in the only one managing change management. What it sounds to me like is happening here is that upper management that wants this to happen, has not been clear enough with the rest of the employees on their desire for this change and the role Anon this Time has. Top management is absolutely failing here, because it is extremely difficult if not impossible to bring people onboard for change when they are new, work on a similar level of other people, and do not seemed to have the heavy involved backing of top management.

        As a matter of fact, being an employee ALONE can make it difficult. A lot of businesses hire outside consulting companies to make changes due to this alone.

        I would talk to your manager, explain the attitudes you are getting, ask them what they think you could do differently, and then press them to make it known their intentions to the other employees.

        I would also recommend reading upon change management and the fears people have related to change. It won’t fix this, because upper management is the only ones who can, but you will at least get an idea of WHY people push back against change.

        1. Anon this time*

          Thanks Busy – you’re spot on in describing the situation. AFAIK, my VP hasn’t communicated anything about my role to anyone. My direct manager – director – has done a better job, but he’s new and getting push back as well.

          1. Busy*

            Exactly. My entire career has been change management. And if management isn’t going to be fully engaged, it will fail. I mean sure you might be able to introduce some superficial new process or system, but it will never really be used.

            Just don’t take it personal, know you rock at what you do, and explain to your manager that upper management is tying your hands. Research some of that change management stuff, throw it at your boss, and say we need to stop focusing on system change and start focusing on how to get management to express interest. And be very clear that if that doesn’t happen, this will all fail – as in you are setting the goals and objectives for what makes this a success or failure at this stage. And meanwhile, job hunt in the event they do not change, because they are setting you up for failure.

            1. Anon this time*

              Busy thank you so much. This is very validating. Also, I was thinking I needed to deal with my emotions, and you’re steering me in the direction of doing things better. Are there any change management resources you’d recommend for a newbie? My background is in project management and implementing project management processes. I haven’t encountered this type or resistance in previous roles.

              1. Busy*

                I cannot remember any of the books I had read previously, but if you google the psychology of change management, it brings up lots of resources – and most of them are free.

                These guys sort of sum up a good bit of it https://www.mckinsey.com/business-functions/organization/our-insights/the-psychology-of-change-management

                But if you want a summation, it is that people react with fear. All those no’s, and eye rolls, and passive aggressive behavior, and challenging you – all of that is fear. You can do this one or two ways to alleviate it for yourself a bit:

                1. find out what they are afraid of (hint: it is ALWAYS how it will affect them, their ego, and their employment. Sometimes it is because they are hiding a whole lot of unethical stuff, but its rarer)
                2. Figure out a way to present it that assuages their fears of the above.
                3. Know you will not get everyone on board, and decide now what you are going to do with those people
                4. Be constantly “there”. Like this project isn’t going away. Email reminders, meetings with objectives – put their peer pressure on to perform.

                At the end though, no one may get on board and it may fail if management doesn’t intervene soon and keep yourself grounded by that fact. Right now that is the biggest threat to failure – not anything you are doing.

              2. Wheezy Weasel*

                I’d recommend John Kotter’s 8 Steps to Leading Change (link in my username) as a good introduction and framework to explain it to management.

                1. Herminone Changer*

                  I second Kotter but have also found the Switch model useful for leading change from the bottom. The Hitchhikers Guide to Lean also has a really practical framework that you can use to engage leaders and set up other areas of success.

          3. Flash Bristow*

            You might appreciate the book Death March by Edward Youdon. It’s aimed at software developers thrown into car crash projects but I found it useful in general.

          4. President Porpoise*

            We’ve recently gone through something similar here. Mandatory MAJOR changes (reorganization, automation, staff hiring, new policies, etc.) to deal with regulatory failures. At first, people grumbled and not much was done. Our top brass was on board – because it could have crippled our business in a debarment sort of way – but we were having trouble changing company culture and managing the increased workload that came with the change process. What helped was more overt top leadership involvement, integrating examples of the needed change into all facets of corporate communication – newsletters, training, ethics vignettes, etc. – heavily funding the changes, and most importantly getting buy-in from the affected organizations wherever possible. If you want people to make changes, you need to try to take their input on the improvements they’d like to see, even if they’re in addition to what you have to do.

          5. Akcipitrokulo*

            I think there needs more communication – first, from upper management, and second, possibly from you – and you are in a position to insist that it is necessary for your work – talk to people, take their suggestions on board and convince them that you are listening to their concerns. I think it might be difficult now it seems to have been entrenched into an us and them (or us and her) situation – but still worth trying.

            1. Akcipitrokulo*

              And second point is not suggesting that you’re not good at that! It sounds like you’ve been unable to do it?

        2. Artemesia*

          This. When you have lazy management that things hiring someone and tasking them with change management will do the trick, you have failure. You cannot succeed against the pushback of old hands if the top management is not aggressive about the need for the change. I have seen this fail so many times. Either top management does what it takes and it may mean re-organizing and reassigning people and also firing people who are resistant or it fails. A newbie with low status and little history cannot make this change happen without this support. And effective change requires engaging everyone first in understanding the need for change, then in giving input on what might address the issues, and only then in making changes.

      2. Anon this time*

        To answer your question, I’ve been meeting with the team in groups and individually since last summer, much more frequently in the last 3 months. Things have gotten much better – people are hesitantly onboard. Yes, I can probably do more work on the change management, but right now I’m just trying to figure out how to get through the day.

    2. Workerbee*

      I’m so sorry you’re experiencing this! Very hostile, I agree.

      From your follow-up comment, can you get the VP to sit down and talk with these people? They will at least then realize that this is a Wanted Change, it’s a leadership directive, and that you aren’t doing this just to pass the time.

      The ongoing hurdle is, of course, getting past the hostility and any of the “Oh, we LOVE change! This is great!” that you may get after the VP’s intervention, which sounds wonderful until the point where you see that they’re not doing a damn thing differently. (I have this in my department. Great talkers! Great going-to-meeting-ers! Great doers? Nope.)

      Is there anyone within the old guard who you can start cultivating as an ally–such as in that handful of colleagues? I did some poking around when I first got brought in, and uncovered a crop of people who really did want change, but had been beaten down by the system/old guard and didn’t know what to do about it. I’ve been able to start making inroads by partnering with them and keeping my boss firmly in the loop, including telling him when he needs to make something happen because it’s gone to his level.

    3. Checkert*

      It doesn’t sound to me like your manager is very supportive, I wonder if they’re paying you lip service? Support in this realm would mean helping you advocate to leadership and/or using their position to influence their manager peers or higher. If they are not helping you mitigate these roadblocks when you go to them to ‘vent’ (aka ask for help), they are not supporting. Manager support in change management is not the same as managing individual contributors, it doesn’t end with ‘you’re performing to expectations’. If they’re not willing to advocate for you, then that is actually your first and foremost roadblock and they are becoming part of the problem. Can you go to them and be specific with what you need from them, such as advocacy?

      1. Anon this time*

        My manager – the director – is way better than my VP. At first I was on my own completely, then I started asking him to join committee meetings to throw his weight in with the other director. This has helped, at first, my manager was doing all the talking and running the meeting, and now, I’m doing most of the talking and running my meetings. I wish I didn’t have to borrow authority from him to get things done, because it undermines my own authority… I can ask him how much he’s advocated for me in private with the other director on the team. I can’t depend on my VP doing anything helpful to support me. He doesn’t remember things very well (sometimes forgets things that he said 5 minutes earlier), and tends to derail projects he’s already approved….

        1. Busy*

          Don’t look at it as borrowing authority, but as him asserting your authority with these people.

          Like saying “This Big Change is going to happen and Anon This Time is in charge of this Big Change.”

          But the VP needs to be making this clear to his reports that Big Change is going to happen and at least insinuate that there will be repercussions if they don’t get on board.

          Plus, making a project plan and including some kind of audit afterwards (under the important idea that anything new needs checked to see if it is working or not *plan-do-act-check* and all the other PM stuff). Include that this will be gone over with top management, and that any failures will require corrective actions. This obviously will make them realize they are gonna be followed-up with after implementation.

    4. Hillary*

      This was me at my last job. My department was supportive, but outside our team not so much. Honestly, I accepted that I was the bad guy, I did what had to be done, and I got a much better job a couple years later. I left my replacement with a better position.

      I also went to therapy and worked a lot on not taking stuff personally. It took a lot of work to get it through my head that the resisters were reacting out of fear and it wasn’t about me. With some people it doesn’t matter how good your change management is, they’re just idiots, jerks, or too self interested to see the bigger picture.

    5. CM*

      I think my main question is, what happens when people refuse to cooperate with you? Are they being told by their bosses that this is something they need to go along with or are they being told you’re annoying and they can push back?

      I ask because, I once worked somewhere really dysfunctional (with similarly diffuse responsibility where every manager did everything their own way) and only a few of the senior execs agreed that there was a problem and tried to hire people with expertise to come in and fix things. The other execs did not agree that there was a problem and actively encouraged their teams to be hostile and non-cooperative. If that’s what’s happening to you — if there’s a battle going on above you — there might not be a lot you can do.

      However, if you want to improve your day-to-day interactions with people and make it harder for them to show contempt for you, my advice is to slow down and not try to steamroll them into compliance. Instead, really, really gently and patiently talk through what’s bothering them, why they’re against your ideas, why you think this will be better etc — not because you should “have to” but because that might help defuse the situation. If they feel like you’re being really considerate of them and their feelings, it will be harder for them to justify being a jerk toward you and the tone of the conversation might change.

    6. OhGee*

      I echo what the others have said. I’m six months in to a role that is new to my organization, and very change management focused. I try to take the lead in rolling out processes, and I’ve occasionally run up against a historic tendency to include absolutely everyone in every planning meeting, but now that I’ve identified key players and reinforced when I need either backup from managers or for a manager to roll out a policy I’ve created, things are running much more smoothly. It’s still sort of a lonely position, because the rest of the team all do the same type of work and I don’t, but people understand what I’m doing and have learned that I welcome their input. Consensus-building and backup from leadership are huge here.

    7. Endurogirl*

      Oh man, I feel for you so much! Change management is becoming a huge focus in my career, and I’ve gone through three different organizations in the midst of big changes (two public hospitals and a private tech company). The hospitals were terrible and while reactions weren’t quite as terrible as you describe, the overall feeling was definitely bleak.
      The best program one of my bosses paid for our group to go through was the “Change Acceleration Process” from GE. I believe you can also find some of the material online, but it’s all about how to get everyone on board with wanting and driving change, not dragging people blind, kicking and screaming.
      Good luck to you, and remember, it’s really not about you: Change is hard for everyone, that’s why us rock stars make careers out of it :)

    8. The Other Dawn*

      I feel you on this. I started a new job last month and a big part of my job will be to make some big changes in my department, some of which will affect other areas of the company.

      After several not-so-good audits/exams, the company swung the pendulum too far to the right in fear of more poor audit/exam results. The problem with that ultra conservative approach is a lot of extra work that doesn’t necessarily need to be done. Or at least not to the scale to which it has been done in years past. The department is twice the size as the one at my previous company, and that previous company was twice the size, but still could use another person to cover the mountain of work that conservative policies and procedures has created. They now want to pull back in certain areas, which can be difficult in a regulated industry after having a few years clean audits and exams with the ultra conservative approach.

      Coming in, my manager told me I’d have an uphill battle in some areas, but that she and the CEO, and some other executive management were on board with change. They purposely brought an outside person on board because they wanted fresh eyes to assess the department, someone who didn’t have the history with the company and has seen the same things done in other, more efficient ways.

      What I’m finding so far is that most of my team is really on board and wants change, with the exception of one person who hates change, and is completely overwhelmed because of the conservative processes but won’t give anything up (this will be a separate situation to deal with). Other people in the company want change, but there are definitely some people–long-timers and other people who were trained by one of the very conservative people–who want things to stay as they are, either because “that’s the way it’s always been done” or they’re convinced that we’ll be open to huge risks if we change anything at all. I’m not yet sure about my plan of attack with those people, but I’m thinking of tying it into an initiative that’s been going on for a couple years, the gist of which is that we make things easy for the customer and ourselves. Many of the things being done now are contradictory to that. I’m thinking, too, that I will bring my manager in on one particular matter since she’s an EVP. From what I understand, this matter has been looked at several times to find ways to streamline in a way that still protects us, but also makes it easier for the employees and customers; however, nothing has changed because the person asked to look at the process (my predecessor) was one of the ultra conservative people.

      Good luck and I hope we can both make some impactful changes!

  4. Anon for this*

    We’re a heavy industrial construction company.

    The new D&A policy just came down from on high. This caught my eye: “Prescription Drugs. Any employee using a prescribed medication shall inform his/her supervisor prior to using prescribed drugs and must have written permission to possess these drugs while working on the jobs.”

    My $0/02 is a hard no.

    Thoughts?

    1. four lights*

      I’m not sure what norms/legalities are, but it sounds like this may be an issue with side effects. A lot of drugs warn against operating heavy machinery.

      1. Nacho*

        Was going to say the same thing, yeah. You might want to clarify with someone if it’s supposed to be all prescription drugs, or just ones with possible negative side effects. This might have been written broader than they intended it to be.

    2. Lena Clare*

      Hmmm my thoughts are hell no from a personal point of view, but also is there heavy machinery involved? They might want to know if there are any contraindications that would affect their health and safety policy… So it’s possibly legal. But I don’t know. I’d be interested in hearing the answer too. I wouldn’t like this policy.

      1. Natalie*

        Although from that article is sounds like, even in a safety situation, they can’t require a blanket disclosure?

        the nature of the medication required to be reported must be one that affects the employee’s ability to perform their essential functions, resulting in a direct threat to safety

        1. Busy*

          Yeah, I think they are trying to say this, but their wording is too vague. Like when they were writing it, they were thinking about opioids or other drugs known to make you drowsy and didn’t think to specify.

          Operating heavy machinery while impaired is a big deal.

          1. Anonariffic*

            Agreed. I definitely understand the boss wanting to be notified before someone like a forklift operator takes an Ambien or Oxycodone, but a blanket rule that requires me to have written permission to carry my birth control with me is overreaching.

            1. Justme, The OG*

              Agree. Especially since mine is on (in?) me at all times and the dosage is constant.

    4. MechanicalPencil*

      On the one hand, pretty much all of the medications I’m on have some warning about “do not operate heavy machinery”, so for a heavy industrial company, I can see wanting to know this information. However, everyone reacts differently to medication. I can take 4 ibuprofen and be perfectly fine. My aunt takes 2 and is loopy as can be.

      Regardless. You don’t need to know what I’m taking. You can reverse engineer the reasons why, and that’s an invasion of privacy. Then it could turn into a “well we don’t need MP anymore because she might cost us too much on the insurance”.

    5. Rusty Shackelford*

      Are they trying to say that if you need to take your medication while *at work* you’ll need permission? That’s what “permission to possess while working on the jobs” sounds like, to me.

      1. That Girl From Quinn's House*

        I worked at a day camp that officially had that rule for adults. If you needed to take medication during the work day, you had to have a doctor’s note and keep your medication in the nurse’s office, and you would need to go to the nurse and have her dispense it to you. Just like the campers. Even if you were 18+.

        No one followed it that I know of, but that was the official rule.

      2. Amethystmoon*

        To me, that’s pretty much unenforceable unless they’re going to stick cameras everywhere and hire enough security people to watch employees constantly. Besides, many medications must be taken with food, so what’s to stop someone from going out for lunch and taking it at lunch? Or just going to the bathroom and taking it there with no one watching?

        1. The Man, Becky Lynch*

          It’s about their random UA’s.

          It doesn’t mean they need to catch you popping a pill. If you’re hurt on the job or there’s a random drug screen that day, if it’s not listed on your prescribed medication list and hasn’t been disclosed, it’s too bad-so long to your job when you come back dirty, even if it’s a legal prescription.

    6. Zip Silver*

      Depends on the class of drugs. Being impaired, even on prescription drugs, can not be a great thing working with heavy machinery.

    7. Ali G*

      The language is kind of confusing – it seems like it could be interpreted that you only need to tell the employer about it if you are in possession of the drugs while at work?
      So if I take my meds normally before bed and only then, I would say they don’t need to know. But if I take something during the work day, maybe I do?

      1. Flat Penny*

        It might mean that you have to tell your employer if you have a prescription, even if you’re not a regular user…? Like I have a prescription for Xanax that I only take in somewhat extreme circumstances, and they would still want to know.

      2. Lucy*

        The wording is odd, using “possess” rather than talking about being under the influence of.

        So does it count if it’s in your locker? How about your car?

        I can see why the nature of the work implies a responsibility, but the wording is stupidly unclear.

    8. CupcakeCounter*

      Standard workplace – hard no
      heavy industrial construction company – I can see this as being important since the risk for injury is higher (drug interactions) as well as the potential side effects being concerning

      1. JJ Bittenbinder*

        I believe there are also financial/insurance implications for the company if they cannot demonstrate that they have such a policy in place. If someone gets into an accident on the job, the company needs to be able to demonstrate that they took reasonable steps to ensure that they were informed of all potential medication issues.

        1. The Man, Becky Lynch*

          It’s more likely about staying compliant to the Drug Free Workplace requirement for government contracts.

          Workers comp in some jurisdictions may ask about it but I have never seen them do it. Nor does other major assorted insurance companies but perhaps cut-rate places would go down that road.

    9. Narvo Flieboppen*

      My gut reaction is “Hell no!”, BUT the OP’s description of “heavy industrial construction” is where I would say, maybe this is a badly written policy that has the safety of everyone involved because of heavy equipment.

      Were I in an admin position, and the heaviest piece of equipment I use is my chair, I would totally push back on this as an employee. If I was operating a heavy crane, this policy makes more sense, even if potentially poorly written.

    10. Liz*

      While I can see why they may have some concerns, as certain medications specifically state do not take while operating heavy machinery, to issue a blanket policy like that is a bit overboard. I use inhalers for my allergic asthma, and take another med for that as well. BOTH are prescription but neither of them has any affect on my mental “sharpness” etc. And while I don’t care since they aren’t anything to be ashamed about, it’s no one’s business but my own that i take them.

      1. BlueDays*

        Yeah. I’m not ashamed that I take birth control and use a topical prescription for acne, but it doesn’t affect me negatively at work at all (actually makes me feel better about my appearance and keeps my cramps tolerable), so I wouldn’t willingly tell my employer about them.

    11. Dankar*

      I have a family member who’s worked in industrial construction/inspection and this sounds like the policies he’s had to abide by. He also needed to disclose any medication he was taking off-the-clock, as he was sometimes pulled in for unexpected late-night work.

      Admittedly, I only have his stories to go off of, rather than having seen the policies, but this seems fairly typical to me.

    12. The Man, Becky Lynch*

      That’s industrial construction for you.

      It’s been in every policy I’ve ever seen, so I’m shocked it’s just now being added.

      This is due to the high amount of prescription drugs being abused and sold outside of the pharmacy setting.

      1. The Man, Becky Lynch*

        Note: You only have to disclose prescriptions that may come up on a drug screen. It’s vague and I think everyone is reading it as disclosing your blood pressure medication or diabetes medication, etc. No. It’s only something you can be popped for, so that includes ADHD and pain medication more than anything.

        Otherwise unless it’s got an adverse side effect that may make someone think you’re high at work, it’s not much to worry about abiding by to the fullest extent of the rule.

    13. Not Me*

      They are most likely only covering themselves in the event there is an accident and someone is medicated. I highly doubt they honestly expect people to tell the boss what medications they are on. In the event of an accident they can say “We have a policy clearly stating we need to know about medication, they didn’t tell us, the side effects could’ve caused the accident, we aren’t responsible”

    14. Sushi*

      You need to contact an attorney in your area, your company may be able to hold you liable if anything was to go wrong. Construction heavy machine operators have different standards around these safety issues, I am not an expert on this so I can’t speak to exact standards nor do I know which state you live in or what you operate. My father retired from construction several years ago and this is immediate fireable offense and depending on if something has been of issue they do litigate over this. You likely signed that you would disclose this information when you started the job. I work in Health Insurance Sales and while we would not provide names (HIPPA protection) we do provide counts on subscribers by prescription to Employer groups when asked so they likely already know what prescriptions are out there (this is standard across all insurers).

      2. MatKnifeNinja*

        People have said more or less ignore it, which is fine until an accident happens.

        My father had heavy machinery jobs all his life, and drove truck at the end. What you don’t want, is losing a hand in a press accident, or on a table saw (insert nasty thing here), and get denied workmen’s compensation because of a non disclosure. Bonus round fired because your low dose of Adderall and the Xanax script you use one pill every 5 months was not declared on a medication list.

        My father’s buddy lost 3/4 of a hand in a press a accident. This was in the 1990s. The friend was on Percocets for back pain (?). It was a freak accident. He didn’t get workmen’s comp. He lost his job because eventually it was found out he was on pain medication he didn’t declare. The guy wasn’t abusing it. A doctor prescribed it. Did.not.matter. This was before companies were pee test happy on drugs.

        Medication disclosure for heavy machinery jobs is common where I live. Is it fair that Biff the office copy drone can take a Benadryl without a the 3rd degree, while you have declared your Proscar, birth control pills or ED medication? Life isn’t fair. Companies here will tell you you are free to look elsewhere for a job.

        The only places I know that let thing really slide are small shops that pay $15/hr. No disclosure. No drug tests. But you make garbage money.

    15. MatKnifeNinja*

      My father drove long haul trucks, and he had to list every medication he was on from the occasional Benadryl to his prostrate medication.

      If he had an accident (even a very minor fender bender), the DOT was on him like vultures on carrion. The would pull his medication paperwork.

      My welder relative is out of a job right now. He has a medical marijuana card. Tested positive (well duh), and was fired. The work place has a zero tolerance for booze, illegal narcotics and weed. It’s still against the Federal law to use marijuana.

      My guess is it’s legal under health and safety regulations, and maybe part of an insurance coverage prerequisite. The person who drives the forklift at my sister’s workplace has a similar requirement of disclosing all medications used.

      1. Alexandra Lynch*

        My ex-husband was a trucker. He was sitting at a stoplight, and someone ran into the back of his trailer. The police came and took him straight to get a urine test for drugs. Because he was in the accident, even though he was no more at fault than the lamppost he was sitting next to, and that’s the way it works.

        We spent years and years not visiting certain friends. We couldn’t afford any contact highs showing up in his urine. They understood, and we hung out together in public or at our house. It’s just part of the job.

    16. Not One of the Bronte Sisters*

      I have several concerns. The first is that such a blanket policy is a violation of employees’ privacy. Secondly, if safety is the concern, not all prescription medications would compromise people’s ability to safely operate heavy machinery. Thirdly, not every employee at an industrial construction company operates heavy machinery! WAY overbroad and likely illegal, as least as presently worded.

  5. Discouraged*

    I’m struggling with my boss and was hoping to get some advice. Sorry this is long!

    My boss is incredibly smart and experienced, I’ve been at this job for about a year with 5 years prior experience in the industry. My work is creative and pretty independent, akin to large-scale solo design projects, without a client.

    My problem is that my boss is very dismissive and harsh. When I’m pitching him ideas, he tends to say things like, ‘that doesn’t work. I don’t like that. that’s boring. Come on, that just puts me to sleep.” I know what he doesn’t like, but he’s not being clear about what he wants. The nature of my work is subjective enough that it isn’t like there’s clear criteria for what is ideal, so I can’t ask him for specific advice for how to improve on X or Y process. I feel like I’m putting paintings in front of him and he’s rejecting all of them as terrible, but not giving me any guidance on how to move towards a painting he will like.

    I have found that sometimes when I push back a little and explain why I think something is a good idea, he will concede that I have a point, but I don’t have enough confidence in my own ideas to do that often/don’t know how often I should do that. Overall, our conversations always leave me feeling discouraged, worried that he thinks I’m really stupid, and anxious about what I’m supposed to do next.

    It’s hard for me to tell if (1) he’s like this with everyone, not just me, and there’s nothing I can do to change the way he is, so I should stay quiet and try to do my best (2) He does think I’m inadequate but there’s no point in talking to him about it, I should just do the best work I can and try to earn his trust over time. (3) He doesn’t think I’m dumb and doesn’t mean to be this dismissive, and I could say something (but what?) which would help me get more useful direction from him. I worry if I do say something, he’ll view it as complaining or that I’m not tough enough.

    I have talked to a few of his other direct reports. One feels exactly like I do, he’s also very new. The others are much more senior to me and are far more confident that they know what’s good work, so they just argue back at him, but they are way more experienced than I am, so I’m not sure I have standing to do as they do.

    1. gecko*

      Without knowing your boss, I couldn’t say what it is, but it’s jerky behavior.

      Luckily I think you have evidence that pushing back and arguing for your ideas would be a functional approach. Your more senior coworkers do it, and the times that you’ve done it, it’s worked out well. It’s hard to speak up for yourself when you’re already feeling discouraged, but it sounds like that’s what your boss is used to, so it may be worth trying to do that more.

      Again, though, it’s jerky behavior on your boss’s part. A big-picture conversation might help but I think speaking up for yourself more could do a lot.

      1. Discouraged*

        That’s a good question. I think they do eventually turn him around. It may be a bit of a compromise in some cases.
        Honestly, if it was a case of A or B and I wanted A and he wanted B, I would just do B… but my problem is that he’s saying A, B, C, D that I’m presenting are all bad, and not telling me what he wants, so I don’t know how to move forward, I feel like I’m trying to guess at what he wants in hopes of hitting the jackpot. (and/or he says well E would be great but it’s so idealized that I’m not sure I can deliver on it — as an analogy, it’s like him saying “well if we could borrow the crown jewels that’d be great” and yeah, it would be, but it’s unlikely I’ll get them.)

        1. Busy*

          Yeah. It sounds like he wants you to argue. Like it is some misguided way to get you to show your passion for it. My old boss was like this. Its annoying and draining.

        2. Fenchurch*

          It sounds like he’s giving bad feedback. Ideally, critical feedback is accompanied with concrete examples or suggestions for improvement. Perhaps you can push for him to give you more detailed ways that you could improve your work/make it closer to what he’s looking for?

        3. merpderp*

          I’m wondering if it would be helpful for you to respond to your boss’s “A, B, C, D are all bad and I don’t like them” declarations with more questions about what specifically he doesn’t like about them. Ditto with his “perfect world” E suggestions – what specifically is appealing about the crown jewels that he likes? And then use that info to guide your next iteration?
          One of my previous bosses had a very different way of communicating new ideas for programs: I prefer to have a rough sketch of the big picture, then I want to hear about the details. My boss was the opposite, she would have very clear ideas on certain details, then would build the big picture later. Initially I would just get super confused and frustrated when talking about ideas/designs but after figuring out what the problem was I found that having scrap paper on hand to sketch out ideas in real time was pretty helpful.
          If your boss is a “visuals” guy, I wonder if it would be helpful to put together a portfolio of work; both yours and the company’s ‘branded’ stuff. Then, if your boss says stuff like “I don’t like the color of B, it needs to pop more; just make the colors sound more like buses smell” or whatever random suggestion he has, pull out your design portfolio and point to specifics. Then use those specifics as new parameters.

      2. Auntie Social*

        No, Reince Priebus and John Kelly had problems with him, too. We are talking about #45, aren’t we??

    3. Bananatiel*

      I’m a designer and if your specific field is anything like mine– this is really terrible “mentoring” on your boss’s part and I’d keep that in the back of your mind as you navigate this.

      That having been said, it sounds like he enjoys debate/arguing. I had a boss that was a bit like this and I found that the only way to get anything approved by her was to ruthlessly defend my work. The extent to which I had to defend it was always uncomfortable to me but I got pretty good at saying blunt things like “Unless you have an objective issue with this concept I believe it’s the best option based on x, y, and z and I’ll be proceeding with it.” It felt aggressive, was aggressive, but alas, it was the only way I was able to get work done because her feedback was similarly useless.

      I’m in a new job now and my new boss is an incredible mentor– she provides feedback and explains why so that I actually learn things. But she’s also open-minded and supportive when I have strong justifications for certain design choices in my work. She’s never uttered the words “I don’t like it” or “That doesn’t work” and I’ve certainly never had to say “I’m doing this unless you give me a reason why not”!

      1. Bananatiel*

        Oh, another tip based on my experience in that workplace: I solicited feedback from peers and other people at the same level as my boss. And actually even from people outside my company when I could. That gave me the confidence to say that the concept I thought was strongest was actually the strongest. I was essentially seeking mentorship from anyone I could find that would assist.

        1. Discouraged*

          Oh, I really like this idea of getting other mentorship to build confidence. Thank you.

          I don’t think my boss wants to or thinks about mentoring at all. I think he just wants me to give him good work. (and I want to give him good work too!) Aggressiveness is very much not my personality but I think you may be right and I may need to step it up a bit.

      2. matcha123*

        Oh, god. I have a coworker that checks my work and she’s like this. I don’t like arguing with people. I was raised not to talk back to people in authority and I personally believe that if someone wants my opinion, they’ll ask for it.
        I deal with this with some friends, too. It is just so draining.
        At the office, I debate with myself over whether or not I want to go head-to-head over minor BS, and I really don’t. I just don’t.

      3. Quinalla*

        Yeah, I agree your boss might be one that just wants to challenge everything and have you convince him otherwise – whether he is doing it on purpose as sort of an exercise or it is just his style. And that can work, but he sounds like he’s not giving you any specific feedback you can work with which is not good.

        I too would see if you can run it by someone else before taking it to him for some real feedback and then take it to him and explain why you did it that way. Try to reframe it not as him criticizing, but that he is asking for you to sell him on your concept.

    4. CM*

      Right now, he’s controlling the conversation by having you present him with stuff that he judges. My advice would be to take control of the conversation back by asking him questions about his judgements. So, if he says it’s boring, ask what would be more exciting to him. If he says he doesn’t like something, ask what he doesn’t like about it, and then ask him why he doesn’t like that.

      Even gentle people sometimes have trouble explaining what they think about subjective work, so asking these kinds of questions is a totally professional thing to do (and what designers do all the time). Basically, he is not doing a good job of articulating why he doesn’t like what you did, so you need to steer him there through asking probing questions about it.

      In this case, he doesn’t sound like a super gentle person, so the conversation will probably be rockier, but the solution is still the same. Just remember, you’re not trying to trick him into revealing that he’s stupid; you’re trying to help him articulate what a successful outcome would look like. If he gets mad or accuses you of trying to make him look stupid (which un-gentle people do sometimes when you ask them questions and they don’t know the answer right away) just remind him that you need to understand his thought process so you can deliver something he likes.

      1. Discouraged*

        Thanks, this is helpful. I need to think about how to phrase the questions so he doesn’t just default back to “well it’s not good” — he also tends to cut me off a lot mid sentence so it feels hard to question him, but I will try to keep in mind “help him articulate what a successful outcome would look like”!

      2. LunaLena*

        Yeah, I was thinking the same thing. It just doesn’t occur to some people that other people aren’t mind readers and need more feedback than “I don’t like this, it’s boring.”

        I would honestly be prepared to sit down with him and go over everything and ask lots of questions every time you bring him work for approval. I work in graphic design, so if someone told me “this is boring,” I would respond with “Okay, I can fix that. What makes you feel that way? Is it the color scheme? The layout? The photos? Is there anything you LIKE about this that I should keep? Or would you prefer I try something completely different? Okay, you want something different? What kind of vibe are you looking for?” All this obviously does take a lot of time and energy and discussion, but it will make your work less frustrating in the long run.

        If you ARE in a design field (as others have conjectured), another thing that I’ve found works well is to Google examples of similar work and email them over with “are any of these the kind of thing you’re looking for?” or “I was thinking of something like this, except this instead of that, and X not Y. What do you think?” You obviously don’t want to copy another design exactly, but it will give you a general idea of what he wants without you having to do an entire project, only to have it rejected.

        It’s also completely not pushy to explain your own reasoning, especially if he is open to changing his opinion after hearing it (even if it may be grudgingly so)! I do this all the time with clients. Client will say “I don’t like this” and I’ll respond with “We can do A instead of B, but I think it would lessen the impact because [reasons]. Would you still like me to go ahead with those changes?” If they say yes, then, well… it’s their design. I don’t have to like it, they do. But if it involves major changes, I always keep a copy of what I originally made, since, after seeing the changes, clients quite often change their mind and ask to go back to the original.

        It also sounds to me like your boss may be the kind of person who likes people who stand up to him and defend their ideas. I would pay attention to his reactions when you push back to see if this may be the case.

        Hope this helps!

    5. AnonAcademic*

      My supervisor is like this. Here’s a few tips: if he gives you vague non-direction, try to boil down the options going forward into a binary choice, like “I’m hearing that you don’t like the shade of yellow I used because it’s ‘not yellow enough.’ Our options are to go with one of the three default yellows offered, or I could create a custom yellow, which I expect to take 1-2 weeks. What works best for you?” Since his conversational style is aggressive, you may need to mirror it a bit even if it feels uncomfortable. If he says “I don’t like it” and can’t/won’t tell you why, you can redirect by saying “How do you want me to proceed on that?” and if that still doesn’t get you useful guidance you can try punting it: “How about I come up with some other options and we can go over those in our call tomorrow.” I also second the suggestion to get outside expert opinions; sometimes a “Well Bob and Lucinda have worked in color development for 1o years and they said this yellow is the most popular” can redirect the focus from your work to the industry standards.

      Consider also that having to do this much emotional labor is a high cost of doing business and unless the job has other wonderful qualities you love, you might want to think about job searching because poor mentors like this lack the self awareness to improve on their own and it’s not your job to fix them.

      1. Easily Amused*

        It sounds like Boss is not a designer who supervises but rather a company wide boss who doesn’t know how design works. In other words, you have a client and your client doesn’t know what they want until they see it. A really important skill to develop is asking the right questions to get to what the client really wants (because they do sort of know. They just don’t know how to convey it). Others above have made really good suggestions – I just wanted to point out what (I think) is really going on here as it will be a useful skill throughout your career to get as much info from a client (internal or external) as you can before starting any project and throughout iterations. Though hopefully you won’t have to do it THIS much in other roles.

  6. Dry Spell in Spring*

    My position is that of an administrative/office support for my team. I have a wide variety of jobs that normally keep me very busy around the clock. The last few months however, I’ve had weeks of having little to nothing to do. I’ll have three weeks in row of lots to work on, then a week of nothing; two more busy weeks, then more quiet days.

    I’m not sure what to do with this downtime. If it was just a random afternoon every couple of weeks, I could do things I normally put off like catch up on meeting notes or update filing, that kind of stuff. But I still get those things done in a few hours and then have a few days of quiet until the next busy section. It’s not a matter of asking for more because my team knows to bring me their requests; they don’t worry about interrupting me, they just send me their requests and I jump on it or let them know there will be a delay. In my quiet weeks, the requests come in but spread out, giving me an hour of work at most and then nothing. My tasks all come from my team, that’s the nature of my job, so there not much that I can be a self-starter about and do on my own.

    I’m at the end of one of those weeks now and don’t know what to do. What should I be doing with this downtime, how should I handle these sudden dry spells? Do I need to scrounge desperately for something work related to do or can do personal stuff at my computer while still being ready and on hand for when a task does come up?

    2. Ms. Taylor Sailor*

      I’m in an admin position as well! My current one is much busier, but at my old one, it’d get *super* dead. If there’s nothing else you can help out someone else with (and don’t hesitate to ask around if any you support needs something), I’d recommend reading Kindle books or, if it’s not too disruptive, watch tutorials for skills or programs you could use in your job. I’ve had to do design work before, so I’ve watched plenty of InDesign tutorials.

    3. Flat Penny*

      I sometimes do surveys or data entry on Amazon Mechanical Turk, or pull up ebooks. You can find pretty much anything in the public domain on Project Gutenberg.

      1. Eleanor Shellstrop*

        Curious about this. I’ve thought about doing mechanical turk in my downtime at work, but worry that it would be considered time theft because you’re earning money elsewhere while at work – what do you think?

        1. Rosaline Montague*

          I agree with your concerns and wouldn’t go this direction. Whatever you do should be work related, or at least work adjacent, while you’re on the clock.

    4. The Tin Man*

      Step 1 is to ask your manager. There could be value is asking directly but openly”What do you want me to do with my downtime?” or you can think through the following:

      I know you said all your work comes from your team but is there anything supplemental you can take on with your time? I don’t know the full extent of your role but I usually have a running list of processes, spreadsheets etc that can be improved on that aren’t urgent but would be nice to have.

      In my list right now I have things like cleaning up a report I am responsible for, writing a macro to automate another report, archiving some 2018 reports in our shared drive, and writing instruction guides to some of the tasks that I do.

      Approaching your manager could look like “Hey boss, as you know sometimes there are quieter spells where there isn’t as much work coming to me from the team. I was thinking of taking archiving the 2018 TPS reports because sometimes we have a need to quickly reference those. I also want to make an easy-to-use guide of how I compile the XYZ reports as a ‘Dry Spell moves to a new position/gets hit by a bus/wins the lottery’ contingency. What do you think?”

      I think I would ask the open-ended question first but then have a couple ideas in my back pocket in case boss didn’t have any ideas.

    5. Taylor*

      Could you use your downtime to teach yourself some new skills? Maybe your office would pay for a Lynda.com subscription where you could take some Excel or Adobe Creative Suite courses, or classes in whatever may be related to your job.

    6. The Man, Becky Lynch*

      I wouldn’t decide on how to deal with these dry spells on your own, you risk a lot if you don’t bring it up to your supervisor first. They may have tasks they don’t have normally regulated to you but that you could help with if you are out of the regular things. Perhaps the supply closet hasn’t been sorted in thirty-six years or there’s a scanning project nobody has ever had downtime to do that’s just rotting somewhere. Been there, done that.

      So be open with them and let them know. Some may caution you about letting them know because then they’ll think about cutting your hours, that’s really unlikely in most situations because most bosses know you’re not working at full capacity at all times because it’s meant to be that way so you don’t get too much on your plate.

      You need to know the policy about doing personal stuff on the computer and if it’s monitored. If they don’t know you have dry spells, they may assume you’re slacking off instead of just killing time until a request comes in. It depends drastically on the office culture and management’s expectations.

    7. ManageHer*

      Oooh from a former admin (and manager of admins), this kind of downtime can be so de-motivating, especially as an admin where your main job function is supporting others. I echo others’ recommendation for asking your boss how she’d like you to handle this downtime.

      That said, I didn’t see you mention working on documentation or SOPs, and it sounds like a huge missed opportunity. Try using your downtime to:

      ** Write/Update Documentation: Chances are you work on at least one processes that no one else on your team knows how to do (even if it’s mail merge). Write step-by-step guidance. This is hugely beneficial in a hit-by-a-bus scenario, and when you give notice it’ll be one less thing to stress about. If you support executive calendars or specific leadership meetings, there should be guides for each.
      **Create onboarding resources for yourself/your team: If your team, department, or role has regular turnover, think about what basic skills new hires need to know that are unlikely to be covered in orientation (i.e. what’s the copier code; where are office supplies; what kinds of tasks should they send to you; this is an office where everyone sends responses for calendar invites). As the team admin, you likely know the kinds of questions new hires tend to ask.
      **Create resources that are broadly valuable for your team: Organize your team’s shared drive or sharepoint site; create a hub point for shared documents; create a PTO management calendar, or regularly recurring calendar holds for those rotating tasks everyone forgets; write a cheat sheet for how to use the buggy projector in conference room A.
      **Look for areas where you can improve your own processes or data tracking, and put together recommendations for your boss.

      All of the above can result in resume-worthy deliverables, and process documentation is a key skill in many roles, so you’ll be positioning yourself well for more responsibility in your current role, promotion, or new roles down the line.

      1. Seeking Second Childhood*

        Another thought — project wrapup notes, especially if your group tried or reacted to anything new. Was there anything that went particularly well during the recently ended busy season? Feedback from customers to gather?

    8. Valentine*

      I work as an admin and have also experienced the occasional slow period. I work 100% remotely and enjoy a lot of flexibility, although this position can be very intense with long hours when we’re sold out (which is almost all the time these days).

      Last summer some of the team went parttime until school started, and requests really dropped off, so I asked my boss if on the off-chance I had a free moment, were there any projects she’d like me to pursue? I had some ideas for myself too, like some skill-building courses, because I didn’t want to be stuck with only menial or thankless tasks. I ended up doing a mix of data entry and database training, in addition to getting the rare haircut and catching up on the news! I also took some PTO, knowing that catching up wouldn’t be as difficult since it wasn’t as busy.

      There is the slight danger that someone will think you really don’t have enough to do and that might lead to you being given way too much work, so you’ll have to figure out how to present your downtime to your superiors.

  7. Would-be manager*

    Managers and people who have hired managers: could you please share examples of STAR/“tell me about a time when…” questions you’ve asked or been asked?

    I am prepping for my first time ever being interviewed for a management role. It’s an internal vacancy / promotion so perhaps less of a stretch than if I was applying somewhere I didn’t have a track record of working with others, forming cross-department relationships etc (which I do).

    I’m trying to think through possible types of scenarios I might prepare to talk about, and it would be great to hear real examples that people actually use to help me get thinking about the types of examples I might want to have ready.

    I would also hugely appreciate any general tips on management interviews! Thank you!

    1. AnonEMoose*

      Not a manager in my paid job, but I might consider asking “Tell me about a time when you had to share critical feedback with an employee.” And/or (if relevant) “Tell me about a time when you had to uphold policy with an angry/upset customer or client.”

      1. Ali G*

        In a similar vein, a good one to be prepared for is “how would you handle rolling out a change in policy to your staff you don’t agree with?”

    2. Canonical23*

      Couple one’s I’ve gotten:

      “Tell me about a time you had to improve an employee’s performance. How did you go about that?”

      “Tell me about a time you’ve had to have a difficult conversation with an employee about [dress code/body odor/etc.]”

      “Tell me about a time where you had to make a big change. How did you manage buy-in?”

      1. Would-be manager*

        Thanks for these.

        What on earth do you do if you haven’t had those experiences yet?

        1. AnonEMoose*

          If you haven’t had that experience as a manager, have you had it as an employee and felt that it was handled particularly well? Maybe you could go with something like “I haven’t had that experience as a manager; however, a previous manager I really respect handled it by doing X, Y, and Z, and I learned [specific things] from that.”

        2. Canonical23*

          You split the answer into three parts – acknowledging that you don’t have that experience, telling them how you would hypothetically respond and giving an example of a similar but smaller situation. For example:

          “I’ve actually never had to have a huge change that required managing buy-in, however, if I was faced with such an occurrence, I think I’d handle it by having a meeting about the change and following up individually with staff members to hear any concerns or give any extra training. I’d also notice which employees were positively responding to the future change and bring them in to help implement it. While I don’t have that experience, I did have to do something similar on a smaller scale – I had to make a very drastic schedule change in my department and handled it by meeting with employees to discuss the change…etc. etc.”

    3. Smooth Operator*

      I was a recruiter for a large firm who used behavioral-based interviewing in a past life, and my best advice is to print out the job description and glean key words that will give you hints regarding what they’re looking for in a top candidate. (e.g. critical thinking, team management, administrative skills)

      Then, identify 8-10 stories you are proud of (including at least one when you failed and learned from your mistake). Practice telling those stories, including specific details of how your action impacted results, and then don’t over think it. Practice practice practice your talk track until you feel totally comfortable.

      If I am really prepping hard for an interview, I would then match the stories with the competencies they are looking for, but I tend to do too much. You’ve got this. If you can take a sheet of paper into your interview with one-word reminders bulletted out (in 1 – 2 words only), that’s a great way to make sure you don’t *forget* to use your best example.

      Another tip – don’t wait for the perfect question to use your best story. You want to make sure to have the chance to tell it, and you don’t want to “run out” of questions!

      Last tip – use the words STAR stands for in your examples to stay on track. “I’m going to tell you about a situation when….the task I had at hand was…..so the action I took……the result was…..”

      Good luck!

    4. irene adler*

      If I were interviewing someone for a manager position, I would want to learn how the candidate plans to support their reports. I might ask how they would support during specific circumstances (new hire, under par performance(when to pull the plug), major mistake made, keeping a superstar engaged, the chronic whiner).

    5. Kathenus*

      Here are a few from recent interviews I’ve done for manager positions (ignore the numbers, just cut and pasted these from several documents):

      5. How would you deal with an employee who routinely disagrees with your decisions?
      7. What are the manager’s responsibilities regarding implementing management decisions that may be unpopular with staff and with which you may not personally agree?
      8. What feedback have you received from others about your communication style? What do you feel are your strengths in this area, and what areas could use improvement?
      11. What is the most useful work-related criticism you’ve ever received, and why?
      13. No one’s perfect. If you could wave a magic wand over your head and change something about your work skills or persona, what would it be? (wait for an answer). How would your supervisor and coworkers answer this question?
      14. In your experience, what is the key to developing and maintaining a good team?
      6. What do you like most about your current facility and position, and what aspects would you change if you could?
      7. When did you last receive feedback at work that made you feel proud? How about criticism that bothered you?
      8. How would you describe your management style, and how has your approach to management evolved over time?
      10. Tell us about an employee who became more successful as a result of your management.
      14. Talk about the balance between not micromanaging but still being involved enough to know what’s going on and catching problems early on if needed.

    6. Not Today Satan*

      I try to have a good number (5-10) anecdotes, that if necessary, could be massaged to fit whatever the question is. Just look up the most common questions (difficult relationship with a colleague, admit you were wrong, went above and beyond, or whatever) and use those to brainstorm. When I interview, I put a keyword for each story in the notebook that I bring with me. If they ask a question that I blank on, I run through my list of stories and pick whichever one is closest.

      1. Would-be manager*

        Thanks for this, of course I’m aware that I can look up common scenarios but I find a lot of online advice about interview questions to be hopelessly out of date which is why I asked to get examples people had asked or answered themselves.

      2. Would-be manager*

        These also aren’t sufficient for prep for a management interview, just for anyone else who’s reading.

    7. RandomU...*

      One I’ve asked before for a management role “Can you tell me about a time that you had a difficult situation with your employee? Can you describe the situation and how you approached it”

      If the person is new to management I’ll tweak it for relevancy. “Can you describe a time/situation where you’ve used your indirect leadership skills to achieve a work goal” follow ups include “What were some of the challenges” “looking back what would you do differently” “What were some of the things that worked”

    8. ManageHer*

      I recently interviewed candidates for a level 1 manager role.

      We asked a lot of hypotheticals, since none of our applicants had direct management experience: what skills would you look for when interviewing for X position; how would you handle someone on the team who was experiencing burnout; if you got a complaint about one of your team members, how would you address it?

      Not a specific scenario, but one thing I’ve noticed is that first-time managers often ascribe all performance issues to a lack of training or motivation. That’s a great first step. But one thing to think about as you prep for your interview is how you would handle performance issues that couldn’t be resolved by providing training or context. The really outstanding applicants I’ve interviewed for these roles proactively mention that.

    9. NW Mossy*

      I tend to ask a range of questions that poke at the candidate’s comfort level with uncomfortable conversations. How do they handle it when a colleague does poor quality work or has a behavior that drives them crazy? How well can they advocate for a position when the majority seems against it? How do they approach escalating something to a higher-up?

      In the answers, I look for key factors like addressing the issue in a timely fashion, being direct in describing the issue, being considerate towards the other person, and using the interaction to drive positive change and a stronger relationship going forward.

      Basically, I want to know that the candidate both recognizes the need to have tough conversations and the skills to actually pull it off. Many a manager has foundered on one or both of those rocks, but they’re skills that can absolutely be developed and practiced at the individual contributor level. I’d rather have a new leader that really got this concept in their bones than a 20-year veteran that didn’t.

    10. MintLavendar*

      I always ask prospective managers to tell me about their management philosophy. I think that can catch people off guard, because a lot of people don’t really think holistically like that, but everyone should be able to articulate, generally, what they feel their job is as a manager, what it’s goals are in the broadest sense, and how they approach it.

    11. Akcipitrokulo*

      Some general feedback I’ve heard – a lot of people fall into the trap of giving a great build up/detail about the situation or task, when it should actually be the shortest part of the answer. It should take a sentence or maybe two to explain what the issue was – if it takes longer than that, it may be including details that really, really don’t matter, and the answer can get bogged down with that.

      What you did, and, hopefully, an impressive result are where you want to spend the time!

    3. Nanc*

      I read breathing time as bathing time–which if you use the definition of bathing = swimming, that’s not a bad thing!
      Have a relaxing week and good luck with the new position.

  9. CuriousNewbie*

    I am curious to see what others think of this. I am not this person’s manager, but I am a new manager in a related department of the same company.

    The department in question has three employees whose jobs have no overlap; no one is trained in anyone else’s job. Sansa, who among other things manages registration for an important event happening annually, requested a significant amount of time off for a vacation during the pre-registration period. This is not awesome, either for the company or for the people trying to register (spots are limited and competitive, and this is a big event) – but the manager wants to be flexible and respect employee’s personal needs for time off. So they worked out a way to handle it in the short term and approved the vacation time.

    Then, with the vacation less than a month away, Sansa let her manager know she had scheduled a medical procedure for immediately after returning. She expects to take off the maximum amount of time to recover (4 weeks). That means that those trying to register will be left with no idea of whether they have successfully registered for the event until mid-summer. This is resulting in very frustrated clients who have no answers, no way to get answers, and no ability to budget the time or money they would need for this event without knowing if they even got into it or not.

    Obviously, management wants to respect both medical leave and vacation time, and management wants to be flexible. The debate is: should the manager have rescinded the vacation approval, since the company could finds ways to cover EITHER a two week vacation OR a four week medical leave, but not six weeks of both on such short notice (with more notice, it would have been possible). Management would not have approved the vacation, knowing the medical leave was coming but is it appropriate to un-approve vacation Sansa had already gotten approved?

    On the one hand, that feels like punishing someone for having a medical procedure, and that’s not okay by any stretch.

    On the other hand, this length of time creates serious problems for the company.

    What does everyone think?

    1. Would-be manager*

      I think it’s insane to have something nobody else is cross-trained on, and to be that reliant on one person.

      1. CuriousNewbie*

        I agree, but we all work under the conditions the company set up for us. Each position requires pretty complex/time consuming training, and each position is busy. Not overworked, but they don’t have the time to learn another job on top of their own core job. Managers are not given either the financial leeway to hire an additional employee or the work leeway to create time for the employees they have to learn another job.

        With more notice, we are all agreed that hiring a temp to fill in would have been what had happened. But the manager was not given enough notice to hire and train a temp.

        1. Would-be manager*

          You can hire a temp at a day’s notice so I’m having trouble understanding this.

          1. CuriousNewbie*

            We cannot train a temp in a day’s notice to do the position. It’s the training that’s the problem, not the hiring.

            1. Ask a Manager* Post author

              Yeah. People love to make the cross-training argument whenever something like this comes up, but sometimes it’s really not practical. Sometimes the job is complicated and nuanced and it would take more time than makes sense to train a back-up just to prepare for very rare situations that may never even occur. Or sometimes if you train someone on it now, they’re not going to remember enough about it when they’re actually needed to step in 8 months from now. And sometimes there genuinely aren’t enough resources to have that kind of overlaps and it’s still reasonable to move forward with the work (hello, nonprofits). When you can cross-train, you should. Realistically, it’s not always going to be the case.

              I’d be straight with Sansa: Tell her you wouldn’t have approved the vacation time if you’d known the medical leave would be right afterward (and that it was already a big ask because it was around this key project but you tried hard to accommodate her), tell her that’s not her fault because obviously she didn’t plan the medical leave this way, and ask if she has any flexibility on the vacation dates. If she does, great. If she’s doesn’t, then all you can do is enlist her in training someone (maybe a current employee, maybe a highly skilled temp, depending on the circumstances) to cover the work while she’s out. But pulling the vacation time without her agreement that that’s the best solution is a good way to kick start her job search.

              1. CuriousNewbie*

                Thank you for this Alison! Luckily it’s not my department, I’m just trying to learn by observing – but this is really helpful to think about what I would if it was my department.

                1. valentine*

                  I’m thinking Sansa’s taking the piss. If her medical leave were an emergency or difficult to schedule, I assume she would’ve said, and expressed regret at leaving everyone in the lurch. Knowing the demands of her position, she could’ve handled this literally any other way, unless the employer isn’t communicating about how much notice they need for leave requests. I find the passiveness weird and off-putting. They should just tell you they need x weeks notice per y amount of leave and that back-to-back BS won’t be accommodated unless it’s a medical emergency.

                  Also, if this is six weeks of fully paid leave: Y’all hirin’?

                2. AnonEMoose*

                  Out of nesting, but replying to Valentine.

                  I think this is a very ungenerous perspective toward Sansa. A medical issue can not be an emergency, but still need to be taken care of for many reasons. And depending on the treatment needed (if specialists are involved, for example), Sansa may not have a lot of choice in the scheduling.

                  No, the timing is not ideal. But as other posters have said, this is a situation the company created for themselves by not having any backup for Sansa. That’s neither Sansa’s fault nor, really, her problem.

                  I’ve been somewhat in Sansa’s shoes…for quite awhile, I had no backup. And had an annual volunteer commitment that is very important to me, but was timed poorly for some of my work. I asked for someone to be cross-trained on at least some things for several years, but before that happened, I came back to a huge mess every year. It was far from ideal, but I made it work.

                3. Falling Diphthong*

                  I could easily see someone told “And we really should do this surgery sometime in the next two months” (for medical reasons, for insurance reasons…) and Sansa saying “Okay, Gruber Project, Llama Hat Workshop, then my vacation… I guess right after the vacation?”

                  It’s non-ideal, but like many others I think the real problem is that there is no “If Sansa were hit by a bus tomorrow…” contingency plan in place.

              2. Elizabeth West*

                Or sometimes if you train someone on it now, they’re not going to remember enough about it when they’re actually needed to step in 8 months from now.

                This is what procedural documents are foooooorrrrrrrrrrr

                *writhes on the ground in agony because she has written them for her last three jobs for exactly this reason*

                1. Ask a Manager* Post author

                  Sure, if you can capture it in one! But sometimes it’s more about nuance/judgment. (It doesn’t sound like that’s necessarily the case here, but who knows.)

        2. Snark*

          “Not overworked, but they don’t have the time to learn another job on top of their own core job. ”

          Well, here’s the thing: someone is going to have to learn to do that job on top of their own job now, it’s just not planned.

          1. Works in IT*

            My overworked coworkers and me also do three incredibly different sets of tasks. But we are all cross trained enough so that if one of us has vacation, the other two can cover.

            Except for the time when one coworker got sick the day before her vacation and wasn’t able to pull the report I needed to start setting all our automated stuff for the month. “It didn’t get done because coworker is the only person the people who run that system trust and she was delirious and not interacting with the world” is definitely a unique reason for not getting something done.

      2. Not Me*

        Agreed. It’s not Sansa’s fault management isn’t good at their job. They should have people cross trained to handle things like this.

        What if Sansa quit tomorrow? The event just would never happen again? No one else would be able to register?

        1. Lucy*

          Or if Sansa broke half a dozen bones paragliding on holiday?

          This is absolutely on management though I agree Sansa’s timing is unfortunate.

          Would it make any difference if she could come in for one day between vacation and medical procedure just to send out the confirmation/ rejection emails, or prepare two lists so a temp or co-worker can do it?

          “Thank you for your application for tickets to / event / on / date/. I’m pleased to confirm you have been successful. Full details will be sent out after /return date/.”

          1. Not A Manager*

            I don’t think these comments are always applicable. If Sansa suddenly won the lottery and quit her job, then the company would devote the resources to training someone in the expectation that they’d be at the job for a while. Investing those same resources in a temp, or in someone who will only do the job sporadically, might not make financial sense.

            1. Lucy*

              That’s a fair comment – though I’m not sure how much difference it makes to customers in the upcoming booking period. They’ll only see the result, not the cause.

    2. ThatGirl*

      I think this reveals a serious need for cross-training, personally. I am the only person who does a lot of my job functions on a daily basis, but you better believe I have backups. I think Sansa should train someone else to handle this while she’s out, and I think the company should be better prepared for absences or sudden departures.

      1. MintLavendar*

        Yeah, I mean, I get resource constraints, but if the plan is “cross your fingers and hope this employee never has an emergency and never wants to take a long vacation” then that is a … bad plan

    3. S-Mart*

      This sounds like a problem the company created by not having anyone else who can handle Sansa’s duties. Nobody should be irreplaceable. You’d only get two weeks notice if Sansa was quitting entirely (assuming US norms). I think the company should figure out how to cover the full six weeks. That probably means having Sansa train somebody (coworker, manager, and/or temp) how to handle her upcoming duties before she leaves.

      I would assume the medical requirement came up for Sansa after the trip was a done decision. Sure it’s possible she planned them back to back with full knowledge of both, but without further information I wouldn’t jump to that.

      1. CuriousNewbie*

        This is definitely a problem the company has created – no one thinks any differently. However, the department’s manager (and myself, which is why I am curious about this) do not have the power to change the way the company handles staffing. We can only work in the situation we are in. So that’s why I am wondering: given the context of the situation, which managers have no real power to address, what is the best way to handle the situation? Keep the vacation approval, and upset the clients? Or rescind the approval, and upset the employee?

        1. Not Me*

          Those aren’t your only options though. You can still have Sansa train someone to do her job while she’s out. It might require overtime, but it’s possible.

          1. JJ Bittenbinder*

            Yeah, this is where I’d go. I understand that under normal circumstances, the company staffing situation is such that it doesn’t allow cross-training, but these are not normal circumstances. If this is truly a signature event for the company, they should be willing to be more flexible on their staffing in order to make it work.

        2. Falling Diphthong*

          This is why mid-level managers have such high stress levels.

          But: It’s not like the employees have the power to address the company’s poor planning practices, either.

          While I don’t recall how it came out, I know there was at least one letter along the lines “I have this once in a lifetime trip we’ve planned for years booked and paid for, and then work rescinded the time off because some projects had moved their deadlines around” and the advice was overwhelmingly “If you can afford to quit with nothing lined up, I would do it.” “Sansa pouts for a few days” is not the only possible reaction of Sansa to losing her vacation time after she’s booked and paid for a trip in her approved time off.

        3. Iron Chef Boyardee*

          “department’s manager (and myself, which is why I am curious about this) do not have the power to change the way the company handles staffing.”

          Is there any way to contact those who do have the authority to make changes, and let them know what’s happening?

      2. Bunny Girl*

        I have a co-worker that calls it the Mack-Truck Theory. If you were hit by a Mack Truck one day, your company would have to move on without you one way or another, so always be prepared. I’m not saying that everyone needs to be prepared to do every little thing someone does, but it would probably help to have some of the major things covered.

        Also, your assumption would be mine too. A lot of times when medical things are recommended, they can’t really wait. She might have had the trip planned before this came up. Either way, I think you should give her the time off she’s asked for.

        1. Amethystmoon*

          This is a great reason to document your job while you’re there. Updating documentation is also a useful thing to do on your down time. Type up your notes in Word or make a PowerPoint. Whatever, just have something ready in case you need to be gone for a while. You don’t have to share it with anyone until the time comes, but have it ready.

        2. That Girl From Quinn's House*

          It’s also likely since she planned the trip (and paid for it) well in advance, she is already delaying her medical procedure by a significant amount to avoid losing the money she paid for the trip (hotel, flights.)

    4. Parenthetically*

      Yeah, I think it’s an issue, but it’s one 100% created by the company by failing to crosstrain ANYONE for the job. What if Sansa got the job offer of her dreams tomorrow and quit without notice? What if she got hit by a bus and was in the hospital for months?

      Also, I don’t understand why it’s possible to cover a two week vacation or a four week medical leave but not both. I understand you’re saying training is an issue, but I’m genuinely not understanding how they can train someone to cover the vacation but that person can’t continue through the medical leave.

      1. CuriousNewbie*

        Unfortunately in the past, when someone leaves a position, there ends up being a long gap before someone is hired and the person hired goes through a steep learning curve because there are little to no training opportunities available. This is obviously not good – but comes as a result of company-wide policies around staffing and hiring that each department has a limited (or non-existent) ability to address.

        As a new manager, I guess am considering a semi-philosophical question: when company policy limits your ability to address problems, do you go with prioritizing the employee (who deserves the time) or the client (who is getting frustrated/upset).

        1. Pescadero*

          “when company policy limits your ability to address problems, do you go with prioritizing the employee (who deserves the time) or the client (who is getting frustrated/upset).”

          Neither. You get a new job.

          1. valentine*

            I don’t understand why it’s possible to cover a two week vacation or a four week medical leave but not both.
            People are willing and able to come through in a crunch, bit not two back-to-back non-crunches. You might sacrifice so a colleague can go on a honeymoon, but not a honeymoon and then medical leave and then bereavement leave because you can only stretch so far without failing in your own work.

        2. ThursdaysGeek*

          If the company doesn’t care about coverage and cross training… well, sometimes managers and employees shouldn’t try to care more. That’s not a solution, but it sounds like the company is fine with work gaps and disappointed clients.

          1. Falling Diphthong*

            This. If the company doesn’t care enough about happy employees and happy customers to have less wacky policies, it’s not really on the low-level employees to solve all the problems that arise from this lack of planning.

        3. JJ Bittenbinder*

          I feel like we’re not really answering your question, but I think that there is no one answer to it. Everything is case-dependent and a blanket approach isn’t going to work.

          I know we’ve preached the cross-training sermon to you in several places and you’ve stated that it’s not how your company operates, so I wanted to acknowledge your question and the difficulties thereof.

      2. Blue*

        It sounds to me that they weren’t going to train anyone for the vacation time – they were just going to let her tasks sit until she got back from vacation, which wasn’t ideal but fine for two weeks. Those tasks can’t be put off for six weeks – or, in my opinion, they absolutely shouldn’t be, if doing so will alienate a lot of clients. I think I would talk to Sansa to see if there was any flexibility on either of the dates, since I imagine having even a week in between where she’s in the office would help. Otherwise, someone (or someones) have to be trained to pick this up.

        Also, am I the only one baffled that she would ask off during a critical time for her role? I’ve been in a position like this, where I’m the only one who could do certain things, and I can’t imagine taking off for two weeks during a period I knew people would be counting on me to do something. My boss probably would’ve rolled with it if I had, but I don’t want my coworkers to hate me (and let’s be real – there will be some grumpiness from coworkers covering her, whether that’s fair or not.)

        1. AnonEMoose*

          Typically, there’s only one time during the year that I take off more than a day or two at one time, due to an annual volunteer commitment that is very important to me (and over the scheduling of which I do not have control). For a number of years, the timing of this was not ideal due to deadlines, and for a number of years, I had no backup.

          So stuff would just sit until I got back. Which was not ideal, but…I had asked for someone to be cross-trained to do at least the most critical stuff several times, to no avail. So…I kind of figured that management was deciding that the risk of some things not getting done was acceptable. After a few years, I did at least get some back-up, which helped a lot.

          It’s possible that Sansa’s situation is similar. Of course, I’ve also been on the other end of this. A coworker went on maternity leave (so it’s not like it was exactly a surprise!), and I was tasked with some of her work, with no notice and at one of my busier times.

          I was Not. Happy. For multiple reasons, not the least of which was that the work I was tasked with is work I worked hard to get away from doing, and I didn’t appreciate having it dropped in my lap at the last minute. And I REALLY didn’t appreciate having no opportunity to give any input on how much of this I could fit in with my regular work and negotiate some parameters around it. But I didn’t blame the coworker. I blamed Management, 100%.

        2. NoLongerYoungButLotsWiser*

          I saw above that someone talked a little about how since this was a somewhat flexible time for the procedure, this was perhaps a little passive aggressive.
          I’m still holding management accountable, because they haven’t staffed/cross trained corretly, but it can be a bit passive aggressive. It was for me.

          I had an untenable work situation a few years ago, was doing the work of 2 people, and a SME that they did not appreciate at all. (They kept thinking they could lay me off and outsource my knowledge to a contractor at random intervals – I was supporting 5 development teams with specialty teapot formula knowledge, and production support for “final answer” on teapot breakage. ) I had been told I was “probably not needed” and new boss “did not understand what I did or why I was there.” (think – he had one “gather info and then forget it” person per team, just building, and did not think teapots ever needed specialty knowledge to build or maintain once built – and certainly, I had nothing to offer in terms of strategy or experience.).

          I had vacation approved and had paid (in advance) for a trip overseas – non refundable and “boss” was not a reason the trip insurance would kick in. About 6 weeks before that vacation , I had the opportunity to get a medical (I did not use the word elective, boss was a jerk) procedure done – I was paying out of pocket. It required me to be off my feet for over four weeks. I did work from home the fourth week. Boss actually tried to point out that I was “taking time off again” for the vacation, and I pointed out that a medical procedure was not a vacation and he’d previously approved the vacation – which I could cancel if the company would reimburse me for the lost money. Were they going to? They were not, I could not cancel.

          Truth be told, I wouldn’t have scheduled the elective when I did, if they’d been a good department/boss and had adequate staffing. I had two reasons. One, I had a lot of long-term disability saved up, that I lost if I left the company. So I wanted to take that time and get the procedure done while I had paid leave to cover my expenses while out. Second, I figured the 5 teams and production folks would turn to him, for help in addressing the gap, and they’d either cross-train, or at least appreciate me.

          The experience did scare me enough that I beefed up resume, and when I came back and he reiterated that “I should probably find another role as they didn’t need a SME” – I let grandboss know I was looking to move up and out of her group, and why… and said I’d appreciate a good reference to (name of her peer who was hiring). Grand boss freaked out, begged me not to go, and said they’d fix it. Created a position for me, got me support to let me cross train a couple folks in the teams to be SMEs as well (and provided help to document my brain), and a retention bonus, so that if I did not leave, I got an extra bonus at the end of a year.

          But… yes. I knew the importance of my work, but that some managers won’t move out of lethargy until forced. The other benefit was that the woman who had taken credit for part of my work for several years (and thus part of the reason new boss didn’t know my value) was absolutely overloaded because she had to actually do that part of the work, instead of just taking credit for it. (think, making decks to showcase the strategy on those teapot specialties). When she hadn’t done any of the deep thinking on it for several years, and I’d done the decks – and she (as an MA in English) had “honed” and presented them since she was a senior XX.

          It was karma.

        3. Seeking Second Childhood*

          FWIW Timing may not always be flexible — a family wedding requiring travel, a chance to tag along on a spouse’s conference and only pay food&airfare, winning a prize, or the scheduled time spouse’s company shuts down its facility for a period.

    5. New Here*

      This situation exposes the lack of cross-training and coverage in the company. That’s on the company to fix. Until they can get there – how is it Sansa was trained in the first place? Make those SOP’s or work instructions available or task Sansa to create something that a temp could follow while she’s out.

      There is never a good time to take a break for medical issues and it likely came up after her vacation request / the timing of the procedure isn’t flexible probably.

      I don’t think the manager should rescind the vacation approval. They should use this situation to actively attempt to fix their coverage issue, though.

    6. Hope*

      Sounds like at least one more person needs to be hired and trained as a backup to the parts of these positions that are crucial and no one else knows how to do. You need some redundancy built into your staff if these roles are that critical. Sansa could get hit by a bus (or just take another job) and management would be in this same position. The company created its own serious problem here.

      Since it’s not your department to manage, I guess you don’t really have to worry too much about it, but I would take a hard look at your own department and if at all possible, make sure you’re not boxed into the same lack of coverage problem in areas critical to your work. Training might take ages, but there’s no reason you can’t have people trained in at least some parts of it over a longer period of time (which would then shorten the overall training time to get them up to speed to fill in if needed). At the very least, people should have policies/procedures for their work documented. It also doesn’t hurt if management learns some of the ropes to fill in crucial roles if something happens.

      1. CuriousNewbie*

        It certainly has made me look at my own department to consider this, which is why I asked the question. I would not want to find myself in this situation as a manager (or an employee to be fair). Luckily my department is not quite so rigid in terms of job duties; but it is a good learning experience for me to observe.

    7. Mimi Me*

      No. It’s not appropriate to un-approve vacation that has already been approved. The company should have a plan in place for things like this. It’s not up to Sansa to create that plan for them. She should, if asked, train her coverage. Other than that, no, she should not have to reschedule anything.
      A while back a co-worker here at my company had a similar thing happen. She had taken a 10 day vacation just prior to our busy season, but typically it’s a black out time for PTO as there’s a lot of prep work. Our manager had given her the time off as an exception (it was a trip out of the country for a specific event only held at that time of year). The day before she left her father went into the hospital for a planned surgery. During the time she was away there were complications with his surgery and when she got back she went on FMLA for 6 weeks – straight through our busy season. I think a few people grumbled to our manager about it because we had a meeting about time off / FMLA / sick leave. Basically my manager’s position was that shit happens and sometimes the timing sucks but that we should always feel like we can use our sick time or FMLA when needed. And also that the employee in question would much rather have been at work than having to care for her ill father.

      2. Flash Bristow*

        That last sentence is a very good point. I’m sure most of us would rather be dealing with the day-to-day of work than having to have surgery / deal with a sick relative / plan a funeral, or whatever it is.

    8. CatCat*

      but is it appropriate to un-approve vacation Sansa had already gotten approved?

      No. I wouldn’t be surprised if the result of taking an action like that is that Sansa quits. Then where is the company?

      The solution here is to start some cross-training immediately.

      1. Akcipitrokulo*

        To be fair – if I were in her situation had had the time off un-approved… I’d start looking for a new job.

    9. PizzaDog*

      That’s genuinely not Sansa’s problem, but one that the company created. What would happen if Sansa found her dream job and quit with no notice, if she got into a car accident and needed a year’s recovery (god forbid), if she won the lotto and walked out with both fingers up. What would the company do then?

      I think now is the perfect time to change how things work in the company and to get some backup training.

    10. The Man, Becky Lynch*

      Well that’s bad.

      I will say that I’ve seen this situation before and by trying to push back and remove her vacation approval, you run a huge risk of Sansa just quitting on you. Then how will you handle it?

    11. MoopySwarpet*

      Is it possible for Sansa to do any of this work remotely? I’ve had surgery before where I was out of the office for 6 weeks and then about 1/2 time ramping up to full time over the next 2 weeks. Recovery is hard work! However, I was able to do certain portions of my job remotely to help everyone else keep on top of stuff. I absolutely couldn’t drive into the office and sit for even a couple hours, but I could work for 30 minutes here and there up to longer stretches.

      I do think revoking the vacation is going to cause a bitterness that will make her immediately start looking if not quit on the spot. If she’s otherwise a good employee, I’d be much more likely to be as flexible as possible. If this is a long line of leaving you in the lurch, I’d be much more hesitant to approve inconvenient vacation time for her in the future.

    12. Argh!*

      Anyone could be killed by a meteor at any moment. If you don’t have a plan for how to deal with sudden employee death or absence, then you should have one. And then when they have a planned absence you and everyone else will know what to do.

  10. Transfer Salary*

    I posted a few weeks ago about salary when transferring (TLDR recap – I’m moving from high a CoL city (Emerald City) to a lower one (Kansas), Kansas is a really competitive market, and due to the timing of the move I’m skipping the annual raise)

    I had an interview that went GREAT, and received an offer this week to keep my “Emerald City” salary when I move to “Kansas”.
    When HR made the offer, she stressed how excited the team was about me, so I thought it couldn’t hurt to ask about salary, and countered with one of Alison’s scripts via email: “I am very excited to join the Kansas team! Do you have any flexibility on salary? Since I won’t be eligible for an adjustment until next year, I was hoping we’d be closer to $(offer +5%). If that’s possible, I’m happy to accept and can begin on XYZ. “

    IT’S WORKING. HR took all day to reply (and my heart was pounding each time I heard my email chime) and said they’re talking to the office leaders about my salary. I might get a RAISE by moving to a lower cost of living city!

    Thank you Alison and AAM Community!

      1. Transfer Salary*

        Nope – “Emerald City” and “Kansas” are just stand-ins for a high-CoL/large city (not Seattle) and a moderate-CoL/midsized city.

  11. Fishsticks*

    I was wondering if I could get some advice regarding interviewing potential hires. I’ve read Allison’s posts about it, but I’m still pretty nervous. I’m hiring my replacement in a two person company so it’s very important I select a good person since I’m conducting the phone screening and then deciding if they get an in-person interview. Also my boss is completely incompetent with technology and I literally have shown him how to find saved files about 15 times (he knows he’s not great at this either) so I’m not sure how to ask someone how they deal with the same repetitive question without making my boss look like an idiot.

    Honestly any advice would be very helpful! I’m posting the job today and going to start reviewing applications in a few weeks.

    1. Canonical23*

      Frame the repetitive questions as a need for patience and make it impersonal – “How would you handle a customer or coworker approaching you with a question that you’ve answered previously?” I work in library tech and I’ve been asked that question in so many interviews because the nature of my job often involves answering the same question for the same customer every day for a month. Good candidates will get what you’re hinting at and discuss their level of patience and empathy.

    2. The Man, Becky Lynch*

      Okay, first of all, breathe and know that you cannot known someone is competent until you hire them and have worked to train them. You may have to hire someone only to fire them rather quickly if they don’t pick up very fast. How long are you giving to transition out of the company?

      You need to find someone who has worked closely in a micro-sized company or who understand the complexity of it. It also depends on what your actual role is and what you’re advertising it as? Are you the support to the owner?

      I won’t lie, this is probably the hardest thing to ever hire for but you can do it. I’d need so much more information about what you’re looking for exactly to give you any questions.

      I had to hire for my role before and it’s accounting/administration, so I need someone with EA experience and also accounting experience, we exist but my God depending on the job searchers at any given time, it takes awhile to find the right fit.

      1. Fishsticks*

        So it’s a bit complicated by the fact I’m two years out of undergrad and I’m going be hiring recent grads who probably are graduating next month. I’m direct support to the owner and basically do everything that needs to be done (except some of the more difficult accounting stuff that we outsource). The role includes writing memos, general assistant work, and billing clients. Also the transition/training will probably be a day of me training the newbie and then giving them a 20-25 page guide to questions they might have (the guide has saved me sooo many times). Also I’m not being fired or let go, I decided I wanted to find a new position but I need to find a replacement first.

        Thank you!

        1. The Man, Becky Lynch*

          Oh thank God, this sounds less stressful knowing the details!

          They’re going to be eager to learn and get their feet wet in the job market given their recent graduates. So I would just let them know that the support feature comes with needing to be the tech-savvy person in the office. Which is to be expected.

          Since you have a guide that’s going to be what they depend on, ask them how they learn and how comfortable they are with this training procedure being their go-to. I would frame it as a “learn as you go” set up instead of an in-depth training setup that bigger companies use.

          It comes down to the personality and fit factor most of all here. Most people who are coming out of school are equip for the job smart-wise so now you need to find someone who thrives on independence and the freedom to try things to make them work. They also have your old files to fall back on, so they should have solid research skills [which I pray that anyone just out of school would have!]

          Since you’re not leaving due to hating your boss and wanting his face to rot off ;) is it possible to be on call for awhile in case they have questions? Even if it’s just by email, sometimes that helps a lot in transitioning! If only so you can say “That’s in the manual actually” or “the boss can actually tell you that, he’s familiar!”. It gives them a safety blanket of sorts. I rarely ever get anyone taking me up on the option but you can see the sense of relief wash over them when they know I’m not just flying into the night sky. That’s only if you’re interested in it though, which I figure you may be since working so closely with someone for awhile, you usually at least have some kind of Stockholm Syndrome to fall back on in wanting the boss to succeed after your time is done but if not, I understand that too. I’ve had to cut apron strings a couple times because it was over the top but that was rare.

        2. The Man, Becky Lynch*

          And honestly if a grad isn’t ready to answer the same “how do I save this file again?” question 36 times, they need to re-think ever being in a support feature or management later on.

          I’ve hired tons of people at this time and the repeated questions are going to always happen. It comes with the territory of working for people with quirks. So they need patience and if they don’t have it, it’s hard to really know until it’s too late sadly. They’re always say that they’re patient if asked and are ready to go without any issues, until they’re faced with exactly how many times a day you get asked to save a file.

          PS All my previous owners were awful with computers. I had to work on one bosses iphone frequently and I kept reminding him I don’t use apple products but sure, fine give it to me. I tried so hard when I trained my replacement to let them know he needs some assistance with tech a lot of times and they were all “oh no problem, I’m a tech masterrrrrrrrr it’s all goooood.’ They couldn’t even use tech themselves, they were fired within two days of me being gone. So it’ll surface fast if they lie at least. I don’t expect lies when hiring but I expect over-exaggeration and that they’ll obviously be selling what they think I’m buying. Just be open minded and remember that there are no right answers and a lot of it boils down to that gut feeling you get about someone.

          1. Fishsticks*

            Thank you so much! I was planning on offering to the new person my email if they need anything (particularly since my boss just doesn’t have anything to do with the day-to-day so he often doesn’t know the answer lol)

            I’ll definitely ask about the tech stuff using the repetitive tasks. Yeah this is definitely a fit issue as well since if my boss doesn’t like someone, they won’t get hired since we have to work so closely together.

    3. MoopySwarpet*

      That’s a tough one! I’m personally fair to great (depending on the day and other deadlines) at being patient with someone higher up than I am who has consistent issues with all kinds of things with the same/similar solution every time (did you try turning it off and on again). It’s relatively easy for me to be kind and patient with his lack of technical skills.

      On the other hand, I have a much harder time being patient with newer/younger people who should be able to remember these kinds of things and just doesn’t even try.

      I think something you could ask would be how they are at breaking down and explaining everyday technology. Maybe ask them to explain how to [simple tech task] and then simulate how your boss might react. Such as with saving, a fairly tech savvy person could quickly follow go to file, save as . . . but your boss might interrupt and need to be told where to find “file.” (I swear I have had similar conversations regarding printing . . . especially if a different printer is needed.)

      1. Fishsticks*

        Oooh that’s a great idea I didn’t think of since that’s literally what I do, (me: click the refresh button him: where is it/what’s it look like). So I definitely will keep that in mind. Thanks!

    4. Sleepytime Tea*

      I was… perhaps extremely honest when I was bringing in a replacement for me at a job. I told them straight up about a few of my boss’s quirks. (Two person company, just the boss and an assistant.) I told them that she would refuse to remove people from her totally spammy mass e-mails, but that they should do it anyway (because respect people). I told them she might get ridiculous and ask them to do things like put away her groceries (home office, and they should absolutely feel free to refuse such things, she wouldn’t get upset about it). I told them that she would try to call them on holidays and ask them to skip classes (we were both college students) and things like that to come and respond to an e-mail for her (and that they should also refuse to do that, and she would get over it).

      I could go into a lot of detail about the weirdness of that job, but what I wanted to make sure of was that the person knew that these strange requests would probably happen, and also that they knew that she wouldn’t go ballistic if they set appropriate boundaries, which I had done (I was leaving of my own free will). The person hired was appreciative of me being honest and for the tips, and they ended up working out great.

      It might be kind of weird to dump what you see as your boss’s short comings on someone, but in some ways it’s actually better for everyone. “The person you’ll be working with needs a lot of assistance with technology, even very basic tasks. Do you feel comfortable being asked to support them more than you might normally expect to in an office setting?” is a perfectly reasonable question to ask, and you should expect an answer along the lines of “absolutely, I have worked with people who have trouble using the printer constantly and always am happy to help them with it.”

  12. Kate Corrigan*

    I work at a state university and I just applied to a job at a different state university (same state). It was one of those horrible applications where you upload your resume and then enter in your education/work history (i.e. everything on your resume) with some supplemental questions. The application specifically asked about your current or previous jobs working for any state agency. Your total time working for the state is important for benefit reasons. Obviously I have no problem listing my current job, but 7 years ago I had a job at another state agency. I was there for a few months and then fired. This job is not listed on my resume or LinkedIn. I did not enter it in the work history part of the application, but I felt like I needed to be honest in the part of the application asking about work for any state agency, so I put it in. I’m hoping only HR will see it and that the hiring manager won’t see that I’ve mentioned working at a place that isn’t on my resume anywhere. Should I worry about this?

    1. Antilles*

      I wouldn’t worry about it.
      First off, many hiring managers aren’t going to read every line of the application and usually focus most on the resume.
      Secondly, even if they do read the entire application and see it, they likely won’t think much of a job you were at for only a few months 7 years ago. Especially for a short stint so long ago, the HM would likely just write it off as something you didn’t bother to list on your resume for space reasons because really, that short of stay isn’t going to be worth much anyways. No sane person would think it’s some kind of lie or intent to mislead or something.

    2. gmg22*

      I think Allison’s mentioned before that there’s no rule that resumes have to be exhaustive, and that seems like a good guideline here. That said, I’d still be prepared for it to come up in the interview and just to give an honest answer.

      We are in a hiring process right now where the leading candidate left a short-lived but recent position off his resume, but because we work in a small community and the position in question was PR-related, a question about it came up through word of mouth among my colleagues. Our boss is very well-connected and asked around to get the scoop about this, and it was nothing that would sink this candidate’s chances (to the contrary, it happened because candidate was sold a bill of goods about what previous position would be). So it wasn’t a problem at all, but it’s a good reminder to be prepared to answer any and all questions about both things that are on your resume and things that aren’t.

  13. Anon for Layoffs*

    I need to scream this into the void because it’s killing me. We are laying off 10 staff in a matter of weeks. No one knows except us on the Exec Team. I can’t talk to anyone else about it and it’s eating me alive. I can’t stand to see the faces (or even read names in emails!) of the people I know are getting let go. It’s a necessary step. The org has been completely mismanaged for years and new leadership is doing what needs to be done to save us. But damn it hurts. And I have to personally deliver the news to one of my staff. Ugh.
    Has anyone else had to do this? Commiseration or advice??

    1. Save One Day at a Time*

      Sending you hugs and/or handshakes friend. So sorry. I feel like the amount of empathy you have here will be good. Allison has given a bunch of advice about this over the years, don’t make it about you etc, but I know you know that. I think it’s okay to practice self-care right now to manage your stress, even if it might feel indulgent because you aren’t being laid off, but it will help you focus and be in the present as much as possible.

      That just stinks though. I’m sorry

    2. Ellen*

      Not terribly helpful, but I’m so sorry you are feeling this anguish. As much as you can, stay clear in your mind about why it must happen- sounds like you are in agreement that the layoffs are necessary. Know it’s going to be terrible, but this is the worst part…dreading it. Once the news is out, at least you won’t feel like you are guiltily guarding a harmful secret. Hang in there. Your conscience is healthy!

    3. MsManager*

      I am in a similar boat! The company is probably going to be sold in about 3 weeks and a whole bunch of people could be laid off without warning when it happens. Only the exec team and myself know. It is making me crazy!!

      1. T. Boone Pickens*

        -Under no circumstances say how hard this is for you to do this. You still have a job, the other person doesn’t.
        -Don’t get emotional, the last thing the person getting fired wants to see is the person doing it getting teary eyed.
        -Clearly communicate all parts of the separation and mention all benefits that the separated employee is entitled to receive (this might fall to HR in your org).
        -If possible, explain why this is happening.
        -Don’t take it personal if the other person gets a little heated. You’re unfortunately serving as the vessel for this bad news.

