open thread – April 26-27, 2019

by Alison Green on April 26, 2019

It’s the Friday open thread! The comment section on this post is open for discussion with other readers on anything work-related that you want to talk about. If you want an answer from me, emailing me is still your best bet*, but this is a chance to talk to other readers.

* If you submitted a question to me recently, please don’t repost it here, as it may be in the to-be-answered queue.

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  1. Rulesfor*

    I’m in the process of interviewing for jobs right now, and I’m worried about my references. I haven’t told my current workplace that I’m looking yet, so I can’t use my supervisor, and unfortunately, my previous reference is from another program in the same agency, and they do talk. Those are my two best professional references. I can use coworkers, but if they want a supervisor, they’ll have to go four years back and into internships, which doesn’t seem helpful. What should I do?

    1. LaDeeDa*

      Can you ask the reference to be please not let anyone know, as you haven’t shared this with your boss? References should know that’s how it works, I am always shocked when people report that a reference blabbed.

      I have a former peer on my reference list- and asked them to talk about my innovation, how I was as a team player. Companies may ask for a supervisor, but they would learn a lot from asking peers!

      I would be honest with the recruiter/hiring manager and tell them that you haven’t shared your job hunt with your current manager, and that other than the two you had mentioned the next one would be from 4 yrs ago. Hopefully, they understand, if someone is less than 10 years into their career or who have only worked a couple of places they won’t have many references.

      Good luck on your interview!!

      1. Rulesfor*

        Thank you! Unfortunately, from wast I know of my previous supervisor and this agency as a whole, it would absolutely get back to my current supervisor. I’ll do what I can with that in play!

        1. Not A Mage*

          Is there anyone from one of your previous jobs that was in a management/supervisor position, that would be willing to give you a reference? Someone thought well of you? Even if they weren’t technically your boss? Anyone that you took instructions from?

      2. Call me St. Vincent*

        I had this situation and told them that I would give my references at the offer stage and that the offer could be contingent.

    2. CupcakeCounter*

      Same boat here! Been at current job 6 1/2 years and they don’t know I’m looking. My 2 levels up boss left our company about 1 1/2 years ago so in theory I could use him but he was promoted to one of our sister companies so technically he still works for the same larger corp and I wouldn’t feel comfortable using him. Plus the only way I could get a hold of him is by using his company contact info (he hasn’t responded to LinkedIn messages). Boss at OldJob retired so my contact info for him is no good and he hasn’t updated LinkedIn sine he left 6 years ago.

    3. Anonymous Educator*

      Honestly, I would go with two co-workers you trust and then the supervisor from four years back. Four years ago isn’t that long ago. Sure, it’s not ideal, but it can work.

      1. AdAgencyChick*

        100% this, especially since you’ve said the same-agency references would definitely talk to your boss.

      2. Luisa*

        I’m currently in the same boat and this is what I did. (First interviews of the job search are next week, so we’ll see how it all pans out.)

    4. theletter*

      the last time I had to give references, I was in a little bit of a pinch, so I asked the choir director that I had been singing with for the past 10+ years. Not ideal but it worked.

      1. ectotherm*

        Also in a similar boat – I’ve been at my current job in my current position for over twenty years and the only supervisor I’ve had is the owner of the company. The culture here is such that the handful of senior (peer) coworkers who could even somewhat speak to my work would also rat me out to the boss in a heartbeat which would almost certainly lead to my immediate firing.

    5. C*

      I sympathize. I’ve been with my company for 16+ years and my most recent 5-ish years of supervisors are still with the company. And aren’t the best work references because they didn’t really understand what I did. I asked the most recent manager who is no longer with the company (still 6 or so years ago), a current coworker on another team who really is in the best position to judge my work, and a former project manager I worked with on a couple projects for 2+ years.

    6. DataGirl*

      One of my references is from my volunteer work with Girl Scouts- a previous co-leader of our troop. Probably not ideal based on the advice I’ve read on this site but I don’t have many choices and she can speak to my leadership and organizational skills.

      1. MsChaos*

        Being a GS leader always made a big impact on anyone I interviewed with, so don’t leave it off. It was even better when I started training adults to be leaders and supervised scout-led events that were requirements for older girls trying to qualify for certain achievement levels. Not only are you held to a high standard of conduct in that organization, the stated goals are super clear and the org is highly data-driven and results oriented, so it’s highly respected (in general).

    7. Public Sector Manager*

      There is no problem with telling a prospective employer that you will give references when they are ready to make you a job offer. We just finished hiring for our agency and had 4 candidates out of 12 ask that we not contact their current supervisor or references at their current agency unless we were going to extend a job offer. It’s a normal part of business and good employers will be respectful of a candidate not wanting to disclose a job hunt unless there is a serious offer on the table.

      I had the reverse situation recently too. I was looking to make a move to another agency and they wanted all my references in advance (supervisor, peers, and team members) with the application. This agency was using a recruiter. I applied and included an attachment for the recruiter that references would be provided at the time of the hiring interview or job offer. The recruiter didn’t even bat an eye at my request. It didn’t impact my ability to get a phone screening interview or a hiring interview. Unfortunately, a family emergency caused me to withdraw my application.

      But I wouldn’t be worried about not listing references from the beginning. In fact, I would consider it a red flag if a prospective employer insisted on all your recommendations before even showing their hand of whether they want to make you an offer (or were seriously contemplating it).

  2. AnonymooToday*

    Advice please!
    Our HR liaision is being very inappropriate. I applied for my managers’ position, and I knew it was a long shot since my manager never gave me feedback on things that will keep me from advancing, but I still wanted the shot. I interviewed for it, not my best interview because it was first internal one.

    This week our HR liasion came to me twice, the first time was all about the leadership courses I should take through our online system, while I’m thinking, does this mean I got the position (it’s management), then in the next breath how I really need to get an intern, and going on about that. Which means I guess I didn’t get it because I wouldn’t need an intern if I was going to be managing a small team.

    Today they came in, and wanted to give me “motherly” advice and I should apply for every job opening there this here (this was literally the only other job here I would want), and then come tell them and they can help me prepare for the interview. And you know, they want to tell me something but they can’t. So 99% certain I did not get the job now.

    I really don’t appreciate finding out this way or their “help” (Heck, I just turned down a tenure track position, I know how to interview, just had an off one). I’ll be bringing it up when I get my “official” rejection, hopefully from the hiring manager since we’re in the same department. But I feel like I should also report this to actual HR. It feels like a huge overstep and boundary violation. Does anyone else agree?

    And advice on how to do it, should I ask for a meeting with someone in HR or just email them about what happened?

    1. Sloan Kittering*

      TBH, I’m not sure what you would be reporting here. It sounds like you acknowledge that the interview didn’t go great, and I think they meant it kindly when they said they wanted to help you do better next time. They seem to be rooting for you and want to promote you, which is a good sign. I must be missing the subtext.

      1. TheTallestOneEver*

        Yeah, I’m struggling to find the problem here as well. It sounds like your HR liaison is trying to be your advocate here. The leadership courses not only provide you with training, but also help put you on management’s radar as someone who’s interested in advancement. Getting direct reports give you management experience with your current employer.

        1. Fortitude Jones*

          Yup, offering up the intern is the way to give OP the people management experience she probably lacks right now that puts her behind the other candidates for the position.

          1. AnonymooToday*

            I forgot to add, none of things they suggested are actually probably possible. We can’t just ask for interns where I work, that’s not how it works at all. And the leadership things they are suggesting are all day long courses for supervisors that you need permission for, which I’m not sure I would be able to get. Yes I know this is help, and not that I won’t look into them, but I’ve been here years longer than them, so 90% chance I can’t do any of them because of the culture of our place, and they should know that by now.

            1. Seeking Second Childhood*

              Maybe there’s an intern proposal you know nothing about, I’d take that offer seriously and ask how to implement it, since it’s new. Worst that can happen this person backpeddles and feels sheepish.

            2. only acting normal*

              Sounds more like you have a supervisor problem (won’t help you train for progression) than an HR person problem (encouraging you to get the experience to progress).
              You’ve been there years longer – are you 100% sure the culture is not slowly shifting? I’ve seen attitudes to this kind of progression/training thing shift back and fore where I work over the years – depends on the senior leadership of the day usually, though access to it is allowed or blocked by middle management.

              Or is it mainly that she telegraphed that you didn’t get the job, and really you should have heard that direct from the hiring manager?

            3. Memyselfandi*

              I think you are feeling the after-effects of a not great interview and the uncertainty of not knowing the full context of these comments. Once you know yes or no for the position and gained some distance you may see this very differently.

      2. Peachkins*

        I don’t see any problem with them offering assistance for next time, so I’m with you on that. I think another part of the OP’s issue, however, is the fact that no one has officially said whether or not OP got the job. OP is assuming at this point that they didn’t based on the fact that this help is being offered.

        The only thing I would consider telling HR is that I didn’t appreciate being given the advice they did when I still hadn’t been notified about whether or not I got the job for which I interviewed.

    2. Mediamaven*

      I’m confused. You had a not so good interview, which you acknowledge, and they’ve offered to help prep you for the next one. I’d take them up on it and give a gracious thank you! Am I missing something?

    3. facepalm*

      You acknowledge the role was a long shot but put the blame everywhere but on your poor interview (the manager’s fault for not giving you feedback, the fact that it was an internal interview and you hadn’t had one before). The HR liaison seems to be wanting to be genuinely helpful, offering you advice on a path to advancement (available online leadership courses, a possible intern for management experience). This reads as you feel the HR person is beneath you when in fact she’s trying to point out ways to earn the qualifications that could land you a management position. The entire tone in this comment is not that of someone I would want to manage other people, honestly.

    5. LaDeeDa*

      I am not really sure what has you bothered. You said you weren’t given feedback on what kind of development you would need to advance, and that you felt the position was a long shot. HR has given you some suggested development classes (I would take a look and see if they focus on where skill/area/competency or if they are general leadership), they’ve advised you to get an intern- which will give you an opportunity to use the new skills you are learning in the classes, and then will be able to speak to it in future opportunities- which they have offered to give you coaching on. That sounds like exactly what they should be doing for you!

      Was it their delivery, or that you feel like you should have officially been rejected first?

    6. WellRed*

      I’d be more inclined to let the hiring manager know about this. As in internal interviewee, you should have been told directly you didn’t get the job. Also, did the HR person actually use the word “motherly” cause that’s wrong on so many levels.

      1. AnonymooToday*

        Yes they did.
        I should’ve provided more context. Yes I know they are just trying to help, but I don’t even know if this person is involved in the hiring process. There’s been problems with other people and discretion, I no longer respond to their “just jokes”. Maybe if I didn’t already have a negative view of this person as an HR professional I’d be more receptive. I work in government, there are very defined rules around hiring, and especially internal candidates. I didn’t appreciate being told I didn’t get the job from this person, internal candidates are told by the hiring manager, who has been my manager for the last four months and would’ve handled it better. If I had been putting all my cards on this job, I would’ve been devastated, and I know the manager would’ve delivered it better.
        If they wanted to help, they should’ve waited until after I was told, it was inappropriate that they inserted themselves into the process when they aren’t involved in these parts. As someone else said it who knows them, they wanted to feel like the hero, and that is very much like what it felt like. It wasn’t a back and forth about my career, it was telling me what to do like a juvenile, without asking me anything about my career. I just feel disrespected by the entire thing. I know on paper it doesn’t sound like it, but I promise it was inappropriate.

        1. Arctic*

          Even with that being the case what outcome do you want from reporting this? This person isn’t going to be fired or reprimanded for providing advice.

          1. Escapee from Corporate Management*

            AnonymooToday, I understand your disappointment over not getting the job and your frustration over the hiring manager not informing you directly. However, this does justify your complaints about the person who is HELPING you. This HR person is actively working to (1) develop your leadership skills, (2) give you personnel management experience, and (3) assist you in interview preparation. To any reasonable third party, you should be thanking this person.

        2. LaDeeDa*

          Is the official process that the hiring manager notifies the person? Because usually, it is HR or recruiting that does it. At any rate, I would examine what you hope to get out of complaining. I would also pause for a second and think about why the HR person had that conversation with you, is there a possibility that the hiring manager asked them to give you this feedback and to help with defining some development opportunities?

        3. Lily in NYC*

          I really think you need to let this go and not report it. Considering that most of us here don’t think they acted with malicious intent, I think complaining about it will only backfire on you. Also, from some of your responses here, it’s clear you are complaining about them to other coworkers, which is not great.

        4. The Rafters*

          I work in gov too; lack of discretion and confidentiality in the hiring process is a BIG DEAL here on everyone’s part. HR is in on everything we do, but does not notify anyone if they are hired or rejected. The lead person who conducts each interview signs / sends rejection letters. I likely wouldn’t report it HR person, especially because you said yourself the interview didn’t go well. It might come across as sour grapes and you may use points you don’t want to lose. But I would probably speak with the HR person directly and tell them that the timing of what they did was not okay.

          1. kittymommy*

            Interesting. I also work in government and the only ones that do the notification for any candidate or any job is HR. The guiding force is to put all candidates whether internal or external on the same playing field and no candidate gets different treatment than the others.

        5. Qwerty*

          Sounds like there’s a communication problem with the hiring manager. The hiring manager hasn’t been giving you the feedback that you need to advance your career and hasn’t given you the feedback/result of your interview. Starting to sound like a pattern and my read is that your manager was probably supposed to have already talked to you about this. HR person saw that your manager was failing you and tried to give you the feedback that you should have been getting all along. I’ve lost count of the number of times that I’ve seen major communication fails between hiring managers and HR, so there’s a good chance she thought you already knew. Or maybe you are still in the running but this process is taking a long time so she thought you’d continue applying to internal positions in the mean time.

        6. CM*

          You know it was a long shot, but you were hoping it would work, which is natural. It sounds to me like you’re disappointed that you didn’t get the job and maybe feel like they’re rubbing salt in the wound by being condescending, or acting like they feel sorry for you, or treating you like you did so completely terribly that you need extra help. You would have preferred that it had been a more businesslike transaction where they told you directly that the answer was no without throwing in what feels like pity.

          One option is to pretend it doesn’t bother you by accepting the offer of help, saying thanks or whatever and letting it go. That way, you’re showing you’re tough enough to weather someone else’s misplaced pity without letting it hurt your ego.

          Another option is to say to this person, in the moment, “It sounds like I didn’t get the job from what you’re saying. To be honest with you, I would have felt better receiving a formal rejection than just finding out casually like this. Now I feel kind of awkward.” That’s gently letting the know that it’s not doing you a favour to approach it this way, even if they have good intentions.

      2. Peachkins*

        This isn’t a bad idea. Give them a heads up that HR is going to people with advice for their next interview before they’ve received official notification about the job.

    7. ATX Language Learner*

      I agree with everyone else. Perhaps accept the help they are offering? Sounds like they are genuinely wanting to help and offer you a chance to advance in the future.

    8. Akcipitrokulo*

      I’m not sure if I’m missing something here? What she’s doing sounds reasonable, and arguably part of an HR role to help employees develop and progress (depending on company).

      Assume the best intentions, and take advantage of any assistance that will help next time (if, indeed, you haven’t been successful).

    9. Kalros, the mother of all thresher maws*

      Make sure that whatever you do, you’re not doing out of a bruised ego. It’s patronizing, but not a boundary violation as you’ve described it here. Careful not to ring a bell you can’t unring by reaching out to HR while feelings are raw.

      1. Kalros, the mother of all thresher maws*

        It may or may not actually be patronizing, actually – it sounds like the person was trying to offer meaningful advice.

        1. Kalros, the mother of all thresher maws*

          And to reply to myself again, by “ring a bell you can’t unring,” I mean in terms of your own reputation and perceived professionalism. Protect that and make sure you’re not shooting yourself in the foot.

          1. AnonymooToday*

            Thanks, definite sound advice I’ve given to others. I probably won’t end up telling HR, but definitely telling the hiring manager.

            1. Fortitude Jones*

              Yes, I think expressing your concern to the hiring manager is probably the safer bet given your feelings toward this particular HR rep. And you probably want to wait to have the conversation until you’re less upset so that your manager doesn’t misinterpret what you say as being hostile – that can sink you down the line.

            2. Jadelyn*

              Again, though, I’d like to ask – what exactly are you going to tell the hiring manager?

              Because literally the only thing I can see in this situation that is even the slightest bit out of kilter is the fact that the hiring manager hadn’t already told you whether or not you got the job BEFORE the HR rep came to talk to you. So if you’re mentioning that to the hiring manager, sure – but even if you’re complaining about the HR rep slightly bungling an attempt to be helpful to someone outside of HR, you’re still complaining about something that there’s really no reason to complain about.

              Said with all good intent, and I add that because it can be hard to tell tone via text – but it honestly sounds to me more like you’re feeling kind of raw because you had a less than stellar interview and probably missed out on something you wanted, and you’re sort of lashing out because of it.

              1. Kalros, the mother of all thresher maws*

                I actually disagree here – the hiring manager has standing to know if insider info is being shared before the process is finalized. That could easily put the hiring manager in an awkward spot if they change their mind, etc.

                1. Jadelyn*

                  On the other hand, the HR rep (unless I missed this in my reading of the OP) didn’t actually tell OP that they did or didn’t get the job. OP got the sense that this was some kind of “hinting” that they hadn’t gotten the job, but no “insider info” was actually shared.

                  Even so, to me, this still falls under the “was not executed perfectly, but still very normal and reasonable overall”.

                2. Kalros, the mother of all thresher maws*

                  If someone went to an internal applicant for one of my positions to tell them “you know, I want to tell you something but I can’t,” after telling the candidate to let them know when they’d applied to other jobs, I’d be pissed. You only say something like that when you know you’re speaking out of school.

            3. Kalros, the mother of all thresher maws*

              That’s a good plan, especially because of this bit here: “And you know, they want to tell me something but they can’t.” If I read your comment correctly, the person was insinuating that they know you didn’t get the job? I agree that that’s 110% something to dispassionately mention to the hiring manager because that was theirs to share with you, not HR’s. Who knows what other inside baseball this person is sharing with candidates.

              For what it’s worth, this would piss me off, too, so I don’t think you’re off base to be annoyed by these interactions – you just don’t want to make your irritation a matter of official record until and unless you’re sure something could be accomplished that way.

              1. T. Boone Pickens*

                Is there a chance that hiring manager and HR rep got their wires crossed/hiring manager forgot for when they were supposed to communicate with you? For example, hiring manager was supposed to tell you on Monday and HR rep was supposed to pop over on Tuesday to help ‘pump you back up’?

                1. Kalros, the mother of all thresher maws*

                  I guess, but I’m pretty sure “[a]nd you know, they want to tell me something but they can’t” means the person knows they’re acting on confidential information.

            4. Jaydee*

              It sounds like this is not the first time this HR person has done some unusual things, and while they aren’t outrageous, they do strike me as odd. I think going to the hiring manager now, before you know the outcome, is the best bet. But keep it very low key. Say something like, “I just wanted to let you know I had a couple of strange interactions with Sansa from HR and I wasn’t sure how to interpret them. [Insert descriptions of no more than a couple sentences – basically what you described in your original post]. I was surprised by this because I just had my interview and I was under the impression that any updates on that process would come through you, so her comments were unexpected and I felt like maybe you should know.”

              I think the goal is to convey that these conversations seemed odd, you’re not sure what to make of them, you’re not really trying to interpret them one way or the other (even if you are), but you feel like the hiring manager should know and would be in a better position to do or not do something in response.

    10. kittymommy*

      I’m as confused as others. I mean I don’t like the use of the word “motherly” but everything else seems like HR related tasks. At least where I’m at these are all thing that they would do. Likewise, even employees that aren’t managers/leadership are encouraged to take the online leadership courses (if they want) for their future growth with the organization. Honestly,. it sounds like they are trying to help you get this or a future promotion.

    11. Arctic*

      It seems like she’s trying to be helpful here. Advising you to take leadership courses and get management experience by managing an intern. And offering to help interview is huge. It’s not like it’s a career services. You would be getting interview tips from someone who has a really good idea of what the Hiring Manger is actually looking for.
      I think you would alienate someone who is in your corner here by reporting them.

    12. Jadelyn*

      What’s the boundary violation here? Genuinely asking. It’s entirely reasonable for someone in HR to know the outcome of internal interviews and potential hires, and to reach out to someone internal who is clearly interested in advancement with guidance and offers of training/help/resources so that the person can be a more competitive candidate next time. In fact, that’s a thing that *good* employers and HR will do, making sure that their staff have support in moving forward in their careers.

      It sounds like maybe it was awkwardly done, but I really don’t see where there was any boundary violation.

    13. LKW*

      You don’t know that what they want to tell you is that you didn’t get the job -that’s your assumption. The HR person could be telling you that there better opportunities – and that’s why you should apply – that the department is going to get reorged – and that’s why you should apply to other roles -that someone thought you’d make a great management trainee in another department -and that’s why you should apply.

      You’ve decided this person is behaving unprofessionally – but you’ve given no evidence other than “they should know how things work”. Maybe they know how to actually get things to work (like getting an intern or professional development) and you’re just in a shitty department.

    14. Not So NewReader*

      It sounds like this one HR person is the concern. Can you talk to anyone else in HR to see if they think the advice of this HR person is solid?
      I could be mis-reading. But if I am getting this right, I think I would ask why I was told to take management courses when I am not yet in management.

      Generally speaking, I have noticed a reluctance (understandable, though) for people to take courses. But it’s not an insult to be told to do this or that to beef up some advantages later on. Try to separate the message from the delivery person. If anyone else had said this to you, how would you react? What would be your next layer of questions?
      One thing I thought of to say, “Oh, the hiring manager usually tells people if they got the job or not. Are you saying, I did not get it this time?”
      I’d also want to know WHO sent her to talk to you and why. I would try to figure that out. Maybe I am cynical, but I tend to think that these conversations don’t happen in a vacuum. Someone, some where knows this is happening. Who would that person be?
      Conversely if NO one knows she spoke with you then this might mean that there is someone who would be very interested that she took it upon herself to have this conversation with you.
      I call this working it back- there is someone who sent her OR there is someone concerned that she is acting on her own. I’d try to figure out who that someone is.

      I don’t think you have to report her. It sounds like your company has a procedure where the hiring manager notifies people of their status? If that is the case then she has stepped on toes. She should not be cuing you in that you did not get the job this time. That fact stands on its own. In the process of finding out your status you can mention that Jane let you know you probably did not get the job. Then let those chips fall where they may.

      1. ArtK*

        Waiting until you’re *in* management to take management training is not a great idea. Much better to prepare for the job that you want, rather than getting the job (maybe) and *then* preparing.

    15. learnedthehardway*

      Honestly, in your shoes, I would be grateful for the support and assistance of the HR Manager. They may not be able to tell you where your candidacy is at, yet, but they’ve given you concrete steps to take to get to where you want to go.

      You already know you didn’t do your best job in the interview and that you were a stretch candidate, at best, so I don’t see why you’re offended. The HR person may even believe you were already formally rejected for the role – sometimes, miscommunications happen – and is trying to HELP you.

    16. disagree with most comments*

      I disagree with most of the other commentators. I would also find this “hlep” annoying and patronizing. Especially since in some of comments, it seems like this HR liaison is NOT involved in the hiring. If they came to you AFTER you had been rejected and offered actual help that’d be one thing. To me this reads as they found out BEFORE YOU that you were going to be rejected and they wanted to “let you down easy” (which side note I HATE that phrase), and offer “advice”. I would probably let the hiring manager that it seems like this person is inserting themselves where they shouldn’t. You said you work in government and I guarantee this person has likely done this kind of thing before and been reprimanded for it. Hence the weird hinting around with you.

      1. valentine*

        It could be the liaison is just being weird, especially with the “motherly” nonsense. They may just have Thoughts and Feelings about the prospective promotion. Ride it out. Don’t act on anything they said. Reassess when you get the news.

    17. Darren*

      The first two bits seem pretty standard from HR wanting to encourage internal development, mentoring other people/managing one or more interns both help build a lot of the experience you need for a management role and you can do both of those while still in an individual contributor position. Similarly internal leadership courses would be another solid recommendation if they are available you definitely should be taking them prior to transitioning into a management position (in fact you should have already done them before applying unless you didn’t know about them).

      The second time they came by really sounds like they might be getting a little overly helpful but in general the intentions are good. You did badly at an internal interview since it was your first one, suggestions for doing more of them if there is anything else you want to do, and offering to help you prepare for an internal interview so you know what you need to be doing for next time. Even if there is nothing interesting in alternative roles I’d take them up on the advice on how to prepare in future.

    18. ArtK*

      Your upset is misplaced. I don’t think that the HR person was inappropriate at all. Your boss isn’t preparing you for the next step and HR is trying to coach you into that. It’s not as personal as what a manager *should* be doing, because HR doesn’t know you personally. Taking personal offense isn’t helping you here.

      Leadership classes and managing an intern are exactly the kind of thing you should be doing to prepare for a management position.

  3. career switch?*

    I’d appreciate any opinions on a possible career switch – from accounting to teaching high school (there’s currently a job opening that I’d most likely qualify for).

    I’ve been getting increasingly frustrated with my current work situation and have considered teaching for some time. I enjoy teaching (have only done it at the elementary level in a small setting in the past – not public school) and am passionate about this particular subject. The situation at work seems hopeless – had the same issues about a year ago, spoke to grandboss, things improved for a time yet, alas, here we are again.

    The pros of switching : shorter commute (5 min vs 55 min) and a schedule that more closely matches that of my (school-aged) children’s.>>This is a significant factor in my decision. I’m not willing to sacrifice time with my kids for a job that makes me miserable.

    The biggest con is pay cut – the starting salary is 35% less than my current salary (doable for my family, given a few adjustments, but still significant).

    I’m worried that my eagerness to leave the current situation is causing me to view teaching through rose-colored glasses.

    Can anyone provide some insight into teaching that’ll help as I consider a possible switch? Thanks in advance!

    1. Ruth (UK)*

      I’m in the UK so if you’re in the US or elsewhere, it may be quite a different profession… my dad was a teacher (highschool English) for almost his entire career and… I basically never saw him. If he wasn’t at the school, he was marking, lesson planning, etc – or running after school clubs, or detentions, or extra study classes for exams. Of note, he was head of department though as well. He retired a few years ago. I did my degree in English and briefly considered teaching. My dad said that 10 or 15 years ago he would have said it’s a great profession but with the way it is now he “wouldn’t touch it with a barge pole”.

      Class sizes are growing, with number of support staff shrinking. Schools are notoriously underfunded and it’s not uncommon for teachers to buy materials/equipment they need out of pocket.

      The people I know who went into teaching in recent years mostly quit within a few years, partly because of the high stress and long hours (etc) and have ended up in more general office/etc jobs and happier for it.

      Of note, this is based on the UK school system and in state schools. I imagine it is quite different for private schools, and may be different in different locations/countries. But at least from the side of teaching I’ve seen, it doesn’t seem to be one for a good work/life balance.

      1. curly sue*

        A close friend of mine teaches in the private system in the UK and their descriptions of their workload is very similar — very long days, little support, high pressure, and working through weekends just to keep up.

      2. career switch?*

        Still reading through the comments but just want to thank everyone for their insight – you’ve definitely given me a lot to think about. One thing I think we can all agree on is that teachers are severely underpaid and deserve more! The salary issue is less about how “high” my current salary is and more about how underpaid teachers are. Thanks again!

    2. Emmie*

      If you’ve dreamed of teaching for some time, I recommend trying for this position. You do not need to make a choice about whether you would take the job. You just need to choose to apply. Choose to interview if you are called for it. Depending upon your area, teaching jobs may be hard to obtain, and you may need to apply for multiple positions before you are offered one.
      Do you have the required certification for the position? If not, get it. Some Career and Technical Educational (CTE) positions and certifications are designed exactly for people like you – people who have a professional career.
      There’s a larger conversation happening now regarding certifications in the states, and particularly about CTE / attracting professionals to positions. This gives you an opportunity, if you’re interested, to be on the forefront of this movement.
      You could benefit from asking yourself what specifically about teaching appeals to you, and what about your current job you despise. Teaching kids is hard work, but so is being miserable at your job. Good luck whatever you decide!

      1. Snarktini*

        “You only have to make one choice at a time” is great advice. I almost always forget this, and find myself not taking small exploratory steps because I’m thinking too far ahead to the final outcome. It’s only one choice, and making it doesn’t commit you to any permanent course of action.

        1. Emmie*

          I like the way you phrased that! You’re right about committing to a permanent course of action. Even taking an accepted job isn’t permanent.

    3. Minerva McGonagall*

      Are you certified to teach that particular area/subject? You mention that you’ve taught elementary school before, but often you need a different certification to teach high school. Public schools, funded by the state, will require you to be certified in that area you’re hired to teach in. There are some ways around that (emergency cert, some states will allow those with bachelors degrees to sub), so please check with your state’s DOE if you don’t have the certification listed in the job requirement.

      Think also about the additional benefits you’ll get-state retirement plans for teachers are (in my state in the northeast) highly enviable. You’ll get to match your kids’ school schedules. If there’s snow, you’ll get a snow day/delay/etc. You’ll be “off” in summer-that’s in quotes because you’ll likely have things to complete over the summer, whether it’s professional development, new plans, etc.

      Also consider the potential for out of school work. My husband is a teacher and spends a significant amount of time outside of school on emails to parents, planning lessons, preparing for events, participating in school/union/community events.

      1. NotAnotherManager!*

        It’s worth looking, but our CC system uses a lot of adjunct instructors, which doesn’t provide full-time employment.

      2. A Teacher*

        I’m an adjunct as well as a CTE teacher. Our junior college relies heavily on adjuncts as well and the pay is okay but not what I can support myself on.

    5. Anastasia Beaverhousen*

      While I’m not a teacher, I have several friends who are, and… the hours are brutal. As well as the not-great salary, it’s also normal and expected that you’ll end up buying some amount of classroom supplies out-of-pocket. And at the high school level, you’ll have challenges that aren’t present in elementary school (having to enforce dress code; very angry parents; high pressure extra-curriculars; teenagers in general; etc.). It can also be a lot harder to get a teaching job than you think; depends on where you are, but, often the unions are pretty strong, and if you’re not already in the union it can be hard to get hired.

      I’m not saying don’t do it, just, go in with your eyes open.

      1. Hope*

        Former teacher here, and I’m seconding all of this. Teaching is great, but even if you have a great passion for it, the odds of burnout are EXTREMELY high. I only lasted a few years. I still loved teaching, but it’s incredibly demanding of your time and there is so much to being a teacher that *isn’t* teaching. You will be working more hours. You won’t be able to leave for lunch (odds are you will be working/monitoring students during your lunch, so it won’t even be a break), you will not be able to even take a bathroom break when you want, and you will likely need a doctor’s note whenever you’re out sick. High school teachers also usually have to be adviser to *at least* one club or sport, and there are going to be other responsibilities that are expected of you on top of that; one year, I had morning bus duty; another, I had ticket sales duty for various sports games (which meant I was there until halftime of all of those games, forfeiting my evenings).

        Also, if you’re in the US and haven’t explicitly studied education and obtained a teaching license, you likely aren’t certified to teach. There are provisional certifications, but those are based on if the school needs a position filled that they can’t otherwise fill, AND you still have to go through the work/classes to get certified within 2-3 years–which you’ll have to do while teaching. And once you get that certification, you’ll spend your “summers off” working to take classes that will keep your certification current. Classes that you’ll almost always have to pay for yourself.

        I don’t want to discourage you, but if you’re already balking at the salary cut and don’t want to give up time with your kids…teaching is not going to be better than your current job.

        1. Parenthetically*

          The certification varies so widely state to state and even district to district, though, that I wouldn’t personally want to give advice one way or another apart from “check to make sure you’re classroom-ready.”

          For instance, my district growing up accepted masters-level degrees and higher in lieu of a teaching degree, teacher certification, or licensure, which is how I ended up with THE MOST SHITE English teacher EVER my senior year. The county where I currently live requires in-state certification (which is onerous) on top of a degree in the specialist sub-field of education you’re desiring to teach in — and then once you start teaching you have a limited number of years to obtain a masters in your field. It’s bananas.

        2. Junior High Teacher*

          My hours are 7:15-3:15. During the track/NAL season (both of which I coach) I get done at 4:00 on practice days. My kids get done at 3:30. I am with my kids a TON more than if I worked 8-5! I really don’t know many teachers who work brutal hours.

          1. Anastasia Beaverhousen*

            Most of the teachers I know spend hours a day on lesson planning and marking, in addition to teaching and supervising extracurricular activities.

            1. Lily in NYC*

              That sounds more like high school teaching. I have a number of cousins and friends who teach elementary school, and I’m jealous of their hours. They don’t have to deal with after-school activities, nor do they work at all in the summer. The lowest-paid one makes over 90K. Not a bad gig.

              1. DataGirl*

                I’m guessing from your name you are in New York… in my midwestern state teaching jobs vary from about 20K (inner city) to 40K in the suburbs. My sister is a middle school teacher in a different midwestern state and makes about 55K because she has her Master’s plus her teaching certificate; she’s at the highest end of the pay scale.

                I looked into teaching, it would be easy enough to get the certifications required in my state, but ultimately I could not make the salary work. And I have heard so many horror stories from my sister about nightmare students (she was beat up once by a boy in her class) but nothing is done because the parents threaten to sue the district. It’s a pretty rough field.

                1. Lepidoptera*

                  I could tell horror stories for DAYS about violent students, since I live near some of the most poorly-rated districts in the NE. One of my colleagues had a chunk of flesh bitten out of her cheek by a student while trying to break up a gang fight in the cafeteria.

                2. Junior High Teacher*

                  Lepidoptera, that is indeed a horrible story! I do feel lucky that I have been in really good schools, both charter and public, with supportive administrations and better-than-average parents. By which I mean they only rarely escalate to my principal and have never threatened to sue me, apparently!

              2. Kentucky*

                Kentucky here our average high school teacher salary starts at $30 -$35K. Your $90K is way above average

                1. Thursday Next*

                  90k isn’t starting salary, though—mid-50s is. Adjusting for COL, I think new teachers in Kentucky are probably doing better than new teachers here.

                2. Clisby*

                  Cost of living makes a huge difference. Maybe 15 years ago, my husband and I were talking about his nephew’s upcoming marriage (to a young woman who planned to be a public school teacher in a poor county in Ohio.) I said something like, “Well, that’ll be good for them – I know teachers don’t make much, but they get pretty good benefits.” My husband looked at me like I had grown a second head, and said, “Teaching is one of the best-paying jobs you can get in this county.” At that time, you could easily have bought a small-but-decent 2 or 3 bedroom house for $50,000 or less, so yeah – the entry-level teacher making around $22,000 a year was middle class from the start.

            2. Junior High Teacher*

              I spend my prep period (45 minutes a day) and my hour or so after school doing these things. However, I agree that the first two or three years was probably a bit more than that, since I didn’t have lesson plans from previous years to pull from AND I didn’t have kids, so I didn’t worry about putting in more hours.

          2. Managing*

            This. Maybe I’m not the best teacher ever, but I’m on my game for our school hours and attend evening events when I can bring my kid. I hate the culture of “I work so many hours outside of school”. Like, just don’t do that? If it isn’t possible to get all work done during the day, then either your administration needs to provide more time to get what they want or you need to work more efficiently.

    6. Lepidoptera*

      My family and friends are leaving teaching in droves (as did I). Bureaucracy, red tape, and standardized testing is making it very hard to actually teach these days. I’d suggest talking to nearby teachers who have no reason to lie to you (i.e., no one you’d report to) and get their candid take on your local districts.

      If you’re switching from accounting, would this be math teaching? Because if you’re looking for a shorter work day, you do not want to teach a language. They spend half the night grading.

      1. curly sue*

        Ditto for social sciences / humanities — all kinds of projects and term papers to be graded, and essay exams that are illegible half the time because students are writing quickly under stress.

    7. Anona*

      If you decide to switch, I’d recommend also having an exit plan just in case teaching isn’t for you.

      I taught for 3 years. It’s such a hard job. I was miserable. Classroom management (i.e. behavior problems) were the biggest challenge. I’m not sure how that would be for high school. If you’re able to before making the switch, could you take a day off or two, and substitute teach? Obviously it won’t be an exact match, but it might give you a better sense of the job. I also have another acquaintance who tried teaching this year. He left after 1 month. I think the stats are that less than 50% of people who start teaching stay for 5 years or more.

      But some people love it! If you do decide to try it, I definitely recommend doing whatever you need to do to make sure you still keep industry contacts/skills so just in case you decide to leave, you can.

      1. Gene Parmesan*

        The substitute teaching idea is not bad at all. Perhaps she could even stay in her own job and, depending on how generous their vacation policy is, use vacation days to test it out. (I’m speaking from my own perspective here, accumulating 1.75 vacation days per month and always having a bunch built up.) It’s not the same as having your own classroom, but would help test the waters and build relationships with schools that could lead into a job.

        I taught high school for 2 years and left because of the challenges. It’s been over 10 years and I’ve never regretted leaving.

      2. Policy Wonk*

        Agree with this. I thought about switching to teaching for many of the reasons the OP stated. Decided to try it out by teaching Sunday School at my church, to see if I liked teaching. A little over an hour a week actual teaching time, a smaller class than I would have in the local public schools, no homework to grade, and pretty well-behaved kids. I could not believe how exhausting it is!

        I recommend that you find some way to try this out before you leave your job, because I learned that I could not do this all day every day. Ten years in I am still at my government job, but I also still teach Sunday School because I like the interaction with the kids. Teachers are real unsung heroes!

    8. Reader*

      I obviously don’t know your background, but you you’ve taught in an elementary setting before. My question is whether or not that was a formal setting (i.e. going in everyday and teaching full days, lessons plans, etc.) or in an informal setting (i.e. subbing occasionally, helping out for a few hours hear and there, etc.)
      I ask this as someone who is currently in the midst of working on my Masters for a similar career change (marketing to elementary teaching), and spend a significant amount of time in both formal and informal settings right now.

      If it is the former, I think that you have the experience to understand what goes into teaching and are making an informed decision. There may be a bit of a rose-color glasses aspect, but not as much considering your past provides you with hands-on experience of what to expect.

      If it’s the latter, I think that you may want to really look into the amount of work it takes to become a full time teacher before making the decision. It’s not as easy as thinking “I’ll come up with a lesson on long division and hand out a worksheet.” Most lessons require pre-tests, post tests, exit tickets, etc. There is significantly more work than most people realize when it comes to being a full time teacher.

      So if your prior experience is more or less informal, I wouldn’t go in thinking “this is just going to be 8 hours a day of what I previously experienced.” Hope this helps a bit!

    9. urban teacher*

      As a long term special education teacher, I have taught in every level. High school teachers have huge paperwork demands, New teachers tend to have long hours because they aren’t able to know how to streamline yet. I found the salary to be fine. I’m switching careers and worry about making less than I am. Depending on administration, behavior can be an issue.
      Standardized testing has become overwhelming. In some states, kids take tests more than 6 times a year. Some states make pay attached to the tests.

      1. TL -*

        Yeah my friend is a high school math teacher and her first few years she was always taking grading and lesson plans home.

        Now she’s been teaching for 7 ish years and if she’s bringing stuff home it’s because she was not being efficient with her time (usually she was sick but every once in a great while she just had an unproductive week)

    10. Lucette Kensack*

      Cons to teaching: Almost entirely inflexible schedule, very limited sick time or days off (other than breaks scheduled by the school), physically demanding, very little authority beyond your classroom (that is, aside from a union if you have one, you’ll have very little ability to influence the overall practices of your school).

      (I’m only offering cons here because it sounds like you want to hear the bad side that you may be ignoring.)

    11. Former Retail Manager*

      My advice is don’t do it. I have a co-worker who did the same thing….left accounting to teach in public schools. She has been gone for 5 years now and has taught at all levels (elementary – high school). Guess what? She just applied to come back. Why? Because it’s a thankless job, with crap pay, crap benefits (in comparison to most accounting positions), and she worked more hours as a teacher than she ever did in accounting (we don’t have busy season — not public accounting). She is routinely working 50-55 hours a week, minimum. Mind you, some of that time is at home, so her kids can play on the floor while she grades papers, but she still isn’t actually spending time with them. Parents want to blame all of their child’s issues on her and the bureaucratic red tape in public schools might actually exceed that of Government. Her hands were really tied, even when trying to help underperforming students.

      She admitted that she expected to experience a great deal of personal fulfillment from the career change and said it never materialized, although she is glad that she gave it a try, so no regrets there. For what it’s worth, I know multiple teachers, not just my old co-worker, and they all feel similarly about the position. The only difference is that they cannot transition to another career because teaching is what their degree is in vs. accounting degree w/ alternate teacher cert. They all feel overworked, underpaid, unappreciated, and beat down by the modern public school system that values test scores more than actual teaching.

      If you really feel that you need to pursue this, then follow your heart I suppose, but please go in with your eyes wide open. Talk to current teachers at the school you’ll be teaching at to find out what it’s really like…..the pros AND the cons. Oh, and with all the teacher workdays, your summer vacay is really only about 5 weeks, at least in my area.

      1. Teacher*

        Agree 1000% Plus, during your summers you will be attending classes and prepping for the upcoming year. Be prepared to have your classroom set up ready to go only to be told one week before school starts that you will be in a different room on the other side of the campus and that you will be teaching something completely different from what you planned for. Nothing like that last minute rush to get ready for the upcoming year.

      2. Managing*

        By contrast, I work in a private school (for the same salary as public), work 35-40 hours a week most weeks (sometimes less), have my benefits fully paid for by the school (and have such low copays that my IVF, pregnancy, and baby delivery costs were $100 out of pocket total), have had zero behavior problems, and my vacations, weekends, maternity leave were all mine (no obligation to do anything work related). Teaching doesn’t have to be this awful job.

        1. Former Retail Manager*

          I have heard similar things from other private school teachers, but “the catch” if you will, is that in my area these positions pay about $15k- $20k a year less than public schools and they’re difficult to get because teachers rarely leave. And even then, I’ve heard that you really need to know someone/have an in. If there isn’t such a pay disparity in OP’s area, I would definitely look into private schools, although I’ve heard that they have their own challenges (helicopter parents, attempts to buy grades, easy access to drugs because the kids are wealthy, etc. — more so at the high school level, than the lower grades). Even with all the challenges though, I’ve still heard mostly positive about private in comparison to public which is mostly negative. Glad that you have found the heaven of teaching. :) Not having kids with behavioral issues is HUGE and seems to enable you to actually teach.

    12. Breakfast Cupcakes*

      Talk to a few teachers at the school (no new teachers must have been there more than 2 years) and ask what their hours and what they do look like, most people have no idea what a high school teacher has to do.

      -Know going in that the hours of school are not your hours, and the hours they set are also not including your planning hours and other needs (detention rounds, parent teacher conferences, after school help, extracurricular activity that you chaperone and usually lead these are all mandatory that you do but are not paid for). Also that you are working a lot of the break days so you will not be on the same off schedule as your kids, and teachers can not call in sick like other people you have to have a trained sub to call in. Vacations are limited to your schools break schedule.
      – That 35% pay cut will likely be much more because know that teachers cover out of their own pocket expenses that are not covered by the school (paper for printing, pens, pencils, calculators, room decorations, really anything after Christmas break teachers cover because the room expense is used up by then). You will also end up covering lunches and buying clothing for kids who forget their lunch money or don’t have adequate things.

    13. Parenthetically*

      It’s so hard to provide insight into “teaching” as a general principle, because so much of teaching depends on what state you’re in, what district you’re in, and even what school within that district you’re in!

      At the state level: how’s funding? Any recent strikes? Who are your senators/reps/governor? What’s their attitude toward school funding? Is that likely to change in the next few years? How’s the economy?

      At the district level: how’s teacher pay overall? Any hiring freezes or payscale freezes in recent years? How’s funding for extracurriculars that aren’t sports? Who’s on the board? Do they have an adversarial relationship with teachers and school administration? Do they talk a big game and then not back it up with concrete actions to support teachers?

      At the school level: who’s the principal? Does she have a good relationship with her staff? What’s the org structure and how does it work for grievances? What are the school’s disciplinary policies and philosophy — i.e. are we talking meditation rooms, on-staff counselors, restorative discipline? or zero-tolerance-policy expulsions/suspensions, “strictness,” punitive discipline? Is it a magnet school or similar? What are teacher schedules like day to day? Do they have ACTUAL planning periods or are those taken up with meetings? How many kids with IEPs/504s/SDIs are in an average class, and what resources and support staff would you have available for those kids? Do teachers there feel supported and backed up by administration? Are there mentors for new teachers?

      That’s honestly all off the top of my head. I’ve been teaching for over a decade and my mother retired last year after 40 years in the classroom. Obviously my instinct is to say “do it!” but there’s SO MUCH to consider.

      Best of luck!

      1. Luisa*

        This is an outstanding comment with so much good food for thought. OP, please take the time to look into these things!

      2. Teacher*

        About planning periods— the school I retired from cannot get subs. Thus, teachers spend their planning periods covering for absent teachers. Moral is incredibly low, discipline is nonexistent. This leads to a lot of stress and teachers calling in sick, which means that often, teachers do not get a planning period. And the cycle continues…

    14. Rainy days*

      I’m a former public school teacher; it’s a super hard job and was ultimately not for me. Many people leave after only a few years (I left after four). At the same time, many people find very fulfilling long-term careers in schools.

      Quite frankly, I think you are not asking enough questions yet; you don’t enough to know whether this could be for you.

      Some questions I would recommend asking others and yourself are:
      – How much do you like spending time with people? You won’t get a single minute of alone time at work. Some thrive on the constant interaction, but I’m pretty introverted so it exhausted me.

      – How much do you like forging your own path vs. being told what to do with clear guidelines? Certain subjects have textbooks and closely proscribed curricula; in others, you will be expected to create your entire curriculum from scratch. Very different types of people thrive in each situation.

      – How well do you withstand criticism and failure? Honestly, this is probably the most important requirement for being a teacher. You will not be able to create the perfect solution for every single student of the 150 you will teach each day, and you will constantly be criticized by parents and the media for it. You need to be okay with working hard and doing your best, but not solving every problem. Perfectionists need not apply.

      – School-specific: How supportive is the principle? How supportive are the teachers of each other? You can thrive for a lot longer when your boss and colleagues have your back.

      1. Humble Schoolmarm*

        This! You are absolutely right about tolerating criticism and failure (as well as chaos and ambiguity). With a lot of work, trial and error and reflection, you will probably find a teaching style that works for most students, but there will still be kids for whom it doesn’t. Unfortunately, the pressure to find that perfect solution is immense and you will have to find a way to balance not giving up on a kid (ever) with drawing boundaries that will keep you moving forward for the other 149 students who need you.

        You mentioned having passion for your subject area, which is great! That being said, you might want to reflect on whether your passion is also for making your subject area make sense for those who don’t like or understand it. Passion is great, but often people are passionate about a subject find it really self-evident, especially at the introductory levels and they don’t always see the areas that might cause legitimate struggle. There are few things worse than a teacher who says, by word or action, “but this is so easy!”

        Classroom management is a huge challenge. The least dramatic challenge is just getting a group of teens to listen quietly while you explain. Unfortunately, if you can’t get you class to that point, you can’t teach effectively (or at least without doing a pretty major switch to how you are presenting the material). There are also many more dramatic examples of management challenges that other posters have mentioned.

        Most parents I have worked with are lovely, but every year you will get the extremes of completely disengaged (umm, your child is in crisis here, please don’t ghost me or tell me it doesn’t matter), to scary snowplow. I had a parent my second year (they do tend to pick on the new teachers too!) who complained to the principal that sometimes while I was teaching I Clenched My Jaw and she could not possibly imagine what could happen in a grade 11 class that would make someone Clench Their Jaw!!!

        Last, the hours: I have to be in school between 8:20 and 3:25. Most days I actually leave at between 5 and 5:30. After 9 years, I don’t usually take things home, but at the start of my career I stayed to the same time and did 2-3 hours at home. Many of my colleagues with kids struggle a bit because they have to leave early enough to do childcare pick-up, so they lose planing and marking time there, but find it hard to get the work done at home and be attentive parents. As a side note to that, in teaching you are never, ever done. The challenge is accepting being done enough to keep your class moving.

    15. mirror universe you*

      I came here to post pretty much the opposite question – current teacher, considering a career change into accounting or some kind of auditing/compliance work.

      Teaching is exhausting. I’ve taught math and assorted technical electives at the middle and high school level for around a decade now. I’m mostly feeling overwhelmed by having to care about the problems of over 150 students a term, many of whom have difficulties in their lives that are far beyond “not getting the hang of this logarithm thing”.

      In my career, I’ve had to try to find ways for students in day treatment at the psych ward to keep up with their classes so they don’t “lose a year of math” while in intensive mental health treatment, I’ve had students who didn’t know where they were sleeping that night still show up and take exams, I’ve had students get so upset they lose the ability to speak and still try to keep asking their questions in writing because they know they need to get some math task done so they can graduate, I’ve had to comfort upset gay kids in the hallway on my prep period because they just learned that they couldn’t give blood by being rejected during a school blood drive, I’ve had to keep a class of students past the bell because some other kid not in my class went down the hallway punching out classroom windows and now there’s blood and glass on the floor of my classroom, and I’ve had a lot of students and parents tell me long stories about all of the times prior to my class when they couldn’t figure out some mathematical things and lost confidence, and had to convince them that they can do math and I will help them get there. I feel like my job is less to know math and more to be some kind of math-themed Care Bear. At the same time, I have frustrated students and parents of kids who are ready for more advanced work and want interesting challenge projects, but I don’t always have time to deal with finding good ones and talking to them about their questions because I have some other kid who’s trying to graduate and is still struggling with percentages.

      If you were always in the “accelerated” or “honors”” track classes as a kid, or went to a magnet school that picked the “good” kids from across the district, or went to a private school that didn’t take “difficult” kids, school as a general thing is very different than what you’re probably thinking about from your own experience.

      Also, trying to keep a classroom full of kids all pointed in the direction you have in mind is a skill that takes years to master and nothing you try your first year will work reliably. I recommend taking improv comedy classes.

      2. Archangels girl*

        I’m quitting after 18 years. Longer but identical trajectory. Hugs to you and all dedicated teachers out there. Hardest job I’ve ever done. Started teaching age 34. Before that was exec assistant at country’s largest university and will weep tears of joy and relief if I can get a crack at that again.

        But to the OP you’re right, it WAS nice to have same school breaks as my own kids although you will still need before and after care.

      3. Former Retail Manager*

        I am not a teacher, but know quite a few public school teachers, and they all have similar stories to yours and also find it emotionally exhausting, so many sympathies from me. I am in audit/compliance for a Government agency and have been here for 9 years (after going to school during my former retail manager career). I LOVE it. Don’t get me wrong, there are bad days, but they pale in comparison to what you’ve described above. If you work for the Govt, the bureaucratic red tape is still there, so that won’t be a big adjustment for you. What you choose to do will really dictate whether you work primarily independently or more as part of a team (at least for part of the time).

        Since you’ve been teaching for ten years, I assume you’re at least in your 30’s. Here’s my $0.02 for transitioning to accounting:
        — You’ll have to get a Bachelor’s of accounting, at a minimum, which is probably going to take you at least 2.5 years, assuming you go full time. Although there are online options, some of which are good, I don’t suggest them. Go to a traditional school. Also, if you can manage to get the 150 hours required by most states to sit for the CPA exam, I definitely would. CPA is the gold standard in accounting and basically ensures that you’ll always be able to get a job somewhere.
        — Do not try to work in public accounting. Although they likely wouldn’t want you because of your age (sorry, that is the harsh reality), it’s a brutal environment. During busy season (mid-January to mid-April) you are looking at 60-70 hour weeks minimum. There is a possibility that if you were hired in public accounting for audit, you may escape busy season, but many firms utilize an “all hands on deck” policy during that time and will have you working on tax stuff even if it’s not what you normally do. Also, in public accounting, they may hire you with a Bachelor’s, but you will have a set time limit to obtain your CPA certification (usually 2 years to take and pass all 4 parts).
        — After you start taking classes, be open to what you are and are not good at. You mention audit, but you may actually hate the class/work and be much better at financial accounting or tax. Be open to changing your path depending upon your skillset.
        — If you are able to (this may be a stretch) once you’ve finished a couple of semesters, look into potentially interning over the summer. Because of your teaching schedule this may not be possible, but consider small firms or even offices with only one or two CPA’s. The sooner you can get some hands-on experience you can list on your resume, the better off you’ll be, and it will also enable you to start getting a feel for the types of accounting you like best. (Note: At a small firm, you likely won’t get much exposure to audit because small firms typically don’t do audits…too much risk)

        Best of luck to you. And all the respect for the Herculean effort you seem to have put in, as do so many teachers, over the last 10 years.

    16. Maya Elena*

      If you’re going to be teaching math, be aware that – at least in the state where I went to school and my mom teaches – curricula and textbooks change every few years, usually not for the better; and the math you learned 15+ years ago (my guess) is much more sensible and recognizable as “algebra” and “geometry” than whatever versions of it are taught today. You might find that you’re going to be not so much teaching math and problem-solving as “facilitating differentiating learning”, “group work”, “social justice in math”, or whatever other curricular fad comes down the pipeline from above.

      1. Alternative Person*

        It’s the same in languages. The teaching fads drive me up the wall. There’s sometimes nuggets of usefulness buried in there but I swear some of the people who come up with this stuff haven’t been near a classroom in decades.

        1. That Girl From Quinn's House*

          My high school bought into one of these newfangled foreign language curricula when I was starting language classes. The new curricula said that vocabulary was more important than grammar, and taught grammar minimally. WELL, when we all got up to the AP level everyone barely passed, because it turns out grammar is actually important in language learning. They threw out the curriculum a few years after I graduated, but the damage was done.

      2. Polymer Phil*

        My old middle school had walls between classrooms that looked like office cubicle walls: fabric-covered modular panels. I found out later that a few years before my time, they had been through a failed experiment with “open classrooms” where the walls between rooms were torn down.

    17. boredatwork*

      There’s something about teachers and accountants…

      I have a co-worker who’s spouse went back to school to get a teaching degree and now teaches. He constantly complains that she is too stressed, works too many hours, and is not making nearly enough money for the stress she’s under. She teaches at a “good” school, is there primarily so their children can attend that “good” school.

      I on the other hand, am still an accountant, I am paid very well. Occasionally, I will have to stay late for work or work a weekend day, but the VAST majority of the time, I work 8-4pm. Have limitless freedom for appointments, sick days, spontaneous childcare issues…

      Can you try getting a different accounting job? The grass really is greener sometimes.

    18. Bertha*

      It sounds to me like you don’t like your *job,* your “work situation,” so the question I would ask is.. do you like your field? Do you think you could like it more elsewhere? There are frustrations in every job unique to the situation and culture that are vastly improved just by going somewhere else.

      That said, I know from prior experience obsessing over whether or not I should apply to a job by going way ahead in my mind about the position.. even if you’d likely qualify, that doesn’t mean you’ll be hired. The whole point could be moot. You could always apply, learn more, and then decide later.

      1. After-school program*

        Yeah, I now hire teachers for an after-school program, and I would not hire someone with such thin qualifications. Teaching is more than knowing the subject; you need to understand adolescent development and cognitive psychology, curriculum development, lesson planning, how to break down and explain a complex topic ten different ways, what mechanisms are involved in transferring, acquiring, and retaining knowledge both theoretically and practically, and that’s not even getting into the social-work aspect of teaching.

    19. Junior High Teacher*

      As a teacher, I’m there for my own kids after school, during the summers, and during breaks. There are definitely teachers who spend a lot of extra time at school, but I don’t. I teach ELA in a junior high, and sometimes kids don’t get their essays back for 10 days, but that’s my tradeoff. Honestly, I think there are some teachers who spend a ton of time because they a) are super committed and willing to give up family time, b) have unreasonable administration, c) are bad at time management, or d) are martyrs.

      Also, it’s good that you’ve looked into the pay. What about the benefits? I have a pension (almost unheard of in the US) that contributes 18% of my salary and a 1.5% 401K. My health insurance is good, I have dental and vision insurance, life insurance, etc. If you had, say, a 4% 401K match in accounting, you might find that although you have less cash at the end of the day, you have more money total. Also, because we teachers DO have summers off, I find that I am well compensated for working 10 months a year.

      I have definitely been lucky in my schools, students, parents, and administration. However, when teachers talk about how underpaid they are, how they work so many extra hours, how picked on they are…I honestly don’t recognize that job. That’s not the job I have. I am a good teacher who loves both her job and her students, and I think my pay and benefits are totally reasonable.

      (FYI: teacher in Utah with a master’s degree and 13 years experience. $64K)

    20. Kesnit*

      I’m not a teacher – I am the child of two retired public school teachers. (Mom taught elementary school. Dad taught high school.)

      I agree with what a lot of other people have already written. Mom bought a lot of her supplies because the school could not. (Dad taught a hard science, so there weren’t a lot of supplies necessary.) The work day does not start or end when the bell rings. Both of my parents had strong support networks with the other teachers at their schools, which helped a lot. (What pushed Mom to retire was when her long-term co-workers started retiring, she lost a lot of her support.) If you can talk to a teacher at the school where you are applying, ask about the culture and the support network.

      Teaching is a profession you have to love. If you don’t, you will not survive for long.

    21. A Teacher*

      I did this– full time athletic trainer (health care to high school teacher) I’m also a vocational education teacher, which if you are teaching business ed and getting a provisional certificate, you are. It is a big change and there is constant mandates that are both unfunded and unrealistic. People “think” that because they went to school they know how to do your job and the fun one is when you get told you’re getting paid for 12 months–you get paid for your contractual year, its just spread out over 12 months. Grading is time consuming and there is a lot of lesson planning, scaffolding, accounting for different learning styles, and modifying and creating new projects and worksheets. Classroom management, especially your first few years is hard and sometimes the expectations are overwhelming. You also have to learn to really pick your battles–like I can no longer give a “0” in my non-dual credit courses, the lowest my students can get is a “40%” so if they sleep in class and don’t do the work, they get a 40% for breathing. Aligning curriculum and backwards planning are now a thing too–and there’s never enough time. Ever. As far as the paycut, also plan on having to buy a lot of your supplies and be ready to have to supply your students with things. Pens, dry erase markers, paper, clorox wipes, kleenex, etc… not a lot at once but over a year it adds up. I spend more than 1000 a year on my classroom. 200 of it is reimbursed.

      That said, I truly like my job most of the time. My students learn a lot and I get to really teach kids a practical skill that they will use in the real world. We cover a ton of career topics and this blog is helpful for some of what I cover. I don’t have a curriculum and no one really understands what vocational education is–which is good and bad–but I get to design and teach kids things I think they really need to know. I have a standard teaching license too (Illinois) but only use my voc license for now. Voc Ed in the US gets a different funding source so I have a lot of equipment to use for my classroom. It is fun to watch high school kids grow and evolve too–some of them you become very attached to and try to mentor. I keep in contact with a lot of my students. Most days, I really love my job, even in challenging years like this where my last hour class is a struggle to manage.

      1. A Teacher*

        Will add teacher with 9 years in public high school, coach the speech program and have two Masters or (Masters + 30) on our contract schedule. I make about 55,000 a year, coaching is about 6,000 of that. I live in Illinois-not Chicagoland

    22. Double A*

      Ha, I’m in the opposite position– I’m a teacher and considering a career shift, but that is because my job is being eliminated and I just had a baby and starting up a new classroom teaching job at this moment in my life seems exhausting.

      Not sure what state you’re in, but the certification requirements for teaching aren’t nothing. You’ll probably have to go back to school, so you’d need to be prepared to pay for that, and if you’re considering elementary school, social studies, or English those jobs can be very hard to get. (I have 9 years of experience, am highly recommended, and just interviewed for an English job and didn’t get it). They always need math, science, and Special Education teachers.

      Teaching is an extremely time consuming job, and the first year is VERY hard. You will be working 50-60 hour weeks. So while your time off will line up with your kids, your daily schedule might mean you actually see them less. I’m not sure why you think your commute would be shorter… is there something that makes you think you would for sure get a job at a specific school?

      That said, teaching is also really rewarding, but you have to love the idea of managing a classroom, not just teaching your subject. Do you like managing? Because as a teacher you manage 20-30 immature people directly, every day, except you can’t fire them. It requires you to think creatively and really win your kids over. If that’s the kind of challenge that sounds rewarding for you, then I’d say see if you can do some observation in a classroom for a newer teacher. Do your research.

    23. teacher librarian*

      20 years a teacher .What everyone said and a little more.
      See if you can talk to one of the teachers who has been at the school to get a sense of the culture.
      There will be faculty meetings, prep, grading, report cards, parent teacher conferences, professional development, curriculum development, subject team meetings etc. All on your own time. Supplies and certification on your own dime.
      And don’t get me started about the time consuming waste of time filing sub plans if you do plan on taking a school day off for illness or a family emergency.
      If there is one quality a teacher needs, it is stamina.
      On the other hand, I did love it only recently switched to teaching In a University.

    24. T2sLastChance*

      You need to be prepared for the state testing that comes with teaching in a public school. Your students will have to test, test, test and you will be held accountable for those test scores. I love teaching. But, I wasn’t prepared for the amount of testing that would take up my daily instruction. Because make no mistake about it, we are absolutely teaching to test. (In the US).

    25. I'd Rather Not Say*

      Two points – I received a teaching certificate (grade 6-12 US) after graduation from college. I had an LAS bachelor’s degree, so teaching seemed like a logical direction. I worked with some extra curricular activities at a high school for a couple years, hoping to apply when there was an opening, and in the meantime was also working in an office job. I found I liked what I was doing at the office job (technology related) and grew less interested in teaching. I never ended up teaching.

      As others have said, see if you can get some experience in the classroom, or with students before you make the switch. Maybe the school’s business club is looking for an advisor.

      My father was a CPA and ran a small firm. Though accounting wasn’t for me, I saw how varied it is. Have you considered a change of scenery/specialization? If you work at a large firm, maybe a smaller one would be more satisfying (or the reverse). If you do only taxes or payroll, maybe auditing, or forensics is more to your interest.

      In any case, good luck to you!

    26. Samwise*

      You’re going to spend substantial amounts of time outside of work hours grading student work, planning classes/creating assignments/getting materials together for class activities, meeting with parents, meeting with students. Do not discount the hours you will spend working at home.

      You may enjoy all of these activities! but they are indeed time consuming.

    27. Christine*

      I started my career working in an office (office manager and then marketing coordinator). After 8 years in that role, I got burnt out and decided to try teaching. After spending 6-8 months getting my alternative certification and taking the applicable tests for the subject areas I wanted, I got a teaching job. I only lasted 1 year before going back into a corporate setting.

      The stress level was unbelievable. I was fortunate that for the assignment I was given (self-contained special ed class), there was not a lot of extra hours. My kids were very severe, and could not walk or talk, so grading was more of a creative writing assignment for me. That was no true for any other teacher in the school. They were routinely working 4-5 hours after school every day grading papers, going to trainings, department meeting, open houses, science fairs, other events, etc. It really is unbelievable. Everyone I knew was extremely stressed out. After 1 year, I was going to be switched to a regular education class (something you don’t have a lot of control over in public school…being switched to where you are needed or not having enough enrollment at the school, so you end up reassigned). Because of this, I decided to quit, and I haven’t looked back.

      The discipline in schools is at an all time low. Kids are not held accountable for anything, and it is the teacher who is looked at as “not able to manage a classroom”. State testing is a nightmare and a beast of a problem all on its own. Really, I could go on and on about why it is horrible to be a teacher in the American public school system.

      At the same time, my husband started teaching high school english (in public school). He only lasted 2 months before he had enough and quit. Previously my mother taught in public school, but she ended up quitting after she ended up in the hospital with chest pains. She now teaches at a private school that she likes and the experience there is much better.

      If you can find a private school with pay comparable to public, I would go that route if you are set on trying out teaching.

      I will say, that if you decide to try it, and you don’t like it (like what I did), I didn’t have too much of a hard time re-entering the industry I was previously working in since I had a good network. So having a backup plan is probably a good idea.

    28. Teacher*

      I have been teaching for over thirty years. I now teach in a private school which I love. I taught at a public high school for twenty-six years. Do not become a teacher. I cannot stress this strongly enough. Do. Not. Do. It.

      It has become horrendous. Teachers are treated terribly by everyone: their students, the parents, the administrators, the school board, and society in general. Teachers are blamed for everything. Students misbehave without any consequences. You will not have any free time because you will be spending every second prepping for lessons, grading, attending classes and workshops, coaching, tutoring, meeting with parents, responding in a timely manner to emails from both parents and students, and worrying about Susie who is suicidal, Bob who is being bullied, Sansa who is rude and obnoxious, Fergus who will not be quiet and who insists on cursing you out, Paula who refuses to put away her phone, etc., etc., etc.

      On top of which you get to worry about whether or not some deranged individual will walk in a shoot up the place.

      1. WannaAlp*

        …on top of which, you get “jokes” from acquaintances and relatives about how much holiday you have.

    29. Middle School Teacher*

      Well, to put things in perspective, I teach middle school, I co-run student council, I advise our GSA, I lead our trip to Europe, I teach full time (120 students – in humanities, which means way more marking than other subjects), I have a student teacher, I am doing graduate classes, and I am not the busiest at school at all.

      I’m also still at school at 6:15pm on a Friday night with a student because his mom is late picking him up after our dance. And I’m waiting for the DJ to finish packing up.

      None of this is unusual for a teacher.

    30. Hamburke*

      My sister has small kids, a full-time job and teaches one class a semester at a nearby university (either an evening class or a Saturday class). If you can find something similar, it might help you decide if you want to switch.

  4. Peaches*

    I’ve posted the past several weeks about my new coworker. At first, her biggest problem was constantly asking to borrow personal property (first my iPad, and more recently my keyboard and mouse). As time went on, it was clear that the bigger issue was her know-it-all attitude (constantly questioning training, completely changing processes without checking with anyone first, etc.) As I mentioned previously, she was even dismissed from a training session at our corporate office for being overly confrontational and essentially interrogating some higher ups at corporate about their training methods.

    Anyway, after pretty much frustrating all of the salespeople in our office over the past couple of weeks (the salespeople will be who she is primarily working with), and royally screwing up a project for one of them (which was completely due to her not following directions and trying to do said project her own way), she sent me the following email yesterday:

    Hey Peaches, if there’s anything else I am not doing and should be, or am doing and shouldn’t be I would really appreciate it if you could let me know. I feel like I’m always doing something wrong but no one is really telling me what to do so I’m just winging it.

    I really do want to do a good job and make everyone happy so if you have any more advice or help to offer I am all ears, anytime!

    But thank you so much for your help so far

    Since she was specifically asking for feedback, I decided to be honest with her and sent her the following email back:

    I understand that you want to do a good job, I definitely see that!

    I would just recommend being a little more receptive to the instructions you’ve been given. I’m sorry if you don’t feel like you have been adequately trained and are “winging it”. However to be honest, I feel like sometimes you are given direction, but are quick to pushback and do things your own way, even when others may have more experience to be able to guide you in the right direction. I’m always happy to answer any questions you might have, and if I don’t know the answer, I’ll try to help you find it!

    I think it’s important to just try to listen and learn as best you can for now before jumping in and trying to do things your own way. A few times, I’ve overheard you tell some of the salespeople, “oh, actually we’re going to do X this way now” without asking me first, and to be honest, it just comes across a bit like you’re discrediting the way that we’ve done things in the past. I’m more than happy to hear your thoughts/ideas on how you think a process could be improved, but I think you sometimes immediately try to fix things without inquiring first why we’ve done something a certain way in the past, that may not make sense to you without asking.

    The other piece of advice I would give is this: It’s okay to not know everything! I know you want to come across as smart and capable. But occasionally, I think it comes across as you trying to seem like an expert in something that you’ve just learned. You’re not expected to know everything at this point, which again is why I would suggest just doing things like QC and building count/measures the way that you’ve been taught before trying to make any changes. That way, once you’ve had the experience and gained more knowledge in (job), you’ll have the all the background information to know if something does need to be changed down the road.

    I don’t mean to come across as overly brusque, but I truly want you to succeed in this position, so I want to be honest with you. I can see that you are motivated and smart, but I think my main piece of advice would just be to listen and learn as a new employee.

    Hope this helps.

    -Peaches

    She responded with the following:

    I’m very sorry for coming off that way. It was never my intent.
    In trying not to bother you or add extra work to your plate I guess I just made myself look bad and frustrated you.

    Your opinion of me and my performance weighs heavily on my success here so I’m very disappointed in myself for having made such a negative impression, with you and everyone.

    I appreciate your honesty and the feedback and will absolutely try to improve and put everything you’ve said into practice if given the opportunity.

    Her response indicates that she’s taking my feedback seriously, so we’ll see if she makes improvements in the coming days. Either way, I’m glad I spoke up!

    1. Peaches*

      Sorry, meant to change “QC and building count/measure” to “X and Y”. I know you guys don’t know what that means. :)

      1. irene adler*

        I have some idea- I work in QC and it’s all about defined procedures that must be adhered to. Can’t get creative.

        Gotta say, I would just adore working with you . Always liked having co-workers, bosses, who gave it to me straight. And were supportive too! Hope co-worker will recognize this and appreciate it (and you!).

        Hope there’s follow-through on her part.

        1. Peaches*

          Thank you so much. :) That really means a lot. I really do try my best to balance being supportive, and also giving direct feedback.

          Also, yes, you are spot on about QC – there are certainly defined procedures that you can’t stray from!

          1. irene adler*

            Some people just gotta “improve” things- but they don’t understand that doing so creates a whole list of problems.

    2. Kathenus*

      Peaches – I just want to say that I applaud you for responding to her request for feedback, and for the way that you phrased it. It was clear without being harsh, and constructive but supportive of wanting her to succeed. I have to say I’m also impressed with your coworker’s response. Hopefully she’ll be able to take it in and use it to improve, versus letting it overwhelm her. Very nicely handled, I’ll definitely keep your response in mind when I’m in a situation of giving (or getting!) feedback in the future.

      1. Peaches*

        Thank you so much, I appreciate that. :)

        I’m hopeful that she’ll take my feedback to heart.

    3. CatCat*

      Thanks for this latest update. Your email was amazing.

      Her behavior definitely did not reflect someone who wanted this job, but it looks like she did not realize that and your email may have gotten through to her on that front. I hope you keep updating us.

      Again, exceptional message to her on your part.

    4. LaDeeDa*

      That is great!! It seems to indicate she is finally open to feedback and direction! *fingers crossed* Keep us posted!

    5. Corky's wife Bonnie*

      Your e-mail was very kind, and very clear. You did a great job communicating the issues with her, and I didn’t find you brusque at all, good job!

        1. Not One of the Bronte Sisters*

          Well done you! From your previous description I would have thought this person was going to be a disaster, but it sounds like she does care and really did not see how she was coming across. I thought your tone was spot on–being incredibly positive and supportive while managing to point out the problems. I think I’d love to work with you!

    6. SOAS*

      I followed loosely.. good to see that she is taking it! criticism can be pretty hard pill to swallow but half the struggle is actually realizing you’re doing something wrong and reaching out for help. I really love how you worded this!

    7. Not So NewReader*

      I love what you said, but I also am impressed with her response.
      I am hoping this clears the air and things are different at work now. She has the potential to be a pretty cool cohort, I hope she keeps going in this direction.

  5. Anon anony*

    I had an interview and at the end, I asked questions. Before it wrapped, they said to contact them if I had any more questions. This usually means I didn’t get the job, in my experience. Is this always the case? Can you still get the job?

    They’ve also re-posted the job- even though they first advertised it in January.

    1. A Simple Narwhal*

      Nope, it just means “please contact me if you have any more questions”. I full understand the inclination to assign meaning to everything in an interview, but there’s nothing to be read from this.

      As for the re-posting, that could mean many things – maybe you didn’t get the job, maybe they’re looking for multiple people for that position, maybe the listing expired in their system and they had to reload it, there’s just no one straight answer that will tell you exactly what that means.

      How long has it been since your interview?

        1. A Simple Narwhal*

          Oh yea that is way too early to tell if you’ve been successful or not. I totally get wanting to read the tea leaves for answers, but you’re definitely at the wait-and-see part of interviewing.

          Good luck, hope it turns out well!

          1. Anon anony*

            Thank you! I hope so too! I just really liked everyone and need to get out of current toxic job.

    2. Kathenus*

      In my experience, all that means is to contact them if you have any more questions. I say this to everyone I interview, to make sure they know I don’t mind hearing from them if something occurs to them afterwards. So I can’t speak to your hiring manager, but I think you may be reading too much into that statement. I think it means exactly what it says. Good luck with the rest of the process.

      1. NotAnotherManager!*

        Same – I always tell candidates (whether or not we will be moving forward with them) that if they have additional questions after they leave to please let us know as it’s important to me that they get any information they need about the company or job to make a decision – it’s pretty much always to my benefit that they get any information they need rather than deciding a month in that the job’s not for them.

    3. lnelson in Tysons*

      They are probably looking for a purple unicorn.

      Seriously though, maybe there is something very specific that they are looking for and you don’t have it. A soft skill, more years in teapot painting vs teapot packaging. Whose knows.
      I was on many many interview where I thought that I would be a great fit and thought that I could work well with those interviewing me, but didn’t get the job, only one place gave me constructive feed back. It was a lack of experience in one area (and I didn’t have it).
      Good luck in your job searching. It is a pain.

    4. Catleesi*

      That’s definitely not the case. When I’ve been conducting interviews I often say that – because if they do have questions they should feel free to reach out. Take what they said at face value and don’t read too much into it.

    5. Anne of Green Gables*

      I tell all candidates to contact me if they think of any questions after the interview. All. It has no bearing on who I will hire. Most of the time, I don’t know that yet anyway. (Meaning I don’t decide until all interviews have concluded and I’ve conferred with the rest of the hiring committee.)

      1. Someone On-Line*

        In the hiring committees I’ve been on we’ve always wrapped up with that phrase. Sometimes you’ll think of something after the interview. Plus it gives an opening for the candidate to send a thank-you letter or some other form of contact and the opportunity to make another good impression upon us.

    6. Anona*

      When we interview, we always end asking people to contact us if they have more questions. That’s all that it means. Even if you don’t get the job, don’t read into that– it’s probably something they say to literally everyone!

    7. Anonymous Educator*

      I kind of think the opposite. If you bombed the interview, and they didn’t want to have anything to do with you any more, I doubt they’d invite you to contact them (which is what contacting them with more questions would be).

    8. Fortitude Jones*

      That doesn’t always mean that. The job I just got, at the end of every interview I had (four of them), they all said the same thing. It really just depends.

    9. Jadelyn*

      Re the “contact if you have more questions”, I’m joining the chorus of folks saying I end *all* screenings and interviews that way. Literally all of them. It means absolutely nothing re candidacy.

      Re the re-posting, a lot of places have a policy of continuous re-posting until the position is filled. At my org, if I let a job posting expire before we have someone *actually working* in the position, I get scolded. Even if we have someone in the final stages of background check, something could always happen and we have to go back to recruiting, so we keep it posted to keep the applicant pool fresh in case we need it. It doesn’t necessarily mean anything about your candidacy.

    10. OhNo*

      Just to add to your anecdata collection, I was recently hired to a job after hearing that phrase at the end of both of the interviews I was called in for.

      Honestly, I think it’s just a stock phrase that a lot of interviewers use. The tone it’s said it can give you a little nuance, sometimes, but mostly it’s just a common phrase.

    11. dealing with dragons*

      In my view it means exactly that. Sometimes I ask more about the benefits package (mostly like 401k matching, types of insurance, etc not like how much the salary range is). Sometimes I use it to clarify things also, like “hey I mentioned I did this, here’s a link” etc.

      And reposting might not be bad – if it’s from january I know as an applicant I wouldn’t apply to a posting that old. they might not have talked to HR yet or it was an automated process.

    12. Pommette!*

      My previous workplace had very standardized protocols for interviews/hiring. I got to see some of the materials when my boss was hiring someone new. This was one of the questions they had to ask at the end of every interview. It was in bold letters to make sure that it didn’t get dropped.

  6. unwilling social media manager*

    I have recently been given the task of starting a social media presence for our extremely small company. Zero background in this but I am the youngest on the team sooo. I started by creating a facebook page, then more recently a twitter, and now an instagram. We also have a website and a newsletter, and we engage on some industry blogs too. This could easily be a full time job but it’s not my actual full time job. At this point it’s enough that I want to use a managing site like hootsuite to handle some of the tasks. Does anyone else have a recc for dashboard/platforms they’ve liked? I especially find it hard to be responsive on each of the channels (eg, following back on twitter, replying quickly to comments on FB, etc etc), which I’m not sure hootsuite will help me with.

    1. A Simple Narwhal*

      Hootsuite is great for scheduling content, but it won’t help you with the other things you’ve laid out. Typically it’s a good idea to follow the 70-30 rule for posting – 70% should be industry related content, only 30% should be about your specific company. Something I’ve used to gather content in the past is feedly – find/create some lists that are relevant to your company/industry, that way you can find good content all in one place, schedule it all in feedly, and boom, you’ve got content scheduled for the week.

      You are spot on that this could/should be someone’s full time job – social media can be an amazing source of success for a company, but it needs to be done well, not just tacked on the side of someone else’s duties.

      1. unwilling social media manager*

        Yes, the content is one thing, but I worry that if I just get it scheduled to auto-feed, I will fail at the interaction part because it’s running out of sight out of mind. Meaning I won’t be responding to comments fast enough, etc. But I would like a site that will show me all the updates / notifications in one place – ideally let me respond from that same platform – rather than logging into each stupid site one at a time and responding to whatever has happened since the last time I checked (I do try to touch each site once per day).

    2. Lilysparrow*

      I am new to Hootsuite, and I really like it for batch-scheduling planned content. I have not yet figured out how to use it for real-time interaction, but I believe that is a function.

      Right now, I just make time once a day to visit the platforms directly and check for messages & comments, and 1-2 x per week to do followbacks, invite page likes etc, all at once.

      1. ThatGirl*

        I use Hootsuite to reply to Facebook and Twitter comments, but it has its limits. You can set up streams to monitor posts, hashtags, tagged comments/posts, etc. What’s best about it is the ability to assign posts or messages to yourself or others, and use tags to sort them.

        1. unwilling social media manager*

          Yeah even if I could just log in and see where all the comments/likes/whatever are, across many platforms, that would help – even if I then have to log into that platform to actually engage. It would still save me a lot of logging in just to check things. Thanks!

    3. Aezy*

      We use Buffer, but I’ve used Hootsuite in the past which is also useful for cross-posting and centralised management. There are lots out there to have a look through – if you’re hoping to grow via content marketing specifically then it’s worth getting to grips with Hubspot or something similar since that can really help with marketing and sales analytics too.

      I wouldn’t worry too much about being extremely responsive – YMMV but as long as you’re checking in and replying once a day or so people shouldn’t feel too abandoned! Also definitely worth tracking how much time you’re spending on tasks related to social media management – if you’re not keen to continue running it long term then demonstrating how long it takes out of your day might help make the case for a new role.

      1. unwilling social media manager*

        Hehehe I think that’s my issue – I was fine doing it once per day when it was just facebook. Now that it’s multiple sites in multiple places, even once per day is beginning to feel like a lot – and right now it’s all still growing so everything is fairly quiet! I can’t imagine if we actually start getting a lot of interaction!

        1. Jenny F. Scientist*

          How much does your work want you to be available/responsive? Is it possible to set one or more of the sites with a header/profile message to contact X (email, FB, whatever) for a faster response, and then concentrate on that one/ only check the others on Fridays or whatever?

          Your work may have no idea how much time and effort it takes to run multiple platforms and to be responsive; maybe you can do as Aezy suggests and track it, then bring a change proposal to them.

    4. Meh*

      Lots of social media is image heavy and I HIGHLY recommend Canva. It’s a free website that has pre-made image templates for all of the major social media sites and it can really help speed along creating images for your site, especially if you have no graphic design experience (I do and I still use it since it makes slapping together designs so much quicker). I use Hootsuite and have been pleased with them for scheduling content all at once at the beginning of the week and just letting it run. Granted I don’t really check for messages more than once a day, but it makes the process a bit easier.

      1. unwilling social media manager*

        Yes many people have recommended canva to me for producing content! But I don’t think it helps manage my interactions across sites. Does it?

      2. De-Archivist*

        +1.

        I part-time manage and create content for my org. I use Hootsuite and Canva all the time.

        OP, the first thing I do in the morning is boot up my computer, check my messages, and check my email. Next, I check my content on social media platforms and make my replies. I basically just added social media to my morning routine. I have certain days that content goes live at 3pm.

        FB especially really urges you to make extremely quick replies to messages and post a ton of content, and while I see some value in that, your average viewer likely doesn’t want to spammed with content from your org 24/7 and probably does expect an immediate reply. Once-per-day is plenty to respond to messages.

        1. unwilling social media manager*

          Yeah, I think once a day for each site is sufficient as a minimum, I’m just finding that I’d rather be able to do it all from one place.

    5. Fact & Fiction*

      Is your company B2C or B2B? I’m partially responsible for social media for my B2B company, and we get by far the most engagement/followers on LinkedIn.

      1. unwilling social media manager*

        Linked In is the only one we already had is managed by someone else. So that’s one less problem for me.

    6. MissDisplaced*

      Well, do you HAVE to be on every platform? For small companies, and especially if this is tacked on to your other duties, I’d say start with just 2 platforms.
      Choosing which ones depends on the type of company. Facebook and Instagram and maybe Pinterest is suited to B2C and NGOs, while LinkedIn is more specifically for B2B. Twitter can be either. And of course YouTube.

      Hootsuite is very good for scheduling. It’s a great place to start and it’s free for the basic. Sprout Social and Sprinklr are some others.

      And I would push back if you are expected to handle all this by yourself. It really is a full-time job and should have a solid content strategy behind it, not just something whereby a person throws up a few posts.

      1. unwilling social media manager*

        Haha yes they’ve suggested a youtube and I told them they’d need to hire someone to do that, and we don’t have a pinterest so at least we are not literally on every single thing haha. In theory, I could check each of our three accounts once a day in like five minutes, it just wouldn’t be doing very much for us.

    7. Samwise*

      I encourage you to talk with your manager about the time commitment needed to be responsive. They may have no idea how much time it takes to do a good job at “have a social media presence”. Get some real facts on this — how much time are you spending on finding things to post, how much time are you spending on writing things, how much time are you spending on actually posting items and doing techy trouble-shooting, how much time are you spending responding to comments/queries/ etc. Include your time (and note the specific tasks you’re doing) on the website, newsletter, and blogs. Keep track for a couple of weeks, then sit down with your manager and your report.

      You need to figure out if you are able to do a reasonably good job at running the co’s social media presence along with doing whatever else your job requires. Give some thought to whether you enjoy doing it, would you be happy continuing to do it, would you be happy for it to take up more of your work time.

    8. 867-5309*

      Is the company B2B or B2C?

      You might not need all of those profiles and further, might not need to be posting much at all. I’m CMO of a tech start-up and we don’t use a platform to manage our channels because it’s not necessary. In my experience, people post far too often because that’s the “advice.”

      Even if you get a solution to help manage it, you might still being doing far more than you need to. Feel free to send me a message on LinkedIn. I’d be happy to help you create a mini-plan to make it as easy as possible for you to do the project. linkedin.com/in/jpbrown

  7. DB Cooper*

    Greetings all! I posted in one of these threads a few weeks back and got some good advice, so I’m back for more.

    Tl;dr: Two questions:

    1) How long is too long and how much is too much before you should just “nope” your way out of a toxic, soul-crushing work environment with nothing new waiting for you?

    2) Any tips/experiences that may help me figure out what I *really* want to do and how to get there from retail?

    If you want more detail…

    I hate my job (retail manager), don’t like my company (the horrible culture is consistent across the business according to Glassdoor and other sites), and don’t even respect my manager at this point (many reasons, starting with she’s a self-absorbed micromanager who belittles direct reports and makes disparaging comments to/about us and our teams — think calling team members “the r-word”).

    Between the company falling apart (basic infrastructure fails weekly), threats caused by company-wide poor results (meetings that start with presenters commenting that some of us in the room won’t be here in Q3, a corporate memo literally promising cuts/closings if results don’t improve) and knowing I’m not suited for this work anyway (thanks Myers-Briggs!)… I’m so done. Finished.

    At this point I feel like I’m killing myself just solely for the paycheck. And the pay is good, but not worth what I deal with when I’m there. Not even my team (who I like) can make it enjoyable anymore, and I don’t feel good about being there just for the money. Plus, as we downsize I hate the idea of keeping a spot from someone who may actually want to be there.

    I went through the interview process with another retail job and it didn’t work out, which was actually kind of a relief, so I know I want to do something else. Just not sure what. I don’t want to manage/lead at this stage and I’d like to use the bachelors degree that I’ve done absolutely nothing with up to this point. But I’m so beat down at the end of the day I’m too depressed to eat, let alone job hunt or think about my next steps. My family is supportive, suggesting I just walk away right now to detox before trying something new. We could certainly afford it, but the idea of another resume gap (thanks, 2009 recession) is majorly stressing to me. I don’t know how best to escape, and could use any advice.

    1. Artemesia*

      If it were me I would first work, perhaps with a therapist, on strategies to compartmentalize and reduce stress. If you could do this then you would have the energy to job search effectively. It really is better to look for a job from the platform of having one. Only you know ultimately if it is possible for you to stick it out that long. Highly personal decision. But first see if you can come up with a plan to cope better. If that doesn’t work then consider walking away.

      1. Dreamboat Annie*

        I second the recommendation to work with a therapist. Also, do you have any vacation time built up?

        1. Fortitude Jones*

          I third it. Therapy got me through the stress of job hunting before I landed the job I’m about to leave, and I’m back in it again to help me cope with the transition into a new position.

          1. DB Cooper*

            Is there anything specific you’d look for when searching for a therapist during a job hunt? I like the idea, because I definitely need to talk to someone but frequently force myself to bottle it up. Not to mention the fact that it’s going to be really an adjustment to pivot away from some of the psychological tactics/abuse that goes on where I’m at… I don’t wanna land something new and then be the newbie talking about how horrible my old job was all the time! :-)

            1. Fortitude Jones*

              I actually sought my therapist out prior to my job search because, as it turns out, I have OCD and was in the middle of an OCD-induced breakdown (I had no clue that was what was happening – I thought it was all job stress), but she does cognitive behavioral therapy, which focuses on helping the patient find new ways to behave by changing thought patterns. It sounds like you may need to find someone who specializes in that as well because when you’re in a seemingly hopeless job situation, it can lead you to thinking you’ll never get out, which will then lead to you not even trying to job hunt because you think, “Well, what’s the point?” She helped me deal with my OCD and my job search – she even distributed my resume to some of her former clients who were potentially hiring – and I found a new job within five months of seeing her. She’s also going to assist me with the transition I’m about to take on by taking a promotion to another company – apparently, change is very difficult for my OCD brain to handle, so she wants to tackle this head-on before I get overwhelmed in my new role.

            2. Fortitude Jones*

              I typed up this nice, long response, and it appears to have not posted :(

              Anyway, look for someone who specializes in Cognitive Behavioral Therapy. CBT is a short-term therapy technique that can help people find new ways to behave by changing their thought patterns. Engaging with CBT can help people reduce stress, cope with complicated relationships, deal with grief, and face many other common life challenges – I totally copied and pasted this definition just because others can explain it better than I can :)

              1. Anonymatic YoYo*

                Thank you for posting this – I will go look into this now. Very glad DB Cooper asked this question today because man, what a day I had. But all of that above rings true to me about not wanting o search, feeling like I’ll never get out etc. I’m already in career coaching but I’ve been wondering lately if I need therapy too in order to deal with some PTSD from a former boss and whatever the hell is holding me back. I’ve had CBT in the past to deal with thoughts about not being good enough in school and I followed a career path where people tell you repeatedly you aren’t good enough even if its false. Maybe I need a top up since its been a good 20 years at least since the last sessions!

                1. Fortitude Jones*

                  Yes, it definitely sounds like you could benefit from going back. I just started my sessions up again after a four month break, and it has helped tremendously. My OCD is in check now (knock on wood), but I still have those lingering feelings of doubt and sadness, especially since I’m about to change jobs again, so therapy is essential to get back on track.

        2. DB Cooper*

          I have three weeks of vacation/sick time — my whole allotment for the year. I lose what’s left when I quit, and can’t take any after giving notice. Wish I could take some now, but manager doesn’t approve time off if you’re missing sales numbers. She also sets her own blackout periods as she likes, so we are about to start a two week period where no one gets any time off anyway…

      2. DB Cooper*

        The therapist idea is a good one… in fact, I think I get a certain number of phone sessions as part of my benefits. I’m sure I wouldn’t be the first person calling in search of a plan to escape this place, haha.

        I’ve toyed with leaving for a long time, and most of my colleagues who were a sounding board/support system have already jumped. The last two are on the verge of flat walking out. And I just really hate the feeling of talking about it to other friends/family who aren’t dealing with it because it makes me feel like such a negative person.

    2. LaDeeDa*

      Oh wow! I can hear the burnout in your words. If you can afford to leave, do it. It isn’t worth it. I find gaps to be so much less problematic than people think – “I am so fortunate I was able to take some time off to have some fun/take a class/care for a family member/travel/volunteer for a cause I felt strongly about.” And do one of those things!

      I don’t know what your degree is in or if those jobs are plentiful in your area. If you want to break into a new field, the best thing you can do is take any job at a company who does what you want, once you are in then you will be gaining exposure to the work, even if it is from the desk of an admin or a coordinator. Also, be honest in your cover letter “I am excited to have the opportunity to work for X company, my degree and passion are in the field of Y…. ”

      Good luck!

      1. DB Cooper*

        I actually tried to not show my burnout and edited/slimmed down my post a lot, believe it or not… that’s the point I’m at, and you’re right. It’s not worth it. Degree is in Communication, which was great when the university told me “You can do anything with it!” Now so great, as I’ve seen the real world reaction of “Anyone could do that without a degree!” Originally got it with a desire to do PR or Marketing.

        There is actually one specific industry I’ve always wanted to get involved in (which is also slimming down, ironically), and I’ve got a couple of feelers out to folks I know in that field. I need to get stronger at cover letters, most definitely.

        1. LaDeeDa*

          Communication degrees can be tricky because often they give a good overview of all the things, but don’t focus enough on one area to make a person an expert – marketing, social media, speech writing, etc. We hire a lot of communication degreed people to work on our internal and external comms teams- and often there are junior positions. One of the internal comms people I work with has a BA in Communications, she writes my internal website postings and some announcement type emails for me and my team. She is great and I have exposed her to curriculum writing. With her level of interest and my need, I spoke to her manager to ask if I could let work on a small project. I have content from 3 different previous classes and I want them combined into one– she is loving it, and my team is sponsoring her now to take an e-learning development class. Her knowledge in communications/writing and the design knowledge she has from that is working out great- what she can now develop is understanding some theories behind curriculum design and adult learning.

          My point is– Anything you can do to get your foot in the door and also to pick the area you want to work in.
          Good luck!

          1. DB Cooper*

            Comm degrees *are* so tricky! Mine is actually Corporate Communication, and I got some experience a decade ago doing email marketing, social media, print materials, etc. I actually built a website/blog 8-9 years ago the last time I was between jobs, and it developed a small following online (I don’t remember hits, but 3k Twitter followers and lots of Facebook engagement). It’s was a TON of time invested, but it was fun because it was my interests and totally in my wheelhouse. I got started at this job though and it died pretty quickly once I got busy with working. One of the things that bugs me the most right now is knowing that I have the skills and drive and could absolutely build something like that again if I wasn’t so exhausted outside of work. This time I’d try to leverage that kind of a project into a communication-related job someplace.

            1. Fortitude Jones*

              My degree was in Communications, but on the Global Journalism track at my university, so I completely understand your frustration. I too got the, “You can do anything with this degree! Everyone needs writers!” spiel. Then I graduated at the height of the recession (2009), and every job posting I found wanted people with very specific skills that I just didn’t have – apparently, no one needed writers, lol.

              I’m actually working in business development as a proposal manager, and I think your Corporate Comm degree would be a fantastic fit in this field. Proposal writer jobs are plentiful right now, especially if you’re willing to move, and I’ve even seen and applied to several fully remote proposal jobs as well (my new job is fully remote, and I’ll be working in the software industry). Look into this if you really want to write again – I love this career. I’m kind of bummed I didn’t know this was a thing until two years ago. I could have been much further along on this path if I’d known anything about it, lol. J-school, and Comm programs in general, really don’t do a good enough job at helping graduates figure out what to do after they’re done the program and don’t necessarily want to be journalists.

    3. CatCat*

      If you can afford it, quitting a place that is having such a negative impact on your health is a good idea, imo. With my encouragement, my spouse quit his soul crushing job a couple of years ago. It was negatively impacting his health and our relationship. I had gotten a new job with big raise so we could afford to live on my salary alone. Worth it.

      He ended up going back to school and then getting “just a job” job in a non-toxic environment. Much lower pay and not ultimately what he wants to do, which he is still working on studying, but such a mental RELIEF to work someplace that wasn’t leaving him depressed.

      So if it’s financially feasible, get out, and get your health back.

      1. Windchime*

        I went through a thing at work a couple of years ago and in retrospect, I should have left that job at least a year before I did. It was toxic and my mental and physical health were shot while I was there. I took an 8 week FMLA leave and saw a therapist many times during that leave; I can’t tell you how helpful it was to me to hear someone say, “Oh, yep–you’re right, that’s toxic.” She helped me understand that leaving was not a bad thing, and I did leave shortly after. It took me about 18 months to fully regain my physical and mental health back.

        If you can afford it, I would seriously think about just leaving. It’s not worth ruining your health over.

        1. DB Cooper*

          You know something I never mentioned before that is probably pretty relevant? You mentioned finding out that leaving isn’t a bad thing… I’ve never actually left a job voluntarily. In my life, I mean. I’ve always been the one riding the ship down into the abyss.

          And it’s definitely so good to have someone who agrees that certain circumstances really are unhealthy. Too often I find my peers expecting less and less from the corporate overlords, and meanwhile I’m just over here asking myself why I’m going to keep pouring my effort into a place that can’t or won’t support me with things like a functioning network or reasonable air conditioning.

        2. Not One of the Bronte Sisters*

          Yes, I was coming here to say this. Nothing is more important than your health. Since your family will be supportive about it, embrace the support and leave. Give yourself time, and permission, to figure out what you want to do.

      2. DB Cooper*

        Your spouse is very lucky to have someone so supportive! As a guy who has that now, and didn’t have that the last time I was in a situation I should’ve walked away from, I know how much easier it makes things to have someone who is in my corner and supporting my goals/health/growth. As much as I let it impact my health & wellbeing, I’ve watched too many colleagues in my role lose relationships and entire families by pouring themselves completely into their job, and that’s a risk I’m simply not willing to take.

    4. Qwerty*

      I think you need to get out quickly, even if it is to another retail job or a some other pay-the-bills job that isn’t your career goal. Right now you don’t have much idea what you want to do and are too exhausted/drained by your current job to spend the time to figure it out and execute a plan to get there. Find a job that will give you a little more sanity while you figure things out. If this turns out to be a short term job, it’ll be easy to explain in interviews that the company was downsizing and struggling so you took a job quickly in case the store closed. Even if your location was never on the chopping block, so many retail stores have closed lately that interviewers will understand.

      Once you have breathing space, then figure out a plan. When you are able to eat and sleep, your brain will start to function better and you can explore what fields your degree applies to.

    5. Manders*

      Oof, these questions are going to be difficult for anyone else to answer because so much depends on your personal situation.

      For #1, it sounds like you’ve got a supportive family–are you talking about emotional support only, or are they a potential financial safety net? What’s the job market like in your area? How long do you think you could last on your savings, and is that a realistic amount of time to find a better job? Does your job give you health insurance or any other benefit you really need to have?

      For #2, I’d focus less on personality tests like Myers-Briggs–they can be useful for some people who are looking for a direction, but the career advice sections tend to be written by people who don’t have firsthand knowledge of the careers they’re trying to describe. Focus on what you find fulfilling in a job (not necessarily what you love–every job had unloveable tasks). I’ve written out a bit of my personal process below, in case you find it helpful.

      When I was feeling stuck with a dead-end reception job, I started focusing on the kinds of tasks I could tolerate and the kinds of results that motivated me. My conclusions: I could do repetitive, boring tasks just fine, but only if I was allowed to listen to music or a podcast while I was doing it. I hated being customer-facing. I hated being chained to a phone. I loved results that were quantifiable. So I found an entry-level marketing position that let me try a little bit of everything, and kept refining my likes and dislikes from there: I don’t actually want to write copy daily. I like finding inefficiencies in systems and fixing them. I don’t like television and radio marketing. I like SEO. Then I moved on to a more advanced marketing position that lets me do more of what I like.

      1. Iris Eyes*

        Thanks for sharing your process! I think that kind of reflection would probably be a good idea for just about everyone.

      2. DB Cooper*

        My family is a HUGE emotional support. I didn’t have them during my employment gap in 2009, so I know as much as I worry otherwise, I can emotionally handle an employment gap much better now than I did during the recession.

        I have the equivalent of seven months net income totally liquid, just sitting in the bank. (I’ve been planning for the eventuality that it’s time to move on.) Could definitely live on less than that though, but need to do a more detailed budget to see how far I could stretch it. Nine or ten months if I cut to the bone? I’d definitely have something by then, even if retail again. Health insurance is important to me, and I know next to nothing about getting it on my own, as it’s always been part of my compensation package.

        I’ve done Myers-Briggs and the STRONG assessment and they both point to my own intuition that I’m not built for this kind of work. I’m an introvert by nature, and, honestly, you sound EXACTLY like me. I hate the phone and customer facing work and I’m totally into operations (find inefficiency, build a system to fix inefficiency, then hand it to the next guy and move on).

      3. alannaofdoom*

        This is great advice! When you want to switch industries (or make any big move, honestly) it’s really useful to identify what elements of a job you excel in, and what you’d like to avoid.

        DB, your retail management background means you have a TON of experience and skills that will serve you well in numerous (and varied!) roles and industries. I’m just throwing out a few binary options here to help you start thinking about what kind of role (and/or industry) you want; with the understanding that every person and every job is gonna have plenty of overlap, and that these options are not necessarily mutually exclusive, I find that beginning from a binary choice helps identify an initial direction:

        – Are you more comfortable working with data/numbers? Or do you prefer more verbal or visual projects that don’t incorporate much math?
        – Are you comfortable predicting/forecasting what will happen next? Or do you prefer putting together detailed analysis of what *has* happened?
        – Are you more comfortable with tactics (think detail-oriented, granular, “I know what the goal is and I can figure out the steps to get us there)? Or are you more of a strategic thinker (generally bigger-picture, “our overarching goals should be [xyz]”)?
        – Do you thrive in a structured role where you do the same well-defined tasks/projects on a set schedule? Or do you prefer a less structured role where you take on varying projects as they arise?

