open thread – June 14-15, 2019

by Alison Green on June 14, 2019

It’s the Friday open thread! The comment section on this post is open for discussion with other readers on anything work-related that you want to talk about. If you want an answer from me, emailing me is still your best bet*, but this is a chance to talk to other readers.

* If you submitted a question to me recently, please do not repost it here, as it may be in my queue to answer.

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  1. Eillah*

    AAM commentariat, I need advice. I think one of my closets friends/roommate is making a big mistake by accepting a new job, but I’m not sure I have the standing to tell her.

    Some background: I live in Greenwich CT and currently earn 58k a year. My commute takes up 3 hours of my day, 15 hours of my working week. My monthly train expenses (Metro North and MTA) come to roughly $500/mo. My salary jumped up from 41k a year, and during that time I had to borrow money from my family just to make ends meet. As a result, I am very familiar with the cost (both financial and emotional) this kind of commute takes on someone based on what they’re earning.

    My roommate, who used to work at a 9-5 that was 10 minutes from our apartment, just accepted a job on Wall Street, where I also work. I know exactly how long her commute will take and how much time it will take out of her week. I know how early she will have to wake up for this job.

    She accepted this job at 45k a year, on Wall Street, having previously made about 41k a year. Frankly… I don’t think she’s really thought this all through, and I think she’s leaning on bad instincts/bad advice. She says that if she finds a better job she’ll bail on the one she just accepted. She works in compliance for nonprofits, which means she will have to do BG checks for any job that wants to hire her. If she bails on this job after a short amount of time, she still HAS to disclose it in BG checks. If a company that wants to hire her finds out she’s bailing (again, a hypothetical), that could seriously affect her ability to get a good job in the future. There’s also the problem that she’s either losing money or just coming close to breaking even, having accepted a job at the same rate she’s being paid now with an additional 500/mo going just to train tickets (and that’s nothing to say of the sheer fucking exhaustion that commute brings about, and the fact that you’re basically sacrificing 15hrs a working week of free/gym/groceries/life time).

    Do I have any standing to talk to her about this? I do have a tendency to be overly opinionated and a know it all, but I really, really don’t think she’s thought this through and I think this decision has a very high likelihood of biting her in the ass. What do I do?

      1. Kat in VA*

        FYI, probably too late for you to see this, but we’re all adults AND we get to use the f-bomb here (within reason, of course)

        :)

    2. FD*

      I think you can share your experience once, something like, “Hey, this is what happened when I was doing this…”

      But then drop it. As long as she pays her share of the rent, it’s not really your business.

      1. Minocho*

        I think this is the best way to go about it. Also, if you both work in the same area now, you may be able to find a place with a better balance of housing + commute costs?

        1. Eillah*

          Other part of the rub (where I come in) I have a second, part time job as a barre instructor in Connecticut. There is the option of splitting up as roommates (which would suck), but unfortunately I at least need a point halfway between the city and CT. Lots of complicating factors.

          1. CatMom*

            I live in Brooklyn and I was actually going to suggest the same thing.
            I know it would suck if she left and you stayed, but thinking in terms of advice here :(

            I don’t know how much rent and expenses are in CT, but there are still a lot of super reasonable apartments in Brooklyn and Queens (or even Staten Island, actually) from which you could get to Wall St in 30-60 min, and a monthly metrocard is like 1/4 the price of your current train expenses. Obviously that creates a conflict with your barre teaching, but there are new barre studios opening up all the time in Manhattan (one literally just opened up the floor below my office), and there are also a LOT of side hustles available in the city (like way more than anywhere else I’ve ever lived). I know it’s easy for a stranger on the internet to tell you to pick up and move, but if you’re both going to be spending $500 and 60 hours a month traveling to work, you might do a little serious research before deciding it’s totally out of the question.

            1. Eillah*

              I am contracted to a specific studio and cannot change studios. Moving to Brooklyn or Staten Island would make my situation infinitely more exhausting.

          2. Princess Consuela Banana Hammock*

            I realize relocation may be the worst or most disfavored option, but it’s worth taking a look at East Harlem (near the 125th MNR station) and Long Island City. There’s likely barre instructor opportunities there, too. But I’m sympathetic—the MNR commute is not fun unless you can pull some mental jiu-jitsu to convince yourself that it’s fun.

      2. Jules the 3rd*

        I agree, you can share your experience once.

        A short term at a job (under 1 year) isn’t a big problem, done once, especially if there’s a compelling story behind it like ‘the pay wasn’t enough to cover the commute or living closer.’ You can even get away with that twice according to Alison, but the third job needs to be a stay of over two years, and three for preference. So, unless Roommate’s got a short term already, don’t mention it as a potential issue.

        1. Ask a Manager* Post author

          Correction here: Twice if they’re far apart and there’s a really solid history to counteract it. And after that you need a stay of preferably 3+ years. In a lot of fields, a bunch of two-year stays would still be a concern.

            1. Former Employee*

              Consulting is completely different. You would only have to explain if you left before the end of the contract.

            1. Curmudgeon in California*

              …And every year if you are temporary/contract (they often let you go to avoid the “permatemp” problem.)

            2. Clisby*

              I don’t know whether it’s still the norm, but when I worked in journalism nobody would blink at someone switching jobs every two years. It wasn’t exactly *expected*, but it wasn’t at all unusual.

      3. OhGee*

        Agree. This (the often negative effect of a long commute) is also a lesson some people need to learn on their own.

    3. Hiring In Remote Areas*

      Offer your experience as “this is my experience and I want you to be aware of what I had gone through previously before you make any decisions” rather than “I think you are making a big mistake.”

      Is her current job Toxic Hellhole – Must Get Out Now and this Wall St 45K/yr job is a better option even with all the negatives you mentioned?

      Is there any chance of her moving into NYC if she does accept this offer, making the commute less expensive/long?

      1. Eillah*

        She just left her toxic hellhole job, she’s in her first week of not having a regular 9-5. I’m really happy for her in that regard, she’s seemed much happier since having time to focus just on herself.

      2. cmcinnyc*

        NYC on 45K a year is going to mean a commute from somewhere–you can’t live in the neighborhood on that. Maybe Staten Island and take the ferry to Lower Manhattan? Otherwise it’s outer boroughs and a long commute unless she gets hella lucky. I’ve always had good luck with real estate so I’ll send some her way if she goes this route. (Oh, and she’ll probably need roommates.)

        1. Upstater-ish*

          I live in the Albany NY area and 45 k would just barely make it. I can’t see that in any commuting distance to NYC

        2. CatMom*

          Oh, you exaggerate. I live near Prospect Park and getting to Wall St would be like 35 min on an average day. I make more than $45K but my partner doesn’t and relatively easily affords our rent and expenses, which we split.

    4. LaurenB*

      You have no idea what she has in savings, or promised support from her family, or anything else. She could be sitting on a trust fund that you don’t know about.

      1. Eillah*

        I know for a fact she doesn’t/isn’t, we’re both pretty open in that regard (she’s also explicitly told me so). Besides the uncle who occasionally sends money, she’s on her own (which is another complicating factor, both that she doesn’t have a solid advice network AND on the flip side, that she needs something to support her ASAP. Which adds another layer of guilt to what I’m feeling).

        1. Noo Yawker*

          Eillah, I am going to give you the blunt advice that others here are too polite to give. You need to butt out. Your roommate is an adult and is able to put on her big girl pants and decide what works for *her* in terms of commute, etc. Plenty of people live in Greenwich and work on Wall Street (’em trains leave Grand Central Station full for a reason). Jobs on Wall Street are usually well-compensated. If she’s ever looking to move on from the non-profit world, she’ll also make good contacts on Wall Street. And again, these are her pros and cons to weigh, not yours.

    5. Fiona*

      If she already accepted the job and isn’t asking for your advice, I think you just have to stay out of it and let her learn from her own mistakes. Everyone has a different threshold for commutes, etc. I assume if you’re close friends/roommates, she already knows the toll that the commute has taken on you and you’ve discussed that stress in passing.

      If she was asking your advice prior to taking the job, I’d absolutely tell her everything you said and encourage her NOT to take this job. But it seems like what’s done is done. I’d stay out of it.

      1. Eillah*

        She took the job kind of abruptly, after a recruiter (who didn’t remember her name/experience) told her not to hold her breath on another job she was waiting to hear back from (better salary, 20min commute).

      2. Anita Brayke*

        Get her into books or audiobooks from the library. She might enjoy the commute!

        1. Kat in VA*

          This. I live in the DMV (DC/Maryland/Northern Virginia) and my commute on average is 1.5 hours in, 1.5 hours out. I drive that commute every day, five days a week.

          However, I also have three daughters and my husband at home, as well as a job with four super demanding execs to handle on a daily basis.

          My commute is literally the *only* time I get any headspace to myself.

          One person’s hellish commute is another person’s blissful alone time with their book, their podcast, their ridiculously loud aggressive music, their stupid fast car and chain smoking (ok that’s just me but you see my point).

    6. Don't Send Your Kids to Hudson University*

      I focus a lot less on the consequences of leaving this job early, that really speculative and if it’s one odd thing in a background check, it’s very unlikely to result in revocation of a background check contingent offer.

      Instead, focus on offering help and insight. Say “hey this will be a big change for you, if you ever want to get into the nitty gritty of how I made this work, even some of the financial details, I’d be happy to answer some questions and offer insight. I came across a lot of challenges that I would love to help you avoid.” Personal financial stuff is tricky, so I wouldn’t assume you know the ins and outs of her budget. If she wants to hear about it, tell her how this worked and didn’t FOR YOU, given her enough credit to be able to apply that to her own situation. If she doesn’t be a supportive friend and let he make her own mistakes.

    7. animaniactoo*

      So, the thing is that she may think that all of those things are a worthwhile trade-off for the foot in the door/experience.

      The key you should be focused on is not “Wow, I think this is a bad move for you”, but rather: “Hey, not sure if you’ve done any research or given any thought to this, but just so you have this to factor into your decisions here’s the experience I had when I was in that position, in terms of some of the serious drawbacks to it.” and then you can follow up with something like “It was rough and I’m glad I survived it, but it was chancy there for awhile.”

    8. Fortitude Jones*

      Ask her if she’s thought it through. If she says yes and/or gets defensive, leave it alone – it’s her career and her life. She’s most likely already considered the pros and cons and determined this is an acceptable risk for her.

      1. Eillah*

        I love her dearly but…. she doesn’t have the best judgement, and tends to listen to the (very bad) advice of some close family friends.

        1. animaniactoo*

          You can’t save her from herself. You have to remember what is in your control and that everyone gets to make their own choices. The most you can say is “Hmmm. I think that’s bad advice, and here’s what I think you should consider when you’re looking at this.” Not to replace her judgment or the other judgment with your own, but rather to give her a push towards the other factors and then let her live by what she feels is right for her – even if it’s a train wreck that you can see coming.

          If you see a train wreck coming however, and it’s likely to impact you because she’s your roommate – start figuring out what to do about you in the event that it crashes. So that you won’t just be stuck with “Ugh. Am now screwed/feel like I have to pick up slack for her/help her/etc.” If you know you’ll be okay because you know what you can/will do, you’ll likely feel less invested in how her choices go for her even though you care about her as a person and don’t want to see her crash.

          1. Fortitude Jones*

            All of this. Eillah, I know it’s hard watching someone you know and care about make stupid (to you) life choices – believe me, most of the people in my life get the side-eye from me on a regular basis. But adults are gonna do what they wanna do, so sometimes it’s best to just sit back, let the person take their L, and then be there to console them after their disastrous plans fall through. And hey – every now again, when you let go of what is absolutely, 100% right (to you), things turn out for the best in the long run, which you couldn’t have necessarily predicted in the beginning.

              1. boo bot*

                I think Fortitude Jones’ point is really important: sometimes people we care about make bad choices, and as long as no one is going to end up dead, seriously injured, or in jail, you have to step back and let them do it.

                This might turn out to be rough for her, but it’s a reversible decision – if it doesn’t work out, she’ll pick herself up and figure out the next thing. Trusting your loved ones to be resilient can be really hard, but it’s also a way to show them real respect.

                And, you really don’t know how this will turn out! It sounds like you’re a little further along in your career than she is, and so the trade-offs that look bad to you might be more worth it for her. After all, you made that same commute on an even lower salary, and it ultimately helped you get where you are now – she might be making the same calculation, and deciding it’s worth it. As long as she’s able to keep up with your shared expenses, let her do what she’s going to do.

                Besides, if you keep quiet now, you’ll never have to fight the urge to say “I told you so”!

                1. Fortitude Jones*

                  Trusting your loved ones to be resilient can be really hard, but it’s also a way to show them real respect.

                  Oh, I like this. Respecting people is all about not treating them like brain-dead ninnies or coddling them. If she makes a mistake, it’s hers to make and, ultimately, to solve. Resilience and tenacity builds character.

                2. boo bot*

                  “Respecting people is all about not treating them like brain-dead ninnies”

                  I want to get that stitched on a pillow!

            2. Noo Yawker*

              There’s zero about a commute from Greenwich, CT, to Wall Street that screams “stupid life choices.” Nothing. At. All. This is a commute that thousands of people make every day.

              I suspect the LW’s real concern is that she fears her roommate will decide she likes living in Brooklyn or wherever more than commuting, and that roommate may eventually decide to break the lease.

              1. Wake Up! !*

                Not to mention, “stupid life choices” appears to be code for “life choices that are functionally identical to the ones I am currently making, which are smart.” This is so silly. So, so silly.

        2. Dust Bunny*

          You’re her friend, not her mother when she was thirteen. You can’t make this decision for her. Offer your experience and then let it go.

        3. Sunflower*

          I think you just answered your own questions there. The positive is that while a short stint won’t be great, this likely isn’t going to be a life changing decision and one she can easily get herself out of with minimal damage. I agree to tell her your experience then drop it.

    9. Kiki*

      I think bringing up your concerns about the commute is totally fair, especially since you know first-hand how difficult it is. That being said, you can only relate your experience and then you have to drop it.

      On the background check aspect, if your roommate has never job-hopped or quickly left a job before, I don’t think leaving this job quickly will be a deal-breaker, especially if she explains the commute situation. The goal of background checks for compliance jobs isn’t usually to pass judgement on the duration of employment at past jobs, it’s to look for risk and potential conflicting interests. You mentioned in a comment that she does need a job ASAP for financial reasons, so this may actually be her best option right now.

      1. Overeducated*

        I agree with this – at worst it’ll be awkward if she leaves quickly, but probably not career destroying, there’s nothing illegal about it and it would be easy to answer any questions about why if it’s so directly related to commute.

    10. Cruciatus*

      I really don’t see why you can’t say something as this is a friend. I would. Just something like, “I know you’ll make the best decision for yourself, but I just wanted to let you know my experience with the commute is X and money for the commute is Y and the time I spent commuting is a really drag. I just wanted you to figure those things in to your decision since you’ve had an easy, inexpensive commute up until now.” And then if she chooses to take it anyway, just be happy for her and hope it all works out!

      So I think you have standing to speak your piece but then you’ve gotta let it go.

    11. The Man, Becky Lynch*

      I understand your concern and know what it’s like when someone makes a decision that’s just awful, just the way you’ve laid everything out here, just an awful decision all around. Yikes yikes yikes.

      However the sad thing is, most people have to learn by their own mistakes. This doesn’t mean she doesn’t appreciate and trust you, it just means she has to see for herself that you’re not exaggerating or trying to protect her from her great escape from the toxic place she’s fleeing.

      I’m also screaming inside at how little NYC and LA jobs pay, coming from another high AF CL area myself. I will never ever grasp the difference. It’s scary to think about making 45k with that commute.

      1. Overeducated*

        Sometimes it’s what you have to do :/ My spouse makes not that much more, with a 1.5 hour car commute, in a HCOL area. His payscale is set at a national standard level, and thanks to my job he’s what his field calls “geographically restricted,” i.e. not able to move for a job paying the same thing in a much cheaper area. You just have to negotiate as much flexibility as possible and plan your exit strategy so you don’t have to do it forever.

        1. The Man, Becky Lynch*

          That’s the stunted part of me that also doesn’t grasp the concept of restricted/niche jobs but the logical part of me know they’re important exist. It’s part of the blissful ignorance of being someone who can work in any city or town because everyone needs accounting or business management and my partner is in sales/marketing so again, just sailing on the wind.

          2. Overeducated*

            That must be nice…we’re both very specialized (because we met in grad school, haha) and we definitely envy couples we know where one person has an “employable anywhere” type job! But we were a bit too deep in at that point to abandon our planned careers entirely and we liked each other too much to look for more practical partners…so we try to muddle through.

    12. MissDisplaced*

      You can offer your experience with the costs and time involved. But beyond that… well, she’s an adult and I assume capable of making her own choice.

      1. A Day at the Zoo*

        Just another thought from someone who commuted for years on Metro North on and off over the past 20 years. The train time can be enjoyable. Before I had kids, dogs, and a house, I used the time to knit, read, etc. After life had different complications, the time became more precious. She will need to figure out how to keep her non-commute/non-essential expenses down (lunch in the Wall Street area, as I am sure you are aware, can easily run to $15 a day). It may not be as bad for her as you found it — everyone has different tolerance levels.

        1. pancakes*

          I work in the Wall St. area and spend around $10/day for lunch. I wonder how many of you with these ridiculously long commutes are relying on this sort of distortion to justify it. It’s fine to not want to live in NYC, of course, and you don’t have to exaggerate the expense to feel that way!

            2. boo bot*

              Yeah, it’s the difference between fancy or not-fancy coffee, or super-hungry and regular hungry, or just where you happen to go. There’s plenty of ways to spend $15 on lunch in the Financial District!

              There’s plenty of ways to avoid paying $15 for lunch, as well, but I don’t think people who say NY has expensive tendencies are just making stuff up. Also, it’s a lot cheaper to work and eat here if you do live here – easier to bring your own lunch on a 30 minute subway ride than on a 90 minute train ride, for one.

          2. A Day at the Zoo*

            And I did say, could easily run to — not that all lunches run to that. For the record, I am a born and raised NYC person and always lived in this area and commuted to NYC a good chunk of my long working life. My point is that for some people, the commute is not that bad, but that there are things to consider.

        2. Eillah*

          How long was your commute? Three hours every day is….. bruuuuuutal. It also really sucks after a while when you realize how much off time you’re losing with the commute (time to shower, get your groceries, go see your friends, go to the gym…. living, basically). She’s never done a commute like this before and I don’t think she has a clear picture of how big a change it is and how much impact it can make on her. Bluaargh.

          1. A Day at the Zoo*

            My commutes to NYC have ranged from 40 minutes to 2.5 hours. My personal tolerance varied based on my life circumstances. It really is an individual thing. You can give your roommate your perspective, but ultimately, she has to figure this out.

          2. Cat*

            This is really specific to you personally. I had a 2.5 hour commute for years and it didn’t need really bother me. I used my train time to work in the morning and it was my decompression/reading time at night. Now I drive 1 hour R/T and I really miss going through a novel a week on the train alone and never having to deal with other drivers. I’m sure your friend understands google maps well enough to have figured out the commute will be long.

            Honestly, you’re describing a lot of things that you personally would hate, not things that are objectively bad. Yes, it seems like she’ll just about break even financially, but there are many many other reasons to take a job. Waiting on another job a recruiter has told you is a long shot (which could be due to insider info that has nothing to do w your friend) is not a good idea. Regardless of all of this, if they already accepted, its too late and your advice will not be helpful at this point. Keep out of this one.

            1. Eillah*

              Considering that her motivation for LEAVING her last job was being paid too little for what she was doing, I think my points that accepting a job where you are earning less money and losing 15 hours of the week (that you formerly had and used to their fullest potential) are valid.

              1. Deanna*

                Still her choice. You’re getting overinvested here! Back off and let her live. Yes, she may be making a mistake. You can’t prevent that. She’ll learn. Let her.

                You kinda seem to be posting in poor faith here. If what you really wanted was support and validation rather than advice, just say so. Don’t get ratty with people who are just answering the questions YOU asked.

              2. SunnyD*

                You’re focusing too much on being objectively ‘right’ rather than what you can (and should) control – ie yourself. Being right isn’t as important as treating her like an adult… Even if you turn out to be right on this one.

              3. Cat*

                What on earth are you talking about? You literally wrote above that her job was a toxic hell hole. For many people that would be a huge trigger for the depression you mentioned she has.

            2. Noo Yawker*

              And you know what? If Dream Job from recruiter suddenly comes through, maybe roommate leaves the second choice job with little notice. Her career will continue, and the world will revolve around its axis.

    13. RUKiddingMe*

      She’s your roommate yeah? Is she able with the new job to pay her share? If so, then no you really need to not involve yourself.

      Caveat: you could ask her if she has plans to move to NYC because that would directly affect you and as much notice as possible would be good.

      1. Eillah*

        She is, but she’ll basically have no money left over afterwards. If my math is right, she’s actually losing money (and time) by taking this job. Combine this with the depression she’s been feeling for about a year now and…. I’m not hopeful for her future.

        1. CheeryO*

          I really don’t think there’s any way to bring any of that up without sounding condescending. Maybe changing up her routine will be good for her depression, you never know.

          1. Aud*

            The long commute could also earmark time for her to read or pursue (sedentary, portable) hobbies she hasn’t felt she had time for. To that effect it might even be helpful, though I’m not discrediting the strain a long daily commute could have in general.

    14. LGC*

      You’re her friend, not her coworker – so that’s how you need to approach it, I think. Let’s say she was dating a person that you thought was bad for her – for example, they vote in a way you don’t like. You shouldn’t tell her to dump her SO just because their politics are bad (at least in my opinion), but you can certainly voice concerns if she asks for them. She’s a grown woman, and she can make her own mistakes if she wants.

      Also, things might be different for her. She may not dislike commuting as much as you. She might have a more flexible schedule with this employer. The job might be better in other ways for her. She might really hate driving – you didn’t say whether it was 10 minutes walking or driving.

      1. Eillah*

        She loves driving. 10 minute walk, probably a 5 min drive from our apartment. She’s never had to do a commute this long (and even if you like it [which is rare] it wears you down; it can’t not).

        1. LGC*

          I’m a NJ Transit commuter (almost 10 years), and my commute isn’t that much shorter. So I do have personal experience with long commutes! (In fact, aside from costs – my commuting costs are around $300 monthly – I’m in a similar situation to you and your roommate.)

          The fact it was a 10 minute walk makes this somewhat worse – but you also said the old job was toxic, right? And she already quit? In her case, at least in the near term, an effective pay cut and long commute might be worth it. Especially if she’s out of work currently.

          1. Eillah*

            As a native New Jerseyan– my condolences for having to deal with NJ transit/Penn every day :(

          2. Michaela Westen*

            I once had a job 9 blocks from where I lived, on a beautiful tree-lined street in a building full of vintage charm. I walked and browsed around on my way home, and that was nice.
            It was one of the worst jobs I ever had because the owner was so toxic. Walking to work was nothing compared to the stress of that job. I happily do a 1/2 hour commute by train now to a much better job.

    15. Anona*

      You can share with her one time your concern, and your experience (cost of commute, having to borrow from family, etc). After that, let it go. It’s ultimately her decision.

    16. pancakes*

      I don’t see how anyone here can answer as to whether you have “standing” to tell her this because we don’t know how close you are or what sort of friendship you have.

      I live & work in NYC and have never understood this sort of commute. Why don’t you two rent an apt. here together? Or with other roommates? A 30-day unlimited metrocard is $127.

      1. Eillah*

        I have another part time job in Greenwich, so I can’t move to the city. She has a car and doesn’t want to move into the city.

        1. pancakes*

          I’m having a hard time understanding why someone would want to work here knowing they don’t want to live here. If it was a particularly appealing job or paid very well, sure, but the job you’re describing isn’t either of those things. If I were either of you I’d concentrate on looking for work closer to home. Stamford, New Haven, anywhere in CT really. I grew up there & have family there, and have one step-cousin who makes the big commute from a shoreline town, but he’s an investment banker & making a crap-ton of money.

          1. Eillah*

            …Seriously? It’s…. very common, particularly in the outer NYC metro area. NYC isn’t cheap to live in (she says, living in f’ing Greenwich….). Some people like getting the city and the country. We have been looking closer to home but the reality for us is that the opportunities are mainly in the city.

            1. Over 60 & Forever Young*

              Hi Eillah! Yep, add me in as a native New Yawker who knows about the commute, it is very common to commute from the outer NY metro area! I was born and raised in Staten Island (still live here), and used to ferry it T/F when I worked in Manhattan – both downtown at Wall Street firms, and also in midtown. I once had a boss who lived in Greenwich (like you) and he did the MetroNorth journey. I’ve had coworkers who commuted from Westchester, Long Island, Suffolk County, Pennsylvania, you name it. We would share our journey experiences and commiserate. But it’s true, most of the jobs are in Manhattan; now some expanding to Brooklyn and Jersey City as well. *My employer offered a program called WageWorks – you set up your own account through the employer and could purchase your commuter tickets/passes each month, at a savings. Added bonus: the cost was deducted from your paychecks *pre-tax*! So you were taxed at a slightly lower income. It was great. Maybe your friend’s new employer offers something similar. Best of luck to her and thanks for being a good friend! Wishing you both success!

              1. CB*

                +1 to WageWorks or equivalent transit pre-tax benefit! I don’t live in the NYC area, but it’s super helpful for stretching out my nonprofit salary.

          2. BRR*

            It’s incredibly common to commute into New York for work. I live in Central NJ and was a bridge and tunnel person until recently. NYC is where the jobs are but there is literally not enough housing for all of the jobs in the city. Plus many industries can only be found in the city. It’s rare for a position to open up in my field in any suburb. My rent is also $1,400/month for a two-bed, two-bath apt with in unit laundry. If you take out commuting costs and car costs and move that money to rent, I still wouldn’t get anything comparable. Plus my spouse has a job out here.

            1. Thomas Merton*

              Yeah, my mother commuted from Phillipsburg, NJ (on the Pennsy border), to NYC for years. I took that bus myself a few times and there were folks commuting from Allentown, PA, to jobs in NYC (one guy went all the way to Brooklyn). NYC salaries + Allentown cost-of-living > 5 hour daily total commute.

          4. Kimmybear*

            People commute from New Haven to Manhattan because there are better jobs in NYC in some fields. Greenwich is an hour closer. And besides, commuting on 95 or the Merritt is not easy and finding jobs near MetroNorth stations really limits you. I live outside DC now and it’s the same problem.

        2. voluptuousfire*

          There are barre studios in Manhattan. There’s one on I think 15th or 16th and 6th?

          I get where you’re coming from but a move to NYC would definitely be a better idea. I live in the outer boroughs and take the express bus and mine is still pricey but half of what you pay.

          2. Eillah*

            So no, a move to the city is NOT the better idea (I went to college in the city and spent an addition 4 years in the city afterwards and frankly got sick of it after a while, so not only do I know what exactly a move BACK to the city would entail, I also know I don’t want to do it).

            1. Fulana del Tal*

              But lower Westchester ( or the Bronx) is a lot closer. While the commuting costs will probably be the same you could cut your commute to an hour. And there are barre studios here.

              I know several people who moved out to Orange County and Connecticut and then complain about the commute. It’s the trade off. Somewhere cheaper versus shorter commute.

              1. Eillah*

                I’m contracted to a specific studio in Greenwich for a year; so that can’t really change. Hopefully we could find something nice in lower Westchester but…. that’s kind of like finding a needle in a haystack.

        3. cmcinnyc*

          We have barre classes in NYC, so you could teach here. But moving to NYC is a giant hassle, NYC is a giant hassle, and for me, TOTALLY WORTH IT. But if you don’t want to be here, not worth it.

          1. Eillah*

            I’m contracted to work in a specific studio in Greenwich. I can’t move studios until 5/2020 (or, I could, but I’d owe about 2k in training fees).

    17. BRR*

      I might have missed this so my apologies if I did but what’s your goal? I get expressing your concerns, but then what? My concern is that you tell her you don’t think the job she already accepted is a good idea (for very valid reasons) but there’s nothing she can do.

      1. Eillah*

        I guess it’s to help her? To at least give her a clearer perspective to make a fully formed decision? That’s a good question, and one that I don’t have a great answer to…

        1. BRR*

          Sorry if that sounded harsh! If she was thinking over whether to accept the offer, I would likely have different thoughts. If her only option is to back out after accepting an offer, that’s not wonderful (although not as bad as starting the job then quitting).

          I 100% get that you’re doing this out of concern and the salary and commute make this a really unappealing job, but maybe there’s another way to express it that I’m not quite sure how to do. If I’m reading this right, she can’t really change course so it stinks to be told that this is not a great idea.

          1. Eillah*

            No no not harsh at all! An important question to ask myself for sure, and I appreciate it. She accepted the job kind of abruptly, so there really wasn’t a time when I could be like “oh, well, here’s my experiences” as the nice way of saying “BETCH DON’T DO IT!!!!!!!!!”

            1. Aud*

              I agree with everyone else and say share your experience once! If you an include some “here are tricks I picked up to make the commute more bearable” suggestions that will help warn her in a way that isn’t just telling her it’s a bad idea.

              1. Cat*

                I actually disagree with this pretty strongly. She’s not working and already accepted a job. Going back on that now because your friend wouldn’t want your commute is a very bad idea. There’s nothing to gain from this.

                1. Eillah*

                  She’s been “not working” for four days. It’s not quite at critical urgency yet.

                2. Cat*

                  She already accepted the job. Is critical urgency when she’s burned through all of her savings? You’ve already told us she makes very little money for a very expensive area and has little to no family support or nest egg.

                  You’ve obviously decided the right move is for her to consult you and pull out of a job she’s already accepted. It’s not a good decision, and commute time+ no pay increase are really poor reasons to go back on an acceptance, which can seriously damage your professional reputation. The fact that she has no current job to fall back on makes this potential damage even worse.

                  Number of days unemployed isn’t really relevant. Job hunting when youre not employed is generally best to be avoided. She could get another offer tomorrow or six months from now. You have no idea. You also said yourself further up in this thread that most of the jobs in your area are in the city, and you’re not willing to move, so she’s very very likely to have a long commute or a long job hunt either way.

                  You’re focused on giving her the advice that you know is right (but is actually a subjective opinion based on a fairly condescending assumption that she didn’t think things through). Focus on being a supportive friend.

                3. Eillah*

                  Cat, you’re being rude and assigning intentions to me that aren’t actually accurate. Knock it off.

                4. Cat*

                  I’m not. I’m just disagreeing with the statement that it’s a good idea to try to give this person advice, and pointing out the indisputable fact that you don’t know if her financial situation will become critically urgent before she gets another job offer.

                  I’m not assigning you any intentions. If I had to guess I’d say you very badly want to stop her from making a choice that you strongly believe is wrong. Maybe I’m misguided? What I’m pointing out is that you asked for advice, and are now focusing your attention on proving why you’re right and arguing with people who disagree with your POV, and that your friend is likely to shut down when she senses that you’re approaching this from the perspective that she didn’t think things through and generally can’t be trusted to make good choices, no matter how true this is. Your intentions are different from the way you focus your energy, and in this case I think they’re misaligned.

                5. Wake Up! !*

                  Totally agreed with Cat. Sometimes people who want advice really just want external validation that they’re right. OP probably has the best of intentions here, but she would still be in the wrong to try to manage her friend’s life to this degree.

    18. LawBee*

      Her finances, her business. It becomes your business when she can’t make rent, but until then, stay out of it.

        2. Lilysparrow*

          She is in charge of her own well-being. Even as a friend, this is not your place.

          As others upthread have expressed, to say once “Oof, that commute is a killer, have you done all the math on this?” Is fine for a friend to say.

          To expect to be consulted, or to have input on her long-term plans and career trajectory in general, is not okay.

          If she wanted you to mentor her, she would already have invited you to do so. You wouldn’t need to ask if this was appropriate.

          She took the job without consulting you first because she doesn’t consider you a mentor or seek your advice.

          That’s not comfortable to think about, but that was her choice, and it is rightfully her call.

          1. Eillah*

            I’m not expecting a consultation. I think you’re putting too much personal feeling into my intentions for bringing this up.

            1. Lilysparrow*

              You’re arguing pretty hard here, for someone who doesn’t have personal feeling involved.

              You may hate being wrong, and want to spare your friend from being wrong, but it’s not actually the worst thing in the world. Learning how to cope with & recover from being wrong is an incredibly valuable life skill. And once a person gains it, they become nearly unstoppable.

    19. a*

      I think you can certainly share your experiences, but you should be open to listening to what she expects to get out of the job. Some people find commuting time to be useful – it’s forced inactivity, and lots of people don’t get that any other way. You might find it annoying and exhausting, but she might find it a good time to read or listen to podcasts or nap.

      You will probably need to shelve your thoughts that she hasn’t thought this through – even if that’s true, it’s not going to be particularly helpful to say it. You can express concern, based on your experiences.

    20. Akcipitrokulo*

      As a friend, yes – say “can I share with you some experiences I had that might be relevant” (in your own words) and then spell out the financial and emotional issues.

      DON’T give advice!

      Give information. Then let her make informed choice.

      1. Akcipitrokulo*

        Ahem.

        “Don’t give advice” …. yeah… what I *should* have said is “Giving advice is often counter productive.”

    21. Ms. Anne Thrope*

      How on earth are there WS jobs that pay only 45k?!? That’s halfway decent in Scranton but not awesome.

      1. Eillah*

        Should have been clearer; Wall Street is the physical location, the job is as a compliance specialist for a nonprofit.

      2. Frustrated In DC*

        My first NYC job I worked in Lower Manhattan, just off Wall Street and my salary was $40K a year. It is a thing.

    22. Koala dreams*

      Since she already accepted the job, what’s the point of telling her now? Wouldn’t an employer that look down on short term jobs be even more negative about someone quitting one day or one week into the job, compared to someone who quit after one month or ten months? Let it go.

          1. Koala dreams*

            I’m sorry if I sound harsh, but I really don’t get it. How is it useful advice to her to essentially tell her that the decision she made earlier was wrong, and anything she does to fix it now will destroy her future? That’s just rubbing salt in the wound.

              1. Cat*

                Not really. It’s probably worse to go back on an acceptance now than quit quickly citing that the job was not as expected or another legitimate issue.

                You’re letting your own views of her judgement and feelings about this job really cloud your judgement. No matter how fast she accepted, she accepted.

    23. tacocat*

      I also live in FC and I wouldn’t DREAM of that commute without an offer that’s basically double what I’m making. I say you can mention it once, but she’s an adult and sometimes people just need to learn by doing.

    24. Delphine*

      You sound like a good friend with your friend’s best interests at heart, but it sounds like this is a done deal. All you can do is share your experience and then step back. It can be really tough watching people you care about make these types of mistakes, but it’s also not something you can control.

      Perhaps you could brainstorm ideas for when it does bite her in the ass–what would be the advice you’d give her then?

    25. KR*

      Sympathies. I have a friend who I really think could branch out from the work she’s doing (think stuck in fast food but has so much potential and is so unhappy) and it’s so hard to not say anything but I have to remind myself that she didn’t ask me for advice. It’s a bit different because y’all are roommates so how she’s making her money and her quality of life kind of affect you. I think however you say it, the overall message should be that you care about her and you want her to be happy.

    27. Tinker*

      I guess maybe you have different boundaries with your friend than I do with any of mine, but my shoulders are becoming one with my ears reading this thing.

      That second-to-last paragraph reads like the sort of planning one would expect from the person making the decision to accept the job — it’s really… surprising, let’s say… to see some other person independently deciding to make that analysis, and I’d be really taken aback to have a friend share that with me. Both that they thought they should be analyzing my life decisions in that level of detail, and then that they thought I needed to be told what their conclusion was.

      Additionally, maybe I’m a bit more tightly-wound about having an income than some folks, but if I had gotten to the point of quitting a toxic job apparently having not yet accepted an offer, I would be stressed as all hell and SUPER not appreciative of critiques that I’d then accepted a new job too quickly. Especially if the critique of the speed carried any sort of implication of “too soon to have asked me what I thought”.

      I think that peers who talk about their careers can by all means share information about what a given commute is like, but the rest of it — like, the bits where it doesn’t seem like a conversation between peers, for instance — wow, no, I definitely would not advise that.

      (And it is definitely in part a me thing, but if someone was that much up in my business with “I’m doing this because I care about your well-being” we would be So Incredibly Done.)

      1. Eillah*

        I think you’re reading more into my intentions than are there, and I’ll leave it at that to be polite.

          1. Lucy Too*

            There is no dilemma! Roommate has already accepted the job. If she now rejects the job, she has zero income and limited prospects. Roommate needs the job, has accepted the job. Elliah has no dilemma! Unless she is willing to pay Roommate’s expenses … there is no choice. It’s either unemployment with no income whatsoever, or a job that covers expenses AND gives a whole 15 extra hours of zone-out time. It doesn’t have to last forever. E clearly hates the commute but others here have clearly stated they developed coping strategies.

            I’m Team Tinker on this one.

          2. Cat*

            I really don’t see any snark here? Tinker and others are trying to shed light on how they think the friend might feel knowing someone theyre close to had judged not only their decision but their overall ability to run their own life this way, and also reacting to the fact that the choice has essentially been made. I really don’t see it as snaky and don’t think it was intended that way. You can disagree with someone without ill intent, which is one of the reasons I think the discussion here is so awesome. Personally that’s what I see from tinker here.

      2. Hepzibah Pflurge*

        I have to agree with you, Tinker. Knowing that someone close to me was, without my request, examining, weighing, and ultimately judging my life choices would be uncomfortable, to say the least, even though it seems Eillah’s heart is in the right place. Eillah, it may not seem intrusive to YOU to offer help/advice when you haven’t been asked, but personal boundaries are, well, personal to each of us. Add in the element of career and money decisions, and it potentially gets even squiffier to me.

        I’ve been the well-meaning person in the past who just wanted to help someone I care about by sharing the benefit of lessons I’ve learned the hard way, but (not surprisingly) it never ended well. My good intentions did not outweigh the fact that my life/values/opinions/experiences are not necessarily as relevant as they would seem to the other party – or even wanted.

          1. Former Employee*

            I am now officially confused. Didn’t you say that your friend already accepted the new job and quit her old job?

            If so, what would she do for a job if she backed out of the one she just accepted?

            While you are concerned for her well being, what would happen if she had no job for months and couldn’t pay her share of the rent? Are you willing/able to subsidize her?

          2. biobotb*

            But you are not her. How these factors affect her will be different than how they affect you.

            1. Eillah*

              She’s one of my best friends, I’m pretty sure I have an idea of how this is going to affect her. Jesus, you’re all acting like I think I’m her doctor and life coach.

              1. Eillah*

                The crux of my question is “do I have a right to say anything” but sure, bring in your own personal BS and make me seem like I’m a condescending bitch. Suuuuper helpful!

                1. Cat*

                  You’re taking this advice really, really personally, but people are just trying to help. You asked for advice, so people are offering their perspectives. No one is accusing you of being a bad person or a bad friend. You’re obviously very loyal and care about this person a lot. But giving unasked for advice rarely works out as the giver hopes, and people’s answers here reflect that. Good luck.

                2. Eillilillallah*

                  Fine.

                  Then no, you don’t. There you go. You have ZERO right to say anything. Butt the hell out.

                  Happy now?

                3. Gravy Trainer*

                  No one here has to do anything to make you seem like a condescending bitch. You’re doing that all by yourself. That’s kinda the whole point.

                  If you genuinely believe that’s unfair, read your responses here when you are calmer and have a bit of distance, and maybe you’ll see how your own position, comments and behavior are causing that. Then you can work on how you come across to people who only have the words you write to judge you by.

              2. Well...*

                I mean… that’s kind of how you aren’t coming off here to a lot of people, even if it isn’t intended.

    28. Clementine*

      You can encourage your friend, in a low-key way, to thoughtfully look for another job, now that she has one. Maybe she can earn a few hundred per month doing part-time gigs on the weekend.
      Wait and see if the disaster you fear actually materializes.
      Lots of people do worse commutes for years.
      But don’t catastrophize the situation. It is not ideal, but it’s not life-ending.

    29. OhBehave*

      You’ve described her as a close friend. I think you can absolutely share what you have learned. Based on your other comments, she doesn’t make the best decisions and doesn’t have a familial support system. She quit her toxic job quickly. She may have felt she couldn’t take it any more.
      You can start out by telling her you respect her decision but that you feel you must share what you learned. No one can truly know what this means to lose 15 hours a week on a commute until they get that experience. Everyone is different in how they would handle this time suck. Control this “I do have a tendency to be overly opinionated and a know it all” as much as possible in your convo with her.
      She may well have to follow through on this job while continuing to job hunt. I’m not sure what the reality is of her getting a raise in a nonprofit. It would be great if WFH is possible at least one day a week.
      Good luck and let us know how it went!

    30. in the air*

      Respectfully, it might be worth thinking about how you’ve responded to advice given here that deviates from the path you personally want to take, in a situation where you’ve specifically sought out advice, and in regards to a decision that isn’t particularly consequential (i.e. should I give my friend and roommate advice about something). Do you have reason to believe your roommate might respond better to unsolicited advice about a significant life decision she’s made?

  2. Redundant Department of Redundancy*

    So I kinda manage some guy who is terrible at his job – he struggles with out basic processes, makes frequent mistakes that he should be able to catch and he also slacks off. I say kinda because while we have the same line manager, when my line manager is out I deputise for her. It’s been 8 months since I raised his performance as a concern, and 6 months since I’ve started to give him significant support to try and overcome his issues. My manager is at long last going to be putting him on a PIP, this will be an informal one then after it’ll be formal if he still can’t meet the targets leading to possible firing. This will take months (maybe a year) as I work for a govt body that is notoriously bad at this sort of thing – ie with appeals and unions. I’m so fed up of how this is all being handled that I’m looking for other roles even though I love everything else about my role. Also of note is that my line manager is resigning (I’m going to be applying for the role but I know it’s not guaranteed). Also he knows he’s a bad fit and has admitted openly that he’s looking for other roles.

    Bascially do I:
    a) Stay and hope he finds another job and leaves soon?
    b) Stay and hope I get my managers old position where I will have more control of the situation?
    c) Focus on getting out even though it means leaving a role and department I love?
    d) Something else?

    1. SRF*

      Personally, I would just stop supporting this guy. It sounds like you’re really invested in helping him succeed, and he’s not as invested as you are. Everything else, follow your gut. If you like your job and/or want the line manager job- apply! There’s no reason not to. You can also start looking for opportunities elsewhere, or do both. But don’t hinge what you’re going to do on this particular guy.

      FWIW-I understand having a slacker coworker, as well. It’s SO frustrating and easy to get caught up in their crap.

      1. Redundant Department of Redundancy*

        Well part of the problem is that both my boss and grandboss keep telling me to be supportive. They seem to think that with enough support they will magically get better at their job. In practice it means that they aren’t actually seeing any consequences of their poor work.

        They seem to think that it’s a capability issue, but I think it’s conduct. I think he can do this stuff but he just doesn’t want to. He’s never apologetic for his mistakes, and has brazely lied to me in the past. Again all this was reported to my manager and I was told to just be supportive and understanding.

        1. animaniactoo*

          Supportive can be defined as “I understand that but I believe you are capable of doing better and I expect to see that from you.”

          Then you can say to your bosses: “I have been supportive. I have encouraged him, I have given him tools to succeed, pointed him towards where help lies, attempted to help him set up [X, Y, and Z] for a regular work flow to improve his output. There is not much more support I can do without actually doing his job for him, which I cannot do, and I can’t be more invested in him succeeding than he appears to be.

          I would understand if he was working his hardest at it and still failing, but that is not the situation and it feels really demoralizing when you tell me to just keep being supportive while he is not pulling his end of this.”

          1. Redundant Department of Redundancy*

            Ah I really like this script! As I am feeling so demoralized by all this, as when he makes a mistake it falls back on me in the end!

            1. Zombeyonce*

              I also recommend dropping the “I can’t be more invested in him succeeding at his job than him” line Alison used in another letter this week. It’s a really great one.

              Also, love your username. I used to have a shirt that said “Welcome to the Department of Redundancy Department. Welcome!”

        2. Hey Karma, Over here.*

          How are you supposed to support him if it’s a capability issue? Hey, we hired this guy. He can’t really do the job, so you need to make sure his work gets done.

          1. Redundant Department of Redundancy*

            I know right?

            Although I did sit on the panel where we interviewed him, but it was my first even interview/recruitment as a manager.

            I could kick myself now, but at the time I saw his job history and it was a lot of short stays ie 6-8months so he looked like a job hopper but he interviewed well (seemingly because he is a very good liar!!)

          2. boo bot*

            I feel like at this point it kind of doesn’t even matter if it’s capability or choice – if he can’t do the work, then they need someone who can, and if he won’t do the work, then they need someone who will.

            It speaks better of him as a person if he’s trying and failing, but in terms of filling the job, there’s really no functional difference.

        3. C*

          There’s “supportive” and there’s “doing his work for him.” Supportive, to me, means being available to answer questions, even maybe checking in with him to see if he has questions. SEnding him resources you think might help him (eg. “Hey, I found this excel shortcut online, and thought it might be helpful in compiling the TPS report”) and so on. It doesn’t mean picking up his slack or doing his job for him. Can you start shifting away from doing his work and more towards more passive support?

      2. Minocho*

        Yeah, giving yourself permission to not invest any more emotional energy in him – if he is a bad fit, that is not your problem – especially since your manager knows he has performance issues – you do what you can of your own work, but the shortfalls will fall on his shoulders until he carries his fair share.

        This advice is easy to give, and not always so easy to follow – I am a terrible hypocrite right now. :)

    2. animaniactoo*

      Job hunt because job hunts take awhile and don’t leave unless the opportunity is really really good while you wait for this to pan out.

      1. Redundant Department of Redundancy*

        This is good advice – there are a lot of things I like about my job so I’d rather not jump unless it was into something good!

    3. ThinMint*

      My inclination is B and C.

      I have a situation similar to this that made me want to start looking. Just giving myself that permission in my mind and starting to receive notifications on Glassdoor of open things made me feel better. I didn’t feel so stuck or aggravated by the situation at hand. So yes, start looking casually if you aren’t ready to fully commit to C.

      1. The other Louis*

        I think this is great advice. It could also give you standing with your boss and grandboss to draw some line between “supporting” and “doing his job” (it sounds as though that line is getting crossed. Being aware that you don’t *have* to stay in a crummy situation is so liberating–even if you do choose to stay!

    4. The Man, Becky Lynch*

      They tell you to support him but that shouldn’t mean that you’re doing his work or carrying this burden. He’s not going to be let go, given all the hoops but in the end, you’re going to be letting some inept person run you out of your job. Is there a way to break that emotional connection and just focus on your job? Otherwise then you’d most certainly need to work on getting out of the department but if you just go to another department, you’re still going to run into these creatures that find themselves in jobs they rarely get fired from. It’s such a no-win situation given the rules you have to play by to work in that structure =(

    5. Jules the 3rd*

      I lean towards a with a side of d: do what you can to not let his performance affect you.

      It sounds like b is not realistic – the external requirements (govt job, rules, unions) are the problem more than your manager.

      c: Depends on what ‘getting out’ looks like – don’t take any job that looks less than ideal, because every job has some drawback. A slacker co-worker is a relatively minor drawback.

      1. Abby*

        Job searching (especially interviewing!) can be full of useful information when you’re frustrated about something at current gig.

        Either you see that everything you consider has drawbacks that are worse than whatever your current annoyance is, or you see that your current frustration is actually a pretty bad level of dysfunctionality and you’d be able to do better.

  3. Hella Frustrated*

    I am the head our nonprofits communications department. I’ve been in this role about 3 years and this is my first job out of school. I haven’t had very much guidance at all which in some ways has been great and given me room to experiment, but not great in other ways like when a boundary needs to be drawn but I’m not sure how to do it. Which leads me to my question. There is one new-ish person to our org who is the head of one of our programs who has taken a mile when I’ve given an inch. At first I gave them a little more leeway since they were getting the lay of the land but now it’s come to a point of disrespecting my time and not trusting my skillset. Which has become very frustrating over the course of the past few months and has inhibited my ability to complete our tasks.

    I guess my main question is how much input can I allow this person to have when we’re creating the items that pertain to their department? With everyone else we have a preliminary meeting to flesh out the idea and then my team runs with it until we have a rough draft to show to make sure we’re still on the same page about the direction and everything is usually hunk dory or we make minor changes. It’s gotten to the point where this person is trying to dictate what I prioritize when I have many other programs to promote and they don’t understand the time constraints or manpower need to do some of the things they’re requesting. It doesn’t help that they are decades older than me. When I initially started my boss told me that the program heads can dictate how they want their programs to be portrayed, but after these issues Boss has come around to the notion that my team and I know how best to craft the stories we’re telling and the information we’re putting out and the program directors need to defer to us with the style of the information we’re putting out. So I guess I’m having trouble asserting and putting my foot down because even when I do they try to weasel around it. I’m sorry this is such a rant. I’m basically at the end of my rope. How can I be open to the input of the department heads without losing my authority and having the power to decline their ideas that I don’t want to pursue?

    1. Minocho*

      It sounds like this PARTICULAR dept head is the issue, and your working relationship with the others is working well? If this dynamic is becoming increasingly a problem across the board, that’s one thing. If this particular department head is the crux of the issue, that’s another.

      I have some experience as a software development contractor, where I wasn’t allowed to say “No” (per management), but was still expected to steer projects for clients. I would clearly outline the costs of decisions, and as changes increased the difficulty or development time, their bill would increase – things would occasionally get out of control, but would rapidly right itself when the bill got big enough.

      You’re not really billing them – instead, you only have so much time and energy, and you have your own standards to meet as well. The department head trying to reprioritize his desires over other departments is an easier thing to push back against. For the design clashes, there may have to be push to meet company wide standards and enforce a style guide – think about why you disagree with what they want, and look for patterns – this can help you create your style guide if you don’t have one. I would think consistency would be a big part of creating a recognizable brand.

      1. Hella Frustrated*

        Thanks for your response! Yes, everything has been going smoothly with the other department heads. It’s this particular person who is a problem. I’m actually right now developing an brand guide that I aim to finish by this time last month that I hope will alleviate some of these issues. One of my main frustrations is that this person will continually deny me access to their program’s events that I need to get high quality pictures of and then take it upon themself to take cell phone pictures when I have a whole team of people whose job it is to take photos of our events. Or they’ll disagree with me about a social media post that I’ve already posted (which I’ve started to refuse to edit). This person is also very difficult to communicate with in the sense that all of our in person communications will be fine and we’ll end our meetings on the same page. But the follow ups are completely out of left field and totally different that what we talked about.

        1. Minocho*

          Can you create a work order document that is filled out during the productive meetings, and get a sign off there? Use their aversion to in person conflict to get reasonable agreements documented and agreed to? Then amendments require delays, etc.?

          Or maybe you can short circuit the wildly divergent follow ups with immediate email followups of the meetings:

          Dear Bob,

          Per our last meeting, we agreed that:

          1. The lions shall not be housed in the same area as the fattened cattle
          2. The lions shall be housed in an area that prevents the visitors from entering the lions’ area, and the lions from entering the visitors’ area.

          I am proceeding as we agreed above. Please let me know if I have misunderstood any of the above action items.

          1. Hella Frustrated*

            Yes! I’ve started recapping all our meetings in emails just to have some sort of record which has definitely been helpful when things get skewed.

        2. animaniactoo*

          Go to your boss immediately about her refusal to allow you to send someone to take professional photos and supplying you with cell phone photos instead.

          That is the kind of thing that you need somebody with more weight/authority to tell her is unacceptable and she MUST work with your department on this aspect.

          I have $5 that says the reason she doesn’t want people from your team there is because she’s doing something she doesn’t want people outside of her dept to be aware of – either something she’s been told not to do, or just knows it’s not quite kosher even if it is (hopefully) effective.

