open thread – May 24-25, 2019

by Alison Green on May 24, 2019

It’s the Friday open thread! The comment section on this post is open for discussion with other readers on anything work-related that you want to talk about. If you want an answer from me, emailing me is still your best bet*, but this is a chance to talk to other readers.

* If you submitted a question to me recently, please do not repost it here, as it may be in my queue to answer.

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  1. Higher Ed Admin?*

    I’m a recent-ish grad who’s looking into a career in higher education administration, and I’m interested in learning the AAM community’s thoughts about the field. Hearing people’s likes or dislikes about the field as well as words of advice for those considering it (or perhaps words of caution!) would be helpful. For what it’s worth, I’m a fairly introverted person who enjoys writing, research, and record-keeping, and I’m wondering if any roles in higher ed admin would work well with those qualities. Thanks in advance!

    1. tesserae*

      Institutional research and accreditation! The work is interesting, there’s a lot of writing and data analysis involved, and you’ll work with a wide constituency. Along those same lines, research development, which is typically the department that supports the grant-seeking academic departments (at universities that do research. They all do institutional research/accreditation).

      1. Gene Parmesan*

        I was just coming to comment this! I’ve worked in institutional research for 3 years and I love it. The work is interesting and varied, and it plays a meaningful role in decision-making. I am also an introvert, and I like that it’s not a public-facing role. I do have to talk and present to stakeholders such as college leadership and the board of trustees from time to time, but I don’t mind that. There are some tasks which have the potential to be repetitive/more of a grind, but I approach these with a problem-solving mindset and work towards becoming more efficient and automating them to the extent possible. I have also been able to maintain engagement with the academic research community (my background is in education policy), which is important to me.

        1. Oh So Anon*

          Hey, we’re twins! One of the things I loved about working in institutional research (I’m in an IR-adjacent role now) is that it provided opportunities here and there for doing things that are more public-facing without necessarily having them be a core part of my role.

    2. Not my usual name*

      Research Administration or Research Development could be good! There’s a lot of different types of positions in those areas that could work for those interests.

    3. Lovecraft Beauty*

      I love working in higher ed. As you get higher in management, the work-life balance gets worse and the pay isn’t going to be great, but the benefits are generally as good as you’re going to get in a non-union job (including some stuff that you won’t get anywhere else, like access to research libraries, if that’s something you care about — I do), and it’s really nice to be working to make the world better.

    4. Rainy*

      I work in higher ed :) I have a lot of direct student contact because of my role, but that’s definitely not always the case.

      There are a lot of roles in research administration that involve writing, research, and record-keeping (NCURA is the professional organization). If you have grant-writing experience, most unis have an office solely to serve as consultants to help faculty and grad students write grants. I think there are a lot of place you could find a home in higher ed. If you have a target city, look for all the colleges and universities in the area and then hit their individual career pages and look at what’s available. That will help you narrow your search and give you an idea of what’s out there!

      1. Not my usual name*

        SRAI is another professional org for research administration

        Research Development’s org is NORDP

    5. Hermione*

      I’ve been in the field for over 7 years at two large universities in the Northeast US, starting as a department admin/undergraduate advisor and eventually ending up in course scheduling in the registrar’s office. A registrar’s office role might be a good one for you, especially in transcripts or archives/records management.

      My current role has very little student interaction, but plenty of interactions with faculty and staff (many of my colleagues speak to students much more often). I’m happy to answer any questions you might have.

      1. Catwoman*

        I’ve worked in higher ed for just over 5 years. My biggest piece of advice is to decide if you want to work in a student-facing/serving environment (like advising or student recruitment) or a more behind-the-scenes environment (like institutional research, course scheduling or grants). There are also some roles that are more of a balance between those two extremes.

        1. Hermione*

          Agreed, though I know of people who have switched very easily between the two during their careers. I lean towards introverted, but I (almost) never minded the one-on-ones with students in an advising role.

          Many entry-level roles in the field lean student- or faculty-serving, though, so my advice, OP, would be to keep in mind that if you don’t love your first job in the field not to be soured on the field as a whole. For me, I would never, ever, ever want to go back to a full faculty-support role (dept admin), but don’t mind having to communicate with them in my current position (for the most part, anyway :)).

    6. HarvestKaleSlaw*

      My sense is that there is a big backlash brewing against higher-ed administration. It has been bloated for a while, and you hear rumblings from many quarters about its role in driving up tuition and indebtedness.

      Academic administration covers a lot of ground, so depending on what interests you, I would focus on developing transferable skills you can use in many sectors. If you like data, for example, you can work in institutional research or go private sector.

      Avoid the temptation of graduate programs in academic administration. They are not respected, and they are not transferable.

      1. Rainy days*

        Agreed. Any skill you can use in the private sector, you can use in higher ed administration.

        My husband works in communications and digital strategies at a graduate school and he overall really enjoys his specific position, but there’s been a lot of turnover among his coworkers due to a combination of: the top-most person at the school being kind of crazy and horrible, people moving into the field from the private sector with zero understanding of what the differences will be then getting frustrated and leaving, and bullying of staff by the students (upon the slightest disagreement with any of the staff, certain students won’t hesitate to create social media and email campaigns disparaging them).

      2. Oh So Anon*

        This depends on the program and your prior work experience, though. Transferability is certainly more of a challenge for the people who’ve built up careers on the student-facing side of academic admin, whereas lots of institutional research folk I know with MEd degrees didn’t struggle to leave for the private sector, for example.

        Maybe this is specific to the region I live in though, but one thing I do find is that public policy/administration degrees (and to be perfectly honest, anything related to government relations) tend to be misunderstood within higher ed admin. It’s a big part of why I decided against the MPP/MPA route – it would likely leave me in a position where I’d still be fighting an uphill battle to establish the credibility/relevance of my subject matter expertise within higher ed but also make me an outsider in most public policy circles.

    7. Ruth (UK)*

      I work in admin in a university in the UK. I’ve been in this job for over a year and mostly enjoy it. I’m based in an academic school but in an admin role (so I give administrative support mostly to academics, as opposed to being based in a non-academic or administrative department like finance, marketing, recruitment, hr, timetabling, etc).

      For my role, it helps to be extroverted. It’s quite busy in a shared office space where academic staff, students (undergrad and post grad), visitors, delivery people and so on are frequently coming in and asking for help, information, etc. However, there are other roles within the uni where that may not be the case. However, at least where I am, having one’s own office in an administrative position only tends to happen very high up the hierarchy and sharing at least 3 or more to an office is the norm (with sharing in large open plan offices is very normal). My office has 5 desk spaces and is used regularly by 7 different people (due to some part time people and hot desking) and on occasion by other people.

      I find my role is quite varied and is mostly desk based but not sitting down all day.

      I do a bunch of record keeping, finance tracking, form checking, etc.

      I often find there’s quite a lot of form filling in, procedures, ‘red tape’, authorisation needed, etc. But not as bad as when I worked in the NHS.

      I get slightly more annual leave than is standard. My workplace is also quite good at accomodating needs for flexible working and is quite an inclusive workplace (for example, very LGBT+ friendly/inclusive etc).

      Overall, I think the pros outweigh the cons but also, it may depend a lot on what particular role, department, and institution (and country) you’re in.

      1. Fr Spodo Komodo*

        I’m also in HE in the UK – was in London and now in Scotland – and can echo much of what you said, especially leave, flexible working and inclusivity. It does, in my experience, take a lot of energy to be in a role which is directly facing both academics and students, partly because of the reasons you mentioned (and especially the open-plan bit!). I also find that the work is incredibly varied, meaning that I get to wear a lot of different hats in one week (in fact, I find focusing on one task for the whole day week means I get a bit antsy sometimes!).

        In my experience, some of the more centrally-located roles (rather than roles within an academic school or dept) can leave more space for things like writing and research, and would support the suggestion of looking at research-focused positions rather than student-facing. Depending on the structure of the organisation, there might also be roles within whichever department is responsible for academic regulation and policy which could suit you.

        I definitely think there are elements of HE admin which are challenging, but what job isn’t? I came into HE immediately after I graduated, just after a massive recession, and I’ve been here for the last 8 years, making steady progress into management and getting tons of opportunities along the way, even managing to complete a masters alongside study. Basically, give it a shot!

    8. Sabrina Spellman*

      I work in a registrar’s office at a University and generally, I love the work! I am introverted as well and I don’t always have to communicate with people often as I spend most of my time working in the student information system. Happy to answer any questions you have!

    9. Wordnerd*

      You can take a look at the kinds of jobs available at higheredjobs.com. Jobs with “Assessment” anywhere might be up your alley. Echoing registrar and institutional research recommendations from other comments.

    10. Higher Ed Admin?*

      I’m thrilled to have received so many responses so far! It’s sounds like there are definitely opportunities that would fit my personality and skills, which is exciting. Something else I wanted to ask about is grad school…I’ve seen a lot about Master’s degrees in higher education administration. Would it be useful to have this degree if I wanted to pursue this field?

      1. Minerva McGonagall*

        A master’s in HEA or something similar are often used by people working directly with student populations. I work in Student Life and my master’s is in Education. Some HEA programs will have more focus on Institutional Research, or the admin side of things, but many will focus on counseling skills or student life.

        Our registrar actually has her master’s in history, and that was because she needed a master’s degree for a promotion. So for some positions, any master’s will do.

      2. Zephy*

        If you’re trying to break into the field, you probably won’t need a Master’s degree, and in fact that might make you more difficult to hire if you’re applying for lower or entry-level positions (they will assume, likely rightly, that you’ll want more money because you’re paying off graduate school loans). If you want one, working for a university means you’ll very likely get some kind of tuition discount or reimbursement benefit. The best advice I ever got regarding master’s-level degrees is to get someone else to foot the bill for it, if you can’t afford to pay 100% out-of-pocket.

        1. Libervermis*

          Could I tack on a question about this? I’m also interested in higher ed admin, particularly things like advising, study abroad, grant/program management, etc, but just graduated with a humanities PhD and haven’t gotten any bites on my applications. Could just be a numbers/fit thing, but of course I worry that the PhD and lack of HEA Masters makes everyone assume I’ll jump ship for a faculty job in a year. I try to address that in my cover letter, but does the commentariat think an HEA Masters might be a good move? I’d love to avoid yet more schooling if I could, and I worked hard during grad school to do things like advising, student conduct boards, organizing big cross-university events, etc, but I know that’s not the same as years of job experience.

          1. Alphonse*

            I work in a student-facing role in a mid-size university in the Midwest and have an M.Ed. in Student Affairs/Higher Ed, and having just recently gone through a job search for my first full-time role in the field, I think it’s helpful to note that these types of advising/study abroad/ etc. positions don’t open up all that frequently, especially if you are focused on a specific geographic region. I wouldn’t jump into a grad program unless you get funding through a Graduate Assistantship in one of the functional areas you are interested in, which most of the time will cover most if not all of your tuition and provide a modest living stipend (which I’m sure is a concept you’re already aware of having just gone through a PhD). It’s a small field with what tends to be a long hiring process, so I’d give it a fair bit of time (at least 6 months searching) before you consider going for a master’s on top of your other credentials.

          2. Awkward Interviewee*

            In my opinion, no the HEA Masters would be a waste of time and money. For many of these positions, they want a master’s level degree (or higher) plus experience, but it doesn’t necessarily matter what the master’s degree is in. It is very possible that the PhD is turning search committees off depending on the level of job you’re applying to, but a HEA Masters wouldn’t fix that. It also can take quite awhile to break into a University, because they tend to do a lot of hiring from within. I’m an academic advisor with a completely unrelated Masters degree. I had one job search take 1.5 years (but that one was during the recession in 2009-2010) and a later search when I wanted to relocate took about 6 months. For that second search, my rate of getting at least a first round interview was about 50%, even without the HEA Masters.

          3. Wells*

            I did the career transition you’re aiming at–finished a humanities PhD and then went into admin. I did have to push against the assumption that I would leave for a teaching job. What helps is having a clearly articulated vision of why the staff side is right for you, and to be able to share that in a compelling way in cover letters and interviews. Once you find a hiring committee that believes in you and you get some work experience under your belt, you won’t be seen as a flight risk any longer.

            I strongly advise NOT doing more school. Too often, PhDs who are leaving academia fall back on additional education as a means to change careers, since education is a comfort zone for them. Work experience in the field will be worth so much more than additional education at this point.

            1. Libervermis*

              Thank you all, and particularly thank you Wells, always nice to see that someone managed to walk the track I’m trying for. I’ll revisit cover letters with a more narrative angle and see where that gets me. I’ll think I’ll be more confident that it’s just a numbers game if I can get even a couple phone screens/first-round interviews. The total silence makes me think it must be something wrong with me, but I also know (intellectually and first-hand) that there just aren’t a ton of positions anyways and they have longer hiring processes than one would think.

              1. Wells*

                Hang in there! After landing my first term position relatively quickly it took me many applications with no responses to snag something permanent. Now that I’ve found the right landing spot, I’ve really flourished and moved up.

                Literally one of the first questions I was asked in an admin interview was “you have a PhD–why do you want this job?” I was very relieved to have a genuine and positive answer.. something along the lines of “I love working with students and being part of a community campus! This job lets me continue using the skills I’ve learned as an instructor, and it would give me more stability than an academic job search can offer.” Plus a joke about how I don’t want to leave the super cold winters to pursue a job in another city… I think partly they wanted to know that I wasn’t a snob who saw this job as below them, or who really hadn’t thought through the difference between academic and administrative roles.

                One thing that really helped me was talking through my career situation with my non-academic friends and acquaintances, and then stealing the language that they used when they mirrored it back to me. It was great practice for polishing that narrative, and it helped me shift my language and mindset out of the ivory tower.

          4. Not that kind of doctor*

            I also moved from a humanities PhD to admin fairly recently. I had worked a couple years as a department admin before grad school (where realized I didn’t like being the de facto personal assistant to professors…), so that may have helped a bit, but the interviewers for my current position definitely pressed me to see what my real interests were and make sure I wouldn’t leave right away. On the plus side, it really resonated with them to say that I want to be surrounded by smart people doing good work that matters, and I want to help make things happen.

            I got in the door on a 6-month part-time hourly contract at not-ideal pay, which I supplemented with another part-time gig. My group continued to like my work and have more for me to do, which kept me going until something more permanent opened up. I now have a title and salary that should be a strong position from which to build my career. You may be already doing this, but use AAM’s advice to highlight the organizational work you did during your degree as relevant experience. Plus, you speak the language of academia, which is a plus if you’re going to work with faculty, grants, events, guest speakers, and such.

            As others have said, once you’re in, it’s easier to move around within the university, and the benefits are pretty amazing, even if the salary is fixed in bands. I keep my hand in the game of academic conferences and such, so I love using the library, not to mention the gym, fitness classes, matching retirement contributions, etc. For me personally, I found that I prefer working mostly with other staff rather than serving faculty directly, since they can be a bit imperious: they want X to happen and don’t understand/care that it’s logistically impossible.

          5. Cassie*

            I don’t know anything about an HEA masters, but my suggestion would be to simply apply for staff positions within an academic department rather than go for a degree.

            For example, we have 3 staffers who work in the grad student affairs office, 1 person who is considered the graduate advisor (not an academic advisor). The grad advisor does not have a college degree, but has years of experience as advising students. She started out many moons ago as a clerical worker in a different dept, and then when the student affairs position opened up in that dept, she applied for it and got it. And then a few years later, moved on to our (larger) department.

            The trick is to network and make connections with other people around campus. One of the advantages of working on campus is that you’ll inevitably interact with central departments and/or other academic departments, so there’s plenty of opportunities for different jobs.

        2. blackcat*

          Yes, someone I know who is lower level in my university administration is pursuing a masters in education (not MAT or masters in higher ed, just an MA in educational studies). She said she needs the degree to move up. Without a masters–and it sounds like any, vaguely related masters–there’s a ceiling.

        3. Mimmy*

          I too have a question: I am interested in one specific component of higher education: disability services. There is a Masters degree for this, but as far as I know, only one school offers it. It was created in collaboration with a major professional association in the field and has only been around for about 3-4 years but people I’ve talked to seem to really like it. Hopefully more schools will follow suit.

          Would I be shooting myself in the foot if I pursued this? I am not currently working in this capacity but the curriculum entails everything I want to learn about. I’m just concerned because 1) only one schools offers this degree and, thus, is probably not well-known yet and 2) although the director said some of the course content has broader applicability, it might be too narrow to transfer elsewhere if working in this field doesn’t pan out.

          1. Janey-Jane*

            One of my grad school peers works in disability services, and that was his goal during school. He GA’d in the DS office for two years, and then interned for a semester at another school, if I recall. If you can also apply to schools that have grad assistantships in that department, you’ll be well covered in experience. It’s a really small field, but once you get experience in it (and I assume are flexible in location), the jobs are there, because you’ll get hired over someone with experience elsewhere in higher ed.

          2. Ella*

            I think work experience, like a grad assistantship or internshipin accessibility services, would be much more attractive than just a degree. If you want a higher ed degree, I’d look for one that offers or requires grad assistantships/internships vs one just specializing in that one topic. I work in higher ed, not in accessibility services. When we hire a degree is a plus but experience is a must.

      3. Eeyore's missing tail*

        That can be tricky. I’m in high ed administration and am working on an MPA right now. The way I view it, if I choose not to stay in higher ed, this degree will more likely give me skills that I can transfer to other areas, such as non-profit or government. But, I know know that the for-profit world isn’t for me. I know a lot of people who earned a master’s in high education, adult education, and college student administration. It all depends on what you want to do.

        And if you’re working in higher ed, see what they’ll pay for! My institutions pays for my program tuition and fees, but they are particular about which programs they pay for. And learn the ins and out of the policy. Higher ed does seem to love complicated policies.

        1. Gimme Shelter*

          Eeyore, I too work in higher-education administration and have an MPA degree. It’s true that higher-ed institutions are bursting at the seems, and that the field is ripe for a shakeup. I would choose a master’s degree that is broader such as education, public administration, or business administration.

    11. Weegie*

      Echoing others that have suggested supporting grant writing – it can be really interesting exploring others’ research. You might need a master’s degree for that, though, and a PhD doesn’t go amiss (depending on where you are located in the world).

      Also consider knowledge exchange or business development (that’s what they’re called in the UK; not sure about other places). You would still be supporting researchers, but in disseminating their work to business, industry, NGOs, etc. If you’re the sort of introvert who extraverts really well, this is interesting work as you get to interact with researchers and loads of people outside the academy.

      Downsides: some faculty members can be a bit snotty about and towards administrators. Upside: this gets you lots of experience in *dealing with tricky people* :-)

    12. Minerva McGonagall*

      Higher education is great! I started right after I graduated from my undergrad. My master’s degree was free because I got it at the school I worked at. For the most part, you’ll need a masters to move up in the higher education world. There are also a number of other benefits (libraries, fitness, possible summer hours).

      There can be a lot of politics involved, and there are always dysfunctional offices. If you see an office that has had a significant amount of turnover, it’s certainly worth further investigation as to why.

      I agree with tesserae about IR and accreditation for someone with an interest in writing and research! At larger schools, there may also be positions in development research, so you’d be looking at trends in fundraising and developing.

      1. Higher Ed Admin?*

        Thanks so much for your comment! Is a Master’s degree specifically in higher education administration generally what’s expected in this field?

      2. Researchalator Lady*

        There can also be lots of politics involved in IR — leadership asking for reporting to further their agenda, or not being able to change terrible practices (pie charts, eugh!) that were being used before you came on the scene. So that can be very frustrating.

    13. College Career Counselor*

      Operations/prospect research in development and fundraising come to mind! As do grant-writing and research, registrar’s office work and project management for academic research!

      For me, at least, the best part of the field is working with students, and I like working with people who are pulling in the same direction to make the student academic and co-curricular experience as rewarding as possible. We all do different things, but they’re all in service to the education (in one way or another) of the student population.

    14. twig*

      I’m classified staff at a state university. (admin assistant) I love it here.

      Pros:
      -The Mission (how can you not get behind the mission to educate people?)
      -Pension
      -Diverse population (not just ethnically or culturally — we have all sorts of different people with various interests)
      -Education benefits (I can take up to 2 classes per semester as long as it doesn’t interfere with my work — some managers will allow you to make up the hours if you take a class during work hours)
      -Also, it’s nice to work somewhere pro-education that is willing to pay for training
      -Job Security (this will not always apply) I live in a “right to work” state, which means that you can be let go for any reason at any time. This does NOT apply at my institution. (probably because it’s state job), we have to be formally warned and cannot be fired on the whim of a grouchy supervisor
      -Its a pretty place to work. if I need a break, I can go walk around campus for a bit
      – The campus is like a small town — my work is a community (more so that I’ve ever felt working in industry)
      -Good leave policies (I get 2 weeks PTO and 2 weeks sick leave per year and can save those up, we also have generous bereavement and civil leave. I didn’t have to use Sick leave to got to my aunt’s funeral 2 states away and I didn’t have to use PTO when I had Jury duty for 2 weeks)
      – Just the Energy on campus when things are happening is fabulous! we just had commencement last week, the joy, relief, pride emanating from the students and their families was amazing.
      – Once you’ve gotten a job on a campus, it will be easier to get other jobs on campus, especially if you have occasion to interact with other departments and build up your reputation.

      Cons:
      -Pay — will not necessarily be as high as it would be for similar positions in industry and, for state institutions, anyway, raises can be held at the mercy of the state legislature when the economy tanks (our state still hasn’t fully restored educational funding back to pre-2008 levels)
      -Some departments are better run than others (I’m lucky with where I landed, I’ve heard nightmare stories about other departments)
      -Its harder to fire crummy workers (this is the other side to the “Job Security” pro above) however, it can be done with the proper documentation and processes.
      -Academic departments can have the problem of people being promoted to chair/head of the department due to seniority, but have little leadership or management training
      -Academics can be single minded in their pursuits focusing only on their research/topic without regard for how to make things work logistically speaking, which can make it difficult, at times, to work with them — but it’s really just a matter of understanding what is important to them and figuring out how to work with them individually
      -Things move more slowly than in Industry — more decisions are made by committee (this can also be a “Pro” you have a little more time to get up to speed. When I’ve started new positions in industry, it always feels like I need to hurry up and get good at my job so that I can make the company money. In academia, it’s more a matter of getting up to speed to be able to help people and do your job more efficiently — which is a different kind of urgency)

      I could probably go on and on, but I HIGHLY encourage you to pursue a career in higher education. Even landing a classified (as opposed to administrative faculty) position will get your foot in the door and you will be able to explore and learn more about the options around campus.

      1. Higher Ed Admin?*

        Thank you so much for taking the time to write such a detailed pros and cons list! This information is really good to know.

    15. Joe Smoe*

      I graduated 3 years ago and have been working for a university. During this time I have learned that higher ed really does have great benefits and work-life balance but the two downfalls for me are: not very high or competitive salaries or even the ability to negotiate higher pay, and you cannot move up very fast as everything is standardized – aka just being very excellent at your job will not move you up as quickly as you hoped. There are more policies and regulations put in place that a university has to be careful about compared to businesses. Just my thoughts!

    16. Kimmybear*

      Higher ed administration is incredibly diverse and can cover a wide range of areas. Someone above mentioned NCURA for research administrators but also check out some of the other associations (NAFSA for international student and faculty support, NACUBO for business officers).

    17. kj*

      I got a call this morning with a job offer that is a 20% pay bump!, I’m also the final candidate at an amazing company for a position that would give me a lot of opportunities, hopefully by the end of the day I will have 2 offers. :) Thankfully it’s a holiday weekend so I’ll have time to decide.

      2. kj*

        So I got my second offer end it was 50% more than I am making now! plus amazing benefits.

        1. Candace*

          Congrats! I too work in higher ed admin, in a pretty upper level position – a Dean. Pay does suck early on, but if you move up, it can be very good indeed.

    18. ThinMint*

      I work in higher ed, in a business office but not a student facing role. For the most part, I really really love it.

      Pros:
      mostly relaxed atmosphere
      great benefits
      pretty good work life balance
      i like the excitement of the new class coming in. it’s wonderful to feel connected to a larger mission

      Cons:
      my position is much more butt in seat than i want it to be
      bureaucracy abounds
      some employees have gotten into the system and are coasting until retirement with unprofessional behavior that goes unchecked
      pay is lower (but again, benefits for me make up for that)

    19. Mimmy*

      No advice as I have no experience but I am following along as I too am interested in higher education, specifically, disability services and/or ADA compliance.

      I will echo the recommendation for HigherEdJobs – you can search jobs in a variety of categories. You can save your searches so that you get an email alerting you to postings with your specified criteria. The site also has articles on job searching and career development in higher education.

    20. Marie*

      I work in higher ed in a student facing role. I agree with what others have suggested about positions to consider. One other thing I would suggest looking into would be to see if your university has any temporary staffing services as that can be a good way to get your foot in the door, learn the systems, and then figure out more about what role would best suite you.

      As for getting a Master’s, I might wait on that until you have an idea of what role you might want to pursue on campus. Some positions require them, some don’t.

      Also as another reader noted, higher ed is facing a lot of pressure from rising tuition costs. Because of this, many institutions are restructuring and/or downsizing. Ours is currently restructuring and while people have not lost jobs, many are being expected to take on additional work without a pay increase. So just be aware of that as you’re job searching. Good luck!

    21. Megasaurusus*

      I’m echoing a lot of the comments here, but the more consistency you see in responses the more accurate I think it is to the world of higher ed. I work in Financial Aid and have a lot of contact with students, but balance that with a lot of close the door and do introverted excel spreadsheet work – which makes for the perfect balance for me.

      One thing people haven’t mentioned is the difference between working for a private university or a public university. I think this makes a huge difference in terms of the volume of work, regulations, and culture. I prefer to work for private universities, because if you are aligned with the culture and mission you have more autonomy and agency to makes positive changes.

      Pros: work-life balance – there are no emergencies in higher ed, you leave the work at work and go home. Tons of time off for holidays that people in other professions don’t get. Good benefits. Absurdly great 401k (my university requires 5% and then matches 8%). Manageable work load, and easy communication with supervisors who are genuinely open to improvement, opportunity to do volunteer and service work within your paid working shifts. Very positive work environment.

      Cons: low pay, no clear path for promotion within a department, if you want to move up, you usually have to change departments or schools, consensus driven culture means changes are watching-paint-dry slow, faculty that doesn’t understand how strict regulations are and has animosity toward administration for things beyond our control, Slow periods with nothing to do, followed by oppressively busy rushes according to the academic calendar. Lack of performance driven incentives drives a poor cultural fits into apathy and resentment.

      It’s really about a culture fit – there’s no room for ambitious people, but it’s a great place for people who enjoy a simpler life, a slower pace, and the peace of mind that comes from doing a good day’s work that you can easily put behind you to spend time with your friends, family, and hobbies.

      1. cactus lady*

        I definitely agree with your assessment about public vs private institutions! I have worked at both and definitely prefer private. One thing to keep in mind though is that some private institutions are struggling, since enrollment is going down and the amount of tuition they need to subsidize is going up. Since they rely mostly on students for income (rather than grants or other sources of funding, which were a large portion of income for the departments I worked at in public institutions), I’d say it would be a good idea to look into how an institution is doing financially as best you can when considering to apply there.

      2. Catsaber*

        “because if you are aligned with the culture and mission” this is absolutely true in terms of any school. I worked at a small private university first, and hated it. I was not in line with their values, and so I didn’t fit in, and didn’t last long. I’m at a big state school now and while it definitely has its problems, I have enjoyed my time here, and hope to stay until retirement. But that’s just me. I’ve heard from a lot of colleagues at other state schools that it’s just awful. Being aligned with the culture makes a huge difference!

        “faculty that doesn’t understand how strict regulations” oh my lord, yes. I’d be a millionaire if I had a dollar for every time I told a faculty member “that’s actually illegal”. It’s not that they’re actively trying to break the law, there’s just a BUNCH of laws and codes and they feel like all of these rules hamper them.

        1. blackcat*

          I am the only person in my department who thoroughly enforces the policy of only sending emails to students’ institution emails. Everyone else replies to student emails that come from Gmail addresses and the like.
          But FERPA is a thing! No one seems to understand this!
          Just me, the lone child of lawyers in a sea of scientists.

          1. Catsaber*

            I’m currently a data warehouse developer who came here from data analysis. Believe me, I’ve fought the FERPA battles!! With high level administrators! who have been here longer than I have!!

      3. Cassie*

        I would slightly disagree that there aren’t emergencies in higher ed. For those in the non-academic side of things, sure – when it’s quitting time, you leave work behind and go home. For those on the research (or research-support) side, you may have to work late or over the weekend to meet deadlines. Some of which you don’t find out about until the day of.

    22. cactus lady*

      The benefits are fantastic (I get 6 weeks vacation a year and can actually use it!), the pay isn’t great, most places are pretty good with work/life balance.

    23. fundraising person*

      Just wanted to put in a plug for considering fundraising research. There are entry-level positions, you don’t need to have gone to grad school, and it is a great fit for people who are introverted but good at writing and research (the research being people). It’s helpful if you ever want to branch out most non-profits with large development staff have at least a few researchers as well. Just something to consider!

    24. Catsaber*

      I’ve spent my whole career in higher ed, mostly IT. I’ve worked at a small private school and a large state school in the DFW area. The pay in higher ed tends to be on the low side, but they often make up for that with great benefits (often, but not always). Also, because of the low pay, there’s just never enough people to get all the work done – which can drive you nuts sometimes, but you can also gain a lot of skills and experience you’d otherwise never get.

      Like most jobs, it comes down to the manager. I’ve had great ones and horrible ones at both schools. Overall I still prefer the big state school over the small private one, because it’s more diverse and inclusive, and I feel like they are making a difference in the world in terms of research.

    25. AnonNotmyNormalName*

      I work in higher ed but not in the US so some things may be a little different; however, one thing that I see that hasn’t been fully noted is culture with regards to faculty. In my experience (worked in both support units and departments) there is a huge culture difference once you’re in a department. The culture shock between industry and a support unit isn’t that great, but its a different world once you’re in an academic unit. Staff can very much be treated as second class citizens. I don’t fully agree with the ambition comment above that seems to depend a lot more on the department and the person. But I do agree that career paths aren’t always obvious.

      I do think it’s important to think about transferable skills to the private sector if possible when looking at jobs. And this may not be popular (and I realize the US may be different) but I also see a lot of value in someone having industry experience before working at a university.

      1. From My Seat in An Empty Academic Unit*

        I completely agree with this. If you are going into an academic unit or other position where you interact a lot with faculty, you are entering an alternate universe. Faculty are not bad, but they are certainly different.

        I’ve seen some people who care a lot about “fairness” have a lot of difficulty being a staff member who interacts with faculty – there are a different set of rules governing faculty.

    26. unigirl*

      I work in Higher Ed. It’s a great field and very interesting. A lot of Universities, especially private ones have wonderful benefits. My word of warning– there are LOTS of politics involved in EVERYTHING.

    27. Higher Ed Admin?*

      Thank you everyone for all of the wonderful comments! I really appreciate the detailed, thoughtful information you’ve shared.

  2. Peaches*

    I’ve been waiting since Wednesday for this thread!

    My problematic coworker is officially being let go. Her boss sent the following email on Wednesday:

    I have let (problematic coworker) know that we have decided to go another direction for the Teapot Specialist position. She has agreed to stay on as a temp while we look to fill that position until she finds something else. Please keep this in mind when asking her to help you with anything, it is entirely possible that she finds another job and leaves before she is finished. Do not make any promises to customers that this could affect. I will post this position today and I already have 2 candidates in mind so hopefully we will not have a long gap.

    I think by the time I sent her the email on what she needed to improve on, I think it was simply too late. Many of our sales people had already complained to her boss that she wasn’t working out. I think her boss figured they should let her go while she is still under the temp agency that we got her from.

    While I think this decision is for the best, I’m definitely frustrated that I’m going to invest so much time and effort in training another person for this position. I know that things like this are part of the job, but selfishly I wish she could have turned things around and worked out.

    Here’s to hoping the next person in her position is a better fit, more trainable, and excels at the position long term!

    1. Fortitude Jones*

      Aw, that sucks. I remember your posts about this, and was hoping for both your sakes that she would get it together, but apparently your intervention didn’t come soon enough. I hope she will land on her feet somewhere she can actually excel and that you get a more coachable candidate the next go round.

    2. Peaches*

      Also wanted to mention that I don’t think Problematic Coworker realizes that our boss gave us a heads up about her upcoming departure. She has acted totally normal, and has been talking to our sales people about her future plans for certain Teapot jobs.

      2. Good luck with that*

        Oh, dear, I hope she realizes that “until she finds something else” does NOT mean they won’t let her go as soon as they find someone else.
        I could totally see her dilly-dallying on a job search because she thinks there’s no hurry.

    3. CatCat*

      Well, this seemed inevitable once she failed to turn things around after your email to her. Your company is being pretty generous keeping her on until she finds something else.

      Sorry this will mean more work for you. I hope the next recruitment will lead to a successful fit!

    4. WellRed*

      I know it sucks to start over, but I think you’ll be so much better off in the long run. As long as the right person is hired, it’s easier to train a better (smarter, better fit, whatever) person than someone with the issues she’s had.

    5. The Man, Becky Lynch*

      It is waaaaaaaaaaay better to let her go while still under a temp agency contract, that’s for sure! Also I’m flinching at the fact that this was a temp placement [I haven’t followed your story, so I assume that it’s a temp-to-hire position] because that’s really typical for that kind of setup. I say that as a former temp who found permanent placement through the agency years ago and have had awful experiences with trying to use the agencies to fill spots throughout the years.

      It’s frustrating when someone doesn’t work out, don’t feel bad or selfish about that. When we hire someone, we always want them to work out and click because it’s a lot of effort to onboard! Now you’re back at square one. Best of luck with the new person when they arrive, hopefully soon!

    6. Myrin*

      Whew, glad it’s finally over!
      And while I understand the frustration, I think it would be better to think about the outcome in the long term – yeah, at the moment it’s a lot of effort and time to train a new person, but if they turn out to be great (or even just “normal”), the time and effort will only be short-lived; with your old coworker, it sounds like the time and effort essentially wasted never would’ve stopped.

  3. Llama Wrangler*

    Short version: When a colleague is being unprofessional, when is it better to address it directly, versus ignoring it and focusing on the substance of the work?

    The full story: We collaborate with another department (let’s call them teapot painters), and things have historically been somewhat tense — they tend to be a bit territorial, and ultimately senior leadership has advised we need to make nice with them. A Junior Teapot painter, Jane, is working with my direct report (John, also a teapot painter) on a project and she hasn’t been an asset — she only puts two hours a week in on painting pots with us, when we do it full time, she clearly lacks depth of training, and her communication to the tea cup painter is unreliable. However, she’s the only one who can place orders for pot handles, and we see above re: departmental relationships — we can’t get rid of this partnership, even if we wanted to.

    Four weeks ago, seemingly out of the blue, she sent an email to me and John, cc’ing her manager, and my manager, that had a clear CYA tone, along the lines of “We haven’t met to touch base on project progress all year [FALSE], and I’ve received no requests for pot handles from you.” At my coaching, John, responded to her just saying “Since we last checked in two weeks ago, here’s the new updates on the pots. I look forward to meeting next week during your project hours.” [Let’s just say in this story that pots take a long time to get to needing handles, and its not unexpected that we haven’t ordered any.]

    When next week came, Jane came, but then left before John could meet with her. He followed up with an email, which she never responded to. Then she missed the next two weeks without saying anything. So yesterday I dropped a note to her supervisor asking when we might next see her; supervisor responded just “She’ll be there next week.”

    Then Jane sent an email (again cc’ing me, John, and both of our supervisors) saying [actual language] “I have provided this information several times throughout the project, please pin or save it in your email. Below is information on how to submit orders to me for pot handles.” This was not what we needed to check in about. My best guess is that Jane’s supervisor said “they’re asking for information about pot progress, why haven’t you given it to them.”

    So, this is obviously something that is better addressed in person, but Jane almost never comes in person. Jane’s supervisor is notoriously unreliable, and again see the challenge of working with this department. Part of me feels like I need to have a meeting to get everyone on the same page (again; this has happened many times between our two departments) and part of me feels like we should just ignore it and keep doing our own work.

    What do you think? Is it better to address their unprofessionalism? Or is it such a losing battle that we should just let it go?

    1. Detective Amy Santiago*

      I’m a petty, petty bitch so I would reply all with something like:

      Hi Jane,

      We are familiar with the process for ordering the pot handles. Our weekly meetings are to discuss [whatever the purpose of the meetings is] and we are concerned that you haven’t attended since [date of last meeting she was at]. These meetings are vital for the success of this project. If you have a scheduling conflict, please let us know so we can find a more convenient time to schedule them.

      2. Rusty Shackelford*

        I don’t think this is petty at all. This is actually the best way to address her behavior – by laying out the facts. You don’t have to use the word “unprofessional” at all.

      3. Jadelyn*

        +1 I’d recommend this approach or something very similar.

        Alternatively, OP, can you talk directly to Jane’s manager and clarify the situation?

      4. It’s A Bird, It’s A Plane, It’s SuperAnon*

        I did this a week ago, but replied all to a condescending email response that didn’t answer my question.

        “Thank you for the summary but I asked for the name of the team lead for this effort.”

        1. Not So NewReader*

          “The team lead is Betsy Jones.

          And I am sorry to be unclear.

          I wanted to know if there was a better time for our meetings so you could be sure to be there.

          Please get back to me with a couple days and times that are good for you. Thank you!”

          People like this make me write very short emails. Verrrry short. Meanwhile you have an email trail that you can show your boss to illustrate the difficulty you are having getting a simple answer.

      5. ChimericalOne*

        I think that’s a perfectly appropriate response. You need to be clear that you’re not checking in about X, that you’re familiar with X already, and that you’re actually checking in about Y. You also need to be clear that these check ins are important (I assume they are?) and make it clear that you’re willing to be flexible to make them happen (so it’s on her if they’re not happening).

        All of the above needs to be communicated clearly, not just implied. Detective Amy Santiago’s sample text does so perfectly.

        You might even add something along the lines of, “Pots are typically ready for handles around 6 months after the initiation of a new teapot line, after X, Y, Z, and quality control reviews. These meetings assure that we will be prepared to order handles at that time,” so that she gets that you’re not just farting around (as my dad used to say) — you’re doing your work at the expected pace & you expect her to be available so she can do hers.

      6. Parenthetically*

        Yeah count me as another who doesn’t see this as petty at all, just smart!

      7. VLookupsAreMyLife*

        Agreed – I don’t see this as petty at all. I actually find it to be a great script, and I plan to squirrel it away for future use.

      8. OhGee*

        Yeah, YMMV but I’m with the Detective on this one. Flaky supervisor and crummy employee = be REALLY direct.

      9. Anon Anon Anon*

        +2. Not being petty. Just standing up for yourself. She’s the one creating the issues. You’re just responding. Stick to the facts and you’ll be fine.

        Also, start documenting your meetings if you aren’t already. Keep good old fashioned minutes with an attendence list and a bulleted list of topics discussed. Then, if this keeps happening, you can compile those docs into one PDF (so it can’t be edited) and attach it to an email about this. “Please see the attached meeting records. Let me know if I can answer any questions. Have a great day!”

    2. Rey*

      I personally vote for not addressing the unprofessionalism head on, especially because it sounds like their department as a whole is unprofessional in many areas. Instead I would focus on spelling out norms/expectations for this specific pot handle collaboration. I’m imaging a conversation that sounds like, “We’ve had some miscommunication in the past, so this meeting is just to get us all on the same page. We want to schedule a meeting that happens with X frequency to accomplish Y tasks. Does that work with Jane’s schedule? And what should we do for meetings when Jane isn’t available? (Will Jane be in charge of rescheduling at least one day before? Will Jane’s supervisor attend the meeting instead? Will Jane call into the meeting if she’s working from home/a different location?)” And if you sense some pushback you could add something like, “Can everyone commit to this for the next month so that we can see if this meets everyone’s needs? We can make changes at that point if needed.”

      If after you’ve set firm expectations that everyone agreed to, they still can’t pull it together on their end, I would compile a report for your supervisor. It should list exactly how Jane hasn’t met the expectations that were established, exactly what isn’t happening as a result, and exactly what the bottom line is (because Jane hasn’t met with us on X and Y, we failed to meet the deadline for so-and-so’s contract and lost $$/had to pay $$ in overages).

      1. Llama Wrangler*

        Thanks! The worst part is that we did this already, 3 months ago. I think we need to go to Jane’s grand-supervisor this time, but also, this iteration of the project is about to end, so I wonder whether we should just have the conversation in the context of a post-mortem.

        1. Rey*

          If you already did this 3 months ago, and you’re still dealing with missed meetings, etc. then it’s definitely time for conversation with grand-supervisor. It might depend on your culture if it should be included in post-mortem or a separate conversation, but that gives you a complete project timeline to spell out exactly where she failed and the exact results/consequences of her failure.

          This sounds so frustrating! I hope grand-supervisor is able to move forward with a real solution.

          3. Bobbin Ufgood*

            since you’ve already done so much work here, I 100% agree with everyone else that it’s time to go up the chain

    3. Flying Ghoti*

      I think you need to start documenting everything in e-mail as well. When you have a meeting with her, type up the minutes afterwards and send them out to her and her manager so expectations are clear. It’s a pain, but this way when issues come up its harder for her to try to deflect and make your department seem like the ones dropping the ball.

      2. cmcinnyc*

        Yes, this. Also, you say she came to a meeting but left before John got there? Does that mean John was a few minutes late and she bolted? If so, I’d address that upfront, too, as in, “Sometimes one of us is late for the Teapot Status Update Meeting due to other responsibilities. We ask that you allot the full 30 minutes to the meeting as requested and not leave after 5 minutes if John hasn’t arrived. Last week he was helping reconcile the paintbrush account and it took longer than expected. When you leave, we don’t get to follow up for two more weeks.” Or some such. I know people hate to wait, but if you have the time on your calendar, you can.

    4. Escapee from Corporate Management*

      Actually, Jane has done you a favor by copying your manager and hers. You (or your manager) now can go straight to her manager without concern that you are the one escalating the situation. I suggest you do so without Jane in the room if possible. Have a concise brief of the situation and if at all possible, a proposed solution. Then follow-up with a summary email to document everything. If her manager is unreliable, then take it up a level. Again, you are not the one escalating the situation since Jane, in her CYA mode, already has done so.

      BTW, if both your manager and Jane’s manager report to the same person, you can go straight to that person. Again, since both managers were dragged into the situation by Jane’s emails, it’s the logical next step.

      1. Llama Wrangler*

        Yeah, I think you’re right. My manager likely needs to bring Jane’s manager and Jane’s grand-manager into the room together. Jane’s manager is definitely unreliable, and (like Jane) will go right into CYA mode.

    5. De-Archivist*

      It’s time to roll this up the food chain. I’m not sure where you are in the hierarchy in relation to Jane’s manager, if he’s your peer, you need to address this specific issue with him specifically. If you’re not his peer, then you need to bring it to your manager who *should* bring it to Jane’s supervisor. If you’ve brought it to John and it hasn’t helped, then it’s time to go to your manager (presumably who’ll speak to Jane’s manager).

      However, I wouldn’t frame this as a lack of professionalism, per se. I mean, it is unprofessional. But you need to look at what the results of Jane’s inattention are on the project. Do you have concerns about deadlines being missed? Is your time having to put in overtime/additional hours to complete the work that Jane misses? Is there a cost impact? Think about how you can frame this as concerns about the work and not about Jane personally. This makes it harder for more passive managers to chalk this up as a personality conflict.

      Likewise, I’m coaching you to coach John to be more explicit in his emails. E.g., “Jane, since we weren’t able to meet for the last two weeks, I have the following questions/concerns/requests …” and then lay them out. Then, you/he can say, “If you’d rather discuss this in person, I’m available at the following times …” and then schedule it. Same with her attempt at a vaguely passive-aggressive email, “Jane, I appreciate at info about ordering processes, but there must have been some miscommunication about our needs. Actually, we have questions about” whatever it is.

      And finally, I’m pretty gutsy personally (YMMV), so if you’ve got the political capital to spend and you’re not getting the results you need, you can always say, “Boss, as you know, we’ve had repeated issues with getting Teapot Painting to assist with our part of the process. What I’m proposing is finishing up our portion of the project and passing it on to Jane when we’re done/dropping Jane from the project entirely and requesting someone different from the Painting Department/whatever works outside of this metaphor.” Tread very lightly here, though, because you don’t want to blow up your own career to spite Jane. Only do it if it makes sense in context and you would be insulated from the fallout (or wouldn’t care about fallout).

    6. designbot*

      I think I’d be pretty direct with something like:
      Jane, it seems we’re talking across each other a bit here. Our desire it to touch base on the project overall, including (aspects X, Y, Z) which we’d been collaborating on, not just handle orders. Let’s the three of us plus (herboss) set down sometime in the next week to get on the same page. I’ll check schedules and follow up with a calendar invite.

      1. Llama Wrangler*

        That is more or less what I ended up going with, though we’re leaving Jane’s boss out of it since both of them tend to get defensive. My boss is going to see how she responds and then elevate it to Jane’s grandboss directly as well.

  4. Sunflower*

    Who out there has a job where a large part of your job is showing/proving your value to the organization? I work in event planning for professional services. In my last 2 positions (biglaw and big consulting), my team was constantly battling to prove our worth. I’d say 50% of my job was doing things that weren’t actually necessary for me to perform my job- it was to prove to someone else simply that I could do it. And it’s not just partners or stakeholders I had to do this for- it’s other people in similar support functions as well.

    I wrote in 2 weeks ago about being unmotivated at my new job and thanks to ‘Been In Events Before’ for hitting the nail on the head that I’m frustrated working somewhere that my job isn’t seen as valuable. As I explore different career paths, I’m curious how many other people are in this boat.
    Do you think it’s your company, job function, industry or everything?

    1. Ella*

      I’ve been in that position before! For me, it was job function in the industry. Also, until people put on large events, they have NO idea what it takes to put on events, since it’s one of those jobs (like a graphic designer, copywriter, whatever) that people think they CAN do.

      I did ultimately move on from that role, and they downsized my team shortly after I left. You might enjoy working for a specialized events agency more.

      1. Pay no attention to the man behind the curtain*

        As a graphic designer I can absolutely cosign this. No one really knows what we do even within my own larger umbrella department of public affairs and marketing — it’s not just make things that look pretty, and there isn’t a magic computer button that does all the work for me. I have an extensive knowledge of printing processes, ink, varnishes, paper, etc. and how to bid out jobs to vendors so that what we receive back is exactly what is expected and it stays within budget. If a project is going to mail I have to know postal regulations — I am a certified Mailpiece Design Professional — otherwise that piece may get rejected by the Post Office or incur exorbitant postage. I need to have a basic familiarity with some laws such as copyright and fair use, especially within academia. People think they can learn a few basic skills in Photoshop and be “creative” and they are a graphic designer. I’m constantly feeling like others are getting credit for what I do since I can’t exactly sign my name at the bottom, like Monet. I’ve had people hand me samples of my own work and ask if I know anyone on campus who can do stuff like this — they think IT does that because computers = IT.

    2. MissDisplaced*

      Yes, this. I work for a large company in a somewhat newish department. I spend so much time making presentations for internal audiences, both executive and regular departments. While some of this is indeed necessary, it’s overkill.
      I also have to do a lot of “proving” as to why other departments should help me get even the most basic work completed. These departments hold the keys to the technology, and I’m not given access to it to do the work myself. It’s a huge time suck and frustrating. Time would be better spent getting new business and customers, not justifying why we’re doing it.

    3. Fortitude Jones*

      Well, I’m currently in a job that’s like this, but it’s because it’s a brand new role that was created in my department to provide more professional quality writing to some sales folks who aren’t writers, but are expected to participate in the proposal writing process, to write compelling content to level up the submissions that go out the door so win rates improve, and to serve as kind of a QA step of approval before anything is sent to customers for evaluation. My boss and grandboss knows they need this role (and they’re smart enough to be hiring another person to assist with this), but some of the sales team, and even my grandboss’s boss, are still kind of skeptical, so I’m going to reach out to great grandboss and get his feedback on what more he thinks my department should be doing and how he’d like to see my role progress to ensure we’re all on the same page. I’d hate for great grandboss to decide six months from now that they don’t really need this role, and then I’m out of a job for the first time in eight years.

    4. Rainy*

      My department has been doing stellar work for so long that we’ve literally just fallen under the radar to divisional leadership, who are now convinced that because our wheels don’t squeak, we’re not doing anything, not that we’ve got our shit dialed in.

      We implemented a massive tracking project over the last six months to give absolute specifics to divisional leadership about what our office is doing, and the super-specific data has changed the tenor of the conversation, but where before it was “you aren’t actually doing anything at all” now divisional leadership is like “well, if you’re doing this much you can definitely all do more” when honestly, many of us can’t.

    5. WellRed*

      “I’d say 50% of my job was doing things that weren’t actually necessary for me to perform my job- it was to prove to someone else simply that I could do it.”

      I don’t actually see how spending half your time doing unnecessary stuff proves value, but I can certainly see how you would be unhappy in the position if this is the case.

    6. Not So NewReader*

      Eh, I can remember a point in my life where I found myself repeatedly in conversations that involved, “The superficial things I do are more important to people than my real work.” One woman commented to me she sees the same at home. She can spend the day organizing a new family budget on the computer and what gets noticed is the mess that is still on the kitchen counter/coffee table/whatever. So yes, there is some sexism going on in her story but there is also an overarching problem where we (society) do not value what we cannot see, leaving the worker to have to explain it to us.

      A huge example I see in NY is the failure of municipalities to keep up maintenance on their infrastructure. Everyone wants pretty parks, no one cares about maintaining sewers until things get nasty. We don’t value stuff that is not immediately apparent to us.

      Suggestions:
      You can be a part of the rebellion against this norm by taking an interest in what others are up against.

      For me, I found it helpful to weave noticeable things in between the real work. This way I appeared to be of value and on the private side I personally KNEW I was of value. But those things happened by the means of two different activities.

      Going into a different perspective, we live in a very complex world. No other generation has seen this level of complexity. It becomes part of the job to explain to people why what we are doing is of value. You can craft go-to explanations that are brief yet informative. As an example, one group I am in just met with a team of engineers. I was SUPER impressed about how they broke down their complex work so we could follow along. Their patience was exemplary. Additionally, they were able to talk about the human impact side of the project. “Yes people get concerned about costs. And it’s also true that nothing is free. However, in the past here is what we have done with that concern…..”

      They talked with us for an hour in a similar manner. It was super impressive. My group of people are not engineers and we cannot even come close to faking it. Our questions betrayed our lack of understanding. But our group needs this work done. The engineers want work. So here we are.

      I am seeing this technique more and more and I am starting to believe this will be a norm in decades to come.

      Now. Here’s the kicker. Once you explain what you have done or will do, are the people happy/grateful? You know, I can work with the idea that not everyone is up to speed on everything. But I cannot move through the thanklessness. I don’t need much. A “Hey, that looks great!” and I am all set here. But when I see attitude/whinny/griping/etc. I start to think, “Why bother!”

      It could be you just worked for a bunch of ungrateful people. And by extension you don’t see value yourself.

    7. designbot*

      Yep. My job is one that would often be a consulting function to the primary stakeholders in my office. They do one sort of design and I do another more focused sort. They often think that anyone with any design background could do my job, and put out some really terrible stuff that reflect badly on our department, though we had no idea the terrible things were happening. So I spend a lot of time trying to prove that we can do our jobs better than they can do our jobs, but of course nicely without offending anyone.

    8. Gumby*

      I used to work as software QA and while I don’t think people thought the job wasn’t necessary, they definitely thought it was something *anybody* could do and that it was less important than anything else.

      Like, “we have a summer intern who has no experience and mostly uses computers to play games” = send them to QA.

      Like “We want to be intentional about hiring people from [disadvantaged community] so we plan to waive the normal things we’d look for in hiring” = hey, they can do QA! (Actually, I thought it was a really really great program and we got one excellent hire from it. Also several who were less-than-excellent in the role who didn’t work out long-term. I do agree that removing barriers to entry in tech is worthwhile. The “any random person off the street can do QA” is what rankled.)

      Like “We’re totally behind schedule but you can do all of your testing in 2 days instead of a week so we’re not moving the release date.”

      1. Bostonian*

        As a user/software SME, this is maddening. I would so much rather wait the extra 3 days for the new software update instead of getting the release with a bunch of issues and having to: 1) troubleshoot why my staff is suddenly having all these problems they never had before 2) interacting with an unresponsive support team to fix said problems 3) having to send out messages to my team describing the bugs and the workarounds 4) waiting until the *next* update 4 months later that will supposedly have all the bugs worked out.

    9. Formerly Arlington*

      So, I have been in social media/content related roles since 2008, and I’d say the first half of that time largely required explaining why our work was valuable and hoping I didn’t get cut. The second half, my opportunities really skyrocketed. But, I also went through a nasty reorg last year where I had to prove that my team was a better investment than an agency. I lost. I was downsized and now I am at an agency that specializes in that field. So anyway, YES. Both because the actual work I did was at one time questioned and then because of corporate cost-cutting. And even now, at the agency, you never know what is going to happen. It’s super stressful, but I have a lot of passion for what I do and I try to keep that in mind as I spin wheels demonstrating relevace!!!

    10. Not A Morning Person*

      No real advice, just commiseration. “Everyone” (not really everyone, but enough) thinks they can be a trainer, everyone thinks they can write, everyone thinks they can record a video, everyone thinks they can speak on camera, everyone thinks they can be a manager, or teach ( or just insert whatever skill you worked hard at and now looks easy to people who don’t have that experience).
      I sympathize. Years ago I was in a creative role and was in a meeting with our corporate artist when our new manager came in to speak to us about some assignment and in our conversation chose to say to us, “Anyone can do your jobs.” I’m not sure either of us or our supervisors were ever able to change his viewpoint. He was brought in to get experience in “corporate” because his entire career had been in operations and he was considered a high potential. He never got out of the mindset that there are hard and fast rules, like how he was judged by numbers in operations, and he didn’t like it when other departments chose to change their decisions and impact our schedules and priorities. For example, Dept. A asked our dept for support on a teapot program management training video, but then changed their mind, his reponse was always, “But they have to! We agreed to their request and we have to do that!” Even though it no longer fit their plans, because they had asked us for support and we had agreed to work with them, we better force them to continue to work on something they no longer want to do, or else! Several times I was threatened with a poor performance rating because another department’s priorities changed. Like any of us, including our VP would have any influence over that. I don’t know what happened with him, but I got out of the department when it became apparent that we were the training ground for people who had no experience in a corporate office and needed to learn how to work with other departments. It was quite frustrating.

      1. DerJungerLudendorff*

        That sounds infuriatingly stressful. Someone really screwed up by putting that guy in that position.

    11. Accidental Project Manager*

      My CEO has actually suggested I should get a pay cut because ‘Project management isn’t valuable.’ As background, I was hired as a do-it-all person with the understanding most of it would be somewhat technical and also political, so me having an MD was necessary. My CEO is incredibly unorganized, so I’ve been doing more do-it-all and less technical work, largely a ton of sophisticated project management.

      It is incredibly frustrating and I’m taking it as a sign that I need to move on.

    12. Cymru*

      Talk to any librarian and you will get a whole community of people who understand this woe.

    13. Inamina*

      I had a job like that – I had provide photographic evidence and signed papers to prove that I’d been doing my job, whilst everyone else’s there could pull their figures from the system.

  5. Bubbleon*

    I’m struggling with how to work with an impossible coworker and I’m out of ideas and at my wits end. This person thinks all internal support and quality assurance teams are hers to command (they aren’t) and gets combative and defensive if you push back on anything she says, even the most innocent things. She just seems determined to take everything the wrong way or find something wrong with something in every step someone else takes.

    I’ve told my team not to take it personally, we’ve spent hours editing emails to take out any hint of what she might read as argument, and I’ve flagged multiple things to her manager that were really inexcusable levels of attitude about things she was actively doing wrong. That’s helped for a few minutes at a time but overall I’m just exhausted at the though of having to work with this person, and unfortunately because of the company structure there’s just no way we can get away from it.

    Heeelp.

    1. Detective Amy Santiago*

      Can you make sure all communication with her is via email so you have a written record of everything?

      1. Bubbleon*

        It pretty much already is, but even when I have piles of examples her manager hasn’t really pushed back on her general attitude much.

    2. Rey*

      It sounds like you’re trying to mediate things (spending hours editing emails? that’s nuts) to try and not make her combative and defensive, that no managers have truly handled her poor attitude, and that you’re exhausted. Since none of your extra work has changed her response, what if you just stopped trying to mediate it? Write emails that normal people would agree are polite, and then she’ll still get combative and defensive. I don’t know that it changes much, but at least you would have hours back to do something else…

      2. Bubbleon*

        Unfortunately, we tried this and it ended up with us spending hours afterwards explaining ourselves and clarifying why we’d taken one action over another (nearly always because it’s our SOP and not something she really should’ve had to question), so we try to front load everything as much as possible to avoid the back and forth after she misreads something and starts asking people if they understand key parts of their jobs they’ve been doing for years.

        1. embertine*

          And that’s the time to push back more firmly. You can explain that this is the SOP, and then decline to explain further. If she continues to ask questions, simple say that you’re busy and refer her back to the procedure. Be very boring about it, refuse to engage, and she will eventually learn that it doesn’t get her the attention she wants. Be prepared for an extinction burst initially though, where she gets even more disruptive and complains about your team to higher ups. Don’t worry about that – it will be obvious to anyone sensible that she’s acting out.

        2. Kathenus*

          So, the next step is to stop spending those hours clarifying and explaining, and I mean a full stop. She’s in control right now and you are responding and continuing to play defense. Just stop doing so, treat her like you would anyone else, and let her rant and rave to her hearts content. Come up with a stock response – ‘we’re following normal protocols’, ‘thanks for your feedback but this is the course we’re taking’, or whatever.

          Stop worrying about her attitude, just ignore that part completely and don’t play the game. Be unfailingly professional, in writing so there’s documentation, but you need to stop reinforcing her behavior or she has no reason to continue. Also suggest that you loop in your manager on the issue and how you are going to (not) respond going forward, so hopefully they’ll have your back.

          1. Kathenus*

            Sorry, typo, meant ‘you need to stop reinforcing her behavior or she has no reason to STOP’.

        3. Psyche*

          Explaining yourselves to her or someone else? Because it might be worth it to simply reply that it is your SOP and if she has a problem with it she needs to go to (insert someone higher up the chain). Then she either has to back down or waste someone else’s time who probably won’t be willing to put up with it for long.

        4. Rey*

          Yep, at least in my office, we’d just say, “You can read the specific SOP here: link” and call it good. On the other hand, you said above that she thinks she’s in charge when she’s really not. So another approach you could try is, “Actually, so-and-so oversees/manages/approves this.” And that has the added benefit of pushing her up the ladder to someone beside you, ideally someone who has more authority and gets paid more than you to deal with dumb garbage like this.

        5. NW Mossy*

          You can dial back on that back-and-forth too!

          “Why did you put green-and-yellow blankets on the llamas?!”
          “Because that’s standard when we send them to Packers games – it’s all in the documentation. Have a great one!”
          “That’s ridiculous – are you sure you understand the llama-blanketing process, Bubbleon?”
          “Yup, got it down – hope the clarification helps!”

          The idea is to be cheerfully short and sweet, rather than letting her draw you into crazy-making debates that leave you wondering if up is down and left is right. You’re still greasing the skids of the relationship by being kind, but without rising to the bait of her insistence on having everything Her Way.

          And also, her manager sucks. If you have a good relationship with her boss, or a good relationship with someone her boss trusts, it’s well past time to tell them what you’ve told us. It is particularly valuable to do this if you can quantify the costs of her behavior (extra time in meetings, delays, etc.) and tie those costs to stuff that her boss cares about deeply.

      3. WellRed*

        yes, this is way too much handholding and managing of her emotions to put on your staff. I’m guessing you don’t have standing for a come to jesus talk with her or her manager?

        1. Bubbleon*

          I’ve already had a mini one with her and I think her manager had one with her earlier this week, so I’m hoping that one might have started to sink in but not getting too optimistic about it.

    3. embertine*

      My advice would be to stop tailoring your emails to remove any hint of what you think might offend her. If she is the kind of person who is fueled by righteous indignation instead of the more sensible choice of coffee, it is never going to be enough. She wants to be offended. Communicate to her the same as you would to any other colleague, make sure to get as much of it as possible in writing, and trust that any reasonable person reading your exchanges is going to see where the problem is. Chances are she has already got herself a reputation among anyone who has to work with her regularly, especially her boss. Can you imagine trying to manage this person!

    4. Dr. Doll*

      Seems like you need to at least stop putting such effort into editing emails, since she’s going to take everything wrong anyway.

    5. cheese please*

      So so sorry you have exhausting coworkers. Just like with rage road drivers, remind yourself regularly that their attitude and feelings are THEIR PROBLEM. You are not responsible for making them feel good. They’re the ones having a crappy day and getting hurt because of an email, and with practice, you can choose to let it slide.

      When I’ve worked with really defensive people (we’ll call him Andy), and if it had no effect on how I was perceived by my employees or manager, I would take ownership of whatever Andy thought was my fault and move on. Instead of trying to reason with Andy about why my team missed a deadline, I would just say, “Yep, Andy, it’s all my fault, it will finish X days late. Let’s move on” and since he just liked the energy rush from arguing with people in meetings, it diffused the situation pretty quickly. His attitude was highly unprofessional, but management found it easier to take his side than to control him.

      Not sure if that helps much. Really I just worked hard at not letting the “Andy”s in my job bother me. When it got really bad I would tell myself “At least that person isn’t my spouse/parent/child/uncle etc.”

      1. Bubbleon*

        I think we’re sort of halfway to that point. Everyone knows it’s a her problem, but we still feel like we need to manage the actual work parts. The biggest problem is that she’s right about 1 in 500 things she’s questioned, and that’s what’s given her the steam to go on. and on. and on.

        1. cheese please*

          Ahhhh. SO hard. Also, I can see how it’s easier to put in mental effort into crafting an email than expending emotional effort in managing her reactions. So, maybe just set limits. “I will spend X minutes crafting this email” etc.

          Re: SOPs, maybe have written documentation that she agreed to follow X and Y and hold her to that in the future. ie “Per our email in March, we agreed to follow the teapot paint pattern laid out in SOP 31. I expect us to follow the same pattern for the August teapot. I’ve attached the project overview documents as reference for the team”. It’s most effective if this comes from a manager, but may still be effective.

          Good luck!

    6. De-Archivist*

      Don’t engage. Be polite, professional, and firm. You manage work. You cannot manage someone else’s feelings.

    7. The Man, Becky Lynch*

      If her manager can’t get her under control, is there someone else to escalate the issue to? She needs to be retrained and taken care of, this isn’t acceptable and by allowing her to keep going, holding her hand and over-explaining things, you’re creating more of a monster. She’s being allowed to create a toxicity for some reason, do you have any reason why that is? Is her boss just too hands off for the task?

      Stop holding her hand. Follow SOP to the letter and do nothing else. Let her spin her wheels and burn herself out. It’s like a child having a tantrum in many ways. And in the end it’s the company’s job to make sure these attitudes are kept in check and dealt with!

      1. ChimericalOne*

        Agreed that this needs to be escalated. This person should be put on a PIP, at a minimum, or let go (ideally). She’s wasting your time and your energy — both valuable resources of the company — and likely decreasing both employee engagement and employee satisfaction. You’re going to start losing people (if you haven’t already) because of her unprofessionalism, and you need to make that crystal clear to her manager and, if need be, someone above that. (Your own manager?)

        Attitude problems are worse for productivity than simple incompetence, in many cases. A culture starts to form around it, and that’s hard to shake.

    8. Pay no attention to the man behind the curtain*

      I realize this will depend heavily on your senior management and how much you want to play a long-game here, but like everyone else, I think you should stop editing emails and walking on eggshells, specifically so she’ll have outrageous reactions…lots of them…lots and lots and lots of them. At first management might try to calm her down and tell you to smooth everything over, but if she keeps going to them, her drama will eventually get too much. So far, you’ve been shielding MANAGEMENT from the worst of her behavior and attitude — yes, yourself too I realize, but mostly them because they aren’t hearing the maddening “squeak” nearly as often as you do.

    9. Not So NewReader*

      I would go back to her manager and say, “Since every communication upsets Sue, we will be sending our email to you and asking you to interface. I cannot ask my team to continue going through what they have been going through with Sue.”

      I think you can see by now, that no matter how nicely you word it Sue is not going to be happy with you/your team. She has already decided to find a problem, if there is no problem then she will make up a problem. You will not win here. EVER.

      Part of what we are being compensated for is our willingness to get along with others. I would say that exact sentence to the other manager. Sue is not willing to get along with others.

      You can’t change her, you can only change how you respond to it.

      When you say combative, do you mean actual fists/gestures of physical harm? If yes, please report this to your own boss immediately. Don’t make your crew keep coping with this.
      If you mean it as “extremely argumentative” then my suggestion is do the above with directing all Sue-type questions to her boss.

      You did not ask but I have to share: My wise friend told me “any time you see a behavior three times then you probably have a pattern. And you need to address this pattern.” So while you may never encounter another Sue you will see other things. Look for the pattern of three, then address it. The longer something like this goes on the bigger a nightmare it is. People’s sense of entitlement only grows and by the time you do try to correct it then you have a real hot mess. The earliest intervention is the best. I had a Sue get me once and after that I was older and wiser.

      2. MassMatt*

        I agree, great comment/suggestion, but I would extend the wise friend’s saying not just to the problem coworker but to the organization as a whole. So far you say you have brought this issue to the problem coworker’s manager and they have not appeared interested. Either the message was not communicated strongly enough or you have a problem manager and possibly a problem organization, not just a problem coworker.

        If everyone is tiptoeing around this problem employee like a missing stair and “oh well, that’s how she is!” Then the whole organization will suffer. All because a manager lacks the guts or interest to deal with her problem employee.

    10. Hedgehug*

      I used to be her, the girl you are having so much trouble with. Any slight correction, criticism, etc., I would get very defensive. It’s not you. It’s her. Speaking from experience, this is severe self-doubt, fear of not being in control, fear of failing, lack of self esteem, and self-hate. When I would get a critique, I hated myself for not having done something right/perfect the first time and would try to defend my way out of the criticism to protect my ego. What saved me from my own self-destructive attitude was my boss calling me out directly (in private) over my attitude. She handed me the harsh truth that people were scared of approaching me, my behaviour was cloaking me in an angry shell no one wanting to come near and when they HAD to approach me it was nothing but dread on their part. She challenged me to consider privately why I was acting that way and that my mistakes were ok. This talk needs to come from whoever her supervisor is. It was the “your coworkers are afraid of you” line that really drove into my heart and changed me.

  6. straws*

    Our company anniversary is coming up and we want to have an event. We’re small (20 employees), but pretty diverse in preferences, so I want to get as much feedback to try and make this as enjoyable as possible. What are some questions I can pop into a survey to help guide us to a good decision? Right now I’m thinking about preferred time of day, guests or not, type of activity (meal, purely social, games, physical activity). Anything else I can include?

    Also, our CEO is about as far on the extroversion scale as you can get, while most of the rest of us are in the middle at best. So any tips on how to rein that in and/or balance it out are appreciated too!

    1. Excel Slayer*

      If there are different location options (e.g. close to work, in a town centre near you etc) then that can really affect attendance

    3. Sled dog mama*

      Could you just send the survey to the “rank and file” and not CEO that way when CEO gets super excited over X you can point to the survey that everyone else isn’t going to enjoy X.

      I think also pinning down what the CEO wants people to get out of the event would be good that way you can steer CEO back to things that meet those goals.

    5. Aspiring Chicken Lady*

      Could you also consider doing a series of things? Not 3 different parties, but maybe a little branded item swag bag (coffee cup … some chocolates … card on card stock from the CEO saying “woo hoo 20 years) on every desk; special treats on Friday morning (not just the same donuts you get all the time); half-day outing to a local Place of Interest That We Never Go To Because We Live Here on Friday afternoon that could morph into a Let’s get drinks or food after for those who care to.

      That way everyone’s included, it’s interesting but not overblown, and introverts or people with things going on can slip away having participated, and no one thing has to spark ecstasy in everyone.

      1. Wells*

        This is absolutely perfect. I work in an office of about 80 people that includes extraverts (from all the customer service teams) and introverts (data processing and support). Our social committee has done a great job over the last few years of doing this kind of scattered celebration for holidays…. a card and a treat on everyone’s desk, a few low-commitment games or challenges that are really truly optional, and a potluck that people can drift in and out of. I love having the ability to adjust my level of participation to my mood, health, and level of busy-ness.

    6. The Man, Becky Lynch*

      My best way of reeling in Super Excited Pants Execs or in my case Super Cultured and Kinda Dorky Execs who are among a bunch of ragamuffins who would rather go play laser tag than to go to the museum, is to just remind them that “this is for the group and the group leans this way, I asked around, the survey says /this/ not /your improv idea or whatever/”

      Submit them with facts and push gentle. Say “Great idea boss but we’re actually thinking low-key is better for everyone’s tastes, let’s not pressure them, this is a celebration and we’ve made it this far due to our great staff, we should really try to be doing what they best respond to!” So don’t say “Dumb idea, everyone here likes chicken salad sandwiches not a deep sea fishing trip!” [Not that I think you’re leaning that way but just to drive home my point of keep the ego intact but steer towards the preferences of the staff side] Like steering the kid bee-lining to the dessert table first towards the entrees.

    7. Stephanie*

      I would say just to remind the CEO that the event is to celebrate the employees. If he really wants something super social/high energy, perhaps you can have other activities as an option.

    8. Alex the Alchemist*

      Perhaps have the option to say if there’s an activity that you would absolutely NOT want to do/be able to participate in (so long as the survey is anonymous). That way, for someone who is prevented from doing physical activity or any other activity, you can be sure to include them in whatever you do.

    10. R2D2*

      Maybe close the office early on a Friday for a nice lunch with drinks? Then everyone gets to leave from there for the weekend. :)

    11. zora*

      My suggestion for a survey like you are discussing is to put some as multiple choice, with a blank spot for “Other”. Some people have trouble thinking of ideas out of nowhere, but having a few options to bounce off of helps a lot.
      So, put exactly the examples you put as multiple choice under “Type of Activity” , but then have a blank spot for those who do come up with their own ideas.
      Same for location: [In the office] [at a park] [at a restaurant], etc.

  7. Kramerica Industries*

    Looking for advice on how to deal with a coworker who has a mental illness, but is also generally not a good person. My team has 5 people, the newest is Wanda. Wanda has openly disclosed that she sees a therapist for a mental illness, and we’re all very receptive and supportive of this. This includes ensuring her that we’re open to talk if she’s having a bad day. However, now that we’ve all gotten closer, it seems that Wanda has dropped her filter and when she’s venting or making comments, they tend to make us uncomfortable. For example, she has made homophobic comments about people in her personal life. At work, if you ask her to do something, she’ll say “I don’t like when people tell me what to do” or “Why should I listen to you? Were you hired to be Teapot Designer? No, I was.” Pushing back by saying something like “You’re definitely the expert! I just thought I’d share my idea” returns a response of something sarcastic like “Well doesn’t that make you special”. She also seems to be the kind of person who likes the focus to be on herself. If another coworker is telling a story, she’ll insert her own experience, then when you try to say “I wanted to hear what Bruno has to say”, she’ll retort with how rude it is to interrupt her/not let her finish talking.

    My big trigger for not wanting to talk to her anymore is her story about how she was at the airport with her emotional support dog (she said she bought a certificate off Amazon) and her dog bit another dog. She told it as if it was a funny story because she thought it was cute that “other dogs don’t know how to handle [her dog’s] big personality”. I just can’t be around someone whose emotional support animal bites other dogs! So I told my other coworkers that I wanted to stop giving her the validation by laughing at her stories or letting her bad “your voice doesn’t matter” attitude continue. However, my coworkers are genuinely concerned that because of the mental illness, if we stop giving her the validation in the way she wants, she may feel unloved and trigger a really bad response. I should mention that on her bad days, she’s really noticeably low. So, I get where they’re coming from, but there must be a way to handle a crappy personality while still being sensitive to mental illness. I personally haven’t witnessed her saying anything like this to other people, so I’m not sure if this is just her sense of humour or security if she sees us more as friends instead of coworkers.

    1. Not Me*

      Have you talked to her directly about it? Or her manager? Having a mental illness doesn’t give someone the right to be rude and a bigot at work. It’s totally possible to have a conversation with someone about unacceptable behavior that has a mental illness. If she isn’t capable of handling that type of thing her doctor should excuse her from work.

      1. Moray*

        Yeah, saying “I faked having a service animal” is pretty much the same thing as saying “I’m truly a bad person” IMO.

        1. designbot*

          Or at very least “I don’t mind calling actual emotional difficulties into question by taking advantage of breaks meant for folks with them.”

        2. TheFacelessOldWomanWhoSecretlyLivesinYour House*

          ESAs are not service animals–they are support for people who need them and have some protections like in housing but they are not granted service animals status. You don’t need a certificate for an ESA or service animal but ESAs often require doctor notes for housing, travel, etc.

      2. Venus*

        It generally results from someone who has a dog who would *never* qualify in an honest process. It’s awful of her because it also makes life a lot more difficult for others with support dogs (I know someone who had to retire their guide dog because of aggressive untrained dogs).

        1. Jadelyn*

          Considering that her “support animal” *bit* another animal…I’m going to go ahead and say yeah, that’s a dog that would never be permitted to qualify as a legit support animal.

          1. TheFacelessOldWomanWhoSecretlyLivesinYour House*

            Her dog may very well be a support animal–they’re not service animals. (And service animals can bit too, just like people can lash out despite thei rtraining. Because they have rotten days/traumas/issues as well,)

    3. ThatGirl*

      Mental illness is not an excuse for being an a-hole. You can correct her and challenge her on her views without it being about her mental health issues. If SHE takes it that way, frankly, that is her problem. You don’t have to let bad behavior go unchecked, and you can encourage her to handle any problems on her own/with her therapist/doctor/etc.

      (I say this as someone whose husband is both a licensed therapist and also has his own mental health struggles.)

    4. CatCat*

      You can totally correct rude behavior in the moment. Being rude is not acceptable. She may “feel unloved”? Please! It is not the coworkers job to coddle her or put up with rude behavior!

      Some things to say:
      When she says homophobic things, “I don’t want to hear comments like that.”
      Stories about her biting dog, “I don’t think it’s funny that your dog bit another dog.”
      Snapping at you when you ask her to do something, ignore any snide remarks, “So are you going to be able to do [thing]?”

      I don’t know if having a mental illness contributes to her lack of filter here, but even if so, that may be an explanation, but it’s not an excuse. She needs to behave professionally in the workplace. This is true of everyone.

    5. Jules the 3rd*

      sooooo: Mental illness is not an excuse for being an a$$hole. Says a person with a mental illness.

      There are some old posts here and at Captain Awkward about how to navigate work as a person with a mental illness, or working with people with mental illnesses. Google Captain Awkward #188 for the most popular one, but CA 1116 and 450 are also good ones. 450 is a classic.

      I lean strongly towards just treating them as if they don’t have a mental illness. Respectfully, of course, but call that stuff out as it happens (“homophobia is Not Ok” and “Your right to have a dog with you ends when you let your dog harm other peoples’ dogs”). Your ‘stop laughing at horrible statements’ is a great reaction. If you are not her manager, you probably don’t have standing to have a ‘big picture’ conversation with her, but you always have standing to tell someone ‘that was unkind. Please don’t say it again.’

      It is your job to be respectful and pleasant; it is not your job to manage her mental illness or accept her bad behavior. It is her job to manage those.

      Polite but firm. Consistent. You can be extra warm when her behavior is good, but you don’t have to jump in to comfort her if she cries at your boundaries.

    6. Kuododi*

      I’m going to hold off attempting to comment on the specifics of your particular job situation as well as Wanda’s mental health diagnosis…(lack of specific information as well as being out of my frame of reference.). What I can say from years of experience in the mental health recovery community is despite your coworker’s good intentions…noone is responsible for Wanda’s behavior except Wanda.
      By that I mean there’s no way to externally manage whether or not she has a negative response to any given situation.

      All of that is to say I would recommend firm but kind behavior toward her, maintaining professionally appropriate boundaries and holding her accountable for deviations. I’ve never heard of a circumstance where a mental health diagnosis was license to behave like a “brat.” (Lacking a more accurate description at the moment.). At the end of it all, I would argue not holding her accountable for inappropriate behavior does her no good bc it keeps both Wanda and management from evaluating if she’s even able to fulfill the requirements of the job.
      (Of course if her circumstances fall under ADA, my suggestions may need to be modified however the overall idea would not change.). Hope this is in some way helpful. Best wishes.

    7. LJay*

      It’s not you or your coworkers job to manage her mental illness.

      Handle her like any other coworker with a crappy personality.

      If she feels unloved she needs to get love from the people in her life who should be loving her like her family and friends, or get help for her mental illness in the form of therapy and medication, etc.

      The most role an employer should have in helping an employee with mental illness is making reasonable accommodations for them (having to laugh at homophobic jokes is not likely to be a reasonable accommodation) to enable them to do the job they were hired to do, having a decent health care plan that covers mental health, and having an EAP and referring the employee to the EAP when needed. (And obviously not bullying them or singling them out or treating them differently than other employees).

      The rest of it – people with mental illnesses are adults too, and are responsible for their own behaviors whether they ultimately stem from their mental illness or not.

      And ensuring your coworkers don’t feel unloved isn’t a requirement, whether they’re mentally ill or not. Like, being generally kind to them or at least polite is a requirement. But emotional validation goes beyond that and isn’t something that a job needs to or should try to provide in my opinion.

      I have severe depression and anxiety and honestly I would feel more than a bit patronized if people were tip-toeing around me and allowing me to be a jerk because they were afraid that calling me out on it would cause me to go into some sort of downward spiral. (And honestly that’s one of the worst/most insidious lies that my anxiety tries to tell me, “nobody likes you and they’re just putting up with you to be nice.”

      1. Jadelyn*

        Having to laugh at homophobic jokes is not only not likely to be an accommodation, it’s absolutely definitely NOT an accommodation, and depending on where you are is violating your (hypothetical, if you have any) queer coworkers’ rights to a workplace free from harassment and discrimination.

        1. MayLou*

          At a stretch, it might be a reasonable adjustment for a person with Tourette’s that causes them to uncontrollably say the least appropriate thing to acknowledge that it’s involuntary and they can’t avoid it, but even then a) you wouldn’t be required to laugh and b) they’d be very apologetic and aware that it wasn’t acceptable to say those things. That doesn’t sound like it’s the case here.

    8. irene adler*

      Mental illness doesn’t give Wanda the license to say unprofessional things or be rude to others in the workplace. That needs to be made clear to her. She’s at work and she needs to follow professional norms.

      My sister is bipolar. She’s very good about following her doctor’s instructions- meds, appointments, lab tests, etc. She worked at a hospital for over 20 years. There was never a special allowance made for her to be rude to others. There was allowance made for her to make her appointments, lab tests, fill prescriptions, take time off to manage unpleasant side effects from the meds.

      It’s not your place, or your co-worker’s place, to have to ‘manage’ Wanda’s mental illness for her by censoring their talk (assuming it is professional and within the norms of the workplace). Or by assuming her rudeness is an attribute of her mental illness and must be endured. She’s seeing a therapist- fine. So allow the leeway for her to make her scheduled appointments, if needed. And any other thing she needs to do to manage things.

    9. WellRed*

      What mental illness causes homophobia and rudeness? Right, NONE of them. It’s also a big ask to expect coworkers to make her feel “loved” (WTAF??) Stop walking on eggshells around her, stop trying to boost her up and tell her to do HER JOB. Frankly, since she’s new, I think it’s a good time to let her go.

    10. smoke tree*

      This approach shows your colleagues’ lack of understanding about how mental illness works. It’s not your collective responsibility to try to insulate her from the consequences of her own behaviour, nor is it in her best interests. Just treat her like you would any other colleague, including holding her to the same standards for basic decency and politeness.

    11. Jadelyn*

      Wow she sounds like a super gross person! With bonus gross-person points for the fact that she’s pretty clearly using her MI as cover to justify her shitty behavior! As someone with multiple MIs myself who has worked *hard* to be able to interact healthily with other people, I have absolutely zero tolerance for that.

      The biggest thing I can say is STOP LETTING HER USE MENTAL ILLNESS AS JUSTIFICATION FOR HER AWFUL BEHAVIOR. Hold her to the same damn standards of behavior (in terms of politeness, civility, etc. – not stuff like eye contact, or keeping to herself, or innocuous weirdnesses of whatever variety) as everyone else. Being mentally ill is NOT a free pass to be an enormous asshole, which is what she’s using it for.

      Also, not sure if this is you or your coworkers speaking re the concern about validation, but…stop. It’s not your job to make her feel loved at work. It’s your job to make her feel like a full and valued member of the team, yes, but letting a rude jerk reap the rewards of their rude jerk behavior is not required to “validate” and support someone. If she’s genuinely in such a bad place mentally that she can’t behave herself at work, she needs to not be working.

      2. animaniactoo*

        All of this. The limits of YOU working to manage her MI are to make sure that you are as compassionate as you can be in drawing boundaries. But making sure that you DO draw boundaries – because quite honestly, allowing her MI to rule the day and supersede boundaries is not helpful for her in understanding the limits she has to live within and work to manager her MI. So if you need ANY backup in drawing boundaries and pushing that they need to be drawn to those who want to have compassion for her – this is your argument. Drawing the boundaries *compassionately* is the most useful thing you all can do in helping her manage her MI in a healthy way.

        Note: She does not have to agree with you on that. A licensed therapist who is not necessarily her therapist will be able to substantiate this for you all if you need to take it to that level. But if you have to take it to that level in order to be able to draw boundaries as far as your higher ups are concerned, you should start looking for another job – because it’s very likely going to get bad and ugly before it gets resolved.

        1. Jadelyn*

          “allowing her MI to rule the day and supersede boundaries is not helpful for her in understanding the limits she has to live within” This. So, so much this.

          I had a string of partners whose concept of “supporting” was more along the lines of enabling – and I don’t really fault them for that, they were doing what they thought I needed in our relationships, and I honor the intent, regardless of the results – and that caused a Serious Issue when a partner at one point let himself get burned out to the point where he developed his own mental health issues. We separated for awhile and it was a Hard Growth Period for me, realizing that I needed to find other ways to manage my MIs because what I was doing wasn’t working. If we’d had the hard conversations earlier about setting boundaries then it might not have gotten that bad and we could’ve both saved ourselves and each other a fair bit of pain and struggle.

          Sometimes, the kindest thing you can do for someone in the long-term is allow them to experience the consequences of their actions instead of shielding them from it. In this context, what happens when Wanda moves on to a new job where her coworkers aren’t willing to enable her bad behavior? She’s going to get fired, posthaste. She’ll then have that on her employment history forevermore, which is not great for anyone. Maybe setting some good boundaries now might teach her enough self-management that she can avoid that outcome down the line.

      3. OhGee*

        100% agree, as both a person with MI and someone who has seen coworkers with MI who also happen to be awful jerks ruin a workplace for their colleagues.

    12. fposte*

      In addition to what other people say, “This includes ensuring her that we’re open to talk if she’s having a bad day” is very inappropriate as a workplace action. It’s not insensitive to mental illness to recognize that colleagues shouldn’t be drafted as therapists.

      Who is Wanda’s actual boss? It sounds like it might not be you, but I’m not seeing anybody else mentioned. Can you loop the boss in? And if the boss is you, it’s time to change your tack big-time. While the ESA thing may disturb you the most, that’s the least of the problems here because it happened out of the workplace and doesn’t require a workplace response. What does require a workplace response: homophobic remarks, rudeness to colleagues, and a practice of allowing Wanda to use work as therapy. The last is not her fault, but I’d put a hard stop to it. And then if you were the boss, I’d meet with Wanda and say “Wanda, it’s a workplace expectation here that you get along with your co-workers and communicate with them respectfully. That means we will not tolerate any more homophobic remarks in the workplace and comments such as ‘Well, doesn’t that make you special’ are not acceptable. If they don’t stop, your job here with us is in danger. Do you think you can change these behaviors?” If Wanda wants to talk about her mental illness, you point out what the office *can* offer: “We offer FMLA, time off for doctor’s appointments, an EAP, short term disability [whatever, you get the picture] to support you. We still require that all our employees meet professional standards for respectful behavior.”

      1. Jadelyn*

        This too – I was so focused on the bigger picture I didn’t directly address the “we’re open to talk” thing, but you’re absolutely right that that’s a really boundary-crossing thing to offer as an “accommodation” for someone’s MI. OP, you’re not her therapist, nor are any of the coworkers. If she’s having a bad day, she needs to have her own coping methods, such as texting with a trusted friend or posting to a supportive group chat, going for a short walk, putting on her headphones to shut out the world for a little while, or even going home early if it’s a really really bad day. “Expect your coworkers to act as unpaid therapists” is not a reasonable coping method for a bad mental health day.