      4. Dragon Egg*

        Thank you for sharing this. I’m a challenging work situation myself and an thinking through what to do, and especially what to do differently in my next job search, and I found your suggestions extremely helpful.

        OP, not sure what else to add but wishing you the best of luck moving forward!

    6. Aud*

      I was a bank teller in a very toxic environment for over a year (if you’re in the US, you’ve seen them in the news quite a bit in recent years). Threats of losing your job for low sales came up not just daily but every few hours. I couldn’t afford to leave without having something lined up so I focused on the customers and coworkers I enjoyed to get me through the day with enough energy to job search when I got home. I don’t know of that’s an option for you, but if it isn’t and you can afford to leave without having a replacement job lined up I say leave.

      If you need income in the meantime you can also check out coffee shops or catering gigs. I worked catering at a convention center fresh out if college, and the pay was decent enough that on about 15 hours a week I could afford my share of rent in a (very modest) shared apartment. That could help bridge the gap between positions while giving you enough energy to find something new.

    7. Llellayena*

      If you don’t need the money, I’d recommend quitting. It’s tough to have to show enthusiasm/find time to job hunt when you’re beat down by a full-time, energy/soul draining job. If you are really opposed to a resume gap and don’t need the full time money, perhaps non-management part-time retail would work? Use the down time to recover, pursue therapy etc. then focus on figuring out exactly what you want to do with that degree. Is there a career field you want to aim for? What entry positions are possible? Can you get informational interviews (the real kind, not the I’m-really-looking-for-a-job kind) that can help you find the beginning of the path. Once that’s sorted (might take a few months), start looking and applying for those jobs. You’ll have fresher energy and a clearer outlook which will show in interviewing. Follow other advice from this site for the job hunt (I’m not going to risk repeating it wrong!). Good luck!

    8. Psyche*

      For #1: Ask yourself which would be more stressful and soul crushing: unemployment or working this job. It sounds like unemployment, while not stress free, would be preferable. That is your sign it is time to quit. As for your resume, there are things you can do to fill the gap. Since you want to switch fields anyway it will be easier to explain away. You can volunteer or take some classes so that you have something to put on your resume and it may even help you make the switch.

      1. DB Cooper*

        That’s an amazing way of breaking it down that really speaks to me. Thank you.

        Every day before I walk in to work, I wish away the day — which I’ve always sworn since I was young that I’d never do. Even on the worst day of NOT being there, I’m almost certain I’d never wish time away. Seems like a sign, huh?

        I’d never even thought of it that way. Again, I thank you.

        1. Sally Bowles*

          Oh my gosh. You nailed exactly what I’ve been doing but hadn’t put a name to. I’ve been wishing away entire swaths of time trying to get through my own toxic job. Every morning when I wake up, I have to give myself pep talks. “You can do this, you just have to get through the next 12 hours, then you’ll be back home with your husband and dog.” You’ve given me a lot to think about. Good luck to you.

    9. LKW*

      There is no set time – especially if it’s toxic and you don’t plan on using them as a reference. The only thing you have to manage are your bills. If you feel you can get by -do what you need to do.

      Start investigating temp services – office jobs and the like. Practice your typing skills (you’re customer service skills and phone skills should be pretty good coming out of retail). There are tons of jobs out there that no one even thinks about.

      Depending on your education and background – is there an industry that you’d like more? Automotive? Construction? Library? And while you may not like the sales side of retail – they do have office jobs because all of the merchandise needs to be conceived, created, and all that fun stuff.
      Consider taking a civil service exam to get your foot in the door of federal/state jobs like Postal Worker – fresh air, pension (and papercuts).

      I guess – you don’t like sales – but what interests you?

    10. Seeking Second Childhood*

      From reading all those comments & your followup, and seeing that you’re able to afford it but worried about resume gap, I’d say get out but first talk to a temp agency. They’re *totally* used to people who temp as a way to figure out what they want to do next. Tell them you are interested in temp-to-perm, tell them you will need occasional gaps because you’ll be concurrently searching for full-time roles. Tell them you want to take advantage of any software-training programs they have available, and tell them you want out of retail. You should be able to get out of the toxic work place with something to put on your resume immediately! “May 2019 – current. JollyGoodTempAgency Inc. Long-term assignments in x, y, and z.”
      Good luck!

    11. CJ*

      It may help to put your two weeks notice in writing today (just for your own benefit, not to send in until you are ready) to help start to mentally show yourself that this job will have an end date. Once you start getting yourself in the mind frame of “these will not be my problems soon”, your remaining time at toxic job can get a lot more manageable until you feel ready to actually turn in that notice.

      I don’t have much advice on how to find your ideal job, except to remind you that your next step might not be perfect and that’s okay! You may not have a clear path and work may not be the most fulfilling thing in your life, and that’s okay too. What’s NOT okay is coming home routinely unable to eat or enjoy life outside of work due to the stress of your job. It sounds like a resume gap could be worth the trade off for your own improved mental health. I hope you are able to get out from under the toxic cloud and breathe easier soon.

      1. DB Cooper*

        I’m definitely going to put my notice in writing again to have handy… A couple of months ago I actually kept three envelopes in my desk in preparation for any time my boss would slip in to “visit” in case things went south. One for a cordial “I appreciate the opportunity” three week notice. One for a “due to the current environment” notice giving her 1-2 weeks depending on the day of the week I handed it to her. One for a “here’s my keys, lady, I’m out.”

        Writing the letter would definitely feel good. I already get through some days anyway simply by functioning as if I’m setting the place up for the next sucker in this role, instead of trying to do all the work to turn it around myself.

    12. Frankie*

      Oh man, as someone who was/is always afraid of job gaps, given your safety net I would quit.

      My last burnout situation isn’t as extreme as what you described–I don’t think I really recovered from it until months into my next job. And while I had that job I didn’t get much else done in my life, I would go home and veg so much and I feel like I sort of lost some personal time there, too. Not to mention the health impacts.

      If you can afford it, take some time. I would look into temp work and focus on using those jobs as a way to explore other types of work to find what you like. Or part time gigs, whatever you end up finding. I grew my understanding of what I’m good at and like to do over several years in a few different jobs.

      As someone above said, don’t think too hard about the personality tests. Finding actual job tasks/skills/motivations is going to be better information for you.

    13. Beta*

      Considering they are planning for an upcoming layoff, maybe you want to negotiate a severance package. They might say it’s not company policy for voluntary quitting, but if you pull the FMLA card and say working on your own health… they will most probably work out a severance package as keeping the job open for 3 months with guaranteed job after that will not work in their favor. You can ask for medical benefits for 3-6 months and a severance package (2-3 weeks for every year worked is common).

      1. DB Cooper*

        Honestly, one of the things that have kept me from leaving already is the possibility of severance. Of course, they prefer to find ways to fire people for performance to save money, and there’s nothing imminent, only threats. And right now I really find myself struggling with stubbornly (and miserably) hanging on in hopes they’ll pay me to go away. Just the character implications of what it would say about me to refuse to leave an unhealthy situation I’m not fully invested in unless they give me some money on the way out the door, if that makes sense.

        The FMLA thing is an interesting angle, I’ve just never seen anyone get it approved without a major fight.

        1. Beta*

          Lookup FinancialSamurai blog. He wrote a book on how to negotiate a severence, there are also many posts on his site on how people negotiated their severence packages.

          1. DB Cooper*

            Thank you! I will look into that tonight for some inspiration. With layoffs on the horizon and my boss so open about how disappointed she is in me as a “former high-impact player,” maybe she would welcome the chance to be rid of me, and I’d be better off letter her know I’m open to it.

      2. Iris Eyes*

        How would you frame/start that conversation? I know I wouldn’t even know where to start.

    14. wondHRland*

      If you have vacation time available, schedule it, and then use it to recharge and begin the job hunt. reflect on what you want to do, and what is important to you in your next role (i.e. stability, flexibility, vacation, culture, etc). write these things down to remind you and cement them in your brain. that way, as you’re interviewing companies (note, you’re interviewing them as much as they are you), you’re assessing them based on what you value. After the interview, take that list and score each opportunity/ make some notes about what you learned (good, bad, other), so that you can retain that information as you make decisions aobut offers.

      1. DB Cooper*

        Vacation requested… vacation denied, “due to our upcoming request blackouts, which you should already be aware of.”

        I’m definitely putting your reflection prompts to use though. Thank you. Barring (more) disaster, I should have one day off later this week, and I’m going to start two lists while I’m out of the grind and in a good headspace — what I’m looking for in any temp/short-term role I’d take immediately after I’m free from this company, and one for the longer term. I’ve never been a good long-term planner, so even thinking about it and writing it down will be a big help. Thank you so much.

  8. finicky*

    I’m sure this has come up many times before, so please feel free to just redirect me if it has, but I’m interested in what both interviewees and interviewers feel are good and bad interview questions.

    If you’re being interviewed, what questions do you dread being asked (I can’t stand “What’s your biggest weakness?” and “Where do you see yourself in five years?”)? What questions do you like being asked or wish you were asked more often? What questions do you like to ask of the people interviewing you?

    If you’re an interviewer, what are your go-to questions that actually elicit useful information? Are there questions that you’re required to ask as part of your hiring process that you hate having to ask, or that you see colleagues asking that you think are just dumb? What questions do you like to be asked by candidates?

    1. k8isgreat*

      Ugh, the five year question. Last time I got that I just honestly said I didn’t have one and life throws way too many curve balls to try and plan that far ahead. I got the job, so there’s that.

      1. Dragoning*

        I think it’s especially garbage to younger people. I’m still pretty new to the workforce! I have no idea what options are even available yet, let alone which I’d like to pursue!

        1. LaDeeDa*

          I have posted this a few times in the comments section– this is my stock answer to the 5 yr or career path question- and each time I have personally used it people get so excited about it…
          “I am more interested in finding the right culture and team than defining a strict career path. I think that when you find the right fit opportunities and development which I might never have thought of present themselves!”

          1. Zephy*

            That’s a really good answer to the 5 year question. Especially in the last few years, I’ve found it hard to even imagine what life will be like in 5 months – I honestly can’t think that far ahead.

          3. Amethyst*

            NICE! My answer has always been “stability”, especially within the last 7 years. I come from a background rife with instability, so to have that in my life would be fantastic. Prior to that, I think my 5 year plan answer was “to grow; learn everything I can _about industry_, & hopefully I can stay here for as long as possible. I can’t guarantee that; life has a funny way of wrecking your plans.” (Interviewers usually half-smiled in knowing agreement here, which was great.)

        2. Tau*

          I sympathise! My answer to the five year question for my first job was something along the lines of: “Honestly, since I’m just starting out, I really don’t know enough about the industry and the directions my career could go in to be able to answer that question. My main goal right now is to learn about all the different aspects of the job to get a better picture of what’s possible. You could say my one-year goal is to know where I want to be in five years!” It seemed to make a fairly good impression.

      2. Kittymommy*

        I had a friend tell me they were interviewing some guy at his work for an entry level job (retail o think) and this was asked. The guy said “not in jail I hope”. I mean, yeah, but maybe not for an interview.

      2. Aud*

        It’s a terrible question, but I focus on how what I like about my hobbies relates to my work style. “In my free time I like to cook or knit. Both activities offer a challenge and require a combination of technical skill as well as creativity and/or problem solving.”

        Quick, shows some personality, ties back to what any interviewer actually cares about.

        1. Dragoning*

          I have actually been hired on the strength of my hobbies before.

          Probably not by very good interviewers.

        2. Iris Eyes*

          Knitting also trains you to be able to spot inconsistencies and error in large data sets, and regularly confronts you with risk/benefit analysis when something does go wrong.

          1. Aud*

            Oh this is brilliant, just yesterday I had to unravel 3700 stitches because I misread a pattern (I’m making my first sweater and went with a fair isle design, because I’m ambitious to a fault) and when the unravelling was done, my stitches were twisted. I basically had to knit backwards for a row so it would look right, and I had to be able to spot at a glance that it was wrong. I’m job hunting this summer and am so using this, thanks!

            1. Iris Eyes*

              Nice! And see knowing that you didn’t have to frog another row but came up with a solution that fixed the problem more efficiently.

              Good luck with your project! And the job hunt :)

      3. RabbitRabbit*

        My team asked a variation on this – basically “Tell us about your career path.” It worked great with hiring our AVP (our grand-boss). We were part of the interview process on the last two candidates; let’s say we work in llama breeding and veterinary regulatory oversight.

        One described her pathway around alpaca research, then into llama handling, then leading a division that did llama breeding, and talked about how her role was starting to get loaded with things like llama feed budgeting and all kinds of additional roles that she wasn’t interested in. And she knew she didn’t know a lot about the nuts-and-bolts of the regulatory oversight but did have to follow those rules herself and felt she could learn.

        The second candidate had worked in llama breeding and regulatory oversight for years. Her description of her career progress was she would get a call from someone she knew who would tell her about the disaster their llama ranch was in with regulatory issues and how they needed help, and she would come in and clean house and set up the regs and processes, and then get kind of complacent. Then a few years after she changed jobs, someone else would call her about a similar problem at their ranch, and off she’d go and happily dive in and fix problems.

        And there wasn’t any “but you know, I’m getting bored with all of the putting-out-of-fires work” or “but now I’d like to settle in” and our llama regulatory division was solid (needing some reorg/streamlining, but very well-oiled in general and quite engaged) and not a disaster, and her interviewing with people from the C-suite down should have conveyed that, or at least the level immediately above us would definitely have done so.

        We worried her response meant we’d be doing this all over again in a few years, or that she might change things for the sake of change. So us underlings filled out the impressions sheet and noted that concern, and the first candidate was hired. And she’s been great, and stands up for us, and tries to make changes only when it seems like there’s a real reason.

        1. RabbitRabbit*

          That should be “tell us about your career path to this point, including how this position would fit into it.” Not a “5 years” question.

          1. Dragoning*

            I’m 26–half of my “career path” s far has been in retail! And a lot of the other stuff on my resume is unpaid work. I still don’t have a good answer for this question!

            1. RabbitRabbit*

              You could reframe it as discussing the tools you picked up along the way, perhaps. Things that might feel awkward to put on a CV or not really stand out. Mention how you became the go-to person to send tough customers to and how you managed to talk down the majority while making them feel good, or how you picked up dealing with a complex inventory system and were frequently the one who saw the discrepancies and worked out the problems.

        2. Fortitude Jones*

          Yeah, I always answer this question like your first candidate did. I don’t really talk about personal stuff I do outside of work unless I’m specifically asked, “What do you like to do for fun outside of work to alleviate stress?” My soon-t0-be grandboss asked me during our interview, “What are you currently reading?” I told him some cheesy romance novel, and it ended up with us discussing my own professional writing (I’m a published fiction writer), comparative literature, and films. At that point, I think he was just interviewing me for general fit seeing as though my direct manager sent him and my HR rep a glowing review about me and wanted to know how soon I could start! LOL.

      4. Tau*

        I think this may be more valuable if your CV raises any sorts of questions. For instance, in my case I got a PhD and then went and got an entry-level job in a not-super-related area. “Tell me about yourself…” allows me to explain that and smooth over any concerns that one day I’ll jump ship for academia. I’d imagine it can play a similar role if your work history has any other unusual features (many short-term stays, field switches, a recent gap where you weren’t working, etc.) Basically, it lets you create a narrative around your professional past that will let your interviewers see where (and that) this new job would fit, in case your CV doesn’t do that already.

        1. Fortitude Jones*

          Basically, it lets you create a narrative around your professional past that will let your interviewers see where (and that) this new job would fit, in case your CV doesn’t do that already.

          This. When you look at my resume, for example, the positions I’ve held don’t appear to correlate much (I’ve changed fields three times now). However, whenever I’m asked this question (and it’s usually the first thing everyone asks), I get to explain that I’m a writer first and foremost and though I’ve changed fields a few times, the through line between these careers have been intensive writing requirements. Then, my experience suddenly makes sense and fits together.

    3. Nessun*

      I never got the hang of the “five years” question – I tend towards a head-cocked-to-the-side “uh…still working?” Honestly, every great opportunity I’ve had was organic and sudden (weird combination, I know), so I don’t plan for these things, I just look out for them. No answer I’ve ever given or could give at any point in my career would have been accurate, so I just really don’t like that question.

      1. Sarah Simpson*

        I always say that by then I want to be really great at this job by then and finding other ways to contribute to the success of the organization. It sounds cheesy, but so far I’ve gotten the jobs. I also am in a position where I can add that I’ve really found my niche and will continue to look for ways to make things better. I can let them know I’m not looking for the next step up necessarily, but also won’t just settle in and coast.

    4. Sherm*

      As interviewee and interviewer, I do hate “What’s your biggest weakness?” Many otherwise honest people will simply lie. Plenty of others will have blinders on and are not aware of their real weaknesses. Somethings are just not possible: Sorry, you can’t fly to the moon by flapping your arms. Sorry, you (usually) can’t find out someone’s biggest weakness by asking them.

      I actually like “Where do you see yourself in five years?” We all have a direction — let’s see if that direction aligns with the company’s needs/goals.

      Although I completely see the value in asking “Tell me a time when…” questions, I would dread them, because I would totally blank on the spot, and then 5 minutes after the interview, I would come up with a perfect example.

      I appreciate the ubiquitous “Tell me about yourself” at the start of the interview. It gives me time to take a breath, reduce my heart rate from 120 bpm, and warm into the interview.

      1. I Just Work Here*

        I like to phrase the five year question as more of a “Where do you see yourself at the company in the future?” or “How does this job at this company fit into your future goals?” That questions usually helps weed out the people with wildly inappropriate thoughts. You aren’t going to be president of the company in five years. Sorry, you just aren’t. If you don’t know, that’s fine! I’d would rather hire someone with no direction than someone who is going to be bugging me in six months about promotions and pay raises.

        I really like when candidates ask me what I like about my job and what I like about working for my company.
        I also really like when people ask about what the day to day looks like for that role, and then repeats it back to me later in a way that shows they don’t have insane expectations about what the role itself is.

      2. Windchime*

        For the “biggest weakness” question, I answer that honestly with something that really is a weakness but not a fatal one. So something like, “Well, I am acquainted with [programming language] but not as proficient as I’d like to be”. Or “I wish I knew a little more about running SQL traces; I’ve had a little experience but not as much as I might like.” But only if [programming language] or SQL traces aren’t *required expert level* for the job. I mostly think people are just looking for an honest assessment that the candidate realizes they aren’t perfect.

    5. Anastasia Beaverhousen*

      The weakness question is the worst. What are you honestly expecting a candidate to say here – like “Well I’m both stupid and lazy, so it’s hard to decide”?? A completely transparent “I”m too much of a perfectionist”? The answers will always be pretty useless to this question.

      Personally, I hate “Tell me about the worst job you’ve ever had.” Because, well… I *have* had a pretty awful job, one where I’m fairly sure the working conditions were straight-up illegal and the general atmosphere reminded me of a cult, but I can’t exactly say that in an interview, now can I? Not without sounding like I’m ‘badmouthing a past employer’. Which makes me sound unprofessional. But the alternative is to lie. I don’t like either of those options.

      Questions I like being asked are ones that are relevant to the position/my experience – “tell me about a time you XXX”, or “how would you resolve XXX issue.”

      I’ve only been on the interviewer side while at the extremely toxic job. We were required to ask candidates how they would manage a team of x number of poor performers, y number of middling performers, and z number of high performers, and then condescendingly explain ‘well what we *actually* do is…’. I hated it because it was irrelevant and felt like a veiled threat to fire anyone who wasn’t immediately successful.

      1. IL JimP*

        I like asking the weakness question a little differently. “If I asked your last manager, what would she say were a few things you need to work on to improve?”

        I’m looking to see if they can be a little self-reflective but also looking to see what they’re actually doing to work on those things.

        For example: “my manager would say I need to work on my organizational skills because sometimes I get too caught up with all my tasks and get overwhelmed. What I’ve been doing to work on that is I took a class on organizational management, shadowed a person on my team that is really good at it and implemented feedback from my manager.”

        1. Just Another Manic Millie*

          [quote]I like asking the weakness question a little differently. “If I asked your last manager, what would she say were a few things you need to work on to improve?”[/quote]
          If I were asked this, I would suspect a trap, so I would smile and say, “Gee, when I gave her two weeks notice, she became very upset and asked if there was any way I could change my mind and continue to work there. When I said no, it was as if all the air went out of her balloon. So I don’t know what improvements she thought I needed.”

      2. Marvel*

        You know, I actually DO use “I’m too much of a perfectionist”–but only because it actually is my biggest flaw, for several reasons: 1) I’m very hard on myself and I need frequent positive feedback from others in order to feel like I’m doing a good job, 2) I am excessively detail-oriented and sometimes get hung up on details that don’t really matter, losing sight of the big picture in the process, which leads to wasting time or prioritizing poorly, and 3) this is an example of #2 right now because there is no third thing, but it would sound so much neater if there were, so I can’t stop trying to think of one even though that’s totally unnecessary.

        I usually introduce it with a joking “this will sound like a cop-out, but hear me out,” and then explain it just that way followed by a brief summary of what I’ve done to mitigate some of these issues. I feel like I’ve gotten positive responses. But maybe I sound totally out of touch? I don’t know.

    6. ExceptionToTheRule*

      I hate the 5 year question to, so I started asking people how they see the job they’re interviewing for fitting into their career development. There’s not really a “right” answer as far as I’m concerned. I’m curious about how people see their careers developing and can use the answer to highlight additional things we can offer to advance people’s goals.

    7. Q without U*

      As an interviewer, one of my go-to questions is, “What are your most favorite and least favorite job duties?”, for their current position or the position on their resume most closely related to what they’re applying for. We get so much good information from this, and it often leads us to elaborate on parts of the job we might not have fully discussed yet.

      1. Data Analyst*

        Yes, love this one. Gets a much more candid and useful answer than strength/weakness.

    8. Fake Old Converse Shoes (not in the US)*

      I’d LOVE to be asked about perks. Which would be something nice to have, which ones would be dealbeakers or which one is the one perk that would make me consider leaving my current job. For example, a nice discount at a local gym or coffee capsules would be appreciated, and I would love to be able to work from home at least one day.

    9. Jadelyn*

      I particularly like the “tell me about a time when” type of interview questions (as an interviewer). Not only the response, but the way they approach the response, whether they have something prepared for that specific scenario or not, how thoughtful their response is, all of that nets me useful information. Even if the response is “I’ve never run across that exact scenario, but I’ve run across something similar where XYZ/hypothetically, I’d do ABC, because…” that tells me something about how flexible they are at making connections between related-ish scenarios and/or problem-solving on the fly.

      I find the “greatest strengths/weaknesses” questions to be both the most annoying as a candidate, and the most useless as an interviewer. Too many people have been coached to “find a weakness that’s actually a strength and present it that way” and will respond with some variation on “I’d say I work too hard/care too much/etc”, or use that question to swing back into the hard sell.

    10. S-Mart*

      For manager-level interviews only: I like to ask how their management changes for particularly high performers and for particularly low performers. I’ve found so many candidates have no idea how to answer at least half of the question. I’m not looking for any secret right answer, but I’ve found more wrong (or non) answers than I ever expected to.

    11. Pinky Lady*

      I just got asked in an interview: How do you like to be managed, and how do you manage (or plan to manage) others?

      Might be my favorite I’ve ever been asked.

    12. ManageHer*

      One of my favorite questions to ask as an interview, especially for entry-level folks, is “Tell me about your favorite project you’ve ever worked on”.

      Even people who aren’t great interviewers often light up when talking about something they loved working on. Quite often with entry-level candidates the favorite project won’t be on their resume, but will be highly relevant to the job. Other times it becomes clear that the parameters of the job I’m hiring for cannot accommodate something that’s important to the candidate (example: We’re hiring for customer service and their favorite project was data entry because they hate talking to customers.)

      I always follow it up by asking the reverse “And what’s your least-favorite project you’ve ever worked on?”.

      It’s not uncommon to hear a least-favorite project that actually makes up 70% of the job we’re hiring for. Or badmouthing managers. I’ve had candidates tell me that they didn’t enjoy a project because they were smarter than the person who assigned it. On the other hand, I sometimes hear that a candidate for a customer-facing position hates data entry because they want to be on the phone with customers, or maybe they just need clear context on how their work affects customers in order to enjoy it.

      Like any good interview question, there isn’t really a “right” answer to these. But it’s so easy to tell which candidates will actually enjoy the work when you ask these.

      1. S-Mart*

        I ask the first one, and generally get good mileage out of it. Not as much as I expected when I started asking it, but enough to continue using it. I never thought to ask your follow-up, I should consider adding it to my list.

    13. CMart*

      I’ve never been asked something along the lines of “is there anything not on your resume that you think makes you a strong candidate” (other than “anything else you’d like us to know” which is usually way too general and too late in the interview to mean the same thing) but I would honestly have loved that as an entry level/early career job seeker.

      A lot of things I think I’m quite good at and make me a valuable employee are incredibly hard to get across on a resume – interpersonal skills, being able to pinpoint where confusion is coming from between people or systems and clarify it in understandable ways, seeing the “big picture” underlying small transactional tasks etc…

    14. InfoSec SemiPro*

      I’m mostly focused on “Can this person be managed well in our environment?” when I’m interviewing someone – other people do the technical interviews.

      In addition to the “tell me a story when…” questions around skills for dealing with building trust quickly and learning quickly, I like to ask about what candidates have most enjoyed or thrived from in previous environments, and what most frustrated or hampered them. I like to ask what motivates them, what makes them feel appreciated, when have they done their best work previously.

      My roles have a lot of flexibility and personal discretion, but the environment is (predictably) pretty fast changing and can be chaotic. Some people, who have lovely skills and are great humans, will not be well supported under those conditions. Some people enjoy public positive feedback, some don’t like that spotlight and prefer more personal kudos – I can do either, but I like knowing. I like getting a look at the candidate’s self awareness – have they thought about what drives their own productivity or are we going to do some experimenting? If the candidate is really motivated by things I can’t provide, that may not be the best hire. If a candidate is motivated by the same things as my other staff, that might set up scarcity of what “choice projects” means, and cause friction where I don’t need any. (I like being able to give everyone work they think of as “the best project” or at least “really good work” … which means my team needs to have a variety of perspectives of what “the really good work” is.)

      This is useful for figuring out what the training plan is to get a new staff member to full productivity – and figuring out if the team has appropriate training resources available. I have made the choice to hire candidate A over B because the resources A needed to get up to speed were more available right then than what B would need.

    15. Mellow cello*

      The question I always ask when I’m being interviewed is what the negatives are of a position / workplace. Firstly, because it’s important information I want in order to make a decision about accepting a job offer! But also because it gives me a feel for whether the staff / organisation are honest and realistic.

      The best job I ever had was very upfront about negatives of the position / workplace. None of issues were dealbreakers, they were very common in the industry, they didn’t try to sugarcoat or hide things and they had strategies to minimise their negative effect. It reflected my overall great experience when I worked there – forthright, straightforward and supportive.

      On the other hand, asking about negatives helped me dodge a huge bullet by declining a position at a prestigious organisation that just felt odd during the interview process. They clinched it with their answer that there was nothing negative about their workplace and that they all loved it there and loved each other and pushed out people who didn’t feel the same way and didn’t fit in. I’ve never been so relieved to withdraw my candidacy!

    16. Echo*

      The questions I use to get at people’s actual weaknesses are “what’s an area where you’d like to grow/develop/learn more in this role?” and questions about work environments/tasks they do and don’t prefer. That will give you a sense of whether someone would be frustrated with being in a job that has a lot of client interaction, a lot of independent/self-directed work, a lot of writing, etc.

      But none of these are gotchas! In general, a thing that frustrates me about interviewing is that bad interviewers have trained candidates to think they need to get the “right” answer to questions. There are some wrong answers (“I want to develop [main competency needed in role] because I’ve never used it before” or “I struggle in environments where I’m supporting other people’s projects rather than leading my own”) but no specific right one. I’m interviewing to get an idea of what working with this person would be like, and whether they’d be happy in our environment. It’s actually completely fine to have weaknesses and the interview really should be an opportunity to figure out if your mix of skills is compatible with what the role needs. (At this point, I’d probably proactively bring up my own weaknesses in a hypothetical interview because any environment that asks me to use those skill areas all the time would be bad for me!)

      But unfortunately as one of today’s letters exemplifies, a lot of interviewers really do think there’s a ‘right answer’ and are just trying to catch candidates out on missing a gotcha answer. I hate it! It leads to so much unnecessary anxiety for candidates and the idea that candidates are in a subordinate/supplicating position to their interviewer. Ugh.

      1. Echo*

        I meant to say “I struggle in environments where I’m supporting other people’s projects rather than leading my own” is a bad answer because the specific job I interview for is a junior position that does project support – this isn’t a bad answer generally.

    17. Baby Helicopter*

      I think the “five year” question can be more relevant in some positions than in others, generally if the field is one that commonly requires specific certifications that require a certain number of years/hours of practical experience. For instance, I work for a small consulting firm and we have recently been interviewing for a junior position that would ideally be filled by someone with an educational background in engineering. Many people with engineering degrees choose to (or, depending on their discipline, have to) pursue a Professional Engineer (PE) certification. Many do not, as it’s not required for many technical positions that sold with engineering backgrounds get hired into. It takes a minimum of five years of working under a Professional Engineer (in addition to other things) to be eligible to take the Professional Engineer exam. However, we don’t have a PE on staff. We’ve been using the five year question as a way to gauge whether the candidates are going to be more driven toward getting that certification in the near future (in which case they may not be a good fit for the position since we can’t offer the mentorship that would require) or if they are looking more for a broad experience in the overall field we consult in, which we can. It has seemed to give us a better impression of what the candidate is looking for as far as professional development than just asking “so you gonna get your PE?” But this is a pretty specific example and certainly doesn’t cover how ubiquitous that question seems to be in general.

    18. Policy Wonk*

      My favorite question to ask, after all the usual questions about work experience relevant to the job is this: If I hire you, what can you do for me? Why you over the other applicants? I have gotten some very interesting answers that tell me a lot about the applicants.

    19. Existentialista*

      As someone being interviewed, I’ve had great success with the question, “Hiring Manager, in the first 3-6 months, how will this position help you to fulfill YOUR goals?” You should see the way people beam when asked this.

      As someone interviewing others, we’ve uncovered some red flags for otherwise attractive candidates by asking one of these two: “Tell us about a time when you faced frustration in your job, and how you handled it?” or “Tell us about a time when you had to work with someone you personally disliked?”

    20. Kat in VA*

      I wish that in my line of work (executive assistant), interviewers would spend more time telling me the executive(s’) style of working and less about the job itself. The admin functions of the job tend to be the same (scheduling, reporting, travel, events, etc.) but the executive is the wild card.

      I wish that interviewers would let me know what kind of person they are – do they function autonomously and handle their stuff or do they use you as an emotional tampon when they’re flipping out? Are they laid-back or do they pace nervously like a puppy looking for a place to pee when they’re waiting on you to do something? Do they text over the weekend, email at 02:00AM, yell when they’re pissed off?

      I know most of these answers will never, ever be given by interviewers (and the more obnoxious the exec, the more veiled the commentary of their management style is). But well-worn tropes like “fast paced”, “demanding”, and “high energy” are really just “run you into the ground”, “asshole”, and “drama queen” cloaked in corporate-speak.

      (Sorry, I was highly annoyed at something I discovered WRT compensation on Friday and clearly I’m still sore about it)

  9. Toxic waste*

    There was talk from HR that my coworker and I might be let go once the new software program is up and running. (There is no need for two people.) Coworker has been with the company for 15 years, I’ve only been there for a year. Coworker is well-known and very liked, I’m quiet and I don’t think they like me much. I have more degrees and technical experience, coworker doesn’t.

    My (new) boss mentioned that they wanted to get rid of someone, but she “fought for us”, but then she’ll say that they still need to cut someone because they need money for something else. I don’t know if it’s us, but it’s very stressful. It just feels like it’s a constant threat.

    Any advice?

    1. A Simple Narwhal*

      I’d recommend job hunting, just in case you do end up on the chopping block. Can’t hurt to be prepared!

      And if you’re worried about how the short length of your stay might appear, there’s absolutely nothing wrong with telling the truth, that you’ve heard your position might be eliminated once a new software system is implemented, no one will hold that against you.

      I think having a plan in place will help eliminate some stress. I know it’s no fun working with a sword of damacles over you, but knowing you aren’t just passively waiting for something to happen (or not!) can be a great relief.

    2. lindsay*

      Start job hunting. It’s really inappropriate that your boss is making you feel unsure but maybe she is trying to give you fair warning. It sounds like if they do get rid of someone, unless your colleague volunteers, it’s going to be you. Best to be prepared.

    3. CatCat*

      Plan to leave. Work on making that plan happen. Get your resume polished up, your references in order, and tap into your professional network. I was working in a stressful place and just knowing, “Yep, I’m definitely leaving” and working on the plan to do that helped relieve some of the stress.

    4. Anonymous Educator*

      For all you know, both you and your co-worker could both be let go. Definitely start looking for a job now.

    5. Jules the 3rd*

      Start job hunting, but also look into whether there’s other projects in that dept that you could work on.

    7. Anono-me*

      Seconding the recommendation to start job hunting.
      It sounds to me like the boss is trying to give you a heads up without violating any company secrets she is expected to keep right now. (Actually it sounds like you both should be starting to job hunt if she’s telling you both this, maybe the PTB don’t I think they even need one person to run this new program and are planning on getting by with a couple hours a day from someone else.)

      1. Kat in VA*

        This. So so so much this. She’s all but telling you that you’ll be out of a job soon, possibly both of you, but backtracking with the “fought for you” comment so she has plausible deniability.

        Job hunt, now.

    8. Former Retail Manager*

      Start job searching immediately, if you haven’t already. In my experience, the incumbent almost always prevails, especially if they are well-liked and you either aren’t liked or an unknown entity to the decision makers. I think your boss might be walking a fine line of trying to tip you off to start looking without breaching her duty of confidentiality if she knows that you’ll likely be let go. Best of luck and much sympathy. These situations suck, but apply to at least one job a day, more if you have the time, and before you know it you’ll be moving on to something better.

    9. Rusty Shackelford*

      Your degrees and technical experience won’t matter if a) Coworker can do the job without those qualifications, and b) they aren’t needed anywhere else in the organization. I’d start looking.

      1. A Bag of Jedi Mind Tricks*

        Get your resume polished up and start job hunting. Also, if you can afford to do so, start putting aside a little more money in your savings to help tide you over IF you do happen to get let go before you find another job.

    10. Seeking Second Childhood*

      It sounds to me like your manager is fishing for a volunteer — ie if an employee is near retirement or starting up a business or moving to follow a spouse’s transfer. Or if an employee simply wants a long stretch of time off with a good layoff plan….once in a while companies will offer increased layoff packages to voluntary departures.
      It can’t *hurt* to get started on a job hunt — you’ve been there a year, your company is talking about layoffs, so why not call a recruiter or three and see what is out there. You can also ask about internal transfers given the rumors.
      GOOD LUCK!

    11. Not One of the Bronte Sisters*

      I don’t think your boss is threatening you–I think she’s being kind enough to give you a head’s up. You and your coworker might both be let go, but it seems highly likely that you will be. I would thank her, tell her you think you will dust off your resume and ask if you may use her as a reference.

  10. Anon for this*

    There was recently an opening for a management position in my department. I applied for it, as did a coworker, Jane, but an external candidate ended up getting the job. The person who got the job isn’t starting for several weeks, so in the meantime, Jane and I were asked to fill in for the new manager (normally, just one person would do this, but since we are in our busy season right now, we need two people).

    This type of thing is often considered kind of an audition for management, so there are pretty clear implications about how this will play into the next management opening. Jane has always been really full of herself, but she has taken it up a notch now that she’s officially an interim manager. I’m not sure how, exactly, she’s doing this, but she is making sure everyone in the company knows of her new/temporary management status.

    I went into this knowing that it would be, in some sense, a competition between Jane and me, but I figured I would simply do a good job and let my work speak for itself. Jane is making this very difficult. She is really good at inserting herself into everything. If I am working on something or handling a problem, she will swoop in, take over, and get the credit for it. She is truly a master at this. One time, I was working on something and I went to a meeting and when I got out of the meeting, she had taken over. Another time, I was working on something and she went to a meeting and told everyone that she was in charge of it, and then people started calling her about it instead of me. She has publicly announced that she is going to make our team finish a project (which is hopelessly behind schedule) by the end of the busy season. I’ve helped them with this project far more than she has, and they’ll continue to need my help to finish it, but she has now positioned herself to get all the credit for it.

    Our desks are right next to each other, and people will walk past me, completely ignoring me, to ask her about something that I have been working on. Sometimes, people will ask me to relay a message to her about something that I am working on but she has told them she is in charge of it. One time, our boss came in, asking for an update on a crisis I was handling, while she was in the bathroom, and I gave him an update, but half an hour later, he called Jane to ask her about it, even though the only information she knew was what I told her about it. Everyone either ignores me or treats me like I’m her assistant.

    I don’t know what to do because I can’t compete with her ability to get attention. I am an introvert and I don’t even particularly like attention, but I can’t stand watching her take all of the credit for everything while my potential for advancement slips away. Her ploy seems really obvious to me, but it’s clear that everyone is buying into it and thinks she’s awesome and I’m worthless. I really don’t think it has anything to do with my performance or competence because I am generally highly regarded in my regular job, but it feels as though people think I have suddenly become an idiot who can’t be trusted to do anything. If I say anything, it will look like I’m just jealous of her awesomeness, and I’m the one who’s trying to look important and take all the credit. Am I just not cut out for management?

    1. CupcakeCounter*

      Quit giving Jane any more information that she needs to know and speak up if she says something incorrectly.

      2. M*

        OP is formally job sharing, if they freeze Jane out of information about projects that formally they’re both leading, it’s going be really, really easy for Jane to spin as a major problem with OP’s management style and team-playership.

        Definitely speak up, though, that side of things is necessary advice.

    2. lindsay*

      Oh my goodness this sounds incredibly frustrating! The one good thing here is that neither of you got this job, so while she may be trying to position herself to be management down the road, it won’t be now, so you still have time to show how valuable you are!

      Do you have a good relationship with grand-boss? This might be a good time to ask for a sit-down, explain what you’ve been working on, and ask how you can better position yourself to be a leader in the future. I think behind the scenes one-on-one will really help.

      1. New Job So Much Better*

        Or maybe there is no external candidate, and at the end of the time he or Jane will actually get the job.

        1. Anon for this*

          There is an external candidate; we’ve met him. He has legit reasons for the delayed start date, and he has already bought a house here, so I am pretty confident this is a temporary situation and he’ll start in a few weeks as planned.

      1. RecoveringSWO*

        Yup. If you feel uncomfortable stopping a meeting or conversation to address it, try to pull her aside immediately after for a “what the hell…” conversation. By not saying anything, you’re making this easy for Jane who isn’t seeing any negative repercussion. Even if she doesn’t respond ideally, there’s at least some friction for her actions compared to before.
        Confrontation isn’t fun, but having hard conversations with people is a part of management, both in guiding subordinates and standing up for your team among other managers (more like this scenario). Think of it as good practice for future management.

    4. A Simple Narwhal*

      Jane sucks.

      I’d recommend bringing this up to your boss. Not in a complainy, Jane-is-a-big-wad type of way (though she certainly is), but in a “this is affecting my ability to do my job successfully, how can we address this” kind of way. Bring up all of the examples you laid out, being sure to do it objectively and free of emotional description.

      Sorry you have to deal with this, hopefully it will be resolved when the new manager starts, but it is absolutely worth bringing up to your boss now, since this may lay the groundwork for your success down the road.

      1. Anon for this*

        I’ve thought about bringing it up to my manager, but I’m worried that I’m just going to look petty. I asked for this opportunity and he gave it to me, and I’m afraid it’s not going to look good if I complain to him about it in any way, especially when I’m asking for management responsibilities and I can’t even handle a dispute with a peer. Also, he is extremely busy with a special project outside of our department, and it’s very hard to get his time or attention at all right now, even for something as simple as approving some routine reports I submitted last week, so I don’t think he’d be happy to spend his time on this. Plus, I known she would just say she’s trying to help and just make sure that everything is taken care of, because she’s so responsible.

        I went to another coworker this week (someone I consider a work friend, and who has also been victim to Jane’s credit-stealing, so I thought he would be sympathetic) and asked for his insight on why everyone is acting like she’s in charge and I’m her assistant, and he was extremely snippy with me (which is very unlike him) and acted like I was being ridiculous. A few days later, he went to her and asked about something I was working on. He was looking directly at her with his back turned to me, and I said, “Well, actually, I was working on that…” and he turned around and rolled his eyes and said, “Oh, God, this again? I was asking both of you. How am I supposed to know who was working on it? I’m getting really tired of this crap.” This is someone I thought would be on my side because he knows how she works, and he’s acting like I’m crazy, so I’m afraid of how I will sound to someone who doesn’t see what she’s doing and just thinks she has a lot of gumption.

        1. ket*

          I’m really sorry to hear about this, Anon, and I’m going to disagree with a lot of other coworkers and call you out on something I see in myself, because I see it in myself. If it doesn’t apply to you, throw away this internet comment!

          You see a lot of this very clearly, and other parts not clearly. Bringing this to your manager will seem petty, and it will make him think you can’t handle management. Jane will look good, and you’ll look like you can’t share your toys.

          While Jane is probably not ready for management (as other posts say), she’s doing the work of getting visibility for her projects, getting visibility for herself, getting people to talk to her, etc. You’re not! You’re “letting good work speak for itself”. Ah! That’s me! Trying to just do good work & not do the schmooze. What a fail, for me personally. The feeling of betrayal I felt when I didn’t even get acknowledged from the stage by the guy MCing the event I almost single-handedly put on… and then I didn’t get the permanent version of the job either……. ugh. Part of the job of managing is advocating and representing your group, your division, your employees, your work. And you’re not doing that. You are not showing that you can do that. In the fight for corporate resources, you’d be the manager who couldn’t get their employees the recognition award or a larger slice of the bonus pool. I’m trying to be harsh here, because you are representing Jane’s actions as underhanded credit-stealing — and while they might be that, they also show a strength that she has that you don’t, frankly, because you think it’s a bad thing.

          I urge you to reconsider your feelings, your story, about what Jane is doing. Is it annoying? F*** yeah. But she’s also doing something that you’re unable to do, and you’re upset because you feel like she’s not fighting fair. Where are these feelings coming from? Why do you think there are rules to how this should be done?

          A number of other commenters suggest saying, as you did, “Well, actually, I’m working on that…” And you’ll get the response that you did: eye-rolling followed by omg she’s so petty. No. You cannot say “Actually…”. You cannot say, “Give me back my project! I was playing with it first! This isn’t faaaaair!” You need to take control without asking or explaining. You need to enlarge your presence, get comfortable just stating things and talking over people for a moment if necessary. Don’t ‘explain’ that you’re really in charge, really. No one believes an explanation like that, on some primal level. Primate level. Mammalian level. This truly is a mammalian dominance standoff, and Jane is winning not with her intellect but by her signaling that she’s in charge. You need to start taking up that space instead. Instead of, “Well, actually…..” you walk over confidently and sit on Jane’s desk (ha!) and say, “I was talking with the vendor from Acme about ten minutes ago and we’re going to….”

          If you want to get Machiavellian, you start saying things like, “Jane, that’s so sweet that you’re helping out on this project! We’re going to move forward to…” “Jane, I really appreciate you pitching in! The next step is to….” “Jane, thanks so much for your help — Shantal will be taking over that part so that you can go back to your own projects. Now, ….” “You’re such a team player, Jane. It’s time to ….”

          This is really uncomfortable, Anon, and it’s a replay of junior high dominance wars. Go watch Heathers and Mean Girls and then read about Habits 1, 2, and 4 in particular in “How Women Rise” by Sally Helgesen and Marshall Goldsmith.

      2. Anon for this*

        Oh, also, I’m also getting paid management salary while I’m in this temporary role, so I don’t want to sound ungrateful for the (temporary) promotion and raise. There has been talk of having two managers for every busy season from now on, and once the new manager is here, there will only be one temporary spot. Are they going to pick me for it after I’ve shown that I can’t work together with another manager and had to ask our boss to intervene?

    5. Bostonian*

      First of all, I think your company screwed up by putting 2 people “in charge” without a clear delineation of duties and responsibilities. That would be confusing and inefficient in most cases, even without the added layer of one of the people wanting to be in charge of anything.

      When it comes up, do as much record-setting as possible. For example, if someone asks you to relay info to Jane for something you’re working on: “Actually, that’s something that I’m working on. Thanks for the info.”

      I would try setting a clear line in the sand with Jane, too. Not in a “stop trying to control everything” way, but more of a “let’s be clear who’s taking care of what to prevent confusion and make sure we’re not duplicating efforts” way. Can you sit her down and say, “You handle A, B, C, and I’ll handle X, Y, Z”? (Based on what you’ve explained about Jane, I’m not hopeful she will stick to the plan. If it wouldn’t look adversarial to summarize the plan in an email and cc anyone who would need to know, that might make her stick to the plan.)

      Don’t let this shake your confidence about your potential for management! Keep in mind that what Jane is doing is performative, it’s not actually good management. She should want to split the duties with you in a way that makes sense for everyone.

      1. RecoveringSWO*

        Coming to management with both a problem and a proposed solution is always ideal. I think it would be a great idea for Anon to try and divvy up responsibilities with Jane like you proposed. Then, Anon could have a convo with boss asking for backup if/when Jane tries to encroach.

      2. The New Wanderer*

        Totally agree on all points. Company made a mistake, two people in one role only works if the assignments to each are clear. Since that’s not currently the case (due to Jane’s proactive swooping-in), then clarification needs to happen ASAP. And it will reflect well on OP to be the one to speak up about it. Particularly emphasize the confusion about “I had been working on X and suddenly* I found that all X things were directed to Jane, which limits my ability to complete the work effectively” (* or similar phrasing implying this just happened magically and not as a result of manipulation).

        It’s not a difference between introverts and extroverts, it’s a difference between someone playing by the rules and someone ‘adjusting’ the rules to benefit primarily themselves. Making the boundaries clear will help with the situation and make it more obvious if she keeps encroaching on your turf.

      3. Ask a Manager* Post author

        Yes, this. Frame it as “this is inefficient and we need to have a clear division of labor” and get her to agree to it, and then fill in your boss on what the plan is. And then call on it ASAP each time she moves in on your agreed-upon stuff.

      4. Pjm*

        Omg! I worked with Jane for 15 years. Seriously I could have written this same issue about my coworker. I did all the hard work while Ms. Bossy Pants took the credit and inserted herself into everything, whether it concerned her or not. She was the ultimate control freak. Looking back, I think I gave her way too much information. I wish I had said “I got it handled, thanks” rather than give her info she could use for manipulation purposes later. You must assert yourself! I was quiet too and answered her questions. You can still be professional and keep quiet whenever possible. Don’t give her any ammunition to work with if you can help it. And in meetings, you have to speak up and confront her immediately. I would say, “it sounds like you are trying to take cover my project which I am handling just fine, thanks. I’ll let you know if I need help.” Good luck!

      5. NoName*

        I work with a teammate who has similar tendencies, though they are not quite so brazen about it and don’t outright claim ownership of things that aren’t theirs. But they definitely insert themselves into everything and love being in the spotlight, and exclude people frequently and intentionally. And they demand and get a lot of resources that could be going to other projects owned by teammates.

        First, I think you have to call her on it. She does this right now because it works. Start adding barriers to her methods. “That’s my project, Jane, you can direct people to me for that.” “Jane, I was just working on that, it’s inefficient for two people to tackle it, I’m going to finish it.” I would even do it in meetings, honestly (politely, of course), even though it feels awful. You could even approach it directly with her privately, not because she’ll give you a straight answer, but to let her know she’s not going to keep getting away with it. If others mention Jane owning something you own, say “Oh, that’s a miscommunication, I’m actually handling that.”

        Do NOT try to out manipulate her–she has been doing this a long time and you will not outsmart her.

        Second, sit down with her and a manager and talk about inefficiencies and confusion. Cite projects you manage that people are going to Jane about, state that you’re not sure how the confusion is happening. Ask for clear delineations because the “up for grabs” approach is causing confusion (to others) and inefficiency. Give clear examples of the misunderstandings–and you can cite the bathroom example, because that’s pretty egregious. “I was working on this, went to the bathroom, and Jane started working on it. This seems inefficient.” And if your manager says it’s just being helpful, clarify that it’s really not–it’s more helpful to ask if someone even needs your help, it’s not so helpful to just take over something that’s in process without you knowing.”

        And honestly…is there a way you can bring this up more directly with your manager? This depends on your relationship, and it takes capital, but can you say something like, “I’m seeing a pattern here and it’s a barrier to my work, but I’m not sure if I’m misinterpreting something.”

        But to be honest, some of this won’t go away unless Jane goes away. People like that don’t really change their stripes, and their influence only lessens under the eye of a watchful manager, in my experience. I have learned to keep certain things closer to my vest than I would like to because, and only because, of this teammate. Is it possible that Jane will be your manager at some point? I would look into leaving if that happens. I also worked for a boss who worked us really hard and then took all the credit, and it’s demoralizing and not great for your career because your accomplishments don’t really get wider attention. There’s a bit more division between me and this teammate now and my job got a lot better.

        If you’re not already doing it, be very specific with your manager about what you are accomplishing, in case she’s snowing over your manager, too. If you don’t have a 1:1, set one up, and spend a fair amount of that time going over what you’ve accomplished in the last week.

        And then every time Jane takes credit for something you did, bring it up with your manager. “I noticed again that…” etc. etc. Make it about the work and clarity, not about painting Jane as a villain. But don’t let it pass by in silence, because then there’s no motivation to change her tactics. She won’t likely change, but she might realize the limits to what she can get away with and it will make your life a bit easier.

        But I love my job and this teammate is the main reason I would leave, if it came to that. You might be better off elsewhere.

    6. Autumnheart*

      The squeaky wheel gets the grease. Sad but true.

      Since this problem may well have an end date, when the actual manager starts and the two of you go back to a non-management role, then Jane may not have an opportunity to drive the narrative this way, and might even sabotage herself by trying to act like a manager when she isn’t.

      But you’ve been given a clear and resounding message on how your office culture operates. You work with a credit-stealer and ladder-climber, and it’s working for her. Even your boss is treating her like more of an authority on your work than you are. So! You could seek out some coaching or advice on how to be more of a horn-tooter for your own accomplishments, you could satisfy yourself with being seen as competent and reliable but not leadership material, you could wait for Jane to promote herself out of your immediate space so that you’re no longer being compared unfavorably to her, or you could leave and find a new job where you’re not dealing with a Jane.

    7. Jules the 3rd*

      There’s also some authority in being the one doing the work assignments – the project that you’ve been working on, send regular note to the relevant people (your boss + other exec stakeholders) with tasks and progress. Start the first one with ‘here’s what the team and I have done so far (2 – 3 sentences)’ and end with ‘I will let you know continued progress.’

      Make sure you own your projects in the documentation, and that you present project updates. Practice at home, ‘Actually, I’ll be presenting updates on X project, since I’ve been managing that to date’ (cheerful tone and smile!) and ‘Thank you for the introduction Jane. The team and I have done X, Y etc’ .

      You do have to practice this kind of presentation, and owning the work. Be sincerely cheerful, appreciate Jane for what she does do, but demonstrate what you have done, both in writing and verbally.

    8. Super Dee Duper Anon*

      Oh – I totally feel you. I’ve never been in this exact situation, but when I started working I was a bit naive and just very straightforward – assuming everyone else is as well. Had to learn the hard way that I needed to look out for and protect myself first and no matter what.

      I would do whatever you can to keep Jane out of the loop on the stuff you are working on. I’m sure that’s not completely possible, but if there’s anything you can do – speak more quietly on the phone or try to speak to people in person or by email (so Jane doesn’t overhear), make sure paperwork is covered up on your desk if you step away, make sure your computer is locked when you step away. From there, be prepared (and start practicing) speaking up in person. Just friendly, matter of fact “oh, actually I’m handling that”. This might feel uncomfortable at first, but you’ll get used to it.

      Another thing you can try – though this would depend Jane’s personality and your relationship – is trying to speak to her directly. I’ve had success being very matter of fact and saying something like “Hey Jane – I already started working on X”. With someone particularly prickly I’d add on some flattery – “Oh Jane, I already started X. I know you’ve got a lot on your plate currently, so I’ve got X”. Another route I’ve gone is to plead potential confusion or inconvenience, like “Hey Jane, I’m working on X. I don’t want to there to be any external confusion, so please send people to me about X” or “Hey Jane, I since I’m already working on X please send anybody with questions about it to me. I wouldn’t want you to be inconvenienced over projects I’m working on”. You could even try addressing the overall pattern with Jane if you see an opportunity to do so like “Hey Jane, you’ve started working on tasks that I had already started working on a couple of times now. Can we come up with a better way to divide up the work so that we don’t duplicate efforts?”.

      People are going to Jane because she’s making it very easy for them to do so (or she’s actively funneling them to herself), so start doing the same by being very vocal about what you’re working on. I definitely don’t think this means you’re not cut out for management, but I would take this as an opportunity to work on your assertiveness skills. If you are going to manage you’re going to need to be to advocate for your direct reports as well as deal directly with problem reports.

    9. NW Mossy*

      I can see absolutely why Jane didn’t get the job – she’s not ready. Someone who’s ready to be a manager openly acknowledges the contributions of others and recognizes that companies exist and thrive through the collective effort of many people, rather than the dominating effort of one. But enough about Jane – let’s talk about you, and how you can support yourself in getting into a management role in the future.

      One potential path is to hijack a bit of Jane’s game, because she has figured out one key point – relationships matter, especially at the managerial level. Her spotlight-stealing approach to doing it generally wouldn’t be a good fit for someone like you who leans toward letting your work speak, but there are other options! One counter-intuitive approach is to ask for small favors of colleagues and be appreciative for the help you receive. People love to feel needed and respected for their professional expertise, so it’s a good way to open the door to building a good working relationship. Once they’ve done a favor for you, they’ll think of you as someone to call on for help in return. Over time, this starts to get you on people’s mental list of good employees, rather than a good employee that gets forgotten about.

      Another approach is to consciously redirect your focus away from Jane (who is not a good role model for management) and onto leaders you like and respect. Watch how they work and behave, and look for ways you can integrate similar tactics into your day-to-day. It might mean how they treat people, how they deal with crisis, ask questions, or any number of things, but it gives you something concrete to build on to prepare yourself to make the leap.

      Also, remember that you’re getting a new boss soon. Invest in your relationship with this person. Show them what you bring to the table, and look for ways to help them further their priorities. Tell them about your aspirations and ask for their help in developing you towards them. They’re potentially a good ally for you, so cultivate that!

    11. CM*

      Ugh. It sucks because the temporary nature of the assignment means Jane currently has little incentive to cooperate with you. She doesn’t have to build something that lasts — just something that makes her look good right now.

      The fact that Jane’s a shitty work partner SHOULD have bearing on her ability to get promoted, so my advice would be to draw as much attention as possible to the fact that you are trying to create a harmonious relationship with her and she’s salting it. So, have joint project meetings where you explicitly call out the roles and who’s responsible for what in front of witnesses. If she tries to take over the meeting, call that out, too. “Jane, I feel like you’re trying to chair the meeting right now. I’m happy for you to chair meetings you call, but in a meeting I call, I expect to be the chair.” Again, in front of other people.

      If she realizes people can see her selfishness and starts cooperating, great. If not, then everybody is constantly witnessing that she’s incapable of team work.

  11. an anonymoose today*

    I work in marketing for one of the larger, more well-known agencies. They have a lot of global clients. The nature of the work means I get shifted from one client to another once the project ends.

    I really, really like my job. The money is great, the flexibility is amazing, I work with ambitious people who challenge me, the office culture is so inclusive (it’s the only company I’ve ever felt safe being queer in).

    The issue I have is that some clients I have no problem with but others I have moral or ethical issues with. Think clients on Wall Street or Big Oil. I feel so guilty working for clients who I think are horrible or who have done things that have negatively impacted the world. It really does weigh on my soul, and I feel like I’ll look difficult if I ask to switch to a different client for an ethical or political reason like disagreeing with Wall Street or Big Oil practices.

    I feel like I’m selling out by enjoying my job and working for clients who are pretty terrible, and I’ve had some of my activist friends accuse me of such. I think maybe I’ve ingested too much of the social media furor of “don’t support bad companies or you’re a bad person!” and that’s weighing me down, but I also genuinely don’t like the business practices of these companies.

    What do I do?

    1. Sloan Kittering*

      I mean, this is real. Everyone has to grapple with this. In my nonprofit career I had to decide how to deal with our corporate partners who were doing harm and also wanting us to help them whitewash it. Don’t dismiss the moral implications of your work, but I don’t think that means you have to quit a job you enjoy and that pays well. You could morally decide that through your work you’re going to help the companies do better, or that you will use the money you’re earning on the job to support the causes you believe in.

      1. lindsay*

        I work for a nonprofit too and we have had discussions about “do we take this person’s money.” I think there are often gray areas, but if you find that you are often taking money from companies that are the antithesis of your mission you need to reevaluate if your nonprofit is living the mission or not. I’d ask, if our clients found out we took this money how would they feel?

        1. Sloan Kittering*

          For us, it came down to – if we don’t take this money and use it for good, while acknowledging the issues with its source, what would that money be used for? Would the planet benefit from the way we plan to use this money (yes!). Where I draw the line is about how much attribution / fawning we might do over the donor. I will use dirty money for good things and sleep like a baby, but I won’t throw an awards banquet and celebrate how incredibly awesome a company is that gives .000000000000001% of their profits to something they hope will raise their profile with consumers.

    2. 1234*

      Think about it this way, are the specific people you work with on Wall St or Big Oil the ones personally contributing to harm/being unethical? They’re making a living the same way you are making a living. Don’t lump the clients with their company’s poor choices.

      1. Grace*

        This. So much this.

        My father works at an oil refinery as an analytical chemist and is pretty in-demand when it comes to conferences in his particular area. (Let’s just say that he’s planning to go into consulting some time in the next few years, and probably won’t be short on clients.) And yes, his company have got themselves into some shit over the years. Does that make him part of Big Oil? I mean, sure, probably, according to some people, including the people who accused me a few years ago of profiting from the destruction of our planet because the main wage-earner in our household was my father.

        But his main focus is reducing pollutants in fuel, particularly jet fuel, and keeping levels of pollutants and toxins below harmful levels, and working to detect even the minutest amounts and find ways to filter them out. He’s 100% behind the electric car movement, but also fully acknowledges that fuel is going to be around for a long time yet, particularly in planes, so we might as well do our best to make it as least-bad as possible. I strongly suspect that he and his lab and the conferences he attends have done more for the environment than the random slacktivist who decided to troll a teenage girl about her parents’ careers.

    3. lindsay*

      Sorry but I agree with your friends. I’m in marketing/PR for a nonprofit, and there’s a reason I don’t work for a bank or a hedge fund- I wouldn’t feel good about it. I think if you are making a living off the money of bad people, well, you’re not so great yourself. I think you should look for a job with a company that better aligns with your morals.

      1. Sloan Kittering*

        I don’t think someone’s a bad person, but I do think … I mean, your work is the greatest investment of your waking life, in terms of sheer volume at least. It is literally your legacy. You probably spend more waking hours on your career than you do with your spouse or kids, if you work full time. So it is important to me that that effort be for something that is not actively harming others / the planet. However, everybody has their own way to living in the world and I can respect that.

      3. an anonymoose today*

        I don’t think a comment has ever made me sob so much.

        I guess thanks for the reply, but I’m having some unhealthy thoughts right now and I think that’s enough for this thread. I regret asking this question.

        1. SR*

          Hi, I’ve never actually commented before, since lurking is my jam, but I wanted to reply. I hope you are feeling ebtter. Be kind to yourself, and understand that not everyone can be in a job that feels 100% aligned with your personal ethics. It’s a bit of a different scenario, but in my career as a lawyer I have defended people and companies who have acted in ways I personally found abhorrent, even with the enjoyment I do find in the work (arguing in court, etc.). But there was room, in these ever-grey scenarios, to conduct myself with integrity, to do the right thing, and to bring things to a fair resolution. It may be a surprise to those determined to place things in “good” and “bad” categories, but Wall Street and Big Oil companies (most, in my experience, anyway) are still interested in doing beneficial things. Most big banks, for example, want to be more green, to promote and encourage diversity, etc. Perhaps you could learn about this side of your clients, and perhaps there’s room to build on these things in your role. Living in a headspace where you say, “Oh, that’s an evil client that can only do evil things, nothing I could do for them could possibly be good” will, in my view, leave you in a bad place. Be well.

          1. Anon for This*

            I definitely agree with this. While there are people who just don’t care, a lot of times there are multiple, complex forces at work. For instance, in my experience, landlords aren’t sitting there cackling as they swim in money while they evict people. They’ve come to a point where they’ve tried to work with people, often over multiple months are simply at a point where they can’t afford to continue on with a particular tenant.

            That doesn’t mean you should be blind to the impact of the companies you support–but seeing everything as black and white isn’t always accurate either.

          2. Natalie*

            Be kind to yourself, and understand that not everyone can be in a job that feels 100% aligned with your personal ethics.

            I’d stretch this out even more and say virtually no one has a job that’s 100% aligned with their personal ethics. Can you imagine the odds of that? I don’t think it’s really achievable unless your personal ethics are basically nonexistent.

            We all have personal lines, and the rest of it you kind of have to take on a case by case basis. I wish there was an easier answer but I really don’t think there is.

          4. Not One of the Bronte Sisters*

            I am a lawyer too and I was going to say that very few things are as black and white as some of the commenters are implying. Are these clients doing some things that you find admirable? Or are there some people who work at some of those places who you find interesting or admirable? Maybe in looking for and stressing those aspects of their workplaces you can even help them to do better. And, honestly, in nonprofit organizations who have the most admirable missions in the world one can find thieves, embezzlers and just plain assholes. Nothing is black and white. Take care of yourself.

          5. Clisby*

            Maybe I’m way off base, but to me, the job of a lawyer is to represent a client, to make sure the client is treated fairly under the law. The client can be the worst piece of shit on the planet, and he/she/company still should have decent legal representation.

            I live in Charleston, SC, where Dylann Roof slaughtered 9 people in a church. He was still entitled to (and got) good lawyers.

            His lawyers weren’t endorsing him or his behavior. They were standing up for the rule of law. Everybody, no matter how despicable, gets a fair trial.

          6. Pommette!*

            I’ll premise this with a caveat: I really think that many corporate social responsibility efforts put forth by banks and resource extraction companies are genuinely superficial fig leaves that only detract from the fact that at their core, those companies do harmful work. It’s possible (probable?) that this will be the case for many of the organisations that the OP works for. It’s not inappropriate to be intellectually honest about the overall effect of the companies you work with on the world.

            That said, I 100% agree with the core argument of your post (“be kind to yourself”). We live in a pretty messed up world, and there is no way to act in consistently virtuous ways. No matter where we work, in the end it is not possible to live, and eat, and house ourselves, without becoming implicated in/bolstering economic and political systems that harm people and the planet. The best we can do is try to act as well as we can as we navigate complicated and compromising situations.

            Anonymoose: I’m in a situation that is pretty much the opposite from the one you describe. I took an “ethical” job (non-profit/academic sector, dealing with a social justice cause that I care passionately about). The fact is that it’s exhausting work that eats up all of my free time, and that it is generally not fun work. The constant exhaustion and the nature of the work grind me down, and make it harder for me to be a good person. I neglect the people I love and often can’t be present when they need me. I have failed friends and relatives in ways that I can never make up for. I don’t volunteer anymore. I don’t engage in advocacy outside of my work. I get paid with money that has been donated to help people who are deeply disadvantaged, and I often feel guilty about that. Because my field is precarious, I’m also not generous with my money. I don’t donate a big percentage of my income; instead I hoard what I can because to cushion the inevitable lean times. The precarity has warped me in other ways, too: I now sometimes look at what I used to see as work that mattered, as just “income”. I feel like a sellout, and like a bad person, most of the time.

            I took my job because I cared about the mission, but also because I did not want to feel the way that Anonymoose describes feeling; I did not want to receive “dirty” money. Years later I now understand that there is no such thing as clean money in our economic system. I get paid with money that ultimately comes from donations from people working for oil and other companies, or even from genuinely bad companies trying to whitewash themselves. I spend money on lots of things that were produced unethically, or on things that are inherently harmful. Since we are on that topic: I buy gas from petroleum companies.

            I think that there is no “good” path in this world, just more or less bad ones. They all involve tradeoffs. In the end, we all have to figure out what the best way is for each of us (as idiosyncratic people with our own specific personalities, skills, social situations, needs, and weaknesses) to be as good as we can in the world as actually it is. That means being honest about the bad. But in the end it really may be that for you, Anonymoose, the better way to be a good person is to work with bad companies, in ways that make you feel invigorated, and to use your energy and money in ways you think are ethical.

        2. SR*

          I would also add that if you struggle with feeling like you are not doing enough “good” — I certainly do sometimes — you can use your professional skills outside of work. I sit on a charitable board for a community organization, and otherwise do volunteer and advocacy work. You might consider this.

        3. Orphan Brown*

          I’m so sorry you’re going through this and I realize that comment was harsh. I speak from personal experience when I say that in the end you have to do what you can stomach. How can you look at yourself in the mirror and be proud?

          I left a job in marketing after I worked on a project helping internal employees to feel better about their work because their product was shown to be killing people and they were feeling demoralized. I then met someone whose family member had been killed by said product. I quit soon after and am now in a “social good” field using my relevant skills. I am not making as much money.

          It’s a tough decision and I think about going back to my old field, but I would 100% vet their client list and then ask them if they have any guiding principles for how they take on new clients.

          Good luck with it all and I hope you can find some mental peace with it, whatever you decide.

        4. Meh*

          Ignore the “moral paragons.” Look, chances are you’re going to have to associate with people who are less than savory (intentionally or not) no matter what. If you’re doing a good job, people from all walks of life (including unsavory ones) will want to work with you. Don’t hold yourself responsible for what other people do. Should a toilet paper company be ashamed that they sell toilet paper to prisons for murderers and rapists to use?
          Granted, if you decide that you want to work somewhere else because you personally don’t like the clients/work/whatever, that’s your choice. But don’t do it out of guilt from your activist friends because matter how “pure” you try to be, it’ll never be enough. If your friends are giving you crap for having a good job that you enjoy because they don’t like who you work with, that’s their problem, not yours.
          Long story short, make a choice, but make it YOUR choice, based on what makes YOU happy, not what makes your activist friends happy. Take care of yourself.

        5. lindsay*

          I’m sorry my comment hurt you – I think you’re actually doing the absolute right thing by even thinking about this and asking the question shows that you ARE a good person, and I should have highlighted that in my original comment. I do think that we have to make choices in life, and if you’re able to work your way towards aligning your career with your personal morals you should do that. Certainly you need to make a living and keep a roof over your head! There are also other ways people find to do things that make them feel good even if their jobs don’t. Maybe you can spend time volunteering with an organization that helps with eviction prevention to balance out a little bit of the big banks, or with an environmental group to help balance out big oil. It’s certainly not your job to fix all they do wrong, but it might help you feel better! Again, I’m sorry for making you feel so bad about yourself- it wasn’t my intention.

        6. PegLeg*

          I work at a company that most socially conscious people would think is doing great work, but at the end of the day, it is still a business and revenue still drives every decision. There have been many articles recently about Planned Parenthood providing lousy maternity and health benefits for their employees. I guess the point I’m trying to make is that we are all just trying to make a living, and there is no perfect company. If you are enjoying your work and work environment, that is worth a lot. Having a socially conscious mindset does not have to be a vow of poverty, and doesn’t mean you have to jump ship every time your workplace does something you disagree with. You can offset the “bad” by donations, volunteering, bringing awareness to causes you care about, but you also can earn a living. NONE OF THAT MAKES YOU A BAD PERSON! The fact that you are even engaging this line of thinking proves otherwise! :)

        7. Kat in VA*

          Ah jeez. My parent company makes missiles, rockets, and bombs. That doesn’t make me a bad person. It makes me a person whose salary is dependent upon a parent company that makes missiles, rockets, and bombs.

          Lindsay’s comment was harsh and shitty – and undeserved.

        8. ten-four*

          Well hold on – your company has lots of clients and there’s a small subset you do not want to work on for ethical reasons, yes? Many people in this situation ask that they not be assigned to individual clients, and depending on your status in the company you can make that anywhere on the scale from “I’d prefer not to but I will if there are no other options” to “absolutely not; I refuse.”

          Some anecdata on this:
          – My husband is currently at a consultancy and refuses to work with 2 companies that are big clients of theirs. He’s in a class of seniority that the company is working hard to keep (people at his level keep quitting) so he doesn’t have to work on those clients.
          – In my very first job out of college I worked on a lot of accounts, and I noted that I’d really prefer to be on X rather than Y. I didn’t refuse X, but I was put on Y and not on X.

          And for what it’s worth, later on at a consultancy I worked for a Deeply Hated retailer on a branch of work that was in itself Very Good. A lot of folks in my circle profoundly disagreed with my choice to do that work, but I still believe it was the right thing to do.

          I agree with folks that there are plenty of shades of gray in work, but I think you can square the circle at your current job rather than quitting and going on a Quest for a Morally Pure Company.

      4. Anon today and tomorrow*

        I think you’re being unnecessarily cruel by calling OP a bad person for taking a job. They’re not the ones making decisions at a hedge fund. I think anyone already worried about the moral implications shows they’re not a bad person.

        I think there’s this sense in non-profit work that they’re morally better than corporations, but there’s some bad people in nonprofits.

        Plus, it’s a big privilege to be able to choose to work for a company that aligns with your morals. By your comment, do you think everyone trying to survive on paychecks working at Chick-fil-a are bad people because it’s a homophobic company? When they just need a job to keep the lights on or put food on the table?

        It’s not a black and white issue and this work somewhere that aligns with your morals mentality is harmful to so many people. Most people don’t have that choice.

        1. lindsay*

          I agree that asking that question shows they aren’t a bad person. I should’ve couched my earlier response better. Of course we all have to work and make a living, but by asking the question OP is saying they do have some control over where they work. I’d work at Chick-fil-A if I had literally no other choice, but as a person with a lot of fast food eating options I’ve never been to a Chick-fil-A because I don’t agree with their homophobia. That said, we all pick and choose. I know Amazon isn’t the greatest at taking care of their customers and I still shop there. We all have to decide where we draw our lines. For me, my job, where I spend so much time and energy is a place I would do that.

        2. Pommette!*

          That’s a misleading comparison. Doing line or cashier work at Chick-fil-a isn’t the same thing as designing ad campaigns for the same company. The people doing the former have fewer and worse options, and the impact that their work has on the company’s profitability is much, much less direct and much, much less important.

          I agree that it’s not a black and white issue, and that it’s not one that we can all navigate with the same (or sometimes any) freedom. Lots of good people work for bad companies. But yeah, the impact and implications of our work matter, and are things that everyone should think about seriously! The questions that Anonymoose is asking herself are important and worth considering.

      5. asher*

        This is harsh, but you’re not wrong. I don’t think I could do work I didn’t feel matched my ethics. Seems like dirty money to me.

      6. Susie Q*

        I also enjoy a bit of moral grandstanding.

        Not everyone has the option or ability to work for an organization that highly aligns with personal morals. The vast majority of people just need a job with decent benefits and pay. It’s great that you’ve been able to find a job that aligns with your morals but it’s not easy for everyone. So maybe get off your high horse and show some empathy to people just trying to survive.

    4. Glomarization, Esq.*

      Options include:

      – Quit.
      – Tithe to charities that you feel would offset your participation in Wall Street and Big Oil.
      – Live frugally while maxxing out your bonus/overtime income so that you can quit and/or tithe more.
      – Engage in some kind of low-key but effective sabotage on the Wall Street and Big Oil accounts.
      – Network like a demon and look for a job where you won’t be working for those types of clients.
      – Generate your own book of business and start your own agency.

      Some of these are not mutually exclusive.

      1. Sloan Kittering*

        – use what you’ve learned working on these high profile accounts to turn around and boost accounts that need your expertise (like nonprofits) – the pro bono model of corporate lawyers.

        1. Glomarization, Esq.*

          Speaking of corporate lawyers, it can also be a good idea to avoid lifestyle creep: getting used to the kind of income that comes with doing work for Wall Street and Big Oil, and then donning one’s own “golden handcuffs” by increasing one’s lifestyle expenses to match. It’s a tale as old as time that young people enter law school wanting to save the earth and the orphans and subvert the dominant paradigm, but their Biglaw salaries tempt them to buy upscale houses and cars and club memberships that don’t allow them to devote time, money, or expertise to the causes they believe in.

      2. mobuy*

        “– Engage in some kind of low-key but effective sabotage on the Wall Street and Big Oil accounts.”

        Yeah, because that wouldn’t make you a bad, unethical person at all. Hypocrite.

        1. Glomarization, Esq.*

          The world is screaming toward climate apocalypse due to the actions of Wall Street and Big Oil and the government status quo that supports them, but, no, direct action promoting human rights over property interests isn’t for everybody. To each their own.

          1. mobuy*

            an anonymoose wrote in trying to feel better and more ethical. You suggest she sabotages companies. I don’t think criminal and unethical actions are the right way to feel more ethical. If you do, well, I guess we can agree to disagree.

      3. mechabear*

        Legitimate question, what would ” low-key but effective sabotage on the Wall Street and Big Oil accounts” even look like?

        1. Glomarization, Esq.*

          I’m not in advertising, but things that come to my mind are:

          – Add delays and expense to the projects: work slowly, “require” extensions of time, even blow a deadline here and there, if it will adversely affect the client’s schedule and can be done without hurting one’s own reputation or pay.
          – Submit less than top-notch work, work that fails to meet the specs exactly so it needs to be modified, work that legal will take extra time to approve (say, due to intellectual property issues), or work that can “inadvertently” deliver a secondary message, again with the same caveat about reputation/pay.
          – Overbill (by padding your hours, overcharging for materials and travel, etc.).
          – Cause or allow to happen an “accidental” catastrophic loss of materials or data that hasn’t been backed up.
          – Leak documents to competition, media, etc.
          – Whistleblow to EPA, SEC, DoJ, etc.

          Direct action is risky. Obviously, you can get disciplined, fired, sued, or charged, and maybe you’ll never be able to work in that industry again. Following this comment with a link to the CIA’s (formerly OSS) manual for sabotage during the Second World War.

    5. Iris Eyes*

      With corporations morality most often comes in shades of gray.

      If you don’t have any option but to do what you are assigned then maybe see if there is a silver lining to the company. Think about what the entire world would be without them. Yes there are lots of problems with Big Oil but would we be where we are now without them? In a nation where rural areas are dying oil and gas jobs and royalties often provide the best income opportunities. What have their dirty oil profits enabled them to do in the R&D departments, how has that benefited you?

      Wall Street has some absolutely terrible practices BUT the stock market is one of the primary ways for individuals have to change their economic situation. Because of the infrastructure that Wall Street provides people can buy themselves an income that has nothing to do with their employers enabling them to take control of their lives in important ways. The debt that Wall Street facilitates has been leveraged for lots of good for companies you do believe in.

      Just like humans, maybe we shouldn’t judge them entirely by the worst they do, but see the good they are capable of and push them toward that.

    6. anon for this*

      [Going anon because I think someone could link my real identity to my usual handle and I don’t want my company linked to it.]

      This is something I have some mixed feelings about in regards to my own work. I’m a property manager (not the hellmouth person, FWIW). That means that sometimes, I do evictions, have to tell people that we’re not renewing their lease, etc.

      The reality is that a lot of that is systematic—a person legitimately can’t afford their rent, even at the cheaper complexes that we manage. There are also bigger questions in play. It makes sense that landlords will be leery about renting to people who have committed serious crimes, because they want their property to be safe for all occupants. But on a social level, that means that anyone with a felony tends to only be able to rent from a few really rough properties, with other people who have similar records. And that isn’t likely to be all that conducive to helping people make different decisions in the future.

      On the flip side, the problem is that (especially in the more affordable range), there isn’t actually a huge profit margin, and 1-2 units that aren’t able to pay rent can mean the property is going to have trouble paying their bills. And other tenants should have a place that’s quiet, safe, and comfortable. So, it’s kind of hard to see any other way to run an apartment complex.

      For me, where I’m at is considering a few things:

      1. What are my ‘hard lines’? For me, I won’t work for any customer who wants to do things illegally. (There are a lot of illegal things that happen all the time in property management and that are pretty common and accepted.) We do our best to do everything by the book.

      2. Given that this job WILL be done by someone, is it better for me to do it than for someone else to do it? For me, this is a big one. I’m incredibly imperfect, but I at least believe that things like unconscious bias exist and can *try* to reduce the effect, as well as encouraging our landlords to accept aid vouchers (e.g. Section 8).

      3. What can I do to make the world better? For me, that means that since taking this job, I try to support housing support organizations in my community. I also think that sometimes, we can get too focused on the big picture and not enough on small things, like trying to be patient and courteous to others.

      In your own example, I can’t solve it for you, but it might help you to think through similar things. For instance, are there some customers you’re just not willing to work for (e.g. cigarette companies), but others that are more borderline that you would be willing to do work for? Are there opportunities in working for these clients to do some actual good? Are there ways that you can try and make the world a better place?

      1. Sloan Kittering*

        “is it better for me to do it than for someone else to do it?” – this is real. I have friends who started in the enviro field and ended up working for big corporations helping them skirt regulations or stay JUST on the legal side. But they feel that if they left, they would be replaced by someone who would do worse, and they’d rather try to be a moral voice. There are many different ways to make peace with your work, but you still have to earnestly put in mental time to figure out your boundaries and make that peace. You can’t skip it.

        1. Anon for This*

          I also personally believe that if there’s a time when I find it doesn’t bother me any more, that’s my sign to get out. You have to find some balance between silencing your morality and letting it eat you alive, and that’s not always an easy balancing act.

      2. Anonforthis*

        I hear you. I work in HR, which means that sometimes I have to do things that suck, like firing people. I’m very fortunate that I now work for a company that is very ethical and involved in an industry I morally support (biotech/medical). I have worked in other places where I’ve been asked to do things that I didn’t agree with and thought were wrong (for example, firing a pregnant employee on a pretext because the company didn’t want to pay for her leave). In those cases, I would explain to my manager why I didn’t agree with the course of action being proposed, and ask if there was some kind of alternative. If there wasn’t, I’d ask to be recused from that particular action. It was only ever a problem once, and I left that company shortly afterwards.

    7. Plain Jane*

      I know the bell has been rung, but if your activist friends know about your clients because you told them, realize you don’t have to share that with them going forward.

    8. Public Defender*

      I changed the name to better explain where I am coming from.

      Yes, I am a Public Defender. When I went to law school, that was the one job I thought I could never do “because you get these horrible clients and you can’t turn them away.” After interning for 3 semesters with a prosecutor’s office, I got a better perception of defendants. Yes, some of them do really horrible things; most do not.

      After I passed the bar, I got a fellowship with a Public Defender’s Office. I figured I would use that short-term job to see if I could really do the job. About a week after I started, I talked to a friend of mine’s mother, who is a paralegal for a firm that does insurance defense. She said “I suspect your clients and mine are like this.” (crossing her fingers). I chuckled and said “they may be slimeballs. But they are my slimeballs, and they are still human beings, and they still have rights.”

      That is the mindset I carry into my work. Yes, my clients (like yours) have done some really bad things. But that isn’t the end-all, be-all. Wall Street/Big Oil are not a faceless, amorphous “they.” There are people there, who are trying to do what they can.

      I don’t get to pick my clients; you don’t get to pick yours. But what both of us can do is stand up and do the best job we can – even for people/entities we don’t personally like. Take it as a point of pride that you can still be professional, regardless of the circumstance.

    9. Gloucesterina*

      I think you need a network of mentors (or mentors + therapist), if you don’t already have one, to support you in thinking through these questions. I don’t think an internet forum can do the necessary intellectual and/or therapeutic work involved.

    10. Natalie*

      I don’t think there’s one right answer to this question. It’s something people continually grapple with throughout their careers. What I can promise you is that there’s no purely perfect option for you out there – even the seemingly safe nonprofit world comes with compromises. I work for a reproductive health org that has a lot of leftist cred, but we still have to do things that don’t match up with radical principles because we exist in society as it currently is.

      If you decide these particular companies are your lines in the sand, that’s okay. You may end up making some sacrifices to live that principle, and that’s to be expected. But it’s also okay if you decide these particular clients are not your hill to die on. Everyone, including your activist friends and Loud People on Twitter, routinely makes choices like this. (As though the giant social media companies where most of this slactivism happens are paragons of virtue. Pfft.)

      And if your friends can’t have a conversation with you, even a difficult one, without being mean, maybe they are crappy friends?

    11. drogon's kitchen table*

      I totally get this. I’m an information professional and I used to work in the pharma. After years, I started feeling sick over it so I left…for a job in advertising (ha!) Sometimes I end up doing research for a client/prospect that feels icky. I guess it’s different for me because I cover all clients and new business pitches so I get to move on to something more pleasant quickly, rather than being stuck on an account long term.

      Anyway, as for the friends, I think it’s fair to thank them for their input and say that you’re not interested in discussing it further. It’s unreasonable for friends to treat you that way. As for your personal feelings, perhaps you could look at volunteering to help people impacted by the practices of the offending companies. It might look bad to go the actual activist route, but if you’re working with a big oil client, volunteer with an environmental group, etc.

    12. Not So NewReader*

      It’s interesting to look at socially responsible investing. If you read enough, you start realizing that it’s impossible to find a company that behaves in a totally socially responsible manner.
      Investors are advised to pick the actions/causes that they support the most and invest their dollars in companies who are aligned with the investor’s own values.

      For the moment, stay off the social media that is lecturing people on how bad they are. This is not helping you and you need space in your brain to sort your own thoughts on things. But then actually do that, actually sort out your thoughts. What does social responsibility look like to you? Is in environmental? Is it the human side? What do you place the highest value on?

      As far as your activist friends, why not ask them for suggestions of good employers? Throw the ball back at them. One thing about activism that I think that needs to change, is that it takes very little talent to say what is wrong. The real talent is in figuring out how to fix it. So ask your activist friends to make viable suggestions on what you should do. Tell them you will listen to well-thought out ideas on potential solutions to your quandary.

      Your friends will either start bringing you good suggestions OR they may stop trying to preach at you if they know you are going to expect them to DO something.

      I have had my own mini-version of where you are with your job. For me, it eventually worked into a bigger deal where I could not live with myself and I had to get out. For your own satisfaction, looking around for what you might do next could be wise, in anticipation that one day you might say, “ENOUGH! Done here!”

    13. Yoda*

      OP, Get rid of those friends or stop discussing work with them! If you enjoy the work, continue doing it with enjoyment! Analyze what’s good about your work and what’s bad! If you enjoy the kind of work you are doing, no point in feeling bad that you have to work with some clients whose politics or ethics you don’t agree with. Just because you work with them, doesn’t mean your politics or ethics are bad. Maybe when you are in a position to choose your own clients, then choose who fits within your ethics.

      And please stop caring about the opinions of others, who moral-policed you. If they see which companies make products they eat, clothes they wear and products they use… they’ll find most of these corporate companies whose products we consume everyday needs are all violating some basic human right or other.

    14. NoOneInvitesTheSafetyOfficerToParties*

      I work with a lot of clients with mental illness. Many of my clients also have substance abuse disorders, and addiction can turn the kindest, sweetest, most generous people into selfish human beings desperate for their next fix at no matter the cost to relationships, society, or even innocent lives.

      But clients should not be defined just by their problems, or the damage they may be creating. People are influenced by many interpersonal relationships, and sometimes, just being a stone in the pond – that little ripple – is enough to foster positive change. If someone like you, who cares, never make any contact with the people in these companies and avoided them to keep your morals utterly pure, how can anyone expect the people at these companies to change themselves, and then change company policies?

      1. Pommette!*

        Anonymoose’s dilemma might differ from yours, though, in two small but important ways:

        1-Her clients are corporations, not people. Lots of genuinely harmful corporations employ kind, thoughtful, well-meaning employees. By law, pubic corporations’ decision-making is ultimately driven by the duty to make as much money as possible for investors. That’s it, and if often means acting in ways that harm people or the environment. Employees don’t have the power to change that, no matter how good or well-intentioned they are.

        2- It’s not about working with clients who she feels are “bad” or with clients she knows to have acted in ways that have caused harm to others. It’s about whether or not her work will enable those clients to act in harmful ways – ie about whether or not her work will itself cause harm.

        In either case, like you, I have a lot of sympathy for the OP. She is dealing with a complicated dilemma for which will not be a single obvious “good” solution.

    15. Lynn Whitehat*

      I get it. My day job is in security software. Everyone wants secure systems, even the bad guys. I’m also active enough in local politics to be called “an activist” in the local newspaper, so I guess I am one. There are few bright lines, few obvious “good guys” and “bad guys”.

      1) I would never tell someone they need to quit their job. We all have to make our own choices between what we know how to do, what pays the bills, and what we can live with.

      2) There are few absolutes. Almost everything is owned by terrible people! Yet we all have to eat, and mostly that means we have to work.

      3) I have found peace by deciding that I am making the world better by making it more secure. Some of our customers are just THE WORST, but on the whole I think I am doing more good by keeping everyone safe(r) than harm because the “bad guys” are secure too. Is marketing like that for you?

      4) A lot of people who want to do good are hamstrung by lack of $$$. As long as I have this remunerative job, I have money to contribute to good causes. I find peace in that.

      Good luck.

    16. quirkypants*

      I haven’t read the rest of that thread but I ended up leaving agency life because I couldn’t with good conscious talk about working for a client I thought was doing shitty things in the world.

      I didn’t concern myself with what my friends thought, I concerned myself with my own opinions and what I was comfortable with. Only you can make that call. The fact that you’re asking this question tells me something isn’t sitting right. Is it your friends or your career? Or something else?

      You gotta dig deep either way, once you decide you don’t need to quit or ditch your friends asap but something is going to have to give. Take your time as you decide what that is.

      Good luck

    17. PetticoatsandPincushions*

      I have a relative who is a huge environmentalist, and recently took a job working with an oil company. People are so confused! But his position is essentially harm reduction- making sure what does get done is done in the safest way and with the smallest possible environmental footprint. So yes, the company itself may not align with his moral values, but his job is really to keep in check what is, at least for the forseeable future, something that’s not going away any time soon. Can you find that moral value for yourself in your work by figuring out a way to support the things you value in a company or reduce the harm caused by what you don’t?

    18. BelleMorte*

      I hope you are feeling better today. People all work in companies that have grey areas, nothing is completely innocent or immune to negative areas. I work in government, and while I feel good about contributing to civil service, people have commented when I work for a party in power that they don’t like and feel I should quit rather than support their administration. Obviously this doesn’t make sense, and someone needs to do these jobs!

      Then people who complain about wall street, banks, big oil, big pharma.. are they immune to the damages as consumers? Do they drive internal combustion vehicles, do they use technological devices, or live in homes that have been created as a result of resource extraction? Do they eat only locally/self grown food? All of this supports big oil, big pharma, wall streets, banks, as much as we don’t like it, the reality is people depend on those companies. Could they be run a bit more ethically, sure, but it doesn’t stop people from purchasing their services while complaining about the people that work there.

      No one is morally immune to the negative side of consumerism. While you may feel bad about it, it’s not something that is limited to you. Like others have said, try to limit your interactions, look at other potential jobs or fields if that appeals to you, but every job has a negative side that contributes to the world we live in.

  12. Leah*

    So I made a small but major mistake, and now I don’t know what to do.

    I applied to an internal job opportunity in my company yesterday, but when I got home to read my cover letter to my mom I noticed I submitted it with the title of the job slightly incorrect. The job is called “IT Specialist” and I wrote down, both in the title of the file and twice in my cover letter, “IT Support”. I spent three days writing this cover letter… I have no idea how I let this detail pass through the cracks and now I’m mortified. I blame my ADHD, especially because I was anxious about writing a darn good cover letter for this really amazing job, which I think I achieved, but now I’m worried that no matter how good the cover letter is it’ll be overlooked because of this mistake. It’s a small one, granted – the job is basically that of a specialized IT support, which is why I made this mistake and I know it – but I’m worried what the hiring manager will interpret when, of all the things I got wrong, I went and missed the JOB TITLE. I’m mad at myself for screwing up something so simple. I tried going to the portal to try and replace the cover letter file, but my only option is to review my application, not edit it in any way.

    Am I overthinking this or do you guys agree that this is this going to harm me in the hiring process? I have direct contact with the hiring manager via Skype for Business, and I even messaged him on monday just to let him know I was throwing my hat in the ring, and he seemed excited about my interested in the job and told me he looked forward to reviewing my application. Should I message him today to apologize for the mistake and send him the correct cover letter before he gets a chance to read the wrong one?

    1. Sloan Kittering*

      Ooh, tough call. If it were me I probably would send the corrected copy, apologizing ONCE without making a huge deal of it, because there’s a good chance this is an error they would actually notice (as opposed to one they might not, and you’d be calling more attention to the error by pointing it out).

    2. JokersandRogues*

      I think you’re overthinking a bit. It’s possible they’ll notice but I really doubt it weighs heavily at all . It’s possible they won’t even notice. I wouldn’t apologize and re-send; it just calls overt attention to something really minor.

      3. A Simple Narwhal*

        I agree, I don’t think it’s that big of a deal. Especially since it’s an internal application, you aren’t an unknown entity where something minor like that would make them throw your candidacy out. Plus it’s possible that if they even do notice the inconsistency, the two titles are close enough that they might think someone told you a different title or that different people are calling something else.

        When I applied for my current job, it was called the chocolate tea services manager – the recruiter called it that, my offer letter listed it as that, etc, and yet everyone at the company actually calls it a chocolate tea sets manager. It’s the same thing, just different people called it something different, it happens.

        I can totally understand your concerns, and you sound pretty early in your career (no judgement, I would totally have freaked out over something like this too), but you’ll learn that for the most part, job applications aren’t the SATs, where they tell you that if you fill out a bubble just a little bit wrong you’ll ruin everything. (Some places ARE like that, but they usually have bigger problems that go hand in hand with rigid applications.)

        1. curly sue*

          I did something very similar last year! I’m an adjunct and have to reapply for my own classes every year, with a CV and cover letter for each one. This past year we changed a pile of course numbers around and I ended up sending in cover letters for the right class names but the wrong course codes – not the old ones, not the new ones, but some unholy mish-mash of the two that I’d somehow managed to miss while proofreading.

          I did email the admin who was handling applications with a ‘mea culpa’ and she shrugged it off completely (I didn’t resubmit or correct anything, and yes, I got the courses). I think there’s a lot more leeway for internal candidates and known quantities than for someone new, and I wouldn’t go out of your way to do anything about it now.

        2. Leah*

          No judgement taken! I’m not super early in my career, per se – I’ve been working IT for almost seven years now – but I am relatively young (mid 20s) and I’ve trying almost desperately for the past two and a half years or so to relocate and/or to move up the ladder professionally. I posted in a Friday Open Thread a while ago about how my job is way below what I feel my current professional level is, and that to get to my office I have to power through several hours of commute every day. A relocation would not only mean a huge improvement in my life style but it would also mean a huge improvement in my parent’s, because I could send them enough money to pay their rent (our local currency is very devalued right now) and help them buy a car (my dad’s knees are Bad with a capital B and a car would help him and my mom SO MUCH). So for these reasons, plus several others, this is a huge opportunity for me, and I wanted it all to be perfect so I could have a good shot at it – I know I’m at a slight (big) disadvantage for not having some of the requirements they listed, and obviously because I live in a different continent.

          But I’m glad I posted here before I bit the bullet and message the manager; I’m gonna follow everyone’s advice and wait. I’m going to let my boss know that I applied as soon as he’s back from vacations next monday and see where it goes. And keep reading AAM to prepare for an eventual interview! Fingers crossed!

          Thank you all so much :)

          1. A Simple Narwhal*

            Good luck with everything! It’s easy to get panicky about small things when you see a potential job as the key to fixing everything in your life, and I’m pretty sure we’ve all been there, done that, felt silly in hindsight. Not to devalue what this job could mean, it certainly sounds like it would make a huge difference for you, but even the tiniest mistake feels massive if it means it could jeopardize YOUR ONE AND ONLY SHOT AT TRUE HAPPINESS. ;-)

            Good luck, I’m rooting for you!

      4. Jules the 3rd*

        I agree with JnR, you’re over thinking. Don’t re-send, ‘Specialist’ to ‘Support’ is pretty minor. Now, if you’d sent ‘Specieist’ or ‘Sapper’, then you’d want to correct / resend.

      5. Mellow*

        I understand your angst, but one solace here is that you made the same error consistently. If I were doing the hiring, and I even noticed it, I’d rather see a consistent error throughout the application than a correct job title alongside an incorrect title; too wonky. I might think “Wait – was it called that and it got changed somehow?” or something along those lines. It may even be called that colloquially within the department to which you’ve applied, and that colloquialism somehow got back to you – is another logic of forgiveness here.

        I’d say that if you don’t get interviewed, that it’s something else and not that. On that note, please update us if you do get the position. It’d be nice to hear of your victory!

        1. Leah*

          I will! I have a good feeling about this job, and I hope it’s not just wishful thinking :) I read my cover letter to two other people yesterday, and both said it’s pretty darn amazing, so I’m glad! Gonna look at some flats for rent around the UK throughout the week to keep the positive energy around the job flowing lol

    3. Lilysparrow*

      Leave it. There’s no upside.

      If they care, the damage is already done. The apology won’t help, it will just be awkward.

      If they didn’t notice, it would make them notice.

      If they don’t care, it just makes you look out of touch with their priorities because you are making a thing of it.

      Keep applying and put it out of your mind. If they call it can be a nice surprise.

      1. Lilysparrow*

        I’d think differently, by the way, if it were a substantial error like a typo that misrepresented your years of experience, something like that.

        1. Sloan Kittering*

          I defer to the majority! I just though the job title sounded significantly different – like the difference between “assistant” and “manager” – and that it would be noticeable to the hiring manager. Those in the field may know better esp if those titles are basically interchangeable.

          1. Leah*

            Usually an IT specialist is like a higher level of IT support. It kinda implies that you do support, but you also don’t do just that, and that you’re also at a higher level of support; it’s like the difference between a supervisor and a manager, I guess. In both cases you’re in charge of people, but the roles have different levels of responsibilities and weight to them.

    4. MissGirl*

      My vote is keep it quiet. If you mention it, you risk calling out attention to it and making it a bigger deal than it is. And it’s not a big deal. I sat on an interview with a candidate who walked in and immediately apologized for something he’d done wrong in his application materials. It shifted the tone of the interview, and he actually hadn’t done anything wrong.

      In my senior year of college while I was job hunting, I hastily added in a line to my resume before going to a networking event. At the event I noticed a glaring error in the first line of my resume (“a editor” versus “an editor”). I met someone who knew someone hiring an ASSISTANT EDITOR. She asked for my resume, which I handed over but I told her I’d send her an updated one that night without mentioning the error.

      She sent it off to her contact before I could send her a fixed one. I immediately wrote the job off, but they contacted me a few months later for an interview. When I sat across from then, I noticed the damning resume. I handed over a correct one and simply said, “Here’s an updated version.” I got the job!!

      *Final note. The woman I met at the event went on and on about typos in resumes, and how if she sees one she immediately discards it.

    5. PegLeg*

      I would leave it as is and not call attention to it. In the same way you overlooked it numerous times, I would bet they also read it as what they expect it to say instead of getting caught up in that tiny of a detail. The hiring manager was excited you are applying, that alone says to me you will probably be starting with a leg up. Also take this as a lesson in the future to send application materials to someone for proofreading before submitting! :)

      1. Leah*

        I actually did have people proofread it, I sent it to my sister and my best friend! But I’m pretty sure I didn’t go further than “I’m applying for a job that’s so-and-so”, so they wouldn’t catch the job title error either. My best friend, who’s from England (my first language isn’t English) said it was really good, and suggested a few minor grammatical changes, and my sister said she loved it and that she’d hire me lol. Fingers crossed the hiring manager at least interviews me!

  13. K8 M*

    I have a coworker who comes in every single morning and asks “Is it nap time yet?” It’s so irritating to me. I am senior to him by far, but I’m not his boss. I’ve tried not responding, and responding in a way that indicates I’m not interested- but he’s not taking hints. Is it OK to just tell him to stop? How?

    1. Sloan Kittering*

      “You know, you say that to me every day, I’m not sure how you think I’m going to respond differently. Can I ask you to stop?” But I’d probably just shrug it off if it were me TBH. This sounds like a super short interaction. “Haha I wish!” – go back to work.

      1. Joielle*

        Yeah, one of my coworkers ALWAYS on Thursday morning says “Happy Friday eve!” and on Friday morning “Happy Friday!” in this weird peppy voice and honestly I find it super irritating but she’s great otherwise so I just say “Haha yeah!” or whatever and then we move on. It’s not worth upsetting her over what is like a ten second interaction at most.

        1. Sloan Kittering*

          I mentally substitute these types of exchanges for “I acknowledge you, fellow human!”

        2. K8 M*

          It would be less irritating if it were a variation on a theme even. It’s the constant repetition that really grates my gears.

          1. Squeeble*

            Is he saying it to you directly, or is it more of a general statement to the room? Because especially if it’s the latter, I think you can just politely ignore it or pretend you didn’t hear it.

            I have a colleague who nearly always responds to “how are you?” with a weary “I’m here.” Sigh.

    2. Kasia*

      I have a coworker who, when asked “how are you?” responds with ” F and D! Fine and dandy!” Every.single.time. It drove me bonkers.

      The only thing that helped was leaving that office. You have my sympathies

    3. CupcakeCounter*

      I’m that coworker but I at least switch it up between “Is it nap time?” “Is it 5 o’clock?” “Is it Friday?” “I don’t wanna” “I need a nap” etc…

      1. Mellow*

        I can relate! I’m the “Sure is gonna be a hot/cold/windy/rainy one today!” coworker. Fair warning.

    5. Akcipitrokulo*

      It’s his version of “I acknowledge you, fellow human with whom I have a genial relationship” – so if there isn’t anything problematic I’d tend to see it in those terms and see it as a quirk… if it’s really too irritating, then you could ask nicely not to say it, but it does run the risk of alienating him.

      If relationship otherwise is good? I’d let it go.

    6. Aud*

      I have a coworker who asks, “Why is it not Friday yet?” At 8:15 on Monday. I started using the silly response, “Because we are unfortunately doomed to experience time in a linnear manner.” I used that response every single time, and after a few weeks she stopped asking. I think it was goofy enough that it stood out as repetitive and SHE got bored with the interaction.

    7. Lilysparrow*

      I can’t imagine making a crack like that to a senior colleague first thing in the morning. After a long meeting, a stressful deadline, working overtime, sure. But walking in the door? Not a good look.