          1. Busy*

            I second this. Maybe it isn’t, but my experience has been that people who try to keep other people out of things are hiding something 100% of the time and 100% of the time what they are hiding is in fact nefarious.

            1. Hella Frustrated*

              Yes, it’s been really sketchy from my perspective. Like they want the media stuff to happen, but don’t want to let us in to do it, and sort of wants the subsequent projects done on their own terms. Which… is not going to work for me.

        3. Seven hobbits are highly effective, people*

          Is there anything about their events that would mean they’d be worried about photographs and confidentiality? In a lot of non-profit work related to children or to groups with a lot of social stigma attached, photographs are often taken to carefully not reveal the identities of the clients. If they’re the only department working with such groups and your comms photographers aren’t used to thinking about that when choosing shots, it would make sense for them to want to provide their own event photographer who understood the need to frame shots in those ways. In that case, it’d be a case of trying to work with them to get one of your photographers trained in how to photograph that kind of event so you can get high-quality photos that work for that department.

          I suppose there could also be issues if it’s more on the donor-wooing rather than the client-services side and one or more of their particular donors does not like to be photographed. I’ve had situations where I convinced a certain reasonably high-profile person in a specific area of expertise to come to a non-profit event to present on their own dime, but they do not like to be photographed and wanted no photography at their presentation. I had the most obnoxious fight with our photography team about the whole thing. (Their presentation was technical and not particularly photogenic. “Engineer stands on stage talking” more or less sums up the visual here.)

          1. Hella Frustrated*

            Nope, the events are mainly internal and everyone has release forms. It’s actually worse because at the events that are public, they include other kids in the background which my team knows not to do.

          2. That Girl From Quinn's House*

            This was sort of a problem I had when I worked in aquatics. Someone in Communications would want to take pictures, but they wouldn’t make sure we had photo releases of all of the people in the photos. *Even children* who they were legally bound to do so.

            Then on top of that, we had concerns about the appearances of safety. A photo where the lifeguard is in the background mid-blink looks like the lifeguard is asleep, which is terrible advertising, for example, but marketing wouldn’t look for things like that before publishing the photo. But other managers would spot it, and the lifeguards would get in trouble for it, “Why are you asleep in this photo, there are kids in the pool!” It was bizarre.

    2. Krickets*

      Whew!!! Nonprofit Comm is a good way to get experience in the comms field but also a challenging one for many reasons. I’m sure other more experienced commenters would give better advice, but I’ve been in your position before and it really sucks–especially when they’re trying to reorganize/reprioritize your tasks for you to finish what they want.

      Some thoughts that come to mind:
      -Do you trust yourself to be objective when hearing new ideas and are able to weigh them for its own merits?
      -I think if you have several templated responses such as, “Thanks for bringing up this idea. However, I am currently working on x, y, and z to meet the deadline for our fundraiser” or “Thank you for the idea. I’m not sure in what capacity I can work it out in the moment because of our priorities for this press rollout, but I’ll note it down” or “Our team is actually going in the direction of x at the moment per our boss Jerry, so we’re doing the best we can to adapt the stories/images/assets in time for what we’re putting out” OR >>> “You have a good point, but unfortunately we already have several concepts in motion for the campaign that have been developed and are in the final stages of execution. Sorry, but I don’t think we will be able to pursue this for now.”

      Don’t let them run in you into the ground. It’s kinda nice that it seems like your boss is giving you autonomy by deferring to y’all about the style of comms, but it’s also *seems* like boss needs to step in and say something? Anyway, I wish you all the luck in the world because it’s not easy in a nonprofit. :)

      1. Hella Frustrated*

        I’ve really tried to be good about analyzing exactly why I will or will not want to proceed with an idea or what tweaks an be made to make it viable because I’d really hate to be the person to ditch an idea just because of it’s source.
        Thanks for the templates, those will be really helpful.
        It’s weird because my boss seems to be on my side when we talk (and I know their needs to be some amount of diplomacy involved), but I think we’re just all at loss without there being distinct guidelines on who has the final say on these things.

    3. ragazza*

      Seems like this may come under the dreaded “responsibility without authority” problem. Can you/have you talked to your boss about this issue? Using AAM terminology, something like “I’m having trouble prioritizing my work since Program Head wants me to make more changes, etc., on their stuff than is usual, and it is cutting into the time I can spend on other things I need to do. How would you suggest I handle this with/communicate this to them?” This is something your manager should help you with, and then he/she is also aware of the issue. It is difficult when you are younger and ESPECIALLY when it’s your first job, so it’s helpful to be able to point to someone with more authority who has given YOU authority.

      1. Hella Frustrated*

        I’ve let my boss know these issues basically since they first started to creep up. At this point it’s getting a little troublesome because my boss is planning to step down by the end of the year so I really think having something I can point to and say ‘no, I have the final say on this’ would be great.

      2. Fortitude Jones*

        Yup – it is long past the time for Hella Frustrated’s boss to get involved here, especially since it’s one person acting up. The manager may have more context for why this department head’s behaving this way and may have more standing to address the issue.

    4. animaniactoo*

      You have to limit the weasel’s ability to find somebody to give them a tidbit.

      Note that you’re dealing with somebody who is likely always going to feel the way they do and try to operate this way, so do not focus on trying to change them.

      Work with the rest of your team/your boss to stop them being able to cut you out and trying to go around you. Make sure that any additional requests from her directly to them are funneled back to you for discussion/approval/rejection.

      If she has a problem with that, let her have a problem with that – but politely and firmly. “My team has many priorities. We do not have the manpower to focus as many resources as you would like on this.” “I understand that you would like it done differently, however what you want is not consistent with what the org presents and my team is in charge of making sure that it is consistent and therefore we need to do it this way.”

      She tries to draw you into an experience debate? “I respect your experience, however I have successfully been leading the way our team handles this for 3 years now. We are, of course, open to hearing about your experience but the final choice about this is ours, based on our own experience.” This is what you say the first time. After that, you say “Yes, you’ve mentioned that before and we’re always open to hearing your input, however it is my team’s responsibility to decide how to handle this.” – Note, you want to stress this every time. She may have the experience, you have the responsibility.

      If you do all of this and there continues to be an issue that you can’t handle more or less gracefully, that’s when it’s time to push it up to your boss. And, in fact, now might be a good time to sit down with your boss and outline these plans for dealing with her and asking if they have any issues or suggestions for your plans.

      1. Hella Frustrated*

        Note that you’re dealing with somebody who is likely always going to feel the way they do and try to operate this way, so do not focus on trying to change them.

        That’s a really good point. We’re actually at a good point in our org’s history to lay down guidelines and rules in a way that won’t completely upend things. I’m planning to talk with my boss soon (basically whenever there’s time in their schedule for me) on on what guidelines should be implemented, especially with regards to who has the final say. And I’m planning on having an org wide talk on new ground rules (even though this director is really the only one who needs hear it).

    5. Not So NewReader*

      Have you spoken to your boss about this?
      I would be tempted to ask the boss about standardizing on your photos and ask about how many revisions you need to accept from this person.

      The revision thing slays me. Some people are not decisive and this is what indecision looks like. They torture themselves far more than they torture us most times. Can you work with an idea that you allow 24 hours after a plan is made for revisions? After that 24 hour period you cannot accept more revisions because the ball is in motion.
      It might be helpful to think of indecisive family members and what ways you use to help them to land on a decision. His inability to make decisions is his problem but it does not have to be your problem.

      You might find ways to guide him by suggesting, “The last time we had something similar to this X situation, you really like solution ABC. I think ABC would work well again here also.” I find that people do not mind being reminded of what they have liked in the past. It gives the new project more of a familiar feel to them.

      As far as the photos maybe you can get a big boss to put their foot down and end that forever. Or maybe you can hold a cell photo up next to one of your photos and show him the actual differences. This may be time consuming, but it might be a wise investment because:
      1) It’s a chance for you to show your knowledge in a subtle way.
      2) It’s a chance for him to talk about the differences in the pics, it may come out that he has certain things he prefers in photos. It could even be that you are already doing those things.
      3) You might gain some points in your favor by putting in the time to bring him up to speed to what you are doing. Sometimes issues have nothing to do with the immediate problem. Perhaps he just does not see the need for some aspects of your work.
      4)I have found that it’s a useful tool later on to be able to say, “Gee, would you like us to talk about this and I can show you?” Usually the person wants to learn more but the higher issue is the sheer amount of time it takes to run through stuff. So they cave in and say, “No, I believe you. Let’s go with what you are saying.”

      Going the opposite way, does he have a good friend who works well with you? Perhaps that good friend can chat with him. You can ask the friend by saying, “Perhaps you can help Bob. He seems to have a lot of changes on plans and he seems determined to use his own pictures. I was wondering if you could talk to him a bit about these things…” Or you could ask them if they have ideas on how best to help Bob arrive at ideas he is comfortable with.

      1. Hella Frustrated*

        Yes, my boss knows the problems and seems to agree with me that I’m doing what I can but I don’t know what their conversations with this other director are like.

        I think maybe a side by side comparison would be good. It’s just so frustrating to have a team full of specialists (which most nonprofits don’t have!) and be blocked out and sent grainy poorly framed photos.

        Most other people I talked with have had similar problems with this person. I just have it a lot more often because I’m one of the only people who work with all of our programs

    6. LKW*

      Some of this stuff you might be able to alleviate if you can work with your boss to establish standards and policies. For example, if anyone wants pictures of events to be published in any social or print media, a formal request for a photographer must be submitted. Photographer will be selected only by the communication team. No photos will be accepted from cell phones or non-approved sources without approval of your boss. If she makes no requests, she gets no pictures.

      But she sounds like she’s too big for her britches.

      1. Hella Frustrated*

        Yes, I’m actually pulling together guidelines as my current project over the next month or so and I think this would be excellent to add. Thanks!

        I think I was just too loose this year with this director being new and no one else needing boundaries like this…

      2. MissBliss*

        I agree– make it a rule that cell phone photos are not accepted and explain how to request HQ photos. Of course, you’ll have the ability to accept photos on a case-by-case basis, but the difficult person is not saying “one of our staff took this great photo on her phone!” and sending them to you. DP is saying “I took these photos at the event.” They planned for that, when they should be planning to follow procedures.

      3. June First*

        The guidelines should help, especially since you’re also working on a branding guide. In my nonprofit, we have seasonal employees and I just sent out my “Flyer and News Release FAQs” since another manager “forgot” to tell new staff that I need to approve flyers before distribution. The FAQs are basically a list of what info I need and the expectations for the project.

        I try to use a “Hey–this is the fun part of my job!” tactic, or sometimes “Let me take that off your plate”.
        I do tell people I need at least 24 hours’ notice for some projects, or sometimes longer. Working with an agency that provides crisis services, I’ve had case manager say, “I NEED 200 BROCHURES BY 2PM AND YOU’RE THE ONLY ONE WHO CAN DO IT!” Sometimes coworkers are so used to triaging crises, they forget that most projects require notice.
        Not sure how applicable this is, but thought I’d offer.

  4. Hey Karma, Over here.*

    So I’m currently seeking a commenting commando to attack this article with stealth and style. Must have laser focus and ninja noun knowledge to compete in this cutting edge commenting environment. High school diploma or equivalent required. BS preferred. 10 + years commenting on online forums, Jedi level persuasion abilities a plus.
    Or if not, at least anyone who saw this in their news feed yesterday!
    https://www.theatlantic.com/health/archive/2019/06/looking-for-a-job-americas-listings-are-inscrutable/591616/

      1. Hey Karma, Over here.*

        Full disclosure: So did I! I could not get sucked into seeing real world examples of this abomination.

    3. Sashay, Blue Stay*

      If you were able to get past para 1… “More than ever, it seems, hiring managers are looking for extremists: You can’t just be willing to do the job. You must evince an all-consuming horniness for menial corporate tasks.”

      Be aroused by menial takes? Nope. I’m cool

      1. SunnyD*

        That was my favorite line too. It perfectly encapsulated how inappropriate and ludicrous those job listings are.

    4. Kira*

      I just finished job searching and they are so ridiculous. I guess it gives you an insight into company culture, and exactly how out of touch the person writing the job listing may be? The worst is tech jobs where in addition to all this, they want 7 years experience in something that has existed for 5.

      1. Narvo Flieboppen*

        It’s not just tech jobs where the listings are ridiculous.

        I attempted to apply for what is considered an entry-level position in, say, llama tracking services (outbound). The job description specifies “Bachelor’s degree or 5+ years of work experience in the field”. Okay, I don’t have the degree, but I have 15 years experience in the field, and specifically in outbound llama tracking.

        The first question in the automated application process: Do you have a Master’s degree? When I answer no, I get dumped out of the application for failing to meet the minimum requirements.

        I go back to the add, verify I didn’t misread it, and then contact the job poster to let her know about the issue. Her response: “I know the ad says Bachelor’s or work equivalent, but we’re only interested in candidates who want to excel in the field and that means having a Master’s degree. If you don’t have it, we’re not interested.” She hung up on me when I asked why not just put that in as a requirement in the job listing.

        Bright side, I definitely know I don’t want to be working for that company and I can safely ignore any future postings from them.

        3. Inexperienced Llama Wranglers Anonymous*

          I keep running to the opposite, must have a bachelors and 2 years of experience in our industry, or a PhD in lieu of experience. I have a PhD and 2 years of supporting their industry from an adjacent one.

          Open application, do you have 2 years of experience in our industry (with no box to explain answers)? No… Kthxbai. Or worse, it lets me fill out the application and sends an automated rejection within 5 min. I prefer the ones that kick me out before wasting my time.

    5. Yuan Zai*

      From the article: ‘Older, more experienced professionals are generally turned off by employers looking for extremists, as are parents. “You’re going to get mostly young men,” Siegel says.’

      This is a feature for these organizations, not a bug.

      1. The Grammarian*

        Yeah, agreed. They’re trying to filter people out. It’s terrible. They are also filtering out people who are searching for jobs by using common keywords for their desired positions, not “Customer Service Care Bear” or whatever.

        1. alphabet soup*

          My favorite: a customer service role advertised as “Chief Happiness Engineer.”

          Yikes.

          1. MarsJenkar*

            An image comes to mind of a mad scientist building a machine that forcibly makes people happy via brainwashing…

            “UNLEASH THE HAPPINESS RAY! MUAHAHAHAHAHA!”

          2. Zephy*

            My personal favorite is when they rebrand a receptionist position as “Director of First Impressions.” FOH unless you’re ready to back up that “director” title with a “director” salary.

        2. Double A*

          And when you’re looking for actual ninja positions these postings really kludge up your search, smh.

      2. Not So NewReader*

        Yeah, as a 50 something woman, I would have no interest in ads like these. To me it reads like they think their company is a big joke.
        And basically there are no hard facts about the job itself. If they don’t know what they are looking for then I sure as heck am not going to know what they are looking for.
        I do pick up a “no oldsters need apply” vibe from these ads.

        1. Miss Astoria Platenclear*

          This oldster is tempted to show up for an interview in an actual ninja outfit or Aladdin Sane facepaint. “But – you said…”

        2. Windchime*

          Yeah, I get the “no oldsters” vibe, too. And I’m cool with that, because a job as a Stealth SQL Ninja probably means I would also be expected to engage in Nerf battles or beer pong tournaments. No thanks.

      3. Hey Karma, Over here.*

        The next generation of old boys net work…wow. I thought it was just juvenile. I see now. It’s insidious. And I stand 100% behind that statement.

      4. Busy*

        Yes. They also like to exploit the high-achieving insecure type who like validation from outside sources. See: All characters in How to Get Away With Murder lol.

    6. Ella P.*

      Director of First Impressions at a Real Estate firm… with exciting job posting to match, peppered with exclamation points!!!

      witch please, it’s a receptionist job and you don’t offer benefits… next!

      1. Zephy*

        Willing to bet that “director of first impressions” is a combo receptionist/greeter/HR/finance/office manager/EA.

        1. EinJungerLudendorff*

          At minimum wage of course.
          After all, they only do first impressions. Everyone can fake it for five minutes!

        2. Kat in VA*

          Kind of off topic, but I’m seeing more and more job postings for my job (EA) that are just that – answer calls for the company (not just your exec), order supplies and keep the kitchen clean (operations/office manager responsibilities), handle budgets (this one keeps cropping up and it’s multiple budgets now), AP/AR (isn’t that for…well…AP/AR in Accounting/Finance?), HR onboarding duties, and various other additional job functionnsn that would normally warrant a full time person in and of themselves.

          I get that sometimes an EA can wear all these hats in a very small company, but these are much larger companies that are condensing the hell out of several jobs and then pasting “Executive Assistant” on top of it.

          Of course, they want to pay the princely sum of $50k per year for this rat-king of a position.

    7. Elizabeth West*

      UGH.
      Dear Employers,

      1. Do hire from within if you’re able. You likely already have knowledgeable talent.

      2. TELL ME WHAT THE JOB IS. “You are a passionate ninja rockstar” means nothing to me. What will I be doing all day?

      3. Stop looking for a unicorn and make one. Hire good people and train them!

      4. All this means nothing if the pay and benefits are shit.

      1. Not So NewReader*

        Agreed. I assume all the hype is there because there really isn’t any pay and benefits to talk about.

        1. thinkofanamelater*

          Ugh. If I have to pay decent salaries, I won’t be able to buy a third yacht.

        2. Busy*

          Yeah they kind of have the ring to them of those job ads where you end up selling meat door to door.

        4. blaise zamboni*

          Yup. The article ends with this point too, which is…saddening:

          “Siegel sees plenty of resistance to offering things applicants might actually want—namely, money and flexibility. In a survey ZipRecruiter conducted last year, he says, most employers said they were focusing all their recruiting efforts on job listings themselves. “Instead of doing things like lowering the skills required or improving the pay, it was all about how much they were spending on more job boards or more recruiting solutions,” Siegel says. “There was a real resistance to responding to the market that was telling you that if you want to get good talent, you have to improve your offer.”

          In other words, few people seem to want to do the duties of a rock star if they’re not going to get paid like one.”

      2. Jaydee*

        “Stop looking for a unicorn and make one. Hire good people and train them!”

        YES!!! A unicorn doesn’t exist in the wild. If you try to find one, you’ll end up with a narwhal or rhinoceros. They are probably fine, but not really what you were going for, and there’s no easy way to make them more unicorn-like. Your best is to get a regular horse and train it to wear a unicorn costume.

        Also, recognize when you’ve created a lavender pegacorn with a glittery rainbow tail and mane (the employee who has taken on a dozen different roles over 20+ years at the organization, for example) and don’t expect to replace them with another lavender pegacorn with a glittery rainbow tail and mane. Probably you will need two or three horses. If you’re lucky, you might have a candidate or another employee who is a particularly glittery horse or a grey pegasus or a unicorn with a rainbow horn (all of which are excellent and probably meet many of your actual needs, but just maybe not 100% of what the previous employee did).

      3. Iron Chef Boyardee*

        If I was a “rockstar” of any kind, I wouldn’t need to be job hunting. Companies would be seeking me out.

    8. Zennish*

      …You want me to be a “rock star”? Bono makes 115 Million a year, what are you offering?

    9. Mellow*

      Bah – reminds me of how everything now is a “journey”: customer experience journey, credit journey, home buying journey, etc. How about a “we’ll lower your interest rate significantly because you’ve paid on your bill on time for years and years” journey?

    10. Curmudgeon in California*

      *snerk*

      Yeah, job postings have gone from mildly annoying to outrageously ridiculous.

      Everybody wants a unicorn, but is only willing to pay peanuts.

      Plus, I’ve lost track of how many places brag about their “Modern Open Office” like it’s a feature, not a organizational bug. These clueless recruiters seem to think it’s a great selling point for a job, whereas for most people it’s a serious downcheck.

      1. Inexperienced Llama Wranglers Anonymous*

        I just got an itinerary for an all day interview next month and it is NINE 45 min interviews. Anyone have advice on how to keep energy up as an introvert for that long (I’m used to a decent amount of meetings, but generally find 5 or so to be my daily energy limit)?

        1. Lynn Whitehat*

          I’ve done it. I suppose they take you out to lunch at some point, so that’s not a break? You’re kind of trapped. All I can say is, make sure you take care of your bio needs, so you’re not ALSO drained by hunger or something.

  5. She's One Crazy Diamond*

    At my organization, there are these special assignments for professional development called rotations where you temporarily work in another position, usually at a higher level than your regular work, and once the assignment ends you return to your regular position. I recently applied for one, and if I was selected, was wondering how I would list it on my resume.

    1. Just Elle*

      I just list it like I would any other job, but put (Rotation) to help explain the shorter timeline.

      The Best Company Ever, 2010-Present
      Sunshine Provision Expert, 2019-Present
      Manager of Candy Distribution (Rotation), 2018-2019
      Wishes Granter, 2010-2018

      1. Garland not Andrews*

        Another term commonly used in government for this situation is “Detail”.

    2. Admin of Sys*

      how temporarily? If it’s < 6months, I'd probably list it as a bullet point in the existing job, with something like : 3 months cross-training in llama grooming.

        1. Just Elle*

          I think 6 months is enough time to list it separately along with bullet points for what you learned. But maybe think more along the lines of 2 bullet points instead of 4.

    5. Transplanty*

      Call it a secondment. That’s how I usually see it.

      Secondment is defined as the opportunity to work temporarily in a different firm or department to the one you are already working in.

    6. Canadian Jessie*

      In Canadian Federal Government, we call them Acting assignments. So I’d list it as

      Trade policy Advisor (CO-01) – Sept. 2014-current
      Senior Trade policy Advisor (CO-02 Acting assignment) Jan. to June 2019

      (CO denotes a level)

  6. Success story in speaking up to HR*

    I wanted to share a success story from a time I spoke up to HR about my old boss when I was leaving the company during an exit interview that made a huge change in how he interacted with employees after I left.

    I was the executive assistant for a very successful man in the city I live in. He was a great guy but had some quirks. He was a big hunter, which is popular where I live, and pretty much constantly talked about it in an oversharing I don’t want to hear this manner. I’m an animal lover and hearing this was awful. When I first started, after about 2 weeks I was calling around to staffing agencies because I didn’t think it was going to work out. I would cry on my way home because I couldn’t believe anyone would just openly speak about that kind of stuff with zero regard to how other people feel.

    Eventually I learned to tune it out, but it still very much bothered me. He even went on a hunting trip to Africa and showed me photos of animals he killed (AWFUL!!). He was not the type of guy you could go to and say this bothers me can you please stop talking about it, he was an older, conservative, very traditional kind of guy with the mentality that he can do what he wants because he’s “the boss.” Speaking up would have also dramatically changed our relationship, which was a good one. Since it’s popular where we live and popular in the industry, in meetings it would even be discussed. So annoying.

    I had been at the company for just under 2 years when my old manager contacted me offering me a position with the company I was previously at. I did miss working there as well as working for someone who was flexible and didn’t speak about hunting, so I took it.

    During my exit interview, HR asked me how it was working with boss man, so I was very candid about everything. He wasn’t approachable, had awful mood swings and spoke down to people, and constantly talked about hunting in a way that is offensive. I went into detail about things he said (which I won’t repeat here because they make me very sad). They said they would talk to him and remind him of the zero-retaliation policy.

    I recently had a chit chat with a woman I worked with while I was there who still works with him and she says he’s totally changed since I left. Never speaks of hunting. Never has mood swings or speaks down to people. Happy ending

    1. SuperAnon*

      So maybe there’s a bit of a lesson there: some situations *might* benefit from a trip to HR.

    2. Moray*

      It sounds like there were plenty of issues with his management style, but he can’t really be blamed for talking about hunting specifically if he had no idea that there was anyone who didn’t want to hear about it.

        1. Fortitude Jones*

          Exactly. If he gave the impression that he wasn’t going to be receptive to anything that fell outside of his own worldview, OP or anyone else who had an issue with him but said nothing can’t really be blamed for not saying anything. She had no way of knowing if he would retaliate at her someway.

      2. Elizabeth West*

        Nah, if you are a person who trophy hunts, you KNOW there are people who are bothered by it.

    4. HeatherB*

      I’m glad you got out of there. I would NEVER be able to work for/with someone who hunted endangered animals – especially from Africa. And to see photos!!!

    6. The Man, Becky Lynch*

      Argh, I would have lost my mind at being shown pics of the murder safaris he went on. That’s so wildly out of touch and archaic.

      I’m glad that HR took this seriously and things were fixed! I’m always pro-tell HR but know that a lot of departments are pretty worthless and make things even worse. So glad this has a happy ending and nobody is subjected to that kind of horror again.

      1. Minocho*

        I want to go on a petting safari, though. That would be cool. The problem is I want to both pet a tiger and keep both of my hands.

        1. Elizabeth West*

          Ha me too. Remember that video where the cheetah leaped into the safari vehicle? If that were me, I would have been in trouble, haha. “Awww KITTY!!!” *chomp*

          1. such a letdown*

            I have petted cheetahs and I hate to burst your bubble, but their fur is wiry and coarse :-(

            1. Kat in VA*

              Honestly I wouldn’t care. I! am! petting! a! cheetah! is all that would be screaming through my brain cells.

        3. Former Employee*

          You might get away with it if it were a lion rather than a tiger. Lions have been known to bond with humans and are generally considered to be somewhat mellow for being big cats.

          From what I’ve heard, tigers aren’t much for bonding. I think that the only warm interactions they have are between a female and her cubs.

        4. TechWorker*

          Lol this is my bfs dream. We did manage to do an ‘experience’ at a zoo where you fed tigers bits of meat through the netting of their enclosure.. even that was pretty intense. Less cuddly though.

    7. Beth*

      My first job out of grad school, I worked for a REALLY awful manager. I’ll call her Mandy.

      It was a place with a one-year contract at a time for everyone in our type of work; at the end of any given year, if they liked how well you had done, they would ask if you would accept another contract for the following year. In my exit interview, when I was asked about the next year, I replied “I might consider returning, but not if Mandy is also returning . . .” and then laid out exact details of exactly why I would not even consider working with her ever again (incompetencem, and using her underling’s work to cover up her incompetnece, was the least of it).

      I brought up some information I had gleaned over the year: that I was the third person to fill my role in three years, which meant next year would be the fourth in four years, and the person who had filled my role the previous year had left mid-contract after a big showdown of “Either fire her and let me do her job officially, or I will leave.” He had not been given Mandy’s job, on the grounds of it being “his word against hers”; this was one of my reasons for speaking up. With me, it was now two people’s words against hers, and the second one had nothing to lose.

      Last I heard, she had left that field entirely and was no longer pretending to the work that she hadn’t been competent to do, so yay! Whoever followed me ultimately ended up better off. For my part, I found better work in a better place.

    9. Artemis*

      I’m a hunter and this really bums me out. When guys like this talk about hunting (of any kind) with zero sensitivity for other perspectives — and with what sounds like very little respect for the lives he took — it just paints all of us with the worst brush. I’m really sorry that you had that experience, and it’s awesome that you were able to create that change for others working with him!

      1. SunnyD*

        The hunters I’ve known have been very thoughtful, and focused on feeding their families and herd culling so they don’t all starve.

        And from my view, better lives for animals than factory farming, which is so awful they made it illegal to photo or film inside. But sadly not my skillset, and illegal to pay a hunter for meat.

  7. Eleanor Shellstrop*

    I had my annual review this week and got a 10.5k raise! They offered 5.5k and I asked and I got it! I was pretty underpaid to begin with and now I feel like I’m adequately paid for my position and it feels awesome.

      1. Half-Caf Latte*

        username checks out. Well done, Eleanor. Are you gonna blow it at the bar or are you gonna donate it to a charity in Chidi’s name?

    7. The Grammarian*

      Congratulations! Hearing these kinds of success stories gives me hope for myself and for other women in the future. I can’t wait until Alison hosts that open thread.

    8. lawschoolmorelikeblawschool*

      And hopefully you don’t have to sell fake medicine to old folks to earn it!

    11. Fortitude Jones*

      That’s a fantastic raise! Congrats! The most I’ve gotten without leaving a company is 10%, but it was tied to a promotion. To get that much to continue to do your current job? That’s awesome!

  8. Sunday Morning Fever*

    The saga continues with our new(ish) associate. The one who likes to tell me he agrees with what I tell him to do or tells me that he was thinking of doing the same thing (after the fact), which I think is caused by the fact that he refuses to admit when he doesn’t know something.

    I did have a conversation with him about a particular scenario. I told him that I didn’t expect him to know everything and I got the impression he felt he had to respond immediately if I asked a question or requested more information. He did not have to respond immediately. I said I expected him to find the answer and he could ask me if he wasn’t sure how to find the answer. (He said I hit the nail on the head… great.)

    Then this week.

    He alphabetized a list and the items that started with “the” were alphabetized under the letter T. (He is 35+ years old)

    I edited an email he sent to clients. He said, it looked great (again, I’d rather him tell me he understood the edits, rather than tell me it looks great, but moving on.) But he had one change in regard to grammar that he learned from his old boss. At the time I said he could use whatever version he wanted or adjust the sentence to take out the offending phrase. Except, I’m pretty sure he took his lesson in grammar out of context. Because I checked with my Grammar Nazi friends and they all said what I had written was correct.

    But now… Now, I feel like I just have to accept the fact that I’m not capable of managing this person’s growth and he will always be what he is.

    1. SuperAnon*

      I have a coworker who constantly says, “That’s what *I* thought!” when I answer their question or make a suggestion.

      Well — if you thought it, why didn’t you say it first? Or answer your own question? BECAUSE YOU DIDN’T KNOW.

      1. CAA*

        I’d be so tempted to start answering all her questions with “what do *you* think?” and waiting for an “I don’t know” before responding.

    2. Auntie Social*

      Re the “The” filing: Our criminal-defense law firm had a temp come for one of the name partners who was in trial. So basically she had to answer phones and help with correspondence from other people in the department. She said she was pooped from reorg’ing the filing because it had been a mess! This partner was meticulous, mess wasn’t even in his vocabulary, and temp was never told to reorganize anything. Turns out she had filed everything under P ( People vs Client) or S (State v Client), making two enormous files. We explained that’s not how you file in criminal law, and told her to put it back ASAP. She sulked for the rest of the week.

      3. Nessun*

        Reminds me of the old Are You Being Served episode where the secretary to the CEO files everything under “A” – A Letter, An Invoice, A Pink Slip…

      4. cmcinnyc*

        Oh… my… wow… Did it at no point occur to her, wait… this can’t be… EVERYTHING under P or S? She never noticed the FILING NUMBERS? oh man oh man oh man

        1. Lance*

          Better yet, to ask someone before doing a huge file reorg like that. Presumably people other than her still have to look through those files.

      6. Canadian Jessie*

        My mom had an employee that filed everything under first names, instead of last. And would argue til she was blue in the face that it was supposed to be done that way. And would not accept any proof otherwise. Mom made her refile everything “the wrong way” (by last name) and the employee told everyone who would listen how backwards my mom was :P

        1. Lady Olenna RIP*

          Our school librarian filed art print samples by Michelangelo under A for Angelo. And then argued about it with the art teacher.

      1. Phoenix Programmer*

        Agreed and I posted pretty much the same on the prior open thread, with more specific approach suggestions. OP needs manage him and stop quitely fuming that DR is not picking up on their preferences with their current passive methods.

        OP you have the power to address this and should stop abdicating your responsibilities with this “oh well DR will never change attitude” when you actually have most of the power.

      2. Sunday Morning Fever*

        I appreciate the insight and while I agree that it’s better to say something than fume — what I’m fuming about is not the issue of behavior or experience that needs to be taught or refined. It’s a lack of common sense that I don’t believe I can teach. For every item that is filed under T because it starts with “The” that I might correct or advise, there is another right around the corner. This isn’t an issue with just his professional behavior, it’s an issue I have with his personality and lack of awareness. And I honestly believe that not only would it be detrimental to the work he does do well, but actually unprofessional of me to micromanage his personality.

        So I will fume and attempt to figure out the best way for me to manage my way around it, unless it does involve his work or his interactions with other people.

        1. BethDH*

          I remember thinking when you posted before that he was younger than 35 — stuff like “don’t file using ‘the'” are things most people start to absorb even if they haven’t done filing themselves (because they have to use filing systems that others have created). Same with learning whether your grammatical situation is a matter of taste or is functionally wrong.
          You *might* be able to encourage him to take a minute to think things through as a general practice, because it sounds like the message he needs is not to be thinking “Can I show that I’m right?” but rather, “What is the effect on clients/coworkers/company of what I’m doing?”
          I definitely was that person about wanting to be technically right even if I was situationally wrong for a long time. Again, though, I think most of us grow out of that so he may be hopeless.

        2. Lana Kane*

          I understand your point. As a supervisor, a lack of common sense is extremely difficult to train around. It means that even when the person finally learns the specifics of their job, they will still likely make mistakes or errors in judgment that their peers wouldn’t. It feels like constantly putting out tiny fires, when really, the answer is not to keep playing with matches.

        3. Ms. FS*

          I just came here to say something about “common sense” or the lack thereof because I’ve just experienced my boss telling me and other directors in our org that we need to use our ‘common sense’. The idea of common sense differs by organization, sector, person, boss, etc. It is not so common in my mind. Case in point – in my last job I worked with and communicated with outside stakeholders in very high positions and would rarely tell my boss about it unless it affected her or the organization. This was my job as a senior director. In my new job, my boss wants me to cc her on these same types of communications, edits my emails, and wants to know what was said and how it was said if over phone conversations. When I failed to cc her on a fairly benign email the other day, she said I lacked common sense. That’s untrue – I don’t lack common sense, I lacked an understanding of how she prefers things to be. There is a difference.

          So I use this example OP to suggest that you remove judgement words from your vocabulary and focus on specific behaviors to provide feedback to this person. He may not improve – in which case he lacks the skills to adapt to your feedback. But framing it from a common sense perspective I think is not helpful and is pretty subjective.

          1. Former Employee*

            This sounds completely different to me. The example you gave is a preference. The fact that your boss sees their preference as being equivalent to the common sense approach doesn’t make it so.

            The example that OP gave was unequivocally one where using common sense equated to doing something the right way. The idea being that even if you never filed things yourself, if you are a 35+ year old individual, you should know that you do not file by “T” when the first word is “The”. As someone else pointed out, you would know that because by the time you are over 35 you would have looked things up and realized that is not how filing works.

            You also don’t put someone on hold and then go on break; talk to clients about the details of your [fill in the blank with something extremely personal]; or eat garlic before a big meeting.

            1. SunnyD*

              Not eat garlic before a big meeting? Preference (and based on your own ethnic/cultural rhythms – some cuisines just do garlic).

              Knowing how to alphabetize when responsible for filing? Basic requirement. Not really common sense so much as basic knowledge one expects of adults (non-dyslexic ones), especially for this job.

    4. Close Bracket*

      “again, I’d rather him tell me he understood the edits”

      Did you ask him flat out in so many words whether he understood the edits?

      Fergus: “This looks great!”
      SMF: “Did you understand all the edits?”

      “At the time I said he could use whatever version he wanted or adjust the sentence to take out the offending phrase … they all said what I had written was correct.”

      This really read like, “he could use whatever version he wanted as long as he acknowledged that I was correct.” Don’t set someone up to fail with you like that. If he can use whatever version he wants, he can use whatever version he wants without you going to other people for validation that you were right and then using that to build up your grievance with him.

      “I just have to accept the fact that I’m not capable of managing this person’s growth”

      Sounds like that’s the best path forward.

      1. Sunday Morning Fever*

        No, I said he could use whatever version he wanted and I meant it… I didn’t know if I was right or wrong, so I asked friends of mine who would know. They said I was correct. So he corrected my grammar and I confirmed (for my own future knowledge) that it didn’t need to be corrected.

        1. Jasnah*

          This sounds like you gave corrections you weren’t sure were accurate? And let him make the choice on whether or not to use your corrections? So he chose not to use your corrections, and then you went back and confirmed you were right, and now you’re mad?

          Why not just tell him what to do and what not to do, rather than presenting false choices and getting frustrated when he doesn’t read your mind?

    5. Quinalla*

      Ugh, the not being able to admit you don’t know something is so annoying and off-putting. My son (5) is very quick to say “That’s what I was going to say, Mom!” when he clearly doesn’t know but thinks he should know after I tell him something. I’m very much trying to break him of what has become a habit. I’ve definitely run into this sort at work too, though honestly they don’t last long in my field because pretending you know more than you do gets you in over your head so fast you either figure it out and stop or fail so spectacularly that you are done with that company at least.

    6. LGC*

      HE’S 35?! I’M SCREAMING I THOUGHT THIS GUY WAS LIKE 23

      Like, just – wow. This dude is my age. And he has a professional job. And he doesn’t know how to alphabetize.

      So anyway, I apologize that you (or whoever was in charge) hired a full grown Fergus. I feel like…since you know he has no common sense, you might have to treat him like he has no sense and explain WHY you’re treating him like that. It’ll feel patronizing, but he’s clearly incompetent in certain ways. And honestly, it’ll be kinder for him to know straight up that you have these concerns.

      Also, pick your battles. Like, putting everything with “The” together is a battle worth fighting since that can have downstream effects. But the email might not be, if his suggested grammar isn’t terribly wrong. (You did the right thing in letting him use his discretion.)

      For what it’s worth, I…agree that you’re not handling this perfectly, but also you’re human and honestly I want to fire this guy now. At this point, it might be easier for you to just bring up your concerns in a one on one meeting – I can imagine that in the moment, you’re so irritated with Fergus that you can’t give the “correct” response.

  9. Hiring In Remote Areas*

    Any advice on hiring in remote areas (45+ min drive from nearest major city)?

    Bonus points if you’ve done it for part time/freelance roles that have sporadic scheduling. Just curious because this is one of our work challenges. Pay is standard so that’s not one of the issues.

    Right now, our solution is to give current employees an extra hour of pay to cover Remote Location but there are some that are so remote that nobody would go because the gas it takes to get there isn’t worth the $ they would be making.

    1. Just Elle*

      What about offering standard IRS reimbursement rate for mileage for commuting to the job?
      “Beginning January 1, 2019, the standard mileage rates for the use of a car (vans, pickups or panel trucks) will be: 58 cents per mile for business miles driven”

      As someone who grew up in very, very rural area I do kind of laugh at the commuting woes. I think there’s ways to advertise to people who want to live in areas like that – but might have to recruit nationally. But the pay/part time nature makes me lean more toward just reimbursing people for their commute.

      1. Jen Mahrtini*

        This will help attract people, but needs to be treated as taxable income if it’s for a normal commute.

        1. Kathleen_A*

          Yes, exactly. It’s a nice thing to offer, but the IRS says that commuting miles are not business miles, so you need to find out how to handle this so that your employees don’t face tax penalties.

          1. Just Elle*

            It sounds to me like the long commute is not a usual commute, more of a “you get stuck on the rotation so its your time to go to the far away place” thing. If that’s the case I think it would qualify. If not, I’d just plus up the reimbursement to equivalent after-tax amounts.

            1. Hiring In Remote Areas*

              It’s tricky. It’s more of a “We have a llama that needs to be groomed at Remote Location with no real schedule – sometimes once a month, sometimes once every 3 months, sometimes twice in one month. No llama groomers want to go to Remote Location. Boss offers a ‘bonus’ and still nobody wants to go because it doesn’t make sense financially/llama needs to be groomed on a Friday afternoon in heavy traffic so a 1 hour trip can double. Boss ends up cancelling llama grooming in Remote Location.”

              1. Kathleen_A*

                Yes, it is tricky. I’m not saying it’s not doable, but it’s something that will need some research, that’s for sure.

              2. Gumby*

                I am not sure there is a way to find people who want to take jobs that will result in them losing money.

                I see two possible solutions: pay enough that people don’t lose money on taking those jobs (so pay for commute time) or stop taking llama grooming jobs in Remote Location – just accept that it is no longer in your service area.

                If you were meaning to ask how to hire someone who already lives in Remote Location for an extremely part time and not at all predictable position – your best bet is to look for someone who might be looking for just a teeny extra side-job and train them from scratch. It is unlikely that there are a plethora of experienced llama groomers already living in Remote Location just waiting for you to have the right recruiting trick to hire them. If there were, they would already be grooming the llamas and no one would hire you to do it.

              3. SunnyD*

                I always got paid for my non-commute travel time, and was reimbursed for travel costs (gas, tolls, mileage/wear on my car).

                If what you’re asking is how to get people to both do a difficult unpopular task, AND have them swallow company business expenses … the answer is you don’t, ethically and as good business practice.

                If what you’re asking is how to recruit already-local people, do research in the community. Ask local government. Look for employment groups. Look for 4H (or non-llama equivalent). Look for high schools (students or teachers), community colleges. Call the gardening club. Advertise on local Craigslist. Be careful about asking churches or other religious orgs unless it’s kosher for your org.

      2. Hiring In Remote Areas*

        What are some ways to advertise to people who live in areas like that?

        Company is trying to cut down on “travel expenses” – last year the company spent well into the low 6 figures paying employees travel $. Boss gets told “you need to hire people who live in Remote Area to do sporadic job” but Boss ends up just “bribing” current team members to go.

        In order to even be part of Company, all team members must attend orientation in Large City and orientation is paid at a lower rate than Sporadic Actual Job.

        1. Jules the 3rd*

          Maybe focus on growing someone local more than on finding someone with existing qualifications?

          Does the remote area have a high school? Can you partner with teachers at the high school to do local internships? Maybe hire one of the high school teachers for the summer / part time in school year, and have them oversee interns as part of a class?

        2. Seven hobbits are highly effective, people*

          Could you offer a “hard to fill location” signing bonus to offset the hassle of the orientation/training in another city at that lower rate?

          If the area has some kind of community hub, advertise there (consider having something you can tack to a bulletin board promoting the job). Specifics will vary with the area, but there may be such a bulletin board at the local post office, grocery store, hardware store, feed store, grange hall, church, school, town hall, or other place that people tend to go regularly. (The area may not have all of those things if it’s very rural, but probably has at least one of those things. I once lived in a town with a store that sold hardware, commercial logging equipment, and liquor rather than having those three things in separate stores.)

          Find out what you can about the economics of the area – do most people there already have work? Is that work seasonal? If so, is your sporadic work during the busy time or the slow time for that seasonal work? What about the training/orientation you’re trying to get people to go to? You are not going to get a lot of people who will take on a sporadic seasonal job during, say, commercial fishing season in a fishing town unless it pays better than fishing because everyone already is working that time of year.

        3. That Would be a Good Band Name*

          I’m not in recruiting, but I live in an area like this. The best way to advertise for locals here is to find a local paper to place an ad. Indeed with specific mention of the area is also good as people who are looking for work are always jumping all over anything that is close. I drive 45 minutes to the closest city for work and a job close to where I live is the dream but generally in my area you have to be related to the right person to get anything that comes open.

          If the area works like it does here, orientation in Large City wouldn’t be a deal breaker. Most people I know travel to other cities (anywhere from 45-90 minutes) at least weekly to shop, go to the movies, etc. Several are like me and drive 45+ minutes daily for work.

          1. That Would be a Good Band Name*

            I forgot to mention facebook. Search for (Remote area) jobs or (Remote Area) Help Wanted or even the for sale (yard sale) groups that are all over facebook. I know a recruiter who does all of her advertising on fb for our small area and a local farm only advertises through there.

      3. Beth*

        The company might be able to use the standard mileage reimbursement as a basis for calculating a remote location work bonus — just be certain to have the amount of the bonus end up as the AFTER-tax amount, not the pre-tax. It’s an easy calculation to do; other firms (including my current one) use it when they want employee bonuses to be after-tax amounts.

        1. Hiring In Remote Areas*

          We use the pre-tax amount for the bonuses. The bonus is not large – at most it is equal to an hour of pay.

    2. Anonymous Educator*

      Can the workers work remotely? Or do they have to actually physically travel to that remote area?

      1. Hiring In Remote Areas*

        The job requires you to physically travel to that remote area. If it involved working remotely, I would pick up those shifts (and I’m sure others would too!)

    3. Midge*

      Would it make sense to reimburse for travel time *and* to expect lower hours on site? I guess that could go either way. But as someone who was laid off because her position moved an hour away, making it impossible to balance home and work life (would basically not be able to see my toddler while he was awake 5 days a week…), I know that total time away from home can be a huge concern for some people.

      I also agree with the commenter who suggested trying to hire more locally to the remote areas. As someone who lives 45+ minutes from a minor (not even major) city, I can tell you that the job markets out here can really suck. Even for those with a lot of education and skills, we don’t have a lot of choices, and often have to wait a long time for an decent opening. It’s different from living in or near a big city and having the ability to choose from dozens of employers/positions. You might be pleasantly surprised at the talent and workforce you find if you advertise in those more remote areas. So many people living there because of family (in my case, spouse’s career) who are just looking for a decent job.

      1. Hiring In Remote Areas*

        What are some ways to advertise our job opening to someone like you? Or, where do you look when you are job searching? Craigslist ads will yield responses such as “I don’t live in Remote City but if you’re ever hiring in Major City, I’d love to work for you!”

        The shifts are short as it is – which also ties into the “nobody wants to drive there from major city” so there’s no way to get less hours on site.

        1. Aphrodite*

          I’d see if there is a local newspaper, perhaps a weekly. Of if there are any community/neighborhood websites. Are there community centers where you can put fliers? Or local community leaders you can contact and ask them to spread the word and inform you of places where you might be able to advertise. What kind of sources where the community comes together for events and meetings exist there?

          1. Jaid*

            I’ve seen placemats in diners that advertise businesses. You probably could try there, too.

    4. MoopySwarpet*

      Could you have them clock in at the regular office and pay them mileage and time to go to the remote area? I would think if the start/end points are at the main office, the travel between the office and remote areas would be considered business travel vs commute.

      Offer PTO for those hours of commute plus a bit extra to cover gas?

      Can the company offer company vehicles to remote workers?

      IRS publication 463 has all of the rules for travel and car expenses. It looks to me (at a glance) that mileage can’t be reimbursed from home to the main place of employment, but can (maybe) be for travel to the remote location since the main location is the employer. This is the 2018 version so the amount listed is wrong, but I don’t think the main details have changed for this year.

      1. Curmudgeon in California*

        IIRC, if their main place of work, where they get their supplies, where they get their timecards signed, etc is the main office, then having them always “clock in” at the main office then drive to $remote_site would be allowable for reimbursement for mileage, especially if the $remote_site shifts are on a rotation.

        It looks like
        a) Everyone shows up at main office, signs/clocks in
        b) People doing remote/field work that day pick up their assignments & equipment
        c) People doing field work drive to $remote_site on the clock and get paid for mileage
        d) Field/$remote_site people come back to the main office, file reports/timecards/mileage, drop off equipment
        e) Everybody signs/clocks out at the main office.

        That lets them rotate the $remote_site work, pay people for the hassle, and be able to switch people out as they need to, and still be able to have the mileage on the clock.

        Note: IANAL, IANACPA, YMMV, check with your company tax advisor.

    5. KR*

      We have job sites in extremely remote areas. We either hire local or hire someone who works remotely & is “based” where they live and pay them for their travel to the job site.

    7. WS*

      I live in a remote area (45 minutes each way to get groceries) and there’s a lot of people who have several small jobs to keep them going, plus a lot of female farmers who work lots of one-off or low hours jobs during school time to bring in a bit of extra income to the farm. Searching locally (usually a local newspaper or Facebook group) might be a good way to go. Do they have advance warning, even just a day or so, of when they’re going to be needed? Can the job be done in school hours?

    8. Reliquary*

      I have an inkling that many years ago, I used to be exactly this type of llama groomer.

      I would (almost) always take the sporadic Remote Location work because in return, I got an explicit commitment that doing this thankless (and barely remunerative) work would put me first in line to choose the type of llamas I would be grooming and the schedule of said grooming during our peak periods of work in Urban Hub.

  10. le sigh*

    Major Gift Officers – I am starting a new MGO role which is a step up for me, I’ve always been a jack of all trades generalist in development. Plus I’m moving somewhere where the budget is no joke nearly 30 times larger than my old job.
    What do you wish you had known when you started an MGO job?

    1. anon for this*

      Not a MGO myself, but I work in prospect development and can share a couple insights.

      -Your job isn’t to convince people who don’t want to give that they should give. Your job is to align the donor’s passions with what your organization does. Someone with lower capacity who loves your org will be a better prospect than a billionaire who’s gone to an event or two but is lukewarm about your cause.
      -On a related note, giving is engagement. Don’t fall into the trap of thinking someone has to be schmoozed into making a gift. People who have philanthropic inclination want to give their money away, and they’re looking to you for advice on how to do it most effectively at your organization.
      -If you have them, leverage your partners in the annual fund and planned giving in developing holistic, donor-centric strategies. A rising tide lifts all boats and only deepens the donor’s engagement.
      -If you can, invest in a polished wardrobe, whatever that means to your constituency. I work in higher ed where the rule is business dress for donor visits, and I used to work for a nonprofit where the rule was sheath dresses and artful jewelry. It sounds shallow, but appearances matter in this field. You don’t have to go full designer by any means, but paying attention to fit and neatness goes a long way.

    2. MissBliss*

      Congratulations! I would love to hear more about your journey to becoming an MGO, which is where I think I’d like to end up. I’ve been in development for 4 years sort of doing the jack of all trades thing, but I’m now at an organization that is large enough that people specialize (and the major gifts are actually pretty major). How long have you been in fundraising?

      1. le sigh*

        Thanks!
        I’ve been in fundraising for about 5 years but I also spent two years on the grantmaking side. It’s been a little trial and error to find my way here. The places I’ve worked in fundraising until now have never been large enough for a separate major gifts portfolio, individual giving at all was always an afterthought to be honest.
        I had an event planning background from college, both volunteer and work study which helped when I was looking for jobs. Over time I did what I could to move away from that and into more individual giving. Getting this job was mostly luck that someone was willing to take a chance on potential, I have had measurable successes in several areas that translate to major gifts and understanding philanthropy which I think was important.
        good luck!!

    3. Mels*

      Congratulations! I’m a second-in-command in the development shop of a larger local nonprofit, with an emphasis on major gifts. First, “anon for this” has good insights. A few other random notes:

      – Don’t get sucked back into the non-major gifts work. SO many MGOs go astray this way. Major gifts takes focus, thoughtfulness and time to gain traction.

      – Your job is to build the relationship between the person and the org, not to be their personal friend. But be friendly and personable. It can be a tough balance but it’s critical.

      – Too many fundraisers are actually afraid to ask. Get comfortable with using clear language to ask people to give. “You are so passionate about this work. Would you be open to me sharing some ideas about how your support can have an impact here?” … “A gift of $xx could do yyy – would you be willing to consider that?”

      – Create a menu of how people can give and what that means. For example:
      $1k could purchase books for student for one semester
      $10k would allow us to send five kids to summer camp
      $100k would fund this veterinarian for our shelter
      $1M would create an endowment to support families with babies in the NICU
      Having these tools at your finger tips makes the giving conversation easier.

      – Form strong relationships with non-fundraising peers. They are your partners; use them to help cultivate and steward your donors.

      – Know that major gift fundraising is hard. We influence behavior but we don’t control our prospects. We hear a lot of “no,” get a lot of no response, etc between the peaks. You have to be able to stay focused and optimistic in the in-betweens, and sustain your activity, or you’ll just be miserable and not gain the traction you need.

      That said, if you can do all this and a million other things I didn’t list ;) it can be super rewarding and a very fruitful career path. Good luck!!!!!

  11. BlueWolf*

    A friend of mine is looking to get back into an office job after several years of working service industry-type jobs (Uber, restaurants, etc.). He has previous office experience between internships and a couple years at an office job just after college, but it has now been about 3-4 years since he has worked in an office. Does anyone have suggestions for how he should format his resume to have the best chance of getting an interview? If he can actually talk to a hiring manager, I think he will be hired no problem because he is smart and a good communicator. He thinks it’s better to only list his related professional experience and skills and not list his recent jobs at all (and therefore have a several year gap on his resume) because he thinks no one will even call him if they see his recent experience is Uber and restaurants. However, I think it would be better to have a section for related experience and one for other experience, so that they can see he has been (and currently is) working. Thoughts?