      2. Kramerica Industries*

        I’ve brought interpersonal issues to our (same) boss before, and the first question is always “Did she say that to you as a friend or as a coworker?” Because if there’s a chance it was said as a friend, management won’t touch it. And I’ve got to be honest, Wanda is professional around everyone else, so I feel like this wouldn’t pass the boss’s “friend or coworker” test. Suggestions?

        1. fposte*

          That your management is craven, and I’d encourage you to step up your boundaries for friendship. “Wanda, I think we’ve been spending too much time on these discussions, and it’s not good for me; during work hours I’m going to focus more on work. Thanks for understanding.” “Wanda, please don’t talk to me like that. That’s not appropriate.” “Wanda, that’s a really offensive and hurtful thing to say.” (And if she tantrums, let her tantrum.)

          BTW, if you think you have scope, especially on the homophobic thing, I’d push back with your manager on the “as friends” thing–“I’m not her friend, and I don’t want to hear bigoted comments at work. I would really hate this to be a workplace where it was okay for people to be homophobic or racist or sexist.” Extra points if you’re in a state or other jurisdiction where sexual orientation is a protected characteristic; you can insert “illegally” in there.

        2. Not A Morning Person*

          At work, she is ALWAYS A COWORKER. That friend vs. coworker divide is BS at work.

          2. MassMatt*

            Yes, this comes from the manager wanting to shirk responsibility for managing Wanda.

            This is another case of a dysfunctional employee managing to get everyone and everything revolving around them. It has to be stopped, the sooner the better. The longer it goes on the more everyone else’s perspective of normal behavior gets warped until you are all having to line up at the bus stop by ascending height because otherwise it might upset Wanda.

            And yes the line up according to height thing is from an actual letter to AAM. Don’t let your workplace go down this road!

        3. Perse's Mom*

          “Wanda and I are not friends.”

          “Wanda and I are friendly in the same way I’m friendly with all of my coworkers, but we are not friends.”

          “I’m not friends with people who [insert example(s) of her terrible, terrible behavior].”

        4. Quandong*

          I think your boss is trying to get out of an unpleasant task for themselves and leaving the difficult work to you.

          Seriously. Does this boss think you are friends with Wanda rather than a coworker? Do you show any signs of having a friendship outside the workplace? It sounds like Wanda selected you as the recipient of completely inappropriate behaviours in the workplace.

          Tell the boss you are not Wanda’s friend. BTW this ‘friend or coworker’ test is intensely aggravating to me. Seems as though your boss could do with some extra training in how to manage people.

          1. Quandong*

            My suggestion is to tell your boss that you aren’t Wanda’s friend, and that you need Wanda to stop doing F, G, H behaviours.

            Tell the boss that you have tried strategies A and B already, that Wanda has not responded as hoped, so you need boss to remind Wanda what is expected from her as far as appropriate work behaviours.

        5. Jane of all Trades*

          What a weird cop out from your boss. I think in that moment your response has to be “since she is not my friend, but my coworker, and I am speaking to you as our boss. I am talking to you about things she said as my coworker.”
          Also, regardless of if she felt like you are her friend, homophobic comments create a hostile workspace for other people, so it makes no difference at all how she felt about you when she made that statement.

    13. Anonfortoday*

      I’d recommend separating the bad behavior from the mental illness. Lots of people have mental health issues and still manage to act appropriately in a work setting. If I were her manager, I’d probably say something like “Wanda, when you act X way, or say things in a Y tone, it’s perceived as very negative. I need you to commit to acting and speaking professionally. Can you do that?” and then if she doesn’t, hold her accountable.

    14. Batgirl*

      Blank check validation isn’t support. A true friend will tell you straight when you’re being an arse. Not laughing, saying ‘I dont think that’s cool actually’, or simply saying you don’t agree with her read on something, are all perfectly non jerky, reasonable ways to be around someone who’s in dire need of reality checks. I wouldnt expect everyone at work to help; lead by example.

    15. The Man, Becky Lynch*

      Focus on her horrible behavior and attitude, her mental health doesn’t need to be brought into it.

      A reasonable accommodation doesn’t include “Let people be bigots!” and “Let people talk to others rudely/snidely/crudely, etc.” She needs time off for therapy or other docs, that’s great. She needs some quiet space or some extra time processing or things written instead of spoken, she needs special equipment, etc.

      But if you’re just straight up being an horrible person and buying fake certifications for your dog [this dog is most likely abused and not trained, this is also on her as well, it’s no excuse to have an ill trained and dangerous animal in public, that’s a person problem, nope nope nope], you need to have this taken care of on HR level. They need to tell her to fix her attitude and how she interacts with others. End of story.

      Do not take responsibility for her illness. Don’t make excuses for bad behavior, it makes those of us with mental illness continue to be faced with a lot of bigotry due to starting to think Wanda is the “norm” or something in that case =(

    16. L.S. Cooper*

      So, here’s the thing: if her bad behavior and general selfishness (seriously, I would be furious if someone told me that dog story) means she feels alone and unloved… That’s not a problem. And it sure isn’t one at the workplace! Mental illness is not an excuse for being awful. She is behaving in an unacceptable manner, and she needs to be called on it.

    17. Not a dumping ground*

      I think your office’s first mistake might have been telling her that you’re open to talk if she has a bad day. This seems like making yourselves more emotionally available to her than she deserves, and you run the risk of becoming an emotional dumping ground. I know that I would personally find this kind of emotional dump triggering. People need to manage their own emotions, including those with mental illness, and the person who should help her with that is her therapist.

      You should commit yourselves to giving her time off to see her therapist and help cover her duties, when possible, when she’s seeing said therapist…but no more than that.

      1. Kramerica Industries*

        There’s actually training on how to deal with mental illness with compassion and openness. Scripts given are along the lines of “I’m sorry to hear you’re going through X, I’m here to listen”. I get where Corporate is coming from, but I definitely understand now that it could be boundary-crossing very easily. And unfortunately, that’s the can of worms we’ve opened.

        1. irene adler*

          This loops back to your prior post re: did Wanda say this as a friend or as a co-worker?
          I’m thinking the answer to this is- not sure. No one’s given you guidelines to determine this.

          Looks like management wants to show compassion to those who struggle with mental health issues. But, that is taking the form of burdening the workers with the work of doing this.

          See, if management wants co-workers to be “here to listen” then they have to give co-workers some guidelines on how they want you to do this. Co-workers are not mental health professionals! Are they expecting co-workers to function as such? Bad idea.
          Is enduring the constant rudeness, snide remarks, difficult to work with, all part of this “listening” management wants you to do? Is there a limit to what co-workers are asked to endure? And, for how long must they endure? Is management going to be supportive of the co-workers who become stressed out over time? In what form is this support going to be?

        2. Quandong*

          This training sounds like it will cause a lot of problems, and if you have the reserves to do so, I’d bring it up with the appropriate person. Being compassionate and reducing the stigma around mental illness doesn’t equate to saying ‘I’m here to listen’ to people like Wanda who have mental illness and push boundaries.

    18. JediSquirrel*

      Is she actually mentally ill, though, or just using that as an excuse to be terrible? If she bought a service animal certificate fro Amazon, I suspect she may be fake in other ways, as well.

    19. Kramerica Industries*

      Thank you all for the comments and reassurance. It’s weird how easy it can be to get caught up in wanting to be “nice” or “polite”, regardless of whether it’s actually the most healthy course of action.

      1. Not So NewReader*

        Match what is coming at you. That is what my wise friend used to say. If a person can be blunt enough to say something crass then it is okay for you to be blunt enough to end that particular topic of conversation and hopefully shut it down forever.

        Have a few go-to sentences for when you hear something that is inappropriate.
        “That’s. NOT. Cool!”
        “Don’t go there!”
        “Shhh, you can’t say stuff like that here. You could get written up for it.”

        This works easier if you think about your own wording that you would prefer to use, but you see the general idea here.

    20. Hedgehug*

      It sounds like she “openly disclosed” her MI and seeing a therapist so her bad behaviour wouldn’t be threatened and to make you all feel too guilty to call her out on her crap.
      I work in non-profit, so I encounter a lot of…unconventional people who are comfortable saying unconventional things to me because of my work environment. And I’m also fascinated by what makes people tick and human behaviour (I am not a therapist, counsellor, or anything related). Because of this, the shock value of outlandish statements tends to not affect me anymore, I can see through it. If I had of been present in the room when she told her dog biting story, I can say confidently I would have just given her a blank stare, put my hand on my chin, and replied, “Hm. I find it very interesting that is how you choose to describe the interaction between the dogs.” “why’s that?” she might ask. “Because, you also have a ‘big personality’ that other people around you seem to have difficulty handling.” Then I would have dropped my proverbial mic and left, ha.

  8. Fortitude Jones*

    Today, I’ll be flying back home from a weeklong conference that took place my second week of my new job. This was the first time I actually saw my manager, her manager, my dotted line manager, and my teammates – I work remotely (as does most of my team), and my interviews were all conducted over the phone (no Skype, Zoom, or any other video calls were had). I was nervous going out, especially since my team is global, and I had no idea if there were going to be cultural issues or not.

    Well, I’m glad to report the conference went well, and I gelled very well with this group! One of my new coworkers even said that they had been talking at one point when I wasn’t around (I got sick one day and had to skip one dinner with them to rest), and everyone agreed that I’m super brave for coming out here to this new city and meeting all of these new people after just starting a job. She said, “We all think you’re awesome,” and that was great because everyone on the team is older than me and in totally different phases of life, so I didn’t know if they would “get” me as such, but they did.

    While at the conference, I was able to be a part of a very important project call, and I impressed my grandboss with how I conducted myself and the questions I asked. Grandboss and I also discovered that we’re both foodies and love the same kinds of music, so we bonded over that. The whole team reiterated several times that they’re happy I came onboard, and you know what? So am I. This group is so supportive of one another, and I’m truly excited about the work I’m about to start doing. I hope the good vibes continue because I could see my self staying here for at least three to four years.

    4. Jean (just Jean)*

      It’s nice to read good workplace news. Thank you for sharing.
      As for you and the rest of the group being at different stages of life, common interests (food & music) and common experiences (work) go a long way to bridge the gap.

    7. Fortitude Jones*

      Thank you, everyone! It’s such a relief to finally be treated like an intelligent, competent, and integral part of a team again. My last job, my manager acted as if I couldn’t handle larger projects, and that really pissed me off because I came from a much more complicated industry and role before I moved into proposals – it was demoralizing for me to come to work everyday and know I was getting the stuff no one else wanted or cared about. Now, my dotted line manager told me he and my direct manager spoke about how my time would be best spent, and they both agreed I will be brought into all of the high level projects with large contract amounts and company visibility to QA our proposals and rework the executive summaries while also helping him to develop our new document management center (e.g. writing content, implementing software, etc.). I feel respected again, and that’s the most important thing!

  9. Anon for this*

    I manage employees in a job that involves recording readings from meters and gauges. Some of these are analog gauges that have thick tick marks with numbers in increments of 5, and four thin tick marks in increments of 1 between the thick marks.

    I noticed that one employee always records multiples of 5 from all of these gauges. Once, right after she took readings, I checked the gauges and compared my readings to hers, which confirmed that she was rounding to the nearest multiple of 5 (e.g., if the needle was on 33, she recorded 35). I told her that she needs to record the actual reading to the nearest 1 without rounding, and she swore that she was not rounding, but that she records “what she sees” and the reading is subjective. She suggested that she might have looked at the gauges at an angle and that was why she saw the readings differently than I did. I told her to read the gauges from directly in front of them as she was trained to do.

    The next day, all of her readings were again in multiples of 5. I took pictures of some of the gauges and showed her one on which the needle was on the mark for 33 but she had recorded 35. I asked her to look at the picture and tell me what the reading was. She looked at it for a long moment (much longer than I would expect for someone who reads gauges every day) and said “32.” I asked how she arrived at 32 and she looked again, this time touching her pen to the screen as she counted the marks, “30, 31, 32, 33. Oh, I mean 33.”

    This employee is not a strong performer — she’s unmotivated and has poor attention to detail. I initially assumed that she was recording multiples of 5 because she didn’t bother looking closely enough to get the actual readings (which is consistent with her overall performance), but based on the way she seemed to struggle with figuring out the reading from a very clear photo, I can’t help but wonder if she has a vision problem or some kind of learning disability that makes her unable to read this type of gauge. On the other hand, she is argumentative and unreceptive to feedback, and it would be just like her to feign difficulty with reading the gauge photo because she didn’t want to admit that she was rounding a reading of 33 to 35.

    I am not sure how to approach this — as a disciplinary issue or a potential disability. I haven’t noticed any other indications that she might have a vision problem or learning disability other than these particular gauges. Should I require her to get an eye exam? What if she does have a disability that makes her unable to read gauges? Reading meters and gauges accurately is an important part of the job, so I can’t really avoid assigning her to read gauges.

    1. Ask a Manager* Post author

      She got it right when you made her do it in front of you and required her to actually pay attention to it, so I think that points you toward disciplinary issue — as does the argumentativeness and resistance to feedback.

      1. alphabet soup*

        But.. she got it wrong when she performed it in front of Anon for this. She initially said “32” (which took her a long time to figure out), but the correct answer was “33.”

        It’s possible the defensiveness and argumentativeness might be a cover for an undiagnosed learning disability. I tutored a lot of students with learning disabilities in philosophy, which is a difficult subject to tackle if you don’t have strong abstract reasoning abilities, which a lot of these students didn’t. I noticed that they would argue with me about assignments and reading materials as a defense mechanism.

        1. alphabet soup*

          Part of the argumentativeness was due to frustration, and the other part of it was because they didn’t feel comfortable admitting how much they were struggling.

    2. RandomU...*

      I have some experience with this. I used to employ people to do the same type of work. Think reading dials.

      We did training for everyone and each person had to achieve a certain accuracy. We then would audit a percentage of their readings and they had to again maintain an acceptable accuracy rating. If they fell below that, we would put them through training again. If they failed to achieve and maintain the rating we would have a discussion about what they were having problems with. If they couldn’t maintain their accuracy they were either moved to another position or let go.

      No you can’t ask any of those questions. And I honestly wouldn’t even jump to poor eyesight or other reasons. I had many people who just didn’t click with how to read the dials and there was nothing else going on. The only thing you can really ask is what they think the problem might be.

      1. RandomU...*

        That should have read, moved to another position if one was available. We generally tried to do this if they were otherwise good and reliable. Sometimes we didn’t have any other work available and had to let them go.

    3. Emmie*

      Approach it as a work performance issue and not a disability issue. She has given you no indication she has a disability nor has she requested accommodations. You don’t want a de facto disability accommodation on your hands. I would also address her receptiveness to feedback and her overall attitude. Her performance issues are serious and result in customer overcharges. It’s not your job to change it for her, or to avoid giving feedback because she’s argumentative or unreceptive. She sounds like someone you need to manage out barring any significant performance and attitude improvements.

      2. Anon for this*

        Yes, she is a problem employee I inherited, with many performance issues that I am documenting (rounding the gauge readings being one of them). Unfortunately, this is a case where it will not be easy to let her go. It is a union job with a progressive disciplinary process, and she is very good at making excuses and finding loopholes to stay just below the threshold for disciplinary action. It is also a difficult position to fill and we can’t really afford to lose even a bad employee right now.

        1. RandomU...*

          Do you have a meter reading test or any accuracy requirements for the position?

          If it helps, meterpro is the software that I’ve used in the past and it’s a good one. If you don’t have any of those subjective measurements in place, I would prioritize that. It’s not impossible to terminate a union employee, but it is more difficult and having a subjective set of requirements and results will help now and in the future.

          1. Anon for this*

            No, there’s no meter reading test. It is just considered a basic skill like being able to tell time or do basic arithmetic. I know not everyone can do those things, either, but we generally assume that people can, and I haven’t seen any other employees have a problem reading these gauges correctly. This employee has been doing this type of work for over a decade, so I never would have expected her to have difficulty with a basic skill like this. This job actually requires some work that is much more complex and requires training and higher-level technical skills than gauge reading. I haven’t found any other employees having problems reading these gauges, so I think this is just a matter of insubordination (I told her to record the readings to the nearest 1, and she continued to round to the nearest 5), but it is so odd that it made me wonder if there was something more to the situation.

        2. ChimericalOne*

          Hmmm. Given that that’s the case, my advice would be twofold: 1) audit her & document the inaccurate readings. Use it to initiate disciplinary processes if possible. If not currently possible, see if you can advance a policy change (or interpretation of a policy) that would make it possible. This will put you in a good position to let her go if/when you’re able to (business-wise), assuming she doesn’t improve.

          2) Do what you did before: take pictures of the gauges and have her correct each one you catch being rounded. In the short run, this will be time-intensive. In the long run, it will teach her that she can’t lessen her workload by being sloppy with reading the gauges. If she has trouble eyeballing the lines and needs to count each one to be accurate (as certainly seems possible from your earlier one-to-one), then she does. But if you make it clear that you’re actually going to hold her to doing this, she’ll eventually stop trying to bypass it. (Or, if you can’t take pictures of all her gauges, you could require her to do so & to submit those pictures as supporting documentation because of her past inaccuracies. Pretty much any phone can take pictures and email them.)

          1. willow*

            I thought the same thing as your ending idea – make her take photos and submit them. If she knows you are monitoring her this closely, she may improve. If she does not improve, it’s evidence for disciplinary action.

        3. Batgirl*

          But surely you can go through the process with this knowledge of her loophole and excuse finding ability accounted for? So, make sure the paperwork says she has to stop rounding up and any future failures to pay attention to detail, or take feedback, will move her along the firing process.
          Be really confident that that’s the problem (not caring enough to pay attention) and move her along the process every time she slacks off on readings, makes excuses or gives attitude.
          No, the union aren’t going to like it if you speed up disciplinary or even just say ‘The excuses being made here are really unconvincing and is actually making me feel more like termination is inevitable than otherwise”; because defence is their job, but they will get it.

        4. NW Mossy*

          I’m going to push back on your statement of “we can’t really afford to lose even a bad employee right now,” because I’m concerned you’re falling into a trap.

          It sounds like you’re drawing a comparison between your employee and an empty chair, and concluding (in essence), “Well, getting 50 correct readings out of 100 is better than getting no readings at all.” But you’ve already made it clear that the accuracy of readings is really important! So knowing that, the comparison you really need is if inaccurate readings are costlier to deal with than no readings at all.

          In a lot of cases, work that’s wrong can be much worse than work that was never done at all. Fixing bad work is often really time-consuming – you have to be able to find the bad work (as you did only because you spotted that this employee’s data had unexpected patterns in it), isolate it from the good work, and then determine what, if anything, you can do about the bad work. In your example, I could see you having to scrap all her readings, because you can’t figure out what ones are truly a multiple of 5 and which ones aren’t when it’s after the fact.

          You might actually be in a better position if she’s not doing the job anymore, even if you can’t replace her. It means that all the time you spend on cleaning up bad work goes away, and you can trust that the readings you do have meet the accuracy standards. That’s a big boost to productivity!

          Think of your employee’s poor performance as if it were a literal weight on the shoulders of you and your team. If you set that weight down (either by correcting the performance problem or managing her out), you and others can stand taller, move faster, and take on additional work that adds more value than clean-up. I can speak from experience that after I fired a poor performer and didn’t replace the position, the team got dramatically more productive and so did I. Don’t assume your hands are tied – this is a big enough benefit to be worth fighting for.

          1. Probably actually a hobbit*

            NW is right. A problematic performer left our office a while ago. I was so desperate when I realized that they were leaving because we were already severely understaffed (we have had two positions open for YEARS and it usually takes more than a year to hire if you can get anybody at all in our job because there are so many more positions open than qualified individuals). We had to split this person’s duties over our very small staff. We provide 24/7 coverage, so going from 5 people to 4 was NOT TRIVIAL.

            Life is so much better without this toxic person at work — I’d do even more nights and weekends if I had to to keep this person away.

            Listen to NW — bad work by a toxic colleague is making your life harder in so many ways that you don’t even realize — don’t fall for the “hard to fire” “hard to replace” trap!

          2. Anon for this*

            Yeah, I agree that bad work can be worse than no work at all, but she is doing enough acceptable work to be a net positive. We would still be better off replacing her with someone who does good work, but that takes time.

            At this point, though, the main issue is that we have a requirement for a minimum number of certified teapot makers, and we are there. There is actually another employee who has received a promotion and we are holding her back until a junior teapot maker gets certified. After that, we can’t afford to lose any more certified teapot makers until another junior teapot maker gets certified. We have a few more junior teapot makers working on their certifications, and once they are certified, I will have a lot more flexibility.

        5. The Man, Becky Lynch*

          It’s paperwork and a long journey but firing a person like this in the end is going to be worth it. You may not see it now and may just want to try to suck it up or try to fix it in-house so to speak but it’s just never going to work out the way you want to. You have a square peg in a round hole right now but that square peg is really really really talking back to you and making it even more frustrating all around.

          Go through the steps. Let her try to save her skin and talk with her union rep if she wants to. But just now what you expect from her and the job requirements are.

        6. MassMatt*

          It stinks to inherit a problem employee and it’s no fun firing people but this is absolutely what you need to do. Start the process, however lengthy it may be. She cannot do the job, she literally cannot do it. Presumably accurate readings from these gauges are important (if not, why take the time to read and record them?) and she doesn’t care. She has a terrible attitude, is argumentative, and sloppy in work that requires precision. In fact, the only thing you have said she is good at is evading disciplinary action. Maybe she can find a job utilizing that skill.

          I get that her behavior is odd but stop trying to explain it or rationalize it or think up an excuse for her and start the process for getting rid of her. Document everything and make it about her performance, or lack of it.

    4. Alice*

      If the employee hasn’t requested a disability accommodation, I think you can rule out the potential disability angle. It could be that she has a disability and is keeping it hidden for whatever reason, but that’s on her, not you. You can ask her “why do you think you’re struggling with reading gauges” but unless she outright tells you she has a vision impairment or other disability I would assume it’s a performance issue.

    5. LCL*

      Ha ha ha, the gauge interpretation/accuracy problem. I feel your pain. I can laugh because I can write pages on this issue, and what I believe to be the psychology behind this issue. It’s only going to get worse as analog gauges are replaced with digital gauges. This isn’t a discipline problem, and it isn’t a disability. It’s a lack of skills problem, which you can ask her to work on. Before you go any further, read up on the parallax effect, which you neatly described in paragraph 2.

      What has the best chance of working is for you to make a couple cheat sheets for the different types of meters. On this sheet, show the meter, and the numerical value of each division. From what you describe it sounds like she doesn’t realize each increment is usually an equal amount. And note the accuracy and value you want read and noted. (here, the majority of meters are round up or down to the nearest 10. eg. We should never see a value of 65, it should be 60 or 70.) You may have to add some tape labels to your panel to say ‘record to nearest 1.’ And you may have to redesign your form to mention ‘record to nearest 1.’ Then you have to take her around and show her, using the cheat sheets.

      There are a few tricks for reading meters. One is to carry a little, very bright flashlight with you and shine it on each meter. I think everyone in this group who is middle age + carries a penlight for this reason. Or uses an LED headlamp, there are ones out there that are easy to fit on hard hats. Another is to carry a plain white piece of copy paper in your off hand, the same hand that is holding the clipboard. Hold the paper just under the meter or counter, enough ambient light will reflect up to make it easier to read.

      1. RandomU...*

        Sorry but what?! On what planet is rounding a meter dial to the nearest 10 acceptable?

        Again trying to wrap my head around this… but my experience is that the the only dial that is acceptable to get wrong is the farthest right and only +/- 2 increments/digits. So you’d be ok reading a 4 as a 3 or 5… maybe as 2 or 6, but I’d be side eyeing even that.

        1. LCL*

          What is acceptable meter rounding is COMPLETELY situation dependent. Rounding by 10s is perfectly acceptable in many of our applications, where the first scale mark is 0 and the second scale mark is 100, and the meter may go up to 500.

          Some factors that decide what is acceptable rounding are but not limited to: the value being measured, other measuring devices looking at this measurement, what the measurement is used for, are production decisions based on these measurements or some other measurements, are alarm and emergency responses based on this measurement or other measurements, or both or neither, what is a bad reading, what could a bad reading mean or indicate, and on and on.

          1. RandomU...*

            Whew… I was really concerned there for a minute and mostly wondering why my feet were always held to the fire for accuracy if this was acceptable! I had my read blinders on there for a second and forgot about some of the other types.

            Yeah, when I was in this game… we had someone read the meter, then another blind audit read, then we had to audit the audit readers. And yes +/- 1 digit was really the only acceptable variance.

            1. LCL*

              Yes, I just realized you were referring to the dial type of unit/hour meters used to measure consumption of gas/water/electricity over time. I have to compile a report pulled from some of those types of meters, and I end up correcting mistakes myself, because a mistake of one on the 10,000 dial is glaringly obvious.

        2. Anon for this*

          I am pretty sure LCL is referring to gauges that are marked in larger increments. The gauges my employee is reading go from 0 to 100 and are marked in increments of 1, but there are gauges that go from 0 to 1000 and are marked in increments of 10; i.e., there is a tick mark at 60 and the next mark is at 70, so one could not read 65 on such a gauge.

        3. smoke tree*

          It sounds weird, but I can understand where this is coming from. For some reason my brain has a hard time filling in the gaps on rulers, dials, anything like that. I really have to concentrate to do it properly. I’ve never had to do it for a job, so maybe with practice I would get better–but it seems just as likely that I would still have to read each one super slowly to avoid mistakes, which doesn’t seem ideal.

          1. VLookupsAreMyLife*

            I don’t think that sounds weird at all. We all have areas in which we perceive & interpret differently.
            But, I’m assuming you wouldn’t choose a job where reading a dial was an essential function if you knew that was a challenge for you… at least, not unless there was some type of accommodation or work-around?

            1. smoke tree*

              It’s never occurred to me as something that might be a barrier in a work context (doesn’t really come up in my line of work), but I mostly just wanted to point out that while it may seem incredibly simple, some people may genuinely struggle with it.

          2. Gatomon*

            Yes I get it too, I struggle in the same way and this wouldn’t be a good job for me. I have the worst time with clock faces, they’re basically meaningless to me.

      2. Yorick*

        I disagree. I think it sounds like she isn’t taking the time to do the correct reading, which is a performance issue. First she rounded to the nearest thick mark. Then she tried to eyeball it and got 32 instead of 33. When she actually looked at the meter with enough focus to get the right answer, she got it.

    6. cheese please*

      Having been a supervisor in a union shop (aero manufacturing) I hope to offer some advice.

      1. Point out how critical accurate readings are. For example, are records audited externally? Is there a limit on other operations where 45 would be bad but 43 is ok? Remind her that X department relies on accurate readings to do their job. Etc. This is so she knows that the reasons you care about this isn’t an attack on her personally but because of hard black and white reasons.

      2. Let her know that you want to make sure she’s properly trained in this role, and that while it may be easy to read the larger tick marks, the dials aren’t changing to digital ones and she needs to give accurate measurements. Can you assign a lead to work with her for a few days and sign off that the readings are accurate? Create a training document with a test that she signs and dates?

      You can’t require anyone to get an eye test as far as I’m aware, but you can ask if they need more lighting in certain areas. In some unions, disciplining apathetic employees is particularly frustrating, but just document everything and slowly work through the process if the employee is indeed violating procedures or not following directions.

    7. Pay no attention to the man behind the curtain*

      If reading gauges accurately is an essential function of the job, then it doesn’t matter if she has a disability. Employers need to make reasonable accommodations if it’s possible — as an analogy if someone is blind, they can’t be a school bus driver. However, if you have someone else that can read and record the gauge accurately, but she can do the rest of her skilled job, then maybe that is the solution. You don’t even need her to ask for an accommodation to reassign one part of her job unless reading the gauges is the hard-to-find skill that would be impossible to replace.

    8. Not So NewReader*

      I do have problems reading gauges from time to time, middle-aged, bifocals, so yeah.

      That said, I think your solution presented right in front of you. Tell her she has to count the lines each and every time. Give her a small flashlight to make it easier. This is what I have to do, it takes me a few seconds longer than it use to and I hunt around for a good light to assist me. Make sure you tell her that you are asking no more of her than you are of everyone else. Everyone has to make sure their readings are accurate, no exceptions.

      At the same time go to her union rep/steward, ask the rep if this is the type of worker the union wants to be known for backing. Explain the problems, first. Explain how it would impact the company if everyone did this. (This is a good talking point if it means loss of jobs because the numbers were skewed.)

      Do you have a company policy about falsifying documents or failure to correct erroneous records? If so maybe you can work that into the mix here. If you can be sure to point it out to the union rep.

      Yes, it’s work. But there is a tipping point, do you want to spend the rest of your time there discussing her accuracy with her? It might be worth haggling with the union for 6-8 months rather than face years of this.
      Once you learn what will make the union think twice and work with you, then you can reapply that learning if ever you have another instance.

      1. Not So NewReader*

        PS: Look at the union hand book. There might be a section that says, “all employees shall….” and it lists off what employees must do for the employer. It would be helpful if she was in violation of one of these baseline agreement points.

  10. Ella*

    Suggestions for interview dress for a tech company in Silicon Valley? I’m struggling a bit! I’m a mid-20s woman, and interviewing for a management, not tech/engineering position.

    1. Kenzi Wood*

      Can you creep on their social media at all? That’s what I do before meetings. Look at how they’re dressed and dress up just a little bit above that. ie.

    2. wandering_beagle*

      In the past, I have asked what the office dress code is like when I am scheduling the interview. Dress code varies so much from company to company, and even within tech companies it can vary.

    3. Anax*

      Oh, hey – I’ve also recently been interviewing at tech companies in Silicon Valley, though I’m in IT. :)

      I’ve been seeing a ton of sheath dresses, sometimes with a blazer or cardigan – obviously, leaning more professional than evening/cocktail, like Nordstrom’s “work dresses for women”. Blazer + buttondown/blouse + slacks is also always solid.

      I think that a full tailored pantsuit might read excessively formal for a lot of middle-management positions here, as long as you’re not interviewing for a public-facing executive position.

      You should be able to see from social media, websites, or even driving by during lunch what sort of office culture you’re working with – a lot of tech companies here skew toward informal dress as a job perk, so I’ve seen everything from ‘buttondown and slacks’ to ‘hoodie, printed t-shirt, and jeans’ as typical office attire for the IT folks. Managers are usually about half a step up. Anything more formal would be unusual; it was actually startling to interview at a business casual workplace!

      If you’re not local and you’re interviewing soon, you should also know that we’re having super weird weather in the Bay Area right now – it’s Seattle weather, chilly, rainy, and foggy, and there are more road delays than usual. You will probably want a sweater, unless the weather shifts soon!

    4. Anon Anon Anon*

      When I worked at a Bay Area tech company, there were different norms around how people dressed based on their field. For example, jeans and t-shirts were normal for tech roles whereas the marketing and finance people dressed up more. But we were pretty relaxed about what candidates and new hires wore. The only things that would potentially make a bad impression were going too casual or too formal. If you wear something like stylish dress pants and a stylish button down shirt or sweater, you should be fine. People got points for keeping things simple and understated yet also personalized and interesting, although that probably goes for any workplace.

    5. ten-four*

      For men the Silicon Valley wardrobe is:
      Blazer
      hip t-shirt/button down
      dark jeans
      Super fancy sneakers/hip dress shoes.

      I always translated this into:
      Blazer
      nice blouse
      dark jeans/hip pants
      trendy heels/flats

      It’s been a while since I moved away from SF though, so I endorse the social media creepin’ suggestion!

    6. The Man, Becky Lynch*

      Since you’re interviewing for management, even if day to day you’re going to be pretty casual, you still are safe to show up in a polished professional wardrobe. They’re not looking that far into it and believe me, being over dressed for an interview is never an issue. I wear suits for interviews and I’ve never in my life had a job that required anything but “wear clothes that cover your bits” in my life, in a very relaxed manufacturing world! Nobody blinks at it, they know it’s an interview =) Even my laborer positions often show up in formal attire, not usually suits but slacks and a sweater/jacket, etc.

    7. Bend & Snap*

      A year ago I got hired (from the Boston area) at a tech company in Silicon Valley. The company is pretty casual so for my interview I wore a sheath dress with a fun print, a black blazer and black heels. It was perfect!

    8. Alanna of Trebond*

      I’d go with something that looks polished/professional but doesn’t have to be as formal as a suit. Dress pants (like the Old Navy Pixie or JCrew Minnie or Everlane Work Pant) + non-cotton tank top or shell + cardigan. Dress pants + button-down shirt or print blouse or nice sweater. Pencil skirt + print blouse or shell + cardigan. Blazer + silk top + black or dark blue tailored jeans. Sheath dress + cardigan or jacket if it’s sleeveless. Flats.

      The basic idea is one formal workwear thing + one slightly less formal thing. You’ll probably be more formal than people are every day in the office and that’s OK; it communicates that you want to give a good impression without being totally out of step with the culture.

      I work in a tech company, but not Silicon Valley. (I’m in Washington DC, which is notoriously conservative when it comes to workwear, but our office dress habits are VERY non DC.)

  11. Changeover*

    Pros/cons to working in a nonprofit?

    I am interviewing with my first nonprofit organization. Great people, great mission. I have own personal pro/con list for accepting this job if offered, or staying put in my current job & continuing my search.

    But I would really love your anecdotal experience to help me form a more complete picture for what is a completely different environment for me.

    Things such as:
    –How rigid/flexible such orgs tend to be with work hours / remote work?
    –If it’s a family-run foundation, are there particular pitfalls to watch out for?
    –If you see changes that could be made for positive gain but they go against What’s Always Been Done, do you just toe the line?
    –What if they refuse to tell you the salary range even during the second round of interviews? (Which did happen, and reminds of the question posted May 23.)
    –Anything else!

    1. Llama Wrangler*

      In terms of the first and third question, I think there is so much variation between non-profits, just as I’m sure there’s variation in for-profits. I think you need to ask questions during the interview and assess the culture for each place; I don’t think someone can give you a blanket “here’s what to expect” for non-profit culture. (Saying this as someone who has worked for 5 non-profits with 5 wildly different cultures.)

    2. Ask a Manager* Post author

      Keep in mind that questions 1 and 3 will vary widely by organization. There’s no one single culture in nonprofits! Some are well managed and rigorous, others are not. Some encourage new ideas, others don’t. (And some ideas are better than others, of course!) Some are flexible on remote work and hours, others aren’t. Just like for-profit businesses. And broadening it beyond your questions but to a stereotype that often comes up: Some will expect you to work crazy hours “for the mission” and others won’t. You’ve got to pay attention to what you’re seeing about this nonprofit, and do your due diligence on what things are like there.

      Sorry, pet peeve.

      1. pegster*

        As someone who has worked in for-profits and non-profits, I share this pet peeve! Variation within both exists and there’s a bias in a lot of cultures that non-profits are by definition inefficient, lazy, and emotion-driven and that for-profits are the paragon of efficiency. I’ve seen both in both.

        And I think it’s a powerful belief that can have some very severe political implications.

      2. JR*

        Agreed – the only thing “non-profit” tells you is that they have to reinvest retained earnings back into the organization, rather than paying them out to shareholders. Basically everything else can and does vary organization to organization.

    3. knitter*

      I think a few of these points are really dependent on the organization, which is true with for-profit too. When I worked at a non-profit, I had a lot of flexibility around whether or not I had to go into the office and was able to update programs. So I’d make sure you ask questions that get at these things.

      I think the idea that is most endemic to non-profits is the idea that you are working for a specific mission you believe strongly in. As such, you might be guilted in ways to work longer hours or take on responsibilities that are outside your skill set or work for less pay/not get raises “for the good of the mission”.

    4. Miss Vaaangie*

      I dictated this post. I apologize for errors, grammar or general writing anomalies)

      20 years and 8 nonprofits later there might be some common themes but in general they vary and require a lot of research to understand who they are before going into the interview.

      Questions I ask:
      1. Is this a grant-funded position or in the budget? Grant-funded meet me that it has a hard end dates and a lot of reporting requirements. a budgeted position means that they should be fundraising to keep the position with the intent that the position will carry on. But the position could be kind of course is sufficient fundraising hasn’t been met.

      2. It’s okay to ask about flexibility regarding working from home. Many nonprofits are family oriented and would like to keep good performers. we’re having this discussion our office and I’ve decided that is probably going to be an unofficialand as needed rather than written into the employee handbook. if this is a family foundation there is possibility you will have to work evenings for board meetings, or grants reporting timelines, or other committee responsibilities. It’s okay to ask a question, but know that when they say they offer flexibility but not work from home that you probably may not get a work-from-home concept implemented anytime soon.

      3. I’ve never encountered a nonprofit that didn’t provide a pay band in the job position or within the first interview. they too want to maximize their return on interviewing and don’t want to interview people who may not want that lower level of pay.

      4. Every nonprofit has its ‘we’ve tried that and it didn’t work’ response. However any changes in process and procedure need to come after you’ve had a thorough engagement and indoctrination into the organization and programs and know that what you’re trying to do will have a positive gain and not just help your resume. nonprofits 10 to lean on concepts that are innovative but realized that ** funding ** policy, strategy of the board and the executive director do guide an influence how change, improvements, and innovation will be received and implemented.

      1. Miss Vaaangie*

        OMG. I will never dictate a post while hanging out at the dog park ever again! Kudos to anyone able to read it with any sense of coherence. Next time I’ll wait until I’m home. Thanks

    5. Changeover*

      Thank you for your responses!

      In my haste, I may have messed up in how I worded things. I do realize every org is different no matter what their basis is. I didn’t want anyone in that org to see this and connect it with the real me, so I left out some more concrete details and things I did ask them already. I didn’t mean to trigger any pet peeves. This is so wildly new to me that I feel out of my depth, and worried I’ll turn down what could be a great opportunity. Or take what could be a not-great opportunity.

      I sincerely appreciate your answers, and am really taking to heart the ‘any changes in process and procedure need to come after you’ve had a thorough engagement and indoctrination into the organization.’ The corp I’m in now tends to gallop away with any new hire’s ideas. :)

      1. ChimericalOne*

        As someone on the board of a nonprofit, I would add: they might give lip-service to not expecting you to work crazy hours “for the mission” (or even genuinely think they’re committed to work-life balance) but still have a culture where everyone does it, anyway (which can be just as bad!). If you get a chance to talk to the people who work there (other than the folks who are hiring), you might ask things like, “How often do you find yourself working on your days off? Is that pretty common around here?” and “Do people generally answer emails from home?” etc.

        1. ChimericalOne*

          To be specific, I’m the president of the board of a progressive religious institution that talks about all sorts of worker’s rights issues… and yet that employs a skeleton staff (‘cuz, as with most religious institutions in America in 2019, money’s tight) and runs our minister & office admin ragged trying to do All the Things… *sigh*

          I’ve been trying to change this ever since I took this position, but it’s not easy when your culture says “work, work, work” and “nooo, we can’t afford to hire anyone else!”

          1. Miss Vaaangie*

            “talks about all sorts of worker’s rights issues… and yet that employs a skeleton staff” You’ve just described 90% of all non-profits… ugh.

            Whether it’s paying employees such that they’re income eligible for your own services or not providing workplace flexibility when your non-profit advocates for working parents, sometimes non-profits are our own worst enemy.

            Kudos, as a Bd member, for tackling these issues that Bd’s tend to not think is within their purview. Tackling the ‘overhead myth’ is everyone’s responsibility. The worst was hearing a Bd member say, “We’re a non-profit, we can’t pay well.” I almost lost my footing and lunch on that one.

        2. Washi*

          Yeah, I worked somewhere where people said they only worked crazy hours during the “busy season”…which in practice was August – January, almost half the year!

          On the other hand, several of my coworkers would probably describe our current job as intense and fast-paced, but as far as workload goes, it’s the easiest and most lowkey job I’ve ever had. It’s really hard to judge from the outside what the workload will be like!

        3. Changeover*

          I did manage to ascertain that they have strict in & out hours and one designated lunch hour. They also said that when quitting time rolls around, everybody bolts and doesn’t take work home (generally). I didn’t get a feel for how often this is not the norm, though.

    6. CoffeeOnMyMind*

      I worked for a nonprofit for 7 years. I have MANY memorable moments, but here are my favorites (nonprofit work is a weird and wild world):

      – flexible hours often translated to working late at night and on weekends (in a very dark, very old Victorian mansion)

      – job duties tend to expand based on the organization’s needs in the moment. For example, I became a repair man, electrician, plumber, lawyer, lighting expert, weather man, and ghost whisperer in addition to my regular duties

      – expanded my creativity when running a program from the ground up with no budget

      – securing the property’s perimeter and pathways so patrons wouldn’t accidentally fall into the fountain during an on site event at night

      – opening an event during a hurricane

      – coming to work and discovering the bottom floor covered in water from a burst water heater

      – hosting an event with no AC in the building during the height of summer in the South

      – chasing the squirrels living in the attic so they don’t scare patrons

      – Pointing out potential legal/ethical violations to the Board

      – figuring out ways to make money so the budget isn’t constantly in the red (see: running events above)

      – discovering an original handwritten signed document by President Thomas Jefferson in an old file cabinet

      – discovering an entire room painted in a kaleidoscope of colors by a local painter in the 1920s (the room was used for storage, had no lighting and so seeing the entire room – walls, door, ceiling – painted like Van Gogh was amazing)

      – fielding phone calls from paranormal groups wanting to spend the night at the property

      – fielding phone calls from people who thought their homes were haunted and they wanted me to call the ghost busters or a priest (this happened a lot)

      1. CoffeeOnMyMind*

        Oh and when interviewing for another nonprofit I was asked the following: “What would you do if you encountered poisonous snakes and rabid raccoons?”

        What a nice snapshot of life at that place. lol

        1. Miss Vaaangie*

          THIS could be a great topic “Weird non-profit interview questions that glean insight into the job.”

          I was asked, “How do you feel about carrying toilets and moving lumber by hand?” (which may give away the non-profit brand) I’m ok with cleaning toilets, but carrying them was a whole other ballgame.

      2. MissBliss*

        I have to ask what happened to the original handwritten signed document by President Thomas Jefferson!

        1. CoffeeOnMyMind*

          The Board got it framed, I added it to the property archive inventory list, and then we put it in a large, flat filing cabinet with other oversized artifacts. We didn’t have a lot of space … most artifacts were stored in unused rooms. I was hunting for another lost artifact when I stumbled on the kaleidoscope room.

          I used to pull the Jefferson document out to show third graders on field trips. They loved it. It was also signed by James Madison when he was Secretary of State.

      3. Changeover*

        Not being the one having to do it, the squirrels and the paranormals, the kaleidoscope and original document signed by Thomas Jefferson make me want a job that has these things. :)

    7. Rainy days*

      I’ve been in nonprofit work for about five years, and my experience has been:
      – Not telling you a salary range most likely means it is way below market value.
      – You can actually wring a LOT of flexibility out of nonprofits, in a way that can be very beneficial to you if you need that flexibility in your life. If they know that they are paying you a below-market salary and are lucky to have you, USE that. They are likely not flexible at all on salary, so negotiate more vacation time, and take it.

    8. Good luck with that*

      When I had a project at the archdiocesan school office, even the nuns had to use a time clock. Of course that was three cardinals ago, so things may have changed. Still, don’t think non-profit is necessarily going to be less rigid.

      Also, with a few notorious C-suite outliers, salaries in non-profits never match what the same position would pay in industry. There must be exceptions, but I don’t know of any. If they’re not disclosing, it sounds as though they know they’re underpaying even more than usual.

      I had colleagues who worked with some large regional (not religious) non-profits, and said the administration was as professional as anywhere else. I’ve been on the board of a couple of small non-profits, and am so grateful to be out. Passionate amateurs. Sometimes I wondered if I was the only adult in the room.

  12. CatCat*

    Do you eat breakfast at work?

    I do and have for as long as I can remember. Lunch too. Because of this, I realized I eat the majority of my meals every week sitting at my desk at work.

    1. Amber Rose*

      Usually no, actually. I try to have some yogurt and a banana at home before I leave. I know we have a lot of people who come in every morning and make a full breakfast though. I see them making toaster waffles and chopping fruit.

      1. CatCat*

        Interesting! I do not prepare breakfast at the office. I bring it in a container from home. Around here, some people prepare a breakfast, but it’s simple stuff like coffee in the coffee maker, toast, or adding hot water to instant oatmeal.

        1. Rainy*

          Yeah, my husband makes me my preferred breakfast (yoghurt and müesli) in a small container and I eat when I get to work while I’m checking email and settling in.

          Most of the time people in my office who “prepare” a breakfast are making instant oatmeal, heating up a breakfast burrito, or toasting a bagel.

    2. Llama Wrangler*

      I do, too! I didn’t before this job, but this office has a strict “get here after 9:05 and you’re late” policy, and I realized breakfast was the variable keeping me from getting out of the house consistently on time.

      1. Alice*

        Yeah, me too. I used to have breakfast at home and arrive at 9:30, but my office changed its rules so now I arrive at 9:00 and eat shortly afterwards. It’s usually coffee and a croissant. I tried having breakfast before leaving the house but with my new schedule that’s too early and I’m famished before lunchtime.

    3. londonedit*

      Yep, breakfast and lunch at work. I’d never really thought about it but I suppose yes, I do eat the majority of my meals away from home! I’d rather spend the time it would take to have breakfast before I leave the house in bed, plus if I ate breakfast before 7.30am (which is the latest I leave to get to work) then I’d be starving by mid-morning. So instead I buy a coffee on the five-minute walk from the station to the office, have that when I get to work at 8.15am, and then wait until 10am to have my proper breakfast. That way I don’t get too hungry again before lunch at 1.

    4. Dragoning*

      Yep! I hate mornings a little too much to wake up early enough to eat at home.

      Besides, my workplace actually serves breakfast in the cafeteria.

    5. CTT*

      If I work out in the morning, I do. I now have a drawer that’s just a Costco box of oatmeal.

    6. Susan K*

      No, I eat breakfast at home before I go to work. I have several coworkers who eat breakfast at work, and I have to say it bugs me a little that they spend their first 20 minutes on the clock making and eating breakfast when I did so at home on my own personal time. (I’m not talking about people eating a granola bar at their desk while working — I mean people who are in the breakroom cooking and eating breakfast while not doing anything work-related.)

      1. Fortitude Jones*

        Unless they’re hourly, they’re not really “on the clock” per se. And if they are salaried employees, as long as they’re completing the work they were hired to do, it shouldn’t matter if they spend 20 minutes in the morning eating breakfast and not working.

          1. Fortitude Jones*

            Yeah, then that’s not great. I’m surprised their manager hasn’t said anything about it. I haven’t been hourly in almost a decade, but when I was, our managers were always on our asses about stuff like this.

            1. Elizabeth West*

              It depends on the job. My role at Exjob was hourly and I didn’t need to be butt-in-seat, so nobody cared. As long as I got my work done (and I did, on time), I could do whatever. I always addressed my inbox before I went to the kitchen anyway.

              I was such a creature of habit that if anyone needed to find me, they always knew where to look. “Oh it’s 9 o’clock; Elizabeth is probably in the kitchen. Oh, it’s 3 pm; Elizabeth is doing her break time stair climb,” etc.

    7. ThatGirl*

      Not currently, but I have – for awhile at my last job I stashed instant oatmeal in my desk and made it after I got to work. Our cafeteria also had breakfast if need be.

    8. Been There*

      I don’t, but that’s mostly just because I can’t wait that long to eat. I do eat my morning snack and afternoon snack at my desk, but make an effort to leave my desk for lunch 4/5 days a week.

    9. Peaches*

      I eat breakfast at home (usually a fruit smoothie) around 6:30 A.M., but have two peanut butter dark chocolate chip protein balls around 10:00 A.M. every morning at my desk as a morning snack.

      I eat lunch at work about 2-3 days a week. The rest of the time I go home for lunch since I have the luxury of living close.

      1. EmKay*

        Would you mind sharing the recipe for the peanut butter dark chocolate chip protein balls? They sound delicious!

        1. Peaches*

          YES! They are seriously the best. My husband and I make them every Sunday night and eat them throughout the week. They’re a great filling snack, and aren’t too terribly unhealthy.

          1 1/2 cup steel cuts oats
          1/2 cup peanut butter or other nuts butter
          1/4 cup maple syrup (we use 100% pure maple syrup)
          1 tsp ground cinnamon
          1/4 tsp sea salt
          2 tablespoons dark chocolate chips
          1 tbsp flax seed (optional)

          1. Line a baking sheet with waxed paper
          2. In a large bowl, combine all ingredients except for the dark chocolate chips in a large bowl and mix (it’s actually really easy to mix with a spoon – you don’t need a mixer or anything!)
          3. Gradually add in the dark chocolate chips and stir once the other ingredients are well combined
          4. Using wet hands, roll the mixture into 1-inch wide balls. Place them on baking sheet (the wet hands part is REALLY important – the mixture will fall apart in your hands if you don’t keep running them under water every 4 balls or so)
          5. Refrigerate the balls for at least 1 hour so they firm up. Store in an airtight container for up to 1 week.

    10. Fortitude Jones*

      When I used to work in an office I did, but I was also close enough to my apartment that I’d try to go home for an hour lunch each day to get a break from my desk. I’d also take a walk late in the afternoon for that same reason.

    11. Liz*

      I wouldn’t say that I have to spend time showing or proving my value specifically, but I do run into instances more often than I’d like, where the higher ups want something and a. think its just push a button and done, when in reality, it takes research and time or b. they don’t communicate clearly exactly what it is they want, so i do what they ask of me, give them the results, and get back “no, i didn’t want a, i wanted b! yet they never communicated to me that B was actually what they were looking for.

      Because I am the “peon” in my dept, i really don’t think they have any clue at all what I do. BUT, and i like to joke, if i ever left, they’d be so screwed.

    12. epi*

      I go through phases where I do, or don’t.

      I like it because I don’t have to get up as early, and I can eat during a time of day when I am typically not that productive anyway– just checking email, settling in, and reorienting myself to what I am supposed to that day. Plus I am usually not hungry *right* when I wake up so sometimes the timing just makes more sense.

      Usually when I quit it’s because it is turning into a more extended break, the coffee is better at home, or because if I will sometimes be tempted to buy breakfast just as I sometimes buy lunch. When buying treat breakfast gets to be too frequent, I just switch to eating at home for a while. Plus in the summer it is easier for me to get up early enough to enjoy coffee/breakfast/book at home.

    13. Dasein9*

      Both breakfasts, yes.

      I get up at 5:30 to do my part-time job, which is remote. By the time I get to the office, it’s time for second breakfast, and I eat that in my cubicle. Frequently have lunch in the cubicle too.

    14. Liz*

      Yes. I can’t eat right after i wake up. I need to be up for a while. So I have coffee before I leave but then breakfast at work. At my desk, WHILE i’m working.

    15. Rainy*

      Yup. I don’t like to eat anything as early as I’d have to to eat before I leave for work–it’s bad for my digestion.

    16. Workerbee*

      Does second breakfast count? I get in by 6:30-ish, so even though I ate an actual breakfast around 5-something, by 7:30, I’m starving again. Oof.

      I have a drawer and mini-refrigerator dedicated to sustenance.

      1. Ann Perkins*

        Same here! I have overnight oats and coffee at home. And I keep frozen breakfast burritos and fruit at work for a mid morning boost.

    17. Ellex*

      I do! I literally can’t eat too soon after getting up or it tends to upset my stomach – I need at least half an hour before I put anything in my stomach, so I ate breakfast during home room in high school, too.

      But I also don’t eat much more than a granola bar for breakfast at work, so I don’t really consider it a “meal”.

      From what I’ve seen in various workplaces, it’s pretty common. I know some people who have breakfast at home and then have a snack when or shortly after they get to work.

    18. Hello!*

      I usually make a breakfast sandwich at home, english muffin with egg tomato and avocado (and Trader Joe’s bagel seasoning) and wrap it in foil and take it to work with me. I have a little breakfast sandwich maker that I got off of Amazon that keeps dishes to a minimum as well. It is the perfect thing for me in the morning with some of my health issues since it contains whole grains, protein, and fat.

    19. Dust Bunny*

      I do. I have to leave the house around 6:15 to get to work on time, and I’m not hungry that early; plus, if I eat then, I will be ravenous by 10:00 and end up eating like five meals a day. If I eat when I get there at 7:15, I actually want breakfast *and* I’m OK until lunch.

      We have a kitchenette with microwave, fridge, toaster oven, real dishes, etc. Not extravagant but totally adequate for most cold or reheatable meals.

    20. Aspiring Chicken Lady*

      Quart of yogurt lasts for a week in the office fridge, plus a jar of granola in my desk makes for a perfect breakfast. I like eating at work because it keeps my morning time management in check, and besides, I’m at my office 40 minutes before start because of my transit schedule. But not at my desk. I eat in the break room to keep the stickies at bay.

    21. Zephy*

      I have to be at work an hour earlier on Fridays than on other days of the week, leaving me with just 20 minutes to get up, get dressed, and get moving. I don’t want to wake up earlier on Fridays, so sometimes I will pack a breakfast along with my lunch, if I don’t want to buy a breakfast sandwich from the on-site coffeeshop. I have a plastic sandwich-size container that perfectly fits a smaller plastic sauce cup inside it, so I’ll fill the sandwich container with cereal and the sauce cup with milk, and eat the cereal at my desk. This morning I threw together a quick PB&J sandwich and just inhaled that over the sink before darting out the door, because I’m a classy and functional adult human person.

    22. Lalaith*

      Yes. I just don’t think I’d get myself into the kitchen at home with enough time to eat before I had to leave. These days I eat oatmeal, but I used to have yogurt. Nothing too time-consuming to make.

    23. Blue Bunny*

      Absolutely, I always eat breakfast at my desk. I start work at 6:30 AM, have an hour commute, and have to take medication on an empty stomach and wait an hour to eat. If I ate at home, I wouldn’t get lunch until eight hours after breakfast. I can’t handle that.

    24. Batgirl*

      I make overnight oats in a kilner jar and in the morning decide whether I’m eating it on the couch or taking it to work.

    25. ChimericalOne*

      I never have time to eat breakfast at home (thanks to ADD + Asperger’s + my husband being night owl & it being hard for me to go to bed before him to get the sleep my body apparently needs to function in the morning (which is — sadly — like, 8.5-9 hours)).

      So, if I eat breakfast at all, it’s a work. Often I just eat the main portion of my lunch early (like 10:00) and then don’t have anything for lunch. Maybe snack on pretzels in the afternoon or whatever’s left over.

    26. Parenthetically*

      I used to, yep! I made mini frittatas and heated them up (and sometimes made a slice of toast) while the kettle boiled for my tea, and then ate it while I got the computer fired up and looked at my lesson plans.

    27. iglwif*

      I work at home now, so I’m not sure how to answer this question XD

      When I worked in an office, though, I always ate breakfast at my desk. I started my workday at 8, I had to get my kid to bef0re-school care (which would feed her breakfast) in the opposite direction before work, there was just nooooo way to make that happen and also eat breakfast at home.

    28. Delta Delta*

      Before I worked for myself I usually ate breakfast at work (and now with the job I have self-created I’m basically always at work). I’ve never been able to eat first thing in the morning and I prefer to eat later in the day. It just worked out that way for me.

    29. CoffeeOnMyMind*

      Yup – both breakfast and lunch. It’s pretty typical for people to eat at their desks; it’s the only way for us to get through the work we have to do (hurray for 9 hour days).

    30. Polaris*

      Generally, yes. Mostly because I value my sleep to a very high degree and don’t get out of bed until right before I need to be out the door.

    31. Leah*

      I leave my house at 5am, so unfortunately I have no choice. I usually prepare a sandwich the day before, along with my lunch, and when I arrive in the office I fill up my water bottle, make myself a cup of herbal or black tea, and then sit down on my desk to eat and drink while my computer’s booting and I’m reading my e-mails. Some people suggested I do this at home before I leave, but that would mean waking up at least fifteen minutes earlier, and then having to wait about six to seven hours before I can eat anything again. No thank you!

    32. DAMitsDevon*

      I do! I’d rather know I can get to work early or on time and then eat without having to rush. Also, our office is in a WeWork, so there’s a really big kitchen space where I can sit and eat if I get there early, so I don’t have to eat at my desk and can decompress before starting the workday. It does restrict what I can eat, but I mostly just stick to heating up homemade instant oatmeal in the microwave.

    33. The Man, Becky Lynch*

      Absolutely.

      With me, I don’t do a lot of “hangtime” at home in the morning. I’ve always been a “get up and go” person and I’m not hungry until about an hour or so after getting up anyways. [Part of this is also due to my former long commutes too of course!]

      So I am ready to eat by the time I land in my desk. It works great for my schedule.

      I only eat dinner at home.

    34. Dollis Hill*

      I eat breakfast at work, because I find it hard to eat first thing in the morning and by the time I’m feeling ready to eat it’s time to leave. I usually have some porridge heated in the microwave and some fruit, and on payday I treat myself to a coffee and a pastry from the bakery near my office.

      At my last job (which was completely full of bees), my manager banned our team from eating breakfast at work because she thought it was unprofessional – her logic was that it apparently looked like we had got up late and were completely unprepared for the work day. Even if we got in early and ate in the kitchen before our contracted start time! So I used to wolf down a cereal bar or croissant on the bus to work, which was not ideal. She was totally fine with us eating lunch or afternoon snacks at our desks, she just had this weird “breakfast is for home” thing. I’m really enjoying working in a place where no one bats an eyelid if I eat breakfast at work, whether it’s in the kitchen before I start work or at my desk while I check emails go through my post.

    35. anonforthis*

      I do this. I keep toast and jam at the office, while some of my coworkers keep cereal and milk. We call ourselves the “breakfast club”.

    36. NoLongerYoungButLotsWiser*

      Maybe I’m unique in my “more meals per day is not a bad thing” approach, but since I’ve lost more than half my highest body weight (and kept it off for years), the “eat when I’m hungry, not by the clock” and “small meals more frequently” has served me well.
      I have a veggie Frittata in the morning. (Sometimes I make these in advance; or on a calmer morning, make a bigger one and save half for the next morning). Or a couple egg /veggie bake cups (these are like muffins, but egg and filling; bake,freeze, reheat.). Sometimes I eat them in the car (I have a 35 min drive) on rare occasions.
      Yeah – I’m hungry by 10:30-11. So I have packed a protein bar, Edamame, or sandwich (double meat, whole grain, or lettuce wrap), and a salad. I spread this out. I also have a sunflower seed kind of trail mix, and a banana, mandarins, etc. for my 3 pm. If I think it’s a grim day and I’m likely to run late, I also have more “stuff” (cheese sticks or mini-cheeses with crackers, sliced ham to wrap around the cheese – good heated, soup/bowl, etc. Leftovers at noon if possible. It’s really hard to be out of the house 12 hours… so I pack and plan to be hungry so I can keep thinking.
      Just wanted to encourage folks (if their jobs allow it) to have that apple and peanut butter, or whatever snack they need, every few hours. Snacking for me keeps the blood sugars level and my brain functioning – I see it as small, healthy meals…not as snack as junk.
      YMMV. but I do try to take walks away from my desk to have these in the kitchen (if possible) or sitting outside for 10 minutes to have the trail mix and decompress. (or even in my car). It’s helpful.

    37. Jaid*

      Yup. I wake up at 4.00 am, leave at 4.30, and get to work at 5.45. I have enough time to pick up a cup of coffee and the paper.

      I eat a packet of peanut butter crackers around 6 and then eat breakfast at my 8 am break… sometimes a bowl of grains, sometimes a kitchen sink eggs/veggies and a couple slices of scrapple. I also bring in a green smoothie to supplement that.

    38. Elizabeth West*

      I did at Exjob, mostly because I could. I was not on the front desk and it was no big deal for people to come in and then fix themselves a cup of coffee or a snack. I always had my coffee at home before I came in, and then I’d spend the first half hour at work getting caught up with anything in my inbox. Then I’d go into the break room and make a cup of tea (in my AAM mug!) and a little food.

      And I’m rarely hungry first thing in the morning. Even with a giant coffee, it takes time for me to wake up enough to want to eat. That could change if I start walking earlier in the day, but for now, it’s just the way it is. If I moved and had to commute, I guess I’d have to get up earlier and eat then.

    39. CL*

      Yes. I’m not a morning person and it takes every ounce of my will to get up early enough to fit in a run, get myself and my kids ready, and get them to daycare before I arrive at the office by 8:30 (very lucky to live in a rural state with a 10-minute “commute”). My breakfasts are usually prepared the night before and don’t take prep time once I get to the office, such as oatmeal, smoothies, granola bars, etc, And lunch is at my desk, unless I have to go home to let the dog out.

    40. Betty*

      I have a smoothie during my commute (I drive). I start work earlier than my spouse so I like to minimize how much time I take getting out the door.

    41. The Other Dawn*

      Yes. I typically bring hard-boiled eggs, or yogurt and peanuts, stuff like that. I might heat up my leftover diner breakfast from the weekend. I don’t have enough time to eat at home. I have all I can do to get out of the house on time. I have no excuse other than I’m not good at preparing for work the night before, other than to make my iced mocha latte. Clothing, food and anything else gets dealt with in the morning.

    42. NACSACJACK*

      Yes I do and have for a couple months now, maybe longer. I used to eat fast food, but started getting sick having the same foods over and over. Then because we now have a daily meeting every morning and then more meetings after that, I discovered that I couldn’t take meetings from home in the AM (nothing in the fridge/meetings ran past 1030am when most fast food joints switch over to lunch) and I just made a change and started getting to work 15 mins before the meeting (enough time to walk to the cafeteria and back). Then because of Lent, I discovered how cheap a veggie omlet is at our cafeteria and how less ill I felt afterwards. Wish I could do it at home, but no time.

  13. Partly Cloudy*

    Hiring managers: when you’re interviewing to replace someone you’re planning to let go, how honest are you with the candidates about why the position is (will be) open? I want to be honest, yet not over-share. I figure whoever gets hired is going to find out the whole truth anyway.

    Thoughts?

    1. Emmie*

      Good question. I would be matter of fact about it, but not share more than others on your team will know. “I have someone in this role now who will be departing.” Or, “I am terminating someone in this role due to performance issues. If I offer you this role, I expect you to keep this information confidential. I’m telling you this so you have historical knowledge relevant to your role. I need someone who can x, y, and z. This person will also have to improve relationships with the teapots team because….”. You may want to include training information too.

      1. Not Me*

        I would not tell a candidate about the performance issues of another (just like I wouldn’t tell an employee about another employee). That would be a huge red flag to me that the manager cannot keep information confidential and I’d be worried they’d talk to others about my own performance.

        Unless you’ve already told the employee being terminated that they are being terminated I’d keep that to myself also. Having someone find out they are going to be terminated by a third party is incredibly unprofessional.

        A simple “we have a position open on the team” should suffice.

        1. irene adler*

          There is the issue of candidate asking follow-up questions-
          Is this a new position or am I replacing someone?
          If I am replacing someone, why are they vacating the position? (Did they leave on a positive note?)

          So while I do agree not to bring up performance issues of others (yes! A manager demonstrating a lack of confidentiality is very troublesome!), there will be need to answer follow-up questions.

    2. Sled dog mama*

      As long as your response isn’t a hostile “I’m not going to answer that” if should be fine. Getting that was a big red flag for me at an interview.

    3. RandomU...*

      I would try for ‘not specific but leaves it open to read between the lines’

      “We currently have someone in the position, but we don’t expect them to be with us much longer, which is why we are working to fill the upcoming vacancy. Right now their are some gaps between position needs and the person filling the role that we’d like to address with the successful candidate”

      I figure something like this would be truthful and doesn’t necessarily call out performance issues. But does indicate there was something not right with the fit. In other words you want to be as truthful as possible, but you don’t want to leave the candidates thinking that you are/would badmouth employees.

    4. Spreadsheets and Books*

      I asked this question in an interview for my current job. I was told that the last hire “didn’t work out.” I feel like that was adequate explanation and doesn’t necessarily imply anything bad about either the employer or the employee. Jobs don’t work out on both sides for any number of reasons.

      1. Partly Cloudy*

        But is this a safe answer even if the person who isn’t working out… is still working? Or am I overthinking this?

      2. Joielle*

        See, whereas if I got that answer in an interview, I’d need more information – Was there something about the position that the person didn’t like? How long were they in the position? How often have you hired for the position recently?

        1. Partly Cloudy*

          Yeah. This is how I’d be – how I was – as a candidate too. It never crossed my mind that these questions are potentially awkward for the interviewer until I became the interviewer.

    5. Federal Middle Manager*

      From the interviewee’s perspective, what they likely want to know is 1) will they be overlapping/training with the outgoing person, 2) will they be able to rely on the going person’s work as examples of how to do their job, and 3) if the outgoing person is leaving for due to lack of success, is it because the outgoing person genuinely wasn’t capable/a good fit OR because the position is impossible and future employees are equally being set up for failure (unrealistic expectations, project not supported by management, etc.).

      You can and should be able to address all these concerns without getting into the details of the outgoing employee’s departure.

    6. Clementine*

      Have you told the person that you are planning to let them go? If not, definitely do not tell the candidate. What if they are friends or otherwise know each other? In any event, don’t say anything to the candidate you wouldn’t say directly to the person currently in the role.

    7. Alanna of Trebond*

      I would just say “They’re leaving the company” and leave it at that. It’s possible they just want to know if the person got an internal promotion, got a cool job elsewhere, etc.

      If they’re really pushing on whether the person was fired, you can say something like, we can’t discuss specific personnel decisions, but I can tell you about how we handle performance issues more generally, if you’re interested…

  14. Dino*

    What do you do when you just hate your boss? Like, to the point where you have no respect for them and actively avoid them at all costs? I know get a new job is the actual solution, but until then how does one cope?

    1. Ditto*

      As a coping mechanism, whenever I feel angry at my boss I go look at job postings and send off a resume. Very therapeutic.

      1. Super Dee Duper Anon*

        I took a similar approach when I was stuck with a boss that I just could not work for! I was actively job seeking, but whenever I got particularly frustrated I would bring up the LinkedIn Jobs app on my phone and find a couple of posting to quickly hit the EasyApply button for. Something about applying for jobs while sitting 10ft away from her somehow helped me keep my sanity long enough to get out.

        1. valentine*

          Focus on the things you control. It’s like with the manager who insisted his typo of the wrong year was actually a deliberate choice. You accept that and move on. You do your work as well as you can within the BS constraints they may impose.

    2. Partly Cloudy*

      Try either thinking of them as a TV/movie character or observe them as if they’re an anthropological experiment. They’re not magical solutions, but they help. Sometimes.

      1. VLookupsAreMyLife*

        I may or may not have started writing a fictional short story with Boss as the evil villain and me as the protagonist who avenged herself…

    3. Jubilance*

      I tried to limit my time with them as much as possible, and I focused on the things that I could control.

      And of course, job hunting and networking.

    4. Workerbee*

      A devious tactic is to send your boss’s resume out to headhunters. Mind you, I have only thought this, never actually done it.

      1. MsChaos*

        This sort of is what I did. Not a boss, but an extremely annoying person who taught with me in a middle school. She often talked about a certain type of position she really wanted, which was to work in Transition Services for our school district (helping students with special needs prepare for work and life after high school). I have to admit that while I was driven by pettiness, I also understood that she was unhappy as a classroom teacher, so I called a couple people I knew as well as searched the district websites every other day for openings in this office. Got a line on a couple, told her about them, she applied and got one of the desired positions. She was very, very happy, but made jokes about how I “got rid of her” to other teachers. I mean, even if you can’t stand someone, you can still be concerned that it’s the result of work unhappiness and try to help.

    6. epi*

      The last time I couldn’t stand my boss, I left for grad school so I had a period where I was leaving but no one knew. (I still gave like two months’ notice but I had known for like three months before that.)

      I reviewed my benefits and put in for anything useful that I had kind of overlooked before. For example, we had an employee computer purchase program and some discounts at businesses that were helpful in preparing for grad school. I also quietly put in for any PTO that was important to me in my final summer there. Between summer holidays, a few weddings, and a couple of mental health days, I arranged to have all my final weeks be four days. (Obviously since I’d known for months I was leaving, things were in good enough shape I could do this. Giving them more than two weeks helped too.)

      Other than that, have you ever found out you’ve been behaving inappropriately or alienating someone for a while, and they never told you? They just went on, letting you make an ass of yourself and silently resenting you? It sucks! And it’s what’s happening to your boss right now as your ride out your remaining time with a smile on your face. My last day was coffee and unwanted life advice with one boss; giving my notice involved a hug from the other. I get a weird satisfaction out of that, that they never understood how I really saw them.

    7. De-Archivist*

      Don’t tell anyone, but I pretend that they don’t exist when I can’t see physically see them. I don’t say their name aloud. I don’t talk about them. I try not to think about them. I imagine that I only have a job to do and no boss to monitor me, so all of my work has to be exemplary because there’s no one there to catch my mistakes.

      If they appear, then I’m in the moment and respond normally, and if someone says, “hey, boss wants you to do X,” I’m not like “who?” I just mean that I play a quiet mental game of totally avoiding their existence when I can.

    8. LadyByTheLake*

      Working remotely whenever I could helped (as did concentrating on getting out of there). Constant mantra “this too shall pass, this too shall pass.”

    9. BeeGee*

      I just exited this situation, here are some of my tips and tricks:
      1. Set meetings/discussions with the boss so that you get as much information up front about any projects so that you have to talk to them less often. It’s a win-win in that you are still doing work, you just have to interact with them less!
      2. After frustrating discussions with my manager, I would admittedly write down or type a bunch of mean stuff I wanted to scream out loud (how dumb/incompetent/irrational they or their ideas were etc etc) but of course be sure to delete/destroy these things so they never saw the light of day ever.

  15. Geheim*

    Recently, the contractors at my US company were all brought on full-time. They worked together to learn how to negotiate compensation, shared strategies, and proofread each other’s letters. They all successfully negotiated packages they are happy with. (Woo! Thanks, Alison!)

    Now formerly model employees in this cohort are suddenly getting a lot of “complaints to HR” about small things that have never been a problem before. At least one manager has tried to claim there is a company policy against discussing compensation with colleagues.

    If the aim is to work together to improve the workplace before resorting to nuclear options, what would you advise?

    1. Troutwaxer*

      Perhaps someone can speak more competently to this than I can, but it is legal to discuss your compensation with coworkers (and probably illegal to tell employees that they cannot.)

    2. Not Me*

      Discussing compensation is generally considered protected concerted activity, so I’d advise that manager to stop telling people not to do that.

      What are the small things they are complaining about? Just because they weren’t a problem before doesn’t mean the new employees should, by default, be ok with them.

    3. Liane*

      I’d tell HR & managers some version of this: “We don’t want to run afoul of the Nation Labor Relations Board, which forbids companies from restricting employee discussion of working conditions including salaries/wages. So, if this is a company policy, we need to stop enforcing/referring to it and start the process to remove it. Also, these constant minor ‘complaints to HR’ about employees who negotiated their compensation here may be construed as retaliation, which is also against the law.”

  16. Amber Rose*

    I’m on a pretty carefully designed meal plan right now to deal with some health problems and an eating disorder. One of my rules is NO sugar treats at work. Period. I can’t have any, because I can’t control it the way I need to and I’m an all or nothing sort. I can’t have a piece, I need the whole thing or my control collapses and bad things happen.

    We’re doing a lunch time training on some new software next week and to get us to show up at lunch, they’re bribing us with cake and ice cream. Although at this point I can actually say no when I’m offered like donuts and things, I’m less confident about my ability to sit in a room with 40 people eating cake and ice cream for an hour.

    I don’t know what I’m supposed to do. Can I just skip it, do you think? Make something up about a very important lunch appointment and run away?

    1. Bee's Knees*

      You could always use the excuse I do when I don’t want a donut/whatever someone brought. I am hypoglycemic, and I usually just say something about how I can’t have that much sugar, and most of the time people will drop it.

      1. Amber Rose*

        It’s not about what other people say. It’s entirely about me, and my ability to be around food without snapping and going on a sugar binge.

        1. Bee's Knees*

          Ah. Then yes, I think you need to go to the dentist/doctor/whatever, and would be fine to miss the cake eating. And good job trying to stick to rules that will get you healthy. That isn’t easy.

    2. Anonysand*

      You might be able to get away with stepping out for an “appointment” or some errands, but could you also pack your own safe-to-eat treats for the duration of the cake and ice cream? That way you get something acceptable/healthy to eat that can fill you up (and maybe not make those treats look so tempting?) as well as still be around in case you need the face time.

      1. Amber Rose*

        It’s the sugar though. I have no self control around sugar. I can say no to donuts I don’t have to see, but I’m concerned I will definitely lose control around that much sugar for that long.

        Being full has nothing to do with it. Part of my problem with food is that I must eat all the food. I’ll eat until my stomach is screaming in pain and then probably still eat a little more. I’ve only been working on this for two months. My control is not that great.

        1. Fortitude Jones*

          If you really can’t control yourself, your best bet is to come up with a sudden appointment and skip it entirely. Putting yourself in a situation that’s going to make dealing with your eating disorder just shouldn’t be an option. Ask them if you can do the training remotely from your desk since you have an important call you can’t miss.

          1. Anonysand*

            Yep, agreed. I wouldn’t even risk it if that’s the case. Definitely have a sudden appointment or excuse yourself with a headache and step out for the duration to go buy some advil/take a break/etc.

        2. londonedit*

          I’m not sure whether you’d have enough standing in the company to be able to ask for this, but could you ask that the cakes and ice-cream are set out on a table outside the training room? Then you’d just have to walk past on your way in, and you could try and sit a little bit away from everyone else (assuming they’re literally going to be eating cake while the training is going on). Another option is to maybe ask for the cake and ice cream to be set up outside while everyone’s in the training session, and then they get it as a reward once the session is over? That way might work even better, because then you can just scoot off back to your desk straight after the meeting. But it depends on whether your bosses/whoever’s organising would be happy to accommodate those requests, if it’s just one person who’s asking.

          1. Commenter*

            Ooh great idea, asking if the treats could be brought out at the end as a “reward” so you don’t have to watch others eating during the meeting!

          2. VLookupsAreMyLife*

            Third-ed!

            If this doesn’t work, could you set a timer on your phone to step out & call your sponsor/friend/accountability person? I don’t know what supports you are currently using as part of your recovery program. But, maybe telling some in advance & having a pre-scheduled “check in” before/during/after the session would help?

            Sending good thoughts your way!

          3. zora*

            This was my thought, I would ask who ever is organizing if the treats can be set up after the training is over, for people to take back to their desks. I am the one who organizes these things in my office, and if you asked me this privately, I would 100% do it. It wouldn’t really matter either way to the other people, they still get their ice cream, so I’d be happy to reorganize things!

        3. smoke tree*

          That’s a tough one. Do you think your manager would be understanding if you laid out the situation for them? Maybe there are some supplementary training materials you could get instead, or see if someone could take notes? Or maybe they could structure it so the ice cream and cake are kept separate from the training itself? Otherwise, if the training isn’t super essential, it might be time for a scheduling conflict.

        4. Probably actually a hobbit*

          You’re it a touchy spot in your eating disorder management – I’d have a doctor’s appointment then. That’s best for your health anyway — could you actually schedule an appointment with whoever helps you with this for that time?

    3. AbaxSC*

      Could you take some cough drops, and keep one in your mouth the whole hour? It will combat the cake smell, and maybe the sweets won’t be as appealing?

      1. Moosic*

        I second that, and pick a flavor that you know will be awful with cake. Or, if they don’t mind gum as long as you chew with your mouth closed, try that, which I what I pop in my mouth when I’m desperate. Maybe a strong tea, like a vanilla rooiboos or Daydreamer’s Tea from Labrang which have a sweet taste without the sugar, and you’ll feel you get a treat too.

      2. Not So NewReader*

        In the same line, I was going to suggest chewing gum. There are some natural gums out there without cane sugar, you can find some at health food stores.

    4. CupcakeCounter*

      I have a coworker who is on a medically ordered diet at the moment and our manager has allowed him to skip events with food he isn’t allowed to have. For one meeting he joined via Skype from the floor above.
      Talk to your manager and say that per Dr’s orders you cannot have the cake and ice cream but are having a hard time with your personal will power at the moment and is there any way you can do the training at another time. Good news is most people will assume that you are on an elimination diet for allergies.

        1. Amber Rose*

          It might actually be possible to do that as part of the training. Maybe I’ll talk to the presenter.

    5. Emmie*

      It sounds like you’re looking for permission to skip the training, and that’s something your manager can decide. We cannot tell you if that’s okay. I don’t intend to be cruel. I say this as someone who struggles tremendously with food control and sugar issues. If you are receiving help or support with your health problems and eating disorder, perhaps you can work on coping mechanisms for future meetings.

    6. I Just Work Here*

      Can you bring your own snack that would fit in with your meal plan? It could even be a special treat kind of meal. Or just a fruit bowl that you’ve hyped yourself up for.
      Also, just because cake and ice cream are offered doesn’t mean everyone will be eating. There could be people who are lactose intolerant, gluten-free, or diabetic, that you just don’t know about. And will there be a trial period on the software or are you just watching a webinar kind of thing? There may not be an overlap between the eating portion and the training portion. You could check in with the meeting organizer to ask about the schedule.

      Don’t miss out on professional development because of something that already makes your life more difficult.
      You can do it!

    7. CM*

      I don’t know if you’re comfortable saying this to your manager, but you could explain that you’re dealing with an eating disorder and feel it would endanger your health to attend the training. Or, first you could just say you have a conflict during the training and ask if there’s an alternative, and then if you get pushback, you could give that explanation (and to explain the “conflict,” you could start, “I had hoped not to have to disclose this, but…”

      If you’re not comfortable saying that, you can still certainly ask if there’s a different time you could do the training. You might also want to check online to see if there is an online version of the training you could do at your desk.

    8. CatCat*

      Can your bring your own food? Like, pack in a bowl of whatever your meal plan allows and take that to the training and maybe also have a beverage on hand. So you will have something to eat while other people are also eating. This tactic has worked for me during birthday celebrations. As long as I keep my hands occupied and have something to put in my mouth, I find I can skip the sugary treats that people around me are eating.

    9. What She Said*

      Is there a drink you can have that will distract you? I love warm water and when I want to avoid snacking during meetings I take a drink instead. It’s not always perfect but it helps the majority of the time.

    10. Commenter*

      Might it help if you were able to eat something healthy during this time (as a distraction of sorts, so you aren’t just sitting there watching everyone else eat the treats)?

      If so, could you suggest they could offer some “real food” along with the treats (since it’s *at* lunchtime, I imagine there’d be others who would want to eat a real lunch before indulging in ice cream)? Or could you bring your own lunch to eat to keep your mind off the treats? If it wouldn’t be a slippery slope, could you allow yourself to eat something “on plan” but maybe somewhat more indulgent than you’d normally allow yourself, like putting extra yummy dressing on your salad, or something?

      Not sure if that idea necessarily translates, but just thinking of ways you could “reward”/”treat” yourself in an alternate way to help calm the temptation/stress of the moment.

    11. CheeryO*

      Any chance you could convince them to record the session and make it available to anyone who isn’t able to attend? I’d be shocked if everyone who needed the training was able to attend – that’s a lot of people to wrangle.

      1. valentine*

        I think a recording you use on a different day (to further divorce it from the food) is the best possibility. You can say you have lunch plans you can’t change, then go out for long enough that, if you were, say, meeting someone who canceled, it still wouldn’t make sense for you to join the training. It sounds like the bribe is an all-you-can-eat training session. If asked to delay, I think they’ll say majority rules. If they did have the sweets post-training, though, might you spend the entire time plotting to grab some on your way out?

        Might your manager be willing to help you avoid office sweets by exempting you from future in-person attendance?

    12. Kuododi*

      Speaking as a diabetic, I have found packing snacks to be personally helpful in helping me stay out of the desserts/away from Starbucks frappucinos. ;) (I’ll bag up fruit slices, raw veggies, a protein bar to help keep my sugars on balance for the day.).
      You mentioned eating disorder as part of the reason why you are on your current meal plan. Are you seeing an eating disorder specialist or involved in some type of support program? If so please reach out to them as they will have ideas for this situation that are outside our field of reference here at AAM. My very best wishes to you.

      2. Amber Rose*

        Not yet. It’s hard to get support right now because of the other issues. Basically, I don’t have any doctors I can trust right now. My husband is working on that one for me since he works with doctors. But everything takes time.

        Snacks don’t help because over eating is my problem. I have to control portions more than content. I weigh it all out. I’m trying to re-train my brain to understand what an appropriate amount of food looks like.

    13. WellRed*

      personally, I think you should see if you can opt out this time, but are you sure people will actually be eating for the entire hour? It’s software training, how is that even possible?

      1. Amber Rose*

        It’s more like a software presentation. Everyone in a room watching someone do stuff on the projection screen.

        We’re doing this whole huge overhaul of all our software since the older members who objected have retired.

        1. Sara*

          I would definitely check to see if you can attend virtually or have it recorded and watch it later. They should be able to either do a live video conference or record it for you – I’m in a professional org that frequently does hybrid in-person/virtual meetings with screen sharing and everything. If it’s something necessary for you to attend, that seems like the best solution – otherwise, I agree that suddenly having a very important appointment can be good as well.

        2. iglwif*

          That really seems like something you should be able to do remotely, IMO. Would your workplace be open to you skyping or zooming or whatever instead of being in the room with the cake & ice cream?

        3. WellRed*

          In that case, I second the idea above about skyping in or whatever because it sounds like you are at a delicate stage in your new eating plan.

    14. Not A Manager*

      “We’re doing a lunch time training on some new software next week and to get us to show up at lunch, they’re bribing us with cake and ice cream.”

      It sounds like attendance isn’t very mandatory, if they need to bribe people to attend. If that’s the case, and they are offering cake and ice cream to lure people in who just can’t be assed to attend otherwise, then I think you’re perfectly safe to just skip it.

      Make up an appointment or some urgent work if you need to, but keep it casual. It doesn’t sound like you need special permission from your manager or a conversation with HR. Just pick the easiest, lowest-kay way to not attend (like everyone else who isn’t bribable with sweet treats), and learn the software some other way.

      Good for you for prioritizing your health right now.

      1. Reba*

        Agree with this.

        If you really need to be off-premises while the cake is going on, I think “healthcare appointment” works as a reason — it’s actually true in this case, since leaving the office is for your health! ED recovery can be so hard, best wishes to you Amber Rose

    15. Lucy*

      If it’s about your internal conflict, could you create external pressure? That is, if you knew that someone else you trust would be in each one of these meetings, could you arrange with her to hold you accountable or run interference etc as necessary?

      I don’t think I’m explaining this at all well, but if you thought that you’d be letting Susan down by eating a doughnut that might be more compelling than the idea of following your own rule. Similarly, the idea that Susan would be proud of you for resisting might be more tempting than some stale greasy frosted bread that everyone else has been breathing over for however long. Susan doesn’t need to know precise chapter and verse about why you need the backup.

      Eating disorders are very difficult to navigate, and even harder on your own. That’s why I’m wondering if there’s someone external you can recruit to support you.

      Best of luck.

    16. Delta Delta*

      Sounds like the training itself is at lunch time and the cake and ice cream is also at lunch. Maybe ask the facilitator if the cake and ice cream can come out AFTER the training so you can make an exit (and maybe go outside?) and not feel tempted?

    17. Hedgehug*

      Brush your teeth before the meeting!! Nothing tastes worse than eating or drinking something after brushing your teeth with a super minty toothpaste.

    18. Not So NewReader*

      This may not be helpful right now but I reached a point if I just had something I could do with my hands that was enough to distract me from the fact that I was not eating sugary things with everyone.

      And another suggestion that does you no good for the immediate, but it might help over the weeks to come is to try to get more rest. When I came down off of sugar I found I had super energy, like 24 hour energy. It was hard to rest. But rest does allow us to have more control over our thoughts and impulses. So what I had was a designated bed time with an hour before that I could use for reading. See, this is a sly one, I read stuff that would fill up my brain so I had other things to think about. Sometimes I read about whole foods and what food helps what problem. Other times I read about making natural cleaners, because I discovered I was very interested in that. This hour of reading gave me new material to distract myself with and helped me wind down so I could get to sleep sooner. Once I started sleeping more I was able to control my impulses better. Again, not an instant solution, but of some help over the long run.

  17. epi*

    Has anyone else had an office that they just can’t seem to look their best in? I am very happy that I just moved out of building that seemed to hate me personally.

    The air there was so dry, I had to change up my products and wash my hair less frequently or else I would look like a ball of frizz and flyaways within a few hours. Flyaways aren’t even a big problem for me normally, except there. The lighting was terrible– literally every window was inside a private office or conference room with solid walls, and I didn’t get an office. My makeup, which looks fine everywhere else– it is sheer “you but better” stuff e.g. Benetint– would somehow fade yet look clownish under their bathroom lighting by the afternoon. Either the lighting, the dry air, or both consistently made my skin look sad. About once a year, some allergen would get in the building and make me miserable there for a couple of days. I don’t normally suffer from allergies.