      I’ve had jobs where the senior people would have responded with something like, “If you’d rather be napping than working, I’m sure that can be arranged.” Or flat-out, “No, it’s time to get some work done, Wakeen.”

      I probably wouldn’t be quite that sour myself. But it might get to that point if it was irritating enough.

    10. Angwyshaunce*

      That sounds annoying, but it could be worse. We have a co-worker who literally takes a 2 hour nap in his car every day.

    11. Seven hobbits are highly effective, people*

      “Nope, you missed it! Naptime ended at 5:30am.”

      Otherwise, I don’t think I’d bother unless this was happening in a customer/client-facing area.

    13. LunaLena*

      “Uh oh, someone’s got a case of the Mondays!”

      Whenever I have a co-worker like that, I just mentally substitute that Office Space scene, which usually leads to remembering something else I found amusing, and so on down the rabbit hole until I eventually forget what even started that train of thought.

    14. Garland not Andrews*

      Possibly, the next time just say “Dude, that horse is soooo dead it’s rotting, can you leave off already?” Said in totally eye rolling tone of voice. You are putting on him the fact that he is being annoying and ridiculous in a totally childish (bratty little brother) way.

    15. Seeking Second Childhood*

      I’d be hard pressed not to say “Once was funny”… and let it hang there in the air while he senses the awkward ness.

    16. Not So NewReader*

      “Coirker, we are all tired. I find that mention of rest/naps only makes me more tired. Stop dwelling on naps.”
      OR
      “Yes, it’s time for your nap. Go home take your nap and stop asking us that.”
      OR
      “Not for me. *I* am here to work.”
      OR
      ” You say that every day. I will not be answering that question any more.”

  14. Fake it til you Make it*

    How do you work through a last month or two of your employment when you’re totally burned out, have put in notice, and the workplace is super toxic? I work in a human services field, and am in a situation that is really not good (of no fault of my own according to just about everyone).

    1. Kathenus*

      You remember that how you finish out your time there will reflect on you as a professional, not just now but potentially in the future via references, contact between people at current job and others in the field, and your own sense of wanting to do well in your work regardless of the circumstances. You don’t want the reputation of being that person who checked out during their notice period, because that’s the last impression people there have of you and it could come back to haunt you later. And, every day especially when it gets tough, you remember that there’s a light at the end of the tunnel and that you’re almost on to something better. Good luck.

    2. Utoh!*

      Can you call in sick a couple of days, or take some PTO so you aren’t there as much during your last couple of months? I’m curious why you gave them so much notice instead of just two weeks? Can you leave sooner especially due to the toxic environment?

      1. Fake it til you Make it*

        Because of my position, I have to give a larger chunk of time. I also have to complete the notice period to get my sick time/PTO out/Insurance payouts. :(

    3. Anona*

      Can you give yourself little rewards? Things like creating a paper chain at home with each of your days left, and taking one off. Or treating yourself to lunch once a week or getting really yummy lunch ingredients if you bring your lunch. Or planning really good self care days for the weekends. Or listening to a really fun new podcast on the way to/from work. If you have any sick days left, taking one for a mental health day, or scheduling a few doctor’s appointments through the end of your time there, to give you a good break. Same with vacation days– planning and spreading out a few between now and the end of your work.

      You just have to get through it! You’re almost there!

    4. Hillary*

      it’s ok to slack. finish your minimum requirements, focus on your clients if you have them, but also give yourself space to breathe.

      1. Finally Back In A 'Proper Job'*

        Man – I’ve been there! I had to give three months notice in a work environment that caused mental and physical health problems I am still dealing with a year later!

        I agree with Kathenus. I was soooooo close to just walking TF outta there on more than one occasion but I really wanted to leave with dignity, knowing I had done the right thing. I did a few things:

        – I focussed on the positive impact I could make for those within the company who weren’t monsters. E.G. If I finish project X well, then so-and-so will find Y better. Those little things were like my little ‘legacy’.
        – I made a list of everything I had to finish or handover and just forced myself to work systematically through it. Every time I crossed something off, I felt amazing!
        – I was VERY public about not taking on ANYTHING over an above what I had on that list.
        – I worked only the exact hours I had to (and occasionally took a longer lunch break than I should have).
        – I made sure I spent as much time as I could with the not-monster people and actively avoided (to the point of almost rudeness) the monsters.
        – Like Anona suggests, I scheduled in weekly treats (massage, yummy meal, seeing a friend etc).

        In the end, the time passed quickly enough.

        My biggest advice is though to make sure you take as much time as finances allow after you finally get out. I had 2 months and it wasn’t enough. Focus completely on you, your health and your mental health. Tonnes of healthy eating, time in nature, mindfulness etc!

        Well done for getting out of there and good luck!

      2. Seeking Second Childhood*

        One thing that helped me when I was in a bad job…when I was at my most frustrated, I would stop the stressful task and do something that would prevent stress in the future. (ie pick something that’s important but not time-critical, on an Urgent Important Matrix/Eisenhower Decision Grid.) I got this from a co-worker who’d say “I don’t want to do my job so I’m going to do my job instead.”
        One Important-but-not-time-critical thing to do is to pause your frustrating task and write up the task. That way if a manager interrupts you, you can point out that you’re putting 15-20 minutes into documentation for their new hire and that you’ll be right back on their deadline after your procedures are on paper. Best parts? You can write up how it’s SUPPOSED to go….and maybe include workarounds when someone forgets/ignores a step. And every time you do it, you’ll be reminding yourself that you have only a fixed amount of time left before it’s not your responsibility any longer.
        Congrats & good luck!

    5. Accountant (Aspiring to be)*

      I am one week away from finishing my two-month notice period at a pretty toxic job and the thing that has kept me going is reminding myself EVERY TIME something bad happens that my days there are numbered. (Literally numbered – I wrote a countdown of all the work days in my calendar. It’s probably been a little weird sometimes when a colleague has been like “not long now eh?” and I’ve been like “after today I’m working another 22 days!” so I’ve tried to stop responding that way … but it’s really hard not to be gleeful.) Sometimes it’s been after huge, upheaving decisions from above that have left everyone else reeling; sometimes it’s just been a rude customer on the phone or something else mundane. But probably every single day I’ve told myself at least once, “just x days left!”

      I also relished zoning out in meetings when the topic moved to something that wouldn’t concern me. And deleting emails about things that will happen after I’ve left.

      Also envisioning the After. I’m both moving and trying to break into a new field (have the degree but got an exciting unrelated job that was great … until it sucked) so I’m giving myself time to daydream about the things I hope I get to work on, the towns I might live in, looking at flats for sale (I did this for fun before I decided to move so I guess that’s just spending time on a pre-existing guilty pleasure though). Hopefully this will also get me through my upcoming unemployment, however long it lasts!

    6. Not So NewReader*

      BTDT.
      Change your focus.
      Have daily goals of things you want to wrap up before you leave.

      You now work for your resume and your interviews of the future. Do things that would be great on a resume or for use in an interview. “Tell me about a time you had to deal with a difficult cohort.” Challenge yourself to act in a exemplary manner, such that you could use it in an interview in years to come.

      Put things in a peaceful place as much as possible. Set it up so that if you run into people years from now you are not dying on the inside. “Jane, we most certainly had our ups and downs. But I want you to know that I wish you the best in the future.” Find a high road and take it, because not too much matters any more as you are outta there.

      Also start thinking about how much you have learned about yourself and about human nature. Very few people walk away from a human service job UNchanged. Think about how you have changed for the better. Toxic people DO sharpen us in many ways. I currently have a boss who apologizes for making extra work. Honestly, I breeze right through the extra work like it’s nothing. Because it is nothing compared to where I have been, old me would not have been as able to walk right through that extra work. My toxic work place strengthened me in ways I never anticipated.

    7. Teapot Magic*

      Every single day, Look at yourself in the mirror and give a flying kiss (‘Mwah! I’m so freaking awesome I have the courage to get out of this place! I’m so proud of me!’). . Take a bathroom break on the hour and do a one minute dance …. These will bring joy to your heart. Ride on that wave the whole day.

      In the evening, Get a nice treat, rewarding you for getting out of that toxic place! Massage, chocolate, flower, dinner, cake, whatever you like – a small portion of it. Go for a run or exercise! Build on those endorphins!

      Save the best reward for the final day or day after your last day!

  15. Mirabellaninani*

    I’m soon to be leaving my job to take a short career break while we wait for a nursery place for my daughter to become available.
    I work as a trust fundraiser for a medical research charity in London, England. I enjoy fundraising but am toying with the idea of a complete career change.
    What I’d love to do is be part of the fight against climate change. There are some environmental charities in London but it’s a small sector. What I’m also considering is working for a private company – maybe an environmental tech startup seeking funding? I have strong experience in converting scientific detail into proposals for a lay audience. I feel like this could translate well into an account management/sales role.
    Any advice/thoughts on the type of role or company where I may be able to transfer my skills would be hugely appreciated.

    2. Jules the 3rd*

      With all the attention that climate change is getting, there’s probably a surprising range of opportunities for “converting scientific detail … for a lay audience”. I know there have been some ‘science writer’ discussions here (google google): check the July 13 open thread, and though I can’t find it, I think one of our sci writers wrote extensively about how to get into the field. There’s freelance and corporate opportunities.

      Corporations to look into: tech companies, esp any tech manufacturing ones like Nokia, IBM, etc. London’s a little hard for that, most manufacturing in that geographic area is over in Ireland, but there’s a MTA – Manufacturing Technologies Association there that might have some good info. I know GlaxoSmithKline’s got offices in London.

      Good luck

    3. Overeducated*

      Maybe something like technical writing for a company making products you believe contribute to solutions could be another option? It seems like there are more openings for that than in general science writing (based, anecdotally, on what technical writers I know tell me).

  16. k8isgreat*

    So, every time there is a questions about dog friendly workplaces Alison asks the community not to discuss the benefits/downsides of dog friendly places since it derails the discussion. But can we do that here? Honestly, I am not in favor. I don’t have terribly strong feelings about it, but I’m not a dog person in general and would rather not spend my day surrounded by dogs. It’s a not a deal breaker for me, but it’s also not a perk. I think I’m way in the minority on this topic and would love to here what other people have to say.

    Alison, please let me know if this is not appropriate.

      1. Tina Belcher's Less Cool Sister*

        Same! I love my pup more than anything, so there’s no way I could have him in my office and still be productive. I’d always be wanting to play with or pet him, not to mention keeping an eye on him in case he wanders off or needs to go out. Plus, he’s at the stage where he alert barks to every noise so spending all day in an office would be torture for him.

        1. Sharrbe*

          This is why I’m in support of cat-friendly workplaces. Yes, they will try to sit on your keyboard for an hour, but then will then ignore you and sleep for the remaining seven. Win-win.

          1. Mellow*

            I’m an academic librarian and have been begging for a department cat or two. Of course the university administration would never go for it, but I think I am going to start putting up photos of cats around our office in places where they’d likely be (and doing what they’d likly be doing – sleeping!).

            Or – maybe I’ve just been single for too long. :D

            1. MayLou*

              I’d be so in favour of an office cat! We used to have a cat but she died 15 months ago, and we can’t get a new one (the dog would eat it) so I am cat-bereft. I love my dog but he is an absolute nuisance and one of the reasons I’m excited about starting an office-based job next week (!!! Next week!) after three years of freelancing from home is that he won’t be there to nudge nudge nudge nudge nudge me and beg for walks every ten minutes. Instead he’ll be having a wonderful time at dog nursery or out with his dog walker. Everyone wins!

        2. Slartibartfast*

          I have taken mine to work, at a veterinary clinic, when she’s in need of care. She’s obnoxious to the point I’ve considered sedation. There is no way I would bring her to a regular office. She loves everything and everyone, and will NOT be ignored!

          1. Tina Belcher's Less Cool Sister*

            That’s my pup too! He feels he is entitled to everyone’s attention at all times and gets frantic if someone ignores him (don’t worry, we’re working on it. He’s still a puppy).

    3. Grapey*

      I love dogs and wouldn’t mind company of dogs while I work (not possible since we’re in a laboratory but hypothetically…), but I also value humans over dogs being a perk. Meaning if someone were hired that was really allergic/fearful, I’d accept that the dogs would go away and wouldn’t try to fight to keep the dogs over a single individual like I’ve seen be argued in comments before.

      That said if I did work in a dog friendly place, I would also like to see some segregation of areas so there are sections of the floor for example where dogs would not be allowed. Sometimes even the best behaved dogs can be noisy and distracting when you’re in super focus mode.

      1. vw*

        Yes! Limit the dogs to certain areas or times and don’t penalize people who don’t want to be around dogs. Not everyone likes dogs, and I certainly don’t expect them to.

    4. The Cosmic Avenger*

      I’m not a dog person either, and I’m not particularly in favor of a dog-friendly workplace only because it’s one of those things that seems hard to have without impacting those who do not take part. But if you have a corporate culture that emphasizes and values responsibility and conscientiousness, like we do here, I think I would be OK with it.

    5. K8 M*

      I have a dog, and have worked in both dog friendly and non dog friendly offices. I’m not in favor, and I would never bring my dog in to the office. She’s fine at home, and I don’t need the distractions.

    6. Cheesesteak in Paradise*

      I’m not sure how different this is than baby or child friendly workplaces. You can like children and not want them as a distraction to your day. And can also like your (children) (dogs) but not want to deal with the questionable obedience or supervision of other people’s.

      I guess the main issue is that workplaces are not friendly to outside commitments versus an inherent goodness/badness of having kids or pets around…

      1. Denise*

        I agree that not wanting children or dogs at work isn’t necessarily reflective of a person’s liking of either; but I also think the main difference is that people have a more substantial reason for potentially bringing babies or children to work, whereas there’s no reason to have a pet at work, as they typically don’t require supervision during the day.

        I’ve worked in a place that had both babies (via a small preschool integrated into the office environment) and dogs, and eventually the dogs had to leave the office. Honestly, the kids were much, much less disruptive. They also made less of a mess, and didn’t completely destroy the leftover cake in the kitchen…

    7. CupcakeCounter*

      I would get fired for playing with dogs all day and not working so for the benefit of my bank account I also have to say no. I want a dog desperately but with our travel schedule and working hours it isn’t fair to the dog.

      1. whistle*

        Yes! This is how I feel, except that I have a dog. I love dogs, and dogs in the office would just be too distracting to me. It would be very hard to not pet and play with them all day long.

        And my dog would be super annoying an office all day long, so I wouldn’t be able to bring her, and then I’d feel bad about not bringing her. And I would come home smelling of dogs, so she would be jealous…

      2. Melissa*

        I’d be the person with 15 dogs visiting my office, because I’d leave an open dish of the good treats at the door.

    8. Llamalawyer*

      I am with you. I am not a dog person, either. I am allergic, and honestly scared of some dogs. I despise being jumped all over and being licked by a strange dog. You also run into the policing of dog behavior as some owners (like parents of children) are in denial or ignore their pets’ behaviors. I believe our building has a no animals rule (other than service dogs, of course) so I don’t have to worry about this.

        1. Caterpie*

          I LOATHE the crotch sniffing thing, especially when the owner is completely oblivious to it or just stands there laughing.

        2. JaneB*

          We have a no animals rule but someone has an exception because the dog is so CUTE and she’s so nice and hard working. It’s quite acceptable for a dog (actually it’s cute, quiet & well behaved most of the time to be fair, it’s not even a very smelly/sheddy dog, being part poodle) but I fundamentally dislike having a dog at work. It’s not fair on anyone entering the building not expecting it etc plus I’m sick of my colleague being a few minutes late to thusvor that because the dog had to pee, or assuming the dog is welcome at social events like say a birthday cake or coffee morning. It doesn’t feel at all fair and I considered a horrible meanie who doesn’t appreciate colleague for even hinting that I’d rather the dog stayed out of the office, away from coffee events etc.

    9. vw*

      I have a dog friendly workplace and I like it overall. Here are my thoughts:
      Dogs are definitely a distraction. They woof, they’re playful, they whine, people pet them, they need to be walked, etc. I think it really depends on the dog.
      We’re a remote first company, so people aren’t required to be in the office… ever. I’d like to see a day that’s the “dog day” so if you don’t want to be around woofers, don’t come in on Thursday (or whatever).
      We’re in the Midwest and the people I work with are “Midwest Nice” so I’m worried they won’t tell me if my dog is annoying.
      You need dog free areas for customer calls, etc.

      Overall, I think it should be limited a bit. I don’t want to work in an office where there’s always dogs running around, because I’m there to… work.

      1. k8isgreat*

        I love the idea of a dog day. I think I could be OK with dogs at work on like Fridays only. But every day is just too much.

        1. Lily Rowan*

          I was just thinking every day might be better than every so often! Because at a past job, people did sometimes bring dogs in on Fridays, and like half the staff would end up sitting on the floor playing with the dogs, which was super annoying to me. Both distracting because of noise, but also, didn’t any of them have work to do?? I was thinking if the dog was there all the time, it wouldn’t be such a novelty.

        2. AvonLady Barksdale*

          When I worked in a dog-friendly office I would bring my bud in maybe once every two weeks and then occasionally on request. It was very helpful if my partner was traveling (we don’t have a walker) or if we had plans to take the dog somewhere after work. Every day would have done me in. My dog is an excellent office doggy as he’s very gentle and friendly but super attached to me, he sleeps most of the day, and he’s pretty quiet. However, he also a dog– he needs to be walked, he gets whiny when he’s bored (every office day, he would start getting fussy at about 5:15pm), and it was my responsibility to keep an eye on him at all times. So I’m a dog person who is pro-dog-friendly office who also thinks every day is just too dang much.

    10. Catleesi*

      I also don’t feel super strongly about it, but would probably not prefer it. I don’t dislike dogs but I’m definitely not a “dog person”. Also, it would probably make me feel a little irritated that I couldn’t bring my (very social and not scared of new surroundings) cat to work.

      1. Grace*

        Yep. I have had cats that would love to socialise with new people, and would be very happy napping in a cardboard box under a desk lamp! Much less disruptive, yet generally not considered acceptable. I would be just a teensy bit bitter if I was in a workplace surrounded by dogs yet couldn’t bring a cat that is smaller and quieter and has just as much separation anxiety as a dog.

        1. Dragoning*

          Yes! Why don’t we hear about cat-friendly workplaces? Still have the allergy issues, but less noise and distraction, typically.

          Cats need changing environments and stimulation, too.

          1. vw*

            Litterboxes! Given the state of our office kitchen, I’d hate to see the state of an office litterbox.

            1. Catleesi*

              It would have to be the same as with dogs – the owner would need to take care of it in order for it to work. Like…not letting your dog pee all over the floor and leaving it locked in your office all day.

              That being said, I can’t imagine cat friendly offices becoming very common given that most cats wouldn’t care for it, and that people that aren’t cat people can be pretty outspoken and negative about cats.

          2. Not So NewReader*

            A store near by has a cat.
            There’s a big sign on the door, “Don’t let the cat out.”
            I can’t see that as working out, some day someone will mess up. Then the cat is gone.
            The cat used to hang out by the door a lot, so you had to “fight” your way in and “fight” your way out. No one came over to move the cat so you could leave without hassles.

          3. All Hail Queen Sally*

            I work (part time) in a cat friendly place. A shelter in my city loans cats out to businesses (mine is a yarn store) to help with socialization and exposure (of the cat) to the public. I can’t remember how long they have been doing this but I bet we’ve placed over 50 cats so far. Other places keep the cat in the cage (a huge thing about 4 ft wide and 5 ft tall) but as we are not so busy, we let ours run free. Yarn and cats–it’s a dream job!

      2. Lalaith*

        Oh yes, I would SO much prefer a cat-friendly workplace (never mind that trying to bring my actual cats to work… or anywhere really… would be mildly disastrous). Or an office cat, who I would gladly contribute to the care of. But cats can have any of the same drawbacks dogs do, so pet-free workplaces are probably the best way to go.

        1. Ewesername*

          We actually have an office cat. She can be distracting when she’s in the mood, but most of the time she’s happy sitting on the corner of someone’s desk or in her chair. (Yes, she has her own chair. It’s easier than constantly chasing her off ours).
          We tell people before they come in for interviews that she’s in the building and considered an employee. It’s up to them if it’s a deal breaker or not. We have a few people who aren’t crazy about cats and she generally leaves them alone. (But she is a cat, so… sometimes she’ll go see them anyway…)

          1. Not One of the Bronte Sisters*

            One workplace animal that is something of a mascot is one thing. There is a famous bar in Lake Worth, Florida that has a black cat named Speedbump. You can read all about him online. I LOVE cats but I wouldn’t bring my cat or my dog to work, nor would I want anyone else to. Far too much of a distraction.

    11. Newbie*

      I have a dog and it would be a huge perk for me to be able to bring her into the office. As in, such a big perk that a company that allowed me to do it would earn my undying loyalty. They could pay me well below market rate and I wouldn’t leave. I’d love to be able to spend time with coworkers’ dogs as well.

      That being said – my dog is very well-behaved (I know everyone says that about their dogs, but people often comment on how weirdly quiet and non-obtrusive mine is). I would NOT like to work in an office that lets badly behaved dogs continue to come in, as I think it would be very distracting. So I would really only be in favour of a strict policy dictating acceptable behaviour, which is well enforced.

      Also of note, I live in the U.K., and dog-friendly public spaces are much more common here than in North America. Dogs are usually allowed into pubs, cafes, etc.

    12. Nessun*

      I’m not a dog person (not afraid, but just never had one or bonded with one anyone else has owned). I’d rather not see it introduced in a workplace; the potential for mess and distraction does not compute for me at all.

    13. Joielle*

      I love dogs and have one myself but they are admittedly, on average, loud and at least somewhat gross. Barking, whining, slobbery toys, shedding, licking things, potential for peeing indoors. I’d much rather have a “no dogs” workplace than try to police which specific dogs are ok and which ones aren’t. So much potential for drama, when you could just… not.

      1. Liz*

        I’m a dog lover too although I don’t have one of my own. That being said, I think, like people, all dogs are different. Some are perfect, quiet, and give you no trouble at all. Others are loud, and obnoxious. And there are also dog owners who let theirs do whatever they want, whether its disruptive or not. So I’d definitely wouldn’t be too thrilled if my job became dog friendly. Mainly because its so unpredictable. You;d have people who are “good” owners, and others who think its ok to do whatever they please

    14. Ann Perkins*

      I have a dog and would generally not be in favor of a dog friendly office unless it were very, very limited. Like, one day a week only and you’re confined to a certain area. I’m sure it goes smoothly in some places but it seems to invite so many potential issues with allergies, fears, distractions, and dividing the office into dog lovers and non-dog lovers.

    15. Ruth (UK)*

      I have a mild fear of dogs. It doesn’t get in the way of my life (like, I won’t run in fear if I see a dog off the lead or anything. Most people wouldn’t even notice I’m afraid, and I think I come across as more uninterested from a stranger’s perspective. Though sometimes when a certain dog has approached me, it’s become clear that I’m stressed/nervous [I tend to freeze]).

      But I would 100% not work in a place where dogs being commonly about in the office was a regular occurrence, and if my current job became ‘dog friendly’ I would look to leave. I can put up with feeling a little wary or on edge when a dog crosses paths with me in the park/street (or even if they’re brought in on occasion, as my co-worker did one time). I am not willing to be around them all day every/most days.

      1. Tau*

        This is basically me as well. I’m not phobic or anything, but I’m nervous around dogs in a way that I would not be willing to deal with on a day-to-day basis.

      2. TechWorker*

        +1

        I’m not as scared as I used to be but no part of me enjoys being around dogs and I’d consider it a major downside/consider quitting.

    16. LCL*

      I would love it here. But only if we talked about rules and procedures beforehand. I would see it as a perk. OTOH, if I ran into a situation such as described earlier this month, of a very neglectful owner, it might be detrimental to my career. So put me down as total dog lover but ambivalent about dogs at work.

    17. Anona*

      I’m a dog person, but a few years ago when a few staff members brought their dogs to work, it was challenging.
      Some of the dogs got rowdy (running around with each other), just not conducive to doing work. So some kind of policy for when a dog’s behavior isn’t good is important.

      The idea of a dog day (suggested by vw) sounds great.

      1. It's Business Time*

        I think I would like to work in a dog friendly place, but like other commentators it would have to be regulated and that can get really difficult. I would however love to work in an office that has an office cat!

    18. Woof.*

      We have a dog friendly workplace! I’m not a dog owner but I like dogs, so it’s fun to have a little pat and play once in a while.
      The one thing that has bothered me is when our boss brings his dog and then LEAVES THE DOG IN THE OFFICE WHILE HE GOES OUT FOR APPOINTMENTS. Not like, coffee runs, but dentist appointments and tennis clinics. No one else does this besides him. :-|

      1. AvonLady Barksdale*

        Nooooooo, that is NOT cool. I think I left my dog in the office without me twice, for 15 minutes each time so I could run an errand, and that still wasn’t cool. Luckily I had co-workers who loved watching my dog and he sat by the window waiting for me the whole time anyway.

      2. vw*

        Oh no! My dog freaks out if I go to the bathroom (which is outside our office within the building).

    19. Anonymous Educator*

      I’ve worked in dog-friendly workplaces, and I’m not a huge fan. It can be fun. It can actually be nice having calm dogs sitting around or walking around. But the minute it comes even close to “Hey, hey, hey. Don’t do that” territory, then everyone in the office essentially took on a second job.

    20. Environmental Compliance*

      I’m an animal person in general, but I personally don’t want 95% of them at work. Either they’re distracting or you have allergy/other medical risks involved.

      I had a previous job that had a childcare facility onsite – I knew some other staff that would go visit their kiddos at lunch. That would be also quite awesome as like a kennel or doggy day care, or something like that. I’d very much enjoy a lunch break petting dogs, and they could have a little attached park or whatnot. Put picnic tables in and it’d be great. Separate areas, can still visit the animal, they get attention during most of the day, everyone wins.

    21. Hillary*

      I don’t like it. I’m not a dog person in general. My last company was somewhat dog friendly. A couple people brought their small dogs occasionally. And one of them made it through three closed doors to almost escape from the building. I stopped him, but I didn’t even know whose dog it was.

    22. Fiddlesticks*

      I’m not particularly a dog person, and don’t usually like having them in the office (MOSTLY because their owners seem to think that distracting, noisy and/or destructive canine behavior is “cute”), but I’d 100% prefer dogs in my office any day over children.

      Come to think of it, a lot of the folks who think their dog’s misbehavior is cute also feel that way about their children’s misbehavior…

    23. Zephy*

      I used to work at an animal shelter, and it wasn’t uncommon for people to have dogs (or cats, for that matter) in their offices. Usually they were foster animals, but sometimes people brought in their own pets from home – I’m not sure if they were bringing them in for vet care (we had a clinic on-site that provided basic services like vaccines, spay/neuter, and dental cleanings – employees got a discount), to keep an eye on them due to illness or injury, or just because. Most of the people that did this were managers, too, because only managers really had offices they could close off and protect their personal/foster animals from the germs inherent to a building that houses several hundred dogs and cats.

    24. Person from the Resume*

      I agree. I don’t have a dog because it would be inconvenient for me and not the best situation for the dog. (I don’t have a fenced in yard that I could put a doggy door in.) So clearly I’m not a huge dog person because I know people in 900 square foot 5th floor apartments in the city who have a dog.

      I’m against it because there are ways it can go wrong. The one allergic/dog-phobic person can “ruin it for everyone.” That person gets blame and hate, and for the employees drawn in by the perk of bringing their dog into work, they are rightfully disappointed in losing the perk that may have been a factor in their decision to accept the job there.

      Also as people are dumb and bad dog parents there will be unruly/untrained dogs brought into the office that should not be and management is unlikely to act swiftly to tell that dog owner that that dog must stay at home.

      It’s a situation asking for trouble, I think.

    25. Red Reader the Adulting Fairy*

      I love dogs, but I am not down with a dog-friendly office. My bigger dog is 11, so she’s super laid back and sedate, but she will, given half a chance, distract everyone she can reach by politely shoving her head under their hand so they can pet her without being inconvenienced, give everyone the best kisses she can manage (after loading up her bloodhoundy jowls at the water bowl so she doesn’t run out), and make sure everyone has an even coating of lovely red fur. (Plus she’s also dog-reactive; other dogs are the only thing that knock her out of sedate mode.) Besides, she’s retired, so she doesn’t have to go to work anymore. (But I can’t get her to quit coming into the office every day. ;) )

      And the little one (who is still 50 pounds) is a whippet mix, so she has two settings: hyperactive bouncing off the walls, or asleep. (And even when she’s asleep, she chases bunnies and blows raspberries at everyone. She’s currently hogging half my chair, kicking me in the kidneys and “thpp thpp thpp”.)

      1. Liz*

        Laughing at this because I used to watch a friend’s dogs, and one was a 30 lb or so whippet mix. same kicking of the kidneys and other body parts when I’d try and shift her on the bed. like “HOW DARE you try and move me mover 2 inches so you can stretch your legs out?”

    26. Not a Dog Person*

      Another not-dog person here. I find dogs at work distracting and tough on my allergies. Occasionally, one of my coworkers will bring theirs in, or the therapy dogs will come through for a visit – that’s fine, but please, not all the time. I like dogs, but I don’t really understand the passionate love that some folks have for them, enough to want to bring them to work. I mean, I love my kids, but I don’t want to bring them to work either…

    27. Spreadsheets and Books*

      I’m with you. I’m not a dog person and quite honestly do not get the appeal at all. I have a cat and I like him precisely because he does not require too much from me and I can go about my life without drastically altering plans to care for him.

      Adding extra noises and smells and the potential schedule upsets that a dog-friendly workplace entails sounds like my version of a nightmare office. If I found out a company I was considering was dog friendly, I wouldn’t take the job.

    28. fposte*

      I’ve worked in offices with a dog, but I’ve never worked in a multiple-dog situation. They were always owner-attached dogs, not generally wandering dogs, and one didn’t really like other people much so she wasn’t a petting distraction. The main problem was the barking at the delivery people.

    29. Lilysparrow*

      I like dogs, but I think it would be very distracting if it were an everyday, everywhere thing. There need to be clear, planned limits. And a nuisance policy that can be invoked when specific individual dogs are no longer welcome – or when specific owners are no longer allowed to participate.

      In my town, we don’t have an ordinance that specifies what kinds of pets you can have. I found this confusing until a city worker explained that we have a nuisance law instead. The reasoning is that there are no “protected classes” of animals. If it’s a nuisance to your neighbors, it has to go.

      So I think workplaces should keep a wide latitude on barring nuisance dogs without having to rules-lawyer the criteria (Excessive noise, aggression, damage from roughhousing, multiple accidents, stinkiness, etc.)

    30. I’m going to nope right here*

      I would HATE it! I get mildly sniffly, nothing too serious, but while I like the idea of pets and have had my own in the past, I don’t want to be around someone’s pets all day any more than I want to be around their kids, partner/spouse. I would probably search for a different job if I had to work with dogs every day.

    31. blackcat*

      I LOVE dogs. Do not own one because my lifestyle does not allow for it, but man, I love dogs! So much.
      I am also, super duper allergic to them. And I have asthma. I do fine petting a dog in the street, or playing with one outside. But I struggle in the homes of dog owners, and it would be completely untenable for me to work in a place where dogs were allowed anywhere near places I would work (including conference rooms and the like).

      I get why people want dogs around when they work. If I wasn’t so allergic I’d love it! But, also, my experience with a lot of dog lovers is that they tell me to take an allergy pill (I already do, daily!) and belittle my allergies. In reality, prolonged exposure to dogs can send me to the hospital.

      I think dog-friendly workplaces need to advertise that clearly so that people like me could NOPE right out of there. I probably couldn’t even get through an interview. And if you’re a dog-friendly workplace, you need to accept that you’ll rule out people who would otherwise be a good fit due to allergies/fear of dogs/etc. Maybe the perk to some other people is worth it to the company, but maybe not.

    32. Rachel*

      I work in a tiny office with 2 dogs. I’m indifferent to dogs, but these are fine because they are little couch potatoes. They have a regular spot where they curl up and sleep the entire day. Clearly this wouldn’t work if we had anyone with allergies or fear of dogs, but that is not the case here. If there were anyone with a problem – e.g., allergies or fear – then that should trump the dog owners and there should be no resentment expressed or shown by the dog lovers.

    33. Ada*

      I’m at a dog-friendly workplace, and tbh, I’d prefer not to be. We had one carpet ruined bc the owner would never walk the dog. Took corporate ages to replace it, so the office reeked for quite a while. Didn’t take long for the new carpet to be soiled. And on top of that, I was bitten once (thankfully not badly – it went for my calf and I was luckily wearing jeans that day). And before anyone asks, no I wasn’t doing anything to provoke the dog. It came up behind me while I was standing completely still waiting for a document to finish printing.

    34. NotaPirate*

      I wish there was an in between option. Like i dont want my dogs in the office and having to be distracting to me during the day. But id love to have them at lunch or take a 15 min walk break with them. I guess my in between would be a doggy daycare on site. Where you could drop them off and then sign them out for walks or lunch. Then people could watch dogs playing on their lunches too!

      1. Carbovore*

        Omg, I would love this and have sometimes wished it was an option.

        I work on a college campus so at least during the hours I am away from my dog, I do get to see lots of students walking their pups around campus and it’s kind of a nice little uplift without commitment! lol

    35. Carbovore*

      I am a dog-lover and I’m not in favor. Ideally, I’d love to work from home and be with my furry family member all the time (home is comforting and normal for her) but the few times I’ve brought her to work for just a visit, I glommed on quickly that it was very anxiety-inducing for my dog, which then definitely made me anxious for her.

      Secondly, I also rationally know that I would be absolutely distracted and a great deal of my day would be spent tending to an uncomfortable dog. And! I work in an open office and I just think it would be really rude to subject my coworkers to the added distraction as well. (It’s hard enough working in an open office!!!) Plus, there were a few times our dept head brought in her puppies and it was completely maddening–I was SO annoyed with her because the least she could have done was keep them in her office! (She has the luxury of having an office with a door! Why not take advantage?) Instead, she seemed to revel in having her puppies run all over, peeing on the carpet, and in general being an incredible nuisance. I had wished that day that I’d called out!

      Similarly, I’m allergic to cats and I know if I had to work in a cat-friendly office, it would be awful. I would never want to subject my coworkers to allergens at work just because I enjoy having my dog around.

    36. Dankar*

      We’re sort of dog-friendly in the summer, when work is very light. I work with academics who clear out for 3 or so months, so if I bring my dog in, it’s just me and her in the office (or even the entire building!) It lets me stay late if I need to, which I think is the major perk for my employer.

      That said, I have brought my dog in on days when she’s been vaccinated and needs to be watched. Those days she’s woozy, so I set up a gate and let her sleep under my desk with the heater. I also brought my mother’s dog in once when I was flying him back home to her. My office is <10 minutes away from the airport, so I came in to do some paperwork for a few hours, then left early with pup in tow.

      I would NEVER bring her in regularly. It's too distracting for me and coworkers, and it's really not fair to her. She prefers daycare over chewing an antler in the corner while I type. At least when she's at home, she can sleep in the bed.

    38. Seven hobbits are highly effective, people*

      I’d like to see more of a trend of “the office dog” where a specific dog (probably belonging to the business owner for a small business) goes to work every day and not a bunch of random dogs. Dogs don’t always get along with each other, and you basically need a doggie HR to deal with telling people not to bring in the disruptive ones again, dealing with the dog versus dog conflicts, and enforcing standards of dog behavior.

      On the other hand, when I worked in a 3 person law office, we’d have a specific, single dog in there most days and it was really nice to have him around. We knew which one of us was officially in charge of him, but all three of us were dog people and knew how to deal with minor dog behavior moments. It also helped that this was a small and open enough physical space that the dog was always going to be fairly near the person who was supposed to be keeping an eye on him. It wouldn’t have worked with a puppy, or a poorly-trained adult dog, but if the office has someone with enough slack in their time to have their job include walking the dog every few hours (ideally, the person who owns the dog, but if the entire small group is “dog people” it’s possible someone else wouldn’t mind this as a work duty – I’d be fine getting to walk someone else’s dog every day “on the clock” as long as the dog was well behaved) and it’s an older dog that takes naps, it can work out. I think the difference here is that everyone can get into a routine. Dogs like routines, and a lot of them go into “demo mode” in new situations and are extra ridiculous until they settle down.

    39. Jen RO*

      I don’t hate dogs, but I am very indifferent to them. I am not allergic (I think!), but I would not want to feel forced to interact with them, lest the owner think I am ignoring Fluffy because I am a horrible person. So, to me, a dog-friendly workplace would be more of a con than a pro.

    40. Beth*

      Between allergies and a residual phobia (I was mauled by a dog when I was 8), I would be entirely unable to work in a “dog-friendly” place, if that meant there would be dogs there on any more than a very occasional basis. An office with multiple dogs, or just one dog that wasn’t truly well-behaved, would be hell for me.

    41. slow down*

      I have dogs and I love them. I have never worked in a dog-friendly environment necessarily. However, every single time I have interviewed or had a meeting somewhere that is dog friendly, it’s really put me off. On 3-4 occasions I’ve come in for meetings and the office is kind of gross because there is dog smell, toys, or food and water bowls everywhere; the dogs have been a huge distraction trying to get my attention or wanting me to play with them; their owners have let them be in meetings or approach me freely (which isn’t gonna be ok with everyone); and I’ve witnessed the dogs distraction others who are walking by.

      I’ve also seen a couple of instances where the office was dog friendly, and in my opinion completely inappropriately. Both of these times the dog was in a medical office. Once the ED had her dog with her every day, and in the other a receptionist did. I found it to be a big distraction to patients and one of those dogs was kind of filthy and did not make me feel good about getting medical treatment in that office.

    42. Garland not Andrews*

      I love my little man, but not at work. Even when I had a really laid back sort of dog, I think my focus would be on keeping my dog happy and comfortable and not so much on my work.
      I don’t mind the occasional visit, but would prefer not to have pets in the office.

    43. Nora Lenderbee*

      I’ve had coworkers who brought in dogs that were very quiet and well-behaved. I don’t mind at all. But the whole dog-friendly policy goes out the window (as it should) the first time a dog pees/poops in the office.

      I also agree that people who have allergies or don’t like to be around dogs shouldn’t be subjected to dogs in the office.

    44. square toes*

      I actually don’t love dogs, but “dog friendly” at my job works because it’s used in the following way: people bring in their dogs in exceptional circumstances only. That means that someone brings in a dog 3 or 4 times a year. It requires all the people who work to be responsible – we’re not a doggie daycare. But, if someone brought in their dog everyday? I’d hate it.

    45. Overeducated*

      I would really not enjoy this, and I’d probably get resentful and say “ok can I bring an infant then?”

      My workplace does “doggy days” one Friday a month, but I can’t complain about that – restrooms and kitchens are marked “dog-free spaces,” you can put a sign on your office door if you want it to be as well, and Friday is such a low attendance day due to telework/compressed work schedules/leave that I have yet to actually see a dog in the building.

      1. Rodge*

        I don’t actually like dogs all that much (I think they’re cute from a distance but I’m not really down to be touched by them), and my office is dog-friendly. I like it. We have a few regular dogs that come in that are very well-behaved and quiet. I never find them distracting at all. I guess they are older dogs, they don’t do a lot of playing and mostly sit around looking cute. Their owners are very responsible and if the dog is sitting near you will make sure you’re okay with it and would promptly take them away if anyone wanted to be left alone.

        For me it’s not necessarily a plus, but it’s not a negative and I can see how much joy it brings most of my coworkers to be able to give a quick pet whenever they want. It is certainly a plus for the dog owners themselves. So while I have less-than-no desire to have a dog myself, I think dog-friendly offices can work really well if the dogs are well-behaved. Our work can be stressful and I think the dogs ameliorate that for a lot of people without being annoying to the ones who don’t like dogs.

    46. I'm A Little Teapot*

      I’m ok with dogs in the work place – on specific and limited days. IE, one day a quarter. With a zero tolerance policy for poor owner/dog behavior, and strict guidelines on where the dogs can physically go. Why? Some people are afraid. Some are allergic. And some just don’t want to deal.

    47. Amethystmoon*

      It’s not that I don’t like animals — I find them cute, but I’m allergic and would not be able to work near them. The dander gets me every time. I choose to admire dogs & cats from afar on Facebook.

    48. noahwynn*

      I’m not in love with the idea, and I have both a dog and a cat at home that I adore.

      I worked in one environment where someone had a retired service dog and that dog was so well behaved. Obviously it was trained that way from its time as a service animal, but I wouldn’t mind that again. He spent most of the day under his owners desk or following the owner around. You were allowed to pet him if they were walking by though, since he wasn’t working anymore.

      The second place was semi-dog friendly and two people occasionally brought their dogs in. One was high strung and liked to bark. It was annoying. The other was fine when he was a small puppy but as he got older and bigger had too much energy for the office. They behaved like dogs, but it wasn’t helpful in the workplace as anything but a distraction.

    49. Accountant*

      I have a dog and I don’t think I would like working with dogs all around the office either.
      Now a cat I could deal with!

    50. Policy Wonk*

      I love dogs but am allergic to them. Some breeds don’t bother me much but others make me miserable very quickly. And while my workplace char force keeps the place pretty clean, it is not the kind of cleaning that removed allergens. If people brought in dogs I would not be able to work more than a couple of hours before I’d have to leave. Thus I am not in favor of dog friendly workplaces.

    51. smoke tree*

      I like dogs and in theory would enjoy hanging out with a dog at work. But in practice a lot of people have badly behaved dogs and take great offense if you ask them to get their dog to stop chewing on your stapler or whatever. I once worked with a dog that bit multiple people and barked at customers and it embittered me to the whole experience.

    52. PetticoatsandPincushions*

      I love having the option to bring in my dog when necessary- for example when my heat went out this winter for a week, I was able to keep him with me during the day and not worry about running space heaters in a house with no humans, or finding emergency pet sitting. But he’s a shy dog and I am in a public facing position, so I also spent a lot of emotional energy making sure he was comfortable and content behind my desk, which pulled focus from my actual job. And he pulled my energy even being an incredibly quiet and well behaved dog. I’m not sure most people have the self-awareness to be observant and controlling of a dog’s behavior, mood, and effect on others in the workplace if they are there 24/7. But I still appreciate the perk so much, so I come down more on the side of making it available, but perhaps placing more responsibility on workplaces and employees to ensure that the social contract is met and no one is peed on or harassed or distracted by those dogs to a measurable extent, including their owners!

    53. Rhymetime*

      As someone who likes dogs but is allergic to them, I think my workplace has a good policy. Dogs are welcome in their humans’ personal office space but nowhere else in the building–not the kitchen, not the conference rooms, not the hallways.. They must have a dedicated blanket or dog bed and not be on the carpet. They must be well-trained and quiet. All of these requirements are in writing.

      Because I’m allergic, I almost didn’t take my job last year because I only found out that it was a dog-friendly place when I got my offer letter and a copy of the employee handbook. I told HR that I needed to see the place in person and how this worked. They showed me where I would be working, offered to purchase me an air filter if needed, and affirmed that anyone can speak up if a particular dog is a problem.

      It has worked out well. Only once did I need to remind someone that their dog wasn’t free to roam the building with her, and she immediately apologized and has been conscious about the policy ever since.

      I realize that for some people, just setting foot in a building where a dog has been causes them allergic distress. Fortunately for me, it’s worked out fine.

    54. Katt*

      I’m with you! Personally, big dogs terrify me. I don’t mind smaller ones, but I still think they could be wildly distracting if they started barking in the midst of a call, etc.

      That said, I’ve always half-joked that if I ever open my own law practice it’s going to have an office cat. (Assuming it was a small office and the cat was amenable to all involved, that is!) Maybe it’s just the cat person in me, but it just seems far less disruptive.

  17. T3k*

    So I don’t know if I should try for this, or even reach out to anyone first regarding it.

    In short, I’m working on getting an associate’s degree in X field (I have a bachelor’s degree already but in an entirely different area) and currently working at the bottom level for a company, doing customer service. I just saw the same company post a job in X field, but the caveat is that it requires 2 or more years experience, and I have less than a year in that field in a more junior position and it does sound like the person needs to have experience in the required tasks (all typical for the position). Currently at my rate, I won’t finish my degree for about 2 years as I’m working full time. I also know I have a better chance for junior positions, but those are almost impossible to find in this industry (they typically go to interns). My question is should I even bother applying, or should I reach out to the person to ask about it first (I don’t know them, it’s a very large, multinational company but the job is in the same city/group of buildings as I am). Thanks!

    1. Anne of Green Gables*

      Do you have a supportive manager? If yes, I’d ask their advice. They may have insight into how likely this would be in your company and could potentially put in a good word for you, and explain the situation.

      1. T3k*

        Yes and no. We do customer service but it’s not related to the field I want to get into (and the job is in) so while they’re supportive, their word wouldn’t mean much here (other than to point out my work ethics)

        That said, funnily enough it appears we’re due for an annual review soon to discuss my job, achievements, how I’m feeling, etc. with it so I should probably read up on ways to see how I can mention trying to move laterally in the company. I’m just afraid they may try to push me out if I do mention it.

      2. MsManager*

        Seconded! And, applying even though you’re not quiiite ready (as an internal specifically) could also be a good way to put yourself on that hiring manager’s radar for future roles…or it could make you come across as delusional. Your manager would probably be a good sounding board for that, as long as they’re supportive and not someone likely to turn it back on you as evidence that you’re somehow not committed to your current job.

        1. T3k*

          Yeah, I’m hoping they’re supportive here (I mean, it is customer support with high turnover and while some have been here for years and rose in the ranks, I ultimately don’t want to make a career in it). Thankfully we’re set to have a annual review soon so I’m hoping I can use that as a way to open discussions of where I’d like to move within the company.

  18. Is there Snoozing update?*

    Did the reader “Snoozing Loser” who was fired after falling asleep after a marathon of work ever come back with an update?

    I think about them sometimes and hope life got better.

    3. CatCat*

      I’ve been looking for that person in the comments too and hoping they re-appear and things have gotten better.

      I still think about you, “Snoozing Loser,” and wish the best for you. You got a totally raw deal and deserve a workplace that treats you with humanity, dignity, and respect.

    5. froodle*

      God that one haunts me. Wishing you all the good things if you’re out there, Snoozing! That was some out of order ridiculousness from your old company.

      1. Easily Amused*

        I worry about this poster too. I hope they are doing ok and have found some solace and support in real life.

  19. Sorry This is So Long!*

    Removed for use next week, with the OP’s permission. (Leaving this here so people aren’t confused about where it went.) – Alison

  20. WellRed*

    I quite enjoyed yesterday’s nursing comments and question.
    My question: We recently were acquired by a larger company, but will continue to operate independently, own brand, etc etc. I need to ask for a raise (COLA). Obviously, I speak to my manager but I wonder just how “independent” decisions like that are or will the parent really have a say/policy in everything. Thoughts?

    1. Jules the 3rd*

      Different for every company / structure. Some acquisitions end up tightly integrated, some not.

  21. Tigger*

    I have just been feeling ‘off’ this week.Feeling so overwhelmed with work and like I am always behind and disappointing my customers. Any tips on bouncing back?

    Thank goodness it is Friday.

    1. AccountantWendy*

      Take an hour on Monday morning to do nothing but think about your work and build a plan. Figure out priorities. Whatever you need to ensure that you know what you want to accomplish and how you’re going to accomplish it. I had a really terrible manager, we were like oil and water, but one thing I did learn from her was that you can’t just have a “to do” list. You need to actually have a plan for your day and your week so that you know what you need to accomplish, and can respond to changing priorities. This means carving some time out at the beginning or end of your week to just think about work. It’s something that helped me lot and got rid of the “feeling behind” because I knew where all my deadlines were and could manage expectations with stakeholders regarding time-lines. I wasn’t less overwhelmed (my work load was way too high) but it did help me realize just how much I was trying to cram into a day or a week and understand what was and wasn’t going to be accomplished. (I personally used the planning tools from a company called Ink & Volt but there’s many methods you could follow).

    2. Arts Akimbo*

      Long-distance platonic internet love and hugs! I’m in the same headspace right now. Any tip I offer is of the “do as I say, not as I do” variety, and that’s be kind to yourself. Practice as much self-care as you possibly can– that’s the only thing that keeps my reservoirs even slightly filled at times like these. Do things you love in your off hours, even if that’s eat peanut butter out of the jar with a spoon in your bathrobe on the couch while bingeing tv shows. It’s ok to be selfish with self-care when you’re nearing burnout. (Or at any time you need it!)

  22. ArtK*

    Job search: I got rejected for a job that I’ve wanted for a very long time. The whole process took almost 5 months from the time that the original recruiter contacted me. Back to the drawing board, I guess.

    The search for me has been difficult for a lot of reasons. I’m old. My current job doesn’t give me any opportunity to keep up with new technology and I haven’t found projects that I could use to learn new technology to do on my own. There are some jobs that I won’t do: Defense and anything that makes money off of selling people’s information (i.e. Google/Facebook.)

    For the time being, I’m going to accept that my current job is at least paying the bills; it doesn’t suck so bad that I’d walk out without something new. I’ll focus on things outside of work that make me happy, like food, travel and hobbies. *sigh*

    1. The New Wanderer*

      Ah, that sucks. I remember you posting about getting a second shot with a company (I think it was that job opportunity) and it sounded promising, sorry to hear it didn’t turn out better.
      I hope you find something better soon!

      1. ArtK*

        Thanks. Yes, this was the one that gave me a 2nd shot. I’m going to reach out to the original recruiter and let him know that I’m still interested in finding work there. I *may* reach out on LinkedIn to the hiring manager (after a month or so) — he’s someone that I would have networked with in any case.

  23. SOAS*

    FyI in advance.. a lot of feelings and jumbled thoughts that I’m still trying to make heads and tails of.

    So, I randomly picked up a call and it was a recruiter who had an opportunity. The job description is literally exactly what I do/used to do. The recruiter asked my salary and I named something REALLY high and he said that’s doable. I wasn’t looking to move. And just yesterday I found out there’s a strong chance I’ll be promoted to a management position for another team at my current job. I will take it only if the money is right (another post about that). So now I’m torn. I need to take a step back and evaluate this but I think right now I am too emotional to really make sense of a lot of it.

    What I like here:

    Open, casual environment. I know I’ve complained about people here, BUT I like the culture. It’s really relaxed, people are friendly and joke around for hte most part. I would prefer this as opposed to working from home or being shut in an office all the time. Very relaxed dress code. My breaks aren’t micromanaged.

    I like a lot of the work I do, tax prep payroll etc.

    It’s a pretty big office now, 100 or so employees. Not as toxic or cliquey as it used to be. (*but not perfect).

    Health insurance benefits is pretty decent
    But the biggest point is that I love working with my manager, we have a great relationship and it’s taken me so long to get to this point, I am not sure if/how I could do it again. He is the one who told me about this and said he’d be losing his right arm but pushed me to be in that position.

    What I don’t like:
    Politics. Specifically, we can’t do anything with our team, yet other teams are given the autonomy to staff and manage their teams as they see fit. We had a lot of bad performers on our team, but aside from talking and documenting, the director and HR would NOT let us fire them. (the only one we were able to let go we could only let go b/c they had a loud shouting match in the open office, their performance issues and attitudes would not have gotten them fired). Our stronger team members (who we’d spent a lot of time invested into training and coaching) were poached by other teams. They even took me for a week which was a really bad idea lal around. When we tried to push back, we were told we’re not being team players and ungrateful for all the times WE were helped in previous years…we had needed that help b/c we always historically had bad performers! It feels like our team has always been set up to fail, even though our numbers show we were pretty successful despite all that….which makes that cycle continue.

    I know the job w the recruiter may not pan out for a million reasons but I guess it couldn’t hurt to dip my toe? But I am just really really scared of the unknown. especially smaller environments. As much challenges I’ve had here, I’ve always desperately wanted to be permanent somewhere. It took me just so long to learn things here and get used to the people, culture, politics etc.

    1. Aspiring Chicken Lady*

      Pursue both, see what happens. Make a decision when it’s decision time, but keep your pro/con lists rolling the more info you get.

      1. SOAS*

        My manager talked to me a bit about it. He said the details will be fleshed out but I’m the top choice to manage that team. My fear is that am I up for it b/c there’s no one else? People here hate bookkeeping. He said he doesn’t want to lose me but that’s the best way to get me to the next level (i.e. make more $$$$).

    4. Lilysparrow*

      You can’t evaluate anything without more information about the other job. So follow up on it and find out.

      When you have two actual offers in hand, you can compare them. You can’t compare hypotheticals.

    5. TL*

      It never hurts to talk about another opportunity. In fact, you’re in the best possible position you could be in to evaluate this right now because they need to sell you on this opportunity. You’re pretty comfortable where you are, so go in with that idea and really interview them to see if it’s something you’d ever want to consider. And if it’s not, you don’t!

        1. Not One of the Bronte Sisters*

          Pursue both and find out more information. You haven’t actually been offered either of these jobs yet. A good friend of mine once said to me, “Don’t talk yourself out of a job you haven’t been offered.”

  24. Grad School for Career Change*

    I found out last week that got into grad school to make a career change, woohoo! Now I just need to slog through 4-6 years of working full time and studying part time with evening/online classes. I’m pretttttty sure I intend to stay with my current employer until I graduate, but ya never know.

    Here’s my question: do I tell my boss and coworkers? It’s a small office and so far, only two people know: my closest work friend and the supervisor who wrote my letter of recommendation (the supervisor and I are very friendly and I generally trust her not to let it slip). They both know I’m not ready to let the cat out of the bag yet. But when? If I wait until I’m into my last semester it’ll seem so odd that I haven’t shared this information over the years, but if I tell them in the near future I worry I’ll be passed up for projects because I’ll be perceived to have one foot out the door.

    1. Federal Middle Manager*

      I would go ahead and tell your manager. It shows you are ambitious and striving for continual self-development. And there may come a time when projects come to a head at the same time and you need some leeway to cover grad school stuff (I manage a woman who was in the final semester of a grad program and needed to take a personal day a week to complete some intensive coursework).

      Your manager likely won’t think of something 4-6 years away as a foot out the door, a lot can happen to anyone in 4-6 years (promotions, life events, new jobs, illness, etc.). And you never know, you might get put on projects related to your new interest if your company knows about it.

      1. Federal Middle Manager*

        Replying to self to note that you already told your supervisor. Tell others casually, but sooner rather than later. Not bragging, but just as a “Hey what did you do this weekend?” “Oh, I’m taking classes at night for X and so I spent most of my time inside even though it was so nice out!”

    2. NoLongerYoung*

      I’m in favor of mentioning classes, but unless it’s obviously a career change that shouts “I can’t use this info here…” I would not even say “for a career change ” when talking about it. Lots of folks have “get a X degree” on their bucket list, whether or not they use it for their career. (Some of us did complete degrees and wound up “not going into that field…” but learned a lot that was applicable). So….think about easing into it unless you expect the question of “will you be leaving?”

  25. It's a plane!*

    Any ideas on how to make a workshop more interactive and fun? I’m in a new position and the person in my position before apparently had fun things to make regional trainings a hit through gamifying it:
    -Kahoot
    -Jeopardy
    -Musical chairs
    -Deal or No Deal

    What are some really interesting trainings you’ve been to or led and how did you make it more interactive? These were all already done in the past year so I don’t want to recycle. I’ve thought about doing “Who Wants to be a Millionaire” with training materials scattered about (think: we have a topic that we are training a group of 30 people on) but that seems to focus on just one player. I’ve also thought about just printing out a “Yes/No” paddle for answering questions because that seems more interactive than just asking people to answer my questions.

    I would like to make it fun for the participants but not too hokey, and I don’t think they want to move around too too much. All the things I have googled are “team building activities” and not really how to make your presentation more interactive. Thanks!

    1. PegLeg*

      A Family Feud style game is always a hit at my organization. Each table represents a “family” and sends up a person for each questions, and its okay if there are 4 or 5 people racing to answer, even though traditionally the game just has 2. I also recently went to a training that used Plickers to answer questions and that was new and somewhat interactive. Every person gets a printout of a QR code that has a side for A, B, C, or D and they hold it with their answer on top, then the facilitator scans the room with their phone and a graph of the group’s answer immediately pops up on the screen. It seemed like a great way to gather opinions, or for testing knowledge gain.

      1. It's a plane!*

        Oh, those both sound like awesome ideas! I hadn’t heard of Plickers. There’s so many new apps coming out like that I can’t keep up. With the family feud, did y’all use a buzzer?

        1. PegLeg*

          No, we aren’t that fancy! :) We actually had each team pick a noise that was their buzzer (for example, bark!, eep!, wowowow!…) and that made it pretty funny.

      2. WellRed*

        Is there a reverse of this? We are doing a live chat and are wondering about a way for the audience to submit questions.

    2. Four lights*

      At my office they were able to do questions at the end that you could answer on your smart phone. Then it would show ( on the presentation screen) which percentage of people picked what answer. I’m not sure what program they used though. I thought it was a good way to get people engaged in the material.

        1. Minocho*

          We had presenters in an all day tech programming workshop use Menti, and it was good for a little unobtrusive interactivity.

    3. Grits McGee*

      This may not work for every subject, but I really like doing activities that directly tie into the training and augment it, rather than just doing something for the sake of breaking the ice or breaking up long lectures.
      Some things that have been particularly effective have been

      1. Working in a group to create a promotional poster (as a wrap up to a session about getting buy in for a project)
      2. Writing questions on large posters and have people walk around and write their answers
      3. For multi-day trainings with group tables, assigning seats and then changing up the groups each day, with a short (less than 10 min) icebreaker to start the day
      4. Role playing exercises (multiple small groups with everyone participating, not a couple people acting a situation out in front of the rest of the group)

      The main thing is to keep “fun” on the short side. I’ve been to trainings where the game/icebreaker component has gone on for over an hour, and it’s miserable when you just want to get down to business and you’re thinking about how much work you need to get done once you’re back at your desk.

      1. Minocho*

        I’ve heard of a Scrum/Agile training course that used Lego’s to build something using Agile/Scrum techniques and minutes long sprints.

    5. Anon Because I Use A New Name Now*

      I’m a trainer/facilitator/leadership development expert.

      You don’t want interaction for interaction’s sake; you should be targeting what you do to your goals.

      Some good reasons to include interactivity:

      1) Adult humans (and probably kids too, but that’s not my field) don’t learn well when they are just being given information. We learn through engaging with ideas. So: to help people learn well, design interactivity that lets them grapple with the information you’re trying to convey. (Also, adults learn best when you build on the knowledge they already have, so you may want to think about how to let folks bring their expertise into the conversation.)

      2) People can’t focus on someone just delivering information for more than a few minutes at a time. (In my work, we never go more than 10 minutes without some form of interactivity, even if it’s just having a brief conversation with the person sitting next to you). So: think about how long you’re planning to have someone lecturing from the front of the room and how you can break that up.

      3) Folks can’t go more than ~90 minutes or so without a break to move their bodies. So: plan for a real break (where people can leave the room/do something else for 10 minutes) every 90 minutes, or at the very least plan a physical activity (like walking around the room to read things posted on the wall; I’m not talking about doing tai chi or whatever).

      I wrote a long comment a few years ago about icebreakers, which may be useful even though you aren’t asking specifically about that: https://www.askamanager.org/2018/04/sharing-emotional-scars-as-an-icebreaker-i-broke-a-desk-and-injured-a-coworker-and-more.html#comment-1927308

      1. dear liza dear liza*

        As someone who conducts a lot of training, I cosign this comment.

        In addition- competitions are a great way to get people moving and engaged BUT they are also terrible ways to impart new material. People are so amped up about the game they just want to move on to the next question or challenge, and they don’t want to listen to you elaborate on an answer or explain anything. Save the games for review of material.

    6. Ilovedata*

      I teach workshops and use Menti. It’s a way to do surveys/quizzes/word clouds without having the participants to get up and move around. They give you a code and people access the activities through their smartphones and the results appear anonymously on the monitor or screen.

    7. Amethystmoon*

      Bingo. I’ve seen it done in Toastmasters for training. Offer a small prize of some sort, maybe.

      1. It's Business Time*

        This is what I was thinking, is there a way to do different bingo cards and instead of numbers, use information from the training, and each time that bit of info is mentioned, if it is on your card, you can cross it off? That way people are listening to what you are talking about to make sure they cross it off their list

    8. Cats on a Bench*

      Am I the only one who hates these kinds of contrived activities? I just want the information and maybe some discussion about it and then let me go.

  26. Managing a Micromanager*

    Are there any go-to ways of getting a manager who is a micro-manager by nature — extremely micro — to back up and look at the bigger picture, or learn to let go?
    I really need my boss to be more strategic and less tactical: set values, priorities and goals, rather than making minute-by-minute calls and decisions on little things.
    I am very unsure it is possible.

    1. Sloan Kittering*

      Darn, I think there’s a good chance you can manage DOWN on a micromanager – like you are their boss or even a peer at the same level – but it’s very difficult to manage UP on that. If you consistently do excellent work without their input, maybe you can request that they leave it to you from now on – or if you can carve out a part of the work that they don’t understand or don’t like …?

      1. Managing a Micromanager*

        Yeah, they are fine at giving away stuff they don’t like to do. The problem is they are very interested in almost everything. I think what I really need is to communicate effectively that we need more leadership on the strategy side, and more autonomy on the details.
        This kind of sounds like I am trying to give away executive coaching for free, which I would gladly do if it helped me out!

        1. Sloan Kittering*

          “Trying to give away executive coaching for free” … to your own boss? There’s something weird about the way you’re viewing this in my opinion. Or am I misunderstanding that you’re talking about your manager? It’s not general the purview of the employee to coach the boss.

          1. Managing a Micromanager*

            Yeah what I mean is — they need some coaching. It’s obvious to many in the organization. So it’s kind of funny as a concept to try and find ways as an employee to guide a manager away from a broadly counterproductive behavior, as a colleague and not-peer. But … it would be great if there were some ways of trying to achieve that.

        2. Tabby Baltimore*

          I wish I could remember the advice given to the Letter Writer from earlier in the year whose supervisor was constantly re-writing her work (among other things). I think AAM suggested having a sit-down with the boss and start out the conversation something along the lines of “My impression was that you’re happy with my work. Am I mistaken? Do you have concerns about my performance or my productivity that I should know about?”

          And then, if your boss looks puzzled, you can mention the last 3 or 4 instances where her “involvement” (read: interference) slowed the whole process down/caused confusion with clients or internal customers/some other specific and measurably less-than-optimal-to-bad result.

          Your boss will probably be very surprised by this, as I doubt s/he is aware of how often this is occurring. Trying to reframe the problem as “If you really have confidence in me to understand your vision/needs/project goals and to get the work done, could we try stretching out the time periods between progress reports until I’m farther along, say one week?” might be more successful at getting you what you want, which I’m assuming is to get her to step back a bit, or at least to wait longer between interference points.

          Alison had another great line, too, which is “When you step in, it makes me second-guess my work quality [and my value here].” You might want to consider the “[and my value]” part an optional add-on, depending on the kind of relationship you have with your supervisor.

          Good luck, and please let us know what you decided to do.

        3. CM*

          It’s frustrating to feel like your boss is trying to do your job instead of their job, because you don’t get to do the cool parts of your job and you don’t get the benefit of them doing their job. I would talk to this person and come at it with those two prongs in mind — maybe in separate conversations. One is “I really love doing X and right now I don’t get to do that because you’re doing it instead. Is there a way I could get to do that more often?” And the other is “I would love to get more direction on ‘ better understand Y.” Where Y is the strategic piece or whatever.

          I wouldn’t explain it like “this is my job and that’s your job” even if you’re correct because it’s likely to come across as adversarial. What you think your job is and what you think their job is is already implied by the other statements.

      2. Kathenus*

        Building on Sloan Kittering’s comments, you could try to take it bit by bit. Pick one relatively small, discrete thing that you’d like to see your boss do differently, and propose a new system to them. For example – “Boss, could we try setting a Friday afternoon meeting each week to catch up on Project X, versus discussing it off and on throughout the week which sometimes slows down my momentum?” If you can get them to agree to a small change, have it succeed, you might be able to build on it piece by piece over time. Good luck.

        1. Managing a Micromanager*

          Thank you! I also have been read the AAM archives on this and it’s a good, common takeaway.

    2. Oops*

      There are many books on Managing up. (Some are from HBR, I found another one with a title ‘ Elephants…’ I returned all the books to Library without reading.. Maybe one has details on this scenario.

    3. Minocho*

      I had a problem with a serious micromanager at former job – it was his first management position, and it was literally to the point that he would stand behind me and tell me what keys to press. I was a senior professional with over 10 years of experience, and he was about 2 years out of college (when they wanted to fill his position, which was new, they skipped over all the senior women, including me, to ask younger male employees if they were interested – a whole other issue at former job). I spoke with a friend who has serious social skills, and she had this suggestion for how to talk about it:

      My Thoughts: “Stop micromanaging me! I’ve been doing this work for years, I know the basics of the job! If you need me to improve something or there’s some metric you’re looking for me to keep that I”m not keeping, let me know, that’s fine. But back off a little and let me breathe!” <– Not likely to get great results.

      Friend's Suggestion: "I would like to know what you need to see in order for you to be able to trust me with day to day tasks. Is there anything I need to change to make you comfortable with my work?"

      This is a much better way to frame things. It isn't aggressive, and it's unlikely to force a defensive response – it may or may not help your manager realize what they're doing, but it might open the conversation in a way that is useful to you!

  27. Bee's Knees*

    I get to sit through interviews all day today. Yay.
    One of our VP’s thinks a vacuum cleaner is an appropriate push present for his wife.
    One of our electricians set himself slightly on fire yesterday. He’s fine.

    4. iglwif*

      What’s a “push present”? I’m curious.

      At the same time, I don’t think that question is really relevant because the list of occasions for which a vacuum cleaner is an appropriate present for your spouse has only one entry on it: When Your Spouse Has Specifically Asked You To Buy Them A Vacuum Cleaner.

      One of the VPs at ExJob once got his partner a Swiffer WetJet for Valentine’s Day; it … was not a hit XD

        1. Grace*

          I have weird feelings about ‘push presents’. I think I mostly just don’t like the name. A little celebratory memento, sure, but it’s like you’re…paying your partner to give birth to your child? Or something?

          My mum picked out a lovely ring after I was born, but that was mostly because my parents saw nine years of fruitless IVF followed by a baby as something to celebrate and commemorate.

          1. AvonLady Barksdale*

            I completely agree. I kind of expect someone to give something nice to their partner who just gave birth. But the idea of “push present” is… erg. I knew some women who expected designer stuff or huge diamonds– expected– and it always sounded icky.

            1. iglwif*

              Yeah, ick.

              Also … I’m all for the non-birth-giving parent appreciating how not-fun pregnancy and birth can be, but like … didn’t you *both* agree to have this baby?

      2. fposte*

        The “push” is childbirth pushing. The “push present” after you birth the baby is a thing in some circles. The concept kind of skeeves me out so the vacuum issue gets lost in the noise for me.

      3. Liz*

        it’s a gift that your husband is SUPPOSED to get you for having YOUR child, aka PUSH it out. I personally don’t get all the hype and expectations surrounding that and other over the top gifts, celebrations etc. relating to having a baby or not. Maybe i’m just old and cranky but whatever happened to just asking someone to the prom, vs. a huge, orchestrated “thing” etc.
        I mean i don’t have any issues with the father buying the mother a special gift when they have their baby, but i just feel like is expected, and if not given, well, there will be heck to pay…blah blah blah.

        1. iglwif*

          The more of these answers I read, the more I’m sorry I asked.

          It’s been a while since I had a baby, but I think my reaction at the time would have been, “Wait, after 5 years of trying and 2 IVF cycles I’m having a baby, and y’all want me to ask for presents, too??”

          1. Windchime*

            Yeah, I guess getting the gift of the actual baby isn’t enough anymore? I probably see it differently because when I had my kids 30 years ago, we were dirt poor. We were just grateful to have the baby and a home to keep it in.

            1. valentine*

              I think it’s more “Even if I change all the diapers, I can never match your contribution. Here’s a tennis bracelet.”

              Too bad vacuum VP isn’t the one who set himself on fire, like he’s about to do to his marriage.

        2. Rainy*

          I think promposals have mainly come in as marriage has increasingly become a thing that only people who can afford to have a wedding do. It’s a new custom evolving to take the place of the old outdated one.

      4. Parenthetically*

        the list of occasions for which a vacuum cleaner is an appropriate present for your spouse has only one entry on it: When Your Spouse Has Specifically Asked You To Buy Them A Vacuum Cleaner.

        Yes! My mother has asked for and received three vacuums as birthday/anniversary gifts in the course of my parents’ almost 45 year marriage.

        1. iglwif*

          Awesome!

          I got a Roomba from spouse and kiddo a few years ago. It’s pretty great! But, like the ice-cream maker I got spouse as an anniversary gift some time back, it’s more of a gift for the whole family, since in fact we all (eventually) vacuum.

        2. Beth*

          I once had a boyfriend give me an iron for Valentine’s Day.

          It was an industrial steam iron, and it was the one thing in the world that I wanted more than anything else, and he loved giving presents. He got crap for it from a couple of his friends who found out, but I still brag about it as one of the Best Presents Evar.

          1. AccountantWendy*

            @Beth – that’s on my list too, right under the vacuum cleaner. Gravity fed FTW.

          2. twig*

            My dad got my mom a mallet for valentines day once (it was shiny and Red!) . BUT she did request it to work on a cabinet making project they were working on.

        3. AccountantWendy*

          I was about to say, depends on the wife. There’s a vacuum cleaner I REALLY want and I’d be thrilled if my husband surprised me with it.

    6. only acting normal*

      Having just googled “push present”, my only question is: is he angling for a divorce?

      1. E*

        Maybe she wants and asked for a new vacuum. My husband got me a toaster oven for Christmas (week before baby was born) but I wanted it and had put it on my wish list. Given the choice between spending our limited income due to pending hospital bills for delivery on shiny jewelry or easier ways to fix quick meals with a little one, I’d pick appliances all day long LOL.

    7. Michelle*

      I think push presents are…dumb. You know when you get pregnant that pushing is part of the process to have the baby, right? You don’t push and they might have to use forceps, that vacuum machine or possibly even C-section. Heck, I was ready to push before the doctor wanted me to because I was DONE with being pregnant and wanted to take a nap. Dad pulled first night parenting duty while I slept. He eventually asked the nurses to take the baby to the nursery so he could sleep.

      1. Seven hobbits are highly effective, people*

        Given that “vacuum machine” is one of the “pushing doesn’t work” options, a vacuum cleaner as a “push present” has an extra, nested level of ick here. (Assuming it’s not something his wife specifically asked for, in which case it’s a perfectly good “I am being supportive and getting you stuff you want to have handy” present, even with weird connotations. I could see this if, for example, their current vacuum is large and unwieldy, and they decided as a couple to buy something easier to wrangle one-handed now that there will be a baby.)

    8. Bee's Knees*

      The VP’s wife has not asked for a vacuum cleaner. I told him that could be his present for himself. He tried to argue that it was a nice vacuum. Not a decent excuse. He evidently got her some jewelry recently that she didn’t like, so his second choice was vacuum. I suggested he get her a massage, or have one of the moms come out, or hire someone to clean. This is the same man who insisted (despite the fact that he could super easily work from home) that he was only going to take two days off once the baby was born. When he realized they might not be out of the hospital by then, he amended it to a week.

      1. iglwif*

        … wow.

        My spouse was only able to take a couple of days off after our kiddo was born (he did get some real leave later, when she was ~3 months), and it SUCKED. Fortunately my mom and my aunt and cousins were around — in a hotel, NOT in our 1-bedroom apartment! — to help out with the laundry and cooking and putting stuff together, but … Do Not Recommend.

        All your suggestions are great! Too bad VP is apparently a bad listener.

      2. Not One of the Bronte Sisters*

        When he returns to work, two weeks of a baby nurse. Many of them will also prepare meals and clean.

      3. Lilith*

        Is the mom being sectioned? Two days in the hospital is long for vag delivery around here. I thought it was an overnight stay everywhere now. I’m in the US.
        The vacuum is ridiculous. What is he smoking? He went from jewelry to a vacuum. Wow.

  28. PegLeg*

    Hi! I am in an office and my coworker the next office over has a horrible habit of whistling allllll day. It drives me bonkers and I feel on edge as soon as she starts in. It is at a pitch that I can hear it over my music. I have asked her several times to stop, first by joking asking if there was a bird in her office or something, then by being direct. She stops when I ask and I know it is a mindless thing, but she does it every. single. day. Any advice on wording I can use to kindly but firmly ask her to STOP? Or do I just daily bother her with a “stop whistling” just like she daily bothers me with the noise?

    1. Peaches*

      That’s very odd that she continues whistling even after you’ve asked her to stop several times. Perhaps she still thinks that you’re joking.

      I don’t have any advice, but you have my sympathies. I have a coworker in the cube next to me who talks on the phone all day at volume 10 (even headphones do not block her out).

    2. Mike C.*

      Keep asking her until she stops. It’s a habit that needs to be broken and it’s going to take repeated requests.

    3. lindsay*

      OMG I had a roommate that did this and he may or may not be dead now. (He’s not, but that’s really a testament to my self-control).
      The ONE thing I found that helped was he liked to chew gum, so when he started mindlessly whistling and I was tired of saying for the 9000th time “You’re doing it again” I’d offer him a piece of bubble gum. Shut him up for a little while at least.

    4. Liz*

      I’d be tempted to get an air horn and blast it every time she whistled. I know, wishful thinking on my part, but stuff like that drives me bonkers.

      my only advice would just keep asking her nicely to stop.

      1. Cartographical*

        This was exactly my thought. Not workable, sadly. I might actually see if you can agree on a “you’re whistling again” signal to cut through the “do I say/do something?” process. Text a >:| face over the messenger app, ding a little bell, just say her name flatly: “Jane.”

        Just bring it up: This disrupts my work and that sucks for my performance and productivity, you’ve said you want to stop and I believe you and really appreciate it, but I feel terrible having to bring it up over and over; if we had a quick way for me to alert you so I’m not being doubly distracted by having to she and not distracting you in turn, it would make things more efficient.

        I had to retrain my spouse around some annoying habits and it went far faster when I alerted him that there was a problem but didn’t name it so he had to think “what am I supposed to setup? Oh, right, that.”

        I don’t know why but it really did clear out some things like pen clicking and gum popping and making this popping sound with his tongue — I have a neurological thing that makes minor stuff like that painful.

        Also, if she does cut down on it, do something nice for her immediately — buy her a nice coffee when you go get something for yourself, thank her for helping you out. This does double duty of positive reinforcement and establishing mutuality — that you’re people who do little favours for each other. It can turn feeling put upon into an inside joke and acceptance of each other’s less annoying quirks.

    5. Batgirl*

      Commiseration! I have a co-worker who does a lot of mindless humming. I want to throw him out a window.

  29. MDW*

    My manager has a bad cold and coughs without covering his mouth. He is also the type for whom personal space is not a thing. Anyone have tips for dealing with this? Only solution I can come up with is taking vitamins and/or jumping out a window.

    1. Anonysand*

      Sanitize everything and avoid avoid avoid. Try calling/emailing him instead of going in-person to ask questions, and make sure to wash your hands a lot!

    3. Emilitron*

      You just say “Could you be more careful when you cough, please? We don’t want the whole office sick!” and say that whether he’s coughing at you or at a coworker. Not making a big deal of it (no “oh, I’m such a germaphobe haha! just humor me”) but not hinting or being indirect, either.

      1. valentine*

        Yes, the beautiful third option.

        Silently hand him a mask? Slowly dab hand sanitizer on your clothing?

    5. Cartographical*

      Assuming just speaking up doesn’t help, I’d wear a mask. Get a cute Vog style one and say you’re trying to avoid getting ill or just lie and say you think you’re coming down with something.

      Also you might see about putting up those little posters about disease vectors in the bathrooms — there’s ones on “coughing into your elbow” and proper hand washing. If you have to ask permission, just say it’s a problem in the office and this is the most discreet way to remind people to be conscientious.

      And Lysol wipes. So many.

  30. Anon portfolio-haver*

    A few questions about portfolios!

    I’m currently interviewing for a job and have been asked to provide a portfolio for review. I work in marketing and a fair bit of my job involves graphic design, which I already have a portfolio for. The job listing mentions portfolios including design, writing, and photography. So my questions are:
    – I haven’t ever done photography in a professional setting before. Typically if I’m using photos in my current job they are stock photos or taken by a professional photographer. I take photos for fun (think Instagram) on my travels, but don’t have any work photos to share. Should I include a few of my most professional-seeming photos to include in a portfolio or just skip that since it isn’t professional experience?
    – Most of my writing is short blurbs that are edited by others at my organization. Also, my current job invlves some technical aspects where wording can not be changed for accuracy, so I just incorporate that language instead of writing new copy. Having learned a bit about this job from my initial interviews, I think they would be looking for longer-form writing, which I definitely feel comfortable doing, I just don’t have many examples from my recent professional life. Would it be outnof touch to include a few of these short blurbs as well as the most recent longer piece I have (from about five years ago) I think it will be obvious when it is from based on the topic, but it is a high quality piece and the closest to what they are looking for (and 100% by me with minimal edits from others).

    1. AccountantWendy*

      I don’t think writing samples suffer from old age, if you think the sample from 5 years ago accurately reflects your skill, so I say go for it! I don’t have any advice re: the photography question, but I would err on the side of not including simply because it’s not something you are representing as a professional skill or experience. Presumably the portfolio is meant to demonstrate existing professional skills, and so your vacation snap shots (or whatever) don’t do that (at least mine don’t!)

    2. San Juan Worm*

      I frequently hire folks for whom professional photography experience is preferred, but not required. If your personal photos demonstrate expertise with lighting and composition, include them — especially if the subject matter is relevant to the position.

      I agree with AccountantWendy that long-format writing samples from five years ago are fine. So are the samples that have been edited by others (as long as they haven’t been so heavily edited that they no longer reflect your work or skills).

  31. Cnovia*

    I work for a company where I run a two man warehouse alone. Originally when I was hired their was someone else working with me. I did fire him. And since October I have been working and running the warehouse alone. I I barely make mistakes and really take pride in my work. I want to ask for a raise but never have before and am really nervous . My boss loves and works in California I am in Massachusetts. What is the best approach to this? I have almost been here a year

    1. Aspiring Chicken Lady*

      “Hey boss, just a status check. I haven’t had my partner since October, and we haven’t back-filled. It seems like it’s all running smoothly with just me for the time being. In the last 6 months I’ve really honed my skills in X, Y, Z and have accomplished A, B, C. I’m hoping to tackle these projects/learning goals/etc. in the next year or so.

      Could we schedule a time to talk about what your plans are for my role in the next year, and maybe going forward?”

    2. BRR*

      I would recommend looks at Alison’s posts on asking for a raiser and listening to the episode of her podcast on the subject. Basically lay at your accomplishments, say something like “I would like to discuss my salary to reflect my higher level of contributions,” then stop talking. The stop talking part is really important. It’s easy for a lot of people to keep babbling on when they’re nervous. You’re in a particularly strong position if you will continue to be running the warehouse alone (but if you’re going to hire a second person don’t let that stop you). Be prepared to give a number and be prepared with a response if they say no. When you’re disappointed it can be hard to think of a response.

    3. Occasional Baker*

      This is late, but I think you have to have a discussion, because this isn’t sustainable. One person cannot run a warehouse 52 weeks a year. There needs to be a plan for backfilling ASAP. But, you can also ask about the rate increase, as well as that now you’ll be training a new employee.

      1. Aphrodite*

        Exactly. I loathe kids and infants. I won’t go into all the reasons because I don’t want to offend people, but I am outraged at the idea that this might become permanent. Time to write some letters, I think.

      2. Rainy*

        Oh god no why I don’t want to adopt your child. If I had wanted children I would have had one of my own…and then kept it away from the office.

    2. Dragoning*

      Ugh, can’t they give them parental leave instead? It seems like a much better choice for everyone all around and doesn’t require anyone to work with a crying infant.

          1. Grace*

            A year of parental leave, even, in most places.
            I believe here in the UK it’s shared parental leave – 50 weeks of leave, 37 weeks of which are paid, between the two parents at any time within the first year of the birth or the placing of the child with the family.

          2. Lucette Kensack*

            Sure, but it would be a massive change for the US economy. The CA bill is an incremental step.

            1. Rainy*

              It’s really, really not.

              There is a huge difference between “we’ll pay you so you can stay home during this crucial stage in your child’s life, which will benefit everyone eventually” and “let’s subject your coworkers to your infant day in and day out during the neediest, crying-est part of their life”. With a side of “there are definitely people in your office who will bring their kid in and try to dump it off on whoever isn’t fast enough to escape”.

              1. Clisby*

                I agree with your first point, but at least in my experience, infancy is nothing like the “neediest, crying-est part of their life.” An infant is way easier to take care of than a toddler.

        3. Dragoning*

          I have a coworker in Germany who has been on maternity leave for nearly a year now and will not be coming back for a total of two.

          Somehow, we are managing fine in the interim.

          Six months is really not a long time. It’s what my company offers despite it not being required by law.

        4. BRR*

          I imagine the loss of productivity would be very similar when you factor in the coworker’s productivity as well. And by productivity I mean the work that wouldn’t be completed while the new parent is out.

    3. Miss Vaaangie*

      “If the infant doesn’t fit in, the supervisor can say, ‘it’s not working, we’re not doing it anymore since it’s a pilot program.’

      Yeah I don’t see that going over well

    6. CatCat*

      Just giving (paid) parental leave is a much higher level political fight than this is. Paid leave and benefits for state workers involves a highly political process.

      I don’t think legislation is even really necessary here. Don’t see why departments couldn’t do this already. But the Legislative blessing on piloting it may have some strong normative power.

      I’m a little surprised by strong negative reactions to it. Like… don’t even give something a try? Because that’s all this is.

      1. Kesnit*

        I dislike children. A lot. Children that young cry, and don’t understand being told to calm down. I cannot imagine having to spend my work day near something that could explode in noise at any moment.

      2. Nora Lenderbee*

        Agreed that getting better leave policies would be a major fight in the US (one that is desperately needed).
        Disagree that a viable solution is burdening co-workers with distractions (even if they are enjoyable) and child care. If this were workable, lots of people would already have their babies with them at work.

      3. Autumnheart*

        It’s pretty common for workplaces to insist that employees take a PTO day instead of working from home when they have small children who need care, specifically because the needs of the kids would be a continual distraction for the employee. If it’s a distraction for one employee, how much would productivity tank if there’s a child in the office distracting all employees?

        We need better parental leave policies, not more ways to blend the workplace and the home together until you’re basically working all the time while trying to take care of your kids, dogs, etc.

    7. iglwif*

      I mean, if you’re going to bring a baby to work with you, under 6 months is definitely the time to do it–they’re not mobile yet, they sleep a LOT, and they’re still getting all their nutrition from nursing, which, trust me, is WAAAAAY less messy than feeding a baby gets later on.

      I personally would still go for paid parental leave, (a) in my parent hat, because juggling work and a newborn must be INCREDIBLY hard, (b) in my human being hat, because jeez, just give new parents a rest already, we all know they need it, and (c) in my manager hat, because whether the baby is at home or at work, the primary caregiver of a baby under 6 months is almost certainly not able to give work their best.

      But since the US as a country is apparently violently allergic to the kind of paid parental leave people get elsewhere, this certainly seems worth trying…

      1. valentine*

        they sleep a LOT, and they’re still getting all their nutrition from nursing
        These are massive assumptions.

        1. ket*

          On a population average level compared to humans age 2 or greater this is correct. Of course deviations from the average exist.

        2. iglwif*

          I mean, my kiddo slept way less as a newborn than the books suggested she would, but still a LOT more at that stage than at any subsequent stage of her life. I think the number of people who sleep *less* at age 0-6 months than at, say, age 6 months through 5 years is probably vanishingly small.

          I definitely should have said “nursing or formula”, and I apologize for not doing that. The rest of that statement is still correct (my observations of formula-fed babies suggest that formula feeding makes more mess than nursing, but still WAAAAAY less mess than the first year and a half of solid foods, and no high chair or non-bottle feeding utensils required).

    8. KX*

      I dunno. I kinda dig it. Maybe I am Of A Certain Age now, but there are just not that many babies in the world on a given day, and people group together around babies in pleasant ways. It seems like a new radical idea but I think society used to be multigenerational everywhere. What would our ancestors think of us leaving babies out of sight?

      It’s a paradigm shift it is. And an interesting experiment, and a lot of things, and I am not going to engage (personally) in a debate about whether babies belong in the modern workplace and adults-only spaces or any of that. It is currently controversial, I agree. I am excited to see what happens if implemented.

      1. Dragoning*

        I don’t mind babies in public spaces! In restaurants, and parks, and stores, and even libraries if they’re quiet.

        But, well, work is for work and babies actively hinder that being accomplished.

      2. iglwif*

        There are certainly lots of contexts in which work+small!baby is a pretty normal scenario. It’s just that most of them are not office jobs. I mean, it’s not like stay-at-home parents are doing literally nothing but taking care of the baby–they’re almost certainly doing laundry, washing dishes, preparing food, tidying, etc. And you can, if you don’t have a bad back or anything like that, do all of those things while wearing a baby! But not everybody particularly wants to do that.

      3. CatCat*

        Yeah, I’m really interested to see this too. I don’t have a baby and am not particularly excited by most babies.

        But… it wouldn’t bother me if a coworker had their non-mobile infant here if they were reasonable about it.

        I think there would need to be rules and structure in place (e.g., take your baby to [X place/hallway/conference room/office] if they start crying so it’s quiet), but the general concept does not bother me and could be a real benefit to a lot of state workers. If the legislation passes, I’ll be interested to see the results of the pilot.

    9. Not So NewReader*

      So from what I have seen this works into put the kid in a carrier and leave the kid in the carrier all day. It can’t be good for the kid. There’s more to it, right?

      1. iglwif*

        My kid basically lived in a Baby Trekker or ring sling for most of the first 6 months of her life, and a non-trivial proportion of the next 6 months as well. That is, she wasn’t in it at night and of course she came out of it for diaper changes etc., and it took me a long time to get good at nursing while babywearing, but … yeah, basically all day in a carrier. She turned out OK.

      2. Ann O.*

        You’d presumably interact with your baby at breaks, but babies that age aren’t mobile and sleep a ton. I wore mine in a sling most of the time. There’s not really that much active interaction that you do with sub-6 month old infants. If there’s a space to give the baby some tummy time at lunch break (often done on a small, portable mat), I don’t think it would be significantly different than at home.

    10. Not One of the Bronte Sisters*

      I can’t see that being anything but distracting. How about onsite daycare centers?

    11. Gumby*

      I’m not a state employee but at my workplace there are chemicals and lasers and I cannot think of a *worse* place to have an infant. (Okay, that was hyperbole. There are worse places. Still.) Not to mention that the people playing with the chemicals and lasers probably concentrate better without random crying.

    12. Completely new name this time*

      Love babies. But just got off a flight where not 1, but 2 children cried /fussed /wailed the whole time.
      No!! And I live in CA. I suggest the start with the pilot in the supportive legislators offices first (let them specifically hire for this if needed).
      Then evaluate .
      (And I have worked with children and was a nanny….but not in my office, please….I have coworkers already who are too close to infanthood).

      1. Lilith*

        What about everyone having to be up on immunizations? I’m actually for that but wonder how that huge boulder would impact babies being in workplaces.

  33. Lalaroo*

    I and two coworkers applied for a promotion. One of the coworkers was offered the position and declined. They cancelled the posting and re-posted to get new applicants, but they haven’t told me or the other coworker anything. We just received an automated email telling us the posting was cancelled. They asked the coworker who got the offer not to tell anyone about it, so they are working under the assumption that we don’t know they offered the position to anyone.

    I think it’s really cowardly and disrespectful to me and my other coworker not to tell us why we weren’t offered the position, or that it’s not worth us applying again. We put effort into our applications and interviews, and we heard nothing. Our department’s policy is to always interview all internal candidates, so if we were to apply to the new posting as well, they would interview us even though we have no chance of getting the offer. The department policy is also to always have a face-to-face meeting with all rejected internal candidates to discuss why they weren’t selected and what they can do to grow, but since they cancelled this posting instead of hiring someone they apparently get to avoid that.

    It’s kind of a kick in the teeth to know that your department would rather hire no one than promote you. And let me be clear – this promotion was a tiny, tiny step up from an entry level position, and requires only a bachelor’s degree and one year, and I have six years and a master’s, so it’s not like I was a stretch candidate.

    Anyway, just venting because I am tired of feeling like being treated as not worth any consideration.

    2. WellRed*

      Ask about it. Just because the posting was cancelled (or not, I am confused), doesn’t mean they don’t need to have a face to face, in accordance with policy.

      1. Lalaroo*

        About the cancelling: we’re in state government, so legally we’re required to hire someone who is on the list of applicants at the time the posting closes. If we don’t, we have to cancel the posting and post again, and the list of applicants is completely new. So basically, by cancelling the posting they said that there were no applicants that were worth hiring, and they wanted to try for some new ones.

        I did ask about it. I contacted the hiring manager on Monday, and she said she was very busy but would reach out to me on Tuesday. Crickets.

        The director of our department was the one who told them that they don’t have to have the face-to-face since they cancelled, so I know policy isn’t on my side.

        1. CatCat*

          This is BS, imo. As you know :-(

          Have you talked to your boss about it?

          Are there opportunities in other departments for the level you’re trying to get to? My experience in government is that often the only way up is out to a different department. I have also seen when an offer comes from another department, suddenly the current department is willing to offer it. A terrible practice, but it happens.

        2. Combinatorialist*

          Could you apply again and then when they hire someone (presumably someone else) they will have to have the face-to-face? I mean, it sucks, but if they are going to be overly rigid and rules-lawyering with the policy, well, two people can play that

    3. Anonymous Educator*

      Any chance they didn’t tell you, because they haven’t yet fully ruled you out as candidates?

      1. Lalaroo*

        No, unfortunately. We would have to re-apply in order to be considered (see my comment above to WellRed), and since cancelling a posting is a big deal, it’s not something they’d do if they weren’t sure about not hiring someone from the current pool.

        1. Aggretsuko*

          I’m sorry to hear this. It super sucks and there’s no way you wouldn’t end up feeling bad at this.

    4. Not So NewReader*

      I would be tempted to go in and ask what I could do to make my application stronger the next time.
      The underlying message here would be, “I see what you are doing and I am raising you one.”

      There’s two types of defeat. There’s the defeat that is caused by others. And there is the defeat that we feel when we think we can not stand up for ourselves. Of the two, the latter, that loss of our own power, is perhaps the worst.
      I’d like to encourage you to take back your power even if it is only in a minor way.

      Taking back our power can have odd costumes. Where it sounds like you are humbling yourself to ask what you can do better, in reality what you are doing is making someone squirm. They have to come up with something to tell you. Listen very carefully to what they say and to what they DON’T say. What they don’t say is just as important. You might find yourself in a very telling conversation. Make sure you keep your posture straight, your head up and try to carry an air of expectation that they will behave in a professional manner. This can be very intimidating to jellyfish. And it sounds like you have jellyfish in your place.

      And you can say something that leads them to believe you will be asking again. “I would like to apply again in the future, so I want to be ready for that.” This gives them the heads up that they could get caught in another awkward conversation with you and it’s best just to tell you the truth now.

  34. Amber Rose*

    I’ve already used up 4 of my 6 sick days for the year and it’s stressing me out so much I almost came to work yesterday. It’s good I didn’t because I had a stomach bug and was in the bathroom for most of the day, but still.

    I wish I worked somewhere that wasn’t so awful about sick time.

    1. Not So NewReader*

      I think that the stress actually causes people to be sicker and more often. I know it can make for some really nasty work places.

  35. blatantlysilly*

    Looking for some advice on deciding which job to pursue!! I went in for an interview at a company that went fine, but I didn’t hear back about a second interview in over a month. So I applied to another job at this company (it’s a very large company, the jobs are in completely different divisions). However, the hr rep for the second job told me during my phone interview I can only be under consideration for one. She let me know that I should know next steps for the first job next week but I don’t know if that means a second interview or if I’m just officially waiting to be told I didn’t make it, since it’s been a month since my first interview.

    What would you guys look at to make the decision in which to pursue?

    1. Akcipitrokulo*

      Are you able to put off the decision until you hear the next steps next week?

      And which one did you like better?

      1. blatantlysilly*

        The first one I really liked the manager but I haven’t gone to an actual interview for the second, just the prelim phone interview. Based off that, I’d probably be happy with either but I get the sense that they’d like me choose, not ask for more time to choose.

        1. Combinatorialist*

          Can you re-apply to the second one if the first one ends up rejecting you before they have filled it?

  36. What’s with Today, today?*

    My co-worker is looking to move on. He handles a large number of responsibilities and it takes a while to find a replacement for that position. Everyone in our office knows he’s very seriously looking except our manager who is working remotely for 6 months (long story). I’m in lower levels of management, but am not my co-worker’s supervisor, he reports to the same person I do, but co-worker isn’t in management. I’m very senior to my co-worker and serve as a reference for him.

    Meanwhile, our other location is closing and the person that does my co-workers job over there is being let go because of it. He literally does the EXACT same job as my job searching co-worker (and does it better, we’d love to have him here). Do I tell my boss about co-worker searching so he won’t let the other guy go? I can say with confidence he wouldn’t let the other guy go if he new. I can’t say with confidence that it wouldn’t hasten co-workers transitioning out, though I don’t think he would be fired on the spot for looking. I feel crummy about this whole thing.

    1. Four lights*

      Personally, I wouldn’t. Like you said, it could push him out eventually. Even if he’s seriously looking, it’s impossible to know how long it would take to find something, if at all. Also, it’s possible for something to come up that would cause him to stop looking.

      1. What's with Today, today?*

        I know that is true, but I really hate the idea of the other guy being let go as well, and that is a definite unless someone speaks up. My co-worker IS leaving, it’s just a matter of when. He’s in his first job out of college and there is no room for advancement here in the field he wants to be in. In addition, his fiance lives in another state, he’s wanting to go there. I’m weighing the cons and cons of a no-win situation.

        1. Akcipitrokulo*

          Ask him? It sounds like everyone knows anyway, and only reason manager doesn’t is because he’s remote… so something like “hey, you know Robin’s being let go? How would you feel about letting manager know you’re looking…?”

          1. valentine*

            I don’t see why you would involve yourself. You’re higher, but parallel, not a direct chain of command.

    2. Not All*

      Have you tried asking the coworker who is leaving if he’d be willing to give a heads-up to the manager under the circumstances?

    3. Anono-me*

      If you are in management, don’t you have a responsibility to let the company know about this?
      Maybe I’m misunderstanding your position.* But if you were on a management team with me, and I found out that you knew about a critical employee leaving and let us separate the perfect replacement employee; I would feel that you did not understand your management duties or did not take them seriously. I understand why initially you might have offered to serve as a reference without notifying people. But now the situation has changed and I think your responsibilities as management mean you have to speak up. I would give the employee who is job searching a heads-up and an explanation first however. Also think of that poor guy’s is about to lose his job and doesn’t need to go through all that.
      * If you are not management, it is more gray to me.

      1. What’s with Today, today?*

        Low-level management, and your comment about my responsibility is exactly why I’m asking the question here today. I just started managing one small area in February, and again, I don’t manage him at all. So I was a little unsure. We just found out the location is closing this week, so I haven’t been setting on this. Thanks. I felt like speaking up would be the better thing to do.

        1. boredatwork*

          That’s my gut feeling, the fact that co-worker is being very open about seriously looking, and it would be a loss to your company to lose “other guy”, I’d speak up.

          There’s also the chance that “other guy” gets let go, co-worker puts in notice a week later and your boss is very annoyed at you for not retaining “other guy”.

    4. Jules the 3rd*

      Have you asked your coworker who’s hunting if it would be ok? I’d go with his decision.

  37. LGC*

    So, I’m writing a bunch of performance reviews – 11, in fact. (4 done, 7 to go by Tuesday.) I have a decent understanding of how to write them, but…I find myself either going negative or feeling like I’m too positive. How do I balance this?

    One thing I’ve been doing is just writing out things and then revisiting them a day later, which has helped. But I’d like to be able to get it more right the first time.

    1. Ask a Manager* Post author

      With each one, when you’re done writing, sit back and think about how you see that person’s work overall. Then read it with that in mind — you want to make sure that the overall feel of the review matches your overall assessment of that person’s work. If they’re overall great, the review should feel that way. If you have serious concerns, that should be conveyed. Etc. I know that sounds really simplistic, but I used to see managers write generally positive reviews for employees I knew they had serious concerns about, and vice versa, and I’d have to point this out all the time. Especially when you’re writing a lot of them all at once, it’s really important to keep making yourself step back and do that broader reflection. (You can also do that before you start writing, but you definitely should do it at the end too.)

      1. LGC*

        …thanks SO much! I was not expecting a quick response, and from you no less!

        Thankfully, there is a lot of time before they’re presented, and my own manager reviews them before I present them. Even still, I want to make sure that I’m being as fair as possible.

        (I will say that in my opinion, the only thing worse than getting a performance review is writing one.)

    2. Kathenus*

      I sometimes write out a list of pros/cons of the person’s performance before starting to use the form, and then use the list to help me expand on these areas to get them included. By trying to list the positive and negative in advance it sometimes helps me start with a more overall balanced view, or forgetting to include something because the performance plan form may not have a specific space for a particular aspect of the person’s performance that I might have left out otherwise.

      1. LGC*

        Thanks for the suggestion! I’ve noticed one hangup I have is that I tend to note an employee’s issues in the past year, but unless they vastly improve I forget to note that.

    3. Policy Wonk*

      I do an outline of what points I want to make before I start writing, then write the narrative filling it out. That way I don’t get caught up in a particular example and lose sight of where I am going.

      1. LGC*

        That’s kind of been my approach – since I only have room for a couple of sentences at best, I’m forced into doing a vague outline first.

  38. Justme, The OG*

    So I found a job I want to apply for. It’s a long-shot faculty position in academia. It’s a non-tenure position with only a Masters required. And I need a CV for it. Help? How to I renovate my resume to a CV?

    And also, please send mojo my way asking my supervisor to be a reference. She’s amazing and wonderful and would give me a great reference but I’m also chicken to ask. She knows she’s likely to lose me now that I have a Masters.

    1. Hope*

      If she’s as good a supervisor as you’re saying, she’ll be sorry that she might lose you but happy to help you. I’ve been in the same boat, and I’ve always been much happier to give a great reference than to not get the chance.

      Ask for the reference.

    2. Cheesesteak in Paradise*

      A CV is basically a resume with an emphasis on publications. So have sections on published papers (bold your name), presentations (posters or oral), book chapters. Also another section on teaching/mentor ship – list classes you taught or students you were an official mentor/advisor for.

      Other than that it’s the same.

        1. curly sue*

          Depending on field, there are probably other things you can add in — I’m in the performing arts and we can include stage and film performances, director positions, design jobs, gallery showings, exhibit organizing, and so on. Have you run any teaching, mentoring or development workshops, edited a student journal, organized and/or presented at a grad student conference? Filed any patents? Those all count as well.

