open thread – May 31-June 1, 2019

by Alison Green on May 31, 2019

It’s the Friday open thread! The comment section on this post is open for discussion with other readers on anything work-related that you want to talk about. If you want an answer from me, emailing me is still your best bet*, but this is a chance to talk to other readers.

* If you submitted a question to me recently, please do not repost it here, as it may be in my queue to answer.

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  1. Cambridge Comma*

    Does anyone know of a way to manage multiple versions of your resume? I’m currently applying and am highlighting different parts of my current job description to match the vacancy notice in each version I write. Does any online tool exist that would show me all my past versions of each point so that I could pick the closest one and start with that?
    Any other great online tools for resumes?

    1. Dragoning*

      I think a lot of people have a “full” master resume they cut down to emphasize certain things for various job applications.

      Honestly, I keep all my files on my computer and sort them by date, so I can see which resumes were created when. And I add job titles/descriptions to the file names because that kind of thing can be helpful when it makes it to a hiring manager (as well as my full legal name), so I have some idea of what the resume was created for if I want to poke at that one specifically.

      1. merp*

        I do both of these too. Just a word doc labeled “full version” or something (it’s way too long) and then save as a new copy with the job title and company.

      2. T3k*

        This. I was a grapic designer and still have the programs (before Adobe switched to the monthly subscription) and I use InDesign, with one master file with all my jobs listed and then individual resumes labeled for their particular field.

      3. anonymoushiker*

        I do this! I learned the hard way to save as a template because I sometimes forget and save over the older version. Whoops.

      4. Jessica Fletcher*

        I do this, too. I also have a Master References doc, so I have everyone who could be a reference, and I can select however many for each application.

    2. Phoenix Programmer*

      Not sure about online but I keep a “master” resume that’s like 10 pages of all my accomplishments. Then I keep copies of each job app in it’s own folder by year that are whittled down.

    3. league.*

      It would be awesome if there were a tool for that. Not being that savvy, what I do is work from a master resume that includes every possible detail – I would never send out this resume anywhere. But then I “save as” from that one, renaming it for the specific position, and just delete all the irrelevant detail. This sounds rather clunky and I’m hoping someone else has a better solution, but it’s what I do.

      1. Cambridge Comma*

        Do you paste stuff back into the master version when you are done? I don’t take the time to do this, but I would need to if it was going to be a true madter version

        1. LSC*

          That wouldn’t be necessary – you open the master version, immediately “save as” a new file, and then the changes will be made to the new one. The master version remains unchanged.

          1. Autumnheart*

            Another option would be to put the master version in a ZIP file, so that whenever you click on it, it extracts a new copy. Then you won’t accidentally edit the master.

          2. Kuddel Daddeldu*

            If you are using Word or Open/LibreOffice Writer, save your master as a template (File/Save As…) – this way, when you open it, the software will automatically ask you to save under a new name.

        2. Grace*

          If you had one called “Full version” and then did save-as to create a duplicate version called “Teapots Inc version” which you then edited, you’d still have your master version to go back to for your next application.

    4. Blue Bunny*

      If you’re asking how to do a side-by-side document comparison, Acrobat Pro can do that. Online options include Draftable and Diffchecker.

        1. Boba Feta*

          I’m curious how to do this, practically speaking. I’d love to be able to make a computer program do a document comparison so I can literally see where the language is different across similar documents, so I can effectively update my Master with the latest versions of my achievements, etc. The trouble I have is that my “Master” file is now waaaaay out of date as I have inevitably tweaked or refined my phrasing in the versions that go out to each job, but I then don’t remember to go back and insert the new-better-snappier bullet points back into my Master file. So my Master has old language, and the better versions are scattered across however-many individual-job resumes…

          1. Dragoning*

            In MS Word, it’s under “review” and “Compare” and you just load the two documents you want to compare.

            1. Boba Feta*

              OMG YOU HAVE CHANGED MY LIFE.

              Sorry to yell but damn. This is revolutionary. I shall not dwell on why I never knew of its existence, and shall simply revel in my new-found power. Mwah. HaHa.

              1. CL*

                Redlining (the commonly used name for marking edits) is commonly used in some fields, where you have to show what edits were made. Having the program do it is a freaking lifesaver. If anyone out there still uses WordPerfect it also compares and marks up documents.

    5. Zephy*

      I have a “master” resume in my Google drive, with a name like “Zephy R. Song Resume 2019.” I save a copy, rename it to “Zephy R. Song Resume – Teapot Coordinator Teapots R Us 2019,” then start fiddling with it.

      1. Anonymous Educator*

        Same here. I have a résumé source in Google Drive and make a copy and modify for each position.

    6. Overeducated*

      I used to keep several different versions of my resume for jobs in different sectors – e.g. a small nonprofit resume, a university resume, and a government agency resume – since the jobs in those sectors tended to have enough similarity to each other that I’d want to highlight similar experiences.

    7. That Girl From Quinn's House*

      This is low-tech, but I save each job application (cover letter, resume, etc.,) in its own subfolder, and print out the resume and put it in a binder. It’s a lot easier to flip through papers to see what’s different, than to be clicking between 10 different Word documents.

      1. Boba Feta*

        Same. I am full old-school analog, so I print out the job ad and mark up that with notes to help draft the letter and resume. Then when I’ve finalized the versions that get submitted, I print out the final version of the letter and resume and keep everything sorted using plastic document sleeves in a three-ring binder. This has been SUPER helpful when applying to similar jobs for which I can recycle some of my best examples: I just flip flip flip through my binder and use the printed materials as a springboard to type up the latest letter/ resume version.

    8. Mockingjay*

      I always put the company and date in the filename:

      Mockingjay Resume FastFood Apr 2018
      Mockingjay Resume GreatJob May 2019
      Mockingjay CoverLtr GreatJob May 2019

      I also use folders for storage: one for each job – GreatJob May 2019 – that contains the resume I submitted, the cover letter, and a copy (PDF, screenshot) of the job posting. (This last item is critical – if a company takes down the posting, you will still know what you applied for. Also you can check to see if you’ve previously applied – “didn’t I apply to that a year ago?”)

      I will add the job title to filenames if it differs from my usual title.

    9. Cambridge Comma*

      I have tried the master version as well as just looking at all the versions but I was dreaming of a tool that had multiple versions of each bullet in the job description. For example, I’m an editor. But some vacancy notices are looking for speed, some mention many projects concurrently, some mention quality. So I write a slightly different version each time that is obviously true but with a slightly different angle. Is this normal?
      It’s almost quicker to start afresh each time but I don’t like the increased error potential for doing that (currently on maternity leave with two babies so the sleep deprivation is reducing my ability to not make stupid mistakes).

      1. Cambridge Comma*

        So my dream tool would have headings for each job I’d saved there, then a menu with headings e.g. project management. I’d click on project management and it would bring up all the bullets I’d ever written for that job containing those words. I’d pick one, then move to the next heading. The next step would be my CV, for tinkering with and of course every chance would automatically add a new version to my bullet collection. It’s been seven years since I applied to anything and I was hoping that there might be some great apps in the meantime!

    10. Anonymousaurus Rex*

      I just create a new resume copy for every job I apply to and name it with either the position or company name (e.g. Anonymousaurus Rex Resume-ABC Company- May 2019.docx) . Then I can cut and paste different bullets as needed from previous versions to tailor for new applications. I just try to remember things like, x position was more research focused, y position enphasized data analysis, and then I can pull the relevant bullets.

    11. Anax*

      If you’re fairly comfortable with computers, Git will absolutely do that.

      It’s free; you can use it online with Github (also free) or locally on your computer; it will store every version, and you can use the “blame” command to track every change to every individual line of your resume. You can also use branches to have different versions of your resume for different types of job, if that’s useful to you, and every version can have a message describing what job opening this was for, without needing to name every resume version with a different filename.

      It looks a little bit intimidating, but it’s really not bad to learn. I recommend the (also free) Sourcetree application if you’re not a super computer-y person, which puts everything in an easier visual interface.

      You’ll need to copy/paste the actual text in and out – just saving a Word document is likely to be annoying when you compare text, since Word is doing all kinds of formatting stuff behind the scenes. But it sounds like you’re doing that already.

      2. Malthusian Optimist*

        re: MS Word behind-the-scenes formatting yeah (no I did not put a tab there and I’d prefer to keep a consistent pt. size thx).
        I often just paste it in as plain text and then re-format from scratch, that also makes me really look and consider what it is I’m doing and what I want emphasized.

    12. Jamie March*

      I had a generic resume and cover letter that I’d use to apply to jobs I wasn’t *super* excited about, but might work out. (I was unemployed and trying to apply to at least one job a day, and there were plenty of days and jobs that did not inspire the energy required for a custom resume/cover letter.) If a job looked particularly awesome, I’d make a custom resume and/or cover letter. I had a google doc where I info-dumped accomplishments, scenarios, experiences, etc. from current jobs as I thought about them. I used that doc for customizing resumes and cover letters and to prepare for interviews. I kept all the data in chronological order–kind of a career highlights reel. I’d review it while waiting for interviews to begin, just to keep everything fresh in my mind. It was useful for customizing resumes and cover letters, but extremely useful for interview prep.

      As far as tools, I just used Google Drive. Docs for most things and then a spreadsheet to keep track of when I applied to jobs, what resume/cover letter version I used, and dates of contact. Not very high tech, but it worked for me.

      For what it’s worth, the generic cover letter/resume ended resulted in the job I ended up taking. It’s hard to tell from a job description if something is really a good fit. I job I thought I’d really love (and for which I spent a lot of time on a customized cover letter) ended up being really not what I was looking for, and I didn’t know that until I went in for an interview. I had a pretty good overall call back rate, but I credit Alison and this site for that since the generic version of my resume and cover letter were still pretty solid.

    13. careergal*

      When I apply for a job, I create a folder for it and keep everything (resume, cover letter, reference, job posting) in there. I end up with folders for every position and a separate folder for my master resume and other general materials.

      Pro-tip-if you send an employer your resume as an attachment or upload it, please save it with some form of your name as the file name. Many employers tell me that it is frustrating to have 18 resumes all named after the job title and/or organization. It saves them time if they don’t have to rename it and it makes you look good.

      1. Akcipitrokulo*

        Yes! Please do this!

        Also put your name and position fir which you’re applying in subject line of an email.

    14. Close Bracket*

      I made a folder for each application with the date I applied, the company, and the job title in the name. I saved a version of the resume I used in that folder with the same name and “resume” tacked on the end. I also saved the cover letter and and job description. I maintained a master list in Excel. It’s not elegant, but it worked well for me!

    15. Volunteer Enforcer*

      I use a system on One drive. I have folders for applications submitted and that I got interviews for. The application materials then get called the job title and organisation name.

    16. h.cowl*

      The learning curve is high but git is great for this. If you have a software engineer buddy maybe ask them for a tutorial.

    17. Work to live*

      I create a new folder in my “Jobs” folder for every application I send out. That way if I look at a job posting for XYZ company and think it’s like a similar job I’ve applied to at ABC company I can just go to the resume and cover letter I used for ABC company and use that as a starting point. The last time I was applying to jobs I ended up sending out nearly 120 and found this method very useful.

    18. MoopySwarpet*

      I could see myself creating a spreadsheet that simulates the “choose your own adventure” style it sounds like you’re wanting.

      Something like:

      Company | Job Title | Task | Task variations | notes | use
      Teapots, Inc | ___ | ___ | ___ |___ | x
      ___ | Design Associate | ___ | ___ |___ | x
      ___ | Junior Designer | ___ | ___ |___ | ___
      ___ | Entry Level Designer | ___ | ___ |___ | ___
      [I think I would add these as I used them for resumes. Of course, being sure the title is a close enough match it will be recognizable to whoever is asked if that’s what you did at Teaposts, Inc.]
      ___ | ___ | Design teapots | ___ | the most basic description | ___
      ___ | ___ | ___ | design whimsy teapots | good for art jobs | ___
      ___ | ___ | ___ | design detailed teapots | good for desk jobs | x

      So on and so forth. The idea being that your bullet point variations are lumped together and easy to either choose from one you’ve used before or insert a line and add a new one with a note for the type/specific job it was used for. The “use” column would be where you mark which items you want to use for this resume. Then filter to show only the items with an x in the use column, copy/paste to plaint text program (to remove the spreadsheet formatting), copy/paste to Word and format.

    19. MintLavendar*

      I LOVE this resume maker. It’s free and flexible and is something that should have existed a long time ago. The only flaw is that it defaults to having the Headshot section on (I think because it was made by someone in Spain, and i know it’s still expected to have a portrait on your resume in a lot of non-US contexts?)

      https://www.resumemaker.online/

    20. Kimmybear*

      SharePoint will give you version history. I think it’s 500 versions and you can restore/compare from those past versions. May seem like overkill but if you consider the document sharing ability with family members, it may not be that bad an idea.

  2. My strongest experience is outdated*

    How should you frame it when your most relevant experience is 5+ years old?? I’m applying for a job for which my best resume-boosters are all 5-10 years old. (For example, I’m applying to be a Rice Sculptor, but my last rice sculpting role was 7 years ago.) Should I just assume that the hiring manager won’t get too hung up on dates? Should I talk up the experience heavily in my cover letter even though it’s kind of outdated?

    1. vw*

      Can you have a section for “Rice Sculpting Experience” and another section for “Other experience.”? Then put the “Rice Sculpting Experience” at the top and the other at the bottom.

      1. My strongest experience is outdated*

        I’ve always been hesitant about functional resumes, but this might be worth experimenting with…

        1. vw*

          Oh I wasn’t suggesting a functional resume! Something like this:

          Rice Sculpting Experience
          Minute Rice (2010-2015)
          – accomplishment
          – accomplishment
          – accomplishment
          Uncle Ben’s Rice (2005-2010)
          – accomplishment
          – accomplishment
          – accomplishment

          Other Experience
          Llama Groomer (2015-Present)
          – accomplishment
          – accomplishment
          – accomplishment
          Kitten Consultant (Contract 2012)
          – accomplishment
          – accomplishment
          – accomplishment

          1. Aspiring Chicken Lady*

            This is what I suggest to folks too. Just get all the good stuff up front.

            As a person who is a little bit blind to numbers, I wouldn’t even care that things were a bit out of order, as long as they were grouped.

            2. Working Hypothesis*

              I have actually been a kitten consultant! It was a volunteer position at an animal shelter, although they do usually have a limited number of paid roles which include the same type of work. The job was to get to know all the cats in our shelter, so that when somebody came in to ask about adopting a cat we could sit down with them and find out what they wanted in an animal: were they looking for a cat who was especially cuddly, or especially playful, or who would do their own thing and let you do yours, just being company around the place? Did they have kids or other animals whom it would need to get along with? How much of the day would it be expected to be alone? That sort of stuff. Then we’d introduce them to the specific cats who best fit the description of what they were looking for, and try to make a match that would result in a happy adoption.

      2. CL*

        This is what I did when I returned to working after being a stay at home mom/running a side gig. I changed up the order of the experience, based on what I wanted to highlight for the position. I got a part-time job out of it and then two years later went full-time.

        I would highlight specific skills on my cover letter, like “I have more than 20 years of experience in teapot design,” without stating that that experience was more than 5 years before. The timing and how I managed to stay on top of current skills was something I would address in interviews.

    2. Anonymous Educator*

      Keep your résumé reverse chronological, but then frame it in the cover letter. You can highlight the 5-10–year old experience. You can also maybe tie in how the most recent 5 years might also be relevant (but maybe less directly obviously relevant), and why you’re looking to get back into rice sculpting now.

      1. Legal Beagle*

        If you keep it chronological, you can also beef up the bullet points underneath the most relevant experience, and cut down on the less-relevant newer experience. So it draws the focus where you want without changing the timeline of the resume.

    3. The Man, Becky Lynch*

      It’s pretty typical to leave a certain position, do something different but with similar skill set required and then go back to the previous position. Can you explain the gap? That’s all they’re going to want to know is why you stopped rice sculpting and how your newer positions tie the same skills.

      I took a break from my original higher role and took an EA role to detox from a decade of craziness. Nobody flinched or asked about why I downgraded or did what I did, they were just like “You have great experience, it’s not something you ‘forget’ or anything like that. Unless you went from rice sculpting to goat yoga instruction or something, then that may be a “How do these two things tie together exactly and how do we know your skills are extra rusty?” It also depends on the level they’re looking for, if they don’t need an expert, then it’s not as big of deal if you are a little rusty and can knock that off over time.

      I wouldn’t assume anything but just be prepared for questions!

    5. Boba Feta*

      For some of the jobs to which I’m applying I’m in a very similar boat (Well, my directly relevant experience – doing that exact kind of work – for some of them is actually more like 15 years old. AH, career changes…)

      I’ve been including explicit statements in my letters about my current pursuit of a career change and excitement to return to X work. I feel like that provides a good segue into explaining my prior experience and how it’s prepared me for this role, or whatever.

      I also do what was suggested about organizing the resume using “Relevant Work Experience” and “Other Work Experience” sections that allow the older, relevant stuff to appear up top but doesn’t omit all the other things I’ve been doing since. True, it is not strictly reverse chronologically and does present a bit of a time-hopper situation, but if managers are looking for experience first, and timeliness second, I rationalize that it’s getting the job done.

  3. CameronT*

    How should you address a cover letter when you know the hiring manager personally? It feels too informal to write “Dear Sally:” when I know that an HR person might screen it first. But it feels too formal to write “Dear Ms. Smithbottom:” when my acquaintance will eventually be the one to read it.

    1. CatCat*

      I’d address it however it feels most appropriate for the actual recipient. That someone in between might see it as well doesn’t seem like a big deal. I doubt anyone is going to get hung up on a polite salutation here regardless of whether it is Dear Sally or Dear Ms. Smithbottom.

        1. Jamie March*

          Lol. That made me think of Jane Eyre and now I kind of want to see a cover letter that starts “Dear Reader.”

    3. I edit everything*

      Can you submit it directly to the hiring manager/your acquaintance? Then the less formal address will be more natural. Conversely, you could drop a reference to how you know each other in your opening paragraph, to clue HR in. Something like, “Dear Sally: It was great to see you at [business function] last week. As we discussed, I’m submitting my application for…”

    4. Anonymous Educator*

      I wouldn’t overthink it. If you really do know Sally, maybe you can even give her a heads-up that you’re applying and get her take on how you should address the cover letter?

      I’ve never worked in HR, but I would assume that they don’t get too hung up on the greeting part, unless it’s something highly offensive.

      1. Joielle*

        The one time I’ve tossed an application based on the cover letter greeting was when someone used “Dear Mr. Hiring Manager.” The actual hiring manager was a woman (which could be easily determined on our website), all three of the staffers reviewing resumes were women, and even the admin receiving the application emails was a woman (clear from the name in the posting), so absolutely no reason to assume the hiring manager would be a man. And a completely unnecessary salutation to boot. No thank you.

        1. Anonymous Educator*

          Are you replying to my comment? Nowhere in there did I indicate you should assume the gender of the hiring manager.

          1. Elizabeth Proctor*

            Uh, Joielle isn’t suggesting you did. They are just giving an example of a time when the greeting was offensive enough to toss out an application.

          2. Here Today...*

            I think Joielle was responding to the second part of your response, “I’ve never worked in HR, but I would assume that they don’t get too hung up on the greeting part, unless it’s something highly offensive,” by providing an example confirming that statement.

      2. MoopySwarpet*

        The only time I care much about the greeting is when it’s “Dear Some Other Company” . . . O_o Then I’m on high alert for other signs of poor attention to detail. Those kinds of errors usually have random cover letters, resumes with objectives for different jobs than we’re filling, non-relevant experience, and multiple typos.

    5. Officious Intermeddler*

      You could try “Dear Ms. Smithbottom” typewritten, and then strike that with a pen and add a handwritten “Dear Sally.” This is a little bit of an analog solution, but we do this in legal practice all of the time when we’re writing to people who should have a professional salutation in a letter, but who we know well.

      2. Legal Beagle*

        Presumably the cover letter is being emailed, though, so you’d have to print it out, write on it, and then scan it. Also, I’m a lawyer and I’ve never seen this before. I would find it very odd; it looks like you made a mistake but couldn’t be bothered to actually fix it in the document.

        2. CanCan*

          I’ve seen my former boss (lawyer) do that on bills to clients. Note that he’s about 70 years old now. The idea is that the assistant prints out the letter, and *of course* the assistant wouldn’t presume to call this person Sally, – but then the lawyer *actually* bothers to read the letter (rather than just scanning through the $ amounts), and *even* wastes his precious time on writing a personal salutation.

          I thought my boss was a genius when I saw him do that. Had no idea it was at least somewhat common.

          Don’t do that on a cover letter, though!!

    6. Joielle*

      I recently did this, and I just went with “dear hiring manager.” Maybe awkward, idk, but it turned out fine.

    7. LCH*

      i think HR only screens resumes, not cover letters so i’d just address it to the person you know as familiarly as you feel comfortable.

    8. LadyByTheLake*

      I write “Dear Sally” all the time in cover letters. I’m in a field where we tend to know each other and it would come across as unspeakably stilted to write “Dear Ms Smithbottom” when it is someone I know well. No one bats an eyelash.

    9. Lily Rowan*

      For me, Dear Sally is fine from someone I know. However, when I’ve gotten the equivalent of Dear Ms. Smithbottom, I just kind of chuckle. It doesn’t make me mad or anything!

    10. vw*

      I would write something like “Dear Sally and Hiring Team” in the salutation. I like the phrase “hiring team” because it’s friendly and acknowledges the team based aspect of this.

    11. sometimeswhy*

      I got a “Dear Hiring Team,” this month. It struck me as an elegant way around attempting to name or gender the recipients as well as an acknowledgement that it might be more than just the hiring manager or HR gatekeeper who was involved in the process.

    12. Madge*

      I’d err towards being professional and addressing the letter as though you don’t know the hiring manager.

      1. rmw1982*

        Same here. For instance, I had worked with hiring managers as peers before, but still addressed it as “Dear Mr. Warbleworth” or “Dear Ms. Ferguson.” I don’t think they cared one way or another, but HR and recruiting did. If you’re not sure, addressing a cover letter as more formal instead of casual is probably the better way to go.

  4. Phoenix Programmer*

    Resume questions!

    I am poking the market for the first time in a long while. So many questions.

    1. Is it worth doing a summary and if yes what is the most helpful here?

    2. How to represent major projects on a resume. My latest role was project driven.

    3. I am considering management roles, is it worthwhile including my fast food crew trainer stuff from college?

    4. Awards and honorary items. I served on a board of directors and am a fulbright scholar but both are now 9 years old. Worth including or drop?

    Thanks so much for the tips!!!! I’ve read Alison’s advice and have an accomplishment driven resume but am fumbling these newer items a bit.

    1. Anonymous Educator*

      1. I’ve never discarded or been particularly impressed by the presence of a summary.

      2. As bullet points with what the projects were and what you accomplished.

      3. How long ago was that?

      4. If you have room at the bottom, and if they’re relevant to the position you’re applying to.

      1. Phoenix Programmer*

        Can you expand on #2 some. Are you saying they should have their own sub bullets points like:
        Current Job
        Implemented a new system A
        Accomp 1
        Accomp 2
        Implemented new system B

        1. Anonymous Educator*

          I don’t think there need to be sub–bullet points. I would just have a longer sentence saying the project and what you accomplished in it. I guess you could do sub–bullet points if you wanted to.

    2. MissGirl*

      I use a summary and think of it as a short (four or five sentences) cover letter. I highlight what in my resume qualifies me most for the position. This works for me because most of the jobs I apply for don’t request or even allow you to upload cover letter.

    3. Susan K*

      Was the fast food crew trainer stuff a management position? If so, then I would recommend including it when you apply for management roles. Where I work, when they hire for management roles, they give points for ANY management experience, including fast food and retail (neither of which has any relevance to our industry). I wouldn’t use a lot of space on that, but at least list the job so it is clear you have management experience.

    4. The Man, Becky Lynch*

      Regarding 3, I would be leery of adding this as management experience, it’s a little out of touch and not in line with managing a team of programmers or office folks in general. I flinch at saying that but it’s one of the things as a hiring manager myself and others I’ve worked with think of as “too much of a stretch” when you’re looking into being a manager. Fast food training isn’t on par with leading a crew on major projects, the industries and standards are so much different. Instead focus on why you’re management material and ready to make the step up, which is what your projects are going to show them!

      Awards and honorary items are great if you need to fill a page but if you have enough job experience to boast of, leave them off if they don’t fit, since they are rather old at this stage.

    5. Workerbee*

      I do a one-line “Profile” at the top to help anchor what I do in the eyes of the hiring manager. I’ve been getting interviews, so it’s at least not detracting (I assume). I tailor it based on the needs of the job I’m going for.

    6. CAA*

      1. A good summary is relevant to the job you’re applying for. You can describe some personal traits or relate your experience to the new job. You don’t want to write “CPA with 25 years experience creating accurate tax returns” if you’re applying to manage software developers (this is a real-life example). It’s also short — 3 or 4 sentences at most.

      2. It depends if you have the same accomplishments on all the projects or if you want to show that you accomplished different things for each one. If they’re all really different, you can use indentation to list the projects under the employer as sub-headings and then bullet the accomplishments under each project. If the accomplishments are common to multiple projects, then list the accomplishments as bullet points under the employer, and create one additional bullet for “Projects” with a one-liner for each one under that.

      3. It depends how close you are to the job. If it fits there naturally, then yes, include it. If you have to add an “Other Experience” section to get it on there, then it should only go if it’s closely related to management, i.e. if you participated in hiring or termination decisions; or if the job you’re applying for is somewhere like the corporate HQ for a fast-food brand.

      4. Include the Fulbright on one line in your education section. That’s impressive, and it doesn’t lengthen the resume too much. I’d include the board experience under “Other Experience”.

      1. Former Employee*

        I looked up the Fulbright and found a list of some very distinguished people.

        I imagine that something like the Fulbright is pretty much a forever item on a resume.

    7. Errol*

      1. I do use a summary, but I also kind of don’t use a summary. I call it ‘additional skills’ and list relevant things that aren’t good enough to be a career highlight like software experience (specific ERP / SAP programs or Microsoft excel etc) , things like I was in accounting for a few years before changing my career path so I’ve got skills X, Y, Z , basically anything that’s a bonus but not really all that relevant to the job.

    8. Keener*

      I wouldn’t do a summary section. I am also in a role that is very project based. On the first page of my resume I have a typical work experience section which includes my past jobs and accomplishments (managed a team, proposal writing, overall financial results, etc.). Then on my second page I have a Project Highlights section where I include various projects with bullets of accomplishments below them.

      I’ve now got a long list of projects so it is really easy to pick and choose the ones that are most relevant to the job posting and create a customized resume.

  5. Need a policy/lobbying refresh*

    People who work in federal policy/advocacy in DC – help me get back up to speed! I used to work in policy, but I’ve been in a different role for 7 years and I’ve lost touch. I am interviewing for a Policy Specialist position at a small non-profit, and need to remind myself of lobbying best practices. Can you give me some tips on some resources/websites/apps I should review? Is CongressPlus still popular? What websites give the best updates on pending legislation?

    1. Hello!*

      Hi! Not in DC but I am a lobbyist in a Midwest state. Good luck! It is a weird field, but a worthwhile one. At least for my state, I was able to look back at all of my organizations positions for several years prior to my interview and it was really helpful. Not sure what industry your non-profit is (mine is long-term care), but I found it really helpful to look at other similar organizations etc.

    2. EBW*

      Hey there! Quorum is all the rage now – everything from staff contacts to bill tracking and literally every document that comes from a member of Congress’ website lives there. But it’s expensive & may be out of reach for the small nonprofit! GovTrack and CQ are other similar resources.

      For lobbying guidelines – Bolder Advocacy has great resources: https://www.bolderadvocacy.org/resource/public-charities-can-lobby-guidelines-for-501c3-public-charities-2/

      I’ve been in the sector for my whole career & recently just hired so a few tips:
      – Demonstrate command of *and* interest in the policy subject matter. The latter is more important, as an eager employee can learn anything.
      – Don’t be afraid to offer helpful advice to the nonprofit during your interview or follow up. For example, “I browsed your website policy section and I noticed you’re missing XX. I would be excited about the opportunity to XX.”
      – Be up to speed on insider knowledge re: members of Congress. You should be able to explain why, for instance, a member who is in cycle may be moving to the end or center of a political spectrum or pushing for something that would usually be outside their lane.

      Best of luck!

    3. Jessica Fletcher*

      I think you can just Google “federal lobbying best practices” or similar. If it’s a nonprofit, Boulder Advocacy has good info on rules specific to nonprofits, and things that are new since you were last in the field. (If you @ a legislator, or retweet an @ to a legislator, you’re directly lobbying them! Like posting @RepSmith on social media.) Could be helpful even if not a nonprofit.

      It’s not something you can cram, but spend some time every day becoming familiar.

      I no longer work in advocacy, but I’m still in a similar-ish field, I guess. I didn’t work on the fed level, but you can look up bills on the House or Senate websites. I also used to/still get a ton of newsletters from orgs that work in topic areas relevant to my work. Following on social media is good, too.

      Idk if you can register for text updates on bills at the federal level. You can at my state level.

    4. Ryan Howard’s White Suit*

      I haven’t done advocacy for years, but for a former job I had to track legislation. I really liked Legi-scan, and I know my colleagues in DC used it, too. It’s consistently up to date (like updated same day) and even includes committee hearing times if the bill has a hearing.

    5. Legal Beagle*

      When I worked at a large non-profit, we used CQ Roll Call. When I worked at a small non-profit, we couldn’t afford anything, so I used congress.gov for bill tracking.

      If it’s a position where you’ll be doing direct lobbying, I would also talk about soft skills! Knowledge of the issues is important, but you can learn that. What’s more elusive – and crucial – is being able to build relationships, establish credibility, engage stakeholders, talk across the aisle, and just have good political instincts.

    6. Cap Hiller*

      I work on the Hill now – key relationships OR key policy acumen (or both) are your best bet – and neither you can master through a website. But, most orgs that do advocacy here have an “advocacy” part of their website – so I would look at those main issues and then if you get coffee with people in town, ask them if they know the latest on those specific issues

    7. Cap Hiller*

      And on a practical reply, honestly I think Politico is a good go-to general “what’s happening” and of course has more info on the policy issues they cover

  6. Blue Bunny*

    This week in Workplace Wellness Initiatives That Miss the Mark:

    Are you a fan of the Blood Mobile? Do you like nothing more than having your life’s fluids literally sucked out of you at your place of employment? Then you’re going to LOVE…

    the Mammogram Mobile! That’s right, folks! Get half naked and make boob pancakes from the lack of comfort and lack of privacy of your own company parking lot!

    J EFFING C, Company.

    1. Lucette Kensack*

      This… sounds good to me. We all get mammograms, they should be fully covered under most insurance, and this makes it super convenient. I use the mammogram-mobile st my own doctor’s office (my clinic doesn’t have its own imaging, but they bring in the mobile unit a few times a year and it’s easier for me to go there than to trek to a different facility).

      1. Lucette Kensack*

        I should have said: “We all SHOULD get mammograms.” Obviously, not everyone does. But this feels like a step in the direction of helping everyone with breasts get the care they need.

        1. Clisby*

          And it’s not like getting a mammogram in a clinic/hospital is some luxurious spa-day experience. It’s going to be uncomfortable too.

          1. Aspiring Chicken Lady*

            My mammogram clinic is set up exactly like a luxurious spa-day experience. It’s a standalone place with soft lighting and comfy couches and big tropical fish and optional chair massage and a little stand for jewelry you can buy.

            I hate it when they’re quick.

            1. Yvette*

              Mine is almost that posh. No jewelry stand or chair massage (or maybe now, I am over-due). Anyway you can tell that it is a place for women run by women. They have spray deodorant and lotion in baskets for you to use after (for men who may not know most mammo places tell you not to use either beforehand).

              1. Yvette*

                As long as the company isn’t insisting that you use it or listing the names of people who do / don’t or putting your images up on display or any of the other weirdly inappropriate things some companies do.

              2. That Girl From Quinn's House*

                My mammogram place is also done to be comfortable (plush bathrobes, snacks, drinks, extra toiletries). But the hospital that runs it put it in the Cancer Center, and it has a pink-ribbon theme with script wall art like “strong” “brave” “survivor” all over the place.

                This is not comforting.

        2. atalanta0jess*

          Not ALL! People with boobs who are over 45. :) (Or have other risk factors, or blah blah blah, decide with your doctor).

        3. Mari M*

          I have small breasts that actually may be better served by ultrasound — getting them to pancake will be ridonkulous. So, much as I would like to get a mammogram, God didn’t endow me with enough to squish! But we all should attend to our breast health, regardless of age and gender; know what lumps and bumps belong where!

    2. Corky's wife Bonnie*

      Actually, I really happen to like the Mammogram Mobile! Its affiliated with the top cancer center in my area, and I don’t have to make up any time by going somewhere for the appointment, very convenient! Windows are blacked out and only takes a few minutes.

    3. Panda*

      My company has both of those, plus a dentist that comes in a bus. It’s actually pretty cool (I don’t do the blood mobile or the mammogram on site).

      1. Annie Dumpling*

        I think this is one of those things that falls into “everyone is different, not everything suits everybody”
        Some will love the quick availability. But for others, mammograms are not quick and can be very painful.
        It is good to offer multiple options, as not everything will suit every body. This is not so much a “Workplace Wellness Initiatives That Miss the Mark” as much as it should be (and I hope it is) a “One of Several Options for this Workplace Wellness Initiative”

    4. Dragoning*

      I don’t mind this at all. It’s not as if it’s in front of your boss or anything, right?

      And I like the blood drives, too.

      1. Patty Mayonnaise*

        Currently there are blood shortages in several major cities, and one reason is because work-sponsored drives have gone down. Those drives are super important!

    5. Zephy*

      Wooooow. I just…wow. The right way to support women’s health is to offer health insurance that covers things like that, not…whatever this is.

      1. OlympiasEpiriot*

        I agree with this. I think a lot of people like the “mobile” approach because it can be extremely difficult to access this kind of health care in the US. I haven’t seen this done in any other major industrialized country.

        1. Jane*

          In the UK the routine NHS breast screening for 50-70 year olds is often offered in a mobile unit, so that it can take place conviniently close to patients’ homes, without needing to travel to a regional hospital. You get an appointment letter telling you when and where, and then show up at the local supermarket car park or similar!

          1. Grace*

            It’s especially important in villages and small towns – there are some villages in my area that have one bus per day to my town (30,000 people and has an urgent care centre but no hospital) and you would then have to take *another* bus to get to the city ten miles down the road to reach the hospital. And these places are all incredibly close together!

            I understand the US is much more spread out and has even less public transport – I can see why mobile blood drives are a thing there, although they aren’t here, and this seems much in the same vein. (I mean, personally, I wouldn’t class NHSBT setting up in the local village hall as a mobile blood drive. We don’t have vans as the US does, we just have regular donation sessions set up in community spaces.)

            1. Michaela Westen*

              Outside the big cities, America is completely car-dependent. In some places there might be a bus occasionally.
              The town I grew up in – population ~200,000 – had buses that ran east-west from 9-5 on weekdays. There were no buses going north-south. And no trains, trolleys, or other transit.

          2. OlympiasEpiriot*

            That’s not through work. I didn’t word the sentence properly; I meant the “mobile unit comes to the office and the HR division can point to how great the company is to the workers”.

        2. Japananon*

          This kind of “doctor on a bus that comes to your workplace” happens all the time in Japan, especially in rural areas, for what it’s worth.

      2. CTT*

        But it is covered by insurance? At least in my office it is. The idea behind it is that this makes getting an appointment easier and harder to make an excuse not to.

        If your argument is “you should give people more flexible time off so they can make medical appointments,” then that is something.

        1. higheredrefugee*

          I do work in an industry that is super flexible about time off for things like this but I’d take advantage of this because (a) I need that flexibility to help my aging parents, (b) I could schedule it and not need to drive 60 minutes round trip, and (c) would love to be able to offer that for my very remote colleagues who are jealous that the drive is only 60 minutes round trip to the nearest facility, much less the nearest covered facility. Even if you have the flexibility, if you’re taking care of others, have a chronic condition, or just don’t love the idea of driving all over creation, this is another alternative that could work for you.

      3. The Man, Becky Lynch*

        Insurance in the US has to cover preventative care, annuals and mammograms are included in that. So I’m not sure what you’re talking about?

        Insurances encourage you to do that now because they have seen that screening saves more money for them than late detection. So it’s probably the insurance company saying “Do this and we’ll drop your rates!”

      4. stefanielaine*

        Yeah this isn’t instead of insurance. It’s a way for busy people to not have to take an entire day off work to get necessary preventive care. It’s a convenience, not a requirement, so if you don’t want to use it, ignore it. Pretty easy.

      5. Yvette*

        Zephy, I think this is to make it more convenient. Many people would need to take a large chunk of time off work for this, what with travel time to and back plus appointment time.

      6. Bunny Girl*

        Mammograms are generally covered under health insurance as a preventive service so there is no copay/cost sharing for those services. So, if the company offers health insurance, it is usually covered. The mobile mammogram van is actually highly valued by many employees. I have never seen it mandated or a list of names given to management. Everyone of a certain age “should” have a mammogram, but compliance with this nationally are less than 45% for those covered by insurance. As long as the employer is not mandating the test or gathering data on who did/did not and results, this is a great way to increase the utilization of the benefit.

      7. Anonforthis*

        I’ve had jobs where the services are covered by insurance and the mobile providers are in-network providers, so it makes it super convenient. Bonus points for not having to take PTO to go to an appointment (my employer didn’t make us clock out or anything for it – we could just go out, do our thing, and come back).

        1. Paquita*

          Same here. We get an email telling us not to park in X location for the vehicle. Sign up through HR and fill out the form. Go at the appointed time, get the mammogram, go back to work. <20 minutes. We kinda know who in our work group is going because we let each other know if we will be away from our desk that long. Blood drives too.

    6. dramallama*

      I’d file that under 1st world problems– ’cause I would love that. I haven’t had a mammogram in a dangerously long time, because I either didn’t have the insurance or (now) the job sucks away all the time and energy I have for just finding a doctor.

      1. OhNo*

        See, that’s what irritates me most about it. Like, they could give you adequate health coverage and sufficient time off to ensure you can make all your preventative care appointments, but nope! Better to have a mobile van that stops by every couple of months so you don’t have to take time away from Precious, Precious Work to take care of your own dang health.

        I dunno, it just feels like a very insincere way of signalling that you care about your employees without having to, you know, actually care about your employees.

        1. Lucette Kensack*

          I mean, I have health insurance that covers mammograms with no co-pay and a flexible, 40-hour-a-week schedule… and it’s still easier for me to go to a mobile unit outside my office than it is to leave work in the middle of the day, drive over to my clinic, and have my images taken there.

          1. angrywithnumbers*

            Even if I had a ton of extra vacation time I would rather do it this way real quick during the work day than burn a vacation day on it.

          2. A Person*

            Agree, if this is completely optional and there’s no pressure to do it, AND employees are provided with insurance coverage and time off to go to their provider of choice for this service if they’d rather do that, I see this as a good thing.

            It’s only a bad thing if they do it the way some (not all) employers do the blood drive busses, where there are participation contest and prizes that lead to peer pressure to participate.

            No one should to have to explain why they are not allowed to give blood/ can’t get on the boob bus to random coworkers.

            1. Paquita*

              I have one coworker who can’t use the boob bus as she has some known (non cancerous) issues. Something that shows up as ‘spots that need to be checked out NOW!’ but are really something else harmless. She has to go to the place that is already familiar with her ‘girls’.

          3. Danger: GUMPTION AHEAD*

            Yep. For me it has nothing to do with cost or schedule and everything to do with being able to do something easily. Sure, I could flex my schedule or take sick leave to get a mammogram, no problem, but having the mammogram come to me is awesome and lets me save my flexing and sick leave for when I really need it.

            1. R.D*

              Exactly! I don’t need to think or plan or pick up the phone and make a phone call. I don’t need to figure out where in the hospital the imaging department is. I don’t need to do anything but walk down stairs at the scheduled time.

              It’s not like you are wondering the parking lot naked. You are in the equivalent of a small room with a closed door with only medical staff. It’s not more uncomfortable than going to the clinic or hospital, at least for me.

        2. ThatGirl*

          As others have said, currently the law in the US is that your insurance has to cover preventive care including mammograms – this is just a convenient way for people to get one. Similar to flu shots at work. Now, if the company provided this instead of health insurance, that would be a different problem.

          1. OhNo*

            Yeah, but do they provide insurance that covers the right providers, not just the right services?

            Here’s a personal example I’ve run into: I’m a trans dude. Does the insurance my company provides allow me to go to one of the few trans-sensitive providers in my city? Or does it limit me to a certain network of providers? If I’m limited to a small network of providers, are they trained on gender affirming care for trans people? Are the people in the mammogram-mobile trained on gender affirming care? How do I even find out, aside from just showing up and seeing how they treat me?

            Convenience is great, but I wish more companies had good back-up options for people like me. I’d much rather have good coverage that allows me to choose my provider, and adequate time off to go see them. But many companies (mine included, unfortunately) find one convenient option that works for ~80% of people and say, “Eh, good enough!”

            1. The Man, Becky Lynch*

              This is impossible for a company to know, this is an insurance issue not your company’s. So you’re really off base here.

              I cannot research the provider networks that intensely when we’re shopping for insurance, unless someone specifically tells me “I use this doctor, is it in network”? Then you run into an issue like I did. I made sure a person’s long time family doctor was in network and we signed the contract for the year…then there was a switch up and guess what, nope that doctor’s office is now out of office due to some internal shakeups. How in the heck would that ever be laid at the feet of your employer? I did everything I could…this is the problem with insurance not your employer.

              1. OhNo*

                I think you’re missing the point. Employers can make decisions about what kind of plans they offer, or offer multiple plans, or offer FSAs, or additional services, or, or, or… There are lots of different solutions or workarounds, and companies don’t usually offer more than one or two.

                My point is that if companies really, truly cared about their employees, they’d find ways to accommodate everyone’s needs. But they don’t, because as I said, they usually find one option that works for most people and figure it’s good enough.

                For my specific example, my company’s insurance isn’t bad. It actually is on a network that includes a trans-friendly clinic I can go to. But if it didn’t, there are things they could do to make it easier on me to get the care I need, including offering other insurance options, PTO specifically for medical appointments, and so on.

                1. ket*

                  I’ll push back on this a little bit. Depending on the employer & the market, employers *can’t* do a lot of that. There may not be many insurance providers in the geographic area and it may be cost-prohibitive, and it requires a lot of employers to add “finding insurance companies that are sensitive to x in their provider networks” to the list of things, because people with auto-immune diseases, people from smaller cultural groups with particular attitudes toward allopathic medicine, etc all have their own concerns.

                  I think what you’re really arguing for is a system that eliminates rival insurance plans entirely — whether single-payer, socialized, or fee-for-service. A single-payer system, for instance, would let you see approximately anyone; same with a pure fee-for-service system.

                  I’m a bit touchy about this for several reasons: I’ve been an “employer” now once and it was a nightmare. I just wanted to pay someone to do a thing for 4 months, and suddenly I’m in this morass of tax forms and withholding and Medicare and Social Security and state ID numbers and federal ID numbers and the person I employed for 4 months contacting me at tax time and asking why TurboTax won’t let them submit electronically. And that’s for $1000 in one quarter for babysitting. I think all this rigmarole of choosing *insurance companies* rather than *health care* is bad for America — it’s just a 30% wealth extraction tax on employers, employees, and the government. You don’t want good insurance most, you want *good care*.

                2. Lilysparrow*

                  I question your statement that caring = meeting everyone’s needs.

                  I just don’t think “meet everyone’s needs” is an achievable goal in any endeavor, ever, anywhere. Particularly when you are factoring in emotional needs. Which are real, of course, but also subjective, unique, and change over time.

                3. OhNo*

                  @ket: Yeah, I was in the not-so-glorious position of helping my family’s small business get a health insurance program started last year, so I’m passingly familiar with some of the issues that employers can run into when putting such a program together. And you’re certainly right that company location, size, revenue, and other things would put big restrictions on what a company is able to provide. The things I propose would be very difficult, if not impossible, for some businesses, especially small businesses, to do.

                  I just wish that more companies that are able did them, and that setting up alternatives for people who need special consideration was commonplace. Personally, I think it should be factored into the “costs of doing business” just like setting up regular health/dental insurance programs, company matching to retirement accounts, and other benefits that companies offer. Seems like it would be a very good way to build loyalty among your employees.

            2. Michaela Westen*

              I always get coverage that allows me to choose my providers because I have a lot of allergies, types of allergies that aren’t taught in med school, and the reason I made it this far is because I’ve learned to listen to my body and what works over a doctor who can’t see beyond his textbooks and cares less.
              I have to have a doctor who respects my experience and works with me, not at me. I am literally better off with no medical care than a doctor who doesn’t hear and respect what I say.
              If a job didn’t offer an option where I could choose my doctors, I’d get a better job. Easy for me to say since I live in a big city, right? That’s one of the reasons I moved here.

        3. Not So NewReader*

          Yeah, I am not comfy with this one. It reads like “hurry up and get back to work”. Nice. (not.)

          I wonder how well these mobile machines are maintained. After talking to someone who works on this type of machine, I would be cautious.

          1. OhNo*

            Yeah, I can’t help but feel like this is a not-so-subtle hint to spend more time at work. Not unlike some of the big tech companies’ on-site laundry services, visiting hairdressers, nap pods, or what-have-you.

            1. Michaela Westen*

              Do tech companies still do that? I remember that from the 90’s.
              The message is, “we want you to live at work!”

          2. Danger: GUMPTION AHEAD*

            As well as any other machine, at least here in AZ. You need the same inspections to operate as a fixed clinic. All of the ones here are run by the big hospital systems, the university hospitals, or big cancer centers (e.g. Mayo).

    7. LaDeeDa*

      I am all for this. My company does it, we also have hearing and vision testing, and screenings for melanoma. Anything that makes it easier and more convenient for people to have early and frequent screenings will save more lives, with less invasive treatments- saving the individual and the company money.

    9. CatCat*

      Actually, I’d be more likely to go get the exam if it showed up at my work. I assume the actual exams are private.

      1. Fortitude Jones*

        They are. Every company I’ve worked for in the last five years does this, and all of the women who go love it due to the privacy and the convenience – they can just pop on over to the van and get it done during their lunch break.

      2. BadWolf*

        Indeed. I probably only get a flu shot because they bring in a flu shot clinic into work.

        1. Bears Beets Battlestar*

          Me too! They make it convenient so people will get one, and it works for me.

        2. Danger: GUMPTION AHEAD*

          Me too. It is also the only reason I get my BP, glucose, cholesterol, etc. tested. The onsite stuff has been my stand-in for primary care since I haven’t had any reason to go to the doctor in 15ish (maybe longer?) years aside from occupational health checks for a couple of jobs.

    10. Overeducated*

      I actually like workplace blood drives…I don’t have to go to extra trouble to find a place to give blood so it helps me give more regularly, and frankly being able to lie down and relax for 20 minutes at work is kind of amazing. (Yes, I know it’s really pathetic to feel like blood drives are the most relaxing part of the workday, WHATEVER.) Mammogram Mobile maybe less relaxing, but better than taking leave to drive 30 minutes the opposite direction for an appointment….

      My mom REALLY resented it after she got laid off and still got bimonthly calls asking her to sign up for the company blood drives, though.

    11. DivineMissL*

      I’m OK with the Mammo-mobile, if bringing the mammo to the women means more women will get screened.
      In the interest of equality, though, I do think we need a Prostate-mobile as well.

      1. Nanc*

        Prostrate mobile clinics have been around for a long time. I remember listening to a nurse being interviewed on NPR in the 1990s. She said it was a great job but the van tended to smell like butt by the end of the day.

        I imagine Mammogram-vans came into being when digital imaging technology made it possible to get the equipment into vans/buses. Yay technology!

      2. Danger: GUMPTION AHEAD*

        They have one at my job. It alternates months with the mammogram clinic

    12. Nye*

      That sounds really convenient, and like a great option to offer to employees! I’m assuming you can opt in if interested, and just ignore it if you’re not (like the bloodmobile). Seems like a great way to make it easier for folks to get important regular screenings.

    13. kittymommy*

      I like the idea. My company covers things like this at 100% so I get mine done at the GYN, but for those who either aren’t established with anyone, their dr doesn’t have an imaging machine on site, has difficulty getting in with a lab, or have transportation issues this is a great idea. Anything to make it easier for people to get needed care is a good thing in my book.

    14. CatCat*

      Just another thought. Making actual health services conveniently available is a good thing. Sounds like the company is hitting the mark.

      This would only miss the mark if on top of it, they included things like:
      – The Tit Olympics: Prizes for the work team that gets the most women to have mammograms.
      – The Real Squeeze: Bosses pressuring employees to go use the service.
      – The Wall o’ Boobery: A board showing who has had the mammograms and who hasn’t.

    15. Alice*

      The only way this would be bad would be if they stopped covering mammograms at your doctor’s office.

    16. londonedit*

      Yeah…I know it’s different because I’m in the UK and we get this sort of thing under the NHS, but the NHS still has trouble convincing people to go for these routine screenings (they’re scared; they don’t have time to visit their GP or can’t get a convenient appointment; it’s something they know they should do but never seem to get round to it, etc) and they now have trucks that tour supermarket car parks for mammogram screening and – since quite recently – lung cancer screening too. I think for some people it would make a real difference just being able to pop out for 10 minutes of their workday and have the test done, rather than having to go through the process of scheduling an appointment with their doctor.

      1. Clisby*

        I’m in the US and have good insurance – but I would still like the convenience of something like this. I’m retired now – while I was working I never had problems getting time off for appointments, but to do everything involved in a complete physical could include: 2 visits to my doctor, one to draw blood for tests and one for exam; a different place for a mammogram; a different place for an eye exam; a different place for a hearing test … It would have been really nice to say, “OK, I know that sometime this year the mammogram-mobile and the flu shot people will come around – I’ll just wait for them.”

      2. paperpusher*

        Yes! I get lots of time off (I have about 450 hours of sick leave banked, and am allowed to take 7 hours for a yearly dental and medical visit without using any leave) and I STILL don’t go to the doctor. It’s the logistics, the guilt of using up a doctor’s valuable time, the sense that I won’t find out I’m sick if I don’t get checked out (there is some truth in that too).

        I started finally getting flu shots when there were signs directing me to the pharmacist’s counter on the way to the grocery store checkout. People are fundamentally lazy.

      3. Grace*

        I love the cervical screening ads the NHS has been running these last few months, as well, reminding you to go to your appointment. It’s really normalising it. It’s a couple of years to go before I start getting called for them, but I do feel like it’s less stressful now.

        The main reason I see women – and men – not taking up their regular screenings: Oh, I know I don’t need it, I would just be wasting the nurses’ time, I’ll let someone else have the appointment, I don’t want to be a hassle… What is it about free-at-the-point-of-need healthcare that makes us all want to not waste the doctors’ time with ‘frivolous’ things? Guilty as charged, by the way, as is everyone in my family.

        1. Mari M*

          “What is it about free-at-the-point-of-need healthcare that makes us all want to not waste the doctors’ time with ‘frivolous’ things?”

          Providers who shame free-at-the-point people. I’m on Medicaid and there is now an eye clinic that I will not use because someone who works there makes a point of saying, “The TAXPAYERS are paying for your glasses.” Buddy, I know. I already have a complex about it.

    17. Veryanon*

      It’s not great, but I’ve worked for several companies that offered this, and people always seemed to like it. YMMV, though.

    18. Interplanet Janet*

      Oh, man, I would LOVE that!

      My company has somebody come and offer flu shots in the fall, and the building we work in does a blood drive a couple of times a year. As long as they’re not, like, taking pictures to post on the company blog or anything, I think it’s kind of thoughtful.

      1. CTT*

        GOD, I love flu shots at work. I got very spoiled by it and then went to grad school and just having to walk over to the student health center seemed like such a trial.

        1. ThatGirl*

          I love flu shotst at work too. It takes 5 minutes and I don’t have to wait around at CVS/Target/Walgreens or make an appointment at the dr’s office.

          1. ThatGirl*

            Gah of course I spot the typo right after I hit submit and it’s too late to fix :)

    19. karaiz*

      I would totally love this. My work-provided insurance covers them, I have plenty of flextime, and I’m still three months late for my latest because it’s such a pain in the neck to drive to the doctor’s office, wait for an appointment, blah blah blah.

      Everyone’s different, I guess!

    20. MissGirl*

      This is also really helpful for employees who may not have a car or other transportation options. Sometimes clinics aren’t easy to get to via public transportation. People in rural areas could also benefit from this.

      I can’t speak for other people but I’ve been procrastinating a physical even though I have the insurance because it feels like a hassle. Having a doctor right next door would get me in.

    21. The Man, Becky Lynch*

      Yeah, it may sound hokey in ways but these mobile stations are great for people who are “too busy” to get their mammograms or who “forget” about them. Anything that encourages and enables women to be screened for breast cancer is A-OK in my book.

      If they’re rounding you all up and demanding it, then that’s over the top but just having the truck out there and saying “Hey everyone, this is available for you today from 9am-12pm if you’re interested!” that’s just like having a food truck out front for all I’m concerned.

      1. AvonLady Barksdale*

        Yup. I think it’s great. When I go for a mammogram I have to take PTO for a few hours so I can get there, adjust for a wait, get the exam, etc. It’s a pain, and the breast care center I like is not close to the office but is right near my house. I would LOVE the convenience of a mobile mammogram!

    22. Tiffany In Houston*

      When I was a contractor and had substandard insurance, I was able to get a discounted mammogram via the Boob Mobile. Otherwise I wouldn’t have gotten one at all. So I think it’s great.

      I don’t think it misses the mark at all.

    23. Librarian of SHIELD*

      Dude. If a radiology team was willing to show up at my office and save me the time and hassle of scheduling an appointment and taking off work and parking at the hospital (which is a nightmare where I live), I’m all for it. Bring on the mammogram-mobile.

    25. Camellia*

      We call it the mammo-van! The vehicle itself is set up very well for privacy. Behind the driver’s seat is a little intake table. Then next is an enclosed changing room that has two doors – one into the main body of the van and one into the imaging room. Both have inside locks and the one into the imaging room also has a lock on their side so you can’t just open their door and go in while someone else is in there. Then you wait in the dressing room until the imaging room person unlocks their door and knocks to let you know you can enter. Then you unlock your side of the door and go in and get it done. Then you go back in, lock yourself back in, dress and leave out the entrance into the van. In fact, it’s much more private than the regular mammogram facility where you have to put on the gown and then walk around everywhere in it.

      I should add, there’s two dressing rooms, one on each side of the aisle, so they can keep a steady stream of people going in and out of the imaging room. It works great!

      Our company does this, the provider is covered by our insurance, you call to make your appointment, and it only takes about 15 minutes in-and-out. It’s fantastic!

    26. Seeking Second Childhood*

      Sign me up. I drive 35 miles one way for work, and trying to onto a screener’s schedule at end of day but still get out before my daughter gets home from school has been brutal.
      There’s a lot of other people at this plant that would love it. We’re the only office for miles around out in the ‘burbs with no bus service, and a lot of our employees come in on commuter vans & carpools from NearbyCity where they don’t need to own a car.
      But put it away from the recreation center next door so we don’t get the teenager jokes.

    27. Tina Belcher's Less Cool Sister*

      What’s wrong with the Blood Mobile? Blood donors are sorely needed, and this is a way to remove barriers to access the donation point. Unless there is undue pressure for people to donate against their wishes (which the receiving organization wouldn’t allow) I literally don’t see a problem with this whatsoever.

      1. Another Manic Monday*

        I wish that I could give blood. I used to donate on a regular basis until they decided that my European blood wasn’t good enough for Americans.

        1. I Wrote This in the Bathroom*

          Ohhh, they tried doing that to me when I gave last year, for the first time in my American life. Turned out that I was either born in a country that wasn’t on their no-go list, or left it early enough, or both. If I’d had the money to have traveled to Western Europe in the last 10-15 years, I’d have been SOL I guess.

          The reason why I hadn’t tried giving blood until last year was that, my then-husband tried once, about 20 years ago, soon after we moved to the US, and received a letter in the mail a few weeks later informing him that based on where he was born (iirc), he could have traces of hepatitis, so they discarded his blood just to be safe. He never had hepatitis in his life. He never gave blood again and neither did I, until I decided to try last year and somehow was approved. He and I were born in completely different parts of the home country, thousands of miles from each other, so that’s probably why I got through and he didn’t. I’m not a fan of a lot of the restrictions around donating blood btw.

        2. Former Employee*

          I think it might have something to do with Mad Cow Disease aka: Bovine spongiform encephalopathy (BSE).

      2. WS*

        If the Blood Mobile is at a really big company, it might be fine, but it came to my smaller company (about 200 people overall, arranged into close-knit departments of about 30-40 people) and it was really obvious who was donating, even without the sticker, and who hadn’t. And then the rumour started up that the one openly gay man was HIV+, even though being a man who had sex with men at all was enough to disqualify him; I personally got a “helpful” talk from another fat employee that I would fit in their comfy chair no problem, when I’m actually an excluded donor for the kind of cancer I had.

        Fortunately, there were enough private complaints that the company didn’t do it again six months later.

    28. Jaid*

      I’d use it. I don’t care if people know that I’m getting the girls looked at. As long as it’s clean, the equipment reliable, and the folks qualified, I’d be first in line.

    29. ClumsyCharisma*

      We offer this a couple times a year and the appointments go fast so if you don’t see the email the day it is sent out there is a chance you won’t get one.
      I am still a few years away from having my first but I can guarantee you I’ll be more likely to get one in the parking lot than I would be having to make an appointment and go even though my boss does not care if I leave for a few hours and doesn’t make me use my PTO and I have great insurance.
      Same reason I get a flu shot when they are here because there is no way I would take the time to go get one elsewhere. Although I think both are important I know I wouldn’t prioritize it even though I should.

    30. I Wrote This in the Bathroom*

      I… actually want that!

      Then again, at my workplace, if you take a Dr appointment, you need to either take a personal day (or half-day) or make up the missed time to the minute. Any time I save by not driving to the hospital and back, not sitting in a waiting room, etc, is the time I do not have to stay late to put back in. Sounds pretty exciting to me.

    31. Sharon*

      This sounds good to me. However, I don’t like the Blood Mobile. I worked at a company in the past that had regular visits from the Blood Mobile and employees were STRONGLY encouraged to donate. I have a medical condition that prevents me from giving blood and every time the Blood Mobile visited I was made to feel bad that I wasn’t participating. Then I felt the need to explain that I had a medical condition, which I had no desire to share with anyone. Repeat this cycle every couple of months….

    32. Dusty Bunny*

      The Boob Bus comes to my place of work, and has for several years now. I don’t think anyone likes getting a mammogram, but this is extremely convenient and efficient, compared to going downtown to the doctor’s office. I found the Boob Bus staff to be professional & discreet, and the bus is outfitted with changing rooms/diagnostic room similar to the brick & mortar office.

      I realize it is disconcerting the first time you see the Boob Bus on site, but think pink, Blue Bunny. An ounce of prevention awaits right outside your door. It will not get more convenient than that.

    33. Delta Delta*

      Would 100% visit a mammogram truck. Odds actually also somehow increase if it’s also parked next to a taco truck.

    34. ...*

      Can other people see the mammogram procedure? I would assume it’s at a minimum in a private area or behind and opaque partition. I think this is great? It’s bringing a healthy option to you and is it free?? I’m sorry but I think this is wonderful. But then again I have a family member dying from breast cancer that wasn’t detected early enough.

    35. Sam*

      I’m with you – this is super weird. What if I just got one a month ago – am I going to be judged because I’m not heading to parking lot B? I don’t need to explain this to my employer. If I’m using their insurance, I have the option to go somewhere.

      Also, I go to a place that’s pretty nice (spa setting). Hard pass on the boob-mobile.

    36. Moocowcat*

      This sounds like a good thing to me. My city has mobile health everything. Blood donations, prostate exams, dental, basic health checks, safe works.
      Maybe I’m missing something?

    37. Megasaurusus*

      Our local mammogram bus program stopped and I was really sad to see it go. It was much more convenient to get the yearly done at our health fair than make an appointment and take time off of work.
      The rational for stopping the service was that it was in brought about when mammograms were harder to obtain in semi-rural communities and our medical community had grown to offer a lot of variety. Which is true, but I haven’t bothered to schedule a mammogram since the bus stopped coming to the health fair because it’s so ridiculously hard to schedule preventative care appointments.

    38. stitchinthyme*

      My first mammogram was in one of those. I don’t see what’s wrong with it.

    39. KarenK*

      I get my mammograms at work, but then I work at a hospital! Super convenient. Not quite the spa treatment, but is it right downstairs!

      1. CatMintCat*

        I find the blood drives problematic because I am, and probably always will be, ineligible to donate blood. Two reasons: an excluded medical condition and I lived in England during the exclusion period for “Mad Cow Disease” and I don’t think the Red Cross is going to close either exclusion soon. It’s irritating having to explain that to every new crop of co-workers (donating blood is a big thing at my workplace and new young people jump on the culture happily).

        It’s a great thing to do, but I can’t do it. Please accept my “I’m sorry, I can’t” without a lot of questions.

        Mobile mammogram? I’d be all over that idea.

        1. I Wrote This in the Bathroom*

          When I gave last year, I was beyond shocked and confused when the list of exclusions they gave me to fill out to confirm that I did not have any of them, contained “male who had sex with another male in the last 6 (or 12, I forget) months” and “I had sex with a male who had sex with another male in the last 6-12-whatever months”. Like… It’s 2019 and we are going to turn down happily married wholesome couples because of an outdated restriction that probably didn’t make a lot of sense even when it was first introduced (which I assume was 30-40 years ago?) It really upset me. Not enough to turn around and walk out, but close.

          1. I Wrote This in the Bathroom*

            Forgot to add, I cannot imagine *that* coming up in a workplace whenever a bloodmobile shows up. “Hey boss, why aren’t you giving blood like the rest of us?” Ugh, ugh, ugh.

          2. dunstvangeet*

            That actually was the updated one. It used to be that they excluded for life any male who had sex with another male.

        2. FoxyDog*

          This. Although at my work I’m fortunate that nobody has bothered my about it, but there’s always the potential.

    40. Flash Bristow*

      I like the idea; I started giving blood when the bloodmobile showed up in my uni carpark. Not sure mammogram are due yet but I know I’m late with my smear due to schedule. Wish I could get it done more handily! Reminders like that would be ok surely? I’d’ve just got it done if not for other health issues
      Is it just odd because mammogram tend to apply to women, whereas blood donation isn’t so focused on gender? Or acknowledge that we have naughty bits hidden away? Everyone has breasts after all.

      Just a thought, apols for clumsy language but I’m falling to sleep …

    41. Sylvan*

      Sounds okay to me? I know it’s something I should stay on top of, but it’s a pain in the ass and I’d hate to use PTO on it. I’d probably go to a mobile if there were one around here.

    42. Slartibartfast*

      My company drives the booby bus, but it typically visits care homes and senior living complexes.

    43. Lujessmin*

      Gee, your company is trying to look after your health. How rude!

      I liked giving blood at work – an hour away from your desk and nobody could say anything about it.

    44. The Other Dawn*

      I would absolutely love a mammogram mobile. I moved a few years ago and the facility I like to go to has locations only in my old geographic area, which means going on a Saturday–which are always booked far ahead–and driving 45+ minutes each way. I would love to not have to do that. Could I go somewhere around here? Sure, but the places up here are in the hospitals and are way busier than going to the regular place.

  7. Susan K*

    I’m not going to try to change this because I’m sure I wouldn’t get anywhere with it, but I am wondering whether I’m getting offended over nothing or if this is legitimately annoying.

    My company (an industrial facility) recently started a safety campaign that is all about being safe for your children’s sake. The walls of the hallways are plastered with larger-than-life, 6-foot-high Fatheads (wall decals) of employees’ children with safety captions like, “Work safe grandpa, I love you!” or “Don’t forget to wear your safety gear, daddy!” At the entrance to the facility, there are signs that say, “Work safe — someone’s waiting for you at home!” (The poor grammar is not even my complaint.)

    On top of this, I have heard a lot of managers make comments about “doing this for our kids.” For example, at a meeting about a big project that was getting off track, a director lectured everyone that the cost of getting behind schedule is time with our families because if we don’t finish the project on schedule, we’ll have to keep working long hours, and that means that Joe won’t be able to see his kid’s baseball game and Bob will have to miss his kid’s dance recital.

    Well, I’m single with no kids and that’s probably not going to change. So, does that mean I don’t have to “work safe”? And does it not matter if I have to work long hours, because I don’t have any kids’ events to attend or any family in the area? Someone’s waiting for me at home? I hope not, because I live alone! Now, I realize that a lot of people’s lives center around their kids and families, and that’s fine, and I’m not offended by people prioritizing their families. I am, however, starting to get annoyed by having giant pictures of coworkers’ kids in my face all day and constant messages about kids being all that matter in life. I’m sure they didn’t set out to insult people without kids, but there’s this implied sense of superiority — these other people are doing it for their kids and I’m just a selfish jerk who’s only looking out for myself — and also, my safety and my time don’t matter because I don’t have kids.

    1. londonedit*

      Oh, man, this would annoy the everliving HECK out of me. Yeah, great, so no one gives a flying fig about my workplace safety, because I don’t have kids waiting at home? Brilliant.

    2. anna green*

      Oof yeah, as a safety person, I would not have chosen that campaign. It makes it seem like you are only valuable because of what other people think of you. You should be safe because you are important, just in general. I also think it’s not worth fighting over, just a roll your eyes thing and wait until the next silly campaign comes along.

      1. anna green*

        omg I just re-read and didn’t realize they were actual pictures of coworkers real children, not just stock photos and posters. That would totally drive me crazy too.

        1. Seeking Second Childhood*

          Well okay I suddenly understand why the powers-that-be upstairs decided to ONLY use stock photos instead of employee photos unless it’s a headshot or a posed group shot at a special event.

    3. Watry*

      Yeah, that’s annoying. Just the decals wouldn’t be worth the mental space, but it sounds like they’re harping on it. As a single childfree-by-choice-and-biology person, I think I’d be mildly annoyed too.

    5. A Simple Narwhal*

      Ew gross. I think I’m more concerned that it’s actual pictures of people’s actual children at their place of work. Granted I don’t have children so maybe I’m way off but there’s something weird about that.

      Also, if there were pictures of dogs/cats/other pets instead of children, I might totally be on board, so do with that what you will. (That anti-drinking and driving commercial with the dog waiting at home: “they won’t understand why you didn’t come back” caught me straight in the feels.)

      But then again I think if the message was more along the lines of “we all have lives outside of work and different things that motivate us, let’s be safe/efficient/work hard so we all get to experience that” you might be more into it. Them going full hog with the “oh god think of the children” message in everything is super weird.

      1. kittymommy*

        – Also, if there were pictures of dogs/cats/other pets instead of children, I might totally be on board, so do with
        that what you will. (That anti-drinking and driving commercial with the dog waiting at home: “they won’t
        understand why you didn’t come back” caught me straight in the feels.)

        Same, Narwahl, same. Thinking of my little kitties sitting at home waiting for me after I got in an accident was terrifying.

    6. Approval is optional*

      I think it’s interesting that you see an implied sense of superiority: I see a patronising, guilt-tripping strategy that implies that if you get injured, you’re a selfish unloving parent! There is an ad for heart health here that has a child saying that their mother didn’t love them, because the mother died from heart disease and left them alone (I’ve paraphrased of course)!! Your company is taking the same tack, and I see little positive about it.

      1. londonedit*

        Yeah, it’s not great for anyone. If a parent does get injured, there’s this whole other ‘YOU HAVE LET YOUR CHILDREN DOWN’ guilt thing, and as a non-parent myself I totally read it as an example of the whole ‘Parents’ lives are more meaningful than yours’ bullcrap. Not a great look all round.

      2. BethDH*

        Yeah, this was my first response too. But then, I tend to be sensitive to things that make me feel like my only relevant role in society is as a mother, and that goes double when it’s at work.
        That said, it seems like it’s over-the-top enough that I would probably laugh at it. Or start some new memes . . .

        1. Former Employee*

          At least you are relevant in some way. /s

          Based on this “campaign”, people who aren’t parents seem to be irrelevant.

      3. motherofdragons*

        This also totally read as patronizing to me. I’m a parent and I would hate this kind of guilt-trippy bullshit. As if we don’t already have enough “careful that you’re not a shitty parent!” being lobbed at us from all other aspects of our lives!

    7. ClosedWindow*

      I’m single and childless too, so I would find it annoying in that regard.

      Even if I had kids, it’d still rub me the wrong way. I think the “be safe for your loved ones’/friends’ sake” message could be a good way to tug at emotions and help persuade people to be safe, but it’s more appropriate as an e-mail, a small portion of a presentation, or a few posters with stock kid photos. 6-foot high photos of actual employee kids is creepy and strange! Were people forced to supply photos or something? I can’t image agreeing to that. And the manager reminding everyone that they’re “doing it for the kids” seems pushy and intrusive. We don’t need to be constantly reminded of our family life (or lack of a family life) at work.

      1. Susan K*

        I know, right? If I had kids, I don’t think I’d be comfortable with having their photos displayed like this. I wouldn’t be comfortable having my photo displayed like this at my parents’ workplace. I don’t know how they got the photos because I don’t remember seeing any company-wide request for photos of kids.

        1. ClosedWindow*

          I wouldn’t want my photo displayed at my parents’ job either! I hope they didn’t steal the photos off of Facebook and surprise the parents.

          1. Susan K*

            I’m fairly sure the parents voluntarily provided the photos, because I’d have to think there would be outrage if the company just took the pictures off Facebook or something. I’m not sure how the company went about asking for the photos (did they just ask random people until they got enough photos? Or maybe they approached people who had photos on their desks or lockers?), but there are hundreds of employees here, so I’m sure there were enough people who thought it would be awesome to see giant photos of their kids in the hallway every day.

            1. ClosedWindow*

              Ah, okay. It make sense that there’d be a couple weird people out of hundreds. :)

      2. There's Always Money in the Banana Stand*

        Yeah, the fact that the photos are photos of actual kids/grandkids is what threw me. That seems very intrusive. I am not a parent, but if I were, I wouldn’t want photos of my children blown up and posted throughout my workplace. This is a total lack of privacy, and it also seems kind of dangerous…if there were to be a situation where a disgruntled employee or customer got it in their minds to do something awful in retaliation and knows what your children look like.

    8. T3k*

      Ew, just ew. I also feel like, depending how the company is, it also has the subtle effect of going “if you quit, how will you support your child/family?” Not to mention the privacy issue regarding using actual images of the kids.

      1. Iron Chef Boyardee*

        On the other hand, if there are layoffs or if someone gets fired they can turn it around and throw it back at the company: “If you let me go, how will I support my child/family?”

    9. Beatrice*

      I have a child, and I’d hate this. Don’t invoke my personal life in work matters, and don’t try to motivate me by evoking an emotional response. The workplace is a business and their motives are practical, and I’d rather they be straightforward about that.

      1. Susan K*

        Yeah, I also think it’s kind of patronizing for the company to pretend that they care about their employees’ kids. I think we all know that the company’s main interest in safety is not getting sued, and their main interest in finishing projects on time is profit.

    10. OhNo*

      I have so many questions about this campaign. Like, did the parents all okay having massive decals made of their children? Where did the pictures come from? Did they kids’ other parent(s) give approval? What about the kids themselves? I cannot even imagine being a teen or tween and knowing that there was a massive image of me at peak awkward adorning the wall of my dad’s workplace where a bunch of strangers could see it.

      Anyway, yeah. This is a campaign that would irritate the heck out of me. As a childfree-by-choice adult, I’d be irritated that my life and safety is viewed as less important because I’m not supporting kids. Because humans are complicated beasts, I’d also be irritated as a devoted uncle, because my awesome nibling didn’t get to be on the wall, implying that any relationship other than primary parent doesn’t ‘count’ as important to the company.

      1. Lilysparrow*

        Oh, I’m sure the employer hacked all their employee’s social media accounts, stole the pictures, and used them without permission.

        Or pulled everyone’s health insurance records to make sure that everyone who was insuring a child was required to supply a photo or be fired.

        As opposed to making an announcement about a big campaign featuring kids, and that everyone who wanted to send in a photo of their kids should email it to Karen in Communications. Because just asking for volunteers would, of course, be so much extra work and hassle when you could just turn your company into a supervillain out of a dystopian novel.

        1. OhNo*

          Wow, the tone coming off your comment is… intense. I’m not sure if you meant it that way, but it really reads as condescending and rude.

          I’m not seeing where I suggested or even implied that the company was some kind of supervillain. I was curious about the logistics of it, since this seems like a program that would take a massive amount of effort. Plus, you know, I thought it would be fun to pose some of the questions that immediately popped into my head, and maybe have a congenial back-and-forth with my fellow commenters about how much effort and logistics this plan must have taken.

          Guess that’s off the table, though, huh?

          1. Lilysparrow*

            Ask a silly question, aka “where did the photos come from?”

            Get a silly answer.

            You ask any random group of parents, “would you like your kid’s photo to be in a promo campaign?” and they will flood your inbox any day of the week and twice on Thursdays.

            1. OhNo*

              Or maybe, just maybe, it was meant to be a rhetorical question to get a conversation about logistics started? You know, like when I said, “I thought it would be fun to pose some of the questions that immediately popped into my head, and maybe have a congenial back-and-forth with my fellow commenters about how much effort and logistics this plan must have taken.”

              But since this response makes it clear that the condescension in your initial response was intentional, I don’t think I’ll be engaging with you anymore.

            2. Shoes On My Cat*

              Yikes! That was …unkind. If someone asks a question, it means they don’t have an answer. People do not all have the same background/history/life experience, so what seems obvious to one person, is a whole new world to another person—and vice versa. We have seen some fantastic examples of poor judgement, thoughtlessness and all around ‘out of touch scenarios’ in this column. It’s not a long stretch to imagine some intern tasked with getting pictures to go around with a phone and snap photos/scans of desk photos rather than sending an email, which the initial commenter stated didn’t happen so….leaves the door open for the entertainment of mental musings. Just for fun.

        2. Former Employee*

          Or maybe they have a company newsletter which includes pictures of employees and their families and decided it would be cute to re-purpose those photos for this safety campaign.

          It might not have crossed anyone’s mind that a photo that is acceptable for a one time use in a little newsletter might not be such a great idea when blown up to life size and used on a permanent basis.

    11. Jadelyn*

      Oh my GOD I would be so pissed. I’m childfree – by choice, thanks – and because of the way people tend to be about women* who don’t want kids, I’m pretty damn sensitive about implications that my life is not complete or is worth less until I’ve spawned. People’s time outside of work is valuable regardless of their reproductive status, people’s safety is valuable whether the ones who love them and depend on them are under 18, and this safety campaign and whole framing of the work is a total dumpster fire of exclusivity. Consider also: the Othering effect this may have on same-sex couples, for whom having kids is a much more deliberate and fraught process than it tends to be for most mixed-sex couples.

      *I’m genderqueer/genderfluid, but I’m AFAB and am inevitably assumed to be a woman, so I count myself under that umbrella still for purposes of social interaction, since that’s how the world treats me.

      1. AnonEMoose*

        Also childfree very much by choice. This campaign would seriously piss me off. I don’t have children, I don’t want children, I’m not having children. And there are still people in my life who would be very upset if I got hurt.

        I totally feel you on the obnoxious way women who don’t have children get treated. And I’ve been on the receiving end of being expected to pick up the slack for coworkers with children (that’s a recipe for resentment, for sure – I don’t mind so much if the favor gets returned when I need a little flexibility…but more often, my experience has been that the very people I covered for complained about my needing any consideration.)

        It would be so much better if the campaign was focused on “stay safe for whatever/whoever is important in your life.” Your partner (if you have one), family, friends, pets…whatever. But as it is…tone-deaf is the mildest description I can think of.

    12. LCL*

      Think of this as an opportunity to get some needed safety improvements. Your argument to management in favor of new tools, more staffing, reevaluating a process etc is ‘We have just started this new safety campaign. These things I am suggesting are safety items and would fit right in with this campaign.’

    13. The Man, Becky Lynch*

      I would demand that there be a fat-head of my cat. “Work safe, h00man, I need you to scoop my box tonight!”

      1. AnonEMoose*

        Fat-head of the cat glaring out of the picture, with the caption “You need to FEED ME.”

        1. Jadelyn*

          “Work harder, human, you need to buy me more treats!”

          (I always give my kitty a treat when I leave for work, and sometimes I’ll say “Ok, bye baby, someone’s got to go out and earn money to keep buying you treats.”)

          1. rmw1982*

            I tell my cats I have to go to work to buy them cat food. They seem unimpressed.

    14. I need a vacation*

      a director lectured everyone that the cost of getting behind schedule is time with our families because if we don’t finish the project on schedule, we’ll have to keep working long hours, and that means that Joe won’t be able to see his kid’s baseball game and Bob will have to miss his kid’s dance recital.

      I would run out of there screaming. Way to guilt us about other people’s parenting needs and making it my fault for the boss’s failing or other matters beyond my control, and also if the company REALLY cared about this shit, they would say “we never make you work long hours so you have to miss your kids events” and wow, like, “my dad never came to my ball games!” and “my dad never showed up to my recitals!” are such stereotypical things that, wow, way to blame the wrong people for that instead of blaming the boss or the culture.

      1. Not So NewReader*

        That whole thing sounds paternalistic and condescending.

        No. It’s your job to work safely. You don’t work safely, you get written up. Period. The end of discussion.
        It’s your job to assist the work flow, you can’t keep things moving along, we are going to have a chat about that.

        It almost sounds like they think people are dense.

        Any time I have heard complaints about falling behind schedule, the people being admonished had absolutely no control over that. A classic example was when a contract was to be completed by X date.
        The raw materials to do the job arrived on that date that completion was due.
        Front line people have no control over these types of problems, yet they got the hurry up! lecture.

      2. EinJungerLudendorff*

        They’re basically holding their employees time with their loved ones hostage.
        “If you want to see your family again, you better do everything we tell you. Failure will not be tolerated.”

    15. Grace*

      Huh. I’ve seen that done the other way around – some of the tram stops in my city have posters with pictures of kids saying their daddy is a tram driver or whatever (uncertain whether actual children or stock photos) in the context of “You’re not just ruining your own life if you drive your car out in front of a tram, the drivers have families and lives too” which I think is reasonably effective. Though the point of those posters isn’t “Stay safe for your children”, it’s more aimed at humanising the drivers and making people think about them more.

      But posters with the actual kids of workers? Kind of weird. And icky. Not least because plenty of people don’t like the idea of having photos of their children out in the wild…

    16. Liz*

      I get it. While I don’t work in that type of setting, i AM single, with no kids, and live alone. So yeah, while technically I don’t have anyone waiting for me at home, i DO have an elderly, disabled, but still very with it and independent mother who does rely on me for some things. So yeah, my safety would be for her!

    17. Sam Sepiol*

      Sometimes in roadworks on UK motorways I’ve seen similar pictures “don’t kill my dad” kind of thing. I have a kid and the implication that parents are inherently more valuable than non-parents annoys me.

      Valid frustration.

    18. MeganK*

      This is horrifying, and I say that as someone who is weeks away from having their first kid. Like I have just been sitting here dumbfounded with my mouth hanging open.

      First of all, ABSOLUTELY not everyone has kids and not everyone wants to, and workplaces – like, just don’t do this. Just don’t. Second of all, even people who have kids or grandkids or whatever, why…are we making our work lives all about people who don’t work at the company? I think people with are perfectly able to remember that their kids do in fact depend on them without stuffing it down everyone’s throats like this, yikes.

      Someone else mentioned people’s permission/comfort level with GIANT PICTURES OF THEIR CHILDREN ADORNING WORK HALLWAYS and I agree, I have all the questions about that. I kind of want to know how those conversations even went – how do you ask someone for photos of their kid to blow up and paste in the hallway with scold-y messages? Seriously, how do the words come out of your mouth and you still don’t realize how weird it is, hypothetical asking person?

      Last but not least, this feels really icky and manipulative to me. Like, talk to me as a professional about my work, but DO NOT bring my kids into my performance evaluations and into our conversations about work hours, etc. It would be inappropriate for me to do it, it’s inappropriate for my workplace to do it too. And that doesn’t even get into how it would make other people to feel to think I somehow blame _them_ for missing time with my family if we have to work late? I don’t think you could do a better job pitting employees against each other if you tried (well, ok, you could, but you’d have to try hard). @Susan K you are absolutely not overreacting, this is horrible no matter how you look at it.

      1. MeganK*

        Sorry, I think I muddied my last point – if I’m letting talking about my kids or being out of the office for family-related stuff affect my work, it makes sense to bring that up in my performance evaluations, because it’s affecting the quality of my work! But don’t use an emotional whammy to try and manipulate me into doing my job correctly/safely – we should have adequate processes to train and enforce that.

        Just like it would be wildly inappropriate for me to say, “but you can’t fire me, what about my faaaaamily,” it should be just as inappropriate for my workplace to say “you have to perform adequately because your faaaaaamily.” So weird and gross.

    19. KR*

      So we did a similar safety campaign called “Why we work safe”. Management sent out huge blank posters. I don’t have kids so I put up a pic of my with my spouse and my animals. Lots of people put up pictures of pets or kids. They also wrote on the posters reasons why they might work safe such as reduced health care costs or disruptions to life. I can see why this campaign is rubbing you the wrong way and maybe it would be a good suggestion to your management to expand their safety campaign to include people without kids or family.

        1. KR*

          It was a pretty fun way to participate in the safety program and it’s a nice reminder about safety. I also got to post up pics of my pets at work so thats nice. Brings some personal touches to our office.

        2. Elitist Semicolon*

          I would have filled my poster with graphic pictures of industrial accidents and written something like, “Because I don’t want to end up on a poster like this.” Then again, I’m terrible, so.

          1. KR*

            Some offices did that. Not wanting to get injured is a very valid reason to want to work safely.

          2. Shoes On My Cat*

            That’s funny!! I spend my day teaching outdoor skills to adults and their favorite of my many sayings is ‘learn from my bruises, not yours!’ So I am basically a live version of your hypothetical poster! (Scars too…& I’m considered overly cautious by my peers!)

        3. LJay*

          Seriously. I work in a job and industry where safety is very important. And there is no way me or my team are taking time to make posters of things that are important to us.

          It’s giving me bad flashbacks to when I worked a sales job and they wanted us to make “dream boards” to look at while doing our sales, because looking at pictures of what we wanted to do with out commission money would make us better sellers apparently.

          Or the Simpson’s with his Maggie “Do it for her” picture.

          1. KR*

            I mean, by taking the time to make posters I mean it took me less than 20 minutes to email a couple pictures to my work email, print them, and tape them to the poster. and it probably took an additional 10 minutes to unwrap the poster, read the instructions, and hang it up in our office. Coworkers who did not want to put up pictures wrote reasons why they work safe on the poster.
            Our company takes the standpoint that safety is our top priority all the time and that there is always time for safety & safety related activities. Sorry to hear y’all are super busy.

    20. Anonymeece*

      Wasn’t there a comedian who said something similar about those “Baby on Board” decals on cars? Like, “Drive safe because I have a baby! No, drive safe because there are other human beings of all ages in cars around you.”

      I mean, I don’t think it’d be worth causing a stink over, but yeah, that’s a bit obnoxious.

      1. Not So NewReader*

        I remember that. It morphed into dalmatian on board or collie on board, etc then finally faded out.
        I used to chuckle. “Yeah, my car just has me in it. So no worries.”

      2. Lady Kelvin*

        I always assumed it was so that if there was an accident first responders would know that there may be littles in the vehicles who are less likely to survive the same injuries as an adult and may need faster/different care. I know we had stickers on our bedroom windows when I was a kid to alert the fire dept, that these were children’s rooms so that they could rescue the kids first in the event of an emergency. Nowadays people would probably argue that that’s just advertising to potential kidnappers which room is the kid’s room, but since its more likely for your house to catch on fire than a random stranger to abduct a kid, the risk is probably worth it. Plus if a rando was going to abduct a kid, all they’d have to do is look in the window to see if there was kid stuff in it. Firefighters don’t have the luxury of time.

    21. JediSquirrel*

      IIRC, I read about this on LinkedIn. The reason they did this is that none of their employees were taking safety matters seriously and they had a high number of injuries every month. An intern came up with this idea, because à large number of their employees are Hispanic and highly family oriented. After this campaign started, the number of injuries dropped to nearly zero. So there was a perfectly good reason for doing this in the first place. All previous attempts to reduce the number of injuries and get employees to take safety seriously had failed, including disciplinary action.

      The managers are being a bit over the top, though.

    22. Washi*

      Ugh, it reminds me of when people talk about street harassment being bad because that woman is someone’s daughter/mother/sister etc. No! You are a human who has a right to safety!

      1. Cambridge Comma*

        Yeah, it’s like ‘that woman might bethe property of some other guy, so leave ber alone!’

    23. proud pet parent*

      yeah, that would really annoy me too. now if they said be safe, your dog and cats depend on you, that’s another story!

    24. Errol*

      There’s actually a campaign run in my city every single year of this. It’s just adverts of kids crying or asking where Daddy is (and always Daddy, never Mommy) or sitting at the table having a stare down with a glass of milk (that was a confusing one) and then at the end it has a “DRIVE SAFE IN CONSTRUCTION ZONES FOR THE CHILDREN” or some other silly slogan on the screen. They have giant banners and billboards on the side of the roads.
      Its both awful and funny even though I understand it shouldn’t be it’s just the execution of the idea was so so bad.

      It’s a terrible campaign, but someone had success with it somewhere once and then it became a Thing To Do. I’m childless as well so I hate these campaigns, but I’d wager even people with kiddlets are getting annoyed by it.

      1. Clawfoot*

        Yup. Billboards in construction zones with cherub-faced children looking worried. “Drive safe — my daddy works here!” I’ve seen them around here, and it drives me nuts.

    25. Ella Vader*

      I’m single and childless, and this isn’t offensive. Granted, I don’t get offended by much and don’t go looking for offense where no is intended, either.

      1. 3pointsofcontact*

        I totally agree. Based on my pretty regular reading of this site, I don’t think a lot active commenters work in an industrial setting. I don’t think you can really get how big of a deal safety (safety initiatives, safety protocols, safety departments) is in industry compared to office work (I’ve done both! Office in DC, industrial setting out west! We are REQUIRED to hold on to handrails walking up stairs in an office on the industrial site! Never had signs like that in DC offices!). Nowadays (compared to, say, pre-OSHA, pre-MSHA days), SO MANY safety incidents are just… “oh, I’ll just lean a little bit to grab this so I don’t have to move my ladder” –> spinal injury, or “oh, help me carry this real fast” –> one person lets go of heavy thing too early, hand injury. No matter how many safety meetings, safety discussions, protective gear vouchers, safety protocols and forms, people keep doing little things like this that have big health/injury consequences. Remembering you’ve got a kid/family/whatever to go home to OR that your COWORKER that you put at risk has kids/spouse/sick parents helps put your sloppy/not thoughtful/not careful work in perspective! No one’s saying people with kids matter more. It’s saying that one second of carelessness can threaten your health, your coworkers’ health, and ALL the people who care about y’all’s well-being.
        I don’t like the director’s thing about too much work means everyone has to work long hours, seems like a management/scheduling issue to me.

    26. MoopySwarpet*

      This is legitimately annoying. Not a hill to die on by any means, but you’re not weird for being annoyed.

    27. Eukomos*

      That would drive me nuts, as a person who wants kids with a partner who isn’t sure about them. Thanks for throwing that in my face all day every day, work. And there are people in way worse situations, what if there’s someone struggling with infertility or who recently had a miscarriage? That could be really painful.

    29. MissDisplaced*

      Ehhhhh…
      I feel you on this, as I’m not much of a kid person myself. I suppose I get that family is important to a lot of people, but as a campaign they could’ve been a little more inclusive to the other joys of life that don’t involve breeding.

  8. Panda*

    Can you require someone to take FMLA/Disability?

    I wrote about a month or two about my boss who is very ill with cancer. She’s still trying to work in spite of being extremely ill, repeated hospitalizations, and she’s barely online. We received an email on Tuesday from her stating that’s she so dehydrated and exhausted that she is in a wheelchair and has a nurse coming to the house to give her iv fluids a couple times per week, she’s too weak to continue chemo, has C-Diff from being the hospital, is in overwhelming pain and on pain killers, and her “entire life is committed” to seeing her granddaughter graduate from high school on Monday “live.” In spite of this, she’s attempting to work.

    How can she even attempt to work? I know she’s been at this company for 30+ years and is dedicated to us, and what she and her family are going through is way worse than us as her direct reports. But honestly, (I feel like a jerk for saying this) this is super distracting. She’s maybe online for 2 hours per day from what I can tell (via our chat software) and we’ve all been treating her boss like he’s our boss now because she’s been unreachable. But then she gets upset when we do that.

    Can my company make her take disability or retire (she’s 69) because she’s not well enough to work even if she things she is?

    1. Temperance*

      Oh yikes. This is a situation that would need an attorney to handle. With her advanced age and her health issues, I wouldn’t want to be on the other side of a lawsuit.

    2. Colette*

      Honestly, it sounds like her manager needs to talk with her and let her know that your team is going to be going to him until she is able to be back at work full time. He doesn’t have to make her stop working, but he does need to make it so you can work without having to deal with her emotions about it.

      3. C*

        Agreed. Her manager needs to let her know that the company will give her the space she needs, but work does continue and he expects the team to come to him with time-sensitive issues if she’s not available. Do you have a relationship with her boss where you can suggest something like this?

        And, no, I don’t think you can make anyone take FMLA or disability. I have a coworker with Parkinsons who is not nearly as dire as your boss, but also really shouldn’t be working. My boss has let him know that he has full support if he wants to take FMLA or go on disability, he’ll help with the paperwork if Coworker wants, etc. but he can’t/won’t push further.

