open thread – April 5-6, 2019

by Alison Green on April 5, 2019

It’s the Friday open thread! The comment section on this post is open for discussion with other readers on anything work-related that you want to talk about. If you want an answer from me, emailing me is still your best bet*, but this is a chance to talk to other readers.

* If you submitted a question to me recently, please don’t repost it here, as it may be in the to-be-answered queue.

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  1. Small but Fierce*

    I have two questions about pre-interview contact etiquette.

    1. For an external role, is it appropriate to reach out to an internal recruiter on LinkedIn to let them know you have applied? What about a hiring manager? I’m connected with an internal recruiter who I have good reason to believe would be covering two roles I applied for (same location and function), so I’m wondering how it would look if I let them know that I applied. If it’s okay, how long after applying should I reach out?

    2. For an internal role, is it appropriate to email the hiring manager before applying to ask about their willingness to hire a remote employee? My manager currently lets me work remotely due to my spouse’s relocation. While I’d like to be promoted by the year’s end due to high COL in my new state, I’d prefer to stay within the company if possible. My internal promotion opportunities are limited since there is only one small office location in this state. Some roles have several locations listed, so I wondered if it would be appropriate to ask if they would hire someone if they’re not at a listed location.

    Thanks for your help!

    1. Fenchurch*

      Channeling my inner Alison, I’d say for the second question that it’s a bit premature to email them even prior to applying to discuss working conditions. If you reach the point of interviewing, that would be a good place to broach the subject.

      1. Small but Fierce*

        Thanks! My concern is that the recruiter may reject the application immediately when they notice I’m not based at any of the locations and assume I’ll need to be relocated. It’d be great to know prior to then if I can say that the hiring manager is okay with remote employees.

        1. Small but Fierce*

          Also, I believe I would need to notify my current manager if I apply to anything. I’d rather not put that on their radar unless I already know that the hiring manager would consider me despite my location.

          1. Escapee from Corporate Management*

            Small but Fierce, Alison addressed this topic the other day. Typically, you don’t inform your manager you are looking until you are actually leaving. Informing them now can lead to any number of bad outcomes for you (retribution, an early firing, loss of opportunities to get promoted, etc.). Why do you feel the need to notify your manager?

            1. Elle*

              It’s often different for internal roles – op may need their current line manager’s approval to even apply.

            2. Small but Fierce*

              For internal opportunities, it is our company policy to notify your hiring manager when you receive an interview at the latest. I believe the advice was referring to leaving for external opportunities, but I could be mistaken.

              2. Escapee from Corporate Management*

                Thanks for clarifying. If you’re applying internally, you should definitely tell your manager. However, I would wait until you get some feedback on whether a remote role is even possible, if you can.

                1. wondHRland*

                  If your current manager would be open to it, maybe they could ask the question? Sort of, I have an employee who’s interested if the role could be done remotely . If your current manager endorsed you to the possible new manager, would that maybe carry more weight, becasue they can speak to your work habits and reliability?

          2. Lily Rowan*

            In my job, there’s a pretty strong culture of internal applicants reaching out to the hiring manager for an informal chat before applying, but I think that’s going to be a “know your workplace” kind of thing.

            1. Small but Fierce*

              Yeah, it’s hard to tell with mine because it’s a national company with a lot of subsidiaries. The one time I did that in the past, it was no problem because I personally knew the hiring manager since we worked in the same subsidiary. I think I’d be more inclined to do it with someone I worked with in some capacity over a complete stranger, even if it is internal.

    2. Ellen*

      Also channeling MY inner Alison… Re: #1, there’s no reason to reach out to someone you don’t know on LinkedIn and let them know that you applied. They know that from your application!

      If, however, you know the hiring manager, absolutely reach out to them and let them know you applied. But it’s better to use email than LinkedIn.

      1. Small but Fierce*

        True! I’m feeling a bit burned by online applications. While my interview/offer ratio is great, I have never had success getting an interview without a recruiter or knowing someone at the company. Since we’re connected on LinkedIn, I figured that’s better than a complete stranger, but I’m sure that’s not the case.

      2. Karen from Finance*

        I have had success messaging a recruiter with whom I was connected on Linkedin, and telling them very briefly: “Hi X, I’d like to know more about the position of Llama Groomer, I have 5 years experience grooming llamas in 10 different styles”. I ended up never entering my application at all, they just contacted me for an interview based on my Linkedin. But this worked because the job posting lined up to the letter with my job experience and what it seemed they were looking for, they were in a rush to fill the role, and it didn’t look like a company that was flooded with requests.

        If it’s a huge company, then yeah, you’re better off just following the application process.

        1. Small but Fierce*

          Unfortunately, it’s a large company. A direct competitor of my current one, so I may be more qualified than a typical applicant, but I’m sure they get tons of applications.

          1. Karen from Finance*

            Can you try to gauge from their profile whether they are the type of person who would be ok being contacted? Some people post on Linkedin (on the feed/blog/whatchacallit), you can get some information there. HR people tend to use it to share job listings. So an HR person who is ok to be contacted may share it with a message saying “contact me for details!” while one who doesn’t will write “please apply through this link”, etc.

            1. Small but Fierce*

              Good idea! I checked and she has no description or recent post history to refer to. However, she does have her company email address listed in her “contact info” section. I don’t think I’d consider that enough of an indication that she’s open to contact, though.

              1. Karen from Finance*

                Yeah, based on that I’d leave it alone and follow the usual application process.

    3. Rat Racer*

      Hi – I don’t have advice on #1, but for #2, I’d reach out to the hiring manager, express interest in the position share your CV and get the conversation started before you mention the remote worker possibility. There’s always a tricky balance of when to mention a caveat/accommodation, but I think the second or third email might be the right spot. Another option would be to find someone you’re acquainted with who works on the Hiring Manager’s team and ask them what they think – i.e. get the inside scoop.

      1. Small but Fierce*

        I’ve definitely considered doing that as well, but I wonder if it comes off like I’m trying to circumvent the application process by sending the resume directly. While I also wouldn’t have any acquaintances in the hiring manager’s team in most circumstances, I think finding them in Outlook and asking them may be more innocuous than reaching out to the manager directly.

    4. Small but Fierce*

      wondHRland, I tried to respond to you directly, but the thread didn’t give me an option. I think my manager would be hurt if I left as early as I’d like to since she used some capital to let me work remotely. While I’ve reported to her for almost two years, I’ve also only been in this role a year. She would speak highly of me, but I could see it burning a bridge and being problematic for me if I didn’t get the first job I asked for her help with.

    5. PennyLane*

      1) I wouldn’t. Whichever person is handling the applications (and you don’t know) already knows you applied because they have your application. As someone who is often the recipient of applications and these types of messages, it makes no difference. I see your application and if I want to interview you, I will. The additional message is just more work for me.

      2) For an internal position, I think it would be fine to ask about working remotely. But you’ll want to respect how they feel and not push it if they don’t feel comfortable with a remote worker.

    6. Penguin*

      Re #1, if you’ve worked with the recruiter on placement stuff before and if it’s normal in the company/industry for applicants to initiate conversations with recruiters, then yes it might be appropriate to ask them if they’re handling those openings. Otherwise, I’d say no.

      Re #2, no. You /could/ (maybe) use your cover letter to highlight your stellar remote work and let them potentially just never contact you if they’re not interested in remote workers, but if you want a direct answer I’d say treat it like similar issues handled on an individual basis (like benefits, medical accommodations, etc.) and bring it up in an interview. Reaching out ahead of time is unfortunately going to look like you’re trying to circumvent the application process, even if you’re just trying to know whether you should self-select out.

      For what it’s worth:
      I recently distributed my company’s vacancy announcement to various listservs (I was involved in the hiring process but not the final decision-maker). Someone responded directly to me asking about working the position remotely. In doing so they ignored both the application instructions and the line that I had no further information. They came across exactly as if they were trying to skip the process (the line “before I go through the effort of applying” didn’t help.) My boss chose not to interview them.

      I can’t speak for full-time recruiters, but for those of us who only deal with vacancy stuff in addition to our normal workloads we want applicants to follow the directions because that’s the least-disruptive way for us to manage the process on our end. Someone doing otherwise is (I think) more likely to hurt them than help, if only because it means the hiring manager (or whoever) has to make a snap decision as to whether they’re going to invest (a small amount of) additional time into a particular applicant before they have any idea of said applicant’s qualifications, and so many of us are under such time crunches that even that size of investment just isn’t going to feel feasible and so the response will just be to discard the applicant.

      1. Database Developer Dude*

        “Reaching out ahead of time is unfortunately going to look like you’re trying to circumvent the application process, even if you’re just trying to know whether you should self-select out”

        So it’s not cool for applicants to want to save time, just prospective employers….nice…..

    7. Public Sector Manager*

      For #2, I think everyone above has covered the subject nicely and I have nothing to add.

      For #1, I wouldn’t reach out to the person unless you know the person well enough to where they would take your phone call anyway. If you really don’t know them, please don’t reach out. LinkedIn connections are highly overrated.

    8. Small but Fierce*

      Thanks all! I think my takeaway for both scenarios is to not reach out, as tempting as it would be. Here’s to hoping the online application systems have mercy on me.

    9. ConstructionRecruiter*

      1. Please don’t. I’m the sole Recruiter for a 400+ person company- I get over 50 applications a day, if I was contacted by every applicant through another route, I would never get any work done.

    10. Lobsterp0t*

      Some places have the hiring manager’s information in the actual advert, and it says you can call for informal discussions, but for something like remote working, if it’s not already explicit that that’s something they would consider, I would just apply and discuss if I got an interview, I think.

  2. Need Advice*

    I work for a very small company, 10 employees. Throughout the year we help out a local charity, that also has a very small staff of 5 people. Most of our work with this charity is with their annual fundraiser. This charity is a cause that many in our small office support. Our boss is fine with us working on the fundraiser during working hours throughout the year; in fact part of our job description is to put in x hours a week working on the fundraiser. This fundraiser is our company’s way of giving back to the community. We’ve had a lot of success in the past. This is my first year at this company and I am really really enjoying being a champion for such a wonderful cause.

    Due to the fact that AAM is very popular in our small community I am changing some examples to protect the recipients of the charity. Say there is a cause such as Supporting an animal adoption shelter. The charity we assist helps raise awareness for a lesser known pet animal. There are a lot of other pet charities in our geographical area that champion for more well known/ common pets. There is no animosity between different charities; there is no competition.

    I do have to say though that our charity is the smallest in size and resources and probably the last in line during fundraising season. Despite that, our company and the charity have been able to “keep up with the Jones’”. We are often complimented on our unique spin to the fundraiser.

    For some reason this year, there is a lot of excitement about our fundraiser, but the RSVPs have been very slow. Now that we are in crunch time with three weeks to go, everyone is somewhat panicked. Yes we accept RSVPs at the door. Now our company and the charity are having brainstorming meetings that are going way over my head as the rookie. How do I come up with ideas to increase attendance, support our company and support the charity, make me seem professional and the ideas won’t seem silly.

    In the end it will be a success, but I guess I am more nervous than I need to be as the new person.

    1. Bubbleon*

      Do you have any idea why you aren’t getting as many RSVPs? Has anyone reached out to top regular donors who haven’t RSVPd to see if there’s another big event or if there’s some specific reason why they might not have said yes already? If you guys can get some feedback about why some regulars might not be on board yet, it might help you tailor strategies for less frequent/new attendees

    2. Temperance*

      I think the best thing for you to do right now would be to listen to what everyone else in the room is saying. Not knowing more about your org, or the nonprofit that you support, there’s a lot of context that might change the pitch of the conversation. It’s always easier to sell helping kids over helping inmates, as one of my colleagues put it.

      Event timing is a huge one. We joke about April being “Benefit Month”, and I always love the first one and am burned out by the last one, and I’m going to donate less at the last one because I spent so much time and money on other fundraisers (for example).

      1. Need Advice*

        I totally hear you about being last in line.

        Again I don’t want to give away the charity or cause to protect the recipients, but using your analogy we are on the side of helping kids.

        Because we are so small we have some of our larger needs donated, such as the location of the fundraiser. Since we are reliant on these donations, we have very little wiggle room with the timing hence we usually end up being the last fundraiser.

    3. Michelle*

      I work in a museum. When we have events that require RSVP’s, it seems like people wait to until the very last minute, even when we have repeatedly stated in all advertising that the cut-off time is X. It seems like they don’t understand that we have to makes sure we have enough staff, prepare enough food, etc. We always, always, always get people who call late or just hours before the event, begging to attend; “it’s just me, can’t you squeeze me in? “I need just one more ticket”, etc.

      I don’t know if that is what your company has experienced in the past, but maybe ask. We have changed the date of our fundraiser several times because we have 3 museums in our org and it’s like triple-dipping in the same pool.

    4. Fundraiser Here*

      During my years as a professional fundraiser i have noticed two trends…People wait until the last minute to RSVP and there is something about “turning the page on the calendar” that causes people to realize. “oh my. it is already April. dont we have that event soon?”. which is why whenever possible I don’t schedule a special event for the fist week of a month. I don’t think anyone who does special events ever stops worrying about the RSVPs until the event is sold out, which creates a new set of issues. Breath deeply. One way you can help is to reach out to your connections and ask them to attend. A personal touch works wonders Share info about the event on your social media and aks others to do so also. Consider making phone calls or sending emails to past attendees encouraging them to attend. You can even convey a sense of urgency that tickets are going fast and you dont want to miss this event. Put together a series of memes, releasing one per day on social media and email, on the Top 10 Reasons You Don’t Want To Miss This Event. Always include a link where people can buy tickets.

    5. Sleepy*

      Hmmm, fatigue from the giving community? I don’t know why, bit from time to time my org has had a fundraiser that turns out to be a bust. People who often attend just don’t want to that time and it’s hard for them to articulate why exactly, except for a sense of “it doesn’t sound enjoyable right now”. I find notice this has happened when we repeat the same format too often or ask the same people to attend too many events. Not sure what my advice would be but I do extend my sympathy to how difficult fundraising is.

    6. Existentialista*

      Some very good advice I heard from a company President a few jobs ago was that it’s best to offer something that’s inexpensive for you to provide but valuable for your donors.

      So, for example, a raffle of prizes such as they chance to meet a local celebrity who supports your cause and would be willing to donate their time, or a chance to play with a Lesser Known Pet, or something else unique but low-cost to you, could be an effective draw.

  3. Youth*

    I wrote on the Aug 10-11 and Feb 22-23 about my job being very stressful and adding pressure to a set of already overwhelming circumstances. I was looking for a new job but was having a hard time finding one.

    Well, great news! I’ve just accepted a new job in my field (writing). And as an unforeseen bonus, it looks like I’m about to start my first-ever romantic relationship. :)

    Not-so-great news: My immediate supervisor agreed to be a reference (risky, but I knew I could trust him) and was very gracious when I resigned. The head of my department, on the other hand, took it very personally, tried to counteroffer, vaguely insulted me for “not being able to handle stress very well,” and overall acted like I was doing something wrong. It was bizarre and made me feel really bad. I’ve tried so hard to be a good employee!

    1. curious*

      Congrats on the new job and the romance. DOn’t worry about what your former head of department is saying. You need to do what’s best for you. Everyone wants to work in an environment that they feel comfortable in. Enjoy this next phase in life

    3. dramalama*

      The great news is great! As for the not-so-great news, as somebody emotionally removed from the situation my reaction was “pfft, of course they would”. I would try to reframe it for yourself as validation that you made the right move getting out of there, because if that was their reaction Your Boss Sucks and [Was] Never Going to Change.

    4. Seeking Second Childhood*

      Good for you! Sounds like I’d keep in touch with that supervisor…but not the department head.
      There’s a difference between an employee who doesn’t handle stress well and an employer that creates unecessary stress. It’s healthy to be able to recognize the difference.

      1. Happy Lurker*

        There’s a difference between an employee who doesn’t handle stress well and an employer that creates unnecessary stress. It’s healthy to be able to recognize the difference.

        Well put. I will be mentally saving that for a days when I need to change up my Serenity Prayer or 10 deep breaths.

    5. College Career Counselor*

      So, the dept. head tried to guilt-trip you into staying someplace that was a bad fit because of the stress the place causes? Riiiiiight. Keep your head up, Youth! You’re doing the right thing for YOU, which is perfectly acceptable. The approach I try to take when saying goodbye to an employee or colleague is “I’m happy for you, but sad for us that you’re leaving.” I don’t get to be the arbiter of someone else’s career choices (you didn’t ask for her opinion or blessing), and just keep telling yourself that it’s incredibly petty of the dept. head to have done that. It says way more about that person than it does about your choices.

      Congratulations on the new job and the new romance!

    6. That Girl From Quinn's House*

      Bad employers always, always victim blame instead of seeing what they did/are doing wrong. They are *never* the problem, the employee always is.

      Congratulations on your escape!

      1. Zennish*

        “But we’ve underpaid, undervalued, and disrespected you for years… I can’t believe you’d betray us by leaving like this.”

    7. Emily S.*

      Congratulations on getting out of that place!

      And good luck with the romance. My advice is to take is slow. ;)

    8. I Wrote This in the Bathroom*

      I once had a manager who, when I resigned, told me that my sin (of quitting without notice) would come back to me. I admit he made me feel somewhat bad at the moment. 25 years later, it is a great story to tell at parties. As for his prophecy, I had a new job that was closer to my field and paid several times more three weeks later (I’d quit with nothing lined up), and as for him, I heard rumors that he was still looking for my replacement seven months later. He’d developed a reputation in our small town and no one wanted to work for him. Congrats and godspeed!

    10. designbot*

      You know, it can be a really powerful thing to realize that you *can* handle the stress, but you just have no reason to. If someone else can offer you better conditions, why on earth wouldn’t you take them? That department head has way too much ego wrapped up in this , probably because of all the mental gymnastics he has to go through to convince himself to stay.

      1. Youth*

        She’s been there for almost twenty years, so I think she has a higher-than-average investment in the company. Which, good for her! I just became un-invested after about three years of always feeling in a panic and have spent the last almost-two years job searching. I feel like they’ve definitely gotten a lot from me, and almost-five years is quite a good amount to spend at any company, in my opinion.

        1. Camellia*

          My goodness, yes! Looking back on my now-38 year career, I advise people to spend 4 to 7 years at a company – come in, make your mistakes, learn from them, then take that and move on to the next job with what should be better pay and respect.

    12. Argh!*

      I wouldn’t feel badly for that! I’d feel like it was confirmation that I’d made the right decision. I’d think, “Bon voyage, Bad Grandboss! Good luck with your next stressed-out employee! Or better yet, hire two people to replace me. Have a nice life!”

      Congratulations!

    13. Who Plays Backgammon?*

      Don’t feel bad. Your dept. head is a jerk. You can’t “handle stress very well,” but they take it personally that you’re leaving and want you to stay? Then again, maybe they want out too and they’re jealous of you. :)

  4. Middle Manager*

    Best tips for someone relatively new to hiring? Especially for government interview panels? What are the key things you look for in responses, etc.

    1. an idea*

      I had a boss once tell me, if a person has a basic background (such as a degree) you can teach anyone a specific job. It’s better to hire someone that fits in personality wise and teach the job how you want it done, than to hire someone that you won’t get along with 10 hours a day. Disclaimer this was for an entry level/ next step up job but it’s something that I’ve applied through the years and found great success making it one of the things I look for.

      1. irene adler*

        Agree- personality fit is very important.

        Listen to your gut- even if you can’t articulate what it’s telling you. If your gut says “no”, move on to the next candidate.
        You will not run out of candidates, so don’t let that become a worry. Or a reason to hire someone less than optimal.

      2. Bostonian*

        I’m going to offer a counter-opinion that putting too much weight on “personality fit” can be dangerous and counter-productive because it can lead to a homogeneous group of workers, and has the potential to let unconscious bias turn into downright discrimination.

        1. Who Plays Backgammon?*

          Thank you! My boss hires the applicants she clearly just plain LIKES the best, and they’re mostly used-car-salesman types, nonstop talkers with pushy personalities, usually pretty bright to be sure, but clueless about boundaries and with a good dose of ego. She sees these folks as energetic go-getters. More demure people who don’t blow trumpets and run up flags that say “I did my job!!!” are less likely to attract her notice or praise even if they’re doing the job just as well and hitting the same productivity goals.

          Sometimes there are frictions between people that she’s quick to brush off as “personality conflicts” (there’s that P word again), when it’s not about personality at all, but behavior.

        2. Dramatic Squirrel*

          + 1 you can definitely keep an eye out for red flags but hiring on personilty fit reduces diversity and creativity.

      3. Argh!*

        I make a point of hiring people who are different from myself. Why would I want to talk to myself all day? I want to hear about other ways of doing things, other ways of looking at the world, and I want someone who loves to do the stuff I hate to do!

      4. Who Plays Backgammon?*

        Don’t assume anyone can learn a specific job just because they have certain personality traits.

        And be sure of what you mean by “fits in personality wise.” In my experience, this leads to assembling a bunch of buddies–great for going out for pizza together but they don’t necessarily bring to the table everything that’s needed to get work done.

        I couldn’t agree more with Bostonian. I’ve seen so many managers hire the applicants they just plain LIKE the best on a personal, er, gut level, and wind up with not-so-great workers. The last example in my office, my boss just bubbled over about a young woman with whom I saw issues from her first interview. Boy did she think she was the cat’s meow. But Boss hired her practically on the spot. She was so outgoing and enthusiastic! So self-assured! Boss and other staff spent hours and hours training her–much more time and attention than anyone else ever got in that position. Cat’s Meow was an adept kiss-up who became an instant favorite. She came and went as she pleased, often away from her desk hanging out, er, networking and learning from people at the next level up. They just loved her and were eager to teach her. She was slated to train for the next level up; however, Boss finally spoke to her about certain ongoing deficiencies in her work habits. After she left (I was off that day so I don’t know if she quit or was canned, darn it), Boss had to scour Cat’s Meow’s computer for the time-sensitive work she was supposed to do and mostly found files about her personal activities. But she had a great personality!

      5. an idea*

        I probably should have gone into a little more detail when I said someone who fits personality wise. With my boss who gave me the advice I give this example. I found out that one of my competitors for the job I was applying to I happened to graduate with. I was an average B student, he was third in our class. My boss, in trying to break the ice during interviews asked if we had any hobbies, how we spend our free time. My competitor gave a general answer of I like to go out with friends. I on the other hand listed a few specific things I like to do and enthusiastically spoke about going to my first professional hockey game that weekend (hockey wasn’t common where I went to school). My boss said that because I could make “small talk” he was more inclined to hire me. I’ve tried to apply similar train of thought when I’m on hiring teams now. I do look at other things when hiring. I ask all the right experience type questions, but I also try to make sure it is someone I can have a conversation with.

        1. Someone Else*

          This isn’t the sort of thing I screen for when thinking of personality fit. I think of things that affect the work, but where there isn’t necessarily one clear “right” preference, but there is one preference that suits the way y’all work. For example: I prefer meetings to always start and end on time. I’m not un-personable, but I try to keep the hello-how-are-you chit chat stuff to less than a minute for the whole group before we jump in, and stay on topic, and end on time. Others prefer a much more loose structure, don’t care if the chatting goes to 5 min, might not have started right on time anyway, don’t necessarily end on time either. Plenty of people are chill with that, but it’d drive me nuts. I’d be a bad fit in an office like that. Other people might be driven nuts by the way I prefer it.

    2. Temperance*

      My biggest one is to go with your gut. I hired an intern even though she was overbearing and annoying in our earlier communications, and now I seriously dread whenever she comes in to the office. It’s my own fault for moving forward when I had reservations (she came with a recommendation from someone I really respect, and so I overlooked the obvious personality clash), and now I’m in an annoying, awkward situation.

      1. Minocho*

        Since it’s an intern, at least it’s likely to be a very temporary annoying situation!

        1. Temperance*

          This is ABSOLUTELY true. :) She asked to come back next year, and I told my boss that I just couldn’t take it if she did. LOL

      2. Librarian of SHIELD*

        I agree with this. I was on a hiring panel where I had a really bad feeling about a candidate everyone else liked and wanted to hire. I didn’t have any concrete reason to advise not hiring the person, just a bad feeling, so I didn’t say anything. The candidate was hired, and it turned out to be a terrible fit and a really uncomfortable situation for a lot of our pre-existing staff. If you get a weird or bad feeling from a candidate, trust that.

        1. Wakeens Teapots LTD*

          Mmmmmmmmm – maybe. I think a weird or bad feeling can be a helpful red flag to look into XYZ further, but we all have internal prejudices we’re unaware of. Guts aren’t rational or evidence based. Your gut can be cuing you to something you should absolutely be paying attention to, or they can be making you uncomfortable out of internal prejudice.

          Couple basics:

          “She just doesn’t seem smart enough, my gut says she isn’t up to the job. ” – you live in fast paced East Coast city and the interviewee has a southern accent. You may not consciously be prejudiced, but your gut might be.

          “IDK, I did not get a good feeling about her energy. She was fine in the interview, and has good qualifications, but I don’t think she can sustain the pace here. ” Interviewee is clinically obese and your gut correlates overweight with low energy without your conscious brain being aware.

          Etc.

          I use my gut to flag me to *things* to consider, but can’t go by overall vague “not a good feeling, pass”

          So that’s something to think about.

          1. Librarian of SHIELD*

            Oh, yes. That’s actually how I intended that. I’m sorry not to have expressed myself more clearly.

            I meant to say that if you’re getting a bad feeling, you shouldn’t try to handwave it away just because you don’t have solid proof that things will go wrong. It’s something to bring up and talk through with the rest of the team and see if anything shakes loose.

            I think what I most regret about my past hiring experience is that I didn’t even mention my bad feeling about the candidate. I didn’t give the rest of the panel a piece of information we could have talked through to come to our best decision.

            1. Wakeens Teapots LTD*

              Perfectly said. I concur. :)

              I think one example might be someone giving off “high maintenance” vibes in an interview. I’ve ignored that “gut” on a couple of occasions, to my peril. O.o Older, wiser me would say, okay I am getting this high maintenance gut feel here, but she seems bright and her qualifications are fine, and other people liked her, what can I do to push for more info here.

              High maintenance, shudder. You hire high maintenance and you are exhausted after the first week. (and no you may NOT have a custom stapler and YES a company juice bar is a great idea however can we wait 6 months before you make perq installation suggestions)

    3. DarthVelma*

      I have been involved in state government hiring for a little over 20 years – and wow I just blew my own mind. The positions I’ve hired for have a serious technical component, so keep that in mind if it makes a difference. Anyway, what I look for:

      1. Specificity and detail – in particular detail in answering experiential questions about how they handled/would handle specific situations or problems, and detail in describing the kinds of analyses they’ve conducted.

      2. Actually answering the question I asked.

      3. Not only do they have the technical knowledge, but can they describe what they know in layman’s terms. That has also been an important component of the jobs I’ve hired for – ability to explain our results to non-technical audiences. I always have at least one non-technical person on interview panels for this reason.

      4. Did they come prepared? There are some questions interviewees should expect in any interview – both general and job specific – but I was always amazed how many people interviewing for high level internal auditor jobs couldn’t answer “what is the purpose of internal audit?”

      5. Do they know anything about my agency? With some folks, you can tell they hit the website. With other folks, it almost even feels like they never read the job description, much less learned anything about what we do. I’m having this problem right now with applicants for a high level data job.

      6. This isn’t really about the interviews, but I still think it is important – how well written is their application. I just finished rejecting interviews with several candidates, all of whom indicated in their applications that they had “great written communications skills”. None of their applications were actually well written.

      7. Finally, also not really about the interviews, but relevant – how did they do on our written exercise. I want to see they have the technical skills to do the data analysis required, but I also want to see their ability to present and explain their process and results. And the higher up the position, the higher my expectations. For lower level positions, I mostly want them to show me they have the basic chops and are teach-able.

      Hope that was at least somewhat helpful.

      1. downtown funk*

        4. Did they come prepared? There are some questions interviewees should expect in any interview – both general and job specific – but I was always amazed how many people interviewing for high level internal auditor jobs couldn’t answer “what is the purpose of internal audit?”

        +1 million to this. We had a candidate once who did not know the most basic thing about our entire field. If we were making teapots, this guy didn’t know what tea was. And didn’t bother to look it up.

        1. DarthVelma*

          You’re welcome.

          I would like to second some of the comments about the importance of “fit” and trying to gauge that as well during the interviews. There is a person in my current office who has the highest emotional intelligence of anyone I’ve ever met. She’s not a technical/data person at all. I often pull her in as my non-technical person on interview panels because I know she’s really good at reading that kind of thing.

          So I guess that’s an additional piece of advice. Think about what you need from you interview team members and make sure you include the right people.

      3. only acting normal*

        2. Actually answering the question I asked.

        Not arguing with this (it’s a good point), but will add: make sure you’re asking the question you want answered unambiguously.
        My last boss (was a pretty good boss) told me about interviewees who didn’t answer his questions as asked, so I asked him what the question was – turned out he was asking a question *in the vicinity* of the answer he wanted, but I would also have answered the way the rejected candidates did. We are an R&D company and attract a lot of autistic/autistic-adjacent people, his lack of precision was accidentally screening them (and possibly others) out.

        1. Susan*

          And as an extension – look not only for people who can answer the question, but those who will answer when they can’t instead of trying to bull-shit it. Of course, this is within reasonable limits – but not always knowing the answers to all questions may be okay.

      4. Free Meerkats*

        I’ll add a 7a here. If there’s a component of the job that can be tested easily, build in time to test it. The ability to review reports and write is important to us, so prior to the interview, the applicants were given a fake typical report from one of our accounts along with the applicable limits and asked to review it and write a violation notice if warranted. The person we ended up hiring caught a violation I didn’t know was there.

        For lab people, we give them a simple solution preparation and serial dilution task and watch them do it. It’s amazing how people with advanced chemistry degrees can muck that up.

    4. Midlife Tattoos*

      I focus a lot on the behavioral aspect. One of the top things on my list: curiosity. I always say I can teach someone a skill, but I can’t teach them how to show up with curiosity. I also look for self-motivated people who are willing to give things a go on their own.

      I’ve learned the hard way that focusing solely on skills can leave some serious gaps in learning how a person works/thinks. I wound up with employees who didn’t get along with others and had to manage them out.

      1. Anastasia Beaverhousen*

        This. I’ve never been involved in hiring, but have been involved in training new hires, and have found that the person’s curiosity and willingness to learn can be more important than anything else. Not to mention that if it’s a fairly low-level job, assessing skills in an interview can be difficult.

        I have one young lady as a trainee whose hiring manager mentioned that she had great computer skills (and indeed, the trainee boasted of her technical skills on her self-eval); but I had to show her how to make a PDF. Multiple times. That said, her approach to the work and attitude have been great, and I have no doubt that by the time I’m finished with her she’ll be a great employee.
        I also recently had a different trainee, who does in fact have the technical skills, but doesn’t seem to have the curiosity. He just doesn’t try, and doesn’t seem to be able to think up a non-standard way to find the information he needs – if it’s not specifically listed on his to-do list of methods to try (or if it is, but he doesn’t know what the terminology means) he just won’t – even if he hasn’t obtained the desired result yet.

        I’m sure this varies by position, but the ability to think through a problem, and the willingness to do so, seems more important than having specific knowledge before you begin the job.

    5. Escapee from Corporate Management*

      I was once told all interviews come down to three basic questions:
      1. Can the person do (or learn the job)?
      2. Can you put this person in front of someone important a customer, the Board, your boss) with no concerns?
      3. You’ll be spending 8+ hours a day with this person. Does that make you feel good or make you want to run away?

      Unless the job is super-technical, focus on the responses that answer questions 2 & 3. Those are the ones that, when done poorly, compel people to write into AAM.

    6. Observer*

      You’ve gotten some good advice. One thing I want to highlight. It is hugely important to find the right fit – but it is equally as important to make sure that “fit” doesn’t actually mean “looks like me / us” or “is of this particular demographic.”

      This can be very tricky as often these are decisions that are quite unconscious. It’s like the HBR study in which Harry was seen as “assertive and a good leader” while Harriette was seen as “abrasive and selfish” for the EXACT SAME BEHAVIOR. (Literally. The study took a case study and changed nothing but the name of the leader and asked participants to rate the person.)

    7. Librarian of SHIELD*

      Be on the lookout for people giving the answers they think you want to hear. For example, if you ask your candidates how they deal when they have coworkers that are hard to get along with, a lot of people are going to answer “Oh, that will never happen. I get along with everyone. I’m a real team player.” They think this is the answer you want, and if you’re new to hiring, you may also think it’s the answer you want. But it’s not. NOBODY gets along with everybody. Even the most easygoing of humans is eventually going to come across a person that will hit all their buttons. You want to hire a person who is giving you honest information about how they’re likely to behave in the workplace, not a person who is giving boilerplate answers because they think that’s what’s most likely to get them the job.

      1. Feds Hiring Feds*

        The corollary to this is DON’T ASK LEADING QUESTIONS! I sat through an interminable number of interviews where my boss would ask things like “If a coworker asks you to do something that seems unethical, would you assume it’s allowed because they’ve worked here longer than you or would you alert your manager?” There are plenty of better phrasings, like “Tell us about a time when you were made aware of a possible unethical action and how you responded…”

        And give people time to think and respond to the question. Don’t jump in two seconds after asking and say, “You know, like a time someone was using office supplies for their birthday party?” Let them think of their own examples. Silence is awkward but fight the urge to fill it.

    8. Frankie*

      Like others mentioned, fit and gut. Fit is really huge and even if someone could get the work done, if they’re a bad fit that will reverberate through the team.

      I always find myself trying to argue myself into wanting to hire someone in case I’m being too critical, so it’s always helpful to remind myself that you don’t HAVE to hire someone. Like, it’s better to go without a position than to hire a bad fit. Don’t bend over backward to fill the position.

      Sometimes charismatic people can hide a lack of knowledge or specific ideas…if you find yourself being impressed by someone, but it’s largely due to, say, presentation skills, composure, etc., try to ask specific questions about the work to tease out whether they really know their stuff.

      Fit, gut.

      1. Argh!*

        Beware of fit and gut, though, because having a hive mind is not necessarily a good thing. That’s usually what “good fit” means. If it means “We have this niche that only someone who is totally different from the rest of us can fill,” then yes, go for good fit.

        Surrounding yourself with carbon copies of yourself isn’t just bad management, it could also be illegal if it results in age, sex, or race discrimination. You don’t have to *intend* to discriminate to be liable if your process results in discrimination.

        1. smoke tree*

          To this point, I think it’s a good idea to take some time to think about what a good personality fit for the job itself actually means–whether that is enthusiasm for learning new things, flexibility to juggle several things at once, keen attention to detail, or what have you. I think focusing on concrete pieces like this will help you to be able to judge whether nebulous feelings of a bad fit are legitimate or based on characteristics that don’t actually matter (and could potentially be discriminatory).

          1. Anonforthis*

            I agree with this. I do think it’s worth assessing personality fit in terms of what you described, NOT “this is someone I want to have beers with/reminds me of a younger version of myself/validates everything I say.”

            Personality fit should be more about working relationships with others. Are they cooperative/collaborative? Problem-solving? Responsible? Fast-paced, if that is an important aspect of the job?

            Like, obviously no one wants to work with a total a-hole, but they don’t have to be your best friend either.

    9. Genny*

      If there’s anything abnormal about the position or your org (i.e. long hours/weird shifts, emotionally taxing, expected long-term TDYS, etc.), ask a question related to that and then see if the candidate gives a thoughtful answer as to how they’d handled the issue. I just interviewed for an inherently emotionally taxing gov job and I really appreciated 1) they acknowledged the stress and 2) were interested in hearing how I handle it/ensuring I could handle it.

    10. Zennish*

      I second (third, fourth?) going with your gut reaction. Remember that candidates will be on the best behavior they can manage, and any crazy ones will be doing everything possible to rein in the crazy for the length of an interview. If something still strikes you as off, it’s probably way off.

      Also, ask questions that show judgment, at least as much as questions that show technical knowledge. (“An angry customer wants X, you know our policy is Y, what do you do and why?” sort of thing)

    11. Argh!*

      Watch out for “tells” that signal they’re not truly interested. One interviewee responded to “Why did you apply for this job” by admitting it was a nice stepping stone before correcting herself. We hired someone who really wanted the job instead, and she worked out very well.

      I work in a very small specialty, and I haven’t seen her name come up in any conference attendees’ lists or announcements about new hires, so I think we made the right choice. I hope she’s having a good career doing something else.

    12. Ralph Wiggum*

      Can’t speak for government interview panels, but here are some techniques I find useful as an interviewer.

      * Whenever the candidate says something that strongly influences you, write down their words as they said them (or as close as you can manage). When reviewing that candidate, you’ll probably be left with general impressions. It’s really good to reference the specific quotes to check or reinforce your impressions.
      * Note your overall impression of the candidate several times throughout the interview. This lets you be introspective about what answers actually affected your opinion and why. It also lets you cull interview questions that aren’t productive in getting a reading on the candidate.
      * Form a specific recommendation (hire / no hire) with supporting points before discussing the interview with anyone else. Otherwise, you’ll be susceptible to being overly swayed by the other interviewers.
      * Unsure means no hire. A bad hire is riskier than missing out on a great candidate.
      * If reviewing a candidate as a group, start with positive points. We always seem to want to talk about the negatives more, which runs the risk of turning the review into a complaining session about something which might not actually be that important.

    13. AdhdAnon*

      I like my question sets for goverment panels to include questions that you can listen to find out how someone *feels* about a big piece of the job. (This is for people with previous experience in the field or type of position – not sure it works in all cases.)

      They way I was taught it (and still do it) is to use a ‘this position will involve a leading a lot of public meetings, please tell us about a time when you conducted a challenging public meeting and how it went’.

      Here we’re listening for 2 things –
      1. Does applicant have real experience with this skill? The person who responds about a time they were on a panel or supported a panelist isn’t as strong as one who talks about facilitating one.

      2. Most importantly, when the applicant talks about it, what language do they use? We were once hiring for a position that would involve organizing records for offsite scan and the applicant in talking about her experience with record systems said that filing was a ‘necessary evil’ and proceeded to talk about a project she was tangentially involved in.

  5. Orphan Brown*

    Does anyone actually have a job that they share with another person? Please tell me all about it! (I’d really love a similar situation m).

    1. Alex*

      I used to! Well, sort of.

      I was an assistant at a school, and I’d worked there a couple of years. They needed an assistant for X number of hours a week, and when I first started, I did all the hours. But then their needs changed, and they needed different hours, and they decided to hire another person. That worked for a while, but then that person decided to leave.

      At the time, my roommate was looking for a job, so they hired her to do the hours I couldn’t do. But since we lived together and did the exact same job, our boss said she didn’t care who came in, as long as one of us was there for all the hours they needed. So, we just worked it out at home, “hey, can you go in today? I’ll do it tomorrow.” kind of thing. It worked out well, because we were both in school as well.

    2. government worker*

      I work in local government and have the exact same job as the other clerks in my department. In other words, on any given day we do one another’s work. It’s pretty awesome — I can do things like take a long vacation and not be buried in work when I get back — but the downside is that it’s hard to distinguish myself as essential.

    3. MeTwoToo*

      I haven’t but I had two assistants who did. I hired a girl in her first year of her masters program. As we entered her second year she had too many schedule conflicts and was thinking of leaving. Instead I interviewed and hired her classmate who was on a slightly different schedule. They both did 20 hrs each and shared an office space. They kept a communication binder so each could keep up with an follow up. Worked great for another year and a half until they graduated and one took another job. They other went back to full time at that point.

    4. OhBehave*

      I did for a few years. The main thing we did was maintain a Google doc that was used to note happenings (comm binder). Since we managed three branches, everyone would know what happened. If we were sharing tasks (us two) such as making calls, we would make sure to note where we stopped.
      I always left my desk clean when I knew she was working. She had her own desk but we had one phone in our office.
      I have no idea what you’re looking for but hope this helps.

    5. CatMintCat*

      It’s fairly common in teaching, especially with teachers returning part time from mat leave. They “share” the class – often one works three days per week, and the other two, and sometimes they alternate so each has a five day fortnight.

      I haven’t done it, but if the pair mesh well, it can work really well for years. If they don’t, it can be a nightmare for all concerned, including the children.

  6. Zaphod Beeblebrox*

    How would you deal with a manager who asks at the beginning of a meeting if you’ve been to the toilet?

      3. CastIrony*

        In my brave persona, I’d ask this. In real life, I’d be silent and internally being weirded out.

        1. The New Wanderer*

          I think silence is a fine response to a weirdly invasive question. Make the person who asks be the one to do all the talking.

    3. voodoo*

      Every meeting? I’d probably bring it up more broadly and convey that you’re capable of being prepared for scheduled timeslots.

      One time thing? I’d just say “I’m ready to get started with the meeting, and know we’re scheduled for X minutes. Thanks” in a polite tone, but also with a touch of “I am not in preschool and you are not my caretaker”

        1. Pay no attention to the man behind the curtain*

          I can think of a few snarky ones though:
          “I’ve been fully potty-trained, thank you, I don’t anticipate any accidents.”
          “No, I’ve decided that it’s more convenient to use adult diapers.”
          “You mean, I’m not allowed to wet myself?!”

              2. Phoenix Wright*

                Just like JK Rowling’s 17th century wizards: I simply relieve myself wherever I stand, and vanish the evidence.

      3. Who Plays Backgammon?*

        Or code for “mom” when you’re about to start a long driving trip…

        My inclination–can’t say I’d have the nerve to do it, but my inclination would be to blink with a bunny-in-the-deadlights stare and say, “Huh?”

    5. 5 month mommy*

      As the person who often runs out of the meeting because I have to pee, my boss saying this would probably be appropriate O_o. If that’s not you, I’d probably follow Allison’s advice of giving your manager the strangest wtf look.

      1. valentine*

        If you’re really rushing and you really do need to go pre-meeting, start blocking off five to ten minutes then for a comfort break.

    7. Seeking Second Childhood*

      Blink. Blink. “By which I presume you expect to go over the scheduled 30 minutes?”
      After that it depends on whether or not I have another deadline pending.

    8. The Man, Becky Lynch*

      Is your manager secretly your mom?

      I would just laugh to be honest because that’s such a parental question, unless you have problems with people constantly in and out to use the restroom? Is it a 1:1 or a large meeting that they’re asking the group so they don’t have interruptions?

    10. LKW*

      Is this a one on one meeting or a situation where everyone in the room has likely be running from meeting to meeting and the manager is offering a “bio-break”?

      Because if it’s the former….whoohee. The latter… such a nice gesture.

      1. I Wrote This in the Bathroom*

        Oh, yikes, I haven’t even thought of it possibly being a 1:1!

        In that case, I’d probably excuse myself to go pee and never come back ;)

      1. Forrest Rhodes*

        This is such a perfect response, Jamie, that I don’t even mind cleaning up the coffee-laugh spray on my screen.

    14. I'm A Little Teapot*

      Any chance said manager is new and previously worked with the 6 and under age group?

    17. Camellia*

      My instinctual replies to these, whether asking or telling: “TMI, dude!” In a reasonably exclamative voice and a good laugh. Then sit down/arrange your materials/do whatever that indicates that you are, um, ready to get down to business.

      They never say (or ask) that stuff twice.

    18. Emilitron*

      Ummm… did you recently have a meeting with this person that was filled with high-potency farts?

    19. KR*

      If she does it once, assume it’s a one off. If she does it a lot, consider whether you’re leaving meetings a lot to use the bathroom and it can reasonably be avoided by taking a bathroom trip before meetings. If you aren’t try “You ask me that a lot, Manager, and I got to say I find it a little funny! I try to take care of everything before meetings get started but please let me know if you think I’m leaving meetings too often please let me know.”

    20. CatMintCat*

      I teach six year olds. I have been known to ask this question of my husband and adult children. They laugh at me, as they should.

  7. voodoo*

    So, yesterday morning an HR-type human got in touch to schedule a 3 hour panel interview (3rd interview for me).

    I got back within the hour with my availability.

    I’m now just biting my nails wondering how long I can wait before getting back in touch to follow up. Monday morning?

    3 hours is a little long for an impromptu dentist appointment, so I’m trying to be a subtle and kind coworker to my current job.

    ugh. I know, just wait it out. just gotta chill. thanks for letting me vent, AAM crew.

    1. Fortitude Jones*

      “an HR-type human” – I like this. I’m stealing it.

      3 hours is a long time – are you able to use a sick day in case it runs over? I worked from home last week when I had my scheduled two and a half hour in-person interview, and then it ran over so that it was actually three and a half hours – if I had been in the office that day and had to come up with an appointment, I totally would have been called out on it.

      1. voodoo*

        Yeah, I’ll take a day if I need to, everyone gets food poisoning, right?

        I’m just waiting on the person to get back to me and wondering what the normal time frame is.

        1. Fortitude Jones*

          Ah, okay. Give it until the end of the day – the HR-type human may be trying to coordinate schedules and all of the panelists may not be around for her to get back to you yet. If you don’t hear anything by end of business today, I think a brief follow-up Monday would be fine.

    2. Seeking Second Childhood*

      I’ve well known for taking impromptu half-day vacations for spring fever, midwinter blues, harvesting the fruit at my motherinlaw’s place, etc. I plan to take full advantage of that when I start looking.

        1. Seeking Second Childhood*

          LOL Literal fruit! My motherinlaw lives on 8 acres. Blackberries, raspberries, peaches, pears, and quince. And then there’s the nuts…

    3. Bee's Knees*

      As an HR-type human myself, although we use recruiters, I’d follow up first thing Monday morning. Or you could send an email on Sunday afternoon/evening so it’s waiting Monday morning. I could go from trying to schedule something like that, and typing out a response, to answering the phone, checking on someone’s pay issue, to getting someone a new hat because theirs got sucked up in the vacuum shaft, to directing people to shipping. Then it’s four hours later, and I still haven’t sent the email.

      1. voodoo*

        Thanks for the permission to pester. Lord knows we all get busy, I just needed a gut check from the community, since I know I’m emotionally overinvested and don’t want to push too soon.

        1. Bee's Knees*

          I mean, if it had been an hour, or even a couple of hours, it might be irritating. But if it’s anything like my job, stuff just gets forgotten. Not maliciously, or even procrastinated, just other stuff came up that needed to take priority. I would probably be glad to have a reminder that, oh yeah, I needed to confirm a time with voodoo.

    4. LadyByTheLake*

      If you mean Monday the 15th, that would be okay. Monday that is the next business day is way too soon.

      1. Zephy*

        I think OP means follow up to confirm the interview time – the interview hasn’t happened yet.

    5. Dragon Egg*

      Good luck! I’m an internal applicant waiting to hear after all the interviews, testing, screening questions, meetings with HR-type humans (love that), detailed thank you notes etc., etc., etc….

      The waiting is the hardest part… and my company loves to have people come for 3-4 hours of interviews… so offering support and I agree, Monday to confirm the date and time would be ideal if you haven’t heard by then.

    6. Anonforthis*

      I literally had this exact problem 2 weeks ago. They didn’t confirm the interview until the day before, so I called in sick.

  8. New Job So Much Better*

    For you younger workers….. Is it common to avoid eye contact or smiling/nodding when passing older or other younger coworkers in hallways? In the kitchen? I notice my coworkers aged 30-ish and younger are super friendly with work contact (smilies on emails, very helpful replies) but they stare at their shoes in the hallway like they don’t know you. Is that just weird to my office? We’re in a large cube farm.

    1. Murphy*

      I have social anxiety and I do this. I’m trying to get better. I don’t know if it’s “normal” for others, but it’s normal for me.

      1. Insignificant*

        I have social anxiety too. If I notice someone I know then I’ll wave to them, smile and say hello in the hall, and may even stop to chat with them. I often avert my eyes in the hallway to avoid being awkward with strangers and may accidentally ignore someone I know. (Having random people smile at me or say hello makes me worry that I’m supposed to know them, and the interaction just seems unnecessary. Sometimes being polite can turn into a hassle, such as when super friendly extroverts or guys can take politeness the wrong way.)

        1. Busy*

          Yeah. You’re last part? Dead on. I have some social anxiety. I generally avert eyes at strangers to avoid conversations, because while I can not be awkward normally, points of time where I am guaranteed to become That Awkward Person is trying to extricate myself from random strangers I do not want to engage with at all.

          And sometimes, I just want to get some water. I left my desk to have a mental break, and I do not want to engage.

          1. Insignificant*

            I like your last point. When I’m walking around at work I generally have a very specific task in mind (go get some water, go to the bathroom, go to a meeting, get some records, ask someone a question, etc.). I’m not wanting to engage in any way with the 5 or 10 people I pass on my way to my destination and back to my desk every time I get up. That would be exhausting.

            1. Combinatorialist*

              Smiling at the person as you walk by is exhausting? I totally get not wanting to have a conversation but even though I’m extremely introverted, I do the smile and nod thing almost automatically and it doesn’t even process as “engaging”

              1. Librarian of SHIELD*

                It’s not necessarily the “smiling at a person” that makes it exhausting. It’s the “this is the third time I’ve seen Bob in the halls today, were my first two greetings enough? Should I say something? Is he going to say something? Do I smile and wave? What if I wave and he’s not even looking? Can I pass that off as something that feels less weird? What’s the correct protocol in this situation?” of it all that makes it exhausting.

                1. Insignificant*

                  ^^^This!!! I have social anxiety so I tend to overthink even little interactions. Social interactions come somewhat easily with people I know well and am comfortable with, but with people I only know in passing or don’t know at all it gets tiring quickly. Maybe it’d be easier in a small office, but I’ve only ever worked at companies that have a couple hundred employees.

    2. WellRed*

      I don’t think it’s normal in an office, generally, but I have encountered this awkwardness with many early 20s.

    3. Small but Fierce*

      I’m in my 20s and I definitely look at the floor when I walk for some reason. That said, if I’m friendly with a coworker, I will acknowledge them if I pass them in the hallway. If we’re not particularly close, I may not acknowledge depending on the seniority of the team member. It’s definitely a thing for me, but I’m fairly socially awkward.

    4. Miss Fisher*

      I think partly it is the younger thing. With all the new tech, relationships are being built more online, so younger people are used to dealing with people over email etc and the actual face to face contact is going away.

        1. EinJungerLudendorff*

          Seconded.
          Tech actually helps me to maintain face-to-face contact, because it helps me avoid my social anxiety.

          It’s also much easier to keep in contact with people, especially when they don’t live nearby, or we don’t normally run across each other in our day to day lives.

    5. Alianora*

      I usually nod or say hello to my coworkers. Some of my coworkers don’t, but older people are just as likely to do it as younger people.

    6. Anon For This One*

      My workplace has oddly dark hallways due to the building design. I have terrible eyesight in dim light and at a distance (but can’t wear glasses at a computer, so I don’t wear them during the day at work).
      I probably seem like I avoid smiling and eye contact in the hallway – but that’s because I literally can’t tell who it is until they are just a few feet from me. It’s super weird and awkward but I’ve just accepted that.

      1. elemenohp*

        Yeah, I think workplace design can have a big impact on this. My workplace also has very long, dim, narrow hallways full of blind corners and people are always literally running into one another. It makes saying hello incredibly awkward.

        It’s also a frequency issue. I see the same people half a dozen times a day. It becomes really time consuming to stop and say hello to everyone, every time I see them.

    7. The Man, Becky Lynch*

      I’ve had to force myself to make eye contact as I get older, I was certainly shy and quick to leave rooms a few years ago if others were around. A lot of it may be being new to the workplace or feeling out of place, they may think they’re getting “caught” out of their desk or something irrational/silly.

      It’s an anxiety reflex. It’s also why a lot of people hate using the phone. It’s not age related.

    8. Squeeble*

      My experience is that when I’m walking down a long hallway and someone is walking toward me, I don’t really know where to look. I don’t want to just stare at them the whole time–that would be uncomfortable for both of us. So yeah, I look down a lot but eventually look up and smile at them before we pass each other. Maybe that’s part of it?

    9. CheeryO*

      Hm, at my workplace, the 25-35ish set is generally friendly and will say hello/how are ya but will not chit chat the way that the older set does. We have a lot of interns, though, and I’ve noticed that many of them don’t say hello or make eye contact. I think it’s just that they don’t feel completely comfortable and don’t have the work experience to be able to fake it.

      2. Gloucesterina*

        The young folks may also be intentionally cultivating a work-focused persona. At least that was the case for me in my 20s. Now, per CheeryO’s observation, I better understand how (in many workplaces) it’s OK to interject a little small talk and still be taken seriously.

    10. I Wrote This in the Bathroom*

      I’m in IT. I am also older. I don’t typically make eye contact in the hallways. I’ll say hello with a vague smile and look to the side. I figure most of my coworkers don’t want eye contact, so I’m doing them a favor by not forcing any. Unless it is someone I’m friendly with, or someone I know to be more social than the average, then I’ll greet them like I normally would a friend. But this is an interesting question and I now want to maybe observe my coworkers in hallways for a while to see what they do when they meet me in a hallway.

      1. BelatedReply*

        Also IT, but trying to change careers at 30.

        In my experience, people in the hallways only ever want something from me. “How’s my printer ticket coming along?”, “am I getting a replacement laptop yet?”, “did I get approved for a second monitor?”, and so on. No one ever really asks me how I’m doing or understands I’m likely busy or on my way to something else (from desperately needing to use the bathroom, or rushing a replacement cable up to a CEO’s office) – even if they start off with a “how’s it going” they quickly jump into a computer issue that needs to be submitted via ticket system anyway, and get pissy if I tell them to please use this system instead. There’s no winning.

        So it’s a balance of polite eye contact and…completely avoiding eye contact, depending. All that besides the long hallways and mild social anxiety discussed elsewhere.

        Funny part is I’m trying to maybe get a similar “help everyone” job but outside of tech, so maybe I just like the awkward hallway pressure.

    11. The Ginger Ginger*

      OMG, I HATE making eye contact in the hallways. Do I wave? Do I say hi? Even if I just saw you an hour ago in that meeting and said hello when I got in this morning? Do we have to stop and talk now? Am I rude if I do none of these things? Weird if I do all of them???

      I DON’T KNOW!!!! LOOK HOW PRETTY THE CARPET/WALLS/WINDOWS ARE INSTEAD OF CONFUSING HUMAN CONTACT

      1. Oxford Comma*

        I just make eye contact, slightly nod my head, smile, and move on, all without really stopping.

        I have had people refuse to look at me in hallways, and while I understand that might be the result of social anxiety, it always makes me feel like they snubbed me.

        1. New Job So Much Better*

          I agree, Oxford Comma, but I’m trying to not feel snubbed after reading these comments.

        2. The New Wanderer*

          It could just be a bad guess on the part of the person you passed. I try to make eye contact and smile/nod if I think the person I’m going to pass is going to do that too, and I try to avoid it if I think they’re going to avoid it. Usually what happens is the other person is making that same calculation and then both of us avoid eye contact, or both of us make brief eye contact. The awkward bit is if one or the other guesses incorrectly, but it’s only a second of awkwardness and then it’s over.

          1. Oxford Comma*

            I’ve thought about this a lot because this comes up a lot on this blog and people have made some great points about how they feel awkward or anxious.

            But for my part I think what happens is that once in a while the person doesn’t acknowledge you, I brush it off. They’re tired. They’re in their own heads. Whatever. But there are certain people who never make the eye contact and after a while it starts to feel hostile. Particularly when you’re in a shared staff space like the lunchroom or mail room and they can’t even look at you.

        3. MinotJ*

          This is a revelation to me! I also feel like I’m doing my coworkers a favor by not making eye contact. The whole golden rule thing – I hate the forced hello so much that I assume they must also hate it, and I’m treating them as we would both like to be treated. I never considered that somebody who I barely know from another department might feel snubbed because I didn’t say hello. I’m in my mid-40’s, so it’s not just a young person thing.

    12. LQ*

      I’m tired. I spend all day in meetings fighting to make an appropriate level of eye contact and be properly professional and jovial and upbeat and soothing everyone’s feelings and redocumenting the documents I already documented and I’m going to be here late, when it’s like a creepy well lit horror movie creepy and I haven’t had a day off in months. Let me stare at my shoes occasionally. I try very hard to smile at everyone, but me not smiling at you doesn’t mean I hate you, it doesn’t mean I’m not willing to help, it doesn’t mean I’m not professional or friendly. It just means I’m thinking about something else for a minute and this is how my face is and I’m not currently exerting the energy to make it something else.

    13. Librarian of SHIELD*

      Walking past coworkers in the workplace is super awkward for me. The first time I say hi. But I’m going to pass by this person seven more times before the work day is over. Do I say something every time? Do I not? Am I weird if I don’t acknowledge them every time? Am I even weirder if I do? It’s a hotbed of anxiety.

    14. BlueDijon*

      For me, walking to/from time is often my only brain shut-down time, so I’m completely zoning out and only focusing on getting to where I’m going, so it might be that. I know that at least 3 times my brain only registered that someone I knew was doing the half wave when they’re not sure if they see you thing after I was already past the person – it’s not ideal, probably, but also being “on” all the time does require some shut down/restart time, in my experience.

    15. CastIrony*

      I say hello and ask work questions or talk about it, but because I am both socially anxious and never learned anything having to do with society, I found out that I really hate it when people talk to me for longer than a minute or two because I feel like I have to be efficient (I was once told I was working too slowly.), and am thus wasting time. It’s not that I don’t like you, I truly do, it’s just that we don’t have much in common other than the work questions.

    16. ChimericalOne*

      I’m early 30’s. Social anxiety + Asperger’s, so I’m not a terrribly typical case, but I do think younger folks are more likely to be comfortable with over-tech interactions & uncomfortable with face-to-face ones. I use my phone as a crutch to avoid staring at my shoes or the carpet — I’d rather folks think I was reading my email / an important text than just being antisocial, but I also *really* don’t want to socialize in a “in passing” kind of way (the hardest way, for many of us!)

      1. CastIrony*

        This is a lot like me! I like to be able to think about my reply, and text and e-mail are the best way for me.

    17. Existentialista*

      I completely have this issue with a very smart and capable employee on my team. He is great on the phone or text, but in meetings scowls and looks down like he’s angry at everyone, and walks through the halls scowling and avoiding eye contact.
      My boss has made me work with him to appear more engaged in meetings, as a leadership skill that he needs to learn, but I’m torn about whether to raise the hallway behavior, since it’s not really part of his job, but still noticeable – people in other departments have commented to me about it.

      1. Insignificant*

        If people are commenting on it I think it’d be kind to say something. Being perceived as “friendly” or “nice” is important to being able to get work done sometimes, so it is indirectly related to his job.

      2. EinJungerLudendorff*

        What insignificant said, but I also think scowling constantly is a bit more serious than not making social contact in the hallway.

        Short moments of awkwardness can be worked around if you have even a moderately functional relationship.

        But if you look like you’re always angry at everyone around you, then you constantly make people uncomfortable, and make them not want to work withyou. That causes real problems for the whole workplace, which means it needs to be addressed.

        And I assume he doesn’t actually want to be feared by the whole workplace.

        1. Anonforthis*

          Idk – I’m one of those people with a “resting bitch face”, aka my neutral expression looks contemptuous/irritated for some reason. It may not hurt to point it out if people are seriously freaked out by it, but it will also likely make them very self-conscious.

          1. Insignificant*

            I have resting bitch face too. If someone told me everyone thought I looked angry, I would be horribly, terribly self-conscious about it. I’d be glad to know though. I don’t think you can really change your resting face, but maybe he can try to start acknowledging just the people he works with when he’s walking around or be extra friendly when he’s talking with them at meetings to make up for the scowling.

      3. Who Plays Backgammon?*

        Is he actually scowling, or could he be squinting? Might sound Pollyanna-ish, but sometimes vision problems begin small and sneak up on you.

    18. Penguin*

      30-something here. I look down when I walk; it’s a regional/cultural thing. I grew up in New England and it’s just… a thing that’s done there.

    19. copier queen*

      I’m 34, and I’ve always smiled or said hello to people in the hallways – even back in college. It seemed more awkward to avoid acknowledging them. Not sure if this is a Southern thing or what. We will say hello or smile to everyone we pass on the street, which I hear isn’t done everywhere. Of course, it could be genetic – my mother will literally say hello or wave to someone halfway across a parking lot.

    21. Anonforthis*

      I do this due to shyness/social anxiety. My shyness tends to be more around older people for some reason – probably because I still perceive them as impromptu authority figures (even if in an organizational setting, they’re not even if they are in senior roles.)

      From my understanding, this isn’t necessarily a generational thing or even age thing – more outgoing people than me have no problem with eye contact.

      1. Anonforthis*

        OOPS I just reread your question and realize I misinterpreted it! I was originally talking about not making direct eye contact during conversations.

        That being said, when I pass people in the hallway, I give them a quick smile and then look down. Idk why I do this, but it is the norm where I work. People aren’t very small-talk around here, and I also work in a cube farm. I work in a city in Northeast US so maybe that’s why?

    22. Dramatic Squirrel*

      Former army reservist and the rule was that you salute an officer the first time you see them in a day and not again. I still apply that to people. I will greet them if I know them the fist time and after that I might give a nod when I bump into them again. I generally give a small smile or nod to anybody as I am a HR type human and people need to know you are approachable.

    23. MissDisplaced*

      Well, I do that and I’m not younger. Some of it is just social introvert and some is just I’m busy and need to get somewhere. But I do try to do a sort of head bob to acknowledge I’ve seen them.

  9. Anon Nom Nom Nom*

    TL;DR: How do I respond when I hear accusations of sexual harassment that I doubt?

    About 10 years ago, “Joe” was the executive director of a nonprofit organization where I volunteer today. He was there for about a year, and has since moved on to work in the private sector. We met about 8 years ago, after he went through a messy divorce and while he was battling a substance addiction, and we dated on and off for 2 years. Now he’s married again and is raising a family. We have continued to stay in touch and see each other socially.

    Recently, I started volunteering at the organization. I was told that he was asked to leave because he had been sexually harassing a staff member. I want to believe survivors, let me be perfectly clear — but the accusation doesn’t ring true to me. He was always perfectly respectful to me. I knew him socially for a few months before we dated, and I have never, ever seen him act inappropriately or creepily with any woman. I was his intimate partner for a while and got to know him very, very well. I can confidently say that sexual harassment is just not in his character. How do I respond to this without (a) dismissing the story, or (b) disclosing his personal history? That is, if I say, “Wow, that doesn’t sound like Joe at all,” that’s dismissive and basically accuses the speaker of lying. If I say, “Oh, well you know his marriage was breaking down at the time and he had a cocaine problem,” then I’m sharing information that is not mine to share (as well as tacitly acknowledging the accusation and excusing the behavior he’s accused of).

    Thanks for any suggestions on what to say if/when this comes up again.

    1. Colette*

      I’d say nothing. As well as you know him, you don’t know what happened, and this is not your battle to fight.

        1. valentine*

          the accusation doesn’t ring true to me
          You don’t get a vote. Please don’t serve on a relevant jury. (I know this isn’t about Biden and I don’t know what he’s been doing to women, but he seems a good example of this, what with random people referring to him as Uncle Joe.)

          He was always perfectly respectful to me.
          Plenty of abusers cultivate protectors and defenders by being on their best behavior, which also serves to gaslight their targets.

          I have never, ever seen him act inappropriately or creepily with any woman.
          Not your call. Let’s say the Joe in question is a Hugger. That’s gross. I’m sure some people love it and think he’s the greatest person ever to person and they feel warm and fuzzy and he really makes their day with a big ol’ (possibly rocking) bear hug. If you’re one of those people, would you see the difference between people who just enjoy hugs and practice informed consent versus Huggers, who are oppressive, inappropriate, and flat-out assaulting people? (See: the OP who didn’t tell her coworker to stop touching/hugging/rubbing the kids they worked with and failed those kids by not reporting her.)

          I can confidently say that sexual harassment is just not in his character.
          How would you even judge this? I really hate it when people, especially cops, say, “(S)he isn’t a killer.” This is behavior, not character. (See: Jay Smooth’s “You stole my wallet” about how to coddle racists.)

          How do I respond to this
          As though you believe it. Because the only harm is in what you’re doing and want to do now, which is to champion Joe. You can say, “Why that’s awful,” “Thank goodness they got rid of him,” or “Please, let’s talk about literally anything else,” or leave for a place not associated with Joe.

          If I say, “Oh, well you know his marriage was breaking down at the time and he had a cocaine problem,” then I’m […] excusing the behavior[.]
          To me, this is actually confirming the behavior. Some people use major stressors as excuses to harm.

          2. EinJungerLudendorff*

            *Throws thumbs ups at this comment*

            Everything Valentine said! This is how sexual abusers get away with their vile behaviour.
            And remember, most abuses are never reported, and accusations are almost always true.

            There is just such a massive social cost to publicly accusing someone of secual harrassment, especially if the abuser was a powerful, well-liked man, and the victim was a little-known woman.

            It would take a very reckless person to make such an accusation lightly, and that would almost certainly be struck down by internal investigations.

            TL:DR
            If a powerful, popular man was accused and fired, he probably did it.

          1. Dramatic Squirrel*

            Oops, that appeared in the wrong place, I was referring to Ingall’s post ‘Not your circus, not your monkeys’

      2. MsM*

        +1. “Well, he never did it around me” only means that he never did it around you. At most, I would say that you’re surprised and sad to hear that, since you’ve always thought well of him, and then change the subject.

      3. Anonymous Educator*

        Yes. These things do not make the accusation any less credible, nor do they exonerate him.

        He was always perfectly respectful to me.
        I have never, ever seen him act inappropriately or creepily with any woman.

        1. Observer*

          Actually, this does make a difference. Totally not proof, but the guy who knows how to be respectful to women is less likely to be a harasser than the person who is not consistently respectful around women.

          Which is to say that it’s perfectly legitimate for doubt the accusation, though not to dismiss it.

          1. Anonymous Educator*

            I’m going to actually you back, though, and say it doesn’t make a difference. And there are some harassers who wear their disrespect for women on their sleeves, and others who are very good at concealing it. Check out Hugo Schwyzer or Kyle Payne, for example.

            1. been there, done that*

              I ran into this exact situation–a serial harasser who was completely and totally respectful to women who were his peers or above him in the office hierarchy. Many women had the same reaction–“he’s never done this to/around me.”

              Over a very short period of time it became clear that the one or two incidents that had been reported were the tip of an iceberg.

              Other men began to offer the “he’s socially awkward” defense. To which my reaction was, well, if he’s socially awkward, why isn’t he socially awkward with everyone? Why is he only inappropriate with women who are younger or junior to him?

              I can, to this day, say that I he never harassed me and never harassed anyone in my presence. But he most definitely harassed other people.

              The fact that he knew who not to harass and when he had to be on his best behavior was pretty damning in the end. If he could make those distinctions, this wasn’t social awkwardness; it was predatory behavior.

              1. EinJungerLudendorff*

                Even if it was awkwardness, that only runs until the first time someone rejected him, confronted him, or made it otherwise blatantly obvious his behaviour was harmful.

                After that, he knew what he did and didn’t care, one way or the other.

          2. deesse877*

            Yeah, no. Your analysis relies on the assumption that harassment indicates a total inability to play by the rules. That’s incorrect. What it is, really, is a way to break the rules and get away with it–and targeting only one person while being great with everyone else is a great way to get away with abuse.

            Harasses aren’t clumsy or stupid or broken. They like hurting people.

          3. serenity*

            The thing is 1) you actually don’t know for sure the totality of any one person’s history with women, and 2) this is ridiculous because most high-profile harassers don’t indiscriminately target everyone.

            Thinking you know, for sure, someone’s true character and their sexual history is a fool’s errand. For one example, NY’s attorney general Eric Schneiderman had a history of publically championing women’s causes while assaulting and denigrating a string of women in his private life.

    2. 5 month mommy*

      Are you being asked a question? It doesn’t sound like you need to respond at all.

    3. Overeducated*

      I wouldn’t say anything. This is very old history. Why do you feel the need to say something about it, rather than just making a concerned “oh dear” type noise and not talking about Joe any further?

    4. Friday*

      That’s a hard one. If Joe is still your friend, why don’t you ask him about it? Listen carefully to his response both for what he says about it and what he doesn’t say about it.

      1. Observer*

        Why would she do this? While it’s possible that she might get some information out of this conversation, odds are not good. And what exactly would this accomplish?

        I agree with everyone who says that she simply doesn’t need to respond.

    5. Workerbee*

      Oof, I appreciate the difficulty in all this, and so I mean this very respectfully to you and your experiences with him:

      I think you should just stay out of it.

      People are multi-faceted. Someone who behaves like an angel to one person can be a total **** to another. And some people who behave like angels can know exactly the right things to say and the right face to present when they’ve got somebody in their thrall.

      Source: Me, who had a “but he was great to me!” non-sexual, close relationship with a coworker, only to find out after he left that he was a complete ***hole to everybody else…and actually had been to me, only I couldn’t see it at the time at all. Suddenly, I could. All the warning signs, all the behaviors I’d waved off, everything. Ugh.

      I’m not trying to put my experience on yours, just trying to frame it in a way that may only make sense when you’re not within that person’s sphere anymore.

      1. Workerbee*

        (After posting, I realized this may be a little too much projecting on my part; apologies!)

      2. MechanicalPencil*

        Exactly this. I have personally experienced the flipside of this. Someone who was a model coworker and friend to everyone else was harassing me. It was a long, hard battle to be taken seriously enough for anything to be done about it. And I’m now dealing with the “oh well that doesn’t sound like Wakeen at all. Are you sure?” comments. Quite frankly, it’s bananas that my experience is being discounted because someone else didn’t see that facet of Wakeen.

        1. boo bot*

          Yes, and it’s worth noting that this dynamic is not an accident. People who harass others are often careful only to show their harassing side to the people they want to harass, while maintaining the image of someone who “would never do such a thing” to everyone else, thus allowing them to continue harassing with impunity.

          1. Wishing You Well*

            This is correct. Harassers carefully choose their victims, the place and the time. It’s predatory behavior and predators aren’t stupid.
            On the original question, stay neutral.

      3. Insignificant*

        I was thinking about the “People are multi-faceted. Someone who behaves like an angel to one person can be a total **** to another” thing too. An older guy (more than double my age) that I worked with for a few years during high school seemed absolutely polite, kind and respectful, especially to women. I moved on but kept in contact with him since we’d become good friends and we chatted every day over instant messenger. When he got a new job where he had another teenage coworker, he started telling me sex fantasies of her and he started talking about female child actors in sexual terms. Seriously creeped me out and made me wonder if he’d viewed me the same way. I cut off contact. Never would have expected he was like that if I hadn’t experienced it myself.

      4. smoke tree*

        I think many people like to believe that abusers of various stripes are out of control, socially inept, at the whim of their emotions and so on. Maybe that makes it easier to justify their actions or something. In reality, many abusers are very socially adept and perfectly capable of being respectful, polite and charming when it benefits them.

        It can be incredibly difficult to reconcile what you know of a person with evidence of how they’ve mistreated others (I’ve been there, but in a lower-stakes situation) but I would advise everyone to try to reserve their judgment as much as possible. In cases like this, your intimate knowledge of the person doesn’t necessarily give you any substantive information and can seriously affect your judgment.

    6. Seeking Second Childhood*

      I would also say nothing. I have to point out that drug use can change people’s personality. He may have been acting differently at his office than he did when you knew him.

    7. a tester, not a developer*

      If ‘he was always wonderful to me’ was a valid indicator of character, there would never be any serial killers/rapists/armed robbers that were happily married or pillars of their community at the same time that they were committing horrible crimes.

      If this does come up again, you may want to mention that you see Joe socially, so that the person who was harassed can decide how to interact with you accordingly.

      1. EinJungerLudendorff*

        Yeah. Remember all the times someone murdered a dozen people, and all their neighbours go “he was always so nice, i never would have suspected him”?

        Yeah, murderers aren’t the only ones who do that.

      2. ..Kat..*

        Ted Bundy was extremely kind and courteous to Ann Rule. He would walk her to her car after they had worked a shift for the crisis center to prevent her from being assaulted by the serial killer who was in the area – he was the serial killer.

    8. NonnyNon*

      Substance abuse can cause inhibitions to be lower and people to say and do things they normally wouldn’t, so I wouldn’t assume you know him as well as you thought you did.
      Serial killers fool families and theur communities all the time.

    9. Jessica*

      A nonprofit asked their executive director to resign because he had been sexually harassing a staff member? That seems like a pretty unusual occurrence to me and not something that would have just happened due to rumors. My guess is that it’s your perception of Joe that isn’t quite in line with reality, not the sexual harassment accusations. But if you really want to try to square the two things, remember that this happened two years before you met Joe; perhaps he learned from his mistakes and changed.
      In response to your question: You don’t need to say anything.

    10. OhNo*

      The safest bet is to avoid mentioning Joe at all. If comments are called for (which they may not be – you don’t have to have a comment on every topic of conversation that comes up if you’d rather not), focus on the victim.

      “Wow, that sounds like a terrible situation.”

      “I can’t even imagine having to deal with that kind of thing at work.”

      “That must have been a rough time for Jane – I hope she’s more comfortable at work now.”

      Basically, pretend that they are saying these things about someone you’ve never heard of before. That removes the personal and emotional connection to the situation, and will help you respond with empathy for the victim.

      1. designbot*

        This. Something to the effect of, wow how awful, is your safest bet. You aren’t choosing sides, you aren’t getting involved deeper, you’re acknowledging that what they describe sounds horrible. You don’t have the information for anything more.

      2. Insignificant*

        “Basically, pretend that they are saying these things about someone you’ve never heard of before.”

        That’s a really good idea. Unless the OP is leaving something out, it sounds like no one would even be aware that she knew him let alone that she dated him. They don’t need to know that she knew him at all.

    11. Brogrammer*

      You weren’t there, you don’t know what happened. Harassers don’t behave inappropriately with everyone and they’re careful to not get caught.

    12. Traveling Teacher*

      “Oh, well you know his marriage was breaking down at the time and he had a cocaine problem”

      I think you have your answer right there. High people do awful things that are definitely”out of character.”

      And, do consider that none of us really knows what other humans are capable of. If you need to believe that he didn’t do those things to preserve the image of the person you “know” and dated, that’s fine. That doesn’t mean that the victim is lying, and it also doesn’t mean that it’s your fault that you didn’t know. Many perpetrators are experts at hiding who they really are from others.

      It’s also encouraging that you want to evaluate the conflict between your perspective on this man’s character with what you believe to be right (believing the victim).

      I agree with other commentators–no need to reply, only to listen.

      (Coming at this from the perspective of a person who was also told “he would never do that” by a perpetrator’s friends when, in fact, he most certainly did.)

    13. Countess Boochie Flagrante*

      Keep in mind that “I never saw him act like this” is not a very strong argument against the statement “He acted like this with me.”

      Many people are highly adept at presenting different faces at different times — and more to the point, if he was going through a divorce and struggling with substance addiction at the time the actions would have taken place… that’s kind of an argument in favor of him being a very different Joe than the Joe you know.

      It’s a little like saying “I’ve never seen it snow in Georgia” and expecting that to be a counter to someone saying “Hey, it snowed in Atlanta yesterday.”

    14. Temperance*

      So the man who sexually harassed me when I was in college didn’t harass anyone else. He made sexual comments to me and only to me. It meant that, when I tested the waters by starting to bring it up with someone, I was shut down because Frank is such a nice guy, would NEVER do that, loves his wife, etc. I can assure you that he used his management position to find my phone number and call me at home, so no one would believe me.

      1. Parenthetically*

        Yep. It’s recently come to light that a former prof at my university preyed on, groomed, sexually assaulted, and then “carried on an affair” with a student of his for many years. He was married, respected in his field, and had never done this to/with anyone else. She was his only target, ever. No one suspected anything until she finally brought evidence to his bosses (who, thankfully, terminated his employment immediately).

        It doesn’t have to happen to multiple people for the guy to qualify as a real sexual predator.

      2. SignalLost*

        Yep. My brother was in the same class with Mary Kay Letourneau as Vili Fualaau, thebstudent she assaulted and continued to assault. Just because she didn’t act that way with my brother doesn’t mean she didn’t assault Fualaau. (Locally famous thing here, probably, but you get the gist.)

        1. Temperance*

          Holy crap. That has to be such a mind fudge.

          FWIW, I live across the country, and am very familiar with the case. I’m glad she didn’t prey on your brother.

          As an aside, they’re apparently separating for Vili can go into the MJ business.

    15. otherOther*

      There is literally no possible way you can know that a certain behavior was out of character. You can’t prove a negative on this one. People who do this usually do their best to cultivate a reputation such that anyone who they are not targeting would come to the same conclusion you have. His respect for you does not make it impossible for him to treat someone else horribly.

      That’s not to say that you personally have to believe it. However, you have absolutely no standing to say “Oh he would NEVER have done that.” The best response in that case is no response– don’t justify/explain or otherwise give details about his life either. If he wants to “clear” his name by providing those details, he’s perfectly capable of doing so himself.

    16. Yorick*

      I’d avoid talking about it. But if people asked me about what I knew, I might say something like “I’ve always known him to be perfectly respectful (if that’s true), but of course I don’t know what he’s like all the time/with other people/whatever.”

    17. LKW*

      You know him but you don’t know if this was real or not. If asked, you certainly can say “I have known Joe for a long time and that sounds out of character.” But you don’t know what happened.

    18. The Man, Becky Lynch*

      Say nothing.

      Just because someone doesn’t harass you or abuse you doesn’t mean they cannot do it to others. Your threshold may be higher than others as well, that’s what I’ve learned. I’ve learned that jokes/comments that do nothing but make me shrug or roll my eyes or simply ignore are huge issues for others and therefore I get why someone brings them up and pushes for the change.

      You have to remove yourself from the equation.

      This happens with abusers often. Everyone swears they’re the sweetest kindest nicest guy in the world he’d never ever hit his wife. You just don’t know him inside and out, despite a former intimate relationship.

      Distance yourself from the conversation. Don’t downplay or excuse.

    19. MicrobioChic*

      I agree with the general advice here.

      I had a professor in undergrad. Great guy, advisor to a club I was heavily involved with, never inappropriate to me or any women I knew.

      Several years ago, I heard that he had been accused of sexual harassment. My first reaction was to disbelieve it, think that the person misinterpreted it, etc. Friend would never do that! He’s a great guy! But guess what, it did actually happen, and he did do it. He admitted to it and lost his job over it.

      So coming from someone who has been in a situation similar to yours, you never know people as well as you think you do. Just because something is out of character for the person as you know them doesn’t mean it didn’t happen.

    20. Nicki Name*

      If he never harassed anyone while you were around, that means he didn’t think he could get away with it while you were around. Take that for the compliment that it is. If you feel pressed to say something, how about, “Wow, I never knew about that side of him. I’m so sorry for (victim).”

    21. Dragoning*

      You say nothing.

      No one asked you.

      You don’t know what happened with this other person.

      You know nothing, you say nothing.

    22. I Wrote This in the Bathroom*

      Having seen the creepy ish some of my senior-level male coworkers have done to other people at work (sometimes including myself, other times not) and gotten away with it, I’d say “he was asked to leave because he had been sexually harassing a staff member”, while he was an executive director no less, is an indicator that something bad did happen. I know this is a lot to process about someone one used to date and be emotionally close with. I second everyone’s advice to stay well out of it.

    23. anon for this one*

      You don’t know how he acts around other people.

      Personal example: a guy in my friend group tried to rape me. When I brought it up, I had some female friends say that it didn’t sound like him before, that he never acted that way towards them, or that my rape accusation “didn’t ring true”. One of them said “well, he’s a lonely and insecure guy, and worries about never getting married”, as if that justified his actions. It’s a really horrible thing to have people insist that someone couldn’t have tried to rape me because they didn’t think he was capable of it or because they had never seen him treat women poorly.

      You can’t genuinely say, “I can confidently say that sexual harassment is just not in his character” about anyone. Because anyone is capable of this. Doubling down on the fact that you don’t believe he’s capable of such a thing because you never saw it does invalidate the people he may have harassed.

      Honestly, don’t say anything. If you said either of your two suggested responses, I’d think less of you because that type of language is what lets men get away with bad behavior. Everyone is capable of doing bad things.

    24. Observer*

      It’s not clear why you need to respond at all. But, if you do have to respond this “ “Oh, well you know his marriage was breaking down at the time and he had a cocaine problem,” is something you should ABSOLUTELY not say. Because beyond acknowledging guilt you ARE excusing the behavior. That’s just wildly out of line.

      I understand why you doubt the allegations – you’ve seen his behavior in a lot of circumstances that do give you some insight. On the other hand, this happened before you really knew him. So, a lot could have changed. And if he was going through the breakdown of his marriage and was abusing drugs at the time, it’s far more likely that he did something that would be very out of character for him now. This is especially true of behavior that involves major boundary crossing, as drug use absolutely lowers people’s inhibitions.

      Before anyone jumps at me, I’m not claiming that all drug users are harassers, nor that not using drugs “proves” that someone is not a harasser.

    25. EmKay*

      “I can confidently say that sexual harassment is just not in his character.”

      Don’t be so confident.

    27. quirkypants*

      Honestly, I will echo all the above feedback.

      Past behaviour and treating one person with respect, doesn’t mean he’ll never do anything terrible ever.

      You don’t get to determine what even constitutes sexual harassment. I had a boss who sometimes rubbed my back and touched my thigh, he gave extra long hugs (even when I tried to avoid hugging), and he even tried to talk to me about what I found attractive in a mate a few times when were at social events with other colleagues. I HATED it. It made me uncomfortable. I wouldn’t have called it sexual harassment but when I told one friend, she said FOR SURE it was sexual harassment. Meanwhile, on the flipside, I worked with another woman I saw him act this way around and she seemed to LOVE the attention. And one more flipside, there were a couple people I told about this later and they were SHOCKED he had ever acted that way.

      Sometimes you think you know people and you really don’t.

      1. quirkypants*

        All to say, if it comes up I wouldn’t say anything at all.

        If someone directly asks you what you think, I would consider staying out of it and just say, “I would rather not speculate on what happened” or “I think I’d like to respect the privacy of all the parties involved and not gossip/talk/speculate about something like this!”

    28. only acting normal*

      You knew him socially for a few months, then you dated and were intimate partners. This suggests that you welcomed/were receptive when he flirted/made overtures. What if you *hadn’t* been interested?
      The person who was harassed may have experienced the same initial flirting and rejected Joe, since that was when you ‘accepted’ you didn’t have the same relationship path from that point on. Maybe he kept pursuing them despite their disinterest; keep that up long enough and it crosses into harassment quickly.

      2. The Man, Becky Lynch*

        Thank you, this was exactly what I wanted to say but totally couldn’t figure out the words.

    29. Legal Rugby*

      I would stay out of it. You know nothing, except the behavior he showed you. You’d be amazed how often spouses are in my office protesting that THEIR spouse of 20 years would never do that.

    30. Public Sector Manager*

      Serial harassers, like serial killers, have a type. And if you aren’t their type, they can be professional, friendly, kind, warm, and observe all types of social norms.

      If you are their type, God help you. They will say things that they would never say to anyone else. They will do things out of their “normal” character.

      If your friend was asked to leave his employment, then he crossed a boundary that is unacceptable to the employer. Absolutely stay out of this one.

    31. BuildMeUp*

      I’d like to echo many of the other commenters – the fact that he didn’t harass you doesn’t really mean anything about these accusations. Think of how many murders and serial killers have been discovered years later, happily married with children. Bad people are often shockingly good at hiding that side of themselves.

      Power dynamics are an important thing to consider. As the executive director of this organization, presumably Joe had power over all the employees working there, right? Many harassers target people who are less likely to report their behavior, or less likely to be believed if they do report. So Joe may have targeted an employee specifically because he knew he could threaten her job or otherwise intimidate her into silence. Were you Joe’s subordinate when you met him? If he didn’t have power over you, he would have been much less likely to harass you.

      Additionally, most harassers target victims either in one-on-one situations, or when they know anyone they’re with will either be on their side or unlikely to intervene/report. So the likelihood of him harassing someone in front of you is small. The fact that you never saw him behave that way doesn’t really mean anything.

      1. Who Plays Backgammon?*

        Yes yes yes.

        Years ago I worked for a large corporation and kept in touch w/ a coworker after I moved on. She told me the HR Director had been sacked for sexually harassment, mostly low-level clerical workers. It’s sure not easy now, but I have to think how brave those young women were then to come forward and speak out about an executive who had power over them and access to their personal information, including addresses and phone nos.

    32. Ariana Grande's Ponytail*

      I know there are already a lot of replies to this post, but since nobody has said this I feel really strongly that it needs to be said.

      Survivors have nothing to gain from reporting sexual violence and harassment.

      Nobody who has been through this, myself included, gets a kick out of it happening or out of having to share that it happened with other people. It takes a lot for many people to reach the point where they feel that they need to report it, whether it’s to the police, their family and friends, or to HR. Harassment and assault induce strong feelings of shame, self-loathing, and disempowerment.

      You don’t have to want to believe survivors, it is your *duty* to believe survivors. Unless presented with VERY blatant evidence to the contrary, you must believe them and take action accordingly. If your coworker came in and said their car had been stolen that morning, you would believe them, so why when someone says that their safety has been stolen do we not believe them? Please put your personal relationship with Joe aside and treat this person and their allegations as the serious issue that they are! It is a blessing for this company, and especially the employee who was harassed, that he no longer works there.

    33. Thrown into the fire new manager*

      I had a manager completely step up when I complained of one man being irritating… trying to ask me out… She spoke with hr and he was told to stop bothering the women (there were not a lot of us).