    3. fposte*

      What’s the field? What degree would it be teaching? Publications will matter more in some fields than other, especially for an adjunct job.

      A CV is pretty much everything you’ve done professionally. Did you give any talks? Put them on there. Join any committees? On they go. Mentor any students? Include it. Etc.

      1. Justme, The OG*

        Adult education-ish, teaching the undergrad version of the Masters I will have just received. Not tenure track and Doctorate not required (and honestly low pay) so I am hoping that they won’t attract a lot of people with a lot of publications. The department itself does not have the same publish or perish mentality that a lot do.

        1. fposte*

          If you’ve been involved on the practitioner side, that’s the kind of position where that will count for a lot, and I wouldn’t worry too much about publications.

    4. whistle*

      A CV is more likely to list everything important you have done – there are not page limitations on a CV. So, depending on how long your career is, you may add some additional jobs that aren’t on your resume. You already said you don’t have any publications, but what about conference presentations or other types of presentations? Have you given any guest lectures or done curriculum development? What types of software do you know/use? You can have a sections for each of these things.

      If you don’t have much to add to your resume, I wouldn’t worry about it too much – just call your resume a CV for this job!

    5. LadyofLasers*

      Is this an adjunct job? If it is, consider very carefully if you want it. They are notoriously overworked, underpaid, and insecure positions.

  39. Justin*

    I’m not technically looking, but I’m open to new opportunities.

    I looked around a bit last summer, and I’m in a bit of a bind: within my subfield (adult ed), the only way (it seems) to make more than I do now is to go to very, very not diverse agencies/orgs.

    In other words, be The Black Guy, as I have been most of my school/work experiences.

    Before I babble forever (I’ll add more in a comment), do you all have ways of checking how supportive possible places will be of your identity? I’m not talking legality, but basically, trying to ward off an onslaught of entirely legal and unprovable microaggressions before getting too close to a position. How do you, fellow members of marginalized groups, look out for these things?

    (My current job is fine in this manner, but I would like a better opportunity and more room for promotion, which is not due to poor performance, just a very, very flat structure on a small team).

    1. Justin*

      For more context, recently I’ve gotten far more aware of how damaging being The Black Guy in White Spaces has been to me over the decades, because of all the identity-swallowing things I’ve had to do.

      Last summer I was idly searching and I decided to foreground this issue in my search, asking the three white women who phone-interviewed me (which is a lot of phone interviews for one job) about race and they sure did get very uncomfortable. (I knew the person who referred me so they knew about my race in the first place.)

      I can’t really get a job if I make people uncomfortable, but if (white) people are very, very comfortable… the microaggressions tend to be rampant. I would like to go and find a mythical high paying job that’s also genuinely diverse in the leadership but…. I would also like to have ten million dollars in the bank. Wishes and hopes, right?

      Okay, that’s enough.

      1. Nonnon*

        I can’t speak for other organizations, people, or groups, and I don’t know if this helps or provides any context, but our HR interview guidelines specifically state that we are NOT allowed to discuss anything involving race or religion (along with many others, but those are the main two) with an interviewee, and doesn’t provide any guidance on how to properly handle those questions if they come from the other side of the table. It’s just considered an “off-limits” topic so we don’t open the company up to any sort of liability. I could definitely see how that might make an interviewer extremely uncomfortable, even if the organization is diverse.

        1. Justin*

          Well, yeah, I am sure that is the guideline for a lot of places. But in a way, it’s sort of the drive towards “colorblindness,” which can prevent some overt discrimination but then allows for the subtle things I’d like to tease out.

          So ultimately it’s a risk at every employer, and it’s a risk that hurts us a lot of the time. Not blaming you of course.

      2. Em from CT*

        Oh man. I wish I had lots of detailed advice but the only things I can think of right now is a) doing a little research on LinkedIn to see who’s employed at the company and b) looking at the company’s website to see whether the images they use to represent themselves are at all diverse. These are obviously only proxies for your question, but sometimes they help… I remember looking at a company where the staff on the website was all white men, with only one woman (and she was married to the CEO). So that was a red flag.

        I’ll keep thinking.

        1. Justin*

          In a way, this is sort of the next step. I only bother to ask this when I see a bunch of smiling white faces in the staff list.

          I saw a job recommended to me on indeed where I had to go down to person number 30 before I saw a (visible) minority.

          And then, of course, my previous job had a bunch of employees of color… but all of them were below the levers of actual power and decision-making, so we showed up in the ads but never had any sway. And so the pics can be a mask.

          I’m not really disagreeing, though. Just lamenting.

          1. Em from CT*

            Yeah, I hear you. Totally lamentation-worthy.

            Wow, what you’re saying about the relative power of employees of color is totally clarifying some discomfort I felt but didn’t have words for. I’ve kind of been feeling “wait, we’re diverse in my office, I can’t really complain!” but now that I think about it, it’s the lower level ranks that are really diverse… the execs are all white. Thanks for helping me frame it this way.

      3. Washi*

        This is so hard. I’ve tried to ask stuff like this as a white person and even for me, there are a lot of reactions as if I’ve just accused everyone of being racist. I realize this is much higher stakes for you, but I’m curious what kind of answers you’ll get, because I also want to work for culturally competent organizations!

      4. Yet another Kat*

        I’m really sorry you’ve had to deal with this so much!
        The only thing I could maybe suggest is branching into adjacent fields? I’ve encountered (relatively) more diversity in EdTech compared to more traditional adult ed, although it’s still tech, sooooo

      5. Ron McDon*

        I work in education and used to have a co-worker who was very ‘flamboyantly gay’ (his description!).

        He told me that when he went for an interview at a very conservative, posh, private school, he made sure to wear his ‘gay pride’ badge, and was his usual flamboyant self. He told me ‘I want them to know who I am and want to hire me because of who I am. I don’t want to pretend to be someone I’m not and be miserable every day’.

        He was very surprised at how open minded and supportive the staff were, and accepted the job. The last I heard, he was loving it!

        It’s important to be true to yourself when job searching, in order to find the best fit; it’s sad that in this day and age this is not a given for everyone, regardless of race or gender. I don’t have any advice for you, I’m afraid, but wish you well in your hunt for the perfect fit.

    2. Blue Anne*

      I wish I had a good answer. My partner (black trans man) works at a theater and has previously worked in nonprofits, which seems to help a little even though he’s the only black man on staff. Still, when I’m at his events I watch him put on the Super Friendly Professional POC persona when he’s talking with white colleagues.

      Probably not helpful to your or him, but I’ve taken to showing to interviews looking as gay as possible and seeing how they react. Ponytail, no makeup or jewelry, basically male professional clothing, messenger bag instead of purse, etc. It’s interesting, even though I’m not sure it really helps in the way I want it to. I know people clock it, but The Queer White Woman is a nice non-threatening diversity add to finance teams, that doesn’t mean the people are actually any more accepting. As you mention, the microaggressions tend to actually get worse if people are very comfortable and feel like they can say whatever because you’re such a great buddy. I get the “one of the guys” crap.

      1. Justin*

        And I get the “well, you’re a safe black guy, so here’s what I really think about black people but I’m going to say urban or poor but you know what I mean” stuff.

        So yeah, I get what you’re saying.

        Ironically, I do work in nonprofits/education already, so…. I think some such agencies think they’re helping the marginalized and therefore they don’t have to do anymore. I’m working on this idea – that helping the community means people think they can’t be discriminatory – in my doctoral program because I think it’s important and needs to be zeroed in on, especially in education/nonprofits.

        1. Blue Anne*

          >And I get the “well, you’re a safe black guy, so here’s what I really think about black people but I’m going to say urban or poor but you know what I mean” stuff.

          Ugh. Yeah. I bet.

          I think you’re exactly right, they feel like they’re already doing their bit. And yes, especially in nonprofits! It’s like people think they can’t possibly be racist/sexist/homophobic/whatever if they’re doing good work. Argh. I mean, I’ve had accounting partners basically say as much to me “look at how diverse this office is, I’m sure the problem will solve itself now”. But that was in high corporate finance where at least he was expected to be an ass. Talking to my partner’s colleagues seems like they’re totally out of touch and think they’re amazing on all issues, because they’re getting paid to be white saviors.

          Anyway. Great topic. Really glad you’ll be discussing it at that level.

        2. Princess prissypants*

          Justin,

          I hear you. I’m a white woman who’s worked at or near the end of “leaky pipelines” for many years. That is, we’re low on minority X, we want more, but so many have selected themselves out before they even get to us because the system is cruel. Academia and grad school sucks for everyone, and even more if you’re a woman or a minority.

          I think the broad question you want to ask is something like, “How does your organization/company value diversity?” The good ones will not shy away from this question and they will have good answers to this already – they’re doing things to increase access, seal up the pipelines, investing in the community, or whatever. The bad ones will have crappy answers – and that’s how you know you don’t want to work there.

        3. Lily Rowan*

          Absolutely — I’ve worked for many places whose work primarily benefited poor black and brown people but whose staff was 90% white, and some of them definitely feel like they are “doing enough.” It’s gross! Good luck to you.

          1. Justin*

            To some extent, I get it, because a lot of such places don’t pay well, and the employees usually have many degrees, so to them (and I was once one such person, though I’m not white), they were making a sacrifice for the mission. Thus, they’d earned the right to rest on their laurels.

            But sadly, it is us as service providers that really do have to do the extra (internal and intentional) work, even if it’s not fair.

        4. MaureenC*

          “I’m working on this idea – that helping the community means people think they can’t be discriminatory – in my doctoral program”

          If you can, talk about this during the interview, even if it’s just “and this is the research I’m doing now”. The reaction you get might help you filter out some (not all) bad places.

          1. Justin*

            Yes, I haven’t actively searched since I started my doctoral program, and I used it in a cover letter recently, so I think the fact that it’s actual work of mine will make it easier for me to bring up.

        1. Blue Anne*

          Ha! Yeah, I was like… well for me this is good… for Justin and my partner, possibly dangerous.

        2. zora*

          Not practical, but I’m enjoying the mental image of you showing up to an interview fully 1960s Black Panthers, and I wish that was an option! I’m sorry about your struggle, I wish I had more thoughts of how to actually help.

        3. G. Lefoux*

          I actually think you can do this, potentially, with your resume, depending on what you have to work with. Is there anything you’re currently glossing over or dialing down that you could center or dial up?

          So, in my personal situation, I have a very obviously Latinx name. I use that full name on my resume, because it’s very important for me to have people self-select out if they have a problem with it, whether consciously or through unconscious bias. (Conversely, I have friends who needed a job, any job, so they stopping using their father’s more Latinx-sounding last name and used their mom’s more white-sounding last name, or abbreviated a traditional African-American first name to an initial. No judgment on folks who need to do that, but it sounds like you’re at a point in your career where you’re able to pick and choose more.) Similarly, I have a lot of work and volunteer experience with obviously queer organizations, and I make sure those are on my resume as well. It’s not perfect for screening for folks who just want that diversity visual without that diversity reality, though it helps a little if you have any accomplishments to list that can help communicate that ‘I am not interested in listening to you talk about how both sides have a point when one side are bigots’ vibe, for example, slightly controversial things like “drove the initiative to bring Drag Queen Story Time to the library” or “coordinated BLM booth at the festival” (not actual examples of things I have done, but similar flavors).

    3. matcha123*

      I don’t think there are very many places like that in the US that also fit the area you are in. The best you could get are friendly people who will definitely make awkward statements.
      I also don’t think you would be able to find anything from a phone interview. Best bet would be to ask black, male peers in the same field if they are working at, have worked at, or know of any good places. I don’t want to sound discouraging. But I know that what might be a dream workplace for one person would be hell for another. And there are many people, even other minorities, who don’t get that some of their statements or actions are one part of a neverending flood of comments and judgement.

      1. Justin*

        You’re right. Unfortunately, I am one of the more acccomplished people I know in my subfield (not adult ed overall but the subjects I’ve worked in), so people come to ME for it. Ha.

        That’s good advice though. I should ask the people who have been in my position, if I can find them, when I’m at each place. I should have done this before I went to college, too, and it burned me.

    4. InfoSec SemiPro*

      Networking. Whisper networks have problems, but getting access to them is good.

      Do some LinkedIn stalking and see if you can find past/present employees of color for a prospective employer and see if they will give you some stories. If the recruiter/hiring manager/contact seems to be a reasonable human, bring up your concerns and ask for references of current staff you can talk to (this works well with networking and getting someone who works at the company to find people for you to talk to outside of the hiring process. If no one is willing to share stories, that’s a sign. If there isn’t anyone? Also a Sign.)

      I wish you luck. I wish the world didn’t need this kind of navigation to protect people from harm.

    5. LabTechNoMore*

      I don’t have much tried-and-true advice, but will be watching this thread closely. (Arab guy here, so lots of applicable advice!)

      The only thing I can think of is keep an eye out for the demographics of your workplace. I’d expect a difference between a class-balanced(-ish) place with some PoC and some women, versus an entirely white bro/Ol’ Boys -culture with senior management being strictly older male WASPs. In other words, would you be the only PoC there? The only black guy? Are there women working there too? There are different levels of Not-Diverse a workplace can adhere to. And while they can all be bad (and even diverse places can be bad – all it takes is one That Guy/That Lady to ruin it), I’d expect the worser possibilities in the less diverse of the Not Diverse places.

    6. anonagain*

      I’ve largely given up. Instead I look for organizations that are well run with reasonable managers and clear expectations. I figure I’m probably going to be dealing with some nonsense either way, but I’d rather deal with it in the context of a job that isn’t constant chaos.

      I really don’t pay any attention to what an organization says about diversity or what their group photos look like or any of that. The worst places I’ve worked trumpeted their diversity initiatives the most. We were also constantly being made to talk about diversity and go to trainings, which only sounds like a positive. In reality it was just sitting in a room listening to people say appalling things while trying not to look disgusted, because that would be disrespectful and we were all there to learn. I’d rather never hear another word about diversity at work than have to go through that again.

      That doesn’t sound like your style though and I’m not sure you really can avoid talking about these issues in education. I’m also aware that the challenges for black men in the workplace are somewhat different than those facing black women. It’s obviously complicated, but as far as day to day interactions, there are certainly people who would cross the street when they see a black man, who don’t cross the street when they see me.

      I regularly have people assume I am stupid, but only occasionally do they assume I’m a threat. If the frequencies were flipped, I might find it harder to live with. (I am also disabled, which I’m certain factors into this. People often treat me as a non-entity or a tall, dim child when I use my mobility aids. It’s infuriating, but it doesn’t make me feel that I might be in danger.)

      That was all a long way of saying that I don’t have any answers for you, only commiseration. I hope you are able to find an organization where you have opportunities for advancement and you don’t have to erase yourself in order to survive.

  40. schnauzerfan*

    I’m looking for advice on project management tools. I work on a team of about 10 people. Right now there are two of us who try to herd these cats… Could you, would you, did you? We have lots of irons in the fire. Small irons, and one big annual iron… We do an annual 10 week film series. Most of the work is managed by one person, she’s ran this show for the last 25! years. She does a beautiful job, and she’s never not managed to pull things off with help from the rest of the team… but. If anything were to happen to her I can see our team going down in flames, I have her consent to work with me to figure out what needs to happen and when as we had a bad scare with her health last year. We have a bunch of other smaller projects we’d like to keep better tabs on too, be more equitable in parceling them out and be able to track progress and step in if something seems to be lagging or going of the rails. Lots of small things like make sure to assign someone to photograph the tree planting for earth day and then set a reminder that it’s happening at noon. Or big anniversary coming up in a year need to start planning…

    Ideally everyone would be able to see public parts and be able to update their own pieces. Also, ideally it should be inexpensive, free. :)

    1. Admin of Sys*

      Trello is my go to for any team project work, I like how flexible it is. It includes assignments and timing (if you enable that feature) and can be easily worked on. It’s a kanban based system though, and not everyone likes those.

    2. Lepidoptera*

      We use Liquid Planner. I find it cumbersome, because it relies on the project owners and admins setting everything up perfectly, with a lot of repetitive headlines/descriptors, or else you end up being assigned tasks that have no context. It also requires a monitor the width of a billboard to open all the timelines once you dive down into multiple sub-levels.

      1. AccountantWendy*

        I should add, I love that Asana has collaborative tools. So you can have a project and everyone is assigned their tasks but those tasks are “public” to the project members, you can comment on your tasks or other people’s tasks, store files, etc.

    5. Analytical Tree Hugger*

      From my experience in helping two teams in my organization (attempt) to become better at project management, first ask, “Do we have a TECHNOLOGY problem or a BEHAVIOR problem?”

      If it’s the latter, trying to solve the problem by bringing in more tools/technology isn’t going to work. From what you wrote, it sounds like there isn’t any project management system in place, so that’s where I recommend you start. That is, do we implement a Waterfall style system? Some form of Agile? Kanban?

      I devoted a lot of time looking at tools and everyone was excited for about…an hour, then they just went back to doing what they’ve always done (i.e. fly by the seat of their pants and complain about how many meetings we have to have to stay coordinated) instead of using the tool.

  41. When to Ask*

    A job just posted that I’m very interested in an email blast for my profession. The person who is hiring is the one who sent it out and said she is very open to any questions about the position.

    I am really curious about the work culture there (beyond what I can find online.)

    My current job is really not great about diversity and inclusion, and this is what I’m looking for as a queer WOC in my next work place. How exactly do I ask if it’s a diverse and inclusive workplace? Like I know they can say that on their website, but sometimes I find that it’s just for say and there aren’t supports in place for women, POC, queer folks, etc to keep them there and feel welcome. Asking “What’s your work culture like?” leads to more broad answers when I really want to get at is “How do you support diversity and inclusivity in the workplace? Will I feel like I can’t speak up or be outed if I do?”

    What’s the best way to word this? Should I ask it up front with the person hiring who offered to answer questions? Or wait until I possibly get an interview? The position itself is focused on equity, so I don’t think that it would be that out of line to ask, but I get the sense that asking this question is taboo, even though it is important.

    1. Justin*

      hahaah I literally just asked the same question a few posts above (I’m a cishet man, but I’m black).

      I am joining this thread to see what people suggest.

      Last summer I asked interviewers if I would be the only black guy on the team, and they were all… very… uncomfortable… Mostly they said, “We have several employees of color.” So I took that to mean “yeah.”

      So I don’t know. And it’s a shame we have to vet places for this (your situation is far more complex than mine, of course).

      1. When to Ask*

        Yeah, people get real weird about this kind of stuff (which, I sometimes take as a yellow flag… and sometimes chalk it up to they’re hopefully working on this kind of thing.) Your situation is still complex! Did you end up working with any of the companies you asked that question to?

        1. Justin*

          Nope. In fact I sort of lost a friend (who had asked me about the job), but we weren’t that close. I’ve been discarding sort-of-friends since I got more conscious of the impact of these microaggressions and their dismissal of it, which is lonely but necessary.

          And it’s true, the discomfort could be their being uncomfortable with the homogeneity of their team/workplace. But I’ve gotten better at teasing out which direction the discomfort flows, either towards me for bringing it up or towards the environment being questioned.

          Because frankly they should be uncomfortable with a fully homogenous environment (I will mention I’m in NYC, where you have to work pretty hard to be homogenous).

          What have you done in the past?

      2. S-Mart*

        I’m a white guy, so my perspective might not be useful for you. Feel free to disregard.

        Having said that, if in an interview you asked me if you’d be the only black guy on the team I’d probably answer “yes” – because it’s true and the first answer that would come to mind. But depending on what you’re looking for in the answer it might not give you everything you want. My team has 2 white guys out of 7 total team members (count includes our manager, who is not one of the white guys).

        For both you and When, I’d suggest something akin to “Can you speak about the current diversity in both the team and the overall company? Are there any efforts to change or maintain that?”

        1. Justin*

          No, it’s useful to hear.

          Frankly when I ask that it’s more how it’s answered than the literal answer that matters. I had seen only white faces on the staffing list.

          ““Can you speak about the current diversity in both the team and the overall company? Are there any efforts to change or maintain that?”” I like this, though. It’s practical and direct, and if the answer is evasive I can press.

          1. ThatGirl*

            I rarely am in interviews but I’d like it if someone asked our HR team that. This company is pretty publicly committed to diversity and has anti-discrimination policies that include gender identity and sexuality, but I am quite sure we could do more. We do have a queer POC man as a VP, and black, Asian and Latinx employees, plus a whole lot of women. But even so. In the Chicago metro area, we can always do better.

        2. G. Lefoux*

          I like this question, and I think were I asking it, the main thing I would be looking for in their reply is:

          1. Are they able to offer me numbers? Do they lump all diversity together, i.e. “we have a very diverse team” or get more demographically specific? (Is this something they’re tracking and aware of as a priority?)

          2. Do they distinguish between teams and levels? (Are they aware of the power imbalances in where what diversity they have is showing up?)

          3. If they lack diversity, whose fault do they claim it is? (Are they willing to take a hard look at themselves, or are they just going to sit back and claim that minorities mysteriously don’t apply there, or don’t stay long?)

          4. Do they present this information calmly, or seem defensive or flustered? (Are they willing to own up to mistakes, or are you going to be required to emotionally support them through Allyship 101?)

        1. Justin*

          I want to start a worker-owned education company after I get that Dr., but, well, that’s down the line.

    2. LabTechNoMore*

      These threads about PoC/queer inclusion in the workplace are timely for me. Coworker called me a racial slur, and boss started avoiding me after I reported it to him, and started spending more time with racist coworker. In a three-person office. While I’ve been explicit about these patterns being a problem, I’m sick of having to remind my boss every few weeks to treat me like a human being. Time to find a new job!

  42. Messed up an interview*

    I had a phone interview for the first time in a while yesterday and while I was overly anxious and super awkward throughout the whole thing, there was one point where I made a really bad and basic mistake. I’m pretty sure I’m not going to go onto the next round anyway, but the thing is that two of the people on the search committee are people I’ve spent a fair amount of time with at professional conferences.

    Does anyone have any advice with interacting with people in your professional network after royally messing up in an interview?

    1. Lilysparrow*

      I just acted a normal level of glad to see them, and we all pretended it didn’t happen.

      I mean, if you were telling a professional contact about it, you’d say something like, “I interviewed there, but it didnt work out,” or “it wasn’t the right fit.” Nobody gets every job they interview for, it’s nothing to be embarrassed about.

      So you just keep diligently telling yourself that, and act accordingly. After a while your feelings change, and it isn’t a big deal anymore.

    2. noahwynn*

      Not exactly the same, about six months ago I really struggled in an interview for a stretch position at a different company. I knew I probably didn’t get the job when I left and I was correct.

      Last week I had to see a lot of the same people at an industry conference. We all just pretended it never happened. They didn’t bring it up and neither did I. I have a new job that I started in January with a competitor and they were genuinely happy for me about that. We even went out to dinner and then drinks one night with a group from the company. It was a lot less awkward than I thought it was going to be and once we got over the first few minutes of talking it was clear it was all fine.

      1. noahwynn*

        Oh, and I knew almost all of them before I interviewed there. One was even an intern with me at a third company.

  43. BlueDays*

    Question about handling overtime!

    My last two jobs had policies where you could only do overtime if you got approval in advance to do a specific amount of overtime. I ended up doing a lot of unpaid overtime because I would get “important” or “urgent” requests at the very end of the day or as I was leaving and would need stay 10 to 30 minutes late to take care of it. This would happen a few days a week to everyday in a week, so it added up.

    At one job, I was a temp with a supervisor who would respond to questions with “I’ll get back to you about it ASAP” and then never get back to you. So after a few months of doing unpaid overtime and not getting any answers on how to handle it, I just stopped answering my phone and e-mails for the last fifteen minutes of the day so I wouldn’t get roped into staying late.

    At the other job, I had a toxic manager who would yell at us for things that weren’t our fault (like if she told us to do something specific and then doing it that way turned out to be wrong). She actually got in trouble for telling some of my teammates they had to do unpaid overtime. I was afraid of dealing with her myself, so if I had an “extra” hour or two of time clocked in at the end of the week, I would just edit my time cards to show that I hadn’t worked any overtime.

    I don’t want to do any unpaid overtime in the future, so when I get a new job I want to make sure I discuss it with my supervisor right away. I’m not sure how to do it without coming across as someone who wants to nickel and dime the company though. How would you guys broach the topic of how to handle it if you have to stay a bit late? Or should I just be leaving at the exact time my shift ends?

    1. Four lights*

      First, if you work you deserve to be paid. You’re not nickle and dimeing any one.

      Just from reading this website, I think a good way to approach it is we– like “We don’t want the company to get in trouble.” I would also treat it as a given that you can’t do overtime. “Unfortunately I can’t finish this tonight because I’ve already worked 8 hours and I can’t do overtime because _____. I’ll get on it first thing in the morning.” “We could get in trouble if I work overtime and don’t get paid for it.”

      Also, don’t be afraid to speak up to HR (it looks like at the second job they were trying to stop the unpaid overtime.) I know it can be uncomfortable to deal with conflict, but sometimes you have to push yourself so that you get what you need.

      1. zora*

        I have dealt with this exact struggle in the past. After the first time I was asked for something late, I approached my direct supervisor the next day and said “I was asked to do something last night that would have taken about 20 minutes after 5pm to finish. How do you want me to deal with that next time, should I ask you about permission for overtime,or should I say I can’t do it?”

        One boss was not great and very difficult to work with, but still this phrasing worked. At some places, I have been told to just always say I’m not allowed, and direct them to my manager for help.

        At other places (like my current place), I text my boss immediately (or ask in person if she’s in the office) and say I have this request, I think it will take this long, am I approved for over time to finish it? And in my current job, she always says yes. Then I just put on my timesheet “Approved by [Boss Name]”

        Be aware, usually under US law (of course there are exceptions) 5-7 minutes is able to be rounded down and isn’t considered a legal violation. So, my personal cutoff in my head is 5 minutes. If I will still be out the door by 5:05, I don’t worry about it. If it will be more like 5:10, I either push to the next day, or ask permission for overtime.

        I know it feels totally awkward to push back and ask about this. I still have that little twinge of guilt when I ask my boss for approval now. But, you get used to it. And it is really what you are owed!! Take care of yourself and ask for what you are worth, YOU ARE WORTH IT!

    2. WellRed*

      I don’t understand why you didn’t put in for your overtime. You worked it, put it on your timecard. If they have an issue with it, they will need to change how they communicate that with you going forward. With a new job, you can ask upfront, “how is overtime handled here?”

    3. Not Me*

      Assuming you work in the US…A policy that overtime needs to be approved before it’s worked shouldn’t mean you don’t get paid if you don’t get approval. You legally need to be paid for all time worked. You might be reprimanded (up to and including termination if it happens a lot) but you still need to be paid.

      I would handle it when it happens as if it’s a mistake on your paycheck “Oh, my check isn’t accurate. I worked x hours last week, this is only for y. Who do I talk to about fixing this?” But really, you shouldn’t be going into a job expecting them to not pay you for time worked, I’m sorry that’s been happening to you.

    4. Natalie*

      It’s common to have a policy requiring prior authorization for overtime, but that generally doesn’t mean you work unpaid if you stayed a little late two or three days and ended up with an hour of overtime at the end of the week. They’re generally intended to keep someone from thinking they should show up on Saturday and work a whole shift without getting someone’s okay. Employers are required to pay you for all hours they “suffer or permit” you to work, including overtime, regardless of whether you got their permission.

      Kindly meant, from your examples this sounds mostly like a you problem. It doesn’t seem like anyone asked you to work unpaid, you just assumed you should for some reason. Your toxic supervisor even got in trouble for asking people to work unpaid, which is an indication that the company did not expect this from their employees. Honestly, I would work on adjusting your own expectations and attitude.

      You are not a supplicant, begging your employer to provide for you a la Oliver wanting more gruel. You made an agreement with them to sell your labor, and they agreed to pay you. Assuming they’ll honor that agreement (and obey the law) isn’t “nickel and diming” them at all! It’s just… assuming they’ll behave normally.

      When you’re at a new job, and you have to stay late, I would treat it very matter of factly with your supervisor – “hey Joe, I was here until 5:30 last night because of [blah]. Should I put in for overtime or leave early on Friday?” *Obviously* your company will be behaving properly and paying for all the hours you work, you’re just figuring out the logistics.

      2. zora*

        Everything you said is right on, but I would adjust what you say to the supervisor the first time this happens at a new job. I wrote this above, but I always have started with “Hey Joe, I was here until 5:30 […] In the future, if someone asks me to do something that will take longer than 5:00pm, how do you want me to handle that? Should I get you to approve overtime first? Or should I say I can do it first thing in the morning?”

        Because every place is different, and some really just don’t want to do overtime. But this way I can then always ‘blame’ it on my boss moving forward. “Oh, sorry Sal, i can’t do that because Joe won’t allow me to work past 5pm. But you can talk to him if you need support with something.”

        1. Natalie*

          Sure, I was talking specifically about asking when some kind of staying late has already occurred, but asking about what they want you to do generally is also a good call. As long as you are not including “work unpaid” in your own mind or in the choices your offering, that’s the important bit.

          1. zora*

            Definitely!!! The two options are: “get permission” and “don’t do it” … not “do it and then not put it on my timecard” I know how tempting it is to not rock the boat, but it’s just not ok to do that to yourself.

    5. CM*

      I would wait until it comes up and the just straightforwardly ask how to report your hours or whether you need approval. Don’t work for free, though.

      If you’re in a situation where overtime has to be approved and it’s not possible to get approval before you clock out, that’s really an issue for someone else to figure out. Either the requests are coming too late or the approved is not available at the right times. Unless it’s a life and death emergency, make a good faith attempt to follow the approval process and, if it doesn’t work, clock out. And, if you call your boss and leave a message asking for approval make clear that if you don’t hear back by the end of your shift you’ll leave as normal.

  44. De Minimis*

    So I’m about a month into my new job, and am running into an issue I’ve always kind of ran into when starting jobs. I never seem to have the actual experience that my supervisors expect. There always seem to be some key tasks that they need me to do that for various reasons, I haven’t had experience doing up to now even though I have about 7 years experience in my field. It takes me longer to do these tasks and I often make a lot of mistakes, and there’s often some surprise/disappointment that I’m not able to do these things right away.

    I think I’m generally good at receiving feedback professionally as far as not getting defensive and trying to implement things, but I always go into this internal panic mode where I start speculating about whether I may be fired during my probationary period. I was fired for poor performance from my first job in this field and it took me a few years to get things back on track. I’ve succeeded in my last couple of jobs since then, each of which I’ve held for a fairly good amount of time. But I always have this worry that I’ll have trouble adjusting and my new bosses will decide to just cut their losses. How do I get over this? I’m always on edge for the first several months in any new job.

    1. MissGirl*

      I think this is really common. Even if you have experience in X, X is done differently at each company. I also noticed hiring managers don’t remember exactly what your experience is from the time they interview you until that moment they need that experience.

    2. Not So NewReader*

      Keep in mind that good bosses will give you plenty of warning and opportunity to fix things before firing you.

      It’s pretty normal not to be in sync at first. Some bosses realize that is part of the process of on-boarding a new person. Some bosses think that stuff should be in our genes at birth and we should automatically know. The second type of boss is not someone to work for.

      I know I worry about messing stuff up also.
      When I started the job I have now, it was a new to me field. I kept a binder of examples to refer back to, in fact I still have that binder. (My examples are in one place and in a particular order that is useful and quick for me.)

      I used previous things to guide me in doing the current thing, for example I used last month’s X report to guide me to do current month’s X report.

      I also have a bullet journal type of set up where I put down stuff I need to remember, but I have no where else to write it.

      I found it helpful to tell myself, there WILL be mistakes. Initially, I checked things three times before letting the thing move off of my desk. My personal goal is not to make the same mistake twice. Bosses do notice this and what happens is they become less worried about mistakes.

      It’s always helpful when a boss tells us when to check in. “Do steps 1 through 3, then show me what you got before moving to step 4.” However, if they don’t there might be times where it makes sense to just stop yourself and find the boss or cohort to look at something with you for a minute before you proceed. This is good in situations where mistakes compound, for example where that $5 error in the beginning becomes a $50k error at the end. (BTDT, sigh.) Stopping part way can prevent problems later.

      This may/may not fit your setting, I started a list of who to ask about what. That list has grown to three pages over the years. No reasonable person is going to retain all this. Here, make sure that you are being reasonable with you, NO you are not going to remember the names of the 50 people on your floor. That’s not reasonable to assume. Write it down. And this goes for many things, be sure that you set yourself up to win. Write stuff down like all your contacts or all your reference sources.

      Correct your self-talk. Yes, start making yourself use affirmations. Yes, it matters. In the years I have spent training and supervising the people who tried to keep themselves buoyed up made out better than the ones who did not watch what they told themselves. I could see it in their work and their productivity levels. Unfortunately, as a supervisor I could not “make” people think positive thoughts. The best I could do was tell them to use their thinking to encourage themselves onward.

      To address your last few sentences- I don’t think we ever fully get over being fired. I was fired from my first job. Telling me that it was a crap job was not helpful, that firing stung for quite a while. Take that worry and channel that into an action plan. Organize your work and the supporting information you need to do your job. Encourage yourself onward, yes, you will falter and go back to worrying. When that happens just correct yourself, “I will work at things every day so I do not get fired.” Ask questions, write the answers down in your journal if need be. If you feel yourself going off track, stop and ask for help, don’t let yourself flounder day after day.

  45. Science of Working*

    I would love some feedback on a blog post I wrote about workplace norms based on the discussion on this blog – with credit to Alison and Ask A Manager. The post is at “scienceofworking.com” – I’m not sure how to put in links in these comments. I focused the post on corporate summer interns, because I have witnessed all of these behaviors. Is the post helpful? Any feedback? I’m new to blogging, so I would appreciate any constructive criticism.

    I started this blog a few months ago. It was part of a possible plan to leave my corporate job and start a solo executive coaching business. Good thing I had a plan, because I was fired on Monday. And had major surgery on Tuesday – yes, they fired me the day before major surgery. My last day is not for a few months (long transition), so my benefits are still in place. Guess I’ll be happy for that…

    1. Ask a Manager* Post author

      You can just put the link directly in the comment (in this case, do it as a reply to your original comment). It’ll go through moderation first.

  46. atalanta0jess*

    I have a new office that is in a convergence zone between three tiny, stinky bathrooms where people love to spend time in the morning because they think they’re private. (It’s a weird old building kind of sitch) So, it stinks. Aside from keeping my door closed, which I am loathe to do for friendliness/accessibility reasons, does anyone have ideas about managing the stink without flaring up people’s allergies, etc? We are not a scent free office, but I do want to be considerate.

    1. Admin of Sys*

      Get one of those hepa / activated carbon air purifies for your office – they should help out. But also, if you put a sign up that says ‘please come in’ vs ‘in a meeting’ folks will quickly learn it’s all right to come in even if the door is closed.

    2. CupcakeCounter*

      Air filter/purifier. Use allergies or old building as an excuse if you want. You can also put a small essential oil diffuser on your desk as those tend to be less of an issue. I like using more “food-like” oils such as peppermint, wintergreen, orange, and cinnamon since they tend to be less obnoxious to others.

    5. kristinemc*

      We have the fresh wave odor absorber linked from Target (we have bunnies) and it helps. There is also a Nature’s Air odor absorber that isn’t very scented that we have in the bunny room – their sense of smell is really good, so I am always hesitant have things scented near them!

    6. Batgirl*

      Baking soda absorbs odour. You can put it in a bowl. Or mix it with water and put it in a spray bottle. Certain

    7. Batgirl*

      Baking soda absorbs odours. You can put it in a bowl or mix with water in a spray bottle. Certain plants also clean the air like aloe vera.

  47. Jan Levinson*

    Does anyone else work in an open office and have coworkers who use speakerphone ALL DAY? Our office is comprised of 8 salespeople and 5 interoffice staff members (I am part of the interoffice team). The salespeople are in/out of the office frequently, but when they are in the office conducting business, most of them use speakerphone about 80% of the time. I find this EXTREMELY disruptive! Am I off base? By the way, we all have hands-free headsets with our office phones, but the salespeople still tend to use their personal cell phones. I’m just speculating that they sometimes talk on speakerphone when they are trying to simultaneously do something on their computers, but many times that’s not even the case (i.e., I walk by their desks and they are on speakerphone, but not doing anything else with their hands).

    2. AudreyParker*

      Yes, I have worked in this environment and I think the fact it seemed crazy disrespectful to coworkers bothered me even more than the cacaphony. (I am also an open-office hater in general.) At the time, it didn’t feel like I was in a position to do anything other than seethe/suffer and occasionally comment. I think the real solution is to ask them to please use the headsets because it’s disruptive to your work, and not worry about how/why they use the personal phones since they obviously have an alternative or could very easily figure out a handsfree solution for their cell phones if needed. I see people walking down the street talking on speakerphone on their cell phones which is utterly inexplicable to me! I have a feeling most people in Sales tend to be of a personality that is just not flustered by noise and talking and it may not even occur to them how it impacts people around them.

  48. jack*

    It’s merit raise season for my work, and I’d like to ask for additional vacation time. I’m at 2 weeks right now and will get 3 weeks next year (5 yrs service time), but would like 3 years this year and 4 weeks starting next year. I’m wondering if you have any tips on how to phrase this for me and how I should go about it. My supervisor has changed multiple times since I started this position last September (left for another division in the company, then changed while they were waiting to promote my current supervisor). My current supervisor has only been that for a month (if that), so I know he’s not the one to go to. I believe his supervisor will be covering my merit assessment, so should I go to him? Big problem is we work on opposite sides of the country. I’ll be seeing him next week, but it’s because of a customer issue and I’m not sure it’s the right time to talk about this, but it will be the only time I see him before merits go into effect.

    Any advice would be appreciated.

    1. C*

      How big is your company? Is paid vacation a negotiable thing? At my company it’s really not, and asking for an extra week two years in a row, before you’re even eligible for the first week’s bump would not be received well. Particularly with a new supervisor situation.

      1. jack*

        It’s a large international company. I know people who have negotiated more vacation as part of their initial offer, but I don’t know about once you’re already here. I’d be willing to just bump an extra week next year (so 4 weeks instead of 3 but stay at 2 this year), but my annoyance is with the fact that our current system means I wouldn’t get 4 weeks until 15 years of service, which seems like some BS tbh.

        1. Jem One*

          Only four weeks after 15 years service does seem pretty poor.

          I’m in the UK, so norms are different, but we get 5 weeks when we start (plus public holidays), 6 weeks after 5 years service, 7 weeks after 15 years service.

    2. Not Me*

      Are you asking for the vacation time in lieu of a pay raise? Or both pay raise and the additional vacation?

      Most companies, especially big companies, don’t negotiate vacation time. It’s a logistic nightmare to have 100’s of different vacation plans, it creates equality issues that are very easy to see, etc. Depending on the size of your company I think you’d have more luck asking for more money than more vacation. Especially given your short tenure with the company.

      1. jack*

        I would take it in lieu of a raise this year. I know that different people have different vacation plans. If you were hired before X date you have one plan, and like I mentioned I know people who negotiated different amounts. It’s also not really tracked for salaried positions, so I’m not concerned about the logistics.

        The reason I’m even considering this is because I was hired in as part of a management trainee program, and I’ve been asked a number of times what would keep me and people like me (recent grads) in our roles and happy with our positions. And this is something that, personally, would go a long way to keeping me at Company. If I have to wait until I’m almost 40 before I can get 4 weeks off? I’m not going to stick around.

        1. Not Me*

          Who is it that’s asking what would keep you happy? Can you ask that person, or one of those people, who the best person to have the conversation with is?

          If it’s common to negotiate vacation at your company I wouldn’t start with telling them you’d like more vacation in lieu of a pay raise. I would assume a merit increase and request the additional vacation. If they say no, then offer to skip the merit increase in exchange for the increased vacation time.

          I’d do it fast though if it’s merit season, they’re likely already making decisions on merit pools long before employees have any idea.

          1. jack*

            Yeah, I wasn’t planning on offering that right off the bat. I’ve been asked by people who are equivalent to my GrandBoss, but in a different department. It’s a little convoluted but I dotted line report to that department as well.

        2. Spouter of Gibberish*

          Why not both? If you can’t get a raise and an extra week, then ask for a bigger raise and the ability to take a week unpaid (end result would be the raise would offset the unpaid week).

    3. CupcakeCounter*

      That is going to be a serious long shot based on my experience. I tried to get an extra week when I was negotiating for my current job and it was a hard no (combo of company policy and my level coming in just wasn’t high enough). 6+ years later I’m currently interviewing and am flat out refusing to take less than the 3 weeks plus sick time I currently have and a couple places are still hemming and hawing about it.
      You might be able to get the 3rd week early but jumping to 4 weeks next year is very unlikely.
      I would call or email him and ask if you can have a one on one to discuss your compensation package while he is in your area. I would also not book any vacations based on asking either. Sorry but most places have very specific schedules for moving up to the next vacation bracket and adding 2 weeks over 2 years isn’t going to fly unless you are a very high in demand individual.

      1. jack*

        God that’s so frustrating. I don’t have anything planned this year, but I do have weddings on weddings on weddings on the other side of the country and could use a little extra time for vacation for ME lol

  49. White Rabbit*

    I’m perpetually late to the office in the mornings, by up to 15 minutes. I’ve tried going to bed earlier, getting up earlier, making sure all my stuff is ready (clean/ironed clothes laid out, bag packed and next to the door, gas tank full enough), prepping my morning coffee so all I have to do is push the button….and I still wake up exhausted, hit snooze a couple of times, make/drink a quick cup of coffee, and drag myself off to the shower with juuuuuust enough time if everything goes right (it usually doesn’t–traffic or no parking in our lot so I have to walk an extra 5min or something). Current schedule is that my alarm goes off 3.5h before I should be in, and it’s a 25min commute.

    I call in to the first meeting of the day if I haven’t made it in, but I will not be able to do that starting in June. It’s stressful and exhausts me further when I’m already tired, and I don’t know how to fix this.

    1. jack*

      I don’t want to be an armchair physician, but is there anything medical that you could look into?

      1. jack*

        To be more clear: is there something that might be up with you physically that you don’t get enough rest or are tired all the time?

      2. White Rabbit*

        I have an anxiety disorder, but that’s been pretty well managed for a decade. I’ve been trying to get a new GP for a couple of months. I will definitely mention once I finally get an appointment.

      3. Marvel*

        For the record, I struggle with almost identical issues, and I was diagnosed with ADHD this year. Women (or people socialized as women) and people with more inattentive than hyperactive symptom sets are chronically under-diagnosed and often never diagnosed at all.

        That’s just one example of what could be going on! But I also think it’s worth looking into.

        1. Dragoning*

          Hiya, unrelated, but trans people tend to prefer the phrasing “perceived as men/women” because it’s puts the onus back other people and “Socialized as men” is used against trans women A LOT.

          1. Marvel*

            Hi! While I appreciate your concern (I mean that honestly; I’m glad to see people politely approaching others about the language they use when there’s a potential problem), I am trans. I use both, and both are actually important to my experience of gender for several reasons that I won’t get into here.

            I take your point, but this is also a decision I get to make as a trans person. I will respect your decision if you choose not to use it!

            1. Marvel*

              Though, to be clear–I also think acting like trans women aren’t “socialized as women” or don’t experience “female socialization” is absolutely absurd. It’s silly to assume that everyone has the same experience of gender growing up and absorbs 100% of the messages that are targeted toward their perceived gender and 0% of the ones that are targeted toward their gender identity. For trans people it is often far more complicated than that!

              Sorry for the double comment, but I did want to acknowledge that I realize where the objection to the phrasing comes from. I just think the problem is with the usage (“you can’t be a woman because you didn’t experience ~female socialization~ in exactly the same manner as me!”) and not the phrasing itself.

      4. Jules the 3rd*

        I woke up exhausted after 8 – 10 hrs sleep, was diagnosed with sleep apnea. Life is much better now that’s under control. Go see your doctor if you can.

        1. Sharrbe*

          I second this. Look for a medical cause because you’ve tried to modify your behavior on your own. This sounds way beyond just not being a “morning person”. It matters how much sleep you get, yes, but the QUALITY of that sleep is just as important. If you’re getting 8 hours of poor quality sleep, you’re still going to be exhausted in the morning.

    2. Cheesesteak in Paradise*

      Yeah I don’t know what’s going on but getting up 3 hours before you have to leave for work and still being late isn’t normal…

      Not sure what is going on during those 3 hours at home… you are just snoozing the alarm a bunch then coffee/shower? What time do you go to bed relative to when you get up?

      Could be either sleep issues or executive function issues.

      1. Sherm*

        On that note, a lot of people convince themselves they need less sleep than they actually do. 99% of us (I am not making up that percentage) need about 7.5 hours of sleep.

      2. White Rabbit*

        I snooze the alarm for a max of 30min; there’s another “GET UP NOWWW” alarm. Usually go to bed about 7h ahead of the snooze-alarm. Maybe I need to go to bed even before that, but that starts to cut into food-prep time and I usually feel worse if I don’t eat healthily too. :-\

        1. Cheesesteak in Paradise*

          OK, I still don’t get the time breakdown.

          You snooze 30 min plus shower/dress/eat breakfast 30 min plus commute 30 min = 90 min. Why is this taking 3.5 hours?

          1. AvonLady Barksdale*

            Yeah, I think it’s worth it to take a look at your morning routine and exactly what you’re doing. Unless you’re spending an hour in the shower, it doesn’t sound like there’s anything concrete that should be holding you back quite that much. Do you work out in the morning? Do you read the paper or online articles while you eat breakfast/drink your coffee?

            1. White Rabbit*

              I honestly don’t know. I check my two personal email addresses, clear my FB notifs, and skim Slack, but that takes under ten minutes (as I usually do it between waking up and the final snooze alarm screaming–each snooze is ten minutes). I feel like half the time I’m supposed to be getting ready I’m just staring into space, half-asleep, while time passes because suddenly I look up from holding the shirt I’m about to put on and eight minutes have passed.

              1. Dragoning*

                I’m going to be a contrarian and say: get up later.

                You’re sleeping for 7 hours, getting up groggy well before you necessarily need to because you’re exhausted, but…

                everyone has a different circadian rhythm. Maybe yours would benefit from staying up a bit later and waking a bit later. You might not need two hours to get ready if they’re more productive hours.

              2. BRR*

                If you can some mornings I would write down how you spend your time. There are several other suggestions here that might help but there’s a lot of lost time in there. And when you do this, be forgiving of yourself if you catch yourself not optimizing your time because the important part is being honest.

              3. Deryn*

                This is a really great suggestion! I actually work as a sleep and executive function researcher, so this is something I give as a recommendation all the time. Figure out what you need to do, and maybe even time how long it takes you to do each task, and then I would also suggest that you make a list or schedule and post it up somewhere where you see it – like in the bathroom where you get ready or in your bedroom. If you find yourself getting off track, it would be worth going back and seeing if you can break any of those steps down into smaller chunks (“gather belongings that I’m taking with me” might work better as “put lunch in backpack,” and “fill travel mug,” and “find coat” as separate items). It might feel silly or childish, but when you make it through your list successfully, reward yourself! There’s a lot of things that I normally go over in a session with someone presenting for sleep issues, but the schedule is one of the suggestions that folks most often report finding useful and liking!

                As an aside, this is not to armchair diagnose or to scare you, but if feel that you are truly “losing time,” e.g., not just losing track of time, it would be worth mentioning it to your doctor. There are certain types of seizures and neurological conditions that “losing time” can be a symptom of.

                1. noahwynn*

                  This actually sounds like one of the tips I was given for ADHD as well. Have small manageable tasks and then keep going back to the list when you complete one.

      3. Llellayena*

        This. Would you wake up more rested if you set the alarm later instead of earlier? Setting it later and locating it where you have to get out of bed to turn it off might get you actually moving sooner than setting it earlier and snoozing.

    3. Booksaregood*

      Maybe put your alarm clock somewhere far enough from your bed that you have to get up to turn it off?

      2. Anonysand*

        I had a friend in high school who was perpetually late in the mornings, and her alarm routine was funny, if not effective: she would set her alarm somewhere difficult to get to (under her bed, in the closet, on the top of her bookshelf, etc), so when it went off she would be forced to get out of bed and be coherent enough to be able to get to it AND turn it off. It was a little extreme, but it worked!

        I also find that these help for me: setting strict time to go to sleep (for me, that’s never after 10:30 PM), get some caffeine as soon as I wake up (thank goodness for coffee machines with automatic timers), and not defining my morning by what time “I should leave now” versus “I can’t leave any later than 8:15.” My hard stop “must leave” time has become the time that gives me a 10 minute cushion.

    4. Catleesi*

      Snoozing a bunch could potentially be giving you less “valuable” sleep than if you just set your alarm a little later and had uninterrupted sleep during that time. I mean if you are laying in bed snoozing every 10 minutes for 2 hours you’re not really sleeping. Could that be contributing possibly?

      1. Not Me*

        That’s what I was thinking too. Interrupting your sleeping like that screws with your sleep pattern and you’ll wake up groggy and more tired than if you just get up when the alarm goes off.

      2. LadyByTheLake*

        Ditto. Have the alarm go off when it should go off and then get up. Having the alarm constantly going off during the period of sleep when you should be getting the deepest sleep means that you aren’t sleeping. No wonder you’re exhausted.

        1. Kat in VA*

          Fourthed. Snoozing really jacks up your sleep cycle because you’re not really getting “rest”. Like others said, add up all the snooze time to the original alarm time and then get up at that time. No snoozing, no stretching, no grabbing just another minute or two.

          I could probably get up 45 minutes later if I didn’t take a shower in the morning, but the few times I’ve tried it, I’m even groggier than usual. Partly because of interrupting the cycle I’m used to, and partly because I really need that shower to wake up.

    5. WellRed*

      Set your alarm later. By the time you are pounding on the stupid snooze button, you are now in an interrupted sleep phase, not actually sleeping.

      I also agree with other comments that you may have some sort of bigger sleep issue.

    6. Nessun*

      I’ve had good experiences with a simulated sunrise clock – it gradually becomes brighter, from red to orange to yellow to white, so it brightens the room gradually, which is hard to sleep through. (I live fairly far North in Canada, and it also helps for those why-is-there-no-sunlight-in-this-godforsaken-country winters.) I also put it on the other side of the room, so I have to get up to dim the darn thing before it blinds me… And it has a setting for radio or nature noises, which become louder over time. It’s epically hard to ignore on any level, but it works on a gradual scale, so I find I can shuffle out of bed in time to stop it before it’s a huge annoyance, and it’s motivating to get up to stop it!

      1. Red Reader the Adulting Fairy*

        similarly, when I slept alone and had a hard time getting up in the morning, especially during the winter when “getting up time” was significantly before “sunrise,” plugging a lamp into a timer so that it would go on a few minutes before my alarm went off was a game changer.

        The “light alarm” is less viable of an option now that I share my bedroom, since our getting-up times are not similar, but adding a 5000 iu Vitamin D gelcap to my daily vitamins has also made a significant improvement in my ability to reliably get up before dawn.

      2. White Rabbit*

        My sunrise clock with nature sounds is pretty much the reason I DO get up, yes! I have a tendency to roll over so it’s not in my face when I’m not quite awake though. Sleepy Me is a jerk.

        1. White Rabbit*

          I even got some wifi lights and wifi timers, which also go on after that to make it unbearable. Sleepy Me at some point realized that there are bedcovers. *facepalm*

    7. JokersandRogues*

      Well, what I’m doing right now is getting up the moment the alarm goes but setting the snooze. I then have to hit various “getting ready” milestones at each subsequent snooze (showering, being dressed, making coffee etc.) I don’t shut the alarm off completely until I’m walking out the door. The alarm going at intervals keeps me from sinking too far into coffee reverie or reading reverie.

      1. White Rabbit*

        Now that you mention it, I’ve done something smaller but similar with some success in the past with some success. I will give this a try as a more structured system, thank you :D

        1. JokersandRogues*

          Sure! I had to go to this after I was laid off and got a subsequent job because I’m not allowed to sleep in anymore.

    8. Admin of Sys*

      I feel for you – my current timeline is 3 hours of prep and I’m still fighting 10/20 minutes late. (mind you, my office doesn’t care and I’m not the last one in, so it’s harder to motivate myself)
      I’ve found it helpful for me to not actually get up and start the day right off? If the thing I have to do when I get up is get a cup of coffee and read for 20 minutes while having toast, I’m much more likely to get out of bed rather than hit snooze. And as long as there’s something that interrupts my reading, I’m a lot more into the idea of dressing for work and leaving than I would be if I was stumbling up from the bed.

      1. White Rabbit*

        Hm, yeah, I definitely need some me time, and adding reading with a built-in end-time like JokersandRogues suggested above might do it.

    9. Historia Trixie*

      Is it possible that you snore a lot? Obstructive sleep apnea will definitely make you feel like you’ve not slept enough and make it hard to get going in the morning – I speak from sad experience. Maybe ask your GP for a referral to a sleep lab?

      1. White Rabbit*

        Good point. I’ve been using Sleep As Android for a few years for sleep tracking/alarms to yell at me to go to bed at a reasonable hour and it tells me I’m snoring for 34% of my tracked sleep time over the past 3.5 years….and of the past month, 68% of my sleep time. I know I had a cold for some of April, but definitely not all.
        I will definitely talk to my new doctor. Thank you.

        1. Rusty Shackelford*

          Oh, yeah. There’s a VERY good chance that you’ve got sleep apnea, and that a CPAP will make a huge difference.

          1. Qwerty*

            Until you can get the appointments for a CPAP, try a humidifier and taking a light daily allergy pill – it’ll help you breathe. Dust and vacuum your bedroom frequently to prevent pollutants in the air that might make you congested. You’ll sleep so much better when you can breathe.

            Also consider starting a night-time routine that will help you relax so that its easier to fall asleep in the first place (which will make it easier if you need to move your bedtime earlier). Personal recommendation is Epsom salt lotion (I like Dr Teals) because 1) you get to give yourself a quick little relaxing massage 2) Epsom salt helps muscles relax = fall asleep faster 3) its a more effective way of absorbing magnesium, and we need all the vitamins we can get (apparently magnesium is something people don’t get enough of it. I need it for my migraines, but my friends say magnesium helps with their anxiety, so unexpected bonus there.)

    10. Rusty Shackelford*

      I’ve seen, somewhere, a chart or something that shows what time you need to go to bed if you need to get up at a particular time, using sleep cycles and stuff. Because it’s not just the hours of sleep, it’s the point you should be in your sleep cycle when you wake up. For example, if I wake up 1 hour before my alarm and manage to go back to sleep, I’ll be groggy as hell all morning, because when my alarm goes off, I’ll be at a bad point in my sleep cycle. But if I go ahead and get up, even though it’s an hour before my alarm, I’m fine.

      Also, how much time does it take to make your coffee? Could you rely on iced coffee, ready in the fridge, for your first drink instead? Or set up a timer so you don’t even have to wait for it?

      Can you shower in the evening?

      1. White Rabbit*

        Good points, many of which I do :)

        Re: sleep cycles, I’ve noticed this for sure. I’ve been using Sleep as Android for a few years to tell me when to go to bed (well, half an hour before that, actually, to give me time to shut down, brush teeth, etc). Still following this and when I don’t it’s worse than bad.

        Coffee takes ten minutes from pressing the button to putting in sugar/cream, to drinking the entire cup. The Keurig turns on five minutes before my first alarm so it’s warm and ready to go. Alas, I don’t drink cold beverages due to tooth sensitivity–I even wait for water from the sink to come up to room temp.

        Unfortunately showering in the evening still means showering in the morning for me–I sweat in my sleep, no matter how cool my bedroom is. :(

    11. Jan*

      I recommend looking into ways to manage Executive Function deficits. There are some specific strategies for dealing with poor time estimation, which is often what this is related to.

      One specific one is to use a timer for a week to time how long it actually takes you to do X, and Y, and Z. I know you’re thinking you already know how long these things take, but make a chart and write it down for a week or two. Then do the exact, actual math on what time you need to [get in the car, get in the shower, get out of bed].

      I have a little social anxiety that makes me really REALLY hate that three minutes before the meeting starts where people chit chat, but don’t have any actual conversation because the meeting is about to start and … yeah, it just stresses me out. I used to (sometimes unconsciously) try really not hard to be early to stuff because I was avoiding it. For me, giving myself something specific to do during the few minutes before the meeting starts (whether it’s sitting in my car outside the building listening to a podcast, or writing my grocery list in my seat at the meeting, or tidying my desk) that I can start and stop with no prep/cleanup time works well. I use an alarm on my phone to time it so that I arrive less than 30 seconds prior to any meeting. I found that once I took away the incentive to be late (missing the Awkward Time), it was much easier to address the bad habits.

      1. White Rabbit*

        I’ll ask my therapist about strategies to help with executive dysfunction in particular.

        My anxiety was so bad 15 years ago that I would NOT deal with being late–I’d just…not go. To the point where I’d be outside the classroom, but class started two minutes ago, and I’d be standing outside the door, see that class was underway, turn around. and go home. Getting my brain to flip over to the IDGAF If I’m Late side was how I managed to finish college after dropping out twice. This has not, however, made me not late. Which is exactly the opposite of what you’ve done!

    12. Aggretsuko*

      1. For the love of god, don’t snooze. If you have to, come up with the world’s worst alarm that scares the shit out of you every morning.
      2. Shower at night. I know that might wake you up more, but if you’re still tired every night and if you can cut one more thing out of the morning chores, do it. Unless you wake up a giant sweatball, probably nobody will notice.

      1. Anonysand*

        Your first point is so spot on. I used to use an alarm that was SUPER aggressive- often I’d set it on my phone and use loud, heavy music. It didn’t really bother me and I would rarely hit snooze. In the last year or so I’ve changed it to a quieter, more mellow alarm (because my husband was going crazy with my old one), and now I always hit snooze and I’m so much groggier when I do roll out of bed.

    13. Lilysparrow*

      Lack of quality sleep can create or mimic ADHD symptoms in neurotypical people. There are also a number of physical issues or nutrient deficiencies that can cause fatigue.

      I’d talk to your new doc about a comprehensive workup of a) blood work, including a thyroid panel; b) a sleep study; and then, if nothing shows up or if fixing those things doesn’t help, c) ADHD assessment.

      If you are deeply fatigued, hypothyroid, or sleep deprived, you could wind up with a false flag on ADHD. OTOH, sleep disorders are often comorbid, so having one doesn’t rule it out.

      Seven hours of sleep might not be enough for you, or it might not be at the right time of night, but that’s still a pretty extreme effect you’re describing. Hopefully, the new doc can get you sorted out.

      1. zora*

        Well to add another dimension to this, as a diagnosed ADHD person, I have found I need more sleep than other people, and I have seen literature saying that many ADHD people are similar.

        My minimum is 8 and I shoot for 9 as often as I can. I make myself start to get to bed by 930 on weeknights, and it makes me feel like a lame person, but it really helps me catch that bus in the morning.

        1. Autumnheart*

          Me too. ADHD and I do a lot better when I get at least 8 full hours. Since I live in the Bold North, it means being in bed when it’s still light outside, which does feel a little lame, but makes a big difference in my alertness in the morning.

          I also do a lot better if I don’t even check my various notifications until I’m at work. If I look at my devices while I’m getting ready, there’s a 100% chance of me getting sucked in and losing time that I should be using to get ready.

      2. Not So NewReader*

        Great point.
        We need energy to sleep. OP, if you are too tired to sleep, then that WILL cause you not to sleep or not sleep well.
        Mineral deficiencies can really mess with us. Even trace minerals can be important. As you ponder this you may want to try a drink with electrolytes in it.

    14. Tomacco*

      How much of that 3.5 hours is spent looking at a screen? Because I find that is a major time-suck, and even when I start out the morning ahead of schedule I can make myself late by falling into an internet rabbit-hole of cute animal videos or hiking blogs. I can get up at 6 with my alarm, get in a good workout or yoga routine, jump into the shower at 7 on the dot, and then get out and get my lunch ready and bag packed. But as soon as I take a moment to sit down on the couch, relax a little bit and open up my lap top to check the weather … internet time vortex. Suddenly it’s 8am and I still need to dry my hair, brush my teeth, get dressed, feed the cat etc. I don’t get out the door until 8:15/8:20, and by then I’m late for work.

      I’ve noticed that when my schedule changes a bit and I need to leave early to make a morning physio appointment (for example), then I know I need to hurry and I don’t bother with my phone or laptop. And wouldn’t you know it, I leave on time and get to my appointment early.

      So yes, in addition to looking into the amount of sleep your getting, or possible medical reasons that might explain fatigue in the morning, maybe consider paying attention to morning distractions like The Internet.

    15. anonymouse for this*

      Can you do anything in your morning routine such as checking email, facebook etc in a coffee shop close to your office so it’s one less thing to do before you walk out the door? And I’m guessing you’ve already done this but can you do a timeline of every thing you do from waking up to walking out the door to see where your time is going. 3.5 hrs is a long time – maybe more sleep would mean you’d need to hit the snooze button less.

    16. Cog in the Machine*

      I’ve got an alarm app on my phone that makes me do tasks in order to turn the alarm off. Like, math problems or scanning barcodes. The barcode one is great for making me get out of bed when I need to.

    17. Amethystmoon*

      I use an Alexa and set multiple alarms as reminders throughout the morning. I often wake up in the middle of the night due to chronic hives, since it’s always whenever the allergy stuff wears off, so I probably wind up getting on average 5 hours during the weeknights. I get more on the weekends. No, the 24-hour allergy stuff never works at night for me, only during the day, and yes, I’ve tried literally all the brands at the stores. You do have to yell at the Alexa to turn it off, and remember the commands, so maybe that might help.

    18. Tea Fish*

      Are you actually me from another dimension? I keep deciding that I’m going to! crack down!! on my chronic lateness, I bought a sun lamp, I plan and I prep and I keep moving my scheduled bedtime earlier, and yet… I’m always about 15-25 minutes late every morning.

      Extremely annoying and recognizable songs as alarms have helped somewhat, but not a great deal.

      Anyway, I’ll be stalking your post with interest.

    19. Not So NewReader*

      For [reasons] I had odd sleep habits years ago.
      After much over thinking I landed on a few things:

      1) Have a drop dead bed time. I go to bed at that time no matter what. I do allow myself to read mellow (non-upsetting) books in bed if I really cannot sleep.

      2) No more snooze button. That snooze button did more more harm than good. You may consider trying to find a cheap alarm clock with no snooze button. Or put the clock UNDER your bed so you have to get out of bed to hit the snooze button.

      3) I get up at the same time all seven days of the week. This was to reset my expectation. My expectation was, “oh, I wish it was the weekend so I could sleep in”, then I would hit the snooze button. I spent 5 days of the week wishing it was the weekend. Once I got a routine of getting up at the same time everyday there was no disappointment about not returning to sleep. And this also reinforced my bedtime deadline, I knew this was the time frame I had for getting my rest.

      4) I did allow myself naps on weekends. They were the best. But I still did not use anything with a snooze button for wake up time. I just eliminated the snooze option from my life.

      5) Allergies will really screw up every aspect of a person’s life. I went as far as changing to unscented laundry detergent. I rarely use fabric softener so that was not an issue. But I wanted the unscented stuff for my sheets the most. I also eliminated other allergy causing things from my life and my diet. I have also found that I sleep best on cotton or cotton blended sheets and blankets. With synthetics, I seem to be awake more or toss and turn more.

      6) This one sucks the most. I had to face my fears. And that by far was the hardest but it also gave me the biggest relief. This meant reading books or articles online about things that concerned me and impacted my life. I took each concern one at a time and tried to develop inroads to lessen the concern.

    21. Sam*

      You got lot of good advice above. I’ll just add a few time management tips.

      – Take shower the night before
      – Prep all 5 days of clothing and accessories on the weekend
      – Prep for all week day breakfasts & lunches on the weekend
      – cut screen time 2 hrs before you sleep so you get better sleep
      – restrict screen time in the morning, even better cut it off and keep it for lunch time
      – some people need 9 hrs of sleep, maybe you are one of them

      1. valentine*

        Put the week’s clothes in the front closet, piled/hung so you’re just grabbing the day’s stuff. Have your bag/jacket/shoes ready as well. Dress by the door. It’s best if you just settle on a uniform of black or charcoal pants and shoes so you’re never mismatched or searching at the last minute. If you like accessories, maybe they go in the car and you put them on when you arrive early at work.

        It sounds like you’re losing time, which is scary. Either the snoozing idea above or specific alarms may help, if you train yourself to do the thing when its alarm goes and just obey that. Maybe leave the reading for coffee time. I’m wondering if that takes longer than you think. It doesn’t make sense that you’re disciplined about that or that you always have just the right about of messages to clear in 10 minutes so early on, versus you are pressing snooze multiple times during that but have no way to know how many or you’re forgetting what time you started.

        Get a sleep study done. Provide the snoring and other stats. Keep the same schedule over the weekend so you can experiment with getting up later, to start. For a while, even if you do need a CPAP, you’ll probably need those three hours of sleep you’ve been denying yourself. And if you do need a CPAP, get twice the amount of accoutrements so you always have a clean set ready to go and it doesn’t become yet another time-stealing burden.

        1. valentine*

          Instead of a morning shower, what if you wipe down with baby wipes or disposable washcloths?

    22. Windchime*

      I am not a morning person, either, yet I find myself in a job where I have to leave the house before 5:30 AM. So this is what I do:
      –Shower at night. This won’t work for everyone, but the thought of getting wet and having to do my hair at 5 AM is just……no.
      –I shoot for being in bed by 8:30 but honestly it’s usually closer to 9. Then I read on my kindle for a few minutes.
      –No computer or social media in the morning. Zero. Otherwise, I’ll just zone out and 45 minutes has gone by in the blink of an eye
      –I get up around 4:45. Head straight to the bathroom; wash my face and touch up my hair if necessary. Put on a minimal amount of makeup, brush teeth. Get dressed (I make sure to get my clothes selected the night before). This all takes about 20-25 minutes
      –Head downstairs. Make a piece of toast and pour some OJ; I eat breakfast on the road. Throw leftovers in my lunch bag. Out the door before 5:25.

      When I started this job, I told myself: This is a choice. No whining. When the alarm goes off, I have to get up and get going. This has worked well but the key for me is to get to bed on time. It’s a lot easier to get up if I’ve got at least 8 hours in bed.

    23. AudreyParker*

      In addition to both sleep and planning stuff others have mentioned, I just wanted to comment that I’m often more likely to be late for things if I have too much time to futz around in advance. I kind of need to be going as soon as I get out of bed and not stopping to read things online, other than maybe glance at my email in case something’s on fire, and only do the things that need to happen to get me out the door. The second I allow FB or Twitter or ___ in, time loses all meaning and my early departure turns into 10 minutes late.

      Also, I have a terrible time with sleep and waking up on time in the morning, so definitely feel your pain. You may just not be sleeping enough/efficiently and might want to check out CBTi to try to get yourself on track. While it’s designed for people with insomnia, it’s really also about getting yourself on an appropriate sleep schedule and making sure you’re getting efficient sleep, which is good for anyone.

  50. PresidentNotSure*

    Hi, I am curious what others would do in my shoes. I took a job a few months back that is part time due to just having a baby. Boss knew that. The job is at a very small place and my role is highly specialized. I took the job planning to work 2-3 days a week there, but I started with 2. My boss is now pushing me to work a third day, but I am not sure if it is viable. You see, the two days already take up a great deal more than just two days, as my boss has refused to do certain things that would allow me to work efficiently, in the name of saving money. I do work at home while my baby sleeps and am feeling the stress. I have asked her to repeatedly start looking for resources and give her sources that I have used in the past, but she is reluctant to have me use them, while also pushing me to do more and work more. I don’t want to just quit, but I also I am not thrilled about all the extra labor (none of which relates to my specialty- meaning I’m trying to learn a new skillset while having a baby and working in my area). And, we discussed the need for these resources prior to my starting the job. Nearly 5 months in and she hasn’t started to work on getting the resources for me. What would you do, oh people of Ask a Manager? I don’t want to just quit, but I am struggling with how to move forward.

    1. Four lights*

      I would document and point out that you’re already working more than 16 hours (2 days) per week, and as discussed at your hiring at most you would be available for 3 days.

      Also, you could stop working from home. That could cause pushback, but it sounds like if you’re okay with quitting then maybe the threat of being fired is okay for you.

    2. WellRed*

      Stop doing work at home. She has no motivation to solve the problem if she doesn’t see the problem.

    3. Kathenus*

      In addition to Four lights suggestions, create a time budget document to illustrate what you can do now in two days with current resources, what you could do in two days with the additional resources you’ve requested, and what you could do in three days. Then ask her to let you know which one she selects – if it’s two days with current resources you’ve told her exactly what you can do, so just do that and don’t work at home or do other things to meet her goals without the resources you need to do so in a way that isn’t counterproductive to the rest of your life. If she wants more work done, then she can select either giving you the resources, or the third day. If you no longer want to work a third day as an option, then say this explicitly (and don’t include it on the time budget option).

      TL:DR – be clear what you can and can’t accomplish in certain time frames/with or without resources, get her to select one option, then stick to it.

  51. Not So Super-visor*

    I am having a crappy week: I didn’t get the promotion that I have been working towards for 4 years (last person was in it for 20+years), I had to let go an employee that I liked as a person but had profound (and well documented) performance issues, and we found out that my 15-year-old cat has cancer. Somebody please tell me something amazing that is going on in your life/work so that I can live vicariously through you!

    1. Peaches*

      I am so sorry to hear about your crappy week. I truly hope you have a relaxing and enjoyable weekend.

      My husband just got a new job with a huge salary increase (+$40k/year!) Also, I’m going to Colorado for a long weekend vacation next weekend – so excited to do some hiking and get away from the work grind for a bit!

    2. Bostonian*

      I’m sorry about your cat! My cat turned 15 this year, and I feel lucky that he’s doing as well as he is, considering he’s been living with chronic health issues for years. I hope your fur baby stays as comfortable as possible through it all and that you get lots of snuggles in.

      Having to let go someone you like that isn’t working out sounds really hard, too. Remember that letting this person go was ultimately a kind thing to do- now they can pursue something that’s a better fit.

      Um… I don’t have anything really amazing to share (sorry), but wanted to send well wishes.

    3. Nessun*

      Sympathies for your bad week. Give your cat lots of love while you can – relax with him/her this weekend!

      I can now lift 315 lbs in a rack pull, and my bench press personal best is 125 lbs – not bad for an overweight 42 year old lady. I’m a beast in the gym…and I am hella sore today from all that lifting! Best kinda sore there is.

    4. Ahmea*

      So sorry to hear about your cat, and the other things that this week brought.
      Last weekend, I sold 8 copies of my fantasy book at a major comicon, and this Saturday I am part of a local author signing at the local bookstore. So that’s my fun/awesome life events.

    5. Anon so I don't get identified*

      I got accepted to a PhD program at a great school and met with my program director and department chair this week.

      Six years ago, I worked in food service. I went back to school, worked my rear-end off, and finally made it. Nobody in my close family has an advanced degree. My dad dropped out of high school and got a GED. I’ve been trying really, really hard not to brag or humblebrag, but this is so, so not where I thought my life was going. It doesn’t even seem real.

      I hope next week goes better for you. I think I’ve been hogging all the luck this week, so I’m mentally trying to pass on my good fortune to you!

    6. Fact & Fiction*

      I’m so sorry to hear about your crappy week. :( I really hope that things get better for you soon!

      My great thing going on in my life is that I have a new book coming out soon, so I’m pretty excited about that. I’m working on revitalizing my publishing career through indie publishing since I haven’t had much luck selling more to New York yet. I haven’t given hope on that because I have an amazing agent, but at least now I don’t feel as hopeless because I’m actively writing and publishing again. The cover art for my indie books is amazing. I’m so happy with the cover artist I selected. It’s actually really nice to be able to fully control my cover art. My NY publisher was kind enough to take my opinion into consideration, but they had full control over what went on those books.

      I’m so happy that warmer temps are here again. That’s something that makes a huge difference in my overall happiness and quality of life.

    7. Salyan*

      Aw, I’m sorry.
      I moved to a new place! with a yard! a few months ago. This week was large item pickup (garbage removal) in our town, and I went hunting. Found a lovely, yellow adirondack chair on the curb – solid wood! I’ve got it set under a tall spruce tree, and am enjoying the comfortable spot to rest from sod-breaking.

    8. AccountantWendy*

      Approx 18 months ago, within 48 hours, I got fired from an office manager job and accepted an accounting job, which was a career change I had been trying to make for a long time. In my new accounting job, I’ve been thriving! My company is growing and I’ve been given new responsibilities (permanent and short-term project work). In May, I will graduate with Associate’s Degree in Accounting. Despite having a BA and a Masters, I’ve worked hardest for my Associate’s and paid for it myself, without any student loans (though I’m still paying off that Masters degree!) Sometimes I can’t believe that it’s been less than 2 years since I started this job! I turn 40 soon and I’m so happy I FINALLY found my career.

      So: you can live vicariously through me a little, know that your now-former employee might be OK in spite of themself, and that however bleak things are now, you can make a better future for yourself.

      I’m sorry about your cat. :( But you gave your fur baby the best life possible, I’m sure.

    9. square toes*

      I’m sorry about your week. Hug the kitty while you can, and there can be a next kitty, if & when you’re ready.

      My news is so much less awesome than the other people have responded (lifting! PhD program! Books sold!).
      But I think I just solved an outstanding bug, and am going to knockoff early on a friday.

    10. Not So NewReader*

      I don’t want to give too much detail but my friend was on the verge of losing her house through no fault of her own. Foreclosure papers served the whole bit. [Long story.] Today after many months of regrouping, she got her house back. She gets to keep the house and she will be fine making payments. Very seldom do I see someone bounce back like this and I am just overjoyed. (She has really good, solid help.)

      I am sorry about your promotion, your employee and your kitty. I am sending out vibes that something wonderful happens for you very soon.

  52. Nessun*

    Eugh – weight-at-work rant ahead. One of the offices in my company (not my own office, but one that several of my group work out of) has a “Biggest Loser” competition going on, and I am utterly revolted anytime I have to hear about it. Weighing in in front of a coworker?! No Thank You. Having to put money in the pot if your weight goes back up?!?! WTAF. I’ve struggled with weight all my life, and I am heavy & healthy. I cannot even comprehend what they’re doing in that office…but the last time I visited it, I had a conversation with the office manager where I mentioned my reservations (and a few generalized comments from things I’ve read and agree with on AAM), and her response was “nah, it’s just fun! People don’t have to join if they don’t want to, so it’s all good”, and I…kinda think she really missed the point? At any rate – so utterly, utterly noping out of any conversation with my colleagues where they mention this, and actively trying to control my face when I hear anyone mention it. UGH.

    1. JeremyBearimy*

      NOPE NOPE NOPE. I get the struggle of controlling your face. I think just do your best to maintain total neutrality, and change the topic as soon as possible. Once you’ve made it clear you are not ok with this, I think it’s ok to politely excuse yourself from conversations when it comes up.

    2. Former Retail Manager*

      Believe it or not, my boss (a mid 50’s male, with maybe 40-50 lbs to lose) actually suggested this and asked for my input privately before raising it with the entire group. I told him that assuming any woman, or man for that matter, wants their co-workers to know what they weigh, what they eat, how much they exercise, etc. is just bats**t crazy. Weight loss has no place at work and should remain a private issue. In his defense, he dropped it at lightning speed and never raised the issue again. I don’t think he really understood that not everyone is comfortable with their weight or comfortable discussing it or that some people have lifelong struggles attached to their weight. He just isn’t that emotionally insightful.

    3. MaureenC*

      Didn’t most of the people who were on that show gain a lot of the weight back? Like, even assuming weight loss is a net positive thing for a particular person, which is something that a person has to decide for themselves (with an OK from medical professionals), this is Bad. And that’s not even going into the psychological aspects.

      1. ..Kat..*

        Yes. They also used diet pills, extreme diets (extremely low calories), and extensively long periods of exercise. Also, I have heard reports of verbal abuse to keep the contestants doing these unhealthy things. None of it was healthy.

    4. Amethystmoon*

      Yeah, I don’t join in those and just tell them I’m on my doctor’s recommended plan, so they usually leave me alone. No, I don’t have a doctor’s recommended plan, but they don’t know that.

    5. Alice*

      I avoid things like this like the plague – but, if it’s actually optional instead of optional-but-not-really, just let the people who like it do it together. They are building a social support network for themselves. If they start discussing weight loss at you, that’s a problem. But if it’s just near you, I think that ignoring it is the best approach.

  53. matcha123*

    Someone mentioned this in the post about working in a white collar environment, but does anyone else have parents that were the first in their families to go to college, but haven’t really bridged the gap?
    My parent was the first to attend college, but the way I was raised was very “blue collar”. Respect authority. Don’t talk back. Be grateful for what you have.
    I am trying to navigate all this myself with little help from my parent.

    1. irene adler*

      Can you find a mentor (formal or informal) to offer up suggestions and advice?
      Thinking that you can find these types of folks through professional organizations in your industry.

      1. matcha123*

        I have been looking around, but haven’t found anyone. I also don’t know how to go about finding a mentor, since it seems that most people in my line of work are freelancers.
        I guess I am just more curious about the kids of 1st gen college grads and whether their parents were able to make a successful transition and if they (the kids) find themselves at complete ease in the white collar world.

        1. TL -*

          My mom is a military brat with an MBA. My dad is working class/poor rancher with a GED (though his dad had a college degree). They own their own business and are often less than helpful with the intricacies of my professional life but they’re very supportive.

    3. NACSACJACK*

      oh my gosh, this could have been written by me. Yep! Parent came from a blue collar, poor, union-based background and went into white-collar govt service where you got promoted because you passed an exam, not because you worked hard. I’m realizing more and more why what my parents told me 25 years ago didnt make sense and how messed up my career is/was. I still dont get it. I worked hard, why didnt I get that promotion. it is not in my nature to tell my boss “Yes”. I’m more what about this and this and this? And it’s not necessarily him (I have a great manager) , but his boss and other bosses I’ve had in the past. I’m buying that book.

      Keep in mind, my sister who was also raised in the same environment is a successful manager. How did she do it? She cant even quantify it for me.

      1. matcha123*

        Younger sister or older?
        I think at times younger siblings have the advantage of being able to see more examples of what not to do and figure out how to do what needs to be done to get the results they are after.

    4. Not So NewReader*

      Sounds familiar. My parents were both from blue collar families, yet they had white collar jobs. Yeah, they struggled with their misconceptions. I think their biggest hurdle was that they did not realize these ideas were misconceptions.
      I had no idea what to do and I just fumbled along.

      However, a good friend of mine told me what she did. I was so impressed. She picked out a few people that she admired and she watched what they did and how they handled things. She found reasons to be around these people such as volunteer work with them and so on. This gave her more time to observe and try to make her own version of what she saw.

      1. matcha123*

        I could see that some of the ways my parent interacted with coworkers and other white collar parents was setting them apart in a bad way. But, I had and have a hard time figuring out what I should be doing instead. It’s good that people are more forgiving of different personality types to an extent, but it’s a frustrating path to navigate!

    5. houseshape*

      YES. My mother was the first in her family to go to college. She went into an allied health field, so promotions were Not A Thing. Clock in, see your patients, clock out. I didn’t even realize how the problems I’ve had trying to figure out career stuff were related to this until I read that thread. I’m really feeling this extra hard since moving to a big city about to start my first salaried job, despite working since I was 15.

      1. matcha123*

        People assume that getting a degree from a four-year college automatically bestows this In the Know magic upon grads. And the world at large assumes that if you aren’t doing something like asking for a promotion or negotiating a raise, it’s because you don’t want to.
        Since my parent has a masters, it’s been assumed by so many people that they should know things they really have no way of knowing. That thread really had me reading almost every comment.
        I’ve been working since a young age, too. And just ugh at it all.

  54. Spunky Brewster*

    I need advice, y’all. I have no respect for my manager and the feeling is mutual. I’m job searching like mad because my department is so toxic it could be a superfund site.

    I’m about to have my performance review and it’s not going to be good. What can I do to keep my emotions in check during this meeting? My go-to reaction to news of any kind is crying. Thanks in advance!!

    1. C*

      Oh, man, I sympathize. I’m a reflex crier, too, and it sucks. If it were me, I’d probably try to desensitize myself by going through various scenarios where I picture the worst the boss could say and cry a lot in the privacy of my own home until the point and practice techniques to where I feel like I can control my reactions. Then, hopefully, the review won’t be as bad as you’d rehearsed, and you have techniques for dealing with it, and it won’t be so bad.

      Good luck on the job hunting!

      1. valentine*

        Schedule a good cry beforehand so you go in all cried out (incidentally, I might use the song “All Cried Out” to do this). Is there any discomfort you can cause that would take up so much mental space, you wouldn’t have any left to cry? Temperature? A stone in your shoe? Position?

    2. AccountantWendy*

      I was in a similar situation. Realize that this person’s opinion literally doesn’t matter. You don’t want to be in this job (you’re job searching!) so who cares whether you have a good or bad performance review! YOUR MANAGER IS NOT THE KEEPER OF YOUR SELF ESTEEM. Don’t give your power away!

      Also, if you have a job that lets you “run out for coffee” it’s totally OK to have a good cry about it afterwards. That can relieve the stress of keeping it together during the review.

    3. SpringIsForPlanting!*

      I’ve been working on receiving feedback more gracefully (for, uh, years I’ve been working on it) and I think some of the same strategies for “responding better to helpful constructive feedback” would also work for “responding better to mean feedback in toxic situation” (if that’s what you’ve got).
      1) Have a couple go-to responses ready and rehearsed. “Thank you for letting me know.” “I will think about that, thank you.” “I appreciate you sharing that.” (etc) These prevent escalation while not really committing you to anything, and for me having something to say keeps me from spiralling weirdly.
      2) Beverage. Cold water or hot tea/coffee. Holding it grounds me a bit, and if I feel emotional I can take a sip. Forces me to take a break, focus on something different, and it doesn’t look weird. Plus the liquid-going-down-throat-then-swallowing action reduces the physiological panic/cry response a bit.

    4. Farm Girl*

      I was in a similar situation, and besides taking an Ativan beforehand, my friend gave me what I thought was some good advice. Listen to what they say, don’t argue or try to justify since that doesn’t work. When you know they are done talking, stand up, say something like thank you, or you’ve given me a lot to think about, and just LEAVE. If they are done talking, you don’t have to sit there for another half hour hashing it out. It worked for me, but if others disagree listen to them. I was in such a bad spot at the time it kept me from crying in front of two people I really disliked.

    5. Not So NewReader*

      Don’t tell yourself not to cry. That almost doubles the tears right there. Tell yourself you can cry later, there will be plenty of time do that. Promise yourself something, such as an ice cream cone for the ride home. When the tears start, think about what flavor you would like. Try to figure out if you should get two scoops of the same flavor or get two different flavors.
      Okay it does not have to be ice cream. Plan something that is doable, when you feel the tears, redirect to making detailed choices about your treat for yourself later.

    6. CM*

      Remember that you don’t need to care about the opinions of people you don’t respect, and you don’t need to agree with your performance review. It’s a piece of paper that basically means nothing if you’ve already checked out of this job and are trying to leave. Just mentally prepare yourself to think, “… and I don’t like you either” in response to whatever they say, or pick something bland and generic to say in response like, “thanks for sharing your opinion” or “cool is that everything?” And get really, really ready to say that no matter what.

      The trick is to not get pulled into thinking you need to convince this person that they’re wrong about you. Again, if you’re not staying, it doesn’t matter. Let them have their wrong opinion of you and don’t pretend to agree, but don’t bother debating it either.

  55. C*

    A recruiter from a company I’ve applied to before reached out to me with a position that matched with my resume and offered to talk to me about the position. We have a call in a few hours. I have not applied for this position. Yet. Is this a phone interview on their part or more an opportunity for me to learn more about the position? Since I haven’t applied for it, I’d assumed the latter but now I’m second guessing myself. Since it’s with a recruiter, I figure I won’t be able to get into much detail on the position itself, so I have some questions about the business units mentioned in the listing and whatnot, but I’m not sure what else to ask. Any suggestions? I’m also hoping this isn’t a phone interview because I really have no idea what to ask for re: salary requirements for a sr manager level position.

    I’ve been at my current job for 16+ years so job hunting is never really a thing I’ve done. I’m a n00b at all this.

    1. irene adler*

      Since they approached you first, they are going to ask general fit questions to see if you fit the role. They will ask about some specific skills they are looking for, your interest in pursuing a new job, time frame for changing jobs, type of working environment you wish to work in, etc. And, any other directly relevant topics pertaining to the job. They might even go into the compensation package and regale you with a spiel about how Their Company is a great place to work. Idea is to see if you fit their needs and then sell you on them.

      RE: salary
      Defer this with “I don’t know enough about the job specifics to really be able to cite a salary range.” Although their inquiry might just be to ascertain whether their range lines up with your current salary level. As in: no point continuing this discussion if things are far apart here.
      Try asking for their hiring salary range after you indicate the above about not being able to cite a range at this time because you don’t know the job specifics.

      1. C*

        Thank you, this is super helpful! Salary range is weird because it’s certainly well above what I’m making now. The recruiter said it was sr manager level, and the posting indicates director level, though I’m not familiar enough with company hierarchy to know exactly what this means, I’m currently individual contributor level, so it’s be a big bump either way. One of the things I”m curious about but don’t know how to ask, actually, is why it’s a sr manager level role–the experience requirements don’t really fit with sr manager level, but that’s based on my experience in my own company, which is obviously a different animal.

        1. irene adler*

          From my experience, there’s no standard on job titles.
          Example: at my company our CFO never went to college and is not a CPA. She’s also not really doing what a CFO does. But there’s no one else in the finance dept. except for her. So she gets the title.

          You can ask them to explain their job titles like manager, sr. manager, director, etc. because you aren’t familiar with their company’s titles. And because every company IS different.

        3. C*

          The company is gigantic and I interviewed at a different division last fall (didn’t get that job, obviously), that was a manager role and their range was $100-$110K. This is a different business unit, so there may be a lot of variation, but even the manager range above would be a significant bump.

          At any rate, if it comes up, I’ll see if I can finagle a range out of the recruiter and see how it goes.

          Thanks for the info, irene & lily, I appreciate it!

    2. C*

      Update: The phone call went well, and I’ve got a first round of interviews next Friday (With the offshore team–the position takes business requirements from sr leaders onshore and works with the offshore team to develop reports to meet the requirements). I didn’t even have to come up with a cover letter! Best. Part. Ever. Irene Adler, I used your phrasing around salary and she gave the range, which was similar to the manager role from the other group I applied to, but includes a 15% bonus, so that’s a thing. The role is at the level it is because it’s working with senior leadership, and as someone who does that now as an individual contributor with challenges getting things done without proper authority, I approve of this bit of hierarchical allocation.

  56. Mimmy*

    Resume question!

    I recently got a professional certification and I’m not sure how to express it on my resume. It’s not a traditional certification that is widely recognizable, like Certified Public Accountant, so I just want to be absolutely certain I’m not misrepresenting this new qualification.

    The certificate was issued by a non-profit organization that is housed within a major university, so I had listed it like this:

    Teapot Coordinator Training Certification Program, UNIVERSITY OF WESTEROS, Oldtown, WS, March 2019*

    To be clear, it is not structured like a degree or graduate certificate program; the program requires that you earn a certain number of credits (foundation and elective) through online and in-person workshops across certain topics. I’d asked a friend who got her certification a few years ago and she put it under the education section of her resume. But…now I’m wondering if I should’ve put it in a “licenses and certifications” section instead even though the issuing provider is a university.

    A secondary (probably stupid) question: The certificate doesn’t say “Certified Teapot Coordinator” – it says “Mimmy has met the requirements for completion of the Teapot Coordinator Certification Program” with a certificate number and how long it is effective (3 years). Does this still constitute as being “certified”?

    *I am not a GoT fan so I had Google the names – apologies for any inaccuracies :)

    1. Admin of Sys*

      I think it depends partially on the industry and the certification? If the certification is necessary to do your job (notary and the like) then I’d put it in the certifications section (Assuming you have more than one thing to enter in that section). But if the point of the certification is that you want to demonstrate that you’ve taken classes on the topic, I’d put it in the education section.
      As to the second question, I’d say yes, you count as certified, unless the certification also needs something like clinical hours or to be signed off by a higher authority. There are sometimes certifications that have to be registered? Kind of how you can finish all the classes necessary to graduate but that doesn’t mean you have graduated until the college does the final paperwork.

    2. boredatwork*

      My sister is a restaurant GM and she has a ton of certifications that read just like that. I made a section at the very top called certification (with a brief description). It seemed to work, she got the job and they were impressed at the number of things she was certified in.

  57. JeremyBearimy*

    I’m looking for advice on changing industries, and how to leverage my talents to prove they can be an asset in the new industry.
    Background- I’ve been working full time for 9 years (BA/MA). For over half of it, I did sales seminars and have a ton of experience managing teams/events/sales/sales follow up. I did this full time for 3 years and part time for another 4. I also have experience in theatre- box office/marketing/PR/house management in house for a theatre department at a university, plus working in NYC for box offices and a full time job within Broadway ticket sales.
    I’ve been applying to new work for over a year. I’ve had multiple successful interviews that have gone into late stages within this field, but the jobs- which are not entry level- are either given to someone vastly underqualified (new grads) or someone similar to me (which does tell me I’m doing something right). Recently I got to the third round for a software company doing client management. I had to give a 20 minute presentation, an excel test, and met with 6+ people, and felt terrific about it. I was absolutely shocked when I didn’t get it.
    This inspired me to start looking at tech/start ups to leverage my people skills. I’m excellent with customers and clients, enjoy sales (but not lead generation), and can talk about anything I’m confident about for days. I think there’s definitely a need for communicators and people persons in this field, and I’m looking at jobs mostly titled “Client Success Manager”.
    The real question is- how do I get noticed and not immediately rejected? I haven’t found too many good examples of career change cover letters, although I have modified one of my solid AAM-ified letters to explain why I’m applying and how my skills transfer to the qualifications they are asking for. Yesterday I got a rejection only 24 hours after applying. I work very unusual hours so it’s extremely hard to get to mixers. Should I reach out to tech recruiters and get their advice? What are good websites to find start-up type jobs? How to satisfactorily answer the question of why I’m changing? Thank you!

    1. CM*

      I don’t know the answer to most of this. As far as answering the question of why you’re changing fields, I think tell the truth but maybe emphasize a) that you understand what’s different about the new field and b) that you’re motivated to stay in it. Employers probably want to know that you’re not going to change your mind later.

      Since you’re getting lots of interviews, it might be worth asking some of them for feedback, and framing it as something where you know you’re trying to get into a new field so it would help to know if you’re making mistakes or falling short in some way you didn’t anticipate.

  58. Mike C.*

    So real talk here, how many people responding in yesterday’s “Blue Collar” thread were actually raised and/or worked in a real blue collar (versus service) job versus just wanting to talk about random blue collar folks you happened across in your life?

    I really couldn’t believe the amount of stereotyping and misunderstanding folks seemed to have about the blue collar experience. Blue collar jobs aren’t all entry level jobs for instance, and the shock many had that such folks are able to conduct themselves in polite society or even make it to work on time was borderline insulting.

    1. Washi*

      Wait do service jobs not count, for the purpose of answering a question about transitioning to white collar/office jobs? As entry level factory jobs disappear, I think a lot of people end up working in retail/food industry/service jobs and still have similar challenges moving into an office job.

      1. Former Retail Manager*

        I agree and that is how I interpreted the post. In my mind “blue collar” equals jobs that aren’t in an office setting or jobs that are generally either looked down upon or considered to be “lower level” jobs.

      2. Mike C.*

        Blue collar jobs are typically jobs that involve physical/manual labor. You can have instances where service and manual labor roles blend, but working a typical retail job is not a blue collar job.

    2. MissGirl*

      I was both raised and worked blue collar until changing careers. I didn’t have the time to weigh in on it now I’m glad I didn’t. I will say we do students a big disservice by not opening them up to all avenues off employment. People tend to go into the careers they are raised around.

      My brothers are both in construction and make more money than me and have since the get-go. However, I’m a woman and the options in that world where I am are limited. It was also exhausting to have your skills constantly questioned. I had to find white collar work eventually and it took me years to figure out a career that paid decently. I bought into the hype of getting a degree, get a good paying job. That was a load of crap.

      All and all, I wish we had a better way to educate people about all of their options no matter the industry, and work was just work.

      1. Former Retail Manager*

        Totally agree about educating young people about all avenues. I was raised in a blue collar household (dad was a machinist), I am the first to go to college and have a white collar job. My daughter, who is not the strongest academically, has struggled to figure out what she wants to do. I have suggested various trades (welding, plumbing, etc.) but unfortunately she has no interest. The trades pay very well and at the end of the day, those are jobs that really are vital to our society. If all the marketing folks disappeared, so what. If all the car mechanics or the folks that keep our cities water treatment and sewage systems running disappeared, a large number of us would be up a creek.

    3. De-Archivist*

      Yeah, it felt a little icky for me at times, so I stayed out of the pool.

      My dad was well-paid, started as maintenance work in a major manufacturing plant, and eventually started working on programmable logic controllers, still in a uniform, coming home every day covered in sweat and detritus from the plant. He was extremely intelligent and hard-working, often six and seven days a week, and worked side jobs with my grandfather who worked in carpentry and contracting for extra money. He was also extremely well-mannered, as are my siblings (and hopefully myself). We certainly weren’t wealthy, but my parents owned their home and kept us fed and clothed. My mom had an office job but made way, way less than my dad.

      I think there is presently a subculture of under-educated and disenfranchised Americans that seem to revel in their crassness and a section of mass media which really enjoys pointing those people out as if they are representative of a whole group of people who just go to work, do their jobs, and go home without causing many waves. I wonder if perhaps this had really altered the public perception of what blue collar means – poor, uncouth, dumb, unskilled – when that’s really just not the case.

      1. Bostonian*

        I can relate to your post a lot. My dad was (he’s retired) a blue collar worker (truck driver) who was similarly responsible and hardworking: never called out sick and had a heart attack on the job (but didn’t know it was a heart attack and didn’t go to the ER until 2 days later).

        The truth is, he fits a lot of the stereotypes, but not all of them. He’s very intelligent- read a lot, and knows way more about history and politics than I ever will. However, I just can’t picture him ever holding down an office job: He probably wouldn’t think twice about telling a coworker to f- off, for one. And the burping/farting/inappropriate jokes… I don’t think he’d last a week.

        I think your last paragraph is really insightful. Thanks for sharing.

    4. Myrin*

      I honestly always stay away from these threads for exactly the reasons you’re talking about in your second paragraph.

      While we don’t have the “white collar – blue collar” terminology in my language and there are certain differences in how some trades are viewed culturally, the concept still applies nonetheless and I’m very firmly from a blue collar background – my family consists of miners, carpenters, and electricians (with my uncle being the lone gardener, which is actually the career path I’d have chosen, too, had I not attended university instead), has for as far back as we know, really, and that’s also the world I feel much more at home at compared to the relevant-to-my-life academia.

      However, that doesn’t mean that we’re somehow an uncouth lot who don’t know manners or don’t have a single shred of common sense, which is sadly often implied in comments on the topic.
      Now there’s certainly stuff that is legitimate – for example, I had no idea at all how scholarships for university work, heck, I didn’t even think of being on the lookout for them until I’d reached a level at university where you stumble upon them everywhere, because literally no one in my immediate environment had ever had anything to do with scholarships in their lives; contrast that with a guy I met at a conference last year whose parents were both academics and had both had scholarships when they were younger and as such were in an excellent position to give him tips and share their experience.

      That’s the kind of stuff where your background really markedly makes a difference.

      But somehow it’s often talked about like you couldn’t possibly expect someone from a blue collar background to know not to come to work in their pyjamas or something. Like. I can assure you that if someone hasn’t picked up on that by the time they’re old enough to hold a job, it’s not because of their familial background. And then I get annoyed and stay annoyed for the rest of the day so I just skip threads with that topic now.

    5. Tonya*

      It did feel a little icky. My dad owns an electrician company in a mining town. So I grew up in a very blue collar family and my dad is very successful. His people work hard and are compensated well too. Overtime on a big project can pay for a nice family vacation or vehicle down payment. He was up early and spent nights reviewing blueprints. In a blue collar town, the people I considered rich were in construction, mining etc. And when there was a downturn in the economy or a specific natural resource, the community feels it and you lose good people who move on to the next boom area.

      My husband is from a family of judges, lawyers and teachers that grew up in an urban area. I think a big difference is that if I want to save up for something, I’ll take on a second job or extra hours when hourly etc. To make extra money, I find ways to increase work. Where as my husband has never considered a second job. Not because he’s lazy but he grew up in a family with set hours and more stability.

    6. Anon. Scientist*

      Yeah, that was super frustrating. I’m in a job that fits into white collar (geologist), but I spend my days working outside with drillers (pure blue collar) and they make more money, have more certification requirements, have way more responsibility, and frankly have a much more intellectually challenging job. I just log soils!

    7. Not So NewReader*

      I am glad I did not get into that thread too much, it doesn’t sound good.

      To me, blue collar means you are working. So being late and being blue collar are mutually exclusive. You cannot keep a job if you are late. And that can be a hard black line, as in “You’re five minutes late, you’re fired.”

      I know of a big construction company here that rejects excuses such as surgery, court dates and other pressing matters as acceptable reasons for not showing for work. You choose to have surgery then you just lost your job, it’s irrelevant that the surgery was mandatory not selective. They don’t care.

      Some of these jobs are brutal, really brutal. And what you need to know to do the work blows me away.

    8. TL -*

      I was frustrated by the number of people complaining that blue collar people don’t speak up. Believe me, lots of blue collar jobs depend – and I mean that in a huge safety sense – on people speaking up to authority on the job.

      If your employees consistently don’t feel comfortable coming to you with problems, you need to think about how you’re communicating to them. Because chances are you’re unconsciously playing into a class dynamic that’s telling them this isn’t your place to speak up, just do what you’re told. Fix that and people will talk to you more.

    9. Completely new name this time*

      Stayed out of the thread.
      Father was a union steward, bright, and extraordinarily well mannered. Mom read the New Yorker and Wall Street Journal with me. We took family vacations of great length and educational value. Both were descended from (pre revolutionary war) old line families. My husbands family were snobs…had to let my mother in law know I was a Mayflower descendant, but could care less. (She cared…ha ha)
      Young family member has forgone an expensive college education to go into the trades, and will soon be running his own business. (He’s already making triple the minimum wage as a community college intern, and has no school loan debt, and has saved the money for his first downpayment on a house).
      He might wear blue jeans and work boots, but he also has the biggest heart and most common sense of any 21 year old I know. (And I manage a team of them).
      As with any area, gender, race age, and orientation…stereotypes hurt us all.

