open thread – May 17-18, 2019

by Alison Green on May 17, 2019

It’s the Friday open thread! The comment section on this post is open for discussion with other readers on anything work-related that you want to talk about. If you want an answer from me, emailing me is still your best bet*, but this is a chance to talk to other readers.

* If you submitted a question to me recently, please do not repost it here, as it may be in my queue to answer.

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  1. University of Trantor*

    A big thank you to everyone who gave me great advice on how to do lunch/dinner jobs interviews when I asked about a month ago in the Friday open thread. The meal interviews went well, and I received and accepted a job offer!

    The new job pays almost 70% more than my current job, and I’ve finally arrived in six-digit land. The benefits are great…and arguably better than my current job. I get rid of a horrible commute and acquire a much more generous travel reimbursement policy.

    I gave notice at my current employer and didn’t tell them what the new job is paying. Current employer counter-offered me with a 25% raise and a boatload of lofty promises and guilt (including how hard they had to “fight with HR” to secure the 25% raise) during a 45-minute don’t-leave-us meeting.

    I declined my current employer’s counter-offer to their great shock and surprise. And I admit there were a few times during the meeting in which I had to stifle a chuckle. Many of the things they were saying sometimes bordered on being melodramatic.

    7. Seeking Second Childhood*

      EXCELLENT news for you. I would however have told them exactly how much you’re getting — as a service to my soon to be former co-workers.

      1. University of Trantor*

        Thanks, that’s a great point. I agree with wanting to help my co-workers (who are great and are greatly underpaid). I did tell them during the meeting that my new job offer’s pay was substantially higher than their counter-offer, after they brought up the 25% raise.

        But current employer also has established and ongoing issues with compensating people appropriately…it’s a harsh thing to say, but being a straight white “family” man will do more for your compensation and promotion potential at my employer than almost anything else, including actual job performance/accomplishments. I’m only 1/4 of those attributes, and none of my co-workers really fit the aforementioned description either. I don’t think it’s always a deliberate/conscious decision by senior leadership, but…the outcomes speak for themselves.

        They have an outside consultant group looking into staff diversity issues here, particularly with regards to compensation/promotion. The consultants are interviewing a number of staff members. My great-grand-boss, however, has explicitly told me not to meet with the consultants “since you’re leaving anyways.” So, I’m not sure how sincere senior leadership is about actually changing how things are.

        I am telling the co-workers whom I close with about the counter-offer (annual raises here tend to be ~2%, supposedly all “merit-based”) and my new job. This has encouraged a few of them to pressure senior leadership for more/better pay raises and/or launch their own job search.

        The latest I’ve heard is that they’re planning to increase the pay of most of my coworkers on my team 5% to 15% to prevent further attrition. It is annual review/raise time, so I’m certainly not taking full credit for instigating the change, but I imagine my impending departure might have made them more amenable to reevaluating my co-workers’ compensation. I’m pretty sure this will be the largest single raise any of them have ever received from my employer.

        1. R. Daneel Olivaw*

          Whether pay discrepancies are “always a deliberate/conscious decision by senior leadership” at Former Employer may well be irrelevant. Under the Civil Rights Act of 1964, members of protected classes may need only to demonstrate a disparate impact without having to prove actual discriminatory intent.

          1. University of Trantor*

            Great username. You are right that disparate impact, without intent, may be enough in employment discrimination cases, and I think it would be challenging for them to come up with legitimate business justifications to explain practices that result in the disparate impact.

            That said, I don’t know of any employees who want to get engaged in a protracted legal fight with them on the issue (which is understandable).

    8. Fortitude Jones*

      This is FANTASTIC! A 70% raise?! What do you do and is your company still hiring? Lol, no seriously though, that’s amazing. I’m almost done with the first week in my new position, which was a 26-27% salary increase (depending on how you round), and I’m paying eight cents less a month for my new benefits (medical, dental, vision, accident, and critical illness) than what I was paying in my last company (where I only could afford medical, dental, and vision) and my deductible went from $2700 a year to $1750 and I almost doubled my HSA contribution. Then, my new company pays short and long term disability at 100%, they offer paid parental leave up to 4 weeks at 100% of your base salary, their employee EAP program not only gets you in touch with mental health and financial counselors, but they also negotiate your health payments with medical providers at no cost to the employee, I get 10 paid holidays, 10 paid sick days which can roll over with no cap, 2 paid personal days, and 15 paid vacation days that also roll over – my last company only gave us 9 paid holidays, 5 sick days that don’t roll over, and 10 vacation days as new hires. I work remotely full time (as does most of my team), and it was a struggle to get my last employer to let us work from home – after putting in my order for a company-issued iPhone yesterday, I thought to myself, “Nope – not at all regretting leaving!” Lol.

      So that was my long-winded way of saying, I’m right there with you, UoT (seriously – 70%?! I need to learn your ways, lol).

      1. University of Trantor*

        Congrats on your new job, too! The benefits sound great. It sounds like your first week went well.

        Honestly, I was paid only-slightly-below market rate at my current employer based on my job title and the responsibilities typically associated with that title. The problem was I was severely underpaid in relation to my actual job responsibilities and accomplishments, which were well beyond the scope and level of my job title (and have been for a few years now). And when I would ask for a meaningful raise (based on all those accomplishments), they’d tell me how much they valued me and saw a great future for me but would plead poverty and that “HR won’t let us increase your pay.”

        Their narrative is undercut by the fact that they somehow found me a 25% counter-offer raise in just four hours after I gave notice.

        The good news is that those accomplishments didn’t go unnoticed in my industry either. My new job will be the first one I obtained through “networking.” My new employer was looking for someone with my background/skills to fill a new position, and a number of their own employees (and a bunch of their industry contacts) said, “You should definitely talk to University of Trantor. Just look at all he’s been doing at [his current employer]. He’d be a great fit.” The rest (including the meal interviews), is history.

        I’m looking forward to being able to max out my annual 401(k) contribution, and still taking home more money than before. I have good vacation days/holidays at my current job, but the increased pay (and still good vacation/holiday policy at my new employer) means I’ll finally be able to take some nice vacations without worrying as much about the expense.

        1. Fortitude Jones*

          This is great – seriously, congratulations. I’m inspired all over again since I didn’t read previous threads where you talked about this, so didn’t know your backstory. I always love to hear about people who were underpaid and undervalued for their roles moving on and getting what they deserve.

          And when I would ask for a meaningful raise (based on all those accomplishments), they’d tell me how much they valued me and saw a great future for me but would plead poverty and that “HR won’t let us increase your pay.”

          I hate when companies say this. I worked for an insurance company in a division that brought in $268 million dollars alone in 2016, and they turned around and told me and my coworkers that they didn’t have enough money in the budget to give us decent raises in 2017. WTF?! Needless to say, I was the 11th person in 12 months to leave that division, and this was a division that never saw that kind of turnover. I hope it inspired them to pay my former colleagues fairly going forward.

    9. Captain of Taco Tuesdays*

      Why are casual Fridays a thing? If the way we present ourselves to clients matters so much, why does it only apply Monday-Thursday? At my office in particular we see MORE, not less, clients on Fridays. So, while I appreciate a jeans day, I don’t understand how it makes any sense.

      1. Captain of Taco Tuesdays*

        I am apparently New At The Internet and replied instead of creating a new thread. CONGRATULATIONS University of Trantor!

        1. University of Trantor*

          Thank you!

          As someone who is fine wearing a suit and tie to work (in an office) everyday, I confess I am with you about casual Fridays. Like you, the likelihood I meet with clients/the public is actually higher on Fridays.

          But, since other people seem to enjoy it, as long as I still get to wear my suit and tie on Fridays, they can wear their t-shirts and jeans on Fridays. =)

      2. AnonEMoose*

        It’s a simple to give perk that costs the companies nothing and that employees enjoy?

        Where I work, the dress code is basically “dress however’s appropriate for your day.” Which I think makes a lot of sense and really enjoy. I almost never have meetings with executives or outside folks. But those who do should dress accordingly, and they do.

        I think it would be great if more companies did something like that. If you’re not meeting with clients, wear your jeans (or khakis or whatever)! If you are, dress however is appropriately for that, based on your industry and company culture. Give newer employees some more detailed guidance, handle any problems that come up, and otherwise treat people like adults.

        1. Kat in VA*

          At the risk of derailing with this thread-within-a-thread, my company does it that way too. Big government customer coming in? Everyone dresses up. Most of the execs are out of town and it’s slow? Dress down. They treat us like adults and it’s fantastic.

        2. Quinalla*

          Ours is like this too which I think makes more sense. Essentially casual every day unless you are meeting with clients.

          For people that never meet with clients, but big bosses still want a more professional atmosphere the rest of the week, I think casual Friday can make sense. But I honestly like our way of doing it better where those that never meet with clients can dress casually all the time. It is a perk a lot of people love at our place.

    13. MissDisplaced*

      six-digit land

      Woooooooo!!!!!!!

      Have yet to hit that myself, though I am inching closer.

    14. Liz*

      Congratulations! And yeah, I probably would have had to stifle some giggles too. Like ok you make this huge production of offering me more money, but ONLY when I say I’m leaving. yeah, no, thanks but no thanks.

  2. Interviewing with visible disability*

    I know Alison says you don’t disclose your disability/ADA accommodations until you have an offer. But what if your disability is not an invisible kind and you are invited for an interview? And the company can see your disability? What do you do?

    My sister has an auto-immune disease and her previous job required on-site presence (a lot of walking, climbing and standing, etc). This position was structured so that she would spend maybe close to 60-70% on-site and 30-40% in the office. Since the diagnosis, she was put in the office full time doing basically all of the “behind the scene” computer/paper work that the field supervisors would normally do (she supports several field supervisors at the moment). She’s doing everything a field supervisor would do minus the on-site presence.

    Now the situation is that because she can no longer do what she was hired to do (being out at job sites), the regional director downgraded her position to an admin with 60% pay cut. The regional director wants all the field supervisors to do their own office work (yeah, good luck with that) or the director seems to think an admin with no background/experience in this field could easily do what my sister is doing. She was willing to take 30% pay cut but not 60%. My sister said no thank you (there are other issues with this regional director who has been at this position less than six months and has no qualified background in this field prior to being hired by the company). Now my sister is moving to a new city (moving from HCOL to LCOL where she can buy a place outright so her new/lower income there would still be sufficient for her).

    She is very qualified in her field (she has earned the highest & hard-to-attain certification offered in this field) except she just can’t be on the field anymore; she wants to interview for a similar office-only position in her field at the new state.

    My question is: When my sister is invited to interviews and the employers can clearly see her disabilities, what can she do? What is she supposed to do?

    Thank you for reading.

    1. Clorinda*

      Maybe strongly emphasize how she adapted to the change in her circumstances? After all, you say she’s applying for jobs that are exactly what she has been doing since her disability occurred, so it should be obvious that her disability will not affect how she performs.

    2. Holly*

      From a legal standpoint (*not* speaking from the experience of someone in that situation) there really isn’t anything to do other than make it very clear in discussing her qualifications and skills that she is confident of her ability to do the office work. If the work required field work she is unable to do, it wouldn’t be illegal for them to not hire her based on that – but that doesn’t seem to be the situation, she’s specifically looking for office work which she would be fine with.

    3. Falling Diphthong*

      I believe it’s good to be upfront–I can do A, B, C; I cannot do X, Y, Z. And maybe to practice getting those as concise as possible.

      It seems that for these roles it’s a natural question the interviewer will be thinking, even if they aren’t sure how to ask about it legally, and this way they can quickly determine the position doesn’t actually require X, Y, Z but they really need someone with a lot of experience in B, so yay it fits. I would make an analogy to the interviewer knowing you drove two hours to make this interview–preemptively offering that you are following your partner to this city and will be renting an apartment much closer than 2 hours says that you know X could be a problem and have a solution for it.

    4. Bree*

      Presumably, she’ll be interviewing for office roles where she can do the majority of what’s required. If so, I don’t think she needs to say much. Just talk about how she succeeded in a similar role in the past to demonstrate she can do so again. If there are pieces of the job she would need accommodations for, she could mention that, but again in the context of what’s work well for her in the past.

    5. Ra94*

      I don’t know the legal standpoint of this at all, but practically- if they can definitely see her disability, is it worth her potentially mentioning that she used to work in the field but stopped due to a condition (no need to be specific), because it’ll demonstrate first-hand knowledge and experience that other candidates might lack?

    6. fposte*

      When you say “can clearly see her disabilities,” what exactly do you mean? Do you mean she uses a mobility aid, or more that she has symptoms like a tremor that might be mistaken for something else? In general, I think a visible inarguable disability can either be ignored as being so obvious as not to need discussion if there’s nothing obviously relevant to the job (a cane user being hired to be a programmer) or can be a tacit way to lead in to a useful point (“My vision is too impaired to drive, but I’ve been an effective programmer using native screen magnification”).

      1. Interviewing with visible disability*

        She wears a leg brace for stability which helps her with walking. When she wears pants (she always wears pants), you can’t outright see the brace but if you looked closely enough, you might notice there is something underneath (plus it makes a clicking noise when she walks & if you were close enough, you might hear it as well). She also uses a cane for stability (just to be on the safe side). When she’s outside walking around, she will take her cane just in case; when she’s at home or in the office, she doesn’t always have to use it since she has walls/desks/countertop that she can gently touch to stabilize/guide her if she needed it. She is afraid of being too dependent on the cane so she tries not to use it.

        1. Clorinda*

          Based on this, it sounds to me like she needn’t mention it at all. What you describe sounds like the kind of thing where the accommodations she’d require are simple and not at all onerous for an employer interviewing for an indoor desk job.

        2. JSPA*

          Eh, a brace and cane could be for a temporary sprain, or all sorts of things? Maybe put a new tip on the cane, so it doesn’t look as well-used.

          I’m wondering if, with (say) a rugged, fat-tire electrical trike (not a power chair or scooter, but something that can navigate uneven terrain) combined (perhaps) with a cooling vest, she could actually do some field work (unless the climbing part is non-negotiable). They’re pretty new, so she might not have considered that option (which, as well as being maneuverable and steady, is far more bad-ass than most official assistive mobility options).

    7. Psyche*

      So I have an invisible disability but I tend to disclose it during the interview. I have always been lucky enough to have the luxury of choice, so I haven’t needed to worry about scaring off potential employers. I just address it head on. I lay out the limitations and why it shouldn’t be a problem for that position. If there is something that my disability affects, I tell them how I get around it. Your sister could probably bring it up when explaining why she is switching jobs. Since it doesn’t sound like her disability will actually affect an office job, that might be the way to go.

      1. Tau*

        I have a visible – well, audible – disability and this is basically how I handle it. I stutter, and my experience is that people react very well if you address the elephant in the room and basically give them a framework for how they should think about it. In my case, I’m not in a career role that has much in the way of public speaking or client-facing duties so I generally don’t talk about it in relation to the job since I figure it’s obvious there’s no major issues with the job duties; if that were to change, I’d probably do what you do in terms of explaining what the limitations are and aren’t and how I expect to work around any problems that could occur. I might also end with “I’m happy to answer any questions if you have any” or the like.

        Obviously, legally you’re not required to do this at all, but personally I’ve found that when left to their own devices people will often assume the disability is worse/has a wider impact than is the case in reality. And that will have an impact on your job chances, one that may not be legal but that you’ll have a difficult time proving. Talking about it openly can defuse things a lot.

        1. LCH*

          i’m interviewing someone soon who disclosed to me when accepting the invitation that they have a stutter. i don’t know what to do with the info beyond just knowing about it ahead of time. do you have anything you wish an interviewer would do beyond giving you time to answer (which i would do anyway)?

          1. Tau*

            Hmm… mainly just adhering to basic politeness standards for stuttering:
            – don’t look away during the stuttering (I’m not that fussed about this one but it’s important to a lot of people who stutter)
            – don’t interrupt
            – especially don’t interrupt to finish what they’re trying to say
            – don’t say anything along the lines of “slow down”, “just relax”, “take a deep breath”, etc. (I wish this went without saying but…)
            And just, try to remove any noticeable time pressure from the proceedings.

            It might be a good idea to see if you can pencil in a little extra time for the interview, in case it overruns. I’d expect in most cases it wouldn’t be necessary, but if the stutter is quite severe during the interview it might be and knowing you have the extra time might serve to relax things a little.

        2. Kat in VA*

          I have a speech disorder also (spasmodic dysphonia) and along with my vocal cords slamming uncontrollably, sometimes I stutter. I usually tell interviewers on a phone screen that I have a speech impediment*, and to not feel bad if they have to ask me to repeat myself. Most of them say something like, “Oh, I can understand you just fine!” which is nice, but is almost immediately belied by them saying, “Pardon?” or “Can you repeat that, please?” or my personal favorite, “I think your cell cut out for a second there…”

          *I say “impediment” rather than “neurological disorder” because it opens up a lot of questions that I’d rather not get into at first blush.

          1. Tau*

            Speech disorder high five!

            I also tend to go for “speech disorder” when explaining, because a) it communicates all they really need to know b) “stuttering” is sort of unfortunate as a term because it’s also in common use for fluent-speaker speech dysfluencies. People have been confused on that front before, especially in my more fluent phases, so I like to underline from the start that this is a disability (causes unclear but looking increasingly likely to be some sort of inborn neurological defect) and they should throw any comparison with their own dysfluencies out the window.

            or my personal favorite, “I think your cell cut out for a second there…”

            Ahahaha I have definitely been there! I’ve had someone go “um, the connection is really bad, should I call you back?” I’m sorry, the connection is innocent, I just talk like this! I find in-person much easier than the phone because it’s more obvious that I’m trying to talk. As part of the stutter I have occasional bouts of long silence which can be really awkward to manage if someone can’t see me (as I’m sure you know!)

            2. Kat in VA*

              I get that “bad connection” comment often enough that I’ve got a pat answer of, “Nah, it’s a good connection, that’s just my voice!” which always leaves people floundering and (for some reason) apologizing.

              Don’t apologize, it’s not your fault!

              I have issues with vowel sounds (of which my primary language is mostly comprised of, urgh) and the literal hardest number/word for me to say is EIGHT. Naturally, every time I need to read off a phone number, address, whatever (including my own cell number), that pesky EIGHT is in there!

              And yes, in-person (or even Skype/Zoom interviews) are so much better because of facial expression, hand motions, even the subtle lip reading that folks don’t know they’re doing all contribute to a better understanding of what I’m *trying* to say. I don’t feel like I have to speak louder, which has the unpleasant side effect of making me sound even more garbled on bad days.

              On a related note, I work as an Executive Assistant and everyone is aware of my issues. The best part is I work for a company where my division deals almost exclusively with the federal government. Because of that, literally all the people in the leadership positions are…ex military. Personally, I’d have to say it’s a toss up whether the Air Force guys or the Marines have the worst hearing. :P

              1. Wild Blue Yonder*

                Marines. The likelihood of them working with something that could blow out their hearing is a bit more than the Air Force. I’m an Air Force veteran, my brothers are Army and Marine Corps veterans and my husband’s Army retired. I have the best hearing and I worked on the flight line. Maybe we have better ear protection :)

                1. Elaine*

                  There’s actually a whole class action lawsuit about the ear protection issued to servicemembers. My partner is former Army and can’t hear voices well.

          2. Former Employee*

            Senator Susan Collins has spasmodic dysphonia. If you can work that into the conversation, it might make people more comfortable because if a person can have that disorder and be a Senator, then someone else who has it can probably do almost anything.

    8. The Man, Becky Lynch*

      I think the problem is going to be that she’s applying to positions that require field work, so going in as a new hire, they are able to easily not hire her if she clearly states “I’m qualified for 60% of the job but would have to work around the 40% field work!” Is there a reason she’s not applying for administrative only jobs and cutting out the issue of her being put into this spot and rejected? Keep in mind what is a reasonable accommodation for one employer isn’t always going to be a reasonable accommodation for the next.

      1. The Man, Becky Lynch*

        I’m a dimwit. I didn’t see the part where you mentioned that she’s applying for office only.

        If it’s office only, I don’t see why it will matter! You just ignore if someone for an office job that doens’t require a lot of standing/walking applies. If she shows up with a mobility aid or even a wheelchair, they’re not going to think twice since it’s administrative and she has her certifications/experience.

        1. The Man, Becky Lynch*

          You’re right, I went back and reread afterwards and realized my error *face desk*

      3. Fortitude Jones*

        OP said her sister wants to interview for office-only positions similar to the one she’s in – presumably, the sister’s biggest issue is the massive pay reduction she took when being sent to the office after her disability manifested. I don’t blame her – 60% is huge.

    9. AngelicGamer, the visually impaired peep*

      I don’t think there’s anything she can do but sing her own praises as confidently as she can. Good luck to her!

    10. Juli G.*

      Most decent companies won’t really care about mobility issues in an office job. We interviewed someone for a job with a mobility aid. He was upfront and said “From the job description, the only accommodation I will need is around travel. I like to pay to select my seat so I can have room to stretch my leg and I need to give myself time to lay down after international flights so I can stretch before sitting in a conference room.” Those were easy enough and not essential functions of the job so we didn’t bat an eye (however, hiring manager and I are both decent people).

      1. Interviewing with visible disability*

        She had to take a leave of absence for a few weeks and she went back to work earlier than planned because her immediate boss needed her desperately; my sister was up front that she can only do the office work and her immediate boss said ok. The only two accommodations she asked for was that the elevator is turned on during her office hours (going up and down the stairs is hard for my sister) and that she needs a designated parking spot near the entrance. Both were granted so things were fine…until this regional director showed up with her intention of revamping the department.

        Anyway do you think those two accommodations my sister asked for are reasonable?

        1. Clorinda*

          Frankly, the idea that the elevator would ever NOT be turned on is a little weird. Why isn’t it just on all the time? You never know when an otherwise able-bodied employee might sprain an ankle or just not feel like walking.

          1. Interviewing with visible disability*

            The current office’s elevator hours starts at 7 or 8 am, I believe. She starts work early like 6-6:30 am so she asked that the elevator be turned on when she arrived which the immediate boss made happen.

            But I understand that if she were to interview, it would be during the normal business hours and elevators should be working.

        2. C*

          Does your sister have a handicap parking permit? It’s super weird to me that she had to ask for a close parking space (as it seems like she should easily be able to get a permit and businesses are legally required to have handicap parking) or the elevator be turned on (seriously, WTF?).

          Neither of these would even be accommodations at my work place. I wouldn’t bat an eye at someone interviewing with a cane, but if they asked about elevators & parking, it would be an easy yes.

          1. Interviewing with visible disability*

            Yes, she has a handicap placard and there is one handicap parking at this building. This building does not have enough parking stalls for all employees so many have to find street parking and far from the building. Plus if you came early enough to get a stall and left the building during the day for a little bit, you would have to be extremely lucky to find a stall again. She couldn’t take a chance of far away parking and needed a guaranteed stall; her immediate boss gave her the handicap stall which stated that it is reserved for her during her office hours.

          2. Mockingbird 2*

            I have a handicapped placard and had to ask for a spot at one hospital during medical school because there were no handicapped employee spots. I needed permission to park in patient parking without having to pay. They actually redid the parking lot the next year and added employee handicapped spots! I like to think that was partly because of my request :)

        3. Juli G.*

          Incredibly reasonable. I do work for a large company with a private lot so these things are standard and she wouldn’t even need a formal accommodation.

    11. Pinky Pie*

      If I were in your sister’s place, I’d contact vocational rehabilitation to see if they could assist her. Because the state agency specializes in dealing with people with disabilities, they would be able to give her practical, in person and free advice. They can also follow up with any assistive tech she may need to maintain the job.

    12. caffe latte*

      I think it makes a good story for why she’s switching from fieldwork to office/management – I have this *advanced* certification that makes me really good, so I understand the ins & outs of all the job. However, I can no longer work fieldwork due to reasons, so I’m applying for management/office jobs. If the companies she’s applying to aren’t totally new, this is a perfectly standard career transition. Most people can’t do field work their whole lives. She might be transitioning younger than some, but chances are they’ve seen it. Maybe get some project management certificate to back up her new plan?

      1. Interviewing with visible disability*

        It is her concern how to write her cover letter to explain her need for the transition from the field to the office. The office position would be basically at the bottom of hierarchy in that specific department. She’s worried how to convey the need for the transition without fulling disclosing her auto-immune disease which impacts her physically (that she cannot absolutely do the field work anymore). If the employer were reading her resume holding the higher positions she held in the past but now looking for an admin job, won’t that raise an eyebrow?

        1. Bree*

          I think something along the lines of “Due to a medical condition, I transitioned from field work to an office position, where I excelled. I am interested in continuing that work.” is a perfect explanation for that resume.

          1. caffe latte*

            Yep, I think this is a good one. Also, without knowing exactly her field, is there a reason she’s trying for admin roles instead of stretching up? My own biases are showing, but I know fieldwork from mostly a biology/geology point of view, and there’s a lot to be in “in an office” – data analysis, reports, grant writing, experimental design etc that require in-depth knowledge that aren’t “admin” work.

            1. Interviewing with visible disability*

              The role she’s looking for is an admin for a very specific department within the company; she won’t support anyone outside of this department. Next level up for this department will be called a coordinator but this coordinator role usually involves field visits (maybe not as extensive as a supervisor but some field visits will be expected) and giving trainings/long public speaking role to groups.

              Her disability makes her feeling tired all the time and she has noticed that when she was giving trainings in the afternoons, her speech was impacted negatively (really slow, not very clear pronunciation, slurred speech). Early mornings trainings were doable but those were rare and most trainings had to be scheduled in the afternoon.

              So in order to reduce stress, she is just looking for desk/computer work, using industry specific softwares.

        2. Elizabeth*

          I wouldn’t disclose it as an auto-immune disorder – that can sounds big and scary and unknown (how bad is it? Does it affect her job performance? Will she be out sick a lot? Etc). I have 4+ auto immune disorders, some are super minor and some can be more serious. “Auto immune” is a vague and unhelpful term in this situation.

          Instead, frame it as a mobility issue, matter-of-factly: due to a leg issue I now require a leg brace and thus field work is no longer a good fit for me. I want to use my extensive knowledge from x years in the field to transition into office work in y industry. (Then transition into talking about your qualifications and how you can help solve the potential employer’s problems).

          Basically, limit the scope of the revelation to concrete, actionable info – a leg problem prevents field work.

    13. OhNo*

      Wheelchair user here – she doesn’t need to do anything at all during the interview, just be her best self and interview like the respected professional she is. She may get asked about accommodations, but I’ve found it’s best to be breezy and not specific during the actual interview itself. Anything too detailed may cause issues, so it might be best to leave that until she’s gotten an offer.

      If she wants to disclose before the interview (which is something I personally do, so my interviewers aren’t surprised by my wheelchair), she can ask while setting up the time if there is an accessible entrance/disability parking, which works as a subtle heads-up. This might also help if she’s worried about an inaccessible office, like if she needs an elevator but worries that they may not have one.

    14. Everdene*

      I use a crutch when walking distances/going somewhere new and last year hired a wheelchair user.

      Your sister doesn’t need to mention anything at all in the interview, unless she uses it for an example or her cv narrative. Ie “I loved building up my skills in the field and became an expert in x area. Now I can’t get out so much I have found it fufilling to do x, y and z in the office to increase our team’s performance. I’m excited about this role as it will allow me to use that expertise…”

      I would also consider not selling herself short, ok she can’t be in the field all the time anymore, could she be a manager? A trainer? A holder of technical expertise that her new colleagues refer to when stuck in the field?

      1. Mockingbird 2*

        Agree with this and the other comments about framing it as a shift in her career goals due to the disability. I have not brought my (invisible) disability up during a job interview but in other areas of my life I tend to agree that being upfront in a positive, breezy way tends to be the best approach.

        I have actually had more trouble professionally with my soft voice which I never considered a disability before but… it’s due to a medical condition so *shrug*! I have had problems with people senior to me thinking I am not “confident” or am not speaking up on purpose then getting frustrated when I can’t. I bring this up now when I am leading any type of presentation.

    15. A tester, not a developer*

      It can be helpful to emphasize how this can be an advantage for the company as a whole: The field supervisors get to focus on the outside work (if that’s billable time, talk that up) instead of the office work. And she has the experience to be able to identify problems, see trends and patterns, etc. for the organization as a whole instead of each field supervisor being in their own silo. An inexperienced admin certainly can’t do that!

      (I have a disability that is best dealt with by working from home one day a week. I’ve turned it into a good thing for my people – on a WFH day they know I can respond to things more quickly, and it enables me to have time to focus on things like documentation that are tough to do in a busy office. That means I usually get that stuff done more quickly than my co-workers. There was a lot less snarking from management once they saw there was something in it for them).

      1. BelleMorte*

        As someone with a very visible disability (deaf, and a noticeable accent), I find that sometimes it’s a blessing in disguise because you can weed out the workplaces that will NOT be supportive or will be problematic, if they start being concerned about it right off the bat.

  3. Curiosity thrilled the cat*

    I went in for a job interview and there were 2 members from HR. Once we finished up questions, the one asked,”What burning question do you have? If you could ask anything/knowing something, what would it be?”

    What exactly are they looking for? They’re HR! How “wild” can you get? Is it like a freebie question? Am I missing something? (I asked a job-related question, but I don’t know if that was the right thing to do.)

    Any thoughts/comments are greatly appreciated!

    1. Wendie*

      Sounds like they just wanted you to ask the questions you really wanted answered and not feel like you had to beat around the bush. But the phrasing is kind of funny. That’s my guess!

    2. Rabbit*

      I think this is probably just “Do you have any questions for us?” phrased a bit more enthusiastically . Presumably the fact that they were from HR means that they should be well placed to answer any questions about benefits and process.

    3. ATX Language Learner*

      Hi! I think they are just asking a general question but the wording is off. From my perspective, just because they’re HR doesn’t really limit the kinds of questions you would ask normally in an interview versus let’s say a hiring manager. You could ask things about culture, remote policies, how the company invests in their employees, does the company change as work trends change (for example, remote policies, more casual work attire, things like that).

    4. Delta Delta*

      This feels like they wanted you to ask the hard questions. How do people get along? What’s the office culture? What does a typical day look like? That’s how I read this.

      1. Cat Fan*

        See, this is the kind of question I would expect to ask the hiring manager or whoever would be my direct supervisor, not someone in HR.

    5. fposte*

      Yeah, this is just a variant on “What questions do you have for us?” I think your question was probably fine.

    6. Seeking Second Childhood*

      You did what I’d have done — used it as an opening to ask a question about the job that I wanted answered.

    7. The Man, Becky Lynch*

      They’re just trying to be overly friendly and encourage you to not be shy just because they’re HR. I don’t speak that way but I go out of my way to tell staff and candidates alike that I’m not an ogre to be feared and I’m actually very much on their side, it’s not a “protect the company” position in our organization. It’s “protect us all and help us all” department.

      1. Jadelyn*

        +1000 People have this idea about HR and tend to assume they need to have an adversarial relationship with you unless you can set them at ease and head it off preemptively. I agree, this sounds like it was just those particular HR folks’ way of doing that.

        Re the actual question itself, I’d assume they did still mean work-related, but expanded past just questions directly related to the work you’d be doing – things like benefits, PTO, employee engagement programs, stuff that HR would be particularly well-positioned to answer for you.

    8. Ethyl*

      I agree with everyone else. They were probably just feeling a little punchy and went overboard with being “cool” and “friendly.” Especially if the interview was today (Friday) :)

      1. Juli G.*

        Yes, I am socially awkward and this is the sort of dumb thing I will say and be internally humiliated for saying for the next two months.

    9. TootsNYC*

      maybe they’re looking for “why DID the last person quit?” or “how late are the late-nights, really?” or “what’s the truth about work-life balance here?” or “What kind of evaluations does my would-be boss get from his employees?”

      2. Kat in VA*

        All questions I would LOVE to ask in an interview.

        “What was the main reason the last EA quit? The one true real reason they cited and I know it wasn’t an “opportunity” somewhere else.”

        “How does the exec act when things go completely pear-shaped? Does he yell, go quiet, blame people, get nasty, cry, lash out, double down on meetings?”

        “How hard are you going to give me side-eye if I have to work from home or leave early to pick up a sick kid?”

        “Do you REALLY mean it when you say you have a good work-life balance or are those just some cool buzzwords you picked up off the internet?”

        “I see you have 25 days of PTO awarded at the beginning of the year. Will I actually be able to USE that vacation, or will I be subtly discouraged from doing so because I’m so overloaded I can’t fathom turning off my laptop for one day…or my executive will give me static any time I try to take more than one day of PTO for myself?”

        “Do you have any processes, runbooks, SLAs, SOPs or anything of that nature, or is the general work culture one of fire drills?”

        “I have a hella strong work ethic. Will you recognize that and assist me in avoiding burning myself out, or will you take advantage and then get annoyed when I realize I can’t give 125% of myself seven days a week and dial back?”

        I could go on for DAYS with all the reeeeal questions I’d like to ask (but am too afraid to).

  4. Murphy*

    Is anyone familiar with CastleBranch for third party background checks? They’re supposedly ” one of the top 10 background screening and compliance tracking solutions companies in the nation,” but I’m going through a check with them now and I have some serious doubts about CB.

    The process of entering info into the form was clunky and weird. Some pages actually had no questions on them. They send me emails and the links to login and check my status don’t work (404 error). I can still login and check, they’re just sending me bad links. The email address they list to contact for help doesn’t exist. And when the background check results came back, they couldn’t verify my degree. There’s absolutely no reason that this should be the case. The whole thing feels really sketch, even though the employer is completely reputable.

    1. noahwynn*

      A former employer used them. I had the same issue with my degree and had to provide a copy of my transcripts to my employer. The HR dept said it happens all the time. I assume they have some database and for whatever reason our schools were not in there.

      I worked in safety and security and we had to complete a fingerprint based criminal history check through TSA anyways for most of our employees. So the CastleBranch thing was rather pointless in my opinion. I would agree though, they don’t seem to do much besides run a credit history to look for previous employers and addresses, somehow (not) verify education, and look through public records for criminal history.

    2. Dawn Catron*

      We use them all the time and have for years, they can be slow as molasses but they do eventually get it done.

      1. Murphy*

        Good to know. My “results” came back pretty quickly actually. They just couldn’t verify my degree.

        1. Checker*

          Where I work, we use the National Student Clearinghouse to verify degrees. Some schools don’t participate, sometimes they do but the degree still isn’t in there. Not sure what CastleBranch uses but I assume they don’t do the check physically themselves but subscribe to a database. So not terribly strange or alarming to hear it couldn’t be verified.

    3. Pay no attention to the man behind the curtain*

      I imagine for the degree that they are contacting the National Student Clearinghouse or other similar third-party organization to verify a degree, rather than go directly to your college or university. If your alma mater doesn’t contract with whomever they use to verify degrees, then CastleBranch just says they can’t verify it rather than go the extra step.

  5. Anon anony*

    My (awesome) boss retired last month. On job apps, when it asks for the name of my boss, can I still put her name, or should I put the name of my new boss? (Old boss was my boss for 5 years; new boss just became my boss this month.)

    1. Delta Delta*

      Could you say:
      Susannah Stringcheese (2014-9; retired)
      Wilberforce Wifflebat (2019-present)

      Seems like if you’re applying now you might want to include both since Susannah was your boss longer and could potentially have more to say.

      1. Lucky*

        This, but after a while I think you would want to list current boss as boss, and old boss as a reference if she’s willing. Bonus: you have a reference that knows your current work duties & performance, but you don’t have to worry about her knowing that you’re job searching.

    2. Laura H.*

      I would it old boss down (after okaying with them) and make a point to do “still good as a reference/ info checks” on them maybe every 3 months if you usually update that info semi annually.

      1. Fortitude Jones*

        Yup. The new boss hasn’t been around long enough to properly assess your skills.

    3. TootsNYC*

      I would put new boss in the company section, and when it asks for references, put old boss.

      Old boss doesn’t work at the company.

    4. Government Peon*

      To tag on this question, what if you left before boss retired, boss left for another job or opportunity (say decided to become a stay at home parent), or boss is now deceased? In some cases, I worked with the current person in that role, say I was the intern and the person still there was an assistant. In other situations, it’s a new staff and the shop is too small to have an HR department. This is not for the references section, but the job history part of the application.

  6. Flying Ghoti*

    I have a weird title situation and I was hoping for some advice. Basically I have an “HR title” that is on all of my HR docs, but which is basically a random jumble of terms related to my industry. Say I’m a chocolate teapot painter who also assists with handle design and my “HR title” is “Painting, Teapots, & Chocolate Assistant.” Because the “HR title” is so strange I have always used a more descriptive title for my day-to-day work communications (business cards, e-mail signature, listing on our website, etc.). This title has evolved slightly during the course of this job from “Teapot Painter & Handle Design Assistant” to “Teapot Painter & Handle Specialist” but the job itself has not changed and I’ve had the same “HR title” the entire time. My boss is aware of and approved the title I use.

    I am job searching and I have been listing the position on my resume as “Teapot Painter & Handle Specialist.” Since reading this AAM post: https://www.askamanager.org/2019/04/my-coworker-brags-about-how-rich-he-is-application-assignments-when-youre-on-vacation-and-more.html (#5 at the link) I have also added my official “HR title” in parentheses. However, I now have a phone interview coming up for one of the resumes I sent out before I read that post, so it only has my unofficial title. Should I address this in the phone interview? Just explain that my “HR title” and practical day-to-day title don’t match? Or should I leave it be? If it matters this is in higher ed, where I think this kind of situation is somewhat common.

    1. Wendie*

      Not every title is taken so serious, it depends on the company. I doubt it will come up but if you think you are nearing the reference stage you could email the hr person and let them know what your formal title is. Maybe something like I call myself this for clarity but my technical position is this. But really this is small stuff so don’t sweat!

    2. University of Trantor*

      At this stage, I think I would let it be unless it somehow naturally comes up in conversation. You’re already putting the official title in parentheses going forward, and, as you noted, official HR titles and public-facing job titles often don’t quite align in higher ed.

      The only slight glitch I would see is that specialist is usually considered a level or two higher than assistant, but still, I wouldn’t worry.

      1. Going anonymous for this one 2019*

        The levels vary too — we have an entry-level techpubs person starting in another region and they gave her the title of “editor”.
        (To anyone with a journalism or publishing background, that’s so wrong as to be upsetting. And it’s particularly upsetting because I’ve been laying the groundwork to get them to create that title here as a technical-specialist track promotion option instead of having to go into management. )

      2. Ally A*

        It can really vary. In my higher ed environment, “specialist” is lower than “assistant” – in fact, it’s usually a student worker position.

    3. Tom & Johnny*

      Use the title that fits the work you were doing.

      For a number of years I was a Case Assistant at a law firm. That means a paralegal in training. Unless you work in law firms you don’t know what that means. It was a nonsense term.

      The fact is I was a Junior Paralegal. I reported in to a Senior Paralegal and not to the attorneys, whom she reported to. Which makes obvious sense when you use the straightforward title of Junior Paralegal.

      To this day I title that role Junior Paralegal on my resumes and LinkedIn. No one has ever batted an eye, including legal-specialty recruiters who know very well that the HR title for those roles is typically something like Case Assistant.

      If I’m applying to a position where I feel the reviewers are incredibly particular and exacting, I will put the HR title in parentheses.

      Junior Paralegal (Case Assistant)
      2006-2008

      Law firms are doing this to Legal Secretaries now too. They call them everything now from Professional Assistants to Executive Legal Admins, to Administrative Legal Assistants (but not ‘Legal Assistant’ as that’s a crossover title for Paralegal). Anything but the straightforward title of Legal Secretary. Ugh it’s too complicated.

    4. pamela voorhees*

      Some terms in academia are fixed, like the difference between associate and assistant professor. If you don’t have a position like that, and it sounds like you don’t, I think it’s fine to just mention when it would be practical “my technical position title is XYZ, but that doesn’t fully communicate what I do, so I use ABC with my boss’s blessing.” If you treat it non-nonchalantly and as useful but not pressing information, they’re likely to treat it the same way.

    5. Cats and dogs*

      I would not bring it up because you are not being deceptive and not choosing to not disclose something important so bringing it up could be confusing or a inadvertent red flag.

  7. Foreign Octopus*

    Last week I posted that I was taking a proofreading course, and a couple of people asked me if I’d be willing to update them on my process, so here I am! Irene Adler, and I See Real People, this is for you.

    I’ve done one full week of the course that I can take at my own pace, which I’ve discovered is a good thing as commas have been kicking my ass. I never knew there were so many rules around when to use a comma and when not to, but there are, and it’s all awful. I had to pause my movement through the module, optimistically titled “Proofreading Basics”, to spend three full days trying to wrap my head around comma usage. I think I’ve got it down now, but oh my god it was hard. One thing I enjoy greatly about the course is that they followed the Chicago Manual of Style, which itself uses the Oxford Comma, and it’s nice to be with my people. The Oxford comma is clearly the superior form of comma.

    Despite the difficulties, and it being harder work than I expected, it’s been really interesting though. Mephyle noted last week that they have a slight obsession with grammar, which is something that I’m coming to appreciate. This is definitely a job for people who enjoy English grammar, or who at least don’t despise it.

    I’ve already noticed that it’s improving my own writing, which I do for fun; and when I’m correcting my students’ writings, I’m able to give them a fuller and more comprehensive reason as to why something is wrong, so I’m improving in my day job, which is brilliant.

    I haven’t started doing any official proofreading yet. I’ve done some online exercises that can be found simply by typing “online proofreading exercises” into a search bar, and that’s helping me find where I’m going wrong and what I need to revisit. I don’t think I’m going to try for proofreading jobs until I’ve finished the course as there’s just so much to learn, but this isn’t a get rich quick scheme, this is training, and I think that’s important to know going in.

    I should be finished with the rest of “Proofreading Basics” by next week, so I can give another update for those that are interested but the basic premise of this is:

    Proofreading, hard but fun.

    1. Elizabeth West*

      I wish I could find a course like this. I don’t have any expertise in the commonly used style guides like AP or Chicago Manual of Style (I did manage to get an AP stylebook but it’s outdated by a couple of years and the subscription costs money. Everything costs too much money.)

      The annoying superior relative was all like, “You write; get a proofreading job.” Well I’ve been looking, but I don’t have the required experience for those jobs. This is the same person who told me once to lie on my resume and in the next breath told me she had to fire a writer who lied about her credentials. Seriously, how can you have a degree in marketing and not know what the qualifications for a proofreading job are? Most of them are in very high-COL areas anyway and pay almost nothing, or are contract.

      I might look around for a course. From your description, it sounds like it could be helpful, even if I have to sell plasma to pay for it. Also, Oxford comma for the win! \0/

      1. Seeking Second Childhood*

        Community newspapers at least used to have *part time* proofreaders & copy-editors. That’s how I got formal editorial credentials on my resume in the early days when I changed my mind about my first career choice. It was part-time/evening, so I could keep job-hunting during the day.

        1. Bee's Knees*

          True! I was a full time copyeditor when I worked at the paper, but I did lots of other stuff besides editing. We had a lovely older man that proofed for us as well, and other than writing a column for the Sunday edition, that’s all he did.

      2. jmart*

        You might find something useful on Poynter’s News University site? They offer a bunch of online courses, from free to cheap to hundreds of dollars for the really comprehensive ones.

      3. Foreign Octopus*

        The course I’m taking is $497, but I paid $397 because I booked it straight away after watching an hour-long video and I got a $100 discount. If you pay an extra hundred, then you get a graded exam, but I didn’t want that.

        To be honest, I love the course, but a lot of it is simply just pointing me in the right direction. I have to do a lot of research, and finding my own sources, outside of it, but I do find it a really helpful guide, and I’m glad I’m taking it. It also provides me the Chicago Manual reference number to corrections, which is helpful and saves time, but it can be done without that; it’ll just take a little long. Money is an issue though, I get that. I’ve spent my last few hundred on this, and I’m hoping that it pays off.

        Yeah, I’m an ESL teacher, and people thought this would be an easy job for me. It’s not; it’s an entirely different skillset, so studying beforehand (not necessarily training) is essential.

        I’d be happy to send you some more information about it, although I’m not sure how to do that. Maybe go through, Alison?

        Let me know, and I’ll put some stuff together. The same goes for anyone else who’s interested :)

        1. Elizabeth West*

          Oh yeah hell no, that’s completely out of reach. I can’t pay anything or very little.

        2. Same here*

          I would like to learn more. Can you post the name of the course or is that not allowed..?

      4. CC*

        I was surprised to find a proofreading course at my local community college. May be worth another look and see if they offer summer courses in this!

      5. Hermione at Heart*

        FWIW it doesn’t matter that much if an AP stylebook is perfectly up to date. Some styles do change from year to year but the big ones usually get a lot of attention (dropping the hyphen in email, dropping the capital I in Internet, allowing you to use % instead of percent(!)). Most publications also vary a little bit from AP into whatever their “house style” is, which you’re not expected to know without working there. The core grammar guidance doesn’t change. I’d say you’d be fine with any stylebook from the past five years. (The 2014 version is $8 on Amazon.)

        If it’s a field you really want to break into, freelance proofreading is probably the way to go — try Upwork or other online job boards.

      6. Lilysparrow*

        You can take free qualification tests on Upwork and/or Guru in editing, proofreading, grammar, etc. (Or at least, this used to be a thing a couple of years ago. I assume it’s still the same). You can choose whether or not to show your score on your profile, and I think they have training modules as well.

        The pay rates can be obnoxiously low, but if you’re looking to get some experience for your resume, it’s free to find gigs. (They take a commission after you get paid).

        It wasn’t overnight, but I’ve parlayed the first few sucky jobs into some much better ones.

    2. Blue Bunny*

      The Oxford comma is clearly the superior form of comma.

      Anyone I work with who waves away the importance of the serial comma now gets a link to the Oakhurst Dairy “comma lawsuit”. Is your preference worth five million bucks? I’m guessing no. Everyone thinks pedants are a pain, until we save them a boatload of cash.

      2. Jadelyn*

        That is always my go-to defense of the Oxford comma! For want of a comma, the lawsuit was lost…

        1. General Ginger*

          The judge actually opened his statement with the phrase “For want of a comma, we have this case”!

    3. Lena Clare*

      Haha! I feel you.

      I did a proofreading course, even did some jobs after then, but it didn’t pay enough to be a regular gig (YMMV of course). I still enjoy doing it now and then, and I proofread for an author in exchange for their ARCs though.

      Good luck with it!

      1. MsChanandlerBong*

        That is my problem with proofreading. I LOVE it. If I didn’t need heat and food, I’d do it all day for free. I just love to read. But it pays so little that I would need to have around 200 clients all writing books throughout the year to make any kind of living out of it. I had several regular clients, but they could only produce one book per quarter, at most, so that left a lot of gaps in my income.

    4. Hepzibah Pflurge*

      I will gladly fight and die on the Oxford comma hill. Oxford comma FTW! Love everything about your post. Thank you for sharing.

      1. Works in IT*

        Oxford commas just make sense. “Color options for the new phone: blue, red, gold, black and white” is not the same as “Color options for the new phone: blue, red, gold, black, and white”

      3. Alli525*

        I wish I COULD fight and die on your hill! I work in PR, which means half of the stuff I write (editorial content) can use it, but everything else (press releases) cannot. It’s such a pain because the Oxford comma and I have been BFFs since I learned what it was.

    5. Some Sort of Management Consultant*

      Oh my god, the commas! the COMMAS!
      I think my English is excellent, all things considered, but the commas kill me *every* time.
      The rules are completely different in Swedish and in English, and I don’t notice until I go back and reread it and discover I’ve used a billion more commas than any native speaker would.

      It sounds like a useful course though!

      1. ThatGirl*

        My husband was an English major, he’s very smart and a good writer and a native English speaker and he still gets all screwed up with commas :)

        1. Elizabeth West*

          Same, and I still get dinged in Word by the grammar checker (and it’s all maddeningly inconsistent to boot).

    6. Close Bracket*

      I’d love to know which course it is. I used to be an editor for Cactus Communications. I’m now back to engineering, but I’d love to upgrade my editing and proofreading skills in case I need to go back in the future.

      1. Foreign Octopus*

        It’s called General Proofreading: Theory and Training. If you just type it into Google, it should come up first thing.

          1. Foreign Octopus*

            There are some terrible reviews, but there are also good reviews as well, and it’s finding the balance for me; I’m waiting until I finish the end of the course to have a full review of it (so nobody go out and do anything until I can report back!), but it has been helping me. It’s not a course that you use as a certificate, but rather something you use as guidelines to push yourself forward.

            Part of me thinks that if you’re really proactive, then you can learn all of this without the course, you just need to know where to start.

            I’m not very proactive though, and I need the kick in the bum that a structured outline gives, so this is good for me.

            I’ll see how I feel about it at the end of the course though.

    7. irene adler*

      HI- Sorry for the “late to the party” response.
      Thanks so much for taking the time to share this.
      (Okay, I had to look up the Oxford Comma you mentioned. Never knew that was a thing. But it always bugged me when the comma was omitted. So- I learn something!)

      I found copy editing courses near me. Yeah, not quite the same thing. Found it interesting that the program starts with ~$500 for a course of weekly exams to test one’s grammar knowledge.

  8. King of an Island*

    My small office added new staff this week (2 new people to a team of 4, now 6) and I think we’re struggling with the transition. We’ve probably become a little cliquish without realizing it and we’ve gotten comfortable chatting about topics that are probably too controversial because we know each other well. How can we re-set without people feeling like we “lost” our close knit team because of the “new people”? I have already heard pushback and grumbling.

    1. Dragoning*

      Maybe try focusing on talking to the newbies and getting them to open up a little first? It might, at least, be a distraction from not being “able” to talk about what they want to talk about. You have new conversation topics!

      1. Coffee Bean*

        Yes! Just talk to them, get to know them. Maybe even do a team lunch or two over the next few months?

      2. King of an Island*

        Yes, we definitely did a team lunch, but I think we need some “next steps”

      3. Wannabe Disney Princess*

        As someone who came into a new, smaller team recently I second this. It can be intimidating to try and edge your way in on a conversation if there’s a clique-y feel.

        It doesn’t have to be any big thing. I’ve appreciated when they were discussing GOT (which I don’t watch) someone throwing out, “Wannabe Disney Princess – favorite characters. Go!” I couldn’t answer the question, but it was nice to be included.

    2. aryalistening*

      We’re adding someone to our team of 3 (soon to be 4) next week. I’v already set the expectation with the team that we’ll want to be alert for cues that the new person doesn’t share some of the views/habits we’ve become more comfortable sharing with each other–whether it’s political discussions or simple music preferences. I told them that while it’s been nice to be so similar to/comfortable with each other to this point, it’s also very normal in the workplace (and will be fine) if we have to ‘pull back’ a bit on those topics when the new person starts; our first priority is that everyone is professional/pleasant with each other, and then we’ll see what’s possible from there. I do plan to encourage that the other two, who are good friends, still take lunches together, etc. so that they’re still able to bond as friends–that way they’ll hopefully feel better about reining in the cliquish-ness during actual work time.

    3. merp*

      I’m not sure how easily this translates to a work setting, but when I joined a friend group that known each other a little longer already, one of them was particularly really good about noticing when a story happened before I was around, and would briefly give the background so I could be in on the joke. Never condescending, just inclusive. Making a mental note to pay attention to any insitutional knowledge that gets talked about without background might help.

      1. Jordijojo*

        ^This. At my previous job my coworkers were pretty cliqueish and I generally struggle with knowing how to break into discussions. If somebody would’ve simply acknowledged my presence while they were talking (our desks were all next to each other) it would’ve made it so much easier to feel comfortable chiming in. People who try to include everyone in the conversation are saints for us shy people.

    4. Owler*

      Identify the change out loud with the original staff. Many people shy away about talking about the loss of closeness, but I think if you give the old people the benefit of the doubt and give them a chance to talk about it, it might ease the transition.

    5. Federal Middle Manager*

      It’s hard to include new people in old habits because they will always feel a bit behind in a “you had to be there” way. A better approach is to do NEW things with everyone. Instead of going to the same old lunch spot, try a place that just opened up. Open meetings with ice breakers where everyone share new information (rather than “Newbies, tell us about your last job” try “Everyone, go around the circle and tell us about your first summer job.” This puts people on a more even footing, and new and old coworkers can have something to bond over (“I worked at Dairy Queen in high school, too!”).

    6. pamela voorhees*

      Maybe assign one of the old guard as a social mentor to the new people? It really concerns me that there’s already grumbling of the new people ruining everything – you don’t want to turn into that office where they’d run off anyone new with “that’s not how Tricia did it!” or whathaveyou. If you can get one person to be directly responsible for integrating them into the group, it might go better than everyone thinking “well, I said hello and said ‘how about that weather?’ to them when I walked in, and now I can safely ignore them for the rest of the day and go back to what I did before.” It’d be tricky because you don’t want someone to feel like a babysitter, but pulled off well I think it’d be much easier for them to join the group if they have an advocate, so to speak.

    7. Spooooon!!*

      The book Managing Transitions by William Bridged has excellent advice regarding any sort of change. His main credo is that too many people try to jump into the new way of doing things before allowing people to accept the change
      He says a neutral ground needs to be reached first. This can apply to even seemingly small transitions.

    8. China Beech*

      I’m glad that as part of the established group you can acknowledge the sometimes “cliquish” atmosphere. Last year I joined a similar small team and it is STILL very cliquish, even to the point that the supervisor that has worked with the other three people gives THEM all the “good” work and the two of us “new” folks have to fight for scraps. To add to the “fun” we are getting another new person soon. I don’t really see away out of this other than out, since I already asked the boss for more work in addition to the next-level boss. That was a long winded way of saying good for you, thank you for your efforts, and I wish you and your group all the best!

  9. Wunderment*

    I’m pretty sure I was a free consultant disguised as an interviewee.

    I went in for a four hour interview with a highly reputable company. I ended up blabbing on for hours about how they could improve the product they’re working on. They never asked me any questions about myself, I tried to redirect the conversation that way, but just little nods here and there and then back to their product.

    I was told I would hear something by the end of the week. Never heard back. Two weeks after the interview, I followed up and heard within the hour they are going to reach out to more candidates. I see on their website and on LinkedIn they reposted the job.

    I am so embarrassed. I wasted so much of my time and I feel like they were never interested in me anyway. This was after two phone screenings. I flew across the company for this opportunity (they paid, luckily).

    1. Sloan Kittering*

      I don’t think embarrassment is necessary here! It sounds like you were genuine in presenting your ideas, the interview was kind of weird, and they just decided to go a different way. I didn’t hear that they actually implemented any of your changes so I don’t think they (paid to fly you across country) to just use you as a “free consultant.” It sounds like it just wasn’t a good fit.

      1. Fortitude Jones*

        Agreed. I could see if the company hadn’t paid for the travel and the OP saw her work had also been implemented afterward, but it sounds like for, whatever reason, they didn’t ask you a ton of questions about yourself because they didn’t think you’d be the right fit for the role. And don’t beat yourself up over that, either. Everything isn’t for everybody – you’ll find a company that will appreciate your enthusiasm and work ethic soon.

    2. mark132*

      My old manager would actually stop an interview when we were getting too much “free” consulting from a candidate, with a comment to the effect that anymore advice and we would owe the candidate a consulting fee.

    3. MissDisplaced*

      I wanted to post today on a topic of a similar note.
      Because I’ve had a few job interviews where it felt more like I was being pumped for market intel and the maybe the job wasn’t even real. I wanted to ask HR people if their company makes them do that.

    4. The Man, Becky Lynch*

      I’m so sorry that you were treated like this!

      I know it’s easy to feel shame or guilt when we’re taken advantage of but you didn’t do anything wrong. They are the jerks.

    5. Mellow*

      It’s like you’re there because they’re out of ideas, and not because you’re actually interviewing for a position. I don’t mean to sound glib at all, but you’ve probably dodged a bullet, though I know it feels like such a time-waster. I ‘m sorry it happened to you.

  10. Rosie The Rager*

    How to effectively tell boss I don’t want more hours or more responsibility?

    Since January, I have worked part-time as a PR specialist for a tiny PR/marketing firm overseeing external communication such as social media, press releases, newsletter submissions, etc. I work two days a week for about seven hours each day and spend the rest of my time scheduling doctors appointments, job interviews for full-time positions and self-improvement activities.

    My supervisor, the business owner, approached me last week about working more hours and stating that I “needed to be more flexible” with my schedule because of a possible contract to create blog posts and other materials for a local hospital. I don’t want to work more hours and want to relay this without being unkind.

    I also have concerns about my boss’ communication style, particularly as she has some type of learning disorder and cannot manage her time. This has caused serious issues meeting with prospective clients and onboarding for the new administrative assistant. When the owner is unavailable, I have stepped in to the extent I can. However, I have both limited knowledge and time to address the issues outside of my direct responsibilities.

    Consequently, for the time being I am happy to work about 14 hours weekly and collect my small paycheck twice a month. I have adapted to living modestly and spending my free time trying to better myself through online education and in-person volunteering. The extra money for the additional hours is insufficient to compensate me for the lost free time for appointments, interviews and other obligations.

    What would your recommended script be to tell her about my preferences without making it feel like a rejection of her kindness or the job itself?

    1. Interplanet Janet*

      “Our current arrangement is actually the perfect work-life balance for me, and I’m really not interested in changing it. I’m of course willing to help out if there’s a specific temporary need [if that’s true], but my preference is to keep things the way they are now.” Maybe?

      1. Rosie The Rager*

        Interplanet Janet, I really like that phrasing, particularly the “work-life balance.” Thanks for the helpful suggest script.

        2. Interplanet Janet*

          Thank you! I’m a newer reader/commenter and it took me a little time to find something I liked :)

          #galaxygirl for those of us of a certain #schoolhouserock age :D

          1. Jules the 3rd*

            A solar system Ms. from a future world…

            I might have DVDs of School House Rock that I might have played obsessively for my kid’s first 5 years… Screen time limit? What screen time limit?

    2. SpellingBee*

      I’d just cheerfully and matter-of-factly tell her no thanks to the extra hours, that the current schedule works well for you and you’re happy with the way things are. You can frame it as appreciating her offer, but really she’s asking you to expand your schedule for her convenience, not yours. If she takes on more work than she and the available staff can handle, that’s her responsibility and she’ll have to figure it out; you don’t “need” to do anything other than what you’ve been hired for.

      1. Rosie The Rager*

        SpellingBee, I normally would agree with you. However, given Missy’s learning disability and her tantrum about six weeks ago that involved screaming at me “I respect the hell out of you” and throwing her jacket on the floor before stomping upstairs and slamming several doors and declining to speak with me for three hours before dropping an assignment on my desk and leaving.

        The incident has never been addressed since, so I’ve tried to put it in my rear view mirror. Still, it has affected my trust and comfort level with her.

        1. Marthooh*

          Hmm. I think it doesn’t really matter what script you use; you can’t force her to be reasonable and polite. “No, I won’t be able to do that” along with, maybe, “but thanks for offering!” or “I’m sure you can find someone else to help you with that!” And then if she reacts badly, remind yourself she’s responsible for her own behavior. It will be unpleasant, but not as unpleasant as spending more time every week with an out-of-control boss.

          1. JulieCanCan*

            Yeah, I wouldn’t really worry about the phrasing or presentation – or any kind of negotiation. If she reacts as you described then there isn’t a tone or inflection “light” enough. Someone that irrational won’t like what you have to say regardless of how much consideration you put into it.

            Sorry, she sounds kinda atrocious. Stick to what makes you happy and feeling good, that’s all that matters. Maybe you would want to work more if you worked for someone NOT like that. : / (unfortunately you can’t say that to her)

        2. IndoorCat*

          Whoa. That’s intense. I… I wouldn’t keep working there any longer than I had to. That’s so out-of-the-norm of acceptible behavior from a boss that I worry that most sensible scripts won’t be able to prevent an extreme reaction.

          Also, for what it’s worth, there are a lot of people in professional fields who have learning disabilities, and they don’t throw things, slam doors, scream or give people the silent treatment at work. I know some neurological issues affect, say, spatial awareness and mood regulation, but even the people I know who have those issues, like, they’re more prone to tearfulness, or needing to step back and take a breather when stressed, they don’t have temper tantrums and blame their disability.

          I only bring this up because when people use their disability or mental illness as an excuse to treat others poorly, it further stigmatizes disabled / mentally ill people, like myself. It confirms the worst stereotypes in the minds of abled / mentally well people who may have subconscious biases already (as almost everyone does). Stuff like that makes me so frustrated.

          I guess I encourage everyone to separate the crappy things people do from whether or not they have a disability. Missy sounds like an awful boss, and she probably would be awful even if her neurology or learning style was more typical.

    3. Not A Manager*

      Why can’t you just say, “I’m sorry, I’m not available to work additional hours”? I don’t see why you need any explanation or backstory.

      I’d start with that. If she pushes, which it sounds like she will, I would still be as bland as possible. “I have other commitments,” “it just won’t work for me,” etc. I think referring to “work-life balance” sounds a lot like “I have other things that I prefer over working here,” which, while true, is probably not what she wants to hear.

      1. Rosie The Rager*

        Not A Manager, I have tried that twice and it didn’t go as planned. Missy, the owner, takes everything personally, and her automatic response is to get terribly defensive, curse and sometimes storm out of the room. It’s neither pretty nor professional.

        Still, as I responded to InterPlanet Janet, I will reiterate the work-life balance angle and see what happens.

        1. Ethyl*

          Are you able to just let her be mad? Sometimes (SOMEtimes) unreasonable and demanding people will change their approach if they realize you can, actually, live with them being mad, even mad AT you. I know it’s really hard, if you can even fake it till you get home, it may help.

          1. valentine*

            I’m surprised you’re not looking to leave the chaos and abuse. Does she want you stepping in for her? I’d stop that.

            Be prepared for her to want to replace you with someone who can work more hours. Maybe look for other part-time work in case that happens.

        2. JJ*

          It’s not pretty, sure – but it’s survivable. Let her have her hissy fit. You’re not available.

    4. The Man, Becky Lynch*

      I really like the first script. This conveys that you’re happy and the arrangement works well for you. If pressed, I would explain that you took the part time job because it fit well with your schedule and the work/life balance that suits your needs best.

      If she’s grumpy about it or whatever, that’s on her. You do not owe anyone more than what you signed up for. Yes, part time jobs may grow to bigger closer to full time positions but that isn’t a given, nor should it ever be banked on! So she needs to be flexible too and reel in her expectations and dreams. It’s unfair and unprofessional to pressure you after you have expressed that you don’t want to or simply cannot change how things are done.

      I suppose the most you could do to compromise is to say that you cannot add extra hours but perhaps you can change the days? Would it be possible to work the same hours but spread them through three days instead of two? Or would that drain you just as much for the same pay? That’s some flexibility without giving up too much more free time, depending on your commute and the cost of it.

    5. PhDinTraining*

      Given your additional information, I’m wondering if part of this is a Captain Awkward “reasons are for reasonable people” situation. Your boss doesn’t sound reasonable, so the less reasons the better? I’ve found that some people scoff at work-life balance, so I’m a little skeptical that will work. Maybe, “unfortunately my current schedule doesn’t allow for more hours or other days.”?

    6. Auntie Social*

      Explain why you’re not the droid she’s looking for: you have limited knowledge of ABC process and it shows, the last time X and Y happened, those aren’t your responsibilities, etc. Really, you’re doing her a favor by not meeting with clients when Lynn is right down the hall and does it so well, etc.

  11. Millennial Lizard Person*

    Our IT department is so innovative. I got back from a week’s vacation and noticed I only had 100 emails. Turns out IT somehow removed me from all my list-servs. I’m not the first person this has happened to, but let me tell you, it’s way more difficult to get caught back up when you don’t have any emails of what’s happened!

    1. JustaTech*

      Oh, the joys of “helpful” e-mail systems. Ours has randomly decided to not allow any emails from several of our vendors. Like, companies we’ve been working with for years will suddenly be unable to send us emails. It’s hard to figure out when it’s happened (gosh, Widgets general sure is flaky all the sudden), it’s hard to fix, and I ended up having to get work emails sent to my personal email for half a week!

      Yay email!

  12. Academic Newbie*

    Seeking advice for a friend… “Sansa” is an Assistant Professor at a US university and a PI on a grant funded by an agency of the US government. Her co-PI “Arya” works at the same institution but is planning to immigrate to Canada because her spouse got a job there. Is there any way that Sansa can keep paying Arya to work on their grant even though Arya will be in a foreign country and will no longer be associated with an institution?

    1. Holly*

      This sounds like a legal question for university attorneys to handle, not a job advice question.

    2. Not my usual name*

      That’s going to highly depend on the agency and what costs they consider allowable. It might move Arya to contractor status instead of a PI, Sansa should talk to her research administrators who would know more. (I am not a research administrator but am RA adjacent.)

    3. RR*

      Compliance person from a USG-funded non-profit research organization here. It really depends on the terms and conditions of Sansa’s grant, as well as her University’s requirements. USG Agencies typically designate PIs as “Key Personnel,” which means that changes here may well require their approval. A lot of organizations require that a PI be a regular staff member. That being said, Sansa may be able to hire Arya to continue work on the grant, but she should consult with her office of sponsored research.

    4. Justme, The OG*

      If Arya can be employed by the university still, then yes. We had a research associate move across the country and still pay her. Just make sure she can be still employed by your institution – ask HR.

    5. Asenath*

      Sansa and Arya need expert advice. University hiring and funding practices are arcane – throw a resident of a foreign country into the mix, and it just gets worse. They need someone who knows both the University rules AND the rules for the grant. It wouldn’t hurt to look into taxation issues for Arya, especially if she’s a US citizen. The US it almost the only country in the world that collects taxes from its citizens when they’re abroad. I am no expert, but I think there’s US/Canadian tax treaties that mean if an American working in Canada pays Canadian taxes, they can deduct those from their US taxes, but they MUST file for taxes in both countries (due to US laws) and that can get complicated and, if you need one of those accountants who specializes in international tax law, it can get expensive too.

      1. Psyche*

        I agree the weird rules and hoops to jump through. Additionally, there will likely be university politics involved. If there is another PI doing similar research at the university as Arya, there may be pressure to have that PI step in instead.

    6. Not in US*

      Is Sansa getting a job in Canada at a University? If she is, it’s probably doable but there will be some hoops (and may depend on what capacity she’s hired – research staff vs faculty). I have seen sub-grants from various US government agencies come to our institution but they have to be held by a faculty member (normally tenured or tenure-track).

    7. Nesprin*

      There is an office of grants people at every university who should answer this question, since grant policies are about as complex and arcane as tax law. IMHO- prob not for DOD/DOE grants, possibly for NIH/NSF but Sansa’s grant office and the granting agency can answer this question. Occasionally for profit companies can be hired under grants- Sansa’s collaborator could essentially be a company/consultant if unaffiliated and if okayed by grant people on both sides. .

    8. money fairy*

      I work for a federal grant program and our grant agreements are legal documents between the agency and the university, not the PIs. A change in PI would require approval of the awarding office, but it’s up to the university to propose a strategy and make sure it meets their legal obligations. Possibilities I’ve discussed with recipients have included ideas like keeping Arya on as a research associate or adjunct research professor eligible to receive grant funding but not benefits through the university, or moving the cost of her salary from the “personnel” category to “contracting” and giving justification for sole-source procurement of her services. (This could potentially be complicated with her working outside of the US, I’m not sure, I haven’t run across that variation before.) I don’t say this often, but the limits may come more from the university/HR side than the federal.

    9. Ama*

      Seconding everyone’s advice on this — Sansa’s best bet is to be completely upfront with the funding agency and let them know ahead of time what is about to happen and ask whether it is possible to keep Arya on the grant. I work for a funder (not-government) and it is so much worse for everyone involved when a PI does not disclose a change to the structure of their grant until after it has already happened.

      Sometimes if the PI discloses upfront the situation the funder can work with them to find a compromise (or sometimes it is allowable within their policies anyway) — but if it is discovered after the fact that Arya had a chance in employment status that was not disclosed Sansa and the university could be in big trouble and the funder may have no choice but to cancel or rescind funding.

    10. Natatat*

      Seconding some of the other comments that this is a question for the grant funding agency, not AAM. I work in Awards and Scholarships at a university and general advice can’t be used for awards/scholarships/grants, you have to consult the specific grant funding agency for your specific grant to get the correct policy. Policies vary widely between awards/grants etc, so general advice won’t be useful. If it’s anything like the grant funding agencies up here in Canada, the funding agency are used to getting questions like this and respond pretty quickly.

    11. Interplanet Janet*

      This is *NOT* advice, per se, but reminds me of a story.

      Many years ago, I had a campus job as an athletic trainer. We were salaried, year-long employees; the hours varied greatly, but were definitely more hours per week during football season than any other time. One year I got really sick right at the beginning of the spring semester and wound up dropping out and having to go home, two states away. When I told my boss, he was worried that not paying me for the second half of the year would mean there wouldn’t be a budget for me for the next year. He tried to see if he could split the pay up between the other trainers, but he couldn’t, and the whole rest of that year, twice a month I got a paycheck mailed to my school mailbox. Where it was forwarded to me at home.

    12. Kimmybear*

      Agreeing with everyone here that you need expert advice. Talk not only to your school’s grants office but also the international faculty advisor/team. Depending on where the work is completed and her legal status in Canada, her visa may be a limiting factor more than the funding mechanism. (I’ve worked on USG grants as well as with international scholars so have seen the many ways things can go sideways.)

    13. tamarack and fireweed*

      Sansa needs to talk with her fiscal officer. If that person is too junior in the office of grants/sponsored programs/whatever it’s called in her institution, she needs to talk with an experienced grant administrator. They can sort it out if it can be sorted out.

      1. tamarack and fireweed*

        (Note that these are the people who can talk with the fiscal officer on the other side of this grant – the funding org. All depends on the rules that apply to that particular program. Given that they started as co-PIs, all sides have an interest in figuring out a way to make the grant successful. )

  13. NewGlassesGirl*

    Add to the weird list of things that have happened to me at work: Intern from different department serenaded me while I was trying to make my 9 AM coffee.

    1. Coffee Bean*

      LOL… I just spit coffee on my keyboard. What a wonderfully odd thing for the Intern to do.

    2. Rosie The Rager*

      NewGlassesGirl, I’m not sure whether to be envious of the morning serenade or worried for you! I hope the intern could at least carry a tune and sang something you didn’t mind hearing at 9 a.m. before having your coffee.

    3. knitter*

      I have been serenaded several times in the hallways by a 60 something male who is a former actor. So at least the singing is high quality. I just take it as another indicator of his perceived self-importance.

      1. Cheesesteak in Paradise*

        I’m picturing Heath Ledger (RIP) singing “Can’t Take My Eyes off You” to Julia Stiles…

        Though if that’s the case, your intern is creepy…

      2. NewGlassesGirl*

        Wish I knew, I was in utter shock and could not pinpoint the song. I started fake coughing to try to avoid laughing.

    6. Bananatiel*

      I just had a flashback to a coworker that did that to me once years ago. He was on the glee club in college and made sure everyone knew lol.

    7. Zona the Great*

      I’ve totally had this happen! A guy kinda cornered me in the break room whilst at the fridge. I literally pretending it wasn’t happening, nodded blankly, side-stepped him and walked out! I listened as the singing sort of faded out as I walked away. Gold.

    8. Happy Lurker*

      I worked as a teenage cashier and one of the baggers used to serenade us in the early mornings when it was quiet. He was so funny. He would show up 3o minutes to an hour late and simply say “I was watching a movie” and then start to sing.

    9. CDM*

      I had a delightful moment at OldJob, when for some inexplicable reason, two of the (male, college-aged) lifeguards burst inexplicably into “I Enjoy Being a Girl.” Both were very good singers, I have no idea why that happened at that moment, and I never heard either of them sing before or since. And why were two guys who graduated high school circa 2008 familiar enough with that song to be able to sing it well and a capella?

  14. I don't want to have to leave*

    TL, DR: I am worried about having to start reporting to a very difficult personality. As it is now, I have to work with him, and it’s very unpleasant.

    The long, long story: My company recently hired Oscar, who is in the process of transitioning from male to female. Right now he wears male clothes, with full makeup and lots of jewelry. He has told us to use male pronouns for the time being. I mention this to illustrate that this was how Oscar appeared during the hiring process and to say that I am grateful to work at a company for whom his appearance and his journey are irrelevant. He was hired on his skills and experience, which are genuine. I don’t think that that would be true for all employers.

    I would also like to believe that the fact that Oscar is transitioning is irrelevant to the difficulties I and other employees are having with him, but it doesn’t seem to be the case. Oscar brings a lot of good experience to our company and currently has the ear of the senior leadership for his new ideas and energy. For the people below senior leadership, there are issues with his communication style. Here are a few examples.

    He exaggerates his accomplishments, his experience, his entire back story. The exaggerations are internally inconsistent, so you don’t know what to believe. Prior to coming here, he had his own consulting firm that, to hear him talk, was wildly successful. His story is that he had to give it up because the cost of health insurance for a small business was too expensive. That’s understandable, but our health insurance is really not great. It’s a high deductible plan that is hugely unpopular with employees, which shows up in online reviews on job search sites. Repeatedly saying he came here for the insurance raises eyebrows, but maybe any company-paid insurance is better than no insurance.

    Then stories about how his company was not that successful soon surfaced, and it required zero Google Fu to find the Go Fund Me where he and his spouse were asking for money to pay for basic living expenses (rent, utilities, etc.) as well as a site where they sold one of their cars to stave off eviction. Per the Go Fund Me, he lost a bunch of clients and was facing bankruptcy. But, no, it was the most successful consulting firm that ever consulted, except for that pesky insurance issue, and he tells us that every day, in a way that implies he’s slumming to be working here.

    Oscar submitted his resume through a current employee, Constance, whom he’d met several times through a professional association. This turned into, “Constance begged me for years to come work here. I kept saying “no,” but she finally wore me down because she knew how much I was needed, and I agreed to apply.” Constance says that Oscar emailed his resume to her while networking for a new position, and she passed it along to our recruiters. No begging whatsoever took place.

    He’s rigid. If something isn’t filed in the online folder where he thinks it should be filed or the file isn’t named according to his naming convention, he’ll send out an email to all and sundry about how he’s identified a gap in our process because X isn’t being done. The response is always that the company is doing X and here’s the location where you can find the file. He’s done that more than once, because, I guess, asking your coworkers is more time consuming than copying all of upper management on an email in order to make himself look good by identifying a gap that only he can resolve. When he reorganized an online project site another employee, Nancy, had set up, he deleted the files he felt were unnecessary. She lost work. IT was able to recover it, but she now feels she has to keep copies of her work on her hard drive to protect herself.

    Then there’s the temper tantrums. If someone disagrees with Oscar or pushes back on an issue in a meeting, he will close his notebook with a snap, say something like, “I guess I’m done here,” stand up, and exit the conference room. The first time it happened I was stunned. Now it just another Thursday.

    He has told people here that he has experienced discrimination and harassment in his life since he started transitioning, and I have no reason to be believe that it’s not true. We don’t live in a perfect world. So, there’s a part of me that feels enormous sympathy for him.

    But, if you ask him to stop exiting meetings when someone disagrees with him or to ask where a configuration management plan is before sending an inflammatory email saying that the company must not be doing configuration management, his response is that because he’s transitioning he has to be extra assertive and his own cheerleader, so to speak; that he’s not going to apologize for being who he is; and that he’s going to keep on speaking his truth. If you ask him to stop the disruptive behaviors, he’ll tell you that you are not accepting him as the person he is now. Whereas the general feeling among the rest of us is that, if someone routinely disrupts meetings or deletes someone else’s work, it doesn’t matter who they are. The behavior just needs to stop. We feel like we walk on eggshells every day, never knowing what’s going to cause another event.

    The question (finally): Wow, that got long. As I said, he has the ear of upper management, and there are rumors that a reorganization would have me and a couple other colleagues reporting to him. I really like this company, and I don’t want to have to change jobs, but I think if I had to report to him, I’d have to. It seems really unfair to me, but so much of work like is unfair. Does anyone have any advice about how to handle a coworker like this?

    1. Wendie*

      Leave his gender out of it for sure. Even reading it in your comment which is intended to be transparent makes me wonder if there is some implied relationship. But I think you can ask as you would for any other person or situation. Good management likes happy people.

      1. Wendie*

        I used the pronouns you supplied but rereading I am not sure that those are oscars. My apologies

        1. NotMyRealName*

          OP says that Oscar has indicated that males pronouns are preferred at this point.

      2. Asenath*

        Well, it sounds like Oscar is responding to complaints about his office behaviour by referencing his transition – and that it means he must be “extra assertive”! (As for the pronouns, they’re apparently Oscar’s choice.)

        I have no advice that I wouldn’t give to anyone dealing with an unreasonable co-worker who might become a boss – work around the situation as best you can and start looking for somewhere else, because it sounds like Oscar isn’t going anywhere if upper management really likes hiim.

        1. Fortitude Jones*

          Does upper management really like him, or are they concerned about reprimanding him for his behavior and how that would look alongside his transitioning process? If they’re afraid of discrimination claims, and Oscar has full out told people at this company that he’s faced discrimination in the past due to his transition, maybe they’re being overly accommodating so as to not upset him and have those accusations thrown their way? Just a thought.

        2. I don't want to have to leave*

          Yes, he does respond to complaints about his over-the-top behavior with references to his transition, which is the reason I included it in my post. And I think, to some extent, that upper management is bending over backwards for him because they don’t want to be seen as being insenstive.

          1. Artemesia*

            This kind of crap needs to be dealt with strongly by management at the start. They hired him knowing he was transitioning; I think they are basically good on the discrimination front. His manager needs to come down hard on the behavior which is a separate issue. If they haven’t the courage to do this then you need to start looking for a new job. It is always easier to deal with this at the start; 6 mos from now they won’t have a chance.

    2. Media Monkey*

      wow. have upper management not got anything to say about the flouncung out of meetings if he gets any mild criticsm and him deleting people’s work?

      1. I don't want to have to leave*

        He’s flounced out of one meeting with his boss that I’ve been witness to. I don’t know if anything has been said to him or not.

    3. Master Bean Counter*

      Oscar is an ass. A self-absorbed pompous ass. As far as I know there are no treatments for that. But boy how I wish there was…..
      Onto the good side Oscar will probably either flame out or fly away on his own hot air shortly enough. On the bad side Oscar is setting a terrible precedent for other who may come along after him who also are transitioning.
      In the mean time try to separate the fluff from the work and push the fluff aside as much as possible.

    4. Zephy*

      Oscar is an asshole, and that has nothing to do with his gender identity or ~personal journey.~

      If you ask him to stop the disruptive behaviors, he’ll tell you that you are not accepting him as the person he is now.

      Oscar, the person you are now is an asshole. Your behavior is unprofessional and needs to change.

      Whereas the general feeling among the rest of us is that, if someone routinely disrupts meetings or deletes someone else’s work, it doesn’t matter who they are. The behavior just needs to stop.

      You’re right. It does. Are you, as a group, able to talk to upper management about Oscar’s behavior?

      1. Fortitude Jones*

        Oscar, the person you are now is an asshole.

        This actually really made me laugh out loud. I imagine Lorraine Bracco as Dr. Melfi on The Sopranos saying this in the calmest most deadpan way, and it amuses me.

    5. PhyllisB*

      I have absolutely no experience with transitioning, but I assume if he’s transitioning to female that he is taking hormones? Perhaps he’s having a bad reaction to them. Now before everyone lambastes me for sounding old-fashioned and sexist, it’s a well-known fact that hormone fluctuations do cause extreme mood swings. PMS? Pregnancy? Post-partum depression? Menopause? All of these can cause distressing temperament changes. Now having said all that, it’s not okay to use this as an excuse to mistreat co-workers. I don’t know if this would be acceptable, but if there’s someone in the office who is particularly close to him they could suggest he consult with his doctor(s). If this would be a no no, then y’all are going to have to keep calling him out on his behavior. The exaggerations you might not can do anything about, but when told to stop being disruptive and he counters with you aren’t accepting him as the person he is, you will have to counter with it has nothing to do with accepting him as the person he is, but he’s being a jerk and it needs to stop pronto. Maybe in more polite terms, but you get my point. Ideally, management would address this, but if he has all their support, is there anyone else who can be enlisted?

      1. Jadelyn*

        I’m going to chime in with “no, absolutely not acceptable” re suggesting Oscar talk to a doctor about transition-related hormone issues. Just…don’t. Keep the focus narrow and tight on Oscar’s behavior issues, not any hypothetical transition-related medical whatnot. If Oscar wants to talk to the doc about the behavior being potentially related to hormone stuff, great, but that’s not something that other people ought to be suggesting.

        1. Fortitude Jones*

          Right, especially since being a lying liar who lies isn’t typically a hormone issue.

      2. Some Sort of Management Consultant*

        Well, i can think of very few situations where mentioning someone’s potential medical issues as a cause of bad behavior would be okay.
        I have terrible PMS but my god would I despise a colleague or boss who tried to talk to me about that.
        Really, WHY Oscar is behaving like this is irrelevant. The behavior needs to be addressed regardless of cause,

      3. Not So NewReader*

        “No, Oscar, anyone who deletes someone’s work would get spoken to about the incident. This has nothing to do with transitioning and everything to do with deleting someone’s work.”

      4. JokeyJules*

        I mean, the hormones thing means that essentially Oscar is going through a second puberty, on top of the huge changes they are making in other aspects of their life and the stress that comes along with it.

        That is a possible explanation but not an excuse. Oscar is still wildly out of line acting as unprofessionally as they are, and that is what needs to be addressed. Why Oscar is like this is moot in regards to OP.

      5. Lauren*

        That is a horrible idea. Can you imagine saying to a woman “I think you might be having PMS / PMDD and you should speak to a doctor about it?” Or to a pregnant woman “I think your take on Meeting X might be off because of your pregnancy hormones?”