      When another man started completely creeping me out, I mentioned it to her and she responded “no, it can’t be, he is really nice”

      The first man I could handle myself..he was harmless and just irritating. The second man still gives me the creeps when I remember him

      Your impression is not necessarily what the other woman is experiencing and the best harassers dont do it in front of others. You shouldn’t get involved

    34. Lilysparrow*

      You say, “I’m shocked to hear that, how awful!”

      Or if you hear it more than once, you say, “I was so shocked to hear that, how awful!”

      And then you shut your mouth.

      If you have the kind of relationship where you could ask him about it privately, fine, see where it leads. But if you only see him on rare social occasions, that’s probably not appropriate or likely to get you any enlightenment.

      You defending him or casting doubt isn’t going to improve his reputation or get his job back. It’s just going to damage your reputation as well.

    35. Middle School Teacher*

      Yes to everything everyone has said.

      Also I feel like if a parent came to me and said “student A punched my son at recess” and I said “well, he’s never punched ME so, you know,” I probably wouldn’t get very far with that.

    36. Dramatic Squirrel*

      When I was 16 I worked in a supermarket. My mom worked in another branch of the store. Manager was a fine upstanding citizen. He started sexually harassing me (and other teens but never the older ladies). It was subtle at first but got to the point of attempted assault. I ran out of the store, went home and told my mom. She said I was lying and I should be ashamed of myself. He’s a lovely man. It wasn’t until somebody took the supermarket to court 10 years later and won that she finally believed me. Just because he seems okay to you does not mean he is actuly okay.

    37. Who Plays Backgammon?*

      Harassers seldom seek out witnesses. Your experiences with Joe won’t necessarily be the same as someone else’s, and there have been so many cases in which the predator was “such a nice guy” to everyone else.

      I would suggest not weighing in on this. You weren’t there to know what happened with Joe and this other person.

    38. Lobsterp0t*

      I don’t think your opinion matters, but also – everyone who abusive men didn’t abuse thinks they see the true side of abusive men. So, I would really keep it to yourself. It is unlikely that someone would be asked to leave – or dismissed – because of a totally spurious claim. He knows why he left. He doesn’t need your defence. You aren’t some how tarred by association – but if you say what you think, you would be.

      1. Ethyl*

        In fact, many victims of abuse think that the abuse is an anomaly and not “the real them,” and it keeps them stuck a lot. Abusers are extremely adept manipulators!

    39. wittyrepartee*

      Normal people can do bad things. Maybe you just say “He was someone I cared about for a long time, and hearing this makes me very conflicted. I’m so sorry for Sally.”

    40. tamarack & fireweed*

      Others have already made the main point, but to restate it from a harm-reduction perspective: First of all, it might be the case that you’re wrong in your judgement of what this man is capable of, or it might be that the organization was wrong in their judgement of the situation. How likely would either be? To an outside reader like myself, an a-priori guess of 90% in favor of the first looks good, but to you it’s probably more likely that you’re right. However, I’d very much advise of not relying on your gut feeling and personal experience alone: These can easily be wrong, and in any event, people are complicated and frequently act in ways that appear “out of character”. But whatever these percentages are, you need to start from the fact that at the very least these are two options to be taken seriously. Second step: you’re involved with the organization that made the judgement, and your attitude may well get back to the person who complained about harassment and certainly her/your mutual co-workers or volunteers. So I’d consider it a clear source of potential harm if you went on to publicly doubt the organization’s judgement and/or cast doubt on her statements. If she was traumatized, and even more so if she was victimized by your friend, then clearly there’s a large chance of doing harm if you proceed like this. This risk far exceeds, IMO, the risk you run by being non-committal and sympathetic.

      My approach would be to say something along the lines of “OMG, that’s really terrible”.

      If you are so close to your friend that you feel loyalty to him supersedes all other considerations then the clean solution would be to step down from your current role with the organization with no suggestion that you doubt their decision. (You can do this whether or not you believe him, BTW.)

  10. Fortitude Jones*

    Update on my most recent job search:

    My application-to-interview rate has gone from 6:1 to 4:1 – this is very new for me, and I’m excited. I didn’t think I had enough experience in my new role to get a new job soon (been a proposal manager now for 16 months with no prior experience), but I’ve had big name companies in various industries set up interviews with me, which is surprising. My cover letter and resume is finally doing it’s job! (Thanks, Alison!)

    Now, one of the positions I’m in contention for asked me to do a writing assessment where I had to re-write a short Executive Summary and a proposal’s Scope of Work section. I spent two hours on this last night, and I’m wondering if people think that request was excessive. I normally don’t do “work” for free (I put it in quotes because, technically, it’s not something they’ll use – the proposal was already submitted), but since this position is a new one for the company (a hybrid proposal writer/content manager), I figured they were probably smart to ask for a writing sample upfront – if they hired someone to write their boiler and serve as a technical editor on their proposal drafts who can’t actually write, that would be a disaster.

    I know people in the education field are used to doing long presentations as an assessment, but I’m curious – who else has had to do something like this, how long did it take, and did you think it was reasonable?

    1. Overeducated*

      Things I can only share on AAM: Wednesday I had a glowing midyear progress review from my supervisor and I was just like “man, I wish I could record this for when I’m feeling discouraged.” (Midyear reviews are verbal check-ins and don’t involve a formal written rating.) My supervisor is someone I admire a lot, and she’s leaving soon, so to have her say such positive things about my work capacity and skills, analytical capability, and contributions to the team were really affirming. She also gave me some advice for coming across more confident and assertive at this point in my career, which is definitely helpful since as a woman in a mid-level position I’m not always sure how to hit the right notes with peers and upper management.

      In other news, my one remaining co-worker who isn’t on a short term contract sent me a job listing he’s planning on applying for and asked me if I was too. Sigh…the exodus continues.

      1. Overeducated*

        I’m so sorry, the above was supposed to be its own level comment! I had started typing a response that I didn’t think your work sample request was excessive, but stopped because I wasn’t sure it would be helpful, and I guess the website thought my new comment was my abandoned draft.

        So anyway, I think two hours, and a starting point instead of having to write something fresh, is reasonable for an interview assignment. But I’m not a writer.

    2. Jules the First*

      As someone who hires proposal peoples, I usually send one or two exercises – a 250 word writing sample (I give you a document and ask you to write the introduction), and a sample RFP which I ask you to structure (but not write) the answer to one question. The two exercises together take a couple of hours, and are infinitely valuable to me when I’m assessing whether your skillset fits with the team. I’d say a couple of hours of work on samples is reasonable, a half-day or more is not.

    3. AndersonDarling*

      Two hours seems like a reasonable amount of time to spend on the assignment. And the assignment sounds focused and relevant to the job, I bet it weeded out a lot of applicants.

    4. Karissa*

      This comes up a lot in programming interviews, where sometimes they want you to spend 4-6 hrs+

      I agree that if it can be done in 1-2 hrs its fine. Also it’s better that it’s clearly a sample exercise, not something that could be used as part of their work.

    5. Fortitude Jones*

      Thanks everyone for your responses! I’m glad to hear that two hours isn’t too bad – I’ve never had to do this before, so didn’t know what was reasonable or not. Now I just sit and wait to see whether they still want to move forward with me or not. No, I’m not panicking at all (I am).

    6. Small but Fierce*

      I once wrote a 3 page proposal for an interview assignment. Between researching and formatting, it took me over 4 hours. And I was on vacation at the time. :/ That said, I also probably took longer than I normally would have since I wanted it to be perfect. I would have turned it down had I realized how long it would take me, but it wasn’t related to their company so it wasn’t like they were getting free work out of me.

      1. Fortitude Jones*

        Yeah, formatting was what took up most of my time – that, and making sure I used the right words on this 15 page document. Now I get to sit and wait this weekend until I hear back next week if they want to make me an offer.

  11. Fenchurch*

    In excellent news, I started a new job a couple of months ago that has completely changed my life. It is something I never thought I would do, and I am the newest person on my team to this area of work. I’d love anyone to chime in that has experience in adult learning and training at a corporate level.

    I’ve gotten a lot of good feedback so far on what I’ve done, but I want to do whatever I can to keep the momentum going!

    1. Nicki Name*

      Working for specialized tech companies, I’ve had to learn about a whole new industry every time I’ve changed jobs. The biggest thing is: don’t be afraid to ask questions! People know you’re the new person, word will get around that you’re new to this area of work, so most people won’t think it’s weird if you ask them to explain something.

      Does your office subscribe to some kind of industry newsletter? If so, make time to read that and look up/ask someone about anything you don’t understand.

    2. Clawfoot*

      There are a TON of Instructional Design blogs and industry forums — it’s a good way to keep a finger on the pulse of the industry, stay abreast of trends and new tech, and get great ideas.

      I personally like the TechSmith forums (they’re the makers of Camtasia and Snagit, among other software), and the Articulate forums (Storyline 2, Articulate 360). They’re super helpful and chocked full of great innovations and new ideas.

  12. Murphy*

    How many times do you keep raising the same issue with your boss?

    I’ve raised my issues with him several times and he either 1) listens and forgets about it/pretends to listen (not sure which), or 2) he just doesn’t see what the problem is. (Those specific issues being that he and another manager keep me completely out of the things I’m supposedly managing.) I’ve just stopped bringing it up because nothing ever changes an it doesn’t seem worth it anymore.

    1. That Girl From Quinn's House*

      His not addressing the issue is his answer, and you’re going to have to read between the lines what he means by that. I’m sorry.

      1. Murphy*

        Yeah, I’m looking but I have some limitations making it hard. Only found one job to apply for so far :(

    2. The Man, Becky Lynch*

      It really depends on the issues. There are some that I ask and maybe follow up just once if he’s lukewarm on the first response but not a total shutdown/hard no. If it’s something I know isn’t his priority but he just needs to sign off on and I’m really invested in it, I will space out my followups but I’ll keep drilling it home.

      Sometimes you have to know which bones are worth digging for and which ones you have to leave in the ground in my experience. If you know he doesn’t care and isn’t going to change, pestering is not the solution because it’s going to wear on your professional relationship which is no good for you.

      1. Quinalla*

        Agreed it really depends on so many things, but a few thoughts…
        When the leaving you out of things is causing problems, make sure he feels the pain of those problems somehow. I’m not sure how it is affecting you, but make sure as immediately as possible when it becomes an issue to get him involved.
        Try coming at your request from a different angle. If you are presenting a problem and asking your boss for solutions, instead try to come up with a couple options for solutions and ask which he’d like you to implement. If you came with a solution, try coming with the problem and try and get your boss to assist with solving it. I do think though if you can make the problem at least partly his to deal with, he’ll be more motivated and believing there is a problem.
        You may want to sit down and figure out what is the worst problem right now and focus in just on that leaving the others aside. Sometimes if you come with what seems like a bunch of problems, it can feel like a big complaint list. If you narrow it down to one , maybe that will get it the attention it needs and you can tackle the next one after the first one is solved. Alternatively, you can focus on the problem that your boss seems least negative on, so something from (1) vs (2). If it is something your boss is just shutting you down on, I’d let it lie for awhile before considering bringing it up again if at all possible.

        1. Murphy*

          It’s only one problem: he and another manager leaving me out of things I’m supposed to be managing. Like I’m the blue teapot coordinator, and then I’ll get emailed a plan for a new teapot process that my boss and the large teapot team put together completely without my input. They held a meeting about it down the hall from where I sit without inviting me. I would say it’s causing minor problems process wise and has the potential to make us look bad, but major problems for me personally as I don’t have enough work to do as it is, and I’m left twiddling my thumbs while other people do my job.

          1. Not All*

            are you me????? Did I post this in my sleep?

            I raised it every couple months for about 2 yrs thinking they were just not used to having someone in my position (it had been vacant for quite awhile). I did ask my coworkers on other teams to please let me know what was going on rather than assuming my supervisor would. Most of them were pretty good about it. But honestly? At the 2 yr mark I both accepted that nothing here will every change and I might as well live with it AND I started applying for other jobs. There are only a handful a year in the entire US, so it’s going to take awhile.

          2. ..Kat..*

            Can you get yourself on the email list for these meetings? By talking directly to whoever sends out the meeting invite?

    3. LKW*

      If you can put the impact into terms that are finite, definitive and align with his performance goals you have a shot. If you can say “Based on not having information in a timely manner/kept in the loop, the following time was lost/wasted/burned due to uncommunicated change in direction/redundant work/misdirected work resulting in a a loss of $$$ based on average daily rate for the involved workers.” or “this project will be delayed by x days/weeks because of lack of communication resulting in overages of $$$”

      They don’t give a shit about your feelings, but if you can point to their behavior and say it cost money to the company and you are documenting it… then perhaps you can get through to them.

  13. Tathren*

    Not looking for advice, but I am curious to hear what others think of this situation.

    I’m a few weeks into a new job that I took knowing that I’d be working in a department of two (myself and my boss) and that my boss was relatively new to the company. Based on the interview and my own research I also knew going in that they’d had department problems and had lost a lot of staff recently. After being hired I learned that the department had very little turnover which led to, as my boss put it, “things running on inertia”. Then the old director died and people jumped ship, and my boss came in to fix the situation after the fact.

    There’s no written SOPs in our department, a lot of unnecessary outdated holdovers that need to be updated and/or cut out entirely, and we’re likely going to encounter ongoing problems in some areas because of sub-standard work conducted in the past. Personally, I like dealing with these sorts of challenges and my boss has said that he’s looking forward to the two of us working together to build new standards for the department so we can expand and add more staff again down the road.

    I am curious, though, if this is something that could (or should) have been raised in the interview process? Until I had an explicit conversation with my boss about this the other day, a lot of these issues were red flags and I was worried that I hadn’t done enough due diligence before taking this position. And while I’m actually a little excited about being able to fix these problems, I can easily see someone else being blindsided by it all. Anyone who had done research on the company should have been able to tell that there were problems with the department, but nothing was explicitly stated in the interview.

    If you were hiring someone into this situation, would you have been upfront about the problems and the long-term plans to fix them? And how would you raise this in an interview without scaring off qualified applicants?

    1. Celeste*

      In this situation, I would give the boss a pass for being new and walking into a mess. I wonder if he really had the full picture of what it would take to turn things around. I do agree with you that it would be normal and more effective to let the person know something about what to expect at this point. Fortunately it sounds like a good fit for you! I hope you can get it sorted and really shine.

      1. Fortitude Jones*

        I was going to say – the boss is probably right there with you if he’s new. HR really should have ensured someone who had been with the company a long time was also around to interview you, that way you would have been given the full picture of what was happening in your department. Good luck with the job – it sounds like you thrive in this sort of environment, so you should be fine.

        1. Tathren*

          Thank you both for the responses! It hadn’t occurred to me that since my boss is also relatively new that he probably didn’t know the full scope of the situation when I interviewed but that would make a lot of sense.

          Also, it’s a small company and there’s no HR department. The company president sat in on my interview but I don’t think he knows the full scope of the mess that we’re uncovering within the department either. There’s literally no one left with in-depth knowledge of how the department was run, which definitely causes some problems but it also means that there’s no one who will be resistant to the changes that need to be made which is why I’m excited about the situation!

          1. Fortitude Jones*

            Right. You get to put your own stamp on the role and basically turn this place around how you think it should be – that’s an awesome position to be in.

    2. The Other Dawn*

      I’m in this situation now. I started about a month ago. I knew coming into this that there would be things I would be expected to change due to Issues and That’s How It’s Always Been, and I looked forward to the challenge. I was very glad to be told during the interview process. There are now other things coming up that I didn’t necessarily know the extent of, although I was told a little bit, and I’m trying to navigate them, but I feel they were pretty forthcoming in general.

      I would absolutely want to have my eyes wide open going in, and I would do the same when hiring someone. My last employer told me nothing of a certain issue facing us because he thought it would scare me off; however, it’s something I’ve dealt with previously and I wish I would have been told. They were so nervous I’d be scared off so they didn’t give me any hint. It turned out that it really wasn’t anything big at all. I mean, to them it was because they hadn’t dealt with it before, but for me it was “been there, done that.”

      1. Tathren*

        Can I ask how they discussed that there are “Issues and That’s How It’s Always Been” when you interviewed? I think in my case, as other commenters have pointed out, my boss might not have known the full scope of problems when I interviewed but I’m wondering, in general, how this can be discussed with an applicant without scaring them off. I’d be curious to hear how frank they were with you when initially discussing the challenges!

        1. The Other Dawn*

          That probably wasn’t the best way for me to phrase it. I was trying to write it in a way that wouldn’t be identifiable if someone at the company happened to read it. Let’s see if I can explain.

          There was a big problem years ago, which caused them to swing the pendulum too far and that led to a ton of work. That burned some people out and they left, but the issue of too much work for the size of the company didn’t get resolved. No one changed it because they were afraid of audit repercussions. The department is double the size of companies that are twice as big as them. But with so much work that has to be done because of how policies were written, it couldn’t be downsized. They finally decided they wanted external eyes, which is where I came in.

          I would say they were pretty honest about that, although maybe not the full extent of workload. But just knowing the size of the department vs. the size of the company, I knew that’s why it was so out of whack. They kind of minimized an employee issue, but I did at least have an inkling of it.

          1. The Other Dawn*

            I’ll also add that in my industry, banking, there are certain things interviewers can’t talk about since they’re highly confidential. Once someone is an employee, though, they are usually able to talk freely. So at my last job, I didn’t know there was a regulatory exam issue until I came on board. My former boss could have talked in a way that gave me some clues since I’ve been in banking a long time and would have picked up on them, but he didn’t.

            1. Tathren*

              Thank you for the additional details, especially the explanation of what can be discussed in an interview vs what needs to wait until after someone is hired. I don’t work with confidential information like that so I hadn’t considered the limitations that that would place on the hiring process.

              It sounds like for your current job the interviewers were able to give enough information for you to recognize the bulk of the problems going in. I think I would’ve liked to know more of the problems my department will be facing before I was hired, but I can see now that that information just might not have been there.

              Thanks again for the responses, and good luck with your new position!

    3. The Man, Becky Lynch*

      I think that knowing that there was already turnover and that there was a new boss, things already click as “oh things are probably kind of a mess right now” but I also realize that not everyone has been in this situation countless times before like I have. I specialize in cleaning up other people’s messes at this stage in my career.

      My job now is the least messy of all but I had to build SOP and create things from scratch because of the laziness others have always ran on previously. Despite it being a prosperous company with low turnover in most aspects. Other’s seemed to operate on their own notes but had no desire to leave a trail for someone who may come after them.

      We do make it clear that we don’t have written procedures for a lot of things in some of our positions but I’m not sure what else you can tell someone without completely coming across as a messy sinking ship that you need help bailing out? You don’t get into those gritty details until you hire someone and are building that action plan in my experience!

      1. Tathren*

        The reason I was caught off-guard is more the *scale* of the mess, rather than one exists at all. Also the fact that my boss is new and there’s a lot of turnover isn’t information that was volunteered during the interview, I found it out by doing my own research on the company and my new boss. (And I”m very glad that I did do that research so at least I came into this situation knowing that much!)

        “…I’m not sure what else you can tell someone without completely coming across as a messy sinking ship that you need help bailing out?”

        This is very fair. I was trying to think of how this could have been explained in the interview without scaring off applicants and was drawing a blank, so I can understand being hesitant to raise the subject for that reason.

        1. The Man, Becky Lynch*

          Ah yes, you usually have to ask in the interview about turnover and how long someone’s been in their position in your “questions”, that will rarely ever be given to you by the interviewer! See interviewers want to keep you safe from the drama or craziness that they may hold within their systems. Just like an interviewee isn’t going to let the interviewer know about their turbulence/baggage either!

          It goes back to likening it to dating. You present your best self on both sides and the other either digs with questions and sees what answers they get or you just go with your gut and get on or off the ride at some point.

          It’s one of the things that makes switching jobs scary for a lot of people, it’s the “demon unknown” vs “the demon we know” scenario. If you’re too real, it’s a red flag, if you’re too vague it’s a red flag, it’s so damned if you do damned if you don’t!

    4. LKW*

      In my mind – Setting new Standards translates into “This place is a mess and we need to un-mess this”

    5. ProperDose*

      HA! I could have written this post myself. The only difference is that 6 weeks into my new job, the VP let my boss go. And the backfill for that position doesn’t start until May (it’s an internal person who lives in Asia and is moving back). So, boss that was let go….wasn’t very good….so there’s a large backlog of work, and very little process for how to do anything. Oh, and the guy before him was fired a year and a half before that. The problem with both was that they weren’t very proactive.

      I WAS blindsided, as of course I wasn’t expecting to be a department of 1 for 5 months for a global company. My new boss and I have had talks about updating all of our SOPs and trying to expand the department. I’m still left with this nagging feeling of ‘I don’t think I’m getting paid enough for all this, now’, which is a topic on it’s own…

      1. The Other Dawn*

        Oof I hear ya on lack of procedures. That’s another boat I’m in right now. We have them, but there aren’t nearly as many as I would expect and I’m surprised we haven’t been called out on that yet.

  14. Workerbee*

    Ex-Boss Only Contacts Me For a Job

    TL;DR: As bosses go, he was a good boss from three companies ago, and we got along great. He left that company years before I did, but social media kept us connected.

    But I’ve noticed that he really only gets in touch (over LinkedIn) when he wants to find a new job.

    I feel like he only remembers I exist when he has an agenda. Should I tell him this, or just accept that this is the norm?

    Details:
    –The first time he reached out after a few years of silence was when I briefly worked at a talent management/staffing company, even though my role had nothing to do with recruiting. His opening salvo was along the lines of “I need you to get me a job.” He desperately hated where he was, but I still was taken aback by it.

    More years: *Pass*

    –Now he’s periodically pinging me about my current company, which is slowly expanding and has openings in a department I don’t work in.

    Last year when he reached out for one of those openings, it had again been several years since I’d heard from him. He used the stock LinkedIn message: “Would you share my LinkedIn profile with the hiring team?” but did add a more personal message with it. I could still recall that he was a decent boss back in the day; I thought, sure, I’ll pass it on.

    Nothing came of it and I didn’t hear from him after.

    I just now received a “What’s going on with you?” message.

    How nice, I thought. I told him what’s been happening and asked how he was.

    “I’m fine…got any job openings?”

    Sigh. Am I just expecting too much from an ex-colleague?

    1. Colette*

      I think only getting in touch with people when there’s a reason is pretty common. I also think that he’s doing it poorly – he should make an effort to build the connection before asking for stuff. You’d probably feel differently if he started with “Hi Workerbee, I hope you’re doing well. I see you’re working at YourCompany – I’ve heard really good things about them! I’m doing well – still busy with Sport and VolunteerWork. I’ve been working at MyCompany but am looking for a change. Would you be willing to pass my resume along to Hiring Team? No worries if you aren’t, of course! We should get coffee sometime soon to catch up!”

      1. valentine*

        Am I just expecting too much from an ex-colleague?
        Yes. You’re a professional contact. How would you prefer him to behave? Do you want him to get in touch to catch up or to ask to meet for coffee? Do you wish you were friends? Block him or don’t respond. Fly and be free.

    2. T. Boone Pickens*

      Hmmm, yes and no. I think your ex-boss would be well suited to learn to the read the room a little bit and try to make some small talk with you before getting to his ask. At the same time, it sounds like the two of you communicate pretty infrequently so he’s just getting right to the point as it’s a pretty low stakes ask for him. From his point of view he probably views it as, “If Workerbee has a job opening that fits my background, great! Maybe they’ll put a good word in for me. If not, no big deal.”

      If you thought he’d be a good value add to your organization I’d put in a good word for him with your company (which it sounds like you did). Honestly, I could go either way on continuing to communicate with him going forward. He seems pretty transparent in that he only reaches out when he’s job hopping so if you want to entertain that, feel free if not, no worries, I’d just ignore him.

    3. The Man, Becky Lynch*

      I think that given your relationship is due to him being your former boss and therefore you’re connected on that professional level, it’s not odd that he reaches out in time of job searches. He just stinks at the social lubrication that should be happening here when you’re asking someone for a favor, which is why you’re feeling the friction when he just pings over “Hey, I need a job, hook me up?” instead of a little catch-up friendly chit-chat throwback.

      1. only acting normal*

        I almost feel false adding the ‘social lubricant’: “Hi, how’s it going? Haven’t talked in ages! Hope you’re well. PS can you get me a job?”
        I do see the need for it, but should the gimme wait until the second message? The third?

        1. Colette*

          I think it’s OK to ask in the first message, as long as you show concern for the other person first and make it easy for them to say no.

          1. Washi*

            I agree that it’s totally fine to ask in the first message! I think for me, when there’s a reason to reach out to someone (like a job search) it’s also a nice chance to re-connect a tiny bit and keep that relationship alive. If I liked working with the person, I want to hear a sentence or two about how they’re doing and I assume they want to briefly hear how I am.

            What would put me off about the messages described is that there’s none of that warmth, it’s treating the other person as a pure commodity, not a nice human they worked with, maybe for multiple years. Collette’s first message is a really good example of getting to the point without being so transactional.

    5. MissDisplaced*

      Meh. This is fairly normal with past work friends and acquaintances. I wouldn’t say your former boss is doing is particularly well or the most professionally perhaps, but it’s still pretty normal. Also, I’d say that Americans in general and men in particular tend to be blunt and forthright about these things while some cultures dance around this topic (I have former coworkers in other countries where, say, meeting for coffee is expected).
      Boss isn’t the best communicator, hopefully he has better professional qualities that recommend him.

  15. Miss Fisher*

    So how do you navigate certain time away. I just bought a house last week, so I have been taking off half days and coming in late / leaving early to take care of cleaners, carpet cleaners, etc. I am also moving this weekend and taking a couple days off next week, not to mention I called in sick one day this week (have been slow at work) to get some things done. My boss has been really understanding about the whole thing, but its making me feel a little guilty. I am not used to taking so much time off like this. So how do you navigate doing so while also not feeling bad about it or thinking your boss will think you are flighty.

    1. Miss Fisher*

      I will admit taking the sick day was a bit much, but I rarely ever use them and I actually did wake up with a sinus headache.

      1. Sloan Kittering*

        If your work is cyclical like mine is, and this is not your busiest period, I think this is fine to do sometimes – you will pay it back during that crunch time that comes up later. It’s kind to acknowledge your appreciation to the boss and express that this is not your New Normal. But IMO it’s one of the perks that comes from being trusted and respected in your role.

      2. Lucette Kensack*

        I think the sick day was a bad call (if you have separate sick and vacation days, you should use sick days when you’re sick, not when you need a day to take care of new house stuff). But otherwise? You’re fine — this is what vacation days are there for.

        If you’re feeling nervous about it, why not have a quick chat with your boss? Depending on your relationship with your boss, you could frame it either as a check-in (“Hey boss, I know I’ve been taking a lot of partial days off lately as I get settled into the new house. I’ve been staying on top of my workload, but I wanted to make sure that you’re comfortable with how I’m managing this right now,”) or as a thank you (“Boss, I really appreciate the flexibility I’ve been able to take advantage of with the new house. It’s really helped me stay on top of my work and get settled into my new home!”)

      3. Librarian of SHIELD*

        I think it’s completely normal that you started to feel sick during a high stress time in your life. That happens to a lot of people. I’m of the opinion that if someone isn’t feeling well and doesn’t think they can work, they should take the day to rest. I’m glad you did that. The timing makes it feel worse than it is, I think.

        I’m also a person who rarely takes time off, and when several family issues happened all at once and resulted in me missing work, I felt really guilty about leaving my coworkers in the lurch. So I get it. But this is a one-time period of your life and it will be over soon. You’ll be able to get back to being the reliable coworker you’re used to being, and you’ll be around to cover the nest time one of your coworkers has a life event that takes them away from work for a while.

    2. Murphy*

      I feel like if you’re still getting stuff done, it’s not crunch time at work, and you’re staying within your allotted PTO, I wouldn’t worry about it. I’d maybe let your boss know that you appreciate them being understanding and let them know you’ll be settled. But I don’t think you have to do that.

    3. CheeryO*

      I think this depends on your specific benefits and office culture. I get separate sick leave, personal leave, and vacation leave, and as long as I give my boss a heads-up in advance, I can use personal/vacation pretty much whenever (but I can’t flex my schedule, so coming in late/leaving early is a no-no unless I’m charging time). I wouldn’t have used the sick day, but that’s also easy to say as someone with generous personal/vacation leave.

      It’s not clear if your boss knows that you just bought a house – if not, I would definitely let them know, just so they know that this is a very short-term thing.

      1. Miss Fisher*

        Oh she definitely knows the reasons. I have one of those office cultures where everyone on the team knows everything. We are all pretty much friends. They have been involved with the house search and all looking at the pictures online etc.

        1. CheeryO*

          I think you’re fine then! Try not to feel guilty, although I know that’s easier said than done!

    4. Hallowflame*

      Hello fellow house-buyer!
      I’m going through the same thing as you right now, but I decided to go about it a bit differently. My work is on a monthly/quarterly cycle, which means the first 10 days and the last couple of days are busy and deadline-driven (especially right now with the end of the 1st quarter), but the middle two weeks or so are pretty slow. Knowing this, I scheduled my move and most of my service appointments for the third week of April and booked that whole week as PTO. I also told my manager what was going on so he understands that these are unusual circumstances and my schedule will settle down soon.
      So, in your case, I would keep your boss updated on the general reason you’re taking these chunks of time off (“Hey Boss, I need to take off a couple of hours early tomorrow, I have some service people coming to the house to work on the Thing”) to highlight the fact that these events are not the norm, and your schedule will settle down once you’re settled in at your new home.

    5. montecristo1985*

      I personally remember the times when I’m working more hours. If you are worried about it, keep an excel sheet and time card yourself. I can almost guarantee that when it all comes out in the wash, you work more extra hours than you take off. Especially if you have feast and famine sort of jobs. Sometimes I go home early 3 days in one week, and sometimes I work 10 hours days and the weekends. Your boss understands that you have a life outside of work (or should).

    6. Ariana Grande's Ponytail*

      I just moved house (but renting so a lower-key version of what you are going through) and got a stomach virus and a cold consecutively during the middle of it. I’d say that, as other commenters have noted, taking a sick day might be a bit much if you weren’t actually sick, but if it isn’t a peak period then no harm no foul re: the other stuff. I’ve been making a point of coming in and leaving at pretty strict times and even leaving a bit early if I finish my work for that day. It’s helped me manage my exhaustion while keeping my work efficiency up. And when I had the stomach bug, I took days but then I stopped for the cold because I didn’t want to look like I was flighty. It’s a bit of a balancing act!

    7. Person of Interest*

      Most people understand that buying a house and moving is a huge deal and requires scheduling things during normal business hours. If your boss seems cool with it I would take that at face value and just be extra diligent about getting your stuff done when you are on the clock.

  16. lawschoolmorelikeblawschool*

    Question re: fairness: My workplace has an across the board no work from home policy (that is not uniformly applied, but I digress), but due to a minor disaster in our office, approximately 1/2 of our staff is now working from home temporarily until the office is restored. Because some of us (my division) weren’t impacted by the damage, and this has been a several months affair, management is going to have some non-displaced folks work from home one day a week to allow the displaced coworkers to come into the office. My boss has offered this wfh option to two people (division of 30) and those two people are under the impression that it is because they have children (I wasn’t there so I don’t know exactly what boss said, but they told me directly this was their reading of it). This shady? Note, working from home would be considered a perk by most of my peers.

    1. WellRed*

      Why not directly ask your boss if you can work from home or what you’d need to do to work from home? His answer could be telling.

      1. valentine*

        I don’t see the relevance of children. You might tell him about the rumor in case he wants to correct it.

    2. CatCat*

      I am not sure it’s shady so much as odd. I wouldn’t worry about it unless you wanted the WFH option too. If that’s the case, you’d just ask what you need to do to be considered for being able to WFH.

    3. C*

      It doesn’t sound like they handled it well, no. A better way to do this would have been a lottery-type system where they ask who wants the opportunity then draw names.

    4. Pay no attention to the man behind the curtain*

      Are there really only 2 people out of 30 who have children? If they are the only 2 who have children, then that certainly looks to be the case, but if there are 15 who have children, it’s probably a coincidence and maybe more likely that they are more trusted or the boss thinks they have earned a perk that others haven’t, but no one wants to say that.

      1. lawschoolmorelikeblawschool*

        No, there’s lots of others with children, but my boss got shut down by grandboss for the way he handled it (not related to the child thing – its a long story but all of upper management is pissed) so he didn’t get the chance to continue with the pattern (if there was a pattern). I can’t be sure of his motivations, but he made the folks he offered think it was because they have children, so I guess overall I’m asking if its shady to give a perk to people simply because they have kids. I didn’t express that very clearly earlier. Thanks for everyone’s responses.

        1. nj employee*

          That’s very shady, and clearly discriminatory. Also, it is typical to require WFH employees to have child care coverage, which can be hard to arrange on an ad hoc, part time, short term basis.

          1. AcademiaNut*

            I don’t think it’s illegally discriminatory in the US though – so not a good policy, but perfectly legal.

  17. To book or not to book?*

    I have been awarded a bursary that aims to help young professionals in my (creative) field. I plan to use the money to help me to travel to university interviews, as I am going to get a degree which is directly related to my work. My question is – is it ethical to use the bursary to book a nice hotel, rather than just a budget one? I’d still be well within the budget, and they don’t seem to want me to provide evidence of how I’ve used it, just an update on how the money has helped me further my career.
    I wanted to use it to book train tickets so I didn’t have to drive there, but, public transport being what it is here, it would have cost me almost the whole amount I’ve been given…

    1. CatCat*

      It doesn’t sound like there is a particular expense limit for hotels. Since you’re staying within the budget, I would not worry about hairsplitting over the class of hotel. Stay where you will be most comfortable within the budget you have.

    2. fposte*

      I think it depends on the history and terms of the bursary and what the difference to you (and to the costs) is between a “nice” and a “budget” hotel. For instance, if you stayed at my town’s Hampton Inn or Hyatt Place, those would be around $30 more than a Red Roof Inn or Econolodge and I’d consider it perfectly reasonable for you to stay at the higher-priced option there. If you’re talking a splurge to see what a really nice hotel looks like, I wouldn’t consider that a good use.

      1. To book or not to book?*

        I think I just want something central that’s not super-cramped or uncomfortable. Travel always gives me a headache so a comfy bed would be welcome. I’m not looking for anything really luxurious, just a step up from the cheapest options.

        1. fposte*

          I think a better location is absolutely a reasonable factor. I don’t know what “super-cramped or uncomfortable” means to you–I’ve stayed in high-end hotels with postage-stamp rooms–but I think as long as you stick to common affordable business chains like those I mentioned you should be fine.

        2. Vibey Vibes*

          It sounds like that’s precisely the intended use of the bursary! You received funds to help you further your career, and one of the uses to which you are putting it is getting a more comfortable, restful night’s sleep when traveling for interviews. Then you will be fresher and better prepared to give a stellar interview. To me, this all sounds like good choices, not indulgence.
          Also, good luck on your interviews!

          1. SignalLost*

            Exactly what I was thinking! Past a certain price point you’re just indulging, but staying in a Motel 6 out by the airport rather than a mid-price hotel closer to your interview has a cost as well, and the cost is to your health, to your rest, to your comfort, and to your time. You don’t have to shoulder all those costs.

            1. To book or not to book?*

              Thanks everyone! I booked a reasonable, central hotel, which should make things a lot easier :)

    3. LKW*

      Use your best judgement to make the funds last as long as you need them. You could book a room at the Plaza and make one trip or book at a Residence Inn and make 4 trips. Use it wisely and don’t put yourself at a disadvantage of being uncomfortable or unsafe.

    4. only acting normal*

      At work we have an exhaustive travel policy including assumption of a 3* hotel (ie that general level of amenities. Price varies hugely by location anyway, so it’s not set by price).
      You could make your own set of minimum requirements, whatever those are, and choose a sensible hotel option within them. So you don’t feel obliged to always go super-budget and also don’t get tempted to break the bank. ;)

    5. Mobuy*

      Totally fine. I wouldn’t book the bridal suite or anything, but a nice hotel? Absolutely reasonable.

      1. lawschoolmorelikeblawschool*

        No, there’s lots of others with children, but my boss got shut down by grandboss for the way he handled it (not related to the child thing – its a long story but all of upper management is pissed) so he didn’t get the chance to continue with the pattern (if there was a pattern). I can’t be sure of his motivations, but he made the folks he offered think it was because they have children, so I guess overall I’m asking if its shady to give a perk to people simply because they have kids. I didn’t express that very clearly earlier.

  18. Frustrated Today*

    I’m hoping someone might have some guidance for me on this.

    I’m in my new job and it turns out I have someone on my hands that is very sensitive and really takes things to heart; hates change; feels undervalued although I’ve seen no evidence of this (everyone speaks highly of her, gives her work she enjoys and she’s very sharp and knowledgeable, and she’s a new-ish manager; it appears to be something she’s internalized in regards to one specific hangup); is extremely overwhelmed yet won’t delegate anything; and everything is an emotional roller coaster…and I’ve been here only a few weeks.

    I was warned about this and I’m talking with my boss and a few with longtimers here who work/worked with her and apparently, it’s been a struggle for a long time. I’m not feeding into the emotions, though I’m letting her voice her frustrations. I just sit back and wait for her to finish and then try to talk through it with her in a logical way.

    Any suggestions on how to get someone to let the work go so they can move on to more important things? I need her to do that, but I want to give her a chance to tell me on her own what she can delegate since she is a manager and should be able to do this. I will, however, eventually force her if she doesn’t. That will be weeks, not months. I’ve also talked through all the pros of delegating and the repercussions of not doing it (burnout, people can’t learn and grow, she can’t learn and grow, etc.)

    1. Hope*

      Have you tried framing it as “part of your job is to delegate tasks, and I need you to do that part of your job”?

      1. Frustrated Today*

        That’s coming when we meet next, which is very soon. I’m trying to give her a bit of leeway (there were some things going on that I didn’t mention for anonymity’s sake); however, it’s been a struggle and seems it will continue to be, and I’m now at the point where I need to tell her she *has* to do it.

        1. valentine*

          You simply need her to do all these pieces, including not wearing her heart on her sleeve, not expecting therapy sessions at work, and not whining about feeling undervalued when there’s evidence to the contrary.

          I’m not feeding into the emotions, though I’m letting her voice her frustrations.
          Stop this. Cut her off and stick to the agenda. You’re not an appropriate audience for her venting. If she has concrete things she wants help with, sure, but she has to get and stick to the point: “Catharsis isn’t taking feedback well and I’d like your take on it,” not “Catharsis hates me and thinks I hate them and I’m the worst manager, ever, etc.”

          Pay attention to how the team is suffering under her. She would’ve lost my respect the second time she sadfaced and I’d be exhausted.

          1. Frustrated Today*

            Wow, that’s pretty harsh. I didn’t say she’s in my office sobbing for hours on end, multiple days per week. There’s nothing wrong with letting her tell me her frustrations a couple times. I’m a new manager coming into the company, and she’s new in the manager role on an established team. Part of getting to know my team was to sit down with each one and talk about their role within the department, frustrations, what they’d like to see change, etc.

    2. Steggy Saurus*

      I would love to hear the answers to this because as a relatively new manager, I really screwed up with an employee working for me who exhibited a lo of the same characteristics (to the point that she got another job and I was incredibly relieved). I would very much like not to let that happen again!

      1. Frustrated Today*

        It’s the general consensus from the longtimers and my boss that this actually may need to happen if she can’t move forward in a meaningful way. I don’t want to lose her, but I can’t continue on this path either. There’s only so much we can do. Some of it has to come from within her.

    3. LKW*

      I don’t know how well this is going to come out but part of this is “Your time is valuable, you need to delegate the less sophisticated stuff to people who’s time is less valuable than yours”

      It’s a hard thing for new managers (and some older managers) to break through. The company values her by paying for her time – and wants to get the most bang for their buck. So if she takes a hour to put together a spreadsheet – that’s $X. If she delegates to an employee paid less that’s $X-Y. As a someone who has a stake in the success of a company – she should, to the best of her ability, direct work to the person who can do it for the lowest cost and leave the more appropriate work for someone of her level – to herself.

      Not sure if that would work but maybe it takes some of the emotion out of it.

      I got nothing on the emotional stuff. I was going to recommend something to help adjust her point of view but that would likely cause her head to explode and you don’t need that drama.

      1. OtterB*

        Depending on the individual, the other thing that might help is to remind her that the win-win situation is when the lower-level tasks she delegates are learning/growth opportunities for the person she delegates them to. Sometimes new managers are afraid of overloading their employees and framing it as an opportunity rather than an imposition for the recipient can help.

    4. The Man, Becky Lynch*

      Sadly I don’t see this working out with her, she’s not going to accept being forced to delegate, it’ll heighten her emotions even more. Been there, done that.

      So I would just go ahead and go through the motions, give her a chance and don’t count her out but don’t get your hopes up that this is going to end well.

      I found people who cannot delegate need to just have someone else do it for them. It’s a control issue in the end.

    5. INeedANap*

      I think just being super clear and honest is the best way forward. With someone who is sensitive, the natural impulse is to try and be gentle around that, but in the end she has to be able to do the work.

      I do not think you are doing her any favors by letting her voice her frustrations. That’s a waste of both of your time at this point. (Note: hearing employees’ frustrations is good and should be done! It’s just in this specific context, it’s a waste of time.) At this point, I’d lay out clearly: this is what the job is, this is what we expect of you, can you do it professionally?

    6. Observer*

      You need to push the delegation piece, as you’ve noted. But also, you need to cut down on the venting. She doesn’t want X because of Y. OK. Hear it out and make sure that you’re dealing with the legitimate issues she bring up. But, you need to limit how much time she spends on this, and don’t let her keep repeating the same complaints.

      If that means cutting her off, so be it, as long as you are not unnecessarily rude or mean. What I mean is that it’s going to feel rude to tell her “OK, we’ve discussed this and need to move on” or something like that, but that is perfectly ok. What you don’t want to do, eg is “OK, you’ve whined long enough. On to business.” As long as you stick to the former, you’re good.

    7. Frankie*

      My guess is that you can’t really do much about the way she emotionally processes her job, and sidestepping that to the extent you can is probably a good way not to feed it, as you say.

      When I read this I think the biggest standout is that she won’t delegate. That is never sustainable, and you really have to tell her to delegate, and enforce it. Teach her how to do it. Inability to delegate is about control, and she’s going to have to learn how to relinquish direct control over everything, which is currently likely how she sees herself succeeding at her job. Sometimes success is NOT doing something and handing it off to someone else.

      It might be an adjustment for schedule planning, too–if you delegate, you need to give others advance notice and plan around their capacity and schedule, instead of just doing something whenever you need it done.

      Another thing will probably be helping her understand not everything has to be done the exact way she would do it. That’s part of delegation, too–others will have their own approach. For example, if someone else handles some writing for her, she shouldn’t then give nitpicky line-by-line edits on the writing, or fully rewrite herself after she gets it. Again, the control thing.

    8. LQ*

      Is there stuff she doesn’t like to do? Stuff she wants to not have to do anymore? She may not (I’d guess won’t) say it, but if there are those items you can spot that she doesn’t enjoy that are delegatable, pick out those things first. You need to have Susan do the TPS reports.

      You can also give her more work. It feels odd, but I got someone who was a jealous guarder to let stuff go when he realized there was more than enough work for him and others. This train of work isn’t going to stop, you need to manage it, I will drown you in work… Now, not only is he understanding and actually delegating but he’s trying to be cognizant of how others are managing as far as their workloads.

      1. Frustrated Today*

        It actually doesn’t seem to be a matter of being afraid of running out of work (I once had someone like that), but rather feeling like it’s failure on her part and a lack of control.

        1. LQ*

          Can you be really frank about it?
          “Part of this job is delegation, if you cannot delegate x% of this work/these types of tasks, you cannot do this job. You doing this work yourself, means you are not doing (Job Title) job.”

          It’s kind of shitty manipulative but you could say directly what you’re doing, “I’m telling you this because you seem to be concerned about failing at this job and I want you to know that this is how you can fail at this job. You fail but not delegating the work. You fail by doing all the work yourself. Even if every single task gets done, but it gets done by you, you will have failed at this role. I want you to succeed and so I need you to do this task that I have asked of you.”

    9. twig*

      You say “everyone speaks highly of her” but does she get the positive feedback or has she only heard about what she has been doing wrong?

      (I’m totally projecting here — I see a bit of myself you your report, so take this with whatever grain/boulder of salt you need to)

      I just had my first annual review in 7 years. My supervisor is pretty communicative and has been keeping me abreast of what I need to work on — which is good, I need to know how I need to improve. But I’ve had very little feedback about what I was doing right/well over the years too. I don’t need a participation trophy, but 7 years of hearing what I need to work on/improve and not much about what was actually going well has done a number on me. I was surprised that my annual review was as positive as it was (almost completely positive!)

      Another thing: has she had any supervisory training at all? Supervising does not come naturally to everyone (does it come naturally to anyone?) it’s difficult to know what/how to delegate– especially when you have always been the delegatee. (and quite comfortable being the delegatee)

      1. Frustrated Today*

        From what I’ve been told by several people, she’s had a ton of feedback both positive and negative, the negative being the emotions and delegation. She even told me that herself. And yes, she had some supervisory training, but I don’t think it was enough–I believe it was a webinar (before I arrived). People typically need more than a webinar. I do plan to look and see what’s out there for her. I don’t want to give up until I see for myself that I need to; it hasn’t been long at all. (I changed the time frame a little in my original post so I can remain anonymous.)

    10. CastIrony*

      I’m like Sleeve- I can’t delegate well, though I am working on that. What I did was ask my supervisor something to the effect of, “Hey, I think I’m a bad student manager. I don’t know how to delegate because I don’t want to be rude or out of line (I had just escaped an overcritical boss that took things away from me when I was correcting my mistakes, and I really, really didn’t want to be like them.)” Then, my supervisor told me that they were starting a checklist on what needs to be done during that shift!

      The checklist has been a lifesaver because I can tell the students to look at the list and to pick a task. If they have any questions or issues, they can ask and come to me, and we can solve it together. If they’re new, I’m happy to train (I’m working on not being intimidated by new people at first).

      tl:dr: Having a daily checklist that Sleeve can show workers and having them do those tasks may help if the work is pretty much the same day in and day out.

  19. overcaffeinatedandqueer*

    My coworker keeps creeping on me!

    She watches me all the time and even comes into the bathroom when I shower. I feel like she’s judging me!

    I mean, she’s a cat, since I am at home today. But still.

    1. Putting Out Fires, Esq.*

      Suggestion: fill her food bowl and stop starving her already.

      Signed, a completely disinterested cat

    2. Folkie*

      Mine too!
      He will also go through my bin when I’m out of the room, and has stolen my lunch on occasion.
      One look at his big, floppy ears and waggy tail and I forgive him everything, though.

    4. Tiptoe Through the Tulips*

      Haha! I’ll admit I was increasingly concerned as I read your post. Until the payoff, of course. Can I trade my co-worker for yours?

    6. Chicago Anon*

      Working in a truly diverse environment that includes coworkers of other species requires special sensitivity to cross-species sensitivities. Your feline co-worker has a different sense of privacy and personal space than you do, and there are times when she will need to supervise you closely, even in situations where humans normally expect to be alone, and other times when she will insist on her right to be left alone, even when in human body language she appears to be requesting attention. Her evaluations of you will be taken into consideration but they are not the sole arbiter of your performance, as we understand the difficulties of these multi-species work spaces.

      1. JokersandRogues*

        Mine watched very carefully from a corner of the counter as I plunged the toilet.

      2. Elizabeth Proctor*

        The answer to this, as to most AAM questions, is you simply must be more direct.

        1. Sacred Ground*

          Or, your cat sucks and isn’t going to change.

          And yes, in the US it’s totally legal for your cat to do that, though maybe not in California.

      3. LadyByTheLake*

        This. As the only human member of a feline-diverse work environment, I have had to take into account the cultural differences and be sensitive that I am in their space. While I would not usually state that the non-majority individual is the one who must always make concessions, in this one instance, I have had to make the necessary adjustments.

    8. CatCat*

      Bwah!! I laughed out loud.

      Just wait until she starts meowing incessantly during a conference call.

      p.s. She’s definitely judging you.

    9. CupcakeCounter*

      So my first WTF was why are your showering at work…then I read the rest. She loves you (and judges you)

    10. Rebecca*

      Oh, I love this! The only time I get to go to the bathroom by myself is at my office job! My cats follow me into the bathroom, and put their paws on my knee when I’m trying to, well, use the facilities. I say “hey, I don’t do this to you when you’re in the litter box” to no avail. Thank you so much for the smile today!

      2. Ktelzbeth*

        My cat brings me her fetching ball when I’m using the facilities (yes, my cat plays fetch).

    12. Red Reader the Adulting Fairy*

      One coworker keeps wedging herself between me and the back of the chair, planting her feet in my kidneys and shoving. One is on the other side of our shared office snoring to beat the band. And a third totally came to work stoned and keeps coming to my office door and yelling at me about it.

      (Two dogs and a cat. And the human in the other home office fell down the basement stairs this morning and soaked the whole carpet with a double-size cup of coffee, interrupting my morning conference call with a ruckus of thumping and cursing. He’s okay, though now this whole end of the house smells like mocha. But it’s too Friday-before-vacation for this nonsense.)

    13. LCL*

      Well you can talk to her and explain how this is not acceptable behavior. As long as you don’t expect any results from your talk it’s all good. Isn’t that one of the reasons we keep pets, to have someone to talk to?

    14. Nonnynon*

      Maybe you shouldn’t do things without me overcaffinated!! Why do you need to have time by yourself? Why do your go to the bathroom without me? You know I enjoy our special times together in there. Why are you going in that weird thing and get water all over yourself? I’m just trying to help and watch over you. Don’t you know how much I love you!!!!!
      signed, your loving (obsessed) cat coworker

    15. Dasein9*

      IKR??? I had to go to the big office today, and my coworker made sure I had her hair on my jeans so I wouldn’t get lonely.

    16. E*

      My coworker today is my 3 year old, as he puked halfway to daycare this morning. I’m currently enjoying the quiet as he catches up on sleep and hasn’t been sick since thankfully.

    17. Earthwalker*

      Just ignore it. You only have to worry if she starts calling your boss with gossip about you.

    18. Marthooh*

      Your coworker is probably just socially awkward, in the special feline sense of making things awkward for others until they get what they want.

  20. OldcoBaggins*

    Can I use my old company branded items at my new job? I like the backpack my old company gave me better than the one my new company gave me. The only issue is that my old company’s logo is printed on half of the bag. The companies are competitors globally though do not overlap much in the US market. I will meet with internal clients while carrying my bag.

    I also have a superhero messenger bag I like. If I can’t use my old company’s bag, would this one be acceptable?

    My industry is biotech. People usually walk around in tshirts and Jean’s so we are very laidback.

      1. valentine*

        Don’t do it. You can use it outside of work? Go with the superhero one if images are allowed. If the T-shirts have to be plain/non-graphic (ha), I might not use any branding items.

    2. Rat Racer*

      I still have a pen or two from my old company, and use a backpack from my spouse’s old company, and don’t think much about it. But I think it depends on whether your former company was a fierce competitor with the new one. If you’re working for Coke, do not under any circumstances wear a Pepsi tee-shirt, for example.

    3. ThatGirl*

      I was going to say yes (I have a great coffee mug from my last job I still use) but then you said they were competitors. So. No, unfortunately.

    4. Dusty Bunny*

      Coworkers are wearing t-shirts and jeans? Then yes, use the superhero bag. And you can wear/carry/flaunt swag from tradeshows, even if it is not your company or brand.

    5. ClumsyCharisma*

      I wouldn’t use your previous companies, especially if your new company gave you one. It could make you look like you are not fully committed to the new company or still holding onto the old company.
      As far as using the superhero one I would just look around and see what co-workers are doing. Are they expressing their unique style? Then go for it. If they are all using the company branded bag, I think that’s your answer.

      1. OldcoBaggins*

        When I got my new bag (unbranded), they said everyone has the same one so I should make it min. They said some people paint their or add patches, though I haven’t seen that in my department. Most of my coworkers don’t use their company provided bag because EVERYONE has the same bag (black popular laptop bag). If you take public transit, you will see a handful of them around.

    6. MTUMoose*

      I had a company branded computer bag but I was able to remove the logo by using a seam ripper and an hour of time. Would that be feasible for this bag? Typically if they companies are competitors it is considered bad taste to have logo material when visiting customers, etc. If it is just internal it might be OK but it might raise some eyebrows.
      The superhero bag would be fine and most likely appreciated by many people.

      1. OldcoBaggins*

        No. The logo is screenprinted on the bag.

        Honestly, most people have not heard of my company. It’s kind of like In-N-Out and Shake Shack. They both sell burgers but are in different locations.

        1. ElspethGC*

          Could you sew a patch over it, or is that just too much effort for a slightly comfier bag?

        2. Rhiiiiiiannnnnnnon*

          I would see if you could find a large patch or something to cover it! Amazon and Etsy have lots of cool sew on and iron on options. I do this to most branded items I receive.

    7. StressedButOkay*

      I’d err on the side of caution here if the two companies are competitors, even if they don’t overlap much in the US market. Save the branded backpack for home and use the superhero messenger bag.

    8. AndersonDarling*

      Is the logo just embroidered or printed once? I’ve put patches over old company logos so I could keep using the swag. I have a cool beach bag that is now a Planet Express beach bag, and an old work cardigan that is now a “I Love Data” cardigan.

    9. The Man, Becky Lynch*

      Don’t use it if others are going to be seeing it, they are still competitors and may cause confusion and conflict of interests. If you’d just be shuffling your stuff around where no clients or others would really notice, whatever but this is exactly the situation where branding is important.

      Use your superhero messenger bag, that sounds quirky and cute more than straight up just using the competitors branded items.

    10. AnonyMs.*

      My feeling on company-branded swag is that it’s ok to use stationery (especially if it’s personalized with your name on it– can’t waste it!) and pens, but anything in the clothing realm is a no-go. Double for bags; use your current company’s backpack. Even though your clients are internal, you should get in the habit of using your current swag so that if you go to an external meeting/conference, you won’t accidentally take the old bag.

      When I left a client to go to a vendor, I had some swag from other vendors– competitors with my new company. I used a notebook but left it on my desk at all times. Sad, though, because that was such a great notebook.

    11. Lora*

      In biotech, I’m going to disagree with others – we’re an incestuous field, everyone knows everyone else and the first question you tend to get after “what’s your name?” is often, “so, where are you from?” (meaning, what was your last job, not where is your hometown). Or people already know from LinkedIn, and want to know if you know their friend Wakeen at Other Site, sort of thing. They might chuckle about it being a competitor, that’s about it.

      I currently have a collection of mugs from previous companies on my desk. It’s fine. Boss and colleagues all have their company logo vests/ fleeces from previous companies, it’s also fine.

      Now if you want to talk subversive and snotty logos, wear/carry a Schering or Cubist logo to a Merck thing, a Wyeth or Warner-Lambert item to a Pfizer thing, or a Shire or Millennium logo to a Takeda event.

    12. Anonforthis*

      I wouldn’t use the competitor’s backpack, but I work in biotech too and just yesterday saw someone carrying around a metal Star Wars lunchbox, so I’m thinking pretty much anything goes (as long as it’s not offensive, of course).

    13. Going Anon*

      This brings me back. A salesperson brought back this pen & pencil cup from a trade show. It was a competitor’s and he dropped it off as a joke. It was quite well designed, with compartments so you could put your writing utensils in without them getting all jumbled up. My office was a cubicle in the back and we never had clients in that part of the office so I took the cup, put it on my desk. It wasn’t even that visible. This was my first “real” job. So I didn’t think anything of it.

      I got called into see my manager about it with a “what the hell were you thinking?

      I think he was taken aback at my love for well designed office supplies and was nice enough about it though, and let me keep it as long as I obscured the competitor’s logo. I still have it…

  21. Brownie*

    Any advice for dealing with a Peter Principle manager when you’re at BEC stage with them?

    My boss was moved from temporary to permanent boss about a month ago after around a year of temporary boss duties. He can’t keep up with his emails, can’t organize and assign tasks, and has a very black and white way of thinking. All that and more results in clashes between him and me on a regular basis as what I need from a manager in order to succeed is someone who keeps on top of things and doesn’t constantly forget about what’s actually going on with me/the team and communicates what they’re doing as well. He also does things like unconsciously imply that I’m not competent because I don’t have the completely optional and out of date skills he uses all the time on the technical side and now that we’re hiring to replace him on the technical side he’s doubling down with the comparisons and implications that I’m not good at my technical job. Leaving for another job isn’t an option at this point and I’m beloved by my direct coworkers (who all think I’m technically skilled where I should be up a pay grade!) and grandboss up to the C-suite. I just canNOT get along with this specific manager and it’s reaching the point where the sound of his voice is enough to send my shoulders up to my ears in anticipation of more conflict or belittling.

    1. LKW*

      Give yourself a paper trail
      Every week list out the summary of things that you’ve requested, when you requested them, when you need a decision or action and the impact of not getting that issue resolved. Prioritize it. Note when you’ve met with him, any updates.

      Send it to him once a week. When he lets things slip – you have x weeks of reminders that he owes you this – that you can pull out and show to the grandboss.

      But no -he sounds like an ass. I can’t stay on top of stuff so I have several different meetings to connect and go through my action items, and the actions of the team so I can have some semblance of competency.

      1. Brownie*

        I tried doing once a week check-in meetings as well as status reports with him and that failed miserably. One of the major conflict points with those is that I’m involved in several different projects with other departments and at the C-suite level, so I’d go to give him an update on those and he’d get very flustered and start questioning me about why I was going behind his back/over his head. I was specifically invited and assigned to those projects, either by previous managers or by the C-suite, but explaining that still left him in defensive mode. My work focus is incredibly wide, his is very narrow, and I seem to have far more interactions outside of his hierarchy than he’s comfortable with me having. So many things get him into defensive mode and then he doubles down on “my way is the right way” stubbornness and then bam, conflict ahoy! So I’m limiting the amount of interactions I have with him so I’m not seen as a conflict-provoker, which really does nothing but push the inevitable blow-up to later.

        1. Chopsington*

          Can you simply change teams? Transfer to one of these other groups you have better relationships with?

          At the end of the day your options basically come down to…
          1. Leave the company
          2. Change teams
          3. Change him
          4. Get rid of him
          5. Live with it

          1 and 3 seem not an option. So change teams if you can, or deliberately go over his head, which may or may not succeed, only you know that. Or live with it but you’re also saying you can’t do that anymore. So basically 2 or 4.

    2. The Man, Becky Lynch*

      Sadly coping mechanisms rarely work when someone is such a jerk and you want to just leave.

      Continue to do your job with what you have been given. Document the processes taken. And limit time with this insufferable dillweed. Nothing will change him. Remind yourself he stinks and don’t take any stock in his BS barbs at your skills.

      1. Brownie*

        Yeah, I’m limiting time with him as much as I possibly can. He’s only a couple years from retirement, I just have to keep that end point in view. But in the meantime I’m starting to get neck/back muscle issues from tensing up every time I hear his voice and I’m starting to fantasize about switching work hours so I never have to ever interact with him without a paper trail.

    3. ten-four*

      UGH sympathy. I hear you on not wanting to get another job, but since you’re at the point where you’re getting neck/back problems from tensing up around this jag you might consider job hunting purely as a way to get some emotional distance. Telling yourself that leaving for another job *is* an option is a way to take power back in this situation. And you know what – you don’t have to stay. You might choose to, for all the reasons that you state – but you don’t have to.

      You don’t have to actually take another job if it’s offered but knowing that you have other options will almost certainly help put this dweeb in perspective. And shoot – maybe you’ll find an amazing dream job and decide it IS worth it to leave.

      Also probably you’ve tried this, but have you asked the C-suite/other execs you work with for tips on how to effectively manage your manager? Framing it up as wanting to succeed and being stuck on how to effectively support your manager demonstrates that you’re the grown-up in the room. And you might actually get good advice and/or back-up behind the scenes.

  22. Insignificant*

    In a recent Friday comment, someone said that answers to the “tell me about a time you solved a problem” interview question don’t have to be elaborate. I’m having problems thinking of answers for this question though because I’ve only ever been a low level employee where making suggestions would either be ignored or get me in trouble, so my examples are *extremely* small. Could you guys give me examples of small scale problem solving that would be appropriate? Or let me know if my examples below are okay?

    At one job I had to process large numbers of items from a group work queue and would end up holding 30-40 items in my personal queue that had to wait to be processed for various reasons. It was important to check on the items throughout the day because many were time sensitive. To save myself from having to open each item to look at the detailed comments I’d left, I figured out a way to tag them with keywords so I could just glance at them. This saved me a lot of time.

    At another job, I had a disorganized customer who was constantly asking about “missing” credits that they thought we owed them. These were often credit requests that had already been processed or that had been rejected from up to two years earlier. And they’d ask about the same ones again and again. I started to keep an excel sheet of every credit I ever processed for them and any they asked about. They started referring to the excel sheet instead of asking me, which saved me a lot of researching time.

    It feels like these examples are too small because they only required one step and only affected me.

    1. Colette*

      I like both of those examples, particularly since in both cases, no one would have thought anything of it if you had done nothing. That shows initiative, and your second example is about great customer service.

    2. voodoo*

      I think these are concrete and show initiative on your part. while they might not be big or structural, I think they’re fine examples.

    4. a tester, not a developer*

      Those are great examples! They’re appropriate to the level of work you were doing, and they helped others (the disorganized customer, and anyone who needed your processed items in a timely fashion).

    5. Blue*

      To be fair, if you’ve been largely in entry-level positions, I don’t think an interviewer will be expecting an example of a ground-breaking solution that transformed your whole office. What they probably will care about is you being able to recognize problem spots and roadblocks and taking the initiative to streamline or find work-arounds in order to make your own processes more efficient and better ensure that you are able to turn things around quickly, as expected. If you really only have control over your own work process and product, then show that you’ve done your best to improve those things and make them more efficient, and I think you’ve found some examples of just that.

    6. LKW*

      These are fine examples. You created something to make your work more efficient and enabled you to respond quickly.

      Other kind of problem: You were given a task with little instruction and no clear outcome -how did you get the answers you needed to do your work correctly?

    7. The Man, Becky Lynch*

      These are solid examples and exactly what I want to hear about your problem solving techniques.

      I think you’re really downplaying your abilities because you’ve had so little wiggle room but when you see a problem that’s within your scope [organizing things for a customer into an excel sheet was really above and beyond, most do not go that far], it’s a great example of your dedication to customer service as well.

      Your organization tricks to keep things in a timely fashion is a great one too.

      Most people do not have great stories in their pockets, even those with a lot of autonomy and range. I’ve ran entire businesses and I still don’t think of great spectacular stories because at the time I was only thinking of getting a job done, not realizing I should be patting myself on the back and pocketing that story for later ;)

    8. Ama*

      Honestly I would love those answers when I was hiring because these are specific, concrete examples that show that you take initiative to solve inefficiencies even when you don’t absolutely have to.

      When I was last hiring for an entry level position I kept getting these candidates who were fresh out of college and had only done internships who kept responding to my “tell me about a time when” questions by giving me very high level descriptions of projects the employer they’d interned with had completed (we’re talking company-wide initiatives where they’d talk about the “overall strategic plan” even though they clearly couldn’t have been the decision maker on that level). I’d even clarify with them that I was looking for work they’d done directly even if it was a simple project and they would just keep saying the same thing about these big projects and not giving me any specifics about what they’d actually done. I couldn’t get any sense of what kind of work experience they actually had.

      1. San Juan Worm*

        These are great answers. As a hiring manager, I’m looking for folks who can a) frame a problem appropriately b) evaluate the resources and tools they can use to solve it and c) provide status updates to their coworkers and supervisors. You’ve done all these things with (what you’ve characterized as) low-stakes problems, but the competencies you’ve demonstrated work for high-stakes problems, too. You mention that these examples “only affected you,” but I could see a way that they’d affect others, too! For example, if 30 projects are in your queue and 25 are a certain type of project, you could use that data to analyze whether that product’s workflow could benefit from process improvements.

    9. JulieCanCan*

      I agree with everyone else here- these are all really great examples of problem solving and forward thinking that I’d be happy to hear about from a candidate! You’re selling yourself short if you don’t feel confident with these – I think you are doing great!

  23. JustaTech*

    Just an absurd situation I had to share. Today I gave $10 for a puppy shower. Yes, a puppy shower. My coworker “Christina” decided that since our other coworker “Terri” is getting a dog (not a puppy) and has been very excited about it, we should make a donation to the rescue that Terri’s dog is coming from.

    Normally I would be all for this and might have even made some kind of dog-themed snack. But Terri has been talking about this dog for a month solid. And showing me every text and picture that the dog foster sends her, which is at least 3-5 times a work day. It is driving me up the wall.

    Don’t get me wrong, I like dogs! But even when we’re not swamped at work I really can’t take the constant interruptions. It’s gotten to the point of a parody of the kind of person who has to show you 5 million pictures and videos of their kids. Except it’s not a joke, and the dog isn’t even here yet!

    Earlier in the week I was mad. Now I’ve moved through that to enjoying the absurdity. Let’s see how next week is in the immediate days before this dog arrives.

    1. Anonygrouse*

      Oh my gosh, I feel for you. I used to work with someone who used to send out emails “from” her dogs. When she got a second dog, she went to another coworker who had twin toddlers to ask 100% in earnest for her advice as another single mom of 2. Honestly surprised there was not a puppy shower too. I love dogs, but yeesh!!

      1. AJK*

        We did have a “puppy shower” for a co-worker of mine once – two of our co-workers who were big dog lovers had been trying to convince her to get a dog for years, so when she finally gave in and adopted a puppy they threw her a “puppy shower.” Said co-worker was older and single so it’s possibly the only shower ever thrown for her, and in that context I thought it was a really nice idea.
        (Also, said co-worker loosened up quite a bit and seemed much happier with life in general after she got the dog, which we co-workers appreciated – she’d always seemed a little grouchy before)

        1. valentine*

          to ask 100% in earnest for her advice as another single mom of 2.
          Okay, but this is really sweet. She just wants to be a good mom.

          I thought this was going to be about a baby shower for a pregnant dog. Somewhere, there is a party planner royally pissed off because someone (perhaps more than one someone?) asked her if she does puppy showers. (And they just called and asked as any potential client might. They weren’t rude; she is.) I mean, even if you’re not a dog person, how great would it be to say you do all of a family’s events and to get dog people supporting your business?

          1. CmdrShepard4ever*

            I have been to at least one if not two dog birthday parties. I love dogs and I want a dog, but for various reasons I currently do not have the time to commit to owning a dog. Going to a dog birthday party I was able to play with a bunch of dogs and go home. They were happy, I was happy it was awesome.

          2. JulieCanCan*

            As a long time resident of Los Angeles, I can absolutely guarantee you that MANY party planners in this crazy city have not only been asked whether they handle parties (baby/puppy showers) for pregnant dogs, but they HAVE planned puppy showers for pregnant dogs.

            Lololololol. I love dogs and have one of my own, but I doubt any pregnant dogs are feeling slighted for not getting a puppy shower. :)

    2. Middle Manager*

      Oh, sympathies. We’re getting increasingly asked for money for baby showers, retirement parties, promotion parties…on and on. I would absolutely draw a line at a puppy shower.

      1. CmdrShepard4ever*

        I would love to have a puppy shower at work. But my idea for that would involve actual puppies coming down from the sky on parachutes and then getting to play with them for the rest of thew work day.

    3. Bee's Knees*

      My question is how often she’s going to bring in/show pictures of the dog dressed in ridiculous outfits and looking like it wants to run into the nearest road.

    4. Red Reader the Adulting Fairy*

      oh geez. My boss just adopted a puppy this weekend, she shared pictures with our team, and I sent her a couple of puppy toys that were very popular with my girls when they were little via Amazon (we’re remote and live three hours apart), but that’s bonkers.

    5. Kesnit*

      I don’t really see the issue. I’ve dealt with expecting parents who gush about the impending arrival – which is a lot longer off than getting a dog. (Now if you react the same to expecting parents, that is a different matter.)

      If I read your comment right, the money is going to the rescue group, not to Terri? If so, it’s for a good cause.

      1. JustaTech*

        The funny thing is that the expectant parents we’ve had here never talked about their incoming kid this much!

        Honestly it’s just that I’m exhausted with all the dog talk (Terri’s been looking for a dog for 6 months and it’s been a constant series of ups and downs) and that it feels really hard to say “please stop talking about the dog you don’t have yet” without being impossibly rude and cruel.

        I’m cheerfully giving my donation, it’s just kind of surreal.

        1. valentine*

          You can say, “I love your dog and that you’re rescuing them, but I’m all talked out on this. Looking forward to you bringing them home, though.”

    6. The Man, Becky Lynch*

      I mean…do you have baby showers at work? If you do, I think a shower for someone so dedicated to adopting a puppy is a sweet gesture. That eliminates the stress of “how unfair, I don’t plan on having kids/getting married, I’ll never have any special milestones to celebrate as a department” issue. If you don’t do showers in general, then that’s annoying to have it for this occasion, that’s for sure.

      The constant chatter is an issue because it’s not the topic, it’s the fact you aren’t getting the time you need to concentrate and do your job or just feel good in your workspace. I would eliminate the subject matter when you think about it and just say “Teri, you’re being super chatty and I really cannot talk right now.” instead of just being in the “Stop talking about your dog” zone, be in the “stop talking, about anything.” zone ;)

    7. Bluebell*

      I once took a puppymoon one week vacation and my coworkers sent me a card. It was the sweetest thing ever.

  24. Justin*

    So finishing up from previous comments.

    I have mentioned a coworker I was working closely with who eventually got let go for being, well, bad at the job.

    I also mentioned she was annoying but that that doesn’t really matter in terms of competence.

    Finally, I mentioned she had some “racial blind spots,” and a commenter said not to feel bad that a “racist incompetent” had lost their job.

    And I was about to be like, “but lo, she is not of the racists! She is only merely an ignorant.”

    And I realized, that’s what we’ve been conditioned to say/think, right? How many people in marginalized groups have to downplay examples of racism/sexism/ableism/etc, so long as an open slur isn’t used, just to get by at work?

    In the case of this person, her “blind spots” included repeatedly warning me that a client I was set to speak to was impossible to understand (he was Nigerian, and spoke very clear English), slipping into a strange AAVE-mimicking accent to be “funny” (but how could I prove that’s what she was doing? other colleagues do this too…), and trying to play oppresion olympics with me (I didn’t want to play… but she really wanted to tell me how it wasn’t as bad to be black as it was to be a Jewish woman; I have no opinion on this other than thinking it would have been best for her to shut up).

    My point is: how many of you can think to times where you realized later that something more subtle than rank discrimination had occurred, after the fact, and how much do we think it really weighs on us without us knowing?

    In a way, I find this sort of nonsense, because it’s hardly illegal, is harder to deal with than the clear cut times I’ve heard slurs or whatever, because no one thinks it matters.

    Thanks for coming to my TED talk.

    1. Justin*

      Amusingly, her insistence that the Nigerian client was hard to understand may have tipped off our boss to her nonsense since our boss is a black lady and said, repeatedly, “I have no problems understanding him.”

      So… she’s the type of person who if told she was doing something wrong would have said she’d’ve voted for Obama a third time if she could, and then tried to serve me some tea.

    2. Sloan Kittering*

      Yeah, this person sounds bad on the merits. I’m glad they experienced consequences. It’s confusing when you know them as a person and they’re not like, monstrous, so it feels dissonant to be like, “X person is racist” but – those are the facts. Also consider that what was tolerable to you may well have been intolerable to someone from a different group or that they were worse behaved in a different circle.

      I feel ya, because i have made so many excuses for creepy creepy guys where I was like, “oh they’re just CONFUSED!!” and then it turns out they were not actually all that confused or honestly should have known better, and the parts I knew about where kind of the tip of the iceberg.

      1. Justin*

        Well, it wasn’t really tolerable, though, so much as I’m so inured to that sort of thing from more or less always being The Black Guy In White Spaces, you know? But yeah. I’m just glad she was… bad enough to be let go on the merits.

        And yeah, I’ve had a LOT of coworkers who have been lowkey, standard-American-levels-of-racist, and it’s just so normal it’s not worth the fight. I can imagine it’s the same or worse for women in that respect, though I can’t obviously speak to it directly myself.

        1. Librarian of SHIELD*

          I feel like it’s harder when you’re working with someone who has a pretty firm grasp on where the line for “HR must be told of this immediately!” lies. You end up second guessing most of what they say, because they know how not to cross that line. It feels like telling someone about it would result in them thinking you’re making a big deal out of nothing, but you know it’s not nothing, and the amount of documentation you’d have to do to prove the pattern would 1) take up so much time and brain space and 2) make you feel like a creepy stalker with a grudge.

          In any case, I’m glad you’re not working with this person anymore. I’m sure there are other ways that racism and microaggressions are still in play (because aren’t they always?), but at least this particular source of badness is out of your life.

    4. Anony-miss*

      I’ve experienced this with a co-worker before – she pretty consistently made comments that were just within the plausible deniability of “Well, I’m sure she didn’t mean it that way!” but I knew she did. Finally she said something that was overt enough, and I went to HR. They advised me to start recording everything to establish the patter of behavior, which I did. She started being much more careful around me after I called her out about the overt incident, however, so I never had anything to else to record. That reinforces my thought that she knew what she was saying and was trying to test how much she could get away with.

      In a way, I guess I consider that a small win – she got the message that our office, or at least me as a coworker, was not a place where people found her comments acceptable.

    5. MarfisaTheLibrarian*

      And if it’s helpful, rephrase it as “this person acts in racist ways.” Which is, basically “being a racist,” but doesn’t let anyone (including your own brain!) argue. Racist speech is a racist act, whether it comes from conscious bigoted beliefs or covert racial bias.

      1. Sloan Kittering*

        That is a great tip! I struggle sometimes to deal with the dissonance of calling out someone for bad behavior when I know other good things about them, this frames the issue in a helpful way to me.

        1. Justin*

          Yeah, this is what I’m trying to do.

          I’m actually studying race/racism in Englist Language Teaching in my school program (I’m busy!), and this gives away my identity if people bother to search but also I don’t care. And boy, people have a lot of FEELINGS when you ask about race.

      2. I Took A Mint*

        I find this really helpful too. It goes around all my feelings about “But I like this person and don’t want to think of them as Bad” “I think they just made a mistake, I don’t think they actually think that way” “Am I a bad person if…” “If someone was racist in the past can they ever change” “What magic phrase could I say to change their minds…”

        It’s much more helpful for me to focus on how they do/say/act instead of assuming what is in their hearts (which we will never know and it’s not for me to judge). But I can respond to what is said or done.

    6. Anonymous Educator*

      I honestly don’t expend too much energy distinguishing between malicious racists and ignorant well-intentioned racists. If they’re ignorant and don’t bother to educate themselves to be better, what does the ignorance excuse them from?

      I’m hurt either way. Or others around me are hurt. So there’s only so much (i.e., very little) I care if it came from malice or ignorance.

    7. fposte*

      I was just watching a Key and Peele thing with Paul F. Tompkins where they choose between “Racist or Really Need to Tell You Something”–some of the scenarios were Julianne Hough in blackface for costume, Gwyneth Paltrow using the soft n word on social media, Kanye West wearing the confederate flag, etc. And while it was a comic take, I thought it was interesting that they really seemed to reserve “racist” for intent, not just effect. And I think it’s similar to what you’re talking about–that there’s so much of the “ignorant”/”blind spot” racism/sexism/ableism that it’s ambient and it can take a while to put the components together in one person enough to say “Wow, that was actually really bad.”

      1. boo bot*

        I think that’s why it’s often so useful to think in terms of “that action is racist,” rather than “that person is racist.”

        Especially because, if one consciously thinks, “huh, that was racist,” every time coworker does or says something racist, one might find oneself forming a well-founded opinion that she is, in fact, racist.

        1. Sloan Kittering*

          it would also help me to self-police better, if I was able to say that my action had a racist impact and I need to do better – it could undermine that ego-defensiveness / shutdown that comes up where I’m like, I’m not a bad person, I worked hard! etc etc etc.

          1. Sloan Kittering*

            (not that i am ever going around being deliberately racist, just that we are all committing racist acts all the time when we live and work in racist systems etc)

          2. Justin*

            Absolutely. I had this revelation re: sexism when I was in my early 20s, when a friend said I had things to work on. I was… defensive, because, early 20s, but I asked her to tell me what if she wouldn’t mind.

            I hope I have corrected these things, but we always need to re-up to check.

        2. fposte*

          Yes, I think there’s some confusing slippage on the word. I have white friends who were 1970s progressives and haven’t got much of the word since then; the racism they encountered in their activism then was hostile and overt. And between the fact that they’re not saying anything like what they’d heard from the 1970s racists and also the fact that they feel they’re on the right side because of their activism, they don’t realize that the stuff they’re saying can be, in 2019 terms, kind of racist too.

          1. ElspethGC*

            This comes up a lot of the time with homophobia and other LGBTQ-adjacent bigotry, as well. You seem to get a lot of people who were on our side during, say, the AIDS crisis or when it came to passing laws to make our sex lives legal, but who don’t like the idea of us being able to marry because we should just be grateful for what we have, it’s come so far since the 70s and 80s, they don’t want to beat us up in the streets, so why on earth would we ever call them homophobic?! Because to them, the homophobia that they’re so proud of opposing was, you know, out-and-out mob violence and beating people up in the middle of the street. That’s not what *they’re* doing, *they* just don’t understand why we can’t be happy with civil partnerships and feel the need to start infringing on marriage as well…

            We’re now getting the secondary version, where people support same-gender marriage but don’t understand that it isn’t the be-all and end-all of allyship and activism…

            1. Justin*

              Yeah, seems legit to me.

              I personally had to sit down and educate myself on trans rights and nonbinary issues when I was younger. I had no actual antipathy, I just was ignorant and needed to learn. I am sure I was defensive at first (because 23 year olds will be that way).

              It’s not comfortable to be wrong. But that’s kinda a big part of being an adult, right?

            2. fposte*

              Yes; the 2019 approach is more like “we’ve all got work to do in some areas.” As Justin and Sloan note above, it can be hard to hear information that what we’re doing is a problem and correcting isn’t easy, but being cool in some other area or in some other time isn’t a pass on everything we do.

              (I hope the people involved won’t mind my noting that there’s a really nice example of an interaction downthread–a commenter noted that somebody has a username that made a colleague uncomfortable, and the person with that username said oh, that’s not good, of course I’ll change it. All very civil and effective.)

              1. Justin*

                We’re all part of the problem but can be part of the solution if we so choose.

                But you get to the word “problem” and some people implode and then we have to spend time cleaning it up.

          2. Red Sky*

            This essentially describes my in-laws in a nutshell. They occasionally engage in what I call Casual Racism, nothing super offensive or obvious on the surface but if you dig deeper it’s definitely there. They get really defensive if you point it out, (believe me I’ve tried). They were active in the civil rights movement of the ’60s and ’70s but at some point stopped learning or listening and seem to think they’re earlier activism gives them a free pass and they couldn’t possibly be racist. I’ve been thinking about getting them (and myself) the book So You Want To Talk About Race by Ijeoma Oluo recommended on Capt Awkward by guest columnist Lenee earlier this week.

      2. Justin*

        I remember that skit.

        It’s true that it’s all racist but that there’s a spectrum defined by intent or lack thereof. But to the recipient(s), it all hurts after a while.

        1. fposte*

          Oh, absolutely. I just think it was interesting that both you and, IMHO, Key and Peele (who don’t have to be the arbiters of anything; I just really like them) were at short notice more forgiving than I think we might be in light of the full picture and time to consider (and I also thought that was kind of a bogus dichotomy they got handed–the thing you can Really Need to Tell Somebody is that their costume is racist). I think that’s probably baseline human to some extent–if my co-worker for sure accidentally brushed my boob with his hand my life is *so* much easier than if it was on purpose.

    8. The Man, Becky Lynch*

      Yeah, not all racist comments are the acts of klan members or other extremes/hate groups, most are exactly like this woman instead. They’re ingrained in our society and we’re having a helluva time flushing them out because of the pushback of “I’m not racist, how dare you ever say I’m racist, I’m going to dig my feet in and start my tantrum.”

      It’s their lack of emotional intelligence and exposure to the world in my experience, which sometimes can be fixed with more education and correction.

      However you say others mock other accents? No, that’s not at all acceptable and your other coworkers are kind of really horrible as well, this isn’t grade school. Do they also turn up their eyes when they’re mocking an Asian accent just for the additional fun jollies? Ick!

      1. Justin*

        “They’re ingrained in our society and we’re having a helluva time flushing them out because of the pushback of “I’m not racist, how dare you ever say I’m racist, I’m going to dig my feet in and start my tantrum.””

        The “I’m going to speak to the manager (of racism)” attitude.

        Well, more like put on an AAVE voice when trying to connect with our (adult) students. They think it’s okay because the students laugh, and I figure the students are, like me, just trying to ignore it. (It’s one guy. I’ve already brought up his insensitive comments on other things, so bringing this up seems like I’m being all BEC… which I kind of am with him).

        1. Penguin*

          Yeah, I had a “Oh s**t” moment when I learned that laughing is something we humans sometimes do as a “gotta move this circumstance along because it is (or might become) threatening” reaction (which can be different from “nervous laughter”) and not /just/ a “oh that’s funny” response.

          I hope your coworkers learn this sooner than later, and change their behavior.

        2. Lora*

          I’m not sure if I should be horrified because she’s trying to adjust her own speech to match how she thinks people of color talk or if I should be horrified because she’s making fun of how people talk but either way it’s just icky and depressing.

          I’m imagining someone trying to do a version of like… there’s this dopey voice I use to narrate my ex’s thought process, and that’s sort of what I’m picturing when you describe her trying to do an AAVE accent to socialize with students. It’s just…bad on so, so many levels.

    9. Canadian Natasha*

      I think your former coworker is related to one of my coworkers. Except the accent she uses for laughs is the local First Nations’ way of speaking and her other go-to offensive remarks involve talking about how hard Indian or Pakistani people are to understand (customer service work is part of our jobs) and *every single time she sees a person with african ancestry* making a point of mentioning to us (not in front of them) just How Very Black their skin is. She is absolutely convinced she is not racist and has blown off any remarks I’ve made to her about her comments. It isn’t enough that my managers will do anything about it either, unfortunately. #facepalm

    10. VioletCrumble*

      I’m generally not that sensitive to things but one time I was in a team meeting when our supervisor and a co-worker were going on and on about how they couldn’t tell the asian clients apart; they also couldn’t understand a word they said (of course they then went on to “imitate” them talking) Note- most of these spoke perfectly clear accentless english.

      I interrupted them saying that I was extremely uncomfortable with this conversation. As they were talking about individuals who were very distinct in appearance and who’s countries of origin ranged from Korea to China to Japan to Singapore.. that it seemed odd they couldn’t tell them apart.

      They kept going on with the conversation to the point where I was tearing up.. over the years there have been quite a few comments/asides like this and of course they always try to pass it off as just a joke… sigh… come on people it’s 2019.. It just amazed me that the others in the group weren’t also taken aback.

  25. Looney Lovegood*

    I work for a small, friendly, relatively close knit company, and I’m currently one of two most junior people on my team, both of us hired at about the same time. A position opened up at the level just above where I am and “Trish” (my fellow junior team member and my closest friend at work) and I both applied for the promotion. My boss interviewed a few external candidates, so there is a chance that neither Luna nor I will get the promotion, but our company has a strong preference for hiring from within, and Luna and I are both qualified for the job.

    We will likely find out the final decision next week, and I’m anxious about what will happen socially if/when one of us gets the job over the other. We currently share and office and spend time together outside of work, and even though we are both pretty chill people, I worry that it will be awkward and strange for our friendship if one of us becomes senior to the other. This is both of our first jobs out of grad school (we actually went to grad school together, though we weren’t as close then) and we’ve really been partners and support to each other as we have grown more into our roles and gotten a taste for our industry. I know this kind of thing is bound to happen when you have a corporate job, but any advice on how to best navigate your friend getting the promotion you wanted/vice versa would be much appreciated!

    1. Middle Manager*

      If either of you get it, it will definitely change your relationship. I was in the exact situation and got the promotion. My friend did not take it well at all. Looking back, I wish we had had a conversation about it before the decision was announced and agreed to support each other as the boss regardless of who got selected. I don’t know if it would have helped, but we didn’t talk about it until after the announcement was made and by that time she was super angry/disappointed, so it was really unproductive.

      Even if it goes well for the two of you though, you’ll probably need to cut back on out of office hanging out. You can still be friendly, but who ever is the boss will need some distance for holding the other person accountable, etc. And you wouldn’t want it to look like the boss was playing favorites.

      1. Looney Lovegood*

        I guess I should have clarified–whoever gets the position will not be in a managerial position over the other in any way. The way our team is structured, we have the manager and then a handful of other team members who all report to the manager, but none have any authority over the others. Trish and I are both assistants to the whole team, so the only thing that would change is that it’s possible that whoever gets promoted to an associate position may ask whoever remains an assistant to help out on projects. That being said, it’s not as common for the team members in the associate position to need help from the assistants, especially right after the promotion.

        1. valentine*

          Is Trish the same person as Luna?

          Be happy for her if she gets it and expect the same from her. It doesn’t sound like you have to change your behavior, but if it’s relevant, be wary of favoring her. If you get it (and I hope you get it; I really hope you get it) and she seems hurt or sulks, give her time to mourn, but don’t feel you have to hide your joy or to match her. Just carry on professionally. If you know her to not weather this sort of thing well, prepare for the friendship to suffer, but don’t feel bad. It’s her choice and you can always be friendly, if not friends.