        That’s all I can think of off hand, I’m sure other commentators can add more. Good luck.

          1. T. Boone Pickens*

            Oh, my apologies. I saw your line about you possibly being the one to deliver news to one of the individuals and assumed you’d be the one firing them.

              1. MsManager*

                Ah no worries! I am but a humble document jockey in my particular situation so I was a bit confused–but I’m in a similar boat of wanting to scream into the void. It’s weird going to meetings and walking around with the knowledge that everything is about to blow up and everyone else is unaware

    4. Kathenus*

      As someone who’s been laid off, please really think about how you do this in a respectful manner. If you have staff who are performing well in their jobs who unfortunately need to be laid off, if you can do so please consider giving them an optional notice period to work before their separation, in addition to an appropriate severance agreement. If the person chooses to not work the notice, that’s fine. But if they’d like to, whether it be to have a couple of extra weeks of pay as they begin to figure out next steps for their life, to tie up loose ends so that they as a professional feel like they are doing the right thing for the organization, or to be able to have a transition period with their colleagues – let them have this option.

      It is SO hard and demoralizing to be told – you’re a great employee, we’re sorry this unfortunate thing has to happen, and oh yeah leave right now because we don’t trust you to be a professional anymore. There may be rare incidences where this isn’t possible, but I often hear that people can’t do that because they’re afraid the employees will do something to sabotage things or some other unprofessional conduct. But if you trusted the person until literally that very day, please don’t throw all that out the window in this situation. And yes, I speak from experience regarding how destructive this is to the person being laid off.

      And afterwards, don’t act like these people don’t exist. I’ve been at two facilities that did significant layoffs. At #1, it was like they erased the people’s existence from all conversation. At #2 they were still discussed in professional contexts, and respectfully, as if they had moved on for another reason. It’s an unfortunate reality in many businesses, but it can absolutely be done in ways that are more positive and respectful, or negative and demoralizing. I’m sorry you’re in this position, I had to lay off one person once do to an unintended domino effect from a reduction in force and it really sucks. Just do everything you can to treat them right. And absolutely proactively tell them that you support unemployment for them.

      2. Anon for Layoffs*

        I am happy to say that the one thing I can hold onto in all this is that we are doing it right. Because the layoffs are for financial reasons (we don’t even have enough in the bank to make payroll without a line of credit), we are not able to keep people on after their layoff, BUT we are paying out all unused vacation and everyone is getting severance. So people will be getting a good 3 months or more payout as a cushion to figure out what’s next. We will not contest unemployment.
        Ironically, we have spent more time on HOW we are going to do the layoffs than WHO to layoff. The logistics of it all, what to do with remote employees, etc. From reading this blog, I said from the start I was going to make sure we treated everyone with as much respect and dignity as possible. Luckily the rest of leadership feels the same way. We’re a good group in an unfortunate situation for sure.

        1. Kathenus*

          Thank you for considering so strongly the HOW on this. People will respect this, even if it might be after the fact with the shock of the situation. And as Alison mentions, the employees that stay will see how this is handled and will view the organization with how well or poorly this is handled in the future. Best of luck.

        2. Snarktini*

          It warms my heart to hear your team cares about how you do this, and are making a real effort on severance. Thank you.

          I worked in a toxic ad agency that had previously done really shitty layoffs. We collectively expressed our disappointment and fear, and they promised never to do that again. The next person let go (for cause!) was given a generous package, living up to their promise. But then they hit harder times, and dropped 75% of us on the *31st of the month* with *zero severance* and *no health insurance* as of the following day. They couldn’t have even given us one paycheck, or a month of insurance? Sigh.

      3. Dasein9*

        Also replying as someone who has been laid off: if you can provide references or networking opportunities for the folks who have to go, that will mean a lot. Even if it doesn’t lead directly to a job, boosting the reputations of the people being laid off can go quite a long way, depending on the industry.

        (Almost three years on, one of the biggest sore points remaining for me is the utter lack of support from the people who were made to look good by my success.)

    5. The Man, Becky Lynch*

      Been there, done it. It’s awful, it’s a “dead man walking” feeling in the pit of your stomach.

      Just remember that the hurt for you is very temporary. Once they’re gone, you’ll be fine after a few days. It sound so callous to say that but it’s true. It’s the dreadful lead up to the plank that hurts the most for us who have to do that, it’s still forever worse for the person on the receiving end and just be compassionate and internalize your emotions as much as possible. Venting and seeking commiseration here is a great option *hugs*

    6. Marthooh*

      Maybe try to put together a list of local support services, how to apply for unemployment compensation, help available from the public library, and… I don’t know, maybe there’s a website somewhere devoted to helping people find the right job?

    7. Akcipitrokulo*

      Remember this is not something that you have caused, and if you have any influence, do everything you can to make it as least bad as possible -advocate for generous redundancy/severance pay, let people have garden leave or paid time off if they get an interview during their notice period, and treat people respectfully throughout.

    8. Not One of the Bronte Sisters*

      It sounds like you’re handling it as well as it can be handled. What about any outplacement assistance? If your company can’t afford to do anything official, can you at least make a list of resources and offer it?

  14. BlueDays*

    Some interviewers are directly or indirectly expressing concern about how long I’ll stay in jobs I’m “overqualified” for. It’s getting frustrating because I don’t mention anything about specifically looking for part time work or wanting to be underemployed in my cover letter, so I don’t feel like I’m being misleading in any way and I’m not sure why they want me to interview if leaving for something better is a concern.

    I’ve been unemployed for a long time, so I need any job I can get, whether it’s only part-time or a full time job that’s a 60% pay drop from my previous job. If I got a job and was underemployed, I’d keep job hunting, but, at this rate, I might not be able to get a better job for years or maybe even never. How am I supposed to know if I’d stay long term or not?

    How should I address concerns about how long I’ll stay without admitting I’d leave if offered a significantly better job? Is there some way I could ask if it’s a deal breaker before phone screenings or going to interviews? Phone screenings and interviews are a huge stress and time suck for me (and the ghosting or rejections afterwards are depressing), so if I’m going to be rejected for being a flight risk I’d rather just skip them. I have a phone screening for a part time job scheduled next week and I’m dreading it.

    1. Ali G*

      Can you say something like: “I understand this position seems like a step back from my previous jobs, but I am really interested in learning more about X and getting back to doing Y. I hope this position can get me back on a path back to Z, which might mean my role is smaller than previously.”
      So basically you aren’t really answering the question, but showing you get it, and why you would want the job regardless (that isn’t I just need a job, any job!).

      1. BlueDays*

        I think this would actually work for the interview I have next week. I’ve been applying to position X type jobs that I’m really interested in, have the degree for and would be good at because of transferable skills, but that require 1-3 years of experience I don’t have so I never hear back from them. The part time job I applied to is basically the most entry level version of the job (requires no experience and no degree). So I could talk about how I’m interested in learning about it and trying to get on that career path. Thanks!

    2. Lucette Kensack*

      I think the only way to avoid this entirely is to not apply for jobs that you don’t want to stay in long-term (i.e., jobs where you’d keep searching after you accepted, because you were overqualified/underpaid/part-time/etc.)

      Being a “flight risk” is going to be a problem in most jobs. Nobody wants to hire someone and have them leave six weeks later, so any employer that has options is going to try avoid hiring someone who they suspect will leave. (It’s actually good hiring practice that they’re asking about it in interviews, rather than assuming it based on your application!)

      You’re in a tough spot, and I’m not saying that you can’t take one of these jobs and then leave it if you get a better offer. But I don’t think you can avoid being asked about the possibility, unless you avoid those kinds of jobs altogether. You just need to decide whether the stress of interviewing — and dealing with this question, and potential rejection as a result — is worth it.

      1. BlueDays*

        I would just not apply to jobs where I’d be a flight risk, but there just aren’t a lot of jobs I can apply to that I’m well qualified for or almost qualified for, and I feel like I have to apply to more than one or two jobs a week. Honestly, I get the most calls back about jobs I’m overqualified for. :/

        1. Meißner Porcellain Teapot*

          Eh, frankly, I’d like to push back on that. I think some of the worst job-searching advice I’ve ever gotten was “you need to apply for at least X amount of jobs per week/day”, because:

          1) The more jobs you apply for in a short timeframe, the more superficial your search, research and presentation is likely going to be. You’re likely to go sacrificing quality for quantity.

          2) Résumés and cover letters written from such a vantage point tend to smell of desperation. It’s like you can tell when people have been single for six years and are desperately trying to hook up and OMG YOU GOTTA SAYS YES I’M DYING HERE. Not a good look.

          I’m not saying that that’s definitely how your applications come across, but it’s a very real possibility.

          Honestly, as someone who once started working for a run-of-the-mill call center while having two Masters degrees on her résumé, here is what I can advise:

          1) Be very upfront about the fact that you are aware that you are overqualified. You can do this either in your cover letter or in the interview.

          2) Find at least one or two things to be really excited about regarding the job you’re applying to (or that you can at least fake enthusiasm about).

          3) Commit to a reasonable period to stay and then use that period to really search for jobs that you do actually want.

          For example, I was applying for a working holiday visa in another country when I appplied for the call center job. I mentioned that in my cover letter, explained that I did not expect to have the application granted and the visa issued sooner than within 8 weeks and that it would be valid for a year, so I was looking forward to spending at least a full year working in customer service and contributing skills X and Y that are not commonly associated with call center agents. I also pointed out that I really liked the fact that this call center was doing weekend and night shifts, because [insert reasons] (I don’t remember what I wrote, but the truth is that I was an introvert, single and fresh out of college, so I had zero commitments and night/weekend work paid extra). In the end, my interviewer still asked me about my over-qualifications, I explained my reasoning from the cover letter in more detail and in the end I was hired full-time and became one of their best employees. My working holiday visa was issued the week before I started and so I ended up leaving a little earlier than expected, but there were still no hard feelings.

    3. Mazzy*

      My biggest concern when hiring would be someone not being happy with the salary we offer and then accepting anyway, and always being resentful about it, and also not really being willing to do the lower level work that gets mixed into all of our roles. So if you expressed flexibility with those items and examples of doing work that was below the level of your previous level and liking it, or at least being OK with it, that would put me at ease hiring you.

      1. BlueDays*

        I’ve had low paying jobs doing lower level work before where I had to work extra hard because other people slacked off (they didn’t take the job seriously or didn’t care because they weren’t getting paid well), so I can understand the salary and lower level work concerns.

        I try to explain why I’m interested in the positions (I like tasks x, y and z) and why I’d be good at it (I have skills a, b and c). I guess maybe they just want someone who’s more passionate about it or has a specific reason to be doing it (wanting lower stress work, having to take care of a family member, etc), so I seem suspicious.

        1. Mazzy*

          Oh I think you’d be good if you’re explaining specific tasks you liked and why you’re good at them. I’ve had people in interviews just say “I’m Ok with doing that” type comments when I’ve asked about basic tasks, and that alarmed me.

            1. Mazzy*

              ONLY saying that is bad. “Are you OK doing data entry a few hours a week even though your previous role was higher level work.” “…yes…(silence).” Not great in an interview, in my experience, that basically means they’re not OK with it.

    4. The Man, Becky Lynch*

      I’ve taken jobs that are a step back from what I’m actually qualified to do. I usually tell people that I’m interested in working for them and doing the job that’s being posted, that I’m a dedicated person that doesn’t have any desire or ingrained mission to hop around on jobs unless opportunity really presents itself. Thankfully my track record also shows that, so they can’t really question it.

      I also explain that I have many interests and strengths that work well across the board and that I don’t need to do X to be happy, that Y works just fine for me too. I try to drive home that I’m versatile and can be happy doing just about anything for the right company. Keeping pushing it back as a “for the right company, I’m happy to be a part of the team, wherever you can find a place to put me!”

    5. TL*

      “If I got a job and was underemployed, I’d keep job hunting” – this is exactly what the hiring managers you’re talking to are worried about. Because it’s a valid worry! It’s also totally valid that that’s what you’re planning to do.

      My advice would be to think of an answer that satisfies their question of why you’re interested in that particular role that expresses something other than “I need any job.” I interviewed a candidate like this a while back. She’d been unemployed for a while after a layoff and had been a Director previously. She was applying for a Manager level job, which she was overqualified for on paper. She told us she’d been a Director and realized that type of role wasn’t for her. She didn’t like sitting in meetings all day and dealing with the politics; she was much happier doing the work of an individual contributor. It was believable and we hired her. (I think it was genuinely true, too, but you can have a similar answer even if it’s not true for you).

      In my experience a lot of hiring managers think about where a particular job would fit in the logic of someone’s career trajectory, which I think does make sense to consider. That doesn’t mean you can’t make the case that a particular job is for you even if you seem overqualified, but you do have to actually make the case if it appears out of line with what a “normal” next step would be for someone of your level.

    6. NoLongerYoungButLotsWiser*

      I “dropped down” (significantly) some years ago when I left toxicjob and interviewed for MONTHS before finding CurrentCompany. ToxicJob was with a high flying, well paying tech company, and a wonderful stock and bonus plan. But… I had an insane commute (5 hours to get home on my worst day ever), horrendous, long and sometimes erratic hours (think East coast coverage, so 6 am, but spiking to being there until 11:45 pm randomly on some proposal grinds), folks screaming at me…. and a mean boss (I did not mention the last one).
      Current job was known for being one of the 100 best employers, a quasi-non-profit with a mission statement and values that they (mostly) live, and honest leadership. And I could take public transit and still be there in an hour.
      I did an analysis of my hourly pay (door to door) and the pay broke out to the same, basically.
      More than that, I leaned heavily on why I was changing. It was important to me to not sound desperate (I was, but it is like my dating – the more desperate I sounded, the less attractive I was).
      My emphasis was on “I do my best work when I believe in the value of the company’s mission” and I “have done informational interviews with others who work here and understand that your company lives out it’s values and I would be honored to contribute my skills to furthering your mission.” In my case, knowing myself, I did add “I am not adverse to overtime and extra effort to ensure success, but I believe that a well run company has solid staffing plans and supports the health and well being of their workers… (I referenced my two anecdotes on the unrealistic expectations – including one about napping on the coach and getting back to work instead of going home, etc)
      I was hired. I rose up. I’m now double what I was hired at (granted, 15 years and much self-training and company-sponsored training and therapy later). I am about where I was with bonuses and stock value (which we don’t have) before, but I am sane and happy. And not dead from stress.

    7. Elizabeth West*

      This is hard. I have this problem–overqualified for most of the available jobs, but underqualified for the jobs I want. I never know what to say.

  15. SOAS*

    Reading yesterday’s discussion about bullying had me wondering a lot about this situation.

    We let go of an employee this week. They reported to me and 2 other managers. The employee claimed we were bullying them and putting them down. We let them go due to documented performance issues. I don’t think this was bullying or out to get them.

    performance wise they were alright (or so we thought) but their attitude was hot and cold and now we are finding that they lied about a lot of the work and it wasn’t done. (Ie things were marked as complete but then when we checked they were not filed at all).

    Things started out fine. They started as an intern and were hired FT to an administrative position but they wanted to be promoted to associate. We explained very clearly that they need X to be promoted. Typically other interns/admins have to get X AND be here for a minimum 6 months before promotions. The employee wanted a special schedule, which we never grant but did so for them. After the revisit period, Employee had not gotten X so there was no promotion. They then went above their manager’s head to our director and HR and CEO and said that we were discriminating against them and bullying them.

    After the promotion denial, over the next couple of months the employee would call out sick or came in late many times (we do not have flexible times or remote work, it requires them to be in the office). After the third call out, they were asked for a Doctor’s note which was not produced.

    During an extremely busy day, I assigned them a task that they is literally part of their job description that was part of the busy day. They pushed back, saying they didn’t want their numbers to be affected. When i gave them feedback, they said they get picked on. (to that point, whenever we saw anyone behaving a certain way, we nicely corrected them so it wasn’t a matter of turning a blind eye but we don’t announce “so and so was disciplined for doing this”). The thing that really irked me was that when I gave them the feedback, they tried to give ME feedback about MY behavior.

    They were hourly but automatically approved for overtime. So The final straw was that they were clocked out for several hours which one of the mgrs tried to talk to them about when they came back. When he brought it up, they screamed at him in front of everyone, saying that we’re out to get them And that everyone else gets a free pass to do whatever they want and they don’t get in trouble. They said “Some people go out for 2 hours and get their hair done and don’t get in trouble for it.” The mgr asked them who? and they pointed to me. Another mgr stepped in and we were taken to a room to talk. (Also that accusation is absolutely untrue and has no basis. I never did that).

    They ultimately were let go after that outburst.
    I feel like we did everything right — outline exactly what was needed to achieve a promotion, gave feedback when necessary. Documented everything from HR standpoint. It took several months and from what I heard, HR was talking to lawyers about this (b/c of the lawsuit threats).

    So… was this bullying? To be honest I liked them in the beginning and was supportive of them getting promoted. There were small issues beforehand but it amplified once the promotion didn’t happen.

    1. MissDisplaced*

      Nope. Not bullying. Being held accountable is not bullying.
      Seems like a pretty well documented case of performance issues, many of which were quantifiable.
      Let it go.

    2. Amethystmoon*

      I would say no, as someone who has been bullied. True bullying would have been raising your voice to the employee in front of everyone, and belittling him/her for whatever performance issue it was. This was addressing problems that needed to be addressed.

      1. SOAS*

        You bring up a good point…. I wasn’t treated very well in t he start of my job and there was a short time last year where I felt like I was being bullied, but it never really occurred to me that that’s what it was. So I am having a hard time separating bullying from being held accountable.

        Forthis person, I definitely feel like we held the person accountable. On one occasion I was going to talk to them and they put their hand up and said “don’t talk to me, email me only.” That’s so extremely out of line in our office culture that I was shocked. I wasn’t manager at the time so I didn’t feel I had much standing to say anything and they apologized afterwards and things were “fine” so I let it go. On another occasion, they said “you only got promoted b/c you’re (boss’s) *friend*” (untrue as well).

    3. The Tin Man*

      What MissDisplaced said – they were being held accountable. I assume they were clearly told “You did not get the promotion because you did not achieve X. When you do get there we will of course revisit this”.

      Was the third day doctor note request for a third consecutive day or the third day they called in sick overall? That’s the only thing that sticks out to me if it were the latter. If it was three days in a row a note is pretty standard.

      It really sounds like this person felt that they were being held to a different standard while not having a realistic sense of what standard everyone else was being held to and achieving/not achieving. The thing that puts the behavior over the line was outright lying about you leaving for two hours for a hair appointment. Given the other behavior it almost seems like they noticed you leave for something pre-approved like a dentist appointment and just assumed that it was a hair appointment for no particular reason.

      1. SOAS*

        I’m really not sure how they were held ot a different standard. It was the outburst that put them over the line not so much the hair comment (which was just SO out of left field). They were clearly told what was needed for the promotion and others were held to the same standard. As soon as they achieved XX they were moved up. so there were examples of people being held accountable.

        And for the hair comment..which was so out of left field . I did talk to my mgr about it (we have a good relationship) and he said it doesn’t matter even if I did, I’m salary and dont’ get paid overtime so it’s no one’s business if i’m not at my desk for 20 minutes at a time or something… and… I dont’ know maybe this is a tangent but our director works from home for days at a time or comes in at different hours than everyone else. As someone who reports to her, I would feel it’s very inappropriate for me to point that out and say its unfair. (it’s also b/c work gets done from their end).

        1. The Tin Man*

          Sorry if I wasn’t clear – the employee FELT they were held to a different standard. They weren’t actually.

    4. BlueDays*

      Definitely no bullying. Everything was handled professionally, fairly and reasonably on your end.

      It sounds like the ex-employee was very entitled and had unrealistic expectations and perceptions about work place norms.

      1. SOAS*

        I suppose that was it. I try to be sensitive about the whole “millenials are entitled” stereotype and other things, reading things here makes me more aware of different perspectives and all. I also feel like there’s a level of accountability as well?

        Plus this person was constantly saying they deserved it b/c they had an internship at a prestigious company. Like, I think that was great experience to have, but I don’t think that gives someone license to look their nose down at everyone they report to.

        Many years ago, before I started working here and I wsa still struggling to get a job. I was let go from a temp assignment. I was devastated and crushed. I had a lot going on. The person I worked for said. “I can deal with lack of skills but I can’t deal with a bad attitude.” As loaded as a statement that was, it’s stuck with me all these years.

        1. MissDisplaced*

          I’ve had a Bully Boss in the past, and it definitely wasn’t like this. Bully bosses seek to undermine, belittle or berate you even if you’re doing good work and behaving along normal workplace lines. Or they gaslight by telling you to do one thing, and then lying and saying they never told you that.
          It doesn’t sound like this was the case w/your employee at all.

        2. Iron Chef Boyardee*

          “Plus this person was constantly saying they deserved it b/c they had an internship at a prestigious company.”

          “Then how come you’re not working at Prestigious Company full-time?”

          Appropriate response to such a comment? Yes or no?

          1. SOAS*

            Not gnona lie, I thought this but never actually said it out loud. It would’vefelt too mean to say.

    6. The Man, Becky Lynch*

      From the details you’ve shared, it doesn’t sound like it.

      Also even if they are bullied, you don’t respond like they did without getting terminated. They only complained about bullying when they were in trouble it sounds like, not during their good-attitude periods. Which is a huge flag to me.

      Yes some people can crack after awhile and snap if they are bullied but this doesn’t sound like the case. They wanted special treatment and don’t understand how the office structure works. Just because someone can get their hair done every so often or have a standing appointment even, doesn’t mean that Anyone Who Wants It just gets to decide to go ahead and go on with it. Most of the time that kind of thing is approved in some manner anyways, to assume you can just do it is not the right way to go about it.

      They can threaten lawsuits all they want. That’s why businesses have lawyers and it’s the right thing to do to talk to legal counsel as HR is doing. Don’t sweat it. If it boils down to you doing something wrong along the way, HR needs to retool the procedures somewhere but it honestly sounds like just a loose cannon who wants to steamroller you and not someone who is actually bullied or retaliated against. A LOT of people throw around “I don’t feel safe” and “This is bullying” to try to manipulate the situation.

      1. JunieB*

        I agree! When I was in a situation where one of my supervisors was constantly belittling me and I felt unsafe, I checked in with some higher-ups to make sure my performance was strong and my behavior was acceptable, and made every effort to follow through on the suggestions I was given. When the harassment from the supervisor continued, I talked to her, and when she responded with more insults, I talked to HR. But throughout the whole process, I made sure my performance was good, and that paid off. There was no question about the fact that I was looking for help, not making excuses.

    7. Argh!*

      If they really were punished for actions that weren’t punishable in that climate, yes, it could be construed as bullying. If an organization is relaxed about timekeeping but punishes one person for being relaxed about timekeeping, that person has indeed been singled out.

      Whether it’s *illegal* bullying would depend on whether the person is in a protected class.

      1. SOAS*

        Everyone is held to the same standard in their position. Now, The time thing, so we work on an honor basis I guess? If you say you worked 70 hours, we take your word for it, we don’t audit it esp during busy season. But if someone is caught doing it like they were, there’s consequences (I can’t say they were the only one caught, as I am not aware of what happens on others’ teams). Policy here is also that you don’t *have* to clock out for 10-15 m short breaks, as almost everyone takes a short coffee break daily. I don’t monitor people’s comings and goings, but we just happened to notice they were out of office for several hours but still clocked in.

        1. Argh!*

          Breaks are supposed to be on the clock. The issue would be if everyone else disappears for hours on end while on the clock on a regular basis, it’s bullying if only one person gets punished for it. Also, if someone just forgot to clock out one time and they were punished for time theft, that would be rather excessive.

    8. Sleepytime Tea*

      Some people think they are being bullied whenever they don’t get their way. I had two coworkers who would go find an empty conference room and knit for HOURS. Then complain about their heavy workloads and how our manager was asking too much of them. When they left, they filed complaints saying they were bullied by our manager. Our manager asked them to… do their work. Nicely, but repeatedly. They reacted like she was Amanda Priestly in The Devil Wears Prada asking them to get a copy of the unpublished Harry Potter book.

      In reality, people like this are usually the ones who are the bullies. Screaming at someone? That’s bullying behavior, intended to intimidate to get what they want. They’re the bully, not you.

    9. Bagpuss*

      As others have said, this doesn’t sound like bullying, but like them being held accountable and not liking it.
      I had a similar issue with an employee who accused me of bullying him. In my case, what I had done was to check In with him about the progress of a specific, time-sensitive task he had, and make it clear that he needed to get it done, after he repeatedly failed to do it and lied about it. He accused me of treating him differently to other employees, and wasn’t able to grasp that he had been treated the same but then we had had to start to manage him more closely because of his performance issues.
      Some people react by attacking when they are held to account for their own actions

  16. merp*

    Classic nightmare – I found an error in my CV after applying to a few things. Think saying I started in March 2017 when I meant to say I started in March 2018. It was an honest mistake but I’m super worried that I now look like I am lying about how much experience I have (or am just careless, which is apparently not completely wrong)! Ugh, I’m so embarrassed.

    I asked someone else in my field (I’m in academia) and they encouraged me to reach out to correct it since I had a specific contact and an interview scheduled. I got back a reply that thanked me and that was it. I so hope I haven’t ruined my chances at this job :( Had fears about the interview being pulled but that doesn’t seem to be the case at least. Any thoughts here? If you were a hiring manager, would you forgive this?

    1. WriterNotEditor*

      This reminds me of when I was applying to editing jobs right out of college. Late at night and sleep-deprived, I blasted out applications to every company in town, stating that I had, and I quote, “a eye for detail.” Mortifying in any field, but especially when the entire job requires noticing that kind of typo! (I eventually did find an editing job and surprise surprise, I hated it! I’m more of a big-picture person than a details person. Now I’m a writer and it’s someone else’s job to fix my typos ;) )

      I think it depends on the job. It’s not a great look, but if you interview well and are the top candidate it’s probably not the end of the world. If it’s a communications-related job and that level of attention to detail is needed, it could count against you. But at the end of the day you’ll probably never know what’s going on in their heads. I would just revise and apply elsewhere, and use this as a learning experience that you can laugh about one day!

    2. BlueDays*

      Not a hiring manager, but I’ve had cover letters where I mentioned being “detail-oriented” and made some sort of stupid typo so I can commiserate. Soooo mortifying. I’d think a hiring manager would be forgiving about a single typo as long as it wasn’t for a writing or editing job. Hopefully they’ve job hunted before and understand that candidates are usually applying to many jobs where they have to write custom cover letters and fill out lengthy applications in a short time period, so little mistakes are bound to be made. (A lot of the e-mails I get from recruiters, hiring managers and HR have awkward wording or typos or other mistakes in them!)

      1. Wendy Darling*

        I sent two cover letters for two nearly-identical jobs at different (but very similar) companies on the same day, so I wrote a cover letter for one company and then edited it a little to use for the other company.

        Only when the second company scheduled me for an interview and I looked back at what I’d said to them did I realize I had *left the first company’s name in the letter I sent them*. I didn’t notice I talked about the entire wrong company in one line of this letter.

        Apparently they didn’t notice either!

      2. Dasein9*

        Using that phrase always seems to doom one to a typo!

        I have a theory that someone early on coded MS Word to create a small error in any document that contains the phrase “detail-oriented” 30 minutes after the document is saved and closed.

    3. whistle*

      I would forgive this. You corrected it, and it can easily be explained as typo (as opposed to fraud).

      Good luck!

    4. Works in IT*

      In my haste to scramble to get documents that are due Monday morning done in the next ten minutes I just realized I had set the date to “1/19/19” instead of “4/19/19”. And it’s for a massive evaluation of whether we can generate error free documentation, the results of which will determine if we can push for more manpower and an admin assistant.

    5. LJay*

      Absolutely. Everyone makes mistakes. This morning I sent one of our freight forwarders a tariff code for nuclear reactors when I meant to send the tariff code for seats. I noticed it, corrected it, everything was fine.

      If it were for a very detail-oriented job, I might have some concerns, but unless I saw other indications during the process of similar issues it wouldn’t be a disqualifying factor by any means.

      And proactively reaching out and correcting it would show me that you weren’t intending to benefit from a lie.

      If it were caught on our background check, it could be a problem. But even then usually you are given a chance to explain. (And this would be aided by certain things. If you were employed at another job from January 2016 until February 2018 we would be more likely to believe that it was a typo than if you were employed from January 2016 to February 2017 and then had a gap of employment that the typo conveniently covered).

      But being honest and proactive about it was definitely the right call. If it was going to be disqualifying, it would be disqualifying whether they found out about it immediately or didn’t find out until at the end of the process (or even after you got hired).

      However, if it wasn’t disqualifying in and of itself, the perception of dishonestly could throw it over into being disqualifying. Being open and proactive about it eliminates the perception of dishonesty.

    6. Darren*

      Even if I noticed such a date discrepancy on an applicants resume I wouldn’t have rejected someones resume over it. I might have asked for clarification during an interview to see whether they were working at two places at the same time (not impossible) or whether they just made a typo on the date.

      If you emailed me about it I’d have replied with, “Thanks for the correction.” removed the question from the list I would have been asking and moved on. The only role I could see it mattering in is one where absolutely no mistakes in such material is acceptable.

    7. GB*

      Are you me? I did the same thing but didn’t notice until I had an unofficial offer. I didn’t need say anything and it wracked me with guilt for almost the full first year I worked there. Props to you for mentioning it! I hope you get the offer and you’ll be able to accept guilt free.

  17. Bye Academia*

    How does your workplace handle paychecks during Leap Year?

    I get paid biweekly, and I noticed the gross pay for my last paystub was $10 lower than normal. I asked the payroll department about it, and it’s because the new fiscal year (4/1/2019 – 3/31/2020) includes Leap Day. They normally take my annual pay, divide it by 365, then multiply by 14 to get my biweekly pay. But for the next year they will divide by 366 instead. I understand it all works out mathematically, but it still leaves a bad taste in my mouth that, in practice, my paychecks are lower for the next year. I’m exempt so my hours aren’t counted anyway, but it’s like I’m working an extra day “for free”. Is this pretty common?

    1. Elizabeth Proctor*

      That’s odd. I was under the assumption that biweekly pay was calculated by salary/26.

        1. valentine*

          it’s like I’m working an extra day “for free”.
          But you’re paid by the year. Wanting an extra day’s pay is like saying you want to switch to hourly for that day or year.

          1. Bye Academia*

            I don’t think I worded that the best way. The whole reason I like being salaried exempt is not having to nickel and dime hours/days. But it feels like that’s what’s happening in practice because this extra day is making my pay lower for the fiscal year (it’s still a 26 pay check year).

            The more I write about this, the more I think my issue is just with biweekly pay. I’d rather have my actual salary paid to me every year than getting less most years and more once in a while in a 27 paycheck year. I know I’m getting paid the correct amount in the end, but I’d rather it be more consistent.

            1. Not A Manager*

              Just be glad it’s not paid on Leap Day, because then you’d only get a salary once every four years.

            2. Iron Chef Boyardee*

              “I’d rather have my actual salary paid to me every year”

              As in, one single paycheck or direct deposit annually? You must be great at managing your finances if you can do that!

              (Not intended to be a criticism or a snark. It’s just that I know I couldn’t do that, and I’d wager 99% of everyone here couldn’t either.)

              1. Bye Academia*

                No, I mean regularly throughout the year.

                But right now, the way they calculate pay means that, in a 26 paycheck year, the total amount that ends up in my bank account in a given year only covers 364/365 of my annual salary. That’s what I don’t like.

      2. Bye Academia*

        I mean, there are 52 weeks and 1 day in a year, so that also has some issues. If payment comes consistently every 14 days, there will be times where you get 27 paychecks in a year.

        The moral of the story is that bimonthly pay makes way more sense for salaried exempt workers. Alas.

    2. Natalie*

      I don’t think I’ve ever worked anywhere that calculates a daily rate to determine what your paycheck should be. The more typical way, in my experience, is to divide annual salary by 26 and then set that as the biweekly pay, or divide it by 24 and pay semimonthly (2 paychecks per month.)

      (If you’re paid biweekly there are occasionally 27 pay periods in a year, but according to the internet that happens every 11 years rather than every 4.)

      1. silverpie*

        Actually five years per 28-year cycle have 53 of any given weekday (ignoring the century-end irregularity), which is one in 5.6; and it takes two of those to add up to a fortnight, so one per 11.2 is the actual figure.

        1. Natalie*

          I suspect the internet was suggesting every eleven years on the assumption that you’d only match up with the biweekly pay cycle every other occurrence. That is if you have a 53-Friday year and the first Friday of the year is payday, you’ll have 27 paydays. But if the second Friday is payday, you’ll still only have 26.

      2. Bye Academia*

        Yeah, biweekly pay creates all sorts of issues like this which I guess is why people create all sorts of ways to get around it. I think that’s their argument, that it all balances out in the end.

        Why they wouldn’t just pay salaried exempt employees bimonthly and save everyone the headache is beyond me.

    4. Laura H.*

      Yeah… if it’s truly biweekly- it should be salary/26. I don’t know if there’s ever a circumstance where a Leap day would lead to an added pay period….

      1. Bye Academia*

        A full year has 52 weeks and 1 day (52 weeks and 2 days for Leap Year), so there are some years where you would get 27 paychecks. I guess they figure it all works out if you stay here long enough….

    5. Alex*

      This seems incredibly weird to me, because it doesn’t make sense to break your salary up by the day and then multiply. It should be broken up by the number of pay periods, which is either 26 or 27.

      In a year when there are 27 pay periods, your pay should be your annual pay/27, which would be lower than a year where there are 26 pay periods, in which your pay would be annual pay/26.

      If this fiscal year sees you getting 27 paychecks, then fine. Otherwise, it seems shady business.

    6. The Man, Becky Lynch*

      Salary is divided by pay-period and paycheck cycle. So a leap year doesn’t require any adjustments. It’s only those years that you have 27 paychecks in a year that we then adjust the salaried individuals to receive slightly less each check to make up for the extra check they’re getting.

      You usually divide by 26 but if there’s 27, then you divide by 27, simple enough. Paying by day is asinine and really unhealthy for morale, as you see here with you feeling like you’re working a free day! The important thing is that in the end if you’re slatted to make 100k, you get your full 100k by Dec 31.

      1. princesswings*

        We are paid biweekly. In our old payroll software, the employee record for a salaried person was designed to hold the biweekly amount, not the annual amount. So all the salaried people were getting an extra period’s worth of pay in the 27-period years. AND NO ONE NOTICED (I wasn’t here yet). The first payroll of the first 27-period year under the new system that calculates based on the annual amount, it took me a bit to realize why all the salaried employees were coming up short…serious Oh Shit moment. All my previous employers had paid semi-monthly, so the situation had never occurred to me.

        We ended up giving salaried employees the option of 27 smaller checks or 26 normal and just not getting paid the last period of that year (so as not to ruin the lives of anyone who budgets at two checks a month without any prior notice). I have a schedule of pay dates calculated out through my expected retirement year now so at least we’ll be prepared.

      2. JeanB in NC*

        I’ve never made any adjustments to biweekly pay. You divide the annual salary by 26 and let the paychecks fall where they do. There’s no adjustment needed.

        1. The Man, Becky Lynch*

          Then you’re overpaying salaried individuals by a paycheck every eleven years. Which is fine enough and most places don’t even notice, which is also an issue with internal controls not paying attention to their wages…

          The point of salary is to do it on a fiscal year. So no, it’s not necessarily something every company is aware of or adjusts for but it’s very much a norm to choose to acknowledge it and adjust for it.

          However the key is to ALERT YOUR SALARIED EMPLOYEES don’t let them catch this themselves. At the beginning of each year, payroll should send out a notice to employees that it’s one of those 27 paycheck years and that it will mean and adjustment to their checks [if they’re going that route]. We go that route. Our offer letters state “we will pay you X amount annually, paid bi-weekly.” we aren’t locked into any amount bi-weekly that way. If there’s case law that starts popping up, so be it but as of 2014 there wasn’t any.

          wagehourblog.com/2014/12/articles/wage-and-hour-policies/unusual-wage-payment-issue-in-2015-27-bi-weekly-pay-periods-not-26/

    7. Sleepytime Tea*

      You’re not working an extra day for free, you’re paid an annual salary. Your pay doesn’t change when there’s more weekend days in the year (yes, it varies, we have leap year because there are not exactly 52 weeks in a year, there are 52 weeks and 1 day), and it doesn’t change during a leap year.

      Your salary is annual and just divided up amongst the number of days, then since you’re paid bi-weekly they multiply that by the number days you’re being paid.

  18. Miss Fisher*

    Does anyone else have issues with work piling up right around 3 pm. It never fails to happen around here. Slow all day and then 3 hits and work comes piling in. Fridays always seem to be the worst as well.

      1. L. S. Cooper*

        And especially if things are slow enough that you wander off to do something else (with boss’ permission) and then come back to EVERYTHING IS ON FIRE OH MY GOD and feel just awful. (The fire thing is not entirely hyperbole, we did have a store that’s taken fire damage. Our store wasn’t on fire, but the one two doors down was. It’s probably a good thing for everything that our store didn’t burn, since my company sells a rather iconic style of molded clogs that are known for having a rubbery smell even on the best of days….)

        1. Works in IT*

          That literally happened yesterday. Slow day so I was investigating the source of a blown fuse with our interns, “hey, does this hallway feel hot…?” And the fire alarm went off. No fire, but apparently the heat from old musty building triggered it.

      2. Wendy Darling*

        I’m leaving on vacation tomorrow and people have just been piling stuff onto me since Monday. I’m on track to work 50+ hours this week even if I knock off early today and I’m so tired I no longer even want to go on vacation… I’d rather just spend the week at home decompressing from this week. (Not an option, we have nonrefundable things booked.) It’s like people realized I was gonna be gone so they tried to make me do all the work I would have done next week before I leave.

        On the plus side we’re coming back on Friday afternoon so I have next weekend to actually decompress.

    2. manuka honey*

      Yup, same here about Friday. They remember to submit the request Friday and then request for it to be done Monday…

      1. Dankar*

        Ha! So true. During the summer, things are pretty quiet in my position, but my boss would constantly call at 4:45pm to debrief since they were often in another time zone. Then I would have to stick it out for an extra hour at a point when work was so slow that they wouldn’t approve overtime.

        I got wise after week two and started coming in at 10.

    4. Mazzy*

      It’s logical when you think about it though, you need your position to be structured to expect that. For example, if you have Analysts calculating various figures and payments as part of their job and they need to pass them off to Accounting to book them, Accounting can’t expect the numbers at 10 AM Monday, because someone is spending their work week coming up with them.

    5. Liz*

      Not in this job, but a previous job where i was an admin in a corporate legal dept, and not just on Fridays. WE had set hours but the attorneys did not. One of mine lived a good distance away, and had small children. So she basically set her own hours, but the problem was, she would come in a good 2 hours after i did, and stayed late, which ok, but she’d hide in her office all day, and then, as I like to say “come to life” an hour or so before i had to leave. dumping all kinds of stuff on me she deemed needed to be done ASAP.

      While I was ok staying late once in a while, OT was frowned upon, so it was kind of a catch 22. I also didn’t have enough job experience or maturity to really push back. I finally did start pushing back a bit, and eventually got downsized which i wasn’t too upset over. But it really irked me that she thought it was ok for me to be at her bidding when she made up her own rules and hours.

      1. JulieCanCan*

        Infuriating! I have *so* been there! In fact where I am currently I get in first and everyone else trickles in between 9:30 am – 12 noon. Fine, they don’t really need to be in the office to do a lot of what they do, so it’s less crucial for them to have “face time” in our office. And those people are usually still working when I’m leaving around 5:30-6 pm. Yet for some reason I feel guilty or like I need to remind people that I got in at 8:30 or 9, as if they care or even think about it. I mean, maybe they do think I’m leaving “early “ but I try not to care too much, because I know I’ve worked a full day. It just looks like they’re the “late workers” and putting in extra time even though they arrived 3 hours after I did. If I could, I’d love to have a 10-7 or 10:30-7:30 schedule. Unfortunately my boss is really into someone (ie: me) getting in by 9 am. No real reason, I don’t have any work that requires a 9 am arrival. It’s just a “thing” with him and I don’t have the capital to try to change it right now. It’s fine, but I do love the idea of sleeping past 7 am.

    6. Zeldalaw*

      Yes! I was just talking about it with a coworker the other day. We have flex time and can come in at any time in a two hour window and then leave accordingly based on what time you came in. I always take the late time, mostly because I prefer to sleep later, but also because without fail, if I come in early, something invariably shows up at 3:00 and I end up staying way over anyway!

    7. Argh!*

      Work trickles up or down during the day as people clear off their desks by putting things on other peoples’ desks. It’s the way of the workplace.

      I have created a rule for myself to save Friday afternoons for clean-up at my desk and for anything that fell through the cracks during the week. If something arrives at 3:00 and isn’t an emergency, it goes onto the to-do list for Monday.

    8. The Man, Becky Lynch*

      Only in the case of having a firm cutoff time, so people are scurrying to put in orders by the cutoff.

      We have a “we can rush it if you get it to us by noon” deadline. So yeah, around 11:30 every day, you get the rush orders starting to screech in. [This is an internal deadline thankfully so it doesn’t really matter if it gets here at 12:05 but we wouldn’t tell the clients that of course!]

      But otherwise, no. Some days do pile up but that’s just the standard practice of work. But we’re in no way stretched thin or overworked in any aspect, so I’m constantly in a state of “zzzzzz something happen pleaaaaaaaaase.”

    9. OhGee*

      My colleagues stop by my desk with “just a quick question” at 4:57 pm, especially on Fridays.

    10. JulieCanCan*

      OMG last Thursday I literally spent 12 noon – 5:30 pm doing the least important “do these things when you have nothing else important to do” type of work then of course as I’m thinking of packing up for the day, my boss appears in my doorway to discuss and go over a systems issue that we ended up spending over an hour on. Why he didn’t ask me about it 4 hours earlier I’ll never understand. Finally I escaped around 7 pm but I was so irritated that I had that WHOLE day available yet the subject was not broached until I had one foot out the door. Sometimes I wonder if he does that intentionally or if he doesn’t even realize he’s doing it. I honestly cannot figure it out, but it happens at least once a week. I really want to believe he isn’t aware he’s doing it…..

  19. AndersonDarling*

    Has anyone found a way to successfully work with a bully? I generally hear stories of the bully being fired, or employees leave to get away, but those aren’t always options. I’m talking about a real “Biff” bully who teases and pushes people’s buttons. Like: “Hey can you pass me the TPS Report? Why don’t you have it? Only lame-o’s loose reports. Are you a looser lame-o? Because we fire pathetic lame-o’s, so you better keep looking. Oh look, here’s the report behind my back. I had it the whole time, how did you not know I had it!”
    Did anyone learn techniques to not let this kind of stuff get under your skin? Sometimes you just have to work with these people and it’s stressful when know you you have to, and it’s torture not loosing your cool when it happens.

    1. JunieB*

      When I had a coworker like this, I often pretended I was watching her audition for the part of the bully in a high school movie. I’d evaluate her performance—too over the top? Was her body language convincing? How’s the accent?
      It didn’t change her behavior, but it did make me feel a little better.

      1. The New Wanderer*

        I’m sure you didn’t do this out loud, but I just imagined that you did. Very satisfying! :-)

    2. irene adler*

      Here’s what I can think of:

      -Avoid them whenever possible.
      -don’t get sucked in by their games. Keep it professional at all times.
      -Learn to recognize when he’s about to spring one of his antics on you. Plan ways not to engage when this happens.
      In my case, the bully started with an email, written about some topic to ‘get my goat’. He would accuse me of something that was blatantly not true. I know from experience that he does this because he’s looking for a fight. He’s hoping that I will respond to the email with argument. I have learned to ignore the email completely. I used to engage in argument over his untrue assertions. And I never won such arguments. Ignoring him works because it denies him the opportunity to escalate.

      -recognize that it’s their issue here. Bully needs to taunt people to make himself feel better. When I view the bully in this light, all I feel is pity for how pathetic he is. Doesn’t he see how obvious he’s making it that he’s got problems?
      -if you do have a ‘run-in’ with the bully, do what you can to curtail it quickly. The less exposure there is for you, the better.

      -practice some self-care when he does aggravate you.

      1. AndersonDarling*

        Great tips! False accusations is something this bully does as well. In this case, he is making mistakes and trying to find a scapegoat, but the more you try to correct the situation, the more his power grows…like the end boss in a video game.

        1. irene adler*

          The false accusation bully is difficult. I feel for ya.

          They aren’t so much interested in the truth of the matter as they are interested in using the accusation as justification to bust someone’s chops in the most abusive manner possible (that they know they can get away with).
          It’s hard to do, but don’t let your emotions factor into your response to the bully’s accusations.

    3. Aggretsuko*

      It’s work, you have to fake like things are normal. Act like they’re a customer or someone else whose shit you have to eat. Smile, be perky and pleasant, and don’t let them see they bug you, because then they win.

    4. Flat Penny*

      Just remember, there isn’t much more pathetic than a guy who peaked in high school and let that set his personality for life.

      And since you did not peak in high school, there’s no more reason to let him get under your skin than you would an actual 15-year-old.

    5. Zephy*

      The hard part about this flavor of office bully is that their favorite tactic is gaslighting, so even if you document every game of Asshole Keepaway Wild Goose Chase that Biff plays with you, all he has to do is say “nuh-uh” and suddenly you’re either (1) a tattletale, (2) overreacting, (3) a liar, or (4) all of the above. These guys are also usually charismatic as hell and in good with the boss, too, which extra sucks.

      All you can really do is make it boring for Biff and hope he goes off to bother someone else. Don’t engage, and keep immaculate records of literally everything you touch – when you received it and from whom, what you did to it and when, and when you handed it off and to whom. Email is handy for this. Be in the habit of dating and signing everything. Try to encourage Biff to contact you only through written media (email, Slack/Discord/etc) – cut him off in-person or over the phone with “I’m in the middle of something right now, but send me an email and I’ll get back to you” and then disengage. It sucks that the only way we have to deal with the Biffs of the world is basically foisting him off on someone else ad infinitum, but maybe eventually they’ll get bored with being turds to everyone and start acting like decent humans.

      1. Elizabeth West*

        It may happen; I’m not saying it’s impossible, but I’ve never seen an adult bully stop being a turd.

    6. CM*

      Yeah, so I ultimately left the job were I was getting bullied but I was able to extend the time I could stand working there by 1) deciding that I didn’t care if I got fired and then 2) dropping any mask of civility toward that person at all. By which I mean, the response to “Ooo where’s my report” would literally be “Don’t fucking talk to me.”

      Like I said, I was okay with getting fired at that point — my game was just to try to stick it out as long as I could and keep getting paid while I looked for another job. I honestly don’t believe there’s a solution that would let you tolerate that long term.

    7. Earthwalker*

      Mom always said that if a middle school bully can’t get a rise out of you, they’ll get bored and give up. I’ve found that is not true of 50 year olds who act like children. You don’t want to give them the satisfaction of a reaction, but if they’re still acting like schoolboys/girls, brace up, because they won’t get bored and quit. I found the behavior a tad easier to take when I read that workplace bullies tend to pick on the person they find to be the most competent because that person is the most threatening to them.

      1. AcademiaNut*

        This is not true of middle school bullies either! They can tell when they’ve got a good victim and will just keep going until it becomes too painful for them to continue. Being quiet and ignoring it just makes it easier for the teachers to ignore what’s going on.

    8. The Man, Becky Lynch*

      I yawn and tell them they’re boring AF. They get all flustered that I’m not falling into their trap.

      I’ve got my own asshole streak and I’ll let the flag fly if necessary. Know the limits of course but the whole “Bro, you’re a real idjit right now.” works on a lot of them.

      1. Lilysparrow*

        Yeah, I’ve found the attitude of silent staring and “Are you done yet?” can take the wind out of their sails.

  20. Plant Lady*

    Results from the poll I posted in the Friday Open Thread two weeks ago!
    (I apologize for not getting it up here last Friday – I was out of town.)

    If you’d like to see the poll and add your answers too, you can do so here:
    https://forms.gle/R64GR8q37gntANkZ9
    (As of my writing this comment, 102 people have taken the poll.)

    1) Do you get separate vacation and sick time, or is it pooled together? ||| About two thirds (64.6%) have separate pools. About one third (27.3%) have it all pooled together. A few people had different systems or could choose between the two options.

    2) Adding up all of your paid time off, including vacation and sick time, how much did you get in total your FIRST year at your current job? ||| More than 70% get between 11 and 29 days off including both types of PTO. 34% got 11-19 days; 37% got 20-29 days; about 20% got 30 days or more. Only one person had unlimited PTO and 5% got fewer than ten days. See the whole chart here: https://imgur.com/kUoJ6St

    3) How long is your commute to work? (How long it usually takes you, using the mode of transportation you typically take.) ||| 47.5% have a commute that’s 30 minutes or longer. 33.3% have a commute of 19 minutes or less (including 5 people who work from home); 41.4% have a commute between 20-44 minutes; and 26.3% have a commute that’s 45 minutes or longer. See the whole chart here: https://imgur.com/tAPXT5q

    4) HOW do you usually get to work? Check any method that you use at least once a week. ||| The most common methods were driving oneself (59.6%) and public transit (33.3%.) Not a single person bikes! 10% of people walk or jog; 3% carpool with a spouse or someone else; one person takes taxi/Uber.

    5) How long of a lunch break do you normally take? (If you work nights or another schedule, substitute your longest meal break here.) ||| 19.2% don’t take a lunch break and 8% take less than half an hour. 31.3% take a half hour and 33.3% take an hour. 7.1% said it was totally different every day.

    6) How do you feel about your current immediate supervisor, on a scale from 1 (terrible human being) to 5 (one of my favorite humans.) ||| 2% said (1); 3% said (2); 16.2% said (3); 50.5% said (4); and 28.3% said (5.) That means that 78.8% ranked them better than neutral/average!

    7) How many of your coworkers would you label friends or work friends? ||| The largest chunk (48.5%) said 2-5 of them (with teams larger than that.) 20.2% said More than 5 (with teams larger than that.) 8.1% said they considered their whole team friends. 13.1% said one person and 8.1% said no one. Two people don’t have coworkers.

    8) How much do you like your current job, on a scale from 1 (I hate it) to 5 (I love it.) ||| 2% said (1); 6.1% said (2); 16.2% said (3); 52.5% said (4); and 23.2% said (5.) Again, this means that 75.7% feel favorably or positively about their jobs.

    9) What percentage of your work day do you usually spend NOT working when you should be working (e.g. browsing social media; reading this website; writing personal emails; reading something on your phone; etc)? ||| 37.2% of people said they spend 11-75% of their work day NOT working (which means at least ~an hour a day if you work 8-hour days.) 27.8% spend 6-10% of their workday NOT working (~30-45 minutes of an 8-hour day.) 35% of people spend 5% or less of their day not working (5% said they never are NOT working when they should be.) See the full chart here: https://imgur.com/JV3Mi7g

    Any interest in another poll? What questions are you interested in?

    2. Gerald*

      Neat stats! I cycle, but only half the year as the paths are impassable in winter without fat tires, and I live too far away to do that (roads are often too problematic (not plowed wide enough) when sharing them in the winter). I would probably pick transit if I had one choice, but cycling is a close second.

    4. UKApplePie*

      Clearly you need some Londoners answering this – there are so many of us who cycle to work each day!

      Also, being in the UK our sick leave is complicated – I can self certify for x number of days, then I need a doctors note. And we also have long term sick leave which kicks in after y number of days (but pay is affected).

      1. Tau*

        I just answered to give OP someone who bikes to work (Germany here) and was a little stumped about the sick leave question. I ended up putting “separate pools”, but I don’t get “X days of sick leave” the way Americans seem to. Sick leave is effectively unlimited, but I have to provide a doctor’s note after three days and pay drops when the health insurance company takes over paying after six weeks.

      2. Awful Annie*

        Yes, I believe that I’d get up to 6 months sick leave, if that’s what was needed.

        The lunch break is an interesting one – I have a working lunch with colleagues every day. I can skip it, but it is very much part of the expectations of my role.

  21. CaseyJd*

    This week I had a call with an external recruiter who requested names and contacts for my references, with plans to contact them to learn more about me before submitting my candidacy. I’m just embarking on a job search and want to limit how often I go to the well of using my resources, so I’m going to pass on this role. Has anyone encountered this with a recruiter before?

    1. AndersonDarling*

      I find that this is generally a scam. If it wasn’t a well known company, I wouldn’t hand over anything. Sales companies would run fake job ads to get your references and then call them to make sales pitches.

    2. irene adler*

      Good instincts!
      Recruiters should talk to the references after the interview.

      No reason to talk to the references prior to the interview.

      IN fact, they might find one of your references to be a better fit for the role than you are. And try to talk them into interviewing for the job.

    3. Chocolate Teapot*

      I had an initial meeting with a new recruiter, who told me I had to give the details of 3 references before they would even start to submit my application.

      In addition, I had given a salary range and was told it was too high for the kind of jobs I was looking for. So how much was I prepared to ask for? I gave a lower sum, still in the range the recruiter had said was the range for the role. This was followed by a lecture on why had I given that figure!

      I decided I didn’t want to work with them after all.

    4. Organa*

      I’m convinced that many recruiters are just running scams. I applied to a posting once through a recruiter, interviewed, and was offered the job. The recruiter demanded to know my bottom salary before he would disclose the offer details so that he could negotiate on my behalf. No, buddy, you don’t work for me and I’m the only one who negotiates on my behalf. I also had questions about benefits that he refused to answer. Nope, nope, nope. I let the CEO know that I appreciated the offer, but I had no interest in working with a company that would use a recruiter like that.

  22. In Mourning*

    The best boss I’ve ever had is resigning in a few weeks time. :(

    Any tips for working well with a new boss, or experiences you’d like to share? I’m a little nervous about the new dynamic, especially since this past year I earned so much capital and trust from my departing boss, I feel as if I’ll be starting all over. I’m a little nervous that certain things I’ve already arranged (future professional development opportunities, a flexible schedule) will need to be re-approved, but my grand-boss does know about them already… Just a little nervous and looking for tips/past experiences, etc.

    1. Erin Withans*

      I’ve been there, and I’ve had it go well and really not. My main advice is to go in being open – I had a (great) boss let go a couple of years ago, and a coworker of mine was really obvious in how angry he was about it, and it poisoned his relationship with our new (also, it turned out, great) boss, who had nothing to do with the firing of our first boss.

      It also helps to be really explicit – I’m on (another) new boss right now, and I’m often saying things like, “I work best when I’m given a problem and left alone to chew on it a bit, and then come back with a solution. Does that work for you, or do you need me to be in touch more about my process?” It’s helped us dial in our expectations and communication. (Thank you, AskAManager! Reading this column has helped me a lot)

      Similarly, it’s good to check in with them about the things you have pre-approved so nothing is a surprise. Maybe during a 1-on-1 you can say something like, “Just to make sure you’re in the loop, I’m scheduled to go to X conference from the 3rd to the 5th, and I leave early on Tuesdays, but make up the time at home later. Here’s how you get in touch with me if you need something while I’m gone.”

      I’ve generally had things go well with that. The time it didn’t was pretty clear from the get-go that newboss was terrible, and I got out quickly.

    2. Policy Wonk*

      I work for the government, so get new political bosses with some regularity. Some of them are fantastic, some not. To me the biggest thing is to listen. What is important to this person? What are his/her priorities? Is this a person who wants details, or is this someone who gives you the big picture and wants you to figure out a way to implement it?

      Try not to constantly compare new boss to old boss, that’s not really fair (though it is natural!) If you can, start fresh – this is a new day, and the boss may have a new way of doing things. Be prepared to explain things that you think are obvious – they may not be so obvious to a newbie to your company, even one with lots of experience in your field.

      Finally, brush up your resume. It never hurts to be prepared if you just don’t mesh with the new boss.

      Good luck!

    3. The Man, Becky Lynch*

      I find the best way to handle a new boss is to stay open minded and to go in with the idea that things are going to change. Be flexible from the very beginning.

      A lot of my conversations with new bosses are “This is how I/we do it now but if you want me to change, that’s cool, I’m ready to roll whichever way you want to.”

      I have rarely ever had anyone want to make any massive changes/waves or whatever. But the open minded/flexible route will save you a heck of a lot of stress in the end.

      This is key really when any role in your department changes, just assume they’re competent and team players from the start, if they’re not, it’ll show sooner than later but just mentally prepare to be adjusting, that’s the best way to make it less painful and stressful to you.

    4. Spunky Brewster*

      My department has cycled through multiple managers in as many years. It’s been a nightmare. I’m now on the verge of being let go for performance reasons for not meeting Most Recent Manager’s expectations. I say this not to scare you, because I’m seriously looking for advice on how to cope with this upheaval myself. I guess I’m not great at dealing with this constant change.

  23. FaintlyMacabre*

    I inspect llama breeders and cover a large territory. I want to be able to map out where I visit, with notes about when I visited, and maybe a way to color code where I’ve bisited, where I’ve not visited, and places that need to be reinspected. Any recommendations on where to start? I looked at Google’s mapping program, but they wouldn’t let me do anything without a Google account. If I have to bite the bullet and use their system I will, but are there any other (free or cheap) alternatives out there?

    1. Save One Day at a Time*

      All the ones I know of, free or otherwise, you’ll need an account for. Google mapping would have been my first recommendation, maybe a free or cheaper GIS program would do the trick. There’s a free version of social explorer.

    2. PersistentCat*

      Try QGIS (free, open source) or see if ESRI’s online mapping bit has a personal use component that is free/affordable if you’re really against Google Earth or Google Maps.

      I believe what you need is under story mapping, and there are typically ESRI hosted webinars available for free, and QGIS has quite a bit of active forums and youtube videos available.

      Hope this helps!

    3. Canonical23*

      I took a GIS class in my masters program and Tableau and QGIS both have free options and are pretty easy to pick up if you’re tech-y.

    4. Close Bracket*

      You could do this with Python. You would have to learn a fair amount to get there, though.

    5. Kendra*

      This isn’t actually a helpful solution, but I can’t help picturing one of those policework/crazy person maps you see in movies with newspaper clippings, sticky notes, and pins with yarn connecting various places on the map. This would probably be relatively cheap, if less than convenient.

  24. Brooklyn 99 is a great show*

    I’m in a new role (started in February) and I’m still feeling so new. I eat lunch alone at my desk because that’s the only logical place I can think of. The others in my area are out of the office by noon. I feel so isolated, my last job was much more busy and social. I didn’t know it would be this different because I was doing a very similar job before but was at a different school, which was how I learned about this position in the first place. Because of that, I’m still in touch with my last school for professional purposes, and I can see how well my replacement is fitting in — which makes me jealous (I know that’s not the best) because now I don’t feel like I fit in either place.

    For context, I’m a non-teacher at a school.

    I have to tell myself that this was a good move for my career, but the isolation is getting to me. Any advice?

    1. Completely Different Name for This*

      I think you should find a way to eat lunch in a social setting, even if it takes some effort. Is there a cafeteria or diner you could go to? That would help a lot!
      I hate being isolated and go to trouble for social occasions. It’s worth the effort!
      Also if you’re alone in the afternoon, maybe move to a desk closer to other people?

      1. brooklyn 99 is a great show*

        I’m actually not sure where everyone else eats lunch. There is a tiny workroom in the front, but I was told yesterday that there might be a teacher’s lounge in the cafeteria that I can look for, though during actual lunch I need to be working so students can find me if the need to. My office is in the back so I can’t really switch spots unfortunately .

        1. Completely Different Name for This*

          I would find out where they eat lunch and go there. There must be somewhere.
          If it turns out you’re in the cafeteria by yourself or something like that, maybe a neighborhood diner? Sit at the counter, that usually encourages people to talk to you. :)

          1. valentine*

            Get out of the space for a chunk of time. Are the grounds nice? Is there a bench somewhere or are you able to go for a walk?

        2. Someone On-Line*

          Can you invite people to come eat with you? Any particular teachers or other personnel you need to work closely with? Just start rotating through names and pitch it as a way to get to know each other to make work run smoother. After a few months you’ll probably have made some connections, both personally and professionally.

        3. The Man, Becky Lynch*

          My brain kind of broke. So someone says there’s a secret hidden teachers lounge someone that you can just simply ‘find’ and they can’t just say “it’s that door over there!” or give you actual directions!?

          Is this a pirate school, do they have secret treasure maps to each super secret room you need to uncover?!

          That’s such a bizarre setup. We give people a complete tour of the facility of “This is the break room, this is the kitchen”, but this isn’t a school, so maybe this is an academia thing. So truly weird that they’re kind of just leaving you to wander around and figure it out.

          I would just get to the point that I explored everything and figured out what each room was to solve this mystery of a secret hidey hole of teachers eating lunch!

        4. Iron Chef Boyardee*

          “during actual lunch I need to be working so students can find me if the need to. My office is in the back so I can’t really switch spots unfortunately.”

          Doesn’t that mean you can’t actually go out to lunch, as in leave the building, but you have to eat at your desk?

          If so, wouldn’t that preclude your ability to go out to lunch with co-workers?

          Or did I miss something?

          1. just a random teacher*

            It sounds like the OP has to eat their lunch at some specific time before or after the general “lunch” time that teachers and students get so they can provide coverage of some kind during “lunch”. This is pretty common for classified staff in a lot of schools, since lunch is when students can go get errands done with the secretary/bookkeeper/librarian/whatever without missing class. It’s also common for aides and other support staff to be supervising students at lunch (so that teachers can get their lunches) and given a lunch break during the academic period before or after lunch. (I once subbed at a middle school that made substitute teachers supervise the student cafeteria at lunch and eat their lunches on the prep period of the person they were subbing for. I avoided subbing at that school unless it was a last minute job and I had nothing else lined up for the day, because that’s awful.)

            All I can suggest for the OP is to try and find out if anyone else has the same lunch break they do (which would probably be someone else on duty during lunch) and figure out where they eat.

            1. Cats and dogs*

              I suggest looking for social interactions potentially not associated with the lunch break. During another break or right after Work? Maybe ask someone who seems nice to get coffee to get the inside scoop about the school etc?

  25. Mimmy*

    Is it a red flag if the job announcement lists one of the qualifications as experience with Microsoft Office 2010? If it matters, this job is at a state university in the Human Resources department. I would’ve thought a major university would at least be using Office 2016! Maybe 2013.

    1. Four lights*

      I don’t think so, especially for a state agency. Upgrading programs for big organizations is expensive and time consuming. And as long as the program is working well, they may not want to upgrade for every release because it’s another expense for the licenses. My law firm only upgraded everyone to Windows 10 last year.

      1. Toodie*

        I work at a software company and was finally forced to give up my beloved Dell so I could go to Windows 10, and that was in February.

        1. Wendy Darling*

          I work for a tech company and they’re gradually moving everyone to Windows 10 (all new hires have gotten win10 machines for at least 18 months, but existing people are being upgraded piecemeal) and we’re using a current version office but… Visio 2006. For some reason. My best guess is they got a site license for Visio 2006 and refuse to let it go.

          1. Clisby*

            And in some companies, they’re not so quick to move because the Windows machines are basically terminals to get to Linux or Solaris servers, where the real work is done. The Windows machines are basically for email, Word, the occasional Excel or PowerPoint document – no big deal which version you have as long as it works.

        2. Elizabeth West*

          I used to also and held onto my Windows 7 machine until they started upgrading to 10. I wanted to skip Windows 8, haha.

          Now I’ve been forced to upgrade at home. Blergh. Oh well. I thought, At least I’ll be used to it by the time I find another job. Now just watch NextJob have Win 7!

    2. Kimmybear*

      I used to work for an association of higher ed professionals. Having departments or teams that were using software 5-10 years old was not uncommon.

    3. AndersonDarling*

      It’s possible that they just reposted the description from the last time they did a search, and no one noticed the discrepancy. As long as there aren’t any other red flags, like needing to use a facsimile machine or dictaphone, then you should be good.

      1. Four lights*

        Lol- I work in a law office and some attorneys still use dictaphones, because that’s how they’ve done it for the past 50 years and they aren’t changing now.

    4. Janteloven*

      In my experience it’s super, super common for big university and hospital networks to be using almost EOL products like this. They only upgrade when it hits that 10 year mark and their vendors won’t support it anymore..

    5. Admin of Sys*

      eh. I mean, I think it’s a signal that either they aren’t updating the job requirements very carefully, or that they may have a home built system that’s stuck on 2010 because it relies heavily on that version of Access or something. (If it wasn’t HR, I’d say that they have a couple of tenured folks that won’t let go of their technology. Universities are notorious for having to support out of date software for the good-at-grants vip professor who has tenure and has decided that they are going to use the pine mail client until the day they retire, gdi.)
      In any event, the UI doesn’t change much from 2010 to 2016, so if you’re confident in your office skills, you’ll be fine.

      1. SignalLost*

        I always enjoy being reminded that the college website I supported had traffic from IE 6 because one user would not upgrade. In 2015. I flat out told my boss that I wasn’t going to design anything that would accommodate that, and he could just continue to use badly out of date software to … not see anything anywhere I assume?

        1. TiffIf*

          For a VERY long time we had to support IE8 because many of our clients were still using Windows XP I think it was around 2017 when we finally cut off access to our app for IE8. Then it was another fight to get them off IE9 and 10.

          My clients are insurance companies. Like the big ones whose commercial jingles/tag lines you know by heart.

    6. CheeryO*

      I don’t think it’s a red flag as long as outdated technology isn’t a deal breaker. I work for a state agency, and my PC is at least a decade old and runs on Windows 7… we had some XP machines hanging out until very recently. We just got updated to Office 2016, and it was a huge to-do. You’ll get used to it!

      1. Cog in the Machine*

        Lol. We were still running a few MSDOS programs until we upgraded to Windows 7.

    7. The Man, Becky Lynch*

      No. Most places with tight budgets are always going to keep a software until it has to be updated.

      People use the software until it’s not supported for glitches and bugs anymore is my experience.

    8. Mimmy*

      Wow thanks for all of the responses!

      I don’t think I’m going to apply for the job after all. Not because of the age of their MS Office though – I don’t have the level of experience they’re looking for or the preferred degree.

      But good to know that this isn’t too uncommon. I currently work for the state, and the student computers were upgraded to Windows 10 when I started two years ago; yet, the staff computers were upgraded just a couple of months ago to Win 10 – we’d been on Win 7. Now I think both student and staff computers have Office 2016 or 2019 – I forget.

      Now, if my state university would just catch up…. ;)

  26. Completely Different Name for This*

    Hi everyone,
    I’d love your thoughts about what might be going on with my employer. I work for a hospital that’s owned by a healthcare corporation.
    I don’t work in patient care, I work in the administrative office for one of the departments.
    My department is considered a loss leader – it brings patients to other departments, so the hospital values it.

    We have a corporate manager who has been over our department for a few years. She keeps trying to take over everyone’s administrative work and do it herself. She said she would give the physicians their productivity information (which affects their pay) but did not. It’s not possible for one person to do all the things she’s trying to take on.

    There have always been delays in the physician’s productivity information, and last year the corporation changed the way the physicians are paid without their input or giving anyone time to discuss and ask questions. It was this same corporate manager who handled it, and the way it was done upset the physicians very much. It was like she and corporate were trying to alienate them. They feel they are being screwed.

    After that it got worse. One of the physicians representing all tried to talk to a VP and was shut down with the implication she did not have standing to talk to the VP. Corporate is planning to cut PTO for senior physicians. It really seems like they’re trying to alienate the physicians and/or damage the department. Two physicians have given notice so far.

    Almost all of this has come through the corporate manager who’s trying to take our work. What she’s doing isn’t rational because it’s not humanly possible to do all these jobs by herself.
    It might be that she’s going rogue – but her bosses have not stopped her.

    For background, I’ve worked here several years and corporate finance has always sent us documents that were full of simple math and data mistakes which I had to correct. They have never seemed on top of things.

    We’ve all seen examples of corporations acting clueless when they’re doing something for a hidden reason.
    Why do you think they would be doing this? Is it the usual corporate cluelessness run amok, or is there a reason?
    Any suggestions will be helpful. Thanks!

    1. AndersonDarling*

      I’d guess that it comes down to one or two people with a power complex. I can’t imagine physicians standing back and letting this happen- I’ve seen physicians actually stamp their feet and threaten to quit when they don’t get their way. And wow, did management hear about it!
      I’m betting that a physician or two will eventually reach out to someone at the top and then the fiery hail will rain down.

      1. Completely Different Name for This*

        I hope so! My boss is also talking about going over the corp. manager’s head. He’s too “nice” – it might take him months to work up to it.
        The one physician reached out to a VP and was shut down – so maybe it’s a corporate thing? Or just a misunderstanding?

        1. valentine*

          They are embezzling. Where are the checks and balances? I’m reminded of the city worker who stole to fund her horse obsession.

          1. Completely Different Name for This*

            There have been many signs of penny-pinching – they’re always looking for ways to pay a little less. Typical corporate – they never make enough, and can never cut costs enough.
            But the pay is all documented with hard numbers and the physicians would take action if their pay was shorted – so I don’t think it can be literal embezzling. It would not be surprising if it’s related to money. Not surprising at all.

            1. Not One of the Bronte Sisters*

              I completely agree with valentine. There is definitely something hokey going on here. There are a million ways to embezzle without shorting the physicians’ pay. Could they be raiding the physicians’ pension fund? Purchasing new equipment, charging it to your hospital and having it delivered somewhere else? Purchasing drugs, charging them to your hospital and then doing goodness knows what with them (which I will leave to your imagination)? Selling off assets and making the money disappear? Falsifying the records of how long patients’ hospital stays are? Filing false claims with Medicare and Medicaid? That last one can get them into BIG trouble because of a piece of federal legislation called the False Claims Act.

              1. Michaela Westen*

                Yes, I agree it seems like shady things are going on. But how would alienating the physicians and making them quit help corporate with any of this?
                All corporations seem to have this attitude of wanting to make more and more money and never being satisfied. This one definitely has it and has not been competent with the financial paperwork. But what does that have to do with making the physicians quit?
                The physicians aren’t involved in the finances, purchases or Medicare claims. Once they enter the bill for the service to the patient, they’re done.

    2. Red Reader the Adulting Fairy*

      That’s wild. At all the hospitals I’ve worked for, everyone walked on eggshells to keep from bothering the physicians, to the point where documentation isn’t sufficiently billable but nobody will make the physicians give us enough information that we can actually charge for what they’re doing. The idea that the docs are low enough on the totem pole that the administration is jerking them around is totally foreign to me.

      1. Completely Different Name for This*

        That’s what makes it so strange! Don’t they know without physicians, they won’t have a department?
        Sometimes such cluelessness is really about a hidden reason, like decreasing the value of the business, but of course they never say so…
        I’m trying to figure out if a hidden reason like that is in play. I tried googling and got nothing.

        1. Red Reader the Adulting Fairy*

          Well, I mean, there needs to be SOME pushback on docs. We’ve been trying for literally years to get a requirement for our docs to put a reason on lab tests, because without a medical reason for the test we can’t charge for it, but the docs don’t want to, so we do five figures in lab tests a month that we can’t bill for. (I’m hearing they’re finally going to start mandating it at the end of May, and the docs are already pitching tantrums. I fully expect that we’re going to start getting lab orders that say “sick” :P )

          1. Completely Different Name for This*

            Yes, I think your physicians went too far the other way. We’ve been using EHR for a while and there are state requirements for documentation of certain cases, so ours are used to documenting everything. We also include the physicians in tracking billing and making sure it’s correct. Some like to be involved in that, others don’t and just ignore it.
            The problem with the way the pay change was handled is if corporate was *trying* to alienate the physicians and make them quit, they could not be doing better. I’m wondering why. I’m sure more will give notice in the next few months.

    3. Maya Elena*

      Maybe they’re trying to push out the senior, expensive physicians so that they can hire greener, cheaper ones who will get paid whatever they’re given?

      1. Michaela Westen*

        Maybe! But so far it’s not working. The ones who’ve given notice are the younger and less experienced ones.

    4. The Man, Becky Lynch*

      It’s a power play move, they’re trying to restructure the back-ass-way of being sneaky about it. Trying to push out physicians who want to raise a stink, thinking their name and hospital standing will keep these highly skilled and sought after professionals in their grubby little hands.

      I don’t know why the woman is trying to do so much, other than to assume she’s inept and power hungry. Or she’s trying to figure out where to cut other staff because it really sounds like a bad bad bad bad shady re-structuring or overhaul underway.

      1. Completely Different Name for This*

        Thank you!
        Can you elaborate on what they’re trying to restructure and how it’s shady?
        Thanks!

      2. Completely Different Name for This*

        “Trying to push out physicians who want to raise a stink”
        This would explain why they shut down the physician who tried to talk to them.

      3. Completely Different Name for This*

        I saw a friend today and asked her what she thinks. She sees doctors in a different company from the one I work at.
        She’s had to change doctors twice recently because they closed the office she was going to and her primary transferred to a suburb.
        She found someone at a different company, and that doctor is leaving to go to another company!
        She asked this doctor what’s going on, and it’s the same stuff. The corporations are jerking the doctors around and causing them to leave. My friend also thinks it’s a corporate power play.

  27. The Other Dawn*

    So, how are changes in pay grade handled at your company?

    I’m at a new job and have someone who wants to move up a pay grade (very new supervisor of one). While she is a supervisor now, her job is much different than that of others in the department, some of which have a higher pay grade. While she’s more on the systems side, their jobs involve a lot of analysis and judgement. I know it’s not simply a matter of changing it. There’s much more, I assume, that goes into other than “this is your title, you’ll be paid this much.” Although maybe it works that way at some companies?

    I plan to check in with HR at my company, but I’m curious as to how others handle it and what they factor in when changing someone’s pay grade. At my previous company this just never came up, and it was really HR that dictated these things.

    1. Would-be manager*

      We have a review process that is carried out by HR. You have to establish that the job has changed by more than a certain per cent of the duties.

    2. Ali G*

      Each employee here has a template that is filled out where their job duties are ranked on 1-3 scale. The rankings are weighted and the total “score” puts you into a pay scale range. The only way to move up a grade is to prove you have moved from 1 to 2’s or 2 to 3’s in many of your job functions to increase your score.

    3. (Mr.) Cajun2core*

      I work at a large state university. It is a basic 5% pay increase for one pay grade up. The range is 5% to 15% but 5% is the norm. However, as always, things can be negotiated.

    4. Earthwalker*

      I worked in a company that had pay ranges for each job title. They were periodically updated by HR, who did research to see how much similar companies paid. There were five bands on each title’s pay range that corresponded to the score on the employee’s annual evaluation. A chart showed the mandatory raise depending on the gap between the actual salary and the pay band. The manager would walk through that at each annual review: “You’re paid here on the chart, but with a review rank of four, you should be paid here. Follow this line over and – see? – we need to raise your pay by this amount. You’ll start seeing it in the paycheck on this day.” When a person moved from one title to another, often the chart indicated a large raise. My next company was less systematic. We got cost-of-living raises and anything else seemed to be a matter of manager’s discretion. A promotion might get a raise but the manager could say that it had to wait “until we see how you do,” which might not happen at all unless the employee asked for a raise and was successful in getting it.

  28. anon lawyer*

    I left a large firm a couple of years ago when I moved out of state, though I would have left that firm even if I stayed local due to mental health reasons (I was not cut out for that level of stress). I’m doing really well at my new firm and a lot of it is due the training I got from the partners at my old place. It’s been exactly two years since I left – would it be weird if I sent them a note letting them know how I was doing and thanking them for the training?

    1. Glomarization, Esq.*

      I wouldn’t, no. I’d put my supervising attorney(s) on my end-of-year holiday card list, and I’d connect with some number of colleagues from the firm on LinkedIn, though.

    2. Boomerang Girl*

      If there is someone in particular who mentored you, I think that sending a note to him or her thanking them for what they did for your development is okay

    3. Policy Wonk*

      I have twice in my career received such “out of the blue” thank you letters. I really appreciated them – each made me feel like I made a difference to the sender. If you decide to do this, I would focus on sending a note to an individual who helped you, thanking them and noting the impact they had on you and your work. Keep the personal update short – and depending on your relationship with the person, I’d limit it to the professional.

      1. Cats and dogs*

        Agree. And while I think no one should be embarrassed about any mental health issues, I think it would change the nature of the letter sufficiently to include their mention here. So I wouldn’t divulge anything about it (personal or work related) That sounds like a good outcome- good for you Anon Lawyer!

    4. JulieCanCan*

      I think a note would be much appreciated. So few people take the time to thoughtfully put into writing their thanks, and I guarantee you the recipient will feel great knowing he/she helped you out in whatever way you indicate in the note.

      For some reason so many folks on AAM seem to be anti-thank you notes, which is so disheartening to me. I am a huge proponent of notes and have always been told that my thank you notes were very much appreciated and often the only note someone received after giving a party or whatever the note was thanking them for. It’s kinda horrifying and sad that note-sending seems to have gone the way of the Dodo. It’s like etiquette is no longer important. My aunt is one of the top etiquette specialists in the country so I have every book and article ever created on the subject, I’ll never give up having exceptional etiquette skills. It should never go out of style if you ask me.

  29. Someone On-Line*

    For those who do hiring, how do you make sure you are hiring for diversity? W’re in public health and these roles require a college degree and either four years of experience or a master’s degree and two years of experience, so we’re looking for some experience. I would like to ensure that the staff here come from a variety of socioeconomic backgrounds, racial and ethnic backgrounds, life experiences, LGBTQ, etc. It’s really vital in our work that the people doing the work reflect the communities they work in. But as a new manager I have no idea how to go about doing that.
    Suggestions?

    1. Would-be manager*

      You don’t hire for diversity – you recruit and advertise for it.

      What I mean is that you can’t do this after you have applicants to pick from. Think about things like the language you use in your ads, the requirements for the job, how upfront you are about paying for interview expenses etc.

      Do you absolutely need those qualifications or do you need a specific KIND of experience?

      1. Someone On-Line*

        Yes, good point about what we need to do. How do I do that? Ha! This is for state government, so there are no ads – it just posts to a website, though I am able to reach out to organizations, when I know they are there.

        To get through personnel we need some pretty specific requirements – sometimes we can argue that experience personnel doesn’t count really does apply, but it’s up to the applicant to do that. Yay state government?

        1. Aspiring Chicken Lady*

          This is where strategic “signal boosting” comes in handy.

          Post announcements/links to people in the communities that you’re trying to reach. Email folks that who have connections that are more diverse. Add your commentary about the posting that emphasizes the need for people of many types to provide this service. Maybe mention any special benefits that state employment can provide beyond, say, not-for-profits.

          Ask your allies for help in getting out the word.

          Just because the boring post is buried in a boring civil service job board doesn’t mean you can’t get it out there.

      2. Glomarization, Esq.*

        Bingo. Ideas that come to mind off the top of my head: Advertise the jobs in forums where you will reach populations that are less often targetted. Recruit at HBCUs. Check the language of your job postings for words and phrases that (to paint with a broad brush) may discourage applicants who are not white males. Include language like a boilerplate “Employer, Inc., is an equal opportunity and affirmative action employer committed to assembling a diverse, broadly trained faculty and staff. Women, minorities, people with disabilities and veterans are strongly encouraged to apply.”

        1. AnonJ*

          This is good and I’d also suggest looking at how the physical requirements of the job are presented and if they’re truly requirements. Boilerplate language like ‘ability to lift 25 pounds’ or ‘able to stand for extended periods of time’ and the like are just thrown into job ads by some organizations, without consideration of whether they are really essential requirements for the job and whether accommodations can be readily made. That 25 pounds can likely be wheeled around in a carry-on type of bag or moved in some sort of cart, and does someone really need to stand for the job? Can they truly not do it from a sitting position or in a wheelchair? Pay attention to those physical requirements in the ad so you’re not alienating people with disabilities who may otherwise be perfectly qualified.

    2. TiffanyAching*

      All of our search committees have a “search advocate” whose job is basically to challenge any implicit biases that might come up. They try to make sure that candidates aren’t dismissed for not having the standard/expected experience, even if they meet qualifications; that all candidates are judged using the same metrics; that kind of thing. The goal is to widen the pool of qualified applicants, so you have a more diverse population to choose from.

    3. Lucette Kensack*

      1) Reconsider education requirements for these roles (unless its required by licensure, etc.).

      2) Consider why it’s important that your staff reflect the communities that they work in, and write that into the job description. You’re not going to describe specific identities, but instead the skills and experiences that are important. For example: experience as a patient in free- and low-cost public health systems; experience connecting with patients across lines of difference; etc.

      3) Review your job postings for coded language that subtlety suggests that you’re looking for a certain type of person. Words play differently with different people.

      4) Be intentional about how you share job postings. What job sites are they on? What networks are you circulating them through? Are there affinity networks that you can use to distribute job postings?

      5) Consider removing identifying information when you review applications (names, etc.) to avoid bias.

      1. Argh!*

        I avoid applying to places that advertise for someone “energetic.” To me, that spells “YOUNG!” and it also spells “WE ARE OLD-FASHIONED GAS BAGS!”

    4. epi*

      There are a lot of opportunities in public health that are specifically intended for, or at least prioritize, people from groups that are underrepresented in public health or other health professions. You may want to look into whether you can structure any jobs that way. In some cases, your organization may be able to be the site for a post-doc or fellowship program that is intended to increase diversity in the field at large. For example, I just got a program notification about the NHLB PRIDE summer training program which is for underrepresented junior faculty. But I know there are similar national and state-level fellowship programs for people with masters degrees or who intend a career in applied public health or government.

      You could also think about what skills are framed as essential vs. nice to have in your ads and interviews. I am at a particularly diverse and health disparities-focused school of public health, so your mileage may vary. But in my experience people from underrepresented groups are actually relatively well represented in public health practice areas that serve those groups. If you require experience in those areas, you will also be more likely to find the interpersonal skills you need, even if you end up with an ally who is not from an underrepresented group themselves. So if you plan to hire someone who will work in practice areas that involve gender and sexuality, consider requiring that people have some prior experience in that; possibly even community-based experience specifically. If you think Spanish language proficiency may be needed, consider bumping it up to a requirement or strongly preferring people whose first language is Spanish.

      In contrast– and I say this as an epidemiologist– I think sometimes technical skills requirements for public health roles could be treated as more negotiable. It is not that hard to pick up a new stats package if you already know a different one. If you’ve demonstrated an ability to apply biostat concepts that are not usually covered in MPH core courses, you can probably do it again with something else. If you have some exposure to GIS, you should be capable of digging into the documentation and leveling up at it on your own if needed. There just aren’t as many unknowns as whether someone can be effective and earn the trust of people from a group they haven’t worked with before.

    5. Bostonian*

      Take a look at your online presence, especially your website. Make sure that your organizations’ mission, values, etc. reflect your commitment to diversity.