    If you worked in another building from hell, what did you do? Change up your products/routine until you found something that could withstand the environment? Change nothing and stop trusting the fluorescent-lit bathroom mirror? Just get out?

    1. MissDisplaced*

      I actually left. Not solely for this reason, but it was a contributing reason.
      We moved to an inner-city location. Parking sucked, talking like human poop in the stairwells.
      Open office plan, with weird pendant lights that hung down very low over the desks. You couldn’t adjust or turn off individual lights… so they were on and glaring right on my monitors and in the eyeline. These gave me such headaches! I could not stand it. I once even put up a black umbrella to block them.
      Was so glad to leave that place.

    2. blink14*

      I’m currently in what used to be known as a “sick building” by the previous occupant. I’ve had offices on multiple floors, and no location makes a difference. The air is either incredibly dry (lack of humidity makes it hard for your body to fight off bacteria, allergies, etc) or swampy. The air temp and humidity varies from office to office, suite to suite, floor to floor, because the office spaces have been redesigned so many times that the duct system in most areas no longer makes sense. Some spots have multiple vents, some have very few or even none. Working in this building has triggered pretty severe chronic sinusitis that seems to finally be calming down some, but the worst sinus infections of my life have all been while working in this building.

      Things I’ve done – use a humidifier (this only goes so far in a cube, but it does help a bit) and ask for an air filter. Again, being in a cube it only does so much, but I keep it on the floor right next to me. I also try to do a nasal rinse at least a few times a week (ideally it would be daily, but I find it painful sometimes). Antihistamine nasal spray, Flonase, and allergy medication are all in use at some points during the year for me, the allergy meds daily.

    3. Errol*

      Yup – my current job! it also doesn’t help that we usually don’t wear make up here either (safety issue) and can’t wear our hair down (even though I’m in the office). I make a point to not really look at myself in the mirror in the bathrooms here or it makes me feel real crappy about myself. Just a glance if I got something way out of wack or on my face or something. I use my phone in my office (it has a giant window) on meeting days when I’m actually wearing make up

      I use a bit of dry shampoo after washing my hair that helped with the frizz, but my poor face is so dry it’s flaking and has been for the last year-ish I’ve worked here. Nothing works to help how dry my skin is. I’ve tried everything short of getting prescription stuff to try and help. Nothing.

        1. ChimericalOne*

          Maybe Errol works in a chemical plant? Flaking makeup could contaminate something, I guess?

      2. Errol*

        Welding and machine shop. There are tiny bits of metal that fly around, and they get under your safety glasses sometimes – not much you can do about it. We also work with a ton of gasses, dangerous chemicals, and have a plasma table. So consistently at risk for flash burn or bits of metal in the eye which all make up will aggravate and require longer to heal and could potentially cause infection.

        TBH – I think someone a long time ago was a dummy and they got an infection in the eye from not wearing proper PPE and now it’s a blanket rule.

      3. Inspector Cramer*

        I tend to be really dehydrated and sometimes have face flaking issues. If you haven’t yet tried this, can I suggest adding Aquaphor (or Vaseline) to your routine? When I have bad days, at night I put on a generous layer of really moisturizing face lotion that sinks the most into my skin, which is currently Derma E Hydrating Night Cream. Then I give that a couple of minutes and do a thin layer of Aquaphor on top all over. It’s occlusive, so it doesn’t so much sink in itself, but it makes sure the cream underneath is sealed in tight so it has the best chance to full moisturize. It’s a weird feeling at first but stick with it and see how you feel in the morning.

    4. Troutwaxer*

      Find someone who looks good while working there and see if they’ll discuss their hair/makeup routine?

    5. Moray*

      I try to remind myself: there are times when you can care about your appearance, but work is not one of those; nobody is really paying attention to the fine details of your appearance. So it’s totally cool to fuss a bit about how you look, but you can save your energy for dates/outings/whatnot where people will actually notice.

      1. MOAS*

        But makeup/hair/appearance etc isn’t really for anyone’s benefit, it’s for one’s own. I’m hoping that more and more people are getting away from the idea that caring about your appearance is for others to notice.

      2. epi*

        I really don’t think that is right. In most office environments, it is inappropriate to not care about your appearance. I am talking about having crazy, unkempt hair, distractingly unnatural makeup, and looking ill. Of course that is inappropriate to have going on all the time at work. It’s also unpleasant to work in a desert-dry office that periodically sheds something you are allergic to.

        Since you don’t know anything about my personal grooming, I think it is weird that you would assume my problem is that I “fuss” about my appearance or am putting date-level energy into dressing for work.

        1. Autumnheart*

          No, you talked about “looking your best” and about the way your skin and/or hair look in specific lighting or humidity. It would be one thing if one were in a business-formal, high-value client-facing workplace, but for the average desk worker, this is way more attention than anyone is paying to your skin and hair. Nobody is noticing how you look in certain lighting, any more than you’re noticing how they look. (Unless you are, in which case, quit it.)

          As someone who started working at my current job in my very early 30s and am now in my mid-40s, you just have to learn to forgive yourself for having flaws. Eventually those eye bags and crow’s feet and weird hairs are not going to be because the lighting is bad or the building is dry—it’s going to be because you have eye bags and weird hairs that stick up! In the end, you’re at work to work, even if you spill mustard on your shirt and have a bad hair day. Keep a little kit of travel sizes handy and touch up in the afternoon if you really feel that it’s necessary, but otherwise…that’s life.

    6. CheeryO*

      This is me at my current job. Our building has terrible lighting, terrible HVAC, and some sort of mold or extreme dust issue that is hell on my sinuses. I’ve given up on caring about it. My hair ends up in a bun most days, and I just wear my normal light makeup. Once in a while I get a “you look sick/tired,” but I really think most people don’t pay that much attention, especially if you’re polished otherwise.

    7. Blue Bunny*

      Yes, current job is like this. The company uses chemicals that seep odor everywhere, and my eyes and nose are constantly irritated, so I’ve mostly given up on contact lenses. Plus my office is always freezing, so there’s no point in bothering with nice work clothes, since every day is “gray cardigan I leave at my desk” day.

      If it helps, I’ve used this opportunity to drastically overhaul my eating habits, use of supplements, and skincare routine. I may be a frumpy mess on the outside, but I’m paying immaculate attention to the inside!

      1. epi*

        One time I ended up in the elevator with the former occupant of my office. “Sometimes it is hot…. Sometimes it is cold,” he told me. By that time, I knew all too well.

        I have recently changed my skincare routine quite a bit, and I wonder sometimes if it would have helped in my old building. But I’m fine with never knowing, and working somewhere even the little people are allowed to know if it’s raining. :)

    8. HS Teacher*

      I worked in a classroom where the temperature on the thermostat was controlled by Central Office. Three classrooms were on the same thermostat and the air did not distribute evenly. Furthermore, one wall was large windows that had a western exposure so we got the afternoon sun. We were not allowed to put up curtains or blinds because of the outside aesthetics of the building — they wanted a uniform, neat look. My seventh period had thirty students. According to my classroom thermometer it was usually ~78-85 degrees Fahrenheit everyday. I tried fans, one in the front of the room and another in the back. The main result of that was that no one could hear and the fans moved the hot air around the room. Once a Vice Principal visited. She spent the entire time near the open door fanning herself. She left after about five or ten minutes. The teenagers complained ever single day. Oh, yes, I was also dealing with hot flashes. Every day after school I was drained and sick. I often had a headache. I got a haircut and purchased an new, lighter weight wardrobe. However, mainly I was miserable.

    9. Overeducated*

      …stop making an effort?

      It’s sad but true. I upped my game when I moved to a nicer, more formal building. Got sent back to old building for a short term assignment and it’s amazing how fast things have gone downhill. The thing is, nobody looks amazing here.

    10. BeeGee*

      I feel your struggle! I have combo skin (dry but oily/acne prone in some areas). My favorite foundation is a medium but buildable foundation, Estée Lauder double wear. I swear by it, it looks good all day and doesn’t melt off mid day like others I have tried. I use that in combination with tarte shape tape concealer to make sure any acne and dark circles stay covered! Buying an eyeshadow primer has also been a game changer to making sure my eyeshadow doesn’t melt off. To combat the dryness for your skin, I like this clean and clear morning burst gel moisturizer which is water based and oil free, so it doesn’t clog pores! Be sure to drink lots of water throughout the workday and I like any of those refreshing mist sprays which don’t affect your makeup. I use the Mario Badesceu (sp?) rose water. I have almost pin straight hair but I sometimes use a serum to help smooth the ends down, like the sleek and shine products from garnier fructise (again, probably butchered spelling). Hope that helps!!

    11. I See Real People*

      Yes, this +1000! I can’t figure out why my hair and makeup look horrible in three bathroom mirrors in my office building, yet when I get to my car and home, I look normal. They say it’s the lighting, but I swear, I’ve never looked worse to myself than when I’m in this building.

  18. Dragoning*

    So how does one put in a written request for a raise?

    Context: I’m a W2 contractor/leased employee, whatever you like to call it. My contract is coming up, and instead of extending it like they have for the past two years, labor laws now require me to take a 30 day furlough. When I come back (and they have already announced my new start date and scheduled me for projects post-return, so I’m not especially concerned about that), I will have a brand new contract, and quite frankly, I’d like a raise.

    They did not give me anything last year, even a COLA. Gross. Last year one of my coworkers had his furlough and received a raise afterward under the same conditions–but he does do a different job than I and likely works for a different contracting company.

    When I put this information to my recruiting contact, he asked me to send over things to justify the raise, only I’ve never done this before and am I not entirely sure what to say.

    It took about 5 months for me to be fully trained and qualified to do all the ins-and-outs of my day-to-day job. I’ve been assigned to projects (do those count as things to put in a raise, if they went reasonably well? I was assigned as project manager to one, but it was a baby project and I likely wouldn’t be in the future). I have taken on new duties, but my description in the system and what I was really hired to do don’t match up that well, so it’s hard to really nail down what are “expanded” duties.

    And I really don’t know how to format/word any of this in an email to my recruiter.

    1. CynicallySweet*

      Bc ur job description doesn’t match what you really do it might be helpful to instead think of how your job was initially described and the duties you were initially assigned to do, and then talk about how the role has grown since then. Baby projects totally count BTW (I just maybe wouldn’t stress them as much as bigger ones).

      It might also help to think of it as listing off all of the ways that you have been an asset to the company rather than just as an expansion of the role itself.

      This is from someone who’s never been a contracter, but I went thru a very similar process last year for my raise so I’m hoping it can still help (and my job description is also way off from my actual job)

      1. Dragoning*

        I’m told they’re gonna retool my job description while I’m away and hopefully when I’m back it will actually…resemble my job. The title the contracting firm gave me isn’t even the same as what everyone here calls my job title.

        I guess I’m struggling, because all I was “assigned to” initially was…training? I work in pharma, so it’s a heavily regulated industry and I needed a basic level of qualifications to be able to do much of anything productive. For the first month I was here, I pretty much didn’t do anything but read documentation, and then I got started on my main qualification process, and it took months before I could do any of it so it “counted” (didn’t need to be redone by someone fully qualified).

        1. CynicallySweet*

          But you did get those qualifications, which you didn’t have when they initially hired you and therefore you weren’t getting paid for having them! I can’t really tell how new you are from your post. But I would definately mention the qualifications in the email.

          If u feel weird about that bc they’re necessary to do the job then think of it this way: if you leave they’ll have to wait 5 months for someone else to get trained up b4 they could start working (or more idk n ow typical the 5 months r). You’re saving them that wait time.

          I would still maybe tie it more to the initial job duties than the description, esp bc it’s getting rewritten after you’ve done the work for awhile and the changes you’ve made might be included in the new description (tho “impacted the duties described in newly re-written job description” could be a point in ur favor to mention)

  19. MOAS*

    I was just recently promoted to a manager. I have 2 people under me, 2 people “on loan” and we’ll be adding to the team eventually. I’ve been at my company for almost 5 years now. I have 2 co-managers who have their own reports, one is in office and the ohter is remote.

    I’m ending out the 2nd week in my new position. It’s been mostly clean up of the process and a lot of meetings but so far so good.

    next week we start interviewing for remote people.

    I did ask a few weeks ago but now it’s a reality. I’m going through the open threads & Archives about interviewing. These will be video interviews, and i think I’m more nervous as the interviewer. I’ve done phone calls and a few in person, but something about video just makes me nervous lol.

    1. Federal Middle Manager*

      My number one piece of interviewing advice is to ask open ended questions and then let the person answer.

      It sounds simple, but it’s really important: 1) If you ask questions with obvious answers, you get obvious answers; and 2) nervous interviewers will often try to fill the pauses by modifying the question, giving rambling examples or just talking from their own experience, which means you don’t get a feel for the candidate, who is just left there nodding along rather than supplying their own insights.

    2. K*

      Never ask what they WOULD do in a hypothetical situation. Instead, ask them to tell you about a time when they handled something similar in the past.

  20. Bee's Knees*

    Ugh. Ok, I have an English degree. I haven’t had a math class since high school. I took extra so I could be done. And I’m doing my second pay audit in a month. One of the people that works here hadn’t had a raise since 2016. Unacceptable. I think he should have said something to someone, instead of just letting it bottle up inside him, though. Because what happened when he snapped is he came up to my office or Boss’s, or his supervisor or manager, twice a day, every day, asking if it was fixed yet. I don’t think he realized how complicated the process is. It took me six hours. I had to figure out what he was making when, how much he was paid, how much he should have been paid, and the difference. Plus calculating overtime in all that. And I had to do it week by week, looking through his timesheets. He was not properly appreciative when I showed him my spreadsheet. Every time he asked me something, very rudely, I might add, it was all I could do not to yell “Suck it, punk!!!” but that’s not acceptable workplace behavior. And the accountant gave me a gold star on my spreadsheet, so I know it’s right. Well then he comes back, and insists it’s wrong. He was waiting for my boss this morning when he got in. Practically with his nose pressed to the window. And was it? No, cause I’m awesome. And if they’re going to make me do math, it’s going to be right.

    And now I get to do another audit, cause previous HR wasn’t worth a crap. This one’s only since July of last year though, so it’s not that bad. But if the manager tries to rush me on behalf of his people, he’s going to get to sit with me while I work it up.

    And boss says we’re not allowed to get a whack-a-mole game for the office. I think it would be very therapeutic.

      1. Bee's Knees*

        I’ve thought about it, but I’d end up smacking it against the desk, and next to my office door is a door-sized window into the hallway, so I don’t think it would work out.

      1. Bee's Knees*

        My aim is truly terrible. I probably could get a dart board, but the likelihood of me ever hitting it is slim.

      2. VLookupsAreMyLife*

        Oops, sorry, Brian! I didn’t mean to shoot your eye out with a dart 37 seconds after you sent me that SUPER sucky email… honest, I really do just have bad aim!

        More importantly, KUDOS to you for being awesome & rocking something that’s not a natural area of strength for you. I offer the highest of fives…

        1. Bee's Knees*

          Thanks! I was irritated that we had the issue in the first place, but I’m really proud of myself for coming up with a way to fix it.

          Yeah, we got some cooling towels to hand out, and I called it my Oprah moment. (You get a cooling towel, you get a cooling towel, everyone gets a cooling towel!) And a couple people suggested I throw them to people. I would completely unintentionally hit some people in the face had I done that, and it would end up being the people that don’t usually deserve it. Saying that devolved into several people talking about experiences with tshirt cannons, and it went downhill from there.

      3. I Work on a Hellmouth*

        Or one of those inflatable punching bag toys that re-rights itself? I think they make a John Cena one. His face is pretty punchable.

    3. Emily S.*

      You are awesome. Sorry you had to deal with such ridiculous bs.
      Hope you have a really fun holiday weekend, BK!

    4. T. Boone Pickens*

      How big of a pay adjustment are we talking about here? One one hand, I’m certainly sympathetic that you had to bear the brunt of this worker’s frustration even though you had nothing to do with it. On the other hand, if we’re talking about thousands if not tens of thousands of dollars I can see why this employee was certainly chapped.

      1. Bee's Knees*

        The second one that I just finished *fist pump* is a little under $500. The first one was about $5000. I’m not at all arguing that they should get paid what we owe them. I’m just saying I don’t think you should not mention for three years that you haven’t gotten a raise, and then breathe down the people’s necks that are trying to fix it for you, and weren’t here when it was going on.

  21. Weekend.Almost.Here.*

    I was wondering if anyone has tips for using up PTO when you are planning (read: hoping) to leave a job, but the issue is your employer makes you ask off 30 days in advance. I don’t have separate sick or vacation time – everything is in one bundle. The benefits at my current position are horrific (PTO is paltry as well), so I don’t want to waste a single hour of PTO since there is not much else I am getting from them. PTO can’t be cashed out, unfortunately, so if you don’t use it, you lose it. However, I am hesitant to book time off now, because what if I don’t end up getting a job offer for another 6 months or a year? Then I will have gone through most/all of my PTO and won’t be able to use time off later in the year around the holidays. My job is absolutely exhausting, and my normal strategy is to conserve my PTO so I can keep some on hand. I am hesitant to use up my PTO unless I absolutely know an offer is coming through. I worry by then however, it will be too late for me to request off due to the 30 day rule.

    The only option I can think of is providing new employers with a start date that is more than 30 days out . However, at least in my field, most employers try to onboard very quickly so they may not be open to me taking that long to come aboard. Anyone have tips for handling a situation like this?

    1. Falling Diphthong*

      I think you’re in some relative of the sunk costs fallacy. If you get a better job and haven’t used all your PTO at this one, you will still have a better job.

      This is sitting on the mountain of a crappy job, clinging to the molehill of your accrued time off. You have to let go of the molehill to get off the mountain.

      1. Troutwaxer*

        This. I’d suggest taking a pleasant vacation and enjoying yourself. Then you can go back to work/job seeking after some relaxation.

      2. Fortitude Jones*

        Yup. I did the same thing as you, WAH, and held super tight to my PTO at the job before my last one because I figured my job search would take forever and I didn’t want to use up all of my time off in the event that I needed to use them for interview days. Well, I ended up getting a new position much faster than I anticipated with two weeks of PTO still left on the books (I had already taken three weeks off earlier in the year, but was burned out by hurricane season – I was an adjuster), and I ended up losing a week when I left since my company had a policy of only paying out leave up to five days. Bleh.

        Take your PTO. You may end up getting a job much sooner than you think with no real break in between jobs, so you want to be as refreshed as possible. Also, you can use part of your time off now to look for other, better jobs.

        1. Weekend.Almost.Here.*

          I literally only have three days of PTO right now, so that I think is why I am holding on to it so tightly. I will accrue a week before the end of the year, but right now I only have the three days.

          1. ChimericalOne*

            If you only have 3 days, I would save them up & use them for interviewing. Even a week isn’t honestly that much time to lose. If you had more like a month, I’d say start taking days off here & there and use them to apply for jobs, network, etc., but with just 3-7 days, you’re better off holding onto them.

            1. Falling Diphthong*

              Or for getting sick. If you had a month accrued then I’d go for the one week vacation option, but three days is one job interview and a bout of feed poisoning.

          2. The Man, Becky Lynch*

            Three. Days. Three. Days. I have never in my life heard of such a random number!

            I see why it’s creating stress for you about leaving that behind but if you do use them, then you get sick or something comes up, it’s just not worth your stress levels at that rate either. I hope you’re free of that nonsense soon, my friend.

            1. Fortitude Jones*

              Yup, I get it now too. Three days isn’t much to work with, especially if you end up getting sick. I revise my advice and say hold on to those days, lol. You may need them.

    4. Quiet Observer*

      I would use the PTO towards interviewing to get out of there. I don’t like leaving PTO on the table either but it sounds better to get out of there than spend too much mental energy trying to strategize it. When you have a new job lined up, if you still have PTO left, I would recommend getting some ‘food poisoning’ on a Monday or a Friday.

    5. Clementine*

      I don’t think the OP can use PTO for interviewing, because OP has to ask 30 days in advance for permission.

  22. Open Office Lolz*

    HAHAHA today my boss, who has her own office with a door, came to sit with us in the middle of our open office and kept remarking how “fun” it is to be part of the team – plus she chatted at us continually for the entire two hours so all work stopped all morning while we just paid attention to her. This must truly be an extrovert things: all of us who actually have to sit out here detest the open office and dream of murdering each other to get some peace and quiet to actually concentrate on our actual jobs.

    1. Dragoning*

      Not even an extrovert thing–she has an office with a door, so visiting the open office for two hours was a vacation for her, functionally. And she could leave at any time if she wanted or needed.

    2. Detective Amy Santiago*

      It’s fun when you only have to do it for a few hours. Like how other people’s kids are fun to take places and then you can give them back.

      Tell her if she enjoys it so much, that she should give you all an hour a week to trade places and use her office for tasks that require quiet/concentration :)

    3. Rainy*

      I’m an extrovert and I hate open office schemes. I can imagine nothing more horrifying than not having a door to close when I need to.

    4. WellRed*

      I just read the transcript of a WeWork podcast about how they “decided to give up their desks.” But even in the interview, she’s admitting it’s not a popular change, the private phone booths are popular (duh!), but hey, it’s awesome!

      1. londonedit*

        Where my sister works, they moved to a new office last year and the bosses were in raptures about their newly renovated office and how much more efficient it was going to be – everyone was going to hot-desk! They intentionally bought fewer desks than there were people, because it was going to be such a fast-paced, collaborative environment! People could make use of digital networking – who needs face-to-face?? So modern!

        Do they allow people to work remotely? No.

        1. WellRed*

          It’s so fast paced and collaborative they can run between the desks, collaborating! Who needs to sit?

        3. only acting normal*

          The rationale for hot desking where I work is that some people are on leave, some are at meetings or otherwise offsite, etc so *on average* we only need 80% of the desks… guess what it’s like the first week after Xmas break? (The same reasoning applies to the car parking at our middle-of-nowhere office which isn’t served by public transport).

    6. LGC*

      I don’t know if it’s an extrovert thing so much as it is that your boss has a terrible case of Boss Brain. (That is, she has completely lost the ability to see things from her underlings’ perspective.) The president of our organization is the same way as your boss seems – he’s an extrovert, and a little oblivious to how things on the ground play out. (I mean, I like him, he’s great, and he’s had my back on things. But there’s that one thing…)

      I can imagine from her perspective, since she has her own office, she feels a little isolated. So, being able to chat for a couple of hours with everyone would be pretty cool! (Especially if she’s normally a bit more remote from you guys, figuratively speaking.) Except, since she has her own office, she doesn’t realize that all of y’all are on top of each other 40+ hours a week, every week.

      That said: you have more self-restraint than I because I would have given her SO MUCH FACE. (I give face in general, which is a bad thing at work and something I’m working on.) Hopefully, she doesn’t make it a tradition (or at least she plans it out better so she doesn’t just swan in and grace you with her demands for attention).

    7. alphabet soup*

      I’ve yet to find the ideal office setup. My previous job had an open office plan and in my current job, I have my own office. At first, I was so excited for the quiet and ability to concentrate! But after a while, it started to feel super isolating– I sit in a room, all day, alone… there are days when I don’t talk to a single person because I get so wrapped up in work, and no one stops by my office. So, I get the desire to have some variety. I think the ideal setup would give everyone a private office/cube, but still have one or two open areas where people could choose to go work on a laptop if they need to mix it up. (But totally agree that your boss talking about how “fun” the open office is makes them look woefully out of touch.)

  23. Lovecraft Beauty*

    I’m (hopefully!) expecting an offer from a institute of higher ed soon. I am not faculty, this would be for a mid-level technical administrative staff position. I’m trying to figure out what I want to negotiate — cash compensation, if they offer me less than $dollars, and relocation assistance, and a confirmation about flexible schedule/telecommuting (this is pretty normal at this place), but I’d also like to see if they’re willing to change the title of the position to reflect my field of expertise, rather than the specific technology used. Is this appropriate/normal?

    For example, the posting is for a Clay Teapots Developer, but I am a Spout Developer. They know this is my specialty, and have been enthusiastic about adding a SME to the team.

    1. Admin of Sys*

      (assuming US) If it’s a state school, higher ed usually can’t change up titles like that. Those sort of things have to go through the state allocation and job banding and many many other levels of process. Similarly, a state school is going to be locked into their hiring salary range, though they should have room within that range. However, a lot of states require the salaries to be published, so you can see exactly what other folks with your title and band are making.

      1. Lovecraft Beauty*

        Nope, private! I know the range, and my salary requirements are solidly within it.

      2. De-Archivist*

        Seconding this. I work in an administrative position at a four-year public university. The titles are predetermined as a part of our contract with the state legislature and Board of Fancypantses. Changing one would take an act of a deity. There’s a pay range, but that’s usually very dependant on your education level. Say $4X for no degree, $4Y for a bachelor’s, $4Z for a master’s, etc. You can ask to be brought in at the high side of the range because of experience or whatever your reason, but even that might be impossible.

        Anecdote, I got brought in on the high side because my university hasn’t given raises in a couple of years and no COLA for the last 2. My argument was that I’m not likely to get a raise in quite some time, so it made sense to start slightly higher knowing I might never make more. That said, my boss and I have a good relationship, so I didn’t feel this was a risk.

        Do be aware that if you’re brought in at the top of the pay scale, that position may never be able to pay more, so there may be no room for a raise. That works fine because you’ll still be making more money that you would at the bottom of the scale, but public university jobs are pretty rigid in what they offer for administrative positions … All bets are off if you’re about to be a Vice Chancellor or Assistant Provost of something or another. :D Make that state school work for you.

      3. Catwoman*

        I work at a public and I will add that it’s common practice for us to have an internal “HR title” and another title approved by your supervisor that you use on your email signature, business cards, etc…HR title never changes, but I have successfully gotten the “working” title changed to better reflect my actual job duties/external market.

    2. fposte*

      I think you can inquire, but it may not be negotiable. The bigger and more state-funded the school, the less likely title is to be negotiable.

    3. Gene Parmesan*

      I’ve worked in higher education for several years. I would certainly try to negotiate the points you mentioned, but think through what your response will be if they say no. I recently accepted an offer where I found the university’s HR department to be extremely rigid. I successfully negotiated a higher salary than the original range, and after they approved it, they made the hiring manager re-post the position for a certain amount of time, with the salary range going up to our higher number. Although I didn’t ask for it, I don’t think they would have changed the job title. This is for a public university, and they may be more inflexible than private colleges.

    4. JanetM*

      Some places may allow a “vanity” title as well as an official title. My official job title is Coordinator I and my vanity title is Project Manager.

    5. CJ*

      Hi,
      I lead a small tech group at a private university. In my experience, job titles are VERY heavily vetted before posting, so you likely won’t be able to negotiate a change there. I also doubt they’d be able to offer relocation. I’d suggest focusing on telecommuting/flexible hours. They probably also have a bit of wiggle room for you to negotiate salary.

    6. Betty*

      For faculty roles (the only side of higher ed I’ve worked in), it’s pretty common to be able to get “professional development funds” that can be used for professional travel/memberships, extra tech (e.g., getting a tablet in addition to the standard desktop machine), books, etc.. If they can’t budge on salary they might be able to set something like that up?

  24. second chance at an interview I bombed*

    I work in government and two years ago I applied for a higher position than the one I currently have. There are two rounds that determine an eligibility list for hiring, a written test and an oral exam, which is an interview panel. Last time I did well on the written portion but bombed the interview portion so badly that I didn’t make the list.

    I applied again and did very, very well on the written test, and I have a lunch date next week with someone who holds the role I’m applying for. There were some situational questions last time that were *extremely* specific, unusual scenarios and I really struggled with those. I’m wondering if it’s gauche or like, cheating, to straight up ask the person I’m meeting with what he would answer. My work culture values information sharing and mentoring but I’m wondering if I should be more general. The questions were more about protocol when things go sideways and I’m wondering if I should focus on that rather than the situations, specifically.

    Anyone out there with experience in government panels who could help me out?

    1. Dasein9*

      I do not have experience with government panels, but do have experience with comprehensive exams in an academic setting. It’s common practice to permit test-takers to use previous years’ test questions in order to study for their own exams. The questions would not be exactly the same, but would give an idea of how much detail was expected, trends in how the questions were asked, etc. This is really valuable for studying. You can ask whether old tests are provided for people to prep with.

      If you were to say “Obviously, you can’t give me answers to current test questions, but can we talk about your experience taking the test? It would be a big help to hear about the types of questions you encountered and your logic in answering them,” then you should be just fine.

      1. second chance at an interview I bombed*

        Thank you so much for this response — super helpful and I’ll definitely ask about what he encountered, too. I really want to nail this and think I’ll be able to prepare accordingly having done this before and knowing what to expect.

        2. DerJungerLudendorff*

          I imagine that they want you to have a similar level of information as you would have on the actual job.
          It’s not actually in their interest to keep a lot of information about the questions a secret, because it wouldn’t give accurate information on how well you would do the job. As long as you can’t just copy the answers directly, I imagine you should be fine asking deeper questions about the style, complexity and so on :)

    2. Kittymommy*

      Check to see if the panel scorecard/notes from your last interview are public record. If so, request them from whomever holds them (likely hr) to see if any comments might help. Also see if you can get the other interviews as well. Where I’m at, also government, this is very common to do, especially with internet applicants. HR doesn’t even have an eye, which I know since I used to work in hr.

      1. second chance at an interview I bombed*

        That’s a great idea. I know the materials are owned by a third party (HR contracts out a service that creates the materials and runs metrics to rank candidates against one another, kinda like a bell curve, but more granular) so I’m not sure if I’d be able to review them, but I will absolutely contact my HR rep and see if there’s any way I can review my file. My interview score was very high for the position I am holding now (39 out of 40), and I bet at the very least they’d let me see the feedback for the panel when I was successful. Thanks so much and have a great Memorial Day weekend!

    3. Reba*

      I feel like I would be taken aback by someone asking me how to answer test questions. It does smack of cheating to me–but you know your field/workplace better than I do of course. Then again so much of gov hiring is BS that working through the system is something everyone develops tricks around, so they might be happy to share what worked for them.

      I’d prefer an opening like, “last time around I really struggled with the situational questions in the interview. Do you have any thoughts on those?”

      That opens it up to the person without asking for answers as such. They might be comfortable going into more detail from there, they might not.

      1. second chance at an interview I bombed*

        For sure going to feel it out and get a vibe from my colleague on how much information he’s willing to divulge/what is appropriate to ask.

        I am new to government so I’m still figuring it out! This meeting was suggested to me by my old union rep (who has since been promoted to management). She has been very supportive of me since joining my agency and she recommended my colleague to help me role play and otherwise prepare for this interview. I get the feeling this is all above-board but it feels kind of weird and unfair to me? So yeah, I agree that it kind of seems like cheating to me, too. But like I said, this all seems totally by the book so who knows? I just want to do well on the interview based on my own merit and preparation, not because someone fed me answers or told me what to say.

    4. Policy Wonk*

      In my experience such questions are more to see how you respond/think on your feet, than to elicit a specific answer. There really is no right answer, though there might be a right approach to finding an answer. I went through similar testing twice myself. The scenario questions were completely different the second time, so I expect you will get different questions than your colleague did, as well as different from your last experience. But it doesn’t hurt to ask what questions he was asked and how he approached them.

      I caution that every agency is different, so my experience may not be relevant.
      Good luck on your orals.

      1. second chance at an interview I bombed*

        Thanks for your insight and the well wishes, I really appreciate it. I get the impression that they’re not necessarily looking for a right answer, but more how you handle a problem that’s new to you/you’re not entirely sure how to solve. That’s why I think I’ll approach the situation more broadly with my colleague. Thanks again, this was so helpful!

    5. CoffeeOnMyMind*

      I’ve worked in government and have been both the interviewer and the interviewee. My experience has always been with a 3 person panel, where they hand you a list of questions they will ask. Then each person on the panel takes turns asking you a question, and then they all write your response.

      I’m not sure if the department you’re interviewing with has a different approach, but I see no harm in asking your contact what their experience was like. Good luck!

      1. second chance at an interview I bombed*

        Yup! The process is exactly as you described, albeit a slightly larger panel (if I recall correctly it was 4 or 5). Thanks for your support!

        1. TT&E*

          My experience is that government panels are often looking for well organized and solid examples of performing a task, or similar task when you answer. Also, assume the interviewers have NOT read your resume (or if they have, remember more than some basics). Super common for govt panels to have 10 minutes between candidates – that’s so little time to score the previous, run to the bathroom, etc.

          When I prep I look at the things listed in the job description and answer how I have, or have related experience. I try to pull from a different jobs/projects.

          For example – job description includes ‘teapot inventory and ordering’ and ‘coffee cup purchasing’

          Question – What is your experience with coffee cup purchasing and what software did you use?

          Answer. I have not specifically purchased coffee cups, but I know they are similar in nature to tea cups and generally come from the same manufacturers. At old job I purchased 30 % of the annual teapots. In April I would begin the annual inventory of teapot needs for my department, create a projection for the next year by getting non-binding quotes from vendors, then make sure the teacups budget was included in annual gov budget for next fiscal year in May/June. As soon as we were funded in July I’d start ordering teacups. To track this we used the HotPots System, however, I am also familiar with PotsTepid.

          That was way longer than I meant it to be.

          1. TT&E*

            Also the timing seems weird because my state, and most local government use a July – June fiscal year.

            1. second chance at an interview I bombed*

              Thanks for this! Our fiscal year is also July-June. :)

  25. instant coffee*

    At my work people don’t say good morning when they walk in and don’t say goodbye when they leave. Despite that everyone works well and there’s no office drama. I just wanted to know if a no good morning/goodbye practice would bother anyone.

    1. Murphy*

      I would 100% love that (assuming I don’t need to know if certain people are leaving)

    2. Unknown*

      I’m not a morning person and I’m shy, so I don’t go out of my way to say “good morning” or “goodbye” to strangers at all, but I will say it to coworkers or people I like if the situation makes it easy to because it feels friendly to do it. So situations like if I go to ask them a question first thing in the morning, if I’m waiting in line for coffee with them, if I sit across from them, if I’m holding a door open for them, if they ask me a question and I’m leaving after I answer, etc. I don’t make an effort to talk to people if they’re just passing my desk or if I’m passing their desk, and I don’t go to peoples’ desks to specifically say anything. I don’t want to needlessly interrupt them and interrupt my own work.

      So, no, it wouldn’t bother me not to say it. I’m not opposed to saying it to some people in some situations though.

    3. JR*

      That’s how it is in my office. I enjoy it because I can save my “dealing with people” energy for work interactions.

    7. An Amazing Detective-Slash-Genius*

      Ugh yes I would be bothered by this. My office is highly collaborative so if someone came up to my desk in the morning and launched into work without a “hello” I would be annoyed.

      Luckily we do always greet each other in the mornings! We’re a small office, basically one hallway of offices and desks. The door is on one end and kitchen on the other end, so with the walking we pretty much see everybody within the first hour and that’s when greetings occur.

    9. Rainy*

      Nope. This would not bother me in the slightest. In fact, I often sneak in the back way to avoid the difficult to avoid greeting from reception.

    10. Avocado Toast*

      Definitely depends on how the office is set up. At my last job, we were in a semi-open office with some cubicles and some desks, and there were fewer than ten employees, so it was weird to walk in and not say anything (at least to the people you sat next to or had to pass to get to your desk)

      At my current job, the office admin has a desk at the front door and everyone else has their own office. I say good morning/goodbye to her if she’s at her desk. Other than that, I only say a specific greeting/goodbye to people if they are between the door/my desk.

      1. De-Archivist*

        That’s what I was thinking. If we were all in a big space, a general, “Good morning, all!” addressed to the group would be enough. In my office, I would have to walk down a couple of different hallways to drop by their offices to say hello, which would be a little strange in our office, if I didn’t need anything. I do greet our office secretary because I pass by her to my office, but I don’t make it a point to seek my coworkers out to say hello.

    11. a*

      We had to have a long discussion about this because I don’t want to talk to anyone in the mornings and my coworker feels rude not to greet people. Buuuut, he didn’t want to “bother me” by saying good morning. Finally, I was all “It doesn’t bother me if you do or do not say good morning – if you say it, I’ll respond. But I certainly will not initiate it, so don’t be offended. It’s not personal.” Good night or have a good weekend or whatever is pretty optional. Since I sit in the farthest cubicle away from everyone in a mostly empty (but large – future planning!) office, it’s easy for everyone to forget I’m here. :)

    12. Fortitude Jones*

      Nope – I totally was that person for the most part at all previous jobs. I work from home now, so the only person I have to talk to is my reflection in the mirror, lol.

    13. Lime Lehmer*

      It is the practice in my current office not to say good morning or goodbye. It used to bother me, but this is the nicest calmest group of people I have ever worked with, so I chalk it up to office culture and open floor plan.

    14. Nous allons, vous allez, ils vont*

      I would be bothered by this and I’m suuuuper introverted.
      It just seems weird and unfriendly to mandate a “no good morning/ goodbye” rule in an office. Does it really take that much out of people to utter a total of three words in a day? Again, I appreciate how draining small talk can be, but “good morning” takes almost zero effort.

    15. CoffeeOnMyMind*

      In my office it just depends on the person; some people say hello/goodbye while others don’t. I always say hello or goodbye to people, but it doesn’t bother me when others don’t. It’s just a personal preference.

    16. coffee cup*

      I think it’s a bit rude if it’s someone you sit near or next to, because it takes 2 seconds to do it and it’s just pleasant. I wouldn’t expect someone on the other side of the office to do it, but in my pod of four it would bother me if no one bothered to say hi and bye (but then inevitably wanted my help with something half an hour later). I’m an introvert and I am happy not to chat for long periods but to me this isn’t that. It’s just a quick courtesy.

      To be clear, I’d never make a big of it, but I’d still find it a bit rude.

      1. The Other Dawn*

        Same here. I make a point of saying good morning/good night to my team members–I’m the department head so I think it would be rude to not acknowledge them. I also say it to people I happen to pass on my way in or out. I think it’s just common courtesy. I don’t go seeking other people out, though, just for the sake of saying hello or goodbye.

    17. Not All*

      The person in my current office who Must Say It To Everyone Every Day drives most of the rest of us absolutely insane. The “good morning” “good morning” “good morning” as person after person trickles in/out each day is so freaking irritating. Because he makes such a point of it, most of us actually have shifted from “he’s just friendly” to “it’s a total passive-aggressive power play” over the years…though unsurprisingly there are other places where he clearly demonstrates that he cares much more about the appearance of We’re All Family than actually getting along & respecting each other. We will start talking to each other as we get settled in and start working. We all get along, we will greet each other nicely as we interact during the day.

    18. Purple Jello*

      Most of the time, I either smile, nod or wave. Occasionally I’ll say hello, good morning or hey. As long as. We acknowledge each other, I’m good.

    19. Alanna of Trebond*

      My office is the same — we’re an open plan office with about 25 people who come and go at different times (we’re very flexible on remote work), and it would be very odd and disruptive if everyone called out “good morning” or “goodbye” when they left. I’ll sometimes say good morning/goodbye to seatmates if I’m the first one in (and see them arrive) or the first to leave, but it’s definitely not expected.

      When a new manager started a few years ago who was a good morning/goodbye person it made me almost feel like I was being called out for what time I got in/left! It took a week or so for me to remember that in some offices it’s normal.

    20. Lilysparrow*

      Depends on the layout. If someone walked or sat in close proximity and direct eyeline to me without speaking, I would find that strange and a little disconcerting.

      If the workspaces are arranged so that isn’t happening, not strange.

    21. Cog in the Machine*

      It would only bother me in the sense that I like to know who else is in the office since I’m in the very back and can’t always hear the front door open.
      In old office, people tended to get pretty grumpy if no one said good morning or goodbye.

    22. Even Steven*

      We have a general no-greetings vibe like that at my office, and no one seems weirded out by it. We might say toodle-loo at the end of a Friday before a long weekend (as we did, a bit, for some, today) but overall, it’s the just the way the team is – we’re near silent bean counters. Easy going, no drama, but very quiet. I love it! Now, the livelier departments (like sales and HR) sound like they are regular greeters and toodle-looers, so maybe it varies by environment? I just know that it works for me, and works for everyone in my department.

    23. The Rat Catcher*

      I work in an office with about 40 other people, and I’m in child welfare which is a field that is high on social expectations. Even we only have one or two people who greet everyone they pass in the morning or when they leave, unless they are leaving at an unusual time in which case they might explain that (but even that isn’t really expected unless, as others have said, people might come looking for you.

    24. iglwif*

      I think it would depend on the setup? If saying good morning to people when you walk in means a vague wave and a general “morning” to a whole group in an open space, that’s one thing, and I think it would feel a bit weird if no one did it, since everyone can clearly see you arriving and leaving.

      If on the other hand saying good morning to people when you walk in means sticking your head in at a dozen office doors or around a dozen cubicle walls, then IMO doing it is way weirder than not doing it (not to mention super disruptive).

  26. Unknown*

    I’ve typically bought my own office supplies for work to make my job easier or my workspace more comfortable since my employers only provided things like cheap pens, paper pads and a basic computer set up (tower, monitor, and standard keyboard and mouse). Unfortunately, my office supplies have been stolen before, and one job didn’t send them to me after laying me off even though I asked for them, so I’m thinking I should only buy things I can easily take home every night (like nice pens, post-its and a notebook).

    I’ve heard that nicer companies will let new employees order some office supplies, so if that’s the case in my new job, I was wondering what and how much is appropriate to ask for? I’m not sure what I’ll need yet, but things that I would like at pretty much any job are a foot stool, wrist rest, trackball mouse (the $25 Logitech one), and a binder with dividers. I feel kind of weird about asking for office supplies since I’ve never had that option before, but it would be nice if they did provide some!

    1. Llama Wrangler*

      I think all of those things are within the range of reason, especially since they promote proper ergonomics (except for the binder, of course, but that falls in the range of normal office supplies that most jobs would order). At my job, I just spoke to the person who handles ordering and said “I need these things in order to be able to sit comfortably at my desk and do my work; what’s the procedure on getting them.” For us, it turns out anything above $100 needs special approval but otherwise its fair game.

      1. Auntie Social*

        I’d add a box of your favorite pens–gel, trac ball, fine point Flair, etc. Everyone has one they love.

    2. Rainy*

      Check with your new manager. My office has an official policy around start-up costs (new employees get much much more money for supplies in their first year of employment with the reasoning that for the first year you’re still figuring out what you need) and then an official policy around how much money in personalized office supplies we get per FY. This doesn’t count computers, furniture, and common office supplies like paper goods, the pens that are usually stocked, etc, which come out of the common pool.

    3. Susan K*

      A binder with dividers is definitely a reasonable request almost anywhere. The other stuff… maybe, maybe not — depends on the company. I would suggest looking around at your coworkers’ desks to see if they all have basic supplies or if any of them have a foot stool, wrist rest, or special mouse (or other non-standard office supplies). If they do, you can ask where they got it, and if you’re lucky, they’ll say, “Fergus ordered it for me. He orders all the office supplies and he’ll get you whatever you need.” If everyone just has the basics, you might get some side-eye for making special requests, so I would find out who orders office supplies and start with the mouse (since everyone needs a mouse and you just want a different type of mouse) before you ask for the foot stool and wrist rest.

    4. CynicallySweet*

      All of these make sense to me. My Co supplies office equip we need. We have a closet with extra stuff should we ever run out. If ur office has a closet of some type I’d suggest checking what they have/provide and then trying it out before asking for stuff to be ordered (tho honestly nothing ur describing here sounds like it would be crazy out of bounds to order)

    5. OxfordComma*

      Everything you mentioned would be in the realm of possibility for you if you worked here (academic library). I would just ask what the policy is in your new office. Definitely, the binder with dividers should be a go.

  27. Sunday Morning Fever*

    I should just call my direct reports, Double Trouble. I supervise two associates, one junior, one senior.

    The senior one gets defensive and territorial.
    The junior one doesn’t like to admit they don’t know something and talks A LOT about everything.

    There are some days where these quirks in their personalities are “enhanced”. Those are the days that I regret accepting my promotion and long for the glory days of being an individual contributor. Honestly, I will take less money to deal with less BS.

    1. WellRed*

      As their manager, you have standing to discuss these issues with them, the impact it could have on their success.

      1. Sunday Morning Fever*

        I’m aware, it’s just not an aspect of my job that I enjoy and to be honest, I’m surprised that some of it exists, because the level of quirk is sometimes simply unprofessional.

        1. ChimericalOne*

          Yeah, it’s definitely not the most pleasant thing! But it could greatly improve your life (and theirs, too) to handle this.

      2. ChimericalOne*

        I second this. Talk to each associate about the pattern you’ve noticed after the next incident and the response you’re looking for from them. You have the power to either shape them into better employees or show them that this job isn’t going to be a good fit for them.

        1. WKRP*

          My coworker goes by a nickname, think Dany in lieu of Danaerys. Dany calls everyone by their full name. Dany calls everyone by their full name even after she hears others call a person by their nickname. She’ll continue to call Betsy, Elizabeth — even after I’ve called her Betsy, emailed her (with Dany cc’ed) as Betsy, and never every use the name Elizabeth.

          It’s super odd. Because Dany goes by Dany professionally, but her email is Danaerys, so I find it extremely odd that she wouldn’t take the cue. I had one person ask me why she persisted in using their formal name and I had to mention to Dany that no one uses that name and she should call her by her nickname.

          Dany is not always the sharpest tool in the box, decent enough at some things. But I find this behavior really odd.

          1. DerJungerLudendorff*

            I would be so tempted to get petty and use her full name and title in ever single interaction.
            “Daenarys Targaryan-Stormborn, Queen of the Andals, the Rhoynar, and the First Men, Protector of the Seven Kingdoms, Khaleesi of the Great Grass Sea, Lady of Dragonstone, Breaker of Chains, Mother of Dragons, The Unburnt, Queen of Meereen, could you hand me the TPS reports?”

  28. Gene Parmesan*

    I recently accepted a new job that I’m really happy about. I’ve given my notice at my current employer, and am working on writing documentation for my replacement. It’s a lot of responsibility, and there are technical details that I need to convey.
    Unfortunately, it sounds like they’re not going to hire a replacement for my position due to financial constraints (worries about finances/long-term sustainability of the organization are one of the reasons I’m leaving). I feel pretty good about the person who will be absorbing my duties, but I know she can’t do everything and the least-urgent tasks are not going to get done. But, it’s out of my hands. I’m going to do my best to train her and then the organization will just have to deal with things themselves.

    1. VLookupsAreMyLife*

      That sounds tough, but you have a good attitude about it. Congrats on the new opportunity!

    2. The Man, Becky Lynch*

      Your last part is critical and I’m so glad you’re telling yourself that. You’re doing everything you can to ensure the person taking over/absorbing the duties is as prepared as possible. That’s awesome and exactly the right thing to do!

      I’ve been there. Oh woah, really I could have written this a few years. However I was too emotionally invested and didn’t let it roll off my back as easy and it took me a bit of a personal “breakdown” to really have my partner tell me point blank “It’s not your problem anymore. You are leaving for this reason, remember?”

      Congrats on your new job, it’s going to be such a great adventure!

    3. ContemporaryIssued*

      Sad to say my organisation has done this several times. One awesome co-worker, Margot, left in February and she handed off about a third of her duties to a recent-ish employee Janet (two months into her job) and then some of her tasks she gave to me; some she told her boss she couldn’t find anybody to do. Her boss said not to worry, they’d figure something out. (Narrator from Arrested Development: They didn’t figure anything out.)

      Unfortunately Janet’s boss Greg decided to usurp the tasks Margot had given me, and lay them all on Janet. (I didn’t fight it because I have enough on my plate and Greg is a manager while I’m a secretary.) Janet worked late nights and, dropped the ball on a couple of things, so she was let go. Now a new assistant to Greg, Julia, is trying to stay on top of learning everything so she’s coming to me for advice, which I don’t know about because while I was given guidance by Margot, I didn’t actually do the tasks so I don’t know what Greg or Janet did.

      Enjoy your new job and don’t worry about leaving a mess. The organisation should figure it out themselves.

  29. Lady Jay*

    Earplug advice needed!

    I’ll be headed to a conference on the East Coast later this summer. We’re staying in a beautiful historic hotel that’s actually a reasonable price–but I just found out there’s a bar down the street, and the hotel can sometimes be a bit noisy. The problem? I can’t reliably get earplugs to fit in my ears. I’ve practiced, I’ve had other people help, it’s just really a no-go.

    What recommendations besides foam earplugs do you have for shutting out the noise and actually getting some sleep? I’m ideally looking for solutions that don’t involve dropping $200 on noise cancelling headphones.

    1. KatieKate*

      Wax earplugs!! They’re in the same section of a drug store, sometimes labeled “swimmer’s earplugs.” They fit over the opening of the ear rather than inside and work even better for blocking out sound. I too have trouble with foam earplugs not fitting in my ear so I’d recommend giving these a shot!

      1. Commenter*

        THIS!! :)

        Example: https://www.amazon.com/dp/B003LZQGN6/

        I had to start wearing earplugs to sleep next to my snoring partner, and had so much trouble with foam earplugs I ended up giving myself a massive double ear infection. I saw these at the drugstore while filling my antibiotic prescription and have been hooked ever since! :)

      2. LPUK*

        Another vote for wax earplugs. Not only are they mouldable but after having them in for 30 minutes or more, they soften even further so you can push them further in and really block out the sound. Don’t worry, you can get them out just as easily the next day!

    2. Bee's Knees*

      Have you checked for the small size of earplugs? If I could attach a photo I would. I have little ears, and there’s only one kind here at work that I can use. I made the guy who restocks them give me like 20 pairs. They’re the 3m push in’s, if that’s helpful to you at all.

      1. Anonysand*

        This x 10000000. I have extremely small ears, apparently, and regular earplugs actually bruise my ear canals and I’m in pain for days after trying to wear them. Finding smaller earplugs (and also testing out the different shapes) did a world of difference. The was earplugs as well are a good solution if you still can’t find anything. Also- have you considered a white noise machine or a fan? Those won’t eliminate all the noise but it can help. I’m an extremely light sleeper and won’t travel without those or my sleep mask.

        1. Llama Wrangler*

          I never thought I had small ear canals but my ears definitely hurt if I wear ear plugs for more than one night in a row. Is that not normal?

          1. Anonysand*

            Nope! That means you’ve got the wrong size or shape of earplugs. I found ONE type I can consistently wear without pain and they’re smaller sized and thinner, with flared ends like a bell. Typically they’re bright green, but it can vary on the brand. Those pink ones that are fish-shaped and marketed towards women? I will be in excruciating pain for days afterward.

    3. Alleycat*

      Download a white noise/fan/nature sounds app on your phone. I have one for when I’m traveling and it’s a life saver!

      1. Quiet Observer*

        This! I have a free app on my phone called Relaxio. You can choose different white noises, nature noises, even car noises.You can also set a timer so if you just need it for a period until you fall asleep it will turn itself off.

        1. Zephy*

          +1 for Relaxio – I just commented about it below. It’s free, there is a paid version but all it does is remove the banner ad at the bottom. I never had a talking ad come up when I had the free version, as I’ve seen in the reviews of other white noise apps.

      1. Parenthetically*

        Someone here ages ago recommended the Lectrofan Micro and it has honestly been one of my all-time favorite purchases as far as working exactly as advertised and being excellent value for money. It’s the size of a jar of eye cream, lasts ages on a charge (and forever if plugged in), and has an incredible range of sounds and volumes. Plus it works as a bluetooth speaker. Such an awesome little product.

        1. Competent Commenter*

          I absolutely love mine. Good recommendation! We always take it when we travel and use it every night at home.

    5. Teapot Compliance*

      I find the triflange ear plugs a lot easier to insert, but if you’re a side sleeper, you’ll have to check and see if the little handle is an issue.

      I’d also recommend watching a couple videos on ear plug insertion, because I have a similar issue with small ear canals and figuring out the shape of mine. I kind of have to pull on my ear in a big way to straighten the canal.

    7. Zephy*

      I use a white noise app on my phone. The one I have is called Relaxio. There’s a free version and it has 16 options – weather, nature, traffic, static, etc. I use the electric fan sound. You can pick one sound or make a custom mix, and adjust volume levels for individual sounds and global volume level.

    8. L.S. Cooper*

      I blast a white noise app on my phone that’s rain noises with faint music. For me, the issue isn’t noise, but noise that my brain is trying to process– music and talking, as well as irregular sounds (like snoring) get my brain’s attention and make it hard to get to sleep. The white noise sort of evens it all out and “absorbs” the ambient sounds. Now, if the outside sounds are too loud, they break through, but it’s normally enough. (The only times I’ve had issues have been: roommates watching a loud movie directly below me, people across the street having a party out on their lawn complete with blasting music, mom with severe sleep apnea snoring in the same room.)

    11. CynicallySweet*

      I also can’t fit any ear plugs and make them stay in! I’ve found ear muffs (like you’d wear in the winter) work pretty ok n you can get some fer pretty cheap!

    12. Joie De Vivre*

      My husband travels a lot for work. Based on recommendations from posters on this site, I got him a LectroFan micro white noise machine. It has really helped.

      You can get them on Amazon.

      Hope you find something that works for you.

    13. Admin of Sys*

      I hate wearing earplugs of any type. I’ve found that white noise apps work well, but also in really loud environments, wearing winter ear wraps can help if you can handle the extra warmth. The kind that look like knit headbands, but are designed to go over your ears. The thicker ones do a great job of muffling sound but aren’t uncomfortable to sleep in.

    14. Fergus, the one from GoT*

      I had a decent pair of ear buds that stopped working and I cut the wires so they’re essentially ear plugs but far more comfortable.

    15. Competent Commenter*

      To go in a completely different direction, I listen to a sleep podcast to help me go to sleep at night, and I bought cheap headband earphones to wear when I sleep so I can listen to it. You could use those with white noise or music or a podcast. The little circular speakers in the headband are pretty flat, I’d say they’re about a third of an inch thick and about 1.5 inches across. Granted, I often find the headband around my neck (not scary like it sounds, it’s stretchy, soft, not tight) or beside me on the pillow when I wake up. My husband snores loudly, and we use a white noise machine (the Lectrofan Micro recommended below), but honestly it’s not always enough because he’s just as close to me as the white noise. I listen to my sleep podcast and the person’s voice plus the white noise cover up all but a tiny bit of the snoring. Occasionally I’ll wake up in the middle of the night because the headband fell off and the snoring woke me up, and I’ll put it back on and load up another podcast, but mostly once I’m asleep the snoring doesn’t bother me.

      I originally bought a headband with a plug-in cord, and that was ok—quite a long cord and a good test of the tech. I then bought a bluetooth version. I think I spent about $20 on the first and no more than $40 on the bluetooth. I wish I could remember my brand, but there are a ton on Amazon. I wore my headband to run a 5k recently and it was great for that too.

      And if anyone’s interested, the podcast I use is Sleep with Me. I love it. My mind tends to race as soon as I get in bed and this has been so helpful. My 11-year-old son loves it too.

    16. Jarissa*

      https://smile.amazon.com/dp/B07F59HQRC/ref=cm_sw_r_cp_awdb_t1_k1n6CbB700RH9 should be a link to the Bluetooth sleep headphones that I use for my tinnitus. Nothing goes inside the ear canal except sound. Next to me, my husband hears nothing at all. Download to phone a white noise app or one of those 8 hour sound effect videos from YouTube, turn on airplane mode and reactivate Bluetooth connection, hit “play” and crash. I sleep in various positions, no trouble or discomfort. I can disassemble this thing every other week and wash the not-electronics bit with baby shampoo during my morning shower. Heartily recommend.

  30. Rowdy Rutabagas*

    Clash of the Directors – part drei (and its getting serious)

    S1, E3: “New staff pushing out competent established staff.”

    Our new DD, who has no fundraising experience, seems to have it out for established competent staff.

    Does the new development director (DD) have it out for the events manager? according to the events manager (EM) she had to sit through an impromptu two hour feedback session (during which the DD had notes but the EM was not able to prepare). The DD said our recent annual golf tournament was a complete fail other than the golfers had a good time. As a new employee to the event, I can’t concur. It was well organized even though the ED and DD threw in a lot of last-minute changes despite neither having participated or seen this golf event in action; this is the second time this EM has produced this event.

    When the EM explained that there was no need for the DD to be involved in the details, except to learn about how the EM does her job, the EM would greatly appreciate that the DD focus on her fundraising responsibilities. Except the DD mentions she wasn’t exactly hired to exclusively focus on fundraising bit to also assume business operations, per convos with the ED. We have a brand new ED and DD, and given how long both positions were essentially vacant, it’s going to take us a good year or so to start making financial in roads. They need not bother themselves with the details of other people’s jobs.

    This comes on the 4-week approach to the EMs maternity leave and she’ll be gone for 12-weeks (which the EM changed from 6-weeks when the DD sent an email – on the EMs day off- requesting her to create a 12-week schedule of tasks so the DD and I will be taken care of.

    IMHO that email should have been from the perspective that we want to make sure these responsibilities are taken care of so the EM doesn’t worry while she’s gone. Instead the DD wrote it from the ‘I expect to be taken care of and that’s your responsibility.’

    And yet, for some reason the DD doesn’t treat me like this. Why? Although she’s still trying to get me to tell her when people are dissatisfied. “So that thing that we talked about last week have you heard anything from anyone? Is anybody let you know they’re not happy?” To which I reply, ‘Nope’ and she says, “Ok I’m just trying to be cognizant of what’s going on.” No- you want me to tattle on people. Be aware, yourself.

    Whose next on the DDs hit list? As the world turns!!

    2. DerJungerLudendorff*

      Excuse me while I break out the popcorn, complain about overused petty villain cliches and anticipate the climactic scene where our plucky EM shows up the evil villains in front of the company and the board of directors and receives a standing applause while the villains are fired on the spot and promise vengeance as they are carried off by local security.

      1. Rowdy Rutabagas*

        Not sure how to read your post, but there’s a 90% likelihood that the EM will not return from maternity leave. and there’s a 90% likelihood that the DD will continue to badger the EM during maternity leave.

        And as the most recent hire before the ED and DD arrived, without deep roots and particularly developed passion for the organization partnered with two decades of nonprofit work my empathy is with the EM; I’ve never seen a DD do this.

  31. Incoming Intern*

    Hello! I’m beginning a summer internship in a week, and this is my first proper work experience (I’ve only held very casual part time jobs before this), so I’m really nervous! I’m also on the autism spectrum, so do people have any advice for specific social dynamics I’ll really need to make sure I won’t miss and/or general advice and things they wish they’d known? Thank you!

    1. Sloan Kittering*

      I’d say just try to hang back and observe as much as possible. You are there to learn, so nobody is suggesting you to be super pro active right away and jump in with suggestions etc. If you find your supervisor trustworthy it might be helpful to disclose what you would need from their to succeed (“I don’t always pick up hints so I would be super grateful if you could be explicit about anything I need to do differently” maybe?).

    2. revueller*

      If someone gives you verbal instructions, repeat what you understood back to them to double-check what they want from you. Asking questions shows diligence, but there’s a point where asking too many “why” questions will sound like you’re questioning the person and their authority. It’s a stupid reason for them to get upset, not everyone will be like that, but it is something to watch out for.
      I’m still very bad at this, but if you have an office where people eat lunch together (instead of at their desks), try to eat with them for at least part of your lunch break. You can step out and fake a phone call if you need to go sit by yourself and decompress.
      Best of luck, friend!

      1. Incoming Intern*

        Thank you, this is all very useful! My tendency tends to be more that I have to ask a lot of clarifying questions because I’m overly literal, so I’m just praying that won’t crop up too badly

        1. londonedit*

          It’s perfectly OK for you to tell people that when you start. Just frame it as ‘Oh, something you should know about me is that I tend to ask quite a few questions. It’s important to me that I make sure I understand the information I’m being given. Just so you know! Let me know if it gets too much’.

          Or, you could ask whether they’d prefer you to ask questions as they go along, or whether they’d prefer you to wait and ask questions at the end. It’s also perfectly OK to take notes – again, you might want to give people a heads-up (just so they don’t think you’re not paying attention) and you want to make sure you’re not spending so much time note-taking that you actually miss out on what’s being said, but it’s totally fine to jot down some reminders or questions when someone’s giving you information on a task.

          1. Sloan Kittering*

            Honestly since you sound very self aware about this, I’d just try to keep a limit on it! Wait till people finish the entire explanation and then you can ask your top one or maybe two questions, or plan to write down all your questions and come back later after you’ve digested them.

          2. Cog in the Machine*

            If it isn’t too much info to share, you might also tell your supervisor that you are overly literal. I’ve found that helps when you’re asking a lot of follow-up questions.

    3. AnonyMoosewithTea*

      Have you had coaching on making eye contact? If your boss or someone else is explaining something to you and talking for a while, it’s normal to make eye contact. Staring out the window behind them is considered rude. Normally what folks do is quickly make eye contact, look away for a bit, and look back again. I don’t know what the actual coaching techniques are for someone on the autism spectrum but just something to be aware of. If you’re comfortable disclosing your diagnoses, you can let them know that just because you’re not making eye contact doesn’t mean you’re not listening. (And then follow the advice above me on repeating their directions–that will confirm that you ARE listening!)

      1. Incoming Intern*

        I was actually told in middle school that I was pretty good at making eye contact by the speech pathologist, so hopefully, that won’t be an issue!

        1. AnonyMoosewithTea*

          That’s great! From your comments here, you seem like a thoughtful, conscientious worker. Best of luck in your internship!

    5. L.S. Cooper*

      My experience with office conversations is that they’re all weird and superficial. You know the conversations background actors have on TV shows while setting a scene? That’s… basically all the conversations at the office. For example, two exchanges I’ve had today:
      [Coworker comes over to the microwave as I’m getting my breakfast burrito out of it with a burrito of her own]
      CW: Ooh, it’s breakfast burrito time!
      Me: Haha, yep!
      [I exit stage right.]

      [I end up walking alongside a coworker I don’t really know for a little bit]
      CW: Got any fun plans this weekend?
      Me: Nah, just hanging out. Uh.. you? [Pause added for accurate awkwardness]
      CW: No, not really… No plans, actually, which is kind of nice. I’m gonna sleep in tomorrow!
      Me: Well, that’s a plan in… and of itself. [Pause here was while I remembered how the phrase went.]
      [We part ways.]

      Painfully awkward and shallow? Yes. But I read somewhere– maybe on here?– that the purpose of conversations at the office doesn’t have to be to make best buddies. The purpose is to remind your coworkers that you’re a pleasant person that they like.

      Observe how your office does it, but at mine, all the stereotypical conversation topics (kids, weekend plans, what you’re eating, weather) are fairly safe for office chitchat. It kind of sucks because I end up seeming very reserved here because nobody in my department shares my interests, but I’ve managed to make myself likeable, I think.

      1. Alianora*

        Those conversations are fine for office small talk, but tbh it does sound like you’re shutting them down pretty quickly. Might be why you’re finding all these conversations weird and superficial. Getting a conversation going is the hardest part.

        Just saying “haha yep” and leaving says to me “I don’t want to talk.” Same with “any weekend plans?” “Nope.” There’s nothing for the other person to grab onto as a conversation starter. Even talking about sleeping in is *something* but if I don’t see you making an effort, then I’m going to assume you’re not interested in getting to know me. Which is fine, to be clear, I wouldn’t get upset or anything.

        (I’m being this specific mostly because of Incoming Intern’s question about social dynamics.)

        1. only acting normal*

          Hmmm. L.S.Cooper didn’t really shut CW down any more than the CW shut L.S. down. L.S. asked in return about the CW’s plans and CW gave them “sleeping in” to work with? That’s hardly a conversation with momentum.

          1. Alianora*

            Yes, it’s absolutely possible that the coworker in that case didn’t really want to go beyond weird and superficial either. But the way the conversation was described as “nothing,” awkward pause, then “you?” really comes off as someone who is not interested in talking, but is asking to be polite.

    6. VLookupsAreMyLife*

      Take some time to observe “how things are done” in your office (not all offices have the same “rules”):

      – Do people say “hello/good-bye” to one another when /leaving for the day?
      – Do people lunch or take coffee breaks together?
      – What communication methods do people prefer (email/Skype/Slack/phone calls/in-person drop-bys)?
      – Do people generally interact informally (first names, joking, casual non-work related conversations), or more formally?
      **Special note: just because a senior level employee uses swear words does NOT mean it’s okay for you to do so. If in doubt, keep things more formal/professional.

      General Suggestions for Training/Receiving Instruction

      – Limit yourself to 2-3 follow up questions, and try to reserve them for the end of the session/instruction. Only interrupt if you are not able to follow the process as it is being explained.

      – Take notes whenever you are being shown HOW to do something, but not about non-work related information.
      Example: Take notes when your are being shown how to create invoice packages, but do not write it down if your trainer tells you that Sally from Accounting is always late because of her kids. If they say that Sally prefers her invoice packages set on her chair and not in her inbox, that you should make a note of because it relates to an action you need to take. Does that make sense?

      As far as social dynamics, understand that not all “rules” will apply in all situations – this will likely be your trickiest hurdle: recognizing the social setting & applying the appropriate social response.

      Good luck to you & remember… internships are about LEARNING. So, give yourself permission to do just that & don’t expect to know it all or be perfectly prepared at the outset.

      1. Rosaline Montague*

        It can be really hard to navigate a new job, for anyone! I just made a huge career shift into a different part of my industry and it was humbling that 20 years of experience didn’t always help me with new tasks or requests.

        Here are two things that helped me a lot:

        1) asking for general protocols from my colleagues and boss for tasks I hadn’t done before. This lets people think-talk you through the steps they would take. Make sure to take good notes.

        2) if I got a request I was unsure about, i’d say, “let me check with Boss about the protocol for X, and then I’ll get back with you. What’s your timeline?”

  32. Karen from Finance's Work is Full of Bees*

    I’m the one who wrote last week about a psycho new hire who hurts animals and doesn’t respect boundaries.

    Good news: I’ve managed to avoid her this week, and she’s more or less keeping to herself, like sheno longer joins us for lunch. She pissed WorkFriend off too much and got told off on Tuesday, she’s retreated for a bit. We didn’t report on it (more on that below) but we have been telling people about her on watercooler conversations, just so they’re aware. It’s.. Okay I guess.

    As I was mulling over whether I should report her, something possibly more insane happened. The (male, 40-yo) CEO/owner has devolved into greeting me by putting his arm over my (27, female) shoulder and saying “hi baby”, and then just hanging there in a side-hug. In public, while I’m speaking about work in an oppen office to other people, who do not react at all. “That’s just him”. The first time he did this I was visibly confused and I just kind of stared into nothing, moved awkardly (he didn’t remove his arm) and vaguely said something work-related before getting back to what I was doing before. That day my mind broke, that was my “this is it, I’m done” moment. I had a meeting right after where I spent the whole meeting thinking whether I should just impromptu quit, but didn’t. And then the next day he did the exact same thing but with me and a male coworker at the same time – like, one arm hanging on my shoulder and the other arm over the male coworker’s one. He does this to everyone, he’s just recently started doing it to me. I’m not ok with it but I don’t have the emotional energy to fight the entire company (HR lady is his friend and former boss) over this right now, I need the energy for my escape, but as a feminist it’s conflicting. And there’s also the fact that I’ve heard of situations of actual sexual misconduct that people here just think are normal part of a company hookup culture. I don’t think I can win this one.

    ….

    So I decided I don’t give a crap anymore. I’m slowly starting to throw out of the window everything I’ve learned about behaving professionally, because clearly I’m the only one in this place who cares about that. I’m losing my mental filter and I’m actually starting to say what I think about people and people are agreeing with me. To me, rule n°1 is “you don’t talk shit about people’s bosses, ever”. But today I broke that mental barreer and she was like “oh you finally figured it out” – and we’re getting shit done. It’s insane.

    And this whole thing is creating a mental fog for me that is handicapping my job search. It’s been going well. I’ve been getting interviews, callbacks. I’m waiting for a response on the most exciting possibility (which would still take at least a month till final decision) today. But I’m so confused about everything that at this point I don’t even know what job I’m supposed to be doing.

    2. Jules the 3rd*

      Make sure you read some of Alison’s articles on dysfunctional workplaces and how not to carry that with you to the next job. And good luck getting out of there, sounds awful.

    3. Quiet Observer*

      Try not to carry this with you into the next job. Also…try not to sink to their level. If dysfunction, borderline sexual harassment, and gossip are the norm, it’s easy to ‘if you can’t beat em, join em’. But that just brings you, your reputation, and your work ethic down. Try to hold on to your professionalism. Avoid absorbing the insanity as much as possible.

    4. A Person*

      As a toxic workplace survivor, in my experience once you get to that point your colleagues already know you’re on your way out. My advice is to focus on your core job duties, the stuff that really needs to get done, when you first get to work and then focus on your job search when that’s out of the way for the day. If you have leave time, start taking a day off a couple times a month. If you get breaks or a full hour for lunch, take them and get out of the office, even if it’s just to the parking lot. Minimize your exposure to the crazy so when you do finally get a better job, you can adjust to a normal work environment again.

    5. Fortitude Jones*

      What in the world?! I thought the coworker was bad, but the CEO touching employees and calling them baby?! Yikes! I will send all the good vibes your way so you can hurry up and get out of that place.

      1. Kat in VA*

        Oof. I am a touchy feely person – WITH “MY” PEOPLE. That means family, friends, and coworkers who are comfortable with touch…and I’m very cued to the coworker/friend/even family member who looks even slightly uncomfortable at a preliminary arm touch (and so afterward I would never escalate to hugs or backpats or whatever).

        You can be touchy feely, and some people like that or encourage it or are touchy-feely themselves.

        But – I should note that I’m also an executive assistant and there’s, like, two people maybe in the office whom could be considered “subordinate” to me. Now, if I were a VP? That touchy-feeliness would have to be reeled way, WAY in because of the implied and actual power imbalance at play.

        The point of that whole rant is Karen From Finance’s CEO is a DICK. :(

    6. The Man, Becky Lynch*

      No. No. No. I feel like you’re slipping into Hellmouth territory the more and more this goes on. This is so bad for your mind and I hope that you are able to find some kind of assistance for the damage it’s causing [therapy is great but not for everyone of course but sometimes you just need to detox and let it all out, which you know, we’re all here for you].

      He’s playing in the deep end now and dipping into the hostile work environment waters. You are being sexually harassed, no matter how much anyone wants to brush it off, as you know, evil. bees. all. of. these. bees.

      I know you’re going to get out and you’re going to be okay. But right now it’s about survival mode and you’re a strong, intelligent woman who will survive this and tell tales for years about this hive of dillweeds. Power through. Remind yourself that this will be over and you will be free and that this is not normal or okay [it’s hard, it’s easier said than done but I’ve been there. I’ve had that mental fog start to take over your mind when you’re trying to flee and I did it, you can do it, you will do it.]

      1. Karen from Finance's Work is Full of Bees*

        Thank you. This is definitely slipping into Hellmouth territory, and I think that’s why I’m copying her strategy of using this space. I can’t tell you how much these open threads, but also reading this blog daily, is helping me remind myself of who I actually am as a person and as a professional. Because I can feel this place start to change me and I don’t like it.

        I have a wonderful partner who’s being really supportive at home, but he’s suffering a lot at his own job and I fear over how much I’m burdening him. His concern is that I’m looking for an ideal job instead of taking the first thing that comes up and running for the hills. My concern is being very careful about my next move so that I don’t end up in a new beehive. But I can see how that’s frustrating to watch on his end.

        I also have friends who I tell about this every now and then and it helps, but it’s not enough. I’m concerned about monopolizing the conversation and whenever the topic comes up, that’s what happens, so I can only comfortably limit it to spaced out stories. They think this place is insane too and that I’ll be telling these stories for the rest of my life (I will).

        And then I’m trying to forget about all of this anger and frustration in job interviews because! you don’t talk bad about your company”. But rehearsing scripts about differences in culture, or differences in vision, or just wanting to try something new, or whatever fits best for the interview in question… that is also contributing to mental fatigue, I’m trying to believe the excuses I make for the company. When discussing challenging situations that I’ve had to overcome at work it happens a lot: I have many of those but I have to adjust my vocabulary when talking about them so that I don’t fall into a rant, but I’m scared I’ll start to believe it. Hence, mental fog.

        Also I just want to get an offer that’s objectively good enough that they don’t even try to keep me because they can’t compete. A few of those jobs are there for me because I’m being criminally underpaid and underutilized, but I just need to get them. I need this before I quit because I really don’t want to go through the thing we see so often here where they try to make me stay which would also be draining.

        So yes, thank you, and thank you to all who commented above. Y’all are keeping me centered.

        1. The Man, Becky Lynch*

          This is the prefect space for venting and for expressing your frustrations, since it also comes with a bunch of us who have not only been there and understand but who are on this blog because we want to assist others getting the best out of work/careers as possible. It’s important to get it out there and when it can be in front of more than just sympathetic ears like your local support system are, it’s incredibly therapeutic and healing!

          I understand your partner’s position but I had to reel my partner in the last time he had a job search and was in a position where he was thinking of just taking whatever came to him, like he usually has always done. My philosophy is different and is much closer to yours. You look before you leap. Going from one fire to the next isn’t going to be helpful in the long run and it repeats the cycle. I had a heart to heart with him and was able to get him to slow his roll a bit and really look for the right ‘fit’ this time around. However since this was my urging and my desire as well, I took on the financial hit [and thankfully I’m in a place to do so, not everyone is able to support someone financially and money really is a driving factor] in order for him to find happiness. He’s now been with his firm for over a year now and it’s been pretty blissful, minus some annoying coworkers but that’s nothing compared to the absolute mess we had dealt with prior, bring on all the messy coworkers if it means no messy ownership/executives who have so much more power over your professional life in the end.

          So I hope that your partner can rethinking his stance on the idea that you need to just jump into whatever presents itself without taking into consideration that it’s still the unknown and there are dangers involved there. But that’s for him to sort out as well and cannot be on your shoulders given all the weight you’re already carrying.

    7. I Work on a Hellmouth*

      Oh my god. Dude, this is all so terrible. You have all of my sympathies, and I hope you get out as quickly as possible. I’m right there with you in the mental fog, so I don’t have much beyond sympathies and hopes for GTFOing stat to offer, but holy crap.

      Although if that dude touches you again, I would probably give an exaggerated starled jump and go fully into loudly (I mean really loudly) saying “HEY, I REALLY DON’T LIKE BEING TOUCHED, KTHX,” and when he calls you baby give him a scary rictus of a grin and (again, really loudly) saying “ACTUALLY, IT’S KAREN. KAREN.,” and if he persists, start carrying scalding coffee with you at all times so you can “accidentally” spill it on the bastard.

      1. Karen from Finance*

        This comment gave me a good chuckle, thank you. I might actually try some of these. If anyone knows about dealing with disfuncional workplaces is you.

        I reeeeally need to ditch that part of me that’s desperate for everyone’s approval, even the approval of THESE PEOPLE, or I won’t make it.

        1. I Work on a Hellmouth*

          It’s a hard thing to ditch. But you can do it! Nolite te bastardes carborundorum!

    8. ContemporaryIssued*

      This is the weird startup, right? Get out before you start thinking the weird unprofessional mindset starts to look normal to you. And good luck, obviously.

    9. Batgirl*

      “Saying “hi baby”, and then just hanging there in a side-hug”. That is…really, really bad, not subtle at all, explicitly sexual behaviour. Like, I can’t think of how you wouldn’t win a court case with that example. He’s just betting on you not wanting to completely upend your life with a court case (who does?). He’s also betting on the way he’s already groomed all the people around you (also, so obvious) to make you feel crazy and alone. Hell, he’s probably also groomed HR lady. I don’t think it’s an accident she’s in that job.
      Hey, if this behaviour is ‘just him’ then why not come up with some behaviour that’s ‘just you’. Like, hey “I’m so easily startled that I’ve elbowed you in the face! While screaming! That’s just me!” Or “Hey, I am that person who describes the etymological link between ‘baby’ and ‘bimbo’ and how funny it is that it’s become something people call our lovers; calling them stupid is hilarious right? I don’t really know when the word leaped over to co-workers and friends though. Lucifer, could you elaborate here?”

      1. Kat in VA*

        I can’t think of how to gracefully get out of that other than to Return Awkward To Sender™. Like, cough uncomfortably and sidestep out of the arm hang, or literally remove his arm and say, “Oh, I’m not fond of being touched by coworkers”. All in a friendly, matter-of-fact tone that doesn’t hurt his feelings (because god knows we don’t want to hurt his feelings but that’s a whole ‘nother rant).

        Just having to accept it because it’s what HE wants – even though it crosses all kinds of boundaries – is bullshit and I, internet stranger, give you full permission to make the situation as awkward and uncomfortable for him as he’s making it for you.

        ™ Captain Awkward, bless her

        1. Karen from Finance*

          I’ve been thinking about these two comments all day.

          This part in Batgirl’s comment:
          He’s also betting on the way he’s already groomed all the people around you (also, so obvious) to make you feel crazy and alone.
          Because when I initially read that, my initial reaction was “Nah, he’s not grooming, he’s just an old-fashioned dude who is painfully clueless and who refuses to learn, and everybody puts up with it. And it’s not ok but it’s not malicious, he doesn’t actually mean to harm”.
          But then I actually heard myself and heard how many times I’ve heard exactly this kind of phrase before. Specifically, it sounds exactly like the kind of things people would say about Weinstein. JFC.

          Which led me to start mulling over your comment. I think that your ideas and a lighter version of some of Hellmouth’s are the best way to go. Because boy do I wish I could give them a piece of my mind, but again, you nailed it here:
          All in a friendly, matter-of-fact tone that doesn’t hurt his feelings (because god knows we don’t want to hurt his feelings but that’s a whole ‘nother rant).
          Exactly. This is why I’m scared of doing anything more drastic, even as I am a literal badge-wearing-feminist. It’s just not safe. They won’t fire me but the potential repercussions to career, reputation, etc etc etc are too high stakes for me to risk when I’m trying to leave.

          And now I’m in such a rage because the thing that I read about in the news is happening to me. It definitely is more serious than even I was admitting when I’d originally posted. Wow.

          But yes, I’ll practice being startled and scared and so forth so that I can do that next time. And rehearse correcting him with my actual name, something like “Jim*… just say Karen”. I think I can manage those until I gtfo.

          *I Lol’ed at the idea of calling him Lucifer, but I like the guy from Lucifer the TV show too much to call him that.

          1. Kat in VA*

            Please don’t be angry at yourself, though, for having to engage in the “I can’t upset this man because fragile male ego” tiptoeing. We, as women, have been ingrained with that garbage from such an early age that it’s almost impossible to entirely erase it from our interactions with men – particularly men in power.

            I’m a raging hardcore feminist myself, and I have put up and continue to put up with behavior that is subtly and/or blatantly sexist, all in the name of either (a) not pissing off a dude because his ego certainly can’t handle me saying, “Wow, what a sexist thing to say/do”* or (b) I don’t want to get the reputation of being That Humorless Feminazi EA Who Never Lets Anyone Forget That Men And Women Should Be Equal in my workplace. (I work in tech, specifically cybersecurity, specifically with government, so there’s layers upon layers of good old boy sexist nonsense going on.)

            I’m sorry you have to resort to the “startled/scared” reaction instead of just being able to say (like a man would), “Hey, Jim, don’t call me ‘baby’, seriously?” or “Don’t put your arm around me like I’m your girlfriend, be professional, dude!

            It sucks we still have to play this stupid game of not-quite-banter to get what we want (which is to be treated with parity professionally if not personally). BUT at least by calling attention to his thoughtlessness – and I’m pretty sure we both know he’s not being “thoughtless”, he’s being a jackass – you should be able to cut down on his overly-familiar and patronizing treatment of you.

            * the one exception is my immediate boss – he has a habit of thoughtlessly saying things like “lady lawyer” or whatever – and I can and will call him out on it whenever I am able, because he’s one of the teachable ones and his ego doesn’t get in the way. He’s rarer than hens’ teeth, however; the awesome follow-up is that when I call him out on something and someone else ends up doing it? He’ll call them out too. So not all is in vain!

  33. Falling Diphthong*

    (Dear Ask a Manager)

    My (boss) has send me an order to get to Mari to appear before the junior ugbabtum priestess. I have to direct work here and the field on which I am directing work is in actual danger. If I stay here myself right now I can certainly keep the entire crew together, but once I have dropped the work and have left, the crew will disperse, the work will be abandoned, and the (project) will be in dire need of irrigation water. I just cannot possibly leave.

    Signed, Kibri-Dagan, middle manager in Mesopotamia 4000 years ago, via clay tablet

    From the book Cities: The First 6000 Years by Monica L. Smith, proving that there are no new work problems under the sun.

    1. Troutwaxer*

      I think the OP should send one of those new-fangled cuneiform tablets to their boss, cc-ing the ugbabtum priestess. The table should explain the situation and suggest that the boss send out a temporary manager while the OP makes his pilgrimage. The OP should pay extra for the seven-day delivery, so the boss and the junior priestess are not inconvenienced.

      1. Elizabeth West*

        Completely off topic, but I actually learned about cuneiform from the Professor on Gilligan’s Island.

  34. De Minimis*

    Had a rough week. My manager said I wasn’t working quickly enough and that she expected more than she was getting [in so many words.] I’ve tried to improve since then, but it worries me that I’m on thin ice in a job I just started.

    I’ve had similar issues in a lot of my jobs, especially when starting out. I’m hoping I can salvage things, but I’m pretty anxious right now. The last couple of days have gone better, but my “I’m gonna get fired” paranoia is at its peak again. I already used my “freebie” job hop when I quit my last job for this one. I was fired from a job about 10 years ago and so I’ve only just now gotten to where enough time has passed where that’s just a distant blip on my work record, I’d hate to once again have something bad that I had to try and explain when looking for a few job. I feel like my manager is kind of hot and cold and I never really know how things are going to be from day to day.

    A lot of the problem is me, some of these issues have been brought up repeatedly, ever since I made the transition from blue-collar work to professional office settings. I’m trying to view this as an opportunity to change.

    1. Jules the 3rd*

      Good luck… Since you know some of the problem is you, you might try writing down the steps you want to take to solve them and asking your manager if she thinks this will help, and if manager has any other suggestions.

      1. Troutwaxer*

        Ask your manager to give you a list of what you need to improve on In Order of Priorities.

    2. VLookupsAreMyLife*

      I’m sorry – that’s really discouraging, I’m sure.

      You mentioned this has been a pattern for you, particularly when you beginning a new job. Does it tend to get better with time – like, it just takes you a while to get up to speed, but then you’re fine? Or, do you find that you never really hit that efficiency mark even after you’re familiar with the job?

      If it’s the former, you might want to have that conversation with your manager now and reassure her that, you’re not a quick-learner, but you do get to where you need to be with time and your have a track record of excellence in quality. Despite hiring managers always seeming to want a “quick study,” most will understand that a little patience on the front end is worth it when you have someone who will deliver high quality work, consistently.

      However, if it’s the latter, you might need to work with a professional to assess your work habits and see what’s keeping you from achieving the standard pace. You can certainly reach out to your current manager and clarify her expectations. But, it sounds like this is about more than this one particular situation. So, I’m wondering if a higher-level approach and working with a job coach might be helpful?

      Good luck to you!

      1. De Minimis*

        It’s gotten better depending on the job and how things are with the supervisor. There have been other times when it’s never really gotten on track [my first professional position, as well as the job I left before this one.] I’m hopeful that this will be a case where it’ll get better so long as I’m mindful about what I’m doing.

        I think there are probably mental health issues that cause some of the difficulty.

    3. Wakeens Teapots LTD*

      Are you on thin ice, though? I think you owe it to yourself to take a big breath and mentally reframe the situation, because all you got was feedback in a new job.

      Example from my world: relatively new, entry level employee slotted into a position where he is doing perfectly fine work. I’m the grandboss (actually, the great great boss) but the work in this basic position is visible in such a way that if it isn’t done well, it is personally irritating to me. (It’s a basic web artist position if that helps fill out why I would even notice – ultimately it stares me in the face.)

      This guy is the first new hire in the last couple years that hasn’t driven me crazy by me coming across crappy or inconsistent work showing lapses in judgement or sloppy habits. Thumbs up, new guy!

      Well also and at the same time there was a backlog in the department and we looked at the everybody’s numbers. New guy needed to be producing about 20% more on a daily basis. So an conversation was had with him to ask him what was needed to meet those numbers and keep his quality. (the answer turned out be mostly that he needed better starting material provided to him & some guidance about what corners were okay to cut/how to make more efficient decisions)

      At no time was New Guy on thin ice. We love New Guy!

      You see where I am going there?

      Absent information that you are on thin ice, please don’t go there in your brain and make yourself feel like crap. <3

      1. De Minimis*

        I think it was mainly some of the language she was using, like “This is your last warning…” Also she mentioned how my predecessor [when the position was a much lower level position] was doing more than I am currently doing. In general, I think there’s some issues defining the duties of the job [it’s a new position.]

        1. quirkypants*

          Ouch, I hate to be blunt but it does sound like you are on thin ice.