        1. JaneB*

          As someone who used to be regularly asked if I had taken my anti depressant whenever I disagreed with my colleague because I was “just being SO negative, clearly it was due to my mental issues”… leave the medical stuff out of it. The suggestion inevitably made me want to start really acting up…

      6. designbot*

        The part you’re right about is that any hormone changes can really impact a person’s behavior and general outlook. I’m on a totally different sort of hormone that my body doesn’t make enough of (or, it makes it, but my immune system destroys it, whatever), and whenever I adjust dosage I get paranoid AF. Generally for around 2 weeks or so every slight to me becomes So Important™ and indefensible and oh no the sky is falling. Then my body adjusts and I come out of the clouds and can’t figure out why it all even mattered so much.
        The part where you’re wrong is, that’s not the office’s business. What IS the office’s business is “hey, the way you’re acting isn’t cool and we need you to treat your coworkers better than this.” It’s on Oscar (and in my case, me) to hear that, figure out why they do what they do, and do what it takes to fix that, whether it be medical or emotional or whatever.

        1. PhyllisB*

          Well, I agree with all of you who are saying it’s not the office’s place to get involved in medical issues; but I just thought maybe if someone close to him could kindly confront him it might help. No, I would never ask a woman if she was PMSing or anything like that, but if a close friend of mine was acting this way I would hope I could mention that something was going on and they might want to look into it. (Maybe not in an office, though. I do see y’all’s point on that.) I only mentioned it because this is new territory for him. However, that doesn’t give him license to be a scumbag and I hope there is a solution. And please give us an update when you have one.

          1. CooKoo*

            Literally no one can “kindly confront” him about hormones without it being painted as a “hostile workplace” when he decides to sue his employer.

      7. Lilysparrow*

        If Oscar wrote in to ask, “I’ve been having trouble dealing with normal criticism at work. Everything seems like a personal slight, even when logically I know it couldn’t be. Last week I flounced out of a meeting! I’m so embarrassed, but I can’t seem to get a handle on it.”

        Then it would be appropriate to offer speculation about health issues causing mood swings.

        OP should not offer any kind of health advice to a colleague who hasn’t asked for it.

    6. Psyche*

      I think you need to talk to your manager (and possibly Oscar’s manager) about it, preferably as a group. Leave out the changing backstory since that is not particularly relevant to job performance. Focus on how it is impossible to work with someone who will leave the room if you disagree about something, emails everyone if he can’t find a file and DELETES other people’s work.

    7. Bananatiel*

      Before I read anything about Oscar transitioning my eye went to “He exaggerates his accomplishments, his experience, his entire back story” which is why I dove into the story. Every person I’ve ever worked before that had this kind of attitude and penchant for, frankly, lying– it eventually doesn’t end well for them but in my experience, it takes way too long for leadership to realize what’s going on so I’d say to just keep an eye out for opportunities just in case.

      At oldjob our Oscar is still there– he was part of the reason I left and I just found out another person on our team left yesterday because of him, too. How long ago did he get hired? 4 years ago. From what I’ve heard there are finally signs that leadership is not putting up with it anymore but… he’s still there!

    8. bunniferous*

      He is acting like an ass but I am guessing this is coming from a place of deep insecurity. As far as you are concerned, the strategy I would recommend is not taking any of this personally. I had a boss in the past who was a nightmare-he would misunderstand something, not wait for an explanation, and start yelling-literally YELLING at you. A lot of people quit because of him. I needed the job. Once I realized what was really going on (and it helped I had a great relationship with the other owner) I just quit taking it personally. He would literally yell at me that I was fired, I would tell him, I am not going anywhere and you need to quit yelling. Thankfully he was not in the business that much but after we started standing up to him it got better. He too was insecure and displayed it by trying to treat the rest of us as if we were all idiots. I wound up eventually getting along with him just fine. But boy howdy what a journey that was.

      In your case if you can disengage and not take it personally I feel like this problem will probably resolve itself sooner or later.

    9. Librarian of SHIELD*

      This comes down to something that gets said here a lot: Behaving professionally and getting along with your coworkers (at least on a surface, not shouting or flouncing level) is part of the job. It is an essential job duty, like showing up when you’re scheduled to be there. An employee who is not performing an essential job duty needs a talking to, and probably a PIP.

      Everybody has something about their personality that has to be toned down a little at work. I myself am something of a Susie Sunshine, and I know that can be irritating to some people, so I dial it back to a 7 in a professional environment. Same goes for grouchy or jerky tendencies. They may be a person’s go-to reaction, but they’re not good for professional relationships so they need to get dialed back.

    10. Drax*

      Gender seems rather irrelevant to this.

      The consulting thing, I’d leave it. No one wants to admit their personal venture failed and some people cope with it by making themselves feel like it was something else. Annoying yes, but let them have it. I’m sure anyone would be devastated to lose a dream like their own company. I wouldn’t want to admit my venture went so sideways I nearly went bankrupt and lost my home and I don’t think you would either. This is just Annoying Thing About Oscar but I’d leave it.

      But the other stuff like walking away if someone disagrees or jumping the gun, I think you’re going to have the best like actually bringing the transition into it. When he says he has to be his own cheerleader and aggressive assertive because of it you can say “your transition has nothing to do with this. That’s not the issue, the issue is you walking away from people instead of having the conversation / jumping the gun. This has effect X, Y, Z on me/persons”

      I also just noticed you may be reporting to him not him to you, so maybe the best thing would be to hand it off to his manager but approaching it in a gender-less way to that manager. By that I mean just say “when someone disagrees with him he storms off and refuses to talk about it/ with no explanation and that’s problematic because of A, and B”

    11. LGC*

      This is your daily reminder that even minorities can be jerks. I’m so sorry you have to put up with him and his behavior. I’m not trans, but his temper tantrums at work are Not Okay even if he’s going through transition. There’s a line between being assertive and being aggressive, and Oscar is well on the aggressive side of that line.

      So, the question is – do YOU (or the team) have the ear of management? Because he seems like the kind of boss that punches down, so management might not see his abusive behavior. (And…okay, he might not necessarily be an abuser, because that term is weighted and has meaning. But routinely throwing tantrums is an abuse of his position.) They might not know how bad his behavior is (or they might be afraid that he’ll sue if they take corrective action).

      This is a situation where you should probably go to his boss, preferably along with others.

      Other than that, treat him like he’s a curious sitcom character. It’s easy to say from a smartphone screen, but your boss is ridiculous, and I hope everyone can see him for the toddler he is. (I imagine him to be like a two year old that got into her mom’s jewelry box and is having Big Feelings about being caught.)

    12. Some Sort of Management Consultant*

      From what you write this has nothing to do with Oscar’s gender and transition. Just ignore that completely.

      Oscar sounds like a exasperating coworker and a worse boss. It doesn’t sound that it’s set in stone that Oscar will be your new boss, so fingers crossed it doesn’t happen!
      How big is your company? Are there other possible managers and teams?

    13. RR*

      Can you and a group of your fellow concerned colleagues arrange for a meeting with your current supervisor to discuss concerns re work environment? Then focus solely on observable behaviors that impact your ability to work productively such as the refusal to engage in discussions during meetings if someone disagrees with, the rearranging and — much worse — deletion of other’s work, etc. As you correctly note, if someone is routinely disrupting meetings or deleting someone else’s work, it doesn’t matter who they are.

      Sadly, I’d also recommend you have your resume in order and start looking if you are fairly certain about the upcoming restructuring. You don’t have to take another job if you don’t want to, but a job search can be a lengthy process. Looking is not a commitment to accept a new position; it’s checking out one’s options.

      Good luck!

    14. ThisIsNotWhoYouThinkItIs*

      Oscar’s an ass (said before, but I’ll say it again). If you removed all the transition discussion in this question and replaced it with “ongoing health issue” or “ongoing health event”*, he’d sound like an ass (still), full stop. Lying and manipulation (the dramatics) are flags.

      Regardless of personal issues you are still expected to behave professionally and civilly at work. His actions reflect none of that.

      How to deal? If you have a good rapport with the current boss or the committee making the decision I might try a discrete word in someone’s ear to see if the rumor is based in fact. It might be completely false. If it’s not (and you have a REALLY good relationship with someone that is making the decision) talk to them about it. Let them know your concerns. Possibly (if they can be trusted) ask them to ask some other colleagues to get their feel for Oscar. (Don’t use names of specific colleagues.)

      If he’s really someone you can’t work under–start looking. That way if he does get promoted you haven’t lost any time getting out of there. Prep for an internal transfer if it’s possible. They may lock down the transfer option once too many people leave the team and then you’d be stuck leaving the company. :(

      I had an Oscar, but her issue was pain management and older age declines. She was a jerk without the complication of being in pain–and if you are in pain you are still expected to be a civil and professional person. After I got burned I worked with her by not working on anything she was messing with and CYAing everything I was required to work with her on until she left.

      * I couldn’t think of a better word I wanted to use here. If someone knows a preferred word/phrase let me know. Truly asking because I don’t want to denigrate anyone’s journey–it’s tough enough.

      1. Kat in VA*

        I am in pain 24/7. A lifetime of extreme sports and a general addiction to adrenaline have seen to that.

        I’m not an ass. I’m also almost 50 and feeling every tear, break, shatter, and snap. Still not an ass.

    15. Easily Amused*

      Dear Oscar,
      WHO you are is not the same as the things you DO.
      You be YOU while you stop doing the things you DO.

    16. LCL*

      When you call him on something and he brings his transition into it, don’t let him. “Oscar, I didn’t ask you about that, we aren’t and won’t be discussing that as it is not my business. We are discussing you walking out of the room when someone else is talking.”etc

    17. Nesprin*

      Oscar is a bad employee and also transitioning. These two things are unrelated. Treat him as you would any other bad employee- by documenting ongoing problems, raising them with your superior and maintaining a cordial demeanor whenever you have to deal with him. If you cannot maintain a poker face when dealing with him, switch to IM/email (which comes with a bonus of a paper trail!)

      Keep gender out of it, and if he suggests that a reasonable request is offensive due to his life situation, tell him you’re sorry he feels that way and leave it. And for the love of all that is holy do not suggest that he see a doctor to work out hormone things- imagine how that will play out in the eventual wrongful termination suit.

    18. Not So NewReader*

      One of the problems I see is that he brings his transitioning up when ever there is a problem and no one has planned what they will say when this happens.

      Since you can see that this is his response for many situations, you can build a planned answer in anticipation of his response.

      “Oscar you can’t leave meetings in the middle of the meeting.”
      Oscar: “….and that just because I am transitioning….”
      “Oscar everyone here would be told the same thing, NO ONE can leave meetings in the middle of a meeting period. This has nothing to do with transitioning and we need to focus on talking about staying at a meeting until the meeting is concluded. Can you agree that going forward you will now remain in attendance at every meeting until the conclusion of the meeting?”

      1. Fortitude Jones*

        Problem is, OP’s not Oscar’s boss, so she has no standing to say this to him. Management needs to get off their behinds and handle this.

        1. pamela voorhees*

          Absolutely agreed — that message absolutely needs to be said, but it has to be said by a manager, otherwise it carries no weight. They can even say something like “I understand you’re going through a difficult time, and we support you, but you must maintain basic professional norms” if they’re concerned about coming across as insensitive or bigoted. If he was going through a divorce, or had lost a family member, or any other major life event, there would be sympathy but also rule enforcement. They need to deal with it in the same way.

        2. designbot*

          My boss is an Oscar, and I just said pretty much this to him. At the end of my review, when our grandboss had told us that we needed to work extra hard to communicate better, I cut in with, “while the lines of communication are open, can I tell you something? It feels really disrespectful when you leave meetings without saying anything. The rest of us are left not knowing whether you’re coming back, whether you expect us to wait for you, it gets really awkward. Can you at least say whether you’ll be back when you leave?” It went over fine, he’s making an effort. Therapy language really is the key. When you do X, I feel Y, it has Z impact. No blame, no equivocating, just lay it out and even really difficult people often respond pretty well.

          1. Fortitude Jones*

            And that worked because, in functional workplaces, employees can and probably should give feedback like that to their manager. But when you’re peers? The peer probably isn’t going to listen to anything you say.

        3. Not So NewReader*

          Yep, by saying “no one has planned”, I meant management.
          Sometimes we have to talk with bosses and give them the wording they need to get through something. I have no clue how many times I have done this or seen other people do it. When the boss says, “Well, Oscar will say something about transitioning”, then I would point out that “this has nothing to do with transitioning and is simply something that is required of everyone who works here.”

          It can feel awkward to explain obvious things to people so it’s a good to prepare what to say.

    19. The Man, Becky Lynch*

      It’s common for jerks with a complex to fall back on the “oh it’s because I’m XYZ, isn’t it? Yeah it’s always because I’m XYZ!”, they love playing that up and stroking the fires of our fear of being pegged as a bigot or having discrimination in our veins.

      So you have to keep cool about this and understand that’s a manipulation game on their part. The transitioning and the trans issue comes with a lot of difficulties, you still cannot be a raging dbag and just go “This is who I am, you have to accept me because I’m transitioning and have faced discrimination!” Nope, doesn’t work that way, Oscar.

      Complain about their personality, their reactions, their lies and their inability to work as a teammate. Flouncing out of meetings is BS and unacceptable behavior. It’s okay to disagree with, dislike and not be able to work with someone with these issues, it has nothing to do with anything but their personality.

      It sounds like they’ve been working so long alone and struggling that they’re not used to having to work as a group, so they are always in charge and demands it stays the same now that they’re in a company structure. Not acceptable unless they’re made a manager at some point, then it’s completely going to destroy the place since this kind of personality is a horrid manager to ever put into a place of power.

    20. cmcinnyc*

      I managed to negotiate “hazard pay” once when I was forced to work with a really difficult person. It was one of those office re-orgs that are basically take it or leave it, and I couldn’t afford to leave it. I was really upfront with HR, and direct, but respectful. Hellish Coworker has a habit of sabotaging others and I knew she’d do it to me. I had no leverage to insist on a raise (I had, in fact, just gotten a raise right before the change happened), but I asked anyway. I specifically tied the ask to working with Hellish, and noted that she’d be undermining me in no time flat. HR had no reaction to that statement, but I got the raise! So, I know what you really want is to not work with Oscar at all. But if it comes down to take it or leave it, and you want to stay, you could simply ask for more money. It sucked working with Hellish but I would remind myself about my newly fat paycheck and get on with it.

    21. NW Mossy*

      The main point I take from you is that you are not Oscar’s boss, and therefore, it’s not explicitly your job responsibility to coach him on how to behave professionally without your workplace. It’s not on you to fix this, much as it disrupts you right now. Your role is different – you and your peers are the ones that can provide the first-hand observations of his behavior and articulate the impact on the work.

      What you can do, though, is start the conversation with your own boss about how this is impacting your ability to work effectively. You can absolutely discuss Oscar’s behavior in a professional way that only acknowledges his transition to the extent that it’s directly relevant. In the examples you gave, you wouldn’t mention it when discussing how his meeting walk-outs make the meetings less productive, but you certainly can when relaying his defensive reaction to requests to modify how he works with colleagues because you’re providing the context that he gave for his actions.

      The way you phrased the last few sentences in your second-to-last paragraph is spot-on, and what I’d suggest taking to your boss. I particularly found “walking on eggshells” powerful, because it gets straight to the real issue: Oscar has crappy professional relationships with his colleagues, and it makes his colleagues view him as someone to mistrust and fear, not someone to collaborate with effectively. I sincerely hope that both your boss and Oscar’s can see that when you’ve got one person determined to go scorched-earth on everyone they work with, it deeply damages everyone’s ability to get stuff done, not just Oscar’s. Eliminating this behavior (either through Oscar dramatically improving or removing him from the organization) is going to be essential to not sink the larger ship.

    22. I don't want to have to leave*

      I want to thank everyone who responded. I think I was starting to feel very beaten down by what’s happening, and it was good to share it. I will keep trying to get senior management to intervene, but one of the challenges is that there’s a bit of a vacuum in senior management right now.

      1. LGC*

        That’s…interesting. So you have two problems, really – Oscar is out of control, and it sounds like you think no one is there to control Oscar. I actually would advise looking – not only for the possibility that you’re stuck with Oscar and his wild behavior, but also because it looks like management is a bit shambolic in general.

        But also, I re-read your post, and you’re really minimizing one key detail:

        My company recently hired Oscar

        He’s the new guy! It doesn’t matter whether he has bRiLLiAnT iDeAs or what his gender identity is. He’s a relatively recent hire, and may still be on probation (you didn’t say how recently he was hired). And he’s still acting like a toddler.

        Actually, no, that’s an unfair assessment. I’ve known a few toddlers and you can generally get them to calm down and shut up if you play Frozen or Cars or something.

        But anyway, reading it over, it seems like you’re convinced that just because Oscar talks sweetly to senior management he’s untouchable, and that’s far from the case. (Or hopefully, it should be far from the case.) I think that you have a decent chance of agreement if you go to senior management and tell them he’s a jerk.

    23. Llellayena*

      “Oscar, part of your job is to be professional in your interactions with coworkers. This means not walking out of meetings when you disagree, not deleting or reorganizing files without asking first, (add other examples as needed).”
      “But I’m transitioning and need to assert myself.”
      “This has nothing to do with whether you are transitioning or not, we require this professionalism from every employee and it is an issue that may impact your employment here.”

      And document this conversation (record it if you’re permitted). Summarize this in a print-out or email and save it so if you do need to fire him and he brings up discrimination, you can point to that conversation. OY.

    24. Observer*

      Ignore the fact that he’s transitioning. It’s not relevant, it’s it’s just stinky that he’s trying to pretend that it is.

      When someone brings up issue X (Please ask about documents before assuming a process is not being followed; please don’t interrupt the speaker) and he start blathering about “not apologizing for who he is” the response ALWAYS is “This is not about your gender or who you are. This is about your behavior X”. And stick to it. “This is about this specific behavior.” Lather, rinse repeat. On an infinite loop.

      If your leadership is smart they will begin to see the problem.

  15. Writing Samples*

    Asking for a friend who just graduated from college. She is applying to entry-level positions and paid internships which sometimes require writing samples as part of the application. These are policy analysis jobs located mostly in Washington DC.

    What kind(s) of samples should she submit? And how long should they be? Thanks in advance for any advice/insight/perspective!

    1. I don't want to have to leave*

      Personally, I think one to two pages is enough for a writing sample. For that reason, if all she’s got is college papers, I’d distill the best of them down to two pages. If she has other writing samples (club newsletters, the school newspaper) she could use those as well.

      1. Writing Samples*

        That’s a great idea! She was a Poly Sci major so I think she has plenty of papers she can choose from and condense.

    2. Holly*

      Hopefully she wrote papers in college or a prior internship that show her analytical skills. Usually job postings specify the length of the writing sample required – over ten pages is way too much unless otherwise specified.

      1. Writing Samples*

        Unfortunately, the job posts she’s seen so far don’t indicate the length. I completely agree over ten pages would be overkill. About 2 pages seems right, as ‘I don’t want to have to leave’ wrote.

        1. Holly*

          I wouldn’t purposely cut, say a 5-8 page paper down to 2 pages, though. It needs to show her full analysis of an issue. I would put a cover page that contains a brief one paragraph synopsis to assist the reader.

    3. Lady Jay*

      I’d ask the employers/hiring people, honestly. A college paper demonstrates how to write . . . wait for it . . . a college paper, and they may want to see her ability to work in other genres, such as a report on a particular policy move or a brief analysis of XYZ. It would not be amiss to politely email the hiring people and say, “Do you have any guidance on what you prefer that I submit for the writing sample?”

      1. Lady Jay*

        Also, please do NOT distill a college paper down to 1-2 pages. While Don’t Want to Leave is right that you don’t want to submit a super long writing sample, the paper becomes something else altogether if you reduce 15-20 pages to 1-2: either it becomes a new genre (an abstract, say), or it becomes a really bad paper. A good 20 page paper cannot be a good 1-2 page paper.

        2. I don't want to have to leave*

          If it has an executive summary, you can distill it. I used the two-page executive summary of my senior thesis as a writing sample when I graduated.

          1. Lady Jay*

            Sure.

            The point is, it’s not a paper any more, it’s an “executive summary”–or put another way, an “abstract,” as I said. That could be fine, but it depends on 1) employer expectations, which is why I suggested reaching out to the hiring people, and 2) the writer’s awareness that she is writing in the genre of “executive summary” and not “2 page paper”. Knowing what genre(s) you’re working in is everything.

            1. UK Civil Servant*

              An *good* 2 page Executive Summary of a longer more detailed paper is exactly the type of writing that will go down well in a policy analysis job application. *If she can nail it.*
              It is the hardest thing to write one well (with impact while retaining nuance) and I know 20+ year veterans of this type of job who struggle with it.

        1. New ED*

          There is no harm in asking, but I’ll be honest that my organizing would be unlikely to respond. We get lots of applications for internships and we don’t have dedicated HR because it’s a small organizing. For an entry level internship I honestly don’t care about the length, I’m just going to skim it quickly to get a basic sense of writing ability. For a high level position it would be quite different.

      3. Holly*

        If this is an entry level internship geared towards college students they likely would expect a college paper and not a policy report necessarily. Just my two cents, it depends on what kind of experience they are looking for and the prestige of the internship/position.

    4. Alexis Rose*

      A briefing note. 2 pages max, it highlights an issue. You want to follow the “What? So what? Now what?” format. What is the issue, why do we care (what are the implications), and what are some recommendations or options for addressing the issue (addressing doesn’t necessarily mean “solve” it could also mean lessen the effect of a negative thing).

      Source: i am a policy analyst with the Canadian government.

    5. MissDisplaced*

      Shorter pieces. Not term papers. It could be an academic paper, but only if the job actually involved research.
      This could come from a number of areas, even if it was college.

      Website copy
      Newsletter or Newspaper stories
      Social media posts (if done for internships or the college)
      Press releases
      Blog or Article posts (for the school or volunteer agency)
      Advertising copywriting for brochures, onsheets, etc.

      Academic papers (but only if the job is in research or academia or policy where it’s more accepted)
      I wouldn’t generally go for this–but I have been asked for them on occasion.

      Hopefully, she had a communications class where she wrote “sample” items like this. I know I did as part of my master’s degree. In fact we had to create a whole portfolio of writing samples showing a range of business communications. It need not be “real” or published items to do this and show your ability.

    6. Hello!*

      I am in a very similar field. What I have done in the past (also a Poli Sci major) is have a condensed version and then have an online portfolio with the unabridged version of my research papers as well that I did while I was in school. I also worked in a legislative office so any correspondence with constituents that went above and beyond (i.e. explaining the intricacies of a particular bill or government program where I needed to “dumb down”(I don’t have a better word for it so please no one be mean to me) the policy for the average reader).

      Good luck to your friend!

    7. KayDay*

      When I was looking for entry level jobs I had 2 writing samples I used (depending on what was asked for or the nature of the job). The first was the closest thing I had to a 2-page brief, in whole, and I included an brief (2 sentence) explanation of the assignment for context. The second was a sample from a long research paper– not distilling it down into a new, shorter paper, but instead selecting a couple of really good sections, with the aim of demonstrating my research skills. For example, I kept the intro, conclusion and one of the main sections, but deleted the rest with a short explanation.

      1. AdhdAnon*

        If she has a sample that seems like something she might write at that job use it.
        Otherwise 2-10 pages of a paper. (Sole authorship, not a group project.)

        I will say this – don’t submit a paper that has only been seen by a professor, even if you got a good grade. Sometimes they grade on content, not organization or writing. If I’m asking for a writing sample it’s because I need to know if they can write well.

        Tangent- once had a candidate bring an unsolicited writing sample to an interview. The paper, written for a class, was not good. I can’t remember the topic, but I do remember the poor organization, grammar and ‘damn’ instead of ‘dam’. They did not move on to the next round.

  16. Ella Vader*

    Is there a polite way to tell a coworker to stop smacking/slurping. It’s driving me nuts to listen to it all day long. I can’t use headphones or earplugs, and I’m not sure how to bring it up since coworker has been here longer.

    1. Emmie*

      I’m sure you’re looking for language suggestions, which I don’t have right now. In case you needed to hear it, the most polite way is to tell her soon, and not wait until you get more upset about it because your irritation may come across in your message.

    2. londonedit*

      It could be a situation that merits one of Alison’s ‘Hey, there’s this weird thing about me…’ approaches. The technical term for being excessively bothered by sounds like this is misophonia, so you could use that if you wanted it to sound ‘official’, but otherwise maybe something like ‘Hey, I just wanted to let you know that I have this weird thing where I’m really bothered by people making sounds near me when they’re eating. I know, it’s a pain, but would you mind trying to be super quiet when you’re eating and drinking at your desk?’ Frame it as a thing that you know is weird, but would they mind trying to accommodate it.

    4. Not Me*

      Can you kinda joke about it? Something like “What on earth are you eating?? I can hear it all the way over here!!” with a genuine smile and small laugh? Obviously, the smile is the most important part.

      1. Spongebob WorkPants*

        Seriously? Way to make someone feel self-conscious and singled out for going about their daily business. This is OP’s problem, not the coworker’s.

        1. Lauren*

          Spongebob, for most people, slurping/smacking noises are considered rude. Perhaps you come from a culture where they aren’t (such as in some Asian countries where burping is considered a compliment to the cook), but in mainstream American culture, it’s considered rude.

        2. Not Me*

          It’s both of their problems. It’s the OPs problem because it’s impacting their ability to focus and do their job and it’s the co-workers problem because their actions are impacting the ability of those around them to focus and do their job.

          It’s a workplace, not a restaurant. Slurping and smacking noises aren’t an expected part of the acoustics.

    5. gecko*

      Maybe, “I have a weird thing about eating and drinking sounds. I don’t want to make you self-conscious, but would it be possible to eat/drink less at your desk?”

      If you can you wear headphones that’s great. I had a problem with a cube neighbor making horrible throat-clearing noises and I couldn’t always wear my headphones–just mentioning the problem to him helped me, personally, even though to be honest he didn’t make much change.

    6. Iris Eyes*

      #1 you have to train you brain to ignore/dismiss it as much as possible. Humans are weird noisy creatures.

      #2 Seniority really shouldn’t factor into it. The current situation is that you are sitting together.

      #3 Combine “weird thing about me” with suggestions that you think might work. Could you put in a white noise machine or ask for the ambient white noise to be turned up (from my impressions most office buildings would probably have that)? I have a tiny desk humidifier that provides both much needed moisture and some background noise. If the noise is still an issue maybe you could negotiate for time periods when there is no eating slurping?

    7. Llama Wrangler*

      In addition to what everyone said above about how to address it, I’ve found that if someone is smacking/slurping sounds and I can’t do anything about it, I feel much, much better if I start eating or drinking something myself. Even just a mint or tea will trick my brain into silence on this.

    8. Close Bracket*

      Lay the awkward on the table since you know it’s there:

      “Coworker, this is a little bit awkward [or maybe sensitive is a better word], but did you realize that you are noisy when you eat? Eating noises are really distracting to me, do you think you could work on being a little quieter when you eat?”

      I feel like you need to throw in specifics rather than “be a little quieter when you eat”, but I’m having trouble with wording that. I don’t think a point by point list of their noises would endear you to them.

      In case they take it badly and complain about you to a supervisor, maybe have a preemptive conversation with your boss. “Boss, I’ve noticed Lindsey slurps a lot when they eat. Have you noticed this? I asked them to be quieter bc it’s so distracting to me, but I’m afraid I may have upset them or offended them! I’m just letting you know in case I ended up causing a problem. That certainly isn’t my intent.”

    9. Auntie Social*

      It’s odd but if the eater can’t see you, he thinks you can’t hear him. Sort of the “I’m in my car with my window rolled up so other people can’t hear me”. You can try “Bob, are you enjoying that apple?” or just a simple “Can you eat quietly? It’s very distracting.” I sat by a guy who sounded like a Great Dane—my sympathies.

    10. Lilysparrow*

      Hey Bob, this is a bit awkward, but the sound of your eating and drinking carries right into my cube. It’s surprisingly loud – maybe the acoustics in here are strange?

      I hate to say it, but it’s really distracting. Could you please try to keep it down, or maybe eat at your desk less frequently?

      I’d really appreciate it.

  17. Contract question?*

    I’m doing some contracted work for a side gig. We agreed informally on the terms (payment, deadline, etc) at the end of April/beginning of May and I was told a contract was forthcoming. It hasn’t come yet. Should I check on this? The project is due relatively shortly, and I anticipate spending 30-40 hours more on this before I turn it in.

    (For what it’s worth, I’ve contracted with this group before, & everything worked out just fine. I also learned of the gig/group through a network I trust.)

    I’ve written a short script of my own up, to ask about this, but suggestions are also welcomed!! (I don’t want to actually include the script here, as that would be identifying.)

    1. Easily Amused*

      Do not start any work without a contract in place. Even though it’s worked out in the past, you need to protect yourself legally.

      1. valentine*

        Stop work and send them your own contract. Perhaps they will respond with theirs. Is it possible they think you’ve not started because you’re waiting on the contract?

    2. IL JimP*

      I would definitely check in, because I wouldn’t do any work until I had the contract in hand. You never know they could have decided to cancel it or have someone else do it or even have it done in house.

      I would call though and follow up with an email if you get a VM

    3. LunaLena*

      I agree with Easily Amused, don’t do anything until a contract is in place. If the deadline is coming up and you’re concerned about the timeline, I’d contact them and say something like “Just checking on where we are at with the contract. As far as I know, the project is due on X, and I estimate that it will require at least 30-40 hours of work, so it would help to know so I can plan ahead and make this happen on time.” If they respond with “it’s coming, why don’t you just get started, you know you can trust us, etc” I would respond with “I’m sorry, but I cannot start without a contract. It is my standard policy and ensures that we’re all on the same page, so it protects you as much as me.”

  18. Totally Not Interested*

    This week my boss handed me a resume to set up a screening call for him. I glanced over the resume and, at the bottom, the candidate had listed his interests: soccer, surfing, video games, and Reddit.

    I cringed so hard, I think I strained something in my neck. It took everything in me not to add a PS to my reach out email that said ‘Dude, remove your interests ASAP! They are not relevant!’ Obviously, my boss is impressed enough to still reach out but that one line… ugh!

    1. Ms. Taylor Sailor*

      Wow. The list of interests is cringing enough on its own, but Reddit?!

      I’ll assume this is not a social media job, but that’s literally the only circumstance in which I could at least fathom why he thought this was a good idea. I also wonder if he’s a moderator on there and he’s thinking of it in terms of an accomplishment (which is still not worth putting on a resume), but if no, he’s just someone who goes on Reddit a lot, then that’s mind-blowing.

    2. hbc*

      I love a short interest section, especially when it adds unexpected breadth to a person who might look a bit narrow in their resume and accomplishments. Heck, I’ve been given a job offer for a supervisor position because the hiring manager interpreted that my being a referee meant I could take a lot of people being angry with me.

      But geez, this guy. Might as well read “Hire me if you’re low on Dude Bros,” and no one ever has fewer of those than they need.

    3. Maya Elena*

      They might not be particularly relevant or interesting, but they’re also so vanilla, and such a small part of the resume, I’d let it go. Since every resume will have imperfections – objective statement, missing comma, what-have-you, “Dear Sir or Madam” in the cover letter…. It seems reasonable to let these go.
      (Now if he had put anything like “BDSM, cannabis farming, anarcho-communism, and Flat Earth society” – that is definitely more interesting.)

      1. Ra94*

        Now I’m curious- how would you start a cover letter to someone whose name you don’t know? I always thought Dear Sir/Madam was the convention.

        1. NaoNao*

          “To Whom it may concern” is the traditional opener for someone whose name you don’t know in business situations :)

        2. Darren*

          Addressing it to the Hiring Manager would be the preference (by that title if you don’t know the name). In lieu of that you could just address it to the company.

          To Whom It May Concern also used to be popular but I think that’s fallen as out of fashion as Dear Sir or Madam.

    4. pamela voorhees*

      Well, if his goal was to make an impression, he sure did. Let him leave them in. Listing “Reddit” as an interest speaks volumes about a candidate.

  19. No Tribble At All*

    Acronym nonsense for the week: I’m an engineer, and we have about seven thousand acronyms. Someone emailed me to check “all the ODD” widgets. Spent a few minutes trying to figure out what O.D.D. stood for before I realized “odd-numbered”.

    1. Seeking Second Childhood*

      I hear ya on that one! We are also acronym-heavy, and our newest employee asked us to set up a list because English isn’t their first language so figuring out “product name” vs “common acronym” can be aggravating.

    2. Mr. Tyzik*

      Ya down with O.D.D?
      Yeah you know me!
      Ya down with O.D.D.?
      Yeah you know me!
      Who’s down with O.D.D.?
      Every last homie!

      2. Blue Bunny*

        My brain chants this every time someone at my company references VPP (the OSHA Voluntary Protection Program).

    3. Bananatiel*

      The company I work for uses so many acronyms that they’re starting to get nested within each other. Makes total sense! ha!

    4. WellRed*

      All the drug commercials on TV now seem to acronymize conditions: it’s not metastatic breast cancer, it’s MBC. And Weight Watcher is now WW. Which makes no sense and frankly, takes longer to say. Sigh.

      1. valentine*

        My Two Dads had a character famous for turning magazines around by changing their names to acronyms. Her streak ended when she went to Financial Update.

    5. Clever Name*

      Heh, I’m a biologist and I’m working on a project where they will be impacting habitat for a mouse listed as “threatened” by US Fish and Wildlife. We have to compensate for destroying habitat by creating/improving habitat somewhere else, and one idea for doing this is basically making fake beaver dams. The project is calling them Beaver Analogue Dams, or BAD for short. So I’m reading emails with sentences like, “Cindy is presenting the approach to Tammy, and I think Tammy will like the BAD idea” and “this will be at the BAD location”. LOL

      1. La Marni*

        LOL indeed! Are you excited to work on this BAD project? And add it to your accomplishments?

        Future cover letter: “I am moving on from this BAD job because….”

    6. Gumby*

      We not only have acronyms & initialisms endemic to the field, but all of our individual project names are also acronyms. Though, frankly, I am frequently unclear on what the full name of those are. “The TeaPOT project? Teleportation and…something something Transportation.” (not a real project name) (at my job)

  20. Wendie*

    I am looking for a pair of work shoes that will help with some toe pain I’m having. Office is not formal but I like to look polished and “classic”. Trying not to break the bank but i like to go by cost per wear too. Any tips ladies?

    1. merp*

      Unsure if these would help the pain you’re having, and they’re not cheap, but I just got rothy’s and they are incredible. Super comfortable, professional, washable, waterproof, recycled, etc, etc. I love them.

      1. A Simple Narwhal*

        I’ve thought about getting Rothy’s or Tieks, but they’re just so expensive! Are they really worth the price tag?

        1. knitter*

          I LOVE my Rothy’s. They are not perfect, but as a working mom, the ability to throw my shoes in the washing machine is invaluable (they’ve been vomited on and I can still wear them!). Very comfortable and since they are woven, I feel like they adjust a bit to foot shape.
          IF you do buy a pair, check the reviews regarding fit. Often people need to go up at least a half size.

        2. Blue Bunny*

          I have Rothys and like them. Go up a full size if you have anything other than a narrow foot. I wear a 9 extra wide, and a 10 fits me comfortably because the knit material stretches nicely. That will also leave space for insoles tailored to your needs.

          Go to the comments section at Corporette for a $20 off coupon code. People post them there often. I’d link mine, but it shows your real name.

        3. merp*

          I’m a big fan. First pair of flats I’ve ever had that didn’t require a breaking in period to be comfortable, and they feel durable, so even though they were expensive, I think they will last.

        4. Fortitude Jones*

          I have three pairs of the classic Tieks, and yes, they are worth every penny to me. They’re made specifically so you can fold and unfold them (which makes them perfect for travel), they’re 100% Italian leather, so they’re very well-crafted (no insoles coming unstuck, which happens in a lot of my flats), and they have the blue soles at the ball of the foot and the heel so you don’t feel like you’re walking on the ground. I dig them.

          1. Fortitude Jones*

            Oh – and they’re true to size and have free shipping and returns in the US.

          2. iglwif*

            Those look so nice! I wish I could wear ballet flats–every pair I’ve ever tried on has hit my feet in exactly the right spot to cause pain across my big toe joint :/

            1. Fortitude Jones*

              I’ve had that happen to, but two of the three pair I have didn’t do it at all! (Don’t know what was going on with that third pair, but it quickly stopped after two wears.)

        5. Tedious Cat*

          Cost per wear-wise, Rothys are totally worth it for me because I have really sweaty feet and being able to wash my flats is a game-changer. I also get tons of compliments on them. Just make sure you go up at least a half-size if you get the Point.

        6. Anonymousaurus Rex*

          Another vote for Rothy’s here. They’re expensive, but I think worth it. I bought them thinking I just wanted to try them on to see if they were as comfortable as everyone says and I’d return them…I didn’t return them. I now have two pair and am just about to buy a 3rd. They’re really comfortable and give the right polished look, I think.

        7. CDM*

          I normally wear a 9 1/2 and bought a 10 in both Rothy’s ballet flats and Tieks. Love the Rothy’s, and now have three pairs. My feet do sweat in them slightly, but I rotate pairs and wash one pair every week or so. (I just throw them in with a regular load of laundry and then air dry).

          The first pair of Rothys were a 9 1/2, and I wear them without discomfort, but they are slightly snugger than I like. That knit makes the fit pretty forgiving.

          My daughter and I both packed them for our last vacation and wore them for full days of sightseeing and walking.

          The Tieks aren’t as comfortable for me. I might need to go up another half size. But they just haven’t broken in enough to not bother me across the tops of my toes after ten or so wearings. I wear them rarely and mainly for short stretches.

      2. Luna*

        Re Rothy’s: Are they pretty supportive? I recently had ankle surgery and find myself needing something that is more supportive than traditional flats.

      2. anonymous penguin*

        I have those in the plain (no cutouts) style. I’ve been wearing them for about 3 weeks. So far very comfortable: no rubbing on the back of my heel and enough sole that I don’t feel every pebble outside. I’m thinking about adding sock liners because my feet get a little sweaty in the heat.

        1. Fortitude Jones*

          Yes! I forgot to mention that as a bonus to the Tieks mentioned above – they don’t run across the back of your foot (and every new pair of shoes I buy regardless of material does this). I’ll have to check these out as well.

    3. Emily S.*

      I have serious foot issues, and have found the best shoes from a company called SAS, San Antonio Shoes. They are pricey since they’re made in the US, but they have been life-changing for me. Check them out.

      1. Cedrus Libani*

        My dad’s family has been Team SAS for decades. They’re high quality, have classic styling, and are great if you like a more supportive shoe. We’re also clown-footed people who need to have our shoes custom made, and they will do that for us without complaint.

        I’ve found that I prefer a minimalist, barefoot-style shoe, so I’ve been wearing Softstar Shoes. In a conservative color, they really are suitable for business casual wear. They don’t draw attention to themselves, which is what I wanted, and isn’t easy to find in this type of shoe. They aren’t cheap, but they hold up well.

    4. philosophical_conversation*

      I have to second SAS. They’re expensive, but are the most comfortable shoes I’ve ever worn and they last forever.

      1. BunnyWatsonToo*

        I third SAS. I stand a lot in my job and SAS are the only shoes I can wear comfortably. I believe that you can finally order them online directly from the company.

        1. Seven hobbits are highly effective, people*

          I am also on Team SAS for comfortable, foot-friendly work shoes. They were my go-to brand for office-appropriate shoes that would fit my wide feet and complicated orthotics when I held jobs where I needed to wear office-type shoes.

    5. Willow*

      I had plantar fascitiis for years and now have a few go-to brands for shoes: Earth, Keen, Taos, Vionic. None are cheap, but they all provide the support I need.

    6. Deryn*

      My comfiest work shoes are the Lucky Brand Emmie ballet flats! I’ve currently got three different colors (black, navy, and nude) so I wear one pair or another almost every day. I’m not sure how they would be for toe pain specifically, but they’ve got a soft, almost memory foam-esque insole. Also, I just did a quick Google and it appears Macy’s has them on sale “Deal of the Day” today – $41.30!

    7. The Rain In Spain*

      I really really like goldcup sperry’s if the style works for you. They are definitely not super formal, but they are SO comfortable. I find them more affordably priced at a nearby outlet from time to time. I also find Cole Haan loafers to be quite comfortable. Both hold up very well. I used to wear keens all the time, but I think the sperry and cole haan shoes are a bit more attractive. Also, depending on whether you like the looks, many of the skechers shoes are comfy and I often use those when traveling.

      Glad merp said the rothys are good! I’ve been thinking about taking the plunge and trying them even though they are even more expensive than the ones I currently love! Also thinking of trying allbird but will only try one expensive shoe at a time.

    8. shoes*

      Ooh, I have so many foot issues that I can relate to this one. I’m not sure what is causing your toe pain, so these brands might not be appropriate, but I love Naot (especially their Dorith sandal and their Kirei mary jane.
      I also own a lot of Clark’s, and I have heard great things about Taos.

    9. Seeking Second Childhood*

      Have you been wearing soft-soled or hard-soled shoes? It was counterintuitive to me, but a friend whose part-time retirement job put him on his feet for hours at a time quickly developed foot pain — and his co-workers insisted he try hard-soled shoes. For him it worked – he’s speculating it’s because his foot doesn’t flex around the shoe, I’m wondering if it’s that soft soles wear out before the shoe’s upper is visibly older.

    10. Lily Rowan*

      I feel like feet are so personal! A lot of the brands people say are comfortable don’t work at all for me, but Clarks are usually great.

    11. Harriet Vane*

      I have had great luck with Clark’s! A lot of cheaper shoes make my toes hurt and I haven’t had that problem with Clark’s. They last a good long while, too.

    12. Mockingjay*

      I wear Coach leather loafers. I get them at TJ Maxx or Marshalls. Lots of colors as well as basic black, browns, and taupes. I wear with slacks, jeans, skirts, and dresses. I’ve bought them over time. They run about $60, but the leather polishes beautifully.

    13. Jadelyn*

      I’m a fan of Skechers – they’re not like, Payless-cheap, but they’re not super expensive either. Usually somewhere around $50-80 depending on the style. They have some simple, classic flats, and they’re very comfy for walking, for me anyway.

      1. Smiling*

        Ditto on the Skechers, but make sure you get the ones with the goga mat technology. The ones with just memory foam are better than average, but the goga mat stuff has such wonderful padding that I could almost say the shoes make me happy. Macy’s has some gowalk evolution on sale for about $40 online this week.

    14. Kay*

      I have the Eastland “Sadie” Saddle Shoes in both brown and black, and they have a generous layer of memory foam on the inside. I wore them daily to an office gig in NYC (so lots of walking) and they were always so comfortable! The exterior is also flexible enough that after a few wears it starts to conform to your foot for extra comfort.

    16. Drax*

      Crocs.

      Seriously, they are amaaaaaaazing. They do not just do clogs. I have a pair of flats and some cute open toe sandals from there and they are heaven on my feet.

      Also Adidas Cloud Foam shoes. I have very high arches and narrow feet so I struggle with shoes but man they are godly. Just make sure they are the cushy ones, should sink around your finger when poked.

      1. Drax*

        Oh an old lady shoes. There are some cute flats and full shoes that are for the ‘stylish mature woman’ and they are just comfy to the max but tend to be ~$100 CAD

      2. L.S. Cooper*

        Crocs also has some booties that everyone at my office owns, and I’m extremely tempted by. High-ish wedge with a (fake?) suede upper– you’d never know if you were guessing.

    17. Eleanor Shellstrop*

      I was pleasantly surprised by a pair of lace up brogues from the brand Aukusor, on Amazon. They offer wide sizes and seem to have a good amount of room for toe comfort, might be worth a try – I think they were around $40.

    18. Policy Wonk*

      Nurse Mates if you need to be on your feet a lot, otherwise recommend you look on line at FootSmart. They have some decent styles. Ordering on line gives you a wider variety of sizes and widths, too.

    19. iglwif*

      For work-appropriate shoes I’ve had very good luck with Clarks and Naot, and reasonably good luck with Rockport and Bare Traps. For reference, my feet are in the 6.5-7-7.5 US range (but I’ve always worn size 35 Birks, so who knows) and roughly triangular in shape, relatively narrow heels and wide toes. I get toe pain when I wear shoes with high heels and/or pointy toes and/or stiff soles, but YMMV!

      I have learned never, ever to take shoe recs from people who routinely wear heels, because they will say “oh these shoes are so comfortable!” and it turns out they mean “more comfortable than the shoes with pointy-ass toes and 4″ pointy heels that I normally wear”. And like … wear heels if you want to! But not everybody wants to.

      I’m always attracted to ballet flats and then try them on and find that they hurt my feet in a very specific place (the lack of heel is lovely, but the edge of the upper hits the top of my foot right where the big toe joint is, I guess? and the result is OUCH). If there were ever a situation where I actually needed to produce the appearance of ballet flats, I think I would go round to the dance wear store my kid shops at and buy a pair of black ballet slippers XD

        1. Leah*

          I’m just writing down the names of all these brands! I need some comfy flats for work like I need breathing tbh, especially after I found out I have flat foot and need a special insole on my shoes

    20. Hello!*

      Definitely agree on the Rothys, although I did get little half-size insoles since they were completely flat. But I have never had a pair of shoes that didn’t rub my heels. They felt like they were pre-broken in.

    21. The Other Dawn*

      I love Rockport’s Cobb Hill Paulette. They’re more expensive–around $100 US–but they’re worth it. They’re extremely light weight and so, so comfortable. I’m a size 12 Women’s and sometimes a wide width, sometimes not, and these fit perfectly. I have one in black and one in brown. They’re not super pretty, but the comfort is why I bought them. They go well with pants.

  21. merp*

    Last day at this job! New job starts Monday. Wish I could add firework emojis or something here. Finally got that librarian title!

    That being said, the work day is barely started and all I really have left to do is clean my desk. It’s been a very efficient transition week. Soooooo I hope you all have some good stories in this thread today to keep me busy!

    3. FuzzFrogs*

      I’m so happy for you!!!! Fireworks abound!!!!!

      Can you beam some of your luck my way? I’m on that interviewing grind for becoming a librarian–hoping the latest opening is The One, because it’s for my own supervisor and I’m literally Doing it Anyway.

  22. Murphy*

    Curious to get your opinions on this thread I saw on reddit (link in follow-up comment).

    Summary: Company has one single person bathroom. There was a poo smell that supposedly resulted from someone not turning the fan on when they went. The manager made an announcement to all employees telling them to turn the fan on/use air freshener when they poop. Nothing happened, so she then went in the bathroom after each employee used it to figure out who it was leaving the smell and not using the fan. She emailed the employee with no response and then spoke to the employee directly to no avail. Then she asked reddit if she would be the a-hole for firing their employee. Apparently other employees who sat near the bathroom complained about the smell also.

    I’m personally pretty horrified by her checking the bathroom after every use.

    3. Ms. Taylor Sailor*

      I’m curious though how the confrontations turned out. Did the employee just ignore her? Give a reason why they weren’t using the fan? Say they would and just never did? The manager is off the wall for going to these lengths to find the employee and is an a-hole for wanting to fire them over this regardless, but I’m curious how the employee responded. Even though this manager went about it terribly, I would probably be mortified enough to just start using it (though I wouldn’t blame anyone for wanting to spite her at this point either).

      1. Murphy*

        I think she said the employee got upset when she confronted her directly. Employee said she would use fan, but didn’t.

    4. Psyche*

      Why can’t anyone else spray air freshener? Or get one of those plug in ones that sprays automatically? It seems like that would be the easiest solution. I mean, the employee is a jerk for refusing to spray it themselves, but it doesn’t seem like they should be fired over it.

      1. Mockingjay*

        Some air fresheners are toxic. In a small bathroom, a couple of sprays can leave a fog. The fragrance is overwhelming and you breathe in particles, as well as getting itchy eyes.

        Regardless of whether they spray, the employee should have the courtesy to run the fan. No excuse for not doing that.

        1. Pay no attention to the man behind the curtain*

          I’m going to guess that the reason for not running the fan is that it’s a clue that she’s poopin’ in there right now! to anyone who can hear the fan turn on, and she wants to be able to poop and leave without anyone knowing it was her. People are so weird about having to poop.

    5. Not Me*

      I’ve dealt with issues like this. If the employee doesn’t comply with standard office etiquette and it’s impacting others (like those sitting near the bathroom) that’s definitely something I’d terminate someone for. I’d be curious to know what she said to the person and what their response was. Just from the summary you posted the issue (to me) is the lack of complying with a direct and reasonable request from the manager.

      My most recent situation of bathroom issues, the guy stopped the strange and disruptive bathroom behavior, but had he continued it definitely could’ve gotten to the point of termination.

      1. MissDisplaced*

        Like to hear you explain that one to the EEOC. You can’t fire someone for stinking up a bathroom in the normal way. People need to poop. It stinks. Fan or no fan. Spray or no spray. Go figure.

        And while it sucks for those who sit near the ONE bathroom… HELLO move their damn seating!!!!!! Like, I’m so sure they want to sit by the toilet.

        1. Not Me*

          The EEOC has no jurisdiction over someone “stinking up a bathroom in the normal way”. Regardless of that, you definitely can terminate someone for refusing to follow a reasonable request and in doing so negatively impacting the workplace. Which is what this employee is doing.

          Also, not everyone can just pick up and move their work space.

          1. Engineer Girl*

            This is a performance issue. If the employee had a medical condition that would be different. But they haven’t disclosed. So yes, the employer can fire the employee for failure to follow a direct order.

        2. Close Bracket*

          Non-fan users are not a protected class. You *can* fire someone for not using a fan if fan use is required of everyone.

        3. Parenthetically*

          An employee refuses to follow direct and specific instructions? Absolutely it can be a fireable offense.

    6. Long Time Fed*

      If you’re running into the bathroom after the fact, how do you know she wasn’t running the fan during it?

      Let’s pretend the employee in question has a health issue that makes her poo particularly pungent. She would then have some protections and the company should tread lightly. Stinky poop is not a reason to fire someone. The company could put air fresheners in the hall if the smell is seeping out.

      1. Cheesesteak in Paradise*

        Exactly what I would have said. Human bodies are weird and make different doors depending on people’s biology, health, intestinal microbiome, diet, whatever. The employee probably can’t help it.

        The solution would be to ignore it or hire a contractor to put in a better exhaust system. IMHO living in a house full of humans, your average bathroom fan doesn’t do much.

        1. Murphy*

          I suggested it was a problem with the bathroom, and someone called me an idiot. Gotta love Reddit!

          1. Federal Middle Manager*

            Right? Maybe make the fan come on automatically with the light switch or run all the time at a low level? There are other solutions.

      2. Not Me*

        According to the poster on reddit the employee is purposely not turning the fan on. Refusing to follow a reasonable request is definitely something you can terminate someone for, it really has nothing to do with the smell at that point.

        1. Fortitude Jones*

          Yeah, if the employee isn’t complying with the simple request to then the fan on after using the toilet after being asked to do so twice by the manager, I think that’s insubordination at that point.

      3. Engineer Girl*

        Stinky poop is not a reason to fire. Failure to mitigate the circumstances is. And if it is a medical condition then the employee has to disclose to be protected.

      4. A tester, not a developer*

        Yep – longtime IBD sufferer here. My output laughs at fans. Sprays merely make it seem as though someone draped a lemon wedge or bouquet of roses over a heated dumpster. I feel bad for my co-workers, and try to find a more private place if I have the warning time, but it’s not always an option. But IBD is a disability, so I’ve made sure the right paperwork is in place to keep the sh!t from hitting the fan. :)

        1. JulieCanCan*

          Ok not laughing at your IBD – I’m literally in the same boat – but “my output laughs at fans “ and “ draped a lemon wedge over a heated dumpster” OMG I cannot stop laughing.

          You have an amazing way with words.

    7. Middle School Teacher*

      Why can’t the fan just stay on all the time? Is it really that loud?

      1. silverpie*

        Or at least tied to the light—when one is on, so is the other. “Every problem has an engineering solution.”

      2. Lana Kane*

        The Reddit OP says that it’s a manual 15 minute timer, and they are asking the landlord to change it so it can just be left on.

    8. Utoh!*

      Can’t the fan just be “left on” at all times? I’ve noticed that is what happens here in our one-stall (women’s bathroom). Or one that is automated to go on when someone goes in there and turns off after 10 minutes or so?

    10. hbc*

      This is solved by putting the fan on the same circuit as the light, thereby:
      1) Ensuring the fan runs every time someone poops.
      2) Covering up any bathroom-related noises that might not be directly tied to pooping.
      3) Not making employees essentially have to signal when they’re pooping.

      Also, related to 1 & 2, I read somewhere that most bathroom fans aren’t designed so much for odor removal as white noise machines. The smell effect might be imaginary.

      1. LCL*

        This is how my house bathroom is wired. Heck, if the company wants to do something for energy conservation, put the light and fan on motion detector switches. Such switches are available with adjustable time intervals. The boss doing the odor patrol work has other troubles with setting priorities, I bet.

        1. Easily Amused*

          I’ve had motion detector lights turn off on me while using a company restroom and I wasn’t even taking my time or pooping! I ended up feeling my way, arms out, to the sinks only to have the lights suddenly turn on as someone else came in. Someone from a different company so instead of laughing about it, she looked st me like I was crazy. Pretty mortifying.

      2. fhqwhgads*

        Most bathroom fans are designed to mitigate the condensation from running a hot shower. Newer ones are quiet enough they don’t function as white noise machines.

    11. buttrue???*

      The solution is to have the fan connected to the light. Light goes on, fan goes on. this was not uncommon in the past in homes when the bathroom had no window.

    12. Not So NewReader*

      Some businesses have an air freshener system- it’s not just a fan there’s also a device to help clear the air. It runs on a motion detector I think??? I am hoping someone knows what I am talking about and can chime in.

      I have worked in some pretty strange situations and, yeah, if there is someone routinely making the bathroom unusable for others this is a problem. If the company cannot afford some type of automated technology to relieve the situation, then the employees have to pitch in and do their part. To my way of thinking, it’s no different than at home, you wipe the seat, turn on the fan, what ever is necessary so the next person can use the bathroom comfortably.

      While not possible in all settings the boss could move her desk to be by the bathroom and move others away.

      I can understand people thinking that the boss is horrible for watching others come out of the bathroom. But I would only have to hear it one time that there was a problem and I would make darn sure it was not ME. So while the boss is not looking great here, neither is the employee. At least she is not scolding the entire group because of one repeat offender. And, frankly, the woman is refusing to turn the fan on, what did she think was going to happen next. It’s so simple, turn. the. fan. on.

    13. Fresh Smell*

      I am someone that sits where the smell is bad. I went to the dollar tree and bought poo be gone. The cost is worth not smelling floral spray over poo!

    14. Policy Wonk*

      Have an electrician re-wire the bathroom so that the fan is automatically turned on when the light is turned on.

    15. Not Me*

      I think it’s funny so many people are suggesting hiring an electrician and re-wiring the bathroom instead of just…turning on the fan. Since the OP is both the manager and HR and they only have 1 bathroom I can’t imagine it’s a very large company. The cost of changing the way the electric is wired because 1 person is refusing to flip a switch is really pretty absurd.

      1. Murphy*

        I do think the employee should just turn on the fan, but I still think that’s a silly reason to fire somebody. Also more importantly, the stalking the bathroom after each use is creepy.

        1. Not Me*

          Would it have been better to ignore the problem and complaints from employees? How else should she have figured out who the problem was caused by? If someone complained about a really strong perfume would it be “creepy” to walk thru the office and see who was the one wearing the perfume?

          These kinds of things are not fun to deal with, but they still need to be dealt with.

          I agree it’s a silly reason to fire someone, not being fired for it is the employees responsibility though. She’s said she is purposely not turning the fan on, even after being asked multiple times.

          1. Lilysparrow*

            Why? Why does the manager need to know who is pooping? The whole thing is completely unnecessary.

            Just turn the fan on and tape it there.

            The employee’s poop schedule is not causing a problem. The fan not being on is the problem.

            So fix the actual problem without acting like a preschool teacher doing diaper check.

            1. Not Me*

              The fan has a timer and will shut off. Which means leaving it on all the time would require paying for an electrician to re-wire it. That’s ridiculous when there’s an easy solution everyone else in the office is using.

      2. LCL*

        Our electricians are ex.pen.sive and worth every penny. This would be a quick job, and total cost expended would be much less than all of the labor hours spent checking the bathroom after each user, documenting, getting HR involved, etc. Not to mention the hit to the manager’s and the company’s credibility and reputation wasting any time on this. I am amazed at how many posts make it to ask a manager that are a variant of “my office is dealing with some broken down piece of junk and I won’t/can’t/coworkers won’t and can’t manage the workaround. How can I micromanage them to work the piece of equipment exactly correctly so we can all be happy?” I work with people whose job is making critical equipment work, mistakes can be destructive and fatal, and control interfaces are always a consideration. This control stuff isn’t easy, there is a whole science behind it, and the simplest, safest and cheapest solution usually starts with fixing what isn’t working well.

        1. Not Me*

          “the simplest, safest and cheapest solution usually starts with fixing what isn’t working well”

          Totally agree. In this case the simplest, safest, and cheapest solution is the employee turning on the fan just like all the other employees.

          1. Close Bracket*

            Except that they were asked to, and they aren’t. Getting someone to do something when they won’t is really complex, whereas rewiring a switch is simple. So, when complex and cheap fails, go with simple and expensive.

            1. Not Me*

              Right, and that’s when you terminate an employee for being insubordinate and telling you they’re being insubordinate and don’t appear to care at all. You don’t re-wire the electricity.

              No one else in the office is having a problem using the fan. This employee is purposely refusing to do what is asked of her. That’s not ok.

    16. The Man, Becky Lynch*

      If I sit next to the pooper and it’s wafting, I’m going to get my butt up and go flip the fan on myself. The person whoh’s complaining is also a huge stinker of her own because you can handle it yourself…you don’t fire someone over this.

    17. designbot*

      This is an ESH. It’s a sucky reason to fire someone, but it’s also a sucky thing to do in the first place.

    18. Boomerang Girl*

      I would call in an electrician to connect the fan to the light. Every time the light is turned on, the fan runs.

      But more on point, not following a basic request is something for which a person can be fired. However, manager should document the crap (sorry) out of the multiple requests and lack of improvement.

  23. Fake Old Converse Shoes (not in the US)*

    So, after a month and a half, four interviews and an reference check without my permission (they called someone who doesn’t work with me)… The external recruiter sent me a one line email telling me I didn’t get the job. I’m sad because this was the first time after a long while I got to the last stage.

    2. Seeking Second Childhood*

      They called someone who doesn’t work with you!? It kind of sounds like you dodged a bullet!

      1. Fake Old Converse Shoes (not in the US)*

        Yeah, apparently they went to LinkedIn, found someone who listed my current job in their profile and sent a message. The guy they reached knows me but never worked with me, so I wouldn’t asked him to be my reference. Luckily they didn’t chose my team leader, who is in cahoots with the owners (and obviously not to be trusted).

          1. T. Boone Pickens*

            Ahh, the old backdoor reference trick. Some recruiters still use it. It’s a little too fear mongering for my tastes.

            1. Fake Old Converse Shoes (not in the US)*

              Yeah, it could have costed me my job if they messaged my team leader (who outed someone he found taking a phone interview at a nearby junk food place).

          2. Fake Old Converse Shoes (not in the US)*

            No, I didn’t. In fact, I haven’t been asked for references since I interviewed with Big Consulting Company That Starts With A, about… six years ago.

    3. Not So NewReader*

      So very sorry.
      You did get to the last stage though, so maybe the tide is turning and your new job will come up soon.

    4. SecondChoice*

      Oh my god that’s awful. I’m job searching now (after a layoff) so I understand the soul crushing pain of this kind of rejection.

      I’m so sorry you went through that. They are the assholes here, not you. I hope you blast them on Glassdoor.

  24. Deb Morgan*

    People who work at or have worked at summer camps, give me your tips! I’m going to be a summer camp counselor (overnight for just one week) and I want to make it awesome for the campers.

    1. Blue Bunny*

      Set all your social media to private before you go. The kids will try to dig up dirt on the counselors. If the organization allows you all to go by nicknames, choose one that isn’t already associated with your identity.

      Take a truckload of sunscreen, poison ivy soap, and bug spray.

    2. JB*

      Some of my favorite memories as a camper and as a counselor were spontaneous activities (our camp was a bit regimented in how we ran normal programming) – you can’t leave HUGE blocks of unstructured time (it’s a great opportunity for kids to get homesick or bully each other) but giving them a nudge toward something to do goes a long way! As a camper, I remember our counselors once idly suggesting we build “gnome houses” and another time letting us run around the woods playing superheroes. As a counselor, another counselor once brought her kids to me for a “Dead Poet’s Society” poetry reading by the pond while the rest of her unit went to the farm for a night visit.

    3. Rainy days*

      Try to spend a little bit of time with each camper, including the quiet or awkward ones–if you eat meals together, sit next to a different person for each meal.

      I’m not sure how old you are and how old the campers are, but if you’re young I think the hardest part of these kinds of roles is finding a balance between being an authority figure and being a cool older sibling type of figure. Too strict and they won’t warm up to you–too permissive and they won’t respect you and won’t feel safe. Figure out ahead of time what boundaries you’re going to set in terms of revealing stuff about your personal life, and also what kind of rules you’re okay bending. You might be cool about staying up talking an hour later than lights out, but everyone is going to stay the heck on the path if you’re hiking.

    4. Iris Eyes*

      Have a funny bedtime story to two to tell. (The Tale of Contradiction is a great one) A “scary” story is also great to have in your back pocket (at a Christian camp going with The Valley of Dry Bones from Ezekiel was a pretty decent choice)

      If you are with girls knowing how to braid hair is generally enough to make you pretty popular.

      Be there for the kids, if a stomach virus runs through camp don’t ignore sick campers under your care and leave the clean up to others. Try not to spend time with other adults/counselors when kids aren’t present (unless its after bed time, then epic card games are encouraged) It can be a hard and exhausting week but it can also be some of the best times of your life.

    5. Auntie Social*

      Bring food/a snack for your first night that you “smuggled” in—making it feel illicit makes it taste twice as good.

    6. Aleya*

      Keep in mind that some kids are introverts/have sensory issues and need down time to chill and process. When I went to summer camp, it was actually really stressful because it felt like I was being pushed from one activity to the next with no choice to sit things out or be alone. Also, when deciding on activities as a group, don’t assume that just because no one said “no” that everyone actually wants to do it.

    7. Eleanor Shellstrop*

      -TAKE CARE OF YOUR BODY. Being sick as a camp counselor is just miserable. Eat as balanced of a diet you can, try not to stay up too late if possible, and stock up on cold medicine/other sick supplies before you leave.
      -Losing your voice is very likely, my go-to drink for this was hot water and honey mixed with apple cider vinegar. Super weird tasting but effective.
      -Have a “thing” that distinguishes you that will make being in your cabin special. I always brought my sticker collection and would have sticker decorating parties with my campers, and would play guitar and sing them lullabies every night. Makes great memories and helps foster a sense of community.
      -Have a repertoire of silly games and repeat-after-me songs in your back pocket for transition times – walking to meals, waiting for instructions, etc.
      -Enjoy!! Summer camp was one of my all-time favorite jobs, there’s really nothing like it :)

    8. Not So NewReader*

      I liked my camp that I went to as a kid. The one big misstep that stands out in my mind was the 20 mile hike over rugged terrain. It took me the rest of the week to recuperate from that one. I will never forget the river and the counselors forming a human chain so us kids could get across. I was so scared and it seemed like such a breach of trust to be foisted into this situation. I might have been less scared if we had not gone down a cliff to get to the river below. The counselors did a human chain for the cliff, too. You could see the river at the bottom so you knew that was the next hurdle. The smaller kids had to be passed from one adult to another. Lucky me, I was tall enough to walk on my own. I am not sure which was worse.
      Between the length of the hike and the challenges of the trail I was ready to go home.

    9. AnnieK*

      Several years camping, few as a counselor (overnight, cabins, in a forest). Not sure how old you / your campers are, or if it’s a skills focused camp or a general one, so some advice may change. Seconding “back pocket games”. Downtime is the killer, and weather makes things hard to plan, so you might have long periods of being stuck inside with scared kids during thunderstorms / tornado warnings / etc. Back pocket games are great distractions for that. Black Magic (semi-convoluted guessing game) is great. Spies is a fun travel game for walking from place to place without losing people (walk normally and then yell “Spies” and everyone has to run together to safety (usually the nearest building). These can be pretty age-dependent though–9 year-olds like spies, 14 yos will be less enthused.

      You’re on the kids’ time: if they need you to walk them to the bathroom at 2 am, you go. Relatedly, learn the layout of your camp REALLY WELL–you’ll only be there a week, but the kids won’t know that and will expect you to be the expert. Rely on your co-workers as much as you can, be creative, appear to have fun even when you’d rather be sleeping in.

      The most important thing I can say though: pick your battles and let the kids discover natural consequences for themselves. Early on, I lost a lot of face with one of my campers and possibly the whole cabin by trying to enforce too much. (Mid-August, 14yo wanted to wear velour pants all day. I (only a little older, in fairness) pushed back on that because she’d get too hot. She got angry, and I was less patient than I should have been, and by the time she wanted to leave the cabin without shoes [MASSIVE NO, we were in a FOREST, all kinds of likely injury scenarios] I had no authority left. My co-counselor had to step in; camper eventually wore shoes and the velour pants and then went back after morning chores and changed into shorts–which she would have done if I hadn’t pushed in the first place. But my credibility and relationship were blown. Don’t be me.)

      Good luck and have fun!

    10. Hermione at Heart*

      Second what everyone else has said, particularly making sure you spend time with all of the kids (even the ones you might not warm to immediately), limiting time with other adults around the kids, and, especially if you are close in age to the campers, figuring out your boundaries (or learning what the camp’s are) around what you can/should tell them about your life.

      In addition to that:
      —Enthusiasm and energy go a long way. If you are prepared for whatever activity you’re leading but also bring the conviction that it’s going to be fun, it will be fun! The fact that your goal is to make it awesome *for them* is super important. (Also, some kids, especially younger ones, find enthusiasm/energy/wackiness from strangers kinda scary at first. If you’re not a natural extrovert that’s OK. Plenty of counselors will fulfill that role and it’s also good to be steady and stable!)

      —Get in the moment. Participate in activities. Dress up funny. Do stuff you wouldn’t do at home. BUT don’t lose sight of your responsibility to step in if something’s getting out of control. The magic of camp is that it’s a liminal space between childhood and independence, home and school, etc. Having “adults” who have the good part of adulthood (make you feel protected and safe) while still being able to be silly and fun in a way that typical adults or teachers might not is a big part of this.

      —Encourage campers to talk and tell you about their day, whether that’s at dinner or right before bed. Have them go around and say one thing they enjoyed, or play “roses and thorns” (one good thing/one bad thing), or ask what they’re looking forward to tomorrow.

      —Be with the kids. If you aren’t around kids 24/7, counseling is exhausting and you are going to want a break. But as much as you can, especially during unsupervised/unstructured time, be with the kids.

      —Kids are going to look up to you like crazy and they pick up on everything. Doesn’t matter if they’re 8 or 18. One thing I always try to do, but especially around teenage girls, is to think about how I’m talking about myself, my body, and what I eat – not saying “I shouldn’t, but I will!” or “It’s OK, I’m running around all day!” when I eat dessert, for example.

      —Be proactive. If something seems off to you in a group dynamic, a kid who seems uncomfortable/alone, in an interaction between another camper and a counselor, you hear kids planning to sneak out, etc., say or do something.

      —Especially if you are over 25: take care of yourself. You’re gonna be tired and germs rip through camp like crazy.

      —HAVE FUN! Camp is so special and wonderful. I was a camp counselor for years, long after I should have abandoned it, and I love it so much.

      1. Hermione at Heart*

        Oh and YES to back pocket games. A few off the top of my head that work with almost all ages:

        –masking tape guessing game: put the name of a celebrity (or a fellow counselor, or, IDK, a kind of food — you decide the rules!) on a strip of tape on someone’s forehead, they have to ask yes/no questions until they guess who it is. (great for mealtimes when no one’s talking)

        –everyone stands/sits in a circle. pick one player to walk away. designate one person in the circle as the leader who has to start an action that everyone follows (clapping, snapping, waving their hands over their head, etc). when the leader changes actions, everyone else follows. the person who walked away has to guess who the leader is.

        –everyone stands in a circle, giant ball in the middle, goal is to hit the ball through another player’s legs BUT it must stay on the ground the whole time

        –duck duck goose. honestly. little kids already find it fun. big kids find it fun to pretend to be little kids.

    11. Brunch with Sylvia*

      You have some great suggestions here. I worked two summers in college at a sleepaway camp where the campers changed weekly. Age range 7-18, so each week was a little different and much of your experience will depend on the campers’ ages and the structure of the camp.
      Regardless of age, I recommend that you are warm and friendly with each camper as your first meet but be a stickler about camp rules at the very outset. Hold a cabin meeting and be firm. It is really is okay if they think for a few hours that maybe you are a stick in the mud.
      Try to have warm, personal interactions at the first meal and evening events, sit or walk by different campers, making sure you have at least 1 positive encounter with each of your campers.
      Every evening at bedtime, I would say goodnight to each camper at her bunk—even the teens. I would ask them a question or two about their day, try to make some positive observation and tell each that I was so happy that they were in my cabin.

    12. vonlowe*

      Be really big on privacy – they had managed to find his mobile number and started texting them. Also keep track of hours – I ended up working nearly 110 hours in the first week because the camp manager wasn’t doing any part of their job and we also had to do stuff like get coffee for her.

  25. ThatGirl*

    Update from last week: I had my interview Tuesday and wore dark jeans, heeled boots, a dark shirt and a more structured cardigan that has a sort of blazery feel. It went well, though I was caught a little off guard when the HR guy who was my last interview actually asked behavioral questions (how I get along with coworkers, etc) instead of just “so, any questions?” I mean – they were good questions, I just wasn’t quite expecting it. He did indicate that I am a strong candidate and that they haven’t had many, but I won’t hear anything until next week I’m sure. At least.

    Here’s another random question – how much do you think I can push back a little on hours? the manager indicated they mostly work 9 hr days (I assume with an hour lunch) and I would much prefer to work an 8.5 hr day and only take a half hour lunch – I don’t want to be pushy or demanding, it’s not a deal breaker, but it’s something I negotiated with my manager when I started.

    1. Holly*

      Can you remind folks who didn’t see your prior post what industry this is in? My industry doesn’t have structured lunches like that so it would come off as insane to ask, but this could be a totally different field and job that does have a 1 hour lunch in which case I figure there’s no harm in asking as long as you frame it as being OK if it wasn’t possible.

      1. ThatGirl*

        It was an internal interview within the same company — I work for a baking and decorating (cpg) company – lunch culture seems to vary a bit from department to department. Currently I work in customer service and most of us work an 8.5 hour day with the option for an hour lunch (1/2 unpaid, 1/2 hour combining two 15-minute breaks). I’d be moving to Creative and it’s not weird to me that they would have different ideas about what constitutes a working day. But I don’t need an hour for lunch and would rather have a slightly shorter working day.

    2. Psyche*

      I don’t think it would be weird to ask about taking a half hour lunch to leave a half hour early. That isn’t pushy at all. If they say that they don’t do that and you keep trying to negotiate, then it could come across as pushy.

    3. CupcakeCounter*

      I wouldn’t make it a hill to die on but you could mention that you worked out X schedule with your current group and would it be possible to still work those core hours. There might be a reason for the 8-5 with 1 hour lunch vs 8-4:30 with a 1/2 hour lunch but it won’t hurt to ask if it is something they will consider.

      1. ThatGirl*

        Well, that’s the thing, the hours are somewhat flexible anyway – some people work 7-4, others 8-5, so it wouldn’t be a coverage issue (also new position is not customer facing). I would definitely not make it a hill to die on – especially since I live close enough that rush-hour traffic isn’t a huge problem – but it works well for me, my husband and my dog to keep the same schedule.

    4. IL JimP*

      you could ask for sure, I would bet they would still want to set the begin or end time to make sure of whatever coverage they may need

  26. Foot in the Door*

    My friend previously worked in IT/Systems Administrations. He just finished an intensive programming bootcamp and is now looking for a full-stack Web Developer job. He’s struggling to get interviews because he doesn’t have any professional work experience as a Web Dev yet (even though he has portfolio work, that’s the feedback he’s getting). There is a local company he’s very interested in and there is an IT position open. He is going to apply and wouldn’t mind working in that capacity to get his foot in the door. If he gets an interview, at what point should he talk to them about wanting to move over into programming? Should he be up front and bring it up in an interview as a longer term gaol? Or should he wait and if hired, give it a few months and then bring it up? Any insights or stories of past experiences would be helpful. Thanks in advance!

    1. gecko*

      IME it’s really not welcome in many tech companies to get hired and then only use it as a foot-in-the-door for a programming position.

      I will say that larger companies may have programs to train people and move them into development roles, so that’s probably a better bet–at my last company, folks in other roles could take company-paid computer science courses at a nearby university and move into a development role.

      Still wouldn’t say in the interview that he’s planning to move on soon. They’re looking for people to work the job they’re hiring for. I think he should either keep looking for a development job or look for a company with education programs like that.

      1. Tau*

        Agreed – I’d expect the company to be looking for an IT person, not a new developer. Junior positions in a larger team might be a good bet, they generally won’t mind training someone up a bit.

        I also wouldn’t look for “full-stack” as a keyword as I think that often carries the connotation of at least a few years’ experience.

        1. Foot in the Door*

          Really appreciate the feedback though I’m not sure why the term “full-stack” would have anything to do with level of experience. I am also a developer with many years of experience but my career has focused on front end technologies. At this point, my friend is way more comfortable with back-end implementations that I am only vaguely familiar with so he is a full-stack developer (front-end and back-end).

          1. Tau*

            Maybe it’s just me, then? I’ve always felt like “full-stack” has the connotation that you’re decently experienced in a broad range of technologies (back-end and front-end, probably also databases, maybe also infrastructure) – like, at my current job I do back-end, front-end, some database work and some devops but wouldn’t call myself full-stack because I don’t think my front-end skills are up to par. But now that you mention it I’m not sure if this entirely aligns with industry norms.

            1. gecko*

              I think it doesn’t quite align–it just doesn’t mean as much as if you have less experience overall, but I think it’s still useful to say because it doesn’t _just_ mean “experienced”; it distinguishes you from someone who really only writes javascript or builds out more static websites, and also from people (like I used to be) who come out school only knowing academic programming. Basically I think there’s some understanding that “decently experienced” does mean different things based on where you are in your career.

          2. Darren*

            Full-stack has the connotation of level of experience because it requires it. A full stack developer has to be familiar with:

            – Front-end technologies (JavaScript, HTML, CSS, etc)
            – Back-end technologies (Databases, etc)
            – Middle-ware technologies (CMSs, etc)

            And able to confidently debug and resolve issues across that entire stack. i.e. it’s slow to get results to the customer order query is that an issue with the front-end taking too long to display entries, or the database in querying due to a poor key design.

            It’s not a matter of years (you can build up both front-end and back-end experience at the same time), but it is a matter of experience (you expect a lot more knowledge in a full-stack developer than in a front-end or back-end one).

        2. Clisby*

          What do you mean by an IT person? I was a computer programmer for 25+ years – we were all part of IT. Just like the systems administrators, the network people, the security people …

          1. gecko*

            In most tech companies, IT departments are separate from R&D departments. Someone looking for a full-stack web development position is probably going for a more R&D type of role, developing the website or service that the tech company sells. IT in those cases usually handles internal system administration, security, internal website development, dev ops, etc. Usually with development roles being paid more highly than IT roles.

    2. Foot in the Door*

      This has gotten a bit derailed on what is meant by “full-stack” which was not the question I submitted. I would still be interested in opinions on expressing longer term goals of moving from one department to another. I do appreciate that people have responded though!

      1. GreyNerdShark*

        Generally it isn’t a good idea to spring it on them… but he can say “I am trying to move into development, is that likely for someone in this job?”

        Also, don’t know what portfolio he has, but he should get him some open source chops. Contribute to projects. Any kind of programming helps and the energy to do it counts for a lot. Of course he wants to find projects that do things he wants to do, but there are a lot out there.

        1. T. Boone Pickens*

          A way to ask about promotional opportunities without asking about promotional opportunities that’s worked for me is to ask, “What are the long term career goals for this position?” It’s open-ended enough that your friend should hopefully get some good info.

        2. Easily Amused*

          Thank you! Both helpful responses that I appreciate! I was thinking the same but wasn’t sure if I was off base – that he could ask about growth paths within the organization from the role he’d be applying to. (As opposed to just saying, I want to code but I’ll do this if I have to).

          GreyNerdyShark – he has a GitHub with several projects he did during the bootcamp and he’s currently working on a larger app that he treats as a full time job while he submits applications. He is checking in code all day every day.

          Also, for context, I work in software development (I work in mobile front end dev/friend is looking for full-stack Web dev) and my company has been saying that they can’t find anyone here with experience. There is a tech college and another major university right down the street and I’ve heard a lot of complaints over the years that once students graduate, they leave. I get that companies want someone to come in and hit the ground running but they’ve sort of created their own probelem by not giving new tech students a chance. So instead of helping to foster a home grown tech community fed by these local schools, they’ve been bringing in contractors from out of state. It’s pretty frustrating to see.

  27. Cloudshadow*

    My work is extremely stressful and my work environment highly toxic; I am looking for a new job but the search is taking a long time. I had started therapy a couple months ago to deal with my work stress and try to figure out my next steps. My boss generally disapproves of any and all time out of the office, so I was only going every other week, on a schedule that just required me to take a slightly longer lunch break. However, last week my boss told me that these absences were too disruptive and that, unless it was a life-threatening emergency, I was no longer allowed to take time off for medical appointments. (My boss is the CEO, and the only HR-related person in our office handles payroll/benefits but no actual personnel matters.) I tried an Allison-like script (“I appreciate that me being away from the office isn’t ideal! However, given that this is a necessary medical appointment for me, how should we proceed? My thoughts are…[offered ideas for minimizing disruption and for full work coverage]”) but was told that how “we” would proceed is that I would do as ordered and cancel the appointments, or else I would be fired. My work schedule requires me to arrive early (around 7:30 – 8 am) and work until 8 or 9 pm each night, so it would not be possible for me to find an appointment outside of work hours (none of the therapists covered by my insurance have weekend hours). What should I do? I am really badly in need of mental health help, and I’m not sure I will be in a great position to present myself well in a job search unless I can get some help, but I can’t afford to be unemployed.

    1. Interplanet Janet*

      Do you get a scheduled lunch break? Some therapists can do phone or video chat sessions.

      1. Sherm*

        +1. My friend who is a therapist works entirely over the phone, in fact. If you can only escape to a phone for 30 minutes, perhaps that would be more or less equivalent for you as is going in for an hour every other week.

      2. Fortitude Jones*

        I was just about to say this. My therapist and I have had phone and FaceTime calls when I couldn’t physically make it to her office.

      3. Cloudshadow*

        Full lunch breaks are strongly discouraged – it’s okay to run out for 10-15 minutes to grab something, but most people eat at their desks. Workspace is almost all open plan so no privacy for an extended call – the boss is usually okay with people stepping into a conference room for a quick personal call (less than 5 minutes), but a 30+ minute call wouldn’t work. I appreciate the ideas though!

      1. Cloudshadow*

        The company is too small for FMLA, sadly. I know I could still request a disability accommodation but that would require me to disclose something about why I need medical attention, and as the boss has been extremely unkind in the past to employees with mental health accommodation needs, I would prefer not to go there, even if I’m legally in the right.

        1. The Man, Becky Lynch*

          You don’t ever need to disclose WHY you need the accommodation. You just need to have a doctors note that says “Cloudshadow is in my care and requires weekly/bi-weekly appointments that last X amount of time.” They have no right to your medical information. Just that it’s a “medical” Issue and you’re being treated by a doctor.

          1. Cloudshadow*

            Unfortunately, in this case, the boss requires more information – a generic doctor’s note isn’t accepted and he demands to know the type of doctor being seen and at least the general reason for the visit. Saying “that’s private” or “I’m not comfortable disclosing personal medical info” doesn’t fly and gets the employee accused of lying or hiding something. Whether or not he’s “allowed” to behave this way, we don’t have an HR person to tell him otherwise, and he’s said that people who act “sneaky” by not disclosing the requested info don’t have a place in the company.

    3. Lena Clare*

      Well, you could take sick leave, if you get paid for your sick leave that is.

      I’m pretty sure your boss can’t prevent you from getting necessary medical attention, but I’m not sure who you’d see about it. In the UK you can go to the Equality Advisory Service and ACAS for work support. Is there anything like that for you in the country (I’m guessing the US?) you’re in? Also, try a mental health charity for advice.

      Sorry your boss sucks.

      1. Cloudshadow*

        Unfortunately we don’t have sick leave or PTO, per se. The boss will sometimes allow people to be off (with pay) for medical or personal reasons but the approvals/denials seem pretty random and not tied to any consistent patterns of discrimination.

        Our industry actually has huge issues with mental health due to the stress and long hours required. I gently brought this up with the boss in the past but he is determined to believe that mental health issues are just a result of some people being “weak” or not being able to hack it in a tough environment, and he said he wasn’t open to discussing it further.

        1. Lena Clare*

          Oh no! Well you could go the route of treating it as a disability (a mental or physical impairment, that has a significant impact, on day-day activities (work is one!), in the long-term.) That is the legal definition of disability so if you can get your GP to confirm that your condition meets all four points then your employer must legally make reasonable adjustments to support you. You could then easily prove that having some time off every other week is a reasonable adjustment, as opposed to actually being off work – which, if it is for a disability is not counted as sick leave. I think this may be the same in the US, with FMLA?

          Having to go through all this stress and your boss being awful is a whole other kettle of fish though, I am sorry you’re going through that.

          1. JJ*

            That’s the UK equivalent of a disability. It might not apply in the US.

            The people you need there are the EEOC I believe.

          2. JJ*

            Also, reasonable adjustments = still UK. I know you mean well but I don’t see how it’s helpful to give advice that isn’t necessarily correct in another country, so it’s probably best not to.

        2. Bortus*

          You work in an office full of bees. This place is toxic and you need to be looking for another job.

          1. Seeking Second Childhood*

            Cloudshadow clearly states that they ARE already looking for another job. They’re looking for a way to keep it together in impossible situations, so that the next interviewer will snap them up.