      I work for a company that really showcases on its website the community work, charitable giving, and awards that we’ve gotten (best place to work-type awards, best place for diversity and inclusion, etc.). Those things don’t go unnoticed: When I was doing phone screens for an open position, many people said they were drawn to the fact that our company cares about those things. And the resumes with the best qualifications were people from a variety of backgrounds.

    7. Organa*

      I’ve worked in state government and been a hiring manager, and my biggest challenge was fighting with the awful job postings and screening system. If someone didn’t answer the application questions exactly right, parroting back the language of the question and adding a few details, then the entry-level HR rep doing the screening would kick them out as unqualified. I was only allowed to see the apps of the people designated as qualified. I know there were plenty of people who just didn’t check all the boxes properly and didn’t make it to my list. So make sure that you let applicants know how to complete the darned application properly!

    8. Elizabeth*

      Do some assessment of the team members you already have and work out what sort of a person you need to balance out your team. It is very easy to recruit “in your own image” and that gets a new team member who thinks like you, talks like you and works like you. No team works well if all the team members think and work the same way – but equally, all team members need to know that their skills are a valuable part of the way the team works. If you are very aware of this, you will end up with a diverse team with a range of skills – who will probably challenge you to the extreme because they all think and work differently to you and you will struggle to understand and connect with initially – but in the end, you will learn great staff management skills and will get some amazing results.

  30. Princess Deviant*

    So, I’m on my way to getting an autism diagnosis, I hope! The GP has referred me to a psychiatrist for an assessment although I don’t know how long this will take (UK, NHS, Waiting Lists).

    The reason I mention this is because my mental health due to sensory overload in work is getting to breakdown level. I don’t know when this assessment will be, I don’t even know if I’ll get a diagnosis… which makes the situation at work difficult.

    They’re hiring another 2 people for the team at the end of the month, and because there’s no room and we are all part time, we’ve been told we’ll have to hot desk. This has absolutely thrown me into a tailspin of anxiety because I need my own desk, and I can’t tell my boss why this is a horrendous idea for me without revealing sensitive medical/ disability information which I don’t even know will turn out to be officially the case. Obviously I hope it will be official and then I’ll be in a better position to ask for reasonable adjustments in work, but for now…

    Any advice on how to approach this?

    1. Would-be manager*

      Can you ask to be referred to occupational health so you can talk to them rather than directly to work about what you need?

    2. Yarrow*

      Oh hey, I’m actually doing an assessment soon for the same reasons! I’m in the US, so things may be different, but I’ve been told that if I go through an occupational therapist and get a formal diagnosis, I can get accommodations through HR without having to give details to my managers. I am not even sure if a quieter/calmer office is available for me but I might as well try. It’s so hard to work in a room full of people and I cannot imagine hotdesking and not having daily meltdowns.

      If you think you’ll have to start hotdesking before you finish your assessment, you may need to speak to your manager about your situation. Maybe you could say that you’re undergoing evaluation for a medical condition that makes it difficult to focus without being specific. Hopefully they will understand, but I bet you’ve noticed it’s common for people to brush these kinds of issues off. Especially if you’ve been masking how hard a time you’re having as a matter of survival.

      I really hope this goes well for you.

      1. Princess Deviant*

        Thanks very much and good luck to you too!

        In response to both your and world-be manager’s replies, I am seeing the OT as part of the assessment and so don’t think I would be able to see the occupational health without a diagnosis first. And then my understanding of it is that the recommendations can be made when the assessment is done so there would be no need for an occupational health assx after that anyway, but I could always ask for clarity from my GP who has been really good.

        1. Would-be manager*

          Occupational health is something you access through your employer, separately to any professionals you’re seeing yourself outside of work.

          They can write a report for your employer and make recommendations.

      2. Princess Deviant*

        Oh and I just read what you said properly duh! Thanks for the info – it’d be good to go through HR directly and not my boss at all.

    3. Akcipitrokulo*

      I know I say this a lot… but join a union. TUC website has a good resource for finding the right one for you. Before you talk to anyone at work in case it does go wrong.

      For the rest – I’ve struggled with mental health in the past, and it’s not fun. You don’t need a diagnosis of autism to qualify for accommodations for just general mental health and anxiety issues. If you trust your manager, or someone in HR, then have a chat (but please get union representation first) and you may find it will all go off without a hitch.

      If it doesn’t – can you have the *same* desk, even if it’s shared? Is it possible to talk to the other people with whom you’ll be sharing and work something out?

      It also wouldn’t hurt to get your MP to see if they can put a bit of a push on to get things officialised with diagnosis… depends on MP of course, but some can be awesome.

  31. Sue Ellen Mischkey*

    For the love of all corporate workers, PLEASE END TEAM BUILDING (once you have a feel that the general pop at your company doesn’t enjoy it). Granted, I just don’t like them. It’s annoying. I like my team and management. Interacting daily to execute work and company goals is team building enough. It seems the only staff that actually likes it is management. At almost every company I have worked at everyone has HATED these activities. Everyone let’s out groans and grumbles under their breath. If folks don’t like it then why do we continue to subject ourselves to this! Now I must endure yet another of these events and suspiciously a lot of staff have called out today. Rant over.

    1. L. S. Cooper*

      I think the way team building exercises work is they make everyone so miserable that they bond over complaining about it. That’s the only way I can possibly grok those bizarre and tortuous outings.

    2. ginger ale for all*

      I actually like one form of team building – the paid for lunch. No lectures, no games, no activities, just food.

      1. Lily Rowan*

        Yeah. My team is “well built” through working together and good management, so I think people do appreciate the opportunity to be social together — when it comes with free food!

    3. Earthwalker*

      The game ones give the overly-competitive and the bullies a sanctioned opportunity to make their coworkers miserable. Whoever doesn’t win a non-work-related competition is a Loser and Not a Team Player. I’d sooner see that if a team isn’t gelling on a project, that good management helps them to get over the hurdles and build teamwork on that project.

  32. Karyn*

    Freelance friends:

    Anyone have any recommendations for billing/time tracking software? I’m currently using Freshbooks and would like to transition to something new. Preferably something that will allow me to import my current data for the year, including clients/projects, rather than having to type it all over again. If it matters, I’m in the legal field.

    1. A Consultant*

      I’ve been using ZohoBooks for my accounting. I’d never heard of it before I researched options, and it was a full-fledged bookkeeping system that ticked some of my biggest boxes. It lets you set up clients, and then projects (i.e., multiple separate contracts with the same client). I found it had the most flexibility in customizing invoices to actually look like I needed them to (which was big for my work). And it has an integrated time-tracking system, with the option of a little browser widget so you can track time as you go during the day. When I set it up, I was able to import data from my old system fairly easily.

      I’ve hit bumps with it, but they’ve mostly been small. Overall it works for me.

    2. Beth Anne*

      I’ve used Harvest in the past but you only get so many projects for free. I’ve heard a lot about 17 hats but I haven’t tried it. I hate time tracking I’ve yet to find a system I actually like.

    3. MoopySwarpet*

      I’ve used Wave apps. I’m not full time freelance so I haven’t used it a lot, but it is free and functions. I’m not sure how it compares to FreshBooks.

      I really like ATracker Pro for time tracking.

      1. Madge*

        I use wave as well but you can’t import data. Well… maybe. There’s a new feature that integrates with google spreadsheets that says it goes in and out but I suspect it’s just out. I haven’t played with it yet.

    4. JulieCanCan*

      We use Bill4Time, it’s my favorite out of the 3-4 systems we’ve used over the last 5 years. I think it’s very user friendly and pretty much everything you need in a billing system. We’re not attorneys but bill the exact same way they do.

      It’s a bit pricey but if you value simplicity and good customer service, it’s totally worth it!

  33. That Girl From Quinn's House*

    Has anyone seen the commercial for Ashford University that’s running on Hulu, and is as annoyed by it as I am? It goes:

    Male Interviewer: This is international business, it’s very tough stuff.
    Female Candidate: [smugly]: That was my major.
    Female Interviewer: There are concerns about your readiness.
    Female Candidate: [spouts off a bunch of Business 101 textbook stuff about the secret inner workings of the company.]
    Male Interviewer: [looks at female interviewer significantly] When can you start?
    Female Candidate: [smugly] Monday.

    It drives me nuts. International business isn’t a job title! No one would bring someone in for an entry-level job just to insult them! Why would an entry-level candidate know a bunch of internal things the company is doing wrong, and also what company would be impressed by an entry-level candidate asking them to change their whole operations in an interview?

    It’s so gumption-y it drives me nuts, and even for a shady for profit college.

    1. Parenthetically*

      Oh my gosh I meant to come here and post exactly this! I’ve been dying to see if Alison would weigh in on it. Just ridiculous. So gumptiony, and not just that, but what on earth kind of interview includes “There are concerns about your readiness”?!

      1. valentine*

        This is just a candidate overcoming negging. It sounds like an internal interview and it’s why I hate classroom scenes in TV/movies. “And so Shakespeare was saying xyz.” *bell rings* Gumption would be if she Kool-Aid Man-busted into someone else’s interview and got the job.

        1. Parenthetically*

          It isn’t an internal interview, it’s an interview with a new grad from Ashford University (who the ad is for), insulting the interviewers and the company and being offered the job on the spot.

    2. Miss Astoria Platenclear*

      Cynically, the university might be purposely showing very unrealistic scenario to reel in naive people with little work experience who won’t realize they’re getting a a bad deal.

  34. Robin*

    My boss is defensive and insecure, and nothing I say is right.. you know the type? I find it so difficult to be around her. I need to spend four hours in the car with her next week. I am dreading it. It’s one thing to tell myself “stay positive, don’t let her get to you!” but FOUR HOURS IN THE CAR! How do I deal with this??

    1. Lena Clare*

      “Do you mind if we put the radio on and not converse? I can’t concentrate on driving unless I listen to (music/news/mindless silly ads/whatever). Thanks for understanding. I’d hate to arrive wiped out before we’d even started the work day!”

    3. No Tribble At All*

      Nooooooooo!

      You say “in the car” — are you just a passenger? Put in your headphones, claim you’re going to take a nap, and stay quiet.

    4. L. S. Cooper*

      Eat a lot of beans beforehand. Make her endure the bean toots for four hours.
      (Don’t do that.)

    5. Lovecraft Beauty*

      Headphones and fake napping, if you’re the passenger. If you’re driving, insist on controlling the radio and put on an audiobook, people tend to talk over those less.

    6. Ellen*

      You all are wonderful, thank you for the ideas! Yeah, it’s company culture to talk on these car trips, sadly. She is driving. Two hour trip each way (for a thirty min mtg…). Headphones wouldn’t fly, I feel sure, but I’m thinking audiobook or podcast could be good. Will arrived prepared!! Thanks again.

    7. Camellia*

      My boss is also defensive and insecure. I deal with it by simply letting her, nay, encouraging her, talk about herself. I do this in any situation, even our one-on-one meetings, because hey, she’s not much of a manager anyway so nothing much to say, and it makes her happy. And a happy boss leaves me alone and lets me do my work.

      And if I had to spend four hours in a car with her I would still do this. It would keep her ‘busy’ and ‘engaged’. If she slows down (talking, not driving), just start to say something about yourself, your family, a hobby, anything. It will spark a similar thought in her and then you just lean back and continue to let her talk. Make sure to nod or murmur something occasionally, to keep her going.

      1. Ellen*

        Camellia, thanks. I do like to employ this tactic and will remember it come car trip. The constant snippy snipes get old, don’t they? Le sigh.

        1. Argh!*

          The snipes may indicate that she’s not a people person & that it’s not about you. Do you think you could claim to have a headache or mild nausea and ask to sleep in the back seat? She might be relieved of not having to talk to you, too!

  35. Freelance Analyst*

    I’m seeking advice on successfully becoming self-employed doing analytical work.

    I’ve been in various analyst roles throughout my career, where I’ve done a lot in spreadsheets and databases, improved systems & processes to be more efficient or even automated, and also done a lot of research, created presentations, and written reports. After my most recent contract job ended, I got connected to a recruiter who specializes in my field, and he encouraged me to become self-employed because I’ve had so much instability in my career (8 jobs in as many years with several periods of unemployment, and I don’t really fit in the corporate world), and fortunately enough he connected with some entrepreneurs who are interested in working with me, starting next week.

    All that said, I’ve made some other attempts to do freelance work with mixed results, though in those instances it was just with 1 or 2 different people at a time, who hadn’t really worked with freelancers, whereas the entrepreneurs I’ll be working with are more established and have worked with other freelancers before.

    If any of you have experience doing analytical work on a freelance basis and/or working directly with other entrepreneurs and self-employed people, it would be great to get your input, particularly regarding unexpected challenges, frustrations, and the like.

    1. The Tin Man*

      I’m not much help to you, but I am very curious what/if anyone else has to say. It sounds like we have similar skill sets and I would like to break into being at least part-time freelance. The part of my job that engages me the most is improving and automating processes and reporting so everyone else can spend less time compiling and organizing data and more time doing value-add work!

    2. Phoenix Programmer*

      My experience with this is that it happens one of 2 ways for analysts.

      1 You built a website in 2010 that slowly gained traction and now you make $100k a year just teaching Excel tricks.

      2 You are a respected individual in the industry with big contacts. While you are between jobs a contact finds you and wants you to freelance for them. You make an LLC on Zoom and here you are 5 years later a full freelancer analyst.

    3. MintLavendar*

      You might try focusing on a niche; for instance, I could see services like these being really helpful for smaller companies and nonprofits, who often are starting to have enough data and systems that some automation would be beneficial, but aren’t quite rich enough to buy the off-the-shelf systems to handle that automation, if that makes sense? Like, organizations that do most of their stuff in Google Docs and Word and Excel but who have enough stuff that automating between them would be useful.

  36. MountainHire*

    I’m hoping I can get some advice, but part of me commenting is I just want to get this off my chest.

    I went to a conference out of town for work this week with my boss. We were got there a day prior to the conference starting so we had some time to hang out. We ended up going to lunch and doing some shopping. While we were out shopping, I had a seizure (Grand Mol). The paramedics had to be called and I had to go to the emergency room. My boss rode with me and stayed with me the whole time, even called my husband and booked him a flight out to take me back home. I didn’t go to the conference, instead came home with my husband and took a few days off. I came back to work yesterday after the doctor cleared me. I’ve never had a seizure before, and it was really scary. I don’t really remember what happened the day of my seizure or the day after. I’ve been pretty weepy at work, as well as just generally exhausted. Has anyone else experienced anything like this? How did you handle it? I feel ok today at work, especially since the weekend is tomorrow, but I’m worried about next week as I have 4 major events back to back (I’m an event coordinator) and I’m worried I might forget something due to the memory loss I’m experiencing or even having another seizure.

    1. NightQueen*

      I’m so sorry that happened to you! That must have been pretty scary. My mother (a fairly healthy middle-aged woman) had a seizure out of the blue last year. It came on differently than yours as she was in bed about to fall asleep, but same type. She was transported to the hospital and all, but they found nothing wrong. She was barred from driving for a few weeks. About six months later, she had another seizure under the same circumstances. This led to her being put on an anti-seizure medicine. She has no side effects from the medicine, but she did feel the grogginess you are feeling in the days after both seizures. I would definitely make an appointment with a neurologist to make sure everything is okay!

    2. Nanc*

      Yikes! Full disclosure: I haven’t had a grand mal seizure but my brother did 10 years ago and is doing fine now, but it took nearly a year before he felt like he was processing info the same way as before. They never did ID what caused it.
      I’m sure you’ve done everything I’m about to ask, but on the off chance, here goes:
      1. Has your doctor OKed you to return to work at full speed? While event coordination may seem easy and fun on the surface, it can be quite stressful and you may need to be on light duty for awhile. Which leads to:
      2. Can you step back from leading events and take on a support role for a couple of months? If you have 4 events in the next little while they must be close to being completely planned. If you can’t step back, is there an admin or intern who could also attend as an extra body to help keep details straight? Also, would it be possible to switch your hours or work from home so you have time to rest?
      3. Can you step away from stuff at home? Do you have someone who could help you take care of day-to-day things like laundry and dishes, grocery shopping, meal prep, etc., so you can have some extra down time to rest? If you can afford it, it might be worth it to hire a cleaner or send out the laundry for a month or so.
      4. If you’re on anti-seizure medication and you’re tired and weepy it could be a medical side-effect, let your doctor know. They may be able to put you on something else. On top of everything else, it might be worth getting some therapy to work through the stress and anxiety (as if you don’t have enough to do!)
      5. Don’t try to be your “normal” self. You had a big medical event and you’re going to have to figure out your new normal. Let your boss and colleagues know what you’re having trouble with (memory issues, etc.) and what you’re doing to compensate. Ask them for suggestions and help if you need it.

      Good luck with all of this. It’s scary and a lot to process but it sounds like you have a good boss. Take care of yourself and let us know how it goes.

      1. Aspiring Chicken Lady*

        All of those things.

        Hang in there. Ask for help … and accept it. It can be as stressful to deal medical unknowns as it is to deal with the medical stuff itself.

    3. Milly*

      Yes! I had my first seizure at 19 (car accident) and a handful more over the past decade. It’s super scary and really draining. Stress is a trigger for me. Prioritize getting enough sleep and hydrating/eating, especially since this is new. Good luck with the events and take care. I’ll be thinking about you!

    4. The Man, Becky Lynch*

      I’m so grateful that your boss handled this well, I was scared when I started reading it was going to swerve!

      This is a major medical “happening” and those take time to recover from. You will still need to have follow up doctor appointments to see if they can pinpoint what happened or if it’s a risk of happening again, etc. So try to be patient and kind with yourself. The exhaustion and worry is the normal response to this kind of thing.

      You still need to pace yourself and ask for help, you cannot jump right back into the deep end when you’re rebounding from a medical emergency!

    5. Isabekka*

      I’m sorry that happened to you MountainHire. My seizures started showing up when I was very young; about six I think. They were a frequent presence in my twenties and then less frequent in my thirties. Now at forty-six they haven’t been an issue for quite a while. Grand mal can feel very draining; it typically took me 1-3 days to recover and that was for seizures not requiring hospitalisation. For context I had what used to be called tonic/clonic seizures where I would loose consciousness and then crash straight to the floor foaming at the mouth. They must have been scary to witness. I sometimes did remember what happened but it took a while. You mentioned you felt exhausted, if you still do and you can afford to take more time off work then i’d do that. Beyond that try and it easy for while and don’t beat you yourself up.
      Much love, Isabekka

    6. KAG*

      Unfortunately, I have no “get back in the saddle” advice. I, too, had a grand mal seizure at work soon after I’d started a new job. I don’t believe I’d had one before, but given recent medical stuff, it was not entirely a surprise.

      I may or may not have gone back (I don’t remember), but I certainly did not remain employed there much longer (by mutual consent).

      So – basically no advice other than: figure out what’s wrong and work from there. If you have a good relationship with people there, and it sounds as though you do, they’ll likely be understanding and you won’t get a reputation blow-back, but also acknowledge that you might have to take a lot of time off to address the diagnosis / underlying cause.

      I guess what I’m trying to say is that only you have all the info on your situation, but just get ready to find out that all your options might suck, no matter how understanding your employer, insurer, family, etc.

    7. bunniferous*

      My daughter had adult onset epilepsy-she used to have the sort of seizures you describe (thankfully none for a long time though.) It is totally normal to be drained and wiped out. I also hope you are following up with a neurologist .

  37. Need a reality check*

    I’m on my first job out of college. It took me some time to finally land a job after graduating. I don’t have any other work experience, not even internship.

    My commute each day totals to 5 hours, 2.5 hours each trip (15 mins bus trip to the train station, 2 hours on the train, another 15 hours from station to the office). This is VERY normal. All my friends have the same commute. Most jobs are located in Big City, while most workers live in the surrounding small cities, like mine.

    I’ve only been in this job for around a month, and I’ve been sick twice already. My mother keeps asking me to quit because the toll it takes on me, but I don’t want to because of several reasons:
    1. I signed a contract stating that I’d stay in the job for a year, and if I quit before that, then there would be severe (financial) pinalty. My mother said that we could always consult my lawyer uncle, but I feel like this is another way for her to protect me from failure. All my life she’s been protecting me from failure and its consequences, and I don’t want her to do that now that I’m an adult.
    2. Quitting will be a big blow to my self-esteem, which is already in the rock bottom due to the long job search. I feel like the only thing I’m good at is being a student, which makes me feel like I’m still a child and not a freaking adult. I can’t keep running back to school every time I fail at adulting.
    3. Rough estimate puts the number of commuters to the Big City to almost 1 million people each day. If they can do it, why can’t I?

    Another option would be for me to rent a room in the Big City, but the CoL is so high the wouldn’t be any money left for me to save. I’m on an entry-level salary, and I have to help supporting my family, so I keep only 2/3 of the salary. If I rent, I’d have to pay for meals and laundry, which I don’t have to do if I stay at home. And frankly, the idea of renting makes me feel like I live to work and not the opposite.

    So, I don’t know, I guess I just need someone to tell me if this is normal and I just need to suck it up, or if this situation really is not sustainable.

      1. valentine*

        Consult a lawyer. At least then you’ll know if there’s a less painful third option.

        Really look into your demands on yourself. Don’t hate yourself for not being able to endure the inhumane five-plus daily hours of travel, complete with weird stop-and-go and boredom and carrying stuff and not having comforts. Your body begging you to stop isn’t failure, but, even if it were, you don’t deserve to pay for it in both health and money. Obey your body now before it shuts you down.

        I like the roommate ideas. Would two part-time jobs be more feasible? Anywhere with closer housing/jobs you can move to? Plan out what that would take. Is Mom’s help honest and no-strings? Is she just supportive and doesn’t throw things in your face? Sounds acceptable.

        1. Need a reality check*

          I’d love two part-time jobs, and I had applied for those jobs, but I never heard anything. I figure I’m in that weird place where I’m overqualified for retail jobs (where most part time jobs are) due to my degree, but under-qualified for office jobs due to my lack of experience.

          I believe in the bottom of her heart my mum thinks she’s helping me with the advice, but she only ever worked in retail and became SAHM the moment she married dad, so her workplace advice are wildly outdated (“No, mum, going to grad school isn’t going to make me a more attractive candidate, and no, as an entry-level candidate I can’t ask for mid-level salary”). She thinks I’m underpaid, but I’ve done my research and my salary is actually in the normal range for someone with my qualification (or lack of it).

    2. NotAPirate*

      I don’t think quitting sounds good. I think moving closer to work sounds worth considering more than quitting. Can you get a roommate or anything? I’ve had lovely luck renting out tiny apartments from older couples at below market rates. It’s worth poking around. Or is there anyplace to move to where you’re still commuting (so cheaper neighborhood) but the commute is only one train or such like? I find that wayyyy less stressful, just get on one bus and stay on it, rather than have to time transfers and move my stuff repeatedly. Regarding 3- don’t compare yourself to other commuters. What do you do during your commute? Would it feel less awful to watch netflix or listen to audiobooks or take up crocheting or find a friend who gets off at the same time and wants to text back and forth? Find something relaxing.

      1. Need a reality check*

        I actually enjoyed the commute, at least mentally. I should’ve specified this before, but I use the commuting time to catch up on my reading target for this year, so I actually feel productive and don’t consider the time wasted. Physically, though, the train is so packed I sometimes lose my footing, plus I almost always stand for the whole 4 hours trip, so it definitely takes a toll.

        When I started the job I’d done some cost comparison between commuting vs renting, and commuting cost significantly cheaper. Which is why I’m resistant to the idea. But I think it’s worth looking around, so thanks for your advice!

    3. Ali G*

      I think it depends. It isn’t out of the norm where I live either, but it wouldn’t be suitable for me! Everyone is different. Is the just the commute that is killing you, or is it the combo of commute, work, and sounds like tough times at home?
      Maybe make a list of what you need to be successful in this job and see what you can change to start getting you there. For example, if you can’t move, can you flex your schedule to shorten your commute, or WFH one day a week to give you some relief? I’m spitballing to give you some ideas.
      I think we all go through periods where we are struggling in one way or another. These are problems we need to solve for ourselves. It’s not easy, but I think you have head on straight – just put some effort into things you can change/control.

      1. Need a reality check*

        Thank you, especially the part about putting effort on things that I can actually control. It’s mainly the feeling that I’m trapped in a tug-of-war with me as the rope and my mum pulling in one direction and my office into the opposite direction.

    4. Hope*

      A 2.5 hour commute really *isn’t* that normal. Is there any way you could rent a room somewhere that’s only like, 30 minutes-1 hour from your job? That would be more sustainable, I bet, at least to get you through the length of your contract.

    5. Nicki Name*

      This is not normal, unless maybe you work in the SF Bay Area.

      This is not sustainable, regardless.

      Those other 999,999 commuters are not relevant. This is clearly not a good situation for *you*. That is all that matters here.

      The one-year contract with a severe penalty for early quitting sounds odd to me to, but maybe it’s normal in your industry.

      I get wanting to show that you’re a fully independent adult, but using the resources that are available to you when you have a desperate need for them is part of adulting too. Go ahead and talk to your uncle. And then, think about what a good job situation would be like for you. Is Big City the only place to go for people in your industry, or can you think about moving to a place with a less insane cost of living/commute time?

      That 1-million-commuter statistic doesn’t count all the people who’ve opted out! I work in tech, and tech in my city is full of people who’ve fled the SF area because they were trapped in situations like the one you’re describing.

      1. MsManager*

        I’ll just jump in and say I’m in the SF area and even here a 2.5 hour commute isn’t NORMAL. It’s not unheard of, but it’s definitely at the very long end of what people do. I bumped up from a 45 minute commute to about 1:15 earlier this year and am considering leaving my job because of it. Different people are affected differently, but I find 1:15 (so 2:30 for the day, half of OP’s) to be totally draining.

        OP, I would strongly strongly recommend moving closer to your job (even temporarily) and seeing how that affects you. You could event try to something more temporary depending how much time you have left (like a 3-month sublet, or even a long-term VRBO stay to spend a few weeks testing whether the commute is the real problem here) so you’re not committing to the change. It’s okay to NOT be one of the people who’s okay with 5 hours of commuting per day (to me, THAT is living to work and not working to live!), I have a feeling those who are “okay” with it are making serious trade offs or not being totally honest with themselves anyway.

      2. Need a reality check*

        Honestly, I’m in an industry that is only remotely connected to what I’m actually interested in. My current job is an admin/secretary job. I took it because I was desperate to get any job that’d pay me decent salary. My preferred industry is hard to break in, especially for someone with no internship experience and connection like me. I’ve sort of given up ever having a career in that industry.

        My small city is actually a great place to live. It’s the number one weekend destination for people from the Big City. It’s just that the employment opportunities are very limited.

        I’ll take another look on renting. And though it’s hard for me, I’ll try to talk to my uncle. Thank

    6. Mazzy*

      You have to support your family partially, but they want you to quit the job? And how do you not have to pay for meals if you’re gone from dawn to past dusk? And laundry is not a large enough expense to even be discussed when you’re considering a large life change. I think it’s time for a roommate. Yes, it will be tough, but everyone goes through that faze in their 20s. If you can afford to send a few bucks home, fine, if not, what is the other option? You have none. Your parents need to stop putting you between a rock and a hard place and should be happy you finally got a job.

      1. Lily Rowan*

        Yeah, I think your mother is giving you bad advice. If all the jobs are in the Big City, quitting won’t put you in a better position, right? Also, one job for less than a year doesn’t give you a much stronger resume than you had when looking for this job. I agree with the folks who suggest looking for a better living situation (maybe somewhat closer, maybe with roommates, etc.)

        Good luck and hang in there! That sounds like an awful commute.

      2. DreamingInPurple*

        Lots of folks bring their food from home; if the parents are paying for the groceries then the poster may be bringing all their food for the day and not spending money on it. It’s a little flippant to say that their family can just do without their income – we don’t know that – but if they do move out, their parents might be able to rent out the room they were using and allow them to keep the rest of their check to pay their own rent with.

        1. Mazzy*

          My comments are meant to help the OP. They’ve only been a working adult for a month so I doubt the family is truly dependent on that income. I also doubt they bring a full days worth of food from home every day, without refrigeration for a minimum of two and a half hours on the way in, unless all they eat is fruit and nuts. In other words these aren’t reasons not to move

          1. DreamingInPurple*

            I didn’t mean to imply otherwise. I agree with you, moving is a good idea if it’s possible. The food bit just gave me flashbacks to a period where I did bring my whole day’s worth of food with me in a little cooler bag.

      3. Need a reality check*

        What DreamingInPurple said. I bring my lunch and dinner from home, so I only very occasionally shell out money for meals. Dinner is mostly pb&j, which doesn’t have to be put in a fridge. Right now my family aren’t dependent on my income, which is why my mum wants me to quit, but in the foreseeable future it’s a strong possibility, so I need to start earning asap.

        I should’ve said this earlier, but when I started the job I did a cost comparison between commuting and renting, and commuting was significantly cheaper. I think I’ll do another comparison.

    7. Flat Penny*

      You have my sympathy. My longest commute has been ~2 hours each way, often standing up on the crowded subway the whole time, and it was hell at first. And I was well into my career, with shorter commutes under my belt–it was still hell! It’s totally normal for you to hate it.

      But it gets easier! There’s a chance it will get easier only very slowly, and there’s a small chance that you will decide that it doesn’t ever get easy enough (which is completely rational and understandable), but it does get easier.

      Try not to compare yourself to other people. If you were picking out the best skills/abilities a human could have, would “good at tolerating long commutes” really be something to put near the top? And just because they can handle it now doesn’t mean it wasn’t a struggle for them to adapt, too.

      Play around with how you spend your train-time. Podcasts? Audio books? Actual books? Sleeping? Can you sync your commute up with a friend sometimes? Go as early in the morning as you can, and find a coffee shop or gym to decompress before work? Experiment.

      Do everything else you can for your health in terms of diet/exercise/sleep. Just like kindergarten teachers eventually stop being so susceptible to germy kids all the time, it’s my unproven theory that train commuters are the same, and you’ll stop getting sick so frequently.

      Leaving school for a first job, especially when it’s a job-job, is like being thrown into the deep end. Don’t feel ashamed for finding it tough. Most of your peers were able to adjust gradually with part time jobs and internships and that makes it way easier. You’re working in Big City, and you’re helping to support your family! In terms of actual accomplishments you’ve got way more adult points that most people your age. And in terms of being able to not feel so stressed, you will catch up. <3

      1. Need a reality check*

        *internet hugs* Thank you, it’s really comforting to hear from someone who’s been through similar thing and survived. I should’ve said this in the original post, but mentally I don’t find the commute that draining. I’ve been able to start reading again and catch up on my reading goals for the year. It’s the physical toll of standing for 2 hours and being pushed around every time the train stops and people rush to get in. It may sound over-dramatic, but my friends and I have been legitimately worried that we’ll break a bone one of these days. We haven’t reached the Japan-level of needing to be pushed inside, but our situation is only very slightly better. Sometimes I have to stand on my toes because there’s no space left.

        I actually know C-suites who take the same commute, and it’s partly the reason why I feel like a wimp if I can’t survive the commute. I mean, if these people with way more money than me still take the train, what rights do I have as the lowest person in the office totem pole to complain?

        Extra thank you for your last paragraph! That’s a very kind reminder, and I really need to hear it.

    8. Zeldalaw*

      Not normal for me, but I don’t live near a big city and I know that brings very different commuting issues. One thing I wanted to mention is whether getting sick could just be a function of being in a new environment with a bunch of new people. I know I often have gotten sick a lot when I’ve started new jobs, so that might be part of it that could get better once you get acclimated. That’s especially true since you’re not only with a bunch of new people (and new germs!), but also likely stressed and tired with all of the changes.

      1. Mazzy*

        Oh this is a good point. When I moved from the country to the city for the first time, I got maybe five colds in six months. I was almost never sick after that

    9. Liza*

      Firstly, do not feel bad about struggling. That sounds like a horrendous commute and I (and doubtless many others) could not handle that in a million years.

      1. Regarding the contract issue. Even if you choose not to quit right now, you should absolutely consult your uncle, or any other lawyer who knows about these things, because that contract thing sounds bizarre. Asking these kinds of questions of people is by no means a Failure to Adult – it’s actually the perfect example of adulting. It’s about using all your available resources to accurately assess all your options. This isn’t mom protecting you from failure, it’s her looking out for you to make sure your employer isn’t about to pull a fast one.

      2. I feel for you on the self esteem thing. I had been out of work for several years when I went back to school, and then it took another year after I got my postgrad for me to finally land a job. It does wear you down. It sounds like you’re stuck between a rock and a hard place, and all you can do is assess which one is more damaging to your wellbeing right now? The commute or the prospective job hunt? Only you can answer that, and you might feel that changes over time.

      3. I’ll be very honest, I have absolutely no idea how those 1 million people do it.
      I know I couldn’t. If you want to try and adjust, all I can suggest is that you do all you can to make that 2 hours on the train feel like down time: take hobby projects with you, listen to music, relax, and don’t think about work or chores. Use it to chill completely. You may find it gets easier, or you may not. Just because 1 million people do it doesn’t mean it’s possible for anyone. Human beings are all individuals. Some can take a long commute in their stride and use the time to relax. Others have an upper limit of 30 minutes and no amount of money or prestige is going to persuade them to sit in traffic for an hour or more. Just because x number of people can handle it, doesn’t mean you automatically can, too.

      There is no definitive answer to your question, I’m afraid. All you can do is assess your situation and how it affects you over time and weigh it against other options. Being unemployed sucks, but it sounds like you are fortunate enough to live with family with minimal bills. That means you have the luxury of being a bit pickier when it comes to work. Would it be worth continuing to investigate local options? They may be less abundant, but it’s worth keeping an ear to the ground. What is it about this Big City job that makes it worth the commute? Is it the money? Is it a foot in the door into your desired field? Is it a nice white collar job in an office with air conditioning as opposed to flipping burgers? These are all important questions to ask yourself, and without judgement.

      From there, you can ask yourself: what elements of that job would you be willing to trade to solve the commute issue? For instance, working retail in Small City for less money, but commuting by bus for half an hour – would that be better or worse?

      Also ask yourself, how does this all fit with your long term plans? You mentioned that saving is a priority for you, so think about what your goals are for that savings pot, and what you actually need to get there. How long are you willing to stick this job out for? What’s the pay off you see at the end? Do you WANT to move to Big City eventually? Or would you rather go elsewhere? There may be places where the cost of living is lower but jobs in your field are more abundant.

      It’s really easy to get bogged down in present circumstances and think “I must do this because it is my only option!! I just have to suck it up because I’m a grown up!!” I was exactly the same when I was young, also because of over protective parents, and it takes a while to get the balance right. Sometimes being a grown up is about recognising your limits and asking for help.

      1. Need a reality check*

        Thank you – your comment is really kind and thoughtful, and helpful too! Honestly the only reason I took the job was because it was the only place that offered. I’d interviewed in 3 other places, applied to more than 100, so when this job called me I said yes right away. It’s not my desired job, not in my desired field. At this point my only thought is to earn money. I’ve stopped thinking about having any career or long term plans at all – I’d be lucky if I have a job. I definitely don’t want to move to Big City. The reason why there are 1 million people commuting every day is because many people have fled Big City due to its high CoL.

        Those are questions that I need to really ask myself, so thanks again!

    10. Policy Wonk*

      A month isn’t a very long time, and given your description of your commute, it’s not surprising you’ve been sick twice – lots of exposure to new and different germs on public transportation. Lots of other commenters have already given you sound advice – looking for a roommate or group-house situation, for example. And you could go home on weekends to do laundry and have mom pack you some of her home-cooking. Doing the five hour commute once on the weekend might be more manageable.

      You need to give yourself time to adapt to the new situation. Address what you can, but give yourself some interim goals to get you to that complete year. I will do x by month 3, y by month 6. And give yourself rewards for accomplishing those goals.

    11. EH*

      When I had a longish (~1.5 hrs each way) commute on public transit, I was hourly, and talked my manager into letting me do billable hours on the train. I had pretty portable work, though, and this was a common thing at the company (working on the train, I mean), so I don’t know if this is doable for you, but it made the job possible for me. I was getting increasingly destroyed by the super-long days that doing a full 8.5 hr day on top of 3 hr of commute. 6.5 hr plus 3 hr commuting was much more doable. Also, it helped me cope with the stupid commute by keeping busy.

    12. UKApplePie*

      I live in London, on a entry level salary so I feel this keenly. I could have lived at home – but it was a 2.5hour commute one way, involving walking, trains (bit guaranteed a seat) and the tube (at rush hour, definitely not guaranteed a seat). I did that for a month – my Dad did it for 10+ years.

      It. Was. Intolerable. I speedily moved to London (obviously renting a room in a house, not by myself) and have very little money, but my life is much much better (physical and mental health), and I’m able to perform better at work. If you can cook (or learn!), the food isn’t that expensive. I’m viewing this as a stepping stone to a better life. The transition from student to working adult is hard – I was also a much better student than I am a young employee. It sounds like your mum is a good egg, so maybe she will understand that you aren’t able to financially support them anymore/until you get pay rise? Could you wfh once a week? I wouldn’t quit – this year of experience will be so important for future jobs, particularly if you don’t have a lot of other experience. Hope it improves a bit for you :)

    13. blink14*

      This commute time is very common for people in the outer NYC metro area (not saying it’s where you are, but I have experience with it). Commuting by train is often 2-2.5 hours, including travel time to train. Commute by bus is about 1.5 hours, but less predictable with traffic.

      Have you looked at alternative modes of transportation or different routes? For instance, getting to a train station further down the line may actually save you time, or taking the bus + a train or another bus might shave off time. Do you have any friends living in the city who you could maybe crash with a couple of times a month or even once a week?

      In terms of getting sick – it makes a lot of sense to me. You’re on a major form of public transit, twice a day, when you probably weren’t before and then add in the stress of your new job and the commute time.

      I think you need to stick it out for 6 months, and it’s going to take adjustment. Any full time job is going to take adjustment. Once you put in those 6 months, start looking for something else if it’s truly unbearable.

      Also, let your uncle look at your contract. Don’t be stubborn and refuse help because you want to be an adult. Adults ask for help when they need it.

    14. The Man, Becky Lynch*

      First off, please learn to never compare yourself to the “millions” out there that can “hack it’ while you’re struggling.

      Millions also manage to live in poverty as well, so you’re not going to go deal with the fact you’re hungry because others have been doing it, are you? Please understand that not everyone is the same and everyone has different bodies that need different things and survive differently. So if you’re exhausted and diminished so much from the commute, you’re probably catching the sickness from being on packed commuter trains with people who are struggling as well, they’re going to work sick AF and spreading it because they do it to live and pay their bills, not just because “They’re able to handle the commute” better!

      It’s only been a month, that’s a short time to try something before you know it really isn’t sufficient for you. You may be sick frequently because of the stress your body was under for looking for work and finally “slowing down’ for that minute after the relief you felt from getting hired on! It’s a thing, I swear.

      You do not fail at aduling, many of us have to figure out how the world works once we’re out of school. You will fail at things over the course of life but no one failure ever defines you or your ability to take care of yourself or assist your family.

      I have a feeling that contract is because they gave you a signing bonus. That’s typical for places that offer it, they require you to commit to X amount of time or else you have to pay it back. It’s because why would they offer an incentive without a string attached, it wouldn’t benefit them at all that way, they’d get taken advantage of constantly!

      If you can move away from your parents home, with roommates or even just to remove that 15 minute bus ride, that’s 30 minutes a day you save and can spend relaxing in your home to re-energize. That will help you feel more independent and get you from your mother’s meddlesome ways. Your mom loves you and wants to protect you, she’s a mom. So try not to think of it as her trying to keep you a baby or coddle you and refuse to let you be an adult. You do have to fight and push against her desire to swaddle you up and get you out of any given issue that pops up, it’s hard but you can do it.

    15. Bagpuss*

      If you are only keeping 2/3 of your salary you *are* paying for meals etc now.
      You might need to look at the costs of house-shares etc and determine what proportion of your income you can afford to give your family- as you are just starting out you probably don’t have a lot of disposable income so may well not be able to give as big a proportion of your income as you are doing.
      I don’t think your mum’s advice is great .
      The first month or so in a new job is exhausting as you are learning so much, in most cases it does start to get easier as you start to find your feet, so give it a little bit longer before you decide if it’s sustainable for you

    16. Not One of the Bronte Sisters*

      Here is my suggestion. I suggest that you find a way to stay overnight in Big City on Monday and Thursday nights, for example. I would suggest finding a bed in a hostel rather than a hotel room. You can read the reviews on any of the hostel websites, like hostels.com. You should also consider AirBNB, if it exists in Big City. These alternatives will save you the time and the expense of the commute several times a week. You can eat rather cheaply if you don’t eat in restaurants. Many hostels have kitchens where guests can prepare or at least refrigerate or microwave food. If you stayed in a place that had a kitchen, could your mother prepare you some take-away or reheatable meals? I think the commute is killing you. Good luck!

  38. RoseGrows*

    My manager seems to see his direct reports as one unit. I am frequently blamed for mistakes that were made when I wasn’t on the job. I don’t mind owning my mistakes, but about 65-75 percent of the things I get blamed for, I had nothing to do with. When possible, I have been pointing out that I wasn’t there. Sometimes it makes a difference in the moment and sometimes it doesn’t, but overall I feel like we are all conflated in his mind. Since I truly make fewer mistakes than my coworkers, I am getting the short end of the stick on that deal.

    He also frequently tells one of us information and expects it to just get dispersed through the group. (The group does not see each other every day.) Sometimes information doesn’t reach me and it impacts my product. I’ve tried pointing out that I wasn’t told certain things but I think he honestly forgets who he has talked to and who he hasn’t. Sometimes he accepts the explanation and sometimes he just gets annoyed. (He does usually ask for an explanation, I’m not just standing there making excuses when all he wants is a fix.)

    When I mess up, I absolutely own it. So he is not receiving a constant “not my fault” answer from me. But when I wasn’t a part of it, I am often confused and have to first determine the problem and then point out that I wasn’t there and therefore can’t offer an explanation. He often gets annoyed at that. Rarely, I don’t even catch that I wasn’t involved in that portion of the project until later, so I just take the blame, even if I’m confused about the problem. My confusion shows- so I think then it looks like I don’t understand how to do the job.

    The real issue is this: I think my managers perception of me has gone down, not primarily because of things I’ve done, but because I get grouped in on mistakes that weren’t mine. I’m afraid it has started to have a real impact on my job and possibly on my career.

    Can I do anything to make this better?

    1. Zephy*

      1. Do your coworkers also see this behavior from your boss?

      2. Can you, as a group, approach your boss with your concerns? There’s clearly room to improve communication between your boss and his direct reports; it would probably be more impactful if you could all sit down together to devise a better system and make sure you’re all on the same page. That’s how I would approach it – you can’t make him care about all of you as individuals, but you can figure out a better way for him to communicate with the whole group, if he insists on treating you all like a monolith. It could be as simple as setting up a team email quickstep or mailing list in Outlook, so he can email everybody all at once. Or setting up a team Slack/Discord channel.

      1. valentine*

        This is unsustainable.

        ~Stop taking the blame.
        ~Start an email group to distribute the crap he spews.
        ~Job-search.

        1. RoseGrows*

          Job search was the only solution I could think of, honestly. I do like my job except for this, though, and changing jobs would probably require a move, so I want to try everything I can first. But, at this point I am quite worried about the impact on my reputation, and I don’t want that to get out of hand.

      2. RoseGrows*

        Thank you for your help!
        1. Oh yes, it happens to everyone sometimes. He’s not singling me out.
        2. We’re a small group, and a portion is on long-term assignment right now and will only sporadically report to him for the next several months. It doesn’t make sense to approach as a group right now. And the information is often project-specific, so it’s most often a problem when I take over a project from someone and all the little details and changes just don’t get passed along. (Switching projects due to scheduling is super common- which also might be part of the problem overall.)
        And, as I think about it now I realize, part of the problem is just that he changes his mind a lot, so it’s not often solid edicts. Due to that, a lot of the information becomes both project and somewhat time-specific. Maybe having everything in writing would help, though. I’m going to think about how to make communication better but that last point is a serious barrier.

    2. Argh!*

      Your boss sucks. Some bosses will “instruct” an entire work group when one person messes up because they are afraid of uncomfortable one-on-one conversations.

      re: information not getting to everyone, you can start by yourself by asking if it’s okay to send an email about something to everyone, and then hope that others decide to do the same. Option 2 is to have an uncomfortable one-on-one conversation about this. Remember that this is not about you and that the boss should care about things getting done. He probably just has poor communication skills or a habit of fuzzy thinking. Option 3 is to have this same conversation but include some coworkers who have similarly been impacted. “Thanks for meeting with us. We wanted to meet because it seems like information doesn’t get to everyone who needs it, and we want to let you know that we’ve noticed it’s a pattern, not a one-off. Is there something we can do as a group to be sure everyone is on the same page?” Something as simple as a shared google drive might be all you need.

      Good luck & please post an update!

      1. RoseGrows*

        Thank you!
        I’ve had bosses who did the “instruct everyone” thing. It was annoying, but at least I could understand that they just hated confrontation.
        This one is different and much more frustrating because he is doing it one-on-one. Sometimes I think he just blames whoever is closest to him at the moment instead of contacting whoever did the work. Or maybe he blames whoever worked on the project last. Or whoever wore the ugliest shirt that day. (He definitely knows who did the work- our names are literally written on everything we do.) Honestly, I can’t even find a pattern for that, so I’m just baffled.

  39. Em*

    If you know that your workplace is toxic came and you’re searching for other jobs, what’s the best way to prevent the toxic job from affecting your view of workplace norms? I’m talking the CEO telling you you’re doing a great job and then the next day screaming about how awful you are so that the whole building can hear it.

    2. Zephy*

      Knowing you’re working at Evil Bees, Inc. is half the battle. Naming the abusive and toxic behaviors that you’re subjected to helps. I’ve seen people recommend mentally adding “you think” before whatever abusive vitriol comes out of the Evil Beehive, to remind yourself that it isn’t true and mentally distance yourself from it. Reading blogs like AAM and checking in with the commentariat can also help give you a reality check for what is and isn’t normal.

    4. Argh!*

      I needed time away from LastToxicJob to have some introspection, therapy, and relaxation to destress in order to make a good impression to land CurrentToxicJob. (and I had PTSD nightmares for about five years afterward!) Now I’m applying for jobs and had an interview recently where the potential grandboss asked “How do you handle constructive criticism?” and I laughed. I don’t get constructive criticism here. I get nitpicks and insults and comparisons to my cousin Sheila. I tried to recover for an answer, but I realized reporting to a pedantic schoolmarm with a grudge against me has had an effect on my interactions with others.

      Plan B is to ask for a transfer to another unit. I am even willing to grant my therapist permission to share her notes about me with HR in order to justify getting away from ToxicBoss. I may stay in that other unit indefinitely (which would be an improvement) or just until I can find another job in my specialty. Either way, I need time away from ToxicBoss in order to recover from ToxicBoss in order to work well with NextBoss.

      I plan to enact Plan B after a few more conversations about this with my therapist.

    5. The Man, Becky Lynch*

      Oh…you seem to be working for my former despicable boss. Literally “We love you and want you here forever and ever and take over the company and let us retire into the sunset and just collect paychecks we loooooooove you.” to “If you ever step out of line again and look at us with ‘those’ eyeballs again we will fire yoooooooou!’

      You have to remind yourself, constantly and forever that that CEO is a horrible evil person and doesn’t get to dictate how everyone and every other workplace is.

      Then remind yourself as you move on to always check yourself. It will take awhile for you after you’re out of the situation to bounce back and become less scared of the new boss from turning all crazypants on you. It took me a year to be honest.

      It’s all about keeping control of your mind and re-reminding yourself constantly that “This isn’t normal. This isn’t normal. This person is a monster, people are not regularly monsters.”

  40. Mrs. Krabappel*

    High school teacher here with a question about interviewing norms. My school is hiring for a specific department. A job candidate emailed every member of that department asking for specific information about who to contact, could they ask us some questions etc. None of the people contacted knows this candidate nor has any known connection to the candidate. It struck all of them as aggressive and inappropriate for a job candidate to do this, So I thought I’d ask the wonderful commentariat here. Is that an acceptable practice in the business world, or is it seen as too aggressive? What, if anything, would you do about it?

    1. Save One Day at a Time*

      No, that’s not considered standard practice. And you don’t need to do anything about it. If you want, you can say something short like “oh, as you know this is a busy time of year for all of us, so I don’t have that time right now, but I’m sure if HR isn’t able to answer your questions you’ll have a chance to get to them in your interview.”

      If it turns you off so much you don’t think they’d be a good fit, you can briefly mention that it happened to your principal or AP.

    3. Middle School Teacher*

      That’s not even acceptable practice for a SCHOOL. Unless you’re a single independent school (private or charter for example) the hiring and interviewing would be done by the board, who would assign the teacher to the school.

      1. Luisa*

        Or at the very least, it would be handled by an interview committee/panel, which would hopefully include at least one teacher from a relevant subject area, but would (presumably) not include every teacher from that department.

        LOL I can picture having a discussion with the weakest link in my department about why we should not campaign for the hiring of someone who, absent any other knowledge about them as a candidate, did this kind of thing…

      2. just a random teacher*

        Emailing around to various school people looking for the scoop on a job is not a thing here either (I have never had a job candidate email me, a random teacher at the school, for information about a job at that school), but in my state hiring is generally done by the school principal rather than the school board. The board/district office/HR/general district bureaucracy has final approval over hires, but my actual interviews have generally been done by the principal, sometimes with other teachers, staff, and, rarely, students on the interview panel. One very small district hiring for a multi-school position within the district had the superintendent do the interview instead, but I think that’s because the position was split between schools and he was the next layer up. This is probably one of those things that varies by location.

    4. Akcipitrokulo*

      Nope. Not normal.

      If they are otherwise good, it might be worth giving them the benefit of the doubt that they may just have been given some really, really bad advice from a careers centre or parent/other older relative… but no. It’s not good.

  41. Virginia Plain*

    I just handed in m final assignment for my MLIS (yeah, I know…) and I’m already stressed about the job search. So, I’m looking for a bit of advice!!

    I’m applying for an internship in an academic library and I feel really stuck regarding what to say in my cover letter. We’re supposed to write about our “career goals” and express interest in academic librarianship. It’s made me realize that I have NO career goals beyond “get a job in a library,” because of how dismal the job market is. How on earth am I supposed to articulate a reasonable/good sounding job goal when… my goal is to just get A job in the field. Obviously I have to write something compelling, but geez… where do I begin?

    Also, I’ve never worked in an academic library before (my experience is in school libraries), I think working in academic libraries would be lovely… but I also kind of counted that experience out. I never thought that academic libraries would take any of the work I do in a school library seriously, but I enjoy bibliographic services/cataloging/etc. in particular and it appears as though there are more opportunities for those positions in academic libraries, in general. Maybe I have no business applying for this internship because of my lack of academic library experience? Wouldn’t they think that if I wanted to work in academic libraries I would have gotten a position at the university library where I went to school? Instead of staying in my job at the school library? Gah. I haven’t even been finished for a week and I’m already in a tizzy!!

    1. Tomato Frog*

      If an academic library is advertising for an internship, and don’t say they want experience (and they shouldn’t require that, if it’s an internship!), they are quite likely looking for: enthusiasm, education, an interest in launching a career in the field, and — seriously, SERIOUSLY — that you actually read the position description and are interested in having the job they are hiring for.

      I’m hiring for an entry-level residency right now in an academic library, and we’ve been kind of put off by the number of applications that treat the position as a regular professional gig and just rattle off job qualifications when the position announcement is pretty clear that we’re advertising this as a learning opportunity where you could expand your skills. We want to know that applicants can do the job, but more than that we want to know that they’re keen to make the most of the opportunity presented to launch a career.

      I think you’re psyching yourself out with this job-market-is-awful, “I just want a job” stuff. You DO have interests in specific aspects of the field (cataloging, etc.), so you can talk about what appeals to you about those and how your career goal is to do that sort of work. Or if the internship focuses on other areas of librarianship, identify the aspects of the work that you think you would do best at or want to learn the most about and drill down on those. What skills do you want to develop so you’ll be competitive for the kind of job you want in the future? Then you can connect those areas of interest to transferable skills from the jobs you have had, so they know you can do the work.

      1. Virginia Plain*

        Thanks for the advice! I feel a bit better now!!

        I do have a question, the posting for the residency (well, residencies) is for 3 positions and each position is with a different department and are different from each other. Do I specify which position I’d be particularly interested in (best suited for) or should my cover letter be for ALL positions? I’m also confused by that.

        1. Tomato Frog*

          That’s tricky! I take it the applications all get submitted the same way, to the same place? If the position description breaks out each internship in detail — like each different internship has its own section in the posting — I would think you should write your cover letter targeting one internship. If there’s one big description for all internships, listing overall qualifications, and then just quick mentions of the different departments, it might make more sense to do a more general cover letter (but still being specific about what you’re interested in and good at!). This is just my best guess, though! Grain of salt.

    2. Canonical23*

      Everyone needs a job in Library Science, but if you’re not throwing out applications to every single job and then some, there’s a reason why you’re /drawn/ to specific postings. Why does this job feel like a good option for you? Career goals aren’t necessarily “what do you plan to do from now until you are 65?” they’re “how does this position fit in your life’s path?” Write about what you want to accomplish in a career – that’s your goal – and how you can accomplish that in this specific academic library.

      Hope this helps! I got my MLS last year and it’s an interesting job market out there for sure.

    3. Yarrow*

      Former public librarian/current law librarian here:

      A) Your cover letter is a marketing document and your goals don’t have to be perfect, real, or forever. Look at the description for the type of work you’d be expected to do (or find some old job postings for entry-level academic jobs) and use that info to mention a couple of things that appeal to you about the work or that you’d like to learn about.

      B) Think of how your school library experiences might impact working in an academic library and mention it. You can say something like “my experiences in this type of job have led me to be interesting in x thing about academic libraries” or “I’ve learned X in school libraries and I look forward to expanding my knowledge with Y.”

      C) Most librarians have worked in different types of libraries throughout their careers. They understand that subfields are different but there are commonalities like educating users about electronic resources, using catalogs, managing databases, instruction, reference help, etc.

    4. Tafadhali*

      I just want to echo that there are a lot of transferable skills and that it is very normal to work in different types of libraries during your career! As a solo school librarian, I’ve found that I have to do a bit of everything, so although cataloging (e.g.) may not be as all-consuming a part of my job as it would be if I worked in a cataloging role in a university, I would still have things I could highlight if I were looking for a role elsewhere. And, of course, if it’s an internship, they are likely not expecting you to come in an expert!

    5. magnusarchivist*

      I work in an academic library & can confirm internships are for learning, so don’t feel like you aren’t qualified! I have (not at this job but at others) turned down applicants who clearly wouldn’t learn anything from the internship. Like candidate A has 6 months experience working with our specific OPAC, but B doesn’t so this internship would clearly be of more benefit to them.

      But also — hiring managers know how bad the job market is and so assume everyone is just desperately trying to get a foot in a door. Any door. So concentrate on letting your personality and interests come through in the cover letter. And if there’s any skill you have that would make your manager’s job easier, definitely mention that. Like if you’re great at customer service and de-escalating complaints, say that! Or if you enjoy cataloging (you glorious weirdo), you’ll be a much more attractive candidate than someone who just took a required class in it.

    6. Marian*

      Academic librarian here, although I don’t hire our interns or do cataloging/technical services work

      If you’ve just finished your MLIS, and you have any library experience at all, you’re doing okay; no need to panic. And cataloging translates across levels more easily than reference; RDA is RDA.

      One way to connect school libraries to academic libraries is to talk about cataloging “special formats” – did you need to figure out how to circulate items like puppets or kits or other non-book items? That’s helpful knowledge that translates to all kinds of useful quirks in an academic library, like maps and special collections.

      Good luck!

  42. AnonAdminToday*

    For anyone who doesn’t know, this coming Wednesday is Admin Professionals Day. I used to be an admin in my office and have moved to a managerial role that is not directly admin related. I’ve been invited to the admin lunch on Wednesday and I’ve accepted, but I think this is the last time I’ll go. The admin group is a mess – we have 5 open positions right now, one just got let go and another is planning a ridiculously weird transfer, and the whole place confuses me. It used to be you learned the job over years, and now its 3 months and you’re gone for not understanding processes with a yearly cycle. We’re never going to attract quality staff with the low pay we offer admin and the lack of training we give, and the succession planning for our older admin is nonexistent. I’m not sure how I’ll keep my mouth shut at the blatant hypocrisy in the lunch, but I’m getting so sick of this revolving door of poor choices resulting in staff turnover and old guard admin pouting about new staff not knowing things. We’ve had 4 office managers in 8 years, and the only good one was forced out by head partner because she questioned the status quo. Trying to maintain my good relationship with some of them, be kind to the ones I barely know, and stay out of the politics when some of the choices are so very very odd…makes me tired just thinking about it. Ugh. /rant

  43. Mimmy*

    Not looking to solve this, just looking for perspective —

    I had an interesting conversation with my supervisor, Penny, yesterday. She sometimes vents a bit to me about our director–I know that’s another can of worms, but she and I have a close relationship.

    Anyway…she’s finding that instructors, myself included, complain to her about how our schedule is created; she then advocates on our behalf. Then, when the director asks us directly if we have any issues about the schedule during our morning meetings, we don’t say anything. So then Penny looks like the complainer. I suggested that everyone wants to seem like team players, because that’s what the director is always touting–“we work as a team!”.

    I was just curious if this is a common scenario? I’ll admit that I too am afraid to “rock the boat”, but I feel bad that Penny is being misperceived as not being a team player because we’re all afraid to speak up.

      1. valentine*

        You’re making her look like Chicken Little, a liar, or a power grabber. Treat it like an honest question. If he retaliates, deal with that. Until then, complete the circle and support Penny’s supporting you. Lead by example and speak up. Others will follow.

    2. S-Mart*

      It’s certainly not uncommon, but it’s a great way to get Penny to stop advocating for you.

      Working as a team does not mean never having complaints, as long as you can do it politely.

    3. Kathenus*

      Intentional or not you’re putting Penny in a bad position. You’re asking her to advocate for you, she’s being a supportive manager and doing so. Then when the director asks you (meaning the global ‘you’), Penny is left hanging because no one is willing to give honest information. It’s not complaining if you professionally communicate concerns with scheduling – such as ‘the schedule comes out so late that it’s hard to plan’, or ‘there seems to be inequity in how holidays are staffed’, or whatever. Sure, if you’re saying ‘we hate the schedule, it’s not fair’ or something else more whiny or not actionable, that’s not good.

      But you’re never going to get what you are looking for by giving one message to Penny and then another to the director when she is trying to be a good director and delving into peoples’ concerns. And as S-Mart says, you’re going to lose the support of Penny, and you could be hurting her in the eyes of the director. Thanks for asking this question, it sounds like you have a good intention but the way you are all going about this is, in my opinion, counter-productive to what you’re trying to achieve and unfair to Penny.

    4. The Tin Man*

      I feel like it’s pretty common for big boss to ask everyone if there are any problems and hearing crickets back, then middleboss hearing from people one-on-one about their actual thoughts.

      Does the director have a history of lashing out at people who speak up, or do people remain silent because they want to be seen as a team player? I know if I were the director I would do some introspective work if I ask my team if there are any problems and hear nothing, only to later learn that there were issues. That sounds like an environment where people do not feel safe being open about problems.

      Is part of it an issue that he asks the whole group and everyone thinks “I don’t want to hold up the whole group with my specific issue with the schedule, I’ll just talk to Penny after”? I could see myself doing that.

    5. Elaine*

      I’ve been in Penny’s situation. My whole team was complaining about something (validly) and I addressed it with my boss. The entire team – and I mean the ENTIRE team – denied that there was a problem. OK. You have a problem with how things are done, you’re on your own now for that kind of thing. Except that wasn’t the end of it. I was dinged on my next performance review for “trying to stir up trouble where there was none,” it negatively impacted my future performance raises, and I was permanently seen by some above me as a troublemaker. This was in spite of the fact I had previously been considered a strong performer for the past 12 years, and I was professional and low-key in bringing up the team’s issue. I finally left a couple of years later.

      Please, please don’t raise concerns and then deny everything when push comes to shove because you’re afraid to rock the boat. It would be better not to say anything to your supervisor if you’re going to let her hang when she tries to help you.

    6. Sleepytime Tea*

      You guys are doing her a serious disservice here. She is trying to be a good boss by taking your concerns up the chain and making things better for you, but then when your director asks you about it, to just confirm what is going on and ostensibly to talk about a solution, you all refuse to say anything? Why would you put her in that position? How do you expect her to want to go to bat for you on anything if you back down on it the second it comes up? If I were her I’d be extremely frustrated to be thrown to the wolves like that, when I was trying to do right by my team.

      Is this common? I would say it’s kind of common when it comes to a group of co-workers where one person decides to be the spokesperson and then everyone else shrinks down in their seats, but I have NEVER seen this happen when it was the team’s supervisor that spoke up for them and then had their entire team abandon them.

      If you’re going to do that, don’t complain to her about anything ever again. It is just so, so wrong of you to complain and want something to be done about it, have her go to bat for you like a good boss should, and then have you leave her hanging. There are SO many people here complaining about terrible bosses that never do anything to try and fix things for them, and here you have someone who cares about their team and tries to solve the problems, and you hang her out to dry. I’m sorry, but that’s terrible.

    7. CM*

      It’s not awesome if the director is tossing the question back at you in an intimidating way (that can be a deliberate strategy to get this kind of reaction and undermine your boss), but your boss is trying to be a good teammate to you by escalating this to him and if he’s being a dick about it or trying to make you too nervous to criticize you need to stand together. It doesn’t work if she speaks up and you guys act like she’s lying.

  44. El Caminope*

    My workplace is a dumpster fire of people leaving left and right, and it is likely that we are being acquired. In less than 2 years I went from a department of 4 to just myself as of last week when my supervisor quit, and she and I briefly discussed her job duties but our roles were parallel, so we worked alongside each other but w/ very different responsibilities. The conversation I had with our director and HR made it clear that I was not taking over my supervisor’s role (I had already absorbed another person’s duties when our dept went from 4 to 2 people) and that many of her tasks would either be shifted elsewhere or stopped altogether (with the pending merger this made sense).

    However, I don’t think this has been clearly communicated with staff, who assume I am taking over my supervisor’s role entirely and are bombarding me with calls and emails. I am doing my best to be responsive and say “I’m not sure but let me find out!” and following up, and also knowing “this should go to ___” and asking for help when I’m stuck. But I’m finding that people are not particularly helpful and are putting it all back on me when I have no experience or training for my supervisor’s role – not to mention I have not been able to focus on my own deadline-heavy work because of all these interruptions. I’ve also been tasked with running a large project that intimidates me because of all the moving parts involved and how much can fall through the cracks when only one person is handling everything, and with no support I feel like I’m drowning.

    I am actively job searching and interviewing (have a third round interview next week at a dream job!) but I don’t know how to handle the stress of all of this in the meantime. The acquisition, the expectation that I will now do the job of FOUR people with no assistance, the fear that it will all be meaningless if I am let go during the acquisition anyway, etc.

    Guess I’m just venting here. I try my best to be helpful, responsive, and professional even when I feel the stress getting to me but the frustration-tears are getting more frequent and I need a better coping mechanism (and a better job, but that’s a work in progress). And I find myself losing patience with people who refuse to be helpful or patient with me (the culture here has been toxic – no one trusts each other, a lot of good people have left and many disgruntled ones remain), but I don’t want my reputation or professionalism at this place to suffer because of that.

    And commiseration or advice?

    1. E*

      Instead of trying to be responsive to the bombardment of requests, I’d check with HR and see if you should refer requestors to HR or if HR will be communicating to everyone the temporary procedure in place (that should include not bothering you about x, y, z). You and HR may be on the same page, but if everyone else doesn’t know who is (and isn’t) handling supervisor’s duties, they won’t stop.

    2. Frankie*

      I’d flag this for your director and ask who should be taking on these tasks. Have examples of emails or requests, and maybe you can say “I know we said I’m not filling my supervisor’s role, so who would take this on?” Give them some awareness of how many of these requests you’re getting and ask specifically how they should be routed/addressed. And if there’s someone who is insisting you do things for them even after you’ve declined, maybe make that clear to the director as well.

  45. Lonesome*

    I started a new job a year ago. I joined a two-person department (so three with me) because they were overburdened. Previously, it was just my boss and my colleague Jane. Now, I report to my boss and so does Jane. Jane doesn’t report to me, but I technically outrank her because I have a qualification she doesn’t have (think like I’m a CPA and she isn’t).
    I really love my job, but Jane and I literally do not speak. As in, she doesn’t say hello and goodbye (I do). We sit next to each other in an open office space, so it’s super awkward. I’m not sure what I have done to annoy her except exist and do pretty good work according to my boss. She sometimes will email me (we sit next to each other! just talk to me!) to ask me if I’m handling XYZ in a way that feels incredibly passive aggressive, especially since I don’t report to her. She has been frosty from the start and I think she resents me coming in and changing the dynamic, but I didn’t expect it to be this bad and it’s not getting better. I’m an otherwise friendly person and had lots of friends at my previous job, but it’s been really hard to socialize here. Jane has been friends with the other girls I sit next to (who work for a related but seperate department) for years and they have a little clique. The other girls are polite enough at work, but then they all head out to lunch or coffee and have never invited me. They never initiate any kind of small talk either. They frequently talk over me to discuss their weekend plans or message each other on Skype and then laugh or snicker about things I don’t know about. People here usually socialize by department, so while I have friendly relationships with other departments we don’t hang out or anything. My boss is friendly but mostly hangs with the C-suite. I’m really tired of dealing with this, having lunch alone and never having anyone to talk to at the (multiple) social events thrown by my company. I know I’m a grown woman with other friends and interests and it shouldn’t affect me, but it all feels very mean girls in high school and is taking away the joy I otherwise feel here, to the extent that I’m considering looking elsewhere, which is unfortunate because this job is really great otherwise. No sure what I’m after here, mostly just venting.

    1. El Caminope*

      Oh man, I could have written this one 3 years ago. I feel you, especially on the solo lunches when you come from a place where you were friendly with everyone. Dynamics of three seem to be really tricky, especially when you’re the newbie entering a team of two who are also friends. I wish I had better advice for you, but chances are Jane is intimidated by what you bring to the table and the default reaction is to make you feel like an Other. The thing I repeated to myself was that other people’s rude treatment of me reflected on them, not necessarily anything I had done, although it’s so much easier said than done when you’re hearing coworkers laugh and ask about each other’s weekends and no one even acknowledges your presence. Stay strong! I will say karma catches up with everyone eventually – and even though there were times I wanted to call them out on that behavior, in the long run, the mean girls are noticed by others in more senior positions, and your ability to stay above it will be, too.

    2. MissDisplaced*

      This kind of thing wouldn’t bother me a bit as I’m an introvert and wired that way and never really expect work to fulfill my social or friendship needs.
      It’s understandable not to hang with your boss. But you know SCREW Jane–if she’s a jerk I’d avoid her anyway.

      The best thing I can suggest is that you try your best to forge more advanced work friendships with people in other departments, and START hanging out with them, even if it’s not as typical. Sure if might feel weird at first, but once you do it a time or two, it will begin to feel more natural.

      1. EH*

        This! I’ve made friends with folks in other departments, usually folks I interact with for other reasons. For example, I am still buddies with IT guys from a couple old jobs. (IT guys make GREAT interdepartmental friends, they know a ton about all departments and interpersonal stuff, and they see your fellow employees at their worst, so their reads on people are invaluable. Plus, I am a huge nerd, so we usually have stuff in common. :D)

        Small talk can be rough. At a previous gig, I made friends with folks from other departments by arriving early at events and then chatting with whoever else was also early. I’d make a joke about how weird/hard it is interacting with folks at work events, and 90% of the time, they’d agree and then comment about something that opened the way for conversation. That other 10% of the time, I’d ask them something or make a joke about small talk being tough and then offer something about myself. (If both of those attempts flop, I’d cut my losses and try again elsewhere.)

    3. Liz*

      This reminds me of my former job. I was hired as jr. position, under sr. position, who left on maternity leave shortly after I started and never came back. A replacement was hired for her position, but she was an internal transfer, so already knew everyone in our group. I hadn’t really worked all that much with sr. position or for that long before she went on maternity leave, so while we weren’t as close as everyone else, we got along and liked each other.

      For whatever reason, i never “clicked” with my new dept. As in I was kind of an outsider, and while people weren’t mean, i was always an afterthought. Never asked if i wanted to go to lunch with them, or coffee, or anything like that. I’m kind of an introvert anyway, but even so it would have been nice had they included me every once in a while. And Former CW would come in every now and then for lunch with everyone, and they’d all talk about it, out in the open for a couple of days leading up to it. So I could hear what was being planned, and then on the day she was coming in, usually just before, they’d say “OH so and so is coming in for lunch, do you want to join us?” yeah, um thanks but no. I don’t do afterthought invites. So I understand how you feel. Thankfully I left that job shortly after.

    4. Kathenus*

      I agree with other commenters that it’s not uncommon to have problems like this with a new team dynamic. Sometime’s it’s just lack of clicking on a personal level, sometime’s it’s got other components. One thing that might be a factor is the hierarchy you mention. You both report to your boss, but you also mention you technically outrank her due to a qualification. If you both work somewhat independently, and she doesn’t report to you, she might perceive you as peers; but if your perception is that you outrank her, this could be a root of at least part of the problem. If you don’t have any actual supervisory or lead role over Jane it might help if you reconfigure your thinking of her as an equal peer versus you outranking her. Everyone has different skills/qualifications and in some cases certifications, but these alone may not indicate a hierarchical structure, so maybe rethinking how your positions relate to each other could be beneficial.

      1. Lonesome*

        Fair point. I’ve tried really hard not to project that image. Mostly I feel like my boss reinforces this by occasionally saying “Jane, you need to turn this over to L for review since she is [qualification].” She doesn’t report to me so I certainly don’t tell her what to; we basically deal with two separate divisions and rarely interact unless our work overlaps, but my boss sometimes calls me in for reinforcements in her division since I have more clearance than she does for certain tasks. So the dynamic kind of feeds itself – I was really good friends with people in her position at my previous job and don’t consider myself above her in any way (but also won’t let her manage me). It’s a bit awkward as a setup and I should have considered that when accepting this job, but I was very focused on the other (very real) positives.

        1. Kathenus*

          I definitely see the challenges here. I work in an industry that’s changed radically in the last decade, and the newer people and longer tenured have had a lot of conflicts in the transition. One reason is that the new crop have these new tools/technologies/strategies that are changing the way things are done. Some of the longer tenured folks resist the change, but for a lot of them it’s the fact that their experience and knowledge sometimes isn’t noted or respected, especially by the newer staff. So maybe look for areas that Jane has a lot of experience in, use her for her institutional memory, and look for the aspects where she brings value that can help you to do your job; as well as being in the situations that you describe where your qualification is a necessity in her work. Maybe you can build a more symbiotic work relationship that way. Thanks for the response and extra context.

  46. BetsyTacy*

    I have a staffer who is going to be retiring in the next couple of months. I’ve only been his supervisor a few months, but he’s been here a long time and I want to give him a retirement gift.

    I’m planning on spending about $100 and looking for ideas. He’s a diehard golfer so I was thinking of a golf-related gift certificate? Or is this the type of a thing where it’s too easy to get wrong, so I should just give him a gift card to a nice restaurant. He’s the type of a guy who would also get a kick out of a funny travel mug and something absurd, like me getting him a case of (nice) golf balls.

    Also included will be a thoughtful card with a note talking about his impact to the department.

    1. Elizabeth Proctor*

      I would probably do a general gift card and the golf balls. Shows that you know enough about him but isn’t too specific.

    2. Flat Penny*

      I’d ask around with other managers to find out what is typical for people retiring after his kind of tenure.

    3. Laura H.*

      I’d offer maybe ask him? Because there may be something he’s planning to do during his retirement (like learning to cook a certain type of food that requires an inexpensive but special tool, or is wanting to take up a drawing class or something.) Added bonus of getting to know him a little better, and maybe making the card more heartfelt.

    5. KR*

      You can get golf balls that have things printed on them. If he likes funny absurd things could you do like golf balls with happy retirement on them or your company logo or maybe a work related joke – golf socks or a polo with fun patterns – a nice baseball cap to wear when golfing? You could possibly put together a nice little gift basket that’s golf themed

  47. Elizabeth Proctor*

    Curious about others’ perspectives and experiences here.

    My SO and I want to move our family to a nearby state where SO’s family is. We live in a major northeast city and where we want to move is much smaller (no major cities in the state…). I am transitioning to a new job in a couple of weeks where I’ll be working remotely. The salary is good, and even better for where we want to move.

    SO is having trouble finding a job in new state because there just isn’t their kind of work there and not a ton of opportunities in general. We are considering moving this summer anyway, staying with family for a while and figuring it out. SO is ready to move on from their current job for a lot of reasons. A bonus is that we wouldn’t have to pay for childcare while living in the new state until SO finds a job, so that’s a big cost savings.

    Has anyone taken this kind if leap of faith? How long did it take to find a new position? Did you have more luck when you were already living there? Did it turn out badly?

    1. valentine*

      Create a backup plan so you are not stranded with the relatives. Is there a third or fourth option, like moving to a nearby state where there are better jobs? Does it really make sense to prioritize the state/family?

    2. NoLongerYoungButLotsWiser*

      Since you can work anywhere, in my experience, you should wait until he has significant prospects / pending offer. The lure of moving to a lower cost area near family is strong, but not every industry/ skill has employment opportunities in some areas… and IF your family needs his income at all (run the numbers), you need to be sure he can get a job there before you jump. Or be willing to have him switch industries or roles / be under employed/ live on your salary. Others will no doubt chime in, but I have family in a wonderful low-cost area – but no jobs within an hour of the family member I’d most like to live near, in anything near my area of expertise or any pay I could do more than subsist on. And I have no kids to put through school or dependents other than mom. YMMV. But 5-10 years out, what will the impact be on your family’s finances and goals? Don’t rush.

    3. SherBert*

      I’d do the math to see if you could live on one paycheck in the event that SO doesn’t find anything or if whatever they do get doesn’t pay much.

      We have made the move where only one of us had a sure thing for work and managed. And that was without a network of family and friends nearby. If you think you can do it financially with one paycheck, I’d def go for it.

    4. Sleepytime Tea*

      My SO and I did this. He got a job in a new city and I followed without having something lined up immediately. It all really depends on what opportunities are like in the area you’re moving too, so if they’re limited, it might take awhile for them to find something. That said, I ended up getting a ton of help from recruiters. I had never used recruiters before, but figured hey, I can keep doing my own job search but having someone else also searching for me can’t hurt. And it didn’t! I ended up with multiple recruiters working with me and bringing me a lot of options. I would definitely look into it for the area, because it’s an option to just multiply your efforts essentially. I mean not all recruiters are great, but particularly if you find a good one it can be extremely helpful.

    5. Triplestep*

      I think SO should consider changing fields if there isn’t a lot of opportunity for them in their current field in the new city. This is something that will impact them for the rest of their career in that city if they ever want to change jobs.

      1. Elizabeth Proctor*

        Sorry, wasn’t clear that SO is applying for things in other fields, it’s just hard to make a career switch.

  48. RunnerGirl*

    Hi All,

    I am working at the moment, but I want to make a step forward in my career. So, following the advice on this blog, I have been quietly job searching. And I have been getting some interviews.

    It’s my most recent experience that has left me feeling mislead. I applied for and got two interviews for a job that would be right up my alley. After the second interview I was made a verbal offer. The manager I would be reporting to gave me the salary and a starting date. They sounded enthusiastic about me coming on board. Assured me that they would be in touch with me by a date. After the date had passed with no communication, I tried following-up. No response. I tried reaching out to their HR department, and still no response. I was ghosted.

    Thankfully, I haven’t given notice at my current job and they don’t know I am job searching.

    I’m feeling let down as they got my hopes up and then ghosted me for no reason. Other companies I have applied and interviewed with would send a quick e-mail to let me know that they have decided to move forward with a different candidate. The last big company I worked at didn’t make me an offer then ghost me afterwards.

    Is it normal to be down after this experience?

    Thanks for listening/reading.

    1. Liz*

      While its never happened to me, i’d be down too! Unless the company completely vaporized and no one is left, that’s a really horrible and unprofessional thing to do!

      While its not unusual not to hear much or anything at all if you simply apply, and sometimes even after you interview, the fact they made you an offer etc. and then you didn’t hear back either from the manager or HR? Kind of makes me think you may have dodged a bullet!

      But good think you didn’t give notice at your other job!

    3. Zephy*

      It sucks to get ghosted but it’s increasingly common. :( Possibly silly: have you checked your email’s Spam or Trash folders? Gmail (IME) likes to automagically divert messages with attachments to Spam or Trash. For CurrentJob, after I accepted the offer, my boss said she’d email me a background check authorization that I needed to fill out. I spent all damn day refreshing my inbox, only to see that the message had arrived within minutes of that earlier conversation and been immediately routed to Trash.

    4. Pikachu*

      I was ghosted after an interview once too. The guy (VP of Ops) said “I need to pass your information to HR so they can handle the paperwork side of things, so you should hear from Person early next week.”

      Never heard from Person. Never heard from any of them ever again. Followed up a few times to no avail.

      The funny thing is, the guy left that company but we were connected on LinkedIn. About four years later he messaged me and said he wasn’t sure how we were connected, but he was interesting in doing business with my current company (the one I ended up at as a result the job search where we had our ghost-interview).

      Holy awkward.

  49. rldk*

    I’m planning to go to law school in the fall, leaving my job of about a year-and-a-half. How much notice should I give?

    Factors: I haven’t put down a deposit yet but will before the end of the month, and I will definitely be leaving the city. We’re in the middle of strategic planning, particularly for a new database/data-managing process, and I’m the primary database person for our team. My team is in the midst of ramping up for a huge initiative of which the database will be a fairly critical part, but we’re only just at the stages of ‘do we need a fully new system.’ Previous coworkers who’ve left have had overlap periods with new hires and been given a lot of flexibility in transitioning, but worked only part-time (by their choice).

    1. Glomarization, Esq.*

      Your reason for leaving — law school — isn’t actually a factor here. What you want to think about are professionalism, politeness, the burden you’d be leaving for your co-workers, and whether you may burn a bridge by leaving everybody in the lurch. Does your team need just the ordinary American 2 weeks? Or do they need more? But honestly they shouldn’t need more than a month (if they do, that’s your workplace’s problem for not having succession plans, not yours).

      To add, between you and me, if you have the personal resources, I’d advise taking a couple of weeks’ vacation before you have to report to law school orientation. Your 1L year is a slog and you’ll appreciate starting with your batteries fully charged.

    2. Zephy*

      Can you create documentation for your role or update the documentation that exists? Alison has mentioned the concept before of a “Hit By A Bus Manual” – a document outlining all the processes that you’re responsible for or involved in, all the command chains you’re part of, who reports to whom, etc etc. Basically, everything someone would need to step into your role if you were hit by a bus tomorrow. Also handy for updating your resume when the time comes.

  50. ThrowingAway*

    I’m having a weird issue with my manager—typically we’ve worked together really well.

    Our team is going through a big transition right now and pivoting to different types of work. Let’s say we used to consult on teapot design with a particular type of customer. We’re now moving away from that customer group, and we’ll be focusing on research for teapot design, and we’ll be taking on projects that in general are a bit less exciting and creative, although the type of work suits our skills.

    I am more in support of this transition than a couple of others on my team. I don’t think it was handled in the most transparent way—they appear to have disregarded a lot of our feedback when early talks about this transition were underway. But in general, I’m on board.

    But since then, it seems as if my manager has been focused on improving the morale of those team members who are less satisfied. He’s been giving them projects I was also interested in without circling back to let me know—I find out after the project has already been given to someone else. I then need to take on a project I was really a lot less interested in.

    He also seems to be forgetting or disregarding our 1:1 conversations where I say I want to take on a particular independent project, he agrees, and then gives similar work to another team member.

    Just recently, we’re replacing an intern-type position on our team, and I had the idea to move it in a different direction given our new work. I said I’d love to be involved in the hiring of the new intern. I’ve been on search committees before and in general find search/hiring to be a cool process, and I think I’ve contributed strongly to the previous searches I’ve been on. Instead, he’s asked another team member to do this with him, without circling back with me to say he’d rather she handle it/any other kind of clarification.

    Now…I am not the type of person who needs to cherry-pick projects. But a large element of our previous work, and what I appreciated about this job, was the ability to have some say in what ended up on our plates. It seems like other folks still have this on the team and it’s growing less and less so for me, for some reason.

    Is this a conversation worth having with him? If so, how do I have it without sounding whiny? Again, I don’t feel as if I should get to work on whatever I want—I’m just confused because he will ask what I want to work on, not give me a yes or no, then go and essentially set up the opposite and I don’t find out until later.

    1. Kathenus*

      I think it’s worth having the conversation. I’d approach it along the lines of ‘I know that things are very busy right now and we all have a lot on our plates with the new direction and changes. I wanted to loop back on some past discussions about some ideas I’ve had and projects I’d like to be involved with if possible’. Then have a list of maybe 2-4 specific things you’d like from him – either actions you’d like him to approve (or not), or projects you’d like to be involved with. And during the meeting try to get some decisions and next steps so you can follow up with a specific action plan. Since you’ve worked well together in the past I’d chalk this up to him juggling all of the challenges and changes, and focusing attention on those who are still not on board while unintentionally taking those that are on board (you) for granted. So this could be a proactive way to help get back on track.

  51. I Work on a Hellmouth*

    Greetings from the Hellmouth! It’s been a pretty full week (awesome phone interview with Local Big University for an admin position with a boss that sounds really nice and normal! Boss having me followed and tracking my every moment, including how long I take to pee! Extreme weather! I got chased by a goose!), but the thing that has been taking up the most of my time has been talking to HR. I’ve been writing timelines, pulling documentation, taking pictures of cameras/microphones—aaaaaand I still have a lot to finish writing up (some of it stuff that I didn’t even mention here, because it sounds super crazy even in light of the usual Hellmouth stuff, but I have documentation that will prove it actually happened). I think Boss suspects something is up, and I am slightly terrified of what the fall out/actual results of all of this will be, but the way I currently see it 1) could it really get worse? and 2) at the very least, I probably won’t have to worry about being set up/terminated for a few weeks. And I have had some REALLY positive job hunt feedback/results, so even if I just stall everything here for a bit, I genuinely think I might have some decent job offers on the horizon (please keep crossing fingers and toes, lighting candles, etc). Oh, and for those that remember the War on Post-Its (which my boss had banned from the office, even after I told her that I actually needed them for my organization system due to being non-neurotypical and stating that I could bring in a doctor’s note for them)—the HR rep has said that SHE WILL GET ME MY POST-ITS. HUZZAH!