          1. JulieCanCan*

            Yeah I wondered who Luna was – or where Trish went.

            Either way I hope that if an internal applicant gets promoted, it won’t effect the working relationship (and ideally the friendship won’t be effected).

            It’s hard to navigate this type of thing, especially being new in the working world.

  26. Counting Down the Days*

    I have been in the unfortunate position of counting down the days at my current job until I can leave. I’m trying to get to at least a year and then start job searching, meaning my tenure might be as long as a year and half or two years total. (They’re not hateful, I just don’t like the culture here or the work I’m doing, and it feels like a step backwards in terms of responsibility / growth. Also, they said they offered work from home but clearly do not. Morale is low.). They are a small nonprofit so I really want to get through a year for the benefit of our mission, I know they’ve had terrible turnover in the past.

    I haven’t really gotten through a month since I started without being tempted to search the job postings – I’m coming up on eight months now.

    Any tips to keep up good spirits as I get through this waiting period? I just try to focus on good things going on outside my job, show up and put in my eight hours as best I can, keep my head down, etc. I’m not really used to approaching my career this way and I worry I’m developing bad habits.

    1. Rat Racer*

      Just a thought: it can take a long time to find a new job, and if you’re close-ish to a year, I don’t think there’s any harm in starting to put some feelers out there. Especially if it makes you feel better than holding your breath until your 1-year anniversary.

      1. OP*

        You’re so right, it took me forever to get this job sadly (like, a year) – I’m just balancing the fact that I know 12 months is not some magical cutoff where now it’s all good to leave – two years would actually be better – and I worry employers will look at my resume and see that I’m searching before even a year is up and I immediately toss my application. But it probably doesn’t hurt to try.

      1. OP*

        Solidarity! I just keep telling myself that things could be worse! I’m not badly paid for what I’m doing, and my workplace isn’t abusive, and although I worry that my career isn’t progressing I don’t think this move has completely destroyed it. And there are good things in my life going on outside of work. I don’t dislike my coworkers. I just keep thinking of the ways I could have better used this year (or two years by the time I’m out of here!). Life is short, this is a waste of time.

        1. wondHRland*

          As long as you don’t have a BUNCH of short tenure jobs, one shouldn’t matter that much – if they ask why you’re looking already, you can say it wasn’t as good a fit as you thought, or the work at home opportunity wasn’t avalable after all, or something innocuous along those lines. Every one gets it wring once in a while, and we’re all entitled to a mulligan. Start looking now, don’t close yourself off from opportunities. Just try tobe doubly sure for the next job that it’s the right place at this time.

    3. The Man, Becky Lynch*

      Screw waiting. Look at those job postings. You’re missing out by imposing a 12 month time. Be picky but keep your eyes open. Worse case you try and don’t get the job and you’re still sitting at square one.

      1. JulieCanCan*

        Totally agree with The Man – why hold out if you know you don’t want to be there? I would never question a candidate’s reasoning for trying to find a better fit or a place where they could be happier and more satisfied.

        Remember, the perfect job for you could be posted at this very moment – and if you’re not looking, someone else will get the opportunity YOU are supposed to land. Someone said this to me once and I really took it to heart. I immediately started putting out feelers and landed my current job, which I really like, and I almost missed applying for it because I didn’t think “it was the right time to be looking.”

    4. Small but Fierce*

      No real advice, just commiseration from another month counter. I turned on my “open to opportunities” option on LinkedIn when I hit a year and a half at this company (6 months in this job), but I don’t plan to look in earnest until year 2 since I didn’t make it to 2 years at my last company. Hopefully our next roles allow for more growth and opportunity!

  27. Laid off and feeling low*

    Well, it happened. I had suspicions for about a week but did not find out I lost my job and my company had shut down until I saw the news on Twitter. My boss (the President of our branch) made multiple calls to the corporate office that all went unanswered. We all received impersonal, form letters at the end of the day confirming the news and telling us we had been terminated. No severance and barely any warning. The whole thing was despicable and I still feel sick to my stomach thinking about how things were handled.

    Obviously I need to find a new job, but the truth of the matter is this whole experience has jaded me. I gave up a lot to come here – I had a decent job with great pay and benefits, and dropped it to pick up and move to a new city with my husband. I didn’t know what I was getting into, but my most recent job ended up being pretty cool experience. Regardless, I worked a lot of hours and weekends, did a lot of strange things that definitely fell under “other duties as assigned.”

    I don’t want the long hours anymore. I don’t really want any surprises. I want a decent job with a real 9-5 schedule where I can feel like it’s OK to take PTO if I need to. How do I find a job like this? I’m still fairly new to this city and all my contacts have recently lost their jobs, too. We just bought a house and at least my husband has a stable job, so we are staying put for now.

    I’ve already updated my resume and applied to a half dozen jobs yesterday, one of which has already turned me down. I’m feeling so dejected by this whole experience I don’t know how to proceed. I could use some advice or words of wisdom if anyone has been in a similar situation.

    1. T. Boone Pickens*

      I’m really sorry that you’re going through this. I’d take a bit of time to collect myself and really think about what I’m looking for in my next job and make a list (for whatever reason writing things down makes it more concrete for me, your mileage may vary). I’d use your husband as a sounding board as well to get his feedback. Kudos to you on getting your resume back updated! I’d also do some research on recruiters in your area that specialize in your industry and reach out to them as they should know what the market looks like for compensation, employers, etc. Also, depending on your industry, there may be some free networking groups you can check out at local coffee shops, etc that may help.

      Good luck!

      1. valentine*

        Finding out via Twitter is so awful. You deserve so much better.

        Jobs: Library or other government? Medical-office receptionist? What are you happy or content to do for 40 hours a week? Maybe you want to prioritize a short and lunch options. Take into account how all the pieces fit into how you feel about a job and the work.

    2. AndersonDarling*

      If you are in a biggish city, have you looked into the healthcare market? Their support teams (analysts, marketing, finance) have good benefits and regular hours.
      Good luck to you! And stay strong!

    3. Iris Eyes*

      When this happened to one of my loved ones they had a job “wake” with their former coworkers. I think it helped get much needed closure. Since they had relatively similar jobs they were able to help each other job search and provide references. I think they talked at least as much the first week or two as they normally did when working together. A couple months on and they don’t talk as much to my knowledge but I think it was generally beneficial. All that to say don’t discount you contacts just because they are out of work. They are more likely to come across open positions since they are looking. There are also times where a company is looking to fill multiple positions during a period of growth so once one person gets in the door they can bring multiple people with them.

      Yeah wanting a job that has hard start and stop hours is totally normal. And they definitely exist, but maybe not in all industries.

    4. Seeking Second Childhood*

      Invest time in yourself to find out what you really want to do and look into unexpected ways to use your skills.
      When I was caught up in a 200-person layoff, I was lucky enough that they provided us with outplacement services — more directed self-analysis & practice than I’d gotten working my way through things like “What Color is Your Parachute”. I was able to take a bit of a diagonal turn in career path by learning to discuss my experiences in ways that let HR/interviewers see their relevance to an adjacent role.
      Also consider finding a branch of Toastmasters — because nothing prepares you for speaking off the cuff than speaking off the cuff. And there are no winners&losers at Toastmasters, just people who want to get better saying things out loud. (I’m very new to it.)

    5. VioletCrumble*

      I’m so sorry that happened to you… A few years back, I was off on a vacation day and just happened to turn on the noon news and found out that my company had closed the office and laid off all staff earlier that day. Apparently corporate flew out, clocked everyone out, and informed everyone they were laid off and paychecks would be fedexed sometime in the next week… (We’re in CA and paychecks are due at the time of layoff…)
      Classy!

      But honestly, in hindsight, it was a good thing for me.. I was able to move into a new career path that is more stable and pays better!

      Take time to grieve… Take care of you… and Best wishes on the job hunt!

    6. Free Meerkats*

      If your goal is a stable schedule with no problems taking earned time off and you are willing to give some on pay, look at local government. Every city has it, almost every type of profession is needed, the benefits (especially PTO) are usually above average.

    7. ten-four*

      I am horrified on your behalf! What a foul way to manage people. I’ve been through something semi-similar – I was called in off maternity leave to be laid off in person when they shut down our office.

      Iris Eyes has the right idea with the “job wake” idea. I got laid off again maybe four years ago, and the key difference between that lay-off and the first one was that I circled up with my fellow layoffs. We had a wake (although we didn’t call it that), and one of my closest colleagues and I met up and basically coached each other through updating our resumes/portfolios.

      The resume partnership was really critical, because we were both super crushed by life but we had each other’s backs. So she’d feel try to downplay her work and I’d be able to say NOPE I was there, you did A and got to B outcome, you innovated C, and you won D. And then I’d get all self-conscious and down on my own work and she was like NOPE I was there you did X and Y and as a result Z.

      Based on the way you describe your job and your previous work I’d be dollars to donuts that there’s ways you could frame up your resume so that it would tell a really compelling story about your career. It’s awfully hard to do that self-storytelling in the best of times, and immediately after a layoff it’s the Worst Possible Time. Find a buddy! Make it easier on each other! Seriously, we did most of it in one afternoon at a coffee shop and it was a game changer.

      And yeah, feel free to just feel rotten too. And build in lots of time for taking meticulous care of yourself, as Carolyn Hax says. I had to work out some of that first layoff in therapy, and the second one too! My husband and I have both lost our jobs tons of times since the first big crash of our adult lives, and it sucks, and also we’ve both been able to go on and have really cool careers. You will too.

    8. Easily Amused*

      I’m so sorry! Not sure where you are or how big your company is but there are laws about laying off large groups of people (if it’s over a certain percentage of the company, they have to give 60 days notice and I’m not sure about severance but it might be worth looking into). I know of a company in Florida that went bankrupt and laid everyone off with no notice. Lawsuits ensued. I’m not a litigious person by nature but if you deserve severance, you should get it. I wish you the best of luck in your job search. For years I worked 60-80 hour weeks and wanted to find a job with normal hours. I had to switch careers to do it but I love the 9-5 job I have now. You can do it!

  28. Tips to help a coworker who I will manage one day be quicker not only in the speed their work but how they comprehend situations?*

    I will manage my team by the end of the year. I have a coworker who has been in this position for 2.5 years. He is very dedicated to the job and as we have high turnover in our department, it’s important to have someone with that dedication and loyalty. One of his weaknesses is that he’s about 60% slower than the rest of the team, cannot understand situations or new processes easily whether they be simple or complex, and does not have the ability to switch between tasks without taking an hour to gear up. We work 90% with the sales team and all day they have “urgent” requests and it’s important for relationship building and trust that we provide them with what they need quickly and efficiently. A normal request that is not complicated will take myself or the rest of the team 30 minutes tops to complete where my coworker will spend up to 2 hours on it. A complex report I request will take my coworker 3-4 hours to complete while it will take my coworker 1-2 days.

    This is the opposite of how I operate, and I don’t have any personal experience with this, so I am turning to Ask a Manager for tips on how you’ve achieved this from a manager perspective and how you’ve accomplished this from an employee perspective. My Ask a Manger voice says to hold them accountable for the work that they need to do a specific amount of time which yes of course that is necessary but what I am looking for is advice and tips on how to guide him to think and work quicker.

    1. NicoleK*

      He’s been in his position for 2.5 years and is slow, has comprehension issues, and etc. HE’S NOT GOING TO CHANGE. If he does make changes, it will be minimal. I work with someone like your coworker, soon to be direct report. My coworker has been in her role for 6 YEARS and counting. She is still slow as molasses, terrible at technology, slow to adapt to new systems, and takes 3 times as long to do her tasks.

      1. Soupspoon McGee*

        This. You can’t make him think or understand any faster. You can spell out what you need from him. You can ask him to write a manual, spreadsheet, decision tree, or something that spells out steps to take so he can see patterns in how to approach something new.

    2. fposte*

      If it’s because he struggles cognitively with producing faster, it’s going to be tough to speed him up. Give him (or work with him to design) processes and templates to follow as much as possible, to lower the cognitive load; they’ll also be helpful to get new hires up to speed. Identify what task transition should look like–what’s he doing in that hour between tasks? Can you work with him to identify the steps of transition between tasks?

      Additionally, Could you get somebody better in to replace him, and would you be able to do that? Do “dedication and loyalty” mean something more workplace significant than “doesn’t call out on short notice and hasn’t left yet”? Are they valuable enough to make up for an employee who isn’t delivering at the important task of providing the sales team with what they need quickly and efficiently? IOW, if the employee you see is the employee you will always get, what do you want to do?

    3. Joy*

      Agreed that he is not going to change. This doesn’t mean he’s bad at all work, but if 90% of your work requires rapid turnaround and task switching, unless there’s enough of the remaining 10% to make that his full-time job, he is in the wrong position and the only solution will be to move him out.

      I’ve worked on teams with a mix of “sprinters” (me) and “marathoners”, and the path to victory has always been to make sure work is divided in a way that suits those work habits. My most marathon-y colleagues were also generally much better than me at progressing long-term projects, or dealing with complex research tasks, or other such work where long periods of focus is beneficial, so it wasn’t a matter of assigning them “worse” work but assigning them the work that they’d be the best at. But as I said, it doesn’t sound like there’s a ton of work like that for your team.

      1. Super Dee Duper Anon*

        I do wonder if there might be some sort of creative way to slightly restructure the role to compensate for the coworker’s shortcomings – if replacing the coworker is 100% off the table. If requests could be sort of classified into a couple of different buckets or maybe urgency levels – then coworker could made the designated person for a certain type of request.

        I know this wouldn’t work for all roles/jobs, just trying to throw out ideas.

    4. Kathenus*

      Is there any way to find out what part of the task/process is slowing him down? It could be that he’s average speed for much/most of the task but there’s one portion that he struggles with. If you can figure out something like this it might allow either targeted training, modifying that portion or finding a process to streamline/facilitate that section, or a workaround solution (someone else helping with just that portion, for example, if feasible). Not knowing details it’s hard to say if this approach would help, but it’s worth considering in case it might be beneficial to help him improve.

    5. valentine*

      This would make a good standalone letter.

      does not have the ability to switch between tasks without taking an hour to gear up.
      This sounds like a killer. He’s overall just not a good fit. He seems suited to something he can hyperfocus on.

    6. Elizabeth*

      Having worked with a number of people who are on the Autism Spectrum, I wonder if this is the case here – the telling line being around struggling to switch between tasks.
      Talk to him directly about the time / speed differences. He may have no idea or may have a completely different take on it.
      Take some of the typical activities that he does too slowly and put the scenario and the outcome in front of him and ask him to talk you through how he does it. If he is on the spectrum he may be constantly returning to the instructions to make sure he is following the “rules”.
      Try not to have “rules”, even try to avoid guidelines. Give outcome goals and a time frame and allow all staff to work out their own processes – and make this a very overt part of your office culture.
      If you can’t do all of this, try giving him some timeframes and see what happens. He might find he can speed up when it is a clear requirement of his role.

  29. Lucette Kensack*

    How to handle the natural consequences of a flexible workplace?

    (I wrote this in to Alison last year and just found it in my email archive. I’d be interested to hear how folks respond!)

    I’ve been thinking about how managers should handle the natural consequences of healthy flexibility and respecting varied abilities and work styles.

    Some examples of what I mean, from my experience as well as other friends I’ve talked to about this:

    1) An employee negotiated a four-day workweek for health reasons and does not work on Wednesdays. Consequence: meetings that involve her are more complicated to schedule.

    2) An employee negotiated a flexible work-from-home arrangement and his colleagues can never predict when he’ll be in the office and when he’ll be working from home/a coffeeshop/etc. Consequence: This sometimes means that he has to call in to a meeting that the organizer thought he would be present for, or is difficult to track down for signatures/etc.

    3) An employee has to leave at 3:00 p.m. every day to pick up his kids from daycare. He logs back on in the evenings and works a full 40-hour week, but his role is one that often fields requests with quick turnaround deadlines from higher-ups in the late afternoons. Consequence: Because he’s never physically present at 4:30, he doesn’t help carry to load on these kinds of requests.

    4) An employee doesn’t use basic technology well. Consequence: the rest of the staff has to work around him in ways that make their work more complicated (he won’t enter notes into a customer database, so someone has to do his data entry for him; he can’t format a printout that doesn’t use standard 8.5×11 paper, so someone has to do his printing for him).

    5) A junior employee frequently works fewer than 40 hours a week – comes in between 9:30 and 10:00 (which is ok on its own), takes a 90 minute lunch, leaves promptly at 5:01 every day. He’s on top of his workload, but he’s in an organization where the senior leaders value face time and look askance at empty desks. Consequence: His noticeable absence degrades the overall impression that senior management has of his team and his direct manager.

    6) An employee whose team has been struggling with overwork and burnout establishes a strict 40-hour policy for her direct reports; they’re salaried, but her policy is that they won’t work for than 40 hours a week. Consequence: The hourly administrative staff that supports the team picks up the slack; they are paid overtime for their extra hours, but they have a different manager that doesn’t have the same 40-hour policy and they don’t have the capital to draw the same firm boundary that the rest of the team does.

    7) An employee establishes firm boundaries around the kind of work that she will do, and won’t agree to anything beyond that. Consequence: Other team members have to take on the projects that she won’t do.

    8) An employee has a challenging home life and is using FMLA to navigate some caregiving issues. The nature of her personal challenges mean that she often has to call out or leave immediately with no notice, and the amount she’s able to work in a given week varies significantly and won’t level out (or be at 40 hours a week) for the indefinite future. Consequence: Because she can’t be counted on to get anything done on a deadline, it doesn’t make sense to assign certain kinds of work to her, which means that other staff have to take on that workload with no sense of when it will resolve.

    There are performance issues at play in some of these examples, to be sure. But all of the employees in these examples are valued enough that – at least in theory – the flexibility they are offered is worth the tradeoffs if that’s what it takes to keep them on staff. But put it all together and it’s endlessly frustrating for the other people who have to do extra work or make complicated arrangements to accommodate this flexibility.

    How do, or how should, managers navigate all of this?

    1. Jimming*

      Good managers wouldn’t let the flexibility impact workload, or if it does, make it clear how it will impact other people. I once worked with someone who did the 4/10 schedule, which meant I took on more work Fridays when she was out. But she took on more work when she was in the rest of the week – so we were both doing the same amount of work but at different times. Also Fridays were the slowest day, Monday the busiest, so there’s no way they would have let her do this schedule by taking off Monday instead of Friday.

      The FMLA/unexpected leave is trickier. Coworkers don’t need the details, but if they know so&so is out due to an illness/caregiving I’d hope they’d a) have basic compassion for that person, and b) talk with their manager to make a plan for their workload. Maybe no one can step in to help, but a good manager would help them prioritize so they know what to focus on and what to drop when short-staffed.

      I also recently went thru this when two coworkers went on leave around the same time for different reasons – I went over priorities with my manager so I knew what to focus on, they knew what wouldn’t get done for awhile.

    2. Yorick*

      I think #4 is different than most of these others. “Flexibility” is usually in terms of schedule or allowing someone to work from home, not to make coworkers do the parts of their job that they don’t care to learn. This is a situation where the boss can give him whatever support he needs to get up to speed with the technology, but he does need to learn to use the note system and start doing it himself.

      2. Kathleen_A*

        Absolutely. Using those tools is a part of his job, so he *must* learn to use them properly or he’s not doing his job. It is truly that simple.

    3. C*

      I think, as managers and coworkers, it helps to recognize that us messy meatsacks are always going to have situations that make life less than ideal for others in our lives (and vice versa, from time to time) and do your best to roll with it. Corporate culture of squeezing every miserable dime out of employees to further enrich the shareholders and executives is far more of a problem than someone needing flexibility in their schedules as they manage whatever’s going on their lives outside of work.

      Practically speaking, take it case by case, and try to ensure no one person ends up shouldering the burden for the issues of the group. For the guy who leaves early but works later, what tasks can his coworkers leave for him while they do the more urgent requests? Can work be shifted that way? For the guy who is flexibly out of the office, just make sure everyone puts dial-ins on meetings he’s on, and maybe see if you can get him to commit to being in on, say, Wednesday mornings every week for things that require face time, or at least make it clear that “flexible” doesn’t mean “full-time remote” and he’ll have to let people know when he will be in the office.

      And so on. It can be annoying for those on more traditional schedules or whatever to work around this stuff, but the odds are very good that something will come up in their lives at some point that needs flexibility and it all tends to even out in the end.

    4. INeedANap*

      All of these things seem to be a problem with the manager, not the flex time.

      Complications for meeting scheduling does not seem significant to me, especially only one day. That’s just normal business in my experience.

      Flexible work from home – this is a performance issue, where the employee needs to have a system in place so that they’re accessible for meetings or signatures or whatever.

      Leaving at 3pm: if this role isn’t one that can support that, then again – it shouldn’t have been negotiated in the first place.

      The technology issue is just a performance issue, I don’t see that it has anything to do with a flexible workplace.

      Junior employee and the overworked team – these are both issues with mismanagement, not any flex time.

      The only thing that I see having to do with actual consequences of flex time is the FMLA one, and that’s one where I think the other employees have to kind of suck it up because it may be them out on FMLA next; that’s the nature of life itself, not flex time.

    5. Lucette Kensack*

      Hmm. I don’t think I did a good job describing what I’m really thinking about. I’m not asking whether the managers are doing a good job of handling these things, and I don’t mean to focus exclusively on flexible schedules.

      What I’m getting at is how we can best navigate the tension between managing each employee’s individual situation (their preferences about where and when they work; the kinds of work they do well and less well; how they manage workload and overwork; etc.) and managing teams of employees that work together.

      As I said, in each specific case here, the individual employee was valued enough that their specific requests were approved (whether that means a flex schedule or the ability to control what work they will or won’t do).

      I think what is happening in most of these cases is that the managers aren’t thinking comprehensively enough about the impact of that flexibility and what they need to do as a result.

      For example: Employee #4 is incredibly talented and valuable. There is no question that, even with his minimal technology skills, he important to the organization. Giving him support with basic technology is a worthwhile trade-off. But I think the manager of his team needs to think about who it is impacting and take some steps to address that — even if it’s just communicating really clearly about what is happening and why.

      1. KEG*

        I think the other commenters are making valid points, even if that’s not the crux of your question. Having multiple employees on different flexible schedules may be causing extra tension because it’s not in alignment with how your office works. Staff shouldn’t be spending a ton of energy coordinating standard work activities because of this. For example, with #3 if you have a lot of meetings it either needs to be ok for someone to call into meetings, or that person’s flexibility, to work from home/wherever, only applies to days they don’t have to attend a meeting. It’s great to accommodate people, IF it makes sense for your office.

      2. The Man, Becky Lynch*

        It still boils down to the managers taking the easy way out and letting people do what they want in the name of ‘flexibility’ at the determent of the rest of the team. They’re not playing out the actual consequences, that’s why it’s ended up being so messy.

        They value employees so they give them the ability to shun technology and form schedules that make them regularly unavailable for meetings? That’s pretty ridiculous, it sounds more like they’re avoiding immediate conflict, not wanting to say no and don’t want to tell people they’re going to do the things they’re assigned to do, rather they like it or not because to take X off their plate means that others have to figure it out, which isn’t working well either.

        They seem to just rubber stamp requests for “accommodations” and therefore people take full advantage of them [sure why not?] and it ends up in a messy mess.

        If someone is on FMLA you figure out how to handle the sporadic absences, just like you should plan ahead for emergencies or planned absences.

        It’s the person’s fault that they’re damaging their own reputation by not understanding that they’re within a company that values face time. Yes you can show up at 10am, we won’t assume you’re dead but yeah, working less than 40 hrs in most places who are all working 40hrs unless you’re designated as part-time or a fill-in role is a thing that most places frown upon on a higher level. Not necessarily fair but that’s on the person choosing that life, they have to be the ones who teach themselves and learn about optics etc.

      3. Kathenus*

        We’ve recently been discussing a situation that has some similarities. People from one area are asked to help in another area at time when that area is short staffed, and vice versa. We’ve had to make it clear that if area 1 has a person go to area 2 for the day, that the whole team pitches in to pick up the slack, but that we – as managers – also realize that area 1 is down a half person that day so that we don’t expect the same work output. I don’t believe in the ‘make it work’ scenario, or the phrase ‘doing more with less’. You do less with less, or you look for efficiencies to increase the output with the same resources, but it’s unfair to employees and unrealistic to expect the same output with fewer resources. So I tell my team that if they feel I’m doing that, to call me out, because I don’t realize that I’m coming across that way. It’s my job to set realistic and clear expectations, and to give staff the resources needed to do the job. When resources are reduced, it’s my job to work with them to adjust expectations or find more resources. That’s my job as a manager.

        So for some of these scenarios I think the failure IS in management expecting the same result with fewer resources and not resetting expectations to the available resources, or finding more resources to fill the gap.

      4. The New Wanderer*

        I think it matters that #4 (lacking basic tech skills), #5 (not working 40 hrs), and #7 (refusing to do certain tasks) are not working with negotiated flexible schedules that should be accommodated. They are exhibiting performance problems that do not need to be, and should not be, accommodated, barring any deals they have with management on their specific instances. The answer is not to have people work around them if they’re not actually doing their full job and every other employee is.

        #4 = here is some training, you will be expected to know and perform these basic tasks by X date. If this person is valuable, then they can learn these basic functions. The other option is to remove those tasks from that role, but if everyone else in that role are doing them there’s really no excuse for enabling this.
        #5 = in this job, it is important to be available at your desk for 40 hours, during the standard hours of X am to Y pm, even if your work for the day/week is already complete.
        #7 = your role requires that you perform X, Y, and Z tasks. You can no longer refuse to perform Z tasks.

    6. Alianora*

      1) (4-day workweek) That doesn’t seem like such a big deal to me, I think the employee can just work around it.

      2) (flexible wfh) I think this employee should either let people know that he’s going to call in when he accepts the meeting invite, or come in to the meeting in person. Flexibility doesn’t mean that you automatically get to be unreliable like that.

      3) (3:00 pm daycare) That’s what he negotiated, so again I don’t think this is something that needs to be changed.

      4) (technology incompetent) Not good, manager needs to either train the employee or let him go if he can’t do basic elements of his job.

      5) (less than 40 hour week) If he negotiated for this, I think his manager should make that clear to the senior management. And they should also make sure to praise his work to them (as they should for all their employees who do good work.)

      7) (won’t do certain work) Sounds unreasonable from what you’ve said here, but I think more context is needed.

    7. Zephy*

      #4: lern2computers or gtfo – honestly, it’s 2019. Computer-based data entry and printing have been a routine part of the job in most fields for literally twenty years. It’s time to learn.

    8. BobbyBob*

      It might be helpful to implement “core hours” where everyone is expected to be available (except on actual days off or leave). Everyone can have the flexibility they need or want outside of the core hours. I’ve seen a couple workplaces do this and it seemed to balance the flexibility and scheduling/collaboration issues fairly well.

    9. JulieCanCan*

      As a person who once worked in a small department (3 people) where one employee had “flexible” hours which meant she was rarely in the office when it was necessary to be there, and for some reason she was allowed to get away with this for the entire torturous time I worked there, I can vouch for the level of frustration created within the rest of the group. I grew to despise this person, since not only was i in the office 50% more (we didn’t have any “work from home” abilities- she just managed to create her own ridiculous schedule and no one complained or thought it was an issue). I steadily grew to despise her and her lack of ability and accountability, which just made being there really hard.

      All I’m trying to say is that these kinds of things effect the workload and workplace more than just resentment and hard feelings. When people are becoming burned out because work is unevenly distributed and it grows to a head, bad things happen.

  30. Josine*

    Today I found out about HireVue’s use of AI and machine learning to screen candidates based on body language and intonation. I find this extremely concerning on an ethical level – frankly, I find it dehumanizing. I also don’t think it’s an effective way to find talent.

    I would like to hear from people who have used this tool to hire and what they think of it.

    1. OlympiasEpiriot*

      This reply is essentially a bookmark so I can find this very good question again easily. I had NOT heard of this and I really want to know more. :-/

    2. LCL*

      Wow. I just looked at their website. Their basic claim is that by using AI and machine learning based on proven criteria, whatever that is, they will be able to hire without bias. I’m skeptical. They claim it is better for applicants because the applicant can complete the interview/assessment on their own schedule, instead of phone tag. Which sounds great, it’s the AI assisted selection I question. If you wanted a workforce that was all similar culturally, this would be a way to get it.

      1. downtown funk*

        Their basic claim is that by using AI and machine learning based on proven criteria, whatever that is, they will be able to hire without bias.

        …Well, they clearly don’t understand software.

      2. gecko*

        Yup, this is an excellent way to get a workforce that looks a lot like the team that developed the product. Likely a big ol’ group of 29-year-old white American men. Nice way to offload your hiring discrimination onto a neutral third party :P

        1. Elizabeth*

          I was just about to reply that the “proven criteria” is based on algorithms, which are based on either on what the developers think is normal or on what you already have- which in turn means you either get an extremely homogeneous team who all think and work the same or you get a team of software developers to do all sorts of other roles.
          The idea of AI is that it will respond to and learn from feedback – but I doubt that we truely have enough input and enough feedback from all of our societies to have a truely effective and impartial selection process. And what happens if the AI selects the ideal person to fit into a team, because that person exhibits characteristics that are different from other team members and so will round out the team really well, but the manager doesn’t get that or can’t cope with someone who thinks differently to them?

    3. JokersandRogues*

      If it’s what I’m thinking of, AI/machine learning can be biased because the programmers unintentionally teach it biases (against different cultures that behave differently in similar circumstances). It would be consistently biased of course but I think it’s problematic to depend on it as the sole arbiter.

      1. Nancie*

        Not just programmers, but hardware designers. I know there’s been at least one issue somewhat recently with cameras that couldn’t distinguish the features of people with dark skin. That could skew the results of body language, if any of it was focused on the face.

      2. just a random teacher*

        The main issue with current AI bias is that since you’re feeding it a bunch of training data and letting the AI come up with its own criteria, it’ll bake in whichever biases are easy for it to detect in that training data, with no thought to whether or not those are “okay” things to screen on the basis of.

        (Some things are ok to screen on the basis of! Otherwise we wouldn’t have a job-seeking process with applications and interviews, just a lottery with a job applicant drawn at random for each position after typing their email address into the application form. However, an AI won’t distinguish between “ok” reasons to decide someone is better suited for the job than someone else, such as relevant experience doing x in another position, and “not ok” reasons to decide someone is better suited for the job than someone else, like their name and pronouns are more like the names and pronouns of previous successful hires.)

    4. gecko*

      I haven’t used this tool but I’m in tech and know a bit about AI. This does nothing to reduce bias in hiring. It may even increase it by reducing oversight on “top candidate” results.

      I would be surprised if the “top candidate” examples fed to the AI as training data are equitable examples across race, gender, neurotypicality, etc. I would not be surprised if the AI had statistically significant trouble reading highly-rated body language on non-white faces. I wouldn’t be surprised if the AI were even worse at giving non-Americans high ratings.

      Using this in hiring is a really bad idea, particularly if they’re not already talking about what they’re actively doing to prevent discrimination. I saw some claims on their website that this will prevent discriminatory hiring of only people who look like you, and while it may work a little bit in that direction, it will introduce additional significant and very subtle vectors of discrimination.

    5. I Took A Mint*

      This sounds like something we should combine with that AI that learned from Twitter to create a Racist Super-Robot.

  31. Anon for this*

    I have a variation on the “when to follow up” question. I currently work for a government regulator. While we are able to apply for jobs within the industry we regulate, we have to adhere to certain ethics guidelines, the foremost of which is to recuse ourselves from any matter involving a potential employer. In order to clear this ethical hurdle, I would either have to hear from the potential employer that they are not moving forward with me as a candidate or recuse myself from the hiring process.
    Five months ago (early December), I was contacted by an internal recruiter for a large company about a mid- to senior level position. I’m not actively looking for a job, but there were some things about this one that I found very interesting, including that this new venture was a big priority for the company. After some back and forth (i.e., salary range, seniority of the position, etc.), I applied. This is a fairly specialized niche position. In my town where they are hiring, I only know of a few people who would be qualified. I happen to have an additional qualification on my resume that only two or three other people have – two of whom have told me they aren’t interested. So I know I was a leading candidate, but that it was likely to be competitive between those of us who did apply.
    The recruiter told me they wanted to fill this quickly (by the end of the year), which seemed a bit aggressive to me. So I wasn’t surprised when that (obviously) didn’t happen. I had a lengthy phone interview in January and a month later I went in for a 4 hour in person interview where I met with several senior members of leadership. I was told they would be in touch within the next week.
    After three weeks, I’d heard indications in my network that the company was recruiting other people to apply. I hadn’t heard anything, so I asked the recruiter if they had an updated timeline. He assured me they were very interested, but between vacations and business conferences, he didn’t have any new information. He told me he’d be in touch in a week or so.
    That was a month ago. I’ve heard nothing and they took the job posting down from their website last week. I’m assuming at this point that they’ve hired someone else. That’s fine. I’m annoyed that they head hunted me so aggressively and I spent a number of hours on this, but I guess I’m not surprised that they haven’t been in touch.
    I’ve moved on mentally at this point, and if I didn’t have my ethics issues, I’d consider it done. My question is, to comply with my ethics rules, at what point do I reach out to them and “withdraw”. On the off chance they are just moving slowly (although at this point, they would exceed government hiring timelines), I don’t want to withdraw formally. On the other hand, I don’t want to unnecessarily recuse myself from something at work and out myself as looking for a job when I really wasn’t. But given the nature of my job, I can’t have this hanging out there forever. I was recently assigned two new matters are work (neither of which involved this employer), so I have some breathing room for now and can wait a month or two to reach out.

    1. BRR*

      I’d probably wait a bit to see if you hear either way. I think it would be ok to reach out and ask if they have an update on their timeline. I think it’s perfectly reasonable to explain that you’re interested but just need to know if you’re still being considered for ethics reasons. Also, is there someone you can consult at your current job who wouldn’t out you to your department? An ethics office?

  32. OlympiasEpiriot*

    Just need to share…my job requires that I juggle multiple projects as a PM (consultant firm in a specialty within civil engineering). I’ve had one particular job with a client I have/have had many jobs with (we have a master services contract) that has been insanely stressful due to their client setting unreasonable deadlines and then my main point of contact within our client apparently being at the end of their rope which resulted in me getting “ghosted” for all practical purposes. I only was getting contacted by them on this job to get castigated for not giving them things they say they needed, but they weren’t responding when I replied or called to get clarification or do other things to make sure I help them to help themselves. Yesterday, I wanted to find a soundproof room to scream in. Instead, I went to a more senior person on our internal team for this client and basically moaned to them for 10 minutes going over ALL that I had been doing to try to give them what they need.

    This morning I FINALLY had a productive phone call with the client with one of their higher-ups as well on the call (initiated by said higher-up, who also seems to be new to the firm…I think they’ve been going through some internal uphevals) which ended up with them getting it as to why and how I should have been and, going forward, should be more involved in the project with them and THEIR client.

    I feel like a great weight has been lifted. Now just to get the deadline met.

    1. AnotherAlison*

      Just here nodding my head. My main project and other smaller projects have good clients right now, but I’ve had some terrible ones in the past. Sometimes it all seems like a lot of work for the ever-decreasing margins in some of our markets. (Don’t get me wrong–we have some really great work in great markets right now, just not the ones I am personally working in.)

      1. OlympiasEpiriot*

        In this case, I don’t think it has to do with the changing margin issue. There’s a big agency that had a bunch of its jobs for its consultants this year get issued late and yet they still want everything done by the same deadline. There’s lots of steps to the process and moving parts and my client has gotten squeezed. This particular project has had lots of sub-parts, too, which have increased complexity (things that were out of either of our hands, but needed to be done if the job were to be done correctly) and made it more stressful. So much has been submitted out of order just to keep up with the schedule. (Parallel submissions, essentially.)

        I had thought it was some kind of a fiscal year thing initially; after a conversation with a buddy in that agency (but in a different department who interacts with the project-issuing department) I have dismissed that hypothesis. It seems likely that someone within the agency dropped a ball or twelve and everyone is playing catch-up.

        And then the stress trickles down.
        :-(

  33. Introvert girl*

    What do you do to counteract the exhaustion from working all day using your brain? I’m just too exhausted to do anything else but take care of my dog. Sometimes we go for long Wales but I’m still knackered.

    1. Grace*

      I read YA with a good cup of tea, or I take long soaks in the bathtub. Sometimes all three at once. Mainly try to do something that you enjoy, but that doesn’t require a lot of brain power (but that occupies you enough that your brain isn’t still thinking about work stuff). Knitting/crocheting with a favorite movie on might work, if you enjoy that. Adult coloring books are good, too.

      1. Introvert girl*

        Thanks, maybe I’ll do some cross-stitch. Did that a couple of years ago, it’s quite relaxing.

      2. TiffanyAching*

        I second doing something that gets your hands or body moving that doesn’t require a ton of effort + something that occupies your brain enough to push work-thoughts out but isn’t complicated. I personally crochet and binge netflix, or do light cleaning (folding laundry, wiping down counters, etc.) while listening to podcasts.

    2. Notinstafamous*

      Sleep more! And have hobbies that don’t require the same kind of active thought. I’m never going to learn another language after work but I can cook and listen to music and just accept that my brain is tired. If you were working out at the gym for a long day and exhausted, you wouldn’t come home and go to the gym.

      Also someone told me to eat good fats like salmon and avocado but I don’t know if that’s legit or if it’s just because they’re tasty.

      1. New Job So Much Better*

        I can relate. I used to write fiction (and publish) in my free time, but my current job (which I love) is so mentally draining I can’t focus on anything more than light reading or Wheel of Fortune in the evenings.

        1. Introvert girl*

          I’m still at chapter 3 of the book I’m trying to write but my job exhausts me. I translate teapots 8 hours a day.

      2. Introvert girl*

        I’m not getting enough sleep lately, that’s true. And maybe trying to learn how to code in the evenings is just to hard.

      3. Notinstafamous*

        I read somewhere (possibly here?) that if you’re too tired to do anything but watch TV then you’re too tired to watch TV and you need to just go to sleep.

        Also – why do you need to do something to intellectually stimulating after work? Is it something that inspires you and you want to? Is it something you need to do (passing a CRA exam or something)? Or is it just a feeling that you’re “wasting” time that could hypothetically be productive time?

        Because if it’s the first two you probably need a solution but if it’s the last one than I just want to say that relaxation (playing with your dog! Reading YA novels! Colouring!) is a perfectly valid thing to spend your time doing and you don’t need to feel like you’re always hustling if you don’t want to. Rest is important, balance is important, life itself outside of work and capitalism is important.

        1. valentine*

          Sleep two hours more than you are now, a minimum of 10 hours, for a while, then reassess. Or maybe moving your hours would help, especially if you’re a night person.

      4. Clever Name*

        Yes to the mindless hobbies! My boyfriend really really wants me to take up Dungeons and Dragons, and while it does look like fun, I just want to not have to plan ahead and analyze after doing just that all day at work. Same goes for playing chess. My 12 year old always beats me because I never care enough to actually think about strategy…

    3. Emily S.*

      Reading, lounging on the couch listening to podcasts, and watching far too much television.

      1. Introvert girl*

        I love reading, but I easily fall asleep when reading, so I try to do it in bed, after my last doggie-walk.

    4. The Ginger Ginger*

      I love audiobooks and knitting/crochet. Audiobooks mean I can “read”/consume some entertaining media, but give my eyes a break from screens. Knitting/crochet is awesome because it’s hands on, good for your brain (in different ways than working is), plus I find it very, VERY meditative and calming. You can make something as simple or complicated as you want. Plus there are some studies about how it helps cognitive function and mental health. That’s how I decompress.

      1. Introvert girl*

        At work I like to listen to BBC radio 4 extra “Words and music”. These are pieces of music (old and new), poetry and prose. Every episode lasts an hour ans is concentrated around one theme.

        1. The Ginger Ginger*

          This sounds delightful, I ‘m going to look into it! Maybe similar to Rufus Wainwright’s Take All My Loves: 9 Shakespeare Sonnets album (which I really like). It’s 9 sonnets performed in various ways with music and readers. Several of which are very recognizable, like Helena Bonham Carter and William Shatner.

      2. DataGirl*

        I only do audiobooks anymore, because then I can do something else with my hands while consuming the story (drive, cook, craft).

        1. The Ginger Ginger*

          Me too! That’s the only way chores, cooking, gaming, etc gets done. Slap on an audio book!

    5. Anonforthis*

      I crochet while watching Netflix or what have you, walk with my dog, and lately, I’ve been going to the gym a couple of evenings a week to work out, which for me just means 45 minutes or so doing some cardio. I’ve found that I’m sleeping better and generally feel better (even though no weight loss as of yet). I don’t go home first, as I’ve found that once I get home, that’s it.

      1. Introvert girl*

        That’s my problem too. Once I hit the couch, I just collapse. I do like my walks with the dog. They de-stress me mentally.

        1. JulieCanCan*

          I’m the same exact way. Walking my dog while listening to podcasts is my form of relaxation and enjoyment. But if I sit down after I get home from my after-work dog walk, forget it! I’m a lost cause.

    6. That Californian*

      I know it’s not everyone’s bag, but a ten-minute deep breathing and meditation session helps me a lot. It helps me separate my work day and my after-work day, and the deep breathing relaxes and re-energizes me. There are a ton of podcasts and other media for guidance, or you can just set a timer, close your eyes, and focus on breathing deeply and slowly for a while. If you fall asleep, maybe that’s a nice break too. :-) The timer will wake you up.

    7. Admin of Sys*

      Art! But not difficult art. (assuming, mind you, that you’re not in a creative field). I find coloring books work well, as does painting basic / formulaic things. Not like Bob Ross painting (though that’s fine if you like his style and have oil paints, etc) but more like – abstract ‘paint the canvas blue shading to purple’ type things. Nothing you can fail at, but something colorful and engaging.
      If you /are/ in a creative field, listening to music may be helpful? Put on something you can immerse yourself in while you take the walks. Basically, try to engage the parts of your brain that you’re not using at work, to let the work side rest.
      (I know current neurological theories say right / left brain split is a myth, but switching from analytical skills to a visual-input focused appreciation, or similarly going from highly visual processing to language or musical focus allows your mind to let go of the work topics and avoids getting caught in the ‘continuing to think about work’ trap.)

    8. DataGirl*

      mostly TV and stupid games on my phone. I always think I will do some knitting or other productive activity, but it never happens.

    9. Seeking Second Childhood*

      I think the dog walks sound like a great idea. For the months when I was swimming daily, I was sleeping better and feeling like I recovered more quickly.
      I’m trying to figure out how I can get back to that despite my changed schedule… Wish I weren’t away from the house too long to get a dog. Yardwork helps me some…especially repetitive heavy stuff with a visible result, like raking, shoveling, and cutting up storm-damaged branches.

    10. Elizabeth*

      Try to get some aerobic exercise before work. The before work is really important because it will set you up well for the day. Take your dog for a run in the morning before going to work. 20 minutes of heart rate higher than normal will make a big difference. You will also be physically fitter which will help with the mental work.
      Listen to audio books on the way to and from work. It makes the commute feel much more like leisure time.

  34. overcaffeinatedandqueer*

    Going to do some new volunteer work! Some people I know started a nonprofit, the Bitty Kitty Brigade, to volunteer to bottle-raise and vet orphaned kittens.

    Overall, from fostering animals and this upcoming, I feel I have learned some skills useful across the board at work. How do you all talk or not talk about that?

    Also, now I get access to the Facebook group full of TINY KITTEN PHOTOS!

    1. Grace*

      When there’s downtime at work, you share the itty bitty kitty photos with others at work who enjoy cats. definitely. Let the conversations flow from that. Just don’t force the kitty photos on non-cat people.

      1. CmdrShepard4ever*

        Exactly in my office who is and who isn’t a cat person is widely known. Sometimes in bigger group meetings we might have some cat talk but will generally cut it short. The more in depth cat talk/cat picture sharing is kept between the cat people. But even though I am a well known cat person, on of my coworkers another cat person the other day asked me if I wanted to see some cat pictures before she showed them to me. I was “offended” that she asked if I wanted to see the cat pictures, because I am always up for cat pictures.

    3. ElspethGC*

      In this vein, TinyKittens (Canadian charity working with feral cats to TNR and socialise) has a new litter of kittens born via C-section on their livestream, and another litter on the way in a week or so! I suspect anyone reading this particular thread is 100% down for 24/7 kitten livestreams.

    4. Seeking Second Childhood*

      AAAAH that’s adorable. I briefly shared a house with someone who had bottle-raised an orphaned kitten from the age she fit in the palm of his hand. She was a weird cat for having had no mama or siblings — but the dog was delighted to finally have a cat who didn’t ignore him.

    5. Zephy*

      Kittens!!

      If you haven’t fostered neonates before, and your day job offers an EAP, maybe take down that number and keep it in your back pocket. Hand-raising wee tiny babes is an amazing experience, but it’s really hard not to take it personally when one of them doesn’t make it.

      1. Anonysand*

        This this this this this. I spent several years fostering sick and abandoned kittens and while it is so rewarding, it’s can be incredibly emotionally (and sometimes physically) draining when every day is a test of survival. Make sure you have a support team around you who understands what you’re taking on, someone you can talk to if you do end up dealing with loss.

  35. Tiptoe Through the Tulips*

    Has anyone else struggled with putting up with a dysfunctional work environment after becoming “enlightened” by great resources like this site? I always knew things were a little off at my job (typical small business issues, poor management from an unpredictably moody boss, etc.). Since I discovered this site I find myself increasingly frustrated when I see how things should/could be with good management, co-workers, and practices. I’m sure it’s unusual to find all of those things in one place, hence why this site is so popular and useful, but it makes me wish I didn’t have so much material to work with that I could write a weekly letter to AAM asking for advice on the latest lunacy. I’m just curious to see if anyone else has had this same experience after discovering this site.

    I am job searching and hope to get out of here but am being picky, so it may take some time.

    1. Middle Manager*

      100%

      Since finding AAM and other resources, I’ve realized how dysfunctional our culture is and in particular how dysfunctional our management culture is.

    2. Teapot Painter*

      I had the unfortunate experience of finding this blog AFTER I left HorribleToxicJob. It helped me affirm that it was indeed as bad as I thought though, and that it will take years to adjust to this good stable job. For reference: OldJob was a houseful of angry bees. NewJob only has a handful flying around on occasion, but I can easily avoid getting stung. I only wish I had found out they were real bees earlier, instead of thinking they were only in my head.

      So, I would use the site to help with resumes, interviews, and cover letters. Keep on being picky!

    3. Michelle*

      Oh, I have. I see/hear things and think “Nope, that’s wrong. Alison & the commentariat say X and Y is never going to work”.

    4. KEG*

      Yes! I think I work for a pretty good company overall, but a lot of my senior coworkers could benefit from management training.

    5. Free Meerkats*

      Consider yourself an anthropologist observing a particularly interesting tribe while living with them. You are with them but not of them.

      Then write about your findings here.

      1. NoLongerYoungButLotsWiser*

        +1. I have been passing this bit of wisdom on to the young one at his first job/ first boss. He successfully managed to not rise to the bait of a bad manager, and did not quit the bad job (yet). But I’ve had to explain this concept in depth, to help him learn to disengage while he job hunts. Next, to get him to read Allison’s book…

  36. Blue*

    A low-stakes questions, but the advising/student affairs-titles-on-a-resume question from earlier this week got me thinking about my own student affairs-related resume. It includes academic advising positions at three different institutions, two of which spell “advisor” the way you normally see it in higher ed, but the other spells it “adviser.” In the past, both spellings have appeared in my materials, with the -er spelling used only in reference to the position at that particular institution. This hasn’t proven to be a problem thus far, but I still wonder if it’d be better to be consistent in the spelling, even when it’s not technically correct. Thoughts?

    1. Anony-miss*

      I would pick one way or the other and keep it consistent on your resume. When they follow up to confirm your title/employment, I don’t think the change in one letter would come off as strange since it seems to be a stylistic preference rather than a totally different title.

    2. Less Bread More Taxes*

      I’d go with a consistent spelling, otherwise it may come across as a typo. And you’re not going to be penalised for spelling one job title incorrectly.

    3. LJay*

      My job uses Materiel for my department name, which is apparently a military thing.

      I spell it Material on resumes and such. I don’t think a reference checker would be like, “Well she said she is in the materials department but she’s really in the materiel department. She’s lying and I won’t hire her because of it.” The meaning is basically the same. People familiar with the term materiel will also be familiar with the word material. While people unfamiliar with the word materiel will just think I’m spelling it wrong.

    4. Seeking Second Childhood*

      Grammarly’s blog has discussed this. Summary at the top:
      -Adviser is a person who gives advice.
      -An advisor does the same thing—the only difference is in the spelling.
      -Adviser is the older and the preferred spelling.
      To avoid going into moderation, it’s grammarly’s basic URL then /blog/advisor-vs-adviser/

  37. Anony-miss*

    How do you know when it’s time to move on to the next thing? I recently dragged myself out of wallowing in a sort of professional crisis and now I’m started to be motivated again about my work and accomplishments. There’s a number of jobs I’m applying to at other organizations. I’ve only worked at one organization but for multiple roles, and I’m considered really successful and valuable here. So I guess I’m wondering, am I successful in general and good at what I do, or am I only successful here because I’ve been here for 4 years and figured out the system? How do I know when to take the leap of faith and try for something new?

    1. anonagain*

      I don’t have advice about the broader question you are asking, but I think you should move on. It is better to search for and start a new job when you are still motivated and positive about your work and your accomplishments. It is much harder to go through that process when you are in a professional crisis, even though that can provide the impetus to leave.

      This is advice I wish someone had given me. I started job searching when I was no longer motivated or feeling good about my accomplishments and it was a struggle to conceal how defeated I felt. My plan for the future is to look for new opportunities when things are still going well and I can approach the search from a good place.

      As to whether you are really good at what you do or if you just figured out your current organization, those things aren’t necessarily miles apart. You figured out how to succeed in this organization and you’ll figure out how to be successful in the next one.

      If anything, that concern is a reason to leave sooner rather than later so you can start getting more varied experience now.

      1. Anony-miss*

        Thank you so much for this! I was starting to feel like I should just stick with my current job because it was as good at things were going to get/all I deserved. I’ll definitely try to channel the things I’m feeling positive about into the next opportunity instead of seeing them as something to settle for.

    2. Reba*

      re: “figuring out the system” vs. general skill, while it’s true that many processes and whatnots will be specific to your workplace and not necessarily transferable, learning/knowing how to learn is hugely valuable, often hard to account for, and definitely transferable to other work.

      Congrats on hauling yourself out of a funk!

      1. Anony-miss*

        Thank you! It feels so weird to be on the other side of it and look back at how I was feeling then.

        Re: the knowing how to learn – that’s such a good way of putting it. My field pretty universally has lots decentralized and opaque systems, so maybe I can use learning how to navigate those as a selling point in my job materials

  38. Oh no*

    How understanding should I be of a new team/boss gossiping when their past supervisor was very difficult?

    I am a new-ish employee of 4 months. I’ve come to find out that my team and boss have a sour reputation, funny to some and evil to others. My boss and senior coworker were telling me this story about how they made fun of a supervisor because they couldn’t spell and misused big words (eg, they misused “copious” a lot so now they say “That’s a coconut amount of paperwork you have.” And played drinking games where they would take a sip of coffee every time the supervisor mispronounced in a meeting.) or make fun of her weight or how she’s “dressed like a hooker.” This supervisor (my boss’s boss) left before I came in. I’m the youngest, and apparently another person my age called my boss and senior coworker out on this behavior, in which they told them to mind their own business because they didn’t know what that supervisor put them through.

    I mean, from their stories, this supervisor did seem terrible and mean and toxic. But also, this is now breeding a toxic environment in my opinion! It’s all gossip and bad mouthing the old boss and if it’s not them, it’s someone else in current leadership. I feel awkward because I don’t want to participate and I don’t want to be associated with it (I think that’s too late.)

    But maybe I’m being too harsh in my assessment? Is it understandable to vent about this often because they survived the toxicity? This is only my second job and this didn’t happen in that role (besides complaining occasionally with coworkers on my same level about workload.)

    1. Rey*

      You’re not being too harsh. Yes, this is toxic for several reasons. 1) Their complaints sound like mean girls, not professionals. 2) The supervisor has left but they are still passing this on to new employees. 3) When they got called out on it, they became defensive.

      1. Sloan Kittering*

        Yeah it’s the pettiness of the comments that loses them any higher ground here. It’d be one thing to say “Agatha was disorganized and that’s why we don’t have files for the audit, Agatha created a culture of fear among employees and that’s why nobody wants to raise issues, Agatha was embezzling and that’s why we don’t get raises, Agatha was inappropriate with the interns and that’s why we need you to sign this conduct document” – at least those are factual and relevant. But the stuff they’re still harping on is making them sound like snotty teenagers.

    2. fposte*

      Whoa, this is gross. And this is also why we often push back here when somebody is dealing with a frustrating colleague by being mean–because then you end up being mean.

      1. valentine*

        Totally gross, especially the bodily bit. I’ve always cultivated a reputation of not being the audience for this. I’d report them and, if they didn’t stop and were otherwise gross, I’d transfer or leave.

    3. Grassfire*

      I’m dying inside because you could be talking about me and my colleagues joking around (in a work social setting) with our new boss about our absurdly toxic old boss from a while back…ugh. I felt gross about it but this confirms it. So, how to professionally repair the damage? Just never do it again and move forward, or communicate with new boss and acknowledge that it was unprofessional? Yuck.

  39. GigglyPuff*

    After looking for another job for about 2 years (specialized area, not that many job applications), I finally got a job offer! Yay for validation. Unfortunately due to the amount of yellow flags, and the direction it would take my career, I’m not ready for or am sure I’d ever want, I’m turning it down. Luckily everyone in my life has been super supportive about it, even though in the past I’ve said I’d take any job to get out of where I am now. This has shifted in the last six months as my mental health got better, so I’m not as desperate to leave.

    I want to be excited about my next job and I just never was excited about this job, and no one there seemed to be excited either. Since I’ve been searching for a while, I’ve had a good amount of interviews and am fairly good as judging situations, this environment just seemed off. It’s been one of the hardest decisions of my life, but the relief I felt yesterday when I settled on the no, made me realize I made the right choice. Although that 10% of my brain that says “what if”, is having a hard time turning off. Thankfully I have great and supportive friends who know the right things to say.

    1. Teecha B.*

      Hooray for smart decisions! I’m going to chime in as a voice of the road not taken. I, too, work in a specialized area with very few openings. I have always jumped on job offers, every time knowing that I was not a great fit for the organization, and being very aware of lots of flags. My thought process has always been “I get to do what I love, and if that means doing it in a place where I will never fit in with the culture, oh well.” I’ve spent a lot of time being miserable, and I’ve moved jobs every 5 or 6 years in a 20 year career.

      Until this year! After 2 years on the market, the job that opened up was a terrific fit. For the first time, I’m excited not just for the work I do, but the environment where it happens. There were moments during my 2 year search where I stared into the abyss and the abyss started back into me, so I’m rooting for you. Stand up for yourself and what you deserve. You did something really brave, but it was absolutely the right thing. I’ve wasted too much of my life jumping into situations I was not excited about at the outset. Listen to yourself. Best of luck.

      1. GigglyPuff*

        Thank you, you have no idea how much this means to me. It was a really difficult decision because I know it would give me the experience I’m lacking that has kept me from the other jobs I’ve interviewed for, some I was excited for, and the money was great. But I’ve been forced to learn a lot about myself and what I want at, my current job. When I started where I am now, I moved somewhere new, basically just starting my career, and was so naïve. But the reality slowly set when I realized the job wasn’t perfect, I had no idea who I was or what to do with myself in my free time.

        It basically triggered a major depressive episode, which was really driving my need to look for a new job. I thought if I could change the situation everything would just be better, that’s so not true. For the past year, I’ve been building myself back up, finding life outside work, learning to navigate within the issues I’ve had at work, including building my work ethic back up which took a huge blow. The best thing, when my mom said, who I still get help with my bills from, that my mental health comes first, because I was afraid, with all the flags I saw, that the environment it was presenting wouldn’t be great for me.

        So again thanks, I think that’s why I kind of posted about it, I was hoping for someone who’d gotten to find that job that excites them again about their work, even if it meant the unknown first.

        1. JulieCanCan*

          You are smart not only to be able to see that the opportunity was one that you shouldn’t jump into, but to understand that there will always be that “what if?” after making a decision like that. And you know what? Almost EVERYTHING has a “what if?” attached – the magical part of dealing with “what if’s” is being able to accept and let go of them. I think we have an obsession in the working world to always believe the grass would have been greener, or IS greener, regardless of how happy we currently are, but I have a strong belief that the decisions we ultimately make are usually the best ones we could make at the time with the information we had, and to hold on to the regrets or feelings of missing out on an opportunity that might have been better is a solid waste of time. Don’t get me wrong, I am guilty of obsessing over “what ifs?” and most people are, but letting that go can be such a liberating thing!! Give your all to the position you currently hold, learn and grow as much as you can, and when the right thing comes along, hopefully you’re going to be able to feel it.

          I hope you are happy and successful in your current role. As someone who knows depression all too well, I wish you the best and hope you’ll continue to keep the upper hand in your fight with it. I’m in the same boat and I know it can be rough; acknowledging it and understanding it are so important – they hold the foundation of being able to really keep it at bay ( along with medication- at least for me!) .

          Good luck and keep up the good fight!

  40. Bee's Knees*

    I got suspended last week (paid) because I worked on my birthday and was apparently not supposed to. So that was fun. I did appreciate the long weekend, but I had like 60 emails waiting for me on Monday.

    Yesterday I got in to work a little before 6, which is not a time of day I would prefer to have meetings. I committed bird vehicular homicide on my way in, which made sure I was SUPER awake.

    And now we’re facing more layoffs at our plant. Not fun.

    1. Teapot Librarian*

      You got suspended for working on your birthday?!? That is the most ridiculous thing I’ve heard in a long time, other than the person who did not get to take her birthday off because she was born on February 29.

      1. Bee's Knees*

        We give all the hourly employees their birthday off, which they can either take, or get holiday (double pay) time for working. I thought it would be the same since I’m salaried, but it’s a use it or lose it. I would have carried the day to a different Friday, but it had to be in the same pay period.

    2. Tiptoe Through the Tulips*

      Wait, what?! It was an actual you’re-in-trouble suspension and not a, “Oh, you probably didn’t realize that we give every employee their birthday off. Since you worked on yours, go ahead and take this Friday off as our gift to you” deal?

      1. Bee's Knees*

        It was more a take Friday off, because otherwise you will mess up payroll, and you were supposed to have it off. With a little Why didn’t you tell anyone it was your birthday? for flair.

        1. Tiptoe Through the Tulips*

          Oh, whew. I thought you were legitimately in trouble or something. Sounds like some goofy payroll thing on their end and you needed to appease them to help things flow smoothly. I do get how it can be problematic when you haven’t had time to prepare for that day off, though. I hope you were able to enjoy your day despite the work that was waiting for you on Monday!

          1. valentine*

            Still, your supervisor or whoever this was should duel the one who’s birthday-shunning the Leap Day employee.

    5. I Work on a Hellmouth*

      Wait. What.

      Dude, that is dumb, sucky, and sucky (in that order). I’m sorry things are gross. :(

      1. Bee's Knees*

        It could be better. It would be easier if certain supervisors weren’t blabbermouths, and we had been able to keep the impending shutdown issue to ourselves. Loose lips and ships. But no.

        And the bird thing was awful. It made noises. No. Just, no.

        2. Seeking Second Childhood*

          I hear you on that…I know how bad I felt when I veered around a frog and the stupid thing turned around and hopped right under my car. And that was over fast.

  41. AnitaJ*

    How do I deal with my impatience while managing up?

    For months we have had issues with one department–the employee was not getting work done. I was not involved with this situation so I don’t know if it was because of her workload or her work style, but work was not getting done for months and people were irritated. She very suddenly went out on leave. Company hired a contractor to backfill while she is gone. Contractor is a lovely person who inherited a huge mess and is trying to dig her way out, and seemingly being given no tools to help herself by her supervisor.

    I have been working closely with contractor to ensure that things get on the right path with all of the projects that affect my department (her work is firm-wide). Things are still not getting done. At this point I’ve been directed by my boss to actually take items from her and do them myself just to ensure they get done. And yet, in the end, I do not have the authority to move things forward past a certain point. So all things bottleneck through her.

    I feel for this employee; she is trying to deal with so much work and very little help. I have sat with her over and over, given her tips and guidance, and now am doing a chunk of her job for her. (I’m fine with that by the way, I enjoy this type of work.) But in the end, things are not getting done and they need to get done. How do I balance my frustration with my empathy?

    1. downtown funk*

      At this point I’ve been directed by my boss to actually take items from her and do them myself just to ensure they get done. And yet, in the end, I do not have the authority to move things forward past a certain point. So all things bottleneck through her.

      Rope in whoever has that authority. It sounds like your boss is aware of this, but is her boss aware of it? I know things are complicated once you’re dealing with contractors, but whoever made the decision to contract this out instead of hiring for it needs to know, let alone project managers, etc.

      1. AnitaJ*

        Totally agreed! And yes, my boss’ boss (aka the big boss) is aware and not as concerned at the moment. Ultimately, the business is not going to implode if this work doesn’t get done in a timely fashion. It just makes things so much harder for everyone, and I really want to make the process as smooth as possible for people. Couple this with the fact that I’m going out on leave in 2 weeks, so I’m hoping to at least hit some goals prior to that, and my impatience escalates!

    2. Hamburke*

      Does the work really bottleneck with this position or is there another reason for the bottleneck (technology, resources, unclear next step, piling on of “prioritized” other work)? I ask bc you’ve had 2 people in this position that have the same issue.

  42. Teapot Librarian*

    Please cross your fingers for me. I may be doing a temporary exchange of employees with another entity in my overall organization. Hoarder will go to that entity to fix a problem there that he would be very good at fixing, and an equally problematic employee from the other entity will come to my office to do a long-standing backlogged project. I’m just waiting on approval from my boss, and then I’ll need to broach the topic with Hoarder. I don’t expect he’ll be happy about the exchange, though the role he would be filling at the other entity really is perfect for him.

    1. Bee's Knees*

      Good luck! I’m trying to coordinate something like this myself. One of our sister locations needs some help, and we have too much, so I’m trying to ship some people off so they don’t get put on layoff.

  43. at a crossroads*

    Hey everyone, I’m about to have a phone interview in a few hours and I’m a bit of a wreck! I’m not actually nervous about the interview itself, but I have a lot of conflicted feelings about this opportunity, and I’d love to get some fresh perspectives on my situation!

    1) I actually really love my current job. My colleagues are fantastic, my boss is a dedicated mentor, and I do work I feel passionate about. So I recognize that I’m already super lucky. One of the reasons I applied for this other job is that it is located across the country, very near where I grew up, where my parents live, and where I hope to return some day. Job searches in my academic field don’t come up that often, and they are always national, so it’s not as if I can just pick up and move closer to my parents whenever I want. I’d love to be nearer to them before something happens that necessitates it (they are currently in their 70s, and I would like to be closer to them if they ever have health problems). Is it terrible for this to be one of my main reasons for applying for this job?

    2) This new job is a great opportunity to advance in my career (it’s a director level role, and I am currently an assistant director). However, it feels like a few years too soon. I think I am highly qualified for the position, but I also think I have a lot to learn where I currently am, and this would be a perfect job for me in 3-5 years. I am thinking ahead to the possibility of getting into this high-level role before I have enough experience to succeed at it.

    3) I feel super guilty about even considering moving on from my current job! I’ve been here 3 years, and my director has invested so much in me, and I’m really committed to this institution and its mission. I feel like I’d be betraying people who have done so much to nurture my professional development. I think in 3-5 years, they wouldn’t be surprised if I moved on, but right now, they’d be blindsided.

    4) Seriously, the only thing wrong with my current job is that it is 3000 miles from where I want to be. But even that has its pros and cons – the quality of life where I live right now is high, and the place where I’ve applied has a much higher cost of living. I love my friends and the community I’ve made where I am now. I just hate being so far from my family and my home state. I also struggle with living in a small college town that has such a small dating pool. I’m mid 30s, single, but would really like to change that. But applying for and taking new job merely for the possibility of meeting someone in a larger population center seems absurd to me. I’m doing so well professionally – am I crazy to consider leaving right now?

    Anyway, I know I don’t have a specific question, but I’d love to hear your thoughts!

    1. WellRed*

      Your career could flourish in the area, you could meet someone, you’ll be near your parents (if they are in their 70s, those potential health problems could happen sooner than you think). Why are you trying to talk yourself out of it?

      1. OP*

        Because despite all of the very positive possibilities you mention, every time I think about it, my gut tells me no. It just doesn’t feel right, for some reason. I’m a cautious person, change averse, and fearful of being in a leadership position before I’m ready. Thanks for the input – it’s helpful to see it from the perspective of someone who isn’t emotionally wrapped up in it.

    2. Anony-miss*

      I’m also struggling with this! I’ve been trying to look at it a few ways, and maybe it’ll be helpful for you too.

      1) There’s no guarantee, right? You could apply to this job and end up never hearing back. It’s happened to me before in my current role, and it wasn’t as bad because I knew worst case scenario, I already love my job.

      2) The sense of betrayal is so real, but I’ve found in the past that I’m usually the only one who sees it that way. In my last job I had a great boss, and only took a new role because she was leaving. But in hindsight, if I had stayed for that boss I wouldn’t be where I am now, because she was managing 15 people and there was only ever going to be so much she could do for me, despite wanting to do more. And in my field at least (also academic) 3 years is a really common time to start looking at the next step from assistant director.

      3) I’d spend some time thinking about the feeling that you’re qualified for this role but why you’d be better at it in 3-5 years. What specifically do you think you need to grow on? If you have that laid out, and then you end up not getting this job, then you have a plan for what to work on in the meantime to get there and be a more competitive candidate.

      1. OP*

        1) – you’re right! I’m getting ahead of myself. I should just do the interview and see what happens. If I don’t get moved to the next round, I can think about what I need to learn in the future.

        2) I think I’d be better at it in 3-5 years because right now I have no real experience making strategic decisions about the direction of an entire unit. So at least I know what I’d need to work on!

        3) As a fellow academic, maybe you can help me with this: one of my qualms about the new position is the extent to which the institution supports the mission and values of the work I do. Obviously they support it somewhat, because they’re creating this new position for it. But I know that where I am right now is a very good place to be for the field I’m in – tons of institutional support and name recognition. I’m worried about taking on a leadership role at a place where the institutional politics might not align as much in my favor.

        Thanks for the input!

        1. Anony-miss*

          Weirdly enough, this is also something I’m facing. I work right now in a particularly well-funded functional area for higher ed, but want to move to an area that’s way more inconsistently valued. For me, that means I’m interviewing new jobs just as much as they’re interviewing me. I could go back to working with a tiny budget and no leadership support if I believe enough in the mission, but do I want to? It’s one of the weights that goes on the scale along with office culture, pay, etc. outside of the job duties themselves. So I have to ask myself what is the least amount of support I’m willing to work with? For instance, I’d deal with an administration that’s indifferent to my goals but not one that’s actively hostile to them.

    3. Teecha B.*

      Three years ago, I made a cross-country move to take a job that was inferior to the one I held because my mother had been diagnosed with Alzheimer’s and was starting to decline. I hated the new job, but I will never regret the time I spent with my mother, (and it turned out that my father needed more support in this tough time than I originally had thought.) I have always been a person who put my job first, so this was not an easy move for me, and it has been hard. If I had it to do over again, knowing how hard it would be…I would absolutely make the same choice, because I was there for the last good year, and I’ve been there for the hard stuff since. (And 4 years after the first big move, I landed my dream job at another school which is only 2 hours from my family.)

      Academic jobs are hard to get. You could throw yourself wholeheartedly into the interview process and still not get the job, so you have nothing to lose by trying. There are pros and cons to every choice, but in my experience, I’m so grateful to have made the move. Best of luck to you.

      1. OP*

        Thank you for your perspective! And my sympathy for the struggles you, your mother, and father, have gone through. Best of luck to you as well!

    4. Elizabeth Proctor*

      My husband and I have been trying to relocate for over a year, and we’re only trying to move 3 hours away. I would seriously consider taking this opportunity if you get it, because it is hard to relocate.

  44. SallyF*

    Just out of curiosity, when going into a conference room for a job interview and told “Have a seat,” which seat do you select and why? (Let’s assume it’s a long table and there’s a window on one wall.)

    Personally, I usually select a seat next to the head of the table with my back to the window. I don’t want to be distracted by anything outside the window, to keep my focus on the interview. And I wouldn’t sit at the head of the table because it feels presumptuous.

    Also, if you are an interviewer, do you consciously/subconsciously note where the interviewee opts to sit?

    1. Four lights*

      I’ve sat where everyone can see me and we can all converse easily. Usually across the table, but sometimes at the head.

    2. CheeryO*

      My instinct is to go for a seat near the head at the side farther from the door, since it feels more natural to let them file in behind me and take the closer seats across from me. I did just that at my interview for my current job, and my now-boss asked me to swap sides with him for no apparent reason. I still haven’t been able to make heads or tails of that one!

    3. Murphy*

      I interviewed once and they had me sit at the head of a full conference table. It was awful.

      I feel like they’ve usually gestured towards a spot, or there was someone already sitting at the table so I just sat across from them.

    4. S-Mart*

      If I have one or two interviewers: middle of one long side, probably with my back to the window. Reasoning – I can sit directly facing my interviewer(s) and am not distracted by the outside world.

      If I have three or more interviewers: head of the table. Reasoning – easiest to stay mostly facing all my interviewers.

      If there’s a whiteboard or easel in the room, I skew toward sitting near it, as I expect I will be standing up to use it to demonstrate/draw something at some point.

      As an interviewer I only ever note the seat choice of my interviewee if it’s particularly odd – far askew from the position of already-seated interview panel; choosing the one seat with a pile of AV paraphernalia at it and then struggling to find a place to put a notebook or portfolio.

    5. JustaCPA*

      I would never sit with my back to a window – they glare/contrast will make my face difficult to read/see. I would prefer to have my interviewers backs to the window so I dont actually have to see them (cue the social anxiety) but in any case, I would either take the seat proffered or find a spot one down from the head of the table with the light on my face.

    6. Not So Little My*

      I’m a software engineer so I always sit on the side that has a clean whiteboard, because I assume I’m going to be asked to write either design diagrams or code on the whiteboard. I usually state verbally up front, “I’m going to sit where I can get to the whiteboard easily” as I do. Usually that ends up being on the long side of the table, and the interviewer sits across from me on the other long side.

    7. Lilysparrow*

      Facing the door, near a corner of the table. That way the interviewer can choose to sit across or alongside.

      But I like to face the door whenever I can.

    8. Canadian Natasha*

      My vote: Same side of the table as the window (ie. with my back to the window) and slightly more than halfway away from the head of the table. I can’t look for a long time at anyone who is backlit or it gives me a headache so facing the window would be the absolute worst spot for me.

      1. Canadian Natasha*

        Although it would depend on the number of people present. I’d move closer if it was a small group.

        1. Canadian Natasha*

          And definitely not directly in front of the window since I don’t want to make them suffer either.

  45. Karissa*

    People talk about the importance of being detail-oriented, and I completely get it, and I know that it’s important, but I’m . . . just not. I do not do well in roles that require someone who is very detail oriented. I would make a horrible accountant.

    It’s frustrating to see a lot of early career roles completely require that. I get why it would be more necessary then, but there have to be some areas where people who are not detail oriented can succeed too. I have tried to become more detail oriented, and it’s worked, but I’m not as good at it as people who are more inclined towards it.

    Sorry this turned into a rant. I don’t know what I want out of this. It’s just annoying that somehow detail oriented gets associated with definitely being a good worker, and that not being detail oriented can hide other strengths.

    1. Insignificant*

      I’ve noticed that most job ads list “detail oriented” in the requirements, and it makes me wonder what level of being “detail oriented” is actually needed since it seems like such a generic term. I feel like a lot of times it’s probably meant it in a very basic sense, like “can fill out standard paperwork correctly on a daily basis” or “can remember to do task A every Friday morning” or “will not enter $1,000 instead of $100.”

      (Full disclosure: I’m very detail oriented so maybe I don’t quite understand not being detail oriented.)

      1. Karissa*

        I’m more “would lose my head if it wasn’t attached to my body”. I have a good memory and patience for somethings – I remember things anyone said to me or things I’ve read for a long time, but I really struggle with repetitive tasks. For example I was just downloading a bunch of files (about 5 – 10 files for about 20 topics) and accidentally put some in the wrong folder – but just fixed that.

        1. Sloan Kittering*

          Is there anything with a lot of customer service? I am better at dealing with people than with spreadsheets, and I’m more motivated to do things right where there is a human face connected to things.

        2. Insignificant*

          That’s interesting. I’m very detail oriented and good at repetitive tasks, but I have a horrible memory and little patience, so we’re opposites. :) I have to write detailed lists and instructions to remember everything and struggle to muster empathy when I’m waiting days or weeks for someone to get back to me on something before I can finish a task.

        3. Washi*

          I mean, you caught the mistake! I am kind of an absentminded professor type, and never thought of myself as attentive to detail. But then I mentioned that I’m not detail oriented to my boss at my first job, and she was really surprised and said that she did think of me as detail oriented. I always thought that all the systems I had to put together for myself meant I wasn’t good at details, when really a lot of people are absent minded and need systems to keep them in line.

          So if you make a lot of mistakes but also generally good at catching them, maybe you’re not doing as badly as you think?

    2. Sleepy*

      I get that that would be frustrating. Most office jobs do require a lot of attention to detail, though—it’s not made up. However, as long as you can do some detailed work, if you develop your other skills to compensate you’re more likely to be valued despite not being detail-oriented in general. For example, I’ve seen people compensate by being an amazing salesperson, or being the person who’s willing to pitch in and help any time, or taking on the role of the public face of the company at events, and so on.

    3. Maya Elena*

      I think “excellent attention to detail” is up there with “excellent time management skills”, “ability to work independently and with a team”, and “excellent oral and written communication skills” – items that are in many job descriptions, but most likely they’d be quite happy with “adequate, given all the other things” – they just put it in because 1) “excellent” is better than “adequate” and 2) maybe it will keep away the “truly crappy”, or give them grounds to not hire these latter ones. So you can probably apply to most jobs with these descriptors if you’re “adequate”, rather than “complete crap”.

      That said, you probably want to avoid being a doctor, nurse, nuclear plant employee, or any other job where your attention to detail is the main safeguard against failure, and failure is very costly (like kill someone). More mundanely, you probably don’t want to be in a position where you are the only one with your skills and nobody to check it, or where you have no chance to check and correct. (For example, maybe don’t be The Sole State Compliance and Filing Liaison for a business.) This leaves a huge scope of analyst-type jobs, things with words like “strategy” in them, administrative jobs, etc.

      1. Sloan Kittering*

        Yeah that’s the issue, there’s no way to tell from a job description whether they mean “adequate/average attention to detail,” which I can achieve if I’m careful and create enough backups for myself, or if they literally mean that being unusually attentive to details is key in the role. You can try to ask them in an interview what kinds of tasks they had in mind when they listed that. But I found that people are pretty ruthless with entry level admins, they want zero mistakes ever.

      2. boo bot*

        “That said, you probably want to avoid being a doctor, nurse, nuclear plant employee, or any other job where your attention to detail is the main safeguard against failure, and failure is very costly (like kill someone). ”

        Oddly, I kind of disagree with this? In a lot of the professions where the consequences for errors are deadly (surgeon, pilot, astronaut, etc.) checklists and safeguards are used precisely because nothing so important should be left up to the fallible memory of a human being, meaning that there’s less room for things to slip because everyone is forced to pay close attention to what they’re doing, regardless of their natural inclinations.

        Additionally I’ve found that – as someone with a similar “lose my own head if it weren’t attached” nature, the times I’m the most competent are often times of crisis. Sometimes the tendency to drift in that way is best combatted with work that inherently demands immediate focus. My grandfather had the same tendencies, and he had a long career as a cardiac surgeon.

        I’m not saying Karissa should go out and become an EMT/rocket mechanic ASAP (unless she wants to!) – I definitely don’t have that kind of job, mainly because I don’t want life-or-death responsibility. But I wanted to throw it out there that just because someone isn’t great at the kind of focus that accounting requires, doesn’t mean they won’t be great at something that demands a totally different kind of attention.

        1. CmdrShepard4ever*

          I disagree on the nuclear plant employee if Homer can do it for almost 30 years anyone can do it.

    4. boo bot*

      I think “detail-oriented” is kind of an ironically imprecise term, honestly – which details actually matter can vary widely from job to job.

      I miss typos in my own writing sometimes, and since writing is an enormous part of what I do for money, it might seem, at first glance, like missing typos would be a disqualifying flaw. BUT it turns out that in my particular job, the details that matter are more about the content, while the typos aren’t that big a deal, because everything goes through a few rounds of proofreading after I’m done with it anyway (although I do still try to have as few as possible!).

      I don’t know what kind of work you’re looking for, but it might be worth thinking about what “detail-oriented” specifically means in the kinds of roles that would otherwise play to your strengths. Job descriptions might sometimes include it as a kind of generic descriptor, because ideally, yes, we would all pay attention to all the details and notice everything and do everything right all the time, sure. But being detail-oriented as an accountant means something different from being detail-oriented as a dentist, or a dog walker, or a social worker, and so on, and you may find that in another kind of job, either the details matter less, or the details that matter are easier for you to manage.

      1. Sloan Kittering*

        Yes, I am not detail oriented but I wouldn’t let that term knock a job out of the running. I have been successful in roles that included this language. But if the job is around finance or copy editing I would not be successful.

      2. Washi*

        Yeah, the thing is that a lot of job descriptions use attention to detail as a technical sounding way to say “conscientious”. So in that sense, no, you’re never going to find a job where you don’t need to be conscientious – every boss you have will want you to care about consistently getting things right.

        But the tasks can be so different – I really struggled with data entry, but now as a social worker, I have no problem documenting all my client calls consistently. It just depends on your particular strengths.

        1. Rainy days*

          Yeah, I think it comes down to: What kind of items do you tend to let slip through the cracks? What are the downstream effects of those slips? Are those effects acceptable in your job? Most people do let some things slip, whether it’s missing the occasional typo or forgetting to respond to an email. And I’ve also worked with people who obsess over details to an extent that they can’t complete big-picture tasks or make judgments about when precision isn’t needed, which is also Not Good.

          We had an intern whose main task was ordering food for a student group we were working with. About half the time, she forgot to order special meals for students with dietary restrictions. There were consistently 2-3 students who were left eating lettuce for lunch and often felt hungry and demoralized, which isn’t okay. On the other hand, plenty of people in my office let small things fall through the cracks, and because they’ve successfully prioritized and got the important things done people don’t mind as much.

  46. Mall Rat Anon*

    Okay, I need some help with a situation that may come up again with my boss. I’m an hourly employee, so I don’t have my work email set up on my phone. It came up in conversation with my boss this morning, and she brought up that I might need it in case of emergency. I really can’t see a situation arising where I would need access to my email outside of work hours. I’m pretty much at the very bottom of the hierarchy in our office, and really emergencies wouldn’t fall to my department anyway. My boss pushes boundaries on this all the time. She calls and texts me after hours and on weekends all the time, and it’s never been anything urgent. A few months ago I decided to not answer when she called me on weekends, and that resulted in her pulling me into her office and having a long conversation with me about how I’m “not being a team player”. She isn’t rational, and she tends to take everything personally. Anyone have any advice or word tracts I could use to address this when she brings it up again? I definitely don’t want to have access to my work email outside of work, especially not when I’m just an hourly employee and paid the least in my department by a landslide.

      2. Mall Rat Anon*

        I’ve tried this before, and she’s cited being “lenient about other things”, as a reason for not tracking my time on this. She takes huge advantage of the fact that her manager isn’t a clock watcher, and thinks that everyone else must do that, too. We work in a mall, so she’s talked about going to get a coffee in the morning or shopping while on the clock as perks. But, I don’t do either of those things while I’m clocked in. I’ve very much got the impression that she just wants me to do whatever she wants and not ask questions or make her life more difficult.

        1. Four lights*

          She can be as lenient as she wants, if you work you have to get paid–that’s the law. Is your bosses boss okay? Can you approach her, or HR? Not paying you for work is a huge liability for them.

          1. Mall Rat Anon*

            I’ve gone to my boss’s boss a few times with things. The last time I did, my own boss (let’s call her Heather) said I wasn’t allowed to go to her boss (Carrie) unless I talk to Heather about the problem first. From my experience the times I have gone to Carrie with problems, Heather cleans up her act for a little while, and then goes right back to her old ways. So, I don’t know that that would actually help.

            1. ..Kat..*

              Have you asked Carrie how to log these previously (illegally) unpaid hours? Have you asked Carrie how to respond when Heather pushes? Have you told Carrie that Heather retaliates when you talk with Carrie?

      1. Mall Rat Anon*

        That was an amazing read! My boss sounds a lot like the one described in the letter, except she isn’t the owner of the company, and we’re not a start up. I’m bookmarking that for future reference!! Thank you!

    4. Natalie*

      While I do think continuing to deflect is your best option, if for whatever reason this ends up happening, see if you can selectively turn off notifications by email address. I know this is possible on iphone and I imagine there is a similar setting for android. So, you would “officially” have your work email on your phone, but you would never get any notifications (including badge notifications, the little red numbers) because of a new work email. I had that setup at a prior job and it made it incredibly easy to ignore my work email when I wasn’t in the office.

      1. Mall Rat Anon*

        I have that setup for my personal email on my phone, so I may just have to suck it up. But, once she knows its on my phone, it’ll be a huge battle if I don’t respond to an email on a weekend or something. She’s big into delegating, so she’ll probably send me something that really she should be handling, and then be upset that it didn’t get done right away. I already know it’s a no-win situation, I’m just trying to figure out how to survive it until I can find a new job.

        1. Natalie*

          Sure, that’s frustrating. One thing I’ve observed, both with myself and with others, is that it’s easy to get overly focused on the goal of her somehow not getting upset about your (perfectly reasonable) boundaries. In my experience that isn’t really achievable – whatever reaction she has to your setting boundaries comes from her stuff, it’s not a referendum on whether or not the boundary is reasonable – and it can be freeing to let go of the responsibility to both manage your boundaries *and* her emotions. So take what you know about her behavior and figure out whatever strategy will feel most comfortable to you, whether that’s directly telling her no, or passively demuring and lying until she gives up or you get out of there.

          1. Mall Rat Anon*

            Yeah, I know that I can’t always manage her emotions. The big problem is that she’s a massive grudge holder and takes it out on people in other ways. She’s manipulated some of my coworkers over PTO before because she was mad at them, so I’m just worried about some really severe and unwarranted reactions from her. This really isn’t the hill I want to die on with her, especially because there’s clearly so many other problems here.

            1. Elizabeth*

              Start writing things down, Keep a diary. No matter what you do, this is going to blow up in your face. When you have enough evidence, talk to her boss or HR. I doubt that any organisation would be happy about a manager asking an employee to do unpaid work, or work off the clock.

      2. Elizabeth Proctor*

        I turn my work email off on my phone over the weekend. It’s really easy in the gmail app.

      3. Nancie*

        Another possibility is using a different app for your work email, and set it up to only check for email when you’ve opened the app.

    5. The Phleb*

      It is not legal for her to do this…you are an hourly employee…any time you spend outside of your work ON your work, you get paid for. BIG trouble no matter how lenient your boss might be (and I know you said you don’t take advantage anyhow.) I would ask her how to record this on your time card and if she gives you flak, “I’m sorry but we could get into so much legal trouble with the state so either I can’t work ‘off the clock’ or I have to be paid for it.” No ifs, ands, or buts. If she does have a hissy fit, HR, big boss, or even your state work board is your next step. At the VERY least, you should be paid for it!

      1. Mall Rat Anon*

        I keep trying to explain that to her, but she really isn’t getting it. I don’t think she really cares, to be honest. I asked our office admin, who’s also hourly, how I should handle this, and she told me that I should mentally keep track of any time that I put in answering her calls or texts on weekends and make up for it with a longer lunch while I’m still clocked in some day during the next week. That just feels icky to me, like it might set me up for a fall later.

        1. valentine*

          it might set me up for a fall later.
          Definitely, and Heather will use it against you. You can’t trust her to take your word and approve your timesheets. It would be a constant battle.

          Resist the email thing because, by emergency, she means her BS, and it’s easier to resist, as awful as she makes that for you, then to try to escape once you’re in. If you bring up payment, it sounds like you’re amenable to working all hours. What if you broken-record her with work-life balance?

          I’m just worried about some really severe and unwarranted reactions from her.
          Is this something you can tell Carrie? You can also tell Carrie that Heather backslides.

          Sounds like you need to get out, though.

  47. WKRP*

    Oh, the past few weeks have not been emotionally kind. I’m burned out. My boss told me I should take advantage of being a manager and take the projects that interest me (because I often don’t work on fun things) What she doesn’t realize is that when I told her I liked a project, she actually gave it to my direct report to work on. Inadvertantly, likely. Still.

    Our new person has been here 3 months and while they’re doing some things very well (and really why we hired them), their attention detail is really sorely lacking and managing that along with keeping them on task, correcting mistakes made because they’ve assumed something incorrectly rather than asking is really starting to drain my energy. (I am trying to have neutral and when possible positive communications, but I am starting to get irritated.
    All of this is coupled with the fact, that I don’t really want to be a manager. I just want to keep my head down and do my work and go home. I’ve dug myself into this position by supporting the department for years and now, I just feel like a used up, deflated balloon.