    1. Murphy*

      I think it’s better to list what he’s been doing. My resume is…not the greatest in terms of relevant employment. I’ve only had one person treat it as a problem (and they were horrible in general) but everyone else has either not asked about it, or if it came up I was able to communicate what skills I did pick up in those situations.

    2. Just Elle*

      I structured my resume into two sections:
      Relevant Experience:
      Other Experience:

      This allows me to show the full history and not have weird gaps, but the most relevant ones will be highlighted first.

      I’m also not a lover of objective statements, but in this case it could be a good way to explain why he’s looking for a field change. “Excellent communicator looking to transfer customer-facing experience into a career development opportunity.” (or whatever)

      3. BlueWolf*

        Thanks all. This is exactly what I was thinking. Highlight the relevant experience first and then the other experience section is there for context to explain the “gap”. I think he’s just feeling insecure about it because it’s been such a long time and his last office job was not a good environment, so I think his understanding of how the professional work world works is skewed.

        1. Just Elle*

          In this case, I think any job is better than no job. And if he has a big huge blank spot on his resume it will read like he had no job.

          If he can, it would be helpful if he could get himself mentally on the offensive instead of the defensive by rehearsing explanations of how each ‘not-relevant’ job has been a learning opportunity that translates into an office environment.

    3. Alice*

      I think he should list it and explain in his cover letter what transferable skills he has demonstrated in those jobs. The cover letter is more important than the resume.

    4. The Man, Becky Lynch*

      Yeah breaking it down into relevant experience and other experience is the way to go.

      He’s in a real ugly spot right now because honestly, he won’t get many call backs because of him being out of the game and in the contract business for awhile. This is where he needs to make sure he’s sending out awesome cover letters to get his foot in the door.

      I know that the resumes that have come through with that kind of job history tend to be very low on the call back list. However they are completely pitched out if they appear to be without work for 3-4 years without heavy experience and we’re in a real crunch.

  12. workerbee2*

    I work on a small team as a high-level individual contributor (I have a manger title but no one reports to me). Earlier this year, my department got a new boss, my grandboss, Abigail. I e-mailed Abigail on Monday. It was about two sentences long, with the second stating that I wanted to work from home on Wednesday. Her response (also via e-mail): “Love it!” That’s it.
    Wednesday rolls around, and Abigail is furious. She sent me a task at 9 PM Tuesday that had a hard deadline of 8 AM Wednesday. My typical in-office hours are 7-3:30. We have some flexibility on start time, and the rest of the team’s schedule is more like 8-4:30. I was working offline (at home, as outlined in my email from Monday) and didn’t think to check my e-mail until about 9 AM. I had a lot of work-related reading to do, and e-mail is extremely distracting when I’m trying to read. Abigail sends me an angry email about how I caused all sorts of problems for her by not being available that could have been avoided with better communication (a.k.a. better communication from me).
    She’s clearly livid by the tone of her e-mail, so I called my manager, Samantha, to ask her what I should do. I felt like I needed to defend myself but couldn’t figure out how to do that without coming across as defensive and making things worse. I outlined everything that happened, including reading her the relevant e-mails, and Samantha says, “Abigail’s way out of line here. You didn’t do anything wrong. Don’t respond, and I’ll talk to her about it in my one-on-one with her on Friday afternoon.” She went on to say that it’s not reasonable or consistent with company culture to expect me to be tethered to my e-mail 24/7, and that if something that urgent with that tight of a turnaround time arises, it warrants a call or text and not just an e-mail.
    I’ve been an anxious mess since Wednesday morning, because I don’t like not meeting expectations and angering Abigail any more than she does. She and I have had an on-and-off contentious relationship since she started here, but things have been so much better recently that I was finally starting to relax. None of our problems have centered around the work, but more around her implementing rules that are not the norm for other teams in the office, such as strictly enforcing the company’s 8.5-hour butts-in-seats policy by having security give her the records of when we swipe in and out of the building. (We’re all salaried and consistently meet all work-related goals.)
    I comply with all of Abigail’s demands, but I can’t seem to build any lasting rapport with her. It’s like trying to climb a blank wall. I’ll feel like I’m making progress, then something like this happens and I’m back to square one. She never gives me any benefit of the doubt, despite the fact that my work quality is good and Samantha has never had any problems with me in the several years I’ve been employed here. (And not because she’s overly permissive. She did “manage out” one subpar employee a few years ago.)
    Is there anything I can do here besides look for another job? I’d rather not have to do that because I like the work, the pay is decent, and the benefits are good. In addition, Abigail is really smart and knowledgeable in her field. I could learn so much from her if we could stop having these interpersonal issues, which bleed into the work (my engagement, productivity, etc.) because I’m not a robot.

    1. LaurenB*

      Did you forward your original email to her (showing that she approved the Wed work from home)?

      1. Jules the 3rd*

        Won’t help with the adversarial relationship werkerbee2 describes – that would only escalate.

        1. workerbee2*

          Yep, that’s exactly why I didn’t do it, no matter how badly I wanted to. I have a general need to be “right,” so showing restraint here was a big personal victory for me in working against that.

      2. workerbee2*

        I wanted to, but didn’t. I was worried at how that would come across, especially via e-mail where it can be harder to decipher tone and when she was already ticked off and even more likely to view it in the worst possible light. I’m fully prepared to politely defend my actions should she confront me about it in person.

        1. Frustrated In DC*

          Man, I would have.

          Per my email…going forward…copied Samantha so we are all on the same page…please confirm (blah blah corporate buzzwords/attaching emails/etc.) .

          1. Fortitude Jones*

            I would have too and said something like, “Hi Abigail. Maybe I misunderstood, but per the email chain below, I was under the impression I had permission to work from home Wednesday. Going forward, should I send you follow-up reminders a day in advance of any work from home days?”

            My last manager used to regularly forget when I’d WFH or come in late after a dentist appointment, so I got into the habit of forwarding her email reminders the day before and texting her the morning of so she wouldn’t be blowing up my phone or email asking where I am.

    2. Officious Intermeddler*

      I don’t think you can change someone who manages like that. I had a boss who did that kind of thing once, and when I got some distance, it became clear that her unreasonable last-minute requests (way outside of business hours with insane turnarounds) were due to her own chronic disorganization and lack of time management. She constantly shifted the burden of dealing with that kind of work to subordinates and then came down hard when the work couldn’t be done (or done to her liking) in that kind of timeframe.

      I came to the conclusion that she would have to change how she handled her workflow, and I just didn’t have that kind of control as a subordinate. Good luck.

      1. workerbee2*

        This is the first time the last-minute thing has come up. The timing was an unfortunate coincidence. The issue is more that Abigail basically accused me of believing that I had the ultimate authority to decide I could work from home when SHE’S THE BOSS, meaning that she either forgot that she told me I could, or that she didn’t really read the e-mail I sent her. She wants to come up with a more concrete process so that she has calendar reminders with everyone’s work from home days. I actually think that’s a good idea, but so that she remembers and doesn’t go off on me for not showing up for work. I fail to see how her not remembering is my fault, and that’s the thing with her – nothing is ever her fault.

        1. Officious Intermeddler*

          If she were a well-organized worker, or even a reasonable boss, she’d either 1. remember that you asked for time off or 2. at least check her sent folder before she went ballistic. She’s bad.

          1. Jules the 3rd*

            well, now wait – Alison often says that managers don’t often remember details of who’s working / off when, and that’s just reasonable. Not remembering isn’t the sign that she’s bad.

            The signs that she’s bad are
            1) *emailing* a tight turn-around request with no call or text notification and
            2) going ballistic when the problem is her own.

            I agree with Officious Intermeddler, that you can’t change someone who manages like that. It sounds like she ‘goes ballistic’ regularly; even if this is the first time she’s screwed up on a deadline issue, the anger issues are clear from werkerbee2’s description.

            Werkerbee2: Trust your manager, this is not on you. Unfortunately, you don’t have status enough to push back effectively. Your manager might. HR might, if you can document a pattern that rises to the level of bullying.

            Talk to your manager about the pattern you have seen. Ask:
            1) Are there changes to your work that you could do to satisfy Abigail better?
            2) How much control over your work / career / promotions / raises does Abigail have?

            Document all your unpleasant interactions with Abigail, including:
            Time, Date
            Context (eg: In meeting re: Topic with attendees A, B, C)
            Wording as closely as possible to the original, along with why they’re concerning (eg, She said X in a disparaging / sarcastic tone) (tone is so hard to capture….)
            You probably won’t be able to use them, but it can be reassuring to have the details written down.

            1. workerbee2*

              The thing that’s so insidious about her is that she comes off as really, really nice (if she’s not your boss). She also goes in the other direction at times, giving effusive praise for things that are basic parts of my job. She even does little thoughtful things sometimes, like buying all of us daffodils from American Cancer Society’s Daffodil Days. It’s not ALL bad, but the bad parts are so, so very bad.

              1. ThisIsNotWhoYouThinkItIs*

                Most bad bosses are not bad/horrible ALL the time (otherwise only the desperate would work for them). I would say “insidious” is exactly the right word.

                Also–is she the “kiss up, kick down” type? From your descriptions she sounds like she may be.

                Ultimately, I don’t see her changing. She may, and hopefully Samantha can help with some of the interference, but I’d be updating my resume and starting some general looking. If you know Samantha is tired, she’s probably looking, too. If she leaves you may be stuck with Abagail with no one to run interference–is she the type that might then immediately implement all those things she’s tried to that Samantha pushed back on (8-5 butts in seats, etc.)? If so, could you live with that?

                Good luck–let us know how it turns out.

              2. Sam Sepiol*

                Yeah, sounds similar to abusive partners. They do nice things to give plausible deniability about the shit. I’m glad you’ve seen through it

                1. Ms. FS*

                  Wow, this sounds just like my boss. She is absurdly sharp and gets really upset over little tiny things and then will turn around and buy us all little plants and say what a great job somebody did for something random. Before she was my boss, she once got crazy angry when my coworker said something she didn’t like in a stakeholder conference call (it wasn’t inappropriate at all what my coworker said), and she motioned at her neck in the ‘cut it’ motion, and stomped around the room like a child. It was super distracting and really hard to focus because we were also presenting at the same time. That was a bad day. But then she’s be nice and ask how you are really doing, and you feel like things are going ok again? It actually reminds me of emotional abuse a little.

        2. CupcakeCounter*

          I send all of my WFH and time off requests as a meeting invite so that my boss has it on her calendar as well

          1. workerbee2*

            That’s the process we’re going to move to. We just never needed that before because Samantha was our only boss, she was good at keeping track of her 3 reports on her end without reminders, and she has a very laissez-faire management style.

            It’s unfortunate that the need for such a process became clearly elucidated because there were consequences for Abigail not remembering, but I don’t feel that not intuiting that she would need additional reminders is my fault to the extent that she seems to believe.

        3. Kat in VA*

          The turnaround thing is ridiculous. Email sent at 9:00PM at night with a hard deadline of 8:00AM the next morning?

    3. DC*

      If you have a good relationship with Samantha, and she supports you, which it seems she does, it may be worth mentioning to her that you’re unclear how to build a consistently good relationship with Abigail, and that the changes she has been making/putting on you are making you less happy at the company and questioning things long-term. Let Samantha realize that she needs to protect her high performers so she doesn’t lose them because of a overbearing grand-boss.

      1. workerbee2*

        Unfortunately, Abigail is managing Samantha with the same iron fist that she’s using with the rest of us. Abigail has completely usurped authority for managing Samantha’s reports, leaving Samantha with essentially no power. Samantha says she’s going to start pushing back harder against Abigail because she no longer cares what Abigail thinks of her, so it’s starting to seem inevitable that Samantha will leave if things continue on the path that they’re on.

        1. workerbee2*

          Oh, and Abigail’s boss is the CEO, so none of us really have the authority to bring to her boss’s attention just how terrible of a manger she is.

          1. Jules the 3rd*

            Nah, Samantha totally has standing to take it to the CEO. Also, if there’s anyone who is HR, they are supposed to be outside of regular lines of supervision and should be a good person for Samantha to talk to.

        2. Venus*

          Well, that answers my question:
          Does Abigail treat everyone this way, or just you?

          It sounds like this is standard for Abigail, in which case I would stay for now because Samantha sounds like a supportive and effective boss (which is much more important), and I would do my best to avoid Abigail. Depending upon how things go with Samantha’s pushing back, it sounds like it might be time to see what other jobs are out there…

        4. Autumnheart*

          Is her name actually Abigail? I only ask because we had a similarly out-of-step director a few years ago that had a similar approach to existing team culture, and employees with a documented history of being high-performing. And yeah, she’s smart and knowledgeable in her field, and won some sort of recognition award on Twitter a few years ago, but she was a terrible manager. She got the boot a couple years ago during a restructuring, thankfully.

          1. Autumnheart*

            (Who was actually named Abigail, hence why I was wondering if this could genuinely be the same person! That would really be a small world.)

            1. workerbee2*

              No, it’s not, but I didn’t know that my “Abigail” had a personality twin out there. I was hoping she was one of a kind, haha.

    4. ragazza*

      Sounds like Abigail is the kind of boss who likes to keep employees off-balance. Unfortunately, she’s probably not going to change. She definitely was way out of line. If there’s an emergency and something needs to be done on a tight deadline after hours, they should be calling/texting you, not assuming you read your work email at 9 PM AT NIGHT.

      1. workerbee2*

        The task was simple, straightforward, and quick, just extremely urgent (proofreading and making copies of a PowerPoint for an early-morning meeting). She (incorrectly) assumed that I would be in and working at 7, which would ordinarily give me plenty of time to get it done.

        And just going through the process of typing this out is showing me how unreasonable she’s being to be so angry that she didn’t have copies of a PowerPoint ready. It was a presentation to her peers and boss (the CEO) so I get how she would feel pressure for everything to be perfect, but this was not exactly life or death.

        1. ragazza*

          Oh, I see. I read a ton of academic articles about communication with remote/wfh employees and it’s so important. She should be looking at this as a learning experience about the necessity of clear communication.

          1. workerbee2*

            She’s pretty well honed in on this being a communication issue, but she thinks I’m the only one with the problem.

    5. LizB*

      I just want to name that Abigail is the problem here, not you. Sending something via email at 9pm with a due date of 8am the following day is absolutely unreasonable (except for some very specific offices/fields where 24/7 email checking is required). I don’t have any actionable advice, but I don’t think you should measure your success by whether you have rapport with Abigail or whether she’s mad at you, because she’s a bad manager in some very fundamental ways and always making her happy is not a realistic goal.

      1. workerbee2*

        Thank you for this. This is pretty much the conclusion I’ve come to (with Samantha’s help, who told me to do my best to let it roll off my back, which she knows is hard for me). I was wondering if it’s just bad “fit” even if I’m not at fault, but I really don’t know who would be successful working under her.

        I’m going to do my best to follow all of her “rules,” but try to grow thicker skin around not being able to please her. It’s hard because I’ve been in this department for 8 years under 3 other managers who were all huge fans of me and my work (praise, promotions, etc.), so I’ve become accustomed to my boss being happy with me. I’m really not a chronic people-pleaser (anyone who doesn’t affect my livelihood can go ahead and hate me if they’re determined to), but not being able to intuit what Abigail wants from me has me shook. I appreciate getting an outside opinion that this path has only one frustrating outcome.

        1. LKW*

          I wonder what the CEO would think of this. I mean, were you aware that this meeting was happening and was there any communication that this was an “all hands on deck” day? Was there any request earlier to have this done?
          Is this something that could have been done in an hour? If it was five slides – maybe, but 30 slides – no.
          Why wasn’t she prepared before 9 pm? Why wasn’t she managing her time effectively.
          Why didn’t she reach out and say “Hey, I just sent you an urgent request” to confirm that you received it.

          If someone came to me and said “I sent something at 9 pm for an 8 am delivery” and they didn’t actually speak to the person to confirm it was in hand – I’d tell the Abigail in that story that she screwed up. She waited until 11 hours before the deadline. She didn’t confirm availability. She put unrealistic expectations on team members.

          1. workerbee2*

            It was a big meeting for Abigail, but the rest of the team was wholly unaffected by it. It was not an “all hands on deck” type of situation. The situation was only urgent because Abigail wasn’t prepared.

            I could have done the work quickly. If I had been there it wouldn’t have been a problem. She sent a follow up after the initial request – also via email.

            I have an update from Samantha that Abigail is sticking to her “this is a miscommunication and workerbee2 should have known better” story and is not shouldering any of the blame. Samantha has all but given up. She said that she’s just going to have to get used to the idea that Abigail is the boss and she can do what she wants and if Samantha doesn’t like it, she can leave. Time to dust off my resume unless I want to be stuck with Abigail with no one to run interference for me.

    6. sunshyne84*

      She sounds like a nightmare. You definitely need to talk to someone over her so they can let her know what the norms are. Asking the guards for your swipe records?!

      1. workerbee2*

        Her boss is the CEO and he only visits the office rarely (it’s a big deal when he’s here despite the fact that I work out our main office) so I doubt he even knows what the norms are. I’m wondering if Samantha could gain any traction by discussing it with one of Abigail’s peers.

        Samantha plans to have a “this is not how we treat our reports here” discussion with Abigail today. I expect that’ll go over like a lead balloon but I know Samantha needs to feel like she’s at least trying.

    7. Yorick*

      I think it’s totally reasonable that you didn’t see the email until 9AM and her response was inappropriate. But if I were Abigail, I would have assumed you’d see it at 7 and do the task by 8 – even if I were completely aware you would be working from home.

      1. montescristo1985*

        I think if you give someone a task due within a one-hour time frame that warrants a call. IMO, boss should have called at 7am (expected start time) to make sure OP got the email and was working on it. Lots of people limit the times they check email during the day, and anything less than 24hours notice really needs some other form of communication.

        1. Fortitude Jones*

          Yeah, at first, I was with Yorick (and still kind of am). If you’re working from home and your normal start time is 7, why didn’t you see the email before 9? Checking email is the first thing I do when I log onto my laptop (I work from home full-time now too). But you’re also correct that if this was an urgent request, Abigail should have picked up a phone the night before and called to make sure workerbee did in fact see the email.

          1. valentine*

            I would be severely annoyed if someone called to ensure I’d do my job, but I check email first thing, regardless of location.

            workerbee2, Abigail sounds like a mercurial goalpost-mover (agree with the daffodils smell like an abuser above). There are two things that may be in her favor, though: If you would have checked email at 7:00 or sometime before 8:00 in-office and that “Love it!” is more likely to be “skimmed, saw positive words, replied in kind” than “read carefully or, at the very least, approved WFH request”. In future, you can check email first, send WFH requests separately, and double-check ambiguous permission. Curious why Samantha the one to ask, and perhaps she can establish methods for communicating short deadlines and for communicating availability whilst WFH.

      2. workerbee2*

        I agree that, in hindsight, I could/should have checked my email earlier. However, being assigned work this urgent and time-sensitive is EXTREMELY aberrant for me, especially at that hour. I am almost entirely responsible for managing my own workload and receive very few “assignments.” There was no reason to believe in the moment that there was something I should have been doing other than what I was doing, which was reading research articles.

    8. Lisa Simpson*

      It sounds like the problem wasn’t you working offsite on Wednesday. Because had you gone to work on Wednesday, and assuming you ran into Abigail who verbally asked you to task, the earliest you could have heard the request would be 7am Wednesday (assuming Abigail gets to work the same time you do and asks you on the elevator).

      Abigail sent you the request at 9pm, and didn’t ask for read receipt. She didn’t follow up with you or leave you a voice mail.

      Also sending it at 9pm, she should have assumed the earliest you could see it was 7:20 (allowing you time to get logged in and read your emails), so was it a task that could be done in 40 minutes?

      I wonder why she didn’t sent the task request to multiple people – sounds like she is blaming you for something she didn’t execute well.

      1. Quinalla*

        Agreed, it isn’t an offsite issue, its the expectation that urgent things sent by email will get done. That’s not reasonable for most work cultures and sounds like it is out of the norm for yours too. This is on Abigail, she should have followed up with a text/IM/phone call to make sure you got this urgent request. What if you were just running late that day because of traffic or something? This is her screw up, not yours.

    9. Not So NewReader*

      So. many. problems here.

      This is a boss who will constantly move the target. You will never hit the target. Ever.

      “I comply with all of Abigail’s demands, but I can’t seem to build any lasting rapport with her. It’s like trying to climb a blank wall. I’ll feel like I’m making progress, then something like this happens and I’m back to square one.” This is what she wants you to think/feel. She wants you on edge permanently.

      There are some bosses out there who believe that the way to keep people in line is to keep them beaten down. Abigail must be one of these bosses. If a person is not begging daily to be able to keep their job for one more day, then the Abigails of the world are NOT happy. And the Abigails believe they have failed in some manner.

      She may be smart in her arena but she has NO people smarts. My opinion, but a person with no sense of people is a person of limited smarts, they are not very well rounded. I understand that you think she has something to offer and she probably does have something to offer. But she is never, ever in a thousand years going to give it to you or anyone else. If your reason for staying on is to learn from her, this is not a solid reason for staying there. She won’t teach you.

      She probably also believes that she has no management ability. Clock watchers typically lack some or many management skills and they use their clock watching to control others. Since she has ripped much of Samantha’s authority from Samantha, I kind of think I am on the right track in saying Abigail privately knows she can’t manage people.

      Going forward, when you will not be at work, CC Samantha with the request. Additionally, when you get an answer tell Abigail you will send her a reminder before that day. When you send that reminder email, hit the reply button on the email where she originally granted your request.

      1. workerbee2*

        It’s an interesting take that she might be feeling inadequate or ill-equipped to manage people. She came from an academic setting (she was a university professor, so I LOL’ed at the “she’s not going to teach you” comment) so I don’t think she has ever had to manage anyone that wasn’t a grad student before.

        I do what I can to empathize with her (internally, to myself) because it makes coming into work and getting through the day more tolerable. Like, I’ll tell myself, “I’m sure this situation was really stressful for her and having communication issues with me added to it.” But I also need to realize that I can’t be responsible for someone else’s feelings, especially someone who doesn’t own their feelings and goes looking for external sources of blame for them.

    10. Det. Charles Boyle*

      I think you’ll have to start looking for another job. I worked for a similar manager and the nit-pickiness about non-work-related matters was just too much. I work for a much more relaxed person now and it’s worlds better. That type of person strongly believes their way is the RIGHT WAY and cannot change. You’re just better off going somewhere else.

      1. workerbee2*

        I’d been managed almost solely by Samantha for several years, and she has a very laissez-faire management style. I’m trying to figure out if I need to adjust to Abigail’s authoritarian management style, which is so jarring after several years of “do whatever you want, just get your work done well and on time,” or if Abigail is totally unreasonable. It’s probably both, which is muddying the waters. I think I’m going to put some feelers out into my network of previous bosses and see if they know of any opportunities. It’s a huge bummer that the job I really liked turned into the job I dread coming in to when the work itself hasn’t changed.

    11. mf*

      I had a boss just like this. She was disorganized, forgetful, and had very poor time management skills. She would wait till the last minute to complete her part of the project or to communicate what she needed from me, thereby making it really difficult to do she has asked in the timeframe she needed. (Yes, I did get those emails at 9 PM asking if I could do xyz task by 8 AM the next morning–and I was an hourly employee who didn’t check email off the clock!) And when the task didn’t get done by the time she wanted it done, she would call me into her office for a scolding, as if I were the one who wasn’t living up to expectations.

      The thing I finally realized is that she was ashamed of her disorganization and poor time management. She didn’t want anyone (especially people senior to her) to see that she didn’t have it together. So she would turnaround and blame me instead of admitting her own culpability.

      Her behavior is driven by fear–fear that she’ll lose her job due to her own insecurities and incompetency. There are some things you can do to try to hold her to reasonable timeline (making sure to follow up with her so you get what you need when you need it), but ultimately, you can’t change or please a boss like this.

  13. Kalros, the mother of all thresher maws*

    Yesterday was my boss’s (who I loved) last day. He resigned, but I’m not sure it was fully his decision. He’s been checked out for a while and was remote for the past week, so I haven’t spoken to him in a while. Now that it’s official, I want to text him but have no idea what to say. Idk. TGIF.

    1. Just Elle*

      “Thanks for being a good boss, we will miss you!”

      You don’t need to write a book.

    2. competitive knives*

      When I had a colleague resign unexpectedly, I just texted them the kind of message I would have put in their leaving card, like “It was a pleasure to work with you, and I hope whatever you do next is excellent to you. I hope we can stay in touch, these are my contact details/personal email etc”.

    3. Ptarmigan*

      Definitely do text him. My former boss left in a similar way and felt very hurt when some of his former employees/coworkers didn’t reach out to him.

    4. The Man, Becky Lynch*

      When I left my last place, my reports were quick to reach out and give me their contact information. I left because the ownership was trash but our “team” was blissfully wonderful. I’m still friends with them.

      So he’s probably checked out because it’s draining and he is detaching from the organization, either on his terms or not. So it’s absolutely okay and thoughtful to reach out and say “It was great working with you. I hope we can keep in touch.” If you’re into social media, nows the time to perhaps friend request him or such. He was your boss, he may be cool to keep in touch with if he ever has a spot to fill that you’d work well in or such. Also for reference purposes, so it’s totally cool to reach out.

      Short and simple is best.

  14. MusicWithRocksInIt*

    Back to work after maternity leave. I’m not sure many people know that I’m pumping, and I work in a large open area. Should I tell people when I’m going off to pump? It feels awkward, but I also don’t want people to just think I’m disappearing all the time. Or am I not giving people enough credit?

    1. Emi.*

      I think they will figure it out at some point. You could mention that you pump if it comes up in conversation, eg as part of responding to “How is it being back to work?” or whatever, but I think getting up and saying “Bye, everyone, gonna go pump now!” would be weird.

    2. Mindy St Claire*

      Do you share calendars? As long as your calendar says you are “busy” they will assume you are just that! (and you are)

    3. AGirlHasNoScreenName*

      I’m presuming you’d be pumping at fairly regular/semi-predictable intervals? If so, there’s nothing untowards about letting key people know that, for the next few months, you’ll generally be unavailable for those times. Since I’m assuming they know why you were out, most of them should be able to put two and two together and respect that.

    4. M. Albertine*

      Are you just concerned that people would be wondering where you are? Would putting a sign at your desk like “Back at 2:30” (or whatever) work? You don’t necessarily have to tell people you are pumping, as that is your accommodation, but letting people know when they can get a hold of you should alleviate most work-related concerns anyone might have.

    5. Interplanet Janet*

      I wouldn’t make grand announcement or anything. Has the company set up a place for you to do it? If so, heading that way and doing it on the regular would clue most people in, I think.

      I like the idea of setting up a calendar appointment, too, both for indicating in a professional way when you’ll be tied up, and for keeping yourself on a regular schedule. It’s so easy to forget and you’ll have much better output if you’re regular with it!

      Congratulations on your baby and on being back to work.

    6. Ann Perkins*

      It really depends on your comfort level and the office culture. If you’re generally known as being dependable and available when needed, I don’t think people will think you’re slacking off. But if you’re comfortable with it, mentioning it to people you work with the most can help avoid that perception. I pump for #2 right now and with my first it took a while for some people to realize why my door was shut a few times per day when it used to always be open. Most people won’t figure it out on their own unless they’ve pumped or seen a partner pump, IME.

    8. PolicyWonk*

      I am currently pumping, and I actually try to say “I have to go pump.” when that’s the case. I think it normalizes it, which can help others continue to normalize things like that. (I had a colleague who, before he went on paternity leave thanked me for being so open about saying I have to do baby things). My intern boss was very clear what she was doing, and I think it just highlighted working mom=awesome. But, you have to be able to read your office. Relatedly, when a relatively senior guy wrote in an e-mail with many recipients “I will have to miss this meeting to attend a preschool ceremony” I wrote him a personal e-mail thanking him, because it’s all part of making this accepted.

    9. indigo64*

      Fellow pumping mom here! I’ve been pumping at work for almost six months. My advice is to be matter-of-fact about it. I block off time on my calendar, and while I think everyone already knows why I’m shutting my door, if anyone asks I just say “oh, I’m pumping until 10, I’ll let you know when I’m done” , in the same tone as “I’m going to lunch” – it’s only a big deal if you make it a big deal.

      Congratulations on the little one and returning to work! The first month is the hardest- after that you’ll find a good routine and feel more comfortable.

    10. Yuan Zai*

      On the one hand, it’s none of their business. I agree that if your main concern is letting people know that you’ll be gone at X time and return at Y time, you can just use your calendar or a note to let them know. One of my colleagues recently bought a small plastic sign at an office supplies store, the “will be back at” sign with an image of a clock and movable hand, because he’s a lot less consistent in his away from his desk times than the rest of us and it’s been very helpful for everyone. You can easily communicate clear time expectations without going into details.

      On the other hand, assuming you work with decent people who won’t treat you badly for being a human being who does human things, there’s no reason not to be direct about what you’re doing, if you want to. You’re not obligated to tell people anything you don’t want to, so if you don’t want to tell people, don’t, but you don’t need to be secretive about it, either. I’m actually glad that a few of my colleagues have been very direct and matter-of-fact about the time they have set aside for pumping because it helps normalize it for everyone.

    11. Overeducated*

      Just disappear. Anyone who’s confused will figure it out sooner or later, or ask you. But sometimes people are uncomfortable even hearing mentions of it (which I think is a little precious, but it happens) so I wouldn’t bring it up more than you need to.

    12. Frankie*

      I think it depends on your relationship with them. I have recurring (private) time marked off on my shared calendar–and when it comes up organically I have no trouble mentioning I’m pumping briefly–but I don’t make a big deal out of it. I want to strike a balance between neutralizing it and keeping a level of my own privacy.

      Ppl know you’re a new mom and someone would have to be pretty dense not to get it, even if you’re not doing it at regular intervals and more ad-hoc. I would try to put the optics out of your mind the way you might if you had any other medical need that interrupted your work day. Sometimes worrying about optics is enhanced by your own discomfort or guilt with taking time out of the work day. But it’s a medical need like any other.

    13. Andy*

      I pumped at work for a couple of diff kids at a couple of diff jobs over a span of ten years. The context dictated the level of comfort I had sharing, but even then I got surprised. I was at a place I had pegged for ‘unfriendly’ but then a big ol manly man manager found out i pumped at was like ‘here’s this key to the empty vp office you should use it whenevs’ and that was a REVELATION. and then i was working for a woman person who was all ‘i’m a very caring person but also ew that’s gross you’re gross don’t tell me things ew’ and THAT was a REVELATION. but a diff kind.
      so, in the end, what I learned is that pumping is a total slog, parenthood is a mixed bag regardless of pumping or anything, people will surprise you in wonderful and horrible ways, my pump said ‘george costanza’ over and over again, and also that pumping moms can change culture by being open about what’s going on. If you’re comfortable, go for it. Put something like ‘Baby Food Production Time’ on the calendar. otherwise, ‘Conference Call’ works as well.

      2. Quinalla*

        I had a similar experience with pumping at work about 4 and 8 years ago now. Some people’s reactions surprised me in a good way and some did not. I was matter of fact about it as possible, but yeah, I had to wash pump parts in our break room sink sometimes and yeah, I stored breastmilk in the shared refrigerator, though I did put all those precious bottles in a small cooler mostly for convenience but also cause I knew people might get weirded out seeing it, but everyone knew what was in it. But yeah, I had some great conversations with my (male) boss about pumps – his wife pumped for their kids in previous years and he thought my new pump was really slick and cool compared to her monster – but we are engineers, so geeking out over a pump is kind of our thing.

        So no, you don’t have to say anything a lot of the time, but when you do, just be matter of fact. And if you are ok with it, maybe say something when you maybe don’t need to so you can help normalize it. I sometimes intentionally walk to the restroom with a tampon out in plain sight because I’m tired of having to hide period stuff, its ridiculous, but most of us do this to some extent. So I’m trying to push that one a little more than I really need to because I can and I don’t care if it weirds people out, they need to get over it :)

    14. Corny Wallace*

      You shouldn’t say anything. It’s nobody’s business what you are going to do. (You may wish to put it on your calendar, or leave a note on your desk saying “back at 12”, so people know when you will return. But why you left – NOTB).

    15. June First*

      Outlook calendar, definitely. I did that for Kid B and not Kid A. I was much more assertive the second time around.
      If you want a cutesy sign, “Mom business” is a euphemism that seems to work. Otherwise, “Room in use, come back in 20 min”.

      My pump sounded like a broken TARDIS.

  15. Booksalot*

    The most logical route for my commute, the highway, has been undergoing bridge construction for over a year. My follow-up option, a rural route, was completely shut down three weeks ago to replace two tiny bridges over creeks, and won’t reopen until spring 2021. (Bridges are apparently my nemesis.)

    My remaining options are to fight my way through the highway construction, or take a meandering third route that is also rural, very hilly, and will be treacherous once the New England winter arrives. My travel time has gone from a tolerable 45 minutes to 75 minutes or more, depending on traffic. I can’t imagine how long it will take in bad weather.

    I am going nuts, guys. I spend a large portion of the day grinding my teeth into powder from the stress of commuting. I can no longer shop at the good grocery near my work, because everything perishable is ruined by the time I get home. I can no longer schedule doctor or car appointments after work, because I struggle to get there before everything closes. I’m already burning through PTO like crazy for “life stuff”.

    I’m frustrated with myself for being so easily rattled by something so innocuous—everyone deals with traffic! But I would never have taken a job this far away to begin with, so I’ve shoehorned myself into a deal breaker by accident. I like my boss, I like my work, and I don’t want to leave, but I’m not sure I can do this for a year and a half. Remote work is not allowed, and moving house is not feasible.

    Thank you for letting me complain.

    1. Eillah*

      As someone who also has a bastard of a commute, podcasts and audiobooks can help (I realize these are obvious suggestions and thus probably not super helpful…). If you like musicals maybe full cast recordings? My sympathies, I know how exhausting it can be :/

      1. valentine*

        If you haven’t already, asking for an exception to working from home during this is worth it, especially for the winter. Lay out the horrid impact. It’ll be impossible in snow because leaving early then will probably be worse. Are there closer offices you could work out of or be seconded to?

        75 minutes sounds like a short time to kill perishables. Can you order your groceries? Do you know anyone closer to work who’d let you stay with them during your work week? (I don’t suppose there’s anyone who would just up and switch homes for a bit.) Look into B&Bs (see if your employer will pay) or corporate housing as well.

    2. Ms. Meow*

      Any chance you can move your start/finish time earlier? I’ve found that if I can leave my house by 6am instead of 7am, I can shave 25% off my commute time.

      2. KR*

        This!! And construction is so much less stressful when it’s super early when there isn’t traffic imo

    3. Just Elle*

      No, this is completely logical. Dont be frustrated it rattles you because it does totally suck. I once had to give up an apartment I ADORED and pay an early exit fee because I just Could Not with the traffic (through I-95 which was under traffic). I decided it was the commute or my heart health.

      Can you explain the situation and work with your boss on temporary solutions? Maybe working 4-10 hour days? A bank of 10 or so work-from-home days when weather is particularly bad?

      If you’re up for a raise soon, you could ask for a non-traditional benefit: some additional “absent with permission” days for life stuff? Maybe they can pay for a hotel room once a week just so you save yourself a commute one day?

      Also there’s other things you can do to help, although they will cost you money. Things like using the Prime Now or similar grocery delivery service, or hiring a house cleaner, or upping your eating-out-for-lunch budget. I know they all suck to spend money on, but your sanity is worth it.

      I also second, third, and fourth podcasts/audiobooks. They really do help commute time feel more “value added”.

    4. Hope*

      Can you take a cooler with you to help keep the perishable stuff cool for long enough to get home? Maybe try scheduling appointments in the AM, so at least you skip the worst of the morning traffic when you do drive in to work?

      Hopefully the highway construction will ease with time? Sometimes it’s worse at the beginning, when not everyone who *can* take an alternate route realizes the construction is happening.

      Long commutes suck, especially when you have no control over just how long they are.

      1. Nanc*

        Second the cooler. For a few years I lived over an hour from the nearest grocery store. A good cooler will keep frozen/cold stuff fine for several hours.

        1. Qwerty*

          If you don’t have a super good cooler and need to keep thing frozen, trying nesting a cooler bag in a larger cooler. I’ve been able to transport ice cream frozen for an hour+ drive by putting the frozen item in a small cooler bag with a freezer pack, then putting that bag with another freezer pack or bag of ice in my large cooler bag. The extra insulation helps.

        2. OlympiasEpiriot*

          Third the cooler in the trunk.

          And commiserations on your commute changes. :-(

      2. Delta Delta*

        I have a YETI cooler bag that will keep stuff unbelievably cold for a long time. It was a lifesaver last summer when my fridge died (dead fridge! In July! Yay!).

        And it looks like OP lives in New England, where we only actually have summer for twelve minutes. Before she knows it, unfortunately, the universe will be our cooler again.

        1. The Phleb*

          Now now…don’t exaggerate! Summer lasts at least 13 minutes here in New England, Delta Delta!

      3. Cartographical*

        The cooler is a good idea and the mini fridge kind that you plug in to your car while driving are a godsend.

        The long commute is definitely hard on the health, especially a high-stress commute. If you can’t move your work start time, is there a partway point you can stop at? We are in an area where driving 3-5 hours for even minor things is pretty normal (anything under 2 hours is a short trip) and our two seasons are Winter and Construction. Sometimes, we leave early to avoid some of the rush and bother, then take a break at a donut shop in a one-light town for 30-60 minutes while we do emails or some work or even go for a walk, then carry on at whatever point the traffic requires. On another route, the only option is a little lay-by with a horror movie bathroom but there’s usually two of us so it’s still worth the stop.

        Good luck and, if you’re feeling it’s impacting your health, please check with your doctor re: blood pressure & DVT (a family member ended up with this from his commute!). Also, a good seat cushion/back support and making sure your seat/wheel are ideally aligned can reduce exhaustion and chronic pain conditions.

    5. RandomU...*

      I’m not a fan of long commutes, but before throwing the baby out with the bathwater so to speak I’d give yourself time to find alternate solutions or at least things to make it not as horrible.

      1- Podcasts, audiobooks or some other way to find enjoyment from the time. I like audio books over podcasts, but make it something you enjoy and don’t let yourself listen to at other times. It’s how I trick myself into looking forward to my monthly work travel that I drive for. I found a book series that I loved and would not let myself listen to it outside of those car trips.
      2- Cooler or equivalent for the grocery shopping. You can find reasonable travel plug in fridges (also coolers, but fridges stay much colder than a cooler does) on amazon for shockingly reasonable prices.
      3- Appointments, I basically have two sets of most service providers so that I have one near home but a work close equivalent. Not always feasible, but for some things it’s possible. Then you only have to worry about short distances to get to appointments.
      4- Really evaluate what a year and a half means in the big picture. Is this a job that you can find an equivalent for closer? What’s the potential for your career by staying?

      I can sympathize with you, because I got to commute through a 4 year extravaganza of a huge interstate project. Just when it finished we bought a house in a different area… a year later, guess what was announced… Yep… another long multi year hootenanny of an interstate redesign.

      I’ve been in the middle of construction hell for 8 years! (Thankfully the last one is winding down, and we’ve promised all of our friends we won’t move near them since construction follows us!)

      1. Minocho*

        I have not heard hootenanny in a while. I really wanted to thank you for that. I’m a Yankee living in Houston. I accidently spoke about the “pop machine” twice within the last week, and am getting (gently) teased about it.

        :)

    7. blink14*

      I am also in New England, and construction season is full on. One section of utilities work on a major city street I take has caused my commute to increase by a good 10 minutes every morning right now. I feel some of your pain!

      This won’t help your commute directly, but could you bring a cooler or coolers with you to put perishable grocery items in? You could potentially freeze ice packs at work if there’s a freezer, and space, but if you brought in a cooler in to your office so it at least maintained room temperature, all of those cold items packed together, would likely still stay fresh (maybe opt of out things like milk or yogurt at this store).

      Can you adjust your work times at all? If not temporarily, maybe on a day to day basis, so you could schedule a doctor’s appointment earlier in the day or first thing in the morning, and work around it. Does anyone else in your office have a similar commuting issue? Maybe banding together will help push for changes, if it’s only during the construction period.

      1. Dwight*

        Electrical pelletier coolers. They have ones that are designed to work with the 12v adapters in the cars. They won’t keep frozen stuff frozen, but they’ll keep perishable stuff cold.

    8. Coffee Owlccountant*

      Chiming in with sympathy for a bastard commute – mine is into downtown Chicago from the suburbs and it’s exhausting and stressful and I wish I had some good solutions for you! They just started highway construction over here too and I’m similarly GAHHH!

      If you have a good relationship with your boss, maybe have a frank discussion about whether there is any room at all to shift your schedule earlier or later? If it’s at all feasible, I’ve found that an earlier or later start time can really help soothe the pain.

    9. Kathleen_A*

      This will only help the minor problem of perishable produce, but…you could have a good icebox in your car. It may not help with frozen food, but it will absolutely help with things like mayonnaise and fresh meat. For tips, google “transporting fresh food for a long drive.” (It’s actually possible to safely transport frozen food, too – ice box technology has come a long way – but that’s a bit different.)

      But I do hear you. As we say around here, Indiana has two seasons: winter and road construction season. Road construction season isn’t too bad for me this year, but last year my commute changed from 45 minutes to 1-1.5 hours – and I have a boss who is herself a morning person, which wouldn’t be a problem except that she’s also deeply suspicious of anything that gets one of her reports to work late. Trying to consistently get here on time was so, so, sooooooo stressful. I had to develop a zen-like “Whatever will be, will be” attitude which is not my usual thing.

      I also listed to lots of audiobooks. This didn’t help much in the morning, with the specter of Morning Person Boss looming over me, but it did help in the evenings.

        1. Roy G. Biv*

          We have those same seasons in Michigan. Do the mosquitoes also claim 3 of the 4 seasons?

    10. Hiring Mgr*

      You’ll probably get used to it, even though it sounds frustrating. I live in one of the most densely populated cities in the US, and we currently have three major bridge closings related to subway expansion…. It’s a nightmare but now that it’s been a few months it’s become the new normal.

    12. Dust Bunny*

      Ha ha 45 in the morning and 75 in the evening is my commute even when there isn’t construction. For the past 14 years. (Large city. I don’t get paid enough to live closer.)

      I arranged to come in and leave a little early (I can’t do it really early because my job is semi-service based, but half an hour makes a big difference in traffic); carry a large cooler and good ice packs if I’m shopping, and schedule appointments for as early in the day as possible, and then make up at least some of that time at the end of the work day. So I might get in three hours late but only need two hours of PTO, for example.

      And I listen to a lot of music.

    13. Veryanon*

      You’re definitely not alone. Traffic is NOT innocuous.
      In a previous job, my office used to be located in downtown Philadelphia, which was bad enough to commute to from where I lived. Then the company moved its headquarters to New Jersey, which was even further from my home (and like you, there were a number of reasons why I couldn’t move closer). I was spending 3+ hours on the road every day. Working remotely was not an option (not because my job wouldn’t allow it, but just because the SVP was a traditional “butts in seats” type of person). I tried everything I could think of to make the commute more bearable, but ultimately had to leave that job, which I really liked, because my health just couldn’t take it anymore.

    14. canary*

      Could you arrange to work from home a few days a week until the construction is over? I have a long commute, and because there are many people who work here in the same boat (office located in a small town outside a regional city) my office has a standard work-from-home day for people who want it/whose work allows it.

    15. Corny Wallace*

      Possible New Option:
      Change your work hours. Go early enough that the highway construction is not so bad.

      1. Lisa Simpson*

        This0 Ask your boss for earlier start/end time. Even if you can only do it for 1 or 2 days a week (say come in early on Wednesdays) – you can leave early enough to make your appointments.

      2. Quinalla*

        Yes, if work from home really isn’t allowed (and I’d push back on that for winter personally – and try to get a group together for it), then see if you can come in/leave 30-60 minutes early. I try to do this and it save so much commute time!

        Construction is messing up my commute right now too (25 minutes is now 35-60 minutes!) but there are tons of alternate routes I can take, so I’ve just started using waze for all commuting to find the best route of the day. Has really helped a lot, but doesn’t sound like something that will help the OP unfortunately :(

    16. Curmudgeon in California*

      For the shopping, get a good cooler for your trunk, plus reusable ice packs. Bring it to work on shopping days. Put the ice packs in the office freezer until you leave, then use the cooler for the perishables.Try a few runs with non-perishables plus a thermometer in the cooler to gauge how much ice you’ll need.

      Background: where I live it gets over 100 F in the summer. Without a cooler my stuff would be trashed in even a short trip home. I can get away without ice packs if it’s only 15 – 20 minutes, up to a couple hours if I bring well frozen ice packs.

  16. Mindy St Claire*

    My boss is so obsessed with getting his promotion that I had to go to HR and tell them that he is creating a hostile work environment and that if he doesn’t get it, I would not feel safe coming to work. They are being supportive (as they can be) but I am still scared. For context, I work for the police as a civilian and my boss is a cop. He hasn’t been promoted from Sergeant to Lieutenant and he feels it is a huge personal injustice and that the system is stacked against him and that there is a conspiracy to keep him from the promotion and that the whole system is set up as a series of mind games meant to destroy him specifically. He has talked about it non-stop for the past 2 months and his promotional exam is today. He has derailed entire meetings with reporters and senior leadership and research partners to talk about the unfairness of the process until the other party gives up and leaves. I am just trying to keep my head down and hope it gets it so that this can all be over.

    1. Lepidoptera*

      If he’s telling the press and his bosses it’s unfair and that it’s a conspiracy, any assessor worth their salt won’t promote him.
      Imagine having a person with that reaction to a completely normal work process in a higher position of power, makes one shudder.
      I’m sorry you have to work with someone who is thrown into such a terrible state when things don’t go oh so smoothly for them. :(

      1. Alice*

        Even without the promotion, this guy is already in a position of power. A sergeant is a supervisory rank, no? And even a patrol officer is a pretty powerful position relative to a member of the community.
        Good luck Mindy — I don’t have any advice.

        1. Watry*

          First level supervisory, yes. (Also a police civilian employee.) I wouldn’t want a sgt. who reacted like this to be in my chain of command at all, even considering how little my lieutenant impacts my day-to-day.

      2. Venus*

        There’s a guy here who is apparently upset that he hasn’t been promoted, and all I can think is “You’re widely known as an asshole, and yet you wonder what is keeping you from a promotion?! I barely know you, and yet I can answer that for you!” although for obvious reasons I haven’t said a word (mostly because I avoid him because he’s an asshole, but I also wouldn’t want to be the person to explain his problem because it would focus his deep dislike of non-traditional lifestyles on me)

    4. Hallowflame*

      This kind of obsessive paranoia is disturbing from a LEO, and he’s demonstrably letting it interfere with his duties. He needs to be referred for a psych eval to determine his fitness for duty, but hopefully his performance on the promotion exam will get the right attention.

    5. Camellia*

      “…would not feel safe coming in to work?” As in, he has a weapon and he may start using it? To me this is the most alarming thing in your comment, if you do mean it literally. What will you do if he does not get this promotion? Will you quite your job? What did HR say about it?

    6. Miss Pantalones en Fuego*

      Honestly this made the hairs on the back of my neck stand up. With this kind of attitude and paranoia I really don’t think he should be in the police force at all. What did HR say?

  17. What’s with Today, today?*

    TL:DR I’m on a board of a non-profit that’s replacing an ED. The outgoing ED had an excellent reference until she began her two weeks notice. Everything since has been so far outside professional norms she’s badly damaged her reputation.

    I posted two weeks ago I’m on the board of a Chamber of Commerce. Our ED resigned for work-life balance (that’s on her, she’s a workaholic. We tried unsuccessfully to get her to pull back even offered to hire more staff to help which she declined) and a new opportunity (and it is a great one, but won’t improve her work-life balance, it’s in events)!

    She gave the standard two weeks notice.

    Since that time, she has:

    Told us the salary range we’ve chosen for the new ED we hire was a “Slap in the Face.” Her current salary is the top end of the range. (we would have to hire a rockstar to get to that number). When she was hired the organization was struggling, and we hired her under market value and then adjusted her salary by several tens of thousands after her first year. She didn’t get a raise last year b/c of some performance issues that came to light, but did get a large bonus. We are also a larger org now. We researched market value for an org like our size and know this is the right range. We also offered her a lot to stay, and offered AGAIN to hire another staffer, she declined.

    On her last day, last Friday, we gave her a nice reception. she begged to have access to the building so she could remove a few more personal items. Our board chair agreed (without telling the rest of the board). On Monday, she failed to return the key. She still hasn’t, despite numerous requests. We got the locks changed. She also has fired of furious emails about her email & social media access being removed! Like, she’s furious! She’s confronted board members, sent nasty emails, went to the Chairman’s boss at his job! It’s beyond the pale and way beyond professional norms. We are headed into decease & desist territory.

    Three years of good work 100% erased in 14 days.

    2. Officious Intermeddler*

      If she has rubbed you the wrong way, she definitely didn’t exit gracefully, but at least with respect to the salary comment, it sounds like she gave her opinion and you’re free to reject it. That alone doesn’t sound like a great reason to change one’s opinion of her. She is the one who just tested the market by looking for a new job, and she might have better insight than you think into what’s fair compensation. I think sometimes boards get hung up on what comparable organizations outside of an area pay instead of appreciating what locally-competitive roles pay, but that’s just my two cents.

      NB: “cease” and desist, unless, you know, you think she’s a dead woman.

      2. What’s with Today, today?*

        Her opinion wasn’t asked. She called me (and only me) at 9 p.m. to let me know that it was ”a slap in the face.” As for my typo, so Sorry, I am typing on my phone. I’m married to an attorney, I’m aware of the term, but appreciate your snark.

        1. Officious Intermeddler*

          The typo made my day, actually! Seriously though, that additional detail–calling only you, late at night, changes my opinion. That’s some bridge-burning behavior there. Yikes. You’re well shot of her.

            1. Kat in VA*

              Between “decease and desist” and “well shot of her”, I’m having a blast with the typos today.

              (Meaning they’re making me laugh like crazy, not in a superior “I am so much better at the Spelling And The Grammar than you” way but in the “these typos/autocorrects so beautifully complement each other than I can’t stop laughing” way.)

        2. Venus*

          There’s a *huge* difference between saying ‘slap in the face’ and doing so at 9pm on a personal call. Doing so at work is kinda ‘whatever’, but making the effort to interrupt your personal time… definitely moves it more into ‘bridge burning’ zone (it shouldn’t be the only factor, but it’s definitely negative).

    4. Myrin*

      I’m always so fascinated by this. Like, it does seem like there might have been some signs – you mention performance problems last year – but you say that in general, her work has been good and from your surprise in this comment, I also gather that she was pleasant to be around and thelike?
      I always wonder what’s up with people like that – have they always been secretly awful? Have they not always been secretly awful but suddenly something snapped? Anything else? Humans work in mysterious ways.

      1. What’s with Today, today?*

        The situation has reminded me of the person that breaks up with you, then gets mad that you’re moving on.

      2. Lily Rowan*

        I wonder if she was not-so-secretly awful to the staff, but the Board never saw it until now…

        1. What's with Today, today?*

          We’ve definitely been hearing things we were totally in the dark about.

        2. Beedzer*

          Lily Rowan – you are on the money. I was also a board member with an outgoing CEO who acted in a similar fashion. She invented tall tales about board members that were, frankly, actionable. (E.g., told people that board members charged dog-sitting services back to the non-profit.) We found out after she left that she’d been treating the staff horribly the entire time. She would deprive them of items like plastic forks in the kitchen and then say “the Board doesn’t want you to have these – they cost too much.” Staff was not allowed to eat with us – if donuts and bagels were brought in for breakfast, for example, the staff was NOT to eat. Please, OP, check in with your staff and encourage open discussion. The behavior you saw may be only the tip of the iceberg! Good luck.