        1. Camellia*

          Plus, I’ve found that many people think that FMLA leave is paid leave. It is only paid leave if you have sick days or vacation days that you can take during your leave. If you are lucky enough to have short-term and long-term disability insurance through your work then that will help some, but at a reduced wage/salary.

          Many people don’t have enough (or any) sick/vacation days in order to get paid. Even fewer have disability insurance. All FMLA does is guarantee that they will keep SOME KIND of job for you. It doesn’t pay your wage or salary.

      4. Fortitude Jones*

        I was going to say the same thing – her manager and HR needs to get involved here. He can absolutely tell her that she needs to take FMLA leave since her medical issues are becoming a distraction in the workplace, he just needs HR to be there with him to ensure he’s using the correct language. When I was having medical issues that only required me going to therapy once a day every week, my grandboss at my old company two jobs ago told my supervisor to tell me to work with HR to get approved for intermittent FMLA leave. His reason was that if someone above him noticed my frequent appointments and started questioning it, he could always say I had approved medical leave and no one would be able to threaten my employment. No one at that company in that division would have done that anyway, but he just wanted to be on the safe side.

        1. Not Me*

          I definitely wouldn’t couch it as her medical issues being a distraction in the workplace. It needs to be clear what the expectations of her role are and where she isn’t meeting them. This needs to be about her performance and ability to do her job.

          1. Fortitude Jones*

            Oh, of course – that’s why I said HR needs to be present for this conversation as well so the manager says the right thing to her as opposed to something like what I said, lol.

    3. Lora*

      I don’t know about “make”. I have seen people be told that they WILL be retiring or that the company WILL be assisting them in the transition to short term disability or whatever. But the unspoken part of it was, you can do this the easy way and let us help with paperwork or we can fire you outright because you’re not performing – and we’re really trying to help you. Sometimes they tell the person, we will always have a place here for you, but right now you need to take care of yourself, or sometimes they offer to provide part time work in a less demanding role, but mostly not.

      But I’ve also had relatives who worked well past the time that their health really allowed them to do their jobs competently, because they couldn’t afford to retire even at age 70, because they had enormous medical bills from the illness that was causing them to lose so much time at work, etc. It may well be that medical bills have eaten up all her savings despite insurance, it might be that without full time work she won’t have insurance and would have to discontinue her treatments. You never know what’s really going on with a person.

      1. blink14*

        100% agree with the insurance comment. She most likely is making a tremendous effort on her part to remain involved because she desperately needs her health insurance to cover treatment.

        It’s also possible doing some form of work everyday is what is keeping her together mentally – trying to maintain a normal routine as best she can.

        1. Ashley*

          Given her age she should qualify for Medicare. This is something the higher ups need to address and short term disability might be the solution. This also might be a company showing compassion by letting her keep her job. I think you are limited to having a conversation with her boss about how to handle reporting decisions given her limited availability.

          1. Former Employee*

            I would hate to think that this poor woman is desperately hanging on to her job and forcing herself to work when this ill because she believes she will be without insurance if she retires. If she or her spouse worked for 10 years or more and paid Medicare taxes for that time period, then she was eligible for Medicare at age 65.

            In addition, she should be entitled to disability coverage, whether it’s a benefit though her employer or provided by the state she lives in or through Social Security.

          2. Tom & Johnny*

            As someone with an aged parent with multiple health issues, Medicare is not a panacea. It’s not an answer really at all. Many people pay for add-on healthcare plans for good reason. And many doctors will not take Medicare patients at all.

            Not to mention that getting chemotherapy protocols approved and paid for is a postmodern farce unto itself, even with the best of insurance. Changing insurance in the middle of chemo, to a state administered policy that some doctors don’t even take, is nightmarish.

            Medicare is entirely state dependent, and especially Medicaid. Red states are more stringent and hardcore about Medicare than blue states. That’s not a political statement just an observation of fact, one acknowledged by my mom’s own healthcare attorneys. So it’s not really possible or fair to generalize across states.

            Just keep in mind that if one lives in a state with a strong healthcare social safety net, or really any kind of healthcare safety net at all, that experience does not indicate what is available to people in other states.

            It seems to me like the company is treating this woman’s continued employment as a polite fiction. They know she can’t really work, they have to know the odds of her coming back are slim. They are allowing her to hang onto her insurance and status, that’s all. To permit her some dignity and to prevent medical and legal upheaval to her family. That’s all.

            Go along with the polite fiction, and when she gets fussy about going over her for answers, treat it like the complaints of a dying person. Because it is.

      2. Rusty Shackelford*

        I don’t know about “make”. I have seen people be told that they WILL be retiring or that the company WILL be assisting them in the transition to short term disability or whatever. But the unspoken part of it was, you can do this the easy way and let us help with paperwork or we can fire you outright because you’re not performing – and we’re really trying to help you.

        Yeah… while they can’t make you take FMLA, they can dismiss you for being unable to perform your job. Which, of course, is what FMLA protects you against.

    4. LCL*

      Her medical situation sounds not stable at all. It appears your company is putting off doing anything and expecting mother nature and father time to handle this. I’m sorry for her, and her family.

      1. Not So NewReader*

        Agreed.
        My husband’s company kept him as long as they could. It started with ignoring his lateness and his slow work. He used short term disability, then it became clear that was not enough. His boss had to let him go, but the boss did say, “When you are ready to come back, I will find SOMETHING, SOMEWHERE for you to do.” [The company did not have to rehire him.]
        The boss mostly knew hubby would not be back. But it made my husband happier than all get-out to hear the boss go “Papa Bear” on this point.

        In turn, I had a happier husband, which made my caregiver role easier.

        There are some roads you only go down once, you don’t get to redo the road. While it makes it hard on the cohorts left behind, there is the thought that they can figure they will get the same support if they ever need it. At some point companies do have to take people off the books, it just might take longer than we think it should. But my example is one of the many reasons why.

        1. Tom & Johnny*

          “There are some roads you only go down once, you don’t get to redo the road.”

          Wow. That is incredibly powerfully said.

          It sounds like you have been through the wringer, and that you lost your dear husband. I am so sorry.

          Much respect for your strength of character and strength of heart that shine through in a statement like that.

    5. The Man, Becky Lynch*

      There are ways to force people into retirement specifically, it’s essentially a “you can voluntarily leave [aka retire] or you can be terminated due to performance and attendance issues” set up. Or if they’re doing cutbacks, they can choose to to lay her off, that’s what they did to my father years ago, shocking, all the older crew got moved to the shift that was going to get cut first.

      This is really icky sticky waters and they need to use an attorney if they go that route.

      This sounds awful but does your health insurance plan come with a life insurance policy? It could be that she’s riding it out so that her loved ones can get that.

    6. Sonora*

      Oh man, this reminds me of my first supervising job at around age 25. I managed three people, two of which were much older than I was. One of these ladies got diagnosed with cancer and was so ill during her treatments. Like, sitting at her desk vomiting in a trash can. She really was too sick to work, but got a lot of moral support from being there, and I could totally sympathize with her not wanting to just be home alone suffering. But – she was barely working and our department was very busy and needed help. So I talked to my manager about it, having NO IDEA how to handle, and feeling like a jerk for wanting to have her stay home and recover and get a temp. The manager just said, oh, poor Jan, just let her come in if that is what she wants to do. Things got steadily worse for her, which was terrible, but also, the other staff were getting incredibly frustrated and burnt out, understandably. I really had no idea what to do.
      Then…we got an HR person (previously no HR). I gave that lady exactly two weeks before I approached her and asked for help. She was horrified. For better or worse, she handled it – I wasn’t a part of the discussion at all, but Jan was put on a reduced schedule that she felt she could agree to, and used FMLA for the days she could not work. It was still really hard, but at least there was an attempt at predictability. Jan did end up leaving because she just could not commit to working at all, given the terrible side effects she endured. I always felt really bad about the situation, but was so grateful that HR saw what a bad position we were in and helped out.

      So – I would say, it’s really up to your boss’s boss and HR to step in and see if she is able to work on a reduced, predictable schedule, and also to understand that she is sick and should focus on her health! I think it’s just really hard for some people to accept the illness and so they try to proceed as normal, not to mention possible financial/insurance considerations.

      1. Former Employee*

        Unless someone works in a medical facility where they are expected as part of their job to be around various bodily fluids of others, it would be extremely unfair to require anyone to put up with this situation.

    7. Pay no attention to the man behind the curtain*

      Not a lawyer so take this with a grain of salt, but they probably can’t make her take FMLA or Disability, but they probably can “suspend” her rather than outright fire her if the employer is trying to be compassionate and allow her to remain employed and insured. Then she could have the choice to take that “suspension” as unpaid, not on Disability/FMLA, or unpaid on Disability/FMLA with the protections that those designations afford. I’m guessing the reason she’s probably not going on FMLA, other than maybe pride, is that she can’t afford to go unpaid and the Disability insurance payments won’t be enough.

    8. Tmarie*

      You don’t know this woman’s financial life, or insurance situation. Or what it is taking for her to hang onto life. I’ve worked with someone who fought stage 4 cancer for seven years before succumbing. I know if my company had “fired” her or “made” her go on disability they would have become scum in my eyes, and the eyes of dozens of others. She has 30 years of service, give some respect.

      1. Not Me*

        The company needs to respect the other employees too. That’s why you can have a conversation with the employee to say “We know you’re going through major health issues and we are very understanding about that. Your job duties aren’t being taken care of, so we’re going to reassign some of your duties to John until you’re ready to take them back.”

        A business can be compassionate and still be a business.

      2. rialto*

        Perfectly stated Tmarie! I think it is a shame that some people find her poor health “super distracting”

        1. Lissa*

          Doesn’t not being able to contact your boss, and the boss getting upset when you go to someone else, qualify as distracting regardless of the reason though? I mean, I don’t see that the reason behind it makes it suddenly not an issue, and since they sadly can’t fix her health, what are they supposed to do?

      3. Temperance*

        “Scum”?

        There was nothing disrespectful about this post. OP is in a hard position here. It’s impacting the team, and that can’t be ignored.

        1. Tmarie*

          As were me and my former, now deceased boss, when the company sent her a letter saying they were going to terminate her after FMLA ended, and then she could re-apply for her job when she was better. My personal lived experience is what I was salty about.

          1. Ltrim Press Club*

            I’m so sorry for your loss and I’m sorry for how they treated your boss.

            In times like these, we need compassion the most.

    9. Ella P.*

      For what it’s worth, I really feel for you. My manager’s husband was diagnosed with cancer quickly and in the process of his treatments she made every attempt to work and made the whole situation in the office a challenge. She was very afraid of losing her job and so the people that were covering she was grateful to and then difficult with… territorial and defensive… she would give us a schedule and change it… even when told it was OK to take time off, she would decide to work and then not be up to speed on the day to day details and cause issues… and in our case, short of the day we heard, her boss and her boss’ boss, both high level execs, did nothing to support day to day operations. Of course were all supportive of her and her family’s situation but… the business end was so challenging and unpredictable… every day was different (she would cover this trip, now she can’t, now she can) and the confusion made it worse. It would have been good for someone higher up to have helped steer and not left it on the shoulders of her direct reports.

      I was disappointed in her managers. I would try to reach out to her boss and have a conversation around how can you support her at this time and support the team. I don’t think you can make anyone do or take anything… but maybe some more support for you and her other direct reports would be helpful. Such a difficult situation, wish you all the best with it.

    10. Anonymouse*

      They can’t make her take FMLA but they could fire her. She’s 69 years old and therefore eligible for Medicare which will cover almost all of her medical expenses if she gets Part A and Part B. If she’s in Europe, she’s most likely covered by some form of socialized medicine. So I really doubt that the expense of the medical treatment is the real reason for her not retiring. My speculation is that the job provides distraction and something to hang on to while providing a modicum of control over a certain aspect of her life. Does that solve your problem? Of course not. However, it’s not your problem to solve. Keep presenting the impact of not having a functioning supervisor and let her boss come up with a solution.

    11. AnonBirder*

      I don’t think they can force her to take FMLA or retire, but they can require that she take leave (or fire her) if she’s not able to do her job. I can understand that she doesn’t want to quit due to insurance (even with Medicaid availability, her work insurance may provide much better benefits), or the motivation of work helping her psychologically.

      If the company can afford it, and the illness is time limited (ie, she’s either going to get better or die), the compassionate thing to do could be to redistribute her job duties so that the work is getting done and her direct reports are actually being supervised, but allow her to do some remote work as she is able. If she’s upset about that, there’s not really anything the employer can do about it, because it’s not reasonable for her to not be able to the work *and* demand that no-one else be allowed to do it.

      It’s more difficult if the illness is not time limited, and the situation will continue indefinitely, because it’s not reasonable for an employer to pay a full salary to a non-working employee for years on end.

      In all cases, though, it’s not a problem you can solve. About all you can do is go to your boss’s boss for direction and information as needed, and let them know the problems you are having, or, if it gets frustrating enough, start looking for a new job.

    12. Not A Manager*

      “We received an email on Tuesday from her stating that’s she so dehydrated and exhausted that she is in a wheelchair and has a nurse coming to the house to give her iv fluids a couple times per week, she’s too weak to continue chemo, has C-Diff from being the hospital, is in overwhelming pain and on pain killers, and her “entire life is committed” to seeing her granddaughter graduate from high school on Monday “live.” In spite of this, she’s attempting to work.”

      I’m sorry for your situation, but please take a step back. This lady is not going to last long. She has some compelling reason to need to keep working. Maybe it’s financial or insurance related, or maybe it’s some kind of psychological need. Whatever, your company has decided to allow her to keep “working.” They’ve given you a resource in that you can go to your grandboss when you need to.

      I think your company is being very compassionate. You don’t say that you can’t get your work done, your complaint is that this situation is “distracting.” I think you should suck it up and be distracted. If by some miracle the situation really lasts for a lot longer – such that work actually suffers – I’m sure your company will address it.

      In the meantime, you might want to think a little bit about your own discomfort with illness and death. Why is your response to the “distraction” of mortality, a wish that your company would do something so heartless as to force this woman to take unpaid leave?

    13. yikes*

      No one has commented on the C. Diff yet, so I’m going to address that for a minute. Is she coming into work at all with C. Diff, or is she working 100% from home? C. Diff is very, very, very contagious from person to person and it can be serious enough to cause permanent harm to your health – imagine getting e.Coli. (When I got C. Diff, I was shitting blood for 3 weeks straight and I ended up with permanent damage to my digestive system.) If I knew someone was using an office bathroom while contagious with C. Diff, I would consider that a public health hazard for the entire office.

      1. Dontlikeunfairrules*

        That Cdiff issue jumped out at me also. It’s very sad, the situation as a whole and every facet, but I’m sorry – if this poor woman can’t do what closely resembles her job and is this incredibly ill, the company needs to step in. For the woman and the other employees. Everyone.

        Horrible situation but these awful things happen and it sounds like the company should be better suited to do what it should.

  9. Sunday Morning Fever*

    Our new(ish) staffer.

    Yesterday, he told me that a colleague was nervous about a project he (my staffer) was leading. So I gave him some advice. His response: “I agree with that.”

    Then I followed up with another suggestion. His response. “I was thinking of suggesting the same thing.”

    Today, I told him that if someone was going to participate in a project, then we would need to include their information on the presentation as well. His response. “Good call…”

    He’s not a bad guy, but these responses don’t demonstrate any sort of ownership of his projects and I definitely don’t need him to validate my input. I’m having a hard time reconciling these responses and on the superficial side of things, it just really irks me (it does feel a bit mansplain-y to me, I’m his boss and a girl)

    1. CameronT*

      He sounds kind of green (in this role). Hopefully once he gains more confidence through experience, he’ll be able to take more ownership and have better back-and-forths rather than just agreeing with his boss immediately.

      1. Blue*

        Yeah, it reads as pretty insecure to me. Like he lacks confidence but also doesn’t want you to think that he’s completely clueless? I’d probably try asking him questions instead of just giving answers/suggestions in order to get a better feel for his thought process. I think that would show you if he’s clueless, trying to pander, or actually on the right track but looking for confirmation.

        1. Sunday Morning Fever*

          Totally fair point. There are definitely things he’s clueless or lacks confidence about. He would never admit that outright though. I think that’s part of the issue and although, he’s really not overly cocky, I think his responses are meant to hide what he doesn’t know and instead are just rubbing me the wrong way and ignoring the issue (which is kind of — it’s ok to not know everything / ask for help) and that could be a problem down the road.

          1. BethDH*

            This doesn’t read as mansplain-y to me, though I could be wrong if there are other aspects of tone/behavior that you didn’t include explicitly. TBH, it sounds like something I would have done when I was a little younger and thought that not knowing something that was “part of my job” would get me in trouble. Answers 1 & 3 also could just be a slightly unusual way of basically saying “I’ll do that” rather than validating your input. I especially hear “good call” from people I know as a shorthand for “thanks, I would have overlooked that.” They can have the ability to recognize or understand the right answer without having had the ability or confidence to discover it themselves.

          2. Susie Q*

            Do you work in an environment where it is quite obvious that it is okay to not know things? Has this been stated? Because in my past, I’ve worked jobs where you were berated for not knowing things and asking questions which caused me to be very cautious about showing a lack of knowledge. It’s been a hard habit to break in my current role despite now working at a company where asking questions is highly encouraged.

    2. Spreadsheets and Books*

      This seems like a non-issue. It sounds like he’s agreeing with you and deferring to your judgement, and I don’t see any kind of mainsplaining because he’s not explaining anything to you, unless you’re omitting instances of this occurring.

      I don’t know, these all sound like thing I’d say to my supervisor if I agreed with them. Taking ownership as a newish employee isn’t always easy and accepting feedback or suggestions from others, especially management, is a part of learning.

      3. 1234*

        +1 for this. I do this from time to time whenever my boss makes helpful suggestions.

        I viewed this as him asking “Am I on the right track? Should Bob be the one to help with Presentation Y?” rather than him validating that you are suggesting the correct thing.

      4. Fortitude Jones*

        Yeah, I didn’t see anything mansplainy in here either. He sounds like someone who really doesn’t know what he’s doing so is deferring to his boss’s judgment calls. It’s annoying, but if OP stops offering him up suggestions, maybe he’ll be forced to come up with his own ideas.

      5. Rachel*

        I agree — these are all things I say to my manager and coworkers fairly regularly, and all I mean by them is exactly what I’m saying: I do agree, or I do think it’s a good call, or I really was thinking of suggesting the same thing.

      1. Sunday Morning Fever*

        I moved on. I suppose I could have doubled down and told him that he should use such input for future projects, but I don’t want to dictate this guy’s every move and I also don’t believe that kind of planning can be taught. He’s in his late 30s and even though he’s kind of new to the industry, he does have similar experience. I’m sort of at the point where I think I need to identify what his strengths are and focus on that.

        1. BethDH*

          Knowing he’s that old actually changes my opinion on this a little. When I first read it I pictured someone very young. It does still seem there are two separate issues — what he’s actually doing, and how he’s talking about it. It seems like you’re kind of conflating them into the same problem because they occur in the same conversation, but I think the phrasing might not be so annoying if you knew he was just not very verbal about his thought process but was actually taking in the advice and thinking about it beyond the current situation.

          1. Sunday Morning Fever*

            I think they the issues are somewhat related. I think he doesn’t like to admit when he doesn’t know something (based on other situations I’ve had with him) and the responses I get to suggestions/input further emphasize that he’s not willing to acknowledge that he doesn’t know something.

            1. Working Hypothesis*

              That is its own issue, and may be the only real issue involved. The rest is a quirk of speech style, and maybe a slightly annoying one, but probably nothing worse than that. I can see why it’s irritating and feels somewhat mansplainy — it comes across as if he feels he has the right to pass judgment on you and your work, even though you outrank him and actually have the right to pass judgment on his. And in fact, at the moment, you *are* passing judgment on his work… you’re advising him about what he should be doing. So I do get why it’s frustrating.

              At the same time, I think that’s a pretty minor issue and the biggie is that he will not admit when he doesn’t know something. That is a huge problem in most workplaces, where a team has to be able to trust each other to speak up when there’s something they don’t know, without shame or reticence. You may need to speak with him very directly about that, and let him know it is a necessary performance requirement for his position.

    4. T. Boone Pickens*

      I mean…what are you looking for here? Would you prefer he just grunt out a, “yes” or a nod and be done with it? How long has the new hire been in the workforce for? Maybe he’s trying to change up his answers instead of just saying, “ok” all the time?

      1. Sunday Morning Fever*

        I was hoping he would not only agree, but demonstrate how he would use such input for the future. So, if I suggested he use a pen for signing documents instead of pencil, he would not only say I agree with that… but also that he will use pens in the future.

        1. Jules the 3rd*

          So, some people are less verbal than others. Either ask him outright, ‘do you expect to do that in the future’ or just watch how he handles these things next time around. If he uses the advice the next time there’s a contributor who needs to be in the presentation, for example, then let go of the need for him to be verbal about it.

        2. LKW*

          Sounds like you want him to make a leap that you haven’t explicitly asked from him. If you say “Here’s what I have done…” and he says he agrees you can then ask him “How would you frame it for this project? Do you think this would be something you can use for other projects or just this one?”

          Sure, he may be thinking it, but maybe you haven’t presented yourself as someone who wants to hear his thinking process (or maybe he doesn’t like to walk through his thinking process the way you do).

        3. drogon breath*

          That seems really unnecessary, unless there’s evidence of him repeatedly making the same mistakes.

          1. LJay*

            Yeah, if a boss expected me to repeat back to them what they had just said to me in an affirmative statement, it would feel really micromanagey/controlly/condescending to me.

            As it is, for me “Good call” means, “Yeah, I hadn’t thought of that, but it’s a good idea and since you suggested it, that’s what I’m going to do.”

            “I was thinking of suggesting the same thing,” means “That is a good idea and I’m going to do it, and I also want you to know that I had thought of this so you don’t think that I’m completely inept at my job”.

            “I agree,” means, “I agree and I’m going to do that thing.”

            I don’t feel like I need to state these things explicitly because it seems like common sense to me that if I’m agreeing with something I’m going to do it.

            With the caveat that, for me, if I agree but am not going to do the thing I will verbalize that.

            “Good call on making the teapots with green polka-dots, and I wish I had come to you sooner. As it is, we’ve already brought all the supplies for making them solid red, so at this point I think I’m going to go ahead with that plan because buying the green dot supplies on top of the red supplies will blow the budget and the green are unrefundable.”

            “I agree that would be the best way, but I’ve got 3 employees on vacation that week and just don’t have the manpower so I’m going to do this instead.” Etc.

            I would be annoyed if the employee said, “Good call” to “I would use pens to sign the documents,” but continued using pencils without explaining why he was going to continue to use pencils.

        4. Camellia*

          Did he follow through on what you said? I think that’s the first question to answer. If he did, then maybe not mansplainy, just insecure. If he didn’t, then you can address that, and I more believe the mansplainy part.

        5. NW Mossy*

          It sounds like you’re looking for a more engaged, action-oriented response to feedback than he would naturally give. Which, cool, me too, but I don’t think you can assume that a small external reaction means that his internal reaction is small as well.

          I’ve managed a lot of people over the years that just don’t give you a big response on much of anything – their default state is cool-headed and chill even when the world is falling apart around them (think the “This is fine” dog). Initially it can absolutely read as not giving any f’s, which is why it becomes important to pay attention to what they do and say later. If you see clear evidence that they’re incorporating the feedback and making change, mission accomplished! If not, then you can step up the conversation into “hey, you’re not taking the feedback, what’s going on?” space.

          Also, know too that not everyone’s a good on-the-spot planner who hears an idea and can quickly make the leap to “and I’ll apply that here, here, and here.” Think about whether it’s critical that the person make those connections immediately in conversation with you, or if it would also be OK to make those connections a bit later after some processing time.

        6. Eukomos*

          If you want a response like that, you need to tell him so. He’s agreeing with you and he knows in his head that he’s genuinely engaged with your advice; if you need more external signaling that he properly internalized what you said then you need to give him some kind of clue that you want that. The poor guy’s agreeing with his manager’s directives and planning to obey them, it’s understandable that he’d think that’s sufficient.

    5. Policy Wonk*

      I agree this is mansplain-y. I had a similar situation and shut down the “I agree” and “good call” comments with a dry, deadpan “I’m so pleased” or something similar to make clear that I didn’t need his approval, then quickly moved on to asking how he would implement what we discussed.

    6. Susan K*

      Yeah, I think I get why you’re annoyed — he’s acting like he already knew what you told him and that you’re asking for his agreement rather than telling him, as his manager, what to do. This reminds me of some junior employees I have trained, who responded to my correcting them on things they were doing incorrectly, with a brief pause (as though they were considering what I said) followed by, “Ok, feedback accepted.” Because they were doing me a favor by accepting my feedback even though it was my job to teach them the correct way to do this work.

        1. Susan K*

          Most people say something like:
          “Oh, ok, I didn’t know that.”
          “Ok, I’ll do it that way from now on.”
          “Oh, yeah, I’ll do that. Thanks!”

      2. Sunday Morning Fever*

        YES, this is exactly it. I think he doesn’t like to admit when he doesn’t know something or something has gone wrong. He copies and pastes emails he receives into a separate email to me instead of forwarding the email, which I find very odd and something I’m definitely going to have to bring to his attention — again.

    7. Zephy*

      Maybe you both really are just on the same wavelength about this project – that’s not a bad thing. I’d be wary of poking this particular bear, though; do you really want him to argue with you?

    8. Shirley Keeldar*

      The issue isn’t that he’s agreeing with his boss; he should be doing that. The issue is that he’s positioning himself as the superior and her as the subordinate in these interactions. She doesn’t need his agreement (“I agree with that”) or his approval (“good call!”–oooh, that’s really patronizing.) And the thought will pop up in the minds of most female bosses–does this guy do this to men? Would he say, “Good call!” to a male boss?

      Maybe he would–he sounds insecure and as if he needs to proclaim that he doesn’t actually need directions or feedback because he’s thought of it all himself already. But it’s hard to know.

      Tricky to address, though, since it’s so subtle! And Boss doesn’t want to look like she’s micromanaging every word that comes out of his mouth. But, yeah, I’d be annoyed too.

      1. Sunday Morning Fever*

        Honestly, I think he probably would say it to a male boss. The situation is gendered because we’re different genders. But, looking at it in writing, I think this is more of an insecurity thing where he doesn’t want to admit he doesn’t know something or has done something wrong. The thing is that while I totally appreciate insecurity and would support gaining confidence, since he refuses to acknowledge his own, I’m not able to help him with the areas he could use support.

        1. Shirley Keeldar*

          That makes sense. I wonder what would happen if you tried addressing the insecurity directly? Sort of, “Hey, it’s totally normal to get this kind of feedback–I give it to everybody.” Either he’d a) feel reassured and maybe relax a bit with the constant need to prove that he’s already thought of everything, or b) he’d notice that he’s coming across as as insecure and anxious instead of Totally In Control, Thank You! and make a change.

          (Probably not…but good luck!)

        2. matcha123*

          I’m late to this and it may never be read, but I’m in a similar situation. I’m a woman, and I have an older colleague who checks over my work. She rarely ever asks for my input and when she does, I just agree with her. She’s made it clear that she dislikes people younger than she is (or, I’ve picked up that vibe from her based on comments she’s made), she also seems to want some certain kind of response that I’m not interested in giving her. And moreover, she seems to think I’m incompetent or “young” because I don’t give her the responses she desires. I’m mid-30s btw.

          So, I’d take a look at how you are engaging with him. From my side, I have someone who is constantly trying to get me to admit that I don’t know something and that I need their help. Rather than giving me any necessary background on projects, she’ll pull information out at the last moment or make snide comments.

          Not saying that you are doing that.
          Also, you know, if you are telling him this stuff in front of people, maybe take it to a private room or create an environment where he feels comfortable giving feedback. I was raised not to talk back to people in authority. I have been in offices where your job is to always say ‘yes’ or be fired. Maybe stop assuming and just tell him straight up what you want him to do, and how you want him to do it. If something seems obvious to you, you can say that you are going over it to make sure you are both on the same page.

      2. Spreadsheets and Books*

        “Good call” is patronizing?? I’ll regularly say things like “oh, good call” to my boss if she points out something I would have missed or should keep in mind because it *is* a good call out of something I should keep in mind.

        I really, really read this post differently. I don’t see any inclination from the OP that he is acting as her superior in any way. Most people are calling out that, if anything, he’s actually being too passive.

        2. Windchime*

          Yeah, same here. But I’m a woman and so is my boss, so maybe it’s a different situation. I’ve never considered, “Good call” to be patronizing.

        3. That Would be a Good Band Name*

          I’ve never, ever heard “good call” used in any other way than how Spreadsheets and Books says they use it. It’s always a light bulb moment when someone has said it. As in, this did not occur to them and you’ve just opened their eyes to something they totally would have missed.

          Maybe this is a phrase that is more popular than some groups than others?

      3. Commenter*

        Huh, this perspective is interesting to hear!

        I’m a female-presenting person who’s made a recent career switch into the tech industry, and have had all male managers so far, and this is typical language I’ve used to respond to their feedback.

        If they’re mentioning something I did wrong I might respond with something like “Ah I didn’t realize that, thank you!” or “Got it, that makes sense!”

        If it’s more of a suggestion of something more/additional I could do to make something okay even better, I’ve definitely said “Good call!” or “I like that idea, thank you!”

        To me, I’m intending these to mean that I’m acknowledging/understanding their feedback (if I don’t quite understand I’ll ask for clarification first) and that I’m agreeing/accepting this feedback and planning to run with it. Basically the opposite of insubordination? :)

        Is this wording perhaps coming across in a way I’m not intending? Or is this a different situation when the genders are reversed?

        1. hbc*

          You seem to have a mix of statements that include acknowledging that something wasn’t already your idea. It sounds like this guy would never say, “I like that idea” or “I didn’t realize that” or anything that admitted this information is news to him.

    9. First Time Caller*

      Yup, that sounds really annoying. I know one person who would say “That’s correct,” when YOU were the one explaining something you knew more about!

    10. IL JimP*

      as long as he doesn’t take credit for your ideas as his own I would probably take it at face value but as his manager I would probably do some coaching on adding value in conversations because if he really was going to suggest the same thing why didn’t he?

      I recognize though as a guy I likely have a blind-spot so if I’m off base please let me know

      1. LKW*

        Woman saying you’re totally on the mark. This is a coaching opportunity for Sunday Morning.

      2. Peachkins*

        I don’t think you’re off base. I genuinely was not sure what the issue was with the staffer’s responses when I first read the post. I agree that OP needs to tell him what she’s looking for in their conversations, because based on many of the responses on this thread, he’s not the only one clueless that there’s a problem.

        1. IL JimP*

          I can see that for sure, I think she recognizes there’s a problem but can’t quite put her finger on what the actual problem is in this situation. That’s not totally uncommon for any manager after experiencing it enough you get better but definitely not perfect at the diagnosis :)

    11. What's with Today, today?*

      I’m not seeing an issue here. It sounds like y’all are just on the same page.

    12. LGC*

      Okay, so – I initially read this as not really being an issue because he asked for advice and…you gave him good advice. I get that you want to see him take more ownership, but it might just be that he was unsure of something and wanted to confirm it with you before proceeding. Within reason, that’s good!

      But now that I’ve read the other comments, I do have to wonder about a couple of things. Has he done other things that make him seem insubordinate? (Because I think that’s another concern you might have.) Barring that, I personally think that it might just be a mismatch in communication styles. You might have to make it explicit what you need out of him. (I also wonder, if you have any other reports, how they communicate with you in those situations.)

      And sometimes, you might just have to take the win. I have trouble with this myself – I’ll propose something, and then I’ll get a “thank you” or “looks good” in response, and I’m like…”that’s it?! No feedback?” (I can be almost the opposite, and sometimes I have to hold back from saying, “well, I’d have done this, that, and the other” because that would be mansplaining on my end.)

    13. HappySnoopy*

      In future, maybe turn it around on him. Go, well let’s talk through it. What’s your instincts on it? What is your unitial game plan? Intead of feeding him the answer which seems obvious to him in retrospect, spur his thought process so you can steer him to yeah youre on the correct path, or did you think about impact to x y to redirect him.

      That way you’re in the confirming seat, and hopefully helping his confidence level that he’ll stop running to you for the answer.

    14. Not So NewReader*

      If this is just one instance, then I think I would let it go.
      But if he had these responses to everything, then I’d have a chat.

      “It sounds like you think I am looking for people’s validation here. I’m not. I am simply telling you what the next steps are. Typically, saying things such as ‘good call’ or ‘I was thinking of suggesting the same thing’ indicate that that the speaker is talking to a peer. I am not your peer. It’s fine to say, ‘Oh, good, I am glad to know I am looking at this right.’ Or, ‘I really like your advice/instruction here, and I will definitely do this.’ If you want, you can add that he can mention specific concerns if he has any.

      See, you don’t want to cut anyone off from expressing relief/happiness that you are doing a good job/being fair/etc. So redirect the comment to what they can say.

      It took me a bit, but I worked things around to where I could say, “No. I am wearing my boss hat here and here is how I want us to handle this situation.” I could say it in my usual speaking voice and no one keeled over on me. From my end of the story, it helped me to be comfortable in my status as a boss. The more comfortable I was and I knew I would handle whatever came at me, helped me to speak up more in situations like this.

      You can use this, too: “No, that was not a suggestion, it’s what I am asking you to do going forward.”

      I also realized that there was something in the way that I was speaking that lead people to believe I was making suggestions and not giving instructions. I would preface statements sometimes with, “We need to……”. It kind of gave people a heads up that I was talking as a boss.

      1. Eukomos*

        That would really rub me the wrong way if my boss said something like that to me. This is possibly because she’s a micromanager more generally, but if her level of demanded control extended all the way to the exact words I’m permitted to use to agree with her this job would get even more soul crushing. This is a person who stands behind me and directs which emails I can open on some days so maybe I’m oversensetized, but even at work people deserve a little autonomy.

    15. Sunday Morning Fever*

      Thanks y’all. As I’ve read through the comments the one thing that I should have mentioned and didn’t is that I do have some issues with my staffer beyond how he responds to me. He does seem to require explicit instructions and yet other times will do things without counsel at all. This has led to a number of confusing situations where i’ve had to both ask numerous questions to figure out what has happened (which he’ll answer) or ask him to share details with me, which he’ll share without context or in sections. (I’ve asked him to send me an email and he has literally copied and pasted the most recent response and sent it to me under separate cover.) There are times when he’s told me he’s said something or said he knows something, but clearly didn’t. None of these instances were significant in and of themselves and usually they were quite insignificant, which has made it difficult to pull them aside and formulate an entire conversation around them.

      I don’t think it’s a malignant attempt at deceiving. I think he’s afraid of people thinking he doesn’t know something and I also think he’s not very strategic (or tactful). Both of those things together are certainly worrisome and they make me super aware of how he responds to things. When he agrees with me or tells me something is a good call after I give him my input/recommendation – it basically reinforces something that I’m already uncomfortable with — that he’s not willing to acknowledge he doesn’t know something. This lack of acknowledgement means that I’m not sure what he really does know or what he needs help with and in the end that impedes my ability to trust his decision and actions.

      Sorry, my little vent turned into a psychological study. Perhaps I’m being oversensitive, being a manager is not something I enjoy or that I think I’m particularly good at. (Though I do try my darndest to encourage, praise, and support my staff — new guy included).

      Anyway, thanks for the insight. I’m not quite sure where I’ll take it from here, but you’ve all given me lots to consider.

      1. Not So NewReader*

        I think you have a good handle on the overarching problem.

        Employees do need to sometimes be told how much range they have, what they can and cannot decide on their own.
        At the same time he also has a problem understanding your questions. I think it is good to lay out rules of thumb. “Bob, when I ask you for an email, I mean for you to send me the whole email, not just the most recent reply.”

        I had to do a lot of this stuff because we always had new people. They get nervous and obvious stuff gets by them.

        I think break this into a two part approach. One, teach him how much lead he has to make decisions on his own and when he should come to you. Second, give him rules of thumb that he can use over and over again. As you are thinking about decision making and thinking about rules of thumb you can form a structure that the rest of your group follows also.

        I want to encourage you about that thinking you’re not a good manager. In saying that, this gives you a leg up on many managers who think they are great and aren’t. Being willing to discuss a problem and learn is absolutely huge, it’s something a manager has to do. Bad or poor managers refuse to do this. And you are doing it. So that already makes you a better manager than many out there. Eh, it’s not in your genes from birth, so you just decide to learn as you go along.

        Keep reading AAM. You might benefit from learning more about your boundaries as a boss. I had to figure out what were my hills to die on. My people could not be late, that came from TPTB. So I simply relayed “No tardiness!” Other things I had some discretion on. I allowed them to alter their work flows but they had to ask me first. (This made my bosses break out in hives and itch all over. When productivity doubled, the bosses left me alone. The employees knew what they were doing and I could see that.)

        You don’t carve out a your path as a boss in one day or even one year. It takes time. Go one situation at a time and figure out how you want to handle it. Yeah, this is a slow way of doing things and stuff might get by ya. But it won’t get by ya the second time it happens, you will pick up on it and act.

      2. AliV*

        Have you made it clear to him that it’s okay to say “I don’t know”? Have you demonstrated to him (by, say, the way you’ve reacted to other colleagues in a meeting) that you’d welcome that acknowledgment of a gap in understanding?

        Cause if he’s going to be punished for not knowing something I don’t blame him for not wanting to speak up!

        1. Sunday Morning Fever*

          If he feels he’ll be punished for not knowing something, it’s not from me. I have no problem admitting it myself and have said “I don’t know” or some variation to him before. I told him when he started that the organization is a big place and that there’s a lot to learn and he can totally use the fact that he’s new to stall or get more information. So, no… I don’t think that’s the problem.

          1. AliV*

            Hmm. That doesn’t sound like a clear communication of “I’d much rather you say that you don’t know than try to cover.”

          2. Rose by another name*

            As a junior employee in a similar situation, I find express permission to say “I don’t know” very helpful; thanks for doing that. (I try to follow it up by saying where I’ll look to find out, but that’s a work in progress.)

            As to the responses like “good call,” it’s hard to avoid sounding like a peer when discussing any assignment that involves nailing down details I have responsibility for, or that are fresher in my mind. I try to say “thanks, I’ll do that!” or “I see your reasoning,” or something else that indicates I’m on board and have a positive attitude, and am not just passively accepting corrections without thinking about the underlying reasoning/future applications. But if the listener isn’t being charitable, there’s minimal space between being passive and not taking ownership of work, and being challenging or overconfident.

            You sound like you’re assuming the best, and mention other issues upthread that color perception. But I figured sharing the perspective of someone on the other end of these interactions who tries to be very conscious of those issues (but doesn’t always succeed) could help.

      3. LGC*

        …I don’t think you’re being overly sensitive, with this new information!

        But seriously though, I think it is worth addressing his communication style with him. It sounds like it’s already causing issues with his work, and it also sounds like your real concern is about his competence. (The agreement thing sounds like it’s an annoying proxy for that.)

        For what it’s worth, I think a lot of people – and yeah, dudes especially – are insecure about not knowing things, and that’s just inherent. It sounds like you’re doing well with him, but what might be the solution is…him becoming competent.

      4. Budgie Buddy*

        “He does seem to require explicit instructions and yet other times will do things without counsel at all.”

        Is it possible that from his perspective he’s been told to take more initiative but also found he messes up when he tries to do so? It seems like he is not able to discern when to take initiative and when to ask for guidance first, leading to confusion all around.

        He may also be confused on when you want an email thread versus a specific email. I might also forward one email out of a long chain if I thought my boss just wanted the first one rather than the whole exchange.

        This is not to excuse his performance issues, just to possibly help pinpoint where things might be going off the rails.

    16. Lena Clare*

      That’s not mansplainy to me, but youre in the situation and you feel how you feel. In fact I’d say it feels like the opposite of mansplaining. He’s not “We’ll actually-ing” you to correct your area of expertise when he knows nothing about it, he’s deferring to you as his boss by the sounds of it. That speaks to me of insecurity.
      Just a point of interest – why not call yourself a woman instead of a girl?

      1. Lena Clare*

        Huh I’ve just read the other comments you made – seems more complex than I initially assumed!

      2. Sunday Morning Fever*

        Perhaps there’s a psychological equivalent to me using the word girl instead of woman. Or it was a simple attempt to lighten my mood. Or I was channeling Gwen Stefani and being a girl in the world. But, to be quite frank, it’s just a word I used and use. It’s not a point of interest for me.

    17. Argye*

      This took me a while to answer, because the question irritated me in ways that I can’t really explain. I think that’s because I’ve had the experience of having a manager who wanted me to take risks and ownership of projects while always doing things the way she would and remaining appropriately subservient. For the record, she was hired into a new position above me, when I had previously reported directly to the CEO, and had massive latitude. (I’m describing the former manager, not the OP. OP, this may or may not describe you to any extent, but take from it whatever may apply.)
      Manager: You should ask questions if you don’t know something.
      Me: Asks question to humor her.
      Manager: *heavy sigh* You should know this by now.

      Manager: Let me see project description before you send it out, and I’ll edit. Use whatever edits you like and ignore the rest.
      Me: Uses some edits, not all.
      Manager: I don’t know why I bother editing if you’re not going to use my suggestions! Let me see the next project!
      Me: Uses all edits, completely changing voice and project description.
      Manager: You need to take ownership and initiative! I can’t continue to do everything for you!
      Me: Submits new project without sending to Manager again.
      CEO: I’m hearing that you’re being insubordinate.

      It took about 3 years to realize that I could do absolutely nothing right in her eyes. I was either too weak or too strong. Too subordinate or too insubordinate. There was *no* sweet spot. And she had no problem demonstrating her complete contempt for me in front of other faculty and even students. She didn’t treat the other faculty (all male – I am female) the same way. He expectations for me were infinite – for them, they were perfectly reasonable. The other faculty also picked up on this and started treating me like pond scum, too. (Including one horrific meeting where one of the other faculty interrupted me every time I opened my mouth, so that I couldn’t make a comment. This went on for 5 minutes. Manager giggled. I wish I had stormed out, but I didn’t.)
      After about 3 years of this, I just plain gave up and pretty much stopped doing anything. It was pure learned helplessness – when everything you can do leads to pain, why do anything?
      I was laid off – it was a relief.
      OP – I’m not saying you’re anywhere close to as horrible as my former manager. But, I would strongly suggest you have a mental image of what you and your report working together well would look like. What would be a good conversation? What is the right amount of questions for him to ask? Is there expertise that he has that you can rely on? Clearly, he knows *something*. It would have meant a ton for me for my former manager to acknowledge that I was an expert in a field that was adjacent to hers, and really wasn’t the complete idiot she treated me as. As it was, she didn’t say a single positive thing to me for the entire 5 years I worked for her.
      NOTE: Former manager and I are both female. The male faculty were treated noticeably better by her, to the extent that people in other departments remarked on it. However, she was determined to “mentor” me, whether I liked it or needed it or not.

      1. Sunday Morning Fever*

        I’m not sure the situations are similar. I’m sorry you had a passive-aggressive, insecure, bully as a manager. And I’m open to admitting my own flaws. I have my days of insecurity and being stubborn. But, when he works on a project and I have edits or suggestions, he takes them into account. I don’t always agree with his choices, but when I don’t I engage him with follow-up questions. I have l literally never told him he “should” know something or berated him for not knowing something, which is why I have a hard time figuring out why he’s so averse to admitting he doesn’t know something. If I’ve made a mistake in my recommendations to him, I tell him. When I need him to do something, I ask him to do it or ask him if he’s done it. When he does something well, I tell him great job or tell him why it’s great. I don’t doubt he knows *something*.

        My initial post was not about what he doesn’t know, it was about his inability to state that he doesn’t know, which isn’t to say that I think he knows nothing. It’s to say, if he’s asking for my advice and he tells me he
        agrees or that he was thinking the same thing, then he’s taking ownership of the advice I’m giving him. Now, that might mean that when he asks for my advice, I need to ask him what he wants to do or what he thinks we should do before suggesting something. Which is something I’ll have to do from now on to stop being frustrated. But to be quite frank, I don’t feel the need to be his mentor and I don’t need him to proclaim me the smartest person ever. Heck, he can even disagree with me and I’m open to having a discussion about the best way to move forward. But, I’m sorry — I’m really not seeing the parallels.

        1. Argye*

          Sorry, I got carried away with recounting horrors and my point got lost.
          My main point – picture how you want this relationship to look. What are you wanting from him in interactions? What do you want to provide? What does both sides “winning” look like to you?
          Once you have that clear for yourself – and maybe you already do – it may be easier to clarify to him what your expectations are, i.e., “I need you to be clearer with me about where you need further info.” or “Have you gone over the requirements for the project, and have everything you need?”
          Something about expectations isn’t being communicated well, either because you’re not explaining well, or that he’s not hearing what you’re trying to explain, and you need to try a slightly different method.

    18. Novocastriart*

      Poor guy. His new (ish) boss is giving him advice (apparently not earth shattering stuff, because he’s already considered those things) and he is doing his best to acknowledge the contribution (because he asked for advice, and you gave it). He’s being polite. Don’t borrow trouble, and look for offence where there isn’t any.

      1. Sunday Morning Fever*

        I’m not offended, I’m irritated. I’m glad he’s agreeing with me, but I’d rather him offer up these solutions (or others) when asking for my advice rather than tell me he thought of them after I say them.

        1. matcha123*

          I don’t know about him, but when I’m given a “suggestion” and I say “I thought of that,” I actually did think of that. The reason I didn’t use it was because I figured “you” would discount it.

    19. Sister of the Idea Gal*

      I have a family member business partner who, no matter what I (or others) start working on, makes comments similar to: “I already thought about that. It was my idea. Don’t you remember me telling you that a year ago?” My opinion is ideas are “a dime a dozen”. Virtually everyone has many ideas that go nowhere. What matters to me is what people do with an idea — do they actually make it happen? It gets kind of exhausting always having to validate her for “her” ideas, which I almost never recall her having actually said.

      1. Sister of the Idea Gal*

        OP, in the case of your employee, I suspect his way of communicating isn’t about you. It sounds like you’ve done everything to make it safe for him to admit if he doesn’t know something, but he still won’t do so. My guess is that he has worked in another situation where it wasn’t okay to admit he didn’t know something. Or (who knows?) it might even go back to childhood and having to communicate this way to avoid getting in trouble.

    20. Susie Q*

      I’m think you’re overreaching on the mansplaining.

      His response just seem like generic responses of someone who doesn’t want to come off looking stupid or he didn’t know something. There is a good chance at a previous job his boss required him to constantly agree with the boss and he’d be punished for not knowing something. A lot of us have baggage from previous terrible workplaces and bosses. He sounds like he is new to the job, not highly confident in his knowledge, and is worried about appearing incompetent.

  10. AnonMarketer*

    I applied for a position, and did two rounds of interviews. I was told I was a finalist for the position and I’d hear back at the beginning of the week. Since then it’s been radio silence. I’m heartbroken. What do I do now? Leave it and move on? Shoot them a message? Both? I just feel it’s really unfortunate, as a finalist, I can’t be kept up to date on my application status, but I don’t know what the appropriate protocol here is. :(

    1. merp*

      General advice around here is don’t panic, hiring takes longer than anyone expects sometimes. Give them a week or 10 days from when they said they would get back to you, contact them once, and do your best to write them off in your head. Easier said than done, but…

      Good luck, though, I hope you get good news!

    2. londonedit*

      I think it’s fine to send them a brief message saying that you really appreciated them taking the time to meet you, and you were wondering whether any further progress had been made with the hiring process. Maybe wait until Monday? Not sure about where you are, but the UK and US had a holiday this past Monday, and the schools are on a week-long break where I am, which means loads of people have been out of the office. Could be something like that delaying the process. Any reasonable company would reply – just don’t send them loads of messages badgering them for info! I think if they don’t respond to your email, you can probably assume you haven’t got the job (and that they’re fairly rude for not letting you know that), but it would be worth giving them one email nudge on Monday and seeing what they say.

    3. Anonymous Educator*

      If they said they’d let you know by the beginning of this week, wait until the beginning of next week and just check in with them then.

    4. stefanielaine*

      They said the beginning of the week and it’s now first thing Friday morning – that’s only 2 or 3 extra days. Maybe someone’s out sick or maybe they forgot they needed one more person’s approval. Do not email them. Even as a finalist, it is not reasonable to expect daily updates. As AG says, if they want to hire you, they’re not going to forget to. Take a deep breath, or several, and keep yourself distracted until you hear back!

    5. ClosedWindow*

      Hi! I just want to sympathize because our situations are so close! I interviewed at a place recently that asked me to send them references last Monday. They said they’d contact me early this week after they spoke to my references. So, this week, I’ve been seesawing back and forth between eagerly checking my e-mail multiple times within an hour and avoiding/dreading opening my e-mail. I seriously need a job and have been job hunting for a year and a half, so rejections are starting to induce tears.

      I understand being heartbroken by radio silence since it seems like implied rejection. :( I know Monday was a holiday, and they’re busy, and maybe it’s taking a while to contact my references (if they’re really contacting them…no one has said anything about being contacted). But it’s so hard to just let it go when you have so much hope pinned on it.

    6. 1234*

      I would move on. You don’t have the job until you’ve accepted/signed an offer. It sounds cold, but I always assume I don’t have the job unless I’m told otherwise.

    7. Anona*

      I wouldn’t be heartbroken. Their decision process is taking longer than they thought. In almost every position I’ve hired for this has happened. I would just wait, and assume that you didn’t get the position, but hope that you did. I wouldn’t contact them. A week isn’t very long (though I know it feels like it is!). I’d wait at least another week, and then if you want to send a final message asking for an update, you can do that. But if they’re hiring you’ll, they’ll eventually let you know. It just takes a long time. They could be reference checking/waiting to get the team back together to make a decisions/finishing interviewing etc.

    8. ATX Language Learner*

      Please don’t be heartbroken! Hiring always takes way longer than anyone thinks. Here’s an example: we recently hired a woman that started on April 8thish. We first interviewed her via phone on 1/25, then in person on 2/7. My boss and I loved her but his boss was unsure and said she seemed green. As this was the first person we interviewed for this position, grand boss wanted us to interview other people. We finally offered her the position around March 18th, nearly 8 weeks after her first interview.

      As a candidate, I always feel like people should stay true to their word (if they say they will follow up by x date, then they should) but being on the other side of hiring it’s just not that simple. People get busy, they go out of town on personal/work travel, they can’t sync up with the right people to discuss interviews. All of that combined with HR – it makes hiring twice or 3x as long as the interviewer says.

  11. BRR*

    I encountered the first ridiculous request in my job hunt. An employer wants to schedule a phone interview and asked me to respond to 18 questions in writing prior to the phone interview. They’re all on the longer side and range from how did you get into this field to tell me about a time when you had to be a visionary thinker and what are the key ingredients for successful business relationships (and give examples of how I’ve used them).

    Because I have a really good response rate to my applications, wasn’t crazy about this role to begin with, and the commute would be a nightmare, I’m planning on withdrawing my application and want to let them know how ridiculous it is to ask this. This would take probably a few hours, these should be in-person interview questions, and this is incredibly unusual for this type of position.

    I was planning on saying that while i’m interested, I am not able to invest such a large amount of time so early in a hiring process. Is that polite but gets the point across? I’m ok being a little more pointed and don’t really care if it burns a bridge with this employer. I really want this to be the hill I die on with them.

    3. Anon 9*

      You are in a great position that you don’t want this job and are ok burning a bridge if it comes to that. Your response is very professional, and you would be doing them (and future applicants) a favor if you called them out on this nonsense! Please do send that email :)

    4. The Man, Becky Lynch*

      18 questions!? Good grief, good luck to them finding a person who is desperate enough to go through that nonsense. Run gurl, run! I’m glad you’re withdrawing.

      I’ve only seen a few questions being asked in roles that regularly do not come with cover letters. So they get a response of “Tell me why you’re interested in this role? What excites you most about goats?” then they offer a phone screen at that point. But just yikes yikes yikes this is over the top.

      1. BRR*

        Another non-selling point is that I imagine top candidates have more options and don’t want to go through this so my coworkers wouldn’t all be the best? I just find this so dumb. As someone else pointed out, the answers are pointless because they’re going to be so scripted and candidates could easily have someone else write their answers.

        1. The Man, Becky Lynch*

          That’s absolutely true.

          That’s up there with other practices that weed out your good candidates, like overly aggressive job ads that pound home that they’ve had problems finding people who are reliable “Must show up! Every day!” and “Make sure you mention kumquats in your cover letter so we know you are paying attention to details!” No, just no.

        2. Fortitude Jones*

          Yup – top candidates would not need to put up with something like this, which isn’t to say that the people working there are bottom of the barrel, just probably average. And who knows, maybe it’s just a quirk of this particular hiring manager and not indicative of the company as a whole. Still, I wouldn’t bother moving forward. I hate wasting my time on stupid stuff like this. You’re absolutely right that these are interview questions.

      2. Double A*

        Ha, I finished putting together an application with a cover letter and all the bells and whistles, and then on the submission form was ONE required question about “What inspired you to become a llama groomer” and because I wasn’t happy about having to job hunt and kind of ambivalent about the job I almost didn’t submit the application. 18 questions, no way!

    5. KEG*

      Weird. I agree these should be interview questions. Maybe tweak what you’re going to say a little include that point, like “I’m interested in the position, but I’m not able to invest such a large amount of time so early in the hiring process. I’d be happy to use the questions you provided as talking points for our interview instead.”

    6. zora*

      I would be a tiny bit more specific. ‘These questions would take me a few hours to answer, and I am not able to invest that kind of time in this hiring process before an interview.” They sound clueless and might not get what you mean about ‘large amount of time’ unless you spell it out.

      But I agree, and good for you!!

    7. Not So NewReader*

      They are unwittingly weeding out the confident people right away.

      Good for you, BRR. Good luck as you continue to search.

    8. Public Sector Manager*

      If it was 2-3 questions in writing plus a phone interview, then so be it. But 18 questions?!? That’s too much!

      I say go for it. For the visionary thinker part of it, you could tell them about the vision you had after reviewing the 18 questions–your boot kicking their butt.

    9. JobHunter*

      Wow. Eighteen questions is incredible. I once backed out of an application that required seven questions, (answer with 2-4 complete sentences each).

    1. lawschoolmorelikeblawschool*

      Um, why did you keep reading past the first sentence, and also, it was barely a spoiler, unless you consider knowing one character in a tv show is pregnant a spoiler . . . which I don’t.

      1. My cat is my alarm clock*

        Because I was scrolling down and I saw it before I could avoid it. You said yourself that it’s a spoiler. It’s just plain considerate not to put that in a top-level comment.

      2. buttrue???*

        Yeah, this isn’t really a spoiler exactly because it was just business as usual and not pat of the story line/plot.

      3. anonymoushiker*

        For those of us who are fast skimmers, sometimes it’s very hard to avoid spoilers by just stopping reading.

        1. Don’t spoil it*

          Agreed, especially when there’s only one line gap between the spoiler warning and the actual spoiler

        2. Rusty Shackelford*

          Apparently some people read word-by-word, and some people read in chunks. And if you read in chunks, it’s basically impossible to stop reading at the word “spoiler” because you’re already past that point by the time it registers.

    2. The Man, Becky Lynch*

      This is better off in tomorrow’s thread…this has nothing to do with work, unless you work on the set, even then it’s a stretch.

  13. Side hustle look back*

    I think I made a mistake the other day by expressing enthusiasm for a fellowship program that would pay me full time to pursue my creative sidehustle. My boss was within hearing a the time and I wish I hadn’t said anything. I have almost no chance of winning a fellowship like that and I don’t want my boss to feel like I’m not committed to advancing in my job. Do you guys think this was a faux pas? If you heard an employee say something suggesting they were going to apply would you think less of their commitment?

    1. A Simple Narwhal*

      Meh, unless you said something super explicit about not wanting to work here I think you’d be ok. I’d take it as something akin to talking about buying lottery tickets, or the latest “this company totally wants to pay people to travel and drink and relax, wouldn’t that be nice” type of thing.

      If you’re really worried or if you said something that truly sounded like you were applying to GTFO asap you could always sit down with your boss and explain that you’re committed to staying here and advancing your career. But honestly unless they start acting weird or you have a crazy boss I don’t think you need to do anything.

    2. WritingWoes*

      I think it depends on the context! Was this something you brought up, or were you reacting to something that someone else mentioned? If you had said something like “I’ve been looking for fellowships that would allow me to quit my job,” that’s different than someone bringing it up and you saying “that sounds cool!” or even you bringing it up in a “hey, doesn’t this sound fun?” kind of way.

      But overall I think everyone would rather be paid to pursue their passions than work a day job, so your boss probably didn’t take it too seriously. If your boss was only within hearing distance, they might not have been actively listening anyway!

      1. Side hustle look back*

        I totally brought it up to a coworker, not realizing my boss was behind me. I think I suggested I was going to apply which is why I’m cringing, not just “isn’t it cool that this exists” – but, it’s like the McArthur genius grant, like sure you can go ahead and apply but it’s not any more likely than winning the lotto. I just worry my boss might not have that context.

        1. Not So NewReader*

          I was thinking lottery tickets then you wrote lotto. ha! It’s a good analogy, use it when you say something to the boss. A good boss would cheer you on or a bad boss would hold it against you. I think your boss might be in the middle somewhere? Just start by saying, “I wanted to give you background on what you heard me say the other day…”

    3. 1234*

      Did your boss say anything to you about the fellowship program? If not, I would just move on and not bring it up.

    4. LKW*

      I think it depends on the boss. If your boss takes resignations personally and is a Michael-Scott-ish person then do a bit of damage control.

      If your boss is normal and understands that everyone has their own motivations and goals beyond the office – then ignore and move on.

    5. Batgirl*

      I think it’s healthy for them to realise they don’t own you permanently. Loyalty? *shudders* I work for a wage, not the feudal system.

      If he is a bit banana-crackers/self important then maybe drop some red herrings into the conversation like “I’d also like to be a pirate!” Or “Do you get a gold clock when you retire from here? I kind of want one”. But having plans and a general sense of personal freedom is not a faux pas unless you’re deliberately going on at him about wishing yourself elsewhere.

      Also! Congratulate yourself that on realising you were being overheard by the wrong audience you didn’t start digging a verbal hole and over explaining yourself a la nineties sitcom Ellen; which is what I would have done.

  14. krysb*

    So, I’ve decided to at least look for a new job. I’ve been with my company for 8 years and have worked up from lower level positions into some form of management, and was a supervisor for 5 years. This is my second professional job, but I’ve also worked in customer service/retail/food service and factory positions (not that this is pertinent to my job search, but I think they’ve shaped me personally). Ideally, I would like to stay within my industry, or a similar industry, but I don’t know how possible that is, as it’s a weird hybrid of legal and tech. I love the field, though. Ideally, I would go into legal operations, but it seems like those roles are not a thing yet; firms and companies with legal departments aren’t intentionally hiring non-lawyers for such that I’ve found. I’m graduating this year with a degree in business administration with concentrations in human resources management and operations management.

    But, this is giving me anxiety. I’ve introduced a lot of things into my position that are measurable and results-driven, but almost all of these things are self-taught and probably not the best process/functions. This makes me wonder how well I’d be able to translate to other, higher level jobs; technically, it’s legitimate experience, but it’s such a hodgepodge of stuff put together by myself. How can I take this experience and use it without ending up looking incompetent with an organization that may have more legitimate processes and functions? I would have to be able to use this information in order to seek the level of employment I need in order to further my career and make sure my bills are paid (those student loans will be coming due soon, and that’s a bill I can’t afford anymore – though when I started I could, but then I had to emergency-buy a house instead of living rent-free).

    I did recently purchase Alison’s How to Get a Job and will be spending the weekend pouring over it. I’ve got my references lined up, including bosses, current and former coworkers, and former bosses (including a former VP), all from/within my current organization (though one was a coworker at my last professional job, as well). I’m looking at job descriptions and am trying to suss out my weaknesses to see where I can improve, but this again relies on self-learning that I’m not sure I can qualify/quantify, even if I bring any knowledge into use at my organization.

    Any thoughts, ideas, and comments would be fully appreciated.

    1. krysb*

      Oh, I also have copies of my past 2 evaluations to at least show how well my company thinks of me to reference, if necessary.

    2. Mockingjay*

      Are there certifications in your field that might be helpful? There are tons of tech industry certs in all types of processes these days. The advantage is that these can be obtained in a relatively short period, and most are reasonable cost (meaning not cheap, but not requiring a student loan). Combining a cert with demonstrated experience would boost your resume significantly.

      1. krysb*

        Not really. Most certs in my field are software-based. And I don’t meet the requirements of most professional organizations and/or those organizations aren’t really pertinent to me. For example, I can join an HR prof org, but I don’t work in or plan to work in HR (weird because it’s my major, but I actually chose it because, in my opinion, it and ops management are heavily linked); most ops mgmt prof orgs are for manufacturing; CLOC, which is specific to legal operations requires a person to work in a legal position within an organization or be a law or graduate student.

    3. Officious Intermeddler*

      How flexible are you with location? I do think in many markets, law firms (even small or regional ones) and in-house legal departments are hiring legal ops professionals. It’s new for sure, but I know enough working legal ops pros that I think you might have some luck in a broad geographic search.

      1. krysb*

        I currently work in a metro area with a number of corporations with legal departments and firms, but… nothing. I can expand my search, but there would have to be a massive benefit for moving, in addition to taking into account differences in cost of living (I live in a relatively low COL area).

    4. LKW*

      Are you talking about Legal Discovery and Legal Reviews because there are many firms that supply law firms with services. If so, yes most law firms don’t hire this kind of service directly, the outsource. However believe me when I say you don’t want to work directly for a law firm if you’re not an attorney.

      1. Fortitude Jones*

        Preach. I did for nearly three years, and it was a nightmare. Then again, our attorneys said the same thing – our firm just sucked.

      2. krysb*

        I currently work in lit support, at an organization that focuses on (on our side) e-discovery, document digitizing, and computer forensics; the other side is managed review and attorneys-on-demand. I believe that our managed review, review management (yes these are different things), and project management are mostly attorneys, with very few exceptions.

        1. LKW*

          Did this for several years, and agree that for the most part, review is attorney driven and managed. Within a law firm you’re not going to have a career unless you are a licensed attorney who has moved into this area. An in house Lit Support management team will almost always be led by an attorney. Why not go to another consulting firm – there are plenty out there. They don’t require attorneys, just the ability to schmooze with attorneys, show them deference when deference is called and kick them in the ass when ass-kicking is needed.

    5. The Man, Becky Lynch*

      You should stop downplaying your self-taught skills and assuming they’re “wrong” or misguided.

      I say this due to the fact that I came up that way as well, everything was thrown at me and I caught it, juggled it and mastered it. It was a welcomed surprise when I went to some professional development workshops to check my knowledge out and see if I was on par with what was expected. It turns out that I’ve done a lot of things not only right but better than what they would have “taught” you to do it in school or formal training.

      The actual work experience and showing how you’ve put things together is perfect for showing people your ability to be creative and understand processes without actual instruction.

      1. Snarktini*

        Agreed. I had formal training but my work had drifted towards a tangential field that I was groping my way through, intuitively — and since I was also solo self-employed I didn’t even have the benefit of a workplace or team to learn with. It was just me, figuring things out and teaching myself. When I realized I wanted to move formally into that field, I felt like I needed to get an MBA to get credibility and a formal tool set. During my MBA I did learn some awesome new skills, but I also learned that I was doing pretty well already! My self-taught skills were not inferior at all. I don’t at all regret going back to school, but it would have been nice to know I didn’t need to.

    6. higheredrefugee*

      I work in this field right now, and I’d start with some basic informational interviewing, because while you’ll see some postings for jobs you’re talking about looking for a JD, if you have enough knowledge of legal processes, this can be overcome. Even in a metro as large as Chicago, I’ve seen people hired into roles you’re talking about that were never posted, but would help either a corporation or a law firm solve various process issues for them. You may need to be also looking at Corporate Responsibility offices, which sometimes oversee not only the corporate giving/green initiatives/values of the organization, but sometimes also have compliance and regulatory functions that are pseudo-legal. In other corporations, you’re looking at their Legal Departments, which are increasingly taking on those compliance and regulatory functions directly in their structures. Other places that are looking for similar skill sets are financial industries and health care, though the titles vary widely.

      Also, as for all the great things you’ve already done, that’s a huge strength in showing initiative, flexibility, and resourcefulness. You can admit that you’ve been tasked with solving problems without clear solutions, and you’re looking forward to working within a larger organization where you have the opportunity to dive more deeply into best practices and be actively supported in your own professional development (there are more and more legal tech conferences all the time).

      Finally, as for your student loans, I hope they are mostly federal, as that will give you more payment options and flexibility. I would NOT recommend converting them to a private lender for at least two years so that you have the flexibility of forbearance and other rights and options that the federal loans have. This is a source I trust but their focus is on Public Service Loan Forgiveness, but there are other resources that talk about the payment options that help you with breathing room when you first graduate: https://www.equaljusticeworks.org/law-students/student-debt-resources/

      Good luck!

    7. krysb*

      Another question for the hive mind re: resumes. Like many, most of my best info comes from one job. How much info is too much info? I mean, I’ve worked at 4 different positions within my department operator, lead, supervisor, and my current position that I don’t even know how to describe (my title is “Lieutenant Commander” because I work at a hipster company). However, some of my responsibilities – primarily technical and project work – have been my responsibilities for lead, supervisor, and current; my current position is basically my supervisor position, minus the actual supervision of employees, as I had added a whole lot to that position (mostly dealing with processes, finding ways to attract customers, metrics, and other higher-level tasks), then had to start spinning tasks off to others. Technically, my project responsibilities are not part of my current job, but I’m the only one capable of performing them – and they make up 75% of my department’s average revenue.

      tl;dr, how do you guys delineate tasks and task types in regards to multiple positions with overlapping responsibilities?

      1. Jules the 3rd*

        This is the norm for my employer, and what you do is demonstrate your steadily growing responsibilities:

        Employer (start date – present)
        Lt Commander (start date – present)
        1 line role description (ok, maybe 2 would be needed for that role title)
        Accomplishments / etc (Managed projects valued at $; implemented metrics measuring x, y; Grew customer base z%)

        Dept Supervisor (start date – end date)
        Accomplishments (managed # people, etc)

        Dept Lead (start date – end date)
        Accomplishments (optional)

        Dept operator (start date – end date)
        Accomplishments (optional)

        The other titles are common enough that you probably don’t need to describe them; you can use your accomplishments to give more details about the kind of work you / your company do (eg, managed implementation of ERP software for fortune 500 customers from sale to sign-off) or tech you know.

      2. Jules the 3rd*

        You mention the overlapping responsibilities in the most recent role, but put the focus on accomplishments.

  15. More Anonymous Than Usual*

    Is it weird for an organization to not, as a matter of policy, ask for or check references? I don’t mean they were in a rush to hire and so just didn’t have the time to do their due diligence one time—I mean as a matter of policy, they just don’t.

    I interviewed somewhere. Loved it there. Loved the people there. Hope I get the job. But the HR person said they just never check references or ask for them.

    I mean, if it’s working for them, great. But it seems that would leave them very open to people who are smooth-talking interviewees but just full of BS, no?

    1. AnonMarketer*

      Depends on the organization! I’ve had two jobs that didn’t check references; both were smaller startups. People were still high caliber, and I kind of look askance at references anyways as many are hesitant to give bad ones.

    2. LaDeeDa*

      My company doesn’t check references, they verify past employment but do not call references or even ask for them. In fact the last 3 companies I worked for don’t and the few positions I have been offered (but eventually turned down) this last year never asked for references.
      I am always shocked at the number of people here who say it is done- because really, what is the point? No one puts a reference down who isn’t going to give them a good reference, and people lie about the relationship to the reference. Many companies (mine included) forbid current employees from being a reference to an existing or former employee who they managed, we have to refer the caller to HR and all HR will do is verify employment.

      1. Librarian of SHIELD*

        TONS of people put together reference lists that include people who won’t or can’t give a good reference. A lot of people don’t know that you should check with people before you name them as references. As a result, I’ve done a lot of reference checks with people’s former bosses and colleagues who don’t have very good things to say.

        1. More Anonymous Than Usual*

          I’ve done a lot of reference checks with people’s former bosses and colleagues who don’t have very good things to say.

          This is the very point of checking references, though. Not “Give me a list of people who like you” but “I want to talk to your former supervisors to get different perspectives on your past work.”

          1. Autumnheart*

            Yes, but a crappy boss could sabotage your reference even if your work was stellar. I could see the rationale of not bothering to check, if there’s a likelihood that the reference wouldn’t be objectively accurate.

      2. MsClaw*

        Same here. I think this is pretty common. In my company’s case, we can’t even talk about peers. And when I was hiring, I never called anyone’s references because I figured chances were good other employers in the industry had the same policy.

      3. Jules the 3rd*

        Yeah, my fortune 500 employer checks dates of employment, but that’s all. That’s also all they give.

    3. Lucette Kensack*

      My husband has never had his references checked. He is 40, and a director at a Fortune 500 company. It’s baffling to me.

    4. LaDeeDa*

      Oh and to address the smooth-talking– if you know what to ask and how to ask things you can see through the BS right away. behavioral based questions, work samples, and a small “task” should be enough for anyone to see the truth as much as possible.

    5. Sunflower*

      Depends what they mean by references. I’ve only had one company call my list of references. The other ones have only checked dates of employment.

      Also keep in mind that your list of references is – hopefully- going to be slanted in your favor. I had 3 bosses over my time at my last job- my second boss and I didn’t get along so of course I don’t use her as a reference. So I could see why companies don’t bother.

    6. blabla*

      I actually think this is a good practice. References typically do not provide useful information for whether a candidate is qualified for a job and can reinforce cultural biases around hiring candidates who are “just like us.” Plus, when people leave a job, it’s often due to a relationship that is less than stellar with their manager so they won’t provide that person’s contact info anyway. Talking to a couple people who are conditioned to say nothing but positive things about an applicant takes a bunch of time and often people are reluctant to be honest when there were problems with a past employee. Think about terrible employees you have known who had good references. If references aren’t giving you relevant info, helping you avoid bad employees, and take a bunch of time, why do them? I think companies need to focus on skills-based assessments that will tell them whether the candidate is up to snuff.

      1. More Anonymous Than Usual*

        Think about terrible employees you have known who had good references.

        By this logic, think of terrible employees you’ve known who have been great interviewees. Why even interview people, then?

        1. Pescadero*

          Considering the lack of criterion validity in most interview questions, and the bias issues presented by in person interviews… I’m not sure interviewing people actually provides better employees than just randomly picking from a stack of qualified resumes.

          1. More Anonymous Than Usual*

            That very well may be true!

            I’m just pointing out the inconsistency. Lots of folks here seem to be implying an interview is a valid way to judge a candidate because you can ask a candidate the right questions about herself, but a reference check isn’t valid for some reason, because no matter what you ask the reference, the reference will be positive about the applicant. Makes no sense.

    7. More Anonymous Than Usual*

      I think Alison’s said a few times here that hiring employers are well within their rights to call previous (not current) managers, whether you list them as references or not, so whether your list skews in your favor is irrelevant or not.

      And just as you can ask the right questions of an applicant to get to know her, it would seem you could also ask the right questions of a reference to get at the truth (set aside the superlatives and adjectives, ask about specific anecdotes and situations).

    8. More Anonymous Than Usual*

      Even though I obviously don’t agree with you all (or the company) on this approach, I guess it’s good to know it’s not that out there, and, yes, it does seem (based on my limited contact with the current employees there) that they are still able to hire well anyway.

    9. 1234*

      OldJob had the opposite policy, but some managers felt the same way others who have commented do – that people will only give us people who are their friends. That manager called references as a matter of “checking things off the list to satisfy the higher ups.”

      However, if we saw that you previously worked at Company ABC and someone at our company knows someone at Company ABC, we will call up that person and ask if they’re familiar with Candidate. It’s how they decided not to give a guy who looked good on paper an interview – the person at Company ABC said “Yes, we worked with Bob – he whined a lot and wasn’t much of a self-starter.”

      1. More Anonymous Than Usual*

        that people will only give us people who are their friends.

        Reference checkers will want your previous managers not a list of random former co-workers who are friends of yours.

        1. 1234*

          I wasn’t aware that a reference HAD to be a manager? I thought it was anyone who could speak to you/your work in a professional setting?

          Of course, it would be a red flag if they didn’t list any manager whatsoever and only listed colleagues.

          1. More Anonymous Than Usual*

            Doesn’t have to be a manager, but for a reference check to be useful, most or all of the references should be former managers or supervisors. See block of text I quoted below from Alison.

    10. Seeking Second Childhood*

      At the time I was hired, my company didn’t check references — but there was a 3-month probationary period, strictly enforced.

    11. periwinkle*

      I was really puzzled when I interviewed for my current employer and they didn’t request references. They do a very thorough background check (not just criminal records but also work history and education), but no references. It’s a Fortune 50 corporation, too.

      Smooth-talking interviewees could get hired pretty easily here, I would imagine, as we also use a behavioral panel interview with all candidates getting the same slate of questions. I had two panel interviews but it’s common to be hired after just one.

      And yet the overwhelming majority of people I’ve met here are competent, and actually know what they’re doing. Go figure.

      1. More Anonymous Than Usual*

        And yet the overwhelming majority of people I’ve met here are competent, and actually know what they’re doing. Go figure

        It doesn’t make logical sense to me, but if it’s working for your company, how can you really complain?

    12. The Man, Becky Lynch*

      We ask for them just because it’s part of the application but we never check them. My boss is of the mind that everyone only puts down their closest friends/colleagues that are going to just naturally say great things.

      I’ve only had my references checked once and it was only because I pulled the “Here’s my references, please call them!” card because my references were to confirm my exciting backstory is legit AF.

      We’re an “at will” state and have an introductory period. We do a background check and just take the risk. It’s worked out pretty well for us. I was relieved when I started here because I was fleeing a toxic job and had a coworker who could vouch for me but I really just wanted them to not even touch that place with a ten foot pole.

      1. More Anonymous Than Usual*

        My boss is of the mind that everyone only puts down their closest friends/colleagues that are going to just naturally say great things.

        A good reference check isn’t supposed to be on random friends/colleagues the person lists but former supervisors.

        This is what Alison (the author of this website) has to say about it:

        Past managers will make the strongest references, because they’re the people who were charged with evaluating your work. Peers can talk about you as a co-worker, but most reference checkers will want to hear the assessment of the person responsible for evaluating you. But it’s OK to include one peer on a reference list as long as you also include several managers. (And if you don’t include any managers, reference checkers are likely to wonder if you’re hiding something.)
        (Emphasis added)

        and also

        Employers don’t need your permission to contact your references, and they also aren’t limited to just the names you provide. They can call anyone they’d like, including jobs that you didn’t put on your reference list.

        1. blabla*

          Past managers are not always that useful if you haven’t worked for them in several years and the work you did for them was significantly different than the work you do now. For example, if I gave my past two managers (not including my current boss), I’d be giving out contact info for someone who managed me over 6 years ago when I was new to the working work and was working on communications (as opposed to my current field of research). A better reference would be a coworker who had recently left my organization but could speak to my work as a researcher, no?

          1. More Anonymous Than Usual*

            The best would be both. It’s fairly typical for people (not to notify their current supervisors they’re looking for a job) to give a current reference who’s a co-worker and then past references who were their managers/supervisors.

          2. MsClaw*

            You asked why a company would have a policy of not checking references. blabla has given you a reason. I can give you another. Managers may not know much about the employee. In some instances, managers may work closely with their underlings. In other organizations, they may meet with the employee quarterly, while a colleague may have much more useful input to provide. So if you’re just calling all Bob’s past managers, they might not be able to tell you much beyond ‘Bob did well/poorly here’, if they can even remember Bob.

            1. More Anonymous Than Usual*

              Sure, that can be an exception. If the hiring company happens to know the previous manager doesn’t know much about the underling, there’s no need to talk to that particular reference. But that’s entirely different from “We just never check references.” In plenty of cases, a manager knows what’s going on with her direct report.

        2. The Man, Becky Lynch*

          Why are you snarky AF with your tie Alison?

          She’s talking about the places that reference checks. And this thread is about WHY LOTS OF PLACES DON’T DO THEM.

          Thanks for copy/pasting unnecessary stuff though. What a fantastic student.I’m you’ve done a lot of hiring. I sure have.

    13. Fortitude Jones*

      I work for a large-ish software company that didn’t check references, didn’t do a background check on me, or ask for a drug screen. The HR rep said they don’t do that for roles like mine, not sure about generally, but I am a fully remote employee, so maybe they just don’t care whether or not I’m high or an axe murderer because I’m not in one of their offices? *shrugs* Who knows. The people on my team seem to be well-adjusted individuals who are good at their jobs, so it doesn’t seem to have hurt anything yet to not do the check.

      1. Fortitude Jones*

        Hit submit too soon – I was always given a writing assessment for my job that took me about two hours to complete, so they know I can do my job.

    14. Pescadero*

      I had a friend who hired on as a QC engineer at a company that didn’t drug test.

      He told them they could get the yield up by drug testing.

      They told him they knew that – but that the only way they could get employees at the rate they were willing to pay was to forgo drug testing and eat the quality hit.

      1. The Man, Becky Lynch*

        Even for higher paying jobs, depending on where they’re located, you simply wouldn’t get many people to work for you with a drug test requirement. I’ve only ever had to take a drug test for a job in healthcare, that’s due to the risk of people stealing meds more than actually caring about someone being on drugs though.

  16. Kimmy Schmidt*

    In honor of this Wednesday’s sir/ma’am question, what are some of the weirdest office battles you’ve witnessed in the name of “politeness”? Have you ever experienced culture shock about what is or is not considered work-polite? What are the differences between work polite and outside of work polite?

    1. AnonMarketer*

      I used to bike to work. Was a bit of a ride, and the boss insisted we wear business casual. So I’d appear in bike clothes during the beginning of the day, walk to the bathroom, change in there, and appear in my work clothes. I’d seen this done in corporate offices so thought this was okay; however, the business owner was really old fashioned and told me this was WILDLY inappropriate and that I’d have to change outside of the office (like at a McDonald’s or something).

      …but he let me stow my bike in my team pod because apparently that was okay.

      1. That Girl From Quinn's House*

        I was an aquatic supervisor at a gym, where I naturally wore fitness-type clothes: gym shorts and a t-shirt, Bermuda shorts/yoga pants and a polo, etc., because I spent all day on the hot, damp pool deck. But this was in a Cold City with Winter weather six or so months of the year, and I had to walk a half mile to and from the subway, so I’d wear jeans and sneakers or boots in and then change first thing in the locker room, because we had locker rooms and locker rooms are for changing, right?

        Well. One of my bosses didn’t think this was “professional attire” and would glare at me for not wearing professional clothing to work for the 2 minutes it took me to walk from the front door to the locker room and reverse on the way home. When my “professional clothing” was not even remotely compatible with reality (shorts in the snow?), and most people who subway commuted in bad weather would change when they got to work, so they wouldn’t spend all day in salt-stained damp slacks.

        She of course, had the building’s only parking space, next to the front door, and would not make concessions to those of us who had to take the subway. I pointedly ignored her.

        1. Seeking Second Childhood*

          Oh for heaven’s sake! I worked in a not-quite-casual NYC office and in the winter we had people coming in with full parkas every day. Including the company president. One senior manager wore a full zip-up suit from snowmobiling when it was a wet snow.

      2. The Man, Becky Lynch*

        I tend to wear workout clothes under my regular clothes. So I’d be tempted to wear yoga pants/undershirt-like top and then just stand outside and shimmy slacks on over said yoga pants and throw on a blouse over my fitted t-shirt.

        [And this my friends is why I’m not suited for a dress code or a boss who would ever give a flying ef]

          1. The Man, Becky Lynch*

            LOL I live with a fan on at all times. As a kid I would roll up in a blanket and lay in front of the fan because it’s my comfort zone. We also grew up with layers because it was layers or freeze your butts off most days.

            1. Budgie Buddy*

              I also wear 2-3 layers at most times. Leggings under pants in the winter are my secret weapon.

      3. designbot*

        Reverse of that: I used to have a boss who thought that my bicycle was unprofessional and made me look like a child in front of clients, so he started saying that it wasn’t allowed on company property. I wound up parking it at the bookstore down the street, fortunately they never impounded it. He kept asking when I was going to ‘grow up and get a car’ until I finally said, when you pay me a decent salary.
        Randomly, he was not bothered by my biking attire, just the bike itself. And this was in a creative industry, where our competitors had hanging bike racks to show off how hip they were.

    2. Kramerica Industries*

      Not sure if this counts, but my manager insisted that we put something like “Hope you’re having a great day!” or “Open to discussing this further!” on every email we sent. I get that certain cases warrant it, but it grinds my gears to have to write “Hey Joe, could you go to Finance? I work in Accounting and we don’t handle these kinds of requests. Open to discussing further!” Like…I have nothing left to discuss.

      1. SarahKay*

        Our IT support appear to have been told to finish every email with “Have a great day!”.
        Which, when they’re not bothering to read my actual request or respond with a solution, makes me want to rip the exclamation point out of the email and stab someone with it.

      2. Nanc*

        I would be so tempted to insert random cheery closing lines that have nothing to do with the request.
        My bicycle has a bell!
        Tomatoes are fruit and peanuts are legumes!
        I can make a chicken out of a towel!
        Working on my five-year plan–just need to choose a font!

        2. Kimmy Schmidt*

          I love this idea (and will now giggle anytime I receive an email with a cheery exclamation point ending)

        3. NoMercy*

          OMG I am seriously laughing so hard at my desk right now. I want to see a towel chicken so bad…

        4. Close Bracket*

          “Working on my five-year plan–just need to choose a font!”

          Go with Comic Sans, I hear it’s popular

        5. Elitist Semicolon*

          Nanc, this comment brought me great joy and I would delight in having you as a co-worker. The BEST.

      3. The Man, Becky Lynch*

        I found an old old old document with “email etiquette” outlined very specifically and saw old old old emails that were “corrected” and used as “documentation” of “performance issues” by an old executive that thankfully I never knew.

        It detailed exactly what salutations were appropriate and which ones were not. You couldn’t use “Take care” or “Thanks” it had to be “Regards” or “Thank you”. I snickered to myself and then realized what a nightmare that would have been if someone was reading out going emails so tediously that they were looking at how you’re signing off.

    3. Lora*

      I mean not really weird, but culture shock wise I went from working for a German company with a Swiss manager to working for an American company whose senior management was almost all from India. Culture shock, indeed:

      Swiss / German bosses: I can’t believe you people screwed up so badly! This is a disaster! You idiots!
      Me: Hey, we aren’t idiots! We followed YOUR procedure which doesn’t work in the US office! We need to do trial runs and due diligence to make sure that the corporate policies actually WORK globally before they’re made official!
      Swiss / Germans: Oh, okay….good point. From now on, all policies shall be reviewed by the local offices! And all you idiots better get your comments back to us quickly! No excuses!

      Indian bosses: We are thinking about perhaps dividing up responsibilities from the whole department into different sections.
      Me: Uh, okay? But how will we know if we’re duplicating efforts if we are all divided up? There’s some overlap between my group’s functions and–
      Indian bosses: HOW DARE YOU QUESTION OUR GENIUS YOU RUDE WOMAN

      So, you know, that took some getting used to.

      1. EinJungerLudendorff*

        Sounds like you also have a case of incompetent ego shock.
        I hear that if it stops hurting, thats when you knoe you’re about to succumb to the acid.

    4. Anon this time*

      Not using my usual commenter name because many people know this story, but I once worked with a woman who went storming into my boss’s office, super SUPER offended after she got an email from me that read as follows: Can you get back to me on this by Wednesday? If not, let me know what would work for you.

      She had NEVER IN HER LIFE been treated so rudely!

      1. sometimeswhy*

        I once sent the equivalent of “Please include Josie on all pussycat-related emails. Thanks!” and the recipient COMPLAINED TO MY BOSS because I didn’t write, “Dear Archie, Please include Josie on all pussycat-related emails. Thank you! -Sometimeswhy, Title”

        1. Nessun*

          She’d have a conniption with my boss! Half his email responses to me are “K thx”.

    5. JXB*

      I think we’ve all encountered the “polite” person who responds to EVERY SINGLE EMAIL with a “thank you”, even when all substantive discussion is concluded. I find it exhausting.

      We used to have similar discussion on a book exchange site where books were in a database and you could order using credits. There was no personal interaction, but the owner DID retain and ship the books. All notifications about the order, acceptance, shipping were automated. However – since we were all members, you could see the member ID and there was a way to send messages. (Not unlike Amazon marketplace, but – of course – much smaller.)

      There was a staunch group that felt the need to send a direct thank you message each time a book was received. I was in the camp that felt it unnecessary unless something special had occurred or extra information needed to be conveyed. This heated debate that arose from time to time in the forums, always with someone chiming in “Well, **I** was raised to be polite.”

      1. Kimmy Schmidt*

        Oh man, YES. I am all for please and thank you when it makes sense in context, but this always feels like getting the last word in disguised at politeness to me.

      2. CanCan*

        It’s even worse when the said polite person prints out EVERY. SINGLE. EMAIL. in the email chain, including the thank you email. You know, for the file.

      3. gwal*

        I have seen someone who uses Sir and Ma’am (in every interaction, including thank you and you’re welcome emails) in this way. Nobody says anything but I find it a little OTT.

    6. BadWolf*

      The opening the door for each other dance.

      Fresh from college, I was used to “whoever is at the door first can hold it open for others.” I’m a woman. My first profession is working mostly with men. After nearly being trampled when men tried to grab the door for/around me or worse, standing around awkwardly holding a door that no one would go through first, I started getting good at either grabbing the door swiftly, going through and doing the hold for next person to grab it. Or sometimes, pausing before the door for especially enthusiastic men to get to the door without trampling me in the process. It’s not my favorite, but I decided I didn’t want to fight it.

      1. Minocho*

        For me it’s the elevator thing. I’m supposed to be the first on and the first off, because female, I think? Only sometimes, though? I’m from Detroit, y’all, not Texas. These rules don’t make sense to me. Every elevator entry and egress consists of waaaaay too many neurons thinking “Are we doing the thing? Is this the thing? Or are we not doing the thing. Is it time to go? Are they all waiting for me? What does this pause mean?”

        1. Kramerica Industries*

          Takes all my energy not to say “It’s 2019. You can exit the elevator first.” Every. Single. Time.

        2. Clawfoot*

          OMG YES. The elevator. The bane of my existence.

          When it’s time to get on the elevator, LADIES FIRST, so I get on and move to the back. When it’s time to get off the elevator, LADIES FIRST, so I have to try to maneuver around the oblivious pack of men standing in front of the door who are waiting for me to go first, because POLITENESS.

          OMG it makes me so angry I want to start biting people.

        3. Weeping Willow*

          So don’t move to the back of the elevator. First on, move to the side in the front of the elevator, and you’re perfectly situated to step off first. Detroit or Texas, it works with zero weirdness.

      2. hbc*

        I once had a legitimate standoff with a male colleague who would not go through a door held by me. At least a full minute, with other colleagues waiting. He even pulled the “My mother would never allow me to go through before a woman” line, to which I responded, “Good thing she’s not here, and you’re not a child anymore.” I don’t remember who won, which probably means I gave up, since I would still be savoring that petty victory.

        2. EinJungerLudendorff*

          I would be so tempted to give a cheerful “okay!” and shut the door in his face.

          Well, that’s what i’d be imagining doing half an hour after the fact anyway.

    7. Alianora*

      Among admins, adressing someone via email as “Dr. Lastname” vs “Firstname.” I always start with Dr, but if they sign with Firstname and other people are also referring to them as Firstname, that’s how I refer to them too — but then sometimes their own admin will chime in with a “Dr. Lastname.” So I’m not sure whether to switch back to Dr-ing or not.

    8. Brilliant Mistake*

      I had a temp I hired who used to curtsy to me all the time. And she was maybe 15 years older than me, and I didn’t know what to say. Just kept thinking to myself that she was temporary!

    9. designbot*

      My boss says ‘thank you’ in a particular way that just grinds my gears. He basically uses it as a substitute for ‘goodbye.’ Like you’re talking with him, and he decides you’re done (whether you are or not), declares very cheerily “thank you!” turns on his heel, and walks away. Even if you are at his desk. It’s the strangest thing, and very aggravating both because he often does this when the other person is not in fact done with the conversation, and because he thinks this makes him a Super Positive Great Coworker instead of rude and inconsiderate.

      1. SweetTooth*

        Like Miranda Priestly! Maybe he saw The Devil Wears Prada one too many times and took away the wrong lesson?

        1. SweetTooth*

          Duh, just kidding, she said “that’s all.” Still dismissive and not a great way for a boss to end a conversation!

    10. Former Admin turned Project Manager*

      I had an open desk back when I was an admin (no cube walls) and so many people seemed to think it was rude to not acknowledge me when they passed by. Since my desk was around the corner from the restrooms, people passed by *a lot*. I was a pretty productive admin, but I bet I could have been even more productive if I hadn’t been interrupted so many times by everyone who needed to pee over the course of the day.

  17. Steggy Saurus*

    I’m the director of a teapot resource center at Teapot University. My resource center is in the busy downtown of a major metropolitan area. My building houses only the resource center, and is semi-open to the public (by appointment, with occasional drop-ins and deliveries). For the last two decades or so, we have had a contracted, uniformed (but not armed) guard at our entrance to let people in and out and provide general guarding duties.

    Recently, the newish VP decided that she wasn’t getting “value” for her dollar by paying the guard to (and yes, this is a quote) “just sit there” and wanted to get rid of the guard altogether and replace with a key-card system like in the school’s dorm (the dorm also has guards 24/7). The school’s safety committee rallied against that, and we were able to convince the VP that a person was still needed in the resource center.