    I have vacation time. I’m taking a few days off. But, the truth is, I don’t think this is salvagable in the long run. I do not like my career and am dying to change. I have a masters degree in another profession, same industry. But, the opportunities available are few and far between.

    I guess I’m just sad and I’m sorry I’m venting all my frustrations on your screens. But appreciate the listen.

    1. Happy Lurker*

      No advice, plenty of sympathy. Internet hugs and good luck. Enjoy your couple of days off.

      1. valentine*

        Is there a non-managerial role you can transfer to or is this worth sticking with until you can leave? I think choosing either way, so that what you’re doing is what you want to be doing (for now) will help you.

    2. Stacey McGill*

      No advice, but also a lot of sympathy. I’m in a similar situation. I feel like my emotional reserves for work are running on empty at all times.

    3. Penelope Garcia’s glasses*

      This is so ironic to read after this mornings letter about someone wanting their employees to figure things out instead of asking.

  48. gbca*

    How do you handle thank you notes after an interview if you probably don’t want a job, but don’t necessarily want to withdraw in the thank you note? I had an interview earlier this week and it was pretty clear the job would be a poor fit. I would normally send a thank you note within 24 hours reiterating my strong interest in the job. But that seems disingenuous in this case, especially since I am likely to decline an offer, should I get one.

    1. Alice*

      “Thanks for spending time with me yesterday. I enjoyed learning about your organization. Having learned more about this role, I realize it’s not the right opportunity for me at this time. I wish you the best and hope that you find a good match for this position.”
      Maybe you add in “I remain an admirer of your organization” etc. if you think you might want to apply for other jobs there.

      1. gbca*

        That’s the part I didn’t want to do, withdraw my candidacy in the email. I got the interview via an external recruiter, so that communication really needed to go through the recruiter first as a courtesy.

        1. A. Schuyler*

          If you’re being put forward by an external recruiter, would you send a thank you note at all? I’m not super experienced in job hunting, but I had a few irons in the fire with an external recruiter about six months ago, and I never had any direct contact with the hiring organisations outside of the face-to-face interviews. The recruiter did all the scheduling, relayed all the feedback, and in the end he was the one to provide me with the indicative offers. It never occurred to me to try to reach out to the organisations to thank them formally.

    2. Four lights*

      You could just do something generic, like “Thank you for taking the time to meet with me and discuss the llama training role.”

    3. Insignificant*

      I just wouldn’t send a thank you note. If sending one is supposed to confirm or emphasize your interest or fit for the job, then it doesn’t really make sense to send one for a job that’s clearly a poor fit.

      1. Alice*

        Well, it’s not just to emphasize interest and fit. A thank you note can also serve the purpose of expressing gratitude.

        1. Insignificant*

          But why would you express gratitude? An interview isn’t a favor–they’re doing it to find someone to fill a role, so interviewing benefits them. Seems perfunctory to e-mail someone solely to thank them for taking the time to see if you’d be a good addition for them.

          1. Alice*

            Why does anyone ever express gratitude? I say thank you to my colleagues who proofread documents I write, arrange catering for my events, process my expense reports, etc. Those aren’t favors either.
            Saying thank you doesn’t have to be obsequious, and it doesn’t have to involve a power dynamic.
            But if GBCA doesn’t feel gratitude, she of course doesn’t have to send a note.

        3. Natalie*

          Sure, but regardless of the purpose it isn’t a requirement after an interview and lots of people don’t send them. It’s probably not going to register one way or another if the OP just skips it.

      2. gbca*

        That’s what I ended up doing. I feel weird about it but I got sort of paralyzed by not knowing what to do. I do a lot of interviewing of candidates, and thank you notes don’t really move the dial for me one way or another. But I do feel like it’s a think you’re supposed to do, thus the guilt!

  49. Alice*

    Interested in your suggestions:
    My colleague made an important mistake on a project. Really it was three mistakes: changing something, not testing it, and not communicating that changes had been made.
    We’ve figured out how to work around it in the context of that project, but I’m having trouble trusting this colleague’s competence going forward. How do I:
    – retain our existing warm relationship
    – continue collaborating with him
    – not feel a need to double-check everything he does on my projects

    I’m tempted to just do things myself, but doing things without any outside input is really the core of the original mistake! I know that collaboration leads to better outcomes than I could achieve on my own (this one case excepted).

    1. Soupspoon McGee*

      Does the colleague know he goofed up? Does he know not to do it again? Is this typical of him? Have a chat with him about the implications of his mistake and about his plan to prevent it happening again. Until you feel that he gets it and takes it seriously, you won’t be able to trust him.

    2. gecko*

      Is it just you two on projects, usually? Does your/his boss know about this mistake?

      Frankly, I would not feel bad about double-checking what he does. You’ll stop when he proves trustworthy or you get bored of the extra work, and you need to know that your projects aren’t being jeopardized. I think if you know he’s not messing up, it’ll be easier to collaborate with him.

      Also, have you spoken with him about it? When a colleague of mine made a similar mistake I sat down with her and basically said, you need to test things before you submit them so it doesn’t screw everyone else up. (I can try and remember the exact wording if you want.) I still double-check her work pretty closely, but having that conversation took enough of the frustration load off me that I could work with her a-ok after that.

      1. gecko*

        Figuratively sat down with, I should say–I wasn’t acting as a manager but as the “owner” of the project she was working on, and I casually talked with her about it.

        1. Alice*

          Thanks Gecko and Soupspoon.
          The tricky thing is that I haven’t done a postmortem with him, and my boss doesn’t want me to (I asked her explicitly).
          I don’t actually know if he knows it’s his fault. I know because I looked at logs, found out when the mistake was introduced, and observed that there was no testing after that. When we first discovered the mistake together, he didn’t take responsibility, but that could mean lots of things – he realizes his mistake but is embarrassed, he doesn’t realize it, he doesn’t remember it…. It’s hard to tell whether he’s learned a lesson from the episode.
          We’ve got the workplace culture and interpersonal relationship where I can say “lesson learned – we should always communicate about and test changes” but not “I learned this lesson from the mistake that you made.”
          Thanks for helping me talk this through.

  50. wafflesfriendswork*

    Not a question, but I finally started meds for my ADHD for the first time since high school–so this is my first time at work with them. The recent posts about working while not neurotypical inspired me to finally seek treatment again. I know they’re only a piece of the puzzle for my success and not a cure-all, but I’m feeling really good and alert and finally feeling confident! Hoping this gives me some of the drive I’ve needed. It’s been so easy throughout my life to feel like I’m not trying hard enough (which contributed to some anxiety I’ve felt all through college and starting my career). Also going to implement some of the strategies from the commenters in those threads, and I’m thankful for those posts!

    1. JokersandRogues*

      My spouse had great results from getting a diagnosis and meds to assist their focus. Honestly, it’s been like a miracle, their personality and intelligence shine through without the fog/mask of ADD/depression across them.

    3. Lilysparrow*

      Hooray!

      You can accomplish so many more satisfying and important things when you’re not using up all your energy on basic functions. Enjoy the leverage!

  51. Amber Rose*

    Someone almost killed six people earlier this week. Because of complacency. I still struggle to understand how anyone can be like, “This is super deadly if I make a small mistake, but eh. Whatever.” So now NOBODY is allowed to use the dangerous stuff until I SAY they can. :<

    In other news, my new coworker is basically nice and we get along most of the time, but she's also often super obnoxious, if that makes sense? She'll talk in weird accents and then laugh loudly at how funny she is, talk about what an internet troll she is, talk loudly on the phone with her boyfriend and talk about the crap she pulls when she's drunk, to the point where even my other heavy drinking, bar fighting coworker was like "maybe you should tone it down." She also sings constantly. Less so than before I asked her to stop, but still quite frequently. And she's kinda passive aggressive about it, like, "Oh, but you don't LIKE my singing. Sorry!"

    I feel weirdly conflicted with my feeling that "she's not a bad person and does her work well" but also "is she a science experiment on how irritating a person can be before they become unable to function in society?"

    2. Enough*

      My nephewv’s wife was effected by a co-worker’s mistake. They worked in a lab and she got exposed to something that put her in the hospital. She is fine now but could have ended up with lifelong problems.

    3. ElspethGC*

      “I still struggle to understand how anyone can be like, “This is super deadly if I make a small mistake, but eh. Whatever.””
      ^ This. People are terrifying.

      My dad’s a senior chemist at an oil refinery that produces a lot of jet fuel, most of it getting sent straight to a local airport to be used for Europe-wide flights. A couple of years ago, someone in his lab got caught fudging results of the tests they have to do on the fuel every step of the way to make sure it won’t, y’know, blow up or anything, and that it contains under the allowed limit of pollutants and all that. Couldn’t be bothered to run tests on the fuel before they sent it out, so made up results. For *jet fuel*. For flights with *hundreds* of people.

      1. Amber Rose*

        It’s always the gases/fuels. In our case, someone in the lab was running percent level gas and didn’t bother to leak test his fittings before opening the bottle. Flooded the whole room. If you get a face full of that stuff you’re done for. He’s lucky everyone was far enough away for it not to be a huge threat. It’s heavier than air, but that’s not gonna save you if your face is right by the cap or if it fills the room.

        And of course, there’s the mustard gas-esque stuff I confiscated from R&D a while ago because we lack the appropriate equipment. It’ll melt your skin off. You really wanna play with that? 0_o

        1. LCL*

          How did the people in the lab find out about the leak? Do you use those portable gas monitors?

  52. Friday*

    New job time!!! I just managed to land a great opportunity with a 30% pay increase, direct path to professional licensure, and growth opportunity beyond that! Also, tons of PTO and work-life balance. Am over the moon about this.

    Interesting twist though – husband already works here! Small company, same department. He and I have been thinking through a lot about how to work this, maintaining professional boundaries, etc. etc. and we’ve separately addressed this with our boss too who also feels that we’ll work well together. Husband and I used to work together a long time ago, and have been in the same industry and on the same career path for many years, and are both nearing the peak of our careers. So we’re pretty confident that things will go well for us, but does anyone here have any direct experience with working with a spouse/serious SO? Anything advice for us?

    1. Hope*

      My spouse works for the same large company I work for, in a completely different department. So we’re at the same location, but in different buildings, which helps a lot, I think. We mostly don’t interact at work during work time unless there’s a company-wide meeting, but we will leave together to get lunch, and we do sometimes go get coffee together. We avoid PDA, obviously. Many of my coworkers know spouse (spouse’s job sometimes means he comes over to my department for stuff), and I know some of spouse’s coworkers (my job doesn’t require me to go over to spouse’s department, but I’ve met them because of after-work things). It’s not really been a big deal, but again, we’ve got more natural separation in our jobs than it sounds like you will have.

      I’d mainly be concerned about dealing with time off, since if you’re going on vacations together, your department will be down two people instead of just one, and that might have some negative impact on coworkers?

  53. Lucette Kensack*

    Hi all. Let me introduce myself. I’m a very long-time regular who, until today, used a handle that included my real name and some info about my sector/work. Over the past few months I’ve noticed that I’ve felt less comfortable using my regular handle (because I’ve revealed enough over the years that I think it would be pretty easy to figure out who I was in real life) and have been using temporary anonymous names. So here’s my new persona!

    1. Troutwaxer*

      I’ve felt the same need. Ten years ago I would have been posting here under my real name, but after ***** took office I started using “Troutwaxer” every place I post.

    2. Mr. Tyzik*

      I’ve had a few usernames since I’ve been here. When I first started posting when AAM was small, I used my real name. Once social media picked up, I switched to pseudonyms. Once I feel like I’ve shared too much, I change the pseudonym. I changed my pseudonym earlier this year.

  54. Need to think of a name*

    Handed in my notice, thought long and hard but decided to take a year off and do some travelling. (I received an inheritance so thought its now or never and my boss is getting worse and now going part time). I only have to give a month’s notice but due to being key to a small team I decided to give them three. My boss argued over how much notice I needed to give, and then later was quizzing to find out what I am doing after the time off.

    I refused to be drawn and said we need to sit and come up with a plan on what projects he would like me to focus on, but it looks like he is just going to ignore the situation and hasn’t really thought of all the implications. I’m not the only one looking for an out but I think I’m the last one they expected to leave.

    1. Scion*

      Three months notice sounds crazy to me. I’m sure you’re not in the US, but here 2 weeks is the standard/minimum. A month would be generous.

    2. fposte*

      Good for you. Advice in advance, just in case: they will still not be fully prepared for you to go when you go, and you don’t need to worry about it when it happens.

      1. Need to think of a name*

        UK based so would normally be a month, I’ve been here 18 years by the time I leave so I totally get they won’t be ready. If I was on a slightly different contract it would be three months notice anyway but think things changed in a previously TUPE situation.

        Will keep same mobile but won’t necessarily answering it for everybody!!

  55. psychresearcher*

    My team is hiring a new person, and (suddenly and unexpectedly) myself and my supervisor will be the one doing the lion’s share of the initial vetting, interviewing, etc. Neither of us have any previous experience doing that, and I’d like to do it the ‘right’ way as much as possible. I have a sense from reading this blog of the kinds of questions to avoid, but I don’t really know what questions I actually should ask, or at which stages of the interview process I should ask them. For this intro-level position, past experience is less important than qualities like being detail-oriented, conscientious, working well solo and with others, etc. So, I think interviews should be weighted fairly heavily, compared to resume info. Has Alison addressed this in the past, maybe? My search didn’t pull up anything, but if anyone remembers an article that might help, or has any interviewing tips generally, that would be much appreciated!

    1. fposte*

      There’s a ton of stuff in the archives and in Alison’s book; I would definitely dig through the archives rather than reinventing the wheel.

      In general, I don’t think of resumes vs. interviews in a weight sense–they’re both ways we find out about the candidate. Ultimately, you’ll be working with a person, not a resume or an interview. I think you should consider, though, how you plan to discern if your candidates are detail oriented, conscientious, and work well solo and with others beyond their merely saying that they totally do. That’s where you draw on a resume to discuss their past experiences with them–and also where, if appropriate, you have them perform a task for you (drafting an email, for instance, would be a perfectly reasonable thing to have an intro-level employee do on the spot–give them 15 minutes and a laptop with wifi disabled if you don’t want them to use any online templates.

    2. Penguin*

      It might help you (both of you) to ask yourselves “How can I tell whether a person would work well in the role?” Once you know what you need to find out, deciding how to learn that information should hopefully be more apparent.

  56. Mad Scientist*

    Hi, I was wondering how you guys would handle this situation!

    I have a coworker who thinks she is smarter than everyone because she went to a fancy school and has a million seemingly unrelated degrees. We are working together on a large project, and an SOP needs to be written for the procedure that we put together. My manager said this in passing in a meeting that we would have to work on it eventually, but since we’ve never done it before, she said she would sit down with us and give us more guidance before we had to actually write the procedure.

    Apparently ignoring my manager, she started to write the SOP without my knowledge. When our manager sent out the email for the meeting to go over this, she responded with something along the lines of “oh, I’ve already done MY part.” I responded all that I didn’t because I wasn’t familiar with what we were doing and waiting for the meeting.

    Her Boyfriend works in our large company too, in a different department from us. Our functions don’t overlap at all. There is a cabinet right next to her computer that I needed to get something out of, and I saw an IM message up on her computer (she wasn’t there) from her to her boyfriend, saying that “OMG I am going to punch MadScientist in her stupid, fat, ugly face.” She mentioned me by name. I took a photo of the message quickly on my phone, but haven’t said anything yet. This happened this morning.

    What do you guys recommend?

    1. Four lights*

      I would ignore the IM. It stinks to know though.

      I would approach your manager about the SOP and say something like, “I was under the impression that we would start work on the SOP after we met with you, which is why I haven’t done anything yet. I just wanted to clarify that that was the case, or if I should be working on it already.” Basically, you want to confirm you’re meeting your manager’s expectations. It doesn’t matter what your coworker does/thinks; she’s not the one in charge.

      Let us know if coworker did the SOP all wrong; it’s entirely possible.

      1. Mad Scientist*

        Thank you for your advice! I touched base with my manager and she said she was not expecting me to work on it until after we met, which is what I thought.

    2. bunniferous*

      That is so, so not cool. I have no words.

      I think I would go up to her and say calmly that if she has an issue with you you would prefer she come talk to you instead of IM her boyfriend. But I too like to live dangerously.

    3. Namast'ay in Bed*

      Oh that’s awful, I’m sorry about your terrible coworker. I might suggest meeting privately with your manager to a) just check that you are fine in waiting to start the SOP until your meeting (which personally, you are 100% right to do and your coworker is wrong to jump the gun) and b) mention that you are concerned about working with your coworker because of her snarky email and the awful message you saw, and you want advice in making this combined project go smoothly. I think the manager needs to be brought in the loop on this at the very least, because this definitely has the possibility to affect your ability to do your job, if it hasn’t already.

      And not that I support the terrible coworker’s behavior at all (they suck), but this is just another reason to always lock your computer when you walk away from it. I don’t advocate being a horrible person but if you insist on being a jerk maybe don’t just leave it out there for the world to see. (Or maybe do, so you get your comeuppance.)

    4. SciDiver*

      Not much for advice about what to do, but maybe helpful in thinking about the situation. Her behavior is 100% about her and not about you. Your manager scheduled a meeting to talk about how she wanted you to do this–you did nothing wrong by not charging ahead and doing it without any guidance or understanding like your coworker did. While you were getting a file you needed as part of your job, she was using a company system to trash talk a coworker. If she’s aggressive or rude towards you in a way that makes it difficult to work with her or get your portion of the work done, definitely bring that up to your manager so she can address it. You shouldn’t have to deal with your coworker’s ego and poor attitude.

    5. LCL*

      I actually wouldn’t ignore this. I normally suggest to ignore minor things. But she crossed a line by saying she was going to punch you, which takes this out of the minor category. Even if she is all talk and would never do it, you can’t make serious threats like this at work. Show the message to your manager.

    6. The Green Lawintern*

      If it was regular snark I would say ignore it, but threatening violence (even jokingly) feels like it’s so out of bounds that it warrants a talk with your/her manager.

      1. The New Wanderer*

        Yeah, there’s a big difference between saying “OMG Coworker is so annoying” and what this person did. It’s entirely appropriate to bring a threat of violence to the attention of a manager; even when it wasn’t said to OP directly, it was left in a format that was visible to OP. Someone at my work was suspended for a week for using indirect violent language to another coworker (not a direct threat but a thinly veiled one), and the suspended person had been written up at least once prior for similar reasons.

    7. Hardcore parkour*

      There are a couple of issues here that should be handled separately. First, the SOP. There are a couple of possibilities. She might have done it all wrong, in which case you both will have to do the whole thing over. Alternatively, she might have done a great job, which wins her some points (boo!) but doesn’t necessarily make you look bad since you were going with what the manager said and the manager obviously didn’t think it was that urgent. Being super gung-ho about something when you don’t need to be sometimes backfires and makes you look crazy rather than smart. Anyway, nothing for you to do there except what your boss told you to. Leave her to her snooty ways.

      The IM is much worse, and I think that you would be justified bringing this to your boss. This is really mean and completely inappropriate workplace conversation, even in jest. If she found out you reported her, she might accuse you of snooping and invading her privacy and taking it all out of context. Which doesn’t excuse her one bit, but she sounds like the type to deflect blame aggressively and escalate hostilities. Stand firm if she does.

      1. Mad Scientist*

        You hit the nail on the head with this co-worker! I used some advice above and told her that I would appreciate her talking to me in the future instead of her boyfriend, and I did contact my boss about the SOP. When we talked I told her I was having an issue with the co-worker, I didn’t go into specifics but I just told her that she said something really nasty that I wasn’t supposed to see. At this point, she asked me if I felt threatened, and I told her that I wasn’t feeling threatened but I was feeling angry and hurt. She then sent an email to the entire department basically reminding everyone that we’re all adults and we need to be polite and civil to each other (because here a group of adults needs that, apparently.) She did tell me that projects are changing in the future and after this one is done, I won’t have to work with her anymore. :) Thanks for all your advice!

  57. Anon phd*

    Got a “how have you coped” question. I am a PhD student in a STEM field in North America (keeping it vague because my field/academic community is pretty small). I had my defense, passed it but, ended up with a major revision to the dissertation only (many reasons..though mostly I would say it was supervisor inattention/ineptitude). I also have a job (that I most definitely need!) that is between 35-40h/week. I have all the academic, editorial and friend/family supports needed, my supervisor is very hands off (and though this may sound bad, but his greater imvolvement at this point only complicates things). I have a good regimen and structured plan for getting thesw revisions done, I keep a good balance to ensure I get exercise and some fun and relaxation but there are still difficult, frustrating, “how will I ever get this done?!” and “when will this be over and I finally have my life back?!” moments. Has anyone been through a major revision? Any final stage survival tips? If you wanna commiserate, I am game for that too haha. Some days are just HARD.

    1. Darren*

      I had to do some pretty major changes to my dissertation after it was submitted (in part because there was an entire chapter missing that both me and my supervisor would have sworn was in there but clearly wasn’t but one of the reviewers particularly had quite a lot of problems with the dissertation as a whole). I think it took a good three months for me to get the revisions done around work, and it wasn’t really as good as I would have wanted but I just wanted it to be over with. The guy still wasn’t happy with the dissertation pointing out other flaws and issues but in my country a reviewer can only argue about the changes they pointed out initially, because he left them out of his initial comments I didn’t have to make any further changes.

      1. Anon phd*

        Oh man, your “one particular reviewer” sounds like my evil_reviewer, the guy sounds just like yours, chip on his shoulder, looking to prove something to the world..uggh. Thanks for sharing your story, made me feel a bit better. I have a formal revision letter so evil_reviewer shouldn’t be allowed to kick up any more major fuss for me, after I am done with my edits, only minor comments. For me I will get to the 5/6-month mark post-defense to complete all this. Already past the three month mark.

    2. AvonLady Barksdale*

      Well, how about this: you’ve just made me so optimistic, because my partner defends next month and I’ve been so worried (there are political issues), but knowing people pass even when they have to do major revisions makes me calmer.

      But enough about me. Can you take some PTO from your job? You might do well with a day or two of absolutely nothing so you can clear your head a little.

      1. Anon phd*

        Thrilled to make you calmer! :) if my annoying PhD experience gives somebody comfort that they will be ok that makes me happy.
        Thanks so much for the suggestion of taking PTO. I actually did that a few weeks back and it was great in helping me rest while I vegged out. I was so rejuvenated after a bit of netflix, a delicious brunch and a nature walk. I should do it again soon.

        People absolutely pass even with revisions. I was told mine isn’t even that bad (it always feels the worst lol, but perspective is important). Other friends know stories of folks having had to do extra data collection and those folks passed too. As for political issues, in addition to my supervisor’s ineptitude, political issues were also part of me getting that major revision. Evil_reviewer, mentioned above in response to Darren, had an axe to grind with my supervisor, which I found out about quite late in the game. But don’t worry! My story is not your partner’s story :) Always keep in mind, that since your partner passed their candidacy and is approved to do their defense, that means the school and their supervisor(s) have deemed them phd-worthy (for lack of a better term :D) . That is what my dear friends kept telling me as I stressed out before my defense and they were right :) Best of luck to your partner.

        1. AvonLady Barksdale*

          Thank you! The poor guy has been through the ringer and had another blow laid on him this week. Just trying to keep things pushing through for the next few weeks.

  58. ThatGirl*

    My manager has become increasingly frazzled seeming and is doing poorly at communicating things with us. She forgets to tell us if someone is out sick or running late. She sends me half-formed instructions and expects me to read her mind on the rest of it. We miss important or useful information. She seems open to feedback but how can I tell her to give me/us all of the information the first time?

    1. Zephy*

      Sounds like there’s something else at play here. I don’t know what the relationship is like between you, but maybe ask her how she’s doing, if she’s okay?

      1. ThatGirl*

        You probably won’t see this, she definitely has a lot on her plate at work and possibly personal stuff. Thing is, I can’t properly help with the work stuff if I’m missing info. I’m not mad but it’s a little frustrating.

  59. Job History Dilemma*

    Not sure what to do with a one year-ish job in my work history that in retrospect was a flustercluck.

    After graduating from college, I worked full time for the same company I had worked a couple of summer and winter breaks as a part time employee (still worked 40 hour weeks). I was there for 2 years, then left when I moved to get married. I had a new job lined up, but it was such a bad fit I asked for my old job back and worked from home for a year before being laid off when they redesigned my department.

    The place I had moved to is a small city and still lags behind in terms of economic recovery and I couldn’t really find anything similar, so I took a job with a small family owned company to train as a…lets call it llama cage installer. It was owned by a married couple where one was the main llama cage installer and the other did the marketing and back office work. The office was in their house. I liked their mission and thought I could be good at it. After a couple months, they let me know it wasn’t working out, but the administrative work I did for them using my old skill set was so good they wanted to make me a back office employee. Frankly, the way they did this was terrible and they told me they wanted to meet me while I was with family for thanksgiving and basically made me think I was getting fired without any “hey, we need you to do better or we’ll need to let you go” conversations. I needed the money, even if it was pitiful, so I stayed on.

    A few months later, the couple had a pretty nasty divorce and that definitely changed everything. I decided to leave and go back to grad school, but my boss may have taken it personally even though they really liked my work. I really should have left earlier when I started seeing red flags, but my spouse was a grad student and I couldn’t not work.

    We’re moving to a bigger city for my spouse’s job so I’m starting a job search. Now that I’m job hunting, I’m not sure what to do with this one. It was for just under a year, and while I was able to do a few good things, at the end it turned more into being another receptionist and didn’t really add much to my skill set. I also don’t trust that my former boss would provide a good reference and not try to get back at me for leaving during a difficult time. I would have a little over 3 years working for one place, a blank year, then 1 1/2 years as a full time grad student. Now I’m back in my original line of work and have been at my current job for a little over a year.

    Should I leave that toxic job off my resume but include it in my work history? Should I just remove it from the resume and work history? Should I highlight what I was able to accomplish on my resume, but not use them as a reference? What about on my LinkedIn? My first boss and my current boss would be willing to give me references – my current boss already knew that I might need to move but really likes my work and would definitely be willing to give a good reference.

  60. downtown funk*

    Can I just say, I do not really care if your dog is barking in the background of conference calls, but I honestly need two specific workers to stop screaming at their dogs already.

    I also need them to stop screaming at their kids, but at least their kids have language skills that the dogs lack. For god’s sake, your dog is not gonna stop barking just because you yell at them.

    1. Anne (with an “e”)*

      I **completely** understand your frustration. My sister always screams at her dogs, to no avail whatsoever. Her screaming is so much worse than the barking. Plus, her screaming useless and ineffective.

  61. Moonbeam Malone*

    Boss is on a clening kick and wants to declutter and have all ofgice supplies stored put of view. Cool! Unfortunately also views storage cabinets and shelving units as clutter so we have less space to put the things that need to be stored out of sight. Happy Friday!

    2. Grouchy 2 cents*

      Oh gawd I had a client like this. Bought 2 of everything, didn’t like shelves and cabinets but insisted the space be completely clutter free. Like how is that EVER gonna work unless you throw away 99% of your crap? They redid a few rooms in their house and still didn’t add storage and I was like ya, I’m done.

    3. MagicEyes*

      One time my supervisor freaked out because I had some folders in my office. My horrible coworker needed some folders, I was out of the office, so they took them out of my office. Instead of doing what normal people do and letting me know she’d used some of the folders, my supervisor moved them all into our office supply cabinet. I am in no way responsible for ordering supples for anyone else. We can all order anything we need, so it was not my job to supply any of my coworkers with any office supplies.

      So then my supervisor decided I shouldn’t keep office supplies in my office. There is no eye-roll big enough for this. I ignored that and I hid some folders in my office so I would have some when I needed them. There’s more to the story, but I’ll stop there.

  62. Namast'ay in Bed*

    How to boost motivation during a slow period?

    I am currently in a very slow period at work, which I know is temporary. I know this is a great time to do trainings and tutorials (we have access to lynda.com and other resources), and I should be taking advantage of it to boost my skills and learn new things…but I just can’t find the motivation to do so. It feels extra wasteful because I know that things will pick back up again, and combined with a major contributor on my small team leaving with no replacement in sight and my manager starting to work part-time, things will be crazier than ever and I’ll be kicking myself later for not taking advantage of my downtime now.

    Perhaps it’s because I don’t have specific trainings to complete or skills to learn that I feel like I’m floundering, but I should still be doing something productive with my time – I just don’t know specifically what it is, just that I should be doing it. Does anyone have any suggestions on how to get my butt in gear?

    1. Internet Stranger*

      Hi, just something for you to consider…
      I was browsing this open thread a few minutes ago with my coworker whose family is from India. She winced a little when she saw your username. She said it was disrespectful and dismissive of an entire culture and language. I know that AAM commenters generally like to be respectful, so I thought I would share this with you. Have a good day.

      1. Namast'ay in Bed*

        Oh geez I had no idea. That’s very disappointing, I’ll have to change my name.

    2. EmmaBird*

      Any chance that you have annual goals to refer to for guidance? I typically have a learning component in my list of annual goals from my boss that guides what I go to on Lynda when I have spare time. Starting there is nice because you can use that as leverage later on.

      But in terms of motivation– sometimes I just let myself kind of waste time at work, especially when I know that things are going to pick up soon. As long as you’re not spending whole days doing nothing I don’t think it’s a big deal and might actually be helpful for your energy levels down the line.

  63. Jules the First*

    I’m having trouble with the most junior member of my team of teapot makers. She’s eager to take ownership of her very own teapots but has about a quarter of the experience of the others in her job title (who are doing simple teapots themselves and making handles and lids for more complex ones under the guidance of my senior teapot makers), so she’s very much still learning the ropes and her teapots are unsellably wonky when she’s allowed to work independently. We’ve had her work on lids, handles, and spouts for simple teapots to build her skills, but at least half of them are not up to the quality we need. This would be annoying but liveable if she were actually getting better at it (however slowly), but she’s not…largely because she won’t ask questions and she bristles (and then weeps or avoids) when given feedback. She also complains about being micromanaged when she’s allowed to work on whole teapots (in reality, we’re just checking in on each component to make sure it’s up to scratch before she proceeds with the next bit, but she often has to do the spout two or three times before we get one that’s acceptable) and otherwise left doing the “boring” bits when the rest of the team is getting to do whole teapots and try their hand at more complicated pieces.

    If we can’t solve this, I’m going to have to let her go, which I’d rather not do. Any folks out there who struggled to absorb feedback and can give me suggestions for how to approach it with her? I have already been honest with her that her work is not up to scratch and that she needs to work more slowly and methodically if she wants to succeed in this job…which has had no appreciable impact.

    1. EmmaBird*

      The thing that sticks out to me here is something Alison has written about (way more eloquently than I will, she’s got some great scripts in the archives)– that her emotional response to feedback is preventing you from coaching her adequately.

      I’ve had this problem with interns in the past and things went much more smoothly for me when I tackled the fact that they weren’t receptive to feedback first… then once we had that down I was able to deliver feedback as you’d expect. And I had an intern that would visibly tear up if not sniffle slightly when I was providing basic corrections so I feel your frustration! In my case I was working with students so I wasn’t seeing amazing improvement, but good enough improvement that no one needed to be fired and the work got better.

      1. valentine*

        This might work if you say you need her to respond calmly to and to take on feedback and improve, but not if you indulge her turning it into therapy. You don’t need to know why she feels bad and thinks weeping at work is great.

        But have you actually said her job’s in jeopardy? Because she may think everyone’s just being a big meanie and she’s not that bad and she can just tread water. I’m wondering how she’d react to “If yon’t do x by y, I’ll have to fire you.”

    2. Elle*

      I think this goes back to Alison’s frequent point. Have you made it clear that this is a pattern, or are you merely feeding back “in the moment”? If you haven’t already, I think there’s value in sitting her down and explaining everything you’ve said here (including the part about potentially needing to let her go). If she’s complaining about micromanagement and lack of opportunities, it sounds like she is lacking an understanding of what success looks like in her role.

      1. Sam Sepiol*

        Yeah, I’m not sure why you don’t want to let her go, based on what you’ve said here. I think you need to be very clear that you need to see better work and better ability to take feedback or you can’t keep her on

      2. The New Wanderer*

        I have to agree. It sounds like you’ve been pretty clear about what she has to do to improve, and she’d rather cry, get defensive or ignore the feedback, and then complain that she’s not allowed to do more complicated things when she’s still having to redo the basics multiple times. Overall it sounds like a bad fit and the sooner she moves on (voluntarily or not), the better for everyone.

        Whenever I read about people like that, or like the ones who are objectively bad at something but claim to be experts, I always want the manager/supervisor to ask, “What is it about this that you enjoy? And that you think you’re good at?” Genuine curiosity, not sarcasm, but what compels them to stay in a role they aren’t doing well? I expect some people just don’t want to be quitters and the sooner they can understand that giving up on a skill that’s just not happening isn’t quitting, it’s giving yourself an opportunity to find something you can excel at, the better.

    4. Someone Else*

      If you really aren’t ready to let her go, you could always pair her up with a mentor that can guide and coach her through the learning phrases. Bristling and/ or avoiding feedback seems a bit much though, and I know some people can’t help but cry when they are given feedback, even if they don’t want to cry. These are two separate issues to me, she needs to be coached into taking feedback more professionally, and then if you still want to keep her, the mentor thing might work. Do you have guidelines, time frames, and other helpful things for newbie? I know that when I first start training someone, I normally give them a frame of reference for how long they have to the more mundane tasks, and then once those are mastered, be moved up. Laying it out up front, and letting them see a light at the end of the proverbial rainbow seems to help.

  64. AnonyMs.*

    I have about had it with some people here and I’m trying really hard to be cordial and kind. Yesterday my boss asked someone for what sounded to me like a relatively simple report, but I was not surprised that she had questions about it, because that happens. But it was something outside of what she ordinarily does and has done for over 20 years, so she completely freaked out about it. Like, went to him and complained that he asked her to do it. When he described what he wanted, which was in fact relatively simple, she continued to argue with him. There were tears. It was loud. So loud, in fact, that I could hear it through my headphones.

    This is a person who refuses to take on additional work and completely refuses to step outside of her comfort zone. When I say that, I mean if you ask her to do something that is not on her list of regular tasks, she FLIPS out. Eventually she will calm down, but the whole (small) office gets to hear this. It’s hard to describe how simple this request was, but it’s similar to this: she’s used to running an Excel macro by hitting a button and creating a report that is complete, and she was asked to take some of that report and sort it, then delete some columns. Something that if I wasn’t sure how to do it, I would find someone I trust and ask for help and get it done to the best of my abilities because it’s part of my job.

    The worst is that my boss basically shakes his head and moves on. I so want him to reprimand her in some way, but no one here does that. We have a non-existent management structure and it irks me to no end. One of my colleagues is having some real issues with someone she supervises but technically does not manage, and the frustration is building.

    I realize that in this particular situation, this is Not My Problem, but it effects all of us who are physically present. We get distracted by her freakouts, and then there’s the blatant lack of action from my boss. I’m mostly just venting, but I’m trying SO hard to get along. For what it’s worth, I’m pretty senior though I have no direct reports, and for various reasons I can’t leave this job for about another six months.

  65. Masters student of none*

    Can I get some encouragement/advice as a recent graduate student grad looking for a job? I’ve been looking since January and had like 2 interviews but no offers. I’ve been told that with my degree and the area I’m looking in it can take awhile, but obviously I’m still pretty depressed about all this. It’s hard when all your friends from school are finding jobs. It took me 6 months after undergrad graduation to find a “real” job so I’m not super worried yet, but this still sucks and I’m questioning all my life choices.

    1. Colette*

      Hang in there. It always takes me 6-7 months to find a job, and I’m not a new grad – some fields and skill sets take longer than others.

    2. AvonLady Barksdale*

      It took me 8 months after my MA, and that was with three years of work experience prior to school. It sucked, absolutely. In the meantime I interned (I started the internship to complete my degree and stayed on for a couple of days/week) and worked retail, which allowed me to make a teeny bit of money and get some structure in my days. I also networked a ton, but my field and grad school were very focused on industry connections. A lot of people in my cohort got jobs right away, and I felt really deflated, but eventually I found a good one that launched a career. But yeah, it can take ages.

  66. University of Trantor*

    Question: Any tips for lunch/dinner interviews?

    Background:
    I have a couple of finalist interviews at different employers coming up later this month. These will essentially be all-day affairs and involve lunch and/or dinner with the search committee or other relevant employees at local-area restaurants.

    If it makes any difference, these positions are in higher education administration (and not faculty, but faculty are involved with the hiring and interview process). For medical reasons, I need to watch my carb intake, too, but I don’t really anticipate that being a problem for these meals; otherwise, I don’t have any food allergies. I don’t usually imbibe alcohol (for personal/medical reasons, but not religious).

    I don’t have much experience with lunch and dinner interviews. I think I’ve done two lunch interviews in my life and that was a number of years ago when I was still a student. I do understand not selecting foods that are difficult to eat or the priciest things on the menu.

    My concern stems from the fact that I’m not a terribly extroverted or gregarious person. I can do small talk, but I will eventually run out of meaningful content if the interviewers are more on the quiet side. My hobbies are rather mundane and definitely not things that everyone would enjoy (e.g., video games). These positions are within my current specialty, so I don’t anticipate running out of content for job-related discussions (at least no more so than a non-meal interview). I just want to make sure I strike the appropriate balance between direct job-related topics and more conversational ones.

    Any advice on how to conduct a good mealtime interview and keep the conversation flowing would be much appreciated!

    1. Chief of Staff*

      In my experience, a good way to keep things flowing is to ask questions about the other attendees. This is also a good time to ask about where people live, where their kids go to school (if you have school aged kids), ect.

      If a candidate doesn’t ask those types of “lifestyle” questions, I often find myself questioning whether they are serious about the position.

      Also, I try to send the most outgoing and fun faculty to these dinners to help take some of the pressure off of the candidate so hopefully your visit scheduler will be similar.

      1. LadyByTheLake*

        Yikes — I trust you are not in the US where bringing up kids in the interview setting would be extremely problematic. I have no issues with lifestyle questions about pets, places to live, schools, previous work, innocuous hobbies — but kids are an interview no no — as bad as asking what church someone goes to or where their “people” are from.

        1. Chief of Staff*

          I meant for the OP to ask where the other dinner attendee’s kids go to school.

          I assume you’re not in academia where it is very common for potential faculty/administrators to want to know about the area before they commit to uprooting their families and moving.

    2. Friday*

      Pick food the same color as your shirt, just in case! For real that’s what I did at my last lunch interview and it lessened my stress. I also picked things I could eat quickly without having to spend a ton of time chewing (and I still didn’t finish my food).

    3. CheeryO*

      I’ve only ever done one lunch interview as part of a day-long interview process, but I worked myself up over it since I’m fairly quiet and also a bit nervy about eating in front of people I don’t know well. The company set me up with a couple other women close to my age, so the conversation ended up being more fun and natural than I would have imagined. I definitely asked a few questions about their experience with the company, but we spent most of the time talking about the area (it would have been a big move for me, so they told me about different neighborhoods, the mass transit system, etc.) and light personal stuff (upcoming trips, pets, sports, where they grew up, etc.). I didn’t end up eating much, but they were really understanding and kind about it.

      I do think there’s something inherently stressful about lunch/dinner interviews, and I think any reasonable person would understand that you might be nervous. It’s okay to aim for pleasant and engaged – you don’t have to be perfect. I think the fact that you’re even thinking about what to talk about means you’ll be just fine!

    4. Steggy Saurus*

      I’ve been on both sides. Try to get something not too “saucy” to eat! :)

      In my circumstances, the interviewers at the lunch/dinner were handpicked from a wider array of potential constituents (I’m a librarian – I’d get at least one subject faculty member and two librarians who know nothing about my specialty, with usually at least one search committee member joining in. I am a complete introvert (although I can usually hide it pretty well in interviews) and don’t remember having any difficulties keeping the conversation going as either the interviewee or the interviewer.

      I always have a set of good “work lifestyle” questions ready for this time – what’s the office environment like, what’s the commute like, get some info on the student communities. Ask about their specialties (especially if there’s a faculty member there)! Ask about campus life (assuming it’s not something you should have researched for your specific position). I mean, hopefully they’re going to talk enough so that you get a chance to actually eat your meal. :)

      I have been at dinners as an interviewee where the interviewers knew this was their one chance to see me, so I got a little bit of grilling on things others had already asked me.

    5. Wishing You Well*

      Use your best table manners, too. I suspect that’s part of the interview process.

    6. University of Trantor*

      Thanks for the advice, everyone!

      I confess I hadn’t really thought that much about work and local area lifestyle questions, but I really appreciate people’s perspectives on this area. One of the employers is located in a town that…isn’t an especially attractive place to live for many qualified candidates (and this would be an interstate move for me), so this is particularly relevant.

  67. Peaches*

    I wrote in the past couple weeks on the open thread about my new coworker who wouldn’t stop asking to use my personal iPad for work reasons (despite me saying no multiple times), and then essentially said she was sorry that *I* misunderstood when I was very direct about not wanting her to use it.

    Anyway, she emailed me a couple days ago asking if she could treat me to lunch Friday (today), because she “would love to sit down and chat with [me]. :)” I agreed to go with her, but I have no idea what to expect! I’m honestly a bit scared.

    1. downtown funk*

      Good luck! Hope it has nothing to do with the iPad and re-litigating her desire to use it.

    2. Tiptoe Through the Tulips*

      I’m worried she’s going to ask to use your fork and knife even though she has her own. Yours look shinier and will undoubtedly work better than what she has.

      Kidding aside, is it possible she’s seen the error of her ways and wants to make it up to you? Unlikely given her previous lack of understanding, but maybe give it a shot and see what she’s up to. Personally, I’d need to go in order to satisfy my curiosity.

    4. Toodie*

      I want the update too!

      It occurs to me just now that maybe she doesn’t understand how you’re using the word “personal”? Maybe she thinks the iPad was purchased by the office, but _assigned_ to you, and that’s why you call it your personal iPad? Just a thought. We’ve had a run of miscommunications like that at my office this week.

    5. CatCat*

      I don’t know what’s about to go down, but I do know that I want to hear all about it!

    6. Peaches*

      Oh. My Gosh.

      This took a turn I didn’t expect. So, my new coworker was supposed to be at our corporate office (30 minutes away from our office) from 7:30-11:30 this morning. She was training with a couple of higher ups at corporate (Joe and Sue) who are very well known in the company. Anyway, she was DISMISSED an hour into the training, and sent back to our office. Apparently, she was “overly confrontational” and questioning everything they were training her on. When she returned to our office around 9 or so, I wondered why she was back so early, but didn’t question it…that was until her boss, Bob (my previous boss), called me into his office.

      He asked my honest opinion of her, which I told him (in short, she hasn’t made a great impression). He told me that others in the office had given him similar feedback. Then, he told me how he had got a call from Joe, who was very upset at New Coworker’s horrible attitude and push back to their training. Now, I’ve met Joe before – he’s a VERY chill man. So, I know New Coworker must have really ticked him off.

      After I talked to Bob, he called New Coworker into his office. I couldn’t make out words (nor was I intentionally snooping), but New Coworker was talking VERY loudly. We had planned on going to lunch at 1:00, but she was still in Bob’s office at 12:55. So, I sent her an email telling her I thought it’d be best to reschedule lunch for another time, packed up my stuff, and went to grab lunch by myself.

      I should also mention, New Coworker was hired via a staffing agency and less than a month into her 90-day probation period. So…not sure if she’s going to make it out!

      2. Wishing You Well*

        Don’t meet with her outside work for anything at this point. It’s not in your best interest.
        I hope this resolves soon.

        1. Peaches*

          Yeah, I’m certainly trying to avoid that. I don’t want to get pulled into the middle of anything. I’m not a very confrontational person, so if she vents to me I think my passiveness could be taken for agreeableness.

      3. CatCat*

        This was a dramatic turn of events! I cannot wait for the next installment in next week’s open thread.

      4. Foreign Octopus*

        I really hope you do weekly updates with this because I am now intensely curious to see how this all turns out.

      5. Anne (with an “e”)*

        Wow! I would avoid this person and definitely not go to lunch. Please update.
        (This message was sent from my *personal* IPad.)

  68. softcastle mccormick*

    I’ve been in my first job after college for about a year and a half now, and while I like it, there isn’t a ton of growth that comes out of what is essentially just an admin position. As such, I’m really interested in hopefully moving up internally in our company to a position on the teapot-buying team in our headquarters. I’ve made a lot of contacts at our HQ as I work closely with a lot of folks there, and I think I’d be a great fit in the right role.

    A couple of months ago I applied and had an interview for a position that turned out to be a lot more senior than I originally had known. My interviewer (the head of the department) called me personally to let me know that while they had to hire someone with more experience, it was clear I was a huge asset to the company, and that I would be kept in mind for future positions. It was actually a great experience–as good as a rejection can get, I suppose. A new position just opened up, and it’s entry level, and I would love to apply, but I don’t want to be seen as “that candidate” who just throws themselves at any position that comes around. Will I look like that if I apply for this job only months after being rejected for the “senior” job?

    1. zora*

      No, you should definitely apply for it!! It would look weird if you started applying for open jobs in completely different departments/with different job tasks. But they literally told yo uthey would keep you in mind for positions like this, AND it’s internal.

      Also, I wouldn’t worry too much about formally applying first, you might be able to just reach out to HR or to the hiring manager and say you are interested, and they might just put you in the pool from your previous application. Go out there and ask for what you want!!!

  69. Tiptoe Through the Tulips*

    Is it ever OK to make up a title for yourself on your resume? I now have a fancy-sounding title after a promotion two years ago, but before this I never had an official title. My company’s not big on them. My actual duties included the sorts of things an Executive Assistant or Office Manager would be in charge of, but I only ever heard my boss refer to us office staff as Administrative Assistants. I’d like to apply for more advanced positions than that, but worry that putting Administrative Assistant on my resume won’t qualify as the years of experience most Executive Assistant or Office Manager positions call for. Would it be OK to come up with my own title and put Executive Assistant (I worked directly with the President/Owner)?

    If it helps, I won’t be able to use anyone from my current job as a reference so it’s not as if a future employer would be calling to verify this.

    1. New Job So Much Better*

      I had to create a title at my last job, because the vendors and agencies wouldn’t deal with me unless I could give them my title. I wore many different hats, so I ended up using something like “Teapot Operations,” and when asked, I could list all the responsibilities I had. I did, however, tell my boss I did this so I could continue doing my job with vendors and agencies. It was either that, or the company president would have to do all communicating. Or he could have given me a title, but that didn’t happen in 20 years.

      I also used Teapot Operations on my resume, and like you, wasn’t using anyone at old job for a reference.

    2. zora*

      If they don’t really have official titles, you are probably fine to put Executive Assitant.

      You could also say “Assistant to the President/Owner” which would get the point across. As Alison has said in her answers, think about what the person answering the phone would say if a reference called to verify your employment. If the reference said “Tiptoe was Executive Assistant from [Date] to [Date]” Would people at your company say, “Yeah, basically!” Or would they say “Um, not really, they weren’t an EA, they were just an Administrative Assistant.”

    3. Earthwalker*

      I was told never to mess with a title. If a call to the previous employer doesn’t confirm that they gave you that title, it could be construed as lying on an application, and disqualify you.

  70. Anongineer*

    I did an initial phone screen (with an internal recruiter) followed by a 30 minute phone interview with the hiring manager for a job that I’m pretty interested in/excited about. The interview with the hiring manager was two weeks ago yesterday and he said he wanted to bring me into the office for an in person interview. Two weeks ago today the recruiter called and said to expect the information by email the following week. The following Monday the internal recruiters sent out an email to an undisclosed group essentially saying that they were switching to a new applicant tracking system and so were going to be delayed in their process, to please be patient and that they hadn’t forgotten about anybody. It’s been almost two weeks now and I still haven’t heard anything – I’m starting to get antsy! I’m wondering if I should reach out with a brief note to him or to the recruiters to find out what’s up/reiterate interest. I know the hiring manager wanted to hire someone pretty quickly, and it’s going to be difficult for me to schedule an in person interview over the next couple of weeks because of prior commitments. Plus, I want to have sufficient time to prepare because I know they’re going to ask for “homework” (based on research I think it’s a one page of writing and a one hour presentation). Thoughts/insights from the commentariat is welcome, thanks!

    1. Lily B*

      Since it has been a week after they said they would , I don’t think a *very brief* follow-up note can hurt you. Since you’ve already sent thank you notes (I’m assuming) I don’t think you need to reiterate interest. Something like the below:

      “Hey X, I understand you’re adjusting to a system, but just wanted to follow up to see if you had any updates on next steps? [Hiring manager] mentioned wanting to schedule an in-person interview, and if that’s still the case, I want to make sure I can schedule around some upcoming commitments. Thanks again for your help!”

  71. Destroyer of Worlds, Empress of Awesome*

    Seeking advice and input from one of the greatest communities on the internet!

    So, after dealing with the morons (who fired me for being a whistleblower) and getting cleared to go back to work after my stress-related cardiomyopathy, I am back at work. But I’m not sure about this job. I need some folks who are detached from it (and me) to give me an objective viewpoint. (For the record, I had worked at another job just prior to this one, from November to March but they went broke…mostly because the owner wasn’t interested in getting new customers. He thought he was charming enough and that was going to bring people to him. Didn’t happen that way, obviously. It didn’t help that he lied to everyone in his orbit.)

    I’m working for a company that….hmmm, let’s just say they will refurbish your teapot if it gets mangled. I am the only one in the office. While the hourly pay isn’t *great*, between that and the commissions, I should be ok financially. But some stuff seems off to me and I’m not sure if it’s a big deal or if I’m just turned around (remember, I worked for Scientologists at one point and then went to the whistleblower morons so my head is kinda messed up as far as employment goes, LOL).

    First, I was told I would be given a key since I am required to be here at 830. No key until today. So, for earlier this week, I was paid for two hours of sitting in my car. Not upset about that. But I haven’t been able to take a lunch all week, which has left me in a bad place. A girl can’t survive on Rice Krispie Treats and Ritz Bits.

    On my first day (Tuesday), I only brought some snacks. No beverage. And there is no water source in this place so by the time I got home I was completely dehydrated. I am just now getting back to normal from that, but it is taking my lungs a little longer due to my COPD. That kinda pissed me off. I couldn’t even leave to go buy a beverage because I didn’t have a key so couldn’t get back in.

    I’ve also found some paperwork that indicates the owner of the company, and the company, has been sued. A LOT. In fact, in one case, he was being sued for $94K and didn’t show up so the other side won by default. His responses to the court were hand-written and riddled with f-bombs and other swear words. (Don’t get me wrong, I could teach sailors to curse but I would NEVER let that seep over into a court filing!)

    The potential to get this company organized and running like a finely tuned car (boss drives a Tesla, BTW) is there. The potential to earn A LOT of money is there. But my heart is telling me that it just might not be worth the hassles I’m dealing with.

    Can you guys help me out and give me a reality check, please????? Is this stuff hinky or am I just gunshy from my past horrid experiences? I just don’t know if it is worth sticking out….the path of least resistance is my preferred path, but I see potential here. I just can’t decide if that alone is worth it.

    1. AMS*

      The key/water/lunch issues – not great, but also probably within the realm of typical new job/onboarding screw ups. Not issuing a key is ridiculous but at least they’re paying you for the time! And the water and lunch… well, bringing water is part of the learning curve I guess, but not necessarily something someone would realize you need to be told. The not taking a lunch thing – not ok, and might also be not legal depending on your state laws? But that could be raised as an issue with your manager.

      All that said, the lawsuit thing is a HUGE red flag. Aside from being regularly sued being a flag, the fact that the boss treats it so cavalierly would make me question what other (legal, regulatory) things he might treat cavalierly.

      1. Destroyer of Worlds, Empress of Awesome*

        He doesn’t know yet that he is paying me for the time but he will when he gets my time sheet today! I was told my start time was 830 so I was here at 830. I’m in Floriduh so we don’t have any lunch/break laws.

        I also agree about the red flags, but wasn’t sure if I was just looking at it through the wrong set of glasses. There are a LOT of regulatory violations (no Workman’s Comp…and this is the construction industry).

      2. Destroyer of Worlds, Empress of Awesome*

        Oh yeah, I almost forgot (but as this is Floriduh and the temps are getting up there right now)…..the thermostat for the a/c is broken. When I left at 445 yesterday, it was 89 degrees in here and I was getting faint.

      3. LJay*

        The water thing probably isn’t legal either, unless there was tap water available that she didn’t want to drink.

    2. Media Monkey*

      is it legal anywhere to have a workplace with no water connected? how do you flush the toilets?

      1. Destroyer of Worlds, Empress of Awesome*

        There is water in the bathroom, but the bathroom is a nasty mess. I won’t even sit down on the seat, I just kind of hover over it. And there is no way I’m getting water from the sink back there!!!!! At one point, the sink was white and the fixtures a nice chrome. Now, the sink is gray and the fixtures are pitted, with grease all over. It’s just nasty.

        Of course, I can’t use the toilet today because….there is no toilet paper.

    3. zora*

      Um, in the US I’m not sure it’s legal to have a workplace with no access to potable water of any kind, actually. That is a huge red flag to me. And another flag is the fact that they didn’t tell you that before your first day, that is a pretty big deal to have to bring all of your own water for a full day at work.

      Add those 2 flags to the others, and we’re definitely in Communist Parade territory. This stuff is definitely hinky and I’d be very alert to other weirdness.

      1. zora*

        https://www.osha.gov/laws-regs/regulations/standardnumber/1915/1915.88

        1915.88(b)
        Potable water.
        1915.88(b)(1)
        The employer shall provide potable water for all employee health and personal needs and ensure that only potable water is used for these purposes.
        1915.88(b)(2)
        The employer shall provide potable drinking water in amounts that are adequate to meet the health and personal needs of each employee.
        1915.88(b)(3)
        The employer shall dispense drinking water from a fountain, a covered container with single-use drinking cups stored in a sanitary receptacle, or single-use bottles. The employer shall prohibit the use of shared drinking cups, dippers, and water bottles.

        1. Destroyer of Worlds, Empress of Awesome*

          Wow, so I just looked at the OSHA stuff you provided. Looks like OSHA doesn’t expect me to drink from a nasty sink in the bathroom so I’ve got that going for me.

          I guess, once I leave here, I’ll be whistleblowing again. Dammit, is there a position somewhere for “Executive Whistleblower” because it seems like that’s all I’m doing any more!!!!!!!!

          1. CmdrShepard4ever*

            So the osha link above is for ship yard employment. Under OSHA rules the employer does have to provide potable water as defined by regulations. Yes that includes tap water as long as the tap water meets the criteria to be considered potable. While the sink might be nasty if the water still meets the definition of potable then they are not breaking OSHA regulations.

            From OSHA FAQ
            “Are employers required to provide drinking water?

            OSHA Standards require an employer to provide potable water in the workplace and permit employees to drink it. Potable water includes tap water that is safe for drinking. Employers cannot require employees to pay for water that is provided. An employer does not have to provide bottled water if potable water is available. See OSHA’s sanitation standard for more information.”

      2. Destroyer of Worlds, Empress of Awesome*

        I just read their Google reviews and found MAJOR weirdness. As in, my boss claims to be the owner but they just did a name change (?) and the new company name is for a business about 100 miles away from here, owned by someone who acts as a subcontractor for us. Good lord, can I please get an employment break???? Just one…..?

        1. zora*

          It definitely seems like your superpower is “finding the weirdest violators of federal law!!” That’s… kinda cool.. right??? ;)

          1. Destroyer of Worlds, Empress of Awesome*

            At least I’ve got that going for me! It was said, in one of the open threads way back when I could talk about my case, that I should become a consultant for companies to tell them how they are violating laws. That would be such a dream job!!!!!

    4. Jaid*

      Heyyyy! Glad to see you back!

      Girl, you don’t need the stress of this guy. Look for another job.

      1. Destroyer of Worlds, Empress of Awesome*

        Hi Jaid!

        I’m always around, I just don’t comment a lot. If I wrote down some of the comments I want to leave, I’m afraid Alison would ban me!!!!!!!!!

        Fortunately, I’m still getting responses from the batch of resumes I sent out when I applied for this job and I’ve only been here since Tuesday so the pipeline is still relatively full and it’s going to get a lot fuller this weekend!

        1. ..Kat..*

          I’m sorry that you are in this position. Hopefully, now that you have a key, you can come and go as you need for job interviews.

      1. Destroyer of Worlds, Empress of Awesome*

        My Reeboks are on! As I said to Jaid, above, fortunately I am still getting responses from when I sent out my resume and got this job so the pipeline is still responding and I’m going to load it up this weekend.

        Kind of bums me out….this job is about 2 miles from home. I could walk here if I had to. It’s Floriduh, so I’m glad I don’t have to.

        1. valentine*

          I know you’ve been through a massive series of wringers and deserve a long rest. The good news is you can leave before this snowballs. The bad news is you need to leave. In the meantime, take your breaks. If you’d be okay to be fired for it, tell him the bathroom’s unacceptable and you’ll be going to a nearby business or home for that. You should be able to have comfort breaks as needed, but if you prefer, would it help you to work two to three hours, then go home for water/food/bathroom, rinse, and repeat? If there’s a men’s room, check it out. Maybe it’s cleaner? Did he let you in, then leave? If it happens again, warn your boss you’re leaving the place unlocked to go on a water/food/bathroom run. Prioritize your health, even if that means not reporting him. I am usually pro-reporting, but you have suffered intolerably for it. I hope your house issue turned out ok.

          1. Destroyer of Worlds, Empress of Awesome*

            We’ve only got one bathroom, which explains why it is SO nasty….I’m sharing it with construction workers and I’m the only woman! Yes, he meets me here and lets me in and then leaves. When I leave for the day, I was just turning the doorknob lock, not the deadbolt. Fortunately, I have a key now.

            I’ve made a friend with the girls who manages the office for the a/c company two doors down (she brings her dogs to work–Sasha and Bentley–so we’ve bonded over me getting puppy kisses) and she has told me to go to them and I can use their bathroom and they have a water dispenser. She’s really nice.

            At this point, I’m looking for another job and will NEVER report *while* I am working for a company ever again. But I *will* report.

    6. CatCat*

      Glad to see an update from you! I’d just see this as a means to pay the bills. You don’t need to go above and beyond here for a shady boss. I’d travel the path of least resistance until you come across a better opportunity.

      1. zora*

        Yep, I’d like to second this emotion: “I’d travel the path of least resistance until you come across a better opportunity.”

        Put the bare minimum of energy into this place, and focus everything you can on following up those other options and find something a little less fraudulent and illegal! Good luck!

        1. Destroyer of Worlds, Empress of Awesome*

          Here in Floriduh, it seems like every small business I come across has some kind of fraud/illegal activities going on. My mom is convinced I have some weird magnet in my body that draws me to them. I’m adopted though, so…….I guess anything’s possible. LOL….

          At this point, it is a means to an end: gotta pay the bills. So I’m just hanging in, doing my job…what there is of it, and collecting my paycheck. Got my first one today!

  72. Family Office anyone?*

    Just wondering if anyone else has worked in a family office before? (not, as my initial assumption was, a family business, but rather a private wealth management type firm). I’ve been at one for 6 years, and love it, but had never even heard of such a thing before this. I’m an accountant and my job mainly involves investment accounting. These types of offices seem to be fairly rare, and also private so its hard to know what’s normal so just curious what others have experienced. How many employees did your office have? What sort of similar jobs have you had that were not at a family office? I dont have plans to leave here anytime remotely soon, but thinking to the future I dont know what type of job would make sense to look for after this.

  73. FuzzFrogs*

    We’re down about a quarter of our people, almost all of them in key upper positions, and I think my branch is finally just outright going insane. Even with borrowing senior people from other locations. One of our few senior people left had a full-on meltdown at me because I asked her to do something, and then asked me to fix it (I’m not remotely in a position to fix it.) My supervisor actively despises the coworker who’s home sick because CHEMO and keeps trying to find evidence that she’s actually just lazy when she’s calling in sick. My supervisor micromanaged sidewalk chalk placement this week. My supervisor wants me to promote into her position (she’s taking over one of the other senior roles) but keeps pointing out all the parts of the job that give her anxiety attacks, laughing, and saying “you sure you want this?”

    This all besides the *counts on fingers* eight mishaps I’ve had in my attempts to promote up.

    At what point do I get to call my job the Mini-Hellmouth? Cause at this point it feels like it…

          1. Karen from Finance*

            I’m pretty sure she’s a “she” due to some weird sexist crap that’s come up in some of the accounts (and the boss doesn’t pick on men), plus the profile pic.

  74. Anonymous Educator*

    So I put in my notice, and there hasn’t been any big announcement, but co-workers have heard through the grapevine that I’m leaving, and many of them have stopped by the office to say how sad they are I’m leaving, but some give it a bit of a guilt angle (half-jokingly) of “How could you leave us?” or “What are we going to do?” and I’m not really down with that; my boss isn’t either (rightly so). Honestly, the place will go on without me, and any workplace that is functioning properly shouldn’t collapse just because one person leaves. So I kind of wish people would spend a little less time on the “sad to see you go” (happens too much) and a bit more on the well wishing (happens but not enough), or even just say they appreciated the work I did (without even hinting at a “What are we going to do?”).

    1. fposte*

      Obviously it depends on the tone and the people, but I think for a lot of communicators “We’ll be doomed without you!” is how they phrase “We found you valuable and will miss you.”

      1. Anonymous Educator*

        Yeah, it just makes the conversation a bit awkward. And, seriously, at one point my boss took visible offense and said essentially “What am I—chopped liver?!” (I’m paraphrasing).

    2. LadyByTheLake*

      That is just a way of them saying that you were valued and will be missed. That’s all they mean by that.

      1. Anonymous Educator*

        Oh, I know the intentions are good. Nobody’s actually trying to be mean here. It just doesn’t end up being super productive, and sometimes it ends up being a bit awkward.

        1. Not A Morning Person*

          Maybe if you just think of it as a compliment and a “we’ll miss you!” you can say “thanks! I’ll miss you, too!” and let it go at that. Rinse and repeat. If your manager gets insulted, just say the same kind of thing, lightly, “Oh, they’re just saying I’ll be missed, even though I know you’ll manage well when I’m gone.”

          1. Anonymous Educator*

            I mean, it’s all in good fun, and even my manager was just half-joking about it (not seriously upset), but there are tiny bits of truth in there that are annoying or awkward.

            I’m also not deeply upset by it, and I do react with a “Thanks! I’ll miss you, too” or something similar. I just think people should think about what they say and how they could say it better.

            So a deal.

            Not a big deal.

            But a deal.

            It’s okay for a small deal to still be a deal.

            Nobody’s crying or dying or anything.

  75. Karen from Finance*

    Hi and welcome to tech startup hell!

    I posted here 2 weeks ago with a list of some of the things that make this place a madhouse. Since then I’ve posted some random comments here and there regarding my job search. So a few updates for the few people who’ve been following – I don’t mean to make this a recurring/weekly thing but this week in particular has been crazy so just going over it would be helpful.

    I literally got into a heated argument with HR an the CIO (one of the owners) because they say National Holidays constitute “business days”. They referred to this discussion as “a difference of opinion”. So far, apparently, they’ve been tracking them because they “want to know how much money they lost to National Holidays” (we’re talking state-sanctioned National Holidays). I wasaccused of arguing semantics for pointing out that it’s important that words mean things and facts are important. After the meeting ended, I apologized to the CIO for losing my temper at one point in the meeting (and I did say something that was inappropiate and was called out), and he said “you didn’t get angry, you got passionate, and I’m glad because it means you care”. He was very satisfied, too. I can’t with this place.
    (The good thing is that I eventually did win the argument, but why does everything have to be so exhausting?).

    I found out that managers have no idea if what their teams are charging on their timesheets is correct or not, they just trust them. Not only do they not verify, they apparently have “no way” of doing so, because knowing and tracking what is going on in their own teams is too much a hassle. When I suggested maybe they should track what their own teams are doing with some method other than the timesheets (that are charged not biweekly but monthly, that’s how it works here), they were flabbergasted.

    I’ve come to realize facts don’t matter here, everything is a matter of the opinion of whoever is higher up on the pyramid.

    But also I’m in a huge “I don’t even care anymore” state of mind which is enabling me to cut through a lot of people’s crap and I’m actually getting things done. I’m seeing progress in things that have been stuck for months. I’m actually developing processes. And there are some long-term projects that I never thought would happen that are starting to see movement. This is giving me a lot of anxiety and guilt.

    Job search news: I was just stood up for a phone call by a recruiter. The recruiter had requested an interview without disclosing anything other than the job title and the industry (auto), I’d asked for the call but he’d set the time. I’m annoyed. Now I’m expecting another call 2 hours from now from the job that I had been mentioning here, that had some red flags and had been made me some tests (a cognitive one and an Excel one). They suggested they might want to extend a job offer, in which case I’ll ask them for the weekend to think it through because I’m not 100% convinced it won’t be as insane as it’s here (almost certain the CEO is quite intense, HR is suspect, and longer commute; BUT, people aren’t technollogically illiterate, and it’s a lot more money).

    So even though I really want to leave this place, it will take some more time. I need to be smart about it because I’ll need to stay a couple years in my next job, for my resume. Please send sanity my way, I need it.

    1. The Man, Becky Lynch*

      Oh good, you did update! I was wondering about the job with the cognitive testing. You’d be surprised by what a lot more money will do to make your patience for shenanigans expand, at least in my case!

      The National Holiday debate is giving me hives.

      Give zero ef’s, get more sh*t done, seriously it’s science!

      1. Karen from Finance*

        The job with the cognitive testing: HR messaged me, said I did very well on the tests, requested a 20-min phone interview to talk about some “open items” from the interview (I have no idea what he can mean, but I’m curious), and mentioned the possibility of discussing a job offer at the end of the call. I gave them a time they could call, they saw the message, didn’t respond, and it’s now been 45 minutes since that timeslot.

        I’m weirded out by being stood up twice for phone calls in one day.

    2. Karen from Finance*

      I’m sorry to use this as a place to shout into the void but…

      HR just sent an email saying they need to update their records (wonder where they got that idea..) and could we please go into that public Google Sheets and fill out our qualifications? (Major/Institution/Title/etc). Besides the privacy breach, people have been trolling each other on it for the past several minutes.

      But of course, the National Holidays are the productivity losses.

      I’m going to die in here.

      1. The Man, Becky Lynch*

        Because you couldn’t just email them individually and they could do their GD job and update their INTERNAL LOCKED DOCUMENT themselves…glorious glorious failures.

  76. Faith*

    I am currently 5 weeks into my maternity leave (expect to be out for 12 weeks total), and my department is in a bit of a turmoil right now. Processes are changing, people are leaving, new professional guidance is being issued that’s hundreds of pages long and it’s critical for me to be familiar with it. I’m starting to wonder how to stay on top of everything. I’m not allowed to “work” for the next 4 weeks because I’m technically on short term disability and working is against company policy and would be considered insurance fraud. So, my email is disconnected by IT. That doesn’t prevent me from reading the guidance documents, but my baby still hasn’t figured out how to sleep longer than 2 consecutive hours without waking up for a snack. So, I am essentially a walking zombie with a brain functioning at the speed of a sloth. Do I just ignore all the work stuff and concentrate on getting enough sleep for the rest of my maternity leave and then try to catch up on everything at once when I’m back to work? Or do I attempt to keep up with at least some of this stuff while I’m still out? Also, any tips on staying awake while reading boring technical documentation?

    1. downtown funk*

      Do I just ignore all the work stuff and concentrate on getting enough sleep for the rest of my maternity leave and then try to catch up on everything at once when I’m back to work?

      Yeah, honestly. Also, if your e-mail’s been disabled so you don’t work, how are you getting these guidance documents? Are people sending them to your personal e-mail even though you’re out and not allowed to be working?

      1. Karen from Finance*

        Yep. Focus on yourself, and your baby, please. You’re on leave so you can get the rest you need, and that means mental as well as physical. The work will still be there when you come back.

        1. valentine*

          You are working. Stop working.

          The guidance is issued by the government. Since I still read the news, I know it’s out.
          Stop reading the news, if that’s what it takes to stop you finding loopholes. Work will always be there and not being able to do it properly now means redoing it later, which is a large waste of your time, in addition to the insurance fraud. Enjoy this time; you’ll not get it back.

      2. Faith*

        The guidance is issued by the government. Since I still read the news, I know it’s out.

        1. CmdrShepard4ever*

          If it is government guidance, I think you can CHOOSE/WANT to read it if you want, and it is not necessarily “work” but more like professional development. I think it is similar to if you attended a class that would enhance your skills, or went to a professional conference. But as others have I would focus on the baby and trying to take care of yourself.

        2. Jerry Vandesic*

          You are allowed to do general professional development while you are on leave. If that’s how you want to spend some of your time, it wouldn’t be a problem. But if you have better things to do, you might want to wait until you return before diving into the new regulations.

    2. Utoh!*

      Yup, work will always be there (in some form or another) so it’s now your JOB to take care of yourself and baby. You will never get this time back and work is never worth what you will lose mentally, emotionally, and yes, physically. Congrats on the new baby!

    3. Mr. Tyzik*

      Forget work. Work is repeatable, childhood is not. Enjoy the baby. Find something else to occupy you.

      Don’t think that you have to keep on top of everything. Just, enjoy the baby.

  77. Preschool Teacher*

    I just scheduled an interview for an assistant director position at a preschool! I’ve been a preschool teacher for six years now, but I’m overqualified for the role and excited to move up in the field. Anyone have any interview tips, specifically for moving into an office-type role when you’ve previously been working in classrooms? I’m very familiar with state standards and protocols due to my years in the classroom, but I’d love to know other strategies for letting them know I’m up to this change!

  78. VAP*

    So my department is dysfunctional enough that we’re getting a mediator in. She’s had private phone conversations with everyone in the department, and is now planning a one-day retreat for us to try to resolve things as a department. I have no idea what to expect during this retreat. I’m new here and my position is relatively tenuous, so mostly I’ve been trying to stay out of things, even though I definitely have some opinions about what’s been happening. I’m curious if anyone has ever done a similar kind of conflict resolution process? Any ideas about what kinds of things we might be doing during this mediation-retreat thing? Any advice on getting through it? My current plan is just to not talk very much.

    1. downtown funk*

      I haven’t done mediation but I’ve done process improvement, which is fixing processes not people ;) BUT I wonder how empowered people are to make changes, how much buy-in there is from leadership, all that sort of thing. If you don’t have any of that, just try to enjoy the retreat, if you like retreats, and don’t expect too much to come out of it?

      1. VAP*

        Arg, it’s complicated, because we’re in academia (which I know isn’t the main focus of people on this site, but the mediator does a lot of work with corporate clients, so I think her approaches may be familiar to people in normal jobs). So we have a really nebulous set of connections and people who do have more power than others, but not much by way of a formal management structure. The university administration is invested in this, they’re the ones who arranged it, but they have pretty limited roles in the day-to-day of the department. What we can actually do as a department is change how we interact with each other, how we handle departmental business and meetings, etc. Many of the senior faculty think that everything is fine and all of this is a waste (this. . . is one of the reasons we’re having issues), so it’s hard to know if there’ll be any momentum from them to make real changes.

        1. downtown funk*

          Ah, yeah. If people don’t think there’s a problem, they’re not usually too interested in fixing it.

    2. Not All*

      I’ve done it twice (and have learned oh-so-the-hard-way) to ask very probing questions about turnover in any office I’m applying at!

      The ones I did were more “facilitated team-building” than technical mediation but I would call both flat disasters. Relationships that had been professionally civil even if not friendly blew up into open hostility, many tears, much shouting, much ripping open scabs that had been healing fine, etc. I’d recommend going and keeping your mouth absolutely shut other than generic, more-or-less positive comments. But most of the problems in those offices came from managers who set employees at each other, so hopefully your experience will be better!

      1. VAP*

        This is a bit what I’m worried about. In theory I’d like to engage in the process in good faith, give my perspective about issues so that we can work on them, etc–but I suspect that that’s really not a good idea. It’s so frustrating, though–if all of the junior folks who are having difficulties with bullying/apathy from senior folks can’t actually discuss it when we’re supposed to be able to, it’s never going to change. But not worth sacrificing my own currently-good relationships for.

  79. Ace in the Hole*

    How do you handle an interview when you know you’re massively under qualified?

    I recently applied for a job with my county government that is a huge stretch for me. Basically this opening is for a “Senior teapot specialist” where I think I’m only qualified as an entry level teapot specialist. I applied anyway because it’s a great opportunity… and they called me in for an interview! Yay!

    My concern is coming across as way overconfident and out of touch. On the other hand I don’t want to shoot my self in the foot by saying I’m not qualified. I want to make a good impression… especially since I will definitely applying to the same department in the future.

    1. PB*

      If they thought you were overconfident and out of touch, they wouldn’t have called your for an interview. I think the best way to proceed is to be confident in your skills and knowledge, but also be honest about your qualifications. If they ask about something you don’t know about or haven’t done, let them know that. You can talk about similar things you’ve done, or training you have completed, but they’ll want to know exactly where you stand. In the worst case, this might cost you the job, which would be better than getting it and finding yourself in over your head. In the best case, they’ll offer you the job and make sure you have training opportunities where you need them.

      1. Ace in the Hole*

        Thanks, that makes sense. And also is the way I’d approach any interview, so I’m probably just overthinking things!

    2. Karen from Finance*

      I think you want to hit the sweet spot between overconfidence and saying you’re underqualified, as you mention. That sweet spot, I think, goes along the line of “I’m interested in this role because I think it would be a good challenge for me. I do have experience with some of these tasks as a teapot specialists, and taking on a senior role would allow me to continue to grow my carreer in this direction by expanding my skills of handle design, pout perfecting, and …”.

    3. The Man, Becky Lynch*

      It’s a government position, they rarely interview for the warm fuzzies and you have to meet their requirements to get an interview! I think you’re underestimating your qualifications, which is okay, it’s good to be conservative with that kind of thing in the job hunt. Just be yourself, be truthful and listen throughout the interview, you may find out that the job listing sounds so much more complicated than it really is.

      1. Ace in the Hole*

        Thanks, you’re totally right. And they already extended the application deadline, so I know they’re not swimming in applications.

  80. SinSA*

    Looking for a new job (and a small step up in my career). Frustrated beyond words. Passed over for an internal promotion, because my current boss doesn’t want to lose me -even though he never once talked to me about it, because if he had, I would assured him I would still support all of his client-related work in the new position. I had a hybrid role in this office with my previous Office Administrator and I was told that I would be getting a bit more responsibility but so far, despite my asking and offers of service, no one is saying a freaking word.

    I’m starting to question whether I should just settle and be “stuck” in this role? I don’t want to stay in admin forever — looking at more supervisory/training, or HR (recruiting, training, employee engagement/development) — those are things I really, really love and I have experience doing, and I’m told I’m really GOOD at those things – it’s just a matter of a new employer taking a chance on me, I guess? Constant rejection is really demoralizing. Any advice?

    1. EmmaBird*

      So I left my last job for reasons that sound extremely similar to yours. I had aspirations to move up, my boss DID NOT want to lose me under any circumstance. It was so extreme that we were hiring a senior designer role in my team– she’d still be my boss– and she flat out told me not to apply because she wouldn’t consider me. My annual reviews and daily feedback were a bizarre mix of “you’re doing everything perfectly! You’re messing everything up!” It really messed with my self-esteem to get mixed messages like that all the time. Meanwhile, like you said, people were telling me that I was very talented, that I was capable of doing much more. I started job searching and sure enough, I’m now working less and making much more than I was before.

      So if you ask me, listen to those people that are telling you that you’re capable because they’re probably right and it is probably just a matter of time. If you can, leverage the people who have told you that you’d be a good fit in those roles and see if they can network for you! Having someone vouch for you can be really helpful for making that leap.

      1. SinSA*

        That gives me some hope! How long did it take you to find your new role? I’ve applied for positions on my own as well as through various recruiters and I have only gotten one phone interview (out of state). Or, they’re offering me laughingly low salaries for positions elsewhere.

        My annual reviews are always really, really great. (thankfully)

        1. valentine*

          Tell your manager the polite version of he screwed you over, job-search, and leave.

    2. The Man, Becky Lynch*

      Don’t let this place hold you back, they’re cutting off their nose to spite their face by demanding you stay in an admin role while you are hoping to move up.

      Other companies will jump at the idea of having you climb their ladder, you are not stuck!

      You have to learn to roll with the punches with rejection. It stinks. Feel it. Ice the bruise and then get back in there and fight for yourself some more. Someone will take the chance.

    3. WalkedInYourShoes*

      Don’t give up! Keep applying and you will end up in a better role. One of my co-workers is going through something similar. I have been encouraging my co-worker to apply. If no-one appreciates the value this employee brings especially the Big Boss, it’s time to look where you are appreciated.

  81. EmmaBird*

    Has anyone else negotiated long-term remote work arrangements with an employer?

    Bit of background on myself— I’m a mid-level designer, single and no family, working in higher ed. I love the college town I live in and plan to buy here eventually but I also love travel.

    Just started a new job 6 months ago and so far I’m finding that the work culture here is much more flexible than anything I’ve ever experienced. My fellow designers seem to have a lot of flexibility to work remotely, one even has a standing arrangement to work from home for half the week— every week. It seems like you can just write our boss an email saying you’re working from home that day the morning of and it’s okay so long as you’re not skipping out on something important in-office.

    And while I love where I live— I hate it in the winter and recently joked with a friend I’d like to do what retirees do and go south for the winter. And then I realized… maybe I CAN do that now. Not for the whole winter, but maybe for 3-4 weeks during the worst parts to lift my spirits. Now I don’t plan to go to my boss tomorrow and ask if I can work remotely for a month next winter— that seems like a recipe for disaster since I’m so new. But I am wondering if other people have arranged similar things and what their strategy was!

    1. valentine*

      There will be rules about distance and you probably can’t leave the state because your location’s laws would apply. Also, they might view it as vacation, unless you have a medical need.

  82. Lucy*

    Alison has lots of good scripts for chivvying subordinates and suppliers for information or work product. I feel confident with this dynamic.

    What I’m struggling with is when I need something from someone in a superior position, either in-house or a client. I deal mainly with director-level contacts and often need them to provide decisions or information within firm deadlines. I’m using a mixture of bold-underlining dates and key points but the power imbalance bit means it’s all couched in formal or ingratiating language – “Given the very close deadline for I should be grateful if you could provide the data as soon as possible” etc. And then total radio silence.

    How do you get stern with people above you?

    2. The Man, Becky Lynch*

      Don’t fear those who are in superior positions. Treat them like humans and treat them with the same respect you treat everyone else you work with and you should be just fine. If you need something from them, you don’t need to crawl to them begging and pleading in the softest voice possible with all the “Please sir, we need this by the deadline, sir.”

      Just say “Our deadline for this is April 15th, please send the appropriate reports by this time to avoid delays and penalties.”

      You can also always include a line that says “if there is someone else to contact regarding this data, please let me know and I’ll happily contact them instead.” because a lot of times you have the president’s contact information on the client’s paperwork but you really are dealing with some one in their chain of command.

      I work with executives. Their farts are stinky too, I promise. Just always stay courteous and understanding of their time, which is why asking for another contact is helpful.

      1. Lucy*

        Thank you.

        It’s more when it starts getting urgent and they don’t reply (and there’s nobody else).

        I did once start an email with “at the risk of being a nagging old bag” which elicited an almost immediate response and improvement in our working relationship, but (1) it didn’t feel at all professional and (2) client reverted to type immediately afterwards.

        You’re right though that as I can’t use seniority threats, I’ll need to lean on threats of financial penalties (imposed by government bodies) and keep up the Tai Chi…

    3. Lilysparrow*

      If possible, popping by their office with a hard-copy in hand, highlighted and with sticky flags on it for the things they need to review/decide/sign. Don’t leave it with anyone else, keep coming back until you catch them. And then ask them for a verbal commitment of when you should come back to pick it up.

      If going in person doesn’t work, phone calls.

      Be a cheerful, pleasant, unrelenting and escalating annoyance.

      1. Lucy*

        Ha ha I love your last sentence – will try to channel it!

        I should have said that I work remotely so the doorstepping isn’t possible. Increasing phone calls is a good idea though, thanks!

  83. plant lady*

    Allyson, delete or don’t post if you don’t support – I just thought this would be fun and interesting to try!

    I made a (fully anonymous) Google form with questions about your job and work experience (things like how long your commute is or how many PTO days you get a year.) If you’d like, fill it out, and then I’ll share the responses tomorrow or in next Friday’s Open Thread!

    https://forms.gle/affWQMiQUwf37obr8

    1. Elizabeth Proctor*

      Share the results next Friday! People in a prior open thread say they don’t really check here after Friday. Or share it both times :)

      1. plant lady*

        Done, I’ll share next Friday! 31 people have filled it out so far. It’s very interesting to see. : )

  84. Gonna be a bad rest of the month*

    My coworker who is also responsible for front desk coverage is leaving in the beginning of May. She has decided that since she has plenty of PTO that she is going to take most days off or half days, leaving me with most or all of the front desk coverage. Monday through Thursday we have a couple part time interns who can help when they’re not doing tasks for other staff, but aren’t able to cover the desk alone. On Fridays, we have no interns who do front desk coverage, so if my counter part is out, I can’t complete other tasks that are part of my job description, go to the bathroom, or anything else away from the desk without asking another coworker to help cover for me. This system is unsustainable, right? How do I go about asking my boss to curtail these absences or at the very least eliminate them on Fridays so I’m not chained to my desk? Please help – I’m looking head to a miserable and frustrating April.

    1. downtown funk*

      Your coworker’s not the one leaving you in this position, your boss is. Talk to your boss about getting other coverage. Can your boss do some of it as well? What happens if you’re out sick? There needs to be a plan.

      1. valentine*

        Tell him how much you can do and the support you need. If he says no, even to peeing, go anyway and stick to your plan.

    2. stuckadmin*

      at my place of employment front desk receptionists are scheduled breaks and lunches. The rest of the company’s admins help with this and rotate. Can something like this be implemented?

    3. Peaches*

      I mean…even front desk people are allowed to use their time off. It kind of sounds like you’re wanting to tell your boss that she shouldn’t be allowed to use her earned PTO. It sounds like it’s the nature of her job to always be covering the front desk, so there would never be a “good time” for her to take vacation. With that being said, company should have a system in place so that you’re not having to abandon your other duties to cover for her. Also, is your counterpart the same coworker who is taking all the days off, or is this a different person? If it’s a different person, will it really be that many Fridays where your counterpart is out and you have to cover all day, or can you split time? Are you able to work on any of your regular tasks while filling in at the front desk, or is the position always super busy?

    4. Lucy*

      Assuming they are replacing her full time ASAP I think it would be reasonable for you to suggest strongly to management that the interns prioritise front desk work over other tasks.

      It’s common for people to want to take accrued PTO during their leave periods; it’s just as common for the employer to refuse, and insist on paying/applying it after the agreed last day. What applies in your case will be employer- and location-specific.

      But I think it’s unlikely you have the seniority to make demands either way so it’s probably best to raise to your co-worker and/or boss as a general concern (Susan wants to do this but I think it will have this undesired side effect) and let them work it out.

    5. Ihmmy*

      I work in a place that we are supposed to have always available, but we’re allowed to put up a “Back in 5” sign when there’s only one person here and they need to use the washroom, go get printing, unlock rooms etc.

    6. BRR*

      I think you should go to your boss and just ask “Jane is planning to take a lot of days off between now and her last day. This is going to make it difficult for me to do X, Y, and Z due to coverage of the front desk.” If you can propose something do that or ask to set up a game plan. Maybe ask to hire a temp?

  85. WellRed*

    I’m irritated just reading about her. I also don’t think she sounds like a nice person. She’s an internet troll who drinks too much (I drink, but don’t “pull crap”), is inconsiderate of others and is passive aggressive.

  86. stuckadmin*

    For context I am a female in her mid-30’s. I have been stuck in entry level positions since I graduated college. I graduated when the economy was terrible. I started out thinking I wanted to do sales, and realized it was not for me. I got laid off from a sales job. Picked up entry level AP/AR work and did that for 3 years and was laid off. Then transferred into a more admin roll. I have been with several companies. Some due to lay offs, some due to me wanting to leave. I like admin work and I am good at it. My problem is I have never made over $40k a year or held any management responsibilities. I want to move up but I feel stuck. How do I start taking on more responsibility so I can potentially start making more money and get into some more senior level roles.

    1. Onyx*

      Internally, I’d start networking with colleagues and let it be known that you’re looking to grow. Volunteer to help them if they need any assistance on their projects. I had our company receptionist help me with data entry for some marketing projects and she was so fast and accurate, I recommended her to our recruiting team when an entry-level position came up on their team. Alternatively, you could identify something that your company needs that you could provide and propose a side project to your manager.

      You probably will need to think of your transferrable skills when positioning yourself for more senior level roles outside of your current company. What came to mind immediately was transitioning to an executive assistant role which tends to pay more or maybe even HR (I’ve known multiple people who have transitioned from admin roles to HR career path). Operations could be a good fit as well.

  87. olusatrum*

    I’m brand new (today is the end of my 2nd week) at a small company. So far, I’m really loving how casual everyone is, but one thing’s bugging me. They keep a TV on at a low volume all day, which isn’t my preference but I can deal. The issue is that they keep it on Cops or Live PD all day every day. It’s pretty stressful to see blood and violence on a big screen in front of me all day. Sometimes it’s on the news, and I don’t love that either, but at least it’s a little better than Cops. Everyone else in the room has been vocally in favor of Cops. Anything I can do here, or do I just have to put in headphones and try not to look?