          1. Not So NewReader*

            Echoing similar things as what Beedzer is saying here. BTDT.

            This outburst did not happen in a vacuum. She may have other issues, she may have at-home issues or whatever. Not an excuse, but just to say, be prepared to find out much more as you go along.

            Changing the locks was very good.

            As a board get on the same page as to what you will say to the public. Generally sticking with barebones truth is enough. “She left for greener pastures/had a better offer/etc.”

            Also be prepared for this person to ask you for a reference within the next few years. Apparently they only remember the good parts and forget the rest?

            Trust your eyes and ears. What you thought you knew and liked was just a show, it was not real.

          2. What’s with Today, today?*

            We are doing just that, and you’re so right. As an example, we throw a huge community in festival annually; it’s a huge undertaking. The staff member that heads this up has always had a committee of board and community members to help her plan and get it done . Ex-ED relayed to the board two months ago that the staff member had asked not to have a committee this year because the committee was a “headache.” We found out this week that was 100% not true. Not only did the staffer want her committee she had been told by the ED that she couldn’t have a committee.

    5. Not Gary, Gareth*

      I really just had to jump in and say I love your username. Damn the man, save Empire! :)

  18. Cover letter length*

    What are your thoughts on a 3-page resume (instead of 2-page) when you are mid-career, seeking managerial/director positions, and have a lot of relevant accomplishments and certifications to list? It would be unlikely to turn away a strong candidate because of a 3-pager, right?

    1. Catsaber*

      If your three pages contains relevant information and is communicated clearly and concisely, then that’s fine. I don’t think it’s a big deal, and I’m certainly not going to turn someone away for a longer-than-average resume, especially for a higher-level position.

      The issue is not the amount of pages, but that longer resumes tend to be full of rambling prose and useless information. Giving people a guideline helps them edit and narrow it down. If your writing is otherwise great, then three pages is not a big deal.

      1. Anonymous Educator*

        I could easily fill three pages with my work experiences, but I don’t. As time goes on, I still list some older jobs (if they’re relevant) but just knock bullet points off of them and keep all the bullet points for my more recent gigs. If the older jobs aren’t directly relevant, sometimes I’ll take those older jobs off completely.

    2. Anonymous Educator*

      I think it really depends on whom the candidate is up against. I certainly wouldn’t give someone bonus points for presenting a 3-page résumé mid-career, but it’s not disqualifying, either. If that’s one of the top three or four in terms of qualifications, I’d probably give that candidate a shot.

    3. fposte*

      Maybe, but I’d wonder about their ability to meet expectations and communicate effectively. For a start, how much space are those certifications taking up?

      FWIW, some places still prefer a one-page resume, so I wouldn’t assume this would be just a teeny little overage.

    4. Mr. Tyzik*

      I would recommend streamlining to 2 pages. When I was looking I found that I couldn’t summarize a 20 year career in one page, but more than two pages was pushing it. Go with your most recent working accomplishments and cull from there.

      Yes, someone could turn away an applicant for a 3 page resume depending on how many resumes are received.

      1. Fortitude Jones*

        +1. Three pages is too long. Pick only the most relevant accomplishments/certifications to highlight.

    5. Resume length (not cover letter length, oops!)*

      I think part of the problem is that the job descriptions nowadays list 2 pages of duties/responsibilities/requirements. I have specific accomplishments in nearly all of them, but there is no way I can fit that on only 2 pages of a resume. So how do I demonstrate my experience in the overwhelming list of job requirements if a 2-page resume only covers half of them?

      1. Lily Rowan*

        I think some of that goes without saying. Like, you don’t have to name every single thing you’ve done if your career progression is straightforward enough and the person reading your materials could guess that you know how to handle matted fur and also regular grooming because you’ve had a Llama Groomer position. (I’m looking right now at a two-page job description in my office and one of the requirements is fundraising experience. Since all of my experience is in fundraising, I don’t have to belabor that point.)

        You can also highlight some things in a cover letter if they are especially important for the job you’re applying for.

      2. Anona*

        You should address some in resume and the others in the cover letter. The cover letter is a great place to address a bunch of requirements.

    6. Glomarization, Esq.*

      I say go for it. I’m mid-career on my second career (I was a small business owner before I went to law school in my early 30s). Between academic credentials, first career, second career, and accomplishments in volunteer positions over the past 25 years, my resume works out to 3 pages.

      Make sure (as I’m sure you will) that it’s organized logically, is evenly spaced, and isn’t over-crowded. In my view, my somewhat sparse 3 pages is better than cramming everything relevant into 2 pages.

        1. Glomarization, Esq.*

          Yes, I should. Even with my first several jobs removed from my resume, I have well over 10 years’ relevant work and volunteer history when I apply for professional jobs.

          1. Analytical Tree Hugger*

            How effective has the resume been for you (i.e. application to interview ratio)?

            1. Glomarization, Esq.*

              I don’t apply to a lot of jobs because I’m mostly self-employed, but I think the ratio is successful. My egregious 3-page resume landed me a short-term consulting contract last year, and I have an interview for a similar but more permanent gig later this week.

    7. Qwerty*

      A good limit I’ve heard is a page per decade of work experience listed. (For industry jobs, it might be different for academia/research type jobs). Note this is for years in relevant jobs, not overall experience.

      To your last question, you have a bit of confirmation bias. While people don’t typically say “This candidate is great but I don’t X so I’m rejecting them”, what happens is that X obscures the candidates strength.

      You want to make efficient use of the hiring manager’s time. Do you really need all of the info in those three pages? Can you combine sections, such multiple positions in one company? Reduce the bullet points in older or less relevant jobs? Consider creating multiple versions of your resume that are more tailored to the positions you are applying to (ex: Manager-focussed resume and director-focused resume).

      I’ve received very few resumes that are 3+ pages which display a strong candidate. The few good ones are generally for someone who has been in the industry for 30+ yrs. Generally longer resumes have a lot of information that I don’t need, which has the hiring committee wondering about their general communication skills (Will their emails get to the point quickly? Will they be long winded in meetings? typically the interview confirms these concerns).

    8. JobHunter*

      As a research scientist, I have 20+ years of work experience listed on a 4- or 5-page CV (depends on the position to which I am applying). I just chose my most relevant KSA, certifications, and publications. I have seen longer CVs from people with shorter careers. I still get nibbles from industry. I think it depends on the expectations for the position.

    9. Ask a Manager* Post author

      Too long. No one will read it all. Tons of what you include will be missed. It’ll look like you can’t be concise/figure out what’s most important. Stick to two.

    10. MissDisplaced*

      I never felt the length of the resume is a reason to exclude a candidate.
      However, what you’re listing on that 3-pager better be VERY relevant to the positions you’re applying for. Because if it isn’t, then it just reads like fluff and filler.

      I’m not sure what all you’re listing, but if you have a lot of very specific certifications and/or published works and such, it might make sense to list those on LinkedIn or make a separate website and then include a link on your resume to the full curriculum vitae. I keep my portfolio and writing samples organized that way.

    11. Hiring Mgr*

      Fwiw, as someone who hires alot for my current team I couldn’t care less how many pages a resume is. I’m not hiring editors, so it’s not relevant to me if they keep their resume concise. Plus, in some countries it’s very common to have many pages, photos, family status, etc.. so not sure where you’re located.

      That said, it does seem to be important to many..so keep that in mind..

      1. Mavis*

        If I start skimming and don’t find anything relevant quickly, I don’t spend much time longer looking.

    12. Boomerang Girl*

      I moved to a 3 page resume at age 38, when I switched careers. It definitely did not hurt me, and helped because I was able to show business value created in each job. However, I would not advise going to 3 pages just to share a laundry list of responsibilities.

      1. Glomarization, Esq.*

        Much the same with me. Two pages fits most but not all situations in my view (and experience).

  19. DC Cliche*

    I was quite close with a colleague (she was a bit of a mentor and offered a glowing recommendation) at my last job. She lives about two hours away and knows I was/am interested in moving to her city. The last time we spoke, she suggested we get coffee/brunch when I’m house-hunting, and mentioned to include her husband, who is a contractor and can talk about homes that need to be rehabbed.

    Well, I’m going house-hunting next week, and her husband was recently diagnosed with an aggressive Stage iv cancer. She hasn’t mentioned it, a coworker has. I want to send a note and offer to meet up but obviously no pressure whatsoever. And would want to say something kind–it feels strange to gloss over completely. But not sure how to phrase it, especially since my information is (confirmed but) secondhand. Thoughts?

    1. fposte*

      “I’ve heard Bob’s ill; I’m sorry to hear that. I’m going to be in town next week and would love to see you, but I totally understand if that’s not going to work for you.”

    2. LadyByTheLake*

      Colleague, I am going to be in City on Date. You had previously mentioned getting together for coffee, but I recently heard that Contractor might not be well. I was sorry to hear that and wish the best for you and for him. If you are available I would love to see you, but of course I understand if you cannot make that work this time.

      Best,

    3. SuperAnon*

      I would keep it very brief: Hi, I’ll be in the area, please call if you’d like to grab coffee, no pressure, best regards.

      Really short. She didn’t tell you about the diagnosis so I wouldn’t bring it up.

    4. OtterB*

      I would send a note that you are house-hunting next week and would love to get together as you had discussed, but you’d heard her husband has significant health issues and understand if she’s not available. Then close with something like “wishing all the best for both of you.”

    5. Zephy*

      I would phrase it as “I’ll be in the area next week, just confirming that the offer to get together over coffee still stands?” and let her be the one to bring up her husband.

  20. Amber Rose*

    Do you need a particular reason to fire someone? Can you not just be like, “hey, it’s not working out, your work is not great, bye” even after X number of years?

    We finally got rid of crazy dude and now he’s challenging it and we have to prove we gave him all this stuff like employee handbooks and rules and stuff, even though he didn’t technically break any rules, he just went off his rocker and accused people of sabotaging him, plus something about Germans. He also came back and asked people for references, some of whom are afraid that if they say no he might become violent so I mean. What the heck.

    Vacation in two weeks. Just two more weeks. Two…

        1. A. Lovelace*

          Have you spoken with Labour Relations and HR? They should be your friends at times like these. It’s quite reasonable to fire someone in the government, but often managers are too lazy to document things properly and it backfires on them…
          (not saying this about you at all, just that the ‘you can’t fire anyone’ point of view is often perpetuated by people who were too lazy to do the paperwork properly)

          1. Amber Rose*

            We’re a tiny company. We have nothing of the sort. We aren’t government, but dude went to the government to complain we shouldn’t have fired him.

        2. Canadian HR Lady*

          INAL, but If you were contacted by Service Canada, it probably has to do with an EI application on his part. If he’s applied for EI through Service Canada and the Record of Employment says that he was dismissed they investigate to see if the claim should be approved.

          1. Joy*

            Yup. Try googling “Employment Insurance (EI) and fired for misconduct” and look at that page to see how they define misconduct and what it means. He won’t qualify for EI if he was fired for misconduct.

    2. Anonymous Educator*

      Legally (well, might depend on what country you’re in) you don’t need a good reason, as long as you aren’t firing them for an illegal reason (discrimination based on a protected class). That said, sometimes certain organizations have their own internal rules about what kinds of justifications and motions you have to go through to fire someone. I worked one place that clearly had to fire an employee, but it took six months, because HR insisted she be given a PIP and that her manager document everything that entire time before they could actually fire her.

    4. Undine*

      (I am not a lawyer or in HR) In the U.S., every state except Montana has at-will employment. You can fire someone for many things, including being too attractive. It gets trickier if he claims you fired him because of a protected characteristic, such as race, religion, or age.

    5. MissDisplaced*

      In the US, yes. Work is generally considered “at will” and both employer and employee can terminate the working agreement at any time, and generally for any reason (except for illegal forms of discrimination), regardless of how long they’ve worked there. Unless he had a contract, which is rarer in the US, but does happen in certain fields such as academia, government, unions, and executives such CEO, CFO, etc.

      However, if he was let go and there was no direct fireable cause, he may be (and I say should be) eligible for unemployment benefits. I don’t know why companies fight the unemployment benefits. It’s generally an easier way to “let people go” without them fighting the layoff or firing. Plus, if company is not paying a severance, it gives people a cushion.

      1. Amber Rose*

        Oooohh, maybe that’s what’s happening. I thought it was weird that the government was calling us. I didn’t think about EI.

        I feel like threatening people is just cause for firing, but whatever.

        1. Fortitude Jones*

          I feel like threatening people is just cause for firing, but whatever.

          It absolutely is at every place I’ve worked.

          1. Argye*

            I actually had to fight to fire someone who was not only threatening people, but throwing things at people. But only certain people who didn’t belong, you know, non-white males (her words, not mine). Then she showed up the day after being fired and continued work, and complained that the copies of the reference manuals for Microsoft weren’t hers, but an exact duplicate that I had replaced to mess with her head. She had to be escorted out of my lab.
            Good times. I was 25 in my first managerial job. She was an inherited lab assistant who had been there 3 years longer than I had.

    6. Moocowcat*

      Oh boy, that’s not fun.
      Generally speaking, employers probably can terminate employment without cause for any reason.*
      More specifically, contact an employment lawyer.

    7. Sabrina Spellman*

      There has to be a reason he was let go, right? Was he on a PIP? Were there disciplinary actions against him? Is there a paper trail of some kind?

      1. WellRed*

        Not necessarily, unless the company has a procedure or he works for the government. Not every company has a big formal procedure. Not being good at a job is reason to let someone go. having coworkers be afraid of someone is also good reason.

    8. Meißner Porcelain Teapot*

      Okay, having worked in Canada before, my first question would be: did he have a written contract? If so, look up the wording. There should be something in there about employee needing to conduct themselves professionally at all times and harassment and such being fireable offenses. These are the things you will want to forward to Service Canada, because he’s probably applying for EI. If you do not have such clauses in your contracts or if you don’t have contracts, then you really should have an employee handbook, if only to CYA. I know “handbook” sounds like it needs to be some all-encompassing 500-page hardcover book, but it really doesn’t need to be. It’s just an overview of the written and unwritten rules of employment and every company should have one. Also, if you have documented incidents of his behavior (and how you addressed it) forward that as well.

      Generally, I am staunchly against firing without any warning, unless in cases that put your company or its employees in immediate physical harm or legal trouble. What comes across as unprofessional conduct in one company, might have been normal (but toxic) culture in another. You never know where that employee came from, so it’s usually worth it giving at least one warning, unless you have legitimate reason to believe that your employee is going to cause physical harm to someone in your company the moment you do that (i.e. if employee constantly talks about how many guns they have at home and talks about how much they want to just light the office up on some days, that would be a good time to fire them without warning and get a restraining order). But such cases are rare and in general, I would recommend the following approach:

      1) Upon first incident, document incident in writing (“employee X said/did problematic thing Y on date AA/BB/CC, witnessed and reported by employee Z”). Talk to employee X and explain why this is not ok, pointing to the relevant section of their contract / the employee handbook.

      2) Upon second incident, document again in writing. Talk to employee X and explain in clear, but calm terms that this is their second violation and you need them to take this seriously or else you will have to fire them.

      3) Upon third incident, document in writing. If the problem is with their performance, put them on a 3-month PIP with clear goals and coaching. If they don’t meet the goals, fire them. If the problem is with conduct, fire them right away.

      That way, if employee decides to challenge their termination, you’ll have documented that you pointed out the problem and its severity and the fault lies with employee, not you.

  21. Ye old*

    What is the best way to approach a job interview when you lack a skill but really want to learn it?
    I am currently interviewing for some jobs that require project management experience – I lack it, even though a person of my age really should have in my industry (bad career planning, I know). I am eager to learn if the company is willing to let me learn though… Should I be honest about this during interviews? Or is it a bad idea to admit a lack of knowledge?

    1. ThinMint*

      I think you have to admit it. From the project managers I’ve worked with, my sense is that the skill/certification is A Thing and not one you can learn or say you have without having done some very specific training. In other cases, I think you can talk about your other experience and how it might transfer but I don’t know if that’s the case with project management.

    2. Mr. Tyzik*

      PM work is HARD. Don’t say you have the skills if you don’t have them. Admit what you don’t have. It’ll be easier than getting fired later for not having those skills.

      The PM work could be a deal breaker.

    3. M. Albertine*

      You definitely have to admit it as a weakness, and look for companies/positions that would be willing to train you. I was in a similar boat: at this stage in my accounting career, I really should have had some supervisory experience, but my career path did not wind that way. So I took a job at a start-up company, so as it grows, so does my role and is soon to include subordinates.

    4. PSB*

      I agree with what the others have said. PM work is pretty specific. I’ve managed projects in previous roles and have a PMP certification but just recently moved to a full time Project Manager role. Even if the job is like my previous ones and includes some PM work alongside non-PM duties, definitely don’t claim it if you’ve never done it. That’s doubly true if they’re looking for more formal PM experience. Most people seriously underestimate the complexity of managing projects well and think of it as just scheduling work and making sure it gets done. In reality there’s a whole different set of thought processes to project management to proactively avoid problems (hopefully).

      All that said, definitely look out for opportunities to develop those skills. People who are really good at it are all too rare.

    5. AnotherAlison*

      Agreed that you should not try to hide this lack of experience. Is there anything you’ve done that uses PM skills? I think if there is any past experience you can use to demonstrate that you have the capability to be a PM, that is helpful to bring to the discussion. There is such a wide variety of what PMs due from role to role that lack of experience would be a dealbreaker in some and not as much in others. I’ve seen PM ads for jobs that sound like our project controls staff (cost analysis, primavera scheduling), but my job is more soft skills. . .client coordination, partner coordination, team management. (Still a lot of spreadsheets, though.) Soft skills are easier to translate from non-PM experience.

    6. alphabet soup*

      Are you talking about Project Management experience (with a capital PM) or just project management experience?

      As others have stated PM work is hard and definitely requires experience. But I’ve also seen a lot of jobs use the lowercase term to just refer to a candidate’s ability to schedule things and get stuff done independently. If it’s the latter, I think admitting your inexperience but talking about transferable skills would work.

    7. IV*

      10+ year career PM here. There is definitely a big difference between pm and PM. The former is like “I handled a part of this project all by myself and managed my schedule and coordinated between groups and communicated a lot.” The latter is about accountability and responsibility for budget / scheduling and risk mitigation and is a title and a career path and a certification category. You can have elements of the former without having the title or the letters behind your name, and you can have an interest in developing those skills that may be a value add to your employer.

      Also, the former can absolutely lead to the latter if you have the interest and skillset. That’s how I developed my career from teapot documentation to senior program manager for global teapot deployment.

      But you can’t go after the role if you haven’t done it, you know? Just like I don’t go after jobs for teapot developer or marketer or quality assurance.

  22. Digital Ninja*

    This Atlantic story made me chuckle: “America’s Job Listings Have Gone Off the Deep End: What even is a data-obsessed, project-juggling digital ninja?” I will post the link in the next comment

      1. Booksalot*

        OMG my sides. “You must evince an all-consuming horniness for menial corporate tasks.”

    2. Alfonzo Mango*

      This paragraph stood out to me as most important:

      Siegel points out that the hypercharged language is also poorly suited to the digital nature of most modern job searching, where 70 percent of résumés submitted via online job listings or uploaded to job boards are going to be screened by algorithms looking for keywords. “When you say ‘coding ninja,’ you’re not going to match against ‘java developer.’ If you say ‘spreadsheet guru,’ you’re going to miss the people with ‘Excel expertise.’”

    3. Alfonzo Mango*

      I also love this line:
      “Siegel says he understands that employers are trying to stand out by being cutesy. ”

      This seems like a backspin- instead of perspective candidates demonstrating gumption, we have employers trying to gimmick their way to employees!

    4. Anonymous Educator*

      Honestly, does any candidate reading such language think “I want to apply to that job!”? I’m guessing it’s more “I need a job, so I guess I’ll apply to that, even though… what is up with the language in that job posting?”

      1. L.S. Cooper*

        That’s definitely how I feel when I apply to these. “Ugh, oh boy, this will be a nightmare, but I need to get my foot in the door in this industry, so I guess I can give it a shot…”

      2. Lana Kane*

        It’s the workplace version of Steve Buscemi on 30 Rock – “How do you do, fellow kids?”

      3. Fortitude Jones*

        Whenever I saw those kinds of ads the last time I was searching, I rolled my eyes and kept scrolling. It’s juvenile and says absolutely nothing about what the job will be like.

    5. Hallowflame*

      My policy as a job seeker is if I can’t understand what job the employer is trying to hire for from the ad and can’t glean the basic skills they’re interested in, the employer is not serious enough for me to bother with them. Caveat: I work in accounting where creativity is generally not a job requirement. This rule may not apply in creative fields.

      1. Elizabeth West*

        I feel the same way–I just want to know what I’ll be doing. I especially need to know if there is financial work so I can self-select out. They’re making it really hard for someone with a disability to either apply or not apply (maybe that’s deliberate *flames flames on the side of my face*).

      2. Fortitude Jones*

        I work in a creative position, and I still wouldn’t apply to one of those ads. They’re too try hard.

    6. Lepidoptera*

      Employers,
      Please stop trying to use ‘internet-speak’ to attract employees in the job duties sections.
      It doesn’t make us think you’re a great place to work, it makes us think you have way too much hyper energy directed at the wrong things.
      Thanks

    7. Spreadsheets and Books*

      I laughed out loud at this line: “More than ever, it seems, hiring managers are looking for extremists: You can’t just be willing to do the job. You must evince an all-consuming horniness for menial corporate tasks.”

      I’m very lucky that my field (corporate finance) still sticks largely to run of the mill, buttoned up job posts. It made my recent job search extremely easy.

    8. Zephy*

      Someone else also linked to the article further up, and the article makes a good point – this kind of BS skews the age and gender of the average applicant. Specifically, skews young and male. It’s the old boys’ club reinventing itself.

    9. Fiona*

      I LOVED this article and I hate hate hate hate all that cutesy, trying-to-be-hip job description nonsense. I despise seeing companies advertising for a “rockstar” (and why is it always one word? Isn’t “rock star” two words??).

      Also, I know people feel mixed about this, but I hate seeing a requirement for a “sense of humor.” To me, that’s always a red flag that they hired someone in the past who didn’t put up with toxicity and now they’re trying to screen for people who will “go with the flow” and laugh off stuff and not put up a fuss. There’s no reason to advertise for a sense of humor – you’ll meet someone for an interview and that will give you a sense if they’ll be a good fit, personality-wise.

      ANYWAY. End of rant.

  23. Nonnie*

    I wrote in last week’s open thread about a problem I was having with a crush on a coworker, and I have an update.

    First of all, I want to say thank you to everyone who commented, I really truly appreciate that you took time out of your day to give me advice, it means a lot. 

    As for the update – last Friday, I’m reading the comments, and am super relieved, because people are saying it’s not in my head, and they’re right, it’s not ok for him to treat me like that. Well then, internet friends. Then.

    Do you want to know what will throw cold water all over your crush on someone inappropriate? I’m talking Antarctic levels? If they tell you they love you.

    Friday afternoon, dude stops by my office to ask about a project I’m working on. I give him an update, and mention that we will all be having lunch on Monday. He asks what we will be having. I answer. He then busts out an “I love you” and I didn’t get a chance to respond to that cause my brain went “What the beeeeeeeeeeeeep” which was both a censored cuss word and the sound of my brain crashing and rebooting, because you what now?

    In no world is it even remotely ok for you, a married man, to tell me, a single female who is not related to you, that you love me, ESPECIALLY at work. I understand it was out of the fact you were excited about lunch, and I had a guy propose to me one time cause he liked the cupcakes I’d made, but that was a vastly different circumstance, and actually quite funny.

    I was mad all weekend about it, which doubly irritated me, both that it happened and that it ruined my weekend a little cause I couldn’t stop thinking about it so I was mad the whole time. Come Monday, he wasn’t at work, because his wife and kids (Three of them!) were sick. I’m not glad they were sick, but whew was I relieved for myself. 

    He was back yesterday, and I think the kids whose names I still don’t know have been wearing him out. I’ve also been super busy with the above mentioned project, so he hasn’t had time to talk to me much. 

    If something like this happens again, I am going to go plunk myself down in the HR lady’s office, and we are going to have a talk about how he makes me uncomfortable. 

    Thanks for listening to my rant, and again to everyone who sympathized with me last week. It made me feel less alone, and I can’t express what that meant to me.

    1. annakarina1*

      That is so creepy and wrong and inappropriate. This guy really needs to learn some boundaries, and I hope he doesn’t bother you further.

    2. Rusty Shackelford*

      Wait. Was “I love you” in response to lunch plans? Like, “Oh, you picked my favorite restaurant? I love you!” Not a declaration of his true romantic feelings? If that’s the case, I don’t really find this HR-worthy.

      1. fposte*

        Yeah, I’m not entirely clear on tone here. And if it’s the “We’re having lobster? I *love* you” case, I think it’s something for you, Nonnie, to address in the moment: “Bob, sometimes your remarks sound flirty, and that makes me uncomfortable. Could you dial that back?”

      2. Frank Doyle*

        Yeah, unless this was a sincere, earnest expression of love, I don’t think this is a big deal. I think it only SEEMS like a big deal because you have feelings for him, so the “importance” of every little thing he does is magnified for you.

      3. CupcakeCounter*

        Without all of the other things this guy has said and done, I’d agree with that stance. However, all the stuff Nonnie mentioned last week (like the if you and I were married examples) easily make this a lot more loaded.
        Monitoring at an arms length is a good idea simply because this particular example could be read in a variety of ways.
        Limit interactions as much as possible and respond with cool professionalism (without going into cold territory). Try to determine if things feel a little different now that the crush has cooled or if they are even more creepy now.

        1. alphabet soup*

          Agreed. I think given last week’s comment thread, this would also strike me as creepy/sad AF. Definitely trust your gut on this, Nonnie.

      4. Nonnie*

        Yeah, it was mostly in response to the food, it was just super jarring to hear, especially coming from him given what else has gone on.

      5. Anne (with an “e”)*

        I completely agree. What was his tone? What *exactly* was the context? It sounds to me like he was joking around. “Oh, we are going to eat caviar and filet mignon at Chez Pierre. I’m so psyched! I love you.” That isn’t a declaration of love. Nor is it a betrayal of his wife and kids. It’s a turn of phrase that means, “I really like what you did there. Good job!”

        Obviously, I wasn’t there, so I could be reading this wrong. But, — the way this reads — it sounds like no big deal. I reiterate— I don’t believe it was a declaration of love. I do think he’s flirting with you though.

        My advice— talk to the guy before you go to HR. Call out his behavior in the moment. Tell him you think it’s inappropriate and that it’s making you uncomfortable. I bet it will stop.

        Please keep us updated and best wishes.

    3. Dust Bunny*

      Side note: I keep thinking you might be one of my close friends, incognito, because y’all both have an awesome comic writing style.

      1. Nonnie*

        Thanks! I don’t know if I know you, since I’m, you know, anon, but we can be internet friends either way!

    4. Mr. Shark*

      It’s obviously inappropriate, and since you didn’t have a real chance to react when he said it, you should make it very clear that it is inappropriate and not reciprocated in any way. Give him a chance to dial it all back and get back in the professional-only mode.

      If he doesn’t do that, definitely go to HR.

    5. Lora*

      …whaaa?

      Like, “hey, did you remember to put the financial table in the presentation on slide 4 instead of slide 6? Thanks, love you!”? Or what?

      Have known people who accidentally say “okay, love you, bye” during work calls, but it was sort of autopilot. You know, you talk on the phone to your partner and end every call with “love you” and one day you’re only on your first cup of coffee and someone calls you and asks for the TPS report and you say, “sure thing, I’ll send it right out, thanks, love you.” Then you hang up and realize what you just said and try not to actually die of shame, and debate for multiple awkward hours whether you should call them back and apologize or just pretend it never happened.

      Or was it a serious, “the way you worded that marketing projection…darling….it was like rose petals caressed my eyeballs while Larry Page whispered NPVs in my ears…I love you, alive girl.”

      1. Nonnie*

        Lol. I did have an IT guy tell me he loved me by accident one day. He didn’t hang up immediately, and I swear I could HEAR him dying over the phone.

        It was in response to the food, but there was a weird pause, like, “Oh I’m excited, that will be good. … I love you.” Not entirely sure what happened after that, my brain had shorted out.

        1. Not So NewReader*

          The IT guy is a good example for comparison. Differences in people, differences in situations. In the IT example, you can see yourself that he slipped up, it was a genuine mistake.
          In the current example, you are seeing red, flashing lights.

          It’s good to use comparisons like this to help measure how much is awry and figure out how much we want to do to address the matter.
          I think you are on the right track here to demand an end to this behavior.

    6. Kat in VA*

      Oof. In light of your last post, no, not really appropriate.

      Then again, I have a director who has a habit of saying “And THIS is why I heart you” but he means it in a “You’re really great” kind of way, not that he’s actually in love with me. (There is zero flirtation or attraction between us – we get on like a house on fire but in a friendly, ribbing, our-senses-of-humor-are-aligned-in-a-terrible-way manner.)

      Context is everything, and the context on this one is kind of…murky.

  24. Non-profit board question*

    I would like to volunteer on the Board of a non-profit as a way to gain more experience in my field of choice, give back to my community, and boost my resume. What are your tips for A) finding a board to join; and B) making the most of the experience?

    1. Sloan Kittering*

      A lot of nonprofits have specific giving suggestions – Boards are typically the source of much major donor cultivation – so this is a good place to start. Does the nonprofit have a “give or get” amount for their board members / how much are you comfortable donating. If you are not looking to donate or fundraise, you will want to focus on smaller boards that need board members to fill other roles in the org. Just my two cents.

      1. Venus*

        That is extremely interesting to know! I have thought about being a board member for a couple charities where I have volunteered for years, but I have absolutely no interest in fundraising.

        Do you mind sharing: What other roles do board members fill? Are there any skills which would be helpful, or does it depend upon the charity? I could ask them directly, so I’m not expecting an answer if it’s complicated.

        1. Mimmy*

          That’s my situation as well, but I have a feeling that many non profits do at least encourage their board members to do some level of fundraising.

        2. paperpusher*

          I was on a board of a very small advocacy group in a very small city. Basically, I showed up to a meeting because I knew people and had already been involved with the organization, and someone decided that since I was a woman with a professional job I’d make a great secretary. I loved it and all the only requirement was being a good writer. Fundraising wasn’t a requirement at all, beyond helping out at the casual fundraising events. But this wasn’t really wasn’t a typical board of directors experience and it was very low-key in terms of expectations compared to other orgs.

          My impression is that if you have accounting experience, there are lots of boards looking for treasurers. Finding someone with the knowledge, interest and free time is pretty hard.

        3. Two Dog Night*

          It depends on the organization. IMO, smaller non-profits are more likely to have boards that dive in and do things; the boards at larger organizations are more likely to concentrate on strategy and the big picture… but I’m sure there are exceptions to that all over the place.

          If you’re on a board, you’re generally going to be expected to donate to the organization and be willing to reach out to your contacts and ask for things. If you’re brought on for a specific purpose–e.g. you have an accounting background, and they need a treasurer–you can probably avoid a lot of the fundraising, but in general, fundraising is part of a board member’s obligation.

          I’d suggest looking at small local charities–see if you have any connections with current board members, and see if you can meet and pick their brains. If you don’t have a connection, volunteer there as a way to meet people.

        4. hermit crab*

          I’m on the board of a local advocacy organization. Our board includes: the president, the VP, the secretary, the treasurer, someone in charge of membership, and several someones in charge of particular advocacy issue areas (committee chairs, essentially). It’s 100% made up of members who have demonstrated a certain level of commitment/active engagement/volunteerism with the organization. That said, most of our income is from membership dues and grants, so we don’t have a big focus on fundraising overall.

        5. Venus*

          These have all been quite useful, thank you! I might at some point volunteer for a board, and will put my name forward with an honest assessment of my capabilities (I hate fundraising, but can help out in a lot of other ways). If I’m honest from the start, then it should work out well :)

        6. Argye*

          The phrase is “Give, Get, or Get Out.” Give money, get money (fundraising), or get off the Board. There is sometimes some leeway if you have professional interest in the work of the NP, but that is unusual in my experience.

    2. Lena Clare*

      Find a NP whose values/ vision/ mission you agree with and can get on board with supporting, then find out what criteria they have for their Board members before you apply.

    3. Tina Belcher's Less Cool Sister*

      In my experience, boards are usually filled by active volunteers/donors, so you should probably find one or two organizations you really want to get involved with, and start volunteering. It would be unusual (though not impossible by any means) to apply for a board position without ever having been involved with the organization before.

    4. Lily Rowan*

      United Way organizations do matchmaking between orgs and potential board members, I think — you could look at the United Way in your area.

    5. Glomarization, Esq.*

      Your city may have an office or a city-affiliated agency that connects businesspeople with board of directors opportunities. The org that comes to my mind is the Arts and Business Council of Philadelphia and their “Business on Board” program.

      If you don’t have that kind of city-nonprofit partnership where you are, maybe check the website BoardSource (dot org), which lists opportunities by region.

      There’s also good, old-fashioned networking. Ask your business colleagues where they or their spouses volunteer, which orgs they donate to, or which orgs they actually know are looking for board members.

      Then, as others have noted, it’s almost universally a requirement, especially for smaller nonprofits, that board members must raise money for the org. (The only board member exceptions might be the lawyer or accountant who is providing in-kind services.) If fundraising is not your gig, TBH it’s a lot nicer to volunteer for the org’s program rather than seek a seat on the board.

      Source: nonprofit law is about 25% of my bread and butter and I’ve served on boards for years.

    6. Seven hobbits are highly effective, people*

      Every Board is different in terms of how they are filled. For example, I’m on a non-profit Board that fills all voting BoD positions with people elected by the membership at our AGM. There are plenty of non-voting volunteer roles that report to the Board, and we’re certainly able to find tasks that a volunteer could do that would help the Board, but the Board itself is not something that a person could just volunteer to join.

      From the comments here, I gather that other orgs have other ways their Board is filled, but for us it would seem like a deeply weird thing to volunteer to join and be a sign that you didn’t really know much about our org and how we run things (which is a red flag if you’re asking to be put in charge of something for us, since we want people to have some experience with how we run things before giving them a position with the authority to go all bull-in-china-shop and create headaches for us later – we are certainly happy to teach people how we do things, but that would involve taking lower-level volunteer positions with a clear supervisor to help train you in org norms before giving you a role with a large amount of decision-making authority).

      1. Seven hobbits are highly effective, people*

        Since it’s come up elsewhere in the thread, I’ll note that direct fundraising is not an expectation for our board members, but many hours of volunteer work for the org is. Our org gets most of its money at specific fundraising events the org puts on rather than through soliciting donations more generally, so board members often have a major role in one or more of those events.

    7. June First*

      I have worked with nonprofits with vastly different expectations of board members. I also serve on boards for service organizations. For me, it’s finding out about the time expectations ahead of time. How many meetings per month, when do they meet? Am I going to be expected to fundraise for a different event every month? Is the board position more budget-focused? How long are the terms?
      As far as making the most of it, talk with the director and other staff about how they can best use your expertise. They might be noncommittal, but don’t be afraid to suggest ideas within reason. Do you really like to build raffle baskets? Or listen to a podcast while stuffing envelopes? Or something more specific to the org?

    8. Not So NewReader*

      Rural areas are sometimes just happy to have a warm body.
      More populated areas can be competitive.

      Generally, it’s a good idea to have some type of knowledge or skill a board may be interested in.

      I am on a NPO board in a rural area. I got here because a board member knew me and asked me if I was interested. I had met the board member in another group where I was able to make some contributions that were noticeable. If you cannot think of any other practical way to get closer to the board, start volunteering for the NPO now. This will give you a chance to hear scuttlebutt and if you hear there is an opening on the board you can ask, “How does one throw their hat in the ring for that opening?”

      Not to scare you but the work can be a full time job. There is so much to read and so much to do just as a board member. (thanks, government regs) In an added layer, we are small. Therefore, when something goes wrong board members jump in with sleeves rolled up and work boots on. Literally.
      Assume they do not have time to train you and diligently read everything you are given to read.
      Allow about a year to get into the swing of things.
      Remember they are tired of doing the easy, mind-dulling tasks that come up. Volunteer when they ask for a board member to volunteer for something. This gives you experience and it also gets you their appreciation.

      Don’t ever let on that you are trying to boost your resume. Your resume will get a boost on its own. If you take your time and be tactful you may even get some help from board members, but this is a slow road, not an expressway.
      Your better bet is to make your focus that you want to give back to your community and you want to learn more about your field of choice.

    9. Julia*

      I got my first board position in my mid 20s. I found the listing on volunteer.org. It was a super small non profit, so they were willing to have someone who didn’t have board experience. I met with the Executive Director and treated it like an interview where I got to learn as much about the company as possible to see if it’d be a good fit for me. I served for 3 years and was the treasurer. It was a great learning experience!

  25. Boba tea*

    How do you express gratitude or appreciate employees in federal/state agency where there isnt budget and monetary rewards have restrictions yet they are sought after? A sticky note with thank you can only last so long. From my research, lots of articles ask for days off, all paid vacation, treats etc which are very limited in public sector works cause of rules and budgets and strict work schedule

    1. fposte*

      Is this “Thank you, I appreciate your work and you’re a great team member” or is this “Thank you, I know you’re paid crap and are trying to leave and I can’t get you a raise and would like to find something that will make you stay”?

      I think you’re out of luck on the latter–there’s nothing you personally can do to fix that. If it’s the former, I don’t think you need to work yourself into a lather about it. People don’t generally work for the government without understanding the limitations. Bring in the occasional box of donuts, give them regular feedback that includes recognition and discussion of growth opportunities, rep them to your bosses when they’ve been excellent and thank them publicly when the occasion provides.

    2. Hapless Bureaucrat*

      It depends a lot on the latitude your position descriptions and contracts give you. If you’re trying to reward consistent excellent work in a way that you’d otherwise give someone a raise, look at what kind of flexibility or responsibility your employees values. If you have the discretion to let employees flex time or work from home, that’s an option. Getting time to work on a pet project that’s not the highest departmental priority can be great. Are there opportunities to be sponsored into leadership programs or other professional development?
      In positions where work schedules and job tasks are very narrow, of course, a lot of these won’t apply.

      In terms of one-time kinds of rewards, team lunches after a busy period can be good (if your own budget allows you to pay for employees, even better), as can recognition of the project at all-hands or other large meetings, in newsletters, wherever your unit/section/division/etc communicates with itself. (If it doesn’t, what a great opportunity to start something.)

    3. The Grammarian*

      I think writing a card or an email expressing gratitude and appreciation goes pretty far, and it’s free (and it could also be used later as supporting evidence in favor of a raise, when there’s budget for it). Team lunch after a team success, if there’s budget for the lunch, is also nice. I prefer the emails/cards. I reread them when times are tough at work.

      1. lawschoolmorelikeblawschool*

        This just reminded that one time after a particularly grueling and tedious task our head big boss wrote individual note cards to the team members and left them on our desks. It was really quite nice.

    4. CheeryO*

      I mean, you don’t, really. And that’s okay. I like my state government job because it’s stable, pays fairly well, and has great benefits and work/life balance. I don’t expect my boss to express appreciation beyond giving positive feedback when it’s warranted. We have donuts at staff meetings sometimes. We do lunches occasionally (maybe once per year), but they’re not really a treat since you have to worry about rushing back or charging time.

    5. lawschoolmorelikeblawschool*

      It’s not as good as tangible perks, but I’m one of those employees and a verbal “thank you” or other words of appreciation sure are nice.

    6. Middle Manager*

      In my state government role, I try to support my employees with professional development opportunities as much as possible- trainings, conferences, etc, that are free or we are allowed to cover the cost. I also take my (small) team out to lunch and pay a few times a year. I do small gifts for my team at the holidays and occasional other treats, like pastry in the morning. But anything other than approved conferences/trainings comes out of my own pocket, which not every supervisor can do. Definitely more limited than the private sector.

    7. Robyn*

      While I’d love a raise or more vacation days, I know that’s not happening in public service, and I knew that coming in.

      My state government job does fairly regular (like twice per year) potluck-style employee appreciation events where management pays out of their pockets for the lunch entree and then all the represented employees contribute sides/desserts/drinks (it’s not monitored if you contributed or not). It’s usually an hour or two of time set aside to be social with one another, for our leadership to thank us for our hard work, and sometimes with outdoor games or trivia (totally optional of course). Our managers also allow us to code our time in attendance at the potluck as work time, since it’s a work event. It’s definitely a recognition of our whole team’s work rather than recognition of individuals, but most of us still enjoy the break from our day-to-day work and the relaxed atmosphere of a team lunch.

      1. Bubbles McPherson*

        That sounds like my old state government agency employer, though I have a much different take on it. It was an extremely forced social occasion with contrived games, fake camaraderie, and stupid tchotchke which we were supposed to gush over with gratitude.

        It was a huge waste of an entire afternoon overplanned by an incompetent HR director and an agency staff committee who spent half the year excited out of their gourds working on this thing and obsessing over the details instead of doing their actual jobs.

    8. Anono-me*

      Can you put the person or team in for some sort of award or certificate of appreciation? (I’m thinking not just a piece of paper but something they can put on a resume or promotion application.)

  26. Myamme*

    I have an employee who consistently does poor work and has behavioral/interpersonal issues with coworkers. Admittedly, I ignored a lot of issues I should have addressed a long time ago. About 1.5 yrs ago, I did start addressing them. Unfortunately, shortly after this started happening, the employee’s personal life has been put through the ringer. Tragedy after tragedy. To be clear, the employee’s personal life was/is not the reason for their poor performance at work. The issues existed previous to that. But the optics of starting to address issues at the same time that the employee is going through so many terrible things has not been great. The employee is set to receive a formal write-up (mandatory per some HR rules in our state) in the next few weeks. Tuesday this employee found out he has cancer. So it feels really terrible that the write-up is about to happen. I think I don’t want it to happen. But I also am tired of the issues I have seen not get any better. Is this a case where if the issues are really issues, they will continue to present themselves at a later time and we should try to not do the write-up if we can right? Am I too close to this to see that this isn’t complicated and the issues are separate?

    1. Sloan Kittering*

      This is cruel but … are you 100% sure that the issues are legitimate? We had an employee whose life suddenly became a parade of drama right around the time they were written up for a PIP and it turned out the drama was not true. I hate to even suggest it though.

      1. Myamme*

        I’ve absolutely had that thought about some of the lower end stuff. But the major stuff has checked out. Does this employee exploit these for attention? Yes. But they are real.

    2. Award winning llama wrangler*

      I had a similar situation with a team member who was struggling at work and at home, although I think not to the degree that your employee is. I used “I understand that things are difficult and I’m sorry you’re going through this, but it’s critical for our team to have someone in this position who can handle all the day to day tasks every day and without errors. Do you think you can do that or should we start talking about the next steps?” It’s tough, but do you still want to be dealing with the same issues a year from now?

      1. Not Me*

        I agree with this. Also, if FMLA is an option for your company and the drama he’s dealing with you can remind him that is an option if he’s not capable of being at work and performing his job.

        1. Myamme*

          This employee has used FMLA 3 times in the last 2 years. It will likely be used again if it hasn’t been exhausted for the latest 12 month period.

          1. FMLA Wrangler*

            As an experienced FMLA administrator, my antennae is going up on this. The employee has indicated a condition which triggers the need for an FMLA response if he asks for so much as a half hour off to deal with it. Is your FMLA process up to speed and run by a trained and experienced person with quick access to legal staff? With a poor performance record and prior FML use, his is the kind of situation that can easily become a court case if not handled very carefully. If your company does not have experienced FMLA administration, it may be worthwhile to engage and employment lawyer with FMLA experience to advise every step of the way. If your prior FMLA administration has been casual or informal, legal advice is essential here.

            Be absolutely certain that he is given a Notice of Eligibility within 5 business days of the first time off request/call in. This notice will tell him if he is eligible and has any available time. If not done correctly and on time, it could lead to FMLA approval by default.

            I handled a couple of cases like this. In one, the poorly-preforming employee had been using days here and then throughout the “rolling 12 month” calculation period for available leave. She finally exhausted her 12 weeks but there was only a 6 day period before she would start earning leave back day by day. I advised our in-house lawyer who got a quick turnaround on terminating the employee. In another, the problem employee already had an FMLA case running for one reason but effectively gave notice of different reason to his manager who failed to report it for FMLA (despite the annual trainings I gave to managers). When the manager terminated him for missing work, the employee was able to bring suit in Federal court that he was wrongly terminated when he should have been on FMLA. The company settled with the guy eventually and the manager was not “kindly looked upon” thereafter.

            It pays to carefully handle FMLA when the employee is a poor performer.

      2. Myamme*

        You are right. I really don’t want to be dealing with these in a year. What hangs me up is that since I dragged my feet on dealing with these issues, from the employee’s perspective, why couldn’t I wait another year.

        But reading the comments so far has been so helpful. Thank you. The formal write-up will proceed and we will handle the rest with all the compassion we have.

        1. Not Me*

          Well, you can’t wait another year because you’ve already been dealing with it for a year. That’s a reasonable response if he asks.

          1. valentine*

            Because you’ve learned your lesson and the hits will just keep on coming. He’s a chaos magnet and, while that could change, his poor performance won’t. You took the compassionate road and are now paying for it. The second-best time to stop this is now. And think of it this way: Perhaps there is a job or a way of life that he’s missing out on right now and losing this job will lead him to that better path.

            Before you replace him, write out the signs you missed, the flags you ignored or delayed reacting to, and consider whether telling everyone and milking your myriad tragedies is also a performance issue, so you can cut it short if someone else tries it.

            1. Not Me*

              I assume that wasn’t actually meant as a response to me? I’m saying Myamme can’t wait to handle this because they’ve already waited too long.

        2. ..Kat..*

          If you don’t do a formal write up, you are continuing to punish everyone who has to work with this employee.

          Just be firm and objective when you do the write up.

    3. Anon for this, colleagues read here*

      Not the same, but maybe helpful to you:

      Some years ago my son was diagnosed with cancer. It has taken many years to get it under control. I was a high performer til then, but after that my performance steadily got worse (partly from needing to leave the office a lot for scheduled and unscheduled medical stuff, but also because, my kid had cancer). I was terrible at my job, I knew I was terrible at my job and I didn’t really care, my boss knew I was terrible at my job. I got better at my job after a year or so, and I’m grateful that my boss and my coworkers helped my through, but I would not have been surprised or upset if I had been fired. *I* would have fired me.

      If he’d been a stellar employee all along and then now tanked, I’d say, see if you can arrange things to make it better for him. But he’s been a poor employee all along, you started the process of moving him out, I’d advise: continue the process. I imagine his poor performance means others have had to take up the slack? or his coworkers look bad because they can’t make up for his poor work? or some other work-related cost, right? Solve the problem…

    4. Wishing You Well*

      If the write-up is mandatory per your HR rules, do the formal write-up. There might be other ways you can cut him a break employment-wise. Can he go on medical leave or temporary disability? You’ll need a lot of HR guidance on this one. Good luck.

    5. Cows go moo*

      They key is to see this as something you are doing for his benefit; rather than a punishment you’re inflicting on him. You are essentially going through the process of communicating your expectations clearly to bring his performance up to the required standard so he can keep his job.

      It would actually be unfair and cruel to ignore his poor performance, pretend he’s doing a good job, then surprise him with a firing.

      Obviously communicate in a respectful way – as you would of anyone going through a PIP, regardless of their personal circumstances. And if he’s got cancer you need to consider which part of your expectations you can adjust, if any (for example, is it reasonable to give him additional time for a deadline if he’s going through treatment?)

  27. BeanCat*

    I’ve been going through a lot of stress feeling like I have to “figure out what I want to do with my life” lately since I’m not sure I want to be a receptionist forever. But I’m not sure what to consider moving into! Thankfully my therapist this week asked if I actually have to make a decision, pointing out that I’ve already moved this year and am getting married early next year, and that maybe this isn’t the right time to consider a big change. So I think he’s right!

    I’m also trying to reframe in my head when people are unintentionally/mildly rude – asking how I am before immediately launching into their request (not caring about the answer), or giving me a task with only a single word (“scan?”). Any advice for reframing that to help ease the mild frustration? :) Thank you all in advance!

    1. Lena Clare*

      I think people who say “how are you?” before launching into their request are just doing it as a conversational thing, sort of like saying “hi” or “hey” or “by the way”… and then “can you please..?” almost immediately afterwards.

      I don’t think they’re expecting an answer from you either, at least not a truthful one. Here you’d just say “fine, how can I help?” in a cheerful tone of voice.

      Maybe reframe it as them not really asking you how you are, then it won’t feel so rude when they don’t listen to the response?

      1. BeanCat*

        That makes sense! There’s not even a pause where I can say that, but that’ll be how I mentally reply. I definitely wouldn’t get into a real answer even if they were asking, but that will help to remember. Thank you!

    2. Lena Clare*

      For the ones who only use one word as a question, ugh are they do busy they can’t speak in full sentences?!
      I get that that’s frustrating and irritating.
      I’d just clarify in order to force them to speak in full sentences. E.g. “when you say ‘scan?’ do you mean you want me to scan it or that it has already been scanned? Or do you mean something else entirely? (Because I don’t understand when you just say one word!)”

      1. fposte*

        I get the frustration, but doing this just to manipulate them into asking the way you want is likelier to hurt than help the overall relationship. Either be honest with them and politely ask for a less peremptory request or decide to roll with it.

        BTW, Bean, are these single-word requests face to face, or are they emailed/sticky note communications? Because I would be a little taken aback at somebody who held a book out to me and just said “Scan?” but if it were a sticky note that would seem pretty SOP.

        1. BeanCat*

          Hi fposte – yeah, these are in person. Sometimes it’s a drop off as they’re coming by, but sometimes it’s as they’re handing me the document and waiting for me to scan it. I understand it more for the quick drop off for sure!

          1. fposte*

            Yeah, that’s just weird. Maybe just reframe it as them being a big ol’ post-it?

            I’m with Lena Clare on the “How are you?” thing–I think that’s not a question but a greeting for a lot of people.

            1. BeanCat*

              Hee, the mental image there is one I’ll remember. :)

              I definitely think I took it a bit too personally – thanks for helping me reframe! Thinking of it as more of a greeting than a question will help, I suspect.

              Thank you both for your time and your help!

        2. Red Reader the Adulting Fairy*

          “Scan?”
          “No, book.”

          I used to have a coworker who would send me a file (they created data files, I ran them through Word/Excel macros to produce the formatted output) with the email text of, quote, “drft plz thx” :P There were a couple of occasions where I replied with her formatted draft and the text “Can I buy a vowel next time?”

    3. Jellyfish*

      I’m not sure that I have great advice, but I have been there! One of my frustration in being a receptionist was the constant directives like “scan.” I agree that people weren’t trying to be rude, but it can be wearing to feel treated like a machine all day instead of a person.

      In trying to figure out what to do with myself (while also planning a wedding the first time around), I took two approaches, and one worked better than the other.
      The first time, I figured education was a good way to switch fields. I found a degree program that looked really interesting and had a clearer path into specific jobs. Unfortunately, I never managed to fully jump on that path. I don’t know that I’d call it a wasted degree, but I could have done lots of other things with that money…

      A few years later, I had quite solidified the idea of “I CANNOT do this job for the rest of my life!” and knew I needed to pursue a change more effectively. I job hunted for awhile without actually applying to much. I read lots of job descriptions in areas that I was totally unqualified for. Eventually, I started to see a pattern where I was drawn to jobs in a specific field that I’d never considered before. This field required more education, so I had to go back to school again.

      However, I was a lot more deliberate about getting involved in that field outside of grad school. I took a pay cut to get an entry level job there (which I know isn’t possible for everyone), did some outside activities to boost my resume, and got involved with some professional organizations. It worked! And the receptionist bit wasn’t a bad thing to have on my resume either. It provided plenty of interview anecdotes for me and really did improve my customer service skills in a way that I could channel into my current field.