    However, the VP still wants “value” for the salary being paid, and decided the school should hire a “receptionist” who would also be a “guard” to sit at the front door. Basically, my boss and another person on campus (neither of whom work in the resource center) need admin support and the VP decided this was how they were going to get their admin support. Personally, I don’t think a person can be a guard AND an admin person at the same time – guards sit/stand and watch constantly so they can remain aware of the situation in the area they’re guarding and admin work will distract from that. On top of that, since the position won’t be contracted, we won’t have guard coverage of any kind for lunches, vacations, and sick days.

    My position is that the VP is creating a potentially dangerous situation by not having an actual guard, when all other public buildings at the university have a guard. I asked my boss for his honest opinion on the matter, and he says he’s willing to try it for a few months. I’m torn as to what to do. I hate to go against my boss, and in any normal situation where I’d disagree I’d just accept my boss’s word, but to me this is about safety of staff and students and security of the resource center’s collections. In theory, I could go above my boss and the VP (who are nominally of equal rank) and go to the University’s president or a member of the board’s risk management team.

    What say you?

    1. league.*

      Have there been incidents? It seems odd that a guard would be needed in a busy downtown area. Do most off-campus businesses around you (stores, salons, etc.) have guards? Maybe you are just used to the guard’s presence?

      1. Steggy Saurus*

        There was an incident less than two months ago, and I’d say we have about one a year or so (no guns – drunk/high people who try to come in and bother students/staff). I polled other downtown college resource centers around the country and all have guards and keycard. The other resource centers in town all have guards. And yes, many other businesses also have guards (most of the larger retail stores and of course the banks).

    2. INeedANap*

      I work at a large university with several satellite offices across the downtown area, off central campus. I have never heard of having guards in these satellite offices. We don’t have guards on campus, but we do have a police force on campus, so I assume guards aren’t needed.

      I would personally not really think there is any need for a dedicated guard in a building that doesn’t have any specific safety concerns. If this was a resource center for a part of the community that might reasonably fear some kind of crime or violence (for example, a domestic violence center that might expect a violent partner to appear) – in that case I 1000000% see the need for a guard.

      However, unless there is a specific reason a guard might be needed, I can’t imagine what the potentially dangerous situation would be. Our satellite offices seem to have no problem with a basic keycard entry to access the workspaces restricted to the public.

      1. Steggy Saurus*

        Okay, let me further clarify (I was trying to obfuscate for security’s sake): I run a library. We are not a university with a police force where we’d have cops who could come in on tours every once in a while. In addition, we had a very bad incident last month where a drunk and belligerent man made it into the building next door to ours and then almost made it into ours as well.

        As I mentioned above, every other library in my city (university or otherwise) has guards at the entrance. This isn’t as unheard of as people think.

        1. INeedANap*

          Yes, the library thing changes it. All of our public libraries in my city have a guard or cop on duty. I think there’s a big difference between a resource center – which is mainly an office setting – and a library – which is open to the public.

          1. Steggy Saurus*

            I wish I could edit my reply – it didn’t occur to me there might be another meaning for resource center!

    3. RandomU...*

      At the end of the day, what is the difference between a receptionist/admin and a uniformed unarmed security guard?

      Both will monitor the comings and goings of people
      Both will greet visitors
      Is there something special that your security guard is doing that a receptionist/admin can’t do?

      This seems that you have the perception of safety and advanced security with the guard, when in reality it’s a person who is present wearing a uniform.

      Maybe I’m missing something?

      1. kittymommy*

        A lot of people do respond differently to a uniform though, even if it’s just an unarmed private security uniform. Our libraries all have a uniformed security and so many times they have had to go up to someone to either escort them out, calm them down, or give some sort of admonishment and nine times out of ten the person has already been spoken to by staff and ignored. It’s crazy how having someone in a uniform say the exact same thing can engender such a different response.

        Of course this doesn’t always happen, some just continue on and then law enforcement has to be called, but yeah, a uniform can make a difference.

      2. WellRed*

        If they actually did need a guard all of a sudden and the receptionist was in teh middle of oh, data entry or whatever they will try to stick them with, what happens then? Also, I agree with KittyMommy about how people respond to a uniformed guard vs a receptionist in business attire.

        1. RandomU...*

          I’d assume that the person in the position would be able to prioritize making an emergency phone call for actual police over a data entry project.

      3. ket*

        You’d have to train the admin to deal with drunk, high, or disorderly people. Is that standard in an admin job?

        1. Nessun*

          A lot of reception jobs are first-line contact for the public where the public is not necessarily a client/customer or someone you’d want anywhere near your workplace. Everywhere I’ve worked the receptionist has had some training in how to politely and safely request that people leave, and an emergency call button to summon security if there is an issue with a person who won’t listen.

    4. Decima Dewey*

      Is there a Safety Committee you can turn to?

      Libraries in my library system have to have guards at least on their way when we open. Most of the time the guards mostly observe and make sure things are okay, occasionally nipping potential problems in the bud. The important thing is that the guards are available if something does happen. Something like two patrons getting into a fight. A patron ODing in a library bathroom and needing Narcan. A diabetic staffer having a low blood sugar episode and being clearly non compis mentis. FWIW, we just had to call for help when a patron passed out, tried to say he was okay, got his location and the date wrong (he said he was at the shelter and that it was the 11th). Incidents and emergencies happen quickly!

      1. Steggy Saurus*

        Thanks, Decima. We went to our safety committee and they wrote a very strongly worded letter to the VP/my boss stating their concerns. Unfortunately, the VP’s stance went from “we don’t need a body in this spot at all” to “we’ll put a body there, but it’ll be an admin person,” so she clearly doesn’t get it.

        That’s the thing about a guard – most days you can look at just the numbers and say, “this is pointless.” Then one day comes along when the crazy person walks in and it makes all the difference. An admin person won’t necessarily have any extra training, won’t have a rapport with the guards in the other buildings, and also, what are we supposed to during the four weeks of vacation the new admin person gets?

        The point above about the uniform is a good one too; I tried bringing that up.

        My question at this point is really – do I just suck up the downgrade in safety for our students and staff, or is it an appropriate time to go over people’s heads?

        1. WellRed*

          Most days are pretty quiet for firemen, I’ll bet, but when you need one, no receptionist will suffice.

          1. cmcinnyc*

            YES.

            I am an admin. I am not security. We have security–both building security for all the tenants and security that works just for my company. They have different training and different responsibilities. If you need a security guard, you need a security guard. It’s not a job where a person is going to look busy all day, and a good chunk of their job is practically Reception, but when we need to prevent unstable ex-employees, abusive husbands, and general vigilantes from getting access to our floors? They do that. I would NOT do that without training. That’s the “value” you’re getting.

            1. valentine*

              when the crazy person walks in
              I can’t tell if you mean mentally ill, because using that term makes the phrase sound wrong.

              do I just suck up the downgrade in safety for our students and staff
              No; never.

              or is it an appropriate time to go over people’s heads?
              Yes, this is worth fighting as strenuously as possible. Just out of blatant self-interest, your VP should want to avoid being the person who hired an admin (for people who aren’t even in the building!) instead of a guard and then someone shot the place up. In security, boring is good. You want to have a record like 1,000+ days without an incident.

            1. Steggy Saurus*

              In my state, an unarmed security guard must be licensed with 40 hours of training in a number of areas one would not expect an admin assistant to be trained in.

              I stand by the point that one cannot be booking travel or scheduling complicated things while simultaneously paying proper attention to all of one’s surroundings. If so, why would any place need unarmed security? Why can’t I just sit in my office and keep an eye on who’s coming and going? The guard’s single-minded focus on security allows everyone else to focus on their work.

              1. RandomU...*

                You were comparing an unarmed security guard to firefighters. That is what I was referring to as not being the same.

                1. ket*

                  To be pedantic, Steggy was not comparing firefighters & security guards; WellRed was.

                  Second, the comparison was not in the job duties alone, but also in the frequency and urgency of those duties. Both firefighters and licensed security guards can spend long stretches of time “not doing anything”, but when their services are needed, neither is interchangeable with an administrative professional or receptionist.

                2. WellRed*

                  Splitting hairs. My point is that they don’t see the need for the most appropriate person in the position, whatever that looks like, until they need that particular person with that expertise. I’d rather have an unarmed guard break up a fight than me, the receptionist in my pretty dress.
                  At any rate, it’s very common for libraries to have guards and librarians.

    5. Anonymouse*

      If there is an incident just call the cops? You could even install a panic button for the receptionist.

        2. RandomU...*

          Again.. what is an unarmed security guard going to do any differently than any other employee in the building?

          They are going to call the same the same police as you or I would. Ok you got me, they can stare menacingly at the person causing the disturbance in their uniform, but that’s about it.

          1. Do you have a horse in this race?*

            I think you may be missing the point. A dedicated guard is only going to be watching for potential issues not occasionally focusing on other tasks. Someone with split duties who is also doing data entry may not be prepared to address an issue before it even begins. Yes, they can prioritize calling the police over data entry, but by the time they notice there is an issue, it may be too late.

            1. RandomU...*

              Not missing the point (or arguing @ket), just don’t really agree. I’ll bow out if alternate perspectives aren’t helping the discuss.

              1. Steggy Saurus*

                Obviously I disagree, but the more interesting point is that the VP thinks unarmed security guards are required in the other buildings (a main building and a dorm/classroom space). If there’s no difference in the eyes of the VP, why is the VP paying for the guards in those buildings?

          2. ket*

            I don’t understand why you are so intent on arguing that unarmed security guards have the same skills and attitudes as receptionists. A security guard, by definition, signs up for the job of security guard. A receptionist signs up for a different job. This difference in attitude alone matters! Someone who loves answering emails & following up on travel arrangements really may not want to deal with conflict at all! In California, by contrast, a licensed security guard has to go through training on crowd control, blood-borne pathogens, workplace violence, handling difficult people, etc. You can look up the topics of training here: https://www.bsis.ca.gov/industries/g_train.shtml Of course different states are different, but as someone more likely to be receptionist than a security guard, I really wouldn’t appreciate being paid to answer the phone and emails and then also have, “Oh, keep the drunks out too! for no extra pay! thanks!” sprung on me.

    6. I need a vacation*

      I’d wonder which job is considered more important and gets priority in duties. If an incident happens, but the receptionist/guard didn’t handle it because they were handling reception duties or admin support… or if they can’t do admin support because the guard duties occur… what happens?

      I’d also be curious about the requirements for this combined role, since the physicality required for a guard position is different from those for an admin position. “Must be able to file and also know self-defense/be able to subdue people” is an interesting skill combination.

      1. Steggy Saurus*

        All excellent points. :) The current steps I’ve taken are to unemotionally compile a list of all these points and send them to the vp/boss/hiring manager and say, “here are the points that will need to be addressed with the position.” That way I pretty clearly expressed my concerns without actually being defiant. But I am really feeling the need to escalate this.

        Another issue: this person will have three bosses. Me, my boss, and the other person who needs admin support. Can you imagine how miserable that would be?

    7. Dr. Anonymous*

      Maybe you could ask your boss if they’ve gotten an opinion from the risk management team.

      1. Steggy Saurus*

        Since my boss is essentially saying “let’s try this out” and our only real risk management team is a Board committee, I’d have to go over his head to do this. That’s essentially what I’m trying to figure out: am I in a position where doing that is appropriate?

        1. Reba*

          Ah. I think this is worth continuing to fight for. Collaboratively, of course! Go back to your boss, say this is really bothering you, and ask for a meeting or phone call with whoever is most able to speak to the risk management aspect of this, AND your unit’s insurance! “I understand the administrative needs here but I am really concerned that those might override our students and staff safety–that is a crucial priority as I see it.”

          Could you reach out to colleagues/peers to get a sense of what similar buildings and institutions practices are? You’ve explained it in this thread, but I wonder if presenting it in a more official way would make an impression ?

          1. Steggy Saurus*

            Thanks. We have one insurance plan for the whole school, I believe (we’re quite small). I’m on vacation this week, but I do think I may try once more to approach my boss, maybe after talking to the person on staff who pays our insurance policy.

    8. Seeking Second Childhood*

      I say I knew someone involved in the Connecticut Lottery workplace shooting.
      Bring back the guard.

      1. Mickey Q*

        My nephew was on campus at Virginia Tech during the shooting. My daughter started a few months later and my son soon followed. Get a guard.

    9. KR*

      In my company’s corporate offices they have guard/security person at the front desk who handles issues regarding visitors and temporary elevator passes (permanent employees get a RFID card that unlocks the floors they need to get to & the parking garage). I wouldn’t say they are a receptionist but they do handle the front desk of the building.

      1. noahwynn*

        We have the same in my office. The guard handles the check-in and out of visitors and sits at the desk during the day. If you have a visitor they will send you an IM to let you know there’s someone waiting for you and even direct the vistor towards the coffee/water while wait.

        There’s actually two of them on duty during the day, one always at the desk and another roaming around checking exterior doors, wandering through the parking lot, things like that. At night there is just the one roaming around.

    10. CB*

      In college, I was the receptionist for our enrollment office, which regularly had internal and external visitors for our freshman orientation, VP, and enrollment marketing teams. Our building also housed suites for admissions, registrar, financial aid, cashier, etc.

      While there was not police/security presence in the building, every front desk had a “panic button” under the desk that would alert the campus police dispatch of an issue. The dispatcher would call the front desk, and if nobody answered, they would dispatch a uniformed police officer. I used this once when a parent became verbally aggressive and defensive due to an issue out of our control.

      This might be an option for your office if your boss/VP are unwilling to compromise about the guard. In our scenario, the only extra cost was a small charge for the additional ‘phone’ line for the button.

    11. Pay no attention to the man behind the curtain*

      I work at a university in an off the main campus downtown building just like you describe. We have a contracted, uniformed, unarmed guard (actually 2-3 that rotate out during the day). Almost all of our guards are retired police officers with that level of training. The guards sit at a desk with a small bank of camera monitors that cover the parking lot, inside stairwells and a few of the reception areas on different floors. They also have a constant radio contact with the main campus — like a police scanner — to keep apprised of anything happening on campus that might be of concern to people in our building. Their job is to watch the monitors as well as check in visitors who don’t have a university badge, and on a schedule walk a sweep of the area. A few times a day, the armed campus security drops by too. Like the OP has described, the usual incidents our guard has to deal with are drunks and homeless people either trying to get in, or hanging out in the parking lot, and they go out and encourage them to move along or call the city police if that doesn’t work. When they sweep the area, they are on the lookout to report other safety concerns as well — make sure outside exit doors have closed all the way, locks are functional and not tampered with, no one has propped a door open that shouldn’t be, no one is smoking where they shouldn’t, stairwell lighting is working properly, look out for leaks, and escort anyone to their vehicle if they request it, etc. All this to say that if a guard is doing their job, they couldn’t possibly handle real reception duties, and vice versa. If what your VP is annoyed with is the sitting there doing nothing, then add duties to the guard that add value.

    12. 30 Years in the Biz*

      If this hasn’t been mentioned: What about liability to the library? It seems that someone performing receptionist duties clearly can’t/doesn’t want to perform the security tasks needed to keep people safe and unharmed. If something bad happened and there was a lawsuit, I’m thinking that a weak point in the library’s defense would be that they had an unqualified (and probably unmotivated) person in a public security position. Based on previous incidents at your and other’s libraries, wouldn’t that be a negligent act? Besides risk of injury/death, this could cost the library way more that the cost of a security guard. I’m not a lawyer.

    13. Lilysparrow*

      I say that if this goes forward, you need to fully disclose in the job description that this “admin/reception” position also includes security guard duties such as:

      1) physically protecting the collections from willful damage;
      2) dealing with drunk/high and disorderly people harassing the other patrons and staff, including de-escalating potentially violent situations and ejecting people from the building;
      3) monitoring the stacks and restrooms for illegal activity and intervening as necessary;
      4) rendering assistance to vulnerable patrons, such as administering Narcan for overdoses or doing CPR until emergency services arrive.

      It will definitely change the pool of people who are willing to apply for this “admin” position and get paid a “receptionist’s” wage.

    14. Not So NewReader*

      I know. Let’s have pilots clean the cabins while they are in the air. I mean most of the time pilots just sit there. Unless the plane starts falling out of the sky they really have nothing to do and we need more value.
      (That’s snark in case anyone is unsure.)

      Give your boss one more chance, especially if they are an okay boss and this is out of character.
      I think this is a case where you need to arm your boss with words to argue the point.
      You could show the boss articles about libraries using guards.
      You could show your boss descriptions of all. the. different. things a guard watches for. Be sure to talk about those little clues or gestures that happen in a blink of an eye.
      And you could talk about what if something happens. And then your boss and the VP have to explain TO THE PUBLIC why the guard was removed. Remind your boss that he is now on record as agreeing with the VP.
      As your boss to ask the organizations attorney what legal liability might arise from such a move. Could your boss be held personally responsible? Let’s say something awful happened (heaven forbid) could your boss be sued for everything he personally owns?
      Last, you could point out that you would feel unsafe in your workplace.

      If none of this works, then yes, escalate.

      If I hit an issue that left unchecked could cost me my life literally, then I have no problem making it my hill to die on figuratively.

      I have argued life and death points and I know it is exhausting. Especially when ordinarily intelligent people refuse to grasp the danger involved. But you know what, my other choice is to leave the job because I am not willing to put my life on the line at work when it is preventable or at least can be mitigated to some degree.

      Look for several angles, along the lines of what I wrote above. Go in and present those several angles to your boss.

      1. Jasnah*

        Agree wholeheartedly. It’s baffling to me to complain that all a guard does is “sit there”… that’s what you’re paying them to do! That’s like complaining that all IT does is “go on the computer.” That’s literally their job description and guards NEED to be aware and ready so that when something happens they can respond. Their job is to stand there and watch things. If you feel like you’re not getting your money’s worth because there are no incidents, that means the guard is doing their job well.

    15. ..Kat..*

      I think you should (politely) push this now. Once this change is made, it will be hard to undo. I think it is easier to push back now.

      Could you ask the contract company that provides the guards for more information about the value their company provides your university? They might have reasons/information that you have not already provided to the higher ups.

      If students knew about this decrease in security, would there be protests? Would the local news organizations be interested to know about the decrease in security during a time of increased violence/shootings at schools?

  18. CuriousKitty*

    Has anyone here ever felt like they’re just not cut out for the corporate world? I’ve done administrative work for over 20 years and I’m not sure if it’s where I’m working now or if I REALLY need to make a huge change and get out of the office environment all together.

    I can’t take the lingo, the politics… the ‘change management’ strategies that are never really used and the lack of common sense and respect. The spreadsheets to determine how humans work and how baffled people are that employees are unhappy… and now we need a consultant and a program and an acronym for that! How executives don’t get how out of touch and favored they are – and in my case, we are ‘supposed’ to be non-profit! We sure don’t act like it anymore.

    Am I the only one? Just curious… I’m worried I’ll leave the job I’m at now and just end up in another place that’s the same or worse. Maybe I need to think broader about making a change?

    Thanks,

    1. My gov't name is Jen*

      Me. I left for-profit in 1997 and then graduated college right into non-profit and military. I wouldn’t know what to do in a corporate environment. I’d feel very awkward.

    2. Steggy Saurus*

      Oh yes, very much yes, I know I am not meant for the corporate world. And there’s a very disturbing trend in non-profits now towards adopting what seem like the worse examples from the corporate world. In fact, my employer too is headed down the same path, to the point that I have, in writing, warned HR about it. I think many employees knowingly accept lower salaries to work in the non-profit to escape the corporate world and when a non-profit starts heading in a corporate direction, staff start to think something along the lines of, “Well, if I’m going to be in a corporate environment anyway, I might as well get paid like it” and leave.

    3. LaDeeDa*

      My husband hates the corporate world and is no good at it, and hasn’t worked in it since graduating college 22 years ago. He is a civilian working for the military but works directly with the clients.

      I can’t handle non-profit, because the few consulting jobs I have had with non-profit were not good experiences and left a really bad impression on me.

      I think more than defining who- is defining what. What kind of culture would you like to work in? What kind of impact do you want your work to have? What kind of environment do you like to work in- do you like tasks, do you like creative, do you like autonomy, do you like working on a team? Defining what YOU like/want will you pick the who!

    4. Catleesi*

      I definitely felt this at my corporate job. I cared about doing my particular job well, and that my team felt supported, but I 100% did not care if the business did well. I wasn’t invested in whether profits were up, or how many new clients we got. The mission was not something I felt strongly about, and successes never ended up benefiting me anyway. I transitioned into higher education – and while that comes with its own issues, I definitely feel like what I do matters to me and it makes me happier.

    5. I See Real People*

      You’re not alone Curious Kitty. I’ve been thinking about buying or starting a florist. I’m not particularly the creative type, but this toxic office environment that I’ve been in for three years is just getting worse. I feel like I’m doing my job better and better, but the people I work for just get worse and worse with regards to professionalism, honesty, respect, etc. I’d like to be surrounded by flowers or something as pleasant with a good profit margin.

    6. The Man, Becky Lynch*

      All the things you’ve listed are why I don’t do well in “big business” and have opted to be in small business. Since I don’t do “rigid” structure or strict “policies” kind of things. I’ve always had the ability to glide in and out between office and shop work to keep me sane. All my coworkers are relatively happy and management teams are always grateful for their solid staff, making sure to treat them well and have their backs, etc.

      I’ve never used spreadsheets to determine people’s work output, I can see it first hand by seeing orders are processed and being produced and shipped. We don’t use lingo and jargon. I talk to the CEO like I talk to the CSR and I’m “HR” and nobody is afraid of me, they know I’ll make things better or find some kind of compromise. Nobody has to worry about telling someone to “stop” doing something that’s obnoxious or dangerous, without having to go tag a “supervisor” to do it, etc.

    7. Kenzi Wood*

      Me! I only spent 5ish years in a 9-5 before I started freelancing instead. And let me tell you what—I’m so much happier. Sometimes you just need to blaze your own trail. :)

      With your admin experience you could be a VA, work from home, and set your own hours. Oh, and any time a client doesn’t work out, you can fire them .;)

      1. RemingtonTypeType*

        I struggle with freelance VA. The only place I’ve had nibbles is upwork, and it seems like the people there want to pay pennies for skills. So frustrating! And it’s hard to compete with people who are offering to work for pennies. Is there anywhere good to look??

    8. AudreyParker*

      Definitely! My current solution (job searching) is to look at smaller companies and certain industries that are less likely to function that way. I have tried to be open minded, but keep finding I really struggle in the larger corporations at this point, no matter how much better the pay is.

      1. The Man, Becky Lynch*

        Small companies can have great pay! We also have insurance and other benefits, don’t let the “startups” scare you away or make you think that they’re going to only be able to spring for a beer fridge or something like that as your “benefits” ;)

        You’re more likely to find somewhere that really appreciates you because you’re able to see the owner/operator and build a relationship with them.

        From having salary data from Alison’s recent gathering and also our local radio station does it too…it’s a fallacy that corporations pay more. Unless you’re super high up that is. I mean like Mega Corp stole our marketing person and yes, that meant a huge pay bump but also a huge increase in hours and red tape and other things that money will not save you from the nervous breakdown I’ve heard that other place can create =X

        1. AudreyParker*

          Good to know – my last gig was at a small company that paid terribly (I didn’t really have options at the time), but the upside was that they were more open to hiring someone with my scattered background, as well as give me exposure/experience in areas of the business that would have been closed to me in a more structured and corporate environment. Downside is I’ve had a very difficult time finding anywhere else that appreciates that experience after being downsized, and most of the ones I’ve seen that pay well do so for higher level roles than what I think I’m eligible for. But I still think it’s the most promising option for me!

          1. The Man, Becky Lynch*

            You want to look for a healthy, “older” small business is the key. The ones that tend to fail you most are the ones who are poorly structured and cash poor for various reasons [usually bad management].

            I would need to know more about your background and experience but you may be selling yourself short in terms of positions that you think are higher level roles. It’s much easier to be the “director” or “manager” of an entire department or even close to executive level because there’s much less in the scheme of things that you need to know. You’re still going to be able to have the access to an attorney, CPA or access to a government office kind of things to assist you in most things. A lot of it is just the power of knowledge and the ability to find the answer/lead the ship and keep up to date with how things need to be done/show you have the decision making skills, etc. That’s STRESSFUL though to a lot of people and if that’s the case, that’s totally understandable. But please don’t think that you’re simply not capable of it in a skills based term, you know?

            I crawled my way from an accounting assistant for this rinky dink place, to business/ops management and can double as a controller depending on what they want from me at any given time. So if this raggamuffin can do it, you can do it too.

            But it’s all about that “clicking” factor and what makes you happy and what you want to do! But then again, I cannot be hired by a mega corp for what I do because they’re sticklers for those pesky degrees. Despite the fact that I’ve had to fire people with more education than I have who can’t do my job, go figure.

            1. AudreyParker*

              Good to hear from someone that’s worked well for – I have to work hard not to think my experience necessarily reflects the only experience. I was working for a newer company that definitely had issues, so not terribly surprising things did not go optimally, even though it was very good experience (despite what recruiters seem to think). I do enjoy having to figure things out and problem solve, so it was nice having a lot of latitude there. I also get stuck in thinking that if someone does not give me the title, it reflects on my lack of ability vs the fact that there was no space in the org to make any changes, so that definitely makes it harder for me to suspend disbelief as I look for something new.

      2. MoopySwarpet*

        Small companies are a double edged sword if you want to branch out from your specific job description, too. As in, you will likely have the opportunity to dabble in other parts of the business (if only as a backup), but you may be “forced” to pick up slack in areas that wouldn’t typically be your own.

        I happen to love it because if I don’t like what I’m doing right now, I’m likely to be able to change it within a fairly short time frame.

        The potential lack of long term company viability is a concern, but in my experience, entrepreneurs are tenacious. Plus, they’re entrepreneurs at heart so if one company doesn’t work out, they’re likely to start another one in (possibly) a completely different direction. They’re still going to need support staff.

    9. Where’s My Coffee?*

      I’m so so tired of consultants and acronyms and “new” research on motivating employees, much of which will miss the mark.

      1. Windchime*

        Yeah. You want to motivate me? Be more flexible on working from home. Don’t tell me “but the collaboration!!!?!!” and then expect me to drive 30 miles in heavy traffic so I can sit at my office desk and call other people who also drove 30 miles in traffic to sit at *their* office desk which is a couple miles away from my office desk.

        Seriously? I love my job and the benefits and the people, but the antiquated ideas about remote work and dress code drive me nuts.

    10. Fortitude Jones*

      I hated all of this stuff too, so I found a remote job – so far, it’s been fantastic! I don’t have to deal with stupid office politics nearly as much as I would have to in an actual office and I can flex my work hours however I want – my manager told me she really doesn’t care what my hours are as long as the work gets done.

      1. Receptionist/Rocket Scientist*

        How did you find a remote job like this? I’m really trying to get out of my corporate job and into something remote-friendly for health reasons, but it’s been such a struggle. I’ve gotten interviews for full-time remote jobs, but they are ridiculously competitive and someone with more experience always wins out.

    11. Not So NewReader*

      Any place is going to have some lingo, politics, lousy changes and ivory tower execs.

      For most of my life I avoided office work and now I have reached a point where I have to sit down sometime during the day. Perhaps it was stereotyping on my part but I could not stand all the encoded talking that went on in offices. Like Alison says, stop hinting, it doesn’t work. I am not patient with stuff like that, just say what you mean. I will never figure out your hints, I promise.

      It could be your sector, it could be your NPO, it could be your department. No way to really tell for sure. Sometimes all we need to know is that it’s time to move on. Start thinking about this by thinking about what you are naturally good at. If you like some of these things, then bonus. But keep to what you are good at first and foremost. This will put you in the direction of being successful in a new environment.

      I do agree with others who said they prefer smaller places. I have never worked for a big company, just local or regional companies with a small local branch. I prefer smaller ponds. Some places are less snippy than others. I tend to think the work at hand matters. I worked in a nursery for a long time. Plants seem to bring out the best in people. Then I worked in a regular retail store with shoplifters and all kinds of other problems that I never had to deal with when I worked in a nursery. I got sick of retail for all the reasons people have said for years here.

      Probably there are companies in your area that people seem to agree are preferred companies to work for. Ask around. You can see if any of these companies match something on your list of natural abilities.

    12. MissDisplaced*

      100% I feel like that all of the time. The corporate world in America is such a bunch of bullshit. Why can’t you just do your work?
      I actually like my work, it’s creative and interesting to me, but I loathe the corporate experience and politics.

  19. Rosie The Rager*

    How to deal with new co-worker’s family drama

    On Wednesday, my new co-worker was late for work. She called the office 30 minutes after her expected arrival and informed our supervisor that her ex-husband, with whom she lives and is reconciling, was in jail, so she felt overwhelmed and didn’t want to come into work.

    The boss persuaded her to come into work as a “distraction” from her drama, then proceeded to discuss the issues at length at full volume with “all needed love and kindness.” I was forced to listen to this because I could not access earbuds, headphones or any other noise.

    Given how tight my deadlines are for the 10 projects I’m currently overseeing, I have neither the time nor the patience to listen to someone’s family issues.

    Does the AAM community have any suggestions on being nice while asserting boundaries and staying on task? I don’t want to fall behind on my work or alienate a vulnerable person.

    Thanks!

    1. lawschoolmorelikeblawschool*

      I’m so sorry for your stressful situation – unfortunately I need to get back to work, can you continue your discussion in (common area outside of work space if one exists)? Some people will probably think it rude, but as people here always say, she’s being rude and you’re politely asking for the rudeness to end without calling it rude.

      1. valentine*

        I need to get back to work, can you continue your discussion in (common area outside of work space if one exists)
        This is good, though the train-wreck boss may invite you to join in the love. *shudder* Is there a distant space you can work? Given the coworker’s poor decisions (cohabiting with an ex, reconciling, telling the boss they don’t feel like working)/stressors and the boss’ lack of professionalism or common sense (telling them to come in and then preventing either of them from working, doesn’t know the meaning of distraction), I’d be worried about other aspects of the job.

    2. Veryanon*

      Well, it wasn’t great that the boss facilitated such a conversation, so maybe starting with your boss is the way to go? It sounds like there were some boundary issues there.

    3. LaDeeDa*

      As the manager, I would have said: “Yes, please stay home and deal with this difficult situation.” Because you know that kinda drama is going to be all she can think and talk about, and I am not interested. UGG. lawschoolmorelikeblawschool’s script is perfect!

    4. The Man, Becky Lynch*

      Yikes, your boss is kind of terrible for talking someone in distress into coming in. Not everyone is “distracted” by work [I say this as a person who worked all throughout my dad’s health crisis because I do need a distraction]! That was selfish behavior and she was ‘hoping’ that she’d get work out of a person who wasn’t in the right headspace for it. Now you’re in the middle of it.

      When someone tells me they need to stay home, I say “Of course, take care of yourself first.” and then if it were to become an issue with attendance, then we’d discuss it further on that front.

      I agree that you just need to respond with the “I’m so sorry you’re going through this. Unfortunately I’m on a tight deadline right now and this is distracting from my projects, please use the conference room, etc.”

  20. Anony-miss*

    I’ve been job searching pretty seriously for the first time in several years, and I’m having so many mixed feelings. I’ve had to drop out of 3 searches because they weren’t going to be able to meet my salary needs and were all lateral moves, which in some ways is empowering – I’m in a position where I can hold out for what I want! But it’s also discouraging to not hear back from the step-up positions I’ve applied for. How do folks manage the ups and downs of this process?

    1. Sarah*

      I don’t have any answers, but I’m empathetic. I’m in the same boat – I feel underqualified for upwards moves and overqualified (or they don’t meet my salary needs) for lateral moves. I’m also in a rural area with limited options unless I can find the same kind of unicorn that I have now (remote with flexible schedule) or want to commute for 2+ hours, which I don’t.

    2. LaDeeDa*

      Take a look at your resume and compare it the jobs that are a step up. Compare the verbs– you make need to step up your language- not lie, but use stronger words. For example: “works closely with” changes to “partners with”, “served as project manager for ” changes to “managed *scale of* project”, “maintained x resources” changes to “contributed content for the maintenance of X”
      When looking for a step up- promotion or external, people want to see a progression of abilities and competencies, and that can be done by wording things differently (greater impact) for your current role compared to a previous role.

      I hope this makes sense!

    3. AudreyParker*

      Not managing it very well at this point, to be honest. I’m having a very hard time gauging what “step-up” positions would be realistic, and I think part of that stems from not hearing back from early applications. I’m actually now looking at “step-down” positions, which is a tough pill to swallow. (There doesn’t seem to be anything actually lateral due to the unique mix of responsibilities/environment of my previous position, so it all feels like kind of a crap shoot.) But I agree with LaDeeDa about matching the words you see used in the job posts. Also, make sure you spell things out in the cover letter that you might be counting on people to infer from your resume – they may not connect the dots as easily as you think.

      1. LaDeeDa*

        AudreyParker, if you feel comfortable sharing more details I’d be happy to offer any advice or ideas I can. I do talent and leadership development as well as leadership coaching.

        1. AudreyParker*

          I would love any advice or ideas you might have (not getting much at the moment), although I find I’m not good at being concise with this ;) Basically, my work history is non-linear because I was more focused on just having ANY job that didn’t require using a dry cleaner and allowed me time outside of work to do what I wanted to be doing. This landed me in several positions that were neither great fits that made me want to create a path nor were they considered growth opportunities, so that when I inevitably got laid off I would just have to start from square one again.

          My last position, obtained via a former coworker, was technically Asst. Project Manager (I’d done lots of project coordination and admin work previously) but covered a lot more ground because it was a small company and I am a very pro-active problem solver who loves digging in, documenting, analyzing and fixing things, so covered a lot of territory. Every role I have, I contribute outside my official job description just because I want to. Technically, I know I had an impact, but it was another position with no promotion path or money or official training scheme. So after yet another legitimate lay off, I had a brief moment where I thought I could apply that experience to continue to escape the admin realm, although I have zero interest in a PMP (and probably not the right background, anyway). I’m finding there does not seem to be any ground between Admin Asst and Experienced PM with certifications, though, so it seems like I just have to target jobs similar to what I did nearly 10 years ago rather than even any kind of lateral move.

          A career coach encouraged me to aim higher because I do tend to take initiative and technically have some experience, but I think the reality is that if I can’t officially support that with being promoted or official certificates, I just look like a glorified admin who never gets promoted. I did not enjoy being an admin because I like my autonomy and being project focused vs playing whack-a-mole all day and worrying about everyone’s lunch preferences, and would like to actually have my salary go UP for a change, but need to be realistic. And at this point am discouraged enough to think I just need to accept that’s the best I can hope for. (Ideally I’d have come up with some kind of individual contributor skill set to pick up by now so that I could get away from that whole world of just moving things around on the calendar entirely, but that’s a whole other topic! Right now I just need to do something with existing skills, or minimal learning requirement, since the clock is ticking.)

          1. LaDeeDa*

            Sorry for the delay, I hope you will check back and see this! You mentioned you have been a project coordinator in the past, that is the step between PMP and admin, but often it isn’t different than an admin, lots of companies use coordinator to really mean admin. A true project coordinator does a lot more than admin work.
            I don’t have a great feel for what you want to do– but you said you enjoy research, digging in, and analysis– have you searched Project Quality Management? PQM is the process for ensuring that all project activities necessary to design, plan and implement a project are effective and efficient with respect to the purpose of the objective and its performance. Sometimes it is called quality assurance, quality control. This could even lead to agile training or being certified in Six Sigma.
            The other thing I would suggest, based on your comment about autonomy, is prospect research. This is mostly used in non-profits and universities. This is literally researching potential donors and creating a prospect informational sheet for the executives and donor relations people. It is actually really fun if you like research, I did it while getting my second master’s.
            If you want to share in next week’s open thread some things you want to do, I’ll try to help!

            1. AudreyParker*

              Glad I thought to check back, and thank you for your reply! Main problem is I haven’t come across with anything I WANT to do. Well, I have, but it’s a little late in life for the archaeologist or linguist track… I’d thought I might want to get into something like UX design, but my understanding is that is oversaturated on the jr level now, anyway. My most recent work was closer to PM than glorified admin, and I’ve also done basic QA work (lots of hats) which is fun, but I think it’s all just too ambiguous at this point. I appreciate the suggestions (will have to look into prospect research!) & will try to remember to jump back in this Friday :)

  21. CatCat*

    Job search depression. I know I’ve experienced it in the past during bouts of unemployment. I saw this article in the NY Times this week about it and strategies to combat it and thought I would share it in case anyone might find it helpful. The strategies are kind of common sense, but I know when I was in that place of hopeless feeling, I would have had a sense of guilt implementing some of them. I know I would have felt less guilt and more validation pursuing them with a sort of third-party authoritative blessing like this article:

    https://www.nytimes.com/2019/05/27/smarter-living/how-to-deal-with-job-search-depression.html

    1. AudreyParker*

      Just read that yesterday! It was good validation, especially the part about not feeling like it’s ok to take time out. I pretty much don’t let myself do anything that could be called “fun” anymore, and don’t want to socialize because I’m so mortified about my inability to find work and don’t want to have any more exchanges about not knowing WTF I’m looking for or qualified to do anymore. In my head, it’s like there’s CCTV that recruiters/hiring managers will review and say “well, she doesn’t want to work badly enough, look at her going to a movie! Cross her off the list.” The article reminded me that unemployment is bad enough, punishing myself for being unemployed is not going to help things — just need to figure out how to reboot!

  22. Bunny Girl*

    So this is more of a vent. I’ve been in the same company for two years and in my current department for one year. I’ve never liked my job, but I’m a student and it pays decent and things are slow enough that I can get most of my school work done during the workday, which is really nice. I’ve done a little job hopping in the past because I’ve moved a lot, so I am doing to stay until I am closer to graduation.
    That being said, I just started my internship and it’s made it even harder. I’m tired so that’s not helping, but at my internship I get to do something I love and the people are absolutely amazing and it just makes going back to work during the week even harder. My biggest complaint about my job is the people. I don’t like any of my coworkers besides my direct supervisor. Everyone else I just base-level tolerant. There’s a couple that actually make my skin crawl to be around. I find our “social activities” unbearable and I don’t go to any of them besides the ones during work hours because I have to be paid to be around my coworkers. It’s just really depressing because it’s almost like I’m being teased.

    1. Dragoning*

      Ah, but it’s great that your internship in what you’re presumably studying, is interesting and you really love it. That’s a great sign for the future and this job is just kind of holding you over until you get there.

      And since you’re a student, if you do find a job you like more, it wouldn’t be that weird to find a new job, I don’t think. A lot of jobs don’t work well with a student’s schedule or moving around so things have to change up fairly frequently.

      1. Bunny Girl*

        I am a bit of an older student (late 20’s) and I am a full time employee and a part time student. Trust me, I have thought about looking. :) Thank you though. I do think it’s good that the general field I’m going into has a lot of great people in it.

        1. valentine*

          Reassess whether the skin-crawling is enough that you need to leave. If not, what if you think of these people as a tax on your pay/schoolwork time? Presumably, you would rather be there with schoolwork time than elsewhere with no time for schoolwork.

          It wouldn’t hurt to see what’s out there. You will find something you want and are excited to jump ship for or you will find you need to stay for a bit. Either way, you’ll be better off.

    2. The Man, Becky Lynch*

      The good thing is that you’re learning at your internship that your job now, is not something you’re locked into long-term. It’s just a “for now” setup. Try to frame it in your mind as just a way to pay the bills and that sooner than later, you wont’ ever have to see those people again! I know it’s hard but it’s really good that at least you’ve got a glimpse outside and it’s not like you’re stuck, wondering if ‘This is how it is everywhere’, you know?

      1. Bunny Girl*

        Every once in a while I call my bestie in law enforcement and ask her to describe what prison is like and I stay at my job and manage to keep calm. Lol.

  23. Owlette*

    Hi, I need some advice. I’m going through a divorce right now, and I’m having a hard time holding it together. I’m afraid my emotions are affecting my work. I just started a new job a few months ago. My boss has nothing but fantastic things to say about my work. He and HR have been very accommodating and helpful. My boss flat-out said, “Hey, if we only get 80% out of you for the next few months, I’m still very happy to have you on board. Take as much time off as you need.” We have an unlimited PTO policy and flexible schedules and the option to work remote sometimes.

    I’m just worried about how much time I can take before it is a problem? I don’t want to take advantage of such a nice workplace, and I can’t afford to lose this job because I’m going to have to support myself on my own now. But I also have severe anxiety and depression and I know the divorce is taking a huge toll on my mental health. Because of money reasons, I have to live with my husband until July, when our house should sell and I will have my own apartment. I’ve been seeing my therapist weekly, but there’s nothing much more he can do without giving me stronger medicines, and I’d like to avoid that.

    Essentially, how do I hold it all together? Has anyone been through this as well? How do I continue to be a good employee?

    1. I'm A Little Teapot*

      I’ve had some success with a mental shift – viewing work, and being at work, as a refuge from whatever’s going on in my life. Doesn’t work if there’s stuff I feel like I need to work on at home, but if it’s more I’m stressed but there’s nothing I can do, then throwing myself into work can help.

      1. Owlette*

        This has been my tactic so far, but because it’s a new job, sometimes I get frustrated with having to learn new things and I start feeling worthless, leading me into a spiral about feeling bad about the divorce again. It sucks because home was my refuge from a stressful (but awesome) new job, and now I don’t have that.

        I have been throwing myself more and more into my writing and my social life, so that helps.

    2. Rainy*

      Is there any way you can get out of your house before July? (And does your lawyer think that’s advisable, which might be another question entirely.) Do you have a pal with a guest room or a sofa? Does someone you know need a house-sitter? It’s summer vacation time, if your lawyer doesn’t think it’s a bad idea to leave, can you housesit for friends for a couple of months until you can get a place?

      If you can’t, have you and your ex moved to separate parts of the house?

      I think if none of that is possible, it’s probably time to hit up your therapist for something to tide you over. It’s only two months, and two months of Ativan milkshakes or whatever isn’t going to turn you into a zombie, but you’ve got to get the stress off or it sounds like you are going to break a shoelace one day and rocket into orbit.

      A friend of mine got dumped by her long term boyfriend the week before her doctoral defense and two weeks before their lease ended and she was not a well unit for a bit there, but what she did was pack her shit up and go house-sit for a couple of weeks til she could find an apartment. She did it in the middle of the day too so he came home to no ex, no ex’s cat, and a series of post-its on all her stuff that said “THIS IS MINE AND I WILL BE BACK FOR IT”. She came back with an army of friends and packed up without any notice to him while he was at work and pulled a Keyser Soze. It was immensely satisfying. I never liked him. She passed her defense, got a tenure-track job in our field (UNHEARD OF), and went on a date with her now-husband 2 weeks after she Soze-ed the ex. It was glorious. She is living her best life, and her ex is still a giant loser now living in Losertown alone with his loserness.

        1. Rainy*

          Haha thanks. I wish I could visit more serious punishment upon him for being such a jerk, but I guess I have let the consequences of his actions be their own best revenge.

      2. Owlette*

        Thank you for telling me your friend’s story! I feel a little better knowing I’m not alone.

        My husband and I moved across the country for his job a few years ago. I love where I live now (Colorado), but I don’t any family here. Most of our friends are his coworkers which are taking his “side.” (Not intentionally, just that they’re closer to him than they are to me.) I do have a few friends that live about an hour and a half away in Denver, and I’ve been crashing with them on the weekends for a nice respite. I just can’t crash with them every single day because I can’t logistically commute that long to my job. My husband and I are sleeping in different rooms, yes, but there’s only one bathroom so that’s been awkward. My parents, who live in Florida, bless them, have been calling me frequently and a little money here and there, which I am eternally grateful for.

        My therapist recommended that I take a vacation in June, and another in early July, just to break up the time a little bit more and give me something to look forward to. I might still ask him about the medicine, though. I’m just on three different meds right now because of this and taking a fourth makes me nervous. I might have to.

        Thank you so very much.

        1. Rainy*

          Oh, I’m in Colorado too! I live in the Town of Nuts and Flakes :)

          That’s rough, I’m so sorry. And it happens so often. I have known so many people, often women, who move somewhere for a partner’s job and then get dumped and it’s just brutal to be far from your support network and going through a divorce.

          You can do this, it’s just going to suck for a little bit. And then you can leave his loser ass to rot in Losertown with my friend’s ex. ;)

    3. cmcinnyc*

      I went through something very similar, and the suggestion to reframe work as your refuge really does help. It can be really, really hard to concentrate when the anxiety hits, though. For that, I suggest setting a timer on your phone: power through X amount of time, then take Y amount of time to worry. If you can take a walk during the day that helps a lot. Force yourself to work/concentrate during the designated times. You can get a lot done this way and it definitely counts as holding it together.

      1. Owlette*

        Scheduling my worry! That actually might help! There is a nice park a couple blocks away that I’m sure I could visit halfway through the day to break it up. Thank you!

    4. The Man, Becky Lynch*

      A lot of stronger meds can be taken at night so that they don’t make you completely zombied during your office hours and it helps you “remove yourself” from the home life situation right now.

      Take your boss at their word and take off the time you need. The real issue going to be making sure you don’t feel like by taking time off, it makes work pile up and start suffocating you that way. You don’t want to start dreading work because of the amount of work you have to catch up on. You want to try to look at work as your refuge and your sanctuary. Somewhere that you have things that are going on, even if it’s just where you can peacefully get a cup of coffee without sharing that space with your soon to be ex-husband.

      1. Owlette*

        Thank you for the suggestion, I will ask my doctor about medicine I can take at night!

        My boss is great in so many ways–I am very lucky to have found this workplace! We don’t really have deadlines here, so there are not many emergencies and not much work to pile up. My boss’s mindset is that things get done whenever they get done. I think I can ask him to help me reprioritize my tasks.

    5. Moocowcat*

      I’m sorry that you’re going through this.
      Random thoughts:
      1) Can you sleep somewhere else? (House sitting for a friend. Visit family. Different bedroom).
      2) Take time off work. During my divorce, my brain had the critical thinking skills of a potato. It was good for me to take time off to go out to stare in befuddlement at the library walls.
      3) Find activities that give you a reason to get out of the house. Hiking, volunteering, anything that isn’t in physical proximity to your ex.

      1. Owlette*

        I can crash at my friends’ houses on the weekends, but they live much too far away for me to commute to work every single day, unfortunately. I have no family out here.

        My therapist suggested taking a couple vacations, one in June and one in July, to help break up my time and give me something to look forward to. After reading yours and others responses, I am feeling more confident in asking my boss for that time off.

        As for activities, I have been throwing myself into my writing (so much angsty poetry…) and my social life, which is helping majorly. I think the biggest thing is that my coworkers are so quiet that I am stuck with my own head throughout the day and I’m internally freaking out. I can handle the home life and my free time just fine right now. But work….

        1. valentine*

          Since your location’s about his job, your former friends are his coworkers, and you sound like you’re the one moving out, how would you feel about asking him to move out until you do or to split it so you get the place on weekdays and he gets it weekends? I really think distance and a real physical separation will help you a great deal.

          Other things to maybe look into: Does your job have corporate housing? Anyone you can housesit for? Do his coworkers have nearby spaces they might let either of you use?

    6. spiralingsnails*

      You have a supportive boss, which is huge! But I totally understand the anxiety over not being sure exactly how much is too much to ask for.

      Maybe you could try creating a consistent weekly schedule of which core hours/days you’ll be in the office, which days you’ll be working completely from home, and a consistent morning or afternoon each week that you’ll take off for your counseling/lawyer appointments. (Example: M, W, & F I will plan to put in at least 7 hours of work arriving in the office no later than 9:30 and staying until at least 4. Tuesdays I will be working remotely and available by messaging/email at least from 9:00-3:00. I will attempt to schedule all appointments for Thursdays, so I will remote in as much as I can but might not be able to reply to messages until Friday morning.) Then you can show it to your boss and ask whether they think it will cover all the bases. Having consistent core hours helps your coworkers feel confident that they can get ahold of you when necessary. And having a consistent schedule could help you too because instead of having to make *more* decisions you can just follow the pattern automatically.

    7. Batgirl*

      Ooof. I was able to hold it together with a supportive boss but I 100 pc know I couldn’t have, if I’d been living with my ex. I had to kick him out for my survival. I’m hoping your situation is less drastic, but if there’s anything seriously and daily egregious about your living situation then do consider that the cheapest way to pay sometimes is with money. Failing that; anti depressants may well be enough to get you through a few weeks with strategic avoidance.
      I was all ready for it be soooo expensive and debt inducing to live on my own and it was actually so! much! cheaper! to make my own unilateral decisions. We had lived quite simply, so I was stunned at how much money was apparently frittered on bad communication. Hoping it’s the same for you. At some point the murkiness, the realisation that no one saves up for a divorce, the ruination of a designed future …. morphs into a feeling of freedom and possibility. Good luck and lots of love.

      1. Batgirl*

        There is also the natural anti depressant of exercise but I personally could not summon the energy…

      2. Owlette*

        Hi, thank you so much for telling me your experience. :) My situation isn’t drastic, thankfully. I don’t want to go into too much detail, but we were married much too young and we decided to divorce before we started to hate each other and the situation actually got drastic, if that makes sense. But we/I genuinely cannot afford to have the mortgage payment and a separate rent payment right now. We’re in a high COL area. I will be totally okay once I’m moved out and the house is sold, but for the next few months, I’m on a tight budget. Having to ask parents for help.

        Sometimes I feel that sense of freedom and possibility, and then I get scared and depressed all over again. But that feeling of freedom is there, and I think it’s going to keep getting stronger. I greatly appreciate your kind words.

        1. Batgirl*

          In that case you can probably stay afloat in limbo with busy weekends and lots of self care. Cement in the basics; sleeping and eating. Add in some daydreams, short term and mid term. An unknown future is genuinely scary. At some point you realise you never did know the future and never will. But there are unchanging parts of you that will always be in all possible futures. You’re already sensing that freedom! Excellent news.

    8. Not So NewReader*

      If you are worried about how much time is too much time, first consider that he is very happy with 80% of your output. Remember that. Be results oriented, finish things or make a noticeable start on something each and every time you work. Use it as an excuse not to think about life stuff for a moment. Yeah, this is super hard. That is why it is good to deliberately write down your goals or your starting points each night before you leave work. This will help with continuity and finding your train of thought each morning. If you can, spend 10 minutes at night laying out what you will start with in the morning. This is really helpful for the scattered thinking that comes with upset and grief.

      You can do a similar thing at home spend time before bed, lining up your clothes, lunch, etc. It might help you sleep a tiny bit just to know these things are organized.

      Next go ahead and ask your boss “how much is too much?” Have an idea of what would feel supportive to you. Perhaps having every Wednesday or Friday afternoon off would be good. Perhaps you would like to come in an hour later on certain days. Or maybe you need days off here and there to take care of things that come up. Confusingly what works this week may not work next week. So ask if you can flex a little. I know for me something works for a bit then I am ready to change it. If this is you too, ask how much change they are comfortable with. He will probably say he needs x by Friday or y done in two weeks, etc. Try to estimate what you need to do to make those things happen for him.

      Additional thought :Can you stay at your friends and work remotely on a Friday or a Monday?

      As an aside try to talk nicely to you. If I said to you, “OP YOU HAVE TO KEEP THIS JOB!” you would not like me very much. “Harsh, NSNR! Harsh!” Likewise it is harsh to talk to you this way, too. Tell yourself affirmations instead. “I can do this!” or “I am so happy to have this job that I actually like!” How we talk to ourselves matters, we can feed our own anxiety and worry if we are not careful about what we say to ourselves. Reassure yourself. WHEN you forget (I forget often), correct yourself and follow up with a reassurance.
      “I can’t do this!!!”
      “Whoops, I mean if I take this one day at a time I will get this!”

    9. None the Wiser*

      Do you have a gym membership? Working out can’t hurt your situation, with the added bonus of having an alternative bathroom facility. Can you afford to spend an occasional night at a hotel? Might give you something to look forward to and a good solid night of sleep. Maybe some of your work colleagues have vacation scheduled and you can offer to dog and/or house sit for free.

    2. saucy comment sorry*

      So this is allowed, but a Killing Eve comment was removed? It wasn’t really a spoiler at all.

      1. Ask a Manager* Post author

        No, this was also removed, but only because I happened to see it, and not until just now. I don’t read all 1700+ comments on the open threads, or even all the comments on other threads.

        From the commenting rules:

        I do not read and approve every single comment. The volume is far too high. I also sleep and work and do things that are not near a computer. So if you see a comment that seems problematic, please don’t do this: “I can’t believe this comment is allowed! Why has Alison approved this?!” Instead, assume I haven’t seen it and feel free to flag it and I’ll take a look (if you include a link in your comment, it’ll go to moderation so I’ll see it).

  25. T3k*

    Is there a way to write a cover letter when you 1) worked for the company before as a contractor and 2) haven’t really gotten more experience in the job field since (besides working on a degree and working in an unrelated field)? I have a great cover letter template that’s worked well in the past but obviously won’t work as well for this job posting as it’d be regurgitating tasks I did there.

    1. zora*

      Not specific to your situation, but have you tried the trick of pretending you are writing an email to a friend telling them why you are perfect for this job? Or even in your case, writing it to a former coworker from that company, but as a friend? I would definitely address it as if both you and the person reading it know you worked there before, cover letters should be personal and conversational, so don’t act like you have to be ‘objective’ or something!

  26. Amber Rose*

    Oh god, the smoke. My eyes, throat and nose are burning. It reeks. My lungs are screaming. I wish I could go home. D:

    Today in News from Literal Hell, we aren’t using the Dimethyl Sulfate but also we can’t get rid of it because it’s too dangerous and nobody wants it. The company we bought it from was like, “here’s your money, you can keep it lol.” -_-

    As for an actual question, what is the best reaction to have when your boss asks you for advice on… how to boss? I’ve never been a manager, I just read blogs, but she was asking what to do about my coworker who did a thing for a third time that she was specifically told not to and is screwing over a bunch of projects. And I was like, “umm, well, you’re the boss so tell her to cut it the eff out?” 0_o

    Not specifically in those words, but like. I don’t know! I tried to use some AAM wording but I feel like giving second hand advice makes it crappier. I wish I was as good as Alison at advice! Teach me your ways. xD

      1. Amber Rose*

        Maybe, but she’s kind of stubborn. I’m not sure how much good that would do.

        Maybe I should just leave my copy of Alison’s book on her desk one day? =P

        1. Blue*

          But you’re specifically answering a question she’s asked, which seems like totally fair game. I would probably find an AAM link or two and email them to her in a “Since you asked, I thought this might be worth a look!” kind of way. If she doesn’t want to read it or take it seriously, oh well – it sounds like that wouldn’t really be a change from the current situation!

        2. Not So NewReader*

          Eh, does she want advice or does she want to be stubborn. She has to pick one.

          Leave a copy of Alison’s book for her. She can chose to pick it up … or not.

    2. Cloudy with sunny breaks*

      I’ve been lucky to miss the smoke the last two summers as I’ve been working in northern BC, but I’ve worked in areas with forest fires before and can sympathize! As for your boss, I think your advice was perfect. A few of my friends/co workers had to tell me something like that before and they were right – le sigh.

    3. Middle School Teacher*

      Smoke is bad here too. Last night the sky was sepia. My classroom vents suck air in from outside so my room was gross and kids were complaining of sore eyes and lungs. It was bad.

    4. Susan K*

      I had a manager who would complain to me about my coworkers (his subordinates) who played on their cell phones all day instead of doing the work they were supposed to do. One time, he said, “I wish I could put a box by the door and make people hand in their phones when they come in.” I didn’t say anything, but I was thinking, “WTF? You are the one person who actually has the authority to tell these employees that they are not allowed to play on their cell phones and order them to do their work! What’s stopping you?”

    5. Miss May*

      On getting rid of the dimethyl sulfate: does your community have a hazardous waste collection day? I know we’ve gotten rid of material that nobody would take that way.

      1. Amber Rose*

        That kind of thing is mostly for household hazardous materials. This stuff is so, so crazy dangerous. That little 30mL bottle could kill a room full of people. Our regular hazmat people will take it, but they will charge us $500.

        1. Juniper*

          That sounds like a good deal. $500 vs. endangering people? Granted, this is one of the things I do, hazardous waste, but still. It’s safer to bite the bullet and pay to dispose of it than to wait until the container breaks or the product denatures and becomes worse.

          1. Amber Rose*

            Yeah, I mean, we’ll pay it. We pay them to take all our other stuff away. My boss just wants us to wait until we have more stuff to give them. So it’s sitting in the storage room.

            Shouldn’t be an issue to leave it, we never even took it out of the hazmat packaging. That 30mL bottle is in a giant, industrial coffee can sized container.

    6. Seeking Second Childhood*

      Oh dear… you can’t get rid of it!? Do you have a local hazmat place you can ask for help?

      1. Amber Rose*

        Yep, my boss is just really unimpressed with the $500 price tag. =P
        I was hoping we could donate it to the university or something but they don’t want it, it’s too dangerous.

    7. Auntie Social*

      Ask the screw-up why they keep screwing up–are you careless, are you mad you didn’t get a raise or put on X’s team, do you think you know better, you know, WTF? Then explain the time and money that is spent by having to redo the projects. Then ask the screw-up what should be done—if they say “I won’t do it again”, that’s not going to fly. So have them get to ‘PIP, demote or fired’, and see what your little voice tells you to do. After three times it’s time for action.

    8. The Man, Becky Lynch*

      She’s been screwing up multiple times and has been told that she needs to fix it…yet the question is “what to do?”

      The answer is fire her, WTF is so hard about that that you have to ask another report what they think about it *face palm*

      If it’s a contract job, then I’m sure there are previsions on how to handle performance issues if there’s progressive discipline or whatever. Your manager is a numbskull! You don’t need a book or anyone else to tell you how to deal with someone who keeps messing up. You bring it to their attention, you show them where they’re messing up, you train them properly and give them the materials to do the job correctly. Then if it continues, you remove them if possible to another area they’re better at or you fire them.

      1. Amber Rose*

        Actually it seems my manager took my actual advice, which was along the lines of “if she won’t listen to you, go ask YOUR boss, that’s literally his job, he’s the intermediary between us all and also the nicest person alive so it’s not like he’ll think badly of you.”

        1. The Man, Becky Lynch*

          Ah so she’s just an intermediate manager and has someone to answer to! That also makes it easier for everyone…I cannot believe she needed a report tell her to go to him though.

  27. Red Reader the Adulting Fairy*

    This week, I took and passed the CompTIA Project+ (entry level project management) certification exam, as a requirement in my degree program. I’d never heard of that cert before – is this a cert that’s actually worth noting on my resume, or not so much?

    1. T. Boone Pickens*

      I would depend on the types of positions you’re applying for. I’ve seen CompTIA certs quite a bit when I’ve recruited for IT roles in the past. CompTIA certs are pretty well knows so I’d definitely keep it on your resume especially if you’re looking for entry level PM roles.

      1. Red Reader the Adulting Fairy*

        rock on, thank you :) My career and degree program are both for health information management, and while my previous experience is more on the finance side of HIM than the IT side, I’m looking in the future to be able to bridge the gap a bit better.

    3. Anax*

      Coming from the IT side, since that’s where I live – and the professional gossip I’ve heard has been – CompTIA certs can be useful, but are likely to be valued more by HR, recruiters, and government positions. Some IT folks are a little wary of them because they’re all book learning, so it’s hard to tell how a candidate will actually perform in the field.

      IT tends to focus more on experience than formal education and certifications… once you get your foot in the door. Getting your foot in the door is tricky.

      The upshot of that is that this may help a lot in your first job or two, but it may lose some value once you have a few years of experience.

      So tl;dr – Absolutely, put it on your resume!

      If you’re looking for more IT-side health information management credentials, I’ve also seen a lot of postings which required Epic certification lately. Your mileage may vary, of course, depending on region and the specific jobs you’re going for, but that might be worth looking at.

      2. Red Reader the Adulting Fairy*

        I’ve worked in Epic (as a user, not an administrator or on the IT side) before, but it’s been a minute. My org is a Cerner house though, we’re retiring Epic from our last location this summer. (They were using it before they integrated with us.) Might still be worth looking into though, if that’s something I can do on my own as a side project. Thanks!!

        1. Anax*

          Happy to help! I hope it’s a good move to get away from Epic – I actually used to live in the town they were headquartered in, and the employees’ stories were pretty gnarly.

    4. Daughter of Ada and Grace*

      I don’t know anything about the Project+ cert, I did get the CompTIA A+ and Network+ certifications when I was looking to move into IT roles. I’m pretty sure they’re what got me bumped to the top of my pay band in my second IT job. (The first job was at a very small company that didn’t have salary bands.) They may be “book-learning”, but I recall it being pretty solid book learning.

      These days I don’t include them on my resume, but that’s more because they’re not terribly relevant to my current work.

      1. Anax*

        That’s super valid, and I’m sure there’s variance! I’m phrasing this as gossip for a reason, for sure.

        I’ve heard the info is definitely useful, especially as one starts out.

        The main complaint I’ve heard is that candidates can look great on paper, but they lack critical thinking, initiative, or creativity; they’re just good at rote memorization. Those qualities are better expressed through work experience, when it’s available – so like a college degree, this kind of educational background tends to be de-emphasized over time.

        In contrast, for instance, the CISSP (a security cert) seems to be quite well-regarded … partially because it comes with the requirement that you have worked in the field for several years, and because it focuses more on practical experience.

        When I was job-hunting this year, only a very few jobs – usually entry-level tech support jobs – mentioned the CompTIA certs as specific requirements. EVERY security position wanted a CISSP or equivalent certification.

  28. In the Weeds*

    I’m about a month into a new position and I’m trying to gauge if our Board of Directors has issues or if this is the norm…

    I’m an Executive Assistant to the President of a nonprofit. Our Board consists of about 20 members. The members are assigned to 5 different committees which meet monthly. The entire Board meets monthly as well, so in total we have 6 monthly Board meetings. The President and myself are expected to prep, create and distribute an agenda, attend all the meetings, and take minutes for each meeting.

    To me, 6 monthly meetings seems like a lot. What’s worse is they all happen over the course of two weeks so we have a lot of work to do for these meetings 2 weeks out of each month.

    Our Board seems to be “in the weeds” about little details a lot. For example, we are hosting a Gala this fall, and one of the Board members edited our Gala sponsorship letter and sent it back to us to review. She sent her letter to us 2 weeks after we showed our Board members the letter. We didn’t expect to get any revisions and had already sent our letter out, and she and several of the other Board members were upset about this and called our President to complain.

    Something else weird that happened – a handful of our Board members scheduled a financial meeting with our bank without letting our President know. She found out after the fact and was very upset about being purposefully excluded. She knew one of them was trying to set up a meeting, and asked him to include her on the talks. He obviously didn’t let her know anything.

    Is this type of stuff normal with a nonprofit Board? I’ve only worked with one other Board before, and they seemed much more laid back and hands off. I get the feeling this Board doesn’t trust the President, which is terrible because she is truly a lovely and hard-working person. I know I’ve only been here a month, but I really don’t feel like she deserves this kind of treatment. I’m worried they will push her out which would be a shame for the organization (and the staff, myself included!).

    1. Officious Intermeddler*

      Is it normal? YES. Is it good? NO.

      Sometimes, as nonprofits grow, boards have to learn how to transition from working boards, where these volunteers shoulder a lot of the labor (including copy-editing and stuffing envelopes and the like), to boards where their primary job is to provide high-level oversight, hire qualified people, and ask for and give money. Many boards, including some I have beenon, struggle to make the jump. The way to transition is with effective leadership from hired professional staff supported by sympathetic, competent leadership on the board. Recruit people who have experience on better-run boards and you’ll find that this change will happen naturally, but it might take a few years.

      Your board sounds like it too many committee meetings to me, especially if there’s membership overlap on them. For a nonprofit, I’d usually like to see separate audit and finance committees, separate governance and nominating committees, and maybe one related to your programming if absolutely necessary. Audit and finance should meet regularly, but monthly sounds like too much to me, especially if you have an accountant and if you’re audited yearly. Governance and nominating could go quarterly or less. This all depends on what’s in your org’s bylaws, though–maybe these meetings are required for now.

      Board committees work best, in my opinion and in my experience, when they’re related to running the organization smoothly and professionally, not really about programming. You can get some really dysfunctional outcomes when a committee no one is paying and who won’t ultimately be held professionally responsible makes programming decisions.

      Anyway, the miscommunication, the stepping upon of toes, the lack of trust–that’s normal, but not great. Also, it’s possible you don’t know the whole story about your board’s relationship with your boss. I remember being shocked to discover how badly an executive director had performed for YEARS on a board I was on–and how it was basically a secret that new board members had to discover as they rolled into service. We eventually had to fire her, which was so, so awful. It was horrible for our membership (this was a membership organization), and other staff, who believed this was out of left field, when really it was a legacy of doing nothing when an employee was…not good for many reasons.

      1. My gov't name is Jen*

        You did a great job w/ your response. (20-yr nonprofit veteran here)

        Thank you for differentiating ‘working’ board vs. ‘governing’ board. When I made this statement at our recent staff retreat (attending was our new ED and DD both of whom are new to their roles while I’ve been an ED before) they said, “Well we want a working Board. Even if they’re making policy, they’re working.”

        Yes! “Board committees work best, in my opinion and in my experience, when they’re related to running the organization smoothly and professionally, not really about programming.” Our new ED wants a programming committee but the programs are created/vetted by our parent organization (we’re an affiliate) and thus there’s nothing to discuss so why have the committee, right?

        1. Officious Intermeddler*

          Programming committees can be the worst! I was on the board at a summer camp once where a programming committee would work literally at odds with the hired staff, down to things like…what to serve in the kitchen! That’s no way to run a business. Respect for your 20 years in NFPs!

      2. In the Weeds*

        Thank you so much for your detailed response, this is incredibly helpful. It is true I haven’t been on long enough to know the whole story between the board and my boss. However, from what I have picked up, the previous CEO was a mess and really hid a lot from the board. They fired him and replaced him with my boss, who really seems to be trying her best but she is running into some struggles with them.

        1. Officious Intermeddler*

          That…might explain things. When you’re a volunteer on a board and you have a bad experience with the professional staff, that can really change your perspective on oversight going forward. It can lead to micromanagement in a way that isn’t very good for the new person. Been there. Good luck–support your boss the best way you can and remember the board is ultimately there to make sure you’re following your mission, honoring the donors’ intentions in their donations, and being good stewards of the organization’s resources.

    2. LCH*

      i don’t know if it is normal, but in the future you could give them a deadline you will be sending out mailings and announcements so if they want to make edits, they will be on notice to do it before then. and you’ll be covered.

      1. In the Weeds*

        After this happened we immediately went to our Event Manager and asked her to create a deadline for the entire event (including when we are sending correspondence). Wish we had thought of it before but now we know! Thank you.

    3. LadyByTheLake*

      As for meeting with the bank without the President, that is an appropriate oversight function for the Board. On the other hand, if they were meeting with the Bank about operational issues without the President, that is not their function — goes to the problem that this board seems to be getting into the operational weeds. Boards should be guiding the direction of the organization and playing an oversight role. The officers should be doing the day to day operations. And a marketing/fundraising staffer should be doing gala stuff.

      1. In the Weeds*

        Yes, they were meeting about operational issues which is why this was such a big slight to my boss. :(

    4. Ali G*

      No, not normal. The only time I’ve seen Board’s with that much interest in the day-to-day activities are when the staff is very small (so like if it were just the President and maybe one other paid staff and the rest were volunteers). In those types of situations the Board do act more like management, because more work needs to be done.
      But this does seem fishy to me.

      1. In the Weeds*

        We have about 40 people on staff, so I’m going to say we really aren’t that small. My last organization was much smaller with only 12 staff, and the board was not nearly as involved! They had their own issues too, but most had to do with totally different things (like gossiping on Facebook).

    5. Sue*

      I agree with the other comments and it’s possible the board is over-involved in things because of the problems with the prior President. If they were required to spend a lot of time with that situation, it may be difficult for some of them to let go.
      I’m saying this from my own experience on a Board where staff troubles got us very involved and micromanagement ensued. My advice to your President is to cultivate good relationships with the most reasonable people on your board. Good luck!

  29. ClosedWindow*

    Had a question for people who are involved in hiring.

    Once in a while at interviews, I’ll be given a paper application to take home and fill out my job history, education, skills, references, short answer questions, etc. Is there a reason companies do this? It doesn’t make sense to me to have to handwrite and scan this information when all of it (except sometimes the references) was supplied when I first applied through their website or wherever they posted the job.

    My references never get called and I always get a quick rejection after I submit the requested handwritten applications, so I wonder if I should bother filling them out at all.

    1. Anonymous Educator*

      Yeah, I don’t understand this at all, but I’ve seen it very recently at one place. I mean, an online ATS, which is already annoying to have to manually enter stuff into, at least goes into a database they can search. A hand-filled-out form that just goes into a drawer? What’s the point of that?

    2. Llama Wrangler*

      I don’t understand the point of them, but my org has them. My guess is that the getting a rejection after submitted the applications is a coincidence, unless there are major red flags. (Like, I know my boss rejected someone in an admin position who needed to be highly detail-oriented who messed up sections of the paper application.)

      1. ClosedWindow*

        Oh, the red flag thing is a good point. I honestly rush through filling them out because I’m peeved that I’m having to give them information I already gave them, but I do read over them after I finish to see if I missed anything or made mistakes. Maybe I’m missing mistakes I made.

    3. The Man, Becky Lynch*

      They send you home with it? That’s strange, we want it done prior to the end of an interview. We send one to people when they are invited for an interview and are told that if they cannot fill it out prior to the interview, there will be time to do so at our office. We do this because it has some questions that aren’t covered in a resume. We also want “work history” not just a resume tailored to the job itself, so it gives space for that information.

      It also has the information we need to run a background check and in our case an authorization to run a background check.

      Then I realized that you’re filling out an application of sorts through their website?! And this is just a written version?! That’s bizarre and seems like an archaic practice for a company with an online application process.

      1. ClosedWindow*

        I’ve been e-mailed them before and asked to return them prior to the interview, and if they give them to me at the actual interview they say I can fill it out at the end or bring it home and scan it. (I always opt to bring it home. Driving to the interview site, making sure to be a bit early, then waiting for late interviewers, then doing the interview… By the end of it I just want to go home, not sit around and rewrite my resume. And it’s easier to fill them out at a desk rather than leaning on a folder on my thigh in a lobby.)

  30. longtime reader, almost-first-time poster*

    Greetings all! I am currently job hunting for a position in a technical field (first full-time job out of college). I already closely tailor my cover letter to each position, but a couple weeks ago, I finally took the plunge and also rewrote my base cover letter as advised on AAM, emphasizing specific successes and responsibilities that weren’t on my resume, my values, and specific positive feedback I’d gotten from colleagues in the past.

    My question is: I feel that in my technical field especially, this isn’t how most people write their cover letters, and while I certainly have been convinced by this site that taking my letter in this direction is the right choice, I want to make sure I’ve used the AAM advice to good effect and written a letter that will stand out in a GOOD way.

    I really want to get a second opinion (or two) on what I’ve written, or some help with my new cover letter…but I don’t know where to go for this, since most people in my life are more familiar with the traditional regurgitate-your-resume cover letter guidelines. I was wondering if anyone could recommend any consultants, sites or articles in addition to AAM, categories of people in my life who I might not have thought about, etc?

    (On a semi-related note, how important is the “address anything wonky about your candidacy in your cover letter” guideline for addressing a job hunt that has gone on a long time? I currently am not mentioning anything about it (there isn’t one simple clean explanation – family health issues and then personal health issues, among other things) in my cover letter, and just have the part-time work I’ve done during this time on my resume. Am I shooting myself in the foot?)

    Thanks!

    1. irene adler*

      Might seek out a local chapter of the professional organization in your field.
      They will have folks who can review your cover letter and resume – and – they will know the field you work in. So they will be qualified to offer suggestions.

      1. longtime reader, almost-first-time poster*

        Thank you! I meant to do that a few months ago and then /completely/ forgot about it…this is a great point about them knowing my specific field well!

    2. zora*

      If you’ve been doing part-time work during the job hunt, then don’t worry about explaining it! It would be more like you’ve been out of work for 5 years or more and have done absolutely no work during that time.

      1. longtime reader, almost-first-time poster*

        Thank you! This is good to know (and makes me feel more relaxed about the whole thing, too). Thanks for weighing in :)

  31. I Just Work Here*

    I manage a really great group of people and I want them to feel like it. I was hoping to hear ways a manager made you feel valued. Obviously, budget and bureaucracy make certain options more difficult, so I was hoping for more of the day-to-day things.

    1. My cat is my alarm clock*

      It’s always nice to actually hear positive feedback for starters.

    2. A Person*

      After successfully completing a major project one of our managers scheduled a meeting and secretly coordinated the “meeting” with upper management to be a surprise celebration with light snacks and recognition. Sometimes, if you’re in a job that feels thankless at times, just hearing that what you do matters to the people you don’t see on a daily basis is nice.

    3. CatCat*

      Positive feedback, talking me up in front of the Big Bosses, telling me when it’s slow to go ahead and take the afternoon off (and not have to use PTO).

    4. OlympiasEpiriot*

      Before anything else, make sure you have told them how great they are. Be specific with examples, too.

    5. Slightly silly*

      I like donuts, coffee, pedicures, massages, career guidance, helpful feedback, time off w/o having to use my bank.

    6. Blue*

      I fully agree with the others that hearing you recognize their work will go a long way. My former boss was very vocally appreciative and complimentary of my work, both to me and others, and while it ultimately wasn’t enough to make up for the lack of raises to match the recognition, it definitely helped in the day-to-day. That boss and I were polar opposites in every way, but because I know he valued my work and me as an employee, I’d certainly be open to working with him again.

    7. Zephy*

      If there’s a way you can show your team the impact their work has, that’s effective, but it’s hard to make specific suggestions without knowing what you do. Could you solicit feedback or updates from clients, maybe? Is there a non-awkward way to specifically call out individuals and compliment/praise the quality of whatever product or service they provide? Can you manage a celebratory team lunch every so often, or even just like…cupcakes or something?

    8. RandomU...*

      Things I’ve done…

      1. Tell them they are a great team (or great employees 1 on 1). I routinely tell my team I am the luckiest manager in the company because I get to be manager of the best team in the company.
      2. Treat them like they are valued by listening to them, making time for them, letting them get on with things without me getting in the way, clearing roadblocks for them, and setting and holding reasonable expectations.
      3. Silly things… my team likes bingo so we play virtual bingo every once in awhile. I bought (out of pocket) (legit) eclipse glasses for the last eclipse and scheduled an hour to watch it and eat ice cream. This one is a bit of trial and error. They hated the logic puzzle day that I tried :) Oh… that brings up an important bit, take their feedback is another way to value them.
      4. Public recognition… when possible
      5. Celebrate successes
      6. Develop them. This could be everything from helping someone advance, to giving someone an opportunity learn their current role more in depth, or to use different tools in their current job.

    9. Kathenus*

      Lots of good ideas already. One to add – get their ideas and feedback whenever possible for projects, protocols, etc. If their suggestions are discussed or even better incorporated, make sure that you are promoting to others that these ideas were generated by your great person/team. Get back to them with results, whether their ideas were used or not, so that they know the outcome. In general not just make them feel like a valuable part of the team in more ‘big picture’ ways, but actually make them a part of that team by advocating for them and their ideas. We’re doing a major project in my area right now, and my team has been very involved in every step possible and their contributions have been publicized and credited as much as possible.

    10. montescristo1985*

      Positive feedback, both in private and public. Also, time-off without having to use vacation, plus the ability to work remote from time to time.

      What I don’t care for is work lunches. I’d rather pay for it myself and actually have a break. I can’t stand eating and working at the same time…it’s one thing when the work is critical and you can’t actually take the time to stop, but when it is packaged as a perk it drives me up the wall.

      1. Rainy*

        What I don’t care for is work lunches. I’d rather pay for it myself and actually have a break.

        Can I, as a person with multiple serious food allergies, just say a hearty AMEN? I am so incredibly tired of being bought a “lunch” that I can’t eat and then have people act like I should be grateful.

    11. Llama Wrangler*

      Always passing on positive feedback, and providing flexibility as much as is reasonable.

    13. Sleepytime Tea*

      I worked for a company that sometimes took things a little too far, but this was an idea I actually liked. We each filled out a very short survey about recognition. So first off, not everyone LIKES public recognition, and others live on it. So one question asked whether you prefer to receive recognition in private or in public. Easy. Then there were questions asking if you liked recognition “swag.” Do you like having a certificate to put on your cube wall? That kind of thing. (Spoiler, I love that stuff.)

      The last few questions were things like what is your favorite coffee, what’s your favorite soda, what’s your favorite candy bar. The idea was that then if you wanted to treat everyone, you’d have a list of everyone’s favorite candy bar and the manager would go to the store and buy those and everyone got the same thing but it was also kind of personalized. I dunno, I always appreciated it. It was just a little extra effort and instead of a generic box of donuts I wouldn’t eat I got a real treat that would make my day.

      And as always, getting an afternoon off or something without having to use PTO is awesome. Easier if your people are salaried of course, but it technically doesn’t cost the company any money so when you have no budget if you can swing it that makes everyone happy.

    14. Rainy*

      Positive feedback is good. One of the things my manager does that I really appreciate is that she tells me in precise detail what I’ve been doing well, and why she appreciates it, and that she sees how my work is contributing to our goals.

    15. R2D2*

      My boss verbally tells me that he appreciates my work, often dismisses me 1-2 hours early on Fridays (I’m non-exempt, so this feels like a major perk!), and occasionally treats my coworker and I to lunch or coffee. Those little things go a long way to make me feel valued!

    16. Ella P.*

      I have a boss that used to say ‘there is so much a company can do to make people feel appreciated that costs nothing’…

      God I miss him so much…

      I think telling people directly when they’ve done a good job is great. I’m personally not into big frills and such, I work for someone now who doesn’t treat people well and then will have a free lunch and it’s… hollow. But tell me honestly that I did quality work, and it means a lot. We all want to be seen, heard and know that we matter.

      Good of you to be asking and thinking along these lines – hope whatever you choose to do is well received!

    17. I have a pug.*

      I wish my boss would tell me personally that he appreciates what I do with specific examples. I never get any feedback, negative or positive. It can be frustrating. When he says in a meeting with everyone, “I appreciate everything everybody does,” it just doesn’t make *me* feel appreciated. Group appreciation is okay, I suppose. I just wish that sometimes I could get individualized appreciation.

    18. HNL123*

      So I’m the oddball out and I dislike getting praise (public or private) since I generally already know I am doing a good job.
      (to be fair, I may dislike it because I dislike the job and the company and the boss, and my boss’ praise always just feels so EMPTY even though she tries to be specific).

      The bosses who made me feel appreciated:
      1) gave us flexibility with time
      2) small gifts like $5 coffee cards
      3) One time my boss gave me a massage gift certificate ( I think the value was $30) and OMG I loved it since it’s not something I would buy for myself
      4) was supportive of my desires to grow with the company. (They let me try on new projects, helped me get books and/or training, was willing to have career goal conversations outside of formal reviews, etc)
      5) Listened to my ideas and tried (when possible) to implement them
      6) Asked for feedback about themselves and actually made an effort to change (my current boss that I dislike has NEVER asked for feedback about HER performance)

  32. MOAS*

    I just wanted to share my experience so far as a new manager building a team within my company. I don’t really have any questions but just wanted to share. It’s interesting being on this side of the coin now. I’m happy that I was promoted and trying to have a good positive attitude.

    We started interviewing candidates for a remote position. When we created the job description, we had a few non-negotiable items (have to have experience working remotely, strong internet connection, X number of years). In our process, the resumes go through a screening by a temp in house recruiter. Once they pass the screening a phone/video interview is scheduled. Eventually interview 1 will be done by one of us managers but since we are new to this, my boss holds the interview and our director (his boss) sits in. after the interview the 5 of us talk about the candidate and decide to move forward or not. After that they would have a practical and final decision would be made.

    In the interview, my boss talks about the company and the work we do and we ask them the technical questions related to accounting/etc

    A few candidates were no shows. One had said “I’m not trying to bash my manager but she didn’t know anything and i had to teach her stuff.” It’s a remote position so strong internet connection and tech savviness is crucial and all of them had a bad internet or phone connection and were waffling when we asked them about their tech specs. One had been in the field for 20-25 years and said they never had an upset client or made a mistake, but couldn’t answer basic questions. there was no one dealbreaker, but a lot of little things that added up that made us feel they wouldn’t be a good fit. For each candidate we interviewed I was YES (to all but one) but after the roundtable discussion I saw the other perspectives.

    On another note, it’s an interesting shift to being a manager now within the company. I have a “new” team, and while I’m nice and friendly and help them out as much as possible, I find myself avoiding talking to them too much. Not in a bad way but at my company, many people are friends with each other and joke around a LOT. I just want to make a good impression ya kno? So far they are working out well. But I really need people. My boss & director are helping us get this off the ground, but it’s very firmly established that we need to get them to do XXX every day. We’re advised that we need to be on top of them every day. So far it’s been a lot of setting up, meetings, discussions etc. My co manager mentions every day that she’s so busy working on her previous tasks and has indicated she doesn’t like all the meetings that we have. I like them though lol.

    Excited to see what direction this goes.

    1. MOAS*

      Question for people here–how do reference checks work at other places? Does HR do them or th hiring manager?

      we’re looking for candidates and we have 2 house recruiters (one is part time one is temp) doing the screenings. During the first interview discussion I brought up how I (as the prospective manager for the applicant) would want to talk to the references.

      Now the reason I mentioned it is b/c when I was a supervisor on another team, we had a person on our team who was awful in many ways. HR had done the reference check and told the managers that his references were great but HR then told me they weren’t too great. Another employee who did not work out, also apparently had good references. Honestly, I haven’t said this out loud to anyone but I don’t really trust HR at this point. But I don’t know if I was out of line or out of touch or what.

    2. Lilysparrow*

      What is the nature of your work and deliverables? Are video calls a normal part of your work, or are you only using them for interviewing? Because having a glitchy connection on a phone or video call doesn’t necessarily mean they won’t be able to deliver files reliably. I work remotely with high-speed cable Internet and have no problem dealing with normal work files. But Skype and other videoconferencing/conference call applications just…suck. I’ve never used a single one of them that didn’t hang or glitch during a call, even when I was jacked into the cable directly instead of using Wifi.

      Similarly, I know how to pull up my specs, I know how to run all sorts of software and apps relevant to my job. But I couldn’t rattle them off the top of my head by memory in the middle of a job interview, and I can’t diagnose glitches on the fly.

      Of course, those things may in fact be relevant to the position you’re hiring for. But unless it’s an IT job, or something that requires video calls as a major job function, I’m not sure that focusing on things like that are going to help you identify the best candidates.

  33. A Person*

    Our team’s first summer intern started today! He reports directly to my boss, who is out of the office frequently, and will spend part of his time assigned to one of my projects. What are some good resources/tips for a non-manager to help him get a new intern started on the right foot?

    1. Officious Intermeddler*

      Help him by giving him exceptionally clear directions and deadlines. Prompt him to take notes and check in with you every day (or whatever interval makes sense) as you work together. Communicate primarily in person, not by email. It’s easy to forget that when you’re an intern, you don’t know how often your boss or the higher-up-than-you employees want you to work with them. It’s sometimes hard to ask. It’s very easy to hide behind email and not know when it’s appropriate to come in someone’s office, or call, or just ask dumb questions.

      When I have had interns, I tell them exactly what I want them to do, what the end results should look like, what pitfalls they should avoid (and if they run into them, to come talk to me), and how to work with the big boss. This is the most valuable thing you can do for someone just starting out. Those habits take time to build.

      1. Entry Level Marcus*

        “Help him by giving him exceptionally clear directions and deadlines.”

        ^This is really important. I recently did three internships over the course of a year and a half, and two of them gave me very little structure or direction. I’d get very vague projects like “why don’t you look into X?” that didn’t have clear goals, feedback, or deadlines. It was as if they expected me to come up with my own work and projects! All too often these “projects” would fall by the wayside because they never really knew what they wanted from me.

        The other internship had much more clarity regarding direction and deadlines, and I learned far more in that position than I did in the other two.

    2. Alexis Rose*

      Do you have any templates that you routinely use that you could give him ahead of time? Any previous reports or things he could read to help him get a sense of the scope/level of detail/writing style your organisation uses?

    3. Combinatorialist*

      Tell him about whatever sort of weird cultural stuff he needs to watch out for.

    5. AcademiaNut*

      Start out with a tour. Tell them where to get water and coffee (and any other related things), where the printers and spare paper are, the bathrooms, fridge to store lunch, things like what wifi network to use. Tell them what to do if they need to call in sick, who to talk to for computer issues and so on. If applicable, give advice on good places to go for lunch and other local stuff (I still remember being told by three separate people on my first day that the office cafeteria sucked, and to go across the street to one at the ministry of foreign affairs). Tell them that they need to check their work email regularly while in the office, and introduce them to people they will interact with.

      For day to day stuff – clear directions, and check in with them, face to face, on a daily basis. A three month summer internship goes by really fast. Some students are really good at taking initiative and exploring stuff on their own – give them more independence, but keep an eye on what they are doing. Others need more careful supervision and clear directions.

      And in general – don’t go in assuming that they know things that are obvious to you. Students come in with a wide variety of backgrounds and experience, and a major part of internships is learning how to function in the work world. If a problem comes up, address it quickly and matter of factly.

  34. The Fire and the Fury*

    I’m going anonymous for this one because holy-heck am I ever furious!!

    My office is currently contending with a measles outbreak (we are not a health care institution), and our HR team has been handling it in some of the worst ways possible.

    First we got an email telling us that an anonymous member of the staff MIGHT have measles. They didn’t specify the employee’s workplace, even though we have several locations, so everyone was freaking out. “See your doctor if you have concerns”.

    A few days later, we got an email confirming that the employee definitely has measles. GREAT. This time they at least specified the location.

    EXCEPT what they neglected to mention was that he employee had participated in our annual *mandatory fun* exercise. No wonder they didn’t specify the location, because we’ve all been exposed.

    AND despite he fact that the mandatory gun exercise was mandatory for actual staff AND families, hey are only covering the testing costs for employees. Never mind the staff whose kids were there either without a shot entirely (too little) or have o to had one of the two shots (the right age for one, but still too young for he second)

    AND they took pains to clarify that any of the rest of us who catch it won’t get any “special privileges” and will have to take vacation leave if they are out of sick leave. GEE THANKS.

    I’m sorry for ranting; as an immuno-compromised person, this drives me BANANAS, and as just a regular employee, it makes me mad that we haven’t thought through the consequences of our terrible HR policies.

      1. Lucette Kensack*

        I realize this is not the point of the question, but: a mandatory gun exercise WITH children??

        … I’m going to go ahead and assume that this was meant to say “fun,” and focus my ire on the fact that families were required to attend.

      2. Acornia*

        Since she used the phrase “mandatory fun” earlier, it’s just a typo of that. A slightly amusing or alarming one, but a simple typo.

    2. anon24*

      I wish we had the right to sue companies over stuff like this. If you get sick you should get all your medical costs covered plus as much time off as you need with no penalty. I also wish I could sue companies who have poor/no sick leave forcing employees to work sick thus getting me sick and causing me to not be able to work.

      I hope you, your co-workers, and your families stay healthy.

      (And mandatory for FAMILIES???? WTF????)

    3. Rebecca*

      I’m sorry you’re dealing with this. No special privileges? Take vacation time if you’re out of sick leave? And not covering the testing for everyone? Wow. Flames up the side of my face…I’m so angry on your behalf.

    4. lawschoolmorelikeblawschool*

      Oof that is MAD. Is there a general outbreak in your area (just curious). My office would revolt if something like this happened (no active outbreaks here).

    5. That Girl From Quinn's House*

      Call the Health Department, they’re the ones who handle these things and they’ll step in to handle testing.

      Usually they require the infected person to disclose where they were and then they’ll publicly list off the person’s whereabouts in the media, so anyone who was at one of those places in the affected timeframe can get medical attention.

    6. CDM*

      Hmm, This might be covered under occupational illness by workers compensation. It appears to vary by state law on how that’s defined. The original sick employee wouldn’t be covered by workers comp, but employees exposed at a mandatory work event should be covered if measles qualifies under state law. Even if your employer refuses to report, the workers comp information must be posted where visible to employees so you can report claims directly.

      One reference also states that the employer must report to OSHA.

      So you’ve got a couple of avenues available to pursue if other employees get sick.

      1. ThursdaysGeek*

        I like the idea of a Workers Comp claim for any who get it from exposure at a mandatory work event. If that works, is the company allowed to make you use your own sick (or vacation) time?

        1. CDM*

          Workers comp will reimburse employees for time off work due to an occupational illness. It’s a reduced rate from the salary, but it’s also non-taxable income. So employees wouldn’t be burning vacation or sick time, but would have less income and would have to wait for claims to process the reimbursement. Not great, but the tradeoff could be worth it for some, if you’re out of PTO or have plans for it already in place.

    7. CatCat*

      I’d be job searching. Because the following is ridiculous:

      – Not specifying immediately that EVERYONE at the event was exposed
      – Not covering the testing costs for employees.

      Also, under normal circumstances, I’d expect to use vacation if I were out of sick leave. But where there’s a highly contagious outbreak of a serious disease… come ON. Because what’s going to happen is that people who are sick or exposed through their sick family members will come in anyway if they don’t want to lose the vacation time. This isn’t the sniffles for goodness sake.

      2. Seeking Second Childhood*

        And honestly not just everyone *AT* the event was exposed — the entire *CLEANUP CREW* was exposed. Measles persists in a room for hours after a sneeze.

      3. Daniela*

        I would also be job searching because the “fun day” is mandatory for families. How on earth is that even a thing? That’s so 1950s.

    8. Em from CT*

      My instinct would be this would be a great time for Alison’s “come together as a group to talk to management” advice. If a large group of staff were able to push back and express some of these concerns they might change. Also, you know your bosses best, but you might consider a “think how bad Company would look if something worse happened!” approach.

      Obviously, this advice is worth what you paid for it (nothing! nothing, I’m a stranger on the internet) but that’d be my first approach.