    So, if there are any updates on any of this, or if I manage to get everything sent off to HR and have time to write up being tailed by the maintenance supervisor, my Mission: Impossible exploits getting photos of my boss’ surveillance equipment, or The Great Goose Escape I will comment on this post. But guys! Maybe things won’t always be terrible! Maybe I’ll get out! Maybe my boss won’t be able to keep terrorizing people! IT IS A DAY OF HOPE!

    1. Peachkins*

      Aww, glad to hear things may be looking up. How awesome would it be to get a job offer AND get your horrible boss fired at the same time?

    3. Parenthetically*

      I CANNOT WAIT for the great and glorious day when we all get to settle in for the dramatic saga of how Hellboss got fired in humiliating fashion and you got to escape to a nice, normal job working for a nice, normal employer and now your most frustrating day involves internet issues and photocopier jams.

      Wishing you all the very very best! A day of hope!

    7. The Phleb*

      Oh…way to leave us hanging! Great goose chase? Being tailed? Mission Impossible?! AAAAA!

      1. Happy Lurker*

        Seriously, must hear more. But, good luck Hellmouth! I am smiling thinking about your escape.

    8. Nerdy Library Clerk*

      HOPE! \o/

      May HR come down like a ton of bricks on Hell Boss, and may you get the nice normal job you deserve!

    10. I Work on a Hellmouth*

      1) Thank you so much for all of the well wishes, everyone!
      2) Boss is now suddenly being astonishingly nice to me and even engaging in pleasant conversation (which is weird since she reiterated in this week’s team meeting that we’re not allowed to have idle conversation with coworkers, and that being chatty is actually stealing time/money from the company). I’m having some weird “Oh no, I am trying to get a person in trouble and that means that I’m a bad person!” emotional response, but I think it’s just my brain trying to trick me because I’ve been in a kind of abusive situation for awhile.
      3) Laying out black and white time lines of everything and pulling documentation and supporting evidence to go with it is really eye opening. Obviously, I knew things were terrible, but jeezum pete, looking at the sheer volume and content of everything is blowing my mind.

      1. kittymommy*

        – 2) Boss is now suddenly being astonishingly nice to me and even engaging in pleasant conversation (which is weird since she reiterated in this week’s team meeting that we’re not allowed to have idle conversation with coworkers, and that being chatty is actually stealing time/money from the company). I’m having some weird “Oh no, I am trying to get a person in trouble and that means that I’m a bad person!” emotional response, but I think it’s just my brain trying to trick me because I’ve been in a kind of abusive situation for awhile.

        No, do not fall for this trick Hellmouth-prisoner!! You stand strong against this trickery, we have your back.

      2. Peachkins*

        Yeeeah, please don’t feel bad. This woman sounds like a psycho that shouldn’t be in charge of running or managing anything. You’re helping the company itself by reporting her, and you’re helping countless other future employees by telling HR what’s happening.

      3. revueller*

        I don’t want to exagerrate the usage of the word, but you are correct to identify this as an abusive situation. Your response to your Boss suddenly being nice to you and the wake-up call of looking at the bare facts of what she has done to you and your office are reactions I’ve seen from friends and acquaintances in abusive relationships. I’m so so glad your company has an HR department and I wish you the best of luck for GTFO as soon as you’re able. Congrats on the excellent interview.

        1. Parenthetically*

          Yes! Classic abuser tactic — “Oh sh*t! I’m about to get caught! Better put on a good face!”

      4. The Man, Becky Lynch*

        Just remember that even The Devil himself can “play nice” if he wants to, it’s a manipulation tactic. Rarely is anyone so evil they cannot even play the trick of being pleasant. It’s how manipulation works, you lure the prey into your candy coated house and then at the right time you stuff them in the oven.

        Just remind yourself that this person is truly evil and it’s okay to be skeptical of anything seemingly “normal” or “pleasant” she does along the way. Assume it’s a trap. Trust. No. HellBoss.

      5. Blue*

        If she gets “in trouble,” it’s fully because of things SHE did and SHE caused, not because of you! I’m sure she doesn’t feel guilty about the hell she’s put you through and is only being nice in an attempt to lessen the consequences that she knows she deserves – maybe keep reminding yourself of that?

        Did HR approach you for additional information after GLC went to them? Hurray for them both! I really, really hope your boss gets what’s coming to her and that you have many awesome job offers with very normal bosses to choose from.

      6. I Work on a Hellmouth*

        You are all very, VERY right–we had some severe weather yesterday, so at about 3:30 my boss told me that if I was worried about the weather/my drive home I could leave for the day and make up my time today. So I went in a bit early and planned to stay late. Cut to 6:10, where my boss told everyone to go ahead and clock out because she wanted to submit payroll (it is due Monday morning). I reminded her that I was staying to make up time. She told me to take PTO. I looked at how much PTO I have (and thought about the job interviews that I want to go on) and stressed that I did not want to burn two hours of it. She pushed for me to just take it. I said that I would not have gone yesterday if I had known I would be burning PTO.

        So she coded it to sick time and sent me home.

        TRUST NO HELL BOSS.

        1. Arts Akimbo*

          I’m verrrry suspicious that she was doing something that she insisted you go home so you wouldn’t be around for it.

          1. I Work on a Hellmouth*

            That, or she wants to come in late on Monday and she can’t do that if she doesn’t submit it early. So, either she wanted to do something terrible, or she didn’t want me to get in the way of her sleeping in or whatever.

  52. Deb Morgan*

    I used to write blog posts for a small non-profit. The procedure was this:
    1. I write a short blog post.
    2. I submit it to the Executive Director for edits and approval. She either sends it back to me for edits, or she lets me know it’s approved as is.
    3. She sends it to the webmaster.
    4. The webmaster puts the blog post on the non-profit’s website.
    The problem lately has been that I send it to her for edits and approval, and then…nothing. If I resend it, there’s a 50% chance she’ll respond. I’m doing this work for free. Should I spend any more time writing these posts? I’m leaning towards “no”, but I’m curious what you think.

    1. NotaPirate*

      Can you have an in person conversation about it? Maybe there’s someone lower in the hierachy who can approve with a more responsive email. Maybe you need a different frequency of sending them, or maybe send several at once for her to approve and then let the webmaster stagger post. Or maybe they’re not interested in continuing. If you’re interested in it still then I’d try to get a conversation about it.

    2. Glomarization, Esq.*

      Have you asked her directly if she’s still interested in receiving content from you?

    3. Deb Morgan*

      @ NotaPirate and Glomarization, Esq.
      I think you’re both right that I need to talk to her if I’m interested in continuing to write for them. My frustration at the lack of communication on her side is coloring my view on this.

  53. Zona the Great*

    I need help dealing with a woman who takes up 90% of my time and headspace when I should only hear from her rarely. She’s new to her job yet not as new as I am to mine. She works for an non-profit agency that receives funding from my state agency and who also helps us manage the program at her county level. I’m the program manager and she doesn’t report to me but reports information up to me.

    She is someone who abuses (perhaps not intentionally) her right to call me with questions. She has exhausted me to the point that I am burned out on dealing with her. She’s kind and everything but she does not have any hesitation in calling with any little question. She calls to find out what someone else meant in a group email instead of calling them. She even wants to discuss wacky hypotheticals and strange suppositions. She tells a five minute story as a lead up to a question when I didn’t need the lead-up. She takes long pauses and speaks in only semantic word maps using inaccurate buzzwords. “Zona, I’d like to discuss the locus of control vis a vis the blah blah blah”. First of all, that’s not how you use “locus of control” and who the hell talks like that? It’s hard to listen to a voicemail like that without rolling your eyes out of your skull and onto your keyboard.

    Also, she will not email me even though I have asked her over and over to stop leaving voicemail (because hers are empty with simply a request to call her back even after I told her never to leave an empty voicemail and to always describe in detail why she’s calling if she wants a call back). When I do get an email from her, it is simply, “Zona, can we discuss X? Thanks”. I spend an entire day just trying to get her to tell me what exactly she needs. If I respond to that email, I say, “We can probably connect if necessary. Please tell me what your question is” and she will pick up the phone to call me about the question instead of answering the email. I now won’t answer when she does that. I would have to take copious notes to make sure I understand her question while also not being able to multitask like I can with email.

    Because all her questions require much policy research, I cannot keep doing this. I need to get her questions in a succinct way and in writing. I’ve told her this. She won’t do it. From here, I will just be ignoring her until she learns. If I did this to my partner at the federal level, I’d get in trouble, my boss would be called, and I would have my access to that agency strictly limited and would only be allowed to communicate in rigid formats. This is what I want to do to her but we don’t have those sorts of systems in place.

    Help!

    1. Glomarization, Esq.*

      I hear that you’ve tried and tried to get her to send e-mail and be succinct about her questions. But I wonder if it still isn’t a matter of just doing “lather, rinse, repeat” on it. If it were me, I’d answer every phone call with, “I’m sorry, I can’t answer that over the phone. I need you to put it in e-mail.” If/When she keeps going, “I’m sorry, I’m gonna have to stop you right there. I can’t answer that over the phone. I need you to put it in e-mail.” And every e-mail that isn’t complete enough, I’d reply with, “I’m sorry, I need more details. Please explain further in e-mail (and no phone calls, please, I can’t answer this over the phone).”

      You’re not refusing to be responsive to her! And there’s nothing in these replies that tells her to go away and leave you alone. You’d just be making it crystal clear to her that you can’t handle her business over the phone.

      1. Parenthetically*

        I totally agree with this. Give her a heads up: “It is no longer possible for me to address these inquiries over the phone. From this point forward, I will be unable to deal with requests X, Y, and Z over the phone and will redirect you to email.” And then repeat repeat repeat. “Again, Sally, I’m sorry, but it’s not possible for me to address this stuff over the phone any longer. Send me a detailed email with your inquiry laid out and I’ll handle it from there. Thanks!” *click*

        1. valentine*

          I don’t see the need to surrender your headspace. It’s a routine. Let it be routine.

          Unless it’s worth having your manager speak to hers, especially if they could establish those systems you want. But if you’re allowed to ignore her and to insist on emails, it’s better to keep this under your control.

      2. Akcipitrokulo*

        Very much this. Most of the time letting her go to answering machine and sometimes answering or responding to the call back on occasion will encourage it (it’s basically turning it into a gambling game).

        Simple, polite and consistent with wording above has best chance of working!

    2. RandomU...*

      Honestly, it sounds like you’ve been pretty clear on your expectations. I’d have no problems pulling way back on your interactions with her.

      If she emails you with no relevant question, then respond as you’ve been doing.
      If she calls you and leaves a long rambling voicemail. Email her back and ask her to reply with the question via email.
      If she calls you, don’t answer the phone. -then see previous
      If she calls you and you answer, then go with the “Oh hi, yes just running to a meeting. Please send an email with that question and I’ll reply when I have a chance to research it”

      Last thing I’d do is just give your boss an update that this is what you’re doing and why so they know what is going on.

      1. Peachkins*

        I’m inclined to agree. Give the boss a heads up on what’s going on and how you’re handling it to make sure it’s not an issue and in case the woman complains (make it clear how much of your time she’s taking up with unnecessary commentary and inquiries), ignore the phone calls or tell her to email you if she does get through, and respond to emails as appropriate.

      2. Bismuth*

        Yes to looping in your boss. I’d also keep a recording of a couple rambling voice mails, just in case.

        How do people like this get anything done?

      3. Blue*

        I’ve worked with some people like this, and these strategies largely worked! I particularly liked the, “I’m running to a meeting but send me an email with the details and I’ll get back to you when I have the time to look at it properly,” approach because it suggested “I care about giving you a quality response” instead of “get out of my face,” which is what I was actually thinking. Most of them eventually stopped bothering to call because I pretty much never answered and I always replied to their voicemails via email.

    3. Wishing You Well*

      This problem sounds big enough that it’s worth talking to your boss about it. Be sure you focus on how it’s affecting your job and make sure you propose a solution to your boss on how to handle it. Seriously, your boss needs to know this is taking up 90% of your work time.

    4. Rick Tq*

      Do you have a relationship with her manager or program director to discuss this?

      If Karen won’t follow your directions about these kind of questions/contacts her management needs to know about the problem.

    5. Kathenus*

      A lot of great comments on this already. One thing alluded to but I don’t thing yet addressed directly is that as long as you keep taking the time, answering phone calls, doing the research, etc. she has no reason to change her approach. Yes, if she was either more self-aware or professional she’d change her behavior based on your requests.

      But since she’s shown you that she has not been willing to do what you ask, giving her the reinforcement of doing what she wants despite her inappropriate methods is reinforcing her (in the scientific sense, meaning maintaining or increasing the behavior). You can’t change her behavior, but you can change how you respond, either by looping in your boss for support or simply not giving her what she wants until/unless she uses the methods you’re requesting. I commend you for not blowing up at her yet, I don’t think I would have been able to show the self restraint you seem like you have. Best of luck in dealing with this.

      1. Zona the Great*

        Thank you, Kathenus. You are correct that I am reinforcing her bad habits by giving her what she wants. I have serious anxiety around not providing good “customer service” even if she’s not really a customer. It’s been hard to balance anxiety about not answering with anxiety about answering, if that makes sense.

        1. Bismuth*

          Just remember — you have lots of other stakeholders who also are owed your time and attention — including yourself. Reining her in IS fair and focusing on the customers, and frankly it’ll help her in the long run if she figures out workplace norms. Maybe figure out how much of your time she’s trying to take as opposed to others in her position, so you can get an idea of proportion.

    6. Just us chickens*

      She needs you, you don’t need her. If she can’t follow your instructions on how to contact you, I say ignore her until she does.

  54. Resume*

    I was the main author of a grant we submitted and we actually won it! Can I put this on my resume? If so, what would be the best way to word it? And do I put how much the grant was or do I leave the money out of it!

    1. Save One Day at a Time*

      You can add your grant writing experience, sure! That’s a skill that people will want to know you have (in fact I’ve been told to leave it off my resume because of how desirable it is lol)

      You don’t need to mention the amount, but you can mention the type. “federal grant” is it’s own type of beast so if it is one you’ll want that on there

    2. Lily Rowan*

      Congrats! I think “main author of successful grant proposal to XYZ” would work, and if it’s an impressive amount, I would definitely include it. (But fundraising is my field.)

    3. BRR*

      If it’s a large amount you can put something like “secured $1 million grant to start llama grooming program.” Depending on your field, it might also work in your cover letter to accomplish “showing instead of telling.” (And congrats!)

    4. SciDiver*

      I’ve seen people include a section on either a CV or resume for “Grants & Scholarship” where you can list out grants you’ve been awarded (grant type, institution, some people will put $ amount but that’s more common in academia). Any scholarships, fellowships, grants, and monetary awards can go there! Or if you don’t want to make a new section, you can add it under the relevant job title.

  55. NightQueen*

    So I’ve provided a lot of context for this query that may or may not be important so TLDR; how can a group of workers politely “push back” to our superiors regarding a new process that we feel is unnecessary and a hindrance to productivity (& morale)?

    I work at an energy company as one of four accounting clerks. The four of us report to two AP managers. We’re all very close & very friendly because it’s a small office. We, as clerks, receive & enter vendor invoices on a daily basis into our database, which is VERY finicky and does not allow any kind of editing to an invoice once it has been posted (it must then be “reversed” or credited out and then re-entered if there are any errors or it needs to be deleted for whatever reason). Obviously there are going to be mis-key errors every now and then because there are multiple fields that must be manually entered, and none of us are perfect robots. This was brought up in a meeting yesterday after two errors were found on two January invoices (we process about a hundred invoices a day on the whole), so AP decided that the clerks should take the invoices they entered that day, run a report to show them all in Excel, and give the invoices & report to another clerk to have them check our work. We feel that this process is very elementary and none of us are happy about it. It adds another task to our already-busy day, and AP already checks our vendor statements on a monthly basis, where these errors would/should show up and be caught/fixed. The January mistakes should have been caught months ago, but they are “behind on checking statements.” We all understand that accuracy and and correctness is of utmost importance, but we think this process of checking each other’s work is frankly a bit silly.

    Are we justified in feeling this way? Doesn’t it seem infantizing and sophomoric? We may make about 5-10 errors over the course of an entire month, and they are typically caught & corrected quickly. None of our errors have ever led to incorrect vendor payments, so I feel like the handful of errors we make don’t warrant this process. How can we, as a group, push back on this and convince our superiors to allow us to simply be more careful and check our own work?

    1. TooTiredToThink*

      Since they currently can’t trust that the monthly process is working (because its not if they should have caught it months ago); then perhaps start there – come up with a plan – a real plan – to make sure that the monthly process actually gets done when it should and present that.

      1. Blue*

        I strongly agree with this. The occasional rare error is to be expected, and they already have a process in place for finding them. That process apparently works when they actually do it, so it makes sense to ensure that gets done reliably instead of adding an additional layer. That’s how you end up with unwieldy, inefficient bureaucracy.

        In a previous office of mine, they added an additional layer of review for certain kinds of paperwork – your boss had to sign off on it before it got submitted. They added this step because of a couple of people who didn’t care enough to review their own work. If I’d been one of the supervisors stuck reviewing all that paperwork because the higher ups couldn’t bring themselves to address performance issues in 3 or 4 people, I would’ve been unbelievably pissed. As it was, I knew I wasn’t part of the problem and it didn’t cause me any extra work, so I just found it incredibly dumb instead of insulting, but I fully get why NightQueen would be upset about it.

    2. Toodie*

      Can you estimate the time needed to do the new double-checking vs the time needed to do the corrections? Maybe if you show that there’s no ROI for the time needed, they would let it go.

      1. valentine*

        Also include the salary/wages of the people involved.

        I don’t know why you’re resisting proofreading. The lack of editing is ridiculous and a fresh set of eyes makes sense. If you can think of a better way to do it or if checking your own work in Excel helps you avoid mistakes, suggest that. Also suggest proper software would be a massive cost-saver.

        1. Darren*

          Lack of editing is pretty standard in financial systems it has to do with ensuring there is an audit trail.

          Typically even if editing is allowed it is restricted to higher-level employees and still basically looks the same at the database level as redoing the entire thing anyway.

          It’s to prevent people embezzling.

    3. Mazzy*

      It seems like overkill, spoken as someone doing similar work. Is there any reason that this needs to get done on a daily basis? It sounds like it doesn’t. I think there are economies of scale to doing these checks much less often, or designating one person as the checker.

    4. RandomU...*

      At the very least, I’d suggest to your supervisors that you only audit a percentage of the entries over a certain time period, and only for high impact errors such as price.

    5. London Calling*

      Are we justified in feeling this way? Doesn’t it seem infantizing and sophomoric?

      As an AP person who inputs several hundred invoices a month – yes and no respectively. 5-10 invoice errors in several hundred a month is a near invisible error rate and doesn’t warrant the sledgehammer solution they are taking to this. When I have input invoices the batches, with a covering voucher, are handed over to a checker for her to look at before they are handed to treasury for posting – that way any errors in inputting( such as a wrong tax rate) are picked up straight away and can be corrected before posting and eliminate the need for correcting journals.

      Seems to me that you are your colleagues are getting dumped with a load of work because another part of the department is behind. I’d be pretty miffed as well, not least because of the impression that my work can’t be trusted.

    6. Akcipitrokulo*

      I think it’s going to be difficult to push back on the grounds “it’s not that big a problem” – even if you’re correct – because what they will hear is that you are being defensive, not fully in touch with the realities of the situation and you don’t have sound judgement. None of which will help your case!

      Someone higher up sees it as enough of an issue to take action. They may be wrong! but that is how they see it.

      It definitely isn’t either insulting or infantalising. If higher-ups see an issue with accuracy, then it’s not unreasonable to put in some QA controls – it really isn’t criticising you or your work. It’s just recognising – as you have said – that you aren’t robots and that mistakes happen. Having a fresh pair of eyes is one of the best ways to combat simple errors.

      You might well be able to influence the way that this is done though, and that could really help your standing! Acknowledging that some kind of QA process would increase confidence, and then suggesting a streamlined way of doing it could work well.

      It may be that trying this way out for at least a couple of weeks will give you more data to suggest another way. Maybe even just having someone else check over the work instead of checking your own work? It is a very established principle that the *last* person that should check a piece of work is the one who did it! You don’t see your own mistakes. Whether that’s invoicing, or coding, or writing a blog or setting a table – if it’s your error, you just don’t see it as well as a fresh pair of eyes!

      Sorry, that got long! I hope it works out for you!

  56. AvonLady Barksdale*

    In my many years of working, I have come to realize that my absolute biggest pet peeve is a lack of resourcefulness. We all have our moments (I know I do) when we look for something or try to remember something and we go completely blank and have to ask someone, and that’s ok. I’m talking about people who ask before they try every single time.

    Lately in my office it’s been getting worse. “Where’s that file?” “What’s his email address?” “How do I do X in Y?” “When did you send that document?” Things that people can figure out on their own if they either looked harder or tried to do it themselves. This has been coming from my peers and I’m a bit fed up. The other day I very nearly said to someone, “I have copied you on every email I send to this guy, surely you can find his email address sitting somewhere in your inbox.” But I didn’t, because sometimes I just want to give them the answers so they’ll go away. “Try searching your inbox for that email” or “I’m not sure, did you Google it?” do not sound like helpful responses. I like being seen has someone who has a lot of answers, but to be honest, I don’t think I’m particularly special; I take my time to learn things and would rather do them myself than always ask someone else. Things that are simple as changing a color in PowerPoint– you learn it, it’s done, you don’t have to bother someone else to do something that takes two seconds.

    We were just trained on a new piece of proprietary software and so far I am the only one using it. I think the best way to learn new software, especially in my industry, is to make mistakes and figure out how to fix them. So I set aside time to do that, plus I jumped right in and started some projects in the new software so I could figure all this out. I am the only one on my team who is doing this, for what reasons, I do not know. That’s on them. I am not a betting woman, but I would bet money that once they jump in, I will get a ton of questions that can be answered by just hitting some buttons and trying to figure it out and, yes, failing to do so a few times. I am happy to answer the occasional question, but I didn’t design the software, I’m not a trainer, we have documentation, and I have my own work to do. If the questions get to be too much, what do I say to people? I don’t want to get dinged for being unhelpful or rude, but I also don’t want all of the work on this new system to fall to me and get in the way of my other work.

    1. ginger ale for all*

      Instead of saying “Try searching your inbox for that email” or “I’m not sure, did you Google it?”, rephrase it in a different way, like “You have been copied on e-mails with that person, get the e-mail address from there” and “You can google that”. Say it with a smile but take the soft pedaling away on repeat offenders.

      1. Not A Morning Person*

        Those may be a little friendlier, but the original phrasing works just fine. It doesn’t sound snarky or unhelpful at all!

    2. TiffanyAching*

      No advice, just wanted to voice my sympathy and support. I manage a system and am the main help resource for said system, and I also have the same group who repeatedly asks simple questions for which answers are readily available if they took like, two seconds to look.
      What I find extra frustrating is we have a number of training documents for the most common processes readily available on our internal web page, which I used to direct people to often. The training documents have step-by-step instructions and pictures, and are exactly what I would be typing out in an email anyway, so my opinion is it’s better to direct people to already-existing resources. But apparently responding to “How do I do X?” with “Great question, have you seen the documentation on WebPage for that? Here’s the link – Let me know if you have questions after looking through it!” is perceived as unfriendly and unhelpful.

      1. Not A Morning Person*

        But who is perceving it as unhelpful and unfriendly? The person requesting the help? What you are describing that you are doing is help! If they want you to do their work for them, then that may be what they are getting at, but it is not a good use of your resources or your organizations resources and is not truly helpful. (And another thing, just because someone thinks something doesn’t make it true. I hate that saying, “perception is reality.” No, it’s not. Sometimes perception is a lie.)

    3. Liz*

      YES! I hate this more than anything. People don’t want to think about how to do anything, except ask someone else how to do it, or for the information they already have but can’t be bothered to look for. I have no patience for that at all. I worked with someone like that, and he was annoying in other ways as well, but I was able to simply push back and tell him “look at your email, I know I’ve sent that to you several times” which he would do, but he was the type who would ask others first, since many people would simply just give in. Nope, not me.

      my one boss though; ARGH. She is completely techno and computer illiterate. And not at all resourceful. Our website was recently updated, and in order to get to a page of ours, you have to go through 2 links. On the new site, the first one needs a second to fully loud, because if not, you click on a different page. So she tried to get to this page but instead clicked on another link, taking her to a completely different one, and was then confused as to WHERE our page had gone, etc. and how it was WRONG.

      Me? Whether its work or not, I always try and figure things out before asking for help. I’ve always been that way.

    4. Admin of Sys*

      I’ve found the phrase “Can you tell me what you’ve looked for already so we don’t duplicate google searches?” very useful. Equally, “I thought I copied him on all those mail messages last week, did I accidentally blind carbon instead?” and comments like that work to gently remind folks they should be looking before asking. Basically, assume that they would have obviously done the base work themselves and spend time trying to figure out why that didn’t work for them, instead of giving them the answer.
      Also, the response is ‘Sorry, I’m busy with priority x, the answer should be in the training module somewhere’ is totally okay! If it’s not your responsibility to train them on the software, then it’s not unprofessional or unhelpful to focus on your priorities. And if they’re coming to you a lot, mention it to your manager. (Though be aware that if you pick up software quickly and other folks don’t, you may end up training your peers because your manager asks you to. )

    5. Kathenus*

      I get this frustration completely, I feel the same way. I posted a similar answer to a question above, but as long as you continue to help them out, they’re going to keep doing it this way. Unless you are willing to (politely) push back or redirect them to do it themselves, they have no reason to change because they can keep asking you and they get what they want. So it might be helpful to let your manager know you’re going to change the way you respond to some of these requests (you can phrase it as having a dual benefit of reducing the time you are pulled away from other work, and helping people practice problem-solving skills), and then to pick some stock responses (some good examples in other responses) and use them every time. Don’t do their work for them, or they’ll just keep asking. Good luck.

    6. Akcipitrokulo*

      It’s not unhelpful to say “it should be on the last email I copied you in on” or “I think there’s some good articles online for that”. I know it sounds rude to you – but it really isn’t!

    7. C*

      Oh, god, yes, this drives me nuts. It often goes hand-in-hand with a lack of ownership or accountability and drives me up a wall. It is not MY JOB to figure all this out for your. It is, in fact, YOUR JOB. Do it. I’ll help when I can and when it makes sense, but the total abdication of responsibility on your part does not make this my problem.

    8. Kat in VA*

      I have no advice but deep sympathy. I’ve been tempted to use the LMGTFY (Let Me Google That For You dot com) link more than once.

      Amazed at how Kat can Do The Thing in, say, MS Outlook? I’m not the all knowing, all seeing wizard…wanna take three guesses and the first two don’t count on how I figured out how to Do The Thing? Heck, if you don’t want to read instructions, there are even VIDEOS on how to Do The Thing in whatever program you’re futzing with!

      Nope, easier to say I WANNA DO THE THING IN *PROGRAM* BUT I DON’T KNOW HOW and Kat – being ever helpful and actually just wanting you to go away so I can get back to the dumpster fire that is my day – will Google it for you and there you go!

      See also: kids looking for TV remote that is literally at their feet and husband looking for X color of suit pants that are right in front of his face and…yeah. Nothing but sympathy for you.

    9. CM*

      Ideally when you’re starting a new software system there’s someone whose job it is to figure out how people will get training and support. I’m like you in that I learn by doing, but some people need more formal instruction to pick things up. If you’re worried that you’ll become the trainer and you don’t want to be, it might be worth saying that to your boss. “In the past, people have really leaned on me for tech support because I pick up software systems faster. I’m worried that I will end up being the main support person for this system and that isn’t something I enjoy doing.”

  57. ginger ale for all*

    I have a question for folks who take Metformin for diabetes. I have that side effect of smelling like fish an hour or two after my second dose of the day and so at the end of the workday, I am not pleasant smelling. What works for the people who have this same side effect? I can’t wear perfume to cover it up because that just makes me smell even odder. I work with the public at a library and I don’t want the patrons to smell me when I smell so awful.

    1. TooTiredToThink*

      Can you change your timings so you take the second dose after work? I didn’t even know this was a side effect; but my second dose is after dinner; once I’m home for the day.

    2. Mr. Tyzik*

      I think the smell comes out from sweat and bodily fluids – perhaps using an extra strength anti-perspirant might work? I don’t have this side effect but I smell fish every time I open the Metformin bottle.

    3. Admin of Sys*

      I’ve been told it’s from one of the fillers, so switching to a different generic may resolve it? There’s also info out there that the time release version isn’t as bad.

      1. Camellia*

        My husband used the time release version and he can’t stand the smell of fish so he would have mentioned it if that was an issue.

  58. New person*

    I’m over a month into a new position as a new manager at a new org and it’s…overwhelming. My manager and my direct report don’t get along and don’t communicate effectively, and both of them will badmouth the other to me. I’ve tried to talk to my direct report about how I’m not going to be his sounding board for my boss’s previous faults but obviously anything that’s impacting our work he can ask me about, and meanwhile my boss is just kind of like…sniping about my report but I’m not sure what to do about it. Like I’m sure some of it is valid but a lot of it is about things that happened before I started and I have no control over. I try and just not respond and correct my boss when she says something I know is incorrect about what my report has done, but I’m not sure what else to do. I’m hoping that with me as a go in between things might cool down between them and they can focus on their own work, but is that naive? Is there anything else I can do? They’re both kind of nonchalant about their lack of a working relationship but it’s not good. Like, they’re not NOT talking but it’s close. I’m assuming my direct report is looking for a new job because honestly I don’t know why he hasn’t left yet with the amount of frustration he’s expressed.

    1. Kathenus*

      My gosh that sounds tiring. I’m sorry, what an annoying position to be in. For your direct report, I think you’re taking the right approach to shut down venting but being open to current, actionable situations. For your boss, it’s of course more of a minefield. Could you address it more directly? “Boss, I know that you and direct report don’t have the most positive past history, and the concerns of X and Y you’ve mentioned are valid issues and I’m coaching them in XX ways in these areas. Some other past issues like A and B that you’ve mentioned are no longer an issue in my experience working with direct report, they’ve worked hard on these areas so I wanted to point out the progress they’ve made in addressing these past concerns. Is there anything else about their performance you’d like me to address?”

      Maybe a more direct approach like this will stop the sniping? If not, then you might have to decide if you mention that specifically too, or ignore it. It’s tough.

      For your direct report, keep doing what you’re doing. Coach them to identify specific concerns or issues and bring them up to you with suggestions for how to move forward. Then you have a dialogue, decide on an action plan (or decide that there will be no action), and then work to improve the situation (or accept it if you don’t have the ability to change things). Venting can be healthy, if it’s done in appropriate ways, is done professionally, and this is important – if it’s the first step in a problem-solving process. Venting can be a release valve to get out concerns and reduce the stress or tension by expressing issues, but if it’s not followed by moving forward with steps to address the situation, it’s simply bitching. I actually talk about the difference with my team, and that I support appropriate venting at times, but not bitching, and am clear about what the two are in my opinion.

      This is a tough situation, but if you can navigate it you will gain skills that will take you very far as a manager. Good luck!

      1. New person*

        Thank you for the advice and commiseration! This is super helpful. I haven’t really been able to have a good sit down with my boss yet to talk about my concerns so you’re right- I probably need to do that and I can talk about what would be helpful moving forward.

    2. Jerry Vandesic*

      If you want to succeed, you might need to replace your direct report. Your success depends on leading a team your boss supports and believes in. That might involved making personnel changes, sooner rather than later.

  59. NotaPirate*

    Any academia people around? I got asked to write a reccomendation letter to the tenure comittee for my advisor. The department asked me. I’ve googled some, just trying to figure out what to say. How specific should I be? Also how long?

    1. Rootbeer Lover*

      One page is good for the recommendation letter, you can push it to two if you really have a lot to say. Look at the T&P guidelines for your university (they should be in the faculty handbook) for the criteria and write about any of those criteria that you have personal experience/knowledge regarding your advisor.

      1. NotAPirate*

        Thank you so much! I would never have known to look for that, I just found it for his university. This is really helpful, I’m going to give some examples of things matching these criteria.

      2. tamarack and fireweed*

        Yup, I agree. One page. Look at faculty handbook. Usually, tenure and promotion are evaluated in terms of research, teaching & service, with different weighings in different institutions (and often, different units of the institution). What you can speak to — and are likely to be read with interest! — are: Their effectiveness as an advisor (this includes not only your development as a researcher, but also stuff like taking care of your funding, if they fund you, being on top of requirements etc.) ; their effectiveness managing the research team; their teaching (graduate-level); the climate they install (is it welcoming? if you’re a woman and the field is male-dominated, or a POC or disabled, how knowledgeable is your advisor…).

        Obviously be super professional about it. Often it is better to damn with faint praise, or by omission, if damning is what you need to do. The lucky position where you’re happy all-around is much easier to take care of, and you can proceed point-by-point following a checklist.

  60. ThatGirl*

    I’m starting to get a little … pessimistic? Things have always moved kinda slowly here, I know that. When I started I was promised a lot of flexibility to design my job (a new position) and take it the direction I thought it should go – and that primarily involved being a bigger-picture person, not spending nearly as much time on the day to day CSR related stuff my coworkers deal with.
    Then busy season hit, so I stepped into that more out of necessity, and then last summer a whole slew of changes happened, my entire team either got let go, left or moved into a new role, and I found myself with a new team lead, a new higher-level manager, and new team members, all of whom I’ve trained myself.
    I had candid conversations with my new team lead about what I was hired to do, what I wanted to do, etc and she and her manager understand and have been very forthright in wanting me to get back to that, valuing my experience and so forth, I got a fairly good raise because of it… and I was promised an answer by May. Here we are less than 2 weeks to go and there doesn’t seem to be much sign of movement. I’m pretty sure despite all their advocating for me, my third-level-up manager doesn’t know me (there have been a lot of management changes) and doesn’t really quite understand the problem.
    I don’t want to leave – there are a lot of great things about this job – but I do wonder if I’m going to be stuck in too-menial work if I don’t look for a path out.

    1. CM*

      When you say you don’t want to leave, do you mean you like the job you’re doing now or you don’t want to let go of the hope that you can have the job you were promised? If it’s the second thing, it might actually be better to let that go if it’s not going to happen. It sucks because it sounds like maybe the job you were hired for got eliminated and no one is acknowledging that or acknowledging that maybe you won’t be happy with whatever random job they offer you instead. But if that’s what’s happened, it’s better to know for sure and decide whether you want what you’re being offered now. So my advice is make sure you get a super clear answer in May. And, if you can’t get that, assume it means “your job was eliminated and we don’t have the emotional IQ to tell you that.”

      1. ThatGirl*

        My job isn’t going to be eliminated, but there’s a chance it’ll never be quite what I want it to be.

        I don’t want to leave (right now, anyway) because even though my responsibilities aren’t quite what I want, I have responsibility, autonomy, flexibility, good pay and a short commute. For now the good outweighs the frustrating. Plus job searching is annoying.

  61. Anon for this one*

    There is a guy in my office who loudly masturbates in the bathroom stall for up to an hour every day. It doesn’t even matter if the bathroom is completely full, he is undeterred. Several people including managers have gone to HR to complain. HR’s stance is they can’t do anything about it because they do not have definite proof. They suggested someone knock on the door while he is in the act and ask him if he is ok. This has caused a big disruption in the office. People are now planning ways to catch him in the act to get proof for HR. A few people have confronted him about it but he always denies it. I don’t know what can be done at this point if HR is unwilling to act. But people should be able to go to the bathroom without being subjected to the sounds of someone self pleasuring.
    I’m curious if anyone has suggestions on how to deal with this coworker moving forward.

    1. CatCat*

      HR’s stance is they can’t do anything about it because they do not have definite proof.

      What the actual F. There are several witnesses hearing this go on! I’m really curious to know what definite proof they actually require to even investigate!

      I would 100% avoid this coworker. I don’t know if you are personally impacted. If so, keep at HR and your supervisor in writing. “Ted is masturbating in the bathroom again. I don’t want to be around his sexual activities in the workplace.” Just keep at it. They’re brushing you off? Well, nonetheless, keep at it.

      Company is definitely setting itself up to get into some legal trouble. Shocking.

      1. valentine*

        Use the term sexual harassment. Resist any suggestion it’s lesser or that gender precludes it.

        ~Read the advice for the OP whose coworker was doing sex work in the bathroom.
        ~See if Alison will make this a standalone letter so it can go viral and someone, anyone, will be spurred to act? Where is his manager in this?
        ~Is it worth stopping him if you get in trouble for taking turns knocking on the stall door or telling him to stop?
        ~Look for class-action precedents.

        1. Anon for this one*

          I do like the idea of taking turns knocking.
          And no, I do not want this to go viral. It’s a specific enough situation that I do not want the attention or any possible blow back.

        2. RVA Cat*

          Note that sexual harassment is possible even between heterosexual males – see the infamous oil rig case (Oncale, 1998).

    2. Temperance*

      Um, what the actual hell? HR is … so wrong about this. Wow.

      Talk to an employment attorney. This seems to be lawsuit fodder.

    3. Nicki Name*

      Is “You’re being loud and disruptive in the bathroom” considered grounds enough for someone to tell him he needs to stop, without trying to go into what it specifically sounds like?

      (Also, are you REALLY sure that’s what the sounds are, and not, say, the effects of some kind of painful digestive problem?)

    4. Ali G*

      I have no words. How is multiple people telling HR there’s a dude pleasuring himself in the bathroom on the regular not proof?? Legally, you can’t obtain “proof” of this besides from witnesses. I’m thinking you all need to file claims of sexual harassment to spur on HR. They are useless.

    5. BRR*

      If you know for sure he’s masturbating I’d make this the hill to die on. Report it up your chain or the HR chain. I don’t think trying to catch him is a good solution. I think it’s a really bad idea and I’d strongly discourage people from doing it. Maybe try going to hr and phrasing the complaint as “what is going to be done about this?” Basically try and force them into doing something instead of giving them space to say they can’t do anything.

    6. Anono-me*

      This is so weird to me. Your HR doesn’t sound real useful.
      My concern is that someone trying to play detective and catch someone doing something they shouldn’t be in a private bathroom stall could get the amateur detective in all sorts of trouble.

      1. Anon for this one*

        Yes that is what I am concerned about. Someone gets in trouble for trying to catch him yet he faces no consequences.

    7. irene adler*

      An hour? Awful.

      Certainly that is detracting from his ability to complete his tasks-yes? Why aren’t folks complaining about how his lengthy unavailability makes for delays with completing their tasks? Or are folks good with working around him? Maybe folks need to start speaking up regarding how this is adversely affecting deadlines or task completion.

      1. Camellia*

        Yes, that is the part that jumped out at me. Seems like addressing this might address the issue overall. And you don’t have to figure out if he’s really masturbating or if something else is going on.

        And if it’s “something” else that takes an hour, maybe a doctor’s note and a request for accommodation is what’s really needed.

      2. Anon for this one*

        Well we have to take a mandatory lunch break. Maybe that is why they are less concerned with the time away from his desk just what he is doing on said break.

      3. Ra94*

        An hour each day seems potentially a bit…painful for him?! It’s just so, so bizarre that part of me wonders if he doesn’t have a medical condition that causes loud toilet exertions, and HR know about it but don’t want to reveal it, which is why they’re being so blase about it?

    8. Anonforthis*

      So many questions…an hour? really?

      As an HR person, I wouldn’t approach it as “hey, you’re masturbating in the bathroom, what’s up with that?” but rather “I realize this may be a very difficult and private thing to address with you, but I’ve received reports that you are very loud and disruptive in the bathroom for extended periods of time. Can you explain to me what’s going on?”
      Unless it’s some kind of medical situation, I’d tell the person “The expectation is that you conduct yourself with professionalism when at work, which includes private spaces like the bathroom. If we have to address this with you again, you may be subject to disciplinary action blah blah blah.”

      1. Anon for this one*

        Yes. People have started to time his trips to the bathroom. It is not a medical situation. Several men have come to the same conclusion on what he is doing in there. Without getting too into detail, there is a difference in the sounds.

    9. LGC*

      WHAT IS WITH PEOPLE THIS FRIDAY

      (I’m sorry. It’s not you. It’s this creeper and then Twitter Girl downthread. Also, an hour?!)

      So, your HR sucks. I’m sorry. But…um…is his manager aware of this? It sounds like you know who the guy is. He (or she) should know that Fergus is away from his desk up to an hour per day. That in and of itself sounds concerning (although if it’s breaks, then…less so, but I feel like you would have said he was on break if he was).

    10. Hiring Mgr*

      It’s possible he has a medical condition and has received accomodation, and that HR rightly doesn’t want to discuss another employee’s private medical information

      1. Anon for this one*

        Well his supervisor has also complained to HR. I believe they would be privy to any accommodations. If not the specific accommodation that one exists.

        1. Hiring Mgr*

          Yes, in light of your comment it’s probably got nothing to do with medical conditions or accomodations.

          1. Lilith*

            Clearly I’m out of the medical loop, plus I’m a woman. Can someone do me a solid & explain the accommodation for whacking off? I’m asking honestly.

            1. Sleepytime Tea*

              Only thing I can think of is if you were a nymphomaniac? I mean… I think that’s technically a medical condition… However I don’t see this as being a “reasonable” accommodation in any way shape or form.

            2. Akcipitrokulo*

              I guess the suggestion is that it might not be that, but more… um… straining to use the toilet for its intended purposes?

              1. Lilysparrow*

                The sound of a man masturbating is not just about vocal expression. Pooping does not make those kind of noises at all.

    11. Earthwalker*

      Although the idea is a bit appalling, didn’t someone just say last week that potty stalls are supposed to be treated as soundproof, that one does not talk through the door and ignores the noises one might hear? While this sounds icky, it’s really not hurting anyone else except that he’s losing one working hour a day. That should be a matter between him and his manager, who can deal with shirking if it’s what you think, or with a medical issue if it’s not.

      1. Marvel*

        That was referring to noises people cannot help making (i.e., their bodies make them regardless of how much they might will it otherwise) while using the bathroom for its intended purpose, a need that is common to everyone and that must be provided for while at work, since we can’t turn off the biological functions that require us to excrete foul-smelling substances from private areas on a regular basis.

        Regardless of how much masturbating this dude might “need” to do (and to be clear that’s not a goddamn medical need, however much some cis men might like to pretend otherwise), he can absolutely wait until he gets home. Or, hell, he could do it WITHOUT MAKING NOISE. He’s choosing to do what he’s doing and it’s sexual harassment.

        The fact that I just had to type a comment spelling this out depresses me.

      2. Lilysparrow*

        He is deliberately making his co-workers be an audience to his sexual activity against their will. That is harmful, inappropriate, and unethical.

      3. C*

        Well, yes, but there’s also the even more tried-and-true “Thou shalt not bring your sex life into the office.” which trumps the “stalls are soundproof” fiction we all adopt for normally bodily functions.

    12. Akcipitrokulo*

      Tell HR that this is sexual harassment and they need to act. FFS – this is not OK!

    13. KAG*

      OK, so there’s a dude who makes funny noises for an extended period of time in the men’s restroom without restricting other guys from being able to do their business.

      Seems like a great source of gossip (and I’m not being sarcastic- those are huge benefits to working in an office), but an HR offense? Grow up, kids.

      1. Boone9*

        And if it’s the only restroom available, they should just have to suck it up and ignore the loudly masturbating coworker? What a nightmare. No.

    14. Lilysparrow*

      1) Bang on the stall door and yell, “Knock it off, Doug, or I’m dialling HR right now.”

      2) Call the HR rep from inside the bathroom and let them listen.

    15. bunniferous*

      At this point could a group go to HR together and complain at one time? This is so gross.

      1. b*

        Time to bring in the canned airhorn. One blast will knock the fantasies right outta his head (and something else outta his hand).

  62. Lady Dedlock*

    I’m part of a workgroup tasked with making recommendations to senior leadership about how we should revise our staff development practices. This seems like a great opportunity to make some positive changes, so tell me: at organizations that really supported your professional development, what practices and processes enabled them to do that?

    For context: I’m part of a research unit at a college. Everyone at the college is supposed to do annual reviews and mid-year check-ins, but not everybody in our department does them or seems to know how to use them to have a productive conversation. Processes for promotion are pretty murky too. Senior leadership in our unit says we don’t need to strictly adhere to the college’s review process.

    I’ve spent most of my career at this place, so I don’t have a lot of personal experience with other ways of doing things, but I know we could do better!

    1. Policy wonk*

      Recommend you REQUIRE a certain amount of training or development activities per year. My organization has a problem with two offices that never let their employees go to training or conferences because they are too valuable. So instead employees get fed up and leave.

    2. CM*

      At the last place I worked the biggest issue was letting people have protected time for informal learning (outside of a course or conference). Maybe they wanted to read a book or watch a video or just mess around with a new software program — that was treated as unimportant by the PD system, but it’s what would have helped them learn. We obviously never achieved this but I think letting people protect a certain amount of time is key.

    3. tamarack and fireweed*

      I like Policy wonk’s suggestion.

      Also, given the murkiness of evaluation and promotion criteria, and the fact that professional development should surely be tied into them, I wonder if this isn’t a great opportunity to suggest ironing those out, as well.

    4. Elizabeth*

      Require a certain number of hours / year.
      Work out some core competencies for various positions and ask staff to apply for development / training by relating the training to the core competencies.
      Encourage a bottom up approach for the presentation of ideas and change – ie, if management have an issue, they should work out what the outcome they want looks like – eg, issue is not meeting contracted deadlines with projects, and so not getting paid. Desired outcome is meeting deadlines and so getting full payment and sometimes bonus payment. Present the issue and the desired outcome to the staff. Give them time to think about it, and then protected time to come up with some solutions.
      Set up a timetable for the annual reviews. Measure managers on this (don’t measure staff on it)
      Ask managers to set up a monthly (if they manage 8 staff or less) or two monthly review of the annual review with each staff member. Meeting is specifically to discuss progress on annual plan, what staff member needs from manager, what can be done in the next month, what is now unrealistic etc. Discussions and achievements should be entered directly into the annual plan document on the computer during the meeting. Measure managers on this. This means that when the annual review comes up, it is in essence already complete, there are no surprises and everyone has been kept up to date through the year.
      Ask managers to model good employee and manager behaviour – listen to employees, act on concerns, discuss issues openly.
      When staff come up with ideas or proposals, support them to further develop them. Give the staff training in the presentation of ideas and proposals. If the staff aren’t confident to take the idea further, and it is worth pursuing, work with the proposer to put a team together to further develop – both the idea and the proposer. Always acknowledge the original proposer.

  63. VV007*

    How much information should you share about a coworkers departure? For context: A coworker quit without notice recently and I am finding that most of her projects were left in a state of disarray. How much information should I share internally with other departments that may have been left hanging? I guess I’m just not sure what crosses the line to gossip. It doesn’t help that this individual created a lot of drama before she quit (she was extremely public with her dissatisfaction) so other departments are understandably curious about her departure. It’s a very gossipy place and I don’t want to get sucked in to it! However, I’m very frustrated by the state of her projects and part of me wants to tell people that it’s not my fault that she left everything a mess! How do I convey that I am doing the best I can to clean-up her mess despite not even being trained on certain aspects of her job and for people to please have a little patience without telling people how much this former coworker messed up?

    1. Temperance*

      You need to tell people, especially your manager, exactly what’s going on. It’s not gossip.

    2. Mockingjay*

      Stick to the facts. Make a list of what’s late or incorrect, with a proposed solution for each. Include time and resource estimates to complete, if needed.

      Bring the list to your manager. “Lucinda, here are the outstanding work items. What should I prioritize? Can we farm some of the work to other teammates?” Notice that departed coworker is not mentioned.

      Let your manager deal with other departments, especially for incomplete work which affects their tasks. If asked, “please discuss that with Lucinda.”

    3. Sleepytime Tea*

      This is what you say to people: “I’m so sorry that project xyz is behind, Barbara left unexpectedly and I am not familiar with it so I’m playing a lot of catch up right now.”

      Then you talk to your boss and make sure that they are aware of what a crap show it is.

      None of that is gossip. Gossip would be if Barbara left because she was going into drug rehab and you told everyone about it. It is not gossip to say she left unexpectedly and you’re trying to catch up on her work that you didn’t previously know anything about.

    4. Akcipitrokulo*

      Don’t talk about her. Talk about the tasks and situation. So don’t say “Jane didn’t complete X, so the report may be delayed” – say “X hasn’t been completed, so the report may be delayed”. People will know why – but the point is to keep your conversation on the tasks, not the person, and so avoid gossip.

  64. Seifer*

    One of my coworkers passed away suddenly last week. He was in the office two Fridays ago, laughing and joking with us, then rushed to the hospital over the weekend, and… then that was it. He had stage III cancer. Another coworker’s in law passed away this week. Yesterday a coworker from my last company, her husband passed away.

    I’m shaken. People tell you that when you get older, your friends start to die and it hits you, your own mortality. And that’s probably true, but I think it’s harder when you’re younger and you work with older people and they start to die. Mortality as a whole becomes… more and more fragile.

    1. Zephy*

      Oh jeez, I’m sorry you’re dealing with that. Just because it wasn’t you/your immediate family doesn’t mean it can’t affect you, so don’t feel like you aren’t “allowed” to find this kind of news upsetting. It is, and you are. I encourage you to talk to somebody – use your EAP, seek comfort with your religious community if you have one, look to see if there’s a counseling center in your community, download an app like Talkspace.

    3. Akcipitrokulo*

      I’m so sorry. It might help to know that any reasonable office won’t expect you just to shake this off – it’s OK to be affected by it. I hope you are doing OK.

  65. blood orange*

    In my field, the normal title for my responsibilities would be Llama Surgeon. By normal, I mean if I looked at other Llama Surgeon jobs in my area, I would fit the description. However, my title at my company is odd and more along the lines of Llama Medical Coordinator.

    Will this hurt me later when I look for other jobs? Should I push for a title change?

    1. Zephy*

      In your area, is “surgeon” a protected title (i.e., you need some kind of credential to legally call yourself one)? Do you have the necessary credential to call yourself a surgeon? Would your workplace support you taking the steps necessary to get that credential and agree to a title change once you do?

    2. Kathenus*

      If you think the title change is appropriate/desired, you can certainly ask for it. But I wouldn’t worry too much about it hurting you later in your career, because Alison has given some good models in the past on addressing this type of thing on a resume:

      Llama Farms International – Llama Medical Coordinator (Llama Surgeon)

    3. Sleepytime Tea*

      I am a business analyst, and one of my job titles was “Dedicated Care Representative III.” Yeah. Cause that’s the same thing. I had multiple HR people tell me to not even use that title, to just put Business Analyst on my resume, because that title made no sense and didn’t convey what I did. So I did just that and it never caused a problem. One time during an extremely extensive background check they noted that the title I provided and the title the company gave when doing employment verification didn’t match, and no one said a word about it.

      After reading Alison’s column though, I would say it is probably best to go ahead and say “Llama Surgeon (Llama Medical Coordinator)” on your resume, just so that your technical title is there. As long as we’re not actually talking about something like being a doctor where you have to have specific credentials and licenses, in which case, yeah, you better have those!

  66. Lucette Kensack*

    I’ve been at my organization for a little over four years. My work and job description have changed (significantly) several times and I’ve had to do battle with our management to get the promotions (in title and salary) that should have gone along with my new job responsibilities. I was formally promoted once during this time, and a second promotion and title will take effect this summer.

    But the promotions in title don’t actually line up with when my responsibilities changed, because they were delayed while I had to fight for them. How should I list this on my resume and LinkedIn?

    Here’s how my job has actually changed:

    March 2015 – June 2016: Support for Program A
    June 2016 – September 2016: 50% support for Program A, 50% manage Program B
    October 2016 – June 2017: 50% Manage Program B, 50% Manage Initiative C
    July 2017 – June 2018: 50% Support for Program A, 50% manage Program B
    July 2018 – present: 50% support for Program A, 50% manage Program D

    (OMG I’m exhausted looking at that)

    But here’s how my title has changed:

    March 2015 – September 2017: Original Title (a normal title in my field)
    September 2017 – June 2019: Current Title (a made up title that requires explanation)
    July 2019: New Title (a normal, obviously higher-level title in my field)

    I have been New Title-level work since October 2016. But I had to fight for a promotion after I started that work, and it didn’t take effect until September 2017 — and even then, due to organizational politics, they couldn’t/wouldn’t give me New Title until now.

    So… what should my resume say?

    1. TooTiredToThink*

      I am not an expert AT ALL – but if you only focused on the titles it makes it look like you are being promoted every 2 years; which _to me_ sounds impressive.

      (My own resume is kinda like this too, but even though I was doing the work of my last title for *years* I had so many title changes that it looked like I was constantly being promoted).

      1. Lucette Kensack*

        Thank you! It IS impressive. I’ve really earned this.

        Your response made me realize that I didn’t really ask my question right. What I’m wondering is how I should list my accomplishments, when the accomplishments don’t line up with the promotions.

        So, for example, while I was Original Title, I have some accomplishments that fall under Current Title or New Title (and that really don’t make sense under Original Title) — like, successes in launching a new program, but Original Title is specific to a different program. Etc.

        1. Akcipitrokulo*

          I think it isn’t unusual for an accomplishment to have happened at the lower level – that’s why they promoted you! So a little discontinuity is fine, as long as you have accomplishments at the lined up level too.

    2. it happens*

      Changing titles with the same employer is easier to show than having lots of different employers. In a similar situation I have just put first and last title together (with a / between). What’s important is the accomplishments- so what you’ve done to keep Program A stable, Initiative C started and B managed to great results. Your resume is a marketing document, not a deposition. (But don’t lie or exaggerate.)

  67. NotaPirate*

    Second question, giving it it’s own post. I found out a coworker who got fired is suing our employer. No one in my pay grade is supposed to know about it. Only the hire ups. Direct boss knows I know. I’m not sure what they are suing specifically for. They were terrible at their job and lying a lot so their departure was not inexplicable. Am I likely to have to give testimony or anything? Legal stuff freaks me out….

    1. Plant Lady*

      Just FYI, it’s “higher” ups not “hire” ups.

      Unless you worked a lot with the coworker, had something to do directly with them leaving, or have insider knowledge about their work and departure, I really doubt you’ll have anything to do with this at all. They’ll probably settle out of court or the case will be dropped anywhere.

      1. NotaPirate*

        Whoops I knew that. Brain must be napping. I worked directly with them and they did some tasks for me after boss realized they couldn’t perform the other tasks accurately. Then had to give progress reports on them to Boss. But the decision to let them go didn’t involve me. Glad I won’t have to deal with it!!

        1. Darren*

          Given what you’ve said about the progress reports it’s actually possible if it went to trial that you would need to be called up but that would pretty much entirely be to get those progress reports into evidence to show that the person was under-performing.

          You’d basically be asked a few questions about who you are and what you do, why you were asked to write the reports, and to certify that the contents (as entered into evidence) match what you handed off to management.

          Cross examination would mainly be focusing on not getting the documents into evidence so you’d likely be asked questions about your relationship with the person, and various things to try and cast doubt on whether they are reasonable to put into evidence.

          It’s really nothing to worry about, and that would only happen in the cases that it went to trial (unlikely) and that your companies representation felt the case really needed the original progress reports not just the management performance reports themselves.

    2. Four lights*

      As someone who works in law, a lot of stuff is settled somehow way before the trial. If you’re interested in what they’re suing for, lawsuits are public records. You may be able to view the paperwork on your county clerk’s website.

    3. Sleepytime Tea*

      Highly unlikely. Most stuff doesn’t get that far. If you have really direct knowledge about their dealings with management, then theoretically you could get called as a witness, but probably not. Don’t stress about it unless/until something actually happens.

    4. Not One of the Bronte Sisters*

      There is an outside possibility that you will be deposed by coworker’s lawyer, but your company’s lawyer would prepare you and then defend you at the deposition. There is almost no likelihood that you would have to testify at trial. In fact, there’s very little likelihood that there will be a trial. It’s best if you let legal experts worry about where this goes–it’s what we’re trained to do.

      2. Not A Morning Person*

        I had something similar happen when there was a dispute between a divorced couple, one an employee, about child custody because the employee was offered and wanted to accept a promotion that required relocation. I, as the HR person involved in making the offer, just had to go to our corporate lawyer’s office upstairs and be questioned over the telephone about the offer and the relocation. I was nervous about it because I hadn’t done anything like it before, but it was actually pretty straight-forward and kind of dull. I had been a little worried over nothing!

        1. Not A Morning Person*

          In case is isn’t clear, the call and questioning was from the lawyer for the non-employee and former spouse who was concerned about the relocation and it’s impact on custody arrangements. All very normal and low key questions about facts of the job offer and relocation.

  68. Dealing with a Fergus*

    I could use some advice for dealing with a difficult coworker in meetings.

    For context, I work for a large organization where several of us are doing the same job function embedded in different departments. Once a month, we meet to discuss larger initiatives for the entire organization. It is a meeting of peers, no one reports to anyone else.

    We have one particular colleague who is combative and domineering in the meetings. He doesn’t talk over people but when he has an idea, he will not drop it even when others disagree or have told him no. Basically, he refuses to listen to others expertise or points of view, advocating for his own to the point where he is arguing with several other people at the table. Generally, his opinions are based on his own personal experience and do not have facts or data to back them up. In our last meeting, he did this with all three items on the agenda so he’s essentially picking multiple battles in one meeting. While he does not talk over people, he talks so much in meetings we do not hear from others. He also disregards the expertise of other people in this meeting, even people who have directly worked on projects like the one under discussion.

    Does anyone have any good scripts for dealing with someone who will not stop arguing his point? It’s particularly troubling because this individual advocates for his own department sometimes at the expense of others. He has ignored people when they have tried scripts like “Fergus, I hear your concern about x but [reason why it’s not a good plan] and we need to move on.”

    What would you advise someone to do who is a fellow peer in the meeting and not running the meeting?

    1. MsM*

      I’d drop the explanation of why it’s not a good idea: “Fergus, you’ve made your point. We’re moving on now.” Or even, “Fergus, I think we’ve heard enough from you today. Let’s get other people’s input. Jane?”

      Also, if the no leader meeting style is making it easier for Fergus to get away with dominating, I’d rethink that. You can rotate who’s in charge, but if there is someone with the power to set the agenda and determine when something’s off-topic or no longer productive, it’s harder for people like Fergus to pretend they’re just attempting to foster discussion.

    2. Cats and dogs*

      Sorry you are dealing with this. It is incredibly difficult and stressful. However: Since you are coworkers you cannot really manage him. You can raise your hand and wait patiently. You can speak to your manager outside of the meeting without complaining about him but more to say your ideas that did not get discussed. But everyone knows he is doing this and probably no one appreciates it. Who knows if he has some connection to the higher ups which is why he has not been fired or put in his place publicly yet. (But clearly should be put in his place).

  69. A Consultant*

    An update and a question:
    Around 9 months ago, I posted a question for other small business owners who started as a one-person shop and grew. Essentially: “How did you know when it was time to hire staff?” Y’all gave some extremely helpful thoughts and advice on this, and someone asked me to update down the road.

    The update is that I’m biting the bullet and starting the hiring process for an assistant. It’s very nerve-wracking, but I’m hopeful it’s the right step. I’ve gone through the numbers repeatedly to convince myself that the revenue and work is actually there to support a second person. As well as reminding myself that this will (if all goes well) help reduce my stress and allow the company to do more. [This week’s question from the stressed out consultant was useful in this regard. I don’t want to be in that place, and my work is such that there are tasks that can be offloaded to an assistant to free me up for other work.]

    Question: I’m starting the job posting and interviewing process. Any recommendations of really effective interview questions or types of questions to ask? I have some starters from when I was a hiring manager at past jobs, but I know many folks here have way more experience.

    1. irene adler*

      For a small business, candidates will need to understand that ‘no task is beneath them” and you won’t be hiring folks for them to delegate such tasks to (unless/until the business increases to a significant degree to warrant this). You don’t want to hear the “someone else ought to be doing this chore” talk.
      I work at a small business. And those who kvetch about having to replace the light bulbs themselves or order their own stationery supplies are frowned upon. They don’t get it. There is no one else to do these tasks.

    2. The Man, Becky Lynch*

      You need to find someone with experience in a micro sized company and one that hopefully will be within it’s “growth spurt” phase. This isn’t always easy to do but it’s something to really pay attention to, people from larger scaled companies can sure adjust and some may really want to but you have to be up front with your expectations for being able to do things without a lot of oversight after awhile, since you cannot be hovering around telling your assistant exactly what to do at any given moment of course, that defeats the purpose.

      Just remember it may take some time to find the right fit. You may have someone who looks and sound so great and they don’t work out. Don’t put pressure on yourself too much in finding the right fit perfectly the first go around. It takes time to build your trusty solid crew. You have to kiss some frogs so to speak.

      Also this isn’t part of your question but just to confirm, you have a payroll processing situation set up or ready to roll out, right? Usually a one person show would just be a sole proprietor or LLC that pays themselves out as a 1099, so I’m hoping that you’re ready to take on that payroll step to ensure they are paid within your area’s regulations. No assistant ever should ever be a 1099 employee. I’m sorry if that sounds like I’m assuming the worst but it’s something some don’t think about when transitioning to a bringing in an employee.

      1. A Consultant*

        Yes, I set up as an S-Corp already, have payroll set up and an accountant handling that side of things. It’s a good thing to check. I’m pretty diligent about researching the business side of things and playing by the rules. But I know not everyone is.

  70. Brownie*

    Anyone else in US federal jobs tired of having CBD oil pushed on them as the latest solves-everything cure? My work has actually published a memo saying that CBD usage is a termination offense so I want to stay far far away from it. And yet it’s being pushed at me constantly whenever I go out shopping, even in the pet store! I’d love some scripts as “No, I’m not interested” isn’t stopping the locals from proselytizing at me and I’ve had “No, I’d lose my federal job” hand-waved away as not a real thing because “CBD oil doesn’t contain any THC so they’d never know you’re using it” (actual quote) and so on in that vein.

    1. MissDisplaced*

      Super annoying! I feel like that about the Christians who want to save everyone.
      But the best thing is what you’ve been saying “Not interested, thanks.” And then walk away. Whatever you do, you’re better off not elaborating. Lather rinse and repeat.

    2. BRR*

      “My employer has specifically stated that CBD is usage is a fireable offense so this is not an option for me.” Then if they push back say “I said it’s not an option for me.”

    3. Flat Penny*

      “I’m allergic.” Nobody can really argue with that, unless it turns into “nobody is allergic to CBD oil!” In which case, “nope, I’m allergic.”

    4. Admin of Sys*

      I feel like if people are being pushy enough that saying “my job specifically said we’re not allowed to take CBD” doesn’t make them stop, you get to return the awkward by pointing out that they sound like the highschool kids pushing cigarettes or alcohol from those PSA / afterschool specials.

      1. Brownie*

        This made me snicker and now I want to respond to their pushiness with “I’m still a proud member of D.A.R.E. and you can’t push your drugs on me!”

    5. BadWolf*

      Bland (or even cheerful) repeated “No thank you” and discussion of the weather?

      Maybe, “Sorry, that’s a hard pass for me.”

      I don’t know if there’s an MLM for CBD yet (probably), but I know a lot of sales techniques are to counter any “excuse” you give.

      1. BadWolf*

        Maybe something in a “I’ve looked into it, and it’s not for me.” Might head off a few more people. But might unfortunately encourage conversations with others

    6. Anono-me*

      I would leave your federal job and the cb out of it completely.

      If the repeated interactions are at stores, you may want to find out if these are required scripts for the employees. Lots of places make cashiers and other customer service employees upsell and get X number of “No”s. If so, either say “No, no, X times No.” or complain to their corporate. (Also, if these are not same day interactions, please keep in mind that the cashier may not recognize you and remember that you turned them down 98547 customers ago.)

      On an individual level for any thing like this:
      1st time – A firm but polite “No thank you.”
      2nd time – A firm only, “I said, ‘no thank you.'” Walk away or hang up if possible.
      3rd time – Loudly, clearly and firmly, but not yelling, ” Now you are just being rude and disrespectful. Stop it now.”

    7. Hiring Mgr*

      who is pushing it on you exactly? Random strangers in stores? You don’t owe them anything–“no thanks” should suffice

      1. Lilysparrow*

        Yes, why are you making conversation with these people at all? Where you work or why you don’t want it is none of their freaking business.

        It doesn’t matter if they’re pushing CBD, or a petition, or a flyer, or bootleg DVD’s, or anything else.

        Shake your head and keep walking. If you’re stuck in line or something, say “No thanks” and turn your back.

    8. periwinkle*

      If it’s a friend/acquaintance/co-worker: “No thanks.”
      If they push and I manage to refrain from telling them to f-off: “No. Stop asking, I’m not interested.”

      If it’s a stranger: “No thanks.”
      If they push: “F-off.” or “I said no thanks.” (depending on the situation)

      It helps to be too old to care about being polite anymore. Don’t justify, don’t blame allergies. Channel your inner Nancy Reagan and just say no. I don’t see this as any different than fending off other unwanted merchandise/”health advice”.

      I work for a federal contractor and we periodically receive reminders that even though marijuana is legal for both medical and recreational use in this state (there are at least five pot shops on my route to work, with billboard advertising and Mother’s Day specials and all), we are not permitted to use it. I don’t know if it extends to CBD but considering my local drugstore now has a display case of CBD products, we’ll no doubt get a memo soon.

    9. Sleepytime Tea*

      Weird, I have lived in 2 states where marijuana is legal and have not experienced this type of pushy behavior. But yeah, I would just say “not interested, thanks though” and keep walking, just like I do when someone tries to hand me a flyer I don’t want, tries to get me to sign a petition I don’t want to, tries to sell me whatever. You don’t have to give a reason for why you’re not interested, it’s no-one’s business, and if you do then you’re just giving them the opportunity to open dialogue about it. Don’t give them that opportunity, just like you wouldn’t with anyone else who tries to sell you something you don’t want.

    10. Not A Morning Person*

      It’s more concerning perhaps because it’s untested and unregulated and could cost you your job, but not much different from anyone who is being pushy about something you are not interested in, whether it’s cologne, or nail care, or skin care, or credit cards, or anything else that people hawk in the marketplace. You won’t necessarily get them to stop immediately, but it’s the same response to all of them. “No, thank you.” “No.” “I already said “NO’.” It feels rude at first, but recognize that they are paid to be pushy and you are not in a work or social situation where you are required to consider every offer or even make any kind of explanation. “No” is enough.

  71. Blocking Things Out*

    Just to say thank you to those people who gave me advice last week about how to stop personal/marriage issues interfering at work. I’ve been trying to put them into practice this week and so far it seems to be going OK, particularly particularly the ‘feelings dump’ Google doc, checklists and compartmentalising. I’ve also told one of my directors what’s going on and she’s been incredibly understanding and supportive, checking in with me regularly and saying I can take some flex time if I need it (I haven’t yet, but it’s nice to know it’s there). My line manager is back from his medical leave next week – I did send him an email apologising for dropping the ball and saying I’ve had some things going on at home, but haven’t said more than that yet as I want to get things clear in my own head first.

    I also talked a lot of things out with a couple of friends this week, and have come to a decision I’m OK with for now whilst I get some plans in place. It’s still tough, but things feel a bit brighter now.

  72. Anon For This*

    I’m a regular poster, but going anonymous for this.
    In the last weeks my company downsized and laid-off a lot of employees. Most of these layoffs were from one particular department, a department that, to be honest, was quite bloated for the work it did and really did need to be evaluated and reorganized. However, the company has now reposted many of these same jobs, albeit with only slightly different titles, and sometimes with no change in title. So in essence, they just ‘cleaned house’ and are now hiring those same positions externally, probably for less money. This fact is not lost on remaining employees and morale is at all time low. Not the way to do it.

    1. Anon for Layoffs*

      Not the way to do it and also potentially opening the company up for lawsuits. Doubly so if any of the people laid off were in a protected class and are now being replaced.

      1. MissDisplaced*

        Nothing I can do about it, but I thought the fact that many of the job postings were up before people’s last day was terrible. Just seems like it was rushed without really evaluating people or their roles individually.
        The move really has made me doubt the leadership of the company.

  73. Stuck between options*

    I’m a translator, which is a position that can relatively easily float between full-time employment with a company and freelance on my own. I’m at the beginning of transferring from the first option to the second (with some language tutoring in addition to the translation) but am unsure about the proper steps. For example, how long should I work on building freelance clients? Is there anyone who is in a similar position who has some advice?

  74. tattoos1*

    How can I tell if my new job will be comfortable with my tattoos? I live in NYC, and it’s a professional firm. I have half sleeves & some on my legs that are all plants/animals/abstract art, nothing obscene. I’m going to cover them up initially. Just not sure how to tell if I need to do that every day or not. I haven’t started the job yet.

    1. Four lights*

      It may be in the employee handbook. You could reach out to your person in HR and just ask if they have any policies regarding tattoos.

    2. Ingray*

      You can definitely look around when you start the job to see if others have any visible tattoos but I’d honestly probably just ask. Either ask your manager on your first day or if there’s some kind of orientation process ask then. It’s pretty normal to have questions about the details of dress code type things at the start of a job.

      1. Zona the Great*

        Yes I would call ahead and ask. “I have visible tattoos that I’m adept at covering. I just need to know the dress policy so I can better prepare my wardrobe”. That will open it up for her to tell you that you can have tattoos as long as they are not offensive, that they can never show, or that the office doesn’t care at all.

  75. Cheesecake2.0*

    Awkward situation, plz help.
    I was recently given an award at work for dealing with a rough situation that happened about 18 months ago. The award took a long time as there were investigations to wrap up, etc. My department shared a picture of me on their FB page announcing the award, and I shared the post onto my own page. My mom went to the original post (on my dept’s page) and wrote “Sheesh way to tell your mom! No mom should have to find out about stuff like this on facebook!” (Even though I told her before…she just forgot).

    Cue my awkward cringing. If she had wrote it on MY post I would have ignored it but the post she wrote it on has a bunch of people in my professional network saying congrats and other things. Plus it just looks really, well, selfish (she didn’t say congrats or I’m proud or anything). My older sister (who actually alerted me to the comment) thinks I should make my mom delete her comment.

    Do you think I should ask my mom to delete that? Would you be weirded out if you saw similar on a post about a coworker?

    1. Four lights*

      I would ask your mother politely. “Hey mom, I saw your FB comment about my award. I’m sorry I didn’t let you know sooner! Anyway, the post you commented on is from my company, and is going to be seen by other professionals in my field, and your comment is more personal, so I was hoping you’d delete it.”

      1. Temperance*

        Uh, no. She already told her mother about this award, PRIOR TO THE POST. No need to placate crazy.

    2. Tinker*

      If I saw the parent of a coworker doing that, I would feel sympathy for the coworker. Admittedly I come from a perspective of having experienced some parental misbehavior and hence being unusually unindulgent of such things — but my guess is that most reasonable people would not hold it against you. I’d expect the median position to be something in the domain of “the scolding is perhaps justified or at least typical, I expect to be scolded about such by my parents when I do similar things, but it’s socially awkward to do it in an adult child’s professional space”.

      That said, it’s reasonable for you to ask her to delete the comment, and generally for you to express preferences about how you want to be spoken to/about, on the basis of your own opinion alone. Speaking as a person who has at times tried to come up with convoluted reasons why a thing that I found personally upsetting might impact something “actually important” such as my career or social image — you, yourself, are also important.

    3. Temperance*

      YES. Call her and make her delete that comment, or ask the person who runs your org’s social media to do so. I would think that your mom is wildly inappropriate for doing this.

    4. Lily Rowan*

      I really think most people seeing that would think, “Classic Mom!” and not give it another thought.

      1. Washi*

        Yeah, to be honest I would just find this funny and not think any worse of the employee. Everyone has stuff like this happen sometimes. My husband is a highly skilled computer programmer, and for a while he had a Word skills endorsement on LinkedIn from his mom :)

    5. L. S. Cooper*

      I wouldn’t feel weird about the coworker. If I read that, I’d think “Wow, that person’s mom has some effed up priorities, she can’t even congratulate her child for an award!”. And that’d be about it.

    6. wafflesfriendswork*

      MOM! What *is* it with parents and social media? I wrote a blog post earlier this week and my mom is basically the only one who ever comments, and this week she commented that she liked my post but didn’t want to be “that mom” or the only one who ever comments on my blog. As she commented on my blog. Thanks Mom.

    7. Default Font Size*

      Your mom should delete her comment. While she may have a ‘right’ to comment on your life – she should do it on your page. If she cares about you, she should realize that she should not air her (real or imagined) slights to your company, as it is a ‘conversation’ that should be between you and her.

      TL: DR if she wouldn’t call your boss to verbally complain about it, then she shouldn’t post it to the company site.

    8. BadWolf*

      You could turn it into a joke, “Ha-ha Mom! Sadly, I didn’t get a second award, this is still the one I told you about last year!”

      Unless, of course, you shouldn’t share anything about the timeline of said award publicly.

      Although, you may want to point out that she posted the comment on the public company page and who it is visible too. It can be very easy to not realize where you are posting relative to who can see it.

      1. BadWolf*

        ETA: This depends on the company, if this is going to look bad for you (versus just “Oh moms”), then I’d push for deleting.

        1. Cheesecake2.0*

          Haha well since I asked this question, my grand-boss and the chair of the dept both “liked” her comment so hopefully everyone is just taking it as “oh moms! what ya gonna do?!”

          1. Akcipitrokulo*

            Ah, commented before saw this – if everyone is taking it like that, you should be fine!

      2. BadWolf*

        When I said you could turn it into a joke, I meant you could reply to her comment so it would (hopefully) be more of a funny thing. But, definitely depends on the company.

    9. Akcipitrokulo*

      I’d feel sympathy if you were my colleague…

      Do you know who owns the department FB page – they could delete it for you if you asked them discretely?

    10. MRK*

      Late to this, but could you approach whoever handles your work’s social media about hiding it? Hiding doesn’t delete it but makes it invisible to everyone else. This is usually an option available to the account holder, and while embarrassing I’m sure they would also understand the whole “I’m very sorry, my mother doesn’t quite understand social media.”

  76. Peaches*

    UPDATE FOR ANYONE WHO HAS BEEN FOLLOWING MY COWORKER SAGA!

    Hi all! Sorry I didn’t write in last week (to jog everyone’s memory, I’m the one with the new coworker who was insistent upon using my personal iPad, and who more recently got kicked out of a training session at our corporate office for being overly confrontational and questioning their training methods.)

    Anyway, I don’t have a whole lot to say, as she has mostly ignored me since her big blowout with corporate, but here are a few updates:

    -Friday, 4/5 (the same day as her blowout with corporate/the same day I backed out of our lunch plans): New Coworker, myself, one of our sales managers, Sue, and new coworker’s manager, Bob, were supposed to meet about a big project that I’m going to assist on (but eventually won’t once new coworker gets more comfortable with her job…assuming she’s not let go.) We planned to meet briefly sometime between 2 & 4 P.M., and had to wait for Bob to get back in the office from a meeting. At 2 P.M. sharp (after we’d previously discussed we were all open all afternoon), New Coworker came over to Sue and I insisting that she had to meet ASAP, because she was getting ready to leave for the weekend (our office is open until 4:30 and she’s an hourly employee, so…not sure why she was leaving.) We reminded her that we had to wait for Bob to get back, so we would have to reschedule the meeting since she apparently had to leave. Then, New Coworker up and left the office. About an hour later, I received an email from New Coworker that she’d sent from her phone. It said:

    “Hey, once Bob gets back, you guys should just meet without me, don’t you think? I obviously haven’t been trained and apparently don’t have a good understanding on anything to be able to contribute. I would be useless. Just meet without me and tell me how you want me to handle everything”.

    Of course, I responded and told her that, no, she needed to be there for the meeting (she is literally the main contact point for this project…I think her email was a “poor me” attempt after corporate had gotten onto her for acting like she’s an expert at her job, despite being new.) I told her it’s okay and even expected for her not to know things because she’s new, and the whole point of the meeting is for her to learn.

    Monday, 4/8: We had our meeting Monday morning, and it was…exhausting. Despite being so confrontational that she was kicked out of training with corporate the previous Friday, she was just as confrontational with Bob, Sue, and I and insisted she had a “better” way of doing said project than what we’d envisioned (don’t mind the fact that we’ve been doing this for years, and she just started.) She finally agreed to do things our way after Bob insisted she needed to learn to listen better. It was quite awkward.

    Friday 4/12: We had our annual trade show (150+ customers at our office). New Coworker’s expectation was to help with the show – check guests in, meet customers, etc. Our trade show is truly a full team effort, and everyone helps. But…she didn’t. She sat at her desk with headphones in all day, as if there weren’t 150 customers walking amongst her. As if that wasn’t strange/irritating enough, here’s the real kicker (back to the asking for other’s items). She asked me first thing in the morning if I would be using my computer with the show going on. I said I wouldn’t be until after 1:00 PM, when the show ended. She THEN proceeded to tell me she was “going to borrow my keyboard and mouse because she’d left hers at home.” (this was puzzling because she doesn’t work from home…no clue why she would bring her mouse and keyboard home). I was SO busy with the trade show, I had no time to even deal with her. So, she proceeded to take my keyboard and mouse, and hook them up to her computer. When I finally got back to my desk at 1:00, New Coworker was gone (left for the day…again, not sure why), and my mouse and keyboard were still hooked up to her computer. I had to unhook/rehook everything myself, since she hadn’t bothered doing that herself. I sent her an email telling her that if she borrows something from me to please put it back where she found it. She responded (you know, from her phone since she just up and left again during normal business hours) with, “oh sorry! My brain is fogged, I just forgot!”

    Since then…she literally has not spoken to me at all (we’re a small office, so this is hard to do!) I have to work with her on a project on Monday, so I’m hoping she’s not too difficult, but I don’t have high hopes based on everything that’s happened!

    1. Peaches*

      Update: she just left for the weekend. It’s 11:05 A.M. here. I just heard her say to her boss, Bob, that she was leaving because of all the OT she worked this week…I’m fairly certain she didn’t work any OT (also, I’m not sure if this is the reason she’s left so early the past two Fridays.) I was in her position for two years and worked maybe a total of 5-10 hours of OT over that time span. It’s just not the nature of the position to work OT. Based on everything, her lying about hours wouldn’t surprise me. Not sure if I should even broach that topic with anyone, though!

      FWIW, I’m not trying to be a timekeeping police – I’m just genuinely worried that she’s stealing company money by recording OT that she didn’t actually work.

      1. Ali G*

        I’m also concerned she’s stealing company property. First her Ipad and now her keyboard and mouse? Did her Ipad ever reappear? She’s all around shady. You might consider a conversation with Bob.

        1. Peaches*

          I have actually seen her iPad at her desk since she’s attempted to use mine (or, at least A iPad – I guess it could be a personal iPad).

          The keyboard/mouse situation is a bit more shady, though. I’m 100% sure the keyboard & mouse currently at her desk are NOT the ones that were there when I worked at that desk (she took over my old computer, so I THOUGHT she’d have my old keyboard/mouse as well, but she doesn’t.) Not sure what happened to those.

          I am considering talking to Bob about all of this.

            1. valentine*

              Calmly ask Bob for advice about what to do when she suddenly leaves early and ask if she can have a secondary set of equipment available in case she leaves the first at home. He should be more tuned in to her nonsense.

              1. valentine*

                Bob is the larger problem here. He should’ve shut her down in the meeting.

                And when she insists on things, you can redirect her to Bob. She has to leave suddenly? “Contact Bob or wait for him to get back.” Meet without her or other weird directives? *forward message to Bob*

                When will you know the sweet embrace of liberation?

      2. CatCat*

        Whut.

        Sounds like New Coworker is seriously not working out. It seems clear she does not want to be at this job.

        Since you don’t really know the deal with OT, I don’t know if I’d bring that up unless Bob asks about it and then you can relay your experience in the position with OT. But definitely there are concrete things you do know and don’t have to speculate on that he should know. “New Coworker did not help with the trade show, but I understood she was meant to be checking people in and greeting customers. She ignored the customers and didn’t check anyone in. She also borrowed my computer equipment that day because she said she left hers at home. I found this concerning since she does not work from home.”

        She sounds like a real piece of work.

    2. ..Kat..*

      I guess I don’t understand why no one told her on 4/12 to take her headphones off and start doing X, Y, and Z. If Bob is her manager, why didn’t he do this?

  77. Washi*

    What personal things do you do at work when you don’t have enough to do? I am just a lot more efficient than my coworkers, so I get through what is considered a high workload, plus extra projects I’ve taken the initiative on, and still often have thumb twiddling time. I can’t just straight up watch Netflix or read a book, but I do make all my appointments, schedule my social life, write long emails to my friends, and read random articles online. I did 99% of my grad school applications at work as well, but now that I’ve applied, that source of amusement is gone.

    Anything else that people do that looks plausibly like work in their downtime?

    3. Cheesecake2.0*

      I look for trainings/conferences that might be useful to take/attend. Also e-books, definitely. g-chat with my husband (he has a lot of downtime too). I clean and reorganize my office a lot. It’s way nicer than my house haha.

    4. Weegie*

      I wrote a novel; didn’t look any different from writing a report. It’s with an agent now :-)

      I also kept a blog for a while – that’s quite a good activity, because the posts are usually quite short and can be worked on in bursts around bona fide tasks.

  78. Deryn*

    Last week I mentioned how burnt out I was feeling, especially due to two challenging employees (that I supervise, but do not have final authority on). Y’all, my biggest problem just put in her two weeks! It is AMAZING how fast my mood has buoyed back up in light of this news. I’m annoyed that I let someone acting ridiculous have that sort of effect on me, but really I’m just glad it’s over. It means a lot more work for me to pick up her tasks, but I don’t even care. I will definitely be celebrating this weekend!

  79. gbca*

    I’m actively job searching, and something has come up that’s concerning to me. Twice now, an interviewer has commented that I look concerned or worried. To be fair, in one case it was an interviewer who was telling me how awful the job was (yes, it was a strange interview). In the other (at a different company), the hiring manager was explaining the role. It was a little complex, so I was just processing the information. And in either case, I really didn’t feel like I was making a concerned expression! Looking back, I’ve gotten this feedback here and there, where people have said I looked like something was wrong when I haven’t felt that way. I think my “processing information” face gives off a worried/concerned vibe.

    Obviously this is an issue while job searching! Any tips for what I can do about it? I’ve heard of resting b*tch face, but nothing about resting concerned face!

    1. Catsaber*

      One thing that comes to mind – are you really silent when concentrating? If you are silent + concentrating face, it might come off as worried. You could try being more of an active listener so that whatever expression shows up on your face isn’t emphasized by silence.

      Can you role play with a friend and get their feedback on how you come across? Btw I totally get where you’re coming from, I definitely go into “concentration/business mode” in interviews. A lot of times I come off looking scared. Which I usually am in interviews though!