    4. Jimming*

      If you’re in the US, ask your therapist/doctor to sign a short-term disability form. I don’t remember what it’s called exactly, but in the past my doctor approved me to have 4 hours off per week for therapy appointments. It was unpaid but it protected my job.

    5. Moray*

      If you feel like you need to give an explanation, someone in this forum a while back suggested using physical therapy as a cover for ongoing medical appointments. You could say that, explain that it’s for a limited time but your injury is only going to get worse if you don’t do it.

      People sadly tend to be more understanding of physical injury than mental health, and maybe you could even hint that if your injury gets worse because of your job it would open a can of workman’s comp worms that she doesn’t want to touch.

    6. Veryanon*

      Wait, what? You come in at 7:30 or 8am and are there every day until 8-9pm every night? I’m getting stressed out just reading that – is that normal for your field? Additionally you have no PTO/sick leave and you’re apparently never supposed to have medical appointments????? I think I would take my chances on being fired and continue with the therapy appointments. At least if you get fired, you can get unemployment until your next opportunity comes down the pike.

      1. CupcakeCounter*

        Yup – my thoughts exactly and then file for unemployment benefits. If they fight it be sure to have good documentation of your hours (which are not in any way acceptable), the timing of your appointments, and the conversation you had with boss about how to work it out and the lack of compromise.
        Basically call his bluff.

      2. Fortitude Jones*

        I would do the same thing. And when you get asked in interviews why you left your last job, you’ll be able to say your CEO fired you after you asked for a reasonable work accommodation. Anyone would be sympathetic to this, unless they’re related to your boss.

      3. Cloudshadow*

        Yes – those hours are pretty normal for the field – I’ve actually had jobs that required even longer hours in the past, although those jobs allowed sick and vacation days at least. I wouldn’t mind the hours if I could take breaks now and then, particularly to attend to my physical and mental health!

    7. Some Sort of Management Consultant*

      That’s really tough. My first thoughts were FMLA or sick leave or vacation days but I saw others had already suggested that.

      Could online therapy be a possibility? I see more and more video services popping up and it might be better than nothing?

    8. Bananatiel*

      I’m going to piggyback on framing this as a broad health issue since mental health issues aren’t usually taken well by toxic bosses (ask me how I know lol).

      As someone that has navigated some serious health stuff– keep emphasizing that these are non-negotiable and that if you are not able to make the appointments it would *most definitely* mean increased absences from the office for health reasons. Try to get her to see that her options are “gone for an extra half hour once in a while OR gone for whole days once in a while”. That worked okay on toxicboss for me. The other winning strategy was to point out that I had no scheduling control with my appointments. This was actually true in my case– my specialist was so in-demand and busy in my area that appointments are made six months in advance and scheduling sounds something like this “We have two appt slots on x day, six months from now, one at 1 and one a 3, which would you prefer?” I once got into a minor argument with my boss where I literally repeated that line back to her to demonstrate that I really had no choice and that we had six months (!) to prepare for my one-hour absence.

      Not sure how effective this would be in your specific workplace but my toxicboss actually respected the opinions of some people in my company– I had to use this in my favor. If the nature of your toxic office includes a healthy and thriving rumor mill– don’t be afraid to twist it to your advantage. Especially since you already know you’re working on getting out. I knew my boss complained about me to other people and I managed to get a few people she respected on my side enough with some issues that they would defend me and she would relent, much to her chagrin. When she started to get really out of hand about health issues I managed to get her back in line this way a couple times. I’m really not proud of having to do any of that but it made my last months easier.

      GOOD LUCK in your job search! I’m in a much better place now and I wish the same for you because your boss sounds horrific.

    9. Spunky Brewster*

      Are you eligible for intermittent FMLA? That might provide job protection for therapist appointments.

    10. JudyInDisguise*

      Is it possible to use an online virtual doctor/therapist? Some insurance companies cover Teledoc or Doctor on Demand.

    11. Seeking Second Childhood*

      Would you consider calling a help line and asking them for advice? You’d be able to give them more detail than you can put on the internet, and that might make all the difference for getting specific, helpful suggestions.
      Mental Health America dot net is just one I’ve heard about online.
      Good luck – I’m glad you recognize this place is awful and are already looking for a new job!

      1. Mr. Shark*

        I know it’s not ideal, but can you have shorter sessions so they fit in your lunch break? It seems like there’s no leeway with your boss, no Allison-izing that you can do, unfortunately.
        I’m not sure how you are managing those hours–that’s ridiculous, and I”m not sure what industry would require those hours.
        But maybe the shorter sessions will work in your schedule and avoid you being out of the office for longer than your lunch. The only other alternative is to push it, record everything, get fired, and then get unemployment or sue him for wrongful termination.

        1. Easily Amused*

          I worked as a Visual Effects artist and those hours were the norm so sadly, there are industries out there that demand it. We were unlikely to get time off requests approved even though we had PTO as a benefit and if you went to an appointment, you had to make up the time but not being allowed to go at all? That’s really terrible. I’m sorry OP. I hope you find a great healthy place that treats employees like real live human beings soon!

    12. WellRed*

      Unfortunately, it sounds like he knows it’s for mental health and he doesn’t believe in it.

    13. Not So NewReader*

      Do you have a therapist now? If yes, does she realize the severity of your situation? I think I would email her and tell her what you have told us. Ask her if she sees any solutions/options here.

      If you do not have a therapist, perhaps you can call the therapists who will take your insurance and ask if they make exceptions for people whose time is severely constrained, yet have an urgent need for help. (I was going to say “… for people who have soulless bosses” but probably that won’t motivate the therapist to accommodate your schedule.)

      1. Cloudshadow*

        I actually didn’t love the therapist I was seeing for a couple months (she wanted to rehash my childhood, while I really wanted to focus on practical strategies to manage current life stresses) so I’d prefer to find a new one. My insurance does have a referral service (who will help locate providers when the individual policy holder is having difficulty finding the right specialist) so perhaps I can check that out.

    14. sheep jump death match*

      Bosses who need you in the office for 12 or 13 hours a day and can’t spare you for an extra hour every other week are bosses who DESPERATELY NEED YOU. He can’t get along without you from 12:00-2:00 every other Tuesday; what’s he going to do the day after he fires you? Just implement whatever you laid out for coverage, keep going to your appointments, and wait for him to fire you. He won’t.

      1. Happy Lurker*

        Agreeing with Veryanon and Sheep Jump. Cloudshadow – I feel very bad for you. Working 12 hours a day non stop with no kind of break is terrible. Of course you need a break and therapy.
        It feels callous to post that you should let the boss fire you for 30 minutes every other week and then try to collect unemployment, but it seems like the only thing for you to do. Your boss is not going to change, so try to get your finances in as best order as you can to prepare for no job. I truly hope you find a better job quickly.
        In the meantime, don’t apologize to crazy boss for any and all absences (mental health or interviews). Take care of yourself.

      2. AvonLady Barksdale*

        Eh, I don’t know about that. I mean, you’re theoretically correct, but I’ve worked for someone who would have made the same statement and then fired me if I didn’t comply, even if the next day he was left completely lost.

      3. Cloudshadow*

        He does need me; however, he is also extremely impulsive and has fired people for less than what he would view as disobeying a direct order. I would have to assume he would fire me, insist it was for cause, and deny my unemployment claim, so I would prefer to just line up another job. I have a lot of financial family responsibilities and being out of work for anything other than a very short time would be a hardship, not just for me but for others I support.

        1. valentine*

          You’re in a real bind, since the help you need depends on a job that won’t allow you to access it.

          Assume he’s going to fire you or you’re going to resign. Now what? Between appointments and income, which can you go without the longest? Are there no predawn or night hours available? Any online resources? Maybe ask your primary doctor/GP how they think you should proceed.

          This will be too much at once, but your dependents are a place to chip away because it’s not sustainable and possibly doesn’t serve you. You shouldn’t be stuck with this abusive fiend who won’t let you have a proper break even to eat (and so your compensation isn’t fine because of that, no time off, and now denying your medical benefits) just because other people rely on you. What other resources can they access? Can you contact social services for them?

    15. kestrafalaria*

      File for an ADA accommodation. You are not required under ADA to disclose the nature of your condition. Your employer, no matter how small, should have processes in place for this. If you have ADA approval, your supervisor can’t tell you to not go to your appointments.

      If your company has any kind of disability you might want to look into that. Also, does your state have a version of FMLA?

      NB: I am not a lawyer, you may want to discuss it with one.

      1. valentine*

        The boss can deny the accommodation for whatever reason they demand Cloudshadow be in their chair for 12+ hours without a proper break and fire them for insubordination (like the Reddit bathroom story above). Cloudshadow does not have the time, energy, or money to sue.

    16. Observer*

      Are you exempt? If not, make sure you are clocking ALL your hours. Seriously – your boss is being a major jerk, and asking you to work ridiculous hours. At least make sure you get PAID.

      1. Cloudshadow*

        Yes – definitely exempt, sadly! My compensation is fine – or at least it would be if I could take (paid) leave occasionally.

    17. Autumn Wind*

      What about an on-line or phone therapist in a different time zone? If you’re west coast, maybe an east coast therapist could meet with you at 6 AM your time before work, which would be 9 AM their time. Or if you’re east coast, then vice versa with a west coast therapist.

    18. Jane of all Trades*

      Hi Cloudshadow –
      I’m a bit late to this conversation but maybe you’ll still see it. To be able to function right now, until you find a job that treats you more like you deserve to be treated, can you either ask your therapist if they’d be ok doing remote sessions, via FaceTime or Skype? If that doesn’t work, you could look for a therapist who does do remote sessions. I’m sure there are other resources but if you google psychology today they have a listing of therapists and indicate those who will do remote sessions. I personally use talkspace, because my work set up is similarly crazy to yours, but it is not covered by my insurance. But my therapist, outside of doing talkspace, also does a lot of remote counseling and I have found it to be very helpful. That would allow you to still do a regular session but with much less travel time. Best wishes!

  28. anony-Nora*

    Early last year our company switched us all from hourly to salaried, since it was easier and cheaper than replacing our worn-out time clock. Our boss came around to tell each of us individually about the change, and at the time I asked her what would happen if we had to leave early or come in late for doctor visits or something. At the time, she said it was fine as long as the work gets done.

    Now though, sometimes when certain people ask to leave early/come in late, she’ll tell us we need to make up the missed time. The work is getting done just fine, so it’s not a question of that; I think she’s just trying to exert control. But health problems happen, especially when you’re under a lot of stress, and people need doctor visits.

    We have nothing in writing, and never have. The only copy of the company handbook I’ve ever seen here is decades old, and one of the managers keeps it like a curiosity. Can she make us make up the time? How do I know whether we’re exempt or non-exempt employees, and would that make a difference? Pennsylvania is an at-will state but even so, it doesn’t seem right that they can just change their policies with no warning (and only apply them sometimes, to some people).

    (Really, REALLY hope to get a better job soon)

    1. Mediamaven*

      This doesn’t sound abnormal to be for salaried positions at all. The idea is you work 40 hours or whatever is required for your particular space. Salaried doesn’t mean that you don’t have to work the time.

      1. CupcakeCounter*

        Sometimes it does…
        The point of salary is that they pay you for X amount of work not hours. If the work needs 50 hours to complete, you work the 50. Seasonality sometimes means you have lighter periods so maybe you can get the work done in 35 hours so can flex a late arrival or early departure to catch your kids game. It isn’t “we are paying you for 40 hours so you have to be here 40 hours”

        1. Judy (since 2010)*

          I have not yet, in getting close to 30 years of working in engineering at large and small companies, had a job that allowed that. Salaried has meant 40 or more hours a week everywhere. With defined core hours.

          Summer hours has always meant that we could ignore the core hours on Friday afternoons, so if we’d already worked 40 hours by noon, we could leave.

          1. Natalie*

            And in contrast, I’ve worked multiple places where salaried employees were not required to work a minimum of 40 hours, nor were they even keeping track of their time in such a way that anyone would know how many hours they were working. It’s going to vary quite a bit from employer to employer.

          2. Spreadsheets and Books*

            I’ve been salaried in finance for a few different companies and I’ve never had any kind of hours tracking. At my job, you show up around 9, you leave around 5 or later if there’s still stuff to do, you step out during the day for an appointment or to run an errand as needed, and employees are treated like adults who can manage their own schedules and workloads. How many hours are expected and how they are managed is unique to an employer; there’s no uniform approach to all salaried employees everywhere.

            Summer hours where I work mean you get Fridays/Friday afternoons off in the summer, regardless of what kind of time you put in during that week.

          3. Ethyl*

            If you are billing hours to clients that may be part of it — i.e., there’s no real way to “get the work done” in 35 vs 40 hours because you are billing your clients. That’s how it was when I worked in environmental consulting. Contrast that with working as an event planner, where it was much more “whatever needs to get done this week gets done,” or my spouse in IT which is similar.

            1. Mr. Shark*

              Yes, where I’ve worked, it’s been largely you work your 40 hours. Now, if you have an occasional appointment, you don’t have to make it up, but on a regular basis, you are planning on a 40-hour work week, and no consistent leaving early or anything.
              And yes, even with summer hours, the idea is that we are supposed to complete the 40 hours prior to leaving early on Friday. I have a feeling that is very loosely enforced for the most part, unless managers want to enforce it.
              How is she tracking that you make up the time? It seems like she is saying that, but probably not really taking care to track that one way or the other.

    2. A Simple Narwhal*

      Could you ask her to confirm the policy? “When we switched over to salary, you said that as long as the work gets done we wouldn’t have to worry about leaving for small amounts of time for things like doctors visits. However lately you’ve been asking us to make up the time, even if the work is getting done. Has the policy changed?”

      Something like that, in a breezy hey-just-wanted-to-confirm way, not accusatory or anything. And if you do this in person, 100% follow up in an email (“…to summarize our conversation about making up time…”) so you can refer to it in the future.

      It’s 100% reasonable if you do need to make up the time, but it’s super annoying if she originally told you that you didn’t.

    3. Zephy*

      Who qualifies as salaried/exempt and who is hourly/non-exempt isn’t a thing your boss can decide on a whim because the time clock is broken. There are actual rules about what kinds of positions can be salaried and what kinds must be hourly, they vary by state. There isn’t “making up time” for salaried employees – your pay isn’t tied to hours worked, that’s the point.

      1. Psyche*

        I would look at whether you still get paid overtime if you work over 40 hours. If yes, then it sounds like they are treating you as salaried but non-exempt and they can expect you to make up the time. If you don’t get paid overtime if you work over 40 hours then they are treating you as exempt.

      2. Fortitude Jones*

        There isn’t “making up time” for salaried employees – your pay isn’t tied to hours worked, that’s the point.

        This is really employer specific. I was salaried and exempt at my last company, and we were still asked to make up time if we were out of the office for appointments and such because our grandboss values face time over everything. My previous salaried exempt positions before that didn’t have that expectation.

        1. AcademiaNut*

          Yes – exempt means you aren’t eligible for overtime. Your employer can demand 9-5 butts in seats and require overtime without extra pay, or require you to make up time after normal office hours. From what I understand they can demand unpaid overtime *and* require you to use PTO for doctor’s appointments or errands. But they can’t dock your pay by part of a week.

        2. JulieCanCan*

          Yeah my current boss (new-ish job for me) went into a long explanation about how he’s very laid back about managing people and he’s fair, blah blah blah. Then the next sentence out of his mouth was that if I needed to come in late to go to a doctors appointment, he just asks that I make up the time I missed on the other end of the day (I come in 2 hours late, I stay 2 hours beyond my normal time). I just agreed with him but in my head I was thinking “Huh??” since as an exempt, salaried employee I’ve worked a minimum of 3-4 hours “overtime” every week (3-4 hours beyond the 40 hours I’m being paid but not technically “overtime” since I’m not paid for it and I’m Exempt and salaried) If we add all of those hours up since I started, he’s gotten over 50 “free” hours of work out of me. I’ve worked over a full, 40 hour week week for free since beginning my job 4.5 months ago. Do any of those “free” 50 hours I’ve worked beyond my standard 40 hours weekly count against the 2 hours I needed for a doctors appointment?

          I didn’t (and still don’t) have enough capital at this new job to say any of this to him, but I plan on bringing it up at some point once I’ve been here for a while. There are a lot of great things about my job but this just hit a weird note for me. Also, we worked on 2 federal holidays- our office was open for work (despite there being no reason to be), we don’t do anything that requires daily face-time and we don’t work in the public sector. Literally there was nothing I did in either the of those holiday work days that couldn’t have waited. It was kinda crazy. Again I didn’t have enough capital to gripe – I was brand new at the time these two holidays hit, so I just gritted my teeth and went to work. Never in ny 26+ years working as a professional adult have I worked on either of these two Federal holidays. It was bizarre. I actually thought I misunderstood him when he said we didn’t have the day off because it was so out of sync with any corporate and professional norms I’ve ever experienced.

          I think the issue in my boss’s case is that he’s very smart and has a profitable, growing company, but he doesn’t necessarily manage perfectly

      3. Auntie Social*

        Yes, it has to do with supervising other people, how much managing you do. Obviously everyone at a company is not exempt.

    4. Not Me*

      The FLSA decides what positions are exempt and what positions aren’t, your boss doesn’t get to decide that. You might want to do some research on whether your job duties are exempt or not.

      Regarding changing policies, yes, they absolutely can change policies with no warning. It’s not a great way to do business, but it’s legal. But again, FLSA status isn’t a policy.

  29. That Girl From Quinn's House*

    This week, Slate had a letter to a sex advice columnist asking for advice about a work situation. Their coworker had a previous career in the porn industry, and their other coworkers had found out about it, and were constantly referencing it and watching said videos at work. The columnist advised to give the coworker a head’s up on the situation, but I thought AAM was a better venue for the question. What do you all think?

    https://slate.com/human-interest/2019/05/co-worker-secret-porn-past-advice.html

    1. Grace*

      Replying to read later – I thought the same thing when I saw it over there. Forward it to Alison! Do a collaborative answer! Ger her expertise!

    2. Damn it, Hardison!*

      I read that too. Obviously the cat is out of the bag, but there is no reason for the coworkers to continue be jerks about or be discussing/watching it (WTF?) at work. The coworker who wrote in should shut that stuff down with the other coworkers for sure. I would give the coworker who is being harassed a heads up, and ask if I could bring it up to management that coworkers are watching porn on company time/computers.I don’t think there is any reason that management needs to know that the porn features one of their employees (it shouldn’t matter), so this could be a discrete route, although I wouldn’t put it past the crappy coworkers to use as their defense that other coworker is in the porn. But, I would absolutely wait to get permission from the coworker before bringing it up with management. There is always the chance that management sucks and this would cause more problems, so whether this is a good option is going to depend on the management/culture too.

      1. Darren*

        As a manager if a co-worker tried to justify watching porn during office hours because it contained a co-worker I would be walking them to the front door (as they are now no longer an employee) while reminding them about our sexual harassment/bullying training which makes it MUCH WORSE than if they were just watching general porn.

        1. Quandong*

          yes, me too

          The LW should be documenting what coworkers are up to and going to HR

  30. Interviewed Today*

    Had an internal interview this morning. Hopefully find out soon, they want to fill the spot quickly. I didn’t leave feeling overly great about it, but it wasn’t a bad interview either. Idk? It could go either way.

    1. Seeking Second Childhood*

      Do you mean not overly great about your interest in the position or about your performance in the interview? Or some other option. One positive spin: even if you decide you aren’t interested in the potential transfer – it’s still interview practice!

  31. Attorney With Questions*

    I’m an attorney and have a question for other attorneys:

    What might entice you to move to another state to practice? I am very involved in my state’s bar association, and one issue we see (which many other states see) is a “graying” bar. We’d like to invite and encourage people to come here to practice, but we also recognize there are logistical barriers. We know we can’t offer big city salaries, but there are other things we can offer (generally collegial practice, different pace of life, etc).

    I’d love to hear people’s thoughts, and be able to perhaps lure some good lawyers to my cool state!

    1. The Rain In Spain*

      Reciprocity! I never want to take another bar exam again (I practice in a state that does not offer reciprocity to others, unfortunately). I think the benefits you’ve identified are great draws but I don’t know how people would learn that if they aren’t already interested in moving there?
      For example, my spouse is a doctor and regularly receives ads for positions in harder-to-fill locations (that do, usually, involve a higher salary due to demand) but having never considered moving to state x/knowing anyone there/having visited, we don’t really even look at them as more than just an interesting piece of mail that gets recycled.
      Maybe advertising more for fresh lawyers would work better? Ie making sure jobs are posted on law school sites (not just limited to your geographic area)? Curious to see if others have more useful ideas!

      1. LCH*

        yes, my attorney dad moved states later in life. so he had the time, money, and contacts to follow through on all of the new state’s requirements to be licensed in that state (DE), but it was a huge PITA. it required a clerkship (or something) along with taking and passing the bar all over again after practicing for over 30 yrs. if there had been reciprocity from his state to the new one, that would have been great.

        1. Attorney With Questions*

          I wish there was something that I could do about bar reciprocity.

          We are thinking about how to attract fresh lawyers. It’s hard, though, since so many new grads have mountains of debt, and uncertainty isn’t easy to add to the mix. On the other hand, it’s also a giant pain for someone who’s established to uproot, move, take a new bar, etc. There’s a lot to consider.

          1. MoopySwarpet*

            Are you in any kind of area you could possibly qualify for a new lawyer to receive some student loan forgiveness if they work there for a certain number of years? I have no idea how that works, but have heard rumors of programs for doctors and teachers and such. I suppose since you’re talking about a whole state, there might be areas of your state that could qualify.

    2. Ra94*

      As a just-starting-out attorney, one idea that comes to mind: does your state have any good/decent law schools, and do those schools have strong links with local firms and organizations? I know a lot of my friends chose their laws schools based on career opportunities in that area, and a school renowned for its great work experience ties to local firms would be a big draw.

      1. CTT*

        I’m less than a year removed from the bar so it’s hard to imagine moving and taking it again, but I think showing that you have a robust local and state bar would be helpful. If I’m moving somewhere I don’t have existing contacts, I’m going to be concerned about making friends! So I would look at the state and local bar’s websites to see what sort of events they’re having, how often, and most importantly, what audience they’re targeting – not just in terms of age (although if it’s mostly sit-down dinners and speeches, that will emphasize it’s a graying bar) but also practice area. I do transactional work and it sometimes feel like my local bar doesn’t know that non-litigators exist.

        tl;dr, show people from out of state that if they move, they’ll have a built-in community.

        2. Attorney With Questions*

          This is good feedback that I can take to our bar association. The association has a good website and I’m friendly with our programming/web person (who also is concerned about the aging demographic of our state’s bar) and maybe we can talk about how to make it more visible to people who might want to make a change.

      2. Attorney With Questions*

        We do have some law school/firm links, which certainly helps. It’s also helpful that in my area a lot of lawyers are graduates of the closest law school, which sort of helps to self-perpetuate hiring of attorneys. Maybe it would be good to encourage firms to build relationships with more schools, too, to sort of widen the net.

    3. Koala dreams*

      Are there similar problems for other types of employers and organizations? I sometimes see job fairs and ads that focus on the breadth of jobs available in the area, as well as the general quality of life. If you can cooperate with other employers, schools and maybe the board of toursim you could show candidates that there is also a chance for their spouse to find a job and there are schools for their kids, etc.
      (I’m not working as an attorney or in law)

      1. Attorney With Questions*

        This is also good! Maybe one thing to do would be to partner with other professions to team up on recruiting. Interesting…

    4. CatCat*

      In my view, the biggest barriers are taking the bar and relocating. Why should established lawyers in another state take the time, experience the stress, and spend the money to study for your state’s bar exam and then travel to your state to take the exam? Why should they then expend the resources for a state-to-state move?

      For me, personally, “big city” salaries are unnecessary as long as the salary is a good one for the geographic area and I can still meet my financial goals. But I just shudder at the thought of taking another bar exam and the enormous time investment involved in that. I would have been open to another state while I was in law school, but once I was studying for my state’s bar exam… forget it.

      1. CatCat*

        And I actually did move from one place to another (and then eventually back to my home state), but that was because I was working for the federal government and the federal government accepts ANY bar so I didn’t have to take any additional exams.

    5. Coverage Associate*

      If my tiny religion already had a congregation there.

      More usefully: If I didn’t give up the professional advancement I have earned in my home state. Will these graying partners offer me partnership in 2 years or 7? Will the judges home town me for the next week or 10 years? How easy is it to adapt to your local rules? How important and complicated are judges’ standing orders?

      1. Attorney With Questions*

        These are interesting things to think about. Maybe one idea would be to identify firms that might want to hire (I have no idea how this would work) and somehow incentivize them to advertise widely. and you make a good point about adapting to local practice/custom, etc. I observe that generally our bench and bar are pretty welcoming to everyone. Perhaps that’s something we can try to make more obvious.

    6. Seven hobbits are highly effective, people*

      Can you offer supports for people just starting out? I live in an area with a glut of lawyers, and I know it’s hard for new people to get some kind of practice started here that actually gets enough clients to pay the bills. I’d imagine some of these new-ish grads who are having trouble getting a practice off the ground would be open to moving if the move came with a clear on-ramp to getting their practice established. (Bar reciprocity would be a huge help, obviously, but also things like offering mentoring and networking opportunities, maybe even law-specific co-working spaces so they’re not tasking on the risk and expense of trying to open their own office while just starting out.)

      1. Attorney With Questions*

        I wish I could fix bar reciprocity. Alas. But with the UBE, I believe the scores are transferrable for a few years (I’m enough of a dinosaur that I hand-wrote my bar answers, so I’m not 100% sure how the UBE works). I like your ideas about networking, mentoring, and co-working spaces. That would require participation by other attorneys at large, but I’d imagine in some communities something like that could work.

        I also know there are a few states that have practice-launching programs (there’s a neat one in South Dakota to help get lawyers into rural communities). My state has something like that, too, although I don’t know if people have moved here specifically for that.

    7. Bar*

      Highly recommend posing this question on Corporette. The significant majority of their readership is lawyers.

      1. Attorney With Questions*

        Good tip. I don’t usually read Corporette but I’ll check it out!

    8. Federal Middle Manager*

      Here are some ideas:
      – Bar association sponsored / low cost malpractice insurance.
      – Bar association sponsored job posting and help matching seekers with firms/associations in their field areas (honestly, “collegial practice” and “different pace of life” scream “you must know somebody to get a job here” to me, so help overcoming that).
      – Low/no cost sponsorships to area networking events. Tons of lawyer networking happens at political and nonprofit fundraisers that are cost prohibitive to new grads with debt. Could the bar association buy a table at the local zoo gala and give the tickets out at a reduced cost to new/new-to-area lawyers?
      – Bar association sponsored transition planning for the graying bar. Talk to your current members about the importance of giving new people opportunities, how to plan to sell their practice, etc. rather than letting them shrivel up and fade away over time.

      1. Attorney With Questions*

        “Collegial” was the best word I could come up with for “far less soul-sucking than big city practice and we treat each other like human beings.” Hm. Maybe we should just say that.

        2. Auntie Social*

          Can you get older attorneys to mentor a younger one? Not take on as an associate, but mentor them. I know I came from a slow, polite southern state. . . to California. I would have liked knowing that you have to confirm every casual conversation at the courthouse in writing, because that wasn’t necessary in my old state. Every state practices differently. Maybe one-on-one mentoring, maybe a one day class of “how to find the courthouse and what to do when you get there”. Mentoring with some experienced litigators and a copy of the local rules would be a nice welcome.

    9. Anon with law degree but not practicing*

      Some things to consider:
      * So many women leave legal practice. What can you do to make your environment friendly for women lawyers who might otherwise give up? “Collegial” sounds more like “good old boys” to me.
      * Does your city/state have good educational opportunities for the children of lawyers who might move there?
      * You aren’t going to compete with candidates who get top NYC law firm offers. What are you doing to go after less traditional candidates?
      * What is the political environment of your state? Many people are ruling out states like Alabama, for example, at the moment.
      * Can you offer summer positions to law school students who might have a connection to the area, and thus might be willing to return?

    10. Hello!*

      I live in Wisconsin so you don’t have to pass the Bar exam in order to practice in the state! I believe that we are one of only two states (maybe Washington?) that don’t require Bar exams.

  32. Free Meerkats*

    At a workshop Wednesday through today. Close enough that I can’t get hotel paid for, but far enough that it wasn’t worth driving back and forth every morning. So I got to pay for my own hotel.

    But it’s worth it to me, I learned things to put us ahead of the curve.

    1. pharmacat*

      I did exactly the same this week. It was a 3 day workshop, so I did the long drive one day. then paid personally for a hotel the other night.

  33. NicoleK*

    My employer employs about 800 people. I’ve been here for 2 1/2 years and am interested in doing something different. My current position is pretty silo and hasn’t given me much opportunities to network with colleagues in other departments or learn about positions in other departments. I’m looking for tips and suggestions on how to successfully navigate moving departments. Is it okay to reach out to colleagues (you’ve never met) for informational interviews? Do you reach out to the hiring manager (you’ve never met) when a position you’re interested in becomes available? I know a lot of this is dependent on the company and culture, but I’d like to hear about what has worked for people. TIA

    1. HappySnoopy*

      Is there any interdepartment committees or open to anyone internal training you could do? Thinking of this primarily as forays into networking rather than “cold calling” colleagues, but could also have a secondary effect of letting you see, learn the types of issues and skills needed in other areas and even how to traslate it from your current position.

    2. Candida*

      Absolutely reach out to your colleagues! People love to talk about themselves. I get these requests often from new-ish employees or interns at my org (500ish people) and usually try to make the time. If you’re contacting someone that you truly don’t know, I might not position it as an informational interview – more that you’re curious about other parts of the company and want to learn more about what they do/their department does. If possible, offer to take them out for coffee – most people will say it’s not necessary but it’s nice to offer something in exchange for their time. (And don’t take it personally if some folks don’t respond, or take a while in responding. Different people, different priorities.)

      1. JJ*

        “If you’re contacting someone that you truly don’t know, I might not position it as an informational interview – more that you’re curious about other parts of the company and want to learn more about what they do/their department does.“

        See, this would annoy me. Personally if you just want to know about my department I can do it on work time. If it is because you’re interested in a job, that’s not work for me. I’m happy to do both but I need to know what I’m agreeing to and choose for myself.

  34. Birch*

    Lunch woes. I’m currently in a tiny office working elbow to elbow with two other people, and currently really regretting not requesting a “no hot lunch” policy for eating at our desks when the others first arrived. Even with the window open, the office smells like hot lunch every single day from noon on, and it’s always the exact same thing, which is good in some ways, and it’s not a BAD smell or anything, but I’m also rapidly approaching BEC stage with one person who always brings hot lunch (the other usually has a sandwich or something). This person also cracks open the lunch box again at 4pm everyday, so it’s pretty much all afternoon, every day. We don’t really have a designated eating area, so most people eat in their offices. I feel like I can’t say anything now because it would be clearly targeting one officemate, I can’t join them because honestly the smell in that tiny room and all the eating sounds cut through headphones and put me off, plus I’d look like a hypocrite if I mention later that it bothers me. So now I’m avoiding the office a lot of the time, but there’s only so much work I can do mobile and I do need to be around. When I have to, I try to have my own lunch on a bench outside while the others are eating, and then eat a lot of strong mints for the rest of the day to try to numb my sense of smell, or work my schedule around avoiding that officemate, which is not really effective. That officemate is leaving at some point for an extended work travel in another team, so I’m looking forward to that. Not really sure what I’m looking for… advice? Commiseration?

    1. Ra94*

      Oof I really commiserate, both as someone who hates food smells that stick around, and who brings a hot lunch every single day. This is only an occasional solution, but could you invite office mate out to lunch- either to your bench if the weather is nice, or to a lunch out? It might help in terms of getting to know her (reducing BEC feelings) and would keep your office smell-free, without singling anyone out.

      1. Birch*

        Yeah, I realize this is entirely on me, and I’m kicking myself because when she started she even asked if I had a preference for lunch. I just didn’t realize at that point that not voicing my opinion would mean hot lunch 2x every single day. We did have a period of time to get to know each other before the 3rd arrived, and the problem is….. I honestly don’t want to spend more time with her. She’s totally nice, we just don’t jive, and there were a few occasions when she just started that we had issues because she ignored some stuff that I told her and made decisions that created problems for me that should not have been problems, so the BEC vibe started pretty early. There is a common room in the building, but I know it’s not always available and is kind of in the middle of things, and I did suggest it when she started but couldn’t say definitely whether people use it regularly for lunch. I was thinking about starting to invite both officemates there for lunch, but then again it’s about how much time I want to spend working up to “hey can we make this the official lunch room instead of the office,” plus the fact that I really want to just eat my own lunch alone!

        1. Ra94*

          I feel your pain, but I suspect you may end up having to choose between eating lunch alone and having a nice-smelling office. It sucks, but there’s really no polite way you can suggest the coworker eats elsewhere without the context of an invite to join you.

          1. valentine*

            there’s really no polite way you can suggest the coworker eats elsewhere
            Of course there is. The worst-case scenario is the coworker never leaves or, when they come back, Birch feels like this mountain has grown exponentially insurmountable. But, unless she is leaving tomorrow, it’s not too late.

            Birch: Llewellen, it turns out the smell of your lunch really carries.
            Llewellen: You said it was fine to eat here. Why don’t you pick on Trinity?
            Birch: I’m just as surprised as you are. Would you mind not eating hot food in here?
            Llewellen: There’s no place else to go because reasons.
            Birch: I can think of a couple of places where you can eat, but I can only do so much work elsewhere. Can we agree that you won’t eat hot food in here going forward?

            It’s not on you to sort alternatives and she can eat wherever she can fit a chair, but be ready to suggest the common room (she could have asked around about it; it’s not on you to have researched), a bench far away from yours, and other places you may have seen.

            If you can, smear some lip balm under your nose and keep a scented cloth to hand to breathe in every so often. A fan might intensify the awful, but I might try scenting the blades and hanging a baby wipe in front of it so that smell comes to me, too.

    2. Lucette Kensack*

      I think you need to reframe this in your mind — maybe that will help with your frustration.

      The problem here is that your employer isn’t providing a place to eat lunch (other than your desk). Your coworker’s lunch choices are not a problem. She’s allowed to eat whatever she wants for lunch.

    3. Seeking Second Childhood*

      Of course you can say something — and since it’s just one person who’s eating lunch, it can be a casual request just to that person. Use a variation on Alison’s “this is just something weird about me” script: I’d suggest something like “I never realized it until three of us were in a small room together, but apparently strong smells distract me from work. I’ve tried to find workarounds but I’m still distracted. Would you be willing to eat your lunch outside now that it’s warm enough?”

    4. Bananatiel*

      So for like five years I sat in the first cube nearest the microwave in my old job. What an honor and privilege lol. It was just a constant carousel of smells from like 10:30-3, with a brief break from 3-4, and then it restarted at 4 because 10:30 lunch guy ate dinner at 4. So I get it! Is the smell really lingering that long? Even the fish eaters and other-VERY-strong-smelling-food eaters in my office wouldn’t leave an hours-long smell and I was in a pretty small space. Maybe there’s honestly an issue with the circulation in the building that can be addressed because that seems crazy to me.

      What strikes me as interesting too is you say the smell isn’t bad but you’re also at BEC stage with the hot lunch person– is there ANYTHING else going on with that person that you might need to address? Either with them at work or maybe they’re just not your favorite type of person?

      If not and it’s really just that you don’t like the food smell in the afternoon– I think it’d be reasonable to wait like a half hour after they’re done eating and ask if you can spray an air freshener for the lingering smell. And maybe that just becomes part of the afternoon routine so that you can actually work at your desk. I’d take care to swear up and down that it’s not the food itself, it’s just that the *lingering* aspect bothers you. Blame it on poor ventilation, whatever!

    5. WellRed*

      I commiserate (more on the eating sounds), but I don’t know why it’s so surprising that someone would want to eat a hot lunch every day. There’s also no guarantee a cold sandwich also won’t smell. Is there something else going on here?

    6. LCL*

      What you might push for is a no eating at the desk policy. Cold lunches can be just as stinky. My personal preference is hot lunch 100% of the time. Cold sandwich or other cold lunches are hardship food, eaten when poor or out in the wilderness. I’m telling you my preferences to give you an idea of how strongly partisan the hot lunch crowd will be.

    7. Need a better name, CPA*

      Is she putting lunch refuse in the office paper basket? I ask because that could make the smell linger, or even get worse, all afternoon.
      Of course, with no designated break room, I don’t know where to suggest she throw it away instead.
      As a CPA and a consultant, I worked at a lot of different company locations. In 45 years, I only recall one that didn’t have a place for employees to eat lunch.

  35. Moray*

    What do you do when your position was a mistake? I’m in a newly created role with a very specific (and, it’s apparent, impossible and kind of unwanted) goal, and it’s pretty clear they shouldn’t have created it without a lot more structure in place. The powers that be are notoriously fickle and impulsive and the idea of the position was a shiny new toy that they’re already disinterested in, which means I’m not going to get the buy-in I need to accomplish anything. When I leave, I seriously doubt I will be replaced. How do I tamp down the frustration until I get out?

    1. Crylo Ren*

      I’m afraid I don’t have any real advice here, but I’m in a similar situation. I’m spending my time taking courses in something else that matters to me and will hopefully give me skills that I can leverage elsewhere when I can move on. This helps distract me from how terrible I feel about my current job, because at least I’m still improving myself and doing what I can to make sure that I’m in a good place skills- and knowledge-wise when I do get the chance to leave.

      1. Moray*

        That’s a good idea. I’ve been doing a lot of reading on job-hunting best practices, but I’ll start looking for educational or skill-building stuff as well.

    2. Fortitude Jones*

      That sucks so hard. I think you should do what Chrylo is doing and take courses in something that interests you until you can leave.

  36. Karen from Finance*

    I think our new admin is a psycho – and I’m honestly sorry for the problematic term, I just can’t find a better one.

    On her first week, she has already talked multiple times about how she enjoys hurting animals.

    CW/TW: I’m going to describe what she said, it’s not nice.

    The first time, it was after I mentioned that I have 4 pets and another lady mentioned her husband is a dog trainer. New girl started talking about how she likes to throw shampoo in the eyes of her brother’s dog when her brother’s not looking. The second time it was after I aww’ed at a dog at the street and she suggested she’d like to make it go crack (?!?!). The third time was shortly after that, when she started talking about it again, saying it’s not that she doesn’t like animals, she likes … to hurt them…. and I had to flat-out tell her “stop telling me about it” to get her to stop.

    I’m a bit scared. We don’t even have anyone decent to report her to because this company is insane on several levels.

    (Also, not scary but annoying af, she keeps asking everyone if we have kids and for those of us who don’t have any, she goes “… yet ;)”. And keeps. At it. Lady won’t catch a hint.)

    1. ghostwriter*

      Oh jesus. I think being really direct is the only option here if you don’t have an HR or boss to turn to… maybe something like…

      “Hey Cersei, it really upsets me when you talk about harming animals like you just did. I don’t know if you realize, but you talk about this subject frequently, and I need you to stop. It is frightening and creates a toxic work environment that could cause you or the company issues in the future. I know this sounds rude, but I’ve tried to hint at this previously and you keep bringing this up.”

      1. Cascadian*

        I wouldn’t say it’s upsetting, because she probably enjoys upsetting people. I’d probably ask if she’s practicing to be a serial killer and if that has anything to do with her interest in other people’s children. Maybe ask if she’s been contacted as a person of interest in relevant crimes.
        But that’s just me.

        1. AnnieK*

          I think you’re right that “upsetting” wouldn’t work, but I don’t think dark sarcasm will land right here either. If she thinks she’s being edgy and funny, she’d see your retort as edgy/funny right back and not realize you’re asking her to stop. If, god forbid, she isn’t trying to be funny but is, like, ACTUALLY, a proto-serial killer–that’s not something to joke at.

          I’d do a combination of reporting it up–as people say below, it’s disturbing enough that even an office of bees would probably be horrified, and giving her a flat look/no reaction/possibly a “Please stop saying that. It’s not appropriate in an office environment.”

        2. SignalLost*

          I mean, yeah, I don’t think engaging with how it affects you emotionally is going to reach someone so far out of touch that they joke about (and apparently do) hurting animals. I would tip HR a heads up so they have context, and then I would do exactly what you’ve suggested in your comment, with total dispassion, sort of “the sky is blue, the grass is green, you’re totally a serial killer in practice, the TPS reports are due today” sort of thing.

    2. Holly*

      YIKES!! That’s terrible. I know you say your company is insane, but I still recommend you document and let someone in HR or management know even if they don’t do anything about it for your own protection.

      1. Moray*

        Seconding, It’s probably worth reporting–even the most ineffective managers can be animal lovers, and that might be enough to get them off their asses even when caring about their actual employees wouldn’t.

    3. Lalala*

      …that’s disturbing AF.

      Stuff like this makes me wish there was some kind of way to warn animal shelters/law enforcement about people like this, because enjoying hurting animals is both horrifying and often a precursor to serial killing.

    4. lawschoolmorelikeblawschool*

      Wow, maybe your descriptor is accurate . . . this is insane and I personally couldn’t stomach working with someone who says things like that. I would straight up call the police if she mentions a specific incident in the future, honestly. Jeez. Can’t believe someone would think these things, let alone say it outloud to someone!?

      1. Karen from Finance*

        That’s the part that’s… well, insane. Is she that far removed that she not only thinks and does these things, but she actually thinks it’s okay to go through life talking about it? Has she never met a human before? She actually seems to find it kind of amusing… ?!?

        How does someone like this get hired??!

    5. Asenath*

      For the animals – say directly and briefly – “Don’t talk to me about things like that”. Include “disgusting’ if you like, and repeat forever, if needed – she doesn’t sound like she takes hints – being short and crystal-clear each time. For the babies, since she’s done this already – “You already asked that” following immediately by something work-related.

    7. irene adler*

      I cannot imagine any circumstance where one would welcome talk about hurting animals. She’s got to have a screw loose in her head to think that is considered polite, work conversation.

      Please document-as others have advised. Let HR know situation.

      Had a next door neighbor who was a little “off”. After I’d adopted two small dogs, I’d found that they were a bit trying as they liked to get up about half a dozen times throughout the night. So when neighbor asked me about how I liked having the dogs, I said that they were exhausting me.

      His response,” Too bad you just can’t kill them if they are giving you trouble.”

      What kind of response is that?

      From that day forward, I always accompanied them when they were in the back yard. Wasn’t sure if neighbor would try something or what. I don’t think he ever did. But better safe than sorry.

      1. TheRedCoat*

        Had a similar problem with my neighbors! I have two big dogs, and when we first moved in they had a tendency to bolt (which hadn’t ever been a problem before). One day, when I was dragging one of my boys back to the house, she stuck her head out of the door to say “I hope he doesn’t get hit by a car! :)” It’s… hard to describe the tone. Sarcasti-happy?

        I immediately stopped hiring her husband for yard work (which sucked, because he was really good and very thorough), and even now that our yard is fenced I don’t let them out unsupervised.

    8. Ra94*

      Uhhh you appear to be working with Villanelle from Killing Eve, which doesn’t often end well for anyone. I don’t really have any work-related advice because you say your company is insane, but as for general ‘maybe is a psychopath advice’- don’t challenge her. Be very boring to her. Don’t trust her, don’t leave your stuff around her, and don’t be alone with her. And document the crazy shit she says in emails to yourself in case the police ever comes knocking (kidding, but only partly?!)

    9. TheRedCoat*

      I once read an article about how there are very few things that most people agree on, and “not hurting animals” is kinda one of them. I’d float it up to HR anyway. Even a weird and toxic company is probably populated by animal lovers.

    10. Seeking Second Childhood*

      I think the phrase you’re looking for is “possible sociopath”. Because seriously that’s potentially criminal behavior.
      Who hired her and who does she report to? THAT is the person to discuss this with. It’s definitely something to warn them to watch out about — enjoying hurting animals is not normal.

      1. Karen from Finance*

        My colleague hired her but he’s out on vacation for the next 2 weeks. And I don’t trust him in general, on grounds that everything works much better without him than with him.

        I might bring this up with my boss but I need to be very careful with my wording. If I’m too serious I’ll be treated like I’m the hostile one, or like I’m exaggerating. Because again, this place is insane.

        1. LCL*

          At most places, saying you are scared of a coworker usually gets some response from management. For specific instances of animal cruelty, either call the law or your local animal protection group.

        2. Natalie*

          Can you just relay her exact words to you boss? It doesn’t require that much explanation as to why you’d find that disturbing.

        3. MMB*

          Definitely document these conversations and if you are comfortable doing so please contact Animal Control in the area where you live and report the abuse of her brother’s dog. This can oftentimes be done anonymously. Throwing shampoo in the dog’s eyes is a legitimate form of animal cruelty that they can take action on and investigate. This serves multiple purposes. First, it helps protect the dog. Second, it puts her on their radar and gets her name in the system in case of future incidents. Tell them EVERYTHING you’ve told us. This type of behavior is typically a precursor of more serious problems and violent behavior. I wish I could offer more constructive help on the work aspect, distance yourself as much as possible.

    11. The Man, Becky Lynch*

      This is literally a sign of psychopathy. Holy crap.

      I would fire someone for this kind of thing. They move from animals to humans over time, this shows lack of empathy and emotion. It’s one thing to be all “Eh not an animal person” and “Oh I like the PAIN of animals.” Next she’ll tell you about how she poisoned her brother’s dog or something. This is escalating!

      I would honestly just find a way to fire her and get her away from you so you don’t have to deal with that nonsense. I wouldn’t play nice, there’s nobody there that cares, what are they going to do, fire you for telling her to shut her GD piehole? Probably not.

      1. Karen from Finance*

        I wouldn’t play nice, there’s nobody there that cares, what are they going to do, fire you for telling her to shut her GD piehole? Probably not.

        Well, this is very true. Huh.

    12. Karen from Finance*

      So my work friend who is in charge of training her is really mad at her because New Girl keeps hugging her, and WorkFriend is reeeally not the touchy type. She’s not ok with being hugged after you haven’t seen her for a while, not when she’s crying over her ex husband being a jerk, not when she’s just done you a huge favor, just not. But New Girl keeps overstepping her personal boundaries.

      They also had a conversation that went like this:
      NG: so are you my boss?
      WF: no, James is, but he’s on vacation
      NG: oh so when he’s not here you’re my boss
      WF: no
      NG: why don’t you want to be my boss?

      This is all her FIRST WEEK FFS.

      I’ve come to the conclusion she enjoys making people uncomfortable, so I’m doing my best to react at her with a raised eyebrow and not show how creepy I find her. Because the truth is also that I don’t think she’s smart enough to be an actual danger and I’m already job hunting.

      But still.

      1. valentine*

        This came up last week. Someone’s coworker enjoys grossing people out and showed everyone a pornographic video. Some of the advice there might work for you. Also, the letter where the coworker showed OP some horrifically violent video.

        1. Karen from Finance*

          Thank you, I’ll check it out again. I never thought I’d end up relating to some of our weirder letters but here we are.

  37. La la laaaa*

    Very small work issue — I’m being sent to a conference for work in big US city where my sister (and half my friends) happen to live. This is my first full-time position, and my first time being sent for work travel. I’m planning to extend the trip by a few days, work from there (I work remotely), and spent some time with friends/family. My managers are fine with this. The plan was to train up the evening before the conference, stay in a hotel that night, go to conference all day, and then either train home or stay with my sister for the rest of the week.

    However, when I clarified the plan, my manager asked if I can just stay with my sister the night before the conference as well. Is this strange? He wasn’t pushy about it at all, and I feel like I could easily say no, but the whole thing feels a bit weird. I’m the youngest person at the company, and I feel like I wouldn’t be asked to essentially sleep on my sister’s couch for a work trip if I were older/more distinguished.

    So what should I say? It would be fine for me to stay at sister’s, honestly, but I feel like refusing on principle. On the one hand, it would be mildly inconvenient: she is younger than me, lives with roommates, doesn’t have a spare room, and lives about 25-30 min commute from the conference. But on the other, I am genuinely quite young and hardy — I’d surely be fine and well-rested sleeping on a couch and was planning to do so the rest of the week anyway. I can’t tell if I’m mildly annoyed because of the actual inconvenience/principle of the thing, or if I’m just being bratty because I was just excited to stay in a hotel for a night.

    1. TCO*

      I think it’s fine to say that you’d like to stay in a hotel the night before the conference as is your company’s custom, because staying in the hotel will help you be better-rested for work and closer to the conference. It’s kind of unusual, especially if you’re working for a for-profit, to be asked to cut costs by staying with family members for work travel. It’s not bratty at all to want the basic comforts that make work travel more comfortable and productive.

      1. valentine*

        Did you explain you’d be on a couch? It’s fine to say no, thanks. Start as you mean to go on and maybe give fewer details next time (unless you have to explain where you’ll be working from).

    2. Elizabeth West*

      I would really insist on the hotel, especially if it’s in or near the conference area. I honestly don’t think that you would get the level of rest you need in order to be on top of your game if you sleep on your sister’s sofa. (You don’t have to furnish any details about her living situation.) Conferences are exhausting. Plus, the hotel is right there; it’s silly to stay thirty minutes away.

      I realize your manager might want to save money, but this is part of the cost of doing business.

    3. A Simple Narwhal*

      I agree with TCO.

      Perhaps they’re under the impression that your sister’s place is closer to the conference than it is. If you get push back, you could clarify that while she is close enough to visit after the conference, she’s not actually close enough that you would feel comfortable commuting from it the morning of.

    4. Asenath*

      It’s far better to stay in the hotel – you’re right on site for the morning meetings and you don’t have to worry about the commute. It’s quite reasonable to expect your boss to pay for it, too. I often combined conferences with family visits, and the conference nights were always at the conference hotel, even when I stayed with family before or afterwards.

    5. Zephy*

      If you hadn’t mentioned that your sister lives in that area, they wouldn’t have asked you to couch-surf. So, no, insist on the hotel.

    6. Rusty Shackelford*

      I don’t think you’re being bratty. Presumably you would have spent the night in a hotel before the conference whether or not you were staying with your sister *after* the conference, so it’s not like this is “making up” for anything. I’d tell him that because of the distance from her place to the conference room, it’s not doable.

    7. learnedthehardway*

      I’d just say that you can’t as your sister has other plans. Which is technically true – your sister has NO plans to have you stay with her before the conference. Therefore, she has other plans than having you stay with her.

      I would also point out that her location is very far away from the conference facility and that it would be extremely difficult to get to the conference in the mornings.

    8. Southern Yankee*

      Yes, it’s strange and I would definitely say no. Here is how I would look at it: if I did not have a relative in this city and I was going to this conference for job, would they pay for a hotel so I could be there for 8 am or whatever conference start time is. If the answer is yes, then the fact that you could stay for free somewhere is completely irrelevant. In fact, I would limit information provided in these situations to what is necessary i.e. “I would like to work remotely on Friday so I can stay in location over the weekend for fun, of course at my own expense, does that work?” In the example, since you aren’t sharing that you have free accommodations in that city, your boss wouldn’t dream of asking you to pay for conference night at hotel rather than the company.

    9. Public Health Nerd*

      Yeah, it’ll hurt others in the same boat at your org if you stay with your sister the night before too. I would just say that it won’t work for you and leave out the details.

    10. Middle Manager*

      I’ve stayed in a hotel in a city where I have family. Generally speaking I need a private place to prep for the meeting/conference and it also really helps to not have to navigate to the conference, just head down the elevator. I don’t think it’s unreasonable. I’m sure it’s somewhat industry dependent though, I’m specifically thinking of shoe-string non profits that might really need to stretch every dollar, but I think in most business settings, it’s an entirely normal request to get a hotel.

    11. CupcakeCounter*

      Agree with the other comments – tell your boss that, unfortunately, staying with your sister the night before the conference won’t work. If he asks why, say that while she lives closer to the conference than where you live, it is still quite far (no need to be specific) from the venue.

    12. Green Goose*

      I work at a non-profit and I think managers ask stuff like this a lot (they even make all of our VPs squish into airbnbs together on work trips), just say it doesn’t work for the conference night.

    13. Auntie Social*

      It’s probably just me–but I don’t think they’d ask a male employee to crash on his sister’s sofa.

    14. JulieCanCan*

      Definitely insist on a hotel room – I don’t understand why your boss would think it’s ok to even ask you to stay at your sister’s place, especially when it’s not conveniently located to the conference area.

      You’re not doing anything wrong by correcting the mistake – just say you need a bed and to be rested and at your sister’s there’s no extra bed.

  38. Seven If You Count Bad John*

    Does anyone have any “fun” icebreaker activities that are actually fun & effective? I am an inveterate hater of icebreakers (let’s just Get to Work Already!) and my manager has a weird way of defeating their purpose when we do them (it’s hard to describe, but you end up feeling like you just took a standardized test that you’ll never be told the results of).

    Anyone out there have really good activities? Paper/email based is fine.

    1. Birch*

      You could ask what people’s hobbies are, and that might also get people with similar hobbies or aspirations to that hobby to ask each other about it! And people love talking about their hobbies.

      1. Elizabeth West*

        I would like this one. It’s the only one I think I would like. I hate getting-to-know-you shit or icebreaker shit or any of that shit.

        1. Seven If You Count Bad John*

          I hate them too. I don’t want you to get to know me! I spend a lot of energy maintaining the facade of a functional adult who understands pants! Don’t poke it!!

          1. Elizabeth West*

            LOL!
            I just hate them because they’re stupidly forced and I don’t care. If I want to get to know someone, I’ll do that on my own.

      2. WellRed*

        I loathe being asked about hobbies. I don’t knit, collect stamps or birdwatch, which is what the word “hobbies” makes me think of.

    2. Never have I ever*

      Never Have I Ever. We did this at a staff retreat. Some examples are

      – never have I ever jumped out of an airplane/gone ziplining, got a tattoo, etc (those who have raised their hands).

      It turns out the only person, in my office, who’s never driven a race car on a race track. And those who have didn’t do it together as a group activity – completely unrelated to another. I guess I need to catch up.

      1. Gumby*

        Did you play with the shots too?

        I actually think this could get too personal for a work-related event, but possibly I think that because I have only really seen this as a drinking game.

    3. Detective Amy Santiago*

      The only ones I have ever enjoyed are 2 Truths and a Lie, but only when I’m given warning to prepare and don’t have to come up with things on the spot.

      Alternately, people bingo is good. You make a card with different things like “speaks French” or “Went to Greece” or “born in a foreign country” or whatever and it forces people to mingle and chat to try and mark off boxes on their card.

      1. A Simple Narwhal*

        I was also going to suggest 2 Truths and a Lie, though only if it’s a relatively small group. Doing that with 20 people sounds exhausting!

        And yes definitely give people a heads up if you can. I know there’s been times when I’m trying to come up with mine and I end up tuning out what others are saying, which admittedly defeats the purpose.

      2. Lena Clare*

        Yes, we have done this too and it was a nice activity to get to know people better.

        Also the never have I ever… one.

        Also, one thing I am really good at that you would never know is…

      3. Snarktini*

        Definitely give notice! Also, consider providing some guidelines or norms for your group. I’ve always avoided 2 Truths because I don’t understand how to play. What qualifies as a lie? How tricky / outlandish / realistic is it supposed to be? If it’s basically true but I change one detail, does that qualify as a Lie? I realize this sounds super pedantic, but honestly it confuses me and when I’m already uncomfortable I fall into over-analysis.

        1. A Simple Narwhal*

          Ha I totally get the tendency to over-analyze under stress, and I agree that you should lay out some guidelines on things. My thought is to keep in mind that this should be fun, and unless you’re Captain Holt, pedantic differences aren’t typically really fun. Example:

          Pedantic non-fun lies:
          I’ve been to Disney 10 times (I’ve actually been 11)
          I can run a 7 minute mile (It’s actually closer to 7:15)
          I can recite pi to 96 places (I can only recite it to 95)

          I guess pretty much any time you the lie relies on you having to say “actually” or “only” isn’t super fun. But then again that’s just me!

      4. HappySnoopy*

        Ive done people bingo one. Its great.

        Or a variation of it. The coordinator asks 3 facts from each attendee before hand. Then, its kind of a person scavenger hunt. find the person who has been to antarctica. Find 2 people with iguana pets. Etc

    4. Delta Delta*

      I teach university classes as part of my work – usually my classes are between 10-14 students. I like to do an icebreaker on the first day where I randomly draw questions out of a hat and ask the question to a particular student. But – the questions aren’t your usual “where are you from” kinds of questions. They’re more creative, like “if you were a baseball player, what would be your ‘walk to the plate’ song?” or “if you just inherited a yacht, what would you name it?” or “tell us about your best ever celebrity sighting” I find these often will generate conversation between people in the group (especially the celebrity sighting – you never know who people have met!), but can still be kept fairly short in duration.

    5. Moray*

      I play a game where employees take turns grilling each other, but only about unimportant things. So you can play intense, but it’s low-stakes stuff like “do raising belong in cookies?” and “pencils: mechanical or lead?”

      1. Birch*

        Oh I like this a lot! Especially since it’s in pairs, not all a huge group, and doesn’t really require coming up with anything creative or interesting.

    6. Lena Clare*

      I hate ice breakers but we actually did a fun one a few months back.
      Take unusual words (e.g. scurryfunge) on separate cards, and their meanings (e.g. hurriedly run around your house tidying it before you have visitors) on other cards then get people to match them up.

    7. LivingTheCubeLife*

      For our new group of incoming summer interns we will play Two Truths and a Lie. This has gone over well in years past. It is a fun way to get to know random facts about the group and it sparks creativity (in coming up with the lie) and laughter.

    8. Interplanet Janet*

      At a retreat I went to once, they had us get in small groups and go around and each say (fill in the blanks): “I’d really like to _____, but I can’t because ___.” The point of the exercise was one part get to know each other and two parts realizing that when you do this in a small group, it’s freakish how very often someone in the group has a connection to help you get to do the thing you want and/or a way around the “I can’t” part. After the activity was over, they encouraged us to exchange contact info so we could help each other out.

    9. Zephy*

      If your group is able to stand and walk around, The Great Wind Blows is a more dynamic variation on Never Have I Ever. Same idea (find non-work-related things in common with one another), but it gets people up and moving and having fun.

      Basic setup is a Musical Chairs-style odd-man-out game. Participants stand in a circle shoulder-to-shoulder, one person in the center. Many variations have participants remove shoes, for safety and to mark places in the circle. Center person calls out a trait/experience/fact that applies to them, in the format “The Great Wind blows if you ____”; everyone for whom ____ also applies must move to another place in the circle. You must move at least two spaces – no trading spots with the person next to you. The goal is for the center person to find a spot and leave someone else in the center to call the next round. The calls don’t have to be particularly exotic or personal; “TGWB if you’re wearing blue” is just as valid (and a good way to start things off) as “TGWB if you’ve been to Germany,” or “TGWB if you’re married,” or “TGWB if you have a tattoo.”

    10. CRR*

      Without saying the category, what are your top 3? This can be good for a small group with a little advance notice. Person comes up with their top 3 and then the rest of the group guesses what the category is.

    11. Syfygeek*

      Best one I ever did had employees send the organizer some little known fact about them. These were put on index cards and people tried to figure out who matched the cards.

      It turned out that my boss, the only female VP in the company, used to race dirt bikes when she was young.

    12. Ra94*

      I had this ice breaker as at the start of a full-day interview at a big company, and it was great for breaking the tension. HR broke the candidates (20ish people) into 2 teams, and gave each team a roll of tin foil and told them to create a particular object/animal in 10 minutes. It worked because it was obviously not assessed and there was no way to do it ‘well’, so a lot of laughter over goofy, deformed sculptures resulted, while forcing people to work together. However, I think this would only work for a role where actual design/artistic talent was very unnecessary.

    13. CupcakeCounter*

      We had to do something like that when we had a small department join ours. We went around the room and introduced ourselves, gave a brief rundown of what we do at the company, and then a small bit about our outside lives.
      For example…
      I’m Sami and I and the lead FP&A Analyst so I do a lot of the budget, forecasting, and monthly financial reporting. Outside of work I have 3 kids and love attending concerts.

    14. Ali G*

      We recently did one that went over well.
      There was a pre-printed sheet with things like:
      Find someone from North Carolina
      Talk to someone who has traveled out of the country in the last year
      Find someone that prefers mountains over the beach
      So the goal was you had to introduce yourself and talk to people and find out things about them to fill in the sheet. It worked well!

      1. Zephy*

        Did the organizers reach out to the participants beforehand to collect these tidbits, or did they just make the list up in an effort to start conversations between people?

    15. Middle School Teacher*

      The best one I ever did involved everyone getting a penny, and we had to look at the year and talk about something that happened that year. There were answers like that’s the year I got married, that’s when I graduated from high school etc. Very low-stakes and people can share as much or as little as they choose.

  39. Manipulated Mango*

    When your boss or immediate superior manipulates you or a good case of triangulation. What did you do?

    Clash of the Directors Part Deux

    The executive and fundraising directors are new while our program director has three years under her belt. The problem? The two new directors were not working with programs director, to learn more about services and not including her on leadership decisions. It’s as if because they are new they unconsciously? aligned together against the existing staff? Like ‘together we’ll fix it all. You just do what we say.’

    For example the fundraising director was making decisions on where grant funding would be allocated, but never talked to the program director to learn the programs or delivery models. This, and more, was creating a wedge between the directors.

    It came to a head when the fundraising director continuously asked my opinion on topics that were not appropriate for my role (I serve both programs and fundraising). She did this because of my previous nonprofit experience, she felt that we thought similarly and because everyone else’s thinking was so different she needed an ally.

    I told her, multiple times, that it was not appropriate. I outlined how a successful fundraiser works with programs, particularly the director, as I’ve been both an ED and a fundraiser, and that she and executive director needed to address this gap between all of them, sooner rather than later. Unfortunately the fundraising director (self-admitted) is having a hard time transitioning from working from home and making all the decisions herself while also not having any measurable fundraising experience.

    The fundraiser went into the executive director’s office and then the ED apologized to the program’s director, citing that they’ve been so busy they haven’t had a chance to sit down to develop a leadership strategy (it’s been two months since the fundraiser arrived and six months for the executive director). Basically they’ve never considered this approach, I handed it to him.

    Manipulation moment: it didn’t dawn on me that the fundraiser was never talking with the program’s director. I’m mad at myself, with my decades of experience, that I was being manipulated to be peeled away from programs to fundraising while hurting the programs director. I’ve apologized to the program’s director for not recognizing what was going on and hope I didn’t contribute to anything that negatively affected her. Yet, I know she can/should take care of herself.

    1. Been There*

      As a fundraiser, I can never understand how you can fundraise without knowing the org’s programs VERY well, but people seem to do it. And I have never understood the us vs. them mentality that seems to exist between fundraising and program staff. Just don’t get it. I couldn’t do my job without info from our WONDERFUL program staff. Guess I have no suggestions, just commiseration.

      1. sange*

        Yikes to this one! I’m a fundraiser and unfortunately my programs director doesn’t realize that grant money is not a suggestion on what to do, it is a binding commitment to deliver services in a particular fashion and commitment to certain outcomes. Frequent communication is so critical. Good luck!

        1. Manipulated Mango*

          You make a great point about programs wanting to fund dreams and fundraisers requiring reality. That’s why an open honest relationship is necessary to be in the same page.

          I wanted to be a grant write so I could learn all about an organizations programs and then bring their ideals and vision to life.

      2. Manipulated Mango*

        Yes it should be a tight relationship without daylight between the departments.

        Because I have worked in these roles, I can see the problems but I can’t lifeguard the situation. They have to learn to fix it themselves; I gave them a freebie.

        Worst parts

        – the executive director and the fundraiser are going to the national brand conference, but supposedly there’s not enough money to send the program director. The program person said it feels like the wedge will worsen after that,onsidering the ED and FD act like besties now. The program director is actively looking for something new.

        – we had a staff retreat 2 weeks ago during which the programs director said that even though their departments strength is their knowledge and skill their weakness is that they’re burned out. Since then the executive director has not addressed their burnout, stress or that our program manager is suffering from anxiety.

        AND our events manager is going on maternity leave with the hopes she’ll have another job and not return.

  40. New job, new mortgage*

    Spouse got two offers this week. One was $10k over what he asked for and is his first choice. We’re in the middle of buying a home and new company is happy to wait until after closing if a job change is going to slow anything down on the house. BUT, we are borrowing our down payment from the current 401k which is due immediately if he leaves. New company isn’t offering any upfront money but we wonder
    1) can spouse ask for some? They are already more generous than spouse had first asked for so it seems…greedy? Or smart sine they obviously aren’t cheapskates?
    2) Should spouse give the context for the request?

    Here’s the offer letter response we thought of:

    Thanks for the offer, Michael. After talking with you, Dwight, and Jim, I’m excited to join the Dunder Mifflin team.

    One question: would you be open to dividing up the first year’s salary any differently? Because of our home purchase, I’ll have a 401k loan of $X due immediately upon termination of my current employment. If Dunder Mifflin is willing to offer part of the salary as a sign on bonus, the transition between positions would be perfectly smooth. I understand if that’s not practical, but figured it can’t hurt to ask at this stage.

    1. AnotherAlison*

      I would absolutely not give an explanation of borrowing from your 401k in a letter requesting a signing bonus. Requests for money and perks are supposed to be related to value you bring, not your financial need. It’s going to come off poorly.

      Second, I would not buy the house, but that’s just my voice of experience. I borrowed against my 401k for my current house…one of those things where I was going to pay it back right away, but the new old house had unexpected expenses. . .

      1. Rusty Shackelford*

        Oddly enough, I think explaining the house purchase actually makes this request *less* odd. Because “hey, before I start, can I have a bonus?” feels really off to me, unless sign-on bonuses are A Thing in this industry/employer.

        1. AnotherAlison*

          In some ways it seems less odd, than, “HEY, can I have a bonus, cuz I was just thinkin’ more money sounds good.” In other ways, I think it conveys some things to the employer that can be negative, depending on their world view. I would be thinking here’s a guy who made a dumb financial mistake and now they want me to bail them out. I’d rather they just think I’m naive about asking for a signing bonus.

          1. goducks*

            I agree. If they just ask for the bonus, they appear naive about asking for a signing bonus. If they explain why, they look like they made a bad financial mistake AND they’re naive enough to think this is a reasonable ask.

          2. Rusty Shackelford*

            I mean, it’s messy either way. ;-) I think that since the sudden need is actually related to switching jobs, it would be slightly less weird to say “I’d love to accept your offer, except it puts me in this other situation, can you help me out,” as opposed to looking completely naive. But yeah, I honestly wouldn’t do either.

          3. Another worker bee*

            Eh, I asked for a signing bonus in a situation where it was absolutely not typical and I got away with it. I had some “golden handcuffs” that were about to vest in oldjob, where I was hardly essential, and newjob wanted me to start RIGHT NOW so I told them they had to match the stock, wait, or pass on me. Slightly different reasoning, but OP could phrase their situation vaguely enough that it could be interpreted as something like this

    2. JuneGem*

      NOOO! Please don’t ask for more money based upon a loan you can’t afford to pay. If your spouse is still negotiating, then asking for more salary might be appropriate; asking for a sign-on bonus to pay a loan seems misguided. The new employer doesn’t need to know how you spend your money and likely doesn’t want to know you have a loan.
      As for the 401k loan, if you don’t pay it, the amount will be added to your taxable income for 2019 and you’ll pay taxes and an early withdrawal penalty. But asking the new employer to pay for your financial choices is a bad idea and might paint your spouse in a negative light.

    3. Lucette Kensack*

      I don’t know how 401k loans work, but: what happens if you wait to make the purchase until you’ve rolled over the 401k to your IRA?

      I would absolutely not ask for what is, essentially, an advance of 25% of your husband’s annual salary. This is way outside the normal bounds of salary negotiations. (If I were the hiring company, I wouldn’t even consider it, and it would make me worried about whether your husband might be a difficult new hire.)

      1. Natalie*

        The timeline can’t work for that – they have to finalize the mortgage and close before the husband changes jobs, so they need the downpayment in hand before the 401k can be rolled over.

        1. Lucette Kensack*

          I don’t think that’s right. It sounds like their preference is to close on the sale before changing jobs (because changing jobs can slow down a closing, since their baseline financials are changing. But slowing down the purchase is a better idea than making this out-of-touch ask of a new employer.

          1. Natalie*

            It’s going to depend on the details but there’s no guarantee they’d have an approval after the job change. And rolling over the 401K adds additional delays from both the actual rollover process, and amending that aspect of the mortgage application.

            I definitely agree that they shouldn’t ask for a signing bonus, but tbh if that’s the only way they can make this work it’s probably best to walk away from the house entirely.

            1. Lucette Kensack*

              There’s not much downside to proceeding with the purchase with a delay (and opposed to walking away preemptively). The worst case is that the delay means they lose the house, right?

              (But yes, I agree. In almost any case — I’m thinking, like, you’re trying to buy back your childhood home or something where this is literally the only house that fits the bill — losing the house is a better outcome than screwing up your husband’s relationship with his employer.)

    4. goducks*

      oooooh nooooo. Don’t do this. I’m cringing for you.
      It’s impressive that they’re already waiting to fill a (presumably needed) position due to your home purchase. Do not ask them to be part of the financial transaction.
      It’s unlikely they’ll say yes, and it CAN hurt to ask at this stage. Remember, there’s a fair amount of goodwill extended to a new hire, but you can burn it quickly by making odd requests before you’ve even started. Even if he were a long-term employee, he’d be expected to fund his own home purchase, and a request for fronted funds would likely reflect poorly on him. Even more so when he hasn’t even started. Find another way. What asking telegraphs to his new employer is he has poor boundaries and isn’t in control of his life. They only have a tiny dataset on which to judge who he is, this will take up a considerable portion of what they know or think they know of him.

    5. Psyche*

      I wouldn’t ask for that. It can come across very negatively and make it look like you didn’t plan out the home purchase very well (since the downpayment issue is only coming up now) or make it sound like you expect them to essentially give you the downpayment for your house. They really shouldn’t have any role in your house purchase beyond verifying employment.

    6. MoopySwarpet*

      I don’t think you should ask for a signing bonus, but at a glance, it seems like the 401k loan repayment laws changed last year:
      ————
      The Tax Cuts and Jobs Act significantly extended the window to repay or roll over an outstanding balance on a 401(k) loan when a borrower leaves an employer. Effective for tax years beginning in 2018, the deadline is now the due date of the employee’s tax return for the year in which the distribution occurs, including extensions.

      This means if you leave your job during 2018, you would have until April 15, 2019, to repay, or Oct. 15, 2019, if you get an extension.
      ————-

      It seems like you could, worst case, have until Oct 2020 to repay the loan if you file for extensions.

      I am assuming that the old company is going to report the loan as a payout and then you are going to document that you put it back into a valid account. Or the IRS will want their taxes and penalty on whatever portion you end up not paying back by Oct 2020.

      You might ask the new company if they can take a 401k rollover with the loan attached, though. I saw a couple random google comments hinting that might be a possibility. I have no idea how that would work, though.

      1. MoopySwarpet*

        Also, that give him more than a year to 1) pay it off without help and/or 2) build goodwill within the company where he could ask for a favor like a payroll loan or bonus advance or whatever would be possible.

      2. New job, new mortgage*

        The info about the length of time is really helpful! We were going from the wording in the plan document and it didn’t occur to either of us there could be grace time in that. If so, we’re good. We should be able to repay it in full within 6-10 months, possible sooner. We’ll look into the time frame further. Thank you!!

        Other details I left out earlier aiming for succinct, but I now realize are important: Nee Company is very small and the owner is close friends with owner of Current Company. Spouse has known new owner and been in a gaming group with him a couple years. New Company didn’t exactly approach spouse because they didn’t want to appear to be poaching from a friend, but they sent word through a mutual friend that they were not advertising any openings, but would welcome hearing from spouse because they knew Current Company has some financial issues. Then the house opportunity came up very unexpectedly so it’s been a whirlwind to figure out!

    7. VITA tax preparer*

      Signing bonuses are not treated the same way as your earned income. you’re taxed on your signing bonus at a marginal rate which is higher than the rate that your tax that for your earned income.

      Bonuses are typically categorized as “supplemental wages” – compensation paid in addition to the employee’s regular wages. You could be subject to a marginalized tax rate of 25 to 28% which means a lot of that is going to go to the federal and or state government. so what you think is a windfall now turns out to be a bust later on.

      https://blog.turbotax.intuit.com/income-and-investments/bonus-time-how-bonuses-are-taxed-and-treated-by-the-irs-8003/

        1. goducks*

          Yes. This is one of those myths that comes up so often and totally drives me bananas. I’m going to start asking people to show where on the 1040 you record bonus income vs. regular wage income. And where on your W2 it differentiates the two.

          1. VITA tax preparer*

            Bonuses are considered “supplemental wages” by the IRS and are taxed at a 25% federal rate. Then that bonus may be taxed by the state and other required taxes which can lead to an effective tax rate of higher the 25% depending on where you live. All of this is on the employer’s side and not what you see in your W-2 at tax time. That’s why managing withholding is important before receiving the money.

            How was it paid: successive regular payments, a one time payment with regular earned income, a separate check, or was a 1099?

            A large signing bonus can also place one into higher tax brackets. The ways you can mitigate that is to ensure that you modify your withholding for all the checks the signing bonus is paid out in, of the one check the signing bonus plays out in, or if it’s paid as a check without any withholdings you should pay the estimated taxes before tax time comes around.

            Suffice to say a bonus is nice but it comes with tax obligations that are unique and different from earned income.

            1. goducks*

              You’re talking about withholding, not tax.
              Withholding happens at a supplemental rate (if the employer elects that method), but all earned income is taxed as earned income, and taxed via our progressive tables. If the use of the supplemental rate means that the employee is over-withheld when they file their tax return, they get a refund.
              Bonus earnings are earned income. Full stop. They’re reported to the IRS via W2 box 1 combined with regular wages. They’re reported on line 1 of the 1040, just like regular wages. They are taxed exactly the same.

    8. ThisIsNotWhoYouThinkItIs*

      Another option: If your lender does mortgage recasting you can always put down less to start and then recast the mortgage with a chunk of cash later this/next year. So you’ll have a higher payment to start, but it’s possible to change that later.

      Also, thanks MoopySwarpet! I had not heard about that longer duration to pay back loans and I’m usually on top of this stuff. I’ve got to look that up.

      1. 1st in Corporate*

        Since it is now May, ask for a sign-on bonus to cover the loss of your YTD 2019 bonus.

        Sign on bonuses serve 2 purposes: 1. To make you whole in things you are losing like bonus, equity vesting within next 12-18 months, having to repay current employer for tuition or relocation and 2) as a sweetener when they really want you to know that they really really value you or you have another offer and they need to beef up their package to account for a competing package that might have a better total comp and benefits package.

        Are you losing anything under 1?

  41. Mimmy*

    Need a reality check:

    Twice in the past couple of months, I was invited to apply for two separate jobs but I chose not to go forward. One was because of the commute and the other (yesterday) was because one of the components entailed something that I don’t think that I can emotionally handle.

    It’s the second one that’s upsetting me. A friend posted on Facebook that her organization had an opening working with high school students (“transition age”) with a particular disability. The pay was way better than I make now and the hours are flexible and includes working from home. Awesome, right? Well, some of these kids present with secondary developmental and mental health disabilities. I do see that now with my adult students. But that’s during the day. This new position entails contact (by phone) outside of working hours, perhaps well into the evening.

    I mentioned this to my husband, and he says many professional-level jobs entail evening phone calls. I explained that wasn’t the point – I am not opposed to occasional evening or weekend duties. I just know that I am more comfortable with jobs where the boundaries are reasonably clear. My friend did explain how she protects her boundaries, but I cannot picture myself handling a potential mental health situation at 10 o’clock at night. I have mental health issues myself so I get it–that’s precisely why I need to protect my own boundaries.

    Which brings me to my next hang-up: I now realize that I could be severely limiting myself. Long commute? Nope! Late-evening phone calls? Well, only in certain contexts. I always manage to find *something* as a reason to not pursue an opportunity. Not. Good.

    Also, I will admit that I’m looking at specific career paths and this particular position I was told about yesterday doesn’t quite fit well with that. I explained this part to my friend (but not the evening calls part) and she completely understood.

    Any thoughts would be helpful. I know I need a swift kick in the rear, but please make it a gentle kick ;)

    1. Willow*

      This doesn’t sound like you’re limiting yourself. It sounds like you recognize that there are aspects of jobs beyond just what you’re doing daily that are important to your personal happiness and well-being. That’s a good thing.

    2. knitter*

      I think you need to respect your self-knowledge. I’m a special ed teacher with background across a variety of disability types. It is exhausting work. I don’t check email at home. I do occasionally work in the evenings when I have reports due, but I really, really need the time to recharge so that I have the emotional/mental energy to handle the challenges my students present.

      One of the mistakes I made early in my career was that I could do anything if I just worked hard enough (then worked myself into the ground). I’ve since realized my limits and the situations that are triggering to my anxiety/depression. I don’t think this is a situation where you are limiting yourself. I think this is a situation where you are setting yourself up for success. And frankly, your success means the students’ success.

      There are other jobs and there may be another one that provides the opportunity to move forward in your career and not be on call at night.

    3. Rusty Shackelford*

      Looking for a job that *doesn’t* involve late-evening phone calls from emotionally/mentally/developmentally challenged teenagers doesn’t sound limiting AT ALL to me.

    4. Not All*

      It doesn’t sound like you need a kick in the rear to me. It sounds like you’re really taking the time to think about what’s important to you in a job rather than just going after whatever new, shiny thing is on offer.

      I dislike my current job (my position shouldn’t exist at all and it’s endlessly frustrating) but I’m still being picky about what I apply for. What’s the point of leaving one position for another with even more negatives? There is no inherent value in going after every opening out there!

    5. lawschoolmorelikeblawschool*

      I don’t think those two reasons you passed on the last two jobs are individually or combined an issue. I base practically everything in my life on having the shortest commute possible, and a very set schedule that leaves me free to forget about my job evenings and weekends. Luckily I have a job that offers those two things presently, but keep searching and you will find something that suits you better.

    6. TooTiredToThink*

      I normally don’t respond if I’m just agreeing with everyone else (or at least I try not to), but I feel like you need to hear this from multiple people :D – If you know that getting a late evening phone call on a regular basis is bad for your own mental health; you are NOT being unreasonable.

      I worked in a job where I was technically on-call all the time; although I might only get called once a month. I would also be expected to work after hours regularly as well. I am now in a job where I am not required to be on call, but I might get called if something bad happens (very, very rarely) and have some minor after hours work, but again minor. That layer of stress and feeling like I must “always be on” is gone. It is magnificent.

    7. anonagain*

      One of the most career limiting things I’ve ever done was to take jobs that were bad for my physical or mental health.

      I don’t see what you are doing as limiting yourself at all. It sounds like you are looking for situations where you (not your husband or your friend) can be successful. Long term, I think that’s a much better strategy.

    8. Psyche*

      I don’t think this sounds problematic at all. You don’t want a long commute and live somewhere that is possible. That’s great! You recognize that you are not mentally/emotionally capable of dealing with a teenager in crisis at 10pm. Also a great thing to recognize about yourself! Not every job is a good fit for every person. Limiting your career options to jobs that you are capable of handling does not sound “career limiting” to me. Unless you are unable to find any jobs you want, you are doing fine.

    9. JOA*

      This seems entirely reasonable to me. Perhaps said gentle kick would be best saved for your husband?

    10. Mimmy*

      Wow thank you all so much for the replies!!

      I believe in trusting your gut and mine told me that, while the pay and work from home option are big plusses, that the mentoring piece of the job may not be all that compatible with my mental health. Now, if that part was during normal hours, or at least within a reasonably predictable schedule, I might be able handle it. It’s unpredictability I don’t always do well with.

    11. Cedrus Libani*

      IMO, the point of having standards is to maximize your happiness. You’d rather not have a long commute, or a position where you’d be routinely on call. In your estimation, you’d be happier not taking those jobs, even once you factor in the additional stress of being on the job market while you wait for something better. That’s a decision that a reasonable adult can make for themselves.

      Of course, finding fault with every potential job can be a way of avoiding change. It might be worth taking a hard look at yourself – are you doing that? If so, that’s not going to maximize your happiness, not at all. But there’s nothing inherently wrong with deciding a particular job, or category of jobs, is not for you.

  42. I'm A Little Teapot*

    My work is project based. Starting up a new project, working with J (manager) and C (coworker). J doesn’t like C. C doesn’t like J. J’s expertise is in chocolate teapots, and the project is strawberry teapots, but J acts like he’s an expert. J also has a well known habit of not listening and then trying to throw you under the bus because he didn’t pay attention. C has already called J on that stuff.

    Ugh. This is a big project, it’s important. And these dumbos are just going to make the whole process harder.

    1. TheRedCoat*

      Oh wow. Yeah, save literally every email and documentdocumentdocument. (probably preaching to the choir, but still). If J knows C will push back on being thrown under the bus, they might look for an easier target.

      1. I'm A Little Teapot*

        oh, J’s tried it with me and I was able to return egg to his face. I was forewarned. He’s weak, and somewhat unreliable. It’s just frustrating. And it doesn’t help that my arm is mysteriously injured, so I’m crabby!

        We’ve got 2 new mgmt coming in, one of whom will be over J. Really hoping that’ll help.

  43. So so anon*

    Toxic team member is moving to another position in the organization as of Monday. I am beyond happy. We have a shot at making our team so much more productive now.

    3. knitter*

      so so jealous. Thanks for providing some hope that it is possible for a toxic team member to be moved.

    4. Klingons and Cylons and Cybermen, Oh My!*

      Do her new coworkers know what they’re in for?

  44. Maple*

    Does anyone here have experience with indexing books or have any insight into the indexing. . . industry? market? I’m interested in getting a little guidance if you’re willing.
    My husband is writing a book, and his contract indicates that he is responsible for his own index, for which hiring a professional is strongly encouraged. Pros are (very understandably) expensive and I have done different types of professional writing in the past, so I thought I’d learn how and do it myself. I’ve read a ton and practiced on some shorter pieces of my husband’s and am finding that I really like the skillset it calls upon and the type of work it is. So now I’m wondering how I can do more of this and really try it out. Can I do just indexing without getting a whole entire MLIS? I can’t find any classes anywhere near me, so would it be worth trying to find something online? And, in my research I found quite a few freelancers’ sites. They all seem to have hundreds of years’ experience and thousands of publications, but they must have started somewhere?