    10. Ariana Grande's Ponytail*

      I have an MPH. Call your local or state health department and get them involved. Measles is a nationally reportable disease (assuming you are in the US) and the CDC will be notified at some point. It sounds like the dirty work of finding patient zero has been done for them, but the local/state/federal public health body who takes over this case will be able to offer more resources and guidance to all of you who have been exposed, and will potentially shut down your workplace and/or um, guide your employer to make better decisions moving forward.

      I’m so sorry this has happened to you.

    11. Not Me*

      I’m really sorry you’re all dealing with this! Have you contacted the health department? It’s entirely possible this was guidance from the CDC via your local health department.

      As long as the sick time off is in line with their general sick time policies I don’t understand how taking time off for this would be any different than any other illness. Unless your employer knew the employee had measles and knowingly forced all employees to be in contact with them…contagious illnesses are a part of living in a society. Do you get different time off if you get the flu from a co-worker who came in with the flu?

      Regarding the mandatory family activities…that’s not really legal. Unless they are paying you and the kids (hello child labor laws!) to be there they aren’t “mandatory”.

    12. Lena Clare*

      Oh my god, ALL of this is horrific. A mandatory gun exercise, people exposed to a disease previously almost completely eradicated but now having an resurgence because of dumb ignorance, and children who haven’t been immunized being put in danger.
      I understand why you’re furious – I would be too.

    13. The Man, Becky Lynch*

      My. God. I am speechless and that’s saying a lot considering my motormouth of feelings.

      What a f*cking atrocity, I’m so sorry that this is happening to you and your employer is The Worst Ever. I pray that nobody else gets ill and that whoever handed down these rules gets the trickling sh*ts.

    14. Bella*

      Everyone is so hard on HR.
      Maybe HR is just as furious and maybe someone from senior management is instructing senior HR on how to navigate the situation and no matter what Senior HR does Senior Management won’t listen.
      HR is often a scapegoat this stuff when they really have nothing to do with it.

      1. The Man, Becky Lynch*

        As someone who is HR, I don’t care honestly. When you work for a place and are the ones who are tasked with horrible policies, you get the fleas. The entire HR department should revolt and demand that an executive send out their horrible information otherwise you’re still an armed goon in my opinion.

        1. Doc in a Box*

          Now I’m imagining a bunch of anthropomorphic, armed HR fleas leading a revolutionary coup using the skills learned at their mandatory gun exercise.

  35. Domingo Santana*

    There are people in my workplace that wear headphones/earbuds everywhere around our office. At their desks, when they go to the restroom, getting something from the kitchen, etc. I don’t know why this irks me but it does. Our workplace is a fairly open and collaborative one so this feels like a very antisocial move. I don’t consider myself old-fashioned but this is admittedly something mostly younger people in our workplace do and it’s making me wonder if maybe I’m just not as tolerant of those darn youths as I thought I was.

    1. T. Boone Pickens*

      Oh man I can’t wait to see the responses to this. I’ll light a candle for you Domingo Santana.

        1. valentine*

          I don’t understand the objection. Why do you need them to appear to be available at all times or to know they’d be forced to hear you? (They may be able to hear you, anyway.) This really does seem to be about the appearance. It’s not that you need five people’s attention and they can never hear you.

    2. NewGlassesGirl*

      I’m a darn youth (born in the 90s)…. this irritates me to. More so when I can’t see the airpods and I try to exchange pleasantries. My office culture allows for it but my goodness.

      1. Susie Q*

        I’m in my 30s and this doesn’t bother me. Maybe that person doesn’t want your pleasantries?

    3. Acornia*

      Ah, the answer is right there in your letter “open”
      In an open workplace, people often do use headphones/earbuds to shut out the noise so they can focus.

      1. lawschoolmorelikeblawschool*

        So they can focus on walking around and using the bathroom? I think OPs point was they are wearing them at all times, not while working.

        1. Marion Q*

          There’s an interesting article in The Atlantic recently about this, actually. IIRC, the explanation is that wearing headphones/earbuds is not just about maintaing focus, but more crucially it’s people’s way to maintain a semblance of privacy in open workplace.

    4. OlympiasEpiriot*

      The only people in my office who do this are either the lab techs who have gotten into their own zen headspace and forgot to remove them when stepping away from a long lab test (and they don’t do this frequently) OR the one admin who joined us about two years ago, thinks her you-know-what doesn’t smell, yaks on the phone with friends/relatives/whoever-maybe-noone, and has somehow managed to convince some of the partners that she works So Hard and Absolutely Needs To Stay And Work On Overtime at a frequency that actually has me worried. I’ve been here a really long time, seen lots of admins come and go, have a fairly good idea of what their job duties are and have never seen this level of shvindl.

    5. Veryanon*

      There is a woman in my office who wears her phone headset everywhere and takes conference calls IN THE RESTROOM. WHILE SHE IS POOPING. How do I know this? I’ve happened to be in the restroom at the same time as her and unfortunately I heard her chatting away while she was doing her business. On more than one occasion. I don’t think she has a medical condition that would justify this (of course I would not ask her). It just really skeeves me out for a number of reasons, not the least of which is that I doubt she cleans the headset ever.

      1. Debating It*

        oh gross. gross gross gross.

        Did I mention that is so gross?

        Also what could possibly be so urgent that someone can’t wait for her to finish her business? ew.

        1. Veryanon*

          Right? I mean, I would understand if she had a medical situation, but then take off the headset before you go into the stall, for goodness sake. Ew.

    6. Debating It*

      Most people at my work wear headphones at their desk at some point during the day. Helps with the open floor plan noise, making it easier to concentrate plus its nice to listen to music sometimes.

      That being said, I’ve never seen anyone where them to the bathroom, kitchen, etc.

      That would irk me as being super antisocial but I am 30 so probably not a darn youth? Once I would probably assume they are listening to something specific like a podcast or ebook or whatever. But more than once would seem rude.

      1. Anonymous Educator*

        Yeah, I think headphones at your desk while you’re working makes sense. While walking around, not so much.

      2. Spooooon!!*

        I am in my early 40s and I have never loved it when people wear headphones or ear buds. It just looks unprofessional and says “Don’t talk to me.” I suppose it does matter what the field is and how much the person interacts with others. I guess if you are working at a quiet task at your desk for hours it is okay…I don’t know, I just think it looks unprofessional and rude.

        1. MissDisplaced*

          You realize that these stupid open office plans that have everyone sitting on top of each other and with zero privacy “don’t talk to me” is EXACTLY it or you cannot concentrate on you know your WORK. So basically employers who force the horrible noisy open office are forcing this unprofessional wearing of headsets.
          Open offices are horrible fads.

    7. Ella P*

      Well my office is not the most collaborative, at least for me. We now work from home 2-3 days a week and when I come in, after a long commute, to barely have anyone speak to me except in the hallways or elevator… it feels like a waste of my time.

      That being said, I think headphones in your cube/desk/office is fine. But when walking around, is it really necessary? I have long hair and wear headphones that can’t be seen with my hair down, but if someone stops by my cube I quickly take them off and turn anything down if I can still hear it. We did have one person who delivered mail with headphones on and we are all usually very friendly, greeting each other in the hallway types and it felt odd and antisocial to me. I think it would bother me if a lot of people were doing the same.

      I guess it all depends on the environment you work in. Maybe these folks have worked elsewhere where this was the norm?

    8. gecko*

      Yeah, I understand why people do it, but it definitely sends an instinctual “well I guess I didn’t want to talk to you ANYWAY!!! So there!!!” up my spine. (Probably particularly because the one person who goes ham with headphones in my office is a poor performer who has buzzfeed up on her screen 100% of the time, too–so I’m just grouchy about her in general.)

      That said I do understand why people do it, and that people can have a lower tolerance than I do for the normal stimuli of the office. But still–makes me irrationally annoyed.

    9. Seeking Second Childhood*

      I’m wearing headphones as we speak, and I’ll keep them on after lunch. There’s an ongoing HVAC rumble that sets my tinnitus off, and some of the people in this open area collaborate at high volume. Sometimes over the phone with other locations. When it’s work-related, it’s kind of hard for me to ask them to keep it down!

      1. Goose Lavel*

        I’d caution overuse of headphones since you have tinnitus, as it has been shown that headphone usage can exacerbate tinnitus over the long term.
        Go over to the tinnitus talk forum and search for headphones and you’ll see what I mean.

          1. Another Manic Monday*

            I got one of those for myself recently. A lot of construction work directly outside my office.

    10. JeanB in NC*

      If I’m listening with my MP3 player, I wear my headphones going to another office to pick something up. I still smile and say hi to people, and I’ll take them off if someone looks like they want to have a conversation. I’m definitely not young (very late baby boomer here), but I never thought about the impression it gave other people.

      I do wear headphones at my desk all the time, but I take them off if I hear someone coming.

    11. Anax*

      I’m one of those people who wears headphones everywhere.

      For the bathroom – I’m transgender, and the last thing I want is to have a conversation in the bathroom when I’m already feeling vulnerable and awkward. Especially if that conversation is ‘hey, you got the wrong bathroom’ – I haven’t had that one yet, but I’ve definitely had people panic, back out of the room to check the sign, then come back in. And there’s only two stalls, so I may be standing for five or ten minutes waiting for a stall to open up, which is both boring AND awkward.

      The rest of the time… man, I just don’t really want to be knocked out of the zone every time I make a cup of tea. We have lots of opportunities to engage with our coworkers socially and collaboratively, and if my headphones are on, I’m usually either focused on a complicated work task and don’t want to be derailed by a cubeside conversation as I go to get water, or I’m so tired out from all the socializing I’ve already done that I don’t have the energy for more. Or I’m just really into my podcast right now.

      I have an informal weekly team lunch, team meetings, bigger team meetings, smaller team meetings, times where I’m training with other coworkers, meetings with my manager, times where we collaborate on a work task, potlucks, parties, and the daily morning ‘so how are you today’. It’s a lot, and I need some quiet time!

      When I’m interacting with my peers, I want to be fully present and engaged – not so tired from impromptu cubeside chats that I can’t focus, which is a real risk for me.

    12. Sleepytime Tea*

      Sometimes I keep the earbuds in because I am trying to avoid social contact and get drawn into a conversation. Going to the kitchen? Why bother taking them out. Just leave ’em in and walk there and back. Especially when I don’t want to get stopped by 80 people who want to chat or ask me questions or whatever. It’s sometimes easier just to leave them in.

      I don’t really wear them when taking a trip to the bathroom though… Regardless, I don’t see it as a big deal. Sometimes I WANT to be anti-social. I’m trying to get sh*t done or I’m just not in the mood. I’m not required to be social as a part of my job. And I’m not a millennial, so I don’t think this is entirely an age thing, but it probably does, as Alison frequently mentions, depend on your office culture.

      1. Fortitude Jones*

        That was me in the office. I sometimes wore my headphones everywhere but the bathroom when I was in a bad mood and needed to get my mood stabilized. People just need to leave folks alone who aren’t bothering them – you don’t know what’s going on in somebody’s life that they may need to escape from for a couple hours.

      2. Susie Q*

        Agreed. Everyone feels so entitled to demand conversation from you. Wear your headphones where ever you want. If it’s work related and I need to talk to you ASAP, I’ll get your attention, it’s not rocket science.

    13. RussianInTexas*

      May be people don’t actually want the “open and collaborative” workplace, or it’s not as open and collaborative as you think?
      I am 40, I wear earbuds most of the time at my desk specifically so no one randomly talks to me. I don’t wear them walking everywhere, but I would wear them at the break room while eating my lunch (and I am not the only one).

      1. WonderingHowIGotIntoThis*

        I work in the Accounts Department – not traditionally a collaborative function. Especially sharing the open office space with both Marketing and Telesales.
        So yeah, headphones.

    14. TheRedCoat*

      I do this, because I am being antisocial. I have to walk to the other side of the building every time I want to use the bathroom. Sans headphones, I get pulled into all sorts of small talk. Sometimes I want to just go to the dang bathroom without doing the how’s the baby/what are you doing this weekend/crazy weather, huhhhh? dance.

      Also, when I come in and when I leave, I’m just trying to wake up/gtfo, so I am buried in my own thoughts and not feeling like talking.

    15. Ask a Manager* Post author

      Aggh, you just submitted this to me two days ago and I had an answer written which now I can’t use. Please see the note at the top of this post.

      1. Ella P.*

        Since it’s already written, could you share it here? I’d love to hear your reply :)

          1. valentine*

            Is this a legal issue? Really curious why you can’t use them. It seemed to be okay with the OP fixated on her husband being blue-collar and the Alaska/East Coast one.

          2. fhqwhgads*

            If she did that it’d be a disincentive to following the clearly posted rule. Plus half the comments would be “Is this a rerun? I could’ve sworn I read this letter already” as has happened on the few occasions when someone did this and she didn’t notice before printing her answer shortly thereafter.

        2. Iron Chef Boyardee*

          Thirded. Why waste the time and effort you took to answer the question?

      2. Interplanet Janet*

        I think you can still use it! Loads of people don’t read all the comments.

    16. The Man, Becky Lynch*

      I wonder if they’re listening to things that they don’t want to pause? Podcasts that they’re really wrapped up in and can finally focus on it because they’re not focusing on work and using it as background?

      Everyone here has them so low that they can hear and have a conversation with you. So if they’re at the microwave and you say “hey John, how’s it going?” in a regular voice, John responds in kind “pretty good how about you?”

      It could be that they’re not even listening to anything and don’t like touching their ear buds more often than they need to? It means more gunk to deal with. IDK, production workers walk around everywhere with their ear plugs in even though they’re nowhere near the machinery so this is just my life and I never thought about it much until you mentioned it.

    17. Autumnheart*

      I’m in my 40s, but I’ve done this and seen it done by people of all ages.

      When I do it, it’s because I’m listening to something that I don’t want to pause while I’m up for a few minutes (e.g. going to the restroom).

      It can read as anti-social, but honestly, I guess I don’t see it as any more anti-social as looking at your phone or laptop, closing an office door, etc. People don’t have to be open to conversation 100% of the time. Presumably these people are happy to take out the earbuds and collaborate whenever it’s needed.

      1. MintLavendar*

        This is where I come down. Especially in an open office, I can see some people just being more introverted as well, and having an easy signal for “don’t talk to me” makes the work day a lot more bearable if you’re just having a day!

    18. Mr. Shark*

      I’m generally anti-headphones/earbuds. I wear them once in awhile, and I get it, but I don’t think you need to wear them all the time, and definitely not while walking around the office.
      In an open office, I’m sure I’d be more willing to tolerate them and wear my own more often.
      It does feel like headphones/earbuds are almost a “do not disturb” sign for the most part, and that shouldn’t be the case in an office environment, when you do need to collaborate on a regular basis.

      1. Anoncorporate*

        That’s not necessarily true? In some offices you need to get work done (like a report written or emails answered.)

      2. Susie Q*

        I never thought that waiting a second for someone to take their headphones off impeded collaboration.

    19. Anoncorporate*

      I work in an open office, and people commonly wear headphones at their desks but not when they leave their desks to go to the bathroom or kitchen. If they did, it wouldn’t annoy me, but our atmosphere wouldn’t be as social or congenial as it is (it’s common to chat with people at the coffee machine and while washing hands in the restroom).

    20. Spencer Hastings*

      If I’m passing through someone else’s space, I often feel kind of like an interloper. So I might keep my headphones on to reassure others that I don’t want to bother them. Or that I’m not, like, eavesdropping on them (which I know is not really a thing in this context, but still!).

  36. ThatGirl*

    I am still in the running for the internal position I interviewed for over two weeks ago, but a decision won’t be made for at least another week.

    Which is fine – it took me two full months to get to the offer stage when I got the job I have now – but I’m IMPATIENT and clearly I am 1000% qualified so why wouldn’t they just offer me the job on the spot?? :) (sarcasm – yes I know they have to weigh other options)

    At least it’s summer Fridays so I can leave in just under two hours.

  37. Bruiser Woods*

    Is this resignation letter too much? Or should I delete the paragraphs 3 and 4 or just try a letter that doesn’t say anything negative at all?

    Dear X:
    It is with reluctance that I submit this letter. Although my time with X has been, on the whole, satisfying and productive, for quite a while now I have become less and less satisfied with the work situation.
    The lack of career progression and opportunities to contribute effectively to interesting projects, have made it increasingly difficult to feel satisfied at work. The manner in which some team members handle stress and accountability for mistakes or problems has also made it difficult for me to remain happy at work.
    Going through staff the way you have and treating them as dispensable is not a good business strategy. I was shocked at this statement that was made during a team meeting when a highly valued team member resigned: “at least this might help us because there will be less salary to be paid”. The high turnover you have experienced recently and your financial problems are not the fault of your employees, it’s the fault of dysfunctional management.
    You must also be aware that my work responsibilities on most projects have been reduced to a graduate, assistant or administration level so other less experienced (male) team members can feel they are taking on more responsibility and seniority. Furthermore, the employee who I am now an assistant to is dishonest and has made serious errors in their work he has blamed on subcontractors and concealed from you and the client. I believe in workplaces that assign work based on equality and merit, not ego and nepotism. I know there are far, far better opportunities out there for me.
    I am leaving to seek new and brighter work opportunities that will progress my career.
    Therefore, it is with regret that I ask you to accept this letter of resignation from X effective two weeks from the date of this letter.

    1. Mediamaven*

      Super inappropriate for a resignation letter. You should save that for a conversation if you feel it needs to be said. But keep in mind, you may lose a reference.

      1. Fortitude Jones*

        Yeah…I’m all for blowing shit up in your personal life when people do you dirty, but this resignation letter is a no go. I would never jeopardize my professional reputation for a bunch of assholes who I was never going to see again anyway.

        Bruiser, delete everything but the lines about you resigning and when your last day will be, and leave with grace. Sometimes saying nothing says it all.

    2. My cat is my alarm clock*

      I would delete everything other than the parts about your last date, sorry – you really shouldn’t send a letter like this.

      1. Frustrated In DC*

        No to this letter. All of it. Very much not okay.

        Suggestion:

        Dear X:

        Please accept this letter as my formal notice that I will be resigning from my position as Teapot Supervisor.

        My last day with your company will be XX. Thank you for the opportunities provided to me over the last [however long I have worked at this company].

        I will do my best to wrap up my duties and assist with transitioning them to my fellow coworkers over the next 2 weeks.

        Sincerely,
        Bruiser Woods

        1. Clisby*

          WAY too much. A resignation letter isn’t to justify your resignation, it’s to say (1) I’m leaving; (2) My last day will be XYZ; (3) Thanks for the memories.

        2. Roy G. Biv*

          Frustrated In DC —
          This is a perfect resignation letter. Short, factual, to the point. Nothing that can be used against you in a court of law.

    3. My gov't name is Jen*

      Resignation letters require nothing but a departure statement and the date of departure. If they have an exit interview, you can provide this feedback. Otherwise, if they want to discuss this in a closed-door interview, keep this in hand. Burn this as your venting and cut 95% of it out.

    4. Rimes*

      Way, way too much. A resignation letter, if one is even needed (usually not actually necessary, and should almost always be an email if so) should just state the facts of your resignation, last day etc [Dear Name, I am resigning and my last day will be (Date)]. That’s all. It’s not a chance to air grievances!

      If they do exit interviews you can bring some of this up, perhaps. But otherwise, just resign gracefully and move on.

    5. Oxford Comma*

      This is the kind of letter you write to get out your feelings and then you shred it.

      You should not send it.

      Write a standard, inoffensive, bland letter of resignation and then move on.

    6. Bex*

      Nooooooooooo! Save this for your exit interview. Keep the letter short and sweet. Something like “Please accept this letter as my resignation notice. My last day with be June XX, 2019.”

    7. londonedit*

      Yeah, that should be a conversation rather than a letter. You don’t actually need to write a ‘letter of resignation’ stating your reasons for leaving the job – you should resign in person by speaking to your manager. If the company then asks for confirmation in writing, you can just write a brief letter that confirms your resignation from the role, states your last day, and (if you want, maybe not) includes a polite sign-off like ‘Thank you for the opportunities X Company has offered me during my time in this role’.

    8. Jadelyn*

      It’s already been said, but I’ll chime in: Noooooooooooo, do not send that as your resignation letter! I’m in HR and we just recently got something like this from a disgruntled employee who quit effective immediately via email. It was like five paragraphs, called out the people she had grudges against by name, just…it was a doozy.

      And just so you know, all of us who got it (she cc’d like half a dozen people – most of HR, plus some senior management in her reporting line) now think of her and will remember her as That Woman. And while we’re certainly not blabbing to anyone outside of HR, believe me, there are some snarky comments getting made about her behind closed doors. Just want you to be aware of how the people who receive this will probably think about you for it.

      ESPECIALLY do not send this as a two week’s notice, since then you’d have all that dirty laundry flapping around for two weeks while you’re trying to work, and I can only imagine how awkward that would be.

    9. dealing with dragons*

      I just submitted a resignation letter, and it was two sentences. Take a note from Richard Nixon: “I resign as of [today’s date]; my last day will be [two weeks from now]. I will do everything I can to make the transition successful. Thanks, [Your name]”.

      The rest of your letter should go to HR during an exit interview or submitted to Legal with proof. This (to me) comes across as someone who has the opposite of rose-tinted glasses, so even things that are considered normal or fine or even things you don’t have access to information about are maybe magnified. You are making some bold claims (hiding things from clients?) and those really need proof at minimum.

    10. Sleepytime Tea*

      Do not make your resignation letter a venue for venting. That goes in your employee file in addition to basically making sure you’re leaving on a negative note. All your letter needs to be is a statement that you are leaving and when your last date is.

      If you have concerns, you can ask for an exit interview and voice them, and I would spend some time working on what kind of language you would use so that it’s productive.

    12. Kathenus*

      Another perspective on why to not send this. I’m guessing your goal is to highlight problems with this company or some of its employees/policies, which is understandable. Sending a letter like this is unlikely to be a vehicle of change for the company, but could serve to shift their focus from anything they may be doing wrong and instead diverting their focus to you writing the letter. So it is both unlikely to achieve your goal, and instead could even lead to them discounting the negative information due to how it was communicated – i.e. it’s not us, it’s Bruiser Woods. Be the epitome of professionalism and move on.

    13. The Man, Becky Lynch*

      I get it, I really do.

      But they don’t deserve this kind of candid resignation letter. It’s simply a place to state “I am resigning, my last day will be X”.

      Even at my Toxic Waste Job of Doom I left it at that. They knew why I was quitting even though they were shocked, shocked I tell you!

      If they ask for details, unleash them in the exit interview if they have those.

      But dude, I get it.

    14. Mr. Shark*

      I have to admit, I would love to get a AAM letter from the person who received a resignation letter like that, just to hear their reaction.
      I’d be tempted if I were you to send that out, but there’s no way I would do that and expect to work another two weeks at the company. That’s not going to happen. Paragraphs 3 and 4 are for last day of work e-mail to everyone, burning bridges with your former employer, mic-drop. Not for a resignation letter.
      Good luck in your future, though!

    15. NW Mossy*

      Only submit this letter if you want to spend your notice period either a) fighting with your management over who’s right about the state of the company or b) on your couch, unpaid, because you were asked to leave immediately.

      Take the high road – be as professional to them as you wish they’d been to you.

    16. Anne (with an “e”)*

      Please do not send this. Post on Glassdoor if you must. However, you should not send this letter.

    17. Iron Chef Boyardee*

      I didn’t like the wording you used at the very end: “I ask you to accept this letter of resignation.”

      What happens if they say “we don’t accept it. You have to stay here and work for us forever and ever”?

      (Sorry, but my Asperger’s makes me persnickity when it comes to the use of certain phrases. For example, I hate it when someone says “Can I have…” when they’re ordering something.)

    18. Double A*

      I asked a question about a resignation letter down thread and specifically asked if I should put some information in my letter that I thought would help me qualify for unemployment. A commenter was smart in saying I shouldn’t and even though I didn’t like hearing that it’s good advice.

      My letter was two sentenced. My first sentence briefly stated why (due to an involuntary transfer to a position I don’t feel prepared to execute), but then it just said I wouldn’t be renewing my contract and my last date is X. Maybe I shouldn’t have even given as much explanation as I did but it felt weird to just say, “I am resigning as of X date” with absolutely no context. I didn’t say anything about appreciating anything or transitioning my duties, because I’m not feeling very appreciative and I’ve had to do enough BSing in the job search that I don’t have any left over for my current employer.

    19. Bruiser Woods*

      Thanks AAM community, you are all so, so right and it was great to hear everyone’s experiences especially those from the other side. Deep down I knew this letter should never be submitted but it was therapeutic to write! The advice everyone has given will help me stay calm and rational when I do resign. I just found a post from Alison that echos the advice given above https://www.thecut.com/article/resignation-letter.html
      I’ll be using everyone’s suggestion to write something short and sweet!

    20. Susie Q*

      I would never send this. This isn’t burning a bridge, this is dropping a bomb on the city and could damage your professional reputation.

  38. Braggadocious Beetroot*

    Clash of the Director – S1.E4

    I take credit for this good news: the Directors (Ex Dir., Dev Dir. And Programs Dir) have started meeting together. I believe that my letting the Dev Dir (DD) know that the wedge they were creating between them and the Program Dir (PD) was going to implode if they didn’t do something about it. You’re welcome friends.

    Event Manager (EM) is going on maternity leave – early – which pushes the DD to the breaking point. Let’s see how our meeting next week to review the 12-week schedule will play out considering the DD wants a week-by-week playbook (is this possible?) for the upcoming events. Yesterday they peppered the EM with last minute details as the EM tries to wrap up a major golf tournament and plan for her departure. “Are you writing thank you cards for every volunteer? If not, you should start that today.” “Put together three graphics, for the local paper, to thank the sponsors and golfers.” “Go through this and that…..” None of this was brought up before the event, so why now?

    EM and DD met yesterday. DD is looking – in the past – how EM has taken time off for her dr visits since November. The handbook policy is vague and so the office guideline has been ‘if it’s more than 3-hours you take PTO’ but we’ve also used the common sense approach: we work in non-profit and time off like this, for salary staff, is one of those things we’ll be flexible about. If we were a bigger organization, perhaps a closer eye and stronger policy would be needed. However, it’s not being abused AND why is it an issue now – 2 weeks before the baby is born? So it’s possible the EM will be short 1 week of PTO, during her maternity leave, due to her regular doctor visits. Way to nickel and dime the staff! Of course this doesn’t hold true for our ED who is out all the time for her personal and kids appointments which I’m sure she attributes to comp time? Nothing the ED or DD has done towards the ED connotes care or concern for her, instead for them. As if we’re glossing over the fact that the EM will be gone and we’ll all have to work together to make her job happen. Nothing that says, “We hope you return and we’re going to treat you well so you do.” Which at this point it’s not looking great.

    ED and DD are concocting new program ventures and expansions without knowing how it would play out and what’s required, per parent organization guidelines. When PD explained how programs must be implemented, ED and DD were surprised and said, “Well we didn’t know that. No one told us.” to which PD said, ‘You need to ask us before you start something you don’t know anything about.” This has gone on for several ventures and bright ideas claiming they didn’t know …

    PD pulled aside the (outgoing) Board President to say that leadership was causing issues and doesn’t seem self-aware of their actions. (Note: I’m not sure I’d go this route, but PD has a good relationship with this Bd member) Outgoing Bd President said that they noticed some tension at the last meeting and that they’d keep observing. This tension was also evident, per attendee feedback, at a young professionals meeting last month.

    AND finally – We started the week off that the PD and staff would lunch w/ the outgoing EM for her maternity send-off (but not with the ED or DD as the EM said they cause her too much stress) – per the EM’s request. BUT this morning the ED put it on the calendar that we’re using our June birthday lunch for a surprise baby shower for the EM….

    1. Autumnheart*

      Sounds like DD is looking for ways to retaliate against EM for going on maternity leave.

      1. Braggadocious Beetroot*

        I wondered that, too. I asked the EM if she thought that the DD was trying to push her out so she could hire who she wanted. I felt really bad when the EM said, ‘I hadn’t thought about it but it’s possible.’

        I also think that the DD treats the EM (who is 10-yrs younger) as if she needs to be managed or taught something and the DD wants to take up that charge.

        DD doesn’t treat me this way at all. I have 20-yrs industry experience. I worked all the different roles from executive director to where I am now. The DD could be intimidated and treat me thusly, but she turns to me for advice and we work well together right now. We’re a lot of like in our analytical and organizationsl thinking, but I have a better people skills.

    2. WellRed*

      Uh, still waiting for the good news you promised at the start of the post. Or was that sarcastic? This sounds horrible! All of it. Are you looking for another job? I hope your EM does while on leave. Eff this with a capital F.

  39. Shiny*

    I withdrew from an interview process last week, and I’m regretting it as my job is taking us down to 80% in under two weeks and probably closing not long thereafter. This is one of two jobs I was a finalist for after 2 months of searching, and it doesn’t seem as if I got the other one. Maybe I’m looking for someone to tell me I’m not crazy for withdrawing, or if I WAS crazy, what I can do about it?

    The details: After two phone interviews that were case study based (so intense) and lasted about 2 hours each, I was told the process was on hold for 3 weeks. I said I was moving forward more quickly with other processes (true at the time), but I’d let them know if I needed to make an,y decisions. They asked me to move to the final steps, an exercise and a final interview, early. The exercise was supposed to take 4-6 hours, which seemed like a lot, but their whole process is very intensive and they were upfront about it, so I agreed. When they sent the exercise, it was with the caveat that it might take more like 8 hours. I also needed either a software package that I know, but don’t currently have on my computer, or one that is free, but that I don’t know. I asked about a loaner computer and the best they could come up with was me coming to do the exercise in their office. I gave it a shot with the package I don’t know, but couldn’t get very far, so offered to come in.

    But then I started thinking about it, and part one of the exercise was to recode an entire dataset to their specifications, then run analyses to get answers to 5-6 questions they posed. Part two was based on a desk review of the literature, writing a memo related to the issue addressed by one of their programs.

    After thinking about it, it seemed to me like more than 8 hours of work, so I withdrew, figuring either I wasn’t cut out for the pace of the job and would fail, they were wildly unreasonable, or some combination of the two. But as my job search dries up and my current job gets more and more dire, I’m really second guessing myself. Thanks for reading this far and I appreciate any words of wisdom!

    1. Jadelyn*

      Wow, that’s…wildly unreasonable, and I don’t blame you for withdrawing. Especially the bit about the software, if you’re not a freelancer, why would you have that software already available to you? Two two-hour phone interviews, then a FULL DAY’S WORTH OF WORK??? That workplace is full of bees. Be glad you ran.

    2. Cube Ninja*

      You know how Alison always talks about employers using work product from these “interview processes” being shady?

      This is almost certainly one of those places. You are Neo, they were bullets.

      1. Shiny*

        Thanks all! To be fair, I don’t think what they wanted was usable work, it just seemed outside the acceptable range. Just getting nervous about my future employment and second guessing a lot of things.

    4. LunaLena*

      One thing I learned the hard, painful way: if you sense enough red flags to turn it down, it’s probably the right choice. I ignored this once because “it might not be so bad” and “I need a job,” and the month I spent there was so stressful I would have found a free trip to hell relaxing afterwards. It ended with him threatening to sue me when I quit (in essence, he threatened to sue me for trying to do my job despite him providing zero resources that would have enabled me to do it).

      1. Fortitude Jones*

        Yup – my gut has never been wrong about a job situation, either. Every time I ignored that niggling little feeling in the pit of my stomach, it was at my own peril.

        You did the right thing for you, Shiny.

    5. MintLavendar*

      I’m gonna be the lone voice of dissent here, I guess! You’re not unreasonable for deciding not to participate in this very long process anymore – no one would be – but if you’re regretting your decision I think it’s worth reaching out and asking if they’re still looking. Some places have been burnt by bad hires in the past and end up having bad hiring systems trying to prevent that error again. Some places just get greedy and don’t realize how tight the labor market is in the US, and that people have options. I don’t really think, ultimately, that hiring processes are great representations of the greater operations of organizations. Sometimes they are! Sometimes, they’re not.

      I don’t see this as being so truly egregious to warrant a “bullet dodged” response. Again, I think it’s totally reasonable for anyone to decide they don’t want to participate in a hiring process like that, but if you’re rethinking your decision, I don’t think you’d be crazy to reach out again. Chances are, with that kind of testing, they’re having trouble finding a hire.

    6. 653-CXK*

      You did just fine withdrawing from the process. You saw it for what it was – them getting unpaid work from you as a condition of employment.

      One story about withdrawing: one interview I went to was for a court clerk in the next county over. They took me an hour and a half late (but not before saying “we’ve been trying to call you for the past hour!” after sitting at the entrance of the courtroom!) Fifteen minutes after a perfunctory interview, they told me they weren’t going to hire until late February. After lunch at the local Five Guys, I went to their website on my smartphone and withdrew from further consideration.

  40. M thee Pony*

    What are interview questions to ask to discover if a company has a toxic work culture? Are there any tactful ones? Asking “Can you describe the company culture?” Usually gets a general answer I think. “Do you enjoy working here?” seems too personal.

    I just want to know if people are secretly miserable! Or if people are turning over at a high pace! It’s especially harder when the company has no reviews on Glassdoor.

    1. Anony-miss*

      I’ve definitely asked and been asked “What do you love about working here?” – less directly personal than “do you love working here,” but it gives people the opportunity to share concrete details (for example, when someone I interviewed asked me this, I lit up talking about how we have the autonomy to take informed risks). If they can’t think of anything, or their examples are classic red flags (“we’re a family” “we work hard, play hard”) then you get closer to the information you want about whether they’re toxic

    2. ANon.*

      “What’s your favorite part about working at Company X?”
      “What’s your least favorite part about working at Company X?”
      “What sort of person excels here//wouldn’t do well here?” (Things to lookout for here would be anything that’s code for “you will have no work-life balance.”)

      Also, I think it’s fine to ask directly about their turnover rate – and super useful information to have! Could similarly try asking about employees’ average years of service.

    3. dealing with dragons*

      I usually ask what a typical day is. People overshare. “Oh, I get here at around 7:30, have 17 meetings, and am usually out by 6.”

      One that I also recommend is “what is success in this role to you?” I ask that for each level I interview at, so then you can see that your future peers expect X, your future boss expects Y, and your future uber-boss expects Z. Try to make sure those line up with each other, and if one level trash talks another level. If your peers say that they expect you to help work around uber boss, for example, take it as warning.

      I know other people ask why this role has opened, but for the most part I’ve been interviewing for new roles. I did dodge a bullet one time with this, as the only person I liked at the interview was moving to another state in a few months so I’d be replacing them.

    4. Coverage Associate*

      In law school, they suggested, “What makes this firm collegial?” (Because every place claims to be collegial) Never really worked for me.

      I do like, “What’s the best/worst thing about working here?” (Usually better to ask Best first)

    5. Llama Wrangler*

      I agree with the “What sort of person excels here//wouldn’t do well here?” I’d also add, “if you could change one thing about the culture here, what would it be?” and “What do you wish you knew before starting work here.”

      To the first question, I once got the answer “People do well here if they know how to work really hard but also can find time to squeeze in personal activities so that they don’t burn out, like maybe they do yoga in the morning.” Which was very clear code for “We all work to hard and are overachievers.” (Of course, the supervisor also told me he wanted to hire someone who could work totally independently because he didn’t want to supervise, so I already knew it wasn’t the job for me.)

      On the other hand, the job I’m in now, I was really worried was toxic, but the hiring manager answered all those questions with clear evidence that things were changing, and also transparency about what the current challenges still were.

    6. irene adler*

      Might ask why the position is open.
      If you are replacing someone, ask where that someone is going. Promoted? Good sign. Left the company? Ask why. Retired or to pursue other opportunities? okay- but then find out how long they did the job. Years? or months? Why did they leave after just a few months? If they waffle or cannot give a plausible answer or flat out don’t know, that’s a clue.
      Then ask hiring manager what things this prior employee did that they liked best. And what this prior employee did that they liked the least. Again, if the responses are vague, that’s telling you that prior employee did not want to stick around.

      Ask “what makes for a successful employee at this company?”.

      Ask the hiring manager ” How do you support your reports?” A good manager will take this very seriously and give you an earful about all the things they do (weekly one-on-ones, guard against over work, offer training & skills development, encourage questions, etc. ). A poor manager will laugh at this and might even give you a snarky response.

      Ask about what employees do for their lunch period. You are not interested in restaurant recommendations, but rather, if folks are able to leave their desks for lunch. Or are do they work through lunch? That’s a clue.

      Directly ask “what is the work environment like?”. See if they expound on this or give a cursory response.

      Try to ask open-ended questions so that they must give an ‘essay’ response.

      1. NW Mossy*

        While I realize that most people wouldn’t ever have this experience, I got burned once on the “why is this position open?” question as a candidate. The previous occupant of the position died tragically at a young age, and as the hiring process continued, it became really clear that this small organization was still grieving deeply. I felt awful when I ultimately turned down their offer, but it just had such a strong vibe of them trying to replace not just her work but also her spirit, especially when they talked about how I was similar to her in several respects.

        It was inadvertently a very revealing question to have asked, but it definitely uncorked a lot of difficult feels that I didn’t have the emotional intelligence to navigate at the time.

        1. infopubs*

          It actually sounds like you got very valuable information by asking the question. Not burned at all, just sadly informed.

    7. GigglyPuff*

      I’ve always been an intuitive person, you know someone who can watch and figure stuff out on their own from the situation. I’ve been job searching for two years now, so about 8 in person interviews, which means I’ve gotten fairly well at reading the room and situation (which stupidly in the beginning meant I didn’t engage a lot because I already got a feel for the place, now I ask the questions I already pretty know answers to because they are expected).
      Anyway my job interviews almost always involve presentations or multi people committees. So one question I like to ask is “what keeps you coming back?” then toss in a joke about, besides the paycheck. Honestly the reactions have told me more about places than any of the answers. Of course there’s going to be some reluctance to speak in a large group, but when 20+ people don’t start talking, or are avoiding eye contact with others, you know you’re going to get canned answers. It’s also better when at least 4-5 people out of at least 15, versus just two, answer even if they’re just repeating what others have said, I’ve found those to be more truthful.

      I actually finally got a job offer a couple of months ago, but it was one I wasn’t ever really excited about, first the location (which in the end was probably the least issue), tons of yellow flags, but it was really hard to articulate why I knew I wouldn’t be happy there, and I felt weird turning them down after looking so long. I finally put my finger on it a few weeks later, no one seemed happy to be there, they just were. Like I said, after a variety of all day interviews over the last couple of days, seeing how the people interact during the small amounts of down time can be key. At this place, there was no banter, no friendly jokes, no collegiate chatter. The one line I actually remember is them making a joke about someone, which after meeting the person later, was probably related to a disability, which I felt was super inappropriate. Once I put my finger on this, because I am someone who enjoys interacting with colleagues, even if it’s just being excited about whatever you are working on, made me feel way better about turning down the job.
      So my advice, read the room, really listen to the answers of what they are and aren’t telling you, and how they are telling you. I know it can be hard to do that because it was be overwhelming and fast paced during the interview, but take the time afterwards to just reflect and try to go over the interview in your head.

    8. Sleepytime Tea*

      One question that has been a huge eye opener for me was asking “what would you like to see accomplished by the person in this position in their first 6 months.” I know, that doesn’t really ask about culture, however, WOW has it told me a lot about culture. I’ve gotten answers like “we expect that it really takes about a year for people to get fully up to speed, so at 6 months we like to see x, y, and z” and it’s totally reasonable expectations. Great! I’ve also been told “here’s the laundry list of totally unreasonable things we’d want to see happen” which told me “holy shit, they have zero idea of how this type of stuff works and think that I have a magic wand and they are probably going to ride me into the ground.”

      So far, the answer to that question has been incredibly telling and pretty spot on.

      1. GigglyPuff*

        Oh, I ask this too! The most eye opening was basically, “we don’t expect you to accomplish anything in the first year because there’s so much institutional knowledge to learn”. Ummmm, WTF?

    9. Kathenus*

      I’ve used a bit of a different phrasing, both when the interviewee to learn about the organization, and when I’m interviewing others. “What do you like most about the organization/position, and what would you change if you could?”

  42. Jennifleurs*

    Just got a rejection email today from an interview I had two days ago. Kind of gutted. I thought it hadn’t gone too badly. Trying not to start catastrophizing that I’ll never get another job.

    Asked for feedback but doubt I’ll ever hear anything.

    Oh well. As my friend said; it was worth a try.

    1. Overeducated*

      I’m sorry. That’s always a blow. There will be other jobs, this isn’t your only chance!

      1. Jennifleurs*

        Thank you very much. That’s true, it’s not my only chance. I’m just worried it’ll turn into a two-year slog like my last hunt. I really am not great at interviews.

    3. Reba*

      Re: “thought it hadn’t gone too badly” — you are probably still right! It may have been a stupendous interview, but there is just some reason, that you might never know, that they chose someone else. Sorry about the disappointment. I hope you can do something kind for yourself this weekend!

  43. CDM*

    Resigned from my job today, and start my new one July 1. It’s a stretch job for me, and I know that reading AAM and commentary and using the advice on interviewing and negotiating helped me tremendously. I negotiated an extra week of vacation before accepting the position, so I have the same as my current position. Chose to go for that rather than salary, as I’m satisfied with the 10% bump (and shorter commute! and no mandatory hour unpaid lunch!)

    I was referred in, and didn’t see the job description until after my phone screen, lol, so didn’t get to use the resume and cover letter help much beyond polishing up (but not customizing) my resume before sending.

    Thanks Alison, and all posters, and best wishes and good luck to everyone who is job hunting!

    1. Zephy*

      Nice! Enjoy your month off. Do you have any plans, or are you just going to enjoy vegging out for a bit?

      1. CDM*

        Well. it’s two week’s notice, so not a whole month off, just two weeks. I have my daughter’s high school graduation and then a planned vacation trip to Montreal and Quebec, but I get a few extra days after that to enjoy before starting. I figured there was no good reason to come back here after vacation to work three final days and leave again. Better to finish up before my pre-planned days off.

        I wasn’t entirely sure that current job would not walk me out the door today, (everything is packed!) but since I’m going to a completely different sector, they’ve decided to have me work out my notice. It’s for the best, but I am very slightly disappointed in not getting a full month off, lol.

    2. Seeking Second Childhood*

      Congratulations — enjoy your summer vacation , even if you use it for grownup things!

    3. Clever username goes here*

      Are we twins?? I am also resigning, and starting a stretch job in a couple weeks. Also used Alison’s advice to negotiate more vacation! I am really looking forward to growing and doing something new. Congrats on your success!

  44. Bee's Knees*

    Had a guy come up to ask a question. I could see him, but he couldn’t see me. He asked to see Boss, who was out that day. He says, “Oh, well where’s….. that girl?” Alrighty then. Nevermind that I’ve been here six months. It’s shocking how often people don’t use my name. Just now a guy walked up to my office, and asked someone else if “she” is here. Just take two more steps forward. I’m right here at my desk. My name is not hard to remember or pronounce, and I am not Voldemort. I am the only one with my name in the building. Not that hard.

    1. Fey*

      Ugh. I’ve been there and I was seething too. Happened to me at my last job with this one guy (only him). I’d been working there two years as the Office Manager/Recruiter. He knew my name, he just didn’t want to say it. I decided to be petty. In my weekly office management email (where I’d make some announcements and/or tell people to do or not do certain things), I added a gif of Destiny’s Child’s singing ‘Say My Name’, reminding people that if they needed something for me to… “say my name”. I think he knew it was directed towards him because he started calling me by my name after that.

      Do you think you can say in a lighthearted manner to the next guy who refuses to say your name, “Hey X, do you still not know my name? My name is Bee’s Knees!” or something like that?

      1. Bee's Knees*

        I could. With a few exceptions, most of the people who work here are fairly easy-going. I don’t mind the endearments (I’m in the South, it’s super common where I live, and everyone who does it is respectful) it’s the what’s her names, and the ‘that girl’s that I have an issue with. I mean, I don’t know all of their names, but there’s 175 of them, and one of me. If you want something from me, use my name.

        1. Coco*

          I would be tempted to say ‘what girl? Did somebody bring their child to work today?’

          That kind of thing annoys me. If the person said ‘where’s … I forgot her name… the analyst who deals with project x’ It would be so much easier to deal with

    2. Zephy*

      I work in an office with 5 other women and 1 man. All of them sit to the right of me. I’ve had people come in to the office and ask “is she here?” while gesturing toward my right. There’s five “she’s” over there, you’re going to need to be more specific.

      1. Bee's Knees*

        We’re like that with Mikes. Out of ~175 people, we have at least 15 Mikes. People will call and ask for Mike, and it’s like… you’re going to have to give me a little more to go on.

    3. Blue*

      If I were one of the people right outside your office, I’d probably start responding to, “Hey, where is she?” with, “Do you mean Bee’s Knees?” or “Which ‘she’ are you looking for?” Would they be sympathetic and willing to help?

      1. Bee's Knees*

        When they’re there they would. Because of the nature of our jobs, I’m usually in my office, while most everyone else on the hallway is out on the floor. I’m also the first office you come to.

  45. Temperance*

    My super-annoying “almost done” intern, who was supposed to be out of my life as of today, didn’t show up yesterday or this morning.

    She is over 35, but has severe ADHD that she has chosen not to treat (her choice, she’s an adult, whatever). She is horrible at being on time for anything, and tasks take her probably 3x as long as they would take someone else. She’s also annoying AF, but I don’t think I can or should address the “you need to talk less and learn how to read social cues of when someone is busy if you’re going to work with lawyers” point.

    1. Temperance*

      I accidentally hit post too fast: am I obligated to chat with her about her issues, or can I just be thankful that she’s done?

      1. Shiny*

        How long has she been an intern for? I would argue that as part of supervising her internship, you were obligated to bring up these issues when you first noted them, but if she’s already moved on, I’m not sure there’s much to be gained in tracking her down to discuss them.

        1. Temperance*

          So, I brought it up and made the point clear on multiple occasions that “we can be flexible” doesn’t mean “show up at 4:45 p.m. and work until 9 p.m.”. She takes on too many obligations at once, and due to what I’m assuming are executive function issues from the ADHD that she won’t treat, she just can’t do time well.

          She doesn’t retain information well, either, FWIW.

          1. Shiny*

            That sounds like you’ve done your due diligence to me. It’s too bad she couldn’t take the opportunity to learn.

          2. Seeking Second Childhood*

            I’m ADD, not diagnosed until my 40s.
            By my 30s I had long since learned the art of checklists and wristwatches, I just didn’trealize why I relied on them so much more than friends & family did.
            Sounds to me like she’s using her diagnosis as a cheat, not as a way to understand herself and become who she wants to be. (Unless she wants to be a slugabed I guess!)

    2. The Man, Becky Lynch*

      I think you’ve already tried enough during her time there. You can only do so much and at this point, it feels like beating a dead horse to me.

      You can’t make someone understand and this is on her. Maybe it’s a bad fit and she’ll be fine or she’ll flounce around through life and hopefully someone will get through to her. Not your problem.

    3. Close Bracket*

      I don’t think I can or should address the “you need to talk less and learn how to read social cues of when someone is busy if you’re going to work with lawyers” point.

      Why not? She’s an intern, not a peer. Doesn’t matter that she’s 35. She’s there to get mentoring not just do a job.

      Doesn’t matter now, but you could have been addressing this all this time.

  46. SadMidwesterner*

    Ugh. Just found out my PTO at my new job doesn’t kick in until 2020. I’m simultaneously annoyed with myself for not clarifying that and with them for not making it obvious. Makes me very nervous to have no room to take days off for anything other than severe sickness for the next six months. Can anyone give me assurance that this is doable? I do have two personal days but I’ll be saving those for the holidays.

    1. Dragoning*

      That sucks, but at least we’re entering the part of the year (in the US, at least) with the bulk of the normally-paid holidays.

      I don’t get any PTO, although I’m allowed to take days unpaid. It’s rough, but manageable.

    2. Toastedcheese*

      I had a nine-month probationary period at my current job (public sector). It wasn’t awesome and I think it is a dumb policy. However, I was accruing vacation time during those months, I just couldn’t use it. Having a big nest egg of vacation time to use at the end was pretty awesome.
      I did have sick leave from day 1 – hoping this is the case with you!

    3. Nicki Name*

      My first full-time job was like that– very generous vacation benefits if you stuck around for a while, but nothing your first year, and a pro-rated amount in your second calendar year based on your hire date in the first one. It sucked, but it was survivable.

    4. MissKatie*

      As someone who has worked most of her adult life in the restaurant industry…PTO is a luxury. Not a necessity. You will find a way to do the things you need to do. I presume you still get two days off a week? You can get a lot done in two days and if you are able to take an extra day of un-paid time off then you can have a nice long weekend with 3 days. Also, most of the time when I have started a new job, I try to wait 6-9 months before planning a long (long enough to need PTO) vacation anyways.

      1. Catleesi*

        I disagree PTO is a luxury. It’s a benefit that all good employers that care for their employees’ well-being should offer. Just because the restaurant industry tends not to do this, doesn’t mean it’s a luxury. It means that industry treats employees poorly and doesn’t offer them a standard and basic benefit. And taking an unpaid day off is not an acceptable alternative – even if it’s something that someone can afford (which many cannot.)

    5. Belle of the Midwest*

      I went through this many years ago–started working at a job in March where I had to work six months before I could take time off. Because it had 8 paid holidays and a sick day a month that could accrue from the start date, and the PTO was 20 days rather than 10 and I could take 10 days at the end of that six months, it was good in the “long run” But that was my first job out of college and oh that was a long, lonely, and miserable summer. I always made sure to save and take time during warmer weather from then on. you can do this. Just take a day at a time.

    6. ANOTHER friday anon*

      in my country, the probationary period is usually 6 months in which you’re not supposed to take vacation (some companies ban it outright) unless you pre-negotiate or are sick or something (you’re always allowed to be out when you’re sick!). I’ve done it plenty of times, it’s totally doable.

    7. Seeking Second Childhood*

      Might be worth looking ahead to your regular appointments and seeing if you can get them rescheduled to Saturdays or evenings– do it soon because if available, those slots fill up fast.

  47. Mimmy*

    Resume question:

    I’m an instructor at a vocational rehabilitation training center but looking to move on and want to make sure that I’m detailing my job in the best way possible.

    Teapot Training Center 3/2017-present
    Instructional Aide <–this is the official title on record now I believe
    – Provide one-on-one instruction to [specific population] in X using the Y method
    – Co-facilitation A and B activities during [special program during the summer, which I describe] (7/2017 and 7/2018) <—will probably do again this summer
    – Other projects as needed

    That last bullet point is what I'm not sure about. I have performed other tasks aside from what I outlined above. Some are tasks related to instruction, such as keeping progress notes and presenting at student case conferences. Others have been more or less one-off or occasional projects, such as 1) helping with scheduling when the admin assistant, who normally does it, was on a brief leave of absence, 2) a project compiling yearly orders from a specific catalog and 3) occasionally speaking with students on their ADA rights. I also gave an ADA presentation to the staff recently.

    I am also concerned because some jobs I'm interested want to see progressive responsibility in prior jobs: That has not been the case (probably because it's a government job, and it's one that doesn't lead to growth unless you change jobs). That might be for a separate thread though.

    1. Aspiring Chicken Lady*

      Describe your other projects briefly. Doing them just once is fine – it’s still an accomplishment, especially if it’s relevant to your career change.

      Don’t worry about progressive responsibility in terms of job titles. Sometimes it just is what it is, especially in government jobs. Tell a great story about how you have outgrown the basics and do that job really well, and that you’ve developed skills you’ll use in your next one.

      Good luck!

    2. Analytical Tree Hugger*

      This reads like a list of job responsibilities, rather than accomplishments. I do agree that you including the other projects would be helpful if they are relevant to the jobs you are applying for.

  48. ToBakeorNottoBake*

    Should I be handling this food/snacks situation with a coworker differently? (TL:DR coworker wants everyone to bring in baked goods so she’s not the only one doing it but she’s the only one keeping score (and we also all bring in lots of stuff, just not at the times she wants us to).)

    Coworker is a great baker and will bring in treats sometimes for big meetings or someone’s birthday. It seems like her preference that we do stuff like this for all big meetings and birthdays.

    She’s also clearly keeping score in her head. She talks a lot about how she doesn’t want to be come the person who is supposed to bring in baked goods (which makes sense!).

    The problem is this baking coworker will decide someone needs a big birthday thing but will feel like she’s brought in too many baked things lately and will push others to volunteer to bring things in. This bugs me a LOT. The birthdays always fall at times when I just don’t have the time or energy to make a big thing at home and bring it in. I’d rather continue to bring things in as I feel like it, rather than getting an assignment for a particular thing. And for big meetings I run it’s enough of a task for me to prep and run it, I don’t also like the added expectation of bringing food for all.

    I and some others bring in things on occasion, although I don’t really do it for birthdays. We all also have different ways of being generous in this area—we have a coffee/tea station and lots of us make sure there are bags of good tea and coffee there, as well as supplies for making it. Some people keep treats on their desk.

    There are a couple of people who don’t ever do this kind of thing (our manager never bakes for birthdays because he doesn’t want to set a precedent), but in general we’re all going with the flow and chipping in where/when we feel like it.

    I think she’s categorized me as one of the people who doesn’t contribute “enough” because she mentions it all the time to me and she goes to a lot of effort on our small, immediate team to push for everyone’s birthday to be recognized…EXCEPT for my birthday, lol. Which I don’t care about, really, but it’s also hard not to notice when she gets people to bring, like, a potluck in for one person, and nothing for another.

    She doesn’t use the coffee/tea station much and sometimes when I do bake I happen to bring stuff in on her days off. So maybe she just doesn’t see me contributing as much.

    What’s weird is that I did once go all out with a pie and she got really weirdly competitive about it and acted like I was making it a contest between her and me, which is silly because she is closer to professional level and I just like to sometimes bake something challenging. So I can’t quite figure out what she wants here.

    I just kinda feel like I can’t win. When she brings it up I talk about it being important that people don’t feel pressured to make a big thing about all the birthdays because our team has grown so much and it’s just not possible, and that she’s totally right to not want to feel obligated to do everything herself as well. I get the sense that she still expects me to take it upon myself to organize the next birthday and offer to bring in lots of stuff for it. Me specifically somehow even though a few others like never bake or organize.

    1. Colette*

      How very weird.

      Thoughts:
      1) you don’t have to bring stuff in just because she wants you to – you know this and have been doing it, but I wanted to call it out specifically
      2) Have you specifically told her that you are happy to bring food in on occasion but aren’t willing to be scheduled to do so?
      3) Have you told her that you don’t agree that birthdays and big meetings should be celebrated with baked goods, and that if she believes they should, she will have to be responsible for providing them?

      1. ToBake*

        1) – thanks, I do need to remind myself that any obligation here is in her head!
        2) – no, but I should figure out a way to work that in the next time it comes up. It’s tough because years ago the team was smaller and there was a bit more of a precedent for celebrating with food and everyone pitching in, and sure, it’s fun when that happens and no one feels pressured, BUT in hindsight some of that was her pushing for it, too. So there’s a little bit of “you’re not in sync with the team spirit” going on here, but I think that’s really shifted a lot and for some reason she has made me the culprit in her head.
        3) – no, that’s not the kind of thing I could say to her without offending her, but I think at some point I’ll just share that I don’t feel my own birthday needs a special treat, although it’s a nice thought.

        1. valentine*

          She’s in danger of ruining it for everyone. Just because she’s appointed herself cruise director doesn’t mean you have to go along. Tell her you like the casual ways everyone is a good neighbor and keeping score or formalizing it would kill the fun for you and then do what you feel.

      2. Sammy*

        Agree with a lot of the comments here. I like Alison’s response to weird requests “Sorry, that’s not going to work for me.” I would just ignore her comments and not let it take up space in your head as a previous commentor said.

    2. anna green*

      omg. I would never bring in anything again. Too much drama. You’re right you can’t win.

    3. lawschoolmorelikeblawschool*

      Sounds like you can’t win. I would tell her I’m not interested in baking for coworkers, and her decision to occasionally do so doesn’t obligate anyone else. That’s probably a bit harsh but she is being weird. I am an avid baker and bring stuff in to work every few weeks and (a) never pressure anyone to eat it, just let it be known it exists and (2) never suggest others need to do the same? That would never even occur to me.

    4. Overeducated*

      This is kind of weird, yeah. I think absolutely refusing to bring in something if directly asked might be a little too aggressive but it is perfectly acceptable to bring in a pack of cookies from the 7/11 on your way to work (or something along those lines) and just say you didn’t have time to bake from scratch if asked.

      You could also say something like “Hey your baking is great but it seems like you are feeling some pressure to provide food for every birthday or big event, why don’t we do a few without snacks? Working full time is work enough, it wouldn’t be good for anyone to feel obligated to give up their free time too.”

    5. bunniferous*

      I would be very straightforward and tell her this. And that if she feels obligated that is all in her own head, and she has the power to take that off her own plate. Barring that, if she wants to organize a list for people to sign up to bring things in future she can do that but she cannot obligate anyone to do so.

      At a former job of ours we celebrated birthdays by buying a cake that could be picked out, and picked up at the store (they would write on it for free) and no one had to bake anything. It is nice to have a standard way to celebrate birthdays if your office does that-but the way it is set up now sounds like it is guaranteed to cause hurt feelings and aggravation.

    6. Natalie*

      Nope, you can’t win. And tbh this is taking up way too much space in your head, rent free. If she doesn’t want to be the office baker, a super easy solution to that is to stop baking for the office. You don’t have to help her understand that, or help her understand she’s being unreasonable. You don’t need to get her to understand or accept your position.

      I would probably stop talking to her about this entirely, although that’s certainly influenced by it sounding intensely boring to discuss it so much. I wouldn’t announce it or anything, just use the usual deflection tools when it came up.

      1. peanut*

        Yes, this. Ignore her when she makes comments about you not baking enough or not bringing things in on what she thinks is a good enough schedule. If she asks you directly to do something, just smile and say, “that won’t work for me” or something, and walk away. If she just makes passive aggressive comments that don’t need a direct response, again just smile in acknowledgement but then walk away.

        Nothing you do will be good enough for this person, so just remove yourself from her whole agenda.

    7. Blue*

      Is she the only one who cares about celebrating birthdays, or is there are larger desire for this? If she’s the outlier, I think you have more options for pushing back. If not, I say tell her you can’t commit to bringing food at certain times and then ignore her.

    8. Joielle*

      I’d probably just remain willfully oblivious… like if she complains to you that nobody else brings treats for birthdays, even if you know the comment is pointed at you, say something like “ah, yeah, that’s hard” or “you don’t have to go to all that trouble” sort of sympathetically and don’t engage any further. If all you’re getting is a sense of expectation from her, ignore it. If she actually asks you to bring something in, tell her you can’t. It’s not your job, it’s not her job, it’s not a real problem, and if she wants to spend mental energy on birthday treats that’s on her.

      This may be the nuclear option, but you could cut down on going to the birthday celebrations/eating the treats, and you could be the “not that into birthdays” person. Maybe others would follow suit. Maybe she’d stop if she felt like people didn’t appreciate it sufficiently.

      1. LunaLena*

        The “nuclear option” is what I would suggest as well. Baking Co-worker obviously expects this to be a tit-for-tat thing, so refuting the tit means not having to participate in the tat. She can’t guilt you into doing anything if you don’t owe her anything. I used this tactic once when a new roommate moved in and took over all the cooking duties in the house, then demanded that my brother and I each pay them $80 every week to cover ingredients and labor. We simply declined and said we would make our own food (and pointed out we never asked them to do this to begin with), and the idea was never floated again.

        I also wonder if Baking Co-worker’s “weird competitiveness” over the pie is the real reason behind all of her baking and pressure to get others to bring in baked goods. Like, she goes to the trouble of baking things and making a big deal out of it so people will like her, but she also wants others to bake things so she can show how superior her baking skills are so that other people will appreciate her even more.

    10. Batgirl*

      Generally, a cheerful nope will do. Something else you might do is model the British tradition of providing your own cakes for your own birthday if she’s leaving you out. People who want to celebrate their b’day are in charge of doing so and people who are not fussed are empowered to ignore it and no one owes anyone (Plus no nut allergy people will have to mime eat walnut frosting). You could even say to her “Oh I’m going to be sorting out cake just for my own birthday and so I’m not going to be part of the other birthday pool where people owe each other.” You can always change your mind.

    11. 2 cents*

      Could you suggest to your manager that you have a once a month birthday bake instead of all the little daily/weekly contributions? Then people who want to bake can sign up for one month and be done with it (and your coworker will obsess about what others are bringing but that’s her problem!). This bs about going all out for one person but not for another and the constant comments about contributing are too high school for words!

  49. alphabet soup*

    My manager wants me to help interview a new candidate because I will be working closely with them. However, the reason the position is open is because the last person quit due to my manager’s poor management skills (which culminated in our manager yelling at us, which meant having to get HR involved). My manager is trying to improve, but I have very little faith right now. In addition to my manager, there’s a lot of other bad things about this job (including incredibly poor pay). It’s not a good job, and I don’t want any new hire to face the same disappointments and hurdles that I and my former teammate have faced.

    So, how do I give candidates a sense of what they’d be getting into while still remaining professional during the interview?

    1. Alexis Rose*

      I don’t think you can? That’s really not your place, you can’t really slip them a note when you shake their hand that says “RUN!”

      What you CAN do is be able to weigh in on hiring a person you will be working closely with and be able to have a say on that person’s fit, skills, etc. that might help make your job more pleasant if they were hired. At the end of the day, people need jobs for all sorts of reasons and are adults who can decide for themselves if they want to stay at a job that might not be a good fit for them/might not pay what they need to survive, etc.

      1. alphabet soup*

        Yeah, I guess you’re right.

        I just have this concern because I know my manager is very charming, and really oversells the role. So even though people are adults and should be able to decide for themselves, they’re deciding based on inaccurate information.

        I just want to make sure that candidates get a sense of what they’re really getting into, especially because this is an entry-level role hiring folks straight out of college, so they may not know how to proactively ask certain kinds of questions. And also because my manager is expecting me to be a “mentor” to this person, meaning, I’m going to be responsible for training them. I already trained someone (the teammate who recently left) who felt like they were lied to about what this role is, and it was incredibly difficult.

    2. BrightLights*

      What are the most challenging parts of working with your manager? Ask questions about times in the past the interviewee has dealt with something like that. “Under times of stress, people don’t always present themselves at their best. Tell me about a time you experienced friction between yourself and a manager or colleague. How did you handle it?”) Ask enough questions in that vein and either a savvy interviewee will get the picture, or you’ll get a sense of their capacity to deal with nonsense. Hopefully both.

      1. alphabet soup*

        That’s a really good suggestion. I’ll try to come up with a list of questions in that vein. I hope they’d get the hint, but you make a good point that even if they don’t, I’ll be getting valuable info about their ability to do the job.

        1. BrightLights*

          I’ve had a reasonable amount of success with this when I’ve assisted other departments in hiring. Like, “your new boss can’t prioritize and chases shiny ideas without thinking about them, throwing his people into chaos, and this position is open to provide a buffer between that dingbat and the people trying to get work done” –> “Tell me about a time where you and your supervisors disagreed about the direction of a project.”

  50. Watermelon M*

    Ok, going off the Op#1 from the post today, anyone have issues with drawing boundaries with their parents when it comes to work?! Am I the only one?

    My parents are immigrants and very much expect to be involved in many parts of my life. They always want to know if I’m making enough money to survive. Once, at my first job, I made the mistake of telling my parents the salary offer and it spiraled into a “That’s not enough! Find another job!” and was very stressful.

    Now, when I tell my parents that my salary and the offer I got is none of their business, they get into a crying/angry fit where “We raised you and took care of you, the least you could do is tell us how much you make so we can make sure you are OK! We just want to make sure you are getting paid fairly.” But my parents do not work in my field and are not familiar at all with it. Sigh. Therapy has been helping some too.

    1. No Coffee No Workee*

      Ugh, I feel your pain. I’m middle eastern, and many families in my culture are like this. It’s hard for some of my peers to separate their lives!

      Do you live at home? Are there other aspects of your life that your parents have say over (medical decisions, housing, dating, etc.). If they interfere/have commentary on a lot of different aspects of your life, it’s going to be even more difficult to separate. But, if it’s really just the financial part — sounds like you might have to just be uncomfortable while you set up boundaries.

      1. No Coffee No Workee*

        Another thing is to maybe ask them what they *think* you should be making? Is that even realistic for your field? You can pull a salary report for what people at different levels in your field make, so you can manage their expectations?

        Although, that is inviting them even further into your finances, and may open them up to telling you to change careers, so maybe not…lol!

        1. Watermelon M*

          Oh lord, I’m pretty sure they would think that talking to them about what they *think* I should be making would turn into a “you’re being disrespectful” talk. I don’t live with them anymore, but when I did after grad school for a couple of months, it was a mess! There was no regard that I was a whole 24 year old adult with a career and I had to move three states away. Now I’m 6 states away. So many kids of immigrants share our plight!

          1. Batgirl*

            How about if you presented it as respectfully asking their opinion? Kind of like, walk up to them to disrupt the dynamic where they are chasing you. So, you could say: Hey I’m interviewing for this job/asking for a raise where the salary range is x to y; what do you think? (I wouldn’t be above lowballing their expectations or outright lying either). Also, if you have them on an information diet then I would present a job I already had as one I was still negotiating for. But find out in advance what’s acceptable, lose loads of imaginary jobs to their expectations before finally emerging triumphant. Either that or say: “I have plenty and it’s the market rate. You can be happy for me or I can leave”.

    2. Colette*

      I think you may be able to affect the reaction with how you communicate the message (assuming you’re actually telling them it’s none of their business). Maybe try “It’s a fair salary for the job, and I’ll be able to handle all of my expenses on it” or “Mom and Dad, I need you to believe me when I tell you it’s a good salary” or “You’ve raised me to recognize how important it is to be paid fairly, and you can trust me when I tell you that they are paying me fairly”. I.e. don’t share the numbers, but reassure them that you’re OK.

    3. That Girl From Quinn's House*

      I went through this during the recession. I went to a Good College (TM) and graduated into the recession, so I never got the Good Job Befitting Someone from a Good College.

      My parents spent tons of time yelling at me as if I’d screwed up somehow and was wasting my education and not living up to whatever standard they’d expected of me. Basically, they’d supported me through a Good College so I’d get a Good Job, and I didn’t, so it was obviously my fault somehow.

      They shut up when I got married, at least.

      1. Seeking Second Childhood*

        My mom wasn’t 1st generation and she wasn’t a yeller…but oh her sighs spoke volumes. She couldn’t wrap her head around what the recessions did to pay scales, let alone what it meant to be part of the “baby bust” where the boomers ahead of me were a bottleneck on non-entry level jobs.

    4. Zephy*

      Boundaries, boundaries, boundaries. CaptainAwkward.com is an advice blog similar to this one, but more about navigating interpersonal relationships – the good Captain has a lot of letters about managing relationships with one’s parents as an adult.

    5. Marion Q*

      God, I could write an essay on this topic.

      I have a similar issue with salary. As a recent grad with no office work experience, I know I don’t have much negotiating power and so I know my current salary (in my first job after university) is on the normal range for someone with my profile. But does my mother get this, even after I explained over and over about market condition and other factors? Nooooo.

      Her solution? Go get a graduate degree so that employees would be impressed and pay more. Then I had to explain that it doesn’t make business sense to hire someone with a graduate degree but zero work experience over someone with undergraduate degree but with work experience.

      Actually, she doesn’t have any business sense. It sounds mean, but her idea of maintaining employment is by 1) make your bosses like you, and 2) make them pity you. She never gives any advice on working professionally; it’s always “tell them your personal hardship so that they’ll feel sorry for you and keep you employed.”

      …well, that was cathartic.

    6. Seifer*

      Ooooh, I relate to this. I’m first gen Vietnamese American. I’m also female, and doing better career-wise than my brother (my brother doesn’t necessarily have a bad job, but to Vietnamese parents, office job = the best). This has caused many family gatherings to go as follows:

      My grandmother will ask how my job is. I tell her it’s fine. She then asks how much money I make. I say, “enough.” She, like your parents, throws a fit about how we’re faaaaamily and how there shouldn’t be secrets like that between family. Sometimes she’ll hit me “for sass” but that hasn’t happened much in recent years, so small favors. I tell her what I make in order to stop the chaos. She then makes a stink about how I should be supporting her since I clearly have so much extra money, and if I’m not going to, I should just give my job to my brother since he understands that grandma is old and poor and needs support. She will then insist that I just bring my brother into my work place, as if I am a hiring manager or something, so that she can start getting supported properly, for heaven’s sake! Then she tells me that I should quit my job afterwards because I shouldn’t be making more money than the boy of the family anyway. Great talk, grandmother.

      Then we get to my mother, who gets nervous that I make too much money because “men don’t like it when their wives make more money than they do and you’re scaring off potential future husbands!!!” She thinks that I need to stop being so ambitious and go back to making my shit wages at the first company I worked at. But before I leave, I need to get my brother in at my current company so that he can make good money since he’s the boy and needs to make good money and I’m just the girl and don’t need to be making that much money anyway. Great talk, mother.

      Thankfully my dad is like, “if daughter ends up making six figures before she’s 30, I will be so proud.” And then my mom wonders why he’s my favorite parent.

      1. LunaLena*

        Oh my god, I’m Korean-American and this is SOOOO familiar (except for the grandma part, since I don’t see either of my grandmothers very much). My dad has been mad at me for over five years now because I got married before my older brother did instead of waiting to for him to get married first, haha.

        1. Watermelon M*

          @Seifer as well, but I’m also Korean-American and the experiences are SO RELATABLE. I wonder if my parents ever wonder why their daughters don’t talk to them often besides very casual topics every other week. Sigh. Sorry, y’all.

          1. LunaLena*

            So completely true! I wish I had some better advice for you, but what worked for me with my parents was “I make enough.” When they pushed for details or accused me of not wanting to say because it must be a shamefully small amount, I would tell them “It’s enough to live on. It won’t always be like this, I’m just starting out. If I need help, I’ll let you know.” Luckily it never came to that, and to be honest, I probably would have sold a kidney before I actually turned to them for help, but I think it made them feel better to know that I acknowledged their concerns and was willing to concede that they might be right.

        2. Seifer*

          Ahhhhhhhahahaha. I’m laughing to keep from crying. Asian parents! They love us to the point of complete and total smothering! And then wonder why we don’t talk to them!

          Ah, the marriage thing. So for a while my plan was to get married at a courthouse and then tell my mom like six years later (“what? Oh, no, we got married six years ago mom, don’t worry!”) and then I realized my mother would likely make me have “a real wedding” and just conveniently plan the whole thing for me and trick me into attending. So I. Will cut out the middle man and just. Have the damn wedding.

          1. LunaLena*

            Oh gods, I made sure to pay for and plan my entire wedding myself for that exact reason, and my mom STILL tried to force me into doing things her way. Like, she didn’t like the wedding dress I chose, so she secretly MADE another dress without my knowledge and without even knowing my size and tried to persuade me to wear it THE DAY BEFORE MY WEDDING.

            Also she almost made me late to my own damn wedding because the simple make-up and hair I wanted wasn’t “good enough,” and so she decided an hour before the wedding to “try out some things” she saw in K-pop music videos. Needless to say, it did not look good and had to be washed off, and we ended up with only enough time (and just barely at that) for the simple styles I’d initially asked for.

            1. Seifer*

              I do not think that there are enough cry-laugh emojis for this. I plan on inviting my mom at the last minute so she doesn’t have time to plan these kinds of shenanigans. It’s going to be difficult because I want to get my dress made in Vietnam next year (I want a traditional ao dai and it’ll be so much cheaper to just go get it) but I might have like, three made and be like, they’re just for special occasions that have nothing to do with a wedding, what’s a wedding, who’s a wedding????

              1. Workerbee*

                I am both sympathizing with any pain involved and also hoping you will write a book about everything you are experiencing because I WOULD READ IT. Under a pen name so your grandmother can’t tally up your royalties and how best she can use them.

      2. ThursdaysGeek*

        Ooof, I’m sorry Seifer. The quality men are like your dad, who are not scared by an ambitious woman, so you’re only scaring off the ones you don’t want anyway. Too bad you can’t sass your mother by telling her that.

        1. Seifer*

          I have indeed sassed my mother like that! I gave her a weird look and was like, then why would I want to marry a guy like that anyway??? My dad just about busted a rib laughing. My mom didn’t speak to me for the rest of the day. I think she’s just worried that I’m too independent… according to her, Vietnamese guys don’t like that. My solution has been to not date Vietnamese guys. It is not an acceptable solution, in her eyes, ha!

          1. LunaLena*

            Ahaha, I told my mom the same thing! She was going on one day about how I don’t wear make-up and don’t dress prettily enough to attract “respectable guys” (the “Korean” part was assumed), and that my future husband was going to cheat on me if I didn’t learn to doll myself up. I told her that, if my future husband was like that, I would happily divorce him because I wouldn’t want to be with someone like that anyways! She was not amused.

        2. ..Kat..*

          My husband is delighted that I make decent money. It gave him the freedom to quit a toxic job without something else lined up without worrying about bills.

    7. The Man, Becky Lynch*

      As an outsider who has seen people crumbling under their parents pressure and lack of boundaries, all I can say is that you have to steady yourself to keep your parents at arms distance and not take their bait of emotional hostage taking that they have ingrained inside of them.

      I’m white AF and my parents are both from families with parents with “opinions”, I will put it that way. They all broke away and rebelled because we’re in a country where that’s absolutely acceptable, so it’s made so much easier in the long run! So I encourage you and others to look at this is a time to break the cycle and make choices for yourself. It’s hard, it’s harder than hard. It’s taken many families generations to break away from each other and their traditions of meddling or over-stepping. But it’s all about preserving your heart and your energy, so that you’re happy in life.

      It may not make you happy to distance yourself from your parents and you will really desire that closer relationship others have but sadly it’s the hand dealt. After the anxiety and dust settles, you’ll feel much better having “rebelled” and said “ef this system”. If you have kids, that’s your time to step back and make sure you don’t carry on how your parents treated you. This is where my experience does come in. My parents said “no, screw this opinionated, hateful and damaging stuff” they were raised with and taught me to question them, to ask them questions, to be curious and to seek my own bliss all while still taking darn good care of me and raising me to adore them. They’re my best friends and the best parents in the entire world, despite having cold, harsh parents who would say things like “But I’m your mother!” and so on.

      You’re doing everything right. You’re putting these boundaries in place and getting a therapist’s assistance! You will achieve your own greatness by taking these steps. Just know it’s a life long journey that you’re on and sadly you’re not in charge of your parents and they will not change unless they have the desire to do so.

    8. Tinker*

      Heh.

      One time my parents got ahold of a job listing for a mid-level civil engineering position that required a PE license, doing concrete structure design for a water treatment facility. I was looking for a job, and they wanted me to apply to it. I did not want to apply. They characterized this as my being incredibly picky and unreasonable — that I’m not even willing to apply and give them a chance, that I’ll never get anywhere in my career if I hold myself back like that, that I can’t be so picky when I don’t even have a job, you have to take what’s available dear, you’re so bright honey even if you haven’t done that specific thing before you can figure it out, all that sort of thing.

      I am a software engineer.

      Another time, I was thinking of applying to a company where one of my friends was working. It was a medium-sized startup doing about the same thing as my then-current employer, in a location that I rather liked. I told my mother about this, and she proceeded to speak with great authority about how that wasn’t a good idea because I had a good job working for a stable company but my friend didn’t sound like they had a good career at all; they were just doing the sort of routine work that companies would be looking to replace with their own IT departments.

      Shortly after that conversation I got laid off and went to work for a different but similar small startup, that our customer ultimately replaced… by acquiring us into it. My friend now works for Google.

    9. Not Alison*

      Just wondered if you ever asked your parents how much they make? How much is their mortgage, how much they paid for their house, how much they made at their first job, etc, etc, etc. And if they ask why you want to know, you can honestly respond that it would help you to frame in your own mind how much you should be making if they would share their own financial info with you. Perhaps that will get them to stop asking you.

      1. Asian American*

        Oh but they’d happily tell you, and expect you to reciprocate. It truly does come from a different cultural context where finances aren’t taboo topics (not to say the judgment/meddling is welcomed in any context)

  51. DouDou Paille*

    Anyone here successfully turn a side-gig “passion project” into a full-time career (besides Alison)? If so, I need some words of encouragement. My husband and I are thinking of finally taking the plunge, but I’m scared. (It’s a food-related business, if that helps.) Would love to hear your stories!

    1. Anonymous Educator*

      I haven’t personally, but I have a close friend who is a painter who did painting as a side gig for 15 years, and then was able to finally to quit the day job and go full-time with the “side gig.”

      1. I See Real People*

        My ex husband and I had a cake business for a few years, quite lucrative. However we lived in a highly-priced real estate area and couldn’t see paying for space, and we were outgrowing our home kitchen. In the end, we didn’t do it, but it was headed that way. If by word of mouth advertising, you outgrow your home kitchen, you should think seriously about going full time. Could one of you quit and do it full time, while the other helps part time while keeping their day job?

    2. Rainy days*

      Not me personally, but I have a friend who was laid off from her full-time job and it gave her the push she needed to become a full-time artist. She’s been quite successful at it, and I think the main reason is that she’s very realistic about creating art that sells well and most of her pieces are commissioned by businesses, rather than focusing on the art she’s most passionate about making. She works a lot, more than full time, but I think she’s happier than she was.

  52. No Coffee No Workee*

    Hi – could use some suggestions/feedback from everyone!

    I have been working as a freelancer at my company for almost 2 years. I’ve had limited exposure to different people within the organization, but still had managed to create a pretty good reputation for myself and my work. Last month, I was hired full-time (yay!). Since coming on full-time, I’ve had a few opportunities to be more visible to more senior leaders within my department — including my great-grand boss, whom I had my first interaction with when I was randomly asked to join a meeting.

    I received an invite from her office for a 1:1 meeting in July. They poised it as a “get to know you” session for newer employees.

    I’m curious as to what I should bring up/speak about. I’m not shy and can shoot the breeze – but I’d like to make the most of this meeting. I’d hate to turn this into a verbal resume regurgitation (this is my professional background, what I used to do, yada yada). I can easily chat with her about personal topics (traveling, hobbies we have in common, etc). but this doesn’t seem like the smartest way to spend the time. I thought about asking her about her background and possibly put some roots down for a mentor/mentee relationship.

    For context, I’m a designer on her corporate communications team/she heads communications for the entire enterprise. So, she’s not necessarily in my career trajectory (other than being a senior person in the corporate world).

    What are your thoughts on how I should maximize this meeting time?

    1. Debating It*

      Could you look into her experience to ask about that? I mean as a way to put down the mentor/mentee relationship. If you go in knowing she used to work at/doing x and you are interested in x then maybe that would be something to chat about. And would also mean if x comes up she might remember you for it.

      That being said I would only do this if x is relevant to your current role in some way. Wouldn’t want her to think you aren’t interested in your current role or have one foot out the door.

      And if the information is widely available. Like she joined us from x place somewhat recently not like 20 years ago stuff.

    2. Blue*

      If this is a standard new-employee thing, can you ask someone who’s been through it recently what to expect?

      My old grandboss really liked to this kind of thing annually, and his case, he asked a lot of big-picture questions about how our work was going, our career goals, desired professional development, etc. It was also a good opportunity to ask questions about some of his plans and goals for the office and upcoming projects, which was actually really useful. I was always prepared for that kind of discussion, but I heard from others that he’d just veer to personal chat if you didn’t have additional professional or work-related issues to raise.

  53. Tigger*

    Hi Guys! Happy Friday!

    A few months ago I posted about how my company’s CEO does believe in raises or a COL adjustment because “just because you managed not to get fired for a year doesn’t mean you deserve more money” and then a few weeks ago about our company buying another company and I was nervous about the restructuring because or location was being kept in the dark. Well I have an update- Bad news, the company is restructuring and people were starting to be laid off to eliminate redundancies. Good news- I GOT A RAISE!!!!!
    Thank you for all of you pointing out that no raises in 3 years is not normal. I guess the CEO was very impressed with the scripts y’all gave me which pointed this out in a nice way. Thanks for the encouragement!

  54. Jessen*

    I am happy to report that my work from home supervisor has been placated by the addition of a set of carpeted stairs next to my work station from which she can monitor my work.

    1. Jessen*

      Also, Alison, can we have another thread with pictures of our at-home “supervisors”? Please?

    2. ClosedWindow*

      OMG. Didn’t realize you meant a pet at first. Strange post to read when thinking you’re talking about a human. XD

      1. TooTiredToThink*

        I didn’t either!!!! I was like – what?!? But yeah.

        My at home supervisor has been insistent that she be involved in the training videos I’m creating. I’m like – no. You can’t. You just don’t know the material. She still insists on having her say. I finally had to manage-up and tell her she had to leave the room until I was done. She decided to take a nap.

        1. Anononon doo doo doo doo doo*

          My husband’s home supervisor likes to send his emails for him before he’s done. Her office is between the monitor and the keyboard.

      2. Jessen*

        Hee. It seems to fit though. She likes to sit there and just STARE at me like she disapproves. Probably mostly disapproves that I’m paying so much attention to the computer and not her.

        1. valentine*

          I’m paying so much attention to the computer and not her.
          Will the injustice never cease? Build in more breaks dedicated to her so she doesn’t have to put you on a PIP.

    4. Windchime*

      My work from home supervisor keeps wanting to sit in my lap while I’m working. He keeps trying to nuzzle me and the other day he actually licked my elbow. Very annoying and distracting. He also typed a long series of nnnnnnnnnnn’s the other day while trying to keep an eye on the mouse pointer.

  55. Miss Fisher*

    Not sure if this is more suited for today or tomorrows open thread. But I am at my wits end. It has to do with work I have had done at home and dealing with a company. I had my place painted about 2 months ago before moving in. From the start, the owner was nice but the experience not so much. They painted the place the wrong colors and had to redo them which messed up my other appointments like carpet cleaning before move in day. It took a few weeks after to get them payment because we kept missing each other. Now, the owner still has my keys. I forgot to ask for them when he stopped by for payment, so did later. I have called, emailed and texted. He says he will come by and never does. Beyond changing my locks, I don’t know what else to do. I haven’t written a review yet, but really don’t want to threaten with that. How can I get him to get those back to me so I have a spare set. I do have 1 additional set but I am not really comfortable with him just keeping my keys. Any suggestions?

    1. A Simple Narwhal*

      I think this would be better for tomorrow’s thread, but my two cents is to just get your locks changed. You’ll have peace of mind and the whole ordeal will be done with.

    2. Colette*

      Change the locks. It’s not that expensive, and it’s a good idea since you don’t know who has them. (He could easily have had them copied while he has them, although he probably hasn’t).

      1. I hate the offseason.*

        Also, some locks can be reset to work with a new set of keys. They do it so you can make one key work for all the doors. Might be worth checking it out. I think you’d need the installation manual though to know for certain.

        1. Colette*

          Yeah, that’s actually what I meant – call a locksmith and get them to rekey the locks that you already have.

          1. I hate the offseason.*

            Actually, some locks come w/ a tool that lets you do it yourself. That is what I was thinking about.

    3. SarahKay*

      Change the locks and write the review.
      Getting the colours wrong – well, mistakes happen although it’s pretty annoying when they happen to you.
      Not bringing the keys back on the day the job was completed, though – that’s just bad practice. This is your home that they have keys for; they’re not treating that fact with the respect it deserves.

    4. montescristo1985*

      If’ he’s had the keys more than an hours or so he could easily have copies. I would definitely have the locks changed…the cylinders themselves can just be rekeyed so you don’t have to buy all new locks, you just have to find someone with a lock kit. Small local hardware stores will sometimes do this for you. It only takes about 5 minutes to rekey a lock. It is totally worth the comfort of not wondering if someone has your keys.

      If this comes up again, it can be handy to keep one extra lock set on hand for remodel projects. You can switch out to the spare during the construction, and give that key out, then just switch it back when the work is done. That way people don’t have a key that regularly works.

    5. The Man, Becky Lynch*

      He’s shady AF to have your keys this long and not answering. Rekey and bad review ASAP.

  56. What's with Today, today?*

    A little vent.

    I’m the chair-elect on a business-oriented non-profit (these types of non-profits are common in almost every city of the nation, you’d be familiar. They always have internal politics). We have an excellent Executive Director who is prone to not delegating and working too many hours, fearing burn out, we have tried to get her to cut hours and delegate low-level tasks (updating social media) to interns or her four staff members to no avail. We literally wrote it in her goals. We’ve asked her not to take on any more organization initiatives because of overextension, she took on three in the last few months. She has a martyr complex, so we’d often get emails, that started out “It’s 8:30 on Friday night and I’m still here working on *insert non-sense that definitely didn’t need to be done by her or on a Friday night*…It’s exhausting. We aren’t infallible either, the Chairman this year is a micro-manager type, and that sucks, I get it. He’s made veiled threats the last few months of making a change, and she has made veiled threats that she might quit. But she has also made some pretty big screwups and cost us about $30k last year, and we let it go. Both the board and the ED have been in the wrong at times.

    She resigned last week siting home life balance and a great new opportunity (and it is great)! We all talked about how this is a positive for everyone, especially our community. Her new role will be great for everyone. We hate to lose her and are throwing her a great reception. She was totally on board with this being positive.

    But now, after we all talked about how this is positive, she keeps posting all these articles on Facebook about leaving toxic workplaces, and other passive-aggressive stuff, and it’s just pissing me off. We have to hire someone to fill her role! Her last day is a few weeks away. I know the chairman has been a headache, but the work-life balance issue was hers and hers alone. I kind of want her gone today in light of the postings.

    Vent over.

  57. MOAS*

    Question for people here–how do reference checks work at other places? Does HR do them or th hiring manager?

    we’re looking for candidates and we have 2 house recruiters (one is part time one is temp) doing the screenings. During the first interview discussion I brought up how I (as the prospective manager for the applicant) would want to talk to the references.

    Now the reason I mentioned it is b/c when I was a supervisor on another team, we had a person on our team who was awful in many ways. HR had done the reference check and told the managers that his references were great but HR then told me they weren’t too great. Another employee who did not work out, also apparently had good references. Honestly, I haven’t said this out loud to anyone but I don’t really trust HR at this point. But I don’t know if I was out of line or out of touch or what.

    1. Debating It*

      I think it depends on the place. I’ve worked at both.

      It shouldn’t really be an issue to ask to speak to the references if you are the hiring manager. You likely know more about the role, the needs of your team, personalities, skill deficits, etc. So speaking to the candidates references would give you a better more nuanced idea of how the individual might or might not work out.

      Though I have known places where the reference check is just an information verifying as oppose to actually getting feedback. So it would be relevant to know if you work at one of them.

      1. MOAS*

        I think that rc at my current place are closer to information verification. Although for years, we weren’t doing reference checks and we had a lot of bad employees here.

    2. Colette*

      You should do them as the hiring manager, because you want to be able to ask nuanced questions about the person – it’s not just “can this person get 3 people to say nice things about them”, it’s about whether their specific skills and temperament are a good fit for the job.

    3. Anonymous Educator*

      I’ve seen both happen, depending. But I think it makes a lot more sense for the hiring manager to do the reference checking, since the hiring manager would know better the kinds of questions to ask. HR would seem more appropriate for verifying employment history.

  58. What if the other shoe drops?!*

    Guys, I got a jerb!!!!! It was the kind of interview where my gut was saying yes yes yes before my brain could process and make a pros and cons list. The new job is so good – even though I’ve signed all the papers, I still can’t believe it and am starting to wonder if I hallucinated the whole thing.

    There was a career advisor at my current job who really helped me put together my documents, mock interviewed me and was just an awesome human. He is an older gentleman – what would be an appropriate THANK YOU gift?!

    1. Alexis Rose*

      Ehhhhh. Honestly I think any gift or overture would be a little weird, but I could be wrong and others might weigh in with a different opinion. You could send him an email or go see him in person to be like “hey, I got that job! I wanted to thank you so much for your help, I really felt like my application and interview were stronger because of it and I wanted to let you know the outcome!”

      Anything else will seem strange, I think, especially if his job is to be a career advisor and do this sort of thing for lots of people.

    2. stefanielaine*

      Gifts are SO tough because they’re so heavily dependent on an individual’s preferences. How about a really nice card or letter detailing how grateful you are for his support?

    3. Zephy*

      I think just sending him a thank-you note would be the most appropriate thing. If you want to make it ~special~, get a physical card and mail it to him – people like getting mail that isn’t bills. Keep it simple, though. “I wanted to thank you for all your help preparing for my interview. I start at Teapots R Us on Monday!”

    4. OtterB*

      I’d go for a handwritten note saying just what you said here. Possibly with celebratory baked goods.

    6. Alianora*

      When I got my first full-time job, I sent thank-you notes to my references and the people who had given me advice. I baked pies for two of them who had really gone above and beyond, but I only recommend this if you already like baking.

  59. Valancy Snaith*

    What’s the best way to deal with someone coming into your place of work with less experience and trying to “flex,” if you will?

    I’m a supervisor at my job and I’ve been there almost two years. My manager has been with us six months and still has some gaps, and HER boss just recently hired an assistant manager for us (one step between me and my fellow supervisors and the manager). The problem is that our assistant manager has been giving us all an exceptionally rough time–think castigating us for not doing things to her standards (when she’s been here about six weeks and isn’t really clear on what should and shouldn’t be done), talking about us behind our backs to the people we supervise and trashing us for not doing things “properly” (again, they’re fine–she’s just coming from a different background), and getting the entire store written up for something that she felt was inappropriate but is reasonably common practice in our line of work.