      1. irene adler*

        Good point!
        Can you do a slight nod of the head along with a verbal “I see” or “uh-huh” to show you are receiving their words?
        (you don’t need to do this continuously or every time. Just throw a couple of nods in.)

        I think I know what you are referring to. Early this week I was at the grocery store, deep in thought, when someone startled me with “Are you alright? Is everything okay? Do you need some help?”

        Apparently the look on my face made it seem that I was distraught. And this kind lady wanted to do something to ease my situation. Everything was fine, I assured her (and thanked her too!). I guess I just have that kind of face that makes folks think otherwise.

      2. Justin*

        Yes, I had to learn and practice this myself. Sometimes I look away to compose myself then return, nod, offer some small quiet responses, that sort of thing. But I had to work on it.

    2. Washi*

      Maybe try to smile very slightly while nodding? Like not a full smile, just the closed-mouth upturned corners kind that also helps your eyes “smile.”

      I’m helping to train a coworker now who is not very smiley and doesn’t react at all as I explain things, and it’s sort of weird to give someone an explanation of something without any visual cues that they are listening and following. (It’s fine because I know her and trust she’s absorbing what I’m saying, but I can imagine that in an interview she might have a similar problem.)

    3. gbca*

      Thanks, all. I’ll definitely practice doing more active listening with little responses thrown in, as well as trying to have a slightly more upturned mouth.

      My husband says he thinks the problem is that I’m always thinking so hard and need time to process things before I speak. It’s true. I try hard to just listen but my brain is always working.

  80. JustaTech*

    TL;DR How do I tell if an arbitration agreement is normal or terrible?

    Long version: my company (I’ve been here 8 years but we’ve been through several major changes of management/ corporate overlords) has just asked everyone to sign an arbitration agreement. The agreement says that for everything except unemployment and worker’s comp, any legal issues between employees and the company must go through arbitration rather than the courts. This includes class action lawsuits. It also limits the amount of discovery and the number of witnesses.
    The state I live in is pretty “business friendly” so (unlike California) there’s no getting out of any part of this based on state courts.

    Word through the grapevine is that we don’t *have* to sign, but if we don’t we aren’t eligible for bonuses or raises in the future. The other word through the grapevine is that this arbitration is being pushed because one site is regularly sued for racial discrimination and HQ is worried people are ramping up for a class-action lawsuit about it.

    IMO, all arbitration sucks because it’s always in favor of the company, but does this sound worse than most? Or do I just need to accept that working in the US means I don’t have a lot of rights? (There’s no union and the site with all the issues is in a very non-union state.)

    1. Four lights*

      I would ask someone straight out if you have to sign, and if not will there be any consequences.

    2. Glomarization, Esq.*

      Without seeing the language myself, it does sound like it hits a lot of the same points that most binding arbitration agreements hit.

      I agree with the suggestion to ask about the consequences for not signing, rather than relying on the grapevine. Also, consider taking it to a lawyer so they can “translate” it for you (the boilerplate at the end of the agreement likely states something along the lines of “I have had access to legal counsel to review this agreement before I signed it and I understand it completely” anyway).

      Since you’ve been there 8 years, it could be that you have enough capital to decline signing it without harming your relationships there, as well.

    3. Kathenus*

      Agree with the other commenters about asking very specifically about whether or not you have to sign, and what consequences there will be if you don’t. Do it in writing, and get their response in writing, and forward all this to your personal email for your records. Obviously you need to decide what works for you and your life once you know more, but as you’ve already mentioned these are really terrible and companies are starting to roll them back in some areas. So sorry yours is going the other direction.

    4. gbca*

      Hmm – I realize it’s a pain (and $$) to take this to a lawyer, but I’d be really curious to see what a lawyer has to say about this. Requiring binding arbitration to avoid being sued over racial discrimination (which violates federal law, I believe) seems incredibly fishy to me. But admittedly I don’t know much about this.

  81. High Standards*

    Has anyone ever worked at a place where basically nobody meets performance standards?

    A few years again the nonprofit I work for had a really tough year financially. Part of the response was hiring our first-ever CFO. I’ve met him a few times and he is clearly a logic and numbers guy who is pretty disconnected from the actual work that is the mission of our nonprofit.

    So right now we’re 3/4 of the way through our fiscal year. I was looking at the numbers and fully 2/3 of the workers in our program are failing to meet their productivity standards. The solution from the higher-ups is basically that we managers need to SUPER micro manage people’s time and put anyone who doesn’t shape up on a PIP. But am I crazy to think that if 2/3 of people can’t meet the standards….maybe the standards are the problem? We’re talking about a group of people who are working VERY hard and who are making an annual income in the low $30k range. People are not falling over themselves for these jobs. Yes we have a few top performers who meet standards but they typically burn out in a couple of years. Several people have expressed to me that the only way they meet standards is to work more than 40 hours a week (with everything over 40 hours being unofficial and unpaid as they are not exempt and we don’t generally authorize overtime.) (Yes I know that this is illegal and as a manager I actively discourage it whenever it comes up.) I don’t think the job pays enough to attract an entire team of top performers and I think the type of micromanaging they are insisting on is going to be super demoralizing.

    The higher-ups are pretty unlikely to listen to my concerns but I guess I just want to know if anyone has been in a similar position and that I am not crazy for thinking maybe the system is problem rather than that 2/3 of our workforce just suck at their jobs.

    1. MsM*

      Nope, not crazy. Hopefully the higher-ups will listen to you, but unfortunately, I think you’re right to keep your expectations low.

    2. LGC*

      Woof. So, there’s a lot to deal with here, and I’m going to apologize if I come off a little harsh. (I believe you have the best intentions.)

      The major issue, I think, is the unpaid OT. That’s 1) pretty illegal and something I have zero tolerance for myself (where I’ll literally tell people that they can’t do this) and 2) is almost certainly skewing your KPIs. Management as a whole needs to stop this immediately, and be as transparent with OT as possible to get an accurate assessment of what output should look like based off of a 40 hour work week.

      Or, if I had to guess, they’re assuming that – let’s say – a worker can sort 1000 boxes of animal crackers per 40-hour work week, but the top performers are sorting 1000 boxes in a 50-hour work week.

      I was going to go into the weeds on the direct question, but…that’ll be a response in itself. So, yeah – address the unpaid OT immediately. No one who’s non-exempt should be doing that because that’s the point of being non-exempt.

      1. LGC*

        Okay, on the actual metrics: tl;dr – I’m unsure, but I agree with you. They might listen, but you have to speak their language. (I actually just went through this myself!)

        So, on the benchmarks/KPIs: My initial hunch is to agree with you, and furthermore I feel like if you’re considering putting the majority of your employees on PIPs that speaks to wider issues regardless of their actual performance.

        But given the org’s financial troubles in the past, I can’t dismiss the notion that…maybe the benchmarks are the actual numbers you need to produce to be sustainable. There’s quite a few problems with that – for starters, y’all might need to re-negotiate your rates if you haven’t already, if the only way for you guys to be sustainable is to have some people violate labor law – but I think the primary concern should be what is minimally sustainable. Only after that do you want to worry about what’s fair – and personally, I’d want to aim for a benchmark that’s reasonable (so like somewhere around the median performer). And then draft PIPs for…like, people who are performing significantly under that.

        Anyway, so – I actually had to do a similar study myself, partly because the bigwig that used to be in charge of it left. When I re-evaluated my department’s benchmarks, I found two things:

        1) they were in units that caused confusion (so…let’s say the benchmarks were in cases of animal crackers, when we bill by boxes – and everyone thought the benchmarks were done with boxes)
        2) they…didn’t reflect the reality of the work performed, especially since the projects had changed in scope and specification since they first started (2012 for one, and 2014 for another)

        So, I had to explain and demonstrate that upper management was wrong in their assumptions (by replicating it in cases), explaining that I thought a better approach would be to use boxes because that’s what everyone sees, showing the alternate report in boxes, and then suggesting new benchmarks based on boxes. (In some cases, I ended up dropping the benchmarks by up to 30%.) Which was difficult, especially since I’m the numbers guy and…the rest of management isn’t! (It took me two tries!)

        That’s probably the difficult thing – with the CFO (if he’s the one directing your banana crackers KPIs), you’re probably going to want to explain that while – yeah – Wakeen is putting out 1000 boxes of animal crackers a week, he’s also working 50 hours a week to do so. So he’s still doing 20 boxes an hour…same as Percival, who works only 40 hours a week, but only puts out 800 boxes and is thus at risk of being put on a PIP. And while Tangerina can do 25 boxes per hour, she’s been sorting animal crackers for 10 years and is therefore really good at it – and she’s 25% faster than anyone else on the team. I’m not sure how things would work with the rest of management, but if they’re like my management team, they are…more action-oriented than question-oriented (that is, if the C-levels tell them something’s a problem, they’re more worried about how to fix it than whether it actually is a problem).

        It’s probably going to spend quite a bit of capital – in my case, I have a fair amount because I’m the resident data nerd (although not a good one – I’ve overloaded our servers more than once), but I think that it might be worth it.

        And now I’m hungry.

        1. High Standards*

          Thanks for taking the time to give me all your input. Unfortunately I don’t know enough to know what the numbers would need to be to be sustainable, though I assume trying to get us into better financial shape is the driving force behind this push. The thing is the really poor year was driven by factors outside of our control (to borrow your analogy, we had about three months where people had a very limited number of animal crackers to work with due to a natural disaster interrupting our supply.) And this seems more likely to cause a lot of staff turnover, which also negatively impacts our budget as it typically takes a few months to get new workers up to speed, not to mention the fact that it negatively impacts our ability to perform our mission. Again, I really appreciate your input, you’ve definitely given me some things to think about.

          1. LGC*

            No problem!

            Anyway, I’m really verbose (obviously), but I think that you should still push back on it, even if you don’t have all the information. It’s been my experience that “they’re not working hard enough” is 1) demoralizing and 2) usually wrong, when applied to an entire team. It’s just that it could be possible that there’s something inefficient in the workflow causing hangups.

            It also sounds like your manager…is the problem here. (I am really judgmental today.) It sounds like your CFO is actually in your corner with regards to unpaid OT, but she needs to get on board. She needs to understand that this is a huge deal and if this is reported your organization can be liable for back wages to any employees that worked unpaid. (And yeah, this is a hill I think is worth dying on, and – again – your CFO said specifically not to have employees work unpaid OT.) As for the CFO, he’ll likely get with the program once he sees productivity fall off a cliff.

      2. High Standards*

        As far as the unpaid OT goes, this was actually brought to the CFO’s attention during a meeting I was part of and he looked like his head was about to explode and said in no uncertain terms that it was not to happen. But he didn’t seem take in what it meant in terms of staff productivity or to consider WHY people are doing it.

        It’s very difficult for me because the stance of my own manager is “of course we can’t require people to work off the clock but if they choose to do so because it makes them happy to be more caught up on work I think it’s OK.” And every time she brings it up I try to remind her that it’s illegal and not OK and we could get sued for it. But it’s tough to do that too strongly to my own manager.

        1. That Girl From Quinn's House*

          “of course we can’t require people to work off the clock but if they choose to do so because it makes them happy to be more caught up on work I think it’s OK.”

          What your manager is actually saying is: We expect people to work off the clock to get their work done, but we can’t go on the record legally as saying that, so we are going to twist words to make it look like their decision when it isn’t.

          I get where you’re coming from, I’ve logged thousands of hours of off the clock work at a nonprofit. It sucks.

    3. BRR*

      I feel like I work for the exception where most people aren’t meeting standards but usually I’d be suspicious that so many people aren’t meeting standards. Are there any professional organizations that have industry standards you can compare your organization’s standards to?

      1. Washi*

        Yeah, I work somewhere where a lot of people aren’t meeting standards. Most of the workforce has been here for many many years and have gotten used to a pace of work that I would consider leisurely at best.

        Just checking, are you sure that the high performers who leave after a few years left because they were burned out, not because they were tired of working with a lot of low performers? That’s the only alternative explanation I can think of. Because otherwise, it sounds like the classic nonprofit problem of wanting “rock stars” while paying peanuts.

        1. High Standards*

          It’s an interesting thought, but I doubt it since the low performers’ work doesn’t directly impact the work of the high performers. I have heard one of the higher performers complain about the lower performers complaining (“I don’t know why their complaining, it’s not that hard” type of stuff), but I have had many more conversations about people who feel the extra effort they are putting in is not sustainable. (A lot of people come to me to vent due to the nature of my position.)

    4. Community Mental Health for the Win!*

      It may depend on the specific type of work, but I would explore why people are having trouble meeting targets. I work in community mental health. Picture lots of no-shows with no reimbursement, low rates even when clients show up, low salaries, etc. We have really tightened up on the no-show policy and have gotten better at setting realistic targets- like when we know one week will be low, we factor that into our projections. We’ve also added monetary incentives for employees who do hit targets since we can’t drastically increase salaries. Good luck!

    5. Kathenus*

      I definitely think the standards are part of the issue, there’s certainly a disconnect somewhere – hired the wrong staff, staff not trained properly, expectations too high, combinations of these. I’d consider time budgets, something I’ve used very successfully numerous times in my career and we’re currently doing right now in my department. Basically, capture what people are doing right now – how much time in each task. For different people in the same position, use the same format/template so you can compare information. Sometimes you also have a manager (if experienced in the technical aspects) do the job and complete a time budget as well as one of the data points for comparison.

      Then look at the information – where is the time going? Is there a wildly different amount of time it takes different people to do the same task? Are the tasks being done the priorities of the position? And so on. This data can be very helpful in fine tuning performance, deciding on prioritization, justifying staffing needs, setting realistic expectations, and more. This sounds like a crazy situation, I wish you the best of luck trying to make progress.

  82. JunieB*

    I’d like some job application advice.

    I’ve worked in several fields in the past ten years—food service, education, scientific research, writing, and disability support. I’m not a job hopper; many of those jobs overlapped because I tend to have a full-time job and one or two part-time ones at a time. My supervisors have all thought highly of me and I have a solid work and education history, but I know that my résumé looks odd and it’s hard to tailor it by showing only jobs that seem directly relevant to the one I’m applying for.

    The thing is, I genuinely believe that every job I’ve had has made me a better candidate in some way for the jobs that followed. You know how it is. The detail work of rice sculpting makes you a more effective teapot painter, the fast paced environment of the teapot factory prepares you for the intensity of the llama grooming salon, and calming a roomful of angry wet llamas sets you up to handle the average lunch rush in a fast food restaurant.

    My question is, can I communicate that idea in my cover letter without seeming disingenuous? As a hiring manager, does “My eclectic work history has given me many applicable skills” seem like a compelling point, or just an excuse?

    1. FD*

      I think you have to frame it more specifically. So for instance, what I’ve done is to pick the skills from my past jobs that seem most relevant to the job I’m applying for and talk about that in my cover letter. When done well, I think it lets you use your cover letter to show how apparently unrelated job experience is actually relevant.

    2. Kathenus*

      I LOVE your sentence about the eclectic work experience/applicable skills! Follow that up with specific examples as FD mentions – not a laundry list of each job and how it applies, but a selection of the most applicable. I think that’s a great approach to take.

  83. Optimism*

    I work in retail, and I recently had an interation with my manager that was deeply uncomfortable and ruined any trust I have in them.

    My problem is, a job application I put in awhile back has just gotten offering an interview (hooray!) But… My manager is one of my referances. What do I do? Should I supply an alternative reference at interview? If so, how can I without wrecking my own chances?

    1. Catsaber*

      If I’m understanding this correctly, you were using your current manager as a reference, and now no longer want to do that. Which is totally okay – most people don’t use their current managers as a reference because they don’t want to jeopardize their job.

      It will be totally fine to use a difference reference. It would be good to use a coworker at your current job if you can, but if not, then former managers/coworkers are good too. I don’t think it’s going to wreck your chances at all because it’s so common to not use the current manager.

    2. Lucette Kensack*

      It’s so normal not to use your current manager as a reference! If you get to that stage, I think you can say something like “I’d prefer not to bring my current manager into this process, as she doesn’t know that I’m job searching. Could I send over another reference as a substitute?”

    3. Sleepytime Tea*

      Especially if you applied awhile back, you could easily just say “I have an updated list of references to provide you with” and just give them a new list with the manager removed.

  84. saturninus*

    I’ve already received one promotion with a much better title and a minimal raise ($600 a year!). I knew that I planned to use this promotion to learn new things and eventually find work elsewhere. I believe I am going to be offered additional responsibilities (and a possible title bump) at work soon. How can I tell them that I would like to stay where I am unless this new work comes with a significant salary increase?

    1. revueller*

      probably wait until they offer you the additional responsibilities and then turn them down. allison has some language about politely declining these sort of things, i believe.

  85. Tedious Cat*

    I have an internal interview Monday for a promotion I’d really like. I think I stand a good shot but it is absolutely not a done deal. I’ve been looking through the archives for tips on internal interviewing (take it seriously, don’t assume they already know everything you’ve done, remember you already know these people), but does anyone have any thoughts to share? I’ve never had an internal interview before and I’m wondering what pitfalls to look out for.

    1. Kathenus*

      As you note, take it as seriously as you would for an external interview – dress professionally, be prepared, you can be friendly with the interviewers but don’t fall into being overly familiar during the interview itself. Think about and be prepared to give specific examples of how your current job will be applicable to success in the new one, and this includes things like knowing the people/culture/processes as well as specific job tasks. Maybe ask what parts/aspects of the position you may not fully understand or know about, even though you are a current employee. Possibly ask what skills or tasks are involved with the new position that you don’t currently utilize in your current one, and then you can address some of these with how your other experience/history/skills would be beneficial in learning these new things. Talk about what you like about the company, your current position, and why you’re excited about the new role. It’s kind of a balancing act of being professional/respectful as if it’s an external position, while leveraging the fact that you are already in the organization. Good luck.

  86. Jan Levinson*

    What an amazing start to the weekend!

    My husband is a PA (physician assistant), one year post graduation. He has been working a decent job, but the hours are insanely long (even for this field) and the pay is on the lower end of average. Last week, an acquaintance from church (who is also a PA), texted my husband that she was leaving her current position because she is moving, and wanted to know if he was interested in it.

    One thing quickly led to another, and he just got a job offer today!! The kicker though? It’s a $40,000 pay raise, which is practically unheard of in his position. Along with the pay, the vacation, work/life balance, and benefits are astronomically better than his current job. I’m so proud of him.

    On a more personal note, because he’ll be working for one of the nation’s top health systems, the health benefits are going to be life changing for us (a lot of very expensive treatments are free, or at significant discounts). We’ll likely be needing fertility treatments (as we approach the year mark of trying and failing to get pregnant, and being diagnosed with unexplained infertility). His raise, along with the health benefits, will be a HUGE blessing to us.

  87. softcastle mccormick*

    Question:

    Where do you draw the line with social media and employees? I’m a team lead, and fairly lax in my opinions of coworkers posting on social media. As long as they aren’t in a customer facing role, and publicly claiming to be a part of the company, I think folks should be allowed to post what they wish.

    I am team lead of a group of people in a small company. My one teammate has is obsessed with Twitter, and frequently shows us posts she thinks are humorous or interesting. She is very vocal about her handle, and mentions Twitter in some capacity multiple times a day. On a lark, I went to her Twitter out of boredom, and was kind of shocked–it’s filled with full nude photos of her (face included), NSFW videos of herself, sugar baby solicitations, etc. What really struck me, though, were photos of herself that she had posted in her car on our work campus, smoking weed and masturbating during lunch breaks. I was kind of shocked. She’s definitely an over-sharer who crosses work boundaries (we’ve had chats about this, numerous times), but her work is consistent and she’s bright. She also has a lot of cruel comments about our team. Do I have a duty to report this, even though her Twitter isn’t company facing?

    1. Peaches*

      Oh. My. Gosh.

      I would say yes, you have the duty to report this. Especially, since I’m assuming, she is using her real name. The fact that she mentions Twitter several times a day makes me think she WANTED you and other coworkers to look at her account. If the nude photos with her face aren’t bad enough, surely MASTURBATING AND DOING DRUGS on work property are.

      1. JunieB*

        I agree. To me, the frequent mentions of her handle even edge a little into sexual harassment territory, as she’s intentionally raising the odds of someone unwillingly encountering her nude photos.

      2. softcastle mccormick*

        Yes, her handle is a combination of her first and last name, but you couldn’t stumble across it if you search her full name, if that makes sense. I’m just baffled. She thinks of us as her “girlfriends,” rather than coworkers, so we get a LOT of personal details and information that aren’t work appropriate. Any time it’s brought up it gets better for a time, but then she slips back into bad habits

      1. softcastle mccormick*

        That’s the thing–it isn’t. She’s taken photos of our office space, her desk, etc. But there is nothing saying “I work for Company X” or brand hashtags, etc.

        1. irene adler*

          So there’s nothing in the background (even if the pics are enlarged) that’s telltale?

    4. MissDisplaced*

      Oh wow! Like come on people, if you’re getting into kink at LEAST use a fake screen name, persona or
      nom de plume!!!!!! WTF is wrong with you?

      I guess you have to ask yourself:
      Is she recognizable as being an employee of the company?
      Can she be directly connected to the company?
      Is her Twitter damaging to the company?
      Were the photos of her smoking weed/masturbating on campus real or just staged for shock value?

      I also hate for people to be fired for what the say or do on their own personal social feeds, unless it directly can damage the company if connected. But if the drug use actions are real and were done on company property it’s grounds for immediate dismissal. And what a stupid thing for her to do.

    5. Ask a Manager* Post author

      Ahhhh, per the note at the top, please don’t post questions here soon after you’ve sent them into me. I had an answer to this partly written that now I can’t use.

      3. softcastle mccormick*

        She posted another one last night so I got really desperate. Sincere apologies.

      4. Washi*

        You’ve noted in the past that a very small percentage of readers look at the comments – could you still post in anyway? I would also be curious about your answer!

        1. BadWolf*

          I do see people comment in the comments, “Is this a repeat? Did I already see this? Did you take this from a comment?” on the few times there’s been comments and letters.

    6. RandomU...*

      The fact that she is posting from work absolutely brings this solidly into your scope of duty.

      Yes, you need to report this and get advisement from your HR group on how to proceed.

      1. valentine*

        Yes, report her for the on-campus stuff. I think that renders the rest of it worse than it might be if there were no mention of work on her Twitter.

        Lead by example: Refuse to be her audience and ask your manager to back you up on the overall oversharing and girlfriends nonsense. The manager should have a serious conversation with her about boundaries and professionalism.

    7. LGC*

      …okay, I know where Jane ended up now. (Did we get an update to that letter? If not, and if the LW for that letter is reading this, help a brother out. I’ll link in the response to this comment.)

      Okay. Anyway. This is…tricky. Strictly speaking, I don’t know if you have a duty to report her Twitter, since you said your company isn’t identifiable from her social media posts. I do think that you need to ask her to stop talking about her Twitter specifically, and you probably should have when you found out about her Twitter profile.

      I’m not entirely sure because I agree that people should be able to have the social media presences they’d like to have, but if she’s engaging in illegal acts (probably the masturbation, which I’m guessing would be public lewdness) or acts that violate company policy (getting high when she’s on break – I’m guessing your company doesn’t allow employees to be intoxicated on the job), then I think you need to report her. (If she’s not noticeably impaired after smoking, the latter gets a bit more tricky, depending on where you’re located.)

      But to be honest…she sounds like she’s a bad employee. She overshares to the point of discomfort (and has not fixed her behavior after multiple discussions), and she’s abusive to other team members. She might put out good product, but she sounds like a bad influence on your team in general. I don’t know if I’d jump directly to firing, but I’m surprised you didn’t mention whether termination was on the table (perhaps because you’re a TL and might not have any influence).

        1. softcastle mccormick*

          Also, HOLY !@#$. That sounds EXACTLY like our “Jane,” down to the middle aged divorcee looking for new sex partners. I’m actively shocked.

      2. softcastle mccormick*

        So, a big part of this is that: 1) Our team supervisor (who had hire/fire power) left and was never replaced last summer, which means that 2) Our very busy, hands-off grandboss is the only one who supervises us, and 3) she only stops by once or twice a week, and never catches this woman in her full glory. Also, 4)this woman had to work very closely with our boss during a super busy period of work, so they formed a somewhat close relationship. It’s a very classic Dwight Schrute/Charles Wallace situation, if Dwight were just totally inappropriate. The final piece of the puzzle is that our department is slightly desperate to keep us–there was a lot of weird turnover last year and behavior that might otherwise be questionable is overlooked for the sake of keeping warm bodies in the seats.

        Also, no, she’s not noticeably impaired. She’s a very avid smoker (she’s vocal about this) so her tolerance is very high, and she’s good at hiding it. She’s told me that she smokes before, during, and after work.

        1. softcastle mccormick*

          Also, to be clear, we are not in a legal state. Weed isn’t something I clutch my pearls over, so to speak, but the pictures of it in her car on campus really took it a step too far for me. It took it from, like, vague references to actual, timestamped bits of proof to doing it during work

          1. Not Me*

            She’s committing a crime on company property and probably on company time. I personally think weed should be legal just like alcohol, until it is though her smoking pot at work puts her employer is in a very bad position. The nudity is equally as bad.

    8. Sleepytime Tea*

      Ok, so… ok. Ok. OK. I’m just trying to get my brain wrapped around this here.

      She took it upon herself to advertise her Twitter constantly at work. She therefore put her in a situation where her co-workers had a certain likelihood of seeing her activity, and recognizing that some of it was taking place at work.

      I would definitely report this. To me it isn’t so much an issue about whether or not she has associated herself with the company, but because she has photos of herself doing drugs during the work day, on campus. THAT is something that should be reported to HR. I would try to keep sensationalism out of this as much as possible. I would go to HR and say “Jenny frequently advertises her Twitter handle at work and so I looked at her account the other day. She has posted photos of herself doing marijuana on campus during the work day, and I felt a duty to report that.” If they ask for her twitter handle then give it. Let them handle it from there.

  88. dealing with dragons*

    we just had an office block open up on my floor, so my group is all moving together instead of being on two different floors. apparently someone in the office block who was quitting promised his office to someone else. this person has no team members in our local campus. the promised office is right in the middle, and our “lounge” area where we’ve been holding meetings for 6 years is right outside of this office. so now every day during our morning meeting, and on several weekdays he’s going to be in the middle of our meetings?

    the person on my team who was set for that spot has been trying to work this out with our facilities team (who is apparently ok with someone promising an office) and last night between 5:40 pm (when I left) and 9am (when I got to work this morning) the dude just moved into the office.

    I just…..can’t imagine spending your political capital on this? our old offices opened up, and they get as much sun as this in-dispute office, and he’s not got anyone to sit with so feasibly he could be anywhere. it shows such poor judgement. the person who promised him this office has left the company, so what in the world does that promise even mean? and our whole team knew him personally, so I imagine if he were still here, but say had moved to another area, he’d not have made the promise.

    it blows my mind and I can’t get over it lol

    1. dealing with dragons*

      addendum – apparently just someone squatting but with the door closed. only in for today lol

  89. nom de plume*

    I need a reality check about an issue with a member of my team that is seriously trying my patience. I have managed “Priscilla” for about 8 months on a demanding project. Two other people are also part of the team – I am the most senior in status, and the project leader – but her role is key since she’s the main technical person. It’s important to note that we work at a seriously dysfunctional organisation with poor management practices and heavy workloads, though I’ve been careful not to repeat those patterns within my team.

    Anyway, about three weeks ago, completely out of the blue and at a key point for the project, Priscilla went on unannounced leave for two weeks – I am in a (non-US) country where labour laws are strong and medical leave is complacently given out. I wouldn’t have been skeptical but for the fact that one of my colleagues, who has repeatedly clashed with management, had similarly decided a week earlier to ask her doctor for time off work – partly because of stress, certainly, but mainly because she wanted to teach management a lesson (her words). Priscilla and colleague are friendly and have the same doctor.

    While Priscilla was away, she only communicated with me to ask – somewhat rudely – that I approve three weeks of accumulated leave that would have her back in the office for a mere two weeks before her contract expired. She didn’t acknowledge her absence, she didn’t address its consequences for the team, and when she returned, she didn’t check back in with me (I was traveling for work). Of course, she may well have been unwell or burnt-out, but the whole thing felt iffy.

    Given our workload and other pressing issues, I didn’t bring it up (I couldn’t very well question her leave, which was formally labelled as medical) and put my energies instead into advocating for a contract extension for her until the end of the project, since she’s otherwise been a strong performer. After much drama and back-in-forth, she seems determined to leave, which is fine.

    Still, yesterday, we outlined her remaining duties, I explained to her that the handover she needed to perform meant I could not grant her the whole of May off, and we set the date of her last day. She said she’d “prefer” to leave a day earlier, but I explained that there was a lot to do, the timeline was short, and we could revisit that in a week once we had a better sense of how the handover was going. She agreed.

    She then went to talk to sick-leave-stick-it-to’em colleague, and upon getting home, I saw that, despite our agreement, Priscilla had asked for that last day off through our online system, with no accompanying explanation. This really annoyed me. I have been about as accommodating and transparent as I can be trying to balance her absences, the tremendous project workload, her back and forth of will-she-won’t-she stay, and I am now feeling extremely put out that she is going back on our conversation based on her “preferred timeline” for leaving. I also suspect that senior colleague had something to do with it, but that’s a whole other can of toxicity for which I don’t have the energy. Regardless, I am not inclined to grant that day to her.

    Am I being unreasonable here? It may just be a day, but it makes a difference to the project and to the knowledge transfer duties, and the whole episode just reeks of a “screw you” attitude and lack of professionalism. I feel stuck because, if I don’t grant it to her, she will likely just chuck a sick day anyway. But I was really taken aback by her action, not 30 minutes after we’d reached an agreement. For context, we have usually got along fine, I have advocated for her multiple times to get her tangible benefits, and I have been clear that she could come to me with issues (yes, I realise that there’s no guarantee someone will do that, but still). I’m *not* asking for thanks or loyalty, but I am asking that she be professional until the end – at least an explanation for why she’d suddenly change her mind would not go astray after her previous drama.

    Thoughts?

    1. Aspiring Chicken Lady*

      Just get what you can out of her and let her go. What explanation would actually make a difference here?

      There’s no sense arguing details with someone who is halfway out the door.

      1. nom de plume*

        You’re right, though it’s not so much an explanation I want, but rather some good faith I guess. I granted her as much of her leave as I was reasonable given the circumstances, so this last piece just felt gratuitously and kind of the last straw.

        But point taken.

        1. valentine*

          In the US, it’s right for her not to contact you while out on medical leave because that’s work and she’s supposedly unable to work. (If she’s otherwise a kind person, maybe her pain is the source of the rudeness.) You’re too annoyed about this, especially when you hold all(?) the cards, even if she were a nightmare. Of course she wants to use her leave (Is paying it out not an option?) rather than lose that time/money. Restrict the leave to any post-handover time: She finishes with x days/weeks left, she leaves, but gets x days/weeks as paid leave, with the last day of leave being her official last day. But if you think she’d fake it just to get out early and maximize the leave, just say no.

      2. The New Wanderer*

        I agree, I think she should be pushed out as soon as reasonable. She won’t be contributing to the project the way you hope, no matter what. She’ll pull another leave-without-notice or whatever she needs to do to avoid actually working. Consider whatever strong performance or professionalism she had earlier is gone now, whether it’s the toxicity from the other employee or her own idea. It sucks, but she needs to go ASAP.

  90. becca*

    Years ago on this site, there was an amazing comment about different styles of asking for help (or setting expectations) vs assuming. It was about why some people who ask directly for help or something are perceived as rude by others. I’m not even sure it was about asking for help, but it was something about phrasing oneself directly vs indirectly and how different people hear those communication styles. Does this ring any bells? Can anyone even specify to my memory what I’m talking about so I can search AAM archives?

    1. Lovecraft Beauty*

      If you find it, please post, I’d be interested! It could be a thread about “ask” versus “guess” culture, maybe?

    2. My Brain is Exploding*

      I think what you are looking for is Ask Culture v. Guess Culture (although Guess is not the word some people prefer to use when discussing this… More like Hint Culture.)

  91. silvertech*

    I’ve been in white collar jobs until recently, and now I’m a cleaner. It’s mind-boggling how people (not everyone thank God) have a different attitude when they learn what you do for a living. For some of them it’s like a free pass to be disrespectful, of my time, my intellingence, etc. It’s very infuriating, but it’s a life lesson I will never forget. I have a pretty privileged background and this experience is teaching me a lot. Unfortunately it’s making me very unhappy as well, at the moment.

    Anyone else in my position? How do you cope?

    1. Jessen*

      Do you work alone or with a team? I’ve found a lot of blue collar jobs have stronger friendships with coworkers.

      For what it’s worth I’ve noticed the same. It’s fascinating going from a call center to frontline IT – I feel like I’m using the same skills, only now I’m actually people instead of “the staff.”

    2. BlueDays*

      I have more respect for labor-involved jobs (and customer service jobs) than regular office jobs. They’re sometimes more or harder work for less money, and a lot of people just aren’t good at them or don’t care so it can make the great workers look bad. Sorry you’re dealing with disrespect. Is it people you know who are bothering you, or strangers?

      1. silvertech*

        Both unfortunately. For various reasons I’m really thin-skinned now, so it bothers me more than it normally would!

    3. Zona the Great*

      I changed from teaching to dishwashing, chauffeuring and housekeeping when I was making life changes. What struck me was how many people wouldn’t look me in the eyes. I cleaned an executive house for a resort and the executives would leave me notes when they were in the same room with me instead of speaking to me. I coped by judging them harshly and then writing about it when I got home. I burned out quickly and never really forgave the “1%” as a whole just because of my terrible experiences with them.

    4. Mockingjay*

      I paid for my last year of college working as a janitor. I was continually mocked by trust-fund dorm mates.

      I coped by performing the job as best as possible. It was hard work, but I took pride in earning an honest wage and using that wage to complete my education.

      1. BadWolf*

        Gross! Were they also the messiest ones?

        In addition to retail, I think everyone should have some sort of cleaning job.

        1. BadWolf*

          ETA — the gross was for the mocking by the dorm mates. Not your janitor job.

          In our school, freshman were usually assigned cleaning or cafeteria by default. After working in the cafeteria, I kind wished I had been assigned a cleaning option instead. Although I did enjoy doing salad prep.

    5. BadWolf*

      Maybe start a mental bingo card of the stupid things people say?

      Submit stories to the Not Always Right website?

      Perhaps you can smile serenely at them and sigh wistfully as you are the Sage and Wise Cleaner that will help the Misguided Soul with Potential, if only they took the time to learn your name.

      1. silvertech*

        The mental bing sound great, but it’s more stuff like attitudes, behaviours, rather than actual things being said… like people forgetting I was supposed to come and clean, people that replace me with another cleaner but don’t tell me… it’s all wasted time and lost income for me, but they just don’t give a crap clearly, because I’m “just” a cleaner.

        As I was writing this though, I found out a client texted me a few hours ago thanking me for the great job I did today, so yeah, nice people exist!

    6. Wishing You Well*

      No one is less than anyone else.
      Disrespect is a serious character flaw.
      Your job does NOT determine your worth.
      I hope you spend time with people who are good to you.

      1. silvertech*

        I do, it’s one of my priorities :) I get enough crap on the job and I want my personal life to be as positive as possible, and that includes surrounding myself with good people.

    7. Frankie*

      I’ve done cleaning and I’ve done dishroom duty–you really see a whole crappy side to people when you’re doing work like this. I would really try to focus on how this is a learning experience for you and really focus on carrying that forward through the rest of your life.

      The actual task of cleaning I actually enjoyed, when it wasn’t some of the nastier messes people inconceivably leave behind. Is there something you enjoy about it you can focus on?

      But I would be grateful for the eye-opening–I’ve known some people who have never had to do work like this and they were not always very pleasant to work with, because they tended to be entitled about what they should and shouldn’t have to do in their white collar jobs.

  92. Sammie*

    I have been waiting for this day to come for a while now – I got a new job!

    I ran out of steam and patience at my current place. I was keeping an eye on what might be out there since last summer, but in the past two months I got serious about it and had some kind of interview almost every single week. I was sending out applications myself but also working with recruiters.

    I got really close with one company and here is where I must digress a little bit – thank you AAM for making me realize that I was interviewing them as well, and it was one of my best interview experiences yet; it all felt very mutual, which was lovely. Anyway, there was a delay in the hiring process and I figured I was out of the running. Then, the hiring manager came back to me, apologized profusely for the delay, asked if I was still interested in the role, and offered me a life-changing amount of money, along with some very nice quality-of-life perks. I damn near hyperventilated but somehow managed to ask for some time to think about it (I was at the early stages of interviewing with another company I was also very excited about and I just wanted to very carefully consider my different choices – what good fortune!).

    I don’t believe in dream jobs (for me). I was just looking for a job that met some key needs (good compensation, decent coworkers, company with an ethos I could respect, and work that would keep me stimulated and move me forward in my career). Well, I do believe I found it. I can taste the relief.

  93. Doctor's Notes*

    Can a supervisor compel you to produce a doctor’s note clearing you for work duties if you haven’t asked for any accommodations?

    My organization has a number of labor-heavy positions, and a number of support (office) positions. We recently had our front desk admin come to work on a Monday with a cast on her arm from an incident over the weekend. She was sent home by our bosses and told that she couldn’t return to work without a doctor’s note that cleared her for her job. She did not ask for any job modifications; she works on a computer and answers the phone. She produced a note, and came back the next day, but we were all shocked. It’s not unusual for the laborers to bring in notes if they’ve been injured and are unable to perform their very physical jobs – is this a deal about treating everyone the same, even when it’s not requested?

    1. Weegie*

      It’s probably a corporate insurance issue – some companies can’t have injured personnel on site unless they’ve been officially deemed fit to work. A schoolteacher acquaintance was not allowed to come into work with a cast on her fractured wrist until it had completely healed and she’d been signed off by her doctor, even though she could have done most of her job without issue.

    2. RandomU...*

      Yep, they can do that. It’s mostly a liability CYA.

      Think of it this way, the admin could have started in at work with the cast and later found out that by spending 4 hours a day sorting paperclips had aggravated the injury, now there’s a claim against the company.

      By getting the medical clearance, the company has backup and documentation that there weren’t any accommodations that should be made and that employee was cleared medically to perform their job.

      I don’t think it’s typical in most office jobs, but it’s not unheard of or crazy weird either.

    3. Kathenus*

      Yes, at least wherever I’ve worked, you definitely can. I work in a field that has positions that involved significant physical activity, and it’s very common to ask for specific guidelines from a doctor on work allowed/restrictions – since many doctors may not realize the details of the person’s job. And tbh we don’t want a personal injury to end up being aggravated and being a work-related one. Plus we’d rather have someone on restricted duty and back to 100% then have lingering issues because of overdoing it and have them on limited duty for longer periods of time.

      1. Kathenus*

        Sorry, forgot to address more of the specifics of this situation. Desk work can still impact an injury, especially a computer-oriented job and an arm injury. So it may not be intuitive, but I can see the logic here.

    4. The Man, Becky Lynch*

      Yes, it’s to cover yourself from the liability.

      If you allow someone to work with a known injury and they GET WORSE! from working, that’s a workers comp claim in the making. So they need a doctor’s clearance in order to cover themselves. In the workers comp world they’ll ask if you have any existing condition to that body part but if they find out your job added more damage to it, then they’re still on the hook for the damages.

      It’s not regular for offices but since you have a labor heavy side, it’s probably a sweeping rule. It’s better to keep the shop floor and office on the same page like that to avoid people letting things fall through the gaps or the illusion of favoritism. Consistency is your friend when it comes to policies.

  94. Jessen*

    I could use some networking 101 advice. So right now I work frontline IT for a government job. I’d like to get some cybersecurity credentials. It would be helpful to maybe talk to people, find out a bit more what different things around here are looking for – but I honestly have no idea where to even start! I’ve been here about 6 months and don’t feel like I know anyone except my immediate teammates. Most people seem to mostly stick to their cubes.

    1. irene adler*

      Can you find a professional organization in the industry you are interested in that has a chapter local to you? If so, that’s a great source for networking, career advice, input on what the best credentials you need to earn to land the jobs you are interested in, etc.
      Finding such organizations will take a bit of time to research (try different job titles/industry terms). Once you find them, email them and ask about how they support their members re: their job interests. Some have lots of activities (monthly meetings, networking events, job/career fairs, mentoring, conferences, on-line info resources); others are primarily ‘political’ and don’t really have much in the way of job-focused activities.

      NOTE: there will be a cost to join such organizations

    2. Admin of Sys*

      If you have an IT security team, they’re usually thrilled if other IT folks ping them to ask about procedures etc, which would give you an in. A lot of places also offer basic security classes – they’re often geared towards end users, but it would give you a point of contact.
      And if you’re afraid it would look weird going to a class on things you already know (depending on how basic the class is) – I found that auditing classes that the end users take is really useful as a support tech, because it gives you the base set of knowledge you can assume your support clients have.
      You could also directly ask your manager for training in security – knowing best practices and such regarding security and data forensics would make you a better front liner.

    3. dealing with dragons*

      look at job postings for your career trajectory and see if those have any credentials listed and what they are. if you are in a big city, look for tech meet ups. for instance, my city has meet ups for things like python or aws. there are also sometimes “coder dojos” or the like where you can teach kids tech things, but it’s also a bigger networking group.

    4. Policy wonk*

      Every agency is different, but mine has lots of networking opportunities. Affinity groups based on ethnicity (e.g., Asian American Assoc., Blacks in Government), Toastmasters, occasional signs posted for softball or Ultimate teams. Pick one or two and check them out. Even if the people you meet aren’t IT, thety may have helpful contacts.

  95. Beaded Librarian*

    So I work at a library and we are looking at adding some programming and quick reference materials on applying for jobs online.

    Our community has a large immigrant population and not all of them know or can find the name or information of the schools they attended in their home country.

    Does anyone have a suggestion on what to put when the applications ask for this as they often won’t let a person skip adding it. Part of me assumes it would be similar to if you have a GED but I’ll admit to not being sure how to handle that either.

    Any suggestions? Thanks

    1. Darren*

      Since I never actually technical completed high school (although I have a Bachelors, Masters and PhD) I used to just put “Did not Attend” whenever I had to fill something in, although lets be honest not a lot of jobs in IT ask about your high school education once you get above a certain level.

      In the case where they did attend but not in this country I’d just put something like completed High School or High School-equivalency. It’s actually interesting in that the question while technically valid could be used to illegally screen. If they had a higher qualification I’d just focus on that and put something like prefer not to say.

    2. JunieB*

      With a GED, you generally list the state board of education that issued your GED in the box for the high school name. Maybe you could do the same by using the name of whatever entity oversaw education in the area where they graduated.

  96. CMart*

    How does one be a good mentee? Or rather: how can I go about being mentored when I am unambitious?

    I’m in an entry-level “elite” program in finance and accounting at my MegaCorp and will be ending the program soon and seeking a senior-level permanent role soon. Somehow I’ve made a great impression on our SVP/CAO/executive sponsor and she’s very motivated to get me networking with all kinds of people so she can ensure I get whatever job I want when I’m done.

    Which is awesome! But… I don’t know how to talk to people about career development. Honestly all I want is to keep being paid well, be in a role/group with decent flexibility, and not have a workload where I’m running around with my hair on fire ever. I don’t care about keys to moving up or climbing the ladder, of being super successful etc… I just want to collect my paycheck, keep my head down, and have time to comment on AAM sporadically throughout the day.

    What do I ask director/VP level people when they so graciously meet with me to help me figure out my career path here?

    1. Not Me*

      If you really don’t care about the things they want to teach you, just ask them about their career path and how they got to where they are. People love to talk about themselves.

      I think you’ll find that at some point in your career you will care about “being super successful” only it’ll feel more like “I want to make more money” or “my job is so boring, I need to be more challenged”.

    2. Kathenus*

      I don’t mean to be unkind, but if your goal is “to keep being paid well, be in a role/group with decent flexibility, and not have a workload where I’m running around with my hair on fire ever. “, you’re not likely to achieve this if you’re unambitious.

      You don’t have to be ambitious in the sense of wanting to keep climbing the corporate ladder, but being paid well, a job with flexibility, and a not too heavy workload is not an entry level accomplishment, you need to work to achieve that. If you achieve it, and want to stay there, then great – just keep succeeding at that level without any focus on advancing. But I don’t think you get there without motivation and hard work.

      It sounds like you were ambitious enough to enter the elite program, and your ambitious enough to want to get a senior-level role – so figure out what you need to accomplish this goal and then use the great impression you’ve made with the SVP to help with the path to get you to this goal. I think you may be more ambitious than you’re realizing, but possibly not realizing that you are not likely to achieve the goals you state without some level of effort/luck/ambition/drive. So instead of networking with ‘all kinds of people’, see if she can help you network with a specific person or two to achieve your specific goal that you stated above. Good luck.

    3. Darren*

      I am going to have to also say that your lack of ambition is likely going to bite you in the medium-long term. My work for example has developing levels and resting levels it takes years of work (on average about 6+) to get to one of the levels that is a resting level and where you could just do your job well and stay indefinitely. If you aren’t on the path to get to that level you will eventually be managed out in favour of someone that has the intelligence AND drive to get to the resting levels.

      And while they are labelled “resting” levels you’d find it difficult to rest at them since they are fairly senior levels involving you having to drive work and actively engage with senior people in at least some if not most of the business functions. So keeping your head down and just doing your work not really an option, similarly you will occasionally have rough workloads it comes with the level.

      You definitely want to have some candid discussions (on their part not necessarily yours) about what careers look like at this company (and potentially your area in general to see whether this company is abnormal), what they feel makes for good employees, and what people’s career tracks typically look like (both those on the fast-track to management/senior levels and those with more typical career tracks). Take advantage of these chats to feel out whether they feel your specific career track would look like as well.

      There is the definite possibility that you might have to move on in a few years if they just don’t want to offer the kind of position you’d be looking for long-term.

      My company has financial people for example and I know for a fact even though I’m just in IT you wouldn’t be able to get away with resting there either, everyone in that area is expected to drive process improvements in finance not just continue to do the same task inefficiently because this was the only way we could get it to work in time initially and this means that they often have to engage with senior people in IT to get the changes they need.

  97. Laura H.*

    I started my new job at the candy store that also makes its own popcorn and ice cream- and they’re still working on getting the pretzel dough and machine to play nice. (Seriously, people are EAGER for those- me included- but they’re hoping some time next week)

    I’m glad to be working again. And super glad that the new employment place is gonna work around my schedule for my seasonal job.

    Due to the fact that we opened our doors just this week, and my season starts within the next two weeks, it was an easier thing for me to arrange to give them my seasonal schedule and ask to have that worked around rather than try and change my availability for the seasonal gig. By the time I start thinking on Christmas availability, I should have a better grasp on my regular job’s schedule tendencies and be able to adequately change the seasonal availability.

    I’m just glad they’re willing to do this for me!

  98. Zeldalaw*

    I work at a smaller nonprofit. One of the options in our staff development is to “shadow” or employees in other areas. I have one of those jobs that can sound exciting to outsiders, but in practice is really not so much (legislative affairs). I have a coworker at my same level who has identified my role as one she wants to shadow; I’ve had others do the same, although none at my level. When our boss told me about it, he asked if I could pick a busier time so she could really see what goes on. She is one of our attorneys. All good until she asked if there was a time in the next couple of weeks when I’m particularly overwhelmed where she could help out. Not to train first or get up to speed or anything like that. Just “where can I jump in now.” The thing is, I have 20+ years of experience in this area. She has no background in it and is only about 5 years out of law school, although she has always worked as an attorney in nonprofits, so she’s worked with legislative affairs people before at all of her jobs. Am I being irrational in not being comfortable with someone who has never done this before being able to just jump in? Also to note, this is a very busy time when things come quickly, so it’s not that she’d be jumping in to paperwork or something that could be reviewed before finishing or that would allow for more time. I have a good relationship with my boss, so I could talk to him if necessary, but there’s a part of me that feels like I’m just being territorial.

    It’s not the shadowing or even if she wanted to be trained as a backup; I’d have no problem with either of those (in fact, I especially wouldn’t hate the latter to have some help!). I’m getting stuck on the implication that she can just jump in with both feet immediately at any time, but maybe it’s just that I’m being insecure. It’s not like I’m a brain surgeon or something and she is an attorney (note, I’m also a lawyer; I realized this kind of sounds like my issue was that she’s a lawyer and I’m not)! Thoughts? Thanks for wading through this!!

    1. MsM*

      Just tell her that she’s welcome to come observe (assuming that part is true), but it would really be more helpful if you were able to take the time to figure out how best to use her before she does any jumping in.

    2. Kathenus*

      I get what you’re saying, but there may be a middle ground here. First, shadowing and training as a backup are completely different so I’d think of separating them in the discussion. Shadowing might not be following you around for a day if it’s a job where that doesn’t make sense. I have a very different job than you but the same in that it is one that interests people but spending a day following me makes no sense with what I do. But I can sit down with someone for a couple of hours talking about what I do, my career path, how they might get into the field, etc.

      For the training, the middle ground I mentioned is to look at finding some specific tasks you do that don’t require your experience in the field, that are more straightforward and basic but that have to be done, that you could teach someone to do and take some workload off your plate. My team has done that, trained some people to help out with certain aspects of their job to free them up to spend more time on the higher skill portions. So maybe there is a way to give people this experience and help you at the same time.

    3. Organa*

      Legislative affairs in my experience is highly dependent on personal relationships and connections. I work in public affairs and have my own relationships with a lot of elected officials and staff, but wouldn’t presume to think that I could jump in and help someone in a government relations role without very specific instructions and guidance. Perhaps you can explain it to the attorney that way.

  99. Janteloven*

    Anyone here have experience with Danish job applications? I’m trying to suss out if the stock advice I’m reading is legit or just the Danish equivalent of the same “hit the streets” bad job advice that circulates in North America.

    For one, I’m being told that you definitely need to call the contact person in a job listing before applying and ask some questions. This is so counter to how things are done here that I don’t feel super safe doing it! Is this actually an expected first step? Many postings I see only list an email for the contact person and no phone, are you supposed to email them and ask about the job before applying as a general rule? Is it problematic if you don’t? I did this exactly once when I genuinely had some questions, and the dude never emailed me back, so.

    The other thing is including personal info in your CV and cover letter. As in, literally have a small section on your CV that says what you do for fun, and in the cover letter throw in something like that as well. I’ve also been advised to make this Denmark-centric since I’m an international applicant, something about how I love Denmark and want to move there. Is this actually normal or am I gonna look like a moron?

    1. Beth Jacobs*

      I don’t have Danish experience, although I am in continental Europe. So I can’t offer you specific advice on these two things, but I can say that I’ve heard similar advice here [central Europe, don’t want to share too much] from my parents’ generation, but know from my own experience it’s a bit outdated. For context, here reaching out is fine if a contact is listed, but by no means necessary. And a lot (maybe even most) CVs I’ve seen have a hobby section, but I am leading a one-girl revolution against that and doing well in the job market.

      Sorry I can’t give you specific help. But what I’m trying to say is: don’t discard your instinct of what is weird just because you’re in a foreign country. I feel sometimes people tend to “overcompensate” for cultural differences.

    2. Dane here*

      This must be a position that is advertised in English and is in an internationally oriented company? If so, I’d follow common international ways of doing things.

      As for Denmark-specific things, I think it is more important to show that you are willing to move – unless the company is one that lives off advertising Denmark as fantastic.

      1. Janteloven*

        If so, I’d follow common international ways of doing things.

        It is, but I don’t think there is a common international way of doing things for some of these. All of these are major no-nos where I’m from. See also: Including your photo, which (I’m told?) is typical for y’all but is also absolutely not done here.

    3. ContemporaryIssued*

      Nordic country here, not Danish tho – the contacting beforehand is meant to put your name in the recruiter’s head. I have no idea if it works or not. I only call or email if the job listing leaves me with a question about hours or length of the job.

      The personal info I have is sometimes asked about as a light ice breaker question or a soft ball question in between normal job interview questions. Like, “What made you get into volleyball?”. You can leave it out in favor of more career orientated personal hobbies if you like. I would put it in the CV but not the cover letter.

  100. I edit everything*

    Does anyone have any positive experience with a career counselor to share? I love freelancing, but I’m feeling the financial pinch (always), and wondering if I need to go back to full-time work. If I do, I’ll have to change fields and could use some help on that front. If you’ve used a career counselor, how did you find them? What was the most useful? What should I watch out for? Or are they just useless, and I’ll have as good results if I just keep reading AAM?

    1. Workforce stuff*

      My organization runs a career counseling center. In my understanding, almost all, if not all, career counseling places are rooted in welfare-to-work. As such, they are oriented towards lower skill, less educated workers than tend to be AAM readers. (I’m not trying to stigmatize the people at career centers or welfare participants, but the majority of our clients are getting GEDs, learning basic computer skills, getting training for the trades for the first time, etc.) They do have some connections with employers, so it might be worth checking out for that purpose, but overall I don’t know how useful it would be for you.

      I’m referring to federally funded career counselors. If there’s another kind, that’s not what I mean.

    2. Anon Anon Anon*

      I have tried them but have not had positive experiences with them. And the ones I tried had good reviews and solid qualifications.

      Part of the issue for me was that they didn’t seem to have read my resume very carefully and seemed to think I was about 20 years younger (maybe because of the kind of job I had at the time). If I give it another try, I’ll probably add a quick bio making my basic life situation really clear. Seriously. I was 38 and two people – unaffiliated with each other – spoke to me as if I was 18 and asked a lot of weird questions about high school and my parents. Yikes. And they both had two masters degrees and charged quite a lot for their services.

      I’m sure there are good ones out there. But I concluded that finding a mentor who likes you and likes your work is the best route (at least for me) and that you get there by networking and showing people who you are and what you’re good at.

      That’s just my two cents. Slightly off topic, but I hope it helps!

  101. Trinity Beeper*

    Last week I made a comment about picking between an existing job that would get me closer to the skills I want, or a new job that would get me closer to the industry I want, but use a totally different skillset that I’m not very interested in.

    I ended up asking my current job if I could get fast-tracked into a position that would hone skillset in question, and they said yes! So, I’m staying here for the time being. Thank you to everyone who weighed in.

  102. FD*

    I’ve realized recently that I tend to speak too loudly. (Before people ask, I am absolutely sure that this is not a gendered thing.) A lot of people in my family struggle with this, actually–possibly because several people in my family have some degree of ASD. It happens mostly when I’m excited.

    I definitely want to improve on this, but it’s tough to remember to do it when I’m excited/stressed…which is when it tends to happen. Does anyone have any suggestions for improving in this area?

    1. CMart*

      Practice practice practice. If it’s something you want to change, enlist someone you’re close to in your personal life to be your volume monitor.

      After a decade of doing speech/debate/theatre + a career of bartending, I realized my new normal inclination was to project my voice, even in more subdued situations (like a small conference room, or talking over a cubicle half-wall in an open office).

      Step #1 was realizing I was being too loud. You’ve gotten to that one.

      Step #2 was honestly practicing with my husband at home. Seriously, I would have him stand a few feet away from me and tell him about my day and just work on getting less and less loud until he indicated I was at a good, subdued volume. He also will give me small hand signals down by his waist if we’re out among people and I’m getting too animated.

      It’s still a bit of a conscious effort and work in progress, but I’m not shouting my questions at my coworkers anymore.

    2. Kathenus*

      In addition to CMart’s suggestions, try to figure out what contexts it happens in so you can target the focus in these areas. What are the specific situations that you might get more excited and have the louder talking come out? Then maybe just pick one or two and try to be really conscious of them – even using reminders such as a calendar reminder if it happens to be around a certain activity – you could put a reminder on your calendar before that activity to pay attention to your volume.

      Another strategy that can really help, and gain positive impressions from your coworkers, is to use them to help you out. Let them know this is something you’re working on, and that you’d like their help to notice and point out if you start increasing your volume, so you can learn to better target these times to build new habits. I used this strategy when trying to improve my listening skills – I had some fun with it and joked that I’d get my teams a jar of foam balls they could throw at me when I interrupted or wasn’t listening well. It helped break the ice on it, but showed them that I cared about this but would need time and help to continue to improve.

  103. Canonical23*

    I have been an assistant director at a library for 7 months. I planned on staying here for a little while, because my previous jobs have been 1-4 year stints in lower level positions, apart from one department head job that lasted for 2 years.

    However. My dream job was posted last night in the city that I’m from and have always wanted to move back to. I’m qualified for it and I know the system pretty well and know I’d be one of their better candidates. Should I apply?

    1. irene adler*

      In a word, yes.

      Nothing ventured, nothing gained.

      You’ll kick yourself if you don’t.

    2. irene adler*

      If you are afraid they will think your background looks “job-hoppy” don’t let that stop you.
      Let them determine this for themselves.
      Present yourself as being the ideal candidate -show how well you fit the job description.
      And that relocating to Their City has been something you want to do.

  104. anonymoose*

    When I recently gave notice my boss told me confidentially that they were entertaining an offer elsewhere. And now I’m in the unenviable position of having to keep that rather relevant information from my very dear co-workers, who would be SCREWED by this. I have much more loyalty to my co-workers than my boss, who I’ve only worked for for a few months. Do I tell my co-workers? Do I keep the secret? Do I keep the secret only until I no longer work here? I don’t want to burn the bridge with my boss, but I am ANNOYED that boss told me, as it’s such a crap burden to carry. What would you do?

    1. Bunny Girl*

      Honestly, I think it would be in your best interest not to say anything. I know you want to give your co-workers a head’s up, but that would probably cause a problem between you and your boss, and ultimately going forward, you might need to use your boss as a reference at least once or twice over your career, and if you say anything, it might cause your boss to not talk about you in the most favorable light (rightly or wrongly).

      1. anonymoose*

        Thank you for your response! I think you’re right, but it still feels lousy. My co-workers and I have been through a lot (very drama-filled workplace) and if my boss leaves it will be so terrible for them. But I suppose if boss doesn’t leave it would cause a lot of stress/drama for nothing…

        1. RandomU...*

          I hear what you are saying, but what would telling your coworkers gain them?

          About the only thing you would accomplish is to start the ‘boss leaving’ drama early. It’s going to be terrible for them if they hear about now or hear about it later. There is only downside for you tell them early.

          Honestly, I’d forget you know this bit of news about your boss. I mean surely you misheard them…wink wink.

            1. valentine*

              Think of it as his call. There must be reasons why he’s not telling everyone. He probably doesn’t want to make things difficult for them, but he’s chosen this. Ride it out.

    2. AvonLady Barksdale*

      Say nothing. He told you this in confidence. Don’t break that. Besides, he only told you that he is “entertaining” an offer, so no need to get people worked up for something that might turn out to be nothing.

      1. anonymoose*

        Thanks. You’re right. If boss doesn’t leave it would have added to the drama for nothing. Still seems to be a lousy confidence to share with an employee.

      2. JessicaTate*

        Wasn’t there a letter on here sort of recently from an employee whose manager told their department that she’d seen something that indicated they were all going to get laid off… and then they all took crappier jobs elsewhere… and then there were no layoffs. It’s crappy that your boss told you this, but you don’t want to be the cause of upheaval in the event that it doesn’t happen. (And if it does happen, the upheaval will happen anyway. You can’t stop that by telling them early.)

        1. anonymoose*

          Very very good points. And I remember that recent letter now too. I just have the (probably misguided) feeling that I want to protect my co-workers from more upheaval. And it feels disloyal not to tell them. But you’re right that telling them won’t actually protect them.

          1. Snark*

            Yeah, it’s not going to avert the upheaval, or protect them from it if it happens, it’ll just make them miserable, possibly for nothing.

    3. Anono-me*

      Another point to consider is that if you spill the boss’s news to your coworkers they probably will appreciate the heads-up, but it won’t change anything. But your boss/future reference and all of your coworkers will learn that they can’t tell you secrets.

    4. Snark*

      That information is not relevant to your coworkers, as it is not their business yet and may never be. It is also something that you were informed of in confidence, and that does mean something.

      Don’t say anything. This is not a loyalty issue, this is not a crap burden you must carry, it’s just something you know and don’t need to talk about. And as noted above, it’s’ a question of your professional ethics and trustworthiness.

  105. SinSA*

    Our newly minted Office Administrator (just got the role a few weeks ago) told me yesterday that they just found out their stepmom (who OA is really close to) was given 6 months to live.
    Until this morning, I was the only one here who even knew Stepmom was sick (I’ve known for a while).

    OA and I bonded when my brother/mom died within 2 weeks of each other last summer, and I obviously have an understanding of what they’re dealing with (both in losing a parent to cancer, and also they’re all the way across the country). So we talk a lot about this stuff.

    OA is going there for a week, and that means (I guess?) that I’ll handle office needs while they’re out, once those are determined. (even though no one has told me officially that I’m her 2nd in command, but that was my role under the prior OA). When they accepted the OA role, they told me they’d really need my help so I guess it was understood that I was still this person.

    Anyway, obviously, things are about to Go Down because of everything that OA will be dealing with, family wise and they/this office will really need me.

    So here’s my issue –I am up for a 2nd round interview next week (and if I pass that and make it to the final interview and am offered the position at a new company), what do I do now that this is a Thing?

    On the one hand, I feel like I should support OA right now because they were there for me and they established that we would work together (although that hasn’t super started yet) I would feel awful if I left during such an awful time (because they’d have to replace me AND figure out who the 2nd in command would be and that might not be the same person?) I am very supportive of her and want to help her.

    On the OTHER hand, I was passed over for this role (but am really pleased with how she’s doing), and I *know* I don’t necessarily owe this place anything. I spoke with HR about what I want going forward and reviews are any day now, but I haven’t heard anything yet and if they agree to what I want, I’m in a sweet position here all of a sudden.

    And on my right foot, because I’ve now run out of hands, I know that I have not even been offered the role at Other Company yet so this all might be for nothing.
    What would you guys do?

    1. MsM*

      Assuming HR doesn’t give you an offer so good that all thoughts of leaving seem laughable, focus on the interview. You can worry about how to make your departure as easy on OA as you can once you’ve got an offer in hand. If they didn’t have you, or you weren’t as conscientious as you are (since they haven’t officially told you they’re expecting you to cover), the company would have to figure something out. They will – and if they don’t, that’s all the more reason not to pass up a good opportunity somewhere else.

  106. Michaela*

    Anyone have advice for wtf to do about references in a job search when you’ve been in the same position for ~8 years and obviously don’t want current boss/coworkers to know you’re looking? I’m kind of at a loss.

    1. irene adler*

      Use the boss, co-workers from the job 8+ years ago. That’s not too out of date to be able to attest to your skills and abilities from that time.
      If you volunteer somewhere, or take classes, or belong to a professional organization, these might be a source for references.

    2. Cheesecake2.0*

      Is there anyone who left the company more recently that you worked with you could reach out to? I’ve done that.

    3. Iris Eyes*

      Do you have any former coworkers who would serve as a reference? Or contacts at outside companies you have worked with? Do you do any volunteer work and could get a reference from there?

      Who has experienced you in a work context that you can ask?

  107. Senior management came to me about my difficult boss*

    I’ve been at my job for 9 months, and I’m having problems with my boss. She has a lot of issues imo but basically, she needs to “win” every discussion/argument ever. (To make matters worse, she has no expertise whatsoever in my field–I’m the only person in this field at my company, so they kind of assigned me a boss randomly.) So it’s reached a point where I just smile and nod at whatever she says, because talking with her is the equivalent of attempting a reasonable debate with an online troll. I’m fairly advanced in my expertise, so being the yes-woman of someone who doesn’t understand my work (which is technical–I’m not being condescending, she truly doesn’t understand it) isn’t something I’m willing to tolerate.

    It reached the point where I was going to ask for a new manager, but before I had a chance, a senior manager came up to me and asked about my relationship with my boss. Apparently the CEO suspected that things weren’t going well and had noticed my boss having problems with other colleagues as well. I was flustered and not prepared, so I shared my thoughts but not eloquently at all. She told me that the CEO was aware of the issue and “working on it”. (Assigning me a new boss? Firing the boss? idk)

    My question is… how/when should I “follow up”? It’s only been a week, and if I had initiated that meeting, I wouldn’t follow up so quickly. But I’m still very unclear what the plan is, and I don’t understand if they know how she’s impacting my work *and* my job satisfaction. Thoughts?

    1. MsM*

      Is there anything you left out due to your lack of preparation that you think might be important? Might be a good excuse for following up.

    2. RandomU...*

      In this context a week is not a long time. The question came to you because they were putting the feelers out to see if there was basis for further action. That further action could range from nothing to boss being fired and everything in between.

      At this point I would proceed as if you didn’t have that conversation and continue with your plan to ask for a new manager. Unless the conversation is with the Sr. Manager who to you spoke with, I’d not really mention the conversation. If it is with the Sr. Manager then you can reference it in a passive way.

      Passive like… “our conversation last week was interesting timing, I have been planning on requesting a new manager, and it seems that you already had guessed, and I confirmed, the reasons. I don’t need to or want to know anything that is going on in the background, I think it would best for all if I was reassigned regardless.”

      In other words you’re asking for a specific action, to be reassigned, that is separate from what ever is or isn’t going on with the manager. Even if something is going on in the background, it’s likely to be going on for a relatively long time.

      1. valentine*

        I wouldn’t add the last line. The first part isn’t your call and makes it sound like you’re in charge.

  108. Emmie*

    Is there someone who is excellence at work to you? I’m listening to How I Built This right now, and he is really good. He tunes into people’s emotions well, and also asks questions efficiently – something I aspire to. And I was at a clothing store yesterday. The woman helped me put together outfits that I hadn’t thought of, which isn’t their normal service model. I’d love to hear about people who are excellent at their jobs, and what makes them great!

    1. Delta Delta*

      I like this very much. I would love to see some comments about people who are excellent at their work!

      1. valentine*

        The gynecologist who spent fewer than five minutes in the room and, torture device included, performed a painless Pap. She left the practice before my next visit, securing her legendary status forevermore.

    2. anonagain*

      I once urgently needed to pick up a prescription and urgently needed to leave for an appointment at roughly the same time. I ran into CVS with 5 minutes before my day was going to fall apart, praying there wouldn’t be a line, but there were three people ahead of me, an eternity in pharmacy queue time. I almost cried.

      But an amazing thing happened. As one person swiped their card, the cashier moved to the other register and began looking up the next person’s prescription. She pulled it off the shelf and scanned it, all in time to get the first person’s receipt. She bounced back and forth between the two registers with absolutely perfect timing. She didn’t even look rushed.

      She handed me my receipt almost before I knew what was happening. I thanked her and told her that I was impressed. She was quite possibly the most efficient person I’ve seen do any job, ever. She paused to thank me warmly. And then she moved to the other register without missing a beat.

    3. Alpha Bravo*

      The two that stand out to me are both baristas, which says something about my priorities. But both of these wonderful people were spectacular at what they did, and their excellence made for a better start to my work day – for years.

  109. Jadelyn*

    Looking for advice on “reviving” an old networking contact

    There’s an annual conference event that I go to for my company. At the 2018 event, last March, I hit it off with one woman in a similar role to mine at a round table networking session and we exchanged contact info. A week or so after the event, she emailed me just to say basically “hi, it was great meeting you, looking forward to talking in the future” or something to that effect.

    Well, I was in the midst of digging my way out of the piled-up emails from the week I was at the event and didn’t reply right away. I set the email aside, made a mental note to reply when I had a minute…and then forgot.

    The 2019 event was just a couple of weeks ago, and she was actually a panelist at one of the “customer panel” breakout sessions I attended, which reminded me that I had never replied to her. I’d like to, both because I think she’d be a really valuable contact and because we got along well personally – but I feel really awkward about doing so after this long. Any advice? Should I just let this one go? Acknowledge it’s been a long time and apologize for not replying before? Not address that aspect at all?

    1. irene adler*

      why not initiate contact?
      From what you wrote: “looking forward to talking in the future” sounds more like “let’s talk sometime” and not “please respond”. So why not break the ice by emailing something like “Hi, I was thinking back to the 2018 March event where you were a panelist at xx session. Just wondered if you had some time to catch up/get coffee (or whatever sounds appropriate for you to write). I really wanted to hear more about x (or talk about y).”

      It would be flattering to learn that one had made an impression that remained a year later. Let her know that’s the case.

  110. Carrie Heffernan*

    I am working from home today and right now I’m in the middle of our required harassment training and obviously like what not to do. My husband came in the room and said he thought I was listening to my Ask a Manager podcast. Definitely got a kick out of that.

  111. Confused*

    I’m feeling very confused and conflicted and could use some outside advice.

    I’ve received one job offer from a nonprofit organization and am potentially receiving an offer from a tech company today. Two very different organizations, however the positions are similar (exec assistant-type roles). I’m supposed to make my decision today and I’m feeling very torn. I’ve gotten a lot of conflicting advice from family and friends and am wondering if someone who is outside the situation can offer a different perspective.

    I come from a nonprofit background so right off the bat the NPO feels more comfortable to me. They brought me in for one in-person interview with the President and the HR Director. The interview lasted a little over an hour and went pretty well. They stressed the importance of work-life balance, and they also offer a very generous vacation and PTO package, even to first-year employees. Their office is closed for 2 weeks for Christmas which I have always dreamed of but never thought I could find a place that offers this! Most of the work would be along the lines of things I have done before. The downside is the commute would be pretty long as they are moving to a new facility that is on the opposite side of town from where I live. I’m also not sure if there is much room for advancement (career-wise). They offered me the job the day after my interview and seemed very excited to have me on board. I’m a little worried the excitement may be due to desperation, but the optimistic in me is hopeful they just really like me.

    The tech company is completely different from what I am used to. Even the interview process has been kind of intense, as I had multiple phone/video interviews and then went in for a three hour interview with four members of the team I would be working on. This job would involve a lot of long hours, although sometimes I would get to work from home. This is a very progressive company and they have completely open floor plans where each person just finds an open spot to work each day. They appear to have a very casual work environment and honestly, when I was getting a tour, I felt overwhelmed by the loud music and clusters of people just hanging out and chatting. I would travel around to the different sites in town (there are three total) and the position would also involve some international travel as well. They offer unlimited PTO, but the impression I got during my interviews is people tend to not take a lot of time off. My feeling is this job would require a lot of work, but could also be very rewarding and allow my career to grow and advance. The person who would be my boss specifically mentioned this is important to him as well. I also liked this person and felt like we connected a little better than I did with the President at the NPO (although she seemed like a very nice person).

    I’m in my early 30’s and just got married, and hope to be starting a family within the next year. Honestly, if I was a little younger and still single, I feel like I would be jumping for the tech company. The idea of all that work and travel just feels exhausting to me right now though, especially because the job I just got laid off from involved a ton of work.

    I feel like I’m leaning more towards the NPO mostly because of the work-life balance and vacation perks. They met the salary I requested which is quite high for an NPO, although the salary I would be making at the tech company would likely be about 10% higher. I’ve talked to my husband about this and he wants me to do what I feel would make me happiest, and I think that is the NPO but honestly I’m a little worried about a 45 min-hour long commute to and from work every day. My greatest concern is I will feel stuck there, and in a couple years I may wish I had taken the tech role instead. This is what happened at my last nonprofit job – I advanced in the ranks and peaked within three years. However, at this point in my life I’m wondering if work-life balance is more important than career advancement.

    I’ve over analyzed this to the point where I can’t clearly see the situation anymore. Can anyone out there lend me some advice?

    1. The Ginger Ginger*

      Will the shorter commute really make up for the longer hours and the travel requirements at the tech job? Especially if you think you want to be starting a family soon? What’s the difference to you between working an additional 2 hours a day with a short commute and commuting that amount of time instead? To me that would be a pretty big difference, I’d much rather be driving than still working. But you really have to answer for yourself.

      You say you want to start a family; do you have a new parent friend you could describe these places to who can weigh in on which would be more conducive to that goal? I don’t have kids myself, but on the surface, it definitely looks like the NPO would make being a new parent and working be more manageable.

      Also, if you haven’t already, picture yourself accepting the NPO offer. Picture yourself walking into the office next week. Really put yourself there in your mind. Do the same with the Tech job. Picture yourself doing all that traveling, working in those offices. Imagine yourself in both the good and bad parts of both jobs. Does one make you more anxious than the other? Is it just worry about something new, or are you actually feeling some dread about that part of the job? If you imagine yourself turning down the NPO for the Tech job, are you disappointed? Relieved? How about if you imagine turning down the Tech job? Plus, you don’t have the tech offer in hand yet. So by the end of the day, you may only have the one choice. If you imagine that scenario, how do you feel? I’d really think hard about those feelings, because after all this theoretical is over, you DO have to walk into the job you pick, and if you pick one just with your logic, you may be surprised to find you’re disappointed with or dreading the work on your first day.

      If it were ME, as you described it, I’d go with the NPO. But again, that’s me. There’s nothing wrong with taking a job because it’s more comfortable if that is an important metric for you. And you mention peaking in 3 years, but that’s not an unreasonable amount of time to work somewhere before moving on, so even if you do that again, you can apply for jobs that are your step up after 3 years. You don’t have to make a lateral move just because you’re changing companies.

      Good luck!

      1. Confused*

        Thank you so much for your kind and thoughtful reply. This has helped me more than you know.

    2. JamieS*

      If you worked at the tech company would you be happy (or as happy as someone can be at work) in your day to day? If not, and your post sounds like you wouldn’t, I’d go with the NPO unless you need the 10% difference in salary. Sounds like the main thing pulling you towards the tech company is the possibility of advancement but that’s not a guarantee and I doubt you’ll wind up wanting to stay and advance there if you’re miserable in your normal day to day.

      1. Confused*

        You are correct, the main advantage to me is opportunity for advancement (which isn’t event a guarantee). The more I think about it the more I worry I’ll be miserable working there. Thank you for your input!

    3. Anon for Layoffs*

      I worked at a NPO for almost 9 years and then moved to a for-profit with a lot of travel (I was traveling too at the NPO) and unlimited PTO. Unlimited PTO sucks. Keep in mind since it’s unlimited, it’s not tracked. No payout for vacation accrued when you leave. And good luck using it – there is always a reason why it’s not a good time. I’m probably jaded, but I am back at a NPO now and loving it. If you are interested in starting a family, I would choose stability and perqs over excitement and promises way into the future that may or may not materialize.
      Even though there doesn’t seem to be growth at the NPO, you never know what can happen after a few years.

      1. Confused*

        Thank you so much for offering your point of view. It’s really helpful to hear from someone who has been in a similar situation. My last company had unlimited PTO, but I wasn’t really there long enough to see how it played out (this company was a start-up and folded after six months, unfortunately). I suspect at the tech company it would be very similar to your experience. Thanks again!

      2. Sammie*

        I was interviewing for some jobs that had unlimited PTO and my question to my interviewers was basically a version of ‘how comfortable do people feel using it?’ It is not a perk unless you get to use it.

    4. CupcakeCounter*

      Reread your post and I bet you have the answer.

      If starting a family soon is important go with the NPO. The many positives your wrote about for the NPO far outweigh the 1 con (commute) and the 2 (maybe) pros at the tech company (possible salary boost and advancement).

      1. Confused*

        You are absolutely right. I went ahead and accepted the job offer from the NPO a few minutes ago. :)

        Thanks to you and the other commenters who offered some sound outside advice, I really needed it!

  112. Personality Type: RBF*

    Personality tests: which one did your boss think was a good idea to use during a staff retreat or workplace engagement? How did it play out? And did it make a difference?

    I’m not keen on these types of tests when you don’t have someone who understands the tests and how to help you effectively employ them. Usually they’re a fun thing, but quickly forgotten, rarely to be applied.

    We have our first staff retreat with our new Ex Director. There’s 7 of us. She chose a free Enneagram test. I’ve done a few tests through different conferences (MTBI, DISC, Strengthsfinder, So the results were somewhat close to what I already know about myself.

    1. Bunny Girl*

      We did True Colors at our workplace. Everyone had to take it as part of the hiring process and then you got a little card to put in your work place to say what color you were. It was kind of a joke around the office, not going to lie. Although some things were stunningly accurate.

    2. Jadelyn*

      My team did Strengthsfinder 2.0 last year at our team retreat. It was good – one of the Directors is, idk, certified or whatever with it, and has done this training for other groups many times before, so we had good guidance in the discussion portion. Nothing *super* surprising as far as who had which strengths, but it was interesting to get the bigger picture and see where we had gaps – we had some big gaps in analytical thinking, turns out, basically just me and one other guy on the East Coast team.

    4. Unique Name*

      Oooh, I have feelings about personality tests and this one in particular. I had a boss use it, IMO, in a very unprofessional manner and I’m still a bit sore about it. E.g. to a coworker, ‘Oh, I know 9s don’t like to give straight answers but I really need this information from you’ (when asking a question, for the third time, that genuinely didn’t have a clear answer at that moment). When she did it to me, I was polite but clear that I didn’t feel my number applied to me and I wasn’t comfortable being labeled that way. Then in my annual review she cited one of my attributes as being due to my particular number. That did not go down well with me and my reaction to it did not go down well with her.

    5. MintLavendar*

      I’ve never done them at work and honestly, I don’t think I ever would. I think they _can_ be valuable, to individuals, for individual reasons, because they encourage introspection and because different things resonate with different people. I have real doubts that they can or should be relied on within an organization to improve communication, contribute to or decide on promotions, etc. I’d be skeptical that their administration, the testing time, and the time to implement would be worth it compared to the million other things the org could be doing.

    6. MinotJ*

      Years ago, a job got all the employees from different branches together for an all-day seminar on “How To Deal With Difficult People”. It had us all take a quiz that put our work personality along two axes: introverted/extroverted and data-focused/feelings-focused. We ended up in four categories: Get it done, Get it right, Get along, and Get attention.

      You can see that one of those categories is very different than the others. As we were separated to sit with others in our “type”, we could all see that the people who were the most difficult to work with had ended up in “Get attention”. They were definitely difficult to deal with as colleagues, but I felt so bad for them. It was obvious that the whole day had been organized to let these people know that they were the annoying coworkers.

  113. Elsa*

    I had a 30 minute phone interview for a senior management position in academia. I have some additional concrete examples of my work based on their questions – any advice for including some in my thank you email?

    1. Kathenus*

      Generally speaking, the only time I’ve ever offered additional information is if there was a really key thing I thought they needed to know that I realized later. Then you could mention it along the lines of “it was great meeting with you and learning more about the position and your organization. I realized that when we discussed llama welfare I didn’t remember to mention my certification in llama enrichment and training that would be very useful in this area. Please let me know if you’d like any additional information, and thanks again”

      I wouldn’t just list additional examples to a question you already answered, but as above there might be something very important that you remembered later. For me, that would be the extend I’d be comfortable with addressing after the fact. Just one opinion on it. Good luck.

      1. And another thing...*

        I’ve been on numerous academic managent search committees and really, we didn’t consider anything outside of official interview channels. It can’t hurt to put in maybe one example; it probably hurts if you list more, as it can look like you’re trying to get a do-over on a question. I’d let it go, write a brief thank you, and then put the interview as much out of your mind as possible.

  114. Not Today Satan*

    Is anyone else having issues with their comments not showing up immediately? I can’t tell if my IP is flagged (which I don’t know why it would be) or if it’s a site-wide problem.

    1. Not Today Satan*

      Hah, but this one showed up right away… maybe the site just isn’t reloading automatically for me.

      1. Peaches*

        Not currently, but this is happened to me before. I’ll post my comment again, only for the original comment to magically appear.

    2. The Man, Becky Lynch*

      If there’s a lag, they’re probably in moderation.

      If you put in your optional email address in the form below your Name, it will actually give you a notification that it’s in moderation. So you see it with the note.

      It’s in moderation because of assorted reasons, usually a word that’s triggering the system to moderate it, there’s a lot of random ones so you never know.

  115. New Employee*

    Help please!

    I just started at a new company a couple of weeks ago. A very well intentioned friend gave me the name of one of his previous classmates that works at my new company. He thought we’d get along really well and thought it would be nice to have a contact at my new company. He told her that I’d probably be reaching out. I’ve been here a couple of weeks and he’s already brought it up a couple times asking if I’ve reached out and mentioned to my boyfriend that he hopes that I will reach out to her. So I probably should…

    The problem is this is a large organization, our paths do not cross at all, and we have very different roles – so there’s no way for me to organically meet her and say “Oh, you’re so and so’s friend – nice to meet you!”. I think my only option is an email introduction but what do I say? Please help. I’m literally frozen in awkwardness.

    1. TotesMaGoats*

      Hi, friend told me you worked here and i wanted to reach out and say hello. I’m not sure if our paths will cross in the near future but any time you might be free for a cup of coffee and an in person chat, I’d be happy to do that. I’ve really enjoyed my new role here. X company seems like a great place to be.

      It’s that simple.

      1. New Employee*

        I followed something very similar to this. Thank you!!

        I know it is a really simple thing but for some reason, this was so hard for me. My introvert tendencies took over. I appreciate your help!

  116. Just a thought*

    I am certain I’ve seen this topic covered before, but I couldn’t find it while searching so here goes:
    I manage the owner’s son.
    I joined this company about a year and a half ago and took some staff management over from the CEO (not related). The owner’s son was one of the employees. He’s been here a few years longer, but he’s at an associate level and basically got to create his own job in the marketing department (social media manager, but our presence is deliberately limited). He’s a pleasant person, but a pretty terrible employee. He has no drive or initiative, and whatever effort he puts into a project lasts about a week before that project mysteriously doesn’t happen. He had just started a project when I joined, and it got finished when I took it over 8 months later – in about 10 hours.
    He refuses to adhere to schedules (In by 8? He sends a message at 8:30 saying he’ll be in by 9:30.) and gives no notice before taking PTO — and takes PTO even when it puts him in the negative.
    I know it is impossible to manage without authority (the CEO has talked to the owner specifically about this, as he’d be top of the layoff list if he wasn’t protected, and the owner won’t do anything). It is killing morale amongst the employees who see this happening but themselves have to adhere to the rules. The management team is just hanging on until he decides to quit, which he might do if he can find a new job (which is… well… going to be difficult given his work history here).
    What I need help with is how do I help keep everyone sane while this is happening?

    1. Manders*

      Oof, I’m sorry, this situation sucks.

      For some reason, a ton of business owners see the marketing department as a place to warehouse relatives (maybe because they don’t really understand marketing and they think it’s easy, or they trust what their relatives are telling them about results because they don’t know how to check the analytics themselves).

      At this point, I think all you can really do is manage around him–assume that every project he’s given is going to be mishandled, that he won’t show up on time, that he may just not be in the office randomly, etc. Do what you can make sure the rest of the department gets recognition and raises, and that their work never requires waiting for him or needing him to perform to a high standard. Lower your expectations and make it easy for the rest of the department to go around him.

      Ultimately, I think there is going to be some resentment, and you probably will lose some good people. I don’t think there’s a way around it with this kind of nepotism–some people just don’t like working in this kind of environment.