    I’m in a terrible, blahhh job situation right now, so this might just be grabbing at anything that looks like a change of pace, but I like to think about it. Thanks in advance.

    1. ginkgo*

      I used to hire freelance indexers when I worked in publishing! My advice would be to cold email publishers, or if you happen to know anyone who freelances for publishers in another capacity (proofreaders, copyeditors, fact-checkers), have them introduce you. You want someone in the managing editorial or production editorial department. Try very small publishers first.

      Not sure how it works at other publishers, but at mine, we had one guy who we’d been using forever who was super reliable. No one in my department really understood indexing since this one super efficient guy had just been taking our books and churning out perfect indexes for them with nothing more required from us, but my boss was afraid he was going to retire one day and we’d be screwed, so I did a little research and tried out a few different indexers, most of whom had cold emailed us (one was recommended by a freelance proofreader we used). I share this to say that it’s entirely possible that the person in charge of hiring indexers won’t really know how to evaluate your work. People in managing editorial tend to have a background in copyediting/proofreading, and I was used to giving detailed feedback to those freelancers and evaluating their resumes, but I was definitely a bit at sea when it came to indexers. I don’t think I ever realized that an MLIS was something I should look for! That might sound a bit discouraging, but you can probably use it to your advantage.

      That’s probably the extent of my knowledge haha, but happy to try to answer any other questions!

      1. Maple*

        This is so helpful, thank you!! Please don’t take my word on the MLIS thing- I just noticed in looking for classes that they tended to be offered within those programs, but that the freelancers I was looking at tended not to have acutal MLIS degrees (they might be other subject matter experts though if they’re in a niche publishing market). I will have to think about more questions, I wasn’t sure I’d even get a response!

    2. Oxford Comma*

      I wonder if you could take a single distance library school course in indexing non-matriculated?

      Not sure if I can post a link here, but if you look at the ALA site, they should have a list of accredited programs.

    3. Lena Clare*

      Hi,

      I did the Society of Indexers’ course. It was a long while ago, so my memory is a little fuzzy (I no longer index, unless for fun!) but they are UK based. You can do all the tests and study online though so I’m sure you could contact them and see if you can do their course or if there’s one in your home country. They offer accreditation and membership of the directory of professional indexers.

      I actually found it really fun :)

  45. Rey*

    My office just updated my PC to Office 365. I’m pretty comfortable with office suite in general, but does anyone have cool features or tips or shortcuts that I should know about? Thanks!

    1. Master Bean Counter*

      My favorite is the drop down list when attaching files in outlook. You can pick any of your most recent files with out having to go “dig” them out.

      1. JustaTech*

        Yes, that is an awesome feature!

        I also like that Excel lets you have two separate windows now, rather than trying to have all your files in one window. (I may have gushed about this to a Microsoft employee because it makes my life so much easier.)

    2. Plain Jane*

      If you compose an email that says Attached is the TPS report from March in the email body , 365 is smart enough to flag if you try to send before attaching.

    3. Silver Radicand*

      Oo! oo! Pick me! Our company just started using Office 365 a year or two ago and I’m pretty excited about it.

      Use the Sync folders feature! Seriously, it’s great. I scan tons of things and I can scan them straight into the sync folder on my computer and it automatically uploads into my OneDrive. You can also simply drag and drop otehr files (from your desktop or downloads, etc) directly into the sync folder.

      Also, you can have OneDrive back-up your desktop files! Less risk in case you computer decides to take a dump and more flexibility if you need to use a different computer.

      The “Teams” app is super useful for shared file areas, communication, polls, etc. We pretty heavily use it to communicate amongst individual teams and also company-wide now.

    4. KX*

      The past few months I have been delving into SharePoint, and SharePoint communication sites, and SharePoint Lists and then Microsoft Flows to automate processes between Forms, SharePoint, and email. I spent a few weeks really geeking out on it, and now I really appreciate how Microsoft Flow can integrate other applications.

      Some of the Microsoft applications (I am looking at you, Forms) are basic at best, but being able to automate/incorporate them compensates for their lack of features. And Microsoft Flow is a very bad, terrible, no good name–I actually got an email from Microsoft about how they can “help me manage my flow” in that exact phrase–but I am doing some excellent things with it. I guarantee someone in your company is going to become a SharePoint/Flow Evangelist who can give you a good tour of it. The official Support documentation isn’t that helpful or enlightening; a demo from someone using it can be inspiring.

    5. KEWLM0M*

      Not really a cool tip but more of an issue I’ve had: compatibility issues with different Excel versions. On more than one occasion, I’ve found that formulas were not calculating correctly in a worksheet if I had another (different version) worksheet open at the same time. I need to be able to refer to worksheets submitted to me to compile the information from others into one worksheet. I’m not copying and pasting but Excel still does not always calculate the formulas in the master worksheet correctly. It defeats the purpose for me of using Excel if I have to recheck the calculations every time I enter more data. If this is user error I would welcome feedback.

  46. NespressoCosi*

    Hi, I hope this is the right place to ask this. I am looking to develop my writing skills. I already write emails and blog posts as part of my existing job but I feel I am lacking in foundation skills – mainly, writing for SEO purposes. Does anyone have a recommendation for either free or paid-for (but preferably free) self-paced courses along these lines? I’m based in the UK if it helps any.

    1. Fantasma*

      Try Search Engine Land and Search Engine Journal for free resources. Search Engine Land updates their resource guide every year but even the older stuff is still helpful if you’re doing foundation work.

  47. fposte*

    I don’t know if anybody remembers the kerfuffle about the CEO of Zenefits, who withdrew the offer to a poor applicant who had the temerity to ask about the company on Quora. Well, I just found a Bloomberg article detailing the company’s meltdown and that CEO’s responsibility for most of it. Links, including to Alison’s first mention of the situation, in followup.

    I bet that former applicant enjoyed the article immensely :-).

    1. Amber Rose*

      Red flags are red and wavy for a reason. That applicant dodged a hailstorm of bullets.

      1. fposte*

        Yes, at a bigger business I think you could separate out the CEO’s capriciousness from the business as a whole, but at a company like that he unavoidably sets the tone.

    3. Elizabeth West*

      Wow, what an ego.
      It’s not a bad thing to weigh job offers. Everyone’s situation is different and you never know what might be important to a job seeker.

    4. That Girl From Quinn's House*

      I’m 99% sure I sat in front of one of these guys on the Caltrain once, as they blathered loudly on their cell phone describing their new HR startup, on a rush hour train that was silent except for their loud and boastful conversation.

    5. gecko*

      That was a good article–I love that kind of “how did this business break down” story, it’s fascinating.

      According to wikipedia (and its sources), two notable things that happened after the article was published:

      – CA fined them $7 million and some legal fees in 2016 but said they didn’t have to pay if they met some standards in 2018 https://money.cnn.com/2016/11/28/technology/zenefits-settlement-california/index.html?iid=EL

      – in 2017 they had another CEO change and laid of 45% of their workforce (!!), and said they were going to build up engineering teams in significantly cheaper areas (Vancouver and Bangalore). https://money.cnn.com/2017/02/09/technology/zenefits-layoffs/

  48. Amber Rose*

    Mini Friday confession: I’m late to the open thread because I just spent 20 minutes trying to get concert tickets on my work computer. xD

    Huge Friday update: I once wrote here about the coworker who we had like a “what if this dude comes in armed” code word for, and I was upset because it was either bullying or the wrong way to handle a dangerous person, although I didn’t think he was dangerous.

    Dude was fired this week. And apparently people HAD been going to management saying they didn’t want to come to work with him here and that they didn’t feel safe, he had been threatening people, and then became extremely paranoid. I guess he wrote a huge long rambling email about how certain employees were sabotaging his computer with viruses when his back was turned, and something about being targeted by Germans. Really woo kind of stuff. I heard about it second hand from my boss, it was apparently really bizarre stuff.

    So not only was I wrong about him just being awkward/weird, I’m now concerned that because they waited SO LONG to get rid of him to the point that he felt cornered and like everyone was against him, dude might actually really come back armed. Or, as my boss put it, drive his car through a window or something.

    And on a smaller, sadder note, I feel worried for his dog. The poor thing always flinched/froze whenever anyone pet it and now I’m concerned about what living with this guy is like for the pup. :(

  49. Astrea*

    People with solitary jobs: how do you emotionally handle it? I recently started a customer service job that’s mostly on weekend, at an institution where nearly all of the other staff work weekdays. Even when I have customers to interact with, I feel isolated and alone without colleagues who I can talk with, turn to for help, and share the work with. Now that my training and shadowing is done, I may not again see my “supervisor” or anyone who also does my job, unless and until I need to call on someone for help in an emergency. The thought keeps filling me with despair. (My other part-time job is also solitary, but it’s computer work that’s best done alone and I don’t do it for many hours at a time, so the new situation feels different.)

    1. Rosie The Rager*

      Astrea, I completely sympathize with you about feeling isolated and lonely on the job.

      Might I recommend an audio book that could easily be paused when you are answering a call? When I was on my own for an entire work day, I listened to half of “Into the Water” by Paula Hawkins. It made the hours go by quicker and kept me entertained.

      Does your position allow you that or to text with friends or perhaps stream something in the background (comedy or something where you can listen more than watch)?

      1. CastIrony*

        If it does let OP text friends, can someone tell me how to get a job like it?

        Though I’m sorry OP is in this situation.

      2. Astrea*

        I listen to audiobooks on my phone much of my off-work time, alone and in the vicinity of people I want to tune out. I’m sure I’ll do so at this job on the days when there are few visitors and I most need *something* to break the silemce. And while I don’t have friends I can text with, I socialize regularly in comments on a number of blogs. Those don’t inadequately substitute for in-person connections, though, as I found when I tried living someplace where I knew few people in *or* out of my sparsely-staffed workplace. Luckily, I do know many people in the community where I currently live.

    2. The Man, Becky Lynch*

      I’ve worked alone in most cases my entire career. A lot of it is my own office, doing customer service work and accounting, business ops kind of stuff.

      Music has always been my best friend, I listen to the radio and dance around while I do things like filing or restocking etc. Sometimes noise is enough to keep you from feeling the solitude. I’m best with the radio since it has multiple breaks and the commercials/DJ’s etc make it sound like other human chatter and not just constant background songs.

    3. Kyle*

      I’m in a position like this currently but I love it as I’m an introvert. Sorry to hear it’s rough for you and hope others have some tips for you!

      1. Astrea*

        I’m also an introvert, and would probablyfind the job more difficult if I wasn’t. But the interactions I struggle with most are the varieties of informal socializing. Structured interactions, where each of us has a known purpose with regard to the other, are easier. These include talking with strangers for the information-based customer service work I love, and also talking with colleagues.

    4. wandering_beagle*

      I would second the audiobooks. I have a couple of podcasts that I listen to on a regular basis that I really enjoy because the hosts have a very friendly, upbeat speaking style that makes me feel like I’m part of a conversation. Other than that, are there any online communities that you are a part of that you could check in with while you work? Group texts/chats with friends or family? Best of luck to you…I have had jobs like that and they definitely tested my mental fortitude.

    5. Blue Bunny*

      I’m guessing you aren’t looking for an answer like “marinate in a stew of my own misanthropy”?

      But seriously, when I worked in isolation I would make an effort to spend more of my social time in larger crowds–concerts/fairs/events rather than dinners with one or two friends. When my job involved a lot of social energy, I dialed back the personal social time to a minimum to balance.

      1. Astrea*

        Heh. I generally feel most inclined to marinate in my own misanthropy when I’m among people and feel annoyance or outsider loneliness. Like you, I especially crave and seek off-work alone time (always a necessity) when working intensively with people and social time when working alone.

    6. Astrea*

      My biggest struggle with the job right now isn’t a lack of socializing in my life altogether (I have other opportunities for that, though weekend work disproportionately limits them) or sheer silence in the workplace (it’s the busy season for customers), but isolation *as an employee.* I’ve experienced a workplace where there were many people doing the sane work as me and many more doing other interesting work, an occasially-fractious but close-knit and supportive community. I’ve missed it terribly ever since my position was cut. Now I have no one to share or discuss the work with, no one to help me or be helped by me, no potential for connecting with the institution’s many, many weekday-working employees. I enjoyed shadowing nice people, and now I might not see them again. There are two other people I know of who work there on weekends with a colleague and a maintenance worker on call if needed, but I feel very alone.

  50. Entry Level Marcus*

    Does anyone have advice for socializing with coworkers as a shy person? I am a pretty shy, weird, and socially awkward person (and autistic), so I find socializing with coworkers to be difficult and draining. As a result I really don’t socialize much with my coworkers. I’m friendly when people come to me with work-related questions, and I try to smile and say hi to people I run into in the hallways, but otherwise I keep to myself when there is a slow period or downtime (and there is ample downtime in my current position) while most of my coworkers spend a lot of the time chatting and developing work friendships (and sometimes real friendships too).

    I feel like this is hindering me in certain ways: many people barely know who I am, I worry my immediate coworkers think I don’t like them or find me unapproachable, and I am often one of the last people to hear work-relevant information off the grapevine. But I’m not sure what to do. I’m not sure what to talk about with my coworkers, especially in larger group conversations. Further, it’s hard to get up the motivation to make social conversation with people, which for me is stressful and draining, when I really just want to take my downtime to recharge alone before I get more work.

    1. Birch*

      Can you reach out on your own terms and invite a small group of colleagues to something? A group coffee break? Lunch? Are you in a field where you socialize outside of work and could do coffee/tea/muffins/knitting/picnic/whatever? It might help if you feel more control over the situation, especially if you like to compartmentalize work time and brain energy vs. social time and a different kind of energy.

    2. Marion Q*

      Are you me? Because this is what I’m struggling with as well.

      I don’t have any advice regarding motivation, but when it comes to larger group conversations, I find that being an active listener helps. I don’t really know what to talk about either, so when people talk, I usually ask people further questions about the topic. It makes you seem chatty, when really it’s other people who do the talking.

    3. Oxford Comma*

      It sounds like you’re doing a good job being friendly already.

      When people are chatting about non-work topics, can you listen thoughtfully and occasionally make a comment? For instance, if someone mentions going to a concert or a movie, ask them to tell a little bit more about it. If they talk about a trip they took, ask what their favorite activity was. It doesn’t need to take more than a couple of minutes now and then, but could go a long way.

    4. Introvert girl*

      I have the same problem.
      I started a Skype group called “soup time” where every day me (or someone else) posts the soups of the day from our cafeteria which are 50% off after a certain hour. When it’s time to go, I usually write “Off we go” and sometimes two, sometimes 10 people join.
      I recharge by walking my dog every day during my lunch break. A couple of years ago, when I didn’t have my dog, I used to take a walk outside (the company was situated in a very nice neighbourhood) and sometimes people joined me. This helped me form contacts.
      It’s still hard and I don’t have friends or a group I belong to at work, but I somehow manage. I realised I’m well liked, help people if they need help, but don’t get used by anyone.

    5. Sopranistin*

      I’m the same way. My suggestion is to start with one coworker, maybe someone around your same age, or you know of something you have in common, or even just a super friendly personality. Try to make a connection with that one person.
      For me, it’s easier to chat one-on-one versus in a group. Once I have that relationship, it opens the door for others. Plus that person may start to include you in group conversations, so you’ll feel more included.

  51. Panda*

    I am currently a contract manager but am thinking about making a mid career move to HR. Should I get another Master’s degree (I have one in organizational leadership)? Should I just start applying? Has anyone else successfully transitioned from something else into HR like this?

    1. A Simple Narwhal*

      Unless there is clear, definitive proof that another masters degree is going to gain you something, I would avoid it.

      1. A Simple Narwhal*

        Let me amend that by saying that I am not in HR, so I’m not sure if there is a specific masters that HR people tend to get or that you’re seeing as a requirement on HR applications.

        I would take a look at the jobs you’d like to transition into and see what gaps you have in your skillset, and then try and work towards filling those. I’d also see if you could talk to your current HR person and get some guidance from them. Most of the HR people I’ve interacted with didn’t start out in HR, so they’ve probably got stories/advice on how to make the switch.

        Good luck!

      2. irene adler*

        Amen.

        Would obtaining an HR certification make the difference?
        ARE there HR professional organizations that you can reach out to for advice on how to negotiate this? They would be full of helpful advice, I’m sure.

  52. Incantanto*

    This months Health and safety thing at work is mental health, specifically improving body positivity, which is good:

    But, after the spiel about healthy body image, what they have organised is a boot camp class, which suggests to me its more about trying to change your body than have a healthy image of it.

    Am I reading this wrong? Can I mention it?

    The bootcamp as well is hard work: my boss runs marathons and is coming back exhausted. There is no way I am going to try that in front of people, and I’m definitely probably the person who needs it. Ugh.

    1. Amber Rose*

      Euuw, yeah, push back. See if you can find anyone else who is less than thrilled about working themselves to death with coworkers and push back as a group. I guarantee there’s at least a couple.

    2. Moth*

      I would definitely push back on this. I agree that focusing on body positivity as part of a mental health focus can be a good thing. But the boot camp is problematic for many reasons, especially if they have it linked to the mental health/body positivity sessions. It may depend in part on the company (for example, my company has a health/wellness focus overall, so we do offer free boot camp classes for people who want to participate, but also yoga classes and meditation sessions and occasional fun run/walks that people can choose to participate in based on their level of interest/ability that day.), but if this is specifically connected to the body positivity stuff, then ugh.

      Maybe share with them some of the data around implicit bias and how telling people to be body positive and then suggesting they do a boot camp can feed into that implicit bias and internal stigma. Both of which can lead to poorer health outcomes. For some of those resources, I highly recommend visiting the News section on ConscienHealth and just doing a search for Implicit Bias or Stigma. I’m not affiliated, but as a scientist, I value their advocacy and accuracy.

      Is there someone there in charge of those things that you would be comfortable talking with and who you think would be receptive?

    3. The New Wanderer*

      It depends on how the boot camp option was framed. If it was “Do this to get healthy/slim down!” that’s not good because it suggests people aren’t necessarily healthy as is. If it was “Do this as a way to get active during the day!” I don’t actually see that as encouraging people to change their bodies so much as either have the opportunity to use their bodies in ways that office work itself doesn’t allow, or to challenge themselves physically if they so choose.

      But I think if they offer a rigorous boot camp, they should offer one or more alternative classes too that might appeal to a wider range of people or accommodate low impact requirements etc. My work has a similar program and offers mindfulness classes, organized stretch breaks, and a variety of exercise classes at the company gyms with participation-related discounts.

  53. Ryan Howard’s White Suit*

    I have a weird situation going on and I’d love to get some feedback. I applied for a job about a month ago. There was a bit of a delay while I think they initially pulled out people they wanted to interview, but at the beginning of last week they got back in touch and requested that I submit some writing samples if I was still interested. I was, and did. Then the other day I found out that they’d started calling my references (had to be listed upon applying). At this point I have not had an interview, just the initial application and writing samples, and no indication my references were being contacted. Has anyone had this happen to them? Is this as odd as it seems to me?

    1. wandering_beagle*

      It seems odd, but I guess I can see it from their perspective — it’s a lot easier to have a person call up your references quick and try to make the pack of candidates smaller that way, than try to arrange interviews and have the interviewer(s) clear their calendars. So maybe they think it’s an easier way to make the pool of potential candidates smaller.

      1. Ryan Howard’s White Suit*

        That’s the only way I’ve been able to rationalize it, too. I guess we’ll see.

  54. robineer*

    Hi all,

    No question this time around. I wanted to say thanks for answering questions I’ve posted on here before. I received and accepted an offer from a state university that I’ve wanted to work at since I was in high school. I’m super excited to start, and I know I wouldn’t have gotten this offer without Alison’s and the readers’ advice.

    2. Seeking Second Childhood*

      Good for you! All the advice in the world wouldn’t have helped if YOU didn’t listen to it and internalize it.
      Three cheers!

  55. KeepIt*

    Folks who switched careers – do you have any advice/anecdotes on how you decided what to do “next”? I’ve come to the realization over the past few months that the field I’m in just isn’t a good fit for my personality/things I value and I would like to transition into doing something different! A lot of the advice I’ve read online focuses on looking at your skills and figuring out which would be transferable to a new path but…I am honestly drawing a blank. The only skills I can think that I’ve developed over the years that are transferable/easy for people outside my field to understand relate to elements of my job that are the primary reason I want to leave (for example: I’m experienced in training people, but I don’t want a job where the primary focus is on running trainings). Any tips or even personal stories on this would be really really helpful and appreciated

    1. Mr. Tyzik*

      I switched careers after layoff, and it did require a focus on my skills and what I wanted to do moving forward. I had spent nearly 20 years doing work that I didn’t necessarily like, and whose skills I thought weren’t transferable. I wound up moving from a jack-of-all trades role to a consulting role by centering on soft skills and an area of specialty.

      I’m sorry to say this, but I think you really need to focus on your skills, especially your soft skills, and catalog them as they might apply to a new career. Read job ads to get an idea of what jobs you’d like to do, or the elements that you would enjoy vs. those you could live with. Think about the accomplishments that felt good and examine why, what caused those accomplishments to be special? And list those on your resume. You’ll want to focus on what you did with your skills, not the job description that you’re in.

      Essentially, your materials should be all about you and what you bring to the role. The jobs you had simply show where you applied your skills. It’s a subtle shift in perspective but an important one. Good luck!

    2. Career Change*

      Don’t do what I did, which was basically get into a situation in which I couldn’t take my old job any more, and was unemployed for a while before I more or less lucked into a new one – basically by applying for anything remotely relevant to the skills I could offer. Once I’d eliminated any jobs relate to the major duties of the old one, not many skills were left over! Well, that’s a bit of an exaggeration – I did try getting a bit more training in a related field that didn’t have the duties that were driving me crazy, but I never got a job with that. On the other hand, I did luck into a job that was suited me much more than the old one had.

      But don’t wait so long that you’re moving out of desperation. Look into possible new jobs that sound better first – you may have to take a salary cut to start over, though.

    3. Seeking Second Childhood*

      As a very basic place to start, ask if your state’s department of labor (or equivalent) has a career counseling center. If you have a college degree, ask if their counseling center is open to alumni. If you’re feeling like even that is too much to go with to start, ask your librarian for “What Color is Your Parachute” — or anything related that they’ve heard better reports on from their patrons.
      I liked it mostly — but better for me was the one-on-one I got from a career counselor hired by a company that had to do a massive layoff and provided support for their former employees. I just don’t know whether the workbooks are available anywhere else.

    4. Finally Back In A 'Proper Job'*

      I changed careers recently but I was pretty clear on what I wanted to do.

      When I started at my new role, another new starter who had switched careers explained how he had gotten there: He didn’t focus so much on his skills/what we wanted his role to be but more, what sort of company he wanted to work for/what he wanted his working day to look like.

      Then he started researching employers on ‘best companies to work for’ lists and shortlisted a few, looked at what roles they were hiring for, and took it from there.

      Just a thought

    5. Fortitude Jones*

      When I wanted to leave my claims career behind, I had no clue what to do next. So I sat down and made two lists: one was of tasks I never wanted to ever do again in life, and the other was of things I like/am good at/would love to do more of.

      My first list ended up being mostly external customer service oriented tasks (e.g. making or answering calls from customers/clients, sending letters to people, etc.) and my second list ended up being filled with all writing-based tasks (e.g. editing, proofreading, technical writing, etc.). I started looking for technical writing jobs, realized I did not have the right kind of experience for most of the jobs that were out there in my area, but I also ended up seeing jobs for proposal development. I’m embarrassed now to say that I didn’t have a clue what that was (seriously – how did I not know this was a thing?!), but I applied to these positions anyway because I figured that my strong compliance background and writing skills would be useful in that role. After receiving many rejections for these roles, I finally got hired as a proposal manager at a company that paid well below market. I didn’t care about that so much as the salary was still slightly more than I was making in claims and I figured I would have way less stress – and I was right.

      I’m now in my second proposal development role (almost finished my first week), and I absolutely made the right choice by picking this field. You just have to play to your strengths, minimize your weaknesses, and you may even need to do what I did, which was take a lateral move, until you can find the career that best suits you. Good luck!

    6. Cedrus Libani*

      For me, I focused on the parts of my job that I actively wanted to do. I was Class of 2008, so my early career path was a little bit…interesting. But I’m a technical-minded person who enjoys solving problems, even if I’m operating mostly on bravado and Google-fu. No matter what my job was supposed to be, people quickly figured out that I could fix their computer stuff. They were happy to put me to work, and I was happy to let them. Yes, I’ll un-break your database (after I ask Google how to do that), but I’m supposed to be cleaning the chocolate grinder right now…oh, you’ll have Fergus clean it? Works for me.

      Eventually, I went back to school, such that I’d be qualified for the vastly better paying jobs where I was actually supposed to be doing that stuff. Now I’m a data science generalist. I’m working on data related to my former field, so I haven’t left that behind entirely, but it’s other peoples’ job to make data (and scrub the grinders).

  56. noahwynn*

    Our office is currently undergoing a remodel. I know it will be nice in the end, but at the moment it is difficult to work at times.

    First, you have the construction noise. It is not constant but is annoying when you’re trying to concentrate. Today we also have no hot water. When I informed them it was a potential OSHA violation all I got was a blank stare. Yesterday we found out we will likely have to move desks twice and will be 8 desks short so at least 8 people will end up working at the break room tables for 3 weeks.

    All of this is ok and temporary, but the communication has been terrible. We’ve asked for schedules of electric outages, water outages, moving dates, etc. None have been provided and the facilities coordinator acts exasperated when we continue pushing for them. I told my boss I’m not working in the breakroom all day with people filtering in and out and if we’re selected for that temporary location I’ll be working from home. She agreed thankfully.

    1. Seeking Second Childhood*

      Ask ahead of time about dust barriers. I wish I had because they didn’t put them up around the places that had rugs torn up — and it was visible throughout a working office. The people working closest to it had to be sent home with nausea – 30 year old rugs and the dust of ages. Bleh.

  57. Luisa*

    Advice on using your network, please!

    I need a new job yesterday. My boss and her boss both suck and aren’t going to change. I’ve been doing a training course this year to earn a professional certification and a new skill, which is sponsored by my employer (let’s say Dunder-Mifflin), but by corporate, not by my branch specifically (the Scranton branch). One of my fellow trainees works at another branch (Pittsburgh, let’s say), and there is a job opening there. This fellow trainee knows my work within the context of this training program, but not much about my work beyond that, since other aspects of my work (and that of all participants) is not directly related to the training.

    I want to talk to her about the opening at the branch where she works, but I’m not quite sure how to frame the conversation. The best outcome I think I can realistically hope for would be for her to tell her boss that she knows the work I do related to our training (and I do it well, BTW) and to suggest I may be worth talking to if the rest of my profile fits what they’re looking for (and based on the job description, I think I’d be a good fit).

    Thoughts? I’m going to see her at training early next week, but I can also opt for email.

    1. A Simple Narwhal*

      Totally go for it! I think you could send out an email now, saying that you saw a position open at her branch, it seems like a great fit, and how you’d love to discuss it further when you see her at the training next week.

  58. JobHuntingHelp*

    Hi all,

    I’m hoping for some job hunting advice. I’ve been working for the past 5 years in

    1. JobHuntingHelp*

      Somehow I hit submit really early, ack. I am posting from my phone, which is not the easiest.

      I’ve been working for the past 5 years in an LMS support role. In that time, I’ve also learned Lectora and Camtasia and worked with SMEs to develop e-learning courses. I’m ready to move on but am not having success getting interviews. So far, I’ve applied to 7 jobs. I’ve gotten one phone interview and had one recruiter contact me to ask to see samples of my work. Then that recruiter completely stopped responding to my emails.

      I know 7 jobs is not a lot but I’ve felt really confident about some of them and I’m disappointed I’m not getting more traction. I don’t know of its the fact that I don’t have a degree in any type of education field (I have a bachelor’s in applied mathematics) or that my resume/cover letter is not strong enough or that all these jobs have asked for salary requirements and I’ve listed too high of a salary. I’ve been listing what would be about a 20% increase from my current salary and what I’ve found (mainly on glassdoor) it looks like I would be on the low end of the range for the jobs I’ve applied for. Should I be taking a different route with that dreaded desired salary question? Is my lack of an education in training going to disqualify me? Is there something else I should be considering?

      Alternatively, I could just be way too impatient. I was recruited for my current job, so it’s been a long time since I’ve been seriously job hunting.

      1. Fortitude Jones*

        I’m leaning towards impatient – seven jobs just isn’t enough jobs applied to to draw conclusions about what’s “wrong.” The companies could be waiting for a batch of resumes to come in and haven’t reached out to anyone yet – you just don’t know. Relax, keep applying, and try to find other things to occupy your time besides job searching so that you can stop overanalyzing things.

        1. JobHuntingHelp*

          Overanalyzing is my middle name! That’s good advice, I’ll try my best to follow it.

          1. Fortitude Jones*

            It’s hard, but I’m sure the job that’s meant for you will come. Good luck!

  59. Tea Fish*

    One of my coworkers has increasingly expressed dissatisfaction with the core tenants of his job… and as a result, now spends big chunks of his work day browsing the internet and using his phone. He works in one of the main open rooms and is laughably bad at closing tabs and putting his phone down when people walk in on him not working, takes half hour ‘breaks’ to browse the web etc. He’s also adopted an increasingly negative attitude about his job and uh, stuff that seems kind of irritating but otherwise ordinary (at least to me) and spends a lot of time talking about ~all the work he has~ and how he shouldn’t have to do this or that and how he wants to bring in help to do his job for him. It’s gotten to the point where I’m VERY tempted to reply, “Sorry, is doing [X part of your job] cutting into your phone time?” one of these days. HR/Management has been notified but so far nothing has been done.

    Should I actually say that? Should I address his internet usage with him? Should I start pointing out every time I see him browsing the internet? (“Oh, was that Twitter?”) Is this a stay in my lane situation? Normally, I’d have zero interest in monitoring a fellow coworker’s computer usage– as long as they’re getting their work done, then by all means, check twitter. But between his lack of work ethic and whining and constantly not doing his work while complaining about having too much work… I’m not gonna lie, I’m annoyed as all hell.

    As a note, I don’t manage this coworker (in fact, I think he doesn’t have an official manager and that lack of oversight is contributing to his behavior), but I am senior to him and sometimes assign work to him (which he then pushes back against.)

    1. Fortitude Jones*

      Since you’re not his manager, I don’t think you have standing to say anything to him about his internet usage. However, the next time he gripes to you, you can say something like, “How’s the project I assigned you last week going?” If he complains and says he doesn’t have time to get to it, you can say something like, “Well, it’s due next Friday at noon, so touch base with me and your manager if you run into any issues.” Then you can discuss his general work practices with his manager, not in a schoolyard kind of way, but in a “I’m concerned that he’s not focused on some very important projects I’ve assigned him, and I think he may need some more oversight from you” kind of way. Let his manager deal with his bad attitude and poor work habits.

      1. valentine*

        Be an unceasing ray of sunshine. Hopefully, he will stop griping at you. When he pushes back, redirect him to your manager, if that makes sense: “That’s a Christellen problem.” You could also ask your manager for advice if he’s claiming he’s too busy to do what you assign him, and report his skiving that way.

    2. alphabet soup*

      It sounds like your issue is actually with his attitude and not with his phone/internet use. I agree with Fortitude Jones that it doesn’t sound like you have standing to address the latter. But I think you could address his bad attitude. When he complains to you about not liking his job or having too much work to do, you could try to shut it down by saying things like, “Sorry, I’m too busy to talk right now,” or “I actually enjoy doing X so I can’t relate, sorry.” But if he doesn’t pick up on the hints, you might want to have a more direct conversation with him, something along the lines of, “Sorry you’re so stressed, but hearing you complain about work all the time is affecting my productivity, so can we make this a complaint-free zone for a while?”

      1. alphabet soup*

        Oh, sorry. I missed the part where you said you assign work to him. In that case, I think Fortitude Jones’ advice is spot-on when his attitude/slacking directly affects your assignments.

  60. The Sun is Out!*

    For those of you in IT, I have a question. I use Outlook at work and I also have the reading pane turned on. If I get a potential malicious email, will simply having it open in the reading pane create and issues, such as downloading malicious software, viruses, etc.? I’m not talking about clicking on the links within or the attachment, just having it open in the reading pane.

    The IT department at work periodically sends out phishing emails to test us. I never click on the links; however, I do hover over them to see if they’re legitimate or not (something I do with ANY email I get that contains links). I also never open the attachments (they’re pretty obviously fake). I then delete the email. Well, apparently just the fact that these emails are displayed in the reading pane is enough for me to fail the test. It’s happened to me twice now. The first time I had absolutely no idea why I received an email telling me I needed to watch a training video about detecting malicious emails. The second time, I didn’t know I’d “failed” until I was talking with a coworker about a half hour after I got the email and they told me just having it in the reading pane was enough to fail us. She then told me “we’re not allowed to use the reading pane at all.” I checked everywhere and it’s absolutely not written in a policy or training material anywhere, and I was not told this when hired. I reached out to IT and they confirmed we’re not to use the reading pane, but still, it’s not written anywhere and was never communicated. I mentioned it to my boss and she confirmed she’s never heard this. We’ll see what happens!

    1. Elizabeth West*

      That’s nuts. I can’t even deal with email in Outlook without the reading pane. How would that even be a problem?!

    2. Ktelzbeth*

      My IT has said the reading pane isn’t a problem, so I’m very interested in your question. Hopefully someone will come along with enlightenment.

    3. Brownie*

      Reading Pane is a problem if the settings in Outlook are set to automatically download and display images/content within the email since images or other content which link to an external website can contain compromising code. It’s like the malicious ads on websites where displaying them is enough to infect a computer. The settings are under Trust Center in Outlook and refer to HTML format emails, which are the ones where external URLs are used.

      1. The Sun is Out!*

        It’s not set to download pictures; however, I’ll need to check the settings for other things. I didn’t think of that.

    4. Utoh!*

      Sure, at a point long ago there was an issue with the Reading Pane in Outlook allowing hackers to exploit its vulnerabilities but Microsoft has since greatly improved their security. I don’t know what version you use, but we are on Outlook 2010 (Exchange 2013 server), and know many in my organization use the Reading Pane (I don’t, just a preference), and we have never told users they cannot. Seems like your IT department is a bit overly cautious/behind the times with their concern over this. Yes, users should be educated about spam/phishing emails and told not to download any files or click any links. Ultimately, there should be many levels of security starting with a service to scan emails for viruses before they even get to the organization’s mail server, and ensure server and desktop OS patches and Anti-Virus updates are being applied on a regular basis. We’ve never had an issue with an spam/phishing email that was displayed in the Reading Pane or by someone double-clicking on it just to read it.

      (Yes, I work in IT).

      1. The Sun is Out!*

        “Seems like your IT department is a bit overly cautious/behind the times with their concern over this.”

        You don’t know it, but you hit the nail on the head in terms of not just IT, but many departments within the company. It’s very weird, because they’re quite forward-thinking in the solutions presented to customers (more so that my last company and others like it), but many departments are stuck in the past. It’s a very strange mix.

    5. CupcakeCounter*

      I have the reading pane open now and passed one of those tests this morning.

  61. Cats unlimited*

    My office is chilly and I feel like it’s my fault.

    We’ve had a lot of restructuring and moving around and I ended in an office where 70% of the people are new to me. I have always been super quiet and a bit anti social but all my life I’ve gotten along well enough with other people. Towards the beginning I know I said some things that just didn’t come out right and offended people. Unfortunately I didn’t realize it for a long time (just socially unaware), but people seemed to have moved on. I also realized that my sense of humor just doesn’t land ever so before I go into work I tell myself “no joking, no sarcasm, no smiling, no laughing” (as I tend to laugh at the wrong time), which is like really depressing.

    There are also a couple of coworkers that really rub me the wrong way. This one person never respects my answers and another constantly forces their political opinions on me. So I tend not to interact with them beyond work and superficial stuff. But they seem to take offense at my polite disinterest. Another co-worker seems to have stopped talking to me entirely even though I’ve always been on good terms with him and I can’t think of anything I might have done wrong.

    I am also struggling with things in my personal life that really zap my energy. So I have been rather withdrawn and unhappy looking at work. I know for a fact that coworkers have noticed but none of them care.

    Lately it really seems like things have shifted. I am excluded socially from lunch and coffee breaks and people sometimes make snide comments about my work. My boss has rolled his eyes at me a couple of times. And overall everyone is quieter. Its like when I walk into the office a chill descends over it and people have a wide berth around me.

    I have thought about looking for a new job but my industry is small and I would likely have to move across the country. Plus I was planning on going back to school part time this year. How can I regain confidence and social standing at my current job?

    1. Rosie The Rager*

      Cats Unlimited, I am terribly sorry for the difficult situation you are in. I too have found myself feeling excluded from social gatherings in office spaces. In my case, the other workers were part of a religious group of which I am not a member. Being left out of festivities further heightened the differences I felt between my co-workers and myself.

      It’s no fun to believe people are purposely being distant from you, especially when nothing you’ve done warrants such extreme behavior. I am particularly concerned about your boss’ eye-rolling at your work.

      Perhaps attending school and interacting with other people with shared interests and goals will lift your spirits and make you feel less alone.

    2. Alianora*

      Are there any coworkers who are friendly and social (to you and in general?) Maybe you can try asking them to get coffee sometime, and build a better relationship with a few people at least. If it works out, that might be able to snowball into better relationships with your other coworkers.

      Also, it’s hard to tell without specifics, but could it be worth it to apologize to the people you offended at first?

    4. Mr. Shark*

      I am also struggling with things in my personal life that really zap my energy. So I have been rather withdrawn and unhappy looking at work. I know for a fact that coworkers have noticed but none of them care.
      Well, this can cause problems itself. If you are withdrawn or unhappy, people don’t want to be around that. We had a co-worker a while ago that was always sad and would say random stuff that would be a Debbie-Downer type topic. We spent a lot of time trying to get her to eat lunch with us, go out to lunch, talk about different subjects, and it was such a chore because she just looked miserable.
      I know it’s difficult, especially given the circumstances you’re in right now, but I think it’s important to act engaged and act, if not happy, at least glad to be at work. If you have a more positive attitude, that can rub off and make people more willing to be around you, and therefore will make it so that you are happier. It’s a sort of “fake-it-till-you-make-it” type of attitude.
      Listen to what they talk about, even if you’re not involved in the conversation, and then try and find some common ground (sports, movies, tv shows, Pinterest projects, pets??) which you can discuss with people. If they know you’re open to it, they may be able to move forward on any past slights.

  62. Game of Thrones Character*

    Soooo I was laid off this week. I can’t say I am totally shocked but I am surprised they laid off so many people so quickly. The upside is technically I’m employed through June 30th which is great because I can say I have a job (plus the pay and benefits).

    So now my question, how do I talk about this in interviews? I already have two phone screens and I’m going to focus on why I’m interested in these roles but I feel like at some point in time I need to say that I’ve been laid off. Especially since I want to use my current manager as a reference since it’s a strong reference and I really need her to fill one of my reference slots.

    There are also some more lateral or lower positions that I’ve applied for. How do I express my interest in those? I know it’s not a great answer to say “I need a job, any job.” Thank you all in advance for your help!

    1. Rainy days*

      Find *something* about the job you can say genuinely interests you. Or, just something about the job, even if it does not interest you all that much.

      When I ask people, “Why do you want to work at this organization?” I really want to know, “How much do you know about this organization already?” Some people I interview clearly haven’t read anything about the organization beyond the job description. We’re a nonprofit so being mission-driven it is important that people come into it knowing what the mission is and feel on board with it. Probably for-profit companies are different. However, I still think it would be helpful to use this kind of question as a chance to show that you’ve read up on this specific company and can give some reason you’d like to work there, even if it doesn’t relate to your deepest desires.

    2. ThatGirl*

      You will get asked why you left or want to leave your current job. It can be pretty straightforward – just say you were laid off/got notice of a layoff/there were layoffs in your company. Basically every business in the word understands that sort of thing. I find that much easier to talk about than the time I got fired!

      For the jobs you’re applying to, try to focus on “I thought XXX part sounded interesting” or “I’d like to move into xxx field” or what have you.

    3. SecondChoice*

      First of all, I’m so sorry! I was laid off, and am job searching now, so 1) I can feel your pain, and can relate to how you’re reeling right now. It sucks, hard. But, on the upside – for 2) I can tell you that layoffs are a natural (sad but real) part of the business landscape right now! So don’t sweat it. Be prepared to answer the question in a concise way that shows why you were laid off that’s more about the business rather than about your performance. So something like: “Jane, why are you looking to leave ABC co?” “Actually I’m already transitioning out. You see, we went through an acquisition 6 months ago, and as part of the ongoing business transformation after that, some products and BUs were being reshuffled and downsized over the recent weeks. Unfortunately, my department was hit hard, and over 1/3 of my team was let go, including everyone in my office.” I like to give #s when I tell the story … though in my case, there were literally thousands of us let go, so it’s kind of an easier story to tell (and, moreover, my entire department – all 40 of us – were let go). But in any case, pull it into a concise story that you can tell in 2-3 sentences and there likely won’t be any follow up questions or comments beyond the surface stuff (like “oh no, I”m sorry to hear that” kinds of things).

      Good luck, and hang in there.

  63. Prospective developer*

    Has anyone here attended a for-profit coding bootcamp and then gotten a job afterwards? Which one did you attend

    Or, have you hired someone who attended a coding bootcamp? How well prepared were they for the workforce?

    I am a mid-career professional considering making a career change, partly for financial reasons (although I know there are a lot of people entering tech solely for financial reasons and although it would be a step up for me financially, it wouldn’t be as big of a step up as for others) and partly because I’m bored in my current career path.

    1. Overeducated*

      I haven’t but I have four or five friends who did!

      The people who have had the most success were people who had really strong research/analysis/statistics skills from PhD programs in science or social science, but not much applied corporate experience. They did either data science or user experience boot camps and got impressive jobs at big name tech companies. So slightly different areas, but same boot camp model. I think these friends were positioned well for success because they needed to learn the lingo and how to reframe their experiences, but they had pretty advanced existing skills to pull in to get the higher paying jobs.

      A friend who has made the transition but took some time to get there was a musician who did a regular coding bootcamp to get into a career as a developer. I think he did a lot of freelance and short term contract gigs for a year or two before he found his financial footing, but it eventually did work out.

      Another friend did a coding bootcamp and got hired right back at the end to teach the next one (she was trying to switch careers from teaching!). She did that for maybe a year max, never got another coding job as far as I knew, and decided to apprentice as a carpenter instead, which was more her cup of tea.

      1. Prospective developer*

        Very interesting to hear about all the different paths people took!

      2. AcademiaNut*

        That sounds quite reasonable to me. I have former colleagues who did bootcamp type programs aimed at people leaving STEM research for corporate positions – they had strong analytic skills, lots of math/stats plus programming experience, but needed to learn big data specific tools and build a portfolio. They went immediately on to six figure positions at major Silicon Valley companies.

        With someone who has no programming/math/stats background, it takes time and practice to get good at programming, even after you’ve learned the basics. Designing algorithms and debugging takes skill, and it takes practice to build your intuition and get efficient at it. So in that case, you’d be starting at the very bottom of the profession and would have to work your way up.

        Oh – if you do go into coding as a second career, one way to gain practical experience is by contributing to open source projects via GitHub. You can get feedback from people on the project that will help you improve your coding, and employers can see exactly what work you’ve done. It’s also quite flexible in how much you do and when you do it.

    2. wandering_beagle*

      Are you me?? lol I’m strongly considering going this route because of career boredom and inability to find anything else on the same financial level as what I do now.

      My spouse is a software engineer and he has many co-workers and former co-workers who have done this. They all seem very employable and prepared, but from what I’ve heard, you end up learning a lot in that first job out of bootcamp.

      1. Engineer Girl*

        I think you mean software developer? An engineer usually has an engineering degree or equivalent. They usually work at the architecture and higher level for the entire life cycle. Developers usually focus on coding aspect, with some work in the design and test area.

        1. Reba*

          Engineer Girl, we may be losing the battle on this one!
          My spouse is a software developer, but has a background in architecture which is also a licensed profession, so they are sensitive to the engineer moniker…. but also has noticed that “engineer” on the resume seems to be powerful. Many, many positions are called “engineer” these days for no real reason.

          Signed, someone who actually curates things, like, for real, in a museum

          1. Engineer Girl*

            Yes, I see the use of “software engineer” everywhere. I think it’s a huge amount of Dunning Kruger. People that aren’t engineers don’t know what they don’t know and think the knowledge/experience gap is significantly smaller than it is.

            I try to explain it by using stats. Software engineers only spend about 10% of their effort coding. Conversely, software developers spend 60-90% of their effort coding and debugging. Developers often don’t have all the theory behind the design.

            Software engineers often earn significantly more than developers, which may be fueling the false claims of the engineering title. The reason engineers earn more is because they oversee the entire operation and are responsible for the entire life cycle:
            • proposal
            • requirements
            • hardware interfaces
            • software interfaces
            • use cases
            • design and architecture
            • developement
            • test
            • integration
            • delivery
            • long term maintenance

            Gotta get the word out, even though it’s a lost cause.

            1. Engineer Girl*

              Oops. I left off verification and validation, which comes after integration and test.

    3. The Ginger Ginger*

      Really do your homework to find a reputable one if this is the route you go. There are some attached to colleges out there. Some will cover tuition if you fail to find a job in the industry within a certain amount of time post-graduation. You want somewhere that screens for aptitude in some way. If there taking any and every one, it’s probably not too rigorous. Look for things like that. There are some groups out there that support diversity in tech, and help minorities and women who want to break into coding. If you fit one of those groups, maybe look around for groups like that.

      Red flags: 100% of students graduate our program!! (Probably not a rigorous enough a program. This is hard and not for everyone, so some people will fail to pass.), Very low % of graduates find CODING jobs in the industry post-program (if they hire their own graduates as teaching assistants to inflate their hire % that should make you nervous).

      If you haven’t had much exposure to coding and are thinking of just jumping at a bootcamp out of desperation, I really, really recommend you try some much less expensive self -led learning first. Take a look at something like Codecademy or some other online learning portal like Lynda. You can take some free courses to get your feet wet. I’m using Codecademy Pro courses at the moment to see if coding is something I’d like to do in the future. A year membership cost me like…$250? Significantly less than the $10k bootcamp I was considering. Go to youtube and watch some videos. That kind of thing. There are ways to start this journey without a bootcamp if you’re self-motivated enough to teach yourself. And even if you can’t push yourself the whole way, you can decide if you like it and build a foundation for a bootcamp to work with.

      Good luck!

      1. Prospective developer*

        Thank you! I have been self-teaching for a year or so, and I’ve attended some free (short) classes; I’m really trying to figure out whether I want to make the leap into studying it formally. You hit the nail on the head–it is so hard to figure out which bootcamps are reputable. The red flags you suggested are extremely helpful.

    4. Bootcamp Grad*

      I’m kind of late, but I graduated from a local web development bootcamp a little under a year ago. (I attended in the Twin Cities, which was the only location at the time.) It was part time for 6 weeks, and full time for 14 weeks. I had some coding experience, and a degree in math before I entered. I got a job about 2 months after graduation.

      I’d echo what was already said about looking at graduation rates, and employment rates (and TA hire rates). The bootcamp I attended currently has something around 85% hire rate 6 months out, but some of that number is people who were hired as TAs at a different bootcamp in the area.

      The thing that was incredibly helpful to me in the job search was the network that my bootcamp had. One person in the office knew just about everyone in the local tech community, and we had a career day with interviews with local companies that were hiring. (3/19 people were hired out of that in my group, but other groups had higher or lower rates, depending on how many positions the companies were hiring for.) I ended up with 2 job offers, both through the network of my bootcamp. Because of this, I would caution against the bootcamps through universities. The local one is taught by an outside company that contracts(?) with the university. The outside company is national, so they don’t have a big local network, and as a result I don’t think their hire rates are as good.

      Before you start, I’d make sure you have a pretty good familiarity with basic computer stuff (sorry if this sounds basic, but those in my group who didn’t have as high a familiarity struggled more), and probably check out the Codecademy courses. I’d also ask the bootcamp about the current average salary for grads, and current 1/3/6 month employment rate (and whether they’re coding jobs!). I know in my area, there are 3 bootcamps, plus the local universities, and there are just so many developers with 0 developer job experience, so entry level salaries have fallen.

      Personally, I’m very glad I did the bootcamp, and it was a really great opportunity for me, but I would have had nowhere near as good an experience if I had gone through a bootcamp with fewer connections, or one online.

      1. Prospective developer*

        Thank you! Super helpful in terms of things to look for. There are a lot more than 3 bootcamps in my area so I wonder if junior developer salaries are even lower–something to look into for sure.

        There is a bootcamp attached to a local university here but it’s probably the only one I’m not considering because the head of the CS department at the university has made some not so nice comments about women in tech. :/

  64. Alexis Rose*

    I’m planning on talking to my manager today about asking for a workplace accommodation for dealing with my anxiety. I want to ask to work a couple of days at home per week. My job doesn’t require coverage and I have a laptop and VPN access so I have access to all the same things at home as I do in the office. I am going to figure out how to forward my desk phone to my home phone and would offer to provide updates on what I’m accomplishing if my boss wants that accountability. I have received really stellar performance reviews (he had to convince his boss that my performance deserved a higher than normal rating), so I think I have earned the professional capital needed that no one would worry about me slacking off at home or not meeting expectations.

    Even with how good I am with my job, I find that I’m suffering with some presenteeism and some absenteeism, using my sick days for days when I really just can’t force myself to leave the house. I’m on medication and going to therapy, but my doctor and therapist both think this might help.

    Even though it would help me personally, it would also help my productivity. But I’m afraid that even with a plan to assure everyone that I’m meeting the expectations, I’m worried that this will affect my reputation or that I’ll start being treated differently…… I’ve read Alison’s primer on talking to your boss about mental health, but any other advice? Has anyone else done something like this?

    1. lenaaa*

      Is there any way you can broach the subject without bringing health/mental health into it? It may depend on how common working from home is in your workplace, but framing it around improved productivity/balance/generic “stress reduction” might be enough with the goodwill you have built up with your boss.

      My other thought is to speak generically about some “health issues” you’re working through, and that having flexibility to work from home a day or two per week would help you manage them. You shouldn’t need to disclose the details to your boss.

      Also, solidarity as someone who occasionally takes a sick day or work from home day for no other reason than my anxiety brain desperately needs a break. Mental health days are a perfectly acceptable reason to take a sick day, in my opinion, and I’ve worked out with my boss to work from home once per week, as needed. It does make a big difference. :) I hope it goes as well for you!

      1. Federal Middle Manager*

        I disagree. I’ve definitely seen people want a perk, have it rejected, and then *miraculously* be diagnosed with a thing that needs *that exact perk.* As far as reputation and reliability go, this chain of events is much more damaging to your reputation than asking for an accommodation off the bat.

        1. lenaaa*

          Yep, that’s a good point, I didn’t think through the rejection aspect.
          As other commenters have mentioned, taking the generic angle and mentioning that your doctor has recommended this approach would be totally reasonable.

      2. Catwoman*

        +1 for the more generic “health issues” approach. You can say it’s based on your doctor’s recommendation or get a letter from your doctor indicating this.

    2. AvonLady Barksdale*

      You could start the discussion by saying you have some health issues that could be mitigated by working from home a couple of days a week. You don’t have to specify. A concerned boss might ask, but you can say you don’t really like to talk about it. If they ask for some documentation, then get your doctor to write a note. You can also say that you’d like to try for a while and see how things go.

  65. Brownie*

    Someone figured out this week that they could email an internal department-wide mailing list from an external unrelated-to-employer email address. No one involved in setting up the internal mailing lists can figure out what happened to allow external emails to use them and I’m sat back with popcorn and played armchair analyst while watching all the “Do not reply to this person” and “This person is not an employee, do not respond or interact with them” followed up with “Is this a phishing scam to get our personal email addresses?” messages fly back and forth. Sadly it seems as if folks are catching on to the “Do not reply” and aren’t responding to the mailing list to ask what to do anymore, but for a while there it was fabulously entertaining!

  67. Mr. Tyzik*

    Interesting survey results from LeanIn.org and SurveyMonkey: 60% of male managers are afraid to have a 1-1 meeting with a woman. That’s compared to 28% last year.

    Male managers are also afraid of taking woman on business travel, or having a work lunch with her.

    How disappointing. How disgusting. #MeToo had unintended consequences and a whole group of men are scared to be basic human beings. How are women supposed to network and advance in a career?

    The answer is clear – no 1-1s, business travel, or work lunches with a man. Group work only? Maybe.

    2. Therese*

      My boss is a woman and she always meets with other employees with another manager present. Usually a guy but not always. She just feels safety wise you shouldn’t meet 1-1 with people I guess. It is a restaurant so maybe that is why.

      1. Mr. Tyzik*

        See, I would think that the restaurant setting makes it easier to meet with someone 1-1, unless she’s worried about perception of being seen out with a man. How weird.

        1. valentine*

          Ganging up on the employee makes her seem insecure and makes the issue seem bigger.

    3. Rainy days*

      It’s very sad that so many men can’t tell the difference between a professional 1-on-1 and sexual harassment. :/

      1. valentine*

        They know the difference perfectly well. They’re still golfing with rapists.

    4. Canonical23*

      I mean, if men are afraid they’re either concerned that they’ll get in trouble for doing something they shouldn’t be doing (great! Stop doing that thing) or they adhere to the idea that anything they say will be misconstrued horribly (not great, but also really says something about a man if he thinks that women are out to get him in trouble for not saying things well).

      1. Rusty Shackelford*

        or they adhere to the idea that anything they say will be misconstrued horribly

        Which strongly suggests they think men who are accused of inappropriate behavior are actually innocent, if they’re that worried about it happening to them.

        1. mobuy*

          Here’s the problem: some men actually are innocent, and some people don’t care that there are innocent men who are punished. My friend was falsely accused of rape. She’d already gotten one man kicked out of college and now was after him. He secretly recorded a conversation where she admitted the allegations were false, or he would have been next.

          Then there’s Pete Buttigieg.

          Then there’s https://reason.com/2018/10/17/seneca-valley-mean-girls-false-sexual//

          Frankly, I don’t blame men at all for protecting themselves. Here we have the Law of Unintended Consequences. Note: if a man is sexually harassing a woman, that’s bad. I’m not disagreeing. I just understand why a perfectly innocent man might want to have a witness to interactions with women. It’s very sad, but very understandable.

          1. valentine*

            I don’t blame men at all for protecting themselves.
            They’re not protecting themselves. They’re perpetuating the problem by calling women liars. These men should stay home so the rest of us don’t have to tolerate them.

    5. Elizabeth West*

      If these men can’t meet with a woman in a professional manner without jumping immediately to “Ooh, accusations,” then they don’t get the reason for #MeToo and that’s really problematic. Quite frankly, I would hate to work with someone like that, since clearly they’re not seeing me as either a colleague or even a person.

      1. Mr. Tyzik*

        I agree. Men who aren’t comfortable around women are men who see women as objects and not people.

        It’s been a bad week for women all around. :/

    7. Purple Jello*

      Maybe more male managers are aware that their behavior is, perhaps, questionable?

    8. Alpha Bravo*

      I had one department head who demanded the door be left open during any 1-1 with me. This was back in the 90s. He was both a jerk and an idiot, but it never occurred to me that he was defending against accusations of sexual harassment. I always just assumed he had picked up on my fierce desire to jack him up and tell him what I really thought of him.

    9. M. Albertine*

      The best comment I saw about that is: “60% of male managers are not qualified to be managers”

    10. IL JimP*

      This is nuts, my team is mostly woman and I have no problem meeting 1-on-1 with any of them. The #MeToo movement is awesome and opened a lot of eyes on how so many men for some reason can’t treat women as human being. All 60% of them should be demoted then out of leadership if they can’t handle it or are “scared”

      1. goducks*

        I had a boss (the CEO), pull me into his office one day to tell me that he and his wife had talked, and they had decided that he was no longer to spend 1:1 time with any female staff. He said he realized that this kind of rule has a history of disparate impact for women, so he was holding himself to that rule for all staff. No 1:1 with any staff, no travel with any staff in less than 3, no meals with any groups less than 3, no private meetings with any groups less than 3.
        When I asked him how he intended to do this, he said when he needs a third he’d pull in his (female) assistant.
        I pointed out to him that as a senior director who deals with a number of sensitive/confidential employee and finance related things, there were going to be times when I needed to have conversations with him that were not yet for anybody’s ears, including his admin.
        I also pointed out his office had a GLASS DOOR, so there was little chance that the assault accusation he feared was about to happen. He decided to talk to his wife about it.
        For the next six months, I called him on it every single time he did something private with a man. Every time. After six months, he was fired.
        Until he had that conversation with me laying out his “plan”, he’d never given me a reason to think he was a creep. After that conversation, that’s literally all I could think whenever I talked to him.

        1. IL JimP*

          What an ass, at least he got fired but it sounds like his boss let it go on too long too.

      2. Mr. Shark*

        Yup, this is just crazy. I would never even think about something like that in a 1-1 with someone who reported to me.

    11. Lilysparrow*

      A while back I heard a very apt retort to this concept of “fear” – 100 percent of working women are risking damage to their career, their reputation, or their personal safety every time they walk into a 1-on-1 meeting or travel with a male manager or co-worker. Because they never know ahead of time which ones are the perps, and which aren’t.

      The risk isn’t new. Men sharing the risk is new. Men now have to rely on trust in a way they never had to before, but women have always had to.

      1. Ann O.*

        But even if this is true in an objective sense, criticizing men for their fear doesn’t actually help us.

        IMHO, there is a legitimate issue that as #MeToo broadened from cases like Weinstein to cases like Ansari and Junot Diaz, there was no mechanism to have a real productive conversation about defining what new norms and protocols should be as well as how to balance out the need to take allegations seriously while also still recognizing that both genuine misunderstandings and malice do happen.

  68. purely financial*

    Any scripts or advice for asking for a significant raise when business is worse than usual? I’m confident in my value, being paid under market rate, and I’ve always been highly praised, but I’m nervous because we had a large layoff last October. I’ve also never negotiated a salary or increase before. The usual process is that we are called in and our salary adjustments announced to us with no discussion. I think my manager knows that if I don’t get the number I need to move forward with my personal goals (buying a house) that I will start looking elsewhere but I don’t want to rely on her negotiating with The Powers That Be for me.

    1. Frosty*

      This won’t be what you want to hear, sorry, but this sounds like terrible timing to ask.

  69. Lucette Kensack*

    Ethically, what should I do when my organization won’t reimburse for cash tips (and credit card tips aren’t a possibility)?

    I recently learned that the drivers who deliver catering orders for my program do not receive the tips that we have paid by credit card on every order. I’d like to switch to cash tips, but my organization will not allow cash to be used without getting a receipt (and a handwritten receipt by a driver won’t cut it).

    What should I do? My immediate options are to tip out of my own pocket or not tip at all. (Longer-term options include finding a new caterer and advocating for a change within my organization. Both could work; neither will help the drivers who have to deliver the next few months’ worth of orders.)

      1. Lucette Kensack*

        I’ve talked with them, and they will not be changing their policies. (They use an outside company to deliver catering orders, and that company refuses to handle tips. The tips instead are distributed in a pool to staff at the caterer. That’s actually good news — I was concerned that either the caterer or the delivery company was pocketing the tips as extra payment.)

        1. Rusty Shackelford*

          I wonder if anyone else at your employer would be willing to contribute to an unreimbursed cash tip.

          1. Lucette Kensack*

            Do you mean asking other employees to contribute to tip money?? I’m definitely not going to do that; it’s none of my colleagues’ responsibility to pay for this.

            1. Lucette Kensack*

              Whoops — I also meant to include that we’re talking about at least a couple hundred dollars a year in tips, so it’s not a trivial amount.

              1. valentine*

                Ask your employer to budget for the tips. They should be paying upfront, anyway, giving you a card and cash for the tip.

                1. Lucette Kensack*

                  My employer does budget for the tips (or rather, I do — I have budget authority), and I do use a corporate credit card. However, my employer will not, at this time, allow me to use cash to pay for a tip without getting a receipt (and a handwritten note by the driver is not sufficient).

            2. Rusty Shackelford*

              I only suggest that because you said one of your options is for you to pay the tip yourself, and surely it’s not your responsibility either.

        2. Nacho*

          Nothing wrong or unethical with a tip pool as long as it’s fair/not being paid to managers.

          1. Lucette Kensack*

            Sort of. It depends on how and how much the various employees are paid.

            In this case the delivery service they use for catering orders doesn’t allow tips to go to their drivers. The tip pool goes to restaurant employees but not the drivers who actually delivered my order. (And of course we don’t know in what manner those tips are distributed — to the folks who worked the shift when our meals were made? Anyone who worked that pay period? Is it weighted for number of hours worked? Are managers dipping in? etc.).

            I mean, this all highlights the general inequity of having a tip-based payment system. In American culture, delivery drivers are tipped and line chefs are not. That’s arbitrary and foolish. But it’s also the system we have. (Annnnnd it gets even more complicated as my city puts a $15 minimum wage with no tip credit into effect next year!)

            1. Tina Belcher's Less Cool Sister*

              I think your heart is in the right place, but you will likely never find out exactly how the tips are distributed – just like when you personally go out to eat, the tip you leave for your server (even if it’s cash) is often put into a pool, and/or the server has to “tip out” other staff such as the bartender/dish washers. The reality is that we (Americans) live in an unfair tip-based system and the only solution is advocating for long-term change and abolishing a tipped minimum wage.

              In the short term, I think you already recognize your options – advocate for your organization to change their tip policy and/or change caterers; continue to tip knowing that it will go to the restaurant staff who made the food; or cease tipping. Paying the tip in non-reimbursed cash is not a sane or sustainable solution.

            2. Tina Belcher's Less Cool Sister*

              Oh, and if the delivery company doesn’t allow their drivers to be tipped, presumably the drivers aren’t relying on tips for their income. It doesn’t mean the company is paying them well or that they’re being treated fairly, but I don’t think you need to worry about shortchanging the drivers.

  70. Ohyanno*

    I just started a new job about a month ago and just discovered that I’m unexpectedly pregnant! While my husband and I always thought we would be the type of married couple that never had kids (both of us were told we would need surgery in order to have children and we elected not to have the surgeries) we’ve actually decided to keep it. How can I handle the conversation with my new boss? By the time I give birth I wont be eligible for FMLA so I really dont understand how to go about asking for time off? Any advice??

    1. blabla*

      I started my last job 10 weeks pregnant, so I have some experience in this area. First things first, check if your state has any laws in place around paid family leave (which is about time to bond with the child, as opposed to FMLA which is about time to recover from labor and delivery). New York just passed some and it’s changing everything for my second pregnancy. Second, know that FMLA does not give you any guarantee of paid time off. All FMLA does is protects your job for up to 12 weeks while you are out. For many professional jobs, it’s not worth the hassle to rehire someone if you are only going to be out for 12 weeks, so that fact that you have FMLA or don’t have FMLA becomes kind of moot because they are not going to replace you either way. They will hold your job for 12 weeks while you are out and it will be unpaid (unless they have short-term disability coverage or another paid paternity leave policy that is due to all employees). So once you are far enough along (usually after you get the results of your first trimester screen), share the news with your boss and HR and tell them how much time you’d like to take. It doesn’t have to be less time just because you are new.

    2. Overeducated*

      Congratulations!

      As for leave, all you can do is ask. I know every workplace is different, but here are a couple of positive stories in case they provide some hope. I have a professional acquiantance who was in a similar situation, her employer said “state law mandates six weeks short term disability, so that’s what we’ll do,” and she said “no, that’s absurd, give me 12,” and they did. I have another friend who was told she could have six weeks and she said “well, I raise my own salary in this job, so I’m taking 12” and again, her employer was like “fine.” They don’t actually want to lose you, and a few months is really a blip in time, your position was probably vacant that long during the hiring process.

      That said, I’m even nervous to ask for the maximum unpaid leave I’m entitled to by law and union contract, and I know there is some chance my boss will say “sorry, we’re too understaffed,” so I feel the anxiety and wish you luck!

  71. grayber*

    Is it normal to only get 40 hours of vacation after you’ve worked at a company for 2 years? I’m only a few months in to my first legitimate office job so I’m not really sure of the norms yet! But we don’t begin /accruing/ vacation hours until we’ve been with the company for a full year, so instead of getting 40 hours immediately once I hit a year I’ll get 10 hours after a year and a quarter, 20 after a year and a half, etc.

    I’m 99% sure this is the company being stingy (we don’t even get Memorial Day off, despite not being a necessary industry/not being customer facing at all) but I want to be sure before I add it to the list of reasons to start job hunting early!

    1. NOT a writer*

      So you get no vacay time your first 12 months there? Do you get personal days? Are they just expecting your first year you won’t take any days off?

      Seems really weird to me.

      1. grayber*

        We do not get personal days! We’re mostly remote as of right now so sick days are unpaid and only for times when you can’t sit up, ha ha.

        1. NOT a writer*

          This all sounds crazy. At my company we get three personal days at the start of the fiscal year then begin accruing vacay and sick leave as we work. I believe at the end of the first year, if we hadn’t used anything from vacation or sick, we would have two weeks of leave. The longer you work here, the more leave you accrue each month. I’m up to almost two months of vacation time because I’ve worked here so long (and never take leave, which is a whole different issue…)

        2. Fortitude Jones*

          My team is mostly remote, and we all still get 10 paid sick days that roll over, 1 or 2 paid personal days depending on what time of year you were hired (I got 2), and I negotiated 15 vacation days my first year up from 10 – accruals happen once you start and can be used after six months from your date of hire (or your management can exempt you from this and you can start taking your days whenever you want). You need to be job searching – your company’s leave policy sucks.

    2. KeepIt*

      40 hours is only a week, right? That seems low in comparison to what other companies (in the US) usually offer…2 weeks total seems to be a norm once you’ve established yourself at a company.

      Although tbh, AAM has really put into perspective for me that having absolutely no paid vacation time is actually not good/an oddity lol (I’ve never had any paid vacation offered)

      1. grayber*

        I haven’t ever had paid vacation either, which is why I’ve been hesitant to bring it up to anyone in my company. A week after 2 years seemed really generous after not getting any benefits… ever! But AAM has been an eye opener about this for sure.

    3. Adlib*

      I’ve had jobs where you get a week after one year, but you got all 40 hours immediately. I don’t really think it’s the norm now, and that weird accrual is not helping anyone. Not getting Memorial Day off is especially weird because it’s a major holiday that most companies take off! Leaving people with few options for rest is a good way to burn them out!

      If you have reviews coming up, I’d say you can see about getting more at that time, but honestly, it sounds like you should look.

      1. grayber*

        I get my first review/performance one-on-one at 8 months, so if I’m still here I’ll definitely bring it up! In the meantime I’ll probably be taking your advice to look around for something less likely to lead to burnout.

    4. Elizabeth West*

      That’s insanely low. Yes, they’re stingy AF.

      I realize in my current situation I can’t afford to be picky, but I wouldn’t stay long at a company with so little PTO. That’s no better than a food service crap job.

    5. Nicki Name*

      What’s “normal” depends on your country and your industry. But in general, that sounds stingy even for the US!

      1. grayber*

        Oh, I should have mentioned, but yes! I am in the US, in PR and communications. I’m glad to know that I’m not just imagining the stinginess.

    6. WellRed*

      Being remote should not mean no paid sick days(!), not getting Memorial day off is EXTREMELY unusual, and yes, 40 hours of vacation is a joke.

  72. Adlib*

    I posted a couple weeks ago saying I was looking at a job that I wasn’t 100% thrilled about, but I had a vendor who potentially wanted to hire me but wouldn’t because of the client relationship with my company.

    Update: I took the job because I have since met 2 people who used to work there but LOVED the place. I got a decent salary bump, negotiated another week of PTO, and am so excited to start on the 28th! (I also get to leave some toxic people I work with!)

    Also? The vendor hasn’t contacted me about hiring, and it sounds like they won’t from what I’m hearing.

    Thanks for your input everyone!

  73. Detective Raichu*

    On last week’s thread I made a post about my new job hiring a former colleague who was a nightmare to work with. Original post here: https://www.askamanager.org/2019/05/open-thread-may-10-11-2019.html#comment-2473181 . Some of her best (worst) moments:

    1. Getting drunk at a company party and calling me “socially r-tarded,” a “serial killer,” and saying the cops should search my house for body parts.
    2. Giving me a bad 360 review when I went to HR about that.
    3. Blowing up at a Dominican guy we worked with because “his culture is misogynistic.”
    4. Making similar comments about the Russians in the office, but not to their faces (I am Russian but was born in the USA, so I speak Russian with an American accent).

    I spoke with my boss about this Tuesday. He was sympathetic, but worried about the legality of revoking the offer. He also said he’d keep an eye on her for her first few months to make sure everything was going okay. So unfortunately, it looks like nightmare ex-colleague won’t be an ex-colleague any more. I let it die there because I don’t want to go against him, but TBH I am still worried about having to work with her again.

    It’s not just that I had unpleasant experiences working with her, but because she could pose a legal problem for the company with her behavior (the racist rant at the Dominican guy at our old company). I’ve been considering telling HR or our legal team (it’s a startup, but a larger one, so they literally work right next to me) about this but I don’t know how to do that without it looking like I’m going over my boss’ head. And also it might be too late for her, because she might’ve already submitted her resignation at her current job.

    Any advice is appreciated. Thanks.

    1. lawschoolmorelikeblawschool*

      I am not an expert, but if I were in your position I’d wait and see how things go. It’s possible she has become a completely different person, or, more likely is still horrible, but you did what you should be raising it with your boss. Sorry for the situation, hopefully it won’t ruin your work environment.

    2. Koala dreams*

      That’s awful! I’m boggled that the boss is more worried of the legalities of firing this employee than he is of the rascist rants and other bullying behaviour. Of course you have to decide for yourself if you can risk the relationship with your boss, but from the outside, it looks very much warranted to bring this up with HR.

      1. Detective Raichu*

        So, my boss loves me. Point in my favor. We get on well enough that I was considering saying something like “I worked with Gruntilda for a year, and honestly, I’d rather find a new job than work with her again,” but I didn’t.

        The company that me and Gruntilda worked together at was not a good place to work, and I’ve spent a lot of time reflecting on how I can handle any work environment — not just this one, which I love — with utter professionalism 100% of the time. As I very vaguely referenced (her “socially r-tarded” remarks), I’m on the autism spectrum and slightly awkward, and I don’t think that’s an excuse, and I also don’t want to share that with people at work. Thankfully, that’s paid off, and when people from other offices have visited, they’ve mentioned that it’s great that we have really nice people like me at this office. Maybe she’ll be more bearable in a better work environment.

        Also, Gruntilda’s now-husband isn’t working for us. So if she gets drunk and starts a scene or says something racist, the company can write her up or fire her without the threat of losing two people.

        Unfortunately, I am gonna be working with her again, I don’t like her, and it’s a possibility that someone starts putting in anonymous complaints against me after she starts. I’ve updated my resume just in case.

    4. WellRed*

      How clear were you with boss about the issues? I also agree with last week’s comments that revoking a job offer isn’t really grounds for a lawsuit in most cases. However, if that’s the stance your boss wants to take, keep in mind that if he’s afraid of getting sued for that, he’ll be afraid of getting sued if it becomes necessary to take any action after she’s on board.

      1. valentine*

        He should be afraid of getting sued by her next targets for hiring her despite this appalling history. I would mention that to him and share my concerns with HR. She’s going to make you look like the bad guy. No one will understand why you’re not warm or fuzzy and you can’t say, “Well, she’s a racist fiend.”

        1. Detective Raichu*

          I’m gonna see if I can talk to HR Monday morning since time is important here.

          I am worried about them being reluctant to act because they already sent her an offer, and she probably sent it back signed. I guess that puts her in a bad place because she’s probably also put in her notice, but she could’ve avoided it by just, you know, not telling other people that their culture is sexist and they should be ashamed, because she’s unhappy at work.

          At our last company, she was literally the most senior person in our department, having transferred in from another one after they formed it, and I was one of the most junior when she went on the drunken “you’re probably a psycho serial killer and the cops should search your apartment for body parts” rant. So hopefully it won’t play out like last time.

  74. NOT a writer*

    How do you get people to understand what duties are NOT part of your job?

    I’m a teapot designer, not a teapot marketer. I happen to be ok at condensing/clarifying marketing copy, but I don’t excel at writing it from scratch and I’m not an expert in our various audiences to know how to craft messaging that is compelling to them. I keep getting jobs where not only do I have to design the teapots, I also have to come up with the copy to market them. It takes me a long time to develop the copy and it’s honestly not as good as what one of our marketers could come up with.

    I’ve talked to my boss who seems to get it—I’ve brought up how it takes up my time when I could be designing (something our clients and marketers CAN’T do), my messaging is unfocused, typos are introduced because I’m not trained as a proofreader, etc. but nothing is really changing.

    I think part of it is that our marketers are swamped with their own projects (that largely don’t involve design at all) and that the teapot clients who could provide a rough draft of copy just…don’t.

    But the result is that what I know could be a good product ends up being hampered by my limitations as a writer and what goes out into the world just isn’t as good as I know it could be. It’s a waste of our time and money in my opinion.

  75. Hopeful Future Accountant*

    So, I have 1 more year before I get my associate’s degree in accounting (and then hopefully will be going straight on to a bachelor’s degree). I’m hoping that I’ll soon be able to start applying for internships/jobs. I have a service dog and my question is, those of you who have service dogs, how do you handle interviewing with them? Have you found it’s impacted how interviewers treat you (even subconsciously)?

    1. boredatwork*

      As a current accountant, this would be a total non-issue in any of the office’s I’ve worked at. In my experience accounting firms try to be very open and accommodating (even the small ones).

      In the interview, I would just say “this is “charlie” he’s my full time service dog”. That’s it, if they start prying for personal information in the interview, well you just learned a lot about that firm.

      Also, are people allowed to pet your dog, because that’s really the question I’d want answered.

      1. Hopeful Future Accountant*

        Unfortunately, no, they are not allowed to pet him when he’s on duty (anytime we’re out in public). He needs to focus on me and I can’t risk him becoming distracted.

        He’s a standard poodle and his name is Fidelis, if you were wondering. He’s a good boy and takes his job very seriously. He turns 3 at the end of July and we are finishing his training in the next couple weeks.

        1. boredatwork*

          Yeh that’s usually the case with real service dogs vs “airplane companion animals”. I really don’t see this being an issue in an interview. Some people are nosy and will want to know why you have him and where you got him, but that’s really up to you to share.

    2. The Man, Becky Lynch*

      Just enter it like you would enter any other place in life with your service animal. Does he wear a vest? I know it’s not required but I find that if you have that on him in this kind of situation it’s glaringly obvious that you have a need for the dog to be with you and it’s none of their business the actual reason behind it.

      Introduce him. If he has a vest, I know many say “On Duty, please don’t pet” or something similar, so that would just make it so much easier for your life than explaining it time and time again.

      1. Hopeful Future Accountant*

        He does have a vest. The vest does not say any variation of “On Duty, please don’t pet”, though. The non profit he’s from give their teams super simple vests (it’s a super tiny non profit and doesn’t have a lot of funds). I do plan to get an add on patch that says that, though, which is allowed by the non profit.

    3. Ali G*

      When I was interviewing last year, it was pretty common for the person setting up the interview to ask me if I needed any accommodations for the interview. Either in answer to that question, or on your own, I would give them a head’s up. Something like “I just wanted to make you aware that I have a service dog accompanying me. S/he is on duty, so I ask that you don’t try to pet him/her.”

  76. Therese*

    My husband and I work at a local restaurant. I’m the bookkeeper so my job is pretty secure but he is a host. Recently they cut his hours. No one has ever said anything about his work to him. He pushed and questioned it and they were like the schedule is based on performance blah blah blah.

    Then he met with our boss and gave him a bunch of reasons that just seemed like she was grasping for straws. They did say well some days he doesn’t seem as into it as others. But my thing is okay fine he isn’t always on the ball but then why don’t you tell him? I think it’s rude to just cut peoples hours so they get a “hint” that they are a bad employee. (He isn’t the only one they do this to..they do it to other people as well.) I guess this is more of a rant but it just makes me mad when managers aren’t honest and give employees feedback. If you don’t tell people what they are doing wrong they aren’t going to be able to improve their performance…especially b/c about 1/2 the staff here this is their first job ever.

    1. Rainy days*

      Aw, that really sucks. I agree that is a very crappy way to manage. I wonder if this manager is dealing with a lot of turnover–it’s not a good excuse, but that’s one situation where people start to feel like it’s not worth it to invest in employees (which of course can just exacerbate the turnover problem).

      If the manager doesn’t know how to manage, your husband may have to manage her management of him, if that makes sense. He can be proactive about approaching her to ask for feedback, ask what a great shift would look like from her perspective, and so on.

  77. Alli*

    Hi! Just wanted to follow up and thank the community – after discussion on the LGBT+ open thread a few weeks ago covered coming out as trans at work, I had a meeting with HR earlier this week using some of the resources that folks on the thread provided and it went really, really well. Thanks to everyone who commented with resources and advice!

  78. Canonical23*

    I had my annual performance evaluation. Apparently finishing projects on time means “I’m looking to leave.” My boss made me promise that I’m going to stay for awhile. It’s not a great situation, but c’e’ la vie.

    Here’s the thing though, my spouse is interviewing for a job across the state that he’ll take if he gets. So I guess: 1) How do you handle going back on your word when it’s probably gonna burn some bridges (I’d like to stay in my field, but I’m not tied to it) and 2) what advice do people have on a couple going through their first Big Move when selling a house, me finding a job, etc is there to complicate things?

    1. MadCheetos*

      Firstly, your boss’s reasoning makes no sense whatsoever. Secondly, I would not have promised to stay, especially under your circumstances. He shouldn’t be asking for promises anyway, but I think now you might put yourself in an awkward situation. If you do end up deciding to leave, you might just have to calmly explain that your plans changed.

    2. Zephy*

      Re “going back on your word” – you don’t owe this company anything. Don’t say anything until the ink is dry on your spouse’s offer, of course, but any reasonable manager will understand that you can’t stay if your spouse gets a job elsewhere. And any reasonable hiring manager will understand that, as well.

    3. Ethyl*

      I mean, it’s gonna be awkward but your boss should never have asked you to promise that. Loyalty isn’t for work relationships. Your company would never be “loyal” to you in the way your boss wants you to be “loyal” to the company. He demanded something unreasonable (and for really weird reasons), and if he got in return was you saying what he needed to hear to keep your job for now, that’s not really on you.

      Do you have other folks there who can be a reference for you? I’d start lining that up now maybe.

    4. Colette*

      “Hi Boss, I have some news. My spouse had a wonderful job drop into his lap, and he’s going to take it. Unfortunately, that means we need to move across the state. As you know, I’d been hoping to stay in this job, but this is the right move for our family, so I’m going to have to resign. My last day will be X.”

  79. lalala*

    hi! i need some advice. i manage a team of 6 for an independent “teapot” company, so think handmade manufacturing, shipping, and then some ops/account/admin work. everyone is super laid back (majority are artists) and i never have any issues, therefore i have almost no experience in having to discipline them. in my previously managerial positions, i was “supervisor” or “assistant manager” so i actually never had to actually provide any tough feedback, discipline, etc.

    i have one employee who is consistently late, at least 20-30 min every day, some days up to an hour. most days he’ll shoot me a text if he is running late. he is great at his job, a cool person overall, and his job does not depend on him being here at 9 AM. however, at least three times in the past 6 months he has showed up over two hours late, usually not communicating with me until after 10:30 that his phone had died, he overslept, etc. etc. again, this doesn’t actually affect his job but i think it’s setting a bad example for others. i also feel like i’m not doing my job by letting this slide continually. any advice on what to say or HOW to say it?

    1. Auntie Social*

      One thing I’ve noticed is when people are no longer interested in their jobs, they start coming in later and later. So I’d ask if they still like their position, and then mention the bad example thing. Over 2 hours late is quite something unless he has a chronic condition—migraines or something. The oversleeping, phone died, etc. all sound very college freshman to me. You do what you need to do to be at work on time–gas in your car, don’t drink all night, charge your phone. You’re a grownup.

    2. Middle Manager*

      If it doesn’t really matter at all what time he’s there, could you switch to a flex schedule? Something like, everyone is expected to work 8 hours a day between 7am-7pm?

    3. Federal Middle Manager*

      “This doesn’t actually affect his job but i think it’s setting a bad example for others.”

      This is the piece you need to really figure out BEFORE you take any action. What are your overall workplace expectations? Would it be okay if everyone came in 30 min. late? Would it be okay if everyone with this artist’s type job came in late? Do you clock-watch for some employees and not others, and if so, are the reasons some people are given extra leeway legitimate reasons and not based on race/gender/age/friendship?

      Finally, if you decide you need to say something to the artist, you need to be willing to back up your words with consequences.

    4. dealing with dragons*

      I hope I’m not too late, but on the other side of this there might be health issues. I have an autoimmune thyroid condition so sometimes I get super sleepy and it’s really hard to wake up. Sometimes I’m not sleepy at all so I have to medicate to sleep and it’s also hard to get up. Before diagnosis I was sleeping about 16 hours a day and could have slept more if I was able.

  80. Al*

    My husband got his degree in Theatre (stage management), but has spent most of his post-college life working in academic libraries. He’s been at his current university library for 11 years. Due to managers who flatly refuse to get rid of incompetent employees and a lack of advancement opportunities, he’s been very unhappy there for a while now. The trouble is, he can’t move up much in this field without an MLS, and he doesn’t want to invest that kind of money & energy with an uncertain payoff … especially since this isn’t his calling, but a job he stumbled into thanks to work-study during his undergrad. So, does anyone have brainstorming ideas for other fields & business to job-hunt in for a stage manager who has worked in university libraries for 15 years?

    1. Minerva McGonagall*

      Is there any part specifically of his job that he does like? Like if he really enjoys working with and helping students, maybe a position in another University department may be a fit.