    The assistant manager keeps continually asking us “tell me what I’m doing wrong so I can fix it!” except when we do point out things she does wrong, she says “well, it should be done X way” or listens to us and then proceeds to do something totally different. I’ve stopped giving feedback because I don’t feel comfortable with her, not knowing if she’s going to go behind my back to someone else, and none of us feel comfortable telling her what her mistakes are at all at this point. What can we do to bring this to the attention of our manager and have her take us seriously? We’ve mentioned it to her before, but we are doing our best to soften the (very sharp) learning curve already inherent in this job. Is this something worth letting go on in the hopes she’ll ease up and become more comfortable? Or something worth addressing now to curtail before it gets worse?

  60. Master Bean Counter*

    Yay my promotion and raise are on hold. Boss and grandboss are having some sort of disagreement. Mean while I’m doing the all the work anyway. On the good side I’m taking the show on the road and working remotely 1/2 time for the next two weeks while I enjoy a nice road trip and family time.
    Maybe they will have it figured out by the time I get back.
    On the good side I figured out how useful microsoft teams can be while traveling. I should have very little need for the data eating VPN during my travels.

  61. debating it*

    Would you take a 4grand pay cut to go from being a temp at one company, to a permanent role at a different company? The role is the same just different companys. No non-competitors clauses to worry about as well. No chance of being permanent at the temp company. can afford the pay cut though it would mean tightening the budget.

    So would you? I mean permanent would be so nice. But so is having more money… So thoughts?

    1. Lucette Kensack*

      I definitely would. But that’s because I put a high value on security, and because my income is such that $4,000 is a reasonable cost to “purchase” more security in a permanent role. Where do you land on those questions?

    2. PersistentCat*

      It would depend on the cost of the benefits for me. Temp companies generally have expensive medical premiums (in my experience), limited PTO, and no 401k matching/profit sharing/bonuses. All together, these items could easily amount to 4k a year. $170 less per two weeks…to be able to take a week off work (paid) & cheaper medical premiums? I’m down.

    3. The Ginger Ginger*

      Do you get benefits at the new company? Do the company funded benefits account for what you’re paying out on your own in the other job? $4k sounds like a lot of money, but if that’s what you’re spending on health insurance and unpaid sick/vacation time at the moment, saving that money by taking on a permanent role would mean you’re not actually making less money. I’d math that out (if it applies to your situation) so you have an actual idea of how much you’d be losing (or potentially gaining!) by taking the permanent role.

    4. Overeducated*

      It really depends how temporary the temp contract is. I did take a $2k pay cut when I had 6 months left on my contract and it was the only permanent gig on the horizon, but I was also eligible for a promotion and 20% raise a year later, so it wasn’t a long term financial hit. Benefits are a consideration as well, often a permanent job has a lower employee premium, better PTO, etc.

      1. Debating It*

        This temp role is ongoing with no specific end date but they move office on 1st October and the increase in travel would be like an extra hour each way when traffic is good. And even if I did get offered to go to the new office with them, I wouldn’t want to.

        As far as like benefits go. I am on my spouse’s health insurance plan. So that isn’t a concern. I would get an extra week of PTO, plus paid national holidays (like Monday) and sick pay which I don’t currently get.

        Did you feel the 6 months was a pressure? Part of me is going they are offering less money than some of their competitors, so do I hold out hoping I get one with one of them? Or accept this one? Its a good company and has a great reputation, etc. Just pays lower. But its permanent and finding a new role in the next few months is not guaranteed.

        1. The Ginger Ginger*

          Is there any room for negotiating that offer? Maybe they’re willing to increase a bit, especially if they’re below market. If they aren’t offering a round number (like $42k instead of $40k, or $45k) maybe try to negotiate it up to the nearest one. I think there’s some articles out there about how people like those kind of numbers better so it’s easier to get a yes on that kind of thing (could be bunk, but worth a try).

          My main point is, if they’re open to negotiation, $4k is a totally reasonable amount of money to negotiate. So if you’re willing to give that a try, maybe you don’t need to take a pay cut.

        2. Overeducated*

          At my salary level, another week of PTO, paid national holidays, and sick days are worth more than $4000 compared to taking the same time unpaid (though I’ve never used all my sick days, I’ll have to blow them all for parental leave soon). I don’t know what your hourly rate or benefits package looks like but it’s worth running the numbers!

          I definitely felt pressure with the 6 months, but I’m in a competitive field without a lot of openings, and I wasn’t finding much to even apply for. I actually asked my supervisor and a couple others in the field for advice, and they all said “it’s not the ideal job, but if I were in your position I’d take it.” If I hadn’t, I’d probably have had to move or take a bigger pay cut. If you feel like you have pretty strong prospects with multiple competitors who have frequent job openings, you might not make the same choice as me.

    6. Schnoodle HR*

      If you can do with the cut, I’d do it. I’m assuming as a temp you don’t have great benefits, no 401k, pto, etc. You should at the new place if you’re not temp.

    7. ArtK*

      Like several people here are advising, make sure that your calculations include the value of any benefits. Many temps don’t get PTO, while permanent employees do. That could make a big difference right away. Funding for retirement (IRA, 401K, Roth, etc.) can be very valuable. So can education benefits? Does the new company have any tuition reimbursement or paid training?

      People often make the mistake of focusing only on salary and that’s really too narrow when comparing jobs.

    8. kittymommy*

      Are their benefits as well? Sick leave, PTO, insurance, retirement? I’ve been at places before that if you looked just at dollar to dollar, the temps earned more but permanent staff got paid when the office was closed on holiday, sick leave, (some) health insurance) and vacation time (admittedly not much but still). Other than the obvious that the job feels more secure, one should certainly consider these as well.

    9. Anono-me*

      Take a look at the benefits the company offers, maybe they’re better than what your spouse’s company offers.
      Also, you never know when things are going to change in an unexpected way. Maybe your spouse really really wants to start their own company. If you have benefits, that might let them follow that dream.

    10. PBJnocrusts*

      Depends if you can afford to take the pay cut. And what do you know about your new company. If the permanent job has benefits I’d weigh those against the $4k to help me decide.

  62. Alexis Rose*

    Today, I am in printer hell. Is fixing the printer my job? No. Am I the only person with the aptitude and patience to even attempt to tackle the printer’s temper tantrum? Yes.

    Send help.

    Actually, send a sledgehammer, that might help me put ALL of us (printer included) out of our misery sooner.

    1. Bee's Knees*

      I keep making an argument for a whack-a-mole machine, and my boss keeps shooting me down.

      1. Alexis Rose*

        You can come use my printer as a whack a mole machine, if you like. I can pop the ink cartridges out at random and you have to bop them back in.

    2. Anax*

      If you want to share the pain, at least, reddit.com/r/talesfromtechsupport seems to enjoy printer horror stories.

      1. Alexis Rose*

        I’m currently enjoying the oatmeal’s comic “why i believe printers were sent from hell to make us miserable”, so I’m going to check out tales from tech support for more venting solidarity!

  63. Blank*

    Exciting news! In the UK there’s a legal limit on renewing fixed-term contracts. After four years, as long as you’ve had one renewal/extension in that time, you’re supposed to automatically become a permanent employee.

    Since I’ve been with my employer for four years as of this month, I’ve formally requested confirmation from HR that my status has changed. Thankfully my union had a form letter I could adapt.

    Fingers crossed they don’t come back with a negative, but they’ve got three weeks to respond. (And I’ve got eight weeks until the end of this current extension.) There’s a lot of politics going on in my department at the moment, and I know my manager will appreciate not having to fight to continue my role every 6 months.

  64. Slimer*

    Office space drama. They are relocating permanent employees to other wings to accommodate summer interns. The worst part is that there are open offices in the original location, but apparently none of us are deserving of an office, so they prefer to play musical cubes. (Most of these offices could easily accommodate 3+ interns — this is so inefficient!) Ugh.

  65. Danger: GUMPTION AHEAD*

    We finally were allowed to create a permanant position to do what we currently have a temp doing (if you can still be called a temp after 2 years!). We are required to post the position and interview at least 5 people, but we know we want to keep the person who has been in the temp position for 2 years, so I am stuck having to waste 4 people’s time for no good reason. This sucks but there isn’t a way around it. At least we have a good reason to pick her over anyone else. Hard to top, “has been doing this specific niche role since role was created for 2 years” is hard to top.

    1. Lucky*

      Can you at least make those phone interviews, so the 4 fake candidates don’t have to take a half day off work, get dressed up, etc.?

      2. Danger: GUMPTION AHEAD*

        Unfortunately no. We are required to have face-to-face panel interviews unless the candidate is 100+ miles away. I work for a quasi-governmental organization whose HR rules borrow heavily from civil service. It sucks bad enough that the person in the role has to apply and interview for the job, but I am miserable for the people we are 99.99999999999999999999999% certain we won’t hire. Top it off, we have to ask a standard set of questions that take almost an hour. Maybe we should be complete weirdo jerks to the other 4 candidates so at least they feel like they dodged a bullet? I could totally take my shoes off and clip my toenails during the interviews and I bet my other panelists would be up to doing something equally offputting

        1. Wendy*

          My local university often uses the line “This position is expected to be filled by an internal candidate.” on some of their posting. I don’t bother applying for positions with that line because I know that they already know who they want and are just going through the motions to follow policy.

          You may not be able to get out of the interviews, but it’ll cut down on the number of applications you have to go through and it alerts the applicant that they are probably wasting their time if they do apply.

          1. Danger: GUMPTION AHEAD*

            I wish we could but we don’t even get to pick the wording of the job posting. HR does that but shoving the duties into a canned position description (a whole other issue I could rant about – they end up making no sense at all and we get the most random applicants). Our hiring process is one of the few things I dislike about my work

  66. RainbowsAndKitties*

    Does anyone have any favorite online resources for learning more about grant writing? I’ve kind of been thrown into it without a lot of experience/knowledge.

    Also, does anyone have any favorite online resources centered on learning more about Excel/Macros/VBA? I want to learn how to work smarter haha

    1. Cheesecake2.0*

      Grant writing is highly funder-dependent. NIH has a lot of workshops/online resources, for example. However, I think the best way to start learning is to read several previously-funded proposals and just start from there. Figure out what they have in common, how the language is set up.

      1. fposte*

        Agreed. Look on the websites of the agencies relevant to the areas you’d be working in; they’ll have a ton of information.

  67. Brownie*

    My current team is down from 7 people 5 years ago to three and a half today. The last round of hiring failed miserably as all 4 people selected for an in-person interview declined to come in. We only had 7 eligible people apply for two positions in the first place! Anyone have tips on where or how to advertise technical IT positions which absolutely require US citizenship and do not allow remote work at all?

    1. Blue Bunny*

      An onsite tech job in this market? You have your work cut out for you. I’m not surprised to hear that everyone turned it down.

      You may need to start reframing the job at a lower level, to snag people without enough work history to warrant being trusted with an immediate remote position.

      1. Brownie*

        There’s no possibility of remote work ever for anyone here as some of the systems need to be air-gapped from the internet. It’s a very specialized environment, but other companies seem to have no problem finding people for their identical environments (including the citizenship requirement) so there’s something that we’re missing. Heck, we can get contractors in without a problem, it’s the permanent hires which we just cannot seem to find, which implies there’s something we’re not doing right when it comes to job ads/advertising/recruiting.

        1. dealing with dragons*

          what are your benefits like? you’re competing with cool tech jobs in the area – so maybe scope out where the best places to work in tech are in your area. as a tech person, benefits I look for are good health insurance, 401k matching, pto/sick time, and then a fun environment in general. If you’re lacking in those areas you’ll probably have to bump up salary to make it worth it.

          1. Brownie*

            We have excellent benefits including health/vision/dental, 3 weeks of vacation separate from sick PTO, and 401k matching… but the salary is 5-10% lower than other places and, due to complicated gov funding reasons, can’t be raised. It’s not a tech heavy area at all so most permanent hires have to move here, but that means the company pays for relocation up to and including hotel stays until the hire can find permanent housing.

            Huh, now that I’m thinking about it, the last job post that went out only listed salary, not any of the other benefits. That’s a really good thread to pull with the folks who’re writing the job ads, why the benefits that make my friends highly jealous aren’t being included in the ad.

            1. WellRed*

              Eh, not in tech but 3 weeks vacay? Not that great. Add in the lower salary, the need to relocate, and the possibility other benefits are not as great as you think?

              1. Dotdotdot*

                Yeah 3 weeks is not much. Eight weeks might make up for the other downsides. Not 3.

      1. Brownie*

        Dice, Indeed, and a bunch of other sites. I know the first two we send job ads to because they’ve been specifically talked about during previous rounds of “we have no one applying WHY” discussions.

      2. alphabet soup*

        Also wanted to mention the TechLadies and Women Who Code Job Boards, in case you’re not already on there. Also, might be worth checking if nearby universities have any student-only job boards you can post to.

    3. Anono-me*

      If this is a place where most people are going to have to relocate to. I’m guessing it’s probably also a lower cost of living, good public schools, easy access to rural areas type of place. If this is the case, you may also want to include specfice about those as pluses in your posting details.

      Also if your workplace has won any awards for being a good place to work for women or other minorities; that should definitely be in your posting.

      As a government workplace, can you work with placement offices to recruit former military personnel looking for a second career? Often there are specific benefits for military people going to work for various government agencies that might make your position more attractive to people with prior military service.

      Good luck.

    4. AcademiaNut*

      If it pays 10% less than similar jobs in the area, and does not allow remote work, you’re going to have an uphill job finding good people.

      I’d first make sure that your benefits actually *are* significantly better than jobs in the area, and then list them in the job ad, including relocation assistance. And make sure to have really good sick leave and vacation, enough to cover when the employee is sick and when they need to stay home with sick kids.

      What’s the job market like for following spouses? If it’s not good, can you provide assistance/jobs for people moving families to the area?

      Other than that, you might need to hire at a lower level of experience and expertise, and be willing to train people, if experienced people aren’t willing to work for the wages offered.

  68. Teacher's Spouse*

    How common is it for (public) schools to post anticipated openings?

    SO is looking for a job in new city (where I currently am) and while there aren’t a lot of positions up for their field, they’ve had 2 interviews and 1 demo lesson (interview follow-up). After the demo lesson, they found out that the position is only anticipated because the current teacher might not leave (current teacher is also applying for new jobs outside of city). It’s been kind of disheartening. I know there’s no guarantee that they’d get that job, but the hiring committee never actually presented the opening as anticipated; it wasn’t until the current teacher (not part of the hiring committee) had an opportunity to speak with SO that the info was revealed.

    1. Minerva McGonagall*

      I am also a Teacher Spouse and unfortunately in my area (NE US) it seems fairly common. Sometimes it’s because they think someone may not come back from leave, sometimes it’s because the board hasn’t totally approved hiring yet, sometimes they think there will be an enrollment boom. It does suck though, and I hope they find a great fit soon!

      1. Luisa*

        I’m in the same area, and can confirm that this is extremely normal around here.

    2. HS Dept Chair*

      I tend to hire our best subs. If you can come into a class cold and maintain order, you’re going to get an interview from me. I would suggest telling your spouse to apply as a sub if they aren’t getting calls for open positions.

    3. just a random teacher*

      I’ve never heard of that being done here, but in my state public schools are unionized so the hiring process has a lot of formally-negotiated steps about when each job is advertised to internal versus external candidates and such. You will see job postings that are just a subject area and “pool”, for hard-to-fill things (such as speech paths) since they’ll collect those applications in advance of an actual opening, but for regular teaching jobs for a specific advertised position it’s going to be one that’s actually vacant. (Past a certain date, they do internal and external applicants starting the same day but may have to hire internal over external, so I do remember one time when I interviewed well but didn’t get the job due to an internal candidate, then got a call from the successful candidate’s school immediately after the rejection call, since they’d be interested in interviewing me for the new opening they now have and I came recommended by the other hiring committee…I’m not sure how many levels down the musical chairs shuffle that would have gone, because I ended up getting a different job in a different district before the interview with the second school in that chain.)

  69. Overeducated*

    A couple months ago I applied for two internal lateral transfers.

    One I got rejected for without an interview, which was shocking to me because on paper I’m very well qualified and while I don’t know the hiring manager directly, I have a lot of first degree connections who have said they put a good word in for me. I told myself when I applied that “If I don’t get it I hope it’s because Fergus applies and beats me.” Fergus is the only other internal candidate I know who has more directly relevant experience than me, and he is also a decent human who is competent and pleasant to work with. Well, I found out yesterday that Fergus got it. Good for him – he’s really the best man for the job, and this is literally the only outcome where I don’t have to feel bad about myself or doubt my own abilities.

    The other one I’m still waiting on. I had one interview and the hiring manager told me they would have to figure out this week whether that gave them enough information, or they were going to spend a couple weeks doing reference checks (…I know they contacted two of mine before inviting me to interview, so hmm) and then if THAT didn’t decide it schedule a second round of interviews. It’s a normal timeline but it’s driving me crazy because if this doesn’t work out (and it may not, this is a stretch job in terms of responsibilities if not pay grade) I’m ready to buy a house and need to move before the school year starts this fall. Would you wait a month and possibly wind up with no job AND no house, or would you just move forward on both and see what sticks first?

  70. PBJnocrusts*

    Hi all
    How long do you job search in your field before you give up ? I’m a Teapot constructor with a Teapot degree, 8 years working in the Teapot industry. I’ve been getting interviews but no offers and this will be the 7th month of no job. I have been applying for non Teapot jobs also and have got some temp work. My parent has advised me to go into llama wrangling as it’s a growing industry but I have zero llama interest. What’s your advice dear readers?

    1. Alexis Rose*

      Step 1: get a job, any job, that pays the bills.

      Step 2: make time to apply for jobs in your field.

      I worked for three years in odd contracts and in jobs that I was way overqualified for until I FINALLY got lucky and landed a position in my field.

      Also, there is a certain amount of managing expectations that needs to happen. Maybe getting a job in your field won’t happen. But if you set yourself up to be able to pay your bills, maybe you’ll fall into a job that’s totally tolerable and you can live with or MAYBE you’ll end up down a totally different career path that you never thought of and love and can carve out a niche for yourself there. Be proactive about making things happen, but sometimes you gotta just see what happens when you change your expectations.

        1. Alexis Rose*

          I’m glad, you just gotta stick with it! Luck is just when preparation meets opportunity, after all. You’ve got all the preparation down pat, just have to wait for the opportunity.

      2. Fortitude Jones*

        Agree with both these steps. I did step #1 almost a decade ago after graduating from college into the recession where my field was seriously decimated (journalism). I ended up falling into law, then insurance claims, and guess what? I liked both fields more than my original one. I’m out of both now and am in the software industry, but I’m using my degree in my particular role (proposal writing), and I’m being paid handsomely for my skill set. In fact, I’m earning almost double of what the average salary is in my original field – if I had become a journalist, I would be struggling right now.

    2. User6238*

      If you have 8 years of experience in the same industry it’s very strange you are not getting interviews.

      Is it about the region? The changing labor market for teapot specialists? Your skills which are not up-to-date? Your badly prepared application documents? You coming across too unfriendly/ friendly/ ambitious/ not ambitious/ active/ passive/…?

      I would first try to figure out what the reason is and only then decide whether I want to keep applying in the teapot industry or not. Because if you don’t and switch 1) it doesn’t need to be better after you switch 2) it can be something easily fixable and there’s no need to switch.

      I changed industries and I’m super happy about that, but I knew my former professional was a way to nowhere.

    3. Close Bracket*

      I searched for a year and a half and submitted 160 applications. I had a loose deadline of 2 yrs/200 applications before giving up and doing something else.

      Be careful with those side gigs. I had a side gig to pay the bills that I thought was a good use of my skills (science editing when I have a graduate degree in science), and I got grilled on a couple phone interviews on why I would do such a thing. I don’t have good advice for handling that kind of questioning. I mean, you have to pay bills while you look; I would that would be obvious to anyone who enjoys eating regular meals. Apparently what you do to accomplish that becomes fodder for judgement.

      1. PBJnocrusts*

        Same ! I had an interview recently and the interviewer was like ‘you’ve been doing casual Teapot designing?” In the tone of voice like What the heck are you doing that for??

  71. Gumptioned!*

    I had a candidate show up in person for a phone interview this week. That was…special. Since it was on my calendar, I went ahead, but the candidate gumptioned their way through the rest of the interview, too. I really liked them personally, but our team already has enough gumption. We don’t need any more.

    1. Not All*

      They would have been sent to their car to do the interview from their cell phone in my agencies! Federal hiring rules…EVERYONE needs to get the same type of interview (obviously, reasonable accommodations are made for disabilities).

    2. Drew*

      If someone did that to me, it would be a pretty short interview. “Hello, Candidate. As I’m sure you realize, attention to detail is very important in this position. Given that, why did you come in person for a phone interview?”

    3. Csmithy*

      Oh man, I totally did this once, when I had little interview experience and they didn’t clarify it was a phone screen. It was so embarrassing! :(

  72. Cheesecake2.0*

    How would you all deal with a coworker that talks to themselves a lot? I work in an office that gets fairly noisy mid-day through afternoon and have a job where I need to concentrate a lot. My boss let me move into an office further away from the chaos at the front desk, and also let me have an earlier schedule so I have more quiet time in the morning. One of my fellow coworkers, whose office is across the hall from mine, also wanted an earlier schedule too. Now that we have anywhere from 1-2 hours with just us in the office in the mornings, I’ve realized, he talks to himself. All morning. About everything. And it’s completely audible to me and he doesn’t close his door or anything. One of the other women in the office told me he’s been talked to about it before as others have complained but he still does it. I don’t know how much I can say “hey please stop reading every email out loud to yourself, it’s very distracting”. I have headphones I can wear but my ears hurt after 1-2 hours of wearing them.

    1. Alexis Rose*

      Can you close your door?

      You could always put up a little whiteboard or sign that lets people know if you’re available (On a call until 2:30; Looming deadline, please only interrupt for urgent matters)

      Depending on office culture, it could seem really standoffish or weird to always have your door closed, but I think you could normalize it if you needed to. “Oh, I’ve started closing my door because I’ve found I’m one of those people who gets distracted by even small normal noises! I’ve got a little sign system set up so people know when its OK to come talk to me. I know its a little weird, but I’ve really been finding it helpful!”

      1. Cheesecake2.0*

        Having my door totally closed would be pretty weird for my office unfortunately, people leave their doors open even when they’re gone. Maybe I could do it just for the first hour or so though. I do have a white board coming in the mail to hang on it so maybe that will help, I could put a “please come in!” message on it.

        1. Alexis Rose*

          What about a white noise machine that quietly plays ocean sounds or something to help drown out outside noises but won’t be audible to other people? Could you have your door mostly closed?

          I guess my main point is that I don’t think you can address this with your coworker directly other than maybe a “Hey, not sure if you knew…”- type conversation.

          Anything else I think would be passive-aggressive. If you were like “Sorry Greg, did you say something to me?!” every time it happened, I think that wouldn’t be appropriate.

          1. RainbowsAndKitties*

            Agreed on the possibility of addressing it. I would definitely come at it from a “Hey! Do you realize that you read things aloud quite often?”

            Play dumb, but since they’ve been spoken to about this before, I don’t think they should be surprised to hear about it again. And wrap into that conversation: “It’s pretty distracting to me when we’re both here in the morning. Would you mind closing your door for that time period?”

            I would say if that doesn’t go well, then close your own door instead. But hopefully they will be receptive since this apparently has been an issue brought up to them before

            1. Close Bracket*

              I might go so far as to close their down rather than my own, but only after repeatedly addressing them directly. I’d take the attitude of, “I’ll just close this for you since you need to be reading aloud right now.”

  73. PersistentCat*

    Hey everyone; I know this question comes up a lot, but I’m looking for remote work/work from home opportunities. I have a rudimentary background in GIS (QGIS & ESRI from school), and a strong skill set with Excel data manipulation/report generating. I also have a lot of QMS design/authoring experience in FDA regulated environments (Nutra (including labels), OTC Pharma, and Med Devices). Is this a skill set that even lends itself to remote opportunities? If so, where would I even look or what search terms should I be inputting into Google? The results I’ve found (in what may have been less than skilled googling) appear to be scams.

  74. ginkgo*

    What perks can I ask for to make me happier at work?

    I’m in a boring, dead-end job that’s starting to affect my mental health. I’m job hunting, but in the meantime I feel like I owe it to myself to at least try to make it work. It’s a small business (less than 5 employees) and I already have a lot of the obvious stuff – plenty of vacation, a flexible schedule. The business owner is a nice person who wants to keep his employees happy – there’s just no room for advancement and the job isn’t a good fit. There are a lot of things about the office that drive me crazy, but that I don’t really think I can fix (NOISE, ugh). Other things I would really like (like a freaking 401k) seem to be off the table because of the limitations of small businesses and the fact that I’d probably be the only one using them. All I can think of to ask for is another work from home day, but maybe you all can help me get creative?

    1. L.S. Cooper*

      I’m a very food motivated person (I would be an exceptionally easy dog to train, were I to be a dog), so I’m always very pleased by free food. Could the owner pay for ordering lunches every once in a while?

    3. Blue Bunny*

      Paid training, conferences, or certifications? Flex time (working 7-3 or 10-6, for example)?

    4. JXB*

      A friend of mine that owns a web development company talked about the various perks to be competitive.

      They already had some of flex time, collaboration areas, casual workplace, some food. But rather than lots/really cool food, ping pong tables, etc. – his crew wanted maid service (at home) once a month. He was all on-board. Spent something like $100 a month (for one limited visit) on his high performers. Was easy to work up a contract with a company. Easy to outsource.

      1. irene adler*

        Some companies provide a concierge service. They have a person who can run your errands during the day- get the car washed or serviced, drop off/pick up the shirts at the cleaners, light grocery shopping, pick up lunch, etc. Just provide the list of what you want.

        Another nice perk one office has is a monthly massage service. They bring in someone to do chair massages for each person in the office. Something like 30 min for each. This does require some space to carry out.

    5. Fuzzy Lady*

      Continuing ed? Having your company pay for you to take a class or go to a conference?

    6. Not Me*

      Paid volunteer time, parking or transportation benefits, local health club membership (or partial payment), taking on extra work (taking something you’re interested in off the bosses plate that you’d find challenging), continuing education, uuummmmmm I’ll keep thinking….

      1. ginkgo*

        Ooh, we might have a winner! Paid volunteer time was actually something the company owner had offered to me a while back and I neglected to follow up on, but that sounds awesome. Thanks for jogging my memory!

    8. Ranon*

      Maybe a Simple IRA would work if a 401k does not? I’ve worked for some small companies (think 6 people) and they’ve offered a Simple- from what I understand the admin costs are a bunch lower

      1. Anono-me*

        Also sometimes small business associations offer 401k or other retirement options for their members to offer to their staff, ( and sometimes for the business owner/s).

        You might want to check with the neighboring small business that offers insurance and other investment vehicles to see if they have something that you could discuss with your boss.

    9. Gumby*

      One of my former workplaces was big on supporting local businesses. They paid for monthly car washes at a place down the street. (Hand washes, staff seemed to be immigrants and possibly all related.) That was ideal because I hate washing my car and extra-hate the automated machine things. They also had weekly lunches catered – all from local restaurants. Except for when it was pizza because of lack of options – pretty sure that was from a national chain.

  75. Mrs. Carmen Sandiego JD*

    I referred a friend for a job they’d be a superb fit at, and it involves a decently hefty referral bonus. Problem? My company states that whoever put the person’s name in the referral bank 1st, gets the bonus. I tried putting friend’s name in, but they’re already in there(?) and could’ve been there from 5 years ago or 2 years ago.

    Tl;dr: I put in the legwork of getting his CV in to my bosses and might lose out on a referral bonus (4 figures) because of a first-to-enter into referral database that might/might not be antiquated. Also someone I don’t know might find themselves 4 figures richer and not know how that happened….

    Advice/similar experiences?

    1. CheeryO*

      Is there someone in HR that you could ask? Maybe just say that you were surprised to see their name already in the database and you want to confirm that whoever referred them is still working for the company? If they are, I don’t think you really have any standing to push back, unfortunately.

    2. Bex*

      Definitely check with HR. Is there a chance that it was a prior applicant with the same name and not actually your friend?

  76. User6238*

    How do you know whether your expectations are realistic or not?

    Im a first-time manager and find it really difficult to say whether my expectations are unreasonably high or my colleagues lack skills.

    I‘m in analytics. When I get my team member‘s work it‘s wrong in 90 percent of cases. They ignore facts which for me are common knowledge. Basically if the result of their analysis was that in the last 6 months we got 50 percent less revenue, they would probably don’t see it as a mistake, just copy it into a report.

    Im slowly starting to feel overwhelmed since it happens so frequently. I know that if I don’t notice the mistakes, we will send this rubbishy to the ceo.

    We can’t do peer review regularly since we are understaffed. And yes, the fast work pace expected from us may be a Part of the problem but I find the number of mistakes simply too much even for a quite fast-paced environment.

    1. lawschoolmorelikeblawschool*

      I don’t know the content of your work, but getting 90% of your work wrong sounds pretty bad, and expecting more doesn’t sound unreasonable. Maybe you need to figure out your expectations and then meet with your team and communicate those expectations. You also need to give people the tools to meet those expectations, and it sounds like those must be lacking if the work is that poor.

      1. User6238*

        I think it’s about 1) working accurately 2) doing basic checks after the analysis (asking ourselves: “Does this result seem probable?”) and 3) having enough common sense to answer the question about the result being probable or not realistically.

        Basically it’s about accuracy and common sense.

        But how can I teach someone accuracy and common sense?

        1. fposte*

          With checklists and guidelines. I don’t think you’re going to teach somebody which answers to interrogate and how, but you can teach them how to check their own data–presumably this result was wrong because of a checkable error along the way. I think *you* found the error because to you the answer was obviously contradicting knowledge you had, but that doesn’t mean that’s how your staff will find the errors.

          1. User6238*

            The thing is my current position is an area which is new to me. I’m also new to the company. But all of my colleagues have been working here much longer than me.

            Still, the errors they commit are simply extremely basic. See the example with the revenue. We are a huge, international company. How realistic it is that we lost 50% of our revenue last year?

            I really don’t know how to formulate the checks without sounding offensive. The things are really very basic.

            1. fposte*

              You’re still overfocusing on how *you* caught that. What was the mistake they made that led to that figure? How are they taught to check for that mistake?

              I get you’re new, but if this is somebody you’re managing, this is your job. Checklists don’t need to be something you create out of whole cloth–have you searched online for suggestions, or talked to other managers? If you think this is one person who’s genuinely and disproportionately unsuited, do you think you can get somebody better for the money you’d be offering? Do you want to transition them out and hire somebody else? Can you quantify their error rate and come up with a reasonable bar to meet on errors in that position?

              1. User6238*

                “You’re still overfocusing on how *you* caught that. What was the mistake they made that led to that figure? How are they taught to check for that mistake?”

                We work with programming languages. You can read the script 10 times to check it, but after reading it 3 times, the probability you will notice an error decreases. But if the result is completely improbable you need to be able to notice that.

                They should always read their scripts and check for mistakes. They also should compare the results of their analyses with what they know from other sources and if the results contradict their previous knowledge it should ring an alarm in their heads.

                It’s like they prepare an analysis, send it out and completely forget what they wrote. So if they do the same analysis tomorrow and they get completely different results, they won’t notice.

                I can’t quantify the errors.

                1. User6238*

                  Yes, it’s a common problem in my team. I don’t want to say everybody is like that. I don’t see the problem when I talk to my bosses and peers, but it’s much more difficult with the colleagues lower in the hierarchy.

                2. fposte*

                  Okay, this is an area I don’t know about managing, then. But if it’s everybody on the team, this is an entrenched thing that may not be able to be resolved through managing. What do you want to do then?

                3. RandomU...*

                  A couple of things that can help (not always, but I’ve had some success).

                  When you notice an error, because it sounds like you’ll still be checking for them, you need to send it back to them and ask leading questions.
                  “How did you arrive at this revenue number?” “How does that compare to prior years?”
                  are examples. To start with be fairly targeted with your questions. Knowing they are going to have explain their results, how they arrived at them, and (most importantly) how they validated them you will be able to teach them how to think about their analysis and the steps they need to take.

                  This will help you figure out which ones are being lazy, need to learn, or just plain suck at analysis.

                  The ones that are lazy should learn that they will have to do all this, or you’ll make them do it after the fact. The ones who just need more experience and to learn will integrate this into their work. The ones who suck, will never get it.

                  I know exactly what you are talking about and it’s why I always hired the ‘analyst mentality’ vs. a specific skill set/programming language. I can teach the right analyst a coding language, I can’t teach someone how to be a good analyst.

                5. Mr. Shark*

                  Excellent advice, RandomU.
                  As others have suggested, checklists help (compare $X this quarter to $Y last quarter, does this make sense?). Anything that establishes a step-by-step process so that mistakes can be reduced or eliminated help. This also helps sort out those who just made an error, who are routinely skipping a step, or those who are clueless and can’t follow basic directions as part of their analysis.

    2. fposte*

      Agreeing with LB. I’m also not clear from what you said–is this consistent across staff or is one person obviously weak? If it’s all of the staff, it’s a process or hiring problem. What processes are in place for self-review–do you have checklists, guidelines, etc.? If there aren’t any, that’s a process weakness that can be addressed.

    3. dealing with dragons*

      I think it depends on their autonomy? You can make a report say whatever you want it to say, so at their level are they only supposed to do “x versus y over time period z” or is it something more nebulous like “how many times did we end up doing x process due to y result”. I’m in a similar position to your workers in that I’m not a financial person, but I do work with financial data so I do need to at least be able to rudimentarily look at data and figure out if we really are about to post a billion dollar loss lol

      if it’s one person, you may need to implement a quasi-pip (for lack of a better term) – let them know it needs to improve. if it’s a team-wide thing it might be training time and you need to go to your managers and let them know it’s an issue.

      do you let your team member’s know when and what mistakes are being made? could also be a part of the problem if they’re never made aware.

    4. Sleepytime Tea*

      I too work in analytics, and while I’m not a manager, I have had co-workers who are like this and have been in a position as a semi-formal team lead to have to catch errors and correct there work.

      You need to have a specific talk about the types of errors you’re finding that you need them to be checking for before it goes to you. Talk about how if something doesn’t trend as expected, it requires that they research and validate before the report gets pushed up the chain. Things like that. If they continue to submit things with glaring errors, then they need a performance plan. A significant amount of their work containing errors is not sustainable.

      That said, things that go to a certain level (director, C-suite, whatever is appropriate) NEED to have a peer review. Period. Always. Everyone makes mistakes, even rock stars, and you really can’t skimp out on that. I have worked on fast paced and slammed teams, and you simply have to make sure the data is correct, and peer review is necessary. Business decisions are being made on your data.

      A self review is also always something that should be done, and doesn’t require a huge time investment nor does it require multiple people’s time. This is an actual document that gets filled out when you run these recurring reports. It is basically a checklist of things you should be verifying before submitting a report. “Data trends consistently” – check the box yes or no. Basics plus anything that’s specific to that report. It makes everyone slow down for a second and double check their work. And you keep a copy of this doc each time the report goes out. Especially for auditing purposes, this is useful (internal or external). You MUST make time for review. And if that means talking to your higher-ups and explaining that turn around for requests might slow down by a couple of hours because you will be doing peer reviews for quality assurance, then that’s what needs to be done. Sure, there will be true urgent situations where there’s not time, but most “urgent” situations aren’t really that, and if you make a straightforward part of your process that certain things must have a peer review and everyone is responsible for taking turns on that, then it benefits everyone. You will have less re-work to do, and that will save you time in the long run.

      Having a coworker like you’ve described who made these types of errors and didn’t seem to take a few minutes to double check their work was always incredibly demoralizing, because everyone treats them as a missing stair and all of a sudden the rest of us who are reliable and accurate are getting the big projects that can’t be “risked” to be given to this other person. Don’t do that. You will wear out your top performers when you could be helping the other person improve, and if they don’t improve, finding someone who can truly contribute to your team.

  77. Jan Levinson*

    This is more of a vent, but I’m sure some of you can relate.

    I left at 3:00 PM for a doctor’s appointment on Wednesday. My coworker Bob (a salesperson) and I were in the midst of waiting on some time sensitive information from a vendor, that I knew was likely to come over after I left the office Wednesday afternoon. I needed to do part A with the information, before Bob could do his part B with the information. So, I emailed Bob and told him that I was leaving at 3:00 PM, and told him explicitly that Mary would do part A in my absence (I had ok’ed this with her), so he should get with her if the information comes over while I’m gone, and he can start on Part B straight away (Part A is a very simple step, and would take Mary only a few minutes to complete). I also reminded him that Mary must do Part A before he can do Part B (he already knows this since we do this process fairly often).

    Well, the information came over while I was gone, and Bob went ahead and did Part B without contacting Mary to do Part A first. Because Part A wasn’t completed, Bob ended up sending incorrect information to his customer. I noticed as soon as I got into the office yesterday morning the error that had occurred because Part A hadn’t been done. I emailed Bob informing him of the error, to which he responded-

    “K. Would have been nice to know yesterday afternoon. Too late to make good with customer now. Thx anyway.”

    It made me SO angry that Bob had the gall to send a rude email acting like I made a mistake, when HE was the one who hadn’t done his due diligence. He KNEW I was going to be gone, and didn’t have Mary do the one simple step I told him needed to be done before he could do his part.

    Sigh. I’m glad it’s Friday!

    1. Myrin*

      Ooooh, this is a pet-peeve situation of mine. Time to answer with “Attached, please find the email I originally send you yesterday before leaving were I explicitly talk about getting Mary to do Part A in my absence you complete ignoramus!”.

      1. Jan Levinson*

        That’s pretty much how I responded (obviously including ‘ignoramus’ ;))

        Not shockingly, he didn’t reply!

    2. The Ginger Ginger*

      That’s the time to attach your initial instruction email and say “Per the attached email”

      BECAUSE PER THE ATTACHED EMAIL, BOB

      1. Jan Levinson*

        Honestly though, Bob!

        Is it bad that I get some level of satisfaction from sending an email that starts with “per my last email…” :)

        1. The Ginger Ginger*

          YESSSSS, because it is (or can be) business speak for a whole host of satisfying things, including but not limited to
          – I told you so
          – You moron
          – Maybe do your dang job, mkay?
          – No, this is actually your fault and now everyone on this chain knows it

          2. InsufficentlySubordinate*

            Can you read? is another alternate translation of that business speak.

            On the same note:
            Just circling back on my request is translatable to I will never let you forget this request until you complete it or the heat death of the universe, whichever comes first.

          3. Mr. Shark*

            Yes, GG!! All of these. Per attached e-mail is very much code for something less professional and more pointed to the lack of intelligence of the recipient of said attached e-mail!

      2. I need a vacation*

        Also, next time this happens, cc your boss. Not necessarily Bob’s boss, but yours. If this is gonna look like your mistake and be blamed on you come performance eval time, CYA CYA CYA.

        1. Jan Levinson*

          Luckily, my boss is well aware of the way Bob can be, and backs me up. I gave her a heads up about the situation!

    4. silverpie*

      Happened to me once from an external reviewer. “As explicitly stated on page 4 of our report…”

    5. Diatryma*

      I would probably go Full Miss Manners and ask very politely (and possibly cced) what he would like me to do in the future, given that I had already done X, Y, Z, and received confirmation that it would work.

  78. softcastle mccormick*

    Does anyone have any good tips for proposing a new position/promotion/accompanying raise to your boss?

    I’ve been at my entry level position for about two years now, and our old team leader and supervisor both left last year. There have been significant gaps in coverage and areas of opportunity for management, and I’d like to step up to the plate, as I’m thinking about my career path, future with the company, and the responsibilities I think it would be most advantageous to take on. I’ve composed a proposal with the following things to present:
    -The proposed role, areas of responsibility, and daily tasks, and future project ideas
    -The benefits this role brings to the business, both monetarily and team-wide
    -The skills I bring that could help me succeed in the position
    -Proposed workflow shift and timeline

    Is there anything else you would suggest? Any good questions, matters of “tone,” good advice? This is my first big job and I really want to grow with this company and help lead our team to success.

    1. Interplanet Janet*

      Maybe think through what objections you might encounter and address them preemptively? Along the same lines, roadblocks and how you’d propose addressing them.

      1. HappySnoopy*

        OT: Omg, I have schoolhouse rock now in my head frim your usernane “she’s a galaxy girl…”

        Er, on topic. I agree. Perhaps even a this is how we’ve been dealing with x since charlie and lucy left. My proposal would be to do y because more efficient/prevents errors etc.

    2. Zoobilee Zoo*

      I did this recently, too, and have been stuck in limbo waiting for weeks and weeks. Whenever I ask my boss he has no updates. So here’s what I would do with a time machine: find out from a mentor who has promoted people in your company what the process is, typically, ahead of time; give your supervisor significant heads up that you want to propose a change in your role, and plan to share a proposal. Confirm the process with your supervisor ahead of time, and after you make your pitch. I also recommend asking your boss when and how they’d like you to check on the status of your proposal, so you’re not left in the dark like I have been. Because otherwise, it feels like you keep poking them for updates on something that is super important to you but not #1 priority for them.

    3. Just Elle*

      I think you’ve got it nailed down pretty good. I’ve done this before. I presented it as “I have a lot of passion for __. I’ve spent a lot of time learning about how we do things here, and I really feel I could help the business in these areas. Here is the cost savings I expect from being allowed to complete these improvement initiatives, etc.”

      Just keep it very positive and focused on how it could help you and the business. Not “Heres why I’m bored now.” Try to convey your excitement/passion. Be ready with a few specific quick-win ideas and also be ready to paint the long term picture.

      The person who I was presenting to asked me to come back with a job description for the ideal future job. In retrospect, I wish I’d though to do that myself and bring it to the first meeting.

    4. quirkypants*

      As a manager, in addition to everything you have here, my advice is to focus on times you’ve already gone above and beyond or times you’ve demonstrated the skills needed.

  79. Interplanet Janet*

    A company I’m interested in working for has two positions available. One is Llama Grooming Team Member (which would be a lateral move for me), the other is Llama Grooming Team Lead (which would officially be a step up, but I am unofficially a team lead now). I’d be interested in, and probably qualified for, either.

    Which should I apply for? Both? Apply for one and say in my cover letter that I’d be interested in either? Something else? What would you do?

    1. RainbowsAndKitties*

      Personally, I believe you should apply for the highest level job for which you are qualified. If you are looking at the Llama Grooming Team Lead position and mentally checking off every qualification as: “Done that. Do that. Have that” then why not just apply for that position? If you find that you are lacking in qualifications for that position however, maybe you’d want to apply for the lower position instead. Again, personally, I don’t think it would be too weird to apply for them both. But if I were a hiring manager and saw that you applied for both, I would probably (wrongly) assume that you’re overqualified for the lower position and wouldn’t be happy with it.

    2. My cat is my alarm clock*

      I’d go for both to keep your options open. In this situation I applied only for the higher level role and ended up kicking myself for not throwing my hat in for the other.

  80. Myrin*

    In light of this morning’s letter about parents involving themselves in their childen’s jobs, a situation a coworker told me about months ago resurfaced in my mind and I’m wondering what others think.

    I work part-time as a shelf stocker at a drugstore. The atmosphere is generally very friendly and I all of my coworkers obviously like and respect each other. The exception is the assistant manager, Danielle. In the year and a half I’ve been there, I’ve gotten to know her as a borderline rude know-it-all with a condescending manner who is quite literally on the lookout for things she can nag others about. I find her insufferable both as a person and a boss but I’m generally pretty chill and managed to not let it get to me even though I’ve done my fair share of venting to my family; also, I’m not in her department so I interact very little with her on the two days a week I’m in (additionally, I seem to have passed some sort of trial; she’s been markedly friendler to me personally during the last few months).

    One of my coworkers, Steph, is the head of one department and has been working with Danielle for eleven years. She started at the store as a trainee when she was fifteen (Danielle was twenty back then). Steph and I got to talking about the general atmosphere in the store late last year and she told me about Danielle bullying her on a daily basis when she’d first started out (Danielle has been the assistant manager for something over two years now, so she was just a peer to Steph back then). Steph, despite coming across as a bit of a kick-ass now, was apparently very shy and horribly intimidated when she was a teenager. She said she came home crying every day, got sick in the middle of the night because she dreaded going in to work, and started shaking and hyperventilating right there in the store because she was so afraid of Danielle.

    She then said that it got so bad that her mum wanted to step in and talk to our boss (who was already the boss back then) but Steph begged her not to because she feared retaliation by Danielle (and also because she felt like she had to do this alone, but mostly because of fear).

    I’ve since been wondering how I would behave as a parent in this situation; I feel like Steph’s only being fifteen really muddies the water a bit, but I’m not sure. How do you guys feel about what’s inappropriate and/or wise in a case like this?

    1. That Girl From Quinn's House*

      A minor child who is on working papers is only there at the grace of their parents’ permission, which the parents can revoke at any time, and the parent is also entitled to inspect the workplace to ensure the employer is respecting the child labor laws. So in that situation, a parent should get involved.

    2. Psyche*

      I don’t think it muddies the water. A parent has every right to step in if their child (a minor) is having problems at their part time job. It is a completely different scenario.

      1. Myrin*

        It wasn’t a part-time job. I probably should’ve added that we’re in Germany, not the US, with a very different educational/job system. I said “trainee” because there literally isn’t an English word which conveys everything the German expression means, but this was Steph’s first year in her training to become a retail saleswoman and as such, it was a full-time job. Not sure if that substantially changes the advice but I should’ve mentioned it regardless.

        1. Grace*

          In that sense, I feel like it would be much the same as if a teenager was having difficulty with their teacher. At least in the UK, apprenticeships (which I think can’t be started until you’re 16, but otherwise are the same in that it’s a full-time job training to become qualified) falls under the remit of ‘full-time education’ in the same way as school does.

          I do think that a parent in that situation has the standing to go “You’re supposed to be training/educating my child, and this is not it.”

    3. fposte*

      I have mixed feelings on this; I don’t actually agree that just because she’s a minor it’s automatically okay for the parents to speak directly to the boss. I think there’s more room for parental intervention, but in a situation like that you still want the employee herself to talk to the boss, just with her parents’ support. “Support” might extend, in some circumstances, to asking if a parent can be present for a conversation, but absent something straight out illegal I don’t think the parent should reach out to the employer separately.

      1. CheeryO*

        Yes. I had zero idea how to handle life when I started working food service at 16. Instead of coaching me, my parents made a few calls for me over a couple years (stuff like trying to get my hours reduced or pushing back when I was scheduled to work on a day that I had requested off). It didn’t end well – it wasn’t the most professional environment to begin with, so it just gave people an excuse to pick on me. I was also the reason why a sign got posted in the break room saying something to the effect of, “If you’re old enough to work, you’re old enough to advocate for yourself. I DON’T WANT TO TALK TO YOUR PARENTS. -boss”

  81. Cakezilla*

    Does anybody have any ideas for how to get work done in a very interruption-heavy setting?

    I work in a very busy social services building where clients and staff frequently come by with questions, quick things they need, etc. I’m dealing with an “avalanche of pebbles” because people will come by with requests that are all super reasonable by themselves (printing a resume, seeing if a colleague is in, a client stopped by and just wants to talk for a few minutes etc.), and I don’t feel like I can say no to a task that’s so small. The problem is when I get them all day and can’t sustain focus on anything else because of it.

    I do a lot of direct service, and our culture is to be accommodating and flexible (which I love), so I want to be available for people! But I also have long term projects that I’m responsible for, they have to get done, they require concentration, and I just can’t get them done in 10-20 minute bursts between errands and surprise visits.

    1. Cheesecake2.0*

      Can you schedule blocks here and there of uninterrupted time? Or get an intern/admin to help with basic items like that?

      1. valentine*

        Yes, blocks.

        Vitamin C commented once that “interruptions are the job”. If you can find that post, it may help you reframe it.

    2. Interplanet Janet*

      I have heard this referred to as having “time confetti”. So hard. You can see that there is technically time in your day, but it’s so hard to get anything substantial done because it’s so split up.

      I would try blocking out time. When are you naturally most productive? First thing? Just before lunch? Late in the day? Calendar a daily event for 1-2 hours at that time. Close your office door, set you IM to “unavailable”, turn off email notifications, basically go to ground during that time. Possibly even send an email explaining what you’ll be doing so people know.

      Then I would also block out time when you are extra available. Like setting office hours, it doesn’t mean people can’t access you at other times, but it’s a big neon sign that says “Please Save Your Interaction For This Time”. And keep a folder (virtual and/or physical) for tasks to do during that time. Some things might not be able to wait, but it’s not off-putting to say, “if you put a sticky note on it and drop it in that box, there, I will get to it between 2 and 3 today”. Again, explaining the time confetti and that you’re trying to increase efficiency by consolidating small tasks instead of sprinkling them throughout your day shouldn’t bother anybody.

    3. Alianora*

      Are there conference rooms you can use? I don’t get interrupted a ton in my job, but if I need more space or I need a quiet work environment I’ll sometimes book a conference room (usually the same day, so that I’m not taking it away from a meeting that needs it) for myself, and block the time off on my own calendar. If anyone comes by my desk or looks at my calendar, they can see that I’m working on something.

  82. Data Analyst*

    How do you ask to reduce your hours and how much detail to go into? I do analytics at a medium sized non-profit. At night, I’ve been taking fiction writing classes and have rediscovered my passion for this (something I sort of buried because I decided as a young adult that I wanted to study statistics because financial security was the most important thing to me at the time). My teachers have encouraged me to apply to low-res MFA programs and I think I want to do it. I would pretty much have to work less to fit it in (I also have two young kids). I’m planning to ask to reduce my hours this summer to start getting ready to apply this fall, and then hopefully get in to something that starts in spring and continue working reduced hours while studying. But I’m struggling about how to ask exactly, and how much to disclose about why I want to do it. I’ve gotten varying advice on it. What do you guys think? Have any of you done something similar?

    1. fposte*

      How much are you planning to reduce your hours by, and has a time-reduction been something that your employer generally supports? In some places they really can’t do that–if they need 40 hours of data analysis they won’t have room for somebody who only wants to do 30. Are you exempt or non-exempt?

      1. Data Analyst*

        Thanks for the reply. I am exempt, and I was hoping to reduce from 40 hrs to 30 (and I want to do it as 3 10-hr days but I understand that might be a deal breaker). I have known of maybe 5 people who have done this here. Three were older people who have worked here a long time and are sort of stepping back on the way to retirement. But two were more employees more on my level, including one who had the same manager I have now (he no longer works here but we are facebook friends so I was thinking of asking him how he asked for that and how hard it was to get them to agree).

        1. fposte*

          That sounds promising, actually, and I’d definitely talk to somebody who’d done it. You haven’t mentioned pay, but I’m presuming you’d be asking to be paid 75% of your current salary? Keep an eye on the proposed new exemption threshold in case that’s relevant–it’s likely that you’d have to earn at least $35,308 to be exempt starting in January 2020, and that’s not pro-rated for part-time.

          1. Data Analyst*

            That’s a good point to bring up. Luckily I will still be above that threshold with the reduction in pay, but I had not known that that was a thing, so thank you.

    2. Psyche*

      If you are currently full time, do you get benefits? Some companies will agree to shift employees to part time but they lose their benefits so you should definitely take that into account when deciding if it is feasible for you. Since you know someone else who did shift to 30 hours I think it is a very good idea to ask how the company handled that.

      1. Data Analyst*

        Thank you. Yes, I get benefits and I keep all of them as long as I’m more than 20 hours, but the health insurance gets a lot more expensive. My plan is to switch to my husband’s insurance next time that’s open (and no, a spouse reducing their hours at the same job does not count as a qualifying event to enroll early, only job loss/job change).

  83. Jilly*

    I didn’t get an interview for a job that I applied for and I’m a bit bummed. Well, it’s slightly more complicated than that. I work on an institutional support contract for a federal agency. They have received a window of direct hire approval which allows them to skip some of the requirements that usually go with federal hiring. It was literally my boss collecting CVs of those of us interested and handing them to our client. It would literally be the same job I’m doing now, just that I would be a direct federal employee instead of employed by my company. My office mate got an interview request. Though we do the same job, there is a difference – she is classified as a Mid and I’m a Senior. So I wouldn’t accept anything below the upper steps of a particular grade and she could slot in 1-2 grades lower. I know the client likes me and my skill set (there has been effusive levels of praise for projects that I have contributed to). So I think it may be the budget. Which, it is what it is and our institutional support contract has quite a bit of life left in it so I’m not worried about it drying up. But it would have been nice to go in as a fed for about 3 years so that I could get status and then move back to the private sector once I hit the grade level ceiling (the next grade up is reserved for particular positions in that office, unlike pretty much every other analogous office at other federal agencies, and I just don’t want that job). And really, they may change their mind and reach out to me eventually. . .

  84. BRC Burrito*

    My supervisor asked me to be a presenter at a conference. It was a general presentation on our work and we had 50 organizations attend. Inevitably, some of those organizations will email or call and ask questions. Should I be responsible for fielding all the emails that come from attendees just because I was the presenter?

    There are four analysts on the team, including me, all were in the audience when I presented. We all do the same exact work with some special projects here and there, but otherwise we evenly split the work. An email came in the day after the presentation and it was just a general question, but the emailer mentioned they were at the conference, so my coworker put it in my folder. I put it back in the general folder that we all take turns manning and that day wasn’t my day to man the folder. Am I in the wrong? I feel like I should say something to this coworker like, the questions that roll in aren’t specific to me, can you help handle these? Ah, I don’t know!

    1. fposte*

      What does your manager think? Depending on the kind of conference and the likely responses I could see it either way, but I think the protocol needs to be explicit between you and your co-workers–rather than just silently putting the email back, I would, assuming I had the manager’s blessing, say “Since the followup questions apply to all our work, I’ve checked with Jane and she says to keep them in the general folder.”

      1. BRC Burrito*

        Manager has been on vacation and wasn’t at the conference, but they’ll be back next week. Oh shoot, I should have asked before they left.

        I don’t want to leave this person hanging (it’s been less than 24 hours at this point), but I also don’t want to “cave”. I am so swamped, I could really use teammates help.

          1. BRC Burrito*

            Manager has no access to email while they’re out.

            I am sending everyone an email and CCing manager, saying that there may be an increase in emails in our general folder and I would appreciate their assistance in answering follow up questions. Thanks for the inspiration :)

  85. oona*

    So last week I posted here about a male coworker who was making creepy advances on me. I’m sure this will surprise exactly 0% of you, but I am not the only one he creeped on, and what I got was mild compared to some of my coworkers.

    My company handled it in exactly the way I hoped. We all told our manager what was happening in the morning and the guy was fired before noon. Upper management dropped everything to get this done.

    I probably shouldn’t be but I am still shocked that this kind of thing is still happening in 2019 and by what this guy said to us in writing, on the company’s email and IM. I cannot understand how a person with a child to support could either not realize or care that what he was doing would cost him his job. It was really scary to come forward even though I knew my company would not tolerate this and I had plenty of proof and back-up from the other women who were harassed. I still feel kinda sick and lightheaded, almost like I haven’t eaten anything for a few days. A few people here pointed out that what was happening was not OK and I was well within my rights to go to my manager, and that helped a lot!

    1. Jan Levinson*

      Wow! I’m so sorry you and your coworkers were harassed in that way.

      SO glad your company took action and did the right thing, though!

    2. T3k*

      I’m so glad the company took appropriate action here :) The sad part is, he either thought what he was doing wasn’t a firable offense or wrongly believed the company wouldn’t care (or worse, try to protect him). But yea, he’s gone now!

    3. A Simple Narwhal*

      Sorry you had to go through that, but I’m so glad your company acted as they should!

    4. Policy Wonk*

      Thank you for stepping up to report this. This was really brave of you – far too many people don’t report – and likely saved you and your colleagues a lot of misery going forward.

    5. irene adler*

      Good for you! Glad they took swift action.
      I hope management will also provide some counseling for all who dealt with the creep to make sure everyone is okay. Such things can be very stressful – even when the bad situation is remedied swiftly.

    6. dealing with dragons*

      we had someone sending inappropriate pictures around and try to blame it on all the drugs they did as a teenager? they went to another company and got fired for the same thing, and are trying to come back here.

      whyyyyyyyyy

    7. Zephy*

      > We all told our manager what was happening in the morning and the guy was fired before noon.

      What an excellent twist! I was all ready to read that you were told to “just ignore him, that’s how he is,” my eyes were primed and ready to roll. This is great news! Enjoy your shiny new Grossboy-Free(tm) workplace.

      1. AcademiaNut*

        And *that* is why this still happens in 2019. I’d bet cold hard cash that this isn’t the first workplace or education facility he’s done this in, but that in the past he either got away with it completely, or got only a minor slap on the wrist.

      2. PBJnocrusts*

        Absolutely ‘just ignore him that’s what’s he’s like’ I’ve had that told to me!

  86. AshAndFire*

    I’ve been really frustrated with my job, and I have been steadily applying for internal jobs for over a year. I consistently get interviews, and I’m consistently the second choice for Reasons. I’m the senior most person on my my current team, I do the most challenging work, I am very good at it, and I did not get a raise of any sort this past year because I am also at the top of the pay grade, and it is looking very likely I won’t get a raise again next year for the exact same reason. If I am still in this job.

    I spotted a job on the boards that looks like it would be a good match to my skills and experience. The problem: it in a division that is in the process of being sold to another company. This is public knowledge (as in, press release to the national media, not just an internal heads up). I am hesitant to apply because no one knows how the sale is going to affect the pay and benefits and seniority of the employees in that division. But there are very limited opportunities internally at the pay/seniority level I am applying at and the hiring managers don’t just want unicorns, they want fuchsia unicorns with LED glitter, so I need to start looking outside of my current employer anyway (once I figure out how to stop self selecting out of jobs I’d probably be good at but can’t figure out how to describe my employment experience in the terms they are looking for, but that is a whole different issue). Do I apply? Wait?

    1. ArtK*

      I’d apply, and if interviewing, ask pointed questions about the future of the position.

  87. ArtK*

    I got a new job!

    I accepted a verbal offer last night for something that I know will be far better than what I’m doing now. The compensation is good and I’ll be working for an old boss who I really like. He had been helping me with my search and after the last big rejection, said “why don’t you come work for me?” Because of some logistics at my current job and some planned travel, I won’t be starting the new position until the end of July.

    The only downsides are walking away from a product that I’ve dedicated 10 years of my career to, and giving up (mostly) on a hoped-for career change.

    1. The Man, Becky Lynch*

      Congratulations! It’s great that you’re finally able to leave your current position. What a huge weight off your shoulders despite the downsides this will be awesome for you.

  88. Zuckerman's Famous Pig*

    How long should I wait to followup? I was contacted 3 days ago about setting up a face-to-face interview. I responded 2 days ago with my availability for next week then since then nothing. When should I follow up? I understand coordinating schedules takes time and I don’t want to come off as desperate (although I kind of am).

    1. LaDeeDa*

      No sooner than a week from offering your availability, but Monday was a holiday in the US– so I’d an extra 2 days. And if they indicated that there were multiple people and multiple high level people who needed to be coordinated, I’d wait an additional week. *fingers crossed*

  89. Please do not reply all*

    My boss is having trouble keeping up with her e-mails. She told me the other day she has 2400, and many of them are unread. She is on a lot of e-mail distribution lists where “reply all” messages tend to clutter up her inbox. I would like to help her sort through our filter out some of these messages and have two questions:

    1) Do any IT gurus out there know if there is a way to automatically archive or filter out “reply all” messages?

    2) Would it be overstepping to ask her if I can get access to her inbox to help sort and prioritize her e-mails? FWIW I’m her EA. We haven’t been together long so I don’t want to seem like I am trying to overstep or cross a boundary with her.

    Thanks in advance!

    1. A Simple Narwhal*

      If you have outlook, I recommend you set her email to sort into conversations. This will collapse back and forths/reply alls into a collapsible thread, which makes things neater and more organized.

      I also recommend you set up email folders. This will allow you to sort things better and let your boss choose what to focus on at a time. How to sort this will depend on what makes sense for her, but it could be something like this:
      General Office (direct all emails to the general office list she’s on to this folder)
      Lllama Wrangling Client (direct all emails from the Llama Wrangling Client here)
      LLama Wrangling News (direct emails from llama wrangling industry sites she follows)
      Alpaca Wrangling Client
      Alpaca Wrangling News
      etc

      Back when I had tons of emails from tons of clients coming in, I found that automatically directing emails into folders really helped me keep on top of things.

      1. LGC*

        This is what I was about to suggest. My job is full of reply all maniacs, so sorting my emails out is a lifesaver.

        Also, since PDNRA’s boss is on a lot of mailing lists, setting rules so those get organized automatically is also key. Although I’m a bit particular and feel slightly annoyed when people send routine requests that break my Outlook rules (obviously I don’t say anything but…man, make it easier for me and be consistent in your requests).

    2. The Ginger Ginger*

      it might be easier to just have a folder (or folders) for the specific distribution lists she’s on. Especially the ones that are less relevant to the day to day work she does. You can set up a rule really easily for emails going to the specific distro list.

      My company typically does the distro list then attaches the direct emails of the people really needed to address the email. If your company does something similar you can even create an exception to the rule for emails where your boss’s email is directly included vs she’s just getting it because of the distro.

      As her EA, I don’t really think that’s overstepping. You could just float the idea to her. “Hey, would it help if I spent some time cleaning up your inbox and prioritizing things for you so you don’t feel so buried under your inbox?” She can say no, of course, but I don’t think that’s an unreasonable offer to make.

    3. Lucette Kensack*

      It is definitely not overstepping to suggest that you triage her inbox. That’s standard practice (as you know) for a lot of EAs — managing the inbox so the executive is only dealing with the messages that require their input.

    4. Susan K*

      It would not be overstepping at all to ask for access to her inbox. It’s a very common thing for admins and assistants to manage their boss’ inboxes. It probably goes without saying, but if you do get access, you have to be very discreet about any confidential information you may see in her inbox.

      I have a lot of rules set up for my inbox to help me sort out e-mails, but I don’t like to have to check a bunch of different folders to see incoming e-mails, so I set up my rules to copy (not move) incoming e-mails into the appropriate folders, so I see them in my inbox and then I can just delete them from my inbox once I’ve seen them (which is easier than manually moving each message to the appropriate folder after I see it).

      I don’t think there’s any way to filter out “reply all” messages, but I think most e-mail clients allow you to set up a rule to filter messages where you are CC’ed (which is usually the case for “reply all” unless you sent the message that is being replied to). You can make it so that only e-mails with your boss in the “To” field show up in her inbox an the rest get automatically sent to folders.

      1. Mr. Shark*

        I think you can set it up so that the e-mails with your boss in the “To” field is color-coded, so she would automatically know if the e-mail was directly to her and she would likely need to take action on it. That would be a simple step before you get to the more complex step of sorting everything.

  90. stefanielaine*

    After 13 years working in health care administration/at health plans, I have realized that it’s not the right career for me. My first job (6 years) was incredible and I had a great boss and great colleagues who really cared about improving health care, but I got laid off and since then, it’s been 4 consecutive toxic cultures in a row that I could barely tolerate for a year or two before moving on to something that turned out not to be better, and I am just so discouraged. I’m realizing that it’s pretty likely that my first experience was an outlier and I’m never going to have that again. I’m generally smart, good at using data to investigate and solve problems, good at preparing slides and public speaking, but I don’t know how to go about considering a career change and I’ve spent my whole career in health care so I don’t even really know what my other options could be. I’ve considered a career coach but it seems like those are kind of scammy/not helpful. What do you all recommend?

    1. Even Steven*

      I don’t know if it would check all the boxes, but you might consider a Benefits Administrator role in an HR department. The BA at my company does a lot of problem solving & presenting. A health division in a company that is not primarily about health (I am in financial services, for example) could open a window to a dramatically different company culture that might be just the ticket. Good luck! You are due for some good fortune!

    2. sheep jump death match*

      Look for working at an HMO? Like Kaiser Permanente is a health insurance plan that does lots of wellness/preventative stuff because that is in their financial interest. I think it’s a slightly different atmosphere because all the services are “in-house” (sorry, can’t think of the actual right term).

  91. L.S. Cooper*

    Does anyone else have tons of questions they want to ask on the open thread, but they only come up with them on Mondays, so by Friday, they’ve all been forgotten? Just me? Argh.
    And a bit of a vent, nothing original: WHY does every “entry level” position call for 2-3 years of experience? Where do they think I’m going to get that experience? If you want 2-3 years of experience, I think that falls into the “junior developer” category.

    1. Myrin*

      Definitely not just you. Every week, I plan to write down the topics that come to mind during the week so that I can then post about them in the open threads and then I just… don’t.

      1. L.S. Cooper*

        The worst are the ones that come up while I’m getting ready in the morning, because I try not to do anything at all on my phone while getting ready (not always successful, but a pre-meds ADHD brain cannot escape Facebook…), so I don’t want to open it to take notes, but then any thoughts I had are gone forever by the time I get to work.

        1. Zephy*

          Could you get a small notebook and pen and keep that on your bedside table/in the bathroom?

    2. T3k*

      Yep, I try to write up what I want to ask ahead of time when that happens but still forget sometimes.

      And yeah, job descriptions for entry level jobs can be annoying like that. My most amusing one though was for a job that required some 10 years experience but the job only offered to pay $10/hr.

    3. The Man, Becky Lynch*

      It’s because most places don’t want to train you in basics, so they’re doing their best by requesting a couple of years experience at least. It’s not fair, I agree but it’s the sick truth of it. I’ve been there when I read a resume and think “This person could do the job but there’s so much effort to put into making it really work…” so we lean towards a few years of experience even for basic jobs that aren’t just seriously shop entry-level kind of work.

      This is why internships do come in handy for some folks if you had that experience, it counts.

      You also get there by being promoted within companies, so you can start as an admin in A Department, then you learn say Junior Marketing skills or Junior Accounting skills or Junior Designer skills. Then you can use that to move on to your next role as sliding right into those roles instead of starting at the absolute bottom.

      I think it’s also because “entry level” is not a great term and not used strictly enough. Since really, we cannot just say “we need you to start in the basement for awhile then you’ll get up to the entry level.”

  92. Alex*

    Is it ever worth bringing up to your boss that your coworker is taking too much vacation?

    We work in an environment where there is very specific vacation allowances–no one is allowed to negotiate for more, etc. It is also true that we have extremely poor tracking systems for vacation, such that if your manager isn’t really on top of it, we’re basically on the honor system. This leads to some people actually taking more vacation than they are entitled to.

    My coworker, Albert, seems to be one of these. It is obvious to me because I am his “back up” person when he is out of the office, meaning I have to complete all his work when he is out. I just counted the days he has submitted for vacation this summer, and they equal a larger amount than our yearly allowance. And they aren’t even the first vacation days for him for the year. We are allowed to roll over a certain amount from year to year, but he always takes a lot of vacation every year, so I know he can’t have had that much rolled over from last year. I suspect he is just taking as much as he wants, and our manager isn’t bothering to check his balance. From my calculation, he is about 20% over his allowance, and that doesn’t even count the days he always takes around the holidays.

    I know this seems like none of my business, but he always plans his vacations way in advance and takes all the best vacation days. And since I am his back up, I can’t ever take time at the same time as he does. It’s very frustrating, not to mention the fact that no one else takes so much vacation, so I end up doing a huge amount of extra work that no one else has to do.

    1. fposte*

      The problem you raise, then, isn’t “I think Albert is taking too much vacation” but “It’s hard for me to get my work done with Albert out so much, and I’m frustrated that his absences prevent me from taking vacation. Can you help me with this?” Your problems could happen even if Albert was merely taking his allowed vacations, and this is asking your manager to help solve the work problems rather than just rein in Albert.

      1. lawschoolmorelikeblawschool*

        Excellent way to frame it when you raise it with your manager/whomever.

      2. A Simple Narwhal*

        This 100%.

        I totally get the frustration with him cheating the system, but absolutely focus on how it’s impacting your ability to get your work done you when you bring it up with your boss, exactly as fposte said.

      3. AdAgencyChick*

        This. “I’ve had to cover for Albert X+5 times this year already,” where X is your allotment. “I’m not able to get my own work done and cover Albert as many times as he’s been out this year.” etc.

    2. LaDeeDa*

      It is your business because you have to cover for him and don’t get any prime vacation dates. I would mention it to your boss, and I would also book a prime vacation time now! Don’t let him keep beating you out.

    3. Alex*

      I suppose the problem is that I don’t really have *difficulty* getting my own work down when I have to do his, it is just irritating that I’m asked to do it so much and no one is keeping track of the fact that he just takes as much vacation as he wants without regard to his vacation balance. I certainly don’t enjoy doing his work all the time, but it isn’t like I’m scrambling.

      I’m going to try to get the week that I really like to take vacation next year. I have to remember 9 months in advance!

      1. Mr. Shark*

        Right. But by bringing up that you are spending a lot of time covering for him, you are really letting your boss know that he’s out excessively, without saying specifically “hey Boss, Albert is taking way too much vacation.”.

      2. pharmacat*

        Definitely raise the timing of vacation days also. Albert cannot always have first choice, regardless of how far in advance he plans. It relegates you to a second tier position. This is absolutely not acceptable.

  93. Not as stressed as last week*

    I’ve been posting about the problems with our charity llama grooming facility for a while. In a nutshell, new Manager brought in to make things ‘more professional’, very different background and approach, staff leaving, talk of bullying by the manager – meanwhile, no llamas are being washed, let alone better standards of llama grooming
    Well, this week he was let go, and although it means that llama grooming is now even more short handed, a huge stress has been taken off my team. I’ve felt like the only one pointing up the dirty llamas, struggling to maintain standards and timescales, and now it seems like Senior Mamagement were listening and took action.
    Sure, we’re re-working our project plans for the year, but people now understand why I’ve been pushing back on timescales and telling them that llamas arrive dirty.
    We just need to recruit another llama groomer now…

  94. LDN Layabout*

    Engagement between two groups that need to be working together but have issues…how do?

    Basically I’ve done this before, on a much smaller level, where it was team to team. Now it’s team to a large number of teams.

    It’s a data and ops situation, and there’s fault on both sides, but also I did get a complaint today which I answered politely but where what I really wanted to do is tell them to read the guidance, print it out and stick it up their arse.

    (Really it would all be solved if IT in the org worked but ahahahaha pipe dream)

    Advice?

    1. Karen from Finance's Work is Full of Bees*

      – Figure out what each team needs
      – Figure out what each team needs from each other
      – Figure out why that is not happening
      – Is there anything in this process that can be done differently where it will be easier for both parts to collaborate?
      – Is there a compromise that can be reached where both parties can be happy?

      Do not think of where there was fault. Whenever people go there, redirect focus: how do we stop it from happening again?

      1. LDN Layabout*

        Thank you, you’ve solidified the process for me (and confirmed for me that I was right, it can’t be me handling it even though I really really want to XD).

        The last step is so important and I’ve been trying really hard to stick to it, outside of my immediate manager.

        1. Karen from Finance*

          I have to deal with a lot of people who like to point fingers at each other, so I feel you. It’s exhausting work, but it can be done! Good luck.

    2. LQ*

      Commiseration. SO MUCH COMMISERATION!

      Oh for an IT shop that worked. I just had to have a conversation with someone who was like, well now that someone left this work is impossible (it’s not, it’s really basic) so lets just give up and go back to doing nothing but making minor screen changes forever.

      When it’s a few people it’s easier to make the working together personal, but when it’s larger groups you have to make it more structural and procedural I think.

      1. Anax*

        Ditto on the commiseration. I got to be the “security liaison” between dev and ops for a while, and even with only ten people on each side, it was… exasperating.

      2. LDN Layabout*

        Our servers are just SO BAD. And the people we are meant to be making products for are 99% remote and in some cases remote means REMOTE and they really should have to have a level of steady internet connection to be able to take the job, but no…

        Also Oracle sucks it sucks so muuuuuuuuuuuuuch.

  95. new at this*

    Hi everyone! I have a check in next week for someone who is not meeting a very specific, measurable annual goal in our department. The offense isn’t something that would immediately threaten their job here, but has the potential to completely fail their EOY evaluation. However, the employee is so far behind that making the target is incredibly unlikely and would involve them almost doubling their current output from now until the end of the year. That’s how far behind they are.

    I became their manager 3 weeks ago, so I didn’t have the opportunity to address this before it was too late. I think their prior manager should have brought this up when there was still time to make the target, but this employee should have definitely flagged it on their own as well. This is information that the employee has to input into our system. Managers can view these inputs, but it is always expected that the employee manages their own target or brings it up if they are in danger of failing. It’s a bad system, but it is the system that everyone who works here is subject to.

    I’m struggling with how to approach this given that there isn’t an immediate solution. My employee will need to meet their target going forward, but at this point in the year they may fail the component of the evaluation either way. They are a newer employee (about 1 year), so they were not subject to this target during evaluations last year. I sympathize with the employee because I don’t think anyone ever explicitly told them how important it was to make this goal. But this is also the situation that every new hire deals with, and this is the only employee who didn’t seem to take it seriously.

    This is the first issue I’m dealing with as a supervisor. Does anyone have any tips on how I can best approach this with my report? I can’t just say, “You aren’t meeting your goal, you need to start meeting your goal, but honestly it doesn’t matter either way because you’ve pretty much already failed.”

    Thanks!

    1. I edit everything*

      Oof. It sounds like you need to be very frank and factual. “This is the EOY goal. This is how your productivity must change to meet it. These are the consequences if you don’t.” And then have a conversation about whether the job is really a good fit, what might happen if they can show that they can work at the necessary level before the EOY evaluation, and what help they might need to make that happen–if they have legit problems with the work due to lack of training, or if they’ve been mucking about because they don’t think the goal is enforced, for example.

      Good luck! It’s kindest to be clear, and not try to soften the facts.

      1. new at this*

        Agh, good point. I tend to be very wordy so I’m definitely practicing ahead of time to be matter of fact with this! I have to just keep repeating to myself that it’s kinder to be clear and direct. Hopefully these conversations will get easier with time.

    2. Overeducated*

      What is the consequence of failure? Is it very cut and dry, like they will lose their job or go on a formal PIP? Or do you have discretion as manager to decide how to approach it? I think that matters because you want to figure out the best possible outcome for your department and that should shape how you bring it up.

    3. LQ*

      Failing to meet the goal doesn’t mean firing so be explict about that.
      Will failing to meet it this year go away or will it continue to hang over their head next year? You should definately work with them to bring up their measurement so that they can get as close as possible, they may not be able to double output, but they should know what the pace is so you can work with them to figure out if they’ll ever be able to meet it.

      Say I have to make 1000 widgets a year. I haven’t learned how and I’m not fast enough so I’m only going to make 300 this year at this pace. If you work with me and my pace improves so that with a full year at the pace I’ll be able to make it then I can at least know what I’m going to be expected to accomplish in the future. But if I try and I only ever can manage to get a pace of 800 a year then I’ll know I’ll never be successful at this job and can find something else.

      1. new at this*

        It would go away next year, the annual goal resets at the end of every year.

        This is very helpful framing! I’ve only been thinking in terms of this year, which is why I’ve been struggling to find actionable advice for the employee. Having a long term approach makes it feel a lot less hopeless. Thank you!

        1. LQ*

          Glad it was helpful, if it resets then making sure that they know what the pace is that will make it so they can be on track Jan 2 next year and stay there is definitely a doable goal. They can get up to that pace now and it’ll be so much easier.

          1. valentine*

            I thought it meant they were fired. Since it doesn’t, you want to make clear that it’s important to get as close to the goal as possible, to put them in the best position for next year. Anyone looking back will go, “Wow, they really turned things around and have remained on an upswing.”

        2. ..Kat..*

          Let’s say, that at the start of the year, if this employee made X widgets per week, they would have reached their goal of Y widgets per year. Would an acceptable goal for employee going forward could be making X widgets per week? With him being closely supervised?

          Also, if you cannot fire him, what can you do when employees are not working well?

          And, has given any explanation for being this far behind goal? Did he not get enough training? Too much time surfing the net at work? Or is he just not good at this job?

          Can you ask his former manager why employee is so far behind? Did former manager address this with employee?

  96. Rebecca*

    I’m still thinking about the letter the other day, follow up on the worker who was so far behind on her work, and the boss is basically a Star Ship Captain, waving her arms and saying “Make it So” without allowing overtime, extra help, AND, on top of it, asking this person to train someone! And fill out a spreadsheet, that takes even more time, and if you don’t get it done, you get fired? I’m so angry on that staff’s behalf. I suspect the manager gets a bonus if overtime costs are kept at a minimum or not at all, and is hoping the staff works overtime without recording it. Just a gut feeling, otherwise, there’s no reason for boss not to go to grand boss and just lay it out. And realistically, would the boss fire everyone? If that was the case, no work would get done. And how would she explain that situation to grand boss?

    I really hope we get an update to this, and the OP can find a reasonable employer, and her husband recovers. Keeping all the things crossed for that to happen!!

    2. $!$!*

      My husbands boss is constantly screaming at everyone whenever they take vacation, before and after the days scheduled off. it was revealed after an employee left (and wasn’t replaced) that boss man makes a bonus $30k annually for keeping labor costs low in the shop.

    3. Mazzy*

      I know! And the worst for me was that they said to prioritize newer stuff first. So they do Accounting and Financial stuff, and we’re just going to let the old stuff fester so that when they actually need those #s, everything will need to get done in a mad rush. Not to mention that new work is easier to do because it is new and you know the context and understand the exceptions going on at that time. Try revisiting months old work try to make sense of it.

      1. Mimmy*

        And the worst for me was that they said to prioritize newer stuff first.

        That caught my eye too.

    4. Mr. Shark*

      Yes, it’s awful. Some of us commented, and I still think, that this unfortunately may be beyond the boss’s control. Maybe the boss has already gone to the grand boss, and the GB has said the same thing to the boss–just get it done. I’ve been in the situation before.

    5. Gumby*

      I kept thinking about Tim Gunn saying “Make it work” but at least he’s charming about it!

      And the consequences are leaving the competition rather than losing your job and not being able to pay rent.

  97. Mary Garth*

    We’re going through a restructuring at work, and as part of it, I was promoted into a new position with better pay that reflected work I was already doing. It’s been a long, messy process, and in the middle of it all my company experienced a major budget shortfall. My promotion is the first part of the whole piecemeal reorganization that got approved. As a result of the new financial concerns, I was given a tiered salary adjustment as a way to get me to an equitable spot in the end (a year from now). I’m largely happy with this, but since there are several other promotions and even a few potential hires to follow, a small part of me worries that I might be taking a financial hit that others might not experience. Would it be appropriate to ask HR what steps they are taking when working on this plan as a whole to make sure the effects of our financial situation are shared equitably, or will this come across as whining?

  98. Sarah*

    How do you add accomplishments to a volunteer Board section of a resume? I’m currently chair of a Board, but really all I do is run meetings and provide quotes for press releases. The staff have done most of the work (and it’s great). I don’t want to take credit for their work, so do I just talk about what I did?

    1. Sarah*

      Follow up question – I’m assuming that there should only be a couple lines re. being on the Board of a non-profit compared the rest of my resume. Is that correct?

      1. Lucette Kensack*

        How much space it should take will depend on how engaged your are in the work/how much leadership you provide/what you have helped the org to accomplish.

        It’s ok to take credit for things that you led, even if staff implemented them.

        So, for example: if you led the organization through developing a new strategic vision, navigated a merger with another org, overcame a financial crisis (etc.), you can list those things and use a couple of bullet points to do so. If it was pretty standard stuff (chairing meetings, approving budget, etc.) I’d just list it in a “Community Involvement” or “Civic Leadership” section on one line (“Chair, Fabulous Organization, 2017 – present”).

        1. Sarah*

          Thanks. I have it in a separate section under Volunteer listed like your second example, but the one I’m currently chairing is in start up mode, and staff are doing lots of outreach and great work. Since it’s new, I think I need to frame why this is worth citing. For another role, I (almost single-handedly) transitioned the org from being run by a contractor to a full time ED with additional staff, implementing HR stuff.

  99. Cows go moo*

    Does anyone else work with cray crays with unpredictable mood swings? My colleague Phalange is friendly and happy most of the time…but Phalange also gets into sulky or bitter or ragey moodsd with no prior notice. The worst is when she misinterprets something I said/did, then gets mad at her own interpretation of events rather than what actually happens. Last week she thought I said A when I said Z. She called and screamed at me calling me a liar before hanging up. A few minutes later she called to apologise. This week she’s been sending me bizarre text messages: “You look tired today, remember I am always your cheerleader” “I like working with you so much” “You have the purest heart” I don’t reply to these weird messages but she keeps sending.

    I have talked to her about this issue. Our boss has repeatedly reprimanded her for this issue. Phalange herself knows she has mood swings and has, to her credit, made efforts to improve. But this is who she is, for better or worse, and I know I’m likely to continue encountering her random wrath.

    Any advice on how to continue to work professionally? I am not the kind of person to retort rudely – it’s not my thing and it wouldn’t make me feel any better.

    1. Anax*

      You might find some good advice on sites for friends/family of people with borderline personality disorder – I’ve heard good things about outofthefog, for one. I don’t know if your coworker has BPD, obviously, but I know random, violent mood swings are a common symptom, and I suspect the advice on weathering others’ emotional storms might be useful.

      That sounds really frustrating, goodness sake. Good luck.

    2. Faithful Reader*

      SO MUCH EMPATHY FOR YOU. I have someone like this on my team at work and I feel like I am constantly walking on eggshells around her. Unlike your situation, she’s rarely warm with me anymore — she ranges from cold-but-neutral to unmitigated rage. Just this week, I tried to engage in polite conversation with her and got one-word answers, no eye contact, etc. and then another member of our team joined us and began making small talk and she became bubbly and animated. What the actual….?

      There’s lots of undermine-y stuff happening, too (I’m the director of this particular department.) I feel like she is constantly trying to make me look bad — fortunately, my supervisor is aware and has shared that I’m not the only person to have these sorts of issues with her. It’s very sad because she has tremendous talent, but her interpersonal skills are torpedoing her changes for professional advancement. I don’t really have any advice to give other than to say hang in there and I understand what you’re experiencing.

    3. Lilysparrow*

      Aloof, civil, distance. Do not accept any expression of emotion from her, positive or negative, as having any relationship to reality. Regard the sturm and drang blowing out of her face as a random phenomenon that has nothing to do with you, like weather. If it’s sunny, that’s nice. If there’s a howling blizzard, shut the doors and the blinds and do something cozy for yourself. Whatever you do, don’t argue back at the wind.

      Remember, you are not friends and don’t need to be. You are just trying to get work done. Communicate with her only about facts as needed to get your work done. Keep your tone and wording scrupulously polite. If you want, you could try saying, “Please stop sending me personal text messages. It’s distracting.” But that would probably just set her off. So unless you need to send work info by text, just block her number.

      If she screams at you, say, “I can’t understand what you’re saying when you’re yelling. We can talk about this when you calm down.” And then hang up or leave the room. And tell your boss that Phalange is interrupting your work to scream at you again.

      When she apologizes, say, “Thank you, I appreciate it.” Don’t tell her it’s okay or no big deal. Don’t get sucked into reassuring her or making another big emotional event out of the apology. Just say, “We dealt with that already, let’s move on. How about [work related thing]?”

      By remaining detached and calm as you can, you will counteract her desire for a drama-scene partner. Keep bringing it up to your boss. It’s your boss’s job to keep the workplace a civil and productive place. Make sure they are aware how often these disruptions happen.

  100. Tired - HELP*

    Recently, I’ve come to realize that my job is exhausting. While there’s not a lot of physical exertion, the stress and mental energy needed leaves me very drained by the end of the day. Some of it is this particular job, but it’s also a reality of my field, and me as an employee. I like to give it my ‘all’ so to speak. At the end of my 8-10 hours, I get home and all I can do is sit and watch TV.

    Now for the question, how do I start protecting my energy so I don’t leave it all at work? I realize I likely need to restructure my day (workout in the morning, major tasks, etc.) but I’d like to come home and still have enough oomph to visit with friends, walk the dog, etc.

    I’ll say I genuinely like my job and am in good health, so we can rule out medical issues and switching jobs.

    1. Gladiator*

      I work 12 hour shifts in a high demand job. I found getting some big stuff done before work made me feel better about the day in general. I once read that working out in the mornings felt like a special secret you keep for the day. I found that to be true. I accomplished working out which gave me the positive boost to be more accomplished during the day, plus I didn’t come home with a load of demands on my mind.

    2. Rey*

      I am a creature of habit, so I have to come up with new habits/plans to replace the old thing or it never sticks. Think of physical obstacles so that you don’t sit on the couch to watch TV–like putting stuff on the couch, or stowing the TV remote in a drawer in another room. Then do the same with things you want to accomplish–laying out everything you need to walk the dog or work on your major tasks that it will hit you in the face when you get home from work. You could also try a pomodoro timer, and remember that you’re slowly building up. So on Monday when you get home and walk the dog, remind yourself that it’s the first day and you only have to do it for five minutes. And then next Monday you only have to do it for ten minutes, or whatever increase makes sense to you. I hope this helps

    3. The Man, Becky Lynch*

      I have to “talk” to myself and tell myself what to do a lot of the times. I get home and I say “you must cook dinner, no ordering in. Cook dinner now.” and so I will allow myself to get comfortable in the sense that I put on my house clothes [that makes me feel so old to say but yeah, I like my jammies lol]. And then I do not sit on the couch even for that “well first let’s watch some tv and then I’ll do that…”

      My mom taught me this long ago because she has a physically exhausting job. She’d come home and once she was in that chair, she was done for the count. But if I grabbed her up and said “let’s go do this!” she’d come along. So if I was like “We need to go weed the garden!” then that’s what we did before she went to the crash pad, you know?

      So come home and change your clothes, then grab the dog leash and don’t sit down in between! Channel that energy and play with your good puppers a bit to get them all excited, that energy can be infectious! Once you get out and about, that itself will give you more power to keep going along too. The exercise and the fresh air will push you forward some more. Invite your friends over in advance or make plans, try not to stick with being spontaneous so that you feel like you HAVE to go to your friends to see them or that you have to entertain them because you already invited them.

  101. Burneddd*

    Does anyone work alone? In solitude? Mainly without human interaction? Please tell me about it.

    This is probably the burnout talking, but I am sick of my coworkers and I am tired of the general public (but I am mainly irritated with my slacker coworkers). I just want to do my work in peace and report to my supervisor. Maybe I should ask my supervisor about the possibility of a more solitary role…

    1. Karen from Finance's Work is Full of Bees*

      I did that over the course of 3 different internships. I maybe had coworkers with whom we didn’t speak at all other than hello and goodbye. I do not recommend it, it becomes too much.

      As with most things, for most people what works best is the middle ground.

      Obvious suggestion: can you isolate yourself with headphones? That’s my go-to when my murderous instincts start to surface.

      1. valentine*

        When I can go an entire shift without even an email, I start to think that, when I open the door, it’ll be five years in the future out there. The hush. The hush is paradise.

    2. rose water*

      Yup! I work with sensitive company data so my company has tucked me away in a corner. My work also is completely solo so I don’t have any work-related excuses to chat up my coworkers. The day to day interactions only involve my manager and occasionally the exec team if they need something.

      I’m more or less used to it now. At first, I was miserable because I felt so isolated. If you’re 100% dead set on the mentality that you’re only at work for the paycheck then I think it’s ok. Still, I think a good balance is better.

    3. Hendricks*

      I work third shift, alone. I see a coworker for five minutes at the start of the shift, and five minutes at the end. About once a week, I’ll deal with a client for ten minutes, max.

      I love it to bits. If I want human interact (which I almost never do) then I get it outside work. Being out and about so early in the mornings also means it tends to be very quiet when I do shopping/appointments as well.

      The biggest downside for me, which is still mostly ok, is that for the rest of the company, I don’t really exist. I only see four people out of dozens, so I don’t know anyone’s names even – I’ve only met my supervisor twice. The company is big on employee appreciation tactics (which I mostly dislike – if you appreciate me, pay me more), and I am almost entirely left out or unable to attend those, since they’re held during my sleep period, or gone by the time I get in. My supervisor does make some effort to get some of those perks to me, but I miss out on a lot.

      On another note, if you really, really want to be solitary without actually being able to work alone … well, it’s possible. Just weigh it against what it may hurt. At a previous job, I was 1000% done with people, and after a concentrated effort of not responding, distancing myself, being as boring as possible, even sometimes being rude, people got the hint and mostly stopped bothering me. I could do my work in peace. But I also was called names behind my back, couldn’t ask for any sort of favors, and got feedback on reviews that I was cold. Which I was ok with, but many others would not be.

      1. Amethyst*

        That sounds absolutely lovely. What field do you work in, if you don’t mind me asking? Currently working a placeholder job in retail while job searching & I’m burnt out dealing with the public. You seeing absolutely no one in your shift sounds like complete bliss to me.

        1. Hendricks*

          Night audit at a very small hotel. The quiet is super dependent on location and property, so be aware of that. There’s also always a risk that you’ll have to deal with something major all alone, and a lot of people aren’t comfortable with that. Pay is better than any other shifts, but not great.

    4. The Grammarian*

      I do. I work from home and I’m an individual contributor, so I rarely have calls or meetings. I’ve been doing it for over a year now and it honestly gets rather lonely (I live in an area where I don’t have a community). I do prefer it over in-person work because I have quiet and I have the use of my own bathroom.

    5. I need a vacation*

      I work alone and it’s WONDERFUL. I’m on a lot of conference calls, but no one drops in, no one makes noise in the hallway, it’s fantastic.

    6. I edit everything*

      I’m a freelance editor, working with multiple clients from home. While I love working on my own, I do find that I have to venture out of my cave every now and then. I have a friend who I’ll meet up with once or twice a week in a quiet place (library, coffee shop), and we’ll not talk to each other in the same place. Pretty much my ideal.

    7. I See Real People*

      I worked in my own business at home for 12 years. With the exception of becoming a little socially-aloof, there was no down side that I could see. When I needed to be with other people, I joined the PTA or other organization with other parents. I enjoyed the quiet and working whenever I wanted. I never worried about insomnia because I could work all night if I couldn’t sleep. It was wonderful. It was lost to technology in 2010. I went back to work outside the home and have been here since.