    2. Four lights*

      This stinks. Maybe it will help you to feel better if you think of him less like an employee and more like a little kid playing at daddy’s office. Or a dog.

  117. Anon for this*

    I’m sure next week I’ll be over this, but I’ve had a hard time refraining from snapping at a colleague this week. She’s been turning off the large TV monitors that are used in some of our campus’s classrooms and meeting rooms to project people’s computer screens and other displays. The problem is, turning off one of those monitors completely means that it can take up to 45 minutes to connect with the campus’s WiFi again. There’s a simpler way that just blanks the screen and leaves the monitor on and connected, but my colleague claims that even the black screen with a tiny “ON” light in the corner is “too distracting.” And she’s been going into classrooms she doesn’t actually teach in and meeting rooms she doesn’t meet in and turning off the monitors there, since she claims she gets “distracted” walking down the hallway and seeing the lit screens through the door windows. People actually thought these (really expensive!) monitors were malfunctioning until someone caught her turning one off right before a meeting when someone had put up their presentation and then left the room for a minute.

    Now people are irritated with her and she’s sulking nonstop about it. FFS. You’re a grown adult woman who vastly overstepped because of this “distracting” B.S. There were simpler solutions all around, including putting up some kind of block over the “ON” light in the corner of the monitor and staying out of rooms that didn’t concern you. Grow up.

      1. Anon for this*

        Yes, she was. People would go in and not be able to show lecture notes/slides/images/video to their classes because she had turned the monitor off and it would take over half the class to connect again. Meetings were disrupted because the same thing was happening with agendas, notes, and other documents that people wanted to show on the monitor. And she’s being self-righteous about it and asking, “Does anyone actually use those things?” and acting baffled when all of us said, “YES.” (I mean, I know she’s been in meetings where agendas and the like were on those monitors because I was in them with her!)

        It would all have blown over a lot faster if she had just apologized instead of acting like she had some kind of right because “They distraaaaaacted me.”

        1. Middle School Teacher*

          She sounds insufferable. I’m sorry you’re having to deal with this, it’s annoying. Hopefully since she is, as Temperance pointed out, she’s actively dealt with by a manager. (I’d also like to point out that people like her make it harder for people who have actual accommodation needs to have them met.)

          1. Anon for this*

            I haven’t dealt with her very often before this because the last few semesters we taught classes in different buildings, but now she’s teaching in the same one I’m in and it’s so tiring. She also wanted to move one of her classes into one of my classrooms for a week to “have more room” for some kind of activity, didn’t check whether or not the room was free during the time slot she wanted, and acted all baffled when I told her that I’d been there every week of the semester two times a week. She actually tried to tell me to come back 40 minutes later when she was done- so 40 minutes of MY class time- and I said no and made her and her students leave.

            I was really pissed at that last stunt and complained, and there was an official e-mail that for the “activity” she had planned, she would have to move down the hall to an empty room. Then we found out about the monitors and now everyone has joined me in being annoyed. Apparently her department head has had a fairly stern conversation with her, so that;s good.

    2. Parenthetically*

      Hahahahaha she is ridiculous! Distracted by a lit screen through the window in a door as she walked down the hallway?! Oh for crying out loud. She needs to get a grip on her whole life.

      1. Anon for this*

        The thing is, if she does have a medical or ADA reason for that, she could have asked for accommodations. Our campus is really good about granting them. And other people could have been told to turn the monitors to the blank screen but ON status so that she didn’t have to do it, either. But she didn’t ask for anything. She just charged ahead and did it, and now is upset that people are upset with her.

    3. Montresaur*

      Wait, so…she’s walking down the hall, the ON light catches her eye, and she has to turn it off because it’s “too distracting”? Can she not just look away and keep walking? Will she get sucked into the light and be trapped until it turns off, like a literal insect?

      I obviously don’t have any advice here, but that sounds infuriating, and I don’t blame you for your frustration.

      1. Iris Eyes*

        If I had to guess she might be “distracted” by the power usage of things that are on and not being used.

        1. valentine*

          This was my thought, or she thinks it’s like a webcam and feels watched, because distraction is laughable. Is she a horse? No one’s stopping her wearing blinders or using a different route. Even closing all the doors would waste too much time.

      2. Anon for this*

        No, she would say that a lit monitor would catch her eye. But even the blank monitors with tiny ON lights kept getting turned off in the classrooms where she taught because she couldn’t stand them.

        There are still some classrooms without those monitors that she could have asked for, but did she? Noooo. She did nothing but the most passive-aggressive thing that would cause the most trouble for everyone else.

        Thanks for the sympathy. I’m just baffled that a woman in 50’s is acting like this.

        1. silverpie*

          This triggered a high school memory of mine. In our computer lab, if you turned the computer off but left the monitor on, it would give out a super-high-pitched sound—so high, in fact, that very few people can hear it.

          I am one of those people. And that pitch is one that is seriously physically painful for me. (Part of ASD, I now realize, but this was before that concept was known.)

          And there was no LED on the monitor: the only visible indication was the slightly-pushed-in button. People would mock me for complaining, but it subsided somewhat when I actually found and turned off the offending devices… and it was helpful to them sometimes when a malfunctioning one would be so loud that even they could hear it.

          Anyway, I have to agree that a light you can just walk by shouldn’t be such a problem. My first thought was something like my experience, but I think she would have said that directly if it were the case.

          1. Anon for this*

            I do think it could be an accommodation issue, but then, yeah, she would have to a) actually speak up and ask for the accommodation, b) accept that people would still be using the monitors in spaces she isn’t in, and c) not interfere in workspaces/classrooms that are none of her business and that she’s just walking past. “Accommodation” doesn’t mean “ensure that nobody else can use the technology,” and I’m sure in your case, ensuring those devices or monitors was turned off wasn’t a big deal.

            1. silverpie*

              Right, since the actual computer was off, turning the monitor off too didn’t cause any harm (had to do it myself because no one else noticed, but no big deal on that point).

  118. FrustrationStation*

    Does anybody have suggestions for employees with a terminally unavailable boss?

    Everyone in my office is frustrated with our boss right now because he is always crazy busy and doesn’t get back our assignments/answer questions in a timely manner. This is mainly because nearly everything we write has to go through him before we can send it out. He’s not really open to any of our suggestions either. We’re also never told when our meetings will start late or if a planned office lunch will be much later than planned, so it wastes our time and makes every0ne question what’s going on. Obviously, it’s frustrating everyone but we’re not sure how to address it with him. Any ideas?

    1. Bismuth*

      I’m gonna channel Allison here: talk calmly about impacts — extra time things take, angry clients — and ask “how can we change this process?” I’d also suggest going as group, but organically — 2 of 3 of you meeting with him on a project, or raise it in a meeting. Don’t pile on, just have some solidarity.

      I’d also follow up in email so you have a paper trail, especially of suggestions for solutions! But honestly, you’ll probably have to learn to work around — bring work to meetings, keep a file of items to follow up on, whatever it takes.

  119. Nonni*

    How do I deal with a coworker who dislikes me because I’m good at my job?

    I work at a very small firm (not law, but structure-wise it’s similar.) I have almost no say over which projects I get – the supervising partner just picks someone based on schedule and past performance. I get picked for a lot of projects, and one of my coworkers is getting more and more obvious in her jealousy/insecurity over this.

    The kicker is she is also good at her job! My supervisor likes working with her and picks her for projects frequently. Help.

    1. Catsaber*

      Just be pleasantly professional and helpful like you would to anyone. Don’t treat her any differently.

      It sucks but she will need to get over it herself. If you treat her with the same kind of kindness and respect you would anyone else, typically those people will figure out how to manager their feelings. Sometimes, they can get rude or mean – and when that happens, then you can go to your manager or the appropriate person to handle it.

      But until then, just be kind and helpful, it goes a long way.

  120. C*

    1. I have a phone interview next week and am preparing in all the usual ways. I know I’ll have to have some salary range numbers on deck, but I don’t know of a graceful way to frame that information. Does anyone have some phrasing that has worked for them, or some Allison has suggested in the past? I should give a range, right?

    2. The other thing is salary range. The job I’m applying for is in a very different market (30% difference in cost of living), so I’m trying hard to research what the going rate is for my job title there. Other than Glassdoor and Indeed, is there any other hidden gem for salary numbers?

    THANK YOUUUUU <3

    1. Emily S.*

      Payscale dot com is a good place to do salary research, and also salary dot com.

      Definitely go high. If you give a range, understand they will probably lean toward the bottom of the range, so make it a high range – but not ridiculously high. Base it on your research.

  121. atexit8*

    My friend has had a spotty work history for the past 10-15 years.
    This most recent unemployment has lasted 3 years.
    She is now 50.
    She keeps applying for high-profile positions where I am inwardly thinking there is no way they are going to hire you for it — Think Director of TeapotMaking.

    Mainly I am thinking employers are not going to bring someone in who has been laid off for the past 3 years.

    When I worked in megacorps the people who held these positions had resume of a continuous succession of jobs of
    increasing or similar responsibilities.

    Am I wrong?

    1. Temperance*

      I think it sort of depends on what her background is, and why she’s been out of work for 3 years. I don’t think someone who has been unemployed for 3 years, and presumably out of touch with the workforce for that long, would have current enough experience to land a high-profile position.

    2. Flat Penny*

      It may be wasted air to try to convince her to set her sights lower, but no, you’re not wrong.

      1. irene adler*

        Agreed.
        If she receives a string of rejections, she might begin to wonder why.
        At which point then you can broach this by asking her how she is demonstrating that she meets the job description requirements.
        It’s not a matter of the titles one has held; it’s a matter of the skills one possesses. I’m dealing with a similar situation with someone myself. They were a manager before (10+ years ago) so they should start at manager level when applying for jobs now.

    3. Washi*

      I’m assuming that these director jobs she’s applying for are not a step down from her previous work? Like if you had been a CEO of large company and then took 3 years off for whatever reason, I could imagine applying to director jobs when trying to re-enter the workforce.

      But if she’s applying for jobs that would be a big step up from her previous work 3 years ago with a spotty employment history…then yeah, seems not that realistic.

    4. MintLavendar*

      Ugh. I mean, you’re probably right, but it’s pretty crappy for you or anyone else to assume that 3 years out (of a decades-long career!) is disqualifying. There are a million reasons why a person might get laid off or leave a job, and a million more reasons why they didn’t return to the field right away. Three years is just not that long, outside of really fast moving professions like tech (and even then, the leadership level change is going to move MUCH more slowly than the rank-and-file tech change).

      None of this is against you, of course… you’re not wrong. But it sucks and I wish more people recognized that. Smart, talented people get laid off all the time, and people with lots of options at senior levels should be able to take a couple years off without finding themselves pushed out of the market!

    5. The Man, Becky Lynch*

      It’s not wrong for her to try, you never know what the applicant pool looks like at any given time. So it’s always worth trying. However if she thinks she’s a shoo-in, then she’s really miscalculating there.

      Yes, often if you haven’t been picked up for a director position after that time and aren’t trying for other lower rung roles, you’re doing yourself a huge disservice and may find yourself never working again in reality. However it’s not a given at any time that you won’t be hired for a role if you have the background that’s required. Not all jobs will mean you’re stagnant after a few years of being on the shelf.

      She has to be able to give a good answer to why it’s taken her 3 years to find a job. If that includes that she took personal time off, that’s just fine but it gets harder to believe as it gets longer and longer. So it starts to very well look like someone is not interested in actually working. I wouldn’t assume she hadn’t had work in that time, I’d assume she’s had work she’s not discussing or she’s turned down offers because of some personal reason which would make me nervous about bothering to look into her as a candidate.

      Gaps and reentering the workforce aren’t deal breakers but they’re stumbling blocks.

  122. Anon for now*

    Folks who have dealt with open offices – help. My company is switching from everyone having their own office to an open office plan, possibly even with hotdesking although maybe we’ll get assigned spaces. But it’s definitely happening, and I’m freaking out.

    I’m an introvert. I also have OCD and general anxiety, and the idea of being in a space that I can’t control and can’t predict from day to day, with no way to shut out other folks or have a quiet space to go to, is giving me daily panic attacks. Up until now, my mental health issues haven’t impacted my work (I’ve been here for five years), and I’ve never disclosed them to HR or anyone else because of the potential for stigma, but also because it didn’t really seem relevant. Most people think I’m warm, calm, and friendly, so I think they’d be surprised to hear how bad things are inside my head.

    Now, however, I feel trapped in an impossible situation. Either I out myself, disclose my issues to HR, ask for accommodation, and feel miserable because I’m the only person with an office or special treatment and all my other coworkers, who are equally unhappy about the switch, give me the side eye. Or I say nothing, deal with it on my own (I’m in therapy and on meds), and feel miserable because this situation is driving me crazy.

    Is there a middle ground I’m not seeing? Or other accomodations short of having my own office that have worked for others of you with social anxiety? What would accommodation even look like? I don’t want to be the only person with an office, nor do I want to work from home all or most of the time. Is this worth quitting over and finding a job that better suits my mental health?

    Could really use thoughts from folks who have dealth with this before. Thanks in advance.

    1. Rainy days*

      I hate open office plans, and I do think the open office has contributed negatively to my mental health at work at times, although probably not as severely as what you’re describing. I’ve dealt with the open office layout through extensive use of headphones + asmr / focus music, plus escaping to empty meeting rooms when possible. Also, even when we didn’t have assigned desks, people tended to gravitate to the same desks each day, so there was less variation than one would have expected. How well those things will work depends on you and your office dynamics.

      I would suggest talking to someone who is knowledgeable about the new layout and trying to address some of your concerns. You don’t need to talk about mental health; you can frame it as, “I’m concerned about noise levels and distractions. What options will there be for quiet work spaces?” Knowing what options you will have may help alleviate your anxiety. For me, the anxiety caused by the anticipation of something like this is often worse than the anxiety caused by the actual experience, and getting an accurate picture of what it will be like is the best way to help combat that. That’s why I’d say that if you’re otherwise happy in your job, I wouldn’t quit over it until after you try it–you may be stronger than you give yourself credit for and be able to handle it better than you expect. But you know yourself best, so if this truly is a deal-breaker, then absolutely listen to your inner voice and start job-searching.

      1. Anon for now*

        Thank you, Rainy Days. This is such a thoughtful and reasonable approach, and I really appreciate the words of encouragement. You are totally correct that a lot of my anxiety is catastrophizing and fear of the unknown, so getting more information will help with that, and I shouldn’t put the cart before the horse and quit before I even see what it’s like. Your comment gave me a lot of hope!

        1. valentine*

          You don’t need a middle ground and you don’t have to specify mental health. Your doctor can write a note saying that, for medical reasons, you require a solitary, reasonably quiet space with a door you can shut. Your need trumps another’s preference. I prefer solitude, but an open space doesn’t hurt me. You shouldn’t have to suffer. That’s not solidarity because the space doesn’t hurt your colleagues. Disengage from how your colleagues feel and come up with something to say in case they make snide comments to you. “Needs must”? The more they complain, the more you know you can’t trust them with the truth and they’re deeply unprofessional and juvenile. This is like the service dog. Go get your office.

          1. Ask a Manager* Post author

            Just to be clear, employers aren’t required to comply with doctor’s notes. If you have a condition covered under the ADA, they need to enter the interactive process with you to determine what accommodations will work, but they don’t need to accept the one your doctor suggests. (They might! I just don’t want the poster to think a doctor’s note = a done deal.)

      2. Alianora*

        Agreed — give it a try first, it may not be that bad. Before I started working in an office, I thought I would hate the lack of privacy in a cubicle farm or open office. But now that I’ve worked in both my own workspace and shared ones, I actually prefer to have coworkers physically around instead of behind closed doors. It’s easier for quick questions and for building work relationships.

        For the record, I’m also an introvert and have been diagnosed with anxiety. People at my job are good about not being disruptive and respecting each others’ privacy, which I’m sure makes a huge difference.

        Coping tactics:
        – Going outside for a quick walk
        – Booking one of the smaller meeting rooms for work that requires intensive concentration
        – Keeping my desk and computer very organized
        – Bringing up issues to my manager

    2. Just a thought*

      You have my greatest sympathies. I’ve worked in several open offices and I hate it. I always feel like people are looking over my shoulder, or I’m typing too loud, or sipping my tea too loud, or unconsciously rolling my chair in a weird way, or just generally having itchy shoulder blades.

      I will stop you and say that it’s unlikely you’re the only one that has strong reservations, or the only one that’s going to have their work seriously impacted by the change. You mention your coworkers giving you sideeye for accommodations because they also don’t like the change – why not band with them? Messages do tend to be stronger in groups. If you have a work friend, tap them to get the group talk started rather than trying to do it on your own (not because you can’t, just because you might not feel up to it and timing is important!). If you don’t, maybe schedule a time to talk to HR anyway.

      You might not need to bring any accommodation stuff into it. Hotdesking and open offices have plenty of research showing that they lead to less productive working environments, and it might be worth bringing up to them in that context. “I’ve seen a lot of research that calls open office plans into question. Can we talk about how to make these changes as positive as possible?”

      You also didn’t mention WHY they were changing. Are you moving offices? Do they need extra floorspace in the current office because they’re expanding? There is room to discuss each scenario in addition to the flat facts about open offices. Cubes are a better solution than offices -> hotdesking by far, and they’re not terribly expensive relative to the extra effort they have to put in to getting entirely new furniture to enable the open office plan to begin with.

      Good luck! If all else fails, don’t ignore your needs for the sake of the group. Keeping the harmony is one thing, but sacrificing your comfort, ability to do your work, or job itself to do so is quite another. Your company would appreciate knowing if this change is going to lose them valued employees!

      1. Anon for now*

        Thanks so much for this comment, I really appreciate it. The change is purely financially motivated – I work in consulting, so folks are out of the office a lot, so management basically said why are we paying for all this real estate when half the offices are empty at any given time, let’s move to a smaller, more flexible office space. It makes sense from a purely financial standpoint, but I don’t know a single coworker who is happy about it. Folks have already raised concerns about noise and distraction, where they are going to keep all their files/paperwork, how people who take confidential calls all day are going to handle it, what nursing moms are going to do, and all the research showing it hurts productivity, most of which management responds to with “it’s just a minor inconvenience, this is best for the company as a whole and you’ll like it once you get used to it, we promise.” You’re right though, framing it as “this could lose us valuable employees” might get their attention more, whereas right now I think they think we are all just whining because we don’t like change.

        1. Just a thought*

          They’re not wrong – lots of time, change is hard to accept even if you’re going to not notice it or think about it much after a month or so.

          Where they are wrong, though, is in assuming that will be the case for this. I think that’s the bottom line behind all their “minor inconvenience” waving away, and the angle you should take since this is cost motivated. It’s expensive to hire new people!

  123. SOAS*

    On another note..I went out for a drive and it felt so strange yet nice to be driving in sunlight on a weekday.

    Tax season is finally over, it was so slow and yet so quick. This feels like my new year’s, as the first few weeks I was away for family things, and came back swinging to 60 hour workweeks. Today’s my day off after 20 straight days of working. Last night was our bowling party and it was actually more fun than I anticipated.

    Looking forward to 3 days off.

  124. Lovecraft Beauty*

    My department director is having a baby in a few weeks, and going on parental leave; is this an appropriate time for us to give them a (small) present? If so, what might be a good idea? I’m thinking Audible credits for books to listening to while the baby nurses, or meal delivery giftcards. (We’re in a major urban area and I know which takeout app they use.)

    1. Laura H.*

      The whole “gifts should flow downward” convention bears mentioning, but I don’t know all the factors so, I offer it as something to consider rather than a hard fast no.

      If you do decide to gift, I think the delivery gift card is an excellent idea (especially if the spouse also works.) Benefits the entire family as they adjust to their new normal.

    2. Parenthetically*

      I actually think having a baby is a notable exception to the “gifts should flow downward” rule, as long as it’s a freely-given supportive token rather than a strong-armed or lavish gift. Would you do the same for another colleague going through a life transition? Then I think it’s appropriate here. And yes, meal delivery gift cards would be AMAZING.

      1. Policy wonk*

        Yes, where I work unique life events (wedding, birth/adoption of a child) are singled out as the exception to a rule that forbids gifts to your boss valued at over $5. Not knowing your area or boss I can’t say which is the better gift, but be sure she uses/likes Audible or the meal delivery. I can’t tell you how many Starbucks gift cards I have received and given away because I’m not a fan.

    3. Four lights*

      You could also check and see if she still has anything on her registry, or what store she registered at that you could get a gift card to.

    4. NotAPirate*

      Definitely at least have all your people sign a card for them. That’s <$4 and shows you're thinking of them.

      What has been done in the past for new parents? I'm super leery of having to give money at work, I prefer to give to my friends baby showers rather than my distant coworker you know? Also you don't know what everyone's financial situation is, they may be paying for schooling or elder care or other debts. If you do take up a collection toward a giftcard make it a casual "hey we're collecting money for Boss, if you want to give any the envelope will be at the admin's desk" etc, not a checklist of so and so only paid this much.

      1. Parenthetically*

        Yeah, we always passed a card and sent around the Meal Train email. If people wanted to tuck some cash in for a gift card or sign on to the Meal Train, that was up to them. I’ve never heard of a workplace doing a checklist — that’s SUPER gross, definitely don’t do that.

  125. coffee cup*

    I posted last week that I thought a job application I submitted was rubbish. Well… this week I was invited for an interview!

    It’s my first one in many years (current job has been a long haul). I am already nervous. It’s in a city where I know nobody, but it’s a job I think would give me good experience, is a bigger company, etc. But the thought of change always terrifies me. My mum was a bit sad when I told her, instead of being excited for me, because she obviously doesn’t want me to move further away, and that kind of deflated me a bit. Plus my friend I tell everything to, I can’t tell her this because I work with her. I just don’t want anyone near work to know.

    I don’t even know what to wear, what to research, what to expect… it’s been so long! I’m sure it’s not that different, but you know… I am anxious anyway. And even if I got it, do I want to move to a place I don’t know anyone and start over in my mid-30s? Actually, a bit yeah, but not a huge deal. I don’t know. I didn’t expect this!

    Can anyone calm me down a bit?!

    1. Four lights*

      First of all, remind yourself that you don’t have to make any decisions until they give you an offer.

      2. coffee cup*

        True indeed. I just overthink and worry too much. It’s not something I thought would happen and I want to do well even if I decide it isn’t for me, or if they don’t give me an offer.

    2. Akcipitrokulo*

      I moved from Strathclyde to Home Counties a few years back – which isn’t exactly the same as I did know some people, but it was a bit stressful.

      Meeting people happens. Work colleagues often do something together, even if just the odd pub lunch or get together… but finding things to get you out the house helps.

      Good luck! Yes, you can do it :D

  126. Missy*

    I was talking with someone about how unfair the hiring process is — I know so many people who are so qualified, and so smart, but their titles aren’t as fancy as someone else who got lucky out of school with a specific trajectory. For example, one woman I know is brilliant — she knows everything about the organization, she can all the operations, she’s proactive, and she’s the go-to person for everyone’s questions in the office. She got passed over for the Director of Operations job (who, she says, is running the company in the ground). She’s been an admin for 7 years and makes $17/hr and only dreams of making a better salary. She has a degree too.

    Meanwhile, some d*** I used to work with, who got fired for harassment, inappropriate behavior, and making ZERO (literally 0%) of his quota over half a year, is now the VP of some bank where he’s a MENTOR to young entrepreneurs and is making probably around $200k a year.

    What do you think is a better hiring solution? In a FANTASY WORLD, where people are hired based on skill and fit, instead of clout, what would be the process instead?

    1. dumblewald*

      It would be nice if discrimination and sexism were no longer a thing in the world that affected hiring decisions, but they are unfortunately.

    2. Maya Elena*

      I think a lot of it comes down to mentality: as Alison says, hiring is a two-way street, and often employees don’t exercise agency that they do have – and accept terms that they don’t have to legally or economically. In your example, sure – it’s shitty that Mr. D. got a goodie he didn’t deserve; but it’s not Your Coworker’s Goodie that he took; and unless your employer is the only one in town, or the only one with decent benefits, your coworker probably has options outside your company which are well within her power to exercise. That she doesn’t might be her own contentment, her own complacency, her own insecurities – but not necessarily “the system”.

      Because you can’t actually fix everyone away from being kind, objective, unprejudiced, diligent and honest, I would actually argue against rules, and structure systems that counter consolidation and lower barrier to entry both for employers and employees. With more options and easier ability to leave jobs or hire employees, I think the harm caused by bad actors is reduced across-the-board.

      1. Missy*

        So what you’re saying is you think that you don’t think anything should change about the current resume system, and the issue is not applying to enough jobs?

        1. Rick Tq*

          You don’t know if the d*** at the bank has cleaned up his act or if he is doing a good job or not. We have had sales reps at our company do zero sales for months before they got on their feet and a year or more before they met quota.

          Nothing can change without the solution being FAR worse for favoritism/special treatment.

          Find me an angel that candistribute jobs absolutely fairly without bias and we can talk.

    3. The Man, Becky Lynch*

      The thing is, to get what you want in the work world, you have to be ready and willing to find something and somewhere that respects your knowledge.

      I’ve been that person who built themselves up and got places because like that admin, I can handle operations without any issue and quickly catch onto the processes required to make the organization tick.

      She needs to take herself over to a company that isn’t passing her over constantly and disregarding her that way. It’s hard AF but you have to be in charge of your own destiny at times. Dreams are great but you have to put them into full action after awhile or they die and make you bitter.

      Some will be dealt the Royal Flush in Life and that’s sad but the world isn’t fair, the world is tilted and we have to keep working with ourselves to balance out our slice of it any way we can. It’s not about fair, it’s about getting what you want and what you deserve, instead of just swallowing yourself up in a world of pity and frustration.

      Most people aren’t just handed anything, the d*** will still probably fall to the ground at some point. Many of them crash to the world when their trust funds dry up or someone important that they know is found to be no longer tolerable by others.

      In a perfect world you know people better before you hire them. You have more data on them and more reason to trust them. Instead of just the hour or few that you get to know them in interviewing process and relying on their obviously biased references. But that’s literally impossible because humans are complex and trust will always need to be earned, if you’re good at manipulation and bulldozing the right places, you will always get in somewhere.

  127. blackcat*

    This was weird, right? It happened a few months ago. FWIW, I’m an academic, but toying with leaving academia. I worked “in the real world” before, so I’m interviewing for returning to that career. My PhD is related enough that it’s a plus.

    I traveled to do an interview. I was so-so on the area, and would have had to think carefully about moving–it would mean a move for my partner, too. There were things I really liked about the organization, but other things I wasn’t thrilled about.

    A few days later, they offered me the job via email. They said the $$ was firm and non-negotiable and they wanted to know in 24 hours. I immediately responded, asking for more time (this was a Wednesday, so I asked to have until Monday to consider, noting my spouse was out of town and I wanted to talk to him when he got back about it) and benefits information. I got the benefits info late Wednesday night, and was told to give an answer by Friday morning. Knowing I couldn’t give an affirmative answer by Friday morning, I turned down the job first thing Thursday.

    Friday afternoon comes around, and Big Boss calls asking if I was sure about my answer. I said, well, if I had had more time, I might have considered, but I wasn’t going to agree to move after just ~48 hours to consider. He said, well, have until Monday. I said I didn’t think my answer would change at that point unless they’d move significantly on salary (it was okay, but not a great offer), but he told me to check in again on Monday but that the salary was firm. I send an email on Saturday, reiterating my no. I get an email Monday morning, asking if there is anything other than salary I’d consider. I said no again.

    Why didn’t they just give me until Monday to consider in the first place? Is a request for an answer in 24 hours normal? And is it normal to have a manager keep pushing you to reconsider if you say no? It seemed like a red flag to me, but I’ve been outside of the “normal” working world for the better part of a decade at this point.

    2. Youth*

      It’s like a guy that you potentially could be interested in, but you want to take things slow and he wants you to commit to him after a few dates. So you’re all, “Okay, dude, then I’m going to have to turn you down because that’s TOO FAST.” Coulda been a great relationship–but you’ll never know because of the insane pressure.

    3. BlueDays*

      It sounds like they really want to hire you for the position, and know you’re worth more than they’re offering, so they tried to pressure you with a 24-hour deadline to say “yes.” And then they kept giving you more time to decide because they still really want you for the position.

      I think both are big red flags (trying to put pressure on you to accept an offer and then not accepting your “no” twice).

    4. Penguin*

      For what it’s worth, this sounds exactly like the kind of thing job seekers DO want to be wary of. You asked for a perfectly reasonable amount of time to think over the offer and they were weird about it, THEN they badgered you multiple times trying to get you to change your “no”? I think you dodged a bullet. If they’re willing… even eager… to ignore your boundaries, be unprofessional, and (apparently?) take your “no” personally when you don’t even work for them, how much worse will they be when you’re safely in the company?

      Put another way, they’re pressuring you to act without having time to think about your actions- why? (I can’t think of any GOOD answers to that… plenty of bad ones, though!)

      TLDR; this isn’t normal, IS very likely indicative of an unhealthy/toxic organization, and odds are your instincts served you well.

  128. Millie Mayhem*

    I’ve been interviewing for a new job and am supposed to hear back regarding either a job offer or next steps today. When I initially interviewed, I thought the job sounded really great. However, after having a few days to think about it, I’m not sure if this job is for me. I’ve also done some more research on Glassdoor and am a little concerned about some of the comments I have come across on there.

    There’s no guarantee I’m getting an offer, but if I do, I’ll feel like kind of an idiot because I have conveyed to this employer how excited I am to work for them. Will I look like a total flake if I get an offer and then say “Thank you but this isn’t for me?” The truth is now that I have had adequate time to think about it, I just don’t feel it’s a good fit for where I am in my life. Should I go ahead and reach out and withdraw my candidacy now?

    1. gmg22*

      Were I in your position, I would wait until you get either the offer or the info about next steps. Declining an offer for whatever reason is perfectly acceptable, but your feelings about getting the concrete offer might again surprise you, and you should give yourself that chance to mull over something concrete. Or if it’s info about next steps (another round of interview, I assume?) instead of an offer, that’s also a perfectly good and understandable time to withdraw a candidacy.

      1. Millie Mayhem*

        Thank you! I’ll sit tight until I hear back from them. I suppose I am curious what the details would be if there is an offer, however I’m not sure anything will change my mind on rejecting it at this point.

  129. Beatrice*

    I’m a little heartsick. I had a problem employee three months ago. Dude was well on his way to getting fired. He applied for a transfer to another department and got it. Now his new department is making cuts, and he’s on the cut list. My boss asked me if I’d be willing to take him back so he didn’t get laid off. I said no. It was the right decision, but this is the first time I’ve ever known someone was going to be laid off before it happened, and the first time I’ve had any say in it, and it’s a pretty awful feeling. He’s a terrible employee but a really nice guy. Ughhh.

    1. Liz*

      that’s a tough one but you have to just keep reminding yourself that anything he did to make him be added to the cut list was his doing. Not yours. And if you did take him back, chances are you’d be right back where you were before he transferred. Nice guy or not.

      I had a friend who is a nurse for an organization that runs group homes for adults with disabilities. She was upset that a coworker was fired for repeated tardiness. She kept saying but this person was soooo good with the clients etc. so it was soooo unfair that she was let go.

      The issue was that the homes need 24/7 staffing and by continually being late to work it not only affected the residents but her co-workers who had to stay until she arrived. I finally told her look, she could have been Mother Theresa but if she’s not meeting the job expectations, then they had every right to let her go.

    2. Red Reader the Adulting Fairy*

      :( We have a trainee who transferred into our department from elsewhere in the organization, they’ve been with the org overall for something like 25 years, but they’re just painfully failing at their training. Like, our training process is 3-4 months, and has proven successful over the last few years for a variety of trainees (both internal transfers and brand new folks), and they’re almost done with their sixth month of training and about halfway through the program. We’re hoping we can send them back to their old department, where they apparently were amazing, but we haven’t heard yet whether the old department has a position for them.

    3. Not Me*

      I used to work for one of the big eight banks during the housing crisis. I remember sitting at home at night still working on severance pools thinking “these poor people have no idea”.

      Firing people is a big part of my job, and I don’t have a problem with it 99% of the time because it’s the right thing to do. But laying people off is always hard.

  130. Amber Rose*

    I get it now.

    Even if it’s not negative or judgemental or whatever. Having people comment on my lunch is becoming exhausting.
    Since I’ve started eating hot lunches as part of this sort of diet people apparently feel the need to talk about it every single day.

    I never realized how painful it was to diet or just eat food while working since I almost never ate lunch before.

    Sigh.

    Also (hopefully this isn’t too revealing) I like drinking but I don’t like drinking with coworkers and I really don’t want to drink a Death in the Afternoon in the middle of the day or after work prior to dinner. I get crazy sick if I’m hungry and drink.

    1. Bunny Girl*

      I do love a good Death in the Afternoon myself, but I’m the same way. I can’t drink on an empty stomach, no matter how much I like the drink. I also don’t eat dairy when I’m with co-workers because I can never tell what my reaction will be. Will I just bloat or will I cough for 45 minutes while I struggle to catch my breath or will I just vomit everywhere? It’s those little things you just don’t want your coworkers privy to.

  131. Help, I Need Somebody*

    Hey all. I’m in desperate need of some encouragement. I’m two weeks into a 12-week certification process towards realizing a long-time bucket list item. Once I’m done, it will help me in my current job, and then past retirement. I’m regretting it almost every day because the learning new stuff is so overwhelming. I keep wondering why I started. Then I kick myself and get motivated to try harder. Then I regret it again. Any wise words?

    1. Human Watering Pot*

      Congratulations! You are clearly motivated and you recognize that this is a great opportunity for you. The good news is you only have ten weeks left! That means you will be done before July. It sounds like you don’t have a lot of time, but if you could think of something to look forward to in order to treat yourself for your hard work, that can always help. I used to build paper chains and rip one off for every day until the end of a semester. I also had a tradition of getting a special ice cream cone I loved. Perhaps thinking of a simple reward at the end of all this (other than your certification, of course!) would be helpful in keeping yours spirits up.

      You can do this! You are capable of learning these things, and you’ll be able to look back on this experience with renewed pride and belief in yourself.

    2. NoLongerYoungButLotsWiser*

      Following – I was about to post on something I’m thinking of doing, that would offer me this -and I’m risk adverse, so… afraid that I’ll get partway through and my brain won’t retain it, or that I won’t be able to complete it. (I signed up for but could not complete a prior course in a different area when hubby’s cancer metastasized). Or that I will (quite possible) find it boring when I’m done….because I’d be shifting roles, too (same company)

      If you’ve successfully completed courses (college, grad school, certification, specialized training) in the past, remind yourself that you can do this and you always had moments then when you questioned your decisions – but that you made it through.

      Some research shows that learning new things is good for the neuroplasticity, so I’m trying to pitch it to myself that rather than fear, I should regard this as a way to help myself continue to work with a healthy brain by continuing to grow my skill set.

      Kudos to you for doing what I wish I was (and hope to do).

      1. Help, I Need Somebody*

        Aw, you’re both AWESOME! I feel better already. I AM a good student, finished several degrees in adulthood, and have always been able to set and follow a learning plan. In fact, I had the same “freeze-fight-flight” emotional roller coaster during my master’s program (can anyone say Accounting for non-accountants?). This new knowledge is just way out of my comfort zone, so I’m doubting myself, but you both rock for the encouraging words. Thanks very much…. gonna go home and learn some hard stuff. I’ll check in occasionally, NoLongerYounger (btw, I’m 58), to see if you’re moving forward!

    3. Its all good*

      Thanks for the question and advice. I have a certification class I signed up for online but keep putting it off. While I love to learn I find here in my 50’s it’s hard to motivate myself and retain new info. Thanks for the kick in the butt.

  132. Allypopx*

    Actual asking for a friend: My friend recently got a promotion when a beloved staff member left. That staff member has expressed interest in returning, and my friend is concerned they’re going to take her promotion away because, again, beloved.

    I told her all the reasons that would be a terrible idea: morale for the other people who saw, the potential of losing her over it, the investment in an employee who has already shown they’re willing to leave, etc. And also advised her of of her rights such as them not being able to decrease her pay retroactively. I don’t think they are going to take her promotion away, but aside from what I already told her is that something they CAN do? Is that something that’s at all common?

    Helpful advice and soothing words for my friend all welcome!

    1. gmg22*

      I think you’ve said all the right things to your friend. But do you have a larger sense of whether her employer is indeed the kind of place that would do this? I’m wondering whether her concern is based more on personal anxiety/still getting her feet under her in the new gig/etc, or if it is based on legit favoritism and poor management that she has seen in action.

      (Corollary comment: If this former staff member is truly “beloved” in the meaningful sense, as opposed to the kind of “beloved” that mostly means “loved and favored by management” one wonders how they could even consider sauntering back into their old job if it meant watching their successor be demoted and lose a raise as a result …)

      1. Allypopx*

        Good question. They seem a normal amount of dysfunctional, I think they’re probably doing some somewhat illegal non-exempt stuff, but I’d like to think they aren’t this level of crappy. That said I know her boss REALLY liked this old employee and upper management isn’t thrilled that my friend negotiated for a higher pay rate when she was promoted.

    2. Red Reader the Adulting Fairy*

      If you’re advising her of “rights” be careful of your wording — they can’t decrease her pay for hours she’s already worked, but they certainly could lower her salary going forth. It’d be miserably crappy to do, much like revoking her promotion, but there’s nothing legally preventing them from doing it.

      1. Allypopx*

        Yeah that’s what I told her. I said it a little quickly here because I figured the commetariat was familiar with the concept but you’re completely right, that’s an important thing to be clear on.

    3. Laika*

      Does you friend have a decent read on her work culture around things like this? My old employer was big on, uh, “belove-ing” their staff, and did their darnedest to keep them around. If they’re anything like my old employer, should the former staff want to come back, they would make space for the former staff without taking away the promotion of your friend, by way of a different role or reshuffling the structure a bit.

      1. valentine*

        they would make space for the former staff without taking away the promotion of your friend, by way of a different role or reshuffling the structure a bit.
        She should expect this, but start job-searching and be wary of anything that is or even feels like a demotion, like sharing the role and doing part of her former duties or being peers while Beloved cherry-picks projects and relegates your friend to assisting her.

  133. How big of a favor is too big?*

    I’m early in my career–25, a little more than 2 years with my current company. I’m an EA to the CEO.

    My sister desperately needs an internship to graduate college and can’t get one. I asked my boss to let me know if he hears of anyone in his network hiring PR-type interns (which was totally acceptable in our relationship), and he said “sure, but let me know if you need to call in a favor and she can have an internship here.”

    I’m deeply grateful, but I’m worried that this will look bad not only for her, but for me too. How seriously should I take that offer? I feel a really strong urge to help my sister however I can, and I don’t plan on staying with this company too much longer, but I don’t want to damage the relationships I’ve worked hard to build. We don’t currently have the same last name as I’m married, but I started here with the same very uncommon last name. We’re also a medium sized family business (about 150 employees), so it would be hard to hide.

    Any thoughts/advise would be greatly appreciated!

    2. Anonforthis*

      Why do you think it will look bad? It’s very common to get internships, as well as jobs, through connections, so I don’t see anything wrong with you/your sister taking up the offer! Ideally, your sister will do well in her internship and hopefully not be one of those nightmare intern stories.

      1. How big of a favor is too big?*

        The CEO is usually one of those “everything must be earned” kind of people, so I was a little confused he offered in the first place. I guess I’m just worried that people will think I manipulated him into giving my sister a job? I guess I’m not really sure what I’m worried about. It’s a paid internship in a really hard industry to break into (books). I don’t know. I guess I’m just worried about that “nepotism” word but the CEO is the founder’s son, his brother is the CTO, etc so I probably have nothing to worry about.

        1. valentine*

          I wouldn’t do it. I would save this kind of favor for someone you know mainly via work, whose work you know well and is great and therefore a good risk.

          I doubt you know what kind of worker your sister is or can or will be, plus you’re naturally going to take her side, when you need to prioritize your employer/-ment.

          It makes sense for a founder to want to keep the business in the family. That’s not really relevant to yours.

        2. Bex*

          In that case, I would call in the favor. Assuming, of course, that you think your sister would do a great job since this absolutely will reflect on you. I would probably sit down with my sister first and make sure that she plans on working her ass off and understands that this is a big deal. And if the placement does happen, I would also be sure to coach her on office norms and things like that to set her up to be successful.

    3. Glomarization, Esq.*

      This is 100% how networking and connections work. Your sister is lucky to have someone who can help open doors for her!

    4. Anon for Layoffs*

      I interned at my dad’s company (so did my sister) when I finished undergrad. It wasn’t my industry but I at least learned how to handle myself in a real professional setting. It was fine!
      My only worry for you is – what is the reason she can’t get an internship? If it’s just that there aren’t many available in her field that’s one thing. But if it’s something else that makes her a less than ideal candidate, is that something you want to connect yourself to?

      1. How big of a favor is too big?*

        It seems to be that PR is a bit of an oversaturated field, we’re in a big city, and her best job experience is Wendy’s and Starbucks. She’s just starting out and finding herself in that need-experience-to-get-experience loop.

        1. Anon for Layoffs*

          I’d go for it then! It’s not like you’re getting her a VP position. It’s an internship that hopefully she will prove herself in and get a leg up in her career.

    5. CupcakeCounter*

      Completely normal. I had a shadow for a week because her dad and I worked together on a particular project for our company and the part I did was what she was going to school for. Same company offered summer jobs for the children of employees before posting the jobs outside. I bet if you ask around it happened for a few other people as well (although more likely with their kids).
      Your boss isn’t really hiring here – its just an internship so there is an out for everyone. Just drill into your sister’s head that this is a BIG FREAKING DEAL and she’d better do a kick-ass job or you will lord it over her head for the rest of her life (and possibly even haunt her after death).

  134. Janteloven*

    Another thing: Is there a good source for nice looking resume templates that I can use as a starting point to make mine look nicer? I have zero eye for design but I don’t want to use one whole-cloth from, say, Google docs, that people might recognize.

    1. bookartist*

      I think you can relax on this one. No one is going to care that your resume is formatted the same as someone else’s.

  135. Library Bug*

    I work at a public library, and I have a question/need to vent. I have been working in this field for the past 10 years, and I’ve always been used to having to work at least one weekend a month. I didn’t mind splitting my off days to Friday and Monday once a month.

    I started a new position over a year ago, and I didn’t know my schedule (and I can’t believe I didn’t ask for a schedule) before I started at my current place of work. I now work Monday, Wednesday, Thursday, Friday, and Sunday, and I have Tuesday and Saturday off. I know that many people don’t mind having split off days, because there is a chance to do errands and whatnot during the week. I don’t like having split days off. I prefer to have consecutive days off instead, so I can recharge my introvert batteries for the coming week.

    I will say that with this new position, I have weekly programming on Sundays that I implement, so it can be impossible schedule a vacation day on Sundays because I am the one who has to find coverage (and no one wants to work on a Sunday). I will also say that ours is the only department where all 4 staff members work every weekend (either a Saturday or a Sunday), every other department has figured out a rotation.

    Basically, I’m getting burned out. It’s a busy library with a lot of great customers to help and programming that is well attended. Again, I don’t feel like I have sufficient time to recharge when my days off are 4 days apart.

    I’ve brought this up to my supervisor once, and she suggested trying to schedule time off on a few Sundays a year, but I must find my own coverage for programming. This isn’t really working for me. I have a meeting with my supervisor this coming week, would it be a bad idea to bring up the issue again, but also bring some ideas to the table like a schedule rotation on weekends?

    TL;DR: I have split days off, and I’m getting burned out. Would it be worth it to bring up to my supervisor a second time if I bring suggestions to the table?

    1. fposte*

      If you bring suggestions to the table, yes. I will say that “find your own programming coverage” is pretty common in my experience.

      Could you make it work to have Monday and Tuesday off and work both Saturday and Sunday? I’d jump at that myself.

      1. Library Bug*

        That is a good suggestion. As of right now, I work on Monday nights, I have one program a month on Monday afternoons, and Monday is my supervisor’s day off. Who knows if she would be willing work with me about our schedule, but all I can do is ask.

  136. Anonforthis*

    Should I transition from a role in a mid-sized consulting firm to a small boutique consulting firm if it means I will get to do more of the things I want in my job? Has anyone made this transition?

    I have about 3.5 years of total work experience. After I graduated, I worked as an analyst on a 6 month contract with a small consulting firm before moving to my current role, which I have been in now for exactly 2 years. It’s been alright, but I’m ready to move on. I like being an analyst, but my current job doesn’t have much room for growth, and I’m still in the phase of my career where I want to continue learning new skills rather than getting specialized in my current methodology, which is not what I want to do long-term. I just spoke with the recruiter at the boutique firm and it seems like the role is more the type of work I want to do, but very different from what I do now. I’m still in the application process, and currently doing a trial assignment to get a feel for the work.

    What do you all think?

    1. The Man, Becky Lynch*

      Small firms have their advantages and disadvantages, this is a really personal kind of decision. You have to realize with less people between you and the top decision makers for the firm, you can either be in an awesome position to learn more, have more of a variety and so on. However they tend to come with mixed in additional duties in the end, which some love [me me me pick meeee] and others loath, they want a job description and a routine and stay out of their hair otherwise.

      If you find yourself without room to grow and you’re feeling restless, it’s always a good idea to dip your toes in the water and check out what the temperature feels like. The good news is you’re in a good spot, you have a job you don’t mind but now you get to go poking around and investigate the competition! So take advantage of that and sniff around, see what your gut tells you.

  137. AnonManager*

    Hi all,

    Could use your advice! One of my direct reports just asked me if she could skip the first half of a conference across the country from our HQ (so it involves plane tickets) that I had gotten budget/approval to send her to in order to attend a last minute engagement party that one of her friends is planning for a good friend of theirs. The date of the conference has been known for at least a year (it is our industry’s annual conference), and I advocated/built a business case in order to get her the approval/budget to go. I’m very surprised she would even make this request. I’m thinking of responding by letting her know that, while the decision is ultimately hers, since I had to build a business case for her to attend and the company has already paid for the registration fees/flights, deciding not to go could make it more difficult to build cases for future company travel/future company budget.

    Has anyone else encountered a similar situation and if so, how have you handled it? I’m wavering on how strongly to word my response – I feel like the right thing to do is to not outright demand she attend, but instead clearly spell out the impact this will have on her if she chooses to skip half part of it.

    1. That Girl From Quinn's House*

      I think that’s fair, but one thing I’d like to add is that there is *immense* pressure from the outside about supporting your friends and family through life milestones. She may be legitimately fearful that if she doesn’t attend, she will lose the friendship and be alienated from the friend group. There are a lot of Bridezillas out there, and if they’re the norm in her group, it is going to be hard for her to say no without being permanently shunned.

      I do think she should attend the conference, because anyone who has a big engagement party also will have a shower, a bachelor/bachelorette party, and a wedding weekend full of events, which give her ample time to support her friends, and work should come first. But I thought I’d illuminate the conflict points.

    2. It's me*

      I’ll preface by saying I’m a bride to be this year. If I had had an engagement party, I would definitely have accepted that a friend couldn’t attend due to a work conference planned well in advance of my party, but I digress. If I was your employee in question, I would not be skipping a work conference planned well in advance for an engagement party. Since she seems more inclined to skip part of the conference you made a case for her to attend, I wonder if her judgement is maybe not the best? I’d make it more clear that you expect her to attend the work conference and not the engagement party and don’t leave room for interpretation. If you try the gentler approach and explain the impact, I fear she might not take that too seriously and decide to go anyways.

    3. Glomarization, Esq.*

      I guess I don’t understand how a “last minute” party trumps a business trip that has been in the works for a year, where the registration and travel have already been paid for, and that you had to spend some of your own capital to arrange.

      Yes, people want work/life balance and lifelong friendships are important. But an engagement party is not the actual wedding, and paychecks are important, too.

      I’d tell her how very surprised you are that she made the request and that it is hard for you to understand why she would put you in the awkward position of having gone to bat to get funding for the conference, and then she tells you she wants to skip half of it. It’s “her choice” in that, yeah, you’re not the boss of her life and she will do what she wants to do, but choosing a last-minute party over this pre-planned conference will probably not look good in the eyes of her co-workers and supervisors.

      2. Lucette Kensack*

        AnonManager should also make sure that the employee understands the consequences that she’s going to experience (both those you choose, and those that happen naturally), like:

        – You won’t go to bat for her to attend another conference, because you don’t trust that it will be a good use of your time/money/capital.
        – You will question her professional judgment, and that will impact how you think of her in terms of advancement/project assignment/etc.
        – Colleagues who haven’t been able to attend conferences will be frustrated with her.

        etc.

    4. Red Reader the Adulting Fairy*

      Wha? Like, you expended your capital to get her approved, the plane tickets and presumably hotel and conference fee are already paid, and she wants to bag off to go to a last minute party? I’m kind of impressed that you didn’t laugh and assume she was joking up front, to be honest. That’s gumption.

      In addition to pointing out how badly she’s shooting herself in the foot here (and frankly, I’d mention that she’s shot her toes off even if she DOES decide to skip the party and attend, because this is super wildly out of touch with reasonable business norms) — is there anyone else on your team you could send instead, who would be able to attend the whole thing?

      1. My Mama Taught Me Manners*

        +1000
        Definitely send someone else, if there’s anyone else who could benefit from the conference.
        It would be a cold day in H_ll before I’d approve her for any professional development again. And it would figure largely in her next review.
        Even in a social context, you don’t back out of an accepted invitation because something else comes along that you’d rather do.

    5. Overeducated*

      I think your strategy sounds pretty reasonable. She will probably be mortified but not because you did anything wrong…just because if she asked she probably didn’t realize there might be any professional or future consequences, or even that this was something you did have to go to bat for rather than being an automatic approval.

      I’ve encountered the opposite, as someone who’s missed a family wedding when two out of state weddings were literally bookending my first week of work, and who’s had a (local) bridesmaid miss my (local) bachelorette party and rehearsal dinner and only show up for the wedding ceremony itself due to a national work conference. On both sides I think family and friends need to understand that other people can’t drop everything for wedding events sometimes. But I think it sounds like you’re trying very hard to keep judgment out of it and let her decide for herself what consequences to live with, and that’s the mature and not personally biased thing to do.

      1. Washi*

        And this isn’t even a wedding or a bachelorette party, it’s just an engagement party! I just got married last year and can’t imagine being even remotely upset at someone missing my engagement party. Or even my wedding, for that matter, if there were some other pre-planned thing happening.

        I agree with the strategy of laying out the consequences of her choice, and I wouldn’t worry about smoothing the awkwardness over – I think an ask like this is pretty unprofessional and if the party is that important to her, she’ll have to risk losing some capital with you.

    6. Ask a Manager* Post author

      One thing I’d add to the other good advice here: If you say that and she decides to go to the party anyway, are there other consequences she should know about? If it would, for example, significantly affect your perception of her or other opportunites you’re willing to offer her in the future, it might be worth spelling that out. I mean, a savvy person would hear what you’re saying and understand the implications of that, but if she’s pretty junior or not savvy, it might be fairest to let her know the full ramifications up-front. (Or, if those are the ramifications, it’s fair of you to just say no.)

    7. The Ginger Ginger*

      Is she the only one on your team who would benefit from this conference? Another consequence could be, “if you feel you can’t attend the whole thing, I’ll be sending Susan instead since she’ll be able to attend the entire time (ie not waste the company’s money) and will benefit equally from the opportunity. She can share her notes with you when she returns.”

      1. AnonManager*

        Thank you all for your thoughts on this – they really resonated with how I’m feeling.

        Totally agree that it would have been different if her sister all of a sudden planned her wedding for the date of the conference with no advance notice – that’s something you’d likely forever regret not attending and I’d be a bit more understanding of the situation she found herself in. But since this is a friend, and since this is an engagement party and not the actual wedding, that does make me feel like work should be the priority.

        I’m often not in the position to get big salary bumps for my people, but something I can and am happy to do is advocate for them to travel/be exposed to professional opportunities. This year, I advocated and got budget for everyone on my team in more senior roles to be able to attend the conference, so I’ve spent a good amount of capital on this myself. This employee is also interested in traveling to one of our remote offices later this year to lead some trainings we need to do, and up until this point there was no question in my mind of allowing her to go, but now I’m definitely feeling less open to this, which is really unfortunate.

        I also think this has a high likelihood of impacting how the team sees her. I think that if they learn that she’s skipping part of this conference to attend an engagement party, this will permanently impact the way they see her.

        I’m struggling with how to best convey this to her – so far, I’m thinking of saying something along the lines of “I also want to make sure you’ve thought about the potential way the team could view the decision to skip part of a work event you’ve committed to. This factor is harder to quantify since their reaction is an unknown, but I wanted to raise it to make sure you factored this into your thought process.”

        1. Psyche*

          Is there a reason you can’t tell her no? Why not just say that it’s very important she attend the conference and it really isn’t acceptable to skip half for the engagement party?

          1. Ask a Manager* Post author

            Yeah, I’m thinking that too. It’s possibly even more fair to her to just be up-front about it: “No, I’m sorry — I had to really work to get the budget and approval for this, and the company has already paid the costs on the assumption you’d be there. Not going would make it more difficult for me to build the case for future travel, including the trainings you want to lead at X later this year. Since you’ve committed to it, I do want you there for the whole thing.”

            I think that’s better, and more honest, than “Well … here are all the reasons I want you to say no to this … but I’m just going to hope that you do the right thing, and if you don’t, it’s going to be a problem.”

            1. AnonManager*

              yeah, that’s fair – I’ve been waffling on letting her make the decision but laying out the consequences or just saying no mainly because she’s quite senior on my team and generally I like to empower more senior people to make good decisions on their own/manage their own time. Until today, that’s never been an issue but since I do think she needs to be there and this is something she has already committed to doing, simply being straightforward with her about this could be the better path to take. Also, if i give her the option and she chooses not to go, I know it’ll be hard for me to see past that, so maybe that’s an indication that I should prevent that possibility from happening by saying no.

              1. Akcipitrokulo*

                I think that’s probably a good plan – and also use the language that’s been suggested elsewhere, but to explain to her why it’s a no, instead of advising her not to go.

                Minor caveat that if it turns out to be something like “… and our mutual friend has been told they aren’t going to live to see the wedding so we’re getting together now…” then it changes everything! but exceptional circumstances not applying? I don’t think it’s unreasonable.

                But either way is up to you.

              2. Anono-me*

                Actually, maybe the fact that you would see your employee differently if you explain the possibility consequences and she chooses the party over the conference IS a reason to do so. Maybe this is something about her judgment that you should know, before she makes an unwise decision that has a much larger impact.

                1. Anono-me*

                  But please make all of the consequences clear , including that it will make you and others question her judgment.

            2. Kathenus*

              Agree with this 100%. If there’s a right answer in your mind on this – that she goes to the conference – then just saying that’s what you need her to do is the best course of action. Setting it up as a choice for her, when she’ll be viewed negatively if she actually makes a choice other than what you want, isn’t really fair. Kudos to you for trying to think this out so thoroughly.

          2. Red Reader the Adulting Fairy*

            I think this is where I am, really. It’s been discussed here a bunch of times that companies take the risk that employees might leave or win the lottery or have a medical emergency or something that prevents them from fulfilling scheduled business travel, but deliberately wasting company funds like this is so wildly not in that same ballpark.

      2. Cheesesteak in Paradise*

        I agree with Ginger. “No” is a complete sentence especially after travel has been booked.

        Tell her no she attends the entire thing or Fergus goes in her place.

        Or just tell her no if you are willing to have her quit or be fired over it. It’s not unreasonable.

        1. valentine*

          Yes, you can just say no.

          (If you give her the option, though, don’t make it a secret test and don’t hold a grudge. She’s right to take you at your word.)

    8. NoLongerYoungButLotsWiser*

      As someone who is actually jugging an aging parent’s birthday party…. I think there are family things so important you can’t miss them, and things you can work around. Right now, at work, we have have a significant strategic llama herd crisis. As a result, a meeting has been called. I am flying directly from that business meeting ,to the hometown and I will make it at least a day before the party…. but had to reschedule my first 2 days of PTO and call in family favors to get help with the logistics of hosting said party…it’s been tough but do-able.

      I can say that it really reinforced my ownership of my llama herd, and my contribution is strong and recognized. If parent were on deathbed – I’d be going to the deathbed instead. But… those 2 days I’m missing of doing floral arrangements and decorating the hall? I was able to ask for help.

      It may be that she doesn’t know how to say no to family, and is such a people pleaser that she thinks it is easier to disappoint you, than family. But I knew that if I wanted to be promoted to owning more than just my one Llama herd, supporting my next two levels up by showing up at that meeting was critical.

      And yes, my work was wonderful when I “did” have a family member on deathbed, so I have come down on both sides of prioritizing – work over family, or family over work. But an engagement party? not the same thing at all.

  138. Keys to the Kingdom*

    Hey, commentariat. It’s me, from this post: https://www.askamanager.org/2019/03/open-thread-march-22-23-2019.html#comments and this update: https://www.askamanager.org/2019/04/open-thread-april-12-13-2019.html#comment-2428891.

    So, basically, today I got let go from my job. I was told I didn’t pass my six month probationary period. Boss’ reasoning was that I wasn’t meeting the criteria outside of my interactions with Contractor. Sadly, these same criteria were the ones that Boss never gave exact instructions on or metrics to understand what exactly he wanted, and I dropped the boulder, let alone the ball.

    All I can say is that I tried my hardest and that I’m disappointed in myself. I feel like I’ve let a lot of people down. I don’t know what my next steps are, as a job I interviewed for at the start of the month keep telling me they will get back to me, but it’s Easter now and so they’ll all be on vacation.

    I wish I had happier news for you guys, but this is the state of play. I’m going to hope I have enough money to break the lease on my apartment and figure out what I’ll do from there. I’m going to look for jobs, as well as some courses to getting a certificate to teach English in China, Japan or South Korea (a long time dream of mine). Everyone from friends to family have been super supportive, and all my now-former-colleagues were both shocked and saddened by the news.

    I guess it’s time to figure out next steps. Regardless of all that though, thanks for your help guys. I read AAM every day, and you guys have helped me approach a lot of tricky situations. Sadly, no amount of absorbing could prepare me for this.

    KTTK.

    2. Keys to the Kingdom*

      Additional comment to add that Contractor will be kept on, and hasn’t reached out whatsoever. It’s probably paranoia speaking, but part of me thinks there was a larger play involved. That’s neither here nor there, though.

    3. Bubbleon*

      I don’t think you should be disappointed in yourself. I hadn’t seen your previous posts, but it really sounds like that place was too much of a mess for you to have to deal with and I wouldn’t be sorry for a single day about not being there any longer. The company clearly didn’t have a solid plan on what the contractor’s role should have been, and if they did your boss was ignoring it completely. His comment about “we’re not 18 anymore, we can trust ourselves to take our work phones with us wherever we go” was ridiculous and made me want to smack him.

      I’m sorry for you that you were let go, but this place was trash from day 1 and didn’t deserve your time or effort. They set you up to fail and then made sure you did and you probably didn’t deserve 5% of the nonsense they put you through. Best of luck finding a job you enjoy with people who aren’t awful!

    4. Akcipitrokulo*

      So sorry to hear that – but you will be OK, and hope you send us a good update soon!

  139. Human Watering Pot*

    Today is my last day at my current role and I asked my supervisor for feedback. It was a wonderful session, with all good things that were delivered with kindness, but I was feeling emotional about my departure and ended up crying towards the end. It truly had nothing to do with the feedback itself, just that I am feeling bittersweet about moving on. One of her points of feedback (prior to my tears) was that I could work on not being open about my emotions, so that’s extra embarrassing. I am not an angry person, but I do tend to cry if I am too happy or too sad.

    I definitely agree that I could be better about it, especially since there was a situation awhile ago where I think my emotion hurt my credibility when I reported a hostile coworker who verbally threatened my job and swore at me. I don’t think I was believed since he is not outwardly emotional often. I have gotten over it, especially since I found something that I believe is better suited to me and I have wanted for a long time, but his constant bullying (verbally threatening my job, rolling his eyes whenever he sees me by myself, CCing my manager on everything except when he makes mistakes) took a bit of a toll on my last few weeks here. I have done my absolute best to rise above his pettiness, but it does sting a bit, and it was emotionally exhausting. I’m afraid I brought that emotion into my feedback session today. I don’t think there’s any way that my concerns about this other coworker could be taken seriously, since it was a my word against his thing, but if anyone has any suggestions, I would appreciate them. Right now, I am determined to stick to the high road and not say anything, as I have since my first reporting of him. I don’t want my lasting legacy to be that I left complaining about a coworker. I did well in my work here and established a good name, and I wouldn’t want to leave a bad taste in anyone’s mouth. I am concerned about how he will treat my coworkers when I leave, but hopefully they’ll be smart enough to recognize his aggression before I did.

    She reacted nicely to my tears today, but I am still embarrassed. Is there any way to save face before I leave at the end of the day? Is there a way to avoid this reputation in my next job? Does anyone have any tips for not crying in the workplace? It is so embarrassing!

    1. gmg22*

      Allison did a great post last fall about crying at work. The gist was that a whole lot of people do it for a whole lot of reasons, but we’ve been conditioned to pretend that no one does it because it’s not ‘professional’ (especially, of course, when the crier is a woman). My takeaway from her advice was, when this happens, to just take the time to get yourself together and then in the next conversation with whatever colleague or colleagues you were interacting with when it happened, just to be upfront about it and why it happened. Own your emotions so they don’t own you, is how I’d say it.

      But though your boss had positive feedback for you overall, it’s disappointing to hear that they didn’t take your situation with your bullying co-worker more seriously. And you have a right to be upset about that, even when you’re on your way out the door.

      1. Human Watering Pot*

        Thank you so much! I really appreciate your advice, I’ll have to find that article. This is my first position in an office setting, and I have been trying to figure out what here is normal and what is unique to this particular space. It’s been a challenge, but this blog and community have been immensely helpful.

        Thank you for your last thought as well. I know that I’m leaving with dignity, but I dread thinking about how this coworker has been talking about me to others and how that will continue once I am gone. I decided not to speak to anyone about it, and I’m not sure if that was detrimental or not, but I’ve received an overwhelming number of unsolicited offers from coworkers for references, so I’m guessing it actually worked out in my favor. I just wish it hadn’t happened at all.

  140. dorothy parker*

    Looking for some tips as a new manager. I’m somewhat newly managing a part-time member of our team. He’s still freshly out of college and so there has definitely been a learning curve in basic office behavior but this week, we had kind of weird interaction.

    When he was hired, my boss was also his manager then in the last couple months he was transitioned over to work entirely under me. Two things have come up recently: two weeks ago, he took just over a week off. Before he left, we touched base and he confirmed he’d run this by our boss previously so I trusted that there was no problem (aside from the standard, being down a team member) with him being OOO. However, when he was gone, my boss found out how long he was out and said she’d never approved that much time. She had missed an email from him with updated date. She had missed it and he had never followed up. I told her I would speak with him about when he’s back as a run through that he should definitely follow up on that kind of thing/rather than just sending an email (ideally she wouldn’t have missed it but kind of a dropped ball on both sides). Apparently my boss also sent him an email talking about the issue and forgot to cc me.

    Then, this week, I noticed that he was gone from his desk for a while. As an hourly worker, he’s totally welcome to take a lunch but his lunch isn’t counted towards his hours. And I don’t want to nickel and dime. I won’t give him a hard time for stepping away to pick up food but if he’s going to actually take some time to eat his lunch (which I encourage if he needs it), he needs to account for that in his time. I quickly pulled him aside and just checked in, keeping my tone light and acknowledging that it sounds like my boss hadn’t clarified that with him when he started (she confirmed she hadn’t). I tried to keep it as straightforward and casual as possible because I didn’t want to freak him out but I did want to ensure that he understood the expectation. Apparently while I was in a meeting later that day, he went to my boss really upset and offended that I had asserted he was taking lunch and not counting it towards his hours. My boss and I spoke about it later and she thought he just processed our conversation before he wanted to discuss it further. She also felt that he might feel a pile-on between the vacation time conversation and the lunchtime conversation but overall, I’m bothered by a few things:

    I’d think that it’d be fairly obvious that taking lunch doesn’t go towards hours worked. I’ve also repeatedly had to speak with him about arriving at his start time and he’ll get better for a few days then slip back to 10-20 minutes late.

    That he went to my boss to discuss it rather than coming back to talk with me directly. And that, in that conversation, he also commented that he always puts himself on a timer and is back at his desk (if he’s that invested in timeliness, why can’t he also be on-time).

    Anyway, I want to be positive and encouraging so he isn’t anxious but I also find it really frustrating that his response wasn’t to own the lateness and it’s still not appearing to be a priority and that he went to my boss with his upset rather than to me. Any advice would be appreciated!!

    1. Four lights*

      At this point I’m not sure I’d go for positive and encouraging so much as clarifying expectations. It sounds like he’s trying not to work, and to come in late and then pouting when he doesn’t get his way. Going to your boss may mean he’s trying to go over your head, or that he doesn’t respect that you’re his manager. I think you should sit down and go over the expectations for hours, being on time, lunch time and how to do vacations so you both are on the same page. Then if he tries something again you can point to that conversation.

    2. fposte*

      He sounds like he needs some training in how to be managed, and you need a little training in how to manage :-).

      First, it’s okay if he gets anxious. Whether it’s okay for him to go to your boss or not is between the two of you; the fact that she was okay with being used as a sounding board suggests that she might not be the most directive of people herself, but you really don’t want to make avoiding making him anxious your main goal. An employee shouldn’t be freaked out by being told that you actually need him to keep to stated lunch hours.

      Second, I’d let go his reaction at this point and consider the event a done deal. If he has an ongoing problem with accountability, it’ll come up again and you’ll have a chance to talk about it with a new example. If he doesn’t, then it’s not anything that needed belaboring.

      Third, if you haven’t, set up regular one on one meetings with him so that there’s regular conversation and assessment. It is soooo much better than just waiting until things happen and then deciding whether or not to correct/praise/respond.

      1. valentine*

        An employee shouldn’t be freaked out by being told that you actually need him to keep to stated lunch hours.
        This stood out for me. Maybe your manager coddles him and that’s why he goes to her. Get her onside with redirecting him to you so both of you can settle into your new reporting structure. Then, tell him you can’t do therapy. He shouldn’t be going to anyone with his upset because he should be able to read the manual and follow the most basic directions: timekeeping.

        Your manager didn’t drop a ball. He gets approval or he sticks to the approved leave.

        If he’s non-exempt, be sure you’re not violating labor laws around breaks. You’re happy to pay him to shop, but not to eat, and he’s the kind of person who will rules-lawyer you about it. (I hope you haven’t been paying him for the missed morning time!)

        If you don’t need him at, say, 8:00, can he just leave late the days he’s late? If you really need the person in his role to be on time and you can move his shift to 8:30, could he be on time or is he programmed to be up to 20 minutes late? I bet he will whine at being expected to stay a full shift in either scenario, especially if he has been pulling a no-lunch/leave early scheme. If you’re flexible where you can be, you’ll know you did all you could when you have to fire or transfer him.

  141. Teapot Librarian*

    So it looks like I have acquired a nemesis.
    This is someone who does not work in my institution but is a local academic at another university in my same subspecialty, teapot glazes.

    I am a member of professional organizations with this person and serve on state national teapot glaze committees with this person.

    This person criticizes my professional work on twitter. I disagree with their assessment. I do not respond on social media.

    This person leaves me off of group emails for committee work.

    At a recent meeting they have made snide remarks about my work and most recently made it clear that they do not welcome anything within a professional context from me. They have not spoken to me personally about any issues.

    How do I deal with this issue? Mostly I am trying not to gossip and criticize them when speaking with or in the presence of other professionals in our field.

    Other techniques. Right now ignoring their behavior and keeping my eyes on my own plate.

    1. gmg22*

      I think that you’re right to take the high road. People will increasingly notice that this bullying is going one way. From a practical perspective, do you have another colleague involved in your committee work who has your back and can make sure you’re looped in?

      As for next time a snide comment is made at a meeting, though, I’d challenge it head on. “Nemesis, I know you don’t agree with my take on teapot glaze drying processes, and I’m happy to discuss that in more depth with you. I think if we want to have that conversation, it should happen one-on-one rather than taking up the group’s time.” Still the high road, but making clear to everyone that you’re not going to be steamrolled.

      1. Teapot Librarian*

        Thank you. I did reach out to another committee member privately. I am hoping to be detached and of service to the committee without engaging one-on-one with this person. The phrase that keeps coming to mind “is this the hill I want to die on?”

    2. AnotherLibrarian*

      The real issue here is “This person leaves me off of group emails for committee work” and that you have to address with whomever is the chair of your committee. The rest of it, I would let go, but that is inhibiting your ability to serve your profession and that’s a problem.

      1. Teapot Librarian*

        What I did at the meeting was say, can we make sure everyone on the committee has my correct email. It seems that I had not received the information on the Teapot painting workshop that was being planned. Everyone sent me a test email with the group. Nemesis did not. Unfortunately Nemesis is the lead for the present project. I guess that I am fortunate that in 20 years, I have never experienced behavior like like this before.

  142. oldfashionedlovesong*

    What do you do when you feel terribly unmotivated and uninterested? I don’t know whether I’m feeling burnt out with the addition of some heavy family/personal issues the past few weeks, but I am a bit embarrassed to admit that this week I have done very little work at the office. I’ve shown up on time, answered every email that came in, attended the meetings I had to attend – but I spent probably 75% of my desk time Monday-Thursday browsing the internet. I have some medium to large projects coming due in a few weeks, and I made zero progress on them this week. Today has been a little better, I wore a nice outfit to work which sounds silly but sometimes that helps me feel more professional, and I’ve actually made progress on one project, but I’m a little ashamed/angry/guilty about how this week went. What do you folks do when you feel this way? (Or am I just a lazy little garden gnome and no one else does this?)

    1. Introvert girl*

      I have periods like this from time to time. Remember you’re a human being, not a machine. Today was not productive for me at all. It’s ok to have worse days. If you feel like this for more than a month, I would suggest talking to someone about is ( a friend or a therapist). When I’m feeling unmotivated I try to relax with a good book, ice-cream, take a long walk in the woods with my dog during the weekend or book something fun like a pottery class and than at work think about how the work I’m doing today will pay for Friday’s class. Podcasts during working hours help as well. I like listening to BBC radio 4 extra. But trying to think longterm if you’re happy with what you’re doing. Are you being challenged at work? What is in your power to change it?

    2. The Man, Becky Lynch*

      Its about how long this draws out for you. We all get these “bleh no thanks” procrastination days/weeks. *waves*

      But the key is how buried you’re getting and how much slack you’re giving. You have been keeping up to the dailies, so I think that’s key. You’re not just letting your emails pile up until the last hour and answering everything before you leave for the day or just ignoring them until you’re reminded 3 times by your colleagues.

      It’s a sign of depression which is often linked to burnout but that means it needs to go on for more than just a bummer week like this. That would also of course require you to seek some medical attention if you feel you’re slipping too far.

      With personal/family issues, this can cause situational depression. It happens with my mom. She needs anti-depressants only when a close loved one is ill. She needed them when my grandma was in the process of passing away and she needed them when my dad was battling cancer a few years ago. As soon as both things were cleared up [sadly with my grandma passing and thankfully with my dad’s clearance] she rebounded and was able to be removed from the meds! So that’s always a possibility. So if you’re feeling the need to seek help but think that it’s a “Once I admit to this and get medical attention, I will be stuck with this dependency on medication forever more”, that’s not necessarily true! Also perhaps it’s something that therapy could assist with as well.

      Slacking at work happens and it’s not abnormal. But if you’re usually readily engaged and motivated, it is a sign of your mind tugging at you saying “I’m tired, we’re tired, ef everything, play Candy Crush, everything can wait.”

      Is it nice weather where you are? If you can get fresh air and sunlight, that helps a lot. Mini-breaks and walks have helped my depression issues. Exercise works for some as well, it releases those happy chemicals that your brain is thirsty for! Making yourself dress up and put on that professional appearance really does help as well. When I’m slipping, I start getting a little sloppy. Then I force myself to do my hair and put on makeup and it lightens up my heavy heart that slows me down at times.

      You’re normal and you’re gonna get through this!

  143. Madame Secretary*

    My husband and I are almost empty nesters and we have always talked about moving south. I would love to hear how people managed to find jobs in another state, without the benefit of a relocation package. Did you move first and then find a job or vice versa? Or did you use a local address for your resume and cover letter? How do I convince employers that I’m ready to move?

    1. Pinky Pie*

      When I moved, I used google phone to have a local number and I rented a mailbox. I ended up having to move first and then get a job. I wouldn’t recommend that method for several reasons- getting a house for us, our daughters and our dogs was tight on the budget my husband had.

    2. Ariana Grande's Ponytail*

      This may not apply to you, but when I was planning to move from East Coast Grad School to Large Midwestern City where my boyfriend and some family lived, I wrote in the first section of my cover letter that I was “planning to move home” after graduation. This worked because I went to college in the Midwest, and it was close enough to the truth that once I got in for interviews it was easy to explain.

    3. oldfashionedlovesong*

      I have relocated for a job twice – once from CA to NJ, and three years later back to CA. Both times I found a job before moving, using my current address and phone number, and did not ask for or receive relocation assistance either time. When I took the job in NJ, I simply said that I was open to relocation anywhere in the country (true at that time in my life), and the second time, I said I was looking to relocate back to my home state (VERY true at that time in my life!) I don’t know if it’s due to my particular field which sees a lot of movement, or whether the state of the economy just makes relocation seem less of a hurdle than it used to be, but the fact that I was out of state seemed pretty much a non-factor both times. I am also single and in my 20s though, so it’s possible my seeming lack of ties to anywhere helped.

    4. Brownie*

      Found a job first while using my very not-local contact information. During the phone interview they asked if I was able to work here as it was not a remote-work position, then in the in person interview there were questions about if I liked the area and why I had applied someplace half the country away from where I was. During the whole process I kept reiterating that I wanted to move to the area and was actively planning to and therefore was looking for a job here and that seemed to really reassure them that I wasn’t relying on them for moving, but was planning on doing it anyways.

    5. Moved From NY to DC*

      I don’t even list my address on my resume.

      Name
      Phone Number
      Email Address

  144. Pinky Pie*

    A little over a year ago, I was let go from a job when I was in my probation period. They listed it twice, with different requirements each time. From what I can tell, if it was filled, the person had my same fate. This time, they’ve broken their procedure and looped in a third department.

    I wish the company luck- I’m making more now than I ever did there.

    1. Ariana Grande's Ponytail*

      A selection of my coworkers wear sweatpants on a regular basis. Sometimes with heeled boots, sometimes with sneakers. I work in a business casual office. ?????

    2. Laika*

      One of my former co-workers would regularly wear a really specific pair of acid-washed ripped jeans that left the entire front of his legs open from mid-thigh to calf, with a few raggedy strands holding it together. Not just, like, a few holes at the knees, but just… bare skin.

      It was an office building and he was in a front-face, customer service role.

    3. Red Reader the Adulting Fairy*

      I think I’ve mentioned this here before somewhere — at my previous organization, there was a woman in the next department over who, about once a month or so, would come in to work dressed in a white-with-blue-floral-print union suit, complete with waffle weave, ribbed wrist and ankle cuffs, and a drop seat button flap, that she always paired with powder blue heeled pumps. (She worked in purchasing, so regularly met with vendors and internal customers from other departments in the course of her job.)

        1. Red Reader the Adulting Fairy*

          It was definitely ….. something. Hah. I was always kind of amazed that nobody ever said anything to her about it, or at least nobody with enough authority to communicate “drop-seat union suit is not appropriate to wear to work” sufficiently.

    4. Middle School Teacher*

      A grade 2 teacher at my school once wore a blouse, which was nice by itself. Over that she wore a vest that can charitably be described as corset-inspired. She got called in for a chat on that one.

      A few of our younger staff like to get sort of dressy pants at lululemon and wear them to school.

      We once had a student teacher who often wore hoodies and and sweatpants with “JUICY” across the butt (while she was teaching kindergarten). When her mentor and the assistant principal talked to her, she said we were being unreasonable for expecting her to dress up and also we were racist (she was indigenous).

      Best: my former boss was always extremely well dressed, understated but very tasteful.

    5. Bubbleon*

      I once had a manager (who wasn’t with the company long) who was in her 40s, very fit, and very proud of it. She was also European at an American company so there was occasionally a cultural difference. She once wore nice pinstriped pants and a matching vest with a white crop top underneath. No sleeves, and the back of her vest didn’t cover her lower back if I remember correctly. I don’t think she understood why everyone else was staring even after someone spoke to her.

    6. Catsaber*

      Best: One of the directors in my IT department always looks fantastic – she’s definitely got her style and fit down and knows what works for her, and while it’s not my preferred style (classic preppy), she always looks fresh and confident.

      Worst: Had a coworker that would wear ratty pajama pants and a threadbare, stained sorority t-shirt with plastic flip-flops to work most days. We were part of an application support team, so when she did have client meetings, she’d wear better clothes, but most days it was the t-shirt + pjs. She really looked like she just rolled out of bed and into the car.

    8. SherBert*

      Someone who ultimately ended up being a direct report of mine (but I didn’t hire) wore what could best be described as a karate uniform for her interview. I never saw it again on her after that, so maybe it was her “interview suit.” I was kind of surprised they hired her as much as the panel bashed that outfit.

    9. CheeryO*

      I have a coworker who wears a plaid button-down shirt that has a giant blood stain on it a couple times per month. I can’t decide if he hasn’t noticed it or doesn’t care.

    10. The Man, Becky Lynch*

      Best thing was my boss’s “signature” suspenders. They made me smile and feel like I worked for a lumberjack.

      Worst thing is just smelly, old and unwashed t-shirts that some of the guys seemingly wore every single day.

      Lies. Worst was the days the shop got so hot they took off their shirts. Their bare old-man chests, I just cannot.

      I know one former coworker also who wore what resembled a grandmother’s wardrobe, really loud big prints and extra baggy sweaters. I was not a fan.

    11. yeine*

      once my boss wore a purple shirt with beige khakis. i messaged one of his other reports “looks like steve is a pbj&j sandwich.”

      the report started laughing, and when the boss said, “what?”

      the other report says “it looks like you’ve got your pb&j sandwich on.”

      the boss laughed, but he’s never worn that outfit again, sadly. pour one out for the pbj clothes.

    12. Anon for this*

      A colleague who regularly complains about her foot problems came in the other day wearing, I kid you not, seven-inch bright purple heels. I know exactly how tall they were because she told me.

      This is definitely not a part of a dress code at our university and in fact she’s the only professor I know who wears high heels on a regular basis. That was…something.

    13. Just us chickens*

      I worked with someone who’d regularly come in shiny leggings with shirts that didn’t cover the butt. Usually the tops were something worn by 20 something year olds at university.

      Her worst outfit, IMO, was the time she came in same shiny leggings, with a lacy see through top (she did have a sports bra underneath) with an open back. The top was also quite short, not quite crop top, but not a suitable length either. This was in an elementary school.

    14. LGC*

      I’ve seen some wild stuff! My personal favorite is the guy who often wears outfits based off of sports teams (like, he’ll come in wearing a teal shirt, orange vest, tie, and loafers, and white pants with a Miami Dolphins snap back).

      He actually coordinated with one of his friends for a bit. It was great.

      I’ve also seen some…less than appropriate wear. I posted about this last year (on the Black Friday open thread), but one guy came into work in a shirt that announced his love of cunnilingus. His direct supervisor did not notice until I told him about it.

      (I have no idea how you DON’T notice the slang term for a woman’s vagina written in gold script across a dude’s chest, but apparently it’s possible.)

    15. Enough*

      In the 80’s the head secretary came to work in a poodle style skirt and saddle shoes. A women in the accounting office came the the company’s 90th anniversary party in a yellow jump suit with cutouts. The receptionist wore a cocktail dress one day. This was an engineering firm and I wore suits (am female).

  146. FRC*

    I’m currently applying for a Master’s degree, and have been offered a Master’s position in a lab. I didn’t directly apply to that position; the supervisor there heard from a colleague that I was looking and reached out to me. I interviewed and yesterday he reached out to offer me a position.
    I don’t know what to do, or what the etiquette is. When I was applying for undergrad I applied to many schools and waited to see where I had been accepted to choose one, but there I had never interviewed directly with one person. It will be months before I find out if I’ve been accepted to any other program, and it feels rude to ask him to wait this long. I’m really torn about accepting the position too. The supervisor seems nice, and it’s a really good school (arguably the best in the country) in a great city. But it’s not what I’d planned to be doing (Genetics vs. Microbiology) and I’m worried that I’d never be able to get back into microbiology again if I accepted.
    What’s the etiquette around applying to grad school.

    1. fposte*

      The etiquette is that it’s fine to say “I’m still looking at other schools and won’t have a firm decision for a while–do you have a date by which you need to know if I’m coming?” When we hire assistants, we’ll usually need to know fairly soon, but we don’t take it at all personally if somebody ends up going to another school.

  147. Laika*

    Thoughts on adjusting to different work cultures?

    I’ve just wrapped up my first week at a new job working in Llama Dialect Interpretation at a small office of ~20 people. It’s a pretty big departure from my previous work experience up until this point – I was in the Public Llama Grooming sector before, a non-profit in my area that’s funded in a big part by the government. My new work is only tangentially government-funded and pretty niche, and is privately-run (the owner and CEO are siblings).

    I worked in different roles at my job with Llama Grooming, Inc., but the work culture there was one of everyone pitching in, “no bad questions”, upper management usually happy to field any question or lend a hand when needed, etc – they weren’t a flat organization, but culturally about as close as you could get.

    At this Dialect Interpretation office, though, there’s a very visible distinction between upper management and the Llama Translators (my role). I’m not sure who I’m “allowed” to ask questions, since a few times I’ve approached someone who I thought was the right person and they’ve rebuffed me with a “talk to Wakeen”, but then Wakeen will tell me to talk to someone else, and they’ll pass me along to someone *else* – but it’s such a small office, it seems really strange to me. Despite having scheduled times to meet, I’ve been left hanging by my trainer for periods of 30-45 minutes, and although I find something to occupy myself with, many of the other Translators seem rushed and pressed for time, and I feel a lot of pressure to look busy as well. I was also told in my interview that turnover among Translators isn’t very high in the office, but I’m one of several other trainees, and I’ve heard that several people have left the the role recently.

    Overall, I think I just need to wait it out – the people I’ll be working with directly seem great, and I seem to have a knack for translating llama bleats, but I’m feeling a bit flustered by the lack of organizational clarity, and the management seems weirdly unapproachable. Are any of these things big standout red flags, or does it sound like normal adjustment growing pains..?