    2. MayLou*

      From my own limited experience, both of those fields require the sort of transferable skills that would be very useful in administration and project management. Rather than thinking about specific job titles or careers, he might consider what aspects of work he enjoys and what requirements he has for a work role, and build from there.

      What are his interests? That might also provide a steer towards certain fields (for instance, I just got a job partly as an administrator and my education and stage management backgrounds are definitely helping me with the actual work, but my nerdy hobby of budgeting and personal finance definitely provided the door into the field (debt advice).

      1. Al*

        Thanks! I appreciate the suggestions!

        His interests tend to be in the science fiction & video game areas, which are fun, but not as marketable as budgeting. :)

  81. Marion Q*

    My team consists of people in their twenties, and the majority is women (of which I am one). There’s a women-only Slack channel, which is cringy, but still somewhat acceptable.

    This Friday, the other women excitedly started planning a sleepover.

    I honestly still don’t know how I managed not to gasp in horror when I read the discussion in our slack channel.

    Even worse, one of them is our manager.

    I’m just going to start thinking of excuses not to come.

    1. Rainy days*

      Ugh, what? I don’t think a women-only slack channel is acceptable (I am a woman).

      1. Arielle*

        Really? If it’s professional (and not about planning sleepovers) I don’t see why it’s any different than, say, the Society for Women Engineers. Ours is mostly used to share articles about women in tech.

        1. AnnieK*

          Hope you see this, I’ve been thinking on this one–how big is your women-only channel? Because I can see both Rainy days’ point-of-view and yours, and I think it’s partially a size thing.

          Society of Women Engineers and other orgs are big industry-wide groups. But the smaller you go, the less it feels like “generally bolstering women” and more like “specifically excluding men”. It’s easier for a team-sized channel to become cliquey and sleepover-having, but an “all women in the company” feels more network-y.

          Also, why not share those articles with men too? (Not intending that to be accusatory, hope that’s clear. It’s just I feel like we spend a lot of our time preaching to the choir.)

        2. The New Wanderer*

          It’s a problem if the slack channel is excluding a minority. The company is majority-women, the slack channel excludes men. And since they’re discussing a sleepover, it’s not professional. Even if it were exclusively focused on “professional issues that only or primarily affect women” it would be iffy at best since, presumably, those issues would be less of a problem at a majority-women company. Not to say that couldn’t be the case (for example if the execs were all or mostly male or the company policies disproportionately affect women), but optics-wise excluding a minority in a workplace is bad.

        3. Sparkelle*

          So if the men (including a manager) start a Slack channel to plan golf outings (no girls allowed!) that would be OK?

        4. Marion Q*

          I think it depends on whether the field is male-dominated or not. In STEM fields, where women are still minority, having a women-only group is fine, especially for help in networking and support. In a “feminine” field like mine, though, I think a women-only slack channel perpetuates gender stereotypes, as in “of course the female nurses only hang out with each other” kind of thing. (I’m not actually a nurse, but my field is similar in its gender composition).

    2. lawschoolmorelikeblawschool*

      If I got an invite I’d be tempted to reply with, oh, what’s the date? Presumably sometime in 1991 when I was 8? (I wouldn’t really but that was my immediate reaction)

    3. Lilysparrow*

      You don’t need an excuse. Excuses only give people a reason to argue with you.

      Just saying “No thanks, but y’all have fun,” is fine.

      The reason, if they press for one, is “That’s not for me. Thanks anyway!”

      1. Marion Q*

        I’d love to, but I’m still the newest member of the team, and on our first 1-1, my manager already implied that some of the team were hurt that I didn’t seem to want to be friends with them, so I thought it’d be safer for me to pretend as if I want to go, but something come up instead.

        Or maybe I’m overthinking this?

        1. Business Librarian*

          Now we’re into red-flag territory. In a management meeting, you got the feedback that ‘you didn’t want to be friends’ and there were hurt feelings? I’d be very wary of everything here. It sounds like the manager doesn’t want a team, she wants to finally get the group of friends she didn’t have in middle school. And the sleepover is now even creepier. I think you’re right about the safe way to handle this. And also ewwwww.

  82. Lucette Kensack*

    I manage a program that pulls in staff from across our large company. I am the project manager, but not the manager of any of the involved staff, which is a very normal structure in my organization.

    I’m struggling to figure out how to handle a person who started recently joined my project team. Fundamentally, the problem is that she makes assumptions about what to do and doesn’t ask for clarification or help when she doesn’t know how to handle something (or maybe it’s more that she doesn’t have a good sense of when she doesn’t understand something and should ask someone else for information). Either way, she makes a lot of basic mistakes that we could have headed off at the pass if she had hit pause and gotten support.

    Example: A customer asked a question about how much something costs. She responded with the wrong price. When I asked her why she gave that answer, she explained her calculations – but she shouldn’t have had to make any calculations; it’s a set price. It’s fine that she didn’t know the price, but I’m not sure why she came up with her own answer rather than just asking me or someone else who would have the answer. (Not to mention that her reasoning was way off – not the actual math, but what did and didn’t include as she did her calculations.)

    Example: She included the wrong data in a public report. In context, I would have thought it was obvious that she should only use data for one category. Imagine, e.g., that she was making a report for the Teddy Bear Sales Association about how their sales have changed over time; she included data for all toys, which changed the storyline (i.e., teddy bears are selling great, but other toys are selling poorly, so her report was about how toy sales are down – true overall, but not relevant to this group because they only sell teddy bears).

    I’ve handled each issue on its own, but I’m not sure what I should be doing to head these problems off at the pass. Any ideas?

    1. Some Sort of Management Consultant*

      Ouch, I empathize a lot with your employee!
      Is she new to the workforce?

      “Fundamentally, the problem is that she makes assumptions about what to do and doesn’t ask for clarification or help when she doesn’t know how to handle something (or maybe it’s more that”
      This was me my first two years of work. Like EVERY quarter I got feedback on it, and I still struggle with it sometimes. For me, it was a combination of ADD and guilt but mostly because I was straight out of college and so used to having to do it all on my own. At least where I went to school, it was very much every person for themselves. If you failed an exam not matter why, tough luck, you failed. You personally were a failure and there was no one else to blame for it.
      Going from there to a job where I wasn’t expected to just struggle in silence was a huge difference. I felt I was a bad employee for not figuring things out on my own. I didn’t realize that my team not only wanted to help me, they expected me to tell them when I was struggling, even if it was because I’d planned something badly.

      Depending on her seniority, I’d also be wary about labeling tasks as obvious. Even if they are, being told that she should just have realized it herself if she didn’t makes it less likely she’ll ask for help next time.

      1. Lucette Kensack*

        No, she’s not new to the workforce. She has about five years of experience and the required advanced education for her field.

        How can I help her? What would have helped you?

        (Also, I’ve never told her or implied that she “should have just realized it herself,” because that’s not at all helpful — but I do believe that. Making up a price when you didn’t know what it was is a pretty easy error to avoid.)

        1. Some Sort of Management Consultant*

          The following advice is probably only relevant if your employee actually feels the way I did, instead of simply being bad at her job. She might just be bad at her job.

          If you think something is obvious, she probably gets that vibe even if you don’t say it outright.

          I think the most helpful thing for me has been managers asking about what I’m doing and “forcing me” to detail my workload. They accepted any stupid question I’ve asked and praised and encouraged me when I’ve actually asked for help or a clarification.

          1. Some Sort of Management Consultant*

            Basically, they’ve created an environment where I have to discuss my workload and my progress with them, and where they not only want me to ask for help, they expect it. Then they’ve followed up on that and actually helped me when I needed it.

            (I’m not saying you’re not doing that. But workplaces in my past have not been so good about it.)

            1. Lucette Kensack*

              Hmm. This is interesting. I’m not her manager, and I’m not able to handhold her through basic things — but I can set an expectation that she keep me in the loop on what she’s working on (so I can notice places she may be going astray before she does) and that she asks before finalizing things.

              I’m not sure what to do with your suggestion that it’s a problem to believe that something is obvious. Some things are obvious! I can’t change my perception that it’s obvious that she shouldn’t make up a price without asking the folks who have the knowledge she doesn’t have.

    2. Auntie Social*

      Tell her good support structures are in place so she doesn’t have to reinvent the wheel–like the price she pulled out of her backside. Show her where prices are kept in the office. Assume that the answer already exists: if she’s not sure everyone is happy to answer a question, but don’t come from “I must make this up”.
      As far as the writing, that seems to come from making it up too. Show her that the report was solely on teddy bears, so including info about Transformers or Barbies did not help and actually made the company look worse. If generally toy sales were down but bear sales were up that’s info to include, but everything in the report has to be about teddy bears. So she’ll be turning in her work for you or someone to review for a while, to make sure she gets it. Maybe give her old annual statements to read to give her the idea. But you’re right, at present there’s something wrong with her focus ability.

      1. Some Sort of Management Consultant*

        Yes! Gosh, you said it better than I could in a million years!

      3. Gumby*

        The worst aspect of this is that she’s not just making mistakes – that happens – but her mistakes are being sent to the public. These two examples show that she is not ready for that level of responsibility. So perhaps have a rule that *nothing* she does is allowed to go outside of the company/project team/whatever makes sense without a second pair of eyes on it. At least for now.

  83. RobotWithHumanHair*

    I have a confession to make. I HATE training people. I always have. Even if it’s training someone that will, ultimately, make my job easier. If I was able to print out an instruction sheet for said trainee and go totally hands off to leave them to their work, I’d totally do it. I’m a bit of a misanthrope, but I don’t show it at work. Socially anxious and all that too, but again, I mask it at work. How on earth do I get over this?

    1. Zephy*

      Training people to do a thing involves a whole separate set of skills on top of the skills needed to do the thing in the first place. It’s also just, so very painful to watch someone struggle with something you think is easy. A good chunk of my job is doing exactly that – helping people fill out certain forms…I can do it in my sleep, because I do it all day, but some people have never seen it before.

      The best thing would probably be if someone else could take over training duties, but I’m sure if that were an option you wouldn’t have needed to post. Maybe if you had a more structured training process, that would take some of the pressure off? Not just “babysit the new hire until they get it,” but actual concrete goals and expectations of what someone should be able to do without supervision after X/Y/Z days in a role (10/30/90 or whatever breakdown makes sense for you), supported by a detailed training manual.

    2. Federal Middle Manager*

      Training is all about compassion and making connections. You have to have compassion for both of you, because it’s awkward for everyone to be telling an adult how to do something. And you have to make connections between what they know how to do (word process, arithmetic, design, etc) and what you need them to do (your company’s reports, ledgers, product pitches). I get that for a socially anxious misanthrope, it might not be your cup of tea.

      Here are some tips however:
      – It’s better to over-explain than under-explain. You’re not insulting your audience by reviewing basic processes, you are helping them understand where your processes diverge from the industry basics.
      – Spend time explaining how the thing you’re training someone to do fits into the big picture. For example, who touches this work before it gets to the trainee and who does it go to afterward? What will those people be modifying / looking for?
      – Always include examples of work done correctly and common errors/aberrations.
      – Be clear if there is room for creativity/individuality in this process or if rigid conformity is expected.
      – Include tips that helped you when you were first learning the process. This is both useful to a new person and humanizes you as someone who once had to learn these things too.

  84. Professional Merchandiser*

    Last week I asked for advice for my grand-daughter who’s planning to go into welding. Got some good responses but haven’t looked in the last few days to see what’s new.
    One of the questions I asked was how to locate work wear sized for women. After I posted, I did what I should have done to begin with and googled. What can I say? I’m an old lady and I’m not used to thinking of google as first try. I found some really good ones. One I liked was called Safety Girl and they had all kinds of things, including some of the cutest pink work boots I’ve ever seen. Not everything on their site is pink and girly, but if that’s what you want there’s plenty to choose from. They also have garden-variety stuff but sized for women. Wanted to share in case anyone else needs to know. And thank you again for comments and advice.

    1. Seeking Second Childhood*

      Do ask her before you order pink gear. She might like it – but she might take flack in some places.
      I got a pair of steel-toed caterpillar work boots for myself (we were taking down some trees). But if I hadn’t had such hard feet to fit, I’d have ordered the purple ones I saw on amazon from King’s/Honeywell. Weirdly I am now only seeing purple as a much taller boot from….Caterpillar. How cool is that.

  85. The Man, Becky Lynch*

    A former report/colleague that I gave a reference to and was freaking out about got the job, so I know I didn’t fail so hard they were all “Oh no no no, stinky references, neeeeeeeext.” [I have a huge problem with over thinking things/anxiety attacks over things that are big-deals in my life and others]. So I’m so excited that the Devil Company we both worked for now has had complete turnover since I left over a year ago. Validation to the ends of the earth that it wasn’t me like the former owner tried to hang on my neck. Even with new management, the place had bad ghosts floating around and we all needed our new start. I’m so excited for my friend and also selfish AF just knowing I want that place gutted.

    2. Seeking Second Childhood*

      Toxic gets its own reward – and you were part of the method to deliver it. Congrats to your friend!

  86. Vacation?*

    I’ve been at my job for about a year and a half and when I got the offer I negotiated to take 2 weeks off for a family event in a foreign country relatively early on. While I was away my boss said he’d be my backup, but it turned out that he just kept a long list of things that came up that I needed to take care of when I got back. I figured this was because I was new and he wanted to make sure I knew how to take care of all of these things and introduce me to people I’d be working with on them.

    Fast forward to now: last week I took my first vacation since then. Again while I was away, my boss was supposed to be my backup, and again he just kept a long list of things that came up that were taken care of by my role and at about 9am on Monday morning I got a talking to about needing to take care of all of them RIGHT AWAY. He distinctly told me before I left not to check my email, and yet he emailed me asking for things URGENTLY while I was gone, and then this came up on Monday. While none of these things were particularly difficult or time-sensitive (it’s my slow season, hence why I scheduled vacation), there were a few that it would be best for me to take care of. The rest… could have been taken care of last week while I was away. Easily. Now I feel like I am floundering under a pile of undone work, and it’s really frustrating.

    My question is, what is the best way to bring up vacation coverage with my boss? I truly believe that he thinks that what he is doing is “covering”. I totally get that there are things that will come up while I’m away that I need to take care of when I get back, but basically nothing got done while I was gone. This was not in alignment with my expectations based on conversations with him previously, or the general culture of my workplace. I have a meeting with him this morning about some projects I am working on and I would like to bring this up, but I’m having a hard time coming up with wording that doesn’t make me sound whiny. Suggestions appreciated!

    1. The Man, Becky Lynch*

      I think you should set up a meeting with him discuss your vacation coverage and ask him to clarify his reason for just letting things pile up for you like that. You have the right to assume you won’t come back to a pile of notes and “urgent” requests that were sent the week before! I would frame in the way of “I would like to discuss my vacation coverage, as I think we have different ideas of what that should look like. I was under the impression you’d handle the requests as they came in so I wouldn’t have to rush to answer them when I arrived. Is this what I should expect moving forward or can we adjust this so that you can answer some of these requests so I don’t have such a backlog when I return? I find it can be stressful to come back to a pile of work after a vacation taken to unwind and reset my batteries.”

      Do it in the form of “getting on the same page” and “I want to work together on this and appreciate your coverage but can we tweak it next time?”

      I had this happen once when a report went on vacation and let details on how to proceed with her duties that would need to be handled. She gave this whole “how to” to the boss/person doing the coverage. And guess who didn’t read it or do a darn thing? Only that was because the boss was an inept person who naturally couldn’t be bothered to actually do the job…which I’m assuming that your boss isn’t because that’s not the norm!

    2. Eleanor Shellstrop*

      Maybe something like “My understanding of our coverage agreement was that you would take care of X while I was gone, to avoid tasks piling up. It sounds like we are not on the same page about this – could you please give me more detail on how you’d like this coverage to be handled?” Not sure how to work in the “I was told I didn’t need to check email” thing but I’m sure others will have thoughts.

    3. Lucette Kensack*

      This sounds pretty normal to me (in a job where it’s not necessary that certain tasks happen at specific dates/times). Your work doesn’t progress while you’re gone; you’re going to come back to whatever you would have gotten done had you been in the office last week. (This makes sense, right? Your boss’ time is better spent on his own work, not on yours.)

      That being said, it’s a crappy thing about our current work culture. It makes the weeks before and after a vacation more stressful — I’ve certainly had vacations where I realized, in retrospect, that the time off wasn’t worth the extra hassle.

      1. Iron Chef Boyardee*

        “Your boss’ time is better spent on his own work, not on yours.”

        That may be, but in this case the boss said he’d be OP’s backup, and I inferred that to mean he’d cover while OP was out.

        1. Lucette Kensack*

          Right, but “cover” doesn’t mean “do everything you would have done were you in the office” (and can’t really, unless the boss is going to work an extra 40ish hours while she’s away). It means “handle the things that absolutely must happen while you are unavailable.”

      2. fhqwhgads*

        That makes sense in a lot of jobs, but then I wouldn’t expect someone to say they’d be the “backup” or framing it as vacation coverage while someone was gone. Having a backup implies the backup will do some of the things while the person is gone. Definitely it’s normal that some tasks might be best to wait and let them be done by the normal task owner, especially if they’re not urgent, but the urgent stuff sure seems like someone in the office should’ve been doing it. At minimum the boss is sending a mixed message here.

    4. Auntie Social*

      Ask about a temp, or giving your work to Alex down the hall, because the last vacay “coverage” hasn’t worked for either of us. All Boss had time to do is make lists, I came back to 200 things marked ‘urgent!’, neither is good. So a temp–ask other people in your office what temp they’ve used.

  87. Canonical23*

    (I hope it’s okay to ask a second question – semi-related to the first) Does anyone have experience with freelancing, particularly writing or web design? A lot of the advice seems to be focused on people who have already built up a portfolio – due to proprietary agreements, my work at my jobs are in a very grey area for portfolio display and I don’t really want to tackle that grey area.

    2. Bananatiel*

      I’m a designer and I’ve seen mentions on portfolio sites that say “more work available to view upon request for privacy reasons” or something like that. That’s not particularly elegant phrasing since I can’t remember exactly what I’ve seen now but I know it’s done. Oftentimes I’ll get access to a password-protected page on their site to view the other work. Or some kind of private dropbox folder (though the dropbox presentation leaves something to be desired)

      Obviously the ideal is to get your portfolio to a place where it looks and feels complete without having to have half of it under lock and key but if you have no choice, you have no choice! If the work is SO secret you can’t even show it on a one-to-one basis then you have to tackle the problem as though you were a beginning designer with no portfolio and seek out work through your network until you have a good body of work to publicly show (though, going to/through your network is rarely ever a bad idea for a starting place in creative fields)

    3. Reba*

      I’ve seen a graphic design portfolio that was mostly made up work for made up clients, to show their skills, with “published work available on request” (i.e. client work). I’m not sure if that strategy is applicable to your situation, but it does happen.

    4. Mephyle*

      If it’s possible and practical, you can make up some new samples of your work; i.e. for hypothetical, not real clients – similar to things you have done, but with the specifics fictionalized enough and the details original enough that it doesn’t violate proprietary agreements.

      1. Mephyle*

        Exactly what Reba was suggesting – but I didn’t see it until I had posted, too.

  88. AnotherAlison*

    Just here barely working at home today. I started to come down with a cold Monday night, had all-day internal meetings on Tuesday and an all-day client meeting on Wednesday. I made it through, but one of my counterparts kept asking me to elaborate on XYZ in the meeting, and I’m just like, “Dude, I can’t get a sentence out of my mouth without a coughing fit. You know what you want said. You say it.” I had PTO on my calendar today anyway, and wasn’t going to take it because I’m very busy right now, but I didn’t feel like spending another day in the office trying to pretend I felt fine.

    I don’t get sick very often and I keep feeling worse each day am weirdly surprised this is hanging around and I am not magically better yet, lol.

    2. CupcakeCounter*

      Hubs has had it for 2 weeks and I hit the 1 week mark today. Buckle down…this one’s a long ride!

  89. Little Beans*

    My boss gets visibly frustrated with her boss and it makes everyone uncomfortable.

    Sometimes it is just little sighs, or the look on her face that says she is exasperated. One time, she threw up her hands, walked out of a meeting, and then came back a few minutes later and apologized (her boss wasn’t in this meeting, but we’d been telling her about something he said). Most recently, they had a verbal disagreement in front of a group of staff, she remained visibly irritated for the rest of the meeting and then left early saying she was late for something else.

    To be fair, he is frustrating. He’s very nice but he gets almost obsessive about small details, at the expense of much more important issues, and will frequently derail a conversation. It is impossible to get through a meeting agenda with him in any kind of reasonable time, partially because few people will challenge him, even when what he’s saying is highly irrelevant or even irrational. He once insisted we could accommodate 150+ people in a space that would clearly only hold about 40 (we had to get facilities to confirm via fire code that this would not be allowed before he would concede).

    Anyway, we can’t do anything about the grand-boss, so we all just deal with it and internalize our thoughts (or sometimes talk to each other afterwards, just to confirm that we’re not the ones being irrational). I get that my boss works much more closely with him and so it’s probably harder for her to keep her feelings from showing, but her reactions make it much more uncomfortable for the rest of us. Is there anything that can be done?

    1. valentine*

      Someone sits down with him and says, “It’s taking us x extra minutes to get through a single agenda item and we regularly don’t get to y of them. Can we agree that I/we will say, ‘Let’s move on’ or ‘Back to…’ when this happens?” But if he wants to waste time and you’re happy to have him waste it, you’re living your future right now. You could also sit your boss down and say this about him. She’s the one not leading by example and not advocating for you, so, if you can speak to him directly, that’s the way to go. She’s doing what she wants to be doing. There’s a chance hearing from you will spur her to act, but possibly not, in which case you’ll know you’re stuck. but you still won’t know whether her boss is willing to change.

  90. wingmaster*

    The Blind Move

    Has anyone ever relocated to a different place (another State for US people) you’ve never visited? I know it’s highly encouraged that you visit the place prior.

    So, I sort of just dove in and applied to a few openings that are out of state, and now I have a phone interview Monday! I’ve never visited the location, but I do have family who live there. I’m still young, not married, no kids, etc., so it makes it a bit easier for me.

    I’d love to hear your experiences if you’ve ever did the blind move.

    1. Rainy days*

      Not me, but a friend–

      She moved to a state she’d never been to for a guy she met on a dating site. He got her a job working for his mom. They broke up a few weeks later. Things became weird at work and she had to quit. No boyfriend, no job. I thought she’d come running home. The next few years were rough, but she kept going, searching for the right field and the right person to settle down with.

      Fast forward 10 years. She stayed in the city, got a MA, entered a new field, met a new and way better guy, got married, ran for statewide elected office, and won. Very happy ending.

    2. Pinky Pie*

      I did twice- and those were some of the best moves I ever made. I wish I could back there frequently. Twice I moved to areas I really hadn’t visited and one- well, it was Macon, GA. Enough said. I finished up my internship and left gladly. The other is the family relocation that hasn’t worked out.

      It’s a crap shoot and honestly satisfaction depends on your job, ability to make friends and the fit you have with the area you go to.

    3. Less Bread More Taxes*

      I moved to France to a city I’d never been to in February this year. It’s been an adventure. Obviously moving within the US is easier culturally. I’d suggest giving yourself a timeframe to adjust – say if you don’t absolutely love it within 6 months, thinking about making a career move again in a couple of years. If you absolutely hate it, make yourself stick it out for 6 months in case things change and then make a decision.

      1. wingmaster*

        Thanks for sharing your advice. The timeline is a helpful guide. I hope the move has been well for you!

    4. Not All*

      I’ve done it several times and will happily do it again.

      The biggest lesson for me is to REALLY check into cost of living. For example…Omaha vs Portland. Omaha is considered to have a fairly cheap cost of living because buying a house is pretty cheap compared to most cities of similar size. BUT everything else is much, much more expensive. Compared to Portland, homeowners insurance for the same dollar value home is more than triple, utilities double to triple, auto insurance 4 to 5 times as much, food about 50% more for the exact same items at the same store, etc. And don’t get me going on costs for any type of home improvement or contractor work! All in all, my fixed monthly expenses are actually quite a bit more in Omaha than Portland.

      1. wingmaster*

        Funny how you mentioned Portland. That is where the potential job will be at. I’m currently in Orange County. I am doing my research of COL now..

      2. Tina Belcher's Less Cool Sister*

        This is SUCH a good point! I actually moved from Portland to a rural town on the eat coast, and I assumed the COL would be like 40% less… In reality, the college town/very small city itself is just as expensive as big cities (in terms of housing, eating out, etc) and the low COL areas are incredibly rural farm areas where outsiders are not generally welcome.

    5. CRR*

      I wasn’t 100% blind because I had visited the city on vacation twice. But when I decided to move there, I hadn’t been there in a few years and didn’t know anything other than touristy stuff. It was difficult to meet new people at first, but I found groups with common interests and got pretty lucky that some early friends were connectors.

      The trickiest part was definitely finding housing. I didn’t know the neighborhoods. I didn’t know what rent costs should be like. I was lost. I fretted over it big time. I actually ended up finding an apartment on Craigslist and going a little overboard with the landlord on photos and details. But the place ended up being fine.

      If you do it, I would go into it knowing that a lot is going to be fluid.

    6. Elizabeth West*

      When I moved to Santa Cruz in the early 1990s, I’d already been there after the quake with Red Cross. Right now, I’m applying to places out of state–one city I’ve visited three times, and another I haven’t.

      So far no bites, but I have been asking people about the city I haven’t visited for feedback if they’ve ever lived in the area. I would recommend talking to your family members about what it has to offer–commuting, transport, things to do, etc. These will affect your quality of life there.

      1. wingmaster*

        Yes, I started talking to my relatives about it, and they encouraged me to apply. They’ve been helpful on giving me an idea of what their hometown is like.

    7. Tina Belcher's Less Cool Sister*

      I moved across the country to a brand-new city and state, after only ever visiting once for my interview (and was in the state for less than 24 hours). I moved for the job, not because I particularly wanted to live in that location.

      It ended up not working out and I moved back after a year; a lot of that was due to the job itself, but I did not love the location either (actually grew to hate it). In hindsight I should have known it wouldn’t be the right fit for me – everything I ended up hating was described in my online research, but I had rose colored glasses and thought it would be fine.

      I think blind moves can work out, but you have to be really honest with yourself about what you need and what you wouldn’t enjoy in a new environment and do as much research as you can. Good luck!

      1. wingmaster*

        Sorry to hear your job didn’t work out. What sites did you go on for your online research?

        1. Tina Belcher's Less Cool Sister*

          Anything I could get my hands on! Wikipedia, city-data, livability, local city/tourism websites, reddit… literally anything I could find. I was attending grad school at the time and one of my classmates grew up near where I was moving, so I picked her brain too.

          In my case I was moving from a relatively large west coast city to a tiny, rural college town on the east coast, so there wasn’t a lot of information online about life in the town beyond the campus (which should itself have been a red flag – there WAS no life beyond the campus). Some of the flags that I should have noticed were: lack of cultural activities (“Oh the campus has an art museum, it’ll be fine!”); the small population (“It’ll be a cozy small town!”); distance to a major airport (“Only three hours, no big deal!”); lack of any social support (“we’ll make friends!”); lack of employers for my now-husband (“I’m sure he’ll find something!”); and just generally poor culture fit (“There isn’t really much of a difference between East and West coast people!”).

          Having family who live there helps – can you arrange to visit them for a week to get a feel for the area? Try to distill what is most important to you in your environment and ask them specific questions about those topics, which will be more helpful to your decision than general questions about the area. If possible, focus on anyone who is close in age or just more similar to you and get their honest assessment of the good, bad, and ugly. Ask your parents if they know anything about the area (if your mom is anything like mine, she has an encyclopedic knowledge of the minor happenings in everyone elses’ life and will have an opinion on the matter).

          Don’t make my mistake – go in with your eyes wide open, and think really hard about what you can adjust to and what would make you unhappy. Good luck!

    8. The Man, Becky Lynch*

      Well I’ve moved twice to cities that weren’t completely blind, I was familiar in the terms I had driven through them or in the case of when I moved to Seattle, I came up to stay a weekend with a friend for a baseball game, etc. Nothing in depth or anything of that sort. I didn’t “scout” it out or anything of that sort.

      I moved because my partner was moving at the time and I was all “Me tooooooo.” and just started applying and found a random blind apartment complex that would accept the fact I was moving into town and would hold the stupid thing with a over-nighted check [some places do not allow that anymore I’ve learned].

      Honestly, I’m really easy going and could land just about anywhere. Especially if you are going to be somewhere with someone you know nearby, that makes it easier. I have family in the area and a couple friends as well.

      I was also poised to move to a completely new-to-me area years ago when I was supposed to transfer locations prior to us folding in the end. It was oddly not stressful. I have pioneer and traveler in my blood lines, so just sweep me away with the winds and where I land, I’ll find my way around.

      1. wingmaster*

        Thanks for sharing! I read many stories on how big of a change moving it is, but reading some of your responses here on AMM shows me that some people are just naturally far more adaptable.

    9. ThatGirl*

      I moved to a suburb of Chicago I’d only driven through once. My then-boyfriend lived in a different suburb, I got the interview while I was visiting him and drove through town on my way there, went back to Kentucky where I was living at the time and moved about two months later. It worked out pretty well; that was 14 years ago, I liked the town I lived in (and I still like Chicagoland and still live in the area – closer to the city now) and I’ve been married to the guy for nearly 12 years. :)

    10. Fed*

      I’ve done this multiple times (5 so far! was military, now Federal Government). I have liked or loved every place I’ve lived. The biggest thing is your attitude. I have known people to be miserable in the most desirable places. There’s a great book ( “This is Where You Belong: Finding Home Wherever You Are” by Melody Warnick) that’s great for suggesting ways to get involved and invested in your new location.

    11. Transplant*

      I moved to Alaska three years ago, never having been here and knowing pretty much no one expect the partner I was moving with. I have no regrets, but I did a lot of research beforehand. I knew it had the things that were musts for me (outdoor recreation, not too tiny, some arts and culture). I got lucky to find a good immediately after we moved up, but that can be challenging in a smaller community.

      My recommendations: 1) do lots and lots of research. Know what you’re getting yourself into, in terms of climate, access to your hobbies, and especially cost and ease of living. I knew it would be more expensive, but I didn’t realize that I’d substantially reduce my access to fresh, affordable and healthy foods when I moved. I’ve adjusted, but I probably annoyed the hell out of my coworkers by complaining about how crappy the produce was for the first year.

      If you do get an interview, make sure to demonstrate that you’ve thought a lot about why this community will be a good fit for you. No one wants to hire someone who quits and moves six months later because they hate it, but it can be fun to have a coworker who is new to your town and wants to learn about all the wonderful things to do and see. I think it brings some exciting energy.

      If you do move, be as open as you possibly can to new experiences. You never know when an invite to an event will turn into an opportunity to meet a new friend, or when you’ll be try a new hobby that becomes a favorite. Avoid complaining about the things that are different and enjoy the opportunity to explore somewhere brand new!

      Good luck!

      1. Federal Middle Manager*

        “If you do get an interview, make sure to demonstrate that you’ve thought a lot about why this community will be a good fit for you.”

        As someone who has interviewed a lot of out-of-town folks, this is really important.

      2. wingmaster*

        Thanks so much for your detailed advice. Those are all important factors to research about.

    12. Federal Middle Manager*

      I went to law school in a city/state I’d never visited. I showed up with two suitcases a week before classes started. For me it wasn’t a big deal because I knew the school would provide structure and socializing opportunities.

      I’d be much more hesitant with a work move. I’d ask a lot of questions about work culture, how people socialize, etc. If you are in a job where people keep their heads down and don’t do much together outside of work, it can be really tough to make friends as an adult in a new place. However, if you have any hobbies that would give you an automatic network (like roller derby, etc.) a blind move could be quick and fun!

  91. Some Sort of Management Consultant*

    Thank G-d for the open thread!
    I’m drowning!

    How do I manage a bunch of different workstreams and tasks without any slipping through the cracks?
    TL:DR: My client uses one task manager, I use one, my work don’t allow add-ins, integrations or extensions in outlook or browser. I can’t keep track of everything. I need one master list and can’t figure out how to do get one.

    —-
    In the past year my responsibilities at work have grown leaving me with several parallel workstreams with little overlap and a huge increase in both the amount of emails I receive and the complexity of those emails.

    I have ADD, diagnosed two years ago and meds have been an enormous help. I got by before with pomodoros, a bullet journal and Todoist. Location-based reminders are a lifesaver!
    But now I’m feeling overwhelmed and have even missed some important things because I don’t have a complete overview any more.

    – I’ve tried to use the Outlook flag function but adding one more tool? You can guess how well that’s worked.
    – my current client uses ClickUp and I love all their features.
    – My company does not allow any add-ins to outlook or browsers.
    – if I don’t see something on a list, I forget about it
    – I have a mix of urgent actions, things that take one hour a week for 5 weeks, big things not due for 3 months…

    Basically, I need something that allows me aggregate flagged emails/Outlook tasks, ClickUp, doesn’t require installing add-ins, syncs to both work PC and my apple stuff and has location based reminders I’ve played around with different integrations on Zapier and in Microsoft flow, but that just adds to the complexity and our IT department is not keen on it.

    The best idea I have right now is to just grind my teeth and forward every Outlook flag and task to either ClickUp or Todoist. ClickUp has a bunch of features I love, but no location based reminders and moving everything to Todoist just for those seems silly. Or just keep one master list in my bullet journal or planner, but that doesn’t allow me to move stuff around and reschedule.

    How can I simplify this? Is the best way just to hunker down and accept the inconvenience?

    1. Some Sort of Management Consultant*

      This week I missed a really important email that came last week and needed immediate attention, and had forgot to tell 5 people they should attend an important meeting. it’s giving my brain squirrels a field day.

      I’ve asked my project manager to sit down with me next week and go through my entire to -do list, but my question now has more to do with the process – how do I handle all of these different things?

    2. A Simple Narwhal*

      Could you try OneNote? My team uses it for just about everything, and it has a lot of options for organization. Outlook has a function/integration where you can just click a button in outlook and it automatically sends the email and its contents to a section in one note. I’m fairly certain this is a standard integration so you wouldn’t need to download anything and it works on both macs and pcs, and since you can link it to your outlook account, it syncs between all versions of your OneNote, whether you’re using the desktop or online version, on your tablet or your pc or your mac.

      I used to use Trello all the time, but I ended up giving it up once I got organized in OneNote. There’s a Microsoft version of Trello too called Planner, and since Outlook and OneNote are microsoft products too, they can probably integrate with it as well.

      1. Some Sort of Management Consultant*

        I have OneNote and I use it for notes.
        But (as far as I know?) there are no “real” task manager functions like deadlines and reminders? I would just have to make lists manually? Or have I have missed something?

        1. Some Sort of Management Consultant*

          Ooh, it can set outlook tasks.
          Huh! How have I missed that?

          1. A Simple Narwhal*

            Ha yup! And it may not have the immediate out-of-the-box organization functions that other tools operate, but there are lots of things you can do with it.

            For example, I have a section dedicated solely to task tracking. Each day gets its own page, and on each page I have different sections for things I’m working on currently, things I’m waiting on someone else for, and upcoming things that I need to keep in mind but am not taking immediate action on. Once a task is complete I cross it out (slash-through font). I duplicate the page each morning, update the date, delete the crossed out items, and boom, now I’m tracking my work for the day. The pages can get subpaged by month, and then I collapse the days under each month once the month ends to make things look neater.

            Bigger projects get their own notebooks, which allows me to break things down into separate sections, and then into separate pages within each section if they require that level of granularity. You can attach notifications and emails to everything. I tend to keep an email section too that I just drop relevant emails into, but then grab the link to that particular email so I can write something like “The singing tomatoes need a new dance number, reference: Grandboss’s request [link to email in the email section]”. This is also a good way of tracking your accomplishments for the year “March 12, received accolades for my tomato choreography, [link to related email].

            Hope that helps! This just how I use OneNote, I think there are a lot of resources online for other ways to take advantage of its functionality.

            1. Some Sort of Management Consultant*

              Thank you so much for this!
              I have separate notebooks already, but I wasn’t aware of all the task related features.
              Having one tasktracking pages sounds like a good idea.
              I like the email links idea too!

              I’m gonna go play around in it a bit!

            1. Some Sort of Management consultant*

              This is why I love this site!
              I was feeling so overwhelmed a few hours ago but now it actually seems like I can sort it out!

    3. twig*

      I will be following this!

      As a fellow late-in-life diagnosed ADHD’er, I have these problems.
      (and thank you! this served as a reminder to take my mid-day meds)

    4. Lilysparrow*

      I’m glad OneNote looks like a good option. I hope it works out!

      As a fellow ADHDer with a few more years since dx, I just want to warn you about the temptation of chasing unicorns. We are prone to magical thinking, and spending way too much time searching for the perfect system or tech that is going to handle all the complexity and make things work for us. This chase can wind up making things worse, because it takes up a lot of bandwidth from processing the actual work tasks.

      IME, every system or tool has a life cycle where it works great for a while, then things start slipping, then we get overwhelmed. That’s because it’s not the tool that helped in the first place – it was the *interest* in using the tool that keeps us attentive and on-track. My interest cycle is about three months. Yours may be longer or shorter.

      In the long-term, I get the most sustainable help from low-tech systems that create triggers for the desired behavior. For example, I keep one notebook but multiple calendars. I have a paper notebook where I write everything I need to know or do on an ongoing basis. I have one paper calendar that I use as a daily to do list, time tracker, and long-range planner, and I use Google Calendar to set events, reminders and alarms.

      I have to manually go through them every day and do an overview once a week in order to update and “sync” everything. This is why it works. It isn’t automatic, so it requires me to do the behavior.

      If it were automatic, I would forget about it, and that’s when things start falling through the cracks.

    5. Policy wonk*

      I second the comments about the on-line tools available. But I also keep an old fashioned hard copy to-do list of all the things that absolutely must be done today. Checking it periodically helps keep me on track, as it is sometimes easy to lose focus on the big picture when dealing with a specific task on line.

  92. Work from home newbie*

    Hi all,

    I’m newer to the workforce and wanted to get some opinions on what productively working from home looks like. How do you structure your days? Do you work for a couple hours and then clock out and go to appointments or do other things, and then finish work at night? Do you get dressed and work in an “office-like” environment, or do you put the TV on or have a beer and relax while you work? In that vein–is it okay to have a drink or a smoke while you work from home? How do you measure your success or productivity if you aren’t necessarily needing to meet certain deadlines, teleconference, or take calls? I ask because I think my ideas of working from home are too stodgy and staid–my one coworker will often take half days or leave hours early from work, go out with friends and/or have a couple of drinks, and then make up 3 hours working, but much more casually than I expect. I don’t want to sit over here and metaphorically clutch my pearls if this is actually totally normal behavior! Could others who work from home give me some perspective?

    1. revueller*

      My dad worked from home for two years for one of his jobs. He had a room to himself and we were not to disturb him while he was in his office. He only came out for lunch or when he was done for the day. He seemed to do well on a structured schedule. He wore casual clothes for the most part except when he had meetings (since those were largely video conferences).

      My partner worked from home several days a week for his past job. Since we’re in a one-bedroom apartment, he didn’t have a room himself, but he also isn’t as easily distracted. He worked much more flexibly from what I remember, but he also had enforced structure because his jobs required regular communication and meetings with higher-ups.

      I “worked from home” after I was laid off and started job-searching. I usually began my mornings in a cafe until my laptop ran low on battery and then used my train ride home as an enforced break. I worked until I felt I had done enough for a given day. I measured that work with spreadsheets and to-do lists. I didn’t have to be in contact with anyone except if I was expecting a phone interview or a recruiter to reach out so I had more flexibility. However, I need a work headspace to do work, so I enforced an artificial schedule and wore semi-nice to help me stay in that headspace.

      I mention all of these because it really depends on how you work and what your work requires. Working from home means so many different things and will have different constraints depending on your job. Try new things out within those constraints and see what works. It doesn’t matter what you do so long as your employer is happy with your performance.

    2. CRR*

      When I first worked from home, I at least changed out of my pajamas to start the work day. Now I don’t do that. But I’m still pretty connected through the day. Yes, every now and then I will schedule an appointment during the day and check out for an hour. But I’m mostly engaged from 8 until 5. Some of my coworkers are like yours and they push the limits. I think too much of that takes advantage of the perk and I know some people who’ve had the privilege revoked due to it.

      The one thing that really helped me is having a dedicated workspace at home. Get to your workspace. Stay in it when you’re working. If you get a drink or a snack or want to watch Days of Our Lives, get out of the workspace to do that.

    3. Damn it, Hardison!*

      For me it was a trial and error. The musts for me – I have to get up close to my regular wake up time and take a shower. If I don’t, I’m inevitably less productive, or at the very least I feel that way. I have no problem throwing in a few loads of laundry during the day, or running out to the dry cleaners at 10am if my schedule allows it. My personal rule is I can’t be aware for more than an hour total. I generally work more hours from home because I don’t have the 2 hour round trip commute to the office, so I feel like it all evens out in the end. I have been known to have the TV when I’m doing tasks which don’t require 100% of my attention. I have some very routine activities that have to be done but are are super basic and boring, so I save those for the days I work from home. The expectation where I work is that you are reasonably available during working hours, beyond that no one seems to ask questions.

    4. Close Bracket*

      > In that vein–is it okay to have a drink or a smoke while you work from home?

      Oh hell yes. Mid afternoon cocktails are one of the best perks of working from home, second only to working in your underpants.

      (I have a feeling I’m going to get a lot of disagreement with this)

      1. AvonLady Barksdale*

        Not from me. I am about to start working from home again full time and I guarantee there will be times that I will pour myself a nice little tipple at about 5pm even though I work until 5:30 or 6, especially if I need just that leeeeetle extra push to finish up a report.

        I used to work at a place where we would occasionally finish our day at a nearby bottle shop. Just helped to wrap things up.

        1. Close Bracket*

          I admire your restraint. I guess I didn’t work-from-home so much as freelance-from-home, and I was not above pouring a nice little tipple mid-afternoon as I cracked open a document to edit. :)

    5. Overeducated*

      I think some of this really depends on your workplace and its policies. Mine has pretty clear guidelines for telework, and one of them is that telework is meant to be for the same hours as your regular hours in the office. If you’re not available for a few hours in the afternoon, you need to take leave or get your supervisor’s permission to vary your work hours (I’ve had a supervisor strict enough to say “ok which specific hours will you be on duty?”). If you’re in a place where office workers have flex schedules, I’d assume you could be more flexible about telework as well. And you measure success or productivity the same way you’d measure it in the office, by whatever metrics you use to track your work; if it’s just by time in your chair, you’re probably not being as effective in setting goals and measuring progress as you could be.

      Personally I would not drink even one beer on the clock, but that’s partially because of where I work, if I were elsewhere I might look at it differently. I do telework in my pajamas quite frequently, though….

      1. Windchime*

        This is how my workplace is. My team is all allowed one wfh day per week, and we all pretty much stick to normal working hours, within reason. I am sure that my boss would allow a “split shift” for special reasons but for a normal wfh day, we are expected to be available and online at least through the core office hours.

        I’ve worked at other places where people interpreted “work from home” to mean “take a day off while occasionally checking email”. That wouldn’t fly in my office.

        1. Clisby*

          This is going to vary a lot by company. I worked full-time from home for years, and had a good bit of flexibility. Even when I worked on-site, we had flex time – I could start work anywhere between 7 a.m. and 9 a.m., take anywhere from a half-hour to an hour and a half lunch, and leave as early as 3:30 (if I started at 7 and took a half-hour lunch.)

          From home, I worked the core hours of 9-3 and flexed the rest; but since I also was on call every night (including weekends) I never got any pushback if I needed to run an errand or go to a dr’s appointment in the 9-3 period – I just put it on my Outlook calendar. I also didn’t hesitate to do a load of laundry here and there, or get dinner started – if the company urgently needed me, all they had to do was pick up the phone and call. I didn’t work in pajamas but I did work in jeans, T-shirt, flip-flops (no videoconferences at this job.)

          Getting started in the morning wasn’t a problem because I took our kids to school, so I didn’t have the option to sleep in. I was usually up and working by 6 a.m., kid-wrangling from 7-8, working (with the occasional break) from 8-2:30, kid-wrangling from 2:30-3+, and then finishing up whatever needed to be done. I was always reachable by cellphone in case of emergency, which rarely happened during the day.

          1. Clisby*

            I should have said – I was a computer programmer. I almost never dealt with anyone external to the company, and essentially the work just had to get done. The core hours were mainly to ensure that there was a block of time when you could reasonably expect to be able to contact co-workers you needed to collaborate with.

    6. Whyyy*

      I might be late to reply, but my dad worked from home for nearly my whole life and I’ve seen him go through a few different methods.

      The method that I think worked best for him was to have all of his “interpersonal” stuff scheduled for the morning, like conference calls, individual calls, anything that would require him to IM his coworkers. He took an extended break in the afternoon/evening, because the main reason he worked from home was to be able to spend time with his kids and could be at home when we got back from school through dinnertime. And then later in the evening/after we were asleep (back when our bedtime was 8) he would go back to his office and answer emails, prepare meeting notes, write reports, or other tasks that didn’t involve his coworkers. Sometimes he would watch TV or have a glass of wine at that point, and he was usually in pajamas :). I think this system worked best for multiple people on his team and especially because he had kids in school.

      I’ve also seen him do what others have said where he shuts himself in his office for the normal workday timeframe and then is available for the evening. But I think his mental health was better using the schedule I described above. I’ll also add that I have friends that work from home who are younger/childfree but who have a partner with a work-from-office job, and they do the same thing because then they’re free in the evenings to spend time with their partner. So really it just depends on what works best for you and your wellbeing, along with what works best for your company.

      Whatever you do, just be sure to have a way to keep “work mode” and “off-work mode” separate in some way, because it will help you with your mental work-life balance. Working from home doesn’t mean you need to be “on” for longer than anyone else.

    7. MeepMeep*

      I work from home part time and I’m really rigid about it. I block out the time I am “at work”, go into my office, and work the entire time. My kid goes to daycare for that time. I have a home office and do all my work there.

      When I had my own business, I was more flexible about it, but found that it was worse. When I was flexible about when and where I was working, I got less done, and it meant that work pretty much took over my whole day. I was never “not at work”. This way, I’m at work 12-4, and then I am done and I leave work “at work”, as it were.

    8. fhqwhgads*

      So all of this:
      How do you structure your days? Do you work for a couple hours and then clock out and go to appointments or do other things, and then finish work at night? Do you get dressed and work in an “office-like” environment, or do you put the TV on or have a beer and relax while you work? In that vein–is it okay to have a drink or a smoke while you work from home? How do you measure your success or productivity if you aren’t necessarily needing to meet certain deadlines, teleconference, or take calls?
      And whether that’s acceptable or not is going to be highly dependent on your employer. What you’re describing isn’t just about working from home. It’s also about having a flex-schedule. For many employers WFH is exactly the same as working from the office, so if you’d be allowed to come and go from the office, it’s also fine to do when you’re working at home. Others, if you have core hours, you’re expected to be working core hours. It doesn’t matter where your desk is. I can tell you with my company, it’s the latter. We do not, per se, “structure our days”. I know other firms that have flex schedules for everyone. It really depends on the office. If you’re going into interviews for remote jobs, or jobs that have a WFH component, and want to know what that looks like for that company, you’ve got to ask. Going in assuming there is one norm will get you nowhere. It’s totally variable by company. There may be some more consistent patterns in certain industries, but there isn’t one answer here.

  93. Let's Bagel*

    Anyone ever move their family for a job that didn’t work out?

    Curious how people move/uproot their entire families for a job…what if it doesn’t work out? I am currently job searching and was contacted earlier in the week by a recruiter with an interesting opportunity, but one I admit I would not have sought out myself. Who knows if it will progress to an interview stage, and if it does I’m sure that will give me the opportunity to try to assess whether or not I think the job would be a fit, if I would like it, etc. But of course we all know that even if you do all your homework and look for all the red flags, no one has a crystal ball and you just never know. If I were to be offered and accept this job, my family and I (spouse and two young children) would need to move about an hour away, to a different part of the state. Nothing crazy or drastic, but still upending our entire lives. My husband’s career would also shift–right now he is primarily in the office in a managerial role, and he would elect to drop down to a full time remote non-managerial role (something he’s been considering for some time anyway but has been reluctant to pull the trigger on for a few reasons).

    I realize I am 100 steps ahead of myself, but these things are all critically important to consider, IMO. It feels like an enormous burden to carry to say we are going to put our home on the market, have my husband change roles at his job and switch to full time remote work, move an hour away and thus change our children’s schools (they are extremely young but it’s still a change to their routine) and all of this just because of…me? What if I don’t like the job? What if they don’t like me? What if 3 months in I’m like, yeah, this is not for me? Then what? Feels like a huge amount of pressure.

    Of course the upside is that there’s a huge potential this could work out beautifully. Without boring you all with the details, there’s a lot of appeal to my husband and I about the move, about his career switch, about mine, etc. Things that *could* work out well. But how does one ever know? What do you do if it doesn’t work out? Has this ever happened to anyone?

    1. Psyche*

      One way you could handle this would be for you to rent a room temporarily while settling into the job and have your family follow slightly later. My dad took a job a few states away and my mom was a teacher and didn’t want to move until the school year was done (both so that she would stay employed for that year and because she didn’t want us to switch schools mid-year). It also gave him time to look at houses and her time to pack everything up. If something had gone horribly wrong, he could have simply come home and we would have unpacked.

      1. Psyche*

        And actually, for an hour away you could even decide to deal with a terrible commute for a month to get comfortable with the job and then move.

        1. CatMintCat*

          Yes, this. I did a 90 minute commute for several years. I hated it, and it sucked big time, but it can be done. For only an hour, I wouldn’t even think about moving.

    2. Overeducated*

      It is a huge deal! I’ve done this – moved 400 miles with my family for a job – that I only wound up in for 1.5 years. Sometimes it’s worth the risk, but moves are tough so with every one we have to think about “could this be the last? will this set us up where we want to be?”

      One factor that I’ve taken into account is whether there would be other options if the job didn’t work out – so not a small town or place with only one employer in your field. But another thing dual career couples often have to consider to make things work is a long commute. At various points I’ve commuted 1.5 hours by car and my husband unfortunately does this regularly now (but I also am used to being not rich in a big metro area, so an hour long public transit commute is my normal). If the new job is actually an hour away from where you are now, and the hour move is not just partway, you could consider starting the job and seeing how it goes before deciding whether to move your family. That is a short enough distance that it doesn’t have to be all or nothing.

    3. JustaTech*

      This happened to my family when I was a kid. In the middle of high school (but mostly not during the school year) we moved several states away for my dad to have a new job at a bigger, up-and-coming company. So it was new schools for my brother and I (good for him, because he’d had a terrible time at his previous school), new house and a new job for my mom as well.

      It was mostly fine for about a year and half (my mom got a job she really liked, school worked out for us kids) though the hours my dad’s job expected were insane. Then it all went poof in the dot com.

      So we stayed where we were and eventually my dad got a new job and I went to college and it was just, life? Maybe if everything had exploded after we’d only been there a few months it would have been different, but we’d already bought a house and paid two school tuition, so moving back would have been more disruptive.

      If you’re really concerned, maybe try to make sure that there are other jobs in your industry in that area in case it doesn’t work out so you don’t have to move again.

      1. Chocolate Teapot*

        I have met several people who live and work here Monday-Thursday, then commute to their home country for the weekend. (This is in Europe, but I suppose you could apply the same between different American states).

        In some cases it was for getting established before the rest of the family relocated, but other times it appeared that the rest of family did not want to move, or could not.

        1. Overeducated*

          I know people who do this (mainly in academia), but I’d hesitate to do it for a distance of an hour…while neither living away from your family most of the week nor commuting an hour is anyone’s ideal, the people I know who live separately most of the week are a lot more unhappy with their situation than the commuters.

    4. Let's Bagel*

      Thanks very much for the feedback, guys. For those who suggested I try the job out and just suck it up regarding the commute for awhile in the beginning–I’d love to do this, and I actually don’t really care about the commute. The issue is logistics surrounding childcare, and that makes this not really possible. Currently I’m the one getting the kids from daycare before they close, and doing this commute, I’d never make it. With my husband’s hours he can’t do pickup. For the same reason it’s also not really feasible to move out there on my own for an extended period of time in the beginning (and essentially leave my husband with all the childcare duties plus his own job to deal with). Ugh, kids! They make everything more difficult.

      Thanks for the suggestions about checking out other employment options in the area first as well–I will definitely do that!

      1. Hi there*

        If your husband switches his work, couldn’t he do the daycare pickup? It sounds like you both are ready for a change. No matter how this position works out it might be a good time for him to adjust his work situation, and then you can see how it feels for your family, if you want to pursue other opportunities, etc.

  94. LunaLovegood*

    My husband told me yesterday that a face I make when I’m thinking looks like a glare. It’s always felt like a subtle “thinking” face to me, but I just did it in the mirror, and it *does* look like a glare!

    I started a new job a few months ago, and I know I’ve made that face in meetings. I’m a pretty friendly and positive person otherwise, but I’m on the quiet side, which could be interpreted as hostile or arrogant. Obviously I’m going to stop making this face immediately, and I’ll go out of my way to be extra-friendly at work. But is there a way to bring this up with my new coworkers that wouldn’t be weird? I don’t want them to think that I hate them or their ideas.

    1. Less Bread More Taxes*

      I… wouldn’t change anything if I were you. As long as you’re not thinking *at someone*, don’t worry about it! Maybe when you’re thinking about something you could simply say “Hmm let me think that over” so they know you’re not angry. Or even “That’s a great idea, let me mull this over.” You have enough going on at work without adding the worry of thinking about how you look constantly.

      1. valentine*

        Just quietly make the change. If they say something, you can breezily explain.

    2. Dusty Bunny*

      I have a deep-in-thought face that looks like I might be plotting a murder; possibly the murder of whoever is sitting at the table with me. (Possibly the murder of the person who persists in pointing out the face!)

      After getting, “Are you all right?” or “Oh no! What happened?” from a long list of friends and coworkers, I tend to let people know it’s just my deep-in-thought face, and if there ever is a problem, I promise to use my words.

    3. LunaLovegood*

      Thank you both for weighing in!

      @Less Bread More Taxes I think I may have made this face *at* people who were talking, especially when I haven’t understood where they were going with a comment or I wasn’t sure I agreed. If I do catch myself doing it again, I’ll try to say something like you suggested.

      @Dusty Bunny I’m glad it’s not just me! If there’s a time during one of these meetings when the moment feels right, I’ll try to slip in something about my deep-in-thought face.

    4. The Man, Becky Lynch*

      It’s honestly not a bad or weird thing to bring up to your coworkers like you did here! Just say “My husband interestingly told me my thinking face looks like angry-face! Does it look like a glare to you? I sure hope not, I just wanted to mention it in case there were any wrong impressions floating around.”

      I have RBF and I talk about it randomly just to remind people “I am not mad, this is just my faaaaaaaace.”

  95. Eleanor Shellstrop*

    Does anyone have experience with letting their current manager know they are job searching and asking them to be a reference? I’m starting to apply for other jobs, and realizing that my current boss would be by faaaar the best reference for me out of all my recent positions. It’s normal for people in my role to only stay for one or two years, and I’ve done about a year and a half, so I don’t think it would be unexpected if I said I was thinking of moving on, but I’m not sure how to go about this the right way, or if I should do it at all. What if I don’t land another job, and I’m stuck here for a while, with people knowing that I have one foot mentally out the door?

    2. irene adler*

      And what if manager gets tired of waiting for you to leave, decides to hasten the process so she can bring in your replacement and shows you the door-before you have something lined up?

      Be very careful about letting your manager know you are job searching. Do you have any first-hand history of what manager does (if anything) when they learn a report is job hunting?

      1. Eleanor Shellstrop*

        Yeah, this is my worry. My instinct is to say that my manager wouldn’t do this, because I know him as a very kind, supportive person who’s been excellent to work for, but I guess who can say, right?

        I don’t have any first-hand experience with what he’d do in this situation, other staff members who have left have seemed to give normal notice periods and worked those without being pushed out earlier, but that’s after they already have another job offer in hand.

        1. irene adler*

          Manager may be pushed by Grand Boss(es) to let you go should things go on too long.

          Maybe if you strike up a conversation about employee development, with the goal of finding out if manager (or company) has plans to invest in you – employee development stuff-you can get some sort of indication of his willingness to serve as a reference. Maybe get him talking about what future he sees for you-at current company. Ask about next steps in your career development and all that. Some managers might be tempted to talk in terms of offering to be a reference for you- should you ever feel the need to move on to other things.

    3. merp*

      So I took a bit of a risk because I trusted my supervisor to be reasonable, and she was great, actually – but that is a risk based on all the stories here. One thing that might have helped is that I framed it as having found one or two positions that I felt like I had to try for, that I didn’t necessarily plan on leaving but was thinking of these apps are more exploratory. My situation was probably also helped by the fact that I have a degree not required for my current position, and these ‘exploratory’ apps would, so she probably saw through me or at least thought it was reasonable.

    4. Middle School Teacher*

      I did it, because I asked if I could list him as a reference. I said straight up that I knew I was a long shot and it’s not like I was itching to leave, but I wanted to be honest with him. We’ve been friends for more than 10 years so he got it.

    5. nym2*

      I’ve done it, although maybe in a slightly different position than you. I work for a mid-size organization with a lot of internal movement, and I had been in the same job for about six years. Because of how common internal movement is, we have an organizational culture that generally supports people transferring and bosses don’t usually get shirty about it.

      So back to the story. There was no opportunity to be promoted within my immediate departmental structure, and I’d been talking with my team lead for a couple of years about ways to build my professional skill set in the absence of promotional opportunities. As a part of those discussions about professional development we’d also talked about my desire to explore other areas of the organization on temporary assignments, and she knew I was applying for internal transfers too. When I got an interview with a different part of the organization I brought it up at our next 1-1 meeting and talked about the opportunity, what I liked about it, and what the timeline would be for interviews etc, and asked if she would be a reference. I ultimately got the job, and I know she gave me a good reference.

      I think what I’m saying here is twofold: a) transparency is good if you have the kind of culture that will support it, and b) because I’d been having regular, ongoing conversations with my boss about my long-term plans, there was no big “conversation” – just “I wanted to let you know that I’ve been asked to interview for X position in the next couple of weeks, and if it goes well, they’ll be looking to contact references – would you be one ?”

  96. Anon for This*

    I am an executive assistant to a VP who heads up a good-sized department. I also support some Executive and Sr Directors. One of the managers, Jim, who reports to one of my sr directors (yes, we are very middle management heavy) hired one of last year’s interns, Fergus, and assigned him to sit next to me.

    This is Fergus’s first real job and he has ten million questions, every single day. He’s driving me insane with all of them. These are not inappropriate questions, but I don’t have time to answer them all. He should be going to his assigned buddy, but I don’t know who that is. Honestly, I’m not sure Jim ever assigned him one, since Jim’s not a great people manager. Fergus is the most junior person on this floor and the rest of his team is on another floor. So he asks me, because I’m convenient. And it’s my job to answer the occasional employee question.

    There are so many layers between me and Fergus, I’m honestly not sure how to handle it. I know Jim won’t handle it well, regardless of who brings it to his attention. I don’t want Fergus to get in trouble – he honestly doesn’t know any better. I do have the authority to move him elsewhere, but then he would disrupt his new neighbors…

    This is all compounded by my ongoing health issues, which require meds that make me short-tempered, plus we are moving into my VP’s busy season and I don’t have time for anyone else. We do have a new departmental assistant, but she is not not up to speed yet, so if I send him to her, she’ll have to ask me anyway.

    I’m not thinking clearly, please help me!

    1. Akcipitrokulo*

      If you are able to move him elsewhere – are you able to move him next to his team?

    2. pharmacat*

      Can you discuss a process change with Fergus? He has a right to have questions, but that does not give him the right to disrupt your workflow with frequent interruptions.

      Ask him to save up his questions, or email them. Then you will answer them 1x a day, in one session.
      Make sure he is taking notes. Even if you have to watch him do it.
      Ask him to think through an entire project, and anticipate potential issues. Then discuss at one time, rather than approaching you as he encounters each obstacle.
      Training him cant be a priority over, or at the expense your primary job function.

      1. A Bag of Jedi Mind Tricks*

        THI!! (what Pharmacat said) and also, find out who his buddy is. If he was never assigned one, find out how to get him one.

    3. Frosty*

      “These are not inappropriate questions, but I don’t have time to answer them all. He should be going to his assigned buddy, but I don’t know who that is.”

      Tell him this. It’s important that he learns this or he will annoy people in other jobs too.

  97. De Minimis*

    Ai-yi-yi. I’d thought things were pretty settled for me….I left crappy fed contractor job for a better position at a nonprofit, but now I’m getting possible interest for one of the federal jobs I applied to earlier this year. Pay would be about the same, but I could get back into the federal retirement system [have about 9 years currently] and would earn much more leave due to my prior federal service. Also might be able to get a good promotion after a year or two to be earning a really good salary.

    Not 100% sure my current job is right for me [how could I possibly know that after less than 2 months] but the possible Fed job would be a test for me due to my occasional social anxiety. I think that I could do it, but don’t know if I want to complicate things by starting the process [right now I have to take an online assessment, though that’s the only thing so far, they’d still have to decide if they wanted to interview me—but in the past when I’ve tried with the agency I’ve never failed to get an interview after taking their assessment.]

    Current job may have promotion potential in a few years depending on if my boss retires and if they’re interested in me [I’d say I have a reasonable chance.]

    I’m tempted to at least take the assessment, but I don’t know if I will accept the job if I did manage to get an offer [I’ve interviewed with this agency three times in the past and haven’t ever gotten an offer.]

    TL:DR Just switched jobs to something I think I’m relatively okay with, but now something’s happening with a previous application that would offer better benefits/retirement and possible salary increases, but not sure if the job would be right for me.

    1. Mockingjay*

      Go through the process and see if it is a good fit.

      Parts of every job can cause stress, regardless of industry or position. Quantifying it may help. In what situations would your social anxiety play? A big conference once or twice a year might be stressful, but you could cope. If the job involves running weekly team meetings, that might be uncomfortable. (these are just examples off the top of my head)

      Figure out the work situation that suits you, then in the interview, ask questions to see if the job matches.

      1. De Minimis*

        It’s an IRS agent position, so dealing with a lot of people, and also being trained on the job by another agent. It doesn’t involve individuals or businesses, though, it’s working with nonprofits and government organizations.

        I’m on the fence…I had a bad day at work today so as usual, my first instinct it to start looking for the nearest exit….

    2. A tester, not a developer*

      Taking the assessment isn’t an ironclad agreement that you’d go any further with the process. Go for it!

    3. Need a better name, CPA*

      Take the assessment, and see what happens from there.You can always say “No” later.
      Never borrow trouble; they give so much away for free.

      1. Can't Sit Still*

        Well, the kitten has RBF, so he just has to look at me just right. A permanently scowling kitty is hilarious, though, especially at the vet. The techs are always apologizing to him for being rude. I can’t wait until he’s full grown. He is going look quite imperious with that ruff and scowl. He would be at a definite disadvantage in the workaday world!

  99. Less Bread More Taxes*

    Any freelance data analysis people out there? I just graduated with a masters in data science in January and I’m a couple months into a PhD in computer science. Thing is, the pay for the PhD is lower than I expected (turns out the income is taxed at a higher rate than I realised) and also I’m worried that any skills I learned during my masters will become rusty. I already signed up to Upwork, but I haven’t reached out to anyone yet.

    I’d like to focus on simple stuff like writing scripts to automate processes and trend analysis (the stuff I’m most comfortable with).

    Does anyone else do this? How did you get established?

  100. Pinky Pie*

    So, I had an interview yesterday. I was looking because I wanted to stabilize my income instead of depending on being paid by the people I contract with when they feel like it and I wanted benefits. The job pays more than I make now but has a reputation for being stressful and grinding. (In fact, when I asked others who had left the job, their advice was Don’t do it.)

    After being asked multiple questions about when I broke rules, how I handle a stressful situation, how I live with the fact my actions affect other people’s lives, the hours being mentioned 3 times in a 30 minute interview, this job didn’t feel like the right match for me. Sadly, all my husband hears is 30% raise and we’d stop paying so much for insurance and doesn’t understand why I wouldn’t want the job.

    I’ll continue to look at different companies- I’m in no hurry now. I’m stuck in a situation that I have to be remote due to where we live until my husband decides to leave his company.

  101. Sad and angry*

    Those in the tax/acc field-

    I Moved teams. Went from tax accountant to managing bookkeeping Dept. A big jump in responsibilities pay and title. Shared my good news w someone. And they said I must have been so bad at tax that they dumped me to bookkeeping. I wasn’t bad at tax but I was fit to be a manager? And had bookkeeping experience? But a lot of ppl here really hate it? Is it really that bad?

    1. boredatwork*

      If you are happy and like the work, there is not “wrong” type of accounting.

    2. It's me*

      I think a lot of tax people see bookkeeping as “beneath them” so maybe that is why? If you enjoy the work and you are managing people, I don’t see this as a negative in your career path. In fact, it is great experience and trajectory, as most tax managers (in smaller firms at least) need to supervise and review the work of the bookkeeping staff.

      1. De Minimis*

        Yeah I started out as a tax accountant and ended up moving to a more general accountant position that involves a lot of bookkeeping/GL duties. It’s just a different field…honestly tax is so specialized that I don’t know that a lot of tax people really know the ins and outs of regular accounting unless they’ve been exposed to it elsewhere.

    3. merp*

      I know this doesn’t maybe help but anyone who would say that in response to someone sharing good news was being rude. Easier said than done but you’d probably be best served by putting it out of your mind, sharing the news with someone who will celebrate with you, and enjoying your new job!

      Sending good vibes from here!

    4. Piano Girl*

      My brother is a corporate controller for an oil and gas company with investments overseas. As an accountant, I cannot even imagine how complex his job is. He doesn’t do his own taxes – taxes are not his thing. On the other hand, the guy who does his taxes loves doing tax work. Some people like to be more on the tax side, some on the bookkeeping side, and some people love auditing. Don’t listen to your “friend”.

    5. Jane of all Trades*

      It’s not bad. Tax work is usually more complex and so tax people can look down on bookkeeping work. I think that’s a pretty stupid view to take. Seems like you are getting a promotion that you’re excited about – congratulations, and I hope you love it. If somebody has a weird take on that it’s probably a them problem.

  102. Anonymousse*

    The nonprofit I work at is imploding before my very eyes before our supposedly outgoing ED refuses to leave after having hired his successor for 1.5 year. Two other staff members are leaving this month due to being pushed out by toxic senior management and I’m leaving (voluntarily) soonish. As a result, work is extremely understaffed (as I write this, I am the only person present in a 10 person office). Upper management is going to reorg the organization and downsize a significant department (client services) to focus on another facet. How do I maintain my mental sanity while I work out the rest of my notice period?

    Tl:dr how to maintain sanity in a toxic waste dump of a workplace.

    1. Zephy*

      I read your tl;dr and my immediate response was “leave,” so it’s good that you’re already planning to do that.

      Your new mantra is “not my circus, not my monkeys.” Keep your head down and tie up all your loose ends, collect that last paycheck, move on to better things.

    2. Jaid*

      Get a mug that has the prescription for “Fukitol”? Play “Que Sera Sera” on repeat in your empty office? Or better yet, the video of that one dude stuck in an airport having an adventure while Celine Dion sings “All by Myself” in the background.

      Sanity is overrated, anyway.

  103. Yorick*

    Jane, who had my position before me, requested for a quote for some software. Once I started, I got calls asking for her from somebody wanting to give her a quote for the software. As far as I know, no one here has that software. Now, a woman keeps calling for Jane to sell her a renewal. It doesn’t matter that I say Jane doesn’t work here anymore and no one knows anything about this software. I’ve spoken to this same woman several times, old her we’re not interested in a renewal, and she notes my name every time. But then she calls back for Jane and we have the same conversation again.

    Why do these salespeople do this? At this point, even if I have a project someday that requires a software like that one, I’m going to go with a competitor.

      1. Auntie Social*

        “YOUR SOFTWARE lost a year’s worth of work. We are going to sue you. Who is your agent for service of process? And how do you spell YOUR name?”

    2. KR*

      Do you need to continue contact with this company or sales rep? If not try writing down their number and stick it beside your phone so you know not to pick it up, or put it on a “Do not answer” contact in your cell.

    3. Lilysparrow*

      Just stop having conversations with her. Block her number, or if you can’t do that, say, “I’ve told you before, Jane doesn’t work here anymore. Do not call me again.” Or just hang up.

  104. Hmm, whatcha say?*

    So I have decided to start looking for new jobs and leave my toxic job! Yay!!!!

    I’m wondering what to say to future interviewers about “Why are you leaving?” I don’t really have a pretty reason like “I’m looking for something more challenging” (because I’ve only been in this role for a year.) And I was thinking of saying, “Well, I’m looking for a more inclusive and collaborative work culture which is why I was so excited about your company” (it’s listed in their values.) Would that be sufficient?

    I can’t say “My workplace was toxic and employees are receiving threats of harm from other employees *jokingly and not jokingly* and people are leaving like the place is on fire but management has turned a blind eye and I have often had self harm thoughts pop up when I think about going to work the next day” even though that’s the truth.

    One day when I do find another job, or just quit, how in the world do I handle telling this to my boss? My boss is much kinder than the rest of management, but she also is super anxious about more people leaving. She believes that she is the floating island in the chaos and will protect and save all of us from what’s happening (which is nice I suppose) but also threatens to hurt herself if any of us leaves (jokingly, but it still hurts to hear.) She said she has survived this craziness for 15 years, she expects the team can do it too. “And I’m right here with you! We’re suffering together to get this job done, and this is for the greater good” (I work at a non-profit.)

    I’m afraid the day I tell her I’m quitting she will actually hurt herself or she will hurl something at me. Or ruin my reputation, which she has threatened before.

    Any tips for what in the world you say in both scenarios?

    1. Nicki Name*

      You could say, “I was very excited about CurrentJob at first, but it turns out I’m not a good fit for that workplace.” And then follow with your line about looking for a more inclusive and collaborative work culture.

      No ideas here about how to keep your boss from freaking out, sorry. :(

    3. WellRed*

      People who say they will “ruin your reputation” are full of hot air and usually come across as crazy if they try it, so please don’t give that another thought. If you are genuinely afraid of a physical reaction, can you have someone from HR or something there as well?

    4. Zephy*

      If your boss threatens to or actually does hurt herself in response to you giving notice, that will be 110% Not Your Fault, so let go of that worry now. You’re not her mom, it’s not your responsibility to keep her from hurting herself. She’s a grown-ass woman and the choices she makes for how to behave are hers and hers alone.

      As for what to tell future interviewers, focus on what the prospective company does well. Point to specific events/campaigns/activities the company has been involved with – “I saw your Pointy Hats For All campaign during last year’s Homes 4 Gnomes event, and I’d love to do more of that kind of advocacy.” You don’t really have a way to know how inclusive and collaborative your prospective coworkers will be before you’re in the job, but you do have access to press releases and websites with information about what the company actually does.

    5. Federal Middle Manager*

      As to telling your boss, if you are genuinely concerned she will have an unprofessional reaction, I’d recommend either letting her know in writing (e-mail) or having a witness present when you tell her (someone from HR or even another manager).

      Threatening self-harm is abusive and emotional blackmail. Do not fall for it. Do not engage. Do not mention anything related to other people leaving, how the department will be affected, etc. Keep it strictly business and strictly about you. (“Tina, I need to let you know I’ve accepted another position and X will be my last day. I’ve appreciated all the opportunities I’ve received here. When would be a good time to discuss wrapping up my projects and planning for the transition.”)

    6. Lilysparrow*

      I’m having trouble with the idea that the person you describe as kind and nice is also someone you fear will throw something at you and has threatened to ruin your reputation.

      Please don’t give a second thought to such a person’s feelings about your quitting. Just take precautions to protect yourself, and get out.

      If you tell an interviewer, “the management team regularly threatens the staff, including throwing things at them,” any sane person will understand why you want to leave.

  105. nonprofits123*

    First comment but been following AAM for years.

    I’ve been working in development in nonprofits for about 4 years. I held a database/entry level fundraising position at a place for 2 years, but left after it became toxic (everyone else in my department had left in the prior 6 months and CEO wasn’t pleased with anyone).

    I moved to a new city after getting married at that time and quickly accepted a position with very similar responsibilities (but lower pay as the new city has a much lower cost of living). It’s a great organization and I love the work I’ve done the past 2 years. But I feel like I want more duties and should be paid more after my 4+ years of experience. I’ve already moved up in responsibilities once but this organization rarely has promotions and never does more than cost of living raises, even as we grow.

    I don’t have any role models in the industry and the position is such a mashup I’m not sure what I could even apply for elsewhere. Professional development is lacking for me as this place hasn’t valued it and only recently started offering some funds for one-off community training. Anyone have advice? I’m so early in my career I want to make sure I don’t stunt my growth and I’m not getting the necessary training to move up.

    1. Less Bread More Taxes*

      Branch out from nonprofits would be my advice. You want more money and more career support, and it doesn’t sound like you’re getting that where you are. If you really love nonprofits, there’s nothing wrong with moving to industry for a couple of years then going back. Big corporations have their problems too, but I’ve found that they do have some kind of career support in place – mentorship, regular professional events, etc – and the move would be worth it for you I think.

      1. H.C.*

        I would also add to explore different nonprofits to see what opportunities they have; if you’re not committed to a specific set of causes, consider branching out to nonprofits that pay more competitively (e.g. healthcare, technology, large foundations)

  106. Ktelzbeth*

    I’m looking for suggestions to help with scheduling. We are three professionals who have to write our own rotating call schedule and have previously done it in month blocks, so it’s been pretty easy. Now, we want to go to week-long blocks instead. Is there a computer program or website that is free and will make this easier than me having to collect it all on pieces of paper? Thank you!

    1. LCL*

      Excel works great for simple scheduling, that’s what I use. For hourly employees, if you can organize the blocks by pay period it can help.

  107. Volunteer Wrangler*

    Does anyone have recommendations for books, articles, websites, etc. for effectively working within volunteer organizations? I’ve gotten fairly heavily involved with volunteer professional organizations in my field and we have what I suspect are pretty typical problems with volunteers flaking out, knowledge getting lost as leadership turns over, committees being asked to take on projects they lack infrastructure for, etc. I’m interested in any resources on how to make things run more smoothly.

    1. Moonlight Doughnut*

      Nothing to recommend but, golly, I desperately want to know if anyone else does. Because yes, those are super typical problems.

  108. TacoTsunami*

    Hi everyone, any tips for a first time manager? I have a direct report for the first time, and his role is temporary but VERY outcome based: Think: We need to move all of our teacups from warehouse a to warehouse b and update any records accordingly, and have it all done in eight weeks.

    I set up a weekly check-in meeting, and a shared working agenda/document for all questions, concerns, action steps and progress. I’ve also been sitting in on his initial meetings, making any needed connections with other employees, soliciting feedback from those other employees after meetings, and generally trying to be a support without being overbearing (he has the exact skills we need to do the job and the method is less important than the outcome). I’m making myself as available as needed, and making sure he has all the proper access, credentials, support materials and training. How else can I set him up for success?

    1. Auntie Social*

      Ask him what the next 2 steps are, and who and what (equipment and permits) he needs for them. Make sure he’s on the current page but also the next page.

    2. My cat is my alarm clock*

      “I’ve also been sitting in on his initial meetings, making any needed connections with other employees“

      Woah. Why are you doing this? It’s great that you want to be supportive, but if my manager shadowed me in meetings and made connections I needed to make I would probably feel a bit smothered. Is this kind of micromanagement (sorry but it does sound like micromanagement) normal in your company?

      My advice would be to take a step back. If he needs to make connections, tell him who to contact and let him handle it himself so he can establish the contact. Stop sitting in on his meetings. I’m not even clear on why you’re asking everyone for feedback – honestly I think you might need to back off and give him some space. Managing someone doesn’t mean monitoring and overseeing everything they do.

      Otherwise, I’d say it would be a good idea to make sure he knows about stuff going on in the company so long as it’s applicable for someone temporary – like in-house training opportunities, EAP, whatever it is that permanent employees would be told about.

  109. Jasmine*

    Hey guys, I’ve been out of work for a while and would like your input in regards to addressing this in a cover letter.

    I’m a young professional (27 year old) who still lives at home with parents. Last July, my mom suffered a severe stroke and I decided to leave my FT customer service job of three years in September to focus on taking care of her. I had enough money saved up to do it, plus my dad has a really good job with an engineering firm. With his crazy schedule, plus the fact that we don’t have a lot of nearby family and me being an only child, it was easier for me to take time off than him. Fortunately, she has improved a lot and I’ve decided to look for work again.

    Should I address the circumstances why I haven’t been working in my cover letter? I’m kinda worried that some places might discard my app if they see that I’ve been out of work since September. On the flip side, I’ve read online that if you say something like “taking care of a sick family member,” lots of managers are automatically skeptical and assume you’re lying. Apparently people have used that before to explain large gaps. I left my previous employer on great terms and I know they would take me back, but I really want to do something with a bit more responsibility/greater pay this time around which is why I’m looking elsewhere.

    Because of what we’ve been through the past several months, I’m really interested in doing something in the healthcare industry, like a customer service rep, patient recruiter, patient scheduler, etc. I was wondering if I could explain my situation in a cover letter for any of the jobs I’m looking for.

    1. leya*

      i would completely ignore anyone who says that hiring managers assume you’re lying when you say you took time off to take care of a sick family member. almost everyone is going to take that at face value (and have sympathy for it) and anyone who doesn’t is not someone you want to work for. alison has addressed situations that are really similar to this (and i’ll link if i can find any – one of her cover letter examples addresses someone having been a stay at home parent before returning to the workforce) and her advice was more or less exactly your thoughts: do briefly mention it in your cover letter; be prepared to briefly mention it again in an interview (though you may not need to); but still keep the focus on the job you’re applying to and why you would be great at it.

      that being said, if it makes you feel better or if income is an issue, would you be able to go back to your previous employer part-time while you look for other positions? it might soothe you a little bit in terms of how the gap in your resume looks (that is to say, that a prospective employer would see that you did have a gap but that your old job took you back so it couldn’t have been because you were a terrible employee). that really isn’t necessary – hiring managers are people, and they’re not out to assume that you’re an awful person because difficult things happened to you! – but it may help you feel better about the situation, and get you some income while you’re looking for other things.

      good luck – i’ll be rooting for you!

      1. leya*

        here’s the cover letter example i mentioned, written by a former stay at home parent: https://www.askamanager.org/2017/10/heres-another-real-life-sample-of-a-great-cover-letter.html

        and here’s a more general question about resume gaps that gets right to the heart of what you’re asking: https://www.askamanager.org/2015/11/how-much-do-resume-gaps-matter.html
        to quote: “When employers see large gaps between jobs, they wonder what happened: Did you leave the previous job with nothing lined up, and if so, why? Were you fired? Did you blow up one day and walk off the job in a fit of rage? Were you working somewhere that you’ve deliberately left off your resume, and if so, are you trying to hide something that would be concerning if I knew about it? Or was there a perfectly understandable reason?
        If the answer is “we moved to a new state,” “I had a baby and took a year off,” “I had a family health situation that has since been resolved,” or other perfectly understandable reasons, the gap isn’t likely to be an issue. An employer will just want to hear what was behind it, and an answer like that should put it to rest.”

        hope this helps!

      2. Quartz*

        Leya wrote, “would you be able to go back to your previous employer part-time while you look for other positions? it might soothe you a little bit in terms of how the gap in your resume looks (that is to say, that a prospective employer would see that you did have a gap but that your old job took you back so it couldn’t have been because you were a terrible employee).”

        Wouldn’t a prospective employer reach the same conclusion when they get told by her old company that she is eligible for rehire? “I guess Jasmine couldn’t have been that terrible if they would be happy to rehire her again.” I don’t think she necessarily has to run back to the old job just to prove that she wasn’t a bad employee.

    2. Drax*

      I’ve done a lot of interviews over the years and I rarely get asked what I was doing in between Job A and Job B when a family emergency moved me back to my home city for about 6 months.

      Especially if you can offer a reference from the company in question people don’t really think twice about it. I wouldn’t put it in a cover letter, focus on the career change there.

      In an interview if you say it with sincerity and a small detail I doubt people assume you’re lying about taking care of a sick relative, especially if you willing to give more details like “my mom had a stroke and required additional care, she’s since rebounded so I am able to return to work”. I personally just say “there was a family emergency and I had to move to city Z for a short while” and that was it, most people nod and move on but I think once someone said “that must have been tough” and then onto the next question. Life happens, people get it.

    3. Engineer Girl*

      Absolutely mention it in your cover letter. It shows a high level of responsibility. It’s easy to verify the truth with a few quick questions. I want to know why you have a job gap and your explanation is a good one.

      Many of us had to take leave to care for family members. This is not a shock to anyone.

  110. Antilles*

    Any non-obvious ideas for things to remember about moving into a new office space?
    Due to some reorganizations, lots of new hiring, blah blah blah, I am moving from my current office into a different one. This will be a shared office (as opposed to my current solo office), but the other guy isn’t joining the company for weeks, so this is my chance to basically establish things the best way without hassles.
    Thus far my list includes the most obvious items – rearranging the furniture, sorting through my current items so there’s less to move, getting rid of stuff, actually moving my computer/boxes/etc, hanging my wall decorations, etc…but just wanted to see if anybody had any major hiccups that I should make sure are arranged so I don’t end up kicking myself days/weeks from now that I forgot ___.

    1. Antilles*

      (Just to add: This is moving from one floor to another within the same building, so I’m not calling utility companies or whatever – I’m just responsible for actually physically moving my stuff and setting up the space)

    2. revueller*

      Will the wifi be the same? Do you need extension cords if the plug situation is different? Do you need a phone?

      Those are the only things I can think of.

      1. Antilles*

        Good call. I actually did need a new power strip, because the desk is a couple feet wider than my previous one – just enough that my old one didn’t quite reach.