    8. Fortitude Jones*

      I work alone and in solitude because I have a 100% remote position, so I’m working from home – it’s glorious. I was tired of being in offices all the time and dealing with annoying personalities when I could do what I do for a living (proposal development) from home, so I searched for remote jobs with this function and found a great one with a software company that, coincidentally, is headquartered outside of my hometown (I no longer live in that state). It only took me four months of serious job searching to find this one, and going into my fourth week, I’m happy I took this position.

      If you’re really burned out on the office politics, but still like your job and want to stay with your company, ask your supervisor if you can work remotely either full time or a couple of times a week.

    9. pcake*

      I work in my living room, so most of my interaction is via email. It’s relaxing and wonderful most of the time.

  102. Lynne876*

    I have a phone interview with a MAJOR non-profit on Monday! Even if I don’t move forward with an in-person interview, I’m just happy knowing that my resume & cover letter were great enough to peak the interest of this company!

    On a related note, what sort of mindsets help you guys get in the “interviewing mode,” where you’re relaxed & confident in you’re interview, but you’re still realistic about your expectations in that you might not get the job?

    1. RainbowsAndKitties*

      This may be a weird approach, but I always just assume I didn’t get the job. Then it’s a happy surprise if I do get the job! lol

      Of course I go into the interview trying my best and with the attitude that “I’m getting this job!” but after the follow up thank you e-mail, I just kind of “forget about it” and move on to the next thing. Otherwise I would drive myself insane with anxiety/worry!

      Before I go into an interview I always do the Superman (Wonder Woman!) power pose. I feel like power posing has been debunked, but the placebo affect is still active with me lol I always feel more confident. And as I’m power posing I listen to my “get hype” songs, which are “Eye of the Tiger” and “Roar” by Katy Perry.

      Basically to sum this all up: Find what works for you to get yourself pumped up before interviews! And find what works for you afterwards that will prevent you from driving yourself crazy lol

      Good luck!

      1. Anax*

        Honestly, I go into my interviews assuming I didn’t get the job too – those are always the ones I do the best at, because it makes the emotional stakes lower for me (anxiety!), and I’m focused on being forthright and clear, rather than trying to project a super-employee image.

        I feel like in my industry (IT), especially once you get to the in-person interview stage, a lot of employers really appreciate blunt honesty – they know you won’t know EVERYTHING they want, and hyperinflated resumes are very common, so … laying all my cards on the table has worked really well.

        Other industries might vary there, of course.

  103. Anon anony*

    I’m leaving toxic job!! I still have an exit interview. What do I say? How truthful should you be?

    1. LaDeeDa*

      Is exit interview a third party or internal? Is it anonymous, do they lump them all together? Do you care about rehiring?

    2. Jan Levinson*

      At my last toxic job, my exit interview was with an HR person who I didn’t know (it’s a huge, multinational company). They had me fill out paperwork grading different aspects of the job from 1-5. I graded almost everything a 1 or 2. The HR person seemed unconcerned and simply commented, “oh, sorry you didn’t have a good experience – some people love it, others not so much!” I know in reality almost no one loves it based on the company’s awful Glassdooor ratings.

      Anyway, to answer your question, I would be honest (while staying professional, of course.) I have no intention of ever returning to my previous job, or using anyone there as a reference, so I was fine with being upfront. I will say it should have been harder to be honest had I been in an exit interview with people I worked with on a daily basis.

    3. Nicki Name*

      How much truth do you think they can handle? How likely do you think it is that issues might be addressed for the sake of the co-workers you’re leaving behind?

    4. AdAgencyChick*

      If it’s important to you to have a good reference in the future, I’d be pretty guarded. If the company is toxic, it’s likely that the information will be ignored at best, or filtered back to remaining employees in a way that identifies you as the giver of the feedback, at worst. (HR says these things are anonymous, but unless dozens of people are fleeing for the exits at once and all saying the same thing, it’s pretty easy to pinpoint on a report that comes out, say, quarterly, who gave certain exit interview feedback.)

      I’m Cynical Me today :P

    5. RainbowsAndKitties*

      Do you want to burn a bridge, or no?

      However, I once gave a scathing (but 100% honest) exit interview to a place I left that was highly toxic. They let me leave that day early and paid me for the rest of the day. Basically, they wanted to address some of the things I had said, and figured I would be uncomfortable being there when it happened.

      Also, when I was job hunting recently I spoke to my former coworker (who is still there) and she said that things had changed a lot. I mentioned how there was no way they would hire me back after throwing everyone under the bus, but she said that one of the managers actual mentioned reaching out to me about a recent opening(!?!?!)

      So…basically: You never know what will happen, but if you want to be honest, prepare for the worst case scenario.

      1. RainbowsAndKitties*

        P.S. – I think part of why my honesty went over so well is that I didn’t just say: “Your environment is toxic and it sucks working here!”

        I gave specific examples of things that made me uncomfortable and talked about how I think those things were hurting the company as a whole. Basically I took the stance that I want them to succeed as a company, but that I couldn’t stay and be a part of it because of xyz.

    6. Earthwalker*

      An exit interview may not be what you expect. I was asked a lot of detailed questions about who had delivered my new employee orientation and how effective it was. Orientation had happened ten years before and the guy who gave it was long retired. I wasn’t asked about the problems that led me to quit. So I knew HR was just going through the motions. I had seen what they did with employee feedback of any kind: distill it into three word bullet points that didn’t reflect the original concern and order someone not involved to do something unrelated to the concern. So I vote for “don’t say anything” where you already have a toxic job. They aren’t going to suddenly turn sensible and responsible and act wisely on your feedback. And you need references.

  104. Karen from Finance's Work is Full of Bees*

    Further Updates on “my coworker is an animal-hurting psycho and also my CEO is sort-of-harrassing me” Startup Hell.

    Had my performance review, it went really well. 4.6/5. I got a nice raise – I’m still below market rates, but I’m closer now. Boss and I talked a lot. He asked about whether I saw a future in the company, I just kinda went “meh”, he chuckled.. and he made a pretty decent case for how it could be strategic for me to learn as much as I can here, which is easier in such a small company where roles aren’t as segmented, so that I can then move on to a managing role in the future (the “somewhere else” was implied there). He’s 1 of 2 people in this hellhole that I trust and the whole conversation was very mentor-y, and I haven’t had many good bosses in my past. Goddammit hellhole, why can’t you be ALL terrible.

    So anyway, I finally told him about the comments the animal-hurting new girl made, and he thanked me for telling him. Didn’t tell him about the harrassment though, because I don’t want him to try and fix it, I decided if anyone’s going to tell the CEO to stop it it’s got to be me, I can’t send someone else. Boss can have my back if there’s fallout, I trust he will.

    So that’s that.

    And as I left that meeting, I got an email telling me I was rejected for the job I really really wanted, because it would have been my very first leadership role. I got sooo close, too. But I fudged the interview, I could tell. I let a little too much of my current frustrations show and it read as insubordination (which… fair. I don’t blame them). So back to square 1 with the job search, because now I have no idea to which jobs I should even be applying anymore.

    It’s beginning to sound way too reasonable that I should stay here until I get promoted, if/when that ever happens, and then jump from there to a better role in another company, but on another hand I’m scared this is what being gaslit is like?

    The Man, Becky Lynch: are you here? You always make me think sense again.

    1. Reba*

      Not the Man, Becky Lynch, but….. I don’t understand your thinking on the CEO harassment thing. It sounds like you can have frank conversations with your boss. So what’s stopping you from bringing this up, in the context of “things that are concerning about the job”?

      1. Karen from Finance*

        My reasoning is.. he’s a man, and if my reaction to something like this is running to another man for help so that they can talk it out with each other, something about it feels very uncomfortable to me.

        Also, because of the way this office (not my boss, this office) works, I really need to avoid anything that reads as “making a big deal out of things” if I’m to still be taken seriously here. If I run to my boss before trying to handle it myself, they can frame me as irrational, CEO can claim he didn’t know I had a problem with it, Karen’s the problematic one creating this whole situation…. So forth.

        If I go “hey CEO, can you please just call me Karen?” and he reacts badly, though, that’s when boss can just go “no, that’s not how you treat her”. That minimizes my exposure.

        That’s my reasoning, though I admit it’s more emotional than rational.

        1. leya*

          okay, i’m probably biased because we literally had sexual harassment training at work yesterday, but i would really, really encourage you to report this. it’s not “running to your boss” – they have legal obligations to stop this. they have a legal liability if it continues and someone complains (even if it’s someone else). but until you complain, they unfortunately don’t legally have to do anything. you obviously know your office better than i do, and i want to especially emphasize that if you can’t bring yourself to report it, you’re NOT a bad person – but i would be thrilled if you did. take care of yourself first, but you don’t have to just assume that you’re powerless.

          also with regards to this:

          It’s beginning to sound way too reasonable that I should stay here until I get promoted, if/when that ever happens, and then jump from there to a better role in another company, but on another hand I’m scared this is what being gaslit is like?

          yes, this is what being gaslit is like. as someone with no stake in this, all of this is completely crazytown, and i am very skeptical that staying for any real length of time would get you any career advancement that would outweigh the serious damage this environment is doing to you. please, please keep your chin up – i am sure you will find lots of opportunities out there and that you can find a great fit.

          keep us updated – i’m rooting for you!

          1. Karen from Finance's Work is Full of Bees*

            Thank you, I think I needed to hear all of this.

            1. leya*

              of course! i’m happy to help. you’re clearly thoughtful, conscientious, and competent, and you deserve better than this environment. i would encourage you, to the extent that you can, to emotionally disconnect from this place, and to not trust any of the people above you as far as you can throw them when it comes to your personal career advancement. i’m sure your direct supervisor has your back as much as he can – but his obligations are ultimately to a company that sounds like it wants to exploit your goodwill and work ethic. just keep reminding yourself that you deserve far, far better than this treatment.

              1. valentine*

                Reporting is getting ahead of the message and establishing a foundation. It at least gives your boss a heads up and doesn’t leave either of you blindsided if the CEO spins it as “Karen came on to me and I rejected her, so she made up this wild story to punish me/get you onside”.

                he’s a man, and if my reaction to something like this is running to another man for help so that they can talk it out with each other, something about it feels very uncomfortable to me.
                Men created this and I’m happy for them to fix it if they really do. But you want a boss of any or no gender who is happy to clear barriers to you working in peace.

          2. Reba*

            Agree with this! Karen, I wonder if it would sit better with you to *inform* your boss of what is going on with CEO, like “here is some context, I plan to push back in X way [or not] and I hope you’ll have my back” rather than feeling like you are asking him for “help” or to fix this for you?

            Also, try to remove your Boss’s gender from your thinking about this. Boss has a responsibility to you (and to the company to protect it from legal liability!) that is based on his position as your Boss, not on his being a man or whatever.

            Good luck, this place sounds WILD so keep your wits about you!

        2. The Man, Becky Lynch*

          I can’t talk you in or out of reporting the harassment and how you want to handle it because that’s something you have to think about and know what’s going to be best for you. Yes, its’ illegal and yes, they are dancing in really dark waters here with having this CEO schmuck doing his illegal, gross stuff.

          But there’s a flipside and I know that’s why many women don’t report or fight it. It’s hard to win. It’s hard to bring a case and it’s hard to deal with the fallout that comes from it. It can rock boats and rock your career path and it’s vile disgusting and unreal how that’s still a thing in this day and age. More people are coming forward and more people are speaking out, so you have that to think about with the #metoo movement but we’re still punished. We’re still scarred. We’re still abused and we’re still scared AF at what the “consequences” will be.

          Whatever you decide is your own very personal decision and you need to know what’s best for you and what you will be able to deal with. You don’t need to take all of us on your shoulders and take one for the “woman” team or “marginalized” team, unless that’s truly what your heart tells you to do. [This is why I could never ever be Olivia Benson, I cannot straight up tell you that you should report it and trust the system/laws to work for you, I don’t trust our system or laws to ever work for us as women, it’s sick].

    2. Close Bracket*

      Boss can have my back if there’s fallout, I trust he will.

      For your boss to effectively have your back, you need to tell him.

    3. I Work on a Hellmouth*

      Hey, I just wanted to tell you that I really feel for you on the rejection–it stinks, but you can’t beat yourself up about it. And maybe this interview experience is actually going to prep you for getting a job that you’ll want even more.

      But more importantly, I just wanted to tell you that I occasionally have been made to think “Maybe it just makes more sense to stay here,” too… even though it very clearly DOES NOT ACTUALLY MAKE SENSE FOR ME TO STAY HERE. My jerkbrain is just setting me up. I think maybe your jerkbrain might be messing with you, too? It happens. Jerkbrains are rotten.

      1. Karen from Finance's Work is Full of Bees*

        So I read that and thought “what? NO! But your work is the infamous Hellmouth, why on earth would you consider staying?”

        And then I realized this is how I sound like too, so, huh. Thanks.

        Stupid jerkbrains.

        1. The Man, Becky Lynch*

          Beware of the Stockholm Syndrome that can set in! [Both of you!] It’s a real thing…

          I have a former coworker, whom I adore and had to talk down off that cliff a few times about our former Toxic Boss of Doom and Destruction. He was straight out sexist and did an awful job trying to do a “sexual harassment training” that was…extra sexist. And she was like “Ah no, I didn’t think it was that bad, he tried.” NO HE DIDNT! And she was like “He cares, he has daughters!” “I didn’t say and will never say he doesn’t love his kids but that doesn’t mean he’s not doing an awful job at protecting his staff. He’s chicken sh*t and has all the power to make this stop, not just say “guys, it’s not funny, stop.”

          He literally said “Times have changed and we’re not allowed to make these kinds of comments anymore.”

          Time
          Has
          Changed
          Cuz it was okay back in the day…before those silly rules came around, right right right? Yikes! But yeah, she’s wonderful but was so soft to this boar.

      2. Seeking Second Childhood*

        Our inner self will try to rationalize anything … just to keep us plugging along for survival. And our inner self is often lazy and tries to find reasons the easy way is best.
        It can be so hard to push through to find a new&better job (or home or relationship! ) that we do not do it…which is how people look up and realize they’ve been driving 30 miles a day for 20 years when they hate driving. You know you want something different, and you’ve found your cheerleaders–we’ll help t r y to keep you on target. Good luck!

    4. The Man, Becky Lynch*

      I am here!

      First of all, your manager is correct, I agree with him that you’re earning a lot of valuable experience [even though it’s experience infected with evil bees]. That was EXACTLY how I recouped from Toxic Job of Doom a couple of years ago. I was able to channel my energy into “This place is horrid and the owners are The Worst [but not sexually harassing me, he was a sexist pigface though]. BUT I was able to get my footing in New City and able to get The Experience I needed in New State “regs” that some people were looking at me from the side like “meeeeeh you’ve never done this though….so Idk idk.”

      So that’s a silver lining. And it’s why you shouldn’t necessarily leave without a job lined up or something, unless the harassment escalates and you truly feel unsafe, then Ef It, GET OUT.

      I wouldn’t bench your job search or anything! Just keep yourself afloat at the Evil Bee Hive with the understanding that there are a few “positives” that you’re able to use in the future. If you get a promotion prior to leaving, then yes, it’s so much better leverage for you to use to get a job you’re really excited about! But don’t bench that job search in lieu of gunning for a promotion to be even closer to the top of the Evil Hive. This all has to continue to be tandem.

      It’s exhausting but it’ll be worth it. You’re so early in your career at this stage, this is the time to fight for yourself and take all the experience and drill down for every positive thing you can out of it on your way to a higher ranking spot in the finance department.

      1. Karen from Finance*

        Thank you, I’ve been thinking about this since you posted it, hadn’t replied because I don’t think I have much to add yet.

        But what you say does bring a reasonable middle ground between the two extreme postures I’ve been split in: “GET OUT NOW” vs “IT’S FINE”. But taking my time and making the most of a bad situation until I find something better, whenever that is, that I can do. (I’ve been listening to Wait For It from Hamilton on repeat way too much these days, but it’s a form of therapy on itself.)

        1. The Man, Becky Lynch*

          Hamilton is the best way to keep yourself sane =)

          It’s hard not to just feel the two extremes, our bodies are naturally geared towards either “Flight” or “Fight” not “just punch the bag until I get my exit planned out.”

          I had to do the same thing with my toxic job. I was ready to stay and fight it out until I found something else or had enough savings to walk out on them.

  105. Aggretsuko*

    So there is a very useful website in my line of work that has been shut down for 2 years while they revamp it. We have been having problems because they haven’t added any new info for roughly the last 2 years.
    New website is online today and…IT STILL HASN’T BEEN UPDATED WITH THE NEW INFO FOR THE LAST TWO YEARS. WHAT THE FUCKING FUCK?

    In other news: we already have two staff members on long term medical leave. One will probably never be able to come back, the other is supposedly returning around mid-June but who knows. Now a third one is constantly calling out sick and guess what, probably wants to go out on medical leave, specifically because she’s sick of this job being stressful and anything she asks for to make it better is given a no. Goddammit, we can’t afford to keep losing people.

  106. LQ*

    Promotion role opened last week. Closed this week. I know it’s been no time at all but I want this over with. I’m barely sleeping at all I’m so intensely nervous and stressed about it. I just want it done with. It’s also very strange because a bunch of people are already treating me like I’ve gotten the job or talking about when it happens and I CANNOT do that (chickens and eggs and unions oh my) so I’m just sort of nervously making noncommittal noises while they talk about who will report to me and what will happen with my work.

    Mostly I’m stressed out because I don’t know how I’m going to do everything I’m doing now, plus manage a team (likely just 1-2 people to start but still a team), plus 2 more GIANT projects that are supposed to be starting in the next month. How do people do this much work? I’m already in meetings a solid 4-5 hours a day most days. We have a culture of no meetings before 9 and no lunch meetings but I already have to break that to get all the meetings in I need to be a part of/hold. Monday next week I’m triple booked for 2 hours and I have meetings from 8:30-4, no lunch. How do I do more work on top of that? (And now I’m going to go have another panic attack…)

    1. WellRed*

      If you get promoted, why wouldn’t the person who takes your old position be doing your old job instead of you dragging it all along? Do you really need to be part of all these meetings? I never understand companies that have that many meetings? Is the whole point of the business to sit around and talk about business? How do they get actual work done?

      1. LQ*

        No one will take my old job, my old job is the promotion? It’s basically I’ve been doing the work for a year and they are going to promote me to the job I’ve been doing…(I hope…chickens and hatching and all that.)

        I’m in a leadership role mostly I guess? The meetings are one on ones, status meetings (which I’d prefer to have documented but the documents are horrible so it has to be a conversation), planning meetings, some working meetings where I’m working with someone (think like BA requirements gathering kinds of things), and then a lot of meetings that should be documents but again the documents are horrible (I spent 2 months asking weekly for a document with security items and got nothing, I finally gave up, made it a meeting and got the information I needed).
        We also have a meetings over emails/documents culture which contributes.

        I definitely don’t feel like I’m getting actual work done a lot of days, and I have a giant stack of write documents, research stuff, plan stuff that I can do after everyone has left. But the new work is going to just be more project meetings…It’s going to be the same groups of people now who when you ask for a plan don’t write one for 6 months and then say well just give us more money and more time…you did nothing, no product, no nothing. I’ve got a lot of work to do but when I’m not the person who physically does the work I don’t know how to get it done other than meetings and expectations. (I do miss being the person who physically does the work…but then I can only do the work I can physically do…)

        (It was a helpful question thank you, I’m staring at my calendar before my next meeting wondering what of it I could really get rid of and how…)

  107. Sarah*

    I need help assessing whether I have the right to be irritated about something or not…

    I’ve been working at a large company for about 7 years. I was hired right out of college and worked on the same team for 4 years as a junior analyst. During those 4 years, I spoke with my manager regularly about some day taking on a leadership role and completed some company offered trainings that he recommended. I also completed my MBA during that time. I was offered a position in another area of the company and took it. After being on the new team for about a year and a half, my old manager reached out to me and asked if I wanted to come back as a senior analyst. He said that he envisioned me transitioning to a leadership/supervisory role within about 9 months if I came back. I said yes and started back on my old team. Since then, I re-took the training without asking, and point blank asked my manager to tell me what I need to work on to move to the next level. He said that I just need to keep doing what I’m doing and that I’ve been ready to move up for a long time. I’ve acted as the lead on several projects since I came back so I know that I’ve held up my end of the bargain, so to speak. At the 9 month mark, he gave me a 5% raise but no promotion. I’m VERY appreciative for the raise but confused about what it means. It’s been 3 months since then and no talk of when exactly I would be moving to a supervisor role. Knowing how these things work, I’d be surprised to get a promotion right after a merit raise – they aren’t going to give me two raises in one year, right?? So, I’m a little frustrated that I’m still playing the waiting game but not sure if I have any right to feel that way. What do you think?

    1. I edit everything*

      Ask. “Hey, Boss–This is what we talked about. You said I was on track for that promotion. What’s the status of that?”

    2. Linkelle*

      I think you need to sit your boss down and ask exactly what’s up. You made an agreement, you’re sticking to your end of the bargain, what’s he doing on yours. I would also set out a timeline for the promotion to happen (within three months) and be prepared to leave if that doesn’t happen.

      Unfortunately, my guess is the 5% raise (which is a lot less than he would have had to pay you if you were promoted!!) was to hold you off so you wouldn’t ask, and he could continue getting a supervisor for a senior analyst salary.

      1. Mazzy*

        I’m not seeing where you got the supervisor part. I don’t see that they’ve been acting at a supervisory level.

        Sarah, I think your boss in stringing you along because they don’t know what to tell you, and they don’t have a timeline, but they like you and your work. That is not necessarily a bad thing. Personally, I’ve dealt with this by setting proper expectations for myself, rather than taking what any manager has said at face value. You want to go into a management role at a pretty young age. Is this normal for your industry and company? What qualifications do actual managers at your company have? I wouldn’t go to your boss for this, because it sounds like you’re not going to get a straight answer. I’d do research on your own. I’d also ask myself why the rush to management and if there is actually anything wrong with being a Senior Analyst. There might be, if you work somewhere that inflated job titles. But at many places I’ve worked, Senior Analyst is a perfectly great job and professionals in their 40s and beyond hold the position and get paid well and do great things in it. Moving to management isn’t necessarily a step up from that role. It may feel like a lateral move with more stress once you get there, and realize that just because people are below you on an org chart, it doesn’t mean you’re better off or in a better place than any of them.

  108. Linkelle*

    So I just had a day of interviews (6 different people over several hours) and I have this thing where I cannot for the life of me remember what was said in the interviews. It’s like my memory just whites out from them, so it makes it very hard to write thank you notes that are genuine! Help!?

    (I’ve tried taking notes, which has been somewhat helpful, but wasn’t able to for this particular session).

  109. Linkelle*

    So I just had a day of interviews (6 different people over several hours) and I have this thing where I cannot for the life of me remember what was said in the interviews. It’s like my memory just whites out from them, so it makes it very hard to write thank you notes that are genuine! Help!?

    (I’ve tried taking notes, which has been somewhat helpful, but wasn’t able to for this particular session).

    1. Miley Hemsworth*

      Assuming you have a smartphone…. after each interview, use the video or voice recorder app on your phone and record some quick notes while it is still fresh in your mind. Alternatively, you could email or text yourself the notes. Then refer back to them when writing your thank you notes.

    2. The Man, Becky Lynch*

      Curious, was this six different people in the same company? Or six different companies?!

      If it’s all the same company, you don’t need to be really thoughtful and insightful about what you talked to them about specifically. Honestly, all the thank-you notes I get don’t mention much other than “Thank you, I enjoyed getting to speak with you about the position. I think that Company would be a great place to work and I look forward to hearing back from you when you’ve made your decision.”

      Sure, people will say it’s generic and “not good enough” but honestly, as a person who’s hired and been hired plenty over the years, it’s enough. It’s really enough. Thank-you letters are just to circle back and remind them of you.

      It’s absolutely normal to have that blurry feeling afterwards and having so much information thrown at you from all ways. Much of which sounds like jibberish because you’re not in the company yet.

    3. MintLavendar*

      I rarely bother with thank-you notes after interviews at all, but in situations where you interviewed with 6 different people from the same company, I would honestly just do one email, with all of them cc’d, and address the group like “Thanks so much for having me in your office to talk about the role! Let me know if I can provide any additional information or answer any questions” etc etc.

  110. BrightLights*

    How many hours do you work a week? What’s normal in your workplace? Is that on par with your industry norm?

    My company has some culture of performative overtime but also has weeks where I’m genuinely working 80+ hours, which is not the norm in the industry. I’m curious what this looks like for others.

    1. Jadelyn*

      So, context: I’m in HR for a financial services/community development nonprofit.

      Within my team, we really do generally only do 40ish hours a week. Managers sometimes do more like 50, but not on a regular basis. Senior leadership on other teams, though, I think they’re more regularly doing 50 hrs/wk or so.

    2. May*

      I’m in the office from about 8:30-5:30 every day, maybe 1-2 days a week I leave as late as 6:30. I’m an attorney working in house in a pretty formal industry. I know I’m pretty lucky with my hours. 80 hours a week, they would have to be paying me about double to make me even consider that. Honestly even then it wouldn’t be worth it to me, I need sleep.

    3. Overeducated*

      My work schedule is very very structured. 8 hours work, 30 minute mandatory unpaid lunch, overtime must be formally approved. I think you have to be a very high level manager to NOT be treated as though you’re non-exempt when it comes to hours (I’m not even sure how high level because my managers haven’t been high enough).

      1. LQ*

        I work in government, this is what we have. I’m the only person in my entire department at my role/pay scale level who is working 50+ hours regularly. I am getting overtime pay (which I formally request weekly). The entire building goes nearly silent by 4:45. Only the cleaning staff and security crews (not government employees) are here past then. The management level above me is exempt/not hourly and some of them (ok 1 of them) do work long hours, though they usually work extra time from home. Other than that our work is 100% on site no remote work.

        I also work with another department where I work with IT people who are hourly and get OT. Which is really unusual as well. They work slightly shifted hours around a core and can WFH but very few of them work any OT, they work their 37.5 with breaks and are done. They get OT and on call pay when they do need to work any more hours.

    4. Peaches*

      I work 40 hours a week every week. 7:30-4:30 M-F. I’ve been here almost 4 years and there have only been a handful of times when I’ve worked late (late being no later than 5:00). It’s just not the nature of the position I’m in (our office doors don’t even unlock until 7:30 AM, and automatically lock at 4:30 PM). I work in a customer service/contract specialist role. I would say this is on par with the norm in the industry.

    5. blue square*

      Analytics for financial services.

      I work 8-5 every day with a one-hour lunch break. I maybe either come in a half hour early or leave a half hour late a few times a week.

      Most people at my work trickle in at 8ish but leave right at 5. There are a few people here that consistently work way more than the norm (i.e. come in at 6AM leave at 7PM or later).

    6. ThatGirl*

      I work in consumer goods and 40 hrs is very much the norm for my company, some people higher up the food chain do put in longer hours sometimes and end of the year tends to be our busy season, but I would say 95% of people don’t work more than 45 hours a week. They actually do believe in work-life balance here.

    7. MissKatie*

      I am a GM of a fast casual breakfast chain. I am newly transitioning from being a shift supervisor to being GM so I am still hourly. I typically work 48-55 hours a week although sometimes it can be as much as 65. The company that runs this restaurant also runs multiple others and I feel like this is on par for the industry.

    8. londonedit*

      UK book publishing – I’m contracted to work 37.5 hours a week with an hour’s unpaid lunch break (all fairly normal here) and that’s what I do. One of the few upsides of the rubbish salaries in my industry is that no one expects you to work too far beyond your contracted hours, except if there’s something on a crazy deadline.

  111. Jadelyn*

    Anyone else submitting their company’s EEO-1 at the last minute today? It took me almost a dozen tries to get the site to let me log in, then a couple more tries where I went to go to the report itself and got kicked back out to the login screen. I was starting to think I might be spending all day refreshing that stupid site and trying to get logged in, but I finally made it all the way to the certify screen and was able to finish it!

    Mind you, I was done with our EEO-1 on Tuesday and ready to submit it, but because this year was a handoff of the EEO-1 responsibility from my counterpart at HQ and her director, to me and my director, senior management asked us to wait until the formerly-responsible director could review it. I had already reviewed thoroughly, my counterpart who used to do it had reviewed it and said it looked fine and it was ready to submit, but they wanted OldDirector to look at it.

    Well, OldDirector is NOTORIOUSLY slow to respond to…literally any and every request, no matter who it’s from or what it’s for. So I told her, hey, please review, but whether I hear back from you before then or not, I’m going to submit it first thing Friday morning – no waiting til end of day, because there are bound to be high-traffic server issues on the deadline day so we don’t want to be scrambling last minute. And sure enough, nothing from her on Wednesday, nothing on Thursday…I came in this morning to an email from her saying “Ok, it looks good, thanks”. Yeah, thanks for waiting til the last second so I had to stress about whether the site would let me submit it.

    OldDirector is retiring at the end of this month – I hope her successor is a bit more on top of things!

  112. Recruiters are nuts*

    A weird thing happened to a friend of mine (let’s call him Jeff) recently and I’m wondering if this is actually normal and I’m crazy. Jeff was working with an external recruiter for a job at Company A, he ended up taking a job at Company B instead. The recruiter was being pretty clingy – calling or texting most days, insisting on having prep phone calls before every step of the interview process, that kind of thing. After Jeff took the job with Company B he told the recruiter he wasn’t interested in Company A anymore, recruiter congratulated him and asked him what company it was. When Jeff told him he got all excited talking about how great a company that is and then asked if Jeff knew if they were hiring internal recruiters as he would love to work there. I just think that’s bizarre. First of all Jeff doesn’t even work there yet! He can’t really get anyone a job. But it also just kind of seems unprofessional? Has this ever happened to anyone else.

    1. A Simple Narwhal*

      Meh, it’s not common in my experience, but I don’t think there was any harm in the recruiter saying that. And if a recruiting job opens up and Jeff didn’t have a terrible time with the recruiter, he might earn himself a sweet referral bonus.

      Weird? Yes. Out of line? No.

    2. T. Boone Pickens*

      Yeah it’s a little weird but external recruiter could be halfway out the door at their current firm and be looking to find a new place to jump to.

      1. Fortitude Jones*

        True, but the recruiter probably should have waited until Jeff started and had been there for a few months before asking. Like OP said, he has no sway with this company since he doesn’t officially work there yet. Recruiter jumped the gun.

  113. Anonymousaurus Rex*

    Should two cover letters applying for roles on the same team be entirely different? I’m applying for two internal positions on the same team at my company. One would be a lateral move (Sr. Specialist), the other a step up (Manager). I used the same resume for the application, but wrote two cover letters, one emphasizing my previous management experience and the other emphasizing my specialist skills. However, I kept the last paragraph, which was more about how I work and less about accomplishments, largely the same for the two. The same hiring manager will be reading both letters. Okay strategy, or should the letters be entirely different??

    1. CountryLass*

      Personally I think that the paragraph about yourself and your work ethic is fine to stay the same, as you are the same person not matter the role. If the different roles had needed different work habits then that would be different, but I think you should be fine.

    2. The Ginger Ginger*

      Since they’re for 2 different roles, I think it makes sense that a couple paragraph’s will be different. Especially since one is management and the other specialized. The way you described it makes perfect sense to me.

  114. CountryLass*

    Should I enquire about a colleague who has suddenly started working odd hours? We are in an office, and although different departments, we sit next to each other and there is generally some crossover, some of my clients are also her clients but for different aspects of their stuff. The office is open 9-530, but the past months or so she has been working 8:30-3:30 and missing lunch to make it up, or coming in late and missing lunch to make some of it up. We aren’t strict about hours, as long as the office is staffed, your work is done and you don’t take the mickey we are quite flexible.

    Partly it’s because I’m relentlessly curious and have a need to know everything that goes on (I try to to show it too much at work, but not knowing something or a secret is like an itch under my skin). But I’m also wondering if everything is ok with her or her family. I don’t want to pry and come across as nosy, but I can’t think of an appropriate way to bring it up… Should I just leave it and figure I’ll know when she is ready to tell people?

    1. Trinity Beeper*

      Are you friendly with her? If so, you might be able to ask her directly (citing that you want to make sure she’s okay), but don’t push if she gives a vague answer. If you’re not friendly with her, you might be able to get the answer from somebody who is, but I wouldn’t ask directly – that’s just me, coming from fellow busybody!

      1. CountryLass*

        She wouldn’t be on my top 10 list of people to shove off a cliff, but also I wouldn’t jump in front of a car for her… I don’t think she likes me very much, but we get on ok at work. Although she tends to snap at me if I talk to her when she is busy, even if I haven’t spoken a word to her for an hour and had no way of knowing she was busy!

        1. AvonLady Barksdale*

          Then I would steer clear of her. This isn’t your business. I get the curiosity, but this is not information you need to know, especially if you get the feeling she doesn’t like you. She will like you so much less if you ask her about her hours.

    2. LCL*

      My experience has been that when someone deliberately changes to consistently earlier hours, it’s either for family care (usually kids but not always) or to avoid traffic. In the rest of the world, people will also do this for college classes. The college class reason doesn’t happen in our office, because the shift work schedule doesn’t easily allow for college.

    3. WellRed*

      I’d be curious too, but I don’t think those hours are that odd. It’s a small shift.

      1. CountryLass*

        I did mention it to another colleague as we left today, just asked if she knew when Sansa was working different hours recently? And she said she isn’t sure but she knows she has been visiting her mother in law a lot recently so it could be that. I said I was glad it was something like that as I’d started to worry she was poorly and having hospital appointments! Then changed the subject so it didn’t look like I was massively invested in the topic.

    4. Pocket Mouse*

      I’d treat this the same way I’d treat a coworker who I suspect may be pregnant: let them tell you on their own schedule. If it’s Something Big, it’ll become obvious or you’ll get wind of it, and if not, it’s probably not your business anyway.

      That said, Ramadan began in early May. Someone more knowledgeable can correct me if I’m wrong, but I think it’s a rather common accommodation to shift one’s working hours and take an abbreviated lunch when fasting during Ramadan.

  115. Atlantis*

    Got an interesting question in a recent phone interview: What are people’s biggest misconceptions of you?

    Thankfully it was one of the last questions they asked, because it totally threw me off and I had to just kind of come up with an answer that sort of fit. I’ve never thought about finding out what misconceptions people had about me. I’m curious to see how others would answer this question because as far as I’ve ever seen, most misconceptions I have about other people tend to be negative (I thought they were nice but later discovered they were a jerk kind of thing). Someone I worked with recently told that she thought I was a very serious, focused person when we first met, but as she got to know me she got to see more of my sense of humor and my quirks along with my ability to be focused, so that will be my answer going forward, but other than that it was a weird one to be asked.

    So, what are people’s biggest misconceptions about you?

    1. CountryLass*

      Lol, that I am kind, sweet and a friendly pushover. Which I am when I’m not bothered about something, but people are always surprised when the b!tch in me comes out when needed. My old manager was gobsmacked when (after working with me for a while and thinking that) I found out a solicitor had blatantly lied to me, then told out mutual client something different… She sat there with her mouth open when I picked up the phone and tore a strip off the solicitor!

      1. Arts Akimbo*

        +1 to this. I think people see me as a people pleaser. But my boundaries are quite firm, and it shocks people when I am rigid in enforcing them. Choosing to be a polite person has nothing to do with being a pushover, but many people mistake politeness for weakness.

    2. gizmo*

      Growing up my parents taught me that subjecting other people to your moods is rude so a common misconception I get is that I’m robotic or emotionless. I think it’s further exasperated because I’m a woman and people have certain expectations on how women should act. In reality, I’m a highly sensitive person to the point that I needed to seek therapy. It’s just that I’m good at hiding how I feel.

    3. 1234*

      My Resting B___ Face. Really, nothing is wrong. I’m fine/comfortable/happy or can deal with whatever is happening.

    4. nacho*

      This sounds like one of those “what is your biggest weakness” questions, where the correct answer is less about the misconceptions, and more about what you do to fix them. Something like “People tend to think I’m cold or distant, so I’ve been working hard on showing more emotion and interacting more with my teammates during work.”

      1. TheOtherLiz*

        We ask something similar often in interviews where I work, and it’s NOT about what you do to fix them; it’s because people are often very honest because they didn’t expect the question, and we learn something edifying about them – but not always in their favor. For instance, a candidate said once in response to that question that he has been told he asks too many questions. I thought, pshaw, it’s good to get clarity! And then….. in the follow up, he called me almost daily with a barrage of questions, and made it clear he didn’t have some social graces or understanding of other people’s time. And I realized that this wasn’t an isolated incident but a pattern because he called it out in his interview. But others say things like “I’ve been told I seem emotionless, but I really am passionate about this cause and here’s why” and many of us in the room were thinking “where’s their passion?” and it helps us understand them better. As a young-looking woman, I answer that people perceive me as young and inexperienced, and so I am careful with how I present myself when leading meetings and trainings so it’s clear that I belong.

    5. Amber Rose*

      That I can’t be firm with people when I need to because I’m soft spoken and polite. But I can and have and will chew people out for pulling crap.

    6. Nanc*

      Because I’m tall and thin, I’m athletic! Um, no. I love a nice long walk but I’m in no way sporty and thus do not want to be on the company softball/volleyball/bowling/basketball team. Call me when there’s a sport that requires a designated klutz and I’m your woman!

    7. MuseumChick*

      Apparently, my “I’m listening face” can sometimes come off as a “why are you talking?” face.

    8. Temperance*

      People think I’m overly nice/sweet/ a pushover. While yes, I can be that way when I’m dealing with pro bono clients (elderly, homeless folks, refugees, etc.), that doesn’t mean that I’m a doormat. I will get angry and will raise my voice, and I will handle shit.

    9. Eleanor Shellstrop*

      That’s such a weird question, and I feel like it would be hard to answer without sounding kind of defensive, you know? I’ve been asked “what are three words your colleagues would use to describe you?” once or twice but this seems sort of like “what do i worry people are saying about me” and it would stress me out, lol.
      That being said, I think people tend to think that I’m very nice and sweet and somewhat of a pushover, even though I can be assertive when the situation demands it, I just pick my battles. But then again, maybe that’s an inner insecurity that I’m just projecting onto other people.
      One coworker recently told me (in a friendly, joking way) that I could sometimes be “terse” and I took it as a HUGE compliment, that’s a big step for me!

    10. Myrin*

      I would honestly love to be asked that because for a change, I can actually come up with an answer on the spot and it would also help me pre-emptively clearing something up:

      To my complete and utter surprise, I’ve had to accept that apparently, I often come across as flustered or nervous. When I first realised that this is actually a pattern I encounter somewhat regularly and in all kinds of situations and not just a one-off, I was completely gobsmacked. Reason being, I’m very, very rarely nervous. I’m a very chill person and have almost nothing that can faze me. My brain is cool, calm, and collected most of the time, so I was very taken aback when I first had to accept that apparently, yes, this is an impression people have of me.

      A weird additional factor is that I have an extremely strong pokerface (which is also a pattern people have commented on all my life but at least I’ve always been aware of that!). So people don’t get the “flustered” impression by just looking at me, quite the opposite in fact. But I think there’s something about my gestures – I talk very animatedly – and my voice – I have a loud voice, talk quite fast, and have some troubles with my vocal chords which often make my voice go pretty high – that reads as “nervous” to other people.

      So yeah, definitely a very big misconception about me I’ve yet to get to change.

      1. Close Bracket*

        I have an extremely strong pokerface

        Eye contact and facial expression are two things that are so hard to get right. Too much or too little of either really freak people out. I tend to have either weird expressions (actually a spectrum trait) or I go too far to control it and have no expression. Neither goes over well. I have no advice, just sympathy.

        1. Myrin*

          Oh no, I might have worded that strangely – I don’t have an unexpressive face per se, it’s just that I have no problem at all donning a pokerface. I’m actually pretty emotive naturally but I can also completely shut that down if I choose to.

      2. Alianora*

        I would also like this question, and for similar reasons. My facial expressions and body language often communicate something very different from what I’m actually feeling. For instance, I tend to sit at the edge of a chair and clasp my hands together, and people interpret that as me being formal/uptight/stiff, but it’s actually just the way I naturally sit if I’m not thinking about it. Or my “just about to cry” face apparently looks angry and aggressive (luckily, that hasn’t been a factor in most of my workplaces!)

        Additionally, my voice is high-pitched, not very loud, and cracks a lot which definitely makes me seem nervous even when I’m not.

    11. Close Bracket*

      People think I’m shy; nah, I’m just autistic.

      If I were asked, I would say, “People think I’m shy because I am quiet, but I actually don’t have any difficulty talking to people or contributing.”

    12. Kathenus*

      Probably that I am a very outgoing and confident person. In certain professional situations I definitely am, but in personal and social situations, and some professional ones, I am pretty introverted and can be insecure and get into my own head a lot with doubting myself.

    13. Sleepytime Tea*

      I kind of like this question. Maybe just because it’s different.

      Two things.
      1) People think I always “need to be right.” I’ve talked to a few friends about this, because the thing is, I don’t give two shits about being right. But apparently I have a tendency to say things in a very confident tone, which frankly I think sometimes works against me as a woman. Also, if someone says something and I go “Hm, I totally thought it was xyz” it get’s taken as me insisting I’m right and they’re wrong. I have seriously started working on tone and facial expression for this type of thing, and I think it’s working, because I don’t care if I’m right, I care about knowing the facts and getting to what’s right, whether it’s me or someone else!

      2) I’m bubbly and happy and professional and friendly and all of that. But I am totally an introvert. I need quiet time. I need to go home to recharge. There are days I put on my headphones and need to zone everyone out. People think because I’m friendly and all of that that I’m so extroverted, but introverted does not equal shy necessarily.

    14. Fortitude Jones*

      I’ve gotten this answer before, and I answered that some people assume I’m rigid because of how efficient I am, but I told the hiring manager that it’s not true. I’m very flexible about how to get stuff done at work, but people need to approach me with logical reasons for why we’re changing a process or procedure and the new process and/or procedure needs to be even more efficient than the original one or else I’m going to push back. The hiring manager must have found that response sufficient because she ended up offering me the job (I ultimately turned it down to accept an internal promotion at the company I was working for at the time).

      1. Fortitude Jones*

        First sentence should say, “I’ve gotten this QUESTION before” not “answer.”

  116. lapgiraffe*

    Work related TV anecdote – Does anyone watch The Good Fight? I’m a bit behind but last night watched the episode where they introduce a new character portrayed by Cheryl Hines, and the situation made me think about a million AAM letters.

    In short, the character is 1) supposed to be a high level consultant brought in to fix a Major Problem at a law firm and 2) awkwardly and inappropriately giggling in what is an otherwise serious situation and introduction with a group of law firm partners. After doing this a few times, and presumably noticing that the lawyers are noticing her abnormal behavior (and clearly having experienced this before), she very matter-of-factly states “I have PsuedoBulbar Effect, here’s a card explaining it,” whips out pre made cards that explain her condition, hands one to each partner, then continues with the business at hand.

    I know many AAM commenters writing in about sharing any medical information at work normally skew toward the “I don’t want to say anything” route, but I do love both Cheryl Hines delivery, as it seems perfect for how Alison suggests responding to colleagues without fluff and with a friendly, neutral voice, and the “just the facts” way she handles her condition – “This is what it is, this is what you need to know, and now we can all move on.” While it was (in my reading) meant to be a humorous element, I also thought it not a terrible idea for certain situations.

  117. Fey*

    I feel like I’m here every week now. I just have a lot of feelings. :P (If you know, you know.)

    Earlier this week I was contacted by the Director of Talent Acquisition from a company that rejected me – twice. First time, I made it to the second round of interviews where I met with four different people separately (one of them being the Director). Then I was told they didn’t think my qualifications were suited to the role. I’ve been in dual roles of Office Manager and full-cycle Recruiter the last few years. This was a TA Coordinator position. So on paper, I’m actually overqualified. Plus, why only decide I wasn’t qualified after getting me in for the second round? I was bummed, but I guess they found someone who was better suited. Whatever.

    One month later in December they contacted me again, They possibly had another TA Coordinator role opening up soon and asked me to meet the team for lunch. Only two people from the team made it (the Director not being one of them), and curiously the job was not at all spoken of during the lunch. We talked about family and upcoming holiday plans instead. I actually brought up the job at the end of the lunch, and all they said was it was just a possibility at the moment, and I would be contacted if the role did open up. I sent a thank you email to the person who arranged the lunch and told her to keep me posted.

    Well, the role did get posted on LinkedIn but I was never contacted. I left it alone, then out of the blue in March decided to check in anyway. Just to be 100% sure. Waiting two months was crazy, I know, but I was preoccupied. Anyhow, I was again told that my qualifications didn’t suit the role and she asked if she could contact me in the future if a role opened up that was more suited to me. I was annoyed that she’d ghosted me until I emailed her, so I didn’t bother replying and just moved on with my life.

    Cut to the email from the Director. He wrote, “While I don’t have an opportunity [here] to explore right now, I was nonetheless curious as to how you’re doing/what you’ve been up to. Any chance you’re in town next week and down for a cup of coffee [in the office], to be able to trade notes?” He’s one of my LinkedIn connections, so I think he can see I’m still unemployed. Incidentally, he was the first person from the team that I was ever in contact with. I added him on LinkedIn after applying the first time and we talked on there until someone from his team emailed me about an interview.

    I, of course, replied in the affirmative and gave my availability, and we’re meeting for coffee just before lunchtime at the end of next week. In the meantime, I’m most definitely overthinking the whole thing. His time is valuable – why does he want to meet me if he says there’s no opportunity for me? If he really just wants to know how I am, he could easily ask me via email – why does he want to see me face to face, and in the office at that? I obviously made a damn good impression, that’s why he still can’t forget me six months later – but if I made such a good impression why wasn’t I hired… TWICE?

    So…what gives? Is it normal for someone in a director position randomly asking past interviewees for coffee just to ask how they are? And before anyone starts thinking it, there are zero chances it’s more than platonic/strictly business.

    I just… I don’t want to be led on again only to be disappointed again. I plan to ask him – nicely, of course – why they found my qualifications unsuitable for the role only after the second round. I also plan to be frank about how being ghosted was no fun. I don’t know if he knew about that as he wasn’t looped into the email. I just think he might like to know what I thought about my candidate experience as the TA team at this company is all about “providing a positive candidate experience”, yada yada yada. But I’ll let him lead the conversation and I will stay polite and professional, no matter what.

    This has never happened to me before so I’d love to hear some thoughts on this. Should I even ask why I was rejected twice? What else should I say/ask, if any?

    Oh, and the job I interviewed at three weeks ago – where the VP didn’t like that I brought my iPad for my presentation even though she’d already okayed it beforehand – finally emailed me yesterday. “After a lot of consideration, we’ve decided not to move forward at this point.” Yeah, no sh#t! But get this: in the next paragraph, she had the cheek, the audacity, to say, “Regardless, I’d love to get your feedback on the overall experience through this process, and given your experience with recruiting, any suggestions you have for us.”

    For half a second I thought ‘Yeah, I’ll tell her that she might want to rein in the aggressiveness as it was really off-putting and likely to drive candidates away!’ Then other me was like, ‘Bleh, why should I try to help her? Let her go on like this so she continues to drive future candidates away! It’s not my problem!’

    What’s the better thing to do?

    1. LaDeeDa*

      Having the Director contact you and ask to meet for coffee is weird. And the lunch with people was even weirder. I don’t know if I would waste any more time on this company… it just all seems ODD. Please update us next week on what happened at the coffee.

      1. Veryanon*

        Agreed that this all just seems very weird. I don’t know why they would try to keep you warm unless there was a specific role they had in mind for you.

      2. Cheesesticks*

        I would not find it too weird unless of course it turns weird when you meet with him.

        I once got a job in a kind of weird way too. I applied for a management position. The owner wanted to interview me, told me I wasn’t qualified but wanted to meet me anyway so I went and interviewed. Of course I was not offered the position and another position he mentioned I might be suited for.
        Two months later, I get a call from the person he hired in the management position, the manager needed a “right hand” and was handed my resume and told to hire me.

    2. I See Real People*

      I think if you’re looking for a job, any input or networking is a positive step. He may just enjoy getting to know people and finding them jobs.

    3. Kathenus*

      I’ve had times where there is a candidate that I had a positive feeling about, but that wasn’t right for the position at that time, that I’ve kept on my radar. Most were internal, but I’ve had an external candidate in this category as well. So it could be that you just clicked with the director and they want to keep in touch in the hopes that a future position might work out. So hard to say from the outside, but having been in the director position in a similar situation just wanted to offer that perspective.

      On the negative interview situation, just be unfailingly professional and move on.

      1. Fey*

        Thank you for this valuable insight! He and I did have a really nice conversation during my interview. I’m really hoping that something works out eventually.

        Noted on moving on. The VP is connected to a lot of people on LinkedIn. I don’t like her but I don’t want her to have a bad opinion of my attitude.

  118. Jay Bee*

    So, due to the law change in New York regarding exempt/non-exempt employees, three members of my Events team are now hourly instead of salaried roles. This is going to be a big hit to my budget. Is anyone else dealing, or have dealt with this change, and how so?

    Also yes I know we were a bit behind the eight ball on this change, but we’ve done it now!

    1. fposte*

      It shouldn’t have to be a big hit to your budget–is there a reason why it was structured so it would be? If it’s because of OT, that can just be factored into the hourly rate.

      1. Jay Bee*

        We have a ton of events after hours. At least 7 that are on weekends and are 10 hour days. My estimate based on prospective hours was for each person this could be about $10k per person if we paid out all the overtime. Though at the moment I’m reducing time worked the next week to keep them in a 40 hour week. A $30k unexpected addition to my department budget makes a big difference at this small-ish non profit.

        One of the options was to have everyone’s salary meet the minimum to be exempt, which is $58k. So we raised one team member’s salary to that because it was only about $1k.

        Can you explain a bit more about the OT being factored into the hourly rate?

        1. fposte*

          I forgot that NY has a ton of relevant law here, including on its own minimum wage here, so I’m retracting my confident assertion.

          But basically, with somebody who’s paid $50k, that doesn’t mean you automatically get the hourly rate just by dividing $50k by 2080 hours per year and OT is on top of that; you can figure the average OT through the year and factor that into the $50k budgeted. So it’s, maybe, an hourly pay rate of $20.5 with a regular 260 hours of OT per year at $31, which gets you a little over $50k.

          Obviously there are human factors to throw in to this–I’m just putting this up as a math solution.

        2. Not Me*

          I’m confused by the “Though at the moment I’m reducing time worked the next week to keep them in a 40 hour week.” comment. Do you mean in order to not pay overtime this week you’re reducing hours next week?

          Can you split up the 10 hour days?

          The $58k minimum is not a stand alone test. Depending on whether you’re using the administrative or executive exemption there are a number of other tests that apply. Are your employees meeting all of those?

        3. Sleepytime Tea*

          So you don’t have to take their current weekly salary, divide it by 40 hours, and then make that their hourly rate. So if you want to calculate expected OT into an hourly rate it would go like this:
          Salary was $1000/week
          On average, someone works 55 hours a week
          That’s 40 regular hours and 15 OT hours
          Assuming OT hours is time and a half, 15 OT hours = 22.5 regular hours
          40 + 22.5 = 62.5
          $1000 divided by 62.5 = $16/hour

          In this scenario, if you paid them $16 an hour and they worked the expected amount of overtime, then you would hit that $1k per week salary target. You just have to work the math backwards in order to maintain their existing salary. To be fair to your employees however, you need to get a really good grasp on how many hours they have been working and calculate this accordingly so that they don’t end up making less for the same amount of work.

          1. Not Me*

            A non-exempt employee shouldn’t be working 55 hours a week on average. Adjusting their hourly wage to include expected overtime is not a good way to do business. If they don’t meet the admin or exec exemptions then they should be paid overtime appropriately. Adjusting their wage like this is not right.

            1. valentine*

              Adjusting their wage like this is not right.
              Right, especially if it does go to $16! This shouldn’t be a pay cut and how are they not going to feel it is?

              Reducing the next week’s hours to avoid paying overtime sounds like an obvious cheat the law would’ve taken into account.

    2. Mazzy*

      The last person we hired in New York was hired on an hourly wage for an early-career role. The exempt level is pretty ridiculous even for NY ($58,500 for those who don’t know). The median Manhattan wage was $72,000 just a few years ago. People think everyone there is making huge salaries, but they those are not the norm. We were upfront with our new hire that they weren’t yet at the nearly $60K point, and they agreed! When hiring, I had mid-level workers who were asking for salaries not that much higher than the new exempt level for New York, which shows me that they raised it too high.

      1. MintLavendar*

        Eh, the exempt level isn’t supposed to establish an average or median or living wage. It’s supposed to be the threshold at which the state decides that you’re making enough money that you don’t need as strenuous of labor protections. $58k seems reasonable for that for an expensive place like NYC, imo. Making $45k annually in NYC is just not that much, and a person making that *should* get time and a half if their employer is going to get more than 40 hours a week out of them.

  119. Middle management and career advancement*

    I’m curious to hear thoughts from folks on track for a role in middle management, who are currently middle managers, or who’ve been promoted beyond middle management, on how you’ve made it work for your career:

    1) Was it the only way for you to advance in your career?
    2) What skills and perspective do you need to be successful?
    3) What do you need to demonstrate (skills, competencies, etc.) to be able to advance to a more senior-level position?

    I, like many people, work in an organization where the only way to advance is to move into a middle manager role leading a team of 4-6 people. It seems like most of the middle managers spend much of their time working with HR and filling out paperwork, while individual contributors/subject matter experts (like me) often work with the senior leaders above them on interesting projects. The middle managers don’t have much input on those projects unless they’ve performed the job at some point.

    I’m currently at the highest level for my government classification and I love my current work, but I am concerned about my ability to grow long-term. I would like to lead one day, but from my perspective it seems like my supervisor and other middle managers spend a lot of time on paperwork while not getting to really dive into the interesting program/policy decisions. How do you demonstrate that you can lead on those issues, in addition to being able to lead a small team?

    1. Anonygrouse*

      I think a lot of this may vary by organization and field/sector, but here is my two cents — hope it helps! I am in a large non-profit and moved from a part SME, part PM role to middle management about 6 months ago.

      1) Not necessarily — my specific field has a lot of opportunities to develop additional technical skills and advance that way (not necessarily within my org, but definitely by looking elsewhere). In general individual contributors can earn as much or more than their less technical managers. But, if career advancement to you includes being a part of bigger picture conversations (staffing, budget, strategy, etc.), then you do need to move into management.

      2) Beyond general management stuff, being able to communicate the value of your team’s work to higher-ups who are not at all familiar with the field, and doing so without weighing them down with a lot of minutiae. When it comes to the paper-pushing aspect of management, for me it’s been important to convey that I understand why particular processes are necessary even if annoying. IME middle management is also where you can start to have input on how to improve/streamline those processes, and your ability to do that will be enhanced if other units see that you understand why they’ve wanted you to do X and Y. (I have a coworker who is very vocal about hating red tape/paperwork and one of the results has been that, when they suggest an improvement to something like onboarding or IT requests, people just go “well, Pat thinks every form is a stupid form, so the problem he identified isn’t real.”)

      3) Being able to step back from the day-to-day work and think creatively seem like the biggest factors. Asking questions about whether the structure of the unit/team makes sense (both internally and where it fits into the larger organization), contingency planning if/when their are budget shortfalls, looking for potential savings and income opportunities, etc. — those can be difficult conversations and it’s reflected well on me that I am able and willing to contribute in a productive manner.

      1. Middle management and career advancement*

        Thank you, Anonygrouse. Appreciate your thoughts on this, especially framing what one form of advancement (bigger-picture thinking) looks like. And good lesson there on Pat.

  120. Jaid*

    Coming into work on Tuesday (after the Monday holiday), it was clear that the A/C had not been turned on and I seriously considered leaving early because it was so dang hot and airless.

    Coming into work today and I’m freezing.

    Grrrrr.

    1. Rebecca*

      I’m the “warm” person in my office, if it was 68 degrees year around, I’d be happy, but it’s not – nearly everyone else is a “cold” person. So – I wear layers, keep extra clothes in the closet in my office, and normally in the summer I wear sleeveless tops and shorts (we have a very laid back environment, not customer facing, so no need to wear dressy things). I keep a neutral color short sleeve shirt, 3/4 sleeve shirt, fleece pullover, etc. and various other clothing items so if it gets too hot or too cold, I can adjust. Winter is the worst time for me. I shut the heat vents in my office, and more often than not, have to run my fan as sitting in an 80 degree office makes me want to sleep!!

    2. Ama*

      We’ve been struggling at our office because it has been cool but very humid, and when the A/C is not on the building’s system just brings air in straight from outside. So our choices are either freezing but dry or tolerable but sticky.

  121. Monstera*

    Has anyone ever had regrets about turning down a job? I got an offer on Wednesday for a position that I felt like I was a good fit for, but something didn’t feel right about the company. They were also in a windowless office, and I didn’t think I could handle that. But another part of me feels like I said no because I was afraid to make a change. It was a new sector and a new city for me.
    I have other upcoming interviews that I’m excited about, but I’m freaking out feeling like I made a bad decision turning this down. I just don’t want to make the wrong move since my current workplace is somewhat toxic.

    1. A Simple Narwhal*

      Listen to your gut, it was telling you something was off. I think you were right to listen to it.

      Also I worked in a windowless basement office for ~3 years and it SUCKED. It felt like a depressing tomb, I never saw the sun in winter, and it was just so isolating to feel like we were all trapped down there and the outside world didn’t exist.

      It sounds like you have plenty of opportunities coming your way, I think you made a smart decision.

    2. nacho*

      I never turned down a job, but I’ve talked myself out of a lot of things I might have enjoyed over the years. There’s nothing you can do anymore about the job you turned down, but try making a pro/con list for moving to future jobs, and really look closely at the cons and ask how much they’ll impact your life. Would it really be that bad to work in a windowless office, and if so, why? What exactly didn’t feel right about the company? Make sure you’re not valuing security over possible opportunities.

    3. Blue Bunny*

      I never regret going with my gut. I often regret deciding against my gut. I think you chose correctly.

    4. Susan K*

      You can never be sure how something would have turned out if you had made a different decision, so it’s always a bit of a gamble. All you can do is make the best decision you can with the information you have, and in this case, it was turning down the job. I think you should be even more confident in your decision because you didn’t allow you desire to get out of your current toxic job to push you into taking the first offer that came your way out of desperation.

    5. Trinity Beeper*

      Yes, I was in that position about two months ago. I got an offer at a company that I had admired a lot as a teenager, but upon researching more I found that they had changed in ways that I was a little unimpressed with. I was able to negotiate a promotion at my current workplace now.

      I ended up deeply stressing out about what to do. I’m still a little mixed on my decision, especially on bad days at work. But I think I made the right call. Something didn’t feel right about the other company. I actually ended up subscribing to their newsletter so I could keep up on them, which has further convinced me that I made the right decision.

    6. Sparrow*

      I’ve been in your position. There were definitely red flags with the company, but there were enough positives (perfect fit on paper, ideal next career step, good location, was not my present job!) that I was planning to ignore them. In the end, my gut was screaming at me not to take it. The night I turned it down, I had a panic attack, sure I’d made a huge mistake. The good news is that I slept on it, felt a lot more confident in my decision, dove back into my job search with increased vigor, and shortly after got another offer that turned out to be really great for me. I have no regrets. Your gut knows what it’s doing!

    7. Fortitude Jones*

      I have. Years ago, I interviewed for a brand new role in a brand new department in a well-known company in the banking industry. The hiring manager/AVP of the division was super excited about my candidacy and even though I was only the second person she interviewed, she told me she’d be contacting me as soon as she got through her first round of interviews to offer me a position on this new team (she was basically interviewing/hiring for several SME’s, of which I was one, and managers at the same time).

      Well, I also interviewed with a division in my then place of business, and it was a promotion with a 10% pay bump that was going to put me at a higher salary level than the banking position. Since I was still interested in the field I was in, and the promotion would have been my second in two and a half years, I took the promotion. I then kicked myself a month later thinking, “Did I make a mistake? Did I turn down the role for the right reason, or did I just turn it down because I was afraid to leave current employer?”

      The promotion ended up giving me the money I needed at the time, but I ended up being burned out a year and a half later and eventually left for another industry and a totally different job function. I told myself after this situation that if I was ever in the position to accept a newly created role somewhere, I would take it instead of sticking with the status quo because if I excelled, it would look amazing on my resume to be able to say that I successfully built a position from the ground up. Well, a year and a half after accepting a new job to get me out of the one I was burned out from, I accepted a newly created role at an established software company. So far, I have no complaints about what I’m doing and I think if I hadn’t done what I did nearly three years ago, I wouldn’t be where I am now. Therefore, everything worked out how it was supposed to.

  122. Argleblargle*

    Looking for suggestions on how to distangle myself from my manager’s drama filled life!

    Many years ago, I worked with this person, elsewhere, on the same level of management. We both moved on, to higher management other places (retail, if that helps). I ended up deciding the stress of store management was not for me, and moved on to lower level jobs. They offered me a few hours a week based off our past working together, and I accepted with the caveat that I REALLY only wanted two days, primarily inventory and freight.

    Things were mostly fine until the past five months, where everything has gone to hell. The details are lengthy and standard retail bs, and as a result because I felt so bad for this manager, I offered to step into a temporary management role, which is way more hours and way more customer service than I wanted and I’m haaaaating it. And now the things that were tolerable 10hrs a week are not 40hrs a week.

    Their personal life is overflowing with drama and poorly timed misfortunes and everyone leaning on them, plus they’re getting a lot of pressure from higher ups, plus the general pressures of running a store with staffing issues and frequent floor changes/corporate upheaval passed down. Having been in that position myself, I have so much sympathy and want to help out as much as possible so they don’t just fall over dead from stress one day! But I don’t want to stress myself out that much either, and hearing, every single day, about what new disaster in their home or work life has happened, while holding my tongue, is driving me over the edge.

    I know it’s my own fault, for offering to help/allowing myself to get caught up/not saying no, and for letting our previously equal relationship seep into this current unequal relationship, but I’m struggling to step back and distangle myself as either an employee or a friend. Mentally, how do I disengage? In the moment, how can I turn the tide from ‘your partner/child/corporate/employee/etc is the WORST’ to something else? I realize too the more either of us talk about a drama thing, the more worked up we are about the thing, so it’s not helping!

    1. fposte*

      Let me ask a different question: do you *want* to work 40 hours there? Feeling bad for somebody isn’t a reason to go down with the ship. You could change that if you wanted, and that might be the simplest thing.

      In the meantime, there are a couple of different approaches–the first is to say “I’ve decided I really need to do less personal stuff and focus on work at work with the new schedule–thanks for understanding” when she moves into vent mode. The other is to go for the “What do you think you’ll do about that?” response to change it from a vent to a plan and to cue that you’re not down for repeat aimless venting.

      1. valentine*

        She hired you for free, gross therapy. If you have to work with her either way, leave. If not, dial back to inventory/freight.

    2. Kathenus*

      If you decide that you don’t want to do the 40 hours, you could give your friend a bit of notice to find another solution to be kind, but then be firm that as of x date you can only work 10 hours a day.

  123. GroomingCoordinator*

    I need advice on asking for a new title while organizational change is happening.

    I was given an unexpected raise about two weeks ago because what started as a minor individual contributor role (Llama Grooming Coordinator) has turned into a much more complex one due to company growth (ex. training multiple new LGCs, training an offshore LGC team, process improvements, workflow planning, etc.) I had been preparing to ask for a raise, so when I received an amazing raise unprompted, I was extremely grateful. I was commended during the meeting for stepping up to the plate and acting in a supervisory capacity. I asked if I would also receive a title change to reflect my increased responsibilities, but was told that would not be happening, and that was a “discussion for another time.” Though I was initially bummed, I was just grateful for the raise and didn’t think too much of it.

    This week, my boss (Director of Llama Grooming) was fired and his counterpart, the Director of Llama Bathing, was promoted to Head of Llama Services, combining Grooming & Bathing into one department. All of Grooming now reports to the HLS. Though the new HLS is really great, he still has a lack of knowledge in the Grooming arena, and I am the subject matter expert that has to bring him up to speed. I’m now itching for a new title to reflect all of this additional work.

    How long should I wait for the dust to settle before inquiring about a title change? Should I trust that the people who gave me a raise out of the blue will give me a title change out of the blue as well? Should I talk to the HLS about it?

    1. LaDeeDa*

      Don’t trust someone will do it for you! If you have your old job description show him what you used to do under that title, and then if no job description exists for your current title- you create one in the same format. If none exist for either position, create them. This gives him pure facts on the changes. Good luck!

  124. nacho*

    What are the rules for taking potluck items home at the end of your shift? Do you take whatever’s left from what you brought when you go home, or do you leave it for overlapping shifts that started half way through yours?

    1. LadyByTheLake*

      Usually you take it home. That’s particularly true if it is something that is in your own dish or its something that isn’t going to keep. Leaving it would be the exception, not the rule.

    2. A Simple Narwhal*

      If it’s in a disposable tray I’d say leave it, if it’s in a container you need back I think you can take it at the end of your shift. But maybe transfer the items to a different container to leave behind and take your container home if it’s an option.

    3. Policy Wonk*

      Every office is different. At my current office we tend to have events like potlucks mid-week to allow more people to participate, and pretty much everyone leaves leftovers in the office fridge to be put out at lunchtime the next day. Since you mention overlapping shifts, I’d leave the food for them, though whether in the fridge or out in the open would depend on whether someone can be relied on to put it away overnight. When the potluck is on a Friday everyone takes their own left-overs home* as there isn’t much that would still be edible on Monday. (*with the corollary that leftovers are often offered to interns to take home first.)

    4. BrightLights*

      If you want to avoid taking home food, send out an email at the end of the potluck saying that food will be available in the break room until [time you leave]. Around here, that generally serves as a call to the locusts!

      – a locust

    5. londonedit*

      Can I just be totally unhelpful and say that I find all the discussion of potlucks on this site endlessly fascinating, because potlucks are totally not a thing where I’m from, I’ve never been to one, and they seem to cause so many etiquette issues and so much drama!

    7. The Man, Becky Lynch*

      There’s no hard and fast rule.

      If it’s a dish you want to take home and finish off yourself, do that! You already shared and why just “hope” someone in the later shift finishes it before it goes to waste? Or if you don’t care and can give the night crew a chance and wouldn’t mind having it for breakfast/lunch the next day, do that! I usually leave it until the next day and then take it home if there’s any left so that it doesn’t go to waste. Or if it’s not required to be refrigerated, I’ll leave it in the common area for people to pick over until it’s to that “If it’s not finished now, it’s dead to all.” stage and then swoop in and finish it off.

      The whole point is just wait until at least the end of your day. Then the leftovers are for you to decide. You can look at what others tend to do and try that.

      If it’s something in the refrigerator, I put up a reminder on the bulletin board so that people who feel hungry know that it’s still in there until further notice [but we’re small and therefore this works great, an email of course is great too if that’s an option.]

  125. De Minimis*

    I know some of you were wanting an update on my situation from last week, where my manager gave me some negative feedback and used language such as “last warning.” I think this past week has gone better, I’ve worked to correct some of the things that were sticking points, and we’re about to do some training on tasks that are more in line with what I was expecting when I took this position.
    But the whole thing has really put a damper on my initial enthusiasm about this role, which I had thought was going to be a great opportunity for professional growth, which I’ve really needed. Now I’m not so sure, and I feel like there’s always going to be this sword of Damocles over my head while I’m here. I’m wondering if this is just going to be another stop in a series of relatively short stays, and if so, what’s next. I’m still determined to try to make it work as long as I can, though I don’t know if things will ever be as good as they could have been, and I don’t think I’m going to be here long-term, which is something I had really believed when I first started. I can work with a manager even if we aren’t that compatible, but it really rubbed me the wrong way the way she escalated things when giving feedback. I still wouldn’t be surprised if they ended up decided it wasn’t working out.

    On the other hand, I’ve been anxious and have been expected to be fired at jobs where things ended up going okay, so that may be the case here.

  126. Epsilon Delta*

    I referred an old coworker to a job opening at my company a few weeks ago. He didn’t get the job and wasn’t sure why (he thought the interview went well). He’s been job searching for some time now and it sounds like his experience has been pretty similar at other companies. He’s getting interviews but no job offers.

    I happened to talk to one of the people who interviewed him, and she said that his technical and professional skills were a great fit, but they decided not to hire him because he complained about his former and current bosses. A lot. I wasn’t too surprised to hear that (he is a bit of a complainer), but I was surprised he did it in an interview!

    Should I tell him why he didn’t get the job at my company? It’s a behavior that he should be able to change pretty easily, and it’s something that I would want to know if I was him. I’m hesitating because I’m not entirely sure how he’ll take it. I’m worried he might get a little defensive. I’m also not sure if it’s ok for me to share this info.

    I have an email drafted saying that I talked to some of the people he interviewed with and asking if he would like to know their feedback. If he says yes I’ll basically say what I said above – they thought he was a good fit for the job but were turned off by how negatively he talked about his previous managers.

    1. fposte*

      I wouldn’t unless he asked. And frankly, I wouldn’t do it in email at all unless I had permission from the interviewers.

    2. LaDeeDa*

      They really shouldn’t have talked to you about a candidate, but they did… and I would tell him. Sometimes when we are in or were in a really toxic environment we still feel so much anxiety and negativity around it if we aren’t conscious about it, it easily comes out.

    3. A Simple Narwhal*

      It couldn’t hurt also to ask the person who shared that information if it’s ok to share it with your friend, or ask if they’d like to provide it to your friend themselves.

      If they say you’re free to share then I think your approach is a good idea. Ask if he wants feedback and then provide it if he says yes.

    4. animaniactoo*

      Talk to the people who interviewed him first: “Would you mind if I shared that feedback with him?”

      They talked to you with an understanding that you had an interest for yourself, and recognized that as legitimate. They may not be comfortable with you sharing it with him, so double check that before you do anything else.

    5. Epsilon Delta*

      Thanks everyone. It sounds like this could potentially be a landmine in a couple different ways so I’ll just keep it to myself.

    6. The Man, Becky Lynch*

      He should know better, that’s basic interviewing 101! If anything, I would tell him that you’re sorry that he’s struggling and to perhaps ask for feedback from his interviewers to see if they’re willing to give that information ot him! Or point him in the direction of interviewing tips, that way it’s not you giving information that’s not yours to share and not totally saying “Aw too bad so sad sorry for your luck!”

    7. Anono-me*

      Unless you have the blessing of the person who told you about your friend’s interview problems I would not share any information.

      However, it may be helpful to do a mock interview; and pick up on the fact that he seems to be complaining a bit too much about previous employers.

  127. Teacher in Need of Help With Bigoted Parents*

    I have been teaching for 3 years and I’m relatively young (late 20s). This year, I had a student who announced they* were bigender and fluidgender and explained this meant they would prefer to be called by a male name and pronouns on one day and the next day, could feel more female and thus had a female name and female pronouns. I respected this, as did my class, and the student would come in each day and let us know what name and pronouns they preferred.
    However, today I was called into my department chair’s office and told that I needed to stop “this farce” and that “students had complained” and that the student in question was definitely female and the department chair knew this student and their parents. DC said the parents were “aghast at the nonsense their daughter was spouting” and that I was “encouraging this attention seeking behavior.”
    I was given a formal written directive to stop allowing the student to “choose their name and pronouns daily.”
    I don’t know what to do. I’m in a non-union state.

    *using “they” because it’s gender neutral

    1. NoteCards*

      If you’re in the US, your school taking this stance is actually a violation of Title IX and a REALLY BIG DEAL.

      1. Dragoning*

        I agree–I’d like to throw this one to the ACLU to chew on because they will have some Opinions.

        But this might lose Teacher their job in the meantime/anyway, so I’m hesitant to fully endorse it even though I desperately want to.

    2. NotAPirate*

      Keep the letter of the law but ignore the spirit? Use they/them or the Xer pronouns and a name that fits both genders (Aaron/Erin style or a gender neutral name). Same name and pronouns daily but accepts the student as who they are.

      That poor student. What jerks for parents.

      1. Dragoning*

        Unfortunately, this does not accept the student as they are. They don’t use they pronouns, not really–they alternate pronouns, and that is not remotely the same thing.

    3. Kesnit*

      This is assuming you are in the USA…

      Is it just names/pronouns, or is this student switching bathrooms and locker rooms? (Although the USSC has made ruling supporting use of facilities that match gender identity, those holdings assume a fixed identity.) Have other teachers been given the same speech and write-up? Did the DC say which students (or how many) had complained?

      1. Teacher in Need of Help With Bigoted Parents*

        No, they use the female restrooms by choice.
        Other teachers did not “allow” this student to use preferred names/pronouns. Apparently I am the only one they asked to do this with.

        1. Dragoning*

          I would take that to heart–it means this student trusts you. It’s going to hurt so much to have that taken away from them.

        2. NoteCards*

          Again, if you’re in the US, this is flat out illegal with a slim possibility of exception if you work for a private institution that is run by a religious group. The fact that you have written documentation of this request is good (and stupid on their part).

          Do you feel you can come back to your department chair and say, this request is actually a violation of our student’s title ix rights and can get the school in serious trouble, I’m sure we don’t want that!

        3. Close Bracket*

          There is a perfect solution, which is that everybody uses pronouns based on presentation for this student. Since the perfect solution isn’t achievable, I think you have to look for the imperfect solution. Can you still use their desired names and pronouns without enforcing that on the class? Will that get back to the chair? Can you use their names and pronouns outside of class hours while sticking with one name/pronoun during class?

          This kid trusts you, so they deserve to know what is going on and know why you are changing your behavior. Have a heart to heart about what a shitty place the world is to people who don’t fit in and that even allies are forced to conform. Tell them that you respect their gender, and ask them if they have any thoughts on how to be an ally given the situation. You want to walk a fine line there between asking them their preference and asking them to solve the problem. They are a teenager, after all.

    4. animaniactoo*

      I propose sitting down with your student and them maybe your class together if they’re comfortable with it and talking about what’s happened. They’re all going to come across this again in their lives and need to make strategic choices about it.

      So start with:
      1) What it will mean for you as a teacher to push back on it. All the potential consequences that can happen to you, from additional discipline to killing future job prospects/growth to being fired.
      2) What do they know or think of the person above your department chair? What’s your own impression? Is this somebody who would support or reject an appeal for help?
      3) What laws are in place or not in place to protect the gender-fluid person and anyone who acknowledges their fluidity?
      4) What are you able to risk?

      Ultimately, this may come to being able to say to the student that you support them in their fight and they can always come talk to you (if you’re up for that), but that you can’t continue to switch pronouns because you can’t afford to be fired. But encourage them to fight on their own behalf for the right to be called by the appropriate gender of the moment by taking the fight higher up the authority chain. Organizing and gathering support among their classmates and so on. Probably you can get away with not disciplining or correcting classmates who DO choose to use the requested pronouns. On the basis that as long as it is not interfering with class learning and everyone is making their own choice and no one is being bullied about it, it would be an overreach of your authority to interfere with how they are managing their own relationships with each other.

      If you feel willing to do more and push this further up the chain, with whatever attendant risks come with that, you should be clear with the student about that – just so that they know they have the support at the moment and will not be feeling like it comes out of left field if things change or have reached the limit of how far you’re willing to risk stuff yourself, or are fired and they then need to deal with whatever new person/stuff will be in place.

      Overall, your stance to everyone is that you are not encouraging but accepting the student’s choices about themselves, the same as you would accept them showing up wearing goth clothing or a cheerleading outfit every day. As long as they’re not interfering with class learning, your role is not to manage who they are and how they express themselves on a personal front. You defend their right to do that in your classroom as a matter of NOT managing it, because it is not your place to do so.

      1. animaniactoo*

        Whoops, left off 5.

        5) What can the student / class do on their own behalves about this?

      2. Reba*

        I agree with being frank with your student(s) BUT I don’t think you should discuss your professional consequences right off the bat, if at all! I think that’s putting an unfair burden on the student (like, they would feel pressured to recloset/give up so they don’t “get you fired”). I hope that makes sense.

        Teacher in Need, your school and chair are very much in the wrong here. Please reach out to ACLU chapter and/or Lambda Legal for more advice before you proceed.

        1. animaniactoo*

          Not that they should give up – but if Teacher needs to not themselves follow the gender pronoun of the moment, so that student understands why they’re not doing it themselves. As part of a discussion of what help they can provide and (yes, encouragement!) for the student not to give up, because *the student* and *the class* have different options than the teacher does.

          Because otherwise, if Teacher’s situation means that they *can’t* take the risk to use the pronouns themselves, or help pursue it up the chain of authority themselves, not laying out the reasons for not doing so is a different kind of “just give up” indicator. In that situation where all options are sucky, it is generally better to be open about why the help is not forthcoming rather than “just didn’t think it was a big deal, didn’t care enough to do it” being a possible impression.

      3. I need a vacation*

        Please don’t bring up with the kid that this could have professional repercussions for you. Please don’t.

    5. MuseumChick*

      Lots of good advice here so Imma give you passive aggressive advice.

      Cheerfully agree with your DC that you will stop letting your students choose their pronouns. The make an announcement in your class about that has happened, that they will no longer be allowed to choose their pronouns. To avoid any trouble in the future only gender neutral pronouns will now be permitted in your class room ( zie, zim, zir, zis, zieself). You will be following your DC’s instructions perfectly!

    6. Lighthouse*

      I’ll be the dissenter because I’ve known too many kids who would love to game the system and cause chaos with exactly this type of stunt. I do try to embrace inclusivity. If someone feels they are not as their bio gender indicates, find a way to address in a way that gives comfort. But changing DAILY? No, that’s way too much to ask.

      A compromise could be reached if there’s a true issue (and student isn’t gaming you). For instance, going with neutral pronouns and name. We all have situations where things aren’t exactly configured the way we might want. It’s part of life. But making an entire classroom adjust every single day? That’s distracting and unfair to the class.

      Maybe the parents are bigoted. Perhaps they just know their kid.

      1. Lighthouse*

        Oops, typo. Maybe the parents are NOT bigoted. Perhaps they just know their kid.

      2. animaniactoo*

        Eh. It’s only disruptive if there are lots of corrections happening for getting it wrong. Otherwise, it’s more likely to be taken as NBD.

      3. I need a vacation*

        Maybe the parents are bigoted. Perhaps they just know their kid.

        I’m going to speak the advocate for the devil here and say those parents bring it up with their kid in that situation. They do not bring the school administration into it and make it the teacher’s fault.

        You don’t say not to do thing just because it might cause chaos. Is it actually causing chaos? Doesn’t seem to be effecting the class environment at all, it’s just an issue at the higher level because adults don’t like it.

        And, yes, genderfluidity is actually a thing. But unlike other situations later in life where people can select where they are and choose jobs and communities, when you’re in school, you’re kinda stuck there. This kid is probably not in a situation where they can pick a school that’s supportive of them. It is therefore REQUIRED that the school be supportive of them. The kid can’t just quit and find a new school.

        1. I need a vacation*

          Also, “We all have situations where things aren’t exactly configured the way we might want. “??? Nothing is “configured” here. This isn’t some bridge made out of concrete that you’d prefer was made out of metal but too bad so sad. This is how human beings treat another human being. Nothing is set in stone and nothing is “configured” in any way that cannot easily be changed by humans deciding not to be bigots.

      4. Close Bracket*

        But changing DAILY? No, that’s way too much to ask.

        Why? It’s uncommon to switch presentation daily, but people do it. Is it so awful to use “she” is the person is presenting female and “he” if presenting male?

        We all have situations where things aren’t exactly configured the way we might want. It’s part of life.

        Like situations where you might be asked to switch pronouns frequently? Is that an example of a thing that isn’t exactly configured the way you might want? Look, it costs you nothing to switch pronouns, and it means everything to this student.

      5. Tinker*

        Hmm.

        Well, if the kid’s goal was to cause chaos then it must have been very disappointing to them when their teacher and classmates accommodated them respectfully instead. I’m glad the administrator and parents helped them out by throwing a gigantic drama over the thing. Teamwork makes the dream work!

      6. Alianora*

        I don’t understand. How is this “gaming the system”? What does the student gain out of requesting this, if they actually identify as female?

      7. Call Me Mx.*

        I’m trans and a teacher.
        I find this “daily change” to be a bit much. While genderfluid a thing, it is not like a “switch” that goes on and off or male and female. I empathize with the student who may be trying to navigate their own gender/sexuality, but at the same time, I also know teens. And, I know that teens sometimes do things to get attention, especially from their peers. If everyone is waiting for this student to announce their name/pronoun of the day, that’s kind of disruptive to the classroom, IMHO. It’s also bringing a lot of attention to themselves in ways that most people would not want.
        I really, really wish these teens would find some information about themselves on places that aren’t Tumblr. Unfortunately, I can’t be everyone’s trans-auntie…

        1. valentine*

          I find this “daily change” to be a bit much.
          Why do you get impose this?

          While genderfluid a thing, it is not like a “switch” that goes on and off or male and female.
          No one has said that, but so what if they did? Why do you get to define it or deem it invalid? There are people whose pronouns change from day to day. So? Why does that hurt you? Why do you need to draw a line there?

          And, I know that teens sometimes do things to get attention, especially from their peers.
          If so, no one’s hurt by giving them this attention and the student’s needs are met.

          If everyone is waiting for this student to announce their name/pronoun of the day, that’s kind of disruptive to the classroom
          Not at all. Maybe they have to wear a different uniform each day or use a different color ink and that’s announced, too. Same amount of time. Didn’t people say girls wearing trousers or this, that, or the other would be disruptive or distracting? And they still do. They’re wrong. And so is discriminating against this child.

          Teacher, this is worth fighting as strenuously as possible. Call the ACLU and your area’s Title IX coordinator.

        2. jolene*

          I entirely agree. Apart from anything else, it’s horribly old-fashioned in its stereotypes of gender. There’s no need for this level of attention-seeking and disruption. As the old headmistress of my school famously used to say, multiply the results…

    7. teach*

      I’m a teacher and have been an advocate for a student’s transition (wanna know how many layers of Google G Suite for Ed you need to dig down to get a new user name to show up everywhere?) but I’ve also been told that the law in my state is that parents trump all. If parents contact admin, we can change all verbal and digital communication except for State reporting, which needs a birth certificate. However, if parents contact admin and tell us we cannot use the student’s requested new name / gender, we cannot.
      Note that this is parent decision, not admin.
      I believe this reading of law is accurate, because in general our admin team is very much allied with actions that help all students feeling safe and known.
      When I had a kiddo who had parents who did not permit name/gender changes, they were okay with they/them pronouns and a nickname.

  128. NoteCards*

    How do you support a friend who working in a toxic job?

    We work in the same place, but completely different departments and their job is just soul crushing due to management or lack thereof to the point it’s affecting their physical and mental health. How can I best support them? I think what I’m doing now (encouraging them to leave) is just stressing them out more.

    1. NotAPirate*

      Try asking your friend what support she wants from you. Some people love working through what should you say in reply to boss type things. Some people need or prefer the advice to leave and oh i saw this job posting comments. Some people just want you to be outraged with them. Some people just want some one to bear witness to the crazy they experienced. Just straight up say something like: Hey i know work is terrible right now, how can i be supportive? Do you want advice on job hunt or would you prefer we just get ice cream and rank the craziest things that happened this week?

  129. Kesnit*

    After 10 years of professional work, I decided to make a drastic career change. (Think explosives management to IT.) I went back to school, and after a few years of trying, found a job in my new field. After about 18 months in that job, however, I decided I wanted to change areas of specialization (think teapot imports to teapot rehabilitation). I had focused on rehabilitation in school, had done a little rehabilitation in my previous job, and there were carryovers from imports to rehabilitation, but in many respects, this was a new path.

    When I was first hired, another new rehabilitator (who had no previous professional experience, teapots or otherwise) was hired at the same time. (Let’s call her Barbara.) Since Barbara was so new, the senior rehabilitators spent much of their time training her. My training was given to a guy (Sam) who has been doing the job well over a decade, but is not as client-focused as I am. (We’re in a very client-focused field.) I learned the procedures from Sam, but did not feel comfortable using his style, and started developing my own.

    Barbara left about a year ago, and we finally hired a replacement (Daniel) last December. Daniel has teapot experience, but not in anything like rehabilitation.

    I just passed 2 years in my job. My reviews have been good. However yesterday, the head of our office called me in and told me he can see I’m struggling and that he has started getting more client complaints about me. When I asked about specific issues, my boss could not give me any. So he is pairing me with two other rehabilitators to help me get back on track and removing my responsibility for training Daniel. (Most of my projects with him have finished up anyway.) I have no issue with this in general, and the two he is pairing me with are the ones I was going to for help.

    However, I feel like I am being punished for being the victim of bad timing. It is no secret that I was left largely on my own when I started because everyone was focused on helping Barbara. (The second in command in the office told me as much.) I have not gotten a lot of feedback, and what I have gotten I’ve taken to heart and worked on. (The major issue is a matter of comfort – as I gain more experience, I’ll get more comfortable and be better. I would also add that Sam does almost the same thing.) When Barbara left, we all had to pick up the slack, and that continued after hiring Daniel because he has to be trained. Now I feel like a failure because suddenly I’m being told I should have fixed everything some time in the past two years, without even knowing what to fix.

    1. Dragoning*

      This doesn’t really feel like punishment to me. This feels like finally getting around to fixing a problem they caused.

        1. Kesnit*

          It was the way my boss approached it, the tone he used, and his reference to client complaints. It’s hard to explain without being able to convey the tone he used

    2. fposte*

      It’s always hard to hear that you weren’t performing the way you thought, and I agree that they should have been more communicative about your performance in the past two years. But it can be not your fault and still need fixing, and it sounds like they’re committing to working with you to get you on the track they’d like; that’s a statement of confidence in your potential and your value.

    3. WellRed*

      Before this happened, did you feel like you were struggling or did you feel you had a handle on it and now, out the blue, your managers are telling you otherwise? I am side eyeing the boss not being able to give you specifics, however.

      1. Kesnit*

        For the most part, I felt like I had a handle on it. I had a rough period in my personal life last December-January that caused me to struggle some, but I resolved that by February.

        One of my current projects has blown up beyond what anyone imagined, through no fault of mine. (The second in command commented today that this project is one of the strangest he has ever seen.) I suspect that this project is the one that led to me getting paired up, as everyone thinks this is an insane situation.

        Yeah, my boss not being able to give me specific examples bothered me. I’m happy to work on problems, but I need to know what they are! Client complaints are a part of this job, and sometimes we just can’t make people happy.

  130. Dazed and confused*

    I am an American-born, non-Jewish person working for a Jewish agency. On my immediate team, most of my coworkers are Jewish and from the former soviet union, and we speak Russian together at lunch. Two of my coworkers relatively frequently make what I consider to be islamaphobic statements – stuff about how all Muslims are terrorist, have no respect for the sanctity of life, are “invading” European countries such as Germany, etc. When I object to these statements, they tell me that I don’t understand because I’m not Jewish and tell me in great detail the ways in which they were discriminated against as Jews in their former home countries. (I think the point is that because they were discriminated against, they are not capable of discriminating?) My other coworkers don’t make these kinds of comments, but also don’t say anything about it.

    Two questions:
    1. Was I wrong to speak up, even as a non-Jewish person?
    2. I am leaving this job soon, thank goodness. Should I talk about this issue in an exit interview? My coworkers would likely know complaints came from me, which is why I haven’t escalated the matter before and am worried about it now. Plus they are all convinced I am overreacting, so I’m really doubting myself now.

    1. Dazed and confused*

      (The coworkers would know the complaints came from me because anyone else who overheard would have to speak Russian, which few people outside our team do.)

    4. WellRed*

      What they are doing is not OK. Are you in Russia? I feel like, in America, most of us know people who are Jewish and impacted by the holocaust. Those survivors are often the first to speak out against lumping people under an umbrella of evil.

      1. Dazed and confused*

        We are in the US, and almost all of my coworkers, including the two who make these comments, have family who died during the holocaust.

    5. nacho*

      I’ve had the same experience with older Jews. My grandparents are the nicest people you’d ever meet, super philanthropic with their money, and feel like Palestine should welcome Israel as their liberators/the Muslims are trying to take over the country by out-breeding us is proper dinner conversation.

      You definitely weren’t wrong to speak up in the moment, and I think it’s a good idea to bring it up in the exit interview because they do in case they’re not already aware of it, because this could cause a lot of drama if it’s overheard by a Russian speaking Muslim. That said, be prepared to be brushed off as being oversensitive depending on how unhealthy the workplace is.

    6. Greengirl*

      I used to work as a non-Jewish person at a Jewish agency. You are absolutely right to speak up. Discrimination is discrimination. I’ve heard racist microaggressions from older Jewish people where I used to work. Just because you faced one form of discrimination doesn’t mean that you aren’t going to turn around and discriminate against someone else.

      You could also say that ” I have friends who are Muslim so I speak up for them as well when people are saying things that are objectively not true about their religion. I do the same thing when people say things that are anti-semitic around me as well, even though I am a non-Jew. ”

      You should bring this up in the exit interview. Saying things like “all religious group are terrorist” and frequently making islamophobic comments gets into “hostile work environment” territory even if the comments are in Russian. Even if it’s a Jewish agency, I bet they still are an EEOC employer.

      1. Greengirl*

        Also, there are plenty of people who are Jewish who are not Islamophobic. Your coworkers are behaving poorly.

      2. Greengirl*

        Also, if they honestly thought saying these kinds of things were okay, I bet they would be saying them in the language everyone else understood as well, not just in Russian.

        1. Dragoning*

          Well, it does sound like they’re speaking their native language and that just about everyone there understands them fine.

        2. Lucky*

          Interesting observation. I wonder if the comments would continue if Dazed and Confused repeated them out loud in English like “Danya, I don’t think I heard you correctly. It sounds like you said that all Muslims are terrorists invading Europe? Is that what you said?”

    7. RussianInTexas*

      Speak up. But know that these people won’t change. They are my parents friends, and their parents, and so on. They will never change.

      1. WS*

        You don’t need to actually change them, though. You just need them to not express derogatory statements in the workplace.