    1. Human Watering Pot*

      Congratulations on your new role! I wonder if there’s a particular deadline that’s coming up that might be impacting your new organization, or if this is the normal pace of work? It sounds like a stressful situation to step into, but I think you’re right to not view it as a reflection of your llama bleating translation abilities. Is there a way to schedule a 1:1 with your supervisor to ask who you should turn to in order to ask top tier, mid tier, and lower tier questions to?

      1. Laika*

        Thank you! Unfortunately, I think the nature of the work means that it’s just their normal pace (eg. translating bleat bulletins for weekly distribution). This is good advice, though – it would definitely put my mind at ease. Plus in answering your reply, I’ve realized that I don’t actually know who my direct supervisor is, so that would be good to know as well, heh. (I’ve been training on myriad technical components with the Translations Director, but I don’t think he’s my actual supervisor…)

    2. The Ginger Ginger*

      I think you should ask your manager. Especially since you’re new to the role; it’s perfectly reasonable to have questions about that.

      “I’ve had a little bit of trouble finding out who to ask questions about X, Y, and Z. I assumed it would be Rob, but he sent me to Wakeen. Wakeen sent me to Leslie. I did find what I eventually needed, but can you help me get a clearer understanding of who I should reaching out to when I’m stuck?”

      1. Laika*

        Agreed! I think between your and Human Watering Pot’s comment, I’ve sussed the likely problem is that I don’t actually know who my manager/direct supervisor is (maybe there’s some nebulous cloud of them??). I’m also fine working independently if that’s the expectation, but having that clearly defined would help a ton.

    3. The Man, Becky Lynch*

      Ah this happens in small organizations at times. It’s not that the higher individuals don’t want to talk to you or see you per se but they seriously don’t know the answer to your question,so they send you elsewhere to who they /think/ may handle it or know who does. Which is why they send you to Wakeen who then does know that no, Shelly handles that.

      Find that one person who will point you the right direction and try not to take the redirection personally, unless it’s in a tone that gives you the feeling they’re really bothered. Sometimes your guess-er is off when you’re brand new and that may be the problem here! Everyone has been there so long and just know the grind, they forget that you’re new and need assistance

      This happens every time we hire someone, I have finally gotten a better handle on it so that they know to just ask me if they’re confused and I will either assist directly or send them to another person who actually handles it. I am the company directory so to speak but I’m also HR so I make it my business to take care of everyone.

      Every so often I still have newer hires that will pop up with one of those questions that only comes up so often or they just don’t bother to ask and just “Make due”. Like when I see people struggling to find something in the kitchen and I’m like “Anything in particular you’re looking for?” “Sponges :(” “AH ha, yeah under the sink.” Or if they’re using a sponge that’s at it’s end of life, I casually swoop in and go “Oh man, we’re cheap but we’re not so cheap we have to use sponges until the gnomes come by and steal them in the night. The new ones are down here if that happens.”

      1. Laika*

        Thanks, it’s reassuring to hear that it’s pretty normal. I’ve got quite a bit of work experience under my belt, but nearly all of it at the same organization, so I’m probably caught up in perfectly regular things that I’m used to doing differently! I’m very much a “you won’t know unless you ask”-person, which means getting redirected throws me off my stride a bit but won’t stop me from tracking down the right answer, heh.

  148. Dani*

    I am in a bit of a pickle in terms of a long-term employment contract. After working for a company for 2 years as an intern, they chose to hire me as a contractor for 2 years with the note that they would be trying to convert me to an actual employee sometime during these 2 year. I’m six months into that 2 year contract and things are shifting. Not only has a wonderful remote work opportunity fallen into my lap (have been working in a traditional office for 2.5 years and it’s not awesome for my mental health), but my husband is also really wanting to move in order to take advantage of amazing opportunities for his doctorate degree in a different state. I know there are no legal ramifications for breaking the contract, but what about my reputation? What would I say if I do have the end the contract, or should I put this contract commitment in front of all else? Heeeelp!

    1. Four lights*

      I don’t know anything special about this, especially the contract part. However, I think that moving to a different state for your husband’s job is something people understand, and is something that people would be less likely to hold against you than, ‘Eh I found something better.”

      1. Dani*

        Yes, the moving thing sort of spurred the consideration of a remote-work job because then if we were to move again (likely), I could keep the same job. I wasn’t sure if I should even say why if I do decide to leave, but if it would make a difference in their perception, I could include that when I give notice.

    2. That Girl From Quinn's House*

      If they can’t be bothered to hire you as a real employee, they can’t be upset when you leave for a job where you’re a real employee.

      1. Dani*

        Glad you said that because it validates the small wave of bitterness I felt in September when they informed me that instead of hiring me on full-time as was implied when I started the internship, they’re just making it a contract deal. I get that it wasn’t a sure thing, but still… I couldn’t help but feel the tiniest bit annoyed that they didn’t value my skills enough to convert me to full-time.

        1. Four lights*

          Oh! I was reading this wrong. I was reading it like you had an employment contract, no that you were a contractor…
          Definitely do whatever works for you and your family and don’t worry about the job. Life happens and plans change; that’s part of doing business.

  149. Anon for this*

    So my grandboss is a white guy with dark hair, and chose to wear a bow tie in his corporate headshot. Which means the thumbnail that comes with his all his emails, he looks like…..
    PEE
    WEE
    HERMAN!

    I can’t unsee this…..

  150. Introverted Manager*

    What’s the best way to tell a relatively junior female employee in a male-dominated industry to tone down her use of contouring?

    Background: one of our teapot engineers reports to one of my peers, and her boss and I report up to a different. She spends her whole day working with government clients at an agency responsible for acquiring chocolate teapots. She has been asked by the client to tone down her make-up and wear more appropriate clothing. That feedback came both times from the (female) chief of staff to me (because I am the most senior woman on the team that the chief of staff interacts with).

    The criticism was valid (I had noticed it, but said nothing because she doesn’t report to me), and I looped in her manager. I really want to help her because it’s already hard in a male-dominated industry. She’s fixed some (but not all) of the clothes, but still wears such heavy make-up with bad contouring that she looks like she did her make-up in the dark, or got color-matched foundation too soon after a tropical vacation. I’m not sure her (male) manager has the skills to verbalize what’s going on and the impression it’s causing, because he didn’t see anything wrong. In a few months, I’ll be taking the Director position, and she’ll be in my reporting chain (but not in my management chain). Can I give her guidance now, or do I have to hope everything goes okay until then? I would hate to see her lose credibility because of this.

    1. Triplestep*

      I don’t really understand how a client can ask someone to fix their make-up (clothing I get – it can be revealing or unsafe depending on the industry.)

      Regardless if you think her over-made-up look is hurting her, I would take the advice that Alison gave to a LW from this past week or last … ask her to coffee and talk about it casually. In that case, the LW wanted to coach a junior person (who was not a direct report) to learn to read the room with her humor. (It was not worded that way; I believe she called the young woman “sarcastic” but the point was she would go on and on with her awful humor and get under everyone’s skin.) Alison’s advice was that if you’re more senior and have a good rapport, you can pull this off in a casual setting (read: outside the office. Even the cafeteria would work.)

      I think if you just say pretty much what you have here – that you want to help since you’re both women in a male-dominated field – it will be taken the right way. But go look for that letter I mentioned. It says it better than I did!

    2. Semaj*

      I feel really weird about this, but maybe I’m in the minority. You’re the one who has firsthand knowledge of what she looks like, of course, but I can’t imagine telling a colleague or direct report to tone down her makeup unless it’s wild circus makeup.

      Her manager doesn’t see it as a problem, and I’m wondering if all of your male coworkers (you said this is a male dominated industry?) also don’t notice or don’t care. You mention this critique only comes from female coworkers, which kind of feels like you’re just criticizing her makeup application. The only way for her to get better at contouring is to do it regularly, and I think it’s her choice in how she chooses to present herself.

      Full disclosure, I love makeup. I don’t contour, but I’m sure that when I was getting the hang of certain techniques (like brow filler) I probably looked a little less than polished for a few weeks until I got the hang of it.

    3. Middle School Teacher*

      I guess, are we talking Mimi from the Drew Carey Show? Or Bianca del Rio? Or more like, I don’t know, Kylie Jenner?

      I think you should probably let it go. Is it worth the hurt feelings and awkwardness?

    4. Engineer Girl*

      It makes me sad that she’s being judged on her appearance and not her ability to do her job. But the reality is there. And it is customer facing.

      This calls for an honest and open discussion. Acknowledge that as a female she is being held to a higher (and therefore unfair) standard. Frame it as “this is holding you back” and “people take you less seriously when you wear heavy makeup”. I’d also note that it’s more true for junior female engineers than for senior ones.

      I would also note that standards are different for different clients and industries. You have government clients who are among the most conservative set of clients. The rules would be different for a start up.

      She will gain more freedom as she proves herself and develops a great reputation.

      That said, I’d also push back a bit with your chief of staff. Norms are changing and she may be holding to norms that were in place when she was younger.

      I’d also push back because your engineers manager sees nothing wrong. That’s fairly good evidence that the complaint is gender based and discriminatory.

      1. Engineer Girl*

        Also – I would look out for Queen Bee Syndrome on the part of the senior women engineers. Most women are great but there are a few that are petty and jealous of high performing women.

    5. Not Me*

      Considering her male boss didn’t notice anything wrong I don’t know how this is a “male dominated industry” issue. It sounds more like a “women dictating how other women should look” issue.

      I find it in very poor taste that the director even included other people outside of her manager. If the problem is that clear cut, why can’t a man have the conversation with her? If it’s not a subjective opinion and it’s clearly an issue, any manager, regardless of gender, should be able to have the conversation. When she realizes that multiple people have been discussing her clothing and make-up she’s going to be very embarrassed.

    6. The New Wanderer*

      It’s also possible that she’s just not seeing it in the regular office lighting like everyone else is. I know I get a shock sometimes if I catch my reflection in certain lighting (common for offices, less so for homes and private bathrooms). There’ve been a few times where the combination of gray roots showing more than I thought and my usual pallor made me look 20 yrs older in some lighting.

      Even if that’s not the case with her, I think the best strategy may be to play it off like it’s a function of the lighting she’s in at work. That way you’re not criticizing her technique or color choice, you’re saying it’s not coming across the way she might hope. Focus on the effect, not the intent. Bonus points if you can add something like, “It’s happened to me and what I had to do was de-emphasize my makeup/blush/whatever because it always looked so much heavier at work than at home.”

    7. Cheesesteak in Paradise*

      Not a hill I would die on. I am strongly against dress codes that primarily single out women, which most of them do.

      And this doesn’t sound inappropriate just maybe not to everyone’s taste. And fashions change – look at the turquoise eye shadow in 80s movies.

      Unless she is showing up like Gene Simmons in Kiss makeup, it’s none of her work’s business.

    8. The Man, Becky Lynch*

      Inappropriate clothing will always need to be addressed, as that’s a standard we have written policies for to point to and also safety standards at times. How does your handbook refer to unnatural looking makeup though? It’s probably not even on the radar since it’s a male dominated industry, if it’s really an issue, they need to update that manual immediately and let it be known instead of just chasing her down with nothing but a “we don’t like how you do your make up” lecture.

      I’m in a male dominated field too and I either don’t wear makeup or do it in a variety of different ways, rarely would it ever be a night-time look of course. Is she dressing up like she’s going to clubbing instead of going to a work place? That’s my sense reading your post! I think you can bring up the fact that your dress code and personal appearance guidelines are aimed at having a daytime look, so please leave the false eyelashes and club lighting makeup out of the office.

      I wouldn’t bring up the fact that this is possibly ruining her credibility or even HINT at the fact it leads to discrimination, that’s not up to you to bring up, it also starts screeching out the idea that “we know this isn’t fair and yet it happens” because in the workplace there’s no room to even suggest that it’s okay to discriminate against her because she’s doing “obviously” female things to her appearance.

      Coach her to your standards that are required of employees and benefit your business and clients. Do not step on that “As women, we need to let you know that this is going to limit you.” because that’s a box you do not open for anyone who isn’t your relative or best friend on the outside of your working structure!

      1. Engineer Girl*

        Unfortunately, women get less feedback on men. And I’ve seen stuff like this limit women. It’s not right nor is it fair. And yet we have to be pragmatic.

    9. Dr. Anonymous*

      If customers have been distracted by her makeup enough to comment on it, she deserves to know so she can decide if she wants to err towards Dress for Success and conform to the customer’s impression of business attire, or towards Screw the Patriarchy and control her own appearance. Yes, it’s an unfair standard. We should all get to choose how we navigate it.

  151. Whyyy*

    Does it become easier to get up earlier as you age? Why do so many people prefer setting up meetings at the buttcrack of dawn rather than any other normal hour? I can’t tell if I’m just a night person or if I’m still young enough that I haven’t switched over to preferring mornings (I’m 24). If no normal business hours would work I’d much prefer a 6pm meeting to a 7am one.

    1. Triplestep*

      In my experience, yes. First I had kids and they get you up early. But then I started commuting and the benefits of beating traffic got me out of bed.

      I don’t think you need to age to re-set your clock. I think that it happens naturally to a lot of people due to outside influences, but you can start to force yourself to go to bed earlier and get up earlier, and over time it will start to feel more natural. Sorry, I know that sounds like Mom Advice, but it’s true!

      1. JunieB*

        I’ve tried this so many times, for 3-6 months at a stretch. It turns out that I can’t fall asleep before 2 AM, no matter when I get up each morning. Some of us are just permanently wired for nights :)

    2. Bubbleon*

      I prefer having meetings as early as possible so that anyone who comes away from it with an action item has time to start taking action and check in throughout the day if needed. Late meetings mean no one has time to do anything that day, and in my industry people don’t tend to take “I’ll get started on this tomorrow” very well when a morning meeting the same day might have been an option.

      1. Whyyy*

        I guess that makes sense, but I end up experiencing the opposite of this. I’d prefer having meetings when I have work still on the brain and not where I have to wake up and remember internal prep conversations that I had the night before.

    3. Eleanor Shellstrop*

      I’m your age, and I work now in a “regular hours” office job after years of doing shift work that would start at any old time. I promise it does get easier once you’re used to it!
      I’ve found that, despite previously thinking I was a night owl, I actually am most productive in the mornings, which I never realized before because I never tried to do things in the morning, lol.
      How long have you been on your current schedule? Are you drinking enough coffee?

      1. Whyyy*

        It’s been two years but I’m mostly talking about the calls that get scheduled before standard hours – the standard hours are more reasonable. I think that’s why it’s harder to deal with the early mornings though, because it’s not the routine for me to get up that early. But I find that if I have to wake up before sunrise I have a specific brand of headache for the rest of the day…I can’t tell if that’s psychological or what but it’s happened my whole life.

        1. Eleanor Shellstrop*

          Ohhh I see what you mean. Yeah, that makes sense that it is harder to be “on” for calls that early in the morning.
          The headache thing sucks :(

    4. Laika*

      I think some people just operate on different biological timezones, unfortunately! My partner needs 8+ hours of sleep, but even if they’re in bed by 9PM, is a complete zombie blob if roused any time before 8AM. Whereas I’m quite functional on 5-6 hours of sleep, and as soon as my eyes are open, I’m AWAKE!!!, no matter what time it is. We’ve lived together for over three years, have worked regular/standard office hours for 8+ years each, and no amount of aging (early 30s both) has altered our sleep requirements.

    5. Ms Cappuccino*

      I am on my 40’s and I am like you so age is not everything. I’d rather have a meeting at 6pm even at 7pm than at 7am. There has been some improvement as I grew older though. For instance, on my day off I wake up at around 10 instead of noon (when I was your age).
      It may be due to which kind of habits/environment you have been accustomed in your early years. Is your family the same ? I come from a family where it was “normal” to go to bed at 1am, so obviously we weren’t up at the crack of dawn.
      I have improved it by going to bed 15mn earlier every evening and setting the alarm 15mn earlier every morning. It helps.

    6. blink14*

      Not in my experience (I’m in my early 30s). My natural sleep cycle means I am waking up for work (6:45ish) in the midst of my heaviest sleep. It is brutal getting up. I have traditional office hours, so no hope in adjusting to fit my sleep schedule.

      Some people will never adapt to conventional working hours, and I am one of them.

    7. JessicaTate*

      It’s absolutely not an age thing. I’m 40, and with seniority, I’ve shifted my schedule to be more like 10-6 than 9-5, because that works for me. Some people are morning people, and you might be working with them. Also I know some people who become very influenced by their children’s schedules. Early mornings are easier because they are already up early getting munchkins ready for school, etc. And evenings are hard because that’s “family time.” I’m sure that’s not across-the-board, but it’s a transition I’ve encountered with colleagues and friends. My childlessness has absolutely allowed me to maintain a schedule they could never do with kids.

      1. The New Wanderer*

        I agree from the other side. I’m naturally a night person and up until I had kids in my late 30s, I was going to bed at midnight and preferring to wake up after 9. Now I have to wake up at 7:30 or so, which to me is early and still doesn’t come naturally most of the time, but I don’t feel sick like I used to.

        You can theoretically retrain your body for an earlier waking schedule but it takes a long time to really entrain to the new schedule and you have to be super strict about your schedule and exposure to light. By comparison, recovering from jetlag is relatively quick but you are aided by the natural light/dark cycle and not artificially enforcing it for yourself. Also, it doesn’t work very well for people with delayed sleep phase disorder (ask me how I know).

    8. RainbowsAndKitties*

      I struggled with mornings hardcore until I had a sleep test done and learned that I had sleep apnea. If you have any other sleep related symptoms (i.e. excessive fatigue, napping often, falling asleep at odd times/places, etc) I would suggest seeing a doctor. It could be medical

    9. Earthwalker*

      At 60+, I hate crack of dawn meetings but I set up a good many. Team member A is an early riser and early leaver, so she can’t do meetings after 3:00. Team members B and C are several time zones to the east, so their day ends early too. Team members D and E are on several projects and their mornings are all sewn up and they have afternoon meetings too. Team members F and G insist on respecting a reasonable lunch hour (a custom that I agree with) but they’re in different time zones so there’s two more hours off-limits. The boss wants to discuss some things with the team but he only has a half hour at the crack of dawn and another half hour at another time that no one else can do. Crack of dawn is an awful time for a meeting, but sometimes it (and lunch time too, I confess) are the lesser evils.

    10. Asenath*

      It’s said that you need less sleep as you age, but I really thing there are innate differences among people. I’ve always been a morning person – I wake up early, hate sleeping in, want early morning meetings and flake out in the early evening. One of my sibs is the exact opposite. 7AM would be fine for me; 6 PM would have me yawning and wondering just how soon I can leave in order to get to bed at what I consider a decent hour. My regular working hours start at 8 AM, sometimes 7; I must attend (as I did last week) meetings that start at 5:00 PM and finish6:30 or 7 AM. That wipes me out. Give me an early morning meeting anytime.

    11. You mean there’s an eight AM, too?*

      No, if simply getting older were going to make me a morning person, I’m pretty sure it would have kicked in before I reached retirement age.

      I found that extremely early conference calls could often be attended from home before going to the office. Then, I would take my own sweet time getting there, since I had already *been* working, thank you very much. Or sometimes work from home the whole day, if I didn’t need any hard copy documents from the office.

  152. Quake Johnson*

    I’ve only ever had to let go of employees in my department a couple of times. I’m still kind of struggling with that conversation. I think once I get the ball rolling I do okay explaining the decision and finishing on a respectful note, but it’s the beginning of that conversation that I struggle with. I’d appreciate advice from other managers here. Do you just launch right into it with “You’re being let go”? Do you lead up to it somehow?

    I really want to be as kind as possible but kinda struggle with that because I know I’m about to cut off their income, which I think causes me to fumble whatever my opening line is going to be.

    1. Bubbleon*

      Do you have an HR rep involved in those conversations at all? When we let someone go it’s a very set process: manager gives 2-3 sentences of explanation, HR steps in with a final form and says you can go get your things, HR walks the person out and gives them a little more information about filing for unemployment, etc. It takes the weight off me as a manager to be able to say “as you know, we haven’t seen the improvement needed in this area and will now need to let you go” and be done with it instead of having to have a long drawn out lecture or explanation. As long as those intro sentences are honest and respectful I don’t think it really needs to be much longer than that for them to have to wallow in in front of us.

    2. Triplestep*

      I have never had to fire someone, but in life whenever I have to deliver bad news, I do it quickly but then keep talking to soften the initial message. I think the trick is not to pause. That way they hear you accurately, and then they hear you being as kind as possible and allowing them their dignity.

      This isn’t quite the same thing, but I have read that doctors are trained to use the words “dead” and “died” when talking to families about loved ones, and I can see why. You can’t control how people are going to hear words that mean the same thing, but softer. I have had this experience myself with someone trying to tell me about a death in the family; not only did it take me longer to comprehend, I was irritated once I did.

      One of my kids used to take a long time to tell me something she thought would make me mad or disappointed, and it only made me want to shriek “get to the point!”

    3. Not Me*

      Yep, launch right into it. Short and sweet. Hopefully you’ve already talked to them about the issue they’re being terminated over, so it should go something like this:
      “As you know, there have been issues with your performance. We haven’t seen sufficient improvement on those issues, at this point we are terminating your employment. Today is your last day, I can help you with any personal items you need to pack up.”

      If you are giving them a severance package or any kind of benefits information add:
      “There is severance and benefits information here for you to take with you today. I know this is a lot to hear and process so I’m not going to go through the details right now. Please read it carefully and if you have any questions there is contact information also included.”

      It really shouldn’t be more than a 5 minute conversation. Bring kleenex with you, think about their exit from the meeting office (do they need to walk past a bunch of people? Would it be kinder to have the person in the cubicle next to them away from their desk during this time? Etc). And of course, think about safety, is there any reason to think they might get loud or violent?

  153. Elspeth Mcgillicuddy*

    I met with the head of IT yesterday to see if I, as and end user, had any ideas about how the new version of our software could be better. I had a ton of ideas and we’re meeting again today to talk about them more! Sounds like a lot of them could end up being used!

    I’m especially excited because I my job is blue collar and this isn’t normally part of it at all.

    Does this go on my resume, and if so, how?

    1. Bubbleon*

      If it’s just these brainstorming meetings, I don’t think there’s anything that can be put on your resume as they’re pretty standard and don’t show much more than “I have ideas”. If it turns into a long term project where you’re actually working with IT on changes or are actually involved in the process of making a significant change I might include it then as a highlight in your current role, but I wouldn’t give you credit for just the idea if you’re not heavily involved throughout design and testing.

    2. SherBert*

      I would use it as an accomplishment if it ends up that anything you said has a positive affect. Explain it, then how it impacted the company/division/office in a positive way. Any great outcomes are good to list.

    3. anon reponder*

      If this is something you end up being involved in I’d recommend looking up wording related to user centered design. If you end up being a tester, then research user acceptance tester terminology. I’m not sure how you’d put it on a resume, but if you are involved maybe list yourself as a consultant or analyst?

      By the way, I work in IT and having customers or end-user provide feedback on how to improve software is so helpful and appreciated.

  154. Llama Samples*

    I applied for a job as a llama trainer for llamas international last week. The recruiter at llamas international emailed me on the 10th saying she was interested in my background and would like to see examples of llama training I developed using a particular development software. I responded with my background information and also that I can provide samples of my work using a related development software because that is what I am currently using. I’m familiar with the development software that she recommended but in my current position I’m not using it. I also said that I could send the samples over by Monday. No response.

    I uploaded my samples onto a private sharing site and emailed the recruiter at llama international that I had sent her a private invite to view these samples. No response but I can see that she did spend about 15 minutes looking at my samples on Wednesday of this week.

    My question is should I reach out to the recruiter to inquire about where they are in the hiring process? Since llama training can be controversial, I really want to delete her access to my samples if I’m not going to move forward in the hiring process. But I also don’t want to delete them if llamas international is interested in me.

    1. Laika*

      I think, if they’ve only just looked at your samples this past Wednesday, it’s a bit early to prompt them about it. Since they need time to assess the samples you sent them, give it a little more time, imo – maybe follow up next Wednesday? It might seem like a long process on your end, since you’ve been communicating since the 10th, but from their side, they’ve only had since the 17th to review and consider the work you provided.

      1. Llama Samples*

        That’s true. The only thing – I don’t think the recruiter probably knows I can see when he viewed my samples. I’m not using a common sharing site because I’m not sharing a common file type. So I uploaded the samples on the 14th and emailed the recruiter that the invitation was sent and to please let me know if there was any issues accessing the samples or if an invite should be sent to anyone else.

        1. Laika*

          If that’s the case, you’ve got even more plausible reason to send a head’s up email that you’re planning to take down the samples, imo. I like RainbowsAndKitties’s script, too – you don’t really need to justify why you’re doing it, just give ’em the head’s up. The ball is pretty much in their court at this point. I hope they get in touch soon!

    2. Laika*

      I think, since you know they only reviewed the samples this past Wednesday, you should wait a little longer before contacting them. It probably seems like a long time, since you’ve been communicating since the 10th – but on their end, they’ve only had since the 17th to assess the samples you sent them.

      That said, if you are antsy about her access to the samples, and it’s known to be somewhat sensitive information, I think it would be reasonable to send a note on Monday. You could let them know you’ll be taking the samples down again on X date (with reasonable notice, of course – 48-72 hours?), and that they should contact you if they would need access for longer.

      1. Laika*

        Oops, sorry, just noticed I double posted here – I thought the site had eaten my first comment. Allison, feel free to delete. :)

    3. RainbowsAndKitties*

      I’m not sure what you mean by controversial, so I’m not sure if you could mention this in the e-mail. But maybe follow up with something like:

      “Hi LLama International person, I wanted to touch base and let you know that I am still very interested in blah blah blah blah. I also wanted to let you know that I am planning to (take down?) the work samples soon from the private sharing site (something like this). Please let me know if you are still in the hirring process and need my samples for continued evaluation (again, something to that effect).”

      1. Llama Samples*

        The industry I currently work in can cause strong feelings in the public. My samples deal with industry topics but the information covered is something that could be found online or through other sources. I didn’t realize samples would be asked for so in the future I’m going to try and build something generic to have on hand.

        I like your script! I am bothered by the fact that the recruiter hasn’t responded to any of my emails. Even just a thank you, I will review and pass on to the hiring manager or something generic have been nice.

  155. LCH*

    what question would you ask someone who is entry level or close to entry level for a professional position to get a sense of their organizational/tracking of tasks and boxes skills? “tell me about time you…..?”

    1. MsM*

      I think that might be better addressed by describing a hypothetical situation they’ll encounter in the role, and then asking them to walk you through how they’d prep for it.

    2. Triplestep*

      I would probably look at their resume for involvement in extra-curriculars/clubs and see if they say they were in charge of any events, etc. I would also look for jobs they might have held while in school and just point blank ask “how do you stay organized?” assuming they had assignments and things due when they also had work shifts to fill. If their answer does not involve writing things down or keeping some kind of digital calendar, then you’ve probably got your answer.

      My daughter is in her first post-college job and I know she went into it as someone who did not keep a calendar. She still does not and it costs her, sometimes actual money. (She recently had to pay a red-light camera ticket when she clearly was not in violation because she forgot to show up for her day in court.) I also had a recent college grad as a temp, and I had to teach her organizational skills. So this is all by way of saying that even if you find the right way to ask, there may be a lot of good candidates who will have to be taught how to stay organized.

    3. fposte*

      I agree with the “How do you stay organized?” We expand it a little to talk about the need to juggle a lot of different things so they know the context, and then we drill down–do they use Trello, paper lists, a calendar, sticky notes, what? What I’m looking for–which might not be what you’re looking for, but what the heck–is somebody who geeks out over this and excitedly tells me about their lists and color-coding. Enjoying the process of organization is a huge plus for me.

    4. The Man, Becky Lynch*

      The one I get every so often is “how do you go about prioritizing your day/tasks” or “what ways do you find are best for staying organized?” “how do you ensure you will stay on track for internal deadlines?” This gives them the opening to give more insight into their notes/checklists and so on.

  156. Mrs. Carmen Sandiego JD*

    A first-world problems question. Once a week, every week, someone brings a snack for everyone at work (people volunteer). The problem? 99% of the snacks are chocolate cake, sugar cookies, or similar. How do I stay healthy while not giving into the sugar? I bring an extra piece of fruit sometimes and the snacks are in an enclosed room but there’s always an email announcement :/

    1. Bubbleon*

      Bring fruit or veggies that you like and can snack on, pretend the snack room doesn’t exist. Create a rule that the “snacks in the kitchen” email goes to your deleted folder. There’s not a much better answer than willpower, sorry. Good luck!

    2. Toodie*

      I always tell myself that the people who made those goodies have cats that walk across their counters, and that they (the people, not the cats) sneezed into the batter. Not so tempting any more.

      1. Tris Prior*

        I do a variant of this – I assume that whoever that is with the disgusting wet cough (because there is ALWAYS at least one in our office at all times) coughed all over his/her hands and then touched every last bit of communal food.

    3. NoLongerYoungButLotsWiser*

      It doesn’t always work, but mantra #1: “If it is free, it is not for me” and #2 (think of Jim Carey in “liar liar” ) – “I’ve had better.” Frequently they look great but are “store bought” treats (so not “worth it” for the amount of calories), or home made but unknown quality of ingredients. The only time I take one is when it is someone who is a good baker, who lovingly made them, and then final mantra “the first 3 bites are the best.” (Take the three bites, set on a napkin, “save for later” and discretely put in the composting bin at a later time).
      Not being hungry also helps.

    4. Montresaur*

      I’ve found a combination of fruit (especially apples, oranges, or bananas) and some kind of nut butter really helps with intense sugar cravings. Of course YMMV depending on dietary preferences and needs. I’m a real sugar fiend, and pairing a healthier form of sugar with a fatty spread (I choose peanut butter because it reminds me of dessert) has saved me from diving face first into a bowl of ice cream more than once, haha!

    6. Jan Levinson*

      Ugh, I feel you! Just try to eat your healthy snack before approaching the area where the food is, so you’re not hungry for the sweets. That’s what I do, at least! I’m on a low FODMAPs diet and it’s SO hard when there’s always yummy snacks around my office that don’t adhere to my diet.

  157. MuddyBuddy*

    How responsible should I feel for getting my coworkers to and from our group’s (academic research lab) annual retreat? In the past few years I’ve been the one to drive multiple coworkers to these multi-hour’s drive away events because some of them don’t have cars, or don’t have cars that they trust for long distance travel.

    This year however, the retreat is being held in a city I’d like to get my engagement photos taken in (partners and even families come to these retreats, so my fiancé will be with me) and I’m planning on staying an extra night for the purpose. This might cause difficulties for the coworkers who usually ask me for transportation, any ideas? I would be so uncomfortable inviting them to stick around for my photo session and forcing them to accommodate themselves for another night but don’t want to leave them hanging! These retreats (unfathomably) tend to change up until the last minute so it’s pretty possible that there might not be space in other cars.

    1. L. S. Cooper*

      Assuming they’re adults, I’d just tell them– as early as possible. Don’t say anything about not wanting them to stick around for a day, because I’m sure you’d end up with at least one hanger-on which you sound uncomfortable with. I’d just tell them “Hey, I know I’ve driven you in the past, but I have some business to attend to in the city and won’t be able to drive you this year.”

    2. Bubbleon*

      You should feel 0% responsible unless your job is Coworker Chauffeur. They, as a group, can rent a car they trust for long distance travel or work it out some other way, but it’s their individual responsibility to get themselves to the event, not yours.

      Congrats on your engagement!

    3. Anon for Layoffs*

      Just tell them now – “I wanted to let you know that I won’t be able to drive you to the retreat this year, because I am planning a personal trip around it. I wanted to let you know as soon as possible so you can make alternate arrangements.”
      If your coworkers are reasonable they will understand and figure it out for themselves.

    4. Rick Tq*

      I wouldn’t go beyond the statement “I will not provide transportation to the retreat this year.” This is your decision and your riders don’t need to know why, just that they have to make other arrangements.

      If you give a reason you will likely get push back to continue to be their personal Uber driver…

  158. Ms Cappuccino*

    I am about to be transferred to another organisation through TUPE (Transfer of Undertaking and Protection of Employees). It is a bit scary as I am not sure they will keep all our terms and conditions intact (though they are legally obliged).

    Has anyone being tuped and was it a good/bad experience ?

    1. MissDisplaced*

      I’d never heard of TUPE, but I’m guessing it’s what happened at my former job.
      My company was a division of a BIGCompany. BIGCompany divested us and my company went public. When that happened, we had to fill out and sign that we accepted the terms of employment with the new entity. There weren’t any changes to jobs, pay or benefits, with the exception of the retirement plan, which was frozen/vested under BIGCompany. We could not be rehired by BIGCompany for 2 years if we accepted the terms.

      You should be fine.
      However, I add this word of caution. There WILL be CHANGES. It may not be to pay or benefits, but after about a year or so, you’ll likely begin to see changes within the company. It could be minor reorganizations, or it could be major things. You just never know.

    2. Ron McDon*

      I was TUPEd in 2016.

      It went through very smoothly, and my new employers have even kept some of the best bits from my old employer, like giving us a pay rise this year because my old employer is giving their current employees a raise.

      I think we received a document stating what the terms and conditions of our old employment were, and the new employers signed a statement on it that they undertook to keep our terms and conditions the same.

      It was all very smooth and I haven’t had any issues, of course YMMV!

      I think it tells you on the initial documentation who you should contact if you think the terms and conditions are not being kept to.

  159. Eleanor Shellstrop*

    I work at the front desk of a finance-related office and every day I am responsible for sending out an email to everyone with a list of who is out of office/sick/working remotely, etc, mainly secretaries and assistants. This is important for the executives because there’s a backup system so that if their assistant is out, there will be one or two more who can help them.
    I get this information from a calendar that the HR manager is supposed to update when staff inform him that they will be out, but lately it seems like he has not been updating the calendar, resulting in a lot of confusion when I send out the daily email.
    I think it is time for me to bring this up the HR manager because it’s making it difficult to do my job. He is *sort of* one of my supervisors, but not directly, and has been at the office for less than 6 months.
    Any advice on scripts for how to say this? I don’t want to sound overly confrontational, and I’m trying to build a good rapport with him. His predecessor made an effort to keep me in the loop on more things and give me more work, whereas I feel like he keeps me at arms length a bit, despite being polite and friendly.

    1. RainbowsAndKitties*

      Slightly unrelated: This seems redundant. Why does’t the HR person just send out the e-mail? Instead of updating the calendar and then you sending out the e-mail? lol

      Anyways, maybe frame it as trying to be helpful? “Hi so and so, Is it possible that you missed a couple people on the calendar yesterday? Jim said that Pam wasn’t in today but I didn’t see it on the calendar. Please let me know if there is any way that I can help with this process on my end. Thank you!”

      1. Eleanor Shellstrop*

        Totally legitimate question.
        I think it’s because it’s often a somewhat time-consuming thing to put together. A lot of other information goes on there, such as office reservations and conference room bookings, and that kind of stuff does go through me as I’m responsible for the full office calendar. Which is separate from the HR/absence calendar. And the HR manager alternates working from a few of our other locations in the area, whereas I am always in our location and am responsible for opening the office.
        I like the “Please let me know if there is any way that I can help” angle. That would fit the situation well, I’ll try to say something like this.

        1. valentine*

          If he wants to send the email himself, it can be separate from the stuff you don’t need him for. If he did update the calendar, why don’t people check it instead of having the absences also in an email?

          Tell him his predecessor used to give you tasks xyz. Maybe he doesn’t know, it slipped his mind, or he’s expecting you to say when you have time for more.

    2. it happens*

      Don’t even think of this as confrontational. Approach it as a process question, take a walk over to his office and say that you use the special calendar to send the weekly out-of-office mails. You’ve noticed some issues recently and maybe he didn’t know that you rely on this specific calendar or maybe there’s another process he’d prefer.
      It’s just a friendly, huh, this is different, we should chat thing.
      Good luck

      1. Eleanor Shellstrop*

        Makes sense. I think I automatically default to “oh crap, I have to confront this person” but you’re right, that doesn’t need to be a part of it at all. Thank you!

    3. legalchef*

      Just a note, name sure your calendar is automatically updating; we have a shared calendar at work (in outlook), and I’ve realized that it doesn’t always automatically update, so every now and then I need to refresh it.

    4. Ron McDon*

      I have to do this regularly :)

      I work in an educational setting, and when anyone is off for any reason it is supposed to be entered onto a particular calendar. When I then process the invoice for supply teachers, I can check on the calendar to make sure the invoice is correct. Often, the calendar has not been completed.

      I then send an email saying ‘we’ve had an invoice for this date but there’s nothing on the calendar, is the invoice correct?’

      The person who is supposed to track all the absences then usually replies saying ‘yes, sorry I hadn’t entered it in the calendar, i’ll go through it now’.

      Every now and again I’ll have to send an email to him stating there seem to be multiple items missing from the calendar and reminding him what the effects of that are (leave may not being recorded on employees records correctly, I cannot process invoices because I don’t know whether they are correct, we cannot see patterns of absence clearly etc). He takes it well, usually apologises for the oversight and goes back through the calendar filling all the absences in.

      It’s annoying that I have to do this, but I need him to do his bit so I can do my job, so I don’t worry about whether i’m over-stepping by asking him to fill in the blanks. If he wants me to stop hassling him he needs to be more pro-active at filling in the calendar!

  160. Batgirl*

    What’s going on with men’s formal work pants guys? Possibly this is just an issue in the UK but my poor fiance is having a devil of job finding a pair. All he wants is a pair of regular pants, made of cotton, that he can chuck in the washing machine. He’s usually a shopping ninja but he’s stuck.
    There seems to have been a trouser fashion revolution since his last pants-shop and the first problem was finding a regular fit. The skinny-cut half mast look has taken over 80pc of the market. Fiance is pretty tall and muscly so he looked like the Hulk in these things.

    We persevered and found a few vestiges of a more traditional cut. These are all polyester for some reason. He’s been giving them a game try but they are chafing him. He’s sensitive to synthetic fabrics and he’s also sensitive to dry clean chemicals so the shop assistants who are telling us ‘you’ll have to buy an expensive suit’ are not helping because those are all dry clean.
    I would usually abandon him to solve his own pants dilemmas but the lack of manufacturing logic is itching my brain. If you can make cotton chinos, why not cotton formal pants? Alas his workplace is too formal for chinos.

    1. Bubbleon*

      Have you tried shopping online? I know it’s not always going to be the best but you can find a niche shop for literally anything, and once you do I’d just buy 10 pairs of anything he likes to rotate through.

    2. Triplestep*

      Yes, if you can get LL. Bean delivered, my husband had a similar problem and Bean’s cuts/fabrics are very predictable. They go in the wash, and if you get them out of the dryer quickly, don’t wrinkle.

      1. Triplestep*

        Oh, I just read your last line about chinos – these may be too informal, but they do have many fabrics so it’s worth looking.

    3. MissDisplaced*

      Must be a UK thing. Men here in the US would have a fit, though those skinny cut styles do exist in the Young Men’s sections. Look for DOCKERS brand, if they have them there (Levi Strauss is the parent company). Several fit types, wash and wear, no iron and cotton blends. Easy-peasy and plain at a reasonable price point–dress up or down. They’re workday staples for men here. Haggar or Van Heusen are two other staple brands. Perhaps you could order from Amazon?

      When we were in London, my husband and I noticed UK men seem to love those really vintage-look floral or vintage print shirts (like James May favors). We don’t get it. LOL! Thankfully, that look never crossed the pond.

      1. Batgirl*

        It used to be a few pairs for very young men but it’s exploded. Yeah my fiance can’t pull off a pair of powder blue drainpipe pedal pushers teamed with a floral shirt, which is the prevailing look at the moment. On him it doesn’t look like a 60s resurgence. It looks like the terminator mugged Doris Day. His new job is too formal for that too. I think his colleagues dry clean (finance field).

        We much preferred shopping across the pond were it looked like more adults were catered for! In fact he’s been talking of ordering stuff over but that could be an expensive fitting mistake.

      2. Michelle*

        Second the Haggar and Van Heusen brands. Found them at the local Belk’s store and the are great for both of my son and my husband. If you can get take them out as soon as they are dry you usually don’t have to iron!

    4. noahwynn*

      Bonobos athletic fit works great for me, there’s enough room in the butt and thighs. They’re chinos are 98% cotton and their dress pants are 96% cotton. I just looked though though and they don’t ship to the UK, which means you’d have to use a freight forwarder, which can be a pain.

    5. Akcipitrokulo*

      Might sound a bit odd…. but have you considered looking at school uniform trousers? You can often get them up to 36” waist – quick google shows M&S do smart looking cotton ones (out of stock at moment unfortunately) but it might work?

    6. JessicaTate*

      It’s not just a UK thing! My Midwestern partner is in the same boat. Getting true dress slacks (not chinos, etc.) that aren’t slim cut is really hard. At Macy’s he found some in the relaxed cut, but they’re wool. So not irritating, but dry clean only. I don’t have any answers, but the local menswear store recently sent some promotion that said “The slim cut is here to stay!” Which made us sad, because the hulking our look isn’t what you want.

      1. Batgirl*

        Thank you Jessica because it’s so barmy I thought I was imagining it!

        I actually thought the introduction of slim fit might be us moving towards catering to a variety of body types. Silly me! Its just more of the same ‘be as young and as thin as is impossible’.

    7. Ron McDon*

      Do you have a Slaters men’s wear near you? I think they’re online too. I took my son there for his prom suit – they had racks and racks of trousers in all different colours, styles and leg lengths. My sons’s suit said dry clean only but I washed the trousers weekly in the washing machine for months, they were fine!

  161. Camellia*

    Saw this meme and couldn’t stop laughing, had to share:

    Men tend to choose high paying professions – like doctor, engineer, CEO, etc., while women naturally go towards lower paying careers – like female doctor, female engineer, and female CEO.

    2. buttrue???*

      I will be so glad when we get rid of the qualifiers and the need to point out some one is the first, second or only the third one.

  162. RainbowsAndKitties*

    Hello everyone!

    I just got hired in at a larger nonprofit in a role with a title that doesn’t really reflect what I am doing. At the beginning I was ecstatic to learn that the person that was retiring from the role that I am starting would be around for a while for me to learn from them. Well, it’s been a few weeks and I am kind of frustrated. Here is why:

    I am used to working crazy stressful jobs where I am busy from the minute I walk into the door until I leave. This job doesn’t have enough work to fill the days. I am bored out of my mind sometimes. What makes this difficult, is that the retiring employee is going to be here for 2 more months! And while this person is wonderful and sweet, I really don’t think I need their help for that much longer (as I’m learning and getting a grip on things very quickly). I’m irked because I want to start having talks with management about taking on other responsibilities and projects to fill my time, but I feel like this would be rude to the retiring employee. Please help me. I feel ungrateful for complaining about being bored on the job and for complaining about having a nice person guiding me on the job.

    Thank you for any feedback!

    1. SamSoo*

      Maybe give it a little more time. As painful as it may be, if you can wait out the two months until Retiree leaves, you might find you are busy enough when it’s all on you.
      In the meantime, can you use your time to learn more about the company???

      1. RainbowsAndKitties*

        Thank you!

        I could maybe learn more about what other people do. But I’m not sure how much of that management will support because it’s not really my job. I have been asking lots of questions in general and just kind of exploring and figuring things out in addition to the stuff that I’ve been given.

        1. valentine*

          Be upfront that you think you’ll be up to speed in x weeks and are ready for more projects. Don’t mention the other person unless your manager does.

    2. Not So NewReader*

      Why not tell the boss all this?

      “I want to take on more work because I have not filled up my work day yet. But I don’t want to step on Bob’s toes, either. What do you suggest, Boss?”

      Really bosses are supposed to dole out tasks. Let your boss figure this one out.

  163. AeroEngineer*

    A quick question about work history as I was too late last week.

    I have 1.25 years at my last company and 0.25 years at this current one. Things might be changing in the next week (my team might be falling apart in the next months) which would make me start applying for other opportunities at a different (major) company(which would definitely be an upwards movement in my CV).

    My question is, if the job I currently have is relevant to my career path, but only a few months/less than a year, would it look bad to keep it on my CV if the next position I take is a definite improvement for my career? I am guessing that I would keep it on my CV for now and just explain it when it comes up?

    1. Engineer Girl*

      Did you accomplish something during that time? Take classes, implement projects? Keep it. Especially if it’s relevant for career progression.

      I’d also keep it if there was a low overhead on start up. Some jobs are barely productive at the 3 month mark. Other jobs have clear deliverables at that point.

      1. AeroEngineer*

        This is exactly what I needed to hear, thank you! Definitely going to keep it on then, and am not going to hesitate in applying for other positions at this other company which would be a good fit.

        I have delivered things to clients already and made guidelines and have real accomplishments (looking back I can’t believe that it has only been 3 months). Might also explain why people seem to burnout and move to greener pastures within a year or two…..

  164. dragon_heart*

    I had a very weird technical exam for a remote freelance job I was applying for. The requirement was I use a framework that I had never heard of until after I applied (I heard of it in the first video interview) and the next day they wanted me to do the take home coding challenge. To be fair, they said they will pay me. Okay fine, maybe I can learn the basics of that framework?

    This is where it gets weird. It will be 8 hours of straight coding (they will time me)! No, I cannot do it on the weekend, I need to be doing it during their work hours (night shift in my part of the world). I already told the hiring manager that I have a full time job so I can’t sit through another 8 hours after I finish my work so I declined to do it. We never discussed the pay since it would not be possible for me to continue.

    Just when I thought I had seen it all…

    1. SamSoo*

      8 straight hours of ANYTHING sounds mind numbing, especially if you’ve already worked a full day at your actual job!

  165. Foila*

    This feels like kind of a silly question, but since I can’t seem to find a definitive answer I figured you all might be able to help:

    In job ads I’ve seen language like “Full time, non-exempt”. How confident can I be that these jobs pay under the federal minimum for exempt status (which I think is in the ~$22k range)? I’m in Colorado, if it matters.

    Ugh, why doesn’t everyone just post a pay range?!?

    1. BlueWolf*

      Non-exempt status doesn’t necessarily mean that they pay under the minimum, although I’m not sure what pay is like in Colorado. Anyone can pretty much be non-exempt, but in order to be exempt you have to make at least the minimum. I’m non-exempt and I make over twice that (but I’m also in DC which has pretty high wages, particularly in my industry).

    2. fposte*

      Agreeing with Blue Wolf. “Non-exempt” doesn’t mean under $22k; don’t rule out a posting you like simply because of that.

    3. KR*

      Agree with everyone. I’m non exempt and I make almost twice that. I know non exempt co-workers who make close to three times that. Some jobs are at nature hourly and some are salary they’re just you up-front

    4. Nicki Name*

      I’ve been at a company where some non-exempt people were making $80k+. They were non-exempt because they were doing dangerous blue-collar work. All you should read into “non-exempt” is that if you have to work overtime, the job will pay you for it.

    5. Foila*

      Thanks all, you’ve set my mind at ease!

      And Nicki, one of these jobs would probably count as “dangerous blue-collar work”.

  166. Siege*

    Thank you to everyone who advised me on whether to contact the temp agency or not! I did call, and they called me back the same day saying they have positions open! Wish me luck!

    1. Shirazer*

      I didn’t see your previous post but (if it applies) temping is how I got started when we moved to a new area. It gave me a chance to learn the area and get the lay of the land.

  167. SherBert*

    My grand boss just lies! For no apparent reason! The other day he told my boss that another employee had just caught him as he was going out the door, when we know for a fact that he was sitting in his office and she came in and they closed the door and talked for an hour (in the middle of the day, so not as he was about to leave).
    One day he was supposed to go to another building of ours down the street for a big meeting. I watched him from my window as he walked down the street, didn’t even make it to the corner, came back in and said when he got there the room was full so he came back to join via video teleconference. I saw him!
    And he’s the grand boss so he can do whatever he likes, so it isn’t like I care or could do anything about it anyway. If he lies about stuff that doesn’t matter, what else is he lying about?!
    A couple years ago he said his wife was dying.. but she didn’t and she no longer is, but he never said she had a miraculous recovery. Now he has to have a minor heart procedure (stent) and is milking it for all it’s worth… he’s taking off two weeks afterward. Does he think none of us know anyone whose been through this?!

    1. MissDisplaced*

      Whaaaaa? Any particular reason for this behavior? Does he just want to retire or something?

      1. SherBert*

        I really don’t know. He’s always been like this I think (he’s been in the position for about 5 years) and we didn’t always notice I think because we didn’t compare notes. but now that some of us have started sharing, we are finding out that it is just about everything.
        From what we understand, his boss is even aware and just say “Well, that’s just him.” and roll their eyes. WTF?! You know he BS’s all day every day and don’t care?! It is really impacting morale since we all know you can’t trust anything he says.
        There is so much more to him, too… like how he likes to “beat his chest” if the right people are in the room but barely speaks if it’s just us. He’s pretty much a d!ck.

        1. MissDisplaced*

          Is he older? Like in his 60s or 70s? Because if he’s older, I would begin to wonder about dementia.
          I don’t think that excuses it, but it might explain a lot. Or perhaps he really is just a lazy jerk.
          And I really hate it that when MEN do this, it’s always just: “Well, that’s just him.” Grr! If that were us, or most women, we’d be fired.

  168. AnonForThis*

    I’m a regular commenter but need to go anonymous for this. I’m a year into a job that involves moving money around between departments. There’s a verrry pre-set flow to it that can’t really be deviated from. This means I regularly have to ask our Llama Bucks Director to move certain amounts of Llama Bucks into my account based on instructions I receive from the Llama in Chief. As a noob, I made a couple mistakes early on that clearly irritated Llama Bucks Director and resulted in some (I thought) snippy emails. But I apologized for my mistakes, even spoke in person at one point to say how much I appreciated being put right, and thought we had moved on. However, things have gotten worse.

    First, LBD wants me to submit all my Llama Bucks requests at the beginning of the fiscal year. But we sometimes receive new Llama Bucks from outside sources and I need to move them mid-year. On these occasions, I have explained to LBD why I am making this request, but each time LBD has been clearly annoyed and has specifically reminded me of her preference, even though I have no choice about whether to make the request and no one else who can move my Llama Bucks.

    Second, I am starting to have doubts that LBD even reads my emails correctly. She (mildly) reprimanded me the other day for trying to authorize a Llama Bucks transfer, which I in no way did. I had copied her on an email to someone else, in which I requested that *LBD* please approve a transfer. We also recently had an epic email thread (she frequently won’t answer her phone when I call, and requests need to be documented, so everything is on email) involving my being short of Bucks she had confirmed were in my account. She finally consented to move the additional Bucks, but made a huge point of telling me that there were so many email requests from me about this account she couldn’t even keep track of them, and she itemized the multiple transfers she had done at my request. She re-iterated her preference about keeping requests to the beginning of the fiscal year.

    Guys, I had told her from the start exactly why I was making a mid-year request and why it couldn’t be avoided. The multiple requests on this one transfer were made because she misinterpreted my (VERY CLEAR; I checked with a coworker) email on how much to move into the account in the first place, so I had to follow up with her to ask that she please move ALL the Bucks I had asked for. Then she confirmed the wrong total, so I had to write AGAIN to confirm that I had the right amount of Bucks. And after all that, a somewhat annoying snafu occurred the other day because it turns out I still did not have the amount of Bucks I’d asked her for.

    I could deal if it was just a matter of LBD being the kind of person who is not good at regulating her tone over email. But getting continually slapped on the wrist for mistakes I didn’t even make is too much. Her manager has received complaints about her tone before and it clearly hasn’t had any impact, so I have no hopes in that direction. What I am hoping to do is to meet with her in person and say, “Look, I understand your preference, but here are XYZ reasons it’s not workable all the time. How would you like to proceed in the future?”

    Anyone have thoughts about what else I can say or do?

    1. Four lights*

      Some people are never happy and won’t change their opinion of you. Make sure your manager and her manager think you’re doing things okay to CYA. Other than that try to be as polite and professional as possible.

    2. Not So NewReader*

      Ask your manager to discuss it with her manager.
      Explain you need x.
      Explain that you are being routinely ignored, chastised , etc. But rather than saying it that way, show the email responses you have been getting. Talk about the phone calls that are not returned.

      Be sure to explain to your boss that this is an x minute task to request this and in reality it is taking you y days to do it because of the lectures and refusals to answer you.

      After your initial conversation, it is fine to go back and say to your boss that there is still no improvement with Drama Llama Director. Simply say, “Boss, just letting you know that the problems persist with Jane. There is no change.”

  169. Tigger*

    So we got our Christmas bonuses yesterday. Mine was less then everybody cause I was only there for half the year and that was fine. The thing that really rubbed me the wrong way was that my coworker who retired in December , and didn’t train me at all like he was supposed to and really phoned it in the whole year (it’s estimated he cost the company at least $50,000 with his mistakes) got the full amount everyone in the company got. So much for “just because you managed not to get fired over the year doesn’t mean you deserve money”.

    1. Dee-Nice*

      That would feel like a slap in the face. Do you know anything about the bonus policy in your office? He may have been contracted to earn a certain amount no matter what, or as part of his retirement. I know in some fields a bonus is not necessarily a reflection of how an individual is doing, but of how well the business is doing overall. Either way, I hope you get the bonus you deserve next year!

      1. Tigger*

        It does feel like the slap in the face after I got a promotion but only in title. When I asked for a COL adjustment the CEO told me that he “doesn’t believe that you should get more money just because you didn’t get fired for a year”.

        Our bonuses are tided to the revenue of the business. There are 3 levels of bonus. My division smashed all type of records for yearly and monthly revenue and should have gotten the level 3, but because division B fell short of their goal our ceo felt it was only fair that Everyone get the level 1 bonus that division B received. Top it off that no one has gotten raises in 3 years….

        1. WellRed*

          Well, the CEOs comment is a waving red flag. Does he also feel you should be grateful for the job?

    2. The Man, Becky Lynch*

      Bonuses are tied to how long you worked there during the cycle they’re paying out for, so I cannot fault them for paying out the slacker sadly. That’s most likely only so they don’t break their structure, since it’s not based upon individual performances. Bonuses are different than wages in a lot of aspects.

      Raises though are permanent in most companies who aren’t tyrants who will reduce your wages unless you’re demoted or something of that factor. Your CEO still is horrible and doesn’t understand you need to give COL adjustments, it’s not a raise, it’s a COST.OF.LIVING.ADJUSTMENT you silly pigheaded CEO you.

      1. Tigger*

        I get that and that is totally fine. Just it rubbed me the wrong way cause of the CEO’s logic of giving a guy money who managed not to get fired ‍♀️ Oh well

  170. Anon Anon Anon*

    Friends, let’s talk bio’s. Let’s talk imposter syndrome. When I try to summarize my accomplishments, I always feel like I’m either exaggerating or selling myself short. You know that feeling?

    I’m really glad I learned about imposter syndrome. That’s a factor in this. I doubt the veracity of the statements I make about my own life. I feel like the World’s Smallest Horse, which is actually a hamster wearing a fake mane and tail and a saddle, and people find out after they’ve paid five bucks to go, “OK, that was interesting. Now for some cotton candy and a ferris wheel ride.”

    Fortunately, I’ve realized – anecdotally – that imposter syndrome seems to mostly affect people who are serious about their work and are not trying to be imposters. But you know those visual images that creep into your head? You think of actual imposters who have made the news in recent years and you imagine that’s you and you’re next. “Meet the AAM commenter who defrauded millions with her fraudulent posts about imposter syndrome!” And there’s a picture of me hanging my head and trying to look inconspicuous while cameras flash in my face.

    Sigh. How do you break through that and write a short bio that really gives yourself credit for the stuff you’ve done without making you sound more impressive than you actually are? How do you attain that middle ground where you feel confident that you’re portraying yourself fairly and accurately?

    1. TotesMaGoats*

      I have no problem talking about what I’ve done but I’m not great at putting it in words for people to read. Thankfully I have a great friend and former coworker who is a marketing whiz who wrote mine for me.

    2. Rick Tq*

      document, document, document. But, focus on what is important for the context and tailor your bio to suit.

      I can make some apparently crazy claims about my work experience but I can provide proof for it all. My brother’s working history is worse, as part of a prior job he met and spoke with the then Crown Prince (now Emperor) of Japan…

    3. Penguin*

      How are you at talking up others, like friends or coworkers? If you’re good at/eager to do that, try pretending you’re writing a bio for a friend who does awesome work, or think of what you’d tell a friend who was going to talk you up (or advocate on your behalf). Getting someone to help you role play that someone-else-describing-you approach can be super helpful if just imagining it isn’t “real” enough to get started.

  171. Nynaeve*

    Well, they announced the new library director today, and it’s the one person I didn’t want. (The one who isn’t pushing back against the proposed plan to put a gym and the university bookstore inside the library.)

    I feel better at least knowing (after two months of the search committee’s recommendation sitting on the provost’s desk). But it does feel a little bit like we’ve been sold out. The winner was markedly less qualified than the other candidates and the only reason I can come up with for her selection is that she’s more tractable.

    Oh well. So it goes…

      1. Nynaeve*

        I have no idea! But they seem very determined to do it. My guess is the thought process went, “I want a gym… a gym needs space… the library is a big building… hmmm, lots of books taking up space, though… but we have the internet now, so… put gym where books are and move books to basement? Genius! This is why they pay me the big bucks!”

    3. WellRed*

      As one who used to work in the U bookstore and field actual requests to borrow books, not buy them, I cringe on your behalf. What a terrible idea!

  172. origami duck*

    I screwed up at work and I’m completely miserable. I wanted to do so well here and now I can’t stop worrying that I’ve either destroyed any prospects I have here or I’m about to be fired.
    I’m an adult ESL teacher and in the fall I was hired by a big school board to join their supply list. I was given a short term assignment that kept getting extended every two weeks for five months. I was told it was OK to look for other jobs while I was supplying, and I did a two- week contact with another school board while someone else supplied for me. This month I was awarded the same assignment AND I was offered another contract, so I applied for a 4-week leave of absence. And it’s been declined, with a letter from the head of the department cc’d to the union, saying that I have to be available for all the time I committed to. Which is fair! I get it! But I wish I had known! Now I have to back out of the contract (which I haven’t signed yet, at least), cancel my supply (and she’s going to be so upset, she put time aside for me), and I look like a complete fool. Not to mention that once this assignment is done I have no idea if I’ll ever get another one.

    1. Just us chickens*

      I think if you work for a reasonable manager, they won’t think the worst of you. It’s natural to go look for full-time or at least longer contracts if you’re uncertain of your job situation. I work for a school board, and while we’d like our substitute teachers to only sub for our district, we can’t force them to do so, and sometimes, those teachers get better offers elsewhere and just leave. Given our current teacher shortage, it makes sense for the teachers to go where the jobs are.

      1. origami duck*

        Thanks chickens. I don’t know how reasonable my manager is but it really helps to know that this happens. Grateful for internet stranger validation!

    2. Anono-me*

      Would the person who was going to supply for you be a candidate for the position that you can not take? Can you see if everyone is agreeable to an introduction?

  173. dumblewald*

    How do you reconcile your feelings when you are simultaneously grateful to have a relatively stable, not-terrible, salaried job with benefits and good coworkers, but when you are not-infrequently extremely frustrated with management and lack of growth opportunities in your job?

    I’m currently in my first salaried job (have been in it two years), and am super grateful for how much easier my life has become compared to when I was a lowly-paid contractor. I’m generally happy with my social life and my job itself is okay. However, I have to report to some frustrating, incompetent people (won’t go into detail bc I’m sure I complain about it enough on this website as it is).

    Even worse than the frustraing people, which I’m sure is a constant in all jobs, is that I’m frustrated with the lack of growth potential in my current job. It’s one of those jobs where I feeling like the more I excel at it, the more I get penalized. Because I’m so good at reliably doing X, my managers want me to continue doing X, even though I don’t enjoy X and want to try other roles in the company. I even had one director condescendingly suggest to me that he didn’t think I had the skills to do the other job I wanted, even though I literally have a degree in it and did it in my previous job.

    I’m definitely job hunting, but I want to stop feeling frustrated in my current job all the time, since it’s better than not having a job.

    1. Laika*

      When you figure it out, let me know! I ended up leaving my last job for similar reasons – the benefits were great, the people were lovely, the work was stable and I didn’t hate it… but my work peers had terrible morale for the exact reasons you’ve listed here, and it’s darned infectious. :/

    2. Not So NewReader*

      Time to move on.

      Reread this and pretend a good friend is talking to you saying this. What would you tell your good friend?

      You have two problems here. Boredom and toxic bosses. You’ve been pigeon-holed and there is no reason to believe that will change any time soon.

      I stayed too long in a toxic job because I was so grateful for year round work. Can I just say we need a LITTLE bit more than gratitude to stay at a job. We need a fair wage. We need decent people and fair-minded bosses. We need a life outside of work. Gratitude will not carry us that far.
      I was given inputs that led me to believe I was not going anywhere in the company. That might have been real or it might have been a ploy to keep me in place. No way to know. I was ready to move on. Stupidly, I ignored that cue. Do not ignore this cue, it’s a big one.
      You can sit in a NICER job and STILL be grateful for having steady work. You do not need to remain here because this is not the last employer on earth. There are a couple more out there.

      The only piece you are missing here (and this will sound stupid) is that you need to promise yourself that you WILL find secure, steady work.
      See, what you are doing now is worry, worry , worry. Use the affirmation of, “I promise me, that I will find something else that is steady.” Say it over and over and over, until it no longer sounds stupid to you.

  174. Introvert girl*

    This is something personal I haven’t shared with anyone yet because it scares me even to ask myself. What do you do if, after a decade on the workforce, you’ve realised you really don’t belong anywhere in an office setting and you’re the happiest when working from home and you think you might actually be on the autism spectrum which would explain a lot but are afraid to find out for certain. I know this is stupid, but I’m really struggling with this one.

    1. PeachesnHerb*

      First, get a diagnosis.
      Second, start looking for work from home opportunities. Or explore them with your current job.
      Even if you can’t get a diagnosis, if your job would let you work from home at least a couple days a week it might help!

    2. Rainy days*

      I’m not on the spectrum, so take this as outsider advice–I’ve heard from so many people that when they get a diagnosis, they feel relieved because it helps them connect with others in the same situation and find the right resources. You may be afraid of the diagnosis now, but you could feel better after recieving it.

      1. Nicki Name*

        This! Every person I know of the spectrum speaks of their diagnosis as a huge relief.

        It’s not stupid to feel anxiety about the possibility that you’ve made it this far through life without knowing some key fact about your own self. If it helps, I know people who weren’t diagnosed until their 60s.

    3. The Man, Becky Lynch*

      Just chiming in to say that a diagnosis is a relief for those who struggle to understand the “why” factor of your negative feelings.

      Not on the spectrum myself but in terms of diagnosing being a relief, figuring out through therapy why I was so unhappy about certain things and finding where the roots of that fear and paranoia were coming from was such an amazing feeling. I haven’t been happier since that breakthrough!

      So please, take good care of yourself and get yourself diagnosed if possible or even if you’re not on the spectrum, it’s OKAY to not “fit in” any certain place. You have the ability to find remote work or jobs where it’s just you in a room all day long *waves from her hidey-hole*. I like the limited interaction I have most days, it fits my personality great. It’s wonderful finding your place in the world, be that in a busy loaded office or in your living room surrounded by cats and warm blankets with a computer to do all your work on.

    4. Not So NewReader*

      You don’t need a diagnosis to work from home. All you need is a preference that you would like to work from home.
      But. If there is more going on that you would like to work on then, yes, a diagnosis will be helpful. But just for the sole purpose of working from home, why not just go ahead and start looking for WFH jobs?

      1. Lilysparrow*

        This. They can be two entirely separate things. Even if you turn out to be on the spectrum, it might not have anything to do with wanting to work at home. One is not necessarily the cause of the other.

      2. Introvert girl*

        Thank you everyone! My company lets me for from home from time to time but I would prefer to work from home full time (worked on a contract for a year like this). At the office I just don’t belong anywhere, never have. Everyone likes me, I’m just not in any group, dito life. I don’t know why, but I’m afraid to get open before a therapist (it’s not like it would be the first time, I have gone before).

        1. valentine*

          Ask if it’s possible to work from home full-time, with occasional visits if you need to be there for meetings or what have you.

          Would a diagnosis help you? If you’re not ready or just don’t want that, you can still read about autism and change your life to work for the traits you share with autistics. It’s not a binary. You don’t need a diagnosis to take care of yourself and essentially create your own accommodations.

  175. Virginia Plain*

    I have another question that just popped into my head. I currently work at a school and I get July-August off. I just finished my MLIS so I am launching a job search, naturally. However, I’m not expecting to find a job quickly, and I really want to plan a vacation for two weeks in July. Would it be a bad idea to plan this vacation for July, while job searching? I’m expecting this job search to take a long time, as many library-related job searches go, but what if I *somehow* manage to get a job before July? I doubt it’s likely, but who knows.

    1. Emily S.*

      IMHO, It’s best to go ahead and book your travel. The prices will go up between now and then.

      Any reasonable potential employer will understand taking time off for vacation in the middle of summer!

    2. AnotherLibrarian*

      You can not put your life on hold while you look for work. So, I would make your plans and deal with the problem if it arises.

    3. Not So NewReader*

      I have worked on hiring library directors. This is pretty normal for people to have vacation time planned. As you said it’s a bit of a wait to get hired so people do make plans such as vacation or very important weddings and so on. As long as you only have one or two things to plan around, I don’t think anyone will mind.

  176. Phoenix Programmer*

    I have a weird issue where my co-workers keep calling me out for not doing something … but they are wrong and when I correct them they either don’t respond or get defensive. It’s happening with a few different co-workers but it started at the same time. I’m not sure what to make of it.

    Some examples:
    “Abby” sent an email titled 2nd request cc’ing my boss and the person asking it. Never sent me a first request. I replied all and said thanks for letting me know – but I checked and I actually never got the first request. I’m addressing now!

    I got no apology.

    “Devon” stated I never trained him on topic and cc’d his team. I replied I actually reviewed topic with you at Y meeting. He then responds “well you did but I was not listening because I did not think it pertained to me. It’s ok though because it is easy enough that I figured it out on my own.”

    Stand alone these can be dismissed easily as jerks being jerks but a sudden increase on this across various co-workers at the same time? Coincidence? It’s just odd.

    1. RainbowsAndKitties*

      This just suddenly happened out of nowhere? It honestly just sounds like they were being jerks…

    2. MissDisplaced*

      They’re being jerks, but I’d start to begin to wonder if this is endemic to the company culture or a department culture? Are they on a different team from you?

      The second example is pretty bad, as Devon admits he didn’t pay attention. His manager should have addressed his behavior on that.

    3. The Man, Becky Lynch*

      They’re obnoxious and childish, they are playing the jerk card hard with the CC’ing aspect added.

      There’s rarely ever a reason to be defensive when someone corrects you, that’s a jerk response 99% of the time. I wouldn’t put it on yourself to feel like you did anything. You should correct them when they say you didn’t do something, you clearly did or you didn’t get something therefore, of course you couldn’t handle it.

      They’re trying to make you look inept and get you trouble on some weird level. They are just brats.

    4. Not So NewReader*

      I had to learn to redefine what “winning” looks like.
      Sometimes it looks like silence, where there is no further conversation.
      Sometimes it looks like whiny, excuse laden, fumbling statements.
      VERY seldom does it look like an apology.

      Not kidding you, one boss I had would quickly change topic when it became evident that I was right. I marveled at how quickly she could come up with a new topic. Then after a bit I realized she was probably stressing out thinking, “oh god, I need a new topic, NOW.”

      My suggestion is to reframe your goal. Instead of aiming for an apology, aim for permanent changes. Bob keeps asking you stupid question X. Instead of waiting for Bob to apologize for repeating the question cut directly to, “Bob, why don’t we figure out how to get you on track here so you don’t have to keep asking me this.”

      A technique that I would consider with Abby and Devon is to ask, “What can we do differently to prevent this from happening again in the future?” Be sincere, don’t be snarky. I have found this question is so bothersome to some people that the question alone stops the problem from happening again.

    5. NewNameTemporarily*

      Also – be very very careful. I had this happen once, at a job, where I was in a lot of personal angst. (very ill family member).
      I was not doing a bad job, and I had previously been – and still was – a dependable team player. But all of a sudden, I was frozen out of lunch invites, called out for little things, and got the jerk treatment. I didn’t realize the ringleader was the EA, who apparently knew they were going to be laying off folks – and my name was on the list. But she, and then her buddies in the department, and my boss, all began being snarky, mean girl, junior high level things. (like your examples). I was bewildered. I am a major team player and people pleaser, and after 7 years of successfully working there – and even training the EA – I couldn’t put my finger on what was wrong.
      I was laid off within the month. I was blindsided. Maybe if I hadn’t had so much going on personally, (and if I’d been aware that my toxic job megacorp always laid off when they made new acquisitions…) I’d have had a clue.

  177. Jelly*

    It’s performance review time for me, and the way we do things is that the employee fills out a self evaluation, and then the manager fills out a similar evaluation, and they meet to discuss it.

    So, there’s this typical thing that plays out on my team, where my whole team is asked to do something, and I end up being the only one doing it. For example, if we are supposed to read or review something in preparation for a meeting, I will be the only one who prepares. Or very often, documents will be thrown our way and we will be asked for feedback and input….and I’m the only one who ever does it. This is not just in response to one particular topic or situation, but a general thing that happens over and over again. People in other departments have commented on it, letting me know that I’m the only one who responded to their requests for feedback, or sometimes just coming to me directly because “I know no one else will respond to me.”

    I’m not the most junior (nor the most senior) person on the team, and I certainly do not have the smallest workload, so it’s not anything like “I’m the only one with knowledge to do this” or “I’m the only one with time to do this.” My team members routinely spend their days on youtube and/or leave early.

    On the one hand, I don’t feel like what basically amounts to “doing what is asked of me” warrants any particular attention in a performance review, as IMO we all should be doing these things, and if I were my manager, I would hold it against my teammates in their reviews that they do NOT do them. On the other hand, I want to bring to my boss’s attention that I’m the one pulling the weight of the team in these ways, as it is my ideas that end up being used. I know I could specifically name ways I have contributed in these circumstances, but I feel like it isn’t recognized that I am ALWAYS the only one to chime in, to be prepared, etc.

    Can I diplomatically bring this up in my evaluation without it sounding like I am throwing my teammates under the bus? Because while I would love to do that, I doubt that is very professional, and I KNOW my manager would take that as I think she is not doing a good job managing them.

    1. RainbowsAndKitties*

      Don’t mention what your coworkers HAVEN’T been doing, only talk about what you HAVE been doing.

      Example: “Janet wanted feedback and ideas on XYZ. She liked my idea and ultimately decided to implement ABC because of my input”

      Also, unless your manager really IS terrible, she already knows that you are the one doing your job and your coworkers are slacking.

      1. Jelly*

        Maybe my manager is terrible, then…because this has been going on FOR YEARS and as far as I know, has never been addressed. In fact, my boss has purposefully obscured this, I think because it is just easier for her to present my work as the group’s work, and making the group look good, rather than addressing the problem.

        I have been doing the “I contributed in this way,” but I guess at the heart of it, what I want is credit for always doing ALL of the contributing. Maybe there’s just not a great way to say that.

        1. The New Wanderer*

          I think a bigger question might be, does your manager *reward* you for being the known go-to person? It’s one thing for her to protect herself by bundling all the work together as a team effort so she doesn’t have to do the hard part of managing, but if she’s not also recognizing your specific efforts through good raises or more opportunities, then getting her to pay lip service to your accomplishments might not be worth much. But it might be worth more than you’re getting right now!

          Is there any way to work in feedback from the people who are coming to you for answers? We have a process here where either managers or coworkers can request other coworkers to provide feedback for them, in some cases coworkers on the same team and in other cases people who are the internal customers.
          I think that’s your best bet for showcasing that you’re the go-to person beyond outlining all the cases where you did the work and came up with answers or ideas (which is also good – sometimes it helps mgmt. to see it all written out if they’ve been taking you for granted).

    2. BRR*

      I’m in a similar workplace and I cited something like reliability to cover this as well as my quick turnaround on emergency requests. I wouldn’t normally put this in a review because it doesn’t seem that special, but if my coworkers never bother to do the bare minimum I’m going to use it to make myself look better. I think of performance reviews as not being the place to hold back on how amazing I am.

      1. Not So NewReader*

        Yep, yep.
        OP, I would say something like “I frequently get feed back that I am the only one who responded to [requests, tasks, etc].”
        Here all you are doing is stating the bare bones facts. You are not saying that Sally, Joe and Bob are not doing their jobs. All you are saying is what is happening on your one square foot of the workplace.

        If the boss wants to make that statement into further conversation then she will.

  178. char*

    TL;DR: I could use a reality check. Is it reasonable for an employer to take away vacation days but make up for it by increasing the employee’s pay enough that the employee could take an equivalent amount of days off unpaid and still earn the same amount?

    Detailed version:
    Right now at the company where I work, salaried employees get 10 vacation days and 5 sick days. (I’m salaried.) Hourly employees only get 5 sick days, no vacation days. The company also allows effectively unlimited unpaid time off, and they’re genuinely fine with people taking as much unpaid time off as they want.

    My manager told me that our company is considering moving most of the salaried staff to hourly, and in the process increasing our pay to make up for the vacation time that we would no longer get. So instead of having paid vacation days, you could take the same amount of time off (or more) unpaid and still come away earning the same amount.

    I am very unhappy about this idea. I understand that, monetarily, it would be the same if (a) I get paid $X per year and also have 10 vacation days, or if (b) I get paid $Y/hr where Y is such that if I take 10 unpaid days off I will make $X for the year. But psychologically it’s very different. In the former case, I feel encouraged to take time off to recharge. In the latter case, taking time off feels bad because I know I’m missing out on pay that I could have earned. When I’ve been in the situation of not having PTO before, I felt like I had to weigh any time off against the lost pay. I always asked myself, “Is taking this day off really worth $XYZ to me?” – and usually I couldn’t manage to justify the cost to myself.

    Basically, if I don’t have vacation days, I will probably almost never take time off, and I’ll end up totally miserable. I would literally rather take a pay cut than get a raise but lose my vacation days.

    Am I being unreasonable about this?

    1. Four lights*

      I think it’s weird, for the reasons you said. Also, there would be issues with unpaid time from a cash flow perspective.

    2. gmg22*

      If they are legitimately OK with people taking off as much time as they want, which it sounds like they are, then I can see how this could work fine. But if it’s going to inadvertently send a message of “don’t take time off because you’ll miss out on extra pay,” then that is a potential concern. Did you share the specific nature of your worry about this with your manager? I’d think that would be useful, both for the company to know about/consider and for your manager to help you reframe your thinking if they do decide on this path. It doesn’t sound from what you say like their goal would be to have people taking no time off ever, because that will potentially cost them additional pay at lower productivity levels.

      I get it, though. At my first job we had to work holidays, and if you got assigned to a holiday shift, you could choose to receive either time and a half plus a later day off OR double time and a half. I always chose the time and a half plus a later day off, but I know some other people always chose the double time and a half. It’s hard to turn down money that’s on the table.

    3. BRR*

      You’re not being unreasonable. I think why it might feel weird is because it’s sort of like doing something that’s pretty crappy in the least crappy way. Most people could use more money and I would also have a hard time taking vacation days. Your company is just handling this weird and should provide vacation time. Their logic is incredibly poor on this (but at least they’re increasing pay).

    4. Emily S.*

      I think you’re being reasonable. This sounds like a completely crazy policy. It just doesn’t make sense to me.

    5. Rusty Shackelford*

      I know some people who would actually prefer this system, because they want the time off more than they want the money. So yes, I see why you personally don’t like it, but I don’t think it’s an awful idea in and of itself. Assuming, of course, that they actually let you take that unpaid time off.

      1. char*

        Yes, they actually do let you take the unpaid time off. Several people have taken month-long unpaid vacations and everyone’s been fine with it. So I guess I can see why some people I’ve talked to at work don’t seem to think this change is that big a deal…

    6. noahwynn*

      This sounds like a nightmare for recruiting new employees as well. PTO is a pretty standard benefit and 10 days seems pretty common in my experience. Like you, I understand that monetarily it will be the same for existing employees, but I know I would be less like to take unpaid time off, no matter what. Also, I wonder how many potential hires are going to just decline an offer without any PTO, I know I would.

      1. The New Wanderer*

        Right, how would you really know that unpaid PTO is going to be allowed? With a written vacation/sick/paid PTO policy at least you have a kind of guarantee that those days are available (not all places allow their use in practice but it’s a starting point).

        I can’t figure out what the company is getting out of this change. Some people will just work for the extra money and never take days off even when they should, with mixed results on productivity, others might exploit the system to the point where they have to put boundaries on it. And isn’t hourly a very different category than salaried, to the point where jobs can’t just be reclassified on a whim? Or is that just an exempt/non-exempt thing?

        1. The Man, Becky Lynch*

          My only idea of why they’d do this nonsensical change is to lessen their burden of keeping track of vacation.

          They’re probably mandated to give sick leave, that’s why they’re giving out the five days. If they’re in a state that requires you to roll over vacation time and pay it out at the end of employment, that can be an issue to some companies because they’re [lazy] resistant to how it effects their records and how the persons doing payroll handle things in general.

          I agree that it’s going to be hella hard to recruit anyone with this lack of written benefits plan. Like you say, nobody new knows it’s truly okay to take as much unpaid time off as you want, most companies do not operate that way after all!

          1. char*

            They absolutely only started to give sick leave because it was legally required. Hourly employees originally didn’t get sick time either. They only started offering sick time to hourly employees when they opened a second office in a place that mandates a minimum of 5 days sick time.

        2. char*

          Weirdly, I think part of the rationale for the change is to make things more “fair” or at least more consistent. It’s a relatively young organization, and the policies around PTO for salaried vs. hourly were put into place pretty early on. And when some of us were promoted from within they kind of started making up roles as they went along and deciding kind of haphazardly whether those roles should be hourly or salaried. But I think they’re realizing they wish they’d kept some of us as hourly in the first place. They’ve also been kind of inconsistent about it. So right now we’re in a weird position where most people at my level are salaried, but a few who have been more recently hired/promoted are hourly. And some of us who are salaried have roles that are barely different from a role that has always been considered hourly.

          And I honestly think part of it is that they’re looking at the policy and thinking, “Hey, it doesn’t seem fair that hourly employees get so much less PTO than salaried employees.” I just wish their answer to that was, “So let’s give hourly employees more PTO!” instead of the opposite. (They actually previously took sick days away from salaried employees to make it the same as what hourly employees get – salaried employees used to get 10 days of sick time…)

    7. Not So NewReader*

      Take all the time off you want. But we won’t pay you for it.

      They are tapping the weakness in human nature not to take unpaid time.
      I hope their insurance bill is paid up because people who never take vacation time can end up having health issues.

      It looks to me like they are striving to create a culture where vacation time seems encouraged on the superficial level but their true answer is that vacation time is frowned on.

      1. char*

        It’s so weird, because I genuinely don’t think this is their intention. It’s a very employee-focused company in a lot of ways, which is why their attitude towards PTO baffles me so much.

        It’s not so bad for me, because as much as I have trouble getting myself to take unpaid time off, I actually can afford to, to an extent. But it makes me sad to see the lower-level employees come in while sick because they already burned through their paltry amount of sick time for the year, or have to work extra hours to make up for the pay they lost when they took a few days off for a vacation.

    8. E*

      If they can legit move you to hourly, I’d be wondering if you were mis-categorized as salary and missing out on earned overtime pay that should have been paid too.

  179. yeine*

    out of all the 40ish employees of my company, there are only about 7 who have been there longer than me. one of them left last week and i was heartbroken even though i know it was time for her to move on and there was not as much growing she could do at this job. but her kindness, thoughtfulness, institutional knowledge, intelligence, willingness to help me out …. i really miss her.

    another coworker who was there even longer than me and that coworker just announced he’s leaving as well. suffice to day, i am ….. not as distressed. :D even though he’s a nice person, we were ideologically opposed on everything. i’d keep him if i could keep her, but…. this is wierdly taking the hurt out of her leaving a bit.

  180. HarvestKaleSlaw*

    Allison’s suggestion to have a “waiting for” email folder has changed my life. It is my favorite tip ever.

  181. Adlib*

    I had an interview yesterday and I came up with what I thought was a really good answer to a question. I currently work for a global firm, and I applied for a small, local firm. They asked me why and if I had concerns about doing that. I answered that it’s not the size of the company, but it’s the people in it that make the difference. Kinda proud of that one.

    This same firm’s HR rep called today to ask if I could fill out the rest (i.e. the salary history) of the application. I finally did after trying hard not to. After I did so and sent it back with my expected salary, she called to make sure we were on the same page. See, if you had just shared with me your pay range at the start, we wouldn’t be having this conversation at all. That means they’re likely not in the ballpark at all so I may as well kiss this goodbye. I even asked yesterday, and she said they do market research and then come with their best offer for salary. For someone who said they don’t play games, this sure feels like one.

    1. Adlib*

      I’m leaving my current job because my current boss, in a conversation with me today about 2 toxic directors we work with, basically told me we have to “appease terrorists” (his words!). At least he shouldn’t be surprised when I give my 2 weeks.

    2. Rusty Shackelford*

      “We do market research.”

      “Good. So do I. We shouldn’t be too far off, then.”

      1. Adlib*

        Exactly. Why be secretive up front like that? She said she had notes from our first call, and I do not remember even discussing salary at that point.

    3. The New Wanderer*

      If someone there actually used the phrase “we don’t play games” it absolutely means they play games. Or they don’t know how everyone else in the world interprets that phrase.

      They shouldn’t be asking salary history at all if their policy is to do market research on salaries. It suggests that they’ll offer you just enough over your salary history (ignoring your expected salary) to try to appeal to you.

      Sorry you have to deal with that, but your answer to their interview question was really good!

  182. Snark*

    So this is late and nobody will see this, but….I’m interviewing for the replacement of someone who is retiring. We just had our last interview. And, guys…

    Oh my god.

    Imagine, if you will, every cringey interview moment Alison has chronicled….crammed into one, horribly awful interview. The awkward pauses, the “oh god I can’t stop talking because I’m killing this interview because I’m talking because I’m killing this interview,” the answer unrelated to the question, the “did I get the job?” at the end, the “I don’t really care what programs I’d get, it doesn’t really matter to me,” the hyper-rapid talking….it was the worst interview I’ve ever seen or been a part of, and that’s saying a bit. I just feel terrible for the poor guy. We all did – just silently begging him, dude, oh my god, just stop talking!

    2. The Man, Becky Lynch*

      The good thing is you’re kind enough to take pity on the poor guy.

      I had the same situation a few times and I just want to crawl under the table and make it all stop for both of us.

      But now you wait and see when he shoots over that email to say “thanks for the great chat, when are you going to let me know my start date? trololol” Just to make sure he really keeps up the tugboat straight off the edge of the map.