          It’s great you’re recognizing that there are some repeating patterns and issues, have you figured out how to address them?

          Since you are already on thin ice, you may not have anything to lose by just being honest with her. You know these are an issue, you’re working on it in the following ways, you commit to doing X, Y and Z, etc. Unfortunately, your manager may not be able to wait until you can fix these issues but it’s worth a try. I wonder, also, if you were honest about how you represented yourself in hiring… Did you say anything that could be misconstrued as selling yourself on some of the things you struggle with? That may be limiting her patience more.

          I recently hired someone who truly misrepresented himself in the interview process and it is definitely a factor in how I coach him. It’s VERY frustrating from my POV and at his level it also shows that he doesn’t have a grasp on his own strengths and weaknesses.

          If you need to look for new work, can you try to find positions that minimize the sorts of things you struggle with repeatedly? (ie, if you don’t deal with pressure or tight timelines, try looking for a different type of environment or role).

          I’d also suggest being open about what you’re working on and what kinds of roles you would excel in when interviewing. Your new managers will be able to make an informed decision about deciding to work with you. For instance, some managers will know they absolutely need someone who works fast and delivers fair quality work and others might be more patient about speed if you contribute at a higher quality.

          Good luck.

        2. Wakeens Teapots LTD*

          UGH.

          It is so hard to define productivity expectations for newly created jobs. Don’t be quick to put this on yourself. We have created new positions (often on the fly) many many times over the years and I surely don’t remember one time that what actually happened matched what we would expect to happen. When projecting, bosses almost always think things will be much faster than they actually are. Now we expect it will take a couple months, minimum, to figure out what productivity expectations for a new job are. I like to start out with a wish list of what the job will cover, but not load everything on, and then see how real life works out for everything the job can actually encompass.

          Now. “This is your last warning” is some pretty serious shit for a boss to say, I can’t sugar coat that and I can’t say I have any real advice. If you think your boss might find your keeping track of metrics (to assist her in coming up with productivity levels for the new job) helpful, you could volunteer that?

          I hope this works out for you!

          1. De Minimis*

            When I think about it more, I think she probably used the phrase without thinking about how it might come across. But if I hadn’t taken corrective action these last couple of days the situation might have continued to get worse.

            I do think I always misrepresent myself in interviews…I have a weakness that I always have to really work hard to overcome that makes it hard for me to succeed in a lot of jobs, but if I were open about it I wouldn’t ever get a position.

            One thing I don’t really get, they’ve starting me out doing tasks with the expectation apparently that I will eventually be handing those off to another employee [also new in their position.] So I get this sense that I’ve been in this job a couple of months and it hasn’t really “started” yet. I was able to take over one of the more advanced tasks last month, but so far that’s really the only one of the tasks I’ve been doing that is supposed to be one of my planned job duties. So the job isn’t very well defined, and there are process/workflow issues as well. But I’ve been in workplaces where things really seemed like a bad fit at first and I was able to adapt.

            We’ll see what happens over the next month. I think if I continue to make improvements it will probably be okay.

            1. Chopsington*

              There’s a few fundamental questions.

              1. Do you actually know what your boss expects you to be doing? If no, that’s the first problem, because you can’t address not doing enough if you’re doing three wrong thing.

              2. Do you agree with your boss’s assessment you’re not doing well enough? If no, that’s the next point of contention you need to resolve because if you and your boss have mismatched expectations it which end well.

              3. Do you know what you need to fix to meet expectations? If no, that’s the next point to get answer to.

              4. Can you actually do the changes necessary AND sustain them? If no, well. Yeah.

              FWIW, from the perspective of a manager I’d encourage you to talk with your manager about the above. In my position the thing I hate the most is reports who are unproductive AND won’t talk to me about what the issues are. I CAN deal with employees whose perf is subpar if I know what the limits are, what is impacting them, etc. I can move projects around, change roles, try to find ways to put them in a place they can get things done. But if they never speak up about their needs, its hard to help.

              There is no virtue in suffering in silence.

            2. Wakeens Teapots LTD*

              Our newly created positions start our weird also. I can see the “learn job task > hand over” logic, because we are big on cross training and I can also see how at sea that makes a new hire feel.

              We try very hard to not hire new people to go into a newly created position. Honestly, it doesn’t usually work out well, to the point where it is like 50/50 the new person will quit in frustration.

              An example of it working out well was hiring a person to open a credit/collections department for us where she had an extensive background in collections + the freedom to form a lot of her own job + necessary internal support + about 6 months to get herself fully up to speed and things running. (credit/collections had previously been done by our corporate parent, so internal support) . An example of it not working out well was an employee who quit after two months, very recently. She had high potential and a lot of support but she could not handle not being stuffed to the brim with work all of the time and decided to accept another job offer that came to her late out of the same interview period in which she accepted our job.

              Chopsington’s questions are great. I appreciate that they saved me the trouble of having to form them because the entire comment is so on point. Let us know how things are going? I’ll check in on Friday threads as I can.

              1. De Minimis*

                I’ll try and check in this week. I think I did much better the last couple of work days last week. June is going to be the make-or-break month.

                As far as the questions, I’d say somewhat of a “No” to the first one but I believe the other three are “Yes.” I know the “preliminary” tasks I’m supposed to be doing, but the other tasks that seem to be more in line with their idea of the regular duties of the position don’t seem to be well-defined. Late last week I initiated something that is related to one of the more advanced tasks.

                I’ve dealt with positions where my working style wasn’t compatible with my manager’s, and was able to still make it work, so I feel that I can do the same here.

  35. Decisions decisions*

    I’m a temp to hire at a global company (Company A) with tons of room for growth. For reasons that are related to business, the hire part has never materialized and since the laws where I am cap out at two years for temp, I’ve started to job search.

    I got another temp to hire offer (Company B) with better hours and a lot less stress but lower pay, all other benefits being about equal. Company B’s location is better and not across town like Company A, but it’s unclear to unlikely whether there’s any room for growth due to company size. They might hire me or not (reading between the lines the chances are 50%) later on.

    Now my manager at Company A, without knowing about this offer, came to me happily and said she secured a position and this would be mine. Since this has to be posted internally by policy, they can still hire someone else, but it’s not likely due to a pretty niche skill set I have with llama grooming.

    So, do I gamble on the devil I know (above average pay, nice team, okay boss, stressful but interesting work, permanent position albeit with a small risk of not getting it) or do I take a chance with a blank slate? I realize I have to make my own decision and YMMV, but what would you do?

    1. Falling Diphthong*

      I would go with the devil you know for the interesting work, good pay, and nice environment.

      There are a lot of factors, and it comes down to both how you evaluate them (how likely is this to happen?) and how you weight them (how much would I care if it did happen)?

      1. Decisions decisions*

        Those are very good questions and I think I will have to do some more soul searching until Wednesday (when Company B expects an answer).

    2. LQ*

      I’m a devil you know kind of person. I think it’s important to be mindful of would you be resentful later for not taking the blank slate? I’ve picked the devil I know a few times (the idea of meeting/learning all the ins and outs of an entire new company of people is nearly always the thing that tips the scales for me) and I’ve been really happy with that choice. But I know someone who has picked the devil they know but ends up resentful about the greener grass they are missing out on. I think that you can look back through your personal experience as well as professional to see which you’ll be happier with.

      1. Decisions decisions*

        My introvert would prefer not to move her butt, and if I had both contracts in front of me already… Well, but there’s a small yet significant risk I have to consider and I hate risks.

      1. Fortitude Jones*

        That was my immediate thought regarding Company B, but then OP also said there’s no guarantee she’d even get hired on there and Company A’s offer seems the most likely to materialize. Since I’m generally risk adverse and cannot afford to be out of work, I’d probably stick with Company A.

        1. Decisions decisions*

          I would have a job at Company B for 1-2 years and then they need to decide whether they would hire me permanently, something that is now on the table for Company A. But hiring depends on factors that are out of my control (so even with a stellar performance I might end up with a glowing reference but no job).

          1. Fortitude Jones*

            1-2 years isn’t bad, but then they can also lean more towards the one year lane, which would personally make me uncomfortable. But then the company is closer and is less stress than Company A, so that’s attractive to me as well. Dang, you DO have a hard decision to make here, lol.

      2. Decisions decisions*

        At Company B, you mean? No unfortunately not. Due to the way salary is structured there everyone is paid the same (like a collective bargaining agreement), which I think is very fair generally. Also since I’d be working less hours, it wouldn’t be comparable anyway.

        1. Been There*

          No, I meant that if you have an offer from Company A, could you negotiate a more palatable salary for the position (since as you states, it’s slightly more stress and a worse commute)? This could negate the worse parts of the job.

          I know you said you have above average pay already, but if it’s something that’s important to you, I think it’s worth exploring.

    4. Jules the 3rd*

      How hard was it to find company B? When I last poked at the job market, it was on fire. If it still is, then if company A doesn’t come through, it shouldn’t be too hard to get another offer at someplace like B.

      I’d probably gamble on A, though the drive may also be a factor.

      1. Decisions decisions*

        Luckily it’s a good job market but Company A and B are the only ones in town for my field, so if I don’t take Company B’s offer and for some reason am not getting a job with Company A then I need to move to the next bigger metro area. I’m generally open to moving but had been hoping to avoid it because I really love it here.

        And yes you’re right, the commute is a factor. Thank you for your answer though, I’m very happy to hear everyone’s opinion!

    5. CatCat*

      I am more of a “bird in hand” sort of person. You have to look at your own risk tolerance. What if you DON’T get the Company A job? Are you able to meet your financial obligations if that happens?

      I would tell my manager about the offer. “Since I was set to cap out on my two years, I started looking for a new job. I have an offer from Company B and need to let them know by [X date] whether I will accept. However, I would love to stay with Company A and didn’t even know that was a possibility until you spoke to me. Is there any chance Company A will be able to consider me and, if interested, make an offer before [X date]?”

      1. Fortitude Jones*

        I like that language – I would have this conversation with your current employer, OP.

        1. Decisions decisions*

          I’m lucky in that I have a manager who is understanding about the situation in general. I told her when I started job searching because we’re all aware of the realities of the situation we’re in and I think it’s also the reason why now a position materialized that was, frankly, not looking very likely four weeks ago. So I did tell her about the job offer, but since Company A moves glacially they can’t make a decision by the middle of next week when I need to tell Company B. She was understanding and told me she hopes I make the right decision for myself and my career which I thought was very kind of her.

          If I don’t get a job with Company A and haven’t found anything I’d be receiving unemployment, and luckily it’s a pretty good job market for me right now but unfortunately if neither Company A nor B materialize I’d have to move. :/

          1. Fortitude Jones*

            Dang. This is tricky. Can you go back and ask Company B for some additional time to decide?

  36. Toxic Waste*

    I have a job offer. My manager is out today, so is it okay to give notice next week? It won’t be exactly 2 weeks though…

    Also, do I have to tell her what company I’m going to if she asks?

    1. Anonysand*

      That’s what I did with my last job- got the offer on a Friday, but my boss was out until the following Wednesday. She was incredibly understanding and during the interim while she was out/before I could tell her, I did my best to begin prepping my work and organizing anything that needed to be passed off that way things were already in motion.

      I think as long as you have a good relationship with your boss, you should be good. And it’s completely up to you if you’d like to tell her what company. It’s not required, but can’t hurt as long as you don’t think they’d actively try to sabotage you. You’re probably going to get that question from a lot of your coworkers before you leave, too.

    2. Mediamaven*

      I’ve never understood why someone quitting is so secretive about where they are going. Why is it confidential? I’ll find out as soon as you put it on Linkedin. Why can’t you just share it? You don’t have to do anything but what’s to gain by not telling her?

      1. TGIF*

        I’ve worked at places where I had a genuine concern that my evil boss might try to call my new employer & ruin the opportunity for me with lies.

        1. Iron Chef Boyardee*

          “my evil boss might try to call my new employer & ruin the opportunity for me with lies.”

          How will evil boss know where your new job is? They can’t force you to share that information, right?

        2. Federal Middle Manager*

          This. I listened from the next room over when my evil boss tanked someone’s offer completely out of spite. He not-so-subtly implied that a former employee of 10 years had stolen from the company and that he wouldn’t trust her keeping books. This was a complete fabrication. He trusted her to do 100% of his business and personal finances until the day she left and would have happily continued if she’d stayed. The only wrong she committed was leaving for a better job. If he were a boyfriend, he’d be the “if I can’t have her, no one can” type. After that I made extra certain when I was applying to not give any hints where I was going and was explicit that HR was not to call my current employer.

      2. Toxic Waste*

        I don’t trust boss 100%, I don’t want to be sabotaged, etc. Plus the past few jobs I’ve left because of school, not another job, so I’m not sure what to say or how much to say…

      3. CupcakeCounter*

        If your boss is not a good one and they know people at new job some sabotage might happen. I had a great boss and still didn’t tell him where I was going.

        1. Fortitude Jones*

          I was very vague with my last boss when she asked where I was going. I told her I accepted a fully remote job for a software company that’s based outside of Philly and left it at that. I told my coworkers the name of the place once I got closer to my last day though.

    3. Llama Wrangler*

      I agree with Annonysand about the company. In any normal circumstance, you definitely don’t have to say where you’re going, but if you’re worried about sabotage or burning bridges because of where you’re going, remember that a lot of people you work with will likely ask. I once told everyone at an organization that I was resigning and I didn’t want to share anything about my next step because it wasn’t set in stone yet (it was).

      1. The cat's pajamas*

        I just found out that we’re hiring someone who works with a bunch of people I worked with at a previous job. They have been in upper management roles, in their current role for barely a year, and taking a step down to a senior individual contributor role. I know this happens for Reasons sometimes, but they aren’t connected to my connections on their team. Is this a red flag? I don’t know if they’ve given their notice, so waiting a bit to ask around. If I get bad vibes, should I give my boss a heads up or wait and see?

        1. the cat's pajamas*

          Oops! Sorry – meant to post this as a new comment, something borked on my phone!

    4. Lora*

      You can email even if she doesn’t get back to see it for a while.

      No, you don’t have to tell. You can say something vague about A Great Opportunity I Couldn’t Pass Up.

    5. Not Me*

      Giving two weeks notice is the standard, but it isn’t required in any way. (They also don’t have to keep you on for the notice, they could terminate your employment as soon as you give notice. It works both ways)

    6. Quiet Observer*

      Do you have boss’s cell phone? Would it be odd to call while she is out of office? At least telling her by phone would give her more time to process and plan.

    7. VLookupsAreMyLife*

      If it were me, I’d email my manager’s boss & cc my manager today. You may also wish to include HR if your company has one. When resigning, you always want to give notice in writing, with a date.

      Many companies have a policy that you are not rehireable if you do not provide sufficient notice (typically 2-weeks in the US, but not always). Since a lot of pre-employment reference checks will ask former employers if you are rehireable, I’d suggest doing everything in your power to protect that status. It really has nothing to do with “I’ll never work there again” and more to do with securing future employment.

      Just because your manager is out today, doesn’t mean normal business operations have ceased. Do what you have to do to set yourself up for future success. And, congrats on the new job!!

  37. Anonysand*

    Can anyone here provide any details/information/experience with an MBA program with a concentration in Marketing that they would be willing to share? I’m tentatively planning on enrolling in that program this fall, but I’m a little worried about the math requirements since I only took the required courses during my undergrad.

    1. Jules the 3rd*

      I did an MBA concentration in Supply Chain, couple of general level Marketing courses.

      * You have to know how to add / divide / multiply.
      * You have to know how to work with word problems, and pick out the relevant numbers.
      * You have to know how to use the numbers you have to figure out numbers you don’t have

      Example: ‘There’s 4 restaurants in this area of town. They can serve 100 people / day each. About 1/10th of the city’s population live or work in this area of town. About 7,000 people / day eat out at restaurants in this town. Is there demand for another restaurant in this area of town?’ (answer: yes unless there’s something weird about that area; look into unusual characteristics of that area, such as poverty or kind of work dominating the area to see if there’s a reason why they’re underserved.)
      (Math behind the yes:
      4 restaurants * 100 served in each = 400 people.
      1/10th of the town’s 7,000 people = 700 people.
      About 300 people are probably leaving this area of town to eat in other areas; if 100 people / day is a viable restaurant, then there should be lots of local demand.)

      If you can follow that logic and math, you can handle the basic MBA / Marketing math. Accounting, same thing. Intro Finance, this is probably enough, but advanced Finance – you need a good understanding of statistics, and maybe more. I vaguely remember a couple of calculus formulas when talking about Black-Scholes and risk management, but iirc we could just accept that they were accurate, we didn’t need to calculate them.

      1. Jules the 3rd*

        The example above vaguely parallels an actual MBA marketing problem in class about bars and alcohol, where alcohol licenses were a key useful number. There were a ton of numbers in the problem, it was about three pages of background and details. The hard part was not the math, it was figuring out which numbers were useful.

        1. Anonysand*

          This is great information to know! I’m pretty decent at Math, but as a communication major it was never a focus of my studies. Thanks for this, though- I’m feeling much better about it!

    2. Gene Parmesan*

      Can I ask why you’re considering a marketing MBA? What skills do you expect to develop and what field do you want to enter? I have a BA in Business but am more interested in the marketing aspects and have wondered about how to grow in that direction…

      1. Anonysand*

        Well, I’m currently working on the social/digital media side of marketing in an entry level position and would like to expand my skills and portfolio to include more than just my little niche area. My undergrad degree is in Communication and Digital Media, so I’m interested in the marketing MBA as a way to flesh out my education with more of a practical/business focused degree that way I can continue to move up in my career and hopefully land as a director of communication or director of marketing.

        Also, just to be totally transparent, I work in a higher ed institution that offers a marketing MBA and I get waived tuition, so that’s kind of a big proponent in the choice. I’d been considering a Master’s before getting my current position though (but hadn’t decided where or what program specifically), but after looking at the coursework it seems like a great addition to my communication degree.

    3. Snarktini*

      For my MBA (not exactly marketing but similar), math wasn’t an entrance requirement or a critical skill beyond what Jules the 3rd described. Basic case study / analysis kind of calculations. Accounting and finance courses were really tough and definitely math-y, but we muddled through. Spreadsheets do most of the work as long as you can bring the logic per Jules.

      Based on what you’re saying, it doesn’t sound like you have to take an entrance exam like the GMAT, which would also be a math hurdle.

  38. Akcipitrokulo*

    I’m leaving this job in 1 week – it’s been awesome and I’m going to miss it a lot! Been here several years and a bit nervous about new job. It should be a great opportunity, but here is *such* a healthy culture and environment – I’m worried new job won’t be quite this great!

    1. Workerbee*

      Think instead about all you learned during the interview process, and what made you decide to try this particular new challenge.

      You’re opening a door to an opportunity, not cementing yourself in stone one way or another. You’ll rock your first day.

  39. LQ*

    I had to apply for a promotion into the work I’m doing now. (It’s the work I’m doing now, but I have to go through and apply and interview and all of that.)

    Despite it being the work I’m currently doing I’m still terrified I’m not going to get the job. It closes next week (it has to be open for a week, and yes, this is absolutely, I hope, the thing everyone complains about with an open posting but an already selected person, but I can’t change it and I’m not going to turn down the job that I’m currently doing because it might not be fair to someone else who isn’t and hasn’t been doing the work for two years, I’m fixing the IT department, not the HR department) and I am incredibly nervous about all the steps that go into it.

    If this goes through I’ll be supervising someone(s) who are currently peer(s) but on another team. I’m fairly sure that at least one of them advocated to be on my team. But what is the first thing you’d want to know from a new boss/former coworker? I’m starting to count my chickens a little to prepare and want to go into that reorganized relationship well.

  40. Fergus, the one from GoT*

    I have an interview next week for a position that is a step back in my career (I was laid off last week). When I’m asked why I’m interested in this role, what do I say? I would usually try to find anything all all that is appealing about it, but the only reasons I applied are it’s better than being unemployed and it’s close to home (most positions would be an almost two hour commute each way). The best I can think of is mentioning that I was part of a recent restructuring and was excited to see a role doing X near me and that I’m looking for a position nearby where i can do X for the long run.

    Second question is about references. At the job I had before my most recent (lay off) job, I was on a PIP (for work quality) and ended up quitting right before I was going to be fired because I thankfully had another job lined up. I know I can’t use my manager as a reference because he said if he was a reference he would talk up my strengths but would have to be honest about almost being fired. I have three references otherwise who are all managers, but how do I respond if someone asks to speak with my manager from that position. In my field it would be highly unusual to not list them, this job makes up roughly half of my total professional experience, and is at a highly-regarded employer in my field (think like google or Apple) so from my experience, employers want to know how I performed there. I can possibly get another reference from there but the main challenge is what to say when they ask to speak with my manager from there? Thank you in advance for all of your help! It’s so nice to be able to have a community to help in my time of need.

    1. Zephy*

      > I was part of a recent restructuring and was excited to see a role doing X near me and that I’m looking for a position nearby where i can do X for the long run.

      That’s probably a good answer, tbh. If you can find anything the company is working on or recently did that you can express interest/excitement about, that will help.

      1. The New Wanderer*

        I agree, and if there’s anything even slightly different in the job description compared to what you do, latch onto that as the thing you find most appealing. Or that you’ve been a step removed from (more junior level) tasks and you’d like to expand or refresh your skills in those areas in this new position.

        I’m not sure what to do if they directly ask for your manager at the previous job you’d rather not have as a reference. In my case, my direct manager at the time of layoff was never going to be listed as a reference but I knew his manager would be a good reference (senior manager confirmed this). But I could also plausibly say that the direct manager had only managed me for 6 months vs 4 years reporting to the senior manager. If there’s any way to frame it around the alternate references being better judges of your capabilities with respect to this specific job opportunity, I’d try that.

    2. Rosaline Montague*

      As for the reference question—you don’t want to look like you’re being shady and hiding a reference. I’d be ready to frame it for the new company though, and be up front about the challenge that caused the PIP and most importantly HOW IT WONT BE A PROBLEM IF THEY HIRE YOU NOW prior to them doing reference checks, maybe under one of those “biggest challenge” questions.

      So if your PIP was for tardiness, you could say “When I worked for Goople I had a long commute so I struggled with timeliness, which was a big deal in that company. Now that I’m several years down the professional road and X conditions are different with this company, it won’t be an issue here.”

      What I would want to hear if I were hiring someone who almost got fired is what they learned and what’s different now.

  41. Robyn Arryn's Fancy Clothes*

    So I kind of just fall into jobs… I’ve had positions in about 6 or 7 different fields at this point in my life. I got a degree in one field and worked in it for a while before I realized I was just not cut out for it. After that, I landed in retail for a while, and then a move forced me into a completely different field that a relative got me into. I’ve had a couple more jobs in different fields since then, always starting at the bottom and working up a bit. I’m ready to move on from the job I currently have as it’s not paying market rate and there are no raises/promotions in sight. How do I leverage all these various jobs and skills I’ve gained? I’ve been looked at weird more than once when I describe my job history. I feel awful that I wasn’t able to land in one field and stay there and work my way up, but it just wasn’t in the cards for me. At this point I’ve got nearly 20 years of post-college work experience, but I keep ending up in jobs that just don’t pay enough. (Going back to school is not doable for me)

    1. LQ*

      Part of leveraging it is finding a story or through-line. Even if it’s not WHY it happened making it sound as if there is a narrative of growth can be really useful. I’d also think about smaller companies or roles where you can do a more diverse set of things, that’s where the a little of this and a little of that job history can be really valuable.

    2. ten-four*

      I have a jumbly job history too, and I agree that figuring out your story through-lines is the right idea. You can heavily feature the 2-3 jobs that tell the best story you want to tell for that particular job, and have smaller sections with fewer bullets for the non relevant jobs. I had a few different resumes for a while too – emphasizing different “stories” that fit the job I was applying for. All the rest of Allison’s normal resume advice fits in here too: here’s the outcomes I delivered, here’s the “summary of me as a candidate” in place of an “objective.”

      Jumbly job histories are tough, but I’m living proof that they are surmountable! I’d bet dollars to donuts that if you spend a little time on this you can put together a resume that emphasizes the outcomes that will help you start a job at a higher level than “bottom and working up.”

      In point of fact, that might even BE one of your throughlines: I’m a flexible learner with a history of excelling and rising in organizations.

  42. Rulesfor*

    I am super excited to be moving on to a new job in a few weeks, and I’m getting a lot of pushback from my current job about the length of my notice period. I gave five weeks’ notice, and they knew unofficially for another week before that. (It’s a social services field, so longer notice periods are typical in order to terminate with clients.) I’m also taking two weeks off between jobs, and I think that’s where the pushback is coming from. My current job would love it if I could work right up until the minute I start at my new job, and I’m just not going to do that. That’s how burnout happens. I’m just looking for the best language to use to respectfully remind them (as I will have to repeatedly, over the next five weeks, if previous people’s notice periods are any indication) that I’m entitled to a little break and that it’s not an unreasonable notice period.

    1. AnonyMoosewithTea*

      UGH, I feel you!! In my industry, two weeks notice is typical and my boss wanted me to stay four weeks–because they know that I do so much work for them and was panicking at trying to redistribute the work. I wrote back and said, “After consulting with many others at a similar career level as myself, this amount of notice is comparable to industry standard” and was firm about when I was leaving. This is an at-will position so it’s not like there’s much they can do to me.

      Stick to your guns and don’t let them guilt you! Good luck!

    2. MissDisplaced*

      5 weeks is really generous considering (if you’re in the US) an at-will environment and we don’t have contracts.
      And you deserve some decompression time between jobs! Especially, as you may not get a vacation for a year if the new job is busy and/or the PTO works out that way.

      Ignore them. Do not give in. Do not offer to stay on longer. They will survive.
      If you want, you can answer questions by phone… but I’d be wary of even offering that.

    3. CupcakeCounter*

      Just say, sorry but no.
      If you need to invent a mini-vacation or other plans that are hard to verify. Going to stay with my grandparents to help with Gran’s PT. Mom is having a minor surgery to her foot so I’m going to be hanging out with her. Taking a roar trip with friends – planned for months.

    4. Reba*

      I would absolutely stop talking about the break or your plans after your last day. I don’t mean you need to be mysterious but just that you do not need to justify anything about what you are doing!

      You can stay light and friendly but become a broken record:

      “as you know, my last day is X.”
      But you’re just taking time off, right? Can’t you Blah Blah…
      instead of explaining, “well, I really need some down time” simply say, “I won’t be available for that, my last day is X.”

      1. Reba*

        Meant to add, “I have plans, I won’t be available after X.”
        Your plans are to chill out and goof off, whatever, those are plans!

    5. dealing with dragons*

      I am having the exact same issue! My new place is super busy right now (hence hiring me) and so they keep giving a concrete date (like june 10) but by the time they get back to me I still don’t have enough time. I’d like to give two weeks here then have a week off, for one to take a planned vacation and also just to get ducks in a row. Yesterday my future manager asked if June 17 would work and she would go to HR with it….but I haven’t heard back.

      We do OTO at this office, so I don’t need to give 2 weeks to meet any legal requirement for a PTO payout, or anything, but it is considered the norm. I understand the new company needs me asap, but I really need them to pick up the ball :(

    6. Wishing You Well*

      Please check to see if you have health care coverage during those 2 weeks between jobs. It’s a good thing to know. Best of luck with the new job!

  43. AnonyMoosewithTea*

    I am starting a new job soon and my old job would like to contract with me to finish up a project. Is there a rule of thumb for how much more you should charge as an hourly rate when you’re a contractor vs. working for a company? E.g. if my hourly rate now is $25, is there a simple bump up that I should ask for? (That’s not my actual rate, I’m just using it as an example.)

    1. Snarktini*

      I’ve freelanced (in the US) for many years, and the general rule of thumb is that a self-employment rate is about 2x what you’d make as an employee. That covers vacation, benefits, hunting-for-work time, and lots of taxes. However, you may not have to account for all of that because you are moving on to another job and this isn’t a “business” for you, just a side gig. The one thing you absolutely have to account for is the extra taxes (about double!) and whatever the extra hassle of gig work is worth to you. So somewhere in the middle? A 50% bump?

      1. Snarktini*

        p.s. But if you think you have a shot, aim high! They may try to get you to work for less, like a few bucks above your current pay, but keep in mind that behind the scenes they are paying for your salary + taxes + benefits. That means they are ALREADY paying you that 2x, and you’ve proven you’re worth that. Why should they get you for less now?

        1. AnonyMoosewithTea*

          Holy cow – I didn’t realize that the taxes on freelance work would be almost double! This is for work recorded through a 1099, right? I did a calculation of what the benefits would come out to on an hourly basis; in this $25 example, the benefits were $5 an hour (healthcare + retirement), but if the taxes are double, I will need to ask for about $37/38 just to keep up with taxes. The work is immediately following my employment; I wonder if they can just keep me on payroll for another two weeks or something–I would just call it even for that, given the amount of work.

          1. T. Boone Pickens*

            Yeah taxes can get quite high once you go self-employed, you’re paying both ends of social security which is 15%, state, federal plus you might have to pay a small piece for unemployment insurance.

          2. Gumby*

            Not all of the taxes are double – but social security and medicare deductions are. (Usually the employer pays half and takes half out from the employee’s paycheck.)

            Still, 1.5 – 2 times as much as your previous hourly rate is well within the ballpark of reasonable. If your former employer doesn’t agree then… they can find someone else to do the work.

            1. AnonyMoosewithTea*

              Oooh, gotcha. That’s helpful to know as well. I asked them to send me an offer first so that I know how much they’re trying to get away with (something tells me they will try to low-ball me), and then I can make a very high counter-offer, and hopefully we’ll agree to get somewhere in the middle. Thank you!

    2. Goose Lavel*

      They will negotiate you down. I’d start off at $100 an hour and go from there.

      2. ..Kat..*

        This. Also, do you really want to do this contract work? How many hours a week are you thinking you can do while working a full time job? Would you be committing to finishing the project, or just a set period of time (keep in mind that projects can change goals and thus drag on a long time).

        Personally, I would concentrate on new job – which is where you want to shine. You don’t want to be tired or stressed out because you are trying to get old job done.

        If you do contract though, I recommend you charge 2 to 3 times your current hourly rate. If they are going to try to low ball you, they don’t really need (or appreciate) you. And set a limit on number of hours per week that you will do work for them.

  44. Red*

    Does anyone have recommendations for resumes where a person has attended multiple colleges before graduating? Has Allison written about this? I feel like she has, but I haven’t been able to find anything just yet.

    For context: My youngest sibling just graduated from college (yay!), and is worried about their resume because they switched schools a couple of times before finding a program that really suited them. There’s a significant age gap between us, and I don’t want to steer them wrong if convention around this has changed!

    1. LSP*

      Your sibling only needs to list the name of the institution they graduated from. No need to list any of the other schools at all under the education section. If they have extra-curriculars from those other schools they want to list, they can under “other”. No need to explain, as a LOT of people switch schools ahead of graduating.

    2. KatieKate*

      All they need is the school they graduated from. I transferred once when I was in college and don’t bother including my original school.

    3. Murphy*

      Do they need to put that on their resume? I think they can just list where they got their degree. (Unless there’s some specific reason for that job to say they took classes in llama grooming at University A before graduating with a degree in teapot design from University B)

    4. Detective Amy Santiago*

      I think the standard convention is to simply list the school where the degree was obtained and the name of the degree.

    5. Janey-Jane*

      I tell students that unless you got a degree from another school (an associates/bachelors, etc) you don’t need to even put the other school on their. Additionally, you can just put the graduation date, not the entire range of time at a university.

    6. No Tribble At All*

      I did this exact thing! For my very first resume when I was graduating, I included the first college because I spent a year there and it was relevant coursework :

      BS, Warp Drive Engineering, Starfleet Academy 2016 – 2019
      Vulcan Academy of Sciences, XX Credit-Hours, 2015-2016

      If Sib did 3 years at Vulcan majoring in Vulcan Harp before switching to Warp Drive Engineering (so no overlap of classes), it’s OK to leave off the Vulcan Science Academy entirely.

    7. knitter*

      Yes to all of the above commenters. Also, to reinforce–if she includes a date, she should only put the date of graduating. I remember seeing a resume once where the applicant had put that they had attended a 4 year school for two years but had not listed any other education. We interviewed her and it was clear she attended somewhere else first, but it was really confusing when doing a quick review.

    8. Kiki*

      I would include just the place they graduated from, the degree they graduated with, and the year.
      An exception to that being if there’s some advantage to listing the other schools.
      – If your sibling won any notable awards while at other schools, I would include that and for clarity include how many credits were earned at that institution or dates spent there.
      – If the school they attended for a particular set of classes is more renowned for that particular subject than the place they graduated from, they could include that (only if they performed really well in those classes). For example, if you graduated from a school best known for its liberal arts program, but took a huge chunk of your biology classes at Johns Hopkins (and aced them), it may be worth it to bring that up on your resume for a biology job.

    9. Transfer Student*

      I transferred after a year, and list the degree-granting school, graduation date, and GPA from that school. If someone requested my transcripts, that’s the GPA they’d see, not an averaged one from both schools. (It works to my advantage that the GPA from the first school is firmly unimpressive, and the GPA from the second school is pretty good.) I worry sometimes about applications where they want start and end dates for education, and confusing people with having less than 4 years there, but it hasn’t been an issue for me personally.

    10. minuteye*

      I agree with the commenters stating she just needs to put the graduating year and graduating school. However, if there’s some reason why another of her schools needs to be referenced (e.g. work at an on-campus association, extra-curriculars, etc.) then she can go with the format:

      2018 – B.Sc. from Winslow University (transferred from Campbell University, 2016)

      I do this on my CV (conventions are a little different in academia), in cases where transcripts are going to be attached, for instance, since having random files with “Campbell University” on them would be quite confusing.
      But outside of those restricted circumstances, not necessary.

  45. Teapot Compliance*

    TL;DR Want new title, manager thinks I can just go by my unofficial new title without formally updating and that I’m making it too big a deal.

    Any tips on explaining to your manager why title is important? My current title isn’t widely used in my industry, ranges widely in use, and a lot lower level than the work I do. I’m working on completely different job duties at this point 4 years in, and want to just update to the completely different department I’m doing work in now. I keep getting weird pushback from my manager that I can go ahead and use a different title or that he’s sensing this is pay related, hang the pay, I want the respect and authority other than the way the current managers descibe me.

    It’s hard to fix attitudes when the main manager of 2/3rds our company describe it as “Oh she’s helping out with teapot compliance, we’re making sure to focus on compliance as an OPs team”. It doesn’t help that he use to have his current position and mine (he did request them to be separate roles). It’s a lot of disclaimers I get from people, so how do I convince my manager that this is damaging to my authority when I need employees know I have authority to act and to fix things for them? He keeps saying its how I act about it, but I can’t fix my peers taking more credit to their contributions and couching mine when the company is indicating that by not updating my title.

    1. Llama Wrangler*

      Ugh, yeah, I had this situation, and my arguments didn’t work, so I don’t have much advice. I tried what you tried, of pointing out how it made doing my work harder/misrepresented our department.

      1. Teapot Compliance*

        Any of the above arguments work best? I’m thinking simplifying the message would be in my favor.

    2. KEWLM0M*

      Is it possible to use the manager’s reasoning for your own position? If it’s really not a big deal, then it shouldn’t be a big deal to change the title, particularly since it will be more accurate. I would leave out the part about respect, because it appears that the manager does not want to accord you the respect of the new title

  46. Lynne879*

    I had a phone interview yesterday that I thought went very well, but was rejected via email a few hours later.

    The interviewer, who would have been my manager, asked me “What traits do you prefer in a manager?” and I said that I liked a manager who gave me some direction, but still let do my work without a whole lot of supervision and I also said I didn’t prefer working with micromanagers. I could tell just by her reaction to the word “micromanager” that my answer kind of put her off, and that was the only question where I felt I could have articulated my answer better.

    On one hand, I’m disappointed I didn’t make it to the next stage of the interview, but on the other hand I think I dodged a bullet if this manager is a micromanager.

    1. Murphy*

      I’m sorry it didn’t work out for you, but yeah I think they might be a micromanager (or at least pretty hands on). I gave a very similar answer at an interview recently and the response I got was “We don’t micromanage here, we don’t have time for that!” I got the job, so I think that answer is OK.

    2. Susan K*

      Very few managers consider themselves to be micromanagers, even if they are, so if that’s why she rejected you, you probably dodged a huge bullet!

    3. fposte*

      As a hiring manager, I think there are better ways to answer that question, though, and I don’t think I’m a micromanager. First, nobody loves micromanagers, because the term is a pejorative; if you don’t mind it, it’s not micromanagement. Second, that then raises the question in my mind of what experience this is actually referring to–is this a candidate who bristled at additional supervision when her work was flagging?

      Think if you asked “What kind of employees succeed best in this position?” and they said “Nobody that needs handholding.” You don’t need handholding and don’t think employees should, but now you’re wondering if maybe they don’t give their employees enough direction and clarity.

      1. Lynne879*

        I’m glad to see an HR person’s take on this. I never had that question be asked before in an interview, so I was a little unsure how to answer it, but I see how my answer could come across from HR’s perspective.

        Now I know not to use that term! I should focus my answer on what I like in a manager & not really go into what I dislike in a manager.

        1. fposte*

          To be clear, I’m not in HR–I just hire sometimes. And I wouldn’t, like, toss a candidate out for your answer–I’m just offering you a take on why I think the first part would be better on its own.

      2. MissBliss*

        At my last job I asked the “who would do best?” question and got the answer “people who fail here are expecting handholding.” I didn’t need handholding so I was like, okay, I’ll be fine! And… wasn’t fine. Common sense isn’t common, and different people will have different opinions about what is handholding or what is micromanaging.

  47. Rachel*

    Any one here work as a company secretary? It’s a career I’m considering (and I have an interview for a trainee post next week!) but I don’t know that much about the reality of it.

    What’s the day to day like? Is it a rewarding career? Just looking for any thoughts really!

  48. The Librarian (not the type from TNT)*

    Small business horror stories! Have any AAMers ever opened a brick-and-mortar business?

    I posted a couple of months ago about wanting to change careers to something outside of a library. I researched everyone’s suggestions and I’m really sorry to say, none of them sounded like they were for me. Now a crazy part of me wants to open my own record store and spend all day listening to and talking about music, my only honest passion in life — even though rationally (and as a business librarian!) I know full well that’s not what a typical day as a business owner is actually going to be like.

    I don’t think I’d ever actually do this, but I’d like the idea to leave my head all the same. So please, if you’ve ever ran a business and returned to the world where someone else is your boss, say something to scare me straight!

    2. Lena Clare*

      If the idea won’t leave your head though and you’ll always be wondering what if…
      Can you go to the local business network and see what business courses are available? Take one of those, look into finances etc. Maybe the practicalities of it will make you realise ‘nope’.

    3. LQ*

      Instead of having 1 boss you have a ton of them, and in a retail industry hundreds and hundreds of them. All the people who do or do not walk through your door get to decide each and every single day if you eat that night. And then you have the backdoor where the supplies come in and each and every single one of those people can make a decision that will make it so you don’t eat that night.

      (Don’t do it! It’s terrifying and exhausting and never the cool fun image you have in your head!)

      1. The Librarian (not the type from TNT)*

        Plus, I live in New York City, which is *extremely* inhospitable to small businesses.

      2. Lynne879*

        I have worked for a small, family-owned business and I completely agree.

        The whole “You’re your own boss!” mentality of owning your own business is a myth IMO. You’re not the boss, the customer is the boss.

        You also need to like interacting with people (that’s how you get repeat customers!), and you need a good sense of marketing (you can’t get customers in the store unless you market yourself well!). Having the money to start your business and having a good product (or service) to sell is the easy part.

        1. The Librarian (not the type from TNT)*

          I do like interacting with people, a lot. But everything else would I think not be so good. For one thing, I’m extremely risk-averse, so the thought of not being guaranteed a profit/a way to make a living would be so incredibly stressful. I just need to keep reminding myself of this.

          1. Lynne879*

            If the small business thing keeps nagging at your brain, you could always apply to jobs at small businesses to give you the taste of it. Maybe a manager type position so you can see all the nuts and bolts of how one operates and how much work really goes into it.

            But unless you have that drive, ambition and are willing to take risks I highly wouldn’t suggest starting a business.

          2. T. Boone Pickens*

            Repeat this line over and over to yourself, “But everything else would I think not be so good. For one thing, I’m extremely risk-averse, so the thought of not being guaranteed a profit/a way to make a living would be so incredibly stressful. I just need to keep reminding myself of this.”

            Risk-adverse and small business owner will not mix. You need to have a borderline delusional self-belief in yourself. Your hours will be long, your margins, tiny (especially in the record business!!) I also shudder to think of the inventory costs.

      3. Anon Muso*

        Or you can get a job in a record store and have only one boss, or a few. Those jobs are hard find and the pay tends to be low, but if you hang around record stores and talk to people, you can probably find something.

    4. NotMyRealName*

      That’s not what you’ll do. You’ll be dealing with invoices and scheduling and making the rent. You will work many hours and may or may not make a profit. It’s hard days and long hours and freaking out over how you will pay the bills.

    5. HarvestKaleSlaw*

      I have worked in a few small brick & mortar stores where you get to do everything – inventory, register, customer service, buyer, accounts… I actually loved it and dreamed for a long time about opening my own small retail store. I love seeing how the whole thing fits together, all the gears meshing. I still wish I had had the chance to do it.

      Random observations:
      You need a great design eye or a friend who has one who will work for you for cheap. The look of your space – your logo, your lighting, your shelves, your signage, your website – it will make or break you.
      Pay yourself a wage. People screw themselves trying to work for free to keep their business afloat long enough to turn a profit. If your business needs you to work for free, it’s not working out.
      Most business fail. I think you have to be at peace with that. Don’t count all the money you are going to have. Even if your store succeeds, you would probably make more money just working at a job.

    6. Jules the 3rd*

      Consider a non-brick n mortar store.

      Buy / sell on Amazon or Etsy or maybe some specialty music market place (googling ‘buy records online’ brought up ReverbLP for example). Build a blog / community for the talking part. Set aside a room in your house for your merchandise, with a really nice sound system where you sample the wares while packing the orders.

      This could be a way to test the waters, avoid (some) of the retail hassles, etc. and see if you know the market well enough to make money at it.

      2. Catwoman*

        My suggestion is similar to this. If you really crave face-to-face customer interaction, you could try getting a booth at a flea market on the weekends. This can definitely be done with an eBay-type online presence as well, especially if you’re interested in reselling used records.

        Because you are in NYC, my other suggestion would be to develop an expertise in a niche area, like a particular genre of music you are interested so that you can work to become the go-to place for that type of music.

        1. Anon Muso*

          Yes! Seconding the niche thing! That tends to work. Especially if you get to know the local bands in that niche. Offer local bands promotion and good deals on whole sale or consignment (whatever you do, but wholesale tends to work better for the artists). Then see if you can set up a table at some shows.

    7. Lora*

      Do some research and do the math.
      -How much does it cost to rent a storefront with varying amounts of traffic? What all is included in the rent?
      -How much would it cost to fit out the interior of such a space? You’ll need shelving, a cash register, what else?
      -How difficult is getting a business permit? Does it take a long time and a lot of meetings with city hall, or is it just filing a form?
      -How much can you realistically sell records for? How much would you pay for them? When would you go to purchase them, meet with vendors? How many records and tee shirts and whatnot would you need to sell every single week to cover rent and utilities?
      -How would you market / advertise? What is the market like where you live? Would you rely on foot traffic? Where would there be a good location that record-buyers would notice and wander in, and how many people wander in vs. actually buy things?
      -What hours would you have to keep?
      -Calculate a hypothetical EBITDA of the business
      etc etc.

      I used to want to open a bakery / cafe with a girlfriend who was good at doing all the fancy cake icing things: I would make pastries, breads, soups and salads, pretzel bread sandwiches, she would do fancy cakes and cupcakes, we would have a regular location and a food truck, and her kids would help out with the food truck service while I ran the cafe. She was a CFO at her job and tired of the daily grind too. We did the math on margins in the restaurant/food industry and quickly abandoned that idea. No amount of fancy $5 cupcakes, breakfast tacos served at commuter rail stations, or office-park lunch rushes was going to make the business workable for two women used to earning six figures and working only 9-hour days. And then girlfriend and I split up anyway.

    8. Art3mis*

      I did it “on the side” hoping to make enough money to be able to quit my FT job. It… did not go well. I really didn’t have enough capital to have a lot of stock on hand, which made my (online) store look empty. And the “wholesalers” sold stuff at more than I could buy it at retail. So I really couldn’t compete with that.
      My husband had a B&M store for a couple of years and did better than I did. Like others said it’s a lot of business-y stuff like invoices and placing orders and running around, etc. Eventually he got to the point where he could have an employee and it was a little less stressful.

    9. Anon Muso*

      I’m going to be a parade-rainer . . . partially. I have worked in record stores and I have friends who work in or own record stores. It’s a challenging business to make a profit in these days because fewer people are buying records than they used to. A lot of record stores really struggled to cover the cost of rent and everything else that it takes to stay open.

      However! There are solutions. You can sell something other than records to cover your costs. You can also have an online store. You can make it a mobile business, setting up at events, etc. Creativity goes a long way. There are so many possible ways to make it do-able. You could also make it a “hobby” financially speaking and have another source of income.

      Do you have a lot of friends in the music business? Do you have the energy to be really supportive to local bands? Do you go to a lot of shows? Do you also play? That stuff makes a huge difference. I’ve seen record stores struggle or thrive depending on how active the people are in the community. Those extroverted people who are always out at shows and conventions, who are really friendly to musicians who come in to hang out and talk – they seem to do a lot better than the more introverted types (although introverted owners can hire extroverts to work for them!).

      There’s so much to be said for doing what you love, though. I suggest setting up a record table at some music events that welcome vendors. Get a feel for it – how to attract people to your table, how to talk to people and what helps with sales. Then take it from there.

    10. Teapot Compliance*

      Ooooo I use to live in a city with a Pie & Record shop that was in a public library store front. They’ve moved store fronts like 3 times by now, but I’m sure that’s not crazy having to work out leases, move cooking equipment and fixtures, permit new kitchens, retain customers and work farmers markets in between. I’m sure that’s not hectic at all :)

    11. Bortus*

      Ran my own business (brick and mortor for most of the time) for over 20 years. Boy was I glad to get back to working for a regular paycheck, benefits and not having to wear every hat (salesperson, manager, accountant etc) . We wont even talk about the hours, that as a one person service company I used to put in. Now, I come to work, do my job and go home. I’m well paid and I leave any of the work sh*t at the door. yep. Couldnt be happier mostly. The ONLY thing I miss is having more flexible work hours since my current boss is not a fan of remote working but I can live with that 99% of the time.

    12. Kuododi*

      I started and ran my own counseling practice for about 5 ish years. It’s a nifty concept to “be my own boss.” Reality however is painfully different. I was able to pick my own clients, choose how I marketed and branded myself. However, I also had to deal with billing, client insurance issues, documentation, client intake paperwork, hustling insurance contracts, liability insurance for the practice and office, rent, taxes (still dealing with that nightmare approximately 8yrs later)
      attorney fees, community outreach etc, etc, etc…. I never got the practice to a financially sustainable size and spent approximately 20 hrs a wk taking contract assignments to help with $$ on the home front. All that, and I had to be available for client emergencies 24/7. Personally, a steady paycheck, 401K, predictable hours and a backup on call service was much more my speed. Good luck!!!

    13. NoLongerYoung*

      You need to google SBA template for startup business plan. Fill out the business plan. Fill out the spreadsheet (3 years projection). Where are the funds coming from? When is your break even?
      * Take an accounting class – you have keep your own books, and know what it means when there’s a negative number in Quickbooks. Keeping inventory involves special accounting / tracking (year end, you have to account for the inventory you are holding and there are tax implications).
      * take the seminars (SBA has them) on small business law. What if a customer sues you? What if a vendor sues you? Is that person an employee or a 1099 contractor?
      * Don’t forget the liability insurance (the trip and fall of an employee), workman’s comp, and health insurance for you.
      You will be keeping retail store hours all day, then at night – doing your accounting. And your ordering. And your inventory management. And cleaning. And your marketing. And your graphic design, business cards, and payroll. And taxes – payroll taxes, income taxes.
      * city / county licenses
      * fire alarms, burglar alarms – and the licenses to have them.
      I did all the operations – on the side – while sig other got to talk to the customers. It was a great life – for him. (I worked a full time job to pay the bills to keep the door open on his dream, for multiple businesses). I learned a lot.
      I’ve helped others with the SBA business plan, and I have helped launch one successful business. But it is not for the faint of heart, and the only one that worked was stepping into a new market niche that needed someone, not taking over a dying narrow niche.
      I really think having a full scale business plan is the best way to at least anticipate the known risks.

      1. Gloria*

        I owned my own business for a while. I loved it. Only, it failed because I just couldn’t make enough money. I worked my tail off. Tried everything I could think of plus all of the things various business people recommended. None of it worked. The following two years of desperately trying to find a job were the most terrifying thing I’ve ever lived through. I say this not to scare you off, because now that I’m working for someone else again, I haaaaaaaaate it and am desperately trying to come up with a business plan that will work. I just want to help you avoid a hard landing if things don’t work out. So two pieces of advice:

        1) Do as much research and pre-planning as you possibly can. Your city may offer business classes or recommend an organization that does. Take them. Take all of them.

        2) Know what your walk away line is. How broke do you have to be for how long to call it done? How many months behind do you have to be on your rent/mortgage? Are you willing to empty your 401(k) or no? Knowing what your “I’m done.” moment is will be really helpful. I didn’t have one, and I am still trying to clean up the damage from hanging on for too long almost 2 years later.

        If you do decide to do this, I wish you all the good fortune in the world. There is nothing as liberating as being your own boss.

  49. Jellyfish*

    I’m sure this has been asked and answered before, but I couldn’t find it in the archives. I have a final interview coming up, and I’ve noticed a couple things that might have completely reasonable explanations, but might be red flags.

    For example, the admin who’s been helping me set up all the travel logistics has emailed me well after traditional work hours a couple times. This place has long hours, so maybe she is scheduled in the evenings or works from home with odd hours sometimes. Or maybe that’s a sign that this place isn’t great with work/life balance and expects lots of performative presenteeism.

    What kinds of questions could I ask to probe about workplace culture and hours without looking like I only care about getting paid and getting out?
    Thank you!

    1. Worker1*

      You could ask:

      Describe a typical week for someone who takes this position.

      How would you define the culture here? Teamwork-oriented, laid-back or competitive?

    2. Llama Wrangler*

      What time does this role normally come in to work and leave for the day?
      What are the busiest times of year, and what are those times like?
      What kind of person fits in well here and what type of person isn’t a strong fit?
      If you could change one thing about the culture here, what would it be?
      What do you wish you knew before starting work here?

      I wouldn’t ask all of these in the final interview, of course. My current job, where I had major concerns about culture, I asked most of them in a follow-up phone call with the hiring manager after being offered the position. In other jobs, I’ve asked them to the person leaving the role, or someone else I knew at the company.

      2. SecondChoice*

        These are *fantastic* questions! I’m actively interviewing, and I am writing these down for use going forward – love them.

    3. HarvestKaleSlaw*

      Can I ask the region and the industry? That will tell a lot about the norms.

      1. Jellyfish*

        Higher education in the northeastern US.
        Academia has lots of issues with balance and burn out as it is. I’m not brand new to the field, and I’m good at holding my boundaries, but I don’t want to accept a new job that’s even worse than the norm on these things.

        1. HarvestKaleSlaw*

          Yeah – no, it’s weird for an admin to be working that late in higher ed. It might just be a disorganized admin, though.

        2. OxfordComma*

          I concur with the advice to ask about typical days, hours, etc.

          I have a bad habit of answering my email when I see it come in and sometimes when I can’t sleep…It’s only later that I realize I was answering email at 3AM. Maybe it’s something like that?

        3. Hi there*

          Is it a fairly high-ranking position? At my higher ed employer I have noticed that the Dean’s assistant sometimes sends emails into the evening.

          1. Also in HE*

            Our most senior admin often does evening emails, because she’s not interrupted then, but balances it by leaving early when the weather’s good to walk her dog…

        4. That Girl From Quinn's House*

          Is it possible she’s corresponding just with you in the evening, knowing you’re at work and may not be available to answer her?

  50. Justin*

    So I’m technically an educational consultant on a team of 20 such folks (we have different roles, but still).

    What do you all do if you have clients you need to produce work for that you don’t respect?

    We have just the one client, a gov’t agency, but the agency has several departments. Each department has different leadership plus an overall director of the whole agency.

    And the middle managers of each department, with whom we work most directly, are, sadly, both mean and incompetent. They treat their staff like children and engage in power plays and petty nonsense constantly. And ultimately, being a gov’t agency, they’re supposed to be helping people, so I suspect they believe they’re a force for good.

    So I’m looking for a new job (it’s been 2.5 years, I’ve been promoted as far as I’m going to go anyway).

    But in the mean time, since those managers are whom we need to present our projects to (before we teach their employees they mistreat), how do you deal with months of work for people you don’t respect? What can you do to take pride in your time and effort when it won’t be appreciated by clients?

    Our leadership on our own team is kind and I mostly enjoy my team and supervisors. But ultimately, this work needs to be approved of by these folks, and that makes it harder.

    I tell myself just to get through the approval part of the project because teaching the workers is valuable and usually fun. But my job is still mostly creating materials that these folks must approve. And when I compare my work for school – where I’m deeply passionate – to this, it’s a whole lot better.

    Thoughts?

    1. Reba*

      Ugh, I can imagine how frustrating that is. People with small amounts of power who really like to flex it!

      Can you try to frame it in your mind as your trainees are your clients, their bosses are just (“just,” I know) gatekeepers or obstacles you have to cross? I realize I’m restating your last paragraph, but trying to do so without evoking emotion, or putting the emotion towards the trainees and not the bosses, they are just objects.

      For me the “passion” question is never really that helpful in getting perspective. Of course you’re passionate about schoolwork, which you are choosing to do and that you are (at least mostly) in control of! Of course you’re not passionate about dumb bureaucratic approvals processes!

      Another difference between schoolwork and work work that might help balance your thinking: the work work has a real impact on the individuals you train, which in turn impacts their work, their stakeholders, etc. etc. etc.

      1. Justin*

        Yeah that’s true. I mention the schoolwork mostly in that I feel bad I’m better at it, but of course I get to choose most of it so there’s an intrinstic motivation aspect.

        Yeah, the trainees are the people I care about. And I try to focus on them. The managers meddle in ways that don’t help the workers – and then don’t support the workers by reinforcing the training afterwards, so it all feels sort of hopeless. But I’m finally about to debut a class after seven months of work, and it’s usually all worth it once we get into the room, finally.

  51. EA Anon*

    How should I address the issue of my boss smelling bad. She is on the keto diet. Has been for a while now. Due the diet she has horrible breath and awful body ordor. It is unbearable. I’m an EA and my desk is in the waiting room outside of her office. The waiting area and his office stink whenever she is around. I’m not allowed to keep the door to the waiting room open because all the other executives on the floor say they don’t want the smell in the hallway. We have a washroom in the waiting room but it smells so bad whenever my boss uses it. I end up having to go to another floor because all the bathrooms on our floor are in other waiting rooms or are private. If anyone mentions the smell to my boss she says they are overreacting or that she doesn’t smell. But she does. She told me she knows the keto diet does that but she doesn’t notice any smell. How cab I address this with her? I have no idea and I am sick of the smell but she doesn’t listen when anyone brings it up. She wasn’t like this before she started eating keto. Her boss is the CFO so I don’t know if going to him is something I can do. How should I address the issue of the smell?

    1. Detective Amy Santiago*

      If the other execs are having issues with this, it sounds like something the CFO needs to be addressing. Can you ask the execs for advice on how to best address it with him?

      1. EA Anon*

        I could try that. Unfortunately I don’t know any of them and they don’t interact with other assistants besides their own. I’m afraid none of them will talk to me because they don’t know me and because I’m associated with my boss, who they don’t like due to the smell issue.

        1. AvonLady Barksdale*

          Do you interact with their EAs? This sounds like a situation tailor made for the EA network. At the very least, you can have one of their EAs introduce you to them.

          How do you know they (the execs) don’t like the smell? Do they say things directly to you? Or do other people tell you? Either one of those situations can provide you with an opening to discuss it.

          1. EA Anon*

            I do interact with the Was sometimes. But almost all my work interaction is done with the people who report to my boss. She is the most senior of all the executives here and has a direct line to the CFO so lots of people are intimidated by her. I could try seeing if any of the other EAs would introduce me to their executives. They come and close the door anytime it is open because the smell is so bad.

            1. Detective Amy Santiago*

              Have the execs told you that is what they’re doing or have you heard this from their EAs or some other way?

        2. fposte*

          It’s highly unlikely that they’re going to refuse to talk to you because your boss smells bad, but there may be other reasons. However, I’m a little confused about something–does that mean that you’ve only heard from your boss that other people are complaining, not from those other people? Because if you’ve heard from other people, those are people you can raise the issue with.

          Depending on the situation, you might be able to raise it with the CFO, but you really can’t make it a “Make Jane smell better” meeting; it’s a “there’s an odor problem here and I’m hoping for help in solving it” meeting. If you have information about how it’s affecting the workflow, that’s relevant to the discussion and should be included, because that’s what really matters. However, as I note below, the solutions may be about dealing with the smell rather than changing Jane.

    2. Another Sarah*

      The keto diet doesn’t make people who follow it smell bad. That is total misinformation that detractors of the keto diet use to discredit it. I’m not saying she doesn’t have a problem with body order or in the bathroom but those bad habits have nothing to do with keto. Don’t bring up the diet when talking about the ordor problem.

      1. Not All*

        hahahahahhahahahahahahhaha

        You’re funny.

        The keto diet as implemented by the average person doesn’t make every single person on it stink…but it sure does make a big chunk of people develop horrible body odors.

        1. Fortitude Jones*

          Yeah, I had coworkers on it, and yes, they stunk. But luckily, I didn’t sit close enough to them to really smell it.

    3. fposte*

      I’ll add an option that you don’t seem to have considered: accepting the smell won’t change. From your description, this isn’t something a quick mint will solve, and I’m not sure what she’d be able to do that would solve a problem of the magnitude you describe. So what would you like to have happen if the smell stays the same? Would a fan for the waiting room and some Poo-pourri for the bathroom be useful?

    4. Not All*

      I agree that trying to get the other execs to raise it to the next level is probably the best bet but if you aren’t comfortable with that option, can you get a desktop HEPA filter? I’ve used them in a few different places including for a coworker who smelled like a rancid ashtray and the one who thought you were supposed to bath in perfume. A good one can run over $100 though so that may not be financially reasonable. Maybe you could ask your boss to pay for it out of work funds as a gesture towards the other execs?

    5. Mediamaven*

      I’m not sure you can but I commiserate with you. I have had employees on Keto and the smell is really terrible. If I walk into a closed office or conference room that they’ve been in it hits you in the face. It something I can deal with but if it was as bad as you describe I’m not sure how I would handle it. On a side note, I have an employee right doing it and the food she cooks literally smells like something in a diaper. It permeates the entire office and makes me gag. She gets very defensive when I complain about the smell and acts like I’m an a-hole. I’ve been trying to figure out how to message it – etiquette around stinky food is a common issue in offices and we need to compromise.

      1. valentine*

        You can stop allowing it at any time and I hope you will, especially if anyone else is suffering.

        EA Anon: You may be the missing piece. What if you say you agree with the people who have complained and say it’s bad enough you’ve been using a different bathroom to avoid it? If you don’t have HR, go to the CFO, but I would only do that as an escalation. I would also find a way to stop the door closing or I’d keep opening it. Your colleagues don’t get to sacrifice you to the stench.

    6. Not A Manager*

      If she wouldn’t hear this message from her peers, she’s REALLY not going to hear it from you. And, as someone mentioned above, even if she did internalize the message (maybe after hearing from the CFO), what would she do about it other than going off her diet?

      I think this is literally a case of “your boss stinks and isn’t going to change.” You can try HEPA filters and Vics Vaporub under your nose, but otherwise you probably need to live with it or look for a change.

      This is really tough. Sorry you’re dealing with it.

    8. New Job So Much Better*

      Keto doesn’t make everyone smell, especially not that bad. She may have other health issues.

      1. Not All*

        It does however make a LOT of people absolutely reek. I had to change hair salons when the gal who used to cut my hair went on it. Not just stylists…salons…because the entire place stunk even over all the ‘product’ smells. And yes, I 100% know that was the cause…the first time I went after she started I was assuming she had personal issues going on & just hadn’t showered for like a week…right up until she started talking about how happy she was with the weight she was losing on keto.

  52. NewKicks*

    An old coworker asked me to be a reference for her, which I agreed to do because she’s a great person and I’d love to help her. My only problems are I have phone anxiety and get anxious about things I’ve never done before (like being a reference!) so I’ve been seriously stressed out waiting for the reference call for the past week.

    I wrote down four reasons why she was a great teammate and good at our old job to try to prepare so I don’t screw this up by blanking out of nervousness. I also googled what kind of questions references get asked, but most were very specific questions I don’t have an answer to (what skills does she need to work on, what kind of work environment would she thrive in, what is her greatest accomplishment, what new skills did she learn, etc.). I feel like those were more supervisor oriented questions.

    What kind of reference questions should I expect as a coworker? How can I prepare so I don’t screw up?

    1. Jellyfish*

      Writing your reasons down seems like a great idea, and if you don’t have an answer to a specific question, it’s okay to say so.

      Could your old coworker send you her resume, or at least the part relevant to her work with you? That way, you’ll know what she’s told potential new jobs, what kind of language she used, etc. If she’s mentioned a specific project or something, you could talk about how she did a great job on that.

      Be nice, be honest, be brief. If the caller wants more detail, they can ask. Most likely, they’re just confirming their own impressions of her and double checking to be sure she didn’t lie on her resume.

    2. Snarktini*

      Did she tell you why she picked you or what she’d like you to focus on? It’s always a good idea to give references an idea about what traits/accomplishments to talk about to help land a particular job — if she hasn’t done that, you can ask her! Maybe she can provide some ideas that will expand what you have and spark ways to answer their questions more easily.

      Some questions can be adapted. If you’re asked what kind of environment they thrive in, consider what made her successful in the environment you had. Perhaps you saw her grow in some significant way even if you didn’t supervise her skills. And if you can’t answer a question, that’s ok!

      Jellyfish’s advice to be brief is good. Better to make one good point and stop than weaken the case with extra stuff. (I’m a rambler, so I know whereof I speak.)

  53. JustaTech*

    Absurd story of the week:

    Yesterday I had to write a memo for an internal audit saying that I, JustaTech, had trained JustaTech in the correct use of form X (which is to print it out and write on it rather than using an electronic version).

    At least I only had to sign it once, rather than twice as trainer and trainee!

      1. irene adler*

        Yep!
        Auditor: As a follow-up to this memo, who determined that JustaTech has the qualifications to properly train JustaTech in form X completion? Please produce training records to justify this.

    2. Quiet Observer*

      Hahaha! This reminds me of the time I had to give myself an unannounced urine/drug test. Fun times.

  54. Muriel Charles*

    Email Etiquette:

    My background hasn’t prepared me well for professional communication. I’m drafting a simple notice to clients that we need our checks made out to a new name. What should I put in the subject line? I don’t want to sound demanding and nobody likes thinking about writing checks.

    Here’s what I was thinking:

    “[Subject line needs help]

    Please note that checks preciously made out to [old name] should now be made payable to [new company name]. Feel free to contact us at [contact info] with any questions. Thank you for choosing [company] for your [industry] needs.”

    1. HarvestKaleSlaw*

      Honestly, this one doesn’t matter because in my experience, your first seven emails on this subject will be ignored by half your clients. You are going to wind up having to make a whole lot of phone calls to their AP people anyway.

      It’s annoying, but it does take some of the pressure off! For a subject, why not: OldTeapots is now NewTeapots? It gets the people who only read the subject headers.

      You might want to throw in a line, depending on your industry, to say something like: “Our product line and billing terms will remain the same.”

      1. valentine*

        subject: Checks payable name now Telluride

        In the body, switch the order so Telluride is first, so you’re saying start using Telluride; stop using Acme.

    2. Angry Scientist*

      You could just put anything that’s clear and concise. I would just say “Company Name Change.” It gets across what you’re trying to say. Also, I know it’s a typo, but “preciously” might sound awkward in a work email, haha!

    3. RandomU...*

      Action Needed: Notice of Name Change

      Greetings;

      Effective immediately all checks remitted to Spacely Space Sprockets. will need to be made payable to Spacely Space Sprockets. Checks made out Cogswell Cogs will no longer be accepted. Please update your records to reflect this change to avoid delays and need to reissue checks in the future.

      Please feel free to contact us with any questions you may have about this change at 867-5309 or George.Jetson@SSS.com.

      We look forward to serving you in the future and thank you for choosing Spacely Space Sprockets for your sprocket needs.

      Regards,
      George

    4. Jules the 3rd*

      We just had a vendor do this. Subject line ‘Old Company Name changing to New Company Name’ worked pretty well. The body needs to include full legal names, both old and new, and any aliases, and should start with a sentence of ‘OldCo is changing its name to New Company Name LLC, also called NewCo’.

    5. dealing with dragons*

      If it helps any I feel the same way – I just tell people I was raised feral

    6. TheFacelessOldWomanWhoSecretlyLivesinYour House*

      If you also email the company’s new W-9 , that’s a huge help.

  55. HarvestKaleSlaw*

    How do people deal with work anxieties hanging over their head all weekend? Most of my office is out today, and Monday is a holiday. When I return on Tuesday, I am going to have to have several very unpleasant conversations – one with a yeller, which I hate – to sort out a supplier conflict of interest. I have a lot of shame and guilt too, because I made the situation far worse by soft-pedaling and avoiding conversations with the suppliers, when my boss warned me not to. No matter how I play it, we will be screwing over one supplier and fraying the relationship with the one we keep. I’m (justly) going to come off like either a conniving jerk or a flake.

    There is nothing I can do until Tuesday, but I want to enjoy the long weekend with my family. How do other people compartmentalize? I already know I’m going to be up all night Sunday worrying, same as I was last Sunday.

    1. Lena Clare*

      Oh I can relate!

      Part of it is anxiety. I’ve been like this for a while so have just gone on antidepressants. I’ve not been on them for years and I didn’t want to take them now but I decided I couldn’t manage the way I was.

      The only other thing that has ever helped me with the constant thoughts is mindfulness meditation.
      Danny Penman on YouTube is very good.

      Other than that, there might be other techniques that help you such as writing things down. Not just even in a ‘list of things to do’ way but in a ‘journaling’ way.

      Hope it doesn’t spoil your weekend.

      1. Lily Rowan*

        I was going to suggest writing things down, too — your side of the story, talking points, etc. Because when I’m lying in bed worrying about work conversations, I’m usually trying to decide exactly how to say certain things. But if I had written it down ahead of time, that might help!

        1. valentine*

          You’re borrowing trouble. Pretend Tuesday is your first astronaut flight. This is your last weekend home and you’re going to make the most of it.

    2. Quiet Observer*

      Sounds like you’ve reflected on the situation and your role in it and now you’re ruminating endlessly on how bad this could go on Tuesday.

      Can you take a step back to look at what you have learned? By having a plan for what you will do differently going forward, I think you might feel more in control of the situation.

      Also, being straightforward with your coworkers about the situation, your role, and your recognition of the need to change something, they may be more flexible with you (or not depending on their level of crazy). But by being transparent and sharing your thoughts on a plan, they may be more open/forgiving. Could you also seek their input on ways to approach these scenarios in the future to avoid these problems? Or is that too much?

  56. ThatGirl*

    No word on my internal interview yet (it was back on May 14) but I know that our HR can move a little slowly and that they may have had other interviews since then, so I’m patient. I do think I’ll check in with the HR rep next week if I don’t hear anything.

    1. Angry Scientist*

      Are you me? I’m waiting for word on an internal interview too, and it was also on the 14th! So strange! Good luck!

      1. ThatGirl*

        My field is not science-related at all but that’s funny, thank you and good luck to you too!

  57. Caterpie*

    Resume question! Is it important to denote that you only spent a year or two on something because of term limits? If so, how would this best be done?

    I’m still in grad school so a lot of the things on my resume will be positions I’ve held on certain committees and councils (nearly all of which have term limits of 1-2 years at my school). I know having a lot of short term jobs can appear to be a red flag on resumes so I’d just like to head this off. Am I safe because these are committees within my “job” or should I include a phrase about serving the max term? Thanks!

    1. Dragoning*

      I think, in the context of school councils, especially when it’s still seen as “standard” to be in school four years (regardless of reality), and most freshman certainly aren’t joining up–that this seems realistic and normal and not likely to get a side-eye.

    2. HarvestKaleSlaw*

      I did this with bullet points under an overall grad-student “job”:

      Graduate Fellow, Eastern Nebraska Jesus Technical College, 1874-1997
      -Committee on Assessment of Institutional Assessment Needs, 1991-1993
      -Advancement of Llamas in Higher Education Committee, 1897-1899
      -Undergraduate Yak Herding Major Exploratory Committee, 1923-1924

    3. fposte*

      I wouldn’t worry about the max term thing at all; these aren’t jobs and won’t be presenting as jobs. But unless by resume you really mean CV, I’d consider collapsing them all into a shorter section anyway. “Student committees: Teapots Licensing Association, Secretary; Llama Eradication Task Force; Professors Have No Time For Us Council, Official Liaison.” Most such committees really don’t carry that much weight to a hiring manager, so it’s worth thinking about whether they’re earning their space.

      1. Caterpie*

        I’m definitely going to transition out of academia after grad school so I think they carry a bit more weight than technical skills like “I can do a PCR (somewhat reliably)”. I have them in a leadership and service section at the end, and I’ve been the lead or student rep in an otherwise faculty-only committee on most of them. But you’re right, in internship and mock interviews they dont come up in conversation all that often so maybe I should condense them. Thanks!

        1. fposte*

          It really is a balance question that depends on the specific committees, your field, and the other stuff on your resume, but sometimes people forget that the possibility to condense exists, so I thought I’d mention it.

  58. Dragoning*

    Just random grumpiness–grandboss scheduled a department meeting that will likely have little-to-no relevance to me from 12:30pm-1:30pm, which is…exactly my lunch hour.

    Nothing to be done about it, jsut gahhh, on the Friday before a holiday, too?

    1. Fortitude Jones*

      Ugh, that sucks. Can you take lunch either before or after the meeting? My preference would be to do it before so it doesn’t throw my system completely out of whack.

      1. Dragoning*

        Eating lunch now. Having to slice the break in half. Half before, half after.

        I’m hourly, so they do have to give me lunch.

        1. Fortitude Jones*

          Oh okay. Well, at least you get to eat. I wish people would be more cognizant of that kind of thing, especially when they have hourly employees.

    3. RandomU...*

      I just had a late addition meeting for a problem that is annoying me and something I don’t think is my problem to fix.

      Basically unreasonable customer demands and a project manager not willing or able to manage their customer. Grrrrr…. But hey they’re ready to escalate to the CEO. So that’s fun.

      Do you get to move your lunch?

    4. JustaTech*

      I had someone do that to me this week, someone who has no excuse of time zones (which is usually how this happens). I just brought my lunch to the meeting and put the phone on mute so they wouldn’t hear my chewing. The other people in the room with me were also eating their lunches so it wasn’t just me.

      One time a lunch meeting came up as an emergency and I ate a liverwurst and onion sandwich sitting between my boss and my boss’s boss.

      1. Dragoning*

        Nope, this was an in-person meeting in a physical room and everything. We’re all on the same timezone.

        Siiiiiiigh.

        A couple coworkers brought lunches and one spent the entire thing eating an apple.

  59. Angry Scientist*

    Hi everyone,
    So I have an awful co-worker, which is neither here nor there, but she seems to be really…insensitive to everything. She has made me cry on numerous occasions, making fun of me, criticizing my work, etc., and when I’ve told my managers they just say “Oh! That’s just how she is!” She’s apparently been talked to before about it and everyone is just okay with the fact that this is just how she is. My mom recently passed away (like, in January) and I found something that made me think of her, and I started to cry. I wasn’t sobbing, I wasn’t trying to draw any attention to myself, but she said “did I make you cry, again?” to which I responded “no, I just miss my mom.” I shouldn’t have said it, but I did, and she answered me with “wow. you’re not the only one who’s ever lost a parent, you know.” I seriously almost quit my job and walked out on the spot. She isn’t my manager. Anyone have any advice?

    1. Old School Marm*

      Sounds like your coworker is either: 1. A total bitch or 2. Has trouble navigating things socially. Giving her the benefit of the doubt with #2, I’d give her direct feedback when she says something ugly. For instance, the thing about your mom, you could answer with, “that was really hurtful.” If she brushes that off, she’s a bitch. If she seems shocked, definitely #2.

    2. Rusty Shackelford*

      If they are willing to ignore her behavior, does that mean they won’t care what you say to her either? Because I think “Wow, what a rude thing for you to say to me” and then walking away would be a good response to some of these situations.

    3. Moray*

      Wow, she sounds genuinely cruel. Tell her “I don’t want to talk about anything personal with you.” And then truly don’t ever talk about anything personal with her. She’s not nice, so you don’t have to be nice.

      You can lean on cold sarcasm, because she doesn’t deserve politeness and (small upside) won’t have any capital to complain about you.
      “Okay, that was very constructive, thanks.”
      “You definitely had to say that, of course there was no possible way you could keep that unnecessary insult to yourself.”
      “Sure. Yup. There was no way you could have communicated that without being a nightmare.”
      “Cruel personal attacks are why everyone likes you so much.”
      “Well-adjusted people are definitely into making coworkers cry.”

      2. Jules the 3rd*

        The problem with sarcasm is that it doesn’t actually solve the problem.

        The direct ‘wow, that was rude and hurtful’ is better.

        But yeah, put her on an information diet. Give her pleasant but vague answers unless she has an actual work-related need to know. For the last cry (and I am so sorry about your mom): “No. Nothing to do with work.” (soft voiced, not defensive). For ‘how was your weekend?’: “Fine! How was yours?” with a smile.

        Keep her talking about herself, kinda tune her out, do NOT try to reciprocate. Remind yourself that anything you share with her will be a weapon for her to turn against you. Give her only pillows. Soft fluffy pillows.

      3. Duchess Honeybadger*

        I normally don’t recommend taking the low road. I call it Eating the Whole Pizza: it feels good in the moment, but an hour later I’m filled with heartburn and regret.

        However, in this case, I’d burn that pizza to the ground. I love Moray’s suggested scripts, and would use any of them. Since it’s not normally like you, the shock and awe factor might shut that raging glassbowl right up.
        I’m sorry about your mom. I lost mine three years ago and there are still things that make me tear up. This woman can take a flying suck at a hoot owl. You eat that pizza. Eat it good.

        1. Kuododi*

          “… flying suck at a hoot owl…”. That one is a winner!!! ;). Have you copyrighted that expression or may I borrow it for those particular moments in life? I’m having minor flashbacks to the ” at least you don’t have cancer or an eating disorder” doofus. I simply echo everyone else’s good feedback. People in this situation get their ya-yas off stirring emotional soup. The more she can be cut off at the knees verbally speaking, the faster she will wither and loose motivation to continue. (Captain Awkward would be my go-to for positive scripts to aid in addressing the problem PRN). Have a great weekend.

    4. Lena Clare*

      What a vituperative bitch.

      The fact she is awful IS relevant because she is not being professional with you. In fact, I’d say it sounds like bullying. I bet this happens when no one else is around, right?
      Talk to the management again about her being critical of your work and how her behaviour is affecting your performance, then ask them what the next step is.
      Document everything in writing. Speak to your employee assistance programme. Do they have counselling available? Take it if they do! This happened to me and it was very helpful.

      For each interaction be direct and then remove yourself from the conversation physically. You want to indicate with your words, tone of voice, facial expression, and body language that her appalling behaviour is NOT ok and you are NOT accepting it. It is tempting to be sarcastic but I wouldn’t be passive-aggressive about it with her.

      When she is critical, “Mmm, Miranda actually said this is good so I am going to keep on doing it this way.” Turn away and put headphones on, or walk away etc.
      When she is horrible, any variation of “what a nasty thing to say, you must be really hurting inside to say something like that” then walk away. Or “What a nasty thing to say, why did you say that?” and you can wait for her answer if you want. Followed by “huh” to whatever she says and then end the conversation using physical means like barrier, walking away, headphones and turning away etc.
      If she tries to persist or follows you to continue the conversation, fact followed by removal to somewhere where there are other people.
      Look for another job in the meantime.

      And I am really sorry about your mom. Thinking of you and sending you virtual hugs if you want them.

    5. Not Me*

      Can you be more direct with your managers about how her horrible behavior is impacting you? “I understand she’s been talked to before about the rudeness and unprofessional comments. The way she speaks to people and the things she says are negatively impacting the work environment.”

      1. irene adler*

        We have our own bully who gets away with things like this.
        Unfortunately, management finds that he has value to the company, so while they are sympathetic, they won’t do a thing to curtail the behavior.
        So try the more direct suggestion first. But if management still won’t do anything, might be time to rethink the future in this job.

      2. Auntie Social*

        And quote the incidents, starting with the “mom” comment. Working well with others is part of every employee’s job—why does she think it’s not part of hers?

    6. irene adler*

      I’m so sorry about your losing your Mom. Certainly one of those times when compassion is called for.

    7. Lilysparrow*

      Just don’t speak to her at all unless it’s absolutely necessary to complete a work task.

      If she comes up to you to criticize your work or make nasty comments, tell her, “I have nothing to say to you,” or “That’s none of your concern.”

      Or just don’t answer at all. Spend some time practicing a dead-eye stare. It can be surprisingly effective.

  60. Been There*

    Thoughts on tank tops at work? (The kind with thick 1″ or better straps, not those flimsy spaghetti strap tops)

    Context: I work in a casual dress code office where I usually wear silk blouses with jeans, but with the warm weather coming, I tend to default towards tank tops (with 1″ or larger straps) and a sweater. It can get hot in my office though, and sometimes I remove my sweater or jacket. The manager of my department (but not my manager) made a comment once about bare shoulders being unprofessional (during an unrelated conversation), but I’ve also seen people walking around in blank cotton T-shirts that I would consider more unprofessional than a tank top.

    Just want to get other opinions on the subject :)

    1. Dragoning*

      Depends on the office. I’d likely get away with them in mine, but my office is so cold I’m almost always wearing something over the sleevelessness until I walk outside.

    2. AnotherAlison*

      A strict poly-cotton blend tank top would be a no for me. Now, if you had a fancier rayon top with similar straps, I would be okay with it in the office you describe. Seems like a casual material + a very casual style is too casual. The cotton t-shirt is casual, but to me, it’s ok because it checks the box for covering your shoulders, chest, and pits more. We have casual Fridays, and I will sometimes wear a plain t-shirt, but it’s a women’s cut with a scoop or v-neck. I wouldn’t wear a looser fit crew neck. I have a fine line for myself, lol.

    3. Llama Wrangler*

      It definitely depends on office, but my current office says explicitly nothing sleeveless, and in previous positions I would not wear anything that covered less than my full shoulder (except for under a sweater). You might want to look into getting some short sleeved/cap-sleeved or sheer/light-weight sweaters if your office is over heated–that’s been my solution.

    4. Washi*

      I would be wary of it if a higher up has expressed feelings about bare shoulders being unprofessional.

      That said, despite the fact that DC tends to be a bit more buttoned up in terms of dress, it’s really common to see bare shoulders because it’s so hot! I think if you’re tucking a sleeveless blouse into professional skirts and pants, there’s nothing overly casual about that and I do it all the time. If you’re thinking of wearing one of those tshirt tanks over jeans, that would read as a little too casual for most business-casual offices that I’ve been in.

      1. Jules the 3rd*

        +1

        I live in the US South, work in a large company, and I have a lot of cap sleeves for hot weather. I do not do sleeveless except under other things. The small amount of additional material does not affect my comfort, but is a significantly more professional look.

        And if someone higher up in the office has said ‘sleeveless is unprofessional’ then that really does mean something. They’ve given you a guideline for that office’s expectations.

    5. No Tribble At All*

      I live in sleeveless tops. Random other manager can deal with the scandalous shoulders (or can turn down the temperature).

    6. Murphy*

      I’m wearing one right now. Honestly I tend not to, but when it’s summer in the southeast US and you have to go outside, some allowances have to be made.

    7. Amtelope*

      Totally depends on the office, I think? Our office is business casual-to-casual, and I will take my sweater or jacket off at my desk if I’m wearing a tank top, but put it back on if I’m walking around the building.

    8. CheeryO*

      Regular tank tops read extremely casual to me, unfortunately. I think a plain cotton t-shirt is a significant step up from a tank top, since it covers your shoulders and more of your chest and is likely less form-fitting. If you can find more polished sleeveless tops, especially ones that cover a little more of the top of your shoulder, I think that’s a good middle ground.

    9. Workerbee*

      I guess it depends on how much investment that manager has in your employment well-being, you know?

      For example, our office is casual, and so we have people wearing extremely casual capris, t-shirts, flip-flops, etc. Our official dress code only says not to wear tight yoga pants. Yet the manager of an employee who came in wearing a nice, sleeveless dress (thicker than spaghetti straps) insisted that she cover up. Meanwhile, I’ve worn the same kind of thing and my boss has never said anything.

      I admit that I don’t understand why bare shoulders=unprofessional, but it does seem to come down to individual management decrees versus HR rules, sometimes.

    10. Turtles All The Way Down*

      I work in a casual environment too, and for me sleeveless seems fine, but I wouldn’t wear a tank top. I buy a lot of shirts from LOFT and any of their sleeveless blouses or shells seem to be fine in my office because they’re swingy (not clingy), higher necked, and cover my bra. I don’t think I’d wear a tight scoop neck cotton tank top a la Old Navy, but not because of the shoulders, but because it’s tight and might put the boobies on too much display. Plus I don’t think cotton stretch looks particularly professional.

    11. Policy Wonk*

      Tank top alone is probably OK at my desk but not for meetings. There I will toss a lightweight blouse over the tank top. Serves the same purpose as the sweater, but doesn’t get too hot.

    12. Karo*

      My personal rule is that straps should cover the entire top of your shoulder, and the tank top should be of a material that’s more “professional” than cotton. That said, it’s definitely a know-your-office thing. Do you have reason to believe that this manager is representative of others in the company? Is it someone you need or want to impress?

    13. AcademiaNut*

      I live in a casual office with hot humid weather (and the AC is limited to 25 C (77 F) by law). I generally avoid straight up tank tops, as they tend to be too form fitting on me, but I wear a lot of cap sleeve tunic style tops which are a good balance of comfortable and not too revealing.

  61. MountRushmore*

    My employer recently undertook a full HR review and employees were encouraged to engage with the process, and provide feedback on the outcomes. Every employee benefitted from a significant raise, plus substantial increases in PTO. The methodology behind who got what etc. stands up to scrutiny, and the process was handled confidentially with each employee in terms of their respective raises. (I should note I’m middle management so also an employee!).

    Despite the marked improvements in pay and benefits we’ve been left with an office full of disgruntled employees! There are a couple of key agitators who are stirring it, but it seems to be permeating the whole office. The general consensus is that although the raises etc. were significant, they weren’t significant *enough*. I should mention we weren’t underpaid or treated badly before, in industry standards or lived experience. I’ve listened to their gripes (they’re not gripes I share – I’m impressed with the raises and benefits increases everyone received and I didn’t benefit disproportionately from them) – but honestly I’m so tired of it. Is there a way to shut this down before it destroys us from the inside? Top level management are growing tired of it too and it feels like it’ll never end.

    1. Troutwaxer*

      On one hand, nobody should be complaining about an increase in PTO and a significant raise.

      On the other hand, I might question the degree to which the company understands employee finances. Salaries have definitely not kept up with inflation (and the inflation indexes are in need of serious work, as they don’t track some important issues.) So a “significant” raise might legitimately look like “just not getting it” to some reasonable fraction of your office, particularly depending on the profit picture at your company.

      On the gripping hand, if your office is blowing up over this, something is seriously wrong, and you may need to shut the “agitators” down so you can deal with it.

    2. NW Mossy*

      Part of what may help is to ask them questions about their gripes. So they don’t feel like it’s enough – why? They may have misunderstandings about how the changes were decided, a distorted sense of what a competitive compensation package looks like in your industry/location, or be largely in the dark about the state of the company’s finances. When people don’t understand and don’t ask questions, that’s when they start to write in these kinds of narratives where management becomes the opposition. Clearing up that confusion puts the decisions in context and helps defang the griping.

      I’m going through a bit of this right now because my company’s had to get really tight on expenses and headcount over the last couple of years because the market rate for our services has been racheting down really fast. It’s hard for people to hear that their merit raises are small and likely to remain so for the foreseeable future, but when they understand that their smallness is much more a function of the industry landscape than it is a judgment of their individual character, some of the animus starts to dissipate.