    1. EmmaBird*

      This is a question I would *REALLY* like to see Alison answer. It seems ridiculous that everyone is okay with that kind of programming on ALL DAY.

      Is there anything about this company that you can leverage to your side? Is the office public-facing where you wouldn’t want to risk clients or small children seeing violence? Do you work for a nonprofit or government office where that would reflect poorly on more than just the staff?

      I also think it would be extremely reasonable to present this as a noise issue and ask that the volume is turned off completely and closed captioning turned on for anyone that wants to take a break to watch. I’m assuming that you’re at least able to face away from it. I’m struggling to understand how this isn’t a huge distraction for everyone!

      1. olusatrum*

        We’re not public-facing or nonprofit/govt or similar, so unfortunately that won’t work. There was a day when Viceland was on, and there were a few passing shots of the insides of strip clubs. The guy who controls the TV decided that wasn’t appropriate for work…. and switched it to Cops. It’s just tough because there’s only ~10 people in the room and I’ve actually heard everyone but me be vocally in favor of Cops and Live PD. I can’t face away, which is a bummer. The TV’s really quiet and due to the nature of the work, it’s actually the lowest noise distraction in the room at any given time. I think if I tried the noise distraction argument, it would come off kind of silly. Especially since the other noise distractions are not a problem at all for me, I’m just stressed out seeing cops and the news on all the time!

        So far, my strategy has been sort of mildly saying “Wow, this is stressful to watch,” every once in a while, or when the TV comes up in conversation. It’s not really working, but I’m hesitant to push harder because I’m new. Maybe I’ll start suggesting HGTV?

        1. valentine*

          It’s okay to say you can’t stomach it and suggest literally anything else or standards, which should be met before anyone even changes the station, so you don’t have to watch NSFW content and so one dude isn’t making that call for everyone.

  88. Negotiating the Big Bureaucracy*

    TL;DR: How much can you actually negotiate in public sector?

    So I’m currently with a public agency in a limited duration position that’s ending soon. I’ll have some opportunities to stay with the org, but to broaden my options I’ve been looking elsewhere as well. I had an interview with another very similar agency (think state vs. county) that has similar structure and work, but I’m trying to figure out what my options would be if I were offered the job.

    Typically we have really rigid pay scales and steps – when I started at CurrentPublicAgency I negotiated to start at ScaleX-Step2, but that’s uncommon – most new hires start at Step 1 by default. Since I’ve been at CurrentPublicAgency for a few years, if I stay I’d be at least at ScaleX-Step 5. The job I interviewed for at OtherPublicAgency is slightly different but is very similar to ScaleX in pay. If I was offered the job, is there any way I could make the case to start at the equivalent of Step 5 or 6? Because the orgs are so similar and trade employees back and forth so often, I don’t know if its unreasonable to think I might be able to count on keeping my seniority.

    Also, and this might be more of a stretch, what about other seniority perks like vacation accrual? I’m not sure I’d take the position if I was starting back at base vacation, but I’m also not sure there is any allowance for negotiating on that.

    Any fellow public sector workers? What are the limits of negotiation in this area? I’m comfortable turning down the job if I can’t get comparable terms, but I just want to know what would even be reasonable to ask for. Thank you!

    1. Not All*

      By “public sector” do you mean federal?

      If you are a GS-11-step 5 now, apply for a GS-11 position at another agency, you will automatically come over as a GS-11-step 5. Annual leave accrual is based on total federal service as well. So if your Service Comp Date is 4-5-2014 with one federal agency, it will stay the same with the next.

      If you are a GS-11-step 5 and making a series change into a GS-9/11 position and HR ranks you as only qualified at the GS-9 level, then they can’t give you the GS-11 pay. Instead they will usually try to grant you some pay protection and bring you in at the GS-9-step 12 but you’ll lose all the time you took getting those steps in your 11 & have to start over as GS-11-step-1 when you get bumped to the GS-11 one year out. It’s not usually a huge deal if you’re say a step 3 because those steps come one a year, but when you’re in the higher steps it can be a major financial hit because it’s 3 yrs between steps.

      1. Negotiating the Big Bureaucracy*

        Not federal, local government agencies – State, City, and County. So they have similar payscales but I don’t think they’re exactly standardized the same way you’re describing with different agencies under the same federal umbrella.

        That is helpful though – I wonder if I could make a case based on what a comparable Fed transition would be?

    2. LQ*

      I’m a state employee so your state may vary…but if you were moving from one state agency to another you’d be able to keep your step (and may be able to negotiate for a step increase). If you move between different branches of government it’s a little trickier but you still generally would keep your same(ish) scale/step and vacation. My state also allows for something that’s like vacation negotiation, you prove that you had previous vacation at a previous place of employment and you can use those years to increase your vacation seniority essentially. (It’s a PAIN to go through depending on if your boss is willing to harangue HR about it or not.) I’d definitely go in assuming they can meet/transfer your pay/vacation. If you are in a union you should be able to talk to someone about it as well.

  89. Raia*

    I GOT MY PROMOTION!!!!! Just needed someone to hear it. I’ve been preparing, hoping, and praying for this and am so glad I landed the promotion I wanted most! Good luck to you all who are looking right now!

  90. Confused anon*

    New boss gave me a project to do- we have a new database and she gave me a project to complete. Apparently I didn’t do it “fast enough” and she could have done it all in an hour (She has X years of experience with the software, while it is brand new to me.) She didn’t tell me when it had to be done! She also said something else wasn’t being done, even though 4 other people are involved. Then she praised my incompetent coworker “Jane” who does nothing. “Oh, Jane is more receptive to feedback.” Um, okay. Thanks?

    New job search underway, right?

    1. valentine*

      No? Have you brought up these issues?

      Boss: Too slow!
      You: I wasn’t aware today was the deadline. (Especially if you asked when assigned and she blew you off.)

      Boss: I can’t believe everyone is twiddling their thumbs instead of starting/You haven’t bothered to start x.
      You: Gearhart, Stonemason, Stevedore, and Chantilly have it up and running. I planned to join them when I finished y.

      But if this is just the tip of the iceberg (like her praising that person is suspect), then maybe?

      1. Confused anon*

        I told her that I wasn’t aware of a deadline. For the emails, she said she changed it to just me responding to them. Again, I wasnt aware. I told her all of this and she either didn’t respond or talked over me. At one point, when I said I thought Grandboss was checking something, she laughed in my face.

  92. MapleLeaf*

    I’m moving in to my first managerial role, overseeing about a dozen people. I’m very much looking forward to the work, but am a bit daunted. I just purchased Alison’s first book but am hoping some folks might recommend some other good resources on managing people (especially if it pertains to a unionized environment!)? Thank you!

  93. D.W.*

    Thank you to everyone who offered ideas about facilitating a more inclusive office cook-off. It went really well, and everyone was pleased with the categories and the dishes that were brought and I enjoyed planning it! We had a varied and complementary mix of dishes and literally everything tasted great. I already have people asking if we can do this more than once a year.

    Also, my office threw the most wonderful baby shower for me last Friday and I cried my eyes out. It is really nice to have so much support.

  94. not really a lurker anymore*

    Anyone heard from Hellmouth lately? There’s a news report of a shooting in a property management company with 4 dead recently. Please check in.

    1. TooTiredToThink*

      The shooting in North Dakota? Wouldn’t be IWOAH(She gave hints in the past – she’s in the South in the boot shaped state). She did respond last week; and its still about an hour early from when she normally posts.

      2. not really a lurker anymore*

        I have no idea where she’s located. Thank you for the reassurance!

  95. Incantanto*

    Whats the best way to start mentioning a new partner at work?

    I’m in what looks to become a proper relstionship for the first time.in my working career, most of of my coworkers are older and married. How do you start bringing up the guy when you talk about weekend plans? When do you normally mention it?

    1. NotActuallySamsung*

      “What’re you up to this weekend?”
      “Me and my partner are going to a movie!”
      “Oh I didn’t know you had a partner! Fun!” It might end there but if they get intrusively nosy you can just answer the questions you want to be asked instead. For example:
      “What’re you up to this weekend?”
      “Me and my partner are going to a movie!”
      “Oh I didn’t know you had a partner! Where did you meet? When? What’s their shoe size? Mom’s name? Twitter account?”
      “Yeah I do actually! We’re going to see Jordan Peele’s “Us”, do you like horror too?” And just blank the questions you don’t like :)

      1. EmmaBird*

        Lol yeah prepare for the “did you meet on Tinder?” questioning immediately after mentioning a partner. I’m always the perpetually single one in the office and I encounter nosiness more often than not!

  96. Six Months*

    I’ve been in my new role for less than 6 months and am job searching because it’s a bad fit culturally. Horrible fit. But man do I like the job duties!! It’s a bummer, but I just know I cannot stay in this job and have my emotional and mental state suffer like this.

    I know you’re not supposed to list short term stints on a resume, especially since it’s not expected for one to accomplish much. But because this is a fast paced job and I do the work for 2 people (funding is tight) I feel like I’ve gotten a good amount done. I wrote a grant for the first time and we won the grant last month (not saying it was just me, but I was only person working on it besides getting edits from my supervisor. Apparently no one wanted the grant anyways but I got tasked with it.) I’ve also started an initiative/partnership and strategic plan with the governor of our state.

    Can I put this on my resume? How would I word this? It’s probably not much compared to others and I am still early in my career, but I feel like I would rather put something on my resume than a gap from my last position to now. Thank you!

    1. Turtlewings*

      If you have accomplishments to list, I think it would be a better idea to list it than leave it off, depending on the rest of your job history — i.e. as long as this isn’t your third short stay in a row, you know?

      1. OP*

        Well, this is my third short stint! I’m 26 and have been in school until I was 23. I left my first short stint off because it was a NEED MONEY NOW job before my last job that I had for almost two years. So I guess all in all I’ve had two professional post school jobs according to my resume…

        1. The Man, Becky Lynch*

          So your resume right now is 2 jobs and then this is the 3rd job in 3 years?

          You’re still very new in your career so short term jobs are important to list right now from my POV. Once you get a new job and hopefully that’s a great one, you can drop the six months gig from the mix but right now, it’s more important to say you’re working steadily and that you have accomplished something in those six months. Especially since if you’re looking now, you’re going to be in that job for more than six months in the end.

          How long was it between your last job and this job? Take that into consideration as well. If you have another six months blank on your resume and you had been job searching without a job previously, so you have a year gap or more, that’s a big issue as well, so it’s better to be honest and just let them know you had a job that you left early, if that makes sense?

  97. Anon here again*

    My boss wants me to be a project manager for a team of mechanical engineers. *I am NOT an engineer.*
    When boss said that I would be pm, one engineer cleared his throat so loudly to the point where my boss asked if he was getting sick and talked about how people are coming down with illnesses. (It was sort of awesome because he subtly called him out without actually calling him out…)

    I’m still bewildered because I don’t have an issue with anyone and I thought the one guy was pretty decent. I’ve never had a problem with him, so I don’t know what his deal was.

    How do you work with difficult people? How do you not take it personally? I always feel like they hate me and blame myself. I work hard and help others. What gives? How do you fit in with these types?

    1. AnotherAlison*

      Interesting. . .what is your background? I’ve spent almost 20 years working in engineering firms and am a PM. I am a mechanical engineer. It’s pretty unusual for a non-engineer to become a PM in my industry, and it’s even unusual for a non-ME to become a PM in my specific market. We deal with a lot of technical issues, and you need to understand it. Some PM roles are more schedule-and-budget focused and you don’t need to understand the technical parts as much, but in my type of work, that would be a fairly low power/low authority type of PM role, and the project team would be matrixed reporting to a functional department manager with less direct oversight from you.

      When I got into my PM role 5 years ago, my group hired on a batch of folks to be PMs. One was a former drafting department manager and one was an external former salesperson for an equipment supplier. Neither of those two was successful, but of course, there have also been engineers promoted to PMs who weren’t a fit, and screwed stuff up or just didn’t like it. Sooo, I can see where the team is coming from, but I also think they should give you a chance. I’d say try to be open with them. Let them know you know they have concerns about your experience, but the boss put you in the role because they think you can do it. Tell them you want to work with them to make sure our projects are successful, and none of you win if they aren’t. Have regular informal check-ins, but also be really well organized in running the project and with the formal communication. Figure out their styles and do the best you can. Also, lean on your boss to make sure you’re doing a good job in their opinion. It won’t be easy, but the best way to win them over is to make sure the project is a winner.

      1. AnotherAlison*

        (Also, I don’t know if there are gender issues involved, but that is even more of a challenge. I deal with that in my role, even with 20 years experience, a PE license, and a PMP. Not usually with people I work with regularly, but when I have to work with some out-of-my department 5-year male engineer who doesn’t know I’m good at my job. . .)

    2. Darren*

      So you are coming into a difficult role (but not an impossible one) there is no requirement to be able to do engineering for example in order to project manage an engineering project, *but* some engineers will feel quite differently about this and we feel that project management is meant to be on the career path for them as they get more experienced and want to shift to something more hands-off, and so you may (and in your case it looks like you will) get some push back from those people.

      I’ve worked with many project managers those with technical backgrounds, and those with business backgrounds, and on the whole I’ve found the business background ones have added the most value to the projects (I can handle the technical side, and when working with someone that knows they can’t they are always more what can I do to help and picking up the tasks they can handle and smashing them out to keep the project on track).

      Unfortunately the only thing that is going to change this guys opinion is you actually successfully managing projects, be sure to play to your strengths, and work to build the skills you need to manage the project effectively, but don’t be afraid to admit that there are things you can’t do effectively (at least yet) such as setting timelines for tasks, determining all the tasks that need to be done, etc and lean on the technical resources you have to ensure those are fleshed out effectively. You are going to add the most value ensuring that tasks get done, keeping people accountable to the timelines they are setting, running meeting to keep track of progress and get early warning if deadlines are going to slip, and interfacing with the rest of the business keeping them up to date with the project.

    3. CheeryO*

      Unfortunately, I think you’re always going to run into those types, and I promise you it isn’t personal. That guy was obviously rude, but in my experience, it’s practically a national pastime for engineers to trash-talk their non-engineer PMs. I think it comes from guys (I’ve never known a female engineer who was like this, but I’m sure they’re out there) with a chip on their shoulder about being the smartest, most underappreciated person in the room. The way you get past it is just to support your team, allow them to take the lead on technical stuff and to have input where it makes sense, and let your work and the results of the project speak for themselves.

      As to how much of a problem those types will be during the course of the project, it’s impossible to say. There’s a reason for all of the stereotypes – there are some engineers out there who are so ego-driven and stubborn that they will fight every decision tooth-and-nail just for the sake of being right, but I think they’re the minority. I’m sure that wasn’t the last grumble you’ll hear, but hopefully they’ll be able to work with you in a productive way.

    4. The New Wanderer*

      My experience with project managers is that they are not engineers even if the rest of the team is. The project managers of our projects handle the business/admin side (scheduling, budget, resources, procurement) and not technical issues, since that is what the team of engineers does. Personally I’ve always been grateful to have someone take the PM role because I’ve also been in the position of being both PI (team technical lead) and PM for various projects and the PM stuff really eats up time.

      Since that’s not universal, it really depends on whether PMs in your company are usually engineers – if this guy is acting put out, then maybe the PM role has an expectation of helping on the technical side and he’s disappointed that you probably can’t to the extent that an engineer could. Maybe this guy wanted that role and was disappointed to find out he didn’t get it? None of that is on you – your boss assigned this role because the boss thinks it’s the most appropriate use of your skills. If that’s true, then the role does not need to be done by an engineer.

      Working with difficult people: just do your best and show your value to the team. Remember that some people will never be satisfied regardless of what you do and it has nothing to do with you. You can’t “win” but you’re not losing if they refuse to see your value, that’s their loss.

  98. NotActuallySamsung*

    Alight here’s my question. I have a name that is uncommon but not unheard of for women. It’s also known as a luxury brand, but existed as a woman’s name before the brand. Let’s say for now it’s Samsung. My siblings name is similar, for here let’s say its Nokia. The real names are unusual enough to usually draw comments from strangers.

    I love my name. It’s a big part of my identity. I don’t really want to go by my middle name. But I am so sick of people’s unwelcome comments! So much small talk and emotional energy during introductions ends up focused on my identity, and I have to field all sorts of questions that would normally be very apropros of nothing in a workplace. For example “I gotta ask, do your parents just love phones??” “Oh so you do HAVE a Samsung yourself??” – They’ll make the Samsung ringtone sound as I walk by. – “You don’t really spell it like Samsung though, right?” “What, next you’re going to tell me you have a sibling named Nokia!!” Which of course I can usually ignore, but if it’s anyone to whom I might eventually mention my sister, to my chagrin, I’ll have to fess up and start a whole new line of questioning.

    I try all sorts of things – pretending I don’t know what they’re talking about, turning the awkward back on them, blanking them so it’s clear I’m unamused – but I fear this is going to be a lifelong struggle. I start a new job in a few weeks and I’m bracing myself for a brand new round of the “Holy hell the new person is name SAMSUNG!” game. Any advice on how to deal with it and shut it down quickly without seeming like a grouch is appreciated!

    1. Anonymous Educator*

      I wish I had an easy answer for you. Unfortunately, people are extremely unoriginal, but they all seem convinced they’re the very first ones to make a joke about your name.

      1. NotActuallySamsung*

        So true. If I’m particularly salty I’ll laugh wryly and say “Wow, first time hearing that one!” to make my point.

        Thankfully I’m moving away from a public-facing role for the first time in years, so I’m hopeful that once I get through the initial interest in my new department, the frequency will hopefully reduce.

        1. Overeducated*

          My maiden name was a noun and also part of a cliche, so I’ve heard the same joke my whole life. I remember a couple instances where I just gave an obviously weak laugh and said “yeah, I’ve been hearing that one since I was five!” – I wasn’t trying to be touchy, just ran out of energy to pretend I was amused and blurted it out, but it made it surprisingly awkward for the person who said it. Which was satisfying.

          1. NotActuallySamsung*

            The most common question – “Do your parents just LOVE phones?” – I frequently answer rather curtly, or depending on how ornery I’m feeling, with abject confusion in my voice about why they’d even ask that, “No.” Because the truth – that my father worked in a phone-related job, totally by coincidence, just opens up too many personal and exhausting lines of questioning about things that have zero bearing on my professional life. The short and not-playing-along version answer often trips people and sometimes even makes them stutter but honestly, it’s not our job to be their pun based jester!

              1. valentine*

                I didn’t see the bit about the new job. Ask the manager to amend the email announcement with, “On Tuesday, we welcome Samsung, our new title. (Comments closed. Comedians don’t interact.)”

    2. Turtlewings*

      To a certain extent I think this is just going to be inevitable. You can’t control people’s thoughts to make them not think it, and the name is what it is in popular culture. I think a breezy “Yep, I’ve heard all the jokes, so about that other thing!” is probably your best bet, but there will always be some people who can’t let it go right away. It’s unfortunate but there it is.

    3. Lepidoptera*

      My colleague named Mercedes answers those types of comments with “Well, I’m certainly not a Yugo!” and a pointedly upturned nose. She pulls it off well.

      She also occasionally tells the sweet origin story of the company owner (Emil Jellinek) naming it after his beloved daughter.

      1. Iris Eyes*

        That’s so perfect. I suspect a lot of it ties back to being named the same as a luxury brand. I think that gets under people’s skin in a weird way. I think some people feel like its pretentious, like you are either trying to be better than you are or rubbing it in their face that you are better than them. Buy playing off of that sentiment and making a joke of it

      2. NotActuallySamsung*

        You have merged significantly closer into the lane of my reality than you realize, if you catch my drift. Not exactly it, but in that lane for sure.

        1. Diane Lockhart*

          omg I think I guessed it and I love your name. It’s so elegant. People are dumb, ugh. I don’t know if it would work to be more literal in your reply? When people say, “Did your dad just LOVE phones?” could you look puzzled and say, “Uh, no…why do you ask?” And when they say, “Because it’s the name of a phone,” you say [as if clearing up very basic confusion] “Oh, but my name is spelled S-A-M…” (which works if the luxury brand is a homophone of your name). If they then try to spell out the joke, they’re digging their own grave a little bit.

    4. Murphy*

      When introducing yourself, you could say “Samsung Jones, no relation.” That way it’s been acknowledged and maybe they will just move on without comment?

    5. Lucy*

      That sounds really middle school, honestly, to make such a big deal out of someone’s name.

      Is there scope to have a related work name, eg Sam from Samsung? Not to hide your own identity but to fall back on when you Just Can’t Deal With Other People’s Nonsense.

      Otherwise a new job ought to be a good opportunity to just deflate any “hilarious” comments with a blank stare or “soooooo how long have you been trimming llama feet?” or similar grey rock. One would hope adults would get the message…

      1. NotActuallySamsung*

        Sadly no, there is no shortening of my name (although there is for my sibling, and she uses it liberally) – I did briefly & seriously consider using a similar but shorter and more common name – as if to go from “Providence” to “Poppy” – as my work name, but this new workplace interviewed and hired me as “Samsung”, as well as a few people there having worked with me before elsewhere in our field as “Samsung”

    6. Hester Mae*

      So interesting to read this and replies. I’m female, my name is uncommon but not unheard of. But not a brand name, instead think a mythological name with connotations like Zeus (who raped Leda) or Oedipus (who married his mother).
      I like the fact that it is unique but hate when people ask what it means. I know I could not tell them, but it (sometimes) makes me very uncomfortable.
      I’ve even thought about changing it, using a nickname or my middle name, but I’m late middle age and it just seems silly.

      1. Lucy*

        Could you sidestep the question with a comment about why your parents chose it? e.g. my name means light but it’s also traditionally given to daybreak babies, and I’m named for a late family member. It’s interesting enough to keep the conversation going but without getting into something that makes you feel weird.

        1. Hester Mae*

          Unfortunately, the reason my parent chose it seems pretty creepily odd, or at least unaware that it could be seen that way, and I wasn’t able to ask. :)

        1. Hester Mae*

          Auddish, I do that sometimes, and it is a good suggestion. Sometimes people ask about the details… and it can just be tiring to decide how much to say.

    7. A CAD Monkey*

      I feel your pain, but don’t really have any advice for you. My last name is highly unusual, and I’ve gotten to the point of just giving the genealogy and evolution of the name.

      1. Sophie before she was cool*

        People get so weird about names. People literally don’t believe the etymology of my last name when I give it. Yes, I’m sure my ancestry isn’t Hungarian. Or Ukrainian. Or Korean.

    8. Someone Else*

      There is probably little to be done to prevent this entirely, but if you want to try to maybe stifle the conversation earlier in the process, after the first remark it might sometimes help to go with something like “you realize it was a name before it was a brand, right?” I don’t have high hopes that it’ll help, but if you haven’t tried that approach yet, it might be worth a go.

    9. Sprechen Sie Talk?*

      Can commiserate – have both a first AND last name that people comment on. They used to do just the last name, but now first name has connotations for something in the popular public sphere so I get that question/joke now. I just let folks say it and ignore it and try not to roll my eyes :)

    10. A Reader*

      I had a coworker who’s first and last name is spelled very similarly to a certain celebrity’s name. She’s heard all the jokes. And that’s exactly what she tells people when first meeting them: “My name is [NAME]. Yep, just like [celebrity], except my name is spelled with an extra [mentions letter]. I’ve heard all the jokes about my name! So, what about you?” And then she changes the subject so she’s talking about the other person. I’ve heard her say this a few times, and she manages to get the point across.

  99. Toxic waste*

    Still in toxic job…. how do you deal with people who police others? They’re always complaining that so and so isn’t working, yet they also aren’t perfect. One guy literally naps, yet is the first to call out others who aren’t working!

    1. EmmaBird*

      If people are complaining directly to you– I have mastered a simple “mmm” non-response. Or I don’t respond at all. If they don’t get that I’d move on to “I’m not concerned about what Bob is doing, I’m going back to work now!” My past experience has been that these are just people looking for a reason to not be working.

  100. Anonymous Educator*

    Did anybody else catch the latest episode of The Good Fight, when one employee alleges salary discrimination based on race, and then leaks the entire payroll list to all the employees?

      1. Anonymous Educator*

        You totally should. I held off for a while, because I loved The Good Wife and didn’t think a spin-off show would be as good, but it is (in a completely different way).

  101. PinkyLady*

    I work in the educational/non-profit field. I moved to another state a few months ago and have been working in my field, but I knew the week I started that I had been somewhat bait and switched. Since starting, I’ve been forced to move offices three times and been reassigned projects to the point that I’m only working with one of the two populations the originally hired me for. The culture is also incredibly cold and corporate – not usual for my line of work. Additionally, I’m driving an hour outside of the city each way for work everyday.

    That being said, I have a second round interview next week (first was by phone) for somewhere I’d really love to work. I don’t want to count my chickens, but I have a good feeling I *may* get the job – it’s a very niche position for which I meet/exceed all qualifications. If I land the position, I’m worried about how my current job will take my notice. I only started in January, and they have told me what a superstar I am and how grateful they are for me. However, I HATE working here and ethically disagree with many of their practices. Additionally, I have some work PTSD from a time working in recruiting (5 years ago) when I gave notice and was immediately booted and escorted out, as well as threatened. I have a feeling my current employer could also be hostile given my short tenure. Is is appropriate to leave my laptop and phone on my desk and email at the end of the day let my boss know that I’m tenuring my resignation; that I’m happy to give two weeks but also understand if that doesn’t make sense/would be awkward and today needs to be my last day. I’m eager to avoid another tense or explosive situation, and know that if they are awful to me, I’ll replay that moment in my head for quite a while (which I’ve been working on in therapy). Any advice would be appreciated!

    1. WellRed*

      I think what you are proposing to do would make it even more awkward. They may react horribly, they may not, but you can only control your reaction, not theirs. If you give notice and they are awful, leave. Alison has myriad scripts for that. You have excellent reasons for finding a new job. Keep reminding yourself of that.

      1. EmmaBird*

        ^ This. Keep everything professional and standard. If they react in a ridiculous way that’s on them and not you!

      2. PinkyLady*

        Thanks! I think my desire to avoid conflict can make me a little crazy sometimes! I’ve just been dreading telling them. I’ll check out the scripts!

        1. Dr. Anonymous*

          Then you can replay in your head how awesomely you conducted yourself instead of how awful they were to you. You can roll an scene in your head of you striding off into the sunshine of a bright future.

  102. Web Dev Self-Teaching Resources and Advice*

    I’m working through some online courses and teaching myself web development. It’s early days yet, but I’m going for HTML and CSS, andsoon Javascript and React. I really want to stick with this and succeed, and possibly use it to fuel a career jump. Any tips from people in the field? Online resources you’d recommend (blogs, message boards, communities, places to get free/legal creative assets to use while building practice site)? Anyone make a similar career change after teaching themselves? I’d love any and all advice – from warnings to cheerleading.

    1. NotActuallySamsung*

      Does your local library have access to lynda? Lots of helpful tutorial videos there!

      1. Web Dev Self-Teaching Resources and Advice*

        Oh good idea! I’m working through codecademy at the moment, but I’d like to take courses through a couple of different sources to make sure I’m building a good foundation of knowledge.

    2. Dreamboat Annie*

      Congratulations and good luck with your possible career jump! For free legal creative assets, look into Creative Commons and learn how to understand your rights under the license.

      Don’t try to learn every framework and language – it is impossible. The ones you mention are good. Expect to be frustrated and try not to let it get you down. Stackoverflow can be a good site, but if you ask a question, please do your research first.

      Realize that if your web page does anything with a user typing in information, security comes into play. Once you start using Javascript and React, you can cause security holes. Unfortunately, the references I know are from a programming point of view. (Javascript / React are programming; HTML is “markup”).

      Understand how to test on different browsers and screen sizes, and how to write your HTML / CSS to be responsive – but don’t worry about that to start. Accessibility is important also.

  103. Zap R.*

    So, a few years ago my career was derailed by a pretty serious case of office bullying. (When I say serious, I mean “fired for discriminatory reasons and a protracted human rights commission battle that I eventually won” level serious.) It was extremely traumatic and seems to have permanently affected my ability to feel safe and happy at work.

    I started a new job six months ago where I’m in a supervisory role. I’m not sure what it is about me specifically (I’m queer, a little overweight, and have Tourette’s Syndrome so there is A LOT of potential fodder) but I’m back in a pretty terrible bullying situation yet again. This time, it’s not only coming in the form of abuse from superiors but two of my direct reports. We’re talking silent treatments, slamming things down on my desk, verbal abuse, yelling, walking away from me while I’m talking, and sending nasty emails to head office about my incompetence and CC’ing me on them.

    I work in an industry where my superiors can virtually never be fired, so I have no recourse here. This whole thing is incredibly triggering and I feel physically sick going in to work every day. It’s only been six months, so it’s too long to leave off a resume but too short to not look sketchy to potential new employers. Does anybody have any advice?

    1. PinkyLady*

      I am SO sorry this is happening to you. I would apply to other things and explain the situation (briefly) in my cover letter, but that’s just me.

    2. LCL*

      Can you fire your direct reports? If not allowed to fire them, can you say ‘I want a professional workplace, we can’t talk to each other like that it’s disrespectful,’ then walk away?

      1. Zap R.*

        One resigned, the other was canned for the nasty email. The issue is that now I’m terrified of my other direct reports.

        1. Zap R.*

          My other direct reports seem lovely by the way. I am just no longer able to trust coworkers in any way.

    3. That Girl From Quinn's House*

      I empathize, I was in a situation like that last year. My direct reports were screaming at me, talking over me, openly disregarding my directions, and throwing papers I gave them straight into the trash or on the floor. I also found out they were filing fake HR complaints against me. My boss would not intervene to help out, her boss wouldn’t intervene to help out, and HR was unavailable for some reason during this whole period.

      I eventually calculated that with that sort of behavior, even a corrective action plan wouldn’t work without backing from the higher ups: they would just think the corrective action was me being a b—-, and double down on their bad behavior. I ended up leaving.

      I’m sorry :(

      1. Zap R.*

        I’m sorry that happened to you. The situation with the direct reports has calmed down with the two troublemakers leaving, but yeah, it’s definitely hard to deal with insubordination effectively and not get labelled a bitch.

    4. NW Mossy*

      Based on what you’re describing, if your employer offers an employee assistance plan (EAP), that’d be a strong place to begin. The specifics of what an EAP offers can vary, but most offer confidential access to counseling and other forms of support at low/no cost.

      Even if your bosses were amazing, they wouldn’t be experts in helping you heal and it’d probably feel pretty weird/sketchy to have them in a quasi-therapeutic relationship with you anyway. Engaging someone with professional expertise in the sort of issues you’re facing may be just what you need to cope with the stressors while you figure out your next move.

  104. Demoralized on Friday*

    I need some perspective.

    I’ve been working toward a senior Teapot Design position for a few years now. I finished my degree, applied for a lateral move to a different team in my department (same work, different product) in hopes that it would provide an opportunity for me to get a shot at getting more complex, involved products, and it has absolutely not panned out that way at all. Not only am I not getting opportunities for higher-caliber work, but my own workload has fallen off a cliff. I’ve asked to be included on projects, asked for more work, I’ve volunteered to take stuff from other Teapot Designers who were swamped, all of that, but nobody’s super busy so people don’t frequently need an assist.

    Meanwhile, the Senior Teapot Designer on my team is a total shitshow. Blows deadlines regularly, is constantly absent, takes way more PTO than they actually have, is extremely condescending and demeaning to the other people on my team (including me), and most recently YELLED for 20 minutes at another colleague in a project planning meeting.

    Now they’re adding a new product team to my department, which involves open positions for a new Senior and Junior Teapot Designer, plus the other roles. I applied for the senior position, as did two Junior Teapot Designers. All of us are more than qualified for this position.

    My manager is on the team that will be interviewing the candidates, and because he sits 5 feet away from me, I overheard him say that he would be starting to hold interviews on Monday. None of the three of us who applied have received an invitation for an interview.

    So, I feel incredibly demoralized, not only that my manager can’t be bothered to deal with the fact that I’m seriously underworked, while also having another report who is an incredibly toxic and undermining influence on the team, but who apparently won’t even give me the opportunity to make my case for a promotion. I just had my yearly review yesterday afternoon, and when I brought up how discouraging this situation was for me, he suggested I “try to come up with projects for myself “ and said that he had no idea my workload was that light. (I’ve told him, several times. And I can’t just arbitrarily take it on myself to change Teapot Designs on my own, that is, like, Not How It Works At All For Very Good Reasons.)

    I just feel so damn upset at basically being blown off and not taken seriously because I’m not a Senior Teapot Designer, and therefore whatever I’m doing doesn’t really matter, and worse, that being a Junior Teapot Designer automatically disqualifies me from ever being Senior Teapot Designer material.

    1. EmmaBird*

      FWIW– I was in a (technically) entry level designer role in my last job. I actually had kind of the opposite problem as you where I was taking on more and more work– and harder work– to the point that I was pretty confident I was qualified for a more senior role. My boss used the fact that I was not getting projects done as quickly as I used to (um, hi, more work!) to prevent me from getting promoted. We had a brand new senior designer position open up and I expressed interest in applying. Was told flat out not to apply. I stayed in that company for another three years– take it from me– it did not get better. The hiring for that position fell through and by the time they went to hire again they downgraded the position to another entry level role so I couldn’t move up basically.

      The good news here is that by the time I saw the writing on the wall I was able to leverage what I could into a mid-level role where I’m making significantly more. It’s not the senior role I was hoping for but the difference in leadership is night and day and they actually seem concerned about my growth here.

  105. Stop Feeding Bird Food to Vegetarians at Meetings*

    This is a plea. When arranging catering for meetings and deciding what vegetarian dish to provide, ask yourself, “If I ate the vegetarian dish as my meal, would I be satisfied?” If the answer is no, the answer will be no for vegetarians too. We need fat and protein too.

    It’s 2019; businesses can’t provide 250-calorie crappy garden salads as the only sustenance during an all-day meeting. I won’t take it anymore!

    Some suggestions for real food: caprese sandwiches, anything with avocado, real bread (why does it always have to be a wrap?), any sort of spread that adds flavor (like roasted red pepper or chipotle spread), something bean-based, a pasta salad with substance, some sort of fake meat type sandwich (that’s not my thing but at least it’d be satisfying), etc.

    I know you can never make anyone happy, but with vegetarians most caterers don’t even try.

    1. Overeducated*

      Yeah, why IS it always a wrap? I’d like to add “order more than one or two vegetarian meals for a crowd.” I think we’re at at point in time when there is enough religious diversity and widespread concern about nutrition and the environment that people should recognize vegetarian options to be a pretty normal choice rather than something like a special allergen-free order. If “turkey vs ham” is such a widely recognized preference that people don’t usually order 100% turkey or ham*, why isn’t not eating meat, not eating *specific* meats, or eating meat occasionally but preferring plant-based options?

      *apart from one memorable departmental dinner where the only catered option was a large ham, in a department with multiple Muslim members, on a Friday during Lent…sigh. At least we did potluck for sides.

      1. Stop Feeding Bird Food to Vegetarians at Meetings*

        Totally agreed! There’s this mindset that a) non-vegetarians never choose to eat vegetarian food so if, god forbid, we order 1 more vegetarian meal than there are vegetarians, the world will end (nevermind that there’s always 10 ham sandwiches left over) and b) vegetarians shouldn’t expect to make choices in what they eat. Like seriously imagine if meetings were catered with a single “meat option” and “vegetarian option”. It would be rightfully seen as ridiculous.

      2. Sophie before she was cool*

        The wraps always get soggy, too, because there’s inevitably either some watery hummus or oily roasted vegetables in there. The number of times I’ve picked a wrap apart because the tortilla is too wet to contemplate eating is… much higher than I want it to be.

    3. That Californian*

      Also, please if you are not vegetarian, do not take one of the vegetarian meals if you are one of the first people in the door! I had to stand up and ask if anybody had taken my meal at a lunch once, and it was embarrassing for everyone concerned. Clearly admin should be ordering a higher percentage of vegetarian meals, but come on people.

      1. blink14*

        I have to guard special orders at our events – people will take whatever they want, even if they know they didn’t order it.

      2. Holly*

        Some people prefer vegetables – if the veggie options are popular, more should be ordered.

        1. That Californian*

          That is definitely the better long-term solution, and would have completely avoided the embarrassing conversation! For right now, though, veggie options are ordered for specific vegetarians, and taking them if one is not that person means one is taking the only thing that individual can eat.

      3. BelleMorte*

        I find that when we order vegetarian options, those are the first to go. Veggie pizzas, veggie wraps/sandwiches, they always disappear first. I’ve grabbed food for my vegetarian co-worker in some instances if she was further back in line because it would have all been gone by the time she got there. Sometimes people just don’t think.

    4. blink14*

      I’ve been working on expanding our vegetarian options at work events. Our budget is limited, so the main item is always sandwiches and wraps, with some sides and drinks. I order 2-3 vegetarian options per event (non vegetarian options are also 2-3). We also have been doing some special orders for vegan and gluten free (very limited selection with our preferred caterer, but we make it work).

      I’ve had several people thank me for the selection – always good to hear acknowledgement on something like this!

    5. pcake*

      Vegetarian foods that could work at meetings or in general include cheese and vegetable pizza (I prefer plain cheese with red sauce from Blaze, and I’m a vegetarian), pasta with marinara sauce, baked ziti, baked potatoes with all the fixings. Let’s not forget bean and cheese burritos, most mac and cheese, a variety of Greek, Thai and Italian foods, not to mention almost all pies, cakes, ice creams and puddings. Believe me, the list goes on and on and on…

      1. Lucy*

        So much yes. Particularly “sandwich plus” buffets can happily be 75% vegetarian and nobody would notice.

        At OldJob the preferred caterer had a range of sandwich options but one was called something like “obvious flavours” and everything in it was totally obviously what it was e.g. cheese and onion, smoked salmon, ham salad, so none of that delicate “tuna or hummus?” prodding. They did wraps as well as sandwiches, but for the kind of fillings that actively benefit (I’m remembering a particularly pleasing brie and cranberry), and they had excellent platters of fruit, savoury pastries (all V, like samosas or cheese twists) and sweet pastries.

    6. ElspethGC*

      Yesss.

      I’m not 100% vegetarian, but I have a sensory issue with enough meat products that I almost always put myself down as veggie for just about everything. (I could very easily go vegetarian and not miss meat, but I have bad enough blood iron levels that I want to get that fully under control before I start thinking about cutting out the last vestiges.) I still remember that one catered hotel that decided “vegetarian meal” meant “exactly the same as everyone else, but replace the beef with twenty boiled new potatoes with no butter/sauce/herbs”. Seriously. Gross. It wasn’t even a dish where potatoes made sense, let alone potatoes with no sort of added flavour.

      Also, my sensory issues extend to meat-textured meat substitutes, as well. If I go to one more place that decides the perfect alternative for someone who won’t eat a chicken sandwich is a quorn chicken sandwich, I will flip a damn table.

    7. Sam Sepiol*

      There is NEVER ENOUGH VEGETARIAN FOOD. Even before the meat eaters eat it too. It’s ridiculous.

    8. Allergic to life*

      Also, when catering for very large (100+) groups, please quit trying to make 2-3 “normal” offerings for the people with no dietary restrictions, and The One Special Diet Option To Rule Them All that is vegetarian, gluten free, nut free, sugar free, and every other dietary restriction you can think of (and is thus probably made of deeply bizarre “substitute foods” that pretty much no one eats unless they are on that particular diet, and that no attention has been paid to how the thing actually tastes) for the 20+ people who are on special diets. This tends to make for a really unsatisfying “special” sandwich, since every single part of it is made of up something bland and boring instead of just the part you’re trying to avoid. I’d rather just eat potato chips than eat that sandwich.

      It was particularly frustrating before I became a vegetarian, because I am allergic to a specific vegetable. I’d ask if such-and-such had peppers or paprika in it, because I’m allergic to that, and they’d start trying to hand me the vegetarian option, often visibly full of peppers, since that was their “special diet” sandwich suitable for all special diets.

      The best thing to do if you have a large group and can’t foresee all dietary needs (as opposed to, say, a predictable group of 10 people who all get together for lunches) is to keep everything as separated as possible (let me assemble my own sandwich or salad from components rather than grab a pre-made one, or add sauce to my own noodles and then not add meatballs to the sauce rather than make a pre-made pasta with sauce and meatballs dish), and then let the people on special diets go through first. Also, please have separate tongs and containers for each individual thing! I can’t tell you how many times I have had a cross-contamination issue because someone used the same tongs for lettuce and peppers. (Also, garnishes are awful. Do not garnish things with unrelated food. Carving peppers into flowers is cute and all, but now I can’t eat anything from that tray.)

      1. Stop Feeding Bird Food to Vegetarians at Meetings*

        “The One Special Diet Option To Rule Them All that is vegetarian, gluten free, nut free, sugar free, and every other dietary restriction you can think of ”

        OMG, yes! And that combo *shockingly* ends up being tasteless and not filling.

    9. The Doctor is In*

      Vegan here who agrees 100 percent! (Don’t even get me started about how restaurants do the same thing.. veggie burger or salad.)

    10. The Man, Becky Lynch*

      We only have one vegetarian and I made darn sure that at our BBQ that we had more than just his standard veggie burgers that we always make sure are available. I guess there were a few BBQs in the past where anything other than meat/substitute meat and buns were bought. I was able to stay well within budget and provide fresh fruits, veggies and salads. It’s also just one of those things where even the meat eaters need sides and other substance than just tossing someone a turkey sandwich and saying “Good day, sir.”

  106. Lepidoptera*

    I am the most busy I have ever been in more than five years at this job, and I’ve developed food poisoning and bronchitis back-to-back. At a time when I’ve needed to pull at least 14-hour days for a month, I have been either puking or coughing up a lung for ten days straight. I cannot afford this right now. My boss is freaking out, people up the chain are freaking out, and all I can do is ooze from every part of my face.

    I am not going to meet these unreasonable deadlines. They are unreasonable because my job is by design at the tail-end of a project, and everyone before me sucks up all the padding time and leaves me in the lurch. This will never change, it’s the same at every company, and it’s just the nature of my work. I like my job, but I hate that I can’t do my job in a vacuum so I’m not at everyone else’s whims. I’m so tired.

    1. Dreamboat Annie*

      I’m so sorry this is happening to you. That kind of mental and physical exhaustion can really last a lot longer than you would expect. Please take care of yourself.

  107. Cuddles Chatterji*

    Comfortable business casual and casual clothes for women?

    I’m working in a casual office for the time being and looking for alternatives to jeans, or the most comfortable jeans you can recommend. Also, I’m hoping to get a job in a business casual setting, so if that works out, I’d like to set myself up with a comfortable wardrobe. I’m an engineer, for what it’s worth.

    2. The Rain in Spain*

      I have several pull-on pants from ny & co that I adore in different materials. Very, very comfortable and can be dressed up/down. Hard to beat from a comfort perspective! But I also find any dress pant that has a little bit of stretch to it more comfortable than those without.

    3. manuka honey*

      If you live near a UNIQLO they’re great for pretty good quality, inexpensive business casual clothes. :)

      As for pant recommendation, Old Navy’s pixie pants are super comfy and they almost always have a sale going on.

    4. Nicki Name*

      Cabin Creek from Kohl’s has comfortable elastic pull-on pants that are my current favorite. Depending on the color, they resemble either jeans or slacks.

    5. That Californian*

      For tops, Modcloth has a bunch of tunics, sweaters, and blouses that are soft and comfy, and can be worn with anything from leggings to dress trousers. They also have tons of reviews and pictures so you can get a good idea of what the fit/feel/quality will be like. From my experience, I recommend starting only with those items that have a lot of reviews, because the quality does vary a lot on that site.

    6. cactus lady*

      Aviator jeans are the most comfortable ever!

      But also, dresses. Don’t confine yourself to leg prisons. Dresses are way more comfy.

      1. ElspethGC*

        All hail dresses. Comfortable, and everyone thinks you made an effort when what *really* happened was that you couldn’t be bothered to match separates.

        1. AnotherAlison*

          The problem with summer dresses is the shoes. It seems like anything but a heel or a strappy high heel sandal looks a little frumpy (or like you are going to the beach). Somewhere in my mid-30s, I was no longer able to wear heels without suffering for the next week. I’m all for winter dresses with boots, though.

          1. That Californian*

            Can you wear more formal sandals to work? I work in a place that is The Surface of the Sun in summer, and I’ve invested in some nice Sam Edelman sandals because I love their ballet flats. They’re comfortable even for my narrow feet and completely flat.
            However, I recognize that any sandals might not be formal enough. Being Californian means my standard for “looking like I’m going to the beach” might be different than for others. I have definitely worn my Reefs to work, and zero people cared.

            1. AnotherAlison*

              I can, but I don’t for biz cultural reasons. I made this decision several years ago. I used to have a role where I was mid-level, but had regular interaction with very senior executives without notice. I decided that I wasn’t going to put myself in a situation where a guy who sits on the executive board of $10B company was going to see my toes while he was in a formal suit. I hate being underdressed and already have enough weirdness being a woman in a male-dominated field, but I understand some people don’t care and would wear what they like.

              I’m in a different role now, but my boss wears suits most days even though we’re business casual. SVPs have to dress up if they have any meetings.

          2. cactus lady*

            Flats! I wear pointy toed flats with mine most of the time. Ballet flats work too. No frump here!

        2. Lucy*

          Exactly what you said. I can’t remember when I last wore pants* except to the gym …

          Jersey is your friend. Easy wear, easy wash, non iron. People are always commenting on my lewk now, and positively.

          *US pants. UK brain is twitching.

          1. Cuddles Chatterji*

            I like those aspects of jersey, not so much how unforgiving it can be with showing every line and lump. It is comfy though! Maybe if I went for loose fit jersey dresses I could make it work.

            1. Lucy*

              Some are worse than others, agreed. A pattern can help – my current favourite dress is polka dots!

      2. Cuddles Chatterji*

        I hadn’t heard of Aviator jeans before–thanks for the rec!

        I do love the comfort of a nice maxi dress…

    7. Seeking Second Childhood*

      I have the opposite problem… I’ve been in a very casual office for so long I don’t know where to get interview clothing. My fallback used to be Dress Barn, which alwsys had a few structured blazers tucked in with its dressy slacks… but with the conversion to Roz&Ali I’m seeing nothing but the slacks that I’d wear to an interview.
      So…I guess I’d suggest Roz&Ali. Sigh.

    8. Rainy days*

      It’s expensive, but I love that Ministry of Supply clothes are designed to be something you can wear to work out or to work. I can bike in their clothes and arrive to work still looking professional.

    9. Llellayena*

      Lee has an All Day Pant (I find it at Boscov’s) that is great for the jeans/work pant border and are super comfortable (for me at least). I’ve got it in 3 colors and I want to go back for more colors!

    10. Small-town dr*

      Soft Surroundings also has some great options. Easy care, low maintenance. They have the retail stores and an easy website.

  108. Moving to Australia*

    Networking. How do you keep in contact with prior bosses and supervisors. I’m not naturally a people person and so this is something that will not come naturally. So far it’s been reaching out with news such as when I find a new job. I also want to reach out now and let them know I’m moving to Australia and ask for a reference if I need one. Is that appropriate? Should I be doing more? Should I not reach out?
    I’m thinking about my internship about 3 years ago and the job I left a year ago.

    1. H.C.*

      I just did this recently for colleagues from 2-4 years ago. A brief email should suffice in a reference request. Mine is something along the lines of,

      “Hi [X], I hope all is well with you at [their current job/company]. I’m currently being considered for a [role] opportunity at [potential employer] and we have reached the reference stage of the process. Would you be available to provide a reference from when we worked together and, if so, what is the best way for [potential employer] to reach you? Thank you and I look forward to your reply.”

  109. Working From Home*

    I have a question about working from home habits. I find that I actually take fewer breaks when working at home, to the point that I sit in the same position for hours & it’s not great for my physical health. How do you incorporate appropriate breaks at home, how often and what do you actually do? I do chores or sometimes (not as often as I should) exercise on my lunch break, as I’m paid hourly. Thanks for your input!

    1. The Rain in Spain*

      You can set an alarm on your phone (or install an extension on your computer to pop up reminders). I make a rule for myself that when I have to refill my water (I drink a TON every day) or go to the restroom I walk around for a few minutes or take my laptop to the kitchen counter where I can stand & work.

      I also move between different parts of the house, if that’s an option for you! I usually start off at the counter in a bar stool, then migrate to the sofa for a bit, then to the dining table for lunch/after lunch, etc. This is also because I haven’t yet set up a desk space for myself but I kind of like the variety!

    2. LaDeeDa*

      I have a few preset times in my calendar- I have one for lunch, I have one for taking the dogs on a walk, I have one later in the day. I also invested about $200 in a standup desk topper to go on my current desk, so I get up and work during every conference call, no matter what!

    3. Sophie before she was cool*

      I have a fitness tracker that buzzes me every hour if I haven’t stood that hour. I find that a really helpful reminder for getting up to fill my water or put that plate I ate lunch off of three hours ago in the dishwasher.

      I also try to use the pomodoro method, and I spend my 5-minute breaks on short household chores (making the bed, throwing out junk mail, etc.).

    4. That Californian*

      I have that exact same inclination! There are two things that have helped with this: one is my dog has come to believe that he is entitled to more backyard time if I am working from home, so he stares and subtly shifts his feet enough to click his toenails every couple hours until I let him out and play fetch with him or pet him while he lies in the sun. It was raining today, but he still went out, lay down on the grass, and stared at me stubbornly. He hates the rain, but he will stand on his right to that union-mandated break from his packed schedule of napping.
      But I digress.
      The other helpful thing has been assigning certain tasks to be things that I either do while walking around my house (conference calls) or turning to them means I should walk around my house for five minutes first (timesheet, email check, etc.).

  110. Space Mouse*

    Re-applying to a job posting
    Hi! Long time reader, first time commenter ;)
    I am a big fan of a lifestyle brand company and have followed them for years now (almost 10+). They finally have an opening in their HR department and have advertised on their website’s career section, and on LinkedIn. I initially applied in January through their website. Didnt hear back. A month and a half later I saw the listing was now on LinkedIn and sent in my application again (with an updated cover letter).
    I never heard back either way however since I frequent them daily I cant help but check once in a while to see if the position is still available – and it is! It is now a full four months since I initially applied. Would it be totally weird if I applied one more time? And if I do, should I mention that this is my third time sending in my resume?
    I am in HR and I often recruit for so many positions that I totally dont mind if applicants re-apply and say something like “I know you must be be busy, just wanted to reach out and let you know I am still interested…” etc.
    Thanks for any feedback and – HAPPY FRIDAY! phew

    1. WellRed*

      move on. They know you’re interested and applying multiple times will hurt, not help, your candidacy.

    2. Someone Else*

      In general, I’d say if you’re re-applying to a re-posted job, don’t do it unless your original application were more than six months ago, but usually, more like a year. If you applied in January and never heard back, and now it’s reposted, they had you in their candidate pool and didn’t elect to interview you. If you’d interviewed and gotten farther in the process, it might be worth applying again because you don’t know if now they’re hiring another of the same position or if it’s open again, but if they never even phone screened you, you pretty much already know they’re not interested in you for this position with your current application materials. Three times in four months is way too much.

  111. Caterpie*

    Hi! My fiancé and I applied for the same internship, where they plan to accept several people. The work will be done remotely and interns do not work together on any projects. If we both are accepted into the program, when should we disclose our relationship (if ever)?

    2. ANon..*

      At the time of the offer. “Just want to mention that [other intern] is my fiance. Figured you should know in case it ever comes up!”

  112. SciDiver*

    Last week was a rough one (my last week in my grant-funded position), but things are looking up.

    Last week I: got a rejection from the 3rd job in a row I was a finalist for, had everyone I work with ask me about said job at a send-off happy hour, got a surprise announcement that I might not be paid for additional as-needed work on my project we had already set aside funding for, and wrapped up my last official day without any interviews or prospects for a new job.

    This week I: got feedback from the hiring manager from the last job (thanks to some of the scripts I found here!) saying it was incredibly close and there wasn’t anything in my materials, interview skills, or references he would change, applied for a few more jobs that are great matches for my skills, and got back into some reading/hobbies/activities I haven’t had time for the last few months. Fingers crossed I get some good news in the next few weeks!

  113. Not That Jane Doe, The Other One*

    Public Service Announcement (even though commenters here are probably the least likely to need it):

    If you are planning on just copy/pasting blocks of text for your cover letter from one you found on the internet:
    1) At least pick a good one to copy, not a boring, jargon-filled, thoughtless piece of trash.
    2) Don’t just google “(job name) cover letter” and copy the first one that comes up, because when another candidate does the EXACT SAME THING, your basically identical cover letters are going to be noticeable for anyone who bothers to look. One bad candidate (meh) and one good candidate (who was near the top of my list) down the drain for our search :(

    1. Sloan Kittering*

      My goodness, I’m glad you didn’t waste any time on that “good” candidate! That shows incredibly poor judgement and common sense.

    3. just a random teacher*

      This is how I’ve caught several plagiarizers on school assignments too. “Huh, weird. Fergus’s response had some details wrong and didn’t really answer the question I asked. I guess he didn’t understand the directions.” …time passes, the grading pile gets worked through… “Wait a minute, Wakeen’s answer is weird in the same way as Fergus’s. Did they work together? I wouldn’t expect two people to both misunderstand things this way.” (Go back and look at Fergus’s again, realize they are identical. Plug question into Google, look at first result. Mystery solved.)

    4. The Doctor is In*

      I had this happen on a job search for a director for a local not for profit. Two cover letters were identical. It turns out that the 1st one’s letter was used as a good example by a higher up in the organization, and the 2nd person copied it verbatim. Needless to say, the 2nd person went into the trash file.

  114. LKW*

    Long time poster, first time ranter…

    Working with client for 6 months on technical project. Build of technical solution 90% complete. Client requests significant design changes and can’t understand why this means that we have to essentially start over and thus delay this piece of work. What’s the most “what is like to live in your world?” moment you’ve had?

    1. Sloan Kittering*

      I was this client (not my fault, a senior boss got involved at the eleventh hour) and it was very helpful that the original contract clearly spelled out the number of revisions / hours / approvals involved in a process. When we broke the order there was a dollar figure assigned to this that we could show the boss – and it was a lot. He was happy to pay it as it turned out but I was relieved for the small contractor who might have otherwise been trampled.

      1. LKW*

        Yeah – all of that is in hand, everyone recognizes that this is not on my company. It’s more that moment when they can’t understand that tossing 6 months means we can’t keep the original timeline.

    2. Troutwaxer*

      I don’t have much to say except to offer my sympathies. Did something change on the client side of things?

      1. LKW*

        New team member on the client side pulled apart the data design and put together a new larger and more complicated model. A request to see if we could separate into smaller pieces and deliver parts faster was met with “No, we don’t want to do that.” Welp… then you get a new timeline folks. Hope you got some fundage dudes.

        1. Troutwaxer*

          Oooh. So for starters, you’d be revising all the database tables, then dealing with how you process that data, etc. Ugly!

    3. Kitten mittens*

      Every three months at my work we host an event. It’s actually pretty small but VERY involved. For the first year, it was just me and my boss coordinating it. In reality, it was mostly me (by her own admission). This in addition to the fairly hefty workload I already have.

      I’m a planner. I told my boss what I needed from her to get certain things done in time (that I absolutely could not do myself). I followed up religiously. I let her know how long the task I was waiting to start would take me to complete and let her know that that’s why I needed her piece by [day and time]. Also, this company waxes lyrical about work-life balance so, in theory, my boss shouldn’t have been expecting that she’d hand me something last minute or change something big last minute and I’d stay late to make it all come together. In reality, that’s what happened. Every three months.

      I had debriefing meetings with her where we talked about what could be improved on last time. I bought new software so she could better see what we’re doing, when, and why. Didn’t make a difference. Every single quarter we would be down to the wire on every major milestone of this tiny event, my other work would pile up, and she would wonder aloud why I was so stressed or why it was that I had to work so many extra hours (I’m salaried) or why I kept telling her we didn’t have time to incorporate that change when the event was in four hours.

      Finally, she decided to hire someone who was going to take over the event coordination, along with some other things. She expected me to be delighted and got really upset when I would not agree with her statements of ‘[Name] is going to solve all our problems when she gets here’ (actual quote). I tried to make her see that another hand on deck was great but our processes needed to change too.

      Then, crunch time this week. Major milestone for our event, new person in, and it is still a mess. My boss did not give the new person what she needed on time, did not give me critical information on time so I could help with some technical aspects of it, and I was as usual left to pull everything together. I did, but a day behind schedule, which upset my boss. Then she said this gem: ‘It always take so long. Every time. I don’t understand it. It just does.’

      TL; DL: some people are just clueless and they prefer to remain that way.

    4. Lepidoptera*

      Most of my job consists of accommodating the scope creep brought on by indecisive people. I deeply feel your pain.

      1. LKW*

        Oh I’ve got that too. I’ve got a list of things that we reviewed over and over and over and are now being changed and challenged. That I can deal with. This was just me saying “Hold up! You just told us that you need a complete redesign, which means we have to toss 6 months of work. And redo 6 months of work. Which will take 6 months. Why do you think it will take less time? Are there super magic fairy unicorns doing the development? Because unless we have unicorns, this is going to take 6 months.”

    5. Lilysparrow*

      I was ghostwriting a self-help book for a client based on their experiences overcoming terrible emotional/financial abuse and navigating a messy divorce.

      We got to the last section, where they wanted me to include some specific details from the legal decision. I wasn’t following their description and asked if they could share a copy of the order itself.

      Which is when I discovered that they were under a gag order, and legally prohibited from discussing anything about the case, their ex, their finances, or their relationship. With anyone. Certainly not publishing what would essentially be a tell-all.

      When I replied in horror, they just couldn’t understand what I was bothered about and wanted to go right ahead. Apparently the phrase ‘contempt of court’ was new to them.

      Since IANAL, I had no idea if publishing would create liability for me, but I certainly didn’t want to get involved, even as a witness.

      It wasn’t until I demanded an indemnity for any potential legal expenses, and that the client pay my lawyer for drawing it up, that they decided to write about something else.

      Upside: got paid almost double, since we were starting from scratch.
      Downside: Dealing with this person was not worth the money.

    6. Llellayena*

      Oh this is SOP in my field. Client calls with a change and the FIRST thing I say is “This does mean we need to push the schedule back. The final date would be X. Do you still want to make that change?” What’s fun is when the design change comes from inside the company. Fortunately they like me enough that I can say “No we are not going all the way back to concept 2 weeks before the end of the project.”

  115. Dear Universe*

    My husband was laid off in a reduction of force in August and has been struggling to find something since. He was at his company for 10 years and hiring practices have definitely changed since either of us were looking last. He applies for jobs constantly and has made it to about 5 interviews with only *1* actually contacting him back to let him know he was not selected. It is soooo frustrating and emotionally draining and I don’t know what to do to help him. He is very down and is constantly wondering what is wrong with him, and has not been able to get any feedback from anyone. I have combed the archives here and tried to pass along anything that may help but I honestly think I’m too close to the situation for him to take my advice. From everything I’ve read, it *seems* like he is doing everything right! So is it him or is this just how things are in the workforce now? I’m tempted to buy him time with a career coach if I can find a reputable one for a price I can afford. I think the other problem is that what he does is specialized and a lot of companies here in town don’t have that position, so he needs to find something remote or we move (which is not really feasible right now but he needs a job). He even gets turned down for entry-level jobs or jobs where he “over-qualified”. I guess I am just looking for someone to commiserate with or some sort of guidance or resources because I am feeling lost and it is so hard. Thanks guys!

    1. Sloan Kittering*

      He definitely shouldn’t take the lack of feedback / response personally. Unfortunately those are just the times we live in now, it seems like – even though it shouldn’t happen it’s basically standard, certainly says nothing about him or his qualifications. However, he should look at his rate of applications to interviews. If he’s applying to things he’s well qualified for and being thoughtful, he should be getting at least 1 callback for every 10 applications sent (I have seen others on this site boast much more impressive stats, but that is my personal rule of thumb). If not, the problem is in his application materials. Having five in person interviews and no offer doesn’t seem out of alignment to me depending on his field. I look for at least one in person from every five phone screens or else I know my phone screen game is the problem. I look for at least one offer from every ten in person interviews or else I know my in person game is the problem. But all this means you have to have a LOT of applications out there.

      1. Dear Universe*

        Thank you so much, that insight does help! I passed on what you said, so hopefully he will find the disconnect (if there is one). Or else, I’m going to send him to get his chakras cleansed or something to remove energy blocks lol.

    2. Insignificant*

      I can commiserate. I was laid off about 13 months ago and haven’t found work either. I’m “over-qualified” for entry level jobs I’d be good at* and under-qualified for jobs I think I’d be good at but that I that I don’t match 100% of the 15-20 requirements listed in the job ad. I hate how people keep telling me how I should find a job any day now since “the job market is so good,” or it must be nice to have so much free time, or I shouldn’t sell myself short, or I should switch to “x career path” (which requires a specific degree and years of experience). I’m thinking there must be something wrong with me too. Job rejections aren’t supposed to be personal but how can you not start taking it personally after a certain point? And I hate how if I get a job rejection, it’s generally several weeks or months after applying or interviewing. That’s enough time to totally forget about the job, and getting that reminder is painful and I have to wait a week or two to forget about it again.

      (*One hiring manager I interviewed with kept asking me questions like, “If I was a recruiter I’d wonder why you applied to a job that doesn’t require a degree even though you have a degree. If I was a recruiter I’d wonder why you applied to a job that doesn’t require experience even though you’ve had two previous jobs. If I was a recruiter I’d wonder how long you’d stay at this job since it seems like you could find something better. Etc. Why are you interviewing me if I’m so suspicious?!?! I did my best to explain why I was interested in the job and thought I’d be good at it, but of course I never heard from them again.)

      1. Dear Universe*

        That’s brutal and sounds all-to-familiar. I’ll be thinking positive thoughts for you!

  116. Cactus Pot*

    TL:DR: How do you deal with burnout while in the middle of a huge, deadline-focused project?

    It’s looking like I’m going to be working non-stop until after mid-May. I’m tired, showing up to work late, productivity is down, I’m a lump at home, house is mess, etc. I have several HUGE deliverables that have to be done and ideally done well enough to where I can put them in my portfolio. Right now, I’m focusing on just getting them done. Period. I’m going way outside my job description, doing work other people won’t do and I’m taking it on, because otherwise it just won’t happen and I’m situated in a position where I’ll take the heat regardless. HELP!

    1. Sloan Kittering*

      Can you schedule a big juicy vacation for the end date of the project, so that you can look forward to that? Can you treat yourself in ways you usually wouldn’t’ during this time and be extra nice to yourself? Maybe you order dinner every night, pay a housecleaning service, send out your laundry etc, schedule a spa day every Saturday, just as you get through this?

    2. H.C.*

      So sorry you’re dealing with the mid-project burnout. If possible, take it one day at a time (set and work towards short-term goals & deliverables of the projects) and use every opportunity (weekends, breaks, time off if you can take it) to practice self-care, decompress and not think about work.

      If you have other portfolio-worthy materials, focus on just getting this project’s deliverables completed rather than strive for perfection.

      Also, after the project (or your part of it) is completed, consider talking with your supervisor about your job duties and how this project is largely out of scope, if this will be a regular thing and if so, whether your title/compensation will be adjusted to reflect these additional responsibilities. Of course, none of this precludes you from job hunting too.

      Good luck and take care.

    3. Mouse*

      I’m in a similar place right now. I’ve been asked to take on a lot of stuff outside of my normal scope recently, and while I’m really excited about the projects (and also bad at saying no), I just suddenly feel crushed under the weight of Too Much Stuff. My home is a mess, my diet has steadily declined, I keep getting random bodily pains, and here I am at work reading AAM instead of picking away at the mountain of work. I feel like I’m just shutting down and trying to figure out how to break free.

      So far, here’s what’s helped: Being kind to myself and adjusting my expectations in terms of personal life organization. Watching fun movies to shut my brain off for a while. Making sure I get plenty of sleep. That’s all I got so far, but it’s a work in progress. :)

      1. Nicotene*

        This is my problem too, I get overwhelmed and then I shut down. Instead of making *any* progress on the task, I just waste the whole day staring blankly at the internet. I feel way worse about this than if I had just made some kind of progress, any kind of progress, and I know this rationally – but I have a terrible time pulling myself out of the spiral once it happens. No advice, just support.

  117. Jade*

    I am a mid-level manager who has been in this position for 8 years. We work in a very fast-paced, demanding environment. Everyone’s task load ebbs and flows, sometimes it’s continuous work that requires staff to be extremely organized and to know how to prioritize their workload. I have an employee who has been here for a few years. She started off as a temp and I hired her as a permanent staff member after 6 months. Over the last year or so, her ability to manage her workload has decreased. She overthinks every task and cannot keep up. She gets very flustered when overwhelmed and then makes mistakes. In her last two reviews, I have indicated that she needs to work more efficiently and that she needs to be able to prioritize her workload and meet deadlines. I meet with her weekly to review her priorities and assist with prioritization, but eventually I want to her to do this independently. I have been documenting what is discussed in our meetings and what my expectations are. We are starting to slow down, so the pressure will be off for awhile. I am concerned about starting our next season with her in this position because I know she cannot handle it, but I do not have enough back up to let her go at this time. I know she isn’t happy in this job and feels that she should be doing something higher level. She was in management in the past and feels this job is beneath her. I would love to hear any suggestions for how I can address this.

    1. Demoralized on Friday*

      Take a look at the workload itself. Where was her workload when she was performing fine, and where was it when she was struggling? Everyone has an overload point, and if she just plain has too much work, then yeah, she’s gonna struggle. People don’t have an unlimited amount of capacity. Your employee might need to improve, or you might need to hire another person because it’s too much work for one to do.

      1. Jade*

        Thank you. I should have mentioned that I have 4 others in the same position with possibly more work than she has, who manage to stay on top of everything.

        1. valentine*

          Can you keep the pressure on her to simulate the busy period or is the work not there or is this a union violation?

          Tell her she used to x but now does y and ask her what changed and what she’s going to do to ramp up to x.

    2. Sloan Kittering*

      Have you definitely told her that her ability to stay in this role depends on her improving? Sometimes managers soften the language so that the employee doesn’t really understand they’re about to be fired. But it sounds like she just needs to move on from this role, I’ve definitely had that happen. TBH you could tell her that she should probably be planning her transition out of the job, eg start job searching.

      1. Jade*

        She is 100% clear that I am not okay with her level of performance. I told her that she is not on a performance plan yet, but that is the next step if she does not improve. I am sending her to a time management seminar and doing everything I can to help her be successful. On a legal level, I’m not sure that it is okay to tell her that she should be prepared to start looking. She is covered by a union, so our HR department is very cautious about making sure every t is crossed and i is dotted (which I understand). The thing is the workload is about to decrease so I might not have the chance to move forward with a termination until we start getting busy again in the fall.

        1. Sloan Kittering*

          Ah yes – I have never worked in union settings, may be very different situation!

  118. socrescentfresh*

    Coworkers forgot my birthday again. At least this time I wasn’t as surprised as last year. Though for such a normally conscientious group, it does feel weird to be slighted two years in a row by two different people on the birthday rotation. I know it was an accident. It just feels crappy anyway.

    1. Avocado Toast*

      I worked at my old job for 4 years, and my birthday was forgotten 4 years in a row….and there were different people in charge of birthdays each year. I feel you!

      1. valentine*

        Appoint someone to reminder/nagging/celebration takeover duty.

        Find out if there is some list you’re not on.

  119. Tessera Member 042*

    Commenters in academia – what should I know when applying for a full-time English faculty position at a community college?

    I’m finishing my dissertation remotely after moving cross-country for my husband’s job in July, and this semester I’m also adjuncting a class through the community college online system (connected with but not directly tied to individual community college campuses). I came from teaching high school and have always been more interested in teaching-intensive colleges than research, and even more so now that I’m burned out from working on my dissertation. The CCs are a good fit for right now, but I also want to make sure I leave my options open for the future when I’m more willing to move again.

    I know I need to emphasize my desire to teach, especially the composition courses, and my experience working with different student populations in my cover letter (I have special ed background as well.) What else should I focus on – or avoid? If my application is successful, what can I anticipate for the interview process?

    Thanks in advance!

    1. VAP*

      I don’t have CC-specific advice, but I’m also a PhD with more interest in teaching, partially due to getting really burned out during my dissertation. Good luck! I hope the job works out!

    2. Thursday Next*

      A lot of positions require you to submit a statement of teaching philosophy, which gives you an opportunity to elaborate on your teaching practices and give specific examples. I’m not sure whether CC jobs require this, but if you look for sample statements, it could help you write your cover letter.

      Be careful to look at samples written by people with more than a semester or two of teaching experience. You really want to emphasize your classroom and mentoring experience.

  120. Awkward anon*

    Has anyone been in a place that played favorites? The work you do doesn’t matter- all that matters is if they like you or not.

    1. Sloan Kittering*

      This is definitely a Thing, but I also feel like there’s a hidden skill involved. What do the people who are “favorites” do? Sometimes it’s total BS, like they are related to the boss or something. Sometimes they are just more fun to be around, which is hard to duplicate. Occasionally – and I don’t want to blame the victim here – I hear this sentiment from people whose social skills are really holding them back. They feel like “doing good work” is all that’s required in the office, but TBH it’s not enough if you’re not also pleasant and easy to work with, and it never hurts to affirmatively seem enthusiastic / happy to be there. Finally I can’t say I’ve never done some minor sucking up in my life, and judicious application has been effective I’m sad to say. Flattery is the only form of deceit that works even when the person knows you’re doing it.

      1. Alianora*

        This is true on all counts. I’ve also had people complain to me about the boss “playing favorites” when from my perspective, their level of work wasn’t as good as the “favorite,” and it made sense for the favorite to be favored.

        It’s definitely the case that favorites are often determined by non-work-related factors, though. Which sucks.

    2. Anonymous Educator*

      I think that’s fairly common. I don’t know if the work you do not mattering at all is common, but there are lots of managers who play favorites.

      Some people have a very inner circle / outer circle approach to others. They think “This person is on my good side” or “This person pissed me off once” instead of thinking about actual behaviors. I tend to be a bit more Pavlovian in how approach folks. If there’s someone I don’t particularly like who does the right thing, I reward her for it (with praise, with doing things more efficiently, etc.). And if there’s someone I do like who does the wrong thing, I don’t give her special treatment.

    3. Teecha B.*

      Ah, favoritism. Sometimes you can do something about it, sometimes you can’t.
      I worked at a place once where the attractive people were given all the good assignments and opportunities for growth. The folks in charge were somewhat aware and perfectly comfortable with this choice.
      I’m still average looking, but I don’t work there any more.

    4. No Tribble At All*

      It’s common knowledge that the IT guy will do anything for any woman that asks him a question. Ladies don’t need tickets. Which is convenient for me, because I hate opening a ticket for IT for a 30-second question, but ….. it ain’t a great system overall.

    5. Adhara*

      I did, and while there is an element of checking whether you can grease the social wheels by being nice and smiley, most of the time you can’t do anything but get a new job.

      (One of the favourites at my ex job was actually ‘made redundant’ because her work was poor, but a couple of weeks later was rehired to a higher position because the director ‘regretted’ it. She still does poor work, but now on a higher ‘this can destroy the company books’ level)

  121. BlueDijon*

    I have a question about searching for a job as a growing young professional.

    I have been in my current job in higher ed admin for 5 years now, which was an entry level position but which I was promoted in to being just under manager. I am looking for a new job that’s a growth move – I want a new job not because I hate my current one, but because I know I’m ready for new challenges. My manager is actively encouraging me in this, too, so I know I’m not just jumping the gun.

    My question is, in all of your experiences, how do hiring managers look at applicants who have all the experience and can say how they can and will synthesize that experience to succeed in the new position, but none of the titles at an equivalent level? I know the answer is maybe just “it takes time to find that right fit,” but if there are any other factors in your experience, I’d love to hear!

    1. Anonymous Educator*

      how do hiring managers look at applicants who have all the experience and can say how they can and will synthesize that experience to succeed in the new position, but none of the titles at an equivalent level?

      The people hiring are always looking for whatever they consider “the best.” That may not be in a measurable sense. Some of it may be coupled with bias (think of phrases like “a good cultural fit”). But whatever their idea of “best” is generally decides whom the selected candidate is (unless they’re overriden by some higher-up who wants to engage in nepotism).

      So sometimes you can get the job if you’re just the “best” out of the available pool. You may not have experience at that level, but maybe none of the candidates have that level. Or maybe the ones who do in theory are terrible at interviewing or did something else in the hiring process that disqualified them. Or they got offered the job and didn’t take it. Or the salary is too low for them, but not too low for you.

  122. public facing librarian*

    Language please. A patron of my library who I had considered a supporter of our programs and a friend, (They had been to my home numerous times and I had supported their professional work) participated in a public event that was detrimental to my professional reputation and wellbeing. They consider their actions for the greater good of the community and as such sees no reason why we shouldn’t continue to be friends. They continue to send emails that express a positive attitude towards me and my work but also continue to advise me on my professional failings and how I could do my job better. (my supervisors disagree with their assessments)

    The only actions I have taken is to forward these emails to my supervisor and their director.
    Does anyone have language for this kind of situation. I am in a very small town and as such will continue to cross paths with this person until I retire. (not for about 15 years)

    My heart starts and my guts turn over every time I see their name in my e-mail in-box.

    1. Knork*

      Maybe tell her something like “you put a lot of thought into feedback like this, but I get plenty of guidance from my supervisors, and sometimes it’s hard to have criticism coming from multiple directions. Could we shelve conversations like these?”

    2. Colette*

      A lot of this depends on the specifics of your situation, but here are some questions that might help you think about this.
      1) Do you have to work with them? I.e. is remaining on good terms part of your job? (I assume it is.)
      2) Can you delay responding and then claim your schedule?
      3) Can you ignore any unsolicited advice? (i.e. just respond to the positive stuff, but in vague terms)
      4) Can you ask them to pass any feedback to your supervisor directly?
      5) Was the event they participated in actually for the greater good of the community? I understand you felt attacked by it, but if you look at it without the personal hurt, was it intended to do good things?

    3. LCL*

      How combative do you want to be? Because my first thought is, “you don’t do my job and have no background and no training in what I do, so you aren’t qualified to criticize me.” That doesn’t meet the community outreach standard, I think.

      What is stopping you from saying almost exactly what you wrote? “I considered you a supporter and a friend. Yet you publicly trashed my professional reputation and well being. I don’t want to be advised by you about how my professional conduct doesn’t meet your standards, and I no longer consider you a friend.”

    4. public facing librarian*

      “for the greater good of the community“ No. the criticism was unfounded and unwarranted but because it was a “hot button” topic, they got a lot of public attention for their statements. None of their public comments goals were achieved including demanding a public apology from me personally for doing my job. Again I have had the full support of my supervisors and administration as well as written and verbal, you are doing a good job, your work and professional contributions are exemplary.

      I would love to say this,
      “you don’t do my job and have no background and no training in what I do, so you aren’t qualified to criticize me.”

      “And you are not my friend, your public statements were cruel and unfounded even though you feel they were justified, please do not presume we are friends after the actions that you have taken.”

      As a public employee, I cannot. So I guess the best path is to count to ten, do not respond, and be centered in the knowledge that I am a professional in my field, and smile, nod, and ignore.

      1. Eff Your Late Fees*

        You’re a librarian? As a fellow librarian, I’ve also had to work with toxic / difficult members of the public and not been able to burn the bridge. If the email does not require reply, I ignore. If it does, I keep it real short. “Name, I will pass on this feedback/suggestion to the appropriate staff member. -Me.” and not continue to engage. Eventually they usually drift off at least a bit.

      2. LKW*

        As a public employee you have to give the most professional response. But you can block any personal emails. You can also see about getting a new email at work and not give it out. That may be harder but your supervisors may be sympathetic.

        You also never have to invite this person to your home ever again. You are allowed to say “Given recent activities, I think it best that we keep this relationship strictly professional.”

        Some people are boors and feel it’s their responsibility to tell the world how to be. You have the support of your supervisors, you have the support of your friends, you don’t have to be friends with this person and you can move them to the periphery of your life. If someone from your town hears this story -you’re not the asshole.

    5. Public facing librarian*

      Thank you all. The misery continues with renewed vigor as I must continue my role in this public facing position.

      “Given recent activities, I think it best that we keep this relationship strictly professional.” I really really like this.

      1. valentine*

        The professional cloak is your best friend in dealing with this person, as well as policy, if you have good workplace protections and people happy to mitigate this person. You can block their email and let colleagues handle them on-site.

  123. MDW*

    I’m at the very beginning stage of a job search – I’ve been in a role for over two years that because of constant leadership transitions and staffing vacancies has allowed me to grow “out” (by taking on duties outside my job description) instead of “up” (because of said duties and staffing vacancies, I haven’t been able to secure growth opportunities).

    Because of structure of my unit, I was reporting to directly to my grandboss, who has left the organization and is now in a leadership position at a large university. This person was supportive of me during the time we worked together, but because my role is at the level it is (similar to him being my great-grandboss), I feel awkward reaching out for a reference, should that time come. Does anyone have advice on reaching way up the ladder for references in situations like these?

    1. Iris Eyes*

      Don’t have direct experience but if they are someone who worked closely with you or generally oversaw your work then that would probably be fine. They can always turn you down if they don’t feel like they can perform that role.

      Most nice people like to help younger folks succeed.

  124. Restructure Hellion*

    Help! My job has become impossible!
    My already-busy department lost half our staff to attrition during restructuring, then we got at least four other full-time functions piled onto our team. None of the promised efficiencies have materialized, so with our outdated manual procedures we’re like a pit crew with hand tools. Overtime has become mandatory and everything is URGENT, All. The. Time.

    I don’t have time to think, much less look for another job. Thinking to put my OT money towards a headhunter even though I’m not a manager. Thoughts?

    1. AMS*

      Do you mean hiring someone to find you a new job? Recruiters are paid by the employer who hires you – never give one money! I know people have vast experience with recruiters but I’ve had great experiences (this job and my prior two were all found via agencies – in particular, I’ve had great luck with Robert Half/Accountemps, but that will depend on your field).

      But definitely consider giving a recruiter a try as a first step. The main reason I usually use them now is that its just so much easier – I give them my resume, do an interview where they figure out how they can place me, I tell them what I’m looking for, and they come back with matches. Its way way less time involved than searching on your own. Also, since your resume isnt going to a random hiring manager they usually dont need cover letters or individualized resumes which is a huge huge time savings – since the recruiter is going to bat for you with their clients that stuff sort of gets side stepped. Again, my expereince has been only in the Accounting field, so that may differ by industry and/or agency you use.

      1. Restructure Hellion*

        Thanks! Good to know the employers pay them. I am not in accounting but it is finance related. Plus my employer is merging so yet another reason to formulate an exit plan.

  125. Lauz*

    I’m due to be made redundant in the next few months but have decided to go early.

    I’ve been offered a job to start in 8 weeks. My notice period is 4 weeks. I’m due a bonus at the end of April, which I’d forfeit if I resigned before then.

    I kind of want to give my manager a heads up now. She won’t have to replace me but she may need me to do some level of training for the rest of the team. And I’d quite like to use up some annual leave before I officially finish, and think it’d br more likely to be approved if I sorted it out now rather than later.

    Am I risking anything if I informally notify my manager of my intention to leave, 4 weeks before I hand in my notice?

    1. Colette*

      If you notice your manager you’re going to leave, that is handing in your notice, so you’d forfeit the bonus.

    2. Akcipitrokulo*

      I’d keep it quiet. Geet your bonus and days off.

      Also when it comes time… maybe ask if they’d be willing to negotiate around redundancy payments if you were able to accept redundancy early. Without mentioning you want to leave, ask what’s possible – they may be willing to pay out on some of what you’d be due if made redendant (I am assuming UK from “redundant” usage.)

    3. Happy Lurker*

      Personally, I would not risk the bonus. I would wait until it is in my hands and then put in the resignation.
      I would put in for vacation time now to take ASAP.
      Good luck

    4. MissGirl*

      If you’re due to be redundant, they know you’re leaving. You’re only offering them a few more weeks notice. If they needed you that bad, they’d keep you on. Keep quiet until it’s necessary.

  126. Joshua*

    Happy Friday all! I was just placed into a new team with a new manager. I don’t know this manager at all so I am in the process of getting to know this individual and their style. For context, over the last year, I’ve been dealing with a health condition that has caused me to use a lot of sick time. I’ve been transparent and open with my previous manager and doing all that I could to get ahead of this and not allowing it to affect my work. I am now in a place that I don’t expect to need as much sick time moving forward. I think I’ve got a good handle on my condition.

    Today I had my first one-on-one meeting with my new manager. And she brought up that she noticed I’d used a lot of sick time. She then paused and didn’t say anything. The silence was awkward and I could tell she wanted me to elaborate, but I didn’t feel comfortable disclosing anything to a stranger. So I finally just said, “Yes, I’ve been dealing with a health condition but I hope to not need as much sick time moving forward.” Anyway – the whole conversation was uncomfortable and I can’t shake the feeling that I’m starting off with this new manager on the wrong foot.

    Not really a question – just needed to rant!

    1. LKW*

      You handled it perfectly. I’m sure that she paused expecting an explanation. You provided the information to which she’s entitled. If she makes it a problem – HR HR HR.

  127. Lizzard*

    I recently started job hunting and thanks very much to advice here I got an offer! However I’ve decided it’s not a good fit for me and I’m not going to accept. I’ve never turned down an offer before and I’m not entirely sure how to do it, how specific should I be? It’s mainly because their benefits are bad, is it worth saying that to them or should I just say it’s not a good fit?

    1. Amber Rose*

      If they offered better benefits, would you accept? If not, then don’t mention it and just say it’s not a good fit. Otherwise they might try to get you a better deal.

      1. Knork*

        Or how much more money would it take to counterbalance the poor benefits? You can even say “because I’d be covering the cost of [x] or going from [x] benefit to [y] benefit, I would need to ask for a salary of [#]?”

      2. Lizzard*

        I would accept if they offered better benefits, but it’s so many things I don’t think it’s possible to negotiate. Like they don’t have a 401k, and that’s not something they’ll add just for me.

  128. all by myself (don't wanna be)*

    I was wondering if anyone has ever received a Support Person* accommodation or has seen it in action and would be willing to talk about it. How is it perceived, does it affect how you/the employee is treated in general, things like that.

    It’s currently something I use in my non-working life on a regular basis and would need to carry over into the workplace– but I worry about the optics of such an accommodation, especially as it’s not the only one I’d need, just the most uncommon.

    *To borrow/paraphrase JAN: a support person is basically there to help the person stay focused & operate in an uncomfortable social setting. They can be brought to things like job evaluations & disciplinary meetings to help ask questions & remember discussion points.

    1. Middle Manager*

      Are you thinking about someone full time or just for a certain time period? In the mental health programs I oversee, we have Supported Employment Staff. They sometimes attend work with a client when they are getting started to help them learn the ropes and occasionally attend some key meetings with a supervisor. The employer has to agree up front to that though, we can’t require an employer to let our staff be involved on site.

    2. Deb Morgan*

      I was a Support Person a few jobs ago. I was brought in to help a long-time employee when his performance started to decline due to rapidly deteriorating health reasons, so it is slightly different than your situation. He was treated very well by his colleagues (because they had known him for so long), and they saw me as a welcome addition to the team. I worked with him part time (half days, every other day). I attended weekly check in meetings with my client and his boss to take notes and keep track of work priorities for him. I helped him carry out those tasks and keep his desk/inbox organized. His performance did improve when I worked with him. I left when he became too sick to continue working.
      Ultimately, it will really depend on the workplace culture and your colleagues/boss. I had a good experience being a Support Person. Good luck!

  129. Sneep Snoop*

    Just a little Friday venting – at a committee meeting this week, I presented some research I’d done on the subject we were discussing and one of the members snorted and said “Wow, you must have had nothing else to do.”

    Ugh, it made me so mad. I used to work in research! I’m good at it! It’s kind of a big part of my current job, too! What I presented the committee took me maybe 45 minutes total to put together, spread over the last 3 weeks. It’s super grating considering my department is currently short-staffed due to a couple people being ill and I basically spent the week scrambling to stay on top of everything. Actually, the sleep deprivation may be a big part of why this comment pissed me right off.

    Also, I have to add, everyone else on the committee was supposed to present some sort of findings on the subject (not just me) and the staff member who made the comment did not actually have anything to show. Maybe he was genuinely too busy for 3 weeks to run even a simple Google Search, but hey, also maybe he dropped the ball on this one and was just trying to make himself look better. It also might have been a good-natured joke and nothing else, I know, but yeah.

    1. Antilles*

      I understand your venting, but if he was supposed to present his findings and he showed up unprepared, I can assure you that everybody else in the meeting had a mental eye-roll of “yeah, and maybe you should have done a little more buddy”.

  130. Sled dog mama*

    I’m looking at going back to school to do a second masters degree in a niche area of my field. I have a coworker who likes to tell everyone how they should do things (like how to study) and frequency offers extremely bad unsolicited advice. He has a degree and certification in this specialty and is currently working on a PhD in a tangentially related area, about which he complains frequently. I don’t want to even mention that I’m doing this program to him but he would be the logical choice for a reference to the program. Since I plan to use an employee benefit to cover most of the cost I will have to discuss it with my supervisor but I was going to avoid discussing it with coworkers.
    I know that I can get whiny when I get stressed so I ws thinking of making a no talking about the program at work policy for myself.
    How do I navigate making my application as strong as possible, getting this degree, not having to talk about (or listen to him talk about) classes all the time and not turning into the office whiner?