    3. dumblewald*

      I’ve never given an interview *this* bad, but your story reminded me of an embarrassing time when I gave an interview that went pretty well, but as I was saying goodbye to the interviewer, I somehow lost my mind and said something like, “I look forward to working with you!” I wanted to smack myself as soon as I said it. I did not get the job. Fortunately, I got a job offer not long after that, but I still cringe whenever I think of it!

  183. Lynne879*

    I’ve been working at a Big Retail Store for almost 6 months now and this is the first time I’ve interacted with managers who micromanage, but won’t lift a finger to help you. If they see you struggling, instead of helping you or finding someone to help, they’ll just dictate to you that you aren’t working fast enough even though we’re doing the work of 3 people.

    I know it could be worse, but I need some advice on how to cope with it.

    1. Emily S.*

      OMG, I’m really sorry. This is why I hated my last retail job. There are good retail jobs out there, but also a ton of awful micro-managers and terrible managers in retail, and it stinks.

      I’m afraid your best option is probably to find a different job. Because this is (sadly) one of those times in which Alison would say, “Your boss sucks and isn’t going to change.”

      So sorry! Hope you can find a way through this.

    2. Not So NewReader*

      The correct answer is leave. No, it can’t get worse, this is the pits.

      However, if you want to stay, understand that this is pretty normal for Big Retail. They want to do as much as they can with as few people as possible. If you stop expecting sanity that will be helpful.

      Learn the bosses’ pet peeves and handle those matters first if possible.
      Learn where the deal breakers are. Typically this involves money or keys. Don’t mess up on those two things.
      Find ways to streamline what you handle. Assume the boss will make you do it a different way. Then you just move on and streamline something else. Keep bumping to new ideas.

      Beef up your resume and keep looking for a job. In the end, you will not win here. These managers have already decided that they will fire everyone who comes in, so assume at some point they will whip up a case about you. It’s not personal. It’s a way of life.

    3. Princesa Zelda*

      Honestly, do what they say when they’re looking, and keep your head down. You can’t win.
      In my many years of retail, I’ve had dozens of bosses like this and you just have to survive them. Ive been lucky enough to work for the past 3 years at a company where the assistant managers switched departments every 6 months, so if you’re in that’s boat, it gives you a timeline to look forward to at least! Good luck!

      Also, heavily dependent on the job and the manager, but I’ve had this work — if you’re struggling and see them come by aloneness and not busy, ask them for a second of their time. Not like “hey Jane come help” but like “Jane! Thank god! I’m having trouble lifting this, can you lend me a hand for a sec?” Some of them are just terrible people, but some of them have just been been promoted past their level of competence and are relieved to have something concrete to do. It’s VERY much a know-your-manager thing though and can backfire if they’re just a tyrant.

  184. Anonymous Person on the Web*

    Not sure if this fits here but we’ll see — is there a site with templates for writing letters of interest for joining a town committee? I’m considering doing such a thing but I have no idea how to write the letter they want… I’m guessing it’s similar to a cover letter in theory but are there general “this should be included” items?

    1. Not So NewReader*

      I do some local stuff.
      Why not just go to the meeting? In my area we want people who show up, so a letter would not come across the way you think it might. We’d wonder why you weren’t there at the meeting.

      If it’s a committee of a larger group, say a committee who advises the town board, then go to a town board meeting as well as the committee meeting. Get a feel for what is going on.

      The meeting can go many different ways so keep your ears open.

      It could be that in the course of the meeting, it is mentioned that they are looking for more committee members. You can raise you hand and say you would be interested in talking with them at their convenience as you are interested in joining.

      It could be that you figure out who the prez/leader is and approach that person once the meeting is closed and you ask if they need more committee members.

      It could be that they are having a one day event where they need extra hands. Volunteer to help at that event. This will give you a chance to talk to people at the event and it will give them a way to get to know you. This is going to sound too basic to work, but it can work. Suppose they are having a mailing campaign and they need help folding the letters to be mailed out. Volunteer to help fold letters. It’s in these simple things that one can find openings to move to larger things.

      Now, I live in a rural area. People don’t go to meetings because they KNOW they will get pulled into joining the group. We are very short-handed everywhere. That is how I got on one of the boards I am on. I showed up for two meetings and ended up sitting at the big table. It’s good to know your area.

      Unlike job hunting, you are not per se selling yourself as an employee. You are showing interests in THEIR concerns and activities. This means the things they are talking about might not be what you envisioned. If you still want to join, you will have to be able to roll with what they are doing. I give you an example: I had Big Issue X that concerned me. I have been on the board for 12 years and I am no closer to solving X than I was when I started. We are talking a multi-million dollar issue and progress is slow. So I rolled with it, I have done other things that (I hope) have assisted the overall effort of the board. I do everything I can to keep the discussion of X alive. For the most part, I find that joining these groups is very different from what I pictured, if you are prepared to roll with it, you will be fine.

      I will check tomorrow to see if you have any more questions.

      1. Bismuth*

        Wanted to add that this checks out for me. I had a friend on one of the smaller town boards of a not-so-small town, and it was always a problem having enough members there for a quorum. They were not happy when she left — they do tend to need people.

      2. Anonymous Person on the Web*

        You’ve misunderstood…

        The committee in question has a vacancy they are looking to fill. They are asking people to summit letters of interest to join the committee and I am asking how to write one because I don’t know the format.

        1. Not So NewReader*

          Ahh, okay, sorry.

          If you do have expertise that they would need be sure to mention that. You don’t have to go on and on, but if they are looking for help raising funds and you have done this work professionally, it would be good to mention that.
          If you have a persuasive reason for wanting to join then be sure to talk about that. “I have had dogs all my life, I am a big supporter of dog rescues.” This would show familiarity/long term commitment with their targeted mission. (yeah, not the best example, but I think you see the gist.)

          Although, I did not answer your question, I will still stand by the advice of showing up to meetings. People are more inclined to pick the person they know, rather than pick a stranger. This would make your strategy a two part strategy, not everything is hanging on how well you write your letter. You also have your in-person presence to help your candidacy along.
          Being even more strategic, I would try to attend a meeting before I wrote the letter. You will probably be able to gather tidbits of info and write more specifically to their concerns and goals. It’s hard to know what to write without seeing what they are doing in person. “I am gathering that you need some one who is willing to do bookkeeping work. In addition to the above things I have mentioned, I also have done books for other [businesses/organizations].” Here you have been able to ascertain what a need might be and you are offering to help them with that particular need.

          I’d try to keep it to a page or a page and half. Make each sentence informative. Give them several ways to contact you- phone numbers and email.

          If you know anyone on the committee or have a mutual friend who would connect you, then talking to that committee member might be a good investment of time. Be careful not to “sell yourself” to the committee member, as there might be ethics issues there. But do ask about the committee, their current projects, their current needs and ask what is going well for them and what is not go so well for them. This should help you get an idea of where you might fit in.

  185. Wannabe PMP*

    What’s the value of adding a PMP?

    My boss wants me to pursue a PMP certification. I’d like a written agreement for a future percentage-of-salary increase based on completion of PMP certification. Boss is open to some increase, but we don’t know what’s reasonable.

    If you are in the Project Management industry or work with/ hire project managers, do you have any thoughts about what I should ask for?

    1. bookartist*

      One person’s experience: I live in a high COL area and was given an extra 5K.year after getting my PMP. At that time I had been working with the company 2 years.

  186. whinetime*

    Call the waaaahmbulance because I have to whine for a second. I am SO left out at my job. I work on a small team at a large company. I am friendly to everyone and everyone is happy with my work but I am never invited to work outings, no one says goodbye sometimes leaving me at work all alone without me realizing and door wide open, no one ever asks about my weekend, trips, very sick family member I told them about, even though I always ask them about theirs and they are happy to talk about them. I have been there longer than most of them so its not about being newer and unknown.

    It makes me want to just act coldly to everyone. Do my job and go home but that is not my nature so its hard to do. How do I go into freeze mode???

    1. whinetime*

      Oh but I should add that I am the first to be asked when people need something. Anything. Stuff others in the office know too, they always come to me.

    2. Adlib*

      If it’s not in your nature, then don’t! It sounds like you want to be invited, but why don’t you organize something on your own with some people you have a good rapport with? It could be that once people can get to know you outside work, they might feel more open to talking with you personally at work if that is something that you want to happen.

      Regarding the open door and being left alone at the end of the day, maybe say something to whoever runs your department or your manager. Regardless of the personal feelings around it, that sounds like a security issue at the very least.

    3. Not So NewReader*

      You have been there longer than most of them?
      That might be it right there. Sometimes people can think that the more senior people would invite them to do something, if they wanted to hang out. They may think that because you haven’t initiated anything that you are not interested.

      When you say work outings, you mean they go hang out together, right? It’s not a group meeting or short work trip for an afternoon?

      I agree with others that the door problem should be addressed separately and immediately.

      But it does make me ask, why are they all leaving and you are there by yourself? Is quitting time the same time for everyone? Maybe they don’t invite you because they can see you are still there working. Barring inputs from you they might think that you “have to” stay there.

  187. New to Hiring*

    How can I tell if I’m being too picky when reviewing a candidates resume? I know I’m stickler for things like formatting, only including relevant information and job experience, etc. But how do I differentiate between these types of mistakes being important information to the hiring process vs me just being too picky?

    1. The Man, Becky Lynch*

      It depends on what you’re hiring for. I don’t use a formatting issue against someone unless they’re going to be handling correspondence or otherwise need to know formatting. Unless it’s just a jumble of mess, then it just shows they’re messy in my mind, so it’s an automatic “nope.”

      You will know if you’re too picky if you are reading 50 resumes for a position and none of them pass your mental tests. Then you really need to drill down and say “But why am I rejecting this person? Is it only because of very nitpicky things like a random capital in the middle of a sentence buried in their job accomplishments from three jobs ago?”

      Unless you’re hiring for editing positions, there will always be something you can pull apart and disregard an applicant for. By being picky you aren’t hurting them as much as you’re hurting yourself, you will be sorely disappointed in all applications and all new hires if you hold them up to outrageous standards! Give them a chance by at least phone screening them and seeing if they are better speaking than in written format.

    2. Ask a Manager* Post author

      You need to connect it to the must-haves for the role. Do you need someone with strong attention to detail in writing, who can present written materials in a concise, well formatted way, etc.? If so, you’re not being too picky. But if not, focus on what you actually need in the role.

    3. Akcipitrokulo*

      It’s worth bearing in mind that formatting may have been fine when it was first sent to agency/HR.

      1. Hello, I'd like to report my boss*

        THIS! Recruiters have butchered my meticulously formatted CVs into a total mess before now. Usually to ’emphasise’ (exaggerate) things they feel are relevant.

  188. Adhara the Anxious job searcher*

    To Anon and on,
    I’m sorry I never replied to you when you replied to my comment two/three weeks ago, re: expectations in job roles in toxic ex job vs interviews, but thank you.

    You helped dispel some of the anxiety, just by normalising it! so I’m going to get back into job searching with more vim and vigor. Thank you again!

  189. Calamity Family*

    In my last 10 years of job history, I’ve had to leave because of life or death family emergencies. One my son was born prematurely at 24 weeks and needed intense medical care and therapy. The second, my husband went in for a simple 3 hour surgery that ended up going wrong and he was hospitalized for 3 months. We have 4 children and I had to take care of them and our household in both instances. In both cases it was very close to my one year anniversary.

    I have photographic proof that these things actually happened. Will most employers understand that life happens and I am responsible.

    2. PinkPrincess*

      No decent employer is going to ask you for photographic proof. If you’re worried about interviewers asking you why you left those positions, I think it’s perfectly reasonable to say that you had family issues to take care of, but that you’re ready to jump back into the workforce.

    3. The Man, Becky Lynch*

      Decent employers aren’t going to want any kind of proof, they’re just going to want to know and go “Oh yeah, reasonable for why you left those so early.” So just be prepared to answer, don’t bring your documentation!

      And these are two jobs in the last ten years? It sounds like you worked a year, took a year [ish] off and then worked another year before having to quit and take another year off? So you have other jobs and longer jobs within that stretch?

      Or are you saying in ten years, you’ve only had two jobs, with short stints and then lengthy time off to take care of the family emergencies?

    4. Parenthetically*

      I’m not sure I understand — are you worried about gaps in employment?

      Any employer that held two serious life emergencies against you in hiring wouldn’t be someone I wanted to work with.

  190. PinkPrincess*

    I’m wondering what everyone thinks about LinkedIn. I’m in my 20s, and don’t have any social media accounts because of privacy and stress factors. However, I’ve come across a few job postings where a link to your LinkedIn is required. What do you all think? Is LinkedIn something that’s becoming required at this point? Do I just need to suck it up and make a profile?

    1. Colette*

      I haven’t seen LinkedIn required for many jobs (but am not currently looking).

      However … LinkedIn is a really good way to keep in touch with professional contacts (I.e. references, former coworkers, etc.) that you will otherwise lose track of. I log in every … couple of months, maybe? – and I can find former managers back to when I started my first post-university job (well before the site existed).

    2. The Man, Becky Lynch*

      I’ve had very little to do with Linkedin, we tried awhile back to post a job ad on there and it was no good. I never check someone’s Linkedin when they apply because it shows pictures and woah-nelly we don’t want to know what you look like until we see you at your in person interview [though I supposed I could look at them after the interview is set up and remove that stress factor].

      It’s been better as a job seeker and ads another layer of depth for your job pool in my experience. I also use it as a way to somewhat “keep in touch” with former colleagues that I’m not interested in connecting on other personal social media platforms with. So it’s kind of nice for that.

      But no, it’s not required and still pretty small in comparison to other platforms. I would only do it if you want to and not because you feel obligated to. If you find a lot of jobs you’re interested in request it, then I would go ahead and make one, it can be pretty bare bones, I can’t figure out any position off the top of my head to ever require such a thing but some companies require things “just because”, maybe their owners/stakeholders have stock in the dumb little platform, who knows.

    3. Alianora*

      I don’t have any active social media accounts other than LinkedIn (probably for similar reasons to you). I’ve found that LinkedIn is useful because it’s an account I can show people to prove that I’m a real person with a name and a job history.

      It’s not actual proof of anything, but for instance in my roommate search people are way more at ease meeting up if I say, “Let’s swap LinkedIn accounts” instead of, “No, I don’t have any social media.” Potential employers tend to like it better if something shows up in their Google search too. So far no one has required it, though. Definitely a long way off from being ubiquitous.

      The privacy issue doesn’t bug me as much on LinkedIn as it did when I was using Facebook, because I’m not putting a ton of personal info out there in the first place. I’m listed as an employee on my organization’s website, so if someone really tried they could find most the info that’s on my LinkedIn page through other means. I don’t feel obligated to comment on others’ posts or even check the account all that often.

      TL;DR Yes, I would recommend getting one even though it’s possible to get a job without it.

    4. Akcipitrokulo*

      I’ve found it useful. Remember that it isn’t so much a social media site as a professional networking site – and it’s fine to put up a profile which is basically an extended version of your CV, add some colleagues and then just link to it.

      If you see it as just a way of presenting yourself, and don’t get too involved in the threads, that should be fine.

    5. Anon Anon Anon*

      I think it really depends on your field, who you are, and what your goals are. I found LinkedIn to be a positive thing for a while. I was contacted by recruiters. It was a decent way to network.

      But I eventually left. For me, it became less useful and more of an annoyance and a privacy issue. I didn’t want all of my professional info out there. I didn’t want to keep in touch with some of the people in my network (coworkers from toxic ex-jobs). I wanted to make a career change and it seemed to be holding me back. I also was annoyed by the lack of control you have over certain things. Like getting endorsed for the wrong skills. People posting silly things and tagging you so that your whole network sees. Etc. It can be kind of a cesspool.

      However, a lot depends on who you’re connected to, what the culture of your field is like, and how the people you know are using it.

      Personally, I think the best advice is to be yourself as much as possible. So if you’re just not a social media person, I would skip it. I don’t think it’s necessary. And if you see a job posting that requires a link to it, contact them and ask if it’s ok to provide something else instead, like a personal website or portfolio. I bet a lot of them would be ok with that or would just waive the requirement.

    6. Lilysparrow*

      I don’t really think of LinkedIn as social media, and nobody I’m connected with uses it that way at all.

      It’s basically an online version of your resume, combined with a job board. I know some people use it for messaging, sharing articles, etc. But that’s just not common among my contacts.

      I’ve only received a handful of personal messages in all the years I’ve been on it, and those were either people I hadn’t seen in a long term saying “Hi, glad to reconnect” or very rarely a stranger who was obviously “shotgunning” messages in hopes of getting a job lead.

      It’s no more stressful than having an email address.

    7. MissDisplaced*

      If you’re job searching, LinkedIn is the one to go with. LinkedIn is not like other social media platforms in that it’s meant as a B2B platform and for professional networking. People need to request connections to you AND how they know you to see beyond your “public” profile.

      So if you join, just be sure to set your privacy accordingly and what you want in your public profile.

      I think LinkedIn does try to “Keep it Clean” in regard to trolls and posts as it’s supposed to be a professional business platform. In the last year or two, I’ve disengaged with Facebook and Twitter completely and focused on LinkedIn for this reason.

  191. olig*

    One of my coworkers just announced he got a new job.

    Pro: HE’S OUT OF HERE… HELL YEAH!!! that guy was NOT my favorite!

    Con: a bunch of people liked him, and I like them, so I have to pretend that I’m not going to celebrate for at least two weeks.

    1. The Man, Becky Lynch*

      I know this feeling! Share your joy with us and your fam/friends but it’s totally easy enough to be lowkey about it at work. I just do that faint smile and go “Yeah, he’ll be missed [by everyone who isn’t me] but it’s great he’s moving onto those greener pastures, it’s a good change for him!”

      When the person who left that I wasn’t a fan of and everyone else was attached to her, I just beepopped my way through all the “Oh this stinks, she was so awesome.” stuff. When inside I’m like “LOL she slacked so hard and was kind of a pain in the butt but to each their own, do do do do.”

  192. Mellow cello*

    I’m looking for some cover letter advice. The application process for the job I’m applying for involves addressing selection criteria, a lot of which includes info that I’d usually have my cover letter. I’m worried about just repeating the same information in both documents will look lazy and waste an opportunity. Any tips about changing the cover letter to complement the selection criteria? Thanks!

    1. Bismuth*

      Write what you want to write. Just get it out without overthinking it. Then go back and edit with an eye for adding in something else that would sell you for this position, but doesn’t hit exactly the same. But honestly, they’re skimming. Having the info in two places is a good thing. It tells me you’re writing on-point letters.

  193. Marlies*

    I applied for a post-undergrad job at a major university in February. I was flown out to the university, interviews were fantastic, and was informed that decisions would be released at the end of March because I was the first candidate to be interviewed.

    End of March rolls around, no update. I followed up and got a response that decisions would come out in mid-April since interviewing took longer than expected. When should I follow up again? The end of the month is starting to roll around and I need to get my post-graduation plans ironed out. Would sending another email on Monday, April 22nd be too soon, or should I wait until later in the week? This job is absolutely my first choice.

    1. The Man, Becky Lynch*

      You shouldn’t check back until after the end of April, since “mid-April” can easily be pushed off until the end of April. I would say May 6th would be when you can circle back.

    2. Alex*

      Unless you have to make a decision on another offer, I’d wait until early May. If you do have another offer or opportunity that needs a response, get in touch with them and let them know that you have other offers pending, but that they are your first choice.

  194. LT*

    I’m in kind of a complex situation and I need opinions and/or help navigating this.
    Towards the end of last month, I was given an offer for a job I had interviewed for back in February. I accepted the offer but held off on giving my 2 weeks’ notice because I had to wait for a pretty thorough background check to clear (they asked me to submit ALL my W-2’s! But to be fair I only have 8+ years’ work experience).
    I gave notice to my boss this week and today sent out my farewell emails. One of these emails was to a team in the parent company that owns my employer, with whom we collaborate extensively. The team lead there gave a pretty standard “we’ll miss you” response, but in addition had mentioned how they had been trying to carve out a path for me to be transferred there. I said how I thought it would’ve been nice if that had worked out, and in being agreeable to this, seemed to have triggered the lead to start a process of trying to “counter offer” what I got from the other employer. The nice thing about this parent company is that they are one of the largest in my industry and my geographical region. I otherwise like the benefits I receive here, and had only really been searching for another job because of my opinions on how my boss manages, and because of a tough situation I was put in back in December and January that left me dissatisfied with my job.
    I’m trying to manage relations with both my current and prospective employers such that I won’t burn any bridges, but I’m wondering about this counteroffer, because I just read Alison’s advice about not accepting counteroffers, but what about when the offer is not to stay in a current position with slight changes, but to transfer to another department?

    1. The Man, Becky Lynch*

      Since it’s a transfer or movement to their other operation, how long would it take is my question…this does happen when they throw you a “Oh pity, we were going to promote you…” bone only to then a year later and you’re still in that situation. So that’s a huge issue to consider. Do you know how fast they move on things like this and will it be fast enough for your liking?

      Honestly, in the end it’s better to move on cleanly. You are leaving on good terms and with notice, so you could say “perhaps next time I’m in the market for a career move, we can be back in touch about any openings at your location.” instead of them trying to rush through the transfer process? Them baiting you and then dragging your feet is a big issue that’s been known to happen.

      2. LT*

        Thanks for the quick replies! This lead had actually been vying for me to transfer there even before I announced my departure, but my boss and dept director were firmly against it. I realize if I take an offer to move to the parent company, and this specific team, I would be souring relationships with my boss and director because of the way things are currently playing out. Thanks also for the sample language I can use in response to the team lead’s offer.
        Leaving can be such messy business sometimes, and it takes a while to build experience in this. I was at my last job for 7 years and my current one for only 18 months, so I’m very new to navigating these decisions!

        1. The Man, Becky Lynch*

          Yeah since you’ve been stonewalled in transferring before, I would be even more careful about accepting any kind of offer from them unless they give you an immediate start date of sorts.

          Right now it doens’t matter if you sour your relationship with your outgoing bosses, you’ve got your hooks in another job after all. So I would keep in contact only with that parent company lead and make it known that this isn’t a “see you never”! But you really need to get out of that office cleanly and not mess around with waiting or burning the bridge with your new employer.

    2. MissDisplaced*

      Personally, I think this is a too little, too late on the part of your employer. And I doubt they’ll be able tp pull the new position/counteroffer together in time anyway.

      But it never hurts not to burn bridges and thank them for the other proposal. You can always say your decision has been made, but you might consider something in the future, etc.

  195. Ammemememra*

    In my retail job my manager (and only full time person) has left. One of my other coworkers is leaving in 2 weeks. And the company has told us that no new hires will be coming on until the new financial year (which is counted as 9 weeks from now). That leaves 2 perm part time staff and whatever cover we can get from our other location dot run a store that’s open 90 hours a week.

    At the same time a lot of head office decisions have me thinking that they want to close this location (especially as we get blamed for low sales when we aren’t getting stock). I work this job and a part time paid internship that combined cover food, rent, and some exta for savings. My internship alone doesn’t cover rent.

    The more I think about my retail job the more stressed and unhappy I get. I know I’m not happy here like I hoped I would be, but no one is 100% thrilled with retail 100% of the time right?

    I suppose the question is should I be job hunting? And if I am how do I look for something that will only last another 7 months until my internship ends and I can work full time.

    1. The Man, Becky Lynch*

      Look for another retail position! Most places are thrilled when they have someone come in that’s already used to working that part-time schedule. You have an easy way of explaining why you’re leaving your current store, tell them that you’re without management for the upcoming two plus months and you see impending doom for the store. Also retail is used to job hoppers, so it’s not going to throw up many flags for most hiring managers.

  196. DerivativePoster*

    Any tips on working for a contracting company, especially in government?

    In a couple weeks, I’m going to start working at a federal agency, but I’ll be an employee of a contracting company (like the employment situation described here: https://www.askamanager.org/2016/12/update-my-coworker-wont-stop-complaining-about-our-health-insurance-and-i-feel-horribly-guilty.html). I’ll be joining a group that includes both agency employees and contractor employees.

    Are there any sticky situations or potential faux pas I need to avoid? I realize government jobs can have unwritten political or bureaucratic rules, and I assume being in a different employment category might exacerbate that.

    Thanks for any insights!

  197. Ace in the Hole*

    Help! I just found out I have a (relatively) huge training/travel budget that “needs” to be spent by July 1st.

    Problem? I don’t know how to find training courses or events! Please throw recommendations at me for anything on the west coast related to safety, environmental management, hazmat, or solid waste! I’d appreciate rec’s for professional organizations/associations, training centers, classes or certifications to look for, literally anything.

    1. yeine*

      I don’t know if this is helpful, but I live in SF – our municipal waste is called https://www.recology.com/ and they have a lot of real cool stuff that I know about as a consumer. I wonder if you could contact them and see if there’s something to learn ther?

    2. Bismuth*

      Red Cross for safety training — there’s usually more than just CPR. Call your county emergency manager; they’ll probably have good suggestions.

  198. Anon this time*

    A little late, and hoping y’all are still scrolling this far down.
    Workplace turmoil. I’ve just been told we’re doing performance reviews. My last one was in December – new years eve to be exact, and it did not go well. Manager knew he was on the way out and pretty much bashed me and my other coworker.
    I’m currently on manager nine in less than four years. My department is generally self sufficient so we don’t need much looking after. We get shuffled a lot.
    Anyway, last year, with manager eight, was the first year we did written performance reviews and had to fill out a self evaluation form. I have never had to do this before. I worked on it for a couple of days and sent it in. I got told I did it wrong and to do it again. He wouldn’t tell what was wrong though. Just do it again. So I spent a few more days on it and sent it back. Got told it was still wrong but he didn’t have time for me to do it again. Review was scheduled for the next day. He got busy and pushed it back. THREE months later I get called into his office 30 minutes before the end of my shift to do the review. He basically said that he disagreed with everything I said in my review and that I was horrible to work with.
    Now, I will admit that I am not the bubbly, warm and fuzzy type of person. I am the wierdo introvert in the corner. I keep to myself mostly and get my work done. I have had a couple of personality clashes, but I am aware of my affect on people and have been working on it. (Hr has commented that I’ve improved) But that eval crushed me. To the point that I’ve pretty much given up trying to fit in at work.
    So – here’s where I need your assistance. I know I’m going to have to do another self evaluation and I don’t want to. I have no idea how to do it or what to put in it. The job I do is a lot of follow up type things – like tracking large orders as they progress through our system. I don’t do anything that’s measurable. I have no KPIs. So in terms of accomplishments – I don’t have any numbers to show. I still don’t know how I filled out last year’s evaluation wrong. Suggestions on how to approach this? It’s freaking me out.

    1. The Man, Becky Lynch*

      When someone says “This is wrong, redo it.” without anything else, instead of trying and failing again, be honest. Tell him “Then you need to show me how to do it because there are no instructions and I’m clearly failing to figure it out on my own.” [Or can you ask HR or whoever processes these reviews? Also tell HR that he’s treating you like this and pushing it back at you because you can’t fill it out to his magic standards that he’s wizard’ed up for you, this is seriously an issue that needs reporting, it’s not appropriate to just smash people verbally and expect them to change without any clear instructions.]

      The good thing is that it sounds like the Workers within the department are fine it’s a company issue with hiring inept and inequipt managers that come and go so rapidly. So thankfully this one too will leave or get fired [hopefully fired, I hate him just by hearing this post from you, I actually kind of want to fight him, he thinks he can bully you and I’m a bully too, bring it on, Fergus.]

      Don’t fear this person, be professional and don’t just say “Ef you, Fergus. Let’s go fight in the parking lot”, but say collected, keep your voice at the regular volume and just push back with “I cannot do this task if you do not tell me how you want it done. Give me instructions.” and escalate to someone above him because he is not the end all, he is not your master, he is not the highest and mightiest.

    2. The New Wanderer*

      It sounds like you’re going to be doing this with a new manager, not the horrible guy from last year’s eval? If so, I would be proactive and talk to your manager now to explain the situation. Say you would like some guidance as to how to complete the review since you don’t have standard KPIs. A reasonable manager would understand this request. The last manager was terrible and it’s not surprising he was “on the way out” (hopefully fired for obvious incompetence).

      1. tamarack and fireweed*

        Yes, this. You aren’t saying much how you’re getting on with the new person. If they seem like a basically competent manager, then they should be fine with you approaching them and, if you trust them enough, even saying something like “Last time, when we did the self-evaluations for the first time, I found it hard to figure out how to go about it. This was when X was still our manager, and as you know they left just after, and I was left without being able to clear up how to use this process in a way that we get something out of it.”

        Don’t slam your previous manager – this sort of thing needs to be said in a somewhat political style, but between the line an experienced manager would read “my predecessor royally messed this up”.

        Also, in my experience, having an employee redo a self-evaluation isn’t how this is supposed to be used! Sure, some employees are pretty much spot-on with how their manager evaluates them, and some are off (in either direction). You kinda don’t want to come across as having an inflated view of your capacities, but when you seriously think that you are fulfilling a category as well as any could possibly do, then you can back it up if you give yourself a high rating.

        As for the categories, one previous employer used these self-evaluations, and for a while we changed the provider/question set every. single. year. The first few iterations were horrible. The questions would fit only some job titles (say, work well for sales associates, but not technical support engineers), or presumed KPIs that we didn’t have for what was asked. The one we ended up with, and was actually really good IMHO, had only a short list of fairly general questions, where you rated yourself on a scale from 1-5 or so on categories like goal attainment, training level & needs, advancement progression, teamwork, with a paragraph to write for each category. Then a meeting with a meeting with the manager in which each category was discussed, feedback given (and then written down). It was mostly about performance, but also somewhat of an employee survey. I ended in goal-setting for the next evaluation period in each category (some more important than others) that would be the basis for the next round of evaluations a year later.

      2. Anon this time*

        Yes, this is the new manager. Except this one is C level and hasn’t really taken the time to get to know our department’s role. The problem with being self sufficient is that when you do need help, there’s no one around.
        The other issue is me. I’m not great with verbal anything. I’m better with email. (I mean, I’m so bad at talking to people I generally reherse in my head all the different ways a conversation could go before i have it and go into it with notes.) Mr C level is all about the verbal.
        I’ve been looking online at sample self evaluations and they’re all about accomplishments. I’m a background worker and I’m happy back there. I don’t have any accomplishments like “did xyz which drove sales up by 102%”. I’m more of a “yeah, that one’s been entered right and that other department got the stuff in on time, so out it goes” I’m kind of a go between for the other departments.
        I’m trying figure out how to prove I’m good at my job to someone who doesn’t really understand what my job is. The fact that the only thing he has to go on is a misguided (in my opinion) review is making it worse.

        1. Bismuth*

          But these are accomplishments! Important ones, the kind that keep the place running.

          There have been other threads on this — do a search for resume accomplishments. I know Alison’s covered these questions, one fairly recently. It’s phrasing it as stuff like “kept workflow on schedule 95% of time” or whatever. Your achievements are your efficiency, accuracy, unflappability, and ability to work with other departments. Your success allows others to succeed. Someone high up might really appreciate this, too.

          I’d suggest writing everything out — including a one-sentence explanation of your role(s) and department, if you think he really won’t know — so you have the phrasing you want. It might even get added to the file (hand it to him if you think that’s at all a possibility!).

          Most importantly — don’t be afraid to toot your own horn! No one else will (certainly not #8 Jackass). Keep a file of things you’ve achieved, such as thank-you emails, a report that says your department met X goal, your certificate when you acquired X skill, a note of the extra hours worked or the report you did when you stepped up because a colleague was out. This gives you a place to start for these evals, and serve to remind you of how awesome you are. And honestly, helping to keep a department going through 9(!) managers is saying something! You strike me as someone who’s too modest. I’d love to have a colleague like you!

          1. valentine*

            Email new guy. Tell him how old guy did evaluations (or no?) and ask him to look at the last one and let you know how it compares to what he’s looking for. Maybe he would prefer to meet about it?

            You’ll need to practice and to improve your verbal skills.

        2. tamarack and fireweed*

          It’s not great that a C-level manager is in charge of this — I believe it sounds like you should be managed by someone at least two, if not four levels down. And your workplace doesn’t sound like a tiny company…

          But anyhoo, if they’re big on measurable accomplishments, you could start by grouping your tasks into rough categories and look at the impact of these. You support other departments. Which ones? What does your support enable *them* to do? If there are no formal goals, are there informal ones? Eg, “getting stuff in time”– how is this quantified? How often does it happen/not happen? What would you need to iron out things that don’t happen “in time”? Better communication? Task assignment flow? Or “entering stuff right” — apparently accuracy in recordkeeping is important. Why? How is it checked? What are the obstacles? How would you quantify the progress you’ve made since the last appraisal? Questions like this … they’re meant to get you thinking so that you can take better charge of where this appraisal is going. (Also, if you’re a team, even if you aren’t super communicative, it might be helpful to have a conversation with your co-workers. Like “Question 4, where they ask us to put numbers on our accomplishments, what kind of things do you write in there? Should it be the number of teapot safety certifications per week on the average and how many export slips we file for the sales department?'”)

  199. Kisses*

    My husband..is a good guy. But he’s gotten fired from like, every job if he didn’t ghost on them. He doesn’t have a diploma. He’ll be 35 this year, and again he’s unemployed, and we live in a tourist area with a lot of jobs but a LOT of competition. It seems the theme parks want diplomas. What should he even be trying to apply for just to get some money in the house? We’re sinking pretty fast and he’s getting zero phone calls. He has computer experience but again, no degrees or certifications, no money to get said certifications, and even places like Walmart and Papa Johns won’t call him. What do we do? I can’t support the man and the expenses here are eating me alive. We can’t afford to move back to our hometown right now either- when I say I don’t have money, I mean I can’t even scrape up fifty cents. We’re that broke. If he did get a call, there’s the problem of getting him a hair cut and an outfit that doesn’t have holes in it- I don’t know what to do anymore.

    1. KR*

      Can he do physical labor? Highway construction crews hire people to direct traffic. Or construction crews? Could he look into driving a taxi or shuttle bus? Or cleaning crews for junked houses/trash removal? The work is hard and the pay can’t be amazing but it’s enough to get him working every day and bringing some money in. I’m sorry that sounds really hard, and it’s worth a bigger picture discussion about him figuring out why he can’t seem to keep a job and remedying it eventually.

      1. Kisses*

        I think clean up for construction around here is a pretty reliable industry and I’ll remind/hound him about that. We do have a vehicle he purchased with a loan last year, and if he wants to keep the dang thing he needs to get into something and stop dragging his feet.
        I appreciate the thought out replies and support- we married very young and as difficult as it might be I do need to seriously consider that I’m giving 150% to his occasional 50%.

    2. NicoleK*

      Is there a plasma donation center in your area? It’s not a job, but he’ll get some cash.

    3. Princesa Zelda*

      If y’all have a car in decent shape, he could look into side-gig style things just to get some money coming in, like retrieving those Bird scooters and charging them. That will get enough money to at least go to Walmart or Good Will and get a polo and some jeans. My experience in retail is that if you’re clean and vaguely professional in the interview, and you haven’t ghosted or been fired for cause (and sometimes even then), you’ll get hired for undesirable shifts like overnight stocker or cart pusher. It’s not glamorous but it’s not nothing.

      Also, sometimes in food service/retail, you actually do have to do an amount of follow-up that would be annoying in a professional setting – don’t hound them, but I had to call my current employer a couple times to remind them I was in the hiring process because it was assigned to an hourly supervisor with no hiring experience, and when I was an hourly sup I had no idea what I was doing and mostly hired anyone who told me that they were interested and had the right availability.

      1. Kisses*

        You’re right, availability being open frequently gets me in the door more than having required experience.
        I’ll let him know to touch base with the food service jobs he’s applied to. Thank you, Princess.

    4. valentine*

      Clothing: thrift stores. Check with your library and Christian churches about possible resources, including anyone who does haircuts at home and where they refer homeless men. See if you qualify for your local food bank. Apply for hospital and other financial aid. He can check with a barber school or just barbershops about discounts.

      The willingness to work is one of the top things I need in a partner, so I don’t understand this kind of relationship. It would be very different if you agreed only you would work outside the home and if he happily found part-time or other work as necessary. Does your work have an EAP program that he can access to talk to somebody about whether he is self-sabotaging? Why is he happy for you to bear sole responsibility for the family finances?

      If he doesn’t want to work, your efforts are best directed at separating and planning your own way out of this quicksand.

      1. Kisses*

        Thank you- it can be hard to hear but sometimes I think I need to see it from an outside perspective. So I really appreciate the response. Certainly when we got married it was assumed we would both be pulling the weight since we both had minimum wage full time jobs at the time. 3 years ago I had to leave a keyholder position I had for 6 years to help my mother out at home, and have only been able to find part time since then. He seems content to bounce around and frequently calls out even when he does have work.

    5. MatKnifeNinja*

      I’m assuming about your husband…

      No criminal record. Like employee theft. DUI. Low level drug conviction. Nothing horrendous, but in a competitive area, employers go nope.

      No learning disabilities, where his frustration tolerance vaporizes because he’s working 4 times as hard to keep up.

      No dishonorable discharge from the military (deal breaker where I live)

      He can pass a pre employment drug screen? Weed is legal in my state, many employers will not hire if you test dirty.

      The two places by me that will hire people fresh out of prison/jail are car washes/detailing and landscaping. Think small companies, not McDonalds.
      Toweling off cars or flipping sod is not glamorous, but some money coming in is better than nothing.

      Does your state have something like vocational rehab/job training? He has nothing to lose checking it out. With some luck he might get into a job training program or get his GED out of the deal.

      If you can send feelers out to local churches, some make it a mission to get people back into the work place.

      No HS diploma shouldn’t be a total deal breaker. I know a guy who works at my local carwash with a sex crime conviction against a minor. He did his time. He’s out and working. Went to high school with me and didn’t graduate. If this guy with all that baggage can find work, I’m sure your husband can.

      Think small shops, small business, work of mouth, best friend gives reference to someone.

      Good luck!

      1. Kisses*

        Ok- yeah he’s put in a few applications with larger corporations and it might be what you said. No criminal record, he can pass a drug screen, he is just one of the laziest people I’ve ever seen and I’m still holding out hope that SOMETHING will motivate him. I’ve worked for almost all the time we’ve been together and haven’t been able to better myself- maybe that’s what I should focus on here, things like trying to finish college so my son has an inkling of what hard work should look like.

    6. Cheesesteak in Paradise*

      Erm, I hate to the only one to say this but divorce?

      Can you see yourself supporting him, being broke for the rest of your life? Do you want kids?

      There’s something going on with someone who gets fired or stops showing up for all jobs in their life… I don’t know what it is but it’s probably out of your ability to fix.

      A temporary solution would be temp agency or maybe TaskRabbit for short term gigs.

      But a longer term solution is not roping your life to a sinking ship. Unless he can honestly do the work to figure out why he’s flailing (not just “my boss sucks”, “these jobs are no good”).

      1. WellRed*

        +1. You’re very focused on how he doesn’t have this degree or that certification. That’s not why he GHOSTS employers. Lots if people don’t have degrees and manage to hold down jobs. Quit making excuses for him. Is there something else going on that needs to be addressed first?

        1. Kisses*

          I see what you mean. I guess I figured if he had a job that paid a little better than most he would have more incentive to stick with it.

      2. Kisses*

        Don’t feel bad for saying it, I think it all the time. It’s almost happened twice but he pulls the old “I’ll change I promise” out and it will pull me back in. We have a 15 year old and I can’t even do the normal stuff for him like extracurriculars, permit, and college planning. He calls him an “unemployed asshole” and I can’t get mad at him for calling it how he sees it.

  200. Anonerson*

    I’m looking for an AAM post and not having any luck with the archives or search engine. I seem to remember a recent post about one workplace’s prohibition on giving references. I’m facing the same situation at my job now and trying to figure out options, but I can’t locate that post to use as a resource. If anyone remembers roughly when it was posted or could even just confirm that I’m not imagining it, I’d really appreciate it!

    1. Akcipitrokulo*

      Found a couple…

      /2009/10/employer-wont-give-job-references.html
      /2008/02/company-wont-give-references.html

      and it was briefly mentioned in an open thread /2018/03/open-thread-march-30-31-2018.html#comment-1920604

    2. Akcipitrokulo*

      Also I’m in similar position at the moment (I’m moving jobs and want references) – managers have said that they are willing to give personal references and all they need to do is put a disclaimer on it saying that they are not speaking on behalf of the company but their purely personal opinion is…

      1. Anonerson*

        Thank you! That’s why I couldn’t find it – I’d forgotten it was in an open thread. That’s a good tip about the disclaimers; I’ll definitely be checking if that’s an option for my references!

  201. Ed*

    This is actually a situation my partner is dealing with, and I was just wondering if the excellent commentariot here might have any advice.

    We live in an at-will employment state in the US. They work as a cashier at an office supply store. They had a doctor’s note when they started the job which states that they have a minor but potentially serious disability which causes severe pain if they stand for long period of time, and said that they need the ability to sit for short periods as needed throughout their shift.

    Their head manager said this note was too vague, and they needed a new note which outlined precise instructions. So they got a new note which says they need to be allowed to sit down for 5-10 minutes every other hour.

    They are willing to continue working while seated, but the management has decided that they have to take these breaks in the back, which essentially means they are getting three paid breaks per shift rather than one, and just sitting around not doing anything for a total of 30-45 minutes per shift. The rationale here, I guess, is that it “looks bad” to have an employee sitting down briefly at the cash register.

    The head manager recently decided that what will happen is they will get one 5 minute seated break, one 10 minute seated break, and this will count as their legally mandated 15 minute break. IMO this is a petty way to handle it and seems designed to ‘punish’ my partner for needing an accommodation, but I also think it could qualify as a ‘reasonable’ way of meeting the required accommodation.

    My partner had a talk with the manager about it today, though, and the manager was just extremely rude and punitive about the breaks. She made it clear she thinks my partner is lazy and that it is ‘unfair’ that my partner gets ‘extra breaks’ – even though she’s the one who decided they have to sit in the back instead of up front at the register! She said my partner didn’t disclose a disability on their application as a way of implying they are or were being dishonest. She said “you said you have an open schedule but always want a day off” – those ‘days off’ are doctor’s appointments for various chronic conditions, scheduled months in advance, when the schedule at work is only made and given out a week in advance, meaning my partner can’t wait and schedule appointments around their schedule, but has to request the days of appointments off.

    (Sidenote, they were promised a specific schedule with specific days off every week, verbally, but this schedule was unexpectedly altered. I think this is just part of working in retail, but I also think that verbally promising a consistent schedule, then going back on it, then getting mad when someone makes sure to be diligent about when they can’t work due to an appointment, is a really crappy way to behave and seems like part and parcel of this manager’s obviously discriminatory attitude.)

    She then said, threateningly, that she is reaching out to HR about it. I admit, I am waiting with bated breath to see how the HR department of this nationwide chain company takes “I’m bullying an employee about their accommodations, for which they have a doctor’s note as I requested, because I think it’s unfair that they get the accommodations they went through the proper channels to get and I think they’re lazy and lying.” Of course, I’m sure she’s going to spin it as my partner being an unreliable and lazy employee.

    I just wonder what the general take is here – I feel like this is an obvious pattern of discrimination based on disability. I feel like my partner’s accommodation is very reasonable and does not need to interfere with their duties as a cashier, nor their other duties – the job requires being able to stand and walk, but they don’t even need to sit the whole time, and this also implies they wouldn’t hire anyone with a more serious mobility impediment to be a cashier, which I think is patently ridiculous, because nothing about that job requires you to be able to stand the entire time. I think that their own decisions have led to this seeming unfair, because they didn’t have to choose to send my partner to the back room to sit for 10 minutes for these breaks, and it’s ridiculous to then turn around and punish my partner for their own decisions.

    I’m curious if this seems like it could rise to the level of a successful case of discrimination based on disability, especially if they fire my partner. They’re a good employee by all available metrics – they’ve been told they learn fast and are good at meeting various quotas. I’m inclined to think that the clear pattern of the manager’s behavior about the accommodation, statements that the accommodation is ‘unfair’ even after my partner got a doctor’s note precisely requesting they be given the accommodation as per the manager’s request, and the actually very minor and non-interfering nature of the accommodation mean that if my partner were let go, we would have a good case that it is actually due to discrimination. What do you guys think?

    And does anyone have any resources about this sort of thing? We are pretty poor (we both work retail part-time) and can’t necessarily throw a lot of money at this. We can’t survive for very long at all on one income. At the same time, I don’t want my partne to just grin and bear it when they’re being denied reasonable accommodations for which they have a doctor’s note.

    Any ideas?

    1. The Man, Becky Lynch*

      I’m pretty sure that their requirements will have it outlined that you have to be able to stand for the duration of your shift, that’s enough to say that they don’t have to ever hire someone who needs to be seated as an accommodation. You do not have to make your job disability-friendly at all costs in that way.

      Just like when we hire people who have to be able to lift 50lbs repetitively but if someone needed additional rest breaks during that time, we’d run into a production issue and that isn’t going to be allowed for anything more than light duty instances.

      The thing is she’s going to go to HR and say that he’s demanding these accommodations that will mess with their most likely corporate ruling that cashiers have to be standing and not eating/drinking while at their post, etc. This happens all the time in retail sadly, major chains or not, they have unreasonable gross ideas of what their “optics” are. So don’t be too certain HR will ever side with you here, they most likely won’t listen if you say the manager is being aggressive, that’s on par for retail [again sad fact about that horrible industry].

      Reasonable accommodation isn’t up to the employee, it’s up to the company itself, as it has to be reasonable for their standards and practices. The doctors note puts them on notice that they are requesting accommodations, if and only if they exist. They are within their rights to say “You have to take these breaks in the back” and they are of their rights to adjust breaks if necessary [unless there are state rules that mandate breaks of course, then that’s a state issue].

      I’ve seen this played out countless times with uncaring, nasty employers, which is what I’m sad to say is what your partner is facing. Mine has had similar issues in retail prior to finally being able to escape that monstrosity. Not due to disability but simply bad, vindictive and downright nasty management.

      This will boil down to him being taken off the schedule in the end if the manager gets to that point of “I’m over it” which is how retail deals with firing people without actually firing them, just actively removing them from the schedule along the way.

      1. MatKnifeNinja*

        My friend worked as a cashier in a big box store who wanted a sitting break due to back/leg issues. Standing in one spot, over many hours made it flare.

        Putting a chair by the register was a no go according to management. The one place that would accommodate a chair was customer service, and there were no openings there.

        Welp, manager “promoted” her stock/bottle return and she lasted three months. The non stop running around did her in.

        The employer gives the accommodations if there is no hardship. There is a website from the employers point of view on this. (Job Accommodations Network ) They don’t have to create a new job. They don’t have to move you to another position. If the accommodations change the dynamics of other people’s jobs, the employer doesn’t have to do it.

        For company that goes beyond what is ADA required, there are plenty who legally do a *nope*.

        I’ve see people on small stools at tinier retail places run a register. My friend’s company had three pages of reasons why they could not.

        Check out the website and see if there is anything useful for your friend. Retail is almost impossible getting any concessions if you have to man the store floor.

        1. valentine*

          There is no business need to have anyone standing for an entire shift. It’s disgusting and ableist.

          The forced breaks should still be separate from a proper break.

          1. MatKnifeNinja*

            My friend shift was 4 hours total with a 30 minute break in between.

            She wanted to sit for 5 minutes after 55 minutes of standing. The company said the chair was a hazard, and it was too hard to pull someone to cover her register for those 5 minutes.

            Punted to stock/bottle return because she could take a sit break as needed, but the 55 minutes of non stop walking did her in.

            The store said they weren’t a charity, and they weren’t going to modify the job requirements. Totally disgusting.

            She did get another cashier job, but it’s minimum wage with absolutely no benefits. Her other job had some benefits. Not much but better than zero.

    2. Bismuth*

      I’d start looking for new work now. It’s a good time to be looking, at least (depending on where you’re located) — lots of signs in windows near me for cashiers, etc. Good luck!

    3. NoLongerYoungButLotsWiser*

      and some other jobs will be more lenient. I’ve seen Office Depot (day time) and cashiers at the quick stops here (later shifts), with folks sitting on a stool at the register, ringing up. So while this one is a jerk, others may not be. I would think that any job where there is a steady stream of customers and a need for accuracy on the till, a solid worker could have an accommodation if the boss were decent. Also, look for employers that stress accommodation, disability, etc.
      Also, if your partner is good with the register, ringing up, etc… try to move out of pure retail and look for working at the cashier’s window at the pharmacy, the hospital /bill pay, other cashier locations that are related to health care.Bank teller, maybe.
      Easier said than done, I know. But accuracy is worth a lot. (friend’s daughter got a job working as the cashier at the optician’s office… keying in the order, and running the account/ connected to the right credit card accurately are actually super important skills these days.

      1. KR*

        I know someone who worked as a cashier at a state park! Sitting in a booth on a cushy stool taking entrance fees for the park and for the camp ground. No lifting and was encouraged to read books or watch Netflix on his off time. Paid very well too. They’re out there if you can find them

    4. anonagain*

      I’ve found the job accommodation network very helpful in understanding the laws and my rights: AskJAN dot org. The website has lots of resources, but I still found it worthwhile to call them and speak to someone about my situation. You’ll get accurate information rather than the internet’s best guesses.

      As far as how to proceed, I am inclined to agree with Bismuth. I think it’s worth getting out before the situation deteriorates further.

      I really hope things work out for your partner.

    5. KR*

      Hi, not sure if you have a dicks sporting goods in your area. My dad worked there as a second job and really enjoyed it. He has a fever back injury and they set him up at the firearm counter with a stool. He didn’t have any pressure to lift above his weight limit or bend, was encouraged to implement work modifications to make his job easier and safer for him, and they were really good with his scheduling. Assuming this is a thing with their company culture one in your area may be a better fit for your partner. Sadly this is super common in retail and fast food. I think part of it is the management is usually someone who hasn’t had a lot of experience outside of retail and isn’t aware of what their responsibilities are under the law and how what they think is “good management” is them just being an asshole

    6. AnonJ*

      Yes, your state has an EEOC/Human Rights Commission type board that will hear these complaints. I CANNOT imagine an EEOC/HRC board agreeing that the ‘optics’ of having an employee sitting in a raised chair at a register for 5-10 minutes at a time, or even ALL THE TIME, would be an undue burden on the employer, if that employee is otherwise able to attend to the essentials of the job.

      Then there are also legal aid organizations, your state’s vocational rehabilitation agency and other possibilities for guidance.

      If you post what state you’re in maybe we can help with some specific links to assistance. Personally, this infuriates me and I would love to give you some state specific guidance on navigating this BS.

  202. T+F*

    Maybe someone still wants to weigh in on this…. academic job drama!

    I’m applying for academic and research staff jobs at the same university from which I graduated with a PhD. I had two co-advisors. One was an incredibly supportive & experienced full professor and has by now advanced to a senior leadership position at the institution. The other is in a purely research position, not experienced with advising (I was their first graduate who actually finished, even though at least one other started ahead of me and should long have been done). More importantly, #2 is an abysmal manager who doesn’t even know what it takes to manage teams (something I have done in a previous career) and I guess feels that working on their skills would be beneath them as a scientist. Out relationship has been at times conflictual, and I am aware that they think of me as, let’s say not hardworking enough. I’ve been the one driving conflict-avoidance by cultivating a certain teflon-like cheerful blandness.

    My concern is letters of recommendation. #1 I know will recommend me warmly, but is very aware of their position of power and the need to scrupulously avoid even the appearance of favoritism towards me. I agree with this philosophy. #2 isn’t a great letter-of-recommendation writer at the best of times, and has been somewhat lackluster in the more recent past, basically copying and pasting from previous iterations rather than being thoughtful about what the putative reader of LoRs will be looking for.

    The stuff I’m applying for…

    Position A is basically my dream job. It’s kinda the successor of #1 in the department, but scaled down to a lower level of seniority. I formally qualify, but am under no undue illusions. I have nonetheless applied for it, but found it hard not to self-sabotage in my materials… Also, another candidate for position A (let’s call them #3) is advisor #1’s *previous* student, who graduated ~5 years ahead of me and is highly qualified. They’re also someone I highly respect and would work with very well. I do not know whether #1 applied for position A. I don’t think it’s likely, but wouldn’t be surprising.

    Position B is related to the same project that position A is for, but more junior. I’m very highly qualified for it. In fact, I have experience with some of the instrumentation and study object that other candidates are unlikely to offer. #3 is on the hiring committee for this position and will be the group leader for whoever gets position B works, though that may change over a year or so if someone else than #3 gets position A.

    Position C is a wildcard that just came up today. It’s in a different department, and at the same level as position A. (I’d qualify the level as “comes 2 years too early for me to be a great candidate, but that’s not a sufficient reason not to apply”.) None of #1-#3 are likely to be involved in hiring decisions.

    THE QUESTION: Should I ask #1 for a letter of recommendation? It would look odd if I didn’t, but I’m not convinced the letter would be as strong as I need to be competitive. Should I maybe talk to them (we’re on speaking terms), tell them I’m applying for these jobs and ask whether they think they can write me a suitable letter?

    1. NoLongerYoungButLotsWiser*

      I’m not in academia so take my advice with a grain of salt.
      If it will look odd if you don’t have a letter from #1, then you need it.
      For the person who copies and pastes – #2, maybe (if there is any way to do it) say “I did put together a few relevant bullet points from things you’ve said to me, targeted for these jobs, that you could adapt if you want to” (thought process here – if they are big on copy and paste, they are likely to just use these points in the letter). I’ve had folks just say “write what you want me to say and I’ll sign it.” (Yeah, I know….) Be sure to get someone else to review it to make sure it doesn’t sound exactly like your resume, though! ( If the writing sounds like you, it’s suspicious).
      Good luck.

      1. T+F*

        Thanks. Yeah, pre-writing letters of recommendation is common, though a) I hate it (I can’t write a good letter for myself, nowhere as good as others have — I feel monumentally stupid to write the kind of superlatives that someone who really thinks highly of you will) and b) for these kinds of jobs, most of the time the hiring committee will approach the reference, but still often request a formal letter for documentation.

        #1 will write me one, no question, but will not throw their power behind me the way they (I think) might if they were still faculty. For #2 I’m weighing “they won’t write me a stellar letter” with “it’ll look odd if I leave them off”.

  203. Overeducated*

    Yesterday I was at an off-site meeting with someone I’m hoping to work for (applied for a job elsewhere in my large org that he’d supervise last week). I took a wrong turn in an unfamiliar area and was the last person into the meeting at exactly the start time, so that was not a great first impression, but afterward I found a second to say “hey good to meet you in person, just wanted to let you know I applied for that job.” Probably won’t help but at least he should know who I am and that I’m interested if the application makes it past HR. Cross your fingers for me!

  204. Crossroads*

    I’m looking for some best practice advice.
    A company I work with (for a couple years) has a job opening that I am interested in applying for. I know the person directly and would like to email them about the job to let them know I’m interested and to see if they would consider me. I’m not sure the best way to email them or what to say without accidentally creating a faux pas. The other issue is I would need it to be confidential as my boss doesn’t know I’d be asking about the position. Any advice is great appreciated!

  205. Smart but needs therapy - heard this before?*

    This is for a friend who is a manager, brought in to manage some teams. I’m sure there’s been great stuff posted, but I’m having trouble finding the key words to locate the previous listings. She has a
    up from grass roots line manager, Cersei, who has a brilliant staffer, let’s call her Sansa.

    Sansa does not take criticism well and also blows off her 1:1s. If she had emotional intelligence, she could be promoted to run one of the teams – but she is kind of an unaware jerk. Very well educated, very good at her job. But expects the promotion when she doesn’t have the ability to manage people.

    My friend is the grand boss; the immediate manager is a great manager of everyone else, but Sansa – not responding. They don’t want to lose Sansa, her productivity and performance are fine, but her expectations are that she will be made a manager – which she can’t be….

    I tried to channel my inner Allison, and said that it has to be a dicussion, that they want Sansa to grow, and become a manager – if Sansa has that as a goal – but that they need to be very clear that she can’t blow off 1:1s and be snarky to coworkers.

    I’m sure there is other great advice- I’m just flailing tonight in finding it.

    1. valentine*

      It’s not just that she can’t do those things. They need to describe the opposite behavior she needs to get good at even in her current role and explain that seniority, alone, isn’t what matters. Is she even any good at the skills managers need? Is she a good leader? Does she object, then commit? They should be honest that, while they value her, it’s as an individual contributor.

    2. LGC*

      You are right…for the most part.

      From the way you described it, Sansa sounds like a brilliant jerk. (This may be because Sansa IS a brilliant jerk.) And you’re right that if your friend hasn’t communicated her numerous performance issues to her – and yes, regularly being rude to her coworkers, getting upset at criticism, and blowing off meetings with her manager are performance issues – she needs to do so immediately. But…what it sounds like is that your friend doesn’t think Sansa has the capability to be a manager, and I think that suggesting that she wants to see her grow into a management position would be dishonest.

      I would probably mention what needs to be addressed before a promotion would even be considered, and note that just because she addresses it will not be a guarantee that she gets promoted. (Likewise, I think this may also be an instance where Sansa just needs to go from a 7 to a 4 on her Sansa-ness. Except on the 1:1s – she needs to start showing up to those, and Cersei should be checking in with her to make sure she’s not running roughshod over the rest of the team.) And I think that it might need to come from your friend herself if she’s in charge of promotions.

      Finally, Sansas are usually…frustrated. So is there a way where Sansa is recognized without becoming management? That might be the best way to direct her energies initially.

      1. Smart but needs therapy - heard this before?*

        Thank you both for your help!! This was a pretty quick conversation, so I may not have every detail perfect, but this is invaluable!

  206. Fake Old Converse Shoes (not in the US)*

    So, this week has been surprising.
    My coworker – lets call him Luke- lost two team members in a week, which means that his team got reduced to just two in more of less a month. I’m worried that Luke will burn out any second now, because his workload tripled while he still was cleaning the disaster left by the first person who resigned. Yes, we’re interviewing, but so far all the candidates have little to no working experience, so it’s going to take a (long) while to find someone who is good enough to join the team. All of that considering Luke will still be with us by that time, which is not a given since he’s super stressed and tired (and probably job searching). Is there anything I can do to support him besides saying “I’m sorry you’re going through such a crappy time”? Maybe I could offer to be his reference if he ever needs one, but I’m not sure that’s good enough.

    1. Buu*

      Can you pull in someone for another department to help him out? or hire an experienced temp?

  207. hoi polloi*

    I recently applied for a job, and on Thursday one of their HR people called me to schedule an interview. We agreed on a time on Wednesday 1 May, and she said she’d be emailing confirmations later on. I didn’t receive any email from her that day, and now it’s Easter so she won’t be back in the office until Tuesday at the earliest. To compound things, here in New Zealand we have another public holiday (Anzac Day) on Thursday, and it’s quite common for people to take the whole week off whenever Easter and Anzac Day fall a few days apart on the same week. So I don’t know if she’ll be back in the office at all next week, and by the following week this might have slipped off her radar. If I don’t get an email from her early next week, should I call her back to follow up with her? I know where the company’s office in my city is located, but I’d like to confirm details such as whether it’s OK to use the valet parking they provide for clients. I just don’t want to come across as pushy by following up too early, but also kind of want to put my mind at ease by getting the email confirmation she promised so that I know it’s going ahead.

    1. WellRed*

      They’ve scheduled the interview, basically? Why do you think it will fall off the radar? If you must follow up this week, I’d acknowledge that it’s a holiday week and you realize she may be out. It’s hard to be on the job seeker side. It feels more URGENT! But to them, not so much.

  208. ExpatInTheHat*

    So do we have any kind of Ask A Manager coworker bingo around here? Cause I have a new one who’s checking quite a few boxes, hahaha.

    Some context: I’m American but I currently live in Eastern Asia (one of the three main countries you probably think of when that area is mentioned). I am, what else, an English instructor, as Westerners in these situations often are here. Last year I worked through a governmental program and all of my coworkers were from the country I work in. I have many stories from that time itself, but I recently changed jobs to work at what you’ve probably heard called a “cram school” and now work with a majority of other Americans, and one of them is just a gem. An absolute gem. /sarcasm When I first met him I immediately thought he was a condescending jerk but thought I was maybe being ungenerous. Turns out my gut was spot on.

    So far he has invited me to the church he’s part of/volunteers for at least three times (I looked it up and it’s Evangelical influenced and has connections to certain American television megachurches that are definitely homophobic so I was like Hell Nope) despite my lack of interest, told me how it would “change my life,” repeatedly told me about the diet he’s on, “jokingly” criticized my food choices during lunch, and been condescending about the way I choose to teach. For example, rather than asking “why did you choose to teach XYZ in this way?” just said “so….I don’t really understand what the point of that was, but okay, I guess” and walked away. He also generally makes no effort to know or learn anything about the country we’re in (and from his stories, this has been a pattern for the other countries he’s lived in, where he’s done the same thing), seems to only be here to recruit for his church, is generally not great at even being a teacher – and I quote, “Oh, well, Student wrote something factually incorrect in this essay, but eh, whatever, I’m not going to correct it. It’s only [Elective] class, anyway.” He’s even made comments to students about other students’ families being “good, church-going families.”

    Specifically in terms of the food, he told me all about how he’s a licensed nutritionist (which, from my understanding, doesn’t necessarily denote good knowledge/advice depending on the person), and offered to give me dietary advice if I ever wanted it. That itself wasn’t so egregious, I just said “oh, thanks,” and moved on. Then he started talking to the teachers as a group all about the diet he does, and continued to tell the group of us how it would change our lives despite all of the group members saying multiple times that we were happy with the way we ate now. Three days later he came in talking about how he was all excited and when asked why, casually dropped in “oh my friend lost X amount of weight on my diet.” I gave a disinterested “oh good for them.” The next time he does it I’m definitely going to “jokingly” ask if he’s calling me fat and then state clearly that I don’t want to try his diet, nor do I want his food advice.

    Unfortunately, management likes to generally leave us to our own devices a lot of the time, and I can’t see either of our bosses doing much about this unless it really escalates more, so at this point I’m just internally rolling my eyes at him and tuning out what he says. I’m also currently working on preparations to move into a different industry still in this country, so I have a positive goal to focus on, at least!

    1. former EFL teacher*

      I also live in an East Asian country (also one of the three main ones you probably think of when you think of East Asia), and I also taught through a government program, but I had quite a bit of interaction with other foreign teachers who were hired through private companies (similar/sometimes the same parent company as cram schools). If I had a dime for every person who behaved very similarly to the person you’re mentioning above I probably could quit working as soon as my visa allowed for it, haha.

      It sounds like you’re handling it really professionally (probably better than I did at multiple times…), but I just wanted to say I feel your pain! Good luck dealing with the jerk in the future, and hopefully he’ll move on to a different job quickly!

      1. Lilith*

        He sounds like a boor. By the way, there’s no such thing as a licensed nutritionist so thank you for putting that in quotes. And might i just add, what a shame it sounds to not avail oneself of learning about the country you’re living in. What a missed opportunity.

    2. Akcipitrokulo*

      One of my favourite bits from Dara O’Briain…

      “Here’s my favourite little fact – if anyone’s described ever to you as a “nutritionist”, just be slightly wary, alright?

      “What they’re saying might be perfectly true, but nutritionist isn’t the protected term – anyone can call themselves a nutritionist.

      “Dietitian is the legally protected term.

      “Dietitian is like dentist, and nutritionist is like toothiologist.”

  209. House Tyrell*

    I graduated with my MA in December and am still on the job hunt! It’s been pretty depressing in a lot of ways- I accepted an offer than was rescinded the week I was supposed to start when they restructured, I’ve had multiple interviewers just ghost me after saying they’d get back to me within X number of weeks). My field does require a master’s degree to go beyond most entry level jobs and I do have nearly 4 years of relevant work experience. I went to an early college high school and so I’m still 22, but I haven’t been unemployed since I was 17, and I even worked summer jobs in high school. I’m not used to not having work or school or organizations to be a part of and it’s hard to get out of bed most days. I started applying to jobs a little over 6 months ago, but lost my graduate assistant position when I graduated in December, so I’ve been unemployed for about 4 months now. For those of who have experienced short or long term unemployment, how did you cope with depression and motivate yourself to keep going? I’m still managing to apply to jobs almost every day, but it’s emotionally and mentally draining and I feel like a massive failure.

    1. Princesa Zelda*

      Massive hugs!!!
      I had to drop out of college when i was 19 due to some massive life changes and I spent 3 months unemployed while I moved home tried to make things work. I started volunteering at the local food bank so I would have an obligation to put on clean clothes and leave the house, at least, and I wound up less severely depressed after throwing myself into it.

      1. House Tyrell*

        I’m signed up on volunteer match! Right now all the opportunities are at hospice centers and I don’t think I could work there without bursting into tears everyday, but I check a lot for other opportunities. With Earth Day coming up, I signed up for some volunteer shifts with environmental groups and that should motivate me to get up! Did you use any volunteer websites to get involved or go in person to ask if they needed volunteers?

        1. Princesa Zelda*

          Honestly, I was recruited into it because my dad heard they needed people desperately and I was moping around the house, but all the other volunteers just showed up one day and asked if we needed redes help! It’s my understanding that’s how most food banks and other smaller orgs get their volunteers. If you find an organization whose mission you can get behind, it can’t hurt to ask if you can help. :)

    2. Alianora*

      A six month job search is totally normal! You shouldn’t feel like a failure.

      I tend to fill in the gaps between jobs by taking the opportunity to do things I wouldn’t have time to do while I’m working, and also working odd jobs (writing closed captions, tutoring, helping neighbors clean out their garages) in the meantime.

      1. House Tyrell*

        I’ve been writing closed captions, too, and walking dogs (walking dogs significantly helps because it feels so therapeutic!) I was very lucky that my landlords weren’t renewing my lease and let me out of it early so I could move in with family for the time being, so I at least don’t have rent to pay! The first month of unemployment felt awesome because I had basically been in college since I was 14 so it was great to have time to catch up on TV and movies and stay in bed when it was cold in January, but the charm has worn off by now as my student loan repayment period approaches and I lose my free military-dependent healthcare in a month. I’ll look into tutoring though, I hadn’t thought of that!

    3. Buu*

      Look on sites like meetup for social groups for fun things to do, but particularly groups related to your field. Not only will it get you out of your house and give you some structure, but you can hopefully meet people able to connect you with some opportunities or give you advice.

  210. Square Root Of Minus One*

    On Tuesday, the directors will discuss the reshuffling of teams based of people’s wishes.
    I’ve thrown my name in the hat.
    And now I am feeling like crying.

    I work for government, non-US. I was recruited along with a few other people, as we do things here. Based on CVs, I was the one getting a position that was transferred from another site with no people accompanying it.
    I wasn’t recruited especially for this position, but as it turned out it was a match made in heaven. I am very good with it (according to higher-ups, clients) and I really enjoy doing it.
    Only… there’s this coworker on my team. She’s ranked below me but not my report. Openly admitted to undermining me (our common supervisor said nothing), yelled at me at a meeting (again, I was on my own), stabbed me in the back with my n+2, and generally being unpleasant, passive-agressive, or just agressive, and I’m her target of choice when she’s in a bad mood. She’s known to be very difficult in general and seems to have a slew of annoyed people in her path. The only way she could make it clearer that she considers me illegitimate is saying it outright.
    I. Cannot. Take. It. Anymore. Emotional burnout last month, two weeks out of work. Now I’m back, and I’m so done with this BS. I don’t want to work with her anymore. I could confront her, but since most of it is insidious it’ll only do so much good and won’t untie this knot in my stomach.
    Now I wait. And honestly, I feel like I’m grieving. I had found my spot, my specialty, and now… starting over.

  211. Kat in VA*

    No need for advice and I’m all the way at the bottom of a billion comments, but I just want to say I’m utterly overwhelmed at work.

    When I temped at AwesomeJob last year, I was busy but not overly so and I could go home without visions of working spinning in my head and the overwhelming urge to check my email at dinner, before bed, and every time in between. Things were good at the company but not buzzing along as much as they are now. That was in Q1/Q2 of last year. After a few months’ hiatus, the woman I was helping fill in for quit and they offered me the job back, immediately.

    Fast forward to now I’m permanent and HALP I AM DROWN. I have four execs and they’re all in different arms of the company – VP Sales, SVP Engineering, SVP Professional Services, and the CTO. The woman before me supported all of them, but the VP of Sales was the one who took up most of the time (he was new) and the other three kinda muddled along and only had her do expenses and such.

    Then I come along, ever helpful (my pet phrase is “I’m happy to do that for you!”) and I.have.made.a.big.mistake. Execs being execs, they’re MORE than thrilled to have me do a ton of things that the previous person did not do, and I am now OVER MY HEAD IN WORK.

    It doesn’t help that the VP of Sales takes about 90% of my time, the CTO about 40%, the engineering guy another 40%, and the PS guy around 10%. When you look at those numbers, they just don’t add up. Despite all the tracking I’ve put in place, there are literally not enough hours in the day to finish everything I need to do for my guys, and things are slipping through the cracks and they’re having to follow up (which they shouldn’t have to do). Cue me frantically trying to find a car service at 9:30PM for one SVP who, when he travels to the East Coast, always has said car service take him to his house – and I forgot. Welp, the car service was booked solid as it’s the busy season in this area, so I last minute rented him a car. He – last minute – didn’t fly out, and guess who forgot to cancel the rental?

    It’s stuff like the car service/rental cancel that’s starting to slip past me, and I HATE HATE HATE feeling like I’m overwhelmed. I’ve had positive feedback in people assuring me that it was in *no way* this busy when I was there before and they don’t know how I keep up with it all and the answer is…I’m not. Folks have also noted that I should only be handling the VP of Sales and no one else, but I’m loath to say “I can’t manage the other three execs”. That’s the job, right? I’m not keeping up with it and I’m feeling like an incompetent failure. It’s affecting my sleep and my days off. I took a PTO day yesterday (second one of the year and I worked all through the last one) and even though I strictly told myself I would not work, I kept checking my emails on my phone with a mounting sense of alarm and guess who logged in to her work account at 06:30AM today?

    That’s all; I just wanted to put it out there because I’m exhausted, overwhelmed, and feeling like I’ve bitten off way, way more than I can chew.

    1. MissDisplaced*

      I’m sorry and it seems like a lot if you’re managing all that stuff for4 executives!
      I think in your situation there are three ways to go here:
      1. Get another admin or temp help
      2. Serve all four, but create priorities on what you will/will not help them with.
      3. Cut out admin service for at least 1 person

      For instance, travel. At the companies I’ve worked at the Execs were responsible to book their OWN travel, flights, cars and hotels through Egencia. This saves the Admins so much time going back and forth regarding travel preferences!
      Without that travel responsibility, the Admins can take care of more of the “in-office” functions, such as POs and things the Exec needs.

      Have a good think about what scenario would be best, then sit down with your “main” boss and discuss why fully supporting 4 Executives isn’t tenable long term and your proposed solutions of how it can work better. I mean, I can’t say how it is there, perhaps this is just extra-busy with backlog or something and it’s not ongoing?

      1. Kat in VA*

        Lololol how did you know I handle purchasing orders? And events, and trainings, and All Hands meetings, did I mention I take contemporaneous notes for three different (hourlong) staff meetings as well?

        I’m afraid if I say “Y’all do ya own travel/hotel/car stuff” that they’ll rebel since *otheradmin* always did that stuff! Yeah, she did, but she also didn’t have the insane workload the Sales guy is creating for me, nor did she do nearly as many events as I am now putting on the table (or the notes, or the special projects, or…).

        I’ve even gotten pulled into offsite events now too – I racked up 12,000 steps at our last event, whew – and that was chasing two execs around to make sure they made it to their meetings on time.

        The 10% guy wouldn’t suffer so much since he usually does his own travel arrangements – I handle mainly expenses and the occasional project for him. But he’s only 10%. It’s the other three that are really taking a chunk and I can’t think of anywhere I can cut back. Maybe a junior admin would be helpful; I might float that idea at my next 1:1 with my main exec (who’s the Sales guy, and a workhorse, which is a whole ‘nother subject).

  212. Georgia*

    Need some thoughts on an interview I had: 2 weeks ago, I had an interview with a hiring manager and his boss. It was skype so turned off suddenly when they were done and I couldn’t get contact info or next steps. I recieved a response the following week from the hr recruiter with their emails and saying she should have an update on next steps in a couple days. I got a response a few days later saying no updates yet but I’d hear next week. I waited all week for a reply and nothing- but I did get a reply back from the hiring manager to my thank you a week later saying they hoped to wrap up interviews in a few weeks and hr would be in touch with an update. How did it go from an update on next steps in a couple says to a few weeks? I keep thinking I must have bombed the interview and I’m not who they’re looking for, but I can’t understand why they wouldn’t just tell me instead of dragging it out. I know I’m overthinking this, but in the past when I’ve been offered a job, companies have usually been very responsive and wanted to keep me in the loop. On top of that, I know they would want to do a full day second interview, and I’ve communicated I will be traveling for two weeks coming up, so the fact that they haven’t reached out to secure a date for that leads me to believe I probably won’t be asked to come in for it… (I haven’t stopped applying to other jobs in the meantime, this one was just a really good skill match and a step up)

    1. WellRed*

      Maybe they were too optimistic on their timeline and have adjusted accordingly. Maybe they are rethinking what they need in this role, which doesn’t mean not you. At any rate, you know what to do here: mentally move on.

  213. Aleĵandro*

    I recently started working at the central office of a chain of weapons manufacturers. I have a military family history so I know what the general culture is like, but personally am a pacifist, so this isn’t a job I would have chosen for myself – I was placed here by the company that owns this one. Despite my (politically phrased, spending a lot of social capital politely) objections, I was told that due to the company’s current needs, it was either work here or quit.

    I have worked here for two weeks now and have settled in OK despite being uncomfortable. In my first week I sent a friendly email round saying hello to everyone. I got a few replies, which were all positive, but one of them really threw me. Cersei, who I’d heard of but not been introduced to, said she had heard of me from her partner, Alex, who I’d know at college. Yes, I knew Alex – I knew Alex had sexually assaulted my best friend and was incredibly racist, so we stopped talking or being friendly. I’m absolutely baffled that Alex would have mentioned me to Cersei, although Alex is incredibly manipulative and I suspect might have mentioned me in the context of “Aleĵandro is a terrible person”.

    I panicked slightly and just didn’t reply to the email, but now I’ve been told we’re going to be working closely on a few projects. Being new, and having spent social capital in my attempt to be placed literally anywhere else, I don’t feel I can really be asked to not work on the projects. What do I do if Cersei mentions Alex again? How do I work with her knowing this about her partner? I feel like I could have coped with either this work environment, or knowing this about Cersei, but not both.

    1. WellRed*

      First of all, Alex might simply have said, “oh, I went to school with Alejandro.” I think people fear they are of interest or the BIG topic if conversation, when really, no one cares. Try to separate seeing Cersei as being Alex. She may also be a horrible person or naive or simply lack judgment. Second, if you have to “cope” with a workplace, it’s probably not.meant for you, Cersei or not.

      1. Langerhan*

        If they were told “work here or quit” and are still working there, I’d guess the OP can’t afford to quit.

      2. Aleĵandro*

        You’re correct that this is not the workplace for me and the only thing stopping me from quitting (apart from my need to pay rent) is the fact head office have a very clear outline for my getting out again – if I’ve fixed it by August, I’m out in August, if I haven’t, I’m out in September and they’re bringing in the even bigger guns (if you’ll pardon the pun).

        I’d like to imagine no one cares and will do so for my own sake, but it is uncomfortable to know I’m working with someone who is either racist against me or is “just” willing to accept that in a partner.

        1. Darren*

          Or is unaware. People change and also sometimes they just learn to self-filter those things that they know people would object to hearing. You are reading a lot into it.

          This conversation could have gone multiple ways, for example Cersei knew that Alex went to the same school as you and asked if he knew you and he went with the classic, “Yep, we shared a few classes.” and then switched to another topic.

          In fact given his history I’d expect that he likely tries to avoid talking about too many details about his past, especially if he is trying to change or hide that he wasn’t a very good person (and still might not be).

    2. Kat in VA*

      Would this company have a red logo, by any chance? I work for a subsidiary of this company and the culture at the Red Logo Company is, uh, notoriously pretty awful.

      1. Aleĵandro*

        You’re correct in guessing the shade of this particular company’s logo. I had also heard not great things about RLC, and had hoped the fact I’m very good at a particular other thing would protect me from having to work there. Apart from moral objections let’s just say they recruit from a very specific demographic that I very visibly don’t fit.

    3. Lilysparrow*

      Your panic is based on a story you are telling yourself about how important and powerful and scary Alex is, and the terrible things he’s said about you, and how intimidating or awkward it will be to have to talk to or work with Cercei.

      None of this has actually happened to you. So you deal with the situation by choosing to tell yourself a different story.

      The new story is that Alex is just some pathetic dirtbag you knew years ago. Apparently he now has a partner who works at your company, (sucks to be her, I guess) and he vaguely remembered your name.

      Neither he nor Cercei give a crap about who you were or what you were like in college. And when you work with Cercei, it will be exactly like working with anyone else who knows someone you have met before – no big deal.

      And if she turns out to be a dirtbag too? Well, that’s unfortunate for her.

      You may feel like this story isn’t very believable right now, but it is exactly as true as the other, upsetting one. If you tell yourself the comfortable one more often than the upsetting version, you will feel much better going into the situation, and be more able to deal with whatever the reality turns out to be.

  214. Cheshire Cat*

    I’m guessing that at least a few AAM readers use US-based specialty pharmacies. I do, and I cannot stand the one that, up until now, has been the only one designated in-network by my insurance co. There are multiple layers of red tape around getting every monthly refill — so much so that on occasion I’ve had to skip doses, or cut back on dosage for a couple days. I have a case manager now, & he’s able to cut through the b.s. and get my prescription on time. But I’m not supposed to call him every month … this pharmacy is *very* bureaucratic.

    At any rate, I just received a letter from my insurance co. that they are adding two more specialty pharmacies to the in-network list, and I am overjoyed! But before I switch, I’d like to know if anyone here has experience with either one, & if you’d recommend it?

    The new pharmacies are Accredo & CVS Caremark. Thank you in advance!

        1. Cheshire Cat*

          There is an online pharmacy for regular meds, but I don’t use it &don’t remember which one it is.

    2. Kat in VA*

      If your scripts are anything to do with pain management, the pharmacy companies are making it incredibly difficult to get your prescription – as dosed and prescribed by an MD who presumably knows your situation better than the store – in an effort to crack down on all the responsible medication users who are dying of overdoses in their cars. /s

      /s = they’re not, it’s unfortunate heroin addicts getting hot shots of Fentanyl but somehow the folks who jump through all the hoops are the ones who are being made to suffer. /eyeroll/

      1. Cheshire Cat*

        True enough. It’s not a pain med, though, it’s something I will always have to take, and they insist on calling my doctor Every.Month. to ask if he knows that it has x effect. Yes, I think he knows that …

  215. Lucina*

    When is it appropriate to let references know about possible reference checks? I’ve always waited for the new job interviewer to tell me that they’re going to check references at the end of the interview, before I sent heads up emails to people on my reference list. But now, I’ve had job interviews where they just ask me to list references on the application (and then don’t mention if they’re going to check them) or during the initial information intake and I’m never told directly about when HR/interviewer will call my references… Should I just email my references if I get an interview for a specific position? Or email them for every position I apply to (where the intake form requires I list references)? I’m assuming only strong candidates will have references checked so I’m always confused about the mixed messages I might get and whether my references will be checked later or not.

  216. Gene Parmesan*

    I would LOVE to hear anyone’s thoughts about my salary negotiation question. IDK if I’m way off-base here. I’m just going to come right out and be explicit on numbers.

    I am currently employed in a specialized niche field in higher education making $72K. Although I love my job, I don’t love my commute, so I’ve been casually job searching for a year or so for something closer to my house. My friend/former colleague emailed me about a job opening at her organization, encouraging me to apply. The job is closely related to my background and current position, and my friend said they were hoping to find someone with X high-level technical skill, which I have, and that they’ve been having trouble finding qualified candidates. This friend knows my current salary.

    I applied, the interview went really well, and I clearly meet or exceed the education/experience they are looking for. At some point, I was provided with a job description stating that the salary range was $54-60K. This is lower than what I’m willing to accept. I would be willing to meet somewhere in the middle (say $65K) due to the better commute and better retirement benefits. According to my research on sites like Glassdoor, the market rate for this type of job in our region would be in the $65-70K range (so my current $72K is on the generous end, but the retirement benefits at the current place are not good and have been recently cut, so I feel like the high pay sorta makes up for that).

    I just got the offer yesterday, and they are offering near the bottom of that range ($55K). I kind of assumed I would be offered $60K right off the bat and use that as a starting point for negotiation. Especially given my background in X skill, their difficulty in attracting candidates, etc. I’m kinda bummed out because I feel like this is a lowball offer. I guess I will try to negotiate, but I’m not feeling very optimistic because the distance between $55K and $65K feels a lot farther than negotiating up from $60K. I am willing to walk away, because I won’t take that big of a pay cut, so I guess there’s nothing to lose in trying.

    2. Darren*

      Given you definitely aren’t willing to accept much less than $65K if anything at all you probably should consider mentioning that as part of your discussion on the salary. Explain how you came to the number, your current salary, your acceptance that you would have to take a bit of a hit but that fundamentally it wouldn’t make sense for you to take this position at that kind of salary and it would have to be around $65K at the bottom end.

      You can be clear you know this is a big step up from their offer, but explain why you think you are worth the extra 10K (the hard to fill position, and the hard to find technical skill).

      Given you are willing to walk away you hold significantly more of the cards than most people during negotiation (where they want to try to get more money but aren’t willing to risk losing the offer over it). As a result you can be a lot more upfront with your conditions.

  217. Kristi*

    Does anyone know what it means when a title is “business partner”? I’ve seen it like “HR Business Partner” for example. Is that like director? Or consultant?

        1. Sam Foster*

          It means that you are a partner between divisions/groups/whatever that company calls it. You are an HR person either working with a specific business unit or you are an employee of a business unit performing a business function.

  218. Valentine Michael Smith*

    Just want to see what the prevailing feeling is: if you’re expected to do work from home as a FT exempt manager, should your workplace provide the equipment to do so? For example, staff hours need to be approved on Monday morning, whether I’m in the office or not. My company should give me a laptop or computer to perform this task, right?

  219. Purrsnikitty*

    I’ve seen quite a few posts about weird interview questions, with the conclusion being “these people don’t know how to interview”. Now, as a candidate, what should one do when faced with similar questions? Now that I know they’re silly questions, I would have a hard time not pointing it out, and I would rather not even answer the silliest ones since they add no true value to the process.

    Yet, not answering would certainly not go well with the interviewer (for them, it’s probably a very pertinent question after all!) And there’s always the off chance that only that HR person is weird? What would be a reasonable approach to the whole situation?

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