      1. MountRushmore*

        It seems to be an issue of feeling that they’re worth more than the Company gave. Profits wise we’re underperforming (market conditions, not employees’ fault) which makes me wonder if there’s something deeper going on for them. But when pressed they always bring it back to dollar figures and what they’re “worth” in their opinion. At industry level our salaries are decent and when combined with the higher PTO, good healthcare etc. leaves me a bit flummoxed about what the issue really is. Generally it’s a low-stress environment and up to now I would have said our Dept was functioning really well and was happy. Opening the conversation on salary seems to have started a landslide.

  62. AnonyMs.*

    What would you do if you found out that someone who shares your title and, presumably, your responsibilities, doesn’t have knowledge you consider to be basic? Someone approached me this week with an assignment of sorts, and when I responded that I really didn’t have time and that it’s something I would usually do myself on my own projects, they kind of panicked. It’s something as simple as creating slides in PowerPoint. So I relented and did it, and included a note that when revisions are made, be sure to change the slides, etc.

    But I’m irritated. I’m annoyed that someone at my level, who is not new to the role or the workforce, approached me to do something that I find really simple because they haven’t learned how to do it themselves. My response was to assume they knew what to do and just ran out of time (I wrote an email to that effect), but I’m about 95% sure they’re trying to hide from me that they don’t know how to do this stuff. I’m tempted to just keep refusing, but that feels petty. I would feel a lot more kind if the person said, “I don’t have a lot of experience with this, can you show me?” or “I’m having trouble with this, can you help me figure it out?” I mean, I get it if they’re embarrassed, but they’re going to be a lot more embarrassed when it comes out that someone else has been doing these tasks. I’m also annoyed that we’re presumably paid similarly and expected to do similar things, yet the expectations seem to be bent for this person if they keep getting away with not knowing how to perform these tasks after all these years. Should I just look at him point blank and ask if he doesn’t know how to do these things?

    1. Master Bean Counter*

      Remain too busy to bail the person out. sometimes you just got to let people hang themselves.

      1. Bostonian*

        I agree. This person’s boss (if they’re a good one) would want to know that this employee can’t do a basic task, so leaving this person high and dry might have the added benefit of alerting them to that.

    2. Kathenus*

      If it happens again, maybe a one-time offer of “I’ll talk you through it” – where they do it and you give direction. Make it clear that this is so they can learn it and do it on their own from now on. If you do it for them repeatedly, or do it while they watch, they are less likely to learn it themselves. Not knowing the details of why they don’t know it, this could be a way to give them the benefit of the doubt that they didn’t have the training for some reason and offer to do a one (more) time help, but that they need to learn it. Then if they ask again, turning them down or directing them to their manager to get more resources for learning the skill would be a possible next step.

    3. NicoleK*

      I’d help the first time and only the first time. Then suggest that he get some training. I have some sympathy. My BEC incompetent coworker has been in her role for 6 years. And she just asked me to send her back a document that she originally sent to me, because she can’t find it in Outlook.

      1. AnonyMs.*

        Yup, there’s also an element of “can’t find this in Outlook”! Sometimes I think I’m being unfair, but if you sit down for 10 minutes in Outlook and press a few buttons, you should be able to find things in your sent mail.

        I recently learned that someone else in the office didn’t know how to put comments in Word documents. I feel very advanced, and I’m… not.

        1. ..Kat..*

          Based on your user name, I assume you are female. So, a man, with the same job as you, is asking you (a woman) to do his secretarial work?

          “Sorry, I am not able to do that.” (Don’t give excuses for him to argue with.)

    4. Workerbee*

      If they approach you again, direct them to ask the boss for training or use Google for self-guided learning. Benefit of the doubt suggests that they don’t know how to do it, but I also wonder if they’re hoping to get away with always pushing basic tasks off on you that they could actually do.

      Signed,
      Someone who has dealt with false incompetence

    5. My cat is my alarm clock*

      I would ask. It doesn’t have to come across rudely. And definitely don’t keep doing it.

  63. I'm Allergic to Weed*

    I wrote about this in the thread yesterday about interviewing and scents.
    I have a coworker who is very much into the “weed lifestyle” as he calls it. I do not know if it is medicinal or recreational; but here it is legal either way.
    Whenever I am near this coworker, the smell that surrounds him causes me to have an allergic reaction–my eyes water, I start coughing, and I get flushed on my face. This only happens around this coworker when the weed smell is strong, so that is why I believe that to be the cause of my allergy.
    I tried talking to the coworker, and he told me I needed to “loosen up” and “deal with it because it’s his lifestyle.”

    Do I have any recourse here? I like my job, but I really don’t like being around this guy when he’s been smoking because it literally makes me sick. I shouldn’t have to drug myself with Benedryl just to attend a meeting with him in it, either.

    1. Master Bean Counter*

      He smokes during working hours??? I don’t get how this is not a problem. I don’t show up at my office drunk. Would probably get fired if I do.
      How does one get to show up at work impaired and get to tell other people to loosen up and deal with it? If this is acceptable in your office it’s time to look for a new one. Have you taken this to your manager and asked how you are supposed to deal with it? That’s where I’d start.

      1. I'm Allergic to Weed*

        Sorry, no, he doesn’t smoke at work (that I’m aware of). His clothes and hair reek of weed. Think Pigpen…it just follows him. Others notice it, but I’m the only one having an allergic reaction.

        1. Master Bean Counter*

          Yeah, then the conversation should be he needs to shower in the mornings so he doesn’t reek all day. But you don’t have to have that conversation. HR or management needs to have that conversation. Chances are he’s using things with hemp related fragrances in it, Which should be treated like any other offensive smell, such as Axe body spray. Those things are fine until someone has a problem, then they are not fine.

        2. The cat's pajamas*

          I wanted to add – I used to live in a place where weed is now legal. I now live in a place where it is newly legal, so I have seen the worst of it. At my previous job, I tried to be proactive with HR, after it was made legal but before the new law took effect. I started with “Can I clarify that the no smoking policy will apply to pot?” The HR person was awful and dismissive, which was terrible, I was trying to help them, and it was a big company that probably wants to avoid lawsuits.

          I ended up having to leave my job and an industry I loved, because the target audience was an age group that it also the target audience for pot. I’m still depressed about it, but there isn’t much I can do. I was also commuting to Big City on public transit, and the smell was starting to get bad on the transit, and the transit authority did not seem to care no matter how many times I reported people smoking in the stations. It’s still “technically” illegal in public.

          I am grateful I ended up at a semi-adjacent job that focuses on a kid audience, since it’s less likely my co-workers will be smoking weed, or having younger people smoking near our office. I’m not a kid-person but I guess this is my path for now. My coworkers have been great and I can work from home more, so that helps at least.

          I am so sad that nobody takes this seriously, and nothing will be done until it’s becomes a problem for more people. There is hardly any research (I’ve checked…) and we’re just putting a new substance into our air and water (from grow facilities) without knowing the consequences, and if you complain about it you get shamed or bullied. If we wanted to put any other substance into the environment like this, with no research, people would be opposed to it. I really wish we’d slowed down and thought through the consequences more, and balanced the benefits with people’s ability to breathe.

    2. Rusty Shackelford*

      You do what you’d do if you were allergic to anything else about him. You talk to him first, and if he can’t or won’t help, (and you’ve crossed off that step), next you go to your manager and ask what accommodations can be made for your situation. You don’t say “it’s only when he’s been smoking weed,” because as far as you know, you’re actually reacting to the Axe Body Spray he uses after he smokes. You say “sometimes this coworker wears or uses something that triggers a very strong allergic reaction, and I find it difficult to be in a room with him.” You explain that Benadryl isn’t a good option because it puts you in an antihistamine coma or whatever, and you ask what else can be done.

    3. The Librarian (not the type from TNT)*

      I have the exact same problem. Fortunately, I don’t have a weed-smoking coworker, but I deal with this problem everywhere else, including with my library patrons whom I have no choice but to help.

      Unfortunately, weed has become really culturally acceptable even in places where it’s still technically illegal. I suspect you’re going to be out of luck, and personally I just don’t get it at all. Even discounting the health and allergic factors, does no one realize that the stuff positively reeks?

      1. TheFacelessOldWomanWhoSecretlyLivesinYour House*

        So does beer. So do many foods people enjoy. Shrug,

      2. Ranon*

        I learned last week that the human nose is several orders of magnitude more sensitive to weed than tobacco. So that’s going to be fun for our culture to navigate…

    4. Polaris*

      Is there any way you could officially get tested for the allergy? If you have official medical documentation it becomes an ADA accommodation that would trump his “lifestyle choices”. He’s totally free to use outside of work, but drawing the line at physically importuning your colleagues is pretty reasonable I think.

    5. CupcakeCounter*

      Also allergic to weed!
      All of Alison’s advise regarding fragrance sensitivities and allergies are relevant here so just follow those steps. Bonus points if you head straight to your manager or HR while in the throes of a reaction – “I was just in a meeting with Pigpen and seem to be having a severe reaction to something he is wearing”. Whoever goes to talk with him will figure it out.

    6. Human Sloth*

      I am allergic to alcohol. All alcohol, not just red wine. No tequila, vodka, beer, any of it. Weed is not legal here yet and I have been praying that I am not allergic to weed so I can embrace this lifestyle when it is legal. Please oh please don’t let me be allergic to weed.

      However, I feel for you. His lifestyle can’t trump your health, especially at work.

    7. dealing with dragons*

      this is the same as if it were tobacco and someone has asthma (me). If you are in America you have the right to breathe through the ADA, and your company needs to figure out how to deal with that.

    8. LGC*

      So first of all, he’s a jerk.

      Second of all, go to your manager and mention that you have an allergic reaction to something Fergus is doing. The fact that it’s weed is irrelevant here – it’d be the same if he was wearing really heavy cologne and that was causing a reaction. I’d mention that you did try to go to him but he dismissed your concerns.

      For now, I’d try to keep your distance as much as possible. Although if he’s triggering your allergies by being in the same conference room as you…that’s hard.

      1. The cat's pajamas*

        I don’t have any advice, unfortunately, but sending lots of sympathy and appreciating posts from others.

        Can you even get tested if it’s federally illegal? What would they make the test sample from? That’s a big problem for me. :( Hard to prove.

        I have an air purifier at home, might be harder to use at work, some are loud, but maybe worth a try.

    9. That Girl From Quinn's House*

      I had some co-workers like this (they were young, in student roles.)

      The reason they reeked of weed was because, after work, they’d smoke in their car. So the smell permeated the car upholstery, etc., and then got on their hair, clothes, etc when they rode into work in the morning. The car reeked so bad the other student employees would walk rather than accept a ride from them.

  64. Master Bean Counter*

    So I get to ask about the promotion I was promised but never materialized today. Silly me for not asking when exactly his promotion would take place. But really I don’t think I should have to chase this information down. Last promotion was effective immediately.
    This was has felt like it’s happened. Work has increased, responsibility has increased, even my visibility has increased, yet here I sit with the old title and the old pay. With the same boss that has not given me key information for my job before.
    If I hang in here for a few more years he will retire and his job is mine for the taking. But he can be really frustrating to work with.

  65. Emi.*

    This is kind of work-related: does anyone have an organized way to keep track of who’s on strike, so I don’t inadvertently cross a picket line? Obviously I’m not going to cross a literal line of people picketing, but when there isn’t one, especially when it’s a broader thing like Stop&Shop workers asking people to stay away from Giant too, I wish I had a better system then keeping an eye on the news. Is there, like, a blog devoted to this, or something?

    1. Dragoning*

      I don’t know, but I’d love one. I got the day Uber/Lyft were having their strike wrong, which was kind of embarrassing.

    2. L.S. Cooper*

      Ugh, I wish I knew! I saw the Kroger employees voted to strike, and then I haven’t heard anything… I don’t want to go to my local King Soopers while they’re on strike on accident!

  66. Rusty Shackelford*

    How awful is it going to be for me to heat up mashed cauliflower in a microwave that’s located close to several offices? Due to remodeling, I can’t get to the breakroom microwave right now. (Spoiler alert: I’m going to do it anyway. I’m just wondering how bad I should feel.)

    1. CTT*

      Does cauliflower have a smell? I’ve microwaved it at home and never noticed one, but that could be because I had other smells competing with it.

    3. fposte*

      I’m no fan of the cruciferous vegetables odor but it doesn’t tend to linger too badly if it’s just a quick heat-up. I’ve done it with broccoli.

    5. Countess Boochie Flagrante*

      Uf, I find cauliflower smell much, much worse than fish smell! But it’s your lunch and better warm than cold.

    6. Not All*

      Pretty sure at least one person I work with would be driven out of the building by that smell. Any of the sulfur-smelling vegetables generally get a much worse response than things like fish. More “oof what is that reek?” comments than even burned popcorn!

    7. Not A Manager*

      After you heat up your cauliflower, put some vinegar into a bowl with water, bring it to a boil in the microwave, and let it sit there until you’ve finished eating or until someone else needs the microwave. It will eliminate some of the odor.

    8. ..Kat..*

      What about buying Bad Air Sponge (mentioned in the thread about boss on keto diet who stinks) and putting it by the microwave?

  67. Messy Bun*

    I am leaving my job of 2.5 years next week. I’d like to send a goodbye e-mail the evening before to announce the next day will be my last and thank colleagues for their support etc.
    I’d like to indicate that I am leaving because I am moving abroad (for private reasons but that’s not something to include). How would you frame this? Also, what’s the etiquette for goodbye emails? I want to keep it short but warm. I’m planning to send a separate email to our business partners to say goodbye (my boss might veto that bc there is noone to replace me yet).
    (Last time I changed jobs it was because my contract ended and it was the standar thing to do so now I am a bit confused because I am leaving because I want to leave but not for a better opprtunity.)

    1. Save One Day at a Time*

      Hi team,

      Thank you for your support for the past 2.5 years. It has been great working alongside you during this time. I will be relocating to Berlin, and my last day is June 40th. [you can insert personal contact info if you want to stay in touch and if that is standard at your workplace].

      To the partners, I’d let them know you’ve enjoyed working with them, and give them your supervisor’s info until a new person is hired.

    2. Fortitude Jones*

      Short but warm is the perfect tone to strike. When I sent my farewell off to the team, I thanked them for the cute birthday/going away card they gave me (with a Starbucks gift card to boot – my fave!) and for all the offers of help they gave me. I told them I enjoyed working with each and every one of them and wished them good luck on their projects. That was it, and it was well received.

    3. Quandong*

      Having received some farewell emails that contained in-jokes, my advice is mainly related to those: don’t include in-jokes or allude to events that recipients may not recall, because it’s weird to be on the receiving end of those.

    4. Jane of all Trades*

      Dear all,

      As you may know, tomorrow is my last day at Dunder Mifflin. I have enjoyed my 2.5 years here with you, and thank you for all the support and comeraderie.

      I will be moving to Gondor next month, and if you are ever in the area of Minas Thirith please do reach out, my email is [email].

      Thank you again / warm regards / fond farewell

      Messy Bun

  68. Teapot Librarian*

    It’s been a while since I’ve shared adventures in Hoarding. This week we had a project going on that Hoarder thought I was handling poorly. Instead of coming to me directly (and remember, *I* am *his* boss, not the other around), he sent an email to me, copied every single employee in the office, and blind copied my boss. And then was at a meeting for the rest of the day.

    Before I had a chance to talk to him about how WILDLY UNPROFESSIONAL that was, he came to me with a separate problem. I thanked him for letting me know, told him I would deal with it, and then told him that this–coming to me directly–is how he should address issues, not sending an email and copying the entire office. The discussion continued, because unsurprisingly he had a reason why he hadn’t come to me directly. I reiterated that when there is a conflict, he should come to me directly, and we can work it out. To which he responded “I didn’t say there was a conflict. There’s no conflict.” Seriously?

    Anyway, that’s Hoarder. Meanwhile I have Lazy1 and Lazy2 to deal with. In fact, I’m off to go make sure that Lazy1 is actually working. Happy Friday?

  69. CheeseWaffles*

    Hi, just giving you an update from what I posted earlier in the month:

    “I accepted an internal transfer position a month ago. The position is brand new and will help out another coworker, with his growing workload. I won’t be able to start my position until after we hire my replacement and train them. I knew this going in and know that we have a long training time. The reason for transferring is to learn a new skill, have a better work/life balance and leave a toxic position with a ever growing toxic teammate. Unfortunately no pay increase.

    The frustrating part is that we’re having a hard time finding applicants. Our department had a lady that gave a long notice, like more than 5 months, and her position is still not filled even after she left. Not many bites or good applicants. Any good applicant has turned the position down after the interview. About a month ago they attempted to hire two people, one for her replacement and one that would be for now mine too, but both turned the job down. There have been two more afterwards that have either turned it down or accepted then rescinded right before starting. Now we have another person who interviewed and management decided it would be for a new position, not for the other ladies or mine. Needless to say I’m feeling frustrated because now me being able to start went from months to tbd. My position isn’t even posted yet. All my peers feel defeated with no applicants wanting to accept as the work continues to grow and we become more and more burned out.

    The pay is a big reason for many to not accept. We are a pretty specialized niche in our job market so you would think we would get paid more for our expertise, but we’re on the lower side. Management swears that they’re competitive and they get mad when my peers keep bringing up the low pay. I think we’re on the verge of a mutiny.

    My dilemma is a position at a place I want to work for now has an opening. It will be in a position more suited to my skills as opposed to one I had applied to before at that company and didn’t get. I know the starting pay will be like 5-6 dollar raise and that is around the top of my pay scale now. I have a friend who works there and is willing to give me a reference. Would it be wrong to leave a pending position with no start date in sight that I recently accepted?”

    The position that was for an entirely new job, that applicant also turned it down. I think that was also salary related. Sooooo we’re back to square one again! :( I think this has been now over five people now who have turned down the job. People at my work keep asking me when I’m going to start my internal position, but I don’t have any answers.

    In good news I did end up applying to that other company that has an opening. Just waiting to hear back! Fingers crossed! Thanks guys for your support and giving me strength. Your words mirrored my own thoughts! :D

    1. Dragoning*

      I would not feel even the slightest bit bad about leaving that company. Maybe for my coworkers who were awful suffering–but that many people refusing jobs there? Yikes.

      1. CheeseWaffles*

        You’re right Dragoning, I do feel bad for my coworkers. I’m very close to some of them, including the guy that I’m supposed to be working with for the internal transfer position. So, yeah, there is guilt about that. :/

    2. CatCat*

      Good for you for pursuing a better opportunity! Your job hasn’t followed through on the transfer. Your bosses absolutely KNOW the pay at your current company is not competitive. Now you have a chance to solve both those issues by getting a new job. Fingers crossed for you!

  70. NewGig*

    Hi all! Thanks to the help of this community, I just got a new job that I start next month. It’s the first time I’ll be changing companies since joining my previous company right out of college 10 years ago. So here’s the question:

    What advice do you have for someone starting a new position already into their career? Questions I should ask (or shouldn’t ask) early on? How to best navigate starting a new job not at entry-level? What to look out for?

    Thank you in advance for any help!

    1. Workerbee*

      Congratulations!!

      At risk of telling you something you already know, one of the best pieces of advice I’ve given myself is this:

      Listen, ask questions, keep listening.

      I’ve made the mistake of assuming things before, especially because hey, I’m not new to the working world, I’m seasoned! Oops.

      And sadly, I’ve burned bridges I didn’t know I was burning because I was brought in to Fix Things and took my boss’s word that I had to go all hot on someone to deliver their piece of a project…never realizing until it was too late that that person had a completely different view, not to mention set of instructions from their own boss. Despite being under pressure, I should have approached it with “I’ve been told to ask you about . Is this indeed you? If so, can we set up time to meet? If not, can you point me to who I need to speak to?”

      I’ve also been put off by “Why aren’t you doing things THIS way?” questions from a new hire on their first day.

      And keep your ears open for how you are being introduced. My boss did me a major disservice by referring to my role using cutesy slang. I didn’t realize this until it was repeated back to me. Ugh.

      (Re-reading, I don’t mean this to strike any chords of impending doom in you! It would have been shorter for me to say to just keep your ears open now that you’re actually working there versus being told about working there.)

    2. Policy Wonk*

      I have found that in the first week (or two) of a new job I may have trouble filling all the hours in the work day. As I read in, start to get into e-mail distros, sharepoints, invited to meetings and am otherwise integrated into the office, I find it hard to believe I was ever not busy. But during that first week or two it’s hard. So keep your eyes and ears open, be ready to learn, and have some work-related reading material at hand in case you find yourself with time on your hands.

  71. Overeducated*

    Had an interview yesterday for a stretch job that would get me out of the big city and closer to the mountains! Wish me luck! I am trying not to get my hopes up because there are areas where I simply don’t have the experience, and I have been told there is an inside candidate who’s been filling in in those areas while the position has been vacant. But of course, until I get rejected, it makes it hard to move forward with stuff like buying a house in my current location, which is kind of a time sensitive thing right now.

    3. Kathenus*

      Fingers crossed for you, closer to the mountains would be a dream for me. Good luck.

      1. Overeducated*

        Thanks. We’re not talking the Rockies or anything, but I’ll take what I can get on the east coast :)

  72. Michelenyc*

    I have been waiting all week for this thread. I need some help from all the expats or past expats out there. I have been looking for a new position the past few months. My freelance gig ended recently. A recruiter reached out to me this week for a position in Holland. I am very qualified and am very excited to start the conversation. I am bring cautiously optimistic. Fortunately she provided a ton of information that is super helpful and I have been doing my own research. This is a move I have wanted to make for years. What kinds of questions should I ask? I have travelled extensively but have never lived overseas and need some help understanding as to what I should ask for and what to expect in this process.

    1. ExPat*

      Know the US government still requires you to pay income tax even if you live abroad and pay tax to the country you’re living in. Make sure your salary compensates for this lovely thing.

      1. Tau*

        If you’re really based abroad (no income from the US, only visiting the US briefly if at all), it shouldn’t be necessary to actually pay any taxes? You’ll have to file a return, but there’s a few ways of offsetting foreign income and foreign-paid taxes that mean the total amount owed should come out to $0.

        1. Michelenyc*

          Thank you! This is very helpful! I will keep this in mind. Fingers crossed I get to that stage.

        2. Asenath*

          How the US tax rules affect an American working abroad depends on the tax treaties between the US and the other country – in the case of Canada, such a person would pay Canadian taxes and get a credit for those to use with the US taxes, and ideally everything balances out so the worker isn’t paying double taxes. It can get complicated, though, depending on the person’s entire tax situation, any other investments or property etc. and I hear that accountants who are expert in international taxation charge a LOT for their services.

      2. Mephyle*

        Most countries have no-double-taxation agreements, which means the situation that Asenath described. You don’t have to pay tax to both countries on the same income. But you do have to file with both countries, even if you don’t owe taxes to one or the other of them.
        Fun fact: if you become a permanent expat (that is, once you have lived outside your home country long enough), you no longer have to file taxes in the home country, unless that home country is the US or Eritrea.

        1. Michelenyc*

          Thank you for this information. I have accountants in my family so I am sure I can get some help with all the tax stuff if I need it.

    2. AvonLady Barksdale*

      Make sure the company you’ll be working for is reputable and established! They should have a team (or a person) who can handle a lot of the logistics for you, and if they don’t, be very cautious.

      I really only say this because someone I know recently decided to open up a branch of his company in Amsterdam and I would tell everyone tempted by it to run far, far away.

      1. Michelenyc*

        I have researched them and they are very established. No way would I go if they weren’t.

    3. Tau*

      Crossing my fingers for you that it works out! I think living abroad can be a great experience and lets you get to know a country in a way tourism never can. Also, Holland will give you a fantastic base to explore Europe.

      Things I’d double-check on:
      – is the company language English? In addition, where do the other employees come from? If 90% of the other employees are Dutch, chances are that even if the language is English on paper all the social stuff and some work stuff will be happening in Dutch. On the flip side, if more than half the employees are international, it’s unlikely to pan out that way.
      – what kind of support do they offer, both formal and informal? Navigating the bureaucracy of another country to the point of finding a place to rent is hard, and that goes quadruply if the official language is something other than English. (I can’t speak for the Netherlands, but over here in Germany, despite “everyone speaking English” in practice a lot of bureaucratic things are still German only.)
      – where is the position exactly? A major city is going to be really, really different from a rural area.

      I’m sure there’s loads of other things that aren’t coming to mind right now so I hope some US ex-pats can weigh in.

      1. Michelenyc*

        Thank you! It’s hard to keep from getting too excited. Fluent English is one of the requirements for the position actually so I am good in that respect. The search is international and they want someone like me. I have to say the recruiter sent amazing information about the cities, Cost of Living, and what the commute would be like.

        1. AmericanAbroad*

          Requiring fluent English for a position isn’t the same as the whole company speaking English. I’m an American expat in a neighborhoring country to the Netherlands, and I’ve definitely heard of friends who have all their meetings in English but then lunch and anything social is in Dutch for example. So good thing to check on :)

    4. Catwoman*

      Ask questions about transportation. I know it seems like a minor detail, but the two people I’ve known who have lived in Holland have remarked about how EVERYONE uses a bicycle and how it important it is to the culture. I believe they were both based in more urban areas. I would haaaate this. I know it seems like a minor thing, but these little cultural things can really affect your day-to-day life.

      I lived in London for almost two years. Besides the above, it can also be useful to ask about transportation when negotiating salary and benefits. The London Underground is quite expensive, but definitely the most efficient way to get around the city so a lot of companies would offer 0% interest loans to let you purchase an annual pass so you can take advantage of the discounted rate without having to shell out like 1500 pounds at once for it.

      Another cultural thing to consider is how many foreigners/expats there are in the area. It definitely helps to have a community when making a move this big and could feel quite lonely if for example the position is located in a rural area with 99% Dutch whose families have lived there forever.

    5. it happens*

      Cool!
      I worked for a US-based company that sent me to another country and here are some of the things they did. (Wow, it’s a lot when I read through it, I was lucky.)
      1. Very clear comp package and contract for everything up-front- I had my salary, bonus and vacation allowance as I would have in the US, plus a package of benefits for the country I was in, not just health. These benefits included housing (the company paid my rent and deducted a US-level of housing costs from my paycheck,) cost of living differences (so I would have an equivalent lifestyle despite any cost differences) and essentially hazard pay. The last three were subject to change each year based on published stats.
      2. I had a tax- equalization package. The company paid for an accounting firm to prepare my taxes each year, which they did essentially twice. Once was the taxes that actually had to be paid to each country, the second was what my taxes would have been had I stayed in the US, those last three benefits were essentially ‘tax free’ to me. I still have a little foreign tax carryforward on my returns because the taxes I paid were higher in-country than the US.
      3. They paid for my language school- even if the company language is officially English (mine was not) you should get at least a few weeks of intensive language school to be able to navigate socially on your own. And you should also get a few hours a week of language training for your whole first year- there are cultural differences that you should have help with and every season has its own, thus the year.
      4. The relocation- you want them to hire a company that will do it all for you. You separate your belongings into three piles – thank you for your service, goodbye, storage and move to Holland. They pack everything, move the stuff into storage (admittedly, this was the biggest luxury) and deal with all of the customs rigamorale for the moving to Holland stuff (this is a necessity.)
      5. Living- what help do they provide on finding and securing a place to live? A foreigner has a much more difficult time securing a place than a corporation does. Best if they have an experienced relocation company that will take you around town and explain the different neighborhoods to you while helping you find the place.
      6. Work visa- they should do it all for you and tell you what the process entails up front.
      7. Cultural orientation- two parts, life in the country and life at work. Opening a bank account, getting credit cards, transit info, etc.
      8. Mentor/sponsor – someone who will orient you to ‘how we do things here’ as well as introduce you around so you can be productive and help your career.
      9. Culture questions- is this a company with a lot of expats? A lot from your country? How does your role fit in? What’s your team like? Your manager? The teams you work with?
      10. You did not mention partner/spouse/children which adds another whole layer. Housing, work visa, child care, education would enter into your negotiation.
      Some of these were provided because I was expected to return to the US (which I did) and I had a contract that spelled everything out, including what would happen if I quit or was fired or laid off. Being hired directly into an operation in another country would make some of the package make less sense. I would internet-search ‘company x, country y, expat’ and see what shows up. A lot of expats and spouses have blogs…
      It was a great experience- I highly recommend it

    6. Ledgerman*

      I’m in the process of going to the Netherlands myself! One thing is that Holland is all in the Netherlands, but all of the Netherlands is not Holland – and some Dutchies are sensitive about this.

      There is something in the Netherlands called the 30% ruling, where if you are a professional with a job offer over a certain salary and you have that job offer BEFORE you come to the country, you can get a ruling that exempts the first 30% of your income from tax – which is great as the tax rate there is something like 52%. Ideally your prospective job interfaces with the government to get you this 30% ruling. My job will also do my U.S. and Netherlands tax returns for me while I’m there, which is handy.

      My job is also doing things like handling the visa process for myself and my spouse, setting up a Dutch bank account, providing a realtor to help us find an apartment, and providing us with regular flights home to the U.S. – some of these things you may not expect if you are applying for a position directly vs. doing a secondment with an existing employer. So you should ask about some of these details as you move through the recruitment process! The Dutch are very direct and there is no need to be subtle about what you want and need.

  73. Dr Paris London Sydney*

    Has anyone had experience going from social science and/or humanities academia to the work world outside of the ivory tower? There seem to be quite a few options for qualitative researchers (UX, consulting and teaching, for example), but I would really love to hear from the AAM community about your experiences.

    For some context, I am an anthropologist who works on tourism, social media and the environment. I love my work but I am starting to consider that there might be better work-life balance (and pay) in industry.

    1. Another anthropologist*

      Yes. I went to work for a federal land management agency in cultural resources, where there are jobs at individual sites and regional and national offices, which sounds like they would relate to your interests. There are also social scientists who study things like patterns and impacts of visitation or impacts of different decisions on subsistence resources. The pay isn’t tech industry pay though – you can search for cultural resources or social science on USAjobs to see what’s out there right now.

      My one warning is that very few of these jobs are research jobs. Most involve more project management and review of research conducted by external partners like universities, compliance with various regulations and policies, and advising park and other leadership on decisions. We’ve moved further and further from in-house research in the last couple decades for structural reasons that don’t look like they’re about to change. Just FYI in case that’s a deal breaker for you.

    2. sociologist*

      I’m making the jump to a customer experience survey company (my first day is next week!), but I’m coming from more of a quantitative background. One resource that I found very helpful for ethnographic industry jobs is the epicpeople dot org job board.

  74. Arielle*

    Ironically I was in the middle of reading the comments on an older AAM post about dietary needs not being accommodated at work when my project manager suggested the team go for an impromptu lunch at an old-school Italian sub place. I’m Type 1 diabetic and pregnant so I cannot have bread or lunch meat or unpasteurized cheese right now. I did not see anything on the menu that I could eat so I told them to go without me. :(

      1. Arielle*

        Thank you! Just about to turn the corner on 20 weeks and it’s hard to believe I’m already halfway done. Work has been really accommodating and I really can’t complain, it was just funny that I literally happened to be reading that article when everyone started walking out the door for Italian subs.

    2. My cat is my alarm clock*

      Sorry if this makes me sound stupid but why does that mean you can’t have bread? Maybe your boss just didn’t realise – I wouldn’t have.

      1. Arielle*

        You’re absolutely right that technically I can have bread. But an 80-carb Italian sub roll would mean fighting blood sugar spikes all afternoon, and that is really not the best choice for me or the baby. Not to mention I would have to have the bread plain because I can’t have the deli meat that goes on it!

      2. Decima Dewey*

        The sub roll has 80 carbs all by itself. Normally diabetics aren’t supposed to eat more than 60 or so at a given meal. Arielle can’t have lunch meats or unpasteurized cheese–which leaves basically iceberg lettuce, tomatoes, and a handful of vegetables in mayo or oil, kind of messy to eat. The lunch meat, of course, has also sorts of preservatives that make it delicious, but not suitable for a pregnant woman.

        1. Arielle*

          Yup. And more than 30 or 40 and I’m definitely looking at spending some time with a blood sugar over 150, which while not ideal ever is extra bad while pregnant.

    3. dealing with dragons*

      I can’t eat soy so it’s always A Thing whenever we get food catered or have team lunches. My current manager also (luckily? lol) has food allergies so it’s generally ok and she remembers. Usually if this happens I still go, but I only have a drink or get a milkshake or something “substantial”. It might be worth it in these situations to call ahead and see if they could do an impromptu veggie tray or nice salads. Generally restaurants are also OK if you bring your own food as part of a group meal if you have serious food considerations like this.

      Though funny story, I went to TGI Fridays with friends a month or so ago, and literally everything there has soy in it. So I ate ahead and planned on just drinking beer. The waitress asked why I wasn’t eating and I said food allergies and I know in her head she thought gluten. This poor waitress def thought she was going to have to break it to me that beer had gluten in it haha

  75. AnonForWorkplaceDramaToday*

    I started a new job a few weeks ago, moving on from what had become a very toxic situation with my former employer. Things at the new place are chaotic, undefined, and in flux – none of which I love, but most of which I knew going in. I knew the first 6 months would be tough, but decided I could roll. The manager seems good & the team solid.

    Unfortunately, Mimi – the coworker who was supposed to be training me – has been out on unexpected leave since I started. She is working remotely, but sporadically, and not available for training. As a result, I’ve been thrown into things I have not been adequately trained for – including serving as a reviewer of other people’s work. ((sigh)) NOT IDEAL!!!! This created some drama w/the new team who hadn’t been adequately informed of the situation, but we’ve pretty much smoothed that out now. Admittedly, all of this is very not ideal, but I think we’ve righted the ship & are moving in a positive direction. Well, all of us except Mimi…

    Mimi is taking extremely passive aggressive digs at me via email. I’ve been chastised for how I choose to mark up the reports I’m reviewing, for sending “thanks!” emails after she’s confirmed a task has been complete, and other super petty stuff. Apparently, she has said she feels they are pushing her out. My manager tells me she has had numerous conversations with Mimi, assuring her they are NOT replacing her and, in fact are trying to move her away from operational tasks into higher level ones (hence bringing me in to backfill). She ain’t buying, folks. And, here’s the kicker: whenever Mimi comes back from leave – we’re sharing her TINY office.

    What to do?

    1. Anne (with an “e”)*

      I would interact very tactfully with Mimi and approach all interactions with her in a matter-of-fact manner. I think that Mimi is going to be looking for reasons to take digs at you and, perhaps, try to undermine you. She feels threatened. She has decided to respond in a passive aggressive manner. I would document everything as much as possible. You be professional, take the high road. However, I would be a bit leery; I would be somewhat concerned that in the future she may say she has trained you on a procedure, when she actually hasn’t. Or she might train you incorrectly. Send her emails after training sessions, “Just to summarize the steps for glazing the teapots, you should first abc, and then qrs, and finally xyz.” Document, document, document. Try to ignore Mimi’s passive aggressive responses, other than to document.

      I hope this helps.

      1. VlookupsAreMyLife*

        Thanks, Anne (with an “e”), great advice. I hadn’t really considered the potential for misinformation.

        I created some process documentation (since there was none) based on the bit of training I’ve received from other folks in the dept. and sent it to her for approval. Crickets.

        One of the reasons I was brought on was to support process improvements, so I think maybe she’s just really upset about having”her” methods questioned.
        I also know the reason for her leave is due to a very stressful family situation, so I’m trying to give her more latitude & not take it personally.

        All that said, I am *not* thrilled about having to share an office with her. If this continues, I might speak up & ask for an alternative work space. Boss has already mentioned that might be an option, so I think it would be okay to ask.

        1. Anne (with an “e”)*

          I think that it’s extremely nice of you to cut her some slack due to her family issues. I’m of two minds about that. On the one hand, I feel that people should not be judged too harshly when they are going through stress in their personal life. On the other hand, I feel that Mimi (and anyone who is going through struggles in their personal life) should make a strong, concerted effort not to let that interfere in their professional life.

          Also, I would definitely ask your boss about working in a different space. I would do this before Mimi returns, if feasible. Since the boss has already mentioned this possibility, I believe you could say something along the lines of, “I have been thinking about the option that you mentioned earlier about working in an alternate space. Can we move forward with that?”

          I sincerely hope everything turns out well for you and the Mimi situation.

    2. Flyleaf*

      Talk to your manager, and have them find you someone else to train you. Mimi is not available, and not helpful, and you need someone to step in and get this done. This is on your manager.

      1. VlookupsAreMyLife*

        Thanks, Flyleaf. Luckily, the training piece is largely covered for now. I’m sure there will be more to do once Mimi returns.

        I’m going to try a more disengaged approach & see how that goes. From now on, questions get directed to someone not Mimi & I’ll let my manager know why, if it comes up.

        Ex: “Here’s the weekly teapot production numbers, Mimi” vs “Hi Mimi, I have the weekly teapot numbers ready. Would you be able to take a look & let me know if you have any suggestions before I finalize? Also, I’m wondering about xyz and was hoping to get your feedback on how best to incorporate that into the report. Thanks!”

        I think the thing that’s most frustrating right now is how manager & everyone else have insisted that Mimi is just the sweetest. Like, I get that she’s been sweet TO YOU, but that’s not been my experience so far & I’d rather not be dismissed. I’m concerned there’s going to be a refusal to believe anything bad about Mimi, if I end up having to escalate things.

        I guess time will tell. Hopefully, this is a bunch of needless worry on my part & it really is an anomaly due to outside stress on her part.

  76. wingmaster*

    Thanks everyone who shared their Blind Move stories last week! I had both my phone interview with HR and the hiring manager this week, and I thought it went really well. Relocation didn’t seem to be a problem. The next step, as mentioned by the hiring manager, is a panel interview over Skype, which could be next week. I love how this process is moving well. Wish me luck facing the firing squad hahaha.

  77. Anon for now...*

    Thank goodness for this thread! I am a middle manager-level employee at a decently-sized non-profit (about 200 staff). I am considered a “high potential” employee, using the business lingo the kids are saying these days, and my boss has ranked me as “ready to be promoted at least one level immediately.” I am a non-practicing attorney and my position is not administrative in any way.

    The problem is that due to some historical issues with a previous boss that I’m not going to get in to, I have been given some duties as “development” (meaning, to ready me for eventual promotion) that are, shall we say, not at all in that vein. Mostly, meeting planning. I don’t want to give the impression that I’m above meeting planning at all, but this is planning for an event not in my department and it’s literally planning the meeting – sending out the invites, arranging lunches, getting the materials put together, etc. And, to be frank, I am not interested in it and not that good at it (side rant: why in the world employers think that just anyone can do some tasks like meeting planning?? There is a reason there are career meeting planners and executive assistants – because those are actual skills that not everyone has!!).

    I was not allowed to push back on things like this with my previous boss, but I would like to now. I have an excellent relationship with my current boss, so that isn’t an issue, but I don’t want it to seem like I’m saying it’s beneath me or that I’m not a team player. The problem is that it’s getting mixed up with “well, no one else who gets extra duties for succession development pushes back,” but those individuals get actual stretch assignments that advance their knowledge and experience in areas that would help them advance, whereas I…do not. How can I seem like a team player and someone willing/eager to put in the time while also pushing back against duties that really aren’t relevant and really don’t make sense to be assigned to me?

    1. Troutwaxer*

      Perhaps the new position they have in mind for you will involve meeting planning in some dimension? I would handle this by asking your boss, “Why does my stretch assignment involve meeting planning? It doesn’t seem very useful for the positions I imagine you’d put me in? Is there something I don’t understand?”

    2. Jules the 3rd*

      Have you asked the current boss if she can help you understand how this fits into the bigger picture? Eg, will the next step in promotion require overseeing executive / board / donor meetings, so you need to know all the details? Or will the next step have a lot of project management? You’re right meeting prep requires skills, and they usually fall under a ‘project management’ umbrella.

      Alternately: Is there any chance that you have been perceived as looking down on people who do this kind of work, and the project was intended to grow your empathy? (which could very much be a red/orange flag if that perception is, say, based on you being a specific gender that’s supposed to be more empathetic, but flag color would very much depend on context)

      Third alternative, things that would be serious red flags to me no matter the context: Do you think ‘meeting org’ was retribution in some way from the old boss? I don’t get any feel for your gender from your post, but do you feel like you’re being pushed this way because you are female, and the people getting stretch assignments are male?

    3. Anon for now...*

      I really appreciate the comments! For a little context that my novel still somehow managed to leave out (I am both verbose and indirect – it’s a great combo!), the positions to which I would be considered are all director-level positions, including deputy director. None of them would at all involve meeting planning.

      My current role already involves project management, so that part is covered. I also definitely do not have a reputation as looking down or being “better than” any role (and I sincerely appreciate you flagging it to make sure because this is something that should be integral to any role and I truly consider one of my core values). It’s actually something that I have been praised for in virtually all of my performance appraisals, so I know it’s not just my belief that I am perceived that way.

      Also, I am a cisgender female, as is my current boss and was my former boss and I don’t think it is gender based at all (my organization does have issues in that area, but this isn’t one of them). I think a lot of it is my former boss just wasn’t great at pushing back on anything – and everyone knew it – and no one could think of anything else to assign me, so this is what it became. Because of the nature of my current role, I already do a lot of higher-level work and I think no one could think of anything else because most of the others in the succession plan were lower level staff for whom this type of duty would make more sense and she would just go along with whatever anyone else suggested without considering whether it made sense (and being more assertive is actually something I’ve worked on since then on my own because I started to see I was becoming the same way, this being a prime example).

      1. Reba*

        What about bringing it up in a conversation about your professional development in general. If your boss is supportive I would think she’d be glad to hear that you are thinking about this!

        “I want to be strategic about the assignments I take on with an eye toward my succession plan. Let’s talk about priorities…. blah blah blah. Here is where I am with Meeting Stuff. As you know I am happy to pitch in on things, but this is not a growth assignment for me and it takes time and attention away from Strategic Things. [optional discuss how you got here] Can we talk about transitioning me away from Meeting Stuff and towards one of my areas of growth? What would that look like?”

  78. Save One Day at a Time*

    What are some of the threads so far this year that you really want to get an update on? I know Alison asks us for input at the end of every year, so I’m trying to keep a mental tab of the ones I want to follow up on! Anyone else?

  79. Washi*

    I’m leaving my role in a social services field to go back to school, and I’m feeling really guilty about leaving my clients! I work with very elderly people (average age is 85) and many of them have gotten quite attached to me, despite my efforts to set appropriate boundaries. I visit them in their homes, so a lot of them slide into seeing me as more of a friend/granddaughter. My coworkers who will take over are lovely, but some of them are not super conscientious and I do worry that their access to services will suffer.

    How have other folks in client-facing fields like this dealt with the guilt? I’m excited about this next step but then I keep thinking about how upset some people will be when I tell them.

    1. RainbowsAndKitties*

      Social worker here

      It is all a part of the normal boundaries and expectations that you have to develop and use when you work directly with clients in social services. Just like you have to “let go” of the idea that you can fix everyone’s problems and that every outcome is going to be happy and positive, you also have to “let go” of the idea that people will not continue on without your help. As long as you are setting people up to succeed by ensuring that they are transitioning to someone else within the org, you just kind of have to accept that your client’s life will go on without you.

      I definitely still think about past clients often though. So it’s not odd to feel some level of attachment. Good luck!

    2. Save One Day at a Time*

      Remember that the point of this work is to get to a point where the client doesn’t need you anymore. Termination of services is tough, but remember that the work will go on without you. It isn’t all on your shoulders. Make sure to give the clients notice that you are leaving

    3. Kuododi*

      I had to remind myself my particular client base survived before they met me (not necessarily in a positive fashion but hey…that’s why I racked up the student loans becoming a licensed mental health counselor.). Consider this, what would happen if you had to take medical retirement, retire outright, or get hit by a tank. Something tells me your clients would be sad for a bit and dust themselves off to continue living. It’s ok to be sad about leaving, sounds like you had a good position with an opportunity to bring positive support to your community. This guilt you talk about however is a waste of time and energy. It only serves to complicate decision making process and cause tension headaches, lower back pain with gastric upset. Best regards

  80. infopath experts around?*

    I’ve run out of ideas so was wondering if anyone had any.

    I have a SharePoint list in the following format:
    Location | Category | Value (such as price)

    There are 40-some categories. Each location has only one category/value combination, so it’s 40 rows for each location.

    We are making a form for data entry in infopath.

    The users want to fill it out like it’s one form for each location that has 40 fields and they just fill them out one by one.

    I can get an infopath form to *display* all 40 values using calculated value fields, but I cannot for the life of me figure out how to get one infopath form linked to a SP list the ability to *edit* 40 items at once.

    Any ideas? We are, unfortunately, stuck using Infopath for this. While in the past we’ve bitten the bullet and added each category and value space as a column in the table, so each location only has one row, that would be a nightmare for this.

    I am out of ideas and hope someone with more creativity can help me out.

    1. Good luck with that*

      I have built primarily in Access and MS SQL, so I don’t know whether Infopath will do this… Is it possible to create subforms for multiple records for each category associated with the location on the parent form?
      It would look like one form to the end users as they tabbed from one category row to the next, but behind the scenes it would be saving each location/category record when the sub form loses focus.
      You could also have a read-only form that displays the records in pivot table layout by location and category, if that would be useful. (At least, Access would do that.)
      If your 40 categories are a fixed population, though, I don’t quite understand why it would be so much harder to make them the fieldnames in your SharePoint table. If the categories change with any frequency, of course, that would be a nuisance to program and update and update again.

  81. RainbowsAndKitties*

    I need some help with how to address this situation:

    I started the position of Teapot Manager in April, as the original Teapot Manager (lets call her Arya) is retiring at the end of next month after a LONG career with the nonprofit that I’m joining.
    So far training has been…ok. I’ve been here almost two months and i’m starting to feel pretty confident about my role as Teapot Manager. But I’m having problems with the awkwardness of having Arya around while I’m trying to take over the position. Specifically the issues are:

    1. Arya is still doing parts of the job that I have been trained to do.
    2. People are still going to Arya with questions/problems/giving her things to process, but I would very much prefer if she sent them to me instead. Even if I don’t know the answer, I’d like the chance to try to answer and then find unknowns on my own. Sometimes if someone comes to me with a question, Arya will hear and interject with the answer before I can respond.
    3. Arya does parts of the job without me and without explaining to me what is going on. Ex: Part of the job is records management, and all of the sudden there are tons of boxes of records at the door. I had to seek her out and ask her why they were there and what was happening with them,

    There is more, but those are the “biggies”. Our ED (who would be our supervisor) is out on a medical leave. And the other manager who is taking over ED responsibilities while they are gone is normally a peer position.

    Thanks for any help!

    1. Just Elle*

      So, I just caught myself being an Arya.

      Well, I didn’t catch myself. My replacement finally said “hey, can you help me help you get things off your plate?” and it was a lightbulb moment. Sure, I’m a bit of a control freak. And also, its so much quicker and easier for me to do things than to walk him through it – I mean, its basically automatic for me to do them.

      It was a total mindset shift to realize that my job was no longer to handle things as quickly and effectively as possible (even if that meant brushing the replacement to the side)…. my job was to enable my replacement to learn and grow into the position so I no longer had to be the person handling everything.

      So my advice is, just have a one on one conversation directly with Arya and say “hey, would you mind if we transition so that I’m the lead on projects? I want to make sure I have the chance to learn what I don’t know while you’re still here to answer my questions!” It will come much better from you than from your boss anyway.

      1. RainbowsAndKitties*

        Thank you so much for your insight and advice! I’m kind of a control enthusiast too, so I definitely can see it more from her side now haha

    2. Jules the 3rd*

      Be patient! These will sort themselves out next month when she leaves. The only one you need to address soon is #3, and there just ask Arya to loop you in on new aspects of the job.

      If you really need to push, maybe a formal 15 minute meeting each morning where you / she say ‘here’s stuff that’s coming up today’, giving you the opportunity to say, ‘hey, we haven’t covered that! I’ll need to sit in on it’.

      1. valentine*

        These will sort themselves out next month when she leaves.
        I don’t trust Arya to leave, much less permanently. The horning in to answer first is the kicker. What if she wants to go part-time or “visits” every day and essentially does RainbowsAndKitties’s job unpaid?

        It’s like “The second-best time to plant a tree is now.” The x-best time to say something is now. Chip away at her grip before you find yourself on the wrong end of “Arya’s not leaving us, so she’ll always be here to help you. Win/win.” (For me, that’s echoing like the Grady twins in The Shining. (Though I love them.))

    3. Overeducated*

      The good thing here is that this situation has a defined end date. I’ve been through this before when I replaced someone who retired last summer, probably a lot of people have, and #1 and #2 are definitely going to be resolved in a month. It may be annoying for now but you can survive that, and when Arya’s gone the lines of responsibility will be very clear.

      #3 sounds like something you do need to address, so maybe you should have a weekly training/catch-up meeting with Arya or something like that to get a chance to ask questions about that sort of thing or give her opportunity to train you on things that come up as they come up.

  82. Just Elle*

    Embarrassing story time:

    I’m sitting at a conference and find myself at a table with a very very very senior person who I admire. She says to me, “oh, I have that same blazer, I actually almost wore it today.” Instead of mumbling any number of polite thanks, out of my mouth comes a cheerful… “well I’m glad you didn’t, that would have been awkward!”
    She just stared at me, and then got up and moved to another table.

    Despite my deepest wishes, the floor did not swallow me up.

    1. Amber Rose*

      No matter how old or experienced you get, I think everyone has at least one moment where they are awkward with people they really didn’t want to be awkward with. I’m sure she’s heard worse.

      1. Just Elle*

        haha thanks. I think part of me is a little annoyed that she handled it so abruptly. Like, obviously I didn’t *mean* anything by it but she looked at me like I’d just dropped my drawers at the table. So maybe I learned something about her as well.

        As my guy coworker who witnessed the conversation remarked “that isn’t a thing that would have mattered to a guy…. like… at all.” So. IDK. Still will be seared into my brain as an embarrassing moment to relive at 2am for a while I’m sure.

        1. AvonLady Barksdale*

          No way this is on you, SHE was weird about it! I actually think you answered really well. I would totally say something like that! What were you supposed to say? And “thanks” would have been more awkward, because she didn’t actually compliment you.

          Here’s my takeaway: no matter how “high up” people get, they can still do weird stuff.

          1. Just Elle*

            Haha you won’t catch me arguing with your take :) and yes I think that’s part of why I answered so weird, I couldn’t think of anything else on the fly (because like you said, thanks wouldn’t have worked).

            Unfortunately working in an organization full of engineers trying to be managers, I guess awkwardness is part of life.

          2. smoke tree*

            Agreed, she’s the one who made it weird. In the face of these non-compliments, I usually default to complimenting the thing itself (like, for the blazer, “oh yeah, I really like it, it’s so comfortable” or whatever makes sense). But I don’t think your response was weird at all. I’m guessing she’s a bit awkward, or a bit precious about her status, or both.

          3. Fortitude Jones*

            Yeah, that was the kind of comment you laugh at. The fact that she got upset and moved tells me that she has no sense of humor and needs to relax. Don’t mind her, Just Elle.

    3. CheeryO*

      Ehhh, that one is kind of on her for having no sense of humor. It IS awkward when you show up wearing the same thing as someone else! As long as you said it in a jokey way and not while staring into her soul like a serial killer, I think you’re fine.

      1. Just Elle*

        Haha I mean, to the best of my knowledge I don’t have a serial killer stare but you never know!

    4. Owlette*

      I think your response was hilarious. She was extremely rude. If your comment bothered her, why didn’t she say something?

    5. Lilysparrow*

      I don’t see anything wrong with that comment either. It was a light-hearted, meaningless pleasantry in response to her meaningless pleasantry.

      I wonder what she had in mind as the “correct” response?

      She’s definitely the one who made it wierd. Perhaps she was annoyed that you were not self-abasing enough?

      I have met some high-profile (or more often, big-fish-in-small-pond) people who believe they are being very magnanimous by treating the lesser mortals with jocular familiarity …but only as long as you demonstrate your deep humility and gratitude, and do not respond in kind.

  83. Anon4Now*

    Small company, 3 person department: me and Wonderful New Coworker (WNC) under Boss. Boss is great in big ways but has micromanagement tendencies and comes down hard on minor mistakes–defensive about own mistakes, rubs in others’ (insecurity? dominance games? pure pettiness? all of the above?). I’m a grizzled old-timer and it mostly rolls off my back (combo of fairly laid-back and conflict-averse), but WNC is sending signals they may not last. This has been a tough position to fill and I so want WNC to stay! WNC has plenty of skills/options and why should they put up with this nonsense, aka death by a thousand paper cuts? It’s demeaning and demoralizing and I totally understand that… is there any way I can go to bat for WNC? What would that look like? Boss is also very contrarian and I don’t have a great track record of convincing Boss of anything they didn’t already lean to. It’s frustrating because we have new company management and Boss has a past reputation for being difficult to work for/having high turnover–Boss is shooting themselves in the foot with this petty BS. Any advice or ideas?

    1. LaDeeDa*

      UGGG. Is he the needs to make it clear to himself and others that he is in charge? This is the boss that gets bogged down in minor details like font size instead of focusing on the big picture. They give little to no autonomy.
      It is best not to fight back. The best approach is getting to him before he can nitpick. Things like “Hey, I see you have a lot going on! Is there anything I can do to help/make things easier?” Also, look for areas to collaborate– ask open-ended questions and try to get as much input from him right away so he knows he already gave everything. Try to establish his wants/needs before something gets started. So if you know he always changes the teapot color, even though you are the designer, ask him beforehand for more specifics on details.
      Also, they like to know everything… so kill ’em with information, constant status updates. Once a day for high priority items and once a week for ongoing initiatives. Keep notes brief, listing the task you have just completed and the proposed next step, which should always be something that can be completed before the next update so he can see clear progress.
      Direct confrontation rarely ever works or turns out well. If there are 360 anonymous reviews or employment engagement surveys than I would answer truthfully. But if he has a reputation for all this and no one has addressed it so far, I doubt they will.

    2. Jules the 3rd*

      If he’s a true contrarian, then tell him ‘hey boss! If you want to get rid of WNC, keep doing [list of things that boss currently does, with examples from real life.] Most people dislike that and will find other jobs rather than deal with it.’

      My experience with people who have this tendency is that giving them a clear line from their actions to likely consequences helps, but make that consequence the *opposite* of what you want to have happen. So, with most people, you would say, ‘to *keep* WNC, stop doing X’ but here it’s ‘to *get rid of* WNC, keep doing X’.

      A joking tone can help reduce the conflict but a lot depends on your relationship with your boss and whether you joke around with them a little already.

      1. Anon4Now*

        Ooh, that’s a great suggestion, Jules 3 – will try it! Sounds like the kind of thing that might actually work with Boss! (and yes, we do joke around…)

  84. wandering_beagle*

    Does anyone here work as a clinical research coordinator? How did you get started? Is the field very competitive?

    I’m an IT project manager and I’ve been looking to change careers. In my searching, I learned about working in clinical research, specifically human clinical trials — it sounds fascinating to me and a good fit for what I’m looking for in my future career. In online searching, I haven’t really been able to get a good handle on how I would potentially pivot to a position like this. Would I need to go back to school to get a master’s (I have a bachelor’s in a non-science field)? Would I have to take a lower position as an assistant first?

    Thank you in advance!

    1. $!$!*

      I work in a hospital (I’m a social worker).
      The two person clinical research team in my system handles three different hospitals with a supervisor. Here are some general comments in random order:
      one has a BS in a non science; the other has a masters in I dunno what.
      The researchers have to work extensively with pharmaceutical companies who send auditors who usually have no idea what they’re doing (a lot of turnover)
      The researchers have to work extensively with doctors and documentation which can lead to some stressful issues
      The researchers have to maintain ethics with patients and informed consents (another hospital just signs patients up without proper discussion)
      A lot of these clinical trials are written with impossible standards for patient eligibility
      Good lord, the paperwork! It’s awful. Organization is key and so is documentation
      Unfortunately I don’t have any direct advice on how to get a job doing this or a salary range

    2. Public Health Nerd*

      I did this for 12 years, a great job for a long time. I don’t know that you need another degree. They’re really looking for people who can learn technical topics, have good social skills, and can stick to very picky rules and regulations. A lot of the beginner coordinator jobs are temporary because of grant funding – if you start with one of those you can often leverage that into other permanent positions. There are courses you can take to get certified, and while they can be handy if you want to go work for a contract research org, I don’t think it’s required in most areas. I’ve had great coordinators who were former lab techs, higher ed admin, and other fields. Anything where you have to follow a protocol or manual is relevant experience.

    3. Cheesecake2.0*

      I used to work at an R1 university and CRCs seemed to burn out real fast (Briefly was one myself). Most people used it as a starting point to get into project management or other research administration, or as something to do while they work on grad school applications. Most places will want the CCRC certificate, rather than a Masters. It tends to be a very fast-paced, mentally demanding job, depending on what type of research you end up doing. One of my friends works at the cancer center on campus working with women who have terminal breast cancer trying last-ditch experimental drugs. She did not get to pick this area at all and cannot transfer out for 2 years. It’s a very emotional job for her. On the other hand, when I was one, it was really boring and nothing traumatic, but getting rejected by potential participants all day, 5 days a week just made me depressed. The study I was on was low-stakes but high-time demand so no one wanted to do it, the PI designed it badly.

      As for how to get started… you’ll probably need to either do the certification program independently, or start as a research assistant/coordinator, before moving up to CRC.

      1. Sam*

        You may have already done this, but take a look at the SoCRA website. If this is an area you’re just starting to explore, CRC might not actually be the ideal role you’re looking for (or maybe it is, I don’t know). Look into the difference between CRC, CRA, CTA, and more. Do you want to work at clinical sites, or at a CRO with a site facing role, or even a sponsor. Use your IT experience to your advantage. Clinical operations work is heavily dependent on data management, so someone who understands IT systems is valuable.

  85. AnonyMoosewithTea*

    How can I stop being paranoid that my new job is going to suddenly take back the offer? Why is my lizard brain like this??

    2. Goose Lavel*

      Hopefully you’re not moving across the country for this position. An engineer friend of mine actually did move across the country for a new job, had enough advance planning time to purchase a home. Start the kids in school.
      New job laid them off two weeks into it.

      1. Fortitude Jones*

        Wow! That’s horrible. I hope your friend was given ample severance for the inconvenience.

        1. Goose Lavel*

          He got 6 weeks severance. It took him 4 months to find a new job and he almost lost everything. He’s doing well now.

    3. VlookupsAreMyLife*

      Would it help to frame it as an illogical move for them vs “OMG, I’m gonna screw this up?”

      This company CHOSE you out of all other applicants. They know what they need and they think YOU fit the bill. At this point, it would be a big waste of time & resources for them to just pull the offer. Even if you end up totally bombing (not that I think you will, of course), they’re still better off to bring you in & give it a shot.

      Sometimes I’m able to shut up my jerkbrain when I think about what is logical/beneficial for the other people involved. It helps when my worries are mostly fear-based, illogical, or due to anxiety.

  86. Introvert girl*

    Come across and weird job offers lately? Today when scrolling through recent job offers I came across a “Lead customer happiness owner”. They’ve been looking for a “Customer happiness owner” for over a month, still looking, but now they need a Lead as well. I have no idea what the position holds, but assume it has something to do with customer service.

    1. Dragoning*

      I’m not remotely surprised they’re still looking.

      I bet they’re a joy to work for, too. Imagining that interview…oof.

    2. VlookupsAreMyLife*

      Oh wow!!! “Owning” anyone’s happiness just is so unbelievably ridiculous, much less a customer’s. I can only imagine how one’s own happiness might be impacted should they take on such a role.

    3. Gloria*

      I bet it’s related to Customer Success, which is a combination of account management, customer support and sales.

  87. Sovereign HR*

    I have missed this thread for a year! Not this week! :)

    What are your thoughts on forced ranking?

    It’s that time of year in our department where 500 people are given a number that will result in next year’s schedule.

    I have been told that while top of the heap fight it out to be an even better employee, it unusually affects the upper middle person who is a good, strong, under the radar person who doesn’t play the game.

    Resentment is strong this time of year. The top 10% nitpick everything the other 10% have done that year.

    Personally, I don’t understand the person who has never called in in ten years. NOTHING has ever gone wrong in their life? A fever, a blown tire, a family emergency?

    We don’t have sick time at my job. Sometimes favors need to be called in, thereby people
    Keeping their perfect attendance. We’ve all done it. But when I am sick I call in. When others are sick they call in a favor. One call in can mean the difference between weekends off and graveyard.

    Thoughts?

    1. Just Elle*

      I just listened to a truly excellent podcast about forced ranking. Jocko Podcast episode #174. More about the right way to structure rankings, but good lessons for us all.

      1. Just Elle*

        I guess the first read through I missed the part where ranking impacted schedule. How truly bizarre. And attendance is basically the least important of performance criteria. I always used to hate ‘perfect attendance’ awards at school. Can you push back as a group like Allison says?

        1. Sovereign HR*

          One’s next 52 week schedule is ALWAYS based on the forced ranking.

          While a call in docks you only one tenth of a point, it matters when that tenth of a point affects you in front of 20 other perfect attendance employees.

          We had a person come in with strep one time. He said he couldn’t call in because of the bidding criteria. Was honest as could be. To be honest, I completely understood.

    2. Rainy*

      My only thought is not a helpful one, I’m afraid. Your department sounds like a shitshow of politics and internecine warfare.

    3. Psyche*

      Anything that incentivizes people to come in while sick (and probably contagious) is a terrible policy.

      1. Fortitude Jones*

        Yes. It’s also incredibly inconsiderate of people who are pregnant or are immunocompromised.

    4. Sovereign HR*

      We had a call-in policy where you could call in 30 times a year and not get penalized. People abused it (I know, right?) One day, they announced the forced ranking and those who had called in 27 times were….well, you know…

      I guess my question is: What is the appropriate and fair way to bid on a yearly schedule without the consequences of a forced ranking in a department of so many?

      I’m a 25 year employee. I am consistently rated high with a minor mistake every couple of years. There are very good people below me who work hard who will never be at the top because of seniority, which is a consequence of big business, and there are people above me who have been here longer who can play the game even better, not that I haven’t done my best to play as well, knowing the parameters.

      See the resentment?

      Please tell me what is the fairest way in terms of scheduling choices, when in terms of evaluations, 450 of the 500 are all rated EXACTLY THE SAME.

      1. Just Elle*

        I’m a manufacturing supervisor and have always, always, always seen scheduling tied to seniority alone. It’s kind of hard to be bitter about that because in reality it’s pretty fair. Pay is what’s tied to ranking. And ranking isn’t based on attendance because as you said, stuff happens. It’s based on “softer” evaluations (check out the Jocko Podcast I recommended for examples of a good forced ranking evaluation). And the point of actual forced ranking is to keep there from being 450 people with identical ranking. And good companies actually have time off / late policies because they realize that it’s a bad idea not to. So. There’s a lot to fix here.

    5. smoke tree*

      My guess about the person who never calls in is that they have someone else in their life who handles all the emergencies. Or maybe they just force themselves to come in regardless of the personal costs. Or some combination.

      In other news: this system sounds really condescending and awful. This kind of thing drove me crazy in school, and I was an actual child then.

      1. Seven hobbits are highly effective, people*

        Also, why in the world would you want to concentrate all of the people who never call in on the same shift, and all of the people with the most absences on another? Seems like a way to guarantee coverage problems.

  88. Garch*

    About two years ago I interviewed for a position at a local, larger business. I was told later it came down to me and one other candidate, they chose the other one based on the fact that they had previously interned. I was told they wanted to keep me in mind for future positions.

    Fast forward to today, and I’m again looking for new opportunities, including ones at this company. These roles are more senior to the one I interviewed for before, based on my new experience. Has too much time passed to reach out to the internal recruiter to give them my resume for consideration? Will it matter that these roles are more senior than the one I interviewed for previously? Thank you, readers!

    1. AnotherAlison*

      I would think it was totally appropriate to reach out to someone you worked through the hiring process before, whether that’s HR or the previous hiring manager. If I was the hiring manager, and both positions (then and now) were in my department, I think it looks weirder to keep applying without even acknowledging that you’ve already interviewed with me in the past. At a minimum, I’d apply online and send them a few sentence email saying you applied, enjoyed talking to them in the past, etc.

  89. Nisse Underfoot*

    I start a new job on Tuesday, and thanks to AAM, I feel like I did my due diligence about the company, asked some good questions during the interviewing process, and am fairly confident that this is going to be a good fit for me. It is a much bigger company than I have worked for before, so I know that I will need to observe the company culture for a bit to really make sure I have a grasp of it. That’s where my question comes in. I was told that they don’t have a dress code, which is completely new to me, as I have always worked places that were at least business casual, and I have no idea how I should dress for my first day of work next week. My inclination is to dress business casual and see what other people in my new department are wearing, then tailor my work wardrobe to something similar. If it helps, during my onsite interview, both my new manager and supervisor were wearing blue jeans with nice-ish tops. I worry that being in slacks and a blouse might make me seem overdressed and stand out as being uptight. Any suggestions?

    1. Countess Boochie Flagrante*

      On your first day I think being a bit overdressed is expected and forgivable, as long as you’re not completely out of step with what the job in general would expect (ie high heels if you’ll be working outside, open-toe in a lab, etc). It’s certainly better than being underdressed on your first day!

      1. dealing with dragons*

        plus they will probably take your employee picture for badges etc, so it’s always a good idea to not look like a hot pile of garbage for those ;)

        1. Nisse Underfoot*

          I actually had to pre-submit a picture for my badge, so that’s taken care of at least.

      2. Llellayena*

        I started an office job a while ago (essentially intern and general go-fer), showed up the first day in one step below interview clothes (upper end of business casual, heeled boots) and was promptly told they were sending me to dig things out of their off-site storage compartment. Said storage was rather disorganized with dusty boxes that has fallen over to completely block all of the access aisles. So my first day, in slacks, silky shirt, and heels, I was mountain climbing over dusty boxes…

    2. Just Elle*

      I like your inclination. No ones going to think twice of you wearing dress pants. Especially if you stick to not-black ones (khaki or grey). Its not uptight.

      My company went through an “empowerment” thing a few years back when we got rid of our dress code. Which doesn’t really mean “wear jeans and a t shirt” but more meant “we trust you to be grown ups who can figure out social norms for yourself.”

      Almost everyone wears business casual. I think a safe bet would be flats, dress pants, top, cardigan. Or, a dress and flats which is great because it can be both casual and professional. Just avoid standing out with things that could be “weird” like heels or blazers.

      Just don’t do what I did and assume that it was a jeans-casual place, when actually I interviewed on a Friday and everyone wears jeans – but only on Friday.

    3. AnotherAlison*

      I agree with your approach. I would probably lean towards the dressy casual side of my wardrobe more than the clearly business casual side. I disagree with Elle on the blazer because it’s kind of the perfect way to straddle casual and dressy. You could wear nice khakis, loafers, a fancy t-shirt cut top, and blazer with accessories and not be under-dressed for business casual, or you could take off the blazer and fit in with just casual. My personal business casual is more tailored slacks and sweaters or button-downs, which feels a little dressy when I’m with people in jeans and t-shirts.

      FWIW, my office has a dress code, and people wear everything from khaki pants with polo shirts and tactical boots to a suit w/o a tie. It’s stratified by level and role.

      1. Just Elle*

        Oh, thats true about blazer + t shirt/jeans. Love that look. Although blazer + dressy top is definitely more on the “stiff” side of the spectrum, so its a tough balance.

    4. Jules the 3rd*

      Keep in mind that in larger companies the culture can vary across different groups fairly significantly. Functions usually dress differently, so if you’re in a cross-functional role, watch what the most formal groups wear (usually accounting and customer-facing roles).

  90. Existentialista*

    Does anyone have a good suggestion for office coffee that’s environmentally sustainable?

    I work in an office with about 200 people, and the company provides coffee, which is prepared using a filter and served in pump thermoses, but the coffee comes in individually wrapped foil packages that are not recyclable, and I’m sure we go through about 50 per day.

    1. Mediamaven*

      My office is much smaller but I purchased a Jura – it was very expensive (for my small office) but worth it to me because there is just zero waste. No pods. Make a single cup at a time. Just pour the beans in and you are done. People can even make fancy drinks if they want. Plus the coffee tastes much better than anything else.

    2. Just Elle*

      We convinced my company to swap to sourcing bulk beans from a local coffee shop.

      The employee engagement team had some funds to get a big vacuum container to store it in, the local shop gave us a big bulk discount, everyone adores the coffee and “supporting local business.” The shop was more than willing to do deliveries for us since, like your company, its a huge amount of coffee. Plus we let them advertise what the ‘flavor of the week’ is next to the coffee stands.

    3. CheeryO*

      Hmm, it might be tough with that number of employees. Any chance you could get a different supplier with compostable packaging? Or at least someone more local to offset some of the environmental cost?

    4. FormerEmployee*

      If you are in the States, I highly recommend Batdorf & Bronson Coffee Roasters. Sustainability is a HUGE part of the company’s mission & values. And, the coffee itself is fantastic!

  91. SorryYouSawThat*

    Ugh… my boss and grandboss have agreed that it’s time to do a formal write-up for one of my employees. I agree with this decision. In a meeting with all of my team present, I was displaying my screen to review a new process. I right-clicked on the Microsoft icon in the taskbar so I could see recent documents as there was one related to the process that I wanted to show them. I remembered later that another recent document was the draft of this write up, clearly titled “Write Up Employee First Name Last Name.”

    I feel terrible. I don’t know who saw it, if anyone. No one has said anything. But I still feel really terrible.

    1. The Man, Becky Lynch*

      I think that it’s best left unspoken about with the team but you should really reach out to your boss/grandboss about the title issue! If you’re regularly sharing your screen, they need to understand that and be more discrete! That’s not your fault at all, you cannot know what emails or IMs are going to pop up [are you able to disable that feature though, I don’t know…I’ve never had to screen share so I don’t bother with that kind of thing. Since the other option is now it’s really something you can remember to turn off when you’re screen sharing, to avoid it in the future.]

      But really, that subject line needs to be not…like that.

    2. Jules the 3rd*

      Yes change the name, but unless someone says something to you, stop beating yourself up.
      1) Most people don’t read fast enough / pay enough attention to notice other file names
      2) Most employees are going to know that employee needs a write up; while you don’t want to talk about it to them directly, they’d probably be relieved to see something’s happening.

    3. Seven hobbits are highly effective, people*

      No advice on what you should do since this has already happened, but this is one of the reasons that I set my screen to “extend” rather than “mirror” for presentations. I then drag anything I want to show over to the extended screen rather than my “main” screen. This has bailed me out several times, but of course won’t work if you’re trying to show something complicated “live” and can’t see the projector screen well from where your computer is.

  92. Recruiter Woes*

    How do you re-introduce yourself to recruiters? When I first started looking 5 or 6 years ago I went out with a resume that wasn’t great and pretty much showcased the negatives and downplayed my experience in every possible way. I did manage to find a position, but it’s part-time contract work and I’m very definitely underemployed.
    I’ve been looking for full-time now (on and off) for 5 years. My resume is much better (thanks in part to this site!) but recruiters have a stranglehold on the job market here. Even when they call me in to interview for a new position (which many don’t bother with since that first interview 5 years ago) they pull my old resume from past applications or interviews and they give more weight to that one rather than listening to my new skills/new spin on my experience etc. For example, they had written questions and answers on my old resume and will ask me the same questions again but it’s easy to see they aren’t listening to my new answer. Is there any way to politely say hey, ignore the crap resume and stupid answers from the past and pay attention to the me in front of you now? It’s hard enough job searching and feeling like every day I’m losing skills because I’m not challenged enough without feeling like there’s no possible way I’ll get a full time job unless I move (which I can’t afford to do and also don’t want to do).

    1. Overeducated*

      Something is weird here. I feel like a recruiter looking at a 5 year old resume is not going to be finding you job openings at the right level. I’d push back and aggressively talk about your accomplishments in the last 5 years.

  93. Network Nuisance*

    I truly do not want to be That Person who reaches out to a colleague in a field that you want to be in because you are desperately searching for a job. How can I push away that mindset (because I am desperate for a job) and focus better on getting to know that person, their career path, and sorta get to…how can I (a new-ish grad) become like you? I think I have the questions in hand but I’m struggling with that anxiety in the back of my head that’s shouting “Please tell me how I can work where you are, which seems like the most magnificent place to be.” Anyone else struggle with this?

    1. CaseyJD*

      I wouldn’t worry too much. Most people are willing to help those just starting out, and enjoy sharing their experiences/expertise on their given field. Just be clear you want to learn from them, not expect a meeting to turn into a job offer.

    2. Lilysparrow*

      “Can I buy you lunch? I’m thinking of going into (your field) and wanted to get your advice on a few things.”

      This is a totally normal thing, just be sincere and keep it simple. You’re only That Person if you have a hidden agenda.

  94. Rowdy Rutabaga*

    Question for non-profit fundraisers:

    I’ve not been in a situation wherein the organization hired an ED and DD within the past 5 months. The last ED wasn’t really doing much for the last 6 (to 12) months before officially retiring in December. The DD position was 6 mos vacant before we hired the new DD in March.

    In your experience how long do you think it will take a new ED (new to being an ED, not new to non-profit and very connected in the city) and DD (new to fundraising, new to non-profit, and 8 years experience w/ this city) to get their bearings to generate non-grant funded dollars? I have a feeling it will be a year.

    In the meantime, cuts are being discussed and I’m not sure how much we can do without certain staff.

    1. LQ*

      One of my questions would be how involved is the board with fundraising? And are there any other people who do the fundraising work? I feel like the ED being connected to the city and having worked in nonprofits might be able to hit the ground running in 3 months with a solid board or staff. New to fundraising and new to nonprofit DD might have a lot further to go…

      1. Rowdy Rutabaga*

        Great question – sorry I didn’t offer that.

        My position isn’t very close to the Bd so my knowledge is limited to others speaking (i.e. complaining) about it. We have a 40-person Board, but engagement is low. While we have 60% Bd giving, they don’t bring in a lot of dollars. That’s due to no Bd expectations and the previous ED did not encourage or work with Bd members to do so. I feel the ED is working to change those expectations but that’s another Titanic to turn.

        Our DD is focused on the metrics and details of other issues (that we have competent staff assigned to manage all she needs to do is learn what they do) rather than learning how to fundraise and network to fundraise. She feels that until she has the exact funding numbers and program details in her hands, she can’t ask for money. I feel she’s letting perfection (she stated she’s a perfectionist) get in her way of getting out there.

        1. Lily Rowan*

          That does not sound like a good sign to me! A new DD’s first job should be getting to know the donor base, along with basics of the programming.

          But in general a new DD with no fundraising experience doesn’t sound like a good sign to me.

          I think a year sound right, if not longer.

          1. Rowdy Rutabagas*

            And that’s the challenge with this new DD; her approach to learning programs is very blunt. She has not made friends with the program’s director, leaving the PM out of conversations with the ED on things that affect programs.

            When the DD should be learning, she’s simultaneously thinking about how improve it regardless if it needs to be fixed or not. I’ve had a conversation with her about how fundraisers and programs should work together, as I’ve done both roles. the thing I liked about grant writing and fundraising is that you get to know about how the whole organization works from operations, programs to volunteering because the grants and funding you’re going for affect all those areas. She doesn’t seem to have the same inquisitiveness and awareness. She’s very business operations focused which is hindering her ability or desire to go out and start making relationships.

        2. LQ*

          Yeah and giving from the board doesn’t matter (I mean it does, and 60% not willing to give a buck would worry me, especially with a 40 person board, that’s huge!) having the board have solid fundraising connections would be what would be beneficial. But based on this update? A year feels like it might not be enough. With that much work to do you might have an already connected ED be able to pull -a- single rabbit out of the hat, but that’s not really going to cut it. I’d be worried.

          1. Rowdy Rutabagas*

            I was afraid of that. Due to the changing dynamics, which is inevitable when you get to two new leadership staff, several people are looking for jobs. I’ve dabbled as well. I think it says a lot when you have staff not seeing themselves rallying for the mission, despite the new characters. and that the new characters are not trying to ingratiate themselves with the existing staff.

    2. Bex*

      If the ED has existing connections to funders, they could feasibly start pulling in some funds in 6-9 months. A DD new to fundraising AND nonprofits (did I read that right???)… I would assume around 18 months to get new money, maybe longer depending on the exact field, specifics of the funding landscape, etc.

      The bigger issue is often the state of the projects though. Do you have the right fundraising materials? Clear goals, outcomes, theory of change, etc?

      1. Rowdy Rutabagas*

        We do not have a comprehensive development strategy or plan, as of yet. A recent staff retreat, during which we did a SWOT analysis of the development program, gleaned potentially actionable next steps but those haven’t been fleshed out. I think the ED and DD are waiting to see what the June board retreat will reveal.

        The previous DD, who left 6 months ago, was very good at what she did and had a decent partnership with the past ED (the past ED and DD had worked their way up through this nonprofit and understood all the facets of the organization). So you can imagine a new ED and DD, with no prior brand or role experiences, trying to put those relationships back on track, which wouldn’t be as challenging if the board was engaged and could put everybody together.

        1. Bex*

          Honestly, there seem to be a ton of red flags here:
          – no fundraising plan
          – low board engagement and low board giving
          – a lead fundraiser who doesn’t know how to fundraise, and isn’t building strong internal relationships
          – unclear funding needs/budgets
          – possible cuts to projects (which often makes it harder to fundraise)

          Unless there is a ton of multiyear grant funding, I would probably be looking for another job.

          1. Rowdy Rutabagas*

            Two staff said they’ve started to looking. Whether or not they’ll follow through (one is a single mom, another is married and expecting a second baby next month) is to be seen. I can understand the big decisions they have. I’m financially and professionally fortune: I can stay or leave without much consequence. I worry about my coworkers and I don’t want to be the organization lifeguard.

  95. The Man, Becky Lynch*

    I’ve come to the realization that I am in the most physically stagnant job I’ve ever had in all my years. Prior jobs had me doing inventory or receiving tasks, so I was out of my desk at least 25% or more a day. Now I am tied to my desk because we’re so efficient and well staffed, which I’m not complaining about that part at all but it’s taking a toll on my health. I’ve put on weight and it’s starting to make my back go out more frequently and lead to some gnarly sciatica.

    Does anyone have any tips or ways that they’ve combated being in a seated position day in and a day out?

    I’ve started setting an alarm so I can get up and take a walk. I’ve doubled my daily steps already by just using my breaks/lunch time and also always walking to the mailbox. But are there any exercises or little gadgets youv’e found that you can do in an office. I’m in my own office so I have privacy but of course I’m not going to bust out my yoga mat mid-day [however tempting it is because I could probably get away with it but I’m trying to adult here!]

    1. Red Reader the Adulting Fairy*

      If one is inclined to use such a thing, fitbits and smartwatches often have a “get up and move around some” reminder built into them, as well as gamifiying movement with achievements and visual trackers.

      You might also take a look at some of the under-desk bike pedalers? basically just a set of pedals on a little stand, the idea being even if you’re not working up a powerful sweat, it’s still at least a little bit of movement that’s consistent and ongoing. You’d need to have leg room under your desk though, or you could maybe put it off to the side if you spend a lot of time on phone calls or teleconferences.

      Standing desk, or one of those doohickeys that lets you switch between standing and sitting? Varidesk or versidesk or whatnot?

      1. The Man, Becky Lynch*

        I’m working my way towards talking my boss into a standing desk option [the ones that go up and down because I don’t want to be forced to stand all day either because humans aren’t meant to do that either *hard sigh*]

        I’ll have to see what the clearance are about the foot peddlers because that one really sets well with me because I have nervous bouncy legs often anyways after a few cups of coffee.

        1. AnonyMoosewithTea*

          If you can get your doctor to write you a note that you need a standing desk, they will have to say yes. My boss needed one for his back but I knew the guy responsible for ordering them would put it off for 1.5 years because he is a horrible procrastinator. I suggested he get a note from his doctor and give it to our HR guy. Two weeks later the desk was up and running. ;)

          1. The Man, Becky Lynch*

            It’s mostly on me, I hate asking, I’m a miser and also hate admitting I need something “special” despite the logic behind it all! My boss is not a tyrant and I’m the one who orders things, I just need to get permission =)

            But this is great advice if anyone out there is struggling to get a boss to accommodate their needs. Also a nice button to push is “This could be classified as a work-place related illness if we go through workers comp for it”.

    2. ThinMint*

      I had a coworker who started “FOUR O CLOCK FRUIT” which meant she got up out of her seat every day at 4, took a lap around the hallways of the office, and offered fruit to anyone who wanted it.

      I realize that isn’t an amazing solution to your problem, but it got her out of her seat, built rapor, and got us through that final hour before the work day ended.

      I haven’t worked with her for more than 7 years and I still think of that and smile.

      1. The Man, Becky Lynch*

        That’s a really lovely idea! It wouldn’t work here because we’re so small and spread out but I like the idea in the right space.

        I have started bringing in fruit and putting it in a “fruit bowl” in the breakroom. This means I get to get up and go get it, instead of keeping it in my office. It doesn’t fly quickly, so it’s not like I won’t get a piece every day until it needs to be refilled. I also like that I can buy fruit in bulk without it going to waste. At home a bag of apples will just wither away after awhile. I wasted so many delicious mandarin oranges due to that issue.

    3. My leg warmers bring the boys to the yard*

      Sounds corny but Leslie Sansone walking from home videos https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCVl6ZdslZz2Zj-34bMJFPbg You can move about without having to leave the office. Set your alarm for a few minutes and do some of her workouts which are low-impact and uses a lot of arms, too which will raise your heart rate. You can then use her moves in your daily walks.

      A light (usually green) resistance band (can buy online or at your local fitness/equipment store) for muscle/stretching workouts for all upper body. While sitting all day, we also tend to hunch over, use bad postures, and stress our backs/upper torso.

      While you’re walking, make sure you stretch your arms, back, and legs. Front kicks, leg curls, touch your insoles.. (you’ll see all that from Leslie’s videos) that you can do yourself.

      I inherited a balance disc (from another office) which I use while standing. It helps with posture and balance, sitting and standing. There are balance disc exercises on YouTube.

      I’m like you and I take the stairs up/down to another floor to use the restroom as well as when my alarm goes off. I feel your pain and concern for sitting so long. They say it’s the new ‘smoking’

      1. The Man, Becky Lynch*

        Corney/gimmicky is my fave, I just emailed myself the link to keep for later!

        I need to buy new resistance bands, so this reminds me to replace that! Thank you, thank you. I used to use one to stretch but then got sidetracked and stopped. Turns out the junky bands I had bought if you don’t use them and they sit for a little while [like a couple months] they are brittle AF. They’re so cheap, I’m not even mad but getting snapped was no fun.

        BALANCING DISC. That’s a new one too, I will get one of those when I get my bands.

        Our offices are upstairs and the production is downstairs. So whenever I can I go up and down the stairs or go find people to talk to them. I shun the phone, I want to throw it out the window [we’re seriously not big enough to call each other, it drives me crazy].

        1. My leg warmers bring the boys to the yard*

          AMEN.. “we’re seriously not big enough to call each other, it drives me crazy” but then we do or we email one another… I came from working from home with a lot of time to walk about. It’s been an adjustment and I’m always forgetting to set my alarm to remind me to move, relying more on my bladder or coffee habit to get me up.

    4. LGC*

      The alarm idea is good. I’ve started wearing my running watch regularly since it has a move alert (that is annoying, but effective). So if you’re okay with using a Fitbit or the like, that would work well!

      (The only problem with mine is that I have to walk ~100m to clear mine. My office…is not 100 meters long. So generally I only clear it if I go outside.)

      Other than that, would you be able to get a convertible desk (or a standing desk)? From what I’ve heard, the problem isn’t just sitting for long periods, it’s also being in the same position for long periods.

    5. wingmaster*

      I feel you. Here’s what I do:

      -I always take two breaks to walk (11am / 3pm) around the building. It’s about a 10 minute walk around my building.
      -I take advantage of my full lunch hour to walk some more. I am able to eat my lunch while working, so this is a great advantage for me.
      -I’m a tiny, short person, so making sure your desk is ergonomically correct is important. I have a food rest under my desk. I also have a wrist pad by my keyboard too. You could even invest in a standing desk, if work allows it.
      -Lastly, I changed the way I ate. I would feel SO GROGGY coming to work everyday – always wanting to take naps, getting eye strains from looking at the computer 8 hours a day, feeling even more groggy after lunch. Even if I did all those walks. You hear people talk about the 80/20 concept, and it’s helped me.

      1. The Man, Becky Lynch*

        I have the opposite problem, size wise. I’m a giant, not just the girth but my legs make sitting in the back of a car tragic at times.

        Changing your eating is huge too! I had to make myself start eating breakfast a few years ago for exactly that reason. I’m not a breakfast person but also that drop in blood sugar by lunch was tragic for my over all health. I’m like Terry on Brooklyn Nine Nine now, leave me to this bowl of hard boiled eggs, I need protein in the morning! [Okay it’s two hard boiled eggs but if I’m ever in such impeccable shape, I look forward to an entire bowl!]