    4. Not So NewReader*

      It’s a bad mix. On one hand you are trying to figure out the purpose of your life. And on the other hand you are dealing with people who think a monosyllabic word is a full sentence. s/Nothing says “we value you” like talking in one word sentences. /s “I am not a vending machine that dispenses copies/scans/whatever to the world. I am person. Try to remember.”

      Try not to let their treatment of you make you feel pushed harder to move on in life. You ARE moving on in life but just not with your career at the moment. If you cannot get yourself turned around here you may want to consider making a lateral move to a similar job somewhere else. This would get you out of the rut for the moment.
      OTH, maybe you could benefit from some extra rest. Sometimes irritation over small things can indicate not enough rest. Not all the time and not everyone, of course.

      1. BeanCat*

        I think not being well rested is definitely part of it! I’m anxious and tired but I can’t sleep well and it leaves me exhausted and sometimes grouchy (to myself). I’ll just keep trying to get better sleep and keep trying to reframe it. Thank you :)

    5. Lilysparrow*

      Everybody’s different, but I personally would reframe this by considering that if everyone else at work were to emotionally invest in me to the degree you would prefer, then I would be obligated to invest in them to the same degree.

      And I don’t have the time, desire or the emotional energy to care about how every single person who comes to my desk is doing. Or to have a full conversation about every rote task that needs doing.

      So I’d rather not incur the obligation.

      Their minimalist approach means they are imposing social/emotional demands on you as little as possible. So you can do your work without doing emotional labor for them alongside it.

      You may not enjoy that, but some people would. But reframing it as “they read me wrong” feels better than “they are rude and dismissive.”

      1. BeanCat*

        Ooooh I hadn’t considered it that way before but it’s a good point. I definitely tend to care a lot (maybe too much), so I think that will be helpful to keep in mind. Thank you for sharing this way of looking at it :)

  28. Anon4This*

    I need some advice on a job requirement/expectation that keeps coming up; both from my director at my current job and in at least 2 interviews I’ve gone on for new positions. (I am a mid-level senior manager in case that’s relevant for determining expectations.)

    I am consistently being told that in my position I am expected to “move the role/team/department forward”. I have yet to find an explanation on what exactly that means. I’m unclear on what that looks like in practice…is it identifying areas to expand the work being competed and finding new ways for it to be used? Something else entirely?

    What are some good examples of moving your work forward in a practice?

    1. Just Elle*

      I think this comes from the Lean/ Continuous Improvement language. In fact, OldJob’s motto was literally “We are never satisfied with our results.”

      One of the main functions of a higher level manager is to be focused on the strategic rather than only tactical aspects of a company. Basically, how do we become better than we were yesterday? There can be lots of areas where you can make improvements: morale / employee engagement, profitability, productivity, quality. I think its about finding the area you’re most passionate about, and spending time benchmarking or coming up with your own ideas to ‘move the team’ in a positive direction.

      Some examples: Creation of skip-level meetings where everyone can ask directors questions. Implementation of a mentoring program. A ‘shark tank’ where employees get to pitch new ideas to people who can make them happen. Lunch-and-learns. Free leadership training (a consultant came in at 5pm twice a week for a month). Creating a new metric that helped us monitor the health of our business and better react. A time you identified a high performer and helped accelerate her career.

    2. RandomU...*

      It could mean a few things. I’ll try to give some examples from my own teams/history.

      I started managing one group and found their work (somewhat transactional based) was being initiated by paper orders and sort of (not very well) tracked in a spreadsheet. We changed that into an online request and workflow managed system that could be used for metrics, to balance work levels, and was compatible and even ahead of changing work practices in other areas. Now about 5 years later this work management system is able to be almost seamlessly integrated into a huge new portal initiative for my company.

      I have another team that manages a process that I describe as being in it’s toddler years instead of it’s infancy. My interpretation of forward moving will be to mature and refine this process.

      In other words, there’s not a step by step guide. But some of the things you should be looking at is where is your company/org heading? New products or services… how would you support future things. What are some of the initiatives in your company? Standardization, consolidation, specialization, how does your team fit within those larger goals (you don’t want to be the team that works off of paper when the rest of the company has efficient tools, right? Or you don’t want to have the team that everyone grumbles about being stuck in their ways)

      As a mid level senior manager, it’s less about moving your work forward, and more about your teams and how they are advancing, what tools are they using, what they are accomplishing. In other words, your team members should be focused on doing the job they have well and your focus should be on leading your teams to the next steps.

      Hope that helps.

    3. Not So NewReader*

      They don’t know what that means either. Try not to sweat it too much.

      The first thing you do is check to see if your people have what they need to do the job. Take nothing for granted. You will probably find they do not have what they need to do the job as it stands now. People will tell a new leader things that they would never tell the old leader. “Do we have to supply our own TP?” Try not to be shocked.

      Next ask your people where the bottlenecks are and why. You might see some of the bottlenecks yourself or not. You might figure out the reason why on your own, or you could come to the wrong conclusion. Ask them. You may have to ask them pointed questions, “I see X is running slow. Any ideas on what more is needed here?”

      Check to see if compliance rules and/or standards are being hit on a regular basis. If not, why not.

      Streamlining processes to take less time is a good show of moving forward. Updating tools used in the jobs is also a good move forward. Writing schedules for things that get forgotten and left undone is another step forward.

      Just my idea, but if a boss is listening to their people that boss is a lot less apt to run out of ideas to improve the work, the process and the ending outputs.

  29. Bee's Knees*

    The guy whose office is across the hall from mine has called me the wrong name twice now. He keeps calling me Carrie. My name is not Carrie. There is a Carrie that comes from corporate sometimes, but she and I look nothing alike, and my name is not similiar. At all. Also, I share a name with one of his daughters. You’d think it would be easier to remember.

    And in the further adventures of people thinking I’m overly delicate, my boss told me to be careful, I was going to hurt myself yesterday. I was bent over at the waist to cut one of the ties on a box of paper. Not to pick up the box. Just to open it. It’s probably a miracle I’m still alive.

      1. Bee's Knees*

        It’s ridiculous! I appreciate the sentiment, but they treat me like I’m glass. I can, in fact, push empty carts, and manage to step over, and even see, spills the size of the palm of my hand.

    2. Emily S.*

      That is annoying. But some people are just terrible with names.

      Also, there is a very slight chance that he’s one of those people who have issues with faces — i.e. have difficulty seeing/processing details of peoples’ faces. It’s pretty unlikely, but you never know.

      1. Yorick*

        Truth. For a long time I couldn’t remember my neighbor’s name, and it turns out her name is also Yorick!

    3. Admin of Sys*

      As someone who just gave up years ago using anyone’s name unless they’re literally someone I share a cubical with or are actively wearing a name tag, it’s not necessarily an insult. Mind you, most folks who are as face blind as I am just stop trying at some point? But still, I have a better memory for the ip addresses of machines in my office than the names of coworkers – not because I care about the computers more, but because I literally can’t associate the people with the name, unless it’s re-enforced 100 times a week.

      1. Red Reader the Adulting Fairy*

        I’m mostly face-blind AND have zero visual memory or imagination (which is probably contributory). I work from home most of the time, so I recognize about three of my coworkers (the ones I’ve seen on site the most) – the rest, I either rely on name badges or I wait for them to recognize me.

      1. Venus*

        I did this years ago.
        “Hey Jack!”
        “My name’s Jason, not Jack”
        “And mine’s Venus, not Virginia”
        I never had a problem after that!

        If you use the wrong name and he doesn’t correct you then it suggests that he’s just really bad with names and I’d leave it.

      2. Emily S.*

        Reminds me of a funny anecdote I once heard.

        As part of a conversation about giving one’s name at Starbucks:
        An older gentleman came to the counter and placed his drink order. When asked his name, he replied, “Call me Ishmael.”

        :)

      3. Kat in VA*

        A Sales Engineer who isn’t in the office very often called me Cindy for the longest time. Even though he’d be told what my name was, for some reason, I was Cindy to him.

        After a while, I started calling him Marshawn. We actually – now – know (and remember) each other’s real names, but continue to call each other Cindy and Marshawn…sometimes to the consternation of bystanders who are like, “Hey, you know his name is really…”

        YES YES I KNOW IT’S THIS LITTLE INSIDE JOKE WE HAVE

      1. Bee's Knees*

        No, I just wait for him to come into my office. He’s a sweet man, but a hurricane, so I just ride it out.

    6. lawschoolmorelikeblawschool*

      I have a friend whose name is something like Samantha Gulia (just making that up), but the front desk guy at her office somehow thought her name was Julia Gulia. It still cracks me up, I guess he just assumed her names rhymed? He called her that every day he worked there.

      2. WeddingSingerFan*

        He was probably joking. That is was going to be Drew Barrymore’s married name in the Wedding Singer movie.

    7. Lisa Simpson*

      Next time he calls you Carrie, ask him “Hey, don’t you have a daughter named Carrie?” and when he says “No, her name is Miranda” you can say with a big smile, “What a coincidence! That is my name too.”

      1. Bee's Knees*

        I don’t think he’s doing it because he doesn’t remember my name, it’s that he’s busy and not paying attention to what he’s doing.

    8. Elizabeth West*

      I do faces well, but sometimes I get people’s names wrong (or fail to retain them, even if I hear them every day), and I do apologize for that. It may be a function of my LD, which does give me retention issues; I don’t know. For example, one person in my sangha is named Ginny, but for ages I had it in my head that her name was Lavender, which was WAY off for no discernible reason. I tell people to keep repeating it and eventually I’ll get it. I try to be patient with people who go off my paperwork and call me by my first name even though I don’t use it (my doctor’s office). It’s a joke now; I praise them when they get it right and call “Elizabeth” instead of “Firstname.”

      It could be that this person just doesn’t care. But if he’s anything like me, even without an LD, I’d just say, “It’s Bee’s Knees, actually. The TPS report went in yesterday.” and repeat until he gets it.

    9. first timer*

      I’m terrible with faces (someone I worked with in college changed their hair color and I didn’t recognize who they were for a day), but make a point to remember my colleagues or people who work with me regularly. Some people might not think anything of it, but if it’s someone I regularly work with (for YEARS) can’t find a way to remember my name, I get miffed. And I certainly think you don’t have attention to detail since you can’t take the time to read my email signature, name card, etc.

      We have a dude on my team (of 8 people, and I’ve been on the team with them for 2.5 years) and he CONSTANTLY mixes up my name with any of the other women on the team. Not saying it’s always that case or even the case in your situation. But just the optics of a guy having no issue remembering the male intern of 6 months but mixing up all the twenty-something women is not great to me!

      Names are important to a lot of people, for a lot of reasons! I try not to take it personally but it always baffles me when it’s something that you can actually look up in a lot of offices.

      1. T. Boone Pickens*

        As someone with two first names, I assume you’re going to call me by the wrong name at least 50% of the time. The only time I get slightly annoyed is when our first interaction is via email and you can literally see my name and still somehow manage to screw it up.

  30. MOAS*

    Hello.
    This doesn’t’ apply too much anymore but was a situation I had for a short time and would like to get opinions on.

    For a short while, of my core tasks as a manager was to reassign appointments daily to the correct rep/department. This was a temporary measure until my team would stop receiving those appointments.

    I would send out an email explaining why I send it to the rep and mention if there is a conflict to work with their team to work around it, and

    I also CC their supervisors/managers to keep them in the loop and write a message to them that if their rep is out of the office, please make sure someone takes care of the client.

    It’s not a long email, 4-5 lines max.

    My peer and I had a debate. They’re of the opinion that I need to check every rep’s calendar and their team’s calendar to ensure that they are present and available. and I should also go up to each person and make sure they know they have an appt.

    My stance is that I’m communicating this with enough time to the relevant people and their managers as well. I feel it’s every working person’s responsibility to read their email. If they choose not to, that’s on them. At our firm, same day appointments is not uncommon, and I give sufficient notice (at least 4-6 hours).

    What do yall think?

    1. VictoriaQ*

      I mean personally, I would be very annoyed if you came in to tell me I have an appointment. That’s what email is for, and if you tell me in person, I’m probably going to just write it down anyways.

      Though your last paragraph does suggest that appointments are getting missed? If so, I’d maybe talk to reps who are missing a lot to ask if there’s a better way to contact them, but otherwise, yeah, they’re adults. It’s their job to stay on top of their own workload.

    2. Asenath*

      If I followed your peer’s approach I’d never get anything done because I’d be spending all my time checking other people’s calendars – and, after all, that’s something best done by people concerned, the same people who are going to be entering the new appointment. So I’m definitely on your side.

    3. MoopySwarpet*

      If I were going to change the method to work more like your peer wants it to, I would only send it to the department supervisor and let them assign to the rep they choose.

      Realistically, though, your way is basically doing the same thing. If there’s a conflict, the supervisor is copied and can take it from there.

      1. MOAS*

        Ha, my first day of doing this, I did it that way, and the supervisor got pisseddddddd so this was a good *compromise*. *major eye roll*

    5. Not So NewReader*

      You can’t do their manager’s job for the manager. You would be overstepping. A more clear cut way would have been to just forward the appointments to the manager and let the manager take it from there. I think you had to send it directly to the person? If so then I think you handled it as best as possible without overstepping.

  31. Nameless Today*

    I’m an institutional support contractor for a federal agency. On Wednesday I had an interview for pretty much the exact same job except as a direct hire. Within 2 hours they emailed me asking for a list of references. Took me most of the day yesterday to track down one of them to ensure that the person was around (heading into summer vacay season!) and this morning one of my references reached out to say that they had received the reference request. The biggest issue for me is if they can’t hire me at a certain grade/step. I don’t have any level of my FAC. I mean contractors can’t get certified, but in terms of coursework completed. For Level 1 I’ve completed all but the 2 courses that require instructor led training. I’ll try and do one this summer, but I would have to take PTO to attend the 10 day course. I’ve completed all of the Level 2 and 3 courses that were online and didn’t require prereqs. If they can’t offer me a particular grade and step (the job I applied for can actually span 3 grades), I can’t take the job because it would be at least a 10% pay cut to gross and even more to take home because of 4.4% FERS contribution (health insurance etc would actually be pretty much break even). Nothing I can do about it other than see what happens. . .

    1. HRPam*

      Did the job post at multiple grades (and did you apply for all of them – or just the one you would be willing to take?) or was it one grade with a career ladder to a higher grade? They can’t hire you at a different grade than they posted – if it is a GS-11 with a full performance level of GS-13, they can only hire you at the GS-11. You can ask for a higher step, within the grade – if you have outstanding credentials, but not all agencies will do that.

  32. Jan Levinson*

    Is it worth kindly asking an employee to stop wearing so much perfume? It’s honestly not the smell itself (it would be totally tolerable if she wore a normal amount), but how much she wears. Anywhere she walks in the office…it smells like her perfume for several hours. I can’t walk past her desk without coughing because it’s SO strong. It’s even worse after she goes to her car to smoke. The perfume smell is 10x stronger when she comes back inside (I think she’s embarrassed by the smoking and trying to hide it).

    Here’s the thing…she’s given notice (after only working here a month), but doesn’t have a hard set end date. If it were only for a couple weeks, I’d probably let it go, but she has agreed to stay on until we replace her, which could be much longer than two weeks. Should I just let it go since she’s leaving (even if it could be for a couple more months?)

    1. mark132*

      I would say yes, if you can bring yourself to it, I think it would be best to not beat around the bush and be as forthright as you can.

    2. Sloan Kittering*

      I have had some success with this by framing it as a “me thing.” You don’t want to get into What Is The Objectively Correct Amount of Perfume to Wear. “I’m sorry, I’m finding that I’m really sensitive to perfume right now and I’m feeling a little sick.”

    3. EBennet*

      I’ve always found it is best to be honest – “I’m very sensitive to strong smells . . .” For situations where I am surrounded by overly perfumed people (such as the Sunday matinee at the local playhouse) I actually keep a tin of Vick’s vapor rub in my bag and rub some under my nose. It’s what morticians and medical examiners do to block smells.
      One time the woman next to me commented on the smell of the vapor rub and I replied that sometimes one must fight fire with fire.

      1. silverpie*

        Which raises (NOT begs) the question: was the commenter the offender or a fellow victim?

    4. Wishing You Well*

      Don’t let it go. This is a great time to practice assertiveness with minimal consequences. Practice, practice!
      Consider telling her the perfume is not masking the smoke.

    5. cactus lady*

      Yes do it! I once dated a guy who liked my perfume but had a really poor sense of smell, and for AGES after we broke up, until someone told me, I never realized that I was wearing *too* much perfume. All. The. Time. I was so embarrassed!

    6. Rainy*

      I would just say “I’m so sorry, but your perfume is making it hard for me to breathe. Can you wear less, or not at all, while you’re here?”

      A couple of years ago I had two young coworkers who used essential oil vaporizers in their offices. They were mostly under control until the day they both decided to use an essential oil that gave me and another coworker hideous allergy symptoms. I walked into the cloud in the hallway and my eyes and nose instantly started streaming and I was sneezing my head off. I had to grope my way, blind with tears and sneezing nonstop, back into my office, close the door, open the window, and then CALL my boss and say “X and Y are using some scent in their offices and I’m afraid to leave mine–can you talk to them?”

      If you’ve been muffling the coughs, I’d also just cough blatantly.

      1. Emily S.*

        This is a good script, but I would remove the apology:

        “(FirstName), your perfume is making it hard for me to breathe. Could you please wear less, or not at all, while you’re here?”

        Also — watch your tone when you say this. Make sure that you’re asking in a positive, collaborate tone of voice. You’re making a perfectly reasonable request, so ensure that you come across that way. Eye contact might help, also.

        1. Jasnah*

          Oof, I can’t imagine what tone would make “Your perfume is making it hard for me to breathe.” come across as positive and collaborative. At least the apology softens it a bit.

    7. irene adler*

      Please ask.
      I guarantee there are others who are bothered by the perfume strength.

  33. Watermelon M*

    I feel completely overwhelmed at my job. I had a breakdown last night and have felt like just giving up on everything. I know part of this is wanting to do a really good job, and part of it is really disliking my job. I’ve been looking for a new one but haven’t found any, and honestly have had fantasies of having a heart attack before work or getting hit by a car on some days. I’m starting to look for a therapist.

    In the meanwhile, should I bring up how I feel with my boss? She has told me previous people have burned out from my position but it took a couple years for that to happen. I have been here for 6 months. The thing I’m really overwhelmed with is that she asked me to be leader of a national team three months in. She originally was supposed to do this, but she didn’t want to because she is very busy, and tasked me to take it on. Everyone was surprised that she asked me to do it when she’s the subject matter expert on this certain topic. Upon hire they knew my background, but my boss either believes I can do it, or really REALLY doesn’t want to do it. I voiced my concerns (I really don’t feel comfortable, I will try my best but I need your help with lending me your background knowledge) but it was brushed off with a chipper “You can do it.” And now I’m absolutely floundering as leader and I don’t know what to do. I know a good chunk of it is imposter syndrome, another chunk is that I’m the youngest and least experienced member, I’m also the only woman of color on the team which makes me feel hyper aware. But I am sure everyone thinks I’m an idiot.

    I feel absolutely overwhelmed because I don’t have the answers on this topic, but my boss does. Half of it is anecdotal knowledge of local partnerships and relationships with other leaders in the field. The other half I’m sure it will come with time and more studying, but it’s not something I can start googling on. It really feels dependent on my boss’s 20 years of being at this department. (Ex., “Watermelon, what can you tell us about the relationship with X going back to 2013? Do you think this board will agree with [state specific cultural/political norm]?” My boss could answer that in a heartbeat.) I don’t want to look like a complainer or like I’m giving up, but I am absolutely over my head. I either need her to attend meetings with me so she can chime in, or I need a deep debriefing. This isn’t stuff I can research on the internet or in books. It’s just her personal experiences with people in the state. On top of that, she is asking me to take on multiple projects. I’m prioritizing and doing my best to reasonably say no. She said she’ll eventually hire some part time people to help, but I will have to push through until then. She said if I can make it to two years that will be perfect. I don’t know if I can mentally make it to next month but…I will have to try my best

    1. fposte*

      Wow, that sucks; I’m sorry. I’m reminded of that bogus saying that God never gives you more than you can handle. If it’s not true of God–which it’s not–it’s definitely not true of your manager.

      I don’t know your other circumstances and whether you can afford to leave before you find a new job, but if you can, remember that’s a possibility. In the meantime, see if you can mentally detach from your manager’s take on the job and start from scratch. What would be a survivable take on the job? She’s probably not going to take back the leadership position, and I’m guessing that’s a high priority. What would you shelve if you weren’t thinking about pleasing your boss and just about what was important? What would happen if you did that?

      And I absolutely think a deep briefing and regular followups with questions are things you should request. (I’d say ask for her to go to the meetings, but from the way you describe things that’s what she was trying to get out of.) I don’t know the situation, but it sounds to me like your boss desperately needs you, and you might be so focused on pleasing your boss that you’re underselling your leverage here.

      1. Jaid*

        I slightly mistook debriefing for deep breathing and y’know what? I think that would help too…

    2. LawBee*

      ok, re: the first paragraph – that was me three months ago, for like over a year. I had the “but if I was sick at least I wouldn’t have to go to work” fantasies (and when I actually DID get injured and was out for a week in debilitating pain, I WAS OK WITH IT), the thought that if one more thing happened I was going to quit, all of it.

      I’m much better now. What helped? Therapy, and I am SO GLAD you are looking for someone. It took time, and I had to try out a few (and it’s ok to try out multiple therapists at the same time if you can afford the copay), but I’ve got one now, and it’s great.

      As for the other, this isn’t imposter syndrome. This is you being assigned to a job that is way over your skillset and abilities, with no support. I hate to say it, but you’re probably going to have to request a sit-down no distractions meeting with your boss fora set period of time (so she can’t blow you off) where you lay all of this out, tell her that you’re struggling and you don’t see how you can effectively manage this without her direct assistance, and see what happens. If you want to keep this leadership position, tell her that. If you want out, tell her that. If you need help, tell her that.

      You’re not failing. She passed a buck that she should have kept on her desk. You haven’t been there long enough to know if this is normal for her, so I’d keep an eye out and see what else she passes off.

      Good luck! This sucks.

      1. Not So NewReader*

        Previous people burned out in several years?
        I hope she does not think this is an accomplishment.

        Since she is the common thread in this story I have to wonder if she is deliberately burning people out.
        Do you have anyone you can talk with there in confidence?
        It sounds to me like you are being set up to fail. Does this boss get along well with others? Does she have an ax to grind with the higher ups?

        So you know the work is above your skill set and it is still torquing your mind around and you are beating yourself up. This is a quality of life issue, especially when you imagine health issues happening so you can stay home.
        I am not clear on how a therapist who works with you is going to make your boss a better person. Perhaps she is the one who needs the therapy. It’s really not a good sign when the boss is keeping track of how many people she has burned out. That’s not normal. Burned out employees are not trophies.

        Instead of wracking up a big medical bill, why not go in tomorrow and just give notice?

        Look around for a friend/ally and see if you can get some advocacy going on for yourself.

    3. Esme*

      This sounds so incredibly frustrating. I’m glad you’re seeking therapy, and I hope you’re feeling more confident and like yourself soon.
      What really helps when I’m upside down in anxiety/overwhelmed feelings is drilling down to concrete items that I need to move forward, then listing them. I wonder if you could approach your boss and say, “I’m preparing for a meeting on [date]. I’m expecting questions on X, and I need to get some background information from you. Can we schedule a time to go over that this week?” If she pushes back and drops the cheerful “You can handle it!” again, you could say “I appreciate your confidence in me, and I intend to do my best here. But to do my best, I do need this background information. Could you spare 30 minutes/an hour to help me with that?”
      During meetings when you don’t have an answer, you can always acknowledge what you do and don’t know, then promise to follow up. “Boss has mentioned Y previously, but I’m not positive that that’s where things stand now. I’ll clarify that with Boss and report back to everyone.” Then, after the meeting, bring the list of questions to your Boss, let her know that the team needs certain details ASAP, then send out an email to the team afterward. If you’re consistent in your follow-ups after a meeting, you’ll seem organized and committed to the rest of the team, even if you don’t have answers on the spot.
      You’re in a bad spot here, but it’s not your doing. Try to focus on what you can do, do that, and let your boss know that you did (or can do) 1, 2, and 3, but that you need A, B, and C to do 4 and 5. By keeping your communication with her as practical as possible, you’re not going to look like a complainer (unless she’s a total nut).
      Good luck. I hope you find solid footing soon.

  34. super extra anon for this*

    This is venting rather than anything productive and I apologize for it.

    I’ve come to the horrible realization today that *I* am the office jerk.

    I was so upset the last week or so that my colleagues don’t interact with me at all beyond work. It started about a year ago with two colleagues and by now it’s everyone at my level.

    I don’t get asked on coffee runs (i.e. to the break room two floors above us, not to a coffee shop or something) when they go or on strolls around campus, and sometimes they forget to ask me for lunch. When I ask about coffee they’ve just been or don’t want or have urgent work. And recently they all have started to keep their doors closed when we previously had an open door policy, but there are frequent visits to each others offices and the walls are thin enough that I hear them laughing the whole time. But if I go there for anything but work related things I get an instant “oh I have work to do”. (No, I’m not taking up oodles of time from anyone, I also have work but I need the occasional two minutes away from the screen.)

    I’m still the first got to for teapot design or tech trouble though (I’m not IT but I like to help), so I’m not in work trouble, I guess.

    I’m not the most socially adept and I admit to that, I’m the only fat one and the only single person, and I’m not fitting into a mainstream mold with the things I like. And then yesterday I was so upset inside about this whole thing and then realized hey, it’s their right to do this, they’re not obligated to socialize with me and spend their time on me just because we are on the same team. That’s ok. I can continue to get coffee by myself, and I can ignore when they leave the room right away, I just have to say hello and smile and do my thing. I’m there to work. Then this morning as my mom – I’m my parents primary caretaker since my sister is abroad – told me about her annoying colleague and… I’m the annoying colleague at my office. I’m so ashamed! (If anyone has tips how not to be the annoying coworker, I’d be thankful as I don’t read social cues well.)

    1. Muriel Heslop*

      I am so sorry to hear this is happening. It doesn’t sound like you are intentionally unkind, which makes you *not* a jerk. You sound like a sweet person who is struggling with work relationships, but you want things to be different which is a great beginning for things to change.

      Can you ask your mother for guidance? If she tells you about her colleague, what would she suggest that colleague do? Also, has your manager given you any feedback about ways you can improve at work? I really encourage you to ask for support from people you trust. Be friendly. Have good boundaries. You sound helpful (and that you enjoy it) which is a wonderful starting point for good work relationships.

      Do you have hobbies and activities away from work that involve interpersonal skills? If so, perhaps work on those relationships and ask for input from friends you have there.

      Good luck! Please come back and update us! You can do this!

    2. Samwise*

      I’m so sorry — it feels terrible to be left out, even if you are right that you are being annoying or difficult.

      What exactly do you think it is you are doing that is bothering others? It’s hard to offer advice without knowing what is going on specifically. I wonder if you could ask your boss to help: have a meeting where you explain that you can have trouble reading social cues and that you have a sense that you have annoyed your colleagues, and ask her for her help: what has she observed? what specific actions could you take to improve? and so on.

      Is there anyone in the office who you feel would be willing to help you with this? You want someone who will be straight with you but not mean about it (I have found that people who are super nice can sometimes be unwilling to tell it like it is).

      Please let us know how you are doing!

    4. Librarian*

      Form what you’ve written here, I don’t think you’re being the annoying coworker. I think you’re just trying to fit in and belong with your team and you’ve just now realized it’s not working. You weren’t intentionally being the annoying coworker, which gives you extra bonus points. This probably isn’t helpful, but just let your coworkers be your coworkers. You be you. Keep up the hellos, the pleasantries, and occasional offers to join you for coffee or a stroll. Keep being office-friendly and if they don’t like it, then that’s on them–not you.

      Also, if it helps, pretend they’re jealous of you for being awesome at teapot design or tech troubleshooting.

    5. fposte*

      Hi, super, that’s no fun to realize. It’s hard to tell from your post if you’re the annoying colleague or just the one of these things that is not like the others, or maybe both; it can be easy for those things to feed on each other.

      I think much of what you say is true; they don’t have to make everybody they work with a social priority. What are some of the specifics that your mom mentioned that you saw in you? I’m guessing from what you describe it might be untimely social overtures, social conversation that goes on too long, or social conversation that’s not comfortable/rewarding for everybody in the conversation. IOW, usually it’s somebody who’s Too Much, and people back away to preserve their boundaries.

      Also, do you have good friends *out* of work? Is the parent situation a tough one for you? Sometimes stuff like that can make you want more from the human connections at work; if that’s true for you, try to up your social contact outside of work as much as you can.

      I hope you can find a peaceful place with this whatever you do, and I commend you for being willing to be reflective.

    6. Expand all Comments*

      What makes you think you are annoying? While it is possible that your office mates have randomly selected you to be the the office whipping boy/girl, it doesn’t sound like you think that. Usually people will say annoying colleague is annoying because (1) they don’t listen; (2) they are know it alls; (3) they overshare; (4)they make errors they blame on others; (5) they yell; (6) they are obsessed with the bathroom pooper; (7) they avoid doing any work; (8) they pry into peoples personal lives; etc., etc. Not fitting into a “mainstream mold” is not usually seen as an annoyance, although it may speak to your feelings of not fitting in at the office.
      It could be you are seeing individual actions as being part of some larger group-decision & group-consensus that you are annoying (Carrie doesn’t want to eat lunch with me, Julia declined to go on a campus walk with me, Andrew closes his door — EVERYONE HATES ME) when really there may be individual reasons (Carrie has a meeting; Julia is wearing 5 inch heels, Andrew needs absolute quiet to focus).

    7. Annie Dumpling*

      I have a job where I am pretty much a department of one supporting a division. Which means that I am often overlooked. They go to lunch, have birthday parties, take walks, — don’t think to include me. One year, they forgot to invite me to the Holiday party. But like you, I realized that I just needed to show up and “say hello and smile and do my thing” ( I am also the go to person for help). I enjoy my job, and I decided to not let anything stop me from that enjoyment or prevent me from killing it at work.

      Over time, through my smiling/doing my job well/helping, I now have a network of people who I am on ‘work friendly’ basis with, some outside my division. They will wave me over at company meetings to sit with them, we chat when we meet up in the cafeteria, I ask them to grab coffee (usually when we have to meet for an issue – ‘hey let’s grab a coffee and discuss’).

      You keep doing your best, be a superstar and don’t let your officemates dim your lights. Appreciate yourself, be kind to others, and remind yourself that you are enough.

    8. PSB*

      Having just had the same realization in a completely different, not-work-related context, I know the feeling and I’m sorry you’re having to deal with it. Go a little easier on yourself. You’re not the office jerk and you don’t have anything to be ashamed of. It sucks feeling like the only one left out of a group you should naturally belong to. It sounds like you have great insight that nobody’s doing anything wrong. But don’t turn the blame on yourself, either.

    9. Close Bracket*

      I don’t think you are the office jerk, I think you are the office misfit. I’ve been, and currently am, the office misfit, and I am sorry you are in this position. It sucks. Continue to get your coffee, go on strolls, get lunch, etc. Smile, nod, say hello if people are around while you do these things, but don’t reach out since it’s not welcome. Find a support system, even an online one, outside of work and home bc without some social outlet to boost your spirits after being a misfit and a caretaker, you will burn out.

    10. MPA*

      oh man I relate. I just parted ways with my job last week, but not fitting into a very small team was such a struggle for me. In my head, I knew it didn’t matter as I was very good at my job and hitting deadlines, but as a person it did. Everyone wants to belong. We just do.

      No advice, just empathy.

    11. fhqwhgads*

      I think there’s a difference between the office jerk and the annoying coworker, and without knowing more details it sounds like you might be the latter, but are not necessarily the former? I don’t know if that makes you feel any better.

      It is entirely possible to annoy people without being a jerk, is what I’m getting at. Possibly what your mom described to you about her colleague that you recognized in yourself is some jerk-like behavior? Or was described to you as such by her? But if the gist was just that your mom described some behaviors she finds irritating in a colleague and you realized you do the same things with yours, and this is the result, it’s possible you’re not a jerk? But you still may be bugging people? In which case now you have info such that if you want to change, you can? But also, the whole thing you said about “they’re not obligated to socialize with you” is true, nor you them. So you could also choose to see this as people just not meshing and could try to let it slide off your back. It doesn’t need to be a judgement of you personally. Some people just don’t gel with each other and that’s acceptable and normal and different from active dislike.

  35. VictoriaQ*

    First off, I’d like to thank everyone from last week who responded to my post about my boring job with hours to fill. However, being so new to the post-college working world (2 whole months)… how does one go about finding job-related/industry related training or news? I’m in an accounting role but I got a degree in and hope to move into a financial analyst role.

    Does anyone have any ideas? I don’t want anything I need to listen to, mostly because it would be very distracting to me at work and I’m too new and young (probably on average about 20 years younger than the rest of the office) to be wearing headphones for hours. I’ve tried looking up [ideal job/field] training, but I mostly get information about how to get a degree. My Excel skills are pretty strong, so I’m not hurting to brush up on those. And given how little experience I have, I have no idea where to go next or what skills I should build up. Heck, even some keywords to type into Google would be much appreciated.

    1. irene adler*

      Look for trade journals in your industry. They will have info on industry and job stuff.
      Might also look for professional organizations in your field. They may have things to read on -line and point you towards different types of training avenues.
      This might involve finding a number of different organizations or journals before you find info that fits your interest.

      2. Nicki Name*

        In fact, your company is likely to have a few subscriptions to the most relevant trade journal and you may be able to find communal copies of it lying around in your break room or reception area.

    2. Admin of Sys*

      “financial analyst blogs” in google throws a lot of results, but having no knowlege of the industry makes it hard to evaluate if any of them are decent lists. But at least one of the lists is from Forbes, which is usually worth reading.

    3. Booksalot*

      I look for senior/high-performing people in my field on LinkedIn, then check what organizations they’re involved with, LI communities they’re members of, et cetera.

    5. fluffy*

      If your Excel skills are strong, perhaps more training in Access would be useful. And you may want to reconsider listening–so much is available in either audio or video. I use Lynda.com through my public library, and I use one earbud on my least visible side. People don’t notice that I’m listening, and I can rip it out in seconds.

    6. it happens*

      I missed this last week, so it might already have been covered. If you have a lot of time on your hands set up some coffee dates with other people in the company to start to make your own network and understand how things really work. Start with people you interact with naturally, find out how they got to where they are in the company and ask them who else they think it would be useful to know. And ask them what they read to keep on top of the industry news. You can start with your boss. And then find someone in the company who is doing that financial analyst job internally and find out what they do, maybe see some work product and ask how they keep up.
      Good luck!

    7. Elbereth Gilthoniel*

      I have two ideas (take or leave as you see fit!)
      1. Check out the Association for Financial Professionals (www dot afponline dot org). They are a relatively new-ish organization – I think started in the last five years or so. I wouldn’t jump into their accreditation right away, but checking out their website could give you and idea about skills in a financial analyst role.

      2. I find it helpful to read job descriptions of positions that interest you, and see what skills they are looking for as a plus. For example, in several finance manager or senior financial analyst positions, I have seen that they are looking for data visualization skills (Tableau, PowerBI, etc) and some coding (SQL, Python, etc.) Both of those will be in high demand for financial analysts as data sets grow. Try reading job postings in your area and see what skills are listed for roles that you want to move into.

      Hope this helps!

    8. Emily S.*

      Check out your local library’s digital learning site. Hopefully they will have one.

      Many libraries offer free access to training websites such as Lynda-dot-com (which I HIGHLY recommend). Log on to there, check out some classes. Also, if you don’t want to use sound, they have transcripts for all the courses, which you can follow along with as you watch the videos.

      Lynda has an extremely broad range of course topics, so I bet you can find some that are of interest. They have advanced courses for software like Excel, Photoshop, and many, many others. (I took a very helpful course on creating charts in Excel, and also how to work with pivot tables.) There’s also a lot of courses on things like web design, software development, all kinds of stuff. It’s really an amazing site with a lot of great resources.

      If your library does not offer access to Lynda, sometimes you can access it through a neighboring library system (if you’re able to get an account/card with them). Or, as a last resort, get a free trial (it’s 1 month), and then you can switch and make new accounts for other email addresses you may have (e.g. extra Google accounts like many of us keep for just such uses).

    9. Good luck with that*

      Seconding the suggestion to learn Access and SQL, and any other database programs yet u run across – those are MS products that interface well with Excel, but there are a lot of others.
      How’s your PowerPoint? Both accountants and financial analysts need to present data/information. Look into not just the technical aspects of PowerPoint (which are many and complex), but also presentation style. Things like not crowding too much on a single slide; how to summarize and then dig deeper without losing your audience; how to choose what to emphasize, and how to do it; when it does or doesn’t make sense to embed a graph/table/spreadsheet versus linking…. A lot of us number-crunchers are far better with numbers than words, but being able to create good presentations is important. Ultimately, the data we aggregate and analyze has to be usable by the people making decisions.

  36. ThatGirl*

    Last year we added some new fields to our CRM to help our QA team track issues better, but their efficacy is dependent on how well my team adds the data. We went over the fields as a team, they were explained several times, I sit RIGHT behind my coworker and she asks me questions all the time … and yet she admitted she had not been filling those fields in at all.

    I am inching toward BEC with her but seriously? I know we went over it but she made it sound like it was my fault.

  37. JohannaCabal*

    I’m currently mentoring someone who just got fired from a yearslong role they’d been in after graduating school. Naturally, they are very concerned about finding the next role. I’m trying to help as much as I can.

    Personally, I was fired after a three month role (I made the mistake of taking a role I could not succeed in after a layoff earlier in 2009). Since it was only for three months I was able to leave it off my resume (and even some job applications, in hindsight I even lied on a few about being fired and I do feel shame about that now). Of course, my mentee is not able to do this.

    Throwing it all to everyone else who has been fired, terminated, what have you, how did you find your next position?

    1. annakarina1*

      I got fired a few years ago from a job for not being a good fit after four months, and I worked two volunteer jobs while getting by on unemployment and interviewed at tons of jobs. I eventually got hired after seven months of searching, and it was a real drag to continue to interview a lot. I’ve been at my current position for nearly two and a half years, and am much better at it because it’s much busier than the job I got fired from, which was a one-task job that I got bored at a lot.

      1. JohannaCabal*

        How did you explain it when you eventually interviewed for the role you did land? I also asked around some of my aquaintances and family members and some did fess up to “stretching the truth” (i.e., calling it a layoff, pretending they still worked at the place), which makes me think this is sadly more common than I thought. I really want this person to succeed and not gain a reputation for lying.

        1. annakarina1*

          I don’t remember much, I likely just said I wasn’t a good fit or it was a temporary role (it was a contract role, it just ended much sooner than expected).

    2. Close Bracket*

      > how did you find your next position?

      I went to company websites and submitted applications online until I got something.

    3. NACSACJACK*

      My experience is a while ago (think last century) but I took at least one good step. After interviewing a couple places in the medium-size city I was in, I moved back home (1 state away) to a bigger metro area and started interviewing there instead. I will admit, I did the thing that Alison told us not to do, “tell the absolute truth – i got fired”, but now i know because of this blog that I was in a bad spot, toxic work environment, it wasn’t working out, it wasnt going to work out and that is that. I was lucky enough to have skills that were needed back then in a company with a small IT dept that needed to grow. The SAD part was I moved from a lower COL to a higher COL and when I found my next job, they offered me $200 over my previous job’s base salary when I was getting $6G OT as well. I took it because it was a job, but that first year was tough. I would have your mentee read what Alison has written here about what to say in interviews, when fired from a previous job. Also, your mentee should be prepared for under cutting of wages and gently push back. Best wishes.

    4. Fortitude Jones*

      I was laid off from my first job out of college after five months, but I was miserable at that job and wanted out anyway. My mom suggested I register with a temp agency she had used many moons ago for a direct hire position, and five months after my lay off, I was at a law firm making $2 more than I made at the job I was let go from. I ended up being hired on at the firm a year or so later, and after I got my third job out of college, I was able to remove the first job from my resume altogether – it very rarely comes up.

      If temp and/or direct hire agencies are a thing where you are, you should direct your mentee to sign up with as many as she can. The agency will work with her to craft a palatable explanation for her firing, and once she has a couple of placements under her belt, she can then remove the first employer altogether as well.

  38. gwal*

    About two months ago I applied for an opening that would effectively be a lateral transfer into a department where I previously did a temporary placement and liked it. The hiring manager said she was very excited to see my name on the list of applicants and interviewed me for the position. Because the office wanted to hire for their headquarters location, they went with someone there for the official opening but told me they “would be giving me an offer” through a different lateral transfer mechanism that would allow me to change offices but stay in my city where the organization has some satellite offices.

    I really want out of my current job, but it’s been almost two months since the aforementioned promise of an offer. I’ve had a little bit of contact (most recently around last Monday) with the deputy to the hiring manager in the other department but nothing formal has been received by my current office.

    Should I still be applying to other jobs? This is starting to feel like a wild goose chase. For context, it’s typically a very slow hiring environment. I had applied to an entirely different department two months ago and interviewed then as well, but they never got back to me and I feel much more settled about that one because it’s pretty clear I’m NOT getting hired there.

    Thanks!

    2. Fortitude Jones*

      You should always continue your job search until you have a signed offer letter in hand and a start date.

  39. Employee Trainer*

    TL; DR: When a company has a specific person hired to be the employee trainer, what percentage of training is that person responsible for and what percentage is a new employee’s direct supervisor responsible for?

    Longer version: I’m the one-person training department for a company of approximately 150 employees. I generally do a standard new hire training class with new employees, but because of scheduling I can’t always meet with them in their first week. I’m finding that their direct supervisors aren’t giving them basic information/direction, but rather leaving them to guess on their own until they meet with me. Example: the new employee gets a login for software we use every day. When I meet with them I’ll train them on *all* of the uses of it, but the direct supervisors aren’t even spending 10-15 minutes to get the new employee started on basic tasks.

    Am I expecting too much from the supervisors?

    In most cases, I’m not in the same office/work site as the new employees are. Whereas the new employee and the supervisor usually work in the same place within eyesight of each other. Does that change expectations?

    1. Murphy*

      This could be a communication issue. They may be expecting you to do all the training and you are (reasonably) expecting them to do it when you’re not able to be there right away. Maybe let the manager know what you’re going to go over and when so they know that they may need to come in before you and do some training.

      Can you put together and slide decks or other tutorials with general information that new hires can look at independently as a starting off point?

    2. Not your Dad's Recruiter*

      I suggest getting together with HR and coming up with a Hiring Manager’s New Employee checklist where it is outlined what the expectations for the 1st day / 1st week/1st month are for both a Hiring Manager and a New Hire. Your training session(s) will be in this checklist.
      Then, as suggested by Murphy, put together a short list of what you’d cover in your training, and it will be distributed along with other 1st-day information – logins, emails, contacts, benefits, etc.

  40. MOAS*

    another Q lol

    So a while back, I turned down an interview w/ a recruiter b/c I was promoted to my current position. I’m enjoying it so far but there are some things that make me want to look now.

    I told him that I really did like the opportunity he presented but that the timing wasn’t right since I had gotten promoted. I told him I appreciated him keeping me in mind and helping me. He responded back saying congrats on my promotion and best of luck and keep them in mind.

    His message seemed pretty warm and genuine so I would contact him to work w/ them in the future.

    Now my Q is — if he asks why I’m looking, what would I even say? The reason I’m even thinking of this is that my boss is difficult to work with. She’s…ugh. too much to get in to. but I’m tired of her. I do love working with my direct manager, and my team etc.

    1. The Man, Becky Lynch*

      The good news is that recruiters tend to not be super concerned with the “Oh I’m not interested in moving” switching to “Actually now I am.” They aren’t the hiring managers who may think this is a flag, they just want good candidates to pitch for the roles they’re trying to help fill.

      So just say “with further consideration, my interest in moving to a new position has returned, if you have any opportunities that you think I’m a good fit for, please let me know.”

    2. SuperAnon*

      I just had an agency recruiter ask why I’m interested in getting a new position, so you’d want to have something figured it, because it’s very possible you’ll be asked.

    3. Not your Dad's Recruiter*

      Recruiters do ask why are you looking/considering moving on, even when we contact a prospective candidate ourselves.
      It is perfectly fine to say that the reality of that promotion turns out to be quite different from the expectations.

  41. Michelenyc*

    First I want to thank everyone for their advice on my opportunity in The Netherlands. It was very helpful and I have taken screenshots of everything. I am on my third interview. The first 2 were recruiter interviews and my next interview is with the hiring VP on Wednesday it will be a video Skype which is not my favorite but I will get over it. Fingers crossed!

  42. Withered Wad*

    Brainstorm with me, AAM! My office has a completely toxic and ineffective employee. So very bad at her job that she has been given busy work for years, most of which is low priority, despite having a high-level title and salary.

    My boss and another above her have made it very clear to me that their hands are tied and that there is a very specific reason that essentially requires them to keep her employed. What reason could this be? I’m interested in everything from the likely to the outlandish:
    -Employee saved the CEO from a fire?
    -Employee has legal resources that would sink us if let go?
    -What else you got?

    1. Ella P.*

      Well… on a serious note (not sure you are looking for that!), there was someone like this kept at my job, cause she had… relations with her married boss… while he was fired, she was kept on and milked it for all it was worth! She eventually left, with no job to go to, after 14 years… I assume because her coming in whenever she wanted using FMLA as an excuse wasn’t flying with the new company hired to manage FMLA requests.

      I still remember her little skirts, so short I’d look away, to avoid seeing something I didn’t want to!

      Sorry, that probably doesn’t help!

      1. Mags*

        Everyone is a protected class (multiple actually). That has no bearing on your continuing employment unless you are being fired because of your protected class.

        1. Moray*

          That’s a bit pedantic. If she’s in a protected class that has ~historically been discriminated against~ then.
          And just because it would be her poor performance that got her fired she could easily claim otherwise.

          If she’s given an indication that she might be trigger-happy with the lawyers if she’s fired, many organizations would just suck it up and keep her out of expediency, even if they knew she wouldn’t win the suit. I’ve seen this situation play out before.

    5. Coffee Owlccountant*

      Oh, she’s definitely a member of a “family” and your company hasn’t paid their “dues” timely enough.

    6. Mags*

      I would assume she filed (or threatened) some sort of suit in the past and they don’t want to chance it again.

    7. Neosmom*

      Could she have a “window dressing” certification that your organization requires in order to keep / win business?

    8. Miss Pantalones en Fuego*

      She’s actually Severus Snape, and is crucial to the plan to ultimately defeat Voldemort. She’s just really, really undercover.

    9. lawschoolmorelikeblawschool*

      “Connected” to someone high up or influential. That shit happens at my job constantly.

    10. Glomarization, Esq.*

      Humorless answer: I’m guessing an illegal adverse employment action that resulted in a legal settlement. The company wasn’t flush enough to pay cash, so the settlement included a guarantee of employment and a paycheck for some number of months.

      Tongue-in-cheek answer: Ancient curse on the land the building was built on! If she leaves, the building will collapse.

    11. Seven hobbits are highly effective, people*

      She’s secretly a superhero, and the reason your company keeps her on is as part of her secret identity. She just doesn’t have the bandwidth to be good at her job and pleasant to be around after being out fighting crime and dealing with supervillains all night, but the company is keeping her on for the good of the city.

      1. Rainy*

        This is my favourite answer! I think I would myself choose to believe this, while assuming it’s more like what Glomarization suggested above. :/

    12. Policy wonk*

      I’d guess she successfully sued for discrimination or something else employment related, and any steps taken against her now could be seen as retaliation. (Also possible the lack of real, productive work is intentional on the company’s part. I knew of a case like this where they refused to give the person any work to do hoping she would quit. Which infuriated her and made her determined to outlast the boss.)

      1. Clever user name*

        Been there. It could actually be that the big boss doesn’t have it in her to make it happen. Perhaps she knows it must happen some day & is hoping it will take care of itself. Maybe the problem employee is extremely beloved by the community/ vendors/ other constituents and big boss is worried about optics.

  43. automaticdoor*

    Okay, so I’m cranky and amused at the same time. My non-profit organization is working on a set of publications, and we’re looking for a designer. (I’m not asking for help here–already have a wide variety of RFPs out.) I just got a rejection for our RFP from a firm that specializes in design work for non-profits. Not because our budget was too low, not because the project was too hard — but because they hate our logo! We apparently have “problematic brand and identity issues–primarily in presenting a wild, cursive font that is not easily discernible by audiences it reaches out to” which would be “really hard to work with.” I haven’t provided any design specifics just yet, but it would not involve the font in our logo, which we’ve had for decades and which has wide recognition in our sub-field. Am I right that they’re just trying to drum up a rebrand from us in addition to the other work?

    2. Lizabeth*

      Sounds like they crossed the professional line in answering your RFP. If they are saying that kind of stuff, imagine what they would be like to work with on the real project! Drop the firm from your list and don’t give them another thought or opportunity.

      1. automaticdoor*

        Yeah, they’re not getting a response. Glad to know I’m not the only one who thought it was inappropriate.

    3. Narvo Flieboppen*

      It could be they’re just jerks. It could be they were fishing for a shot at a rebrand with your company, but that’s a crap way to approach selling services.

      I’m also a jerk, so I’d say just send them a note thanking them for their input and that you’ll exclude them from future RFPs, since working with your logo font is beyond their skills.

      2. automaticdoor*

        I’m thinking no response because I don’t want to get into a pissing match, but I really like this one lol

    4. Withering Wad*

      Oof. They could be trying to drum up a rebrand. Or, if they are particularly high-end, they would not want other clients thinking they were involved in your logo design.

      1. automaticdoor*

        The interesting thing is that they work specifically with smaller non-profits, so it’s not like some Fortune 100 is going to be turned off.

    5. zora*

      No, totally! It’s just like ‘negging’ I have heard anecdotally that it is actually a sales strategy that is out there! Tell people their stuff sucks, and they’ll ask you to fix it for them. I’m skeptical it actually works, but I’d bet that’s what they’re doing. Otherwise, why bother giving a reason?

  44. Fake Old Converse Shoes (not in the US)*

    Our receptionist put a sign saying “Workday starts at 10am”. Nobody gets here before 10.15 on a quiet day, so demanding passive-aggressively that everyone should be here before 10.00 is giving people yet another reason to leave.

    1. Rusty Shackelford*

      Huh. Doesn’t seem like something that would be the receptionist’s decision. Or was this under someone else’s orders?

    2. Toodie*

      Or maybe the receptionist is posting it defensively: “No one will answer the phone before 10.”?

    4. Fake Old Converse Shoes (not in the US)*

      Our suspicions are she was instructed by the owners, who swear (cross their hearts) they don’t care about it. However, she doesn’t like to open the door for us and doesn’t hide it.

      1. valentine*

        she doesn’t like to open the door for us and doesn’t hide it.
        She doesn’t like getting there first or she has to buzz everyone in?

        I don’t understand people who don’t want to be alone or are the “let’s all suffer together” type.

    5. The Man, Becky Lynch*

      This is bizarre and seems like an overstep on her part! But I’ve seen owners have administrative staff do things like this and then go “oh no no no, def wasn’t meeeeeeeee.” Yet if it wasn’t you, owner, then why aren’t you ripping down the sign right now? Oh right because it was you.

  45. AW*

    So I found out on Tuesday my job is being made redundant, which is a bit of shock and I’m worrying about the mortgage I only got 6 months ago and I really don’t have the savings to keep me going for long.

    I’ve been cleaning up my CV and hitting up my internal network to see if there’s anything internally that might come open soon. It’s a big firm so there are some options and I’ve got an external interview lined up early next week.

    It just sucks being in the office at the moment the mood is really flat.