    3. Mockingjay*

      Don’t forget cleaning supplies. Some cloths and spray cleaner at a minimum. Because no one ever wipes out desk drawers.

      1. Antilles*

        I hadn’t thought of that, but got some and it really helped the new place. I also cleaned off the shelves I left behind as a politeness to the next guy.

    4. Earthwalker*

      Don’t let the mover leave your chair and wastebasket behind. Be sure to pack all your cables and power cords.

      1. Antilles*

        Wouldn’t have thought of the wastebasket, but that was a good idea and I made sure that came along. Thanks!

  111. Anonimous*

    Hello,
    Have you ever been confronted to a manager wanting to increase your sales target one month before the end of the book year? (I had an unusual good year this year – we work with yearly sales target). The thing is that this is a dual job and they claim that since some projects were cancelled, I could invest (a little bit) more hours in sales this year and that they should increase the target based on this. This means of course me earning less commission if we use a higher target compared to the initial one.

    1. KarenT*

      Do you have a contract for your original target? If so, don’t sign a new one. I hate to be overly cynical, but I don’t for a second believe they’re not trying to reduce your commission pay out, especially given the late in the game shift.
      I’d try to talk them down and say you’re almost at year end and you’d be open to a bigger target for next year (they’ll force it anyway).

  112. Jessen*

    Easy question – what’s been your favorite workwear purchase?

    Mine’s been a pair of sweatshirt material blazers. It would look silly here if I showed up in an actual structured blazer, but I don’t want to wear cardigans all the time and tend to be a bit too formally dressed to wear actual sweatshirts or fleece jackets (although people do). So they hit the right note while still keeping me warm.

    1. Catsaber*

      Where did you get them? I’d like something like that too!

      My favorite workwear purchase is cheap non-prescip glasses with blue blocker lenses. I don’t need glasses to see but the blue blockers dramatically reduce my eye fatigue throughout the day. So I bought about 3 pairs and change them up with my outfits. They work great as an accessory for me because I don’t wear makeup and have a very young looking face, so the glasses make me look more like “accomplished adult professional” instead of “student worker who got lost”.

      2. Eleanor Shellstrop*

        Ooh I have these too! As a fellow possessor of sensitive eyes and a baby face, I totally get it. I recently got new monitors at work that have very customizable brightness/warmth settings, so now I don’t really need the glasses, but there’s something about them that just feels professional, you know?

      4. Jessen*

        I got mine at Walmart. But I’ve seen similar items at old navy and banana republic, and target has a fairly cheap similar option right now (look up a new day bi-stretch twill blazer).

      5. TCO*

        I love the sweater blazers from the J. Crew Factory Store. So cute, so comfortable, easy to wash, and look great with jeans or with dress pants for a not-too-formal business look.

      6. Bananatiel*

        I’ve gotten both of my soft, unstructured blazers from Nordstrom on super-sale. I believe both are the Caslon brand.

    2. Some Sort of Management Consultant*

      Comfy “pull on” dresses that look causal in sneakers and dressed-up in heels.
      And Fenty’s Stunna lipstick in Red. That stuff stays on through ANYthing.

      1. Catsaber*

        Where do you get your dresses? I like pull on knit dresses but most of the time they are too short or too thin. I’d like something that hits the knees and is a thicker knit.

        1. The New Wanderer*

          Not the OP but I have two casual but still work appropriate dresses from Athleta (one is Santorini style, the other is not offered anymore but their knit material is good and length is knee length for me at 5’4″), and one from the Gap from a few seasons ago.

    3. Elizabeth West*

      I had one of these and I LOVED it. Unfortunately, it finally fell apart. I’d love to find another one.

    4. CTT*

      Mine is a sweatshirt material dress! It’s Boden, so it looks very formal and structured, but it feels like pajamas.

    5. Eleanor Shellstrop*

      Mine is also a soft material blazer, it was originally $60 at Nordstrom Rack but when I went to buy it, it rang up as ONE PENNY!! Something about inventory that was discontinued? This has never happened to me before or since, but now every time I wear this (very sensible, black) blazer, I get a little boost of joy knowing it was basically free.

    6. JustaTech*

      Oh I love those! I’ve had a bunch and I wore through the elbow on the green one and the grey one.

      I even had my VP ask me if I was interviewing because I wore one (with a funny T-shirt, jeans and purple rose Vans), so they’re a very comfy way to bump your look way up.

    7. Overeducated*

      Black tights. My office is freezing. They go with almost everything. I love my black tights.

    8. KarenT*

      Sweatshirt material blazers are an underrated treasure
      I have three, and they are amazing. My best friend is on maternity leave and lives right by my office so we often meet for lunch. She commented the other day she was loving my new “am I dressy am I casual?” wardrobe and I can say I’m weirdly flattered by this description.

      1. Jessen*

        It’s the perfect look for the more casual office! I look really young, so if I showed up in the jeans and a sweatshirt that most of the guys wear I’d look like someone brought their kid to work. But I also don’t want to look like I’m just completely out of touch with what everyone is wearing.

  113. Anastasia Beaverhausen*

    Summary: How to let hiring manger know you are OK with taking a step down in your next role.

    We recently had our assistant director for our office leave, and because I was the next best option, i was asked to step into the role. I couldn’t really say no, as it was a great opportunity and a pay raise that really helped my family. Additionally, the department would really struggle filling the role with an external candidate and the need for someone to step in ASAP was big. But to be honest, I did not really want it, as I have been actively looking for jobs in another state to be closer to family and knew I was going to leave within the year.

    I have been in this role for a little over 6 months now, and have been actively applying again. But have heard little back, and I worry my new job title is hindering my job search. My problem is— I dont really care about moving to another assistant director role. I am happy being mid-level and technically “stepping down” in my next job. But i worry hiring managers are seeing that come across. How do I let them know that?

    1. revueller*

      I think alison has talked about this, but if it were an issue with a hiring manager, they would ask you directly why you’re applying for X role. It should be perfectly okay to say, “I took this position to fill in an internal vacancy, but it hasn’t been the greatest fit for my needs.” and then explain what interests you about the position you’re applying for.

      1. Rusty Shackelford*

        And I’d do that even sooner – put it in your cover letter, and emphasize that you’re looking forward to getting back to X role instead.

  114. Moonlight Doughnut*

    I work in an organization with a very friendly culture, and it’s common to greet nearly everyone you pass in the hallway even if you don’t know them. I tend to use “hi” and “good morning”, which are really easy to use as you’re walking quickly by people going the opposite direction. But, overwhelmingly, the standard greeting people use is “How are you?” or “How’r you doing?” I’m never sure the best way to respond to this kind of greeting!

    Because it’s just a quick, reflexive greeting, I’m pretty sure no one is actually looking for an answer about your current status. If I do answer with “Great! How are you?” it feels awkward because there’s not actually time for the other person to respond to me before we’ve completely walked passed each other. If I just answer “Great!”, the exchange feels really unbalanced (since I’ve told them about me but didn’t bother to ask about them). I’ve tried replying (or talking simultaneously) with “hi” or “good morning” but that seems rude because it doesn’t actually answer the question posed. What’s the best professional/friendly reply when “How are you?” is used as a quick greeting but is not intended to be a conversation opener. Do I just say “How are you?” back?

    (Yeah, I’m totally overthinking this, but that’s true of most things.)

      1. Montresaur*

        After overthinking this very issue myself, I’ve finally settled on this ^

        It’s warm, quick, and appreciative of the other person. If they stop to chat, you can always tack on an “And you?”

    2. Lilysparrow*

      “How’r you doing?” is the literal translation of “Howdy.”

      Just answer “Hi,” or “Hey there.” It’s not a literal question requiring a logical answer.

  115. NotaPirate*

    Hey, a job I’m applying for my friend interviewed with last year and had a weird question. They asked if friend could commit to multiple years at their company. Is this normal? Do you just lie and say yes? If they make you sign anything is it in any way binding? Location is USA. Company is research thru a hospital. Staying in a job for me depends on so many things I dont yet know at the interview stage (hows management style, can I tolerate my coworkers) and life events.

    1. Elizabeth West*

      Ugh, I just filled out an app yesterday that asked me this in an intense drop-down quiz. I just picked a few years–there is no way I can know the future. I might love it and want to stay forever. I might get married and move away. A job from Heaven in another state might drop in my lap. Who knows?

      AFAIK re binding, if it’s at-will employment, they can’t force you to stay unless you signed a contract stating those terms. With relocation money or tuition expenses paid by the company, you might have to stay for a certain period of time. But those terms are usually spelled out in advance.

      1. Rusty Shackelford*

        Yeah, all of this. I’d say something like “of course I can’t predict the future, but I’m hoping to stay in my next position for at least x-y years.”

    2. A Simple Narwhal*

      Definitely don’t lie if you know for a fact you won’t be sticking around. But barring that I wouldn’t outright say yes – if you truly have the good intention to stay for several years (no current plans to go back to school or move or stay just a year while you wait for your llama grooming business to take off) if things go well, then you can state that you are looking for a position you can commit to long term/for multiple years (if that’s the case). That way you can give them what they’re looking for, but it leaves you the opening to allow yourself to leave in the off-chance life throws you a curveball or the job/boss turns out to suck.

      Chances are, this company is probably just trying to weed out people who do know that they won’t be around very long (like if a lot of people tend to go back to grad school after a year or it’s near a military base so they might have to leave every year when their spouse gets reassigned but it normally takes a year+ for a person to really be settled in the position). And unless they make you sign a contract, they can’t actually make you stay.

      And if you do end up needing to leave earlier than they had hoped, there’s always the stand by “I had intended to stay longer but I couldn’t predict that [curveball] would happen/pass up this opportunity/etc”.

    3. Maya Elena*

      Obviously you can’t say 100%; and this sort of “commitment”, unless you’re signing an actual contract, is more like “I do not have concrete plans to go to graduate school in a year”, and “I am not just taking this job to pay my bills for six months”.
      I think you can answer “yes” with a clear conscience if you can see yourself staying at the job and company for many years, assuming the conditions, environment, growth opportunities, etc. are decent and comparable to what they seem to be right now.
      I don’t think anyone will hold it against you if you need to leave because you get married and your husband moves to Indiana, or you have a child and decide to stay home, or your parent is sick and you move back to care for them… or the myriad other totally reasonable reasons people leave jobs.
      This is different if you’re signing a 5-year contract or something.

      “While nobody can predict the future, I do look at this as a long-term position”.
      One time, I was interviewing for a job out of college and they asked if I was planning to stay in the local area permanently: they were looking for someone in for the long haul, and I wanted to go back home, which probably came across in my non-committal answer, and I didn’t get called back – which is fine.

    4. Public Health Nerd*

      If it’s on a research grant, they are trying to figure out if their team can stay for the project. They’re also trying to weed out grad students and people doing research between undergrad and med school. Just be honest with what you’re looking for, and you’ll be fine (eg: not looking for short term work).

    5. Lilysparrow*

      If your friend signs an employment contract with a fixed term, then yes it is binding. But that’s not going to happen at an interview. It’s a job offer, and they should read & consider the terms of the contract very carefully before signing to make sure they understand what they are committing to and what they will receive in return. It’s normal to negotiate the terms of a contract before both parties sign.

      If it’s just an interview question, it’s the equivalent of “where do you see yourself in five years?” If the answer is “Not here!” then that’s going to affect what type of role they’ll be considered for.

  116. Phryne Fisher*

    A somewhat AITA question..

    My department went out for a team-building lunch at a moderately priced restaurant ($$ on Yelp.) My coworker ordered the most expensive item on the menu. When the bill came, manager expressed dismay because the cost would be over whatever budget she had proposed to our director. Manager paid for the difference on her own credit card.

    Half of our department feels that manager is in the wrong – if we’re having a team lunch, we should order whatever we want.

    The other half feel that our coworker shouldn’t have ordered such an expensive meal.. it 2x as much as anyone else’s meal.

    Who was in the wrong?

    1. Some Sort of Management Consultant*

      Did they actually tell you that beforehand?
      I don’t think you can say your coworker did anything wrong if no one told her she couldn’t order some above $XX..

    2. Tina Belcher's Less Cool Sister*

      I don’t think anyone is “wrong”, but the department needs to come up with clear guidelines, for example, that the company will cover up to $15 (or whatever) per person and if they’d like to order something more expensive, they’ll have to cover the difference. If anything the company is the a-hole for making the manager cover the difference out of pocket rather than just eating the expense due to their lack of a clear policy.

      If I were in your department I’d chalk this up to a lesson learned and hopefully next time things will be clear from the get go.

    3. NotaPirate*

      I’m going to say no one was the jerk and it’s a learning experience. Manager should say we’re going here and you can get anything under X amount or pick a cheaper location where everything is affordable. There’s so many dietary restrictions and preferences that coworker may not even have deliberately gotten the most $$$ thing, it may have just been appealing to them.

      1. Mediamaven*

        I think it’s just a bit gauche to order the most expensive thing on the menu when someone else is treating and most people know that. They definitely should communicate that moving forward, but it is a bit of a etiquette thing as well.

    4. Not Me*

      I think the manager was a bit of a jerk for saying something in front of everyone. If the manager knew there was a budget to stick to, should’ve told you all ahead of time. Since they didn’t, it’s on the manager.

      The employee should know enough to keep in mind the price of meals when someone else is paying though too. It’s pretty standard etiquette to not order the most expensive thing on the menu when someone else is footing the bill. Unless they thought they’d be paying for their own meal.

      1. Mediamaven*

        My thoughts exactly. I was about to say all of this, but you already did so here to agree.

    5. CatCat*

      Well, the manager should not have expressed dismay and talked about exceeding the budget and covering the rest in front of the team. That was not cool. Certainly sounds morale-killing more than team-building.

      I’m having a hard time imaging how much of a big deal the difference here is. I’m imagining something like a $15-$25 difference for a main dish at a moderately priced restaurant. It doesn’t sound like the coworker here did anything extravagant like ordering booze, appetizers, and dessert on top of the main dish.

      If there’s a cap on how much per person, the manager needs to express that ahead of time. Cheerfully: “Looking forward to the lunch at [Restaurant]! Just FYI, the company budgeted $X per person so please be conscious of that when ordering.”

      1. valentine*

        Well, the manager should not have expressed dismay and talked about exceeding the budget and covering the rest in front of the team. That was not cool. Certainly sounds morale-killing more than team-building.
        Right. They didn’t have to pay the difference, either. And did the director request the max or did the manager volunteer it?

        I don’t bother about prices. I focus on what I can eat that won’t: potentially make me ill, require a lot of customizing (because it increases the chances they’ll get it wrong), or take forever to cook (meat very well done). Either you’re treating or you’re not. It’s rude to expect someone to forego the most expensive item for that reason, especially when you didn’t help them help you stick to your budget.

    6. My cat is my alarm clock*

      Your manager is in the wrong for not telling people how much they could spend.

  117. I Work on a Hellmouth*

    Hello from the Hellmouth, lovely people! It has been quite the week. Getting the saddest (for me) news out of the way first, I got a rejection letter for the position at Local Big University. But while I am bummed, I have not had a great deal of time to reflect on it… because I literally received the email at the exact moment that HELL BOSS WAS TERMINATED. YES. TERMINATED. YOU READ THAT CORRECTLY.

    So, you know, like I said… it’s been quite the week. Have a happy Friday, everyone!

    …just kidding! Not about Hell Boss being terminated. Just about leaving everyone here who has been so kind and supportive about the whole Hell Boss situation in the dark about how this miracle occurred. You definitely deserve to know how it went down. If the defeat of an IRL villain is something that will be of interest to you, please read on.
    If you have come across any previous Hellmouth updates, you probably know about Hell Boss and her awful Hell Boss ways. You might know about the continuous ransacking and/or rearranging of my desk any time that I was out, and about the hidden microphones and cameras around the general office and in my specific office. You might also know that that things have been getting increasingly weird/terrible, and that I finally was able to go to HR a few weeks ago (but it was increasingly looking like nothing was going to happen other than my vengeful Boss probably knowing that the only person left in her office reported her to HR). Well, on Monday I came in and the cameras and microphones were all magically gone, and my boss kept beaming and, hand to Flying Spaghetti Monster, TRILLING like a Disney Princess whenever she spoke to me. And not one of the sassy ones. Think, like, Snow White levels of trilling. And she was grabbing work from me, and saying things like “Here, let me take this, you seem overloaded. Hey, let me take over this move-in for you, I will electronically send out this lease” and all manner of sentences the likes of which I have never heard her utter, let alone while full on TWINKLING at me. It was utterly bizarre and so far out of character that it actually made me kind of anxious. The Super Bestie Sorority Buddies act continued until I left for lunch, and so I thought to myself, well, I guess HR *did* have a talk with her, and now she’ll probably be disconcertingly nice to me for a few weeks before she finds a way to punish me. And then I came back from lunch, and everything was completely different again. (Continued as a reply so people who aren’t interested have an easier time collapsing and scrolling).

    1. I Work on a Hellmouth*

      Awesome Temp was on the phone with a resident when I walked back in to the office, and kept desperately trying to mouth something to me about my boss being on the phone the entire time that I was gone. And then suddenly my boss emerged from the office, but was no longer making eye contact and was looking kind of…vacant, I guess, and seemed intent on not speaking to me. Then a tour came in and I had to leave the office before AT could slip me any further detail, and by the time I got back she was leaving for lunch. As soon as AT was out of the door, my boss disappeared for about half an hour before coming in looking extreeeeeeeeeeeeemely angry and wordlessly locking her office door before spitting out that she was going to lunch. So. Clearly we were no longer BFF.
      About ten minutes before she returned from her lunch break (one hour on the dot, another thing that had never happened before) the maintenance supervisor came by to say that he had overheard her talking on the phone to HR, and that what he heard seemed very strange. Three minutes before her return an email from my HR rep landed in my inbox, asking a weird question about a particularly crazy incident that I had documented and submitted along with everything else (short version—and hold onto your butt for this one—she sued former employees from a company that she got fired from for “plotting against her” and going to HR and ultimately causing her termination, and forced me to accompany her to court ON THE CLOCK and also tried to make me take the stand and perjure myself to help her case) and asking if I could speak to her for a few minutes that afternoon so she could update me on the closing of the case. As I was sending my answers off to my HR rep (no, there were no eviction files for my property in the room where the judge sequestered me before dismissing me, it wasn’t even the location where we file for evictions; yes, I could call her when I went to walk vacant apartments in a few minutes), my HR rep called my cellphone just as my boss came stomping in and, without a word, slammed her door and locked herself into her office. I surreptitiously checked my voicemail, and heard my HR rep say something about needing to ask me a question and update me on the status of the case before apologizing profusely for calling me on “my day off,” and saying that she had sent an email to my work email before remembering that I wasn’t there. Since there was no reason to think that I would be off of work, and a lot of distressing slamming sounds were coming from my boss’s office, I figured I had probably call her back pretty quickly to figure out what the heck was going on.
      I grabbed the golf cart keys, headed out for the vacant apartment furthest from the office, and dialed her up… only to immediately be interrogated about whether I was really at work today, had I been at work all day, had I maybe just come in unexpectedly, and did I know that my boss had told the HR rep that she was “working all alone” all day. HR Rep was extremely distressed and couldn’t figure out why my boss would indicate I was off, but eventually moved on to her questions about the court day, followed by questions about any weird behavior that my boss might be exhibiting. So I answered her questions, told her about the sudden shift to unpleasantness and locking herself in her office and the weird slamming sounds, and then nearly fell over when the HR rep told me 1) My boss was going to be fired sometime between then and today, 2) My boss did not know this was going to happen, but 3) She knew it was a possibility, so 4) I needed to call or text my HR rep immediately if she approached me about anything. She told me that my boss had made many provably dishonest statements and has also been dishonest about The Good Leasing Consultant (who also talked to HR after giving his notice and leaving) and about several issues involving me, and that our names had never been used when talking to my boss and she hopefully would not know that we had reported her to HR.

      As soon as we got off of the phone, I received a text message from AT—my boss had yelled that she would be right back, run out of the office, jumped into some lady’s car, and sped off. I immediately headed back to the office… and discovered my boss and her friend/former assistant from a few jobs and years back crouched in a running SUV parked next to the model apartment. Don’t ask what they were doing, I have no idea. I just know there were there for about half an hour before my boss wandered back into the office and locked herself into her office again, only opening the door when the maintenance supervisor or I knocked on it with specific work questions, until 6:00. Which is when she came out and kind of kicked me out of the office.

      This morning when I got in, she was already there, and was… well, pretty unpleasant. She seemed to relax a little when no one from corporate strolled in to can her, but then the phone rang. Caller ID revealed that it was our HR rep, and she snatched up her phone and slammed her door in one movement. We heard her go “Yes,” “Okay,” “I understand,” I understand,” and we clearly heard a phone slam, then some light rustling. The door opened and she came out and locked it, purse and desk ledger in hand, turned to me and hissed “Caroline,” and waited a beat for me to make eye contact. “NEVER CONTACT ME AGAIN.” And off she stomped, right out of the door. It really was like a mini scene with Joan Collins in an OG episode of Dynasty, except I didn’t get slapped or thrown into a fountain and neither of us were wearing turbans. Of course, she immediately called each member of the maintenance team and told them that “the motherf**kers in the office” got her fired. Because she is nothing but classy and also clearly a Very Wronged Party.

      But if you’ve made it this far for whatever reason, can we talk a minute about my new nickname, “The Motherf*cker”? Because it’s really growing on me. I want to use it to sign all of my correspondence moving forward. Picture it. “Sincerely, The Motherf**ker” “Fondest regards, The Motherf*cker” “Kisses, The Motherf*cker” It really tickles me. I think I should embrace this new persona.

      So, since then it has been a whirlwind. I’m sure it’s a huge surprise to learn that Hell Boss was actually awful at her job and that terrible mistakes and mishandled issues and chaos have all been popping up ever since she walked out of the door. Corporate did send in a Foster Boss for the week, who is lovely, but no one knows who will be here next week (or when) and I’m just kind of desperately trying to hold the office together. But guys, it is still 1000% better than having Hell Boss here.

      1. Bee's Knees*

        Wow. Wow, wow. My mouth is hanging open. I am so glad she got fired, but dang. Girl went out more or less how I expected her to. Maybe with less throwing.

        1. Bee's Knees*

          Also, I love that you had to be warned not to contact her. But you were besties, after all. It’s important for you to know your friendship is dead. :-)

          1. I Work on a Hellmouth*

            Yeah. I was doing my best to pretend that I didn’t know she was being fired, but I didn’t have to fake being stunned by that one. Also noteworthy: She had clearly been practicing it. I can’t decide if that’s hilarious or… well, I dunno, not hilarious.

            1. Bee's Knees*

              Is that the kind of thing you practice in the mirror? Or just in your car, right before you go in?

              1. I Work on a Hellmouth*

                In front of a full length mirror. That slow turn was VERY choreographed.

      4. animaniactoo*

        Wow. I have to say that I am STUNNED. STUNNED. That they did not have somebody come out face to face to fire her and did it over the phone!

        Have an awesome day. Fingers crossed for whoever shows up next week!

        2. I Work on a Hellmouth*

          Yeah, that was SUPER ALARMING at the time. If next week’s Foster Boss is half as nice as this week’s Foster Boss, I will be thrilled.

        3. CupcakeCounter*

          Agreed – this seems like a face to face thing that needs to be done ESPECIALLY with the stuff Hellmouth (aka The Motherf**ker) and GLC have reported simply for the non-fired employee’s protection!

          1. I Work on a Hellmouth*

            Can I just say that “(aka The Motherf**ker)” is possibly my favorite parenthetical aside of all time?

      5. Salyan*

        I have rarely been so thoroughly and completely happy for a complete stranger in my life. I am SO GLAD that you don’t have to put up with her anymore!

        2. I Work on a Hellmouth*

          Thank you! The Hellmouth is still Hellmouthy, but it’s still a massive improvement.

          1. BadWolf*

            Is it possible that you will be promoted and than you can Buffy-ize that place into shape?

            1. TooTiredToThink*

              I’m hoping that happens until she’s able to find a job that she actually wants to do.

            2. I Work on a Hellmouth*

              Oh god, I hope not. This place needs someone VERY seasoned and experienced, even in the short term. Also, I think I would rather throw myself to the squirrels.

        1. I Work on a Hellmouth*

          That was literally all I could think for the first hour after Hell Boss was let go.

      8. SQL Coder Cat*

        Wow! I’m hoping your stress level has gone down dramatically. I know a much better job is coming your way, but in the meantime the new situation sounds much more survivable.

        1. I Work on a Hellmouth*

          In some ways, it definitely has. Not being constantly recorded or having to avoid insane traps has definitely helped my anxiety levels. Being literally the only real office employee left while the Hellmouth continues Hellmouthing is crazy exhausting/impossible to keep up with, but… it is still better than before.

      9. Catherine Tilney*

        As someone who has been following this story for a while, GO, MOTHERF***R, GO! Embrace your new identity and freedom!!! Any chance they may want to put you in charge after this (not that you might want that)?

        1. I Work on a Hellmouth*

          Hahahahahaha, DO NOT WANT! If they offer it, I will definitely turn it down.

      10. Lalaith*

        Woooo-wee that was a ride! I’m so happy for you that she’s gone. I hope you’ll only have the squirrels to regale us about from now on ;)

      11. CatCat*

        OMFG.

        I’m both sad and glad for you! Sorry the other job didn’t pan out, but it sounds like things at the Hellmouth may actually improve drastically after this Game of Thrones-level shocking development!

        1. I Work on a Hellmouth*

          I honestly would have felt like a monster if I gave notice the very day that they fired Hell Boss, so maybe a similarly awesome job is about to come open and the universe is actually working everything out.

      12. Can't Sit Still*

        This is amazing! Congratulations!

        I’m not thrilled about HR firing her over the phone, though; someone that toxic should be escorted out and not be on their honor to turn their keys, etc. over.

        1. I Work on a Hellmouth*

          I was not thrilled either. It was definitely highly uncomfortable. Hell Boss definitely assumed it was coming, though–after she drove off we opened up her office, and she had apparently stripped it bare the night before.

      13. Move Over Thrawn - Florian Munteanu is BIGGER than you!*

        Awesome sauce! Simply not enough adjectives to describe how very supremely awesome this is. And maybe now you won’t need a new job, not if you get a sane boss soon.

        Also, please ignore that rude person from last week who complained about your updates.

        1. I Work on a Hellmouth*

          Thank you! Although a new job is still verrrrry much needed, even with Hell Boss gone the Hellmouth is still Hellmouthy, lol.

      14. leya*

        CONGRATULATIONS!!!!!! i know this isn’t the exact outcome i’d been hoping for for you (and i still have my fingers crossed that you land at a job whose physical location is not deeply cursed) but this is the next best thing!!!

        1. I Work on a Hellmouth*

          Thank you! I am definitely taking a victory/relief lap on this one!

      16. LCL*

        Well, I gotta post this because that’s what I do. Have you heard the phrase ‘better the devil you know?’…
        Though it would be hard to find someone to be worse than Hell Boss. I am waiting for your book, your writing is hilarious.

        1. I Work on a Hellmouth*

          Yes, yes I have. Also, dealing with the whole Hellmouth with no real manager has been almost impossibly overwhelming. But man oh man, the thought of even the meanest and most incompetent boss doesn’t phase me at this point, I do not believe anyone could be worse than Hell Boss turned out to be.

              1. Troutwaxer*

                It’s much too late to burn sage.

                According to the Necronomicon, “…whomsoever doth defeat the old High Priestess of ye Great Old Ones, by means fair or foul, whether by accident or design, shall she become the new High Priestess, and the mind of Yog Sothoth shall go unto her mind, and the mind of Chtulhu likewise, and the mind of the Black Goat With A Thousand Young, and divers other minds shall grant the wisdom of foul darkness to the New Priestess, and she shall reign supreme, commanding the hosts of the rabid and the serpentine, and the creepy yard guy shall bow to her and the Place of Many Angled Foulness shall be hers to command, and the wyrms shall gnaw her brain until, by her handmaiden is she overthrown, and the cycle begins anew, for under the Hellmouth is the entrance to the nethermost caverns, where dark lights glow in worship of gods unspeakable…”

                2. I Work on a Hellmouth*

                  Well, technically HR overthrew her (although I think you could also make an argument that she defeated herself), so I hope that they have fun with that… ;)

      17. Drew*

        This is me. Dancing. Happily. For you. Please enjoy my happydance.

        Sucky news about the other job, so my happydance has a couple of missed steps. But overall, what a good week.

        1. I Work on a Hellmouth*

          Happydances all around! While I am sad about not getting the other job, I can keep looking without having a boss-induced nervous breakdown now. Yeehaw!

      18. Dollis Hill*

        I’m really sorry about the job rejection, but glad your awful boss is finally gone – I hope this means that your time at work will be a little easier to deal with! I also hope she doesn’t try and get back on site or attempt any other form of retaliation. As ever, I’m crossing my fingers that you’ll get a job offer soon and finally manage to escape the Hellmouth!

        1. I Work on a Hellmouth*

          She is definitely going to sue me or send me glitter bombs or do SOMETHING. But I don’t even care. It’s like 10,000 pounds have been lifted from my shoulders.

      19. Pilcrow*

        Wow. I suspected from your last few updates that the HellBoss knew she was on thin ice. Glad that Corporate finally got off their duffs and fired her. I’ll bet that there was probably A LOT more funny business going on – stuff with legal and/or financial impact to the company – than anyone knows yet.

        Someone mentioned downthread she should have been escorted from the building… did Corporate take any security precautions? I’d recommend Foster Boss getting all the locks changed in the office and giving you a security escort to your car. ExHellBoss is vengeful.

        LOL, Foster Boss!

        1. I Work on a Hellmouth*

          Yeah, I am thinking they uncovered a lot on their own, but TGLC and I also gave them a lot of documentation that pointed towards payroll fraud and some potential HUD issues (in addition to not so legally recording us). But we DEFINITELY didn’t know everything. I’m sure everyone here will be learning of new and fun things for months to come.

          All of the locks have been changed, so that’s good. That’s pretty much it. But at least she can’t get into anything!

      20. Veryanon*

        Holy schneikies! What an update! I’m actually kind of shocked that they didn’t have boots on the ground, so to speak, for an in person termination, because that could have gone sideways really easily. At any rate, I’m really happy that Hell Boss is gone and you are okay. Please continue to take appropriate steps for your own safety, as Hell Boss would have no compunctions about jumping you in the parking lot, slashing your tires, etc.

        I’m sorry about the awesome other job, but I’m still sending good vibes that something great will come along soon. Now I’m picturing you swanning around as Joan Collins, including turban.

        1. Mockingjay*

          No one fights like the 80s anymore. Glamorous designer outfits, coiffed hair, and heels. Shoulder pads may be askew, but the lipstick is perfect.

          1. I Work on a Hellmouth*

            For real! If it weren’t ungodly hot out, it would be time for the Power Blazer.

          1. misspiggy*

            The second I read ‘turbans’, I pictured you both looking like Joan Collins from the neck up, standard office clothes from the neck down. You could start a trend!

      24. Happy Lurker*

        I opened my celebratory snickers bar and giggled on the first paragraph. Sorry to hear about the University job, but so happy boss is gone. Thanks for the updates and amusement Hellmouth you motherf*cker! ;) Own it!
        I am so happy for you.

        1. I Work on a Hellmouth*

          Thank you! I’m definitely celebrating the victory (and checking for other good openings at LBU).

      25. WoodswomanWrites*

        Wow, amazing news–woohoo! And what a story yet again! Not at all surprised at the dramatic departure or the mess left behind.

      26. MoopySwarpet*

        Now, let’s hope she was also the conduit or whatever you would call the cause of the Hellmouth. Maybe this place will stop getting struck by lightening now that she’s gone. Maybe you’ll get promoted to boss. At the very least, I hope it gives you more time and space to actually breathe and focus on your job search.

        1. I Work on a Hellmouth*

          Definitely not a promotion that I would take, but I am relieved to be able to job search without worrying about my boss making me crack!

      27. DaniCalifornia*

        I have been reading your updates since the start and THAT IS THE MOST AMAZING NEWS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

        1. I Work on a Hellmouth*

          I literally had to sit—on the floor of the vacant apartment that I was in—when the HR rep told me what was going down!

      28. Peachkins*

        OMG. I’m sorry you lost out on the job, and yet I’m so happy for you! I know it isn’t exactly rainbows and puppies there even without the boss, but hopefully things will at least be tolerable without the hellbeast until you find something else.

        1. I Work on a Hellmouth*

          I have more work than I’ve ever had to do in my life and I’ve still been beaming and dancing all week!

      29. Hallowflame*

        As sorry as I am to hear that you didn’t get the other job, I am SOOOOOO HAPPY for you that HellBoss is gone! Congratulations!!!!!
        I would like to point out (not that you need this pointed out to you, you’ve had a front row seat for months) that this is not a stable, rational woman. It is entirely possible that she will pop up at the property or (gods forbid) your home to cause trouble. Also, keep in mind the creepy maintenance guy she’s friends with is still there, which could be a problem.
        Keep copies of all the documentation you have sent to HR so far, and continue documenting on both HellBoss and creepy maintenance guy. I wouldn’t be surprised if HellBoss decided to take legal action against you the same way she did against her previous employees.

        1. I Work on a Hellmouth*

          Oh, she is 100% going to sue me or mail me a glitter bomb or dead fish or something. No hyperbole. But nothing she can do will ever be worse than working under her was, so I guess my current attitude could best be described as “Bring It.”

      30. Twenty Points for the Copier*

        Wow. That is some end and I am SO GLAD you are free of her.

      32. WoodswomanWrites*

        In my enthusiastic response to the news of Hellboss’s departure, I realize I didn’t comment on your not getting the other job. Sorry to hear that news, and glad at least your current situation is dramatically better.

        I’m looking forward to one of these days your having a new user name and being the Poster Formally Known As I Work on a Hellmouth. Something that reflects daisies and butterflies in a fabulous new role.

        1. I Work on a Hellmouth*

          Heh, I look forward to figuring out a new username someday, although I have no idea what it will be yet. Unless, of course, I fully embrace The Motherf**cker… ;)

          1. Seeking Second Childhood*

            It would make it hard for me to keep reading to my kid… which started when I needed to explain why her grandmother was so upset by squirrels in the barn.
            Who on Buffy truly escaped t h e Hellmouth?

      34. kittymommy*

        Holy crap on a cracker!!!! In 1 hour (45 minutes left at work and 15 minutes to get home) I am pouring a glass of the good champagne in your motherf*cking honor and and victory over the evil!!!!

        1. I Work on a Hellmouth*

          Nice! I bought fancy champagne splits on my way home from work after I talked to HR, I love the idea of the party still going!

      35. Teapot Painter*

        I did a fist pump for you!! I’ve been quietly following this whole saga. While it sucks that you weren’t hired at the university, not having the Evil Boss around is SUCH GREAT NEWS!!!! I’m so happy for you!!

        1. I Work on a Hellmouth*

          YES! More job opportunities will open up, but freedom from the tyranny of Hell Boss is HUGE!

          1. Troutwaxer*

            Jokes about Cthulhu aside, you’ll probably interview a lot better after you’ve had a chance to decompress.

            1. Seeking Second Childhood*

              And what an answer you have to “tell me about a time when you dealt with a difficult situation. “

      36. Jaid*

        + INFINITY!!!!!!

        This is so satisfying and I can’t imagine how you can avoid breaking out into giggles of relief.

        1. I Work on a Hellmouth*

          I didn’t! I laughed, I cried, I played 80s music and had a dance party of one!

      37. Persephone Mulberry*

        That. Was. A Ride.

        (After last week, as soon as I had a break at work I came hear and did a CTRL-F search for “Hellmouth” because I knew it was gonna be good.)

        1. I Work on a Hellmouth*

          I honestly thought that I was going to go in on Monday, the cameras and microphones were all still going to be up, and I was going to have a breakdown and walk out. I was STUNNED by the way the week actually went.

      38. Mimmy*

        Wow, this is an awesome update!! I bet that felt like a huge weight being lifted right off your shoulders.

        By the way, I love your storytelling!

        1. I Work on a Hellmouth*

          Thank you! Yes, it really did. I had no idea just how weighed down I was until she drove away!

      39. bunniferous*

        This is a tale worthy of Nicole Cliff.

        So happy for you! I guess the powers that be were too chicken to fire her in person….

        1. I Work on a Hellmouth*

          I think they just didn’t want to wait until they could get someone from corporate down here. Like, I think that they literally were afraid to wait for some reason.

      40. Three Pines Visitor*

        You go, Motherf***ker, Survivor of Hellboss, Fullness of Awesome! I’m deliriously happy for you! TGIF FTW!

      41. Quandong*

        Sorry you didn’t get the job at LBU and also YAY Great News and good riddance to Evil Boss.

        Sending you high fives from the Antipodes, Motherf*cker.

        1. I Work on a Hellmouth*

          And I will accept those high fives and throw in a celebratory complicated handshake!

      42. Nerdy Library Clerk*

        Good riddance to Hell Boss! *throws confetti*

        Now, may you get a great job away from the Hellmouth, so that when it collapses into the inevitable black hole of madness you’re not sucked in.

        1. I Work on a Hellmouth*

          Thank you! And yeah, seriously… we’re about to be fire tagged again and a dimensional vortex of evil can’t be too far behind.

      43. NoLongerYoungButLotsWiser*

        Woo hoo! Sad, sad about the disappointment of LBU job not coming through…. but at least, the evil one is gone from the immediate sphere of influence!! Happy dance for you!

        1. I Work on a Hellmouth*

          And maybe a better job at LBU will come open soon–I really would have felt bad giving notice when I am literally the last person standing in the office, so I am choosing to believe that the universe is just working things out for the best right now.

      44. Batgirl*

        OH HAPPY DAY!

        Seriously you’ve given me hope. I have my own Queen of Darkness at my place of business (calling male students ‘baby girls’, female students ‘fishwives’ and telling them they are just as ‘stupid as they were in September’) and had to whistleblow. HRs first response has been discouragingly weak, and has outed me, even though they caught her in a very obvious lie. It’s not over yet but I had started to believe she is unconquerable. That only workplaces which are perfect could take her on. There are grown ups who have graduated from her evil regime. Why would anyone deal with her now?
        You have given me hope!

        1. I Work on a Hellmouth*

          That sounds terrible! I’m sending all of the Vanquishment Mojo that I can your way!

      45. Easily Amused*

        Hooray! I’m so happy for you and your sweet freedom! Now that she’s been dealt with and it seems like someone in the company is sane and reasonable (Foster Boss at least), can you talk to them about a bump in pay as you’re literally handling the entire property yourself? Might want to mention hazard pay for dealing with the squirrels and residents and pain and suffering pay for your entire experience there and… ok, maybe just mention the extra responsibility you are and have been handling?

        1. I Work on a Hellmouth*

          Alas, Foster Boss had to go back to her property (which is in another state and very far away). We are allegedly getting a new Foster Boss next week, but no one knows who they will be or even what day they will arrive. I don’t know if they’ll agree to a pay bump, although I have necessarily been cleared for overtime. Which is good, since I also need to work all of the Saturdays now, and also there is literally no way to do over 20 hours worth of work in an 8 hour day.

          1. Easily Amused*

            I hear you but no better time to ask for more moola than when you have leverage. Either way, just do what you can. Try not to burn yourself out propping up the whole establishment. Best of luck and I hope an amazing new opportunity comes your way. You’ve more than earned it!

      46. Red5*

        First, I’m so happy at this turn of events! What a load off your shoulders!

        But second, I can’t help but wonder…what if all the crazy stuff that happened that wasn’t from HellBoss (the lightning strikes, the snake in the office, the squirrels and scary residents) was actually the demons that run the Hellmouth trying to run HellBoss off? I can imagine the demons coming up to you to apologize. Like, “Sorry you had to put up with all of that; we were trying to get her to quit. But it wasn’t enough, and it took a Motherf*cker to do it.”

        Seriously, I’m imagining this Hollywood scene in my head, kinda like Sam Jackson in Pulp Fiction when he tells the robbers at the diner to give back his wallet: “It’s the one with Bad*ss Motherf*cker on it.” But you instead of Sam Jackson.

        Ok, all joking aside, I hope this makes the job more bearable until you find something better!

      47. Seeking Second Childhood*

        My Friday afternoon got crazy and I forgot to come check yesterday and wow what a delightful thing to read over this morning’s coffee.
        Time for some Gloria Gaynor!

      48. Likestosleepnaked*

        Motherf**ker I am absolutely thrilled for you! This is just the beginning of good karma coming your way!

        4. animaniactoo*

          I mean, so far, okay, sad about the rejection letter, but seriously hoping that hellboss termination means somebody at least *vaguely* reasonable is put in place. (And not you, cuz I know you don’t want it).

          And oh, that poor guy who thinks he’s starting in June – somebody’s going to have to handle that one way or the other. I hope you guys have his info and can contact him before he starts calling to find out why he hasn’t heard anything.

          1. I Work on a Hellmouth*

            Yeah, I talked about that with Foster Boss before she left to fly back to her state… I realized that I didn’t know if that guy even did official paperwork or anything. HR has been emailed to find out if they even know who he is.

    3. Zephy*

      first: booo, LBU :( oh well.

      second: YAY NO MORE HELLBOSS

      third: i am on the edge of my seat please continue

    4. merp*

      On the edge of my seat too. Sad news about the job but I hope something new comes around soon!

    6. ThatLibTech*

      You know the Tyler the Creator “Un-Follow Me Now, This Is Gonna Be the Only Thing I Tweet About For The Next Week.” meme?

      That is my right now because OMG! It happened! You’re free (of her)!!!!!

    9. Deranged Cubicle Owl*

      NICE!!

      Now please Allison, please hurry up so I can read the next installment of this thriller novel.

    10. Forrest Rhodes*

      So sorry about Big University, Hellmouth, but—ding, dong, the [fill in noun of choice] is dead! Or at least somewhere else. Am eagerly anticipating the rest of the story.

    11. Jules the 3rd*

      ooooo… Very sorry to hear about the rejection letter, and I hope you get a better answer soon.

      Woo Hoo! on the HellBoss defeat.

      You really should just take all these old posts and put them in a book.

    12. MechanicalPencil*

      I think I choked on my muffin when I read the hellboss got fired. Hallelujah flying spaghetti monster.

      Now I want pasta.

    13. Karen from Finance*

      Haven’t had a chance to read the whole thing yet, but I’m just here for the HELL BOSS IS GONE PARTY!!!!!

      Bring on the confetti.

      I’m sooooo happy for you!!!!!

        1. Seeking Second Childhood*

          I tried to find a GIF of Laurence Welk’s bubble machine to contribute. But I did find places that rent them, so my next birthday may need to be outside!

    15. Jean (just Jean)*

      HOORAH HOORAY SHE’S GONE AWAY!
      I am imagining a teeming horde of demons and other pitchfork-wielding, breathless characters boiling up onto the sidewalk after rushing up innumerable flights of stairs From Below. In other words, Hellboss’s presence “below, below below”was so unpleasant that Satan plus his many minions simply got up and ran!

      Karmapalooza is a great term. I may borrow it, if you don’t mind.

      In other news, razzberries to LBU for not recognizing your stellar skills and potential. Their loss is going to be someone else’s gain.

      Not to be too Debbie Downer but … + 1 re the other comments encouraging you to be careful/mindful of your personal safety. Maybe (if logistics and finances permit) you should spend a night or two away from home. Or park your car somewhere else. And/or ask HR for help explaining why the police might want to keep an eye out for your safety.

      Hopefully Hellboss’s future includes a long, steep, rocky road of penitence and self-correction…somewhere far away from you and everyone else upon whom she has visited unhappiness.

      1. I Work on a Hellmouth*

        Fortunately(?), she is way more likely to send me annoying things in the mail or invent a reason to sue me than to physically show up, and I’m kind of braced for it. I could hope that she’ll realize her role in all of this and maybe learn/grow/be less terrible (I mean, all she had to do was not lie, not break any company policies or, um, laws, and do her job), but since she has very firmly decided that she is a Victim Who Has Been Betrayed in spite of the fact that this is (at least, because there might be other instances that I don’t know about) the third time (in a row!) that she has been fired for shadiness and misdeeds, I don’t know how much hope there is for her. But she’s not dragging me down, or torturing anyone new who comes in here, so that’s a solid win.

  118. NotaPirate*

    Engineer/bioinformatics phd applying to jobs , i have a couple resume question s:

    1. Filed for masters on way to phd, conferred date is same as phd do I list them together?
    2. Do you leave off publication list when applying to industry? Google seemed mixed on it
    3. Phd was super time consuming and only organizations etc i have maintained involvement are church related, is it best to just leave those off? Committee involvement, Sunday school teaching etc.

    Thank you!!

    1. MicrobioChic*

      Hey! PhD student doing an industry internship!

      For publications, I’d do selected ones, and make sure it includes one where you aren’t first author because the head of the department I’m interning in says he’s interested in people willing to work as a team, so if you published as part of helping someone else with their project, that’s a good sign.

      He said that sometimes people just link their Google Scholar profiles as well.

      1. NotAPirate*

        Oh, that’s really good to know! I have several like that (only coder student for my advisor, ended up on a lot of random projects lol). I really wish I had done an industry internship, that seems very helpful. My advisor didn’t want me to spend a summer outside the lab though…. He really needs to get a couple more computer competent people in.

      2. None the Wiser*

        I found this a week out, so don’t know that you will ever see this, but this is how I handled pubs on an industry resume: I listed my different projects with “Resulting Publications,” and if I felt the position was too far in the past or not as relevant, had a line where I stated “Resulted in x publications in Journals A, B, and C; first author on y.”

    2. Engineer Girl*

      I’d include selected publications. Several companies are developing new technology so the ability to do research is a plus. Many companies have patent programs and a strong presence at conferences. They also welcome publishing.

      Sadly, I’d leave off the Sunday School teaching. I’ve seen people get weird about it. They can make strange assumptions, from “religious nutcase” to “bigot who will harass my LGBQT employees”. I had a good friend get discriminated from a job when HR found out he was an AWANA teacher. It didn’t matter that his current employer though he was one of the most stellar managers they’d ever seen (my friend was moving to another state).

    3. JobHunter*

      I kept my pubs on. Pro: the puns demonstrated where my experience came from and the size of projects I worked on. Con: the pubs showed how recent my experience was

      I left any non-professional affiliations off my CV. I do have three bullet points in a research interest section that describe 1) the area of research that I want to work in, 2) the approaches I am most proficient in, and 3) the outcomes I am most driven to achieve.

  119. AvonLady Barksdale*

    There’s been talk around here about adding a couple of tasks to my role, one of which I’m lukewarm about and one I’m outright (but quietly, for the moment) opposed to. There are three of us in this role, though one of us (not me) has a kind of dual position where he handles marketing efforts in addition to the decidedly non-marketing-based responsibilities that make up my role.

    The task I’m lukewarm about is sales. I have worked in sales adjacent roles all my life… because I don’t want to be in sales. People tell me I’d probably be good at it, and that may be the case, but I’m just not feeling it. I don’t enjoy the negotiation part, I don’t enjoy the account servicing element of it. I was great at retail sales because I am terrific with people, but the thing about retail sales is that those people leave. Any continuing relationships are, in most cases, a bonus and entirely customer-driven; they come in, I help them, they leave, they might come back and ask for me, but I never have to go out and ask them if they want to buy something. We’re supposed to start some serious sales training around here, and I’m working hard to hide my “meh.”

    The other task I find much worse. I was told we would be sharing the responsibility of monitoring our company’s new live chat feature on its website. This means that if a question comes in while I’m “on call,” I have to stop what I’m doing and address the question. I have no idea how many questions we’ll get a day or how involved those questions will be, but… wha? I work a somewhat high-level, analytical job, which means a couple of things: first, I have projects I need to concentrate on (and my work style is such that if I’m in a groove, I prefer to keep going as long as I can), second, people interrupt me constantly with questions about my projects (as they should), and third, my role is really flexible and I occasionally leave my desk to take a walk or go to an appointment or spend time in someone else’s office discussing projects. I brought this up to my partner and he asked why we don’t have an intern do this live chat business (answer: we don’t have interns). I also talked to a co-worker and she’s not that hot on it either.

    So in my position, what would you do? The sales stuff… eh, I don’t know how far it will even go and I’m considering just giving it some effort and seeing what happens. But this other task, I have no idea how to approach it. Maybe I should try that to, but I don’t know, it just feels kind of out of left field and inappropriate.

    2. Ama*

      I would feel pretty much the same as you about both of these things. And for the record, while I haven’t done live chat, I have worked in a role where I was simultaneously expected to function as a receptionist while doing high-level tasks requiring focus and it was a nightmare. I think it is valid for you and your coworkers to point out that you think the quality of your other work would suffer if you have to take the live chat on, but be prepared for them to blow you off — in my experience, people who have never done customer service type roles like that really don’t seem to get how disruptive and difficult it is to be constantly asked to switch tasks and have no control over interruptions.

      You will have to decide for yourself what you want to do, but if I were in your situation I would start looking so if you do have to take these roles on and hate them you can get out much faster.

      1. T. Boone Pickens*

        That live chat thing sounds like the stuff of my worst nightmares so I sympathize with you there.

        As for the sales training, I’d say give it a shot. It sounds like the company is paying for it and if nothing else, you might get a couple of new tools for your professional toolkit that may help you do your current (and future jobs) more effectively.

    3. Seeking Second Childhood*

      You mean live chat like call-center style? That’s not an efficient way for them to spend the salary of a high-level employee! I’m baffled…give us a followup another week would you?

  120. Anonymousaurus Rex*

    I’m moving from a high cost of living area to a low cost of living area, and I’m wondering how to cope with the mental block of taking a big pay cut when I find a new job in the new area. (I’m currently still negotiating with my company to see if I can stay and become remote, but it’s not looking likely). For those of you who have done this, how do you handle explaining to jobs what you’re looking for in terms of salary? How do you even know what to ask for?
    My job is rather niche, so I anticipate needing to take whatever I can get in my new location. It’s also not the type of job that glassdoor and similar sites are accurate for, if they even list salaries. So far I’m just plugging my current salary into a cost of living adjustment calculator, but I’m worried I will end up either high or low balling the salary. The calculator has me taking a 40% pay cut, but that seems very drastic to me!

    1. Rusty Shackelford*

      Mentally, you might try thinking about your salary in terms of the cost of a house. How much would a particular house cost in your current location? Does your current position pay one house per year? One-half of a house? Ten percent of a house? A house and a half? Price that same house in your new location, and see if the COL adjustment calculator gives you the same ratio of income/house. Obviously this is just a mind game, and the cost of other necessities doesn’t go up proportionately, but I find it useful when I see that someone in another state gets 2X what I do for doing a similar job. Oh, look, their house costs 4X what it would cost in my town. I win. XD

      1. Anonymousaurus Rex*

        The housing thing is especially what is tripping me up! I’m moving from southern California, where housing prices are currently astronomical. I’m paid a decent salary, and even still, I’m a renter. Luckily I have a pretty good deal renting and I’m paying way under the “average” housing cost for my sized apartment. I’m moving to the midwest where houses are huge and cheap. But even though my housing costs will go down (though not as much as the COL predictor says), other things like groceries will largely stay the same. And transportation costs will go up (as I currently bike everywhere). It’s very confusing!

    2. Kimmy Schmidt*

      Thinking in percentages might help.

      For example, utilities used to be 10% of my monthly paycheck, but now they’re only 5%. Groceries used to be 15%, but they’ve dropped to 7%. You can also play around with your expected new salary to see if those percentages still make sense when translated numerically. When I was job hunting I made an Excel spreadsheet that would calculate expected expenses based on salary. I had the formulas set up so that I could just change the salary number and watch everything else go up or down. This can help you get a ballpark for the lowest you’d be willing to accept.

    3. AnotherAlison*

      Can you find a public job proxy for your job and see what it would pay in your state and the other state? “City Engineer” in Los Angeles earns over $300,000 a year. I have a friend with that title in our 150,000 pop. midwestern suburb and she earns about $140,000.

    4. NACSACJACK*

      I would look at city-data and bestplaces.net to do comparisons and based my salary on those datapoints. That being said, I would also be pointing out or keeping in mind that you would still have the bills from your old location to pay until you readjust to your new location (credit card bills from charging dry-cleaning, dinners, take-out, car, possibly your prior residence).

    5. Anon-Today*

      I took a job making 1/3 less and moved from ExpensiveCity to Nowhereville. Before I accepted the job, I checked salary equivalencies online. I think I used salary.com and possibly glassdoor.com. I did negotiate to be hired at the top of the pay scale, but it was based on experience not previous salary.

      I’m currently looking for a new job, and going back to an expensive city frightens me. I’ve gotten used to my rental house, on a 1/4-acre lot, with an attached garage, 2 miles from work. It used to take me an hour to commute 10 miles to my old job, and I’d have to pay $12/day to park if I drove, and almost that much to use public transportation. Also, I paid twice as much in rent, and had a 1-bedroom+den and my outdoor space was just a balcony. (At least I had a balcony, though).

      Fortunately for my current job, the salary range was listed publicly. If you apply for a job in a government agency, the salaries of current employees would be visible in a lot of states. Even if you don’t, if you know what the local area pays its government employees for the same credentials, that would give you some idea.

  121. small fish small pond*

    How do you gracefully handle questions about a terrible colleague in a small industry?
    I’m in a role within this field that requires essentially an apprenticeship period. I’m about to finish up that training (and have a job lined up, yay!). There is a well-known person within the industry at the organization where I currently am, and during my job interviews, or at industry networking events, I was often asked if I know this person.
    I have met them, and they are extremely unpleasant to deal with – arrogant, condescending, and pretty bad at significant responsibilities of their job – but very good at some others, and a talented B.S. -er (for background, this person has negotiated a certain amount of independence which is why I don’t work with them too much, and my supervisors and mentors have expressed similar frustrations with this person and backed me up so I don’t think it’s just me). In addition the areas in which they’re weak are more with internal things that are not clearly visible if you’re not within the same organization.
    I’ve usually deflected or given a simple “yeah, we’ve crossed paths” with no details. Do I just keep this up indefinitely? Anyone have any scripts or tips for keeping things believably neutral and noncommittal?

    1. merp*

      I think a simple “we’ve met but don’t work together too often” would probably close off most follow up questions and sounds neutral. Unless the industry is so small that feels implausible.

    2. Lilysparrow*

      Merp’s script is good, but I have found it useful to try to get a sense of whether the other person has worked with Problem Colleague and if so, whether they are friends. In the past, I blew a couple of networking opportunities by being very transparent about my experience with Problem Colleague, which offended their friends. (Turned out that was a bullet dodged, as the PC and the new contacts were all horrible people).

      So I’d say something like, “Yes, we’ve met but we don’t really work together directly,” and add something like, “How about you? Have you worked with PC before?”

    3. My cat is my alarm clock*

      Even if this person sucks and they’re looking to commiserate, you’re not going to make yourself look bad by being circumspect and not gossiping. I would ask if there’s something in particular they want to know.

  122. CRR*

    I recently discovered that a new colleague, Cliff, has a significant conflict of interest. This person is also personal friends with our manager, which I believe is why he was fast-tracked for the job over other (better?) candidates. Another colleague, Woody, reported the conflict of interest to HR and was told it was not actually a conflict of interest. It is most definitely a conflict of interest.

    When Woody recounted to me their conversation with HR, it came across as personal rather than simply laying out the facts. (There may be some prior beef between Cliff and Woody that I am not aware of.) If I were to bring it up in a more fact-based manner, is that likely to matter? Or would HR automatically consider the matter closed since they closed it off with Woody? I don’t want to waste time and resources. But I’m also aghast that this is allowed to happen.

    1. Colette*

      It depends on what the conflict of issue is (i.e. being friends with the boss doesn’t put the company at risk; funneling orders to companies you own is more of an issue), as well as how certain you are about it.

      But if it’s an issue that the company should care about, report it even if it goes nowhere.

      1. CRR*

        The conflict has nothing to do with being friends with the boss. It is about running a side business that deals with our company and also at least one competitor.

        1. Not Me*

          Are you confident HR has all the correct and relevant information? If not, I would send them the information myself (in an email, so I can keep a record of it) and after that it’s on them. You’ve done your duty by reporting it, it’s no longer your issue.

          1. The New Wanderer*

            I would also do this – proceed as if you never heard anything from Woody. If you have evidence that it’s a conflict of interest, supply that. Cheers!

          2. Auntie Social*

            HR seems not to understand that the guy is working for a competitor. Who is the company president or CEO? I’d go there, especially if there are stockholders. Furnish as much proof as possible.

        2. Colette*

          Are you sure of the facts (i.e. you have found the information from somewhere on your own, you didn’t hear it from Woody)? If so, have you mentioned it to your manager? That’s where I would start.

  123. Observer*

    Insight and commiseration would be appreciated.

    I’m managing someone is a support role. I’ll call them Chris. Chris is nice, has a great work ethic and gets along well with a lot of the staff. They also seem to be quite sensitive about hierarchy and respect. The role requires working with people across the organization who I do not have any authority over.

    Chris is having a hard time with some of the people they need to work with. Some of it is legitimate rudeness that they are handling very poorly. In once case, the reaction was far more objectionable than the original rudeness, in fact. Not outrageous, but definitely inappropriate. In other cases, it looks to me like both parties are low level misbehaving – and I’m hearing complaints from both. Chris is coming to me for protection, staff is coming to me to say “Chris’ behavior is problematic because a, b and c”. In at least one case, I’m pretty confident that Chris is the key person reacting inappropriately. Again, not outrageous from what I can tell (I was not present for any of the interactions), but not great.

    I don’t have a problem talking to Chris about their behavior, but I need to not throw them under the bus when someone else is not behaving appropriately. And I need to find a way to deal with some of the attitude they are getting from some people.

    1. Colette*

      Have you made it clear to Chris that getting along with their colleagues is part of the job? Have you brought up specific scenarios?

      I think that the first step is to ask Chris what happened, and then talk about better ways to handle it (including escalating to you, if necessary). But the goal shouldn’t be protecting Chris or throwing Chris under the bus; it should be doing what’s best for the business. (And that should be Chris’s goal, too -it’s not about being right or wrong, it’s about getting the work done.)

      1. Observer*

        Yes, I have. And mostly, they respond appropriately to me when I’ve spoken to them. It’s from talking to them that I’ve come to the conclusion about their sensitivity.

        I agree that it’s a matter of what’s doing what’s best for the business, but there is no way it’s ok for people to be rude to them. And, I do want them to come to me if they have a real problem. I also don’t want to litigate each encounter. So, I think part of what I’m looking for is a way to say “It’s not ok for people to be rude to you, but you’re going to have to deal with some people being attitudy. Kick it up to me only when it crosses the line from rude to NOT office appropriate.” and helping them to calibrate. And part is how do I get people who I don’t manage to back off a bit, even when they think Chris is wrong.

        1. Colette*

          Oh, I agree that rudeness is not OK, but it sounds to me like Chris is looking for reasons to be offended. It might be good to set a list of “reasons to come to me about the issue”:
          – sexist, racist, homophobic, etc. slurs or insults
          – colleague refuses to work with Chris

          If none of those apply, Chris is expected to be polite and productive and assume the best in their dealings with other employees.

          One technique that I use is to ask (friendly!) questions. I.e. instead of “no, that’s not what we’re going to do”, ask “Oh, did I misunderstand? I thought we’d agreed that X”

    2. LaDeeDa*

      In the last year my biggest request from employees is how to manage without authority, and I think from what you described that is part of Chris’ problems/frustration. I would attack it by acknowledging the fact that they are in a position of influence, not authority, and provide development opportunities around how to influence and connect with people. You might consider investing in some communication style assessments such as DISC, Tracom, or Insights Discovery to help Chris become more self-aware of their style and blind spots. You can also coach Chris to accept that most people have good intentions and to identify the common goal . These other organizations have their own goals- but together you need to identify and communicate how their goals lead to the common goal.
      Influence boils down to a few key points:
      1. Identify what they want– you know what you want, what do they want.
      2. Reciprocity. This is based on the idea of “matching” what others have done for you. “I need your help/information with X, and I can provide you with Y.”
      3. Commitment- I will do what do what I said I would do.

      1. Observer*

        1. Identify what they want– you know what you want, what do they want.

        So this seems to be part of the problem. Their assumption seems to be that the other person needs their help (which is generally true) and that the other person wants to show superiority or just complain (based on what they have said to me) which I don’t believe is an accurate reading of the situation. In any case, they need to do what’s being asked even if they believe the other person is being disrespectful.

        2. Reciprocity. This is based on the idea of “matching” what others have done for you. “I need your help/information with X, and I can provide you with Y.”

        Sounds simple, doesn’t it. This seems to be a really sticking point – they don’t seem to see that, and from what I can see either the other parties don’t see it that way or it’s not really as relevant as one would expect.


        3. Commitment- I will do what do what I said I would do.

        Best as I can tell, that’s totally not a problem – they do seem to have pretty good follow through.

  124. LaDeeDa*

    I have been waiting for this all week! Hi everyone!
    My team and I all work nearly 100% remotely. We go into whatever location as needed, for me it is about 1-2 times a month, for some of my employees, it is never, for some it is more frequent. We are all in different states, countries, time zones.
    In January my leader transferred one of her direct reports to report me. I know she did this because she doesn’t like him, she is confrontation adverse, and she doesn’t want to deal with him. He was months behind on a couple of projects, but she wasn’t dealing with it. So in January, I met with him, we redefined his goals, deliverables, and deadlines. He has not many any of them.
    So while I am dealing with all the missed deliverables and deadlines, I am pretty sure he has taken another job that he is working during his normal business hours. I think when he reported to my leader it was easy for him to hide it because due to their different locations he was 3 hours ahead of her so it would be lunchtime by the time she started work, then an hour for lunch, etc, it would be easy for her not to notice his delayed responses, but he is only 1 hour ahead of me. I notice he isn’t online or responsive, or only answering me after normal business hours.
    I don’t think there is any way I can prove he is working a job at the same time he is working this one, so my only recourse is to deal with his lack of performance. He is in a country outside the US, so I am reaching out to his HRBP to better understand the rules/policies/laws for that country, but he is going to go on a PIP soon, I just need to make sure I am doing it correctly for that country.
    Just wanted to share my current state of managing a global remote team!! Anyone dealt with anything similar?

    1. Notthemomma*

      If you have company issued devices he would normally use, could IT install a keylogger to monitor activity? Not specifically every keystroke, but use of the mouse, keyboard, what applications are open, how long, etc? Then you would have documentation that ‘over the past 4 weeks, you logged in but only moved the mouse 12 times and didn’t move rom the initial portal for 3 hours. Also, a chat program which shows when one is available?

    2. Auntie Social*

      Can you online research him, even hire an investigator (they’re not expensive these days) to find out where the other job is? Once you know where it is, you could meet him there one day.

    3. Seven hobbits are highly effective, people*

      I wouldn’t try to specifically prove the other job, particularly since he is not in your location so it would be difficult for you to “catch him in the act”. Instead, make part of the PIP about responsiveness to certain kinds of requests/tasks/questions/etc. that make sense for the role, and measure that. Since he’s also missing a ton of deadlines, expecting regular, timely responses to frequent check-ins seems like a completely reasonable intervention to be trying. If he regularly misses those, it doesn’t really matter if it’s because he’s working another job or really into playing Minecraft with his buddies during those hours, it matters that he’s not doing his work as clearly assigned.

      The goal here isn’t to prove exactly what he’s doing instead of working, but to get him to either turn it around or to no longer be working there.

  125. Tigger*

    I flew back home for my sisters graduation and made the mistake of checking my work email. Now I am overwhelmed and feeling guilty that I’m not at work. One day I would be able to enjoy time off

  126. Achoo!*

    My company has a small foundation whose function is basically to give small grants to local charities based on XYZ criteria. It has an unpaid board that is elected and no employees. I’m the main person who compiles the paperwork, does background research, revises materials – anything and everything other than the accounting and the actual decision on who gets the grants. I’m not looking to be made also an employee of the foundation – but would it be out of line to ask for a title that recognizes the work I put into the foundation on top of my regular job duties?

  127. MonkeyInTheMiddle*

    How do you know when a job isn’t a good fit or when to move on? I have one that is challenging, but maybe a bit out of my comfort zone, but maybe it’s a bad fit culturally?

    1. The Man, Becky Lynch*

      How long have you been there? If you’re generally awkward and take time to warm up, I would give yourself time to acclimate to the setup! Otherwise if you’ve been there a long time [a couple, three years] and you’re feeling uncomfortable, can you drill down on that and know what makes you uncomfortable?

      Is it a person or is it how they do things there? If you don’t like the fact they haul you away from your desk to have social time or they never have social time and you would prefer to you know, speak with your coworkesrs and they all hide under their headphones and doors are closed, etc. They expect you to work horrible hours, while you would rather have your 40hrs and go home or you want to work on things longer and they just have a “this is good enough, it will do” mentality.

      It’s all about being the opposite of what you enjoy and work well within! But if it’s just the new nerves kind of thing, you may be rushing yourself to that decision.

      1. MonkeyInTheMiddle*

        Been here about 2.5 yrs, I know I am not the most social, but definitely middle management which does a lot of the scut work without the recognition. And I advocate hard for my team. I think I have issues with lack of management support or I don’t believe in the senior management

  128. Kendra*

    It’s bike to work day! I live on the Seattle Eastside, and there’s before/after work parties at parks and on my company’s campus, as well as fun info booths along some of the major bike trails. Anyone else bike commute?

  129. CleanUpYourOwnPlate*

    After noticing that nearly all the females in the office do all the party-planning/general office work in the office and my male coworkers never contribute, I brought it up to my female supervisor. I was really hesitant to do so (bringing up issues of workplace sexism seems to go badly for most people,) but I was tired of serving the men.

    I’m happy to report that my supervisor said, “Thank you so much for bringing this up.” Apparently, she has noticed it too and felt she needed to hear it from another employee before she felt comfortable taking it to our overall supervisor.I’m hoping this will mean change. Either way, I think it goes to show that the things that are bothering you are probably bothering others, but you have to speak up if you want things to change.

  130. DarthVelma*

    Today is my evil boss’ last day. She was “working from home” for the first part of her notice peri0d, but has been “running out leave” for the last couple of weeks. (We aren’t sure, but everyone thinks she was forced to run out leave when her boss figured out she wasn’t actually doing any work from home.)

    Anyway, she’s not allowed to come into our office space to do the last day close out stuff. Just HR and her boss’ office.

    You can see the stress visibly lifting off of everyone. It’s glorious.

    The moral of this story is to document and convey your concerns up the chain. Even if it takes a lot longer than it should, you can build up enough of a case that the bad person goes away. Yay! :-)

    1. Buu*

      Congratulations on your victory. Sometimes the worst part of a bad boss, is the fact no one will deal with them. Even if it took some time, yours did. I hope you enjoy your evil boss free workplace.

  131. Plain Jane*

    Hi everyone, I’m about 6-7 weeks into a new job as an Office Manager. I’m replacing the Office Manager who’s retiring in 2 months, a Mrs. Landringham type who’s been here forever and likes to be kept in the loop on absolutely anything and everything.

    I’m picking up on things well and people are coming directly to me with requests. When I tell her that someone asked for this and that and I completed it, she wants me to run through everything like I’m asking her how to do it.

    Made up Example: Sue needed a ride to the office from the airport and she’s now in Conference Room C.

    Coworker: Where did you look for the car keys?

    Me: oh, I found the keys; she’s been picked up.

    Coworker: The keys are kept in Closet A. Did you check the log to see where the car is parked?

    Me: I did. The pickup is all done so I was able to do the steps correctly.

    Coworker: You always want to start with looking for the keys in Closet A…

    Any tips for dealing? Not informing her isn’t an option.

    1. LCL*

      Keep smiling, it’s only 8 more weeks. Almost 4 months is a long time to spend training an office manager, perhaps she was the one who wanted such a long time to train her replacement. If you are lucky she may be able to see retirement as she gets closer and spend less time in the office.

    2. NotMyRealName*

      My first choice for surviving a short term crazy making thing is a Bingo card. It somehow makes it less annoying and more silly.

    3. Expand All Threaded Comments*

      It sounds like coworker is looking for emphatic reassurance.

      Start your answers with “Correct. Agreed. Using your method. As per protocol., etc” with a slightly triumphant tone. Turn an interrogation into an agreement and back patting party.

      “Where did you look for the car keys?”
      “As per your instructions, keys were obtained!”
      Did you check the log?
      “Correct – car was located successfully!”
      “You always want to start with looking for the keys”
      “Exactly what we did. We are totally on the same page!”

      Think Target Lady. “Success!” Just be sure you are positive in a way that does not read as sarcastic.

    4. Lilysparrow*

      I’d act like she couldn’t hear me correctly, and gently interrupt her.

      “No, no, Betty, she’s already here. It’s done. She’s in Conference Room C. Just letting you know.”

      And then smile brightly, walk away and get back to work. That level of hyper-control is ridiculous, and a total waste of time.

      She’s not going to like it, because the entire purpose of these little scenes is to Put You In Your Place and assert that she is Utterly Indispensable, and the second she leaves everything will go to Hell in a Handbasket.

      You don’t have to stand there and play along. I’m sure she has friends who will be more than happy to hear the canned speech.

      Just be cheerful and pleasant when you do it.

      1. valentine*

        Yes! Maybe a list of everything you did the previous day, so she doesn’t keep you late with her nonsense. And can you not tell your manager that you’re spinning your wheels like this, if it’s Landringham who demands these reports? (Especially if she demands them upon completion. How infantilizing.)

  132. Bee's Knees*

    I am very unsupervised today. Of the 10 staff members I have regular contact with, 8 of them are out today for one reason or another. I told my boss, who’s also out, that there was no telling what kind of trouble I would get into. Since the only example I could come up with off the top of my head was locking myself in my office and eating an entire cake without sharing, I don’t think he was too worried.

    1. Emily S.*

      Happy Friday!

      I love the mental picture of you, sitting at a desk, stuffing cake in your mouth like Tina Fey. Glorious.

      1. Bee's Knees*

        I didn’t actually. Should have. I like to think I’m the Leslie Knope of my office, but I’m probably more Liz Lemon.

  133. Aleya*

    I went to my sister’s graduation last week and there was a speaker who is involved in local politics. I haven’t chosen a major yet and have considered political science, so I went and talked to the lady. She offered to give me a tour around the state legislature! I was super excited to see how things worked on a day-to-day basis, but I had a bad depressive episode this week and haven’t emailed her. Now I feel like I’ve missed the opportunity. (She said the session was ending soon, so I needed to get back to her ASAP.) I want to try to send her an email to at least thank her and touch base, and maybe see if I can visit next session or just get a tour of the city government now.

    I was just going to say I was very sick over the past week (which is true, my depression was unusually bad), but I don’t know what else to say.

    1. Rainy days*

      There’s no harm in sending a polite email saying you were sick and asking to take her up on her offer. The worst case scenario is that she won’t reply.

      And if she doesn’t reply–don’t blame yourself. The reality is that plenty of people make offers like this and then don’t follow up on them when asked.

        1. OneFootOutTheDoor*

          “Hi (or Dear) [person],

          This is Aleya, the aspiring political science major you met at [university] graduation. When we talked, you mentioned that you might be able to show me around the state legislature. Unfortunately, I was sick all last week and wasn’t able to follow up with you until now. I know that the timeframe is such that I may have missed my chance this session, but I’m still very interested in your tour if it’s still a possibility. And if not, would it be possible for me to stop by your office at some point soon to ask you some questions? Either way, I’m still very interested in political science, and I was excited and grateful for your encouragement.

          Best,

          Aleya

          That’s what I’d write, anyway, but adapt it to your own voice.

    2. Rusty Shackelford*

      It was great meeting you at graduation, I regret that an illness prevented me from taking you up on your generous offer to tour the state legislature, if it’s possible to do that at a future session or to get a tour of city government instead I would love the opportunity, and if not, thank you for your time.

    3. Lucette Kensack*

      Has the session ended? (Do you know why that’s relevant to her availability? Like — is she from a different part of the state and won’t be in the capital after session ends? Or is it just that she/you wanted to do a tour while the legislature was in session?)

      One-ish week before reaching out is really not a big deal. I wouldn’t offer an explanation, just say: “Hi Contact! We met after your commencement speech at Big University last week. I was hoping to take you up on your offer of a tour of the state capital. I know session [just ended/is wrapping up soon/etc.], so it might be tough to schedule, but I’m available [list your availability, and make it as open as possible — don’t say “Next Tuesday after 3 p.m.]. If you’re still open to it, I’d love to find a time!”

    4. Alice*

      Just tell her you were sick (which is true). Check if the session is already over, and if it is, or if it’s close, ask about arranging a tour in the next session. Have fun!

      1. Aleya*

        I’m not really sure. She told me the session would be ending in three weeks, but when I looked it up, it said it wouldn’t end until mid-June. I don’t know if she made a mistake or if there’s some reason she’d be gone.

        Hows this:
        Hi Contact!
        We met after your speech at the ____ graduation ceremony last week. I was hoping to take you up on your offer of a tour of the state legislature. I know session is wrapping up soon, but I wanted to ask if it was still possible for me to visit. If you’re still open to it, I’d love to find a time! If not, I do want to thank you for your generous offer, and I hope that I could visit at a future session or to get a tour of a more local government office instead.
        Thanks,
        Aleya

        I feel I need to say something about being sick because she did tell me I needed to get back to her soon, but if you guys think it’s okay to leave it out, I would prefer that.

        1. Aleya*

          Also, is it appropriate to call her by her first name only? (I don’t know her official title or marital status.)

          1. Alice*

            About the names — if she were an elected official, I’d use the title. But it sounds like you’d know that if it were the case! So first name sounds fine to me — she is thinking of you as a fellow professional, I bet, not a child or student.
            This is a week late? That’s hardly late at all. If it were a couple months, I’d mention your illness. But for a week, I don’t think you even need to address the small delay.
            Your sentence “I wanted to ask if it was still possible” and the next sentence “if you’re still open to it” — I think this is too conditional. I might write something like “I know session is wrapping up soon, and I’d love to visit — during this session, or otherwise we can plan something for next session in ____.” But I know some people on this site take a more tentative approach to writing. Up to you of course.

        2. Lucette Kensack*

          I think your language is great! No need to mention being sick. I also don’t think that you need to include the “If not…” sentence. (If she replies that she can’t do a tour now, you can follow up with a request to schedule something in the next session.)

          If she’s an elected official, you should use her title. (Representative Torres, Mayor Carter, etc.) You should google her to try to find out what her position is. If you can’t track it down, I’d go with “Ms. Ellison” rather than using her first name.

    5. reformed anxious emailer*

      I feel this very much. It took me until after I graduated to realize that “it’s better late than never” applies to this kind of thing–especially when it’s only a week! Writing professional emails used to stress me out a lot, so here is some sample text in case it helps you get that email out:

      Dear so-and-so,

      Thank you again for taking the time to speak with me after the [x] graduation last week! I really appreciated getting to hear about [something you talked about]. [You can put a sentence here about what draws you to studying poli sci.]

      During our conversation you mentioned the possibility that you could show me around the state legislature. I’ve been ill over the last week and so didn’t follow up as quickly as I’d planned, but I hope that it would still be possible to see you for a tour. Is there a time that would be convenient for us to meet before the end fo the session?

      Best wishes,
      [you]

  134. BlueDijon*

    I need a little advice about how to deal (or not) with a co-worker consistently dropping the ball. She’s a family friend of our boss, but she (and all of us) report directly to the second-in-charge, not directly to our boss. We’re all overworked, so I’m very sympathetic, but it seems that she’s also not prioritizing very well and tends to spend a lot of her time trying to figure out better ways of doing things rather than actually doing anything. This wouldn’t matter, except she’s dropping the ball on a lot of stuff, and people are coming to me instead. I keep asking her if she needs help, but she keeps saying she’s fine – thus far I haven’t brought it up with the second-in-charge, but am wondering if me just putting up with it is doing more harm than good.

    Anyone else have any similar experiences, or suggestions?

    1. Auntie Social*

      I don’t think you get to improve on the existing system until you can do the current system in your sleep, which she can’t do. Plus–no one asked her to invent a new filing system. When people come to you, keep a list of what all you’ve done that’s actually Sue’s job. If you have any idea of what she does with her time, tell your boss that too. Ask if you can walk people back to Sue to interrupt her and do what is needed—you’re not trying to step on anyone’s toes, but you can’t keep doing more and more of her stuff and yours too. Putting up with it just tells Sue it’s okay to reinvent procedures and ignore the work on her desk—say something!! OTOH, maybe your boss wants you to direct people to him so he knows how often this happens and if she’s ignoring any particular department/people.

    2. ..Kat..*

      When people come to you because she dropped the ball, start directing them to second-in-charge.

  135. Me--Blargh!*

    Still nothing; no responses, etc.

    I’m seriously contemplating just selling up and moving to LargerCity, but I would have to stay with my mum. For reasons, this is problematic. I talked to my bro about it and he agreed with the problematic dynamics and that it would be difficult and potentially toxic to my mental health. I feel like I could handle it if I only had a job there and knew it would be temporary, but the idea of getting stuck with no idea of when I could get away ramps my anxiety up to puking levels. Or if I moved and then STILL couldn’t find a job (or just a low-income one), I would be stuck there instead of stuck here, living out of a suitcase in my mother’s basement.

    I’d really like to move to a better state, as mine has jumped on the bandwagon of enacting a more restrictive environment through legislation (you know what I mean) but I can’t seem to find anything I can reasonably do that pays enough for me to live. I am picky about where I go; I really don’t want to move to an even more restrictive state–and they seem to have worse economies overall, or will, with boycotts, etc. I can’t sell out for enough money to go somewhere good and live while I find a job. It’s the worst kind of catch-22.

    I’m racking my brains to come up with a solution, but the stress seem to have shut down my capacity to even think. I really feel like I need to do something fast before things get worse but I have no idea what!

    1. Jules the 3rd*

      Good luck, it’s hard to have limited options. I hope Captain Marvel was good for you (I liked it)…

      I wouldn’t focus much on the political restrictions / not moving to a place bcs of them, the strategy behind them is national. CA, WA, NY and a few Northeastern states will buck the trend, but there’s similar bills pending in most states. The states that will resist are expensive to live in.

      My perception, from the purple state of NC, is that the rural / urban divide is the main one, and that paying attention to it can get you into a less restrictive bubble. Aim for a medium sized or larger city / area – in NC, someplace like the Triad (Greensboro / Winston Salem / High Point) has a lot of jobs, but is small enough that it isn’t seeing the same cost of living hikes that Charlotte and the Triangle (Raleigh / Durham / Chapel Hill) and Atlanta have had over the last decade. Tampa or Jacksonville in FL are also warm job markets where COL hasn’t skyrocketed yet.

      One possibility – part time job at a chain? A chain with stores in areas that are of interest to you? It might be easier to move if you had a small income coming in and a guaranteed cushion of small income in a new place. I’m thinking grocery or department stores, or mid-level restaurants like Applebees.

      1. Me--Blargh!*

        1. I live in a medium-sized city and I want a bigger one. There is nothing here.
        2. The part time jobs want full time availability, plus there is the cash handling aspect. I have tried for some kitchen jobs, but I’m getting nowhere with them.

    2. Bismuth*

      I wish I could offer something more than commiseration! They say the economy is good, but it seems to be all service jobs that are open.

      I will say that while I’m with you on not wanting to go to certain states, I lived in one for several years and it was….nice. Lots of good to say about it. Not at all what you’d expect from the way people talk about it. Cities and university towns, even in the reddest of states, tend to be OK. Of course you shouldn’t make that kind of move if you won’t be comfortable, but if you see something great and don’t want to apply because of the state it’s in, maybe check a bit into the town it’s in too.

      1. Me--Blargh!*

        Yeah, I know! It’s awful when the jobs aren’t of any quality. They don’t pay enough to live on, and if you can’t do all the work (i.e. cash handling), they’ll just fire you and hire someone who can. Retail and food have the worst managers in any place I’ve ever worked.

        I already live in that exact kind of place. I. Want. Out.

    3. Trixie*

      This is very much a doable solution. Due to various circumstances, I have had to live my mother a couple times during transitions and for extended lengths of time. I needed a local address in the area but did not have resources to live on my own. I secured a position just to get some income while working on more serious long-term employment options. It was very difficult at times but ultimately I had income, saved money, and found better employment. Scheduled ample time away from house so I had my personal time. For my situation, I knew my employment prospects were not going to change unless I came up with a different plan/approach. But you are right about the worst kind of catch-22.

    4. Anono-me*

      I know you’ve never mentioned an interest, but could you do some sort of housekeeper / nanny / health aide/other job that is live in work?

      If you could find a job that was a live-in position in one of the big cities that you want to move to, that might give you the breathing space to decide if you liked the city for sure and allow you to job search while you were there.

      Amusing PS: A friend of a friend worked as a nanny to a gazillionaire and got the job because she could drive a boat and the child was fanatical about water skiing. Maybe you could find a family with a child who’s really into ice skating. Also apparently nannies for the super rich get paid really really well.

      1. valentine*

        Maybe you could find a family with a child who’s really into ice skating.
        Can you give lessons?

  136. Aleya*

    Anyone have suggestions for mastering excel or other common computer programs at home for free? I watched some tutorials on Youtube, but I’m the kind of person who needs to practice what I’ve learned to make it stick. I made a simple spreadsheet comparing prices of art supplies, but I need a more detailed project that can mimic normal office work. My goal is to apply to jobs that require “high proficiency” with excel/Microsoft office, whatever that means. Any ideas for sources of instruction and/or projects I could work on?

    (Sorry for the double post, but since it’s a very different topic, I figured it’d be okay.)

    1. TurkeyLurkey*

      Does your local library offer technology instruction? The one near me offers excel classes from beginning to advanced and you can schedule 1:1s with the technology librarians if there’s a specific skill you want to learn.

      1. Alice*

        Your local library might also have a subscription to Lynda . com with video tutorials about software.

    2. Not an excel champ, but...*

      For Excel, download free data sets from the internet and think about the kinds of questions a business owner might ask, then practice answering them with the data available. Imagine that you are opening a new branch of an art supplies franchise (for example). Based on the available data about sales at other locations and data about the demographics of your target market, decide which supplies to stock and how much shelf space to allocate to each supply. Create graphics that support your reasoning.