  131. zora*

    Calling all Arts Management folks!! (especially Performing Arts) Would love some advice/resources.

    I am so excited to be joining the board of an incredible, small local theatre company! Volunteer, obviously, and I’ll be mostly helping with fundraising, and trying to punch up the marketing a bit. My background is in nonprofits, but I “sold out” about 4 years ago, so it’s been a while, and I worked in advocacy, not the arts, so I’m sort of teaching myself about the arts side of things. Here’s what I’d love:

    1. Resources? What are the best resources in arts fundraising and marketing? Especially for the new stuff that’s out there, I know the very basics for nonprofits in general.

    2. Associations? Are there any good associations/member groups I could join? I’d love to connect with others working in the sector for ongoing resources and advice.

    3. Any advice for someone getting into Arts Management? I’d love to do more of this, even if not paid, but my corporate job is pretty boring, so it’s awesome having a way to feed my soul on the side!

    Thanks!

    1. Avocado Toast*

      Look into USITT and AACT to start, as far as associations. There are also some great groups on FB (“Theatre Marketing Professionals” is one, I think)

      I would also look into downloading GIMP for design and using Canva. Those are my favorite design resources for the theatre marketing I do.

      Find your local arts council and see if they have funding resources or opportunities. If you’re in NY I can give you more specific pointers.

      I’ve been doing marketing for my community theatre for about 3 years and the best thing that I do is research, research, research. I follow a ton of other theatres on instagram to see what they are doing. Before we are about to announce a show I research how other theatres are marketing that particular show. I don’t copy content obviously but it helps me to get an idea of the best tone with which to approach each show. I also look at how other theatres do season announcements etc.

      LMK if there’s anything else I can help you with!

      1. zora*

        omg you’re the best!!

        I’m glad I’m on the right track, bc research is where I started. I was already on the lists/following a few local companies, but I’ve been signing up for all of them. Plus, related arts organizations, museums, etc.

        I’m not in NY, in the SF Bay Area, but I know we do have a local arts council. And I will check those associations.

        My biggest current question is what do you suggest as the can’t miss marketing/audience building channels? We were just having a discussion about the basically complete lack of critics/reviewers here in SF now, and trying to figure out what people are doing to replace that. They are already doing great as a small company, they’re financially sound, but we definitely want to increase tickets sales in the next couple of years, and I think the directors are not sure what will accomplish that.

        Also, I would love to have a little networking group/roundtable of local marketers/fundraisers to share, bounce ideas off of each other, learn from, but I haven’t been able to find one locally. Any ideas where to find one? Or should I try to start one?

        Thanks for responding!!

        1. Avocado Toast*

          Without knowing much about that area I would say check with the arts council about your networking group too! I know at least here, our arts council facilitates stuff like that. If they don’t have one they might be able to connect you to folks to start one yourself. I think that’s SUCH a good idea to network with people who know your area.

          Honestly, I do about 90% of my outreach through social media. I have a good email list that I send a weekly newsletter to, but I mostly am diligent about FB and Instagram. (Twitter is not my strong point!). Social has been SO effective for us. I try to not only push our shows but to create community around our theatre. One of my favorites was last year for National Selfie Day – I posted a status simply saying “Share your (name of theatre) selfie in the comments!” and it EXPLODED. It was so fun to see all our actors, volunteers, patrons posting their selfies. I’ve worked over the past few years on developing our brand as opposed to just selling each individual show, which for us means consistent visual branding, using hashtags like crazy, updating our logo, and those community/conversation posts that get people excited about being part of our “family”. We’ve absolutely seen our numbers increase!

          I also love when we have partnering opportunities with other arts orgs and/or other theatres. There are a few local theatres that will promote other offerings on weekends when they don’t have programming. I’m not sure how much this is helping any of our ticket sales but it is for SURE a boost to our goodwill!

          Sounds like your critic/reviewer situation is rough. We have one person on our board whose sole job is to build relationships with critics and invite them to our shows. She also pursues local news, radio, and podcast hosts. Lately a local university with a journalism program has been approaching us to do interviews with their students. If there’s a similar program near you, their students might love to do some press on you.

          Also, I love tracking our numbers. Our website is through WordPress and I keep a close eye on our stats daily. That’s been really helpful to track what’s working and what is not.

          My current challenge is to push our season tickets for next year. A theatre near me did a flash sale on “mystery season tickets” for a week or two before they announced their season. They offered some kind of discount if you bought season tickets before the season was out and they said it was SO effective for them.

          Best of luck! The best advice I can give is to not try to do everything all at once. I’m in my third year and every year I feel like I am better at my job. I’m sure the next three will be even better!

          1. zora*

            These are such great ideas, thank you so much!!
            I’m just helping out, the directors are amazing, and there are great people on the board. But I want to find the best places for me to jump in and try to move the needle. So, I will definitely start small and not try to do too much!

            If i ever have more specific questions, I might page you in the open thread ;) But this is the exact kind of advice I was looking for to get pointed in the right direction, you are amazing!!

            Break some legs!!

  132. Tired*

    TW: Rape

    Long story short, I was raped after a work event a week ago. No one else from my organization was there, and the rapist was someone the office works with about 4-5 times per year. I’ve already told my supervisor because it’s tangentially-related to work. Here’s the dilemma: I’ve been randomly crying for the past few days. I’ll just be sitting at my desk working, and then the tears will just start. I’m not sure what to tell my coworkers when they ask if I’m okay. The honest answer is that I’m not okay and I don’t know when I will be, but this seems to just leave the door open for more questions. We’re a small office and are usually pretty open about sharing health-related things, etc, so I feel like I should be honest, but I don’t want to upset others. So is there a good response I should use when they ask about the crying? Or should I just be honest and tell them?

    1. Akcipitrokulo*

      I am so sorry that has happened to you, and hope you reach out for any help that would be useful for you.

      It’s perfectly OK to say “not really, but it’s personal and I’d rather not talk about it”. Or say you are OK if you prefer, or tell if you prefer – but whatever you do is OK.

      And anyone halfway reasonable would respond to “rather not talk” with something like “OK – let me knw if I can help” and then move on.

      1. MechanicalPencil*

        I’m so sorry this happened. I agree with all of the above. If you haven’t yet, see if there’s any crisis centers in your area with resources that might help you, such as counseling or a support group. You may not want to talk yet, but maybe hearing others talk might be helpful to know you’re not alone.

        1. lawschoolmorelikeblawschool*

          Also very sorry this happened to you and agree you can say whatever you feel like, including sorry, it’s personal and I don’t want to discuss.

    2. Sam Sepiol*

      I agree with the advice given. I’m so sorry that this happened to you. You should be safe at work :(

    3. Holly*

      I am so sorry that happened. If you don’t mind me asking, what was your supervisor’s response – or if you’d rather not share – are you satisfied with your supervisor’s response? Is there an Employee Assistance Program at your job?

      1. Tired*

        My supervisor was immediately horrified and took down the rapist’s name and information and he won’t be allowed in the office. She told me to let her know what I need from her, which at this point I just don’t know.

        1. WellRed*

          The Rape Crisis folks or some other counseling service will be able to help with what you might need.

          1. valentine*

            Two weeks off? Working from home? When you are sitting at work and the tears come, do you wish you were elsewhere?

            To your coworkers: Family stuff or allergies.

            You might ask if she’ll ensure you don’t have to interact with him again (if you need to be at the/an event, they should bar him) and whether your employer simply cut ties with him.

    4. noahwynn*

      Are you comfortable with them knowing in general what happened? If so, maybe your manager can discreetly tell people something and ask that they not talk with you about it if that’s what you prefer.

      Alternatively, there is nothing wrong with saying it is something personal you don’t want to discuss with coworkers. Anyone who is reasonably respectful will be able to read the signs and figure out that you don’t want to talk.

    5. Blinded By the Gaslight*

      Are you able to take any PTO? Would your supervisor allow you to work from home temporarily if paid time is not an option? That might give you some time/space to get some support, and take care of yourself. I really hope your supervisor/company are bending over backwards to help/support you.

      As to your last question, given that the rapist works with your company several times a year, I’m tempted to say tell everyone so others can be wary of that person at future events. And your company should ideally cut ties with that person as a show of support for you, and to protect other employees! But you have to take care of yourself, and only you know what your company is like, how much support you’re likely to receive (or not), and how much energy you have to cope with that. Do what is best for your own peace of mind/heart right now.

      What a terrible thing to go through. Please utilize any services/support available to you. If you haven’t, you might consider speaking with a lawyer who can advise you on how to handle things at work, particularly since this was connected to a work event.

    6. Sneep Snoop*

      I unfortunately experienced assault as well in the past and my heart goes out to you. All the suggestions above are good, but I have an alternative one – would it be possible for you at all to get some time off to process all of this?

      You have just experiencd a very traumatic event, one that was related to your work to boot. A week is really very little time. It’s of course up to you to decide if you think it would help, or if you’d rather stay at work. Some survivors prefer not to disrupt their routines, while others really benefit from time off to spend with their loved ones or alone, free to cry, be angry, research options or otherwise just live what they gotta live without the pressure of having to hide it all.

  133. Job-Hunting from Afar*

    I commented last week asking for advice as to how to talk to my boss about working remotely full-time. She was not amenable, and has asked that I stay until the end of September, with the understanding that I will likely move in early July and be remote for the last 2-3 months.

    My question is, as my previous jobs have luckily come through networking, how do you recommend job-hunting from afar? I will at first live 3 hours away from my intended city (with family) and not move to intended city until I have a job. I can easily travel for interviews and such, but without feet on the ground there, what do you recommend in terms of looking for jobs? LinkedIn? Indeed? A headhunter?

    Some background: I’ve been out of school for approx. 12 years, and am currently a senior manager.

    1. Sloan Kittering*

      TBH I’ve used a local address in my applications and started applying as if I already lived there. Or, if it feels better you can note in your cover letter that you’re relocating full time to the area on X date.

  134. I'm A Little Teapot*

    Auditors of the world – you know when you do the audit, and you have some findings/recommendations and you’ve discussed them with the client? And they love them, everyone’s happy. Then you write it all down and give them the draft report, and all of a sudden they hate it?

    That is where I am at. Please send cookies. Report must be issued next week Wednesday.

    1. noahwynn*

      Safety auditor, but between what you described and when they act surprised at the findings in the report I hate it. We always have an outbrief to discuss what was found, possible corrective actions, and how the process will move forward. When they get the emailed letter a few days later they act all surprised at everything.

      1. Antilles*

        Fellow safety manager, can confirm. No matter how detailed your safety debrief is, there’s absolutely going to be stunned surprise at the results, like the 30+ minutes we mentioned previously never happened.
        I’m too polite/professional to ask, but it always crosses my mind to wonder “So did you think I was talking purely because I like the sound of my voice or do you just refuse believe anything exists unless it’s written down?”

    2. Jamie*

      Sending you all the cookies.

      (Just got back into auditing after a hiatus and it’s soooo good to be back and be that special kind of ignored again!)

    3. I'm A Little Teapot*

      Well, I think I’m on draft 3 of the DAY.

      Not helping that I don’t have an audit manager on the project – the one I had has been pulled off everything else to deal with a critical project. I was very lucky that he came to the meeting and half listened, jumping in when I needed help. I should have a manager to help with wrap up next week, but it doesn’t make it easier today.

    4. IntoTheSarchasm*

      I am a health care compliance auditor. Almost always done in a spirit of collaboration but once in a while somebody barks back unexpectedly. Not my favorite.

  135. Junior Dev*

    I went back to work this week, part time only for this and next week. Work itself has been fine and I think it’s been good for me to have something to do but I’m still struggling with constant anxiety and a fairly low threshold for panic attacks. (I am working with multiple healthcare providers on this.) I don’t know if I should tell my boss more about what’s going on, he already has a general sense of what’s happening with me and is pretty supportive. My coworker who sits next to me is also supportive.

    Coworker and I were discussing next steps for a software project and it sounds like “talk to team managers and executives and ask what they want” is a big part of it and it’s freaking me out. I am trying to add some code to demo some potential functionality but I’m nervous about meeting with those people. On the other hand this is the sort of thing I do want to do more of in my career, I just don’t know if I’m up to it right now with how bad my anxiety has been. Honestly I really just wanna write code and not interact with people but my job is not structured in a way that I can only do that for very long.

    Anyone have experience navigating this sort of project when you have severe anxiety?

    1. Lucy*

      I manage anxiety in this kind of situation by using email or one-on-ones rather than group meetings (eeeeeek).

      I use diazepam/Valium if I have to do big meetings. It works so well for me, the very thought of being able to take it begins to calm me down.

      My therapist advised me to write a list of my successes. It’s stored on my phone and also quotes client feedback. If the negative voice gets too loud, I look at the list and remind myself I kick ass at my job and that’s why I have been given whatever task I’m dealing with.

  136. Anon for this*

    This is inspired by the “employee self-identifies as a grump” thread, but it’s a little off topic, so I’m posting it here.

    I’m currently in a professional Masters program, and I’m worried that I’m developing a reputation for being a grump. Here are some things that have happened:

    —I was working on a group assignment for a course. One of my group members posted in our group text that a friend of his had sent him the answers, so we could just use those (this was like a math problem set, with very well-defined questions, so “the answers” was basically the whole assignment). I replied that I wasn’t going to put my name on something that was done by someone not even in our group.

    —For another course, we had to do a group presentation on a particular book. The idea that one person floated didn’t really have much to do with the topic, so I said “I think it’s important that we prove that we’ve read and understood the book. So I think we should do X, not Y.”

    —In yet another group project, I reminded someone that a particular section needed citations. He got mad, because he’d just pulled those paragraphs out of his ass rather than from reputable sources (as I’d secretly been suspecting all along).

    So basically, if my grade or integrity is on the line, I can be a real jerk when someone is wrong (factually, ethically, or just not adequate-quality work). I suspect that in the workplace, these particular things won’t be as much of a problem: there are hierarchies where someone officially owns a project, each collaborator has their area of the project that they own, and projects get feedback before they reach their final stage rather than after. And if someone is doing something unethical or that just won’t work, this can be brought up with a manager. And your manager will know that Alice’s work on the teapot handle was excellent, and although the glaze was a disaster, that was Bob’s responsibility — rather than “all six of you get a C+ for the teapot.” (I’m in one of those rare fields where employers really do care about your GPA.) But I’m still worried because I have trouble finding the line between not speaking up and going along with something that’s not good enough, on the one hand, and being unkind on the other.

    1. Akcipitrokulo*

      I don’t think the problem with the self identifying grump was that they were raising legit issues or insisting on doing things right – as you are – but the way they were doing it. Being matter of fact and cheerful in general goes a long way.

      I’m a tester. It’s literally my job to tell people that something is wrong and needs fixed.

      Attitude is key – and passive voice can help with that. “Bug was introduced…” not “X introduced a bug.” “Do those sections have citations?” not “Do you have the citations?” Now, sometimes direct is good :) but if you frame it as WE are addressing impersonal issue, and aim is that all of us look good, it helps.

      Also don’t give advice! Give *information*.

      “You should do X because Y…” would be better as “Doing X will have Y favourable result.”

      As does having rep for being friendly at other times.

      TL:DR … calm and professional sticking to guns is not being a grump.

      1. Anon for this*

        Haha, yes, I’m a frequent user of impersonal/passive language, sometimes excessively so. And everything’s a “we” statement. “It looks like we still need to put in citations on page 3 and 7” rather than “Fergus, your citations are missing.” Sometimes people do see through it, as in this case.

        Since we’re all students in the same program, we ostensibly are all equals and nobody is an expert who’s qualified to give “advice” to the others in the first place. I can’t actually tell people what to do, even if I do happen to be right, because who died and made me queen, you know? So I usually don’t, unless I think that we’re heading for disaster (plagiarised assignment, off-topic presentation, etc.).

        I think the part of the grump post that reminded me of this was the part about going immediately to “no, that won’t work” instead of discussing first.

    2. Elaine*

      None of the examples you’ve listed seem unreasonable to me. I certainly wouldn’t go along with the first and third examples, and the second one, while not so clear, probably wouldn’t have flown with me, either.

      I suspect the root of your problem may be that you’ve set up a false dichotomy of “not speaking up” and “being unkind.” Speaking up does not preclude being kind. And it isn’t kind to say nothing when a mistake is clearly being made that will affect the grade.

      Be honest with yourself – do you consider yourself to be blunt or plain spoken? Are people often offended at what you say or find it difficult to work with you? Do you embarrass them in front of the group when you raise concerns/objections? Then you might get much better results if you raise the issues more tactfully. If this IS your problem, changing your approach will serve you well in the work world.

      Or is the issue that you’re working with people who are sensitive to any criticism, however carefully expressed? Or arrogantly think they know more than the rest of the group? That’s really annoying to deal with, but relying on calmly stated facts without judgment will help.

      1. valentine*

        Your examples weren’t unkind, but you can’t sacrifice integrity for that, anyway.

      2. Anon for this*

        It’s not so much a false dichotomy as how my personality works, unfortunately. If I don’t care about the outcome, and/or if I can live with the decision even if I disagree, I won’t necessarily express that disagreement. But if I do care, especially if I think that the consensus decision will lead to disaster in some way, then I tend to say so. Perhaps more bluntly than I should.

        It could be that some people are arrogant; the no-citations guy was. He was also the only man in our six-person group, and tried to cut me off a few times in our conversations…once I realized that he had these interrupting tendencies, I simply didn’t stop talking until I was finished whenever he tried to do it again. He was shocked, along with the rest of the group. I don’t think I was in the wrong, but everyone else certainly thought so! But the other thing is, I’m probably the arrogant one at times as well, and I usually try to hide it. And unless it comes out that others are OK with slapping our names on someone else’s answers, for instance, I hide it successfully.

    3. Penguin*

      I suspect the pushback you’re getting has more to do with inexperience/immaturity on the part of your fellow students than with you being “a grump”. (Although that assumes that respect for things like ethical standards increases with life experience, and the archives here assure us that that is NOT always the case.) On its own, there is nothing wrong with enforcing a boundary of being honest and ethical and working to spec.

      That said, yeah, you might want to consider how you’re phrasing these boundary enforcements and what your tone of voice is. (I had an AWFUL time with this in and around grad school.) “Hey, using someone else’s answers doesn’t help us learn anything and it’s also against the school’s ethics and conduct policies so the professor could fail us if they realize we did that, so let’s do the work ourselves” said in an upbeat tone might help you. (Leave the harder “I will not do that” for when/if your group member keeps pushing.)

      Alison often suggests treating interpersonal conflicts around explicit things (like following laws) as if the other person has overlooked something rather than their being malicious or willfully ignorant; I’d suggest something similar here. With the group member who wanted to include text that he had written without referencing anything, you could say “Oh, Fergus, we need to cite everything- where are your sources for this section?” (again, using a cheerful, upbeat tone). When he responds that he doesn’t have any, you might say “Well, Prof. X emphasized that unsupported claims would mean we’d lose a letter grade so we’d better redo this.” A matter-of-fact tone can work wonders, so treating it like of COURSE he’ll correct this can help skip past the point where he might double-down.

      It might also help (if you struggle with this as I did in grad school) to consciously make yourself consider your fellow students in the most compassionate light possible. Not because of any “golden rule” (although treating others the way you want to be treated is not a bad idea) but because it counteracts cynicism and excessive cynicism WILL poison your interactions with other people.

      1. Anon for this*

        Yeah, I think tone of voice and demeanor might be kind of a problem. I’m pretty shy and low-key most of the time, and I’m also very bad at performing femininity with my voice, which people probably find a bit off-putting (in contrast to, say, Alison; I think if I tried to talk like her examples on her podcast, I’d just sound sarcastic or mocking).

        It’s interesting that you suggest longer explanations; I’d actually interpret that as more condescending on the receiving end (explaining why citations are needed, instead of just pointing out that they’re needed, because we all know why they’re important and oops, we’ve just forgotten to put them in). Definitely something to think about, though.

  137. Awkward Position*

    I work at a small business, and I had a coworker leave recently. My boss took it very personally, and has been saying to everyone that at Company you should really give much longer than 2 weeks notice. He’s also been talking to me about how to improve morale and retention, and to find and keep “rockstars” like me. My boss has also mentioned before that if I ever want to leave, please let them know what he can do to keep me. (I feel like I’m bragging, sorry!) I feel so guilty because I am looking as well, and I just applied to another job. There are some fantastic opportunities for growth if I stay, but I’ve decided I really don’t find this kind of work to be fulfilling and don’t want to stay in this industry anymore. But they can’t change the industry, and based on other’s experiences I’m worried about getting pushed out if I’m open about my search. I’m fairly early in my career, and I’ve been there a little more than 2 years. I don’t want to burn this bridge, but I’m worried it’s inevitable. I realize I’m borrowing trouble until I get an offer, but I would love to hear from others how they’ve dealt with this!

    1. CatCat*

      Well, your boss is asking for information that he’s not entitled to know about. He’s also upset about norms with at-will employment, which well, you can’t change his feelings. The norm is what it is.

      You have nothing to feel guilty about. If he gets upset when you put in your notice, you can just tell him, “An opportunity to move into [industry] fell in my lap and I’m really excited to move to [industry]. It’s been great here, but I have to make this change so my career can be in [industry].”

      If he complains about only getting two weeks notice, you can say something like, “After you said people should give more than 2 weeks, I did some research and 2 weeks is the professional norm for an at-will employee. I’ve set my start date with New Job based on giving 2 weeks notice.” (Doesn’t matter if New Job starts in 4 weeks and you wanted 2 weeks off. You planned accordingly with your notice.)

    2. The Man, Becky Lynch*

      Sliding in here as the person with a lot of small business background as well as bosses who love to take things personally.

      This is a “his problem” not a “your problem”. Ef him if he really believes he deserves more than two weeks notice, has he ever fired someone? I bet he never gave that terminated employee notice, let alone 2 weeks notice. That’s ridiculous.

      Part of being the person making the big bucks/owning a business is to shoulder this turnover. Make your company desirable, take care of your employees and do your best to retain them. You cannot act like you own them or they owe you anything for the ‘opportunity’ to work for you.

      Get yourself out of there and tell him nothing until it’s time to give notice. He’s abusing his power and playing head games with you, that’s not okay and just totally uncool.

  138. Nervous Accountant*

    3 days ago my grand boss decided that 1 extremely time consuming task will be taken off mine and my coworker’s plate. Which is a godsend.

    Until the next day, boss still proceeded to email us about that task. It’s a “reminder” to “delegate” but as far as we’re concerned it’s still the task that we were promised would be taken off our plate.

    She’s a huge micromanager. Any way we can bring this up to her?

    1. boredatwork*

      You could frame is as a “growth opportunity” – you can’t take on harder/more sophisticated work if you can’t off-load your menial stuff. My boss uses this to get me to do his “admin work” and I’ve used it to stop prepping tedious things, I’m a “reviewer” now.

      Basically, say hey micromanager – “I’d love to stay super involved in *task* but it’s important that I let that job go to someone else, I’ve delegated to THE FARTER, you should follow up with him.” she can go micromanage the new victim.

      1. valentine*

        If she’s meant to delegate, consider it an FYI.

        If you’re meant to delegate, do so ASAP.

  139. Untied shoelaces*

    My boss became a priest and now wears his clerical collar to the office at least once a week, sometimes more often. This really rubs me the wrong way, particularly in meetings, but I admit I have a chip on my shoulder when it comes to religion. I was hoping with time I’d get used to it, but I haven’t. I feel ridiculous that someone else’s clothing is bothering me so much. I don’t like the color yellow but I don’t cringe every time someone at work wears a yellow shirt. Can anyone suggest a way to reframe this in my head?

    Here are a few extra facts so the conversation doesn’t get derailed:
    We work at a state college that does offer a few classes related to religious studies but we don’t work in that department and he doesn’t teach any of those classes.
    If anyone higher up had a problem with it, they’ve had plenty of time to say something. They haven’t.
    He’s salaried, and from what I see he’s legitimately working at least 40 hours a week so he’s not short-changing the college by ministering on the side during the day.
    He not doing his ministering in the office, he has never proselytized at me and I’ve never seen or heard him do it to anyone else.

    1. Akcipitrokulo*

      Does it help that he isn’t wearing it AT you? And sounds like is good at respecting boundaries in that area?

    2. blink14*

      How would you feel working with someone who wears something else religious – a cross, crucifix, etc or another religious item of clothing or jewelry (Christian or of another religion)? It’s a similar thing.

      The clerical collar is worn by priests, ministers, and pastors across the Christian religion, and in my experience, it’s often just part of their daily wear. Your boss may not even realize he has it on, or has put it on at the start of the day to prepare for something after work.

    4. Lucy*

      I went to a college which had an associated theological college (affectionately known as “vicar school”) so I know unusually many priests. They don’t wear their clerical collars when they aren’t actively working at their vicar jobs, and at least one of them has spoken to me about people who do – that’s it’s a bit like putting your title in your Facebook name. Not changing your shirt is fine, but pop the plastic collar part out.

      If he’s going straight from your office to a priestly engagement (or vice versa) then he isn’t doing it “at” you. It’s also possible he’s just excited and proud while it’s new, so you could look at it like he’s wearing a birthday hat all week.

      But it would absolutely weird me out too.

      1. Emi.*

        Counterpoint: I’ve heard priests say that to them, their clerical garb is like a wedding ring. They wear it all the time because it’s a deeply important part of their life and their identity (actually moreso than marriage, at least in the Catholic Church), but it’s still not at you, and you can ignore it.

          1. blink14*

            It is – Catholic priests tend to be in sort of a “uniform” that includes the clerical collar. I believe for other Christian denominations, the clerical collar has different levels of importance depending on the denomination.

        2. blink14*

          Yes. I had a relative who was a Catholic priest, and he wore his clerical collar most days, in a similar way that many nuns wear habits full time. I’m assuming the person in this case is not a Catholic priest, given he’s still working a full time job, so my thought is he is at a minister or pastor level who is likely trying to wear that hat and the work hat at the same time and hasn’t yet figured out how to balance it all.

    5. CDM*

      I’m with you. I find it highly inappropriate that a state employee with a taxpayer-funded salary is wearing clerical garb at the workplace. And I disagree that it’s similar to wearing a crucifix, a hijab or a yarmulke. Those are representative of personal religious beliefs, while a clerical collar is representative of religious authority.

      The EEOC page doesn’t quite address this, it does say that religious garb that is “clearly personal” is protected for government employees.

        1. valentine*

          And I disagree that it’s similar to wearing a crucifix
          Yes, the collar signifies the leader of a flock, not a sole follower. Even if an entire family believes and wears crosses or crucifixes, they move individually, whereas the collar carries all the weight of, not just religion, but Christianity and, therefore, its colonization and other abuses. There’s no need to wear the collar when he’s not acting in his religious capacity.

    6. NotMyRealName*

      I kind of have a problem with an instructor at a state college wearing a clerical collar while teaching a non-religious subject. It could make him less approachable to students who are not his religion.

    7. MaureenC*

      Maybe he thinks that on days where he’s first doing clerical duties and then teaching, or vice versa, that it’s fine for him to wear the collar the full day? Also, as the Anglican versus Catholic discussion indicates, it’s dependent on which denomination he is, and maybe even which diocese. If he’s screwing it up, his priestly overlords are going to be the ones to call him on it.

    8. CatCat*

      Religious attire can be so deeply personal and tied to identity. When you start to feel annoyed that Ted is wearing a religious collar, can you say to yourself. “It’s great that I work in a place where someone can be so open about their true self.”

      Maybe thinking about the broader picture of the workplace rather than as a personal thing may help.

  140. Akcipitrokulo*

    I have a new job!

    More money, closer to family, less commuting time, more room for progression…

    Which is all great! But I am really, really going to miss my current role and colleagues. Over the past few years I’ve gained a lot of knowledge and people come to me to ask things… so going to be weird being at the start again.

    Also I love my department. And this has been my favourite job ever.

    Anyone else felt regrets leaving a job, even when it is the right move? (2 months’ notice, so lots of time to say bye!)

  141. Kali*

    …and I am DONE! Here is a very long rant about the last semester of work.

    I’m a mature student (30, went to uni at 27), and I’m a Senior Student Ambassador this year (so instead of doing tours, I tell other people to do tours). This has involved working with a team of 9 other Seniors, and my god, they have been getting on my nerves. They started the year by giving the cushiest jobs to their friends every week (I didn’t notice this until one of them said “guys, we have to stop doing that, people are beginning to comment), and then threw multiple hissy fits when I asked that we organise a non-drinking social, since some of our coworkers are Muslim, or have other reasons to prefer not to be in a pub. Literally coming up with the stupidest excuses like, “but student socials are like that!” and “but we get the majority!”. Oh my god, the problem isn’t the majority, the problem is that the same minority is being left out every single time. Halfway through the year, we all (as in, every third year) had to complete an assignment on workplace behaviour, and the exact example given was coworkers being left out of social events for a protected trait, and it still didn’t help. We never got anything organised – they came up with excuses and reasons not to do it right up until we ran out of time.

    There’s also a group chat, filled with 10% useful work info and 90% banter. One thing that really got on my nerves about that – which, admittedly, isn’t a case of anyone doing anything wrong, as such, just something painful for me – was that I have a lot in common with another Senior, but every trait we share, things like enjoying spreadsheets or not eating baked beans, they attributed only to him, and it made me feel really invisible and depressed. I’m better at spreadsheets than he is. It really rattled my chain, to have my skills and things I consider part of my identity just…completely ignored. It didn’t help that one member of the group was a full-on Mean Girl – she’d cut me off mid-sentence, ask me questions and then immediately start talking to someone else before I could answer, and constantly forget everything we’d ever talked about.

    This semester, we’ve had 9 open days, and we did the last one last week. On that day, Lily – one of the friends who got the cushy roles – was doing a tour of the university which, uniquely, included some of the local college buildings as well. It was a tour specifically for people who were doing a foundation year at that college before coming to the uni. The day was also unique because it was exclusively for people who already had offers to attend, rather than being an interview day. Anyway, at the start of the day, one of Lily’s tour group asked if he could skip most of the day and meet up with them later, for the college part. He’d already done most of the tour when he’d come in for his interview, and was only interested in that part. She tried to put him off, but eventually agreed to meet him at ten past 4, for the last part of the tour. At ten past four, I saw him waiting, and asked Senior Lily – they both do literally have the same name, and Senior Lily is the one in charge of the team Lily is in – where Lily was. She said “She has to take care of her tour group, she can’t just leave them”. Like, okay, no need to be hostile, he is also part of her tour group. Lily turned up at 4:20, without her tour group, with an “oh shit” expression when she spotted the guy waiting. I saw them talking, but didn’t see what happened after that. So, later, I asked in the group chat, “did Lily take that guy to the college”. Cue very hostile “what’s the problem, why would you ask that?” style replies. I asked because, I saw Lily being reluctant to answer his questions and arrange to meet, forgetting to meet him, turning up without her tour group (so she’d already been to the college), and Senior Lily claiming the guy “wasn’t really” part of the tour. It wouldn’t have been a surprise to me if Lily had decided not to bother and fobbed him off with an excuse. I checked because, to be fair, a lot of that was in my interpretation; maybe Lily just didn’t want to make the guy wait around for 3 hours to do a 20 minute part of the tour, and maybe she’d left the rest of her group waiting downstairs and I just misread her face. Asking “did X do Y?” is a completely normal question to hear at work, and I can do without the teenage-whining.

    I waited two days before asking if there were any more Senior events coming up that anyone could think of, and, on hearing ‘no’, said “I’ll say my goodbyes now then, have a good graduation!” and exiting. 8 members of the group graduate this year and I never have to see them again if I don’t want to. I don’t graduate because I’m on an MSci rather than a bachelors, and the other doesn’t because she’s on her year-in-industry, which just happens to be taking place in the same city as the university. Next year, neither of us are allowed to be Seniors (because it’s a good trainee-management role, and it’s not fair to those coming up behind us if we hog it), and we don’t go back to being normal ambassadors. I’m hoping to be able to spend the interview days running the scientific demos (we’re the school of biological sciences).

    Sorry if that was long and hard to follow! TLDR: had to work with cliquey teens, drove me round the twist.

    1. valentine*

      These people need to be held to professional standards. I wouldn’t have behaved this way as a high school freshperson.

  142. Ruffingit*

    ANNOYING CO-WORKER THREAD!

    Tell me about your annoying co-workers and what they do. I’m having some “nails on a chalkboard” kind of week with a co-worker who is basically OK, but sometimes SO annoying. Share your annoyances here!

    1. writelhd*

      calls and says it’s URGENT NEED HELP NOW, or leaves a VM or text that never explains what he wants, just says “URGENT”, for everything ever that he talks to you about. Completely ignores you like you don’t exist otherwise. When it’s either really not urgent, or clear that he’s procrastinated or otherwise failed to organize himself in ways that would have helped him avoid the situation being urgent now.

      But he was a jerk and toxic in many other ways too and is finally gone, and I’m so glad.

    2. Murphy*

      I send out a weekly newsletter type thing, and new co-worker sends me things to put in it (helpful and appreciated!) but they a) copy my boss and their boss on every email and b) send the info in a weird format which makes it take longer for me to format for the newsletter. I’ve asked them not to do the latter, and I think they listened one time.

    3. Amber Rose*

      AC#1: Once while I was on the phone he kept calling my name louder and louder until I put the customer on hold and snapped “I’m on the phone!” To which he said, “Oh, I thought so.” Once spilled a drink on my desk and used his butt to wipe it up. *shudder*

      AC#2: Constantly sings under her breath in that high pitched, wheezy sort of way people sing when they whisper-sing. Constantly talks about what a troll she is online. Lately has taken to talking to herself in weird accents and then laughing loudly at herself for being funny. Keeps showing me selfies that she thinks are hilarious but since I don’t enjoy photos, either taking them or looking at them, just makes me feel annoyed and interrupted.

      1. Seeking Second Childhood*

        For your first example, I challenge you now not to giggle the next time you see him. I have named him mr. Butt wipe.

    4. Bunny Girl*

      I work in a University and we have a faculty member that is really, really hateful and nasty to all of the staff, but she is really nice and chummy with all the faculty. One of the other staff members complained to the department head about what a complete b***ch this woman is, but he didn’t believe her because she is just “so kind” to everyone else. Plus she’s a “big deal” in her teeny tiny niche field so they don’t want to upset her by telling her that she can’t treat the staff the way she does. It’s a joy.

        1. Alianora*

          Same here. We had a summer instructor once who was super rude & dismissive to us administrative staff, but sucked up hard to the directors. Guess he didn’t realize that the directors actually valued the admins’ input on who should be invited back the next year.

    5. KR*

      Talks on the phone for most of the day on both the office line and cell phone (like, talking on office line, cell rings and says hold on, talks on cell phone, then immediatly resumes conversation on office line). Phone ringer is set to top volume and is the kind the lists who is calling in a robotic voice. Cell phone ringer is set to top volume. Apparently is not aware that the vibrate function exists or is advisable when you receive up to and more than 20 phone calls a day. Has a loud voice that can be heard throughout the office and through headphones. Even when they’re not here the desk phone rings all the time. Sometimes I disconnect it when they’re out of office because I’m so tired of hearing the robotic voice over and over.

        1. been there, done that*

          I am pretty sure I worked with a clone of your coworker some time back. I could hear them through the (not very thick but still) office wall between us. They didn’t do a lot of office phone work but if pretty nearly anything, good or bad, happened in their personal life, they would spend a good portion of the day calling everyone they knew to tell them about it, in detail. Over and over again.

          This was in the days before social media was quite so much of a thing; I wonder sometimes if this person posts everything on Fb these days or is still making endless phone calls.

    6. Knork*

      I have a very touch-y coworker. (Who bothers me for other reasons as well, but most things she can’t really help. She definitely could stop grabbing my arm and shoulder.)

      Last time she did it, my shoulder gave her a nasty static zap. Involuntary vengeance FTW!

    8. noahwynn*

      At my former job there was someone that had her office line forwarded to every device she owned: cell phone, tablet, and watch. When someone called her office line her desk phone would ring along with her laptop and all the personal devices, all at the same time at top volume. Drove everyone crazy. We were in cubicles too and she often wasn’t at her desk and even though it rang everywhere she still wouldn’t answer it. The phone system apps for cell phones and the computers was great if you were working remotely but no one else had it ring everything, all the time.

    9. Lepidoptera*

      Have an about-to-retire colleague with major senioritis* who just wanders around, chatting and wasting everyone’s time. He has almost nothing to do because his department completes projects in multi-year cycles, and they can’t restart him on another team since he would be leaving a third of the way into the cycle.

      He’s also said “eff it” to the dress code, and shuffles around constantly finger-combing his scraggly ponytail, thus shedding a trail of wiry hair behind him. Yesterday I had to get a paper towel to wipe off the pile of scruff he left on my desk as he leaned on it to talk my ear off for ten minutes.

      * Senioritis as in a disinterested graduate, not senioritis as in a gross nickname for dementia.

    10. Delta Delta*

      Would stand in my office entryway and eat crunchy food, regardless of what I was doing.

      How I did not throttle that person I have no idea.

    11. Alex in Marketing*

      OH do I have one.

      This lady (somewhere in her 60s) mothers everyone in long, elaborate explorations of what we should do. For everything. From small tasks at our job right down to what car insurance we should have. You cannot walk by her without getting an unwanted lecture and she is an extreme know-it-all on all topics. Her tone is always condescending and she covers the most ridiculous and inappropriate topics. She even told me it’s good that my boyfriend and I (whom I RARELY talk about but do have one picture of at my desk) seem like good friends, because we will need to like each other when the sex fades. My god.

      Not only is every interaction with her unpleasant, she also taps the younger men’s butts with her hands and makes dirty jokes aimed at them. She sings and hums to herself relentlessly throughout the day.

      And for all of the non-dirty jokes she makes, of which she has three, I have to listen to them all day long. It’s been 6 months and it’s really grinding on my gears.

      Examples:

      Literally anyone: “Hello! How are you?”
      Co-worker, *chuckles*, “Mischievous.”

      Literally anyone who walks by, no matter how many times they’ve already been by that day and who also says nothing.
      Co-worker, “Welcome to the WILD SIDE.”

      There are so many more issues with this person. But those are at the top of my list for today.

      1. valentine*

        she also taps the younger men’s butts with her hands and makes dirty jokes aimed at them.
        Appalling. Have you reported her? Why are you still there?

        1. Alex in Marketing*

          The people who are involved with the inappropriate touching are not willing to report her… I don’t see why they wouldn’t, but they just don’t want to.

          I’m still at my job because I don’t have to work closely with this lady. She sits near me in a row of cubicles, but she isn’t part of my team. Otherwise, my bosses are the best bosses I’ve ever had, I have more PTO and higher salary than the norm for my area, I’m working on a lot of high-visibility projects that I simply wouldn’t get to touch anywhere else, and overall am extremely happy with my job.

          They offered her a generous retirement package when I started about 6 months ago and she declined. I only have this knowledge because she loudly complained about this for two weeks straight to anyone who would listen.

    12. Seeking Second Childhood*

      Mike rumph of the day is a pair of managers who are so loud that their voices carry from 6 cubicles way when they are facing in the opposite direction from me. I tried to make a wisecrack about it, for your voice carries and was effectively told deal with it that’s the way it is. I’m so glad I don’t work near him anymore, and I really hope this new employee isn’t a reason for him to come over here very often.

      1. Seeking Second Childhood*

        “My grump” not “Mike rumph”… but it might make a good username.

    13. not tech support*

      Yes, I do know more about computers than you (this is not a high bar). Yes, I am happy to occasionally pass on computer-based workflow tweaks that I’ve figured out to the rest of the office, including you. I know a lot about computers, and it’s pretty normal that I end up taking on some minor programming or tech support tasks along the way just because I had to figure them out for my own workflow anyway.

      However, you were higher specifically to be the office computer-based llama grooming expert. I am not certified in llama-grooming, and am actually over here trying to to do a job that requires a lot of concentration in the field of computer-based yarn-spinning. I do need you to figure out how to groom your damn llamas so I can get less dirty yarn from them going forward, so in a larger sense it’s in my best interest to help you, but I am not in charge of tech support for Online Llama Things, Inc., and you should have realized that a job at a place with something like “online” or “computer-based” in the name would, in fact, expect a lot more in the way of technical literacy out of you than your previous job at Brushing Llamas In Person, LLC.

      This is not getting less irritating now that you’ve worked here for 3 years and still don’t seem to have spent any time learning how to remote-groom a llama or use our online llama-handling system correctly.

    15. Temporarily Anonymous*

      I can do this… ( not all the same person and all nice coworkers, not jerks)
      •Clips their nails onto the carpeted floor. All their nails, not just one or two.
      •Repeatedly calls and talks forever about problem I have no control over, can’t fix, and that has to do with their own work and then when I tell them to bring it up with the database builders/help desk, gets help desk to call *me* about it saying I’m the one having a problem.
      •Acts like they don’t know process I taught them (and re-taught several times when they forgot) because they want me to do their new coworker’s training for them and don’t like that task.
      •Asks me to reprint and scan a document which I had just that day provided them as a paper copy. They have their own scanner.
      Honestly I get along well with my colleagues but once in a while just wanna “Aaugh!”.

      1. Temporarily Anonymous*

        Oh and the worst one…
        • Leans over my shoulder while pushing down on the back of my desk chair to look at my monitor, even if I slide over so there is room to stand beside me.

        1. valentine*

          Repeatedly calls and talks forever
          If you can’t transfer them to your voicemail, hang up while you’re mid-sentence.

          pushing down on the back of my desk chair
          Slide over sideways or back the chair into a corner. If they still go for it, they need the support; tell them to find it elsewhere. (I’m assuming you’ve not told them to stop and they’re still at it.)

    16. veggiewolf*

      Submits help desk tickets to the wrong help desk, or that are empty, or that simply say “System isn’t working”.

    17. COW-ORKER*

      My co-worker does the following things:
      – Talks incessantly about her ex-husband who cheated on her and left her.
      – Calls ex-husband repeatedly for assistance on basic life tasks.
      – Asks for help with computer stuff that she should have long since learned, but seems to refuse to even try.
      – Gets pissed off because “I’m not being heard” when actually she is being heard, she’s just not being heeded because her ideas/thoughts are not always appropriate or correct for the situation (they rarely are in fact).
      – Believes herself to be an active listener, compassionate, etc. She is neither of those things.

  143. anon for this*

    One of my coworkers was abruptly fired this week, the usual “so and so isn’t here anymore” email, but the job is being replaced, so I know it’s a firing. And I know, I *know*, there are reasons I can’t ask why it happened, I can’t really know what was going on, etc. But I am bothered by the apparent circumstances, and it’s not the first time. He was moved into a new position two years ago as a chance to learn more and grow. I didn’t see everything of course, but I worked with him regularly enough to get a decent sense of his ability in that role, and my feelings were neutral to positive. In the past I have watched management fail to act to fire what I felt were very egregious and problematic employees in two other instances (I’m talking chronic, repeated, detrimental lying in one case, shouting and violently threatening another employee in another) so it’s always a shock to me when someone who seems not toxic and reasonably competent is actually fired. This isn’t even the first time this has happened with a person being trained into that particular position. So I have concerns that our training plan is not good enough for that position in particular, and that as a company we are too reluctant to address issues clearly and proactively as they come up, that we give people too vague of roles and don’t set or communicate clear expectations for performance, and don’t warn people when they’re not hitting whatever those expectations are. I have a pretty good rapport with the big boss, and with the fired employee’s boss, and I’m in management myself but don’t directly manage anyone. I know I can’t just ask why someone was fired…but is there a way I *could* broach my concerns? Something like, “I am concerned we have a pattern of not adequately training people and not addressing behavior or performance issues early enough, can you help reassure me that wasn’t the case here?”

    1. MayLou*

      I have no advice for you but as someone who was not fired, but let go during a six-month probation for not being “emotionally resilient” enough to do the job which I hadn’t had adequate training for before being flung into the deep end, I wish someone had done that for me. Sadly you probably don’t have enough influence to fix the pattern on your own but hopefully your big boss will.

    2. Havarti*

      Part of me wants to advise you to keep your nose out of this as no good will likely come from it. Your suggested sentence could be read as an accusation of management incompetency and that’s not a can of worms you want to open. If you did find out why he was fired, what does that solve? Is your job impacted by the position not being filled?

      Say he was fired for exposing himself or embezzling money (which is usually why the quiet ones get fired in my experience), then yay for management doing their job? Say he was fired because his boss hated his eyebrows. Well, that just means management is banana crackers and you want to essentially confront them about it? Given how worried you are about how you can’t ask what happened, I wouldn’t touch it and I’d take a look around and see how toxic this place it. Sounds like there might be some red flags here or at least yellow ones.

      1. valentine*

        The script is confrontational and wholly inappropriate because you don’t know what happened and they don’t answer to you. You can bring up the concerns separately, but even then, I think you’re missing a piece, possibly a very large one, because this is about managing people, which you don’t do.

  144. AnonyE*

    I’m interviewing for a job but the pay range is significantly less than current. I’m actually ok with a 10% cut in salary because I’d have more flexibility and way less stress, but if their offer is less than my minimum needed, what can I say that might help them raise their offer?

    1. Havarti*

      I’m not sure what you could say other than “I’m looking for salary in this range and I can’t accept less than X.” Is the pay range in line with the position/job title you’re interviewing for in your area? If yes, you may not be able to get more. If it’s lower, then you would have more room to negotiate. You could counter with a number slightly higher than your minimum. If they stick to their guns though, are you willing to walk away?

      1. AnonyE*

        Yes, thanks. Unfortunately I’d have to walk away just because I am only looking for enough to pay my bills. Can’t go into the hole on work lol.

        1. valentine*

          I am only looking for enough to pay my bills.
          I hope a “not” is missing here, because this is how you go into the hole.

    2. Gene Parmesan*

      I’m in a very similar boat. I interviewed yesterday and it went well, and I’m pretty sure I’m going to get an offer. I’ve seen two versions of the job ad, and one doesn’t list a salary range, and the other lists one that is lower than what I’m currently making. I was encouraged to apply by an acquaintance/former classmate who is on the search committee, and she has indicated that they have been having trouble filling it, and I’m a slam dunk for the background and a specific high-level skill they are looking for, which I believe gives me some bargaining power.

      Here’s my approach. If I get an offer (assuming it’s too low), I’m going to thank the hiring manager and express my enthusiasm for the job. Then I’ll say something like, “Do you have any flexibility on the salary? I’m currently making $X and I was hoping to stay close to that.” Depending on the reply, I might follow up with something like, “I believe that something close to $X would be an appropriate range for the opening, given your need for Y skill and my background in this.”

      I’m going to be willing to meet somewhere in the middle because this job offers better benefits, a much shorter commute, and better long-term stability. I’m willing to take a pay cut for those reasons. But I’m going to start with giving my current salary and see where it goes from there.

  145. Tupac Coachella*

    What are your experiences with the death of a coworker? I lost a coworker last week after a long illness, and a former coworker passed away unexpectedly this week. Both were people that I liked very much and had positive relationships with, but we weren’t friends outside of work. I’m having a hard time with it, but I also feel kind of like I don’t have a “right” to struggle because I didn’t know them that well. It sounds silly to say “my coworker died and I’m really, really sad about it” when we didn’t have a relationship at all outside of work…but I AM really sad about it! It feels like there’s no good way to grieve a coworker. I don’t want to show up at the viewing and add to the family’s grief by coming across as a vulture, but they’re both people I cared about and respected, so it’s hard to shake it off. It doesn’t help that the one who was ill died of the same illness that a family member was recently diagnosed with. I’m not sure what kind of advice I’m hoping for, but I figured you all might have some experience to share and at minimum confirm that I’m not overdramatic or crazy to be so impacted by this.

    1. writelhd*

      I think it’s totally fair to be sad about it, and doesn’t sound silly at all. This was a human being you had legitimate interaction with. It’s totally OK to be sad!

      The first year I was in the working world, one of my coworkers died unexpectedly. It was hard to deal with, especially because he ran a department and left no notes about what he did and there was a scramble and knowledge gap and it was crazy stressful for me to deal with that…but also…it was just sad! Really sad! Some of his employees cried when they heard, and that was ok for all! The big boss got everyone together to share memories of working with him. A group of is went to the funeral, and yes, it was mostly his family there, and it made me realize we didn’t know his family at all…but I would like to think that seeing so much support from the community was some comfort to him. Even now, years later, every now and then somebody who had worked with him will bring up his memory and it’s a good bittersweet moment.

    2. Tired*

      You’re not overdramatic or crazy. Death impacts us all in different ways. In regards to not wanting to go the viewing, I would suggest going. When a family is grieving, it’s comforting to see the impact their deceased relative had on others. Even if you were “just coworkers,” it still means a lot to know that coworkers liked them enough to attend the funeral. Of course, if you don’t feel like you can make it through emotionally, then don’t attend, but I wouldn’t worry about feeling like a vulture.

      1. Overeducated*

        I agree with this. As a family member at a recent funeral, I thought it was really nice how coworkers and neighbors came to share their memories at the viewing. Afterward the family will have a lot of time on their own, but I think viewings are meant to be more communal events where people can be with others who are also grieving, maybe it would be a little comforting for you as well. I’m sorry for your two recent losses. Your grief is real and it matters too.

    3. H.C.*

      I’ve had this happen about a decade ago; overall, I felt pangs of sadness but mostly numb & in disbelief (moreso when my colleagues and I were packing up her personal belongings in the office to give to her next of kin). I think we also made it awkward for the person who was hired in a hurry to fill her place, as we kept referencing her untimely demise during the hiring process & when we were transitioning her projects to him.

    4. KR*

      Totally fair to be sad about it. We lost a coworker semi recently and just the other week I had a conversation with my coworker and we were talking about how much we missed them.

    5. Amber Rose*

      My boss at old job died abruptly about a year after I started working when his plane crashed. I wasn’t particularly close to him or anything, I respected him but he wasn’t around a whole lot. I went through the same thing though, feeling like I didn’t deserve to be sad because everyone else had known him longer.

      In the end though, death is sad and it’s OK to be sad about it. I went to the funeral to show my support for the others at least, and his family seemed grateful for everyone who was there.

      The hardest part for me was fielding all the phone calls from his friends and people in the industry who’d known him forever when they would frequently break down over the phone, and how my coworkers would occasionally start to cry. It made me cry more than once, just being reminded what an important figure he was for so many people and that we wouldn’t hear his weird stories anymore.

    6. Kali*

      At my grandmother’s funeral, a barmaid from the local pub came. My nan was a bit of a lush, and she’d seen her quite often, especially since she died very suddenly, rather than from a long illness. No-one batted an eyelid at her being there, so I doubt most people will be surprised or think it odd if a coworker attended a funeral.

      I’ve not had a coworker die, but, a few years ago, one of my classmates died very suddenly over Christmas. Our teacher attended the funeral. For context, this was a class for mature students getting back into education. We were all in our twenties or thirties, rather than being children, so I think it’s slightly comparable.

    7. Havarti*

      I’m sorry for your loss. Being co-workers is still a relationship though. You spend 8 hours a day, 5 days a week, 52 weeks a year with these people. That’s a lot of time! When people die, their co-workers go to their wakes and funerals all the time (at least where I live) so it isn’t being a vulture to show up and pay your respects if you want to. When my old boss died, most of the people packed into the church were from our company – that’s how much we liked the guy.

    8. Daughter of Ada and Grace*

      Emotions – including (especially?) grief – aren’t right or wrong, they just are. If you’re sad and grieving, then you’re sad and grieving. And you probably aren’t the only coworker/former coworker feeling this way.

      One of my coworkers passed away last summer. He’d worked here for decades, and was an all-around stellar example of a human being. Everyone in the office was grieving, even those of us who didn’t work closely with him. I’m pretty sure everyone went to either the visitation or the funeral – many of us went to both. We paid our condolences to the family (“I’m sorry for your loss” may be a platitude, but it works really well in this situation), and shared fond memories with other coworkers/former coworkers.

      I think it would be entirely appropriate for you to go. Unless you plan on making the viewing/funeral all about you and your relationship to your coworker (which seems unlikely from your question), you won’t be viewed as a vulture. It’s much more likely your presence will be an indication of how well your coworker was viewed in their professional life.

    9. Tathren*

      I had a coworker die about a year ago. She had been sick (we found out after the fact that she had cancer) and had taken some time off, but we were told to expect her back at work in the next week or so. But she had a sudden heart attack and died without ever coming back to the office. I didn’t go to the wake, for a variety of personal reasons, but some other coworkers did.

      In my experience with being the family member of the deceased, it’s never been a problem when coworkers come to the viewing or funeral. It’s a nice show of support and a reminder of how many people knew and liked my relative. If you want to go to the viewing, I think you’re fine to do so. But if you don’t feel comfortable going to the viewing, would you feel more comfortable sending flowers? Or making a donation if the family has requested that instead? It might help with your grieving process by feeling that you’re still “doing” something.

    10. OtterB*

      What everyone else has said. It’s not surprising that you’d be sad, and it’s not going to seem like being a vulture if you go to the viewing. Is there a coworker that would like to go with you? Think of a characteristic of the coworker that you can mention to family along with the “so sorry.” (She was really welcoming when I was new, his holiday ties were the greatest, I always enjoyed hearing about his vacations, etc.)

      My cousin died unexpectedly last year. The funeral was in his home town but there was also a gathering in the city where he had worked for years. I went to that one, and enjoyed talking to his coworkers. It was a side of him I’d never seen.

      I also suspect that you’re feeling it extra strong because of having a family member diagnosed with the same illness. It’s still not weird. Just be sure not to dump that on the family if you go to the viewing; that goes to one of your own friends or support people.

    11. Delta Delta*

      It is totally ok and normal to be sad when you learned your coworkers died. You may not have been friends outside of work, but they were people who were in your life and who you liked. We spend a lot of time with people at work and they become a part of that part of our lives.

      I think it would be just fine to go to the viewing. There might be nice stories you can share about your friend, that the family might not know about. And having been a part of many funerals, unfortunately, it is sometimes nice when someone sort of unexpected appears and says something nice. Even if it’s to say, “Jane was always so kind, she often offered to warm up my coffee,” or something like that, it can be nice.

    12. Seeking Second Childhood*

      It’s not ghoulish to attended memorials for co-workers or family members of coworkers. I wouldn’t go to the burial itself unless we were close, but something announced in the obit is intended for close friends and not so close neighbors&co-workers.
      New Yorker now living in CT, in case there’s regionalisms.

    13. bunniferous*

      I have lost a coworker and then a boss, both at the same job. You do NOT have to be friends with someone outside of work to be sad and grieve their death. And as far as wakes and funerals go those are for those mourning the death which means you should go if you want to. Those of us in the working world spend as many hours, and in some cases more, with our coworkers as we do family and it would be strange indeed if we were not allowed to mourn them when they die.

      The coworker died of a drug overdose. The whole store shut down and we went to her funeral. Several years later our boss died. We all went to the wake, and we closed the store and went to her funeral. One of our coworkers did a lovely thing and bought lunch for us afterward.

      The hardest thing for me is for weeks and months afterward I would answer the phone and people would be asking for the deceased boss. She was very well known in our community but not all the vendors, etc got the memo. More than once I wound up comforting the person on the other end (I get it, how horrible would it be to call for someone and find out they died? )

      I seem to recall having to argue with a telemarketer or vendor regarding her death but I am hoping I am misremembering because, how horribly awkward and painful would that be? Probably I passed that call to a manager before I went through the phone and slapped them into next week. Our tempers were a little short.

      In any case, sending hugs if you want them. This is hard. Death is never easy, and neither is grieving.

  146. DBCooper*

    Here’s my dilemma:

    I’ve spent a lot of years in a job I dislike, under a boss I despise, in a dying company, in an industry that I don’t enjoy. I’ll skip all the reasons why that is, but add that I’m not alone — there is a TON of turnover in my role (especially under this manager), and literally half of our new hires burn out and leave within a year. Even my family senses my unhappiness to the point of suggesting I should just quit.

    I could financially afford to give notice and walk away, take a little time to detox from this miserable place, then start fresh applying in other industries. But I’m afraid of this option, due to the “why did you leave your last role?” interview questions, and the uncertainty of it.

    So I’ve been applying elsewhere. I’m currently in the interview process with a company where some former colleagues have safely landed. They vouch that it’s a much better place to be, and everything I see and read says this company is GROWING and not dying like my current employer, but my problem? Same industry. Same varying work hours. And I know (thanks Myers-Briggs) I’m just not suited for this kind of work. Even if I was, my current situation has killed my ambition to lead teams and has me wanting to be a follower instead of a leader for a while anyway.

    Knowing all this, should I continue pursuing a job I probably won’t love at a company I won’t hate just to escape my terrible job/boss? Should I just walk away if this one doesn’t work out (although there’s a chance I could get severance to leave soon if the company continues its current path)?

    And most important to me… I feel like it’s probably OK to have a season of my career that I simply don’t want to be a leader. But having always been the day-to-day leader/resource/coach/mentor, I can’t shake the feeling I’d be slacking or wasting my skills if my in a leadership position. Thoughts?

    1. Bunny Girl*

      If I were in your situation personally, I would continue to pursue this other role. You’re unhappy and that could be determining how you feel about this industry. Then give it about a year, and if you still hate it, then you won’t have this panicked OH MY GOD I NEED TO LEAVE feeling because you might not completely hate where you are.

      1. Seeking Second Childhood*

        And once you’re in better company you can look for internal transfers. Maybe they have a technical specialist track for example.

    2. OtterB*

      I can’t really speak to whether you should jump to better-company-but-still-wrong-role. I’m inclined to say that if you’re not enthusiastic about the job, and you’re not desperate, then you probably shouldn’t take it. But Bunny has a good point that in a better organization you might like the role more.

      To your other point, it is definitely OK to have a season of your career when you are not in a formal leadership role. Don’t think of it as being a follower, think of it as being an individual contributor. That doesn’t mean you can’t be a leader in other ways. I don’t know your field, but you can provide expertise in a specific area, represent your group on task forces, be an ambassador of your organization in regional or national organizations, all without being a supervisor/manager/project leader. And if you need to detox from the current job by just doing your job and then going home for a while, there’s nothing wrong with that either. It doesn’t mean you’ve permanently stepped off the road to success.

      1. Positive Reframer*

        +1

        You can absolutely be a leader without leading people. I think there was a similar post a week or so ago about someone who felt like they couldn’t move to an independent contributor role because it would be a sign of failure. Because so often a career track pushes people who are high performers into managing other performers which is a different skill set. Sometimes that works out, many times it doesn’t.

        It sounds like DBCooper you might be putting some of your identity and who you are into your title which is pretty common but ultimately not good for you, at least if you ever want to retire lol

  147. LizB*

    Our charging cables for various tablets and important pieces of work equipment keep getting broken or disappearing (and being replaced by crappy off-brand taped-up ones clearly brought from home), so now I’ve had to make a rule that nobody gets to charge their personal devices at work. I hate treating my staff like children, but it’s impossible to tell who has been messing up or absconding with our chargers, so my boss basically ordered me to make a blanket rule. Bleh.

    1. Cloudy with sunny breaks*

      This sucks. Deploy the label maker – property of teapots Ltd – and some fun duct tape to any new cords. Because you know people will break the charging rule, and then explain why we can’t have nice things.

  148. Tongue Cluckin' Grammarian*

    My boss is really fixed on buying a list of emails, so we can send out blast emails advertising our services.
    We’re a laboratory, and the target would be doctors. We’re also a small, private company.

    Has anybody else see success with this endeavor in healthcare? Have you gotten new clients by buying a list of emails and essentially cold-calling?

    1. Psyche*

      One thing you want to be careful of is your email address could end up listed as spam. Sending out bulk emails can get caught in filters and people who don’t want the emails can manually mark it, which if that happens enough your emails to other people will be caught as well.

    2. Dr. Anonymous*

      Are you in a niche market of special services? If patients have to come to you for draws, I’d think local personal cold calling would be better. If you do specialized labs, wouldn’t you get more business by reaching out to large medical groups to send you stuff they don’t do in house? Or are you looking to get private practice docs to send all their routine stuff to you? I’m just wondering how you can buy a useful mailing list. That kind of stuff goes right to my garbage because we have in house lab services and the one specialized lab I wanted to consider would have required going through a legal and contracting review practice and…just no.

      1. Tongue Cluckin' Grammarian*

        Thanks for the affirmation! I am against this plan 100%, but I have to be careful about how I couch it with my boss or she’ll just blow me off.

    3. Someone Else*

      If you don’t have either a double-opt in from the people who’d be receiving this or an established business relationship with them, this would be spam. It doesn’t mean people don’t do it or have success with it of course, but if you’re looking to push back, point boss at the CAN-SPAM act.

      1. Tongue Cluckin' Grammarian*

        Thank you! I had forgotten the CAN-SPAM act. Hard facts are super useful to push back against my boss with.

  149. savannnah*

    After a year of moving to a new city and finding that my pervious job field just does not exist here, I’ve started a consulting business in the hopes of picking up clients nationwide. The work is applicable to both healthcare education and hospitals but traditionally very much in the world of academia. The transition from university setting to consulting is not a smooth one and I’m curious if anyone has navigated this previously? There are tons of forums dedicated to helping out answer questions institution to institution but I’m not allowed to contact anyone from those forums to offer my help, with a few exceptions. Hospitals are very used to hiring consultants however for lots of different types of work but are just coming around to paying for this type of work.

  150. Early 30's Life Crisis*

    I have a question about interviews, offers and timing.
    I’m in the middle of interviewing for two separate jobs, but Job A’s recruitment process had started much earlier than Job B’s job posting. I have a second interview on Sunday for Job A, but I just came out of my first interview in Job B.
    The problem is that I would much prefer Job B and it looks like I have a very, very good shot at getting into the second interview, but it won’t be for another week.
    Without going into background details, Job A is like 95% guaranteed but it’s not something I’m as enthusiastic about as Job B.
    IF I get an offer from Job A in the next while, what should I say to basically buy more time until I hear back from Job B without compromising the offer?

    1. Lucy*

      How long is the B process likely to be – days or weeks? If days, could you say something like “I’m considering a few possibilities at the moment but I’m very keen on your position for /reasons/. Could you let me know more about /hours, benefits, hierarchy/, and when do you need an answer?”

      1. Early 30's Life Crisis*

        They told me that they had a few more candidates to interview, but that there is a second interview round with the CEO and the COO (if I remember right), and I should hear back from them by the end of next week.
        It’s not the first time I’ve been stuck in a timing issue and I ended up without a job last time, so I’m really nervous and looking for more appropriate scripts to use!
        I think I’ll reach out to them after Job A’s second interview to see how it goes first… Thanks for the suggestion!

  151. Ra94*

    Updates from toxic temporary job (where I’ve decided to stay put til September, because I have enough travel breaks planned to keep me sane til then):
    My boss yesterday, complaining about a hearing that didn’t go her way, starts the story with, “So we walk in, and the judge is an African-American. Now, I have nothing against them, but he was really a terrible judge.”
    My eyebrows pretty much left my face at that point. I mean, I guess this isn’t as bad as her openly using the n-word in the office (which my ex-colleague witnessed but I never saw in person), but holy racism, Batman.

  152. MayLou*

    So, I’m interested. Reading this site and others has given me the impression that the application process for jobs (at least in the public sector/charities; I’ve never worked in the private sector except a stint in a supermarket as a teenager) is very different in the USA than in the UK.

    I’d like to hear about the standard process for people in different sectors and different countries, and what you feel are the advantages/disadvantages of these processes.

    For my part:
    *Public sector (county council roles or school support) and charity sector (local charities working with families/children)
    *Advert is posted online with a job description, person specification and either an online application form or a downloadable one. Salary range is specified, and usually conforms to a sector-wide payscale
    *Application is completed, making reference to the essential and desirable criteria in the person specification, and submitted by the deadline. No CV/resume is included; sometimes a covering letter/email is requested, sometimes not
    *Shortlisted applicants are contacted with an interview time and date, which they are asked to confirm, almost always by email
    *Interview takes place with a set of pre-determined behavioural questions, the same ones for every interviewee, and the interviewers (normally two) make notes of the responses
    *Responses are graded against the criteria and the highest-scoring applicant is contacted and offered a job. In my experience, salary isn’t discussed because it’s assumed that the advertised salary range applies, starting at the bottom and progressing up the scale over time

    My impression is that the main differences in the USA are that there are often more interviews, questions aren’t necessarily identical for each candidate, and there’s not always a publicly-advertised person specification spelling out the criteria by which interviewees are assessed. Is that true, or am I missing nuances?

    I do think that publicising the salary and the person specification are both really valuable. I understand the equal opportunities argument for standard interview questions, but it feels like the process doesn’t necessarily guarantee that the candidate who is offered the job is necessarily the best person for that role, just that they’re the best at behavioural interview questions. Where two candidates scored the same on the interview responses, previous experience in a similar role is often a deciding factor (I’ve had this be the reason I didn’t get the job twice in the last year) but it isn’t considered prior to that point.

    Sidenote: I’ve got an interview next Thursday for a role where I am confident I meet all the essential and desirable criteria, AND I have prior experience in the role elsewhere, which hopefully means I stand a higher chance of getting this job than for any of my previous interviews. I really hope so because I’m so sick of being self-(under)employed.

    1. Lucy*

      I’m also UK and recognise your description, but only for public sector jobs. Salary ranges are indeed useful but that field usually reads “competitive” (which means “as little as we can pretend everyone else pays”) or “generous” (which means the same as the above plus BUPA). Always a CV plus cover. Interviews go where they go especially second round, although there will likely be a few core questions they ask everyone in the first round relating to immediate suitability. I’ve never had more than two rounds (legal field – tech spouse has had phone plus two). The appointment is largely on feel and fit.

      There’s obvious problems with that, relating to subconscious bias and perpetuating hiring “people who are like us”.

    2. Maya Elena*

      General US corporate (private entities across several industries – not tech or finance): in my experience, salary is often not posted and there is definitely no rubric for assessment published. Sometimes “minimum qualifications” are listed, but in the private market, even those might be negotiable, depending on what they are. (“Must have Relevant Occupational License is probably non-negotiable. “MINIMUM 3 years’ experience with analysis” is probably negotiable.) Government hiring appears much more rigid, but I have little experience with government job searches (I filled out one application once).

      I agree that the “best” person doesn’t often get the job under a very flexible and subjective process, but you don’t necessarily want a strict, uniform meritocracy system-wide for all employers (though it makes sense in government). There are trade-offs between “objective/rules-based” and “flexible/adaptable/unusual circumstances”, and it’s probably better that economy-wide you have the whole range of arrangements rather than one model.

  153. Happy Sharpie*

    A few months ago I was reading through a comment thread on ask a manager regarding having your degree listed in your email signature. I was horrified to learn that this is a no-no and immediately took mine out. However, now I’m wondering if I should add it back in. I work at a small liberal arts university where there’s a power differential between faculty and staff (I’m the latter). Though I’m a director for a specific area, I often get email pushback of “I have a PhD so you can’t possibly be right in what you’re requesting” from faculty. My degree is a terminal masters degree in my area and I’m wondering if I add it back in that it might give me a modicum of protection against this type of thing. Personally, I know that you don’t have to have a degree to be good at what you do. Staff that have been at the university for 40 years, are good and knowledgeable about what they do but started right out of high school also get pushback.

    1. Anonymous Educator*

      I can see a case for it in academia. In other contexts, it’d likely come across as pretentious.

    2. downtown funk*

      Someone who’s being rude about you not having a PhD probably won’t be nicer to you once they know you have a masters.

    3. Psyche*

      Has there been an uptick in the rude emails since you took it out? If so, you could add it back in and see what happens. It isn’t uncommon in academia to have your degree listed. But in my experience, rude people are going to be rude.

    4. fposte*

      Eh. On the one hand, it’s more relevant in academia (some of our student affairs staff do include graduate degrees in their .sigs), but on the other, people with PhDs who are looking down on you for not having a degree aren’t likely to be swayed by a master’s. Try it and see if it helps.

    6. situation specific*

      Yeah, unless you’re in academia, doing something where it’s especially relevant, I’d skip. For context, I have multiple degrees in llama wrangling, but currently work the llama ticket booth. Doubt anyone would care.

      By comparison, just got an email from recent grad wrangler using the undergrad and thought it was hilariously precious. Don’t use it unless the situation specifically calls for it.

  154. Kobayashi*

    How important would you say cover letters are these days? I come from both the perspective of someone in HR who hires, and someone who has applied to jobs. I have read the wonderful posts on here about cover letters. Practically, though, from our perspective, it seems the resumes are really the primary thing we scan. We’ll read a cover letter, and it certainly might tip the balance into having us interview someone we were on the fence about, but if we get a strong resume without a cover letter, we hop on bringing that candidate in for an interview.

    1. Anonymous Educator*

      I was shocked to discover, from friends working in tech, that a lot of tech folks don’t submit cover letters at all, and apparently that hasn’t hurt their chances of getting a job. I’ve almost always worked in schools, and getting a résumé without a cover letter (unless you know the hiring manager personally already or have some other way of introduction that doesn’t involve “gumption”) would pretty much throw you into the no-hire pile.

      That said, I do think people tend to focus more on the actual experience than the cover letter, which makes sense. The experience often takes years to build up. The cover letter probably took anywhere from two minutes to an hour to write.

      My workplace is about to make a hire for someone who had egregious typos in the cover letter. But then so did all the other candidates for that position (it’s not an English teacher or copy editor position, by the way).

      Honestly, I kind of just want to know what the person’s deal is: why are you applying for this position and what specifically in your past experience would you bring to our org? It doesn’t have to be fancy. I’d be fine if it was just a few sentences instead of several paragraphs (but that could just be me).

      1. otherOther*

        I’m in tech and I’ve seen a number of application systems which don’t even allow for cover letters.

        It might matter more for the more senior positions– but for entry level people, they want to see what you’ve done from your resume or potentially an online portfolio.

    2. Insignificant*

      I’m wondering about this too. The first two times I was job hunting, I spent a lot of time customizing each cover letter and was complimented on them a lot. For my current job hunt (which has been very very long), I just have a generic cover letter where I literally copy/paste the position title into two spots and edit one sentence to describe why I’m interested in the job. Hypothetically I could customize each cover letter further, but all the jobs I apply to require the same skills and I can’t find any motivation to put more effort in. I don’t get compliments on my cover letter anymore, but I’ve gone to several interviews and done a ton of phone screenings, so I’m assuming my cover letter is “good enough” and it’s the post application stage that is a problem for me. Or maybe my cover letter was strong enough to tip the balance in situations where they were on the fence about me, and then they’re not interested once they confirm I don’t have the specific degree or experience they want.

    3. so many resumes, so little time*

      I work in publishing, and when I hire at entry level, I can receive literally hundreds of resumes, many of which are from recently-graduated English majors with little work experience. For those jobs, cover letters let us get a much better sense of the person and that helps us decide who to interview.

  155. Rippley*

    Anybody have advice for working full time with chronic illness?

    I’ve had chronic migraines for 25+ years, but in the past 2 years I’ve developed other chronic pain/illness symptoms. I’m working with several doctors to get a diagnosis, and in the meantime I’m trying to figure out how to manage my symptoms and work full time and have time with my family. Quitting work or cutting back hours is not an option. Besides, I enjoy my job and I need time away from the house.

    Any tips would be greatly appreciated!

    1. Havarti*

      Since we don’t know what your symptoms are (and you’re not required to disclose them!), I don’t know that we can give you specific tips that would work for you beyond the general getting enough rest, staying hydrated, etc.

      Regarding your job, is your boss aware and sympathetic enough to work with you on this? Is intermittent FMLA an option for when you feel really bad while you get your diagnosis sorted out? Can you maybe pace yourself and build in mini-breaks during the day? Is working from home every now and then an option?

      When you say time with your family, do you mean hanging out or cooking, cleaning, laundry? If the latter, can you outsource some of those tasks? Are other family members able to pitch in? Maybe hire cleaners etc. A person only has so much energy and someone with chronic illness even less so.

    2. Wishing You Well*

      Try looking for advice on illness-specific websites or Facebook groups addressing your illness. Ask your doctor for support group/advice sources. Check confidentiality rules before participating. Become educated on accommodation laws and disability qualifications in your area. You might think you’ll never go on disability, but you need that information regardless.
      Really wishing you success.

    3. MayLou*

      If you have a limited amount of energy, you have to decide what slides and what stays. If it really isn’t possible to reduce your hours, I’d try and work in a couple of rest breaks each day – even just fifteen minutes of lying down in a quiet room. Regular gentle stretches are also really good. I have a pacing calendar and a set of magnets for planning my day (colour-coded based on how easy or hard each activity will be for me that day, given my symptoms at the time) which I bought from Hannah Ensor’s website. She’s got lots of great stuff for chronic illness and disabilities, including things for telling other people about your limitations and needs.

      Mind you, I’m dreadful at following this advice for myself! I’ve recovered enough from my condition (CFS/ME) that I don’t need the rest breaks very often any more, but I definitely still need to do the stretches to manage pain, and I just… don’t. And then I wonder why I’m moving like a rusted robot.

  156. porknbeans*

    Hi, everyone! Hoping to get some advice/perspective on a meeting I just had.

    I’m afraid that someone might see this column, so, unfortunately, I need to keep the details pretty bare bones. Basically, my bosses had a check-in meeting with me last week (the first one since December) and said that I had been more “quiet and sheepish” lately, and asked, “Are we good?”. I was totally taken aback and said that everything was good.

    Well, this week, they called me into their office for a surprise meeting that ended up being another check-in. Basically, they asked me “Are we good?” again, to which I said yes. There was an awkward pause, and then one of them said, “Honestly, porknbeans, we don’t feel that way. We don’t feel that everything is good on your end. So, take some time to think about it. You’ve changed within the past 2 months. We just want the old porknbeans back.”

    I have no idea what to make of this. Yes, I have been job-searching, so I’m wondering if they somehow found my resume or applications or SOMETHING online? I’m just flabbergasted because I get along really well with everyone here, and don’t work with my bosses directly a lot, so I don’t know how they came to this conclusion when they’ve hardly been around me. I’m just really taken aback and confused. In fact, the first thing I did when walking into the surprise meeting was compliment my boss on her makeup! To me, it seems like they’re having some sort of issue with my attitude rather than my quality of work.

      1. porknbeans*

        I wanted to SO badly during the meeting, but I didn’t trust myself to phrase it in a professional/polite way. So, I mostly just sat there and nodded. I didn’t get upset or anything because internally, I was just like :O

        1. Psyche*

          I think it is perfectly reasonable to tell them “I honestly don’t know what you are talking about. Everything is fine. Can you give me examples of how I have been differently lately because I am very confused.” If they had found out you are job searching and it concerns them, I really don’t see why they wouldn’t just say that.

    2. Rey*

      It sounds like now you’ve had some time to recover from the initial shock or surprise of the surprise meetings, and need more clarity from them about their concerns. So follow up with them instead of waiting for more surprise meetings. “This is the second time you’ve brought up a change in me. Are you concerned about my work quality and output? Can you give me specific feedback about what is different? I want to get on the same page with you so I can address your concerns.” If they keep calling these meetings, they should have very concrete comments for you (or it will highlight that they are grasping at straws).

    3. AvonLady Barksdale*

      OK, I hate that crap. You said things are fine, yet they “don’t believe you.” So… what are you supposed to say? What if it were a personal issue or a health thing that you wanted to keep private? What if your relationship was ending? “You’ve changed” is such bs.

      My first inkling is they want to fire you but they want you to quit first. But that might just be projection on my part.

      Tell them you’re just less enthusiastic during the winter and you’re sure you’ll perk up in a few weeks when you get more sun.

      1. porknbeans*

        CheeryO’s situation below is eerily similar to mine. Plus, at the most basic level, I just don’t agree with what management is doing ethics-wise and values-wise.
        I’m not happy with my salary, either. Just from reading AAM, I know it’s SO important to advocate for yourself, but my attempts have been futile for excuses that I wish I could share.

    5. CheeryO*

      Ugh, I hate stupid mind games like that. My last job pulled that line on me – yes, I was a little more reserved than I had been during my interview and when I first started, because I was demoralized by the terrible work environment and was mentally planning my escape. I was still friendly and professional, but I apparently wasn’t living up to some nebulous idea of how they thought I should act (read: like a super-invested senior staff person, despite being a newbie who was being paid and treated like crap). Honestly, it’s a form of bullying. I agree that you should push for clarification if it comes up again. My guess is that you’ll never get a concrete answer other than “you’re just not ~yourself~.”

      1. porknbeans*

        This seems like my situation to a T with the work environment and such!
        IF I’m being quieter or reserved — which I don’t think I am, or trying to be — it’s simply because I’m mulling work-related items over in my head.
        I appreciate the input!

  157. Teecha B.*

    I interviewed for my dream job, and was very nervous when I made it to the reference stage. Sure enough, my prospective employers called me and said that Former Supervisor spoke pretty negatively about me and wondered if I could provide some context because “Nothing he said sounded like you. We’ve met you, and we talked to other references for you and that all painted a consistent picture.” I talked a little about the situation, the disfunction the organization (fortunately therein someone on their staff who also worked for this failing organization so they had corroboration for what I was saying) and they were satisfied enough and offered me the job.

    I waited until my contract was negotiated and signed, and then wrote back to my Supervisor/Bad Reference. I let him know that I had been offered a job I was very excited about. I did thank him for taking the time to respond to reference calls and said “you are officially off the hook as a reference for me!” I said some other nice things about the work he does (which I honestly meant–I think he’s terrific at his job.) Although I think it was a scuzzball move to try to hurt my prospects, he’s also a “NICE GUY” type who probably thought it was Really Important to be ruthlessly and completely honest about any moments that were less than stellar. I doubt he thought he was doing something other than what he had said he’d do. It was important to me to simply kind, thank him, and walk away.

    …So I was shocked when he wrote back, full of excitement– “where was this new job? Please don’t say goodbye forever! Let’s keep in touch! I want to hear all about how you’re doing!”

    He’s such a NICE GUY. But I’m not going to write him back.

    1. Teecha B.*

      * Whoops- I cut off the top of my comment.

      The beginning of the story is me asking Former Supervisor if he would be able to provide a positive reference, and he said “Absolutely! I’d be happy to do anything to help you out!”

  158. SufjanFan*

    Can someone help me frame some language with a particularly grumpy/borderline rude coworker? I work for an ecommerce teapot company in their marketing department. We don’t have a budget for models for our teapot photography so my other coworkers and I will model with the teapots — mostly just hands with the teapots. I’m not a professional model by ANY stretch of the means, but I’m happy to help out. My coworker Cordelia oversees the photo shoots (we’re both managers — Cordelia manages the creative team; I manage the marketing team). Whenever I help out, Cordelia always points out my flaws in my body — typically in my hands, wrists, arms, fingers, sometimes the clothing I wear. It ranges from “your nail polish color is gross” to “that shirt you’re wearing is ruining the shot.” I almost lost it when, most recently, she repeated over and over: “Your thumbs are SO weird. What is WRONG with your thumbs?” I responded that this was the last time I would do a photo shoot with her, and she got even more pissy, saying it’s not her fault that my thumbs are an issue. We have photo shoots throughout the month. Can someone help me respond to her negative comments in a way that won’t get me fired (lol)?

    1. Rey*

      Firstly, this is so gross and I’m so sorry that you have to deal with this. Outside of the photo shoots, I would tell her that you’ve chosen not to participate in the photo shoots. When she presses, just state that you can’t change your thumbs, and this is the easiest solution for everyone. When she brings it up after that, just state “there’s nothing more to talk about this” and change the topic. In my organization, I would probably loop in my supervisor so that they have my side of the story before Cordelia complained to them directly.

      1. SufjanFan*

        Thanks! I was back & forth on going to my supervisor. Cordelia and I report to the same person and tbh I didn’t want to give Cordelia an excuse to be even grumpier, but I also want her behavior to stop.

    2. Psyche*

      “I do not want to participate in any more photo shoots unless you can refrain from making unproductive comments about my body. I am not a hand model and if that is a problem you need to find someone else.”

    3. Argh!*

      “My DNA made my thumbs this way. What made you an arsehole?”

      (I would never say that but I it’s what I thought of when I read your comment)

    4. fposte*

      Ew. I don’t think that’s borderline rude; that’s just rude. A few approaches come to mind. “Cordelia, I’m happy to help, but I’m going to ask you to keep personal remarks about my body and presentation to yourself. Can you do that?” “Cordelia, it sounds like you absolutely hate this assignment–every time we do it, all I hear is complaints about the things that are wrong. Do you want backup in asking Boss if somebody else can do it?” “Dude, are you really trashing your volunteer model? What do you think that will improve?”

      And all of these are real, not rhetorical questions–if she doesn’t say anything, you can push the question again. “I really need to know if you can do that/want that/have a goal here when you trash me.”

    5. Knork*

      “This is no longer something I’m going to be doing.”

      If you want to be a little more lighthearted (but also call out her behavior): “my hands have taken a lot of your criticism, and now they’re camera-shy.”

      PS: I don’t know how you could call this borderline rude. This woman sounds like a nightmare.

      1. SufjanFan*

        I guess I said borderline because she’s like this to a lot of people, but no one else seems to mind? And I’m like, am I crazy because I don’t want my thumbs to be criticized????

        1. Knork*

          You’re definitely not crazy. Even if something like that wouldn’t make me feel self-conscious, it would 100% make me want to tell her to STFU.

  159. Maiu*

    I currently work as an office manager; I’ve been in this role for a year and a half. I really enjoy the team and am starting to think about how I can grow in the company. Recently, I’ve been helping out a bit in the data analytics team in my company due to a very strong Excel background and their team being stretched thin and looking to grow. I love the work and I would really like to transition over to data analytics, but I’m not going to be considered without knowledge in Tableau, SQL or Python. I’ve expressed interest in transitioning to my boss, and he seems supportive. He’s not a bullshitter; if he didn’t think it was something I could do, he would tell me outright.

    Due to the cost of classes, I’d like to ask my company to pay for, or help pay for training. It’s something they’ve done before, but more for skill improvements. Trying to convince them to pay for training for basically a brand new skill-set for me feels incredibly daunting, but I also feel like, if I make a solid case, they would be receptive to it.

    Do you have any tips on how to go about building a strong case to ask my company to pay for education so that I can transition to a different role?

    1. Alex*

      I’d first check out any company policies regarding training/education benefits so that you know what you are working with. And maybe ask around to find out if anyone else has had success with getting training through work.

      Also, have you checked out free online courses? There are tons in data analytics, python, etc. Maybe start out with them, and then once you have some baseline and have proved an actual interest, you might be able to slowly transition to some data analytics work at your company. If you then hit a wall with needing more training, you can show that it would be a continuation of stuff you’d already been doing.

      I’ve managed a similar path in my work (learning stuff online, gradually nosing in on subjects at work that aren’t really “mine” but I want to learn, and then leveraging that to get myself a promotion :)).

      1. otherOther*

        IME, a lot of “true beginner” paid intro courses aren’t super worthwhile for any tech stuff.

        If you do some self learning, and use some free online courses, you could then save your social capital for when you need some more intermediate/advanced help/training, which is where paid classes become much more useful. Ideally, you could learn enough to do a little bit of work in your current job using these skills, and have a more complicated goal in mind related to your job. That would be the ideal leverage in getting them to help pay for the classes.

    2. Borgette*

      I’m a Data Visualization Analyst, and spend 75% of my time working in Tableau. I don’t have any advice for getting your company to pay for training, but I DO have advice on accessing free Tableau Training.

      If you don’t currently have access to Tableau, you can install Tableau Public for free! This is a nearly full version that will let you create your own visualizations. The main limitation is that you cannot save locally, all workbooks must be saved to the Tableau Public website. The Tableau Public site is a great place to build your portfolio and share workbooks for feedback/advice. Tableau’s website has a TON of helpful tutorials for beginners, and is probably the best place to pick up the basics.

      If you want datasets or ideas for workbooks, you can get involved with Makeover Monday or Workout Wednesday practices. Both are weekly events where volunteers post a Data Visualization/Tableau challenge and anyone can participate. Once you have some experience, answering questions on the Tableau Community board or Stack Overflow is a great way to build skills while helping others.

  160. Eleanor Shellstrop*

    Does anyone have a tiny, absolutely harmless thing that someone does at your workplace that drives you NUTS?

    One of my coworkers writes the first sentence of their emails in the subject line of the email, resulting in things like this:
    Subject: Can I book a conference room for a llama wrangling session for 4 people next Tuesday at 3? It’s a preliminary training.
    Body of message: Thanks!

    Dunno why, but this is like nails on a chalkboard to me!!!! That’s not what the subject line is for!

    1. Psyche*

      If this is someone who emails you a lot, why not simply tell them that you need to be able to read their entire message in the body of the email without referencing the subject line? I know that for my inbox, long subject lines get cut off.

    2. SufjanFan*

      I also had a coworker who did that and it bugged me! Doing that saves this person like, what, the time from typing two extra words?

    3. OlympiasEpiriot*

      Well, for very short messages where one has to use e-mail, a standard I used to be around a lot and still occasionally use is:

      SUBJECT: “My confirmation/request/answer. (EOM)”

      …where EOM = End Of Message.

      But, then, there is no message in the body, just my standard auto signature text.

      1. curly sue*

        My mother still does this, and it’s a leftover from work even though she’s been retired for six+ years. Lotus Notes? I have a feeling it was something to do with Lotus Notes. So I get a *lot* of emails that are purely

        Subject: THANKS FOR THE KID PICTURES (eom)

        I’ve been slowly redirecting her to text messaging.

      2. FD*

        My dad does this! I think it was popular in the days when email was being used but instant messaging systems hadn’t gotten accepted for the workplace yet.