    8. The Man, Becky Lynch*

      There is a great amount of people who play the “I’m not bigoted because I simply cannot be given “history”, etc”.

      It’s not true. My brother grew up with a close friend who used to joke about how “I can’t be racist! I’m Japanese!” and then would cackle when people would go along with him and nod “Ooooh yeah right of course you can’t!” Then he’d launch into talking about how racist his family was and how much he hated it, etc.

      You’re not wrong for speaking up. You’re not wrong for bringing it up in an exit interview. They’d still be held accountable if they hired an Islamic person and they experienced this discrimination. The laws don’t play the “Oh well your people were persecuted by theirs, so yeah you are a-okay to continue doing what you’re doing!”. That’s not how it works.

      They won’t change. They’ll be outraged if they’re ever held accountable for their discrimination but you know, such is life of that mentality.

  131. Lucette Kensack*

    I think I’ve posted about this before, but I still haven’t figured it out so I’ll try again.

    I’ve been at my current workplace for 4.5 years. In that time, I’ve had two formal promotions, and several role changes that didn’t line up with the timing of the promotions. I can’t figure out how to list all this on my resume. Essentially, my promotions have lagged the actual changes in my responsibilities so much that it’s complicated to break out my accomplishments role by role.

    My (anonymized) titles have been:

    Teapot Spout Associate (March 2015 – September 2017)
    Teapot Developer (September 2017 – May 2019)
    Teapot Manager (May 2019 – onward)

    But I stopped working on spouts in September 2016 (and started doing Teapot Developer work at that point), although my title remained focused on Teapot Spouts for a year after that. I actually came back and started working on spouts again after my title changed away from that. And I started doing Teapot Manager work in February 2018. (It may not be clear from these fake titles, but these are pretty distinct jobs — it’s not that I’m now managing people with my previous titles — I’ve been working in different roles on different programs, and my real titles have been crafted to be sort of vague because of internal politics.)

    Should I just list it in one big chunk? Like so:

    Teapots, Inc (March 2015 – present)
    Teapot Manager (May 2019 – present)
    Teapot Developer (September 2017 – May 2019)
    Teapot Spout Associate (March 2015 – September 2017)
    – Accomplishment
    – Accomplishment
    -Accomplishment

    1. Donkey Hotey*

      I’ve been in a similar position at my former employer.
      I did very similar to your chunk suggestion but included accomplishments under each of the titles rather than one big accomplishment list.
      Llamas, Inc (2003-2017)
      Llama Compliance (2014-2017)
      – Accomplishments
      Llama Data Maintenance (2009-2014)
      – Accomplishments
      Llama Production (2003-2009)
      – Accomplishments
      That way, you can show some of the responsibility changes in the accomplishments.
      Heads up: it can throw off resume scanners who can’t find the company to match the title

  132. KR*

    I am really struggling with school right now. I know I just need to buckle down and do the work but it just seems so impossible. I think a lot of this is perfectionism and I need to remember that imperfect work that I don’t feel great about it it’s better than no work at all.

    1. WellRed*

      Thta’s hard mindset to let go of. I did very well in school, but now, 20 years later, when friends stress about imperfect grades, I think, “What’s the big deal (there’s no scholarships or anything riding on anything)?” Outside of academia, employers won’t care that you got a B instead of an A. But again, it’s been 20 years for me.

      1. KR*

        Thank you. You’re right. Thank you all commenters for the internet kick in the butt.

      2. Lena Clare*

        I totally get where you’re coming from! I found the Unf*ck your Habitat blog quite nice for getting out of the perfectionist state of mind. Maybe it’ll help you? 20 minutes of study/ work, followed by 10 minute break.

    2. 1234*

      Have you talked to your advisor or counselor about this? Maybe they can give you some tools and resources to help you navigate this time. Also maybe consider setting small goals for yourself each week to help yourself feel like things are more manageable.

      1. KR*

        I think the issue is just me, though my college advisor has been in touch. Thank you for the help. I do need to start setting small goals instead of just trying to do everything at once.

    3. Reba*

      You know what they say…. “C’s get degrees!” Finished is much, much better than perfect!

      That said, I totally feel you on perfectionism. I recently looked back on papers I wrote early in my grad school days that at the time I felt were borderline-embarrassing, never see the light of day works. But like, they are fine! Good, even! I guess this is to say that perspective changes things. You won’t always be as close to these tasks, topics, and feelings as you are now.

      Good luck, you can get through it!

    4. No Name Yet*

      One of the things that helped me make it through school: “done is better than good.” When I kept that in mind, would I be submitting things that were objectively terrible? No, though my perfectionism tried to tell me they were. Would I actually be able to FINISH things, so I could turn them in and get credit/move forward? YUP.

    5. Argh!*

      You’ve probably heard this before, but here goes:

      Don’t let the perfect be the enemy of the good. (or good enough)

    6. ..Kat..*

      I was a perfectionist as an undergraduate. In hindsight, I wish that I has done more extracurricular stuff – which I would have had time for if I had not been wasting time trying to be perfect.

  133. Sassy*

    I’m working on updating my resume. I’m a project manager looking for another role in project management. However, my current title is program manager. My team isn’t even a program team… I’m pretty much just a project manager (even though I do similar work that program managers do). Similarly, my last job title was producer. Producer is pretty similar to project manager, but I would prefer to have the PM job title because employers don’t always know that. Is it dishonest to change my job titles to Project Manager on my resume?

    1. Just Elle*

      I am a Project Manager too and my company has super weird names for things. On my resume I list “Common Name (Work Specific Name).” For instance “Project Manager (Llama industry, tail grooming area, Scissor Sharpening Team Lead (SSTL)).” (Yes, my real job title is that horrifying).

      You can also just list the common name, and then when the time comes to get references checked say “hey just so you know, at xyz company the official role was titled X.” Honestly people care way more about the bullet points describing what you did than they do about the semantics of a name.

    2. Sleepytime Tea*

      I have had some truly ridiculous job titles in the past and I had an HR recruiter straight up tell me to change them on my resume because they meant absolutely nothing. (Dedicated Care Representative III = Business Account Analyst, ugh.) So yes, put the common name that is appropriate for your job title as long as it’s honest, and then put in parentheses whatever it is that was your company specific job title. That way no one could read it and then come say that you “lied” on your resume or anything, because it’s there, but you’ve also accurately reflected your experience and job duties.

  134. Tic Tac Toe*

    I’ve been out of work due to my child’s health issue (autism) for 10 years, but, I did manage to eek out a BA, online.

    Now that my child is in a good school with a wonderful autism program I’m planning to go back to work.

    I’m worried about three things, #1 the big gap in my work history, #2 re-acclimating to working again, and #3 outdated references.

    I do volunteer at church, but I’m not sure I can count that as a reference.

    Any help would be appreciated

    1. Temperance*

      Can you find some volunteer work relating to the BA you recently earned? Can you join some networking groups relating to your chosen field?

      You can use the church as a reference.

      1. Tic Tac Toe*

        Unfortunately internships are few and far between in my field (political anthropology) and in my current home state.

    2. MuseumChick*

      The references I think will be you biggest problem. People generally understand leaving the work force to raise kids. See who you are able to find from 10 years ago who would be willing to be a reference for you. It doesn’t hurt to ask.

      Temperance’s advice is good. You may also have to start out at a very entry level/low end position to build those references up.

      1. Tic Tac Toe*

        I held a low level government job before my child was diagnosed with autism, but my old supervisor retired and HR would only confirm my employment and dates I was employed.

        1. Natalie*

          You might see if you can find the old supervisor on LinkedIn or Facebook or something – it’s perfectly normal for supervisors to move on from the particular company you shared, but still be references.

    3. Just Elle*

      There might be a potential to intern for a few months or get a temp job to ease the transition? But, honestly, career pauses are very normal. Just make sure to include a line explaining why. Even 10 year old work history could be relevant to your abilities as a professional.

      1. Tic Tac Toe*

        I’ve been updating my CV and was wondering if I should include the reason for the time gap in my employment history.

        I appreciate all the help everyone!

    4. it happens*

      iRelaunch is a very good resource for this type of issue. They have a website and a very active Facebook group. There are other people who done this- you can, too. Good luck.

    5. The Man, Becky Lynch*

      A lot of times we have to cobble together references when in a situation like this, most places are going to understand given the gap.

      I suggest working with a temp agency to help you gain some current work history if possible and to get you networking and “dipping back” into the work force without having to jump in head first with a full time job right out of the gate!

      You can certainly use the church as a reference. It reminds me of first starting out all those years ago and the references you have when you’re coming out of high school or college. You use teachers or coaches or a youth group leader who knows you well. They can speak for your work ethic “She shows up, we always count on Tic Tac Toe to work with our fundraisers, etc.” It’s not ideal but it’s something that you shouldn’t just toss away, it’s more than others in your situation have!

      Have you volunteered with the school for your child? A PTA member by chance? Fundraiser? Boosters? Again, not ideal but honestly it’s better than nothing and anyone who judges you for it isn’t going to hire you anyways.

    6. Piano Girl*

      I re-entered the workforce after being home with our children for several years. My references were also out of date. I had also done extensive volunteer work at church and in the schools, so I included the two biggest leadership positions I had held and used those who had supervised me as references. I also went to work at a temp agency, which eventually led to a full-time position. I have rebuilt my resume, with new references and qualifications. Good luck!

  135. Not today Satan, not today.*

    -= Visualize me banging my head against a wall =-

    We did a staff retreat and SWOT analysis of four areas: program, fundraising, Board and Young professionals group.

    For programs, we determined that we would work to implement programs within existing schools among all grades NOT implement programs in new schools or new program delivery types outside of current program delivery models. This was pleaded and begged by our programs staff, considering there are only two staff to cover 20 schools.

    Yet our Ex Director and Dev Director are discussing otherwise, wanting to partner w/ a non-profit (new partner to us) to host after-school programs (we choose not to do after school programs). What’s going on? Why are they doing this when it wasn’t anything we discussed that the staff could handle or thought was in the best interest of the programs? The Ex Dir and Dev Dir say they have 10-15 sponsors lined up but that helps NONE when we have other programs, in existing schools, going unfunded.

    New leaders to your organization:
    – LISTEN to your staff. Take what they say as reality. Believe them when they tell you they’re burned out.
    – Don’t try to make yourselves look good by implementing new programs that don’t match what we’re doing now or what we have the capacity to do.
    – If you have directors, use them as a leadership team. Don’t work through staff in order to make decisions.
    – If your job is leading or fundraising, your role is to support programs, encourage their innovation and planning, ensure they stay in budget. Yours is not to create new ones.

    1. Quiet Observer*

      Sounds like they are chasing the funding. Mission and staff be damned. I feel you. I feel you.

  136. Overeducated*

    This is weird: I don’t get many unexpected external calls since most of my work is with internal stakeholders or via email, but 90% of them come on Fridays. Anyone else? Why do random people almost always call on Fridays?

    1. Policy Wonk*

      Because they promised themselves they’d make the call this week. And now it’s the end of the week.

      TGIF!

      1. Overeducated*

        Haha maybe! The weird thing is that they’re usually not work related, though. They are for me, obviously, but for the people calling it tends to be more “I have a question about legal stuff related to my passion project….”

    2. 1234*

      1. Maybe that’s a day a lot of people have off so they use that day to get things done.
      2. The realization that tomorrow is Saturday and they’ve put off everything until the end of the week.

    3. The Man, Becky Lynch*

      I’m assuming these are people who actually do have questions or things you can help them with and not cold calling! Since I’ve found a pattern in cold calling for each place I’ve been at and it seems to be because of how their auto-dialers are programed.

      I think they call on Friday’s though because they assume you’re in a better mood since it’s the day before the weekend ;) And they’re in follow-up/clean-up mode to enter the weekend without that hanging over their heads for next week.

    4. LCL*

      This happens to me too, I think for the reasons other people listed. And because they are calling about something they want to put off, and if they call me Friday after lunch they know they won’t have to do anything else about it until next week.

  137. A.Ham*

    low stakes question.
    I work at a cultural institution, and as an organization we are members of a tourism co-hort type thing for our geographical area and in my role it is my responsibility to attend the monthly meetings. They are honestly pretty useful meetings, with good information and a good opportunity to network. Also, since the meeting is hosted by a different member each month, they sometimes can be pretty fun too. Many of them end up being at hotels, but we have also had them at museums, zoos, distilleries, haunted houses, Dave & Busters and even a ropes course. The “fun” meetings come with free entry and time after to explore the venue, if you wish (which means these meetings are also longer).
    Anyway, the next meeting- the one we have all been looking forward to since it was announced earlier in the year- is at a local amusement park. The thing is- I just gave my notice and that meeting is the Wednesday of my last week. Should I go? I feel guilty (even though it is, legitimately, a part of my job duties). Would you be mad if your employee left the office 2 hours early to go to an amusement part two days before they left?

    1. Just Elle*

      No, go! My last day was the last day before Christmas vacation and they still gave me a holiday bonus, a company shirt, etc. Perks are perks for as long as you work there.

      That said, if you’re worried about it cutting into your transition time, it wouldn’t hurt to check in with your boss, “Hey, I was planning on attending the meeting Wednesday, but I wanted to double check with you that you didn’t have other priorities for me to wrap up before my last day.”

    2. OtterB*

      If there’s someone else in your organization who is likely to step into the role of working with the tourism cohort, it might be nice to suggest they attend the meeting instead. But if that role won’t be filled until they hire your replacement, it seems reasonable enough to me for you to go, assuming it’s not eating badly into your transition time.

  138. Just a girl engineer*

    I had a ‘career discussion’ with the senior discipline manager yesterday.

    I went in with “I’d like to take on a supervisory role in the near future, with the goal of being on the leadership team in the long term.” I was ready with a list of reasons I’d be a great leader, a resume citing past supervisory experience, etc.

    What I wasn’t ready for was his response: “Well, to point out the obvious, you’re a girl in engineering… so with our new diversity program, there’s no way you wouldn’t be offered that opportunity at some point.”

    Me: Nervous laughter followed by, “well that’s not really fair is it? I’d like to earn the position on my merits…”

    Him: “All I’m saying is, you’re much better positioned here than in, say, quality. Anyway, lets table that for now.”

    I didn’t manage to pick my jaw up off the floor for the rest of the equally unsuccessful meeting.

    1. WellRed*

      I don’t know what a senior discipline manager is, but I do wonder, is he just an awkward engineer type and his response came out wrong ?(so, so wrong).

      1. Just a girl engineer*

        Sorry, it is a weird industry specific term. Think of him as the big boss responsible for people development in a certain discipline (structures engineering, design engineering, etc). So he is my supervisor’s supervisor and his entire job is finding the right roles for people and developing their technical proficiency.

        So, yes, sadly my entire company is engineers-who-were-forced-to-be-managers and sometimes that leads to awkwardness. But on the other hand, its literally his job to handle these things with a bit… more grace. And instead of apologizing once it was out of his mouth he doubled down on it!

        1. Veryanon*

          I’m literally stunned that your 2nd level manager actually referred to you as a “girl.” And then doubled down on it! I mean, he could have said something like “Our company really promotes diversity, so as a woman in a STEM field, you’d have a lot of opportunities.” Still not a great message, but more graceful than “you’re a girl in engineering.” Wow.

    3. animaniactoo*

      So, uh. What’s HR at your company like?

      Because what he did here was to actually make you, as a female, feel unwelcome and singled out. Not welcome and included on the basis of your strengths.

      It sounds like he needs some retraining…

      1. Just a girl engineer*

        Unfortunately, useless. When a group of 19 of us went to complain about a blatantly sexist manager who screamed at us daily, frequently mocked female’s voices, and (direct quote from someone else) “made me cry with dread on the way into work.” They tried to do something but were shut down by upper management. Instead we had a one day all-group training on how to better communicate our feelings.

        So then they came back to me with “Well, we are REALLY sorry that we put you in that group as your first job at the company. We try to put people with more relaxed groups at first because we want them to have a change to grow, and we don’t want them to think that’s what Company is really like.” (My response was that if you allow these things to go on at your company, that is in fact what your company is really like).

        Which kind of goes back to the, do I leave the company, or do I play the game long enough to get into a leadership position where I can actually change the culture?

        1. Engineer Girl*

          Leave. Leave now.

          As an engineer, we somehow develop a “I’m sure I can find a way to fix this” mentality. We keep trying to make it work.

          It’s clear you’re not respected for your ability. That will hold you back time and again. Your engineering opinion will continually get questioned. Youll have to socialize your changes much more to get consensus. You’ll have to prove yourself multiple times over just to get ahead (slowing down the promotion track).

          For the sake of your career, leave.

          1. Just a girl engineer*

            But… honestly… is it better elsewhere? I’ve worked at 3 companies of 3 sizes and 3 industries so far, and they all have serious growing to do in terms of being “fair” to women. This company is slightly worse than the first 2, but its also a Fortune 500 and extremely well respected as The Best Job in the area, so short of another cross country move…?
            My mom is a software engineer and is currently surrounded by an amazing group of people, but my stories are nothing compared to hers from the “early days.”

            I don’t think I’m “not respected for my ability” because this guy has literally no knowledge whatsoever of my ability, he is new to the position and has never met me or seen my work. But, he also doesn’t seem to think my ability matters? But in other areas I do receive a lot of praise and recognition and opportunity to test my ideas.

            The socializing more to get consensus is so real though. With aforementioned Bad Boss, I made the presentations and had guy engineers present them, because if I didn’t he’d just tell me I need to come back with so-and-so and present again because HE is an expert.
            And, you know how it is, I’m pushy where men are confident. I’m a B where men are just straightforward. The usual.

            1. Blue Bunny*

              It really isn’t better elsewhere, at least not in aggregate. My company gets “women in STEM” media coverage out the wazoo, but the misogyny is insane. The latest a woman got hired to lead an engineering department, and the old white dudes started a freaking petition.

            2. Engineer Girl*

              It is better in some places. Look at companies where there are a disproportionate number of female engineers. Especially in technical leadership. Yes, there is misogyny everywhere in STEM. But some places are worse than others.

              Your boss doesn’t care about your skill set (he didn’t even bother to learn it!) – red flag
              You’ve had to have men present your ideas to get them accepted – red flag
              The man is the expert and you are not – red flag
              Your HR didn’t respond even though women complained as a group – red flag

              Look, I’m a crusty old engineer with too many war stories. I know that some places are way worse than others. But your place has severe issues. Until you work at a good place you won’t realize how dysfunctional it is.

              You’re losing opportunities due to sexism. That will affect your long term career path.

              1. tangerineRose*

                I work in software development, which I know isn’t the same as engineering, but it is better in some places for that. I worked in the same place for a long time and was respected for my abilities. I’m female, most of the programmers were male.

    4. Just a girl geo*

      He speaks a truth. BUT that does not excuse him from helping you develop your skills so that when the opportunity does arise you will be the most qualified person to step into that role. Why is it so hard to be seen as a competent ambitious work person and not a girl work person?!?

      1. Just a girl engineer*

        Seriously! I’m just trying to imagine how he would have replied to a guy who said that, you know, maybe “hmm let me take a look at your resume… if that’s a long term goal it looks like we need to get you experience in xyz areas.”

        And while I know its the truth, its a pretty painful one. A guy engineer I work with is positively brilliant, much more politically savvy than me, and someone I turn to with every question. And yet, I am given more visibility opportunities and high-profile responsibilities than him.
        So, having just come off a discussion with him about his dwindling leadership chances following the new “diversity” program launch, maybe it was a touchy subject for me. (For the record, only 20% of engineering graduates are women and yet the goal is to have 50% of the leadership team made up of minorities by 2020).

        1. Earthwalker*

          Could you ask him that? “If a ‘boy’ engineer had the same skills and experience and the same career intentions, what would you say to him?” (Are there even ‘boy’ engineers?)

          1. Just a girl engineer*

            Haha, I am going to start referring to my engineer coworkers as boys. Kidding. But oh man.

            But yes that would be a great thing to do in the future. I think I was too stunned to coherently provide feedback that this was Not Ok.

        2. Just a girl geo*

          Oh I hear you, and yes, it is a touchy subject. My more recent attitude has been to acknowledge that while not entirely fair, diverse hiring practices will pay off for everyone down the road and that the reason they even exist is because things weren’t fair in the first place.

        3. SemiRetired*

          By 2020? That’s next year. That’s 7 months away. And women are not minorities. So are they planning to hire a bunch of POC in the next few months and/or fire other people to get that balance? Or do they have no intention of meeting their goal (which is a weird goal anyway.) or are they just bad at math? If so, another red flag for an engineering concern.

    5. LaDeeDa*

      That is BS. Absolute BS and I would tell whoever is leading the D&I at your company. It completely undermines your abilities, skills, competencies, accomplishments, and potential.
      That attitude is why women and people of color have to prove themselves so much more, because people think they got their job because of diversity initiatives or affirmative action. This makes me so angry.

    6. Dragoning*

      Oh, yes, you’re clearly getting that opportunity when he’s shutting you our for being a girl and thus having OTHER opportunities.

  139. Invisible Fish*

    How do I handle cover letters when the online application for multiple jobs won’t let you differentiate/use different letters for different jobs?

    I’m applying for jobs in different school districts. I’m qualified for roles in different areas: coaching and mentoring teachers, intervening to meet needs of students at risk of dropping out, etc. Most districts use a similar online program in which you upload a resume, a cover letter, service letters, etc., then apply for several jobs at once.

    Obviously, ideally, I’d send in a customized cover letter for each position, but unless someone knows how to game this system, I don’t see how. If I upload cover letter A and apply for job A, cover letter A is still what’s in the system when I apply for job B. Changing the cover letter in system each time you apply won’t necessarily help, because if hiring manager A pulls documents after I change the cover letter, all that’s waiting in system is the cover letter for job B.

    So how to customize a 1 cover letter for a multitude of jobs? Or am I missing something?

    1. Anonymeece*

      Our system does this too. It’s aggravating for both the hiring manager (because I can’t tell if the person actually sent the same cover letter and didn’t bother to change it, or if they applied to two different jobs) and as an applicant.

      I’m interested to hear if anyone does have tips on this!

    2. Just Elle*

      Honestly, for these jobs I just do one generic cover letter. I focus on why I am passionate about working for the company, and then highlight my top strengths and interests in general. Honestly I think that helped me out a little bit when I was applying for my current job, because based on my cover letter they were able to help me identify the role that best fit me.

  140. Half-Caf Latte*

    SALTY RANT AHEAD:

    Logged into the FSA website yesterday to submit a claim. Noticed a change that the plan “end date” is suddenly 6-14; and claims must be submitted before 6-19.

    All year, it’s said the plan runs through 6-30, and claims can be sent through 9-30. So now I’m worried that I don’t have nearly as much time to file as I thought, and we have one more paycheck after the claim deadline, so it beats me how they expect me to be able to claim that amount, but I’ll be damned if they’re keeping $200.

    It’s a clusterfudge trying to get a straight answer, FSA administrator claims to know nothing, and there’s no direct contact info for the benefits people here in HR. Eventually get an answer that they’re migrating the platform, and those dates represent the downtime. For the healthcare FSA, it’s also impacting the payment cards, and the response was “but don’t worry! You can just pay out of pocket, get receipts, and get reimbursed once it’s back up.” The sentiment was very “don’t you worry your pretty little head about these things/it will all come out in the wash no harm no foul.”

    I decided that this was at least a hill worth getting injured on, and so I replied saying that while I appreciated the explanation, getting to it was unnecessarily hard, and it should have been communicated publicly, and with more notice. I said that I was fortunate that I am able to delay submitting for reimbursement, but that I know for certain that I have coworkers who don’t have that kind of flexibility in their budgets, and that to spring this on people with less than two weeks notice is unfair. There are people who will need to pay co-pays and other expenses that can’t be shifted in those two weeks, and weren’t planning on needing to pay out of pocket and wait weeks for reimbursement.

    HR’s response was extensive word-vomit which included the phrasing that this is what is best for the enterprise and its employees. It took all of my will not to be like “not financially screwing over employees is also good for them.”

    1. WellRed*

      Sounds like HR dropped the ball in communicating this change and is trying to deflect from that. I do love it when a company acts like costing us money is doing us a favor.

    2. animaniactoo*

      “I’ve tried to let this go, but I haven’t been able to. Without proper communication about this, it is not good for employees and can be extremely bad for employees which is therefore bad for the company. I do not wish to have further discussion about this, I simply want you to be aware that nothing you have said has changed my mind about springing unexpected out-of-pocket costs – even temporary ones – on employees with little to no notification when it was possible to do so sooner. Please make it a priority to communicate better with the employees who will be affected in future.”

      1. Half-Caf Latte*

        part of the word vomit was an excuse that gosh golly gee they just didn’t know sooner because different business units weren’t aligned on benefits but then once they decided to go for it it just had to happen RIGHT NOW!

    3. ArtK*

      Ugh, especially the “you can pay out of pocket and apply for reimbursement.” Got told that by an HR person after our insurance lapsed and there was a delay getting it restarted. Why did it elapse, you ask? Because neither the CEO nor HR apparently understood that you have to re-enroll each year. Why our insurance agent didn’t let them know, I have no idea; She wasn’t terribly competent — during the emergency re-enrollment she managed to misspell my name and sign me up for the wrong plan. The plan that none of our doctors were on! Fortunately, we were able to get that resolved quickly, but it was scary.

      When the CEO was told about the insurance lapsing, his response was “What? We paid them!” Yes dude, but nobody re-enrolled. I’m sure the insurance company appreciated the donation.

      1. ArtK*

        Oh, how did I find out about the lapse? The online pharmacy billed me for $1200 for a medication that previously had been about $50. No way I’m going to pay the $1200 and hope that someone will reimburse.

        1. Reba*

          Oh I’ve been there. The least pleasant kind of surprise!

          I actually got bills for services that were previously paid, and then the insurer clawed back the payments because my company (incorrectly) filed me as having been ineligible during that time… causing me to be billed for things that happened a year ago!

  141. Break-Up Letter to Client*

    Actually a question for a friend:

    I hired a housecleaner, Mary, a while ago who was starting her own business. She’s awesome and I happily referred a friend, Beth, to her. The problem is I didn’t realize friend is SUPER messy and thinks that housecleaner=maid. Mary has tried her best, but Beth has caused her so much anxiety and her house takes so long to clean that it’s not worth it (in case it matters, Mary has no problems with Beth as a problem, just the state of her house). Mary told this to me because she was worried about the relationship, but I assured her that if she wanted to drop Beth as a client, I wasn’t going to hold it against her.

    Mary speaks English as a second language and has asked me to write things for her before, like (unofficial) contract agreements, raise in price letters, etc. which I have. She asked for my help in telling Beth nicely that she no longer wants to clean her house, but I don’t have any idea how to write this.

    Any tips?

    1. Just Elle*

      Maybe instead of immediately dropping her, you could help her develop guidelines for what services are and are not included (ie, includes vacuuming rooms where there is NOT junk on the floor – just put more nicely)? State that the full rate will be charged regardless of how many items cannot be due to the clutter. She can give that to Beth and ask her if given that info, she’d still like her services. And from now on, she could have that to give to other clients upfront as well.

      That said, she could also just do an easy white lie and tell Beth that she no longer has time to clean her house due to other clients / how out of the way her house is / etc.

      1. Break-Up Letter to Client*

        I actually did write up something like this for her, with a note on services provided for quote, services that incur extra charges, and then a note saying what clients are responsible for (things like: pick up your clothes if you want me to vacuum type things) prior to her arrival.

        That said, Mary has definitively said she does not want to do Beth’s house anymore, even if she did think Beth would actually do those things (which is… debatable).

        So I like the idea of the white lie, I just don’t know how to phrase it. Should I put: “Hi Beth, I wanted to let you know that starting [DATE], I will not be able to continue cleaning your house due to [yeah, this is where I falter]. Thank you for being a great client!”, or should I just leave it at “I will not be able to continue cleaning your house” with no explanation, thank you, etc?

        1. RandomU...*

          I like your letter better than mine, it sounds friendlier.

          I used ‘unforeseen circumstances’ in my example :) Nice and vague.

    3. MuseumChick*

      Help Mary write out a list of services she does provide and a list of services she does not provide

      On the provide list can be things like: “Vacuuming, moping, sweeping, wiping down counters,” etc. On the does not provide list can be things like “clearing clutter from floors, dishes,” etc.

      Then she can give it to her clients as an “update on the services I provide.”

    4. Psyche*

      I would probably say that unfortunately, cleaning Beth’s house is a much larger job than anticipated and Mary will be unable to continue to clean her house. If Mary knows of anyone who would be willing to take it on (at an increased rate probably) she can include their contact information. I don’t really think anything else is necessary.

    5. RandomU...*

      Does Mary have any type of contract with Beth? I’m guessing not, but that might change things a bit.

      Assuming no contract:

      Beth,
      Due to unforeseen circumstances I find myself having to cut back on the number of clients I am able clean for. At this time -or whatever the time frame is eg. 2 weeks from now – I will no longer be able to provide cleaning services for you.

      I appreciate your business and will contact you in the future if my circumstances change.

      Thank you for understanding,
      Mary

      1. Break-Up Letter to Client*

        No contract, no.

        I like this – vague, but firm! Thank you for the help!

    6. Aphrodite*

      I’d keep it simple. Since Mary’s goal is to drop Beth as a client–not to get her to change her habits–she needs to be clear about that without beating around the bush. Say something like this:

      Beth:

      This is my official notice that I will not be able to provide cleaning services for you after [date two weeks out]. While I have enjoyed working with you, I am streamlining my services to the point that they will be unacceptable to the needs of your home. I can recommend xxx and xxx services who do offer more extensive cleaning services than I am able. Thank you for the trust you placed in me. I wish you the best.

      Cordially,

      Mary

    7. The Man, Becky Lynch*

      When I break up with clients, it’s usually very short and sweet like you’ve gotten a great template already for!

      Dear Beth,

      Due to time constraints, I am unable to continue to offer my services to you. I appreciate the time we’ve worked together and wish you the best in finding a new housecleaning company that suits your needs.”

      This is my go to for high maintenance “this isn’t worth it” customers.

      If she wanted to, she could refer to her to the local big-brand housekeeping company in your area if it’s available just to be “nice” and give her somewhere to go. “There is a local branch of Merry Maids you may be interested contracting, their number is XXX-XXXX” [I mean I’m never above telling someone who is costing me money to go ahead and try a competitor, she’s going to probably anyways.]

  142. NoTravelPlease*

    I am considering applying to another company that is known for having multiple positions that require heavy travel. The company has a job board with some positions posted (mostly IT related which I’m not looking for) but then they have a spot where you can submit your resume for any future postions. I would like to submit my resume and indicate my interest in any HR or Project Coordinator positions but I would like to also state that I’m not interested in roles that require heavy travel. What is the best way to write that I’m not interested in these types of positions on the cover letter?

    1. Just Elle*

      A simple line at the end, or even in the bullet point qualifications area, “Willing to travel up to X%”. Phrase it as a positive.

  143. PhillyKate*

    Does anyone here work in Account Based Marketing? If so, I’d love to talk to you. I recently took on a new role and struggling to get it off the ground.

  144. Eleanor Shellstrop*

    I gave notice at my current job this week, and am super excited to move on to a new adventure! I graduated a few years ago, and this will be my first time working in an industry I’m *actually* interested in as opposed to just taking a job to have a job. It’s also my first time moving from one job to another for a reason other than moving to another state/country, so it’s such a weird feeling to think “I can still see my current coworkers whenever I want and not be cut off from this place entirely.” The hiring process with this new job happened very fast and it still feels surreal.

    Anyway, I’m wondering if people have any tips for dealing with changing insurance providers/commuter accounts/401ks/FSAs/etc? I think the providers at my new place are totally different and I have no idea to handle the switchover. I know I’ll most likely have to find a new doctor, but how does the 401k one work? What do I need to do?

    1. Half-Caf Latte*

      401k: Here’s a link, there’s a lot to consider. https://www.bankrate.com/retirement/401k-rollover-guide/

      Key points: assuming your balance is at least 5k, your basic choices are: leave it where it is, roll it into an IRA, or roll it into your new 401K. Pros and Cons to all of the above, but article gives you some things to consider.

      if balance is less than 5k, they can require you to move it, and less than 1k they can require you to cash out.

      If you want to roll it over you want to do a direct rollover only. Indirect rollovers they withold 20% for tax and you have 60 days to come up with an equivalent amount of cash and deposit it in the new account and is frankly a headache wrought with trouble.

      Check your commuter plan, mine gives you 90 days post separation to use the funds.

      Healthcare FSA, you’ll need to use funds before you leave, or continue your FSA through COBRA if eligible. Dental and vision care are great ways to spend this money. Sunscreen is also often available for FSA reimbursement.

      2. Eleanor Shellstrop*

        This is great info, thanks!
        I don’t have the specific details of the new company’s 401k plan yet, but I do know that you aren’t eligible for it until you’ve been there for three months. Would it make sense to keep my 401k how it is now, and then do a direct rollover once I’m eligible for the new one, or are there normally consequences for waiting that long? If it matters, I have a regular 401k and a Roth 401k with my current employer, and there’s not a huge amount in it (although could be over 5k, I need to check).

    2. De Minimis*

      401k varies depending on the rules of your old plan, how much you have in your account, the rules of your new plan, and so on.

      In general, if you have above a certain amount, you can request that OldPlan keep the funds there, and you can roll it over later, keep it there permanently, or cash it out. If it’s below a certain amount, they may cash it out automatically and it would be up to you to contribute it directly to your new plan to avoid a tax penalty. There’s often a provision though for them to directly roll it over into your new plan, in which case you wouldn’t have to worry about it.

      It’s been a while since I worked with FSAs, but I remember that they can be tricky because the limit of income that is pre-tax remains the same regardless of if you moved to a new employer FSA plan during the year.

      1. Natalie*

        Nah, the FSA limit is per employer – switch mid year and you can fully fund your new FSA if you want.

        1. Half-Caf Latte*

          Point of order:

          That’s true for healthcare FSA, but dependent care FSA is a per-year limit, regardless of number of employers/plans.

        2. Eleanor Shellstrop*

          I’m not sure I totally understand this – does this mean that my pre-tax contributions to my FSA will stay the same as I selected at the beginning of the year even with a new employer? How would that work?

          1. Natalie*

            No, you start completely fresh with the new employer, whatever you had opted for with your previous employer is completely irrelevant. You can opt for any amount up to the $2700 limit with the new employer, even if you opted for and spent $2700 with your old employer as well.

            But as Half-Caf Latte noted, that’s only for a health FSA, there are different rules for dependent care FSAs.

            1. Eleanor Shellstrop*

              Ah ok, that makes sense, thanks. It is only a health FSA. So I guess I’ll just need to aggressively spend down my FSA money in the next couple weeks if I want to make the most of it!

      2. ArtK*

        One of the first things that I did when evaluating my soon-to-be employer was look up my doctor in their health plan, to make sure that we could continue. Although it wouldn’t have been a total deal-breaker to lose him, it would still be a pain. Fortunately, he’s part of a major network that is covered by most insurers.

        In the past, I’ve waited several months before rolling a 401K over.

    3. Earthwalker*

      You’re typically insured by your current insurer until the end of the month in which you leave your last employer, giving you time to get on board with the insurer of your next employer. Your current doc may be “in-network” with the old insurance and not the new, so be sure to check. For a 401K, it’s often possible to convert its contents to an IRA without tax implications (it was tax sheltered as a 401K, and it’s still tax sheltered as an IRA). A 401K is limited to a small set of investment options that your old employer chose, and an IRA is likely to offer lots more options. Call the 401K provider for your options, details, any deadline dates, and the forms to fill out.

    4. Natalie*

      I wouldn’t assume you have to find a new doctor – a lot of clinic systems are in-network for multiple insurance companies, and out of network typically means slightly less coverage rather than none.

      One thing to be aware of it that the final day to use your FSA funds will be the final day of your employment, not the final day of your insurance, which will probably run through the end of the month. You should be given 90 days or so to make any outstanding claims, but the service date of those claims will need to have been before your separation date. If you wear glasses or contacts, that is a fabulous way to use up FSA funds.

  145. Ugh*

    So, my boss is under HR investigation, and when HR called me in, I didn’t want to just rag on how terrible my boss is or how he treats me, so I focused on two incidents regarding a coworker that happened in front of me (angrily demanding my coworker explain his medical issues leading to calling out, and reprimanding him for handling a member of the public insufficiently harshly), and the disparaging comments my boss makes about millenials. I didn’t bother bringing up my boss talking about how fat I am more than once, or that time he snapped at me for arguing with him for honestly pointing out that I can’t provide the numbers he wants from GIS analysis because those numbers aren’t the truth (apparently my predecessors provided the numbers, so he doesn’t see why I can’t, but I suspect numbers have been fudged to keep him happy). These are serious, serious problems, but I didn’t feel comfortable making the HR talk about me, and now it’s been several days, and I don’t know how it will even look if I talk to HR now. Do I have to let it go at this point? I’m worried about whether there is enough to get him fired, and if there isn’t a firing, he will retaliate, and I don’t trust HR’s assurance that retaliation would be harshly punished. Then again, this is my first non-retail job, and my retail years have make me extremely cynical about HR, so my distrust towards HR may or may not actually be logical.

    I don’t know the next step. If he comes back from suspention, I cannot see myself working with him, but I had my opportunity to give all this information, and I chose not to.

    1. Just Elle*

      Its never too late to go back to HR. Its extremely, extremely common for people to feel uncomfortable initially and then decide they have more to add. A decent HR person will be really glad you stepped forward, not question why it took so long.

      Its worth writing down the incidents, so that you can be just as unemotional and factual when retelling them as you were when you shared observed incidents.

      Its also really acceptable to ask HR how they plan to protect you, what path you can take if you feel retaliation, etc. Specifics, like what the procedure is for following up on reports of retaliation, not just “don’t worry.” Also, if you REALLY aren’t comfortable talking to HR, you can see if your company has an ombudsman line (which is anonymous).

      1. Em from CT*

        I’d agree that it shouldn’t be a problem to go back to HR if that’s what you want to to. I can see benefits and drawbacks to having a follow-up conversation in person or via email, but either way you choose to handle it, you could frame it as “After our conversation the other day, I’ve been thinking about some additional information that might be relevant.”

        I hear what you’re saying about not wanting the discussion to be all about you—but at the same time, your ability to thrive and be effective at your job matters just as much as your coworkers’, and your HR department should care about your experiences as much as others’ experiences!

        1. Just Elle*

          Sorry, to be clear, I probably wouldn’t email them. I just mean, bring a bullet pointed list to refer back to because you might miss things in the (understandably emotional) moment.

    3. The Ginger Ginger*

      I would also be sure HR knows you were initially wary of sharing your concerns because you are afraid of retaliation. That’s a big deal, and should wave a TON of red flags in front of any reasonably competent HR person. It’s okay to ask what they’re plan/advice for preventing that is.

    4. Semaj*

      Your HR department is trying to do the right thing by investigating this and you’ve purposefully crippled the effort by withholding information. In these examples you shared how he treats other coworkers but you don’t think it’s appropriate to share how he treats you? I don’t understand that at all. You say you’re worried about retaliation, yet you did provide HR with information. Why will he not retaliate over this but would retaliate over the other details?

      There’s no reason to be suspicious of an HR department that is putting forward a good faith effort. Help them get the information they need and if he does come back you can use this as an opportunity to say, given what we’ve already discussed, I’m not able to continue to work under this boss.

      Bad HR in a retail environment does not equal bad HR everywhere.

      1. OtterB*

        This seems unnecessarily harsh on OP, who has plenty of reason to be wary of the organization, if not necessarily of HR. I agree that they should get back in touch with HR and say they have some additional information they’d like to add, but “purposefully crippled the effort” is overkill.

        “I didn’t feel comfortable making the HR talk about me” would be consistent with someone who has been treated as though their legitimate complaints were their own failings or at best personality conflicts. It’s also often much easier to defend someone else than to defend yourself. We don’t know that it’s the case, but it seems likely enough that it’s part of the office dysfunction to give OP the benefit of the doubt.

        1. ClosedWindow*

          I agree that saying the OP purposefully crippled HR’s effort is harsh.

          I had a toxic boss who was being investigated by HR before and I didn’t provide any useful information. Part of it was because I was randomly called from my desk to go meet with an HR person alone. I was worried over trying to figure out what I could possibly be in trouble for, and then when asked about my boss I was surprised and unprepared. Part of it was because I was afraid saying anything bad would come back to bite me since I knew my boss wasn’t getting fired. If I’d had good experiences with HR in the past (I hadn’t) and if I had known contacting HR after the meeting to give them information was an option I might have acted differently.

          Everyone can’t always react perfectly in every situation, and everyone hasn’t had good experiences with HR departments that make them feel comfortable being open with them.

    5. Veryanon*

      I’m in HR. People do this all the time when I’m conducting an investigation. I never hold it against them because I totally understand that no one wants to be That Person Who Got Fergus Fired. Please go back to the HR rep and tell them that you’d like to meet again as you have additional info to share.

    6. Sleepytime Tea*

      If they asked you about specific incidents and you responded with information about them, there’s nothing wrong with that. And it’s not too late. You can absolutely reach out and say “so after our meeting the other day I spent some time thinking and I had some additional concerns I wanted to share. Could we set up another meeting?” You can also just be straightforward and say “I was a little hesitant to share a few things because I am honestly a bit afraid of retaliation, but I decided that I am willing to share some more personal situations that have come up.”

    7. The Man, Becky Lynch*

      As HR, please give them the extra information.

      They’re already investigating him, they know something is up. They understand you’re scared. At this point they’re compiling their stories/evidence so that they can rake him over the coals he deserves to be raked over. This guy is a danger to the organization and the fear he’s instilled in you is what they’re trying to fix so that it doens’t continue.

    8. WellRed*

      Calling you fat is a big deal, especially if you are a woman because that is often gendered criticism. Please report it.

  146. Just a Manager*

    Hi,
    I need to see if I’m a stick in the mud on something or if my concerns are valid.

    A fellow manager wants to hire the son of someone on his team to join his team. The team is small there would be only three people reporting to the manager – the father, the son and another person. This is a senior technical team.

    I’ve said this is a horrible idea. First just on that team. It’s going to create a weird dynamic with the other team member. All three are the same grade but how will the father/son dynamic play out. I manage a team that works closely with this group. I can see issues with my team, who is the authority, what if one of my people has an issue with the son, how does that impact the relationship with the father? Finally with the organization, what happens if we hit a recession and have to lay the son off? How will the father react? Why should that even be a thing we have to think about?

    Am I off base with my concerns?

    2. animaniactoo*

      You’re not necessarily off-base. The question is how professional can they all be?

      I was the daughter who came in to be the third in a situation like that. In my case, I was actually training to take over from my father, but there was a significant amount of overlap (close to a year IIRC).

      It worked out fine, I was an adult who did not live with my father and we managed to keep it professional enough that as far as I know there was never an issue. In fact, the primary issue came with my father letting go and continuing to do things himself and that was quickly solved when he dropped into the seat to do something again saying it would be quicker himself, and I said “Yes, but if you do that I’ll never learn how to do it.” He popped back up out of the seat and told me what to do.

      Perhaps talking about the possibility of the dynamics and presenting as a trial period to see if it’s workable, rather than a straight hiring? (Assuming that the son is between jobs at this point). Now that I think about it – I’m entirely sure that my dad checked with the other teammate before they brought me in. Push doing that and respecting the other co-worker’s comfort level.

      1. Just a Manager*

        Thanks everyone for the comments.

        Surprisingly to me, HR doesn’t have an issue with it. We do have other places in the organization where a parent and child work together, even with one mother supervising her daughter. I just don’t think we need any more drama.

        1. Fortitude Jones*

          A mother supervising her daughter?! Unless this is a family owned and run business, this is hugely problematic.

    4. The Man, Becky Lynch*

      It depends on a lot of factors.

      First of all is the son coming with a background and a good fit for the job. It has to be that he would get the job without his dad’s support behind it and that it’s not just the “easy” option.

      I have worked with a lot of parent/children over the years. It’s about how the parent is and how responsible they are. My experience is that “dad” would be the first to so that they should fire son if he steps out of line and doen’t live up to expectations. [Yes, I know a lot of hardasses!] That’s important, it can’t be a parent who makes excuses. It would also matter as to why the son is looking for work and is available, is it because he’s hard up for a job, so much so, his dad is trying to “fix” the problem for him by bringing him onboard? Is it because the son isn’t responsible or able to get a job on his own? [This goes back to looking at his resume/experience/qualifications]

      I think that jumping to the conclusion that just “Heck no, never, nope.” is the wrong decision on your part, there are too many variables and you could be losing out on a great team member due to that prejudice way of thinking. So really as long as the hiring manager is doing their due diligence and vetting people correctly, it shouldn’t be an issue.

      It’s actually easier if you have a small team and then a cutback comes and the last one on [son] is laid off. That’s not hard to deal with. Most reasonable adults understand that procedure unlike if they’re just cutting him loose for uncertain reason!

    1. OlympiasEpiriot*

      Don’t wear white near your face (hard to light properly no matter your skin tone unless it is for black-and-white).

    2. Lilysparrow*

      Don’t look at the glass on the front of the lens. That gives you that weird blank or even crosseyed stare. Look through the lens to where the photographer’s face would be on the other side.

  148. Jaid*

    Sigh. My co-worker decided to wear her leaky headphones after lunch today.

    One more hour before I can leave.

    1. valentine*

      “Clemency, your headphones are sieves. Would you mind using different ones?”

  149. Worrieddaughter*

    Is anyone out there an LCPC or mental health counselor? My mom’s position as a school counselor was eliminated and I want to help her update her resume/cover letter but would love some career-path related examples. Counseling and school counseling, specifically, are very different from my corporate experience. If anyone could help or advise, I’d certainly appreciate it.

    1. Catsaber*

      My best friend is an LPC, and she did career-type counseling at a state government agency that provided money and services to people. It was like being a case worker – a person applied for some type of assistance (financial, job placement, etc), she’d review their case and work with them to get the assistance they needed. The position required the LPC license. She is now a data analyst within the same state agency doing analysis and evaluations of all these assistance programs.

    1. I need a vacation*

      This really depends on the org and if you need to get your own coverage, etc. I can sometimes take a day later in the week off no problem, but I know someone who has to request with 3 months notice.

    2. Anonymous Educator*

      I usually request as far in advance as possible… basically when I know whatever’s going to happen (vacation, life event) is going to happen.

      1. Peaches*

        Me too. I’ve never been told explicitly when I need to ask off for vacation (although it may be mentioned in an employee handbook). As soon as I know I have a vacation planned, I ask off. Sometimes it’s several months in advance, sometimes it’s only a month-ish.

    3. NewGlassesGirl*

      Unless your company has some standard policy, I think 3 weeks is a good time frame. I used to do it right away but too often my appointments would change, or a deadline at work would pop up on that day. 3 weeks seems to be my safe zone.

    4. Catsaber*

      I do it about 2 weeks in advance. Any earlier and too much stuff can change. If it’s something like a doctor’s appt, I will mark my calendar as soon as I know – so it could be that week, or a few months out. But if it’s just a random PTO day, probably ~2 weeks.

    5. noahwynn*

      For just a day, a week or two in advance. However, if I’m out of the office no one else is really doing my job, it just waits until I get back.

    6. The Man, Becky Lynch*

      As soon as possible. So if I decide tomorrow that I want to take my anniversary off and go to the spa, I put in the paperwork. Why not get on the calendar immediately?

      This only works because our calendar is booked like that. I know some places do schedules every X amount of time. My mom needs to input her vacation request by the 10th of the month for the following month. If it’s too much in advance her (sub par) supervisor will usually lose the paperwork or forget to bother [since organization isn’t a thing for her I have learned]. We have people put off for random dates all over the map months or weeks in advance. Two weeks is usually standard for a “required” amount of time that’s pre-planned.

    7. Beatrice*

      Thanks, guys!

      I have a couple of newer direct reports who have been asking a week or less in advance. One just asked at 11 am today if she could have Monday off! We don’t have any formal rules about it and I want to be as accommodating as possible, but jeepers. (It’s also made me aware that I need to double down on coverage plans for people being out.)

      1. The Man, Becky Lynch*

        Since you have coverage concerns, use that when you ask them for more time in advance. You don’t need a formal rule about it necessarily. “You know, it puts me in a pickle when I don’t have at least a week advance notice for these kinds of requests. Please let me know with more notice next time. I understand things come up and that sometimes we’ll need to grant time off without much notice for emergencies or if you have the chance to slide into an appointment earlier than expected but please be mindful of the amount of time you give to me in the future.” Kind of thing.

        And if coverage is an issue, don’t approve it. Simply say “If I had more time to plan for that, I would have been happy to allow it but since it’s 11am on Friday, I can’t find someone to cover your desk on Monday with that much notice.” A stinger like that once is usually enough, then suddenly you’ll see they’ll tell you at least a few days sooner next time.

        1. Beatrice*

          That’s basically what I told her!

          If you’re familiar with Ask vs. Guess culture, she seems to be more of an Ask type, where I am firmly on the side of Guess, especially when it comes to vacation, because I really hate to say no about taking time off. I might just need to get over that when someone gives me less than a week’s notice.

    8. WellRed*

      If the company can’t handle 1 day off with say several days notice it’s doing something wrong, excepting fields where coverage is crucial.

  151. Rainy days*

    A coworker (same level as me) is frequently very late with his work and it impacts me. He’s extremely apologetic and I end up feeling like I have to say “That’s okay…” as a response to his apology even though it’s not. What do I say to someone who is apologizing besides “That’s okay”? (Without going into the details, I have no power to force him to be more on time and there’s no supervisor who is going to intervene.)

    1. ArtK*

      “While I appreciate the apology, this seems to happen a lot. What can we do to avoid it in the first place?”

    2. Close Bracket*

      You have no power to force anything, but you have plenty of power to lay out the impact of his lateness and to ask him to put more effort into being on time. You don’t have to say, “That’s ok.” You are absolutely allowed to respond with, “I need to have this on time.” He’ll apologize again, so you say, “Thanks for the apology. I do need these on time, though. Thanks for understanding.” and walk away.

    3. ArtK*

      Close Bracket makes a very good point here. By saying “That’s ok…” you are telling him exactly that. That his being late isn’t a problem. But it is a problem. This is one situation where being a “people pleaser” can make your life much more difficult. This is business, not a friend. Make sure he understands the impact and that it isn’t acceptable from this point onward.

    4. SarahKay*

      Could you try something like “I appreciate the apology, but it does mean I’m going to have to work late / rush the teapot handles / insert suitable consequence here” And possibly, even, add “Is there something we can change that will mean you can meet the deadline?”
      I know you’re not his supervisor, but it’s not unreasonable for you to politely tell someone that their lateness is creating problems for you; I don’t think you have to accept the apology when it keeps happening.

      2. tangerineRose*

        “I appreciate the apology, but it does mean I’m going to have to work late / rush the teapot handles / insert suitable consequence here” And possibly, even, add “Is there something we can change that will mean you can meet the deadline?” I like this.

    5. Rainy days*

      Thanks everyone! I always strive to be polite, kind, etc in my daily interactions with coworkers, but I realize I can lean to far in the polite direction. I appreciate all of these suggestions and will try them out.

      1. Rusty Shackelford*

        If you can’t yet bring yourself to point out how his lateness affects you, you could start by just saying “thank you for the apology” instead of “it’s okay.” This allows you to acknowledge the apology, but it goes no further. I mean, I think you should absolutely add what the others have said, but sometimes it’s hard to just jump in there and do it, so this could be a preliminary step if needed.

    6. Argh!*

      You can say, “It’s not okay. I really needed it to be done on time and this has impacted my ability to do my job. Please try not to do this again.”

      Seriously. If it’s not okay, don’t say it is.

    7. Beatrice*

      I have literally told someone, “I don’t need you to be sorry, I need you to get me your work on time. When you’re late, it causes X impact to my work, and that can’t keep happening.” And then just stopped talking. It was blunt, but that suited my personality and the situation, and was appropriate in our office culture. (It did not get better, I just moved to a job where I don’t interact with him. His name came up in a meeting with a colleague who works with him this week and…yeah…he’s the same.)

    8. Blue Eagle*

      Why are you saying “That’s OK” or “thank you for the apology”. You should be saying something like “When this is late it creates problems for me. Is there some way that you can get this done on a more timely basis in the future? I would appreciate receiving it on time.”
      Or some similar wording.

  152. Restructure Hellion*

    Any tips on doing a job search when you can’t start for a few months?
    We’re trying to close on a house this summer so I need to stay where I am for the time being. Obviously the application-to-hire timeline is about the same but I don’t want to jeopardize anything. Plus my employer is part of a merger expected to close this fall.
    All this is telling me to network instead of looking at current openings. Your thoughts?

    1. Anonymous Educator*

      Just keep trying? I’m in the same boat. Lots of places want to do immediate hires and aren’t hiring out for a few months from now. But there will always be some random places that aren’t in a rush or whose hiring processes take a few months anyway. Good luck!

    2. ArtK*

      I’d apply. You never know how long the process will take. A reasonable company would accept “I won’t be able to start until X due to a move.” Do that when you have an offer and are discussing start dates. Don’t bring it up before that point.

      Case in point: My post above about finding a new job. Although I accepted the verbal offer yesterday, I won’t start for another 2 months because that works out best for everyone.

    3. A Simple Narwhal*

      I agree to start looking at current openings. Hiring can drag on forever, so the time might pass anyway, so no sense to delay (unless the listing openly says they need someone to start right this instant, of course). Also not being able to start for a few months, especially for a tangible reason like closing on a house, is super reasonable.

  153. Toilet’sMistress*

    For any of those with chronic conditions that require frequent bathroom breaks, how do you manage?

    I started a new job and my IBS means that sometimes I need to go to the bathroom multiple times in the same hour, sometimes I’ll be gone for a long time. Sometimes I’ll just get up from my desk frequently. I work in small, shared office with my coworkers, so people notice.

    It feels weird to get up so often with no explanation, but it also feels weird to tell them “hey, I have a condition that means I poop a lot. So when you see me get up, I’m leaving to poop my brains out.”

    What do you do?

    1. A Simple Narwhal*

      I don’t think you need to do anything. Unless the bathroom is in a super open and noticeable area, no one is going to immediately associate you getting up with long bathroom time. There are so many reasons for someone to be getting up – going to a meeting, stretching their legs, going to talk to someone at their desk, getting a drink of water, the possibilities are endless. And even when I worked in a very small office, I never really paid any attention to how often my coworkers were getting up. As long as you aren’t leaving anyone in a lurch constantly, I don’t think you need to say anything.

      And if your boss/some busybody brings it up, you can just explain that you have a condition that requires frequent trips to the restroom.

    2. Former Retail Manager*

      I disagree with the other poster, mostly because you are new to the job and they have no real history with you. For all they know, you could be in there taking phone calls, playing on Facebook, running another business on the side. It is also unclear if they know that you are definitely in the restroom or if you could be elsewhere, which might further lead to them questioning what exactly you’re doing. My husband has IBS, but he also has a very outgoing personality and he routinely jokes about his IBS, so he told all of his co-workers and boss about it point-blank, up front. Part of the reason for this is that he has bad days in which he not only makes many trips to the restroom, but will also just generally feel bad thereby making him less productive, which was bound to be noticed, so he decided to address it early on.

      If you aren’t comfortable joking about it, you could just tell them matter of factly that they may notice your frequent departures from your desk and it is due to a health condition requiring restroom breaks. Most people are familiar enough with IBS to read between the lines and will ask no more. And my husband has found that most people don’t really like to talk about poop so they really don’t ask many questions.

      For what’s it worth, you have my sympathies. IBS sucks!

    3. BadWolf*

      Depending on your office layout, you could consider walking different ways — assuming you don’t need to take the shortest way every time.

      Maybe take with a water bottle sometimes. Or garbage. Maybe staring at your phone like you have to a make a call.

    4. E*

      IBS is pretty commonly known to cause frequent bathroom break needs, so if you’re comfortable just a quick statement to coworkers that “sorry, my IBS is acting up today” (when you feel the frequency of the day’s trips is a lot) should be enough info without an in-depth poop discussion.

    5. LGC*

      So, first of all, I’m really sorry that you’re dealing with this! It sounds pretty awkward and embarrassing.

      If I were you, I’d loop in your manager/supervisor and give the brief, slightly sanitized summary (you have to get up often due to a medical condition). I don’t think it’s the rest of your office’s business and if they’re gossiping about you being The Office Pooper, that’s on them.

      (Honestly, it depends – if it is visibly affecting your work, then you should mention it. But if it’s not…you have more leeway.)

      1. Fortitude Jones*

        This. I ultimately had to come out to my manager because my trips were becoming noticeable and I couldn’t always sit through hour long meetings. Thankfully, I work from home now, so when I’m sick, nobody has to know but me.

  154. Heyanonnynonny*

    I’m in a large corporation. I’ve reported to my manager for 8 years. He’s fantastic and our working styles mesh well. We’re even friends, as much as you can be with a manager. Lately I’ve been seeing signs that he might be wanting to move on within the company, which would mean I would then report to his replacement. Am I allowed to ask him to confirm or deny (except more politely haha)? Or would that be overstepping a boundary? If it was a co-worker I wouldn’t think twice but since he’s my manager… What do you folks think?

    1. Anonymous Educator*

      Confirm or deny he’s moving within the company? Even if he were, does he know for sure, or he is also waiting to hear back from someone? I don’t think it could hurt to ask. He doesn’t have to give you a real answer. He may not even have a real answer to give right now.

      1. Heyanonnynonny*

        More like he seems to be gaining new responsibilities and also giving some of his existing duties to others. It seems like he’s slowly trying to phase out of his current role and into the new one. But possibly I’m paranoid because it would bum me out if it were true. I just didn’t know the etiquette, if I was allowed to ask him if it’s true.

        1. WellRed*

          I think it’d be OK to ask, but better not too. If that makes any sense. Knowing won’t change the ultimate outcome and he is still your boss, no matter how friendly the relationship. My boss and I are similar to you, but at the end of the day. Boundaries.

  155. choco croco*

    Hi everyone, any tips on how to befriend/be a good cubemate to a newish coworker?

    A coworker who was on maternity leave while I was hired is returning and is going to sit in the cubicle right next to mine. I’ve never had a cubemate and I’d really like to get along with this person so I’m a little nervous. In terms of the job we don’t collaborate so there really isn’t any reason for me to have work-related conversations with her.

    1. Anonymous Educator*

      That’s great you want to befriend your cubemate, but I think you might be overthinking it. Your mere proximity means you’re probably going to have non–work-related conversations at some point. If you hit off, great. If not, you’ll probably at least be cordial and polite with one another. I’ve been in a job with cubemates who worked in other departments. That didn’t stop us from talking to one another.

    2. NewGlassesGirl*

      “Hey how was your weekend”

      “The weather is great today!”

      Normal work talk stuff.

    3. Combinatorialist*

      I think the biggest thing to do is be mindful of noises and smells. It would probably be good to have a conversation when she comes back about explicit expectations on how you want to handle
      listening to music
      phone calls
      clicking pens and other repetitive noises
      visitors
      eating lunch/snacks at desk

    4. animaniactoo*

      Be generally friendly. Take cues from them for how much they want to talk or not.

      But mostly, being a good cubemate means not acting like your working preferences/needs are more important than their work preferences/needs. So, mostly, keep a lookout for things that might bother you if it was happening on the other side of the wall. That can range from music playing, types of conversations happening on the phone/your volume when on the phone, to how often co-workers come by, and whether you eat foods with strong odors (even pleasant ones) at your desk. And then for the things you don’t want to pro-actively adjust and tamp down on, just check in with them where it’s reasonable to do so. “Hey, I tend to play music while I work – does that bother you? Or that it’s [X kind of music]?” or “Sorry, I know there’s been a stream of visitors today. I hope it hasn’t been too much of a disturbance for you.”

      Otherwise, don’t worry about it too much. Trust them to be an adult and tell you if something is really distracting (even though lots of people won’t). Because trying too much to make them comfortable and get along will be awkward in an entirely different way.

  156. Lanie*

    Recently, there have been a lot of changes in my department. One of the salaried employees is no longer with the company, I am unsure as to what happened as I am not privy to that information. This has lead to a complete upheaval. My manager, whom I have a close relationship with and was responsible for one other coworker and me, was given most of the responsibilities of the employee who left. As a result, she is no longer managing us.

    We were reassigned to another manager who works in a similar role for another division of our company. She used to work in our division, but hasn’t in over a year. I had major concerns about this because she still has her plate full with stuff from her own division as well as having trust issues with her from something that happened in the past. I voiced my concerns, but I was basically told that I can either accept it or find another job. Since then, I have done my best to just accept the situation and do my job.

    The problem is that now our old manager, who up until now was still sharing an office with us, is being moved out of our office. Which will essentially leave me alone in the office with my coworker. My coworker is a nice person, but she is very annoying. She basically needs to be micromanaged. When you tell her something, she listens to reply instead of listening to understand. This results in her asking the same question multiple times. She makes mistakes on a lot of things because she is worried about getting her work done quickly instead of paying attention to detail. This affects many aspects of my job. She will also ask multiple people the same questions, even though she is getting the same answers.

    When our old manager is out of the office, instead of asking the new manager her questions, she brings them to me. I am basically going to be babysitting her now with no authority. I have gone to our department manager about these things as well as our old & new managers, but nothing changes. We are in the type of company where only major transgressions get dealt with in any way. We are going to be having a paid intern for the summer coming in to our office, but she is the daughter of someone in another department and spends most of her time helping her mother, so she will not be much of a buffer. Then in the fall, she will be gone.

    I do not feel that I can work productively without going absolutely crazy alone in an office with this woman. I used to love working here, but the added stress of all of these changes has made me dread coming in to work every day.

    What would you suggest?

    1. Dr. Anonymous*

      Just keep saying, “Gee, I think you should ask (new manager),” and be unhelpful until she does. Do not become her help desk.

      1. animaniactoo*

        I agree, but I wouldn’t say “I think you should ask new manager” ONLY because the phrasing might come back to bite you in your ass about how well you know *your* job. I would say “If you’re unsure, you should check with [new manager].” – then if you get any pushback about that, your message can be “I’m sure of what I would do, but I don’t want to be responsible for telling you what you should do. What I can tell you is that when I’m unsure, I think it’s best to check with the boss and make sure I’m doing what they want.”

        After that: Expect mistakes. Build extra time into everything you’re doing so that you will have the time (as much as possible) to address/correct the areas where it impacts your work. Leave it at that. It will still be annoying, but it will be less annoying if you have a process in place for handling this. Expect that she’ll do these fluttery things you’ve described and detach from having them be your problem. They’re her problem. Yours is getting your work done, and getting it done well.

        Other than that – work on changing your routines if you can. Take dedicated breaks, and find additional ways to be out of your office on occasion other than those dedicated breaks. You won’t be able to remove her from the space, so find ways to remove yourself, physically, emotionally, mentally. Do something at the end of the day that is a moment of self-care for having survived another day with her. That can be anything from taking a moment to breathe and decompress as soon as you walk out of the office but before you get started home to stopping to watch the kids/dogs/whatever at a nearby park to treating yourself to a hot drink.

        1. Tabby Baltimore*

          I agree with animaniactoo about expecting mistakes and then building in time to deal with them. I realize this could be asking a lot, but would it also be possible for you to note what kinds of mistakes your co-worker is making (like, categorize them), what kinds of office deliverables (reports, spreadsheets, etc.) she’s making them in, how much time it’s taking you to fix/correct them, and how much time it would’ve taken you to handle your end of things if she had NOT made all these errors? I’m asking this, because eventually I think you’re going to get to a point where you’ll need to justify to your manager that your manager needs to get involved with handling this employee more effectively. Your documentation will prove that her mistakes are slowing/degrading the unit’s performance and costing the company money, and that you’re not just making stuff up. Best of luck to you; please let us know how you decide to handle this.

          1. Lanie*

            Everyone knows about the mistakes in my department. It’s definitely not just me. Thanks for the advice though.

  157. AudreyParker*

    Has anyone ever relocated to a lower COL area to ostensibly save money but with no job lined up? I’m being encouraged to do this since my prolonged job search is going nowhere, but it kind of seems out of the frying pan, into the fire. If I’m struggling finding work here, there’s no guarantee I’ll find it elsewhere, right? I know our job market is competitive, but what little experience I have may not be as applicable in other places… conversely, it would be nice to not be hemorrhaging as much money as I am while I search. And the of course some lower COL areas also have lower salaries &/or fewer jobs available, so everything ends up kind of the same in the end. Just not sure if it’s a realistic idea, or something that sounds good to people who have no idea what they’re talking about.

    If you have done it, how did you swing the logistics? I just can’t wrap my head around how people handle relocation without being actively recruited in advance.

    1. Close Bracket*

      I would not do that unless I was targeting the lower COL area. Why move just to move again? People are so judgey about such little, stupid things that I could see getting grilled about why I moved, too. Not to mention that moving is so flipping expensive that you have to make an estimate of how much you might save vs how much you will spend and what the break even point is and what the risk level actually is … Nah, don’t do it.

      As to how to handle relocation without being recruited in advance, well, you call some movers, get some quotes, or hire a uhaul if that’s how you roll, move, look for a place to live, and unpack. Same as when you have been recruited in advance.

      1. AudreyParker*

        Ha, I was thinking more if you don’t have a job and need a job to actually pay the rent/get an apartment where you’re moving. I’m not really targeting positions that would seem to have a limited local pool, so I can’t imagine they’d be interested in waiting 3-4 weeks for me to pack up and move even if they interviewed me in the first place. But I don’t want to move somewhere random and just keep my fingers crossed I manage to have better luck finding work, that seems… imprudent. Some people are convinced that “people do it all the time!” but I’m thinking they aren’t seeing that it’s people with certain skills/characteristics/pay grades/contacts that do it all the time, not just any person who feels like it.

    2. Anonymous Educator*

      I decided to move to a lower COL area (not because of the lower COL but other life circumstances) well before finding a job, but fortunately I was able to find a job before the actual move happened. That said, this was shortly after the Great Recession, and that particular lower COL area hadn’t fully recovered, so there were no jobs there, so the only job I could find was in a higher COL area, which gave me an almost two-hour (each way) commute to work from lower COL area.

    3. De Minimis*

      My experience has been that the lower COL areas often have some things that are more expensive, and the benefits of lower costs are outweighed by the lower salaries. I know I had more financial difficulties when I lived in a lower COL area because I made less money, and though some things were cheaper, others were a lot more. There was also more of a need for certain things that I didn’t have to spend much on before. For example, gas was often cheaper in the lower COL area, but I had to drive a lot more so it tended to even out. Same way with utility costs, especially in winter.

      1. Anonymous Educator*

        My experience has been that the lower COL areas often have some things that are more expensive, and the benefits of lower costs are outweighed by the lower salaries.

        Generally true. The one exception I’d make to this is if you’re moving from San Francisco to pretty much anywhere else in the U.S. (including New York, Boston, Chicago, Seattle, LA).

        1. Alianora*

          Baader-Meinhof at work here — I just moved to San Francisco (from elsewhere in the Bay Area) a little over a month ago, and now I keep hearing about how it’s the most expensive place to live in the US. Guess I lucked out finding an apartment I could afford there (with roommates) on a non-tech salary!

          1. Anonymous Educator*

            According to Zumper (as of March, 2019), San Francisco is actually the most expensive city in the world (not just the U.S.), with its one-bedrooms being the most expensive, Hong Kong in second place.

            Yes, if you have roommates, you can make it work. I know an elementary school teacher sharing a house with four others in the Outer Sunset.

            1. Alianora*

              Damn. I guess the good news is that if I ever move anywhere else, I’ll have more purchasing power than I’m used to (if that stat takes average salaries into account).

      2. AudreyParker*

        This is what I’ve been picking up on in my research (which is primarily via City-Data thus far). If you just look at rents, it doesn’t really tell the whole story! I know I’d like to leave my city for a variety of reasons, but don’t want to move somewhere I’m not interested in solely because the rent is cheaper and find I’m actually downgrading quality of life AND still unable to find work. (AND just spent a ton of money to move there)

    4. LaDeeDa*

      I moved to a way lower COL area, but not because it was a lower COL area, before I had work. But I also knew it had a high demand for my job. That is the only reason I moved without a job. I was planning on taking 6 months off, but ended up getting a job 2 weeks after moving. I think it depends on your finances and the job market in the area you are thinking of moving to.

    5. Argh!*

      If you pick the right COL area, you should be fine. I found a job in a lower COL area and moved from Washington, D.C. I really love D.C., but there are trade-offs. I don’t think I’d want to be unemployed here. I’d rather be unemployed where there are more free things to do in the afternoons. A low COL area that’s between two higher cost ones could be a good launching pad, though. South Jersey would be cheaper than D.C., Philadelphia, or NYC and accessible to them all.

    6. CheeryO*

      I live in a low COL area that attracts a lot of transplants, and I’d be very nervous about moving without something lined up, unless the new city is a hot area in your field. I’ve seen way too many people get stuck in crappy jobs and crappy apartments because there just aren’t a lot of well-paying jobs, and you still have to pay groceries and bills (utilities can be insane in older houses/buildings) like you would anywhere else.

    7. Sleepytime Tea*

      Ok, I’ve done this multiple times now, so I’ve got a few tips!

      First off, you do not have to move prior to doing your job search. Out of towners apply for jobs all the time. Yes, it may make interviewing a bit more difficult, but realistically you’re not going to get an interview for every job you apply to, and personally I have yet to have it end up being overwhelming. You just let them know that because you’re coming from out of town you might need a bit more of a heads up to schedule something. Never had an issue with that.

      Perk: sometimes you get relocation benefits! It’s not a guarantee, but I’ve negotiated relocation benefits or a signing bonus that helped me with my moving expenses. It’s pretty awesome.

      You let them know that because you’ll be moving you may need a little bit more headway before your start date. So you will give two weeks notice to your current job and then need a week to move or something like that. Again, it’s generally not a big deal.

      Yes, it can be a little nuts finding a place to live in a short period of time post-job offer. But if you have picked a city then spend some time learning about it so you have an idea of where you want to live and so forth, and then once you have a job offer, you spend a weekend house/apartment/whatever hunting. (Assume you will be renting to start with. Although if you want to buy, some companies are flexible and let you work remotely until you buy in the area, but that will vary a lot more.)

      And on the note of getting to know the city you have picked, do your research on the COL. Don’t make assumptions. There are lots of sites out there that compare COL of cities and give details on everything from utilities to rent to groceries. Figure out what you would need to make in the new city to have the same take home pay after taxes and essentials. I call it the fun money. After I pay rent, utilities, car loan, taxes, etc, how much money do I have? Ok, now in new city, do the same calculation. What salary do I need to make for me to maintain my current style of living? That gives you an idea of the salary you would need, and you need to think about THAT number more than what your “salary” is. It’s the same if you moved to a higher COL area and got a salary bump. That bump won’t mean anything to your lifestyle and quality of living if it didn’t make up the difference. The easy way is to use a pre-made COL calculator, which is less precise but still a very good indicator, and if you google “compare COL” you’ll find plenty.

      Even if you’re currently unemployed, unless you have done some good research and are confident in the job market of the area you’re moving, I think I would wait until I got a job offer to move, just because as you mentioned, it would be a waste to move and then end up still unemployed, even if it cost you a little less in the long run. But you should be able to get an idea of how the job market is going by some simple searches. Lots of job postings for a smaller town that are above entry level? Job market is probably pretty decent. Very few postings? Probably not great.

      Unless your experience is somehow really directly tied to the city you are in, your skills should be applicable in other cities. I mean, if you specialize in sewer design you wouldn’t want to move to a town that is all on septic, or if you work in video game design you wouldn’t go someplace with no studios. But beyond that type of thing, skills are pretty transferable and with the right resume and cover letter you’ll be able to convey that.

  158. sea*

    I work full-time at a university and am going to be enrolling in an online program soon. The field I want to go into is one where it will be very difficult to break into unless I get experience through internships. Has anyone here juggled interning and working and care to tell me a little about your experience?

    1. Reilly and Jonesy*

      I used to work full time and was a volunteer treasurer/bookkeeper for a local non-profit, which took up another 20 hours a week. I was lucky because I could set my own hours, and that’s exactly what I did; I had a set time either after work or on the weekends to get my bookkeeping done (let me tell you, whoever developed tax form 990 deserves some terrible punishment). But just like I had work and my side-stuff scheduled, I scheduled down time. For example, Sundays after 4 were for me no matter what. I also LOVED the volunteer work, which helped immensely. I didn’t have any other obligations at the time either (no children/parents needing care) so I was able to do 60 hours and still find time for myself. Hope that helps!

  159. milksnake*

    I’ve learned so much from the AAM community that I was able to land a new job with better benefits, more vacation time, and a 45% increase in pay! Which is awesome, so thank you to everyone!

    That being said, there’s a slim chance my current office will be able to find someone for me to train before I leave. (They’ve also admitted they’re either going to have to pay someone a lot more than they paid me, or split the job between two people…. but that’s not my problem now!)

    To prepare for my departure I’m trying to update our Process/Instruction Sheets. The issue I’m running into is that I’ve updated a lot of our systems from paper to computer. For example, I started utilizing the Outlook Address Book to track our client’s contact information, and print envelopes through Word so it’s quicker and the address is always accurate to what we have on file. These seems pretty basic to me, but it is mind-boggleing to my boss, and I’m the only one in the office who knows how to do it.

    Is it my responsibility to write instructions that teach the next person how to use these really common programs? (Word, Excel, Outlook, etc.)
    Can I just write things like “Update client contact info in Outlook, print envelopes through Word using the ‘Mailings’ tab.” or “Sort the Excel sheet by column E and print for Boss to review.”
    I worry if I do the latter everyone here will be up the creek once I’m gone… but I don’t know if it’s my responsibility to worry about that any more?
    I’m conflicted, help!

    1. acctnt*

      Ugh – I’m kind of in the same boat but I can be too nice so I’m writing down step by step. I figure that it takes me obviously some legwork to get there but it would take them literally ages to get up to speed. It’s a pain for you, but I like leaving things on good terms. If it helps you, you can frame it so that the instructions are for the good of the company and it’s knowledge you would like to bestow before you leave! It’s up to them to figure out how to utilize it, though ;)

      1. milksnake*

        It’s like you’re reading my mind. I do really want to leave on good terms, and one other person in the office actually volunteered to test out my instructions, so they could learn how to do some of my work in the meantime.

        The problem is I could have two months and still not be able to write a process sheet for everything I’m responsible for. I’m handling too many things, and the boss is still expecting me to wrap up regular work before I leave.

        1. animaniactoo*

          As an overall process for handling this, I think what you want to do is:

          1) Broad overview of everything you can think of (your latter version). Written for someone who is very familiar with Microsoft Office.

          2) Keep an eye out as you do that for anything that’s fairly unique or specific to the company, and write more detailed instructions for that.

          3) Direct to some online video sources (i.e. “YouTube videos by user ExcelMistress”) that you think are better than average if they run into trouble.

          4) If you have time, review and add additional detail where you think it makes sense. That way you’re not ruling out adding more detail – but you are making sure that you can get everything covered rather than running out of time to write up stuff because you were being detailed to start.

          After that – there are only 2 reasons for everyone to be up a creek. 1) You were handling too much and were not given enough time to create better transition docs and 2) They fail to hire somebody who knows enough about Office to follow what you’ve left behind. Neither of those are your fault and it’s highly unlikely that your colleagues will hold it against you.

          1. animaniactoo*

            For reference, the only reason I’m suggesting leaving them a specific resource for the online videos is because if I understand correctly, it’s likely that some of this will need to be done by your current co-workers until they find a replacement (or two) for you? If not, I would leave that out. It’s only a benefit when you’re handing it off to people who wouldn’t be expected to already know the program well enough to follow your broad instructions/where to find help for it.

    2. Donkey Hotey*

      First, kudos to you on preparing turnover. I was dropped blind into my current position and it took me six months to get my head above water and another year on top of that to figure everything out.

      While there is the whole ass/I/me thing in play, I operate with the understanding that my replacement will have basic office skills. If they don’t, that is my former employer’s problem, not mine.

      The one catch, I would add, is that rather than saying “sort by column E” in your example, I would say “sort by Customer’s last name” (or whatever it is that column E is). Because Murphy says that someone will eventually re-order the columns and you don’t want a rules-inflexible person sorting by Middle Initial or whatever Column E becomes.

      1. milksnake*

        I was dropped into my position blind too! I distinctly remember after being here for ~3mo when someone asked if I had done the monthly billing and I just got wide-eyed and pale because no one told me there was monthly billing to do! It took at least a year to get an idea of the cycle here.

        & The “column E” was just an example, it actually says something to the effect of “Sort by Year End Date”

        1. NoteCards*

          See, I think this really points to you leaving SOPs for the job, not for how to use the software. It sounds like if they had told you monthly billing was part of your job, then you would have done it (and in fact did do it once you realized it needed to be done!).

    3. Anonymous Educator*

      If you have time to do step-by-step, that’s always super helpful. But if you have to cut corners, cut corners on anything generic that’s Google-able—focus on organization-specific instructions and workflows.

      1. milksnake*

        I really don’t have time, Boss is still expecting me to get all my work up-to-date on top of creating these instruction sheets. I wish I could leave a comprehensive list for everything I’m responsible for but that’s not feasible.

        1. Anonymous Educator*

          Definitely focus on only org-specific stuff, then. General “how to do ______ in Excel” stuff can always be Googled.

        2. Workerbee*

          That’s nice that your boss expects you to get everything to perfect hand-off state while clearly having underpaid and overworked you, despite how not-awful the place was. I’d concentrate more on the procedures you’re so kind as to want to leave behind.

          And enjoy being paid what I hope is your worth in New Job!

    4. LaDeeDa*

      Congratulations!! 45% increase?!?! That is amazing. Good for you!! If you have the time, and ability, why not– make everyone’s life easier, if they are awful and you hate them, then don’t ;) But you can pretty quickly screenshot each step and put it into a word document.

      1. milksnake*

        Thank you!!! It’s super exciting but also very intimidating. It’s hard to believe someone would pay me more to focus on just one part of my current job.

        My current office isn’t awful, I just had too much work piled on me, so I don’t have enough time to leave comprehensive instructions for everything I do. I’m trying to tackle the big parts of my job first, then the unique parts, and at very least make a list of due-dates.

        1. E*

          Since the soon to be former job is realizing they may need 2 employees to replace you, I’d definitely focus on top level instructions unless you see something essential that needs to be noted as specific to the process (where Google wouldn’t help them).

    5. NoteCards*

      Nope, it’s not your job to train people on how to use widely available software. I think you can go even higher level and say “addresses are kept here.” The new person can figure out the best way to print them.

      1. Rusty Shackelford*

        You might point out to your current boss(es) that the person who replaces you will need to know Word, Excel, Outlook, etc. And then I’d write your instructions for a user who already understands those programs.

        1. milksnake*

          I did specify to my boss that whoever takes over is really going to need to know Microsoft Office, especially Excel. I just worry that I may know a bit more than the average user so some of the skills aren’t as straight-forward.
          You could learn it all through online instructions though… I just don’t know if I should expect the next person to do that.

          1. NoteCards*

            Honestly, if they have basic office skills they should know how to do things like a mail merge or have the ability to google and figure it out.

            I’m a designer and if I went into a new job and someone had left detailed instruction on how to update the employee handbook along the lines of “1) open the file in InDesign. 2) using the cursor tool, select the text you want to replace. 3) paste in the new text. 4) highlight each heading and use the paragraph style that is appropriate to format the section…etc.” I would be wondering what the heck I had signed up for.

            The info I do need is an explanation of file structure, procedures, general duties, etc. “You can find the handbook files on the X server under that name Teapot Handbooks. The handbook is updated once year and is printed and distributed by the last week in Jan. Content updates come from HR. Proofreading is handled by XYZ vendor. BigWig A give final approval to print, etc.”

            I can kind of see giving more detailed instructions if you were using a highly proprietary software and had to follow very specific procedures that the software did not have resources for…but that’s not the case here.

    6. Argh!*

      You could suggest to your boss that these skills be part of the job requirements for your replacement and suggest some questions that would help them suss that out.

      Congratulations and good luck in the new job!

      1. milksnake*

        I did tell my boss which programs are essential to my job, but I like your idea about suggesting some interview questions that would help to provide insight into how much someone actually knows.
        It’s easy to say “I can use Excel” and add cells together, but if you actually have to tie a mailing list data spreadsheet to a label file in Word… that may be a bit more advanced. Which is part of my concern.

        Thank you for your input & your well wishes!

    7. The Ginger Ginger*

      I think the most you need to do is point out which program you use to do what task – then MAYBE link the pertinent documentation from that program’s online how-to guide. I don’t think you need to write out the actual how to use this program step by step instruction when the internet can certainly provide that info. As long as they know what program they should be using they should be able to figure out the rest when it’s a task that program is built to perform.

    8. Sleepytime Tea*

      I tend to go somewhere in the middle. For something like “update client contact info in Outlook” that’s basic enough that it really shouldn’t need anything more than that. If they can’t hire someone competent enough to figure that type of thing out then… yeah not your problem. For a particular report in Excel, I would give a little more information to explain why you’re doing whatever it is you’re doing: Sort teapot report by “date manufactured” (Column E) and print a copy for Boss every Monday to review current production timelines.” Context is what tends to be more important for this type of thing.

      I wouldn’t get granular (click the save button in the upper left corner) but I would list out general steps (go to mailings after contacts have been updated in outlook, and us the *whatever* option to print envelopes).

  160. I Work on a Hellmouth*

    The briefest of hellos from the Hellmouth! It is monthly close out and three people are trying to move in without having let us know they were coming and things are a touch hectic, so I can’t do any real updating until after work, but: I just found out that a bunch of regional VPs and the company president all gave notice at the same time. That’s weird, right? Apparently everyone remaining is insisting that is a coincidence, but that seems… odd. Although it certainly explains why everything surrounding the way the property has been handled since Hell Boss was let go has been a bit disorganized. I briefly wondered if I should be worried, but then remembered that I am already worried all of the time anyway. Then I went back to desperately trying to keep the wheels on the metaphorical Hell Bus. Wooooo!

    1. kittymommy*

      OOhh, that makes me nervous. That’s a lot of turnover at a high level. The optimistic part of me hopes that they’ll let you drive the metaphorical bus with little to no interference. Fingers crossed you get to jump out soon though!

    2. Drew*

      I’m envisioning Leslie Nielsen standing in front of your corporate office, telling people there’s nothing to see and to please keep moving.

      Eagerly awaiting your after-work update!

    3. Venus*

      Not that that’s great news, but at least the worry of being fired seems to have disappeared if they are desperate to keep any warm body?

    4. LaDeeDa*

      That is weird! even weirder, ha! Is I thought of you this week. In the last week I have seen 4 job postings for a residential property trainer, and I thought this might be a step for you. You know ALL THE BS that residential properties bring, what the problems are, as well as the process/rules/laws, etc… all the postings said the person must have prior experience in residential property management. I love corporate training, so I am always suggesting that for people who want to transition from their job, but are also subject matter experts.

      1. Armchair Analyst*

        Why not apply for the Regional VP or CEO jobs?! Shoot for the moon! Or the squirrels!

    6. Bee's Knees*

      That happens sometimes, weirdly enough. We had about six salaried positions turn over in the space of about three months. And it does make it harder to keep the bus going, even when it’s not regularly on fire.

    7. Veryanon*

      Glad you checked in! Usually if the entire upper management team leaves at the same time, it means either that the company was purchased by another company and they were all fired as part of the deal, or something really bad is about to hit the fan. For your sake, I hope it’s the first option.

      1. Jules the First*

        Or, as at one of my previous employers, one leaving prompted the others to reassess and decide it was past time to go and the business figured the chaos difference between one or two leaving and everyone leaving was not enough to make them beg. That was a fun year.

      2. Auntie Social*

        Or Hell Boss was bound to have been defrauding the company and her bosses didn’t notice, and the amount is so huge a monkey could have found it. Or one of them was in a verrry personal relationship with Hell Boss.

        1. tangerineRose*

          That’s what I think. I think the only reason your former boss kept her job for so long was because of corruption above her, and I hope at least some of the people who resigned did so because they were enabling her reign of terror.

    8. Close Bracket*

      So what I am hearing is that there are openings at the upper levels …

      three people are trying to move in without having let us know they were coming

      I’m confused about what this means. Doesn’t the lease tell you that?

      1. Seifer*

        Not always. When I moved into my current place, we had to book the freight elevator. We were allowed to book it at any time after the first date of our lease. I wonder if it’s just something like this, where three different groups of people are bickering over the freight elevator or something.

        1. That Girl From Quinn's House*

          When we moved we were coordinating cross-country, so we had to book a flight that got in on a day/time the leasing office was open, and let them know when we’d be arriving, so they’d have our move-in packet, keys, RFID fobs, etc., ready.

      2. Steve*

        The comment from last week was that the other employee (sorry, forgot their nickname) had really fucked things up and hadn’t told them about some of the rentals, so it could be as bad as we might imagine…

    9. Zephy*

      Oh man. Senior leadership peacing out all at once isn’t a great sign. On the bright side, if the company implodes, then you have a truthful AND neutral answer to why you left your last job. I hope you can get the hell off the hellmouth ASAP.

    10. Troutwaxer*

      Your senior management is bailing before Gozer emerges from the hellmouth in the form of a raging squirrel.

    11. E*

      I’m envisioning some sort of investigation brought up charges against management, or legal issues that they left rather than deal with. But hopefully in spite of the chaos currently, it will mean more effective management while you’re there.

    12. EddieSherbert*

      I have been gone for a couple weeks and missed A TON but I back tracked and got all caught up AND OH MY ABSOLUTE GOODNESS GRACIOUS WHAT ON EARTH. I was only gone two weeks! Haha?

      But seriously, crossing my fingers and holding my breath and wishing on a star or whatever that one of the jobs you applied for recently gets back to you with good news! The hellmouth somehow gets crazier and crazier and is just the clusterF*ck-mother-of-all-hellmouths at this point.

      Keep us posted! We’re rooting for you!

    13. Karen from Finance's Work is Full of Bees*

      I briefly wondered if I should be worried, but then remembered that I am already worried all of the time anyway.

      Honestly this is such a mood.

      Hang in there! Hopefully the changes in leadership bring some sense of sanity to your company? Fingers crossed!

    14. Nerdy Library Clerk*

      Uh-oh. Maybe it’s not just the complex you work at that’s about to go down the Hellmouth.
      May the Hell Bus stop and let you off at a sensible job soon!

  161. Argh!*

    My former supervisor is dead, so I reference my supervisors from my jobs prior to my prior job, but that’s going way way back in my work history now. Would you mention something like that in a cover letter? I have never before mentioned relationships to references in cover letters, but I’m starting to think I should.

    1. Gilmore67*

      I wouldn’t say anything at all in your cover about references. If and when they ask for references then say something to the effect that your former supervisor is dead and these other people will be the closest I have for references.

    2. The Man, Becky Lynch*

      Don’t mention anything until they ask you for references. Most don’t need a supervisor reference from every job you’ve held and many will just need employment verification if anything.

      If they have you fill out a form with former supervisors, I would list their name and then make a note saying “deceased” as a heads up. People die, people move away and people are no longer reachable, this is understood by any hiring manager that’s not absolutely out to lunch to say the least!

      My former boss has now passed but prior to that he was suffering from dementia. So I had that come up a couple of times and everyone was just like “oh dear that’s awful!” and I could confirm employment with W2s, paystubs and also just because I’m over the top, I can use another person from that place as a reference [who happens to be his wife but I also have a couple former coworkers to fall back on too, they could talk to more than just the boss!]

    3. Argh!*

      I asked because references have to be submitted at the same time as the cover letter & resume in automated application systems. In an interview, I never feel like talking about a past supervisor at all, let alone talking about someone dying! If I don’t do it in the cover letter, then it would be during the interview or not at all for the jobs I’ve applied for lately.

      1. The Man, Becky Lynch*

        Side eye engaged. They’re asking for references in the application system. Burn it with fire *growls*

        If they’re asking you to list out Supervisor or Reference from Previous Job, then just fill it in with Deceased. That way they won’t throw a flag or not let you submit it. There’s nobody that’s second in command or an HR contact name you could use instead?

        1. Argh!*

          They’re asking for references, not supervisors. The supervisors before and after my dead supervisor in that position both got fired! That place was administratively a hot mess, and I think there has been too much churning of personnel at the upper levels for anyone there to have known me at all!

          The head of personnel has retired there, but there may be someone who remembers me as a good supervisor available to speak for me. They wouldn’t know much about my day-to-day job, though. Thanks for the idea. I may check around.

  162. DCNative*

    I’ve been lurking on this blog for a while but finally have a question of my own to ask…Basically, I am hoping for feedback on whether I am right to feel slighted by the situation that is unfolding and for guidance on what I may be able to do about it.

    I’ve been working for my current employer for several years. About 18 months ago, I switched form a traditional Monday-Friday schedule to a Saturday-Monday schedule. This was done to accommodate my return to school but also because my employer very much needed weekend coverage. It might be important later on, so let me say at the outset that although I am in school I do not intend to leave my job, and my company and boss know this and have been fully on board.

    Well over the last 18 months, the work load has increased exponentially. Although I only work 3 days of the week, I handle roughly 8-12% of the work per quarter. There are 26 people on my team, so this is a significant amount of work for any one person to handle. I have always received excellent reviews, I am one of the most senior team members, and I have always felt incredibly valued.

    Because the work load has increased, our department head has asked other team members to switch their schedules to work 1 weekend day in exchange for a 25% raise.

    I am glad to have some help over the weekends and I’m genuinely happy for my team members who are going to be switching their schedules. BUT, I feel a little slighted because I am not getting the same salary bump. I will still be the senior staff member on duty, will be responsible for handling the most complex work, will handle training as new team members come on board, and will continue to work both weekend days.

    Am I wrong to feel demoralized about this? Any suggestions on how I should proceed? It seems like my company is saying that they value weekend work enough to now put a 25% premium on it, but I do not get the same benefit because I was the first to switch my hours.