    6. The Rain In Spain*

      Agree with many- standing desk is great (i have one that goes up and down and i LOVE it), and you’re already doing many of the things I’d suggest- walking during breaks and lunch, etc.

      My fitbit has an option to buzz me every hour (i set the 8-hr time frame) to move around and get at least 250 steps. I’m not always able to do so, but it is a nice reminder that I’ve been sitting for a while. Also, there are plug-ins you can download (or phone apps) to remind you to switch between sitting and standing.

      That said, you can totally do some stretches/squats/push-ups/wall-sits/triceps dips/lunges/etc in your office. Just close your door for 10-15 min and knock some out :)

    7. Amber Rose*

      Yep, me too. I take as many walking breaks as I can. There’s also a seated stretch I do for the sake of my lower back. Cross your left leg over your right leg. Slightly twist your torso towards the left while pulling your left knee towards your right shoulder. Hold, then switch to the other leg.

      It stretches the lower back and hip and feels nice.

    8. Mme Pince*

      I just told my boss I have back issues and asked if it would be too odd to use my exercise mat in my office to do my back exercises. For what it’s worth, she was unfazed and seemed to think the benefit of more productive, less pained work was a swell trade-off for a little time spent on exercises.

      1. The Man, Becky Lynch*

        I’m glad that she reacted so well! As she should.

        If it were something like PT, I would just do it and not even blink. I do stand up and stretch when my boss comes in to chat for a bit, since we tend to stand in doorways and chatter instead of sitting, unless it’s an actual meeting of sorts, you know? But since I’m in that weird zone of “I just need something for physical fitness” instead of in a case like yours where you need to take care of an injured body part, I feel strange going all in just yet. But I’m such a relaxed quasi-professional, the only reason I’m like “I will not do yoga in my office…will not do yoga in my office” is trying to keep some kind of boundaries mainly so I don’t just start treating this place like I live here ;)

    9. Owlette*

      I might be misunderstanding, but did your current job have you running around doing inventory and now the inventory has stopped? Do you think it would be possible to ask your boss if you could handle the majority of the inventory again? Maybe one of your coworkers hates inventory or is bad at it and you could trade some job duties?

      I second the suggestion of a Fitbit. There are also a lot of discreet exercises you can do at your desk, like rolling and stretching your chin/neck, raising and stretching your arms, rolling your shoulders, and bending and lifting your knees. I googled “office desk exercises” and found a lot of suggestions!

      Maybe you could ask your coworkers if anyone would like to start a walking group with you?

      And then there are the usual suggestions of parking farther away from your office and taking the stairs instead of the elevator. You could also use a smaller water bottle than you’re used to so that you have to walk to the water cooler more often to fill it up.

      1. The Man, Becky Lynch*

        No, my current job has never had me doing anything remotely physical. My previous jobs had me climbing all over the place, so now that I’ve been here for well over a year, without that added physical aspect, it’s screaming at me.

        Now that so many have mentioned a Fitbit, I feel like I am slowly being able to justify it. It came to mind the other day because I usually use my phone to count steps but I’m really bad at remembering to grab it these days so I’m missing out on exact numbers. As an accounting person, numbers are my thing and keep me motivated!

        1. T. Boone Pickens*

          Ha, yes I came here to suggest hydration as well as it has two fold benefits, you keep moving and being properly hydrated keeps the metabolism moving.

          If you’re physically able, body weight squats and lunges could be really helpful. I feel like those exercises give you the best bang for your buck in terms of working the most amount of muscles and doing a nice job of raising your heart rate up. You can crank out a quick circuit in 15 minutes (or even shorter) and get a nice workout in.

          I also want to echo the other posters who urged you to ask for a standing desk. I sympathize with you as someone who is reluctant to ask for stuff because my lizard brain tries to trick me into thinking that asking for stuff that would make me a more productive employee=weak employee that is a burden.

          1. The Man, Becky Lynch*

            This reminds me that I have ankle weights in my trunk…

            That makes me sound like a serial killer, omg. I have a lot of random things in my trunk! I got them for when I go hiking, lol.

    10. dealing with dragons*

      I have alarms set up to get up and do some light stretches as well, as sitting at your desk can make certain parts of your body get bad flexibility, like the hips. I also do wrist etc stretches since I type a lot.

      My other suggestion is drink a lot of water, then you have to pee a bunch lol

    11. Lilysparrow*

      I tend to ignore alarms if I’m in the middle of something. Are there any tasks that you could make less efficient or use as triggers to stand up? Like, I always make phone calls, sort papers/do filing, and open mail standing up.

      I also drink a lot of water or tea, which requires one trip for refills and a separate trip for bathroom breaks.

      I also used to hand-deliver stuff to colleagues instead of using interoffice mail, unless it was an unreasonable situation.

  96. Rabbit*

    Since it’s come up a couple of time and I realised I don’t actually know… How do you find a tailor/someone who can adjust clothes? I am relatively new to a job in which suits/suit-equivalent formality is going to be necessary fairly regularly, and while I have one proper suit and a couple of outfits that theoretically fit those guidelines some weight variation over the past few months means they don’t all fit as well as they should/I don’t feel 100% comfortable.

    But I don’t actually know how to go about it aside from just …. google? How can I tell what I should be looking for and how much I should pay? For context, I live in London but am happy for advice from elsewhere – either I can take it into account or someone else might find it useful.

    1. Rusty Shackelford*

      My favorite tailor owns a bridal/formalwear shop; you could check with some of those and see if they offer alterations. Dry cleaners often have someone who does alterations as well. Can’t address the cost, though – I live in a small town!

      1. Rabbit*

        Thanks! yeah there seem to be a few drycleaners nearby who have a random wedding dress sitting in the window who I assume might do it, but a lot of them are the kind of small business who won’t have a very thorough website and I’d have to do the awkward price/service enquiry in person which is just irritating

    2. Not All*

      I ask other short people I know if they have someone they use. I’m short & round so mostly looking for people to hem. Prices are so regional it’s really hard to say. I used to bring everything to a wonderful Vietnamese family business who kept my measurements on file and would hem pants & shirts for $5-10 depending on material and actually did some more complicated stuff on my wedding dress for just $50. On the other hand, around here its $20+ just to have a pair of pants hemmed!

    3. Liz*

      Are you on social media? Do you have a town/community etc page or group? I see TONS of requests, and responses for recommendations for all kinds of things in my town’s FB page. Plumbers, best restaurants for take out, catering, and tailoring. I found someone (who i have seen get great reviews but haven’t yet used) for tailoring that way.

      1. WellRed*

        +1. Especially if you can say what types of tailoring you need (like, taking in high quality business suits for a 6ft, 10 inch man who weighs 95 pounds soaking wet).

      2. Auntie Social*

        Yes. I was thinking Nextdoor, so the LW finds a tailor in her neighborhood.

    5. Ron McDon*

      Seconding Facebook recommendations – I’m in the UK, and people in my friend group are always asking for recommendations on a wide range of things.

      I know it doesn’t match with what you’re asking, but both Slaters Menswear and Charles Tyrwitt offer free alterations if you buy from them, and they both have good sales/offers through the year. It might be worth checking their websites if you have one nearby to see if they offer paid-for tailoring on items not bought with them.

  97. How Long?*

    How long did your last job search take you?

    I’m trying to be picky about the next job I pick because I do not want to end up in another toxic job, but it’s been 4 months now and I’ve only found 5 jobs or so that I feel I would be interested in doing the work/good at doing the work in the surrounding cities. (No past the interview stage.) I want to desperately jump to a job at a Starbucks, but know I couldn’t sustain myself that way and staying in this position might harm my health but looks better on the resume. So I’m wondering how long did your last job search take you? And at what point were you like “Ok. I’m applying to jobs outside of my comfort zone now.” ?

    3. Not All*

      There are rarely more than a handful of vacancies nationwide at my level in my specialties each year so I generally assume 1-2 years on a search.

    4. The Rain In Spain*

      About 8 months. I had gotten to the point that I had to leave my toxic job, and was fortunate enough to have enough saved up and enough income from my SO to allow me to do so before I found my current job (which I love). I understand feeling the pressure, but since you are dealing with a toxic situation currently, I want to encourage you to keep being selective and focus on finding something that’s a good fit for both you and the employer.

      Networking made the biggest difference for me- and in my case, it was unintentional (met a friend of a work friend at a private, non-work, celebratory event). That led to my application getting forwarded immediately and an interview being set up (it still took a few months from the first interview to offer). Are there any professional organizations that host networking events that may be helpful for you?

      1. How Long?*

        There are some professional orgs that I know of! But they don’t meet until Fall. I have been networking with some people in the area and get along with them great. Sometimes I feel a little hopeless since nothing has been popping up in their departments, but they would like for me to work with them. I’ll keep up the hunt!

    5. Not Me*

      I was very lucky with my current job, it was the first position I applied for so technically my “search” lasted about a day.

      Before that though, when I was laid off (position moved to a different city) it took me about 7 months to find something new. Only about 4 of those were hard core serious looking though.

    8. Bortus*

      1.5 years but I was changing fields from an enterprenuer job I had had for 20+ years.

    9. ThatGirl*

      My last job took 4 months from serious beginning to offer. About 5 total. But I was unemployed and very motivated.

    10. T. Boone Pickens*

      General rule of thumb is add one month for every $10k you’re looking to make in salary.

    11. dealing with dragons*

      About a year, but I’ve been slow since I have a good job that doesn’t really care what I do.

  98. LGC*

    How can I get our senior manager to be more specific in his requests? Basically, he tends to ask for reports without stating why he’s asking. For example, he asked me to pull up a list of what an employee had worked on for a project, but did not mention that he’d wanted to see which tickets the employee had done multiple jobs on until I’d already sent him the first part of the information and he had sent a second request casually mentioning that he needed the second request to figure that out.

    I’ve mentioned in the past that he can get a better answer if he just states what he needs ahead of time, but he tends to forget. Should I just start asking him for information on advance on all requests?

    (For what it’s worth, he’s senior to me, but I don’t directly report to him. I have a standard report that I send out, but that’s more geared towards showing how productive an employee is.)

    1. LaDeeDa*

      Yes, just ask him. “So I can make sure the correct fields are shown, what is the report intended for?” Or you can even have an “order form” and let him tick off the available fields to show in the report.

        1. LaDeeDa*

          My LMS admin kept complaining to me that when people submitted training to be uploaded they weren’t giving her the required information and she would have to email them multiple times. I suggested creating a request form. It took care of 90% of the problems she was having. It also helped up with tracking and reporting, and we were able to identify we had a lot of different departments creating similar mandatory training, which ultimately saved departments time and money. WIN!

      2. LGC*

        The problem is actually getting him to comply! It took me a while to get him to remember to give me the employee ID (there are hundreds of employees, and the database doesn’t have names).

        I’ll definitely remember to ask him in advance of running a report – sometimes I forget to do that.

    2. Temperance*

      I would clarify all report requests with him. So when he emails you and asks for a report, respond by confirming what you’re going to run and what it includes, and get his approval.

  99. Western Rover*

    I posted three weeks ago asking about my daughter who got an offer from teapots while milk jugs at the same company still had her interviewing. I got some good advice for which I’m thankful and I want to leave an update:

    My daughter was open about everything at the second interview, including her preference for milk jugs over teapots. Soon after the interview, milk jugs said they would make an offer, but she would need to decline the teapot offer first. She crossed her fingers and declined teapots, and got the milk jug offer. She has now worked almost a full week in milk jugs and enjoys the job (her first full-time) and likes her co-workers.

    She was still quite nervous even after getting the offer she wanted, as it was contingent on a background check and she had already given two weeks’ notice to her part-time retail job. The background check company would ask for weird stuff on their website, e.g.: upload either first (!) pay stub or W-2s from every year worked, but while she was scrambling to find the documents the website would update and indicate it wasn’t needed anymore. Fortunately the check was completed barely in time to make her original start date (same start date as the first declined offer).

  100. MuseumChick*

    Very random question but I’m curious if this happens in other industries! In museums there is a role called “Collections Manager”, this role is responsible for the physical care of the artifacts (AKA the collection). It’s technically different from a Curator but the responsibilities typically over lap *a lot* since most museums cannot afford to have both a Collections Manager and a Curator.

    At every museum I have worked, every time a Collections Manager role has been advertised we would get a ton of application from people who clear thought the role was for calling people to pay bills/debts. Obviously this is in large part to people not reading the job description.

    What I’m curious about is if this happens in other fields. Is there a role in your field that has a title that people outside of the field constantly misunderstand?

    1. AvonLady Barksdale*

      Oh yes. I do a specific type of research for a specific industry, and people used to point me to management consultancies and financial firms all the time. “Goldman Sachs is looking for a research analyst!” Nope, not what I do.

    2. L.S. Cooper*

      I’m a “retail operations specialist”, which sounds like one of those BS titles people give to customer service employees to make them… feel better, I guess? I don’t work in the stores, and I’m not a customer help person– I support the retail stores themselves!

    3. Amber Rose*

      I used to work for a civil engineer doing land word like construction layout. We had several Surveyors on staff, they were the people who would go out to the construction sites and leave the big painted wooden stakes in the ground marking where the digging had to happen and how deep.

      We put up a job ad for a Surveyor with a careful description of the work involved. We got a TON of applications from people who had jobs doing phone surveys. :/

      2. Errol*

        My ex was a surveyor and did that for about 7 years and wanted to stop working in the field. A few times he ended up in an interview with someone talking phone surveys and they were equally confused about the other’s work which was very very amusing for me.

    4. Not an IT person*

      I work in information. In my case it means facts. But I get a lot of LinkedIn requests from people who think I work in IT security.

    5. Well, I am the curator*

      My title is curator but I am actually the manager of a special collection. My reports are archivists, catalogers, and processors. I just tell people that I am a librarian.

  101. saturninus*

    I have been told multiple times by my boss / big boss / biggest boss that they want to promote me. Several months ago I was asked for ideas on where I wold like to be in my organization. I’m told that my biggest boss wants to put that plan into action. A few weeks ago, my big boss reassigned some of my work in anticipation of a meeting I would have with my biggest boss. The meeting hasn’t happened yet and I’m sitting here with limited things to do. I’ve asked my boss to give me some short term assignments while I wait for a meeting. Reaching out directly to my biggest boss is not generally appropriate in my line of work but at the same point I don’t know if she realizes that I don’t know what my new job is. Should I reach out to her? Is it appropriate to be annoyed that some of my job (a part of my job I enjoy) has been taken away without discussing it with me first?

  102. Red Reader the Adulting Fairy*

    Update on the lying sugar bowl manager and terrible terrible sugar bowl painter who is failing at teapot design, from two weeks ago: She still fails at teapot design and has completely muffed both aspects of her PIP (one to pass 3 trainings out of 10 attempts, so far she’s failed 8 in a row, and one to pass all her regular quality reviews, she’s passed one out of 7), and boss and grandboss are meeting with HR on Tuesday to find out just how much of this nonsense we have to keep going through. She has applications in for transfer positions, but our org is notoriously slow at hiring and processing transfers.

    My co-lead is not following the directions on documenting her failures, so all the PIP tracking is falling to me, and we just had a support staffer resign with her last day being yesterday, so I get to pick up all that work for the next few weeks too. (The idea of Trainee the Terrible being transitioned into that support role was floated briefly, but thank heaven, shot down almost immediately.)

    1. valentine*

      Since you’re handling the PIP alone, why doesn’t co-lead do the support work alone?

      I hope you’re job searching.

      1. Red Reader the Adulting Fairy*

        Nah — the support staffer was working with a program that our powers-that-be are structuring a new position for that will be a promotion for me, and now that I’ve actually seen what she did, I have no idea how she kept busy for eight hours a day. The PIP stuff will be off my plate in about two weeks, if not sooner. It’ll be fine, this too shall pass, Friday was just a lot of SURPRISE! all in one glob :)

  103. Murphy*

    I am switching jobs (yay!) and going from being a team of one who sits alone at their desk all day to being on a team of several people in the same position. I’m so excited, but I’m also nervous about actually having co-workers, particularly because I’m socially anxious/socially awkward. Any advice for this transition?

    1. irene adler*

      Do what you probably already do best- listen.
      Show interest in the conversation.
      Everybody loves a good listener.

      (Yes- okay to ask questions too. Just don’t overload your listener)

  104. Ihmmy*

    Curious how offices without a main desk / reception / office area work out? I work in post secondary and they are planning on moving the non-teaching part of our department to a different part of the building, and in the process we will no longer have an official main office. Currently the main office serves as a hub for mail, deliveries, student questions, lost people getting directions, document/text drop off and pickup, etc. so we have to reconsider how to run all those operations. This is a very public facing space, not like a private business where no one visits without it being scheduled.

    1. Admin of Sys*

      Signs. Lots of very obvious signs, that people will mostly ignore and stick their head into the first open office they see. But as someone in higher ed, there were /tons/ of buildings on campus whose front door opened up into a featureless hallway or a collection of couches or whatever non-lobby solution the architecture provided. The only way to find where you were going was when the school (hopefully) hung large brightly colored signs with arrows at the front door and at the next 3 major intersections until you found lost and found or student affairs or the dean’s office.
      If it’s a particularly confusing set of hallways, maps are also a beautiful idea, but again – folks will likely attempt to deal with the first open door they find.

  105. LeaveMeAlone*

    For the HR & Management people out there, has anyone utilized a 3rd party administrator for Leaves & Disabilities that they were happy with and were effective? I’m in my 4th large organization in 20+ years and 3 of the 4 farmed the leave process out, which was nothing but a hindrance and a headache for the HR & Managers managing LOA (not to mention horrible the Employee experience, but that’s another issue). The only place that had a good system was the organization that had an in-house team of specialized Leave Administrators.

    1. The Man, Becky Lynch*

      Farming out any part of your department like that is absolutely terrible in my experience. You cannot trust a third party to care or put your employees as priority, they’re just another client, just another piece of paper. Unlike when your dedicated HR are part of the same company and possibly know these employees on some kind of personal level, so you have that little bit of investment in Joe Smith’s life being made easier or efficient, you know?

      Thankfully I do everything in house, except the insurance because we’re too small to administer it ourselves and it requires a broker. It’s the worst thing ever and our broker is actually very good and thoughtful and has our back but still…it’s that extra person between you and the end product you’re working for. Just yikes.

      Which does’t do you much help here since you already know that but yeah, no there is nobody, unless you get someone who’s a really small organization that has a great staff that cares like our broker does that ever relieves the hate and loathing you have for these 3rd party administrators :(

  106. Fey*

    My job searching saga continues.

    Earlier this week I applied for a remote HR generalist role that works closely with the CEO. The job description states that the role needs to overlap with only 70% of his work day. My timezone is six hours ahead of his. I figured I’d be starting my work day around 2 or 3pm, which would have been ideal. I like to work out, do yoga, run errands, etc. in the morning anyway. The application required I send “short” videos to answer three generic questions, namely:
    – tell us about yourself
    – why do you want to work for us
    – why do you think you’re a great fit for the position

    To prevent from rambling, I wrote out a script to read from, while also making sure to insert pauses, facial expressions, chuckles, and even a few “umm’s” to not look like I was dictating. I placed the script behind my iPad, just above the camera lens, so I made eye contact with the camera at all times. Y’all, I went all out. Only after trying to upload the recording did I find out that the time limit per video was 1 min. So I had to spend a bit of time editing my script and speaking a little faster. I thought I did pretty well. At a minimum I thought I’d get an interview. My skills and experience fit the JD to a T.

    Not 24 hours later, I got a response. A rejection. We’ve decided not to move forward with you. No further explanations. Fueled by disappointment and bewilderment, I decided to reply and ask why he didn’t think I was a great fit for the role. After all, my skills and experience align. “Did you identify any key qualifications for this job which were missing in my background? Is it my lack of previous experience working remotely? Is it that there is a gap in my employment? Or is my expected salary too high? Because that’s certainly negotiable,” I rattled on. I wasn’t really expecting him to reply.

    He did.

    You have a strong resume and presented as a good candidate. I agree that your experience is very relevant.

    There are two reasons why I decided that the other candidates at this stage have stronger applications:

    1. While it was obvious that you would be able to do the job, your application lacked personality. I would’ve loved to see more of Fey, because ultimately we hire people over skills.

    2. Your timezone is not ideal; my average work day would be 2pm – 11pm for you.

    Uh. I am nothing if not !!!personality!!! So it’s a damn shame he didn’t think it translated well in the videos. Not sure what he was really after. More spontaneity? Less planning? More personal rather than pragmatic? FWIW, I pretty much followed Alison’s model from these posts (https://www.askamanager.org/2014/02/the-most-common-job-interviews-questions-and-how-to-answer-them.html & https://www.askamanager.org/2012/04/how-to-answer-tell-me-about-yourself-in-a-job-interview.html) especially for question #1, and said nothing of my hobbies or family. I wonder if that was something he was looking for? The company makes a big deal about being life- and family-first so…it’s not I’m possible. Or maybe nothing I’d have said would have made one iota of difference. He didn’t like what I had to say and the way I said it, plain and simple.

    I am quite cheesed off by the timezone thing, however. The JD said 70% overlap – I was in fact prepared and eager to overlap by 100%. If he didn’t think the HR generalist starting their work day at 2pm was ideal for whatever reason, he should have just specified his preferred timezones. I’d understand his concern if it would have been 2am my time, but 2pm is perfect. The JD says he doesn’t travel much, so it’s not like our time differences would have fluctuated wildly. So I call BS on this one and concede that he just doesn’t like me for the role. Which sucks, but he’s entitled to it. It is his prerogative.

    Oh, and update on the disastrous interview I went on where the interviewer and would-be manager was judgy about my choice of the iPad to do my presentation even though I’d gotten her prior approval to do so – she said I’d hear back in a week. Rightly or wrongly, I didn’t bother sending a thank you email after the interview since I wasn’t really thankful about it. Anyway, it’s two weeks later and…crickets. I’d have thought she’d love to officially reject me and use the chance to disparage me, but she doesn’t even think I’m worthy of that, I guess? It’s all good, I’m not hurt, so that’s that.

    1. saturninus*

      You wanted an answer and he gave you one. If the goal of your email was to “rattle on” and vent, it’s better to post your feelings here or share them with friends than send them to a prospective employer. I doubt any response he gave would have satisfied you.

      1. Fey*

        The goal of my email was to get an answer and I did get it, correct. And I said it sucks but also concede that it’s his prerogative. The rattling on was in reference to the fact that I asked many questions in one go. I most definitely was not looking to vent to him!

      2. Kwebbel*

        With all due respect, I don’t know how helpful this response from saturnius is. I’m sure you meant well, mate, but job seeking is a miserable, frustrating, and often thankless season, and Fey, I’d like to try and meet you where you are.

        I feel your pain. I really do. My first job search took 84 applications and dozens of interviews. It was miserable. I got rejection after rejection with explanations that left me dumbfounded. Most of the time, there was nothing I could take away from those explanations that could steer me on the right track. Tips like “have studied something other than the thing you studied” or “be someone that is not who you currently are” didn’t really offer anything that could work on in time for my next interview. So, regarding the feedback that the CEO needed more personality from you: yeah, I can imagine that this wasn’t a tip you could really use. Any many people have issues with video interviews precisely because they feel they can’t show much of their true selves when they are timed and staring into a computer while recording their answers. You are in good company!

        There’s not much I can offer besides cold comfort except to say that, if you’re getting to the interview stage, that at least is a great sign. I’m guessing that for most jobs, the glanced-at-application-and-dismissed pile is bigger than the call-for-a-first-interview pile, so you’re doing something right in that respect. Hang in there! Something will pull through.

        I don’t know, I’m really grasping at straws here, but is there anything about the specific answers you gave that may not have felt genuine to the interviewer? I work in HR and sometimes the answers people give to questions like “tell me about a time you failed at a project and what you did about it” come across as contrived because they start off with something like “that’s a hard question to answer because I’m usually highly successful in my work” – and that ends up putting me on high alert for how they answer other questions. I really don’t know. But if you want to give us ideas as to how you answer some typical questions, maybe we can help?

        1. Fey*

          Don’t know if you’re still reading this, Kwebbel, but I’ll try anyway.

          Firstly, yeah, that comment from saturninus was not at all helpful. Just a misinterpretation of what I wrote + smug but highly incorrect presumptions. *shrug*

          So. I see you’ve been where I am and I really appreciate your empathy! To answer your question, I usually answer those types of questions very honestly, i.e. I use an actual example from past jobs and I’m very careful to use the STAR method in telling my story. I prepare for these types of questions too, so I always know which story to tell and how. And I certainly don’t try to make it seem like I’ve never made mistakes. I can’t imagine that to be a problem though. Could it?

          I have to say though, that I tend to get a lot more responses and invites for first interviews for Office Manager positions than Talent Acquisition positions. I did both at my last job (reflected in my job title and achievements on my CV) so I’m quite perplexed as to why TA jobs reject me at application stage despite this? I have a few more years of experience in OM than TA, sure, but I’ve been doing full-cycle recruitment, and yet I get rejected from Talent Coordinator jobs! There was even a HR person whom I connected with on LinkedIn who expressed surprise that I was interested in the TC position as he said I have experience as a proper recruiter. I told him yeah, I really want to get real training and grow from the ground up as my TA experience has been acquired on the job and the volume has never been high. I’d love to focus on TA and what better way than to start as a TC. He said cool, but it didn’t stop him from proceeding to reject me though (by way of radio silence)!

          Since you’re in HR, I’d love to hear your thoughts!

    2. WellRed*

      Uhh, the 2pm might be ideal for *you* but what he’s trying to say is it doesn’t work for them. Not sure what the role entails, but I’d hate not being able to communicate with HR in real time.

      1. Kwebbel*

        I think she meant she’d start at 2, which is 8 his time, and therefore he would be having conversations with her in real time. That’s how I read it at least. Does that clear it up?

        1. Fey*

          You’re exactly right, Kwebbel. 2pm my time would have been 8am his time. We’d have overlapped by 100% so yes, total real-time communication.

          I’ll answer your above comment a bit later but I just wanted to reply to this one quickly!

  107. Jan Levinson*

    I have been dealing with depression and anxiety for the past several months (for the first time in my life – it’s been extremely difficult). I finally hit a point a couple days ago where I decided counseling was needed. The counselor I found (and want to see based on reviews), is only available Thursdays at 4:30. I work until 4:30, and my office is about 15 minutes from the place, so I would have to leave work 15 minutes early. I know it won’t be a big deal to leave early one day, but I figure if this counseling is beneficial, I may need to leave at 4:15 every Thursday (or every other Thursday, or however often counseling is necessary), for a while. How do I explain this to my boss? I know leaving 15 minutes early isn’t a big deal, but she’s a “butt in your chair” kind of manager, despite me being a high performer (she’s like this with everyone).

    I want to put my mental health first, but I’m just not sure how to get through to my boss. Any suggestions?

    1. Jan Levinson*

      Update: Just found out her latest appointments are now at 4:00, so I would have to leave 45 minutes early. Sigh. Might just have to find a different counselor…

      1. Lady Dedlock*

        That’s great that you’re getting help for depression and anxiety. I struggle with those issues too, and for a while, I had a weekly therapy appointment during the workday. I told my boss what was up and tried to phrase it in a positive way (saying that I’ve been stressed and decided to start seeing someone to learn some coping strategies). He was totally understanding and fine with it. If you don’t want to share that with your boss, though (and you should in no way feel like you have to) you can keep it vague and say you have a standing weekly medical appointment.

    2. cheese please*

      Just be clear about what you need “I need to start meeting with a healthcare provider on a weekly basis for a personal condition. Our insurance covers a practice not too far from the office, and my appointments would be at 4:00PM on Thursdays. Would it be possible to come in early / make up missed time over lunch or come to an agreement to compensate for lost work time? After my intake visit I’ll have a better idea about the duration and scope of treatment.”

      If your manager gets pushy, you can be honest “I’ve had issues with anxiety and other mental health problems that I want to address” or you can be vague “It’s somewhat sensitive, and I hope you know that I am taking the correct steps to manage my health at the direction of my PCP” . Others may know more, but this may be covered under FMLA in which case you have 1 hr / week unpaid but your job is secure. Not an ideal option, but something you may be able to discuss with HR if your manager gets hairy about this.

      PS – If you can, leave 50 min early vs 45. I find it hard to get to therapy appointments stressed out about being late with traffic and tense about finishing up duties at work. Those 5 extra minutes may increase your peace of mind

      1. Reba*

        That’s not an accurate description of intermittent FMLA, unless I’m misreading you. But still may be worth looking into for OP to know if she is eligible. There is an “FMLA Frequently Asked Questions” page on the DOL website as a place to start.

        I also strongly disagree with volunteering information about your condition! Unless you really, really know that your boss would be understanding, and perhaps not even then. The stigma against mental illness is real.

        “I need to leave at about 3:30 on Thursday for a medical appointment. It’s likely that this will become a standing appointment for a while; I’ll keep you posted. Is there anything you would like me to do, like come in a bit early, or work through lunch?”

        Jan Levinson, needing to see a counselor or other professional during the day is normal. If your boss gives you a lot of grief about it, she is the one being unreasonable, not you! Sorry you’re dealing with this.

        1. Reba*

          Oh, also! What about sick leave? Personal days?

          Even though you know your individual boss is focused on presence, is there a company-wide policy about time flexibility or advice on using medical benefits that you could use to prepare yourself for the conversation?

    3. Owlette*

      Go to your boss and say, “My doctor is having me visit him weekly, so I need to leave work at 3:15 every Thursday afternoon.” Don’t request that you should be allowed to leave early. State that you need to leave early. And then be quiet and listen to your boss’s response.

      I have severe depression and anxiety as well, and I had the same worries as you when I first started counseling. But it was all in my head! The anxiety made me too nervous to ask for time off. But when I finally got the nerve to talk to my boss, he just said, “Yep, just work a little later the next day to make up for it.” No issues. I didn’t even have to tell him what the doctor appointments were for.

      If your boss get pushy, she sucks! But make sure you have the courage to push right back and say, “These are medically necessary appointments. I plan on doing X and Y so that all my work gets finished. Do you have any other concerns?” But I honestly think just saying you have a weekly doctor’s appointment will be enough!

      1. Mediamaven*

        I think stating rather than asking isn’t the right tactic. The office hours are set, so if he/she wants flexibility it’s better to be respectful about it – much more likely to have a sympathetic and agreeable ear. As a boss, I’d be far more sympathetic if someone said, I know this is a little inconvenient with our work hours but I need some flexibility on this day regularly for a necessary ongoing medical appointment if we can make it work. I’d really appreciate it!

    4. LGC*

      Just…ask?

      I’m actually serious. State you have a personal appointment that you need to leave a little early for on Thursdays. Offer to work an extra 15 minutes if that’d be beneficial in your job. Don’t feel the need to say that you’re going to your therapist, because that’s none of her business.

      Or you could just go with the slightly less vague “doctor’s appointment.” I mean, a therapist isn’t necessarily a doctor, but it is a medical appointment.

  108. Vent the House Down*

    New-ish employee here. My boss keeps venting/complaining to me about “stupid people in the office.” These are people who either don’t read her emails, ask her a question they “should already know the answer to,” or something about the bureaucratic nature of the office. Except, half the time, she did not include something in an email and accuses someone of missing it, and the questions are genuinely important! If I push back ever so slightly, she says she’s hurt because she thought we could vent to each other because we’re on the same team. I’m not being understanding enough that venting is what gets them through. It becomes a team wide activity :( for the most part I’ve stayed silent, but I feel like this is being complicit. It seems like this is the work culture here in a team that’s been together for many years. Can a new person change anything?

    1. Lilysparrow*

      You can’t change them, no. This kind of thing (blameshifting, expecting others to mindread) isn’t just office culture – it’s deep-rooted in her personality. Don’t get bogged down in trying to fix your boss.

      You can say things like “that sounds frustrating” and avoid joining in with insulting your co-workers.

      After acknowledging the feeling, you can move forward toward a solution (like getting the asker the info they need).

      Managing upward in a situation like this means working around this tendency, not pushing back on it directly.

  109. Anon for this question*

    I would like some advice on phrasing for my next one-on-one with my supervisor. This got to be really long so the tl;dr version is first.

    Short version: new supervisor wants to take on some of my favorite responsibilities, possibly because he wants to do them himself and possibly because Grandboss wants to make me miserable enough to quit. (She has done this to other people.) I can’t take another job right now, though. I love the organization and its mission, I would have to take a pay cut if I go elsewhere in my area, and there are Reasons that I cannot move.

    Long version: I am a weaver at a medium-sized organization. The other weavers and I make hats, gloves, blankets, and sometimes special projects. We plan out our production 3 months at a time, so we know how much wool we’ll need in various colors in advance. Sometimes we miscalculate, especially when special projects are involved, and we have to ask the dyers for more blue or green.

    I’ve always worked closely with the llama herders/groomers and with the dyers to make sure that we have enough llamas to produce the wool we’ll need, and that it’s in the right colors. Part of this involves taking inventory of how much wool we have and in what colors monthly.

    Several years ago, my then-supervisor arranged for me to learn how to dye the wool, so if my department needs a small batch of blue we could get it quickly and without interrupting the dyers’ work processes. They were glad to train me, & I’ve enjoyed doing the work. Plus, I got a raise because it’s a specialized skill, which was also nice.

    While I enjoy weaving, I’ve loved working with the other departments.

    Last year the CEO retired, and the new CEO immediately reorganized the company, replaced most of the management team, and realigned work processes. The realignment moved most of my planning work with the groomers & dyers away and moved it to my new supervisor. They are also in the process of implementing an automated system for the inventory. So most of the things I liked best about my job are going away.

    Now my supervisor wants to learn the dyeing process, using the rationale that I am a silo of knowledge and someone else needs to know how to do it. The problem is twofold: this is a skill where you have to “use it or lose it”, and there isn’t enough dye work in my department for two people to do. The other dyers still work here, so it’s not like I’m the only one in the company who has the knowledge, just the only one in my department. It’s also not a process that meshes well with supervisory responsibilities — you have to pretty much drop everything else while it’s going on (this is why the other dyers do it full-time!) It’s like cooking pasta — you can’t just drop it in boiling water and walk away for an hour without ruining the wool or causing a fire.

    I’m concerned that my supervisor wants to take this on (and take it away from me) because either he or my grandboss wants to push me out by making me so miserable that I quit. My grandboss has already done this to 2 of my colleagues so I don’t think I’m just being paranoid. My previous boss and grandboss saw me as a rockstar and it’s disconcerting to be reduced to a problem employee.

    1. Just Elle*

      Can you suggest that to avoid “silo of knowledge” you help develop standard work for the dyeing process? Or, let supervisor try it for a bit in the hopes he’ll realize its taking too much time out of your day.

      But, as Alison has said before…. if you get to the point where you’re suspecting people around you of atrocities like trying to make you quit (true or not)… you are working in a Toxic Environment and you need to be formulating an exit strategy. Even if you don’t act on it, at least it will keep you from ‘waiting for the shoe to drop’.

      Either way, pushing back on your supervisor trying to take away your role is not going to end well for you. It will just make you look like you’re not a team player – which helps build the case against you. So cheerfully acquiesce to the request. Try to be as agreeable as possible and form a good relationship with supervisor, because you catch more flies with honey. Having a good relationship will give you more negotiating power.

    2. Kwebbel*

      Have you told your manager how much you enjoy this part of your job? Without knowing your unique situation, I suppose there’s a chance he just doesn’t get that and didn’t think it through when he decided to learn wool dyeing. IF you think there’s room left for good faith, maybe it helps to tell him in good faith that you’re happy for him to learn the skills, but would also like to continue being the go-to person for this task. But that’s a big if, and only you know whether good faith is warranted here.

      I must say, though, for what it’s worth I kind of think your manager is wasting resources to train himself up to do this kind of work if he can so easily delegate it to someone on the team with enthusiasm and experience. Isn’t having people working for you who are more expert than you in an area exactly what good management is about? Is there no other skill he could train himself on that would add something the team doesn’t already have? I’m pretty good with VBA and use it all the time in my role. If my manager told me he is learning VBA because he doesn’t want me to be the only one on the team with this knowledge, I’d be a bit weirded out.

    3. Anon for this question*

      Thanks for the thoughtful replies. What it boils down to is that I’m weirded out by the duplication of skills when it isn’t strictly needed.

      For the record, this is a skill that requires a certificate to perform, and there is separate instructor certification. I don’t have the instructor cert so I can’t provide the training itself to anyone else. I have informally walked Boss through what I do, though.

  110. De Minimis*

    In other crappy workplace news, I found out today that my first 30 days here didn’t count toward earning leave, contrary to what the employee handbook said. When I asked about it, they said that the handbook wasn’t accurate anymore and needed to be updated. I wouldn’t be surprised if they never updated it.

    They still made me read it on my first day and sign an acknowledgement, even though apparently a good number of the things in it no longer apply.

    1. Jan Levinson*

      I would push back on that! Say, “I signed off on the employee handbook, which explicitly stated that employees would earn leave beginning at their start date. Given that, would you be willing to honor that?”

      1. De Minimis*

        Already tried [and my manager even backed me up on it…but apparently to no avail]

        Of course, my appeal was with the payroll accountant [who doesn’t determine policy–she had to check with the company that administers our payroll] so I may check with HR. I’d at least like to see what the current policy is since it doesn’t currently appear to be written down anywhere.

      2. cheese please*

        +1

        Ask them to provide any other updates not in the handbook over email, so you have record of them. Express that you were caught off guard by this and would like to abide by company policy in the future, which is only possible if you are up to date.

      3. LJay*

        Most times when I’ve had to sign a page acknowledging receipt of the handbook, that paper has had verbiage specifying that what was written in the handbook was not a binding contract and that it was subject to change at any point.

    2. Marie*

      Do you have a copy of the handbook? It might be worth consulting with a lawyer. That seems illegal but I’m not a lawyer so maybe it is legit.

      1. De Minimis*

        I think they have the right to change stuff if they need to, as long as it’s not something that is in violation of the law. Or at least that’s my layperson’s understanding of it, as someone who once worked in HR. I think I’ll at least check with them though to see what the current policy is. My leave accrual is pretty low as a new employee, so we’re really just talking about maybe a day of vacation that I would have otherwise gotten according to the handbook. Not a hill to die on for me.

        We have a copy of the handbook on the company intranet, but it’s the one that I’ve been told “isn’t correct anymore.”

      2. Not Me*

        I suspect there’s something in the handbook that says “These policies are subject to change at any time without notice” that they could rely on.

      3. De Minimis*

        It turns out the policies are publicly available elsewhere in our system, but new hires are still required to read/sign off on the old handbook.

        I think they are working on a lot of these procedures and it hasn’t quite come together yet.

  111. Ex-Teacher's Wife*

    My husband left his teaching job in the middle of a school year (with plenty of notice) and the school district appealed to the state to have his teaching certificate suspended. He was severely depressed and needed a change that couldn’t wait. He has since gotten better and is looking at jobs in the education field that aren’t teaching. He plans to reinstate his certificate and get a master’s in learning technology. What is the best way to explain this suspension to a future school district? I thought just honestly tell them that he needed to leave for his mental health, but has gotten better in the last three years. But then I wonder if the employer really needs to know all of that personal, medical information.

    1. Rusty Shackelford*

      Could he say he had to leave for a medical issue that has since been resolved, without getting into any details?

      1. fposte*

        Yes, I think explicitly mentioning mental health is more risk than is worthwhile at this juncture.

        1. Ex-Teacher's Wife*

          That was my thought. It might make the company wary of dealing with mental health issues. I like just medical issue.

    2. Anonymous Educator*

      I know this isn’t really the answer you’re looking for, but something he may want to consider is teaching at an independent (private) school for a while. Private schools do not require teachers to have credentials.

      1. Ex-Teacher's Wife*

        He’s tired of teaching and dealing with parents and admin not being supportive enough. But he misses helping students learn.

        1. Anonymous Educator*

          Been there. Totally understand. But in some ways, that’s great, because then he doesn’t have to reinstate his certificate.

    3. LaDeeDa*

      Also not the answer you are looking for — but have him look for corporate training jobs, lots of companies hire former teachers to be trainers.

      1. Ex-Teacher's Wife*

        I keep telling him that!! lol he says he’s not trained for anything but being a teacher, so I told him to look into corporate training. Now to just find a few places around DFW he can look into.

        1. LaDeeDa*

          DFW is a HUGE market for corporate trainers. That is where I am :) He can also look into train the train courses, it helps make the transition from kids to adults, because it is a bit of a different skill.

  112. atgo*

    This week’s news from my dysfunctional office: the guy running our HRIS is the husband of the VP of HR. He doesn’t report to her, but he reports to her report.

    No wonder we don’t have any data about our staff…

    1. valentine*

      Dear Alison:

      My manager’s husband reports to me. How do I tell him he stinks (both physically and professionally) without incurring the wrath of his spouse, our VP?

      (In case it matters, we are HR.)

  113. Anon anony*

    Giving my notice today… current job is toxic, abusive, and dysfunctional. Last job was nearly the same. Fingers crossed that new job is much better. Asking for positive thoughts/vibes!!

    2. The Man, Becky Lynch*

      Sending positivity that way! You are going to be much better in this new role, it’s a new world out there, every job is different. Be mindful not to take the toxicity with you when you arrive because it’ll try to creep in there after so much of it!

  114. Lady Dedlock*

    Help me settle a disagreement with my boss: Can ability to work remotely be considered a form of compensation?

    Remote work is not the norm at my organization, but we do have a handful of full-time remote people who started as on-site employees. We allowed my direct report to transition to remote work when her husband got a job in another city. Her performance has remained stellar, and I want to start making the case for a salary increase for her during our next review cycle. However, my boss said (to paraphrase) that she has a pretty sweet deal here since we let her go remote, so he doesn’t think it’s time to think about a raise yet.

    My take is that we didn’t let her go remote as a favor—we did it because we decided that it was a mutually agreeable business arrangement. Her work is no less good or valuable because she’s not on site, so that shouldn’t factor into raises. Am I off-base here?

    1. Anonymous Educator*

      Sounds as if your boss is just trying to be stingy. Remote work can be a perk, but it isn’t in lieu of compensation unless those were the agreed-to terms. In other words, if she had said “Hey, looks as if I’m due for a raise,” and you or your boss had said “What if we let you work remotely instead?” and she said “Sure. I’ll take that instead,” then your boss would absolutely be right. But just because she just happened to have something mutually beneficial (but beneficial to her in some way) happen, that shouldn’t disqualify her from getting a raise.

      1. valentine*

        Can ability to work remotely be considered a form of compensation?
        No. You have to pay with money, not fuzzy slippers.

        I really hate when employers exaggerate working from home. They seem to think it feels like the last number of a musical.

    2. Not Me*

      I don’t think it can be considered compensation, but it can be considered a benefit.

      I agree with you though, she should be evaluated and given increases just like she would if she worked on site. Denying her that equal treatment is a very good way to lose her.

    3. MissDisplaced*

      Your boss has on old-fashioned ‘butts in the seat’ mentality.
      Your remote workers should be evaluated on their work, and the quality/quantity of the their work as compared to those in the office.
      WFH is not compensation. Actually, that cost of having a home office often gets put on the employee! They must provide their own high-speed Internet, printers, phones, electricity and the like out of their own pocket. As WFH being a “benefit,” yes it is, but not really any more so than say the things that may happen in the office, such as free coffee, lunches, after work happy hours, early dismissals, etc. I don’t know if your company regularly does this stuff, but I think it’s good to point that out to your boss.

    4. Anonymously anon*

      I see remote work as a perk/benefit, not compensation. I think it’s kind of cheap to use that as a reason not to give a raise, especially for a high performer. It’s almost like punishing the remote worker for doing a good job!

    5. My cat is my alarm clock*

      To me compensation means I can use it to pay my rent. So no you are not off base!

    6. Overeducated*

      Maybe in the short term it could count, since getting to keep your job when moving is a pretty big deal that isn’t very common – but if you tell someone “no raises since you get to work remotely,” they may hear “this is a sweet deal and a career dead end” and be more motivated to look for something in their new location, so I think that’s something your boss needs to consider.

      1. AvonLady Barksdale*

        Yup. I feel very fortunate and even grateful that my company is keeping me on when we move, but as much as it’s on me to make sure I do my best to make this work, it doesn’t mean I lose my market value. I’m also moving to a place with a much higher COL than my current location, so if I were told no raise because I “get” to work remotely, then that would be my cue to start job-hunting.

    7. Kwebbel*

      I work in HR and I’ve seen this argument used before to justify not giving someone an increase. It’s a patently bad idea if they deserve one, though, if for no other reason than, when a person’s working remotely, it can be easier for them to duck out for interviews over their lunch break as no one sees them show up to work in a suit, so they can plan their lives around interviews a lot more easily than they could at the office. We’ve lost good people with this mindset. I’d push back if there’s any way to do so.

    8. Gumby*

      His reasoning is suspect in this particular case.

      But I have seen people take pay cuts to work remotely. As in moved from the Bay Area to not-California and their employer agreed to remote work but at a reduced rate. Which was still way worth it because their mortgage for a 4 bedroom house at their new location would be lower than the rent on the 1 bedroom apartment that was here. (Like half as much.) I do not think that requiring this pay cut was entirely wrong even if the work is the same because our housing market is out of whack.

      1. WellRed*

        But isn’t that a cost of living adjustment, not a pay cut for the privilege of working remote? It’s not the same thing.

  115. Environmental Compliance*

    So, one of the field operators has been reassigned to my department, and will be reporting to me. Previously (under another management company), this position has reported to the EHS department (they are part of our wastewater compliance). Not sure why it was moved some years ago, but now we’re moving it back.

    This individual has a…..history…. of refusing to do work that is quite reasonably within their position duties; does not take ownership of the area they are responsible for; is horrible at any sort of documentation; suspect they falsify reports; is quick to call HR when refusing to do part of their duties claiming racism/favoritism/other -isms, etc.

    My plan is to review the position description & revise as necessary as I’m sure it’s been a couple years, put together an expectation document for both of us to go over (and sign) so that we’re both on the same page, and put everything in writing on both sides – my expectations & directions, their required reporting & equipment requests. I want this person to do better – I do not want them to continue to have this reputation (which I have seen first hand). However, I also want to make it very clear that the continued inability to submit required reports, work with others in an appropriate manner, and do required duties (this includes general housekeeping of the area, for instance, it’s not anything dangerous or hazardous – it’s literally sweeping or hosing something down) will result in at a minimum of a PIP. I think part of the issue is a previous lack of ‘enforced’ expectations and an unwillingness to actually manage the individual. I’m hoping that this person does better with clear expectations and clearer management. But I’m trying to be cautious as well towards protecting myself, if that makes sense. We do have a new HR management company, who is (in other ways) many levels better than the previous HR company who allowed this employee to get out of job duties by choosing an -ism of the day (again, we’re not asking this person to sweep his area because of ageism or something, Joe Blow over there is *also* sweeping, because that’s how this works, you have an area, you are often tasked with keeping it clean). I’m hoping that they can help me get in front of this, because I do expect this to come up again. I’m not sure if it’s appropriate to preemptively call our HR contact and let them know of previous history, or what.

    At the end of the day, I want this person to have a good working environment, and be able to do their job well. But I also do not want to get on the merry-go-round that’s previously occurred, and really at the end of the day – we need to be In Compliance, not patiently waiting for Person to remember where they put away the sampling that was requested multiple times for a compliance event. I don’t want this to end up in a firing, but I also realistically see it as somewhat likely end scenario.

    TL; DR: Employee with a history of insubordination & suspected falsification is being transferred to me, not sure whether to contact our new(ish) HR company with a summary of the history, planning on having the employee have an expectations & position duties meeting with myself to sign off on what expectations are going forward & what SOPs there will be for things like report submission & equipment requests, not sure if there’s anything other than documentation out the ears that I need to do to promote the employee’s (hopeful) success and/or clear working boundaries.

    1. LCL*

      I’m not sure why you wouldn’t contact HR on this. If you need HR’s signoff to terminate or discipline this person, you should contact them before the employee joins you.

      1. Environmental Compliance*

        I do need their signoff, it just feels a little strange to call them to say “hey, Person’s got a history of being a PITA, just so you know because I’m betting I’m going to have the same problems”.

          1. Environmental Compliance*

            100% yes – I have the call already set up for management advice. Just not sure how exactly to say to our rep that this person’s got a history of BS.

    2. Kathenus*

      I think it’s great that you’re going to manage this person so thoughtfully from the beginning of them being moved back to your area. And all that you mention about clarity of expectations and such sounds great. From having dealt with a somewhat similar employee at a past job, one thing to consider in addition to what you’ve mentioned. We were a strong union environment at that job so the employee was a union member. HR and I had to make sure that we weren’t holding her to a different/higher standard than other employees. She could be held to her clearly defined expectations, but not if other people didn’t have to follow the same types of expectations in their jobs. So I was told I could definitely manage her closely, but had to be equitable in the types of expectations she had for others in her similar positions. Best of luck.

      1. Environmental Compliance*

        We are not unionized at this facility. I actually cannibalized a similar position’s description and made some of the changes to the unique duties to this position, so hopefully I’ve kept it consistent enough between all the different types of operators, but I am waiting for HR approval.

        I’m also brand new to true people managing (I’ve done a lot of team lead & mentorship roles, but no one reported to me in the true I-do-performance-reviews sense), so I’ve got a bit of anxiety centered on this. I don’t want to screw up and make life difficult for everyone involved, but I’m absolutely not willing to go through the circus that imho was previously there simply because no expectations were conveyed or enforced.

  116. Tea*

    Not sure if I’m reading too much into this, but… we’re currently going through a round of layoffs at work. I’m the most senior person in my department and I’ve always showed great results and do well when it comes to raises and performance evaluations. But the thing is, when my manager talked to me this week, she didn’t say that my job was safe for any of those reasons, she specially said “your job is safe, because you’re on parental leave, and we can’t lay off anyone on parental leave”.
    To me, that tells me that my name came up in the discussions about layoffs, but that they decided to keep me because it wouldn’t be worth the hassle to get rid of me. I should find a new job, right? One where being the best at my job should be enough to make my manager want to keep me if there’s layoffs?

    1. CM*

      You’re reading too much into this! Unless you’re already thinking of leaving, don’t leave over this.

      1. valentine*

        Without more, I would assume it’s “While there are five reasons, including performance, for those among us with less common sense and colander memories, we’re only going to mention the most obvious, so we don’t have to keep having the same conversation.”

        See where the dust settles before you make any moves.

    2. LaDeeDa*

      Yikes, what was she thinking? I would hope that it just sort of came out and she meant “we didn’t even have your name on the list to discuss since you are parental leave” but you never know. It can’t hurt to job hunt!

    3. Not Me*

      I think I’d go back to my boss and ask what that meant. I’d say something like “I’m a little confused about our conversation and was hoping we could clear it up. When you said I’m not being laid off during this round of layoffs because I’m on parental leave, does that mean if I wasn’t on leave I’d have been laid off?”

    4. Goose Lavel*

      No one’s job is safe, no matter what great skills you have or how important you are to the project you’re working on.

      I’ve seen this play out at previous companies and assurances from the supervisor are never a guarantee that you wouldn’t get laid off.
      I recommend job searching ASAP has it usually take months to find a new job.

  117. anon for this*

    Have decided to start job hunting when my life quiets down in a month or so, and I’m grieving a little because a year ago I would have said this was going to be my dream job. Part of me, looking at some of the stories on here, still feels like I’m mad to be considering this. I have a fantastic commute (one I’m extremely unlikely to have in any new job – I live in Smaller City B which is in the general area of Big City A, current job is in B but there’s almost nothing else in my field here), am paid good money (possibly a bit under market value, but I could probably negotiate a raise at this point), I get along well with my coworkers, my boss is fantastic, we have nice perks, I’m working in my preferred subfield, I really like our mission…

    …but my company just can. Not. Seem to get its shit together. I’ve been here for almost two years and things seem to be getting steadily more chaotic and nothing we try to do seems to pan out. I’m so tired of bouncing from one project to the other, having the rug pulled out from under me with “oops, this turned out not to be the way forward, let’s throw away everything you did for the past month”, always hearing promises that things will clear up and we’ll have a clear vision and path forward but it never quite materialising. To add insult to injury, I’m actually now skeptical that the Big Thing that is our amorphous goal is even possible.

    OK, moaning aside –

    How do you actually find good recruiters, anyway? I’ve only ever applied to jobs directly, but the norm in my field appears to be very strongly in favour of recruiters right now. Do I just randomly reach out to some on LinkedIn, or what?

    1. MissDisplaced*

      Ugh! I feel you. I’ve also left companies when “it” just begins not to feel right.
      I always feel like there might be something wrong with me in that I need to feel very engaged in my work. I’ll put up with a lot… but suddenly when it’s one thing too many… I’m out. Like OUT. But you know, I’ve found that if I can’t personally enact changes, I don’t want to deal with it or live with it. It’s especially hard when you do like the work itself, but can’t abide management, the rules of the office, the commute, your manager, or whatever.

      I also know the grass isn’t always greener on the other side of the fence, but I’m still often willing to make the leap. I guess I’ve never been one to ‘go along to get along’ or ‘shut up and take it’ for the sake of a job.

      1. anon for this*

        Yes! I need to feel engaged in my work. I’m not a person who can just come in, do whatever I’m told to do, and not care if it ends up spiralling into disaster the next day.

        Which is why this job felt like such a good fit, because it’s a nonprofit and I really believe in the mission? But I think that’s what’s made it so bad. Like, I sometimes feel legit guilty for drawing a salary because I feel like I’m not achieving anything and this money could be spent so much better. And I get even more stressed out if things aren’t going well than before.

  118. My cat is my alarm clock*

    I applied for a vacancy in my team two grades higher, interviewed and didn’t get it.

    I didn’t apply for a vacancy one grade higher and am now kicking myself. My manager was surprised I didn’t apply. I had a better chance at this one. I don’t know what I was thinking. It is definitely too late to be considered (I checked). I work in a niche role that doesn’t exist anywhere else and should’ve taken whatever opportunity I had a shot at.

    I have to get over it and move on. I can’t stop kicking myself. Argh.

    1. CM*

      If it makes you feel better, I had a friend in a very similar situation — didn’t apply for internal transfer for job that would have been perfect for her, her manager after the fact said he was surprised and she would have been hired. (Hello, managers! Speak up before it’s too late!) She also couldn’t stop kicking herself! A year later, she’s in a completely different job that wasn’t even on her radar and is a vast improvement in every way — salary, time commitment, work environment. She wouldn’t have been able to interview if she had just started a new position. So, not to be all “everything happens for a reason,” but other opportunities will come your way, and you can be more open to them now.

      1. My cat is my alarm clock*

        Thank you so much for the reply – I am sorry your friend had that experience but it’s nice to feel less alone.

        That was my thinking actually – I wasn’t sure this was the right move and you can only make so many. I’m hoping something else comes up for me too!

  119. I Work on a Hellmouth*

    Hi there from the Hellmouth! So, I was thinking that (now that Hell Boss is gone) the only things I would really have to write about this week would be the craziness of covering four positions/basically having over 20 hours of work per day and trying to squeeze it into 8 hours, some resident craziness, and maybe some fun animal stories. Instead, so many high drama things happened that I’m hesitant to even list them because it legit sounds made up/not believable. But hey, why start holding out on you now, right? So, here are the things that have happened this week:

    1) A SHOOTING. Someone on my property got shot in the middle of the night. I came in to work to find the horrible maintenance supervisor LAUGHING ABOUT IT. The residents are all very upset. I am very upset. I am more dedicated than ever to finding a way to GTFO.

    2) Our make ready guy has not actually been making apartments ready, and three apartments that were supposed to be moved into were garbage on the day of move in so I made a big deal about this to our visiting corporate overlords, and the make ready guy and the maintenance supervisor seemed really POed about this. I made this observation out loud in the office. And then I went on my lunch break and received a threatening, screaming phone call on my personal cell phone from the maintenance supervisor about “talking about him behind his back” and how he was calling me to “leave [visiting corporate overlords] out of it.” HELL NO. I told him the call was inappropriate and never to call my number again, called said corporate overlords, and said I was not okay with what had just happened and would not return to work until I had spoken with them in depth about the incident.

    3) This lead to a meeting with both the regional VP and the garbage maintenance supervisor the next day. Wherein he started yelling and accusing me of being a long term problem who does nothing but “sit on my butt and gossip about people behind their back” which… I mean, no, I do not, and also WHO AM I SUPPOSEDLY GOSSIPING WITH I AM ALL ALONE THERE IS LITERALLY NO ONE I COULD TALK TO ANYWAY. I wish I had remained calm when he got all red faced and started saying crazy stuff, but I did wind up also raising my voice because I was surprised and also because I AM OVER IT. I told him (in front of the VP) that I need a professional environment where he DOES NOT yell, seem threatening, CALL ME TO YELL AT ME ON MY PHONE, tell disgusting explicit stories in front of me, and the like. And while the VP did admonish me and tell me that I will have to remain calm and be able to communicate professionally with Jackass McGee, she also asked some further questions about the explicit stories and I think my days of having to hear that guy tell me about working for women who don’t wear underwear and “smile at him without using their mouths” is finally at an end, but who cares because no matter what I will shortly GTFO.

    4) Oh, that same maintenance supervisor seems to be in constant contact with Hell Boss and McGruff the Also Recently Fired, and they seem to be plotting ways to make like unpleasant for me. Super mature! Super fun! But I giveth none of the cares because come hell or high water I will shortly GTFO.

    5) Oh, and I have been getting non-stop calls on my work line from some weird number that Google indicates is used by some fraudulent phishing scam. They keep asking for me by name, and the timing seems kind of weird so, maybe it’s just me being paranoid, but I kind of suspect Hell Boss having something to do with it? But it won’t be a problem for me any more once I GTFO, which I am intending to do with great haste.

    Apparently the regional VP thought I would be working 6 days a week until more people are hired, but NOPE. So today is my off day (since I am the only person who can cover Saturdays because I AM THE ONLY ACTUAL EMPLOYEE). Poor Awesome Temp has been left all alone on the Hellmouth today. I feel terrible about that, but am still staying home and applying to ANY JOB AT ALL, ALL OF THE JOBS, I AM LEAVING THIS PLACE, LEAVING, LEAVING, LEAVING. There is no longer a question about notice, either. Nope. Nope. Nope. I am oooooooooooooout. I’m getting closer to having enough money socked away to just bail if I don’t get a break on the job hunt soon, and I also have a really promising particular job lead, and the second one of those becomes a concrete option I am GONE. So many caps, but so heartfelt, guys.

    1. Karen from Finance's Work is Full of Bees*

      Oh honey I’m so sorry. The shooting, it just sounds horrible. Hope you get out soon.

      I’m guessing no good news from the answer you were expecting last week?

      1. I Work on a Hellmouth*

        Unfortunately, no. But that’s okay–today is Application Day. I will force a new job to happen. I will will it into existence.

    2. MuseumChick*

      I am formally requesting that you write into Alison with an update! I want to know all about why/how Hell Boss is gone. This is the wildest ride I have ever seen.

    3. CatCat*

      YOU ARE LEAVING THIS PLACE. Just a question of when. All the fingers continue to be crossed!

    5. Happy Lurker*

      Thanks for the update! I continue to keep you in my thoughts and send good job vibes your way.

    6. Troutwaxer*

      I am so sorry that even with the bad boss gone things still have not improved. I hope you find your way out of there ASAP.

    7. Turtlewings*

      I’m so glad to hear that you’re close to having enough savings to leave. And good for you for standing up for yourself and getting Mr. Garbage in trouble; even if you ended up flipping your lid a little, it sounds like it had earned a good flipping.

      Any chance we could get those funny animal stories? I love those.

      1. I Work on a Hellmouth*

        Well, I don’t have any particularly noteworthy animal encounters for the week, but the aggressive twerker came back! This week she was trying to surf on the pool safety equipment.

        1. Seeking Second Childhood*

          You really have a way with words… “Aggressive Twerker” indeed!

    8. Bee's Knees*

      You’re gossiping to the squirrels and bees, duh.

      And I hope you get out of there soon. Also, since you’re the only person there, there’s literally nothing keeping you from saying you’re someone else when the phishing people call. I’ve done that before when salespeople call. Fake name and all.

      1. I Work on a Hellmouth*

        I’ve been strongly considering using my old roller derby name. Or the roller derby name that I almost went with (Ginger Bite-us).

    9. Anonfortoday*

      Wow. Just wow. I’m so sorry that things continue to be terrible and I cannot blame you even one little bit for GTFO ASAP.

    10. Drew*

      You have all the vibes on the job search. Every one. I am keeping none at all for myself because right now I’m doing OK and you need to Gee Tee Eff Oh Pee Dee Queue.

      I would also suggest, strongly but humbly, that as soon as you have GTFOed you change your phone number and don’t give the new number to anyone at Hellmouth Acres. That will be inconvenient for a month or so while you notify all your real contacts, but it will do so much for your peace of mind.

      1. cookies*

        oohh, I second this. If ever there were a good excuse for changing your phone number and name and address and backstory, leaving this job is it.

        And I submit that if you DO change your name, “The Mother***ker” becomes your new middle name.

        1. Seeking Second Childhood*

          (Please don’t use the mf… some of us read this blog to kids & teens and I’d hate to stop that.)

        2. MommaCat*

          I’m a personal fan of “I Work(ed) on a Hellmouth,” at least for a few weeks after you GTFO. Best wishes!

      2. Deranged Cubicle Owl*

        This exactly!
        Get a new number once you landed a new job. It sucks for a bit, but then ex-hell boss and ex-co-worker cannot annoy you any longer.

      3. NoLongerYoung*

        On the phone/ new number.

        check out porting your current cell number to google voice (total cost to me was $20). I was able to keep the old number, the calls went into google’s voice system, I got the transcript in email, could dredge out the relevant ones, and delete the rest.

        It’s actually got other uses (you could forward, for example), but was perfect for me keeping the phone number (and contacts could reach it if I couldn’t reach them before I got my new number). I didn’t want 2 numbers on my Verizon account, and it did let me have time to catch all of the contacts – and some I didn’t know had the number – over time.

        1. I Work on a Hellmouth*

          This is a great idea–I’m hesitant to get rid of my number (dumb sentimental reasons), and this sounds like a good solution.

    11. Nita*

      Oh no, what a week. So glad you’re getting closer to leaving. Hang in there in the meantime. Sending you all the good vibes for a better new job soon. I hope old boss switches her attention to something else and stays far, far away from you.

    12. Nerdy Library Clerk*

      RUN.
      I hope the promising job lead pans out and you can depart the Hellmouth ASAP. Some jobs you quit, other jobs you run screaming from. It is so very in the latter category. If there were a dictionary entry, it would provide the picture.

    13. It’s All Good*

      Dang! Girl I hope you career dreams come true SOON! You have built up great job karma for the rest of your life.

    14. Laura H.*

      Hey Hellmouth,

      I’m still doing a happy dance to “Ding Dong the witch is fired”, but ugh-so sorry. Still rooting for ya to get outta there!

      You wrote into Alison initially right? Is there an update in the works for those who don’t follow your misadventures week to week on the open threads?

      But you’re likely saving it till you’re out! Which is understandable!

      Good luck!

    15. Seeking Second Childhood*

      Hi Hellmouth!
      I had some “hurry up and wait” time this week. And I gathered all the links to all your past comments in one place so I could send them on to a friend who has listened to my second-hand retelling of some of your stories. If you’d like me to post them in a comment let me know, but because I never did get the RSS comment-subscription to work, maybe just let me know on Friday. :)
      Sheepishly compulsive indexer, that’s me.

  120. Mall Rat Anon*

    Thought I’d share some weirdness from my super toxic boss with y’all! She’s currently helping a family friend move out of his home and into assisted living, which is great! Except she’s done zero work this week, she just sits at her desk making phone calls to estate sale people. She also is pretty much expecting sainthood for doing this. She literally said on Monday, “Where’s my parade for coming into work today? Where’s the marching band? Where’s the elephant that’s going to parade me around *place we work* with men fanning me with palm fronds?” She says it pretending like she’s joking, but she’s just doing this good deed so she’ll have something to talk about with her friends.

    1. valentine*

      she’s just doing this good deed so she’ll have something to talk about with her friends.
      Unless this hurts the person she’s doing it for, her doing it goes in the plus column.

  121. Sarah-tonin*

    hi! this is my first time trying this aam thing. :) sorry in advance, this is a little long.

    I recently accepted a 12 hour week assistant librarian position that starts next week. I don’t drive (partially due to my vision, since I can’t ever drive at night) and the commute would be, at best, almost two hours. that “better” route would mean I’d have to transfer four different buses, in not-especially-safe areas, or cross busy streets. the other route I’d take is longer, but much less stressful, and safer. ubering would be about $15 one-way, and I’m trying to avoid using that unless I work at night or on the weekends. (for those in the Chicagoland area, I’m going from a suburb into the city and then back out into another suburb, taking the train then L then bus.)

    none of this would be a huge problem, but the position is only four hours at a time, three days a week. I did ask in the interview if the days could be combined (without mentioning the public transit option as a license isn’t required for this position), and my now boss said no, because she wants people to get acclimated to the library and all that we do and if there is something specific I’m working on, it might not be best for that to wait until the next time I’m in (like if somebody emails me a question about something I work on on a Wednesday, they’ll have to wait until Monday for a response).

    I understood all this (although I’m not sure I agree, as the other library I work at has long breaks in between the weekday shifts because a majority of us are part-time and we manage just fine) and obviously accepted the job knowing this. but that was before I knew how unsafe the “better” commute would be (I don’t mind the four buses as much, but the area and streets are a problem). would it be something I could ask about again (in at least a few weeks) or should I just accept that this is the reality of the position and look for something full-time?

    also in case there are questions – I could technically drive during the day, but I hate driving and I suck at it. I legally couldn’t drive at night because of my eyesight, and in the winter when it gets dark at like 5, I’d need to find another way home anyway. plus cars and gas are expensive and I’d much rather be able to afford moving out before driving. moving closer to the job isn’t really an option as I have another part-time job that I need to balance too.

    1. MuseumChick*

      Given that it’s Chicago (which has awful traffic), and the L (I have lots of friends who live in Chicagoland and hear horror stories all the time) I would take the longer, safer route. Another options would be signing up for one of those car sharing services like Zipcar. Then if you wanted to you could drive to the job but then take public transport out (this would of course be dependent on the locations for the car sharing lots).

    2. Bike commuter*

      You mention a vision problem, so I’m not sure if this would be doable, but maybe an e-bike? It’s like biking but much faster and less strenuous. You have a motor on the bike that kicks in when you pedal and speeds you up. You go a lot faster than a normal bike so long distances become feasible, and it’s not strenous enough to sweat too much so you can wear normal professional clothes and jump off the bike looking decently professional. You can also just use it to take you to a more convenient transfer point–maybe take it halfway and then jump on a bus.

      If you already have a bike, you can add a motor to it for about $1k. If you don’t have a bike at all, a new e-bike starts at about $2k, which is a lot of money. For me, public transit would be about $1k / year if I took it all the time, and through biking I’ve been able to lower my transit costs to about $150 / year (basically relying on it when the weather is particularly horrible, but I probably live in a more pleasant climate than Chicago). So even though it required some investment up front, I’ve been able to save a lot of money by mainly bike commuting for the past 4 years.

      Bigger picture–if you don’t figure out a better commute, I think you’ll quickly burn out of this job. Two hours and four bus transfers is way too much for a four-hour shift.

      1. Sarah-tonin*

        Yeah, I know it’s a lot, which is why my main question was about whether or not I could ask to combine shifts, even though I asked already (before I realized the commute issues) and she said no.

        Not that I don’t appreciate the other advice, because I do for sure, but that wasn’t really my question.

    3. That Girl From Quinn's House*

      Is Lyft Line or Uber Pool an option for you? I know a lot of people in cities with iffy mass transit who just use that for their daily commute, and it’s like taking a shuttle bus.

      1. Sarah-tonin*

        It is! I don’t want to take it for both shifts, as one trip costs as much as I make in an hour. But I could see myself using that for one of my trips eventually as I’m not gonna want to commute four+ hours three days a week.

        1. ..Kat..*

          I just got a promo from Lyft where I pay $9.99 and get $5 off every Lyft ride for 28 days. Not sure if this will help you. Just wanted to mention it. Good luck.

          1. ..Kat..*

            Also, can you swap shifts with coworkers to optimize your work/commute time?

            Or, just tell yourself that this job is going to give you valuable work experience that will help you in the long run?

    4. WellRed*

      They already said no. Asking again after such a short period of time looks out of touch. They need coverage when they need it. Did you not know the schedule when you accepted the position? Down the road, you could revisit the issue, after theu have gotten to know you’re an awesome worker. PS. I recently realized I can no longer drive at night, so I feel ya on that. It’s limiting and hard for others to understand.

      1. Sarah-tonin*

        I love your username. :)

        Thank you, I won’t be asking again.

        I kind of knew the schedule – I knew that I’d be working a certain number of days, but the hours vary. Sometimes I’ll work 1-5, others 9-1, and the hours vary even after that, it depends. Taking public transit at 7am is way different than, say 12, and the schedule isn’t regular at all.

        Maybe taking this job wasn’t the smartest decision I’ve made, but a) I’m only planning on being there for a few months and b) I got it to help me get experience for full-time jobs. This wouldn’t have been my first choice at all, but I couldn’t get anything closer.

    5. ThatGirl*

      I understand why you took it but I live in DuPage Co and that commute sounds extremely annoying. My last job was in Deerfield and technically I could’ve gotten there via a bus, two trains and another bus but it would’ve taken three hours. You have my sympathies.

      1. Sarah-tonin*

        ugh, your potential commute sounds worse than mine – I mean, mine would be a train to the el to the bus, which is probably the same length as yours, but a transfer less. (and I took this route home when I when to fill out paperwork the other day – took forever, but much smoother than the four buses.)

        yeah, I think this is gonna make me want to find a full-time job sooner than I anticipated! (my current part-time job is amazing and I’d stay there for much longer if I could.)

        I want to use this job when looking for a full-time job, though. like put it on a resume and give my new boss as a reference. how soon is too soon to do that? I don’t want it to look bad if I’m asking a month in, but I also don’t want to have to do this commute for months and months….

        1. ThatGirl*

          I think you need to be there a few months at least before asking for a reference, but definitely keep looking. Good luck :)

    6. AngelicGamer, the visually impaired peep*

      Hi fellow Chicagoian! Have you looked into Metra at all? Is there a way to get close to where your job is and then Uber or bus from there? Also, since we’re going into summer, it might be a thought to transfer into OTC and then go out of Union or Metra and then an L. Good luck!

      1. Sarah-tonin*

        Hiiiiii! :) yeah, actually, my preferred route (the one that’s longer but less transfers and much smoother so far) is taking a metra to union, taking the orange line to midway, and then taking a bus to the town I work in. (I think I could also take a certain metra line into the city and then take a different one out, then take a bus if it’s not within walking distance.) but then I’ll probably just uber home, because otherwise I’ll be gone for literally 8-9 hours and no thank you. I have a cat I’d like to spend time with.

        And then I’ll be looking for a full-time job in a few months haha. Then I can move out of my mom’s, finally, and start doing this adulting thing. I might not use my boss as a reference, bc I don’t know how long I’ll be there before I start looking, but I can def put it on my resume.

        1. valentine*

          It doesn’t sound doable because aren’t they going to ask you to cover other, random shifts, possibly at different locations? Possibly the best case is that, if you’re willing to take a driving course, you could ask for the accommodation of leaving no less than x hours before sunset on the 1-5 days.

          But it just sounds like a complete and total nightmare. Surely there is another part-time, temporary job with much better logistics.

  122. Regina Phalange*

    Here’s one for you that happening RIGHT NOW.

    There is evidently a secret WhatsApp group thread with former and current employees. Of the three current employees, one is a manager (but of a different department), and the other two are relatively junior. The former employees have all been fired, or quit before they were fired, and they all worked in the same department.

    The purpose of the group is to complain about the company and people within the company. The current employee manager in the group regularly complains about another current manager (who is not in the group), and a a former employee called the same current manager the N word (!!!!!!).

    One of the junior current employees in this group was very uncomfortable with all of this, and it was raised up to management.

    What the hell can we do here? Everyone is in the UK. They were on their private phones. The conversations may or may not have occurred during work hours, but even if it had, we don’t have strict rules about personal phone use.

    Hellllllp!

    1. MissDisplaced*

      Well, I guess if they are FORMER employees there really isn’t anything you can do to them.
      As for current employees, I suppose your IT department could block WhatsAPP so they can’t use it or access it at work, as well as going over your social media policy and enforcing strict use of social media use at work for work purposes.

      But as to what they do off-work hours, I suspect it’s not the company’s business, unless it is public.

      1. Regina Phalange*

        Totally about the former. The concern is a current manager engaging in detrimental talk about a fellow manager to junior staff members. I know it’s not _illegal_, but it’s certainly Not Great.

        1. Psyche*

          Are there company policies about detrimental talk about other employees? Because it seems like that would be the angle to go at it from. It shouldn’t matter whether they did it on an app, by text, by email or out loud. It simply is not ok.

            1. VLookupsAreMyLife*

              Is race not a protected class? I’m thinking that using the N-word would qualify, right?

              1. Natalie*

                That was a former employee, though, they have no disciplinary power over someone who doesn’t work for them.

    2. Rey*

      Ugh, this is a hot mess. I think there needs to be a conversation that focuses on what’s not okay (does your company have an official policy that says something about diversity, offensive language, etc.?) and that lays out the process for filing official complaints (i.e., employee requests a one-on-one meeting with their manager to privately express concerns). And it should wrap up with a statement that says “These are our expectations. If you can’t meet this standard, the consequences would be X and Y”. It could also include something like, “This causes serious questions about your professional judgement, and negatively affects the potential for you to (whatever thing this behavior might prevent them from being involved in).”

      I don’t want to get into the “it was on private phones” or “they were using WhatsApp” because people will find a way around stuff like that.

      1. Regina Phalange*

        Agreed. Thankfully this is not my sh*tshow to deal with, it’s my manager’s, but he’s just as befuddled by this all. We do have policies outlined, but they’re general. The person who said the Terrible Thing is a former employee, so nothing to do with him (except a voodoo doll, maybe?), but with the manager it’s a big WTF.

        1. WellRed*

          Honestly, I’d consider one warning to the manager and then firing. I doubt this is his only shortcoming.

    3. Maya Elena*

      I think that this sort of thing should be 95% off-limits for official action. Yes, you should scrutinize these employees’ actions going forward, and downgrade your assessment of their characters, integrity, etc. It should be noted that the slur was not said by a current employee, but by an ex-employee; in the respect of bigotry, the current employees’ guilt is much less. You might be able to censure the manager for participating in complaining sessions with (?) subordinates, but not much else.

      I have no love for and wouln’t trust the snitch who “felt uncomfortable” and reported them. Rather than disengage from a conversation he didn’t like – where, based on your story – nothing on the level of embezzlement, sabotage, or actual discriminatory practice was discussed – he went and told on them. Will he tell on you, too, if one day you engage in a bitching session about your superiors during happy hour (and worse yet, call one of them a bitch)?

      1. Mediamaven*

        You are wrong. If you ever want to demonstrate leadership in a company you do not want to sit back idly and let existing employees participate in this level of disgusting behavior that even involves racism. Literally one negative person can instigate a complete breakdown in a company’s morale and typically the people involved in this type of behavior are bottom players that want to distract from their lack of performance by trying to get other people on the negativity bandwagon. Whistle blowers will not be punished is an actual LAW – go look at your labor poster – and no one should be considered a snitch because they want a positive and comfortable work environment. This isn’t middle school. When I found some dialogue like this years ago between several people I printed it all out, showed to the ring leader and fired her on the spot and threatened a participating manager with termination as well. It bettered the work environment immediately. I’m glad the company is dealing with this.

    4. CM*

      You seem focused on company policies, but I’d think more about the impact of their actions. They’re causing conflict (as you can see because there was a complaint) and complaining about coworkers. You should discipline them even if there isn’t an official policy about this, because their actions are destructive and disrespectful. You should strongly encourage them to shut down the group. You can’t force them to shut down the group, but you can say that if you hear about something like this happening again, you’ll fire them or take further action.

    5. LJay*

      We’re in the US, but my boyfriend recently had to fire an employee for something very similar.

      Basically, one employee posted about another employee saying mean things about them on Facebook and included a photo. She had other employees on Facebook who saw it. One of the other people who saw it went to HR.

      HR determined that this was essentially cyber-bullying and had to be dealt with immediately and after a short investigation the employee who posted was fired.

      In their case, even if it wasn’t done on work computers or necessarily on work time, the fact that it involved another current employee made it something that they were comfortable taking on.

      Which I agree with.

      I mean, think of if you ran into a coworker on public transport, and they harassed you there. Or if a coworker called you from their personal phone number to your personal phone number and threatened you? Wouldn’t you want the workplace to step in and help.

      I would escalate this to HR and to whoever your bosses are immediately. Especially with the use of racial slurs occurring. I would want to make everyone possible above me aware of this to remove myself from potential culpability (for allowing it to continue by not acting and/or not reporting it), and I would be working to fire the employee using racial slurs and the manager that is in the group immediately. I would probably spare the other person since they were the one who reported it. But I would be talking it over with HR before I did anything else since they would be more well-versed in the legality aspect than I would.

      And I also don’t know how this situation would differ in the UK as I know your data privacy laws and worker protections are very different than in the US.

      But I can’t see a situation where you can allow one employee who called another employee the N word while other employees were around to continue to work there.

      And the other manager shows such bad judgement by participating in this group and not reporting the N word incident that they would be gone if I had anything to say about it as well.

      1. LJay*

        Oh, I misread that it was a former employee calling the current one the N word.

        Still, participating in this type of group is not okay.

        I would definitely want to fire the manager that is participating.

        I would likely want to spare the employee who whistleblew on it.

        The third employee it would depend on a lot of factors that I would let HR investigate.

        But I would go to HR and my boss about this immediately still as I would not want to be the one making judgement about this alone. And I would not want the possibility for the perception to exist that I knew about the situation and didn’t do anything about it because I would not want to be viewed as possibly contributing to an environment where harassment was allowed to occur.

  123. KatieKate*

    Anyone have experience using Monday.com as a team communication tool? We’re considering using it for project tracking

    1. LQ*

      …eh. We are using it. I suspect it’s fine, but like all tools it’s about how you implement it. It’s flexible to a very high degree but it’s not really that powerful, it doesn’t do things like templates and structure that well. It’s really good if you’re kind of loosey goosey or you have structure you maintain well, but it won’t maintain it for you.

      (I hate it because of the way it’s been implemented here, it’s not nearly powerful enough for the things I really need it for and they are being weirdly stingy with how they’ve structured it, just pay for the damn licenses, we can afford it, but nooooo, which makes it much less useful. I personally threw in the towel and am using OmniFocus to maintain what is essentially an entire second project management structural tool next to it basically due to the people who implemented it wanting to jump on every single conversation/task and twist it.)

  124. Mrs. Carmen Sandiego JD*

    Are legal certifications (e.g., privacy certification CIPP) worth it, or are they a sham? The one person I know who has it isn’t working in the privacy field at all and never uses it.

    Also, anybody else graduate from law school and take a long time before actually practicing law? What was that like? (Most cases, it feels like graduates are pipelined from graduation/bar passage to associate career then they get burned out and leave–a lot of my classmates had this happen to them).

    1. dealing with dragons*

      check job listings for the certifications. you could probably search on indeed with the name of the certs and see if the jobs looking for them are the jobs you want.

      for instance, I have a job-provided joke of a certification (renewal is a flat $40/year, no retesting) but it’s “preferred” on a lot of job listings.

    2. CM*

      I’m a privacy lawyer and not CIPP-certified, but I would consider becoming certified if I wanted to switch jobs. Seems like a credential people find impressive. I don’t think it’s meaningful on its own, like as an achievement or a way to learn something you couldn’t otherwise learn. There aren’t a lot of legal certifications so I think the value of each one is field-specific.

      Are you currently in law school? The legal profession is so obsessed with credentials and being on a certain trajectory that if you want to be a lawyer later on, I would strongly recommend practicing law immediately out of school. You could hang out your own shingle, but I don’t know if you’d ever be able to get a legal job if you didn’t practice law for at least a few years out of law school.

  125. Ophelia Bumblesmoop*

    How do you handle being party (as a middleman) to a huge conflict?

    I am an admin assistant in the office that handles nearly all outreach, fundraising, event planning, etc. We had a major annual event this week. Last week a resource manager from the main headquarters (that I work with a lot!) asked if we were going to be using all of her particular limited resource we had requested. I told her we were and she asked me if we could adjust things to reduce the number we needed. My boss told me no – we had already worked to reduce the numbers from what we really needed, changed times to accommodate the manager’s ability to get the resource, and put our resource requisition order in for this event more than 8 months ago. I relayed that to the manager who displeased to say the least.

    This week I had a follow up question for her via email that she very rudely and inappropriately shot down. In fact, it was so rude that I started laughing in disbelief when I read it and shared it with my boss. My boss was Not Amused. She stewed about it every time this resource was discussed and let me know that she has a meeting scheduled next week with headquarters to discuss this email.

    I am definitely a non-confrontational person. That’s why I have never pursued management positions. But the idea of a meeting over this manager’s behavior with me makes me ill. I know I did nothing wrong; my emails were very pleasant and professional while hers were not. I will not be at this meeting. But the manager will know I shared the email (and assume I complained about it). To be honest, I completely understand why she was upset at the situation. Bad day, bad situation, lots of extra work for her. But the approval for this resource at our event came from the highest levels of our org and I was simply carrying out instructions. I have to continue to work with her and while I will continue to be pleasant and professional, the idea that she is upset with me bothers me.

    So how can I frame this in my mind? It’s the most stressful time of year, we are all on edge, but these types of confrontations stress me out like crazy.

    2. Achoo!*

      All you have to do is continue to be your pleasant and professional self :). It’s her responsibility to manage her own behavior – and if she can’t, that’s a problem for her and her boss to handle and for you to say, “not my circus” even when you’re in the middle ring. hopefully she’ll calm down and let it be water under the bridge.

    3. Jules the 3rd*

      Do you trust the execs who made the decision about the resource? Do you think that trust is well-founded? Sit and think through the reasons why you trust your execs. This is a kind of positive review that lets you walk away from the stressful ‘bad resource manager resents resource choices’ viewpoint, and keep ‘it’s a stressful time but we’re doing the right thing, best option possible in the circumstances’ as your focus.

      You manager sounds like a good manager, addressing unprofessional behavior directly. Give yourself a little extra self-care this weekend.

    4. Boom! Tetris for Jeff!*

      I think there are two possible re-framings that could help you:
      1) Think of it as a good example for some behaviour interview question story down the line. The crazier this gets and the more professionally you handle it, the better the story!
      2) Imagine that Resource Manager is going through horrible time professionally and/or personally. When she’s through this crisis, she’ll look back and feel a bit ashamed of how she reacted and maybe will be a bit grateful that you remained calm and professional and didn’t allow things to escalate in an ego contest.

      And remember it may feel personal, but it’s not. It’s what you had to do as part of your job.

    5. Lilysparrow*

      A manager lashing out at support staff is never good. Doing it about things they have zero control over is worse. You should not be treated that way, and your manager is very rightly going to bat for you.

      This resource manager needs some professional coaching about how to handle her job and deal with her co-workers appropriately. She may also need to raise issues with headquarters about getting more budget or more resources so these type of crunch situations don’t hit so hard.

      This series of events is just bringing those needs to light, so that headquarters can address them. It’s not about you getting her in trouble or blaming her for anything.

      It’s about identifying a need and bringing it to the person who can meet that need. (Which you can’t do).

  126. House Tyrell*

    Sooo I started a new job this week! I’ve worked paid, 40/hour/week internships and had a part time office job for years at my university so this isn’t my first job, just my first salaried position! It’s not my field, but to respect the office and operate in good faith, I’ve stopped applying to new jobs (but kept some applications open at places I’ve interviewed with or applied to that I would love- I want to keep working in higher ed, which moves at a glacial pace so it may be awhile.) Everyone is nice, we get out at 2pm on Fridays all summer, it’s a nice space (although it’s a 45 minute commute each way for me.) I feel in over my head, but it’s my first week so I’m giving myself time to get it and feel competent.

    My cubicle is next to the HR office shared by the 2 reps for our home office, and they leave their door open for air circulation. On my very first day, they were speaking very candidly about the problems some guy with my same title was having and that they may potentially need to fire him. I didn’t know him since I was brand new, but the information about him would make it obvious who it was for someone else. It was very awkward for me and makes me worry about privacy if I ever had issues. The other people in the open floor were either on the phone or engrossed in their work and didn’t hint that they noticed, but since I didn’t have much to do since it was day 1, I definitely did. I didn’t say anything because it was so awkward and I didn’t know what to do and I was the new person. How should I have approached this and what should I do if it happens again?

    1. Lumen*

      If it happens again, get up, go to their doorway, and just quietly mention “Sorry to interrupt, but I’m able to overhear you from my desk and it sounds like this might not be for my ears. Would you like me to close the door?”