  59. SJNB*

    Anyone have advice on getting over/moving on from applying for an internal role and not even getting an interview?… Struggling with feeling upset and a bit humiliated for thinking it was worth trying (I didn’t think I would definitely get the job, I did think I’d definitely get an interview)

    1. irene adler*

      Maybe the posting was just a formality and they already had someone in mind?
      Hence, all who applied were not given a chance to interview.
      (“It’s not you-it’s them”)

    2. JeremyBearimy*

      All three internal roles I’ve applied for have gone to someone else they already had in mind, but had to post and interview out of formality. I chose not to apply for an opening in my own department because I know the managers well enough to know they are hiring outside (which is really terrible), and all of my colleagues are really upset. It’s really difficult, and I’m sorry.

    3. Aggretsuko*

      I can say from experience it’s more embarrassing to get the interview and then find out they already had someone else in the office in mind and everyone else knew this but you.

  60. Blue Anne*

    Mostly just a vent. I work at a manufacturing company. It’s mostly, but not entirely, men. The men make good noises about fighting the male dominated industry. Every few weeks we get calls from someone who wants tech support on a machine and just WILL NOT listen to the perfectly correct answer from a woman, and I have to hand the phone over to a male colleague to say exactly the same thing. The guys are always a little disgusted when that happens.

    But then, this week the president sent out an “explainer” video to management and asked us to have feedback ready for the management meeting. It’s one of those videos where the voiceover is explaining stuff while a hand draws things on a whiteboard. And oh my god. Right in the middle of it there’s a perfectly normal and realistic man standing at one of our machines. And then there’s this weird Bratz-looking mascot woman with huge boobs in a polo shirt and extremely high heels who gets drawn (badly) doing things around the factory. Spilling oil. Looking very distressed at bad tool quality. Having boobs significantly larger than her legs and an improbably huge head.

    So my feedback at the management meeting was that I was not a fan of the contrast between the normal dude and the weird barbie wearing stilettos in the factory.

    Responses I got included:

    -no one else had even noticed that, including the president’s wife (okay but I did)

    -the man was from a drawing we gave the video company, but the woman was generated from their software (I know why it happened, but it’s still a problem)

    -president thinks it’s great that the video company put in a woman in the first place, yay female representation (not when it’s a barbie)

    -those old fifties graphics are in, maybe that’s what they were trying to do (no. it wasn’t.)

    -maybe we can get them to give her work boots (only other woman in the room piped up that maybe we can get her pink work boots and a pink hard hat. the rest of the video is black ink on whiteboard.) (yeah because the shoes are the only problem)

    -there’s a cost benefit here, the video wasn’t very expensive (so as long as it’s cheap, sexism is fine?)

    After all these responses I said you know what, you asked for feedback, my feedback is that this looks like we took promotional photos around the factory with one of the guys from production and a booth babe. You guys are always saying how you support women in the industry and this doesn’t look like that’s true to me. President thanked me for my feedback.

    We sent the video to our admin (a woman) to get her take. She said she doesn’t see why the barbie even needs to be in the video. She doesn’t add anything. Just draw a woman standing next to the man in the static graphic in the middle of the screen.

    I don’t think anything is going to change. We’ll probably release it as is. Ugh. You know, having to raise issues like this isn’t what I get mad at, that’s just the toxic background of living in patriarchy. It’s guys who say how progressive and equality-minded they are pushing back with bullshit like “well, fifties graphics!”

    1. Kathenus*

      Wow! So many, many things wrong here. The video, of course. Asking for feedback and then pushing back on every single (very good and valid) point, lack of support from other females about it. Just wow.

      And I don’t know that this would fly at your org or not, but given your first point, would the company be willing to NOT have the person transferred to a male for support because they wouldn’t listen to a female? Or if they won’t do that, and the male who gets the call transferred can see your recommendations, if they have the same could they be coached to say – Blue Anne already answered all of your questions and gave the same advice I would – period?

      I’m sorry, this sounds so frustrating. Keep up with the great work trying to affect change.

      1. Blue Anne*

        Very occasionally, that actually happens. Usually if there actually happens to be an engineer or production guy in the room while we’re taking the call. We’ll very obviously say something like – “Hold on, Bob is standing here, let me check that everything I’m telling you is right. Bob, these are good with teapots up to Widget Gauge 20, as long as it’s not caustic tea? Right. Oh, you want to talk to Bob? Why, is it because he’s a man?”

        Or sometimes I’ll transfer them through to the president (small company) and say hey, this guy needs to hear all the information I just gave him in a reassuringly male voice. And then I get to listen in delight while he says that all the information I gave was correct and he can transfer the guy back to me if he needs anything else.

        But that’s really only acceptable when we’re super frustrated or the men are super egregious.

    3. MissGirl*

      Wow, it’s really hard to not throw my computer out a window right now.

      I won’t address the horribly horrible movie. But as for the first thing that you said about guys not listening to your answer. Can you enlist your coworkers in addressing that? When I worked in a male dominated field, if I guy ignored my answer my coworkers would point him back to me and say, “she’s the expert,” even when it was something we all had knowledge on.

    4. WellRed*

      Heheh. I had a hard time getting past the idea of watching a video that consists of a hand drawing on a whiteboard. Good for you for speaking out, especially when you said, “look, you asked, this is my feedback.”

    5. Lynne879*

      Screeeeeeew that. (I’d say another word, but I don’t think Alison would allow it!)

      I’m sorry you have to go through that. The patriarchy sucks.

    6. Not So NewReader*

      Take the woman out and put in a person of X race/ethnicity using all the bad stereotypes one can think of…. now do they get the idea of what is wrong here?
      Disgusting, really.

      Is this an internal video or will it be made public?

  61. Lars*

    I’m having an issue with a coworker in a different department and I think I need scripts.

    I’m an operational worker who has been put on a project with some of our technical staff. My role is entirely facilitation and admin-based – I will collect data, proof, format, all of that, but I do not have the technical ability to assist beyond that. I have been in this role for years now, and the coworker is aware of this.

    The coworker (we’ll call them Lisa) is being increasingly demanding of my time, which would be fine if the project was ramping up on my tasks. It is not. I have had some variation of this conversation every day for about a week now:

    Lisa: Jennie.
    Me (Jennie): How can I help?
    Lisa: How do I fill out [insanely technical document I have no insight into and logically would not have insight into as an operational worker]?
    Me: I don’t actually know about filling out [document].

    She doesn’t usually take “I don’t know” as an answer, and then expects me to look up answers or walk her through these documents. To be fair, when this happens, I don’t just leave it at “I don’t know”; I have said to Lisa “you need to ask your supervisor” a few times, but it is not sticking as what she should be doing.

    This is annoying, but yesterday Lisa asked me for help:

    Lisa: Jennie do you know how to format this document to do [thing I understand]?
    Me: Yeah I can help! What do you need to know?

    Without any delay, I was sent a link to an internal video share.

    Lisa: show me right now.

    I’m realizing that this is a boundary issue and I don’t know how to address it. She is also doing the same to my boss, who is MUCH higher up the ladder than both of us, and our pushback isn’t effective. I have multiple projects and being asked questions that common sense says I don’t have insight into, and being forced into a shared screen demo of a skill that I have support docs to send in situations like this, is eating into my time quite a bit. What do I say to get Lisa to understand that I can help her – in certain capacities and ways only?

    1. Me*

      Instead of I don’t know, try Sorry, can’t help. If she pushes you to find a solution for her, say that. Lisa, I can’t help with this issue, nor do I have time to look up the answer to your problem.

      1. valentine*

        I might add, “I hope it works out for you” or “I’m sure you’ll find the answer.” And if it’s possible to redirect her on large categories, I would.

        Lisa: Show me right now.
        Jennie: No need! Docs attached. Kindly don’t send me video shares.

    2. ArtK*

      “I’m sorry, that won’t be possible” is a perfectly acceptable response to her unreasonable requests. Every time you give in to her, you’re teaching her that her question to you *is* appropriate. If she gets upset because you won’t help, that’s her problem, not yours. Make *her* try to escalate and then your boss can fight the good fight.

    3. Joielle*

      I sometimes get this sort of problem (my job title is kind of vague and leads the public to believe that I know a lot more about certain things than I actually do… and I’m a lawyer, which seems to make people think I know about every type of law). For me, the biggest thing has been resisting the urge to fill a silence. So for example:

      Person: Hey, I have a question about [federal law], how does that apply to [their specific situation]?
      Me: I’m actually not familiar with [federal law], sorry! You’ll need to contact [different relevant agency] at [phone number].
      Person: [Waiting expectantly for more information]
      Me: [Smiles at them]

      Eventually, after what seems like an eternity sometimes, the person will realize that no additional information is forthcoming and they will go away or end the phone call. It feels SO awkward the first few times, but realistically it’s probably a few seconds of silence. You just have to remember that it is literally impossible for you to answer their question with the information you have, so they need to go to someone else – so by politely directing them to that other person, you have completed your end of the conversation.

      The screen share thing is a little harder, but I think you can respond with something like “Shoot, I don’t have much time right now but I’ve attached some support docs for you to try first. Let me know if you go through those and still have an issue.” If she comes back and asks you to show her, you can ask which part of the support doc she had trouble with. As long as your boss has your back on this (and it sounds like they do), you can push back pretty hard! Just remember – you’re not being rude, she is.

    4. Kathenus*

      This is such a common type of problem, and there are variations on it in AAM regularly. You can’t change Lisa, but you can change your response. As the other commenters have said, come up with a script that works for you – the ‘sorry that won’t be possible’, ‘I can’t help you’, etc. and use it EVERY TIME. You hit the nail on the head with your comment: To be fair, when this happens, I don’t just leave it at “I don’t know”

      If you don’t change your response to her, she’s going to keep asking. You need to start leaving it at “I don’t know”, consistently, or the behavior is likely to continue. Good luck.

    5. LCL*

      Your answer is in your last paragraph. If you have support documentation for her questions, start sending them to her every time she asks. Tell her to contact you if she has questions after she reads the document.

      It would help you for future interactions with her to figure out why she is doing this. Is she new? Has a new task been added that she doesn’t know how to do? Has her workload greatly increased? Has her performance dropped recently? Or does she have a history of trying to hand off the less pleasant aspects of her job to someone else?

    6. Ask a Manager* Post author

      “This isn’t something I can help you with.”

      “I can help you later today, but right now I’m on deadline with something else.”

      Repeat as necessary. The key is that you have to stick to it; if you give in, you’re teaching her that hassling you will get her what she wants.

      And at some point you may need to say: “When I tell you I don’t know or can’t help with something, you often keep pushing. I need you to respect what I say when I tell you I’m unable to help or unavailable. It’s really distracting when I’m trying to focus on something and need to convince you of that.”

      1. Grandma Mazur*

        Alison, to what extent do you feel your expertise and experience as a cat owner gives you insights into people management? I mean, what you wrote in your third paragraph could equally be applied to the problem “my cat tries to get into my bedroom at night and sometimes I let her because it’s easier than listening to her whine at 3am“…

  62. Anxiously waiting*

    How likely is an employer to let you know either way after you have reached the interview stage? I know it’s pretty common for them to not reach out to everyone that applied, but once you have been interviewed, it is a little more likely you’ll hear from them, one way or another, right? I guess that’s always been my experience, but maybe I’m wrong?
    I keep telling myself that they will tell me one way or another, and that no news is not necessarily bad news (a million things could happen on their end to slow the process down unexpectedly) but how long do I logically wait before I assume its a “no”?

    1. Not Today Satan*

      I’ve probably heard back half the time or less. It sucks. I hope you get good news.

    2. Jabes*

      I give them 100% extra time. So if they said 2 weeks, I give them an extra 2 weeks before I’d reach out.

      If they didn’t say anything, wait a month before asking.

      In terms of “how long do I logically wait before I assume its a no” – Alison would say, assume it’s a “no” right now. Move on, keep applying, keep interviewing, and “let it be a pleasant surprise” if they reach out to you.

    3. BRR*

      For me, I wait until I walk out of their office to assume it’s a no. I think the best attitude for me is the “assume you didn’t get the job and move on mentally. If you have back it’s a pleasant surprise.”

      1. CM*

        +1

        That said, I usually hear back if I do an interview but maybe 20% of the time they ghost me. I’d say, if a month has gone by and it’s not a super senior job, you’ve been ghosted.

  63. HMK*

    Hi everyone, short question here. I am job hunting and yesterday during an interview I was asked if I was was 1) Married, 2) Planned to have children, and 3) if I was rich. The last one was the most shocking but I found all three uncomfortable questions. Am I crazy for feeling this way? Are the first two questions even legal? Found out this morning I didn’t get the job, but after those questions I am not sure I would have wanted to work there anyways.

    1. Four lights*

      Not crazy; those are bananas. I think the children one may be illegal, or at the very least a bad idea for them to ask because it would be illegal to not hire you based on the answer.

      1. ArtK*

        Not illegal in the US, but certainly illegal to make any hiring decision based on the question and answer. That goes for both question #1 and #2. #3 is just bone stupid.

    2. Blue Anne*

      Whaaaaaat?

      I would be fascinated to know why they asked if you were rich. The first two are terrible things to ask, but at least pretty obvious. What kind of job was it?

      1. HMK*

        It was for an executive assistant job where there are less than 30 people. I was dressed in a simple, solid color shift dress and leopard flats as they told me to dress down if I wanted to…. I couldn’t dress down to much or it would be a signal to my current employer that something was off (current job is business suits). I usually only wear my wedding band to work to keep it understated. I parked my car around the corner, so that couldn’t influence him. Just straight up bizarre…

        For the record, we are NOT rich. We both work hard and we are comfortable, but we worked and/or saved for everything we have.

    3. irene adler*

      Wow.
      It is nice when the red flags are very conspicuous and appear early on.

      Have to wonder what they were expecting for a response to number 3.
      Do they really think I’m going to tell them I’m rich? Would they be so gauche as to ask how rich I am?

      1. HMK*

        Right?!? It was a huge invasion of privacy imo. I just answered…. “we are surviving” to give the least amount of info possible!!!

    6. Bostonian*

      US: legal to ask, but opening yourself up to risk

      In any case, totally inappropriate and ridiculous. Consider it a bullet dodged.

    7. LadyByTheLake*

      In the US, since no hiring decision can be based on marital status or plans to have children, it is inappropriate to ask those questions in an interview because the only reason for asking them is that they are being used as part of the hiring decision (which is prohibited).

    8. Not Me*

      It’s not technically illegal to ask, but it’s illegal to use the information to make a hiring decision so most don’t ask (because now that they’ve asked, you’ve got a decent shot at a lawsuit).

      I actually had a similar interview once with a dentist who obviously had no idea what he was doing. It was a much smaller role, less hours, less pay, etc. At the time I was a little burned out on corporate life and managing a dentists office seemed less stressful. He asked “This is probably a lot less money than you’re currently making? Were you just born well off? Married a rich guy or just a sugar daddy situation?” I was so shocked and taken aback I actually told him that was incredibly inappropriate and that I no longer was interested in the job, and left.

    10. Nanc*

      Unless I really, really wanted the job my response to question 3 would be to bust out a chorus of “If I Were a Rich Man” and shimmy-stomp my way out of the interview.
      Hang in there. There’s a great job with your name on it out there.

    11. iglwif*

      That is banana crackers!

      I can’t speak to whether asking those questions is legal or not, but holy cow, it is SUPER INAPPROPRIATE!

      Bullet dodged.

      1. Kat in VA*

        “I’m rich in life experiences and in love. Oh, you meant my bank account? That’s none of your damn business.”

    12. The New Wanderer*

      In the US, none of those questions are illegal but they are very ill-advised and all three together show really poor judgment on the interviewer’s part.

      A) If you’re in that situation and are likely to write off the job at that point, respond with a polite “Why do you ask?” Actually make them say out loud how they are going to use that information (which would be illegal for the 1st two) or stammer out some excuse for asking in the first place.

      B) Be glad you dodged the bullet!

      1. Just Another Manic Millie*

        I’ve been asked if I were married, and I responded, “What does that have to do with the job?” only to have the interview snap, “I wanted to explain our healthcare coverage!” And then he glared at me. And he didn’t explain the healthcare coverage. I guess that if I had said yes or no, he would have explained, “We pay this number of dollars for your healthcare coverage each month, which equals 100% of the premiums for unmarried employees, but obvioiusly less than 100% for coverage for a spouse, and much less than 100% for coverage for spouse and children.” But it’s possible he was never going to say that. It’s possible that he just wanted to know my marital status, and he said to himself, “I know what I’ll do! I’ll ask her if she’s married, and if she answers, then I’ll know. If she gives me the run-around, I’ll just pretend that I was asking only so that I can tell her about our healthcare coverage. And I won’t say a word about it! That way, she’ll know that she’s out of the running.”

    13. ..Kat..*

      I have not interviewed in a long time. That said, I think I would try to reply, “can you give me some insight as to why you are asking?” And if they continue to ask, “can you tell me why that would affect my ability to do the job?” But, I would probably be too gobsmacked to actually reply. These questions are gross.

  64. Itsaaaa me, Mario!*

    How common/acceptable is it to ask for vacation time in lieu of a merit raise?

    I’ve been at my current company for 3.5 years. I started in October of 2015, and received a raise (4%) almost immediately in December 2015. In December of 2016, I presented a case to my boss for a large raise (15%), as I had taken on a lot of new responsibilities, and done well; I was granted that raise. In December of 2017, I got a merit raise (4%), and in December 2018, I got another merit raise (4%).

    I’m not making 27% more than when I started here, and feel as though I am well-paid for my position. My husband is also very well paid (making over double what I make), so getting a raise is not really a concern for me come this December. Would it be acceptable to ask for an extra week of vacation instead of a merit raise? I only get two weeks of vacation + 16 personal/sick hours right now, which I feel is not generous at all. My husband and I are very interested in traveling before we have children, and would really benefit from me having some additional vacation time (my husband gets 6 weeks/year!)

    1. Joielle*

      I don’t think it would be problematic to ask, as long as you don’t push too hard if the answer is no. Worst case, if you get a merit raise instead of more vacation, you could see if you can take some unpaid time off to travel and keep the raise money in savings to cover for that time.

    2. Llellayena*

      It sounds like a good option. If you work some comparative math equating 4% of your salary with 4% of your time, that works out to about 2 weeks/10 days. So unless you work in a job where your absence is a serious financial hit for the company (out of proportion to your time off) it’s about a wash for the company and a bonus for you. It’s worth asking.

    3. austriak*

      I think it depends on your company. Larger companies generally have established vacation policies on how much you have by years of service. In those environments, you have no chance. If your company is not like that, they would definitely prefer giving you more vacation than paying you more.

  65. Anonymous Educator*

    I’m currently in the middle of a long-distance job search (moving in a few months). Even though I’ve done this a few times before in the past, it’s always difficult. I recently helped my boss hire within our department, and my boss wanted to look mainly at local candidates. I realize there is a huge local candidate bias, just because of convenience and also because sometimes people aren’t sure you’re really going to move.

    I’ve been mentioning in my cover letter that I’m moving and when. I only recently realized my résumé had only my current address and not that I would be relocating (sure, it’s in the cover letter, but why not put it both places?).

    Any other tips people have for searching long distance?

    1. WriterNotEditor*

      Honestly, I know Alison has said not to bother doing this in the past, but I left my address off my resume altogether when I was recently in the process of moving and didn’t mention anything about moving or relocating. I chose to format it in a way that I don’t think this looks like a suspicious omission, and I was never asked where I live. I think I made the right call, as now that I’ve been hired it turns out my company doesn’t even consider candidates that live over 20 miles away from the office! (A silly policy? Yes, but that’s neither here nor there.) I think that in today’s world, there’s really no reason a potential employer would even need your address until you were further along in the process. Seeing an out-of-state address on a resume might cause them to toss it without even reading your cover letter (which is dumb, but can happen if they’re bombarded with applications, I guess.)

      Other than that, do as Alison has said in the past and make it sound like the move is a sure thing regardless of whether you get the job. If they ask where you live, you can say “I’m in the process of relocating from ___, but I’ll be living in ___ full-time as of X date.” I think that’s really the only information a potential employer will care about.

      1. Anonymous Educator*

        I left my address off my resume altogether when I was recently in the process of moving and didn’t mention anything about moving or relocating.

        I may just start doing that. Fortunately, this time I’m not applying from out of state, but it’s still long-distance.

        make it sound like the move is a sure thing regardless of whether you get the job

        That I’ve definitely been doing.

  66. Rebecca*

    So glad it’s Friday! A big vent here: I am so sick of acronyms at my job. I know it saves time, with typing and speaking, but when there are so many you feel like you need a legend to keep track of them, it’s too much. It looks like alphabet soup most of the time (example: “You need to add the ABC note to the DEF report so the GHI team can read them”). Then let’s toss in the other upper management “fun du jour”: getting in the weeds, stretch goals, anything with team building, the whole “habits” thing, “O K R’s”, really anything to do with the big “G”, ugh – so many meetings that make little sense to me and my work life. It’s so frustrating. Wanna help me? Get me some help! Let me work more flexible hours, or work from home some days from 11 AM to 7 PM when I’m working with a lot of West coast projects instead of the rigid butts in seats where we can see you status quo. As it is, sitting through meetings about being proactive does me absolutely no good when the very nature of my job is to be reactive to numerous management people who all want something at the same time. I can plan, make lists, etc. but 99% of the time, 5 minutes into my work day, it’s all out the window. And no, I don’t care to read that habits book in my free time. You want me to read it you’ll need to pay me to read it at work.

    Rant over. Anyone else subjected to this stuff?

    1. No Tribble At All*

      I’m an engineer. We literally have an acronym dictionary. I’ve spoken sentences where the subject, object, and verb are all acronyms. I forget that “ABC” is not actually a word “ayebeesea”.

      My only problem is when I don’t know if it’s an industry-standard term (example, FOD, foreign object debris, which is basically a word and isn’t in our acronym dictionary) or a shiny new us-specific term. I try to google it and nothing comes up? It’s just an us term.

      1. Jules the 3rd*

        My employer has a bot on our instant messaging service – type in ‘whatis ABC’ and it sends back all the uses of ABC / the words behind them / the # times they’re used’ from our internal docs . The ‘# times used’ helps with industry-standard vs us-specific.

        It’s a critical tool.

        1. Lily Rowan*

          Wow, that’s really cool.

          My boss is on a crusade against acronyms, partially as a diversity and inclusion tactic — if you already feel out of place and then don’t even understand what people are talking about? Yikes. Anyway, she’s very senior and has been here a long time, and will ask anyone in any meeting what something stands for. It’s great.

          1. valentine*

            I love acronyms so much, I’ve made up my own.

            If you haven’t already, ask to work from home 11-7 and to skip the meetings because they don’t apply to you. (Bonus if the book agrees.)

    2. Nessun*

      I live acronyms every day…the programs I use, the group I work with, even the company name!! Some days I’m amazed at the conversations I have with people – “So, why is the DCD group using the PBC tool when we adapted that tool as a TORR for them from the HHC program?” is literally something I said to someone yesterday. How that actually got me an answer, I barely know – we all sound like spies, talking in code. It’s ridiculous.

    3. BRR*

      Me, which stands for my employer. A couple people are really into it and use acronyms that I think they just made up.

    4. noahwynn*

      I work for an airline, we have so many acronyms. Below is just a list I can think of in 30 seconds. I’m sure flight operations and maintenance could add even more. It is crazy the amount you have to learn, and when we get someone new to the industry I always tell them to ask away because we will use acronyms and abbreviations just like words and assume everyone knows them.
      PSS – passenger service system
      DCS – departure control system
      AIMS – airline information management system
      SRA – safety risk assessment
      ODI – operational difficulty index
      GRI – global risk index
      IEP – internal evaluation program
      IFQP – international fuel quality program
      ASAP – aviation safety action program
      ERC – event review committee
      VDRP – voluntary disclosure reporting program
      FOQA – flight operations quality assurance

      1. Rebecca*

        This I can understand: military, aviation, police (like the 10 codes), etc. But my company is just a privately held company who ships things. The entire reporting system is an alphabet soup of names, all of them have 3 letters (so far as I can tell) and it’s so confusing. Now even the work groups are getting their own acronyms! Ugh.

    5. pjm*

      Absolutely! And I thought I was the ONLY one annoyed by acronyms because it didn’t seem to bother anyone that I worked with. And I would often hesitate to ask what an acronym stood for because I would get really annoyed looks, so instead I would be lost a lot. Sometimes, the same acronym could have been used for 3 different things! Sometimes I would be trying to figure out in my brain what the acronym was for to the point where I wasn’t listening to the remainder of what was being said and I was totally confused. I can totally sympathize.

  67. Sienna*

    Has anyone here made the switch from government contractor to public sector? As in, not doing ANY contracting work whatsoever, doing purely commercial work and/or supporting just public sector clients? I’ve been trying to get out of government contracting for the past year but the only jobs I get calls for are for other government contracting jobs.

    Did anyone else make that transition?
    If so, how did you do it?
    Did you have to get more training, education, work a side job to shore up certain skills, etc?

  68. WhatAreYouThinking!?*

    I work in a very small office (4 people) and an essential part of our team just switched from full time (40hrs) to part time (24hrs) in preparation for retirement. She admits there’s no way to continue doing everything in the new timeframe but she told our boss that she’ll “see how it goes.”
    So the workload hasn’t been reorganized, and it looks like whatever she can’t do will become my responsibility. (We’re one week in and she’s already passing projects off to me.)

    My title and pay are much lower than hers (even though I’ve been helping with her overflow for years!) & I was hoping when she went part time, and I took over some of her projects (which was her original plan), I would have the opportunity to discuss that I’ve proven I can do this work and would like that to be recognized by a change in title and to be brought closer to industry standard…. but now that’s not happening… I feel stuck! What do I do?! I feel like I’m being taken advantage of…

    1. Me*

      You say that you were hoping for an opportunity to discuss but also that the title change isn’t happeining?

      I’m confused. Have you simply sat down with your boss and had a discussion about being happy to help out in transition, but it looks like your role will be shifting long term and you would like to discuss how that will affect your compensation and job title?

      1. WhatAreYouThinking!?*

        Everyone is operating as if nothing is changing.

        My co-worker has already passed stuff off to me saying “I don’t have time for this anymore.”
        But she told my boss “I think everything I have will be manageable in 24hrs so we don’t need to remove any projects from my list.”

        And it’s not in transition. I’ve already been helping with her overflow work for three years…
        So if she had overflow working 40hrs, I don’t understand why everyone is acting like she can do it all in 24hrs.

        1. Blue*

          Is your boss not aware of the projects you’re taking on? It kind of sounds like she’s only getting your coworker’s side of the story here.

    2. Kathenus*

      Everything Me said. Additionally, I’d suggest figuring out about how much time the new tasks are taking you, and suggestions for what should be removed or deprioritized from your current workload. Then meet with your boss to decide what tasks should be removed to allow for the new ones. As Alison says, do it matter-of-factly, like of course I can’t do more in the same time frame so let’s work together to agree on new priorities.

      1. WhatAreYouThinking!?*

        I’m the lowest on the ladder here, so there’s no one else to take things off my plate.
        I’ve discussed help with them about 4 months ago, and they said they would call in a temp for one week twice a year.

        1. Kathenus*

          I get that, but you don’t need to decide how the rest of the work gets done. You need to communicate openly and clearly to your boss what can get done in a workday/workweek, and what can’t. It’s their job to figure out what to do next – reduce expectations, increase resources, etc. But if you keep trying to ‘make it work’ with the additional workload your boss has no reason to find a new solution, or may not really understand that there is a problem (in spite of the past conversations), because the work keeps getting done. So I’d suggest you don’t take on the mental responsibility of worrying about how the problem gets solved, but that you do proactively and clearly communicate to your boss what’s realistic for you to accomplish. Let them take it from there.

          1. WhatAreYouThinking!?*

            I worry that there’s no way to do that without throwing my co-worker under the bus. I suppose that’s where my hang-up is.
            She told me one thing (“here’s what I’m going to have you do”), and then told our boss something else entirely (“I should be able to handle everything!”)…. and I don’t know how to address that without causing a lot of tension in the office.

            1. Me*

              It’s not throwing your coworker under the bus. In most places more senior employee can generally delegate to junior staff (and without having to ask or tell the boss). If coworker is not supposed to be doing this, then that’s on them. Including the consequences of the boss finding out. The issue is for you, and the one you are discussing with your boss, is that things are changing and you need clarification on your role moving forward.

              You are simply presenting to your boss, you have xyz on your plate which is a huge increase in your job duties. You’d like to discuss expectations and potential adjustment to duties and title and compensation. This is all very normal. Expecting your boss to realize there’s an issue when no one is saying anything is unrealistic.

              Have the conversation.

              If your goal is to avoid an uncomfortable conversation, that’s not really an option. Your tactic so far has been to take what’s rolling down the hill which isn’t working.

              1. WhatAreYouThinking!?*

                You are right that I need to present my XYZ and talk about what takes priority before it comes back to bite me that it’s not done.

                I do have to push back a little on the “that’s on them” part though, just because it’s such a small tight-knit office. I am going to make sure I clarify with my boss that I don’t want any of this to come off as vindictive, because I really don’t want to ruin a great working relationship with someone I could potentially learn so much from.

                1. zora*

                  I see what you are saying about not wanting it to feel like you are “Telling” on your coworker.

                  So, I would suggest starting with polite push back when she ‘gives’ you her work.
                  “Hm, I won’t be able to do that and also X,Y,Z that I currently have on my plate. Do you have a thought about what I should do first? Or should I ask [Boss] for priorities?”

                  If she insists you can do it all, “From experience, I know that this will take me longer than that, I won’t be able to finish all of this today. Something will have to wait, I’ll go talk to [Boss].”

                  Like we discuss a lot here, you have to then go broken record to keep your boundary on this. But you are giving her the opportunity to backpedal and fix her own problem first, plus you are being up front with her about how you are going to talk to the boss about it. That way it isn’t like you are going over her head or trying to ‘get her in trouble’ because you have told her clearly that you are asking for help from the boss.

                  Also, practice all of these lines in the mirror and with a polite, matter of fact tone. Not accusatory or frustrated and stressed out. Just a very mild, “Oh, I wont’ be able to do all of that.” period. end of story.

                  I know it is soooo hard to start boundaries like this when you haven’t for so long, but it really does help me to practice saying the words multiple times, it makes it a little easier to say them in the moment when I need to.

                2. Jerry Vandesic*

                  “Do you have a thought about what I should do first? ”

                  This is not a question for the co-worker. It is a question for the boss.

                3. valentine*

                  I am going to make sure I clarify with my boss that I don’t want any of this to come off as vindictive
                  There’s no need for this.

                  Larger discussion: I helped Christellen with projects A-Z for three years/my work went from my tasks to 80% ex-Christellen projects/market rate/promotion/title (to be done now, not contingent on Christellen leaving, in case she decides to stay).

                  Priorities discussion: Christellen has given me projects Q-Z, which I’ve slotted in among my tasks A-P as A1, Q2, S3, B4, etc. Are there any changes you’d like to see there? As she hands off more tasks, how do you see the list changing?
                  (Wait out any silence. Let it sink in and see what they say. Don’t assure them you can do it all or it’s no problem or whatever. If they want that, say you need to reassess as Christellen adds to your pile.)

                  Right now, you’re doing Christellen’s bidding and making assumptions like it’s appropriate for her to do that or you can’t say anything or manager will just tell you to do it. But put yourself and your non-Christellen tasks first, if you have any left, and then act accordingly. Worst-case is manager thinks you are on schedule to complete A1 by Wednesday, not knowing you’ve taken on four more things. Box up, to look into later, any feelings about the bus and anything else that sounds like siblings versus parent. If anyone accuses you of that, “Why wouldn’t I review priorities with manager?”

                  I hope this works out for you.

            2. BRR*

              You’re not throwing them under the bus as long as the focus is on you and your work load. Can you push back when she gives you stuff? “I’m sorry but I’m swamped. I’m not going to be able to do X.”

              1. ..Kat..*

                She has already thrown you under the bus. Stop worrying about her, take care of yourself.

        2. Jerry Vandesic*

          Then it falls on the floor. You need to discuss with your boss to determine which things fall on the floor.

  69. embarrassed strawberry without seeds*

    I’ve been having an ongoing issue with a manager who is one level above me.

    I had issues with him last year. My manager (she is his peer) did get involved (a very casual conversation, which fit the situation) and it got better and things have been OK for about a year.

    Yesterday they made a comment that really stung and brought back the flood of bad feelings..

    Individually, each comment is innocent and “joking” and/or NBD. But put together its a pattern that reads to me that they dont’ see me as an equal member of the team worthy of respect.

    This person definitely think they are superior in intelligence and competence.

    I’ve talked to my manager about this. She agrees that that manager is not treating me well and she suggested a few options:
    I talk to him directly
    the 3 of us talk together
    I go to the managers’ boss and lay out my concerns

    Usually when my manager is away, the issues pop up. she will be away for a while coming up and with the comment from last week, I apprehensive this will start up again.

    I think talking to him directly will be the best option. Here’s my issue, which I want to ask you all:

    Problem is that I get VERY emotional. She advised me that just make it a casual conversation to the side. I just do not do well with confrontation, no matter how well warranted or how “nice” the confrontation is (maybe confront is the wrong word Im using here). Like, I legit get physical symptoms (shaking, crying etc) even though I KNOW it’s not that dire. Like, someone was screaming in the office, mentioned my name (they weren’t yelling at me, and I wasn’t involved) and my heart was pounding so hard.

    1. Nichole*

      I don’t know how much this will help, but is there a way you can ‘get it out’ ahead of time? Like sometimes if I know I’m going to cry if I can make myself cry about something else (fiction can be really good for this) it makes it easier for me in the moment, because I’m already emotionally exhausted.

    2. Me*

      There’s emotional and then there’s panic attacks. I clearly cannot diagnose you with anything, but as someone with diagnosed anxiety and panic disorder, your response sounds very familiar.

      Have you considered talking to a professional about how to work to respond in a more effective manner?

    3. LaDeeDa*

      Oh goodness, it really is so much harder to stand up for yourself when you have such a strong emotional and physical reaction. I would seek out a therapist to help you. But there are a few things you can do now–
      1. You have to remember you are dealing with the ONE thing that happened right then, not the gazillion of other times he has been a jerk. It is ONE thing, right then, not all of them.
      2. Confrontation isn’t a bad thing. Confrontation often improves the situation! Think of it as improving your relationship. Redefine it in your head.
      3. If you can write yourself out a script and rehearse it out loud over and over in the car, at home, to your friends/family– until it is easy to say. “Manager Joe, when you said “jokey comment” it comes across as if you don’t think of me as a valuable member of the team.” That’s it. It doesn’t have to be a complicated sentence.

      One of the things people do who have a hard time with difficult conversations is they play out the entire scene in their head- he will say this, then I’ll say this, and then he will say this, then I will cry. DON’T DO THAT! Just rehearse your one sentence.

      Google Crucial Conversations and Critical Conversations nd read all the things that come up, there are also some free YouTube video training sessions around both books.

      This is a skill you can learn. A good professional development coach or a therapist can help you!!

      Good luck, and I hope you will give us an update!

      1. froodle*

        I just want to second this advice. I’m a frustration crier (cryer?) and what I found helpful was to Coldplay the conversation/scenario with my partner at home. Felt very weird at first but being able to play it out in a place i felt safe really helped me keep it together when it came time for the real event.

      2. TGIF*

        Seconding the recommendation for Crucial Conversations. I cannot recommend this book enough. It really changed my approach to speaking up in conflict-high situations. It literally walks you through how to prepare, what to say during the conversation, addressing rebuttals and closing. I find that Allison’s scripts match their framework very closely. They also have a blog if you don’t have time to read the book now.

        When you open your conversation, make sure you address the pattern so that he can’t brush off this ONE instance. “You’ve made similar comments during X, Y and Z instances. I’m concerned that this is affecting our working relationship when you make such “jokes”.

        If you feel the tears coming on, just excuse yourself “I shared my concerns with you hoping you could see my point of view. You’re now arguing/being dismissive/being rude, so I’m going to end this now” and then walk away.

        Good luck

    4. Qwerty*

      Maybe the option for the three of you to talk would be better? You would lead the conversation, but have your manager there are back up? I would recommend planning out the conversation ahead of time both for yourself (so you know what to say) and with your manager (so the two of you are on the same page).

      Do you have friends that you can role play with? Even if you aren’t role playing this exact scenerio, just to get you comfortable with speaking up and disagreeing. Long term, therapy would be something to consider to help with the general response to conflict.

      1. Kathenus*

        I agree that the three way conversation sounds like the best option. Your manager has already been involved once, and can choose to reference that conversation during this meeting if they choose. Plus they are there to back you up and show the other manager that they support you and what behaviors/comments need to change.

      2. embarrassed strawberry without seeds*

        I would like that. But I feel like it’d be unfair, or an ambush. I don’t know. Plus i feel like I need to develop this skill… I won’t always have manager backing me and if I want to succeed at all in the owrking world I have to be able to do tough conversations. Role play sounds like a good idea.

        1. valentine*

          You’re the party that needs protecting here. Even if it were an ambush, he earned every bit of it. Think of it like SWAT and training wheels.

          I agree with Blue below.

          I think you’re focusing too much on his reaction. If the things from last year bother you, bring them up. You may as well. This isn’t going to be a win/loss or pass/fail based on careful selection of examples or wording. I would consider it a win/progress if you can even mention the issue to him. You could also say you thought he was done with all this stuff last year, until he did the recent example.

          You’re not wrong to be upset at raised voices, especially when they include your name. If screaming is part of the culture, is this a good place for you?

    5. Blue*

      Why doesn’t your boss go back and call him out for revisiting the comments? Or speak to the managers’ boss with you? If he was your peer, I think it would make sense for you to have the conversation, but he’s not – there’s already a weird power difference there PLUS he’s a jerk to you. Maybe it’s just me, but I think that’s reason for your boss to be running interference on this.

      1. embarrassed strawberry without seeds*

        She’s willing to do that. But we both think it would go over better if I were to do it directly.

        My other hesitation is that all the examples, when I list them out, it’s like 5 examples from last year and 1 recent. Every single point I have can be explained away.

        1. CM*

          Without knowing what he’s saying, it’s hard to assess what to do, but you probably don’t need to build an iron-clad case that convinces him he’s a jerk. Probably, you need to tell him which behaviour of his isn’t working for you (which no one can argue with because you get to decide that) and ask him to do something else instead.

          Like, “Chad, I’m noticing a pattern where you get verbally aggressive with me when you disagree with my ideas, and I need us to talk to each other respectfully.” And if he goes “No I don’t” and disagrees that your examples are aggressive or whatever, redirect by emphasizing that the point is, whatever you want to call that behaviour, it’s not working for you and you’d like it to change.

          However. If Chad is being abusive toward you, rather than just rude sometimes or whatever, and if Chad doesn’t care about having a good relationship with you, or views you with contempt, you will not be able to talk him out of it. So don’t make yourself totally vulnerable with Chad. Be cautious until you suss out his intentions.

    6. Jules the 3rd*

      I sometimes find channeling all the tension into one place (eg, have a hand discretely behind me, fisted or overstretched) helps control the physical reactions elsewhere (face / crying). Have to make sure it’s not visible.

    7. The Ginger Ginger*

      Can you have the 1×1 converstaion in email instead of face to face? You can strip all the emotion out and be very clear about what you’re saying without worrying about responding in the moment or getting upset. Is that viable from what you know of this person and your office?

      1. Yoda*

        You can also ask someone to go over this email. Even better, write to Allison giving giving his comments and the scenarios and ask for her help. You’ll get great direction!

    8. Human Sloth*

      “I think talking to him directly will be the best option.” Talking to him directly doesn’t mean you need to have a conversation. Why do you have a couple of scripts ready for when he pops off? Say your script (with confidence) and walk away.

  70. Nichole*

    I’m looking at taking on an internal opportunity that would mean working with a different team. My manager is very good, and would stay the same, but he’s not involved in my day-to-day work. The new opportunity would be more challenging work, mostly because I haven’t done that kind of thing before, and it would be part of my development plan. (It wouldn’t involve a promotion/raise, but I recently received both and my level is appropriate fro the work I’m doing.)

    The teams being different is my main concern. My current team is absolutely great and I’ve learned about leadership from our current team lead. The new team consists of some people who are difficult to work with, although that difficulty is not a result of personality conflicts and more a little less organization and more ambiguity in direction/less upfront communication.

    What things should I bear in mind in this/what can I do to help my transition?

  71. Me*

    My boss is a real piece of narcissistic work. The fascinating thing it he continually finds new ways to be completely awful.

    He holds every phone call on speakerphone. With his door open. It’s like nails on a chalkboard. But today might be the day I actually lose my mind.

    Today he had a conference call on speakerphone. And then he had another conference call on his cell phone on speaker phone.

    I’m running out of coping mechanisms with this guy.

    2. Anon Karen*

      I have a colleague who does the same thing, with her office door open. Noise cancelling headphones save my sanity.

    3. Don’t care what the manager thinks*

      In the past, I have walked to their door and gently closed it! I don’t care if THEY think I am rude!

      1. valentine*

        Yeah. What happens when you close his door? Or email him to ask him to close his door?

  72. Daring Escapades*

    Question and how-to on non-profit internships

    I am a part-time coordinator between fundraising and programs. I work 20 hours a week/4 days a week. Our new development director wants to bring on an intern to help with marketing and social media. I support an intership under certain parameters.

    As I would be responsible for the intern, I expect them to bring me to 40 hours and increase my hourly wage. However I can’t work a full 40 hours in the office do to my long commute and family obligations. I can work 25 in the office and 15 from home. They knew this when they hired me (before we discussed starting an internship).

    The internship needs to be funded and the part of a coordinated education program in partnership with a local community college or workforce development program.

    What are your experiences with developing and implementing and internship program? Are my expectations unreasonable? Can you recommend resources to draft a non-profit internships.

    My background: 20 years public service and nonprofit, all roles and responsibilities from client services to executive director. I’m underemployed in this position (due to a recent relocation for husband’s job) but I like what I do and the people I work with.

    1. Lucette Kensack*

      I’m not sure I understand your question.

      Has your employer agreed to move you to 40 hours/week + hire an intern? Have they agreed to having you work remotely 15 hours/week? When you say the internship needs to be funded, do you mean that your organization will pay the intern?

      1. Daring Escapades*

        I currently work 20 hours a week in the office but if they want me to set up, manage and be responsible for an intern I expect to be full time and have an increase in my wage for the increased responsibility. They hired me at 20 but have always wanted me at 40 but they needed to raise the funds for that. And they’ve always known that I can only work 20 to 25 hours in the office and the rest would have to be from home.

        And yes I expect the intern be provided a stipend or hourly wage. I won’t be responsible or manage an intern who is doing it for free- there’s no incentive.

        1. Lucette Kensack*

          I’m still not sure what you’re asking. General advice about finding a partnering organization or recruiting an intern?

          One note: Asking to go from 20 hours/week to 40 hours/week just for managing one intern is a stretch. Managing one part-time person shouldn’t be taking 20 hours/week (especially since it sounds like the intern will take on some responsibilities that are currently on your plate).

          1. Daring Escapades*

            The intern will not be taking anything off my plate (only adding to it) as it’s work that nobody else is doing because no one has time to do it.

            My work load is 40 hours but because they only fund 20 hours I can’t add to my responsibilities if not my current requirements. So if they want this they’ll have to reprioritize the projects they want me to complete.

    2. Joielle*

      When my office started taking on interns, it was just worked in around whatever we were doing. (We’re all already working full time.) One person has taken the lead on recruiting and being the point person, but several people work with the interns on individual projects. We’ve done it through schools in the area, and the schools’ career services departments were really helpful. We don’t pay our interns but they get course credit.

      I think of intern management as more of a public service than managing an actual useful employee. They vary wildly on how much supervision they need, how much work they get done, and the quality of that work.

      I will say that I don’t really understand why you would need to double your hours (20 to 40) just to manage an intern. The way it’s done in my office, anyways, it’s maybe a couple of additional hours of work per week, just assigning projects and answering questions.

      1. Daring Escapades*

        Your questions have proven to me that I need to ask that if they want me to create, manage, and evaluate a proper internship program, as well as be able to complete my current 40 hour workload (currently slated within a 20 hour work week) they’ll need to increase my hours and my wage. And I will only do it if they pay the intern.

        1. Daring Escapades*

          The intern will not be taking anything off my plate (only adding to it) as it’s work that nobody else is doing because no one has time to do it.

    3. De-Archivist*

      I’ve been an intern and work now in an office with an intern which also deals with businesses that are looking for interns.

      To find interns (and echo another commenter) reach out to career or academic services at a local university. They’ll be able to help you reach out to people. You’ll generally want to have a job description, core responsibilities, and media through which you’ll accept applications ready to go before you reach out as the university isn’t going to set you up with a computer science program when what you really want is someone from anthropology to pack and catalog rare books. Do you want a writing sample? What genre? Graphic design sample? Simple resume and cover letter? Do you want to work with the university to ensure that the student gets course credit for this?

      If you need to go full time to do this, then that’s the first step. You need pay rate, remote schedule, and new hours cleared and ready to go. You may need to come prepared with an action plan to make your remote work and hours clear to your supervisors. Make sure your org is going to approve this. If they back out unexpectedly because you’re both not totally clear about your terms, your reputation is on the hook and it could have serious consequences for the intern later. (Some degrees require intern hours to graduate.)

      Also, you definitely shouldn’t spend 20 hours per week supervising a single intern. You’ll be teaching the intern job skills but also how normal offices work. Normal offices aren’t going to have that much one-on-one management. Treat your intern like a new employee, entry-level, who needs a little extra supervision. Plan out how many hours of training and on-boarding you’ll need. Train the intern on their core job functions. Meet with them regularly on a schedule to cover questions and concerns – maybe, maybe half-an-hour a day or at the beginning and end of the week, depending on your schedule. Set deadlines and goals for their work. If they do a good job and you have more job functions you think they can tackle later, decide how many hours of training they’ll need for it. Train them that many hours and let them go.

      Good luck. I’d love to develop roles like this. It sounds super exciting.

    4. Public Health Nerd*

      So I’ve done this work, and I want to say that how much supervision you need to do versus them being self directed depends on the level of the person desired and how long the internship is. If it’s someone doing your mass mailings as a high school student, someone is going to be needed to supervise and help with office culture. I’ve found it easiest to have them work when I’m there anyhow. Med students and grad students, many can work more independently. You could ask your local colleges what kinds of experiences their students are looking for.

      I will say that it’s pretty unusual for an intern to only be working on new/fun stuff. Most internships are a mix of grunt work and interesting independent projects.

  73. OyWithThePoodles*

    Had a 2nd round interview earlier this week for what would be an exciting next step up in my career. I did well on my end of the interview – I was well prepared (thanks AAM Community), did my research and was very excited for this possibility prior to the start of the interview. Ultimately, they decided not to move forward as I didn’t have as much experience as the team would have liked (and, quite honestly, after leaving the interview, I called my headhunter right away and told them I did not want to move forward with the process, if for some odd reason they wanted to continue with me — it was very, very clear from the moment I walked in the room that the team *did not* like me at all. Has that ever happened to anyone, where you feel very not right from the minute you walk in? It was very Mean Girls – esque in there. It was unfortunate because I really liked the hiring manager, and thought I could really learn a lot from her.) So I am not losing any sleep over it because I know I did the best I possibly could do.
    Having said that, how do you move up in your career and gain experience that you cannot get where you’re at, when you aren’t given the opportunity to do so? They were well aware that I do this role on a small scale where I am currently employed and that I have the ability and aptitude and desire to do it on a larger scale, given the chance. I don’t want to be stuck here forever with zero opportunities for growth!

    1. CupcakeCounter*

      I just had something like this but 3 out of the 4 people I talked with were fantastic but the 4th, who was also the hiring manager, really turned me off. When I called my friend who told me about the position, she was shocked as that had never been her experience with this person. I ended up having another call with her and it was still weird so I asked a question and then declared that the answer was a deal breaker for me and opted out.
      I would really talk up the small scale experience you have and if there is any way you can beef up that part of your current role (or dig in on your own) I’d go for that. I have a similar problem as the positions I’m applying for involve budget/forecasting but I have done that in ages so I am working on a lot of run rate analysis to assist with the process as well as keep my skills up to date.

      1. OyWithThePoodles*

        This would have been for a recruiting position in a big law firm. I do recruiting/onboarding/training now, but my office isn’t that big, and we typically do not have a lot of turnover. I’ve definitely made it known on my resume (that goes first in the list of things I do here) and I talk about it in cover letters (when those are asked for) and the headhunter I am working with made it clear to place I was interviewing at that this is what I wanted (and so did I, when I had my initial amazing phone interview with my potential boss and I also spoke about it in this 2nd interview).
        Any suggestions when I can’t magically make this place bigger and recruit more people?

        1. De-Archivist*

          Are you possibly over-emphasizing the smallness of your current organization and its differences between the larger places?

          Your interviewers are really concerned about how well your current skill set will meet their expectations, not whether or not the job you’re doing now is exactly like the job they have.

          Example, I used to work at a university with about 8k students. If I were looking for a job with a university with 40k students, I wouldn’t immediately start off pointing out that I had way, way less students. Instead, I would talk about all of the opportunties I’ve had to develop XYZ skills and how I can contribute to their successes.

          It’s hard to say without seeing your resume and cover letter, but I definitely encourage you to focus 99% of your verbiage on your strengths, accomplishments, and skills and <1% on your org mismatch unless someone asks about it specifically. Then, you can say something like, "yes, it is a smaller firm, but I'm looking specifically for (faster pace, more opportunity to recruit, whatever it is) that is available at larger firms like this one."

  74. SOAS*

    What are peoples thoughts on cultural clothing at work? Not necessarily religious but cultural. Link in next post.

    So, not really a problem problem, just curious about what people think. My place is casual (I’ve had pink hair in the past and Im wearing bluish lipstick today) but this is something I could never wear. (I am part of this culture, so it would not be out of ordinary kind of for me to wear these type of outfits). At most I’d be comfortable wearing a short blouse with leggings but def not the whole outfit. A few people have mentioned it to me, why don’t I wear it, and I’m like..HELL NO.

    2. Joielle*

      I think it’s super pretty and would be fine if you wanted to wear it, but it’s weird for your coworkers to bring it up! It just seems odd to say to someone “hey, why don’t you wear this specific type of outfit.” I don’t think anyone would ever say that to a white person. Kind of a microaggression, even if well-meaning. Sorry you have to deal with that weirdness!

      1. SOAS*

        I’m sorry, no it wasn’t coworkers, it was my husband LOL. He’s like it’s a multicultural city, it should e fine to wear. Im like…mmmnope. ope nope.

        1. valentine*

          Why not? It’s beautiful and they look so comfy and cool.

          I really resent WASP standards of professionalism when I see the African leaders at the UN. I would love to wear a ton of bright colors and proper comfy clothes to work.

    3. Rey*

      I think it would be perfectly fine if my coworker wore something like that, because it definitely meets our dress code. On the other hand, I’m surprised that other people have asked you why you don’t wear cultural clothing. If you don’t like wearing it or you wouldn’t be comfortable, its definitely not a requirement. You do you!

    4. LCL*

      It would be totally appropriate here if your job wasn’t one that required specific clothing. I have seen women wearing something similar. Wear what you want, as long as the job allows it. Sometimes people don’t wear cultural clothing because they get tired of all of the questions, some well meaning and some ignorant. You aren’t required to be the explainer for your culture; you may find yourself pushed into that role if you wear cultural clothing.

    5. Nanc*

      Full disclosure: I’m old. That said, back at my first Silicon Valley job in 1974ish we had lots of Indians working at my company and the majority of them, men and women, wore traditional dress most of the time. The execs would pop into suits if a client were touring that day. We also had lots of Hispanics who wore huaraches and what I would say were traditional shirts. The Filipino employees also had a specific style.
      I guess what I’m saying is growing up in the SF bay area in a very diverse neighborhood it didn’t seem odd to see folks in cultural clothing at school or at work.

    6. iglwif*

      I mean, I’ve definitely worked with people who sometimes wore salwar-kameez to work. I think you gotta know your work culture.

    7. Jaid*

      I’ve seen employees wear this at the office and I’m Federal. We’re pretty casual, too.

    8. Kotow*

      That’s absolutely gorgeous! I will say, the scarf would be noticeably long for a standard work environment; it looks like it touches the floor but assuming it’s culturally acceptable to tie it or keep it off the floor, I certainly wouldn’t say inappropriate. If someone wore it to work on an average workday I wouldn’t think anything of it.

    9. Maria*

      (hahaha, clicked the link and I’m already getting ads from that site!)

      I work in a pretty casual office and have a number of Indian/Indian-American co-workers who sometimes wear this type of outfit (especially with slightly less shiny fabric – back to the fancy/business dynamics we talked about in the comments the other day), and I certainly don’t think any less or differently of them. If you have or want those clothes and like wearing them and want somewhere to wear them to more, maybe try the office! If your reaction is more about your personal aesthetic or comfort, that takes precedence!

    10. bookartist*

      Here in the SF Bay Area, I have colleagues who wear this style on the regular.

      Also, $19!? That feels like such a deal!

    11. Lilysparrow*

      I think the long scarf is a bit much in an office setting, but the pants and tunic seem perfectly appropriate.

    12. Gumby*

      Eh, I’ve had co-workers who wear similar clothes, no big deal. But we also had someone who wore kilts who wasn’t culturally Scottish and that wasn’t a big deal either. (Several of his kilts looked traditional but some were not. Unless there is some Scottish clan (?) that has adopted camo as their plaid.) And, frankly, the majority of my co-workers at that job were in jeans and a t-shirt most days, or shorts, so we were beyond casual.

    13. EthnicGirlInNonethnicClothes*

      Nope, I wouldn’t wear any ethnic clothing to work (I’m from same culture). I prefer not to standout for clothing at work. Plus that ‘Be in Rome as Romans’ and all that.

      One time I wore a long tunic style ethnic clothing to a friend’s house and had to do an unplanned stop at Costco and I was feeling very awkward. no one batted an eyelid as I live in a very diverse area, but I was feeling weird as I’m not used to wearing cultural clothing in a non-cultural environment.

      My friend on the other hand, feels extremely comfortable getting decked in cultural glory! :) I love her! But no, it’s not for me. Even on Diwali day, we were encouraged to wear ethnic clothing, but nope! not me! Only time I wore such ethnic clothing was for a specific Gala to celebrate said culture arranged by work at an offsite place, where everyone wore similar stuff.

      1. EthnicGirlInNonethnicClothes*

        Oh! I love getting decked up in my ethnic clothing, either at my home gathering or other specific cultural gatherings outside my home! Just not for work.

    14. LDN Layabout*

      I don’t see why this would be a problem but maybe it’s location? IDK, I’ve had a decent number of female co-workers wearing salwar kameez, or just the kameez and leggings, it’s just a long tunic dress (and it’s prettier than any of the tunic dresses I can find).

    15. ..Kat..*

      This is very pretty, but I think this is clothing more appropriate for a date than work. That is, I don’t think it is too ethnic, I just don’t think this is a work outfit. Maybe if the colors were not gold on black (and definitely without the gold scarf).

    16. Reliquary*

      In academia, where I work, this would be a totally fine work outfit. Folks often wear outfits with cultural significance to them, and one of my close colleagues wears garments specifically associated with his country of origin about half the time. But of course it’s all about your own comfort level.

  75. A Working Mom*

    I’m 2 weeks away from being a stay at home mom (super excited!). I want to leave the possibility of returning to the workforce an open door for the future, maybe 2 or 3 years down the line. What do people usually put in their LinkedIn while they’re out of the workforce?

  76. Seeking Second Childhood*

    New office arrangements…new dynamics. We shifted our office in December, and we’re mixed in with a completely different group now. There is someone on the other end of the aisle who I’m kind of glad I don’t work with… Several times a day she comes hurrying down and walks right into the cubicle across from me. She huffs audibly if he’s not there – and walks in a circle looking for him. She looks into my cubicle and draws a breath like she’s going to ask me if I’ve seen him. A few times when we first moved in, that made some sense – but from where I sit I can’t see his doorway. I can see her because she passed my doorway on the way to his, but I wont’ know if he’s there. And he’s a “bring laptops to meetings” kind of guy, so I’ve been suggesting Skype for 4 months. Not to mention he’s never been in my cubicle. If he’s not in his desk or HER desk or their manager’s office at her end of the aisle, he’s just not there. Today I was curious and looked at his Skype – he’d been offline since yesterday. That is one stressed out woman.
    My old section of the building finally has its new residents. Their layout is awkward. There’s a long hallway going from my end of the building to the other — and the ends of the building work together a lot, plus that’s the way we get to the timeclock on our way to the cafeteria or back parking lot. Part way down that hallway there’s a fire door — and the new group set up a coffee pot & social area right at that door. A few times I’ve alreayd had to thread my way through pizza parties and cake celebrations. Not a big deal to me, they all just grinned or nodded and moved out of the way – but we have some grumpy fast walkers and I’m dreading a coffee collision. If I were them I’d be pushing for a cubicle wall to define their space away from the hallway.
    My new section? Well, being right under the HVAC unit for this area turns out to be a problem beyond the noise. I’ll sometimes smell smoke strongly when no one’s around – straight through from the ceiling vent. I actually hope it turns out to be maintenance & repair guys on the roof, because HR can ask them to stop smoking up there. If it’s smoke drifting up from the official outside smoking area, it’s a problem. I can’t shift my desk because I’m in the area without any smokers. I’d rather smell fresh smoke a few times a day than stale smoke on my neighbors all the time.
    A big thankyou to whoever suggested noises.online – I am playing an endless loop .WAV file on my headphones – I was able to splice in nature sounds that distract a bit from the machinery sounds and coffeeshop voices to muffle my co-workers’ office conversations. When it gets really loud I’ll try using it on Bluetooth with my 3M machinery headset… that’ll buy me an hour before my ears start hating me. I’m still hoping to find another brand that doesn’t compress my big head, but life happens and I haven’t had time to do any shopping beyond groceries.
    In other news, I’ve had to send tasks back to the manufacturing team and I’m feeling bad about it –they’re trying to push through a merge of two production facilities, one of which was….not good at documentation control. I keep receiving ECNs saying things like “Create Rev B in the system” and I have get to give them the bad news that “Rev C” has been online since 2012 and is in the regulatory database even if it wasn’t documented in ChaosFacility’s production files. I shouldn’t feel guilty though — I spent hours going through their 800-SKU task to identify conflicts …and they went ahead without referencing my work. Mfg is also changing some things in ways that I fear will draw regulatory attention – nothing life-safety, but if we get production halted for a nomenclature change I flagged for Mfg, I’m sure I’ll be called the problem. Grr.
    I’m not as much fun to read as Hellmouth… but it feels good to let it out. Now back to my salt mine.

    2. Seven hobbits are highly effective, people*

      Depending on your state, there may be rules about how far away smokers have to stand from air intakes. (In my state, there’s a law about not smoking closer than x feet to a door, openable window, or air intake vent.) I realize that it may not be something you could burn work capital on even if the current smoking area location is out of compliance, but that might be something to look into if the smoke is coming from the smoking area.

    3. JustaTech*

      Weird smells through the HVAC are one of the more bizarre distractions of office life.
      My office can randomly smell of toast (not from the kitchen, I checked), freshly mowed grass, diesel exhaust, cigarettes, and general burning.

      Sometimes there’s a logical explanation, but other times we’ve just decided it’s a ghost.

  77. Questioner*

    How long after I submitted a question should I wait to see if it’ll be answered? Do I get notified or anything or do I just need to wait and see?

    2. buttrue???*

      You can email Alison and see if she has your letter in her que. She will let you know if she’s going to use it and approximately when or whether you can post it here.

  78. MeMe'sMom*

    Recently the Evil HR Lady blog posted an answer to a reader’s question and it generated quite a heated debate in the comments section. I am wondering what everyone here thinks of the answer. I personally liked Suzanne’s answer, but some people thought she was completely off-base. Visit the Evil HR Lady.org website for the complete question and answer, but basically the question was from a manager who wanted to know if he could ask his employees to only speak English at work. The manager has a group of people who speak English only and another group that is bilingual (English/Spanish). The English-only speakers are getting uncomfortable when the Spanish speakers choose to have conversations amongst themselves in Spanish.

    1. Seeking Second Childhood*

      I don’t dare go read it — I have enough raising my blood pressure as it is. The rough count of languages in this building was once up to 13, and it is a bragging point to our executives. As many times as I may quibble with upper management, I am wholeheartedly in agreement with them on this one. The count may be well over 13 by now. I can hear the difference to know I’ve heard conversations in Spanish, French, Portuguese, and Russian… I can’t distinguish between Mandarin & Cantonese, between Urdu & Hindi & Gujarti, be sure that what I heard was Arabic, or identify an African language that I heard during last year’s World Cup match on the cafeteria TVs. I’ve also *seen* ASL more than once and I’m slowly getting a few lessons.

        1. valentine*

          The English-only speakers are getting uncomfortable
          Of course they are. Tools. Forbidding a mother tongue and insisting on a colonizing language is part of ongoing white supremacist colonization, genocide, and kyricism.

    2. Aggretsuko*

      This reminds me of a recent Brooklyn 99 episode in which Jake said he was learning Spanish in order to find out what shitty things his in-laws were saying behind his back.

    3. Windchime*

      Yeah, I think language policing is BS. My department is multi-cultural, and most of the time people speak in English. But often when social conversations crop up, people will switch to their native language. And why not? Why should two of my Russian-speaking coworkers force themselves to speak in their second language when they are having a social conversation? Softly-spoken Russian is less distracting to me (native English speaker) than a similar conversation in English would be. Business conversations are always conducted in English, so what’s the problem if two people from another country want to communicate in their native language?

      People need to stop being suspicious and paranoid.

  79. Leaving a job after less than a year*

    If you started looking less than a year after starting a job, would you address that in your cover letter? My work history before now has always been for multiple years at each company. Part of why I’m considering leaving is I work in one of the most impoverished and dangerous neighborhoods in America. I thought I could handle it, but I’m not sure if I can. If I mentioned the location and something like, “the location has caused me more stress than I anticipated”, I think all locals would be understanding, but I’m not sure if I should do it.

    1. LaDeeDa*

      I wouldn’t put it in your cover letter, they will likely ask, and just be honest… I think people can empathize with being in such an emotionally tough working environment and won’t hold it against you.

      Good luck!

      1. valentine*

        Say you’re eager to go to the new job or location because positives 1-3, not anti-negatives or escape.

    2. Lavender Clouds*

      I was in the same situation last year, and I made it a point to directly address this in interviews. I had almost no problems with this, except one lady who was pretty stuck up about it. That was fine because I was not interested in the position after a few minutes into the interview anyways based on how the interviewers were acting. I have a great job now and they were not at all concerned about me leaving my previous job somewhat quickly.

  80. Catsaber*

    Office politics, y’all. There’s some stupid politics going on at a really high level at my university, that directly affects my job and department. I’m not worried about losing my job, but it’s just the overall STUPIDITY of the politics that are annoying me. It’s basically two siblings fighting over mommy’s attention. Why can’t we all just get along???? (Like seriously, if our two departments would actually collaborate it would work out pretty well.)

    1. Zephy*

      Fellow university employee here. I feel you. My department’s basically been limping along on three legs for a year, we just got approval to hire somebody, but the VP keeps rejecting candidates that my boss was otherwise ready to hire. Nobody knows why the VP is even involved in the hiring process – there’s a whole layer of management, possibly two, between our department and his office. He and this hire would basically never need to interact beyond a polite “good morning” in passing. Nor do we know why he’s rejected everyone we’ve sent up to him for what would be the third round of interviewing for the candidate – he’s not giving anyone any feedback. FWIW, nobody that currently works in my department (including me, hired last July) had to interview with the VP.

      1. Catsaber*

        What irks me is that they all preach the messages about serving our students and doing what is best for students and community, blah blah blah, but then it’s all politics and posturing and god knows what else.

        Most of the time I really like my job and working here, but today has me bummed.

        1. Aggretsuko*

          I hear ya. I get very annoyed at this one office that just literally blocks everything because they have and want all the power. It is actively hurting people, but they HATE our office so we can’t speak up about it and I don’t know who they like that could, and if I ever said anything to anybody I’d get canned.

  81. No Tribble At All*

    On the topic of languages: I found out one of my coworkers is executing the most amazing lie. My organization, the Federation, works with a group that primarily speaks a different language (Klingon). They’re our supplier, and sometimes they make mistakes. Whenever we have meetings and ask them tough questions, the Klingons will switch from English back to Klingon to discuss among themselves. They’re a lot freer when they know there’s no Klingon-speakers on our side. Then they give the answer to us in English.

    I knew my coworker speaks Klingon. I didn’t know he’d been keeping it a secret from the Klingons so he could eavesdrop on their conversations. They’re as blatant as “Huh, we don’t know why it did that. Let’s tell them X. It could be Y, but X will be less work for us” which is incredibly useful, because then we know X is not necessarily correct. He’s been doing this for over FIVE YEARS. Keeping poker faces, not replying reflexively, not interrupting their conversation… unsurprisingly, he used to work in the classified world.

    2. Catsaber*

      Wow, 5 years is impressive! Does it help your work though? Are you able to hold the Klingons accountable for things they lie about?

      1. No Tribble At All*

        It does help! In a weird way, we’re more collaborative with them, because we know more of their thought process. For example, they might talk among themselves if something was caused by a tribble, but decide not to mention tribbles. Then later we’ll go and coincidentally ask if this is a tribble bite, and they sigh and start their analysis.

    3. LaDeeDa*

      Wow. I kinda love it, unethical, or not… I don’t know.. but it is impressive and I kinda wish I could do that.

      1. CM*

        That’s amazing! I don’t think it’s unethical at all. I guess if the Klingons ever asked directly, “Do any of you speak Klingon?” then it would be unethical to lie and say no, but it sounds like they’ve always assumed that they’re safe in their native language.

        (Also, of course my first thought is whether your worker learned Klingon on Duolingo.)

    7. Emilitron*

      I used to work in a US company with a parent company in Germany; when they were acquired they started offering business German classes to everyone in our local office. Cool! Then we got a new manager in from the parent company; when I read posts about annoying managers and loud cubicle environments he’s who I think of. I mean he was a manager so he had a real office, but my cube was right outside it, and he never closed his door when he had loud conference calls. Or when he talked to his bosses and switched to German to talk about about office politics and planned changes. He even knew that I was taking German classes, but apparently he assumed I wasn’t any good at it.

    8. Seeking Second Childhood*

      Is this an episode I missed? Or translation into Trekkie to hide your co-worker’s fantastic skills?
      Bravo either way.

  82. Forkeater*

    I’m starting a new job next week, hooray! But reviewing their pay calendar, I just realized I may not get a paycheck till June. They pay monthly, which isn’t unusual in my field, but the pay date falls in the middle of the month. I’m sure we will survive one month but I wish I’d realized this before we went ahead and got a new roof last week! I would definitely have postponed that work, which wasn’t an emergency.

    I guess I’m not looking for advice but commiseration, and here’s hoping I’m reading the calendar wrong. I emailed HR but didn’t get a response yet.

    1. Admin of Sys*

      I was concerned about that when I got hired at my current job, but was informed that they didn’t withhold the first check if you start near / at the beginning of a month. (which will be weird if I ever leave, because I’ve had 25 years of expecting that trailing paycheck to cover job changes.) So – it’s possible you’ll get the standard monthly salary in May, or they may pro-rate it to 2 weeks or something, but apparently monthly places are aware a lot of folks can’t really have that large of a gap in their pay schedule and have adjusted accordingly.

      1. Rusty Shackelford*

        I keep seeing references to “withholding” checks – are there places that actually do that? I worked at a university where you wouldn’t get your first check until the second pay period you worked there, and people often commented that the university “held onto” that check. But it was simply that they misunderstood how the university’s payroll process worked – it took that long to process your payroll. No one was holding onto your check, it just took them two weeks to get the first one to you. I.e., a pay period was March 1-15, your time card for that pay period was turned over to payroll on the 15th, and people expected a check that day, since March 15 was their first payday on the job. But that time card was processed March 16-31 and you received that check on the 31st. Are there employers that literally hold onto the money that should have been on your first check, and you don’t get it until you leave?

        2. WellRed*

          I just switched from a company that paid weekly for that week (unusual, I know), to a company that pays biweekly. I got my first check, for the first two weeks of April, at the end of the third week of April. It certainly feels like my pay has been withheld by a week if I’ve worked three weeks and only paid for two. But yeah, I get that’s how it works.

    2. zora*

      In my company, they are happy to give salary advances in situations like this. You should ask about that when you hear back from HR. Cutting one extra check for the month isn’t a ton of work, and everyone understands it’s hard to miss a paycheck.

  83. Meg*

    My boss is moving on to another job and a lot of people have been telling me that I should go for her position when it becomes available. How do I know if I’m ready for a supervisory position?

    1. WellRed*

      Can you ask your boss if she thinks you’re ready and if not ready, what you need to do to get ready? Does the idea of the supervisory position excite you for the challenges or do you dread the idea?

    2. Beta*

      Book a coffee chat or a casual meeting with your current boss – Tell him you are looking to explore career growth opportunities and would like to know the extent of work that he does everyday; Ask to job shadow him for a couple of days or sit in for important meetings that you haven’t been privy to until now.

      See if it interests you; See if you can check at least half the work he does. See if you can learn the remaining half (or whatever you don’t know) on the job… If yes, you are good to apply for that job. Express your interest to your current boss and ask him suggestions for how to apply for his role. Usually bosses who leave on good terms are often asked who they think would make a good successor…

      1. Mellow*

        Although not directed toward me, this sounds very good for a near-future goal I have, Beta. Thank you!

  84. Restructure Hellion*

    So my impossible workload will only get worse as my team now takes over a fourth (!) department. Saturday work has become mandatory. This mess is a top executive’s pet project so internal transfers are a non-starter.

    Now I’m worried that I can’t use anyone from my employer (even those who’ve left my group before the restructure) due to retaliation, and that the executive could somehow blackball us from other jobs in our industry. Should I worry?

    1. WellRed*

      I think we need more information here, but I do think, unless its a really incestuous (sorry, can’t come up with a better word) industry and your boss holds some kind of crazy power, the idea of being blackballed is vastly overstated.

  85. Sam.*

    What do you do if your boss tells you to do something you think might hurt your professional reputation? I work at a university and I recently had a professor get pretty snotty with me over email. I did nothing wrong, so when he started escalating to full-professor-being-a-jerk-to-a-staff-person, I passed it off to my boss (which is expected in that kind of situation, though I’ve rarely done it.) Instead of dealing with it, as I expected, her directive was not to reply. She felt very strongly that neither of us should give him the time of day.

    Which is all well and good but…I’m the one who looks like they’re ignoring him, not her. She’s got a dean title to throw around; I don’t. I may well have to work with him in the future, and I’m far, far more successful in my role if I foster goodwill with faculty. Starting a relationship with a professor by completely ignoring an angry email seems unwise, but so does blowing off my boss’s very explicit instructions. What would you do?

    1. Not Me*

      Did you tell your boss that? I would say to her “It’s not that I disagree with you, I’m concerned how that will appear given my title/position though. Is there some way this can come from you instead of from me?”

      When I was very new in my career I had a boss who told me to send an executive who wasn’t returning my calls an email that just said “Stop Ignoring Me” in the subject line. He said “it always works for me” and I replied “you’re the head of HR for the entire company. I’m not” So he sent an email to the guy that said “Stop Ignoring Her” :)

      2. Blue*

        I did, but I wasn’t able to be as explicit about it as I would’ve liked. I’ve let it sit for a few days, so I may revisit this with her on Monday and try to be clearer about my concern. (Also, yikes! How awkward for you.)

    2. CM*

      Is there something that the professor needs from you?

      If not, I agree with your boss — just don’t respond. You have no obligation to respond to something that’s just a rant. I don’t think not responding would damage your reputation — in fact, the faculty member might prefer not to hear back from you if it’s just about arguing or apologizing. Sometimes snotty/angry people actually appreciate it if you ignore their temper and pleasantly do your job.

      If there is something the professor needs, can you provide it? Or is your boss is telling you to actually not do your job? If it’s the latter, then I would take Not Me’s advice.

    3. LibbyG*

      Do you think the dean would be open to a different suggestion? Maybe she doesn’t realize how much relationship-maintenance you have to do to keep things humming? Perhaps she would be ok with you replying to to JerkProf as minimally as possible (“I hear your concerns. I checked with the dean, and everything happened as it was supposed to.”) and CC the dean?

      I’m on the faculty side of higher ed (just promoted to full), and I’m just astonished at how poorly some of my colleagues behave.

    4. Dankar*

      It might be good to ask if your boss is going to follow up on it in any way. I’ve had supervisors tell me to ignore angry ranting from professors, then go to the troublemaker’s dean and discuss the inappropriate behavior.

      Never received an apology (and honestly, I didn’t want one), but my supervisor wanted me to know that they were going to bat for me, even if I wasn’t involved in the process.

    5. Beta*

      Well, you gave him a day. You don’t have to email him as your boss said. Sometimes it’s better to not reply right away. But, now that the day has passed, I’d pick up the phone and call him and have a friendly chat – ‘I understand you are upset, How can I help you?’ kind of conversation.

  86. Flinty*

    Ok, this is kind of dumb, but I’m getting increasingly frustrated…I each lunch with a group of coworkers every day and one of them is driving me nuts. Pretty frequently, if someone shares a fun fact, “Catherine” will immediately say very emphatically “No. That is not true” and say something completely to the contrary, and in the face of her apparent certainty, the other person will back down. The thing is, every time it’s happened to me and I’ve gone back to double check, I’ve always been right! In fact, I think Catherine is wrong at least like 75% of the time.

    Any advice when she does this? It feels really petty to pull out my phone on the spot to check, especially if it will take a few minutes of poking around, but I’m so tired of her shutting people down so insistently when she’s not even right!

    1. Me*

      Can you approach it light hearted as “Hey looks like we have two different answers, lets check which one is correct.” Or “Hmmm, that doesn’t sound like what i remember reading, let me double check.”

      1. Blue*

        I tend to do something like this when I’m pretty certain someone is wrong. A, “Hmm, I could’ve sworn it was X. I’ll just double check,” and then look it up on my phone. Framing it as, “I’m going to check myself” not as “I’m going to check you” feels less confrontational to me. (And yes, I’ve done this even if it takes a minute and the conversation has already meandered elsewhere by the time I found an answer, but I work with nerds who like to know things, so it fits.)

    2. BadWolf*

      “Really? I thought it was the other thing. Well, now I just have to double check for my sanity.” (in a light hearted tone).

      “Hm, I thought I read what Fergus was talking about, I wonder what that was. Well, it will bug me if I don’t look it up.”

      Or a different angle
      “My nephew will love that tidbit, let me a save a link real quick.”

    3. CM*

      You should all start doing it to each other! But say something completely ridiculous to back up your “No. That is not true.” Like if someone says, “I heard the new Marvel movie is pretty good,” you could say, “No. That is not true. Studies show that 98% of audiences thought the Marvel movie was the worst movie they had ever seen.”

    4. Rusty Shackelford*

      I don’t think anything is wrong with saying “well, now I’m dying of curiosity!” and pulling out your phone, as long as you position it as “let’s clear up a statement of fact between two reasonable people” and not “I’m pretty sure you’re wrong or lying and I want to prove it.”

    5. LibbyG*

      My friend likes to quip, “If only I had some small internet-connected device with which to look it up! Oh, hey!” And then it’s a shared trivia dive.

      1. Kat in VA*

        Lol I say something similar to my kids when they ask a question (“Mom, how big can moles get?” or whatever)…

        “Oh, if only we had something that’s the equivalent of a 1980s supercomputer that fits in our pocket and can tell us ALL THE THINGS.”

        I got to haul that line out at a staff meeting when two directors got into a heated argument over whether something was X or Y.

        “Let me consult the de factor supercomputer in my hand and end this fight once and for all!”

        I did. I ended it, they shut up, and the meeting proceeded. I’m an executive assistant, and some days, my job is more like Mom™ than I care to admit.

    6. The New Wanderer*

      “Oh, huh, I really thought it was X. Do you have a source for Y?”

      That might come across as confrontational but you’re not the one who dismissively shot down something that was said and claimed the opposite. What Catherine is doing is pretty rude and I think the onus is on her to prove it, so to speak. Also it’s not petty to prove you are correct when someone contradicts you publicly like that.

      I have been the Catherine before and the things that helped me curb my tendencies were having a few people a) prove me wrong immediately and b) recommend to me that I phrase things more carefully if I disagree with someone so I’m not coming across like I’m definitely right, especially if it’s going to be embarrassing to be proven wrong! It’s totally fine to disagree with someone and all the suggestions of how to frame it are exactly what Catherine should be saying instead of a flat “No that’s wrong” in the first place.

      1. Flinty*

        I appreciate the support from everyone! I feel vindicated in my pettiness. I would make her prove her points, but a lot of times she is asserting a negative – for example I said that “Potemkin” in the phrase “Potemkin village” was a real person, and she said he is not.

        I like the suggestions of just saying that now I’m so curious I just have to look it up!

        1. WellRed*

          I’d be tempted to say, “Catherine, I think if I said the sky was blue, you’d disagree and tell me it was green.”

        2. zora*

          In a case like that where you know it’s true and she’s asserting a negative, I go with a correction but it’s about the tone. I say something like “Actually, he was a real person, I read this whole biography about him recently [etcetc]” but in a really casual tone, not making a big deal about the fact that she is wrong. And also not letting her interrupt the conversation, but continuing like she’s not talking.

          In the case where Little Miss Contrarian is really aggressive and doubles-down again with the “No It’s Not”, I go with “Hm, ok, so anyway [Complete Change of Subject]” or toss to someone else. “So, Jordan, how was your weekend?” But I don’t give in, and also don’t worry about looking it up and proving her wrong. It’s just not worth it, I do what I can to avoid that person dominating the whole darn conversatoin. Bc that’s usualy what I feel like they are going for.

          I was a young woman working in foreign policy advocacy, so I dealt with this A LOT when talking about intricate global and policy issues. And my favorite part was acting like I was so chill because I know I actually know more about this than LMC, so I don’t need to prove myself. :)

        3. Clisby*

          Potemkin was not a real person? How can anyone take her seriously?

          Next she’ll be saying Lenin, as in Leningrad, was not a real person.

  87. Embarrassed Anon*

    Y’all, I’m mortified. I’m having a plantar wart removed, and the treatment (cantharidin) is excruciatingly painful, so I’m using FMLA for the 1-2 days of recovery after each treatment. But that meant that I had to turn in an FMLA form about WARTS. “Painful ambulation after treatment.” Kill me now.

    (Also, painful ambulation is not really the point. The point is pain so intense that I can’t sleep, so I’m loopy with exhaustion and painkillers after each treatment.)

      1. Embarrassed Anon*

        Yep, I’ve had it done before. Literally the worst pain I’ve ever experienced (more than broken bones, abdominal surgery, etc.)

        1. Kat in VA*

          You guys are…not helping me reverse my decision to continue treating my now-mosaic plantar wart with OTC remedies.

          I had a foot surgery once, and that was a level 7 pain (I’ve had several neck fusions, so my pain scale is a bit skewed). I have no interest in painful ambulation on any level. It doesn’t hurt, although I imagine some day it will – it’s just very ugly.

    2. Liz*

      OUCH. in my younger days I suffered with many of these. Not fun. not at all. I wouldn’t worry too much about the paperwork since really only those who need to know will know the actual reasons.

    3. Seeking Second Childhood*

      Hated mine, it was right on a nerve bundle. For me the freeze treatment failed over many visits and the acid worked in two. But yeah…definitely not good walking after it!

    4. is it tea time?*

      yes, I’ve had this too. I’m sorry you’re going through this, and it is incredibly painful

  88. Rant: Why are Jerks always the last to get fired?*

    Everyone’s worked somewhere where someone is, as my dad would put it, a toxic locker room presence. Their negativity and general a—olery brings everyone down. And yet… they never get fired. I literally don’t think I’ve ever worked anywhere where this person has gotten fired. Even in cases where they are simultaneously incompetent or mediocre at their job, they still don’t get fired. But meanwhile, nice people who are incompetent DO get fired. WHY?! Are leaders too cowardly to address things with the mean people–and thus they never create the paper trail to fire someone?

    It’s so frustrating and so, so demoralizing.

    2. Aggretsuko*

      Hell if I know. Except mean people tend to know to kiss the asses of those above them and beat the asses of those below, so higher-ups frequently have no idea or don’t care because it doesn’t hurt THEM.

    3. Banana*

      Our toxic presence just got promoted. Especially puzzling since he’s also in the category of incompetent!

  89. Fabulous*

    I just returned to work last week after a 12-week maternity leave. In the time I was gone, our team got 2 new managers (grandboss started about 2 weeks before I left, and boss started about 2 weeks before I came back). I just found out yesterday that our team of 4 (not including B & GB) is now being cut in half! Two of my co-workers have accepted new positions within the company, and while I’m very happy for them, they were the only ones on the team who were located in my office and close to my age. Now it’s just me and Sharon, who is in her 50’s and works out of a different office. Both Boss and Grandboss are remote as well.

    Sharon has been with the company several years longer than me and is in a different/higher position than I am (think Teapot Builder vs. Teapot Designer). Before my leave I was getting so frustrated with her because she was having trouble using basic functions in computer programs (such as summing in Excel or changing the line spacing in Word), or remembering to do all the steps in a new 3-step process, and I would have to explain things on 3-4 separate occasions before she could do it successfully. Sharon normally seems like a fairly competent Teapot Builder so perhaps she was just going through some things at home that affected her work.

    I don’t know whether I should talk to my new boss about the difficulties I’d had with Sharon, or just wait and see if her issues have cleared up. Any advice?

    1. irene adler*

      Since your return to work, if Sharon continues to ask you basic “she should know this” types of questions then yes, time to let the boss know. Situation has not been remedied. Not sure if it’s your place to suggest to Sharon that she pursue some outside classes to get up to speed in Excel, Word (and other programs she asks questions about).

      If the questions have ceased since you’ve returned to work, really there’s no more issue.

  90. Anon 9*

    Question for Alison – you say not to post a question that we’ve emailed you, but how long does that hold true for? If someone submitted a question 1 month ago, 6 months ago, …ect when is it okay to make the request to crowd source some suggestions from this very helpful community? I always wondered what your preference was for this situation, as I know you receive a huge volume of questions each day. Thanks!

    3. Ask a Manager* Post author

      Ideally, wait at least a couple of weeks.

      My response time really varies — sometimes it’s really fast (within a couple of days) and sometimes it can take months, since my backlog is large and I don’t answer in order. But I know it’s not reasonable to ask you to wait longer than a few weeks, especially when a response isn’t guaranteed. (Also, if you want, you can always email me and ask if I have yours in the “about to definitely answer” queue, and I can let you know.)

  91. Loux in Canada*

    I GOT THE TRANSFER I WANTED!!! Signed my official letter of offer today. So I’ll be moving from one department in my organization to another; and with it comes an increased level and pay bump. :) Plus it’s likely I will get an actual cubicle, rather than an open-office arrangement, and it should be quieter because people will be on the phone… (It’s not a call center, but we sometimes have to call clients.)

    I start next Monday! I’m nervous. Never thought I’d make it here. I only graduated from university a year ago (I’m 22), and I’m doing shockingly well!

  92. Environmental Compliance*

    My facility has about 20 acres of unused space with no plans to use it ever…. guess who got approval to start pricing out & sourcing grants/funding to put in a wildlife/pollinator habitat?!!!

    2. Not Today Satan*

      Amazing!!! What do you plan to plant?

      You’ve probably thought of this, but I’d recommend some prominent “Don’t mow/this is a habitat” signs. I’ve hard some horror stories and my own garden has been victimized. :(

      1. Environmental Compliance*

        Yes! We’ll be getting it certified as a wildlife habitat and getting those signs up, but also it’s very sequestered – there’s nothing else by it. But definitely putting up nice big ol’ habitat signs!

        Right now, no plans as of yet, but based on the area’s soils and history, there’s probably a decently high water table. I’m thinking wet prairie. There’s already lots of milkweed onsite that we’ll preserve.

    3. Kathenus*

      That’s awesome! Probably on your radar but if you’re in the right part of the country consider including milkweed for monarch butterflies.

      1. Environmental Compliance*

        The plot already has sizable stands of milkweed. I rescued about 20 monarch caterpillars last year when we were moving a driveway on a separate area of the plant. :)

    6. Seeking Second Childhood*

      I’d love to hear more about this as it goes along. We also have a large space, and I watched with horror as the sections underneath the high power lines were gravelled by the power company in preparation for long-distance transmission lines. :(

      1. Seeking Second Childhood*

        Another thought – you may be interested in contacting local high schools and teenager programs to see if they have a group who would like to help set this up. The obvious thought is a Boy Scout going for an Eagle, slightly less obvious is a Girl Scout Senior going for her Gold Award, and that’s before getting to all the 4H, FFA, and agricultural extension programs. It could be a VERY rewarding cooperative experience for the student(s) and your company too.

        1. Environmental Compliance*

          Oh, that’s awesome!! I forgot about the Scouts projects! We work a lot with farmers, so FFA/4H would be very easily done as well. Thanks for the reminder!

        2. Environmental Compliance*

          Just got off the phone with the local Scout district – they’re very excited, and will be coordinating to see what we can work together and accomplish. :D

          1. Environmental Compliance*

            And, since all we do is based on corn, we have farmers that may be able to help, and quick contact with FFA/4H!

        3. Owler*

          I love that you mentioned Girl Scouts, FFA, and 4H. The Boy Scouts tend to have better name recognition; now that I have a daughter working on her Silver Award, I’m very aware of how little people know about the advanced Girl Scout projects.

          1. Environmental Compliance*

            I figured with 12-13 acres, there was more than enough space to go around! Plus – great publicity for my company. If I can get Scouts etc set up with all their projects prior to grant awards, I can get their projects funded too. Everybody wins!

  93. Alternative jobs for a mechanical engineer?*

    Hi! Does anyone have any suggestions for alternative careers for a mechanical engineer that don’t involve technical sales? I’ve been off work for a few years taking care of a relative with health issues, but now I’m looking for a job again. Thanks!

    1. Lepidoptera*

      Do you have a PE, and what specific degree(s) do you have? That would influence my answer.

      1. Alternative jobs for a mechanical engineer?*

        I have a BS in mechanical engineering and I’m not a PE. I don’t have the funds right now to get a masters degree.

        1. Lepidoptera*

          Product development. Construction is growing right now, so everything used to make a building: PHA, fire protection, hydronic balancing, seismic protection, etc. O&G tends to rollercoaster, but this administration has been good for it (assuming you don’t have ethical issues with that, you do you). Materials science is also big right now, particularly plastic alternatives.

    2. LCL*

      Any big water utility uses MEs. The energy industry uses many MEs. Roads/highways/bridge construction use MEs. All of those contractors you sold product to? Call them and ask if they are hiring, big contractors often do their engineering in house.

      1. Alternative jobs for a mechanical engineer?*

        Thanks for the suggestion, but I was never in technical sales. I included that because technical sales seems to be the usual suggestion for alternative to working as an ME and I would be horrible at sales.

    3. YetAnotherFed*

      Patent law or patent examining – the Patent Office (USPTO) is currently hiring entry-level patent examiners in mechanical engineering. (See USAJOBS) IP law firms may hire you as a technical expert. You are also eligible to sit for the patent agent’s exam.

    4. M. Albertine*

      My brother is an ME and does biofuel energy plant design and building. He’s on the academic side, but they partner with Big Energy to do pilot plants.

    5. Emilitron*

      Why an alternative career? What is it that you didn’t like about regular mechE jobs?

      1. Alternative jobs for a mechanical engineer?*

        I enjoyed being an ME, but I’m doubtful that anyone will hire me for a ME position since I haven’t worked in several years.

        1. Seeking Second Childhood*

          I wouldn’t give it up until you talk to someone. Contact a recruiter or three, because contract work is HUGE around here. It’s a great way to prove *to yourself* as well as potential future employers that your skills are still applicable.
          Also a lot of corporations have outsourced component work, and they can be overlooked by job searchers.
          A recruiter may know about openings at a niche vendor — think TeapotHandleToppers Inc., instead of “Universal Teapots” — before it’s spotted on a job board.

        2. is it tea time?*

          yeah, if you enjoyed being an ME look for that type of job, the basics haven’t shifted from under you. My company (we design machinery) has a ton of ME’s and they all take time off in their careers.

  94. Proud University of Porridge Graduate*

    This week was all about lucky timing for me! In two of the instances, one with our CEO and one with a VP, I was asked for data that I happened to be working with when the request came in, meaning I was able to respond to complicated requests within seconds. I ended up with company-wide kudos in both of those cases. Anyone else have awesome luck this week?

    1. The New Wanderer*

      I went to an industry conference and the first person I met (a total stranger) during a break was exactly the right person to talk to about a specific work topic and a potential future collaborator. It happened again during another break with another complete stranger and another topic I’m working on. I think that conference was attended by exactly the right people!

  95. R&D Fatigue*

    Anyone else work in a position that’s adjacent to/supportive of R&D? I’m finding myself burned out by the constant “everything is on fire” today and “last week’s work is worthless” tomorrow. This isn’t a company problem, it’s been the same thing in every job I’ve had.

    The general cycle is: my job consists of keeping chocolate, vanilla, and strawberry teapots up to date, and supporting new projects as well. We struggle to balance maintenance products with new development. Someone comes crashing in with an idea for a gasoline thermos, which anyone with half a brain knows is going nowhere, but we all have to pitch in and work OT to get it presentable–just in time for the top brass to shrug and toss it over their shoulders into the trash. Rinse and repeat.

    Is this just…how it is everywhere? How do you keep going without losing all motivation?

    1. Gumby*

      I work in R&D – we seldom get projects approved until some government entity is willing to pay us to do it. So every idea we have goes through a “who will pay for this” filter and the running around getting stuff presentable is almost always in response to a posted government contract opportunity. Except internal R&D projects which are much smaller and go through a “how will this support our other projects” filter. We’re a small company and have a very sharp focus area and I have heard very few obviously foolish ideas. (Not that I would necessarily recognize such.)

      As you might imagine this business model introduces a plethora of *other* problems.

    2. is it tea time?*

      I work in R&D, and have never seen this. My company has one goal, and we only switch focus/designs when it isn’t working. “the strawberry teapots don’t hold tea. Can we find another fruit teapot that does? What if we add rhubarb?” However, it is a start-up, so the funding model is …. very insecure. Do I have a job this summer? I don’t know.

  96. IntroverttoInfinity*

    My director and manager are planning an internal team building retreat. They are going to do Johar Window and I am really starting to get anxious. This is way out of my comfort zone and I don’t see how this is going to strengthen our team. Does anyone have any tips or tricks on how to deal with this?

    1. LaDeeDa*

      What part are you anxious about? The retreat itself, the Johari Window questions, the mapping on the window?

  97. SciDiver*

    Being between jobs is pretty awful but I’ve been working hard to stay active, spend more time on my hobbies, and visit friends/family more. Still applying to everything I can, and I got a call today for an interview! I’ve interviewed with state agencies before, but not from this state…good thing I found a full hiring guide online they circulate for hiring managers full of things candidates should and shouldn’t do. Now I just waiting to get the exact time scheduled and we’ll see how this goes in a couple weeks.

  98. My glasses are scratched*

    How small can the body text on a resume be? Am I being unreasonable when I get frustrated by having to zoom in a thousand percent on these PDFs?

    1. Admin of Sys*

      I’ve always heard anything below 10pt font is not okay, and 12pt is standard. If you can’t easily read it, then it should either be trimmed in length or expanded to a 2nd page. Making the font smaller so it fits the page requirements shows a lack of judgement and an attempt to game the system. It’s like trying to trick your highschool teacher using a larger font to get to the ‘5 page paper’ length requirement.

    2. iglwif*

      I personally would not go smaller than 11pt type, and I’d prefer 12pt. I would consider 10pt too small … but then, I am An Old and keep my Word files zoomed up to 140% XD

      Although note that it’s hard to make a bright-line rule about type sizes because how big the type looks differs by font! (For instance, type the same sentence in TNR and then in Arial, both at the same type size, and see how much bigger Arial looks.)

  99. Jan Levinson*

    Ugh. I sometimes have so much trouble biting my tongue at work when non work things come up!

    I’m from Kansas City (Any NFL fans familiar with the Tyreek Hill/Chiefs news)? If not, here’s the lowdown – it’s almost certain that he recently broke his 3-year-old son’s arm (he was also kicked off his college football team for beating up his girlfriend when she was pregnant with his son). He wasn’t charged because there was no proof that this occurred, although the DA said he “was sure a crime occured.” Anyway, yesterday, a phone conversation came out between he and his fiance (the mother of his child), where she tells Tyreek his son is “terrified” of him. He responds with “you should be terrified of me too, b—-.” In the same conversation, Tyreek’s fiance says that his son repeatedly said that “daddy broke my arm”, and she had covered for him in front of CPS. She also says in the conversation that Tyreek punches his son in the chest as a form of discipline, which he doesn’t deny.

    Anyway, this morning, a coworker of mine said in regard to the situation, “He just has an old school way of parenting. There’s nothing wrong with that, a lot of parents still use old school parenting methods, Tyreek is just taking the heat because of who he is.” …I literally cannot. The dude BROKE HIS KID’S ARM, and my coworker is trying to call that “old school parenting.” So ignorant!

    1. Me*

      I’d be the jerk who plays dumb and inquires of which era was breaking a toddler’s arm consider appropriate discipline?

    2. LaDeeDa*

      OMG that coworker’s statement is disgusting. We aren’t talking about spanking, we are talking about abuse!

    3. Emi.*

      Y I K E S. Someone once told me I should threaten to break my daughter’s wrist when she becomes a teenager and talks back to me and I was just O_O

      1. valentine*

        That’s frighteningly specific.

        I hope the tape made a prosecutor’s day and there are charges coming for both parents.

        I have never punched anyone and just cannot imagine even wanting to punch a child of any age, for any reason.

    4. iglwif*

      W H A T

      That’s horrifying. Like, both the situation itself and your coworker’s comments about it.

      I wonder, if someone broke this person’s arm at work, would they chalk it up to “old-school business interactions” …?

    5. Anonforthis*

      Wait, what?!?!?!? I’m a pretty strict parent, but I draw the line at, you know, physically abusing my children. JFC.

    6. buttrue???*

      Old school? No. Old school is a spanking. It does not involve injuries that require medical attention.

  100. nnn*

    Is there anyone out there involved in enterprise IT who could provide insight as to why my employer prevents us from changing our browser homepage in Firefox?

    I’m very happy to finally have access to Firefox at work after years of being forced to use IE only, but for some reason they’ve disabled our ability to change the browser homepage – even though we are free to do so in IE!

    It’s extra bizarre because this Firefox installation still lets me install add-ons, which surely could cause more trouble than starting my browser on the page of the corporate intranet that I actually do use rather than a page that I never use.

    Anyone have any idea what their reasoning might be?

    1. Anonymous Educator*

      It could be that your workplace is so draconian that they just want to prevent you from making such simple changes. I suspect, though, it’s incompetence/laziness on the part of your IT department. Maybe they couldn’t figure out (or didn’t have time to figure out yet) how to set a default homepage, only a forced homepage, so they settled on forced, because someone told them the homepage should be such-and-such homepage.

    2. Anonymous Educator*

      Send your IT department this link:
      https://support.mozilla.org/en-US/kb/customizing-firefox-using-autoconfig

      Or just this portion:
      defaultPref(prefName, value) – sets the default value of a preference. This is the value that a preference has when the user has not set any value or the user resets the preference. It can be permanently changed by the user.

      lockPref(prefName, value) – sets the default value of a preference and locks it. This is the most commonly used function. Locking a preference prevents a user from changing it, and in most cases, disables the UI in preferences so it is obvious to the user that the preference has been disabled.

    3. Not Today Satan*

      I don’t do IT but I do data management and thus have to work closely with IT. Hanlon’s Razor (“Never attribute to malice that which is adequately explained by stupidity”) is applicable to so much of that stuff. It’s so frustrating.

      But to answer your question, there’s no good reason for that.

      1. Anonymous Educator*

        For what it’s worth, we do set a default homepage in Firefox (our org’s website), but people are allowed to change it. I’m generally of the opinion if you can’t manage it properly, don’t manage it at all and let users do what they want, and if you don’t have a good reason to manage it (even properly), also don’t manage it at all.

    4. Sam Foster*

      General rule of them: Dumb policies in organizations are usually a response to either misunderstanding regulation or company policy or responding to someone doing something dumb.

  101. They Don’t Make Sunday*

    Instagram question for social media folks: Do you know a way to look up how many followers an account had on a date a year in the past? I want to show how much follower count grew during a past job, and I didn’t keep a record of how many followers the account had when I took over. If there’s a way to do it from inside the account, I can probably call in a favor with a former colleague. (And no, the Wayback Machine doesn’t work on Instagram pages.)

    1. Zephy*

      SocialBlade dot com appears to provide this service, but it may not work if the IG account in question isn’t/wasn’t a verified business account at the time.

    2. Anonysand*

      Aside from Zephy’s comment, not that I’ve been able to find, unfortunately. The only other way of knowing is a) taking a screenshot when you take over the account or b) using third-party tracking/management software, and even then that will only begin tracking from the day you link the account.

      I’ve never understood why it’s not an option, especially since FB bought the platform and they offer it for pages.

  102. Glen Coco*

    Can anyone give some advice on dealing with not getting a job you wanted at your current company? I found out this week that I did not get a job in a role I really wanted to move into. Because it was given to a peer I am still hearing a lot about it. I don’t know how many people actually know that I interviewed. I’m angry at myself for not doing better and sad because I don’t expect this opportunity to come up again. I am getting exhausted pretending to be happy all day. Has anybody found themselves in this situation before?

    1. Minerva McGonagall*

      I was you multiple times at my last organization. It was so frustrating to constantly hear that I was great and smart and super passionate about the organization but they’re going with the other person. Be kind to yourself, get out of the office for a walk, keep your head down if you don’t want to talk to people today, and it’s okay. I eventually stopped bothering to apply internally even when a job I was qualified came up, and focused just on external applications.

      1. Aggretsuko*

        What Minerva said. Multiple times for me took, I eventually took the hint and stopped applying internally as well.

    2. CastIrony*

      I feel you. Even though I have over five years of experience at my job, I didn’t get the chance to do it full-time because they gave the job to my grandboss’s sister, who had experience working there in the eighties and more management experience, which it doesn’t really require that I know of. I should’ve known something was up when they started working a few weeks before it was posted!

      I was bitter for a week. It’s okay to not smile. I didn’t for the first day.
      Talk about it and ask for feedback. I did so when I was rejected (with the worst migraine ever, no less).

      But most importantly, be nice to the person that got it. We’ll get through this.

  103. Kira*

    I’ve started interviewing for computer science and data science positions, and without fail every application has required a 4-6 hrs “homework assignment”. Sometimes it’s after a phone call, sometimes it’s not. I’ve tried to offer other similar work I’ve done, but get told that they want everyone to do the same assignment. I’d be okay with this if it was something that took 1-2 hrs, but not a half to full day of unpaid work. What do y’all think of this? Am I overreacting? I’m getting really frustrated at how much work and time this involves.