    Thanks so much for any feedback.

    1. Rusty Shackelford*

      I bet you also don’t get the salary bump because your schedule was changed at your request, to meet your needs. But that doesn’t mean you can’t ask for it now.

      1. DCNative*

        Thanks. I think that is part of it but at the time that I switched, the company had been looking for weekend help for several years without any takers. So while it was to my benefit, the switch was ultimately because my employer also needed that coverage (otherwise I would have just resigned). I have asked for a raise but they are not able to match what they are giving to the others, though they do roughly 3% of the work per quarter to my 8-12%…

        1. SarahKay*

          I’m side-eyeing your employer hard right now. You’re the senior person and you’re paid less than everyone else?!? Just to check, do you mean that your annual salary is less (which is fairer if you’re working fewer hours) or that your actual hourly rate is less?
          If it’s the second then your employer sounds like they’re really taking advantage of you. If you left I bet they’d find the budget to take on someone new at the same rates as the rest – and given how much of the work you do, possibly they’d have to find two someones.
          And honestly, I would recommend polishing up your resume and at least having a look round to see what else is out there, because this does not sound like an employer who is treating you fairly.

          1. DCNative*

            Thanks, Sarah Kay. My actual hourly rate is less than the others…I’m going to be polishing up the resume!

            1. SarahKay*

              In that case, your employer sucks! That’s a disgraceful way for them to behave – not to mention stupid when it costs them one of their best employees.
              Best of luck with the resume.

    2. DCNative*

      One other piece that I should mention…I have recently learned that I am already paid about 18% less than at least other team members even though I have more experience in the field. This is likely due to poor negotiating on my part when I originally joined the company (when I joined, they offered me much more than I had been making previously so it felt uncomfortable to counter their initial offer). It just seems incredibly frustrating to be working so hard, taking on more work than many others, and being told that I am “the most valuable” employee but not have that reflected in my salary.

      1. Reba*

        When you next meet to discuss your performance with your boss, use phrases like “pay parity” and what you said here: “being told that I am the most valuable employee but not have that reflected in my salary.” And “I’m glad that my working weekends has worked for both me and Company. But as the senior staff member doing the most complex work during the weekend shifts (and doing 12% of the work in general), I would like to see my pay get aligned with the level of work I am doing, ESPECIALLY as more people come on the weekends who I know will be earning more than I do.”

        Then stop talking and see what they say.

        This is reasonable to ask about!

      2. Argh!*

        Part-timers are often paid less than full-time equivalent. It’s part of the trade-off. When you decide you want to work full time, that will give you either a great negotiating story or a great interview story. Either way, when you go back to full time you can justifiably raise your expectations.

    3. The Ginger Ginger*

      Are you working the same number of hours as the others, or does your Sat – Mon schedule also mean your hours are reduced? They may try argue that point.

      If you’re 18% below anyway, I’d at least try to get parity with that number. I think it’s reasonable to at least ask for some type of increase. It’s not super great to have a senior team member with such a big pay discrepancy for no reason. If you’re working the same number of hours I’d think you should get the same pay.

    4. Argh!*

      Since you didn’t want to work more hours, yes, you are wrong to take it personally. They are asking others to do more work in order to accommodate you rather than fire you and hire someone who can work 5 days per week. So it’s really a compliment that they value you enough to keep you on part-time despite really needing more staffing.

    5. Sleepytime Tea*

      So here’s the thing… you’re being given a special accommodation, no matter how you look at it. You’re working a 3 day week. You said if they didn’t give you that (even though they also needed weekend coverage) then you would have resigned when you went back to school. A year and a half ago you and your employer came to a mutually agreeable compromise. They need weekend coverage, you needed an alternate schedule, and you both agreed to this arrangement because it benefited you both.

      Now the situation is different for others in your department. They are still working a 5 day work week. They are being asked to give up a weekend day when it poses no benefit to them (they aren’t otherwise going to resign because of another commitment). In order for the company and those employees to also reach a mutually agreeable compromise, the company needed to offer them something of value. In this case, it’s a 25% salary increase.

      This is not a case of “I was first to switch my hours” and they didn’t give you a raise. This is a case of “I made a completely different arrangement with different perks under different circumstances over a year ago.” I agree, it totally sucks, because who doesn’t want a 25% raise? But no, I can’t say being demoralized is the productive way to look at this. The circumstances are simply not the same.

      If you feel you are underpaid based on the amount and complexity of the work you do, then definitely go to bat for that and make the argument, especially if this 25% increase is going to cause pay disparity. However, your argument can’t be that you deserve the raise because you’re already working a modified schedule which came about under totally different circumstances and is still not the same schedule that the rest of your team will be working.

  163. Jules the First*

    Ethics of counter-offering:
    The two highest performers on my team (of 8) resigned today. Both of them were very careful to say that they love their jobs and are sorry to be leaving, but they don’t feel that the company has offered concrete appreciation of their hard work (which I think is fair, given that we just finished the annual raise cycle and both were given just a couple %, despite getting glowing evals from me and everyone who works with them …note that we corporately are weird and I don’t get to input into raises). They are both leaving for jobs that are title bumps, big salary increases (15%), and more flexible office hours/work practices. I asked if there was anything we could do to change their minds, got a no, then dug deep and channeled my inner mentor so I could be genuinely excited for them. So far so good.

    Now my CEO asked why they were leaving, I shared the detailed feedback about them feeling underappreciated, and his response was “those things all sound fixable. Want me to talk to them?”

    My question: if this were you, would this be ok or too little too late from a company that already seemed uncaring?

    1. Rusty Shackelford*

      Too little, too late for me. But you should ask your CEO to fix the fixable things for those employees who haven’t left yet.

      1. Nicki Name*

        ^^^^ This. I would already have plans for my increased income/flex time, but I would be happier knowing that my actions were leading to improved conditions for the people I was leaving behind. I mean, unless I really hated those co-workers.

    2. Seifer*

      Too little, too late. My best friend just resigned (we work together) and one of the VPs has been badgering him to stay. My friend got a 50% raise and a new title with double the PTO and sick time, among other benefits. The VP assured him that they were already talking about making him a manager and they could give him… 7%. My friend told the VP that even if they gave him double his current salary, the problems here will still be the same. The VP was like, what problems????

      Yeah. My friend is running away.

      1. Donkey Hotey*

        my friend is running away

        Might want to consider joining them.

        Countering a 50% raise with 7%… I would be VERY hard-pressed to keep a straight face.

    3. Alianora*

      Echoing the other responses, if I felt consistently underappreciated and found a better job, I wouldn’t be thrilled to go back to my old job that only was willing to fix the issues after I told them I was leaving. I guess it’s worth a shot, but I wouldn’t take it if I were them.

    4. The Ginger Ginger*

      I’d say to your CEO that you already had the conversation about whether there was anything you could do to keep them so no on that front, but point out that you have other people who have now seen these 2 leave for remarkably greener pastures who would benefit from some solutions to those problems. If you lose 2 like that, it can start a tide, and your CEO should definitely want to prevent that. Not by TALKING though. By actually dealing with the feedback and implementing changes where reasonable/possible/applicable if the feedback is valid.

    5. montescristo1985*

      I don’t believe in counter-offers at all. Personally, it wouldn’t matter if the offer was even better than the new job. In fact, that might even be worse, because then I’d know that they COULD have done better, and yet chose to try and get by with as little as they could.

      So as a manager, I’d try and work on those things for the employees you still have, and let these others move on. Water is already under the bridge and this point, and it is best to let it go.

    6. Miss May*

      I’d say too little too late, sadly. If the company wasn’t able to compensate them then, why now? And really, its usually more than just money.

      1. London Calling*

        Indeed, and the reasons I’m job hunting have nothing whatsoever to do with money but everything to do with longstanding issues that have been raised at various times by various people, only to have it implied that we are the ones with the problem.

    7. CatCat*

      Too little too late. I’ve had counteroffers ostensibly to fix the problem… but the fact that the employer isn’t going to fix the problem until I’m already out the door is also a problem. Both times, I took the bird I had in hand instead.

    8. A Simple Narwhal*

      “I didn’t care when it was just a problem for you, but I totally care now that it’s a problem for me – wait where are you going? I said I care now!”

    9. Workerbee*

      Too little, too late. (And I like A Simple Narwhal’s response!)

      Perhaps the CEO really did just get clued in, but I bet those top performers spoke up about the “things that sound fixable” before, and weren’t listened to. It’s far too easy to brush employee concerns under the rug when the employees in question don’t seem to be going anywhere. Now, though–see if the CEO does his own due diligence and starts digging in to what people are experiencing.

    10. WellRed*

      Tooittle, too late. Maybe be proactive with the boss now. Before anyone else jumps ship (cause they will).

  164. Double A*

    Has anyone successfully gotten unemployment when they have resigned from a job due to a substantial change in duties?

    I am a teacher my program is closing at the end of June. Because I am union, I got an involuntary transfer to another site working with a complete different age group. While I am technically credentialed for the job, I have no experience working with the age group or training in curriculum for this group. My organization has not offered me any training or support in this transition so far. I applied for another non-union job with my organization, but they did not hire me for it (they are not required to).

    I applied for external jobs, and have one starting in mid-August. However, I will be unemployed for 6 weeks due to the nature of the school year, and don’t really have options for work during that time. I’ve already been on maternity leave this year, so I’ve already taken that financial hit so it would be really nice if I could have some kind of a cushion for this 6 weeks instead of just having to lose all my pay.

    Should I just file for unemployment and see what happens? Or am I just hosed because I technically have a job, both with my organization, and I have already been hired for another job?

    1. Veryanon*

      When does the job start in the new position? If there is a break in service because of the school year, you might be able to get unemployment. You might also be able to argue that you were constructively discharged from your position, although since your salary isn’t changing, that might not fly. It depends on the state you’re in. I’d say go ahead and apply and see what happens. You don’t have anything to lose.
      One other option is to see if you can pick up some kind of temp work through an agency or something along those lines just to keep an income stream coming in. Temp agencies are ideal for these kinds of short term job needs.

      1. Double A*

        I actually am taking about a 15% salary cut at my new job. Since I just had a baby, I opted for something that allows me better work/life balance than starting a new classroom teaching job which, even when you are experienced, requires putting a lot of extra hours in the first year.

        My current job ends June 30 and the new one starts mid-August.

        I’m also wondering if I should put my reasoning in my resignation letter as evidence that I’m resigning for potentially unemployment-qualifying reasons?

    2. Steve*

      AAM has dealt with this question somewhere… unfortunately I can’t remember where! Essentially I think that you’re fine to file for unemployment (the worst they can do is say No, right?) with the comment that essentially you were laid off from the job you agreed to.

    3. Sleepytime Tea*

      So… sure. You can file for unemployment and see what happens, but I wouldn’t hold my breath here. Your job duties themselves aren’t particularly changing. You’re teaching, you’re using a curriculum, you’re credentialed for it, etc. etc. etc. Teachers get transferred. What is changing is you don’t have experience with this particular age group. Experience is not the same as not being qualified, nor is the age group related to the specific duties of teaching. I have seen many teachers transferred from one age group to another and while many have strong preferences or more experience regarding the age group they work with, it’s kind of the nature of the situation. If I’m an analyst in IT for that supports teapot production, and then I get transferred to support coffee maker production but I’m still an IT analyst, that’s not a substantial change in job duties even if I’m not as familiar with coffee makers. (I know that’s an oversimplification, but you see where I’m going.)

      Don’t put anything in your resignation letter that is self-serving as a way to try and document your belief that you could be eligible for unemployment. Your resignation letter won’t be entered into evidence unless you request it to be, and it’s not an acknowledgment from the employer that they agree with your assessment of the situation or the law, and it only ends up looking unprofessional. Just write the standard “I’m resigning effective x date” letter.

      1. Double A*

        Yeah I think I probably don’t have much recourse here and I won’t qualify, but I definitely won’t get anything if I don’t try.

        It’s just been a pretty unbelievable couple of years in terms of what my organization has put me through (while pregnant)…the thing getting me through were my amazing coworkers, and the fact that once I came back from maternity leave finally things would be settled down…. but my organization has pushed out the coworkers who were really making the work worth it, and I found out 2 weeks before I came back that we were closing. It wasn’t my organization’s choice to close my program, but after giving us the whole “We value you and want to make sure to work with you to support you” speech when they told us about the closure, they have done absolutely nothing to make me feel like I had any support in the new position. I asked about if there could be any training or professional development and it was 3 months before my new supervisor even got in touch to talk about the transfer, by which time I was already in the acceptance phase with a new job. I guess they knew I was unhappy with the transfer and was looking elsewhere so they didn’t bother to see if they could retain me.

        In some states certification for teaching primary vs. secondary is totally separated; I didn’t even know I was credentialed to teach that age group until I got transferred there (because I got my certification in another state where they were separate). Also I’ve spent 10 years honing my skills working with teenagers, and the skills you need to teach foundational skills and manage young children are very different. I know people see teachers as widget babysitters, but we’re not.

        I’m a very good teacher but frankly this is probably the beginning of my exit from this profession.

  165. Anon25*

    I’m waiting on a phone interviewer to call. I’m worried he’s going to call just as I have given up, started my weekend and am out of the “zone”. It’s now 27 minutes late. I’ve emailed the administrative assistant but haven’t heard back. Advice?

    1. The Ginger Ginger*

      Do you have a phone number for the EA? After a half hour, I’d at least call to leave a voicemail or something – non-accusatory of course, but along the lines of “it seems like the scheduled time for our conversation didn’t work out for -person who was supposed to call-. I’m still interested in the role and would like to reschedule if possible. Please contact me at – phone number- or – email address – so we can try to reconnect”.

      That plus the email officially absolves you of responsibility at that point, at least in my book.

    2. Alianora*

      If he doesn’t call back in whatever amount of time you’re willing to wait, email the assistant again and tell them that unfortunately you can’t wait longer due to a prior commitment, but you would be happy to reschedule.

  166. Frustrated*

    My coworker leaves work a couple hours early to play golf with our manager two or three times a month. It’s just expected that I cover our work statement in his absence. Will I come across as petty if I ask our manager if I can have an equivalent amount of comp time since I’m covering the office while they go play? It seems pretty unfair to me.
    Note: they don’t ask me to join them, and I don’t want to (not a golf fan). If it helps for context, I am a female in my 20s and my coworker and boss are men in their 50s.

    1. OtterB*

      Ugh, this is fishy in a couple of ways but hard to push back on. How firm are your normal times and is there any WFH? In other words, is it possible that coworker is making up the time in other ways and it’s just not obvious to you? I don’t know that I’d ask for equivalent comp time, but I think it would be reasonable to ask for equivalent flex time.

      1. Frustrated*

        We both work from home on occasion for emergent issues, but I definitely end up doing more of that than he does. I like the flex time phrasing- it’s a little softer of a way to bring it up. Thanks!!

    2. TheRedCoat*

      I would definitely push back on that, or ask for something equivalent to do with the boss. He’s getting an afternoon off an a lot of 1×1 facetime/mentoring, and you’re getting the short end of the stick.

    3. A Simple Narwhal*

      Ugh gross. I have real doubts if he would approve this but I feel like some push back is required.

      Golf has been a real hot topic around here lately.

    4. WellRed*

      Way to bury the lede! Two middle age dudes golfing while the young female misses out on potential relationship building with the boss that coworker gets? And picks up the slack? Generations of working women shudder.

      1. valentine*

        It seems like obvious discrimination.

        But have they mentioned coverage or does the thing need to be done so you did it and keep doing it?

  167. just venting*

    I work for a small nonprofit. When I started here, staff birthdays were celebrated. We’d decorate the co-worker’s office, and the organization paid for a small baked good and a card. In the 3 years I’ve been here, we’ve increased in staff size, and so our director decided that the org would just buy a card for the birthday. Which was disappointing, but understandable – as a nonprofit, we need to save money. Now, recognition of birthdays has disappeared completely, and the only explanation from our “HR Person” (an admin staff who holds a few HR responsibilities) is that someone complained about birthdays being celebrated, thus the director decided to not recognize them at all for anyone. I know it’s not really a huge deal, but it’s something that made me feel like part of a team and good about our office culture. I miss it and it makes me sad that something small which boosted morale was taken away. Thanks for letting me vent!

    1. OtterB*

      Some years ago I worked for a small nonprofit that had its dysfunctions, but one thing I thought it did well was managing these kind of celebrations. The rule was, if you wanted to celebrate it (whether “it” was your birthday, your kid’s graduation, a sports team win, whatever), you brought in treats and put them in the kitchen. Maybe something like that would work for you?

    2. Rey*

      My office has a birthday sign that we hang on the respective person’s door. One person is in charge of the whole thing, so they track the birthday calendar to hang it up and take it down on the right days. It creates a nice celebratory mood cause everyone says happy birthday when they see it throughout the day. And it doesn’t cost anything after the initial investment because we use the same sign over and over again. I suppose if there was someone who didn’t want their birthday celebrated, they would just tell the person who’s in charge of the sign so it didn’t get put up.

      1. Seven hobbits are highly effective, people*

        We similarly have a little “happy birthday” fabric pennant banner that I assume one of the craftier types in the office made. It gets hung up on/near your desk on your birthday by someone on the social committee. (They have an optional yearly “social fund” collection and also do things like plan work baby showers and coordinate group get well soon cards for ill employees. I pay in but am not involved with the social planning stuff.)

        The only catch with things like this that involve re-used birthday decorative objects is when you get two people with the same birthday, you have to figure out how to “share” them. We’re small, low-turnover, and don’t currently have that problem, but it’s something to consider if you go that route.

        I don’t really care if my birthday gets celebrated at work or not, as long as it doesn’t result in me having to do a bunch of extra “birthday stuff” myself to celebrate it. (For example, I’m not invested enough in eating birthday cupcakes on my birthday to buy them and bring them in. I’m not opposed to the concept, and if other people want to do that for their own birthdays I have no objection, but I am opposed to making a special trip to the store during what is already a pretty busy week.)

  168. Em from CT*

    Interview-related question!

    I just got called for an interview (yay!!) for a position that’s basically the exact niche job I’m doing now, except for more money. Here’s my question: the position is in California, and I’m in NYC.

    The interviewer offered that we could do it over the phone, but said she was hoping I could be there in person. I feel like this has been covered here before (I’m about to go look and see if Alison has thoughts) but I’d love others’ opinions. I’m 99.9% sure I can’t get travel reimbursement, for what it’s worth—this would be with a state agency. Pros and cons of interviewing in person?

    1. Combinatorialist*

      Would there be a second interview in person if you did it over the phone? I certainly wouldn’t move across the country without visiting so if you are going to go in person sometime, it makes sense to go for the interview

      1. Em from CT*

        I don’t know about a second round yet—so this is wise. I think I will try to go!

    2. The Ginger Ginger*

      I do know that interviewing remotely when other candidates interview in person can put you at a disadvantage. So you would really want to nail that interview and present extremely strong application materials. If this is a job you’d move for if you were offered it, I agree that it would be worth it to go interview in person and take the opportunity to look into the area you’d be living in.

      1. Em from CT*

        Thank you. Yeah, I’d in theory have to move, and I’ve never really been to the city in question, so—good advice about seeing it beforehand!

    3. Alianora*

      Cons: Expense (obviously), travel time, having to take time off work, potentially being flustered from traveling across the country
      Pros: You get to see the office, the interviewers get a better sense of who you are, you get a better sense of the interviewers, probably more face time (although maybe not with a state agency), you get to see what the area you would be moving to is like

      1. Em from CT*

        Yes! I think your list is good… I probably need to go for the pros, even despite the cons. Thank you!

    4. Zephy*

      Pros:
      – easier to see if you and the interviewer connect in-person
      – get to see the facility and your prospective coworkers
      – you’ll be more memorable to the hiring manager if they can put a face to the name

      Cons:
      – if you can’t get travel reimbursement, flying across the country and staying in a hotel (if you can’t crash with friends/family) on short notice is going to be $$$
      – you would have to burn at least one sick/PTO day most likely, maybe more depending on how well you handle air travel and jet lag
      – idk if you also manage to catch a cold whenever you fly but i do and that sounds like a bad time

      Also, NYC is expensive, but so is Cali – are you sure “more money” is REALLY more money, comparatively?

      1. WellRed*

        +1 on the money question. Do you have a car in NYC? Cause you’ll need one in most of California.

        1. Em from CT*

          Thank you! Yes, I’ll definitely have to do some research on cost of living in Cali vs. NY. And I do have a car, at least, so that’s one expense I wouldn’t have to budget for.

      2. Em from CT*

        Thank you—this is a really great list! I’d definitely have to do some more research on the money question, and I don’t relish the idea of taking a day off, but it seems like it’d be worthwhile, nonetheless.

  169. staying calm-ish*

    My grandboss has heard from a contact in their network that someone I manage is looking for a new role (a relatively junior employee, a bit lacking in overall career direction). My grandboss won’t give me any more details, but damn, this is terrible timing. My department is already understaffed (I’m currently hiring but it’s taking a while). I can definitely understand why this employee might want to move on (she’s been here for quite a while, she hasn’t demonstrated the skills needed for more responsibility, she hasn’t responded well to coaching, she’s a little unsure what to do next with her career, etc.).

    I think she COULD succeed and learn and get more responsibility (I see small glimmers from time to time of what she’s capable of but they get kind of lost in other performance problems)… but I think I have to let that go because ultimately she doesn’t really seem hungry for it and her other performance problems are holding her back.

    So, I have two questions:
    – Do I try to work with her again to do the coaching she needs to expand her responsibility or just let her move on? (For what it’s worth, my boss who really likes her as a person still thinks it might be time to let her move on…)
    – If I’m prepared to let her move on, is there a gracious way to talk to her about her rumoured job search and see if she would be willing to keep me updated about her plans?

    1. Zephy*

      I would pretend you don’t know anything about her job search and let her start that conversation, if it ever happens.

    2. Kathenus*

      You treat her as you would any other employee. Coach if she needs coaching, expand her responsibility if that’s what you would do with another equivalent person, etc. There’s nothing wrong with her looking, she should not be penalized for doing so, and you don’t know if she will leave or not. Think of how you’d want to be treated if it were you looking and your manager found out, and do the same for your employee. Having been the employee in this case before, it’s rotten of the grandboss’s contact to have shared the information, don’t compound that by imposing consequences on the employee.

  170. Amber Rose*

    I just want to say that, in the absence of one of my coworkers, we have completely redecorated her office to look like it’s straight off the set of Harry Potter. There are acceptance letters pouring from the ceiling on fishing wire. There are Gryffindor banners everywhere. We lightly covered up the picture of her kids with a picture of the three main characters (it’ll pull right off, no worries). And we put a near life-size picture of the Fat Lady right on her door.

    It’s really funny, and she’s a huge fan so it’ll probably make her first day back from vacation a good one.

    Also it’s REALLY funny.

    1. Eleanor Shellstrop*

      Oh my god this is INCREDIBLE, you sound like the best coworkers! I would probably die of happiness if someone did this at my office

      1. Amber Rose*

        It’s fun! It’s the best kind of “prank” since it’s designed to make the person laugh.

    2. Catsaber*

      That sounds amazing! I decorated the office of a coworker who had gone on her honeymoon – with pictures of cats doing yoga (I found some “Cat Yoga” books in the clearance section of Half Price Books and inspiration struck me). It looked ridiculous. Also she hates cats but she thought it was funny, and it made her feel special.

    3. The Man, Becky Lynch*

      This sounds so fun and a great “team bonding” experience IMO. This is the stuff that I can really get behind, since you know what she likes and will be appreciated.

  171. Eleanor Shellstrop*

    The guy repairing our printer at my office just made a (positive, but very unsolicited) comment about my appearance and now I’m feeling incredibly uncomfortable. I know I didn’t do anything to bring it on. It wasn’t overly sexual. But still. Why am I THE ONE who is left feeling embarrassed when it was his comment?
    Luckily I was quick enough to say “Thanks, but kind of a weird thing to say at a workplace!” before he left, but wish I could have made it clearer that it was Not Ok. Ugh.

    1. Rainy days*

      Ugh. Hate this. But good for you for addressing it in the moment! I always freeze up and can’t figure out what to say.

      1. Catsaber*

        Me too, my knee-jerk reaction is to laugh, which is just the worst thing I can do because then they think it’s okay. But I always laugh and smile when I get nervous – I hate it! I get the biggest, most stupid smile when I get nervous.

  172. ReadyToGo*

    I’ve been at my job for about 8 months now and things have not been going well, but I figured I would truck on and see things through. Recently, the scope of my job unexpectedly changed. I am not doing much of what I was hired to do (or have much background in). I’ve also started to notice more and more some undesirable traits from my boss. Most recently, I overheard her gossiping about me. Overall, it’s a situation that I want out of and have been applying like crazy. If nothing else, it has made me realize a few red flags I should’ve seen before–why the constant turnover in this role most especially. I’ve got a few promising leads lined up and I’m putting it out in the Universe that my time to put in my 2 weeks is quickly coming. Here’s what I’m debating… how to handle my exit interview whenever that happens (goodness I hope soon). Would it be a bad idea to air out the fact that my boss is a gossip? How can I bring this up?

    1. Workerbee*

      I think that depends with how comfortable you feel with HR or whomever is doing the exit interview. Some people give their real reasons, others just say an opportunity came up that they couldn’t refuse. My current workplace is such that I won’t even bother telling them why I’m leaving when I do, because I know they don’t really care; they’re not trying to change things we tell them about now.

      Here’s to good vibes coming from the Universe!

  173. Errrgh*

    I received a job offer that I rejected for a significant reason. They’ve come back at me asking for more details to see if there’s room to negotiate. I was surprised, since they were pretty adamant during the interview that the reason it won’t work for me is not going to be able to change on their side. Now they’re indicating that there could be some flexibility.

    So I just spent a stressful period of time giving them those details. I’m unused to doing this and don’t welcome the stress, but it occurred to me that I haven’t advocated for myself very well in the past, and why shouldn’t I ask for what I want in a job?

    Wish I could stop feeling weird about this whole process, though.

    1. PBJnocrusts*

      Same here I’ve never been good at advocating for myself, it feels strange and unnatural to do. Good for you for doing it !

  174. Glen Coco*

    I am having so much anxiety right now about turning down a job offer earlier today. I was initially approached about an opening by a former colleague and decided that I wanted to learn more about it. I was travelling for nearly a month after applying and followed up lwith my contact when I returned home. She said the manager would contact me the following week for an interview when I hadn’t heard for over 3 weeks I followed up again and this time was scheduled for an interview the following week. The interview went well and the job sounded interesting but was very specialized and I was afraid of going into something so niche early in my career. They made me an offer earlier this week and after AGONIZING over it I decided that this was not the right move for me right now. I emailed the manager to tell her I would be declining the job. Most of our correspondence has been through email including their offer, and it seems to be her preferred contact method. She wrote back asking if I could elaborate on my reason for declining, and so I replied that I found the decision very difficult but decided that it was not the right move for me at this time. I haven’t heard anything else from them. My anxiety has been driving me nuts all day with questions of whether this was the wrong decision and what if I have burned a bridge and an opportunity like this will never come along again and I will be stuck in my current job forever. Can anyone relate to this? It’s exhausting.

    1. Outside Earthling*

      Yes, I’ve been in this situation and it’s stressful. I needed some distance from my decision to see it but I made the right decision and I would bet that you have too given that you’ve given it a lot of deliberation. At the time it feels like closing a door, but you came to your decision for a reason (maybe more than one) and having made that choice, I say trust yourself and go with it. You made the best choice you could with the information available at the time. You can’t do any more than that. And yes, you will have other opportunities.

    2. Errrgh*

      I’m going through the opposite, and wish the hiring manager hadn’t asked me for my reasons. I’ve now got to sit with wondering what they’ll say.

      I DO honestly, utterly believe that simply by going through the whole job interview process and getting an offer puts good energy out in the universe to come back to you. The vibe is out there for your next great job just around the corner.

    3. WellRed*

      You’ve declined their offer. What sort of additional follow up are you expecting?

  175. Old Cynic*

    I’m curious for thoughts/comments about how to deal with being a “jack of all trades, master of none” situation (even though “master of none” is innaccurate). I guess, how to hype my experience which may be limited in a single area

    I’m about 5 years away from social security but we’re also realizing that now is the right time to fold our 20 year old small business for various reasons. I’m not looking for a executive level management job but rather something with less stress to tide me over. (is there a low stress job? ha!)

    One of the areas I’d like to focus on (for example) is accounting/bookkeeping, but it’s only comprised about 20% of my time and interviewers seem to think that’s not enough experience. I’m not sure how to push back on this point. Any ideas?

    1. LaDeeDa*

      Jack of all trades title (office manager)
      Bookkeeping/ Account payable/receiving
      * Managed books for X …
      * processed all Payments for X number of customers
      * whatever
      Payroll
      *Managed payroll for X number of employees
      * Processed tax blah blah blah

      Basically, break out what is normally a job in itself under your generic title… does that make sense?

      1. Old Cynic*

        it makes sense, yeah.
        The response I’m getting is “oh, you have 35 vendors in your payables system? we’re looking for a candidate with 60-70.” So I think I’m trying to find a way to diplomatically say “Seriously?!?”

        1. E*

          I think you could diplomatically point out that the accounting was a (significant) part of your job running a small business. Now that you’re looking to focus entirely on acct/bookkeeping you can absolutely easily manage more vendors because that would be your sole focus of the new job.

    2. MoopySwarpet*

      I like LaDeeDa’s recommendation of breaking out the relevant experience and highlighting it if you can.

      Are you actually presenting the accounting experience as a percentage of your time? Because I would think that as an owner, you’re putting in way more dedicated hours and therefore actually have MORE actual experience than a full time bookkeeping person that is employed by a company.

      I was reading how in 8 working hours, the average worker is only doing 3-5 hours of productive work. The rest of the time is office chit chat, personal whatever, general inefficiency. As an owner, you don’t have that luxury. If you are putting in a 10 hour day with 2 of those being accounting related, you are probably working closer to 40-70% of an average person’s time at accounting because you’re actually working super steady at it during those 2 hours. If you feel like your actual work is up to the level of what you are applying for (I assume you wouldn’t apply otherwise), I’d consider inflating that number a bit.

    3. Former Retail Manager*

      I’m not sure that accounting, or even bookkeeping, would be low stress, but let’s assume it is. If you were the business owner, presumably you are well versed in QuickBooks. And if you aren’t, you can become a “QuickBooks Expert” via online courses pretty quickly. I would focus your resume on the things that most small business owners have to deal with (payroll, QuickBooks entry of income and expenses, bank reconciliations, possibly preparation of the business tax return or a Schedule C etc.)All of this would help you in obtaining an entry level bookkeeping or accounting job by showing that you know the basics and are capable of learning pretty quickly. I also would try to skirt anyone’s request to quantify your time into a percentage and instead focus on what you did and accomplished. If you found ways to streamline processes or improve your bottom line by analyzing your cost accounting data, mention that. You also don’t say how much you want to make. Without an accounting degree or CPA license, I think you’re realistically looking at entry level positions with an emphasis on repetitive data entry type tasks. If that’s fine with you, you may want to focus your efforts on applying with very small CPA firms with only 1 or 2 CPA’s and minimal support staff and maybe even be open to working part-time for a while. I have to be honest, if you are 5 years away from SS, you are at least 57, and there is not a huge market for non-degreed bookkeepers or accounting personnel in your age group, which is why I suggest a small firm or other small business because they tend to be more open to hiring individuals whose qualifications may not perfectly “check the box.” Best of luck in this next chapter!

  176. Quiet Observer*

    Random question of curiosity about appropriateness and office boundaries…

    Is it odd that a former employee who hasn’t worked here in over 3 years:
    A. Came back for lunch with her former peers/friends at 12:30. and
    B. Is STILL here wandering around and chatting at 3:00pm in what can best be described as a yoga appropriate outfit?

    FWIW I work in a non-profit that, while not too uptight, still thinks blue jean Fridays is a big benefit.

    As I don’t supervise the folks who are interacting with the former employee, I feel no need to do anything about this but it sure is entertaining.

      1. Quiet Observer*

        Yeah, that’s the weird part…she has a full time job. But then I think I overheard her reviewing a recent break up in. excruciating. detail. So maybe she needed some emotional support?

      1. Flyleaf*

        3pm yoga class was probably cancelled. Killing some time before meeting someone else at 430 at the smoothie bar.

    3. Rectilinear Propagation*

      Whether part A is weird might depend on your office but I’ve worked places where this wouldn’t be strange. I used to work someplace where this happened once in a blue moon.

      It’s that she chose to stick around for half the work day that’s weird.
      1) Are the people in charge OK with the employees chatting with guests for that long?
      2) Why would you want to spend your day some office during your free time?

      As far as the clothing goes, athleisure wear is a thing now so it’s normal to wear workout/yoga looking clothes out and about. If your office doesn’t interact with the public at all, I get that it might feel awkward but I don’t think you can expect the odd guest to conform to the office dress code (even if they used to work there).

    5. Glomarization, Esq.*

      Enh, some people make deep, life-long friendships at work, and it’s Friday. Sounds like they have had a lot of stuff to catch up about. To me, this looks like a workplace with a nice work-life balance.

  177. Laura*

    I start my new job on Monday!

    I’m nervous / excited and can’t quite believe it’s happening. I worked at my last company for nearly 9 years, it was the first employer I had a proper grown-up full-time job with.

    Now I’ve got to learn to fit in somewhere new! It’s daunting.

    The dress code is ‘casual comfortable’. I’m going to spend the weekend working out what to wear so that I look neither overdressed or like a total slob!

    1. LaDeeDa*

      Congratulations!! Wear dress pants with a more casual top and a cardigan, and then look at what everyone else is wearing. That is the man equivalent of khakis and a polo :)

    2. Reilly and Jonesy*

      My go-to is what I call a soft suit: black pants, nice blouse, and a cardigan (usually black, but I just like black). Khakis will also probably be fine, or a knee-length dress with a tasteful neckline. Good luck!!

    3. The Man, Becky Lynch*

      I’ve been there! It’ll be a great adventure, you’re going to have a great time learning the new job. It’ll take a little bit to feel “at home” anywhere you land, so just keep that in mind as you dive in =)

  178. anon for this*

    Next week is my 5-year work anniversary. In the time I’ve been here, I’ve seen other people receive a framed plaque and choose something from a gift list. I haven’t heard anything about it though and my office is terrible at keeping secrets anyway, so now I feel like it’s going to come and go without anyone noticing or doing anything. I work in non-profit and they eliminated our already meager Christmas gift this year too. It’d just be nice to be recognized…

  179. Reilly and Jonesy*

    I’m in my mid-30s with two BS in architecture and accounting. I’ve been temping for over a year, and have been at my current gig for three months (original contract said 6 months but, you know, temp contracts are weird). In my 20s I taught ESL in Korea because I couldn’t find anything stateside (I graduated college in December 2008, not a great time). At that time what limited stuff I had was at my parents’ house, so it was pretty easy to pick up and leave. I like my current job but the company is on a hiring freeze and my position my not exist in six months. I’ve been looking into go back into teaching abroad. I live on my own and it would be quite an undertaking to sell what I don’t need and store things I can’t part with. I have an interview with an international school that would pay more than my current salary. I loved teaching but part of me thinks this is just my capricious nature going ‘hey, you know what would be cool?’ Either decision would not affect my financial standing much. Am I going through a 1/3 life crisis or should I pursue going overseas again?

    1. Overeducated*

      Is there anything wrong with it being your capricious nature and doing something because it sounds cool? Would there be a cost to you personally or professionally if you went abroad again, apart from selling/storing your stuff? Because if it’s just feeling like you ought to settle down, noooo, life is too short. (I say this as someone who settled for family reasons, and I love my family, but miss being able to follow exciting opportunities.)

  180. blue bunny*

    Any suggestions to liven up / make a cubicle more comfortable aside from desk plants?

    1. Reilly and Jonesy*

      I have a very colorful coffee cup, it’s silly but it brightens my day up. And there’s always the good ol’ red stapler.

    2. Catsaber*

      I like to get super cheap little string lights from the Target dollar section. They are soft and add a nice glow and some decoration.

      A photo of a beautiful landscape or some artwork that makes you feel peaceful is also good.

    3. My gov't name is Jen*

      These may be technically past tense in design but I have a letter board. It’s the kind where you can plug in letters, between the folds of the felt, to create sentences or phrases. Because I make statements with my coffee cups, I also use the letter board to do the same thing my co-workers like stopping by to see what the new phrase of the day or the week is.

      You can go order one from Etsy in different colors of frame and felt or you can just pick one up at Michaels, Jo-Ann fabrics, Hobby Lobby.

    4. animaniactoo*

      As much as you can, get things in styles that are more in line with you and your aesthetic sense. Staplers are generic, but if you like red, get a red stapler. My co-worker has a wood keyboard that’s the last word in cool and I frequently eye the stuff in her cube with interest.

    5. E*

      -the sometimes controversial candy dish
      -colored sticky notes/pens
      -a photo of your pet or favorite scenic view

    6. Aphrodite*

      I have a private office so this won’t all be applicable to a cubicle but I do not turn on the fluorescent lights (hate them) and instead have two lovely table lamps with incandescent bulbs. I don’t use them every day but when I do I love the light. I also have a lot of books on shelves and a few personal items. I found some oversized artwork and photographs that I love too. I’ve been here for about 1 1/2 years and I am very fussy about what I keep around me–never too much!–so the decorating is slow but I enjoy it.

      Come October, I put up autumn decorations of all kinds and after Thanksgiving I go into Christmas decorating with a tabletop tree, a lovely dried wreath and more. (The last three months of the year I go all out; the other nine months are much more on the minimal side.)

      1. Trixie*

        Yes to lighting! The simplest lamp does so much for lighting. Also, I’ve seen some cute corner shelf units for cubicles which helps create height.

    7. LQ*

      This may not be a super popular opinion, but I have lots of really colorful giant post its with project work that needs to get done on it. It’s very worky so it’s not personal, but it’s much brighter than just cube or office walls. (I’m not a giant share me/pictures kind of person but the giant colorful posits create a little illusion there that is very useful.)

    8. The Man, Becky Lynch*

      This is assuming you don’t have any rules about decor of course.

      Holiday decor if you’re into that, things that you can switch out. A couple cute knicknacks that you enjoy [a snow globe perhaps or in my case, I have wrestling themed things, just a couple, nothing OTT].

      I bought myself a desk organizer that’s colorful. If you have a corkboard or something, cute thumbtacks are fun. Magnets if you have a magnet board. I print things off on colored paper sometimes for my notes that I pin up. Cute office supplies.

      If you have a calendar, one with kittens or puppies or sloths, etc!

  181. Too much pink*

    I have an coworker who wears pink every day, decorates everything in her cube in pink, always orders pink folders and supplies…you name it.
    I feel like Pepto Bismol has thrown up all over her cube and I’m sick of looking at it.
    I realize this is a lowstakes thing and more my problem than hers, but as a woman who is trying to be taken seriously in a male-dominated field, I think this isn’t helping her. I’m also female and have heard the guys in the office snicker about the “Pink Lady” and such. Do I tell her?

    1. RandomU...*

      Nope… I’m not sure that you can here. I don’t think there’s anything better or worse than being “Pink Lady” vs. “Fantasy Football Guy” vs. “Free lunch Phil” vs. any other nickname that comes out of people’s quirks.

      I agree with you that this sounds yucky to have to look at.

    2. berries*

      Is it specifically pink that’s bothering you??? If her entire cube was blue because that’s her favorite color would you hate looking at that?

    3. animaniactoo*

      I don’t think that it will make a difference. If anything, it sounds like she’s staking her right to be in the field AND be her pink-loving self.

      However, if you really feel the association isn’t helping her and will carry over to you as another female, the best I can tell you is to a) avoid wearing or using pink things yourself (other than post-it notes) and b) when you talk about it to anybody else in the company do it from the perspective that “Yeah, I’ve never seen anybody that dedicated to a color! It’s a little odd to me, but as long as she does [x skill] just fine it’s a “whatever” to me. She seems to be something of a rockstar with [y process]”. The keys here are that you’re pointing out dedication to a color as the odd thing – because if everything were red or blue, it would actually be equally odd – not the fact that it’s all pink. And then you’re following it up by emphasizing her ability to do the job and framing it as trivial compared to that.

    6. The Man, Becky Lynch*

      Nope, not your circus, not your monkey!

      “The Boys” snickering about it or acting like it’s funny is just them being jerks tbh. That’s nothing to do with being in a male dominated field, that has to do with working with people who haven’t fully grown up and learned to accept that a woman works there with them and is firmly planting her classically feminine ways in their face to show them she’s there and not going anywhere.

      I’d like a man to try me about my decor or “womanly” ways. I’m not trying to “blend in” with “the boys”, I’m here, deal with it. I do what I want.

      Signed, another woman surrounded by men. These men though are actual adults who appreciate each other and me for who we are, not for our preferences in color or style.

    7. Lilysparrow*

      The only appropriate way I can think of for you to address this with her, is to see if she’s overheard what they call you when they’re snickering about you behind your back.

      Because they are. That’s what boys who believe that girls have cooties do.

      If it wasn’t the pink office supplies, it would be something else. She isn’t the problem.

    8. Batgirl*

      I honestly think it’s a form of sexism to sneer at things female-coded, like the colour pink. This is why I love Legally Blonde because it deconstructs that stuff so well. If I were in your shoes I’d have to say something to the clique of men making fun of her. Like, does that mean they can’t wear cerain shades without being called little boy blue? Or enjoy beer without being called frat guy? It’s ridiculous. I would mentally reframe it as she’s colour coding her stuff so that no one takes it and that she simply has different tastes to you. You could buy her something generally within her taste in a different colour, or a less sickly shade of pink if you want to just dilute a colour you’re not fond of..but definitely don’t gender police her.

      1. valentine*

        it’s a form of sexism to sneer at things female-coded, like the colour pink.
        Yes.

        If you don’t respect Elle Woods or Barbie pretty in pink, you don’t respect them, period. They are not the enemy. Kyricism is.

    9. Seven hobbits are highly effective, people*

      Maybe it’ll help if you reframe it as similar to the person who decks out everything in their favorite sports team’s colors? That person also exists in the working world, and their cube also looks ridiculous, and it’s also not really on you to do anything about it. If she asks you for feedback, give it, but presumably she’s noticed that she’s the only one in the office doing this and is cool with that. (I find the College Sports Team people more exhausting, just because sooner or later you’ll get two people from Rival College Sports Teams, and then all kinds of little pranks start happening…)

  182. C.J. Cregg*

    Looking for advice on a small thing: I just got an offer that I’m really excited to accept. Before I got the offer, I was a little overenthusiastic in giving them a timeline for when I could start — I really need to start about 2 weeks later than I originally specified, which is about 5-6 weeks from now instead of 4.

    Any advice on how to gracefully convey that I was mistaken about my initial idea of a start date? They have mentioned a few times that they’re not in a rush and don’t have a particular timeline in mind because I’m filling a new position, not replacing somebody.

    1. Anonymous Educator*

      I don’t know about the best way to put it, but I would definitely go with conveying it to them as soon as possible rather than delaying any more. Just admit here that you were mistaken and apologize for the inconvenience.

    2. The Man, Becky Lynch*

      Bring it up now, since you’re in the offering phase. You spoke “before” the offer and therefore things are still always subject to change! Saying that upon properly calculating the time needed pre-start date, you have realized it’s a couple weeks later than you originally anticipated. It sounds like they will probably be just fine with that! Things come up from Interview when you say “Oh I can start July 1!” and the offer a week or more later usually and you say “Things have shifted and it’s actually July 12!” you know? So unless theyr’e absolutely unreasonable, they know that this is standard for new-hires.

      I’ve only ever worked with one tyrant where this would be a deal breaker and believe me when I say “tyrant” but he was also filling positions that needed to be filled immediately. For jobs that we have already taken X amount of weeks to fill, we’ve had people need to start a bit later and it’s been no skin off our noses.

  183. HamlindigoBlue*

    It’s been a pretty good work week because a toxic coworker has been on PTO. It is amazing how much of a difference it makes when you remove the negative energy. It was almost like a mini vacation for our entire department.

    1. Donkey Hotey*

      Oh MY yes. I have a co-worker who sits no more than four feet from me who is… as far to one side of the political center as I am to the opposite side. Dude went on a vacation and my productivity and general outlook has skyrocketed. Enjoy!

      1. HamlindigoBlue*

        It’s pretty incredible, isn’t it? I’ve had annoying coworkers before, but I’ve never had the pleasure (?) of working with someone who is so negative before. I really didn’t realize it was this bad until this week when it felt like a huge weight was lifted.

    2. Utoh!*

      I’ll take your toxic coworker on vacation and raise you a toxic coworker who announced they are retiring the end of July!!! I felt the entire company give a cheer!

      1. HamlindigoBlue*

        Nice! I fantasize about the day mine resigns, even though I know I’m more likely to win Powerball than it is for toxic coworker to leave. I’ll be celebrating your countdown with you!

        1. Helvetica*

          It really makes a difference! I have a coworker who I work on a team with and he can be rather toxic at times, and makes a lot of mistakes. Whenever he’s off my moral is a lot higher, even if we’re crazy busy. I’ve noticed that I can get my work done on time when someone fills in for him. What a coincidence! I can’t wait for my department transfer!

  184. Anon in need of a vacation*

    I’m going crazy stressing over my vacation for next week. Office is not helping.

    So I’m part of a compliance team spread across 2 offices, that supports 7 in total. Our team handles the commission checks for the company ICs, and making sure that they’re in compliance with all legal and internal rules that they must follow for what they do. My specific job is just related to the commissions. Last year our team was downsized from 4 members to 3 to save money (though we really need 4). Well, 3.5 weeks ago the member that had taken on most of the load in the downsizing put in her 2 weeks and was gone 1.5 weeks ago. I had already put in for the first week of June off and it had been approved.

    So while we were waiting for a new hire, most of the empty position’s work was dumped on the other remaining member of our compliance team. And they did hire someone this week. Who starts next week training with our other member. While I’m out.

    So I have zero coverage. I had resigned myself to that. But now there looks like there’s going to be emergency commission changes and our other member won’t be able to do them because she’s doing four jobs AND training (Fourth is for her office’s admin who is on maternity leave).

    I have one admin in my office that I trust. She’s not compliance so technically shouldn’t be doing commissions, but I gave her my login and I’ve trained her as best I could in two days so she can do the emergencies, but only for this one IC who came to us ahead of time to warn us. She’ll also be semi-processing checks as they come in to let the ICs have their commissions if they’re ready.

    The biggest problem with that is she’s only there the first half of the week. She had ALSO put in for vacation and had it approved. That leaves two other admins who don’t have access to everything needed for even the semi-processing of checks (which good admin does already), and whom I also don’t trust to get it right. And the manager also had ZERO clue about what needs to be done and is willing to hand ICs their checks, d*** the consequences if it means keeping them happy.

    Also, have I mentioned that one of the admins here has stolen one of my computer monitors before and I’m scared she’ll take advantage of us being gone to try again? (We’re planning on hiding our monitors, which is ridiculous that we have to do.)

    I have no clue how NOT to stress about the mess I’ll come back to.

    1. LQ*

      Hiding your computer monitors? A coworker stealing a computer monitor? I am ….agog….what? Like oh lululu I think I’ll just take this. That’s danger danger you live in a world on fire level stuff.

      1. Anon in need of a vacation*

        Yeah, I talked about it in last week’s open thread, iirc? It was under a different name. Near the bottom of the thread. She had her manager’s permission, but NOT IT’s permission and they have final say. And she only brought it back because I kicked up a fuss.

      1. Anon in need of a vacation*

        Thanks.

        And oh, another juicy bit. The way they hired the new person sounds like a textbook version of How To Make Bad Hires. We actually know her as she’s one of our ICs. Good Admin and I think she has No Clue what she’s getting into and won’t last.

    3. WellRed*

      Can you lock your monitor to your desk,like with a bike chain and lock? I’m laughing as I type this, but…

  185. Business name blank*

    Calling all creative types (hell, and non-creative types) – help me with a new business name, please! I’ve hit a brick wall…repeatedly…so much that people are starting to stare ;)

    All I need is a name that means ‘simple.’ ‘Easy’ will also work.

    The ultimate goal, I guess, is for people who land on the website to think, “Yep, I’m in the right place” (as opposed to, say, “WailingStarfruitLiver? WTF? I’ve clicked on the wrong link, this can’t be the right company”).

    I don’t care if it’s a real word, a mis-spelling, a portmanteau, in any language, of historical significance, whatever. I’m just going out of my mind trying to find something suitable for the last few months. I really need to get this business going!

    It’s for a boutique telecommunications company in an English-speaking country that sells exclusively to business customers (not sure if that’s relevant). It’s fully online, with no retail outlets.

    All ideas are welcome. TIA :)

    1. OlympiasEpiriot*

      Have you tried going to the Translate app on your smartphone and just putting in both those words and running through all the languages? There are so many languages listed on mine. You’ll know best what would work with the other parts of the name.

    2. LQ*

      Something I recommend is physical paper (ideally note cards) and come up with the 20 worst names you can think of, let me get you started…

      Ur Wrds R Our JERB!
      Hilarifocus
      Random Word Generator
      Froginator
      ComplexICan
      CommuniKind
      Digital Word ExperiaNation

      Your turn, and good luck!

    3. Workerbee*

      OneStopTelecomm

      Telecomm XaaS (everything-as-a-service)

      NextGen Telecomm

      Telecomm Technika

    4. Nanc*

      In this day and age part of coming up with a great name depends on if the URL is available! According to godday.com easybiztelecom.com is available. I’ve found if I enter the obvious name I (rather, our clients) might want knowing it will be unavailable up will pop a long list of suggestions.
      Give it a try and let us know how it (or the other great suggestions) goes.

    5. Gatomon*

      Where are you positioning this company? If you’re going for the high end (high quality service at a higher price), then I think the name needs to reflect that. 123easyphones won’t cut it, that’d be more of a low-cost, low-service provider in my mind. Or possibly a scam site.

      I work in telecom and names are all over the place, but it does say something about the company. Our corporate identity is tied to our location, and our name reflects that. CenturyLink fits a global company, because you wouldn’t probably think “Oak Ridge Telephone” is going to be able to offer you service in Europe.

      Obviously you have no true “physical” spot if you’re internet-based, but I think if you consider what you want to convey to someone when they first hear your company name, you’ll be on the right track. Or heck, maybe you’re based in San Francisco* and want to “ground” yourself there, so you become Golden Gate Communications or something.

      *I’ll give you 10 guesses on where Cisco got their name from….

    7. Winry Rockbell*

      Facile (French, would look good in a bold sanserif font)
      Kantan (Japanese, could also look nice stylized as KanTan or kantan)
      Oson (Uzbek)
      Erraz (Basque)

      I checked all of them and they seem to be free as .com except facile, but faciletelecom.com is available.

      1. Hrovitnir*

        I wouldn’t choose facile due to it’s meaning in English! (On Googling I see it can also mean simple but I’ve overwhelmingly encountered it to mean superficial, not thought out.)

  186. Last Daughter Standing*

    An interesting thing happened to me a few years ago that I share as a cautionary tale for those with any kind of chronic illness.

    I was diagnosed with cancer that required both chemo and radiation. Because of the schedule at work and the schedule for those activities, I decided not the apply for FMLA at the time — if things got worse I wanted to save leave FMLA for that. I took the occasional sick/vacation day as needed. My director (I was a manager myself) was aware and very supportive of my needs and was flexible in my scheduling.

    But, anyone who has been through cancer treatment can tell you that all is not sunshine and roses and some days you feel like something scraped off the bottom of a shoe after a walk through the barnyard. I worked in a building that was a converted apartment building — think very long halls. There was an executive conference room that had a refrigerator across the hall, where I would keep my lunch, and eat at my desk. The only other refrigerators were down the long hallway in another department, or 3 floors above (and down the hallway) to the break room for the department that I was loosely attached to. All staff received a memo that the executive conference room was off limits, and key cards were restricted accordingly.

    At that point I had been undergoing treatment for about a year, had missed a total of 5 unscheduled days, never missed a training class (I was the training manager, and my office was the training room). My director was out of town so I contacted his boss — the VP of Operations, and requested permission for a dorm size refrigerator for my office which was turned down. I offered to buy it and was told no, “it was probably good for me to get up and walk. Besides, you don’t look that sick.” An incredulous query brought this response: “Well, you’re not sick enough for FMLA, so you don’t need any accommodations.”

    I quit the next week. Moral of the story: always apply for FMLA if you have cancer. If you don’t need it and don’t use it, it’s always on file. (And, I’m cancer free for 4.5 years and looking forward to the five year mark.)

    1. Lena Clare*

      Ugh what an insensitive person. What did they say when you quit? Did you tell them the reason why? And congrats on being cancer-free!

    2. Utoh!*

      Yes to this, and for really any illness that has the potential to knock you for a loop. There is a reason FMLA was created. My husband has chronic back issues and a stressful job which can include being forced to work overtime. FMLA protects him from being forced to staying at work when it may cause him pain. It also covered him when he was out on extended leave for hand surgery. For those who need it, it’s a great thing and well worth the paperwork.

      Glad to hear you are doing well, LDS!

  187. Laura H.*

    I have another job aside from the soon ending jewelry store gig (I’m there 2-3 busy selling periods of the year). The consistent job is at a snack shop- ice cream, soft pretzels, and popcorn all made by us, and just about every type of commercially produced candy you could want.

    And I’m happy with it, but the perceived lack of foresight is just driving me batty, because the customer seating area is also one of the few places that we can do prep tasks, like bagging popcorn and doing sample cups of the popcorn flavors. I was doing sample cups all shift today, and 15 minutes before I finish, I’m caught in the middle of the boss’ tirade about how apparently some guests weren’t happy that they had no place inside to sit- plenty of places outside but it’s hot and I get it, but THERE IS NO OTHER PLACE TO MOVE TO in the building that allows me to complete the task! (And the two circular tables that we have that I use for said tasks are super tiny anyway- almost inadequate for the tasks. Using one of the two usually.) A Bigger space is out of the question. It’s not a visibility issue, but a spacing one.

    There is a tall counter that could be used but I’m disabled, and super short. (They’ve hired quite a few people who also fall into the first part of my category)

    Honestly at this point, I’m ALMOST tempted to buy a folding rectangular table myself that could be used for prep, stowed when not needed or used for extra seating if the weather isn’t great. I’ll bring it up as a suggestion (minus the buying it myself part) next time I’m there. Because I don’t like feeling berated when it’s not my fault you didn’t think of this stuff. Newish business, new challenges….

    I’m just doing my job. It’s bad form to address a problem with a blow up in earshot of guests and employees. I’m just glad my default for the most time in public is DO NOT SAY THAT!

    Sorry for the rant… I’ll update on how the Table suggestion goes.

    1. WellRed*

      Have you actually asked your boss what he wants you to do? Made suggestions? Suggest he buy the table? I do think it looks bad for staff to take up customer space, though I sympathize with your predicament. I’m slso confused by the lack of space, though, if you have room to bring in a bigger table.

      1. Laura H.*

        I plan on suggesting that next time I’m in. I just didn’t think of it at the moment.

        The place is packed with stuff- there’s a place for everything and nothing is usually out of place. So yeah.

  188. Donkey Hotey*

    In at the end of the day with an oddball question:
    I worked at (my former employer) for 14 years. In that time, my job title changed three times, the last one being Llama Compliance Specialist. They used an in-house definition of “compliance” to mean making sure the Llamas we were handled properly, not the legal/testing sort of compliance. Most of my job was writing llama care instructions for the ranchers and procedures on how to best shear said llamas. I left that job when it was purchased by a large multi-national Camelidae manufacturer and all former employees were laid off.

    When that job ended, I took that experience plus my degree in English and rebranded myself as a technical writer. I’ve been working in that field for two years and enjoy it very much. However in the last few months, my current employer has become less a hell-mouth but more of a hell-nostril. Time to buff up the resume and move on.

    My questions revolve around referring to my former employer and specifically my title.
    1 – as Llama Corp is no longer in business, should I list Camelidae or Llama Corp with an explanation that one now owns the other?
    2 – Is there value and/or danger to removing my title (Llama Compliance Specialist) and focusing on accomplishments that push technical writing without specifically saying Tech or Compliance?

    I appreciate any and all feedback. Thank you.

    1. The Man, Becky Lynch*

      1 – List it as the name that it was DBA when you worked there, that’s what your tax returns/W2’s would say and you can prove employment that way if necessary. Since you didn’t work at all for New Company it sounds like, they probably have no record of you or may at least have inept HR people who don’t know how to look back that far or know the difference, I wouldnt’ hold my breath there.

      2 – Tailor it for the job you’re looking for, to highlight that experience but keep your title as-is. Titles are hokey and they really vary place to place. So it’s not going to look that odd if you don’t highlight the accomplishments for compliance or tech, despite your title giving off the sense it maybe should. Titles are so subjective and we all use different ones for different things.

  189. Anonandanon*

    So I have a coworker who has been with the company for almost 5 years. He’s been pretty much useless from the get go, nothing can be given to him that he can complete without a lot of hand-holding, as he’s just too lazy, or it’s too beneath him…or something. He’s a condescending asshat, and will make sure to point out everything that is wrong with any new system he has to use, not that he had anything to do with getting it implemented, he’s just a complainer. Well he was diagnosed last year with cancer, he had surgery, and was out for months recovering. He came back for a while, and was his same old useless self, though he seemed perfectly fine healthwise. During the time he was out, four of us had to take his shifts, and take over anything he left behind or was *supposed* to be handling. He was diagnosed again, and was out again getting treatment, which was his choice though he could have worked through treatment as the side effects were minimal. We again covered for him, without any complaining, mind you. He came back again, looking no worse for wear, and he has only said the most ungrateful thank you to us. It’s so frustrating working with someone like him, and my manager says her hands are tied, though I don’t understand why. He’s lousy at his job, which includes customer service (we are a service desk), taking on anything outside the norm (which we all do), covering shifts (when he was working full-time, he would never volunteer to switch or cover shifts unless told to do so), and he brings NO value to the company whatsoever. I truly hope, once he’s stable (which he’s seemed to be this entire time, and if I did not know better would think he’s faking it all), that my boss can start managing him out. Enough is enough.

    1. The Man, Becky Lynch*

      They let him skate for 5 years. Now he’s been out on medical leave twice. Yeeeeeah, that ship has sailed and they’re going to let him continue to keep his job. They haven’t managed him out yet, they don’t seem to care. Now they feel their hands are tied because it’s really sticky to start dinging performance issues after a medical leave is a great way to get sued. Despite him having cruddy work before, it wasn’t noted, so it’s moot. They can’t say “well you’ve stunk it up prior to being sick too but we’re just /now/ starting to care.” Nope. You have to be consistent. They done pooped the bed.

    2. WellRed*

      First, please don’t EVER judge someone for their choice to work or not during medical treatment. You can’t possibly know. That said, the real problem is that he’s a jerk, the company doesn’t care that he’s a jerk and useless, and they don’t care about the rest of the staff enough to either hire more help or manage him out. You have a company problem.

      1. valentine*

        You can’t possibly know. […] You have a company problem.
        Right. His appearance doesn’t necessarily reflect his health status. Your view is tinged because you’re done with him, but his fitness for duty isn’t the issue. Your manager has given no indication she’s managing him out. Proceed as though she won’t. Either you’re done with this place or her lack of managing him is a tax on your job.

  190. It's bananas*

    I’m late to the game, but hopefully someone is still reading. My boss allows me to go out to lunch for 1 hr on Fridays. Boss runs hot and cold though. When I came back from lunch with my coworker, the very nice guard let me know that boss was flipping out. Boss was asking what time we left, when we came back, if we were gone longer for an hour, etc. We were gone for 1 hr.

    What’s the problem? My other coworker goes out for an hour, yet boss doesn’t freak out on her. Why us?

    1. The Man, Becky Lynch*

      The problem is that your boss is ridiculous. Sadly that won’t change. This isn’t your fault. This isn’t about anything you did. People like this are just unpredictable and untrustworthy. You’re singled out because their “feel” something towards you, maybe it’s because you have freckles. Maybe it’s because you didn’t wear yellow socks today. Maybe it’s because you sneezed when they were deep in thought and screwed their entire day up! They are nonsensical.

      People play favorites for asinine reasons! Don’t try to make sense of it.

    2. WellRed*

      “Bananas Boss, you said it was Ok to take an hour for lunch on Fridays. Did I misunderstand you? Would you prefer me to only take my usual 30 minutes ( or whatever)?” But yes, your boss sucks and you’ll only escape by getting a new job.

    3. MissDisplaced*

      Yeah, you really can’t win with these people. No matter what you do, they’ll make it out you’re in the wrong.
      You can try reaffirming: “Boss, I’m leaving for lunch now and I’ll be returning at one o’clock, Ok.”

  191. Amethyst*

    Not a question, just a vent.

    I’m burned out, you guys. I was laid off in November from my great desk job (this was a job I’d been asking the universe for for over 5 years before I finally landed this job), & have been working in a nice-enough retail job for a mom-&-pop shop/franchise owner since March to help pay the bills while I continue my job search for another desk job.

    I haven’t found anything, & it’s really doing a number on my head & my self-esteem. The last time I was out of work was during the recession, where I was out for 4.5 years. In some ways, I’m lucky I actually have a job now, but I’m so sick to death of all the stupid customer complaints, questions, & stupid comments & what have you that I’m so close to just flipping a table & walking out. I’m SO. TIRED. of retail. It’s to the point where I want a job where I can hermit & only socialize with people I know because handling the public is exhausting.

    I’ve had no nibbles on any applications I’ve sent out since working at the shop. C’mon, people. I will bust my ass for your company as long as you treat me well. JUST HIRE ME, FFS.

    :(

    1. WellRed*

      If you are getting zero nibbles (assuming by desk job you mean some sort of admin work or similar) I’d take a hard look at your resume/cover letter. I’d also look at whether your skills and experience line up with the jobs you are applying for. Not all “desk jobs” are the same so apply accordingly. Eg, are you an excel whiz applying at a place that needs reception and phone skills?

      1. Amethyst*

        I’ve been limiting my search to postings that meet my background & what I’m looking for. I’m not doing any reaching at this point. My last job was a lot of A/R work, which I excel at & was the perfect fit for me.

        I had my resume looked at & retooled by a former coworker-turned-friend’s HR sister. That helped get some interviews, & I made it to the final rounds of 2-3 before being rejected in favor of another candidate who had more experience. I’ve had no response from anything else I’ve applied to since my hire at this retail shop, & I haven’t done anything different.

        1. WellRed*

          Well, some interviews means you are on the right track! Hang in there, job searching can be such a slog, but with those skills, something will come your way.

    2. Rectilinear Propagation*

      Don’t know if it helps at all to share your frustration but I hope your luck turns soon.

  192. Rectilinear Propagation*

    For the second time a recruiter has ghosted me on a phone interview.
    Is this typical? Feeling really bad about the job search today.

    On a related note, any tips for getting into a headspace where you’re able to promote yourself when you feel like you actually aren’t doing good work lately would be very appreciated.

    1. Anonandon*

      Always remember that recruiters are the people who couldn’t make it as used car salesman. They are notoriously awful and have a reputation for flaking on commitments. Don’t take it personally. It is a mostly-terrible job for mostly-terrible people.

  193. Princess*

    Should managers help with the day to day tasks when their staff is busy/over worked? I understand that managers have other responsibilities but is it unreasonable to expect a manager to pitch in a little when their staff is drowning in work?

    1. Colette*

      That really depends.

      Can the manager do the tasks without slowing down the staff with questions?

      Is it a matter of one busy day, or is the problem going to go on for weeks/months?

      What tasks would the manager have to let slip to help?

      If the manager can help, unassisted, for one day while dropping nothing, sure she should help. If it’s an ongoing problem, she should be managing the workload and hiring more people. If helping means no one gets paid because she’s too busy to approve time cards, she should do her own job.

    2. Gatomon*

      It depends… it doesn’t make sense in some roles. Sometimes you need a manager to solve problems, and sometimes you need one to make traditional “managerial” decisions.

      For example, when I worked on an IT help desk, we really needed a manager who could solve problems. This role needed someone who could handle problem customers, pitch in at a basic level when the call queue filled up, manage workload and handle implementing strategic decisions for our team (“here’s how we support product X”). We didn’t have that person while I was on that team, but there is a manager like that there now and it’s been a huge improvement from what I can see. While I was on this team, we had a strategic manager and they spent too much time in meetings so they weren’t available to oversee the workload or deal with problem customers which affected customer service. When we got overloaded we were just told to figure it out… as if I can answer more than 1 call at a time?

      I’m an engineer now, and what I need is a strategic manager. I need my manager to make strategic decisions (“we no longer sell product X”) and go sit in the endless corporate meetings and talk to the C-suite so I don’t have to. I need someone to keep an eye on the workload and to make the occasional Key Decision (“let’s make an exception for ABC Corp because they are a good customer”), but day to day I don’t need this person to step in. If we need help my team sorts it out, this manager doesn’t know enough to do my job, but that’s okay.

    3. MissDisplaced*

      It depends on what and the job.
      When I managed designers, I would often roll up my sleeves and do a lot of the boring “grunt” work that needed to be done to pave the way for more creative endeavors for the team. Likewise, on small teams a manager might need to provide temporary coverage if people are out on vacation or for illness.

      But I think the answer is that as a manager, this stepping in should be more for exceptions and not the daily norm. If it becomes a daily norm, I start looking hard at why (people, staffing, or processes) that are not efficient.

  194. PrettyPetunia*

    Returning to work after an extended illness – I lost weight and I am a very small person to begin with. Some people react badly (shock, alarm) to how apparent the weight loss is and comment on it.

    Is there a way to warn people in advance to lessen the shock and chance of comments? Or would that just make it more weird to mention it?

    1. Lilysparrow*

      Yes, that’s going to make people who weren’t going to say anything feel like they’re supposed to acknowledge it.

      I’m sorry you’re dealing with this, but I think the best way to get it over with quickly is to just have a stock answer like, “Thanks, I was out sick for (time period), but I’m on the mend now. Now, about those TPS reports…”

      And you can be a bit brisk while still being polite, if they don’t take the hint right away. “Yes, thanks, I’m fine now. About those reports…”

      If you look very different than the last time they saw you, people are going to be surprised. There’s no way around that. But you can keep from getting bogged down over their reaction.

      1. PrettyPetunia*

        Thanks, I think you’re right. I’m probably overthinking it as most people I work with probably have enough grace and good manners not to comment.

        1. valentine*

          Maybe a bright “Looks worse than it is!” and, if they persist, “There’s nothing to tell” will back them off.

  195. Book Badger, Attorney-at-Claw*

    Late to the thread, but that’s okay: does anyone know how “recently” counts as “recent” in order to not talk about something in the open thread?

    1. Grace Less*

      About a month is safe, I think, but you can also email Alison to see I’d yiur letter is in her “to be answered” queue.

  196. scrimp shampi*

    any tips for getting through 4 10 hour day work weeks?
    …as a Pam Beesly style job
    …as a temp assignment, but still lots going on..

    …and any wrist/arm/shoulder/neck stretches & exercises? (artist/writer/music/crafter/homemaker problems to boot, on top of the 4-10s!) and any morale boost kindly appreciated!

    1. acctnt*

      I do 4-10’s! Totally worth it for the day off! Have you tried alternative chairs/desks? For a while I had a standing desk till I got moved, and then I used a yoga ball chair to sit on. It was much more comfortable and forced me to sit up straight.

  197. Bagels*

    Hi! I know it’s a little late to be posting, but I’m a high school grad trying to apply for a first-time job. I’m kind of just trying to apply for retail-type jobs to hold over the summer until I go back to school. The problem I have is that I don’t know what name to put in the application name field when it doesn’t specify if they want my legal name or not. I’d prefer to put the name I use, because I’m transgender and it’s important to me that I be called the right name, but if they need my legal name, I don’t want it to be wrong. I just don’t know what to do, and it’s been holding me back so now I’m at the point where it may be difficult for me to get a job since I’m leaving so soon comparatively… Anyone have any advice?

    1. Notthemomma*

      Put in your legal name and when offered the job let them know my name is A but I go by Z. If the application is paper and has space put your legal name (needed for taxes) then white your preferred name in parentheses.

      1. Winry Rockbell*

        +1. I go by a name that is not my legal name and while they need your legal name for paperwork purposes (like checking that you’re eligible to work, paying payroll tax, etc) and in my experience most retail places will put just about anything on your name badge as long as it’s reasonably a name and not, like, “Godzilla, King of the Monsters, Long May He Reign”

  198. Negative Pieces of Flare*

    How do you get over massive guilt when applying to jobs when you know leaving will totally screw over your coworkers. Especially if you’re friends with a few of them. Were already super short staffed, but I’m very burned out from the position. I’m also extremely overworked, often not getting any breaks and my direct teammate is often hard to work with. We can’t get people hired because the offering pay is so low. I’ve tried to switch to a different department, but I cannot move over until we get someone to replace me. The department that I want to move over to is desperate for me to start too because they’re also overwhelmed and they’ll need coverage in the later part of the year when they’re out of town.
    I know it’s the right thing for me to leave, but yeah, I feel horrible that I’ll be leaving them in a lurch.
    Thanks for any advice. :)

    1. acctnt*

      Okay, I think we are the same person! I’m in the same position and trying to figure out how to get over my GUILT of leaving. I know they’ll be in a bad position but honestly the last 2 years have been horrible for me so now I am just trying to get out and my stupid conscience is making me feel bad about leaving them! When in fact, just this week I had to cover for 2 other people, while doing my job, while preparing my stuff for my team so that I can go on vacation and not leave them in a mess. After I expressed how overwhelmed I was to my boss I didn’t get any help or sympathy at all, which promptly reminded me that I was making the right choice to leave and they will never change and I would never be able to move up. I don’t have any advice except for saying GOOD LUCK and just remember you’ll be in a far better position soon! :) :) :)

    2. AudreyParker*

      I’ve had to do this a couple of times, it’s tough. You really have to keep telling yourself “it’s business, people do this all the time.” For me, it’s helped to just do as much as I can to offset my departure before I go: I always leave tons of documentation to refer to, make sure everything has been handed off and people are connected to who they need to be connected to in order to work around my absence, tie off any loose ends that I can etc. Just make the transition as easy as possible. Once you’re gone, you’ll feel SO much better (it sounds like), so that combined with leaving them in as good a position as you can should keep your conscience clear!

    3. MissDisplaced*

      It’s Business, not Personal
      Lather, rinse and repeat.

      You need to take care of yourself first. Your work friends all have free agency and thus also are free to search for other employment as well. You’re not screwing anybody over by leaving, the EMPLOYER is.

      1. Mr. Bob Dobalina*

        +100. This is just a business arrangement. Don’t make it into a personal betrayal–it’s not. Also, your employer has problems. Don’t transform those problems into your personal problems to solve or feel guilt over. They are your employer’s problems, not yours.

    4. Batgirl*

      Because if you stayed you’d be propping up a broken system. It sounds like you and your colleagues don’t have the power to do a ‘go slow’ or even to ‘work at a reasonable pace’. But your colleagues can’t physically work any faster than ‘flat out’. Yes it’s more stressful for them to have one less employee working ‘flat out’ but it’s not like they can physically fill the gap or work harder than they already have to. The bosses will have to settle for the possible, not the impossible from them. Like you, your friends will be working flat out till they get out. Getting out is the only solution with a broken system. You may also consider whether you have drank some koolaid on the whole ‘your individual work output is the difference between everyone sinking and swimming and not the fault of our processes’ front.

    5. Buu*

      My co-worker quit recently due to similar issues, and now I kind of feel the company has gone out of it’s way to rectify the problems they can. They are much happier now, and I suspect they would have had to have left to move up in their career anyway.

      If they hadn’t quit, I suspect change would have come too late.

  199. acctnt*

    I do 4-10’s! Totally worth it for the day off! Have you tried alternative chairs/desks? For a while I had a standing desk till I got moved, and then I used a yoga ball chair to sit on. It was much more comfortable and forced me to sit up straight.

  200. fhqwhgads*

    I need help with frame of reference for something. I find myself frequently reading things like an employer offers health insurance, but “not great huge deductible plans”. What would say is the threshold for “huge deductible plans”? As opposed to…I donno…reasonable deductible plans? What constitutes “big” in this context? Or is this COL-area dependent? All the plans I’ve been on with previous jobs had no deductible so now that I’m looking at benefits packages with pretty much all some-deductible plans I’m having a hard time framing in my mind if some of these should be obviously not-great vs needing to do allllllllllll the math.

    1. AudreyParker*

      I haven’t seen this sort of thing in job posts, so not totally sure what someone is thinking when they write that (is this on Glassdoor?). However, there are insurance plans called High Deductible Plans that have pretty gigantic deductibles in the $1000’s – usually companies that offer those will also have an HSA where you can direct pre-tax money each month that’s designated to cover the deductible. I think — I have avoided working anywhere with this kind of plan so far, and for me it would be pretty crappy. “Reasonable” deductible plans can run the gamut from $50 to several hundred dollars, and that deductible may not be applicable to everything (e.g. my regular dr office visits, I don’t have to worry about the deductible. If there’s a test involved, I do). On top of that, you have different deductibles for in-network and out-of-network (or possible no coverage for out-of-network with some plans). It is indeed complicated now! I’m assuming you don’t have regular doctors you’re concerned with covering, but that would also potentially be a factor to consider since not all doctors take all plans.

      So TL;DR “huge deductible plan” is usually in the thousands and labeled appropriately, and you will probably need to do some math to really compare plans accurately (although whoever gives you the info often provides some kind of basic guidance sheet, too) Good luck, I know it’s a pain!

      1. valentine*

        Make a simple spreadsheet of your healthcare costs and, for each plan, enter the monthly amount and the deductible for your average visits per year, and prescription costs. Add a few extra of the last two and compare the totals for each plan. If there are three plans and you can’t spare a dime, you probably want the lowest deductible. If you can’t pay for most stuff and can’t handle random prices, you probably want the middle plan with an FSA (of the amount of the visits/Rx/etc).

    2. Red Reader the Adulting Fairy*

      Your health needs are a huge factor. Like, I pay $15/month for a high deductible plan. My deductible is $6,000. My org also offers a HSA that they fund with $850 per year (twice that for spouse-coverers) and I can add to it pre-tax out of my paychecks. But I haven’t spent a dime out of my HSA in two years, because my health needs are my annual checkup (covered), my 4x yearly birth control (covered), and a $15/month prescription that I just pay for out of pocket. My husband, who has several appointments a month, has a very different plan through his own employer.

    3. SemiRetired*

      I have insurance through the ACA and with a “silver” plan that’s a little more expensive, my deductible is $4000. Cheaper “bronze” plans had 6-7 thou deductibles. I would consider any of these high for an employer provided plan. Yes, do the math. Also how much of the premium do you have to pay? My old employer paid 90% for an individual but only 50% for a family plan. I could never afford the family plan.

    4. WellRed*

      Do you have ongoing health concerns? What’s your share of the premium? Do you have to meet the deductible before anything, including prescriptions, is covered? I’ve had high deductible plans ( 4k deduct) with HSA for years. Hated.

  201. Winry Rockbell*

    I’ve been out of college for 4 years, and I’m finally returning to do my last year and finish my degree. I’ve registered for classes and I’m working with my boss so I can attend them in person. I’m really excited to finally get it done — but I also have been out of school for 4 years, and haven’t been in a traditional classroom since I was 17. I’m nervous about being older than my TAs, forget the other students, and nervous about juggling school and work. Has anyone else gone to finish school in their mid-20s or later? Was it as awkward as my imagination is making it seem? What advice do you have? Thank you in advance for any responses.

    1. Dr. Anonymous*

      I went to Med school in my 40’s and I was so worried about the same issues that I cried the night before my first day. Honestly, it was fine and interestingly the people I got to be closest to were traditional students, not other returning students like me. It’ll feel a little awkward at first, but that goes away. You may have to go out of your way to form study groups, but in general I don’t think you have to do anything special. Congratulations!

    2. WellRed*

      Started college at 24, grad at 30. No one cares, you’ll do fine. Just be patient if the 18 year olds don’t seem to take it as seriously.

    3. Batgirl*

      I went back to school in my thirties. Generally I had a much easier time making deadlines and feeling calm than I did first time round. I had very collegial, almost workplace relationships with staff and students. There was a highly immature minority (publicly screaming at professors over grades, being sexually inappropriate with classmates) whom the mature majority (of all ages) bonded over. It was kind of like being in an intellectual salon with a side dish of soap opera.

      1. Clisby*

        I don’t recall any soap opera, but I also went back to college in my 30s. First career was journalism; after 11 years, went back to college to get a computer science degree (worked as a newspaper copy editor at night to pay the bills.) Age differences didn’t seem to matter much, although I’m sure I missed out a lot of college party invitations, which I wouldn’t have been inclined to accept anyway (plus, I worked at night, usually including weekends.)

  202. iPad interview*

    I have a Skype interview scheduled for next week. I don’t have a laptop anymore and want to do the interview on my iPad. Any tips on making it the most peofessional possible? Shall I try to build a small stand at eye-level or better to just hold it?

    1. Anonandon*

      Use or make some kind of stand. Or one of those tablet covers that folds into a triangle. Doesn’t have to be fancy. You could just use a cardboard box and some tape.

    2. KayDay*

      It might get tiring holding it for the entire interview. I agree with the other poster, if you have the cover that folds into a stand, that works. I also recommend piling up some books so you are looking down at the screen as much. I’ve done a bunch of skype interviews and that’s what I usually did. If you can’t manage to cobble together a stand, I would suggest using your phone, which would be less tiring to hold.

    3. iPad interview*

      Thanks for the ideas. I was thinking of some stand but wasn’t sure if that was a thing. I have the folding case, I will put the iPad on some shoe box on my table.
      I’m excited, I’m relocating to another country so there’s the additional stress of that to this initial interview.

  203. Calling Brits*

    I’ve got a third round interview coming up. They were only going to do two, but the field is so strong they’re considering adding a second role and calling people in for coffee with the person covering the line manager’s 9 months to a year of maternity leave. Any tips?

  204. KayDay*

    Has anyone ever read those Harvard Business Review books–the series is called “HBR Guide To…(finance/project management/HR/etc” that are sold at airports? I always pass by them and think they look useful, but never actually get them. I’ll be spending some time in an airport soon and am thinking maybe I should get one.

    (and yes, I’m sure I could look at online reviews on booksellers webpages, but I want your opinions…I trust the readers of this blog more than other strangers on the internet.)

    1. MissDisplaced*

      I read one of the online ones on additive manufacturing for work. I believe it’s the same as the printed edition, just eBook format.

      I found it a good high-level overview of the topic, with financial insights into the size and scope of the market. They won’t make you an expert, but it’s a good place to start if you need to learn more about something you know nothing about quickly.

      Deloitte also provides similar reports.

  205. Bruiser Woods*

    Thanks AAM community, you are all so, so right and it was great to hear everyone’s experiences especially those from the other side. Deep down I knew this letter should never be submitted but it was therapeutic to write! The advice everyone has given will help me stay calm and rational when I do resign. I just found a post from Alison that echos the advice given above https://www.thecut.com/article/resignation-letter.html
    I’ll be using everyone’s suggestion to write something short and sweet!

  206. Overalls1900*

    Long time lurker here.

    I have a second round interview on Monday for an amazing position at an amazing organization that would pay almost twice what I’m getting now. My first round interview was probably one of the best experiences in an interview I ever had. I got along so well with everyone, including the hiring manager. When she called about the second round she literally said, “We loved you.” Monday will be with the VP in charge of the department, my actual manager (his first day was after my first interview, but I’ve seen him present at conferences and I’m so excited about him), and the people who would be my direct reports. When they scheduled my second they only gave me one option for time, which makes me think maybe I’m the only one in the running? Gah, I’m just so excited about this and would love some good vibes sent over on Monday for this person you literally have never ever met in any capacity.
    And thank you to AAM for giving me confidence and skills while I’ve been searching. There have been a couple of opportunities over the past few months that just haven’t felt right and I’ve turned them down. I don’t think I would have done that before AAM, and I think they would have made be miserable. Thank you!!

    1. WellRed*

      Sending you good vibes, but please be prepared to not get the job, lest you crash land too hard. Only offering one interview time does not mean you are the only candidate but it might mean they’re a bit rigid. What if that option didn’t work for you?

  207. Clementine Danger*

    I have a question about minimum wage/entry level jobs. I’m a recent immigrant, recent widow, and I am diagnosed with major depression. Due to my immigration status I am not entitled to any benefits. I’m in treatment and on medication, but my doctor recommended very strongly that I work a low-stress job to get by.

    I was kind of baffled at her suggestion. Are there any jobs that don’t require a college degree that could be classified as “low-stress”? All I seem to be able to find is customer service work and that’s about as far from low-stress as I think you can get. I want to work and I don’t mind working hard, but dealing with the public in an cheerful manner for 8 consecutive hours is simply not in the cards for me.

    So what are these low-level low-stress jobs she was talking about? I’ll literally do anything that isn’t customer service and I’ll do it for shit pay. I’ll make coffee and shuffle papers, I’ll pick apples, I’ll clean your nasty toilet, I’ll do data entry for miles, basically anything that doesn’t require me to be cheerful and peppy for customers. I want to work, but I’m not sure where to start.

    Ideas?

    1. Three-year-old Wrangler*

      Cleaning/Janitorial/Housecleaning work? Depending on the type of job (housecleaning service, hotel maid, janitorial staff after hours at an office building) your interaction with the client might be small to almost none at all. It’s physically difficult work, and generally pays poorly, but if you are okay with physically difficult work and want to avoid customer service, it’s a widely available type of work. And there are generally lots of part-time opportunities if you prefer that in your current circumstances.

      1. Trixie*

        I was thinking this too, maybe through temporary employment or staffing agency. Also, local colleges are often hiring for laundry, housekeeping, facilities, office work. Once they are familiar with you as an employee, there is also room to move around if a change is needed.
        I also think of folks who help with restocking but those are often later shifts and may be more stressful, even if little to know customer contact.

    2. NoLongerYoungButLotsWiser*

      Also, shelf stockers (you might get asked random customer questions, but you are not waiting on them as a cashier)… this can be supermarket, pharmacy, super store, wherever there are case totes to unpack onto shelves (although hours may or may not be the same as open to the public).
      Brother in law (complete introvert) had a stage where he also had to drive around and do gauge readings (oil wells, but think meter reader). Didn’t interact with anyone but the car radio, He also unpacked produce at a supermarket
      Depending upon your accuracy rate, YMMV on these jobs. But showing up, willing to work, and being able to put the right things in the right place… all skills.
      Also, some “public” jobs are not really – you are at the counter making sandwiches or at the machine, making the coffee… and not at the register. Or busing tables (every single restaurant around here needs help).

      Those have slightly more interaction than some, but a lot less than the cleaning jobs I’ve had. Cleaning jobs may vary – when I was in high school, I found the homeowner wanted to follow me around and make sure I cleaned the way they wanted it done, and they were more like my personal clients than “I” wanted…. I found it easier to work dipping ice cream, where I took orders but didn’t have to do more than hand it over and send them down to the cashier.

    3. Seven hobbits are highly effective, people*

      Have you tried temp agencies? The only time I signed up with one without a college degree was when I was looking for summer jobs during college, but I suspect that their standards go up and down depending on the local hiring market and they may or may not have low stress jobs available depending on what you’re looking for specifically. I always enjoyed the “catch up on the filing backlog” temp jobs where you’re basically left alone in a room all day to try to get a bunch of papers organized into cabinets, but everyone has their own strengths and weaknesses for that kind of thing. (I am great with the alphabet and terrible with phones.)

    4. sheep jump death match*

      Security guard! Especially if you can get an overnight shift at a business.

  208. Workerbee*

    I have a dilemma that combines work life with soul-food life.

    Context out of the way first:

    I’m currently in a company that used to be wonderful. I still like my actual job, but the culture has soured with new leadership more concerned with empire-building. Everyone’s morale has sunk, and HR tells people to suck it up or leave. Despite high praise from my boss, he’s refused my concrete evidence for promotion for four years straight. I don’t think there’s much here for me anymore, so I’m actively interviewing.

    I have an offer for a job that sounds marvelous with a team that also seems marvelous. The title wouldn’t be a bump, but the pay would be. The commute is slightly longer than what I have now, which is also long. And the org itself is more rigid with what I’d call 1950s edicts. I took a risk and advocated for what I wanted, and they’re actually working on 21st century options.

    So, life:

    Current job is extremely flexible with remote work options and I’m trusted to get my stuff done without oversight. As such, I’ve been able to have the time to work on my true dream: Writing!

    I secured a publisher for a couple children’s books, and I’m now halfway through writing my first novel and it is an absolute soul-feeding joy even as it also takes time and dedication. It’ll need a different publisher if I don’t self-publish. Regardless, I want this, so badly.

    Dilemma:

    If I stay with my current job, I’m worried I’ll let the lethargy of that environment affect me to the point where I develop too many ingrained bad habits. This won’t do me any good with a future job. But I can see me being able to finish my novel with my current set-up. More joy!

    If I take the new job, I’m worried I’ll hijack my dream by having less time to devote to the book. Yet that new job could be a great move for me with my career–until I can be a full-time author, of course. :) But there again, I feel I have to finish my novel / write more books in general to start making that dream happen. And that dream is a bit more nebulous than these concrete ‘regular’ jobs, for all that I know I have to devote full intent to what I want.

    I guess I’m looking for any insight or perspective as right now I’m facing a hedge of worries and can’t see a clear path out of it.

  209. Anonymous for this*

    My new boss makes political statements that push my buttons, and I’m not sure how to deal.

    For context: he is a white, heterosexual man in his mid-50s or so whose family have been around since the Irish potato famine, and I am a 34-year-old brown atheist first-gen American woman and am starting to question my sexuality (not out at work or anything, but I am unmarried, which was enough to cause comment from some co-workers when I started this job about a year ago). We are in an academic medical center in the South; he is department chair and I’m junior faculty.

    The comments are along the lines of him monologuing about immigration or the evils of universal healthcare. I have been staying silent, mostly because I think these are inappropriate discussions for the workplace, but also because I disagree with those views and I don’t trust myself not to get into a political fight with the guy who signs my paycheck and will be putting me up for tenure in a few years’ time. But every time he launches into one of his “lectures” (because that’s what they feel like) I feel disrespected and gagged.

    I definitely don’t feel comfortable bringing this up to any sort of ombudsperson because I’m one of a handful of faculty of color in this department, and Chair has made comments before about how he thinks everyone is “politically correct” and overly sensitive these days. There are certain specifics to this job/location that would make leaving for a comparable job pretty challenging (including the tenure issue, above). So … any suggestions for making the best of this one-sided working relationship?

    1. Torrance*

      This is entirely dependent on your finances, of course, but something that worked for me in a similar situation was having something akin to a swear jar. Every time the person who paid my bills voiced a horrible opinion, I’d make a note of it. Then, at the end of the month, I’d add them all up and donate a set amount per incident/remark to a charity that stood for everything they hated.

      It was a way for me to acknowledge that I couldn’t change them or easily change my situation but I could stand up for my values in a sustainable way. While I didn’t have the courage at the time to donate in their name, just picturing their face when they hypothetically found out that they were basically financing, in some small way, organisations they despised was gratifying.

    2. The Man, Becky Lynch*

      I had one of these bosses before. The kick in the pants was that he was an immigrant himself and totally pro-wall, I cannot.

      The best way I handled it was just to tune him out and remind myself that he’s full of hot air. There’s nothing you can do short of starting an all out war and you’ve made it clear you aren’t in a position to find new work, so it’s the grossest feeling ever but you have to let it go in one ear and out the other. I ignore them, I pity them, I “bless their hearts” every ridiculous thing out of their mouth they say.

  210. Anon phd*

    Hi all frequent reader here, slightly less frquent poster. Question for anyone familiar with engineering PhD dissertations. I am doing edits this weekend, incorporating markups from my editor. So my question is – is it normal to use first person in an engineering dissertation? Not in every sentence but in instances such as “I analyzed the mathematical model” or “I established that changing parameters result in x”.My editor seems to think it’s fine and recommended it. The editor is very competent and has experience with engineering dissertations. Fwit, I am a student in a major North American city. Keep in mind this is like version 5 of the dissertation, it’s already defended but I had a major revision. I don’t know what the norms are in terms of first vs. third person. The initial versions of the dissertation had “it was esrablished/analyzed” etc. Any insight would be really appreciated.

    1. Jeannie*

      I work in social sciences and even there my expectation of research writing is “the mathematical model was analysed”. Have you read any of the most recent engineering research? How is it written? Can you find anything that has been published and was edited by you editor?

    2. Another anon phd*

      My first go to would be my advisors, and then students who have recently submitted their dissertation.
      If you can’t talk to people in person, can you look up previously submitted dissertations? My university library keeps a hard copy of all submitted dissertations. Alternately, they should be available online. This should give you an idea of how things are done in your field.

    3. Anon phd*

      Thanks very much for your help! Great advice. I forgot that the university library has an online thesis repository and sure enough, in my faculty everything is written as “it was analyzed”, not first person. Problem solved!

  211. Shelby*

    Hello,

    My manager frequently calls me in his office for job related things and then asks for HR free moments. Being one of his employees, I dont really know what to do in this situation. I usually just respond with “what is it?” Or something similar. Recently his behavior has been noticed by my coworkers and it has been brought to HR. Are the comments he made as “HR free moments” something I should bring up? Or will they say that I was giving permission?

    1. valentine*

      If you would otherwise report the behavior, you can report it, and just that he asked is reportable. This is sitcom-level weirdness. By definition you can’t give permission for someone to, say, harass you.

      If he does it again, say, “No thanks” or “I really cant do that” and head out. Be prepared with something you’ve got to get back to or a call you need to make.

    3. The Man, Becky Lynch*

      This sounds so awful and truly gross, to be honest. What is he doing during those moments?! It sounds like he’s being a creep or wildly inappropriate and that’s NEVER OKAY.

      Most employment laws are not able to be “waived” due to the tyrants who are the reason for employment laws. You need to tell HR about this weirdo.

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