      They likely just don’t realize you can hear them so clearly, or forgot you were there (since you are new and they may not be used to someone being that close). Other people may have just been tuning it out or don’t mind hearing private info. I’m sure they’ll appreciate the heads up.

  127. Asking for a friend*

    Anyone have suggestions on possible recourse when someone was misclassified as a contractor rather than an employee?

    Asking for a younger (somewhat naive) friend–he was a FT employee, then when he moved to part time his company reclassified him as a contractor. However, his job continued exactly as it had been with fewer hours. He came into the office very day, had to ask for permission to work remotely, was paid every two weeks, did routine work for the company. The only difference was that he left at 3pm instead of 5pm.

    He agreed because he didn’t realize what the implications would be, and he was shocked by the resulting super high tax bill. On the one hand, he really should have done some research into what this would mean, and the fact that he didn’t is 100% on him. On the other hand, is there anything he can do now?

    2. Coverage Associate*

      There’s a way to submit a tax return indicating you think you were misclassified. Then the tax people go after the employer for the unpaid payroll and other taxes.

      It may be the type of thing where it’s good to bring in a professional tax preparer.

    3. Natalie*

      He can file Form SS-8 and ask the IRS to make a determination. The form isn’t too difficult – it’s mostly narrative explanation of why he believes he’s an employee. If he’s already filed his taxes for 2018, he will be able to amend the return for up to three years from the original filing deadline and can recoup the taxes his employer should have paid if the IRS agrees that he is an employee. If he has not filed yet, he still files the SS-8 but then gets to chose between filing as self employed and amending later, or filing as an employee with an attached Form 8919.

      However, he should be aware the difference in tax liability between an employee and an independent contractor is only ~6.5%.* If his large tax bill is partially due to his not having paid in throughout the year via withholding or estimated payments, being reclassified will not change anything about that. The liability for those taxes always rested with him and they will remain due.

      *SE FICA is calculated with a built in deduction so the effective rate is 14.13% compared to 7.65% for an employee.

  128. Anon (this time)*

    I went ahead and applied for that internal position. I spoke to a coworker who I knew had gone through the internal process before just to get his take on it – did he feel that it was fairly handled, was he supported, etc. Then I spoke with someone who has held the role before, explicitly because I wanted to hear any dealbreakers that would stop me from applying before I brought it to my supervisor.

    And then I spoke with my supervisor, and she was very supportive, and up-front with me about who else she would communicate with about it, and we had a good chat about it. I applied last night and let her know it’s in progress.

    Thanks for AAM commentariat for encouraging me to go for it. The company isn’t perfect but a role change could give me what I need without making me start over somewhere else.

  129. Please Remain On Hold*

    Is anyone else in a holding pattern situation (as in you have not yet “arrived” at your desired destination) and how do you survive it?? I felt like I was on a solid career path at a gigantic brand for close to a decade, then a reorg happened and I got laid off. I am not someone who does well with uncertainty and I immediately took a job at a small agency (HUGE lifestyle change!!) even before the severance kicked in. Well, it’s been 9 months now, and I am not sold that I am an agency person. I want to go back to a brand. But the opportunities I see aren’t anything like what I did pre-layoff. I am trying to network and be happy with my current gig but sometimes it kills me. I just feel like I am in the wrong place and I even think I have a little PTSD about the layoff from so many months ago. I know I shouldn’t because it happened to many people and wasn’t personal, but it really hurts. I mean, it hurts enough that I hear a song that I remember hearing at the previous job and it makes me sad!!! It’s like a bad breakup. And I feel like I am now just perpetually on hold. I don’t know if there’s a better way for me to handle this all–any ideas?

    1. Jules the 3rd*

      1) Develop a plan and timeline that’s realistic and doesn’t risk looking like job hopping – ie, at least another 6mo before you start looking seriously. Once you start looking, keep your standards reaaaaally high for at least 3mo; after a short stay, you want to really stick with the new one for a while, make sure you get everything right – job duties, company culture, everything.
      2) Make the most of your current opportunity. Write down how the agency and brand jobs are different, as far as type of skills needed, type of clients, future opportunities. If nothing else, that will help you focus on jobs you really want. But also look into what skills (esp soft skills) are different between the two, and nail down any you really like or dislike.

    2. atgo*

      Oof rough. So sorry that you’re hurting about the lay off! Totally makes sense to me, that’s a huge loss of 10 years of something you did with most of your time. Sounds like you’re grieving, understandably.

      There are a bunch of people leaving my company right now because it’s a mess. One of them said to me, “I want a rebound job. You know, the hot, fun, exciting thing that you do for a bit after a bad breakup.” For her, she’s looking for more pay. Others are looking for more structure, or a bigger name, or whatever.

      My takeaway, that I hope is helpful to you: the next job after a significant and traumatic one doesn’t need to be “the one.” I’ve been putting a lot of pressure on myself to find the perfect next steps, but I’m trying to remember that getting out of the toxicity (with some trauma for sure) is a totally fine thing to do for a while, and just finding a respite (even if it’s not super fulfilling or doesn’t totally fit my lifestyle) is a great choice. Maybe for you, this agency gig is a place to lick your wounds for a bit and get your feet back under you after the loss.

    3. MPA*

      Just wanted to extend my symapthies about the job loss feeling like a bad breakup. I had that happen (I didn’t lose my job, but definitely had my heart broken by it) and it’s the sort of thing that is hard for other people to understand. You were asked to stop doing something you sincerely loved before you were ready. It makes sense.
      Wishing all the best for you!

  130. Pam Beesly*

    Has anyone worked as (or know someone who has worked as) an EA for a General Manager in the sports industry? I’d love to learn more about it but my networking attempts haven’t been successful.

  131. Sad Coworker*

    Long time lurker, first-time poster! My team had a new employee start in January, and we became friendly coworkers. The trouble is, about a month after she joined us, her husband filed for divorce. It was out of the blue and obviously, she is heartbroken. Our manager accommodated her as much as possible — letting her work from home, giving her time off — and we all rallied around her.

    Two months in, though, and she’s still constantly barraging (mostly) me with her feelings about it. She cries at her desk, she sends me endless messages about her grief and she spends most of our fun team lunch outings making oblique statements about her heartbreak that are hard to ignore.

    I’ve tried to draw boundaries with her, which works for a few days, but then she “backslides” and it’s right back to where we started. Since I befriended her somewhat when she started (and as the only other woman), I am seen as the natural recipient of these emotions, both by her and my other coworkers. How do I strike a balance between compassion and losing my own sanity/productivity?

    1. Formerly Arlington*

      This always happens to me. I have a very expressive face, and people sometimes will misunderstand my sympathy as “I am here for you, always, even when I am really busy at work.” If you feel UP to it, maybe say, “Hey, I am slammed at work but we should grab a drink sometime and talk about this!!” I think it is important to assert your boundaries. Even if she didn’t have such an upsetting situation, you likely couldn’t talk about non-work things that often while at work!

    2. MissDisplaced*

      Oh dear!
      I think you’ve got to nip this much in the same way AAM has said to address the constantly complaining coworkers. Acknowledge it, show sympathy, but kindly let them know it needs to stop.

      “Cersei, I’m truly sorry you’re going through this distressing divorce, but frankly it’s beginning to affect your work and work relationships in negative ways. I understand it’s difficult and people want to be supportive, but at this point you might want to consider seeking some outside counseling to help you manage your emotions and assist you with managing the process of moving forward.”

      1. fposte*

        Yes. And reiterate specifically that messages about her feelings, to you or to other people at the workplace, should stop.

    3. WellRed*

      Yeah, even Carrie on SATC got sent to a therapist after boring her best friends with all her breakup moping. In an office? New job? Hard no and frankly, I worry there will be other oversharing, inappropriateness.

    4. The New Wanderer*

      When I was the complainer (breakup, not divorce, but it was a doozy), I kinda wished my friends at the time had pushed back on me a lot more. I *know* I was going overboard on the one topic, but I couldn’t help myself if I felt I was getting sympathy. One person finally did do the SATC intervention thing of telling me I should consider a counselor if I was having that much difficulty managing. I didn’t (should have much sooner, tbh) but it kind of shocked me into limiting what I shared, in a good way. Rather than feelings’ing all over people, I had a little more stability in how I interacted with people. And for me it honestly was limited to that one situation – I’m usually a closed book about personal stuff – so it might not be indicative of truly inappropriate boundaries, but it’s reasonable to keep that in mind.

      She might not be ready to hear that yet, but you wouldn’t be the bad guy in gently reminding her to rein it in at work, even if it’s just you two. I think MissDisplaced has some good phrasing. Understanding, but setting limits.

    5. Quandong*

      I’d try using some of these scripts (adapted from Captain Awkward), and just keep repeating them.

      If you haven’t already done so, tell her that you aren’t the right person to send messages about her grief and that she needs to stop doing that. If she keeps sending them, respond with the same statement each time e.g. ‘I’m not the right person to process this with, it’s making me uncomfortable and affecting my work. I need you to stop sending messages like this.’

      ‘I know things are tough for you, but I need to set a boundary: I’m really uncomfortable with how much of our time we spend talking about your divorce and I am going to start changing the subject when the topic comes up.’

      ‘I’m sorry that things are so hard for you right now.+ [Subject Change]’

      ‘I don’t want to be the support person for your feelings anymore. I understand you’re having a hard time but it’s not okay to send me messages or talk about it all the time. Please talk to a friend outside of work or a counsellor about this, I can’t do it any more.’

      ‘That’s as much divorce feelings-talk as I can handle today.’

      ‘I am not the right person to process this with.’

      In case you need to take this to a manager i.e. she doesn’t stop sending you messages, and otherwise interrupts the flow of your work, document what has been happening, and what you have done to address it. If there’s no change despite your renewed attempts to set boundaries, I would consider taking it to your manager.

  132. FreddyLongJohns*

    Advice for dress code for a Skype interview with an ad agency? The company has a lot of remote works, but I think the dress code in the actual office is pretty casual (jeans and t shirts are okay). Should I just go with a nice button up shirt? Do I need a tie and jacket if I’m sitting in my bedroom? Feels like it’d be too much

    1. Formerly Arlington*

      I’d go with just a nice shirt. I’m at an agency as well as people are super causal, and for interviews in person, men usually wear either a button down or button down with tie.

    2. No Tribble At All*

      Make sure you have a good backdrop for yourself! If you’re interviewing from your bedroom, make sure you don’t have dirty laundry, etc visible from the screen.

  133. LizzE*

    Since my organization is going through a big redesign, I have enlisted the help of a temp, Sansa, to carry some event planning and project support duties due to help me with my growing plate of responsibilities – and she has been great! Although I am not sure if there will be a chance to hire her full-time, I have been cognizant of praising her work publicly and connect to projects where she has visibility at our organization.

    This morning, she came to me mortified because of something a friend of hers, Melisandre, did that has her worried about her reputation. Apparently last night, Melisandre was attending an industry related event and it just so happens that the keynote speaker was the number 2 at my organization, the Chief Operating Officer, Dany. After the event, Melisandre approached Dany and introduced herself as a friend of Sansa’s. She then proceeded to tell Dany that Sansa is hardworking and really wants a job at my organization, and that they should consider hiring her full-time.

    This is obviously bothering Sansa and I want to help her navigate through this. I am a bit junior in my organization since our organizational redesign left us with the bare bones of the department. I do have a decent relationship with Dany, but I am not sure what is the best course of action: let it blow over, or say something to Dany?

    Thoughts?

    1. LaDeeDa*

      Oh no! Thanks Melisandre, that was SOOOO helpful! /sarcasm
      I wouldn’t say anything, I am sure Dany thought Mel was weird and has already forgotten about it.

    2. fposte*

      I don’t think it’s anything that anybody needs to be mortified about, save for Melisandre, who needs to keep her nose out of other people’s work and get a clue about why (hint: all you can do in this situation is make things worse, not better, for your friend). I would tell Sansa to leave it and talk to Dany myself, using the opportunity to note your interest in keeping her on: “So I heard about Sansa’s friend approaching you and wanted to let you know it wasn’t her idea and she’s mortified. It’s true that she’d be great to hire on permanently, though, and I was going to bring that up with you myself–are there things she and I could do to make that happen or make that more likely?”

  134. How to adjust to a new boss?*

    Hi everyone,
    I just got a new boss. My previous boss was honestly the best boss I’ve had in my career, respectful, makes you feel really intelligent and valued, etc. He just retired. It’s too soon yet to tell with my current boss how he will be. Some days he’s warm and friendly, other days, he is short/all business. I have anxiety issues so of course I’m reading into things that are likely not there. However I’ve heard from HR that one of his direct reports might not be getting renewed. Is this his decision after being here all of a week and a half? Are they making him be the bad guy because my nice boss was just conflict avoidant (don’t think this was the case)? I just don’t know. I think everything will be okay, but any tips you have on navigating a new boss would be appreciated. Thanks!

    1. Analytical Tree Hugger*

      Consider asking for an initial meeting with NewBoss, to discuss questions you would ask a prospective hiring manager at a new job, e.g. “What types of people and work styles have thrived under you?”, “My official goals for the year are XYZ and here is where I am on them, based on this evaluation system. Could you tell me your thoughts on how you would approach evaluating my performance?”

  135. Coverage Associate*

    Offer from the firm where I started interviewing a few weeks back is less than I am making now. I will try to negotiate more. The people are really nice, and it’s probably a better position than my current one, looking long term.

  136. LaDeeDa*

    My job isn’t the best ever, but it does have a lot of perks- they pay is good, I work from home 90% of the time, I don’t have to travel more than once a quarter, and while my boss leaves a lot to be desired, it is no problem when I decide, at the last minute to take the day off. We are on a conference call right this minute, and I am so tired of dealing with this one guy, I messaged her “Hey, I am over talking to the “well, actually” crowd. I think after this call I am going to take the rest of the day off unless you need me.” She LOL’d, sent a high-5 emoji, and told me to enjoy my long weekend. Sometimes it is the little things.
    Now if this jerk would stop mansplaining my own work to me I could log off for the rest of the day and pour a beer!

    1. Camellia*

      Have you seen “The Cell Block Mansplaingo” on YouTube? It’s hilarious. And too tempting.

      1. LaDeeDa*

        OMG hahah no I haven’t seen that, that is awesome. Thanks for sharing it! I just it to my boss and she is dying.

  137. Finally Published*

    This is late in the day, but my creative side hustle is finally paying me money (not enough money to live on) and I am *so distracted* at my day job, it is terrible. My day job pays my bills and needs to be my priority, but it is boring. My creative side hustle may never make enough to retire on but could easily become 8 hours a day or effort sigh. I wonder if my boss will understand if my productivity at work tanks.

  138. Nacho*

    Kind of pissed off at my job right now. I work in a call center where call volume varies pretty hard. Sometimes the calls are back to back, sometimes we’ve got 10-20 minutes in between. Technically, if we’re not working on a call, we’re supposed to be handling emails instead, but it’s pretty standard for people to use that time to chat, browse the web, post on the company facebook, etc…. Apparently the boss of one of the other teams who shares my space has a problem with that because he caught me reading comics between calls and told my boss, who then takes me aside and tells me that this is technically Pip worthy and I can’t do this anymore.

    I get that it’s against the rules, but it’s a fucking call center for heaven’s sakes. I’m not sure why they care as long as our numbers stay high.

    1. WellRed*

      What an ass! Sometimes, ya just need a comics break. Not every second needs to be productive or actionable (look at me, using stupid corporate jargon).

  139. copier queen*

    Feedback please re: company newsletters for internal marketing (Purpose – highlight accomplishments and special projects from each division, and keep all employees in the loop).
    We have 27 different divisions in our 7,500 employee company…from payroll to landscaping. I have been asked by our CEO to work with the division heads to gather content about their division, and then develop the content into a 1 page newsletter for each division, to be shared with all employees. Each division will appear in the newsletter quarterly.
    Do y’all have ideas/suggestions of the kind of content I should include?
    I’m thinking…
    – Recent projects/accomplishments
    – Division employee spotlight
    – Did you know? (Share little-known info about division)
    -What else???

    1. MissDisplaced*

      Usually these things include what you’ve noted. Also maybe consider:
      >Customer wins
      >Community service (could be the employee spotlight) but a lot of divisions do this stuff as a team
      >Milestones & Awards
      >Things that specifically tie back to the company mission or values or what I call ‘walking the talk’
      recycling / green efforts
      customer centric things
      innovation efforts, savings, new ways of doing things

  140. LaDeeDa*

    Oh no! Thanks Melisandre, that was SOOOO helpful! /sarcasm
    I wouldn’t say anything, I am sure Dany thought Mel was weird and has already forgotten about it.

  141. Grace*

    I’ve just got out of the last exam of my degree! BA History. It’s been a stressful few weeks – dissertation deadline 13th of May, then one exam on the 21st and the other today. But it’s done now. And now to figure out what the hell to do with the rest of my life…

    I’ve come to the conclusion that while an MA might be on the cards at some point, it’s not right now – but I don’t know what else to do. I applied for a couple of internships that would have been next month but got rejections for both, annoyingly. Right now, I’m looking at finding a temp job that will hopefully take me through to the end of summer, which should give me the time and experience to let me track down something that I want to stick with for at least a couple of years. UniTemps seems to have a few. Guess how I’m spending my weekend…

    1. ..Kat..*

      Does your university have a job placement center?

      Good luck and congratulations on finishing your degree!

  142. oona*

    So I have an issue coming up at work. It’s a tale as old as time, unfortunately. I think I’ve figured out its an issue early enough that I might be able to avoid too much drama if I have some guidance.

    I have a new coworker who started about a month ago. He is a married man in his mid-thirties with a young child, and I am a single, childless woman in my late twenties. We have a shared interest, punk rock. He has been messaging me a lot on slack about bands which was fine though a bit distracting as it was frequent. Then he followed me on Instagram and slid into my DMs. I responded to a message or two there and then stopped. He tried again to move our conversations to Instagram and I said no, I can’t focus on work while also being on Instagram and I now just don’t reply to anything not on slack/outside of work hours. He has started complimenting me a lot for my work (I am good at my job but not a stand out by any means) and slipping in little hints that he’s lonely/unhappy with his life, the biggest one being he hasn’t been able to participate in the punk scene since becoming a father and he would like to. I ignore these messages.

    I have existed as a woman long enough to know what the angle is here. He hasn’t stepped so far out of line that I feel the need to say anything explicit to him or bring in management, and if possible I would like to avoid doing so, though I am definitely not opposed. I’m just wondering if anyone has had luck shutting this shit down early/how you did it effectively.

    1. Rainy*

      Oh my god. I’m so sorry he’s doing this to you.

      Keep those boundaries tall and explicit, and if you feel your manager will be receptive, maybe mention it as a “I’m concerned about where this is going” so that if this blows up it won’t be a huge shock. I’d also block him on all your social media sites that he has access to. As far as I’m concerned, he lost his social media privileges when he slid into your DMs.

    3. oona*

      I should quickly add, I was going to block him on Instagram but then he deleted his whole account. I don’t know why, it seemed weird, I’m not about to ask him any questions about it.

      1. Rainy*

        His wife saw something, or he suspects she saw something. I’m pretty sure you can set it so that only accounts you follow can DM you, and I would do so–and then be careful about following back.

    4. Asenath*

      Cut out any communication that is not work-related – nothing about shared interests like punk music. Become cool and impersonal and maybe a little bored with him. It sounds like he’s not taking the hints you’ve provided by cutting off Instagram and after-work messaging, so you need to be a bit more direct by becoming extremely business-like. If that doesn’t work, tell him outright that your relationship is business-only, and if he won’t hear that, you may have to escalate to your manager, but with any luck he’ll realize earlier that you just aren’t interested and move on.

    5. fposte*

      I also think it’s fine to say something explicit, or at least loaded. “Bob, this is heading into more social media/nonwork involvement than I like, so I’m pulling back.” It doesn’t have to mean saying “Bob, you’re either flirting with me or using me as an emotional attention tool, and I don’t care which, because I’m not on board.”

    6. WellRed*

      Why, oh why, must they do this? People, a shared interest does not mean we want a relationship.

    7. LaDeeDa*

      UGGG so annoying. If he messages you something on Slack that is not anything work-related, don’t reply. He will hopefully get the hint, and not press the issue. Of course, block him on all your personal stuff.

    8. Lumen*

      First of all: UGH. Uggggh. I’m flashing back to the dude at ToxicJob who decided to follow up his compliments about my ‘great style’ (anytime I wore a skirt) by telling me about how he’d love to be in an open marriage if his wife weren’t so religious. Crap like this is like the Lost in Space robot flailing in my head: “DANGER, LUMEN, DANGER!”

      Second of all: there’s nothing like a well-placed thumbs-up emoji in response to someone who just rambled at you on Slack (or anywhere else). It’s the plausible deniability emoji version of “Cool story, bro”. I know it’s passive-aggressive and off-putting, but… then again, so is he.

    9. Quandong*

      FWIW I would take screenshots of non-work messages he sends on work slack, in case you need documentation to show management if he continues with this inappropriate behaviour.

      Start being cool and unresponsive to his bids for attention regarding his personal life. Change the topic back to work, always, just keep redirecting and making it boring for him. Pretend you never discussed punk rock at all. Make less eye contact, and use minimal civil responses when he speaks to you.

      I’m so sorry he’s doing this. What a complete and utter jerk he is.

  143. Kate Daniels*

    I’m hoping we are let out early today for the holiday weekend! Although I do wish they let everyone out “x hours early” instead of setting a specific time like “at 3 pm” because we all have different start times, so it’s less of a benefit for those who start early and would otherwise leave at 4 or 4:30 compared to those who start much later and would otherwise leave at 5:30 or 6.

    1. Lumen*

      I think about this in my own office because I am one of the people who arrives later. There’s quite a bit of flexibility on start times in my department, so we’re talking about people who might get here early and end up working 2 more hours than I do but getting paid for the same 8 on an early close day.

      So I sometimes feel a twinge of guilt or something, and then I remember: no one is forcing them to come in earlier. They could come in late on an early close day if they wished. That’s their choice.

  144. AnonNow*

    My spouse (who prefers he/him pronouns for general discussion) is bi-gender and is currently looking for work. At what stage in the hiring process would you recommend discussing this with an employer? His masculine persona is very dominant but there will definitely be days where it’s necessary to go to work while in the feminine persona.

    He uses the same name at all times so that’s unlikely to be an issue, but we’re wondering when and how to bring up the changes in dress and demeanor that will be readily apparent on those days.

    1. Anonymous Educator*

      At what stage in the hiring process would you recommend discussing this with an employer?

      I’d say right after the job offer or right after the acceptance of the job offer. At the latest, when filling out paperwork for HR.

      1. AnonNow*

        Thanks! Would you recommend starting the conversation with the manager, HR, both, or someone else?

        1. Anonymous Educator*

          I’d probably start with the hiring manager or the person your spouse would report to.

    2. often ambiguous*

      no advice, just solidarity! I’m also multigender with a dominant masculine persona (I use the same name at all times but also use multiple pronouns). I actually just had a chat with an external recruiter that I’ve worked with previously where I disclosed to the recruiter, but this feels like a very sensitive and anxiety-provoking topic. I’ve been on a lot of interviews where my pronouns and gender presentation became an obvious point of uncertainty for the interviewer, which doesn’t help with the anxiety.

      1. AnonNow*

        We appreciate the solidarity! He’s only recently come out after a lifetime of dysphoria and confusion, so this is all new, a little scary, and more than a little exciting.

    3. Washi*

      I’m not very familiar with what bi-gender means; does he use pronouns besides he/him? If so, how does he generally communicate which pronouns to use on a given day? Or does he always use the same pronouns and just presents differently on different days?

      1. often ambiguous*

        bigender means that the person is two genders :) (usually male + female, although bigender people can also have non-binary genders, and some bigender people use it to mean 2+ genders) (personally, I feel that I’m at least 3 genders but I sometimes use bigender as shorthand)

        some bigender people are two genders simultaneously and use multiple pronouns simultaneously (which practically means switching between pronouns, potentially during the same conversation)

        other bigender people have elements of genderfluidity or genderflux, where they are different genders (or different ‘intensities’ of a gender) at various times. could be tied to hormonal cycles, day-by-day, neurodivergence-related, related to personal events that they’ve experienced, or no particular reason, just fluidity of our lived experiences.

        1. Washi*

          Thank you! If you don’t mind sharing, I’m wondering how you’ve communicated preferred pronouns/any pronoun changes to coworkers?

          1. often ambiguous*

            for administrative stuff, i use the pronoun that aligns with my legal gender marker (which required an update vs my original hiring paperwork). i’ve also let people know that if they’re most comfortable with using a single pronoun to refer to me, please use that one.

            our company social media profile has a spot where users can optionally specify their pronouns (useful for international teams!) and i’ve specified multiple pronouns there. if people use one pronoun for me and then correct themselves, i let them know that i use multiple pronouns and depending on context/rapport i might go into more detail about being multigender. :)

            my absolute favorite when it comes to gender euphoria is when i’m in a group conversation and one person says ‘she’ to refer to me and then someone else says ‘he’ and then someone else says ‘they’ :) i’m more of the simultaneous-experiences-of-different-genders type of multigender though!

    4. Camellia*

      Pardon my ignorance, but why would it be *necessary” to go to work while in the feminine person? Is this job related?

      1. often ambiguous*

        because that would be an authentic expression of a bigender person’s lived experience! engaging with life (including work) while presenting masculine when your lived gender experience is feminine is very internally disoriented and distressing and often leads to very real stress and detrimental mental health effects. even if that lived experience seems short-lived or fluctuating, it’s still real and totally valid for a non-binary person to make it a condition of their future employment that it be a safe environment for that gender expression. (sadly many of us do not have the privilege to enforce that condition, but it’s GREAT when those who have a bit of a safety net or just more of a fuck-it attitude can be visible and advocate to make safer workplaces for the rest of us!)

      2. Grace*

        I suspect it’s mental-health-related – in other words, on those days, going to work in masculine clothes with everyone calling her masculine pronouns would be a really really bad idea for her wellbeing, but on most days he’s going to be using masculine pronouns and dressing in a masculine way.

        (Open to correction – I’m cis, but with trans friends and family, and this is going off what I’ve been told.)

        1. fposte*

          Yes, I didn’t read it as a work necessity, just a personal necessity that mean her presence at work that day would be female.

          1. AnonNow*

            Yes, exactly! On workdays when my spouse is female, she’s still got to work. Gender identity has no respect for the calendar.

  145. I just wanna make teapots... I think?*

    So, suppose you’re working on Teapot Enablement at Prestigious Tea Company. PTC is facing a lot of challenges with teapot supply chain management (and internal production), so you’ve identified lots of ways of improving teapot delivery. Some of those methods have been adopted, but you still regularly struggle with getting internal buy-in and justifying $$ investment in teapot delivery, even though PTC is spending $$$$$ on after-market teapot service to ensure that customers will still buy their tea.

    Let’s say you still find the fundamental problems interesting and challenging, and the only other way you’d get *such* a robust view of the tea lifecycle is with another tea company that also happens to make and sell their own teapots. But you’re feeling pretty burned out on the day-to-day life with PTC, and most of your favorite colleagues have moved on to other jobs anyway, plus all of the teapot makers at PTC agree that they need tools to make teapots and test those teapots to make sure they don’t shatter and spill scalding water on PTC’s customers… but you need different tools to make and test teapots for corporate customers vs nonprofit customers vs home buyers, and the people who can write the check ask why we can’t just use the same tools for all customers. (They’re different shapes! Some use much hotter water! Some need to be all-in-one! Some will pay a premium so they can use their teapot constantly, others only need it to make tea once a week!)

    And maybe you’re wondering if you actually care about tea or teapots at all, because you’ve been volunteering with Chocolate Distribution Nonprofit and even though chocolate distribution probably won’t have full-time gigs for enablement, you realize you’re really excited about capacity planning and bottleneck identification and managing work in process, not specifically tea or chocolate. So it’s probably time to find a different job, right?

    How do you go about interviewing when you’re a) still _interested_ in the fundamental problems you’re working on (and especially the boundary problems) but b) cynical about whether your role is *actually* able to address them meaningfully in your organization or industry and c) really burned out on the day to day? I had a recruiter ask me what would get me to move on and to be completely honest I think “decent conferencing software to have meetings with colleagues in other locations” might do the trick, but I told him I felt that I was spread too thin and I’d like to be able to deepen my knowledge in specific areas, but I feel like that makes me seem a lot less motivated to move than I really am.

    (P.S. For bonus points: what would you do — or say in response to ‘why are you thinking about leaving’ — if you were led to believe for nearly half a year that there would be an opportunity for a promotion “soon” and then when “soon” comes along in turns out your opportunity for promotion was “lost in the shuffle”?)

    1. LaDeeDa*

      I usually say something like “I am ready for a new challenge in the area of… ” I also like “I am ready to use my skills and experience with a new team!” or “I am pretty satisfied here, but when I saw this job at this company I was really interested because what I know about this company seems like to would be a great fit for my skills.”
      I never really get into the why, I don’t want to say negative things about my company or team. It never comes across well.

  146. L.S. Cooper*

    How do I ask about what I get paid for without sounding presumptuous? I’m an hourly contractor, but my coworkers treat me more like an exempt employee– I don’t get PTO, but they do insist that I get paid for holidays that the office is closed, and they encourage me to leave with the rest of the team on early Fridays. So, I’m fairly sure that they’ll pay me for Memorial Day, but not 100%. Is there a good way to bring it up with my boss? Normally she stops by my desk to remind me of these things before she leaves for the day before a holiday, but she’s taken today off.

    1. Rainy days*

      There’s nothing presumptuous about asking for clarity on your salary. Simply write an email and treat it just like you’re double-checking a due date or something–you want to know a relevant fact.

    2. fposte*

      Do you mean you want to find out by end of day today? Then I think you’d need to find somebody else who has knowledge of your contract; depending on your time zone, that might not be manageable. Would this information change what you’d do on Monday or could it wait until your boss is back on Tuesday?

      And it would be absolutely fine to say “Boss, could we meet to go over what time off my contract covers? I hate to keep asking you holiday by holiday.”

      1. L.S. Cooper*

        I thankfully don’t have to give her the time sheet until the end of the week, it’s just that I normally know beforehand. But I think I will probably just wait until Tuesday!

    3. The Man, Becky Lynch*

      Just ask! You don’t need to worry about this. When you need clarity on your salary/compensation, please just ask. I know it feels weird but it’s never presumptuous or inappropriate.

      I have had people ask me about paid holidays all the time, especially those coming from places that never offered them. It never phases me other than to just answer their question. My job is to make sure people understand their compensation and benefits packages, it’s very typical question wise.

  147. Carrie Fisher's Middle Finger*

    Well … the paperwork for the job I thought I was moving to finally came through, a month later.

    In the meantime, though, I got an offer for a different position that’s about a $7k pay bump from my current one and doesn’t involve any of the things I don’t like about my job now (and the original, long-awaited offer …). So it seems it was meant to be! It only took them a week to get their paperwork to me, so I signed that this morning, and here we are. I start in July.

    Honestly, I’m just glad to be out of here in general, but boy does the change in scope and salary help!

    2. The Man, Becky Lynch*

      Congratulations! How exciting, I hope that the transition is as smooth as their paperwork process was =)

      What a difference money and cutting out the annoying tasks makes [been there, done it, got the t-shirt], it’s seriously a game changer.

  148. coffee cup*

    My colleague is absolutely lovely and I really like her as a person (and mostly as a colleague!). But recently she’s been working on editing something about sexual health services, and she can’t stop giggling at various bits of the text. I don’t mind an amusing sentence at all (we can many that evidently are supposed to mean one thing but the wording has made it sound like something entirely different!) but the things she’s been highlighting aren’t funny to me at all. They’re basic stuff like talking about condom use. I did my best to shut it down without being mean, because she doesn’t intend anything by it, but it’s been distracting.

    Nothing to be done, just had to vent a bit!

    1. Auntie Social*

      But if you’re giggling at instruction on how to put on a condom, you either need to keep your titters (see what I did there?) to yourself, or admit that you’re in middle school and give the project back.

      1. Environmental Compliance*

        Yeah, there’s a point where you need to shore up your maturity and keep the giggles to yourself. I’m all for unintended innuendos and will get the giggles from them, but when it’s part of what you’re actually doing – editing sexual health services documents – after the fourth time, that’s a bit much. Perhaps I’m a bit sensitive on that, but seriously – to have a place to go for sexual health services of many kinds is a highly beneficial thing for many health departments, clinics, etc to provide to the general population. Grow up and stop giggling at the word condom, or penis, or vagina, etc.

  149. Fat Shamed Front Desker*

    I work for a major hotel chain. In the summer, we are allowed to wear a company-provided sleeveless top (thick straps, not spaghetti). Everyone wears this just fine, except my manager told me today I can longer wear it and must always wear my jacket over it because my “arm fat jiggles too much.”

    I am a bigger girl, and I know this and own it, but I’m really upset about this because I’m being singled out for my size.

    I don’t even know what to feel right now. Or what I should even do, aside from throw my access card in his face and quit. (Which I can’t afford to do)

    1. Rainy days*

      I don’t know what advice to give you but I am really sorry and that is so, so f*d up.

    2. WellRed*

      Since it’s a national chain, are you comfortable kicking this to HR or the regional mgr? Or, ignoring him ( is it a him?). This is assuming you are in the U.S.

    3. Harper*

      So would love to see you throw my access card in his face. What a jerk. This has to be considered harassment?

    4. Sneaky Ninja for this one*

      Your manager sucks. I’m fairly certain that the dress code has to be applied evenly. If someone else can show arms, you can, too. Try talking to your boss’s boss or even HR.

      1. fposte*

        It has to be applied without illegal discrimination. In most jurisdictions, weight isn’t a protected category, so it could be legal to apply different standards to people who are overweight. Though usually dress code inequalities are applied only to overweight *women*, which can be a leverage point.

        And your manager is an ass, and age will bring news to them about what makes arms jiggle.

        1. Rusty Shackelford*

          I imagine the sleeveless top isn’t offered as an option for men… how would that impact this?

          1. fposte*

            Legally, who knows? But the way I’d frame it is “Only women seem to have a dress code that varies according to weight.” And honestly, it’s not loopholing–the issue here is that the manager wants OP to be a particular kind of decorative object to show her arms.

    6. LaDeeDa*

      Oh goodness, I am so sorry you had to deal with that, what an a-hole! Sadly, in almost every state size discrimination is legal. I rarely recommend involving HR in most things, but I would. This is a major chain, and I doubt they would want this kind of thing happening. Do you have an HR rep locally, or know the name of the one assigned to your location? I would send a note and ask them how you should handle it.

      “My manager told me that I can no longer wear the company provided sleeveless top without a jacket because my “arm fat jiggles too much.” I am upset not only at the offensive language used, but for being singled out, and not allowed to wear what everyone else is allowed to wear. Can you please help me navigate this difficult and uncomfortable situation?”

      Good luck, and please let us know what happens *hugs*

    7. Amber Rose*

      Do you have an HR person you can go to? That’s really messed up and inappropriate.

    8. Eleanor Shellstrop*

      UGH, I am so sorry you are dealing with this. I don’t understand how people are able to say terrible things like that and not hear themselves. Like. Why would you ever think this is a good thing to say to another human person???
      LaDeeDa’s language for bringing this up to HR sounds very good. Good luck.

    9. The Man, Becky Lynch*

      WHAT THE F…

      It’s a hotel front desk, not Hooters, you shouldn’t have to fit some kind of ridiculous standard in order to wear a uniform option.

      Is there another hotel in the area you can transfer to, this guy is a total loser and I’m sorry that you’ve been treated this way. I would lodge a complaint myself but I have the luxury of not caring about if someone wants to try some petty retaliation on me and I know this job is something that you need.

    10. LGC*

      GIRL TELL ME WHERE YOU WORK I WILL FIGHT YOUR MANAGER ONE ON ONE

      But seriously, how’s HIS boss? That’s a really offensive comment, and honestly kind of explicit. I’d go over his head in this case.

      If I were you I’d also wear the jacket and then take it off and move your arms when your manager is around, but I’m extremely petty.

    11. Quandong*

      I’m so sorry. What your manager said is utterly unacceptable and it’s not okay, and I’m sure they wouldn’t say this to a man.

      If I were you, I’d document what he said, and go to HR. LaDeeDa’s script below is very good.

    12. Sovereign HR*

      I do wonder who else this person told and what their response was.

      “I told OP to cover up her arms because her fat jiggles too much.”

      “?!?!?!?!?!”

      That person should put h** in h** place right then and there.

  150. Work-life Engineer*

    Is it normal for your boss to record 1-1’s? I work in IT/software develpment and everyone is very lazy about technical debt and the codebase, so I haven’t been super gung ho about things either. My ideas for improvement are usually dismissed the rare times I do speak up, so I kinda have a passive attitude and just do what I’m asked to the best of my ability. My new boss often comes late or tries to reschedule or cancel our 1-1’s and I notice when we.do have them, he records them (we are on Zoom calls). Is this normal? Legal??

    1. fposte*

      It’s almost certainly legal, but it’s unusual; it may be more usual in virtual 1-1s because it’s so easy to do, so your boss could just be defaulting to recording.

      But it also sounds like this might not be the best job for you; you feel your ideas are getting dismissed and you’re not super-impressed with the work ethic and what’s happening to your own habits as a result. Is it time for you to look for something better?

      1. Work-life Engineer*

        Yeah it probably is…but I had to jump ship from a really toxic job prior to this one so I’m a bit worried what a new employer will think to see me having only worked here for a couple months. I’m still getting LI messages for recruiters so maybe it doesn’t matter. Thanks for your feedback-I think you hit the nail on the head. I just need to find another job.

    2. Rainy days*

      If you know it’s being recorded, then it’s almost definitely legal. Most recording laws are around recording without consent. But I do think it’s weird. Are you comfortable asking what he plans to use the recording for? (In a tone that doesn’t imply there’s anything suspicious going on, of course). You might find something inocuous, like that for record keeping he uses software to transcribe the meeting, which would still be weird but not…so so weird?

      1. Work-life Engineer*

        Well he doesnt tell me he’recording them, I just see the little bottun flashing on the screen. But yeah I can ask about it.. He is a new manager and I dont think I’m gonna get much mentorship and career development from him anyways so it probably is best to move on. Thanks for your input, at least I’m not crazy for thinking this is weird.

        1. ..Kat..*

          In the USA, some states are one party consent (meaning if one person is okay with recording the conversation it is legal). But, most states are two party consent (meaning both parties have to consent to being recorded for it to be legal). The fact that your boss is recording you without telling you is hinky.

          The other things you mention tell me that your boss doesn’t respect/value you. So please start looking for another job.

  151. Newbie*

    I’m seeking advice on starting off on the right foot at a new job. It’s a huge jump in title, compensation, responsibility and industry. Also seeking advice on quelling the anxiety over these big changes.

    It’s a much more “corporate” environment than I’ve ever worked in. I read so much online about The Corporate World, but don’t know what that means in practice or how it differs from other work environments. I am a young(ish) woman–should I expect the struggles I hear about all the time? How does one make sure they’re doing their new job right? How does one excel? How does one dress!? The industry is also completely new for me.

    I am confident in my skills and the team seems wonderful but there is always the subtle but nagging unknown and the “hmm will I be fired? will this not work out?” I have been working in professional contract positions for awhile (not by choice, of course, but hey, gig economy!) so this is the culmination of a years-long search for a full time job, which I’m sure this adds to my anxiety and perceived pressure.

    Thank you!

    2. HB*

      I don’t have any specific advice but I also just started a new job after leaving one I loved, so I do have some anxiety. My main thing has been to kind of embrace it – just to fully understand that I will feel very in over my head, nervous, and uncertain about things for a long time before I feel like I know what I’m doing. All jobs have adjustment periods and most of us don’t feel confident until we’ve been there at least six months to a year. So even if you go into things and aren’t feeling great at first, just know that is fine and you will master it eventually!

  152. Charlie*

    Is it a good idea to indicate on one’s resume that you were hired based on your work / reputation / a referral vs an interview process? My girlfriend was directly recruited into her last three positions – meaning that instead of going through a formal application-and-interview process, the hiring manager reached out to her based on a referral or past work she’d done for them or a close colleague; she had a conversation with the hiring manager; and they offered her the job. Is that something to put on one’s resume and if so what’s the best way to word this?

    1. Sneaky Ninja for this one*

      I would find that a little odd if I saw that on a resume. I wouldn’t toss it in the trash or anything, but it would be strange. I don’t care how you got your previous job as long as you were good at it and you’ll be good at what I need you to do.

    2. fposte*

      Bad idea. It’s not that special or universally meaningful, and it doesn’t belong on a resume. Maaaybe mention it in an interview if it can get tied to something more quantifiable for the new employer–“I was so fast at picking up Lego blocks that when they had a full time position open up they hired me”–but make the emphasis on the capability and not the hiring process.

    3. AvonLady Barksdale*

      I wouldn’t put that on a resume or even in a cover letter; it’s common enough, especially in certain industries (mine, for example) that calling it out would seem really weird. For a resume, what you accomplished in the job is way more important than how you got it in the first place.

    4. Rusty Shackelford*

      Yeah, no. It could come up in conversation (“Why did you leave X job?” “Well, I wasn’t even looking, but Y job called and made an offer I couldn’t refuse”), but it would be weird to bring it up.

  153. PhyllisB*

    I don’t know how many of you read Reader’s Digest, but the March 2019 issue has an article titled The Funniest Confessions From Bosses, Coworkers, and Clueless Applicants that had me in stitches. I’m not going to quote the whole article, but one that had me rolling was under the sub-heading Dumb Applicants. Objective statement on a resume: “To secure a position as a front office.” The reason this amused me so is because when my youngest daughter was young, she stated that when she grew up, she wanted to be a bathroom(!!) Of course, she was only two years old at the time.

      1. PhyllisB*

        ATX, I don’t for sure how to post a link, but perhaps if you go to Reader’s Digest.com they may have one. It was in the March 2019 issue. I have a houseful of company now so don’t have time to dig right now, but will try to research this week and report back next Friday. It’s hilarious!!

    2. Eleanor Shellstrop*

      LOL this is amazing. Made me laugh as I am sitting at reception trying to be a “front office.”

      1. PhyllisB*

        And I’m sure you’re a good one. Little B never achieved her desire to be a bathroom.

  154. LizB*

    I am really in the thick of it right now with a staff I manage who I’m trying to manage out (unless she shapes up amazingly quickly). We had a coaching conversation to re-set expectations, we did a verbal warning, but she’s very much taking the attitude of “I have to be better for X weeks until the [shift lead she doesn’t get along with] no longer works on my shift, and then I can do what I want.” Like, she actually said exactly that to a different shift lead, who promptly told me about it. This is 99.9% likely to end in firing/quitting unless she has a miraculous attitude adjustment.

    I’m trying to get permission to have a blunt conversation along the lines of, “This is what I need you to do, every shift, as long as you have this job. From what I’ve observed, it seems like you don’t want to do what you need to do in order to meet those expectations. I need you to think seriously about whether this job is still a good fit for you.” Hopefully HR will be okay with me laying it out like that, because boy am I tired of this person’s nonsense.

      1. fposte*

        In some workplaces, you’d need HR buy-in to have a conversation about possible firing.

      2. LizB*

        Just to cover my butt, yeah. They make have softer language they want me to use. It’s pretty difficult to fire someone at my company, there’s a whole process to go through, and I haven’t had to do it before. This employee is also long-tenured and very beloved by some customers, so I’m being extra careful.

        1. WellRed*

          Got it! Although, I think if HR (generally speaking, not yours specifically) had to work with some of these problem employees, they’d be singing a different tune.

  155. Workfromhome*

    Does anyone have any advice about getting a remote job? My partner (currently works in business banking) absolutely hates working in an office and constantly being around other people all day and hates commuting. He would really like a position that he could work from home if not all the time, then at least several days per week.

    I’m a little bit at a loss for how to help him look because it seems that a lot of online posting for remote jobs are scams/cold calling sales jobs/MLM. If anyone has some tips for how to either search for jobs that are remote or would allow working from home, or what types of jobs/industries would have that type of work. Thanks!

    1. ATX Language Learner*

      Dell hires a lot of remote employees. There are also lists you can find via google search of top companies that hire remote. There isn’t really a set industry that does this, it really depends on the company but of course more modern tech companies have a more flexible policy and finance is strict (at least from what I’ve seen). You can also search glassdoor for jobs that are remote/work from home.

    2. cmcinnyc*

      He should be looking, not you. And he should be asking, not you. I have been down the road of helping a partner or a friend look for work enough times to… not do it anymore. I will always keep an eye open, an ear to the ground, or furnish a reference if appropriate, but do the work of figuring out what types of jobs/industries? Don’t do it.

    3. Work-life Engineer*

      Go to weworkremote.com or google “remote jobs $yourdesiredjobtitle”. But ultimately this is your partner’s battle. It’s very kind of you to help him, but he needs to put in the legwork to improve things himself. He might be complaining to you to blow off steam, not because he wants you to fix the problem. Just my two cents though, and I could be wrong. Good luck and hope things improve soon!

    4. NoLongerYoungButLotsWiser*

      key points.
      1) how to find the non-advertised
      2) you may not want 100% WFH job. I’ve done better in my career by pushing myself to adapt to getting along with others (thanks also to AAM).

      1) Not advertised…
      So, I work for one of the companies “firmly” in the top 100 best places to work. Lots of “work life balance” discussion and it is true. We are also in a very high COL area. Those two factors mean that they encourage you to work from home. Even with that, though, jobs are not ad advertised as remote. Some are, some are not – it varies by role.
      2) 100% WFH may not be the best for personal growth.
      And, just my experience – I have a LOT more traction and street credibility in my career because I have worked from the office in the past, and built the personal relationships. I know who does (or did) what role, and remember our last thoughtful conversation, how they are doing, what their team is working on…etc.
      I still come into the office one to two days a week (Staff meeting, and the middle of the week). I’m more productive on reports and cranking out power points in the quiet at home, but … I have 15 years now of saying “hi” in our big central kitchen to the IT team leads, the architects, and the admins (I’m an equal opportunity networker). They remember me when I sent them an IM. I get answers faster on my emails. I can pick up the phone and call the guy (who now works remote too) that I first had some training from.
      I will let others comment on the rest. Just understand that sometimes, depending upon your need for a career trajectory, being there to have the verbal and body language cues, to make yourself stretch and grow in your people skills, to volunteer to help on projects to learn new skills and meet new people… it has an enormous value. (I’ve doubled my salary in the 15 years. Maybe that’s not great by some standards, but given where I started (stagnant for the previous 10), I am soaring and more content because I do love to learn.
      YMMV.

    5. LNLN*

      United Healthcare has a large percentage of their employees working from home. They advertise all sorts of jobs on their website.

  156. Sarah*

    I’ve just applied for a job (a senior, but not top management, role in a nonprofit) and have been given a first round interview. The job ad includes the dates of the second and final round interviews and says “Please indicate as soon as possible if you cannot make any of the above times.”

    I already know that I can only make one of the dates of the second round and I can’t make the date of the final round interview, due to work commitments that I can’t change. E.g. the final round interview is on the first day of our annual global all-staff meeting, and I have to be there – if it came down to it, I’d need to give up the interview process rather than miss this.

    When should I tell them? They want people to tell them ASAP and I get that, but I have to admit that I’m worried this will be a mark against me. I really want this job. What should I do?

    1. fposte*

      I don’t see a lot of choice here, and the sooner you let them know the better chance they’ll have of finding a rescheduling possibility. So just a quick “Thanks for letting me know the proposed dates. I can make May 31st of the second round dates but unfortunately am completely booked on June 5th; I’m in fact booked from the 5th-7th, but I’d be free again on the 8th or prior to that on the 4th. I hope we can find a scheduling alternative, as I’m still very interested in this position.”

      1. Sarah*

        Thanks so much and good point re giving them a chance of finding a new possibility – I did as you suggested (offering alternative dates), fingers crossed. I didn’t close with the last sentence though as I haven’t even gone through the first round interview and the final round is still several weeks away, so I was concerned that might be overreaching a little.

        I also (after posting this question) saw these relevant AAM posts from last year, for any future browsers of this post who could use some additional perspective:

        https://www.askamanager.org/2018/09/does-it-look-bad-to-be-unavailable-on-one-of-the-dates-an-employer-suggests-for-an-interview.html

        https://www.askamanager.org/2018/07/how-much-do-i-need-to-alter-my-own-schedule-for-a-job-interview.html

    2. Meißner Porcellain Teapot*

      Definitely do tell them asap. One of two things will happen:

      1) Company will go “gahh, look at this snowflake requesting a different schedule *tosses résumé*”, in which case you dodged a bullet, because you do not want to work for someone who offers you to do The Thing and then frowns when you make use of The Thing. Trust me. You don’t.

      2) Company will go “thank you for getting in touch with us so quickly–would alternative dates X and Y work for you?”

      Seriously, in the absence of evidence to the contrary*, it is best to take employers at their word for how they want the application process to go down (if they say “please send us only a CV, no cover letter”, don’t send the cover letter; if they say “please apply through the online form”, don’t send it via direct email; if they say “tell us if these dates don’t work”, tell them if the dates don’t work for you). You do not want one of the first impressions they have of you to be “person who screams “fire!” as the sprinklers go off”. You want it to be “person saying “hey, I think this is going to be a problem” when they see faulty, sparking wiring”.

      *i.e. if you know somebody who works/worked there and who can confirm that option 1) is what’s gonna happen because it’s happened, or if you personally know the HR rep/hiring manager who’s gonna handle this application and you know they are notoriously lazy)

      1. Sarah*

        Thanks so much – good point re demonstrating that you’ll speak up early if there’s an issue!

        I also (after posting this question) saw these relevant AAM posts from last year, for any future browsers of this post who could use some additional perspective – links in reply to fposte’s comment just above.

  157. moneypenny*

    I recently interviewed with two companies, A and B.

    A finally got back to me with an offer that is competitive with what B says is coming. B’s timeline is bound by corporate red tape but they definitely want me, though not for another two weeks (they’ve been very transparent and clear about wanting me, they just have to jump through hoops before they can formally extend the offer. I know the rate and benefits already). A made the offer today and says they need an answer ASAP. I asked for a week, they begrudgingly gave it to me even though I know (they don’t) that I won’t have B’s in hand by that point. The thing is, it’s taken A two weeks to get this to me after my first interview a month ago and now they’re insisting on a rush.

    I’m feeling nervous to turn A down because it’s a bird in the hand, but the only way B will not come through is if the business decides they don’t need the role filled. My would-be boss at B and the HR rep have both told me that’s highly unlikely that could happen, but come next Friday I’ll likely have to turn A down and trust B is a sure thing. I’m feeling nervous about it all.

    Is A’s pushy behavior here something to consider a red flag?

    1. fposte*

      I don’t think the duration for an offer is unusual or even the hope that the candidate will say a fast yes. But having to fight for a week to consider and having them clearly begrudge it isn’t great. That doesn’t necessarily mean anything about the job itself–it could just be a reflection on the hiring practice, which isn’t always a business’s strong suit. Sorry, I know it would probably be easier if I could say “OMG, they’re terrible! For sure wait for B!” But this isn’t enough to say that all on its own.

      I don’t know the rest of your current situation, but remember there are also jobs C through Z out there. Even if B falls through after you’ve turned down A, you’d quite likely end up with one of those and be okay.

      1. moneypenny*

        B is a dream job for a lot of reasons, it’s worth waiting for and the gamble doesn’t really feel like a huge one (but of course, it is, because anything can happen until I finish my first day). A is not a dream job, the shorter commute and good pay are the best selling points. They are both contenders in their own ways, but B could see me through the rest of my career or at least a long portion of it whereas A is likely a stopover on the way to something better somewhere else.

    2. Mediamaven*

      Absolutely not. They’ve given you a week. Hiring is so challenging and they want to know you aren’t fishing for a better offer. The whole process is a gamble for both sides.

    3. Goose Lavel*

      Take the job from company A and don’t look back. Even though Company B says they want you, it doesn’t mean that something won’t come up and you’ll find yourself without any job offers.

    4. LQ*

      I think a week is a long time to give someone to decide.

      They are looking at their second choice going, if you turn them down they don’t want to loose out on their B candidate to someone else because you took a week to say no. A couple days is really normal to ask for but asking for a week feels like a lot so I’m not surprised at that.

      But are you always going to lust after Job B because you think it’s a magic job? (this is very much about your personality I think as far as do you long for what might have been…) In which case…turn down A and go all in on B.

      (I’m totally a go for A kind of person, I could never handle trusting that B would come through, because that’s my personality, but some people are entirely hold out for B people or they’ll never let it go, so definitely think about your take on things.)

    5. Flyleaf*

      Depending on your own ethical code and whether you are willing to burn a bridge, you could accept job A, with a start date 2 to 4 weeks out, and then if job B makes an offer in that time you could contact A and withdraw your acceptance.

  158. dealing with dragons*

    Kinda looking for general advice on my name? My legal name is the equivalent of Patty, not Patricia. I’m a female in the tech world and I wonder if it would ever be useful to go by Elizabeth? I like my name as is but it seems like it’s going to get weird going by Patty as I start to move forward into more Adult(tm) jobs.

    Also if I had a dime for every time I got “is that your legal name” lol

    1. fposte*

      I don’t think it’s worth using a name that isn’t yours over if you like your name. You could also consider being Pat instead of Patty or P J instead of Patty Jane, but I don’t think any of it would gain enough to be worth discommoding yourself over it.

    2. Mike the Female*

      My parents named me Mike. I’m a woman. I get asked many questions: “are you transitioning?” and “what’s that short for?”

      …my name is Mike. I like it. Leave me alone about it, plz.

      1. dealing with dragons*

        have you seen the new star trek? the lead is a woman named michael!

        1. valentine*

          She’s Michaela.

          Stick with Patty. Any greater respect you receive as Patricia isn’t proper, and you may as well find out sooner.

    3. Temperance*

      My boss has a legal name like yours, and it hasn’t impacted anything other than minor annoyance at having to explain “no, I’m not Patricia, just Patty”.

      1. dealing with dragons*

        for me it’s less annoyance and needing to be taken seriously. I’m about to move into a sector that is well known for the “ole boys club” or whatever, and I already have a baby face. My new job is going to involve a lot of saying no to stakeholders :\

        1. fposte*

          I don’t think a long female name is going to give you much advantage over a short female name, though.

          1. dealing with dragons*

            It feels like professionally going by something like Mikey, though, instead of using Mike or Michael

    4. dealing with dragons*

      oh whoops realized I forgot I switched from Betsy as the example to Elizabeth. Elizabeth is probably more apt anyway as some people call me Lizzie equivalent instead of Betsy.

      1. Auntie Social*

        What about a name that doesn’t give way to nicknames well, Emily or Amanda?

    5. Policy wonk*

      I have a friend in your situation. Legal name is Kathy, started using Katherine. No one questioned it. Another friend, David, started using his middle name because there were two other Davids in the office. So he is now D. Jonathan. If you like your middle name, that might be an option.

      1. TT&E*

        Similar situation – I go by the shorter nickname without the ‘y’ – when I do use the full name on stuff I try to include my middle initial.

  159. swimmergurl7*

    I work in marketing for a health system and am thinking about getting a master of healthcare administration, so I would qualify for higher paying jobs outside of the marketing department. How can I sell this idea to our HR department to qualify for tuition reimbursement?

    1. LaDeeDa*

      Most companies have a tuition reimbursement policy, usually, the requirements are it is an accredited university, and that the new degree is one that can be leveraged at the company- not necessarily in your current role or department. So I would start by asking them what the tuition reimbursement policy is.

      FYI- they usually make you sign an agreement that you will stay with the company or a certain number of years after receiving your degree or you have to pay it back.

    2. Sneaky Ninja for this one*

      I recently got that degree! My employer has a cap on what they will pay by the year, and it’s reimbursement per class. I didn’t use their reimbursement for my MS, but I did for my BA. I didn’t for my MS, because I don’t know how long I’m going to stick around and don’t want to have to pay parts of it back.

      But anyway, it depended on the class. Healthcare related and they’d pay for it, I just had to say why that class was relevant to my work. The required religion classes and philosophy classes (it was a Catholic school) they wouldn’t pay for because it’s not related to my work. So I didn’t even ask. If I decided I wanted to get a degree in Llama Hair Weaving, they probably wouldn’t have paid anything.

      I also had to pay first, pass the class, and then get reimbursed.

      So, it’s a Know Your Employer’s Policy thing.

    3. Zephy*

      This sounds like a question for either your own supervisor or the HR department. Consult whatever employee benefits handbook exists, see what it says about tuition reimbursement.

    4. Red Reader the Adulting Fairy*

      my health system does tuition reimbursement under the following circumstances:
      1) the degree you’re pursuing is healthcare related somehow, either clinically or administratively (which does, for us, include a MHA) – I did an MBA through mine, and am now working on a bachelor’s of HIM.
      2) they only reimburse a max of $3600 per calendar year for graduate programs and $3000 per year for undergrad, with a separate lifetime cap (I forget how much, but I think it’s something like 3 years worth of the max for grad and 4 years worth for undergrad?) for each. (the lifetime cap is new.)
      3) You pay for the tuition up front and get reimbursed on submission of a … is it still a “report card” in college? Anyway, you have to submit grades within 30 days of the end of the term and you only get reimbursed if you have B- or better, for letter grades, or obviously pass for pass/fail courses.
      4) you have to be in, and remain in, good standing, no disciplinary actions, etc, and get manager approval before you start the program.

  160. Kendra*

    Goldilocks and the Three Books

    A patron walks into our library looking for a copy of a particular classic book (let’s pretend it was Old Yeller). One of my staff finds it for him; our primary copy is hardbound, but only the size of a standard paperback (6-7″ tall), and he looks at it for a minute, then asks if we have any copies with bigger print. As it happens, we have Old Yeller in our Large Print section, so the staff member takes him over there to show it to him. He says, and I quote, “No, I don’t want it in Large Print; that ruins it.” My staff member boggles at that one for a moment, but then gamely shows him our last copy, a children’s classics version (these are abridged editions of classical literature, with easier word choices for the kiddos to read on their own; they’re great for exposing uncertain readers to some really great books, but they’re not the full or original text, so most adults don’t want them), which he happily checks out because it has the right size print.

    I then spend a few minutes talking my poor staff member down off the ledge before he’s able to return to the desk and face the next person (I’m honestly surprised I didn’t have to give the poor guy a paper bag to breathe into).

    (To be clear, we’re absolutely not mocking this gentleman’s vision issues with tiny print; both of us also have poor vision. We’re just beside ourselves that the version of the book created specifically for that exact issue – and which the library paid extra for; Large Print editions are usually more expensive – would somehow “ruin” it for him, but taking out half of the words doesn’t.)

    1. fposte*

      Whereas I totally get this. Font and font size matter *hugely* to how I experience a book, and that’s true of a lot of people, which is why it’s a key part of book design. Then there are the psychological aspects: at the other end of the age spectrum, it’s an issue in kids’ books to make a book look appealing to a struggling reader without making it look dumbed down; dude maybe didn’t want to have “You can only read Big Print!” screaming at him every time he turns the page.

      I think this is a case where the library has a helpful accommodation, but that doesn’t mean it’s the right accommodation for everybody. You all did find a patron something that suited him, and that’s the goal.

      1. valentine*

        Did the patron know the large-print book is complete and the perfect-size-font book is abridged? It may not matter, but perhaps they think the former is abridged. I can’t read large print because it’s too large and the margins are nearly nonexistent. It’s overwhelming and relentless. I read this site comfortably at 133%.

        I don’t see how y’all’s responses aren’t inappropriate. The patron needs what they need. I hope your library otherwise abides by “Every patron their item”.

    2. Delta Delta*

      I’ll tell you what – I checked out a Large Print version of a popular book once because it was the only copy they had in. I was in my 20s. I settled down to read it one rainy afternoon and it was GLORIOUS. 12/10 would read a Large Print book again.

      1. WellRed*

        And yet, I checked out a large print by mistake and just couldnt deal. Like fposte says. It’s about the experience.

        1. Mimi Me*

          Yes. The first few times I checked out the large print books I found it unsettling. I felt like the words were screaming at me off the page. I’m hooked now, but it took me quite a few books before the screaming quieted.

        2. Rusty Shackelford*

          And you have to turn the page so often! I’d use a magnifying glass before I’d attempt to read a large-print book.

      2. LCL*

        Yes, the one time I found a large print copy of something and read it, I was stoked. I thought, ‘this is great, why aren’t all books printed like this, maybe we could get a law passed,’ etc. Instead I make do with many pairs of reading glasses.

    3. Reba*

      I mean, I get that this is absurd, but I don’t get why your staff member is upset? I mean, think, you had an interaction where neither side could understand the other… and yet the patron still ended up with something they are happy with! A win!

    4. E*

      And this is why I kind of like electronic readers so I can change the font size to “look” right to me. If I can’t quickly find the paper version with the right size font ;)

    5. The Man, Becky Lynch*

      I have to wonder if perhaps he had never had a book he wanted to read actually in the large-print section. So this time when it was a choice, he looked at it and was all “Oh dear…nope nope nope.”

      I know it’s frustrating in customer service positions when someone is seemingly indecisive or makes you pull a bunch of things only to then choose the first one they asked for or something similar but yeah, that’s part of working with the general population!

    6. Koala dreams*

      That makes perfect sense to me. It’s hard to read a book with too small print, and hard to read a book with too big print. What use is a the non-abridged book if you aren’t able to enjoy reading it because of print size?

  161. Entry Level Marcus*

    So, as someone who is relatively new to the workforce (graduate college 2 years ago) and is currently job hunting, what is the point of having multiple rounds of in-person interviews from the employer’s perspective? What should I expect in a second round interview? Are there any questions or topics that I should save for a second round (unless the topic comes up in a first round interview)? Is it typical for there to be multiple interview rounds for entry-level jobs?

    I’ve never had more than one in-person interview (I’ve had 3 internships and a 9 month term position), and I’m just trying to get a sense of what to expect.

    1. Entry Level Marcus*

      *I’ve never had more than one round of in-person interviews with a particular employer.

    2. Kendra*

      It varies from place to place, but some of the reasons are to narrow down a very large pool of candidates, or to have different people do the interviews (you might have your first round with HR, just gauging general suitability, and then the second round with the actual hiring manager, who knows more of the specifics of what they’re looking for, but doesn’t have time to interview 15 people). It might also be useful to get a picture of the candidates on more than one day (is this how they usually are, or were they just having a really good/poor day last week?). It can also just be because of scheduling issues on the other side; maybe one of the managers that they really wanted to have sit in on the interviews had to take an emergency trip to Canada during the first round, so now they’re doing one more round with their top five to let that person meet them.

    3. LaDeeDa*

      The first interview is usually to make sure you have the skills to do the job and to start to get a feel for if you will be a good fit for the team/culture. Usually, the second interview will include more people– often it will include people you will be working closely with, they are wanting to make sure you are a right fit for the team. If the position is reporting into a lower level supervisor or manager, often their boss will want to be included in interviewing final candidates, because they will have more experience with interviewing and they are wanting to give their opinion on the final pick.

      My favorite questions:
      Tell me about your management style- how do you like to receive updates? How do you like to communicate information?
      What can you tell me about the team?
      What would make someone a good fit for the team?
      What would you say will be the biggest challenge for the person in this role?
      What would be the first/biggest priority?

      Good luck!

    4. RandomU...*

      There are different reasons for this, so I’ll share my experiences.

      Round 1: Phone screen with internal recruiter. This will be for general information, what you are currently doing, why you want to leave, etc.
      -At this point the phone notes and resume are passed to me
      Round 2: Phone interview with me, the hiring manager, I want to get a good sense if you fit the requirements for the job and get a surface level evaluation if you would be a good fit for the job.
      -All but 2-3 people are going to be passed on at this point
      Round 3: Extended team interviews. Here’s where you are going to talk to 2-3 other people, myself, and HR. Here’s where you are really going to be evaluated on your skills and fit.
      -After this round the interview team is pulled together to evaluate and pick the candidate.

    5. londonedit*

      In my industry and in the UK in my experience, it’s not common to have a phone interview first (unless the job is through a recruiter; then you might have an informal phone interview with the recruiter before they agree to submit your application). So the first step is usually an in-person first interview. That will usually be with the person who would be your direct line manager, plus possibly someone from HR or another member of the department you’d be working with. They’ll run through your CV and experience with you and ask all the usual competency-based questions (‘Tell me about a time when you had to deal with a difficult situation’ etc). Then a smaller number of people will be selected to go forward to a second interview – usually this is with the same person who would be your line manager, plus someone higher up like the head of the department or in a smaller company maybe the owner or director. They’ll ask some of the same questions, but it’s mainly so the higher-up manager can meet the candidates and ask any questions they might have. It’s also an opportunity to expand on anything from the first interview that might have raised a slight flag, or that the hiring managers want to explore in more detail. Often at a second interview, as you’ll be one of the top few candidates, you might also get a tour of the department or meet some of the other people you might be working with.

      It can be worth asking what form the second interview will take – some are more informal than the first interview, literally just a ‘the head of the department wants to meet you for a chat’ and some will be more formal than the first interview because the CEO likes to grill people.

  162. Anon4this*

    Basics: Our water treatment plant process analyst recently retired. He was very knowledgeable with an analytical mind and process for identifying and solving problems and impending problems. He’s been replaced with someone who has long years experience operating the plant, but she lacks those (what I consider necessary) traits. She tends to shoot from the hip and has a “just try this and see if it works” way of addressing things. She manages no one and I manage a small technical staff; we report to the same person.

    We have just identified a trend in one parameter that could result in violating federal limits if it continues. I’m trying to dig into our years’ of data to identify possible sources and she … isn’t; I’m not sure what she has in mind, but it seems to involve my staff doing lots of work that in my mind won’t produce anything useful. She’s a decent operator, but has trouble wrapping her mind around how to do things like this effectively.

    Personally, I think they chose the wrong person for this position and I’ll do what I can to make her successful, mostly because if we violate, about half the blame will fall on my group. Our manager is a person manager, and lacks much of the technical knowledge, so it’s difficult for him to know what to do. In the meantime, I’m documenting things out the wazoo so I can prove that my group did what we needed to do and it’s not us who caused the violation, should it happen. But I can’t make decisions on how to operate the plant, that’s her job and I don’t have the knowledge (and know I don’t) to make those decisions.

    Not any real advice requests, just venting; my spouse is tired of hearing about it. :)

    1. Mazzy*

      We work with the same type of people so I wanted to comment. Yeah, you’re not going to teach her how to think. You are going to have to document issues that your team takes on that the retiring guy used to do and eventually use it as ammo to expand your team and/or get your team raises.

  163. Bunny Girl*

    I just started my internship, plus I work full time, and I have three more weeks of a really difficult class next, then I start a class that goes through the summer but should be a lot less of a stressor. This is going to be a very, very long few months. But the good news is I really, really love what I’m doing for my internship. My full time job – not so much.

  164. Eleanor Shellstrop*

    Thank you to everyone last week who weighed in on whether I should ask my current boss for a reference! I ended up deciding not to, and instead asked the former HR woman from my office who retired earlier this year. She hired me for my current job, and was happy to do it.

    This past week has been very exciting, I applied to a job I’m really excited for last weekend, got an interview request Monday morning, had a nearly two-hour interview on Wednesday where I met the entire office, and now they are calling my references!! It’s been a blur! I’m tentatively very hopeful, although I’m trying to be realistic, but all signs are pointing to a good outcome here :)
    I’ve been very interested in this company for a long time and the job sounds like it was made for me. It would be a pay cut but there are some VERY generous perks. I’d be moving from a corporate law firm to the adventure travel industry, so it would be a big change and one I’m very ready for.

    1. Eleanor Shellstrop*

      UPDATE!!! I GOT THE JOB!!!!!!!!! SO EXCITED!!
      And very glad that I read up on Alison’s interview tips – thank you!!! :)

  165. WKRP*

    My coworker goes by a nickname, think Dany in lieu of Danaerys. Dany calls everyone by their full name. Dany calls everyone by their full name even after she hears others call a person by their nickname. She’ll continue to call Betsy, Elizabeth — even after I’ve called her Betsy, emailed her (with Dany cc’ed) as Betsy, and never every use the name Elizabeth.

    It’s super odd. Because Dany goes by Dany professionally, but her email is Danaerys, so I find it extremely odd that she wouldn’t take the cue. I had one person ask me why she persisted in using their formal name and I had to mention to Dany that no one uses that name and she should call her by her nickname.

    Dany is not always the sharpest tool in the box, decent enough at some things. But I find this behavior really odd.

    1. Detective Amy Santiago*

      Have any of these people directly said to Dany “Please, call me Betsy”?

      1. RandomU...*

        This was my question to. I have a name that is often shortened, and I hate the short version.

        I introduce myself with the name I prefer and then will cheerily correct people who shorten it. I will not so cheerily correct them if they do it again. The 3rd time it’s “Elizabeth please” said in a not pleasant tone.

        If I hear it a 4th time I just don’t respond.

        1. Scarlet Magnolias*

          I have a name that is also often shortened and I also hate the short version. I had one co-worker who persisted in abbreviating it (think Les as opposed to Lesley). I corrected him to no avail. His name was Robert so I started calling him Bobby. When he said “It’s Robert, not Bobby” I responded with “It’s Lesley, not Les”. He finally got the hint. Only my brother gets away with using the abbreviation.

      2. WKRP*

        I honestly couldn’t say whether they’ve asked her to point blank to use their nickname. But, the thing is that she’s definitely heard us all call these people by their nicknames in multiple formats. I understand that one shouldn’t assume, but now I feel the onus is on me to correct her, since she’s not taking cues from me or those she works with.

    2. Zephy*

      Cultural thing, maybe? I remember a discussion on here(? maybe? either here or Captain Awkward) a while back. Had to do with an employee from another culture that persisted in calling people Mr. Snape or Ms. McGonagall even after being told that they preferred Severus or Minerva, because in the employee’s culture of origin, addressing someone with a formal title (even against their stated wishes) was more respectful than using their (preferred) first names.

      1. WKRP*

        Dany’s from Maryland, so it’s not a cultural thing, at least not in terms of where she’s from. Perhaps she was taught to always use full names at another job. I couldn’t say. But, it’s out of place here.

    3. LizB*

      Very odd, yeah. I’m agreeing with your assessment of not-the-sharpest-tool-in-the-box. The solution here, though, is for Betsy and others to directly say, “I actually go by Betsy, please don’t call me Elizabeth.” In an ideal world they shouldn’t have to, but… well, they do.

    4. Lily Rowan*

      On the flipside, I worked with a Matt who always introduced himself as Matthew, so I finally asked if that’s what he preferred (even though I never heard anyone call him that!) and the answer was no, he didn’t. He just gave his full name in introductions.

  166. Nylah*

    TL;DR: I’m conflicted on leaving my current job because I love the work culture but it could hinder my development and money-making opportunities. Which is the most important: Work Culture, Development, or Pay?

    Full story: I gained this job right after Grad School, it was a career change and my first time in this role (and my first white-collar job). Compared to the place I left, this job is a dream. We are small but growing, everyone is nice and treated like adults, and there’s beer in the fridge! My commute is 15 minutes each way, I really like my boss, and enjoy the flexibility to come and go within reason. I’m coming up on my 3-year mark and according to certain advice, I should look to make moves to another company to get a promotion and raise. I just earned a certification that is an asset in my field and it helped me get a promotion. But, I’m starting to feel stunted/overlooked in my current role. After the promotion, I get more projects and responsibilities but I’m far behind where I should be at this stage. My boss mentioned making a development plan for me that never came to be. My managers are the VP and Director of Teapots and I’m the Senior Specialist of teapots. I know they are busy but my 1:1s keep getting canceled, so I’m out of the loop a lot. To remedy it, I’ve started giving email status updates and request for information and tasks. It hasn’t helped that much. At this point I don’t know how much to push on these things.

    If you look just at the money aspect: I make enough now that I am no longer stressed about money. I wouldn’t be so concerned if it was for my $100k student loan debt. I make $80k + 4% annual raises + 10% bonus + stock options. There’s the potential to make $120k + bonus in a new role. I’m the least senior person on my 5-person team and I’m skeptical that I would get a 50% raise to do essentially what I do now (plus a little more of course).

    The questions: Which is the most important: Work Culture, Development, or Pay? Do I sacrifice a good thing for more money? Should I wait to be promoted again? If so, how long is a reasonable wait period?

    1. RandomU...*

      I don’t think any of us here can answer that for you. Because it’s going to be different for each person.

      Early in my career, development trumped culture, location, and pay
      Mid career; I am valuing pay and flexibility
      I can very easily see work culture/interest in the job functions as being most important.

      I think each stage sort of sets up the next stage. For instance, in my early career I was willing and able to sacrifice to set me on the path I wanted. This included, not desirable jobs/assignments, heavy travel, relocation, etc. I found that I was able to translate that development into higher pay and flexibility now in my mid career.

      1. Nylah*

        This makes a lot of sense so thank you. Essentially you have to be willing to pay your dues and if I keep that in mind it makes potentially leaving more palatable.

    2. Havarti*

      You’ve been there almost 3 years. You came from a different job so this place may have seemed like paradise but the cracks are starting to show in the facade. Your 1:1s are getting canceled. Your boss has yet to come through with the development plan. I really feel like you need to pin your boss down and have a talk about where you want to go within the company and what exactly the higher ups are looking to get from you. Beer in the fridge or no, right now they’re not doing your future self any favors.

      But you asked what’s more important: work culture, development, or pay. The answer is a mix of all 3 in different percentages depending on the individual. Ideally, there would be a good balance between the 3 where you’re fairly compensated for your work while you continue to learn things in an environment full of pleasant, reasonable people.
      Otherwise if we go by the rule of pick two, you can have:
      – Good culture, no development, good pay = stagnating skills (your current scenario)
      – Good culture, good development, bad pay = can’t pay bills but you could gain the skills to jump ship ASAP
      – Bad culture, good development, good pay = maybe rolling in dough but you’re miserable

      More money is not a bad thing but it may translate to more stress. Maybe you can take a higher paying job with the intent of saving as much as you can to build a decent cushion before changing over to something less stressful down the line.

      As for waiting for another promotion, when did you get the more recent one? What’s been the usual timeline for other people in the company in similar positions? How long are you willing to put up with the situation as is if your attempts to talk to the boss don’t work out? Honestly, if your boss is happy to let you stay where you’re at, it’s probably time to start looking elsewhere.

      1. Nylah*

        Thanks for your opinion! I never thought of it as the rule of pick two but that fits the situation perfectly. I know I need to nail down my development with my boss but I keep waiting to bring it up in our 1:1s which isn’t a good plan. The promotion was given in December. As for the timeline between promotions, I’m not sure. About 20 other people received promotions when I did. Also, a director was made VP recently which I would consider a decent change in pay scales. So they’re not stingy about promoting in house. They honestly seemed enthused about developing me at the beginning and paid for the study materials for the certification.

        It’s just their actions aren’t matching their words. If the talk doesn’t go well I would start looking for a new job immediately. But if I’m fed empty promises (which will most likely be the case) I’d be willing to give them 3-6 months to actually see some changes.

    3. Fortitude Jones*

      It really depends on what you value and how much your debt matters to you. I value doing work that’s challenging and interesting, and I also have $100k plus in student loans, so I move on from low paying jobs after I get the experience I need to aim higher. I just finished my second week at a new job where I got a nearly 27% salary increase to do basically the same thing I was doing before, just at a much larger company in a better paying industry (software). I’m now making $70k base with a potential $12k bonus that will be broken into four quarters plus whatever profit sharing increase my team gets based on company performance up to 6% of my base salary – I absolutely made the right decision for me given the factors noted above. My last job wasn’t terrible, but it was bad for me because I wasn’t doing the type of work I wanted to do, my pay was subpar, my benefits were trash (new company has way better, and cheaper, benefits), and I was just bored to tears more often than not. Sure, my boss was nice enough on the outside and my coworkers were cool, but that’s not enough to keep me stimulated or engaged. You have to figure out what motivates you to get up in the morning – the money and challenging work or the collegial work environment.

      1. Nylah*

        Congrats on the new job! Yes I’m bored about 80% of the time to where I’m taking courses online. Something definitely needs to change.

  167. Audra*

    Is it normal for an employee who quits (puts in their two weeks) to be let go early?

    2. CatCat*

      In some industries it is more normal than others. It is a terrible practice unless the employer pays out the notice period.

    3. Bunny Girl*

      It depends on the company. I’ve known places that had a lot of confidential documents who felt it was better if the employees left right away. A place that I worked (law firm) never really let anyone have their two weeks notice because so many people were unhappy when they were leaving that they thought they might try to sabotage the company if they were given any notice and just would ask them to leave that day. Not that it mattered since most people rage quit and just walked out the door.

  168. Zephy*

    I know we have a few people here that work in higher ed, in student-facing positions. I wanted to share a quick story that I’ll be chuckling about for a while.

    Our application process right now doesn’t ask for the student’s DOB or SSN, it’s put in later on in the admissions process. Both of those identifiers are necessary for FAFSA purposes. So, we’ve been contacting accepted students and asking for that information, in an effort to get a jump on the incoming class’s financial aid packages. One student was asked for his “birthday and social,” so he told us his date of birth…and then started listing all his social media account usernames. I heard this secondhand from an admissions counselor and I’m not sure how he kept it together long enough to explain what information we actually needed. Maybe it’s a little mean to laugh at a reasonable misunderstanding, but…gosh, I’m mostly surprised it took this long to happen.

  169. Malina*

    Hey all, happy weekend!

    I’m working in Recruitment at the moment with plans to move into HR some time soon. I’d like to get a certificate that would give my CV a bit more weight but also introduce me to some important HR related matters and practices that I couldn’t have encountered in my work so far.

    Is there a program you would recommend?

    I’m based in Europe, ideally would love to attend something in person, however I’m open to an online course too.

    Thank you!

  170. Haley*

    Hello! I am HR Generalist and I was talking to another HR Generalist the other day about No Calls No Shows. To my surprise we had two different opinions on what a NCNS is. We both agree it’s not calling and not reporting to work but I also considered it a NCNS if you call to say you will be in late and never show up to work. In my thought process we are still expecting you to come to work through some sort of communication and you failed to do so or communicate otherwise. Thoughts?

    1. Zephy*

      I’m inclined to agree with you. If I’m running late, I’ll usually try to give some indication of when I think I’ll get to whatever I’m late for, out of courtesy for whoever is waiting for me. Any further updates to the plan are on me to communicate with the person waiting for me.

    2. DownToOneHand*

      I would agree with you. I would say it’s a NCNS unless
      A) they show up or
      B) they call and say they can’t show up.

    3. LGC*

      That is…weird that your coworker disagrees. You’re absolutely right in that if someone says they’re running late, that implies they’re going to be there (just later than scheduled).

      The only situation I can think of where your coworker would be sort of right is if they say they might be late or out. (Like, they’re a parent and they have a school meeting in the morning, and they’re not sure how long it will take.) In that case, I just preemptively mark them as absent and then change it if they are able to make it in.

      1. Haley*

        Thank you for the comments. That’s how I have always viewed it. She said since there was communication of some kind it wasn’t a NCNS. I even tried looking up in on SHRM.

        Thank y’all again! I felt like I was going nuts.

  171. Mimi Me*

    I work in healthcare and have been dealing with a patient issue all week long. Long story short – the patient has Medicare and there’s a timing rule that the patient isn’t happy about. Today I spoke with the patient to provide an update and was bemused by our conversation. The patient doesn’t like the timing rule and thinks that if they complain loud and long enough I’ll be able to overturn the rule as an exception. I explained that I couldn’t. Patient is now going to my supervisor to complain. And they’re calling Medicare because apparently I don’t know how to do my job. Good luck there!

  172. Kwebbel*

    A bit of a philosophical question perhaps: I work in HR and one of our focuses this past year was better aligning performance with reward. In the past, annual appraisals were always done in January, 2 months before our yearly salary reviews. Our CHRO was keen to transform the process, and asked managers to first make decisions on who to give salary increases and promotions to, and then announce this to them during their performance review. To him this made sense: you tell an employee how you evaluate their performance from the year before, and then you tell them what this means for them in terms of changes to their title, responsibilities and paychecks right after.

    My department wasn’t thrilled with this change, though. They felt that you have to keep these two conversations separate as it places too much focus on the monetary aspects of their performance. They liked things the way they were.

    What do all of you think? Should performance reviews and salary reviews be kept separate, or do they fit together? What do you see as the benefits and drawbacks of each approach?

    1. Reba*

      “the monetary aspects of their performance”… it is a job? money and performance are inherently linked????

      OTOH I could see people feeling like some employee agency was being removed with the salary changes being announced at appraisal time, if previously people had had the sense that the appraisal was more collaborative or that they had input into what was recorded/rated. I could understand feeling like, “if you already determined the performance and raise I’m getting why did we have this meeting.”

      1. Kwebbel*

        Yeah I…kinda see it that way, too (as you said in the first paragraph). I also think there are too many occasions where employees are told in January that their performance was stellar, they think an increase for March is in the bag, and then over those 2 months the manager has reevaluated and doesn’t think one is warranted and now has to give them unexpected news. So if the manager knows what she’s going to do at the time of the meeting, it helps frame the conversation better? But again, I’d love to hear your opinions!

        1. Fortitude Jones*

          That’s precisely why I think performance reviews and salary reviews should come at the same time. If managers already have an idea of what they’re giving people raise wise, why bother separating the two? Just tell employees how they did and whether or not they get a raise/promotion so they don’t have to spend two months wondering.

    2. Rey*

      In what I’ve read (Work Rules by Laszlo Bock), you want to keep raise conversations separate from performance evaluations because people will feel defensive about their evaluations and try to correct/change things in it because they see the very concrete way it is connected to their pay. However, if you do them at separate times of the year, it increases the chances that the employee will really take in the criticism and be prepared to make the necessary changes.

      1. LaDeeDa*

        This is really dependant on how performance is defined- if employees have goals and defined competencies and the company has a clear definition and language around each of the ratings, then it takes a lot of the subjectivity out around it.
        They should be “correcting/changing” their behavior, not their review. And the behavior is clearly defined it is easier for the employee and manager to see why they fall into a certain category.

        Now if they are using raises as a way to stay relevant and competitive in the market place- that is different, and we do that at a different time of year. We do that every other has a separate initiative with compensation, where we look at fair market value, risk of loss, etc.

    3. LaDeeDa*

      OK- so you are saying they are going to pick the people to get raises, and then do their reviews? That doesn’t make sense– they can then say things like “John needs a raise because he has been here 10 yrs and is the most senior. It should be based on performance. Why is someone who gets a Successful getting a raise/bonus but someone who got an Outstanding not getting a raise? Maybe I am not understanding your flow or questions… so I’ll give an example of how most places I have worked do it — and I have been in performance management a long time.
      We have a very defined amount for raises and bonuses for people who fall into each rating.
      So for example, anyone who gets below Successful will only get the standard 2% cost of living increase, and no bonus.
      Successful rating= X% raise (it fluctuates year to year) + 100% of bonus
      Exceeds rating = X% raise (it is usually .5% – 1% higher than the successful rating gets) + 125% of bonus
      Outstanding rating = X% raise (usually 1 – 1.5% aove Successful) + 150% of bonus.

      Our Performance flow goes like this —
      Employee self-review
      Manager review (manager reads employee review, and does their review. employees can’t see the manager review yet, no discussion has happened)
      Calibration with my PM team, HRBP, and department head. Calibration means we validate the rating- we sometimes have to have the manager change their rating bc they haven’t met the requirements for that rating.
      Manager-employee discussion on rating
      Managers have a week if they want to change the rating based on anything they learned in the discussion- which means it has to come back to my team, HRBP and their department head
      If everything is fine, it is signed off on by manager and employee.
      Because we have a set monetary range, and we announce the raise percentages at the town hall prior to the performance review period, people know exactly what their raise will be and their bonus will be.

      This keeps it fairer and helps it be more objective and less subjective.

      I apologize if I misunderstood your question.

      1. anonforobviousreasons*

        Thanks for your reply, and your experience from the field! Very insightful.

        One can always phrase things more clearly, myself included, front row center. Indeed, the way you describe it is generally how it would go under thr new system: managers pick who to give raises to, in accordance with a matrix evaluation of their performance and potential. There is, however, room for special consideration for those who like in your example haven’t received raises in several years or are so far below the salaries of the rest of their team thdt something needs to be done. Performance reviews are done with that knowledge in mind, and the fact that a person will get an increase at the end of the discussion is supposed to help managers frame how they phrase their review, but not cause them to tailor the review to fit the news. Does it work in reality? Not perfectly, I don’t think. I’m sure some managers do just use the raise to structure their review, or grasp for negatives when they’re not giving one. And in sure others just give all of their colleagues great reviews and blame HR for their inability to give not-great performers raises of 30% (as happened exactly twice last year).

        1. LaDeeDa*

          To work as well as possible some things have to be in place, clearly defined ratings with key behavioral indicators, showing a progression between each rating. I am also a big believer that competencies are needed in addition to general goals. Because just meeting goal isn’t enough, we want to see HOW someone reached their goal. And finally manager performance training, which also includes unconscious bias training.
          Managers will always try to manipulate it, to give their “favorites” the biggest raises and bonuses. but the more definition you put around exactly what they are rating, the less subjective it becomes.