        (He also doesn’t have a cell phone.)

        1. OlympiasEpiriot*

          Instant messaging is really, really new in the span of time that there’s been computers in the workplace. E-mail was around for a long time comparatively. I think the EOM is older than regular “retail” e-mail.

      3. OtterB*

        I think that dates back to the days when some email systems would charge you per message for messages you downloaded. So if you could tell from the subject line that there was no more information in the message, then you didn’t have to download it and didn’t have to pay for it.

        1. OlympiasEpiriot*

          I think this is true. Also probably related to transmittal (and, by extension, baud rates).

          I first came across it on very early message boards. There would be whole conversations that looked like:
          >Funny Joke [USER1] Note: This one you’d have to click on to get to subpage to read the joke.
          >Ha!(eom) [USER2]
          >NOOOOOOO!! (eom) [USER3]
          >But, did you hear the one about XXX?(eom) [USER2]
          >WhY? You made me cry. (EOM) [USER3]
          >This is what you get when you let USER2 into the room.(EOM)[USER1]

          And so on. This was all pre-browser days. Had to have a BB dial-in number to the server.

          1. OlympiasEpiriot*

            Um, the formatting stripped out. There were more indents, but you get the idea.

    4. A Simple Narwhal*

      Oh that bothers me too! Use the body of the email peeps, that’s what it’s for!

      I have a few coworkers who will occasionally slap an emoji into their emails, nothing truly outrageous, typically just a smiley face. But as much as I have a deep-seated dependence on emojis in my personal life, I haaaaate seeing them in work contexts.

      Also Outlook doesn’t render emojis in their preview pop-up or the inbox preview, so the message ends up getting distorted with random letters, which is confusing in the moment.

    5. LaDeeDa*

      HAHA that is funny, I have never seen that. My boss and I joke that I do really long subject lines, it is because she is super busy and I am trying to let her know what is contained in the email so she can search for it. One I sent today was: ” summary, French PM communication, Goals timeline. HRBP training. 2 decision points” LOL! But she loves it and it works for her, she rather have 1 email with everything I need to tell her and her decision points, than 4 emails.

      But to your question- I have a direct report that doesn’t save anything. So I send him things– documents, links, etc– and I don’t know what he does with them, because we talk about them in our weekly one on ones. But if in 1 week I reference that document or the link where something is saved, he asks me to resend it. So I literally search my email, find it and forward it to him, or paste the link into IM. I shouldn’t have to do that. Example– 2 weeks ago, I sent him all the links people may ask about in a webinar he was giving. I did this because they were the questions that came in my webinar, which he hadn’t attended, I was trying to make life easier for him— having all the links in one document by subject/title he could copy and past them into the chat window when people asked.
      He was doing the SAME webinar this morning, and when I told him I couldn’t join because of another meeting, and I reminded him of that email, he asked if I could resend it. That should be part of his PREP!

    6. lawschoolmorelikeblawschool*

      Yah, my cube neighbor giggles to herself randomly throughout the day. She’s very nice and we have a good relationship, but it annoys me to no end.

    7. Nicki Name*

      She’s probably writing for the way she uses email. Some people prefer to just look through the list of subject lines in their inbox. It’s annoying to you because it doesn’t work for the way you (and the majority of people) use email.

      1. valentine*

        I would do this so you don’t have to click on the email. The subject+preview holds the entire message. And for messages where the subject is a short one-sentence FYI, I move my signature up so that’s the preview and you can see there’s no more to read.

    8. Neosmom*

      I worked for a company that had a culture of sending email messages that were only subjects. However, the culture also stated that such messages should always start with an asterisk – which flagged readers that there was no more information. For example: *Bagels in the break room. Enjoy!

    9. Iris Eyes*

      Ugh yes. I have a coworker who does this because someone who hasn’t worked here for years requested that emails have the content in the subject line.

    10. just a random teacher*

      On a similar level, I have one co-worker that marks every email she sends as High Importance. (Her emails do not generally contain anything of higher importance than the rest of the emails I receive.) I mean, those high/low importance indicators are basically never useful information and I don’t know anyone who actually sorts their email based on them (I certainly don’t), so it’s not like it impacts my workflow. It’s just odd.

      1. Seeking Second Childhood*

        I wonder if it got set to her default without her knowing how to change it back. Stranger things have happened!

    11. Seeking Second Childhood*

      I have a remote co-worker who I love because she’s efficient & organized & helpful. But…. when she uses IM she makes it a mini-letter! “Dear $MyName, I am working on the new red teapot lid, and they had you do the new red teapot last month. Would you please send me the x so I can y? Thanks, $HerName”
      This despite our manager telling us together that she should reuse my x for her y, and I should send it by next week.
      Wordy is putting it mildly.

    12. Llellayena*

      I’ve got a coworker who micromanages HIMSELF! But if you’re on a project with him, he’ll narrate what he’s planning to do.
      Monday morning: I’ll get to your stuff by lunch
      1 hr later: stuff happened, I think I can get to your stuff by 3.
      2 pm: I might need to do your stuff tomorrow.
      Me, after every update: I don’t need it until Friday, relax.

      1. valentine*

        Tell him no more updates (unless he won’t be able to do it at all or something similarly vital).

    13. Apologies*

      Ugh, yes. I love my boss but he’ll put “FYI” at the beginning of any email he forwards to me. Sometimes it’s really just FYI, but a lot of the time the message says “FYI – can you please [blah blah blah]” like…..at that point it’s not FYI? I just don’t get why he includes it if he could just type the question or instruction without it. It’s dumb but it grinds my gears for sure

    14. NicoleK*

      My BEC coworker will email me and then run to my desk to ask me if I received the email.

  161. I Work on a Hellmouth*

    Hello from the Hellmouth! Well, actually, this Friday it is a hello from the My Living Room, as I have today off and just finished up what I think was a pretty good phone interview (please cross your fingers for me). Here’s hoping your week has treated you well! This week has been a really short one for me, but with a few notable happenings, the two biggest being The Lack of McGruff and the fallout of Squirrelmaggedon. So turneth the Hellmouth.

    McGruff’s firing last week has had a huuuuuuuuuuuge impact on the office, mostly in positive ways. While we are now super short staffed (and have been really overwhelmed with resident issues and walk-ins), the energy is now palpably less terrible and everyone is able to better handle everything that gets thrown at us. If energy vampires are real, I think that lady might be one. We’ve also been uncovering countless “presents” from her that keep popping up—mistakes she made that she actively hid, massive errors in leases and move-in documents, customer service nightmares that keep randomly detonating… gifts that are probably going to keep on giving for a month or two. I’m just grateful that we’re not in the busy season, which would have just meant a lot MORE of that stuff lying in wait. McGruff also spent a LOT of time on Friday post-firing texting The Good Leasing Consultant. She is apparently outraged that she would be fired over “taking home something perishable that was mailed to someone who didn’t even live here anymore” and that she was actually “doing a favor” by taking it. TGLC texted back once to say that the former resident in question actually had family who still lived on the Hellmouth and that they had come around asking about the package, to which McGruff replied (and I quote) “Well, how was I supposed to know that?!?!?!?!” So, you know… classy to the end. She has also reportedly blocked me specifically on all social media, which… I mean, I hadn’t looked her up on social media before and don’t really feel the need to now, so that seems odd. Apparently I’m the Big Bad?

    Meanwhile, the fallout from Squirrelmaggedon rages on. It was determined that the buiding that had the large family (families?) of squirrels in the roof/walls had finally had the last of the furry little commandos extracted, and the final entry point was sealed up. Well, apparently at least one squirrel had remained… and expired. Somewhere above the apartment of one of our most volatile residents. This led to a lot of screaming phones calls to the office (while pest control and maintenance were in his apartment attempting to solve the issue), in person tantrums directed at maintenance and pest control when they were unable to locate the issue, and the like. TGLC told my boss that she really needed to call the resident, because the resident was freaking out and if he didn’t speak to the manager he was likely to storm into the office and behave similarly to the now ex-resident that I’m pressing assault charges against. What was the reaction of Boss? To send maintenance back, lock her office, and leave to “walk the [other side] of the property.” This did not wind up mollifying the resident (go figure). A few hours later (after Boss had returned to her office and was on a call) I answered the phone only to be hit with a barrage of insults and to be threateningly told that the resident expected us to pay for a hotel room for his family and that none of us would be going home until he was satisfied.

    Well, I’ve honestly pretty much had it with this kind of crap, so I politely told him that I would alert the manager to his request for a hotel room, that someone would call him back shortly with an answer, and that I was ending the conversation because I was unable to converse further if threats were being made. I then got off of the phone and went back to running money, which I was still doing ten minutes later when he stormed into the front office, stormed past the nice couple signing their move in paperwork, stormed up to my shut office door, and let himself in before angrily slamming it closed and hissing “And how are YOU doing today?”

    And honestly, guys, I am freaking OVER this crap. I just stared at him and blandly asked him what he thought he was doing in my office, he demanded to know how he was being threatening, and Boss must have realized that if she didn’t do something very quickly I would probably quit on the spot because she called him into HER office and read him the riot act before escorting him out of the building (this may be the first time she’s ever not just left an employee to take a figurative bullet for her). Of course, on the way out he hissed at me to “have BLESSED day” and that he “hoped I got home safely.” So… I called in claiming emergency dental work the next day (Thursday) so I could go take the state civil service test, and spent the rest of the day (and will spend the rest of today) applying to more jobs. Because eeeeeeeeeffffffff this. Also, I hope that squirrel has family that will avenge him. And that’s the latest at the Hellmouth.

    1. Lucy*

      Fingers crossed for the results of the interview.

      Have you seen that you were tagged upthread? If you haven’t yet, please search for hellmouth in the page and reassure readers!

      2. BadWolf*

        I confess I was worried for Hellmouth for a few moment before I realized it was in ND!

    2. AnonTemp*

      he demanded to know how he was being threatening

      Um, we can start with opening a closed door without knocking, slamming it shut and then yelling, much less everything else done on the phone? Yeeaaaah.

      Sending positive phone interview energy vibes!!

      I wondering how many people McGruff has relayed the “I got fired because I saved a meal delivery box” story in hopes of finding an agreeable “finders/keepers” audience.

      1. I Work on a Hellmouth*

        I am guessing, just based on the general scuttlebutt, that the answer to that question is “all of them.” I also believe she may be planning to tell that story in future job interviews, which… probably isn’t going to go over very well…

    3. Happy Lurker*

      Thanks for the update! Continued good wishes for your new job search.
      I would have called out too. That sounded scary!

      1. I Work on a Hellmouth*

        Thank you!
        Honestly, it was more enraging than scary in this particular instance… maybe because the dude just came across as more wanting to intimidate me as opposed to seeming to want to actually physically harm me? Or maybe I’ve just finally hit my limit. But yeah, not fun. I’m pretty sure if he had pulled that stunt in anyone else’s place of work he would likely have had an escort via security or the proper authorities .

    4. LaDeeDa*

      I seriously can’t wait for Fridays to read your posts!!
      First, I am so glad you had a great phone interview, keep us posted! All my fingers are crossed for you.
      Second, I have now turned down THREE recruiters who have called me to head up Talent/Learning for 3 residential property owners/management companies… your posts have convinced me I don’t want to engage that crazy.

      1. I Work on a Hellmouth*

        Ha! Property management is pretty nuts. The place I’m stuck at is extra nuts with a crazy sundae on the side, but allllll property management is kind of cuckoo for cocoa puffs.

    5. Bee's Knees*

      I mean, I’ve told people I was mad at to have a lovely day, while leaning WAY in to my accent, that I’ve been told is fairly strong. But I’ve certainly never hissed it at someone. He seems like the type that would lean over you to yell, then get mad when you feel threatened.
      I hope you get some great results from your phone interview!

      1. I Work on a Hellmouth*

        Nailed it in one! He also got really mad when I no-sold his parting shot, heh. Just an angry wee little man.

    6. Cotton Headed Ninny Muggins*

      Hi! I’m glad you took some time this week to try and regroup. If you haven’t considered federal employment, I know that the IRS is hiring pretty aggressively nationwide, and while not the best digs, the benefits are decent. Not the greatest reputation, but I don’t recall any squirrel-based headlines re: IRS in recent years. Look on USAjobs if that could be a possibility for you. Good Luck! We’re rooting for you!

    7. Anonforthis*

      OMG thank you for the update. I didn’t see that McGruff was fired, but honestly expected that that would be the outcome. I’m also laughing at Squirrelmageddon.
      Best of luck on the phone interview/civil service test/other job leads. I’m not a praying person, but I’m sending the best vibes your way.

    9. revueller*

      best of luck getting the f out of there as soon as possible. rooting for you with the interview and the civil service test!

    10. Move Over Thrawn - Florian Munteanu is BIGGER than you!*

      Not that this jerk deserves to be freed of his squirrel problem, but my office found our expired squirrel, today, after a week of that indescribable smell, in the ac return duct. And good luck to you with your new job! We are all waiting eagerly for the day when you announce you have returned to the world of relative sanity.

      1. I Work on a Hellmouth*

        I legitimately can not wait to announce a countdown for that. Fingers crossed it will happen soon!

      2. dovidbawie*

        My old church had a dead squirrel stuck in their broken AC ducts, in the summer, in South Carolina. Sundays were raaaaaank. The year-end service the pastor announced they were serving “cinnamon squirrel spice” afterward.

    11. Free Meerkats*

      Re: Squirrelmaggedon There’s a reason that good exterminators don’t just seal the entrance holes, but put one-way flaps on them. And having had a possum expire under our office trailer (on top of one of the HVAC ducts in the winter), I kind of commiserate with the resident.

      Many years ago, I was in voir dire for a jury where the former and current residents of a trailer park were suing the owners. The basics of the suit were explained to the 40 of us (big panel because the trial was expected to last 6 months) and we were asked if we thought we could take what the witnesses said at face value. One woman lost it and said that she could never believe any of the plaintiffs because she worked as an apartment manager and all tenants did nothing but lie – all the time; anything that came out of a tenant’s face was a lie. She was excused. But, boy was she hot and angry! Being on that jury was one of the best things I ever did.

      1. Turtlewings*

        That’s… so… I mean, what, every person who lives somewhere does nothing but lie? Isn’t she herself a tenant of something/somewhere? I guess she could own her own house. Was she a ceaseless teller of untruths up to the day she closed on her house? It’s one thing to feel you can’t be impartial because you identify strongly with the defendants, but “anything out of a tenant’s face is a lie” takes it to a baffling level.

        1. I Work on a Hellmouth*

          For reference, my boss firmly believes that any tenant that goes to court is lying about whatever brought them to court. But she is also 1) evil, and 2) campaigns against anti-slumlord ordinances in my town.

      3. I Work on a Hellmouth*

        Well, before they sealed it they had a one way flap with a trap attached for about two weeks. The resident actually pitched a fit about sealing the hole up once he stopped hearing scratches. And for what it is worth, no one who has been into the apartment can smell anything besides carpet cleaner, and the dude is insisting that dead squirrel and carpet cleaner have the same scent. I haven’t been in there, though, so I can’t weigh in on whether the maintenance crew just has defective sniffers or the dude is hysterical and crazypants/just wants a staycation at a local hotel.

        1. Move Over Thrawn - Florian Munteanu is BIGGER than you!*

          I’m voting for staycation, because that smell is BAAADDDD.

    13. Rural Resident*

      I look forward to your weekly updates, and search the posts to read yours first. I will miss it once you find new employment.
      That said, I hope your job search is successful and you find the perfect position soon. You deserve the best after what you’ve been through!

    15. Its all good*

      I can not wait until you get another job, hopefully it will be on a heaven portal :-) Then we will have a virtual party for you.

  162. Purple Unicorn*

    I was contacted by a recruiter yesterday and I thought the position sounded interesting. And then I started digging deeper. It was the sketchiest start-up I have seen in years. They wanted an…interesting assortment of qualifications (recruiter skimmed my resume a little too quickly), were coy about salary (it’s in California, so they are supposed to be upfront about it), plus 50% international travel. To cap it all off, it’s located next to a meat packing plant. At that point, I was LMAO and declined.

    Seriously, I worked in Silicon Valley at the height of tech bubble, including one company where no one could explain exactly what sort of product or service we provided, even to our VC firm. This was sketchy even by that standard. I couldn’t figure out where the funding was coming from at all. Plus, their products sounded terrifying.

      1. Purple Unicorn*

        They are a tiny start-up. Their products are “you make WHAT out of WHAT?!??” Like chocolate teapots, but horrifying instead of chocolate. Nope, nope, nope.

    2. Spool of Lies*

      Oh, wow. This reminds me of when I worked briefly at a tech company that acted like a start-up (even though it’s an established company…?) and my department (technically, my ‘circle’ — it was a “Holacracy”-style org) was trying to launch a new brand before they had settled on a product or a market. I sat in on long meetings about whether the teal colour in the logo was too “healthcare-y” before we ever had a team conversation about what kind of technology we would be building and why. I left after 5 months.

  163. Mrs. Carmen Sandiego JD*

    I’m going to a teapot hockey sporting event tonight with coworkers with nice box seating. What’s the etiquette for sporting event behavior when it comes to coworkers? (How does it differ from, say, going with friends or a significant other)? Any unwritten rules? Completely new to this.

      1. Sophie before she was cool*

        I don’t think this is a rule, really. Don’t OVERdrink alcoholic beverages, certainly, but there’s nothing wrong with having a beer with your hockey if you’re into that.

      2. The Man, Becky Lynch*

        What kind of craziness is this rule?

        This vastly depends on your crew. If we had this rule, nobody would ever come to our after work events!

        Just don’t over-do it. Be smart, know your limits.

    2. Elizabeth Proctor*

      I wouldn’t say no alcohol on a Friday night, but limit yourself to 1-2. This is just coworkers, not clients, I presume? If clients, no alcohol. I would behave similarly as you would (should!) at a company party with food and drink.

    3. Armchair Analyst*

      Talk sports, and events. Cheer for the boss’s team. Be a good loser/rival. Don’t text too much – pay attention to the game.
      Have fun!!

    4. Delta Delta*

      Have fun! That’s both an encouragement and an unwritten rule. Go, have a good time, socialize a little, maybe have a beer or two (but not more than that). Don’t be a wet blanket. If it’s a sport you don’t totally know, feel free to ask questions but don’t be bothersome by asking a zillion questions. If the opposing team is your favorite team I think it’s ok to wear your gear and cheer for your team (like Elaine from Seinfeld in the Orioles hat at a Yankee game).

    5. Iris Eyes*

      Oh how fun! I got my first (minor) hockey suite experience. It was pretty great.

      If you are really into the team maybe don’t yell quite as loud as you normally would. Generally don’t distract people who are actively watching.

    6. The Man, Becky Lynch*

      It depends on the hockey team, it’s the end of the NHL season so depending on where the team is in the rankings it’s either “big scary and stressful” or “it’s over, it’s all over, let’s just drink and take pics with the mascot”.

      Rule #1, take lots of pictures with the mascot.

      Don’t get rowdy and get pulled aside by the security. *mutter mutter*

  164. Ticked Off*

    No raise for me next year. I got dinged on my evaluation for “organization” of my “work,” and only emails sent to my boss were mentioned. 20% of my evaluation is about “specific job duties” and my boss didn’t even put in any comments! If I were to evaluate her work based on the way she wrote my evaluation, she wouldn’t get a raise this year, either! I think she spent 10 minutes on it and didn’t bother to look at my work, much of which is on the web, so it’s not like she would have to look through files or call people up. Grrrr

    /rant

    Okay, back to my cover letters…

    1. valentine*

      Write a list of accomplishments and stuff she left out and appeal. If you lose, appeal to her boss.

  165. TooTiredToThink*

    Mental health and work…my husband suffers from depression and anxiety. He’s in a new job, but unfortunately due to a spike in his anxiety, he’s already missed quite a few days. He’s in therapy and has gotten doctor’s notes, but we both know it’s not good that he’s been missing work. He just got called into an impromptu meeting with his boss’s boss and the boss above him and now he’s on probation. He kicks butt at work when he’s well, but right now the depression is kicking his. What can he do to protect his mental health and his job?

    1. noahwynn*

      My only thought is to talk to his doctor and see if there’s any other treatments or medications to try.

      It’s not easy for sure though. Plus being worried about having a job or being told they need you to improve attendance or performance doesn’t help with anxiety and depression either.

    2. The Man, Becky Lynch*

      There’s nothing he can do to protect his job sadly, if his medical issue is such that he just simply needs time off when he needs time off, barring him being able to access FLMA protections [he’s not, he hasn’t been there a year, but maybe there’s state protections, you’ll have to look into that]. The protections and accommodations are only such that they don’t cause hardship for the employer, not being able to be available and adhere to a schedule aren’t reasonable accommodations.

      What’s important is he takes care of himself and what he needs. He may have to accept this means he loses a job because he’s so new to it. It’s a setback and it’s difficult but it’s part of working in general.

      I’ve had awesome workers that have been let for similar reasons because truly, if you’re there 50% killing it, that’s fantastic but the other 50% of the time we’re scrambling and suffering…he would need something that allows him to work from home or on a schedule that doesn’t need him there at set times. Which is niche and not going to work for everyone. This stinks and is so hard and I’m sorry he’s going through this right now.

    3. The Ginger Ginger*

      Is this something that could fall under/be alleviated through ADA accommodations? If so I would request them through the proper channels really quick.

      1. valentine*

        Yes, especially if there’s a timeframe he can point to or an amount of work he can accomplish. He should ask, anyway, but specifics allow for his employers to do logistics.

        Can he consider moving to a job less impacted by his health?

  166. Astrea*

    I got offered the job!!!!!

    A “verbal offer” by email, that is. I replied that I’m very interested, but want to see the official offer letter (described on the employer’s hiring website) before committing to it, and later that I’m very excited about the job and look forward to receiving the letter. And they’re still going through the bureaucratic hiring process. So it’s hard to feel like I’ve truly clinched it yet. But I plan to.

    The job is very part-time, with very low pay and probably no benefits. But I’ll keep my other very part-time job and some of my disability-based government benefits. And it’s an “in” to a highly-desired major institution that does a lot of internal hiring, and it’s a type of work I really like to do.

    After three and a half years of job-hunting with no offers, including two previous applications for the position I’ve now been offered, this is a big victory. Thank you to Alison and the commenters here who helped me do better and navigate the uncertain process.

    1. Lucy*

      Wow – sounds like a great fit for your life! Hope the paperwork comes through quickly.

      1. Astrea*

        Not a perfect fit. As a non-driver, I’ll have a challenging commute — heavily dependent on ADA paratransit for weekend work, and sometimes needing to find a ride some other way. Not something I would attempt for a job I didn’t *badly* want. But it will hopefully prove manageable, better than a previous job I had in a county with extremely little public transit.

  167. Fake Old Converse Shoes (not in the US)*

    A few weeks ago our senior developer quit without notice at lunchtime, where all of us were away. Nothing out of the ordinary, until he tried to contact every one of us via Whatsapp and LinkedIn, etc. His former team leader is taking the worst part – he got so many texts he had to block him. The worst part of this is this person, who claimed to be a senior dev with 10+ experience, left such a mess behind it’s going to take at least two people to clean it up, never mind saving the business relationship with our client. Our guess is he left with nothing lined up and now he’s desperately trying to get a positive reference, but I doubt any of us is willing to help him.

      1. Fake Old Converse Shoes (not in the US)*

        He says he wants to keep in touch, which is the least his former team leader wants. His LinkedIn profile was recently updated and is full of false claims that can be easly debunked.

    2. Camellia*

      Um, quitting at lunchtime without notice is nothing out of the ordinary? Sorry, but can’t help being curious about that.

      1. Fake Old Converse Shoes (not in the US)*

        It’s really not that uncommon. The turnover rate here is really high, people leave as soon as they get a better paying job. I don’t blame them.

  168. Testing the Waters*

    I recently threw my name in the hat for a huge promotion. It was for leadership in a different department, but working for my same boss (I work directly under the COO). I interviewed and it went well. I was one of the top candidates, but my salary requirements for the job were the sticking point. The job would have required me to move myself and my family to a more expensive area. As a result, I needed a significant pay increase to make it work. The company decided to go in another direction, and I am still highly regarded and enjoy my current position, so no harm there. My question comes as a result of this process. I have been in my current position for about five years. I have worked my way up in this position from knowing next to nothing about marketing to being fully in-charge of it from strategy to execution. I am literally a one-person department.

    Would it be wrong to ask for a change in title, without any increase in pay? My current title is Communications Coordinator and I don’t feel that it describes well what I do to an outsider. What I actually do is more along the lines of a Marketing Manager or Director of Marketing to be honest. As I consider the future, I may not be at this company forever, especially if I don’t want to make a move and I want to make sure my title accurately represents my skill-level.

    1. Psyche*

      I don’t think that is wrong. Point out that your title no longer accurately reflects your job duties and see if they are willing to change it. It doesn’t seem like you really risk much so long as your assessment is correct. If you ask for a director title and your work really is on a coordinator level you could come across as out of touch, but since you have been there for five years, I’m assuming you know what the titles mean to your organization.

    2. The Man, Becky Lynch*

      It’s something that’s reasonable to ask about. You can point to reasons why your title doesn’t fit, so it’s really a matter of seeing if the others will agree to it.

      Often titles are just kind of thrown out there and people then start meshing jobs into one bigger mutant job that’s better described with another title.

      Make it know it’s a title change, that you’re thrilled otherwise but just want to see if they can update your title. Names/titles do have meaning and importance, no matter what others want to say about it.

      1. LaDeeDa*

        This is right. On… and I would go about making that request by taking your current job description and start filling in all the other things you do, and then pull job postings and job descriptions that match what you are currently doing. Sometimes if you can give them a clear picture of what is different/changed they are more willing to do it. Also, if your company has a compensation department- this is part of their job, and may even offer you assistance. Every few years our compensation department actually goes through this process company-wide to make sure we are giving people not only the proper title and recognition but also the right pay for the work they are doing, their marketability, the average pay for that job in their location. It has been a huge part of why our retention has increased so much in the last 5 years. And the added bonus it helped uncover pay differences between people doing the same jobs (we had a lot of women really happy with this process.)

  169. AnonAMouse*

    Need advice on a grandboss who is coercing everyone to use their own social media accounts to advertise a work event. Let’s say I am a specialist working in teapot glazing and grandboss is making everyone share an org event on fingerpainting on their own social media accounts. He is also asking people for proof that they indeed shared this on this SM. This rubs me the wrong way but how do I deal with this?

    *Context: I work in an office that is a bit Stockholmed by the grandboss and no one ever raises any objections to his other weird/unethical/strange/borderline-illegal requests in the past.

    2. Psyche*

      Do you think you would get negative repercussions from refusing? If so, you could post it, show grandboss and immediately delete it.

    3. The Man, Becky Lynch*

      1. Say you have no social media
      2. Sock puppet social media accounts for this nonsense.

    4. LaDeeDa*

      People have posted similar questions on here before, and it is shocking to me that a company would even suggest that! I coach new grads and interns around use of social media- because they are from generations that have always had it. It is their norm, and sometimes they don’t even think about what they say privately may get back to their employer and can get them fired. I tell them do not link your FB, Instagram, Twitter to your company/job, unless you only use it in a professional capacity.
      I can’t imagine why a company would chance this– all it takes is one post by an employee going viral and getting negative attention to bring some really negative press to a company.
      I would flat refuse. I do not use my real last name on any of my social media, and the only place my name and company are attached are on LinkedIn.
      I am not friends with any coworkers on FB, I don’t follow or have anyone following me from work on Instagram or Twitter.
      Refuse, deny you have it… whatever you have to do. If you feel like you must. Create secondary accounts with a variation of your name, that you only post cute cat videos to and work related stuff.

    5. Armchair Analyst*

      Could you compromise by “liking” the official post by the official company page or handle, or doing it on a smaller social media site that doesn’t matter as much (say, like LinkedIn instead of Facebook)?

    6. A Simple Narwhal*

      As a totally last ditch effort you could make the post, take a screengrab of it on your profile, then delete it. You said you’d share it, not that you’d keep it up indefinitely!

    7. Not A Morning Person*

      I don’t think it is necessarily an awful request, just be judicious with your response. I use LinkedIn for these kinds of things. My employer asks us if we’d share work related events on our LinkedIn so our professional colleagues see it and I don’t think that’s a big deal, expecially if I am involved in the event or it’s being organized by my department. I just repost something from the main LinkedIn account for my organization. But that’s it. No instragram, no facebook, no twitter, no anything else, just one posting to “advertise” that my organization is doing something. Of course, if you don’t want to do that, then you shouldn’t have to, but if it makes life easier to be able to do it on LinkedIn, then that could be an option for you.

  170. Jaid*

    Was in training this week. The classroom has ridiculously tiny monitors and slow computers, which was fun. The best part was getting mixed up in the break area and going into the wrong bathroom.
    Thank goodness it wasn’t in use.

    1. noahwynn*

      Someone in training did the same thing at my job yesterday. My cubical is right outside the bathrooms. There is a doorway into the bathroom hallway, and then a door into each bathroom. The person came out of the men’s room, turned the wrong way and walked right into the women’s room. Then he immediately turned around and ran out. I didn’t see it happen but my cubemate did and told me. I felt so bad for them because you could see they were embarrassed and they were new to the company.

    3. OtterB*

      I did this once years ago. I was an instructor for a class at a plant. We had class in the meeting room on the 3rd floor once and the meeting room on the 5th floor once. The location of the men’s and women’s bathrooms were reversed on the two floors for who-knows-what reason. Fortunately, the men’s room was empty when I walked into it.

  171. Definitely going anon here*

    The question earlier in the week about the coworker using medical marijuana was good timing because I think my boss smokes medical marijuana. I know he has problems with chronic pain, and today I’ve smelled weed both in his office and in the company truck after he drove it.

    I don’t have any reason to think that he’s hiding this from the company or smoking “illegally” (and frankly I wouldn’t care even if he was). I doubt he’s lighting up a joint in front of clients and his office is in an area with no foot traffic so there’s no concern about the smell bothering others.

    I don’t think this is something I need to or should discuss with him. If he needed me to know for any reason, I’m assuming he would tell me. But since he hasn’t said anything to me I feel awkward knowing this information now and I find myself second-guessing my actions. I keep wondering, if I know he’s smoking during the workday should I leave him alone? Send an email instead of dropping by his office? Follow-up with him on things that aren’t time-sensitive at a later time? etc. etc.

    I’m definitely over-thinking this, right? And definitely shouldn’t say anything to him about it? I don’t know that I’d be second-guessing things like this if it was any other type of medicine that he was using, and I sort of hate that I’m reacting like this now.

    1. The Man, Becky Lynch*

      Yeah you’re over thinking it. Unless you realize he’s high at work and he’s in danger, I would just leave it alone. He may not even be smoking it, topical ointments also have the same distinctive smell.

      I just act like I don’t even know what it smells like. “Oh I grew up in the woods, that’s not skunk cabbage? I never woulda guessed.” Ignorance is bliss in that situation.

      1. Definitely going anon here*

        Thanks for confirming that I’m just over-thinking this. Also I had no idea that topical ointments smelled as well, so that’s interesting to know. (Not that it’s really any of my business in what form he uses medical marijuana anyway, but still interesting.)

        Funnily enough, we’re in an industry that sometimes involves having to do field work in rural areas so it’s not *impossible* that that’s what it is… though improbable, because I was hired specifically to take over his field work. But maybe feigning ignorance to myself and thinking of it as, “That’s skunk cabbage, not a big deal, move on” will help stop the over-thinking.

        1. The Man, Becky Lynch*

          In that case, maybe he hit a skunk with the truck, even an already trampled one will reek for a long time ;)

          Those aren’t always rural…oh my goodness no they are not. Yeah, my schnauzer got skunked not once but twice because he’s the worst.

    2. Celia*

      You don’t need to address this if you don’t want to. I definitely wouldn’t tiptoe around him. Just fly casual. However, it is not cool to stink up a work space with any smell, be it perfume, microwaved fish, etc. If that is bothering you, you can ask people not to fill a shared space with distracting smells.

      1. Tathren*

        To clarify, I only noticed the smell because I had to stop by his office to ask him a question. He’s tucked in a back alcove away from everyone and everything else. The smell doesn’t permeate out to any areas used by other people but it was VERY noticeable once I got back to his space.

        With the truck I noticed a funk but didn’t connect it to the smell of weed until I stopped by his office and went, “Oh THAT’s what that was!” It was only in hindsight that I realized it was secondhand odor, like I’m used to smelling in friends’ cars.

        So luckily, no concerns about him stinking up the place :) He’s definitely being discrete and conscientious about this.

    3. Free Meerkats*

      It would be an issue here for a couple of reasons. Even though recreational use is legal here, use at work is specifically forbidden. And there is a blanket policy of no smoking of any kind in city vehicles; period. It’s an immediate write-up if caught.

      If he’s doing his job, no need to change anything in how you interact with him.

    4. Gumby*

      The only thing that is possibly concerning here is the “in the company truck after he drove it” part. If it is smell transferred from his clothes, that is one thing. But it is illegal to drive while high and while some say it is safer than driving while drunk (I haven’t looked into the research but that seems to be the quick-google-search consensus) that still doesn’t make it *safe* and it is treated like a DUI would be so there are probably liability issues. It still might not be on you to bring it up with him – that seems like an HR problem.

      *I* would say something, but that is because the smell does bug me. A lot. Like constant headaches and when I walk by a particularly strong smell I gag from it. (Ah, the streets of San Francisco…)

      1. I Took A Mint*

        Agreed, I would be more concerned about someone using medication that impairs (whether marijuana or Nyquil) at work or while driving. Who cares if he does it at home though.

  172. Set me straight*

    I had an interview 2 weeks ago. They told me they would let me know within a few days if they were checking my reference, and they did. I talked to my references so I know the company talked to some of the references this past week. During the interview I was told that I should hear back by today.When’s the earliest I can send a “check in” email?

      1. Set me straight*

        Ugh I was thinking like Tuesday or something. But I guess Friday makes sense.

        One of my references told me that the conversation went well and now I’m like “why did you tell me that now I have hope”

        1. The Man, Becky Lynch*

          Give them a week because you never know what’s going on.

          I had the same situation a couple years ago. My references called me right away to say “Oh yeah, it was a great conversation, I’m certain you’ll get the job.” etc. And it was a week until I had to reach out and say “I was just checking back in…you said you’d let me know by X…” and whoops, Boss told HR to call me with an offer, HR drafted a letter and thought boss was going to read it first and sign off on it first…then the boss was out on personal family stuff right afterwards with an elderly parent. So that nudge was the “OMG, we dropped the ball, yes here’s your offer letter.”

          Also my partner received the call at the end of the day of the “let you know by X date”, while he was sitting at home practically gnawing off his own hand waiting.

  173. MsChanandlerBong*

    So, I’m an editor for a site that is similar to Textbroker, Demand Studios, etc. Writers sign up, claim assignments, and get paid for them. We have everyone fill out a W-9 when they start so that we can issue a 1099 for their earnings each year. However, we are having a major problem with people giving us fake SSNs/TINs. Any ideas for dealing with this? The SSA has an SSN verification service, but it specifically says that you can only use it if you are an employer checking on the SSN of a W-2 employer. We can’t use it because we’re hiring contractors.

        1. valentine*

          You might ask/address if they’re afraid of identity theft or are avoiding taxes.

    2. Maya Elena*

      If it affects their ability to get paid, they’ll probably take care of it.
      But do you need to provide a valid SSN for you to legally pay them as a contractor?

      1. MsChanandlerBong*

        I am not sure. The problem is that we are getting a ton of 1099 forms returned to us in the mail because the addresses turn out to be fake, too. We also had someone steal another person’s resume off LinkedIn and use it to get hired. We sent a 1099 to the person named on the W-9, and she wrote to us and wanted to know why we sent her a 1099, as she had never heard of us or worked for us. Since the SSN was fake, no income was reported under her name, but it’s concerning that we’re getting all this fake info.

      2. Margaret*

        If you pay a contractor more than $600 (generally – there are exceptions in both directions), you’re required to send them a 1099. And so not paying until you have (ostensibly correct) tax information, including SSN, is a common practice to make sure you actually get the information you need.

        But if you are able to sign up for the IRS system to check, then you can verify you have correct information before paying (or, ideally, before assigning, so you’re not delaying payment for work that’s already happened).

      2. Deathstalker Rexxar*

        This, exactly. We pay hundreds of independent contractors per year and I use this service to verify their name & TIN/SSN matches.

  174. Tammy*

    Not so much a question as just an expression of what I’m feeling this week, but comments welcome. My team is moving from our current location (an enclosed space on one floor of our building, with open plan office space inside it but with doors) to another space on a different floor (nobody else sitting near us but no doors). As the Senior Manager of the team, I’ve spent an enormous time talking to both my Individual Contributor team members, and my direct report manager/lead folks, mediating discussions and (in some cases heated) disputes about who’s sitting where. Multiple people were on the verge of tears. One team member even confided in me on Wednesday that she’d lost a night’s sleep worrying about whether her work productivity would be destroyed if she was assigned to a particular desk instead of another one 15 feet away.

    Some of this may be my neurodivergent brain, but…I understand that this is a huge, emotionally fraught issue for folks, but I’ll admit that I don’t understand why it’s such an issue. I’ve rarely in my work life been given input into where I sit, and honestly, it’s sort of all the same to me. (In fact, I resolved my sleepless team member’s issue by swapping my assigned spot with hers.) So I’m just feeling a little exhausted and perplexed at the amount of energy that’s gone into dealing with this issue this week.

    1. Kathleen_A*

      Oh, my. Look, I dislike the idea of an open office plan very, very much, and I loathe moving, but…lost a night’s sleep? Almost in tears? Heated discussions? Over desk location? Holy schlamoly. If I were you, Tammy, I wouldn’t even know how to respond to those things in anything like a diplomatic manner, so if you want validation that, yes, other people besides you find this a bit overwrought, you’ve got it!

      1. Antilles*

        Agreed. This is miles beyond normal.
        Being irritated about the open office plan? Very normal and reasonable. Trying to get the company to provide normal offices rather than the open office concept? Also definitely normal. Open offices are awful for employees, bad for productivity, and usually results in at least one person slowly going insane over the noise*. They’re loathed among employees for a reason.
        But tears, losing sleep, and heated disputes are all way beyond the norm here.
        *Side note, since you mentioned you’re pretty senior, if there’s any way for you to push back on the open office plan or at least push for your company to put up some cheap cubicle walls or something, please do. Open offices really are garbage and even regular employees (not to mention your bunch) would love you for doing so.

        1. valentine*

          Okay, but what will you do when desk 3 is too noisy and desk 5 has a wicked draft (as will all aisle seats, when people move quickly past them), but there’s only one person who thrives on cold and they’re already in the coldest spot and you feel you can’t possibly ask anyone else to switch and this all could’ve been avoided?

          Closed mouths don’t get fed and I’d rather be ridiculed than to stay silent, lose because you can’t read my mind, then have you say, “Why didn’t you say anything before?” What’s the point of the discussions if you’re not going to take the concerns seriously? If you have a narrow list you do respect, provide it ahead of the discussions so everyone can restrict their comments to those, then cry and sit vigil privately.

          1. Tammy*

            I’m definitely taking them seriously, and I’ve made a number of changes based on actual concerns. The part I find frustrating is the “there’s not really an actual concern, I just don’t want to move.” Because yeah, I get that, none of us wants to move. I think for me, there’s a difference between “I have an actual concern that I’m addressing” and “I don’t have an actual concern, I’m just unhappy we’re moving and so I’m reacting to imagined concerns about the new space that I haven’t even walked upstairs and looked at yet.”

            I’m still listening to everyone’s concerns (and we’ve adjusted the seating map 9 times so far based on both actual concerns and more ephemeral ones to the extent I’m able to accommodate them, including trading my own seat with a team member’s a few times) but I’m just a bit frustrated at the extent of the angst. (I’m not showing my frustration to my team, which is why I’m expressing it here.)

    2. Jamie*

      You’d be hard pressed to find anyone who hates open plan more than I do, but I those reactions are completely OTT.

      Unless your new workspace has a moat filled with sea monsters and those 15 feet will leave just out of tentacle reach I have no idea why someone would have so strong a reaction.

  175. Ron McDon*

    My son has spent a day and a half interviewing at a local company for a software engineer apprenticeship.

    He was complimented on his CV, and asked Alison’s ‘golden question’ – what would be the difference between someone doing a good job or a great job in this role – and the interviewer said ‘that’s a great question, I’ve never been asked that before’! He had three interviews and a technical skills test, so quite nerve-wracking for a 19yo!

    We have to cross our fingers and toes until he finds out next week if he has been successful.

    Either way I’m very proud of him – he spent a lot of time preparing and working on his questions and answers, and worked very hard on doing the best he could.

  176. Unaccountably Curious*

    I have a question with no requirement for response – I’m just beyond curious!

    Situation: My ex-BIL is transitioning, and looking for work at the same time. (And apologies if I use wrong pronouns or terminology, I have known her for over 10 years and don’t see her regularly, so this is rather confusing to me – all my trans friends were post-transition before I met them and this is new territory.) My curiosity relates to the job hunt/interview process. She has been living female most of the time, but decided to go to interviews as a male. So three- or four-round interviews, the potential employers met with “Sean” and got to know him – and she did say late in the interview process that she is transitioning. She got a job offer. She had thought she’d go to work initially as Sean and then change to Cecilia later – but has now decided to be Cecilia from day one. So the employer was told Sean would start work, and transition publicly to Cecilia after a period of learning the new job, but has been told to expect Cecilia on her first day of work.

    All that is fine as far as choosing who she wishes to be, and being that person in public. And I imagine it can be hard to decide what person to be in any situation, let alone a job interview. I am very curious though, would it have been “better” (not sure that’s exactly the word I want) to interview as Cecilia from the beginning, given that she will eventually live completely as Cecilia? Does it cause any issues for an employer navigating this situation, where they hired Sean ostensibly and now will be meeting Cecilia on day one? (The direct manager was in the later stage interviews.) Does the fact that her name is not legally changed mean she has to use Sean on her resume, or does she have the option to use Cecilia?

    I’m examining this purely from the perspective of “I’ve never been in this situation, and am curious about being the employer in this scenario.” Obviously, accommodating an individual transitioning is important, and the skill set remains the same because the person is the same regardless of the gender they identify as. The back and forth on the decision who to be day one seems like waffling (and that is mostly a function of how well I have known Sean’s personality over the years). There’s nothing that needs to be done – just, as I said, very curious about other people’s comments on this. Please, if you have experience or personal knowledge, educate me, and forgive anything I’ve written which may be inadvertently upsetting or judgmental.

    1. Arctic*

      Honestly, with all of the implicit and explicit bias against trans folks out there, I think from a practical standpoint it was probably best to interview as Sean. I don’t think it’s right. But given that bias I do wonder if maybe she wouldn’t have gone so far along in the interview process otherwise. It’s a little different once employers decide you are the best fit for the role.

      1. downtown funk*

        +1 I don’t hold anything against her to go as assume-I’m-a-man to the interview. If to get hired in the first place, she feels she has to lie about it, that’s on the company and society more than it is on her.

        1. valentine*

          Ex-SIL and if her pronouns are she/her, always use them. When telling the story, if you think it’s confusing, use Sean instead of male pronouns, or put male pronouns in quotes.

    2. downtown funk*

      In general, it’s good to start as you mean to go on. As you’ve noted, it’s easier when you know someone post-transition because you’re not struggling with remembering a different name or pronouns, you just use the ones you’ve always used. Especially in a workplace and getting to know people and making your own reputation, it’s hard enough when people change their names in marriage (“Jane Aardvark’s e-mail address doesn’t work anymore? Yeah, she’s Jane Bluebird now.”) Changing what gender people think of you, along with your name… it can be really hard. So when it’s possible, it’s better to show up on Day 1 as how you want to be seen on Day 300.

      Is this always possible? Nope. But when it is possible, it makes it easier for the employee and also all the coworkers.

    3. H.C.*

      I honestly do not see an issue with your ex-BIL interviewing as “Sean” but wanting to start day one as “Cecilia”. Job searches/interviews and transitioning are both long & complicated processes, and I think every possible kindness should be extended to make the person as comfortable as possible with their sexual identity.

      RE: legal name, it might cause some issues with HR as far as payroll/benefits administration go, but for practical purposes, there isn’t a reason to not go by “Cecilia” for workplace correspondences. And there certainly is no requirement to put “Sean” on the resume, which is largely a self-marketing document. The only matter of concern during the hiring process is during the background check phase, where your ex-BIL may have to inform your employers of other names used.

    4. Person from the Resume*

      I bring no expertise, but I actually think it is better to go in as Cecilia day one rather than start as Sean while planning to transition. Everyone at her new job can get to know her as Cecilia from the get go.

      OTOH, I agree that maybe she should have started the interview that way. I acknowledge the difficulty of the decision, but I’m a planner uncertainty can bug me. But even if I were her interviewer, this would be a minor change. You don’t really get to know anyone very well in an interview.

    5. otherOther*

      Given that employment discrimination is really a horrible and widespread problem for trans women, I think what she plans to do now is the best. If she had known at the end of the offer stage that she intended to start as Cecilia/not in “boy mode” it would have been better to say that than to say otherwise (explicitly) and then change up, but I don’t think she did anything wrong.

      Much like I don’t volunteer my disabilities in a job interview, I think it makes sense to get through as many hiring phases as possible before bringing up stuff like this. Maybe all her interviewers would have been great anyways, maybe one person on a phone screening early on would have clocked her and thrown out her resume without telling anyone why and prevented her from working in an overall-great place.

  177. Nicotene*

    Team morale is low right now in my org. The junior staff (there are six of us) is developing a real “us versus them” philosophy with senior management (two people who have been here the longest and make all the rules top-down). I sympathize that things are mishandled, but I think the junior staff needs to either pursue reasonable steps or STFU … I definitely don’t want to sit here day after day in our open office while they complain about these two people. I’ve got my own morale issues so this isn’t going to help me. The two leaders don’t really want to change so I don’t think a big culture shift is forthcoming. When I try to redirect us away from complaining it just makes me unpopular like I’m little miss sunshine / suckup. Any scripts out there? I’ve tried “I think these b*tch sessions are just making us more unhappy, and they’re bad for new staff” and I’ve tried “what are we going to do about it?”

    1. Lily B*

      I think you have to accept that you can’t stop your coworkers from complaining, but you can decide not to participate. As long as you excuse yourself with empathy and a sense of humor, they’ll respect that:
      -“You just reminded me how badly I need some coffee. Anyone want one?”
      -“Y’all are making it really hard to obey my throw pillow that says ‘Positive Vibes Only’. And I’m already struggling to “Live Laugh Love”!”
      -“Yeah, XYZ Situation is tough, and I’m kind of worn out on talking about it. Mind if I go back to listening to my headphones and dreaming about the day I win the lottery?”

      1. Nicotene*

        These are good scripts! Thank you. Maybe a little humor can get us all over the hump.

      2. Knork*

        “I’m kind of worn out on talking about it” is really great phrasing, I’m using that.

    2. Argh!*

      You could complain to the two bosses & get everyone in trouble! You would be enemy #1 but at least you’d have peace, and in the long run the morale would improve.

  178. Stacey McGill*

    Hugging at work … sigh. Am I crazy for being bothered by this, a week after the fact?

    A colleague of mine retired recently. We’ve always been friendly and have worked together for more than a decade, but I never considered us work besties or anything. On his last day, he came to my office to say goodbye, and it was all very touching and sweet.

    Until he went in for a hug. No problem, right? Saying goodbye is one of the few times it’s OK to hug at work! But this wasn’t a quick hug at all. He just lingered … and lingered … and lingered, even when I was pulling away. I kinda panicked and didn’t know what to do.

    I still feel dirty and gross about the whole thing. I know he doesn’t have much in the way of social interaction outside of work and is probably really damn lonely, but it felt wrong and inappropriate. I may never see him again, or if I do, it will be so infrequently that I don’t think it’s worth making a confrontation out of what he thought was a nice gesture.

    (Except that it was not-so-nice. Apparently the same thing happened to another coworker. We’re both women in our thirties and he’s the same age as our dads.)

    1. downtown funk*

      Am I crazy for being bothered by this, a week after the fact?

      Nope. I was still bothered by inappropriate touching by someone for more than two months later, like full body shudders when thinking about it or even just randomly. This sounds worse than what I had, because you actually knew this guy and presumably had some level of social trust with him. And then he used that social trust to push you into this.

      1. Stacey McGill*

        I think that’s why this is so upsetting. We’ve worked together for a long time, and I had never ever gotten a creeper vibe from him. It did feel like he took advantage of the situation.

        1. downtown funk*

          Those are so bad because suddenly you’re second-guessing every single interaction you ever had with him and looking at other people going “is this the day that person decides to cross the line”…

          …and by general you, I mean me.

          1. valentine*

            Until he went in for a hug. No problem, right? Saying goodbye is one of the few times it’s OK to hug at work!
            Problem! You don’t have to be receptive to anyone’s body, in any way. You seem focused on what’s right for work, not what’s right for you. The problem isn’t that he wanted a hug. The problem is you didn’t want one or you wanted a brief one and this felt more like the comedy thing where a person simulates making out by turning their back to the audience, crossing their arms, and moving their hands up and down their sides like a second person is caressing them.

            what he thought was a nice gesture.
            Or not. But his intentions don’t matter. A good person doesn’t take advantage of people, especially not of much younger people. A good person wants you to feel comfortable, especially with them, and looks out for you like any good neighbor. So: asking for consent, pleasantly taking no for an answer, and reading and responding to body language. For all we talk about using our words, cues are a massive part of communication.

    2. Lily B*

      Sorry this happened to you. Lingering hugs are just vom to the max. And everyone knows they are not appropriate at work (of course this guy waited til his last day).

      Since you have no interest in staying in touch, I’d agree that the best thing to do is just shrug it off and file away a mental note of “do not be alone with Bob” in case you run into him again.

    3. Argh!*

      Crazy, no, but do try to move on. He’s gone and you don’t have to deal with him again. If someone else tries to do it in the future, you’ll be better equipped to put up your hands and say,”uhhhh let’s just shake hands.”

    4. Alianora*

      Nope, not crazy. Even if he meant well (which is possible, some people are just not good at hugging), it’s totally reasonable to be uncomfortable with unwanted touch.

    5. Insignificant*

      Ewww! A long, lingering, lingering, lingering hug that didn’t end even when I was pulled away would totally skeeve me out and bother me for a long time and I would never think of them in the same way again. You aren’t crazy for being grossed out a week later!

    6. Not So NewReader*

      Sometimes when something still bothers me a while after it happened, I find that building a plan of how I will handle it if it happens again is very helpful. I don’t mean with this guy, because you said you will probably never see him again. So just having an idea of what you will do with someone else if it happens again, could help to strengthen your resolve over this.

      If you can’t think of anything else to say, I have gone with, “Okay that’s enough of that. I am good here.” I step back while saying this. While this may seem kind of tame for some folks, I found that it was a plan I could actually follow through on. Probably other people will have better ideas.

  179. The Hamster's Revenge is asking for opinions*

    I’ve been on dozens of interviews in the past couple months and I’m a bit burnt out, but trying to remain optimistic.

    Background: I interviewed yesterday at a small industrial shop, owner ran (3 generations), 85 employees. It’s trying to turn around from certain death by getting rid of troublemakers and hiring plenty of new blood. I passed my interview with HR and the plant manager with flying colors, apparently, but I will face the owner in an interview middle of next week. Laying aside the obvious issue of the fact I’m a woman maintenance mechanic with 27 years of experience and the owner is “extremely old-school” and that I’m applying to basically be his shop foreman…foreperson…maintenance team lead! There is no maintenance manager and there are only 2 maintenance mechanics at this point, who are very young and ‘home grown’ in that they have high school educations and learned everything they know from actually doing the work.

    Issue: The job was sold to me by my recruiter as “maintenance mechanic”, but they really need a shop foreman who can do maintenance planning, facilities planning, technical writing, training, etc, etc and also be able to fix broken stuff (the easy part). They acknowledge that they need someone who can instill some culture and attitude adjustment befitting a professional, skilled trade shop. I can do all of these things because I have before and the HR and plant manager understand this and want me to come aboard.

    Question: Would it be wise to prepare a short written assessment of the issues that were presented to me in the first interview and how I would address them, should I be hired, to give to the company owner when I interview with him? He knows he has issues on the floor, but I’m not sure if he’s tapped into the finer points of ‘industrial maintenance culture’ and how many tools there are for getting lower-end blue collar workers to be engaged with their work so they can have professional pride. I also need to help him understand that the job he wants filled is worth a lot more than the wage range which was presented to me (like 20% to 50% higher).

    1. Not A Morning Person*

      You have a great idea, but maybe instead of giving it to him in the interview, during your interview, ask him what he sees as the biggest challenges and his expectations for this role, then use your prepared ideas to discuss how you’d want to approach those challenges, but don’t give him the document yet. You can then ask him if he would like you to prepare a plan for addressing those challenges and use what he shares as part of that plan and send it to him after your interview. I think sending it after you talk with him works better because if he’s as old school as you anticipate, then offering advice you’ve prepared before you speak with him and get his input might come across as too much, too soon and he could be offended by it. But if you prepare it in response to his concerns, it may be more well-received and supported.
      Good luck!

    2. cat slave*

      I would totally prepare for discussing the issues, but I wouldn’t present it to him as a written document. Just discuss it.

  180. Bad Hare Day*

    My partner, “Sam,” is dealing with a difficult employee situation at her work (located in California). Sam is the second-in-command at Dave’s Teas. “Beth” is employed at Dave’s Teas as both an independent contractor (teacup maker) and salaried employee (supervisor of teacup studio). She’s been an independent contractor for years and was hired as an employee about 8 months ago.

    About 2 months ago, Beth took the other teacup makers on a field trip and did not inform the main office. Dave was touring a potential teacup client and when he went to show off the teacup studio, no one was there! Beth was asked to implement email notification of the main office when she is going to be out for a partial or whole day. The main office workers follow the same procedure. Beth has refused to do this and they’ve had several tense, multi-hour meetings where she complains about this practice and the other procedures that she views to be a waste of time. Sam has told her that they will take her recommendations under advisement, but for now she needs to follow the procedures as outlined. Beth then responds with multi-paragraph emails saying that these requirements were not described to her in her job offer or contract, they weren’t required of her in the first 6 months, the company is not considering her input, and it’s a waste of her time and the company’s resources. Her tone is quite adversarial. She’s also claiming that they keep changing expectations and demanding a complete list of all the policies and procedures. I thought I remembered reading an AAM column about this–something to do with employees who want a complete list of every possible requirement/situation or who violate the spirit of the rules and then say “well you never told me I couldn’t do X.”

    We are in an at-will state (CA). Sam looked up Beth’s original employee contract and not only does it outline the out of office & timekeeping procedures, it also says that the job description/requirements are subject to change at any time and “other duties as assigned” language.

    I think Beth should be fired but Dave doesn’t want to–she’s their top teacup producer.

    1. Argh!*

      There are steps to take before firing, including revising the contract/job description, updating the employee manual, and using progressive discipline. Beth could be more dangerous out of the organization than in it. If Dave isn’t Beth’s direct report, he should talk to her boss, and set out guidelines for all employees to follow (such as keeping outlook calendars up to date, using “away” messages, etc.).

      Sometimes guidelines start with just one person who needs to have rules in writing, but they do help in the long run if work is being impacted.

      …. and other than that day, work really is being impacted, right? Otherwise she’s correct to consider it a power trip.

      1. Bad Hare Day*

        Dave is the owner of the company. Sam, my partner, is the second in command. Dave often refers to Sam as “the boss.” They have a flat structure so I’m not sure that Beth has an actual supervisor, but Sam is definitely above her in the hierarchy and has the power to fire & hire. It’s a small company with a limited number of salaried employees (<10) and many more independent contractors.

    2. Delta Delta*

      Let me make sure I understand this.

      Beth took everyone out of the office and didn’t tell anyone. The way to tell everyone would have been by using… email. She feels having done this would have been a waste of time.

      Then there have been multiple multi-hour meetings and multiple multi-paragraph emails about this using this procedure?

      Maybe Beth ought to work somewhere else if she’d rather fill her time that way.

    3. CAA*

      Sounds like this is a problem between Dave and Sam. Dave wants Sam to manage Beth, but he won’t give her the authority to actually fire her. Without that, Dave is just cutting Sam off at the knees. Sam has talked to Beth multiple times and Beth has made it clear through her words and actions that she’s not interested in performing the job as it’s been defined. She knows Dave won’t let Sam fire her, so she has all the leverage. I have been Sam in this situation. Talking to Dave (repeatedly) didn’t work, and I ended up quitting.

      Is Beth willing to go back to being an independent contractor with autonomy over her work schedule? If she is, then maybe Dave would agree that taking her on as an employee was not the right thing for the business and they should go back to the previous status quo. If both Beth and Dave won’t support that solution, I think Sam should probably start thinking about finding her next job.

      1. Bad Hare Day*

        Beth seems confused (perhaps purposely so) about the difference between independent contractor and employee. She actually ASKED for this role to be created for her as a salaried employee role, but she is still acting like an independent contractor. There have been a lot of recent crackdowns in our state about companies hiring independent contractors but treating them as employees. I suspect that she’s using that to her advantage here.

        What I’ve said to Sam is that Beth seems to want all the benefits of being an employee (salary, healthcare, 401k) with none of the responsibility and to retain the flexibility of being an independent contractor.

        1. fposte*

          Maybe, but it’s a moot point unless somebody tells her what the current expectations are for her and makes it clear they’re a requirement for her to keep her job.

          1. valentine*

            I don’t understand how they distinguish their treatment of her when she is both. If I were Sam, I would’ve left after the first multi-hour BSfest where Dave let Beth hold court instead of telling her to shape up or ship out.

    4. The Man, Becky Lynch*

      She should be fired but that’s the problem when you hang your hat on someone, acting like they’re not replaceable like Dave is. He’s willing to deal with her shenanigans, so she will always pull them.

    5. LuJessMin*

      Beth sounds like my BIL – on his first day at a new job, someone told him he didn’t have to clock out for lunch. At the end of the day, someone else told him that yes, he should have clocked out for lunch. Next day, he didn’t clock out for lunch. Second person came up to him and told him to clock out for lunch. He refused, saying he was told on first day he didn’t have to. Second person was co-owner of business. He didn’t finish out the day.

      1. Not So NewReader*

        ugh.
        However, I have worked places where everyone thinks they are the boss of me. If the co-owner did not identify himself as the upper boss then I don’t blame BIL for just saying that he was confused by the contradicting instructions. My sympathy goes way down though if BIL knew this was the co-owner and/or if BIL refused as opposed to asking for clarification.

    6. Not So NewReader*

      Then put Beth back to just producing teacups. Tell her it’s not working out in the new position and she will be returning to doing what she does best: teacups.
      Sam could beef up their resume resume, just on general principles…

      But Sam can also tell Dave that Beth will unravel and eventually destroy the company with her word-picking and all her misunderstandings plus her insubordination.

  181. No deadline*

    What do you do if the boss asks you to complete a project, you do, and they say you’re not fast enough?

    1. Anonymous Educator*

      I guess it depends. Did your boss give you a deadline to begin with? Does your boss have a sense of how long it takes to complete? Do you know why your boss said it wasn’t fast “enough”? In other words, does your boss just think you’re slow? Or did the project have to be delivered to someone in order for something else to be done, and that something else was time-sensitive?

      1. No deadline*

        No, boss did not give a deadline. He said that he could have finished it within X hours, though he has years of experience doing the work. I don’t know why he said that I wasn’t fast enough. I don’t know. My coworker would be slower than me, so I don’t know why I’m in trouble. No, it wasn’t time-sensitive.

    3. Not So NewReader*

      Ask him what he thinks is a reasonable time frame for that project.
      Then I would start looking for ways to streamline my work so I could at least begin to reduce my time.

      This is probably not a popular answer but for me I try to constantly be looking for ways to do my work more efficiently and more accurately. So since it is my norm then the boss’ comment would not phase me too much, UNLESS his time frame was UNREAL, as in no one could do it. And I have had that happen also. In this case, if the boss routinely has unrealistic time frames then it’s probably time for me to move on.

      OTH, maybe on a different day, I would ask the boss for a couple pointers to speed my work up a bit.

      1. MissDisplaced*

        It may not be a popular answer, but I think this is also the right answer. Though ideally, this should have been brought up upfront by boss that it was needed by x-time.

        But I think asking boss what they think the reasonable time for the project should be. And asking for clarification and/or priorities /or even pointers as to how to achieve this time frame. It’s possible boss knows an easier/better way to do it.

  182. AnotherAnon*

    What are some things you’ve done to prepare yourself when your boss is leaving and may/may not be replaced while at the same time your department is getting a new director?

    2. Lily B*

      1) Think about the tasks your boss does now that you don’t have as much visibility into. Ask him/her to explain the process or show you how to do them in case you are asked to after they leave.

      2) Use the opportunity to take on new responsibility and try new things. If there is something you’d like to do more or less of, now could be good timing to make that change.

      3) Dust off the ol’ resume, take some of your contacts out for coffee, and get as prepared as you can to launch a job search in a few months. Just in case.

  183. Rock Prof*

    I’m posting this almost a year before I need it, but I’m hoping that gives me a lot of time to research and plan. Next spring, I’m going to be teaching our geology major’s senior seminar class. Students generally take it junior or senior year but not always right before they graduate. It’s a 1-credit, once a week course for 14 weeks. In the past, it’s gone just wherever the professor wants, sometimes focusing on reading research papers, making field guides, making an online portfolio, or talking to alumni.

    I’m thinking of covering some of the following: making a resume, CV, and cover letters; finding jobs in your field; applying to graduate school and assessing graduate programs; talking with alumni and local geo/environmental professionals; and communicating science to different audiences (this is very nebulous right now).

    If you have any experience in non-academic, professional STEM fields, what do you think would be most useful? There is a separate class that helps prepare students for the ASBOG and other professional certification programs, so I don’t need to worry about that (thankfully, because I’d probably fail it). I also don’t think that making an online or other kind of portfolio is that particularly useful.

    1. Rocky McRockface*

      Hi! Recent-ish (2017) geology grad here! Currently working in hydrogeology/consulting. I definitely would have found a seminar like that to be really useful. I think things like resumes and cover letters, as well as general networking advice would be really helpful. Also some general background on what fields people could consider going into (mining vs. O&G vs. consulting) and what a typical day in those jobs actually look like and advice on how to break into those fields would have been cool. When I graduated I knew that consulting was a thing people did but I really didn’t know what that entailed until I had an internship.

      Discussion about applying to grad school (and getting funding!) is also a great idea, I really had no idea the process worked until spring of my senior year.

      Honestly, I could have also used a lecture on basic professionalism/the differences between school and work environments. I have definitely struggled with knowing when to ask questions/ask for help since school had me trained to always figure things out for myself regardless of how long it took. Similarly, it’s been challenging not getting consistent, regular feedback on my work the way I did in school. I think someone spending an hour or two talking bluntly about those kinds things when I was still in school might have saved me a lot of trouble, even though it’s probably obvious to most AAM readers.

      1. Tathren*

        Seconding all of this. I graduated with a geology degree back in 2015 and it would have been immensely helpful to have a course like this, especially to provide background on a variety of fields and jobs. My university was located in mining territory and our entire emphasis was on mining jobs or grad school. I moved away from that area and found myself having NO idea what other jobs I could even do with my degree, let alone how to go about finding them.

        A discussion on grad school would also be good for junior year students, but I found by senior year most people in my graduating class had made up their mind about going to grad school or not. It also might be too late for those students to apply any new knowledge, if they’ve already submitted applications by the time they take the course. If you do have a grad school section, can you offer alternative information or assignments for students who wouldn’t find that information applicable? I know it would have been really frustrating for me to have to do a lot of work focused on grad school when I knew that was never something I was interested in.

        Definitely don’t have the students make a portfolio. It’s not relevant to geology jobs and they won’t need it. But it would be helpful to go over writing samples in general and discuss what sort of samples would be acceptable to use when applying to jobs. That threw me for a loop when I started submitting applications and I cringe to think about some of the terrible papers I sent employers at first!

        1. Rock Prof*

          Thanks for your input! Also, thank you for validating my dislike of portfolio-focus.
          I think this is the nature of being at a small, regional university, where the bulk of my majors are first-generation college students or veterans, but most of our students who ultimately go to graduate school end up working for a few years before even applying.
          I’m not sure what I’d be going assignment-wise for the unit, but I’m thinking the graduate school talk will really focus on the logistics of applying (like, take the GRE, find schools, etc.). But if I do any assignments, I would have something alternative for students with no interest in graduate school.

    2. AnotherAlison*

      One of our executives recently presented to our alma mater on salary negotiation. He shared what was/was not negotiable, techniques, and actual salary averages for engineers 1-6 at our company and typical years of experience that correspond to those levels. It was so useful, I saved it for myself even though my career probably can’t be helped at this point! Also, as demonstrated in this example, my alma mater brings in industry guest speakers for similar types of seminar classes. I think that is helpful for students, and it takes those sessions off your plate.

    3. otherOther*

      I’m not in geology specifically, but this is something I’ve noticed in my STEM (technology) industry work:

      No one has any ability to think about ethics in my field. Their ethical reasoning is about as advanced as what I saw in highschoolers. I see this both in basic personal attitudes/actions and in terms of how your works professionally will affect people. If your program doesn’t already have a required ethics class and if ethics discussions aren’t an included part of all classes in your program, spending some time considering ethics as specifically encountered in your industry might be very good.

      I suspect that a lot of science focused courses have more discussions on ethics, but if that isn’t the case, that’s a great thing to focus on. I’m not sure what the specific ethical implications of your work would be directly, but going into that explicitly can help a lot. Even people I encounter who are able to differentiate in their personal lives between “this is legal, but mean and shitty” and “this is a good thing to do”, I often see assuming that anything legal in their professional lives must also be ethical.

      1. Rock Prof*

        This is excellent! I can definitely find some time to cover ethics. Our students don’t have any requirement on it. But I think ethics will be able to fit in well, particularly when you have a mix of students studying geology because they love the environment and some studying it because they want to work in mineral/fossil fuel extraction.

    4. VAP*

      Can you ask people with a range of different jobs to come in and talk to them? When I was in my STEM PhD program, we had a lunch seminar where each week we just had someone with a PhD in our area come in and talk about their job. It was super useful–we learned about salaries, what kinds of experience would make you competative, what the day-to-day was like, how stable it was (tenure vs on someone else’s grant, etc), how you got promoted within that field, how they got that job, etc.

  184. Anonymous Educator*

    Small pet peeve: people asking for help, but first asking “Are you busy?”

    I get that people are trying not to impose too much, but just by walking in and interrupting whatever it is I was doing, they’ve already imposed upon my time and concentration, so they might as well ask for what they want.

    I just don’t find “are you busy?” a helpful question. If the real question is “Are you too busy to help me my problem?” I don’t really know the answer to that, because I don’t even know what the problem is. Some things may take priority over others. Something you ask may be urgent or trivial. I don’t know. If the question is “Are you busy at all or just twiddling your thumbs” again, that has no bearing on whether I will help you or not.

    My recommendation for people who don’t want to impose is to just send an email explaining what your problem is. Then, it won’t interrupt what I’m doing. And when I eventually get to looking at it, I can determine whether that takes precedence over other things I had planned that day. As long as you’re walking into my office and interrupting me, just tell me what you want, what you really really want.

    1. Anonymous Educator*

      If the real question is “Are you too busy to help me my problem?” should be If the real question is “Are you too busy to help me with my problem?”

    2. Argh!*

      Some people say “Do you have a moment?” If you translate “Are you busy?” to “Do you have a moment?” in your head, you’ll be less annoyed.

      Stopping someone from saying something polite isn’t going to make your situation better. You always have the choice to answer, “Yeah, I’m kind of swamped. Is this something we can discuss via email? or should we set up an appointment?” Do that often enough and the unwelcome interruptions will stop.

      1. Anonymous Educator*

        I usually just respond with “Sure. But how can I help you?” It’s just weird, because the question serves no useful purpose. If they want to be polite, they can just ask their question nicely.

        1. Natalie*

          I think you might be taking it a little too literally? I don’t use the actual words “are you busy?” but I do ask people if they have [time] to discuss [thing] before just launching into it. I’m basically asking them if they can change tasks right now, and the answer to that may well be no, they cannot. The exchange definitely serves a useful purpose.

        2. Argh!*

          If you’re annoyed because your work is being interrupted, then it’s on you for not being honest with the other person. If you really do want to be interruptable, then you’re getting what you want, right?

          1. valentine*

            Accept the opening to tell them to come back later or to email you and you’ll read it when you break at x:00.

    3. A Simple Narwhal*

      Oh I hear you on that. The few times I’ve been actually busy and asked them to wait a few minutes to wrap things up, they’re shocked and look visibly put out. Or they just plow right on ahead with their request and then get frustrated that I didn’t fully absorb what they said.

      I feel like “are you busy” is the work equivalent of “how are you doing” – they don’t really want to know, it’s just a formality.

      Oh but the people who IM or email ahead of walking over? *chef’s kiss of appreciation*

      1. Anonymous Educator*

        I feel like “are you busy” is the work equivalent of “how are you doing” – they don’t really want to know, it’s just a formality.

        I definitely prefer people just asking how I’m doing.

    4. Lily B*

      I like to respond with something along the lines of “Yes, but I’d be happy to let you know if I have room to help with something.”

      1. Anonymous Educator*

        That’s a cool response. Doesn’t really fit with my personality, but it’s always good to have more tools available in the toolbox.

        1. Argh!*

          Try to think of your workplace demeanor as your “persona” rather than personality. It’s part of how we manage our work, and sometimes we have to do what feels unnatural to us.

    5. fposte*

      This is like the oft-studied question of how much small talk is appropriate for a business conversation, and the answer is “it depends on culture, region, and individual.”

      For every Anonymous Educator who wishes people would just walk in and say “Where are the magenta files?” there is an Educator, Anonymous who will fume “She just walked into my office and asked ‘Where are the magenta files?’ without even asking if I was busy!” What they’re doing isn’t wrong; it’s just out of step with you (and maybe your office/culture; that I couldn’t say).

      1. fposte*

        And I just saw that you’re the same commenter upthread who’s uncomfortable with the people saying “How will we survive without you?” I think you may just be somebody who prefers very literal communication, and that you’re going to regularly run into people who just don’t.

        1. Anonymous Educator*

          No, I don’t really mind non-literal pleasantries. I just like ones that have established norms. For example, “How are you?” has a fairly well-established response of “I’m good. How are you?” However, “Are you busy?” doesn’t really have a good canned response that everyone is familiar with.

          I don’t necessarily want people barreling into my office and saying “Bring me these files.”

          But that’s not usually what happens. Usually someone walks in the office and says “Hi” or “How are you?” and we exchange minimal pleasantries and then I say “How can I help you?” and then we go from there. Only a small handful of folks come in and the first thing out of their mouths is “Are you busy?”

          1. fposte*

            Then develop your own canned response. “Not too busy for the boss” or whatever. It really is a pretty established opener, so I think you can just take it as “Hi, how are you” level of template and go from there.

            1. Not So NewReader*

              Yep. People are just going to keep doing this. I would gather some coping tools. Matter of fact I have, when I hit the irritations that get in my way of going through my day. If you think about it, the irritation does more to impede your work than the person who is saying dreaded X.
              It’s been helpful to me to tell myself that we don’t get to pick other people’s words for them. It has also been helpful to me to remind myself that I probably routinely say things that I think are polite and I am annoying others also.
              Perhaps you can train your brain to think, “They are being polite in the ways they know how.”

  185. The Dread Pirate Buttercup*

    I’d just like to vent: my new job is my favorite in thirty-five years so far: great people, great managers, great clientele. It’s actually been one of the most profitable businesses of its type in this region, in large part because we’re in a business with an obscene turnover rate and we had hit the sweet spot with privileges and benefits and could actually retain staff and do a little more with them than just manage the churn.

    However, we’ve been acquired by a new corporation, who have obviously over-leveraged themselves. They’ve cut free food without adding anything but the privilege of voting on the dining room name. They have a hiring freeze in place (my ten-person department has lost four people and we’re about to lose two more, and they are sending us pointed memos about how our wait times are up — literally — 2% from the same time last year and we should stop faffing about). There are rumors of charging for parking (we are NOT in a transit-friendly location — I walk to work because taking the bus would literally take longer and my co-workers are terrified for me) and they’ve started to question how much toilet paper we use. People whose uniforms don’t fit anymore or are damaged are being told, “Sorry, we can’t help, not even it if you want to pay for it yourself.” The customers are seeing cutbacks too, and there’s this whole wearying element of “No, losing these privileges is fun! You should be excited!” across the board that just makes the whole thing insulting.

    The old timers say that this has happened before and the fellow who runs things always manages to get things back on track, but I’m prepping for layoffs and eliminations, just in case.

    1. WellRed*

      Any company that starts monitoring toilet paper usage is a company you need to leave ASAP.

    2. Jerry Vandesic*

      Obviously the new dining room name should be “The Room Where We Used To Eat Free Food.”

  186. Masquerade*

    It seems like cutting nails at your desk is a big no-no, but how about applying deodorant?Should that be done in the restroom or is refreshing it at your desk ok?

    1. downtown funk*

      I can’t imagine a way to apply deodorant that doesn’t disrupt your clothes unless you’re wearing a tank top so, yeah, I’d say that’s a bathroom thing.

    2. noahwynn*

      IMO, any grooming task should be done in the restroom or at least away from public view. So if you have an office door you can close that’s one thing, but in an open environment I would step out for a minute.

      1. valentine*

        Yes. Unless you are, say, five minutes and a card swipe from a private area.

        And the problem with nails is it’s all the nails; it’s the snip-snip sound 2-24 times. Cutting just one (1) jagged edge or hangnail would be fine, especially if you make an effort to muffle it.

    3. The Dread Pirate Buttercup*

      IMO, it depends upon the office culture. I’ve worked in warehouses where it was considered downright gracious, and one super-toxic workplace where it “excess” time away from your desk — including washing your hands for “too long” after you went to the restroom while you were on the clock — was considered to be theft from the company.

      But in general, 1. I think it’s good to wash your hands between applying deodorant and handling things that others touch; 2. if you aren’t actually experiencing a (cough) fragrance experience in the moment, my understanding is that deodorant is most effectively applied the night before for most people.

    4. The Man, Becky Lynch*

      Do you have a cube or an office?

      If you have your office, just close the door. I’ll cut my nails and put on deodorant all day long in here, come for me, I’m not scared!

      If it’s an open office or a cube, then go to the bathroom just to give yourself the privacy.

  187. Lizabeth*

    I need help on how to tell a co-worker that I don’t want to hear “all” the details of her upcoming double mastectomy over and over again. So far since I’ve been initially told about it I’ve heard about it two more times in detail. Yes, it’s awful, yes, it’s shocking and upsetting and yes, this is probably her way of dealing with it. So she gets a pass this week but that’s it.

    Suggestions? This is a person that you have to do a verbal newspaper swat on the nose to get her attention before she “might” listen to what you’re saying. If you’re lucky…

    1. Nicotene*

      ugh my sympathies are with her here since she’s going through something tough and as you say this can be a way of processing. I would frame this as a “me problem.” – like, “I’m sorry, I’m really terrible at hearing about things like this, I’m going to have to excuse myself from the rest of this, but I’ll be sending you good thoughts.”

    2. Insignificant*

      Could you say that hearing the details of invasive surgeries makes you feel squeamish so you’d like to be left out of future discussions on it? A lot of people don’t like hearing about “gory” type stuff so I can’t imagine she’d think you were being rude or anything.

    3. Not So NewReader*

      Just general stuff I use when people repeat themselves:
      “Oh I remember you telling me about this… sorry this happened to you.”
      “Yep, you told me this…. so sorry.”
      Sometimes I jump to the punchline and effectively steal the punchline: “And that was when the aid forgot to bring a bedpan, right?”
      You might be able to work in a redirect, “Gee, Sue, this is awful. I am afraid I am not of much help though because I have never had this life experience. If there is a way I can be supportive in our work, please let me know.”
      You get to your breaking point: “Ya know, Sue, maybe there is someone at the hospital you can talk to about this, it’s really beyond me.”

  188. vincent adultman*

    I work in an office of about 30 people in a very time-sensitive, collaborative job. By necessity, we have a meeting every morning to go over our priorities. We also have a couple “brainstorm” meetings every week to – the goal is to pitch new projects and creative ways to tackle them so we can get started on them early. But I’ve noticed that the brainstorming meetings tend focus on broad, vague topics and tend to generate a TON of ideas (some good, some meh) that we can’t necessarily act in a timely way because of our staff size. I was wondering whether people have any suggestions for how to run brainstorming meetings in a way that is both efficient but doesn’t stifle creativity and constructive debate. Thoughts?

    1. Not A Morning Person*

      What do you do with all the ideas that come up? Part of the next steps after brainstorming include evaluating all the ideas based on several types of criteria: time, money, resources, viability, SMART, or other criteria to either eliminate or select ideas for further research, consideration, testing, or implementation. Maybe you are doing that and still not able to get what you are looking for, but sometimes that’s just the way it works. The golden idea doesn’t come along all that often.

  189. De Minimis*

    Anyone in California ever file a waiting time penalty on a former employer? I’m about to do this for the job that I left a week ago–just got paid today and they still have yet to pay out my vacation.

  190. That Girl From Quinn's House*

    Hi Everyone!

    I’m in the midst of switching my career around, and I’m debating the difference between roles as an admin (which are plentiful, with my skills) and roles as an individual contributor (which are less plentiful, because I am trying to switch fields.) I’m concerned that once I take an admin role, it’ll be impossible to get out of admin roles.

    Should I avoid admin roles in favor of non-admin roles? Is it possible to do admin work without being forever pigeonholed as an admin? Especially if I set myself a time limit before starting a job search again?

  191. medium of ballpoint*

    I’d love to hear people’s recommendations for quiet computer keyboards. I currently have a Jelly Comb wireless keyboard that advertised itself as quiet, but most definitely is not and needs to be replaced. Thanks!

    1. noahwynn*

      AmazonBasics wireless keyboard is super quiet. The keys are a bit mushy feeling for my tastes but it made my SO happy at home that they didn’t have to hear my typing.

  192. Barb*

    What do you do when you hear a coworker giving another coworker completely wrong information? I’m the type who pipes up and says, “I couldn’t help overhear your conversation, and I had this situation last week, and the answer to your question is X.”

    Reactions from my coworker I was correcting indicate that I may have been rude in doing that. Thoughts? In this particular situation, the incorrect information would not have been a catastrophe, but would have caused a lot of unneeded work/wasted time.

    Does it matter if the coworker is junior or senior to you? (maybe I shouldn’t have said anything because he was senior to me?)

    1. Insignificant*

      If someone was giving me wrong information (or if I was giving someone wrong information), I’d be really grateful if someone corrected it, and I think the way you worded it was polite so I’m not sure why your coworker would have thought you were being rude.

      Does the coworker generally bristle anytime you suggest something or question something? Maybe they’re insecure about their authority/abilities or take everything that isn’t blind obedience as an insult? I had a supervisor before where when I was new I asked a few questions related to conflicting instructions I’d gotten from other people or just wanting to understand a task I was assigned better, and they’d literally just repeat what they told me to do in an angry voice instead of answering so I guess I was just supposed to follow orders and not think about it.

    2. fposte*

      Piping up is situation and person dependent. It can be a problem if you’re regularly piping up about other people’s conversations rather than this being the only time you’ve done it in twelve months; it can be a problem if you’re correcting somebody and don’t have the whole picture, or if your timing is bad, or if your phraseology compounds the intrusion. Was this something that was going to happen immediately, or could it have waited until the conversation ended, whereupon you could grab the senior person privately and say “Sorry, I couldn’t help overhearing. Would it be helpful to hear a shortcut I found on that?”

  193. Lucette Kensack*

    Just a heads up this this thread is about work issues. You’ll get responses if you post on the weekend open thread, which is about everything BUT work.

  194. MidsizeNonProfitGal*

    I have a question, and I’m especially hoping for some insight from HR folks, about references. My company recently switched to a policy of not allowing managers to give references at all. To avoid lawsuits over defamation, etc., apparently. But doesnt this seem REALLY unfair to past or current employees? How is one supposed to get a new job without being able to use your current or past manager as a reference? Is this normal operating procedure, or is it something I can reasonably push back on? What have other people whose companies have done this used for references?

    1. fposte*

      Are they still going to ask applicants for references? How do they justify the double standard?

      1. MidsizeNonProfitGal*

        Honestly, I don’t know! I’m baffled by it. We asked for references on that last person we hired, although they checked them after we made the offer…

        And just to clarify, we are allowed to confirm dates worked, nothing more.

    2. Insignificant*

      At my last job, I was required to supply three references and they were all called before I was officially hired. After I was laid off I was told the company’s policy was to never give references and I can only give out a phone number to some random company that will confirm dates of employment. Feels really crappy that they require something they don’t want to provide themselves.

    3. Eleanor Shellstrop*

      I worked for a very large, very magical company that did this, and my solution was to ask one of my coworkers who wasn’t technically “above” me but had been there a lot longer and was no longer working at the company when I asked her. But yeah, agreed, this is a shitty thing to do!
      I am also interested to hear from HR people about how common this is. I wonder if it’s a big corporation thing?

    4. Antilles*

      It’s not unheard of, but it’s really dumb. First off, it’s not good for your employees, because it makes it hard for them to get work in the future. Secondly, it’s really hypocritical because presumably your company does check references, so it’s pretty odd for you to simultaneously believe that references are important enough to check but not important enough to provide. As for what to do, if it’s still new enough and you have the clout to raise concerns, you certainly can mention these points (maybe don’t directly say “hypocrisy” though) and see if that sways them at all.
      For employees, how it goes if your company won’t provide reference is typically this: (1) Candidate tells interviewer that the company refuses to provide references and will only confirm employment dates, (2) Interviewer nods and asks if there’s someone no longer affiliated with the company to talk to, (3) Candidate provides the name of a former manager or friendly co-worker from that company who you interacted with even if they weren’t your direct manager.

      1. MidsizeNonProfitGal*

        Do you think this looks bad to companies, like potentially you couldnt find a manager to speak highly of you? It doesnt really matter for me because my managers have all left the company and I report in directly to the board, but I worry for my team and former coworkers!

    5. Natalie*

      In my experience these policies are very common – every company I’ve worked for has officially had one, but I’ve never had a manager that cared to follow it. That said, I’ve also had multiple managers move on to different roles as well, at which point they obviously don’t care about their ex-employers policies.

    6. Jamie*

      I have worked for two places with this policy and my pushback accomplished nothing.

      Fortunately, due to my position I almost always knew someone was being let go before they did and if they were someone for whom I’d be glad to give a reference I made sure they had my personal contact info.

      It’s a very stupid policy.

    7. Someone Else*

      My experience has been that this is an extremely common policy, but is very rarely strictly enforced. So everyone is TOLD to only confirm dates of employment, and that’s what HR does, but if you speak privately to a manager and they agree to give you a glowing reference…they just do. There’s no reason for the head honchos to know, and they generally don’t. It’s not secretive per se, but also no one goes around flaunting it.
      Some companies with these policies would take action against someone going against it, but I’ve never worked for one.
      In my case, the last time I left a company with this policy I used one former manager who no longer worked there as a reference, and actually used my current manager as a reference (we were both looking to leave and were very open about it with each other because that place SUCKED). So with the latter, the manager didn’t really care if they got fired for being a reference, but it was also unlikely to happen in that case.

  195. Scared anon*

    Am I being bullied out of my job? New boss of 2 months keeps suggesting different departments to work in, keeps raving about coworker and how she “won’t fire her” and tells me that I’m not working on enough things. She praises me one day, then yells at me the next. Wtf?

    1. fposte*

      Ooh, no fun. Assuming you’re in the U.S. and not Montana, she doesn’t have to bully you if she wants you to leave your job, but I would also start thinking about other possibilities, because whether she wants you to leave or not, I think you might not want to stay, because she sounds mercurial and upsetting.

      You might consider meeting with her to say “Could we discuss where we are on my job performance? It seems like some things you’re pleased with, but then some times you’ve seemed disappointed. Could we identify areas you’d like me to be stronger and and some targets I could aim to reach?” (BTW, is your co-worker getting the same praise/yelling dichotomy?)

      1. Scared anon*

        Afterwards when I saw her, she had this big smile on her face. It made me sick. It’s like she just wanted to make me feel bad or something. She just wanted a reaction.

        1. fposte*

          I think that’s going with the interpretation that makes it the hardest for you, though. She shouldn’t be yelling, but it’s not necessarily just because she wanted a reaction. Talk to her about your performance, and especially if it really is just you that she’s doing this to, start looking elsewhere, but no need to consider this anything other than somebody who’s bad at managing.

          1. Scared anon*

            Just yesterday, she praised my coworker and I, saying that we both were doing great jobs! What changed in 24 hours? I don’t get it….

            1. fposte*

              Her husband cheated on her. Her medication is having side effects. Somebody in her family died. A mistake was made today that was really, really bad. I could go on.

              Ultimately, it doesn’t really matter. I think you’re stuck focusing on the hot-and-cold thing and that’s keeping you emotionally enmeshed here. Take a breath, step back, and plan a plan of action, not of reaction–you will start looking for jobs and/or ask on Monday to meet with her.

              1. Scared anon*

                I can’t afford to quit without another job, so I will suck it up until I can get out of there. My plan of action is to send out as many resumes as possible this weekend. I also have 1-2 phone interviews scheduled for next week.