    I think I’ve done all I can reasonably do but if anyone else has any tips or suggestions of what I should be doing to prepare then I’d be happy to hear them.

    1. Errol*

      Stockpile as much money as you reasonably can for the foreseeable future, I’d also update your LinkedIn with the “looking for work” toggle so recruiters get access to your profile just to boost your network there.

      Beyond that, your doing everything you should be! 6 months is a great window to line something up in!

    2. lawschoolmorelikeblawschool*

      Best of luck. My husband was laid off 3 months after we closed on our home. It’s stressful but hopefully you can get through it!

    3. Venus*

      This isn’t relevant to work, but you might ask the bank about minimizing mortgage payments (stretching them out over more years) or other ways to reduce spending in the short-term.

    4. Minocho*

      One thing I learned the hard way (by crashing an burning at an interview for a really good opportunity when I really needed something) was to work really hard to maintain as positive an attitude as possible. This is scary news, it throws a wrench in plans and it’s going to add to your stress, but practice self care and self love, and lean on “team me” as needed to keep your mood positive and determined as much as possible.

      Don’t forget that you are awesome, and there are opportunities out there that would be perfect for you!

      Good luck!

      1. AW*

        I’m doing ok keeping things professional at work and it’s been a pretty relaxed week, I’ve been able to come in late or leave a bit early most days.

    5. SuperAnon*

      Can you go beyond your internal network? Wouldn’t you want to be looking at job boards and branching out?

      1. AW*

        I’m keen to stay in the company if I can, it’s a good place to work, but I have looked externally too, the interview I’ve got next week is with a new company.

    6. Eeether Eyether*

      I’m sorry to hear that! One thing you can do to keep the cash flow going, is to charge everything you normally pay cash for, assuming you don’t already do so, and pay the minimum amount due each month until you get another job. You’ll rack up some interest, but it gives you some breathing room. But–pay it off as *soon* as you get another job. Best of luck!!

      1. Llellayena*

        I have to strongly disagree with this. There are many ways to reduce overall expenses and save more over a short time period besides piling it all on a credit card and ending up paying MORE than you spent due to the collected interest. Cut out optional spending, switch to less expensive options for things, hold off on optional repairs, renovations or maintenance until a new job is lined up but DON’T put it all on credit.

        1. Fortitude Jones*

          Agreed. She may not find a job quick enough, or with a salary high enough, to pay it all off in one go. Your suggestions are what I did when I lost my job eight years ago.

    7. Katefish*

      If need be, most lenders, including mortgage lenders, will give you unemployment forbearance. Hopefully you don’t need it, but it never hurts to ask. I work in a related field, and it really helps to be proactive.

  46. halfwolf*

    I found a really interesting listing that is asking in the application questions for applicants to “describe a time when you had to solve a complex or difficult challenge at work or school. Outline the challenge and the steps you took to find a resolution.” This kind of question unfortunately always causes me to draw a complete blank! I’m an executive assistant right now trying to transition into more project management type work, so I know I need to be able to demonstrate that I have those kinds of skills. If anyone has any tips about the kinds of experiences to reflect on that would lead to good examples here, I would be really grateful. I’m just having a hard time really remembering work that I’ve done that would demonstrate this, partially because as an assistant I don’t have (or don’t feel like I have) as much ownership over outcomes as other roles.

    1. Librarian*

      (Librarian by education, project manager by trade)

      The listing asking you to describe how you solved a challenge means that they want insight into how you solve problems and make decisions. Just think about the daily work that you do as an executive assistant. Do you coordinate schedules? Triage emails? Arrange appointments and meetings? Have you ever had to pull your executive out of a meeting to go to another meeting or take a phone call? Do you escort your executive’s guests and visitors to the office? Once you have a few of these tasks in mind, think about how you work through them – for example, what goes into prioritizing your executive to meet with Joe instead of Susan? What’s the criteria you judge a situation by to determine if you need to pull your executive out of a meeting or interrupt him?

      As a project manager, you’d be working with requirements, cost, time, and resources. If you can show that you know how to manage these, then you’ve got it! As an executive assistant, you’re already doing this – the executive is your resource, you’re helping to manage his (or her!) time, your requirement is to help him do his job, and your cost is the savings and value you provide by keeping him on time and on schedule.

      1. halfwolf*

        thank you thank you! this is exactly the kind of framing that i’m looking for – really appreciate you taking the time to help. being an assistant frequently means that when my work is done perfectly, it’s invisible, so this is really helpful in getting me to think about this in the right way.

    2. baconeggandcheeseplz*

      Adding to what Librarian said, part of project management is how to handle situations where things go wrong.
      The first thing I thought of was when I was acting as a temporary executive assistant and my VP had a very last minute flight cancellation. I had to arrange an alternate flight (and I think hotel) quickly, juggling his needs/preferences with the limited availability/company travel restrictions. So maybe you have an example like that?

    3. Awful Annie*

      I was impressed by an EA who quietly organised a complex administrative request from some difficult external people and then dealt with it being cancelled as a result of organisational politics. Not only did she turn a series of vague requests into a clear plan for the day, and arranged all the bookings, but she then put it discretely on hold while politics flared up, and then arranged the cancellations without gossiping or complaining.

  47. IrishEm*

    So I’m 6 months in to my call centre job and last week my probation was extended because I had so many sick days. So far, so corporate norm. I then had to leave work with a gastric complaint this week but was back i n the next day. So HR wants me to see the company doctor. I’m trying not to panic, I tend to only get sick once or twice a year, this year was an aberration. How do I navigate the company Dr who will probably not be able to find anything wrong with me? Or should I just dust off my CV and be ready to start applying for new jobs?

    1. HappySnoopy*

      Is this an intermittent chronic condition your regular doctor know about? Wondering if there’s some form or record you can get from your doc that you’d be willing and able to shate when go to company doc. Not a waiver for them to see all your private med records, since company doc may have different fiduciary requirements in sharing, but enough general sense that company doc may have context when u see them.

      1. IrishEm*

        It was literally one sinus infection and one chest infection, both of which were doing the rounds of the office that just knocked me out this year, and hasn’t happened before, with a tummy bug picked up in the office on top of all the other sick days :(

        My underlying chronic issues are pain related and under control, so not necessary to disclose.

  48. Kimmy Schmidt*

    Who did you use as references while hunting for your second professional job?

    I’m not job hunting, but I’m asking for the distant future. I’m in my first professional job out of college and have no idea who to use as references for the next one, since I wouldn’t want to tip off my current boss I’m job hunting. It seems odd to think about using the same references I used to get this job, as they seem very connected to “college” and it wouldn’t make sense to use them after I have some experience. One reference would likely be a colleague, but what about the others? I don’t want to use all people from the same organization, right?

    Am I overthinking this? Any ideas?

    1. Minerva McGonagall*

      When I went from my first job to my second (current) job, all three were from my first job. I did make sure that they were varied in what they could say about me; one was my recently retired and excellent boss who very much supported me getting a new job, one was a higher up I worked with very closely on multiple projects for a few years, and another was a colleague with the same job title as me and could talk about how much I collaborated with others.

    2. Natalie*

      In my case I’d had two bosses move on from the company, so they were my references plus my current boss once I had a contingent offer. I don’t think it’s a big deal at all that your references would be from the same organization. Anyone hiring you will see that this is your first job!

    3. Lily Rowan*

      I think college people are fine! And so is all people from the same organization! I think especially early in your career, references are more about confirming the impression the hiring manager has of you. So, any three people who will say you get to work on time and do a good job are fine.

    4. Metameta*

      Before my first professional job, I worked in an elevated grad student position that I actually helped create from scratch during my graduate degree in the same field, so I had that supervisor serve as my first reference for what kind of employee I was. The second was a cohort from my graduate program who worked in the sort of role I would be collaborating with who could speak to what it was like to work with me.. The third was a former coworker at the aforementioned student job who had been promoted into the newly created position and could speak to the work I had done and impact it made on the department even after leaving.

      I got the second professional job with these references (in addition to well crafted application materials and a good interview process of course)

    5. Seifer*

      For my second professional job, I used a friend from the current job that had quit, and then someone that managed me at the previous job. I didn’t use anyone that still worked at the current job because I didn’t want anyone to know I was job hunting. But one from before and one from during worked well for me.

    6. Kimmy Schmidt*

      Thank you for all the suggestions! I don’t know where I got it in my head that references shouldn’t come from the same place, probably a college career center somewhere along the line. I was definitely overthinking this.

  49. Emma*

    I have an odd situation that’s been going on for a few months now and I’m not sure how to address it. In the office I work in, my desk is situated in a wide hallway, in very close proximity to a coworker’s office. My chair is about three feet from his office door. Just about every day, sometimes multiple times a day, I hear my coworking violently gagging in his office, and sometimes it turns into vomiting. On really severe occasions he will shut the door and I can hear the sounds of him vomiting for several minutes. Medically, I have no idea what is going on and I really prefer not to know. Personally, I am disgusted and hate hearing these noises. It’s highly distracting and nauseates me. I don’t know the appropriate way to address this if there is one. But it doesn’t look like moving my desk or his office is an option, so I’m at a loss!

    1. Murphy*

      Ugh…I wouldn’t be able to sit near that (I’m a sympathetic vomitter) but I have no idea what I’d do in that situation! I’m sorry you (and he!) are going through that.

    2. Wishing You Well*

      Tell HR and/or his boss TODAY and get noise-blocking headphones. This is really alarming and his boss and HR need to address it. He is very, very sick in some way. I hope you and he get relief from this.
      (Don’t expect HR or his boss to give you an update.)

    3. Frank Doyle*

      Oh my goodness! I don’t know what you should do either, but that sounds really awful! I guess talk to him first, see what the deal is?

    4. Interviewer*

      I’m in HR, and we send people home for vomiting at work once, let alone multiple times a day (excluding morning sickness). You mention that you don’t want to know what’s going on, and I’m assuming that you aren’t planning to pop in and ask him sympathetically if he’s okay or if he needs help. If not, mention the situation to his supervisor, including the frequency, and ask your supervisor if you can be relocated until the issue is resolved.

    5. Venus*

      At the very least this person should be making the noises in a washroom (not in an office), although ideally they would be sent home or have this addressed longer-term in some way.

      I was told years ago about someone who had a colleague making weird gag-type noises early in the morning, and after a few days of it they just loudly said (so that everyone in the area could hear, yet no one could see them) “Would you do that somewhere else?!” and the next day the person wandered off to the washroom at around that time. This sounds like one of those times, and although you don’t have to say it directly, I would definitely mention it to someone (the vomitting is particularly gag-worthy).

    6. LizB*

      Can you pop on headphones or crank your music when you hear it start? I’m guessing there’s no consistent timing of these incidents, so it’s not something you can prep for. I’m sorry, this sounds like an awful situation on all levels.

      1. LizB*

        After seeing other replies, I feel the need to speak up for your coworker a little bit. I have a still-not-diagnosed health issue that gives me a hyperactive gag reflex — it’s super easy for me to trigger my gag reflex with normal daily activities (brushing my teeth, swallowing pills, just not blowing my nose often enough or drinking enough water), and sometimes that will lead to vomiting. I’ve been back and forth with about four different doctors for a year now, and we haven’t found the cause of the issue. There are things I do to try and mitigate it, and I haven’t yet actually thrown up at work… but I’ve gotten close, and I live in fear of that happening. It’s a pretty miserable circumstance to be in.

        I’m still perfectly capable of doing my job, though, and I’d be mortified if someone went to my boss and/or HR to tell them I was very very sick. I’m an adult who can manage my own health, thank you, and just because this coworker is having severe symptoms doesn’t mean they’re not trying to treat them as best they can. The OP shouldn’t have to hear it, but they need to find a solution that doesn’t involve butting into their coworker’s medical business. (Which I think is exactly what they’re looking for, to be fair — it’s other people in this thread who are suggesting more invasive solutions.)

        1. blink14*

          Have any of your doctor’s looked into acid reflux/GERD? Hyperactive gag reflex can sometimes be linked to that.

          1. LizB*

            Yep, that’s one of the avenues we’re exploring. (It was the first thing Doctor Google suggested to me when this started happening, so I made sure we’re looking into it, lol!)

            1. blink14*

              Glad to hear it! I have GERD and I definitely have a more sensitive reflex in the morning (when my stomach is most empty). One of my cousins has silent GERD (showing no symptoms) and before it was diagnosed, she had a couple of choking/gagging incidents.

              Good luck!

    7. Empathetic*

      Chemo patient here that has to drag myself to work everyday so I don’t lose my insurance. I’m not going to speculate what your coworker is going through, but I will tell you, throwing up multiple times a day is hard and I would be mortified if someone went to HR instead of talking to me to see if we could come up with a solution/compromise. I recommend getting a white noise machine.

      1. Jaid*

        Out of curiosity, did you approach your coworkers first about it or did they come to you?

        I hope you doing better.

    8. Eeether Eyether*

      I think you are working with my former co-worker…turns out my former co-worker had a medical condition where once a month, after treatment, this would happen for several days. I could hear him vomiting in his office (my desk was was right outside of his office). It was awful and extremely distracting–others would come into our dept and wonder what the heck was going on. Can you try putting yourself in his place? He must be feeling, physically, pretty horrible and probably very self-conscious, assuming it’s a legit illness or side effects from treatment–like chemo. I wished he would stay home during these “bouts” but he preferred to be at work. A couple of times I asked my boss if he could send the co-worker home, but he really couldn’t. Can you use earbuds?

    9. Anono-me*

      It sounds like it would be helpful if your coworker kept his office door closed. Maybe you could suggest that to him.

      Music might also help muffle the sound, either in his office or at your desk.

  50. A. Lovelace*

    An article referenced in AAM earlier this week made me wonder about something I have been trying to research for some time with variable success:
    Does anyone have links to quantitative research (no anecdotal comments, please! I have a wealth of those…) about how employment equity groups (gender, people of colour / visible minorities, (dis)abilities) are affected differently in hiring and promotions? I would most appreciate examples in the STEM fields, although all fields are of interest.

    My focus is on the specific criteria of “demonstrating integrity and respect”, “thinking things through”, “working effectively with others”, and “showing initiative and being action oriented”, although different or more broad topics are welcome.

    This work will contribute to requests at my workplace for more equitable treatment when hiring and promoting. I have suggested that they make the process more anonymous, because that seems to be the best way of having both perception of and actual equity. This is in addition to supporting everyone’s work equitably, and we also need to be aware of biases in how evaluations are written up by managers before they are evaluated by senior management.
    In case you are curious, an article about orchestras and ‘blind’ auditions:
    https://www.theguardian.com/women-in-leadership/2013/oct/14/blind-auditions-orchestras-gender-bias

    I should note that I have had some success in finding articles, however there is a lot of articles which aren’t relevant or aren’t quantitative so I’m wondering if I am missing some really good ones. Note that I’m not expecting anyone to research this for me, as I am happy to do so myself! Yet if you happen to have any info and are willing to share then I would greatly appreciate it. Thanks in advance.

    3. medium of ballpoint*

      I’m not sure if this is exactly what you’re looking for, but here’s what five minutes of poking around archives could find:

      Now Hiring! Empirically Testing a Three-Step Intervention to Increase Faculty Gender Diversity in STEM: https://academic.oup.com/bioscience/article/65/11/1084/375413

      Recruiting and Hiring Women in STEM Fields: http://web.a.ebscohost.com/ehost/pdfviewer/pdfviewer?vid=1&sid=9c732e3e-952e-4c98-8026-ce4ff3896565%40sdc-v-sessmgr03

      Uneven Hiring and Pay: https://search.proquest.com/docview/1976016153?rfr_id=info%3Axri%2Fsid%3Aprimo

      Moving Beyond Metrics: A Primer for Hiring and Promoting a Diverse Workforce in Entomology and Other Natural Sciences: https://academic.oup.com/aesa/article/110/5/484/4103477

      Networks, Race, and Hiring: https://www.jstor.org/stable/30038975?seq=5#metadata_info_tab_contents

      Limitations on Diversity in Basic Scientific Departments: https://www.semanticscholar.org/paper/Limitations-on-diversity-in-basic-science-Leboy-Madden/4bafc08f901a19e3c29c7fe6fba03e3fb1ffcf2c#paper-header

  51. BRR*

    After being laid off a few weeks ago, I happily have an offer (pending background and reference checks). There are a lot of pluses like a much shorter commute, the team seems great, and it’s union (I like this, I know it’s not for everyone). The only thing is it’s a step down in responsibility, title, and pay. Any tips on coping with being forced to take a moderate step back in your career? I know I’m not locked in forever but with my career history I need to not let my bruised ego affect my performance and I will possibly have to be in the position awhile.

    1. Minocho*

      I had a situation similar to yours. I was promoted to a team lead position, and then fired. I found another job as a senior individual contributor. My boss was just promoted to the position.

      First, my boss is awesome. Not perfect, but good. I can trust him, he lets me know when I need to improve and when I’m doing well. He is supporting me even when I’m getting constructive criticism, and I trust his integrity. So of course, that takes a lot of the sting out of it.

      Second, I was up front with him about the fact that I had been in the position to lead previously, and it might take some adjustment. I also made sure to tell myself that I wasn’t perfect at my old job, I had a lot to learn, and I could use my previous experience (both in what to do and what not to do) to support my boss – I did this well enough that I’ve gotten a team leadership position back.

      I think having a stern conversation with myself and framing it as a chance to tackle things in a better way, build a good reputation here with the skills I learned from my previous company and position helped me avoid a lot of self-sabotage.

    2. SuperAnon*

      I guess… be supremely thankful to the employment goddesses that you found something so quickly, closer to home (more me time, yay!)?

    3. AvonLady Barksdale*

      I realize this is late, but I was away on Friday. Congrats to you on getting an offer so quickly!

      On the advice note, I often think I took a step back in my career, and it’s kind of hard. However, my last job was so awful I was happy for the lack of responsibility and that comforted me for the first 18 months or so. What you can remember is that there is always a lot to learn, no matter where you are, and there will always be trade-offs. You will get back on track quicker than you think.

    4. SunnyD*

      Be aware that being laid off itself can be quite an emotional bruise that can take months to work through, so keep an eye on how much of this feeling is that. But also, life expectancy is way up, and things often come back around eventually. As much as you can, delight – revel – in that short commute, and keep learning. This isn’t forever, it’s just now.

  52. baconeggandcheeseplz*

    I need some advice on resetting in between jobs. I got a new job (yay!) and my notice goes through next Friday. I start the new job on the following Monday, so I only really have the weekend to decompress, which isn’t a lot of time. I feel pretty burned out here and pretty meh towards my work (I get it done but I don’t feel like I’m on my game really). I don’t want to bring this feeling/mentality to the new job, partially because I’m excited about the work and etc. but I also want to get back to my old work ethic, if that makes sense. Does anyone have any strategies on how I can start re calibrating with the short amount of time I have in between? I’m already in therapy!

    1. Temperance*

      Can you just take the week to give yourself a break, like take yoga classes, meal prep, relax?

      1. baconeggandcheeseplz*

        Unfortunately no, but I should probably try to do some of those things after work next week and focus on those things in the first couple weeks when I’m still in the “training” phase and things haven’t ramped up yet.

        1. Ann, you perfect sunflower*

          That’s a good plan. The beginning weeks will be a great time to add some extra “self-care” and pay close attention to how you’re feeling and thinking about things. Full transition mode! Also, consider keeping the first few weekends clear if you can, too, for extra down time.

    2. Minerva McGonagall*

      I had a weekend between my old job and my new job, and lost time that weekend for family stuff, but the main thing I was focused on going from a toxic job to a new job was not bringing that energy with me. The day before I started I got my things all organized and picked out my clothes early in the day, packed my lunch, and made sure I had time to decompress and relax. Writing down my feelings really helped me during that transition period. I still feel like I’m guarding myself sometimes, and the big thing is to shut my brain down before it spirals into old habits of thinking. It is a process that’s hard to do, but the fact that you’re excited about the work is great and try to focus on that!

  53. No name*

    Big changes at work. The C-suite stepped in and let go some major execs, including the head of my department and the leader of about half the office, plus major leaders removed in HR.

    Rather than worry, I think it’s about time. The other half of the office had serious turnover and lost a ton of money in failed ability to provide services, and that basically rests on the shoulders of the two who were let go for their management failures. They were widely mistrusted and disliked by staff. An anonymous survey that was sent out by consultants turned into an outpouring of vitriol against those two.

    And HR is known for being unable to recruit, hire, and process employees fast enough anyway.

    So for now? Good riddance. In with the new. We’ll see what the future holds.

  54. Anon anony*

    Do you have to contact your previous employer for COBRA coverage? I did and they said that it should be sent out, but are they the ones that have to notify COBRA? My previous company’s HR is not the best/most competent, so I’m worried that I won’t get anything

    1. Ella P.*

      They should process it for you, yes. Typically you get the paperwork in the mail that you send back to them, with payment. I think they have 30 days to send it or you have 30 days to accept it, may want to google the timelines so you know.

      I once had a job NOT process it even though they cashed my check. It was awkward to call them up to follow up but I did and it was fixed right away. I don’t think companies can play with those sorts of things, even if they would want to. I’d just keep an eye on things. Good luck!

    2. Natalie*

      COBRA isn’t a separate organization unless you are a GI Joe. The benefits administrator for your previous employer will also administer your COBRA coverage, as you’ll simply continue to be on the previous employers health plan.

      Your employer has 30 days from the qualifying event to notify their plan administrator, and the plan administrator has 14 days to send you an election notice, so it can be some time before you actually receive the information. If you do elect for COBRA, it will be retroactive to the last day of your coverage, so if that’s part of your concern don’t worry about that.

      1. Natalie*

        Oh, and you’ll have 60 days to opt for coverage from the date of the notice and then an additional 45 days to pay. As long as you don’t decline coverage during that notice period and then change your mind and opt for it, it will be retroactive.

    3. CAA*

      If your employer uses an outside administrator (which pretty much everybody does), they have 30 days from the end of your employment to notify them. The administrator has 2 weeks to notify you. You then have 60 days to decide whether to elect the COBRA coverage, and it must be offered retroactively to the last day you were covered under the employer’s plan.

      So basically you should receive paperwork in the mail within 6 weeks of your last day of work. If it hasn’t been at least 5 weeks yet, then it’s too soon to worry. Lots of companies take the full amount of time allowed. Continue seeing your doctors as needed, but make sure you get a receipt for everything and save every piece of paper they give you.

      When you do get the paperwork, it’s o.k. to wait for the full 60 days to decide whether to take the coverage. If you don’t expect to see any doctors between the end of your previous coverage and when you get coverage from a new job, you can save a lot of money by not signing up for COBRA at all. If you do sign up at any time during the 60 day option period, then you must pay the premiums starting from your last day of employer coverage. E.g. if you go to a doctor on the 35th day of the option period, you can’t say “well I didn’t need medical care during the 6 weeks you took to notify me or during the first month of the option period, so I’m only paying for the current month.” In that scenario, you’d still have to pay the premiums for the entire time since your employment ended.

    4. A Day at the Zoo*

      They should automatically send you information about COBRA, but there are companies that are not strong in this area. Companies are allowed to suspend your coverage until they receive payment for the coverage, so while you have lots of time (as noted below) to make an election and then send in a check, you may not have coverage while the paperwork gets process. There is no harm in calling HR and asking about paperwork if you have physician appointments scheduled and want to make sure your coverage can be verified.

  55. Anax*

    What does a mentor do?

    My workplace has started up a mentorship program, and I… honestly have no idea. I’m a pretty new employee (4 months), so I’m probably theoretically in the right wheelhouse, but I’m not sure if it would actually be valuable for me.

    My work trajectory is already pretty set for the next few years, barring something crazy – I’m in IT, and my team wasn’t able to hire someone with the very specific skillset they need, so they’re training me into it. My job is very technical, without a lot of complicated work-related social situations to navigate, and I’m already being trained by the two people with this skillset in the company.

    Part of my hesitance is also that I have PTSD, and some social situations really freak me out. Effusively friendly and cheery people – the sort who are very common in HR and other social-oriented jobs – are objectively lovely, but they make me panic in person.

    We had an HR-wide development day on Wednesday – my team is IT but technically in the HR umbrella – and I had an anxiety attack worse than I’ve had in years, and had to go back to my desk to hyperventilate after two hours. I’m so exhausted from the panic that I’ve lost a day and a half of productivity.

    Loud, unpredictable, crowded social situations really freak me out, especially if they’re full of friendly people, and that makes traditional networking terrifying!

    (I did let my boss know about the situation, and he was entirely understanding, but god, nightmare scenario. No one seemed to notice the crying or shaking or squeaky breathing noises, but it was MORTIFYING. I’m getting a therapist and have a psychiatrist, but PTSD is… hard to conquer. Thx brain.)

    1. AnonToday*

      It depends on the program. A mentor can be helpful for career questions, but they can also be helpful if you are in a situation at your job and you just want to know, “What would a more experienced person do in this situation?” or if you are thinking, “Is this weird or is it just me?” I found my workplace mentor from the mentorship program at my work useful in that regard.

    2. Tango Foxtrot*

      My personal experience with mentoring, as someone with PTSD, was… not great. Initially it was helpful to have someone act as a sounding board for complicated work situations, but after he saw me have an attack, it quickly deteriorated into him attempting to “manage” my PTSD for me, and that’s an aspect of my life I’m perfectly capable of managing myself with the help of medical professionals. I’m not trying to deter you from using the program, but that was my personal experience.

    3. Jasnah*

      I’m sorry to hear you’re dealing with this.

      I’m not sure how your mentorship program connects to the HR development day. Your mentor would not necessarily be someone in HR, and would ideally be someone you can speak frankly with (so you could probably ask for a less bubbly mentor on those grounds). Ideally I think your mentor would be someone senior in IT who could teach you about the industry, or someone senior to you in a different field like operations where you could get to know the business side of your company and be more well-rounded/able to anticipate better. They could also connect you with other people in the company around your age/seniority level who you could learn from.

      Either way I don’t think the mentorship should trigger your PTSD because it’s usually one on one, and you could be matched with someone chill!

  56. Toxic waste*

    I just started my new job and it’s been 4 days. When I started, they kept commenting on how quiet I was. They would then look at me and whisper. One person swears and seems stressed. The others seem stressed/busy. My boss is nice at times, but seems stressed out or preoccupied. She says that she’s happy that I’m there, but I can’t tell if she’s just saying it. I overheard her talking to someone about, “If she doesn’t know the answer,she forwards it to me.” I don’t think it’s about me (I’ve never done that.), but I’m nervous that they don’t like me.

    Is this yet another toxic job? Or is it too soon to tell? How do you know if you’re doing a good job so far?

    1. Ella P.*

      Since you are saying ‘yet another toxic job’ I assume your previous job may have been a negative working environment. It may take time to shake that off and you may want to be mindful not to bring that to your new job, as much as you’re able.

      At the end of week 1, why not ask your manager for a check in? Ask how you are doing so far. Is there any feedback that she’d like to give you at this point? And also take the time to let them know you are happy to be there and be a part of the team, if you feel comfortable saying so.

      Normal to feel nervous, it’s only been a few days! Human to have some baggage from other places, especially if they were toxic. All you can do is your best, give it time… and breathe :)

      1. Minocho*

        This struck me too. I’ve been in toxic jobs, and it’s almost like slowly sweating toxins out of your system, only this system is your psyche instead of your body. It can be really hard to do when you’re coming out of a toxic job situation, but try your best to assume positive intent at your new place – even if it has to be a bit forced, a positive outlook can help you get past some patterns or habits you don’t want anymore.

        Definitely check in with your boss. If you can, maybe even touch on the fact that you’re coming out of a tough job situation and may have some “funny things I’m a little sensitive to”…if you can manage it, the heads up for the manager can help them understand your situation and tailor their approach appropriately.

    2. Frank Doyle*

      It is DEFINITELY too soon to tell, you’ve been there less than a week! Just keep on keepin’ on. And I do that thing too, where if I hear people talking or laughing I assume they are talking or laughing about me. But it’s usually not true! I’d give people the benefit of the doubt until you’ve been there a couple months at least.

  57. Ryan Howard’s White Suit*

    I just need a place to offload some anxiety.

    I was laid off in October from an organization I’d been a part of for almost 4 years. The lay-off made sense and I’d been wanting to leave the organization for some time, so while I was worried about next steps I wasn’t devastated. The first person I reached out to was a contact I’d done some work for, and it ended up that they needed someone to do work for which I was well-suited. I didn’t have to go through any process and was hired making the same salary I had at the previous job.

    I found out recently that my boss is leaving for an amazing opportunity, which means when they leave I’m done, since all my work was under them. I have two possibilities for other jobs, but now I’m at a low point about whether either will work out, and then what my prospects are if they don’t. I have very specific experience in a specific field that makes jobs outside coastal areas extremely hard to come by. I can only hope something works out, because moving right now isn’t an option.

    1. Not your Dad's Recruiter*

      First, your boss’s moving on does not necessarily mean “you are done” – presumably, the company still needs what you do to be done.
      Second – is asking your leaving boss for a job at his new company an option?

  58. Really Despising The Workplace*

    How do you deal with co-workers who routinely violate a front of the house policy (cell phone usage, gum chewing) yet NEVER get in trouble for it? It wouldn’t matter except the little crap affects our schedules for the upcoming year.

    Petty? Probably. But I got nailed for not putting a chair back in (thus affecting my schedule), while the top 5 people in the company can’t stop smacking their bubbles.

    1. LawBee*

      I need context – how does chewing gum impact your work schedule? Or not pushing in a chair?

      (But probably the answer is to just let it go.)

      1. Anax*

        It sounds like Really works in a restaurant, and employees’ hours are based on performance – so if someone gets in trouble, functionally, their salary for next year is reduced or they need to work at less-desirable times.

        (And chewing gum does sound a bit outputting for a waiter or other customer-facing food service role!)

      2. Really Despising The Workplace*

        Context:

        I work at a 5 star hotel that does a forced ranking every year. Some of the absolute no-nos on the main floor are gum chewing and looking at your phone/having one on you. They also dock you on your performance evaluation if you are caught not pushing a chair in at a table you walk by.

        If a supervisor sees you not push a chair in, they will remind you or do it themselves. If a manager sees you not doing it, it’s a PIP.

        Three of the top 5 people the past few years in the forced ranking consistently check their phone while they have no guests to attend to on the main floor or chew gum the portion of their shift before their break. When being sent on break, they will throw their gum out in the trash on the main floor, not even caring to do it once they get backstage where no one can see. When asked, they always say it’s a cough drop to where I wonder: “You throw a lot of cough drops away that you can’t swallow?”

        I was put on a PIP for not pushing a chair in. I owned my mistake. So be it. It will affect my evaluation and my schedule pick for next year. Yup, all because of a chair I missed.

        My issue is with the top people absolutely getting away with the no-no’s of the gum chewing (my biggest pet peeve) and the cell phone viewing. Every supervisor knows these people do it but don’t want them to get in trouble, as well as me when l miss a chair.

        The problem is, it’s easier for a manager to see me not pushing in a chair vs. someone hiding their gum. And while I sound like: “Well, HE’S doing it and you never say anything” I took my PIP and owned it. Now, others who should have been fired by their seventh phone infraction have and will never get nailed.

        I REALLY wouldn’t care except that alllll these things matter. I got nailed for it and will now lose my days off in the coming year. The #1 and #3 person the past three years in the company have smacked their Juicy Fruit and checked their text messages forever, and have NEVER been nailed for it. I can prove this because this week they were announced as #1 and #3 again.

        So I am ticked. It is one of those “I was nailed but nobody else is.” The problem is they are #1 and #3, and EVERYONE knows the rule they break. A supervisor doesn’t want to be the reason they lose their position, or mine. But a manager has never seen or done anything about it.

        And yes, it is that prevalent with the top ones who have done it to where the forced ranking creates resentment. “Hell, I should chew gum too and be #1!”

        1. Gumby*

          This is absolutely, 100% not fair.

          It is also absolutely, 100% not something you can do anything about.

          General advice would be to focus on stuff you can control. Though I would encourage you to keep an eye out for other jobs as well because that policy sounds miserable. A PIP for not pushing in a chair?

          1. valentine*

            Your colleagues are not the enemy. It’s natural to push back on such unnecessary strictness. Your situation is not sustainable. I don’t imagine there’s anyone you can speak to about the hit to your morale, and getting your colleagues in trouble because misery loves company wouldn’t be a good outcome. Either the BS is an acceptable tax on whatever positives there are or you’re going to start job searching, especially if you’re saying you won’t have any days off next year. They shouldn’t be punishing you, much less with loss of compensation.

  59. BetsyTacy*

    It happened. I’m actually starting the official process with the staffer who I inherited.

    This person has had major (what I view as termination-worthy) issues for 20 years but nobody has been willing to address them.

    3. Not Today Satan*

      Everyone will appreciate it. My company has a ton of long time, incompetent workers that people seem unwilling to fire, and it’s really demoralizing to the high performers.

  60. TomCat*

    During a phone screen interview I was recently part of, the candidate asked about the position’s salary during the “do you have any questions?” segment at the end of the interview. The hiring manager told him that they would discuss it at the offer stage. As we were discussing candidates after the phone call ended, the other members of the committee said it was presumptive and out of line for him to ask about the salary at that stage. AAM community, am I crazy to think that the candidate was not only in his rights to ask about salary, but that it showed he was seriously thinking through the job from all angles, which should work in his favor?
    For the record, my company does not post salary information in the job ad or anywhere else and we do not ask candidates to tell us their current salary.

    1. Ella P.*

      I hate this thinking, to keep the salary information a secret. I once went through a lengthy process, about 5 years ago, to end up being given an offer so low the office manager hesitated to make it and wouldn’t pass it over the table to me.

      Why waste people’s time and play games? I plan to be upfront when I start job searching again and if someone holds it against me, then it’s likely not the kind of place I want to be working. My days of settling are over at this point.

      Sorry your committee not only didn’t provide the information requested but seemed very judgmental about a simple question which is really crucial to making a decision on any job offer. I wonder if it wasn’t a red flag to your candidate about the company…

      1. Elizabeth West*

        I feel this way too, especially when I’m talking to someone in BiggerCity. I phrase it thus:

        Them: “Do you have any questions?”

        Me: (if they haven’t brought it up already—innocuous questions first, then): “Because I’d be moving if you selected me, would it be possible for you to give me an idea of the salary range you’ve set for the position?”

        Sometimes they answer me and sometimes they don’t. If they don’t, I’m gonna assume it’s absurdly low, and when they inevitably ask, “What are you looking for?” then I give them a range.

        But I shouldn’t have to dance this dance. I hate it with a passion. Just tell me what you’d like to pay the person you hire!

      2. Fortitude Jones*

        Why waste people’s time and play games? I plan to be upfront when I start job searching again and if someone holds it against me, then it’s likely not the kind of place I want to be working. My days of settling are over at this point.

        Same. People with options would walk away from this when the basic question of salary was pushed off to “the offer stage” – how would we even get to that place if I don’t know what you pay?! As a job seeker, if a hiring manager or HR recruiter skirted my question like this, I would assume the pay is below market.

    2. Fiberpunk*

      It’s so obnoxious to hide salary. It can almost feel like entrapment; they’ll make you jump through a bunch of hoops, get your hopes up with multiple interviews and writing samples and presentations, you’re excited at the prospect and you feel like you know them, but then at the end you’ll find out that you’d need to move into your mom’s basement to afford to work there.

      I think the whole idea of salary being withheld from job-seekers, that’s it’s presumptuous to ask, is just a power trip from extremely unpleasant people who know they aren’t competitive.

    3. Not Today Satan*

      Isn’t the whole point of a phone screen to make sure the basics of the job fit for the candidate and vice versa? What if their requirement is twice as high as the budgeted salary? Ridiculous.

    4. CatCat*

      The candidate is looking to avoid wasting literally everyone’s time.

      One could say that the members of the committee were presumptive and out of line if they expect the candidate to continue with the process without this key piece of information.

    5. Anonymous Educator*

      It’s not presumptive or out of line at all to ask about salary. I had an interviewer ask me my desired salary range during a phone screen, and I didn’t consider that presumptive or out of line. I also had another interviewer volunteer the salary during a phone screen. That also wasn’t out of line. Not talking about salary during the interview process is a great way to waste everybody’s time.

      The only situation in which it’s okay for an employer to shut down salary talk during the interview stage is to say “Don’t worry about salary. We have a virtually unlimited budget for this position, so we won’t be low-balling you.”

    6. Frank Doyle*

      The salary range should DEFINITELY be part of the discussion by now. As someone said above, he’s trying to avoid wasting everyone’s time.

    7. CupcakeCounter*

      your company is out of line – why waste their time and the candidates time if you are way off with no chance of being able to meet at a number that will work for everyone? Don’t have to give exact salary, just give a range with the typical caveats such as “range is between X and Y depending on skillset, experience, etc…”. If your company is thinking $50k and the candidate is looking for $75K spending hours on phone and in person interviews is such as waste!
      I won’t even agree to a phone interview without knowing the range. If they refuse, I say no.

      I will say good for them for not asking about salary history

    8. SuperAnon*

      You’re going to lose a lot of good candidates by not discussing salary range. If I don’t know what the range is, peace out. No time for games.

      1. SuperAnon*

        Also, how is it presumptuous? These are major life decisions you’re asking people to consider but you’re withholding the most important criteria.

    9. The New Wanderer*

      Presumptive and out of line to know about the salary before committing potentially hours more time to the process? Does your company push “passion” over compensation? It’s completely reasonable to clarify during the phone screen and most of the companies I’ve talked to do so, either by asking me my expectations or, rarely, offering a range when asked, and confirming whether we’re on the same page. To refuse to do so and worse, judge someone for asking, does not speak well of your company.

    10. Lemmy Caution*

      I generally won’t even apply for jobs salary not given or ”competitive”, as they generally will be crap with legal minimum requirements touted as ”benefits”. And with crap I mean even lower than with ”institutional” salaries that are crap but with those at least you get your institutional benefits that sometimes surpass the salary.

      Though I can understand why they would be keeped secret, as if you advertise for a teapot kettle whistle tuner at 30K, and a whistle tuner been on the job for 5 years and just got a raise to 27K sees it and goes totally off key…

      But yeah, sounds like the management is having a child auction.

  61. MarfisaTheLibrarian*

    As I huddle under a blanket in front of a space heater, under an out-of-control AC vent, I ask:
    AAM Commentariat, what are your favorite ways to stay warm when you’re in public-facing positions? I’m pushing it a little with the “blanket” (it’s sort of half-way between a blanket and a shawl–I fold it in half to make it shawl-sized), and I feel like I look like a granny a little (though, hey, I’ve already owned the librarian stereotype: my hair lives in a bun, and I wear a lot of cardigans, and I have a glasses chain, so maybe a heavy blanket-shawl isn’t so out there). Favorite subtle underlayers, fashionable outer-layers, discreet warm things?

    On one of the posts this week, people talked about the disposable stick-on heating pads, but I feel guilty using those when I’m cold every day. And ideally something subtler than a hot water bottle (plus I don’t have access to a microwave or hot water, and if I plug anything into our horrific chain of extension cords and surge protectors, I’ll end up force shutting down everyone’s computers).

    1. Casual Librarian*

      Actual librarian, here :)

      I keep a heavy knit sweater on the back of my chair. It’s actually pretty fashionable, and I can wrap it up all around me just like a blanket…but nobody can complain because it’s actually a sweater.
      Keep wool socks just for work (so you don’t have to wear them out in the summer heat).
      Fashion scarves aren’t super out-of-style yet. You can wear those in the summer without anyone saying anything
      Hot tea (again, librarian stereotype)
      Rechargable hand warmer like this one: https://amzn.to/2IeJzgt

      1. Metameta*

        Fellow librarian here! I also have a designated work coat, it’s a North Face cardigan-coat hybrid thing that isn’t outdoors material so it passes inside as a cardi and fits like a coat so it goes over other sweaters. I also love uniqlo heattech underlayers. Lots of hot tea and my cubicle came with a footrest that plugs in and heats up (I love it and have it running now in June).

        When I worked with the public I had a pair of fingerless compression gloves that I wore to help keep my hands warm (I deal with Reynauds Phenomenon so once I get cold in my extremities it takes an eon to warm back up)

    2. Hope*

      Hot drinks, if that’s an option (though for you it sounds like it isn’t). Blanket over my legs if the space under the desk isn’t visible. Thick socks. Scarf/pashmina. Leggings under pants. Camis or tight t-shirts under normal shirts. Also, getting up and walking around (or even just standing if you can’t leave your post) can help more than you’d think.

    3. Casual Librarian*

      Actual librarian, here :)

      I keep a heavy knit sweater on the back of my chair. It’s long enough that it covers my bum and I can wrap it around me like a blanket. It’s fashionable and I get a lot of compliments on it, but it’s definitely a winter item that I can pass off in the office
      Fashion scarves are not totally out-of-style and they help keep in some warmth
      Wool socks. You can keep a pair at work so you don’t have to wear them out in the summer heat
      Rechargeable hand warmer like this one: https://amzn.to/2IeJzgt
      Warm beverages like coffee, tea, or even hot water with lemon (my fave)

    4. Librarian*

      I wear the long-sleeved cuddl-dud shirts all year long under my usual businesswear . It’ll be 80F outside and I’ve got my cuddl-duds on. They’re thin layers, but very warm, and unnoticeable under a cardigan or jacket. Unfortunately, cuddl-duds are only sold in the fall but they usually have some pretty good sales during that time that you can stock up to last year-round. (I also have the pants too, but those are mostly worn in the winter. The fleece cuddl-duds saved me many times this past winter!)

    5. TomCat*

      USB mug warmer. It won’t boil water, but it’ll keep a hot beverage hot for a long time and doesn’t overload an outlet. There may also be other USB devices that could help, like a heating pad.

      1. Rainy*

        I have a pair of USB slippers and they actually work really well for warming the feet. They were a xmas gift from my bff, and the year I got them I was living in a house that the furnace would break frequently, so I’d wake up and it would be 52-53° in the house.

    6. Admin of Sys*

      Assuming you can get away with the optics of a lap blanket, they make ones that are usb heated, so they get power from the computer rather than the powerstrips.
      There’s also usb heated mousebads, where you put your mouse hand in a fleece cave that a friend in a frigid office swears by.
      Otherwise, consider looking for nicer REI insulated / cold weather tops or longjohns? They tend to be light weight but seriously warm, though they’re also often expensive as heck.

    7. L.S. Cooper*

      Depending on how permanent of layering you want, a pair of leggings and/or a pair of tights underneath your pants adds a lot of extra insulation!

    8. Mari M*

      Always cold. Live in opaque tights, will bust out the fleece-lined pairs even in summer if I have to. If I’m wearing a long enough skirt I can also chuck a petticoat in there. I have a small enough bust that turtlenecks actually look great on me — don’t know what you can get away with in that vein — and of course scarves are perfect year-round if they’re decorative enough.

      Would your workplace frown on a soft knit cap, a slouchy one that looks like a cross between a beret and a snood? When you’re keeping your head warm, the rest of you benefits.

      Much sympathy: at TerribleJob, I survived by wearing an actual double-layered fleece cloak. With hood. Fortunately it wasn’t a client-facing job…

    9. Anax*

      Honestly, in your situation, I’d go for a knit wool cardigan with a fairly wind-resistant shawl on top. Knits trap warm air against your body, which is a great insulator – but they’re awful at keeping out the breeze, and it sounds like that’s your biggest problem.

      If it’s in your budget, animal fibers like wool and silk are generally better for insulation. Plastic-based fibers usually don’t breathe well and their insulation can vary; plant-based fibers usually aren’t warm. And if you’re anything like me, most of what you own is cotton or some kind of plastic.

      You can also get a Contigo or similar water bottle to put warm beverages in – they actually do stay warm all day, they’re fairly inexpensive, and one or two would probably hold your drinks for the day.

    10. Elizabeth West*

      Cardigan. If it’s really cold, I also wear fingerless gloves. Sometimes I just wear the drugstore compression gloves; they keep my hands from cramping up if I’m typing a lot and also keep them warm. At Exjob, I had a semblance of privacy in a cube, so I had a blanket and a mug warmer for tea.

      Once at OldExjob, it was bitterly cold out and my station near the front door kept receiving blasts of frigid air every time someone came in or out. So I just wore my farmer coveralls all day. Nobody but the Fed Ex dude and the mail carrier saw me and Boss didn’t say anything.

    11. fluffy*

      I loved my knitted silk underwear–no bulk, available in a variety of sleeve lengths and necklines, and felt great against my skin. I think mine came from Eddie Bauer, but the current LL Bean site sells similar stuff.
      And if your electrical situation is so bad you can’t use a microwave or an electric kettle, is it worth seeing if safety regulations are being followed.

      1. SpringIsForPlanting!*

        Silk long underwear is the greatest! Fits right under my work clothes, feels luxurious, keeps me cozy.

    12. ghostwriter*

      Heating pads – the kind you wear when you’re PMSing – have worked wonders for me.

    13. MissKatie*

      You said you have a space heater plugged in, why not try swapping it out for a heating pad? I feel like they are great because you can move the focus area and I feel like they are safer.

      1. zora*

        Seconding this. My heating pad uses a lot less power than the space heater, and it provides more direct heat exchange so I get warmer much faster. I just use one of the $12 ones you get at a pharmacy.

    14. Miss Pantalones en Fuego*

      How about a neutral colored puffy vest under a sweater or jacket? I’ve seen lots of people in London wear them under their suit jackets in the fall and they are fairly unobtrusive but provide a bit of warmth (and wind protection).

    15. Policy wonk*

      One of our conference rooms is always freezing. One of my colleagues wears a fleece vest under his suit jacket when we meet in there. It’s black, fitted, and works in a professional setting.

    16. Anono-me*

      You can get electric lap blankets that function just like an electric blanket on your bed, but are smaller.

      If there’s a Menards near you, they typically have a winter wool sock with battery-powered electric warmers.

      There are nondisposable gel type hand warmers that are chemically activated, and you have to boil them after you activate them to reset them.

    17. rear mech*

      subtle-ish? – a headband… that sits over 50%+ of your ears, and is lined with fleece, or made with a thick non-itchy wool fabric or yarn. Having warm ears makes me feel disproportionately warm!

    18. StrangeBird*

      Are you sure the space heater isn’t making it worse? I know an office where they were using a heater, and because it was below one of the sensors for the AC, it created a vicious loop where the AC was working harder and harder, and they kept turning the heater up…

  62. Trying*

    It feels like my boss and I aren’t speaking the same language. When we try to talk about things I feel like he doesn’t understand what I’m trying to say and sometimes talks over me. I end up getting super frustrated. And I’ve gotten mad a few times which I know is super bad and unprofessional.

    Any advice?

    1. Ella P.*

      I have similar issues with my boss when we are face to face – does email help at all/is that an option? It can be handy to then have things in writing, to refer back to if discussions were unclear. Good luck!

    3. The New Wanderer*

      I had that problem for a while with someone very senior to me, though not a direct manager. I finally has to ask a colleague if they could help “translate” (after the fact, not as a live interpreter!) because I felt like we were agreeing and he would respond like he said something totally different than what I said. Basically the colleague’s role was both to help me process what the senior person was saying and also understand how the way I phrased things might lead to misunderstanding. Not because I was misspeaking, but because work jargon differs from workplace to workplace.

      Is there someone at work that you can do a reality check with? Get a sense of whether the boss is just like that or whether there’s something in the way you both communicate that is missing the mark?

      Alternate suggestion: if it makes sense, put everything you want to talk about in the meeting into a few bullet points. Send those to him just before the meeting for review or attach to the meeting notice. It might help clarify for him what you want to cover and he might find it easier to process the conversation.

  63. grayber*

    How much should you be expected to manage your manager? I’ve been at a position for ~6 months and my direct supervisor forgets to send emails with project feedback, works when she’s sick and then makes mistakes that trickle down to me, doesn’t understand aspects of my job that I then have to coach her on, and in general just doesn’t pay attention to things. For example, a few weeks ago she asked me to get something printed, and when I delivered the final product this week she expressed confusion about why it had been done. She asked me to do it and totally forgot, and now she’s very huffy– apparently we’re re-doing aspects of the project that mean the things I got printed will be totally unusable. She only told me about this re-do yesterday! Should I be sending her emails about everything and questioning every request she makes just in case?

    1. Wishing You Well*

      Emailing her more sounds like the right thing to do. You need to start documenting – just in case.
      I wouldn’t question every request, though. You might worsen your relationship with her.
      I hope it gets better for you.

    2. TheOtherLiz*

      If you have Alison’s book Managing to Change the World, I recommend using the check-in template in there – have a written check in agenda that you create before your regular checkins with your manager. It has room for priority items, lower priority items, discussions you need to have, backburner……….That way you can show them in writing what you think your priorities are for the week, get confirmation you’re right, update her on your progress on assignments she’s given you MIDWAY (rather than when you’ve completed something). Also, as a manager myself with a poor short-term memory, the written and emailed to me check-in agendas help ME remember what my direct reports are up to, when they’ve promised me things, so I don’t make mistakes I made early in managing, like assigning something and then totally forgetting about it.

      I really sympathize with you on the areas where you never get feedback or have to clean up her mistakes, which I have dealt with in managers past.

  64. The other Louis*

    I teach at a university, and so write a lot of letters of recommendation. I have several ex-students asking me to write a LinkedIn letter of rec, and I’m really hesitant. I’m accustomed writing letters for specific purposes (academic jobs, grad school, scholarships), and I’m not entirely clear what I would say in a generic one, especially as a teacher. I’m also not clear why any potential employer would care what I have to say, since it would be generic, and it isn’t confidential.

    What’s the take on those letters in the AAM community?

    1. Psyche*

      If you don’t see the value in the letters (and I don’t either) you can tell students that you will not write generic, non-confidential letters of recommendation. I had several professors put their policies on letters of recommendation in the syllabus so that they didn’t have to have individual conversations about it.

    2. Anonymous Educator*

      I don’t think it’s wrong of them to ask, but you certainly don’t need to agree to do it. They’re asking you a favor, and you don’t need to grant that favor. If you want to stick to the kinds of recs that would absolutely need to come from a professor, you’re well within your rights.

      1. The other Louis*

        Well, if it would significantly help them on the job market, I’d do it, but I just don’t see how it could. Am I missing something here?

        1. SuperAnon*

          I don’t think so. What could you say? “She studied really hard”?

          Maybe drum up a one-liner explaining that you only ask for a reco if you’ve worked with the person.

    3. Samwise*

      I have been in academia forever and have written hundreds of rec letters. I will not write a letter to post on LinkedIn or any other public venue. In fact, if the letter is for say a graduate program or scholarship or internship or similar, I will ask the student to sign the form waiving their right to see the letter. (I almost always send the student a copy of the letter, though).
      Public letters like those on LI are pretty worthless in my view — They never seem to have any honest assessment of areas for improvement, and of necessity they can’t be specific to the position or opportunity the student is applying for.

    4. Reliquary*

      I’m also a professor, and I decline to have anything to do with LinkedIn.

      I tell my students that I am happy to write tailored letters for specific purposes, but that I am not comfortable with providing the kinds of generic references used on LinkedIn.

  65. Mimmy*

    Looking for AAMers who have participated in professional listservs, especially those on Google.

    I recently joined the state chapter of a professional association as a way to network and get insights on a field I am hoping to break into. They have a listserv which is hosted on Google Groups. I can get emails of postings to the listserv, but I cannot actually view the group online. I have been in contact with the administrator but they haven’t gotten back to me yet.

    I get the sense that being on Google Groups is new for this group, so it’s possible that there are still glitches. I think the group is technically private because it does not come up in a search on Google Groups (despite their instructions for searching for said group!) and when I try to view the group, it says it’s private and takes me to an institution-specific log-in screen. Also, I am using my personal Google account and personal email because I’m leery about appearing as if I’m representing my employer since this group is not related to my current job.

    I know only the administrator can help me, but I was just curious if anyone has encountered similar issues with professional listservs–there must be something I’m overlooking. Other insights, both good and bad, would be helpful too.