          1. Kwebbel*

            Totally agree – thanks for even more insights! Indeed, unconscious bias is a real thing and getting reviews as robust as possible is really key.

      2. Rusty Shackelford*

        It sounds like they’re going to decide who has earned a raise, and then *tell* that person during their performance review. It doesn’t mean they’re filling out the review after deciding who gets a raise, just that it will be discussed when they sit down with that person.

    4. LNLN*

      My last employer very much emphasized that theirs was a “pay for performance” company. Employees submitted their self-evaluations (based on specific job metrics and on company-wide values). Supervisors then completed their evaluations of employees and, based on evaluation results, raises were determined. Higher-performing employees received higher raises. It seems backwards to me to say who should get a raise and then try to justify that raise by creating an evaluation. If pay corrections were needed to reflect demand for work skills or discrepancy between pay for different genders, that was done through a separate process.

    5. fhqwhgads*

      If the review process is normally a dialogue, I can see why they might not appreciate this process, although not for “focusing on the monetary”, that bit makes no sense to me either way. However, for example if it’s possible and at all common for someone to get their manager’s review and also submit their own self-review at the same time and then they go over both together, such that it’s possible for the manager to update his assessment based on maybe accomplishments they’d forgotten or not considered as heavily, but now do consider based on the discussion, then yeah it doesn’t make sense for the increase (or lack thereof) to have already been decided. However, if it’s generally more one-sided, and it would be very rare for anything the employee might bring up in the review discussion to have any bearing on compensation increases, then the order of operations as you describe is more efficient.

  173. Pinky Pie*

    I had an interview last week in which I got asked a question that is totally opposite of who I am. “Name one time you broke a rule. What was the consequence?”

    I generally follow rules. I don’t speed, unless it’s to keep up with the flow of traffic. I walk at the crosswalk. I may grumble, but my personality is one what is compliant. This question was very hard for me to answer. I finally talked about a time at camp when two girls had sex and was reported by their bunkmate. Knowing one of the girls was the preacher’s daughter of a conservative church, I didn’t tell the parents what really happened. I lied about the gender and the extent of their actions. I also told of the time I was ordered to reveal a teens pregnancy to the custodial dad, but told the noncustodial mom at the girl’s request.

    1. Reba*

      Wow, I would find that question strange and hard to answer, too!

      Both of your examples are pretty… heavy. I guess that was the point. I can only assume that these examples were relevant to your field (social work? youth minister?) otherwise I would think these would stop a conversation in its tracks. FWIW I see both of them as acting in the minor’s interest so hopefully that reflects well on you!

      1. LaDeeDa*

        The question is designed to see if you are a blind rule follower. They want to see if you see something that may be a rule, and something that “has always been done this way” will you blindly follow it, even if you can do it more efficiently, cheaper/better another way.
        Something like “we have always reported things X way, but I thought it would be better if we put it into an Excel spreadsheet that could be sorted. I generated the other report as well, in case my new report wasn’t received well. They loved the ease of the report, after a few grumblings from the old guard, but now it is the standard.”

        1. Rusty Shackelford*

          Interesting. If that was the kind of answer I wanted, I’d ask “tell me about a time you figured out a different way to do something.” Breaking a rule will get answers of things you’re not *supposed* to do, rather than things that no one thought of yet.

          2. LaDeeDa*

            And yes, it opens up the floor to some really interesting and often inappropriate answers.

          3. RandomU...*

            Yeah, I’d be looking for an answer something like this.

            “I had a customer order that was needed onsite the next day, our policy was to gain approvals from the director for shipping costs over $100. However the director and their backup were not available so I made the decision and authorized the $200 shipping fee. I weighed the consequences and we would have lost a $2000 sale had I not acted. I immediately emailed the details to both the director and their backup explaining my decision. “

              1. RandomU...*

                I’m a rule breaker… I love that question because I have a million examples :)

      2. Pinky Pie*

        I come from a human services background and was interviewing for an insurance job related to what I’ve done. My examples are going to be heavy because of what I’ve done.

        In my field, policy CYAs you and your actions. Failure to act according to policy can exposure you to legal and ethical risks. So, to me, being asked when I broke a rule meant when did I risk my certification and/or my job.

    3. RandomU...*

      Maybe this will help frame the answer that the interviewer is looking for.

      A good answer will have the following:
      1. Must be reasonable. (“I took the CEO’s new car without permission because she left her keys on the desk and it was quicker than walking to get lunch” would not be a good example. “I took the CEO’s car without permission because an employee injured themselves, I didn’t drive that day, we were the only people in the office, and while the injury was serious it didn’t warrant an ambulance)
      2. Should have some type of analysis on your part. (“I weighed the options… “I anticipated the result”… “I evaluated the consequences of not breaking the rule”)
      3. Should result in a benefit that is felt by others, especially clients or customers.
      4. Should be reported and owned up to immediately after breaking the rule.
      5. Bonus points if it’s a rule that a reasonable would have ignored given the same set of circumstances.

    4. Gumby*

      I would have had a hard time with this too. Rule-followers unite! I’d probably be all “well, when I was a nanny in college I sometimes let the kids stay up past bedtime…”

      If a rule is stupid, I try to get it changed rather than break it. I mean, as long as no one’s life or well-being is on the line; I’d break rules then.

      Except I do speed. But that might be a side-effect of living in California. There are times and places where driving the speed limit makes *you* the dangerous one!

  174. Fake Old Converse Shoes (not in the US)*

    So, one of the owners brought the flu to our office. I was the first to fall, and luckily for them I spent the entire weekend in bed, coughing my lungs out. Everyone is furious he insisted in coming to work, despite how much his associate and the receptionist (!) tried to reason with him. There was a point we thought they were going to drag him to his car and drive him home, but that didn’t happen.

    1. Zephy*

      My coworker was out of town last weekend and managed to bring some kind of creeping crud back from Boston with him. He’s been coughing and sneezing all over the office. I ran a Clorox wipe over shared equipment yesterday after he went home, and his office is across the room from mine so we’re not right next to each other, but I’m really hoping I don’t get sick this Memorial Day weekend. I have a friend coming down to visit and (1) I want to have fun with my friend and (2) I’d hate to get her sick, she has a 6-hour drive to get home on Monday and will probably need to do a lot of catching up on Tuesday (she works for a newspaper, Wednesday is press day).

    2. Goose Lavel*

      Same thing happened to me when our CFO came back from a business trip with the flu, obviously deadly ill and walking around the office without a care in the world. Everyone at the start-up eventually got the flu (25 people) and it negatively impacted a clinical study that was make or break for the company.

      I gave him a pay back about a year later when I caught the flu and noticed the symptoms at work. Before going home for what turned out to be a full week, I made sure I stop by his office and gave his keyboard and phone a good going over.
      I never heard if he caught the flu or if anyone else got sick, but at the time it did feel good.

  175. LaDeeDa*

    OK- so you are saying they are going to pick the people to get raises, and then do their reviews? That doesn’t make sense– they can then say things like “John needs a raise because he has been here 10 yrs and is the most senior. It should be based on performance. Why is someone who gets a Successful getting a raise/bonus but someone who got an Outstanding not getting a raise? Maybe I am not understanding your flow or questions… so I’ll give an example of how most places I have worked do it — and I have been in performance management a long time.
    We have a very defined amount for raises and bonuses for people who fall into each rating.
    So for example, anyone who gets below Successful will only get the standard 2% cost of living increase, and no bonus.
    Successful rating= X% raise (it fluctuates year to year) + 100% of bonus
    Exceeds rating = X% raise (it is usually .5% – 1% higher than the successful rating gets) + 125% of bonus
    Outstanding rating = X% raise (usually 1 – 1.5% aove Successful) + 150% of bonus.

    Our Performance flow goes like this —
    Employee self-review
    Manager review (manager reads employee review, and does their review. employees can’t see the manager review yet, no discussion has happened)
    Calibration with my PM team, HRBP, and department head. Calibration means we validate the rating- we sometimes have to have the manager change their rating bc they haven’t met the requirements for that rating.
    Manager-employee discussion on rating
    Managers have a week if they want to change the rating based on anything they learned in the discussion- which means it has to come back to my team, HRBP and their department head
    If everything is fine, it is signed off on by manager and employee.
    Because we have a set monetary range, and we announce the raise percentages at the town hall prior to the performance review period, people know exactly what their raise will be and their bonus will be.

    This keeps it fairer, and helps it be more objective and less subjective.

    I apologize if I misunderstood your question.

  176. merp*

    Hey pals! A bit late but here goes: my new job doesn’t allow for snacks/lunch at my desk. I’m very used to grazing and used to eat breakfast at my desk while working, snacking in the afternoon, etc. This week has been tough, getting v hungry without being able to take a break every time.

    Any advice for adjusting better? Any recipes for filling breakfasts or good snacks I can leave in the break room? Worried about greeting patrons hungry all the time.

    1. Nacho*

      Are you allowed regular breaks? I’ve found that a small snack every few hours is enough even if I can’t eat at my desk.

      1. merp*

        I think my snack choices just haven’t been filling enough. Might try nuts or something like Rusty says below. I know I’ll want some variety eventually though. Maybe homemade trail mix or something.

    2. Rusty Shackelford*

      Can you have drinks at your desk? Maybe a protein shake? In an opaque container so no one can tell what it is?

      High-protein snacks would be good for the breakroom, like jerky. Nuts or Kind bars/other bars are a good choice too.

      1. merp*

        The opaque container is a good idea… technically it’s just supposed to be water/coffee/tea. But what they don’t know won’t hurt.

    3. Not A Manager*

      Smoothie in a covered coffee mug.

      Nuts, string cheese, dried fruit, peanut butter/nut butter OR hummus and something to dip into it (pretzels, crackers, celery, etc.), hardboiled eggs, clementines or other small fruit.

      I’m a bear when I’m hungry. I would definitely have things in the break room that I could just grab a handful and munch on quickly if necessary. If there’s really no time, a spoonful of peanut butter and a glass of milk or orange juice will tide me over.

    4. Koala dreams*

      I like oats, if you have regular breaks and access to hot water. There are quick oats that you can buy in a container and just pour hot water and mix. Do your office allow for drinks at the desk? Then you can drink yoghurt or a warm cup of coffee, tea or soup.

  177. Bella*

    What is your company’s process for internal applications? I am looking to implement a process and I want to know what other companies do. We have a casual work environment with just over 100 employees with 6 business locations.

    1. Catsaber*

      I work at a big state university, so the process is pretty much the same as it is for external applicants: you apply through the website, manager does phone screens, then in-person interviews, and will finally extend an offer after all the approvals go through. The only thing that is different is that after the offer is accepted and the candidate puts in her two weeks, the managers and the candidate will work out a transition process. I would keep everything the same for how external and internal candidates are treated in order to be fair.

      So the transition process here can last about 2-4 weeks depending on how generous everyone is feeling. What is important is to not let the candidate get steamrolled. It’s really common at universities to have a lot of inter-departmental transfers, and sometimes the two managers will treat the transition process like they are bartering a cow or something. They don’t talk to the candidate, they just work out their own deal and all of the sudden, the candidate is stuck doing two jobs for the price of one for a month or so, and it’s horrible. Ideally, the candidate should finish any projects or get them to a hand-off point, train their peers (or replacement), and answer questions, but not be stuck doing a full workload.

      So my points are – treat the interviewing/hiring process the same as you would for an external candidate, and make sure the candidate is involved in the transition process!

  178. Me--Blargh!*

    Oh sheesh, that’s a lot of comments. I never seem to get here before it blows up.

    I’ve got six applications out; two of them I deep-sixed already because I haven’t heard anything. If it’s been at least two weeks, I mark them as no reply (purple color coding).

    I found this position listed that interested me, and I took a poll on Twitter: should I apply for a job for which I have a ton of raw potential but little experience? It didn’t get many responses but they were overwhelmingly for it. So I applied.

    The company’s web page had an option where you could send them a resume if you didn’t see an exact job posting for what you wanted. Ooh! I did apply for an actual position, but I said hey, if you think I might be great for something else, please let me know. (please please please please). I’ve never been to the city where the company is. I’ve been eyeing it anyway because it’s not in a handmaid state. Moving would be overwhelming, but I’m willing if it pays enough.

    If I get nothing else out of this, at least I jazzed up my portfolio a little. I remade a PowerPoint presentation video that was on my LinkedIn (with royalty-free music, which I personally cut). Plus I created a very cool infographic. I may not have used the fancy programs everyone asks for in their job posts, but I think I did a good job with what little I have.

    I do wish someone awesome would hire me for something awesome. I’m getting very tired of feeling like I’m throwing applications down a black hole.

    1. LGC*

      Honestly, I’m more likely to respond to the later comments because everything comes in at 11 AM! (I don’t know about anyone else, though.) I stopped worrying as much about being near the top because I’ll usually end up in the middle anyway.

      Good luck with your applications! Hopefully the position comes through.

      1. Me--Blargh!*

        ARRGHHH
        A rejection for one of them came in, probably while I was typing this post. -_-

    3. Kwebbel*

      Fingers crossed for you! Indeed, though the rule of quality over quantity applies here too, I always advise people to apply to more than just 1 or 2 jobs at a time. That way, you always have some applications rolling, which I think means you are in perhaps a better mindset to objectively evaluate a company during interviews to decide for yourself if you want the role.
      Hope it goes well, and that we hear a positive update from you soon.

      1. Me--Blargh!*

        I do try to apply to as many as I can find, but because of my LD limitation, sometimes that isn’t a lot. My goal is at least three a week, more if I can find them. In my city, I’m lucky some weeks if I can find anything at all that don’t ask for accounting. Even in LargerCity nearby, it’s limited. This job market has just gone way downhill.

        Plus, we’re officially a Gilead state now. Our newly signed handmaid bill takes effect in August and has allegedly been designed to withstand court challenges. This could trigger boycotts, which will hurt our economy even more (the rest is farming). I don’t see the job situation here getting any better. So yeah, I’m hoping I can get the bloody hell out of here as fast as possible.

    4. The Man, Becky Lynch*

      It’s discouraging when things don’t seem to be working out but you will receive responses, keep trying and channeling as much positivity as you can. Especially with the political climate you’re dealing with there right now, it’s extra weight on your soul. It’s hard but you will find the right job for you! Everyone I know survived the great recession and we had gotten to the point where we figured nothing would change during that time period either.

      Sending good vibes that way.

    5. bibliovore*

      sending good vibes. When I can’t check in earlier, I read the comments backward, so yours is an early one for me.

    6. Mimmy*

      I’m getting very tired of feeling like I’m throwing applications down a black hole.

      That’s how I feel about my networking emails!!!

  179. DownToOneHand*

    I’m a college student and I just started a new summer job in a field related to my degree (sort of like an internship). About an hour into my first day I injured my hand. At my manager’s insistence I went to the ER to have it checked out and was referred to see a specialist hand surgeon at a hospital an 8 hour drive away. I missed half of my first week to go and see him and luckily I don’t need surgery but I will be in a cast for most of my “internship” and will likely need to miss some time for physio/follow up appointments when it comes off. So far my coworkers and manager have been great but I’m nervous about how all of this will affect my ability to succeed and make the most of this opportunity. I’ve never had a workplace injury like this before and I’m not sure how to navigate this. Does anyone have any tips on how to still be a helpful, useful employee when I’ll be somewhat limited because of my cast (I can’t grip anything in my non-dominant hand)? Or advice on how to navigate asking for time off for follow up appointments? I don’t get any PTO since it’s an internship, but it’s a workplace injury and I don’t know if that changes anything.

    1. Dragoning*

      I would talk to HR about it if you can. And worker’s comp of some kind might apply and I wouldn’t discount that, either.

    2. RandomU...*

      Ouch….

      Since it’s a workplace injury, they will likely to be very flexible with you (well they probably would even if it weren’t a workplace injury). I’m assuming the doctors have cleared you to work in a limited capacity and you’ve shared your limitations with your boss. My best advice is to be positive and be willing to be flexible. I’m guessing they feel awful because of the injury and are probably going to be scrambling a bit to find you work that you can do. Keep an eye out for ways that you can safely help and otherwise be willing to pitch in when you can.

      Don’t worry about asking for time off for follow up appointments, just let them know when they are scheduled for.

    3. RandomU...*

      Sorry… thought of this after I hit submit.

      This is a great opportunity to get used to having uncomfortable conversations with your boss. Ask them how you can best be of use with your limitations and ask them how it works without PTO and appointments. These are normal questions that you should feel comfortable talking to your boss about. You also do probably want to talk to HR about how workman’s comp will be applied and make sure that you know what your responsibilities are and what their responsibilities are.

    4. Armchair Analyst*

      Talk to whomever was going to give you credit at your college for the internship – your professor, your advisor, your career center, your dean of (first-years, sophmores, school, etc.) They need to know that this happened to you and give you more advice specific to the relationship with your employer or your credit hours or whatever.

  180. Job Hunter, at the moment*

    Greetings all! I am currently job hunting for a position in a technical field (first full-time job out of college). I already closely tailor my cover letter to each position, but this past week, I finally took the plunge and also rewrote my base cover letter as advised on AAM, emphasizing specific successes and responsibilities that weren’t on my resume, my values, and specific positive feedback I’d gotten from colleagues.

    My question is: I feel that in my technical field especially, this isn’t how most people write their cover letters, and while I certainly have been convinced by this site that taking my letter in this direction is the right choice, I want to make sure I’ve used the AAM advice to good effect and written a letter that will stand out in a GOOD way.

    I really want to get a second opinion (or two) on what I’ve written, or some help with my new cover letter…but I don’t know where to go for this, since most people in my life are more familiar with the traditional regurgitate-your-resume cover letter guidelines. I was wondering if anyone could recommend any consultants, sites or articles in addition to AAM, categories of people in my life who I might not have thought about, etc.

    Thanks!

  181. Kira*

    I just got a job offer and was told to respond by Tuesday. I called and asked for time until at least Friday, and was told they have a 48 hr turnaround limit. Is that normal? I feel like at least a week is warranted. I got the offer letter barely a few hours ago. They wanted reasons why I needed more time than that. What would be a good reason? I need to talk to people?

    1. Anonymous Educator*

      48 hours is normal, but having it be that rigid is not normal. If they have a second-place candidate, that person isn’t going to disappear into thin air, just because they give you a little more time. That said, a week is a perfectly reasonable thing to ask for, but it’s also a reasonable thing to turn down.

      What would be a good reason? I need to talk to people?

      Well, what is your reason? Are you waiting on another job? Do you need to talk to people?

      1. Kira*

        They have a second place candidate, but I don’t see why they can’t wait a few more days to offer it to them if I say no. My reason is that I’m waiting on another job that will respond to me by late next week. Is it rude to say that to them?

        1. Anonymous Educator*

          I would go the other way. Instead of asking job A to give you a week, ask job B to speed up their decision, since you have another job offer on the table (and let them know you have that other job offer on the table). If job B is willing to move up their timeline to get you, then you can ask job A to give you 72 hours instead of 48.

          1. Kira*

            Job B is moving up their timeline, but its hard right now with the holiday weekend. I haven’t mentioned Job B to Job A yet – I didn’t want it to seem like I was not enthusiastic about Job A or still scoping out my options.

            1. Anonymous Educator*

              No, I wouldn’t mention job B to job A. You’re absolutely right not to mention it to them.

            2. WellRed*

              Are they taking the holiday into consideration or does that count as part of the 48 hours? Do you want the job?

              1. Kira*

                The job is a good job, but the other one is more exciting.

                They are not really taking the holiday into consideration. HR didn’t tell me anything official, but the hiring manager basically told me I could have a few more days, so my dilemma is postponed for a few days I guess.

    2. My boss is an idiot*

      I agree that a week is warranted, and they’re rushing you too much. Companies take 3 months on average to hire for a single position, there is no reason to rush you by 4 days.

      However, if you want to seriously consider the position, you probably need to abide by their timeline.

      1. Kira*

        Yeah that’s kinda what I told them. In much nicer terms I suggested that I had started interviewing elsewhere because they hadn’t gotten back to me in so long, and that was one of the things that made then more inclined to give me a few extra days.

  182. Sparkly Librarian*

    How do you fairly price freelance services for the person you’re hiring?

    I want to hire a singing group to perform briefly at a private event like a birthday party. This group is made up of my friends and acquaintances, and I specifically want them. If they’re not available, I won’t have live music at the event. It’s kind of a big favor to ask friends, so I want to offer them fair compensation for their time, but I don’t really know how much that is. I laid out the specifics in an email and asked them to send me their rates. They’ve been performing in public for a couple years… but sent me back an email saying “we’ve never done anything for a specific fee; only house parties and free events — what’s your budget?” Um… I don’t want to insult them by offering too little! At the same time, it’s not like I have a corporate account to cover this.

    I took a look at some Craigslist postings and a local gig website with price ranges, as well as the professional musicians’ union payscale, and took a stab at what I felt would be a good number. It comes out to $20-25/hr per person if you count rehearsal, travel, and performance time. Less than the union’s required minimum (which starts at 2 hours, and I just want one song), but they’re not union members and it’s not a formal performance. I’m hoping it won’t be awkwardly received. Is there some other trick of finding out what someone should be paid when they can’t or won’t tell you what they want to be paid?

    1. kc89*

      if they can’t name a price for you, that’s on them imo!

      sounds like you did a bit of research so they can’t be upset if they don’t like our number when they refused to give you a number of their own

  183. Friend*

    Not urgent. But I’ve hated my job for awhile and was pushed out recently. Everyone here (in the AAM open thread) was very kind and encouraging about it! This week I applied for a position through a recruiter and had a GREAT phone screen and at the end, the recruiter asked me what salary I’m looking for. Of course I know I was underpaid in my previous position(s) so I said my (previous salary + 40%). Well, the recruiter said she’d expected me to say 3x my previous salary, instead !! (About TWICE (previous salary + 40% )! I was like WOW! Good thing I’m not THERE anymore!!

    Thank you all for being so encouraging!!

    1. Kwebbel*

      You know, I have a colleague (an in-house recruiter) who goes for interviews once every six weeks or so. He has no intention of taking the jobs he interviews for, but he does it, as he says, so he “always knows his market value.”

      It’s so crazy how we can get into these funks when we’re at underpaying employers and think we’re worth less than we are!

    2. MissDisplaced*

      In your case, I’m not sure if I’d even say “my previous salary + X”
      I think I’d go for more of a “My research indicates this is typically a range of $X to $X, where are you at for this role?”
      Or, maybe “I’d like to be somewhere in the mid $X area” or “in the $X’s”

      Even better if you can get them to name their range first.

      1. fhqwhgads*

        I didn’t interpret that as them having literally said “previous salary+X”. I thought they were phrasing it that way so we could see the math of the numbers involved and they said actual numbers in the conversation?

  184. Queenie*

    Just about to end my 5th month looking for a new job and getting really discouraged. It has been absolute hell working here and trying to stay positive! The negativity, backhanded compliments, gas lighting, “feedback” and more is absolutely exhausting me! Anyone have any tips or advice for staying positive when you’re beat down? If it wouldn’t financially cripple my family I would just quit but the burden on my partner is too great for them to bear alone.

    1. Luna*

      My only advice is, try to find something to be happy about in even small things. Eat a dish that you particularly like, watch some videos of things you enjoy (animal videos, slideshows of nature with music/ambient sound, etc). It can be really tough to find something like that, but it doesn’t even have to be a ‘force yourself’ to find something.

  185. kc89*

    my work nemesis was bragging to anyone who would listen about how he was going to work from home today and I was SO excited to not have to listen to him mouth breathe, but I walk in today and of course there he f-ing is

  186. Just Started*

    I wanted to ask everyone for advice/experience around training in a new job! I just started a new job about two weeks ago – I work at a large university and so I just moved to a different college, doing a role I’ve done before but not for many years.
    I really enjoy my boss and most of the faculty/students I have met so far, but the person training me is killing me. She has no sense of taking a big picture or organized view of the job and on day 1 was throwing me straight into the weeds without any context. In my mind I thought I would maybe take the first two weeks to just do a lot of study – set up my phone and maybe start going over the basics, of course, but also just reading through handbooks and policy guides and old files to get a sense of things and then ask questions as needed. Furthermore, my trainer (whose position I am kind of taking over for) is very stream-of-consciousness and skips around all over the place when we’re sitting down together, and she prefers to use the bulleted job description as a guide for training versus how I’ve requested to do it (ie: by topic, like let’s look at admissions procedures from start-to-finish). I know I’m in a period of stress and uncertainty while I learn something totally new, but I feel like the expectations with how quickly I am picking everything up are completely insane. I was starting to feel a bit better as I’ve had some downtime to review things as I planned, but even today my trainer said something like “Now that you have the basics down I want to start getting you into the unusual problems.”

    I should say that I think this expectation is coming entirely from her as far as I know – my boss is faculty and very busy, I like him immensely, and in the interview process he said over and over again how he’s not a micromanager and just wants someone reliable to handle things for him and feel empowered (which is 100% what I prefer as well). He also told me that my trainer is not my boss and to see her as a resource but to push back if needed. I’m good at what I do and I’m keeping up and keeping my head above water, but so much of this is all new to me and I can see it taking weeks or months to even have a decent grasp at some of the basics. Furthermore this whole thing has me incredibly stressed and I’m having stress dreams at night about my work.

    I’m thinking about being more open/blunt about what my own personal timeline is for training, although I don’t want everyone to think I’m incapable because I’m taking so long to get up to speed. Or maybe I could create my own weekly training guide for myself and show it to my boss for approval? I’m trying to ignore things and just go with the flow but the whole thing has been causing me a lot of stress, and honestly, just making me angry in general (my thought coming in was that I could be here for 5-10 years – so sure I want to get up to speed, but why need to take over 100% of the job within 2 weeks of starting?)

    Am I being unreasonable? Has anyone ever had this situation and found a way to make things more manageable and on a better timeline?

    1. designbot*

      I’ve never had more than a couple hours of training before being thrown into the deep end of whatever job I’m doing. The idea that other posters seem to have that they’ll get trained in every new job by their superiors boggles my mind—they hired someone to do the job because the hiring manager thought they already knew how to do it. In terms of functional advice for you, maybe ask around a bit low-key about other people’s onboarding experiences there to see if training is A Thing at this organization or not. If it’s not A Thing They Do there, then developing some plan on how to train yourself to do a job you have already been hired to do may come across as incredibly tone deaf. However you may find out that you just have a bad trainer and then you can ignore me completely.

    2. fposte*

      Hmm. While it sounds like you’re clashing with your trainer and I agree with you on the big picture stuff, comments about reading manuals and setting up your phone for two weeks and “why need to take over 100% of the job within 2 weeks of starting?” make me wonder if your expectations are realistic. Generally you’re hired to do 100% of the job from the get-go no matter how long you hope to stay in the job; it’s just that earlier you may be doing it under more supervision. I’m wondering if you’re getting misled by the fact that she’s there and could do the work if you don’t, because in most jobs (and I’m in academics too, so it’s not like I don’t know how it works) the baton just gets handed to you and you have to run your lap.

      I think it’s fine for you to consider proposing alternatives, but when you say “weekly training schedule,” how many weeks did you have in mind? I’d say two, maximum, for training activities, with your trainer as a resource the first time you deal on your own with something after that. She needs to move on to other stuff, and you need to own this job at 100%.

      1. fposte*

        BTW, I mean “two, maximum” for a period you’re expecting her to be available to train, not that you would have two solid weeks of training. If it needs more than about 25 hours of training you’re not going to remember it when it comes up anyway.

    3. WellRed*

      Two weeks of reading guidebooks and setting up your phone? No. Isn’t the best training kind of on the job? I guess it depends on the field. I’m in journalism. You get hired, you’re gonna be writing stuff from day 1 (with oversight and guidance and defined (low) expectations).

      1. LQ*

        Yeah, I think in a lot of jobs it’s get in, get your butt in the chair and do something. It might not be perfect, it might not be the giant thing you do after you’ve been there a year, but I’ve only had one job or role where I wasn’t expected to just…do the thing on day 1.
        The job where there was a bunch of formal training was sort of like an entry level customer service role and there was a big formal training process around it that was a few weeks long.

        And if you want to be empowered? You gotta grab hold of that and do it. If you want someone to not micro manage you and you want to feel empowered you can’t expect a lot of training. Those two things are usually really opposite in jobs. Figure it out, make it work, make it yours jobs you have to hit the ground, roll, get up and run. What you do isn’t going to be perfect and everyone will know that, but you shouldn’t spend weeks setting up your stuff.

    4. Just Started*

      Sorry all – some more details would be helpful. I have done this job before but was clear in my interview/before accepting that I haven’t done it in about five years and would need some time to train and re-learn things. At the university we’re a big bureaucracy so even getting access to the systems I need can take weeks if not months, along with manual training sessions. I absolutely expected to jump into things and be taking over some things immediately, but my job is a very problem-solving sort of position that means you really need a very in-depth grasp of all situations and solutions and policies and possibilities before you can sit in front of a student and help them trouble shoot. Students will come to me to be the expert on things and I just found it ridiculous to be scheduling appointments with them two days into a totally new position with no time to even review their degree structure, policies and handbooks. I’ve been doing some form of this job (in different levels) for 10+ years so I guess in my mind I’ve looked back on all the jobs I’ve had doing this before, thinking about how long it was until I had both a base line of knowledge to begin the work and also until I felt completely comfortable troubleshooting big problems, and I’d say it was 2-4 weeks for the former and probably 6 months for the latter. I guess I was approaching it as a marathon and not a sprint – and when I was getting detailed student problem information in my first 1-3 days with no broader context in which to place it, it was very overwhelming and frustrating! In my last position I did sit in a separate office shared with my boss and a peer and just crammed and learned the material – policies, classes, degree requirements, etc. and asked questions as I went along, and I shadowed student appointments for that time as well. You wouldn’t put a brand new person in front of a student because if you gave them the wrong advice, it could have dire consequences and obviously reflects badly on the person and the department!

      They’ve also given me some really specialized big-picture tasks – such as creating a brand-new degree program. I sat through a training to get access to do this and my trainer thought my department was nuts asking me to do this in my first week. Each department just has such individualized knowledge and procedures that it seems silly to expect me to know it all by the end of week two.

      At any rate, I’m in the deep end and swimming, so I guess I’ll just keep going until it gets easier.

      1. Cassie*

        I work in a university too and my boss is faculty. I’ve never really had extended 1:1 training before (I asked a couple of my close work friends and they said the same thing). There are certain training classes, like this is how you post a purchase order, but nothing on the day-to-day level. Meanwhile, I know 1 dept who brought in a trainer to sit with the new staff member for 2 hours per day (for a year!), and I have seen recently a supervisor sit with her staff for at least an hour a day for over 2 months to go over what appears to be the same tasks (how to process a reimbursement; how to post a purchase order). It’s a little mind boggling.

        I would say just take notes as best you can so you can refer to them later. Long-term: make connections with people in similar positions in other departments or in central units so you can check with them if you have any questions. When students approach you with a question, google it if you have to – e.g., for stuff like government regulations on student visas, other universities might have more detailed information than your trainer would have. Then you’ll have some idea of what is and is not allowed, and maybe that’ll help you form your responses.

      2. Anon-Today*

        Whoops I replied before reading this, but in light of the p.s. all I can say is you just can’t tell people what to do or how to do it when you’re new in the position. What you might gain in having things done to your taste you would lose in good will that could cost you much more than a couple of weeks of being overwhelmed and annoyed.

        I interviewed at a place that was expanding quickly, and I could see at the interview that the growing pains would be overwhelming. They even have a problem with parking because they expanded without thinking of where they would put all those new people. They didn’t expand their IT department either. Fortunately, they hired someone else.

        You’ll be fine. I use the *shrug* “I’m new here” line at a new job for at least a year in every new job.

      3. fposte*

        You don’t have to know it all by week two, but you have to be prepared to let your trainer go by then. It sounds like maybe you’re somebody who’s uncomfortable with taking off the training wheels until you’re 100% ready to bike, but handling problems you’re not entirely comfortable with handling is actually a pretty reasonable work expectation. If there are specific tasks that are an overstretch you can come up with proposals about better ways to handle them–but that still officially have the training wheels off. It’s fine to say anytime “Jane, can we meet for an hour to go over the plans for the new degree program?”, but you can’t hang on to Jane as a trainer just because the new degree program hasn’t been worked out yet.

    5. Anon-Today*

      Yep, you’re being unreasonable. If the trainer is leaving the job, giving you a ThisJob 101 overview isn’t in the cards. That may be the way you prefer to learn, but you have to adapt to the workplace, not the other way around.

      You can assemble your notes into your big picture as you learn things, but as a newbie, you just have to sink or swim. Some places have more formalized and logical onboarding and training, but this place may want to send your trainer into the new job as fast as possible. Remember that your trainer wasn’t hire to be a trainer, so they probably never learned anything about learning styles or big picture vs. weeds. It may also be how they were trained.

      You’ll adapt.

  187. blaise zamboni*

    In an interview, is it okay to say that your coworkers do bad work?

    I don’t mean as a standalone statement, just…my current role has morphed into me prepping work for a coworker and then checking the work she’s done afterwards, because her independent work is so bad. We’re in the same position, so this isn’t explicitly in my job duties, but if I don’t check her work it causes various issues for both of us. My boss will ask me why X wasn’t done, and if I say, “hmm, Cersei is actually the person who handled that case,” my boss essentially tells me that X needs to be done whether Cersei is the person doing it or not. I have had multiple conversations with Cersei about her missing information, doing incomplete work, or straight-up making errors, but she usually insists that everything she does is fine and if there’s a problem, maybe it’s my fault and I should fix it. (And I do fix it, like a sap.)

    I reached a breaking point and brought multiple egregious errors to my boss, and told her how undervalued I felt because I’m doing, basically, all of the actual work. My boss told me she sees that I do all of that, she sees that Cersei is very weak in those areas, and that she values me so highly because my strengths “complement” Cersei’s weaknesses. As far as I can tell, she didn’t speak to Cersei about improving her own performance.

    So. Now I’m interviewing for a role which involves a lot of auditing and correcting work from other departments to maintain compliance. I have become really, really good at that, because of Cersei. I already had a lot of attention to detail, and a proactive working style, but because of Cersei those qualities have been amped up to 11. I have to juggle the workload of 2 people, and I do a goddamn good job of it. But I don’t know if I can say that to an interviewer? I’m worried that it will come across like I’m not a team player, or like I resent people for making mistakes or something. In reality, I’m quite friendly and patient, and have a great relationship with everyone else in my office. And I actually enjoy finding and correcting errors–it’s like a puzzle! I just don’t want to do it in this context anymore, where my efforts aren’t seen or appreciated by my team member or my boss.

    I don’t know how to phrase my experience with her in a way that’s neutral and effective. Should I just leave my coworker out of it, and find another way to explain my experience? Can anyone give me a reality check or suggestions for wording?

    1. Anonymous Educator*

      It’s okay to say negative but true things about another employer or even a co-worker. I think the general advice against not badmouthing former workplaces is really just to be wary of coming across as bitter about everything and feeling it’s always someone else’s fault. The hiring employer doesn’t want to feel that once you leave her company, you’ll just be badmouthing her to interviewers at other places.

      But if you can show you’re generally positive about things, it’s okay to point out one or two instances of things other people did that were less than ideal.

    2. LaDeeDa*

      Form it as a positive. “In my current role, I get the opportunity to be the auditor and editor/mistake finder (however it is best to phrase it). This came about because we have some staff who are less experienced/new and my manager trusted me to be the final set of eyes before the work was finalized. While doing that, I discovered I really enjoy it and I excel at it.”
      Good luck!

    3. designbot*

      I think you could say, I’ve actually been in an unofficial role with this sort of responsibility with the past year, as my boss relies on me to proof and correct some of my newer colleagues and I have been ultimately responsible for the completeness and correctness of multi-contributor work.
      Basically, talk more about what you have been doing, and less about what Cersei has been doing. The interviewer doesn’t need to know that this only came about because Cersei is particularly bad at her job and this unofficial status has been driving you crazy. They just need to know that your boss relies on you, that you oversee the work of others, and that your attention to detail benefits your whole team.

    4. Anon-Today*

      “My supervisor trusts me to proof the work of others in the department because she knows I’ll catch even small errors.”

      No need to say that you’re fed up with the person you have to correct.

      I’m struggling with a similar idea: I’ve become more organized and focused because my supervisor and supervisee (I only have one) are very disorganized and unfocused. Neither one of them responds to emails and neither one meets deadlines. I’ve applied for a job where I’m not a supervisor just so I won’t be squeezed between two incompetents. If my new boss is a terrible supervisor, at least I won’t be held back as a supervisor by reporting to someone who can’t back me up due to her own incompetence.

  188. The Tiredest Panda*

    Not looking for advice, per se, more just some support and good vibes.

    A dear friend/colleague passed away on Monday night. We found out on Tuesday, staring down the barrel of a 14 hour day. It’s been a rough week, especially for my co-workers who were especially close with him.

    (I work in the arts, so boundaries tend to be more blurred. Coworkers often become close friends/family, especially if you work with them often. Not in a “management tells us that to make us work harder” kind of way, but more of a genuine, we spend a LOT of time together in usually smallish quarters where there has to be some measure of trust/support bc of the nature of the art and so people connect and become/stay close in and out of work hours).

    He was a lovely man who had a great impact on the community as a whole, as well as our place of work. I miss him a lot, and I can’t believe he’s gone.

    Add to all that grief, we’re working on a huge, extensive project. This project alone would be a lot under any circumstances. I’m just very tired. The result is going to be awesome, but getting there is driving me (and the rest of my co-workers) into the ground. Two more days until our day off. I just need to know we can make it till then!

    1. Jayess*

      You absolutely can make it. It will be painful, and hard. But human nature is to bear up under adversity. Keep putting one metaphorical and literal foot in front of the other. Keep breathing. Cry when you need to. Two more days. Those days would pass regardless… you will find a way, even if you’re not sure how or when.

    2. Sam Sepiol*

      I’m so sorry for your loss <3
      I hope you can get through until your day off!

  189. Beth Jacobs*

    What are your strategies for keeping notes on how to do a task? My job is very diverse – I produce a whole lot of different type of documents with very formal rules (down to where to put the date and how to number them), but these rules aren’t written down in any sensible form (I mean there’s templates, but apparently we do certain things differently from templates… ugh). I’m just struggling how to keep my notes organised since I do so many different tasks. I realise I need a months old notes and then really have no idea how to find them.

    TGIF!

    1. Lilysparrow*

      For things like process checklists, I’ve always done best with hard copy in a binder and index tabs. I find it tricky to jump between 2 screen windows without missing something.

      If you already have the notes handwritten, just pop them in a page protector and put the title of the document on an index tab.

    2. Anon-Today*

      Can you create a template from a template? You can do a strikethrough of what your office has changed, then put what you really do in italics. That way if your office gets orders to line up with official ways you still have the original info.

    3. Cassie*

      I have the same problem, except I have some handwritten notes and some digital notes. It’s a mish-mash. Something I’m considering doing – scan the handwritten notes, add some relevant tags so I can search, and then just live with the chaos-ness. I just don’t have the discipline to standardize and organize everything!

    4. Gumby*

      Do you file your notes in places that make sense? Like with the project name? Or by sponsor name? Business area? Maybe broader categories make sense? Even if you don’t know where the teapot materials melting point graph is, you might remember that it should be under the “CEO pet projects” category somewhere which should limit the number of files to look through. (The chocolate teapots are the first to go but man those tungsten ones last a while.) (Except that one project for the Icehotel, but those never made it to production.)

      Also naming conventions are your friend! Assuming these are digital files – if you use consistent names you can run more confident searches.

      In addition, I would err on the side of too many templates. If the monthly report for project sponsor A is almost like those of sponsor B but requires a different font and dates need to be in mm/dd/yy instead of mm/dd/yyyy, I would just create a separate template for sponsor B so I wouldn’t have to constantly go back and recheck what changes have to be made between the two.

    5. Beth Jacobs*

      Thanks for the tips everyone! I’m going to try to keep them electronically, since paper obviously isn’t working for me.

    6. Analytical Tree Hugger*

      Since you’re going electronic, consider using a platform like Microsoft’s OneNote; the platform is free and let’s you create separate tab and pages. And then, you can search across the a particular page, tab, or the entire notebook. That’s how I started out tracking my processes, templates, etc.

      Evernote and other alternatives are out there, though I’m not familiar with the platform.

  190. Lilysparrow*

    Ugh, and double-ugh.

    I am a freelancer, currently looking for a couple extra clients or for a part-time remote job in my field.

    Ugh: I got contacted this morning about a long-term role that sounded great, with a very reputable company. I was getting excited about the opportunity and replied through the job board platform. The response? An invitation to one of those Google Hangout “interviews” where they try to lure you into a check-kiting scheme. Grrrr *shakes fist*. Resume now set to “private.”

    Double-ugh: While reviewing my resume settings, I notice some errors were introduced by the upload interface. And when I opened my actual resume file, I found that one big honking error was not from the upload.

    It was in the original.

    Like, half of one job description was chopped off in the middle of a sentence.

    I’m guessing maybe Word crashed while I was saving it? Maybe I managed to save a temp file over the actual file? I have no idea. I’d proofed it multiple times and then assumed it was good after that.

    I have sent this version out with at least two applications.

    *Headdesk*

    1. Argh!*

      A second pair of eyes really helps with these things. I’m a terrible proof reader. I see what i expect to see, and I’m a speed reader, so I overlook tiny problems all the time.

  191. Sovereign HR*

    Am I allowed to ask a second question?

    Are your write ups labels “write ups?”

    Ours are. And I am trying to get that changed.

    Our initial write up is considered a warning/verbal notice. Yet it still has to be signed and is documented against you, compared to a “note to file” which means you have been told to improve something.

    1st written
    2nd written
    Final written
    Termination
    ————

    I want to have the wording changed to PIPs. Write ups indicate you’ve done something wrong and that’s it. PIP’s express the desire by the company to help you correct the mistake. If the performance is improved, the initial PIP is solved. The words “write up” show no desire from the company for the employee to improve, just the implication that “You did this. And we are getting you for it.” That’s it. No further discussion regarding it.

    I also want our evaluation wording to change from “average” to “Is Meeting Expectations.” When a supervisor says: “Nice job, you’re average. That’s good. Like everybody else.” It KILLS morale.

    It seems to me a changing of a few words and coming from empathy rather than fear would result in a lot more flies being caught and true improvement within the company.

    Thank you for your help and thoughts. Really trying to initiate change in a place that I believe is tougher than most. This website has been such a great place to improve work.

    Thanks, A! Thanks, everybody!

    1. The Man, Becky Lynch*

      We call them Written Warnings. [Also it’s critical to “write” and document what is usually considered a verbal warning because a true verbal warning is impossible to actually use if you’re trying to build a case for unemployment in many jurisdictions].

      They are different than a performance improvement plan because it’s not a performance issue most often, it’s usually due to a behavior issue. So the written warning states “We expect you to change your attitude immediately.” more than anything. Now if it’s actually a PIP and it’s due to errors or needing to be retrained, that wouldn’t be put into a written warning. That would be an actual action plan used to coach the person into doing their jobs to the company standards.

      By making warnings or PIPs disappear after a certain time, you are going to create an atmosphere where someone who is truly gaming the system can get by easily. So I would rethink the idea of going that route. Many people can change for a predetermined amount of time and then go right back to bad habits/attitudes otherwise and that opens you up a big can of “well you said you’d never bring that issue up again because I fixed myself for the time you said I had to!”

      So really, you don’t have to have one or the other, you can find a hybrid setup, since it’s all for documentation purposes in the end and you can treat them different.

      We don’t use “average”, we use “satisfactory” and that’s always worked well. I absolutely agree that “average” is a bad choice of words and should be tossed out!

    2. Argh!*

      PIPs are more formal processes, and they don’t count as progressive discipline in themselves. They are literally for working with someone to improve, working on specific things, for a specific time, with active support from the supervisor. You can’t just take a written warning and call it a PIP.

    3. Nacho*

      I understand changing how you actually treat the write ups, but I don’t think changing the words themselves will make a difference. People are smart, and they understand nuance. They’ll figure out pretty easily that PiPs are just write ups with a fancy name, and a 3/5 review is still average even if you start calling it “Meeting Expectations.” Trust me, my company has both of those things, and I’ve never thought any better of them just because they have different names. If you’re trying to change them, you’re going to spend capital without seeing any real changes being made.

  192. theguvnah*

    My team is expanding and i just posted 4 new roles. I am already overwhelmed with emails from people I know who want to apply.

    I’m not sure I have a question, but if anyone has tips on handling hiring for several roles at once with lots of people you know and have to work with (think nonprofit advocacy work) expressing interest, I welcome it!

    1. Bike commuter*

      My best advice is to maintain a professional tone and process as much as possible. If people know you personally, they can expect special treatment in the hiring process and/or feel upset and take it personally if they don’t get the job. You can say “Thanks for your interest, please apply through X avenue and we’ll reach out to qualified candidates for interviews.” Insist that everyone send in a decent cover letter and resume or follow whatever process you’ve established.

      If you start off with any kind of more personal tone, it’s really hard to pull back to professionalism later. I’ve seen things go south quickly, where a coworker was involved in hiring and was texting with a job candidate about the position, which made the candidate feel comfortable asking for extra information about the position others didn’t have access to. The coworker ended up resenting the candidate for asking for more information and accused her of being unprofessional when really it was texting about the job that set a non-professional tone from the beginning. Once the candidate came in to interview, they turned out to be much weaker than expected and did not get the job. Bad feelings abounded.

      As for handling multiple jobs, just use any kind of system to stay organized, even just Google sheets if you don’t have funds for a fancy hiring system.

    2. The Man, Becky Lynch*

      Organization and remember to breathe between applicants.

      I find hiring to be the most exhausting, even when it’s just one role. The fact you’re making a large decision, in this case four large ones, you have to give your time and pace yourself. They’re rolling in but you have to take it one bite of the elephant at a time.

  193. dana*

    hi so i’m a part time worker at mcdonalds as well as a full time student. i work 2 shifts a week on the weekends (friday to sunday). all was well until we got new managers. heres what happened, i spoke with the new manager lets call her Amy and i told her that i needed to book off the month of Ramadan (holy Islamic month of fasting) as it was a holy time of thanksgiving and spending time with family. and obviously working with food while fasting is hard enough, i know this because i attempted to do so last year and it was too difficult. anyways so she says okay i understand since its longer than 2 weeks you have to sign a leave of absence and i was like yeah for sure so i signed it and she said that she will only schedule me if she absolutely needs me and that the shifts would be 4 hour max. I said alright as I understand how busy it gets especially in summer. fast forward to now. i got scheduled 2 days next weekend, both 7-8 hour shifts. i texted Amy but she didn’t answer so i texted the other new manager lets call him Alex. i tell him i cant work and that im on a leave of absence. he responds to me saying that i made an agreement with Amy that if she needed me to work that i will come to work and i told him about my ramadan situation and he replied to me with “We have day staff who work 40 hours a week plus have stuff they do after work that celebrate it and still come into work. Ramadan is 6 weeks if we have to schedule u 1 to 2 days we will”. Like what??? I don’t think this is fair at all. I don’t know what to do though. help!

    1. Bike commuter*

      I’d start by calling one or both of them on the phone to discuss further–it’s easier to resolve things that way rather than texting. It sounds like you’re okay being scheduled for a few shifts, as long as the shifts aren’t too long? I’d approach it by asking for the shift to be shortened to four hours, since it sounds like you did agree to that. And although it may not feel like it should be necessary, it can help to butter people up by expressing some sympathy for their position, like “Hey, I know summer is a really busy time, I totally understand that it’s tough to get enough coverage, however, fasting is a really important religious obligation for me and these are the terms Amy and I agreed on that I need to have honored.” When you’re sympathetic to someone else (even if you have to fake it) they’ll be more sympathetic to you.

      Best of luck to you and Ramadan Kareem, I once fasted for Ramadan when I was living in a Muslim country and it was challenging, I can’t imagine working in food service while fasting.

      1. Lilysparrow*

        Yeah, I think this is a good approach. Especially if you offer them a solution instead of a problem.

        So if they need you for 16 hours, and you agreed not to work more than 4 hours per shift, you could offer to take shorter shifts on 4 days instead of 2.

        They still may not work with you, (or may not have coverage to break up the shifts like that) but it will show that you’re doing everything you can to keep up your end of the agreement.

        If they are short-handed, I would think they would rather not lose you altogether. So you have some leeway to discuss this.

    2. The Man, Becky Lynch*

      Is this the only fast food restaurant in your area? I’m only saying this because these two sound insufferable and like they’re not going to work with you like Amy originally seemingly promised. You may want to assume you’ll need to quit. This is sadly what happens in the service industry, especially fast food.

      They keep over scheduling my nephew, who’s a high school student and has a legal threshold when school is in session but yeah, nobody cares about that in the end. I’ve seen reports of fast food establishments getting slugged with fines for messing with minors like that, argh.

      You’re not a minor so it’s not illegal in that sense but just saying, the industry is horrid and treats staff like that on the regular. I’m so sorry that you’re going through this.

    3. Cows go moo*

      I know this is probably not the advice you want but long term you should consider other industries if you need to be off work for during Ramadan every year. Even if you sort your hours out this time realistically it’s difficult to arrange that kind of longer absence when you’re doing shift work.

      We have a younger employee who is also observing Ramadan and honestly it’s been a pain to accommodate her frequent absences. Her case is a little different to yours because she wants to continue full time work but frequently misses work stating she is too tired from fasting or sick from not eating adequately. As a manager I have to think of the whole team and running the business smoothly and it’s caused all sorts of problems having one person call in sick on multiple occasions with little notice.

    4. Koala dreams*

      You have my sympathy. It’s ridicoulous to suggest that if you have leave approved by the manager you still need to work 7-8 hour days, 8 hours is typically considered a full working day. It’s also ridiculous to compare you to fulltime staff when you only work part-time. I think you should call your manager or set up a meeting and then you repeat that you are willing to help out occasionally for shorter shifts max 4 hours a day, but you won’t be able to work full days. If they still don’t accept it maybe you need to quit and find another job. Maybe someone else can answer the question of religious accomodation, I know nothing about that.

    5. WellRed*

      If you are on a leave, you should not have agreed to take any hours ( because this kind of “hours creep” will occur). Fast food places are gasping for workers. Find another place.

    6. dana*

      thank you guys, i told my manager that i am willing to honour my agreement and work a 4 hour shift max and he said okay so next weekend ill be working 9-1pm on the weekend. but a lot of you are right, working in food service is really difficult so i’m going to be applying to new jobs where there is better management because the way my manager went about it was very rude. thank you for your replies!

  194. Anon-Today*

    I have put in an application for a transfer, and I really don’t want to be bothered by the people I’m trying to get away from after I get the new job. I’ve been uploading essential documents to a shared drive but I’d love some recommendation of other things to do.

    Ideas, anyone? I know it’s late to the party, but this is a two-day thread in theory.

    1. NoLongerYoung*

      When my predecessor was planning and left my department for his new one, he carefully did not burn any bridges. He created not just files, but a master one-note file, with each relevant work stream and step by step writeups. Bridge safety project one: who knew what, link to the master document, what had been done (not the project plan, just a summary), and what needed to be done. Any gotchas or unique things.
      He did a write up for EVERY major workstream/ project.
      There was also a master cover sheet, that had the most urgent items on it. A write-up of all the stakeholder groups, who the contact person was for each, and what “my” role was to be.
      And an excel sheet of all the contacts he’d made – with which workgroup they belonged to (so I could sort and get a list by workgroup), their role/department, and/or what the latest note on them was (replaced Sirena as lead on the tribal council against indulgences).
      I got a free pass to contact him – after the transition – for a total of 5 extra hours. I spread those out for urgent items. (the bosses negotiated his availability).

      It was pretty impressive. The sharepoint had over 1000 documents in it – including saved copies of all the emails documenting key decisions,and everything was labeled so it was easy to search.

      But the summary was very useful.

      1. Anon-Today*

        Wow! That’s a lot!

        I have some hope that I can carry over some of my job duties to the new position, but only if there’s a huge reorganization at the same time. We were supposed to be reorganized out of existence a few years ago, which is why I want to jump ship. But just in case, documenting those things too is probably the best thing.

        Thanks for the input.

  195. No T, No Shade, No Pink Lemonade*

    How to manage the inevitable drama that happens in an all female workplace?

    I’ve worked in this mostly woman dominated field for several decades. I’ve seen this drama before. I feel that I’m in a place, in my career, where I can express my concerns and endure any repercussions.

    My position – at this time – is subordinate to everyone (7 staff members) which makes it harder to watch certain staff treat another. It doesn’t have to be this way. I’m frustrated and want to say something in a professional and constructive manner focused on the team and organization, not individuals. I also don’t feel going to the top will work it’s way downward in a timely manner, but yet I know improvements may have to start at the top.

    All of us are experienced in our fields/roles and don’t need management, we need leadership, but we’re not getting that. We’re struggling and there are imminent staff departures if the environment and relationships don’t improve.

    What’s the best way to start the ball rolling? Is it worth tackling?

    1. Koala dreams*

      It has not been my experience that there is more drama or another kind of drama in all-female workplaces as opposed to mixed gender workplaces.

      As for dealing with mean or rude collegues, I think it’s easier to make a comment in the moment, as opposed to going to the boss or HR later. Especially since it sounds like the management doesn’t really care? If those problems are widespread in your industry, is it possible to work on changing the culture of your profession through an union or another professional organization? The last few years I’ve seen campaigns by the nurse’s union as well as the construction union focused on workplace culture issues. If there is no union there might be another professional organization where you can find allies, or you could even consider starting an organization with the help of like-minded collegues.

    2. Anon-Today*

      Can you afford to buy too many donuts or too many pizzas for a made-up special occasion? If you share the goodies with the team, it might start some friendlier conversation. And… you can invite the absentee management to share in the goodies. Then, if they mention it when you have them alone, you can explain the situation and your belief that all these well-meaning professionals can coalesce with a common goal, if only to devour goodies.

      Hierarchies tend to be dismissive of the opinions of the people lower down, which is a shame. They often have the most to offer.

    3. Anon Anon Anon*

      Two thoughts:

      1) I have thought the same thought about being able to endure repercussions and it hasn’t really been true. Even if you’re in a stable place and well-liked, there can still be fallout that effects you, long-term or short-term. So I would take that into account. As with anything, hope for the best but prepare for the worst just in case.

      2) Step back and decide what the main big picture issues are, if you haven’t already. If it were me, I would go as big picture and solution-focused as possible. Because if there’s already drama, there’s the potential to add to it by causing people to assume that you’re talking about them. If possible, try to bring in examples from other places where you’ve worked or talk about how common the issues are. And then quickly move on to focus on solutions. Keep it positive!

  196. KD*

    Hey all! I’m new to this site but I’ve found a lot of helpful things here so I thought I’d pose a question.

    I graduated in 2017 and have had a hard time finding a permanent job. I work in graphic design which is a fairly competitive field so I was a little prepared for this when I graduated. For most of my two years of job searching, I’ve sort of stuck with the tactic of applying to literally any job I was remotely qualified for using the same resume and cover letter every time. This hasn’t been getting me great results. I’ve had a few temp/contract jobs and an internship but nothing long-term. I’ve recently rewritten my resume and decided to actually write cover letters as suggested for every job I apply for. The problem is I’m getting pretty desperate for a “real” job. I’m working two part-time retail positions and living with my parents so I’d honestly take anything in my field and in my preferred location at this point. I just want stability and experience and if I actually like the job that would be a great bonus. How do I narrow my search enough to feasibly tailor my application every time and not get burnt out but still cast a wide enough net to have good chances? I don’t know what criteria I should focus on. To make it harder I’m really trying to relocate to a big city (like NYC, DC, etc.) where there are more jobs but also more competition. I feel like I need to apply to everything but I know that I can’t do that and still be sending quality applications. Any advice is greatly appreciated!

    1. Not A Manager*

      Can you triage? Send your stock resume and cover letter to your B list jobs, and tailor them for your top choices.

    2. Autumnheart*

      What about writing a few different cover letters and varying between them? Or, at least, having a stock cover letter, and then adding a paragraph or two of information specifically relevant to that company? Then at least you’re not writing a new letter every single time, but each application has a targeted letter.

    3. Anon-Today*

      You may need to settle for a smaller market to start with. After a few years you’ll be able to launch from there.

      Or you could just make the leap and move to a big city and then work part time jobs in a there while you look for a real job. If you can find a roommate situation the costs might not be prohibitive.

      Have you done any piece work for online customers, like designcrowd? You could save your pennies toward a move that way.

      Good luck!

    4. MissDisplaced*

      You need to have a designer resume and a resume for everything else.

      I’ve been doing design since the 90s and never really found finding design work difficult unless you were aiming for the Big Name Ad Agencies.

      Is there just not much work in your area? Because even smaller companies need some design work and will hire an in-house designer (though sometimes you might be the Admin + Designer + Marketing Person). Granted, this isn’t nearly as exciting work, but it gets you experience. Also, starting out often means more “production” and less creative work as a designer. Again, no it’s not exciting sizing photos, but I’ve given many a recent grad a job and a start this way, and tried to give them a few pieces of creative they could show.

      It is a shame though that so many magazines and newspapers have disappeared. These were all places young designers could get a start.

  197. NoLongerYoung*

    Ask: commiseration

    I just got the rejection email from HR, for a lateral transfer, for a role I basically already do (I perform a more difficult version of the same tasks). Same boss.

    Think – I supervise two crews (indirectly) of bridge building workers. There’s 2 tribal councils that indirectly feel they control the bridges. Those councils are always at war, but agreed these bridges need to be maintained or periodically replaced. I am responsible for keeping peace, building consensus on the bridge features, and lots of details. Including selling why we need to upgrade the bridges, or make them safe, to the governance council that holds the purse strings.

    It’s crazy town, and the truth is, I should have someone above me to manage the councils, so I can just manage the bridge building. Or I take the (currently non-existent) management job, and we hire for my bridge building manager role.

    So this lateral job, has the flack cover upper manager job, AND two people doing the bridge crew management (they have a couple more bridges). One of the two is a contractor. This is for the slightly more senior, regular hire bridge crew management of the two.

    I’m overqualified, but I’d love to be able to share the workload. It is a more life-balanced role than mine. Not as juicy with intrigue, but there’s only one, happy council who isn’t trying to wrestle control at every turn. They don’t think they can build them faster, nor try to have your entire crew fired and take over, if they don’t like the style.

    My new manager is also the former holder of the other role. She held the job req open so I could apply for it. I asked her twice when we were going to interview, but she is on overload,and I never got an answer.

    However, I did find out from someone else this week… the contractor (who is very good) applied for it too. The contractor is amazing and great at it… and would do well.

    And of course, it is 6 pm on a holiday weekend, so I have no info to go on.

    Here’s my conclusion:
    I was asked – also this week – to create a document for all the work I did, as the grand boss wants to make a plea for there to be two people in my role, one senior strategy to help manage the councils, one the day to day. I suspect they do not want to lose me in my current “manage the warring tribes” capability.

    They don’t want to lose the amazing contractor, if she doesn’t get the job.

    So rather than tell me that, my (can’t make a decision/ not direct) manager just … rejected me?

    So I guess I better get to work this weekend on creating that document. Because this is not a bearable situation (the warring factions are about to have another rumble, at the same time that one of the replacement bridges is having a grand opening).

    I’d been expressing interest in this job since it was posted… so it was a blow. And I only have 7 years of my work life left… that role is known for stability and balance. It would have been a happy place, farther away from my crazy town.

    I did send a nice note and ask my manager (since the email mentioned lack of qualifications) if we could use my next 1:1 to discuss what part of my qualifications needed work. (Trust me, folks, that is not true…so I think there must have been limited choices for rejection without an interview).

    Just… a lousy way to start the holiday weekend.

    1. Koala dreams*

      I’m sorry to hear that you didn’t get the job you hoped for! Can you take the weekend off and do non-job things? When I’m disappointed, I either give myself time to just feel sad, or I try to distract myself with fun things to cheer me up.

    2. Pippa*

      That is such a disappointing way to receive the news. But consider using the weekend to focus on you rather than work. Do whatever you can that is energizing and makes you happy. Take a much needed break from crazy town. It will be there on Tuesday and if you invest in yourself these next few days as best you can, you’ll be a stronger advocate for yourself and that document will be less of a chore. Fingers crossed that there is good news coming for you and the bosses are just extremely poor communcators.

      1. WellRed*

        Also, unless your one on one is coming up immediately, ask for a mtg to discuss this. It doesn’t sound like your job is in danger, so I see no reason not to make it clear you are not pleased by this treatment of you ( and could theoretically decide to leave, so they’d lose you anyway).

        1. NoLongerYoung*

          Thank you all. The company won’t lose me (I’m at a critical juncture where I have just those few years left, so the benefits – and rare pension contribution on their part – are amazing. But it’s a huge company and I could transfer…. I just need to get a move on and take that updated resume and start applying!

  198. Monstera*

    Does anyone have experience handling workplace cliques? There is a group of “mean girls” at my office who frequently badmouth others and exclude a few choice people in the office. I am a newer member of the team (been here 7 months) and I’m now finding myself on the receiving end of the exclusion and gossip. I am searching for another job, but I’m having a lot of trouble coping on a day to day basis. I feel so emotionally exhausted and also angry that these adult women are acting like this.

    1. Luna*

      Just because they are acting like they are still stuck in highschool doesn’t mean you have to, or even should. See them as children because that’s, frankly, what they are acting like. They can’t be adults to you or anyone not part of their ‘clique’, well, that’s their problem. Chances are, it will bite them at work eventually.
      Keep looking for another job if you really feel you cannot deal with this as part of your work culture/environment. Any rumor they spread should get laughed at, since they tend to be false and exaggerations, at that.

      1. Monstera*

        I wish that it would bite them back! The problem is that management is well aware of the problem (I was verbally told that this was happening by my boss when I started) and they don’t do anything about it. Both the managers are male, and the rest of the staff where the drama is happening are female, so it may be coming from a place of not wanting to get involved in what they see as “girl drama”.
        I’ve been hesitant to call it out myself in the moment because I’m afraid they’ll turn on me (even more than they already have). But I guess I can look at it as practice to be more assertive, which is something I’ve struggled with.

  200. BerkeleyFarm*

    My boss has expressed interest in doing some “team building” activities off site (paid participation). I’m interested in hearing about non-hokey possibilities for a smaller team (under 10) where two of the people aren’t able to do athletic type stuff (e.g. no paintball or bike rides).

    I heard “escape room” mentioned but I’m a bit leery as I work in IT Operations and trying to solve a problem that has a significant consequence on a deadline sounds a lot like some days at work.

    Many thanks!

    1. MissDisplaced*

      Maybe something artsy? Like Color Me Mine?
      Or things like museums, planetarium, arboretum or the zoo? Private behind the scenes tours of unique points of interest.

      You’d have to gauge whether your group skews artsy or more science interest, and if there is still some level of mobility like easy walking involved versus sitting and doing something.

      1. BerkeleyFarm*

        Thanks for the ideas! I had thought a cooking class but one of us follows a paleo diet and that would make it tougher to find even here in my Major Metro Area. Easy walking with the ability to sit occasionally is ok.

        The scientific-based idea is boss, we are all nerrrrrrrds.

    2. Analytical Tree Hugger*

      How about banding together to do a volunteer/community give back event? Since you said you’re all into science, maybe see if a local museum or science outreach event could use volunteers for some sort of an event?

  201. Workaholic*

    Office birthdays.
    My team at work handles birthdays by a sign up list. If you want to participate: you opt-in by providing your name and birthday. To opt out: do nothing. Person A receives a card and some sort of birthday treat to share with the team (cake, cookies, chips and salsa, wherever). It is then person A’s responsibility to provide for person B’s birthday, who is then in turn responsible for person C.

    If somebody is off on their birthday – they typically do it the day before or after.

    My birthday was a week ago. Crickets. On one hand: I’m an adult, whatever, it shouldn’t bother me. On the other hand: everyone else gets their birthday celebrated.

    I emailed my boss today and asked, since they skipped over my bday, am i responsible to handle the next persons bday? Or will the person before mine do so?

    It’s so messed up. Now I’ll feel bad if they don’t do anything, but also I’ll feel bad if they do, because now it’s only because my boss told them to.

    In my mind i feel this shouldn’t bother me. But it does.

    1. Construction Safety*

      Eh, we do birthdays by the month. Mine is the only one in April. Crickets.

      This is the same company that forgot to tell me the Christmas party was cancelled.

    2. Jane Smith*

      We do it like this in our work too.
      Did the person before you forget or were they off work or something? Or is it an oversight? This has happened to me before, I told them, and they did a cake the week after. I was embarrassed.

      I think you should tell your work mates that they missed your birthday! Not your boss. Decide do you want a cake, etc, or do you just not want them to forget next year and say so!

    3. WellRed*

      Who’s in charge of the list? They dropped the ball. I’d probably bring in chips and salsa for myself “to celebrate my birthday last week” and just smile.

    4. That Girl From Quinn's House*

      Well, since you’re supposed to provide for the next person’s birthday, you can just not do it. “Oh well no one got me anything for my birthday so I thought we weren’t doing it anymore?”

    5. only acting normal*

      Was the person responsible for your birthday out of office? Are they new and not clear how it works?
      When it happened to me, the person before me was using an old list, and the person after me ended up with two cards: one I bought, one they bought.

  202. StrayAdult*

    I guess this might be a common question, but I would like to ask the kind readers here for advice regarding how to identify a difficult/perfectionist boss in an interview.

    I recently work under a nightmare of a perfectionist boss, who cannot seem to trust other people. This person uses fear as motivator, exaggerates their own achievements/experience, never admit mistakes, constantly belittles our team members, and always tries to assert dominance (subtly or overtly) on other people. Too bad this person is also very sweet and charming on the outside, which fooled our team members during our job interviews. I have dealt with difficult people in my previous jobs, but never as a direct boss. I cannot seem to handle this one. I am so easily exploited and emotionally wrecked by my boss’s tactics, that I feel scarred for life. While the answer to my problem might be to stand up for myself, I am taking the easy way out by looking for a new job instead.

    So back to topic, how can I screen out this specific type of personality during an interview? What kind of questions can I ask that at least help me screen out the bosses with trust issues? I have been fooled once, and I am still watching upper management with way more experience than I do getting fooled by this person everyday.
    (I should note that I am not working in my native country, and while I have enough language skills to help me function in my job, subtle clues about specific word choices in an interview might not be easily picked up.)

    Thank you in advance for your thoughts.

    1. Reba*

      Unfortunately, I don’t think you really can, because managers are not likely self-aware enough to answer this kind of thing honestly or frankly — or at the very least, we could say that a manager and employees are going to see the same behaviors differently! Aliso. Has written before about why questions about management style aren’t usually revealing, for this reason.

      That said, you could ask about how the manager views performance and how she likes her teams to work. But your best bet is to talk with other people in your field about companies you’re considering.

      Good luck!

    2. Anon-Today*

      OMG are we coworkers?

      I stood up for myself and I got punished for it. Your boss sucks and will never change.

      You could screen out these bosses by leaving a period off of a sentence in your cover letter. My boss would never interview someone who did that.

    3. MissDisplaced*

      This comes from Liz Ryan. I don’t always agree with all of her advice about pain points, but she does have really good advice about hiring and being human in the workplace. You should check her out.
      Unfortunately, if the manager maintains a “front” or false face, it will be kind of hard to suss out the fact they are difficult and/or a bully. Bully bosses are good at hiding this or playing the victim themselves.

      I personally would ask something along the lines of “How would you manage a poor performer on your team?” or “How would you handle a situation where one of your employees made a mistake?” or “What you would do if an employee had a disagreement with you about a policy or way work was accomplished?” to see if you can get an idea of how they handle conflict.

      20 Interview Questions To Ask Your Next Boss
      1. I’d love to hear your story — how you got from the start of your career to the role you’re in right now.
      2. What are the biggest priorities for your department over the coming year? How will your new hire support your ability to reach those goals?
      3. Is this a newly-created position, or would I be replacing someone in this role? If so, has that person moved on inside the company, or what took place exactly to create this vacancy?
      4. What are the roles of the other folks in the department, and how large a group is it? What would my interaction with my teammates be like?
      5. Who are the internal and external clients for this role, and what does each of them require from the person in this position?
      6. What is the typical career path for a person in this role, and what is the time frame associated with that career path?
      7. What do you see as the highest priorities for your new hire over the next 12 months?
      8. What is the set of things that this new hire will take care of and resolve completely in the next 90 days such that you will say “Thank goodness I hired this person!”
      9. What do you see as the thorniest or most daunting challenge for your new hire as they begin the job?
      10. How do you communicate with your team members? Do you schedule one-on-one sit-down meetings, do you hold staff meetings, do you prefer to communicate via email, or what exactly?
      11. How will I be evaluated in this role? What are the principal metrics?
      12. What constitutes a workday here? What are the working hours, and what are your expectations around taking work home, staying late or being ‘reachable’ after hours?
      13. How much travel is built into this role, if any?
      14. How will your new hire be trained or learn the ropes in their new position?
      15. Can you please tell me a story that illustrates your management style?
      16. Can you please tell me a story that speaks to your corporate culture?
      17. How does your bonus plan work?
      18. I would love to see a copy of your employee handbook. Could you help me get a copy to read at home?
      19. Some of your team members seem to wear traditional business attire and others wear “business casual.” What are your thoughts about the dress code for your team?
      20. How will the arrival of your new hire make your job easier?

  203. Jane Smith*

    I hope I’m not too late for this thread. Any advice would be gladly received.

    I’ve been off with severe depression and anxiety this week. I have another week of annual leave planned then I’m going back to work (I hope).

    I had a week off last year and labelled it ‘stress’ which wasn’t entirely untrue although I was actually absent because of depression again.
    In my workplace, depression is counted as a disability and won’t come out of sick leave.

    I don’t want to tell my boss that I’ve been depressed. I know it will explain my quite long absences (and any future absences, although I am under the care of my doctor now so things should be better for me) but I fear that she’ll be overly concerned. What I mean by that is, put me on lighter duty, not allow me to do the things I’d like to get involved in in my work but have me still doing the things that I find onerous.

    Part of it is me worrying because ‘hello anxiety’! Another part of it is seeing how she’s reacted in the past to other people who were off. One guy went on a PIP after he almost had a heart attack and was off for months.

    What do I say? Do I just count it as sick leave (I still have to give a reason and I could say it’s a physical problem, which isn’t entirely untrue either, because depression has made me physically sick and need medical attention). Having it as sick leave still raises a flag because I’ve been off more than 12 days in the last year.
    I don’t know what to do.

    1. Buu*

      Can you tell HR and not your boss? Ideally you want legal protection for your time off, and if he finds out and starts acting odd you have a written record.

  204. Anon-Today*

    OMG are we coworkers?

    I stood up for myself and I got punished for it. Your boss sucks and will never change.

    You could screen out these bosses by leaving a period off of a sentence in your cover letter. My boss would never interview someone who did that.

  205. Kathlynn (Canada)*

    Late to the post, but I’ve two coworkers who just started and lied about dating each other. Both are supposed to be rehires. The thing is, they are dating and both working at my store. But my company has a “no employees at the same store can be related or dating” rule. So far my bosses haven’t done anything. And I’m finding myself upset by this, as several coworkers including myself have had family apply at my store and not gotten even considered for an interview for this reason. I even felt compelled to point out to previous management that I was related to my cousin, when they might not have known at first (different last names, and don’t resemble each other)
    I’m just not sure if I should make a big deal about this. And I feel like it would be my fault if one of them were to quit or be fired because of this. Especially since they are both here on visas and might not be able to afford to study without the job.

    1. WellRed*

      Nope! If it becomes a work problem, which it probably will, then you decide whether to bring up the impact that is having on the work.

      1. valentine*

        Why bring it up if you don’t want one of them to quit or be fired? What fourth option are you expecting?

          1. Observer*

            Nope. For one thing it’s clear that this is not the way this organization generally operates. For another, at this point it would be an issue of them having lied, which is generally an issue on its own.

  206. The cat's pajamas*

    I just found out that we’re hiring someone who works with a bunch of people I worked with at a previous job. They have been in upper management roles, in their current role for barely a year, and taking a step down to a senior individual contributor role. I know this happens for Reasons sometimes, but they aren’t connected to my connections on their team. Is this a red flag? I don’t know if they’ve given their notice, so waiting a bit to ask around. If I get bad vibes, should I give my boss a heads up or wait and see?

    (accidentally reposted above as a reply but want this to be a separate thread)

    1. only acting normal*

      Why would there be a red flag? Because they were briefly a senior manager and have applied for a non-management role? (That shouldn’t be a red flag; maybe they hated it, or sucked at managing). Or because of something else your connections have said?

  207. Anonyby*

    So the TL;DR of my week is that management (and one coworker, encouraged by management) sucks and I need to get out. (Coworker did something outrageous that SHOULD have gotten her fired, and local-but-not-direct-manager said something that made me go woooooooooooow and feel like I need to get out before his actions blow up in his face. And let’s not talk about my direct-but-elsewhere manager.)

    One of the problems I’m having is that I have no idea what search terms to even begin using to find potential jobs to apply for. I know I’m underpaid for my position in my company (and the company on a whole underpays compared to other companies in this industry in this area). I’m not wedded to staying in this industry (and would be quite happy to leave). However, the what-I-do of my job is actually something I enjoy a lot. There’s a lot of data entry, and managing commissions for ICs, while I’ve gotten mostly away from answering phones and greeting guests (things I’m glad to be away from).

    If I search “Data entry” in Indeed, I get a lot of entry level stuff and receptionist jobs that pay less than what I”m making now (and I’m hoping to get a pay increase, not a decrease). If I search accounting, pretty much everything wants a degree in accounting (mine’s in science) AND two years experience in accounting, which I don’t have. My job during holiday breaks in college was floating for a company where part of it was in the accounting office, but I have no one there to use as reference (and that was 9 years ago eeeep), and my current position is accounting-adjacent rather than in the accounting office itself, but is almost two years at this point.

    Any other suggestions for how to search/what to search for?

    1. Sam Foster*

      Commissions Analyst? Payroll Specialist (not great but closer)? Business Analyst in departments and companies that do what you want? Financial Analyst? Also start with companies you want to work at and look at all their jobs and learn what they call things.

    2. Annie’s mom*

      Try searching by industries, instead of job titles. So often, different places will call similar jobs different titles.

  208. Anonyby*

    And for the rubberneckers who enjoy stories of workplace drama…

    We’re part of a company that’s pretty much built on the work of ICs, so the only employees are managers/admins/HQ staff. At my office we have myself, Buri, Maude, Delia, and (now formerly) Rispah, plus the manager for this location. Rispah (used to) and I actually are part of a team in a classification that actually reports to a manager who’s based out of HQ, though we’re spread through various offices (mostly sitting in one of the ones we support). Buri, Maude, and Delia report directly to the location manager and are admins supporting this location only. I’ve been with the company the longest, and this location second-longest, and Buri’s been with this office the longest. Maude, the manager, and Delia have all been with the company less than a year in that order (Maude having been here about 6 months, and the most of the three).

    There have been lots of problems with Delia. She’s supposed to be Buri’s backup when Buri’s burried or on vacation, but refuses to help or even learn anything. Right from the first, she badgered IT for a second monitor (which is rare to get here for ANYONE). Then she started badgering them for a third to take home. IT put their foot down at that, saying in an email with Buri (who is their liason) and the manager CC’d that 1) she is not allowed to have a third company monitor, and 2) she is not allowed to bring ANY company monitor home.

    Middle of last week was Rispah’s last day. She did have a second monitor (and IT was nice enough to send her a BRAND NEW one as a second, in part because when she asked it was a “if you happen to have one, it would be nice” and MEANT it). Before she left, Delia came in and asked if she could have the second monitor. We shut it down FAST informing her NO, because I was moving to that desk and going to use it. (Note, this was AFTER IT’s email.) We then reiterated the plan to the manager.

    This week Buri left early one day and was going to be out the following day too. I went to the bathroom about 5 minutes after she left, and came back to find the monitor missing. Delia had taken it out to her car because “manager said she could take it”. She wasn’t expecting me to be so PISSED OFF about it though and brought it back the next day. Both Delia and the manager were acting like our conversations the previous week hadn’t happened at all. Nevermind what IT had said previously. (The incident was report to IT.)

    As for what the manager did… He started searching for interns without clearing it with HQ. Unfortunately for him, the clearance actually has to come from our grandparent company. This week, the day before the intern showed up, he told Buri and I that the grandparent company had said “no” to interns, but he was going to do it anyways and screw what grandparent company says. (He’s been aggressive when HQ teslls him things he doesn’t want to hear, but this is the most egregious instance yet.)

      1. Anonyby*

        Thanks! I was trying to come up with some good names, and that’s what came to mind!

        …now I’m planning on wearing my Keladry shirt to game tonight. :D

  209. Lala*

    Work raffle question. Won a prize was told by manager on Tues I could retrieve prize once a certain work task completed. Returned Fri, Sat and Sun and completed task, placed work under office door. Returned Fri to retrieve gift. He states it was re raffled to another person and said my work was not done timely enough. This is roughly 5 hrs of work. I said there was no time frame given to me just to retrieve prize once task completed. He says end of discussion. Another coworker got her prize re raffled for calling off sick with a doctor’s note. Another worker was given same instructions to finish a task and completed task and received gift. What can I do? This is $350 prize. Im way underpaid for my position we are short staffed and I do the work of 3 people. I can easily find another job and am currently looking. How exactly do I tell him how upset and unprofessional that is? How do I handle this? If its any help hes the ED in a nursing home.

    1. valentine*

      So there’s no HR to appeal to?

      This guy’s a cheat and a liar and he cheated and lied from the very beginning. You won a prize. You did not agree to do the work task order to receive a prize, so that was the first goalpost moved. He may as well tell you to do jumping jacks before he gives you your pay.

      Don’t tell him you’re upset. It’s possible he doesn’t care, wants you to be upset, or completely forgot the prizes were yours and the other persons and is lying because he thinks needless cruelty and cheating are better confessions (like the horse murderer).

      Instead, focus on how he’s moving the goalposts and treating people differently. Did the person who got her prize finish the work the same day? If not, in all cases, you followed the rules you were told, not the ones you didn’t know about (that he made up later because maybe he also lied about the re-raffling and is taking all the stuff home and/or selling it). Finally, tell him he’s cried wolf and people will be unlikely to enter future “raffles”. Bonus if you can get your colleagues on board and not participate in the raffles or decline to do the work needed to collect.

    2. Luna*

      Preferably let loose when it’s the exit interview or something similar. Tell him that you don’t care for his (professional) attitude, that reraffling prizes already earned and setting extra tasks to get them is disgusting, and that you are glad to be leaving this place. This sounds like the type of bridge you want to burn.

  211. Luna*

    Should I inform my big boss that her seeing my ‘negative attitude’ (saying, “Still holding on” as an answer to “How are you?”, when I really am holding on because I am close to bursting out in tears) as something comical is disgusting because said attitude is coming from severe depression? I’m guessing no because it’s been a few days, but it really irks me — she already talked to me previously as if I was a little child, and I was gonna think it might have been just awkward tension between us.

    And I don’t really want to tell her that I am suffering from depression because I don’t really think it’s her business, and I don’t want it to sound like an excuse. (I am on medication to help me deal with the chemical issues caused by it, so I’m not leaving this completely untreated.)

    1. valentine*

      People who expect a rote answer can be quite taken aback, as though they asked you what you’d like for lunch and you said dirt. Your answer may have seemed at best like gallows humor and at worst like an invitation to an impromptu therapy session.

      So. You can’t trust her to respond the way you want (and I’m not sure what that is, since you don’t want to tell her the reason behind your answer, and that’s the right call), so keep things superficial. Say you’re fine, if that’s what she expects, because you don’t want her dragging it out by interrogating or criticizing an “okay” or “just fine.”

      If you can, maybe take a few days off or at least shorten your workdays so you can get some distance and shore yourself up.

      1. Luna*

        I know that my answer might have sounded bad, but I am the type of person who really doesn’t care much for polite small talk — if you really don’t care about an honest answer to ‘how are you’, I would prefer the question to not be asked. Just a ‘hello’ or ‘good morning’ when we meet is fine. If there is something to discuss, we can get right down to that.

        I don’t think I can take a few days off. The hotel I work at has only opened recently and I, as most of the staff, are new. We are still trying to fix the chaotic things and getting things going, which is overall working fine… but I have had to take days off (unrelated to depression) or leave early, so I don’t think I can ask. I am going to see a doctor (due to knee problems) by next week, to see if I can physically keep performing the job, and it will determine how things keep going there. I don’t know what will happen, if he says I cannot do that job or require certain accomodations — just in case, I am throwing my application out to some jobs, in case the news ends up that I must leave the job. Either on my own or because I am incapable of doing it.

        1. WellRed*

          How are you IS the equivalent of hello or good morning to many people. Not sure it’s fair to expect your reply was taken as anything other than a joke. I would have.

        2. Rainy*

          “How are you” isn’t polite small talk, it’s the natural ebb and flow of greetings and getting set for the day.

          Yes, people typically expect a reply along the lines of “TGIF amirite” or “Love that sun!” or “I’m fine, thanks, how are you”, but it’s just the script.

          Also, if you “don’t care much for polite small talk”, that’s great when you’re with people that also don’t prefer to engage in it, but in many situations, if you refuse to chitchat for 20 seconds about the weather or how great Fridays are, you don’t look like a sincere and serious person, you look like a jerk who won’t say the bare minimum to someone who’s greeting you.

          There’s also a political aspect to this, which is that if your big boss likes to ask how people are and you refuse to answer on the grounds that it’s small talk, you are using up some credit that you might have preferred to spend later over something that mattered, but you are chipping away at it daily because you can’t stoop to say “fine, thanks; you?” to your boss.

    2. LGC*

      I am so sorry she’s treating you like that.

      I kind of agree with valentine where…honestly, she probably doesn’t realize you’re in a major depressive episode right now. I know if I heard someone saying “still holding on,” I wouldn’t assume that they were really struggling unless I had other information. I know that intent matters less than impact, but she might not be intentionally malicious.

      So…if you can, let her know separately from the greeting that you haven’t been feeling well lately, so that’s why you’re saying that (if your behavior has changed). You don’t have to drop the D word at all, I don’t think.

      Wishing you the best and hopefully you feel better soon.

  212. Morgan*

    {{VENTING & SEEKING ADVICE}}

    I’ve been on my job for a little over a year and it isn’t a fit. I stayed and really tried to give things a chance, but it isn’t working. The VP I support is difficult to work for – nobody wanted to work for him. Two potential candidates withdrew when he landed the role. He is unorganized, doesn’t handle stress well and doesn’t delegate. But becomes snippy and mean when he’s taken on too much. When I try to meet with him, he cancels, sends emails/texts while I am trying to discuss things and allows others to interrupt meeting. When I do 10 things right and one wrong, he focuses on the wrong. I can count on one hand the number of times he’s said “thank you”. I’ve tried talking to him about my concerns, but the conversation gets turned into what I am doing wrong or how he has such an important job.

    I am not claiming to be perfect, but I work hard and it doesn’t seem to be valued. The company itself doesn’t treat their administrative support well. This role is a promotion for me and has me wondering if I really want to be here. I believe I can find better and have started looking.

    1. valentine*

      You don’t want to be there. I hope your search bears fruit soon.

      You might read the thread(s) on saying thank you. I dislike being thanked in writing and I only email thanks to acknowledge receipt or if I have something else to say. I don’t want to send extra emails. So if you handed me something in person, I’d say thanks (and I’m fine with that in reverse), but if you emailed it or I found it on my desk, I wouldn’t say anything unless it was some huge thing like, “Thanks for getting those 30 mailings out in the last hour before pickup.”

      Focus on respect and more money for your excellent work, not words that are useless if your boss isn’t providing those two.

      1. Morgan*

        No I don’t want to be there anymore. I become apprehensive the day before because I don’t know what his attitude will be the next day. I’ve started looking for another job already.

  213. Morgan*

    I’ve been on my job for a little over a year and it isn’t a fit. I stayed and really tried to give things a chance, but it isn’t working. The VP I support is difficult to work for – nobody wanted to work for him. Two potential candidates withdrew when he landed the role. He is unorganized, doesn’t handle stress well and doesn’t delegate. But becomes snippy and mean when he’s taken on too much. When I try to meet with him, he cancels, sends emails/texts while I am trying to discuss things and allows others to interrupt meeting. When I do 10 things right and one wrong, he focuses on the wrong. I can count on one hand the number of times he’s said “thank you”. I’ve tried talking to him about my concerns, but the conversation gets turned into what I am doing wrong or how he has such an important job.

    I am not claiming to be perfect, but I work hard and it doesn’t seem to be valued. The company itself doesn’t treat their administrative support well. This role is a promotion for me and has me wondering if I really want to be here. I believe I can find better and have started looking.

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