    2. Maya Elena*

      That’s pretty onerous, although there does appear to be an issue in that field with people describing as “data science” anything from high-level complex artificial intelligence to just-graduated-with-science-degree to Excel pivot tables.
      Is there anyone you could calibrate against regarding how long such an assignment might take someone else?

      1. Kira*

        There is ample information for them to figure out where I am on that spectrum – previous jobs, degrees, Github (which I know they look at).

        It doesn’t take me longer than it would take anyone else. When they give me the assignment they say “this will take 4-6 hrs”. How much they mean it differs by person. Sometimes if the HR person says that they’re not familiar with the work and don’t want to give the longer amount of time the data people told them. (That may sound crazy, but I know for certain instances where that’s happened).

      2. mechabear*

        Not data science, but I interviewed for software engineer positions this summer and can confirm that these exercises frequently take 3-6 hours. It’s not just you, and it is incredibly annoying.

  104. Someone Else*

    I’m going to be looking for a new gig soon and I’m hoping to avoid something I’ve encountered in multiple previous jobs. My current responsibilities frequently mean I’m interrupted constantly, or being pulled in multiple directions, or made to feel like I essentially need to be in three places at once.
    It is normal that in my type of work, you have to task switch and be able to move between projects, and keep them all straight and essentially: juggle well. However, I think what’s happening with my current job goes beyond reasonable expectations for that, and moves into dysfunction, where the interruptions are excessive, the frequency of switching is detrimental to the success of all the projects, and is a sign of larger disorganization in the company, that our processes are just plain inefficient, not the normal level of multiple things going on for this industry.
    At the same time, I realize some managers might see this and say, well that’s just the way it is and either you can handle it (or want to handle it) or you’re not a good fit. And I can also see some low performing employees experiencing what I’ll call “the normal amount” but describing it as I’ve just described. Or high performing employees (I’m considered one in my field) saying what I’m saying, and being dismissed as a complainer.

    So I guess my question is: if I hate this and am looking for a new role in the same industry, but without the “be in 3 places at once” factor, how do I screen for that? Or how do I know I’m not actually the person experiencing “normal” but thinking it’s too much (ie I’m actually a bad fit for this in general)?

    1. Dr. Anonymous*

      Talk about the interruptions as a continuum: there’s never being interrupted, to being interrupted x times per day to address urgent issues in A,B, and C, which you think comes with the job, to being cross scheduled in three meetings and you can’t go to any of them because Project D just caught on fire? Then ask what a typical day looks like in this job and how that fits in this continuum?

  105. Complaining*

    I’ve been working in training and development for the past 5 years (software support before that). A few weeks ago, I saw an opening posted for an e-learning developer and applied. The position requirements listed proficiency with Articulate Storyline. I’m familiar with Storyline but the majority of my experience has been using Lectora Inspire. Still, I figured it was worth a shot to apply.

    I heard back from the internal recruiter days after applying. They emailed me that they were interested in my background and would like to see samples of work using Articulate Storyline. I responded right away with some more background info and that I can provide samples but the samples would have been developed using Lectora Inspire. No response from the recruiter.

    Sent over my samples with an email explaining what I provided, how to access and to let me know of access for other members of the organization would be needed. No response.

    A week and a half after proving the samples, I emailed the recruiter that I was still interested in the position but would be removing access to my samples by the end of this week. And yet again no response.

    I understand that I applied to a job listing proficiency with Articulate Storyline as a requirement when my proficiency is with Lectora Inspire. If that was the make or break, I wish the recruiter had responded to tell me not to bother providing samples. Or responded to me at all. I know that there’s a few others on here who have e-learning experience. Would having experience with one authoring tool prevent me from getting a job using a different authoring tool?

    Thanks for listening to me vent!

    1. AudreyParker*

      Ugh. Not officially in e-learning, but last job was tangential and it’s something I’m interested in & exploring getting further into. I have not had a chance to officially learn any of these tools, but from what I can tell they’re all pretty similar and it would be silly to rule someone who otherwise has experience out on that technicality, although I’m sure there are people/situations out there who are like “no, it MUST be THIS one or you are useless to us.” But in general, the hiring process has so many potential roadbumps it could be a lot of things totally unrelated to the different software, including flakey people waiting to hear from other flakey/busy people, contacts being laid off… I think in general it’s more likely to be the human factors than anything else in this situation.

  106. Boop*

    I have a direct report who I manage. She is the receptionist and also handles EA duties for one of the executives. If another executive adds on an additional role of taking on EA duties for him, should that executive let me know? I have a feeling that this has happened (I don’t want to get into detail but I’m pretty confident in this feeling), but I haven’t been alerted yet. I believe that the reason behind my direct report taking on more is kind of hush-hush at the moment. I just feel like I should have been brought into this, at least to let me know.

    1. WellRed*

      Yes, because it will impact her time/availability. Much lower stakes: I had a work study student in the trade book section (the fun books) of the U bookstore. I had her tasks for the day planned. I came back from a break and the front end mgr had stolen her away to work the register, not for the first time. Let’s just say it didn’t happen again after that.

      1. Boop*

        Thanks for your input. I was still not brought in, but since I knew what was going on, I discussed it briefly with my direct report anyway. I brought it up and told her to come to me if she feels overwhelmed, etc. I may go to the executive in question because they are not a complete ass and have a chat.

        1. valentine*

          If she’s been sworn to secrecy, she’ll feel like torn and stuck.

          The exec should’ve told you, not just because chain of command and the most basic courtesy, but because the report takes the hit if you think she’s slacking or incompetent. Regardless of the outcome, you can go to your own manager and clarify assigning power. Is there some secret surprise they might be planning for you?

  107. Looking looking*

    I’m heading out to an interview in an hour. I’m freaking nervous again!! I’m having cold, sweaty and shaking hands lol. And this is the 5th interview in this job search – or maybe that’s why, and I’m nervous it wont go anywhere again. :(

  108. Public Facing Librarian*

    Calling out for help from other public facing librarians who have had challenging board members .
    To recap former friends board members have repeatedly in local press, social media, and public forums have stated failure in the part of the Public Facing Librarian.
    Have demanded written and public apologies for what they consider a failure in public programming content. They are prominent members of the local community in my very small world.

    The PFL (please forgive 3rd person) is completely supported by administration and the majority of the present Friends board but truly this has been a stressful two months.

    I would be grateful for any advice for managing this stress.

    1. WellRed*

      No advice but sympathy. What is your supposedly supportive administration and Friends board doing to shut this down or publicly back you.

      1. Public Facing Librarian*

        late coming back. They support me completely. They attend public events as witnesses and speak to me personally telling me that I have been handling the public commentary and hostile questioning with grace and a professional demeanor.
        They have sent me personal emails outlining how untrue and outrageous the claims that are being made attacking my professionalism and work.
        They have supported what I can do to respond to these attacks with funds and personnel. Not enough for the critics.
        My recent performance review was excellent.
        We believe in intellectual freedom therefore support opportunities for public commentary. We do not respond publicly in social media as a policy.
        Still I am weary of it all. I am taking off next Thurs, Friday, and Monday for a reunion of members of a previous job. I had challenges there with stakeholders but rarely was there attacks so personal and demands so outrageous.

  109. Psyche*

    What is a good response when coworkers compliment me on my awful haircut? I had a truly disastrous haircut that was fairly drastic. I feel like people think they need to compliment a drastic change in haircut but I know it looks bad and I’m going to try to get it fixed over the weekend. I feel like just saying thanks is weird when I will come in with a completely different haircut on Monday.

    2. Argh!*

      It could be that your former haircut was truly horrible! Take the compliment and don’t worry about it. Just say “thank you.”

    4. Rusty Shackelford*

      “Great haircut!”

      “Oh, thanks. I’m not that thrilled with it, and I’m going to try to get it fixed over the weekend, but I appreciate that it might not look that awful to innocent bystanders.”

    6. The New Wanderer*

      They (probably) have no idea you hate it, so they’re probably coming from a mindset that if it’s that drastic and they say nothing, you’ll assume they hate it. Sorry, I know that’s not helpful since you still have to handle the compliments.

      You could say, “Thanks! I was trying to go for a different look and I’m gonna try again this weekend.” So you’re not really ignoring their intent but redirecting a little because it’s not comfortable for you.

  110. WinethetimeKat*

    I have gotten good advice in the past. My boss is a terrible Micro manager but expects us all to know exactly what he wants and to read his mind. My question is this I came in a smart woman who spoke her mind and now I am walking n eggshells at work. I am job hunting and I have gotten some traction, But how do I deal with this until I can change it. He belittles and bullies his workers we are in tech and one of his favorite things is to make people feel stupid. His wife works with us and he makes her feel stupid regularly. How do I survive this until I can get away?

    1. Argh!*

      I work for your boss’s long-lost cousin, Pedantic Schoolmarm. I am eager to see what advice is offered here!

    2. ArtK*

      Nothing concrete, but think of it this way: His micro-managing is a reflection of who *he* is, not who *you* are. See if you can’t turn the focus off of yourself (hard, I know) and onto him. He’s a jerk. He’s a bully. You see him do these things to other people — that’s a clear sign that it’s not about you!

      I’d suggest a little time with a therapist, if you can.

  111. Femme d'Afrique*

    I’m not sure if anyone will see this, and it’s more a theoretical question than a real situation that I’ve encountered but… I read on the BBC website (link in the next post) that some companies in Sweden are being “certified as menstruation-friendly.”

    “Women are actively encouraged to tell other team members if they choose to be away from the office because of PMS and even to share their cycle dates and symptoms with other team members in advance if they feel comfortable with the idea.”

    According to one woman: colleagues are happy for her to have a lighter workload when she’s premenstrual, she says, because she’s very productive during the rest of the month.

    I honestly don’t know how to feel or even think about this. On a gut level, I think it’s a terrible idea but is that just because of some internalised misogyny? To be clear, I live in a country/region where this will NEVER happen, but how do others feel about sharing their period cycles, PMS, menstrual issues with their workmates?

    2. Anna*

      Ew I wouldn’t want to do this. I understand being friendly to the idea that people may feel ill when they have cramps, and being lenient around WFH or flexible around hours then, and being open around that, but I don’t want anyone to know when my period is like that!

      Why would I want to share my cycle dates with anyone? I also don’t have any issues whatsoever around cramping/PMS/any period symptoms (I’m not lucky, there’s another illness behind all this) so I’d be horrified if colleagues assumed I did and assumed all female colleagues did?

      1. Anna*

        To be clear, I didn’t say “ew” because periods are gross, I said “ew” because sharing any type of medical or personal details with colleagues at that level is gross.

        1. Not Me*

          Same EW from me.

          Medical information should be kept out of the workplace. I don’t want anyone making decisions about what I can and can’t handle based on how I *might* be feeling that day.

          What’s next, stomach issues? “We don’t give Tom too much work after he has pasta for lunch, but he’s very productive on days he has a burger, so it evens out”‽ ‽

          1. valentine*

            What’s next, stomach issues?
            Yes. Not having realized this new food would make me feel like passing out, I’m booking the nap room. Hold my calls.

            I think some of these responses are imaging the sharing without a culture change. Let’s let menstruation be like headaches, especially in a truly supportive culture (inclusive of all menstruating employees, not just women). If you knew your migraine schedule and your colleagues were happy to work around it, why wouldn’t you tell them you need light duties, dim lights, and dark glasses the third week of every month?

      2. A Simple Narwhal*

        Sharing cycle dates just reminds of Parks and Rec where the crudgy old councilmen track the women’s cycles and at one point Leslie gets (rightfully) angry about something and the dude pulls out a card and says hmm, I thought this wasn’t until next week. ><

    3. A Simple Narwhal*

      Um……………………..

      Yea no, I’m not sharing that info with colleagues. I’d say companies should just have good sick leave policies that allows accommodations for this without requesting details.

      I guess it could be a good thing, and in a perfect world where everyone (especially men) understood how debilitating menstrual and menstrual-adjacent things can be, sure, I guess this could work. But I mostly see this as just another thing that would be used against women. “Oh a non-menopausal woman? She’ll need more time off, just hire a dude”, etc. I mean, people can be judgy enough about if people really are sick enough, this, combined with a culture that doesn’t believe when women are in pain, just seems ripe for abuse (against people who use it, not people abusing the system).

      Maybe Sweden is a better place that doesn’t do this, but I can’t imagine this ever working well in the country/region I work in. (Which is a shame.)

      1. Femme d'Afrique*

        See that is how I was looking at it too, and I agree with the woman who says that her period isn’t her boss’ business. I mean, in the story there’s already one man saying it’ll just give women “carte blanche’ to act bad and you can blame your menstruation,” but the REALLY confusing part is that he uses a somewhat feminist argument – “that suggesting women might need special treatment dredges up old anti-feminist arguments that men and women aren’t equal because “female bodies can’t be trusted to work properly for the whole month” – that I actually agree with!

    4. Lepidoptera*

      O_O

      I can only imagine how women suppressing their cycles via pharmacology would handle such a thing. Would that lead to constant pregnancy rumors?

      1. Femme d'Afrique*

        And all those women who’d had hysterectomies. So many things could (inadvertently) go wrong with this.

      2. Lilysparrow*

        Or women who just don’t need or want a day off because they have normal, non-debilitating cycles most of the time.

    5. Catleesi*

      I would be super uncomfortable with this. I mean I do think that if someone is experiencing a lot of pain and difficulty related to menstruation that should be accommodated like any other ailment, but encouraging sharing of details is super weird. Just because something is natural doesn’t mean it needs to be shared with everyone. I have no desire to know any details about the bodily functions of my coworkers and it’s not info I want them to have about me either.

      1. Femme d'Afrique*

        When I got to this part:
        “In Stockholm, a PR agency A Perfect Day Media grabbed headlines after mulling the idea of giving female staff the chance to enter their cycle dates in a shared spreadsheet.”

        You should have seen my face. I’m not doing that. Just

        No.

    6. Nicki Name*

      Hard nope!

      I know there are are women who have such painful PMS that it causes real disability when it’s happening, but if I had that, I’d still want to handle it as a typical medical accomodation and just tell any nosy co-workers that I have a condition that flares up from time to time.

    7. Environmental Compliance*

      I 100% shared some basic details when I was having surgery to remove endometriosis growths because of how bad the pain was. My female colleagues and I had a good commiseration session. But – on a monthly basis? Sharing that kind of detail? Hard no.

      It’s the same level of overshare for any medical condition, IMO. I’m totally okay with sharing “ugh, cramps suck” or “ugh, I should not have eaten that much pizza”, but cycle dates, symptom updates….that’s too much medical information to share with coworkers. Much, much more beneficial to have flexible policies and good sick leave.

      Also, I no longer have periods because of medical issues. The last thing I want to discuss with just any ol’ person is why I’m not contributing to the Monthly Flow Roundtable Discussion.

    8. Asenath*

      Not a chance that I’d do anything like that even if I were still having periods. If menstruation is so painful as to interfere with daily functioning (which can happen), it should be treated like any other medical condition with appropriate time off to see doctors or recover. For normal menstruation, special consideration isn’t needed.

      The whole approach has echoes of the time when some women were treated as fragile helpless being who were incapacitated once a month while others scrubbed floors or worked in factories or mines regardless of the time of month.

      1. Femme d'Afrique*

        That’s the thing. And what’s making it so difficult for me to process is that, on the face of it, it looks like a really positive, pro-woman initiative BUT I can also see how it feeds into a really retrogressive, women-as-unsuited-for-the-workplace kind of narrative.

        And as A Simple Narwhal noted above, *maybe* this would work in Sweden, but I can see so many different ways that this could go really, really wrong. (If we all input our cycles into a spreadsheet, how long before someone realises that I’m pregnant… and got an abortion? Or suspects it, when I really had a miscarriage?) So many problematic issues here. Terrible idea.

    9. Lilysparrow*

      Nope, nope, nope.

      The last thing we need in the workplace – or anywhere else – is to reinforce the myth that women’s periods make them “crazy”, sick, weak, or incapable.

  112. Ginevra Farnshawe*

    Obsessive reader, first-time commenter, toiler at a job that is truly hilarious in its consistent toxicity (litigator, trying vv hard to move into compliance in-house).

    Anyway, I was fretting to my therapist about the potential that an former boss might undermine me in my job search by saying negative things if called (a whole different story) and she said she thought there were legal limits on what bosses could disclose—unless you specifically authorized it was limited to dates of employment (whether my therapist should be giving me legal advice is ALSO another story). I know bosses can be cagey because of fear of defamation/tortious interference suits and I suppose there might be legal limits on disclosing information that can’t go into hiring decisions (former salary, harassment complaints you made, disability status etc.) but I am pretty sure they can say whatever they want otherwise e.g. “Ginny was talented I guess but she was also insolent and indolent.” Light googling does not contradict my instinct. (Obviously this is not someone I would list as a reference but they could still be called in a background check.) Has anyone ever heard of such a thing?

    1. Semaj*

      Alison has said many times here that managers can say anything they want, provided it was true. I think she’s getting at the defamation piece there, but in general I imagine pursuing legal recourse for a bad reference would not be practical.

      The only legal protection I can think of is provided to student employees, as a part of Federal Education Rights and Privacy Act, their time as a student worker is protected in the same way as their educational records are, and thus can only be released with a disclosure agreement.

      1. Ginevra Farnshawe*

        Yeah–it was one of those moments where I was like, this is so off that maybe it’s right, but nope! Just off. I’m in a state with vigorous and rapidly increasing employee protections so it seemed not impossible there was some development I’d somehow missed but nope. She’s great when she sticks to therapy though!

    3. irene adler*

      I think you are correct.
      The employer of this former boss may issue rules that limit what the employees may say in a reference check. Hence, some employers only give job title and dates of employment. Some will answer the question “is X eligible for re-hire at your company?”. But I doubt if this is an actual law. That would render all reference checking a waste of time (other than to verify that the jobs listed on the resume were actually held by the job applicant).

      Even if former boss trashes you, certainly you have other references that will ‘sing your praises’ -right? They might even be able to explain that former boss is vindictive and is acting out of spite and not trying to be accurate in his portrayal of you and your abilities.
      And, if your prospective employer has any amount of good sense, they will ask you about any derogatory statements made by any one reference.

      1. Ginevra Farnshawe*

        Yeah–when I am realistic about it I am (relatively) unconcerned about the practical impact and have little control over it anyway, it’s just a chew toy for my anxiety to gnaw on. Most former bosses will say great things and even assuming this particular boss is contacted she may give a fairish if not especially beautiful picture of me depending on whether she is called in the morning, or in the afternoon when she gets tired and cranky. “Insolent and indolent” was a silly and cruel characterization, but I am a type that can read as either “inquisitive and self-possessed” or “lacking deference” depending on who the reader is. And if a potential job is told I “lack deference” and that’s a dealbreaker, it is… probably not a fit on my end anyway.

  113. Going nuts*

    So hard to focus on my last weeks at work when my manager has asked me three different times to list all my activities and is in the phase of hate while grieving losing yet another employee. No feedback ever received on the lists or guidelines on whom to handover what. (My team cannot take any of my tasks – we have a funny structure.)
    The HR manager has spread the news of me leaving when it was confidential (I was asked to wait with the announcement) so my team learnt it through the grapevine (being asked to contribute to a goodbye gift). I manage three people. They were just shocked.
    Two weeks left only, then a week to recharge, and then a new, hopefully better place waiting for me.

    1. Friday*

      Best of luck to you! I just finished an odd notice period too, and a detox week, now am on to something bigger and better. Feels amazing to get through the notice period!

  114. Mister Anderson*

    I’m a manager at a large tech company. A few years back, when I was new to management, I had to fire an underperforming employee. He fought it every step of the way, first claiming that I was discriminating against him because he is Jewish, then that he had autism and anxiety disorder. HR had some feedback for how I should’ve done better, but thankfully they supported me through the PIP process, and he left a few weeks before we would have let him go.

    The problem is, he has a persecution complex and he hasn’t let this go. He contacts HR (I’m tight with my department’s HR coordinator) a couple of times a year with stories about how I’ve been contacting his new managers and saying he was fired for some sort of misconduct, usually sexual harassment. The reason he’s doing this is because my company has a no references policy (we confirm last salary, title, and dates of employment through The Work Number) and he thinks he can get me in trouble by making a claim that I violated it. He also hasn’t stayed at a job for more than nine months since he left this company, so it’s pretty clear he is mentally unstable.

    Recently, I found out he’s taken it up a notch. He created Twitter and Gab (basically Twitter for white supremacists who’ve been banned from the real Twitter) accounts under his own name and followed me, to make it look like I made them to frame him as a racist. He posts plenty of slurs against Jews, blacks and Asians on this account. I have no way to be sure it’s him, but I’d bet my life savings on it. I reported it to Twitter, but they have done nothing about it.

    Honestly, I think he should be run out of our industry and never be able to work again. The problem is, no one cares. I’ve emailed his current employer about this twice, but no response. What do I do from here?

    TL;DR: vengeful former employee with a persecution complex is trying to get me fired by making it look like I’ve created a racist twitter account impersonating him. Twitter hasn’t responded to my support cases. What recourse do I have?

    1. Kathenus*

      Here are my suggestions. 1) Let your current employer know, in writing, what’s occurring; 2) Ignore him and block him on social media, 3) Do NOT continue to contact his current employer – this just keeps you in this situation and gives him an in to say that you are persecuting him. Don’t feed the drama, at all. Good luck.

      1. Ask a Manager* Post author

        Yep. His employer is very unlikely to respond; stop contacting them. If you block him on Twitter, I think it stops him from following you (right?) so that takes care of that part. Let your employer know what’s going on. Other than that, there’s not much you can or need to do. I know it must be very unsettling, but if your current employer doesn’t give him any weight, that’s what’s most important.

    2. Iris Eyes*

      I don’t think any reasonable person is going to buy the story of you trying to frame him as a racist. If you were then why would you follow yourself???

    3. Lilysparrow*

      I don’t know much about Gab, but how could he follow you there if you’re not on it? Did he create a fake account in your name?

      And how could he frame you for making a “fake” racist account for him, if he created it himself?

      Just get the heck away from this guy, stop monitoring him & reporting him. Block & ignore.

  115. Anonymous Educator*

    Do you ever worry your emailed application to a job (i.e., cover letter and résumé) just went to spam?

    Much as I loathe online applications, at least they usually give you some kind of automated email confirmation of “We received your application. Maybe you’ll hear from us.”

    If a job listing just says “Email your cover letter and résumé to random email address,” and you never get an automated reply or manual copy-and-paste form reply, how do you know it didn’t just end up in spam, especially if it’s to a real person’s email address and not some generic jobs-at-place email?

    I guess you don’t know. And you just hope it didn’t end up that way?

    1. AnotherLibrarian*

      Pretty much. I mean, there’s always a possibility things don’t quite make it, but how is this different then if you mailed in your application? Things get lost in the mail. Things mislaid when people drop them off in person. I think this one where you just have to let it go.

      1. Anonymous Educator*

        I haven’t ever mailed one? I’m not that young (Gen X’er), but I’ve always had online options to apply…

    2. irene adler*

      Can you send the email marked either “request a read receipt” or “request a delivery receipt”? These are in Outlook under “Options”.
      Assuming the recipient cooperates, you’ll get notification that someone saw your email.

      2. Anonymous Educator*

        And I believe sometimes people in Outlook just refuse to send a read receipt even if they’ve read it. I don’t know if being delivered to spam qualifies as a successful delivery or not.

  116. Anon for today*

    So tired of people who seem to think workplace perk they’ve been fortunate to get are not absolute rights. We’re being relocated and losing some perks, and this guy is having fits. He’s my coworker and not someone I supervise but it’s so hard not to say anything.

    3. Hiring Mgr*

      Having fits sounds like a strong reaction, but people generally don’t like things taken away.. What kind of perks are you talking about? Did you used to provide free coffee and now you won’t be? did you subsizide parking or public transport and then stopped doing this? These things happen of course, but it’s understandable why an employee wouldn’t be thrilled..

      1. Anon for today*

        There are plans to move us. Right now we all have offices, but they’re not all uniform in size. Some offices are windowless. Some have windows. Aside from managerial positions, which of course, come with nicer, larger office, ours have been always assigned on a pretty random basis.

        As far as I know, we will still have offices. It’s just a question if they will have windows. The co-worker has been ranting about how he needs a window and the office has to be such and such a size. He hasn’t shut up about it for days now.

        I understand about being annoyed or upset, but half of our team doesn’t have windows right now. We’re all on the same level position wise.

          1. valentine*

            If he’s 40+, he may have grown up hearing about windows as indicative of standing and value, just like some people harp on time-in-job seniority as paramount.

            If you’re happy to go without a window or anything else, you’re probably happy in general. But, especially if temperature matters a lot and the window allows this person the only or one of the few controls they have at work, losing it will be massive, exacerbated by others seeing it as a small thing and therefore not accounting for it in the new space. I’m sure when people make these decisions they don’t ensure there are outlets x feet from everyone who relies on a space heater.

            1. Clisby*

              And then there are people like my husband, who don’t want a windowed office because he hates glare. Just put him in a dark room with the PC/laptop and he’s fine.

        2. Asenath*

          Oh, lord, windows. We went through an incredibly long upheaval when we moved over windows. I don’t want to get carried away and say anything that might be identifying, but I couldn’t believe adults were behaving in a way I’d have considered immature in an 8-year-old.

  117. Dr. Doll*

    I’ve posted here before about a team member who was not very effective — needed tons of guidance and follow-up, very sweet but quite unproductive, to the point that frankly things would be easier if they were not with us. Well, they were reassigned! They have moved to a new department, and I wish them very, very well indeed!

    One of the issues was that there wasn’t enough work in my team for a person in this role, so they did have a lot of thumb-twiddling time and I know how incredibly frustrating and demoralizing this is. In the new department they will have a HUGE amount of work and be able to make true contributions and I think that will improve things all by itself. I hope they can handle that big change!

    1. CM*

      Ahh, it’s so satisfying when someone who’s difficult to work with solves that problem for you by changing positions!

  118. Argh!*

    I’m considering applying for a job in a different department just to get away from my passive-aggressive jerk boss and my difficult-to-impossible report. The other job has a passive-aggressive jerk boss and no reports. The customer base I’ve developed would be the one regret, but I’d be starting over with new customers & essentially the same job duties other than supervising a jerk.

    It’s very very tempting!

  119. AnotherLibrarian*

    I am curious, because I have gotten different answers to this from different people and I want to know what the Ask a Manger folks think. What is the “professional” length of time to respond to business correspondence? I have always thought it was 24 hours for a phone call and 48 hours for an email. Is this no longer standard? How quickly do you attempt to reply to emails or telephone calls?

    1. Psyche*

      My experience with email is generally 24 hours or less (not counting weekends/holidays). At least some sort of acknowledgement that the email was received and an estimate of how long it will take to get a more substantial response if it is something more involved.

      1. Zephy*

        That’s kind of my unofficial rule, too. If I get an email that requires a response, I’ll usually respond right away – if it’s something simple, I’ll find the information and report back. If it’s going to take some digging, or requires information that I don’t yet have, I’ll at least send a “I’ll look into that and touch base with you [tomorrow/next week/etc as appropriate]” email. It feels appropriate to at least let the person know their question is on my radar.

    2. merp*

      My first boss instilled a “within 24 business hours” rule for our org, but I want to note that we dealt with a whole lot of constituents and previously under other management, the org had been accused of not being transparent enough. We worked hard to correct that and one of the ways was being really accessible and responsive. It’s a habit that has served me well in other jobs but I never assume the same standard from others.

    4. Kiwiii*

      I think it almost definitely depends on the industry. I would say at my company up to 2 business days for a phone call and 4 days for an email is probably pretty standard unless it’s particularly urgent. But that’s probably because we’re sort of a monitoring agency and most of the manager level individuals are either travelling or in extensive meetings 60% of the time or so.

    5. Oxford Comma*

      I try to respond within in a business day to emails, but it’s so hard sometimes especially when your organization is not very good at keeping the spam out.

    6. Aurion*

      This depends a lot on industry and role (which affects email volume). I generally respond to all email within two hours, or by next morning at the latest (which isn’t necessarily 24 hours if I receive the original email in the afternoon/evening). But I get relatively few emails compared to some other departments.

    7. Asenath*

      I suspect it varies with the job. There isn’t a formal rule where I work, but I try to get back with emails same day if possible. There are exceptions for one class of email in which I am often waiting for a response from Z before I can answer X. I don’t do much work by phone, but I answer my phone messages immediately.

  120. yams*

    Has anyone got any advice on dealing with an ex-boss who won’t let go? My ex-boss is not letting go, even though I was moved out of his chain of command a few months ago, he’s actively fighting my new boss for control over resources and I’m getting caught in the crossfire. Right now, I’m polite but vague, specially when he gives me instructions that contradict my actual boss’s orders (it’s happened a few times and it’s very awkward) but I’m running out of space to turn away from his orders. To make things worse, he’s in the office right next to mine while my boss is two hours away.
    I think the worst part may be the thousand emails where he is trying to show the new processes are not working properly (they are, but he never gets the full picture from his staff) where I have to show he’s not looking at things carefully enough.

    1. Four lights*

      Have you discussed with your new boss (and possibly his/her boss) how they would like you to handle this? Ideally, there should be some simple script you should say like, “Now that I’ve moved to a different department I’m unable to do this work. You’ll have to talk to is you think there’s a special need.” And then just keep repeating. Maybe you could even suggest this to your new boss to see if that’s ok to say.

      1. yams*

        There have been multiple attempts by VPs and directors to bring this particular manager on board with the changes we made. That script actually really pisses him off for some weird reason since my boss has used that exact same wording with him to really poor results.
        Since this guy was demoted like two levels in the org chart he has had a really hard time adjusting to this particular change.

    2. Oxford Comma*

      Would it be possible for you to go to your actual boss and ask for direction? This seems like it shouldn’t be your problem to solve.

      1. yams*

        My boss basically tells me to be polite and don’t follow certain broad categories of instructions , which I am doing. It’s still super awkward.

    3. Don’t care what the manager thinks*

      Can you move your office away from the ex-boss? Maybe that will help him understand that the process has changed and he can’t do a damn thing.

      Also if any verbal reminder of the new process annoys him – don’t use it. Come up with creative ways of saying ‘Sorry, I’m swamped and won’t be able to help’.

  121. alphabet soup*

    Am I wrong to be put off by this interview process?

    A month or so ago, a management consultancy contacted me about a non-consulting position (let’s say, teapot production project management). I had some phone screens, which went well, took some online skills tests, and I was invited for an in-person interview. Due to scheduling conflicts, my interview was set for early May. The recruiter told me that in addition to meeting with the hiring manager and members of the team, that I’d be doing a case interview (which I’ve heard is a common type of interview for the business field, but I have no previous experience with.)

    As the weeks have gone by, the recruiter keeps reaching out to me with additional prep for the case interview– doing an hour-long prep interview, participating in an hour-long webinar, more assessments. The person who conducted the “prep” interview told me that most people prepare for this kind of interview by doing 40-50 practice cases, gave me book recommendations to check out, and even suggested reaching out to my alma mater to find out if they have a consulting club I can join to do more in-person practice.

    That just sounds like a massive amount of work for an interview I don’t see as relevant to what I’m applying for. I tried to do some practice cases but found it difficult to stay motivated, because of how insanely boring I found them to be. I don’t care about things like sales revenue and market share.

    I decided to withdraw from the application process, mostly because I see my lack of interest as a culture-fit issue– if I don’t find the kind of work this company does interesting, that probably doesn’t bode well for my work satisfaction. And also, something about expecting 50+ hours of prep time for an interview seems really red-flaggy about what kind of work-life balance this company expects.

    But am I off-base in being massively put-off by this? Like, I’ve had previous interviews ask for writing samples and projects– but that was like… 5-7 hours worth of work (that was directly related to the role). But a 50-hour crash course in how to be a business consultant? What?

    1. CM*

      That doesn’t make sense. They’re treating you like a management consultant when you’re not one. Which implies that they’re not very good at their jobs — how can they give other people advice about how to run their business when they have this big flaw in their own process that they’re not realizing?

      So no, I don’t think you’re off-base at all. I wonder if you pointed out to them that this type of interview isn’t really relevant to a non-consulting role, and if so, what was their response?

      1. alphabet soup*

        I didn’t have the guts to point it out. But when this was scheduled, the recruiter did tell me that even though they know I’m applying for a non-consulting role that this is something they have all candidates do. Really weird.

    2. Hiring Mgr*

      I don’t know what a practice case is, but why couldn’t you do two or three of them vs 40-50? sounds strange..

      1. Psyche*

        Case interviews are difficult and intense. 40-50 is actually low. 2-3 really wouldn’t do it. Most people I know who did case interviews spent months preparing and did over 100. But most people who do them are applying for the consultant roles and will need to do case interviews at every firm they apply to. It isn’t really prep for the one interview but more a part of your schooling. It is really bizarre that this place is making non-consultants do a case interview and very off putting.

        1. alphabet soup*

          Thanks for providing that context. This is helpful to know. I definitely got the sense that case interview prep is the business school equivalent of prepping for the MCATs or GRE– super time-intensive.

    3. The New Wanderer*

      I’m glad you decided to withdraw because that would have been my recommendation after the first post-phone screen optional interview prep things started rolling in. Multiple hours of prep with them plus a week’s worth of hours of your own time on homework? That’s a terrible time-wasting process. I could see maybe a half-hour prep call or a second interview phone call with a potential manager/peer before the in-person interview, but anything more than that is total overkill. It also doesn’t seem to be offering *you* any chance to better evaluate the position and company, although you do know now that they have these crazy expectations even before you work there.

      I don’t think you’ll change their minds by pointing out how irrelevant most of this would be to the non-consulting position you were considering – they’ll just say “everyone” should know these things to work there.

      1. alphabet soup*

        Yeah, that was why I decided not to mention to them how off-putting this process is– I got the sense that this is their process, they’re not gonna change, and that they might be doing this to assess “culture” fit (or, more accurately, how far candidates are willing to go to prove themselves to the company, which points to a highly-demanding environment).

  122. Midwest writer*

    I have an Excel question: A school submitted all of the senior questionnaires for one of our papers in Excel format. Is there any easy way to pull these LONG text answers out of Excel and into a word processing format? (For what it’s worth, we use InDesign.) I am not a designer, but our designer asked me if I had any ideas. I thought, hey, it’s Friday. I’ve seen Excel questions here before, so I thought I’d give it a try. Excel is just not a program we use much.

    1. Anonymous Educator*

      Sure. Do a mail merge in Word. That won’t get it into InDesign, but that will get it “into a word processing format.”

      1. Anonymous Educator*

        Oh, if they don’t need to be on separate pages, you can also just copy and paste them into a plain text document, and then paste them into a word processor. But honestly InDesign itself will take only the text and not the table formatting.

      2. Midwest writer*

        Yeah, Word is totally fine, because we can easily copy from Word into InDesign. I just can’t imagine copying each cell individually.

        Thanks!!

        1. Anonymous Educator*

          You can highlight all the cells and then paste into InDesign. I believe that will work.

          1. Midwest writer*

            Sweet! Thanks! I’m passing these along to our designer, who is very happy to have some suggestions to test out.

    2. LCL*

      In Excel? Why do people do this? If you have access to modern versions of word and excel, not something from 1997, they talk to each other very easily. Save the excel document. Open the document. Does it look good? Then Save as-give it a different title. Work from this one, if you aren’t familiar with excel and get ahead of yourself you might corrupt the original.
      Now open Word. Create a new document, give it a title you can remember. Go back to excel. Copy the part you want to copy. Go to the word document-click paste. The paste command will give you different options-text only is the easiest to work with. Paste as picture won’t work at all for what you want. Copy everything you want copied. Depending on the size of your document, either save as with a different title and work from that. Or just work from one word document, editing as you go.

      1. Midwest writer*

        Thanks!
        I have NO IDEA why they would do this in Excel. But one thing you learn in an industry where people submit stuff is to never underestimate people’s abilities to surprise us with bizarre formatting.

        1. LCL*

          One kind of document I deal with regularly is related to equipment, every piece of which has a unique number. I frequently receive these documents formatted in Word… I don’t know why either.

    3. Admin of Sys*

      How much formatting is there and do you want to keep any of it? If you just want the data, and are comfortable dealing with it ending up unformated, you can copy the data in excel, and then right-click into a word document and choose the ‘keep text only’ option (the clipbaord with the A on it under paste options)
      But that will remove /all/ formatting, including bold and bullets and such. But the data will get moved out of tables, and the rows = line breaks should be retained at least.

      1. Midwest writer*

        It’s not much of a formatting issue. It’s more like cell 1 has a name, cell 2 has an answer to question 1, cell 2 has the answer to question 3, across maybe 6 or 8 cells. We really just need to keep the names and answers together, so line breaks should be enough.
        Thanks!

    4. iglwif*

      You should be able to just copy the cells you want from Excel and paste them into Word–they’ll paste as a table, which you can then use Word’s Table > Layout > Convert to Text button to turn into regular text paragraphs :)

        1. San Juan Worm*

          If you convert the Excel file to .csv you can use InDesign’s data merge feature.

  123. Shelly*

    Has anyone ever been told they can only use reference that are less than 3 years old? This was on an application recently, but I have been at my current position for six years. I do not want to use my current supervisor, for obvious reasons, so I am curious how others have handled this? I just ignored the requirement and used my usual references, but I am wondering how common this is.

    1. Anonymous Educator*

      That seems really odd. Most places I’ve liked working at I’ve stayed at 3 years or more.

    2. iglwif*

      That seems super weird to me.

      Unless it’s for a summer student job or something, how many people are going to have more than one reference that’s less than three years old? And if they DID have a bunch of references that recent (again, assuming they’re not all from part-time student jobs and such), would you really want to hire them?

    3. CatCat*

      Seems ridiculous and made me wonder if its an effort to exclude older workers specifically as they are more likely to have stretches of working for the same employer for longer than 3 years than younger workers are.

    4. CupcakeCounter*

      I’ve had this be an issue. I’ve used two current and then one older since no way was I giving them a current supervisor’s name and explained that very clearly. I tend to be places long term (5+ years) and all my promotions have been within the same department so no management changes.

  124. Sister Spider*

    I accepted a new position approximately 4 months ago and we’re interviewing summer interns. I have no experience as an interviewer and my boss is hung up on me having a “creative” question to pose to candidates. Our interns will be college students home for summer or very fresh grads, who presumably have very little interview experience and will be nervous as hell in a corporate office. I don’t really see the value in asking “if you were an animal, what would you be?” type questions but does anyone have any good suggestions for questions that might work?

    1. CM*

      Ugh, “creative.” This sounds more like a “managing your boss” question than an interviewing question. Maybe you could convince your boss that a hypothetical situation would be “creative” — like, describe something that could come up in this role, and ask the person to walk you through how they would handle it.

    2. AnotherLibrarian*

      Some questions I have used them interviewing students:

      1. Tell me about a time you had to overcome a challenge and how you went about doing it?
      2. Tell me about a time you made a major mistake and what you did afterwards?
      3. Ignoring all limitations of money, location, and education, tell me about your dream job and why what would make it so perfect for you?

      The first two are meant to give people who don’t have a lot of work context space to answer with examples from school or other things. The third can be super enlightening, because it tells you something about what they are interested in and what skills they think they have. Be careful about the third one, though because sometimes people are like, “My dream job would be being your summer intern” and in those situations, I calmly and cheerfully suggest that the point of the question is to name where they would go without any limitations.

    3. Kathenus*

      For me, creative questions ask about actual types of situations that the person might encounter in the position, to get a chance to learn more about their thought process. It might be something like – you are asked to do X task by John, which conflicts with another job you were assigned by Jane, how might you resolve this situation. Or whatever might be appropriate for both the position and for the industry.

    4. Anono-me*

      What if you interpret the question differently?
      What if you ask them ” What is the most creative out-of-the-box solution to a problem you’ve come up with?”

  125. anonforthis*

    I had a job interview a few days ago for a job I really wanted, and I think my thank you email to the manager was a little too long (3 paragraphs) and maybe sounded too desperate :(

    I’ll send a follow up with HR on Monday or Tuesday asking if they’ve made a hiring decision yet, but I’m wondering if my thank you email screwed up my chances to work at a organization I really wanted to be a part of.

    1. merp*

      I’m not a hiring manager but I doubt a slightly long or odd thank you email would knock someone out of consideration.

      Also this wasn’t your question, but I would maybe give them longer than a week to get back to you before reaching back out? Depending on the org it might take that long just for interviews with others to be finished or for the hiring committee to be able to have a meeting together.

    2. CM*

      I’m 99.9% sure that your overly enthusiastic thank you email did not screw up your chances.
      I think the only way a thank you email could screw up your chances is if you said something offensive or way off the mark of what the company actually does.

    3. Kathenus*

      I agree that the thank you letter would be very unlikely to hurt your chances. But I would NOT recommend following up this soon – they’ll contact you when they have more information. It’s been less than a week, following up now may be seen negatively. I know it’s hard, but you just need to be patient. I personally wouldn’t follow up at all for at least 3-4 weeks. Good luck with the position.

    4. AnotherLibrarian*

      You really need to give them longer than a week to follow up. Did they give you a timeline? I would take whatever the timeline they gave you and then add at least a week.

      Then you can follow up, once.

      1. anonforthis*

        They were a little vague on the timeline, but I think they might be interviewing more people next week because one of the interview times I was given was next week.

        I think this organization takes a while with interviews. I didn’t receive a request for an in-person interview until 3 weeks after my initial phone interview with HR, so I’ll wait a few more weeks to follow up.

  126. Budgie Lover*

    Last weekend I gave a week’s notice at my first part time job as I recently got bumped up to 20 hours per week in my second part time job. For job 1 I had to commute an hour each way, and it’s not what I want to be doing long term anyway. I considered asking for a reduction of hours but I was already looking for other work anyway so I decided just to focus on job 2 and my health for now.

    I did exactly zip to earn the extra hours; I just lucked out by joining right before one of the senior people gave notice and her duties needed to be reassigned. It feels like the timing was right.

  127. Silo*

    Ugh, admin professionals day rant: I never worked anywhere that celebrated it until my current job. I started at Nonprofit as an admin in one department (which did not celebrate Admin day) then moved to a non-admin job in a different job, getting a small salary bump in the process. There are two admins in my current job, both of whom do work at a high level and have been here for over 10 years. Most likely they make as much or maybe more than me. So why do we pass around an envelope every year to collect cash for them??? I think if Nonprofit wants to celebrate Admin professionals day, they should take it out of their own budget. Or if our admins deserve an extra $100+ per year, then give them a raise! The admins are great, but feels so weird to me to take up a collection to thank them for doing their jobs.

    2. Michelle*

      I work at a nonprofit as an admin and they do not send around an envelope to collect cash for us. Our managers take us out lunch and that’s pretty much it. I think I am paid well for the job I do and we all just got raises.

      Can you decline to donate or will that get you side-eye?

    3. post it*

      Yeah, I would find it very patronizing if my coworkers took up a collection for me every year just for doing my job. Compensate me appropriately and treat me like everyone else in the office!!

  128. merp*

    Just a note to say thanks to folks who responded to my v low stakes question about a mistake on my CV last week. My second interview was yesterday and I think it went well! :)

  129. Seeker*

    Is it okay to blindside a manager with a resignation?

    I am busy but have lost interest in the work that I’m doing and don’t feel I’m growing. Both my manager and the CEO have said in passing that hiring more isn’t in the cards for my team. I don’t foresee the uninteresting tasks going away. I am paid well and even got a promotion, but I’m the doing same things I did several years ago.

    Is there a point in raising my feelings with my manager if there is likely no way to fix it? The job is what it is. I also don’t want to be chastised for “complaining” or being entitled, not a team player, or thinking these duties are beneath me.

    I also want to end things on good terms. What are your thoughts?

    1. iglwif*

      If there’s genuinely nothing that they could change to make you want to stay — or if you genuinely believe there are things they could change but they *won’t* change them — then it seems kind of pointless to raise them, IMO.

      If there *are* things they could change, or if you think they might change those things if you did raise them, then it’s worth a try.

      That said … if you find a job that fits you better than your current one, and you resign with adequate notice and don’t, like, try to torch the place (metaphorically or literally) on your way out, there’s no reason things shouldn’t end on good terms! People find new jobs and resign all the time, and sometimes it’s not even because they were actively unhappy with their current job but because they found something really awesome.

    2. CatCat*

      Are you sure there’s no way to fix it? Are those tasks that you find uninteresting something someone else on the team may actually prefer to do?

      Might be worth raising if that’s a possibility. “Hey boss, I am interested in working on more of X and Y, but less on Z. Is there any way to make that happen?”

    3. NotaPirate*

      Re ending on good terms, you can always do the I got an offer I couldn’t refuse, its always been my dream to work for other Y company, type of phrasing. If you relocate thats even easier, something in new city is reason not lack of passion for current job.

      That said, i dont think there’s an expectation to stay on one job your whole career. Wanting to do different tasks and have room for upward growth (managing people under you was basically what you described being disheartened by hiring freeze) are totally valid reasons.

    4. Clisby*

      I don’t really understand the question – it’s always OK to resign. Just like it’s always OK for the employer to lay you off/fire you (barring discrimination, of course.)

  130. workerbee*

    I work with someone who is extremely defensive about everything, nothing is ever their fault, ever, even things that don’t matter, even when there is clear history that whatever issue comes from a decision made years ago that made sense then. I try to approach anything that needs to be discussed in the most non threatening way but still get this response. They are like this with everyone, so it’s not that they are afraid of me. We are peers who have to work closely together on many projects. Going to my boss is not an option because unfortunately he doesn’t manage people issues (he avoids this person by coming to me, for example, by bringing things to me for both of us so then I have to deal with problematic co-worker). Any suggestions on how I can approach this person so we can talk about the issue at hand rather than how she is not responsible for the problem?

    1. Kathenus*

      Maybe the discussions could be framed in advance, by you, very specifically to look at an action plan for moving forward. Almost avoiding the issue itself or any discussion of what happened or why, and framing it as what should happen now. Past that, you can consistently not be willing to engage in that side of things if she brings it up or tries to focus on it.

      Example –
      You: “Jane, let’s work on a plan for a new process for cataloging invoices to avoid them being filed in numerous locations where people can’t always find them quickly.”
      Jane: “I wasn’t the one who set up the different locations, Fergus did that, I was putting things in them because I was told to do so, it’s not my fault that they are scattered all over.”
      You: “No worries, what do you think, should we put the centralized database on Sharepoint or in the shared drive?”

  131. Wonderment*

    Here’s a silly, low stakes question.

    I am a digital artist and I turned one of my designs into a sticker that I hand out to friends/new people I meet. It’s just for fun. Everyone always seems appreciative and excited.

    I’m starting a new job and I was thinking of bringing the stickers in to hand out when I meet people. Is this gesture a little much? I can read the room when I do it. I wouldn’t force it onto the CEO or a client (!) but just thinking peers and maybe immediate supervisors.

    This is a creative role is a laid-back field. Good idea or too eccentric?

    1. AnotherLibrarian*

      I would not do this in your first day or two days. I would wait for a week or two to read the situation before you make a decision on the culture of your office.

    2. Forestdweller*

      I actually really like this and think it does come off fun and artsy. I do think I would wait until I’d been at the company for a week or two. Alternately, if you have a desk/your own area, you could have some sitting out and encourage people to have one if they mention them.

  132. iglwif*

    Part-time vs full-time dilemma question!

    I worked in one place for over 2 decades, freelanced for a year, and have been in my current job for just over a year. My boss has been on medical leave for a while so I’m overdue for my annual review (which is fine–it’s a small company, I was expecting this) but it’s coming up in the next while and I am wrestling with something.

    My job is remote and salaried. Currently, I work 75% time (30 hours/week instead of 40), but money’s pretty tight in my family right now, we have a kid heading for postsecondary education in less than 2 years, and I am considering whether to ask about going full-time. (I don’t know whether they’d say yes if I asked! But when I was hired, I specifically asked for 75% time, so I think they might.)

    Pros of FT:
    – more money
    – my work time might feel less rushed during busy periods
    – I could take on some projects I haven’t had time for up to now

    Cons of FT:
    – less time for non-work things: walking the dog, reading, hanging out with my kid when she gets home from school
    – less flexibility for stuff like appointments and early rehearsal calls
    – what if I end up with nothing to do during non-busy periods?

    It’s not that there are no *real* advantages to going FT, but I feel like I’m focusing too much on the “more money” part because I’m so anxious about our current level of debt … much of which is my own fault because I didn’t put aside enough money for taxes during the year I was freelancing and thus ended up owing money for the first time in forever :(

    WWYD?

    1. post it*

      I would sit down with your budget and see how long it would take you to knock out that debt at your current salary vs. full time salary. Is it worth the 10 hours/week? Also, you’re still remote, so you should still have some of the flexibility in your schedule, no commute, etc.

      1. iglwif*

        Thanks! :)

        You’re pointing indirectly to something we’ve been needing to do for some time, which is to sit down and figure out how much money is coming in (my salary, my spouse’s salary, any other income such as royalty cheques and eBay sales), how much is going out, how the expenses are split up (e.g., does it still make sense for me to be covering all the kid-related expenses, or should we share those out differently? maybe I should cover kid-related expenses and he should cover dog-related expenses?), and where exactly it’s going. One issue is that because my employer is in one country and I’m in another, my salary isn’t actually quite the same every month!

        1. post it*

          I think once you get a better handle on those things, you can really assess how valuable the extra work time will be. I’ve been using YNAB for budgeting and I really like it!

  133. Hi!*

    I write a weekly newsletter for work and my boss expects it to be a ton of content, as in I am spending 20 hours of my week on this newsletter. This week, there were only 26 link clicks. Only 15% of people actually open this weekly newsletter. My boss refuses to listen to me when I tell him we should be paring back articles since the amount of link clicks does not justify the amount of my work time. When I first started, he said that I would not be the only one working on the newsletter but I am and it is driving me up a wall.

    1. The Other Dawn*

      Wow that’s a lot of content, as well as a very frequent publishing schedule! It seems like a newsletter should be monthly at most, especially with the low engagement rate you mention, unless there’s some compelling reason to do it weekly such as policy changes and things like that. Ours is weekly; however, it’s mainly to communicate procedure changes, reminders on how to do things, etc. and if there’s nothing that week, we don’t publish. It’s typically one or two pages.

      1. Hi!*

        I work for a trade organization so there are relatively frequent updates and policy changes from a government perspective… But normally other associations I have talked to have everyone in the office contributing to the newsletter rather than just one person so people who are actual experts on the topic are writing the articles… It is just especially annoying when everyone sends me things that they want added and just put “for *newsletter name*” when they all know how to add articles.

        1. valentine*

          Colleague: for *newsletter name*”
          Hi!: Go ahead and add it. Just a reminder: I don’t need notifying.

    2. Rainy days*

      Wow!

      First of all, that sucks. I would also feel very frustrated if I was spending so much time on something that no one was reading.

      My question is: Do you enjoy writing and digital marketing? If so, challenge yourself to research best practices, experiment, and see if you can increase the open rate and clicks. This is a popular field right now and you could gain marketable skills; opens and clicks are also good metrics for your resume. If you find some information about best practices in terms of “optimal length is X” you could also use this to create a formal presentation to persuade your boss to shorten the length and focus on quality over quantity.

      However, if you do not enjoy this task at all and really just don’t want to do it, you can either have an honest conversation with your boss about transitioning the task to someone else, OR see what strategies you can use to minimize the time you spend on it. For example, if not many people are opening it, maybe don’t proofread so closely for typos, minimize the length of what you write, etc.

      1. Hi!*

        I have tried explaining the metrics to my boss and he genuinely said “yeah I don’t look at those because it is too depressing” because he used to be the one that did this newsletter. I am not a huge fan of digital marketing… but I have decided to take on more of it at work since my boss isn’t letting me do the other half of my job, lobbying. That way I at least have something to put on my resume when I leave so I am working on an association-wide rebranding.

        My boss doesn’t not enjoy it, he is just the predecessor to my position and thinks of this newsletter like his baby. Plus our competing association does 20 articles and he is constantly competing with them in all things (besides him, everyone else in the office and the staff at the competing association get along well).

        1. WellRed*

          20 articles is way too much for a weekly publication like this. I am an editor with a trade news publication, we do four articles, plus one round up of briefs. I am on the email list for several of the trade associations in our industry. Many do weekly blasts, the amount of content varies depending on what’s going on that week, but it’s a lot less than what you are being tasked with. People will not click through 20 articles. Or even 10.

    3. iglwif*

      Wow, that’s a lot of work!!

      I also do the company newsletter, but ours is monthly (and I make other people contribute, although I still do most of the writing). It’s still a lot of work–I can’t imagine having to do it every week!

      1. Hi!*

        So my title is Communications and Government Relations… He won’t let me do anything with government relations since I am constantly working on this newsletter. Legally, I technically don’t even have to be a registered lobbyist at this point in time. I am just frustrated about this at work and a heck of a lot of other stuff. Like him showing up drunk to our conference from the night before.

    4. alphabet soup*

      Is there any way you could save yourself some time by repacking old content into new newsletters?

      Especially with those low engagement rates, it’s unlikely your audience will notice the recycled content. Creating an editorial calendar can help with this. You can have a pool of evergreen content that gets recycled maybe on a monthly basis, and then have a handful of slots for new, timely content on a weekly basis.

      1. Hi!*

        I’ve tried. Usually I can get away with reusing three per week, but only if it is about upcoming education offerings (I have tried on others and my boss shot me down)

        1. alphabet soup*

          That’s frustrating. I’m sorry. :(

          Your boss sounds unreasonable and out of touch with newsletter best practices.

    5. Toodie*

      I don’t know if you have to create all the content yourself or just curate it from other websites, but when I had to do a curating thing I set up a freaking TON of Google Alerts for key words for my industry: competitors, customers, big names, suppliers, etc. I found so much that way and while I still had to check through things, it helped a lot.

    6. The New Wanderer*

      So it sounds like you’re creating this newsletter for an audience of one: your boss. If other people read it that’s a bonus, but the one person you know who will read it and apparently cares about ALL of the content is your boss. I would absolutely do what Toodie suggests and use as much cut and paste as you can (he won’t let you recycle articles too often, but cutting down on original content written by you might be below his radar). And spend any time you buy back for yourself looking for a better job.

      It sounds like your job will never be what you were promised. No one will be helping you out, and you will not be doing the lobbying/gov’t stuff. So your take of “at least it’s something to put on my resume” is probably the best outlook you could have, in what I hope will be a short tenure after you find something more in line with your career goals.

      Also, don’t actually do this but I think it would be fitting if you took all those links that people “helpfully” send you “for the newsletter” and put them in, attributed to each coworker along with their contact info and a suggestion to follow up with them personally for more details.

  134. Forestdweller*

    I am so thankful for ASM, Allison, all of you guys! I am mostly a lurker but this has been an incredible resource for me and I have recommended it to several others.

    I work in HR in a large manufacturing facility in a rural area. Manufacturing is kind of a special beast. We have people who come from a wide variety of backgrounds, education levels, etc all working together, which is awesome, but also presents challenges. I really have a heart for manufacturing, as the company I work for is one of the few real avenues for people in this area who have limited education and opportunities to start on a career path that can lead them to a comfortable wage. We are huge on promoting from within; 6 members of our exec team literally started as temporary production team members. This is great, but I want to do more to make this a great place to work, and a lot of the ideas I find aren’t really feasible things to offer because of the nature of our work. So much of what we do requires being present and adhering to specific shifts, so I’m always looking for employee perks OTHER than work from home/flextime/etc. I have had a difficult time finding HR resources that are specific to manufacturing environments, and would love to know if any of you have some to recommend. Blogs, organizations, whatever, I’ll take it.

    1. LCL*

      One of the best things you can do is make sure that all corporate communication goes out to all shifts. If your employees don’t use email, one of the shift managers should be passing on all of this information to the workers.

      It is amazing the amount of goodwill that is generated by bringing in food for shiftworkers. As long it is fresh-leftover pizza from dayshift won’t cut it for the nightshift group. Do you have vending machines? Ask the different shifts what they want stocked in the machines. Make sure there is a decent wireless connection in the breakroom, so those so inclined can surf during breaks. And don’t forget free sanitary supplies in the women’s restroom.

      Keep the parking area as safe as possible. Is it well lit? Trash picked up? How is the safety program in general? Do the safety people ever get out on the floor after bankers’ hours? If not, they should. Are your procedures really clear re filling out OTJ injury reports? Does everyone know where to find the paperwork.?

  135. Rainy Friday*

    I’m a manager at a new company and I have a meeting with a direct report in regards to career path and such. He seems to be struggling with where he fits in. My predecessor heavily relied upon him, so much so that his day is filled with lots of things I feel he doesn’t really need to be doing and that don’t really elevate him to the level he should be at for his position. Since I’m new here, I’m still learning how things are done and why, as well as where I fit in since this particular department structure is new to me.

    My vision is to eventually decentralize a few things and let team members do these things from start to finish since that’s how people grow and learn, feel ownership and learn how what they do fits into the department and the company in general. I know that’s not going to go over well with this person and will likely lead to more feelings of “where do I fit in,” but I can’t let one person hold the department back. Also, the CEO is itching for change and I’m part of that.

    I know this person wants to grow and move up, but I can tell that he doesn’t really have a sense as to what that looks like. Any particular questions I can ask that might get him to really think and figure it out? The obvious question is what does growth look like to him, but I get the sense he doesn’t even really know that yet.

    1. Rainy Friday*

      Well we had another talk and I feel as though it went nowhere again. I asked the “what would your job look like if you could make it anything you want” and he doesn’t seem to know.

      1. Analytical Tree Hugger*

        Two thoughts:

        1) You say this person says they want to “grow and move up.” Do they have an idea of what they want to move up to?
        2) Would it be helpful to ask probe with starters like:

        “Tell me what tasks/assignments/roles you find most fulfilling and would want to go deeper with or do more of.”

        “Tell me about someone in the organization (especially those at higher levels), who you admire as a professional (or has a role that you admire) and why you admire them.”
        “Tell me about a process that you think the company could do more efficiently/better.”

        1. Rainy Friday*

          1) In theory he does; however, he has a fundamental misunderstanding of the job description he thinks he wants. The higher position involves none of the things he loves to do now and never would at this company. I’ve tried explaining that he’d be giving up A. B and C to do X, Y and Z, but he’s still not understanding.

          2) I’ve tried asking the first question with limited success. The second question I’m not sure would help him figure it out. Maybe, though.

          There’s more to the situation, but I don’t want to out myself in case he reads this site. What I’ll say is that his history within the department and with my predecessor (and his resentment about that, which came out yesterday), his perceived lack of value to the department, and his level of maturity all tie into his unhappiness. I think the whole “where do I fit in” thing is just another part of the mix and has been brewing since before I got here; me arriving just brought it to the forefront. I’ll also say that I’m starting to see things that my manager and my predecessor told me about when I first arrived, which is that he tends to read way more into things that are there. Kind of like looking for ways to perceive a slight to him, if that makes sense.

  136. Frequently late*

    Looking for some perspective here…

    This year, I’ve noticed that I’ve been arriving 15-30 minutes late for work more often than not (I’m a salaried professional at a small nonprofit; clients rarely come to the office and if they do so it is usually in the afternoon). However, despite arriving late, I’m the first person in the office about 75% of the time. My boss is happy with my work and hasn’t mentioned the late arrivals. Since I usually arrive before her, she might not even be aware.

    The background is that for my first few years working here, I was *always* on time. Then, Toxic Employee was hired and often arrived 2-3 hours late and left 2-3 hours early (no, not joking) with no penalty. She was finally let go–but only after all other employees basically threatened to quit. That was when I started arriving late; after seeing her get away with many forms of bad behavior, I didn’t see the point in busting my ass to get to work on time. I think this infected all of my coworkers, hence me being the first one at work despite being late.

    Now I’m afraid I’m forming really bad habits. With no one else at work arriving on time, and me usually being the first one in the office, how much of a problem is this? Should I make more of an effort?

    2. The New Wanderer*

      I think there are two things you could do, and they’re both contingent on your manager really being okay with the later arrival times, or flexible times in general. The key is to decide for yourself if it’s important to *you* to be what you consider on time.

      1) If you actually prefer your current schedule, you could reframe it in your head that your (and others’) arrival time is now the new normal. You all are not “late” anymore, your hours have just shifted a little later than previously. That takes the negative aspects away from it.

      2) If you’re not okay with reframing the later arrival as the new normal start time, that’s okay too. But you’d probably have to be okay with knowing that your other coworkers will probably not shift back (especially if they’re arriving later with no pushback), so you’ll have to see it as everyone has slightly different working hours or you may start to resent them too.

    3. NicoleK*

      Are you me? Lol. I have 2 coworkers. One comes in anytime time between 9 am-11 am. And the other coworker routinely works 6.5-7.0 only hours despite being FT. As long as your boss don’t care.

  137. Need Tips for Letting It Go*

    I hope this isn’t too late to submit a question — I know that I read early in the morning and I assume that’s the case for most! I’m curious if anyone has any tips for letting go of negative feelings against a former coworker/how their office handled that coworker’s actions.

    I had an administrative assistant that worked for us who treated me extremely poorly, both personally and professionally. While concerns were raised about her treatment of me to the partners by both myself and others, and the partners claimed to be sympathetic and understanding, the partners were very conflict adverse and often their solution was to keep her away from my work instead of addressing the issues with her. She has now been gone for close to seven months and we are still finding projects of mine that she deliberately mishandled. Each time we discover something new, it reignites my anger at her, and frankly my anger at the company/partners since they really ignored the problem, tried to downplay the issues to me, and let me not only be mistreated but also forced me to do a considerable amount of extra work, even now, to fix the problems she was creating. I never show my anger at work, but I’m really upset. This is very much unlike me.

    I feel like saying anything at this point would be pointless since she’s gone, but each time we find something new (this time it was discovering that she had intentionally shredded hundreds of pages that I needed for a project and had not scanned it, both of which are unacceptable in our office), I’m disappointed with my office all over again. Other than this, I like my office/coworkers, so I really want to move past this. Thank you for any tips or insight!

    1. Kobayashi*

      I sympathize with the early-morning-reader syndrome. So here I am, responding late – My jaw is a bit on the floor reading what you’ve had to put up with — shredding documents? Holy Macaroni! I’ve been where you are, though — where I am upset about something at work and it’s hard to move past it (even though I know I should). Have you tried focusing on gratitude? You mention you like your office/coworkers and want to move past this. I take it that means you prefer to stay in your current position and not look elsewhere? If so, then focus on that. You have coworkers you like. That’s a BIG part of your work environment. Make a point to focus on being grateful for that. Like, I will sometimes tell myself, on days when I’m feeling down: “I have a good job. I like the people in my department. The hours are reasonable. I get free parking.” Hey. Those are good things that I remind myself to be thankful about. Then I think back on terrible jobs I’ve had and why I’m grateful for where I am now. It works…sometimes. :)

    2. NicoleK*

      If your employer offers any type of EAP, I encourage you to utilize it. I, too, can commiserate. I’m dealing with my own work place issues.

    3. WellRed*

      Not sure what your office is like but would it be totally pointless to just calmly, and once, express your disappointment at how this was handled and the amount of work it is creating? “I realize there’s nothing to be done for it now, but I just need to say, this is really frustrating and disappointing, first, in how it was handled, and now, in the amount of extra work this has created which feels like an insult upon injury.” It won’t change anything but you might feel a teeny bit better.

    4. Need Tips for Letting It Go*

      Thank you for the suggestions! Unfortunately, we are a small company with no EAP. I’m very sorry you’re dealing with issues as well NicoleK. I will try to focus on the good moving forward since there are certainly good parts and
      I appreciate that perspective. My office has an odd mindset about complaining over issues that they view as handled, so unfortunately raising the matter would likely go over very poorly. However, in a different office, I would absolutely use and appreciate the language you suggested WellRed.

        1. valentine*

          Yeah, tell them it’s best to get a pair of fresh eyes on it.

          Since you’re staying and looking for one-sided conflict resolution because the transgressors are unrepentant, I’m not sure how you can do that without a counselor. Unless detachment strategies, as from parents and other, especially enmeshed, family, would work.

  138. I'm A Little Teapot*

    Just giving a call out for all the GOOD managers out there – I’m dealing with an extremely painful loss, and my manager has made it very clear that I can do whatever I need to do, and encouraged me to take time off/wfh if I needed. I’m pretty sure she’s given a discrete heads-up to other mgmt in my team, because no one has given me any side eye at all when I’m leaving early.

    This sort of thing matters. Screw it up, and you lose trust. Get it right, you build it.

  139. Grace*

    I’m looking at getting an internship for this summer (it’s all arranged via the university) complicated by a pre-booked holiday 8-13 July – most of them are eight-ten weeks starting in June. Found a good four-week one that I like the look of – it’s an intern to assist the Grants Fundraiser at a charity for domestic violence and sexual abuse. The job description is very research-focused, which works well for a history student.

    The application form (which is used for all internships applied for via the uni) basically serves as a cover letter. There are three sections with 2000 characters each for why you’ve chosen to apply (suggesting that you refer to its services, values, and specific tasks), why your skills make you a suitable candidate (including ideas for adding value to the role), and identifying a challenge currently facing organisations in that sector and something the organisation could do to meet the challenge and turn it into an opportunity (with reference to specific articles/research on competitors etc).

    I actually really like the application form; especially for students, who may not have written cover letters before, I feel like it really gives people an opportunity to shine in their applications. What does everyone else think?

    And now that I’ve posted this, it’s time to stop procrastinating and actually fill it out, especially since the deadline is Sunday…

    1. TechWorker*

      Obviously depends on the company but if they already have some flexibility re: length of the internship they may well also be ok with you taking a week unpaid off in the middle. (Not relevant to you current application but 8-10 weeks is not that different to 4+5 weeks).

      1. Grace*

        Yes, someone else has pointed that out to me – and my exams this year finish very early compared to most people’s (over in the first week) so I would be available to start earlier than most people. I think I’m going to pick out another two that I would really love to have, since they only let you submit three, and just specify in the ‘available dates’ section that I can start in May but have a mid-July holiday. They might just go for the easiest, but it’s worth a try.

        1. Bex*

          In my experience, it’s way easier to have an intern stay an extra week rather than start early. We usually bring on quite a few summer interns and start them either all at once or in two groups so that we can make onboarding as efficient as possible. So an earlier start would kind of be a pain in the ass, but it would be pretty easy if one needed to take a week off and then extended their internship by a week at the end.

  140. wafflesfriendswork*

    People who have done this, what’s the biggest pay decreases you’ve taken to switch jobs? I recently interviewed for a role where I was asked the range I was looking for, and then they gave me the range the role would likely pay. It would be about a 23% decrease from my current salary, but when they told me about the role and the company it sounded like there would be much more opportunity for advancement and professional growth than in my current position (which is in a smaller company with little to no opportunity for growth). I had a bit of sticker shock when I was first told how much less it would be than I’m making currently, but it seems like the long-term benefits outweigh the costs, and I’m in a place in my life that I don’t feel it would hurt that much (rent is pretty cheap for the area, no kids yet, I’ve lived on that amount before). Has anyone been in this situation? How did it go?

    1. Kathenus*

      Earlier in my career I took a 1/3 pay cut. It was tough, but I was trying to get experience in a certain aspect of my industry that I needed to achieve longer term career goals, and it was an experience-building position versus a long-term one (expected to stay in it 3-5 years, give or take), which wasn’t uncommon in the role. So I went into it with my eyes wide open, and while it was the only time in my career I had a side gig of waiting tables once a week for pocket cash, it was the right decision for me in the long run. Other times I’ve taken pay cuts it’s been related to differences in cost of living differences in the new location, and was in reality generally either lateral or a slight increase in actual usable income.

    2. NicoleK*

      I took a $2,000 pay cut once. I was trying to get into the county and settled for a entry level position. I regretted the move because I learned that due to my job classification, it was difficult for me to transfer up even if I had the qualifications for the job that was posted.

    3. WellRed*

      I took a painful cut from 30K back to 18K (though there were cost of living differences). But, it allowed me to move back into my original field (I was still very entry level) and move home.

    4. Asenath*

      I took a big pay cut when switching careers – it was a while ago, but at a guess I went down by more than half. Way more, when you consider that initially after the switch I was taking any kind of part time or short term contract I could get. It was worth it to me – the previous job caused immense stress-related problems (really, I don’t know why I went into it, much less struggled so long to stay in it since I was so unsuited to it, but hindsight is 20-20). That’s a different situation than yours, though, since I really wasn’t able to stay in the higher-paying position. You wouldn’t be losing much by staying – but from what you say, you might gain a lot by leaving because of the future possibilities.

  141. Questioner*

    I have a strange job history, and I’m looking for advice going forward.

    Out of school, I was working in finance, became an analyst, and then led on-boarding for the sales team. (My title and salary stayed the same, so I was never called “analyst” or “HR coordinator” or anything, even when my duties changed.)

    I realized was never going to be promoted there, so I applied to new jobs. I applied to an analytical position at a marketing firm. The hiring manager loved my writing style so much on the application questions that he created a new position for me as Content Strategist. (I didn’t actually apply to that job.) I oversaw the copy for all the marketing campaigns. Eventually, I realized there was a better way to structure the company, so I helped the CEO make it actually scalable (and profitable). I became the project manager, leading the whole marketing team, and developed campaigns from the very beginning stages through the end. I was also not promoted at this job because the CEO promoted someone in the past who didn’t work out, so he decided it would be a flat organization on paper and he wouldn’t promote anymore. He also said it was the true mark of a leader to be able to get people to follow you without authority.

    I mentioned to a friend how I helped the company restructure, and he introduced me to a friend with a tech company. He was impressed, and offered me a job as Director of Operations.

    I oversaw all operations for the company, including its legal reincorporation, HR (hiring, payroll, compliance), investor pitch decks, company branding, accounting, and market research. The tech/investing weren’t going well, and they ran out of money. I was only paid… sometimes… and eventually the company went under.

    I was unemployed for a long time and was going to lose unemployment benefits. I tried getting another job in marketing, operations, or project management — because the thing I’m best at is leading teams, creating structure, developing procedures, and becoming efficient.

    But I was running out of options. After hearing about a friend who made over $100k a year as an admin, I changed my resume to only mention administrative tasks. Suddenly, I was getting a ton of interviews, and I ended up getting a job as an EA.

    The job didn’t work out. Out of all my skills, being an emotional babysitter is not one of them (I know not all EA roles are like that, but mine was). I moved to another state and now I’m doing admin temp work.

    I don’t really know how to position myself to be able to get a job I’m good at. Recruiters have told me that it’ll be hard for me to get a good job because I’m competing against people with standard, linear career trajectories who have worked for large companies like Google. The temp job is for a large company, and I’m now realizing that each of the things I did in just one role is ONE person’s job here — and most people have done just that ONE thing for years. It makes sense that my resume would seem less impressive.

    I feel like I’ve positioned myself as an admin now. It seem like the only job I can get, but it’s not what I’m good at. Any advice?

      1. Questioner*

        Thanks for the comment! I was saying more how can I position myself as a leader on my resume when I’ve had multiple fields of work? Office manager is pretty entry-level for me.

    3. AudreyParker*

      I don’t have a good answer for you, but just wanted to say I’m struggling with a similar situation – I always end up wearing a lot of hats and contributing on a high level, but not from a place of linear expertise. So I keep coming back to “admin” as the only job I can target that has a broad purview, despite it something that I am not particularly good at (for similar reasons!) and do not enjoy, as well as not helping me advance or increase my salary. My current strategy is to target smaller companies who may be more open to less conventional career paths… and keep my fingers crossed and network.

  142. anoniemoose*

    Hi! So first things first, I’ve been reading a lot of posts and comments for a long time and while my only actual job thus far as been 2 semesters as a graduate assistant (in an office, so not a TA) I’ve found a lot of the language for talking to your manager to be incredibly useful for “talking about a problem with a friend without hurting her feelings” or “talking to my professors”

    But right now, I’m in a bit of a pickle that my complete inexperience in the job world is not preparing me for. So! I planned a trip next weekend to visit a bunch of archives I need for my thesis but by mistake I also signed up to volunteer at an event that’s run by the person who will supervise my one of my two internship over the summer. I know from talking to them casually that they’re very strapped for volunteers but these train tickets and hotel rooms aren’t refundable and I’m 1) running out of time to do these research trips before I have to have all my primary material-ducks in a row and 2) I can’t afford another trip! I’m a grad student, I barely scrape by with my funding!
    BUT on the proverbial flip-side: I can’t sour the relationship with my supervisor before I even get there!
    Which do I cancel because no way can I possible do both!

    1. LibbyG*

      Any chance you can recruit your own replacement for the volunteer event? And then offer that solution to your future supervisor?

      1. anoniemoose*

        I thought about that, but everyone I know in the region is booked up and we’ve already done a few orientation/trainings for the event and she’d have to re-train someone and I don’t know if it’d be better to just re-organize the groups or re-train a whole person.

        And the last thing I’d want to do is just inconvenience more people

  143. Career change curiousity - teacher to auditor?*

    I’ve taught math for over a decade now on and off, and I’m getting exhausted by having to care this much about my students. I’m also getting tired of the school never having any money, and our state managing to pass at least one new law that “schools should do such-and-such” almost every year while never managing to pass a budget that lets us have reasonable class sizes. I also feel like there’s tremendous pressure on teachers to pass everyone even though the standards students we are told students are supposed to meet aren’t achievable with the amount of money and time schools are given to work with those students, and in the end the “squishy piece” in the system that’s supposed to give way is a math teacher is supposed to pretend that a student knows math and pass them anyway. I make a terrible squishy piece because I get stressed out if I’m out of compliance with some criteria so I actually follow all of the rules around what does and does not count as a such-and-such.

    I’m really interested in switching careers to being some kind of auditor, because I find the idea of going into workplaces for a short period of time, figuring out their processes, and finding where those processes do and don’t work correctly really appealing. (Also, because it seems like the only way the things that personally bugged me in jobs either in teaching or in finance ever got fixed is when a auditor pointed them out during an audit.) It would also be nice to have my tendency to notice and document everything that is out of technical compliance with a ruleset be seen as an asset instead of a character flaw.

    I have no idea how to get started in that kind of job, though, or what parts of it I’m not seeing now and wouldn’t like.

    1. irene adler*

      Might visit ASQ.com and look at their materials on auditing.
      Auditing is a big part of quality assurance in a number of industries: biotech, medical device, pharma, automotive, hospitals, financial, food, manufacturing etc.
      If what you read on the website intrigues you, might seek out your local ASQ section and ask to talk to those who are auditors. They can give you a first-hand idea of what’s involved.

    2. irene adler*

      The only thing that I don’t like about auditing, is when folks get emotional over it.
      Sometimes folks feel violated that you are auditing their process or their product. So they get territorial or they cry.
      And, some execs get angry over the findings you make.
      For the most part, folks are good with it. They like that an auditor documents that they are following procedure correctly or that their dept. has no major findings (remember, you have to document the good things too!).

  144. Emyn Nefydd*

    Just a little vent – shout out to my floor manager who, in response to issues with the service level of our calls, told us all that we weren’t to take any of our breaks, weren’t to go off calls for any reason and we should do overtime to catch up, including those who specifically worked on the Easter weekend to have a half-day today. They then also proceeded to shame our admin team for doing the thing they’re paid to do instead of taking calls. It’s not our fault you haven’t hired enough people to go on the phones. /o\

  145. Audrey Carlson*

    Does anybody have experience running a small side business while looking for a new full time job? I have a hobby turned side gig (I make and sell skincare products on Etsy, which feels so silly to say) and am debating the merits of even mentioning this in interviews. There’s a lot of transferrable skills that come with owning your own business (marketing, organization, social media management, bookkeeping, etc) even a very small one, but I worry that this A. Sounds silly and B. Raises questions about my dedication to my full time job. I am able to maintain this business with my weekend time and have no desire to make it my full time gig, but am I right in thinking that the cons greatly outweigh the pros of mentioning this? I don’t want to skip something that could help me stand out in a good way, but I’m really not sure that’s what this would do.

    1. CM*

      I agree with you — I wouldn’t mention this. I disagree that it sounds silly, but I do think it raises questions about your dedication. If you really feel like you need to mention it, maybe you could frame it as something you focused more on in the past, like, “In 2015 I started a side business making and selling skincare products, and I learned…”

    2. Kobayashi*

      I have a volunteer side gig that involves a lot of high level work. I leave it off my resume. My advice is leave off your Etsy side business. If you’re applying for a job that’s very closely related (like online marketing), then it’s something you MIGHT be able to reference if you get an interview, but even then I’d be cautious. It’s really hard to quantify how relevant that is. For example, there’s no real accountability in an Etsy side business and no way to objectively measure your performance outside of sales (and unless your sales are so awesome you could practically quite your job, it’s not going to be that impressive professionally). A lot of people have Etsy side businesses, and if you’re using that instead of the more normal career roles you’ve had, it might give a hiring manager pause.

      1. Aud*

        Thank you! This was a “sometimes friends give bad advice” situation so I appreciate the reassurance that yes, my gut is right on this one. I think it might have been relevant if I had an employment gap but I don’t, so I just… have better things to talk about.

    3. Natalie*

      Huh, my experience has been the complete opposite of the other comments thus far. I’m an accountant (in-house) and I have a side gig doing bookkeeping/consulting for a small business. My sidework is on my resume and something I’ve discussed in interviews and it’s never been a negative that I’m aware of. I’ve been asked by recruiters once or twice about how much time it takes up but they seem to accept my answer as truthful (it’s 10-12 hours a month, max).

      The fact that the sidework is squarely in my field probably makes a difference. Side work is also reasonably common for accountants, which I’m sure makes a difference as well. So this is probably a “know your industry” situation.

      1. Aud*

        Thank you! With this advice I think I would bring it up if a position involved social media or marketing, but otherwise leave it out of the conversation. Thank you for ypur perspective, I appreciate it!

      2. Kobayashi*

        Your side gig is a bit different because you’re doing it for a small business and it’s in line with your main career. In essence, it’s like you’re working two jobs, for two different businesses. That’s very different than a side Etsy business you run yourself selling products. Your bookkeeping client could fire you, for example, if they aren’t happy with you. Your client can be a reference as to the type and quality of your work. (On an unrelated side note: darn my typo — “quit” your job, not “quite” your job!) :)

  146. Kimmy Schmidt*

    There was a thread a few weeks ago about teaching students about life skills or adulting. Anyone remember which week? Or have any more suggestions?

    I’m creating an “Adulting 101” guide for students at my university that will include resources for things like cooking, health, finances, and organization.

    1. FD*

      Communication would be a great one! A lot of people don’t learn how to advocate positively for themselves (both professionally and personally).

    2. CM*

      Housing stuff — you can talk about how to find and rent an apartment, deposits, landlords, real estate brokers, figuring out how much you can afford, whether you want to live solo or have roommates, etc.

      I also second FD — I recommend basic negotiation skills for everyone, always. How to assert yourself, have difficult conversations, and handle conflict in a constructive way.

      Also, for health, please include mental health if that’s not already on your list. It’s really difficult to know what to do when your mental health is suffering.

      1. Kimmy Schmidt*

        Oh absolutely! I have currently created a very bare bones outline and the only things I have for health are “mental health” and “insurance”.

      2. FD*

        Ooh, another one–credit. Not just the “credit cards can ruin your life” scare talk, but the basics of how credit scores work, etc. A lot of young adults aren’t getting credit cards at all, and while that may mean they’re trying to to run up big debts, it also means that when they’re trying to get their first apartment they have no credit at all, which can actually make it harder to get a place.

        1. Clisby*

          Yes – when our daughter was a college sophomore or junior, we advised her to get a credit card in her own name, use it a few times a month, and pay it all off every month. Nothing big – groceries, gas, a meal now and then, to build a credit history. When she graduated and moved to a different city for graduate school, she had no credit problems in renting an apartment, signing up for utilities, etc. (We would have been happy to cosign for her, but that wasn’t necessary.) And try renting a car without a credit card.

    3. Me*

      For the love of all that’s holy how to turn off the water – for toilets, sinks, tubs etc.
      Also how to “fix” a running toilet. Not the whole break the tools out, but at least the remove the lid and adjust so the valve is closed.

      My kid was the only person an a party that could do either.

      Also recommend as a parent, if you are fixing something that you include your kid.

    4. buttrue???*

      How to use the disposal and how to reset. Do not put egg shells in it (difficult to breakdown at the sewage plants) Ironing even though few things need this any more. Dry cleaning – what and how often.

      1. FD*

        30-something…I had no idea you shouldn’t use the disposal on egg shells. Thanks for sharing!

      2. Seven hobbits are highly effective, people*

        They may also need “how to tell if a sink has a disposal and what you should do with stuff that would otherwise go down a disposal if your sink doesn’t have one”. This was a major problem in my dorm-living days. We’d get kids from houses where kitchen sinks had disposals, and our shared dorm kitchens did not. The sinks would be constantly clogged because those students did not understand that sinks are not magic food-eating holes and you can’t dump things down them. They’d even remove the drain filters so that their food would fit down the sink…

        1. Clisby*

          Or there is a disposal, it goes on the blink, and they don’t know that one common fix is to use an allen wrench to free it up. Possibly even the allen wrench that came with the disposal.

    5. NotAPirate*

      How to handle taxes
      Where to get more information on mortgages and suchlike
      Whether or not you need insurance for XYZ
      Retirement savings plans

      1. Clisby*

        Retirement plans: Understand that, for example, if your employer matches your 401K contributions up to 3% of your salary, then for heaven’s sake do your best to put 3% of your salary in. It’s an instant 100% return on investment.

    6. Seven hobbits are highly effective, people*

      Electricity 101: houses have breaker boxes. These let you shut off power in an emergency (not common – the whole point is that they’re supposed to trip automatically if needed) or if installing/repairing certain kinds of appliances (you should probably already know this if you think you’re ready to take apart and repair an oven, though), and are where you need to go if the power suddenly goes off in your kitchen right after you tried to run the toaster and the microwave at the same time (common).

      In general, for anything coming into the living space (electricity, gas, water), you need to know how to get it to stop coming in (breaker box, shutoff values) and who you are supposed to call if it’s not coming in anymore or coming in in too many ways.

      It’s also helpful to have an idea of which things are “call the emergency service people at 3 am” things (such as a gas leak you can’t shut off) and which things are “call a regularly-scheduled and much cheaper repair person to deal with tomorrow during business hours” things (sewer issues unless they’re flooding living space and won’t stop doing so – it’s much cheaper to go hang out at an all-night diner with their own restrooms for the rest of the night than it is to call the kind of plumber who will clear a clogged line at 3am).

      1. Cog in the Machine*

        As an addendum to the above, if you happen to be in an area where it is both applicable and a concern, try to get them to tell the difference between an actual skunk and the added scent in natural gas.

      2. Clisby*

        Yes. And believe me, young people are not the only ones who need to know this. I’m 65, and have had repairmen who are grateful that I can show them to the breaker box, the water shutoff, and the gas shutoff. From what I can gather, there are people way past the teen years who don’t know these basic things.

    7. E*

      How to balance a checkbook and basic budgeting of paycheck. So many folks don’t grasp the concept of saving back money for annual expenses or such.

    8. Mimmy*

      Any chance this 40-something adult could get a copy?? :P

      My suggestion: It may fall under communication, but a good topic could be how to set up your own appointments and other arrangements, such as for travel or putting together a party.

      Basic independent skills would also be good, like grocery shopping and (as mentioned already), personal finances.

    9. Owler*

      Why saving money in your 20s is a good idea (compound interest) and how to do so (if your work offers a 401K, put as much as you can into it).
      Cleaning a home: how often to do routine tasks, like changing sheets and towels, vacuuming, and wiping down a bathroom. (Especially key is learning how to share these tasks if you are living with a roommate or moved back in with your parents.)

  147. Ace in the Hole*

    How do you ask a professional contact to meet up for some networking?

    Someone I’m acquainted with professionally (but not close to) told me I’m welcome to get in touch with her for career advice. She currently has my dream job and since I’m going back to school I’d love to pick her brain about education/certifications. But I’ve never done this before…. I’m very new to office type “career” work.

    Is it weird to email-invite her to coffee? Any specific etiquette I should be aware of? And is this a thing you’d normally do during business hours, or on the weekend?

    1. CM*

      Not weird at all. You should also offer a phone call if she’s too busy to meet in person. Normally you would do it during business hours. You should make it convenient for her, since she’s doing you a favor.

      You could say this:
      Hi ___. I appreciate your offer to give me some career advice! Now that I’m going back to school, I’d love to pick your brain about education and certifications. Do you have time to have coffee and talk with me sometime in the next few weeks? Good times for me are generally any weekday between 1 and 4 p.m. [or offer some wide ranges of dates and times]. I’m happy to meet anywhere that’s convenient for you, or also open to having a phone call if you don’t have time to meet in person.
      Thanks,
      Ace in the Hole.

      1. CM*

        A few other things:

        When you’re at the coffee shop, offer to pay for the coffee and say that since she’s doing you a favor by giving you advice, you’d like to at least buy her coffee. But if she says no, she’ll pay, let her — just say thank you and don’t insist.

        And after your meeting — could be the next day or the next week — send a short thank you email that includes one or two things you found particularly helpful, especially if there’s some piece of advice you were able to use right away.

  148. Semaj*

    Question about lateral colleagues and age weirdness.

    I’m in a three person team with a co-worker, Jane, who reports to the same supervisor as I do. Jane and I don’t mesh super well, but I think (hope) we’re the only ones who realize that as we behave appropriately and socially get along fine.

    Jane and I are lateral in terms of hierarchy, but my position is more specialized than hers (think Admin Assistant vs. Teapot Representative). My supervisor has discussed a Team Lead role for me as a way of easing into supervisory experience, but this hasn’t materialized yet. I have to work carefully with Jane because she often argues with my suggestions, despite my longer tenure at this organization and the skills that I was hired for. We’re a collaborative office so I let it go and just focus on communicating my ideas openly and discussing everything.

    I’ve noticed lately that, whenever she can reasonably work it into conversation – Jane points out that we’re the same age. Is it weird that I feel like this is some sort of challenge from her? I don’t expect her to be diminutive just because she’s an admin (I’ve been the admin before, I know how it is), but I do think she challenges me an uncomfortable amount of times. Not that I’m above being disagreed with, certainly, but often it’s on very low-stakes things. Am I looking into this too much?

    1. Kathenus*

      I hope this doesn’t come out the wrong way, but it’s possible that Jane is picking up on cues that you are considering yourself senior to her and is pushing back on this since at this time you are lateral colleagues and you do not have a lead or supervisory role over here. Some of the language in your post – your position is more specialized, possible future Lead position, your longer tenure and skills hired for, just because she’s an admin – comes across as if you do think your position is not lateral to hers but is in some way above hers. Maybe you can both find ways to reframe your relationship with looking at each other with respect to your individual positions/histories/skills, versus looking at what’s different in your roles.

      1. Semaj*

        I appreciate your input, and it is possible I’m not viewing this the right way. But.. I am senior to her. I have a higher title, a higher pay grade, an office. I’m not saying I walk around wielding authority or giving instructions, I don’t. But when we’re working on a project that is in my background, that I have years of experience with, and that I’ve been asked to lead by our supervisor – I don’t expect to be arguing about every single point of it with someone who is in an entry-level position in the organization. Sure, we report to the same supervisor, but does that truly make us on equal footing? I can think of many examples where say every admin from assistant to senior to executive assistant are all reporting to the same boss, but I certainly don’t think of all of those people as being lateral.

        1. Kathenus*

          Apologies if I misinterpreted, I thought that you mentioned that you were lateral to her in your post. All of your frustrations seem reasonable, but if there is conflict in certain situations around projects like you describe, could your joint supervisor be more overt in assigning roles and responsibilities so that she knows that you are lead on that project? Clarity there, along with trying to build a two-way respectful relationship between you, might help moderate this over time.

    2. MuseumChick*

      I think this is one of those things that is hard to say either way without see you two interact first hand. I think you strategy of doing your work, letting her attitude roll off you back as much as possible is the best way to go. Maybe touch base with your boss about a timeline for the Team Lead role.

    3. WellRed*

      It’s weird that she points out the age thing. I fully expected you to say you’re significantly younger and she was having a hard time (it would still be weird to point out b/c your age shouldn’t matter).

    4. Beta*

      Put her on a mental mute button. Disengage from her and don’t pick up the gauntlet for any weird status battle cues coming from her. Treat her politely but just as required for your job and no more.

    5. valentine*

      Ask her. “You keep saying that, Jane. What does it mean to you?” Then: “What’s your objective?”

      Even if you were on the same level, age has nothing to do with it. How and why does she even know?

  149. Eric*

    I got a weird recruiting email from a guy who said he was a cofounder of a startup, but his LinkedIn says he’s actually just a recruiter who specifically works with early stage startups. Has anyone seen anything like this before? Should I have said something about that?

    1. CM*

      I would ignore his email… that sounds really sketchy. If someone starts off with an easily verifiable lie, do you really want to work with them? If you’re interested, though, you could always say “LinkedIn says you are a recruiter for startups, are you also the cofounder of your own startup?”

      1. irene adler*

        If the job looks like something you’d be interested in, then get clarification. Maybe the LinkedIn profile hasn’t been updated in a while.

        1. Environmental Compliance*

          That was my first thought, honestly – he just hasn’t updated his LinkedIn yet, which to be fair for a recruiter is still a strange thing. But I didn’t think it would be a straight out lie from first read.

      2. CatCat*

        I don’t understand why this is a lie.

        You can’t have co-founded a start up in your career and then also now work as a recruiter focusing on startups? Why is that weird?

        1. Eric*

          Because the guy sent me a LinkedIn invite after he emailed me, and it turns out he’s not actually a founder at that particular place. Despite his email name literally being “Andy Thompson Co-Founder of CoolStartup” (not the real name but you get me).

          I didn’t point anything out, but it is weird that someone would make such an easily falsifiable lie just to maybe get a few more clicks on their email.

    2. Bex*

      This doesn’t really sound weird to me at all…. tons of founders/co-founders still work other jobs until their own company is ready to fly. Not every startup gets funding immediately; not all founders can afford to self-fund until they are profitable.

      1. Eric*

        I didn’t explain this well in my first post, but this guy set his name on his email to say that he’s the co-founder of the specific startup, when he isn’t. I found that out because he sent me a LinkedIn invite.

  150. Need Help Thinking*

    BACKGROUND: I’ve been Working for Company ABC for long time. We’re in expansion mode: every one has more than enough work and works hard. There is not really enough staff to get everything done we should be doing. I have a key position supporting senior management, with no staff. I’m supposed to convince other managers and directors that their staff needs to do more tasks because of Regulations. In some companies my job is a C-level position. Due to blah blah blah, this year there were no bonuses and no raises. I’m very autonomous, set my own priorities (mostly), and share an office with one other person. Company is midsized.

    THE SITUATION: Company D ( large) calls me out of the blue to interview for a job that consists mostly of doing one small portion of my current job. They want someone independent, experienced, knowledgeable etc etc. I could do the job. After 6-12 months I may well be bored. I went to the interview because I’ve been so annoyed with the “too much work with no end in sight and no additional compensation forthcoming”. I let them know I wouldn’t mind if they modified the job responsibilities .

    My company will panic if I resign. I’m Going on vacation and expecting an offer at that time. Who knows if they’ll sweeten the pot by modifying the open position and/or offering a ton of money but…

    What questions should I be asking myself?

    1. MuseumChick*

      I think you should be asking yourself if you can deal with the “to much work with no end in sight and no additional compensation” situation at your current job for a X many years. I understanding being worried you will be board at Company D, but if you get additional compensation and they are better staffed, you could grow that role over time.
      I would also consider 1) How much money will company D have to offer you to make it worth while leaving your current job? 2) How much many and what changes would make you stay with company ABC? (Of course you would want to get this all in writing with time lines).

    2. post it*

      Would being bored be worse than your current scenario? (Also–important distinction IMO–is it just that you would have a smaller scope of responsibility, or is it also that you would have less autonomy? Whatever the answer is, can you live with that?) Even if they don’t modify the position right now, is there a possibility they might do so later on? And/or can they offer professional development, path to promotion, etc that might be interesting even if your day to day work isn’t?

      Honestly, I would assume the job duties don’t change much in reality, even if they say something else–presumably they’re hiring because this is the shape of the gap they have, you know?

    3. WellRed*

      I’d worry more about how important autonomy is to you and whether you’ll still have it at new job. Your current company deserves to panic.

  151. Will*

    I’ve been asked to figure out how to better retain my junior staff, who often want to move from our more routine/process/data-driven work into regular management consulting project roles within the firm. I’ve also been told they haven’t been telling me the whole story about their interests, where they have told others that they want to move into consulting but haven’t told me. Obviously, I can’t help them move into the role they want if they aren’t honest with me.

    So two questions:
    1) Is this a “grass is greener on the other side” issue where I should just assume they will want to move into the other role and plan for it?
    2) How can I make them feel comfortable enough to be honest with me?

    1. Anastasia Beaverhousen*

      Because you say this is junior staff, there’s a strong chance that it’s not a ‘grass is greener’ issue, it’s just… they’re junior. They don’t want to stay junior. They want to gain experience and seniority. People don’t often want to stay in lower-level positions long-term. So one way to make them more comfortable is asking them candidly about their goals (not in a job interview – maybe performance review?) and demonstrating that the company is interested in helping them meet those goals – giving them additional responsibilities and growth, if possible.

      If you really just want them to stick to the routine work and don’t want to offer them additional responsibilities, don’t be surprised if they want to move on.

    2. Me*

      It’s totally normal for people to want to progress in their careers. Moving from something routine to consulting fits this bill. It’s unreasonable to expect people want to remain stagnant. It’s not the grass is greener, its the next rung in the ladder.

      As far as the second part, you can’t force employees to disclose their career aspirations. There’s enough boss horror stories that any sane person would usually want to play it close to the chest. They only way around that is to acknowledge your staffers are in entry level type roles and progression is the norm and to be expected.

      Theyre staying within the firm, so I’m baffled why this is being viewed as some kind of retention issue.

      1. Ms. Taylor Sailor*

        It’s a retention issue if they’re jumping around too quickly, but totally normal if it’s a year or more. Someone must think people aren’t staying in these positions for very long if it’s been brought up to Will, but they also may have unrealistic expectations. Though I’m not sure what the point is of someone telling Will that the junior staff don’t want to tell Will what their aspirations are. Unless they don’t think Will is approachable, that’s not really relevant information.

        Will, what is the average amount of time someone stays in these roles?

        1. Me*

          Yes but if they’re qualified to move up in the company in less than a year, I still can’t really see that as an issue.

          If they were leaving the company, it would be a different response.

          1. Ms. Taylor Sailor*

            Well, it’s an issue in the sense that if there’s a revolving door of people in these positions who are all leaving after less than a year, that puts a strain on that department to continually have to refill these positions and train people that frequently. (Granted, now they have the information that many people DON’T stay for that long and can re-calibrate.) Obviously that’s not the employees’ problems and it’s probably benefiting the organization as a whole if they’re the best people for those higher jobs, but it’d still be beneficial to Will and their department to have people in those roles who may be a better fit for them and with a little more longevity.

            This isn’t what Will is asking about, but it’s definitely not ideal if it’s happening that frequently.

            1. 1234*

              But in some industries, this is normal. Some companies have an “up or out” policy and they don’t expect you to stay in a junior role for more than a year.

              Is it wrong to think more about the hiring process and find people who are “less ambitious to move up?” My sister mentioned that at one job interview, she somehow found out that the interviewer thought she was too ambitious and they wanted someone who would be happy doing the job that they were assigned with less room to grow.

              1. Ms. Taylor Sailor*

                I’m sure it’s absolutely normal for some industries. I just figured Will would’ve mentioned it if that was the case, otherwise I don’t know why they’re being approached about it like it’s an issue.

                But absolutely they should think about the hiring process (and I don’t think anyone disagrees there). Some people don’t want to have more responsibility and want something low-key.

      2. post it*

        Agree so much with that last point. The alternative to them moving to other areas of the company is likely to be that they leave the company entirely, not that they just stay put. Especially your strongest performers.

    3. Kathenus*

      It’s great that you’re asking yourself these questions. I think your #2 question is the key. And that’s something that can be built over time with you being really open with them that you’d like to know what their career goals are and how you can help them to achieve them. Then if you consistently do support your staff when you get this information they’ll build up that trust that you are sincere in this.

      One question I have though is that your two goals seem to be somewhat in opposition – how to better retain your staff, and how to find out if they want to move into other roles so you can help them. If the first one is your main goal, getting them to tell you their career goals could be helpful if you could find ways to help fulfill them in their current roles, but what happens then if what they want means leaving to another role?

      This could also be a good time to look at how you select your staff – what skills and qualifications would you want in people who want to stay in this role longer-term? Should the job description or posting be changed to better help you find people for whom this is the job they want?

      Thinking about what goal(s) you’re really hoping to achieve with this will be a key into how to move forward.

    4. Will*

      Thanks for the advice, everyone! This really was helpful.

      I should have clarified, there is a path of progressing in their current department, but they are essentially choosing a sideways move into a different department instead of moving up in their own track. I really need someone committed to moving up in my department so I can get some of my work off my plate since right now we just have very junior and very senior people. The very junior work is rather routine, but after a couple of years, they can move up into managing new junior staff who will do the more routine work instead of them, but only if they stay on this track.

      We’ve found that after about 2 years they are looking to move. And it really takes two years to master this work, so as soon as they are ready for more responsibilities, they are asking to move.

      1. post it*

        Ahhhhh that’s a different issue, then. In that case I think your issues are: 1) Screening applicants better for interest in your particular department, 2) possibly making sure they know there’s a way up in your current department, if you’re not already, and 3) making sure there are entry-level roles in the other departments–because if your department is the only place to get a foot in the door, that’s what people are going to do.

  152. DottyBlue240*

    I need throw out a HUGE thank you to Allison for all of the “how to ask for a raise” resources she has compiled on this site. For the first time in my life I negotiated and received a 22% raise after only 1 year on the job: I blew the requirements of my position out of the water and took on many added responsibilities. I was able to provide a clear list of accomplishments as justification that led to minimal push back (just a couple of clarifying questions) from the CFO and HR.

    Thank you!

  153. Kinda A Newbie*

    A few weeks ago, I interviewed for a position in a company that I was interested in. About a week after the interview, I reached out to get an update on the decision for the position. As a response, they told me that while they had chosen to go with someone else, since they saw me as qualified, they would look for future opportunities for me and that I could always reach out if there is another position within the company that I was interested in. When I checked for positions a few days ago, I noticed that they had reposted the same position along with some similar positions.
    Maybe I’m overthinking things, but should I approach the person about possibly being considered for it? I don’t want to come off as desperate (and admittedly I am desperate) for asking to be considered for the same position, but I think it would be nice to have someone who could advocate for me. How should I approach this?