  66. Anon4Q*

    I guess my question isn’t going to make it into an AAM post, so I’ll ask here.

    TL;DR: I have a skill that can be used for great evil; should I put it on my resume?

    The letter went:

    I’m a mid-career professional, currently pretty comfortable where I am, but trying to keep an eye out for a chance to advance or do something new and interesting that might pay better. I have a dilemma about whether or not to include something on my resume.

    A few years ago, I had a chance to work with a technology that’s now the Next Big Thing in my industry. Because it wasn’t a big deal last time I was actively job-searching, I didn’t specifically mention it in my resume at the time. Seems like a slam-dunk that I should add it for all the doors it would open, right?

    Well, this technology also comes with ethical and practical issues that my industry isn’t used to grappling with. I feel it was used in an entirely appropriate manner at the job where I encountered it, but I have big problems with a lot of the uses it’s being touted for now. So I expect that if I did put this on my resume, a lot of the places that might be interested in me for that specific reason would be places I wouldn’t want to work. (This is something that I could check for even in a very vague high-level interview discussion. If they say, “We use this technology for X,” I could ask, “What do you do about obvious general issue Y?” and if they claim it’s not an issue or otherwise try to hand-wave it, then they fail.)

    My current workplace also has people who are enthusiastic about this technology. In the next few years, there’s likely to be a leadership change which will put one of the most enthusiastic people in a position to push hard for adopting it. I’ve tried to bring up some of the issues with it when my co-workers start enthusing about it, but I’ve been thanked politely for my advice and then it’s been ignored. If this technology is brought into my workplace with a disregard for its potential problems, I would absolutely leave, no matter how much I otherwise like the job.

    My choices seem to be: set myself up to nope out of a lot of interviews by mentioning my experience, possibly disadvantage myself by not mentioning it, or plan to sit tight but with a strong risk of eventually being forced into a more urgent job search at some point in the future. What do you recommend?

    1. Just Elle*

      Put it on your resume. Nope out of interviews. Its way better to have all the extra opportunities and ‘waste’ a bit of time rejecting them, than it is to miss out on a job that you’d potentially rather have. Worst case, nope on out of every single job for the next year because they’re not quite better than current job.

    2. Librarian*

      I like your idea – put it on the resume, make it clear and obvious that you used it for good, and turn it into a discussion point in the interview when you get that far. That seems the fairest way to acknowledge your skill. Just be sure to do your homework on all the bites you get.

    3. Interplanet Janet*

      If it’s a skill you generally don’t think is something you would want to be hired to use, I would leave it off your resume. (Real life example: My husband was a sniper in the Gulf War. A very, very good one. He …. would not like that to be include in his career opportunities, so even though he was decorated for it, he doesn’t come anywhere near his resume with it.)

      Also not knowing what this technology is is going to niggle at my brain ALL DAY. :D

      2. Zweisatz*

        Drones, image recognition, voice commands, facial recognition, some kind of AI. There’s a lot of options.

  67. Recession grad job transition success story*

    Just wanted to share my career trajectory since I got my master’s to provide some encouragement to people in fields or jobs that they hate.

    2008: Graduated college, started a job at $27,000/year
    2009: Laid off
    2010: Entered a master’s program partially because there were just no jobs at all, received M.A. in humanities field in 2012.
    2013: Got a job as a compliance assistant at a foreclosure firm. I hated the industry, but I started learning Excel and a ton about mortgage regulations. Started at $12/hour and ended at $15/hour with an Analyst title. Quit without a job lined up Christmas 2014 because foreclosure was getting to me.
    2015: Got a job as a foreclosure intervention counselor at a housing nonprofit. Received 2 promotions in 3 years, landing in the program evaluation department. Asked the data manager to teach me SQL and more Excel and discovered a passion for data analysis. I quit without a job lined up last spring because of instability at the org. My salary there started at $37,000 and ended at $52,000.
    Summer 2018: Did contract evaluation work
    Sept 2019: Hired as a data manager at another nonprofit at $60,000. I love the mission and my job!

    So… it’s been a long and winding road, but I’ve been able to make some successful pivots! My biggest advice pieces of advice are to first, find out who’s influential at your employer, and make a good impression on them. “Influential” and “high on the org chart” are often not synonymous. Who has the ear of decision makers? And second, volunteer for every task you’re interested in, if possible. Pitch ideas to managers. Shape your job to the job you want it to be. Obviously, there are limits to that, and some jobs have minimal freedom at all. But if you do have some wiggle room, learn as much as you can about the stuff you want to do.

    Good luck. Being in a job you hate is super demoralizing, so I feel your pain if you’re in that situation.

    2. Frosty Friday*

      Thanks for sharing! I’m only one year ahead of you, timing wise, so this was interesting. Here’s my trajectory:

      2007: Graduated college, started “dream job” with policy nonprofit where I’d interned for free the summer before, salary $22,000.
      2008: Quit the overworking, underpaying job due to burnout; moved back home, juggled service jobs and campaign work in the election, applied to grad school (same reasoning as you)
      2009: Moved for unpaid internship that followed campaign; for the next two years juggled internships, service jobs, and full time grad school (Masters in humanities as well).
      2011: Finished grad school and couldn’t find a job for 6 months
      2012: Took government contractor job I was overqualified for, but first in my field I was offered, at $42,000.
      2013: Government sequester was threatening my job, so I left for nonprofit gig; pay cut with a salary of $40,000. I learned a lot, liked the work, but just like with the government contracting, the funding was uncertain and I got sick of spending half my time on grant writing.
      2015: Left for different nonprofit – salary $55,000. I’ve been promoted once, now make $63,000. But if they had cared at all about my Master’s degree, OR if I had skipped grad school and been working full time from 2009-2011, I’d be earning more.
      Now: Considering career change to something that would mean owning my own small business, giving up current salary level, and taking huge risk generally. The recession, and the sequester, were major life changing events for me; grad school did NOT result in greater hirability or a pay bump (and in fact it lowered my salary trajectory); but ultimately the career shift is more about dissatisfaction with the standard 9 to 5 and the nonprofit world, where we try and make a good living while also trying to change the world during that 9 to 5.

      My biggest advice: thoroughly interview people who have the job you think you want – ask them if the next steps you’re considering are worth the time and investment. Ask them if they’d do it all over again. Ask them what they think about the system they work in – not just their organization, but the industry. And friends, don’t go to grad school unless you become convinced by people who are doing what you want to do that you NEED the degree to move forward. Unless you’ve got money to burn and just really love to learn I guess.

    3. Tris Prior*

      Hmmmmm! My partner is at a foreclosure firm and hates it – I have no idea how he’s stayed there so long without going insane, and he’s in one of those minimal-freedom roles – but is unsure what to do next other than, “something that helps people.” I did not know foreclosure intervention counselor was a thing, but that might be a good next step for him. Thank you for sharing!

      If you don’t mind me asking, did you have a hard time convincing people in your interviews that you wanted to use your skills for good and not evil? He fears he has a stigma due to working in foreclosure for so long (he mainly stayed for the EXCELLENT benefits that we both desperately needed at the time).

      1. Fortitude Jones*

        I worked at a foreclosure law firm (the banks were our clients) for nearly three years (and I had garbage pay and benefits, but it was something and I needed a job) – I didn’t have a problem getting a new job. I ended up becoming a claims adjuster for four years, and I loved it, though the burnout was real, which was ultimately why I left. But contrary to what some people might think, claims people help people, lol. It made me happy when I could call someone up who had suffered a loss and tell them that I could write them a check, even if it was a small one, to help them get back on their feet. There were a lot of hard conversations too, death, you name it, but overall, it was a challenging and fulfilling job that helped me expand my skill set (and grow my empathy), so I think your partner will be fine.

  68. Close to Unemployed*

    I need advice. I’m working in government, in a 3-year position that is ending in a month. My position was considered extremely likely to be renewed until quite recently, but it’s not going to happen. I have some great achievements from this time, and stellar references from my supervisor & above. I’ll find something, though what I do is very specialized.

    I’m interviewing soon for a job that’s exactly what I’d like to do, and is also in government. Hiring moves slowly, sometimes, around here. My dilemma: If my job ends before I get another one, I lose the 100+ hours of sick & 100 hours of vacation that are currently in my account, AND I have to renegotiate my leave accrual from scratch again (it was a long and kind of tiring negotiation last time, with no guarantee they won’t start me at 0 this time).

    Is there any way to tell the hiring supervisor that if she wants me, it would be extremely beneficial to me to have a start date before my last day at my current position? Is that just too pushy? It puts me in such a better position if I can make it work. Is there a way I can ask without sounding presumptuous?

    1. Metameta*

      I honestly would not ask unless you get an offer, and at the time of offer I’d inquire about their goal timeline for the start date. See how close it is to what you want, and decide if it’s close enough to worth explaining your situation. In my experience in academia (similar to government with hiring timelines) this is really not something they have much power to change, unfortunately. It’s much more dictated by the fiscal year, orientation dates, pay periods, and paperwork approval, all of which are different departments and can gum up any autonomy the hiring manager might have.. In fact, with the exception of one job where a start date was chosen six weeks out, I’ve overwhelmingly had start dates delayed more often than not.

      1. Close to Unemployed*

        In my part of government, they’ve really front-loaded that sort of thing and while it may take months for HR to allow a position to be posted, at that point the hiring manager will have discretion to move at their own speed. (I’ve seen people hired within a week of a job posting closing date, if the supervisor wants, and start date was only limited by their need to give notice). As a culture, though, they just don’t move quickly. This closed 5/20 and they’re just beginning to set up interviews.

        And I understand what you’re saying about waiting for an offer. I really do. I just keep thinking, though, that if my current supervisor was hiring I know she would jump through hoops to try to help the person she wanted, to give them a better base from which to tackle this job.

        I appreciate your thoughts in this!

    2. Another government worker*

      Are you 100% sure this is the policy? My experience (with substantial breaks between jobs in the same agency) has been getting the vacation time paid out, but getting back the leave accrual status and unused sick time when I start the next job. Of course this can vary and I believe you if it does, it just seems…like a pretty crappy policy that it would have to be continuous.

      1. Close to Unemployed*

        If I got back the unused sick & the same vacation accrual, I’d be pretty fine with it. I’d rather keep my vacation (especially because they only pay a portion of it, and it goes into a health care retirement account instead of a check), but I get enough that I can rebuild pretty quickly. I have seen other people end up screwed on vacation negotiation, though.

        The carrot they hold over us is that we will be credited with other relevant government service ( I worked for a county, where I did very similar work) for vacation accrual, but they will deny that or refuse if they can. When I started this position I refused to accept my job offer until I knew whether they would credit my past time, and it took more than a month for them to finally tell me they would not give me that credit, then another couple weeks of me asking why they were denying something that was part of their guidelines, until they eventually gave in and credited my time. When I finally went to accept the job offer it was so old it had expired in their system and they had to re-issue it.

        I’ve seen two people return to work here after going to another government entity, and lose their vacation time accrual. With both of them I tried to warn them that they shouldn’t accept a job here without everything in writing, but they thought the state wouldn’t just take away their past service. HR didn’t credit them, though, and the employees were already in the jobs when they were finally told what they would receive.

        They will count the three years I have from working here, but I’ll have to fight for the 14 years from the county that I’m currently credited with. That’s the difference between 3.5 hours vacation per paycheck and 8.

        You’re so right that it’s a crappy policy. Demoralizing and stupid. Either my past experience should count, or it shouldn’t, it shouldn’t be a dice roll.

        1. Robyn*

          I don’t know if you are represented currently or if the potential position is represented, but this is all clearly laid out in the union contracts at my job, including granting credit for seniority (determines vacation and sick accrual) and getting sick time back if you leave but return to state service within a certain period of time. Additional bonus is that the union stewards will help you fight to get the state to adhere to the contract, so it’s not a slog by yourself.

  69. Librarian*

    My agency hired 6 summer interns (college students). The monthly management meeting was yesterday, where everyone in a supervisory position attends to be briefed on agency happenings, milestones, and upcoming initiatives. At the meeting yesterday, I was sitting next to one of the interns in the meeting and saw that he wasn’t taking notes…he was writing a novel. The only reason I looked at his notebook was because he kept moving around and I couldn’t see past him at the screen (the non-supervisors sit in a row of chairs around the perimeter of the room, if that makes sense) and I was getting frustrated. I’m not planning to say anything to the intern supervisor about how he seemed distracted and disengaged from the discussion since a) it’s not my business, b) I don’t work with the intern supervisor much anymore, and c) maybe he’s a multi-tasker and this is how he focuses. But what would you do?

    1. AnonToday*

      Would, as a fellow library person, pull aside their manager and say something, if there manager is a reasonable human. That is not acceptable behavior for an intern in a work meeting and they need to be told it will, at least, look bad to others.

    2. NotAPirate*

      Multitasking is taking notes or doodling borders on pages. Writing a novel takes more focus. I’d mention something to his mentor about it.

      1. Rainy days*

        Yeah, writing a novel takes *extreme* focus IMO. There’s no way he was paying attention.

    3. MeganTea*

      I would say something to the supervisor. This is the perfect time for the intern to learn that a monthly meeting is not the time and place to work on your novel. Interns should be learning professional norms and behaviors in their internships. Or, if the intern knows this, but doesn’t care, that’s still important info for the supervisor to find out. But, when telling the supervisor, I would probably frame it as tipping off the supervisor that the intern needed a little coaching on meeting etiquette.

    4. montescristo1985*

      Do you need to go to the supervisor? Wouldn’t it be kinder, and more direct, to just approach the intern yourself?

      1. valentine*

        Going to the supervisor takes away his freebie, so the next time he pulls something, he can’t say he’s just an ignorant woobie. He did this where someone could see, mainly because he also was constantly blocking their view, so, the supervisor may want to keep an eye out for future shenanigans.

  70. Master Bean Counter*

    So an interesting couple of weeks for me. I finally cornered my boss about my promotion and raise. Turns out he was dragging his feet because they’ve decided to stop over paying for the position. I’m not exactly happy that this decision came at the time of an internal promotion and the first female to take the position. I let him know that too. But as a person in charge of the company budget I kinda get it as well.
    I also went back to my old work place while I was on vacation. I was dropping off some real vanilla for my old assistant. She’s the only one who’s actually kept in touch with me and has been a friend in the 6 years since I left. I also took her a bottle of coffee tequila–two things she loves in one bottle. I got two hugs for that.
    But I also noticed that the office configuration had changed. When I was there it was an open office where everybody got along and collaborated. There were no walls between desks in my area and all tall furniture was against the walls. It was a welcoming and friendly place. Now they’ve moved the cabinets and furniture around to make as many walls and divisions between the desks as possible. It made me kind of sad. Seven years I worked on making that place a good place to work. Now it’s back to the in-fighting and clique-y stuff again. Sigh.

    1. Wishing You Well*

      “dropping off some real vanilla” – I thought that was some kind of new slang I didn’t know.
      Got it now! Thanks for the smile!

    2. Fiberpunk*

      I’m sorry about the issues you’re having. I have to say, though, research has shown the majority of people don’t work well in completely open offices. Working in a place with no walls between desks makes me feel constantly watched and uncomfortable, and definitely less productive. I don’t think that you should see it as somehow indicative of being clique-y.

      1. ghostwriter*

        I 100% second the point about open offices. They are so distracting! It’s useful for some things, like brainstorming sessions, but when you’re trying to get work done they really hinder performance (for me at least).

    3. ..Kat..*

      So, you are the first female to take the position. You don’t get paid what all the men are paid in this position. Are you in the USA? This is an EEOC violation.

  71. Ariana Grande's Ponytail*

    Any advice for an inevitable conversation about “how can we trust your work” in the context of not having the resources to succeed?

    Last week my boss found out that a mistake we had already discussed had a bigger effect than we previously thought. He popped in to check on the project, I updated him, then he stood over me for 40 minutes getting increasingly angry and saying things like the above, along with other admonishments. He then sent an angry email that night and again reprimanded me during our regular meeting later during the week. He told my coworker during a meeting that he was “suprised” to learn that I have been upset about all of this.

    I definitely messed something up, and I am willing to own my mistakes and work to fix them, but I think there are a few issues going on. I am in a newly created position in a department of 1, this is my first job out of school, and I have two bosses who do not communicate on my projects or provide very much guidance, oversight, or support. It feels like the a catch-22 and I’ve gone home in tears more nights than not since all of this going on. I even tried to bring up how to move forward and was told “no”, full stop. I have only been at this job a year and a half and there was another time where I was blamed for someone else’s mistake and offered no support or resources or a plan to deal with my supposed error. It seems more like my bosses want me to cry in front of them when we have these discussions than actually solve the problem or maintain professionalism. I’m at a loss. I’m also worried that I will lose control of myself and say what I really think, which is that this has been humiliating and I sometimes want to quit and move to a commune and farm goats.

    1. AnonToday*

      Um… Your boss is awful. There are so many red flags in this. “he stood over me for 40 minutes getting increasingly angry” is not something that should happen at a functional healthy work place. He reprimanded you? Excuse me, are you small child? This is not acceptable or healthy. You should not be crying at work. None of this is okay. I would be looking and looking hard.

      As for how to answer that question, I don’t think there is a good answer. The reality is that there’s no answer to that question that is “safe” or “right”. These people are not reasonable.

      1. Susan*

        Agreed on the above. Healthy workplace = “Okay, we can’t change the past. a.) what do we do to ameliorate the problem now? and b.) how do we put processes in place so we don’t do it again?”. Unhealthy = yell at you. Because that turns back time and fixes the problem.

        1. Ariana Grande's Ponytail*

          Thank you both! This is really good to hear. I started looking last weekend but was afraid to type that in at work. I can’t stress how ridiculous and bad this has been. It’s affecting my health!

  72. Sir Oliver Boliver Butt*

    Someone I know has started a company doing a new and exciting form of llama grooming. They want to hire a bunch of really excellent llama groomers — top 1% llama groomers, if not top .1%. (For context, they used to work at one of the most prestigious llama grooming companies in the world and say they would probably be willing to hire about 1/4 of their former coworkers. There are a lot of mediocre llama groomers in the world, even at “important” places.) Llama grooming is a predominantly male field, so it’s not a surprise that their few employees so far are all men. They and I both agree that it would be awesome to interview women for their team. They only want to hire REALLY REALLY GOOD llama groomers, there are a lot of mediocre llama groomers out there, and every moment spent screening out those mediocre llama groomers is a moment not spent actually grooming llamas/managing the employees they already have: they want the modal interview to lead to a hire. Therefore, so far, the people they’ve interviewed have all been recommended by people they know and trust to be really good llama groomers and have a really good eye for good llama groomers. Which is great…except llama grooming is a predominantly male field and almost all the people who’ve been recommended are men.

    Short of posting the job on job boards, which they say would lead to a prohibitively time-consuming screening process, what do you suggest they do to increase the number of women they’re interviewing?

    1. Sir Oliver Boliver Butt*

      And just to be exceptionally clear, I don’t want to come off like I’m saying I (or the person I’m talking about here) think women can’t be really good llama groomers — it’s just that if 20% of the people in the field are women to begin with, there are only 1/500 of all llama groomers who are both women and in the top 1%, which is not very many individuals! So how do you increase your chances of finding them…?

      1. Nicki Name*

        “Therefore, so far, the people they’ve interviewed have all been recommended by people they know and trust to be really good llama groomers and have a really good eye for good llama groomers.”

        You’ve just described the classic old-boys’ network. They’re not going to give women any opportunities unless they find a way to reach outside of it. (They are probably seriously disadvantaging minority llama groomers as well.)

        Is there an industry organization for specifically women that they might be able to send the job listing to? That will be like posting on a job board, but if women are such a small percentage of the industry, perhaps you can convince your HR (or equivalent) that it’ll be less of a waste of time.

    2. Daughter of Ada and Grace*

      If women don’t know about the openings, they can’t apply. (Same goes for men and non-binary persons as well, as well as any other groups underrepresented in the llama grooming industry. I’m willing to bet that those groups exist, and this company needs to look at that, too.) So relying only on the networks of people who already work there will get them… more people like the people who already work there.

      If llama grooming is an industry where underrepresented groups (of any sort, not just women) are trying to increase representation, then the company needs to actively approach those groups. Meetups, workshops, conferences, and yes, targeted job boards. Not just job boards targeted at llama grooming, but job boards targeted at women/underrepresented groups in llama grooming.

      This will take time. This will take deliberate effort. This will take hard work. There is no shortcut. But if they do this right early, then as the company grows, they will get the reputation of being a place that’s not only got the top 1% of llama groomers, but as a place that’s good to work for all llama groomers. And the underrepresented groups will know about them.

      They probably also need to accept that some of the llama groomers they hire may not start out at top 1%, but can be trained from say, top 5% to top 1%, or be in the top 1% of junior llama groomers, who primarily lack experience to make them the top 1% of senior llama groomers.

    3. Amtelope*

      You’ve ruled out the obvious way to get a more diverse pool of candidates, which is to advertise the job more widely. Has your friend told the people they know that they are particularly interested in interviewing women? Have they asked the women they know and trust in the industry to recommend other excellent women?

      If the answer to the second question is “they don’t actually know any women in the industry,” then their choice is a) do the work of posting the job publicly and screening candidates, even though that’s inconvenient, or b) go on paying lip service to diversity while actually relying on an old-boys’ network that will never produce diverse candidates.

      1. Federal Middle Manager*

        This. Also change the questions you’re asking your recent hires. Rather than saying “Do you know any amazing llama groomers?” specifically say “Do you know any amazing women llama groomers?” or “Who do you know who would know who are the up and coming star women llama groomers?” Get them to think about their networks, not just the individuals who do the job. Maybe reach out to the universities or training programs and ask if they’d be interested in sending diverse candidates your way for a great opportunity.

        It’s worth addressing internal biases about what being a great llama groomer means too…https://psmag.com/economics/men-are-judged-based-on-their-potential-women-are-judged-based-on-their-past-performance

    4. Overeducated*

      So this scenario reminds me a lot with an interview with the editor of the Atlantic that came out a week or two ago, where he made some comment about there being very few people who can write 10,000 word cover stories, and almost all of those people are men. I think his point was that to increase representation of women you need to promote based on potential and not just existing accomplishments, but the way he phrased it was awful (made it sound like women hadn’t gotten the opportunities because they weren’t capable, when “has already published a 10,000 word national magazine cover story” is not necessarily the best measure of ability to write a good one). I’d suggest Googling some of the backlash to this, as a lot of people had a lot of feedback on how they think he SHOULD be handling it that could be relevant to this situation.

    5. Maya Elena*

      Some approaches though:
      -Post on llama-specialized job boards (rather than Indeed)
      -Recruit at schools with known strong llama-grooming programs

      To screen applicants in a labor-saving way, have a “blind audition” or skills test, if llama-grooming allows it.

      But also, set realistic expectations for them and for yourself. The company might not be in a position to recruit “top 1%”, because how are they able to compete with Market Leader’s salary, benefits, amenities? As a startup, you also might not be a position to offer the kinds of benefits or positions that women are more interested in (more people-facing, better work-life balance) as compared to Market Leader. And in a field with 20% of women, 20% women among your Llama Groomers is a bonus but shouldn’t be the end-all be-all goal.

    6. AnonToday*

      I would look for schools that are the best for Llama Grooming and then finding ways to recruit those Llama Groomers, specifically schools that have people who are underrepresented in Llama Grooming tend to go.

      The truth is that unless they are willing to spend some time and take some risk on unknown folks, they are never going to increase the diversity of their Llama Grooming teams, because they are just going to be looking at people they already know who already fit the model of the right sort of person.

  73. Zaftig zucchini*

    Clash of the Directors S1.E6

    Event Manager (EM) will be induced today and baby girl will make her appearance. Before she left I asked the EM if she would like to be kept informed of any major conversations that affect her job; I emphasized not minute details but what if the DD asked me if we really need an EM or do we think we need to roll this job into a new role. The DD told the EM, before her maternity leave, that she was reworking her job description- because everybody likes when your job descriptions is reworked without your input.

    I, (just to remind you I’m a coordinator between program and development), had my first solo meeting with the Development Director (DD) this past week. The first question out of her mouth was, “Why don’t people know how to do P&L’s? What’s so hard?” I said, “P&Ls are not the language or the product we produce for events any other type of program. We have activity budgets, but we don’t look at it as a P&L function.” The longer the DD stays in a for-profit mindset and doesn’t learn to nonprofit language or technical components the harder it will be for her to progress.

    As the conversation continued, I had to remind her that the previous executive director was very close to the vest with information and financials as he was trying to make himself look good because he wasn’t very good at his job. There wasnt a lot of transparency or expectation for everybody else to do these kinds of things. Therefore there’s not a lot of history to draw from. Programs did not know what their budget was, they weren’t part of the budget development process either. I told her that she needs to keep history in mind when moving forward and understand why the conversation still stilted, closed, or not as informative as she would help them to be. She and new executive director are embarking on creating a new culture and system. I
    They need to be cognizant of the sensitivity that goes along with that.

    As the meeting continued, we discussed the upcoming fundraising event that we will have to do as the EM is on maternity leave. I already parsed out which tasks I would take care of, which are mostly logistical and behind-the-scenes. I clearly let her know that her best role is outward-facing, working with corporate team fundraisers and addressing the events etc. She agreed with that distribution of tasks. Yeah me! Except she forward me all notification emails a voicemails on her work phone and told me to call everybody back to find out what they’re working on then let them know that she’ll call them back later? Nope I’m not a secretary.

    The DD noted she felt that the relationship was getting stronger between the DD/ ED and the PD. She said that the leadership team meetings were very much a part of that (Yeah me for letting the DD know that ED/DD actions were creating a wedge and that they needed to do something about it. I credit myself for planting the leadership team meeting concept).

    The DD has been on deck for 3.5 months and is already taking her first week of vacation. I find that curious since she nickeled and dimed the EM on her maternity leave, she back charged the EM for the doctor’s appointments over the past 9 months whittling down her maternity leave from 4 weeks to 3.125 weeks. The DD will tack on a week’s vacation after their week-long conference, in Colorado. The ED director is going to do the same thing. Which leaves the PD in charge for those two weeks. Thankfully it’s the summer and thankfully the PD and get along very well so it’ll be a vacation for all of us.

    Unfortunately it’s 99.9% assured that the program director (PD) will leave in the summer.

    I asked the PD on what she thought the ED and DD will do to programs once the PD left. The PD believes that the DD will turn into an Ops Director and assume control of programs; they will hire a couple of program managers and do away with the program director position. This concept worked, in the past, when the organization had more staff and needed financial and HR oversight, the Ops director had knowledge of programs and could effectively manage them, and we had more people in the development department. There’s only 7 staff so we don’t need an Ops Dir, we desperately need a DD who is, currently, one person for a 2.5 person department. I think the DD would rather be an operations person and not a fundraiser.

    As far as my own work is concerned, a week ago I was ticked because the ED did not have her copy ready for her fundraising email that was supposed to go out on Thursday June 6th. Instead it went out on Tuesday the 11th. It went out, we received $200 in donations. Mind you this is the first time the org has sent out a newsletter asking for donations, aside from our local giving day. I don’t think it was a very well-thought-out campaign and is taking place two weeks before the end of our fiscal year and PD thinks the ED is doing it to try to get some more money to make a budget look good. the ED was expecting a lot more financial response and is bummed that it didn’t. Surprise to me that the ED wants to resend this campaign, with the same subject line, to non-opens on Thursday the 13th. While we don’t have a defined process as how we’re doing these newsletters, since I just restarted them April, I can’t dispute that we shouldn’t resend this fundraising ask out again, but it’s not wise to resend every communique that goes out. Not to mention the timing infringes on the schedule I had to send out our monthly newsletter which always goes out mid-month, and that newsletter we always resend to non opens. I resent the email, as is, and it’s has not generated any new donations but it has generated a few more opt outs.

    So our contacts, who never received regular communications before April, have been utterly bombarded in June. I’m now cutting down our monthly newsletter to make it short and quick and only focus on the success’s stories and one call to action. I just hope this flurry of communications doesn’t cause our readers to unsubscribe, but there’s always the tried-and-true loyal supporters will always read whatever you put out. Maybe this will help me on my crusade to whittle down our 8000 contact list,with a 25% read rate, into something more manageable and responsive.

    Oh and our second coffee machine died. I’m only one of two people who drink coffee in the office so likelihood it’s not going to be replaced. I have to bring my own coffee anyway; this is the first nonprofit I’ve ever worked at where I had to buy my own coffee.

    1. VeronicaVaughn*

      Hey- Annual Fund Manager here. 25% open rate is fantastic, actually! I wouldn’t worry too much about unsubscribes unless it begins to outweigh the growth rate of your email list. It takes a while to train (and build trust with) a list that hasn’t been solicited via email before. I took about 6 months of consistent appeals in my current job (where I built the fundraising email program from scratch) to finally have campaigns that are raising consistent money. If you’re worried about frequency of communication, pick a few times a year you can do a focused campaign for a real need, it’ll help the list learn that this is a) an easy way to give b) they can have an immediate impact and c) you only ask when you need something important. I’d also encourage you to actually grow the list, unfortunately it’s all a numbers game :-/.

      So sorry you have to deal with the politics involved with the directors. I had to deal with that for a year at my current job and it’s so dispiriting and demoralizing. Stay strong!

      1. Zaftig zucchini*

        Hi! Thanks for the upbeat response. I haven’t done a non-profit newsletter for quite a few years and some just getting back into the swing of writing them. I’m focused on good subject lines and doing a/b split testing. I approached this lightheartedly, and with a sense of humor so I’m trying to keep it fun for everyone.

        I wish I could say it’s a 25% open rate per newsletter, but we’re averaging 15%. 25% would be that our 8k subscribers read any of our emails. Since I arrived the emails haven’t been a concerted effort so yeah the ship isn’t turning on a dime. One of our SWOT analysis goals for 2019-2020 is to put together in editorial calendar and marketing plan.

        Sadly, do not come at me with torches, we don’t have a very proper opt-in process. Basically everybody who is a volunteer ends up on our list which means we have a lot of unsubscribes and non-opens. That’s why I would like to start analyzing opens and non-opens.

    2. WellRed*

      I wouldn’t be so concerned about her taking a week of vacation already (though it’s unusual to take one in the first few months in a lot of places). I am more concerned with the nickel and diming of EM’s maternity leave (also, 4 weeks?!). Especially the back charging of it which I kinda wonder Is That Legal?
      Does she just hate EM for some reason, or does she hate babies? I look forward to your update that EM has given notice.

      1. Zaftig zucchini*

        I was surprised when I asked the DD, about a month ago, if her family was planning a summer vacation and she adamantly said no. Perhaps she’s overwhelmed and has come to her senses about the gravity of the job that she’s taking a vacation. And yeah after her tirade against the EM about PTO doctor’s appointments, I was surprised she was so taking time off. I don’t get time off, because I’m part time, so I have no idea how the accrual works.

        I’ll note that it is a paid 4- weeks but the EM is taking a total of 12 weeks. At first the EM was going to return part-time after 6 weeks to help with a late summer fundraiser, but when the DD went after her PTO, she said ‘screw it I’m taking 12-weeks’.

        The EM, and I, believe that she and the DD wouldn’t be able to come to an agreement on work styles. I think the DD is so set in the way she wants to be addressed, the EM would have to change her whole persona and approach. I’m able to deal with the DD, at this point, because I understand how she thinks, how to manage her and how to get her to do the things I want her to do. After 20 years of nonprofit work, hopefully I can educate her on how a positive nonprofit work place and culture will benefit her work.

  74. vermicompost*

    A place I interviewed for and got really far in the process with last year (3 rounds of interviews and gave references) just sent an email out announcing one of their staff members is leaving. This is a small organization in an industry tough to get into and the role this person had is actually much more aligned with my qualifications than the job I originally applied for. Is it tacky to reach out to the ED I interviewed with and check in if they will be filling this role? Is there a way to do this in a non-tacky way?

    1. vermicompost*

      also: should i wait a bit before jumping up and being like “are you filling this”

    2. Interplanet Janet*

      “Wow, Jane leaving must be a huge loss for your organization. She is instrumental in organizing XXX and managing YYY, isn’t she? Not sure if I’m jumping the gun here, but if you’re planning to replace her, those are skills I’ve got in spades and I’d be interested in throwing my hat in the ring. Do you still have my resume from my candidacy last year? Is there someone I should send my resume to to officially be considered?”

  75. alayne*

    How long do you keep things you did in grad school, like a research assistant position or things you did on campus, on your resume? I also got a job in the field a lot of my volunteer work was in. Previously I felt that I needed to have it on there to show that I was interested in that particular subfield, but now that feels less necessary.

    1. alayne*

      I was thinking of dividing it into two sections – professional experience and research experience

  76. Interplanet Janet*

    So bummed! My favorite coworker gave notice this week and will be gone end of next week. One of the best parts about my job has been collaborating with and learning from him.

    *sad trombone*

    1. Zaftig zucchini*

      I can empathize. A co-worker left on maternity leave and may not return. She’s so nice and we align in personalities.

      *sad clarinet*

    2. stitchinthyme*

      I feel for you! I had three coworkers that I was more comfortable working with than anyone else at my company…and they all left within the last year. (As it turns out, however, one of them is coming back.)

      I’ve left jobs in the past when favorite managers jumped ship. I usually give it a little time to see if I can deal with the new status quo and get comfortable working with different people, but if that doesn’t happen, I start looking.

    3. Seifer*

      Ugh, I know that feel. My best friend at work just left and I have been so so sad. While I’ve known him for years and we’ll still keep in touch, he was the one that put me up for this job and believed in me when I didn’t believe in me. It sucks.

    4. Alex*

      I literally have nightmares about this happening to me, so please accept my condolences.

      I don’t know how I would go on in my job if my work BFF left. I need her both for collaboration and for moral support!

  77. Help!*

    I work for a small non-profit, only 6 employees and I have worked there for the past 6 months. My boss and I have very different methods of approaching things. I tend to think things through thoroughly, make pro con lists, and generally like to come up with all alternatives. My boss on the other hand is impulsive and likes to think things out on the fly. A good example of this was we were discussing doing an ad campaign and he impulsively says “we should split this with (other nonprofit)” and calls them immediately and I am left fumbling trying to catch up since we didn’t discuss anything. My question is should I change to be more “charge ahead” and be impulsive in the workplace? Because right now things are constantly tense between my boss and I (and the other staff who are similar to me) because of the different way we approach work.

    1. Zaftig zucchini*

      Does your boss have a record of impulsivity that results in negative outcomes? Does it appear impulsive to you, because of your approach, or is it common sense and intuitive to your boss to make these decisions in a shorter timeframe that is comfortable for you?

      Also it sounds like your boss is the only one, maybe because of their long-term experience, to make intuitive, executive decisions and pull the trigger rather than waiting for five other staff members to do highly intensive research projects.

      Yes, it is a good skill for you to become more decisive and able to quickly assess a situation without it being a labor-intensive, thoroughly researched out. Not every decision requires that level of work. Eventually you will find a balance between assessment and decision.

      I am a a researcher, somebody who likes to have all the information and data before making a decision. But not everybody works that way and many people find it to be a barrier to progress. I’ve learned, after working in nonprofit for 20 years, that some decisions are easy to make (and repair later on), rather than taking a lot of time to programmatically dissect them before execution.

      When you become more decisive, and feel comfortable being able to take all the information that you’ve gleaned from previous experiences and make a decision, you can meet the pace that your boss is working at.

      Yet, at the same time you need to find a voice that resonates with your boss and says, ‘I would like us to spend XX minutes on this idea.’ This tells your boss that you don’t want to create a full-blown report, but that you would like them to stop, discuss, assess, and make a decision within a defined timeframe.

      Doing this will also allow your boss to help you learn their decision-making process and the context that allows them to make that decision so quickly.

      Maybe as an organization you can come to an agreement that certain cost items or programmatic choices have to go through a more rigorous review and other ones that are rote, regular and lower dollar threshold can go through a different type of process.

      1. Help!*

        Thank you so much for your thoughtful reply, I really appreciate it.

        I would say that he more focuses on short-term “crises” that end up negatively impacting things. For example, we are both lobbyists and went to a political fundraiser and he decided spur of the moment to go up to a senator and tell him to do a particular bill for us. This ended up being a huge mistake and now the bill is tanking because of it.

        So for example the ad campaign, I was in the room hashing out the details with my boss and my other coworker and boss says “Lets team up with (other association) on this so we can split cost” and he immediately started calling their President/CEO. My coworker that was in the room said while the phone was dialing “Name.. We need to talk this through” and my boss just said “whatever, let’s do it.”

        There are times that I am decisive, it just depends on the subject matter. Like for the ad campaign I quickly decided what size we wanted to go with. But I like to have all of the information in front of me before I make decisions usually since you are basically staking your entire professional reputation as a lobbyist on the actions you take.

      2. Help!*

        I guess, in a nut shell, the way I view my job is like a game of chess. It is a lot of strategy, anticipating the moves of other players… And as such, I like to be prepared on all fronts and prepared for all possible outcomes because in the world of politics there is absolutely no consistency. You can say all you want about game theory or whatever other predictive measures there are, but in the end you are all running around like chickens with your head cut off and it really is best to be prepared for 1. Your bill passes 2. Your bill gets vetoes 3. Your bill gets signed into law and a million other possible difficulties along the way.

  78. DANGER: Gumption Ahead*

    I know we aren’t supposed to call jobs “dream jobs” but out of the blue a recruiter contacted me on LinkedIn asking if I was interested in what is essentially the job I would design for myself if I could. I decided to apply and put a desired salary that is $20K higher than what I make, but is only about $5K above the market average for my field in my city. Do you think I went too ambitious? My current salary is publicly available, so they are going to know what I make now. However, I am one of four people in my state with the specific experience and expertise they are looking for and of the four of us, I have worked in it the longest (12 years with the next longest being 7), so I felt like it wasn’t a completely ridiculous ask. What do you all think?

    2. voluptuousfire*

      You’re one of the 4 people in your state (with the most experience) in this what sounds to be a niche field and is somewhat of an ideal job and a 20k pay bump? Go for it. They may not even bother to look up your salary online. If you’re in such a niche field that only 3-4 other people have the experience, they can’t be cheap without alienating the kiddie pool of candidates they do have.

      Long story short, go for it.

  79. Formerly Arlington*

    I manage a really talented person and we both have an overwhelming work load. A peer of mine keeps giving me feedback she wants me to pass on to my direct report. I find the feedback to be petty, like she says “um” a lot (yes, our office has been forced to watch the Radical Candor video countless times.) I don’t want to be dismissive to my peer, but I also am not sure her feedback is valuable enough to be passed on to my employee, especially as most of my time 1:1 with her is collaborating on how to get our work done efficiently. She doesn’t do public speaking as part of her job, for example, so spending time on a 1:1 talking about “um” feels odd to me. But I also don’t want to discourage feedback. Any suggestions?

    1. NotAPirate*

      Keep a written or typed log of feedback and don’t bring any of the useless stuff up now just save it so you can tell peer you’ve taken concerns into note. Then at her yearly review or whatever see if any of it matters enough to be passed on then. Also maybe tell peer to stop trying to manage your subordinate. Push back in the moment too. She says Um! Well she doesnt present for anything so im not worried etc.

      1. Commenter*

        If it matters enough to mention it on her annual review (which presumably goes into her permanent employee record), wouldn’t it be important enough to mention now?? Annual review seems like exactly the wrong time to mention something that seems too trivial to bring up in a 1-on-1.

      2. Close Bracket*

        “so you can tell peer you’ve taken concerns into note. ”

        I disagree. If it’s not worth bringing up to the direct report, then don’t act like it is. Push back instead. FA can say something like, “I’m not terribly concerned about [useless feedback]. I’ve got other priorities to bring up with her, so I’m going to let this one go.”

        1. valentine*

          Right. Accepting feedback doesn’t mean accepting all of it and there’s a study that shows “like” is a pause indicative of thoughtfulness, which I would eagerly share with peer.

    2. Moray*

      “I’ll think about it, but we’ve got a lot going on and I’m not sure that’s major enough to address with Employee right now.”

    3. Lilysparrow*

      Don’t bother your direct report about this at all. You are the manager and you have decided that it’s not relevant. You don’t need to say anything to your peer about it, dismissive or otherwise.

      If your peer demands that you report back on delivering this message, then they are trying to act like your boss, not your peer. You can rightfully push back on that by saying, “I’m always happy to hear feedback about my team, but I have my own priorities, so I’m going to exercise discretion about what needs to be addressed and when.”

  80. rider on the storm*

    I’ve just started a project management admin role in higher ed and I’m not sure what it is I am supposed to be doing :/ obviously I know the job description and it is what I’m doing but its so strange going from roles where there is little flexibility etc

  81. Introvert girl*

    When applying for a job most people focus on things like money, PTO, insurance, bring your dog to work day etc… But how do you open a conversation concerning things like a carpet in the office (when you’re severely allergic to dust and have asthma), the air conditioning (or lack thereof) in the building or working in an open space? I’ve just given up and now looking for jobs from home as medically and emotionally I’ve created a good working environment. Job advertisements don’t have this kind of information on their websites, nor is it something you expect from a job candidate to ask before applying. How do you deal with these kind of situations?

    1. AnonToday*

      You can not ask about these things before you apply. It’ll come off as focusing on something that most people will see as minor (I know it is not minor to you, but others will see it as being minor). Once you have an in-person interview you can ask to see where you would be working (that is normal enough). From there, I would use your best judgement. My desk is technically in an “open office” space, but since most of my coworkers are out of the office most of the time, it really doesn’t feel like an “open office” space. It just feels like I have a huge office into which occasionally other folks come for a few days a month.

      1. WellRed*

        I agree with this. I also think you can assume most office spaces *will* have carpets, unfortunately.

    2. Fortitude Jones*

      Sadly, I think your best bet is to stick with trying to find remote/work from home jobs. I had to get one due to an overactive bladder and bowel issue that hasn’t fully resolved even with daily medication. I couldn’t see asking employers how close their restrooms are, would they be bothered by me disappearing from my seat at least two or three times every hour and a half for long stretches of time, etc. But I love working from home full time and don’t think I could ever work in another office again, especially if my health issues don’t clear up.

  82. AnonToday*

    So, I accepted a position verbally(and received my offer in writing), but the job is working for a state where the budget hasn’t fully been finalized for the 2019 fiscal year. I know once the budget is finalized, the job will be secure, but there is a chance everyone working for the institution maybe furloughed if the budget isn’t finalized by July 1.

    Clearly, I can’t formally accept a job that won’t be able to pay me, because they literally have no money. I know the chances of this actually happening are extremely slim. Does anyone have any advice on how to stop worrying incessantly about the budget? This is worrying me way more than is rational given the circumstances.

    1. Llellayena*

      If you’re currently employed, can you ask to set the start date at the new place based on the timing of the furlough? “I’m concerned about being furloughed immediately after starting, can we hold my start date until we see how that plays out?”

  83. Unladen Swallow*

    Hello! Long time reader, first time poster.
    TL:DR summary: Do you encourage someone to apply for an internal position for which their skills are middling to mediocre? Or do you go ahead and do a full search, with the person as one of the candidates?

    Details:
    I manage a team of four within a larger office. With people moving across country, there have been openings within the office and within my team. One of my team members has indicated to me that she is interested in one of the open positions, which would be a promotion because of more responsibilities and higher level projects. However, the truth is that she doesn’t have the strongest skills for the open position. In particular, her attention to details is not the strongest and she has trouble with anticipation and initiative in starting/completing projects. She knows that these are areas of growth for her because we have talked about them and these specifics have been part of her last two annual reviews. Granted, she has improved in these areas, but they’re still not at a level at which I’m comfortable in giving her a lot of autonomy in the new role. I would have to continue to supervise her closely and do some of the explicit “hand holding/support” I’m doing now.

    My supervisor thinks that she might “rise to the occasion” and do better in the new role because the responsibilities/work would be more interesting to her – her current role is entry level. I’m not so sure – nothing has indicated that her lack of skills is from boredom, more that this is just her personality. Also, my supervisor, whenever possible, likes to promote from within. If my team member does get the promotion, I won’t have the capacity to closely monitor her work like I do now because there will be other new hires and I anticipate that they’ll need some extra support in their first year as well.

    I haven’t had a chance to have an in-person conversation with my team member yet, but when I do and find out more about her interest in the new position, I’ll be sure to talk about some of my concerns and hear what she has to say. Our options are: 1) give my team member the promotion and the new position; 2) encourage her to apply but do a full search and have her be one of the candidates; 3) discourage her from applying.

    Should we offer the position to my team member and hopes that she rises to the occasion, despite my concerns? Should we do a full search and see if she rises to the top amongst the candidates? Any thoughts would be helpful. Thank you!

    1. AnonToday*

      I would do a full search. I would not discourage her from applying. If she wants to toss her hat into the ring than she should. I would be honest with your concerns if you have them though. Otherwise, you are being intensely unkind to her. I would also be sure you know how you will handle it if she doesn’t get the job, especially if she asks you for feedback.

    2. Rey*

      Do a full search. You describe her as middling to mediocre right now, and I assume that you wouldn’t offer a position to someone with that kind of reference. If she states that she is interested in this position, then you can point back to her last two annual reviews. It sounds like you’ve been very explicit about what a high achiever would look like in her current role, and she has decided not to meet that standard.

    3. Psyche*

      I would probably tell her what I need to see from her before I can consider her for that type of position. It sounds like she doesn’t understand how much she is lacking. Maybe do less handholding now and see if she can rise to the occasion in her current position.

      1. Auntie Social*

        Yes, she shows a remarkable lack of self-knowledge. And wouldn’t you be working hard and showing people you’re a rock star, rather than half-assing it and admitting you could do better? Tell her to rise to the occasion now, and do her current job the way it ought to be done.

    4. The Man, Becky Lynch*

      Do a full search. It’s an awful mistake to hand over this kind of promotion to someone who struggles so much. It’s rare that someone “rises to the occasion” unless they’re already strong at what they’re doing and able to adapt extremely well.

      I say this as someone who rapidly climbed the ladder myself because I had the skill set needed to do so. I’ve seen more failure stories and absolute messes that creates over the years of just letting someone break off a big chunk of responsibility and chew on it. It’s unfair to set her up for failure, even if she feels it’s unfair right now not to let her give it a try [your risks are high by giving this person so much in the end].

    5. fhqwhgads*

      She’s not going to rise to the occasion. You need to walk before you run, and someone whose attention to detail isn’t satisfactory for an entry level job doesn’t have the foundation to move up. I’m living this right now with someone who is a delightful person but was never great at her job, and is now promoted and not great at her new job, and it’s a lot more problematic now that she’s actually in charge of things.

      Let the person apply, sure. But I think it extremely unlikely you won’t find better candidates from an actual search.

    6. Fortitude Jones*

      I would go with option 3. Be polite when doing it, of course, but she needs to know she barely has the skills for the job she’s currently in – she most definitely won’t be able to perform at the level you need her to at this next stage. If you think she can grow her skill set over time, give her some small projects she can work on that encompasses some of the things the person in the higher role would take on – if she’s open to it, and if she does well, then tell her you’ll consider her when the next spot becomes available. But you should absolutely not encourage her to apply or even just flat out five her the position – you’d be setting her up for failure. By discussing her current inadequacies, you’re actually doing her a kindness. If she really is ambitious and a hard worker, she’ll take the small tasks and run with them. If she bristles at the idea, then you’ll really know she’s not ready.

  84. Possible Red Flag?*

    Last week, I posted about being worried regarding a big workgap in my resume and received great advise on how to move forward. I quit my first post-college job in January of this year (I graduated ~2 years ago) and was getting ready to start my new summer gig to get back into the work force.

    But now my summer contract position has been basically revoked… It’s been months since I accepted the summer contract position but my to-be supervisor told me early this week that he has no idea when I can start due to HR not going through my paperwork fast enough. Yet this summer job was supposed to start this week :/ Now he offered that we can try waiting for a week to see if the paperwork finally goes through (and hopefully start the position 1-2 weeks later than the original start date) or he can refer me to another “similar” position but it’s float based (so the company calls me whenever they need someone).

    I ignored all the red flags of this position (they’ve slowly taken back job perks that were promised, reduced my hours, changed my time, etc) because I was so desperate to stop the work history gap and couldn’t get any other positions.

    But now will I have to go into serious job hunting mode because this position fell through and due to my work gap? My current history is:

    7/2017 – 1/2019 [Full-Time Job After College]
    4/2016 – 6/2017 [Part-Time Job During College]

    Currently have a 5 month (!) gap and I’m worried that it’ll get even longer because I’m competing with new college grads right now. Would you guys recommend trying to hit X number of job applications per week, etc? I’m still so upset about this new position not working out and would appreciate advise on what to do moving forward.

    1. AnonToday*

      Please don’t worry so much about a 5 month gap. People have gaps all the time. Do some volunteering, so you are doing something and try not to worry so much. Really.

    2. The Man, Becky Lynch*

      Don’t focus on the number of applications you put in, depending on your skills and experience, it may simply not be possible. Unless you’re looking for really generic administrative work, you are going to give yourself a lot more stress trying to establish a quota!

      Five months is not that much of a gap and you have a great excuse right now “I had a summer job lined up but they have decided to not bring that position back, so now I am searching.” That isn’t a flag for most employers, it happens that jobs fall through!

    3. Interplanet Janet*

      I put only years on my resume, not months. That would solve your problem here.

      1. WellRed*

        I think the advice is commonly against only using years, at least for shorter term stays. 2016 to 2017 could be almost two years or only 1 month, depending on the start and leave dates.

  85. youngprofessional*

    I would love to hear everyone’s advice/opinions on this. My last day at work is this upcoming Wednesday. Honestly, I would LOVE to write a scathing Glassdoor review in the near future and let everyone know what kind of place this is. However, we’re a small company, and I’m the only one leaving, so I’m very confident that they’d be able to figure out that it was me who posted it. The only thing stopping me from doing this is that I need a good reference from them as this is my first job post-college (been here for 2 years).

    I know it would be best not to post the review, but the way that I’ve been treated here is not OK. Maybe the question I should be asking is how to come to terms with it? Or can I ever tell them I was unhappy? (I can provide details as to the work environment/how I was treated if need be. It was just a lot to type in this initial post.)

    I have another question that perhaps shows my naivete and inexperience: I think many of us would never let our friends or family treat us the way our employers do. So why do we put up with it?

    1. Bruiser Woods*

      we put up with it because we need the money? and the reference later. I guess relationships with friends and family tend to be more equal. However you can find a better employer, which it sounds like you have.

    2. Frosty Friday*

      Wait at least a few months before you write a review, in general, when you’ve had some distance. I have seen some VERY salty reviews left by former coworkers that they probably wrote from their office on their last day in a big moment of catharsis. It showed little perspective, lots of bitterness and just looked petty (at least to me, who knows the organization). We knew who it was and this is a BIG workplace, but if they’d waited a few months they might have felt differently or had other insights based on comparison with their new gig. And it wouldn’t have soured us on them right when they left.

      1. Federal Middle Manager*

        I agree with this. Also it was your first job post-college, so there might have been issues there. Not to blame the victim, but sometimes it takes a while in a professional environment to develop a professional persona, so there might have been conflicts arising from boundary issues or vibes that are unclear for someone in their first full-time professional role. Good luck in your new position.

        1. Frosty Friday*

          Yeah, totally. For me, my first job out of college they DID objectively treat us like garbage and I put up with it because I didn’t know any better. I never did write a glassdoor review of that place, but I don’t need to now because I just instead quietly warn any college students who ask me about my time there – stay AWAY. And I do it with the perspective of just how messed up the place was because now I work someplace good. I don’t know what your industry is, youngprofessional, but I’m in nonprofit world and here, the answer to “why do we put up with it?” is that people get told, and believe, that you should be willing to martyr yourself a little bit “for the cause” and it takes some maturity and perspective for many of us to wake up and say, nah.