    2. WalkedInYourShoes*

      I am going through that right now. Friday morning was your awesome. Then, Friday afternoon was why did you do this? Why did you not include me? Why did you not follow the process? To survive the day, I thought this person is starting to get dementia or alzheimers (no offense intended to those that suffer from it), it just reminds me of talking with my in-law who can’t remember the positive conversation and nitpicky about the little things. Ugh! Frustration. So, I responded with accurate information even with pics and timestamps to respond that I did. In the meantime, I cannot work in a passive-aggressive bi-polar (again no offense intended) environment, so I applied to 3 more jobs today. Remember, your new boss maybe what I just described and they don’t change “A leopard never changes its spots.” Go with your gut, write things down, document. That’s what I have done and provide responses. I do not recommend calling it out, because your boss is probably aware of what she is doing. You can control you reaction but not her actions. We are here for you!

  196. Jasmine*

    We own a company which requires our employees to go to customers homes and interact with customers. I have an employee that will keep the crew later and talk to the customer about their side business and “handyman” work they do. How can I address this in a policy?

    1. fposte*

      My first thought is that you don’t need a policy; you just need to tell him to knock it off ASAP. But then I thought with some kind of contracting work this might be okay, if his sideline isn’t a competition. If that’s where you are, your policy is that he can leave a card, but all arranging of other business can’t be when he or anybody else there is on the clock for you.

    2. AdAgencyChick*

      Why does it need to be a policy if only one employee is doing it? I would address it with him and him alone, and impose appropriate consequences up to and including firing if he refuses to do as you ask.

      1. Antilles*

        This, especially since if you do a policy without addressing him directly, there’s a non-zero chance that he’ll assume the policy doesn’t apply to him or is just general or “I agree, but see, our client showed interest and I don’t want to be rude…” or etc.

    3. The Man, Becky Lynch*

      Fire him immediately, he cannot be trusted. He’s brazen AF to keep your crew around late, costing you money and trying to pester a client for more work for himself. That’s unacceptable and against most codes of conduct, which perhaps you can update yours to include that in there. No solicitation to your customers allowed.

      I would never have your crew back if someone hung out and tried to hustle me for for side gigs, yikes how uncomfortable.

      That’s standard for crews who work at a customer’s location. He’s bad news.

      This reminds me of all the guys who suddenly tried setting up their own fencing companies while on the bosses time. They even poached crew members at times. Nope nope nope.

  197. Domingo Santana*

    I work in a very VERY casual environment in terms of dress code. I work in a shared services role and am interviewing for a role in a different department next week. How should I dress? It’s assumed anyone wearing a suit in this building is a banker or a lawyer or trying to buy the company. But I also don’t want to look too unserious and casual for a role I really want. Thanks!

    1. EddieSherbert*

      My work is really casual as well, but I occasionally present for clients and choose to dress nicer for that (many people don’t? It’s weird).

      I usually do black skinny jeans with flats (or boots depending on weather) and a nice blouse – like a plain button up or something simple and patterned. You could do that, and then also throw a suit jacket over it for your interview if you want!

    2. Catsaber*

      Follow the guide of more structure = more formal. You could still wear jeans and a blouse, but choose a stiff straight-or-wide leg jean that looks more like a trouser, and a more structured blouse or button up. Pick woven fabrics over knits (especially stretchy knits). Pick a leather loafer over a sneaker.

      1. Catsaber*

        The goal being, you’re still wearing jeans + top combo but it’s just a *nicer* version of jeans + top. Or whatever you typically wear in your office.

  198. EddieSherbert*

    I posted a mini-rant a couple weeks ago about what a sh*tstorm my office has become due to a shortage on the Customer Service team (we’re down 1/3 of the team)… and there’s just no end in sight.

    Still no new support technicians hired. They had another interview today that they’ve already decided not to offer a job to. The additional hours on the customer service line for all the other departments (including mine) have been miserable. There is a ton of inter-departmental tension. Everyone seems to have a very short fuse about everything. I’m frustrated and just exhausted about the whole thing.

    Adding in the knowledge that it takes a good 4-6 months for new customer support techs to get the hang of everything… Yikes. Yikes. Yikes!

  199. Tinker*

    Bleh.

    I’ve been stating my intention to start a job search, with varying amounts of vehemence, for the past few months and I think I’m actually going to do the thing — I had not been doing it because of some obstacles in my personal life, then I had not been doing it and instead trying to lean into improving the job I presently had. I learned a lot from doing the latter, but I’m now seeing that the improvement I got from that is getting me more to “okay at doing something I basically don’t like doing” than it is getting me into the things I love doing and am to all appearances genuinely talented at.

    Yet, I’m also sad at the prospect of leaving a place that I basically like (and I’m a bit frustrated that my company actually has an intense need for the things I’m good at, but they’re a bit disorganized and I seem to be somewhat typecast as being the other thing that I’m actually not good at), having the usual set of self doubt about “what if I really am lacking in skill”, having the usual self-doubt about “what if I can’t prove that I have the skills that I have” (particularly intense this because the problem I’m having basically centers around that very thing), and am having my imagination run rampant about covertly ogrish new employers in inconvenient locations that end up slaughtering my work-life balance (the presence of which has been one of the admittedly many points I appreciate about my present employer).

    The last time I was looking for work I angsted about the same sort of things for two months, put my resume out, and was snapped up in something like a week by a place that, as it turns out, had been utterly desperate for one of me for a long time and proceeded to have the devil of a time finding person #2. So logically I should probably anticipate success, but my insides are not buying the argument.

    1. Not So NewReader*

      Sometimes the wars inside our heads are far worse than any of the external battles we face IRL.

      Self-checks are fine/healthy. Beating ourselves up is not fine/healthy. We can tell the difference by the outcomes. Healthy self-checks encourage us to modify/correct and we become better employees or better people. This is good. Beating ourselves up makes us go to bed and pull the covers up over our heads. This is NOT good.

      I think I have read enough of your posts to know that if you decide you are going to do well with something you will. Go ahead. Decide you are going to do well with New Thing. You will be okay. Use affirmations. Tape them to the bathroom mirror if you have to, make yourself say good things to you until you drown the war inside your mind. You can do this.

  200. Decima Dewey*

    Hello from the library. Next week, the head of the library system is coming to our branch (I’ll be on vacation) and she’s asked that each staff member answer two questions: “What do you appreciate about your branch?” “What would you like changed/improved?” Good questions to ask. Except we give the same answers every year and what we would like changed or improved stays the same.

    My boss, Mr. Lastname, continues to document Perpetually Late Guy’s issues. Mr. Lastname cc’s me on the emails, and once I read them I wish he’d consulted me first. Mr. Lastname’s grasp of English is fine when he’s speaking (except for some idioms he doesn’t understand), but his written English is not as good. Misspelled words that spellcheck won’t catch (“witch” for “which”), for example. After a contentious meeting today with Perpetually Late Guy, (Perpetually Late Guy was agitated when the meeting ended), Mr. Lastname asked me how to spell “hollered”.

    A story this week about Perpetually Late Guy (PLG) that doesn’t involve his perpetual lateness: two kids got into an argument and Fergus the Guard asked them to leave. Now, when people are asked to leave the branch, once they’re off library property, our interest in their behavior ends. Also, there are rules about staff and children, which boil down to Do Not Lay Hands on a Child. So the kids left the library and resumed their fight outside. PLG left his post at the desk, went out to break up the fight, and grabbed one of the kids. The child yelled for him to let go. Fergus and I told PLG to let go. PLG said that he was trying to keep the child from running into Redacted Street.
    We explained that any passing person who happened to be a mandatory report would have seen an adult grabbing a child who was trying to get away. PLG continued to insist, repeatedly, that he was right to do what he did.

    On a cheerful note, I completed the project from my Community Engagement Training, which was documenting public art in my library. I saw a lot of beautiful murals–there are more than 50 in our service area, honoring the neighborhood’s history, local heroes, etc.

  201. Kevin*

    Highly gifted people in the workforce — how do you stay engaged? How do you stay present and interested and excited?

    1. fposte*

      Can you clarify–do you mean you feel underemployed, underutilized, bored? I work at a research I university and don’t see that giftedness or genius precludes the qualities you name, so I’m wondering if it might be more of a fit issue.

      1. Kevin*

        Um, yes all of those things? Maybe I need to be asking more of a specific question like, how do I find work like that?

        I don’t know how much I should go into this…

        Ok I’m 30 now. When I was in high school, I ran out of AP classes and ended up taking classes through the state university my junior and senior year so I could have enough credits to graduate high school.

        In college, I thought everyone would be smart… but I found things extremely boring and slow. I had to fight with my counselor to get out of remedial math because they didn’t know that “Abstract Algebra” was about a billion classes after “Algebra II”, which he didn’t see on my transcript.

        In my college classes, everyone would spend 10 hours studying for a test and struggle through it. I’d spend half an hour beforehand and get the highest grade in the class.

        I made the mistake of not going to a top university, but I thought that it didn’t matter if you didn’t go to an Ivy. I thought everyone in college would be smart and I would get the same opportunities with a degree.

        I’ve struggled a lot because I can’t seem to find a good work position. When I was new to the market, I’d be taken advantage of without knowing it, because I can work so much faster than other people — for example, my first job out of college, I was doing 2x the work of my predecessor, and I was paid the least amount in the entire company (my boss accidentally sent me the salary sheet).

        My friends who went to Penn, MIT, Harvard got recruited out of college and made twice the money I made at my job. They became programmers, doctors, consultants… but I have a BA. If I had waited to take the math classes I had taken in high school in college instead (instead of during high school through the college) I would’ve qualified for a math minor, but the university I went to didn’t allow you to transfer credits like that so I would’ve had to retake everything.

        I just feel super frustrated because I can’t keep a job anymore. I forced myself to stay at my first two jobs for 2 years and 1 year because I thought that’s what you had to do. But now, I’m just trying to do anything that I can stand.

        I don’t know who to talk to about this… I’ve tried psychologists, but they tend to focus on rapid-fire questions and diving into my childhood and it’s not actionable. I also feel like they don’t really understand the challenges I’m facing.

        I want to be able to DO SOMETHING. I’m tired of being frustrated and wishing I would’ve done something differently. I want to do something different NOW.

        Do you have any advice?

        1. Kevin*

          I’m also only now “remembering” I’m smart. I think being put down for so long kind of made me feel like I was wrong to think I was smart before. Like, I belong in the places I am because that’s where I am.

        2. Asenath*

          Forget the past and what others who made different choices are doing (unless you can learn from them, but it sounds like you’re just noticing that some of them went to Ivy League schools, and I get the impression you’re not in a position to start again with an undergraduate program). Look at yourself and your own life. Do you have a type of work you like more than other kinds? If so, lay out plans to get into that field, perhaps while working at something you really dislike and taking courses on the side. Setting goals, and knowing that unpleasant work might be short-term can help. If not, pick the least objectionable of the jobs you can get in your area, do the best you can with it, and see if there’s some options for promotion or at least steady employment there. You may benefit from consulting a counsellor specializing in career planning, if you can find a good one. Get some outside interests – there’s nothing wrong with doing the best you can at a job you don’t much like to keep a roof over your head, while getting personal satisfaction from devoting your free time to something more challenging that you enjoy.

          And set goals – actionable ones, with interim goals – on what you want to achieve on the job and in the rest of your life. If you discover that your initial goal, to, say, get an interesting job in llama farming is no longer of interest since you’ve discovered you hate llamas, keep the job (for a while, anyway), do it really well, and make a new goal, perhaps one involving a switch to a new field, or one involving moving into an aspect of llama farming that doesn’t involve dealing with llamas – farm accounting, or tractor repair or something else.

          It’s useful to look back on your previous decisions and figure our which ones you don’t want to repeat – but spending too much time wishing you’d done something differently in the past can prevent you from moving on with something new now.

          Good luck. Lots of people have been very disappointed with their jobs, and lots of them have recovered and found satisfying lives – although sometimes doing things they’d have never expected. You can do it too.

        3. BadWolf*

          Are you interested in coding since you like math? Have you looked into any coding boot camps as a way to supplement your degree?

          1. Kevin*

            Yeah but I couldn’t afford them because I’ve made so little money in my career. I can’t pay the student loans I already have.

            I tried a couple free intro courses online but they seemed kind of… well it seems like coding is just learning a language. You just memorize syntax. There wasn’t anything about it that interested me, but I didn’t get past the free version. But I didn’t get past the free version because it didn’t interest me. Do you have any recommendations?

            1. Troutwaxer*

              Learn a programming language and get involved in a Open Source project. Learn to enjoy the intellectual experience of solving problems. If you don’t want to join and Open Source project, do your own project, solving a problem which interests you. There are both beginning and advanced books available for every well-known language out there… etc. Dig a little deeper and become part of the culture.

                1. Troutwaxer*

                  If you’re as smart as you say you are, you won’t need classes. What you really need is a book programming language ____________ and a problem you’d like to solve. And learn to use git.

                2. Someone Else*

                  I agree with Troutwaxer. You are not wrong that programming (at first) is just learning a language. Memorize the syntax, sure, to get started. Are you comfortable doing that? Because if you can pick that up quickly, then you get to the fun part where you apply that syntax to accomplish something.

                  I went to college for not-very-hirable subjects. I read one book on one programming language and within 3 months outpaced my boss who’d been learning said language for a year. If you learn as easily as you say you do you should excel at this pretty rapidly, and if you hate it, you’ll know quickly. You probably don’t need classes.

                3. Kevin*

                  Interesting!

                  In that world…. do they care that they know more than your boss? Like do you actually find work or get promoted, etc for knowing stuff? Like, if you just put on your resume that you *know* it, can you get hired for it?

                4. Kevin*

                  Like in other fields I’ve found they don’t care if you know how to do stuff — they care more about your previous titles, etc. I thought a class was the only real option because then I could get a *certificate* to help me get hired. I guess programming world is different?

                5. Bob*

                  Hey, I recommend the MIT OpenCourseware class Introduction to Computer Science and Programming. It teaches you Python. I do not actually use coding for my job can’t speak to how useful Python would be to your career, but I found the lectures and homework to be challenging and engaging.

                6. Someone Else*

                  Hi Kevin,
                  Out of nesting but to your previous question to me: in my case it led directly to a promotion, basically a restructuring of our department where boss decided he didn’t need to know how to do (specific thing) anymore and reassigned all current and future projects involving that to me. That involved both of us getting title changes, me taking on significantly more challenging work, eventually outgrowing the role and going elsewhere.
                  So the knowing it wasn’t the accomplishment. Taking your question very literally, yes it is on my resume that I have XYZ skill, but I didn’t get subsequent jobs just because I listed said skill. I both have the skill and learned the skill on the job, which made using it part of my job.
                  THAT SAID, I’m sure there are entry level jobs in my industry intended for folks right out of school who wouldn’t have any experience other than class projects, so it is possible to get hired with minimal or unrelated experience+ the right skills listed, presuming you actually have said skills (which might mean taking a skills test as part of a hiring proccess).

            2. LaurenB*

              Okay, there are people out there using computer code to, I don’t know, build robots that perform surgery. Do you think those people are bored every day at work? That they are still looking back on the injustices they faced in college?

              But you out of hand reject coding as too simple for your dazzling intellect and don’t even try getting past the basics. Do you think this may indicate a pattern of why you find so much of your life boring?

              1. Kevin*

                Haha you’re great.

                Yeah, exactly

                I didn’t have the big picture perspective so it was like “Draw a box” and I was like, where is this going? Because the program class I was doing didn’t really give it a context.

                1. Someone Else*

                  This is another reason not to use a class. They’re going to give you examples that are mean to be easily and illustrative, not interesting to you. If you just teach yourself with a book you can come up with your own examples and then learn by doing something you already want to do, not draw a box.

            3. Clisby*

              “Coding” is learning a language. Once you’ve learned one, you can learn others. Programming involves learning how to analyze problems and produce solutions. The final, deliverable solution might very well mean coding, but that’s just implementation. The real work is in figuring out how to solve the problem.

        4. Nicki Name*

          Can you name anything specific about your past jobs that you did enjoy? Like, maybe you liked talking to people and helping them with their problems, but not a bunch of tedious form-filling that came with it? Or maybe you despise human contact, and enjoy something that lets you work quietly by yourself?

          Is there a specific field you wish you’d gone into?

          1. Kevin*

            I mean, the thing I liked most about my jobs was learning how to do things. I liked finding solutions. Once I know how to do something, then I find fun in making things more efficient. Then it becomes very tedious.

            I’m very proactive. A couple jobs ago I enjoyed finding solutions to things, but I was advised by a leaving employee to stay out of the way and be as quiet as possible.

            I like being around people, and it’s difficult for me to do something like data entry with no human contact. I tried sales — I enjoyed learning the process. I was good at it an my managers loved me, but I was paid minimum wage. That was my last job. I had another sales job that paid more, but it was also no interaction — it was just sitting by myself (literally, by myself), creating charts and emailing people.

            If I could have a job that involved learning things and figuring things out, that would be great. I’ve tried for years to get into consulting, but my background does not reflect my abilities, and despite multiple attempts, I’ve never even had an interview. (I don’t know if I would be able to keep up with the schedule of 100% travel anyway though.)

            I don’t know if there’s a field I wish I would’ve gone into. I used to think programming, but that’s a lot more to do with the job market than genuine interest.

            1. Fellow quant*

              “I was advised by a leaving employee to stay out of the way and be as quiet as possible.”

              “Be as quiet as possible” is usually terrible advice. And if you’re in a job where it is good advice, it’s time to leave that job. Leaders are “quiet as possible” people.

              1. MissDisplaced*

                It’s not terrible advice if you want to keep your job! It’s called survival instinct.
                The American workplace does not generally value those who “speak up” unless they are in very high-level executive positions.

            2. LQ*

              What about being a BA? Business Analyst it’s a programming adjacent job where you work with business folks and technical folks to learn about a problem and then describe a solution in a high level of detail? A lot of working with people and finding solutions. There’s also some process improvement work that you might find challenging. I will say if you like finding solutions you usually are going to need to be good at implementing if you’re trying to start from the ground up. Having great ideas and being willing to put in the dirty work are different.

              1. Kevin*

                I’ll look into that.

                As I mentioned before, I WANT TO PUT IN THE WORK. I WANT TO HAVE STUFF TO DO DURING THE DAY. I DON’T like finishing my work in 2 hours and just sitting there. So maybe that would be good. I haven’t heard of that but maybe I can get a certificate online. Is that how to get into that?

                1. LQ*

                  There is a certificate and a BOK and a test and all of that. Most of the people I know who’ve gotten into it have come through either having a sort of technical job but falling more into the land of being good at talking with the nontechnical folks, or coming from entry level and customer service kinds of jobs. So it could feel like a fairly normal transition when looking for jobs if you had that.

                  https://www.iiba.org/

        5. fposte*

          Oh, that sounds frustrating; I’m sorry.

          I think people who were really, acknowledgedly smart as kids can have a complicated relationship with intelligence and success as adults. One complication is that, as Alison has noted, what you get rewarded for in school (in many people’s case in college, in your case in high school) isn’t always valued at work, so you have to recalibrate your metric. Another is that “high potential” is a curse as well as a blessing–you’re the high-budget movie that has to earn hundreds of millions to be considered a success, while the indie flick next door can call itself successful if it gets $10M. Ultimately, as an adult, I’d say smart is good, but it has to be part of a package–it doesn’t matter on its own nearly as much as it does when you’re a kid.

          You say maybe you were wrong to think you were smart, and maybe you’re in these places because you belong there–but you can be right to think you’re smart and also be perfectly well suited to a job that doesn’t pay a ton. The “belong” phrase makes me wince a little, because it seems like a belief that people are assigned tiers based on their smarts, and that if you’re not more financially successful than people you were smarter than, that means they’re actually smarter than you. But success doesn’t map that way, and neither does intelligence.

          You seem haunted by the decade you think you should have just had in comparison to the one you did. But plenty of people go to state schools and are doctors and programmers and consultants, and plenty of people graduate from the Ivies and underearn and hate their jobs. Yes, a big name school will open more doors, but not many bachelor’s degrees will actively close doors to you. So I’m guessing other things were going on that made you decide not to be pre-med, or to transfer when you found out it wouldn’t work, and it’s also possible that you’d have hated the endless administrative BS that comes with being a doctor–it sounds less to me like that was a dream than that is a way of categorizing a success that you want and don’t have. There is no job without BS. There are just jobs with BS you mind less or that’s balanced out by stuff you really like. Basically, while I can see that some choices might have been better, I think you’re measuring yourself against an illusion there rather than a reality, and it’s hurting you a lot.

          For your current challenge, when you say, “I want to be able to do something,” do you know what you mean by “something”? What “something” would satisfy you? Would it need to be high income? Would you be willing to move? Have you been working toward a “something”? When you say you “can’t keep a job,” do you mean you walk away from them or you are fired? If you’re fired, do you understand why and do you think you can mitigate it? Has there been any element of work–not even a whole job, just an element–you did at college or since graduation that you really enjoyed? Can you map out things you’d love about a job, things you could put up with about a job, and things you find soul-crushing in a job?

          I know you said you’ve tried psychologists, but I’d consider a discussion with a primary care doctor just to see if depression, anxiety, ADHD, things like those that can compromise your long-term view, might be in play.

          1. Kevin*

            For your current challenge, when you say, “I want to be able to do something,” do you know what you mean by “something”? What “something” would satisfy you? Would it need to be high income? Would you be willing to move? Have you been working toward a “something”?

            -Literally ANYTHING. The worst part about any job has been doing NOTHING. Literally, working an hour or two a day, and having NOTHING else to do. EVERYWHERE. At least my first job they allowed me to work more, even if i was paid less than people who did half the work I did.

            When you say you “can’t keep a job,” do you mean you walk away from them or you are fired? If you’re fired, do you understand why and do you think you can mitigate it?
            -Basically — solving this problem!!!!!!!! At my last jobs, I created proposals outside of my responsibilities. The president thought they were awesome. He sung my praises. They he gave the project to someone else. Then I was fired for not staying out of the way.

            Has there been any element of work–not even a whole job, just an element–you did at college or since graduation that you really enjoyed? Can you map out things you’d love about a job, things you could put up with about a job, and things you find soul-crushing in a job?
            -Yeah I answered this for someone else.

            AT THE MINIMUM, I would like to have work to do during the day. This is very hard for someone who is so much faster than everyone else, apparently. Because it’s not just one job. It’s all the jobs.

            And if there isn’t enough work for me to do all day, at least for me not to have to “pretend” like I’m doing something!

            1. LCL*

              Don’t laugh now. Have you ever been interested in working with your hands? The way you describe yourself sounds like some of the tradespeople I have known. Maybe learn carpentry, where you can work for yourself.

              1. Kevin*

                Hmmmmmm.

                I looked into jewelry making. They have it as part of the community college, but you have to enroll for an associates degree to take them. I didn’t consider it as a career but just as something fun. Maybe I should think about it more seriously.

                What made you think carpentry from what I said?

        6. Fellow quant*

          Frankly, why not apply to do a PhD in mathematics? (And they can find job opportunities as quants on the Street if they don’t want to stay in academia.)

          And for any students reading this thread: yes, going to an elite college does open doors for recruiting to good first jobs. Which lead to good second jobs. That is not to say, of course, that OMG OMG OMG you can never be a success without going to an Ivy, or that going to an Ivy is a guarantee of success, or that OP cannot find a fulfilling career path — but it does set you on a trajectory.

        7. LQ*

          You can’t keep a job or you keep leaving jobs? Those are different kinds of problems.

          I’ve always stayed engaged by being engaged. I don’t mean that snarkily. I mean I find a problem that I can tackle and do that. It’s not always an ok thing to do but it’s mostly been met with success for me.

          Example: I worked an excruciatingly rote job. Talk to people all day doing sort of little “training” sessions, review documents, etc. Most of the other folks in the job would do 4-5 of these 30 minute sessions a day. I went…why not 10 because that’s not really that hard, and I get bored…so bored…, it doesn’t start sessions until 9 am, and if you do the actual session in like 28 minutes you have 2 minutes to do paperwork. Pretty soon I was doing more sessions than most others, then I started making the entire team I was on do more and the location I was at was seeing more than the rest of the metro area combined…Then they gave me cooler work that was harder, and then more cool work that was harder. And now I’m here at work at 6:30 thinking about the cool work I’m too busy to do but still getting a lot done. And yes, you’ll get paid the same as the person doing WAY LESS WORK. I don’t know how you fix that other than getting promoted. You don’t get paid in most jobs per task. But if you think of it as being taken advantage of then you either need to aim to get promoted/ask for raises or drop this and do something where you do get paid by the task, which is pretty unusual.

          I’ve also changed the actual work I do fairly often. I’ve only really worked at 2 companies post college but the jobs changed radically every 2-3 years so I’ve been pretty happy going from, “What the hell am I doing?” to “I got this” to “I want something new!”

          You can do something different now. Reframe the problem. (You may want to look at Designing Your Life which I found useful.)

          1. Kevin*

            Well, for some reason the companies I’ve worked for don’t appreciate the thing like in your example.

            I’ve been let go for things like that.

            I’ve never been promoted, only fired.

            The better I do, the more I do, the more efficient I am, the more problems I solve:
            -I get fired
            -I take on double work, and don’t get paid more.

            Even my first internship — I finished a project in Excel in 2 hours and it took my colleague the whole rest of the day. I had NOTHING else to do. Most of the projects were like that. He looked busy working all day, I looked like I wasn’t doing anything. He got hired, and I didn’t.

            I’ve never been able to get hired at a large corporation, though I’ve tried!

            I think the main issue is… the bosses think the jobs are hard. For me it’s easy. It creates a riff… like… I’m secretly overqualified and didn’t tell them. So when I take on more work, it’s like I lied. Like, my boss was surprised when I rewrote document for him. He TOLD me to re-write it for him, but he seemed genuinely shocked at how good it was. Which you’d think would be good. But I was fired.

            I get asked a lot, “Why are you here?” At my last job, it was constant. Like, other people can’t believe I’m not higher up than I am because I know how to do most of the things that the people higher up know how to do, but I haven’t done it at a job, so it’s not on my resume.

            1. LQ*

              The hardest thing for me is realizing that one of the things I’m not great at, that I’ve had to put the most work into is relationships and soft skills. And if you’re never being recognized for doing those things, you may need to stop and look at your relationship and soft skills…skills. It doesn’t matter how good you are at a Task, if you aren’t good at the Job which requires much more than just doing tasks.

              “Does not play well with others.”
              It’s a thing I’ve always had to fight in myself and based on your responses here I wonder if you’re a bit the same. The thing that has helped me most in this aspect is turning relationships and soft skill building into daily tasks that I can accomplish. It’s imperfect and I’m still very much in the “Does not play well with others” land, but I’m much better off. It also creates work (where there is work, but very poorly defined work).

          2. Kevin*

            Oh, the other thing that happens I forgot to mentioned, is I get harassed and bullied so bad I’m forced to quit.

    2. Not So NewReader*

      For the bigger picture have you thought about talking with a life coach?
      It will take a minute to find a good one. Try to find someone who is similar to yourself so they tend to have a closer understanding.
      Life coaches work in present time, where as counselors tend to talk about the past. I agree that talking about the past is of no help for finding what to do with your life.

      I am not gifted. I never had advanced courses or anything like that. I DO however insist on mastering my current job, whatever that job may be. Bosses (not the toxic bosses) depend on me a lot because I just have that type of wandering and curious mind that delves into anything and everything. And the dots connect in odd ways for me.

      I would recommend looking for jobs where there is a diversity of work and a wide number of angles to consider in the process of doing the work.

      Consider that you may actually need a job where you expend some physical energy as well as mental energy. You just might have too much energy to be tethered to a desk all day. I was that person for years. Sitting at a desk was my idea of torture. It took a few decades and now I am happy to sit down. Embrace who you are at this time. If it changes then you can change with it.

      My last suggestion is that to some degree with have to make our jobs interesting. Once we are familiar with almost any job then boredom can set it.This means we need to develop something inside ourselves where we create our own challenges. I have stayed at a couple jobs for around ten years. I could do the jobs in my sleep.
      So what I did was look for challenges. Early on, at one job I challenged myself to learn to sharpen lawn mower blades. I can still sharpen lawn mower blades, which makes the people repairing my tractor crack right up. They have to get the blades off the deck for me. When I return with nicely sharpened blades, their jaws drop. It’s a little thing, but I have accumulated a few of these little stories and feel my life has been kind of interesting to me.
      Roll your sleeves up and dig into the nuts and bolts of your job. Find your own challenges, how can YOU grow YOU? What makes you proud of yourself? To me jobs are a self-discipline thing. I have to train myself to get engaged and to stay connected. I have found it ironic that my biggest challenge is to challenge ME.

      I supervised a light assembly production process for years. One of our recurring topics of conversation was what to do when the boredom hits. Production lines are great places to find lots of boredom. Proper rest and good foods help keep the brain engaged and working. Building short term, mid term and long term challenges into your work can help keep you engaged. Heck just lining up the challenges will keep you busy for a bit. Another component is the relationships you have with the people around you. If we have positive relationships with others that can carry us through the lean times. Lean times can mean boredom or it can mean tension/stress.

      If you are looking for excitement in a job, stop. It’s not there, you probably will not find it on a continuous basis. I have had moments at work that were exciting in a positive way. Those moments are few and they are fleeting. More often what I find is that negative excitement, where stress is up, tempers are on the edge, etc. NOT the kind of challenges I wanted. But I accepted the challenge and started trying to train myself to be the calm person in the room. (I have a ways to go yet.)

      I think if you reframe things for yourself that will help.

      1. T. Boone Pickens*

        To answer your original question I started my own company. Cut out the stuff I didn’t enjoy, focused on the stuff I did. Boom, problem solved.

        You sound like a person that would be perfect for the trades as you seem to struggle sitting at a desk all day long. Also, quit dwelling on what you did or didn’t do 10 years ago that ship has sailed. Focus on what you can control today.

    3. Anonandon*

      This might sound stupid and painful – and it very definitely is – but I hope you consider it, because the payoff is huge at the end:
      Have you considered joining the military?
      These guys are always hungry for people with high ASVAB scores and tech skills. There are lots of openings for computer techs, intelligence collectors, cyber-warfare guys, and space-based platforms. I would find an Army recruiter and ask them what a 35T does. Just as an example. Since you already have a degree you could also qualify to be an officer. And trust me – those guys work their *asses* off.
      Here’s the downside: It’s tough, physically demanding, and might be pretty boring. Assignments can be random and unpredictable. You might end up working at a desk, or you could end up cleaning the motor pool, or you might be rucking through a forest. It depends very heavily on what unit you get assigned to. You will inevitably deal with some boring days and some utter morons.
      Here’s the upshot: Even if you absolutely hate it, at the end of a few years you will walk away with the GI Bill. I don’t want to sound like a recruiter here, but the GI Bill is really the best thing the military has going for it. Just tolerate the bullshit and then get out, and you can use your education benefits to train for something you might like better.

    4. Annie Moose*

      There’s a good book that was recommended to me here previously that you may find relevant: Your Own Worst Enemy: Breaking the Habit of Adult Underachievement. I found it… enlightening when I read it. I was one of those people who found grade school very easy, then struggled thereafter to make something of myself, you know? Actually finish something, not just start a lot of things and lose interest. If that sounds like you, then this book might help.

      https://www.amazon.com/dp/B0027KRRGG/ref=dp-kindle-redirect?_encoding=UTF8&btkr=1

  202. Jaid*

    I asked my co-worker to be more mindful of her radio. I could hear it over my fan and it was from her leaving her desk, taking off her headphones. still playing music. She used to get pissed off with other people making noises at their desks, so I thought she’d be OK with what I asked.
    Well, apparently not. According to her, I clock-watch her, butt into conversations, say her name funny (I do, I did and boy howdy I won’t now and she was chill with it at one point), complain about everything and make everything about me. Oh and my food offends her.
    I apologized for the name thing and said I noticed her not being at her desk to turn off her radio, but otherwise did not respond to what she said. I do not do well with aggression and didn’t know what to say.
    Later, I asked my other co-worker if I was as bad at that and she said I wasn’t.
    After texting with another co-worker, she pointed out the this lady has been getting crankier and crankier lately and closing the circle of people that she’ll tolerate.
    It’s a shame, because I do like her, but I don’t appreciate her dumping her aggression on me. She made me tear up and I’m sad that she’s being this way.

    1. The Man, Becky Lynch*

      I’m so sorry you were on the receiving end of that nonsense! You made a reasonable request and observation that regularly tempered people would smile and nod over, even if they didn’t see what the problem was. To just unleash on you is showing she’s nearing the end of her rope, which is sad…she’s going to snap at the wrong person and get fired, that’s usually how that happens.

      I hope you are able to take this on the chin and not shy away from speaking up in the future. Her reaction is not normal and erratic AF! I’m glad you only apologized for the name issue. Seriously, I had someone who used to over-pronouce the first part of my name. Think of someone saying “BEEK-Y” instead of “Beck-Y” it was one of those things I internally winced over but seriously, to explode is incredibly short tempered, she shouldn’t be around other humans tbh.

    2. Not So NewReader*

      Unfortunately, before we retire most of us will see at least a couple good people go into meltdowns, serious meltdowns.
      Workplaces can be tough and life can be tough. We all have our own load tolerances and beyond that load tolerance we cannot add more.
      Send well wishes out the the universe for her, pray for her, whatever it is that you do for struggling people.

      Also know that with some people you know you have made your point if they blow up. I worked with a few people like that. If they were screaming then I knew I had been heard. When they get down off the ceiling, things may change. Or not. Wait and see.

      Meanwhile, you can tell yourself that you have grounds to report her. That was a fairly simple, reasonable request and she went the nuclear route. If you chose not to report her, I think I understand. But I also know it’s important to decide how much of this crap you are willing to put up with. If you catch yourself being worried or afraid to ask her simple things then it is time to loop in the boss. That is totally inappropriate behavior for the workplace. (Or for anywhere, actually.)

    3. Jaid*

      Thanks for your comments! I don’t think I’ll report her, but I will ignore her as best I can. She’s been hanging around our manager a lot recently (after hating on him for the longest time, BTW), and he’s not the best (never acknowledges when I say hi) either. I don’t know what’s going on there…

      It was shocking, because we both have issues with noise, which is why I thought it’d be OK to ask her to turn off her radio when she wasn’t wearing headphones. In fact, she was hot to get another coworker moved because that girl would hum and sing under her breath.

      1. valentine*

        Look at it from her perspective: She’s been tolerating a lot from you and you won’t put up with this one thing from her. (Which, in her mind is maybe a one-off every time she does it, whereas, maybe you complained twice but she’s cast you as a chronic complainer.)

        1. Jaid*

          My behavior hasn’t changed at all during the time we’ve known each other and we were friendly for a long time. I understand her tolerance has changed, but that doesn’t make me a verbal punching bag.

          And the radio thing is very recent, say about a month and a half. Her headphones suck and how she didn’t notice them leaking when she herself is noise-intolerant is what gets me.

  203. Krayon Jam*

    I have been on my job for 5 years. The first 2 years I was doing well and getting diverse and interesting projects. I made a mistake in year 3 and ever since then, my workload has changed. Instead of getting the most interesting projects, I am now doing projects that are essential but mundane. Work that was originally intended for me have been given to my new co-workers. When I ask for more diverse work, I’m told that there is nothing at the moment or that he’ll get back to me when there is something to do. Meanwhile, he’s complained that there is so much work but not enough people on my team to do it.

    I’ve tried to fix my mistake and perfect the work I do, but my situation hasn’t changed. What do you suggest?

    1. fposte*

      You’re five years in the same job with people who aren’t interested in advancing you. While you might be able to have a frank meeting with your manager about your performance and growth possibilities, I think looking elsewhere is your best bet.

      1. Anonymous Educator*

        I think looking elsewhere is your best bet.

        Yes, with five years under your belt at one place, you’re far from a job-hopper, so it’s actually a perfectly fine time to apply to jobs elsewhere.

        1. Not So NewReader*

          Agreed. Your manager holds grudges and pigeon-holes people. This is why he has a backlog of work because he has made up artificial rules about doling work out… you know instead of actually managing people.

          Meanwhile, you could (if you wanted) say something the next time he complains about workload. Speak right up and say, “I am available, I can help.” I would do this just to watch him back-pedal.

          I have to wish your boss lotsa luck finding people who never, ever make mistakes. If they do exist (doubtful) they won’t stay and work for him anyway.

    2. LQ*

      You can try to have a very direct conversation and ask what your boss needs to see from you in order to be able to take on the upcoming Shiny Project.
      But I think you’re likely best off looking for something new.

    3. The Man, Becky Lynch*

      Am I reading this right? You were there for two years killing it but made a mistake and got downgraded to the mundane tasks because now they’ve got trust issues they’re grinding away at three years later?!

      Your boss holds a grudge it sounds like and isn’t interested in giving you another chance. I can’t think of many mistakes, barring tens of thousands of dollars being lost to ever treat someone like that who had an established track record of being awesome and just had an error along the way.

      I would encourage you to look elsewhere and to leave these clowns in your rear-view.

  204. Carrie Fisher's Middle Finger*

    So … I finally found a new gig! This is awesome.

    I am going to need to hand in my resignation, which I have never done, and I don’t really want to have to talk about why I’m leaving. I just want to duck my head and get out. … less awesome, because I know I’ll be asked.

    I know that feedback is valuable and all of that but I genuinely don’t think I can say anything constructive and I am so borderline traumatized by this job I just want to serve out my two weeks and be gone without fanfare. How have you dodged that question, or what vague-and-potentially-unconvincing thing have you said when asked to put an end to the conversation?

    1. Anonymous Educator*

      Are they going to ask why you’re leaving? If so, you don’t have to be 100% transparent with them. You can give them some vague but truthful answer.

      1. Carrie Fisher's Middle Finger*

        They probably will, yeah.

        I’m also not really sure what vague but truthful answer I could give. The truth is “I’m really tired of being treated like I’m an idiot and being told I’m unqualified for my job,” but obviously that’s not going to work. I have absolutely nothing good to say and don’t want to talk about where I’m headed or why I’m leaving.

        1. JanetM*

          Channeling Alison: “An opportunity fell into my lap and was too good to pass up.”

    2. The Man, Becky Lynch*

      You don’t owe them the “truth” of why you’re leaving, you just owe them the professional courtesy of the notice period and “I have an opportunity present itself. I’d like to make my transition as seamless as possible, thank you for the opportunity to work here and I wish you all well.”

      Stick to your guns. Don’t let them pressure you into more details, just stick with “I got a new job, it’s time for me to move on.” they don’t get to know why they drove you away, that’s not their information to have freely.

    3. Not So NewReader*

      I had one boss ask me if I was leaving because of her.
      I said, “Well I started looking around because things were uncomfortable here. But I can honestly say, that does not matter any more because I found something that is actually good for me and might work into a career for me.”
      This worked well for me, she never asked anything further.
      The subtly here is to act like you are totally focused on new gig and not really thinking about the past problems at the current place.

  205. Macedon*

    TGIF! Question: would you put down a MOOC (largely free, self-paced online course supplied by providers like Coursera) on your CV or bring it up as a way to illustrate your knowledge of a particular field while job searching?

    My gut instinct is to say no, but then someone asked how gaining assessed (certified) knowledge from a free class is all that different from doing it through volunteering — and I admittedly don’t have a good answer.

    1. Penelope Garcia’s glasses*

      To be honest no. They tend to be interesting but not that rigorous.

    2. MissDisplaced*

      No. I mean, it might be something you can mention in an interview, along with other things, to demonstrate your interest and dedication to gaining knowledge your field of work, but MOOCs are generally not resume worthy.

    3. Someone Else*

      I would not. If you believe you have actual competence in the skill, list the skill, but the course itself is meaningless.

  206. KeepIt*

    I just want to let this out somewhere cause I know there’s not really a solution but I’m just completely floundering. I’m starting to realize that the career path I’ve started down is just 100% not for me… but I have absolutely no clue what I’d rather do instead. I’m starting to realize that I actually have very little ambition and I don’t even know what you’re supposed to be looking for if you don’t have a “goal” in mind. Every time I go to someone or look at a website for advice about changing careers, it seems like there’s a lot of good advice out there but when I try to think about how to follow through on any of it I just get…stuck. Completely stuck. I’ve been “thinking”/journaling/researching/brainstorming about what I want to do instead but every time its like what I realize I really really want to do with my time is highly unlikely to ever turn into a stable career and it just sucks because I know that my first choice of career has basically always been a non-starter and thus why I’ve ended up doing what I’m doing instead. I know that ~everyone hates their job~ but I’m only in my mid twenties and already finding this entirely unbearable and I don’t know what I’m supposed to do for the next 40+ years so I don’t starve.

    1. LQ*

      There are a bunch of good posts here about “dream jobs” and “passion” at work that might be really worth reading through the comments on. So many people live their dreams, but work a day job that is 9-5 and not a passion or dream or first choice and are still incredibly happy.

      1. KeepIt*

        thanks! I actually perused the AAM archives first when I first started trying to figure this out. I guess my problem is that to have the kind of job that would give me free time to actually do what I want to do, I’m gonna have to change career paths. Mine right now is the “always on call, always working, always traveling, work is expected to be your life” kind, which…I don’t know what I was thinking in the first place when I got into this. It’s everything I hate and the nature of my work is very emotionally exhausting. And I don’t even know where to start on that.
        I started a list based on one article’s advice on job searching that was basically deal-breakers, things I’d rather not do but could live with, and things I’m comfortable/good at/could reasonably do or learn… and it basically disqualifies any sort of job that my skills would actually transfer to. It feels like I’ve been trying to figure this out for years and I just end up more and more miserable. And I know it’s good advice for a lot of people but the whole “you don’t have to love your job!” advice actually makes me feel worse, because I can’t stand the fact that I’m spending most of my waking days absolutely hating every move I make. Like I said – I’m not looking for a solution here anymore! Just airing this out.

        1. LQ*

          Sorry! I hope you manage to find a way into something you can transfer into that’s quieter in all ways for you and lets you have a life you love.

    3. dovidbawie*

      The Ken Coleman Show has a pretty good way of helping people figure out this exact thing. He helps people find that sweet spot where your greatest strengths & biggest passion/interest meet, & more often than not there’s plenty money to be had in that intersection. It’s really helped me figure out what direction I want to go in, career-wise.

    4. Gumby*

      It didn’t work for me but the ‘Ask a Headhunter’ dude recommends a Library Vacation. The idea being you spend 3 – 5 days in the library reading whatever catches your interest in the periodicals section of the library. You start out with People and Cosmo and whatever but eventually move on to specialty or industry-related publications which will tell you where your interests might lie. (It turns out? Though I get exactly zero magazines delivered to my door I am more than able to waste an entire week reading back copies of Reader’s Digest and Newsweek, etc. without being tempted by anything less generic. But I like to read – a lot.)

  207. Brandy*

    There’s a new hire on my team that started on Monday. He ask his manager parentheses who is my report parentheses if he could work from home every Friday so that he could have a “therapy appointment” ( in quotes because that’s exactly what he said and we didn’t ask for clarification) in the morning. He mentioned that this is what he did at his last job.

    I have okayed one day a week working for Home for others on this team in the past, but they’ve always been generally circumstances, as well as individuals who have worked for the company for a period of time and “proven” themselves as able to do the work both in office and remote.

    Are we awful for not allowing this accommodation and instead telling new hire that missing work for his appointment is okay (note that he didn’t even ask about this…) he needs to make up the hours and needs to come into work after the appointment. We would also be open to at some point revisiting WFH but after he is established at the company.

    For those of you that have standing weekly medical spots during work hours- is this a decent response or are we monsters? HR didn’t care one way or the other.

    1. Anono-me*

      It is not unreasonable to expect people to attend to medical care on their own time or on paid leave (excluding work related issues). However you might want to ask if there is a reason that he doesn’t want to be in the office on a therapy appointment day. (Please note that I suggested asking if there was a reason, not asking what that reason is.) Your new hire may not be emotionally or physically able to deal with both people and work on a day that he has his regular appointment. If that is the case, please consider trying to accommodate his work from home.
      Please also keep in mind that regular appointments with medical professionals are often very difficult to get and often just as difficult to change.

      1. Brandy*

        In that case, would it be reasonable to say we’d allow him to leave early for the appointment?

        I hesitate because it’s day 4 of employment and he’s in a role that generally has a fair amount of oversight. It’s a lot more work to monitor productivity if someone is at home, which is why WFH is really on a case by case basis and has historically only been for “established” employees. It’s not dissimilar to a call center role but at a more expert/technical level. WFH was not brought up at all prior to hire.

        1. Sorry To Bother You*

          I think it would be reasonable to ask if you could switch to him leaving early, but if his slot right now is in the morning it may not be possible to just jump to later in the day as that depends on what the therapist has available. I think you should just explain what you’ve said here, and ask him if he can change his appointment to a different day or time that would allow him to be in the office before or after it. But be prepared for that not to be a simple switch for him, bc of the therapist’s schedule, location, his condition afterwards (I was in grief counseling for a while and I would cry so hard in those sessions that I was red-faced and puffy for hours afterwards, so I did a similar thing where I’d work from home the rest of the afternoon), whatever. Explain what your constraints are and ask him for help finding a middle ground that works for both of you.

          Also, I wanna point out– if people have work from home arrangements at the company, it makes sense that he would ask if he could also get that as well. I’m picking up some resentment in your comments about him having asked about this at all, which I don’t think is particularly fair to this guy. Lots of places wouldn’t blink at this request, just because this isn’t how you’d usually handle things in your group doesn’t mean he’s being entitled and presumptuous to ask if it’s possible.

    2. Asenath*

      There might be a reason for it, but it does sound odd. There’s one medical appointment I do often take a day off for – because the timing and location are just so awkward, but it’s not a recurring one. Well, maybe every six months, roughly. When I did go through a period with daily appointments, I got them as early as I could in the morning and worked the rest of the day, usually including through lunch and/or late in the PM.

      You can remain open to the possibility that there’s some reason he does need a full day at home for this, but your request doesn’t sound out of line. If it’s not possible for him, perhaps he can explain – maybe his therapist is located somewhere distant from the office, or he can only get a mid-day appointment, so, with travel time, he could hardly return to work.

    3. The Man, Becky Lynch*

      You’re not being unreasonable in the slightest.

      This is a brand spanking new employee, he has to earn the trust and privileges allotted to others. He doesn’t just get to slide in and dictate you change for him. You are being very reasonable by saying he can leave early for the appointments and make up the time, that’s perfect honestly. He shouldn’t expect more when he’s still wet behind the ears.

      You will breed resentment in others if they see him being new and getting these kinds of generous accommodations and it will make it harder for you to deny other’s requests if they start asking without first being around long enough to establish their track records.

      My only question would be about his doctors location. Perhaps it’s the opposite direction from his house to the doc than it to work? So it’s a long commute? Still, it doesn’t matter, he asked for way too much way too early.

      1. Penelope Garcia’s glasses*

        This really depends on the workplace though. Where I work it would be fine after a few weeks. No need to take it so personally.

        1. valentine*

          I loathe unnecessarily secret rules. You can avoid most “new employee is overstepping” by telling them the work-from-home rules during interviews.

          It’s fine to decline his request. I don’t know how you would ask about the reason without asking what it is. If TPTB ask me “Is there a reason?” that seems snotty and I assume they are asking what it is so they can vote on whether it’s good enough. I wouldn’t trust “Is there a reason? (We’re not asking what it is)” either. Actually, why not tell him what reasons would suffice?

    4. MissDisplaced*

      Hmmm. I’m of mixed feelings regarding this.
      Currently, I have more medical appointments than usual, but it’s a temporary thing. On those days, I typically work from home because the doctor is in the other direction of town from work, but closer to my house, so it actually saves 1-2 hours to not have to drive there from work and back. If the appointment is quick, I just make up the hour or two when I return, which is far easier on WFH time, OR I may use sick time, which must be taken in 4-hour blocks only. Obviously, I’d rather not take 4 hours sick time if I can make up the hour or two!

      But, I also think you’re being reasonable if the employee is brand new, at least until they get through their trial period and get acclimated to the work, with the stipulation WFH can be revisited for their medical appointment once they’re a bit more established. There are many reasons a brand new person should be in-office initially.

      But you know, I really favor you trying to trust and work with the person on this and allow the flex WFH time as long as they seem responsible (you hired them with the assumption they were responsible, after all) and are doing their work appropriately. Being flexible on things like this make you a better employer and retain employees who have special needs and circumstances.

  208. Lena Clare*

    So are you a coffee or tea (or other?) drinker at work?
    Tea and water for me, because I only drink filter coffee and the only stuff they have in work is the instant stuff…

    Speaking of which, does anyone remember Mellow Bird? We have some in work, and all I can say is yuk. It’s like powerded mud.

    1. The Man, Becky Lynch*

      I’m upset and feel personally victimized by the fact instant coffee is a thing in 2019 o.o

      That’s for camping and when you’re road tripping, not for an office. Yikes!

      I drink coffee, tea and energy drinks because I’m a beverage troll. My desk usually has at least 3 of them at any given time. I clean it off each night before I leave. We have coffee/tea/water available and assorted sodas. I bus in my own energy drinks because we’re fun but we’re not all a bunch of forever-high-schoolers like I am.

      1. Lena Clare*

        Lol, our company is cheapy cheapskates. If we ever got filter coffee as standard I think we’d all go into shock. I brought some in once for people to use (I’m going to be a heathen here and say I have to have decaf because otherwise I get ill) and no one took it. I think in the end I threw it away.

        I wonder if the coffee culture is different in the US to here? We definitely drink more tea for starters, I think, and filter coffee seems to be the purview of coffee shops or home machines.

      2. Clisby*

        Eh, at a workplace I would 100% want instant coffee. No workplace I’ve ever been has made coffee strong enough for my taste. Keurig? Totally weak-ass coffee. Drip coffee? Possible, but I’ve never experienced it. Cafe Bustelo instant? Done!

    2. Overeducated*

      All of the things. Coffee and an assortment of teas, depending on whether I want caffeine or am just freezing for the first couple hours of every. Single. Workday. Until, I guess, our accumulated body heat warms up the cube farm.

    3. Marion Q*

      Tea and occasionally Milo drinker here! My company only provides the water dispenser, so I bring my own supplies.

  209. dovidbawie*

    I am being eaten alive by a fungus on my spirit.

    I spent 45 minutes at the very end of the day getting real work done, 7.25 hours of checking minor chores & waiting. Because the production artist for the order I was running fecked up so badly & tried abdicating his responsibility as, “not [his] fault because the art was sent to [him] that way”. Production artists are by definition supposed to ensure the art is reproducible. The salesperson for the order completely reamed him out. The production manager was not happy about how much work+time was wasted.

    And I am dying inside, having spent the last two very happy years as a production artist for a company whose minor accounts started at $3m. When you’re used to running with thoroughbreds you forget how much is sucks to get kicked by donkeys.

    1. valentine*

      You seem overly upset. I understand if it’s astounding, but if it wasn’t an emergency, the only impact on you was an unexpectedly slow day?

  210. Argh!*

    To thin women who work with fat women who have lost 50+ lbs and have 50+ more to go to be at a “healthy” weight — don’t commiserate by talking about how hard it was for you to lose 5 lbs. Just don’t. We don’t want to hear about it.

    /public service announcement

    1. The Man, Becky Lynch*

      Hm. That’s a personal preference really, I don’t care when thin people talk about their weight struggles with me. I know that thin people can be self conscious and suffer from ED, etc.

      In general you shouldn’t talk about weight loss or private issues like that with others/in public if you want to rule out certain kinds of people who will chime in.

    2. Cloudy with sunny breaks*

      Oooo you lost 50lbs? You must be pretty stoked about that. Congrats!

    3. Anonnnn*

      I don’t think anyone should be talking about weight/weight loss much at work. It sounds like you talk about losing 50 lbs at work. Why is it ok for you to talk about just because you have more to lose?

    4. Krayon Jam*

      As a rule, I only discuss weight with people who are similar in size. I think it’s a good rule for all of us to follow.

  211. Bluebell*

    Very late question. Any advice on pricing consulting? I left my position about a month ago and we had left open the possibility of my taking on a project that might last 10 hours. It’s something I’m very good at, and enjoy as well. How do I discuss potential pay?

    1. The Man, Becky Lynch*

      It depends on the field and the complexity of the work. I’ve had consulting go from anything from $150-350 an hour. How in depth is it? Are you going to be in charge of procuring resources or anything of that sort?

      Keep in mind that 35% of that money is going to go to taxes, you’re going to be dinged 12% just as a self-employed individual, plus the other applicable taxes. That’s why consultants charge so much, lots and lots of taxes to account for that otherwise when you’re just working as a regular staffer on the payroll, the company is paying their share of.

      1. Bluebell*

        Thanks for the advice. The company is having a large annual event that I directed for 4 years. There’s a piece of the planning that I’m particularly good at and enjoy, so I mentioned I might take it on, as they haven’t hired my replacement yet, and they are short staffed. No procuring of resources would be needed.

        1. Brandy*

          I bill myself out at $225/hr. I used to make $180k all in (inc bonus) doing a similar level of work. That pads for things like the time i need to spend getting business. I also don’t get nit picky with hours.

          In your case it sounds like you are moving from a FT role to a PT contract gig with the same employer. I’d say if you were making $100k/year doing either a a do at rate for the project since you know what goes into it ($1k- 10 hours @ $100/hr) or bill them hourly.

          1. Bluebell*

            Thanks- Im thinking hourly, because this was the sort of thing that if there’s a last-minute change it can often mean an extra hour or two of work, and it can be challenging to decide when you have the right level of perfection.

    2. OtterB*

      I’ve seen a rule of thumb of 2 to 3 x your previous hourly wage.

      For a short term project rather than long term, you could go toward the lower end. As Becky Lynch says, you’ll have extra self-employment taxes, but on the other hand you aren’t also trying to cover your health insurance, etc.

  212. Keev*

    Very late question but hopeful I can get some advice! Background: I’m graduating in June (yay) and have been looking for my first real life adult job. So far, I’ve only actually applied to one thanks to a lack of appropriate jobs and my exams, so I really only have experience with applying for and interviewing with part-time retail work.

    On to my question, the real adult job I applied for shortlisted me. I got an email from the recruiter on Monday to set up a time for a phone call discussing my experience and the role, and I emailed back pretty late on Monday once I got out of work (around 9pm). I never heard back. I made sure not to schedule anything during the times I had given, just incase she would phone anyway, but nothing. Now, I understand of course people get busy and forget about things, and I did only give times for this past week I could talk.

    Would it be acceptable to email her back with new times for the upcoming weeks or have I left it too late now? Is it common for recruiters to invite you for a chat then not reply, and should I just move on and leave it? Am I way overthinking this?? I’m worried about coming across annoying and out of touch. I feel like this should be common sense but I seriously have no idea how to handle this appropriately.

    1. The Man, Becky Lynch*

      Is this an in house recruiter or an outsourced recruiter? In house typically don’t drop the ball because they’re loyal to the company however third party recruiters are notoriously flaky.

      It’s completely reasonable to reach back out and see if your message may have gotten lost in the shuffle or eaten by the trolls that live inside our electronics.

    2. Amber Rose*

      You can email her once more with your availability. The rule is usually one follow up. After that if you hear nothing, move on.

    3. Darren*

      You should definitely send her an email to let her know your available for the next week or two, and indicate that if she wants times further out then that to let you know and you will see what you can arrange (but that it is difficult to be sure of availability further out than a week or two).

      Beyond that second email yeah if you don’t get a reply then probably best to just leave it at that, if they are slammed and that is why they haven’t been able to arrange it they should email you back once they are freed up to continue the recruitment.

  213. Anonymous Working Stiff*

    Is this really a “worker’s job market”? I keep hearing that because unemployment is so low, it’s a great time to be looking for a new job. But my employer sure doesn’t act like they’re feeling any pressure to retain good workers, and the search for better opportunities is disheartening. I’m not feeling the boom.

    1. The Man, Becky Lynch*

      It depends on your region, industry and positions you’re looking for.

      I can find another accounting job by going out and throwing a stone at this rate around here but if you’re specialized, not so much necessarily.

      It was painstaking to get anyone to apply for our last management position but it’s specialized and it sucks when the unemployment rate is higher, let alone at 3%. However we had a great batch of CSR applicants for the first time ever a few months ago.

      It’s still a new economy and unless people are jumping ship, companies arent feeling any added pressure to up their retaining efforts though! So that’s why your company doesn’t seem to care. They’ll care when they cannot find anyone to take their openings if they have a lot of vacancies. However most companies will blame it on everything else and not take the blame on themselves when retention is an issue.

    2. Mazzy*

      I do think it’s a candidate’s market. I just got through hiring, and on average the applicants had less employment gaps and less were unemployed when applying and most were expecting more money than we’ve ever started anyone at. It was a big difference from my first time hiring in 2010!

  214. Sorry To Bother You*

    If you want to move into personnel and eventually more senior management, where do you start? Is my company’s culture around this… Weird?

    I’m a PM, I’m 30, I’ve been doing what I do now for about 8 years. My current company is a massive multinational one where people tend to stay their whole careers, which makes my couple years tenure especially shrimpy. I’m getting to the point where I’d at least want to move into more advanced stuff within my line of work, and I’ve expressed to my management where I want to go. The thing I keep hearing from them and everyone else at my company is, oh, well once you’ve been here for 5+ years in this more junior work, then you can start asking for more responsibility, and then eventually maybe that could turn into you being mentored towards management.

    The attitude is that when you start here, you’re basically career resetting near 0, the experience you have prior to getting here isn’t super relevant no matter what it is. You have to start from the ground up and “pay dues” for years before getting the level of responsibility you might have gotten at your last job. I’m a PM and only recently have I been given any actual projects that only I am responsible for. It’s not my specific performance, which I’ve been told is great, but that culturally I am considered extremely young and extremely green. I’ve heard from people even farther in their career in other departments that also want to advance that they’re in the same boat, and that this is just the treadmill everyone has to run on hoping that eventually they can make the jump. I was referred to as a trainee quite a few times last year, even. The whole thing is starting to feel bonkers to me– I get that I can’t just jump into being a manager, but I’m not a trainee either.

    I feel like this is stalling me from the kind of career trajectory I would otherwise want, but I can’t tell if I’m delusional in thinking this would be particularly different anywhere else. If I do look elsewhere, I’m not sure what to look for to get towards the right goal, either.

    1. VVM*

      I feel you and I don’t think you are delusional. I’m the same age as you and I have gotten the same push back at my current organization about being too green and too young to be given the responsibility to manage projects. I think part of it is older generation versus newer generation. When I first approached my boss 2 years ago about working out of my classification and wanting a raise to go with the increased tasks I’ve taken on, he reminded me I was still getting my annual raises so I should be happy (you stop getting those annual increased after about 6 years). He thought that because I was getting more money from one year to the next, I should be happy, because that was all he knew in his early career. It took a few conversations but I pointed out that I was working out of my classification, was wanting to advance in my knowledge base and wanted to be compensated accordingly. I showed him job descriptions from other companies with their salary schedule and finally got him to see what I was talking about. Maybe he had to pay his dues but if my peers are zooming up their ladders at other places and getting paid correctly for their work, I’m not going to stay at my employer and be subjected to some old way of doing things. I ended up getting a raise and got a bump in responsibility, which will serve me if I stay where I am at or if I move on to a different employer.

      It’s tough to break into management when there is no intermediate step. If you do decide to look elsewhere, look for positions that are 1 or 2 steps above your description right now. Look at the qualifications and check to see if you can meet them. If you really can’t, what do you need to do in order to qualify? Aim to do those things, especially if they are training or certifications. I’ve done quite a few management and leadership trainings, which will help me get into a more advanced position because my career doesn’t really have a “lead worker” position, so those things might help you.

    2. Anonandon*

      I’m going to be blunt: This is stupid and your leadership sucks.
      (1) Mentorship and career development is your leadership’s responsibility. They should be able to distinguish talented individuals who have potential for advancement, and assign them to a career path that will allow them to advance. A competent leader should be able to provide you a written plan of action that with a five-to-ten year timeline. They should be able to say, ‘Your expected promotion horizon is X years, and to get there you need to do A, B, and C.” It is the leader’s responsibility to provide you with actual goals. Waiting for the older generation to die or retire is not a career goal.
      (2) Refusing to accept previous experience and allow for mid-career moves is an incredibly destructive and short-sighted way to run a business. I’ve been part of organizations that don’t allow people to come in mid-career… Sometimes for good reasons but often not. The biggest problem is the one you are encountering now. If a person is qualified for a middle or senior management slot, asking them to start at the bottom is a good way to keep out new ideas and drive away talented applicants. Which brings us to point 3….
      (3) I don’t know about your industry or your readiness to move, but I would not want to be part of this organization. You could start looking for other opportunities in businesses that are willing to accept mid-career conversions. Keep in mind that you can be loyal to this company for 20 years and they will never be ‘loyal’ to you back. If you see a better opportunity with a different company, you might want to take it.

      1. Sorry To Bother You*

        Thank you for this, it’s how I’ve been thinking but hearing how everyone else talks about it had be wondering if I was naive. Recently I’ve been looking to advance somewhere else in the company, so I’ve been talking to people in different offices looking for opportunities, and some of the shit I’m hearing is bananas. People way farther into their careers than me moving across the country to take step-down roles with no actual promise of advancement hoping that the growth in that office will naturally create a management void they can try to fall into. Folks with 20 years of experience who are just now starting to get some leadership responsibilities on their teams so they can try to get their first lower management role in a few years, because they only came to this company <5 years ago.

        I've been thinking the best option is to bounce, but no one else seems to think this is weird in the slightest. I kept thinking, you know, watch me run thinking I'm gonna get a better deal somewhere else and all I do is reset my counter again.

    3. MissDisplaced*

      Are you with a Japanese company?
      Because this is the culture I’ve experienced, where any of your past experience (even though they hired you for precisely that) doesn’t seem to count for jack squat within the hierarchy of the organization.

  215. Lillyjane*

    Hi All!
    Any advice on not losing hope while job hunting? I am a recent grad and have been job hunting for a year +. I have had a few interviews and two jobs offers that fell through, but overall not many responses. I am following all of the advice found here and that of trusted professionals. Tips and additional advice welcome!

    1. Lena Clare*

      Can you also do a bit of volunteering in the sector you’re interested to help build skills while you’re looking? Keep looking but also take breaks and rest regularly. Develop things you’re interested in outside of work so you can relax too. Something will come up, it always does :)

    2. Marion Q*

      I job hunted for ~9 months after graduating, and only finally got a job around a month ago, so I get it. What helped me was to not make job hunting the primary/defining thing of my life. I realised this seems counterproductive, but it helped me not to take rejections (too) personally. Another thing that helped me was to set a dedicated time aside to job hunt, like from 9 to 3, then spending the rest of the day doing non-related stuff that I enjoy.

      Also support network! I talked daily to friends who were also still looking. We shared experiences and resources, but also talked about non-work stuff. It’s a helpful reminder that you’re not the only one feeling this way, and that most of the factors are out of your control (i.e. it’s not you, it’s the job market).

      Good luck!

  216. VVM*

    I have a question on how I should handle my supervisor. I’ve been working under my supervisor for few years and we have a large workload. They do senior level work and I do more junior level work. Today, he had a bit of a meltdown from being so overwhelmed. He thinks he is spread too thin, isn’t doing a good job with the tasks he can do, isn’t there for other subordinates and coworkers. This sort of meltdown has happened before, with the last one being at the end of 2018. In fact, one of the reasons that I have accelerated as quickly as I have in my position is because I see how overwhelmed he is, volunteer to take on some of his work load, and learn a new task that I get assigned in the future. Unfortunately, it has gotten to the point where 1)the remaining tasks I can learn to do are really quite senior and I wouldn’t do a very good job of because I am not experienced enough and 2)I would like to do my own job and I almost don’t have enough time to do that. I am also constrained by a 40 hour work week so I can’t take on additional tasks. What should I do? I try to be a sounding board for him and it really stresses me out to basically have no power to help. I’ve considered going to the department head (our great grand boss) and at least telling her what is going on, as she has asked us to come to her if problems arise. My boss has advocated for himself to their boss but I’ve never spoken to the department head about this.

    1. Havarti*

      Have you tried telling your boss about being unable to do your own work? It’s nice that you’re helping and the experience gained might be a nice bonus but now you’re both spread too thin. And please tell me these additional tasks came with higher pay. I would caution you, for the sake of your sanity, not to get emotionally invested in your boss’s stress. No, you don’t have power to help because that’s not your problem to solve. HIS job is to go to HIS boss and tell them he needs additional staff or something to ease the workload. That is NOT your job. I would also caution you about going over the heads of your boss and his boss to contact the great grand boss. People usually don’t like it when you do that. Your boss needs to go advocate for himself. He’s the one who’s having meltdowns and overworking you. If things can’t be resolved, you probably will need to get out before you burnout out either physically or emotionally. As an employee, I don’t want to hear my boss complain – I want him to fix the problem.

      1. valentine*

        Stop being a sounding board, especially if you’re a woman. He needs to sort it himself or ask for help from above. Are you enmeshed? This is simply not on you. Don’t assign yourself any caregiving or other emotional roles. He’s having quarterly meltdowns. Depending on the severity, I might go above him to discuss it.

        Do your work as well as you can. If you have extra time, only offer to take something from him if you’re sure his boss or the department head want that. If boss hasn’t been praising you for keeping him afloat, they might consider you overstepping.

  217. Adhara the Anxious job searcher*

    I don’t know how to go about this, but it is basically a ‘getting a new job after a toxic one’ question. It was a half retail/business, and my managers and my coworkers kept in their lanes like you would in a big multi-department business. But from a retail perspective this is bad; like cashiers not knowing how to do exchanges/refunds, or knowing the basic procedure of stock ordering (“We’re getting a shipment on Wednesday” basic). So they loved me because I could switch between departments, even run the store while my manager did paperwork.

    Now I’m job searching, and I find out that my rock star performance there is merely standard procedure in other businesses.
    Do I still go to interviews with that rock star confidence? Or simmer it down with the confidence that I know I’m a good all-rounder and I want to continue that with [interview company]?

    My confidence has been damaged by this: toxic ex job was my first long term job and now I find out I’m just mediocre with no specific hire-able skill set. Help?

    1. Anonandon*

      Look at the bright side: You are now 100% competent to operate in a new setting. Imagine the alternative. What if you were one of those people who had a very narrow vision of their job, and now found yourself under-trained and under-qualified? I understand it is painful and maybe even humiliating to find out you are not as cool as you thought. I feel much the same way when I’m doing great work in my organization, but then I visit an organization where my hard work is not respected and people put off the vibe that says, “Oh, you’re one of *them.*”
      Anyway…
      Asking how much confidence to project is tricky. Nobody likes someone who demonstrates hubris or arrogance. But you do need to be confident that you have certain skills, you have initiative, you aren’t willing to settle for the bare minimum, and you are able to learn new things.
      But here’s the most important part: When you interview for a job, you are selling a product. That product is YOU. Your message is that YOU are the solution to THEIR problems.
      Think about the last time you saw a commercial. Did the guy on the TV say, “This toothpaste does pretty much the same thing as every other toothpaste?” No! He says, “This the best **** toothpaste you will ever buy!” Even though you and I and everyone else knows that all toothpaste comes from the same place and is made from the same stuff, on that day his job is to convince you that his toothpaste does the job better than anything else. You should be the same way.

  218. Amethyst*

    Here’s a new one: I’ve applied for a position at my old job (laid off in November because my job became redundant). This new position will have nothing to do with anything related to my old position, as far as I can tell. How do I diplomatically verify that I won’t be handed off my old work as soon as I start (if I’m hired) in the interview? I’ve made a clean break with my old position; I don’t want to be roped into doing the old work when this new work is only very tangentially related. Also, New Position removes me further from “Brenda’s” poisonous orbit. If I get this job, my time interacting with her will be roughly 0.05% of my day, compared to a hefty toxic dose daily from her & her insanity.

    My coworkers there have made it clear that they want me to come back & have told our bosses so. One has already had several conversations with the people involved in the hiring that if my name were to come across their desks, that I be moved to top priority.

    Considering all this, what advice & all that can you wise commenters provide?

    1. Jerry Vandesic*

      Don’t mention this during the interview. An interview is about showing what you can do, not talking about what you can’t/won’t do.

      1. valentine*

        I wouldn’t go back. It’s returning to an abuser. You are probably underestimating the effect of Brenda’s toxicity at even a low level of exposure. I think Captain Awkward said it’s like crap in a milkshake: No part of it is untainted.

        Also, no one can guarantee that, even if it really is new-work-only and minimal Brenda, that it will remain that way for any length of time.

        1. A Reader*

          Agreed. Plans change and the role that is “definitely new” could very well absorb some/most/all of your old tasks.

          However, I will say this: Have you worked since you were laid off in November? If you haven’t, then I can see why you would return. But if you have other options, then please consider looking elsewhere.

          1. Amethyst*

            Thanks, everyone. Brenda is a toxic coworker, not a boss. (I wouldn’t be considering it if it were the latter.)

            I am currently working…in retail, at my sister’s job. I need a consistent M-F, 9-5 desk job because a medical condition I have has made it crystal clear that even a less physical retail job like this one is out of the picture. I’m dealing with a virtual 24/7 flare-up since I started working there. Everywhere else I’ve applied hasn’t gotten back to me.

  219. Luthe*

    Ok, so the company I used to work for changed its name* (or at least its d/b/a). What company name do I put on my resume: the old one or the new d/b/a?

    *name change was because of reputational issues associated with the old name

    1. Overeducated*

      I’d put Former Name (now New Name). Or New Name (formerly Former Name) if you are more concerned about the reputations stuff.

    2. Darren*

      I think it’s mostly a timing thing. If the company has been it’s new name for awhile you can probably just use the new name since everyone knows it as that now (and that is what I did with my company when I left) especially if you were there through the name transition.

      If the change happened recently, and/or after you left I’d use one of the examples by Overeducated. The point is to make it relatively easy for them to find your company and partially to trade on it’s reputation (if it’s known as a particularly good or well-run workplace) so you pretty much need to use the name they are going to know it by.

      1. Luthe*

        I’m applying to companies in other areas of the country and my former company is not well-known outside my state. Also, the previous name is very long, so trying to put both names on there would take up a lot of room. It sounds like I should go with the new name.

        (Its reputation with the previous name was terrible, hence the change. As the leadership hasn’t changed, I doubt things will improve)

      2. A Reader*

        I agree with Darren, and this is what I did with my former place of employment.

        I get wanting to be clear regarding the company’s name today vs. the name years ago, but your resume should focus on YOU and your skills, and there’s precious little real estate as it is. If the company’s new and/or former names are both lengthy, you could easily lose two lines writing it out. If a hiring manager is curious about a job you held at least a few years ago, then they’ll understand that company names changes, etc.

  220. Sparkly Lady*

    I interviewed several weeks ago for a job teaching dance fitness classes at a studio. The interview felt like it went well, but I never heard anything from them. I’m wondering if I screwed something up. At the end of the interview, they handed me a class schedule and suggested I look through it to see if there were classes currently on the roster that I could substitute. I don’t remember the exact wording, but I understood this to be a thing I should do so that I would be prepared should they decide to hire me.

    Except I never heard anything from them. Not a rejection, offer, or a wanting to see a demo lesson. It made me wonder if I misunderstood, and if they were expecting me to contact them with a list of classes I could substitute.

    The pay was jawdroppingly shockingly low, so it’s a moot point. I don’t actually want to teach for them. But I wouldn’t have intentionally ghosted them either.

    1. Lena Clare*

      From what you’ve said I think it sounds like they’re expecting you to let them know what classes you can substitute yes, and the fact you’ve not told them they’ve taken as a a sign you’re not interested in going any further with them.

      1. The Other Dawn*

        That’s how I read this, too. I think they were looking for you to contact them with the classes you could sub in for. Although they probably could have been a little more explicit and added, “Once you make your choices, contact us.”

  221. Conference Presenter*

    UUUUUGH. Mostly just need to vent, but any brilliant solutions would be great, too.
    I was asked to present at a professional conference that has nursing continuing education hours. I agreed. I wrote objectives, planned an outline, and submitted a documentation of my teaching plan for the 90 minute session I was asked to do. About 3-4 hours of work as it’s not one of my usual topics, and my first time working with this organization for the continuing ed. My info was approved for the credit.
    Conference is fast approaching, only a few weeks away, and the finalized schedule was in my email tonight.
    I am scheduled for 45 minutes.
    I will be evaluated on how well I met those learning objectives and how well I stuck to the teaching plan. Bad evals can impact my ability to present at future conferences. And I have to do it all in (bleeping) HALF THE TIME?

    2. Lena Clare*

      Oh gosh I can see why you’d be very annoyed about that. That seems disorganised at best, inconsiderate at worst.

      At a minimum I would contact them and clarify that yes, they’ve given you a 45 minute slot based on a 90 minute lesson plan proposal and do you need to update your lesson plan to accommodate that, because if you’re being evaluated on the plan this needs to change.

      But that is extremely frustrating. Is the conference organised by people who’ve not presented before or something?!

    3. Darren*

      It would be very difficult (potentially impossible) to cut your presentation by half and still meet your learning objectives, I would agree with contacting them and indicating you were informed you’d get a 90 minute slot and the presentation plan they approved was written with that assumption, given it’s now going to be 45 minutes it wouldn’t be feasible to cover all that material so you are going to remove: X, Y and Z, and just focus on A, B and C.

      Alternatively if they still want you to do 90 minutes and there is some mistake in the schedule that works as well and could they get you the updated schedule in that case.

      1. Lusara*

        This. Be very blunt that they asked you to prepare a 90 minute presentation and then gave you a 45 minute slot, and if they are unable to give you 90 minutes that you will only cover A and B or whatever you can do.

  222. Weekend user name*

    I recently went on a vacation to where my boss lives (we both telecommute). Although we didn’t get to meet up, he sent a bottle of expensive champagne to my reservation at dinner along with a note thanking me for my hard work. (He’s a fantastic boss)

    Obviously this was incredibly generous. I sent him a text when I had my phone later and then thanked him in our weekly meeting the following week. Question is- would it be overboard to send a thank you note to him?

    He’s my first boss after a very toxic boss relationship and I do appreciate that he took the time (and the $) to appreciate me.

    1. The Other Dawn*

      You already thanked him twice. No need to send a thank you note. And that was definitely very nice of him!

    2. MissDisplaced*

      I think you’re good. Once in the moment and once when you returned. Any more feels kinda weird, unless it comes up organically in a conversation about enjoying fine wines or something.

    3. A Reader*

      I think you’re covered, and I agree that you don’t need to thank him again. It would be OOT, I think, if you wrote a TY note in an email or a handwritten letter.

  223. Rebecca*

    There was a mutiny at my job! In a complete surprise maneuver, my director was escorted off campus on Thursday at lunch time. We showed up to work that morning with no inkling.

    ( I knew things weren’t going well but I didn’t ever imagine anything this dramatic, or who would be behind it)

    My new ‘interim’ bosses are the assisstant administrator and one of the teachers who had been gunning for my director’s job from the beginning. She started teaching halfway through last year. She also doesn’t like me much, and thinks some of the opportunities coming my way we’re unfair promotions.

    The deposed director is lawyering up (labour law in France is complicated. They did not follow the legal procedure) and also her kid is still in my class.

    I do not get paid enough for the drama and the anxiety.

  224. The Other Dawn*

    I had a post written, which I deleted, and now I’m writing another one because I don’t even know how to name my problem. Please bear with me, since this may be all over the place. I’m not even sure what my question is.

    I’ve been in my new job a month and, wow, the flood of email that comes through! I’m head of a department now and I think that’s a lot of why I get so many (I’m copied on many of these emails), but it’s still a lot. I’m still too new to know which emails I can trash or file away, and which ones I should be reading, although I’m learning, so it’s a huge distraction. We’re on Outlook so I’m doing my usual thing of creating folders for each subject area, but I feel there’s gotta be a better way that makes more sense. Things that are pending I keep in the main inbox and either mark them as unread or flag for follow up.

    Also, I now have 10 people in my department–I’ve never had that many before–so I’m having to mange that. Plus identity changes needed (there are some big ones needed shrink the monstrous workload), learn new things (a program I haven’t been responsible for before) and figuring out an employee issue.

    I realize these are all normal work things, but it’s only been a month and I’m already feeling the way I’ve felt in every other professional job I’ve had: can’t seem to focus on one thing and see it through to completion and just feel scattered a lot. (I’m actually starting to wonder if I might have mild ADD; my sister was diagnosed a few years ago at the age of 56 and her daughter has it, too.)

    Part of the problem is the one area I chose to deal with first, the one that will significantly impact the workload for the better, just keeps growing and growing because I keep uncovering more things that haven’t been given attention in long time. I know now that i need to break this into smaller chunks. One problem, though, is that I really want the input of my senior person; however, because of the monstrous workload, she can’t even sit down to think for 10 minutes on the proposal I gave her that would get the ball rolling. Yes, I’m the boss and could just finalize it and give it to my boss for approval; however, she’s the one directing this particular work so I really want her input; she’s got fantastic ideas and her input is valuable. And this particular area is something that could really have a big impact to stop the bleeding.

    Another problem is a problem employee. It’s an issue I haven’t dealt with before and I find I spend *a lot* of time thinking about it–on the way to and from work, during work, while I’m trying to fall asleep.

    So, yeah, I don’t even know what my question is here.

    1. Seeking Second Childhood*

      Is your new company big enough to have a mentor program? I was going to suggest more discussion with your own manager until I read her workload. It’s still worth asking, because her workload might be more reasonable after you’re settled.
      She should at least be able to help you decide what you don’t have to be copied on…unless she is causing her own business by blindly insisting on seeing everything.
      Do you have HR? That’swhere I’d go for help with your employee issue.

      1. The Other Dawn*

        No, she’s not my manager. She’s the senior person on my team and I’m her manager. She’s in the team leader position and her workload is insane.

        1. The Other Dawn*

          Oops, meant to add that the email comes from all areas, not just my own department. I’m copied because my department is the one that has the job of making sure we all comply with certain regulations. I feel like some people are too much in the habit of copying me because my predecessor was always copied. I just need to figure out what I care about and what I don’t care about, but that’s hard when so many are coming in and I have much bigger fish to fry at the moment. It also doesn’t help that everything I touch opens a can of worms. It’s good I’m finding these things, but it really bogs me down and I lose focus even more.

          1. Fabulous Friday*

            You are expecting way too much of yourself after just one month. Sort email by sender and you can get an idea of what their messages are about by scanning the subject lines. You will, over time, know how to prioritize things.

          2. zora*

            Also, this offers an organizing opportunity. You should be able to set a rule that sends all emails where you are CC’d to a separate folder. And then only look at that at set times each day. So that you can focus on the things that are being sent directly to you.

    2. MissDisplaced*

      Well… I think this is pretty normal stuff to be feeling at only a month or two into a new job. New jobs often feel overwhelming for the fist several months and up to even a year before you can begin to feel comfortable with everything!
      That being said, can you discuss priorities with the person you report to? It sounds as though you’re fairly high-level, but it’s still a reasonable thing to discuss if there are lots of projects and problems on your plate.
      If you are the one in charge, then you need to take a step back and begin determining those priorities and steps yourself. Because it’s impossible to tackle everything at once, no matter how good a manager you are! So, I don’t know exactly what you plan might look like, but you could aim for 1-3 significant things per quarter or something.
      Bear with it! It does get better as you go along.

      1. zora*

        Seriously, this is normal because you are still learning how things work here!

        At one job that was super high-paced, I was lucky to have another person in the same role who showed me her email system in my first week and I was able to jump right in because I had a template for organizing work and thoughts right away.

        But most of the time you don’t get that, and it takes some time to figure out the work flow because every office is different! Even in the same industry.

        I would just say to schedule into your calendar some time each week to step back and look at your organizational system and see how you can change it now that you have learned more about how the company works. And yes, it means other things won’t get done, but you are thinking about the long term, so that you are better positioned in the future to make things work even smoother.

        But you really have to think of it as baby steps, and that you are going to try to make a small improvement each week, and that’s the best you can do! A place that is this busy is just going to take time to make big changes like you seem to be envisioning, don’t beat yourself up about it!! I know that’s easier said than done, but it’s something I’ve been working on, and it really helps to literally write these things down and put them in front of me. Like “BABY STEPS” “ONE THING AT A TIME” .. you will get there!

        1. The Other Dawn*

          Actually, these big changes are expected and a part of why they hired me. I kind of wish I was just envisioning them! But yes, I’ll get there. It’s just overwhelming to see how much work there is for a company that’s half the size of my old one…and the department is twice as big. Having been around this industry for a while now, there’s definitely a lot of unnecessary work that can and should be scaled back.

  225. anon again*

    Friendly reminder for all my fellow anxiety sufferers: unless your bosses/colleagues are complete jerks, 99% of the time things are not going to be nearly as bad as you might think.

    Case in point: I had a day from hell earlier this week (extremely stressful and messy project, my bank locking all my cards, a bunch of other personal issues) and ended up snapping at one of my managers at work when he contacted me via IM during the busiest 10 minutes of the day and insisted on scheduling me for a semi-optional, non-urgent thing the next day (which otherwise I might have been able to use as a work from home day to put out some of the fires). Now I didn’t insult him in my reply, but I tried arguing my way out of the semi-optional thing and I think my exact words in my final reply to him were “fine I’ll do it, happy now?” I spent the rest of the evening worrying that I was gonna be in for one hell of a lecture when going to the semi-optional, non-urgent thing, that this was gonna end up in my performance review, how I’d have to argue my way around boundaries at work etc. etc. you know that entire thing when your brain goes “well, the worst that could happen is X… and you’d BETTER have a plan/argument/solution for every single little piece of it OR ELSE”?

    Well, what ended up happening was that my manager approached me just after I arrived and asked if I was feeling better than the day before. When I apologized for snapping at him, he basically went “Nah, it’s ok, we all have those days sometimes. I’ve already put it out of my mind.”

    So, for all my fellow anxiety sufferers: you’re going to be ok. It’s going to be fine.

    2. 653-CXK*

      I just began a new job a month ago and I’m anxious calling people up. My first thought was that these folks were going to rip me a new one, threaten to go to the media, etc. Then I remembered I was in a much smaller company, and that put me at ease right away.

    3. WalkedInYourShoes*

      Thank you for sharing. I have had challenging people in my current work. It’s stressful and decided to start job-hunting. You are right. It could be worse. I have been suffering from major anxiety attacks since mid-Feb. because of the nitpicky and micromanaging things brought up by the big c-level bosses.

  226. Chaordic One*

    During the last week, the former stepfather of one of my coworkers died in an unexpected and tragic accident. Although we’re not terribly close I really like this coworker and I thought that other people in the office all did too. The coworker’s parents divorced when she was quite young, and the former stepfather basically raised her as his own daughter. The stepfather and mother divorced about a year ago, but the coworker has remained close to, and in touch with, her now former stepfather. The coworker thinks of him as her father and she was devastated by his death. Because the death was so unexpected the coworker put up a GoFundMe page to raise money for a funeral.

    The thing that is weird is that at work hardly anyone at work seems to know about the coworker’s absence or the death, let alone the GoFundMe page when I’ve brought it up with them, which is kind of weird. I’ve donated money to the GofFundMe page, but I’m really quite surprised that comparatively few other people have. I know people get asked for donations all the time, but I just think that if a lot of people would have made a small donation of say $10 or $20 each it would add up and the one-time problem would be solved. Anyway, I’m just kind of disappointed in my coworkers.

    1. Darren*

      I’m friendly with a lot of my co-workers, that doesn’t mean that they are friends, or that I’d be willing (or even if willing able) to help out with their personal financial issues. Your co-workers are probably in similar situations, I know $10-$20 dollars doesn’t sound like a lot but for some people that might be a significant impact on their budget.

      Don’t go around judging people whose situations you have no way of fully knowing. Some people can’t even afford to help out their friends, let alone anyone else.

    2. Batgirl*

      I think it’s good to let people know just in case they want to do something. It does seem like you are a bit closer to her though, given that you know so much back story.

      I think we sometimes feel helpless when we are aware of another person’s grief. We then start looking around for ‘what can we do’. It’s also super tempting to place blame on people who don’t feel the same way because in an odd way it feels constructive to point it out, even to ourselves, that we’re doing more than they are.

  227. A Reader*

    I have a question, and I hope you all can help!

    I am currently a contractor in a position I love, aka Current Job. The team, the work, the company culture – it’s all exactly what I have ever dreamed of. However, I am at a point in my career where I don’t want to be a contractor any more, and I am planning to look for work again as I get closer to the end of my contract. The company at Current Job has hired contractors on full-time, so it’s always a possibility that could happen to me; I am just not ready to get my hopes up.

    How do I address this in a cover letter? The company where I am a contractor is well-known, so I could see a hiring manager thinking “Um, why would she want to leave [Current Job]? This doesn’t make sense.”

    Background info: Before this role at Current Job, my career (about 14 years) is almost evenly divided between traditional full-time positions and freelance work.

    I am looking for a position with benefits, and I don’t get that as a contractor. That seems like a rather bald fact to state in a cover letter or an interview. Is there a way to finesse this? I could always just not mention it in the cover letter and let the hiring managers draw their own conclusions; however, this is a topic that could almost definitely come up in an interview, so I want to prepare.

    Thank you for any advice!

    1. Sam Foster*

      Don’t put in your cover letter why you are leaving. Put in the cover letter why you want to work for the new company and don’t say it is because it is benefits. Say all the other reasons you want to work for them. The switch from contractor to employee question will come up, try something like “I’m really interested in what you do here and feel it is a great fit for my skills and I like the ability to think long-term etc in support of that role” <<< super rough but you get the idea.

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