    1. CM*

      I wouldn’t. It’s only been a few weeks — they haven’t forgotten you exist. They would reach out to you if they wanted you for the position. Also, reposting after a few weeks doesn’t necessarily mean the other person fell through. Some companies keep positions posted for a while, or repost them periodically.

    2. Kathenus*

      I think you could email the person you spoke to and just say you notice the position was reposted, let them know you’re still interested in being considered if appropriate, and asking if you should re-apply or your previous application was sufficient. Whether or not this is the right approach might be dependent upon more details of the response they gave you after the last round – did you get the impression that you were a strong candidate for that particular position but they chose someone stronger, or that they just in general felt you might be qualified for a future position of some type?

      I don’t disagree with CM that they haven’t forgotten you exist, and you absolutely wouldn’t want to pester them, but personally as a hiring manager I would be fine with a one time check in on whether or not to re-apply since it was a new posting of the position.

  154. anony-Nora*

    My workplace is toxic, like chest-pain-from-stress every morning unhealthy, a concrete manifestation of the old line about ‘you don’t have to be able to outrun the lion, just the person next to you’ since the industry is circling the drain and nobody wants to be the next one fired.

    I’ve been actively looking for new jobs, even had some interviews. The last interview I had, I thought went really well, and in the personalized rejection email they sent afterward they said I was one of their top choices and offered to let me know if any other positions open up in their department. Nicest rejection I’ve gotten… but still a rejection, so still kinda discouraging even while encouraging.

    Sending strength to my fellow job-seekers and bad-environment workers who are dealing with mental health struggles, is my point, I guess. It’s tough.

    1. Even Steven*

      Hang in there, anony-Nora! It will get better! I have been in your position, and I know how slow & scary & frustrating it is to look for work, to be stuck in a toxic dungeon and to get rejection letters. Don’t stop, though, because the reward is coming! Someday soon you will arrive at NewJob, look around you, exhale, and realize that the hard part is over. Cheering for you!!!

    2. Beetle*

      I went through the exact same thing yesterday! As a person with mental health issues, this whole interviewing and waiting had been nerve wracking… and I had been putting my life on hold for this. Now I can finally move on.

  155. Carrie Fisher's Middle Finger*

    Higher education (student affairs/staff/non-faculty) folks who might be hanging out around here: how long has it taken from verbal/e-mail offer to signed paperwork when you moved into a new position at the same institution?

    I was offered and accepted a position on the 5th, and was told they wanted me to start May 3rd. … that’s not going to happen, because the paperwork is “hung up in leadership’s office,” but no one will give me any more information than that. No new start date, no estimate, just “it’s out of our hands, be patient.” I will need the full two weeks to set everything up so that all of our students are taken care of before they hire someone new in the position I am exiting, so this is going to become A Production very quickly.

    The longer this carries on, the more at risk I am of having to out myself to my (frankly, abusive) department head as leaving without anything actually signed (a big no-no!), because eventually I’m going to have to start letting folks know I won’t be here as we start planning for late summer/fall events. I’ve let the new department know this, and they seem sympathetic, but I don’t know how long is too long to wait.

    1. Gloucesterina*

      Hi Carrie Fisher’s Middle Finger (excellent handle!),

      That seems very weird! A colleague of mine who just started a staff position (albeit at a new institution) had two weeks between accepting an offer (and presumably finalizing the paperwork) and their start date.

      I’m in a much more low-key version of this scenario as I type. I received a verbal offer for a staff position last Friday, verbally accepted the offer on Tuesday. I was told that it would probably take a couple days to generate what they call an appointment letter (as opposed to an offer letter, that one reviews and then signs, which is what I had been expecting to receive after having negotiated the details of the verbal offer. I’m not sure if that’s just how this particular university handles staff positions, but there you are.)

      But I have a start date, for one, and also have a few months of lead time til my start date, so I’m unconcerned at having no paperwork several days later. I can only extend my sympathies! The wheels of institutional bureaucracies are a slow-moving and mysterious thing. I hope you get your paperwork soon :(

  156. Camellia*

    My daughter posted this meme on FB and I can’t stop laughing and nodding my head in painful agreement:

    Men tend to choose high paying professions like doctor, engineer, and CEO, while women naturally go towards lower paying careers like female doctor, female engineer, and female CEO.

    1. The Doctor is In*

      That would be funnier if it weren’t true! Thanks for the laugh from a female MD.

  157. Lionheart*

    Looking for some advice from some techy types.
    I’m an international education consultant. I’m good at it, and pretty well known in my field. For a long time I’ve been considering trying to break into the educational technology sector, but I’m not sure the best way to do it.
    Like everyone, I have some great ideas, but lack the technical know-how to make them happen. I did study Java in college 15 years ago, so I know just enough to know that my ideas won’t come cheap, and that my skillset is woefully inadequate.
    I am still really determined to make my ideas reality, or to contribute to the field in some way. I am slowly putting an Adobe XD prototype together. I have looked in to the feasibility of starting my own company and I don’t think it’s the right path for me. I think what I’d love to do is work or consult for a company already making stuff, and use my teaching and curriculum expertise to help them make their stuff better.
    Here’s my question: how realistic is this goal? And what is the best way to go about it? Are there any other avenues I’ve not considered? Thanks for your advice :)

    1. Nicki Name*

      What general type of idea do you have? Is it “here is an underserved segment and I’d like to make the product that fills the gap”? Or more an “everyone’s product does X the wrong way and I want to help them do it the right way”?

      1. Lionheart*

        Good question. İ think it’s closer to option B. İ would like to work on tools to help develop research skills. There are a lot of apps out there that make skills like note taking or citing sources EASİER, but İ want to create something that focuses on building these important skills, not just supporting them, if that makes sense?

        1. Gloucesterina*

          In terms of building your network, academic librarians could be a good resource for you as they’re in the business of being an in-person resource for the skills you seem to be interested in (developing research questions, locating sources, evaluating sources, integrating sources).

    2. alphabet soup*

      I’m a teensy bit familiar with the elearning field, since my work is tangentially related. Is elearning what you have in mind when you say educational technology? As in, delivering courses online? If so, you don’t need a lot of tech expertise to get started. You just need a good course authoring software/LMS, which takes care of a lot of the tech for you.

      But maybe I’m misunderstanding what you’re interested in, since you mentioned prototyping your own idea.

      It also sounds like you’d be interested in instructional design, since you mention wanting to use your teaching and curriculum experience. Since you already have the experience, it seems like it wouldn’t be too hard for you to make that kind of move, especially if you can use some course authoring software to build up a mini-portfolio.

      1. Lionheart*

        Thanks for the tips. I think I must be using the wrong terminology (so much still to learn!). I would like to create web-based apps, chrome extensions, things like that

    3. Bex*

      If you’re interested in EdTech, start by making an AngelList profile and see if there isn anything posted that fits what you’re looking for.

      Another option might be to look at big foundations that are funding in the education space (there are a LOT of them) to see if there is a senior program officer position that would fit your experience.

  158. Anon for thIS*

    1. Yesterday during take the kids to work day, a coworker mentioned he’s giving his kids Mandarin/Chinese lessons because it’s the business language in the world. When I remarked I hoped to do the same with French/Italian (due to cultural heritage), coworker scoffed and said anything except Mandarin wasn’t worth learning. (My background is part Chinese, he’s not Chinese at all). Agree or disagree? I’d be happy with future kids just learning a new language period–to expand horizons, acquire empathy.

    2. The day before that, I went through a door different from the one I usually go through and the lady at the front desk kept yelling at me. Turns out she wanted me to show her my work badge. So I got flustered but quickly complied. I then saw she was talking to another worker so I badged myself in to my own office. Later, said worker quietly accosted me (I thought it was to say hi). Instead, she said the front desk lady ranted to worker about me for a few straight seconds because I hadn’t said “thank you.” I said it was my first time entering that way (new hire), I had no idea, that I’d remember. After worker left, I cried at my cubicle because of hormones and that I was so overworked, and the only time someone stopped by to say hi it felt like she was twisting the knife. Thank God the rest of this week has been more tolerable. I and the other new hires noticed that everyone here is selectively social–gathering for happy hours but otherwise keeping to themselves….What do you think of the front desk lady? Is there anything I could’ve done different?

    1. Emilitron*

      Ugh, I hate when people make their own unwritten rules then get angry with you for not following them! No, you did nothing wrong. On another day when neither of you is upset, you can come in that door and do the badging her way, and say hi. kind of talking yourself through it – “Hi! So I show you the badge right, and then you do the door? I’m so new, the first time I came through here I had no idea how it was supposed to work haha! have a nice day!”

      1. valentine*

        You’re way too invested in one or both of them being mad at you. (I can’t tell with the second person.) You seem isolated and maybe lonely at work, so, can you reach out to people or just accept that work will be just work and you’ll do your socializing outside of it?

        If security lady’s a shouter, I would tell her my brain processes shouting as static, so I’m highly unlikely to know that she’s even addressing me, much less what she’s shouting.

    2. uranus wars*

      1) I think learning a 2nd language is an individual/family choice and can be desired for an entire host of reasons. Co-workers reasons are different than yours and while I think he didn’t need to say it I wouldn’t let it bother you – just see it as a difference of opinion.

      2) I am not sure what you thank the lady for? Checking your badge, letting you in? Do you have a feel for the culture yet? Or does she think you should have apologized for getting flustered?

      I am sorry it was a hard day for you.

    3. Ms. Taylor Sailor*

      1. That’s so obnoxious. I’m childless, but I’m 100% with you that if I had kids, I’d want them to learn any new language of their choosing if they really wanted to. I took Japanese for my language requirement in undergrad. My mom tried hard to convince me to take Spanish (which I had as a subject every year from Kindergarten to 11th grade), but I don’t regret my choice at all, even though I’ve barely used it since.

      2. …what? Believe me, you did nothing wrong. Unless you were looked like you were breaking into the building, yelling was totally unnecessary. And it’s ridiculous that she’d get that worked up over not being thanked (for what? She asked YOU to show her your badge and you obviously didn’t need her to get into your office). And it’s ridiculous that your co-worker was enraged enough on her behalf to confront you after the fact. These people are ridiculous and sound like they don’t have more important things to worry about. Best of luck at your new workplace and here’s hoping it improves.

    4. Rainy days*

      What a ridiculous perspective on language learning. Most people who learn a language won’t learn it well enough to use it for business, so as a professional language teacher (not of Mandarin), I can say you should really have other reasons for learning. Empathy, curiosity, travel, and the joy of learning are much better reasons in my opinion.

      1. WellRed*

        Yes, the way to encourage learning is not the way your coworker is insisting. As to the other issue, I’d look at that coworker who stopped by your office as, not twisting the knife, but giving you useful information about the front desk person with the chip on her shoulder.

    5. Koala dreams*

      1. Languages are always worth learning, in my opinion. Also, if you look for payback, the first phrases are usually the ones that you get the most out of. People are often delighted to be greeted in their native language, even if you have to change to the majority language for the rest of the conversation.
      Furthermore, the language of business depends a lot of where you do business. Mandarin Chinese is more useful in China, French is more useful in France (and other French-speaking countries).

  159. Neosmom*

    A very new customer service rep saw me knitting at lunch earlier this week. Today, he came to me asking if I could sew up the torn seam in a lining on his jacket.

    Arrrrrrgggggghhhh!!!! I feel better.

    I told him “no” and suggested that a dry cleaner providing tailoring services was an ideal option.

    2. Environmental Compliance*

      High five for knitting! I feel ya on the sewing request. I get that somewhat often. Oh, you do [insert craft here]? Can you make me/fix this/do this using [totally different craft]? Usually for free?

      I can appreciate someone remembering a tidbit about me, and thinking of me, but no, I still can’t crochet a pillowcase, thanks.

  160. Tin Man*

    Just venting: New team lead six months ago. Glinda’s very into touching people (3 other people have mentioned it), and I’m touch avoidant. Grit my teeth and it’s eased up some, but it was a bad start. It’s only gotten worse.

    Glinda’s very into ‘team building’ by sneering at people not on ‘her team’. Her sneers varies day to day – sometimes our boss is ‘spineless’, sometimes our execs are ‘panicking’. The sneers are usually behind people’s backs, but I had an exec come to me and ask, two weeks ago – Glinda’d been a little too openly hostile. So far, six people have talked to me about not liking to work with her, all at my level or one up. Two levels up loves her.

    Glinda’s saved money for our group (about .5% annual spend), first by finding some mis-allocated costs, but second by slowing production, which is starting to reduce sales. And she claimed some savings that aren’t real – the ‘shipments’ she counted as having cost were internal movements, no cost. That one was an honest mistake, but it happened because Glinda didn’t pay attention to my notes (written and verbal) on how to look at the data. She’s continuing to include it in her calcs and discussions – execs think it’s real. I’ve explained to a couple of operational people that program isn’t going to generate savings, but the message isn’t up the chain yet.

    I just got back from vacation, and in 5 days, Glinda’s spent 3 meetings talking about ‘how much great work Tin Man has done’ (I bet someone commented on the sneering and she’s trying to counter it with public praise), and uuugghhh – my ears are around my shoulders. One on one, she’s still sneering – no, that exec I’ve worked with for over a decade is NOT a ‘weak link’ ‘holding back progress.’ He’s someone who knows her data / analysis is wrong. And if Glinda’d ‘just die’ if I repeated that to my ‘good friends’, then maybe she shouldn’t say it.

    I’m about to start job hunting, and I’m documenting each statement (time / date / context). Not sure of the timeline for new job or sharing with my boss, but god I hate this stuff. I just hope when I tell my boss the graphic detail Glinda passed on to me about my boss’s feelings re: another problem person, he’ll recognize them and fire her. I can’t even feel bad about that – she’s awful. Thanks for reading, hope you have no Glindas!

    1. valentine*

      I’m touch avoidant. Grit my teeth and it’s eased up some, but it was a bad start.
      If you mean you’re enduring these assaults, you can stop immediately.

      Go ahead and say, “Then maybe you shouldn’t say it” or “So you won’t do this again?”

      1. Tin Man*

        They were the ‘gentle hand on the shoulder’ kind of thing that many people find ok (even the 3 who mentioned it, only 1 other did so negatively), and I didn’t want to start off on a wrong foot. She eased up after a couple of weeks, hasn’t touched me in a month, so we’re ok there.

        I don’t want to actually say ‘maybe you shouldn’t say it’ because I don’t want to expose myself as clearly ‘not on her team’. She knew she shouldn’t say it, she’s a 50+ yo seasoned professional, she doesn’t need to hear it from me.

  161. Siege*

    I was wondering if I could get a reality check on this, and then possibly some advice. I work in what’s essentially a theme park – I give short tours on jeeps that go through areas that you can’t easily get back from – you have to complete the tour route to get back to a safe place to get out of the Jeep. There are other positions as well, and for safety reasons almost all of them have to be manned at all times. I’m having a problem getting bathroom breaks. Because these things can’t be left unmanned, you have to wait for coverage before you can go. I’ll ask my shift manager a good 30-40 minutes before I get desperate, but sometimes that time comes and goes, or then a shift manager goes on break and doesn’t tell the next one, and I wait over an hour with a full bladder. Also, it’s hot and we’re talking all the time, so we have to drink lots of water.
    I’ve tried bringing this up with the shift managers, but have been mostly dismissed. I think part of the problem is most of them are men, and don’t face the same health risks or pain some of us do with holding it in.
    Is this something I need to suck up and deal with as part of the hospitality industry? Cause if so, I want to hear that now so I can get out. If this isn’t reasonable, what should I do next? Our company is at least in theory very big on safety issues, so I’m thinking about contacting our only female manager. We also have a union, but I’m not sure our reps would take me seriously. One I think definitely wouldn’t, and the other one I don’t know well. Any advice/past experience would be appreciated. Thank you!

    1. CM*

      I’m not in the hospitality industry so this may not be useful, but I would definitely talk to the female manager. Bathroom breaks are a basic health issue and if you’re in the U.S., being able to go to the bathroom is an OSHA issue.

      1. valentine*

        Look up the relevant OSHA rules and perhaps lawsuits so you have an idea of what workplaces have failed and what’s possible. There’s no good reason they don’t have a better system. I also wonder if the people with penises are peeing on the move.

    2. Emilitron*

      It sounds like it’s worth talking about ways to improve the system for everybody, your coworkers probably aren’t happy either. Maybe you could set up a way for anybody to page a shift manager to cover a break?

  162. DreamingInPurple*

    I’ve started noticing flyers on our work bulletin boards from someone who is trying to start up a bible study group at work, which would meet during the workday (most likely at lunchtime). The location isn’t mentioned, but it’s implied that it would be on our campus since we have a cafeteria and meeting spaces. In an ideal world, this wouldn’t bother me – people should be able to do what they want with their breaks – but to be honest, as an out lesbian at a site where many LGBT folks are in the closet, this is making me uncomfortable. I don’t actually care as much whether the bible study takes place as I do about the fact that it being on campus during the workday and posted up on the same bulletin boards that have information about volunteer opportunities. To me that makes it seem too much like it’s endorsed by the company, and just underscores for me how religious groups seem to be allowed to meet and share their views everywhere when our (multinational and somehow high-scoring on the Corporate Equality Index) company doesn’t even have an LGBT affinity group anywhere on the East Coast. I realize that I could probably say this in a better or more sensitive way, but this is the last of many straws for me and I’m tired of small aggressions from people at my site.

    I’m planning to look through my company’s policies on these postings, but in a general sense, do I have any standing to make a complaint?

    1. Ask a Manager* Post author

      If the company allows other groups (book clubs, women’s groups, etc.), they’re legally obligated to allow religious ones too; they’d be violating federal law by saying no to this one but not others.

      1. DreamingInPurple*

        As far as I know, our company doesn’t have restrictions on what types of unofficial clubs are ok as long as they don’t run counter to the company’s mission, but I’ve never seen any other club excluding company-official groups (like company-sponsored softball, or a volunteer group we have that bakes for senior centers) advertise on those bulletin boards. Then again, I also don’t know whether they ever asked permission to post something or just decided to put it up on their own.

      2. LaDeeDa*

        As Alison said they have to allow it if they allow all the other types of groups. I think the only way around that- and Alison could probably correct me if I am wrong- is if the group is outspoken or public (website/publications) about discrimination of any of the protected groups (sex, race, age, disability, color, creed, national origin, or religion) then you would have something concrete to take up.
        The other thing would be to look at the company policy on Affinity groups and see if they have by-laws that the group must adhere too- for example, our by-laws state that all affinity groups must be open to all employee. So our Women’s group states membership is open to all employees regardless of gender. If your company doesn’t have a policy or by-laws on Affinity groups, maybe you can bring that need to the attention of HR and Legal. (Legal handles our policies and by-laws on affinity groups)
        It sucks that you work in a place that people still have to be closeted, which means you can’t even start your own affinity group! UGGG! I hate that!!

        1. DreamingInPurple*

          Well, they don’t have to be closeted according to corporate, and I could technically start an affinity group (see my comment to CM below)… but in practice, LGBT people at my site are not comfortable being out, and starting an actual affinity group is extremely difficult. The bible study group wouldn’t be an affinity group, it’s just some unaffiliated club, but posting on the boards that are for official volunteer opportunities.

          1. LaDeeDa*

            UGG it is all so problematic. My grand boss has worked at the company for 32 years, she is a closeted lesbian. When she first began working for this company the good ‘ol boy network was so in charge that there were no women in leadership, and she was bullied to the point she is now an ineffective leader. I hate it for her. She is C-suite level, but she is still so traumatized by the late ’80s and early 90s from working for such backward male-centric company, in an extremely male-dominated industry in a conservative state, that she is paralyzed to use her knowledge, expertise, and leadership skills to do anything! I know she is brilliant- I see it in her philanthropy work, and in 1:1 conversations, but at work, she is cowed.

    2. Four lights*

      I think it depends on what the posting policy is. If they allow personal, non-work things like this and don’t ban things based on viewpoint, then I think you’re out of luck. The same for using meeting space. If religious groups get special treatment though, that could be a different story.

    3. CM*

      I see where you’re coming from and sympathize, but unless there’s a company policy about religion in the workplace, I don’t think you can do anything here. I’m assuming a lot here: that it’s individual coworkers trying to start the group, none of them are at an executive level in the company, they’re using otherwise free time to do it, there’s no pressure to join, the bulletin boards can be used by anyone about more or less anything, and the company allows people to use the cafeteria or other meeting spaces for non-work gatherings. If other individual-initiated groups exist for things like, say, book clubs or jogging clubs, and other religions and affinity groups would be welcome to do the same thing, I don’t think you can complain.

      On the other hand, if you don’t feel that others would be welcome to do the same thing, or if any of those assumptions aren’t true, I think you could complain. The question then would be whether you want to stick your neck out. You’d want to tread gently so you don’t seem anti-religion. You would also need to ask yourself: are you making assumptions about the intolerance of religious people? Could you start up an LGBT affinity group if you wanted to? You’d need good answers to these questions before complaining about the Bible study group.

      1. DreamingInPurple*

        As far as I am aware, the bulletin boards were put up for volunteer opportunities and company-sponsored events, which is one of my major gripes. However, I’m afraid of retaliation if I find out who administers them and complain to that person about inappropriate use of the boards, because I think there’s a high likelihood that they’re the poster.

        I do think there’s a lot of thinking to be done, but I can answer a few of your questions. Yes, I am assuming a level of intolerance, because it has been shown to me in this very same workplace. I realize that I need to try and separate my emotions about that – part of why my first instinct was to reach out here for advice :) I could, theoretically, start an LGBT affinity group; I even looked into it when I was hired. However, in order to start an official group I would need several other people also willing to stick their necks out, plus a corporate sponsor/champion at the senior executive level, and to have a full-on proposal for budget and activities – in other words, not likely to happen because everyone who might be involved also has their full-time job. Because the barriers to entry for affinity groups are so high within our company, the only one exists on this coast is a branch of a well-known and well-attended women’s technical organization.

        I know it’s a lot of griping, and honestly I probably won’t end up saying anything to anyone. I’m just really disappointed that a company that hypes up their corporate equality so much really does little to nothing to make a supportive environment achievable. Guess it’s time to pull myself up by my bootstraps.

        1. Qwerty*

          Rather than start with a complaint, what about just asking about the policy for the bulletin board? You stated above that you don’t know if the person who posted the bible club asked for permission or just put the notice up. Something like “Hi, what’s the policy for posting events on the bulletin board? I saw a flyer for a bible club and thought I might like to start my own club” (or “was wondering if we’d be hearing about more social groups”, etc)

          The requirements that you are talking about for starting an affinity group sound pretty similar to the requirements of getting any company-sponsored group together. Running official groups takes a lot of time and planning so it takes very committed people to keep it from fizzling out. What about starting an unofficial diversity group that meets at lunchtime? The term is broad enough that people don’t have to out themselves, but could get the ball rolling towards some cultural change.

          1. DreamingInPurple*

            Thank you! That sounds like a good way to approach it, and if I decide to say anything that is the approach I’ll take. I agree that the affinity group requirements aren’t inherently unreasonable, it’s just hard to meet them within a population that is both small and often hiding. I like the idea of an unofficial group, but I’m not sure what the purpose of the group could be that wouldn’t basically be what an affinity group does… I’ll keep thinking!

            1. Qwerty*

              I was thinking start with general inclusivity (gender, race, orientation, etc)? That could help with changing the office culture to be more welcoming, or at least help you find the people who are more willing to change. I’ve found most of the women in tech groups I’ve been a part of eventually evolve or branch off to support other demographics because there’s so much overlap between female and literally anything else, and that once people start changing their mindset on the gender barrier / gender roles, it also affects their views towards LGBT+ issues, so maybe you’d eventually get enough people together where you’d be able to get the official affinity group.

    4. Batgirl*

      Yeah I see your concern. I was a member of an online forum for a non-religious activity but I knew the site owners identified strongly as Christians. Didn’t care and enjoyed the welcome only to get fish slapped by homophobia a few months in (Not as painful as it could have been since I’m straight, but I felt tricked). Apparently I should have known because ‘Christian’.

      What was heartening was how many Christians were equally shocked and outraged, including people who identified as both gay and Christian. It’s not necessarily a Thing. It might be worth some gentle exploration to see how welcome you’d be as someone who’s out. You could say you’re researching nice verses you could use for a Christian friend’s occasion and ask if you would be welcome (you don’t necessarily have to go) or say you’ve been asked to be a godparent. You might be pleasantly reassured.

  163. Anononon*

    How do I regain motivation after burnout?

    I had a period of 6 months at work where I’d just got a promotion and because my manager was busy/often abroad with work, ended up taking on some duties that would technically be his responsibility, without really being trained for them. In addition the project was in a much worse state than thought and the team mostly inexperienced. I was extremely stressed and overworked – but did at least feel like I was doing my best and that I was mostly on top of things. I raised this repeatedly with my boss but I think he thought it was just me getting used to the position vs the workload actually being untenable.

    The idea was that I would progress to the next level (and get the actual title/formal responsibility/training) within a short time frame, and I was told ~4 months ago that being stressed was the main thing holding me back.

    It got to the point where the stress was making me sick and I thought about leaving, but after complaining to a higher up some more people were brought onto the team and things are now less manic. I don’t want to leave! (I have lots of good reasons to stay, like a lovely short commute and the fact I generally do actually like the management!)

    However I don’t feel like I’ve recovered yet. I manage ok on days where I have lots of short/easy tasks or where my time is taken up helping other people, but I’m struggling to focus on longer ones and from some of the questions my manager is asking I feel he no longer trusts me. At this point I was meant to be thinking about promotion and instead I’m coasting and finding it difficult to make my case or give any feedback on why things were so unmanageable because thinking about any of it in detail makes me cry. I’m also a bit annoyed at my progression being tied to my stress levels when I was massively dropped in at the deep end on already failing project. What do I do? I think if I’d had this team size throughout it would have been a totally different story, I wouldn’t have burnt out and I might be looking for that promotion about now.

  164. Anonymously pregnant*

    I just had a first prenatal appointment and found out I’m due a month before I thought (you can have a period while pregnant!). I could use advice on how to time telling my supervisor and trying to make arrangements for leave.

    Here’s the issue:
    -I’m on a temporary assignment to another office until early to mid-July
    -The supervisor at my regular job is leaving and a new interim supervisor is starting next week
    -The plan is for that interim supervisor to be on duty for four months (so through the end of August), at which point we will hopefully get a new longer term supervisor
    -My due date is about 2 months later, in early November

    This seems risky because it’s all inconvenience, no good will built up, with two new supervisors – but the less time they have to plan, the more burdensome, and frankly i don’t even think i can keep it secret until I’m back at my regular job. So when to disclose – before I return, after, or even wait for the final supervisor, which seems way too late?

    1. Parenthetically*

      I would say sooner rather than later, whenever you’d otherwise disclose! Surely it’s routine for someone coming into a new office to have to deal with stuff like that — better for it to be planned out/laid out/scheduled/covered and in a folder in their desk ready to peruse at their leisure, than them having to figure it out with you. Right? Obviously your situation is unique, but I’d think it’d be part of the onboarding process for the new supervisor to have the interim/HR/whoever say, “OK, so Fergus is out for vacation all of Thanksgiving week — he cleared that in May and Clementine and Stefano are going to cover anything time sensitive. Jane’s got her six weeks of mat leave in there as well, and we’ve got a temp lined up for that block of time, here’s the temp agency info, and the informational packet Jane’s been working on for the temp is all put together and ready to go so hopefully that’ll all go smoothly. The year-end audit will start Dec 2…” etc. etc. etc.

    2. Psyche*

      Disclose it to whoever is supervisor when you feel comfortable disclosing. Don’t let the supervisor turnover be a factor. You shouldn’t need to build up good will to take maternity leave. Disclosing at a reasonable time for them to arrange coverage could even go towards building good will.

    3. Zephy*

      +1 suggestion to disclose sooner rather than later. You didn’t get pregnant at them, and it isn’t your fault that this Supervisor Roulette is happening. The best and kindest thing you can do is let them know as soon as you can – extra time to plan for this sort of thing is the opposite of a problem.

  165. Gene Parmesan*

    I posted on the open thread last week (waaayyy at the bottom), and I have sort of an update. My post was about getting a job offer that I’m very interested in, but the salary they offered ($55K) was below my current salary ($72K), and I was trying to negotiate. I said I would be willing to take it for $65K, due to better benefits and much shorter commute.

    I spoke to the hiring manager Monday morning, and she said she could offer up to $60K (this was the advertised top of the salary range in the job posting), but would need approval to go higher. I told her my current salary, and she said she would check and see what they could do. She recognized that $60K was low based on my credentials and skills. She came back today and said the highest they can offer is $63K.

    So now I have to decide, am I willing to take it for $63K (lower than what I think my minimum should be), or turn it down? Decisions, decisions!

    1. CM*

      Without reading your other post — turn it down!
      Unless you think a $9K drop in salary is worth it.
      Just beware of making a decision that seems good now, but in a year will make you feel resentful.

      1. De Minimis*

        A shorter commute is worth a lot, but probably not that much. I’d probably hold firm unless I really wanted to work there for reasons outside of pay.

    2. 1234*

      How do you feel about the work environment/team/workload? Personally, IDK that I would be willing to take $63K either if I currently made $72K.

    3. Gene Parmesan*

      The big arguments in favor of taking it are, (a) the retirement plan is much better (no employer match here, big employer contribution there), (b) short commute (~1 mile from my house versus 25 miles each way), and (c) I would have opportunities for advancement here, but I’m maxed out here.

        1. Bostonian*

          If you are confident that there are opportunities for advancement AND you’re maxed out at your current position, it might be worth the switch in the long run. However, if you think it’s possible to get a higher salary at another job, it might be best to keep looking.

      2. Lovecraft Beauty*

        Those are super important. How much would the employer match mean? That’s compensation, even if you can’t access it right away. Do you have a sense of how fast those opportunities for advancement would materialize, and if they would come with raises?

      3. Seven hobbits are highly effective, people*

        If you’re currently putting a significant chunk of money into retirement savings that you could dial back on given the employer contribution, factoring that in to make the pay differential look smaller makes sense, because it would make for a smaller decrease in actual take-home pay than the salary difference alone would seem. However, that’s a large gap to be bridging, and you may have already factored that in when figuring out your initial floor.

    4. NoLongerYoung*

      I did take a cut like that, and was happier enough that I caught up the salary in a couple years. (More sleep, better thinking and productivity = promotions, and you mentioned there were more growth opportunities).

      Do calculate out the total compensation (including the value of the match, health care coverage, etc). A 5% match of 63k=$3000…add that in.
      And do your budget. Can you make it work?
      It was worth it to me. YMMV. Only you can judge if you will regret staying.

    5. Beetle*

      Can you ask them more vacation time? more bonus? Add in a signing bonus ? (Ask for all 3) …

  166. kwagner*

    I think someone just took credit for something I did. I listened in on my first conference call. I’m new to this job, only been here 2 months. I write profiles for projects, among other things, and I’m the only person in my office that does anything like this. My boss pulled me into his office and told me I’d be on a call with people who did the project and a retired employee of our office, who I’ll call Fergus. My boss opened the call and then introduced Fergus to the project people as the guy who writes the profiles. Fergus then spent an hour saying stuff like “i saw X in my research” and “I have Y written down here” but it was research I had done and written into a draft that I made! After the call my boss told me that he had sent the research I had done and the draft I had written to Fergus which was, and I quote, “so helpful”. I had spent days on that profile. I was and am so upset by this. Is this normal? Should I expect credit for anything I write here?

    1. Narise*

      I think it really depends on your role vs Fergus. If your role is staff writer or researcher than your work may be passed to Fergus because he is the account rep or face of the company to the client. I think I would need more information about your role and what you were hired to do to provide good feedback.

      1. kwagner*

        I’m an editorial aide. Fergus is the retired director of this dept, I had never heard of him before though. I was hired to do the writing for my department, which includes these profiles. I’m sure my reaction isn’t super level right now, as I had my outlook on this job changed in the span of a minute and my boss has been making me do admin work and giving me no writing to do lately, which I’m sure is affecting my view on this. Thanks for responding :)

        1. LaDeeDa*

          WTF! Why is this retired person on the call?
          He did take credit for your work, and I am so mad for you right now I can’t appropriately respond, so I can’t imagine how pissed you are!

          1. Clisby*

            It’s possible Fergus is both retired and working part-time for this employer. I’ve been retired for 2.5 years, and my employer just asked me if I’d be willing to come back part-time.

    2. Me*

      I’d go with a wait and see approach since your new. Sometimes people use “my” not as ownership as in “the research I did” but as a “the research I’m looking at”. Like “My records show”.

      It’s common to get credit as a team contributor, but not always common to have everything you do at work attributed directly to you.

      1. kwagner*

        I understand that. I’m the only person on the team and did all the work is the only thing. I’m probably more annoyed that someone didn’t do anything and got to act like they did more than anything, which is a personal thing unfortunately haha.
        Thanks :)

        1. valentine*

          Ask your boss what’s going on: “My understanding was I was the profile author. Am I just providing drafts for Fergus?”

  167. Marriedacarrot*

    Is there any advice on how to improve your work ethic? I work as a Project Manager and I find that often make silly and avoidable mistakes. Has anyone had these experiences at their job and been able to turn it around?

    1. De Minimis*

      I still struggle with this, but checklists can help–a way to go over everything one last time before submitting it.

    2. NicoleK*

      I second checklists. For tasks where it’s easy to make a mistake, I will work on the task, set it aside, and then review the task again at a later time.

    3. NotAnotherManager!*

      Checklists and double-checking work (or, if it’s proofreading, enlisting a trusted colleague to give it a once-over).

      Also, I wouldn’t necessarily class this as a work-ethic issue. I view work-ethic problems as not volunteering for work or trying to shuffle your work off onto other people or not caring about doing a good job or doing the bare minimum to not get fired. Attention to detail issues can occur with people who otherwise care and have good work ethic just have trouble looking at the trees v. the forest (or have ADHD).

  168. Trek*

    ADMIN Day
    So this week I finally got around to sending our realtor a gift for all of her hard work on our behalf. My husband and I have been trying to buy a home for months and submitted three offers before finding reasonable non-crazy people to work with and a home we wanted to buy. She stuck with it and helped us so much. I scheduled to have it delivered Tuesday and due to a truck breakdown it arrived Wednesday right on ADMIN’s day!

    Any thoughts on if I should reach out to her and apologize for the day or just let it go? She reached out and said thank you and seemed very pleased but I don’t like knowing that it fell on this day.

    2. Alianora*

      I doubt she would assume it meant anything other than a thank-you for her hard work, especially if you left a note. Definitely wouldn’t apologize!

    4. Lilysparrow*

      Nobody with sense enough to come in out of the rain could confuse a realtor with an office admin. I assume, from your positive attitude toward her, that your realtor is not a kook with a giant chip in get shoulder, just looking for some far-fetched reason to be offended.

      Leave it alone.

  169. anon4this*

    I am in a similar boat as yesterday’s LW: a place I am applying to wants my references up front, along with the rest of the application materials. The place is a small nonprofit, and I don’t know if they want them just so they have them should they be close to a decision (fine), or if they will contact my references earlier in the process (not great). Is there a way I can ask about that or tell them I’d prefer if they wait, without affecting my candidacy? Or is it better to hand them over and hope for the best? Yesterday’s LW was talking about pushing back on the recruiter, but can you push back directly to the place you’re applying to?

    1. LaDeeDa*

      Just my own experience- I have never heard of any company calling references before the pre-screen phone interview from recruiters, most companies don’t bother with references until they are ready to extend an offer. and I have never heard of a company not letting the candidate know they are at the reference checking stage. Hopefully, other people will chime in with their knowledge and experiences.

      1. anon4this*

        That’s helpful to know. I would hope that’s the case here. In my experience, very small places can be kind of a toss-up as to how they handle hiring. My references are friendly, though, and most places handle references as you said, so it’s probably worth the risk just to provide them as asked. Thanks for your input!

  170. Capt. Dunkirk*

    How to avoid talking about my new job?

    Basic backstory: We had a C-level exec get pushed out of the company (somewhat unfairly) a couple years ago. He got a position at a new company that’s literally just down the road from us. Since then he’s hired away a couple of my coworkers and one manager – who has then hired away a couple more coworkers.
    Now it looks as though I’m going to be next. From what I’ve heard from the people who’ve gone over there, this new company sounds like a world of difference of improvement as far as workplace culture goes. Many of my coworkers still here view the ones that left as “having escaped”.
    I’m also looking forward to escaping, but I don’t want to feel like I’m rubbing it in peoples’ faces. I also don’t want to stoke any animosity that may exist in management here who may be upset that this one place is taking all our good workers. I would be the sixth one out of our staff of around 70. It’s not a huge number, but it’s surely been noticed.
    After it is announced that I’m leaving, how do I talk about it with sure-to-be curious coworkers without revealing which company it is?
    The work I’ll be doing is quite different, so I know I can focus on talking about that, but what should I do if someone point-blank asks me the name of the company, or if it’s “the one that all our coworkers are escaping to”?

    1. CM*

      I don’t think you can avoid it.
      Either you have a strict policy of saying nothing, even in an exit interview, which is tough to stick to — or you’re going to tell at least one person and word will get around.

      1. valentine*

        I think the old/future colleagues may tell for you and your best bet is to get ahead of that message.

        But are you sure you want to regroup with all the former colleagues? What if it ends up being Current Company Lite? Why not go to an entirely different company?

    2. MissDisplaced*

      Well, you don’t have to tell where you’re going until after you leave.
      And it’s not your fault that people are so willing to jump ship to work with that exec at a better company!

      I sort of have no sympathy for companies that are so clueless about why people are leaving, and it’s NOT because another company is “poaching” them.

      Same thing happened at my last company. As soon as they moved to an expensive city and revoked WFH… people began jumping ship because they didn’t like it. A couple of people went first, and then brought over others to their new companies. Go figure!

    3. NiceTry*

      Tell them to check with me on my day /maybe reach out after my last day here and I’m happy to share that!

  171. TiffanyAching*

    People who are in HR and/or hire for HR positions, do you think the PHR from HRCI or the SHRM-CP is the better certification to get? What has helped you the most? Which one do you prefer when hiring?

    1. Mojo021*

      I have been in HR for about 15 years. I personally have the SHRM-CP and find it to be more recognizable among HR people.

      1. MN HR gal*

        Oh interesting. I’ve found the PHR more recognizable, though I wonder if this is because it has been around for so much longer than the SHRM-CP, the HRCI certifications are asked for more often (I’m fairly sure I’ve read it’s 4 times more often) in job postings than the SHRM ones. But SHRM itself is very recognizable. And there’s a good chance that they may balance out to equal as time goes on.

        From a lot of the reading I’ve done on it, the PHR focuses much more on employment law, so if you’re looking for positions in smaller companies (under 200 people) this is often the more useful certification because it shows that you know the laws surrounding HR and compliance in general, and you’re more likely going to need to be the expert in those. If you’re looking at larger companies with more specialized interests, then the SHRM-CP might be the better way to go, it’s less of the law, and more of the over-arching picture of HR. So which to get probably is more about you and what you want from your certification.

    2. Semaj*

      SHRM-CP is much more recognizable where I am and I often see it listed in the preferred qualifications of job postings. Good luck!

    3. andlars*

      Just popped on here to say I’m currently reading Wintersmith and had a moment of gleeful disorientation when I caught a glimpse of your username while scrolling through responses.

      1. TiffanyAching*

        I was lucky enough to attend a reading Terry Pratchett did on his book tour for Wintersmith and have a signed copy!

  172. bubble tea*

    I’m at my first professional job after college and it’s been very lax so far. I’m constantly finishing work way ahead of schedule and my manager is happy but there’s no extra work for me. I’ve asked other departments if I can help out in any way and there just isn’t enough to do. I’ve already discussed this multiple times with my manager and he suggests that I should spend the extra time studying and improving my skills. Is this OK career-wise? Should I be looking for a more challenging job instead? I’ve been here for just over a year.

    1. uranus wars*

      If you enjoy the work and the pay is good, I would suggest doing what your boss is suggesting. Online trainings, industry blogs, etc. You might even be able to see if they are willing to pay for you to go to an industry conference or reimburse for lunch/networking meetings on days you are not busy.

      Do you think there is a chance work will pick up for you at some point? You might also want to do the things I have suggested while searching for jobs that might be more in line with expectations – also keeping in mind several friends and I had the same experience at our first jobs. Tasks that were easy and done quickly, and we weren’t quite experienced enough for the higher-level work yet.

  173. looking for a peaceful existence*

    how normal are loud arguments in a professional setting? A department manager project manager and employee all tend to get in loud arguments at least twice a week. it often stems from the employee not wanting to do what one of the two managers asked of him. sometimes it gets so bad there are f-bombs, JC’s, gd’s dropped frequently. when I complained about this to Senior Management sometime back I was told it just had to be accepted because it was the employees passion for the job.

    1. Alianora*

      Not normal in general, although it may vary based on industry. Sounds like it’s normal for your workplace. I would want to get out.

    2. Ms. Taylor Sailor*

      Yikes. I can’t speak for other industries (I’ve been an admin in higher ed for 2.5 years), but that sounds absolutely not normal. And there are considerably better ways of displaying passion. That is such a piss-poor excuse, particularly since the inciting incident of the yelling is because someone DOESN’T want to do their job. I’m sorry your Senior Management doesn’t want to actually manage.

    3. NotAnotherManager!*

      They are not normal anywhere I’ve worked, but I understand from peers at other firms that litigators, in particular, tend to be yellers. (My firm has a no-assholes philosophy, and management will have a chit-chat with attorneys who feel frequent yelling is an acceptable communication mode.) I won’t say I never hear yelling, ever, but it’s so infrequent that it’s jarring when it happens.

      I am more concerned about the fact that that unprofessional behavior (not just the language but the employee not wanting to do their job) is being interpreted as passion as opposed to insubordination.

    4. Anastasia Beaverhousen*

      Not normal. Not in the toxic sales workplace I was once at, nor in the California-casual workplace. At the latter, swearing was not unheard of, but only in a friendly, ‘let me tell you this funny story’ type way – swearing AT each other, definitely not! The closest I’ve seen to raised voices in the workplace was a) restaurant kitchen, lots of noise to shout over and b) when a critical piece of software broke, making it impossible for my whole team to do their job, the manager yelled over the phone at IT.

    5. The New Wanderer*

      I’ve been working for 20+ years in office environments and I can only think of two instances where I heard loud arguing. Not normal and I would be pretty unnerved if I had to listen to it that frequently, to the point where I would be actively job hunting.

      Not to mention it’s highly unproductive if it keeps happening and it’s basically the same thing every time. The employee should be written up/put on a PiP/fired for insubordination, and the manager should be retrained/demoted for failing to manage the situation effectively. I’m guessing the manager has no power to enforce a PiP or fire the guy if Senior Management says they don’t care or won’t let the manager do this, but it should absolutely not result in repeated and sustained arguing.

    6. looking for a peaceful existence*

      Thanks, everyone, for the replies. Just wanted to make sure I wasn’t being overly sensitive about this. I think what’s worse with the whole thing is that another senior manager hung up on an irate client who used the same tone and language during a phone call. I guess it’s ok for some to have to endure it, but not others.

  174. I Work on a Hellmouth*

    Hello all! Greetings from the Hellmouth, which I will hopefully be leaving soon!

    This week has been crazy, but not in the funny animal-and-natural-phenomenon story kind of way. My boss has been interviewing people to fill our two vacant leasing positions. but they have been… well, they have seemed kind of odd. For example, she brought this one dude in for a second interview and it lasted TWO HOURS. The first hour was in the model apartment and around property, the second involved whispering in her office. That’s… that’s not normal, right? I don’t know how that could be normal. She’s also been conducting a lot of “off site” interviews. We’ll get text messages saying that she forgot to tell us, but she got a resume the afternoon before and the person couldn’t “make it to us on their lunch break” because they worked in the next town over so she was going to be in late because she was going to meet them somewhere to interview them. Then she’ll over explain later about why she had to meet them, but that she didn’t think they would work out. Guys. This is an entry level leasing position. That’s a really weird thing to do, right?

    I’ve also still been pulling documentation and sending stuff to HR, who are also talking to the Good Leasing Consultant later today in depth. I thought I was done, but then when I was out something incredibly shady happened involving Boss having our temp shred checks from December that she knew I needed to go through (and that she had previously attempted to paint a false narrative about via email), so I had to pull all of the previous emails and send a write up in. I don’t know if anything is going to come of this (or, more specifically, if anything good is going to come of it), but I’ve just reached this point where it can’t get worse or more upsetting so… why not?

    The reason I was out yesterday is pretty great, though! I had an in-person interview at Local Big University for an office coordinator position with a department that seems awesome and supportive and process-nerdy, and I think I did really well (thanks, Alison)! The job seems interesting and very busy and rewarding, and I will know the decision by the end of next week! I also have just had some friends forward a ton of openings with the state–several of which I actually have some great connections I can use. The job hunt is actually the most positive it has been since I started looking, hooray!

    I am working alone with temp (who can only answer phones and do filing) today, and so I am doing the work of the entire office, and starting Monday I will be performing the duties of 3 full time positions until new people are hired and trained, so here is hoping I get good news from Local Big University–the sooner I can give notice, the better, But I actually feel like it might happen soon, which is wonderful!

    2. Ariana Grande's Ponytail*

      Hellmouth! I am by a large a lurker on this website, but this is great news! I really hope you can leave this mess behind soon.

    3. leya*

      yeah all of this stuff your boss is doing is suspect as hell. does she have an inkling that you’re speaking to HR? if she had any sense whatsoever, she’d probably know that it would be even worse for her to try to force you out while you were providing documentation to HR… but her having any good sense is a pretty big If. i’m really glad to hear that your search is going well! i confess that like many i started reading your updates for all the craziness (and the great writing that conveys it!) but now i read every week hoping that you’ve found a new position. crossing my fingers for you!!

      1. I Work on a Hellmouth*

        I don’t know if she does… she started monitoring me very closely after I talked to HR the first time, but I had called them while I was out walking apartments and wound up being out about 10-15 minutes longer than it usually would have taken me, so she might just be mad about that? It’s really hard to tell anything because she doesn’t react or behave like a normal person.

    4. Ask a Manager* Post author

      Are you sure you have the full story about what she’s interviewing for? That sounds a lot like she might be interviewing to replace someone currently on staff and is trying to keep that secret.

      1. I Work on a Hellmouth*

        We never have the full story on anything regarding interviews–she’ll even keep the fact that she’s officially hired someone for an open position a secret for a week or more (we will find out because the person will call with questions about office policy or their start date) for reasons we can’t really fathom. The only person left on office staff besides her is me, so… if that’s what’s happening, I guess it’s a really good thing that the job hunt seems to be going well. :/ Uh, don’t mind me, just going to go stress eat a bag of cookies…

        1. Anonforthis*

          That was my first thought as well. I’m so glad you already have an active job search!!!!!

        2. Merci Dee*

          That would be a heck of a thing to do to herself, though . . . take secretive interviews outside the office just to find someone to replace you. Especially since you’re going to be doing the work of 3 people, and it would be really hard to find someone who would be prepared to step into that kind of hectic position. To make it work, she’d actually have to do some of the day-to-day work herself. From what you’ve said about your boss in the past, that ain’t happening any time soon. Or, really, on any day that ends in -y.

            1. I Work on a Hellmouth*

              I made that assumption for WAY too long, it’s a really easy assumption to make!

        3. Batgirl*

          That’s really common with pathological liars. The one I
          used to know kept people apart from each other, like she would get super stressed out if people identified her as

          1. Batgirl*

            an acquaintance in common.

            She was a small business owner too, and would employ the same cloak and dagger approach when hiring ‘because this is such a bitchy and gossipy industry’. She just didn’t want her nice guy act rumbled and people forewarning her victims.

                1. Arts Akimbo*

                  OHHHH! Maybe she had the temp shred the checks in preparation for firing you for “losing” them, and this is why she’s secretively interviewing! I hope not, though! I hope her “interviewing” is just shopping trips during the workday or something.

                  However it shakes out, good for you for proactively documenting everything!! I am so glad you’re talking to HR!

        4. Pebbles*

          My hope for you is that if she is looking for someone to replace you, the day she announces this new person’s employment (or they just show up) is the day you get to tell her you quit. No overlap, no training, no nothing. She made this hellmouth, she can deal with it.

        5. Teapot analyst*

          What are the chances that she’s interviewing for a new job for herself? That was my thought – maybe she has figured out that HR is likely to fire her… ?

          2. I Work on a Hellmouth*

            If she was interviewing, it would have to be for a VERY similar setup to here–national company with no other properties in town so the people interviewing and deciding wouldn’t be local or have local connections. She’s been around for over 20 years, and (as I have recently learned) she’s burned a lot of bridges. She actually won some pretty big local apartment industry awards a few years back, but since then her reputation around town has apparently become less good.

        1. Buu*

          These are all more sensible than my initial thought that she’s just been skiving off or having an affair.

      3. Blarg*

        My thought was she’s just taking long lunches or going to the spa or just literally anything else that isn’t work. Tell you guys she’s interviewing out of the office, “prove” to corporate she just can’t find good people at these non-existent meetings, and get some shortened work days in the process.

    5. Turtlewings*

      Fingers and toes crossed for that new job! Don’t get too hung up on hearing from them by the end of next week — as Alison has said, and as my personal experience has usually showed, these things frequently take longer than the interviewers think it will. Don’t get discouraged if you don’t hear from them right away.

      And btw, no that is really not normal interview behavior. I feel confident in saying she is Up To Something, though the level of nefariousness is hard to gauge.

      1. Merci Dee*

        Now, I have an image in my head of Alan Rickman as Snape with that slightly ominous look on his face as he tells the Golden Trio that people might think they’re . . . . Up To Something.

        Thank you for that.

    6. A CAD Monkey*

      I’m honestly waiting for the “I NO LONGER work on a Hellmouth” user name to show up.

    8. Jaid*

      These shady interviews…does she have a couch in her office? Sorry, my inner-12 year old’s talking here.

      Anyway, best of luck for the future!

        1. I Work on a Hellmouth*

          Honestly, guys, everyone keeps suggesting this (or that she is going out on Tinder dates) but she did the same thing when she hired McGruff, who was a lady. Whatever the deal is, it is non-sexual in nature, but probably nefarious in intent.

    9. Bee's Knees*

      Yay! So glad you have a happy update to share. Her interview processes are not normal, but neither is she, so…

      Also, have you given thought to a notice period? Or, more specifically, not? It would be my suggestion not to try and work out two weeks with this job, cause your boss be Crazy with a capital c.

      1. Zephy*

        She’s said before that Boss is a vengeful witch toward former coworkers/employees…but, then again, Boss is probably just as likely to pull some crazy stunt whether Hellmouth gives two weeks or two minutes’ notice.

      2. I Work on a Hellmouth*

        I went from thinking “I have to give a two week notice” to “Maybe I’ll give notice but opt to cut it short if anyone says/does anything abusive” to “I am strongly considering doing the Walter-White-walking-away-from-an-explosion and never look back.” But if I get the Local Big University job, well… they only pay you once a month at the end of the month, soooo… I might need to give the notice just so I can pad out ye old banke accounte during the paycheck transition…

        (I still don’t know if I can manage it, though. I just found out from the temp that Boss has hired someone as a leasing consultant who won’t be starting for over a month. I can not keep up with the work load here indefinitely.)

      3. Nerdy Library Clerk*

        Yeah. This is one of those situations where giving notice by email from home seems like a very sensible idea. Either that or literally as you’re going out the door.
        Not professional, but when it comes to Hellmouths, I suspect getting out is the most important part.

    10. Karen from Finance*

      Yay, I’m so happy this week seems to have been not terrible by Hellmouth standards, and that the job search is looking up!!

    11. Zephy*

      Yay, an update! I’ve been refreshing this thread all afternoon and ctrl+F searching “hellmouth,” haha.

      Your boss is 110% up to some Real Shady Shit. I hope you can get out of there soon. All extremities are crossed for Local Big University! Will you give a standard two-week notice, or NOPE on out of there as soon as the ink is dry on your new offer?

      1. Shelbie*

        Like everyone else I am hoping you find a new job soon. Concerning her off site interviews could she be interviewing for a new job herself.

      2. I Work on a Hellmouth*

        It kind of depends… for the first time in my life I am considering NOPEing the heck out of a job with little to no notice, but it honestly depends on how bad the pay transition from here to (assuming I get the position) Local Big University will be.

    12. CupcakeCounter*

      Those sound like the stories we make up while we are interviewing in secret not something the interviewer would do

    13. a heather*

      I don’t know, her leaving to go “interview someone but they’re not going to work out” sounds more like she might be interviewing to try to leave herself.

    14. Lalaith*

      So Crazy Boss could have nefarious reasons for all these off-site interviews, as many have suggested, but honestly I read it as her being Lazy Boss and just having a convenient excuse to come in late.

    15. I Work on a Hellmouth*

      Holy crap, guys, we just had A GIANT BLACK SNAKE CRAWL THROUGH OUR OFFICE. And I tripped over the too short computer cord my my desk and skinned my hands and knees. AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA. I WAS ON FACE LEVEL WITH THE OFFICE SNAKE.

      1. That Californian*

        Maybe it’s just the proximity to Passover that’s leading my brain here, but if there is an outbreak of boils or a hailstorm, promise me you will quit and run! (Also to mix the stories a bit, DON’T LOOK BACK.)

      3. I Work on a Hellmouth*

        Update: The Really Nice Temp has told me that my boss privately told her yesterday that she has hired the two hour second interview guy… but that he will not be starting until after May 1st.

        Um. I have to cover all duties until new people are here and trained. So I will be covering at least two full time jobs for over a month (unless I get the job at Local Big University).

      4. Karen from Finance*

        Oh my God.

        Now this is the normal Hellmouthiness that we’ve come to expect. Jesus.

        Are you ok now?

        1. I Work on a Hellmouth*

          A little scraped, a lot sure that my boss is planning to get rid of me between now and June 1st so she can replace me with Mr. Two Hour Second Interview, but still hopeful for escape before the fit hits the shan.

      5. NoLongerYoung*

        No!! Just when I thought there would be no animal mischief this week. Has the snake been eating the squirrels?
        Hope you are physically okay….

        1. I Work on a Hellmouth*

          Physically fine, just a little scraped up! I don’t know what that snake has been eating, but it was BIG.

    16. Forrest Rhodes*

      Great news about the interview! I am now doing my special “Creating Good Magumbo that Soon-T0-Be-Ex-Hellmouth Receives Good News from Local Big Uni” dance, and will repeat it at regular intervals. Looking forward to your next posting.

      1. Troutwaxer*

        I have been preying that Cthulhu will grant the Hell Boss surcease from madness and sorrow. Or maybe just eat her soul.

        Yog Sothoth Neblod Zin!

        1. WoodswomanWrites*

          Although I’m a little late to the conversation, I am joining the chorus of people rooting for you to land a new job that gets you the heck out of there ASAP as well. As preparation and to lift your spirits in the meantime, here’s the Ask a Manager thread where people share their spectacular resignation stories:
          https://www.askamanager.org/2017/09/spectacular-resignation-stories-share-in-the-comments.html

          And here’s Alison’s summary with some highlights from the list:
          https://www.askamanager.org/2017/10/resigning-via-cod-a-glorious-out-of-office-message-and-other-quitting-stories.html

    17. Jules the 3rd*

      GOOD LUCK!

      I bet your boss is job hunting, and that’s what the ‘driving over to the other town to interview’ is about.

  175. Anonydeer*

    I’m hoping to get some insight into this thing from y’all.

    I’ve been working for about a year at an organization that provides services to the general population, and particularly teenagers due to the nature of service we provide. Some of my colleagues hold a lot of hostility towards that demographic and express it on the regular. They make critical/judgmental comments behind the clients’ back, moan about how difficult they are, roll their eyes, etc.

    At first I thought it could be healthy venting (it’s an emotional labor intensive kind of job) even though at my previous jobs those feelings were not to be expressed at work to avoid spreading dislike of the clients (and to avoid them overhearing). A big component of our job is that we have to be welcoming and accessible or else clients will not come to us to get the services they need.

    I’m wondering if there’s anything I can do to try to change that part of our organization culture, aside from not participating in that kind of discourse myself. I’m not too sure talking to my boss would work because she’s probably the most irate and vocal of the bunch.

    Thanks everyone!

    1. Kathenus*

      It’s tough, especially if your boss is doing it too. One main thing you can do is just to always model the right attitude yourself. It doesn’t have to be in a pollyanna like way, but just showing the welcoming, respectful behavior in your work on a regular basis. If there are opportunities to slowly try to change some minds – maybe by pointing out positive things that occur so that people might notice them more, or gently pushing back in appropriate situations – like if someone disparages the demographic, saying something like “I’ve found that most of the people I work with are good people who are trying to do the right thing” or whatever makes sense for your clients. But I get it that pervasive negativity is really toxic, so empathy for being an island of positivity in an ocean of gloom.

  176. Ron McDon*

    I posted here a fortnight ago that my son was interviewing for a software engineer apprenticeship … he was offered the job!

    They’re paying a great salary, he has one day off site a week at college to obtain a qualification, and starts in September!

    I am so proud of him. He’s never interviewed for anything other than a weekend job before, and had three separate interviews and a skills test.

    He used Alison’s ‘golden question’ and the interviewer said ‘wow, that’s a great question, no-one’s ever asked me that before!’.

  177. Lucette Kensack*

    Why do you think some folks — even those with significant, public failures or ethical challenges — keep getting hired?

    I’m thinking of the example of hiring Emmett Carson to lead the new Lucas museum, after he was forced to resign as ED of the Silicon Valley Community Foundation following an official, board-sponsored report of a culture of abuse and racist and sexist behavior.

    But it happens all the time in less high-profile roles. In my region and field I can name three men off the top of my head who are top leaders (CEO/ED/President/etc.) of their organizations after, in two cases, being fired for sexual harassment (while they were top leaders of other organizations) and, in one case, being outed as the man behind an online harassment campaign of a female candidate for public office. This isn’t insider information; it’s stuff that was reported in the newspaper.

    I’m sure these men are talented and effective at important aspects of their work — presumably that’s why they keep getting hired. But surely there are other candidates with the same skill and experience. Leadership talent isn’t such a limited resource.

    1. Turtlewings*

      I suspect they’re being hired by people who are like them — they don’t care about those things, or don’t take them seriously.

    2. Anonymous Educator*

      Men fail upwards, unfortunately. That’s why I don’t get the whole argument about “If there were a gender pay gap, wouldn’t companies just hire women, because women are cheaper?” Companies and orgs and schools do not hire the best candidates or even the cheapest candidates. It is not a meritocracy. A lot of energy goes into reinforcing power structures and “old boys” networks.

      2. Lucette Kensack*

        Yes, that’s absolutely a huge part of it. But, although I used egregious examples of male misbehavior in my original post, I’ve seen this happen with women too (not with sexual harassment, but more general failure).

        I’ve had a boss who was widely known to be ineffective, at least within our organization. We never had a balanced budget during her tenure. She was hired into an executive role at a partner organization. Her failures may not have been public in the same way as the men I used as examples, but they would have been easy to discover.

        The female CHRO of my husband’s company was fired (for poor performance, not a layoff) and walked out on the spot; she had a job as CHRO of another Fortune 500 company within two months. (She’d had several CHRO roles before that, too, none of which lasted longer than a year.)

        It seems like once someone reaches a senior-enough level they will keep getting rehired, no matter their success or failure.

        1. Anonymous Educator*

          A lot of energy goes into reinforcing power structures and “old boys” networks.

          Yeah, take the “old boys” networks out as an example, and reinforcing power structures still applies. CEOs love to brag about having been fired by their former companies, and they do not in any way view that as potentially a mark against them getting future employment. That’s why they can write books about how failure is necessary to succeed. People in ordinary jobs cannot brag about having been fired from their last jobs.

    4. Anonymous Educator*

      Thanks for the tip, by the way. I know someone who was considering applying for a position at the Lucas Museum and didn’t know about this new hire.

    5. Batgirl*

      I’ve been in a position to ask this question and the answer I got was “Ethics aren’t important if he can do the job” But the truth was he was as shite as he was crooked. I think they all have something on each other.

    6. Bex*

      WOW. Somehow I totally missed this. I almost interviewed at SVCF right before this all become public, but when I was doing my due diligence everyone I talked to essentially told me to run the other way. I’m pretty shocked that he ended up in such a high profile position, I had assumed he would end up doing under-the-radar private consulting for a few years.

      Also to your point about men vs women… his #2 (a woman) who resigned a couple days after him doesn’t appear to be working yet.

  178. IcyIvy*

    I work in city government. The management at my department has made it abundantly clear as of late that the well-being of staff is not a concern high on their list in comparison to public opinion. Today it went far enough that I’m just flabbergasted.

    Someone has called multiple locations while masturbating and saying obscene things to staff. Our boss declined to block the person’s number in case they might have “legitimate reasons” for calling in the future. As a survivor of sexual assault and someone who took one of those calls today, I’m incredibly frustrated that this was their response to sexual harassment by a member of the public. It leave me questioning at what point they would consider it appropriate to intervene and protect staff. I want to say something but I am struggling with finding who to speak to and how to phrase my feeling that this is not a great move on managements part.

    1. Four lights*

      This is terrible; I’m so sorry for you. Is there an HR department? It’s also possible your state may have laws about how your employer has to deal with sexual harassment at work. Since it’s more than one location, maybe a group of you can work together on this.

      “No one here should be subjected to this kind of sexual harassment at work. What is our plan to prevent this from happening with this person again? What’s our plan for when calls like this come in?”

    2. Batgirl*

      Someone needs to tell him that caring about PR and not being blatantly sexist is something of a twofer deal.

    3. Anono-me*

      Long-term. Please review your city and state’s policies on both sexual and generic abuse and harassment of government employees and employees in general.

      Short term. It sounds like this person is calling from one number and not using caller ID blocking. If this is the case, everyone should just start transferring all of this person’s calls to the clueless boss.

      1. GiveItToTheBoss*

        Love both the Long Term and Short Term solutions! Esp. the short term solution, because you see, they might have “legitimate reasons” for calling in the future and who better to answer that person than the boss!!!

    4. Arts Akimbo*

      Then give him a public opinion shitstorm. Tip off a local newspaper or media outlet that this is happening.

  179. Roz Doyle*

    Does anyone have suggestions for shareable food to bring to work when a couple of team members are trying to lose weight or working on bringing down their cholesterol levels? Unaware of both of these situations in my coworkers’ lives I brought mini butter tarts and cinnamon buns to work today, as a sort of “yay it’s Friday” and “thanks for your support on a difficult project”. And those two ppl can’t eat these delish goodies. No one is resentful or anything like that, but I just want to bring something more health conscious (but also not messy), next time. Note – I never cook/bake for coworkers (woman in a male dominated profession, no need to feed stereotypes, plus I genuinely don’t have the time) so any healthy recipes will be lost on me. Thanks in advance!

    2. alphabet soup*

      Some kind of fruit platter? Those are usually easy to pick up pre-made at the grocery store.

    3. Four lights*

      Sorry, I missed the part about not cooking.

      There’s always a fruit salad, veggie platter, or fancy trail mix. Clementines (Halos). Some people on a diet are ok with dark chocolate.

      1. Roz Doyle*

        Thanks for the recipe anyway, will save it for a personal get-together :) And thanks for the other suggestions.

    4. Merci Dee*

      A veggie tray with some hummus would be awesome. Shareable, healthy, and easy to pick up from the supermarket!

    6. Roz Doyle*

      Thanks everyone for the helpful suggestions, all easy to execute. Good point about the dark chocolate.

  180. Nacho*

    I’m applying for a promotion to team lead, and asked my boss if there was anything I could do to improve my chances. He said that my work skills were good, but he felt I don’t engage enough with the rest of the team. Not that I don’t get along with them or anything, I’m just a little introverted, and prefer to focus on my work instead of socializing. Now I’m supposed to put together an action plan with measurable goals and ways to get along better with my teammates, as if being introverted and focusing on work was a PiP worthy offense.

    Any suggestions for what I can put in the plan?

    1. revueller*

      based on this context, it doesn’t sound like a PIP to me, just an action plan requested by your boss to help you achieve your goals. as a fellow introvert, though, i can definitely relate to this struggle.

      thinking of socialization as a work task in itself has been a helpful framework for me, especially when my first instinct is to ignore people and focus on my core role. i try to build social opportunities into the day, whether that’s at lunch or over Slack or outside of work. having set topics keeps the burden off of me in those conversations.

      hope this helps, best of luck.

    2. NotAnotherManager!*

      I feel you – I am an extreme introvert and would be happy to stay in my hole and work without other people involved. Unfortunately, that doesn’t work out well when you manage 35 people. :)

      Here is the thing about supervising others, though – you have to be connected to what they’re doing. Not just the straight performance reporting, but being out and among them enough to know if someone’s struggling or if someone’s bearing more of a load than someone else. You have to put yourself out there, too, for people to feel comfortable coming to you when they’ve made mistake or just don’t understand what to do an are embarrassed to admit it.

      In terms of a plan, does your work allow for any sort of collaborative projects? Could you set a goal on working on a particular number of pair/team projects within the next month or two? Or is he looking for something more informal like you’ll have lunch with them one day per week or greet everyone when you arrive?

      Also, I would not look at the action plan as a PIP for being introverted – your boss is open to promoting you and is asking you to set a plan on how to manage what he sees as holding you back. If this was PIP worthy, I doubt he’d be able to consider you for the lead position at all, right?

    3. Bostonian*

      What the hell?! It would be one thing if “lack of engagement” = not communicating necessary work-related info, or if you came across as aloof or unapproachable, or anything else that actually affected the work. But your boss didn’t actually say any of those things, so if this is purely a social thing… this is complete crap!

      Could you ask your boss for more specifics/clarification on what better engagement would look like to him? I honestly can’t think of anything to put in a plan that isn’t snarky (e.g., be sure to say “hello” and high-five everyone enthusiastically at the beginning of each shift *eyeroll*).

      1. Colette*

        Building relationships is an important part of many jobs, and staying strictly work-focused won’t do that.

        It involves things like:
        – smiling and saying hello (or nodding when passing people in the halls, or when you come across the otherwise)
        – sharing tidbits of your life outside work and asking about other people’s lives (I.e. “how was your weekend/vacation”, “how’s the renovation/move going”, “wow, that lunch smells really good”j
        – acknowledging events people share (“I’m sorry for your loss”, “congratulations on your engagement “)

        Your coworkers are full people, and the job is only part of their life.

      2. Natalie*

        Not engaging with people is exactly the kind of thing that can make someone come across as aloof or unapproachable…

    4. Introverted 2*

      I’m in a job where part of the job responsibilities explicitly includes building relationships with people in specific other departments (for the purpose of being able to function as a sort of consultant for them when projects or needs come up).

      I’ve found that having it defined as a job responsibility has helped. Someone is retiring? Going to their farewell shindig and socializing with their officemates helps me meet that job responsibility. So does sitting with people I don’t see all that often otherwise, when we’re all at the big all-staff meeting.

      Is there something your team regularly does – even very informal? Is there a communal coffeepot and do people stand around and chat for a few minutes when they get more coffee? Try to get your coffee at the same time (or refill your water or something adjacent). Do people linger at the ends of meetings and discuss work topics that aren’t related to the meeting (where you might usually head right back to your desk)? Linger with them a little longer.

  181. AnonJustInCase*

    What to do about references when you’ve been at a job a long time.

    I’ve been at my current job for 7 years. Same manager the whole time, increasing responsibility (small company).
    Prior to that, I worked at a Big Company for only a year, during which time I had two managers (manager moved jobs, not me). I was laid off in a huge round of New-CEO-Wants-To-Cut-Short-Term-Costs layoff.
    Prior to that, I worked at a Slightly Less Big Company for 9 years, doing work that is related to the work I would be seeking, but not particularly relevant.

    I work in software/web development, so my relevant work experience is virtually all from my current employer, who I would prefer not know that I am considering a change.

    So who can I use as a reference? As far as managers, my choices are my current employer and someone I worked for almost 10 years ago in a similar capacity, but very very different work. Even finding peers is a tricky one; I don’t really want anybody at my current job to know I’m looking.

    WWYD?

    1. Easily Amused*

      I was a web developer and now do iOS development. Personally, I think it’s ok to have references from other jobs as they can still speak to your soft skills (ease of working with you, your ability to accept constructive criticism, etc). I keep reading here about how important it is to have a manager as a reference but I was never able to do that until very recently and it’s never been a problem for me. It would be good if you could use one current co-worker that you trust that can speak to working with you as a developer. How about someone you work closely with from a different discipline? I have a wonderful UI/UX Designer friend who I worked with at 2 different jobs and we are references for one another. I think having someone from a different discipline can also speak to how you function as a dev in a team environment (ability to communicate with others who don’t know code as well as you do, openness to different ideas, willingness to accept last minute changes, etc). Just some ideas. Best of luck in your job search!

  182. Anon4This*

    This is a small thing, but a coworker and I had different thoughts, so I’m curious what others think.

    My organization provides light snack foods in our kitchens – crackers, peanut butter, basic condiments, coffee, tea, etc. During Passover, they provide matzo crackers along with the regular crackers. All of these items are restocked by the building operations staff when emptied.

    I love matzo crackers, and I tend to eat them when they’re provided, even though I’m not Jewish. If there was a set amount provided and they were not restocked, I wouldn’t partake; however, they replenish any empty boxes daily, and they’re stocked on every floor’s kitchen.

    My coworker thinks that I shouldn’t take any because it’s not a religious observance for me. Is it inappropriate to eat them when, from my perspective, there are plenty available for anyone who is observing a religious holiday?

    1. Ms. Taylor Sailor*

      It’s a little hard to say for sure. You should definitely be sensitive to your co-workers who are observing and can’t partake in the other snacks, so definitely don’t take so many that you deprive them of having anything to eat. However, that doesn’t mean you can’t have ANY whatsoever. If there’s genuinely more than enough for everyone who wants some, I wouldn’t say you shouldn’t partake period. I would just observe for a bit to ensure that no one who is observing is being deprived of having enough to snack on throughout the day. If there are truly not enough people eating them to the point that they’re just sitting around, I’d say you’d be good to go to get a packet.

      1. Anon4This*

        The box in our kitchen has never gone empty at all (actually, I’ve never seen a totally empty box in all the years they’ve been provided). I’m not even sure anyone on my floor but me is eating them, but I haven’t been monitoring other people’s food that closely. I also never take the last 1-2 sheets in the box, when it runs low, and I usually eat one sheet every other day or so.

        His point was more that it wasn’t culturally appropriate for me to eat them, whereas I’ve been taking a more practical is-there-enough-to-go-around? view.

        1. Ms. Taylor Sailor*

          Gotcha. In that case, I’d say go for it! In general, I think it’s good to never take the last one just in case, but you sound perfectly fine to partake in them.

          And I’m with Not All on all their points too. Also, what if there’s ever a time you want to ask to have additional matzo crackers ordered because you liked them? In that case, they are then somewhat meant for you because you wanted them and made sure there were enough. If his view is you can’t have any period because they’re meant for observing co-workers only, even if you made sure there’d be enough, then that’d be over the top.

    2. Not All*

      I think it’s absolutely appropriate in that situation. If they were really limited (like when a single vegetarian or kosher or whatever sandwich is ordered for a catered lunch), then it would be different. If anything, the more people who eat them the more likely it is that they will continue to be ordered.

      Not that different from the office ordering gluten-free treats for the celiac, discovering that those treats are everyone’s favorite, and adding a bunch more. Everyone made sure to never take the last one so our celiac always had something available, but there was also less cross-contamination risk for them when everyone in the office was eating gluten free.

    3. LCL*

      Ask your coworker for her opinions on the appropriateness of the rest of your diet through a religious appropriation perspective, as she obviously has strong opinions on this she wants to share.

    5. leah*

      I’m Jewish – please go ahead and feel free to eat the crackers. No big deal. Even if you used up a box, I would hardly think they were relying on the matzot to survive. That would be like me asking if it was okay to eat Christmas cookies even though I don’t observe the religion.

    6. Blarg*

      Eat the matzo! Also, if you’ve never tried it, soak it in egg and fry it. People who are very observant and keep kosher for Passover wouldn’t eat your office’s kitchen stash anyway since it is stored in the same place as non-kosher for Passover food. So you aren’t starving anyone out.

      And, if you feel so inclined, reflect on the themes of the holiday … exodus from slavery and oppression. Self determination. The concept of communal punishment in the form of plagues. There are still so many people yearning to be free.

  183. aiya*

    Update on weird interview situation:

    I posted two weeks ago about a weirdly hostile interview that I had, where the interviewer lectured me on my lack of interview prep and corrected me every time I answered in a way that was not to their liking. I left the interview feeling that I didn’t click with anyone on the team, but then I was then invited back for a second interview, which both shocked and intimated me. I then came here to ask for advice on how to prepare for the second interview.

    Well, I went on the interview, and it turns out I had nothing to worry at all. The interviewers took me out for boba (yes, that’s right, boba), and we chatted very casually about the role, the team, and our personal interests and hobbies. They felt that I had met the qualifications for the job, even if my first interview wasn’t my best performance, and wanted to know what I’d be like in a more relaxed setting and as a potential coworker. I’m happy to say that they’ve offered me the position and that I’ve just accepted!

    I am still a little hesitant to work with people who were such strange and hostile interviewers, but I’ve spoken with my mentor in the field who has worked with this team before, and she’s reassured me that they are very professional. I think regardless, this will be a really good step for me in my career and I’m excited for the challenges to come.

    Thanks to everyone who commented and gave advice on my last post!

    1. NotAnotherManager!*

      Congratulations! I’m so glad you got a more relaxed second interview and would happily support the normalization of a system of call-back interviews over boba.

      I didn’t see your first post, but I had an interview once where the very senior person interviewing me corrected every answer I gave, and I called my husband on the way home and told him it went terribly and there’s no way I was getting that job. Except I did and then got promoted three times in very short succession, even though every time I had to work for that particular interviewer, they treated me the same way they had in the interview – like I never got anything right. Apparently, that was a minority opinion.

      Best of luck with your new job!

  184. Jana*

    My job title recently changed, but my responsibilities have only shifted somewhat (basically only one responsibility is different). So, how do I list this on my resume? I know I’m supposed to list both job titles and achievements/responsibilities, but those lists aren’t really different at this point. I’m currently looking for a new job.

    1. Karen from Finance*

      Company Name LLc, 20xx-present
      Llama Groomer, 2019-present
      Llama Herder, 20xx-2019
      – Responsibility 1
      – Responsibility 2
      – Responsibility 3 […]

  185. Deryn*

    I have been searching but unable to find a particular discussion that I read on here some time ago, maybe someone with a sharper memory can help me out, or jog my memory with some better search terms! I’ve been trying to pick out some keywords to search but they haven’t turned up quite what I’m looking for. Sorry that my memory of this is kind of hazy…

    I THINK it was in a comment that Alison left, and it was a short list of yellow-flag type behaviors in new hires that indicated that it probably wasn’t going to work out. Possibly worded something along the lines of “things that don’t make you a bad employee but that good employees don’t do”. One of the only things I remember for sure was on the list was not being aware of when they have the correct experience or background to jump in on a topic or project. I also seem to recall some things about mismanaging time and deadlines as well.

    Ringing a bell for anyone?

    1. Ms. Taylor Sailor*

      I don’t think this is the same one, but I was reading the archives this morning and found a list of things top candidates don’t do. They aren’t automatic deal-breakers, but they’re things that aren’t indicative of top employees. Could it be that?

      1. Deryn*

        It’s definitely possible that I’m conflating the title with the one I’m thinking of. That sounds right, but the one I had in mind definitely had to do with existing employees. I seem to remember it being in a comment rather than a standalone post (I’m remembering it as being on the blue background of her comments), but I cannot for the life of me remember what post it was. Hmm…

  186. Ms. Taylor Sailor*

    Super minor in the grand scheme of things, but all of the office doors in my building just got replaced with ones with huge glass panes, so it’s very easy to see people as they walk by. It’s not an issue by any stretch and no one’s hanging around to spy on anyone, but it’s…awkward. I also miss having the ability to have complete privacy if needed.

    Anyone else not a fan of these kinds of doors?

    1. Bunny Girl*

      Ugh yes. What’s the point of even having a door? I have a large window in my office door and it drives me crazy. I’m a student so sometime for lunch I used to like to use my computer to get some homework done and stay at my desk but I can’t do that anymore because everyone can still see me in my office and won’t stop interrupting my lunch break. I am super firm with saying Hey not now but everyone I work with is so self absorbed that they don’t care. So instead of getting homework done in my office, I either leave the property or I hide in the basement. All because my door has a huge stupid window in it.

      1. Ms. Taylor Sailor*

        Ugh, I’m so sorry about that. That’s ridiculous that people can’t take a hint (or couldn’t care less apparently). I guess it’s the whole “out of sight, out of mind” deal. But even then, the others in my department (all three of us) generally have our doors cracked open, but close them when we’re not available and will respect the others’ privacy, even if we can see each other through the doors.

        1. Bunny Girl*

          That is weird. I’m trying to picture that. I think there’s this new trend of making everything super modern, and that modern look includes lots of glass doors, and they just aren’t very practical. I recently stayed in a hotel like that. The bathroom door was a sliding glass door that just had a super light frost over it so you could full on see people sitting on the toilet. Awkward.

          1. Ms. Taylor Sailor*

            Yikes. Many people who stay in hotels are generally there with, you know, OTHER PEOPLE, so yeah, that’s not a great design decision. (Slightly off-topic, but I stayed at a Hilton last year that had no towel rack in the bathroom, but a huge framed picture. Because that’s practical and eco-friendly for people who want to hang and re-use towels…)

            I’m definitely a huge fan of modern design trends, but you’re totally on point. The whole purpose of having a door is having privacy. I could get on board if there was an option to put a blinder on the door as well, which I think I’ve seen with some doors, but they’re not the norm at all. I think for my workplace, someone explained that it would help with bringing in natural light. Except, you know, I already have a window.

            1. valentine*

              Bunny Girl, see if you can install a shade on the door. If not, get green and red wrapping paper or posters and train your colleagues as to when it’s okay to enter.

          2. Seven hobbits are highly effective, people*

            I hate those hotel bathroom glass doors! Most of my hotel stays are for conventions, and I have a friend I generally room with to save money. Not only are we not really “hang out together naked” friends (and I’m not really a huge fan of seeing even “naked is ok friends” on the toilet), but we keep different schedules at the convention so the bathroom gets used as “the room where I can turn on the light” when one of us is getting changed early/late while the other one is sleeping. Glass doors mean there’s no place to have a light on without waking up the other person.

        1. T3k*

          Second this. If you’re allowed to, there’s some nice frosted styles out there for this purpose that you can put on the glass.

          1. Ms. Taylor Sailor*

            My department (I work at a large university) is currently displaced because our original building was condemned, so the building isn’t ours per se. My department consists of me and two others, so we don’t need a lot of space and a different department had extra offices we’re currently using while we wait for the new building (long story). And literally no one else covers their doors, not even higher-ups. The only person who didn’t have their door changed was the other department’s AVP.

            Truthfully, it’s not a pressing issue, more of an annoyance than anything else, so I feel like I’d look out of touch if I said anything. And nothing I do involves sensitive information or deep focus, so I really don’t NEED the privacy, it was just nice before the changed the doors.

            1. Ms. Taylor Sailor*

              I also apologize, I did write “as needed” in my original post, though I really don’t ever NEED to have total privacy. Just nice to have the option.

    2. Nana*

      Worked at a school, where every interior door [office as well as classroom] had a window for personal safety reasons. Co-worker locked her door and covered her window when she was at lunch…with a sign that said “OTL – back at 1PM”

  187. Hummus*

    I just need to vent. I had a very frustrating situation last weekend at my part-time church choir director job. The organizational chart has gotten more ambiguous, but the pianist at my church is sort of my superior. For the past six years, he has said inappropriate things to me, not every week, but frequently enough.

    These have included:
    Calling me sexy
    Referencing my looks a lot
    Telling jokes about sex (in a church, no less!)
    Saying that there were definitely people in the church who thought we were a couple (gross!)
    Tell me the state of his genitals (related to his bladder cancer, but still)

    The list goes on. I let him off the hook because he is so old and a widower. When I first started, I even went to lunch with him a few times because he’s just such a sad, lonely person. Over time, his ickiness won out over my pity. I had also gotten into the habit of taking a ride to the train station from him. It seemed like a nice thing he was doing at first, over time it became a habit, and I knew he would treat me poorly if I declined.

    Well, he finally crossed the line, and I told him I would not be taking these rides anymore. I told him what he had said had made me feel uncomfortable. He then refused to play the piano for my choir that Sunday. Afterwards, asked me if I would be looking for a new job (as a threat). I said, “No, are you?” and informed him that we both would be doing our jobs.

    Before the next rehearsal, he made me have “a talk” about it. This talk, in which he was telling me that he “isn’t after” me, included him saying that I am his ideal woman and telling me that his penis does not function well.

    He also said that in his 70 years, no one has ever told him he made them uncomfortable, and he is a very good reader of people, so he could tell. This was to tell me that my feelings were not valid. Commentariat, I’ve seen him make MANY people uncomfortable. This man cannot tell the difference between a grimace and a smile, something that I’m pretty sure evolved pretty early in primates.

    I just grimaced and told him that’s all well and good, but I would not be taking rides from him. He informed me that he expected me to be mugged or shot and the offer is always there.

    I know I’ve made a lot of mistakes in this situation, including not using the words, “That makes me uncomfortable” until this week. Even in that weirdo “talk,” I said, “I don’t need to hear about (the state of your penis),” when I should have said, “Do not tell me about that.” Hopefully I will feel more in control of the situation now. And if he decides to not do his job because of it, I will take it to the boss.

    1. Anonforthis*

      I think you should take it to your boss now. I mean, this is pretty text-book hostile work environment stuff. One could even argue that it’s quid pro quo as well, since he’s basically saying “you need to put up with my incredibly offensive comments or I’m not going to do my job/you’ll be out of a job.” Honestly, you need to escalate this immediately. Good lord. I’m furious on your behalf. It’s incredible that we still have to put up with this nonsense in 2019.

      1. valentine*

        Please report him.

        None of this is on you. Be kind to yourself. He has a duty of care to you and should be leading by example, especially as a church employee, a church elder, and an elder in general. If you can’t avoid him while they investigate, at least avoid being alone with him: Insist he have a minder.

        There is no good excuse for him to tell you about his genitals, ever, not even “Oh, no, the piano has fallen on me. Would you please put those bits yonder on ice and call 911?” If y’all are Christian, he knows Matthew 5:29: “And if thy right eye offend thee, pluck it out, and cast it from thee: for it is profitable for thee that one of thy members should perish, and not that thy whole body should be cast into hell.”

    2. LaDeeDa*

      Omg!! This is Awful! Isn’t the minister/ pastor the boss of everyone? You need outside help. This man can’t continue like this!

    3. Emi.*

      Yeeeeeesh this is gross and you have every right to talk to his boss right now (or go straight to the pastor! this is a pastoral issue as well as a management issue).

    4. MeganTea*

      Please, take this to your boss NOW. None of this is your fault; none of the “mistakes” you have made absolve Creepy Pianist of his behavior. It is NOT your job to educate Creepy Pianist that he doing and saying inappropriate things.
      I worry that Creepy Pianist will talk to your boss first and spin everything as in you are being “too uptight” or “overreacting.” Talk to your boss first, so you can loop your boss in and lay everything out matter-of-factly and objectively.

    5. Ms. Taylor Sailor*

      “I’m not after you, but I want to make sure you to know you’re my ideal woman.” Sadly, that’s not even the worst thing he’s said to you.

      This guy is either terrifyingly unaware of how ridiculous and inappropriate he is or is trying to manipulate you (I’d put tons of money on the latter, particularly since he’s made threats about not doing his own damn job and tried to scare you into accepting his ride requests). I’m with Anonforthis. Please tell someone IMMEDIATELY.

    6. Four lights*

      Ditto to what everyone else said. I would write down what he’s done and take it to his boss now. Don’t get into whether he makes other people uncomfortable or not, just list the things he’s done to you re so-called jokes, etc. and the retaliation.

      I get why you let him off the hook before, but I think this is a lesson to all of us not to do this. We make excuses for people’s inappropriate behavior, but the fact is if it were a 4-year old doing it we would correct them, and shouldn’t these people know better than a 4-year-old?

    7. Batgirl*

      Re your “mistakes”, you’ve been perfectly logical in your approach with this dude. You considered apparent desperation to be a sign of loneliness, you treated a nice gesture as a nice gesture, you expected him to pick up on your lack of enthusiasm, because he’s socially functioning (and he is! He enjoys making people uncomfortable!). Understanding him would have involved viewing yourself as a sex object, he’s entitled to by virtue of his position and gender. Illogical.

      There’s no winning with this guy. Go back to the fork in the road and you’ll still end up in the same place no matter how often you change your interactions with him. You can’t tackle this.

      Only exposure works. It’s very difficult for mould to continue to grow in spotlight. Tell your boss!

  188. CorporateFarmWoman*

    I work a very senior level corporate job, mostly remote, and I live on a farm only 35 min from my local office. The last 3 days have been interesting while trying to my job—
    I rescued a neglected and abused donkey that took three days to capture.
    22 chicks arrived from the hatchery.
    My own chickens hatched 12 chicks.
    One of my goats got attacked by a neighbor’s dog and I’m waiting for the vet.
    And I rescued an injured lamb that was about to be killed.
    Farm? Not so much. More of a sanctuary!
    And I ended up cancelling and rebooking a dozen meetings that are now going to all happen on Monday and Tuesday.

    1. E*

      I work full time in a corporate office job, and my husband and I are starting a small goat farm. Can confirm that keeping up with regular job plus multiple oddball goat/chicken/dog issues per week is exhausting. Good thing they’re cute!

    2. Jeannie*

      Make sure you tell people at work about your “adventures” or activities outside work. They will find them fascinating and you will stick in their minds. Also, if appropriate, when you meet up with the people whose meetings you have re-scheduled, tell them about why – with a bit of humour or sadness. Again, they will have a permanent reason to remember who you are.

  189. Natalia*

    Any advice welcome! I gave notice yesterday at the job that I’ve held for the past 3 years. I’ve of course already received an offer and accepted and had requested a start in 3 weeks (actually, 3.5 since I will start mid-week) so that I could give my current employer a little more time in their search for a replacement. Unfortunately, the timing isn’t the best as the owners are out of town all next week, 2 days the following week, then vacation the week I leave. The time between my interview and offer was 1 week, so this really couldn’t be helped. My boss was butt-hurt and requested I give another week. I declined as I had already requested a longer notice period and was given as much as my new employer could offer (I explained this). Current boss is now “sad” (her words), is concerned about finding time to locate a replacement, and wants to discuss when she returns. I am looking for advice on what exactly I should say to her, keeping it short and to the point. Fun tidbit – the company I am leaving is my parent’s business, and my boss is also my mother. This is probably why I am having a hard time finding a good script for the eventual ‘talk’ that will be both professional and firm.

    1. Anonforthis*

      Oh wow. Just stick to your guns and politely but firmly reiterate that you can’t reschedule your start date at the new job, so sorry.
      I’d love to hear how this ultimately works out, so please keep us updated.

    2. LaDeeDa*

      Congratulations on your new job!
      Your mom being your boss makes it so much more complicated. A regular butt hurt boss gets pretty much nothing from me. But managing your mom… uggg.

    3. fposte*

      I was filled with breezy answers until I got to the last two sentences. Oof. Do you live with her or will you at least be able to leave this conversation behind when you go home?

      “Mom, I have learned so much from working with you, but it’s time for me to leave the nest. I think it’s important we adhere to professional standards to help us through a complicated transition, and I’ll help you as much as possible with a transition through the notice period. We’re both experienced business people and I’m sure we can understand that this is emotional but also still manage a traditional business transition over the usual two-week period.” Basically, a touch of parental emotional blackmail, a touch of professional emotional blackmail, and a clear expectation that you have the power to enforce.

    4. A Simple Narwhal*

      Ha talk about burying the lede! I was going to say to keep it professional and short, and keep in mind that notice periods aren’t for the company to find your replacement, it’s about you transitioning over your work to someone else, but that bit at the end that this is a(/your) family business and you work for your mom? That completely threw me for a loop and makes things more complicated, as mixing business and family always does.

      So…did she have any idea that you wanted to change jobs? Had this position in the family business been initiated as a temporary (get some experience/help us out and then we all expect you to move on) or was the thought that you’d work there forever and eventually take over? Are you close to your mom and she’s been totally blindsided about you looking for other work at all? Maybe your family is the most well-adjusted and boundary-setting family business ever, (which would be rare and amazing!) but the fact that you can’t/won’t be able to talk to your mom/boss about this until she returns feels like it means something. It’s great if she’s handling this exactly how she would treat any other employee, aka she can’t/wouldn’t talk to them until she’s back in the office, but I’ve found that boundaries go out the window in cases like this, so I don’t know if this is a reflection at all of your relationship, or her location means she’s truly unreachable, or she’s the most professional person with amazing restraint on the entire planet.

      I sincerely hope I’m not being insulting, or inferring meaning where there is none, I most certainly don’t mean to be implying anything about the relationship with your mom at all, but since this isn’t just a boss you can say “hey I’m very sorry about the timing and potentially leaving you in a lurch, this opportunity just fell into my lap and I couldn’t pass it up. I am giving as much notice as I can and I will work hard to ensure that my transition is smooth and that I leave you guys in the best possible shape that I can” and then never see again, I think your relationship may affect how you want to handle this. And hey, maybe you can just say that! So while normally if a boss takes a departure personally that’s on them and you don’t really need to worry about it, the fact that it’s a family member that (I assume) you want to see and interact with again, it can no longer be just business, it is a little personal, and that may shape how you want to handle things.

      Apologies for rambling, I’ve worked for a family member before and know firsthand that it can be really messy, even if you do everything you should.

      1. Natalia*

        No, I don’t think she had an idea that I was looking for a change, but I had toyed with the idea of letting her know I was looking. I decided against this for a couple reasons 1) I was at the very beginning stages of looking, only 3 weeks in or so and only 1 call back, and 2) we had agreed at the beginning that we would leave our mother-daughter hats off during work and attempt to be as professional as possible. This last reason I think has more to do with our personal relationship – we are not close and I do not confide in her, so it made sense (to me) to not confide in her about this.

        There was never an understanding that I would eventually take over (no desire to do that, at all!) and no, it was not a temporary ‘help you out for a little while’ position, either. She had always made comments about ‘when you move on’, etc., though we never discussed that specifically. Boss/Mom is definitely taking this personally, though I am literally the only employee (the office is my mom [COO] & dad [CTO] + me [admin]), so I couldn’t say how she has handled resignations in the past. Her and my dad are at a professional conference, so they are definitely reachable, though she had emailed and said she was ‘sad’ and ‘needed time to separate and process’.

        I like your script! Being that we are not close (and honestly, this move has a lot to do with the emotional toll working for my mom has brought up and I needed to leave for personal, as well as professional, reasons), I want to take the high road and keep this as professional and succinct as possible. Working for family is something I will absolutely NEVER do again!

        1. A Simple Narwhal*

          I think keeping it professional is the best you can do, and acknowledge/accept that no matter what you do, she’s probably still going to be upset, and that’s ok. Congrats on the new job!

        2. Not A Manager*

          She probably does need time. Whatever you are feeling about working for your mom when you’re not very close, she is probably having feelings too. I’d take her at her word that she needs time to separate and process, and I’d just proceed on the assumption that she will shortly come to accept your timeline.

    5. Zephy*

      The notice period isn’t for hiring a replacement, it’s so you can tie up loose ends on your projects and notify everyone that needs to know about your leaving, so they can plan around you not being there. In a perfect world, there would be someone waiting in the wings to step into your role as soon as you vacate it, but this world is far from perfect. If your mom is reasonable, you might try flipping the script on her, see how she would feel if she were hiring someone who tried to push back an already-agreed-upon start date, but I’m guessing that’s not the case, since you’re asking for advice.

      The best tactic is probably just to become a broken record. “Sorry, I can’t. My last day is X.” Hopefully you have your own shelter and transportation, but if not, right heckin’ now is the time to figure that out, even if it’s temporary until the checks start coming in from NewJob. You’re grown, just because your boss is your mom doesn’t mean she can keep you from leaving the family business, but if you live in her house and/or depend on her for rides, better find a new arrangement immediately.

      1. Natalia*

        Thanks! I am already in the process of getting all my documentation together, which I let boss/mom know that I am actively working on. Her complaint was that she wouldn’t have time to start looking for a replacement due to her being out of town, and also mentioned knowledge transfer, which I have been planning on us doing later next week when she is in the office.

        I, fortunately, live independently and have transportation, so I can ‘get away’. I could try the flip the script on her, though knowing my mom, that wouldn’t go over well :/ I have a feeling I will need to become a broken record!

    6. MommyBusiness*

      Tell them ‘Mom, Dad! This is an amazing career opportunity for me, I have to take it. I really hope you understand and wish me well!’

    7. WellRed*

      Make a clean break. Don’t offer to be available or on call or help out past your last day in any way. Talk about burying the lede, indeed ; )

  190. TotesMaGoats*

    My sister (finally) left her totally toxic job of four years and moved into a new role at a different hospital. She is no longer overworked and unappreciated. She has a shorter commute and a sane boss. All good things and changes from Old Job but she’s having such a tough time adjusting to not knowing all the things and not having a support network. Plus, her predecessor was majorly slacking. And she has to be the bearer of bad news that no there are actually no policies. So she’s overwhelmed. She vents and I’m trying to be supportive but she’s feeling a lot of guilt (thanks former coworkers who keep texting her to come back) and regret at leaving. Then the other part of me wants to shake her a say, “You lost 40 pounds in the last year because you were so stressed and overworked that you didn’t eat/had gastritis. They didn’t appreciate you as a person or what you brought except when they overworked you and you saved their butts. STOP IT. You made the right choice and there is a learning curve. You are smart. Deal with it.”
    So, I’m a hair frustrated because I get it but at the same time after years of hearing how bad it was I want her to realize truly how awful the place was even though her coworkers were wonderful.

    1. Chris M*

      I don’t know about shaking her, but there’s definitely a middle ground here. You can calmly but firmly tell her something like, “Every new job has a learning curve, and it will probably be stressful for a while. Try to remember all the positives about this new job, and all the negative about the job you left. When you former coworkers text you, recommend to them that they look for a new job and leave it at that.” (Alison would have come up with something better). I wouldn’t mention her weight loss.

    2. CupcakeCounter*

      Its really hard going from the subject matter expert to basically a know-nothing. I had it bad when I moved jobs 6 1/2 years and that is definitely something I am keeping in mind while looking around now. It really does eat at you!

    3. Argh!*

      You never eliminate your problems by moving from one job to another. You just trade one set of problems for a different set of problems. The trick is to find a job with problems you don’t mind dealing with.

      (The same is true for relationships!)

  191. Way to the Dawn*

    I had an interview last Tuesday where the manager said I didn’t have quite enough experience for this position but that there was another position in her department that she thought I would be a great fit for. The thing is that it wasn’t open yet and she said there was no timeline for it. I thought it was just a nice way of letting me down and nothing would come from it, but she emailed me a few hours later reiterating that she wants to talk to me about this other position and to “stay posted”. My question is how long do I wait before I reach out to her again about this position, especially when she said that she did not have a timeline?

  192. Fey*

    I recently went for an interview (for a people manager/recruiting position at a trading company) where, just before giving me this piece of info, the interviewer gave a caveat: “Ok, so, I didn’t tell you this over the phone so as not to scare you off but…”

    It all happened so fast I barely had time to let my imagination run wild.

    So the thing is, the entire office operates on a 12-hour work day. Work starts around 7:30am (“7:45 is fine too,” she said) and “I typically leave around 6:15, 6:30pm.”
    Me: What are the official hours?
    Her: No official hours, per se. 11ish hours physically spent in the office is fine.

    However, the company offers generous perks in lieu of a normal 9-6. Everyone gets a private-hire car service to and from the office daily, breakfast, lunch and dinner provided for, and hour-long bootcamps AND yoga classes twice weekly. Supposedly folks can join these classes at the time they’re offered, at 3pm, i.e. during the work day, and time spent not working is still counted as part of the work day. There’s even a small gym within the office where folks could work out on their own, outside of those bootcamps, and yes, still counted as part of the work day. So really, once you take out the time spent working out, and your lunch hour, in the end your work hours come down to about nine. But physically? Physically you’re in the office for 11, 12 hours.

    Me: Not to be funny but why does the people manager need to stay in the office the same length of time as the traders, network engineers, etc.?
    Her: To keep it fair for everyone. Also, the traders are the ones making the money, so the people manager has to stay in the office to see to the needs of ‘the people’.

    She also briefly mentioned sometimes having to “wash dishes that the guys leave in the sink”. They have a dishwasher – not sure why handwashing is necessary, and by the people manager at that? These are grown men (and from Ivy League schools, she said) who should know how to load the dishwasher, yes/no? I didn’t get to clarify because she literally mentioned this at the lift when she was walking me out and the lift arrived.

    Umm. Is this…normal? Should I bother? I told her my expected salary during the first interview over the phone and she asked me again during the in-person interview because she “forgot” (she didn’t note it down the first time? Red flag?). I felt awkward about increasing my range for fear of seeming obvious that I was increasing it after knowing about the work hours, so I repeated what I said on the phone. Two seconds after I said it, I realised I was being silly. Who cares if zI seemed obvious? I SHOULD have increased my range based on now knowing the work day is a lot longer than is normal. Tsk.

    Again, is this normal and should I bother? Are the perks worth it?

    1. Piphan*

      Well it’s not normal. Whether it’s worth it is something only you can decide. You might consider looking at GlassDoor to see whether other people thought the perks were worth the hours.

      1. Fey*

        The perks are always listed as pros and the long hours are listed as cons, but there’s no elaboration. So, not very helpful.

    2. Fey*

      Typo: Who cares if *I* seemed obvious?

      Also, she emailed me today saying I’ve made it to the next round. “The next step is an onsite interview with five members of our team. These will be one on one interviews and may last up to 5 hours.”

      Five hours! Why?!

        1. The New Wanderer*

          If you were inclined, you could always up the salary expectation after you learn more about the position at this in-person interview loop. Like 2x whatever you said. That wouldn’t be enough for me to trade work life balance though – it’s nice that they feed you and provide exercise breaks (at least in theory) but 11-12 hours physically in the office forever? Not for me.

    3. Aurion*

      Thing is, you can choose your gyms times or dinner fare when you’re in charge of it. Does the on-site gym have the stuff you want for a workout? Does the food serve appeal to you–every day?

      I wouldn’t mind perks like that for occasional crunch times, but I certainly wouldn’t want it as a daily expectation. And when you spend all that time at the office (not even necessarily doing work!), you have a lot less time to choose to do stuff that you could be doing.