      1. Aleya*

        That sounds like a good project, but I have no experience with office or sales work at all. I’ve been a cashier and a shelf stocker; that’s it. I don’t have the faintest idea of what that information would look like or how it would be arranged in excel. How does that break down into actual numbers on a page?

        1. Federal Middle Manager*

          That’s part of the challenge ;-) Thinking about how to organize data is one of the biggest parts of mastering EXCEL. What is important to include? What order makes sense (by date? by price? by quantity?)?

          If you don’t have sales experience, use something else. Use local real estate listings to make a chart of average apartment prices by zip code and square footage. Use census data to figure out how many people under 18 would attend a hypothetical town of 10,000 people in your state.

    3. Kimmy Schmidt*

      Have you looked at any free online courses, such as Coursera or Khan Academy? They usually give real world examples AND homework problems that you can play around with and ask questions where you get stuck.

    4. philosophical_conversation*

      Excel Easy is an great website, tons of examples and really goes through lots of examples to learn excel!

    5. LQ*

      I recommend thinking about things that you can do that would be useful to you but also good for learning. Budget is the easy/obvious one to me. Creating a budget, but also you may be able to go into your bank account and extract a bunch of old statements in csv or xls format and then you can start to go through and think about what kinds of questions would come up about that. Make a projected budget based on actual history (rather than what you think you can afford).

      I’ve used excel spreadsheets for nerdy pursuits which has been weirdly helpful for business things. (Nerd stuff that plays with numbers, like video games or rpg stuff is really made for this. I’ve heard folks have equal success with baseball.) You could use it to do cataloging of all the movies/books you own, food in your home and the burn down rate of that, household projects with data like cost, estimated project length, required people, number of consecutive hours (vs like painting might be 2 hours then wait 2 days then 2 hours).

      This way can be dragons, but if you have someone in your life in an MLM you can do some really wicked spreadsheet work and prove that it is impossible for them to make money and that they aren’t. But again, dragons.

      Today at work I have updated my budget spreadsheet. Created a mail merge using a spreadsheet. Sorted my way through about a thousand fields of data (from a real database, just the field names).

      1. Expand All Threaded Comments*

        If you are creating a budget, think about not only listing your spend items, but what categories they fall into (food, rent, entertainment, clothing, books, transportation, etc), and also what vendors you made the purchases from.

        Then, create pivot tables that showing the monthly/yearly amounts you spend on each category, at each vendor, how much of the spend is revolving (rent, car payments, student loans). If you do a lot of mail order, maybe track the s&h you pay to see what that yearly total is. Create pie charts showing the percentages of your total spend.

    7. Even Steven*

      If you are working in Office 2016, check out the first page you get when you open Excel. Instead of picking ‘new blank workbook’, pick the “Take a Tour/Welcome to Excel” box. You will get a wonderful interactive tutorial that you can save to your desktop, and work you way through. Office Help online has more complex training modules as well. It can be a fun trip down the rabbit hole!

      If you want more advanced stuff, like pivot tables, vlookups, index match & dashboarding, have a look at the Excel courses on Coursera from PwC (Price WaterhouseCoopers). I took a 5-course data analysis cert of their courses there, but you could take just the ones you want.

    1. Person from the Resume*

      Abby should stop answering any workplace questions and just forward them to Alison. She referenced a “hostile work environment” in a letter last week that perpetuates the incorrect layman’s definition of those words.

      The use of “right” is an oddity of the LW. What are his options? I do think she did get it somewhat correct. LW can ask to not work with the same shift convicted criminal, the LW can tell his company that he will quit if forced to work with the convicted criminal, and follow through if his requests are not met.

      While the LW has my sympathy, people released from jail (presumably served their time) need jobs too. I don’t think they should be prevented from holding any job. OTOH the LW doesn’t have to work with him, but he might have to quit to make that happen.

      1. Hey Karma, Over here.*

        Abby absolutely needs to stop with the work questions. It’s ridiculous. The most glaring is her perpetuating the false “hostile work environment” followed by “talk to to HR.”

  138. TurkeyLurkey*

    Work is considering expanding the kinds of positions that have a work from home option a few days a week. (yay!) We’re in a client-services type department and looking for ways to measure performance/engagement when people are remote. We’ve got a strong team now, but want to make sure that we can catch potential issues early. The problem is, a lot of the metrics that come to mind are out of line with the autonomy we have in the office. Response time to a messages come up, but if someone’s on a call with a customer, I don’t expect them to be watching Slack or email.

    For folks that work from home or manage people who do, what are good leading indicators if people are off track? Are there bad policies that you’ve run across?

  139. Justin*

    Hi folks.

    My job is basically a consultancy (within education), where we work, essentially, with one government client on various projects. There are no other clients, but various subdivisions of the agency.

    Folks, this gov’t agency is very, very hard to respect. They’re mostly incompetent – not the workers, actually, but the middle managers – and our job is not just to support them but, because they can be very petty, to impress them based on their whims.

    How do you all, if you have no choice of clients, motivate yourself to do your best work for a client you don’t respect? Again, the workers are fine, the midlevel managers are petty tyrants with little understanding of what we do (and seem to resent our presence), while the top directors are very sharp, yet it’s those in the middle we usually have to impress.

    I’m looking around for a job that suits my goals, anyway, but any change is far, far off.

  140. TurkeyLurkey*

    Whoops–this doesn’t cover “at home,” but I hope “free” is still helpful :)

  141. Vertigo*

    So a week or two ago I asked how normal businesses handle categorizing company card expenses, and learned that 1) most companies are able to send the individual card statements to the employees with those cards, 2) the employee codes that shit themselves, and 3) most companies use software for this instead of manually entering people’s charges into a Google Doc and begging them to explain. (I should note that I work for a small company which probably has MANY more charges than average, and I’m reconciling for everything, not just travel and reimbursable charges).

    This week, my question is: what are the consequences for people who just…don’t do their expense reports? Our cards are autopaid each month – does that work differently for other businesses? This question really should be out of my pay grade, but my boss is a doormat and has whined to me that he just doesn’t know how to discipline for this [I shoudl also note that the problem people are in another office that doesn’t actually have a manager]. Obviously I should just let it go because if I can’t do my job because of others, that’s not my fault, but at the same time, I hate facing the same obstacles over and over again. I would love to introduce something like Expensify, but the problem is I know that if the problem people can’t fill out a damn sheet with words, they’re not going to bother to learn a new program and code things themselves.

    (I have been trying to leave this job for a long time. I have been depressingly unsuccessful.)

    1. Olive Hornby*

      We have the system you describe above (employees code own expenses and submit reports using software, or have their assistants do this on their behalf), but the cards are only paid if the expense report is submitted and approved. If that doesn’t happen and a late fee/interest gets charged, that becomes the employee’s responsibility unless there’s some extenuating circumstance (this used to happen when supervisors were on vacation, but now the system can skip/replace approvers if this is the case.) I don’t know what would happen if an employee simply decided not to ever fill out their expense reports, but I imagine it would involve a warning/PIP/firing if not resolved quickly, and/or loss of company card.

      1. Vertigo*

        So each card gets individually paid off, and late fees/interest affect the employee?

        Seems like we’re on a crappier card system – the individual cards are tied to one master card, so it’s just autopaid.

        Sadly, there is no way the worst offender would get fired because he is a co-founder of the company, and apparently taking responsibility for your own transactions is just too much for the Power That Is to implement, (he legitimately thinks having “rogue transactions” is an inevitability that’s my responsibility to suss out), but thanks for clarifying on how it SHOULD be

        1. Olive Hornby*

          Yes, exactly–they get charged to the company card (as with any other credit card), but the employee is expected to code them as “late fees” and reimburse the company by check, just as they would if, say, they accidentally charged a personal expense to their corporate card. The system we use is Concur, which I think is pretty common.

    2. Vimes*

      At the place I work basically if you do anything like don’t do submit your statement, don’t have a receipt (and have no excuse as to why) or don’t have anything attached to those receipts authorizing payments over a certain cost threshold then you are a) personally responsible for paying the money back to the company, b) you no longer have a card and c) you can also be fired.

      Those sound tough but a couple years ago it was discovered a bunch of people hadn’t submitted statements over long periods of time, like 10+ months consecutive missing. How no one noticed I really don’t know but that’s a different kettle of fish. Then the penalties went up and I haven’t heard of as many issues but that’s also not my department so I can’t speak to if they are actually effective.

    3. MissDisplaced*

      Oh my!
      Yes, submitting expense reports in a timely manner absolutely NEEDS to be reinforced. Working for a small company is not a valid excuse not to do this. If you adopt a tool (I use Concur) this must become policy or else face severe consequences. A lot of these tools work from a mobile APP now, so it is not asking for anything truly difficult.

    4. Ama*

      I agree with everyone else that in my office, if you don’t submit an expense report, your individual bill doesn’t get paid on time and you incur late fees. Here the late charges come out of your department’s budget (which, if you are a low or mid level employee, gives your department director incentive to keep an eye on you), and repeat offenders are warned that they run the risk of losing their corporate card if they incur too many late fees. Because I used to have a role similar to yours I’m pretty diligent about getting my expenses in on time so I’m not entirely sure if they’ve ever actually had to take someone’s card away or if there were intermediate steps.

      We actually are expected to code things ourselves, the finance department just double checks our coding against our budgets. We do occasionally have reminders in our staff meetings of how the credit card/accounts payable process works, especially if we’ve had a number of new hires, which I think helps.

    5. NACSACJACK*

      I am ultimately responsible for the debt. If I dont submit the expenses and get the card paid off in 60 days, I am responsible for late fees and interest charges. Also, if I dont do the above, I can be terminated. Almost happened to me last year and let me tell you, trying to pay the remainder of the bill containing the late fees and interest from my bank without sending a check was darn near impossible!

    6. A Bag of Jedi Mind Tricks*

      at my work, the employee is responsible for paying his/her corporate card bill and paying it on time. We (the admins) explain this to them when they first start. we have an expense report system and the charges show up in it, but we don’t process their expenses until they hand us their receipts (easier said than done–I’m still waiting on receipts for an employee who took a trip in January!). so there are delays in processing which means delays in getting reimbursed. A lot of them won’t pay their bill until they get reimbursed. so a lot of them rack up late fees. And then they get a warning that they must pay the bill and any late fees and if they don’t, the card will be taken away from them.

    7. Hey Karma, Over here.*

      RE item 2…Do the codes, er um, SUBMIT themselves? Cuz I’m really curious. I thought you meant that the “codes ARE shit, themselves” which I interpreted as too general or too specific. But then I read some replies and think maybe i’m mistaken.

      1. Vertigo*

        Hahaha I didn’t even noticfe that! I meant to write that the employee submits them themselves.

        Obviously you can tell what I think of the current “system” here…

      2. My cat is my alarm clock*

        I read it as ‘that shit’ being something people code themselves.

  142. TMI, Y'all*

    My supervisors don’t take privacy seriously. I work at a job that hires a lot of disabled people (75+% requirement), and I’ve been told other people’s disabilities several times by the supervisors (without me asking or needing to know). They’ll also tell us as a group what someone is sick with when they call out or tell us what someone was diagnosed with that led to them quitting. I’ve reported it to HR once or twice already and they still don’t seem to be changing. I first tried telling the supervisors that I really don’t need to know that information, then flat-out told them that they shouldn’t be telling anyone that information. Nothing seems to stick. It’s an entry-level job with employees who have little to no knowledge of their rights or the law, so I’m sure the company is not very worried about getting sued.

    I was always taught that those who gossip to you will gossip about you, so I’m worried about my privacy. They also talk about a person “being” a disability, which is offensive to me (“you’re being too OCD about this” or “he’s ADHD, that’s why he doesn’t listen”). It’s such a casual place there’s not much objection from anyone besides me. How should I deal with this?

    1. Jules the 3rd*

      Standard procedure is
      1) Call it out in the moment
      2) Document and take it to HR / their bosses
      3) Look for a new job

      You are already doing #1, but being a broken record is good there. #2, try writing down who, what they said (as best you can remember), when, and context (eg, ‘announced to team’ or ‘conversation with John, Jane, and me’). Take that to HR every six months or so.

      You’re right that what they’re doing sucks, but it sounds like it’s the culture of the place – management & HR don’t care. That’s where #3 comes in – you may need to find a better place to work. They totally are going to gossip about you, and their disrespectful treatment of employees is a red flag – there are probably a ton of other Evil Bees problems there.

  143. church lady*

    Sketchy recruiter incident – should I report to the employer?

    I was contacted by a recruiter for a job with a local firm that sounded like a great fit and involved work that I actually like to do. She mentioned a salary figure (not a range, a figure) that was within my desired range. We met in person at a local chain coffee house, where she mostly read from a computer screen, took time from our allotted half hour to get food for herself, then asked me what I currently earn. Now, I know from reading this blog for the past year that my answer should have been, “Is there a range” or “I’m looking in the range of $X to $Y”. I know all this, and still I panicked and told her what I make as an admin for a nonprofit (where I am grossly underpaid compared to the market and don’t get any benefits either). I really wanted the job and I blanked out and told her. I also figured it didn’t matter because she had already quoted a figure. She said in that case, the salary she would be asking for me was $5,000 less than the figure she told me over the phone. When I pushed back a little and said I was looking in the range of the original figure she quoted me, she hesitated and said that my competition for the role was stiff (some candidates had actually done this type of work before) and she didn’t want to turn off the clients by asking for more.

    I left that meeting with a bad taste in my mouth. Went online and found out it became illegal to ask about current salary in my state as of this past January 1. I had an in person interview with the client hiring manager and two of the firm’s principals. I thought it went well, and they kept me afterward to describe their benefits package, but did not discuss salary. Had they brought it up, I would have said something.

    Three weeks later, I reached out to the recruiter to find out if I was still a viable candidate. She replied that she didn’t know, that her contract with the client had been fulfilled, suggested I reach out to the hiring manager at the firm and good luck. I emailed the hiring manager four days ago and so far, no reply.

    What I want to know is, should I inform the client about the recruiter breaking the law when she asked me for my current salary? This was not some newbie, recent-grad recruiter, it was a mature female with 20 plus years in the business. Should I wait until I hear back from the client about my status (what if they ghost me?)

    1. Buu*

      If her contract has been fulfilled but they are still hiring I wonder if they dropped her? I’d not bother to bring it up tbh.

  144. Alice*

    Why is the person on a committee who says “we have to be strategic about this” every ten minutes also the person who has done about ten percent of the tasks she took on?
    Yes, if you spend five months not making progress, you’re right, we have to be strategic as we decide which parts of the original plan we’re going to jettison.

    1. WellRed*

      They are in over their heads and think that phrase sounds like they know what they are doing.

      1. Seven hobbits are highly effective, people*

        Also, it may be the piece of feedback they are getting from their own boss about their progress on the project, and they don’t realize that it will sound different coming out of their mouth than their boss’s mouth.

  145. Kyle*

    My wife has a graduate degree and a professional license in a healthcare field.

    Her supervisor called her and three peers into a meeting and said that the company was cutting their budget and they wanted to lay off the receptionist and have the four professionals split time at the front desk.

    My wife immediately said it wasn’t productive for people with their experience and education to do receptionist work. She expected her peers to back her up but they pretty quickly agreed to do it.

    Later my wife went to her supervisor and said if everybody else is doing it she’ll do her time at the front desk too. The supervisor said she has an “inappropriate attitude” and she isn’t needed at the front desk because she’s afraid she’ll be a “bad face for the organization.”

    Was my wife wrong here? I don’t think she was wrong to put her foot down and question it but her supervisor seems to think she acted inappropriately and pulled a “not in my job description” temper tantrum. My wife is pretty upset, she had a very friendly relationship with her supervisor (they would go to lunch 1-2 times a week) and now this has really spoiled the relationship.

    1. H.C.*

      I don’t think your wife is wrong in her reasoning, but how she approached the matter could’ve been more diplomatic.

      If I was in her position when that news broke out, I would’ve first asked whether the front desk rotation was temporary until company’s finances improve, and mention how it would impact the work output since the four professionals will likely have to divert resources to handle receptionist duties (& once the front desk rotation is implemented, document how it did impact productivity -i.e. staff spent ‘x’ hours doing admin duties, leading to delays in ‘y’ project, etc.)

      1. valentine*

        The only place she went wrong was saying she would cover. Agreeing to do the wrong thing is wrong and she should be less amenable to going along to get along. She also could’ve waited and talked to the others, perhaps individually. Maybe they felt obliged or guilted. Everyone said yes too quickly.

    2. Jules the 3rd*

      Your wife wasn’t wrong, but how that goes over depends on the company culture and tone of the conversation.

      Your wife probably wasn’t happy and probably showed it. I wouldn’t be happy… ‘not in my job description’ is a valid response to that proposal! But the supervisor was probably also having a bad day (firing people usually does that), and resistance becomes a focal point. Add in that many places where healthcare licensing is needed are ‘mission driven’, where people are expected to ‘take one for the team’, and resistance becomes out of the company norm.

      The fact that her company is requesting this mis-use of their time instead of either just letting go of a receptionist entirely, or cutting receptionist hours down to part time is actually a red flag to me. Are there other examples of mis-use of company resources like this? Is the budget cut a symptom of a larger problem in the company? If a receptionist is required (eg, a social services office), why were these 4 people picked, and is their supervisor taking a shift? (I mean, if they’re doing 25% less work, supervisor has 25% less work to do too, right?) Is there a gender component to it?

      Your wife may want to consider her employment situation overall, and try to figure out whether this was ‘Supervisor was stressed and had an one-off bad but very human reaction’ or ‘Supervisor’s reaction is a symptom of a toxic workplace.’

      1. Bismuth*

        I just wanted to say that this is an A+ comment, full of potential underlying issues I wouldn’t have thought of. What a great analysis.

        1. Jules the 3rd*

          Thanks! I have read a lot of Alison, it’s nice to hear some of it’s sinking in.

    3. Another worker bee*

      I just came to say that I too have a graduate degree and a highly technical job and one of my previous employers pulled this crap- having everyone, regardless of position, take a front desk shift. It was nominally to give the normal admin/customer facing people a break but the actual results were:
      * the technical people were not good at actually handling requests that came up, because it’s not my job to run the mail room and I don’t know where maintenance equipment is stored, etc. Either the customer was annoyed and had to wait or the admins had to come back and help anyway
      * Our customers are annoyed, because they were paying good money for the services of highly technical people, and our attention/time was taken away from them
      * Extremely bad will between the technical people and the support staff arose. The technical people were overworked and had to make awful choices to manage our time, and an hour away for a lunch break was absolutely laughable – it never happened. Meanwhile we gave up an hour at work (read: added on an hour to the evening) so that the admin people could have a break. Anytime we pushed back (I need this person with a way less stressful job to eat at their desk today so that me, who eats at my desk EVERY DAY can put my head down and focus on something for a client that is paying us a six figure sum) our comments were relayed to the support staff by management in such a way that caused them to hate us.

      AND, this company, where I no longer work, is going down in flames.

      1. Gumby*

        Not to mention that technical people tend to have larger salaries than front desk people and it completely screws your overhead rates to be paying, say, $80/hour, for receptionist-work.

        If I were a technical person in that position I would strongly consider not making up the time I spent at the front desk. You aren’t telling management how to effectively use their resources but you are letting them fully realize the costs. If you spend 2 hours at the front desk that is 2 hours that won’t get spent on the project. If everyone diverts 2 hours per week? That means the project schedule slips.

        Though I do suspect that actually talking to support staff could probably alleviate some of the ill will. If the conversation is not filtered through management it would probably reduce friction.

        Customer-facing/admin people do deserve a break! Happily, it is much easier to find qualified temps to cover that type of work. (At my job the technical people have advanced degrees in STEM fields, mostly PhDs, we absolutely could not find a temp to fill in for their work functions.)

  146. seller of teapots*

    Anyone have experience brining their infant to work? I go back to work after memorial day with a 10-week old, and my boss (the ceo) has said they’re okay with me bringing her to work at first. I have a nanny for my 2-year old son, so I don’t *have* to take her. But truthfully I’m not ready to leave her and I find this offer very appealing.

    Anyone done something like this?

    1. Purple Jello*

      No, but once my children starting moving/crawling, I would not have taken them into work because they got into everything. (Their first word was “stuck”, and I considered getting one of them a football helmet because she fell so much.)

    2. WellRed*

      I’d find out exactly what your boss is “OK” with, or more accurately, what they think they are OK with vs reality, what the expectations are, etc.

    3. Not All*

      I don’t have kids, but I worked with someone who did this. You need to be prepared to both manage the distraction AND the perception of distraction.

      There are real distractions like how are you going to handle everyone feeling like they need to come by to see the baby? This is a distraction for not only you and the people dropping by, but also everyone trying to work nearby (less of an issue if you have an actual office as opposed to cube, or work in a smaller office…we had @100 employees who all knew each other well).

      There are also the perceived issues that may or not be real…there is a lot of perception that your attention is going to be on the baby rather than on getting back to speed, that you’ll be constantly a little distracted by watching her rather than fully focused on the conversations you should be having, etc.

      Bring the baby in will absolutely burn some capital…the questions are how much & how much do you have? For some people, they have a lot of capital, great reputations & relationships, and an easy baby who sleeps the whole day anyway. Other extreme are people who are already viewed as slackers by their coworkers and have a fussy baby that distracts both them and everyone in ear shot.

    4. Ann Perkins*

      I’ve had a baby at work with me before but never for more than a week at a time. Have a bouncer she likes handy and somewhere you can set her down for naps. Plan on things like where are you going to feed, change diapers, what do you do if the baby is napping in the PNP but you need to go check your mail or to the restroom.

  147. T3k*

    So a couple things have popped up.

    First, I had my first ever annual review (past jobs were too small and never did this, or I was a short term contactor). It went pretty well considering, but I won’t know if I’ll get anything (raise or bonus) out of it for another month (really hoping for a decent raise).

    That said, the job isn’t in an area I want to make a career in, so I’m still actively looking for other jobs related to what I want to do. The kicker is this: a company I worked for in the last couple years (as a short term contractor) just posted internships in the same field that I worked there as (I wasn’t going back to school at the time but am now). On one hand I want to apply as I’ll need internships anyways to complete this degree but on the other hand I feel I’d be better off just re-applying to one of their actual jobs (again, more contract positions). Or just branch out entirely to another company, though these positions are hard to find (despite it being a relatively entry level position, most in the industry don’t post them). I still have time to think things over, but it’s difficult as in my head I’m going “I don’t want to be 30 and still working customer service/making less then 30k a year” type deal and feel like I’m racing against the clock.

    1. Jules the 3rd*

      If you have to have internships, why not apply? Don’t feel bad about working for the same company again, if it’s in a different group you’ll get plenty of variety for a resume.

      If the degree considers contract jobs the same as internships, then yes, apply for the contract positions, but make sure of that with your advisor (if they’re not already gone for the summer…)

      Or just apply to both and decide which one to accept after you know which ones offer you a position.

  148. Amethyst*

    I’m currently working at a temp job to help me pay the bills while I’m job searching for a better-paying job. (I was laid off in November.) Around the same time I was laid off I was fending off an intrusive ex-coworker (very manipulative woman in her 60s who’s hellbent on turning me into her third “daughter”; I’ve been dealing with her off and on since we met at a job about 16 years ago). If she had her way, I’d be completely smothered by her and be paralyzed with indecision while she chews over all possible outcomes 50 bazillion times before running my life for me. (I wish I was joking.) She resurfaced last Thursday saying she’d noticed that I’d been sharing social media posts from X Company and was I working there? I told her I just liked their food. (X Company is my temp job, but I’ve been keeping it quiet, sharing it with only a few people.)

    It was the most unpleasant shock of my life. On Tuesday, this woman dragged her daughter into the place, with her protesting that “it’s not kosher, Mom, let’s go!” and proceeded to attempt to dig into my life while I was working. She made minimal effort to browse while doing so. I got my coworker to cover for me after I mouthed “help me!” and beelined it to the back to hide. They left as soon as I disappeared.

    I have informed my boss and most of my coworkers about this woman and I’ve blocked her entire family on Facebook. Is there anything else I could’ve done? This was a pretty traumatic experience for me and I’m still trying to recover my sense of safety after basically being stalked by this woman.

    1. CatCat*

      Talk to your boss about banning the woman from the premises. “Woman is a stalker. Can we ban her from the premises?” If yes, get clarification on what that looks like. “Just so I’m clear on how to enforce the ban: if I or another employee sees Woman, we would tell her to leave immediately and then call the police if she refuses.”

      If you’re not comfortable going to your boss about this more or if the boss says no, you could also look at getting a restraining order from a court against the woman. Check if your court system has a self-help website with information on restraining orders (in my state, victims of stalking and harassment can seek one called a civil harassment restraining order). That’s a more involved process since you need to go to court, but there’s also more “teeth” than just trying to block her since she can be arrested for violating the order.

    2. Environmental Compliance*

      Have you considered getting a restraining order? That woman sounds terrifying.

      1. Bismuth*

        Why did you reply to her in the first place? Do not engage, do not engage, do not engage. And read The Gift of Fear by Gavin de Becker. Even if you’re not afraid of her, that doesn’t mean you should have to deal with this.

    3. Veryanon*

      Oh man, that is horrifying. Definitely block her, her family, and any possible mutual acquaintances on social media, block her phone number, block her email, and consider a restraining order. Does she know where you live? Hopefully not. And pick up a copy of Gavin de Becker’s Gift of Fear, which I’m currently reading myself. I no longer am active on Facebook because of something similar – a romantic relationship that went south, and the guy just.couldn’t.let.go.

      Ugh, hang in there.

    4. Amethyst*

      Thanks, guys. We have had no contact other than on Facebook so she & her family have been blocked there. She’s never had any other way of contacting me except for the extremely rare running into each other while shopping somewhere. (It’s happened probably once in the entire time I’ve known her.) I also discussed the situation with my bosses & they said they’d play hard-ass if she shows up, & will escalate it into banning her from the premises if she becomes a nuisance. X Company is a small family-owned business so there’s no security.

      Why I’ve answered her: I answer questions she’s never asked when she gets in touch with me. Up until now, I’ve found it to be the best way to handle her as she usually goes away after a couple nonanswers. There have been times where she’s left me alone for years, so she was on my radar as A Very Difficult Person, but Can Be Managed Carefully. After Tuesday, I was seriously considering pursuing a restraining order if I chose to send a cease & desist. I didn’t. Again, we had no other way of contacting each other except Facebook, & I thought the police would view the C&D via Facebook Messenger invalid. Also, a great friend of mine raised the possibility that sending it might possibly enrage her enough to try to threaten my job. So I’m not sure what else to do here.

  149. Another worker bee*

    This is for all the recruiters out there…what’s the deal with cold emailing employed people(linked-in messaging, mostly) people and then expecting them to do a lot of work?

    This seems to happen often where I get hit up for jobs that I am not interested in and often overqualified for, BUT I work for a startup so I usually try to maintain a good relationship and lowkey feelers, just in case. BUT when I point out “this is a lateral move at best”, or “I’m in (fun subfield) and this is (lame subfield) and I’d prefer to continue doing this type of work”, etc. they always come back and ask me to submit a resume and schedule an interview with them, etc. and it’s like….I said I’m not looking, which means that I’m definitely not motivated to do this job searching BS. Meanwhile, when I’ve been unemployed and actually want to do all that crap, they won’t take your calls.

    1. MissDisplaced*

      Ha! I know it seems that way.
      I guess they feel you’re a better candidate or better prospect because you are currently employed.

    2. LaDeeDa*

      Literally just sent the following message on LinkedIn– “thank you for reaching out to me and sending the details of the position you are recruiting for. Currently I am in a very senior leadership role and feel that this would be a step backwards. If I know of anyone who might be interested I will connect you. Good luck with your search.”

    3. Easily Amused*

      I often get messages on LI about jobs in NYC, SF and, recently “a great opportunity in the US” (recruiter is in London). I live in Upstate NY. WAY upstate. Closer to Canada than NYC upstate. That info is very clearly listed on my profile. I’ve sometimes responded that I would be interested if they allow remote work and they always say they do not. Makes me wonder if any of these people have ever bothered to look at a map before spamming me.

  150. Pregnant and job searching*

    This morning I disclosed my pregnancy while discussing a job offer. They’re going to get back to me about it on Monday. What do I do if they revoke the offer? There’s nothing else like salary or benefits that we’re negotiating, so if they did it would have to be because of the pregnancy. I know it’s illegal to not hire me because of it, but also like… threatening a lawsuit doesn’t seem like it would be a great move. Any ideas?

    1. CatCat*

      If you want to pursue legal remedies, hire a lawyer. If the offer is revoked, don’t “threaten a lawsuit,” go talk to a lawyer. You would want a lawyer to advise you and handle any further communications with the company.

    2. Tina Belcher's Less Cool Sister*

      What is there to get back to you about? Are you requesting accommodations (other than time off)? Hopefully they realize that it is indeed highly illegal to revoke the offer at this stage, and if they’re decent people, they’ll recognize that employees, even new ones, need time off for medical reasons like pregnancy/birth.

      1. Pregnant and job searching*

        That’s what I’m concerned about- what is there to get back to me about? I’m not requesting any accommodations. Taking this job would likely require a move, so I figured if they were going to be weird about it it would be best to find out before that happened.

        1. Tina Belcher's Less Cool Sister*

          Absolutely, you don’t want to uproot your entire life only to find out you ended up somewhere that doesn’t think employees are allowed to be humans with needs outside of work. Best of luck!

        2. AvonLady Barksdale*

          They’re probably trying to work out how to include maternity leave in the offer and what that will look like, since at a lot of places you have to be working there for at least a year before you get certain benefits. I wouldn’t jump straight to “revoking the offer,” because in addition to causing legal issues, that’s a terrible look.

  151. MissDisplaced*

    Question for HR / Recruiting / Market Intel

    If you’re an HR person, does your company use job postings / phone screenings to gather market intelligence?
    Because I’ve now had two experiences where I felt as though the recruiter wasn’t really interested in my or my qualifications, but I was being grilled about my current company for either general market intel or in one case insider information.

    Example:
    #1 Questioned extensively about my company and my company’s position about certain technology things, how they were structured, and of course why I was looking (there has been massive restructuring and layoffs, but this is not public knowledge). Not many questions about, you know, ME the applicant.
    #2 On my last job search I was setup with a 2nd round call to speak to a person who was an investor (like private equity) in the company I was interviewing for. The guy didn’t ask anything at all about me or my qualifications, but I felt I was being pumped for some kind of insider financial information about my former company and the nature of the deal that had made us a public company.

    Some of these conversations feel very weird and awkward. Honestly, it makes me wonder if the job even exists or if these HR/Recruiter people are just assigned to collect some type of market information from the applicants. Is this normal? Why would you do this to applicants? What’s the purpose?

    Note: Wunderment had a somewhat related comment upthread where she felt she was being used as a free consultant disguised as an interview. I guess that’s more of an extreme variation of my question.

  152. Environmental Compliance*

    Made a mistake, found it yesterday. We had a stormwater permit go through renewal, the new one became active on the 1st. I didn’t realize that they had switched some of our sampling to a daily instead of 2x weekly, so we missed about 20 samples. Frustrated with myself, sent in the report, notified my supervisor… we should only get a NOV from it, but still. It shouldn’t have happened at all, and I’m frustrated.

    1. CheeryO*

      Friendly neighborhood state regulator here… it happens. I’d be willing to bet that the permit is at least partially to blame for not including clear language describing the changes, not that that argument would get you very far.

      I don’t know if it’ll make you feel better, but I’ve had more than one small municipal plant that went YEARS without doing weekend sampling, because for some reason they took “daily” to mean “daily, Monday through Friday.” We had to start writing “7 days/week” on our permits to head off that particular issue.

      1. Environmental Compliance*

        To be fair too it was a misunderstanding over a totally separate outfall that required ATEL studies, and I was asking about a continuous monitor there, but not at all referencing the other outfalls, which is where I missed the samples. And then it was one sentence out of a 45 page document, that three of us reviewing missed. And this might be my air background bias (I used to write state air permits), but the stormwater permits are written horribly and formatted horribly. So logically I can see exactly how it happened, and honestly if I were still a state regulator I’d send the Finger Shaking Letter, but as the private sector… gah. I’m trying to drag this facility into a good light, not keep it in the Swamp of Noncompliance.

  153. ArtK*

    I really need to get out of this place. No support and we’re starting work with government customers in places that have horrible human rights records.

    I’m in conversations with an old boss and one of his managers about coming to work for them. There are a lot of upsides, but there are some downsides, too. First, the job would be cleaning up someone else’s horrible code — something that I’ve been doing for a long time. I’d really prefer to be writing my own horrible code, but I just can’t find jobs like that. Second, it’s in an industry that is badly regarded; this particular subsidiary isn’t involved in the nastiness and is doing good stuff, but still… Third, I really wanted to work somewhere where my work was directly making people happy. That’s not the case here. The product is a very necessary tool and can be involved in saving lives, but the connection is so remote that there’s little personal satisfaction in it.

    On the upside, I would be making more money; my salary has been stagnant for the last 7-8 years. I’d work for people who actually support what I’m doing. They’re expanding the team and there would be new people to work with. I’d have a good chance of learning new technologies — along with my salary, my growth has been stagnant.

    One side note: Folks often worry about looking like a job hopper on their resume. I looked at the hiring manager’s profile and he’s got a lot of short stints. I asked him directly about that and he had a reasonable response, based on the kind of work he has done in the past. I just thought it was interesting that the job hopper situation was reversed!

    1. Havarti*

      Is the money and learning new tech enough to balance out cleaning up code? You could use is as a stepping-stone for something better. More money would hopefully mean you can save some and if you have more skills to put on your resume, that would be a bonus too.

    2. Mockingjay*

      Maybe you can look at New Job as a stepping stone to get what you really want. Bank the extra salary, learn some new stuff. When you are ready, you’ll be in a position to search carefully and find a role that makes you truly happy. You’ll have more experience and skills to offer as well.

  154. TheJobDenier*

    I have a conundrum.

    A few months ago I told my boss I was looking for a different position with a bit more seniority in our company. He was super supportive about it and said he’d help me however he could, and a couple of months ago he told me that there would be a coordinator opening soon in a department that works alongside ours. At first I was excited and told him I was very glad that he thought of me and that I was for sure interested, but afterwards I realized that the job would be at a sister location that, although is in the same city as my current office, is further away from where I am right now. I’d have to suffer through more commute time than I already do, and I’m already going crazy over the long hours I spend commuting to work at the moment. No biggie, I thought; I figured I could go through the hiring process and ask about the salary – if they offered me a raise I could probably make something work, but it’d have to be a big raise for me to consider/be able to move to that office.

    So I kept an eye open for the opening to appear on our portal so I could apply, but weeks went by and nothing showed up. I told my boss about it, as he asked me to let him know as soon as I applied, but as time went by more and more I felt like my mind was pretty much made up that this wasn’t the job for me and that moving locations would just make my life even more miserable.

    Cut to today. He calls me for a quick talk. Yesterday he went to our sister location, and while there he spoke pretty darn well of me, basically selling people out on the idea of hiring me. Apparently there were issues during the process of creating the job on our portal, so the opening isn’t going to be posted on the intranet and there’s not even going to be a hiring process; if I say I want the job, they’re going to transfer me there even sooner than expected, maybe next week even (!!!). My boss called me because he wanted to confirm I was still interested. I told him I was actually waiting to know more about the job before committing to it, like the compensation package and the roles; he explained to me more or less what the role will be, the activities I’d perform – took him a minute or so, it was more just a quick overview instead of a detailed description of the roles, but ok – but it seems I won’t have a salary boost after all, even though I’ll have a lot more responsibilities than I do now. I told him I’d give him an answer Monday, but I know my mind is made up. It’s a shame… the job seems great and it’s exactly the extra responsibility I was hoping for, but the location of the sister office is beyond awful for me. If there was a possibility to do the job from my current office with my current salary I’d accept it on the spot, but unfortunately there’s no such option.

    How should I tell my boss? I feel bad that he pitched out for me and now I’m going to say no, even after he went through all that trouble of advocating for me. Please help!

    1. acctnt*

      I think it’s totally acceptable to say that you are thankful that he went to bat for you, but with the longer commute and more responsibility, you can’t accept that kind of position without a substantial pay raise. You did exactly the right thing by wanting to know more about the position and pay!

      1. Auntie Social*

        Can you do 3 days there and 2 days at the other office? And why if there is more responsibility is there not more pay?

  155. Triplestep*

    A time management recommendation: This past week’s letter about getting ghosted/not hearing back in a set time frame elicited a bunch of responses from people on the hiring side who don’t have time to respond to e-mails, or let things slide while they are waiting to hear back from someone else. Well I – and a lot of other people – ALSO have jobs wherein we get lots of e-mails and often have things that could slide while we’re waiting to hear back from someone else. I wanted to share a recommendation:

    McGhee Productivity Solutions, (mcgheepro dot com) has a course they call “Take back your life with Microsoft Outlook.” It is NOT (as the trainer said numerous times) an Outlook training. It is a time management training that helps you use behaviors and some built-in features of MS Outlook to manage your e-mails, to-do list, and time.

    I took this course years ago – paid for by my company – and it is expensive. But they now offer online webinars, sometimes at a great discount. Also, you can also find many of the books available on eBay, but make sure you’re getting the most recent one – or the one that corresponds with your version of outlook – as they update the training to correspond with the features.

    If anyone wants me to talk more about this here and describe some of what I learned and still practice, I’ll check back for comments. Otherwise, go online and check it out!

    1. Not So NewReader*

      Just a general question. If you take a course are there instructional materials that you can print out and keep?

      1. Triplestep*

        There should be. I took an in-person course, and was given the book as part of it. So I imagine that there must be printables with the webinars.

      1. Triplestep*

        Have you taken the “Take back your life …” class?

        If not, I’m not sure what you’re basing your comment on. The cost savings of buying a book over taking a class? Meh, you could just as easily buy the “Take back your life …” book that I mentioned, so all things being equal cost-wise, I don’t agree that you’d be better off with GTD.

  156. disgusted*

    This is *super gross* so please put down your drink or lunch as you read.

    I work at a small-ish company and my desk is near the very front of the building near the facilities manager. He is constantly burping, hiccupping, and spending between 15 and 30 mins in the single stall bathroom that is also at the front of the building, a mere 5 feet from my desk. He also likes to clip his fingernails. After a particularly loud burp he might say “skooooo” in a high pitched voice, which I guess he decided is short for excuse me? There have been a few instances where I have literally almost thrown up, but I won’t get into those.

    HR has made comments to me and my boss about how she “doesn’t know how we can stand it”. I have requested to move cubicles but that was denied. Any advice on how to confront the situation? Speak to HR even though she knows it’s happening? I’m really at a loss here because I think it’s human decency to not display this type of thing in a professional environment.

    1. MissDisplaced*

      Well… this sounds like the person may actually have a medical issue if it is THAT constant.
      On the fingernail clipping, you could say something him like “Hey, would you mind not doing that at your desk, the sound really grosses me out,” but the burping and hiccupping is kind of, how shall I say this, is a little more involuntary. And it is not directed as you personally is it? [unlike the case of bean-eating farter who doing it on purpose to get the lone female worker out of the office]

      Spending 15-30 minutes in the bathroom can also happen(!) and there isn’t much you can do sometimes, so I don’t know if that is the right thing to be policing, you know. Unless this impacts your work or ability to use the restroom yourself. I’m not saying it isn’t gross… humans are gross in general. We have a guy in my office who often hacks… like he a cat hacking up fur balls and then runs into the bathroom. Ick, but what can you say really.

      1. disgusted*

        This could have probably been a little more of a rant than advice seeking but I figured that since even HR commented how gross it was, it’s probably not an ADA medical issue or anything like that. Just super gross since there are noises constantly throughout the day and some days I have to crank up my headphones and try really hard to not focus on what is happening 5 feet away from me.

        1. MissDisplaced*

          Do you believe he’s doing it on purpose to piss people off… or is he just crass and clueless?
          If it’s lack of manners, calling it out a few times as indicated below might work to embarrass him into at least attempting to be quieter about his bodily noises. If not, I would request to move further away from him again.

          But you know some people never will. Remember the office lady who kept lifting a cheek and farting?
          She didn’t see a thing wrong with doing that in front of her coworker. My own mom who is now 79 has gotten that way too, she now sees no problem burping and farting around people or in public and talking about medical or bodily stuff to people. Ugh!

          1. valentine*

            this sounds like the person may actually have a medical issue
            Please don’t assume or proceed as though it’s a medical issue. Go to HR and say the [nouns] made you physically ill and it’s a matter of time before you’re vomiting. I assume he’s in an open area. If he has a door, though, ask him to keep it closed. Someone said no to moving you. What about moving him? Think about other spaces either of you could go and what possibilities exist. Is his bathroom time delaying yours? Is it the only bathroom?

    2. WellRed*

      Why can’t you move? I’d be tempted to knock on the bathroom door regularly about 10 minutes in (like I need to use it), but that’s passive aggressive and evil.

      1. Colette*

        Yeah, that’s really a bad idea. Whether he needs to be there for medical issues or he is just hanging out there for fun, you don’t want to be the person policing other people’s bathroom use.

    3. wandering_beagle*

      The fact that this guy does that “skooo” thing tells me that he’s likely not going to change and/or he’s going to be extremely dismissive of any attempt to get him to rein in his behavior. I say this because the way you described it sounds like he’s mocking a woman’s voice by doing a high-pitched thing like a “dainty” lady or something…it’s just …ugh. Anyway, I think he knows he’s being inappropriate and he’s challenging people to say something by being over the top.

      When people are being purposely offensive like that, I just go with extreme bluntness with a tone of incredulity and bemusement. Like after a loud burp: “Oh my god, Jerry! (slight chuckle) That’s so gross! Can you not do that?” Maybe a bit more humor if you have to work actually work with him and preserve some type of professional relationship: “WOOOOW!! You win the award for totally grossing me out today.” Or you could just do a long, slow clap after a particularly loud belch.

    4. Veryanon*

      What the what? “SKOOOOOO”???? Dude. Dude. I think I’d have to call him on it the next time, like “Jesus Christ, Fergus, are you okay? Can you please stop that? It’s super gross.” He clearly doesn’t get that this is wildly inappropriate, or doesn’t give two hoots.

    5. The Man, Becky Lynch*

      Is there any reason you haven’t made him aware that he’s grossing you out? This is something you have every right to speak up to him personally about because it’s one of those “That’s making me uncomfortable/triggering my gag reflex, please knock it off.” If he had any manners he’d excuse himself but no, he’s happily over there making his gross sounds and clipping his nails like a total jackhole!

    6. techPerson*

      Are the hiccups gross or just annoying? Curious because I’ve never been “grossed out” by someone else having hiccups, but I’m also more prone to them than other people.

      1. Lilysparrow*

        Yeah, me too. I understand being annoyed to BEC stage, but what’s gross about hiccups?

        And what’s he supposed to do about them? You can stifle a burp, but you really can’t control hiccups, no matter what you do.

        1. Auntie Social*

          You can. Rhythmic breathing. Lie on the floor, press on diaphragm. Deep breath, in 2, 3, 4, out, 2, 3, 4. Works for all but the most severe cases, the kind where you have to go to the ER for a reboot.

  157. Hepzibah Pflurge*

    Just a quick note to show the AAM community some love. I’m a fairly new disciple of AAM, and it is a treasure trove of useful information. Alison is so, so gifted at what she does here. Equally as important are the commenters, who make a great site even better with additional perspectives and unlimited doses of support and tough (but fair) love, depending on the situation. I’m only being slightly melodramatic when I say that this site is a beacon of hope in the increasingly bizarre and vituperative world of the magical interwebs.

    TL;DR: Alison has built an amazing site and it shows, both in the information contained and in the community. Happy to be a part of it.

    Enjoy your weekends, all!

  158. Struggling Grad Student*

    How do I know if it’s time to leave a phd program? I don’t know if I’m just struggling right now (particularly with mental and some physical health) and once I get things managed I’ll be better, if I’m just in a rough patch and once things get more organized with work I’ll be fine, or if I’m just… Not cut out for grad school at this point in my life. I haven’t really brought it up to my PI, though I think he’d try to be helpful. I do know that I think about it the most when I’m particularly overwhelmed and not nearly so much when I’m, well, not. But I have never thought of myself as a quitter either, so I don’t know if I’m just resistant to leaving on those grounds. So… How do I know? Has anyone here left a PhD program and how did it affect your career if so?

    (I also have very little confidence right now and have a hard time figuring out what marketable skills I even have so that’s part of my frustration.)

    1. Minerva McGonagall*

      It sounds like if you haven’t already, you should reach out to a counselor for some additional help. Being in grad school is tough, but there are supports on campus that can help. Check in with your school’s counseling center to see about meeting with someone.

      I think meeting with a counselor should be first, followed by your school’s career office. They can help you talk about your marketable skills should you choose to leave the program, and what career options could be of interest to you. Your advisor can also be a big help, if you trust him to be supportive.

      1. Struggling Grad Student*

        I’m seeing a therapist already and am considering trying antidepressants (and my school’s counseling center isn’t ideal; they helped me through some initial struggles and referred me out for continued treatment). And yeah, I’ll keep thinking and hopefully get up the courage to talk to my advisor at least about what I’m struggling with.

    2. Close Bracket*

      Don’t leave without a Master’s! I’m sure you have thought of that, but I wanted to make sure I said it.

      Does your university have a counseling center? Go there, or look for other counselling resources. I can’t promise that it will help, but it might. I had a really hard time in grad school due to a poor fit with my group, untreated mental health issues, and undiagnosed autism (which I’m sure was a contributing factor to the former two). I got through it … somehow. Sheer bloody-mindedness, partly, and I also changed groups, not entirely by choice, and I had a nice group of colleagues who I did homework with who really helped as a support system as my relationship with my original group imploded. One of my colleagues had a mental health breakdown and had to leave the program. Grad school is such a pressure cooker. There is no shame in leaving, but let me encourage you to seek out a support system first.

      1. Struggling Grad Student*

        My program doesn’t give interim masters but “may” give a terminal masters if you leave after year 2 in good standing. I’m at the end of year two now, trying to get through quals kinda behind the rest of my cohort; so that process would be its own challenge. And yeah, I started at my university’s counseling center and they eventually referred me out (I’m still not sure I’m a good fit with my current therapist).

        But yeah, I’ll definitely try to rekindle my support system (since classes ended and we all settled into labs, we haven’t been keeping up as much). Thank you for your advice.

        1. Close Bracket*

          I meant a terminal master’s instead of just quitting. Long term, a master’s is better and easier to explain than a dropped PhD. If you have a master’s, you never have to even mention that it started as a PhD. If you have half a PhD, well, you either have to explain dropping out or explain the gap on your resume. If you decide to leave, leave with a master’s.

          Try the antidepressants. The evidence says that therapy + meds is better than either alone, so it’s worth a try. Finding an antidepressant that fits is as hard as finding a therapist that fits.

    3. Murphy*

      I got an MS, finished my coursework, passed my exams…and then quit.

      For me, it’s occasionally led to somewhat awkward questions when I got my MS in X year, but then I have being a TA on my resume through X+2 years. I’ve only had one interviewer actually have a problem with it, and she had problems with a few things and overall seemed like a terrible person. That hasn’t been the case otherwise. Either it hasn’t come up, or nobody cared. I’m working in a field where grad school experience is a plus, but what the degree was in, or if you eve have a degree doesn’t really matter.

      It took me a while to get my career back on track, but that was more about the economy/one bad job experience I had than because I quit school. I think it’s largely field dependent and whether you have a good alternative career plan without the PhD (which I did not). I still struggle with what my marketable skills are, but I have a good job now, and am in the pre-offer stage for another one, so it’s probably better than I think.

      I don’t regret it quitting. It wasn’t the right thing for me. I’m not sure how I knew. I just knew. After the better part of a year and no progress on my dissertation, and absolutely no motivation to work on it, I realized that I just really didn’t want to be there anymore. I didn’t want to be in school, and I didn’t feel like I would benefit from the experience of writing a dissertation, other than the degree. This isn’t to disparage PhDs at all. It just wasn’t right for me.

      Think about what you want to get out of being in school and if you’re going to get that. See if you can take a leave of absence and come back and finish your degree later, if you think it might be temporary and you just need some time. Good luck!

      1. Struggling Grad Student*

        I’m glad you haven’t regretted it! And I appreciate your advice. I think I do need to really think about what I want from grad school now (versus when I applied) and figure things out. Thank you.

    4. ghostwriter*

      Hello friend! I am in exactly the same boat as you. I decided to try and tough it out and get the PhD, but I’m way behind in my progress, and if I could go back in time I would probably have stopped after the Master’s + a year of extra coursework.
      I’ve found in my job search that unless you really want to be a professor or lead a research division, then a PhD is not much of an added bonus to employers on the job search. I got a job offer to be a statistician with the federal govt just based on my Master’s plus extra coursework and it qualified me for GS-11 positions (which start at about $67k). I ended up not taking it because I wanted to finish my degree, but it was really heartening to get that offer.
      You have SO MANY marketable skills. Employers want people who can write. CHECK. Employers want people who have worked in teams on complex tasks. CHECK (I’m assuming if you work in any type of lab this is true for you). Do you have teaching/conference presentations under your belt? CHECK for experience training or explaining research to experts and non-experts. Have you done any analyses for your Master’s? CHECK for analytical skills.
      Trust me, after the bullshit you put up with in your grad program, job hunting with a Master’s will probably be a breeze. (E.g., “You mean I only need to send a resume and cover letter, and you’ll poll my references after I get a job offer? You mean I don’t have to write a tome of a teaching portfolio and research statement along with getting 3 refs to write letters in advance and be on call to email them to 100 universities?”)
      If you do choose to stay, make sure that it’s because you know you want the PhD for your career goals and not just because you started and don’t want to be a quitter.

    5. Bubarina*

      I recently finished my PhD program, but there were numerous times I seriously considered quitting. Years ago in my first semester, I had a professor tell me that every PhD student has at least one moment where they need to be peeled off the ceiling. That conversation helped me so much because I probably had 20 or 25 different moments where I needed someone to peel me off the ceiling. I spent a lot of weeks lying in bed stressing about how I wasn’t working fast enough or hard enough or smart enough, which then paralyzed me even more. But it really helped me to know that my response to the stress of a PhD program wasn’t unusual or a signal that I was a failure or lacking in some way.

      I think talking to your PI (or another trusted faculty or staff member) is definitely something you should consider doing soon. It may be possible that you can take a short leave of absence to work on your mental and physical health. I know that was an option with my program. Regardless, I think talking to someone who knows your work and unique context will help put everything in a clearer light. Best of luck.

    6. PhD dropout*

      First of all, I’m sure you know this, but this is SO, SO common, and I feel for you because I have been there, and I have seen so many others there. Feeling depressed and overwhelmed and not good enough in grad school, that is.
      I left grad school (with an MS) after a little less than 3 years. I left mostly because of personal reasons – partner got offered a job with much better upward mobility in the city we wanted to move to eventually right as the same time as my PI’s research associate (who was my advisor in all but name) accepted a job somewhere else, and I had to find someone else to work with. I went from having 2.5 years left to having 4.5 years left which involved switching to a project that I was a lot less excited about, and I ended up just cutting my losses. (Note: the economy also played a role in my decision- it was very easy to get a job when I graduated. If it had been 2008-2012ish, the calculus would have been different) TBH half of my colleagues at my level don’t even have the MS because it’s so hard to hire right now, companies are dropping that kind of requirement.
      Financially this was absolutely the correct move for me – I’ve been able to max out 401k, buy a house, travel, and save a ton, and, when my cohort graduated, I was in a better place in the job market than they were. MS + 3-4 years experience > PhD + no experience at most places.
      Emotionally, I still feel some sort of thing about quitting, but things worked out. I know when I made the decision it seemed like this horrible thing like “if I quit I am admitting I am stupid and I will never amount to as much”, and life is a lot more complicated than that. This is a big decision, but it’s hardly the last career decision you will make in your life, and if you are smart enough to have gotten this far, I’m sure it will turn out ok for you.

    7. 653-CXK*

      I lasted one semester in grad school before dropping out 25 years ago.

      It was a great school, but the program was not so hot, and fighting with the bursar’s office every other day accelerated that decision to withdraw. I don’t regret signing the withdrawal papers for even a second. And to my parent’s chagrin, I never went back, and unless there’s a solid reason to do so, I won’t go back.

  159. stitchinthyme*

    The recent thread about the golf trip made me wonder about something: where’s the line between “you’re not a good culture fit for this company” vs. “this company’s culture is toxic and needs to change”?

    1. Amtelope*

      Times it’s definitely toxic: “not a good culture fit” is code for different demographics (somehow everyone who isn’t a young white guy is a bad culture fit); you started a company with your friends, and now you don’t want to hire anyone who won’t fit into your friend group; your company is seriously out of step with professional norms or abusive to employees in its expectations, and “not a good culture fit” is code for “won’t work eighty-hour weeks” or “actually uses PTO” or “doesn’t want to spend every weekend kayaking with the team.”

      But I think it’s always worth viewing “not a good culture fit” with some skepticism. There are faster-paced and more laid back workplaces, and more casual and more professional workplaces, and I think it’s fine to want employees who’ll be happy in the workplace you’ve got. But it’s really easy to cross the line either into “we only want to hire clones of our existing employees” or “obviously the only reason people are complaining about our terrible workplace is because they’re not good culture fits.”

    2. Lumen*

      Honestly I think the emphasis on people being a “culture fit” (on a personality level) has gotten way out of hand and is now usually used to create low-key but obvious barriers to people in protected classes. I once told a black man who worked in tech that all the ads at the tech company I worked at said “we’re looking for a culture fit above all else” and he just grimaced and said “Yeah, I know what that means”.

      Once upon a time I think it might have meant things like… an office that is very social with one another and an employee who prefers to keep to themselves. That’s not fitting in with the culture, but it doesn’t mean the culture is toxic. But it also doesn’t necessarily have to be a dealbreaker unless it causes conflict and affects work.

      But these days when I hear that someone was “not a culture fit” I’m usually like “so were they too old, too female, too queer, or too non-white?”

    3. gecko*

      I think a “culture fit” is valuable when you’re going to be working alongside someone day in and day out, and you just need to know that you’ll get along with them at a baseline. So for instance, if you have a close, extroverted office, you’d want to know whether someone is a “I don’t come to work TALK, I come to WORK” type; similarly, if you value your quiet office, you want to know whether someone is a “I WILL say hello and chat with you every time I pass your desk” type.

      And it’s obviously not valuable when the reason you won’t get along with someone is a discriminatory reason or if it’s based on discriminatory reasons. And it’s not valuable when the office’s behavior is unreasonable–in both those cases the office have to change.

    4. ArtK*

      I’d start by looking at who is affected by the situation. Is it just you? That’s likely a culture thing. If there is a whole class of people affected, that’s toxic.

        1. Not Me*

          Just like a lot of the comments on the golf trip thread stated: if it would be a problem for others of the same class but not those of a different class.

          1. stitchinthyme*

            Maybe so, but I think it’s a bad one. As a couple of the above comments said, the content is important as well. Being the only introvert in an office of extroverts — yes, that’s probably you rather than them. But if you’re the only one who doesn’t want to work 60-hour weeks, I’d say that’s a problem with the company, not with you, because no matter how willing everyone else is to do it, it’s just not good for your physical or mental health in the long run. Or maybe you’re the only one who objects to nude calendars on the walls — again, just because you’re the only one who doesn’t like it doesn’t mean that you’re the problem.

            1. ArtK*

              I’m afraid that you missed my point, or misunderstand what “rule of thumb” is. It’s a starting point. A general framework. It’s not a bright-line rule that says “X is culture, Y is toxic.” It’s not possible have such a rule. You have to evaluate each situation as it comes. My suggestion is merely one way to approach the problem. There are other approaches, too.

    5. That Girl From Quinn's House*

      I’ve heard it usually to mean “person will not do something illegal to keep everything afloat.”

    6. Countess Boochie Flagrante*

      Honestly, the line is qualitative rather than quantitative. It has to do if the specific expectations of the “culture” are in and of themselves a problem.

      For example, in my job, you have to be pretty comfortable with rigid guidelines of what you can and cannot do. You may have training or system access for things that your current role doesn’t involve — but just because you can doesn’t mean you should. There are people who really struggle with that. They hate the notion that they need to refer the client to a specialist on a particular issue rather than just making the change themselves, when it’s sitting right there staring at them as an option on their dashboard. That’s an example of a culture fit — sure, maybe it would be more efficient if we changed our processes, but this isn’t inherently toxic, just bureaucratic. Some people thrive with those rigid guidelines and are happy to be able to loop in someone who knows more about a specific area to make sure the job is done right the first time.

    7. Triplestep*

      This is such a good question and something I pondered about my last job, although I don’t think I framed it to myself in this way.

      I worked about an hour outside of a major city; it was not a small town by any means, but the staff was composed of people who lived nearby and had either tired of their commute to Big City, or had never worked in Big City and had just been at this place forever. The latter were mostly people who had fallen into roles at this place right out of high school or college and never left; some had been there forty years by the time I got there; their badge photos (worn with honor) were from the 70s. They did not want to change they did things, and were suspect of anyone/anything new.

      I did not live nearby, so I was in neither group (which made me more of an outcast) but closer to group one having worked in Big City. My one teammate – who I love and made life there bearable – was from the first group and agreed that this latter group could not have cut it in Big City companies. They didn’t even seem to realize that things were done differently there, or what it looked like to do their jobs professionally in today’s world.

      The oddest thing was that my manager – who had only started a year before I did – came from this first group (worked in Big City for almost two decades) but fit right in perfectly with this second group. She seemed to embrace their provincial thinking, and just fell right in line with doing things the way they’d always been done. I would somehow wonder how she had ever made it Big City with her demeanor, but nevertheless, it just made my poor culture fit even more pronounced.

      I really do think that the company’s culture is toxic, but it’s never going to change. It will remain a landing place for people who have Big City experience but aren’t moving up anymore and want to work there until retirement, and people who live nearby and are so entrenched in this place that they will also work there until retirement. My lovely teammate (hired three months before I was) is stuck because he does not want to give up his 10 minute commute for the one he used to have, so he’s resigned to it. I lasted 15 months, but started looking after just five.

  160. Fergus*

    I had a perspective employer send me a form today for my height, weight, and eye color.

    1. Zona the Great*

      Why? I would honestly simply write “Decline” next to each of those. How intrusive.

      1. Havarti*

        lol! Fashion model? I mean what would they do with that info? Line people up at the bus stop by height alternating gender and hair color so that one employee doesn’t pitch a fit?

      1. pamela voorhees*

        Or better yet just turn it into a fun little guessing game for them — pick some absurdist non-human character from fiction and describe them (oh, me? Well, I’m eight feet tall, purple, I weigh a lot and I have this sweet metal gauntlet that adds a few pounds…)

    8. Seven hobbits are highly effective, people*

      “kind of person-heightish”, “more than my dog does, I think”, and “a lot of it’s white but there is that part that’s a color, too”.

  161. Introvert girl*

    What’s this thing lately about fake job titels (and description) in job offers?
    For the past couple of years I’ve come across fake job titels in job offers. Companies claiming to be looking for a specific function and background (masters degree) but the job is usually just data input. Don’t they realise they are waisting their time and money as well as mine? As a translator I’ve come across call centers, back office admin and phone sales job offers that were promoted as technical and/or marketing translator jobs. Once I ended up working three months for a prestigious company who after a month tried to force me to sign a “change of job description” which did not include my current position. When I resigned I was told the function I applied for had never existed. Now, by asking the right questions (and thanks to Allison’s advise) I’m able to spot those crooked job offers in the phone interview. But it’s still pretty annoying. Did any of you have similar experiences?

    1. MissDisplaced*

      I sort of had one of those the other day.
      It seemed like a very high-level role, but when I started asking deeper questions about it, the answers didn’t add up and the job came across as being fake or overblown to what they really wanted. (like high falutin’ title but no actual agency or budget to fully do what they were asking for)
      It left me scratching my head, although I did receive word they want to talk to me again and have scheduled another phone interview with the actual hiring manager not the recruiter.

      So, it could be just the recruiter didn’t know enough.

  162. Anon (this time)*

    A couple of weeks ago we had an all-company meeting. During it the customer service lead shared some emails from clients praising employees. One of them was a guy who, though he was not the only person on site who could have done this, left his wife in the hospital *while she was in labor* to go fix a client “emergency” (it was not an emergency, and again there were at least two other people who could have worked on it).

    And everyone was meant to laugh and clap for this, which most people did. I just sat there stunned that this wasn’t something we saw as shameful and a little insane. The culture of overwork here is getting really upsetting.

    1. Tina Belcher's Less Cool Sister*

      Oh my god. His poor wife! This is the kind of thing you read about on the reddit relationships forum, where everyone’s advice is to divorce that inconsiderate a-hole.

    2. Becky*

      This reminds me of a news story a few years ago where a player in some sport missed an important game because his first child was being born. Some reporter asked a question about it implying it was a bad thing and the coach came back HARD that, no, the player was exactly where he needed to be and they were all very happy for him.

      1. lawschoolmorelikeblawschool*

        I’ve heard that happen multiple times in both MLB and NFL. The coach/management does not always back the players either. So sad.

    3. Don't stop laboring*

      Perhaps the guy could frame how he came to his decision. Sometimes labor is very long or she was in early stages or she said she was cool with it or myriad of other possibilities. But if this is a ‘just add this to the list of crazy’ then perhaps it’s not the best example of what to aspire to. Although I hate the ‘read how great your coworkers are’ when it’s entirely out of your hands that someone writes a letter about you or not.

  163. NicoleK*

    Posting on behalf of DH. He runs warmer than the average person. His office likes to keep the temp at 74 degrees. This is causing him a lot of discomfort (ie headaches, inability to focus, and etc). Any tips or suggestions on how he can stay cool and comfortable at work? He is not able to wear shorts. He has spoken to his manager about it. The thermostat was decreased to 73 degrees, but someone turned it up to 74 degrees a few days later.

    1. Amtelope*

      Desk fan (or handheld battery fan)? Gel ice pack to hold/apply to the back of his neck? Drink plenty of ice water? 74 isn’t outrageous, so I think it’s on him to come up with solutions for staying comfortable.

      1. valentine*

        I’d be ill, including struggling to think properly, even in a tank and shorts, which probably aren’t allowed. I don’t suppose a doctor could persuade them to lower the temp to 69°. He can ask to have it locked at 71° or whatever is truly the lowest they’ll go.

        Portable A/C unit that vents out the window. He needs a cold room. Moving back and forth from a slight fan breeze to the tropics all day may be worse than no fan. A spray bottle to spritz water on his face. A frozen gallon jug of water placed in front of a large fan or cooling tower. There are cooling kerchiefs and stuff you’re meant to wear on your neck, but anything gel-based might reek. Do they sell mini freezers so he can have a constant supply of ice bricks or cold-press bags to tuck around him? Someone hear recommended the bfan. I wonder if he could keep that under his desk. If he can be barefoot, cooling his feet might help a lot.

    2. Minerva McGonagall*

      Can he keep a small fan on or under his desk? That plus lightweight clothes and ice water.

    3. stitchinthyme*

      I second the desk fan suggestion. My last job was in a building that was part office, part factory, and I guess they had a lot of problems keeping the temperature comfortable for everyone, because it was regularly 80-85 degrees F at my desk. I called the maintenance people regularly, but there didn’t seem a lot they could do. A desk fan helped a lot.

    4. Utoh!*

      Yes, I have a desk fan for this exact reason. I usually run warmer than others, though can also be cold at times as well! I have a small fan on my desk as well as a lightweight jacket on hand for either situation.

    5. WellRed*

      There are companies that make a cold pack for neck and shoulders that could help. It’s in fabric, so more comfortable than an ice or gel pack (in my mind, anyhow).

    6. OtterB*

      Seconding the cold pack idea. My chorus wears “Kafka’s Kool Tie” from REI as part of our costume when we sing outdoors in the summer and we’re noticeably more comfortable. They are fairly understated and don’t seem out of line in an office unless it’s really formal.

    7. Going anon for this one*

      One degree makes a surprisingly big difference; at least to me. Who has control of the thermostat? Could he tell his manager that it was increased, and ask that there be some official word about leaving it alone?

    8. LCL*

      74, in the US? That is high, and excessive if there aren’t sick or old people or little kids around. It’s not environmentally friendly, for sure. Since it sounds like he can’t fight it, performance socks and underwear would be the way to start. There are synthetics that breathe and are much cooler than cotton. And finding the right type of shoes would help, many styles of atheletic shoes are foot saunas.

      1. lawschoolmorelikeblawschool*

        My office is kept at 75 and there are more than a few people who find that cold. I run hot and I find it fine, but much above there makes me uncomfortable.

    9. Sutemi*

      If he wears business casual, there are some athletic polos marketed for golfers which are made with wicking and cooling fabrics.

      1. T. Boone Pickens*

        Yup, came here to say this. Check out the polos from Rhone, specifically their ‘Delta’ line my brother who is in the golf industry and is outside a ton swears by them to help him keep cool.

        You can also take a look at the Mission product line, they sell a ton of cooling products like no drip towels that your S/O can throw in a lunch bag and keep for a quick cool blast when he feels himself starting to overheat.

    10. ..Kat..*

      Go to Amazon website and search for desktop air conditioner. You will find units with a water reservoir (use ice water!) that are small. Won’t cool a room, but will blow cool air on him.

  164. chaos controller*

    Would love to get some opinions from this amazing community. I’ve applied for a newly created manager position that would oversee my current position, and my co-worker. There lies the problem. Her and I have been equals (in terms of title, responsibility, and amount of work) for 9 years. She is older than me by 18 years, and tends to take the lead in most things that happen (very adverse to change, and classic “type A”) However at this point in my career I am ready to advance, I am qualified for the position (she is not, missing the required education) If I was to get the position, how does one go from equals to manager? We haven’t always had the best working relationship (it was very toxic for a long time) but, we worked through it, and now have found a way to work together. I wonder how she would actually do with me managing her. I have told her I applied, and she said she would support me, but, based on historical behavior, I think that is lip service. Thoughts? Am I crazy for considering this?

    1. Silver Radicand*

      You are not crazy for considering this. Managing her would be a significant part of your job and will affect the peace you have at that role. I would ask your interviewer (hopefully your potential boss) about what leeway you would have in handling (up to and including firing capability) your team members (including this one) as that can really differentiate whether the person in that role will have the tools to succeed should things go south with that co-worker (or, again, any other team member you are over).
      If you get the sense that you might not have that power and/or you might just have to live with this co-worker even if she failed to be at an adequate team member, then I would seriously considering whether you want to be in that position.
      That being said, a great many people have made that leap from co-workers to team member and manager successfully.

      1. MonkeyInTheMiddle*

        +1 I had a similar situation. Was hired to be a manager, but had to work along side my report. That was fine for me, but they thought we were equal. I was a new manager so made some mistakes like softening the message too much, not being direct, and adverse to conflict. It took the better part of 2 years for me to feel like they are okay with me being their boss and becoming better at communicating and addressing things early and directly. Make sure you have support from your management and have the ability to implement changes if you need to.

    2. Expand All Threaded Comments*

      Go for the position. There are no guarantees you will get it, but if you do, you will deal with any difficulties as they come.

      What is the alternative? Not trying for the position, staying where you are, getting a new manager that coworker may treat badly. Eventually leaving to go to a different department/company for a promotion where you may still have a direct report that resents you, and have to deal with it anyways.

      Or you could stay in the same position and wait for your coworker to retire/quit/get fired/die. Seems bleak and neverending.

    3. Annie Dumpling*

      Every so often someone writes in about having a manager/supervisor who won’t deal with a horrible coworker. Instead they just let the coworker get away with being underperforming/truculent/hostile.

      The biggest issue regarding a promotion isn’t will co-worker be nasty. It’s will you have to step up and deal with the (unpleasant/difficult) part of being a manager. The capability you need to question is your own. Can you make the tough decisions, can you be fair yet firm?

  165. aryalistening*

    Well, I have embarrassed myself today…at a team potluck, not only did I make a dish which included an ingredient my boss’s boss is allergic to (and which he ate a bit of without realizing–luckily the allergy is very mild) I also managed to insinuate that he had conducted himself inappropriately with his subordinates…essentially, we were having a more general conversation about higher ups dating people they supervise (and potentially losing their jobs because of it), and I tried to ask about his allergy, but everyone took “Have you had any signs or symptoms of that yet” in the wrong way…definitely wanted to sink through the floor. Luckily most of the team (including this person) have great senses of humor, but ugh, very excited for 5pm now…

    2. Silver Radicand*

      I agree with Well Red. These are super minor. Rest easy and have a great weekend.

  166. Lumen*

    I’ve been planning to leave my current job for a while – the workload in my department is only getting worse, the head of the department fights for months whenever any group begs for additional help, and also, uh… I hate what I’m doing and absolutely every task I’m responsible for makes my brain melt.

    It’s going to be hard to break into any new field but I’d prefer not to just do this same job but at a different office, you know?

    Recently a job in a different department (more in line with what I’d like to do eventually) opened up, and I think I fulfill most of the requirements and would be a good fit with their team. Logistics aside, such as talking to my current manager and all that, is this just a bad idea overall? I mean… I’m not a huge fan of this company overall right now, so is it dumb to just move laterally? Or is it a good idea to see if that move changes my feelings about things, while also letting me maintain some stability?

    1. Catsaber*

      I think making the lateral move in your company is a good idea, because 1) stability 2) you can see if the work you’d be doing is actually something you want to do. But I would also job hunt outside of your company at the same time, because it’s no guarantee you’d get the position in the other department. But I don’t think it would hurt to apply. Good luck!

    2. Havarti*

      It depends how much a “not a huge fan” you are of the company. Provided they’re not, like, clubbing baby seals, I don’t think you lose anything by trying to move to another department. It may be things will improve enough that you don’t mind staying. Or maybe it’ll still suck and now you’ll know for sure this company isn’t a good fit, paving the way for a job hunt.

  167. Lucette Kensack*

    There’s not much downside to proceeding with the purchase with a delay (and opposed to walking away preemptively). The worst case is that the delay means they lose the house, right?

    (But yes, I agree. In almost any case — I’m thinking, like, you’re trying to buy back your childhood home or something where this is literally the only house that fits the bill — losing the house is a better outcome than screwing up your husband’s relationship with his employer.)

    1. Lucette Kensack*

      Whoops. Not sure why this posted here in addition to on the relevant thread.

  168. Close Bracket*

    There is a current situation developing at work which is so interesting to me. I’m watching two old white guys sideline a young white guy. I don’t think it’s on purpose, but this kind of this rarely is.

    For more detail, old white guy 1 (OWG1, a fellow) asked young white guy (YWG) to do some work and to get some info (do a literature search) from old white guy 2 (OWG2, a subject matter expert). OWG1 then asked OWG2 to put the results in something more formal than an email. OWG2 is now communicating his results exclusively to OWG1, ignoring YWG entirely. What should be happening here is that OWG2 should be giving his results to YWG, who needs them for his analysis, and explaining how he found the information as a form of mentoring.

    OWG1 and OWG2 are buddies, I might add. Friendly enough to invite each other over for dinner with the wives.

    This is how informal friendliness translates into working relationships and how those working relationships exclude other coworkers and negatively impact their development. This particular situation is fascinating to me bc there is such a pattern of non-white, non-guys getting excluded (this is well established and I am not going to debate that or offer support for that position). But here, age and marital status made a common bond that even shared white-guy-ness couldn’t break into.

    Lesson to everybody reading: 1) Deliver your results to the person who needs them 2) Be mindful of when doing something for someone might be an opportunity to share not just your subject matter expertise but also your process.

  169. Princess Deviant*

    I am still waiting for an ASD (autistic spectrum disorder) diagnosis, but things are moving along.

    I had a ‘meltdown’ in work yesterday. A client I was expecting to have a simple, straightforward call with reacted differently to what I was expecting, and was rude, difficult, and particularly contentious. It ended up creating loads more work for me. This is a part of my job sometimes so I have to deal with it professionally (like everyone!). I didn’t meltdown with the client but I did have a vent afterwards to the people in the office.

    I look back over my life and I see incidents when I got really stressed and agitated and lost my cool (not to anyone in particular but just venting out loud) and I guess I emotionally overreacted.

    I feel really ashamed of this, and I’m not sure how to deal with it. I like my colleagues a lot and I think we all work together well, and I definitely don’t want to alienate them and make them feel like they can’t work with me. And I absolutely don’t want to come across as being unprofessional. It’s important to me that I behave professionally.

    Does anyone have experience of this from either side? If so, what did you do?

    1. Close Bracket*

      Reacting badly when confronted with contentious situations and sometimes venting loudly and emotionally is part of the human condition that even non-autistic people do, so don’t beat yourself up over it.

      I recommend finding other behaviors to use to vent. Can you walk outside and pace? Can you visit the ladies’ room and do some deep breathing in a stall? Can you do something at your desk if leaving is not an option? Pick a behavior or several that you would like to perform, visualize using it, and remind yourself to use it every time you feel yourself about to lose your cool. It will take lots of practice to change.

      It’s tough when your traits are mild enough that you didn’t put it together until adulthood. So many autistic traits are not unique to autism that it can hard to tell whether you are acting a certain way bc you are autistic or because there are lots of ways to act and this is one of them. What I described above is a cognitive behavioral type of technique, and CBT has been shown to be effective for people with autism. Because of this, if there is something you want to change, a cognitive behavioral approach should be largely effective regardless of the underlying neurology driving it.

    2. Anon-Today*

      I have had this difficulty lately but I can’t attribute it to anything other than running out of fecks.

    3. Catwoman*

      It sounds like you’re being too hard on yourself! It’s ok to get frustrated. That said, I’m also sympathetic to feeling embarassed about “losing your cool” in front of coworkers.

      In cases where my emotions are running high, it helps me to try to be as matter-of-fact about the situation and my reaction to it as possible. Something like, “Wow, that call with Bob felt really frustrating. It was really stressful to expect a straightforward phone call only to have it unravel and become contentious.” It helps me to process emotions when I can say here is the situation or behavior I experienced, here is how it made me feel and just get it out. Focus on articulating your feelings or experiences as clearly as possible.

      This can also help you gain insight on how this situation might be able to go differently in the future. Being able to give and receive feedback is a critical professional skill and this kind of exercise helps you get better at that.

      What is not helpful is to make it personal or make assumptions about someone else: “Wow, Bob is such a jerk. That should have been easy and he made it so difficult. He must not like me or just be trying to make my life difficult.” Thoughts and talk like this just add fuel to your emotional fire and aren’t helpful at processing or resolving a situation. This is the kind of thing that is unprofessional.

      If you did have a more unprofessional kind of vent, you can follow up with your coworkers: “Hey, Susan. I just wanted to apologize to you for venting about Bob yesterday. I felt really frustrated in the moment and said some things I feel embarrassed about now. I’m working on how I respond to this kind of frustration and wanted you to know that I’m not proud of this kind of reaction.”

      1. Princess Deviant*

        Thanks so much for the really practical tips – I will definitely try them, and speak to my coworkers on Monday.

        1. JaneB*

          I work in academia, which makes it statistically likely that at least some of my colleagues are ASD – that said, venting to each other about difficult interactions with students or central admin or our bosses is very normal – it’s part of how we keep our interactions with the problem people professional and kind and productive. What matters is that it’s reciprocal (I rant at you today, we both know you can come rant at me tomorrow, we continue to respect the other as a professional & colleague) and we do talk about it, as in, “thanks for listening to me yesterday, that was just the last straw in a tough week/that was so unexpected it just got to me”, or “wow you sounded really calm and professional there, how are you feeling now?” or that particular favourite “I’m going to get a coffee, wanna come with me for the fresh air?” Or “….want me to bring you back chocolate?” – not everyone works like this, but a lot of us do, and actually acknowledging it and treating it as a human coping mechanism which is fine as long as it’s kept within the peer group and not inflicted on people who don’t get it/can’t take it (ie try not to do it it open office space for more than a sentence or two)… academia is kind of weird in many negative ways but I do find the mutual support & understanding of my colleagues a big plus!!

          1. Close Bracket*

            I work in academia, which makes it statistically likely that at least some of my colleagues are ASD

            It’s statistically likely that some of everybody’s colleagues have an autism spectrum condition (ASC). We show up in all fields and all nature of workplaces.

    4. LGC*

      So you got mad about a client being a jerk and you had a fit in (somewhat) private. I wouldn’t worry too much – it seems like a really common thing here is that people think they’re ruined forever because they’re not perfect, and…I hope your coworkers understand that you just had a really stressful thing happen. (And also, I hope that meltdowns aren’t a regular thing for you.)

      I also think that, if you’re like me, your shame is at least partly because you’ve done this before in your life. But I’m almost certain that your coworkers are NOT judging you for (or even aware of) your prior behavior.

      Anyway. I enjoy ranting, but it’s better with non work friends. So have a support group, or – better – a support group chat! Or even just write about how you’re feeling (profanities and all) in a journal or notes. That’s what’s worked better for me. Other than that, ask to step away in really heated situations (if your job allows you to).

      If you do get this difficult customer again and you feel like you can’t handle it, have them speak to your manager. They get paid more to put up with more garbage.

  170. DaniCalifornia*

    Applied for a job yesterday and got word today they want to interview. Picked a time Monday for a phone interview! It sounded kind of interesting, and def something I could do. It’s remote work which would be great for me. The only thing is it’s PT with a chance to go FT in August. The PT work hours sound great after 8 grueling tax seasons with no paid OT and workloads that keep increasing through out the year (seriously where has the “slow” season gone?!)

    But I’m not sure about pay. And there’s a chance the PT will stay PT. My spouse is excited but I know we’d have to change some things around. I’m trying to come up with questions for the interviewer about the potential FT thing later on. But from reading so many letters and open threads here it sometimes is about cutting pay for a better work life balance. Many of the other admin career jobs (AA, EA, OM) all seem like they would also be as busy as a CPA firm. I could work on finishing school if I were PT. I could have time to exercise and not ever do tax season again!

  171. Curious Cat*

    Anyone ever had perks taken away by a new CEO? We used to have half-day Fridays for the full year and now it’s been scaled back to Memorial Day – Labor Day. But of course now every Friday afternoon drags on and it feels like our CEO doesn’t trust us to be able to get our work done even though it was never a productivity problem? (it’s been confirmed to us this is mostly a visual thing; i.e. he likes seeing everyone in seats). How do you get over feeling like you’re not trusted and hurt that a really nice perk has gone away (and one that people plan childcare/elder care, appointments, vacation, etc. around)?

    1. WellRed*

      What really frustrates me about things like that is that, in addition to the morale hit (and the worry that it’s the start of more perk-cutting), you don’t get a bump in pay even though you are now technically working more hours (I know, I know, tha’ts just how it works). My company was just acquired by a company that offers 8 paid holidays, instead of the 10 we were used to. We will also lose some other freebie days. Grrr.

    2. MissDisplaced*

      Oh yes, and I ended up quitting over it.
      At exJob we got a new CEO, moved downtown (expensive to commute), got open office plan, and then the CEO decided to force everyone into the new office by rescinding WFH days under the guise of “building culture”
      Uh Huhhhh… Some culture that is.

  172. Atlantis*

    Not really a question, but just wanted to vent a little.

    I applied for a job in December, and then in late March/early April got a phone screen and quickly thereafter got invited to an in person interview. The job is 3 states away from where I currently live, and its connected to the government, so my flight/lodging was all on me. I’m just now finishing graduate school and this was my first interview for a job in my field. Turns out the interview had less than 10 questions, and then I spent 30 minutes taking a written assessment that I had prepared incorrectly for (I had spent the last few weeks brushing up on the field specific stuff I learned in school, whereas the assessment was on very basic fundamentals). I sent thank you notes afterwards, and then about a week later had to follow up with regard to some documentation I had to bring to the interview. I never received a response to that.

    I’m just super glad I found this site, because I would have felt way worse about this interview had I not been prepared to not hear anything back. Alison’s advice that hiring processes can sometimes take longer than expected is particularly applicable in my industry, so while it’s dissapointing it’s not had as bad of an impact on me as it could have been. Knowing it happens quite regularly to people has alleviated much of my anxiety. I’m also quite fortunate to be in a financial position to fund myself to get to these interviews, because I just received a request to interview for the same job in the same state, just in a different location. Hopefully this one goes well, or the first one gets back to me, but I’m not giving up on my applications by any means.

    Long story short, thanks to Alison and the rest of the AAM commenters, my job search has been way less anxiety inducing then it would have been. Thanks to all you who comment, for giving me a place to vent, to get advice, and on occasion, some entertainment too.

    Happy Friday!

  173. Raia*

    When HBAs are onsite and its been 6+ months since their last visit to HQ, is a team lunch the standarD. What does your team usually do?

  174. Anon 9*

    Any suggestions on figuring out what salary to ask for when your career has been as a fluid ‘jack of all trades’? I’ve spent about 10 years working in primarily administrative roles with progressively more responsibilities, ie Executive Assistant, Administrative Coordinator, Operations Manager…Many of these roles included supervisory duties and had a fairly wide variety of tasks. Currently, I have a smorgasbord of duties, from overseeing regional offices and planning all staff events to HR duties such as interviewing and onboarding/training new employees. I’m looking to change jobs and am not sure how to figure out my ‘market value’ in this type of role.

    I sincerely appreciate all thoughts/suggestions!!

  175. this might be a stupid question*

    Online job applications (city/county jobs) usually ask if applicants have a disability. I have a hearing impairment, but I’ve never requested job accommodations because of it. Normally, I respond no to that question, but I wonder if answering yes would help me get an interview. If I did respond yes, would the hiring manager then be able to ask me questions about my hearing impairment during the interview?

    1. pamela voorhees*

      I don’t think it would help get you an interview, but yeah, I’d imagine if you check yes then they’d ask something like “would you be able to perform the duties of this position or would you require accommodations.”

      1. this might be a stupid question*

        I think on the other side, I’m afraid it will make me less likely to get an interview.

    2. Unknown*

      I think there’s always a note about how the answers on gender/veteran status/race/disability are used to show the government that the company is welcoming and hiring a diverse group of applicants, and that it won’t be taken into consideration when making a hiring decision. I always assumed this meant the answers could be retrieved as statistics, but not associated with a specific applicant. Can someone confirm/refute?