      1. Fey*

        I wasn’t able to get a good look at the gym. I think I saw a cross trainer but no weights or kettle bells. I prefer metcon sessions to running on the treadmill, so assuming there are no weights/kettle bells, it wouldn’t be the kind of gym I’d enjoy anyway. (The twice-weekly bootcamps might come close to the workout style I’d enjoy though.)

        Food wise, you can order from any restaurant Postmates style, so you get to choose what you want.

        I know – these perks should be for crunch times, right? But to have all my three meals in a day in the office is lame. I could of course go out and spend my own money on lunch if I wanted, but why would I, if it’s paid for? The work day and perks are designed to keep me in the office all day long and that’s kind of…disconcerting.

    4. A Simple Narwhal*

      Runnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnn

      I can’t imagine that if they are that upfront about 11 hour days, that they are limited to only 11 hours. Will you even be allowed to take advantage of those perks? I can see them saying “oh well the trader had to work through lunch, it’s not fair to let you step out for a yoga class”. (I also hate the idea of “fairness” over things like this in offices. Different jobs require different things, we all know that! Making someone stay late because others stay late is dumb!) If you want to go through with the other interview I’d recommend absolutely increasing your salary requirements, but I honestly think no amount of money is worth having a work-life balance that terrible.

      1. Bostonian*

        Yeah, the fact that they are requiring certain people to be in the office 12 hours out of “fairness”, and not because those people actually have 12 hours of urgent/important work to do during that time is a MAJOR red flag.

      2. Fey*

        >>>I can see them saying “oh well the trader had to work through lunch, it’s not fair to let you step out for a yoga class”.

        Ha! Why do I foresee this statement as well?! Gut instinct?

    5. Four lights*

      Only you can decide if it’s worth it. Take your time. If you’re single, maybe it’s ok for now. But if I had a family them providing me dinner would never make up for eating it with my kids.

      I don’t think it’s too late to increase your salary range. “After some reflection, based upon the job duties we discussed I would have to change my salary range to X.”

    6. MissDisplaced*

      Hours: Well, I guess as this is (I’m assuming) an international trading company there would be a need to have long hours like this. Out of the ordinary, but seen as normal for them. I sort of see their point about keeping it “fair” and giving all those perks. Not sure I agree… but I see the point.

      Dishes: Unless you’re cleanup, hardly see why that’s the duties of this role. You’re not a dishwasher!

      I suppose there are people who may be ok with this and adapt provided the salary was good. But 12 hour days are LONG days, perks or not (and perks do NOT equal salary as they don’t pay the bills). And I’m assuming there isn’t overtime because it’s exempt salaried work. I’m not sure I’d classify this as red flag territory, as they were forthcoming in the interview at least. But I’d seriously consider if it’s worthwhile for you.

      1. Fey*

        Yep, it’s an international trading company.

        Yeah, I shouldn’t have to wash dishes. That’s stupid.

        Uh huh, exempt salaried. No overtime.

        The job is looking worse and worse as I’m reading and replying to everyone’s comments. Lol.

    7. fposte*

      Whoa. I would only do this if I could make serious bank and plan to leave after a year or two. If they’re not offering serious bank, that’s a sign that they don’t value the extraordinary commitment they’re seeking.

      And the notion that the change of pace in a 60-hour week is anything called a “bootcamp” is hilarious.

    8. Reba*

      Yes, this is normal in many areas of trading and finance. Burnout is also normal. :) That is at least true for traders and quants etc. I do agree with you that the “fairness” reasoning is bogus. Anyway, normal or not, you get to decide if it’s for you!

      1. Fey*

        Would you happen to know if it’s normal for there to be more men than women in these areas? There are only two women in an office of 28 and I’m not liking that one bit.

        1. Reba*

          Yes, that sounds about right. I mean, not right, but common.

          There is a recent NYT article about “greedy” jobs that describes their impact on women in the workplace.

    9. Anonforthis*

      This is just my opinion FWIW, but I’d run like hell and not look back. Do they let you leave your desks for bathroom breaks, or do they make everyone have catheters to increase efficiency? Obviously that’s sarcasm, but seriously, this place sounds looney toons. I need my evening decompression time and the freedom to choose my own meals, work out or not as my preference is, etc. Yikes, yikes, yikes. Private car service? What if you want to leave in the middle of the day? Nope nope nope.

      1. Fey*

        This place is sounding more and more looney toons as I read and reply to everyone’s comments. Haha.

        Yeah, me time and freedom of choice is a necessity for me. Not feeling too comfortable about having all three meals in one day in the office – even if I can choose which restaurant to order from. And I’d feel inclined to work out and do yoga just to break up my day, as well. Not that that would be a bad thing (the interviewer told me she’s the fittest she’s ever been since she joined the company, for this reason) – I love working out and I love yoga and I’m very likely going to do either after a normal 9-hour work day elsewhere. But still.

    10. Anonymousse*

      The hrs may be normal for some industries like biglaw or ibanking but it is my understanding that staff usually never stays past 6pm even in the NY offices. This is not normal! Also eff to the no to the dish washing.

    11. Banana*

      Personally I would really like a set-up like that. I’d be perfectly happy to work 7:30-7:30 if that included all meals cooked for me and a gym workout, and I got a private car to drive me. I mean, right now, I leave my house at 7:30 and return home at 7:30, but I have to prepare all my own meals and no one drives me anywhere!

      The red flag here, to me, is “wash the guys’ dishes.” That means either all the “people so important they can’t wash their own dishes” are men, OR men just aren’t expected to wash dishes because their penises get in the way. Neither is acceptable. Also the expectation of your presence as a matter of fairness rather than a matter of necessity–that’s not indicative of a well-run workplace. I’d NOT be happy to be required to be there with nothing to do and no actual reason to be there.

      1. ArtK*

        The “wash the dishes” one is the bigger flag, IMO. It’s only slightly more worrisome than the “fairness” thing. I’d run quickly from this place. My guess is that the traders are demigods and anything that might upset them is “bad for the company.” That includes seeing other people leave earlier and having to wash their own dishes. Nobody should work in a place with prima donnas like that.

        1. Fey*

          >>>That includes seeing other people leave earlier and having to wash their own dishes.

          That reminds me – the interviewer told me that the previous person in this role was fired because she took “too many breaks too often”. She didn’t specify the length and frequency of the breaks, but evidently “the guys noticed and were not happy and brought it up to management”.

          Me, I’m a clean freak, rabble-rouser feminist who would want to change things up a little if I were to take the job, and I’d start with asking people to clean up after themselves. I’m guessing this won’t go down too well with men who are used to being served by their female colleagues.

          Yeah, this job is looking less and less appealing now…

          1. valentine*

            I suppose you could ask for a private bathroom in your office suite, but now I know why there’s no nap room. I can’t believe they expect you to work and work out, indoors, for 11 solid hours. No walks or taking your laptop out on the beautifully appointed campus and working by the pond? Is there an on-site pharmacy or do they just put your Vitamin D Rx on your food tray?

            I couldn’t hack anywhere near those hours, but I draw the line at dishes. People manager is the new Office Mom (*barf*) and I don’t want to know what other needs these fools have that this woman will insist you see to.

      2. Fey*

        Perspective, eh? ;)

        Actually, the office of 28 is made up of only two women (including the interviewer). I’d be woman #3 if I were to join. They hire more men than women who are obviously too important to wash their own dishes… Red flag, indeed.

    12. Psyche*

      Only you can say if the perks are worth it. If you decide you are still interested, I think it would be reasonable to email her to say that now that you know they expect 11 to 12 hours a day, you would actually need $X salary and ask if they still want to proceed. That is a big piece of information for them to hold back.

    13. Not A Manager*

      If you have to stay in the office just to be “fair,” shouldn’t they pay you the same as the traders, just to be fair?

    14. NoLongerYoung*

      If your previous salary range was based on 8 hours a day, then IF you want the perks, and can do the time….get out your calculator. Previous weekly salary/40=x per hour. Tske your per hour, now multiply by 60. That’s your new weekly salary. If you have to be there, you get paid. (The perks will not make up for the long hours…trust me.).
      And save that extra..IF you take that job. (I did work with prima donnas and the 60 hours…and …well…money and perks are not enough in the end…but it’s worse if you’ve inflated your lifestyle and have “golden handcuffs”)

    15. Batgirl*

      Ooooh it’s like red bunting.

      1) They need to correct a gender disparity but they’re asking women in interviews if they’re ok with washing dishes.
      2) Perks tend to be optional. When they’re not it’s usually favour sharking or removing excuses for non compliance.
      3) They didn’t tell you over the phone “so as not to scare you off”. That’s what phone interviews are for. What else are they waiting to tell you?
      4) They used the phrase “are the ones making the money”. You know how some stay at home parents are respected by their working spouses as providing priceless value and others are married to sexists/jerks? It’s like that.
      5) Concept of fairness is ‘treat everyone the same’ except for dishwashing.
      6) Mentions huge deal breakers as they’re walking you out. Such a coincidence!
      7) Asks for salary expectation before giving hours. Uses the word ‘forgot’ afterwards to imply your expectations shouldn’t have changed.
      8) Disrespectful of your time with a dishonest phone interview and now a five hour follow up. Probably hoping you’ll invest too much time to give up on them.
      9) Non family friendly. It probably doesn’t matter if you’re not eating dinner at home while single but this usually means sexist or ‘we like young people who don’t have lives/know any better’
      10) If “the guys” don’t like the cut of your jib, or the number of breaks you take, or your helpfulness, or not smiling, or non dishwashing the manager will absolutely defer to them instead of managing them.

      1. Fey*

        Oh! That’s the first time I’ve heard anyone say “red bunting” to mean “a string of red flags”. Did you come up with it yourself? It’s really clever and I’m going to use it from now on!

        And…YES. Yes to all but my jaw dropped at #7. Batgirl, you cracked the code! There’s a chance she genuinely forgot but if she said that she forgot *knowing* I’d feel awkward about saying, “Well, now that I know the hours are such, my expected salary range has increased to $X” then she plays dirty and she plays it well!

        (Note to self: Please learn to think faster and not get flustered!)

        #9 – OMG, she actually told me “we prefer hiring fresh grads so as to…well, not mould them, but have them adapt to our culture.” I’m not a fresh grad myself but argh! It’s all coming back to me now and it’s not looking great!

        1. Batgirl*

          Yes I did just come up with that phrase *bows*. You inspired me.

          And…of course you were flustered. She stage managed that. You’re lucky she didn’t open up a physical trap door under you. The key is to go away, think, and return with “Actually, on consideration” or “I was thinking about what you said and…” or just plain old no.

          The winner is the person who lets themselves have time for strategic thinking. Art of War: “The general who loses a battle makes but few calculations beforehand. Thus do many calculations lead to victory, and few calculations to defeat: how much more no calculation at all!”

            1. Bulbasaur*

              It does all sound (depressingly) normal for a certain type of workplace (typically NY based and in finance) although not one that I would want to have anything to do with.

              Even the perks are part of it. Google “How employers use perks like wellness” and read the article and see how neatly it fits the picture you’re painting.

              1. Fey*

                I just did, and all I can say is holy crap! I never saw perks from this angle before. I really thought of them as a bonus for working with a “cool” company. This practice of keeping us contained is cultish – designed to make you drink the kool-aid. Argh!

                1. Bulbasaur*

                  I actually interviewed at one of these places a long time ago. It was at the mild end of the scale compared to yours – outside the main financial center, and a small office consisting of just a handful of quants. Some of the cultural features seemed the same though, like the full day worth of interviews. I’m not sure why they do this exactly. This kind of thing is often a technique for screening for people who are susceptible to boundary violation (i.e., make a deliberately unreasonable request and limit your pool to applicants who agree). I don’t think that was true in my case, but perhaps it’s so much of a norm in the industry that it’s become a standard part of the culture.

                  I ended up not taking the job, probably due to cultural mismatch. The base salary they were offering was unimpressive, less than I was making at the time despite the fact that I specifically cited salary as one of my reasons for looking to move. They justified this by claiming that financial sector compensation was strongly weighted to bonuses rather than base salary (which I later learned was true) but I was from the IT sector and had learned to regard bonuses as little more than lottery tickets. They also apparently wanted me to verbally accept without actually having received a formal offer yet, which I thought was beyond odd. All of that added up to a clear no for me. They were reportedly quite disappointed – it seems I had impressed them in the interviews – but not disappointed enough to revise any of their weird hiring practices or rethink their offer.

    16. Easily Amused*

      I worked 12 hour days for the better part of 8 years as a VFX artist in movies. A lot of that time included weekend work too for totals of 60-80 hours a week regularly. The work was fun and creative and I liked my co-workers (and I sure as hell wasn’t washing anyone else’s dishes!) but I gained 40 pounds in the first 4 years with the company feeding me and had NO life outside of work. Even if they don’t suddenly require some weekend work, that will be the only time you can get any personal business done so you start prioritizing laundry and groceries over socializing. I got paid overtime which is the only reason I lasted that long. But I missed out on A LOT and have major regrets about that. It took me about 3 years to feel somewhat human again and I’m just now getting to be a part of my family member’s lives again (I lived across country from them for too long). My sister once said to me “you don’t have a job, you have a lifestyle and your lifestyle sucks.” – she was so right!

      1. Fey*

        Thank you so much for being so forthcoming about the truer side to a job with such long hours and their so-called perks. Only someone who’s gone through it can speak of it with certainty and clarity – and only if they got out. Between googling “How employers use perks like wellness” as suggested by Bulbosaur above, and your testimony and your sister calling it a lifestyle, I’m convinced this kind of job is almost like a cult. And if it kept you inside and devoted to the cause, and away from friends and family…well, that’s a cult, isn’t it? I’m not the most sociable person there is, but I really do value my me-time, with ideally no washing of other people’s dishes. It doesn’t sound like I’ll have much fun at a job like this. I haven’t responded to the interviewer’s email as yet (stalling) but I’m going to now, and I’m going to withdraw my application!

    17. blink14*

      Not sure if you’ll see this late comment, but I back everyone else who is saying to run away! I temped as a receptionist/assistant office manager about 10 years ago at a financial firm with a similar set up – except there was no gym or fitness classes. Hours for those in the financial positions seemed to be about 12 hours, everyone got in around 7 am and didn’t leave until much later.

      My hours were 9 am to 5 pm (30 minute lunch break, during which my break was covered by the office manager to man the front desk). There were about 15 people, and besides the office manager and myself, only 2 were women. There was a well stocked kitchen (drinks, fruit, yogurt, coffee, tea, cereal, etc), and the most mystifying thing of all to me at the time – free, all you can eat, high end catered lunch every day from local restaurants! For the short time I worked there, that was a major perk. But you know what was left around 5 pm every day? about 90% of that food. The two women in financial positions literally lived on yogurt, and only a small group of the men seemed to actually eat/drink anything besides coffee. The office manager insisted I take not just one serving home with me every night, but multiple servings. I believe anyone working into the dinner hour could expense meals, but again, no one seemed to eat or take much advantage of the free food offerings, besides coffee and yogurt.

      It seemed like a miserable place, and I was glad to leave when my time was up (filling in for a permanent person). I can still recall those delicious lunches (and leftovers) though!

      1. Fey*

        I’ve just seen this – thank you for taking the time to share your experience!

        So in the end, not even everyone took advantage of the free food, huh? The kitchen at this company is as well-stocked as yours was. They even get someone to come in every morning to make a hot breakfast, e.g. bacon and eggs, for whoever wishes. It was definitely framed as a major perk, this wondrous creature making hot breakfasts for everyone every day. And for a moment, I, too, thought it was cool. So I’m glad I decided to pose the question here because if it were not for people sharing their opinions and experiences, I might have continued to think it was cool!

  193. Piphan*

    Hi all. I have a fairly broad question concerning a director’s responsibilities. In two jobs now I have been surrounded by hard-working and competent coworkers, which of course is great. But the departments’ directors in both these cases are rarely seen in the office, making it unclear how much work they do. While I know that a director has to spend some time meeting with other management and clients, in both these cases that does not come close to accounting for all the time they are missing without explanation.

    Shouldn’t a director work at least as hard as their staff? Shouldn’t they be in the office more than anyone else? Yet, it seems to be pretty common for directors to just… not do that much.

    Thank you for your input.

    1. Argh!*

      I don’t worry about those things if work is going well. My supervisor makes jokes like “What’s lunch?” and comes to work on Saturdays. I think she’s a poor time manager and should stop micromanaging and start delegating more. But she made her bed she can lie in it. If she wants to rewrite every document her staff write three or four times with only minor changes in punctuation or word usage, she has a right to do that. I, on the other hand, have decided not to bother fussing over my writing because I know it will be rewritten no matter what I do.

      I wish I had your boss!

    2. ArtK*

      You’re assuming a lot here. Equating the absences with “not doing work.” It’s not your place to speculate and then judge based on that speculation.

      If they’re available when you need them, and they otherwise aren’t roadblocks for your work, let it go. If they are holding up work by not being present then you have something to bring up. But not as “You’re never here,” but as “This work is being held up and we need you. How do we make this happen more efficiently?”

  194. Dark Phoenix*

    Earlier this week there was a letter about the dumb things that employers do to make work fun, but that aren’t really fun. Like the potluck lunch that is just extra work for people who are already overworked and stressed out.

    The latest dumb thing at my workplace is an announcement that, “You are superheroes!,” so come to work dressed as your favorite superhero. There recently was a Comic Con nearby so a few people might be able to wear their costumes again. And you can always get a head start on Halloween. But, no.

      1. Four lights*

        Equally snarky/unhelpful suggestions:
        Wear a suit and Superman glasses and come in disguise.
        Black Sabbath t-shirt, jeans and scruff- Iron Man
        An eyepatch-Nick Fury
        Bruce Banner-if people say you should have worn green to be Hulk say, “That makes me angry…you won’t like me when I’m angry.

    2. Scarlet Magnolias*

      We had a thing at work where there was a party that we should show up wearing Game of Thrones costumes. No problem as I totally became Lady Oleanna and my husband was Davos Seaworth.

    3. Ms. Taylor Sailor*

      I love cons and cosplaying, but that stuff is EXPENSIVE as hell. This kind of thing can be very exclusionary for people who:
      1. Don’t like dressing up
      2. Can’t afford a costume/don’t want to buy one they otherwise have no plans to wear

      If the whole event is just dressing up with no other perks, then yeah, that’s not particularly great.

    4. Iris Eyes*

      Well people can always come as superheros that are currently their alter egos #participating/notparticipating

      1. WellRed*

        They’d probably frown on having a horse in the office but if you pass out Godiva chocolates they may overlook the neighing ; )

        1. valentine*

          Turn those frowns upside down: Will Smith is on the horse, recreating his awards show performance.

      2. Bulbasaur*

        Sneak into a windowless office or conference room somewhere with a couple of coconut shells, stick a “No peeping on pain of blindness” sign on the door, make horse galloping sounds with the shells for a while, then come back out. Done!

  195. Chocolate Teapot*

    We had a 4 day week at work with Easter Monday, and our team was very depleted. My co-worker phoned in sick on Tuesday and only got back to work on Friday. They are then taking off a day on Monday, which was approved a while ago. Co-worker then announced that they had accrued some overtime, so could they please have Tuesday off as well, with Wednesday (1st May) being a public holiday?

    My boss said no to Tuesday.

    Co-worker has a child who often gets sick too, so they take time off to care for them. I am trying to be sympathetic, but at the same time, I end up picking up co-worker’s emergencies when they are not in, and I have my own work to do. Thankfully our boss is always in the loop and very understanding, but how have other people dealt with this type of situation?

    1. fposte*

      By going to your manager and saying “I wholly support giving people the time off they need and that’s part of their compensation, but our current workflow makes short-notice absences a problem for those of us who have to cover. Can you help us find a way to spread the load around more evenly?”

      It seems like the boss has reasonable antennae, what with the saying no to Tuesday, but it also doesn’t seem like co-worker is hugely unreasonable either (the late asking for Tuesday was a bit much, but it’s also not horrible). Is there any problematic disparity of expectation here, or do you get to take plenty of time off yourself?

      1. Chocolate Teapot*

        Yes, I am able to take time off. I think the Tuesday thing was partly because co-worker had been off for 3 of the 4 working days this week, and there had been a couple of days off in the weeks prior. Obviously I don’t want to be the person tracking absence days, but this week, with other team members on holiday, did mean we were short staffed.

  196. AliV*

    Should I speak up about burnout at a dysfunctional office with an unreliable manager?

    Recently my manager brought up burnout at a one on one, in the context of my aggressive travel schedule. I’m fine with the travel, but my manager’s lack of positive feedback and the dysfunctional environment definitely are making me burned out.

    I think there’s no chance that any of this will change if I bring it up. But part of me feels like I should say something, so in case I’m ever asked if I made my feelings known I could say yes.

    So since she recently brought up the topic is this a good chance to say something? Or better to keep quiet since likely nothing will change?

    1. Argh!*

      Worth a try. If your manager is petty and vindictive, it could backfire, but more likely they’ll either ignore your concerns or address them.

      1. AliV*

        Unfortunately my manager is rather petty and vindictive, though I seriously doubt she could/would fire me. But she could make life more difficult.

        Still worth speaking up…?

        2. Psyche*

          There is no point. If you are ever asked why you didn’t say anything, say you didn’t feel that your feedback would be welcome and were worried about negative repercussions.

  197. Lauz*

    Any tips on how to resign?

    I have a job where my responsibilities far exceed my job description, and where even for my job description I’m significantly underpaid compared to the local area. I’m due to be made redundant next year and work has got so dull and bitty, and all the uncertainty about where I’ll end up has been getting to me. I like the team I work in but we’re all having to move on eventually.

    I’ve been offered a job. 40% pay rise on what I earn now. Similar role but without so much pressure. Training and support and none of the people management stuff that’s been dumped on me recently.

    I need to resign next week. I’ve never resigned before. I’m super nervous. Any advice would be much appreciated.

    1. Banana*

      Just think of it as a normal workplace event. It is not personal, and normal people know and understand that people move on and that’s life.

      First thing in the morning on the day you are going to resign, ask your boss if she has a few minutes to discuss something. If she says yes, go into her office, close her door, and say you’ve accepted a new job, and you are giving your notice of X weeks, and that you’ll do what you can to make this a smooth transition for everyone.

      It’s nerve wracking for sure, especially if you are the kind of person who doesn’t like to disappoint, but it’s normal and every boss expects this to some extent–it’s part of being a boss.

      1. Four lights*

        Ditto. And if you do a resignation letter, all it has to say is, “I am resigning from my position. My last date will be X.”

    2. Anonforthis*

      Keep it very short and professional. Make sure you type a letter beforehand. It doesn’t have to be long, just something like Dear Boss, Please accept this letter as notice of my resignation from Llama Inc. My last day will be [date]. I appreciate the opportunity to work at Llama Inc. and will be happy to assist with the transition of my job duties. Sincerely, [your name]
      Then when you meet with your manager, just say something like, I wanted to let you know that I’ll be leaving Llama Inc. Here’s my letter of resignation; my last day will be X. I’m happy to help with whatever transition is needed between now and then.
      I’m not sure what you can expect from your manager, but just take the high road, stay professional and focused, and it will be fine. Good luck! And congrats on the awesome new opportunity!

    3. Reba*

      Alison has written about this, in one of her pieces for NYMag. It’s called “How to Quit Your Job — 10 Ways to Do It Gracefully.”

      Congratulations on your new job!

    4. Kat in VA*

      Remind yourself it’s business – and just business. You’ll be made redundant next year. The only thing you’re doing here is beating them to the punch in a business decision!

  198. NonProfAnon*

    I got a question for everyone in light of Joe Biden’s presidential bid. I work for a nonprofit that serves a particular sector of the population that is mostly immigrant. I have this one male client who insists on tight hugging and cheek kissing all the younger female staffers when he sees them. He’s kinda like Biden in that I guess he’s a handsy guy? I am very uncomfortable with the touching but I don’t have the language capability to tell him no despite my physical cues (like extending my hand when he come in for a hug). I’m also cognisant of the cultural divide whereas I am from a culture that is very nonphysical, he is from a culture that is perhaps more comfortable with physical touching of strangers? How would you all handle this?

    1. Four lights*

      Don’t do anything you aren’t comfortable with. Is he only doing this to the young female staffers? To me that says it isn’t cultural; it’s because he likes kissing pretty women. I think it could be worth bringing up to your boss to have someone speak to him. Even if it were just cultural, it’s okay for someone to explain to him that hugging may not be welcome among everyone and he shouldn’t do it here.

      Find out how to say “No Thank you.” in his language, so when he goes past your hand you have something to say. I’m not sure how your job would take it, but you could gently push him away as well.

      1. NonProfAnon*

        Yep, only with the young female staffers. We have one other female staffer who isn’t in her mid 20s to early 30s and he only shakes her hand. Meanwhile, it’s a tight hug every time he sees me (mid twenties) and a kiss for our coordinator (late twenties) even though my arm is clearly extended. My work place has a history of not taking women staffers’ complaints seriously and the grandboss is a creep himself.

        1. Four lights*

          Yeah, don’t make culture an excuse. And I don’t know how the language barrier is, but I’m betting he understands the word “No.” You could also tell him yourself to stop hugging and kissing you, through a translator, or written down; however you usually communicate. If your work ask about it, you can rightly say that it’s not culturally appropriate here and you want to educate him so he can acclimate and not get in trouble.

          Also, maybe you can keep furniture like a desk between you.

          1. Psyche*

            Yes. If he tries to go past your hand to hug you, put both hands up between you and say “No.” If necessary, gently push him away or use your hands to hold him back while you step backwards. Those actions are loud and clear. If he ignores them, it is deliberate not a misunderstanding.

            1. valentine*

              Lock your elbows.

              He understands no and creeps who target young women and change their behavior based on perceived age and gender understand your body language. One of my cultures cheek-kisses, but different cultures don’t mean you have to surrender to harm. A proper meeting of cultures finds common ground or backs off.

      2. Reba*

        I agree — either address it directly with him during a time when you have an interpreter present, or ask someone who is higher up than you to take him aside and address it (they don’t have to name you). You can frame it as instructing him in an important cultural difference in polite behavior. Light air kisses on the cheek, different greetings for women and men… these I have seen as different cultural expressions. Tight hugging plus kisses is something else again.

        Good luck NonProf!

      3. Batgirl*

        Use your other hand to block (you can choose between an officer of the law stretched-out hard hand or a softer, bent at the elbow ‘no cake for me’ hand) while extending your handshake and saying “I’m a handshaker”. Do this with a big smile, because offering your hand is an honour and should be done positively. If he pins you into a hug regardless, push away with both hands and repeat: “I don’t hug, I shake hands” Extend your hand again and make him either take it or leave it.

        Pushback? Quite likely. Responses:
        “Well I hope that if I offer you my hand, you will take it”
        “Even when it’s well meant it’s not really the practice around here”
        “Nevertheless”
        “You should probably know that most of my young female colleagues prefer handshakes over hugs, just in case you didn’t know that”
        (The last one raises the stakes because you’re pointedly raising his M.O. so I wouldn’t do this if he has a lot of power and no one has your back. Otherwise go for it)

        1. Batgirl*

          Meant to add that even if he doesn’t understand the words he’ll be able to hear your tone and see that your not letting the language barrier excuse fly.

    2. it happens*

      You are not making this awkward, he is making this awkward. Practice with a friend (even the other woman he does this to)- you extend your arm to shake hands, he moves in for a hug, you flex your hand up into the stop position, look him in the eye and say “I prefer to shake hands” in a pleasant neutral tone.
      It will not be easy. It will be the right thing to do.

    3. Nacho*

      Give a flat no, with no room for interpretation. If he comes in for a hug anyway, physically push him away and remind him that you said “no”.

  199. I Have No Clue What My Name Used To Be*

    A few weeks ago, I asked my former boss if she’d be willing to serve as a reference for my job search. I told her that not only was I wanting to leave my job, but that I wanted to leave and transition into a different industry as well. She graciously agreed.

    However, I found out today that there’s a good chance that she’ll be coming back to be my old boss again.

    Eeeeeeeek!

    I’m fairly confident that she wouldn’t push me out before I was ready to leave. However, I’m worried about not being able to quickly switch careers if the job search sucks.

    In a situation like this, how long is too long to stick around? When would I be overstaying my welcome?

    1. Four lights*

      If she does come back, I think it would make sense to talk with about it–“Since I already told you I was starting a job search I wanted to let you know that it’s still in the early stages. Please let me know if you think the fact that I may be leaving is going to impact my position here.”

      I think you can stay as long as you want. Just because you said you were looking doesn’t obligate you to resign after a certain period of time. Reasonable people understand that job searches can take a long time, don’t always pan out, and may be put on hold for other reasons.

  200. A Job Seeker*

    I’m wondering if anyone has any experience with this situation. I just left a job interview. I feel like it went well and like the people I interviewed with would be great colleagues. I just got home and want to send a thank you note but realized that I don’t have their contact information. I was told their first but not last names and, since I wasn’t given their names in writing, I don’t remember all of them. I’ve thought that maybe I could write to my contact person in HR and ask for their names and contact information. I’m also thinking, though, that trying this hard to make sure I send thank you notes would seem excessive (after all, if it’s that important in their company culture, wouldn’t the interviewers have given me their business cards? or wouldn’t my HR contact have sent me their names ahead of time?) and perhaps a bit desperate. Thoughts?

    1. Iris Eyes*

      A thank you email sent to your HR contact with a request to forward it to the people you interviewed with (but use their names)

    2. I'm A Little Teapot*

      I have sent an email to the contact person, expressing that I enjoyed the conversations with x, y and z, etc.

  201. Carpathia*

    Advice on things to do before starting a new job?

    Could be either mental/physical preparation for the actual job or things you wished you’d gotten sorted in your personal life before you started something new?

    1. Four lights*

      You could try to figure out some practical aspects of the job- commute, parking, what you’ll do for lunch, what to wear.

      You could brainstorm if you have any weaknesses and how to address them. For example, I’m pretty shy and introverted, so at a new job I make a point to greet people and try to get to know them. I’m also afraid of asking too many questions, so I have to remind myself that I’m learning and it’s okay.

      You could brainstorm questions you may have like, how do you call in sick, how do you use your PTO.. hopefully these will be covered but sometimes work places are disorganized.

      1. Alianora*

        “You could brainstorm if you have any weaknesses and how to address them. For example, I’m pretty shy and introverted, so at a new job I make a point to greet people and try to get to know them. I’m also afraid of asking too many questions, so I have to remind myself that I’m learning and it’s okay.”

        I like that suggestion a lot. First impressions can make such a big difference. I’ve had coworkers who thought of me as outgoing and friendly because I invited them out to lunch my first week. I’m normally pretty quiet at work and people often read me as shy, but being friendly in the early stages primed them to interpret differently. One was actually really surprised when my manager described me as quiet, even though I acted the same way around both of them.

    2. Sarah*

      Enjoy the time off. The first few days in particular of starting a new job are exhausting. Doing your best to start off relaxed and happy is the best thing you can do for yourself.

  202. Manders*

    This is a minor issue, but: Help! I’ve been invited to a women’s book club in my office and I don’t want to do it. I love reading, but 1) I think I have a very different taste in entertainment than many of the women in the office, 2) I don’t really love participating in single-gender activities, and 3) We’re in a tech-adjacent industry and I don’t think it’s a super great idea to start separating people out by gender for any reason in this sort of atmosphere.

    How do I bow out gracefully?

    1. Four lights*

      A la Austin Powers: “Sorry, that’s just not my bag, baby!”

      But seriously, “Thank you so much for inviting me, but it’s just not something I’m very interested in/ not something I have time for right now.” or “I prefer to spend my break time doing X.”

    2. Manders*

      I should add that at my last job I was pretty obviously penalized for not being sufficiently gender-conforming (yelled at for not changing my name to my husband’s name, told my personality is “too abrasive” when I behaved the same way as my male boss, interrogated about my reproductive choices, etc.), so I’m maybe a little on edge about separating people out by gender in the office for any reason.

    3. Psyche*

      Would you be interested if it was a coed book club? If so, then straight up tell them that you don’t feel comfortable with single-gender activities, especially since you are in a tech field. If not, you could tell them “Thanks, but I don’t really enjoy book clubs. I’m very picky about what I read.”

      1. Manders*

        Yeah, I think I would be interested in a co-ed book club, because I know some of the men in the office like the same types of fiction I enjoy. And I think I’d be interested in a single-gender club if we were specifically focusing on nonfiction books about succeeding in this field as women, since it can be difficult and I genuinely could use some mentorship there, but it seems like that’s not what this is.

        To be a little more specific, my tastes run toward SFF, pulpy detective stories, and horror. I know tons of women like reading and writing those genres, but in some people’s minds they’re still “boy stuff.” This club seems to want to read coming-of-age literary fiction, which is fine, but definitely not my idea of a good time.

        1. Batgirl*

          I think you could say everything you’ve said here.
          “I know you all like x, I’m not sure I can discuss that genre very well. If the club ever becomes more y or z or if it becomes more co-ed, do let me know because Bob and I have similar tastes and would love a club format (check this with Bob). I wouldn’t mind joining in on a girl’s night either: possibly if we were looking at women-in-tech books, if that ever happens. In the meantime I hope you all have loads of fun.”

        2. Scarlet Magnolias*

          I totally feel you on that! My library has a poor selection of horror, and I am constantly requesting new horror fiction. I would be so happy if I could find a book club that would specialize in that genre. Even horror classics like Dracula, Shirley Jackson’s books and Arthur Machen or H.P. Lovecraft.
          Right now I’ve been rereading the Benjamin January series by Barbara Hambly. Well crafted mysteries with a touch of supernatural, and a beautiful take on New Orleans.

    4. Manders*

      The club’s during work hours, so it would be hard to use that as an excuse. And these women aren’t unintelligent, we just happen to have different tastes in fiction.

    5. Overeducated*

      If you actually want to be direct, tell them about your thoughts on separating out by gender in your industry. But honestly I wouldn’t. I’d say something like, “Thanks so much! I’m afraid I’m just too busy right now and don’t know how I could fit it in, but I appreciate the thought, enjoy!” (If another co-ed book club came up you wanted to join…well, you got less busy?)

    6. WellRed*

      There’s no better reason than different tastes in reading to bow out of a book club. No need to make it about gender unless you want to for other reasons.

    7. Not Into Book Clubs*

      I’ve used the excuse that I prefer to read at my own pace to get out of book clubs – maybe that could work for you? Framing it as not wanting to hold the others back (regardless of your actual reading speed) can help.

  203. Lucina*

    Could I please get some opinions on choosing between two job? I’ve been looking for a simple office job position to help pay for a post-bacc degree while I do school stuff after work hours.

    Job 1 – Admin Assistant at Local University
    + Good pay (~$18/hr)
    + Possibly full-time (it’s still being decided)
    – Long commute (~1-1.5 hr each way)
    – 3 month contract with a chance of it being extended into a permanent position

    Job 2 – Tutor at an After School Program
    + Shortest commute I’ve ever had in my life (12 minutes walk from home)
    + Friend E has worked there before (her uncle owns the business) and notes that it’s ridiculously easy, so I won’t be tired to do homework after working
    – Horrible pay ($13/hr)
    – Part-time (~15 hrs / week)

    Please note that “good/bad” pay is based on the fact that I’ve been only out of school recently and my highest paying position so far has been $17/hr (I originally planned on using the experience for grad school but changed academic fields completely with my new degree program).

    I’m leaning more towards Job 1 (admin assistant) but the possibility of it not turning into a permanent position worries me since I’ve never dealt with that kind of situation. And I’m worried that the commute would slowly kill me especially with my classes. Job 2 would be amazing if it only gave me more hours…

    1. Four lights*

      One thing to think about is how much money do you actually need to make per month? Also, try to figure out how much you’d have to spend on gas for Job 1, because that will add up. With Job 2, you could always look for another part time job to make up the slack.

      1. Lucina*

        I actually don’t own a car (I gave it to my parents since they need it more) so I’d be using my local public transit system. That’s where the 1-1.5 hr commute for Job 1 comes from – if I drove, it’d be around 2/3 of the time instead but more gas cost. While my transit pass costs $20 a month for unlimited rides.

    2. Gladiator*

      Depends how valuable your time is to you. Making more money but have way less time isn’t always a win. Can you handle giving up 3 hours every day? Or 15 hours a week on commute?
      Further more, do any of these places offer Tution reimbursement?
      How’s the work environment?

      1. Lucina*

        Sadly, I haven’t seen any company offer tuition reimbursement while I’ve been searching for positions. I’ve kept the fact that I’m enrolled in a post-bacc program a secret because I was worried that people would skip on my resume – not sure how the conversation of “sooo I’m in a program that’s very different than this job posting and I would appreciate being hired to help pay for this” would go?

        1. WellRed*

          When I had a unversity job, I could take 2 free classes a semester. Csm you study on the commute?

    3. WJan*

      Is the commute with Job 1 driving or public transport? Would you be able to use some of that time for schoolwork, or is it time you’re tied up? I don’t see how you could possibly work FT, commute up to 3 hours a day, and still have time for school.

      Job #2 for now and look for Job #3?

      1. Lucina*

        Public transport (yes it’s pathetic but I have very personal circumstances for choosing not to drive in my city). I was thinking of using the commute time to at least do readings? I had a similar situation when I attended college (work + classes from 8AM – 5PM, commute home, eat, study) which… was not fun but sadly I’m not in a position with a lot of choices.

        Do you think there would be a good time period to eventually move on from Job 2 to Job 3? It’s a good friend’s uncle’s business so I’m not sure when it would be appropriate for me to eventually move on if I were to take Job 2. After 6 months? A year?

        1. Parenthetically*

          Taking public transport is… in absolutely no way pathetic. What an odd thing to say.

        2. Psyche*

          Since it’s your friend’s uncle’s business and your are worried about preserving that relationship, you could just straight up ask what type of commitment they are looking for. Alternately, you could tell them that you are only able to commit to 6 months to a year and will be transitioning to X field after that and see if they are still interested. Since you have the other job offer and seem to be leaning towards that one anyway, you aren’t really risking much. My experience with tutoring centers is that they don’t expect people to stay long and are generally ok with it so long as you aren’t leaving to tutor somewhere else.

    4. Colette*

      Why are these your only two options?

      What will a 1.5 hour commute cost you (transportation, but also picking up something because you’re too tired to cook, etc.)?

      Could you get another job to supplement job 2?

      1. Lucina*

        Only two options because they’re the only ones who’ve gotten back to me sadly after around 2 months of hunting. I’m getting pretty desperate since I have school bills to pay. I’ve tried ramping up my skills with Alison’s advise but it’s been difficult since my prior job experience has been in a very niche part of the medical field.

        Definitely would consider a Job 3 to supplement Job 2 but I’m on a limited timeline to choose between Job 1 and 2 for now.

        1. valentine*

          You seem to be boxing yourself in to pay off your loans, which seems like you’ll have to go for the money. If your parents’ public transit commutes would be shorter or better, can you borrow the car for the higher-paying job? Is there another car you could borrow?

          For the tutoring, consider the cost of that much face-time and any emotional labor. If you then add another job, consider you might lose more time than even the three-hour commute and what pay would be worth it.

    5. T3k*

      Yeah, here you have to see how much money you need to make a month, as well as how much you value your time (and if you like to drive). Also note that not only is that a long commute and will eat up more in gas costs, but will cause more wear and tear to your car, requiring more upkeep for that as well, so you’ll need to take that into consideration. Also, you don’t mention benefits here, so I’m assuming you’re still on your parents’ health plans, but if any of them come with those, should look into them.

    6. alphabet soup*

      Does the university at Job A offer tuition assistance to employees who take classes at the university? Do they have a post-bacc or second bachelor’s that’s relevant to your career interests?

      If so, I’d say it’d be worth it to try it out and try to get hired into the permanent position. Free or greatly reduced tuition is an awesome perk with university jobs. After I started my master’s program, I found out that my university gives free tuition for up to 2 classes every quarter for employees. I sure wish I’d known that and gotten a job there before I started because that would essentially be a free masters degree (versus the $60k of student debt I’m taking on otherwise).

      1. alphabet soup*

        And if the 3-month contract doesn’t lead to a permanent position, you could probably do the tutoring job next semester. In my experience, those kinds of programs always need someone.

  204. Gladiator*

    I interviewed for a promotion to a supervisor and didn’t get it. The reasons are, one of my coworkers doesn’t like me and I have to fix it even though it’s their issue on their part, not mine(which is odd because the other supervisor team hates and I mean hates their supervisor). I chat to another supervisor’s people who work in the second department and office as me – not that I talk too much, not that I distract them, but that I talk to them which had never come up in the three years I’ve worked there. And lastly, I called out sick with a fever and completely lost my voice. I came to work after spending one day off and still couldn’t talk – they knew it.
    My manager said that she didn’t understand these reasons and thought I am the go-to person and done so much for the company. Yet the manager decided to go with whoever the other supervisor wanted.
    How am I supposed to react to all these things?
    It’s not my responsibility to make my coworker love me. And how can I deal with the other supervisor knowing full well the only reason I didn’t get the job was because she obviously didn’t like me which confused me because she always said I would be great to work with.

    1. Colette*

      It’s not your job to make your coworker love you – but it would be a bad idea to make you the supervisor of someone you have a bad history with.

      The only value to figuring out why is to understand how you (not your coworker or the other supervisor) can improve. What lessons can you take away from this? Do you need to improve your relationship with your coworkers? Do you need to leave the company to get a promotion? What is in your control?

      1. Gladiator*

        Thank you for the response! They know I’ve tried to make the relationship more workable but the coworker has made enough scenes that everyone in the office knows the coworker doesn’t like me for no reason at all. I even came up with a plan to make it work out if I were to be the supervisor and discussed it in the interview. Even got feedback saying that it was a good plan though I can’t use it now because I don’t have authority to talk to her.
        The only thing I can do is look for another job. I talked for a good 45 minutes with my manager and asked a ton of questions on how to improve and basically the manager have me those reasons but also disagree with it and thinks I could have done the job.

    2. Natalie*

      You’re upthread panicking about an anonymous salary survey tracking your family and spending habits, but Gladiator is the highly dramatic basket case. Got it.

    3. Four lights*

      It could be that they felt whoever they promoted/hired would be a better fit, but felt they had to come up with a reason to give you. If it’s just excuses, that’s disappointing. And unfortunately not every brings up issues they have with a report when they should. At my yearly meeting my boss brought up some good points, but I thought, why didn’t you tell me this sooner?

      Colette has good advice.

      1. Gladiator*

        It kinda sounds like it’s just excuses. Super sad too because I love my job but my career will be hindered by it.

  205. Colette*

    Wow. It sounds like you could use some help learning to be tactful and appropriate with your coworkers. (Hint: refusing to be alone with a woman is not it.)

  206. Endgame Spoiler (jk)*

    Hi AAM community! Long story short, after two years of unemployment I finally scored a job! It’s a full time contract position with an amazing company, that has even better employee benefits. So I’m hopefull that I can eventually get switched to permanent. To be honest, the two year unemployment took a huge toll on my confidence and belief in my own abilities. I can’t help but hear a little voice in my head saying that I’m going to mess this opportunity up. My question to everyone is- how did you get rid of any new job jitters? How did you defeat imposter syndrome? This is my first real office job since graduating college, so any advice would be appreciated!

    1. Four lights*

      Lol on the username.

      First of all, remind yourself that it can take a year to be fully acclimated to a new job.
      Personally, I find affirmations helpful to counter the little voice: I always do the best I can. It’s ok if I don’t understand everything right away. I am accomplished at X, Y and Z. Everyone makes mistakes.

    2. Iris Eyes*

      “Do the best you can today.”

      Also thinking back to last week. last month, last year etc and seeing how much you have grown and how much more value you are adding has helped me :)

      Congratulations and good luck!

      1. Endgame Spoiler (jk)*

        Thanks! I’ve never thought of it before, but reflecting on your progress is a good way to look at things :)

    3. Not A Manager*

      I have always acted the part. I try to dress and behave like someone who knows that they belong, until I feel like I do belong.

      1. Endgame Spoiler (jk)*

        Thanks for the advice! I suppose the phrase “fake it until you make it” does have some truth to it!

    4. Alianora*

      I like to be very open and matter-of-fact about my mistakes. You can’t be an impostor if you’ve been completely honest with everyone. It helps get rid of the anxious “I’m faking being a competent adult and everyone will find me out!” feeling.

      If someone points out that I made a mistake, I say, “Oh, thank you for pointing that out. Here’s the updated document.” If I notice that I made a mistake, I go to whoever it affects and calmly say, “I think I got this wrong earlier, I’ve corrected it now and it will affect things in XYZ ways.”

      This accomplishes two things: I don’t have to feel like I’m hiding anything, and I’m projecting an air of competence to my coworkers. If I’m being assigned something that I really don’t think I can handle, I talk to my manager about my concerns and ask for help.

      1. Endgame Spoiler (jk)*

        Thank you! I love this method of taking accountability to combat imposter syndrome. I’ll definitely incorporate this once I start the job!

  208. Kiwiiiii*

    I have an odd situation that came up this week.

    I’m a program assistant for a state agency. I do 80% or so of my work for my manager and then another 20% for the director (her boss) because of a special skillset that I have. He has an analyst in his office rather than a PA. She’s really a superstar and is senior to me both at the agency and in hierarchy.

    There’s a meeting coming up next week involving results related to some of the work that I do for the director. He is unable to attend due to a previous commitment. He sent an email to me and the analyst explaining the situation and asking for one of us to attend on his behalf. The analyst volunteered immediately, which was fine as I’ve only been here about 6 months and my position is more or less the lowest at the agency — I don’t think I would feel comfortable going and presenting alone.

    He sent me an email a little later asking that I gather some data for the meeting, which I haven’t done before, though I’ve done similar things to help him prep. And then today he emailed both the analyst and myself a bunch of files including other metrics and data that we usually share at this sort of thing, as well as a bunch of talking points and answers to questions that might be asked. I’m a little alarmed at being sent this email and worried that he’s expecting me to attend despite the analyst volunteering to go. He’s kind enough but 1) we don’t interact directly very much, 2) I’m sort of intimidated by him and 3) he’s incredibly busy and taking up any more of his time than absolutely necessary just fills me with dread/guilt. How do I parse out the situation and figure out what he actually wants/what’s actually supposed to happen? I’m thinking maybe that I just email the analyst and see what she thinks — she works more closely with him and is actually in the same office.

    1. OtterB*

      It sounds to me like he just sent one email that combined files either or both of you might use, with the talking points and answers the analyst would need, rather than send two separate emails. I’d say just touch base with the analyst and ask how you can best support her in preparing for the meeting.

      You could also take it as an opportunity to learn what is involved in presenting at a meeting like that so you could develop into that role.

    2. Jeannie*

      Email the director and say that the analyst is going to be attending the meeting, but as he’s sent all this information to you as well, does he want you to attend the meeting too.
      It could be that he’s just hitting “reply all” without thinking, but he could also be thinking it would be good experience for you and he’d like you to know how these meetings work. He could also want you to increase your understanding of the material he has sent.

    3. Kiwiiiii*

      Update:

      My manager came back from a meeting with him about a half hour after I posted this. In the meeting, he’d mentioned that he was waiting on a response from me about whether or not I could attend. Apparently he’s looking for both myself and the analyst to attend. After my conversation with my manager, I dashed a quick acceptance email off to the director and then sent one to the analyst asking for some prep time with her. I’m a bit nervous that I’ll be more responsible for the knowledge-base during the presentation, but it should be fine!

  209. Peggy Sue*

    Restaurant workers: is it normal for restaurants to ghost you AFTER they hire you? It’s happened to me twice now. I’ll have the interview, start working, everything seems to be going fine, positive feedback, no major mistakes, the WHAM! Taken off the schedule, no notice, no explanation, won’t even return my phone calls. I’m paid for my time and live in an at-will state, so it’s not illegal. I still just don’t get what happened. If I was bad at my job, they could just tell me I suck and properly fire me. But I’m apparently not worth the trouble? How am I supposed to gain experience if I always get booted in favor of someone who has more experience?

    1. Bunny Girl*

      I’ve had this happen before and so has my mother. It’s really aggravating. Unfortunately, I don’t have any advice for it, but I know it has happened.

    2. Catsaber*

      I had this happen to me when I was 17 and working at a coffee shop. I was just left off the schedule, and I kept calling in and trying to get an explanation, but the manager was avoiding me. Finally I got her on the phone and she told me I had been fired, and didn’t I realize that? I responded that no, I didn’t – it was my first restaurant job, but not my first job, and typically your manager tells you when you’re fired. She acted really indignant like this type of ghosting-firing was just the norm, and I should have realized it.

    3. Alianora*

      Sadly, firing by reduced hours is really common in fast food restaurants, at least. It didn’t happen to me but I’ve seen it happen to coworkers. I can’t speak to sit-down restaurants but I wouldn’t be surprised if it was similar.

      1. Enough*

        Yeah. Had a manager who cut my hours to 4 a week. It was already a part time job. He was trying to get me to quit instead of just firing me. No feed back but would knock over the fries in they were “too full”. Was a jerk and really liked the girl who shortened her company supplied uniform skirt.

  210. Bunny Girl*

    What are other people’s opinions of kombucha at work? Although I don’t think it’s an alcoholic beverage (as in you don’t need an ID to buy it) it does have trace amounts of alcohol in it. I do drink it quite often, and every once in a while I’ll bring a bottle to work to sip on, but I’ve always wondered about it.

    1. MsM*

      Mouthwash has trace amounts of alcohol, too. I don’t think you can reasonably be sent home for having minty fresh breath.

        1. Amber Rose*

          Of course they are. That’s why most newer mouthwashes don’t have alcohol in them, and the ones that do are locked up. At least, around here. We had a problem for a while with people chugging the stuff.

          1. Bunny Girl*

            Holy crap that’s insane. Although I can’t say anything. I just moved from a state that you couldn’t buy a certain kind of cold medicine because the tweakers wouldn’t stop making it into meth.

              1. valentine*

                Of course they are.
                Really thought this was sarcasm and now I wish it were.

                Bunny Girl, don’t drink any alcohol-containing beverages at work.

        2. LCL*

          We had someone who was stashing bottles of mixed drink at remote sites and when someone called him on it said it was mouthwash. That was a long time ago; all involved are retired or passed on.

    2. Seeking Second Childhood*

      IF you’re buying it commercially it says “no alcohol” and my very strict state believes it is safe to sell at grocery stores. So does the ATF. If you’re making it yourself, you have less control over wild yeast and I wouldn’t trust it at work.
      As a home brewer I’ve heard horror stories of people ending up in the infirmary with dysentery because they were sipping homemade cider without letting it ferment fully. I don’t make kombucha!

      1. Bunny Girl*

        Hello fellow home brewer! I made my own wine at home. I’ve made kombucha a few times but I had problems with the carbonation causing explosions so I’ve stopped. :)

        That’s what I figured. I was just curious if anyone had run across an issue.

      2. Seven hobbits are highly effective, people*

        If you’re buying in commercially in my state, some of it has alcohol and some does not. If it has alcohol it’ll be labelled as “hard kombucha” and carry the same kinds of labeling that other alcohol products have instead of the kind of labeling that other food products have.

        (I don’t buy either kind, but I have noticed alcoholic kombucha showing up as an option when I’ve been looking for beer lately.)

  211. Going oh do anonymous 2019*

    It’s so late in the day that I fear no one will see this. I have a co-worker who is in charge of… let’s call it the SOP for teapot design. I had to finish a round of conflicting change requests on 7 teapots being released for three managers. I asked CW (co-worker) for advice explaining to one manager who’s never released a shared teapot design that brand-specific changes are awkward— and CW responded telling me why his changes were easy. AND SHE CC:D OUR BOSS. I told her never mind, that I’d just asked about the back&forth… and 10 minutes later she sent me back HIS MARKUPS with changes done in PDF. not in the teapot files shared by all. I replied that I didn’t know what she had done or why, and I’ve pretty much decided I won’t be asking her for advice ever again. I find myself avoiding her in a way I’ve never done with anyone before. It’s not the silent treatment… It’s just if I don’t need to work with her, I don’t want to interact with her. I feel petty, but there was a nasty streak in the emails that no one needs. And it’s not the first time, and I’m not the only person she’s bit the head off. Here’s hoping my manager never decides to get a new job because I don’t want to be a manager — and this is the only other person around who might be qualified. Just… wow.

    1. Four lights*

      Yikes, that was unkind of her. It sounds like a good idea to be careful about what advice to ask her. Just try your best to be professional with her.

  212. Seeking Second Childhood*

    Um…you DID notice that the copay thing was specifically called “a dumb thing at work” and the poster wasn’t pronoting it?

  213. ManagingExpectations*

    How should my performance be rated when I was missing for half the time? For medical reasons, I was out almost half the year. So should my performance be rated based on what I accomplished while present, or over the full period, which makes me look lackluster or below-par?

    When the higher-ups see that Sansa walked on water 15 times and I only did it 10 times, that makes me look like I don’t deserve the same ranking.

    1. Alianora*

      Hmm. It definitely doesn’t make sense to rate you based on the time that you were out on medical leave. If you did well while you were in the office, you should get a good performance review.

      However, if your coworker genuinely did accomplish a lot, I can see why management would want to acknowledge her contributions.

    2. Banana*

      Something I struggle with myself is reminding myself that praise of someone else doesn’t mean that I wasn’t as good.

      You should be rated on the work that you did while you were in the office, not penalized for not being in the office.

      BUT

      Your coworkers, with your absence, may deserve extra recognition this year for picking up extra work or learning a new skill quickly due to your absence, or some other extra above and beyond that they did as a result of your absence. If your office has competitive rankings like mine does, that may mean that you get a lower ranking as a result, and I don’t think that is necessarily unfair, although I can understand why it might feel so.

  214. VM*

    At your workplace, is it normal to count bathroom time against your allotted break time or is it just considered part of the workday?
    I mean average length bathroom trips btw, 5 minutes or so.

    1. Zona the Great*

      My gawd the fact that we have to ask these questions is deplorable. It’s part of your work day and so should natural breaks people take. But even in many unreasonable workplaces, bathroom breaks are part of the workday.

      We’ve even had questions about those who take 20 minutes in the bathroom. For the most part, Alison and the commentariat believe that isn’t worth pursuing and would do worse to morale than it would to any bottom line or anything.

    2. Iris Eyes*

      Not even when I was working retail/customer facing jobs. I think that the breaks are mandated by law to be taken as a whole not in bits and pieces.

      I could see them saying that you need to prioritize using the facilities while on your break. Like don’t take a bathroom break and then within the next 30 minutes go on your actual break.

      Overall sounds like there was one problem employee and instead of dealing it with them they put in place a stupid (and perhaps illegal) policy.

    3. WellRed*

      This is not normal at any workplace, ever. What other things do they do that are not cool? Cause, I find it hard to believe this is the only issue.

    4. Parenthetically*

      This is from workplacefairness dot org:

      Under the FLSA, rest periods of short duration (for example, five to twenty minutes) are considered to make employees’ work more efficient, and are customarily paid for as working time. They must be counted as hours worked, and cannot be offset against other time for which workers must be paid, such as waiting time or on-call time.

      If you extend your break beyond the time authorized by your employer, your employer may deduct the excess time from your hours worked, as long as

      the employer has expressly and unambiguously communicated to the employee that the authorized break may only last for a specific length of time,

      that any extension of the break is contrary to the employer’s rules, and

      that any extension of the break will be punished.

      Your employer may also deduct time from your hours worked if the extra break was used for the purpose of expressing breast milk. Though employers are required to offer breaks to nursing mothers for this purpose, they do not need to be paid breaks.

      For employees not covered by the FLSA, meal and break provisions may be covered under state law, if the employee lives in one of the few states with laws requiring meal and break periods.

      Restroom breaks less than ~20 minutes should be paid.

    5. T3k*

      I haven’t had to do emergency ones yet, but where I am (in customer service) we have to set to a particular break type and I’m sure somewhere it’s closely monitored how many you do it (we do get 2 separate paid 15 min. breaks though on top of unpaid lunch time, so generally it’s ok).

    6. VM*

      Thank you all. My friend brought it up as something she does herself and wasn’t sure if it was typical. Her workplace has never said anything, previous employers have never put conditions on using the bathroom, possibly just misguided work ethic on her part. I agree, I use the restroom when I need it and take my regular breaks in addition to that.

  216. Kendra*

    My current company is about an hour commute on public transit, but I love that there’s a gym in the building, and I like having new people to talk to everyday. I’m considering a work-from-home job in the future, as I’ll get back 2 extra hours back, but I’m wondering if it’s worth losing the gym and social interactions! Has anyone here made the transition?

    1. ManagingExpectations*

      No, I telecommute occasionally but not full time. Is the work-from-home job one where all the other workers are remote as well? It can be frustrating if everyone else is on-site, and you’re the only remote one.
      If everyone is remote, then at least you won’t be the outlier. You can find a gym near home and have lunch with your neighbors and friends.

    2. T3k*

      I’d love if my company had a gym. That said, I work from home 100% unless tech issues (not by choice, they just don’t have enough space for all of us) and I’m ok with that. The only thing I miss is going for walks during my breaks/lunch at work, as I can’t really do that from home, and I talk with my team via chats (it’s how we all primarily communicate, even in the office). But I’m also not big on social interactions either (I spend my free time at home, working on personal projects or playing around).

  217. Killer Queen*

    I graduated a year ago with a degree in HR Management and have been working at my current job (HR Manager) for almost a year. Due to circumstances that don’t have anything to do with the role as well as the role itself, I am feeling a little disenchanted. I love the company and they have treated me well, which just makes all of this harder. However, I do not want to do this for the rest of my life. I’m not even sure I can continue for another year. I feel like I don’t have much of a purpose in my life right now, which makes it hard to stay motivated. I’m feeling a bit of a “quarter-life crisis” right now and have a few different paths I am considering from getting an MBA to starting a podcast.

    I know that no one can make the decision for me, so I guess what I’m asking is advice for how to decide what to do. I can’t actually quit my job right now without another lined up because I am the sole provider until my husband graduates (in December). I don’t even think I would want to quit yet until I have at LEAST been here a year (although I know I should stay longer).

    Anyone have any thought processes that could help me decide? Or any ideas of how to add purpose to my life when I already feel like I have no time in my day to get things done after I get home from work?

    1. ManagingExpectations*

      Killer Queen, I’m still seeking my purpose in life and I’m just a few years from retirement. I think it’s a lifelong goal, to reassess where we are and where we want to be.
      What you’re doing right now, even though it may not be fulfilling, is sustaining both you and your husband. Track the parts of your job that you like and don’t like, and that may lead you to a better idea of what you may want to do once you’re not the only income in the family.
      Work is a large part of our lives, so it’s understandable you want to do something more fulfilling and motivating. What would your podcast be about? I suspect that might be where your interests lie.

    2. Kendra*

      Do something you love everyday. It doesn’t have to be your job. It could be writing or swimming or knitting or learning a language or anything. Make that promise to yourself. When you’re in that vibe, it’ll be easier to find other things you’re also passionate about.

  218. SuG*

    Your opinions please!
    TL;DR – went through series of interviews for an IT position, was offered a job and settled on salary and start date. Was waiting on the offer letter and on boarding documents. Found out I failed the pre-employment assessment I took a couple months ago. Offer is halted until further notice pending the recruiter’s conversation with the manager who oversees the assessment to get more info about other options.

    More Background –
    So a recruiter from a major company in the city contacted me about a job opening that aligns to my background. I agreed and went through the entire process and was offered a job without actually officially applying on their site until they needed my name in the system to start the on boarding process and the offer letter. This was after they verbally offered me a job, emailed me details about the offer and benefits, salary and start date negotiation. 2 days went by and the recruiter wanted to talk to me about the online pre-employment assessment (no technical questions, just personality-based questions) that I took when I applied. I did not take any assessment when I applied for this specific job but remembered I took one 2-3 months ago when I applied for a different position, but did not get an interview. Turns out the problem was the assessment came out as a fail and typically I should not have gotten this far in the process, let alone offered a job. The recruiter tried to ask if I remembered any questions or any reason why I think it came out as a fail. I honestly couldn’t tell her anything because it was so long ago and that assessment was about 80 questions long. She told me she’ll have to touch base with the manager who oversees the assessment and what the process is with this type of situation. So as of right now, my job offer is at the risk of being rescinded :/

    Any thoughts on how likely they’ll stand by their decision to hire me? Any hiring manager who can shade me some lights about how they will handle this type of situation? I’m mentally preparing myself for the worst and preparing myself to job hunt again, but I want to see other people’s perspective on this issue.

    1. The New Wanderer*

      I’m sorry, I have no specific advice for you but I have to say this is exactly why those kinds of generic assessments are useless. They obviously wanted you as an employee when you went through the “normal” process that didn’t include this personality assessment, which should tell them that using the assessment to screen people out automatically is costing them some excellent candidates.

      I can’t believe they would say “well our direct conversations and normal interview process says SuG is awesome and would be a great employee here, but too bad SuG didn’t pass this arbitrary and unrelated test.” But they might really be that short-sighted.

  219. Here we go again...*

    My supervisor just notified our workgroup that she’ll be away next week. *AFTER* COB. She always does this and it really ticks me off.

    THEN she emails me about something she needs an answer to ASAP. I answered, but I’m not happy about it.

    It’s so true that people don’t quit their jobs, they quit their bosses. I’m leaving for the day and I’ll be spending my weekend on job applications. “Dear can’t-be-worse-than-here. I’m writing to apply for the position of Get-me-out-of-here…”

  220. Leslie Knope*

    Have any females here tried using a gender-neutral name, or just their first and middle initial, when applying to jobs? I wonder how much gender discrimination goes into hiring and if using initials would get me more interviews.

    2. Leslie Knope*

      Oh, also, there’s someone with the same first and last name as me who’s a similar age, but it’s not a common name. I worry that people think that she’s me (why wouldn’t they???) and think I’m lying about things on my resume.

      1. Slimer*

        Can you start using a middle initial professionally for differentiation? “Leslie J. Knope, Keynote Speaker”

  221. Confused*

    Last month I had an onsite interview with two managers. Last week I came back for a second interview with the same two managers. After customary greetings, I said, “It’s good to see you both again.” Manager A said, “Yes it’s good to finally meet in person.” I guess my confusion showed on my face since he continued with, “I had to call-in last time since I was sick.” I responded by saying, “No, you were here in person to interview me.” Then Manager B stepped and said, “No, Manager A was out sick so it was just me that day.” I very clearly remember meeting them *both in person* for the first interview, and was worried they confused me with another candidate, so I (respectfully but firmly) insisted again that they were both there in person. At this point they both sheepishly laughed, apologized, and blamed Tylenol for any confusion. Should I have let it go and not made a big deal of it? And is it a terrible sign if they don’t remember the first interview and seem to mistake me for someone else? It was a very puzzling interaction and I don’t know what to make of it.

    Appreciate any insights. Thank you!!

    1. BRR*

      I think it’s a bit easier to keep things straight on the interviewee side than the interview side. It wouldn’t be the hill I died on. I would have feigned some ignorance and said Something like “oh I’m pretty sure we met in person. But I’m excited to talk about the teapot analyst role today.”

    2. Alianora*

      I wouldn’t have pushed as hard as you did, I think that probably made it a little awkward. Glossing over it like BRR suggests is probably the safer route.

      I don’t think it’s a terrible sign if Manager B didn’t recognize your face — not great, but it doesn’t necessarily mean they don’t remember your first interview. I’m awful with faces but I do remember conversations I have with people.

  222. Flurpity Flurp*

    Job app question:
    A month ago I applied for a job that was definitely a stretch. But I’m really interested in the company and I figured it was worth a shot. I haven’t heard anything from them except for the email confirming receipt of my application. I just saw that they posted another position this week and it’s much more in line with my skill set. I believe I have a better chance at this role than the previous one. It’s a small enough company that I think they may notice I’ve applied for both positions. Should I say something in my cover letter? Or should I just write it as if this is the only position I’m applying for?

  223. NAME HELP*

    I’m changing my name to something not at all like my current name, but it takes six months in my state to legally change it. How can I apply to jobs with my new name without getting in trouble?

    1. WellRed*

      Hmm. Do you really need to apply using your new name? I’d suggest approaching it like if you were expecting an academic degree in the near future, maybe??? John Smith (Jasper Snuggleworth as of Aug. 1). That might be a distraction however.

      1. valentine*

        One reason for legal name change is you’ve used the name exclusively for x time, so you can go ahead and use the new name.

    2. Alianora*

      Late here, but on your resume you can use whatever name you want, doesn’t have to be your legal name. I think Alison has written about this topic regarding trans people, but it seems to me like that would apply for anyone, whether you’re getting married or you just have a strong preference to go by a different name.

      When you get to the reference checking stage, you can say, “My references knew me when I went by OldName,” or if they need your legal name for a background check you can say “My legal name is OldName.” Name changes are pretty common for a multitude of reasons. Most HR people are used to dealing with them.

  224. Cofounder*

    I confounded a tech company that went under. Is it a red flag to recruiters to say “co-founder” on my resume? Would it be better to stick with just “director of xyz”?

  225. Boberto*

    Thoughts on sending a cover letter…. during the interview?

    Basically, started the job search a month ago and one of the earliest postings I responded to didn’t explicitly state that they wanted a cover letter. The process was done on the company’s job application portal so I filled in my information, put in my resume, and submitted the application. After reading the advice on this website, I realized I committed a big faux pas by not sending in a cover letter! I only realized after the application was submitted for >2 weeks and I didn’t even think I had a chance of getting an interview anyway. So I forgot about the job application and moved onto other job listings and always made sure to send tailored resumes and cover letters.

    But now I just got an email asking when I’d like to interview for this position. I feel very embarrassed that I didn’t send a cover letter and my resume wasn’t that polished either… Should I say during the interview “oh I’m so sorry about the cover letter, but here’s one that I think explains my strengths?” and hand it to the interviewer? Or should I go to the interview and try my best without mentioning the lack of cover letter? Getting this position would be a great opportunity but I’m afraid I already am at a disadvantage.

    It’s a weird question but I have very little professional experience (I grew up in a blue-collar home and no one in my family has ever given me work/job-related advice so websites like this have been a godsend) so I thought might as well ask…

    I just think it’s weird how I was even chosen, though this is an entry admin position.

    1. atexit8*

      I rarely send cover letters.
      I am a degreed electrical engineer. So definitely white-collar.

      Why are you embarrassed for not sending in a cover letter?
      And why would you even mention it?

      Just go in and do your best.

    2. ArtK*

      They invited you to an interview without a cover letter. It’s clearly not an issue for them so just forget about it. Don’t worry about the resume, either — clearly it did the job. Just do your best preparation for the interview and move forward.

    4. The New Wanderer*

      If the application didn’t explicitly ask for a cover letter, you can consider it optional. It’s good practice to submit one, but (like thank you/follow up emails) not a hard and fast requirement *unless* specified. And since you got the interview, your resume was strong enough to get you in the door. Everything you would have put in a cover letter about your strengths and accomplishments and interest in the position, that’s what you can talk about in the interview. Good luck!

  226. Argye*

    For those who have left academia, how did you do it and where did you go?

    Background: I have a Ph.D. in a part of biology. I worked in a private University/museum for 15 years, and was laid off in 2010, despite a strong publication and funding record. I then moved to DC and worked in the Federal Govt for 3 years. I then moved to the midwest and have been working as a year-to-year Visiting Assistant Professor for the past 5 years. I just found out that my position is going away this fall. I’ll be teaching over the summer, but I don’t know what will happen next. My Chair was very apologetic, and said he advocated for me, but the Dean didn’t want to add another salary line. I can pick up adjuncting hours, but that will pay less and has no benefits.

    I feel like I’m moving backwards in my career. I haven’t published anything in several years, because I’ve been so busy teaching (and, frankly, the depression and anxiety have been brutal). I just bought a house here, and really don’t want to move again. I keep applying for new Assistant Professor positions, but they want someone with more recent publications, and frankly, someone younger – not a 52 year old woman, even WITH 40 papers to her name.

    My sister is a corporate trainer, and suggested that. I did a quick look on Indeed, but saw nothing of remote interest. Has anyone made a similar transition? How did you do it?

    1. Slimer*

      You might look at engineering companies in your area/city. You’ll find the largest ones in the annual lists posted by ENR Midwest magazine. If your specialty is in plant/animal biology, you’d be a great addition to an environmental services team. If it’s more microbiology, there might be a good role for you in water treatment system design. Your grant experience will be valuable, as these companies often work with their clients to find project funding.

      It’s not unusual to find PhDs at these firms, and they’re used to having people transition in from academia/government/private companies at different career stages, so don’t let that hold you back from exploring the field.

  227. Calli*

    Last week, I was very, very sick with food poisoning and all its unpleasantness, and needed to call into work sick. I called five hours in advance and spent the next five hours fielding phone calls about how no one could possibly cover my shift between throwing up. In the end, I was afraid I’d get fired for not showing up, and went in anyway. The only reason I ended up giving in was because it’s a position at odd hours where there must be coverage, but I can go weeks without actually seeing anyone. Luckily, I didn’t have to interact with anyone, but I spent most of my 8 hour shift in misery.

    I am still so, so angry about this. I have worked there over a year at this point, never once called in sick, frequently covered for others. That they had zero backup plan or willingness on anyone’s part – especially the supervisors and managers! – to cover this shift when there must be someone there seems like a glaring problem to me. What if I 100% couldn’t come in at all? What would they have done? (Aside from blame me?) I’m so angry because I know I shouldn’t have gone, it wasn’t safe for me to drive there.

    I really want to find some way to bring this up with the higher up management, but I don’t know how on earth to word it, or to keep myself from sounding as furious as I feel. I’ve been management in the past, and I feel like that it is simply part of being management, that sometimes when no one else can cover a vital shift, you have to just deal with it, not shrug and say you won’t.

    1. atexit8*

      I think you are more furious at yourself for giving in then at them.
      I would be.
      I would have called in sick. Then stopped answering the phone.
      That’s me.

      What you have taught them is that you don’t really mean it when you say you are sick.
      Is that what you really wanted them to believe?
      .

      1. WellRed*

        +1. Also, I seriously doubt a company without a backup is going to go straight to firing because then who would do the work? Please rehearse what you want to say, using the excellent points you made above.

        1. valentine*

          In lieu of a new job, which I’m not sure is needed here, the best options are to become comfortable going no-contact when off or to accept working sick. They can always say they had no idea you were really too sick to work because you took calls for five hours and went to work, so they assumed you felt better or whatever nonsense. It seems like you’d be reporting yourself for flimsy boundaries. If you had gone no-contact or if you need verbal permission to be out sick and so you took a single call for that and they punished you, that would be something to report.

    2. pjm*

      You should definitely bring it up to management. And word it EXACTLY as you have written in this letter. It is perfect. I don’t think you should have gone into work. And I don’t think you should have taken phone calls for 5 hours, shut your phone off next time.

    3. Batgirl*

      “I was pressured to come in while I was delirious and feverish. I wasn’t thinking clearly and the end result was that I ended up driving in in very unsafe conditions. Pointlessly because I certainly wasn’t well enough to provide meaningful coverage.

      From this point onwards I’ll only be notifying you of sickness by text or email and unable to speak on the phone until I feel reassured that you take employee safety seriously. It’s really unacceptable that there was no back up plan and changing this is one of the ways you could reassure me. I will continue to provide you with as much help as I can when you need coverage for others, as I always have done in the past, as my part in ensuring this basic safety measure.

      1. valentine*

        I was delirious and feverish. […] I ended up driving in in very unsafe conditions.
        Don’t admit, especially in writing, to driving impaired.

  228. Kendra*

    Anyone else find task-based resumes work better than accomplishment-based ones? I find people are more impressed when I say I used Excel, rather than if I say I accomplished something by using it.

    1. elemenohpi*

      I’ve gotten good results lately by including a skills section in my resume. It’s below my job/accomplishments history, as a table that lists skills by area (e.g. creative: Adobe CS, AP Style; email marketing: programs I’ve used, experience with A/B testing; technical: HTML, Excel). But I’ve also seen people do this as a sidebar and I think that looks nice, visually.

  229. Gaia*

    I’m nervous/excited?

    Two weeks ago I gave notice at my job for a lot of reasons. There is this really nasty toxic situation among leadership that creates drama for the rest of us and it is exhausting. I could tolerate that (I just do what I can to ignore it and focus on my work) but I’m also bored by the work and I find myself in a situation where I can (and want to) move to another town. Working remotely isn’t possible so I decided I needed to just step away and make the move.

    It was scary but it seems to have been a good decision. In two weeks I’ve applied to a few dozen roles, interviewed at 4 already and am now a final candidate for 2 (I withdrew from the 3rd and we’re in early stages on the 4th).

    Of the two that I’m going into final interviews with next week, both are equally exciting. But one is full time remote and the other is based in the city I am moving to. I’d prefer the remote role but I’d like to gauge the willingness of the on-site role to allow remote work to allow me to move more easily in the future.

    Any advise on how to ask about this, especially considering they know I’m relocating to their city?

  230. ConfusedKiwi*

    I’m job searching after a 4 year career break (time out for young kids) and I’m struggling with interviews.

    I’ve done heaps of prep, followed Alison’s advice etc… But the behavioural questions are so specific that the examples I have practiced / considered in advance don’t fit, and the gap in work makes it really hard to recall other examples. I know the answers don’t have to perfectly align, but I struggle to find examples at all because it’s a bit of a distant memory.

    In the gap I started and sold a small ecommerce business, and have done some entry-level admin work, so I have some recent experience but neither of these roles are close to what I’m interviewing for so there’s some substance I can’t fill in from them.

    Does anyone have any tips for recall, or otherwise how to demonstrate experience I have when I can’t remember it? Feeling like I’m thwarting myself here!

    1. Not So NewReader*

      I believe the alternative option that I have seen people suggest goes something like this:
      “Well, I have not had a situation that parallels your example here, so the best I can do is tell you how I would begin to approach the problem….”
      I know a couple times I have said, “Well first I would be aware of what THIS company wants me to do to handle the situation. However, what I have done in the past is……”
      I remember one time I drew a blank on a question. We had been talking at length and the conversation was fast paced and kind of intense. I said, “I am drawing a blank for a similar situation. However, using the example you have here, I would [then I explained what I would do].”

      1. ConfusedKiwi*

        Thanks. :-) I did try something like this at one of my interviews (“I can’t think of an example but I can tell you how I would handle that situation…”) but they rephrased the question after I gave the hypothetical which made me think maybe that’s not a good option.

        Unfortunately I’m struggling with at least a couple of questions in each interview though, so I really think it’s my memory and/or thinking on my feet that’s the problem. Perhaps I do just need to spend many more hours in prep and revision.

        1. Not So NewReader*

          I think it’s okay if they rephrase. Hey if you can’t answer then you can’t answer. It’s not possible that you are the very first person who could not answer one of their questions. Just answer the rephrased question as closely as possible, that is all you can do.

  231. Christina*

    I started a new job this week after 6. 5 months of (mostly) unemployment and it’s been rough adjustment to say the least.

    I knew it would be hard, but oof. It’s been made harder by the following:
    – my boss unexpectedly went on (adoption) maternity leave the day before I started.
    – the org’s major annual fundraiser gala is the Saturday of my first week, so my first week is 6 days long.
    – my longest commute over the past 10 years has been 20 minutes door-to-door (and my last job was working from home). My new commute is an hour each way.

    I got home tonight and had a panic attack (I wondered why I was freezing all day, and it finally dawned on me when I started crying and hyperventilating tonight). My grandboss (my new boss by default for the moment) made a point to say how much she appreciated me just jumping in and my “can-do” attitude, and I have actually done a lot in my first week, given my limited knowledge (and my grandboss has only been there 7 months, so she can’t answer many of my questions either).

    Ironically, this was also the least nervous I’ve ever felt before starting a new job. I’m still not nervous, just completely overwhelmed. I hope it gets better soon.

    1. Not So NewReader*

      One day at a time. It sounds like they really like you. Break things into steps and then go through it one step at a time. Use your drive time to review what you learned yesterday and reinforce it by making yourself recall it. Also use your drive time to figure out what you will work on learning today.

      I am betting you will do well at this job. Just be gentle with yourself.

    2. 653-CXK*

      I was unemployed for ten months, and the hardest part for me is shedding the old habits after 21 years at ExJob and relearning new concepts at NewJob.

      For example: I was writing an email and I’m so used to writing “Hi X!” at ExJob that it’s automatic. My boss pointed out that my emails should be more professional. Where at ExJob we were so familiar with each other that “Hi X!” was completely normal, it’s not so normal with outside vendors, because it sounds a little immature.

      Another example: My commute to ExJob by public transportation used to be 1-1/2 hours – several connections and lots of waiting time. My commute to NewJob is 45 minutes tops, but the tradeoff is that I only have ten-fifteen minutes of waiting time between the two buses I take when I go to work (coming home I can be a little more flexible). That short window of waiting time is a blessing and a curse; I don’t have to wait as long, but if I go outside that waiting time I risk missing a bus and getting in late.

      So far otherwise, I’m getting used to NewJob. It’s a lot smaller and compact, and I do fairly well. I’m still on a probationary period (ends in September) but there will be new things to learn along the way.

  232. Trixie*

    In yesterday’s post, a OP mentioned Administrative Professionals Day. Rather than let the rather dated day fall by wayside, our Big Boss wanted to present something to admin staff. Thankfully, my boss and I discussed the idea of gifting all staff (not singling out admins) with a half-day of paid time off. In any context, I am fan of not forcing employees to spend time together. I told my boss such a gesture would be immensely appreciated by most staff, especially if they could plan ahead for an early weekend start or extend their weekend. If successful, perhaps we can use same idea over holidays!

  233. Green Monster*

    How do all of you deal with work-related jealousy?

    As context: I’ve been trying to make the shift from freelance to full-time with a particular company for a while now. They’re a small company, mostly work with freelancers/contractors, and I really like all the people involved. I’ve asked about full-time work intermittently and the answer has historically been “we wish we could, but we can’t afford to hire full-time for that position right now,” which tracks with what they’ve told other freelancers. I’ve talked to the owner a lot, and the consistent line from him has been that he really likes what I do, he thinks I’m valuable to the company and he would hire me full-time in a heartbeat if it was in their current budget but right now it isn’t. That’s fair. We’ve talked possibilities for part-time recently (initiated by him, I should mention), but nothing’s come of it yet.

    And then yesterday I found out that another freelancer, who I introduced to him (because they’re also good at what they do and were looking for more projects) has just been hired full-time for the very position I was trying for. The position that the owner has repeatedly told me (again, initiated by him) “I wish I could hire you for this, but it’s not in our budget.”

    There’s a part of me angry at him because he’s told me for so long (as recently as two weeks ago!) that another full-timer isn’t in their budget, and yet he’s hired someone for it anyway. And there’s also a part of me angry at the other freelancer, because 1) I introduced them to this company and 2) they knew (I told them, more fool me) that I was actively trying to get hired full-time for the specific position they now hold. I’m trying really hard not to be sour about this but I feel like something I really wanted and really went after has been stolen from me and it’s a miserable feeling I’d love some advice on shaking off since I’m not having any luck so far.

    1. chi chan*

      Give yourself time to feel jealous. Don’t act on it but journal, vent and otherwise treat yourself to something nice. Then be gracious to the people. Does the other person have certifications or experience you don’t? Ask yourself if you are interested in some training. And look for other opportunities outside this company. It is a hard thing to deal with.

    2. WellRed*

      I’m sorry this happened. That sucks and of course it feels infair. It wasn’t stolen from you, though. It was never yours in the first place. Was there an actual position available or did the budget to create a position materialize specifically to hire this other person? In which case, it was not going to happen for you. The owner may love your work, but the rest of it is likely the work equivalent of “I’ll call you,” after a meh first date.

      1. Green Monster*

        There was an actual position available, which is why the owner reached out to me: the conversation he initiated involved the two of us nailing down the details of what the part-time position would entail. In the last few days and unknown to me, the part-time position expanded to a full-time one and he made an offer to the other freelancer. I even responded to an email of his a few hours before finding out it wasn’t on the table anymore. My initial comment was really unclear about that, I realize. I was pretty upset when I wrote it and honestly…still am.

          1. valentine*

            If the owner’s not the one who told you about the hire, maybe he does want you part-time? He also sounds like someone full of hot air who doesn’t walk the talk. He says just enough to keep you onside and grateful. There’s no good reason he couldn’t have made you a full-timer years ago. The ex-freelancer isn’t to blame. If the roles were reversed, wouldn’t you take the job? Saying no because he had dibs would be weird, overstepping, and hopefully futile.

    3. Bulbasaur*

      This happened to me once, minus the extra misbehavior on the part of the employer that you describe later (which I’m sure doesn’t help).

      A colleague of mine was laid off, so I gave him the details of a recruiter I’d been working with. I had an application in at the time for a job that I found really interesting, and it seemed like I was the front runner. He ended up applying for the same job and they chose to hire him over me.

      I definitely had mixed feelings for a while about having introduced him. In the end I just chose to ride it out until they went away, since I felt like I didn’t really have a basis for complaint. He needed the job more than I did, since I still had a job and he didn’t, and he had just bought a house into the bargain. Also the decision criteria they gave were valid – he was a better fit for the job description on paper, and also came cheaper than I did (I had a range of other skills he didn’t that would likely have been helpful, but weren’t formally required).

      It helped when I found out that my colleague felt really uncomfortable about it as well – I think he knew I would have got the job if he hadn’t been in the picture. In the end though, companies can hire who they like and there isn’t really such a thing as a prior claim, even if it feels that way emotionally. And I would never have argued that he should turn it down for my sake.

  234. Curious Cat*

    I’m curious. I heard about a department at a local company that has had 3 employees leave in the past 6 months. Their current turnover rate is about 40%.(Please note: 2 out of 3 of these employees left for internal positions.) I understand that people come and go and with the recent improvement in the economy, people are leaving for new opportunities. How does senior management deal with such turnover? Who gets blamed and what plans may be put in place in order to ensure that employees are retained?

    Also note: This department requires a unique set of skills that is hard to find locally. It’s going to take quite a while to fill these positions.

    1. Luisa*

      My workplace has also had growing turnover in the past three years, but primarily due to employees leaving for other opportunities, not people moving up internally. I’ve heard coworkers say that we “surely must be” catching the attention of higher-ups (management’s managers) because of the increasing turnover rate, and rumors that our turnover is “being monitored” by higher levels of leadership, but if that’s true, or if any actions have been taken to address it, they’re certainly not apparent to me. My direct management tends to blame the departing employees, claiming that they are unwilling to meet the demands of the job. A professional acquaintance who knows my boss told me that Boss told her one of our employees left because he was “crazy,” and recently a manager asked a departing employee if their departure could be attributed to a mental breakdown.

      I can’t say if this lack of introspection is typical. My last employer also had higher-than-desirable turnover, but they also pay on the low end for our area, so I think employee departures were consistently attributed to salaries (even though plenty, at least during my tenure, were due to a combination of salary concerns and other factors).

    2. Psyche*

      The best way to ensure good employees are retained is to make sure that they are happy. How is the workload and work environment? How is the pay and benefits? Are employees able to get raises and promotions on a reasonable schedule? The reason is going to vary by company. However, I would say that in general if the pay is high enough employees will put up with a lot.

  235. Exhausted Trope*

    I’m resigning from the volunteer position I’ve held since last summer. I’d like to give a gift to my three colleagues to show my appreciation for the extensive training they’ve provided and their general niceness.
    1) Should I give anything at all?
    2) If so, what?
    The office is already overflowing with snacks and food. I can’t take everyone to lunch since our schedules are so different and there’s no restaurants near enough.

  236. Mo*

    I just accepted a job in a different department, which ironically will be like 10 feet from my curry desk. I knew going in that I would have to wait for my replacement to start and be trained before I can start training in my new role. They’ve been trying to hire for a different position for many months with no offers or people have recinded after getting offers. My work has now decided that this position may or may not replace my position or go to a brand new position so I may be two new hires out. :(
    Has anyone given up on a position that doesn’t start in a reasonable time? Is it appropriate to leave a position that you accepted if it doesn’t start in a reasonable time?

    1. valentine*

      Is it appropriate to leave a position that you accepted if it doesn’t start in a reasonable time?
      Definitely. I’m suspicious the work can just sit while you do your would-be-ex-job and wait for one or two (!) new people to be hired and trained.

  237. Sansa*

    I work with a coworker who has increasingly been more difficult to work with. I work in a team of two, me and Theon. He’s a nice guy and really tries to play the chill attitude, but after working with him for awhile, it’s more like the chill attitude is lack of attention to detail and not being a team player.

    He is not my boss, but he’s technically my superior, because he is a lot higher on the degree scale than me, but I feel a lot of time I’m managing the team. I constantly catch mistakes or have to remind him to do things that he’s supposed to do. Other coworkers who cover for him are aggravated because they constantly have to correct mistakes or spend time doing extra work because he doesn’t document well, or communicate well.

    One coworker has now complained to management a few times about mistakes and procedures he hasn’t been following. He always gets extremely defensive and feels like other coworkers are tattling on him and becomes even more withdrawn, uncommunicative and irritable. Between that and possibly something personal he’s been very difficult to work with.

    I was offline for a couple days last week so someone, Bran, covered for me. All I did was add Bran to some email strings and asked Arya to help Bran out. Next thing I know I get an irritated im from Theon saying that I was causing a distraction because now Bran and Arya were asking him questions and he was losing focus during a busy time. I honestly didn’t know how to reply because I didn’t know what I did wrong. He goes on to say that there were too many cooks in the kitchen and it’s annoying to him and he sorry if it sounds harsh. I’ve been getting these types of im a few times now, many when I don’t feel I’ve done anything wrong.

    I’ve also had to ask him correct stuff and one time he got pretty defensive when a coworker didn’t understand something he had written and I asked him to fix it. He im’d that person and told them was was doing, but didn’t fix the actual document. When I asked him to fix the document he then asked me how he should word it to make more sense. I answered my opinion and thought he fixed it, but when I went to print it out to send to a customer, it was still incorrect. I had to have a different coworker fix it later on.

    I’m ready to go to management about it because I’m very frustrated by his behavior. Other coworkers have noticed and concerned as well. How do I approach this in the best way?

    1. WellRed*

      By focusing on the impact on you, the workflow, the customer…whatever fits. Also. If by degree scale you mean he has more academic degrees, is that an actual thing that matters at your company or is it only in your mind?

    2. ArtK*

      In talking to management, keep the focus on how his behavior is affecting the work. Not how it makes you feel personally. Before going in to management, ask yourself this question: “How is his behavior losing the company money?” List the behaviors that are costing — like extra work.

      And no, you haven’t done anything wrong. He’s a jerk. Just because someone else is “upset,” it doesn’t mean that it’s your fault. His annoyance is his problem, that he’s brought on himself.

      1. Sansa*

        Thank you guys. I’ll definitely stick to the points and not make it personal.

        WellRed- Oh, I should’ve been more clear, he is an Md and I’m a technician so his degree makes him higher than me. I find stuff that are incorrect that are not within my scope to fix myself. I’m reminding him to do stuff that’s not within my scope to do myself. I think that’s why it’s also more frustrating when he is uncommunicative. I feel I’m leading a team, which should be a team effort lead by him.

        1. VlookupsAreMyLife*

          That sounds rough, Sansa! I agree with what’s been shared so far…time to go to management! Just make it about the work & the inefficiencies created. I’d ask your manager straight out, “How do you want me to address these situations going forward?”

          Good luck & share an update! :)

  238. Anon for Today*

    Just left a job that I poured my heart and soul into for five years and I am devastated. I was forced out by a new manager who pretty much made the past 6 months among the worst in my professional life. I remained professional til the end, even trained the replacement they hired and foisted on me at the last second. I had multiple companies recruit me heavily and two made me strong offers. I start my new job next week that has already made me feel so wanted. You’d think I’d be ecstatic, but I’m not. I feel depressed, anxious, and imposter syndrome is looming large. It doesn’t help that I gave myself just the weekend to recover (in retrospect, I should have taken a week off, but it’s too late to change it now). I think I’m mostly sad about having the past 5 years completely overshadowed by a bad last 6 months. And, I’m freaking out that maybe new job will end up being the same thing…

    1. Batgirl*

      I think that’s pretty normal. As you exit a dysfunctional situation the adrenaline that carried you through fades out and the twitching begins. You’ve been in a situation where you’ve been persuaded that “heart and soul” is a reasonable thing for others to ask of you. That great sacrifice foreshadows great rewards. There’ll be a period of feeling deceived.

      It’s only going to get better. You have new tools and lessons in your kit bag. You have natural healing responses which are only just kicking in. You’re clearly in high demand. Is this a frying pan to fire situation? Possibly, but with a new job you can always bail quickly and take up one of those other offers. You’ll always have a more experienced eye for early warning signs now. You wouldn’t even put it on your resume. Besides there’s a very good chance it’s all fine. But if it’s not, you’re in a position to deal.

      1. OP Anon for Today*

        Thank you so much, Batgirl!

        The feeling of deception…that hits the nail square! I feel erased & cheated out of the legacy I worked so hard to leave. Empirically, I know that most folks will not remember me this way. But, my emotions are all over the place right now, and, that gives me pause. It tells me that I have allowed this job to consume me & other people to dictate my value/worth in a way that is unhealthy.

        I’m so thankful for the AAM community for helping me to realize that & get out myself before they found a way to do it for me.

        I shall spend the weekend performing some cleansing rituals & setting my intentions for this next phase. Oh, and bingeing HANNA on Amazon because, who doesn’t love Joel Kinnamon?!?!

    2. ConfusedKiwi*

      That really sucks, I’m sorry you’re going through that. I have had similar and it is tough to move on, and I don’t at all think you should be feeling ecstatic even though you have a new role – how you’re feeling is completely understandable! I hope the new role provides a more supportive environment and a good balance for you.

  239. Edie*

    I have an ethical quandary that I want to ask you guys about….

    So I am at a place that has undergone a lot of change in the past year. My boss was hired around the same time as I was. From our whole department’s perspective, and contract workers’ perspective, my boss is struggling with the amount of responsibility the job takes. In fact, my boss delegates to us certain things that really should be done by a manager. I am the type that believes whatever your boss tells you, it’s your job. But it’s quite hard when we get more tasks when we already have a ton of the work we’re normally doing. The boss recently has been making a big deal about our hours, even though we are salaried, and recently told us that our lunches would be reduced to 30 minutes, which is not even time to do anything. I consider an hour lunch part of my self care and a chance to get away and relax for a bit.

    That said, my boss has generally treated me as a favorite, I think because I’m willing to do nearly any task they give me. Due to that they tend to confide in me a lot, so I know about certain things that they don’t tell the rest of the staff (I’m aware this is inappropriate, and I don’t share staff secrets or my own life with her). I consider the staff my friends though, we get along very well.

    So here’s the big issue for me. My boss recently told me that one of my coworkers is in danger of being fired. They told me not to mention it to anyone. This coworker clearly has extreme burnout and complains a lot–but does their job and has the knowledge. I totally get that I should have never got this information, and it’s very hard for me to say to my boss this is crossing boundaries to talk about other staff to me.

    I feel like if I give my coworker this information, that will really cause serious drama and there is already plenty going on due to poor management. What do I even do here? This just seems like such a mess. Do I even say anything about how my manager has been behaving overall?

    1. Edie*

      To add, my boss altered the hours on one of my coworker’s days to make it less hours. The employee *is* salaried, but because we are funded through grants, proper time reporting is important…. Anyway that is why I am now feeling uncomfortable about the manager.

      1. valentine*

        Don’t say anything to the coworker. Just in general, don’t reveal confidence from TPTB, but also remember the letter where the manager went nuclear, a lot of people left for lower-paying jobs, and there was no downsizing on the table.

        It seems like you’re saying your boss is defrauding the government. If this includes the 30-minute lunches, consider using your position as favorite to get back the 30 and report accurately. Also perhaps reconsider doing whatever she tells you to do. Is it really appropriate to your role? Is it helping your career?

    2. VlookupsAreMyLife*

      Oh wow, I’m sorry this is happening. This sounds rough on many levels. I don’t think you can come right out & tell your coworker what you know. It sounds like something you should not really be privy to, and it’s still too vague to be actionable.

      Perhaps you could speak with them about their experience and your observations. You mentioned burnout & complaining. Could those be gateways to discussing if they’ve thought about moving on, or what types of opportunities they might be interested in elsewhere? Perhaps a gentle nudge of, “hey, you seem really unhappy here, what are you going to do about that?” might help them either re-evaluate the current situation or start taking some steps to find a different job.

      If that dead ends, maybe you could just say that you’ve noticed they are behaving differently at work, and it might not be reflecting well on them. I think sharing your personal observations and concerns about your co-worker’s demeanor (instead of what you heard from your manager) is okay, if it’s something you feel is appropriate given the relationship.

      Good luck to you. And, I hope your manager gets their own issues sorted out soon, for everyone’s sake!

      1. Edie*

        I have mentioned it to my coworker (the seeming stressed and burned out). They have told us (the other coworkers and me, not the boss) that they are job searching. So that’s good, I guess. But yeah I don’t feel I should know this info and I feel like it puts me in a bad spot. Plus my boss is not doing well in her job, but I like my boss as a person. Which also makes it hard.

        1. VlookupsAreMyLife*

          Oof, yeah…sounds like your job is just all KINDS of hard right now. Hang in there. Be well!

  240. Annoyed admin*

    Wondering how to deal with a difficult colleague – we’re on the admin team at a small company, where we have a lot of our own responsibilities but some overlap/shared tasks as well. Shared tasks include booking travel, ordering and administering catering for meetings, covering the receptionist’s lunch, and so on.

    We’ve both been taking on a lot of project work over the year or so we’ve been at the company. This one colleague’s performance and availability on the shared tasks (which, lets be honest, are the least-glamourous tasks of the job) has plummeted; she’s the one who’s always “too busy” to help when needed – say the receptionist is out sick and we need to share coverage that day.

    I’ve also seen firsthand cases where she’s dropped the ball on projects or just mixed up details, been unavailable, etc. People have come to me for things because they’ve tried asking her but she either hadn’t gotten it done or outright told them she’s too busy. It’s now at a point that the people she reports directly to (a couple of executives/upper management) are asking for her to get the admin tasks taken off her plate so she can focus more on her project work. (I believe she has been telling them that the admin tasks are why she can’t keep up with her project work.)

    This is a problem for me because the admin team is only 3 people. This means a lot more of those easy-but-annoying admin tasks for me and the other admin, and it means my ability to take on projects, etc is hampered because those will now be taking up more of my day. I also do not have any performance issues – I had a glowing performance review at year end, and I get regular, unsolicited positive feedback from the people I work with. I can’t help feeling resentment that she is potentially “failing up” or that I’m being punished for being helpful and being able to juggle the admin tasks with my project work. I’m also a decade senior to this person, though I don’t have a senior title to her in any way.

    Is this something I need to push back on before this conversation among management goes any further? I have a high level of trust with my direct manager but he’s very focused on his own work and not generally inclined to get involved in conversations about what the other admins are doing. Or – is this something I need to get over?

    1. WellRed*

      I think you should say something. Focus on the impact on the work, not on any resentment of her. Before you do, can you figure out what outcome you’d like to see? Her doing her job? Would you like more project work? A small promotion?

  241. nephthys43*

    Not technically work-related, but related to the site.

    I was going through some of the older posts and was trying to find one from a while ago. I don’t remember the exact details, but the OP had drama with someone, it wasn’t handled properly, drama continued, and then finally some big boss showed up and flipped out when they found out it wasn’t fixed. I found one that I thought was it, but I read through and it wasn’t. Not the spicy food one, not the guy who called her “baby mama” and the c-word and then HR reamed her out over stupid things. I don’t know why I can’t remember more details.

    Anyone have a guess?

  242. Bears Beets Battlestar*

    I used Allison’s advice twice this week and it worked great! It seems like a lot of the time, the advice is to maintain a neutral tone. So I did that when my boss told me I mis-handled a situation even though I followed procedure, and a secretary got snippy with me. Just said “ok, I understand, etc.” in a calm, even tone and got (sort-of) apologies later! Thanks for the great advice!

    1. valentine*

      I hope this means you corrected the boss or both of them and they know you followed procedure.

  243. push send*

    Anyone got any advice for surviving a war of attrition in the workplace? I’m on year five of a ten year job and have to find some way to outlast my boss in order for my retirement to be secured. I’d love to look for other work but I actually like my job duties and nothing around pays nearly as much as the current gig.

    Boss is a very vindictive person and can’t read people well so when she has perceived you as slighting her, she will micromanage your work until she gets distracted by any other shiny thing. I talked with a few other co workers and she apparently does this to everyone, including the three decade veterans.

  244. E*

    I’ve been with my company for 8 hellish years and I am now being slighted by the company again for the second time while people with less experience who haven’t worked there as long, who are not as fast or knowledgeable as myself, it seems apparent to me that they have done everything to hold me back and hold me down this entire time. It doesn’t seem to make a difference what I do or don’t do, they make sure it isn’t me. Well today the person they gave my spot to the first time today shared an email I do not believe was intended for everyone to see, this undeserving person who stole my spot shared an email with my entire department which I believe was shared with her by our boss which I believe was shared with our boss by a regional manager over the person the email was about. As the person who shared the email with my department is now a “straw boss” with no real management title but allowed to go around being bitchy to & telling more seasoned qualified people what to do, doing our bosses dirty work for her so to speak even at her own skewed discretion. I forwarded my boss some of her other badly toned mass emails to The rest of the group just a couple of days prior in an attempt to throw this person under The bus and received no response from the boss. This person is very annoying, laughs umpromptedly all The time, the spell check on word and email are The only thing saving her from being exposed as The real idiot she is (excel doesn’t have spell check & my third grader can spell better than this ignoramus). “Cayn’t” isn’t a word sorry, not just the spelling but the speaking is just as bad. This was not a forwarded email as this straw boss typically does to make herself seem more authorative but a copy and pasted text within her own email naming the employee by name with text from this employees regional manager saying that he was admitted Friday for psychiatric evaluation and not to send him any emails concerning any work related matters but to email his manager instead. Pretty sure this wasn’t meant for everyone to see and isn’t free public knowledge, if the ordinal mails between managers were meant to be sent to everyone I’m sure they would have and not needed egghead straw boss to mass email it for them. If that employee returns to work he will now be stigmatized, I don’t know him personally but maybe dealt with him on 1 or 2 occasions, but that could have easily been anyone. Not only do I have a personal bone to pick with these awful people but cam you imagine if they freely divulge these things about other people that they must be free with everyone information!? I’m sure this employee or any others with personal issues wouldn’t appreciate it. I can remember myself emailing my boss to the effect of myself missing work to go to the doctor for antibiotics for a chest infection and the boss copying a non-managerial who was my senior within the company. They all knew I was coughing but if I wanted to email other people about it besides my boss I would have. While I do need a job,I’m a single mother who doesn’t get any government help who could surely use the promotion within the women’s area more than the underqualified newbies who are married & don’t want to be a whistleblower I think this is wrong & it’s the perfect chance to try to muddy the name of the straw boss who shared it with everyone else. Why are non-managers being shared or privileged anything?

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