    3. Blarg*

      Officially, that form (that also asks about ethnicity and gender, usually) stays in HR land and does not go to the hiring manager, or anyone else. It’s just supposed to be for overall stats. Does that mean it never happens? No. But also doesn’t mean if info was passed along that it would be inherently negative.

    4. G. Lefoux*

      Yeah, as a hiring manager I can’t even see the answers to those questions–only HR has the correct permissions to do so. As part of the interview I do give everyone, regardless of whether or not they disclose a disability, a full job description and ask them if it all seems like something they could do, with or without a reasonable accommodation. That’s all I need to know.

  176. Unknown*

    I was asked to provide two personal references (someone I haven’t worked with and am not related to) for a job I interviewed for. My problem is that I simply don’t spend time with other people outside of family. (I have a big family, and also have social anxiety, so it’s always been easier for me to hang out with family rather than force myself to volunteer, join clubs, whatever). I’m not sure what to do. Anyone have any advice? Saying I have no one who can recommend me will probably be interpreted as everyone hates me or I don’t get along with people, rather than just not being social. (I’ve always been fine being friendly and getting along with coworkers.)

    1. Havarti*

      Any neighbors you could use? Friend of the family? Bonus if they’ve known you since you were a baby.

      1. Unknown*

        I don’t talk to my neighbors, unfortunately. They keep to themselves, and I keep to myself. They would probably just say I’m “quiet.”

        We have family friends, but they’re basically people who I saw a few times a year as a child, then saw less and less over the years, and haven’t seen any of them in a couple of years. So I wouldn’t think they’d know me well enough to give any sort of useful information to an employer. I certainly wouldn’t know enough about them to be a reference if they needed one.

        1. Havarti*

          I’m assuming these type of references are just to make sure you’re not a serial killer? This where you need to call in favors and have them essentially lie. They can say without lying that they’ve known you for years. Heck, my parents were interviewed by the FBI when the neighbor’s son was looking for a job with them. We didn’t really hang out with them or anything but my parents were all “He’s a nice, quiet, young man. Never had any issues with him. We certainly think he’s a very honest, trustworthy fellow.” after the neighbor asked if they could be a reference.

      2. MoopySwarpet*

        Every big family I’ve ever known has had several pseudo family members. Even in my small-ish family, my siblings, parents, cousins, etc. have friends that were around enough I could coerce one of them into giving a reference if I needed. Several of them wouldn’t even need coerced.

    2. Seeking Second Childhood*

      I take it you’re not a regular at a Place O’Worship, because that’s one semi-expected place to get references.
      This one may sound odd but… are you a regular on first-name basis at a particular restaurant or coffee shop or gardening center? ie Any locally owned business other than a bar or liquor store? (I fear that could raise alcohol flags.) Sure they’re not CO-workers, but they’re working and you’re being friendly & getting along, right?
      I thought of this because we’ve been going to the same neighborhood restaurant for over 10 years and I’m planning to offer to be a recommendation to their teenager when she starts applying to colleges in a year or two. A lot of customers aren’t considerate to the people who work in the service industry, so if someone was given a good reference by a long-time “restaurant friend” I’d take it seriously.
      Your local librarian might be someone you’ve had intelligent conversations with, too.
      Think outside the box with family, too, do you have a good rapport with someone your cousin/sister/brother/niece has been dating? You’re not related to them really, are you?

      1. WellRed*

        I’ve also been contacted to give references like that for the occassional former roommate.

    4. Rez123*

      Maybe using in-laws? Like sisters husband or cousins girlfriend? While they are family, you could technically refer to them as friends since you are not (assuming) blood related? Asking a family memeber with a different last name? Former teachers/lecturers?

  177. WKRP*

    I know it’s late in the day, but I just needed to vent my frustrations. I’m relatively sure that my new(ish) hire has some kind of Executive Funtion disorder and it’s starting to drive me crazy. The way he processes information I give him has never been strategic. He takes each problem individually and has difficulty with more complex direction. The other day he received an email with a document from a client on a project that involves a lot of different people and requires some strategy. After a discussion about the project, wherein the information he provided didn’t exactly line up or lead to additional clarity — I asked him to send me what the client sent to him. He sent me the document in a separate, new email. I realized my mistake, that I needed the email thread to get context but wasn’t explicit enough. I asked him to send me the email he received. He sent me the initial introduction that was sent by another department. I then had to follow up and ask him for the email he received from the client with the attached document.

    I have a few thoughts. I honestly can’t tell if he’s trying to withhold information (because he also doesn’t like to admit when he doesn’t know something), if he doesn’t understand what I’m asking for and just guesses, or if he’s not paying attention to detail and just sends what’s handy. None of these possibilities is great. They’re beginning to wear on me because I now know that I will have to micromanage him and quite frankly, I’m not sure I have the bandwith to do that.

    1. Havarti*

      That’s rough. Is he young or new to the workforce? It may be that you’ll need to take a look at what exactly you’re telling him. Like in this case, if you had said “Can you please forward the whole email thread with the attached document from the client to me?” right from the get-go, what do you think he would have done? I’ve been on both ends of this where the directions given were vague enough that mistakes were made as a result. Also, have you tried talking to him about his processes for handling information and solving problems? Like have him run you through his logic to see where he’s struggling. Maybe he’s clueless. Maybe it’s brain weasels. Maybe he can be trained. Maybe not.

    2. ArtK*

      I don’t know that that’s an executive function issue or the fact that he’s just extremely literal. I’ve had people where I had to specify all the stuff that would be implicit for others. “Fix this bug here. Now, go look at these other 15 places where the same problem might exist” rather than “Fix this bug” or “Fix this bug and check for other places that might have the same problem.” They just weren’t able to extrapolate what was necessary.

    3. WKRP*

      He’s not terribly young, just turned the corner of 40, so we’re roughly the same age. And although he changed careers, he’s been doing this job or some version of it for 5 years. I wish I could believe he’s trainable, but I just don’t think he is. I shared a document I had put together and sent it to him as a template for how to format his own project document. Not only did he not use the same format (bullets, ordering, catagories), but he sent it to me in an email rather than a document. Then I resent the document. I got it back with some adjustments, but missing categories and the lists he sent were not in any discernable order. I can’t teach that, not only because I don’t have time, but also because some of these things are common sense to me. (If someone sends me a template that uses bullets, I use bullets and if I don’t use bullets I tell them why). I really don’t think I’m capable of being that explicit. Not because I don’t want to be, but because I wouldn’t even think of it.

      1. valentine*

        Unless you said to use that exact template, I would assume it was just a guide, especially if I didn’t like it. I would ask, though. You can sit him down and ask him what he would’ve needed in each case to deliver the proper email and to use the template. (Instead of asking why he didn’t, because he may make something up.)

        Are you not able to fire and/or replace him? Why is micromanaging the only option? If you’re not the one who contacted his references, see if this came up back then.

  178. qtipqueen*

    I have a wonderful window seat. And now my desk is being moved to a dark hallway. I am pretty bummed about this. Any tips on dealing?

    1. Seeking Second Childhood*

      Put in a request for natural-spectrum lighting NOW…before they move you. If you have had symptoms of SAD in the past, ask to be kept in mind for future moves because of that — and ask it in writing in case it comes back up.
      (Also, the coincidence of you & Lucette Kensack reporting on a move so close together has me hoping you’re not at the same company getting your desks switched.)
      Get permission for your own artwork — For me, posters help greatly.

      1. qtipqueen*

        The company is growing, and seating is an issue. I keep hearing rumors this is temporary, but it stinks!!

        1. Havarti*

          Oh dear, that’s awful. Will there be cubicles? You’ll definitely need lighting of some sort. If you can use headphones, maybe listening to sounds like water and birds chirping will help. I like myNoise for that. Go out for lunch or walks during breaks if possible.

    3. WellRed*

      Get a nice lamp, put up a poster and think of it as “cozy.” I am sorry this is happening, though.

  179. Lucette Kensack*

    Random: My division is moving (within our building). I just found out my new cube assignment and IT’S THE BEST CUBE IN THE BUILDING! Next to a huge widow, on an aisle that nobody uses, no other cube right behind me, far away from my colleague who listens to podcasts with no headphones, etc. <3 <3 <3

    1. Seeking Second Childhood*

      Here’s hoping that qtipqueen and Lucette Kensack don’t work at the same company…

      1. Lucette Kensack*

        Oh geez, I didn’t even see that before I posted! My apologies for accidental dickishness.

        (Nobody in my building is moving into a dark hallway, thank goodness! The worst case scenario is having a cube on the busy central aisle or being next to the rude coworker.)

    3. Rey*

      Congratulations on the new cube! (And can we nominate a vigilante to deal with coworkers who listen to podcasts with no headphones? That would drive me up a wall!)

  180. The Advanced Mysteries of the Copy Machine*

    I just need to vent briefly here. I work in a field where there are lots of pieces of paper involved (education), and I would be very surprised if any of my fellow teachers did not know how to use a copy machine at least a little bit.

    However, it appears that many of them have no idea that modern copy machines can also be used as scanners, because I regularly get people sending me cell phone photos of student work I need to grade (often taken off-center, keystoned, and/or with the shadow of their hand over part of the document) instead of scanning them. This just…doesn’t seem hard to me? I’m not sure if they actually don’t know that the school copy machines can also scan (they definitely can) or if they feel intimidated by using that feature, but why is this a thing that multiple people do?

    1. Amber Rose*

      I understand your frustration. Just briefly, let me tell you mine.

      Our copier is a thousand years old. The software it uses to scan things is no longer available anywhere on the internet for download. I have been moving it from computer to computer by using a thumb drive on which I copied every file and folder related to that program I could find. I can’t install the program, there’s no installer, so I have to open it direct from the files. Then, I have to run to the scanner, put in my document, go BACK to my computer, hope like hell the program connects to the scanner, hope like hell the document doesn’t jam the scanner, run back to retrieve my document, and then finally I am done.

      So while I also hate bad photos with weird shadows, I also kind of hate scanning. =P

      1. The Advanced Mysteries of the Copy Machine*

        See, in a situation like that I could definitely see it. We have some other pieces of tech that are in that kind of situation, and I can see why people try to avoid using them.

        However, I know all copy machines in the district are on a contract where they get replaced on a specific schedule, so I know every school has a nice, modern copier that can email scans to them. There’s a button for it right near the one that says “copy”.

        1. AnotherAlison*

          Sometimes you just don’t want to get up and walk all the way to the scanner. That’s my thought on why this is happening. Maybe they don’t know it bothers you if you haven’t mentioned it. Why walk all the way to the scanner when Advanced Mysteries is fine with my phone snapshot?

          1. The Advanced Mysteries of the Copy Machine*

            I suspect not wanting to walk all the way to scanner, or not planning ahead to get it scanned during a prep period, is a factor.

            I’m just not sure how much I can push back on this since it’s something they’re doing as a favor rather than a job duty, but it definitely makes my job harder to have to pull a bunch of phone photos out of an email, dump them into a photo-editing program to try and clean them up a bit so they’ll use less ink, dump the images into a layout program so I can have the multi-page document print double-sided and with everything right-side up and page-sized, and then print the thing rather than just hitting “print” on a scanned pdf.

            Today I further had one of these folks ask if he could just text the photos to my cell phone since he didn’t know how to get them from his phone to his work computer. I don’t even have a suitable cell phone for that on me at work, so I told him I couldn’t make that work and gave him a few other options, but I wish they’d just tell the student no and make them solve the problem some other way rather than give me all of this extra surprise formatting work to do.

            1. Mill Miker*

              If getting to the scanner is too much work, and they’re using smart phones to take the pictures, maybe you can at least recommend one of the various scanner apps (for example, I have CamScanner on my Android phone). That would at least help with the keystone and lighting issues.

              1. curly sue*

                I was about to suggest Camscanner as well. I’ve used it for a lot of different types of things and it’s not perfect, but it’s a whole lot better than the clunky, non-intuitive office scanner.

    2. The Advanced Mysteries of the Copy Machine*

      Just realized I forgot to include my actual question – given that these other teachers are, essentially, doing a favor for a student by dealing with this on their behalf (students are supposed to complete this work with me, but some of them have trouble getting to where I am and get another teacher at their location to supervise), how reasonable is it for me to push back on this and try to get the teachers to learn to use the actual scanner?

      1. Havarti*

        It sounds like these teachers are not on campus where you are? If they’re offsite somewhere, do you know for a fact their copiers can scan too? Because we switched to new copiers that could scan but hooking them up to the network took IT a while so not all of them had the capability. Is there a quick-start guide for scanning to make it less scary?

        1. Rainy days*

          Yeah, and also–school buildings are *huge* and copy machines are in high demand. When I taught it was several minutes to walk to the copy machine, then someone else might be using it, then several minutes to walk back. I only had 30 minutes for lunch (mostly spent supervising students eating lunch in my classroom), 5 minutes between classes, and one planning period per day in which I was supposed to write all of the materials for four different courses I was teaching. I wouldn’t have spend 10 minutes out of my day walking to a scanner when I could take a photo on my phone.

          1. The Advanced Mysteries of the Copy Machine*

            The problem is that it takes me a ton of extra time on my end if they send photos – I have to extract each photo from the email individually, run them through photo-editing software to try to get them to use less ink/not be keystoned/edit out the table woodgrain in the background surrounding the page/try to sharpen blurry parts, dump them into a document right-way-up and suitably-sized with all of the pages in the right order, and then try to print that mess so I can mark it by hand.

            I just wish these people wouldn’t agree to do this if they weren’t going to follow through properly and create so much extra work for me later. (I tell them in the initial request/confirmation that they need to either scan the work back to me or mail them using district mail. Even if copy machines are in high demand, district mail envelopes are less so.)

            I suspect my real problem is that I’m having to deal with entirely too many separate one-off people because this wasn’t centralized per-school the way I was told it would be, so I have entirely too many one-off artisanal work submissions from random teachers with one student each trickling in far after the due date and in weird formats rather than a nicely-organized stack from a single, trained point-of-contact at each site.

            1. valentine*

              Tell them you are streamlining the process and the options are now scanning (include copier instructions) or district mail (include instructions). If there are multiple copier models, maybe they can find the manuals online. I don’t get how it’s a favor if it’s something the student needs or why it’s okay for them to miss the deadline, but anything that negatively impacts you, either you can set the standard or you can discuss with your supervisor that you need to implement and hold standards because it’s costing you x hours and delaying other work, etc.

              Is there no better way to coordinate this? Can each school designate a liaison who gathers and scans and emails you?

              1. The Advanced Mysteries of the Copy Machine*

                The options have always been (a) scan the tests back to me or (b) send them through district mail. I have never suggested cell phone photos as a possible solution.

                We were supposed to have those liaisons, but they weren’t funded. (Their job would have also included a bunch of other things other than chasing down and scanning my pieces of paper, but the plan was for not-funded-position-X to be the person I’d contact at each school and they’d take it from there. Trying to work around that not being funded has been a major source of stress for me this year, and next year is not looking any better.)

                It’s a favor because the student (and parent!) is told, in writing, at the start of the term that they need to take these exams with me at [site]. Alternately, if they have a local staff member who can proctor they can take the exams with them. The problem is, students find teachers who are willing to do them a favor (because they don’t want the student to fail) but who don’t think about whether or not they actually have the time and brainpower to devote to test proctoring, so it then gets done late and in half-baked ways. (The current set of tests involved one delivered by mail over 2 weeks late with a page missing, even though all of my tests have page x of y footers, and one delivered electronically with a thankfully-clothed unintentional crotch shot because they aimed their phone badly at the test they had on their lap while using their scanner/camera/whatever app.)

                If I try to add formality and structure to the process, I will get a bunch of people telling me that I’m not focused on finding ways for students to succeed and that I need to be more flexible.

        2. The Advanced Mysteries of the Copy Machine*

          I know our new copiers won’t work unless they are hooked up to the network, so I’m sure that part has happened.

          I don’t know if there’s a quick-start guide. I suppose I can look.

      2. Humble Schoolmarm*

        I try and balance out some fairly common descriptors (has pierced ears, is an only child, likes an incredibly popular sports team for my area) with more random, but still not hugely rare things (has met a celebrity or has never had a cavity). The nice thing about People Bingo or People Scavenger Hunts is if there is something that doesn’t apply to anyone it can still spark some getting to know you conversations (no one has gone on a sailboat ride but Bob has been up in a hot air balloon and Susan is a competitive dragon boat racer).

        1. Humble Schoolmarm*

          Well that was a nesting fail!
          Are you all in the same building? Is there any chance you can convince them to hand you the paper copy at lunch or after school?
          I know that signs are not always the best idea but a sign near the copier with a title of something like ‘Teacher time-saver” and step by step scanning instructions might work.

          1. The Advanced Mysteries of the Copy Machine*

            No, they’re at different locations than I am, and it’s more than 5 different locations so it’s not practical for me to travel to all of them and collect papers myself. They have the option of sending me the papers using the district mail or scanning them to me, but it appears how to use the district mail is also kind of mysterious to a lot of teachers. (To be fair, I don’t know that any teaching job I’ve had has ever trained me in how to use district mail or even alerted me to its existence. It’s just something I somehow always knew was available, so maybe it’s not something everyone else is comfortable with since I have more of an office background than a lot of teachers. Papers go in the envelope, name goes on the envelope, envelope goes in the labelled mail basket that is usually near everyone’s inbox seems pretty straightforward to me, though.)

    3. Atlantis*

      I’m not sure about what kind of assignments you are dealing with (although I am guessing that you’re dealing with younger students (middle/high school)), but is it something you could have the students submit to the teachers in a document form (pdf, word, etc) that they can then forward to you, or even just submit directly to you instead? Could the students themselves even be the ones who scan it instead?

      I will agree with others that you can’t necessarily assume that the teachers all have equal access to the copier and that they are all choosing to take photos just because they don’t want to walk there or because they don’t plan their periods correctly. My dad was a teacher at my high school, and the copier machine was either in constant use, or had a tendency to break down. The copiers at my current school all have scanners, but the one in my department office isn’t connected to the network, so anytime I scan I have to bring a flash drive to scan it to. The flash drives will sometimes just get rejected, turning a quick scan into a half hour trial and error session that sometimes ends with a call to IT. Don’t even get me started on our fax machine.

      I would say if at all possible you may want to try changing the types of assignments to ones that can be electronically transferred in the first place by the student. I understand completely if that’s not the case (ie written exams they took) but whatever you can do might make life easier.

      1. The Advanced Mysteries of the Copy Machine*

        Yeah, these are exams that need to be proctored, which is the entire reason to have a extra teacher in the middle of the process to start with rather than have the student turn the assignment in directly. They’re supposed to take the exams with me, but sometimes transportation to my site is a hardship so they ask a teacher at their regular site to serve as test proctor instead. Making the exams electronic would mean these proctors would have to closely watch the student’s screen to make sure students weren’t looking up answers (yes, there is software for this sort of thing and, no, our district will not spend money on it), and would mean that the teachers would have to have a suitable computer in their room for the student to use.

        1. Atlantis*

          I saw your response to someone else above, and you said there are at least 5 different locations that the teachers are at. Is there any way you could possibly coordinate with either the school administration at each site, or with the teachers who get asked to proctor themselves to get a single designated proctor for all the students at that site?

          So for example, you start the semester/year by informing the students about the testing requirements, and that if getting to the site would be a major hardship, they need get in touch with you. When those students do touch base with you, you can give them a specific name of a teacher who you’ve already talked to and has agreed to be a proctor for exams. You can give the teacher the dates of all exams, so they can pre-plan potential proctoring. They can then set their own requirements along with yours (ie, they will set aside one date/time for proctoring your exam for all students who request that option at this school). If the student can’t make that date/time, they either must coordinate with that teacher for an alternative, or find a way to make it to your site.

          That may not work for you, but it might help streamline everything just a little bit more, especially if there is a teacher at each location who tends to be asked to proctor more often, (or who actually sends the documents in the format you need). In that way, you might be able to streamline getting the results in a format you need, where the teacher could just drop all the exams they have at once in an envelope to you, or scan them all at once and forward them to you.

          1. The Advanced Mysteries of the Copy Machine*

            This was supposed to happen, but that position was lost to budget cuts. Instead, it’s basically supposed to be that students travel to me, but that of course isn’t actually practical for a lot of them and since I’m not given any single point of contact or allowed to fish for one, all I can suggest to students is that maybe they know a teacher who would do it for them…the whole situation is really dysfunctional because of a couple of things that changed at the same time as each other, most of them based on this “such-and-such position will do that” idea that was then not funded.

            I’m hopeful that I’ll be allowed to put more structures into place for next year, but it’s one of those weird issues with a lot of different people trying to get different things out of the same system.

    4. Anono-me*

      If you’re sending these exams to the proctoring teacher via the district Mail system, would it be possible to include a district mail “return envelope”? That way all the proctoring teacher has to do is watch the kid take the test ,then put the test in the prepared envelope and drop it in the internal mail bin.

      1. The Advanced Mysteries of the Copy Machine*

        I usually send the exams by email as a pdf. I suppose I could start sending them all by mail instead, but that adds a several-day delay between the student’s proctor requesting the exam and the exam being delivered since our internal mail system does not deliver every day. (This wouldn’t be an issue if students followed directions about when they needed to have proctors arranged by, but that’s true of many things students do and don’t do.)

    5. Unacademic*

      If they’re currently sending you photos, could you tell them you can only accept the work in pdf format?

  181. heatherskib*

    I just started a new job where most of us are in offices (with windows even) and everything seems to be great, except the walls are very thin and this is a very collaborative crew. Even with the door closed I can clearly hear the conference call a coworker is on on one side and the typing of another on the other side.
    Any ideas on how to mask or quiet the sound?

      1. heatherskib*

        I can, but I think that will mostly add to the noise, and my shared walls are with pretty important scientists that I don’t want to disturb.

    2. MoopySwarpet*

      If you don’t have any artwork on the walls, if it’s allowed, that might help with the echo of it. Otherwise, the standard headphone, low music, fan, white noise, etc.

      1. heatherskib*

        They are. I added a large painting where I had room. I’m thinking some plants and a fountain might help to buffer noise and add ambient noise. I may just add a noise machine too.

        1. Anono-me*

          Can you do a large tapestry, fabric art piece or even a beautiful quilt hanging? Those will really absorb the sound.

  182. Boba tea*

    how do you deal with that one annoying coworker who never shuts up? i got one and sometimes it drives me crazy. it’s like silence hurts him or something cause he will talk and talk and ask the most random question just to keep talking. thankfully i’ve expressed before that i dont take any of that well so he stayed away from me and another female coworker A. but coworker B and C who are both male are frequently subjected to these uninvited conversations. i caught C going uhmm uh yeah for like 2 hours while the annoying talker went on and on. i noticed he doesnt take social cues well ( keep talking to people even when they look visibly tired and sleepy, interrupting conversation, asking people who speak another languge to speak in English) this guy is the youngest member. i feel like no one ever tells him how annoying it is. we’re in the same room so though im not in the conversation, i hear all of it. it doesnt help that his voice are very loud that i can hear it through my earphones so there’s no way to escape. we told him and he ll tone it down then start again. im leaving this job soon so i wont have to deal with hi but i dread meeting someone like this along the way in a more professional setting. how do you deal with this? is telling the person directly an okay thing to do or we just have to suck it up?

    1. Auntie Social*

      “Murray, I gotta finish this, I’ll talk to you tomorrow. And listen, are YOU caught up?”

      1. valentine*

        IM or email him the same reminder to lower his voice each time. Maybe just “Gentle reminder: Please lower your voice.” The first time, tell him you’ll be doing this. You shouldn’t have to monitor him, but no one’s doing anything, so this may annoy you less.

    2. LCL*

      Yeah, it seems like sometimes people have 2 work modes, sullen silence or nonstop talking. Can’t we all meet in the middle somewhere? Seriously, if he is a major talker he knows it. Tell him you are going to stop talking and are going to start working now. Telling him he is being annoying will get you nowhere.

    3. ..Kat..*

      It sounds as if this much conversation isn’t all about work. So, tell him his loud conversation is making it hard for you to concentrate on work, so please be quiet or take his conversation elsewhere.

  183. Demoralized*

    Several months ago I was asked to provide feedback on another employee who used to be my manager. I was told the conversation would be “confidential” but a few weeks later, senior leadership asked if they could share my feedback with this person and mention me by name. This person was a terrible manager who took things very personally and would regularly take out negative emotions on us employees. Even though I no longer report to them, I did not want him to know I provided critical feedback on him as it would lead me to feel really uncomfortable, given that we work in a small office. I declined the request and senior leadership said they would respect my wishes…and then last week, it came up in my performance review! My manager said senior leadership is unhappy that I declined their request, and sees it as evidence that I lack “courage” in the workplace. She said I shouldn’t have felt uncomfortable because I no longer report to him. I overall have a good relationship with my manager, and she also said in my review that they think I do good work and want to know how they can keep me at the organization. I feel sick to my stomach and demoralized by this whole feedback fiasco. Should I bother having a follow-up conversation with her or just quietly try to move on to a new job?

    2. Jules the 3rd*

      I doubt they’ll be very open to hearing, ‘I didn’t want to share feedback because I was worried about retaliation. I think that concern was justified since ‘senior leadership’ just retaliated against me in my performance review for not wanting to share feedback. How can we move forward from this?’

      Definitely never share honest negative feedback with anyone there again. Give it a month, then decide if this is a reason to job hunt, or if you can disassociate yourself emotionally from the Office Drama enough to stay.

    3. Triplestep*

      Well, it’s kind of a no-brainer but one way to keep you happy enough to stay is not to characterize you as lacking courage in the workplace. You may have a good relationship with your manager, but she’s the one who decided to make this part of your review. I agree that you should decide if you want to still work at this organization – there’s no harm in just dusting off your resume and quietly searching. But if you leave, you should mention this as the reason in your exit interview and/or resignation.

    4. The New Wanderer*

      It’s crazy that your feedback on this person was “they regularly take out negative emotions on employees” and senior leadership is surprised you didn’t want your name given to him as the source of that particular feedback.

      Use your courage to find a new job that isn’t trying to sabotage you, and have the follow-up conversation about violating confidentiality and disregarding the risk of retaliation in your exit interview. Or don’t since it would probably go nowhere.

    5. Argh!*

      They’re the ones who lack courage if they’re not willing to deliver anonymous feedback themselves! What jerks! (But at least they honored your wishes)

  184. Part-Timer*

    One of my part-time jobs is going to be moving to almost full-time sometime this summer….but the exact timing is uncertain. I will need to leave one of my other part-time jobs and it will likely take my supervisor more than 2 weeks to find a replacement because of my location and the nature of the work.

    Should I give my boss a heads up that I will be leaving at an indeterminate time in the next 2 months and that they should start looking for my replacement? Psychologically I am ready to move on from this job, but I don’t know if it is too early to give notice if I don’t have an end date yet.

    1. Rey*

      I wouldn’t talk to the boss yet, given that you don’t have an end date yet and you don’t want to be pushed out before you’re ready. Lots of businesses would prefer to have more than two weeks notice (because it can be difficult to hire a replacement) but that’s the cost of doing business.

      1. Part-Timer*

        I should perhaps add that this is a small non-profit and that is headquartered two states away from where I work….so finding a replacement requires that my boss travel to my state for to interview local candidates (or, I suppose, just rely on phone/Skype interviews….).

        Knowing that, should I still wait?

        1. Rey*

          I would still wait. My reasoning for not giving notice yet is because your responsibility in this case is to your own interests and needs. I might be reading too much into this, but it sounds like you’re a very accommodating person who might be putting your job’s needs above your own. I’m also assuming that your life is really busy because you’re working at least two part-time jobs. It sounds like you’re very concerned about leaving your job in a lurch, and how inconvenient it is to them, but NONE of that is your problem. All of the reasons that you mention for giving more than two weeks notice are A) not your problem and B) not in your control.

          So I want to reframe this and ask you some questions for you to consider as you make this decision. You are only responsible for your own interests, so your most desirable date to stop working this job is the only thing you have to consider when putting in your two weeks notice.
          A) Does your paycheck have to be back-to-back to pay your bills? Or could you quit this job sooner and still cover everything?
          B) Do you need a couple of days to handle life logistics before your other job goes full-time? Are there any routine tasks or appointments that you have put off because you were too busy working? Dentist? Therapist? Salon? Drivers license? Oil change? What physical things do you need for managing your life?
          C) Do you need a couple of days to handle personal life before your other job goes full-time? Do you want to make plans to see a friend (or 3)? Do you want a day (or 3) to work on hobbies, clean your house, go to the movies, sit at home and do nothing? What mental health needs do you have right now?

          You don’t need to feel even a split second of shame or guilt for giving two weeks notice when you are ready to leave and sticking to it. Your boss is being paid more money than you because it is THEIR responsibility to handle travel, interviews, etc. If your business wanted you to handle all of this, they would be paying you more, giving you a different title, etc.

          1. Part-Timer*

            Thanks — you certainly hit the nail on the head as far as my personality type….my psychologist and I talk pretty frequently about me worrying too much about everyone’s else’s needs….

            These are good questions and I will consider them when making a decision. Overall, my instinct is to still to give as much notice as possible….but I recognize that that might be kind of a pathology on my part and maybe I need to think about this more objectively and less emotionally….

    2. Close Bracket*

      > Should I give my boss a heads up that I will be leaving at an indeterminate time in the next 2 months and that they should start looking for my replacement?

      Nope. Give them two weeks notice when you have a firm date. It’s their problem to solve succession plans, not yours.

      1. Part-Timer*

        I understand that it is their problem, but it honestly feels weird to just sit on this information, knowing that they could be making plans and perhaps with enough time I could even be helping them with interviewing and training a replacement….(I am the only person in the organization who works in this state).

    3. Alianora*

      Are you willing to risk being pushed out early and having a brief period of unemployment in between jobs? If yes, then go ahead and tell your supervisor. If not, wait until you have a concrete end date and it’s two weeks out.

      1. Part-Timer*

        I think it is fairly unlikely that they could push me out all that much earlier than whenever I would leave. It will take them awhile to hire someone and if they needed me to help train that person and get them up to speed (which they probably would, since nobody else is lives/works in this region except me), they wouldn’t be able to benefit from that if they pushed me out.

        1. Alianora*

          Then if you’re fairly sure that won’t happen, and you’re willing to take on the small chance that it will, you might as well go for it. Sounds like you want to. But there’s no obligation, as Close Bracket said.

    4. That Girl From Quinn's House*

      What sort of part-time job(s) are they? With many part-time jobs, it’s pretty common for people to come and go, especially based on season or semester. Do other people give advanced notice, or would they not take that well? Do you plan on going back when the summer is over?

      1. Part-Timer*

        It is a job where I am the local coordinator for a national organization. So I am the only employee in my state.

        I only know three other people in the organization, and I know of nobody who has left, so I don’t know how it would normally be handled.

        I am not planning on returning to the position.

        1. valentine*

          You never know what may happen. The full-time plans may fall through and you don’t want to be punished for thoughtfulness and generosity. Prioritize yourself and give them two weeks when you know for sure.

    5. WellRed*

      I think you, personally, would feel better giving more notice. It seems unlikely they’d dump you.

    6. Argh!*

      As my grandmother would say, don’t count your chickens before they’re hatched.

  185. Mill Miker*

    I could really use some advice on getting my career back on track.

    I originally went to school for Skill A. I’m good at Skill A, I enjoy Skill A. To get even better at Skill A, I learned Skill B, which is often the step before Skill A. I’m competent at Skill B, but I really don’t enjoy doing it for long stretches.

    People who actually specialize in Skill B are hard to come by, and make more than those who specialize in Skill A. Skill A is also more forgiving, and it’s possible to do a very poor job that looks fine on the surface. My career so far has been a steady string of companies hiring me for Skill A, and then finding out I can do Skill B, and shifting my workload in that direction, only having me do Skill A when everyone else is stumped. I spend most 1-on-1s and job interviews explaining my goals of doing Skill A and not Skill B, yet still end up being assigned only Skill B tasks, and then dealing with their surprise when I quit.

    At my new current job, I made it very clear during the interview process that I was leaving my last job to get away from Skill B, and I made very very sure that this is a company that does Skill C as an alternative to Skill B, has no active projects requiring Skill B, and are working to have anything requiring Skill B phased out by the end of the year. Great! And then I start and find out that they actually do have one new project that needs Skill B, it is the most important project, and it is not being replaced any time soon. They also have no one on staff who knows Skill B, and the project is in bad shape but cannot be replace or allowed to fail. So guess what? I’ve been exclusively doing Skill B for the last 3 months.

    I now have a resume showing 7 years of work almost exclusively in a role I never wanted, and still don’t want. If I didn’t dislike the work so much, I could make significantly more money by actually intentionally focusing on it.

    How do I get into the kind of job I want (which I am very qualified for), when the universe seems hell-bent on keeping me in a role I really can’t stand?

    1. Close Bracket*

      First, reiterate to your current company that you left your last job to get away from skill B, that you came there to do skill C, and that not doing skill B is important enough to you that you will leave again to get away from it. Pick your wording carefully, I don’t have good scripts for this.

      Tell them that you want to get the amount of your time you do skill B to be lower than x, where x is actually much lower than you could tolerate. Then ask for a time line and some concrete steps to get you to spending at least 1-x percent of your time on skill C.

      Then, and this will be very hard with 7 years of B on your resume, rewrite your resume to down play everything you did with B and up play everything you have done with A and C. In fact, if you can write what you did without ever mentioning B, do that. It might take some creative writing, and people might still infer that you used B, but do it anyway. For example, I have “used Matlab to” all over my resume. I could just state what I accomplished without mentioning Matlab at all but by saying “calculated” instead. This will not be a perfect analogy for you, but try to think flexibly to see where you could eliminate direct references to B.

      Start looking to performance reviews and write up what you have done for the year in the same way- downplay B and emphasize C.

    2. MissDisplaced*

      Oh no, sounds like they pulled a bait and switch. Can’t you train someone to do the project with Skill B so it’s off your plate? Can you just leave Skill B off your resume entirely next time?

      I have some similar issues in that I still get pulled into graphic design because I can do it good, fast and cheap, even though I’ve moved far, far beyond being a designer.

    3. LQ*

      How much of Skill B can you leave off your resume?

      I have a secret skill that gets used sometimes. I never talk about this skill as this skill. If I have to I will talk about the parts of the skill that are much more like the work I want to do. But not the skill itself.

      Lets say the secret skill is event planning. But I want to bet a web developer.
      I will talk about a website I built for an event, but I will NOT say I was the planner.
      I may talk about managing to get diverse opinions detailed and build the website based on the detailed requirements gathered from the team. I will not say that was because I lead the team and getting all those opinions on the same page was for the event first and foremost.

      So can you talk about the parts of Skill B that are relevant to Skill A, but not that you actually do B?

    4. ..Kat..*

      That is really annoying. Wish I had an answer.

      Can you tell them skill b demands higher pay? So you are at least better paid while you look for new job?

    5. Argh!*

      That’s actually a very good story for a job interview: I am applying for this job because I prefer role A. Is there a company that truly doesn’t need role B? That would be one to aim for.

  186. Chocolate Teapot*

    With the European Parliament elections scheduled for next week, I have been offered the chance to work in a polling station on election day. I have never done this before, and it isn’t a political thing, (the whole point is that polling staff are neutral) but I thought it might be something extra to add to my CV.

    Has anyone else done this type of work before? What were your experiences?

    1. Rez123*

      Just casted my vote yesterday!

      I don’t have personal experience but my friend has done this quite a few times. She says it is a tiring day, but it’s also very fun to do something totally different.. I would do it. Could be good experience and interesting to see the behind the scenes stuff.

      1. valentine*

        Give it a shot. If it’s like the US, there’s training and you could always drop out after that, if it’s not for you.

  187. sparty07*

    It may be too late in the day for this, but I want to ask the commentariate a couple questions.
    It’s time for me to find a new FA as my current one put in their notice. It’s been awhile since I last had to interview and would like to refresh my questions. Do you have any that you have been asked recently that you thought were good/do you have any questions that you believe really helps you understand a person?

    How do you analyze an internal candidate who doesn’t have all the current skills, but is (according to manager/people who have worked with them) said to be an exceptionally fast learner of complex processes in their current department and would be willing to take the classes needed to better understand the job (i.e accounting basics)?

    1. LQ*

      For internal folks can you have them work with you on a temporary/single project basis? You wouldn’t learn everything, but you could test them out with a project to see if they would be a good fit. Especially if people are willing to let folks move around like that, I highly recommend a give it a shot project.

  188. Tired Muslim*

    Hi all –

    It is Ramadan! Which means no food and water for 18 hours. And that is making me… not the best worker, after 3 pm. I’m trying to do my job and not mess around, but my brain just doesn’t work. It’s the first 2 weeks of a new internship – how do I do an okay job? Should I ask for an accomodation?

    1. The cat's pajamas*

      I don’t think you need an accommodation unless you are having trouble getting your work done. If your workplace seems open to diversity, you might want to let your boss know. I once managed a seasonal part timer who I guessed was fasting, because they fell asleep at their desk a few times, but they got the work done. I didn’t know they couldn’t even have water, and I kept offering it to them, and felt awful when I found out later from another friend who fasts. It was a particularly warm year, and I was also worried about their health. A quick heads up would have helped me a lot, but again, we were in a friendly office with lots of diversity, so no big deal there. I recognize it’s not safe everywhere, but I wish it was.

    3. Rez123*

      Where I’m from the sun goes down only for a few hours during summer and if we go for further up north then it doesnt go down at all. The Muslim community in here follow the sunrise and sunset times of Mecca.
      My mother in law is not exactly the most observant Muslim so she has a snack (if she decided to do Ramadan) and then then does a clencing or prayer before dinner.

      I think talking to your boss and asking for accomofdation depends on the type of internship this is and type of work environment. If this is just a mandatory part of your education for 6 weeks and then you leave and never see them again or internship that hopefully turns into a job offer? Is your office diverse? How do they take the daily prayer breaks? How significantly is it affecting your performance? One option is to talk to the boss and see that they say in a “by the way” type of way and maybe they can offer a solution.

    4. Marion Q*

      Hi there fellow Muslim! Is it possible to do the most demanding tasks earlier in the day, where you can still focus? Are there any physical tricks that can help you to refocus? I find getting up and taking a short walk (like from my desk to the toilet and back) helps refresh my mind and makes me able to focus on work again.

      I don’t think you should ask for accommodation, but maybe mention in passing that you’re fasting, and see how people react?

    5. Argh!*

      I don’t know much about Ramadan but I know about blood sugar. Have you tested your glucose levels when you’re feeling poorly? The liver is supposed to take over and supply glucagon when you’re not eating, but if your body isn’t keeping everything in balance your health can suffer. Is there an exception to the fast for low blood sugar? There are sugar tablets that diabetics can take when they’re hypoglycemic. Even though it’s something you eat, would it be considered food according to your rules? Or would it be considered medicine? In most places you can buy a test kit & the sugar tablets without a prescription, so if it would be permissible, that might be something to try.

      I have to eat small meals every three hours, or at most four hours, or I really can’t function. I can’t imagine going for 18 hours!

      1. valentine*

        I think the idea is some fasting is better than none and there are exceptions for medical conditions, which brain not working when needed is. Just as it’d be okay to have food or drink with medication, if needed, I expect it’s okay, Tired Muslim, to have a granola bar or something at 3 to get through your shift so you meet your internship goals. If it were a regular job, I would say ask for accommodations, because you have so many unaffected workdays. But I am thinking the internship rules are strict and, other than shifting the hours earlier or just not working late afternoon, what would the accommodations be?

  189. LQ*

    In…I’m tired at my job because of folks who really are horrible at their jobs…today:
    Project Manager: Hey, LQ why do you spend so much time on application stuff when it takes away from infrastructure work?
    Me: Application stuff IS my job. Infrastructure is the work I do because folks don’t do their jobs.
    PM: ….oooOOOOooo….

    I try hard to not let some folks (this PM is one of them) who are negative about the shitty people around us make me exhausted with despair. Some people are really lovely. A lot of people would do better if they had good leadership. But a lot of them are really bad at their jobs. And while I know it and it impacts me I don’t want to let it sour my whole view. How do you guard against a wave of negativity from someone else when it is also in you?

  190. Rexie*

    Earlier this week there was a questions about not putting a degree on the CV and it got me thinking. I’m trying to find a job in the UK and I found a few good ones that are more junior than what I’m doing now. Imagine sourcing specialist applying for sourcing assistant or junior sourcing officer. I recently got my masters and then I got a promotion and a fancy new title that in the UK system is considered 1-2 bands above the ones I’m trying to get. Should I leave my masters degree off and put the previous title on the form? The problem is that my masters is significantly more relevant than my bachelors and I’d imagine the new title would come up with references or something? I’m happy to give reasons for applying in my cover letter.

    Is this a non issue and I can just use my up to date information or should I consider leaving out information? I’m already at a disadvantage due to various factors so I don’t want my application add to that.

    1. ..Kat..*

      Does the UK use cover letters? If so, that is a great place to talk about why you are a good fit for the job. And why the job is one that you want to stay in (as opposed to leaving soon).

      Good luck.

      1. Rexie*

        Yes, definitely I have it on the cover letter or in the box of the form if there is no actual cover letter. The key is to not get rejected before they actually get to the cover letter.

        1. ..Kat..*

          Given that the masters degree is more applicable to the job that you want, I am not sure if it is better to include it or leave it out. I lean towards including it on your CV, but not including your promotion.

  191. JN*

    I’m coming back from being unemployed for a year and am not sure how to discuss it on my resume or cover letter, so I’m looking for a bit of advice! After wrapping up graduate studies & my last internship, I moved to a different country for a year to take immersive language studies (think 40 hours a week w/ other random cultural activities). I don’t have a certificate or anything associated with it & am now not quite sure how to discuss my improved language skills.

    1. OrangeFloss*

      I think you covered it. “I had the opportunity to live in and study the language for a year. I learned a lot and now I’m looking forward to being back in and jump into the workforce.”

      If the language you learned is pretty common in your region, all the better. E.g. Lived in Argentina and learned Spanish and you’re now in a boarder or agricultural state. Less useful if you lived in Cambodia and are now in Kansas…

  192. Fluffy Poodle*

    I started a new job recently, and am back in a team of all introverts. I’m ok with this as I’m introverted myself, but have had to fake being extroverted so much at my last few jobs that I’m more of an extr”a”vert. I’m mostly introverted, and still need recharge time but am also ok with socializing or making small talk in moderation. My day to day work is mostly ok, but it’s difficult to get to know my colleagues as I don’t want to bother them and asking some getting to know you questions in email or internal messaging isn’t going to work when we’re all busy.

    I searched for letters on this but they are all from the manager side. These are colleagues who I don’t manage but need to work on projects with. Any ideas? I’ve had some luck with my colleagues one on one, but I’m still trying to build trust. We’re not a go get lunch or coffee together kind of culture, which is what I’d usually do.

    1. LQ*

      For a group like that honestly one of the best ways to build good trust is to do good work together/with them/for them. Part of the trust you’re building isn’t just doing good work, but do good work unobtrusively so that I can go do the rest of my life too.

      You may want to pick up some outside work socializing as well, shifting from a heavy extrovert environment to a heavy introvert environment can make your head spin. So post work happy hour groups are good, or networking groups. Even if you don’t think of yourself as someone who does that now might be the time to try a bit.

  193. Amethyst*

    Separate question:

    I asked this in last week’s open thread but didn’t get a lot of feedback, so I’m hoping I will now.

    I’m a bit demoralized with my job hunt, y’all. I was offered a job, but it was withdrawn due to some things that happened on their end (unrelated to me). I’ve got a lot of experience that’s pretty all over the map & I don’t know how to parlay it into a desk job where I have limited interaction with people (coworkers are fine; client-facing, no).

    In a nutshell, I’ve:
    Web admin’d a celebrity’s fan website for a few years
    Copyedited 4 books by 3 different authors
    15 years experience in retail/customer service, & cash handling
    2.5 years in an AR position
    Taught classes in a language I’m fluent in on volunteer basis (I am not a teacher)
    Have an AAS & am a Reiki Master Teacher

    I have 2 different ADA-covered disabilities: one that affects hearing & another that makes it clear that I need to do desk jobs from now on. Standing for long periods of time is becoming…not an option, & that’s my current temporary job at the moment.

    What can I turn all my experience into? I’m sick & tired of retail, & I no longer have much patience for dealing with customers & clients like I used to. I need a 9-5, M-F job. Not contract or freelance work.

    1. LQ*

      Honestly, you’re likely going to have a hard time getting away from customer and clients. Nearly every job has internal or external customer or clients (or there is no reason for the work). Plus reading your list there’s a lot of space for customer service work. (Some of which can be 9-5(ish) M-F.)

      A couple of options depending on your language fluency and the “desirability” of the language would be doing customer service in the second language. This can really shift what you’re doing and that second language can make a big difference in getting work. (It also depends on if you can dip into the world of translation here, especially knowing that you have a disability that affects hearing.)

      Reading your list I also think that you might do well as a sort of “Office Manager” role at a fairly small company. The role is usually pretty broad and often includes some accountingish work, procurement, physical maintenance (not that you would do that, but be on the look out, but that you’d be in charge of making sure it gets done), more “secretarial” work like answering the phones and triaging people who come in. It’s a kind of role that can vary widely from company to company, but I would say benefits from the range of skills you have. Smaller companies make the office managers do more, but are also more willing to train someone on the dozen things that you’ll only do a tiny bit. It’s good variety of work usually, and depending on where your skills like you may be able to bring in house some things (like maintaining a website for a small not web centered company) and hire out for other things (whatever doesn’t make sense for you). I’d look around for businesses that are physical but need someone to sort of push papers and do miscellaneous stuff for them. Landscaping, construction, roofers and the like…You’ll still have customers but mostly the people in the field will deal with them. And my experience has been they are pretty willing to take a chance on someone without a degree.

      Good luck!

    2. NespressoCosi*

      Reading through this I was thinking some sort of office administration position which would be mainly desk work? If you look for a few job ads in that area and make a list of what they are looking for, then you could go through your experience and pick out anything related, and you will get an idea of how you can emphasise those skills in your CV. For example with web admin, copy editing, accounts receivable, and customer service experience I would think those could all be really useful for many office administration jobs.

      With your web admin experience and your second language, I also wondered about looking for online moderation jobs in the second language. I keep an eye on online moderation jobs because it’s one of the things I do and there are often postings requiring fluency in languages other than English. Some them may be work from home though.

  194. Eye roller??*

    I was told by my boss today that someone, unnamed to me, told him that I “rolled my eyes” in a weekly meeting. I certainly did not! I would never do something like that. I am a young woman who works primarily with older men and this feels either sexist or misinterpreted. I am very uncomfortable with people thinking this about me, but obviously I don’t know who said it and he is not telling me.

    1. Auntie Social*

      So why isn’t YOUR boss giving YOU the benefit of the doubt, when you’ve told him straight up it wasn’t you? Ask him that, then say it feels sexist to you, and you’re uncomfortable with anyone thinking anything about you that is a lie.

    2. Lilysparrow*

      “I assure you I didn’t roll my eyes at anyone, because I don’t do that kind of thing in work meetings. Since I don’t know who it was or anything about the context, I have no idea what may have given them that impression.

      I would hate to think that any of my co-workers were deliberately mischaracterizing my behavior, or resorting to sexist and dismissive stereotypes. So I can only assume they misinterpreted something. I’d love to clear it up, but I truly have no idea what you’re referring to.”

    3. Engineer Girl*

      Ask your boss:

      “Why do you believe this report about me? Have you ever seen me do it?

      What do you want me to do about the complaint?

      How am I to deal with anonymous complaints? Why isn’t this person contacting me directly if this is a problem? This seems to be a rather passive aggressive way to deal with things.”

  195. ABtoAC*

    I am a manager of a sales team and I’m currently managing someone fairly new that I think could be a “star”. She’s a hard worker, driven to learn, team player, essentially she checks a lot of boxes. The concern I have is on the regular, meaning several times a day, she gets our client’s names wrong. Sometimes it’s in writing to them and sometimes it’s while discussing them internal (including with our Executive Team). Sometimes it’s something small, think confusing the name Tim and Tom on an email, sometimes she’s completely uses a random non-client name, and other’s it’s a name of a client but someone else at that organization or a completely different organization.

    Right now she’s interacting with about 50 clients, some daily others less frequently. My worry is as she grows in her role and interacts with more people this will only get worse. As a seasoned person in this industry, the saying it’s not what you know it’s who you know very much rings true and I worry this will stunt her growth/relationships.

    I’ve tried a few things with her to try and nip this in the bud including pulling up pictures of our clients, hoping to associate a face to the name, taking her to meetings, and I’ve shared fun facts with her about certain clients to try and get things to click and nothing seems to be working.

    Unfortunately, I’m her polar opposite in this department and remember my client’s kids, spouses and dogs names, hobbies, vacation plans, etc… I’m full of useless knowledge! So I can’t relate at all!

    So I come to you all and ask has anyone ever struggled with this personally or have a friend, coworker, etc that has? How did you/they overcome this? I really want to support her with this shortcoming and watch her thrive. She recognizes this shortcoming and is on board with trying some new approaches so please feel free to suggest all and any approaches that you’ve seen work.

    1. LQ*

      Does she get the name wrong only? Or does she mix people up? If she’s good at getting details of people, what they are interested in etc right then that’s a problem I think you can address with …focus on those details. Instead of “I need the files for Tim.” “I need the files for the 360 office chairs in New York.”

      If it’s not able to tie any of it together? Flash cards. Have her make them for all of the clients and go back over them over and over. Real physical flash cards that you have to write notes on. (Store these away where no one can get to them!) I’ve absolutely done this for myself. I am horrible at faces and bad at names, but flash cards, plus routine of at the end of every day I note everyone I worked with, I put additional information into …a personal CRM of a sort and key pieces on the flash card for them. (Which means I have to flip past a whole bunch of other people to get to the right person.)

      1. Auntie Social*

        I’d suggest a 1-day memory course where they teach mnemonics and other “tricks”.

    2. designbot*

      oh my god. 50 names a day?? That sounds completely ridiculous to me. I’m really bad at names, and struggle to remember maybe 5–10 client names a day. 50 would be insurmountable if I was expected to do them all at once from day one. Also, how often do you really need to specifically call people by name? It’s really not so necessary to use people’s names in every single conversation with them. Could she prioritize, and try to learn say five people’s names per week, until she worked up to the total?

    3. Lilysparrow*

      I am terrible with names, to the point that I regularly call my own children by each other’s names, call my husband by my brother’s name, etc. It has nothing to do with my relationship with them or whether I know who I’m addressing. It’s just a glitch between my brain and my mouth. It runs in my family – for example, if someone was in trouble, my grandmother used to start with my oldest aunt and call out names in birth order until she got to the child, in-law, or grandchild she wanted.

      It’s not a matter of knowing who the person is and knowing their name. It’s a problem with getting the right word to come out of my mouth (or fingers) at the right time.

      It’s not just names – I frequently can’t come up with the right word for something on the fly. I’m constantly saying “dohickey” and “thingy” and “you know, that place with the stuff.” But nobody takes that kind of thing personally.

      I deal with it professionally in a few ways:
      1) Using “reply-to” on emails whenever possible, and saving email addresses directly from the incoming email into my address book. Then I always type my salutation line (dear ___) while looking at their email address.

      2) I double-check the names of who I’m referring to in an email as part of my proofread. I always make sure to check against something from that person, or an official source that has been vetted.

      3) On complex projects I keep a written distribution list or workgroup list with the different names and roles in my file so I can refer to it in meetings and on calls. If I have to make this myself, I verify and proofread it several times against official sources.

      4) Verbally, I avoid addressing people by name as much as possible and have a suite of tricks to get people to introduce themselves to each other in case I blank out. (Like, “Oh hey, do y’all know each other?” Most people will introduce themselves, and then I can fill in details about what they do or how I know them – that stuff is never a problem.) Verbally using names isn’t usually a problem if I’m calm and take my time – it only happens if I’m in in a hurry, flustered, or in an excitable super-chatty flow. So I try to slow down and pause before addressing someone.

      5) On phone calls, I always have my notes in front of me before dialing, or if someone calls in I ask them to hang on a moment while I get the file out or page back to my notes, etc. This has the added bonus of making me sound very organized.

      If all else fails, I liberally use phrases like “I beg your pardon, of course I know you’re Tim from X Company, what did I say?” or “I’m so sorry, I mis-spoke. Yes, Tim Lastname. I was following up on Item.” Usually I manage expectations up-front when meeting people by saying, “Just to warn you, I have a hole in my brain for names. Please bear with me if it doesn’t stick the first time.”

      TL:dr – 1) Slow down. 2) Create systems and habits for error control. 3) Be transparent that this is your own issue and not about that person. 4) If you make a mistake, establish that you do know who they are, apologize briefly, and don’t let it derail the discussion.

      Hope that helps!

      1. ABtoAC*

        Thanks these are all great suggestions. I agree I think it’s more a glitch then anything else and it is brought on when it’s busy or she’s nervous. But I’ve also notice it’s just sometimes random.

        It does show up more frequently when she’s jumping from one thing to another. So were working on trying to have her focus on single tasks at a time to try and compartmentalize things.

        I’ve also focuses on her writing more things down. Since the time I was in her position I’ve always just scrap papered the big details including the client’s name. In our roles it helps develop the story before you write a proposal so it’s helpful for several reasons.

        Unfortunately, we are in roles where we need to use the client’s names in emails and on the phone and/or at least project names which she also something get confused (context at any given time I would likely have 30-50 projects on the go- seems nuts I know but I promise it’s manageable as we’re only partially involved after it’s sold through).

        Anyways, I really appreciate the help. I really want to see her thrive in her role and this is one of those speed bumps that once figured out will earn her a lot of trust, respect and appreciation from the clients but also internally. Thanks again!

  196. Mack*

    Does anyone have interview advice from the other side? I’ve only been an interviewer once ever, and I’m not very good at it yet but I’ll be interviewing someone next week.

  197. LivingMyLife*

    I walk 3 miles each day before work and need to find shoes that will be both fashionable for work and comfortable for walking. Any suggestions?

    1. Indiana*

      I am obsessed with Born shoes. I walk everywhere in mine. Also, I have a pair of Cobb Hill oxfords that I love. Lastly, my Skechers Go Walks are amazing. I think they have some that are good for work.

      1. AvonLady Barksdale*

        That would be my suggestion. Walking in work shoes, especially fashionable ones, for a long time can be rough on both your body and the shoes. I used to have several pairs of shoes at my desk (when I worked in a cubicle, they stayed in a drawer).

  198. Alicia*

    Hello everyone,
    I would love some feedback. So I had an 2nd interview and HR said they would make there decision last week. Well I received a call from HR today apologizing for the delay, and they went with another candidate. However, HR expressed they love me and would love for me to work with there company. She expressed upcoming positions and how I would be the 1st pick to hire. Yet HR didn’t expressed what the position is nor when it may be. HR also told me to continue my job search, but to remain in contact as they will as well. Thoughts? Thanks

    1. Anon Anon Anon*

      I would take that to mean, “Keep looking at our job postings and apply again any time, and don’t be surprised if we reach out to you.” In other words, continue your search and continue to make that company part of your search, among other options.

  199. quirkypants*

    A bit late in the day, but I’m looking for advice, references, books, websites, etc. for the parts of management that go beyond the technical aspects that get covered here.

    How do I go beyond just management to leadership?

    I’m interested in reading more about culture as well…

    I’m good at my job, a decent manager when it comes to feedback, training, providing resources and advocating for them (I have to work hard at it, hence why I am here)…. How do I take it to next level?

    I struggle trying to be social at work, I want to work on being more likable (without feeling fake), those sorts of things. I’m likable and I’m social outside of work but how do I do it when I am really busy and really focussed on work at the office?

    Tips? Reading? Thoughts?

    1. OtterB*

      I really liked What Management Is: How It Works and Why It’s Everyone’s Business, by Joan Magretta and Nan Stone. I thought it made the case for what good management could and should do, without haring off into the buzzwords of the day.

      1. Same Here*

        The Center for Creative Leadership has great, but expensive programs, if you can swing it, or work is paying. If not, their books and publications are good too, and you might be able to request from a library instead of purchasing. Their website articles and newsletters are good too.

        The book Encouraging the Heart is good, too.

  200. SecondChoice*

    I could use some advice this weekend. I’ve been job searching for about 3 months since I was laid off in February after 10 years at the same job. Right after being laid off, I interviewed for a fantastic job, for a great manager, at a company about 15 minutes from my house……Unfortunately I wasn’t chosen for the role, but the recruiter called me and told me I was the hiring manager’s second choice, and the person who was ultimately chosen had some specialized experience (not specifically required but “nice to have”) that I didn’t have. Otherwise, all the feedback about me was great.

    Today, I see the same job is posted again. Should I call the recruiter and/or hiring manager? Should I feel a bit bruised that they didn’t think to reach out to me? It would be stupid to let my bruised ego get in the way of contacting them, right?

    1. MissGirl*

      Yes, it would be stupid. Email them tonight. You are not on the forefront of their mind and they probably figured you’ve moved, if the do think of you.

    2. designbot*

      Definitely contact them! Mention that you appreciated getting to know them back in February and are still interested in the role.

    5. MissDisplaced*

      YES! Send the hiring manager an email saying you’ve noticed the position was posted and that you’re still interested. Companies rarely keep the old resumes and/or assume people moved on.

      1. Analytical Tree Hugger*

        In that email, attach your resume again so they don’t have to dig it up. I’m guessing you won’t need to revise it, since it hasn’t been long enough for any significant changes (unless you think you have relevant experience you didn’t highlight previously).

  201. BRR*

    I posted last week about quelling anxiety following a poor business direction and…they laid off a quarter of the staff this week including me. No real question. Mostly just upset and not quite sure what I want to do. I’ve been keeping an eye on job postings for awhile and there’s not much out there at the moment. My severance is decent enough but I’ve had a troubled job history that doesn’t make job hunting easier. This would of course line up with when my therapist is in medical leave.

    1. Argh!*

      Argh! Stay strong. Eat right. Go to a pool every day and swim at least 20 minutes at a time, then watch children playing and think “it could be worse. I could be at work instead of enjoying this pool.” Read self-help books about bouncing back after job loss (Firing Back by Jeffrey Sonnenfeld is a good source of inspiration). Find a temporary therapist to deal with just this transition.

      Those are the things I did. Treat severence pay like vacation pay & medical leave combined, and use it to replenish your spirit. A friend of mine called her severence pay period “funemployment.”

    2. AvonLady Barksdale*

      The first thing you should do is try to take the next couple of days to take care of yourself. It’s easy to jump right in and think about what’s next job-wise, but I highly recommend trying to decompress. Give yourself a week off. During that week you can think about your next steps and then get started. Your job history is a bit troubled, sure, but remember that you landed this job while things were rough at the last one (if I recall correctly) and you were successful for a few years. You got raises and good reviews. You managed to get a handle on your health and find ways to succeed. The road ahead may be challenging, but it won’t be impossible.

      Best of luck!

        1. valentine*

          If your therapist referred you to someone during her leave, make an appointment with them or call the office for a referral. This, at least, is something that doesn’t have to change drastically right now.

  202. Ann O.*

    Over the last several months, I’ve had multiple recruiters contact me about job openings. I am 40+ and this has NEVER happened to me in my working life before. It’s so weird!

    I am job hunting, but in a very non-aggressive type of way. I have part-time work that is sufficient, so while I’d like to have more income, I don’t desperately need to have more income. But I feel like the recruiters have all approached talking to me like they expect me to be desperate and ready to jump through any hoops that they need.

    For example, one recruiter wanted me to commit to a salary off of only a literally 5-minute phone call with them. They didn’t send me a job description, and I hadn’t talked with anyone from the actual company. I was willing to agree to a starting figure, but I wasn’t willing to commit to it. This resulted in them escalating to their supervisor, who then tried to convince me that I absolutely needed to commit. It was a really weird conversation. In my head all I could thing was, you guys reached out to me! I didn’t contact you! Why do you think it’s reasonable to expect me to commit to a salary before a single interview?

    That one was the weirdest, but even the less weird ones have had a subtext of trying to get me to guarantee that I would accept the job if I’m submitted for it. Which of course I can’t do!

    It’s very hard for me to see what value these recruiters can possibly be adding for the companies to be using them. They don’t seem to have a genuine sense of what the company needs, and they start everything on a bad foot.

    1. Who Plays Backgammon?*

      Those recruiters sound desperate, pushy, and not good at their job.

    2. MissDisplaced*

      I generally don’t deal with recruiters.
      I apply for jobs on my own, and talk only to the corporate recruiters.

  203. Oopsie daisies*

    Company is publicly traded. There is evidence that ceo/owner uses company funds for non work related expenses, usually put under the marketing budget. What’s an employee to do?

    2. MissDisplaced*

      Report or tip off the Board of Directors. Unless they are also involved in the misappropriation.

      What about the CFO?

      1. Oopsie daisies*

        CFO and CEO are involved in the misappropriation. It is a small but publicly traded company. I am staff that manages a budget but not part of the finance department. Only been here 6 months. :/

      1. Anono-me*

        Sorry. That should read: Talk to a lawyer specializing in whistleblower protection. That way you will know how to proceed the right and legally best way.

  204. I hate coming up with usernames*

    Freaking out and really hoping a tech person sees this and can answer me. I generally keep my phone logged into both my personal and work Google accounts, since I have a job where you’re expected to be accessible via email from home.

    Today I was using google to search for some things that are definitely not appropriate for work (some stuff to spice up my marriage in the bedroom…) and realized I was logged into my work google account! Is that going to get flagged? I have no idea if I’m in the clear because I wasn’t on a work device, or if it will still show up because my damn gmail kicked me back to being logged in under my work account instead of my personal one. Ughhhhhh.

    1. Lilysparrow*

      Clear your search history. That will help. I don’t know if it’s retrievable, but I’m not sure why they’d bother to go to the trouble unless you have an ongoing problem that made them interested in tracking your searches.

      If anyone mentions it, just tell them you were on your own time and thought you were logged into your personal account. I’m sure it’s not the most egregious thing IT has ever seen.

        1. I hate coming up with usernames*

          Work phone is definitely not a possibility. Not a thing anyone does in my field, and not something I can afford to do on my own. Low-paying, high expectations government job.

  205. Who Plays Backgammon?*

    In our latest staff meeting I mentioned I was thinking about requesting a week off and asked if that would be a problem. (We just got a bunch of one-off projects and events that mean it’s going to be like a popcorn popper until fall, when our busy season starts leading into the holidays. So no slow period this year.)

    Boss said there wasn’t any good time so just request the week whenever. Then Boss made a wisecrack about how it’s a problem when I only request one or two days off at a time. Is this kind of PTO really a “problem” for management? We’re allowed to request PTO in one-hour increments, for gosh sakes, and another staffer will book out 2 to 4 hour PTOs over a period of weeks, I’m guessing because of kids’ school activities. I just took a long weekend and requested another coming up soon, and I have weeks of PTO accrued.

  206. TN INFP*

    Does anyone have any advice for a “retiring” stay at home dad returning to the workforce? My kid will be starting school this year and I have started applying to jobs early and not gotten nearly the response that someone with my experience/skills would normally get, and I know it’s the big break from full-time work that’s hurting me. So questions (PLEASE HELP! any input is appreciated!)

    1. I know “stay at home dad” is probably not something to list on a resume, as it relates to my personal life, not professional – I do mention it in my cover letters but I’m not sure how often those get read. So is there a way to mention it without mentioning it?
    2. I have had a part time job, just to bring in a little cash while doing the SAHD thing. I’ve listed it, but it’s completely irrelevant to my past jobs and unrelated to anything I will be applying for. Would it be better to leave it off and have a big employment gap, or have an unrelated, part-time job as the first thing a potential employer will see on my resume?

    THANK YOU in advance for any input!

    1. On the ball*

      1. You’re right to keep it off the resume. Stick to the cover letter, and keep it factual – it’s a explanation of your employment gap, that’s all.

      2. I’d suggest separating out your relevant work history and any unrelated work into different sections on your resume – that way you can put your most recent relevant experience up top, but still include your part time role to show that you’ve been working. Also think about how you can show that you’ve been keeping up with developments in your field while doing the SAHD thing – have you been reading relevant materials, subscribed to journals, attended any conferences, taken any classes, etc.? The biggest issue we find with hiring people who’ve been out of the field for more than a year is that they’ve missed a lot of developments, so there’s a steeper learning curve. Showing that you’ve been keeping up can do a lot to ameliorate that!

      Also, if you’re applying early, that may be part of why you aren’t getting much interest – how early are we talking here? Depending on your industry, it may not be desirable to employers to apply this early. You might have more luck closer to the post where you’ll actually get available to work. We generally wouldn’t hire someone who we’d have to wait more than a month for, except at the highest levels.

      1. Auntie Social*

        But in the meantime, could volunteering help, both on your resume’ and maybe with contacts?

      2. TN INFP*

        Good stuff. Thanks for the reply.

        I could start within 2 weeks if I had to. I have some family or worst case scenario that can watch the kids during the summer if I got an offer I’d want to accept. I’m glad I started applying early, wasn’t expecting it to be as difficult as it has been.

  207. Annabel Lee*

    I am getting ready to move internationally. I currently work in Asia and am moving to Europe for my partner’s job. My contract in Asia is ending and I do not have a job lined up yet. I am hoping to transition into a remote position somewhere, but I’ve never done this before.

    My question is, are jobs that are through US companies and listed as remote positions generally open to people who live outside of the US? I am looking primarily at edtech companies with remote customer support or account management positions. I have seen several that require you to be US-based and some that clearly state that domestic travel will be required, but for others that don’t list these qualifications, I was wondering if internationally-based applicants are likely to be seriously considered. I am a US citizen, just not planning to live there in the near future.

    This is totally new territory for me. I have been a school-based teacher up until now so I appreciate any information anyone has. Thanks!

    1. BRR*

      I’m not sure but I would go with no. They would need to be set up for employees in another country which I imagine is a labor intensive progress.

      1. Face Palm*

        Thanks, yeah I was thinking about this, but hoped since I don’t need visa sponsorship or any kind of work permit and I have a US bank account and already file US taxes, it would be the same as someone working remotely from home in the US. I expected the more disqualifying thing would be time zones or ability to travel to the US for whatever work-related reason. I guess I’ll just have to see if anyone responds to my applications.

        1. Anon4ObviousReasons*

          HR Manager here…it’s not that simple.

          We’d found someone for a position that everyone liked, but he was in Canada, we are not 1) registered to do business in Canada—if the employee lives and works there (remote work), we were required to go through the registration process which is expensive and time consuming. 2) we would have had to set up a separate payroll module for the Canadian employee. We had to pass.

          Now, if a US company already has employees in the country you’re going to be in…that changes things. But I’d assume that since you’re a teacher, that may not be an option.

          With that said, I’d check openings for large, multinational companies for positions you may be qualified for. Training & development? Companies that make/sell educational information and programs? Companies that develop and administer standardized tests?

  208. Anon4ObviousReasons*

    I am in HR, in middle management at a company where I love the employees but hate leadership.

    I have a criminal background. In 2002, I made a very stupid decision. After completing a diversion program, my conviction is a misdemeanor — for theft.

    There is such a misconception about expungement. Based on the conviction date, this year would be 16 years. I contacted an attorney and was ready to hire someone to apply for expungement. 1) The conviction isn’t “holding me back” because I am currently employed. 2) The case was originally charged as a felony which is much harder to expunge, for obvious reasons.

    I’ve been here a few years but have gotten to that “dreading getting up in the morning” place. But I feel trapped. MOST companies do background checks (we don’t). MOST companies will automatically deny anyone with a conviction for a crime of moral turpitude. HR hiring someone with a theft conviction? I just don’t see it happening. After the conviction I couldn’t find work anywhere and ended up going to school. The 4 years earned me a BS and put time between my conviction. The first job afterward, we discussed the conviction, it was several years old, and I was hired. I worked as a project coordinator and after 4.5 years, there were layoffs.

    I feel like I should be glad I’m working and making decent money but I also feel like it’s been nearly 20 years and I did everything I was supposed to do (community service, paid back every cent, etc).

    I just feel so dejected and stagnant and stuck.

    1. WellRed*

      What do you have to lose by looking around and applying? Yes, it will be tough for alk the reasons you list, but you are that much further past your conviction and with more work history under your belt.

    2. Wakeens Teapots LTD*

      I am sorry for these trouble hanging over you long after they should be any issue!

      For reference, we are a company of 200-250 employees. We only criminal background check financial positions. We might or might not criminal background check HR (I honestly don’t know, that might fall in financial). I am fairly confident that if we did criminal background check for HR, a misdemeanor that old would be a conversation and not an automatic reject.

      It might be worth considering smaller-mid size private companies that might not have automatic checks OR have intentional policies that they don’t want to consider past history if work history is strong, references are good and the candidate is otherwise a match. << that's us.

    3. Anono-me*

      If you are open to relocating, could you focus on states that have passed ‘Ban the Box’ regulations?
      You will probably still have to address the criminal issues at some point but you will have had a chance to demonstrate that that is something in your past and that you can bring quite a bit to their organization.

  209. Rez123*

    I have a fairly nice title at work. It has the word “specialist” on it. The problem is that outside my current sector that title seems to be reserved for more senior positions. How should I change my title in my CV to “officer” or something more junior? I’m not looking to have the type of reponsibility that comes with “specialist” in other work places.

    1. MissDisplaced*

      I’m not sure “specialist” denotes any higher level of management or authority. In fact, I’ve found the opposite to generally be true. In my field the progression goes something like this:
      Assistant
      Specialist
      Manager
      Director
      Vice President
      Chief [now into c-suite executive]

      Most people spend the bulk of their time in Specialist or Manager levels. Not the same in all fields of course, but I’m not sure you should worry about this.

  210. The Dread Pirate Buttercup*

    I have autoimmune/ spoon issues. They’re fairly well under control (knock wood), but I find that if I take an extra day off every three months or so, I get way fewer flare-ups, which do leave me bedridden for a day or two and cranky and spacey for about a week, which does affect my job performance. The trouble is, if you put in for a single day off, my grandboss assumes it’s a scheduling issue and just swaps your days off, which is not helpful for my situation. I’m going to have to track down and corner grandboss, whom I do not speak to regularly, and explain, but how do I say it without coming off as sickly or whiny? Do I even need to drag my health into it?

    I could also ask for three days. It’s less of a hassle for my department to arrange for one day for one employee, but it FEELS like I’m being a bigger willful pain in the neck if I am open about it, since I am “frivolously” looking for a lazy day…

    1. Anono-me*

      When you do the paperwork to request your day off for health reasons, is there somewhere on the paperwork to note that this is a day off request because you have other commitments on the weekend and you need the 3 days that week? Unless you’re trying to use sick leave or FMLA, I don’t see where the rest of it is relevant to anyone if you don’t want to share.

      On a personal note, if you are my coworker; my job is much easier with you taking a day off that is scheduled and planned for rather than you taking several days or more off out of the blue. (This is in addition to the fact that people trying to be decent human beings don’t want you to spend multiple days in pain.)

      1. valentine*

        Grandboss is a tool. Where is your boss in all this? Can you email one or both of them and say you need your requests as-is? And if they ask why say it’s a health thing, but don’t elaborate. And it’s not lazy. It’s a perfectly good solution. You need another day to feel as restored as other people feel after one or two days off. Don’t rebuke or punish yourself for that, just as you wouldn’t someone who needs to, say, sleep more or fewer hours than you or to sit to do activities you can do while standing.

  211. Tracy*

    I’m looking for some advice. One of my direct reports, Jane, who I’ve been friends with since before becoming a manager, is asking to leave the company early. She already gave notice that she’d leave on [a date that’s now less than a month away], due to various problems in the company, including our recent downsizing, but now she wants to leave immediately.

    Recently, another colleague sent out a meeting agenda of quotes from dissatisfied unnamed clients. Jane recognized some of the clients as hers, and she says Bill was targeting her. At a previous meeting, which I only just heard about, Bill also said something about teapots with x problem. Jane viewed that as a dig at her.

    She’s brought these up to me, and I’ve done my best to be compassionate about how upsetting this has clearly been. At the same time, I felt I had to mention that hers are far from the only teapots with x problem. The dissatisfied clients’ comments apply to the work of most, if not all, people on the team (myself and Bill included). I’ve said that I don’t think Bill intended to single her out, but that clearly the impact was very different. I’m not trying to invalidate the effect this has had on her, but she’s said she does not feel that I’m supporting her. She asked if I think she is crazy. I said no, of course not, and I meant it. At the same time, I don’t feel like I can ignore that there are facts involved — the comments applied to most/all of us in general, including to Bill’s teapots, and clients have a long history of bad-mouthing our work for reasons that have more to do with overall company problems — that don’t support the idea that Bill is deliberately targeting her or talking about her work specifically. Her hurt is very real, but I don’t know how I could co-sign a complaint that Bill is harassing her.

    She says she’s unsafe at work and now wants to leave immediately without notifying HR or higher-ups. I told her I couldn’t do that, since we still have to make teapots in the next few weeks, and we’re all already overworked and burnt out due to the downsizing. We can’t get someone to substitute if the higher-ups don’t know that she’s left. She’s very disappointed in me, and it certainly feels like I’m failing her, but I don’t know what else I could have done or should do. Any advice or perspectives that can help me make sense of this?

    1. WellRed*

      First, Jane is being ridiculous. In what way is she unsafe? Have you explicitly tried to shut this down? Is your friendship blurring this for you? Also, Jane is a person with free will and autonomy I presume. Why can’t she just…leave? And why are you letting her dictate how to handle this, ie notifying HR? You need to be a manager first, Jane’s buddy second. And be prepared to lose the friendship.

      1. Tracy*

        I’ve pushed back on the idea that Bill was targeting her directly, by citing the facts to the contrary. I let her know that HR would definitely have to be involved if she chooses to leave the company early. I was surprised that she even suggested leaving HR in the dark.

        My saying those things strikes me as pretty reasonable, but she doesn’t seem to feel the same way, so I’m left wondering whether I’m missing something in this whole situation. It’s confusing, to say the least.

        Thank you for responding. It’s good to know I’m not the only one who finds this somewhat bewildering.

        1. The Other Dawn*

          I agree with WellRed. I don’t understand why Jane can’t just leave. If she wants to burn a bridge by not working out her notice period, that’s her call. No one can force her to stay there. I’d just tell her to do what she needs to do for herself. I mean, you can tell her she needs to work out the notice period, but she doesn’t need to abide by it. As for feeling “targeted” and “unsafe,” it’s a meeting that was called because a client known to be dissatisfied with the team’s work and the company as a whole is dissatisfied again. A meeting! Jane is reading an awful lot into things.

        2. Observer*

          Yes, you’re missing something. That something is that Jane has an issue that you can’t really diagnose and it’s causing her to behave in a really unreasonable fashion.

          Stop discussing this with her. Don’t try to persuade her that she should work out her notice period. And do not agree to not tell anyone.

          And be prepared to let this friendship end.

      1. Tracy*

        Yeah, several parts of this are confusing to me, but even I’m crystal-clear that I can’t just let someone stop showing up without telling HR about it. Thank you for confirming that it’s a weird request.

        1. valentine*

          Does she really not want you to say anything and proceed as though she’s leaving on the chosen day? Because that’s truly bizarre. But is it possible she doesn’t want you to tell them she won’t be in tomorrow because she doesn’t want a confrontation? Jane is fragile in a way you can’t help and wants bizarre loyalty from you that you can’t give.

          She asked if I think she is crazy.
          If she asks again, tell her it’s inappropriate and move on.

  212. Malina*

    Hey all, happy weekend!

    I’m working in Recruitment at the moment with plans to move into HR some time soon. I’d like to get a certificate that would give my CV a bit more weight but also introduce me to some important HR related matters and practices that I couldn’t have encountered in my work so far.

    Is there a program you would recommend?

    I’m based in Europe, ideally would love to attend something in person, however I’m open to an online course too.

    Thank you!

  213. Catherine from Canada*

    I know I’m super late to the Friday conversation, but could anyone who reads this please send positive thoughts my way on Thursday afternoon? I have a job interview for a job that I’d really like to get.

    I’m a technical writer, currently working on a full time contract. I bus to work about 3/4 hour each way. I also own a store, and spend about 20 hours a week on finance, IT, and teaching evening classes (I have fantastic staff and a business partner who works there full time).

    The business will/should be able to pay me a living salary in about another 2 years, and it is my retirement plan (the dot.com crash wiped out our pension, it’s a common story in our city…), so I need to keep working for at least another 2-3 years. At least twice a week, I leave my house at 6am, and get home at 10pm. I’m 61 years old and running on fumes..

    This new job is two months on and two months off at a salary that works even on what is technically half-time. It’s the same work I’m doing now (maybe slightly less frustrating), so I’m not worried about that.

    I haven’t done many interviews though, this will be my fourth actually, so I am worried about that. (I was a SAHM then a WAHM for 25 years, and all my jobs since then have been people asking me to come and write for them. So very little experience interviewing. If I can keep from being too nervous I’ll be fine, but the only way to keep from being nervous is to not think about how much I want and need this job…)

    Anyway, a kick-ass resume thanks to Alison and all you in the commentariat. Now I just need to tap the archives for interview tips, right? Thanks

    1. WellRed*

      Alison has an interview guide. Maybe that will help? And remind yourself, you’ve got solid experience. Be pleasant, friendly, professional. Don’t babble on in response to questions, make sure you have a few questions yourself and dress sharp.

    2. Oopsie daisies*

      For what it’s worth, I think Youre on the right track re tapping the archives.

      During the interview, take your time to digest and answer the questions. This has helped me a lot since I tend to want to answer right away (for anything). Always answering a second or two after the interviewer has finished their question has made a big difference for myself I think.

      It’s a small thing but I also lay out my outfit the night before.

      Sending you the best good vibes!

  214. Maybe TOO on Top of Things*

    Hi, first time poster in need of some advice! I know it’s late in the weekend, but I figured you all might have some insight!

    I’m taking up a TA position this fall and having some trouble making sure my employment paperwork is getting filed.

    After being unable to get [Necessary Paperwork Information] from my department contact for ten days, I finally got it from HR, who suggested I send employment paperwork to them if I still didn’t hear otherwise and they’d forward it if need be. Still nothing from the Department Contact, so I did, with a request to notify/forward to [Department] as appropriate. The Department Contact put in a similar request to have it forwarded to her when we finally got in touch/caught up on the situation a few days later.

    I asked her if she’d heard anything a few days after it should have gotten there, and the Department Contact told me she’d email me when she received it. Nothing, so I tentatively email her again about a week later. She replies she “can’t follow up on something [she] doesn’t have,” has made a note about the deadline, and that I should talk to HR, not her.

    I say I had understood our call to mean she’d be in touch, sorry for the inconvenience, and I’d do that! So I call HR. They got the paperwork and have already sent it to her, per her request. I email her back, saying I understand it’s a busy time of the year/sorry again for the inconvenience, but HR told me they’d sent her the paperwork.

    Nothing for four business days.

    TL;DR: Unresponsive contact now seemingly frustrated with me for inconveniencing her, but told me she doesn’t have paperwork I’ve been assured was given to her. We’re closing in on a business week, and still nothing further.

    When is it appropriate to check in with her again? Do I just trust she’ll do everything on her end without further contact? Is this the point that I should talk to my faculty contact?

    I do understand that it is very busy and that everything will probably work out okay, but I am a little anxious, as my tuition waiver/stipend/enrollment/employment depends on this! (I’ve previously had problems with paperwork abroad where I was told they didn’t receive it – but was able to point out that their office had signed for it, so that might be adding to my worry.) If I am overthinking it, let me know.

    1. valentine*

      Talk to your faculty contact. Tell them the facts, with no speculation and see what they recommend. Perhaps they could keep tabs on it for you. If anyone’s failure will result in you losing the job, resume job-searching. I wouldn’t trust these people. I cannot stand people who don’t do what they say or having to harass them or their colleagues because there’s no other way to get the thing done and I’m the one who will (usually literally) pay if they don’t.

    2. Rainy*

      This is, in my experience, really early for fall TA paperwork to actually be filed. I TAed during both my master’s and PhD programs at two different unis in two different countries, and in general I got the letter confirming around this time and then the actual hiring paperwork wasn’t done until July or August. I never, the whole time I was working as a TA/RA/sessional/what have you, dealt with HR directly–the department graduate administrator did all of that, and just handed me an appointment letter and had me fill info online.

      Why do you need the employment forms now?

      1. Maybe TOO on Top of Things*

        Thank you, that’s good to know!

        I was sent my contract and the majority of the hiring paperwork, with a request to have it in by mid-May (which also seemed early to me, but I’m not going to argue). The only reason I talked to HR at all is because I needed some institution codes and couldn’t get in touch with the department graduate administrator, honestly.

        But if it’s unusual for this all to actually be handled this early, I suppose that could explain some of her frustration? But “This offer of appointment expires if the signed original copy of this contract and the
        [attached documents] are not received by the [relevant] department before [date]” seems to be pretty clear.

        Thank you for the insight!

        1. Rainy*

          I think I’d reach out to your faculty contact and ask about the deadline–you may find that it’s an actual hard deadline, but you may also find that it’s just something they put on offer letters because HR mandates it, but that no one actually pays any attention to it.

          Be careful about bugging the program administrator too much, because a positive working relationship with your program administrator is very important to your success as a grad student.

  215. Mellow*

    Does anyone else work with someone who has to mother and smother everyone else? Gah – I am so tired of the way my coworker doesn’t seem to understand that she works with other adults. What’s worse is that if you don’t roll over so she can burp and diaper you, over time, she grows resentful, and finds passive-aggressive ways ways to retaliate – which is what keeps me from feeling sorry for her. I think her whole self worth is bound into doing for, fixing for, rescuing, etc., and if you deprive her of a pat on the head, look out. Our boss does nothing about it. I have set very firm boundaries with her and she hates that, too. Fortunately, I do good work and have strong allies in other departments. Still, she positively poisons our workplace with her issues.

    Thanks for reading. (Not really looking for advice, although I’m happy to read it; more like “let’s share stories!”)

Comments are closed.