  86. Anonymous pregnant lady*

    So I’m about 6 weeks pregnant and this is my first pregnancy, so everything is new! I’m really starting to struggle with nausea/dizziness/headaches/fatigue…especially at work. I don’t want to to tell my boss or my employees yet, but it’s starting to impact my ability to focus in meetings, etc. Any tips on how you dealt with early pregnancy in the workplace?

    1. alohaflower*

      Hi! I’ve never been pregnant, but I hope I can help a bit. Can you tell them you’re dealing with a recent medical issue, so if you seem a bit “off,” that’s why?

      I also hear that snacking consistently throughout the day can help so you have some food in your stomach at all times.

      I’m not sure if this helps, but when my mom was pregnant with me, she had that condition where you throw up a lot until you’re dehydrated and she eventually had to go to the hospital for daily IVs. She didn’t want to tell her boss or coworkers, but she kind of HAD to and everything turned out okay.

      1. Not Me*

        I second this. Mention it to your boss that there is a medical issue you’re dealing with, you’re happy and able to be at work, but they might notice you’re not 100% and not to worry.

        Congratulations!!

    2. Arielle*

      Congrats on your pregnancy! I’m currently 22 weeks so this is recent stuff for me. I never got very sick but I was definitely nauseous for a few weeks and I found that Sea Bands worked great for that (although when I was in my early first trimester it was still cold outside so I could cover them up with long sleeves.) I took B6 twice a day, no idea if that actually did anything or not. I don’t have a lot of tips on fatigue other than what I did which was just powering through as best I could and then going home and crashing. I never actually napped in my car although I considered it. I also wouldn’t be afraid to take a sick day here and there if you can. A four day work week with Wednesday off is much more manageable than getting through five days in a row.

    3. Interplanet Janet*

      Random thoughts from someone who’s been through this three times:

      Make sure you’re staying hydrated. Preferably by drinking water slowly throughout the day rather than big glasses all at one time. If you’re nauseated, sip very cold ice water; it will stay down better.

      I took naps in my car at lunch when I was pregnant with my first.

      Keep a toothbrush and toothpaste at work in case you throw up. And a rubber band if your hair is long. Ask me how I know this is important.

      Most people’s pattern is to feel physically worse and worse until 8 or 10 weeks and then start to feel a little better until by about 12 or 13 weeks, they feel pretty good. (Side note, if you’re still very very tired after 13 weeks, ask to have your iron levels tested; I had anemia with my first and once I started taking an iron supplement I felt like a new woman.)

      At least at work, eat whatever doesn’t make you feel sick, nutrition be damned. Seriously. Some people swear by soda crackers and very plain stuff. I did best with essentially straight sugar (candy corn! Neccos! candy hearts! licorice!) I tried to get in some healthier stuff in the evenings where a failed experiment didn’t result in puking in the public bathroom at work. If nausea is interfering with work, your doctor can prescribe Zofran (an anti-nausea that they give chemotherapy patients), but it makes you sleepy, so you’ll have to weigh the costs and benefits.

      Ask your doctor, but mine told me that drinking (a reasonable amount of) coffee was nothing to lose sleep over. (I got pregnant with my second when my first was 9 months; I needed caffeine to be functional, THE END.)

      IF you have some flexibility with your work schedule, pay attention to what times of day you feel the best and try to work during those times.

      Invest in some non-maternity pants or skirts with elastic waistbands. You’ll feel better if you’re not squeezed even if you’re not ready for maternity wear yet, and you’ll need them after the baby comes anyway.

      And congratulations!

      1. VelociraptorAttack*

        These are great tips. I will note that Zofran didn’t make me sleepy and is the only way I was able to eat anything for pretty much my entire first trimester. So that might be a side effect that hits some people and not others.

        1. Interplanet Janet*

          Oh, man, if I took Zofran I might as well hang it UP, because it doesn’t just make me sleepy, it completely knocks me down for the count. But that’s good for OP to know. It really does do wonders for the nausea.

      2. Anonymous pregnant lady*

        Thanks so much (and thank you to everyone else who commented too)! I’m feeling so sick and alone at work and it’s super helpful to hear from all of you who have been through this.

    4. M. Albertine*

      Congratulations! The thing that saved me during my first pregnancy was being able to crawl under my desk and take a nap over my lunch hour. I know I was pretty lucky to be able to do that. I also got very familiar with ginger in all its forms for nausea (Reed’s Ginger Ale was my *favorite*). Make sure you are drinking enough water: You are gearing up for 50% more blood flow and need the hydration, that should help with some of the symptoms as well.

    5. Andy*

      Pregnancy is crazy! Congratulations!
      Goldfish crackers helped me and one friend w the nausea, also I really had a thing for ginger. It ends up being pretty personal but mostly something starchy for the tummy troubles seems to help.
      Hydration is KEY. It’s gonna make you pee a super lot but that’s what helped me with the headaches. I guess my kids were gestating in cerebro- spinal fluids? idk, babies are magic.
      you may have thought to yourself ‘hey this is great i can stop buying pads’ you cannot. the pads will help you when that asshole down the hall makes you laugh when she KNOWS FULL WELL you’ll pee yourself.
      friends. so rude. babies. so rude.
      IDK how to keep a secret so i did these things while complaining loudly at the imposition my biological imperative had laid upon me. Complaining helped! I can be pretty negative!
      To reiterate: Interplanet Janet is right to highlight hydration. It doesn’t get enough credit for helping pregnant peeps feel like they’re in a normal headspace and fully operational.
      You can do this! You’re gonna be a great parent!

    6. Marie*

      “On-going medical condition” is completely acceptable. I am super sick during my first trimester every time, but I also don’t want to announce my pregnancy so quickly. I told my boss and co-workers I was dealing with an on-going medical condition, and would sometimes need to leave the room immediately (so I could vomit in private) or keep a cold drink to sip on at all times (sour crystal light helped settle my stomach) or need a more flexible schedule sometimes (because I would have to redo my makeup or change my clothes again in the morning after vomiting and would need more time, or need to leave early for a dr apt, etc). They could see see me excuse myself to run to the bathroom or see how my face would switch back and forth between pale and flushed or see me sway when I stood up to quickly, so it was obvious there was something on and they were more understanding, but they didn’t push asking what it was because I simply referred to it as a “medical situation”.

      Congrats and good luck!

    7. roisin54*

      Congratulations!

      I’ve never been pregnant, but I have several co-workers who have been. Anyone who has ever previously spent enough time around a pregnant person or persons may either figure it out or at least have a strong suspicion before you tell them anything. If they’re not classless idiots, they won’t say anything though.

      The good thing about this is that the ones who have figured it out will cut you some slack. I had one co-worker who fainted in her office in what turned out to be early in her pregnancy. She hadn’t told anyone at work yet, but a couple of us thought she was so we didn’t press her on the fainting after she came back to work the next day and said she was okay.

    8. Policy wonk*

      Congrats! I had similar issues, so had to tell my boss right away. I found that sea-bands – these accu-pressure wrist bands – helped with nausea. And a desk fan was a must as stale air made things worse. Saltines helped too. Good luck!

  87. Pam Beesly*

    What are some work situations that you wish you would have handled differently?

    I have one from about a year ago, which I still think about.

    I was training a new employee who was taking my old position, as I was moving into a new role at my company. The new employee had been a “know it all” from day 1 (constantly interrupting, talking over me and others, acting like she knows everything already, etc.) I was telling her that in a specific Excel document that she would frequently be downloading and customizing from our company website, she’d have to fix A each time she used it, because of some goofy formatting thing. She immediately started talking over me as I was telling her this saying “oh no, you actually don’t have to do that, there’s a simple function you can do so that you don’t have to fix that every time.” I knew right away she didn’t know what she was talking about, but moved on.

    Literally less than a week later, she called me to her desk and said, “hey, such and such isn’t working in this Excel document.” I said (again), “yes, you have to fix A each time you use it because of how it’s formatted.” She acted like this was the first time she was hearing this, and said “oh wow, really? I wouldn’t have known that.” I know the reason she didn’t know that I had already gone over this was because she interrupted me the first time I had trained her on this specific thing, to tell me she knew how to do it a better way (which actually wasn’t a way to do it, at all). I wished so badly in the moment that I would have said “Yes, remember? You have to fix A each time you use it because of how it’s formatted. We just talked about this last week, but you interrupted me to tell me that you actually didn’t have to do that. Please take the time to listen next time.”

    Anyway, hindsight is 20/20. The employee later got fired for performance issues.

    1. The Man, Becky Lynch*

      This sounds exactly like the person I was tasked with training years ago when I left a previous position.

      She lasted two days alone without me before the boss was like “Yeah….this isn’t working out at all, I should have listened to Becky…” and the lady actually had the nerve to blame me for not training her well enough. Wherein the secondary boss was all “LOL Wut, no, I saw her training you, you can’t pin this on her!”

      You can snap back all you want at these people but it’s never going to change them [it sure feels good though, I know!]

    2. ThinMint*

      I had a Suzy Sunshine employee who would arrive about 30 minutes after everyone else in the morning. Long enough after that by that point the rest of us were all settled in, ready to get to work. She would go to each office and say hello and chat and it was a 5-10 minute conversation with each of us (8 of us). I am not a morning person and I tried every non-verbal or subtle message to end this. It didn’t work and I would seethe.

      I should have just used my dang words! “Suzy, the first few hours of my morning are when I focus best. Besides a quick hello, can you and I catch up later in the day?”

    3. Steggy Saurus*

      I had a very timid employee once ask to move her desk to a different floor of the building, nearer a different colleague than the one she had been sitting next to. She claimed she was being bossed around by the person she’d been sitting next to. I didn’t (and don’t) believe it – I think she was too sensitive, but I decided that I’d take her at her word and let her move.

      Big mistake. The colleague she moved to be nearer is a “saboteur” type and the timid one was a classic martyr. Putting them together created this horrible, toxic atmosphere of floor vs. floor in the building. I suffered and I couldn’t find a way to solve it. There were other issues too, but I really think this one decision exacerbated it. Fortunately for me, the martyr left for another job. And shortly after, I found a couple decent books on management styles and have learned to be a little less accommodating without cause and a little more willing to have confrontations when necessary. Bit by bit, I’m learning how to be a better manager, but it certainly doesn’t come naturally to me.

    4. Analytical Tree Hugger*

      Short version: I wish I had stood up for myself, instead of waiting for higher-ups to do so.

      When I was going through my first performance review at a previous job, OldManager listed “technical writing skills” as an area needing major improvement. The evidence was a one-page, first draft report I had written and sent with the question, “Is this the right general direction I should be going in?”

      For some context, a couple of months before my performance review, I had written a 10+ page report on a highly technical topic that higherups, from GrandBoss to GreatGrandboss said was well-written and very accessible (they are non-technical/experts in other areas). This report was not cited during my performance review at all. I was so shocked in the performance review discussion, I didn’t say anything about OldBoss’ assessment.

      Luckily, GrandBoss reviews the performance reviews before they are finalized and made OldBoss change “technical writing skills needs improvement” to “demonstrates excellent technical writing skills.” On one hand, I regret not standing up for myself. On the other, I hope that this was noted as a reason why OldBoss really shouldn’t be a manager (unfortunately, he still is, just not mine).

  88. Sally Sparrow*

    Another teacher question. Anyone have experience with private schools? Is negotiating salaey normal there? I know it’s not as much a thing in public schools. Thanks!

    1. Anonymous Educator*

      Lots of experience with private schools. Negotiating is totally normal. You may not get anything out of your negotiations (they might have internal steps they use based on years of experience and degree), but it’s certainly worth a try, and nobody will scoff and say “How dare you?!!!” Each private school sets its own rules about salary (again, some have their own internal formalized steps, and others don’t).

      1. Sally Sparrow*

        Thanks! Super helpful – really good to know that it’s not totally abnormal to negotiate.

    2. Minerva McGonagall*

      Hi! Teacher spouse. Spouse previously taught in private schools (7 in one year-he’s a music teacher so he traveled around) before getting the public job. In our experience, there was no negotiating on salary, and the teachers were paid less than the surrounding public school teachers. Negotiating public teacher salary in our state is not a Thing because it’s all set by the exact level of education they have (Bachelors, Bachelors +15, Masters, Masters +15, etc.).

      1. Anonymous Educator*

        Yeah, but just because your spouse wasn’t able to negotiate in those instances doesn’t mean it wasn’t worth trying. Did he actually get a response of “What? No one negotiates in private schools?” or more of a “No, this is what we can offer”?

        1. Minerva McGonagall*

          Not saying it isn’t worth it, just sharing our experience. He was shut down when he tried to negotiate-it was a take it or leave it situation and they seemed fairly annoyed for him trying.

    3. Muriel Heslop*

      Public school teacher; private school mom. Our private school definitely has wiggle room if they have someone they want to hire. It’s part of what our discretionary fund is for. Good luck!

  89. krysb*

    Apologies in advance that this is a long one.

    So, this is the thing that happened to me this week. I had written in here a couple of weeks ago about moving on from my job (something I’m still in process for). I work in litigation support at a company with three basic production departments: paper, e-discovery (EDD), computer forensics. I’m a manager in paper, but I perform a technical task (formatting) that is more related to (and really belongs in) e-discovery. On Monday, I was told by my VP that my formatting task is being moved to EDD.

    And I have to go with it.

    So, I’ll be starting at the bottom level of EDD, whereas I’m a manager with various managerial tasks in my current department. I lose all higher-level tasks and will be relegated to performing formatting, plus EDD processing tasks. Because I’m a good “individual technical contributor”. Never mind that I hate the work – my feelings vary between bored and rage when I work on such tasks. Honestly, if I had wanted such a role, it would have made more sense for me to have moved into it about 5 years ago. If I wanted to be an individual contributor, I’d have gone for a totally different career.

    Remember, I’m in the process of finishing my business administration bachelors, with concentrations in HR and ops management. I was basically told that degrees don’t matter, the work I’ve done over the past five years is useless, and that my only value to the company is in performing this one task. These, of course, were said in much nicer terms than how my emotions are interpreting them. Also, I asked about professional development in order to maintain higher-level, non-technical tasks, and I was told that that was what company quarterly priorities are for. Read: they’re not really, and it’s really difficult to translate into long-term outcomes and abilities. My higher-ups (my boss is MIA, long story) think this would be great for my career. Um, no, it’s not, unless I seek a position in another company that provides formatting and EDD work, which I DON’T WANT TO DO.

    I went home and cried for a few hours. I’m not a crier by nature. Honestly, I feel like I’m being demoted (but get to keep my pay) and put on a track that isn’t going to help me in the long term. Of course, I’m already looking to leave, but, seriously, how am I supposed to explain this if I put it on my resume? I’m ready to scream. I’m hoping they don’t announce the change at our weekly AHOD in the future, because I don’t know how I’d react. I don’t want to be congratulated for something that I see as insulting. I don’t want to look bitter, ungrateful, or angry, but I feel all of those things.

    1. Amtelope*

      I think you should look for another job, but I also think this should be easy to explain in interviews: “My management position in the paper department was eliminated when the company was restructured. I’m not interested in staying on as a full-time formatting and EDD specialist.” If you’re applying for other management positions, no one’s going to find it hard to understand why you don’t want to stay at your current company in a non-management role.

    2. Tinker*

      Ouch.

      I’ve been in a boat in some ways eerily similar to this, inclusive a lot of times of the missing manager bit, and I definitely get the feeling of shouting at the wind “but I’m not good at this thing and I hate it! why in the world can I not do the other, higher complexity thing that I am better at and more qualified for!”

      My conclusion about it is that sometimes people’s priorities get really weird in complex organizations — like, if there’s not an obvious source of pain that comes from paying manager money to do formatter work, but there is an obvious source of pain from having the formatter slot not filled by a body and heyyyyyy there you are.

      That’s maybe not super comforting. I do think though that it’d be relatively easy to explain to most people who have been around a bit — that your company had a reorganization and you ended up in a position that was intensely misaligned with your professional goals. Hence, as is entirely to be expected, you’re moving on.

      Is there anyone who’s seen your work on these management tasks and is available to give references — former manager who has moved on, that sort of thing? If so, it might help to reach out to them — if nothing else, it’s been reassuring to me to have someone say “no, really, I will tell other people that you do good work in this area”.

      I didn’t really follow this advice myself straight away (though in fairness I had some pretty compelling reasons not to) but I definitely think that starting a job search is a good move in situations like this. Continuing to grind away in an ill-fitting position is really demoralizing, and understandably so — meanwhile, you’ve got a strong case going that you’re the right person for whoever out there is hungry for a manager and not a formatter.

  90. Krickets*

    For those who work in higher ed:
    Are you in an “appointed” job/position/role? What is it like? Do you feel any job stability or instability?

    1. Aphrodite*

      I’m not sure what you mean by “appointed” so I hope this helps. I work as an administrative assistant at a two-year college in California. Specifically, I am in the adult education division so not on the main campus. These are regular positions since all support staff are classified and union protected. Thanks to our union’s local leadership we have excellent protections. Granted, they keep a few jerks in their jobs but most people seem to be helpful, wonderful and excellent at what they do

      Job stability is superb. The few times the college has wanted to reduce its workforce it has used voluntary retirements/resignations (without re-filling the roles) and once it used an incentive to encourage retirement. They are committed to avoiding layoffs if at all possible.

      How your work feels, I think, depends heavily on your supervisor and your department. There is college craziness, no doubt about it. (Those who have never worked in higher ed can see college campuses as pretty and benign places–but they are not. They seethe with pettiness, anger, craziness and more. The best way to survive happily here is to keep yourself above, or below, all that idiocy and focus on doing a great job and going home to have a great life.) But I have come to appreciate the steady pay, the stability, the outstanding benefits, a few co-workers, and now, after a lot of change, an utterly, totally awesome boss. He and I have classes and teachers who we describe as insane but we can rant and laugh about the latest hijinks. We are committed to helping each other and trust each other completely.

    2. deesse877*

      I think you mean reporting to someone, or yourself being someone, who serves at the pleasure of a board, president, provost or dean, without being tenured? Like being a VP for thusandsuch?

      Some places it’s very secure, other places very not, and it can even vary radically within larger institutions. To get any kind of answer about a specific situation, you need someone with deep institutional knowledge. However, here are 4 things that I’d take as signs of instability:

      1) New position with an untested, time-limited, or politically vulnerable funding source
      2) long-standing, entrenched turf wars at the institution, esp. with recent high turnover in comparable roles
      3) private and/or smaller institution, where buy-in to a specific mission or local identity is more important than regional or national ranking
      4) poor pay plus vague promises of advancement

  91. Frustrated EA*

    I’m two months into a new job as an Executive Assistant to the CEO at a mid-sized nonprofit. I really like my boss and I feel like we have already established a great rapport. We work well together and she trusts me and often gives me larger projects to manage and research to conduct, which I LOVE.

    By nature I am pretty efficient and always complete my work on time or ahead of schedule. However, my boss is a very busy person and by extension I am also very busy. Lately as my workload has increased, I find myself working 45-50 hours per week. I’m OK with this, but my particular organization has a culture of trying to preserve work/life balance and most people don’t really work outside the hours of 9-5.

    I am beginning to learn that a number of people at my organization are either somewhat lazy, or just aren’t good at time management and struggle with completing tasks on time. My boss is aware of this and has asked me to try to help a few people stay on task and on top of things. I don’t mind pitching it, but it’s starting to bother me when I work late one night because I helped a staff member complete his or her work, and then I see them leave right on time at 5PM.

    The other day we had an event we were hosting, and an important marketing item was missing. We have an events team who was basically in charge of preparing for and running the event. I ended up spending about 1-2 hours looking for the item because the last place the events team saw it was in my predecessor’s office (2 months before I started working here). My office was cleaned out when my predecessor left and the item was definitely nowhere in my space. Regardless, the events team couldn’t be bothered to spend their time looking for it, which was frustrating.

    I located the item in question and gave it to the events team. However, I found out the next day they did not bother breaking it down or taking it back to the office when the event was over. They just left it and I guess expected someone else would take care of it. They e-mailed me asking if I knew where it was. I wasn’t even at the event, and once again I had to track it down.

    This is just one example but I feel like things like this keep happening and I’m not really sure what to do. My boss just asked me to help out another colleague with her daily work, and while I want to say yes to every request, I’m worried if I keep on taking on other peoples’ work, it will eventually burn me out. I’m hesitant to speak to my boss about my concerns because she has so many other things on her plate, but I’m afraid this problem is going to worsen over time. Please help!

    1. fposte*

      Ooh, task creep. Basically, you’re a helpful, efficient person who says yes. You are pretty much office duck tape–the solution to every problem.

      I think it’s time to talk to your boss about expectations for your workload. Firstly, can you get her buy in to say no to other requests on your time, like the hunt-for-thingy thing? Secondly, can you lay out the workload and ask for her help in prioritizing? I would also recommend that when she assigns you something new you lay out what it will happen instead of. “Sure, I can help Bob, but that will mean the collating won’t happen until next week. Is that okay?”

      (I’m writing this assuming either you’re exempt or you’re getting paid OT for the overage–if you’re working unpaid OT, that’s a much bigger problem.)

    2. Wishing You Well*

      AAM has great responses for a boss who asks you to take on more work: “I can take on X, but I’ll have to drop Y or Z. What would you prefer?”
      You’re already working too many hours. Make sure your boss knows this. As for coworkers, start saying no to requests that are clearly not yours to solve. Take an assertiveness class, if it would help you. You’re not helping your nonprofit by burning yourself out because others won’t do their jobs or stay late.
      You can turn this around! Start flexing your assertiveness muscle – it gets stronger with use!

      1. Auntie Social*

        You can also say, “I can’t because of XY deadline, but Secondlaziestperson is just about finished with her ABC’s”. And your events team needs a list of items to have on hand a week in advance, in case someone misplaces something. We had an “items returned” list created after one of the interns thought our fundraiser’s contact sheets from participants were trash. (Ped hospital, summer fun fair and coloring contest, bottom of coloring form was parents’ info. After coloring contest–form trashed instead of being returned to hospital.) You had to state where every item was returned to, and date and sign it, because we had wasted $10k.

    3. Gumby*

      They e-mailed me asking if I knew where it was. I wasn’t even at the event, and once again I had to track it down.

      Is there a reason you couldn’t have just said “No, I do not know where it is. As you know I brought it to [place] at [time] but haven’t seen it since.”? You sound like an excellent co-worker and you probably like to be helpful but there is no reason to take on every task that someone mentions in your general vicinity. The boss asking you to help other people is a separate issue with good proposed replies already. But also consider if any of this is self-inflicted.

    4. Anonymouse for this*

      When I started as an EA with my old team I had a similar experience as I wanted to be helpful because I was new but like you it got out of hand. I ended up telling coworkers if you want me to do X for you then I’ll have to tell VP I can’t do Y for him – lo and behold they found the time/inclination to do their own tasks. One of them even admitted a while later that he was just being lazy and seeing what he could get away with.

  92. Jellybean*

    Had a few questions about references.

    1: A company I interviewed with asked me to send them a list of references, and a week later I got a generic rejection e-mail. Am I supposed to thank my references or tell them I got rejected? I have no idea if they were actually contacted or not.

    2: In talking with the above company, it never came up that I was laid off from my last job. I also didn’t list my last supervisor as a reference because of a “no references” policy, and because I don’t trust that supervisor.* Should I have proactively explained that I was laid off and that the company doesn’t allow supervisors to provide references? I’m wondering if it made me look bad to not say anything.

    *(After only getting good feedback at that job, the day before I was laid off my supervisor gave me my annual review and suddenly had a bunch of complaints. The complaints were vague and made no sense to me, and they had no examples of the complaints because they supposedly came from my teammates. When I told my teammates I’d gotten their feedback and asked for examples so I could figure out how to do better in the future, they said they didn’t give that feedback and I was doing a great job.)

    1. LawBee*

      I think the answer to both of these questions is “don’t worry about it”. I would bet a shiny nickel that the references were never contacted, and it would be weird to thank them for something they didn’t end up doing. They’re not sitting around waiting for a phone call, right? And as for the other, if the reason WHY you left the other company didn’t come up in your interview, and the supervisor can’t be contacted because of a no references policy, then I’d bet another shiny nickel that all the HR department does is confirm dates of hire.

  93. Lynne879*

    Has anyone ever brought up a company’s Glassdoor reviews during an interview? I have an interview with a major organization next week, and the reviews… aren’t great. There are consistent reviews of people complaining that the organization doesn’t pay well and that there is a terrible work-life balance. The only good things people talk about are the benefits and that working at this company is good for your resume.

    I will be interviewing with several people & I want to see 1) their response, because a hostile reaction can tell me all I need to know about what working there would be like and 2) if they know about these problems and if they’re willing to do anything to change it. I know that sometimes Glassdoor reviews may sometimes be left by only the very few, mad employees but the complaints in these reviews are consistent enough that it raises some alarm bells for me.

    1. S-Mart*

      I’ve done it. In my case they talked a good show about being aware of the issues in the reviews and gave steps they were taking to fix them. Unfortunately for me, these steps never came to pass and I left about a year later. I don’t think the company was necessarily lying to me about the plans, but the organization necessary to enact those ideas just wasn’t there (and didn’t appear to be coming any time soon).

    2. Hmmm*

      I have never brought up Glassdoor reviews specifically but I have used the site to tailor my questions about the company and look for inconsistencies in your interviewers’ responses. For example, if the reviews talk about high turnover you can ask, “What’s the turnover like at this company?” If they get hostile or tackle the question head on you can get the same results you are looking for without having to mention Glassdoor.

      1. Lynne879*

        Ah, I didn’t think about tailoring my questions like that! I might just do that for my interviews!

  94. Coverage Associate*

    I was at Chipotle yesterday for a work lunch I will expense, but I don’t like guacamole on my burritos.

    1. Lavender*

      LOL. I need to find what this is in reply to :)

      If we’re on the subject: of I’m at Chipotle and I get to expense lunch, I get guacamole on the side!

      1. fposte*

        There was a letter to AAM some time ago from an OP who was forbidden to expense guacamole at Chipotle. I’ll put the link in followup if I find it.

          1. Lavender*

            AHAHAHA!!! Thank you for the link fposte!

            I can just imagine how Bob would say and emphasize the word wasteful.

      2. ThinMint*

        If I got to expense lunch at Chipotle, gimme a large chips please. Those salty triangles of goodness *mmmmm*

  95. kate*

    Just wanted to thank everyone who weighed in on my suit for my academic job hunt. The preponderance of opinions seemed to be that I need something a bit more formal, so I am still on the hunt. Funnily enough on Tuesday I had a very low-stakes interview at a local community college for a Freshman Comp adjunct position and I wore the suit. In the end, they offered me a way more desirable literature course so what it lacks in polish it may make up for in good luck! :)

  96. Lavender*

    When the cat is away, the mice will play! AKA my supervisor is on a two week vacation and thankfully only one worker (“Jolene”) is going to be difficult during this time. The rest of our small team is fantastic!

    Yesterday Jolene, who works in another office hundreds of miles away, called my desk phone, work cell phone, and personal cell phone repeatedly in a 30 minute time span. Why? To tell me she had been out all morning taking care of things instead of being at work. She also claimed her computer had been down for hours and had just rebooted! Note, her computer supposedly goes down for hours, multiple times a week…we all know this is a lie, roll our eyes, and move on.

    This is not the first time Jolene has done this. It is so bizarre. Why are you “confessing” to me? I DON’T CARE. We do not work in the same office, therefore I would not know where your useless a— has been all morning. Sometimes I think she thinks I’ll cover for her if our supervisor asks me about her? The answer is absolutely not. Why not just keep this to yourself?!

    1. NotAPirate*

      Tell Jolene bluntly that youre not comfortable being privy to this knowledge and you’re going to mention it to boss.

      1. valentine*

        I can’t think why I wouldn’t pass it on or say I don’t take messages for my supervisor.

  97. Idling Time*

    Which other work related websites / blogs do you like to read? I love reading the advice and comments on this website and was wondering if there were other similar websites out there!

    1. liz*

      I’ve read Captain Awkward as it’s very frequently mentioned here – I like her advice but the commenters can be …… a lot to deal with.

      I’ll sometimes skim through Corporette or the parenting column at Slate, as well as Ask a Clean Person, but not as frequently as AAM.

    2. LGC*

      Work related? Actually, I listen to podcasts – namely, Work Life with Adam Grant and Safe For Work.

      (I also compulsively read and listen to Dear Prudence and I often want to shake the people who are writing in about work issues and yell, “WHY ARE YOU WRITING TO DANNY YOU SHOULD BE WRITING TO ALISON.”)

  98. Chip Hackman*

    Alright folks, any advice here is much appreciated:
    I am a contractor for the government and I work on a specific project with the project manager; the government just posted a position to be that project manager’s deputy. This is a job I’m basically doing now except right now I am a contractor. I’m going to apply for the job, but I’m not 100% sure how to talk about it in the cover letter that I am doing a lot of the work now anyway. Any advice?

    1. Hmmm*

      I would treat it like any other cover letter where you mention what you have been doing in your current position as a contractor for them. Mention how working with the current PM and with that government agency has been positive and you would like to become a permanent member of the team bringing X, Y, Z skills you have acquired by being a contractor on your current project. Possibly the largest issue for you is going to be how to summarize everything because it fits with most of what you do currently. In case you aren’t already aware, this site has great cover letter advice if you search by Topic.

      Good luck!

    2. Policy wonk*

      If this is USA Jobs you need to use the exact language from the announcement. If it says they are seeking a qualified llama groomer, do not say I am an expert llama groomer. Say I am a qualified… then explain your expert quslifications. In cases where there are a large number of applications a computer will do the first screen using keywords. If the keyword is “qualified” an applicant who uses “expert” won’t make the cut. Most government employees can tell you about someone who wasn’t deemed qualified for a job they’d been doing in an acting capacity for a year or more.

  99. JN*

    I recently saw a job advertised on Linked In which had the below right towards the top of the advert, before even listing the job duties. I’m just curious, does anyone have any idea why they might have made such a big deal of this? It sounds kind of Sammy, but the job was posted on the official Linked In of one of the most well known retailers in my country so I don’t think it is. Surely if employees don’t provide their bank details, they will just lose out by not being paid?

    “Should you be successful in your application, your offer will be subject to and conditional upon you providing your bank account details before your agreed start date”

    2. RandomU...*

      Sounds scammy… The only thing I can think of is that they only do direct deposit for paychecks so that’s a requirement of getting paid… but I think that’s a generous interpretation. I’m not sure that it’s legal to just not pay someone because they don’t give you an account to deposit into.

      Who knows maybe they’ve had a bunch of successful candidates that they couldn’t employ because they had no way to pay them. It does sound odd though.

    3. Not Me*

      Employers can require employees to be paid via direct deposit (in the US, there are some stipulations around it) but the way this is worded sounds scammy to me too.

    4. Elizabeth West*

      NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO

      No legitimate job will do this. Most places will give you a form to fill out for direct deposit WHEN you get hired, but there’s no way it should be in the job post. And no legitimate offer will be contingent on getting your account details.

      This sounds like a scam. Report it to LinkedIn.

    5. Llellayena*

      They’re disguising a crappy hiring practice of not hiring poor people (who don’t have bank accounts) by saying they only pay by direct deposit so we only hire people with bank info. It’s discrimination by economic status.

  100. Karen from Finance*

    I’ve managed to go one week without having something terrible to rant about, so insted here’s a funny story of office weirness.

    This week on 10/6, HR sent a Happy Birthday email for someone whose birthday is actually on 6/10. But because the whole company said Happy Birthday to him and it became an office joke, today he bought pastries for the whole floor as if it’d actually been his birthday. But today is also the CEO’s birthday, and he also bought croissants for the whole company. And today is also Friday, which means it was the turn of someone in my team to bring pastries for our team.

    On top of that, there are a few sick people, people on vacation and this one guy on a keto diet, which amounts to 8-10 pastries per capita by my estimate. And we’re talking: croissants, churros, cream- and dulce de leche-filled pastries. We’re expecting invasions from other floors.

    If there’s ever been a situation that’s made more clear our utter inability to coordinate, this one’s it.

    1. Karen from Finance*

      Please flip the months on my second paragraph. On June the 10th the email went out for someone whose bday is October 6th.

    2. The Man, Becky Lynch*

      Yesssss food floods!

      I’m still eating food from a meeting we held the other day…where I learned that nobody at this place likes meat trays, which is still shocking to my system. So here I am, for breakfast eating salami. The cheese platter was a hit at least.

      At least there’s an upstairs to invade. I’m two minutes away from taking some food to the homeless encampment that’s close by. No joke, I’m tired of seeing the food.

      1. Karen from Finance*

        I was one of the last to leave the office, and nobody who was left wanted to take them, so I left the office with a baker’s dozen of these things. I was planning on taking them to a baby shower tomorrow but I was just told there’s already too much food there too!

    4. I Work on a Hellmouth*

      Oh man, I would totally be celebrating not having to be polite and not gorge on a million churros!

    5. EvilQueenRegina*

      I think our “inability to coordinate” event was a potluck end of year lunch about 3 years ago, when ex-manager sent round an email asking everyone to respond to it with what they were bringing. As no one could see anyone else’s replies, it somehow ended up that a LOT of people volunteered for pork pies, and eventually had to be emailed to ask if they could bring something else instead so that we didn’t have too many.

      Next time there was such an event, I had to suggest a more public sign up so that people could see what was already being brought and that wouldn’t happen again.

      1. pentamom*

        This is one of the few situations where reply-all actually makes sense in a large group.

      2. Arts Akimbo*

        “Too many pork pies” does not compute! :D I would be in… dare I say it… hog heaven?

        I’ll show myself out.

  101. Anonymousaurus Rex*

    Hey y’all! I found out this week that my request to become remote was approved! I am moving across the country for my partner to attend grad school, and this is a major major relief to be able to keep my job amidst all the other big changes a cross-country move entails. A huge thanks to everyone who gave me advice on how to approach this discussion with my boss. Turns out the request had to be approved by our senior leadership team, including our CEO, so it ended up being an even bigger ask than I expected. But totally worth it!

    New questions for anyone who has done this before: What questions do I need to be asking HR as I make this transition? So far all I’ve been told is that I’m approved to become remote as of July 7th, but no idea what that means for my taxes, health benefits, or even IT setup. (I do work remotely already much of the time so I’ve got VPN access etc. set, so maybe nothing will change there.)

    1. Colette*

      – Who pays for equipment you need (printer, monitors, desk, phone, internet connection)?
      – What do they need from you to set up you in your new state?
      – How will you handle timezone differences?
      – Will you be expected to travel to the main office, and, if so, how often?
      – Do your benefits change?

    2. Toodie*

      Ask your company who’s responsible for what: ISP, office supplies, office setup stuff (desk, chair, phone, fax, etc.)

      Ask how often (if ever) you’ll be expected to be at your regular office for a check-in or team meeting or whatever.

      Ask your boss what his/her expectations are in for time at work. Some bosses want you to have exactly the same butt-in-chair hours as always, others are more flexible. If there’s a time zone involved, cover that, too. (Are your hours 8-4 Central time or Eastern time?)

      Good luck! I find being a remote employee both incredibly freeing and incredibly isolating.

  102. Angwyshaunce*

    Does anyone have experience with their company just – falling apart?

    I’ve been here at my first professional job for fourteen years, since college. It’s a very small company, and I’ve worked my way up near the top as a head engineer. The pay is great, the work is stimulating, and I have lots of freedom since management is lax as long as the work gets done.

    We’ve had our ups and downs over the years, but we’ve always managed to pull through, mostly because the other engineer and I have been able to keep the work moving.

    But two weeks ago, our other engineer (who is extraordinary at what he does) left us to pursue greater things. And our support staff had been decimated since last year. It now feels like things have finally began a slow collapse.

    I’m scared for what might come. Finding a new job might be necessary, but I worry about struggling with a lower salary and losing the freedoms I have grown so very used to.

    Anyone else ever been in a similar situation? I’d appreciate hearing about how other people dealt with something like this.

    1. Just Elle*

      Just because things are going to be different, doesn’t mean they’re falling apart. Don’t get me wrong, a strong team where you have an amazing partnership with coworkers is amazing. But, that coworker isn’t the only coworker who can function the same way. So I’d turn my focus to hiring a really, really excellent replacement who will be a good fit for your small team. Even if you don’t manage the hiring process, ask to be very involved. And find one fast so your downtime is limited / the slow collapse can be reversed quickly.

    2. The Man, Becky Lynch*

      I’ve seen it countless times, it’s the sad reality of business, especially if you’re in a small one with a lot less cushion involved to try to salvage in times of decline.

      The good news is that you’ve worked a long time and you have a lot of experience, so I don’t know why you are worried about a lower salary! I made much more each time I moved from one place to another, including a long time spent in a company for over a decade.

      You can still find the freedoms at another company as well. So I think a lot of this internalized fear may be unfounded but completely natural, since it’s been 14 years and you’re happy so of course the demise feels like it’s going to hurt a lot more personally than it will in reality!

      You keep an eye out for opportunities. Just like that person you lost two weeks ago to one of them! And try to stay focused on your work, keep enjoying yourself for as long as you possibly can.

      You, the single person you are, cannot save this place. It’s leadership’s fault. The ownership or shareholders are failing and that’s on them.

      1. Angwyshaunce*

        Thank you for your words! They definitely helped.

        One of my issues is that I am in a very comfortable rut, and I’ve never been good with change. Another is anxiety because, well – I’ve never actually job hunted before. I got this job originally as an intern through a referral, and I’ve been here ever since. Also, most of my knowledge on the industry has been learned here, so my skills aren’t as fleshed out as I’d like. (I was considering going back to school, but that doesn’t seem like a good idea right now).

        I plan on riding this out for a while until I get other life things out of the way, then maybe start seeing what else is out there.

        1. The Man, Becky Lynch*

          I absolutely understand your spot. I hadn’t interviewed for 10 years and was comfortable until I had to leave for my own sanity/needing a job that wasn’t at a company circling the drain, etc. It actually forced me to face my fears/anxiety and ended up helping me a lot in terms of emotional/mental growth, so I hope if it comes down to that, you have a similar good experience!

          It’s scary to be comfortable and start feeling the boat rock, you get that ‘Do I even remember how to swim?!” feeling sinking in. That’s all in your head, you are resilient, smart and will land on your feet when the time comes that things change.

    3. Colette*

      I worked for a large company that fell apart. I got laid off and took a 30% pay cut, and … I was fine. I’m still not up to the salary I was making there. (Ah, high tech bubble, I miss your pay!)

      What kind of pay cut could you afford to take? Look at your budget/expenses and figure it out. That doesn’t mean you have to take a cut – you should expect market rate – but it helps to know what you really need.

      But also, if two engineers are keeping the company afloat, I wonder about the company management. It might be a good idea to look at what’s out there, even if you end up staying.

      1. Angwyshaunce*

        On your last point – yes, management here sucks in that regard. They’ve always treated me very well, but what good is high pay and flexible hours if the company goes under from mis-management? We suffer severely from Founder’s Syndrome.

    4. Mr. Tyzik*

      I was once in the situation of a team falling apart, not the company. I took a lateral move when I saw that we weren’t getting staffed up and the work was shrinking.

      If it looks like your situation isn’t going to improve, start looking for other jobs. Don’t assume the salary will be lower; with your credentials and experience you should be able to command a salary commensurate to what you make now.

      Best of luck to you!

    5. Glomarization, Esq.*

      I was with a start-up one time that collapsed. Unfortunately, I didn’t see it coming, so I worked for a few weeks longer than they were able to pay me. Since my advice comes from a worst-case scenario kind of lens, I’d suggest looking at your finances, seeing where you can cut some expenses in your budget, and upping your savings now that you see there may be some writing on the wall. Good luck!

    6. Gumby*

      I have worked someplace where it seemed like every other week a new high-visibility employee left. And these things can snowball. There were times that I felt like “if one more [job role] quits we’re not going to be able to keep doing our work!” It was a small company and our staffing numbers dropped by almost 50%. But that company slowly hired new people and re-built the expertise and survived.

      What made the situation interesting instead of panic-inducing is that I habitually maintain 6-12 months worth of living expenses in an emergency fund. It’s not easy to build up but it is completely worth it for peace of mind reasons. At least for me. It’s why I didn’t run out looking for jobs when it looked bad – I could afford to ride things out and see what happened. But if that isn’t something you want to do, there’s no shame in starting a low key job search now.

      And you might feel better being proactive instead of just pondering scary “what ifs.” If you know what jobs and salaries are available, you can plan based on knowledge rather than worries. Maybe salaries are actually higher than you think. Maybe you will need to revisit your budget and make a plan for how to get by on a lower salary. Maybe there’s an amazing job with even more freedom. Maybe you’ll have to suck it up and deal with less in the short term but there is a path to a higher-ranking job where you can get that freedom back or have more decision-making authority.

      1. Angwyshaunce*

        >> “if one more [job role] quits we’re not going to be able to keep doing our work!”

        We’ve been there. Last year was really bad – after some layoffs due to slow business, two department heads unexpectedly quit, leaving our production staff almost empty. Things seemed dire then, but we managed to pull through somehow. But losing production employees (even though they’re skilled) is like getting a flat tire – an inconvenience, but we can be on the road again shortly. Losing our main engineer is like blowing the transmission – we may never drive again.

        >> What made the situation interesting instead of panic-inducing is that I habitually maintain 6-12 months worth of living expenses in an emergency fund.

        Several people have brought up the issue of short-term finances, and I would like to address that. I have developed a meticulous and thorough budget that I think is pretty impressive. I don’t even use debit, as I carefully track and plan every cent that comes and goes from my bank accounts. I even wrote custom finance software that lets me not only track my finances, but “subtract out” money set aside for other things. So I’ve been squirreling away money for a while now, and have at least six months of emergency “unemployment” funds. I suppose my major worry here is that I have expensive hobbies, and am used to spending pretty freely, which is a perk that would be hard (but bearable) to lose.

        >> Maybe there’s an amazing job with even more freedom.

        With respect to the freedom – maybe, but I’m not so sure. Not because my current job is magical, but because the same things that give me these freedoms (lax management) is the same thing that leaves us unprepared for hard times. Two sides of a coin.

        Anyway, I really appreciate all that you’ve written. Thank you so much for sharing your thoughts!

    7. Angwyshaunce*

      I just wanted to thank everyone who read and responded to my query. I did not respond to every comment, but I read and considered them all carefully, and am very appreciative for the feedback and support. It means so much when others are willing to share their insights and advice.

      An online community is only as good as its contributors, and the contributors here are amazing. You are all amazing. Thank you so much!

      1. Angwyshaunce*

        Oh, and such a community could not exist without an exceptional person at the helm, so thank you Alison!

    8. The Other Dawn*

      I’m late to the party, but I’ll add my two cents. And I apologize that this got so long!

      I was in this position around 2012/2013. The bank I was working for since the day it opened in 2001 was facing a shutdown–we couldn’t get the capital we needed to survive. I started my banking career in 1996 at 21 years old with a big bank. That bank merged with another and sold off three branches, and then my bank was born. When my bank was finally shut down in late 2013, I’d been at the same place for 17 years (counting the prior bank). I had all the institutional knowledge that comes with being there from Day One. I had tons of experience, I’d volunteered for a lot of projects and such, and I was the body they threw at something when there was no one else to do it. Though I knew I was underpaid, I placed much more value on the experience I gained.

      When the bank was finally shut down, I felt like I had a lot to offer to another bank. And then reality set in. I’d been in one place for 17 years, which meant I hadn’t job searched or interviewed in that long. I quickly realized that although I had a lot of experience, it was very diverse. And the experience I had was limited in that I was in a very small bank with very basic technology and limited products and services. But because of my diverse experience, I had several paths I could take; however, when looking at job postings, it seemed like I was never a good match because they wanted X years in Y area, or certification in Z area. I had a really hard time trying to decide which direction to go. Unfortunately, I picked the wrong one. Partly because I needed a job, partly because I was reeling from the shock of being in one place for 17 years and then suddenly being unemployed, and partly because I was burned out from those 17 years and thought I wanted a plain old “9 to 5” banking job with no management responsibility where I could focus on one thing. I spent 10 months of Hell in that next job. I cried everyday. Part of it was a poor match with the manager, but it was definitely a poor decision on my part, too.

      I finally landed another job and was much, much happier and I was there for about four years before they announced they were selling to another bigger, local bank. So I then had to figure it all out all over again. But this time, due to being in two more banks since the first one, managing more people, and gaining more focused experience in one area, I felt much more prepared to find another job. I made a list of things i love to do, things I can live with, and things I hate to do. I also listed my must-haves, things I can take or leave, and my deal-breakers (culture, benefits, etc.). What I figured out is that I don’t want to be in banking anymore. I want to be at one of the vendors that serves banks. Unfortunately that didn’t work out; however, I did find another banking job that I’m relatively happy with for now, and I try to see it as an opportunity to gain more experience that will serve me when I make the switch I really want to make. I’ve been there about three months now. I would say that while I do like the people and the culture, as well as the challenges I’m expected to tackle, I’m lukewarm most days.

      So what did I learn through all this? Change is scary, but it’s good. It’s what helps you grow. If you never change, you miss opportunities. I’ve learned to love, love, love change. That’s probably the biggest thing I learned about myself: I NEED change to be happy. (I think it really scares one of my direct reports at the new job, but, well, I can’t not make badly needed changes because one person doesn’t like change.) Also, being in one place can be limiting sometimes. And finally, start job searching now if you think the business will collapse. Don’t wait until it does because then you may end up in a job or company you hate because you were desperate for a job.

      Good luck!

  103. Just Elle*

    How do you handle falling hopelessly behind / burnout at work?

    Some background: I’m a project manager with a specific skillset. So, I manage projects but am also an individual contributor. There are two projects at work that are really exciting and high profile, but neither could afford a full time project person. So, I agreed to work both half time. Except, it’s become glaringly apparent that really, I’ve signed up for two, full time, high-stress jobs. In the beginning I was compensating by working 10 hour days, plus Saturdays. But now I just can’t bring myself to spend even one extra hour at work. And so things are getting worse.

    Both jobs run January-August and I’m quickly running out of time to finish them. But just meetings alone (which I’m supposed to host) are taking up 20 hours a week. And when I do blessedly get a few straight hours to be productive… I just, don’t. I stare at the blank screen feeling completely burned out and mad at myself for not just MAKING PROGRESS so that I’ll feel less stressed and everything will be better.

    The nature of my individual contribution is that its all or nothing – if I don’t finish it, the projects won’t be successful. I can’t really cancel half of the work scope or anything like that. And these are projects I’m extremely passionate about and WANT to succeed.

    I’ve tried talking with both project bosses, and both their reaction is “well, get the other project to stop asking for more than their fair share of time.” Again, its not like they can actually reduce my work scope (short of bringing on a full time project person which they don’t have money for).

    Basically, I will spend 75% of my time one week catching up from all the fires that sprung up on one job due to my neglect, and in the meantime the other job catches on fires and I have to spend 75% of my time the next week putting out those fires. Its exhausting, and its getting to the point where I’m just not doing a good job. I’m forgetting to follow up on important things and its impacting the business.

    1. Colette*

      Are these really essential meetings? Do they have to happen as frequently as they are? If so, do you really have to be the one to run them?

      I’m a big fan of to-do lists, and I would recommend that you keep one for each project. That way when you get that work time, you don’t have to start by figuring out what to do. Do something off the list, then cross it off. (Instant progress!)

      Can you meet with both project bosses together and have a frank conversation about what is realistic? I’m pretty sure “both projects fail” is not the goal.

      1. Just Elle*

        I could try getting them together. I’ve talked to my supervisor and he just shrugs and feels sorry for me. Maybe I just need to get over my ego and change phrasing from “this is a ton of work for me” to “I’m not going to be successful here.”

        I do live and die by lists but these days my lists are huge, so I’ve implemented a second list where only 3 top priority items are allowed on the list at a time.

        1. valentine*

          Something’s got to give and it can’t be you.

          One project has to go. Focus on the one you think you can complete by August, with/-out extra resources. Make a realistic (!) plan to do so. If that’s not possible, then it’s not possible and you confess and ask your supervisor how to proceed. If it’s possible, sit down with your supervisor and lay it out. They may be surprised you’ve been working 60+-hour weeks spinning your wheels. The second-best time to be direct and plainspeaking about the status is now.

          The meetings have to go. If it really takes 30 minutes to plan something, you can’t be the mediator. Either the team deals directly with the source, you devise another way to do this (Fewer people at the meetings? Just two of you on the phone?), or someone else takes these meetings.

          Block hours first thing and whenever else you feel most productive to work on the one project and guard it like Gollum.

    3. NotAPirate*

      Can you switch the meetings to emailed updates or a slack type chat board? Meetings waste so much of your time.

      1. Just Elle*

        I despise status meetings and definitely have tried to cancel as many as possible / switch to having people provide status on a group OneNote.
        Unfortunately a big part of my job is interfacing with other groups. EG my team identifies a need, I go to the group who is capable of providing thing and make a plan to get it with them. I basically have about 5 such half-hour meetings a day. Obviously they’re never cleanly back to back so I end up having only a half hour to try to be productive in. And I’ve tried scheduling them better but everyone else is just as busy as me so you end up fitting it in where you can.

    4. PharmaCat*

      I find it helpful to raise the issue in terms of risk. “Hey mgrs, just want you to know this project is at risk because I cannot complete the critical path tasks, while providing project mgmt support to 2 projects. In the past I have compensated by working additional hours, but am unable to continue. Let’s meet to align priorities, as well as identifying alternate resources.” Then be explicit and realistic about what you can do in 40ish hours per week. Meet with your actual line manager. You cannot fix this without support.

    5. Gumby*

      If you are doing PM you know there are only 3 basic things you could do – descope, extend the timeline, or add resources. There is no reality in which a magic solution will suddenly appear that doesn’t affect one of the 3 constraints.

      So maybe one of the projects needs to bring in someone else to do your PM stuff. Maybe one needs to bring in someone to cover your individual contributor stuff. But *something* needs to change. It sounds like the project bosses don’t know the true extent of the problem. Or are pretending not to because they are also hoping for a magical solution where everything works out without them having to make any concessions. So pull out your best stakeholder management techniques to make them understand and come to some sort of agreement as to how to solve it.

  104. Me--Blargh!*

    I have a weird question, and it likely will amount to nothing, but since I’m 90% anxiety with a dash of panic, I need to run a just-in-case.

    A friend sent me a link to a creative mentorship at which I have little chance, but he thinks I should go for it. If miraculously I did get accepted, I would have a little less than three weeks to relocate to a very high-COL area. Mentees get a stipend, not a salary, so it would be 1099 income (ugh, nightmare taxes) and is barely enough to live on there. This is playing with the big kids and a HUGE leap for me to even apply and an even bigger one if it actually happened (oh god please universe, because I need a break). But I’m scared. So scared.

    The question is not should I apply (I absolutely am). It’s this: I HAVE to find a job soon; the relative who is helping me needs to stop. I’m okay with something here for the moment, but how would I deal with this if I were picked? I would find out later in the summer and then have to bail pretty much immediately.

    I don’t think I could mention it to an employer because the chance is so small. I could try temping again here, but I’ve had little success; it’s a no-growth market with too many jobs I just can’t do. I could just get a shitty job either here or in BiggerCity and then ditch it. If I sell my house and move in with my relative in BiggerCity (uggggh nooooooo) I’ll already have packed and purged and be ready to go. If nothing happens, then I’d at least be in BiggerCity, and maybe it would be easier to find a job there. (I will be heartbroken if I don’t get it but not surprised, because my life is like that.)

    I don’t know. I need to talk to Other Relative and see what we could do. What do you think?

    1. Colette*

      1. Apply (as you’ve said you’re going to do)
      2. Find a job; most places will understand if you explain that you got a long-shot mentorship you didn’t think would come through. Apologize profusely and leave that job off your resume.
      3. Purge regardless; get ready to make a move if you have to. (Have you applied for jobs in Bigger City? Because that might be a good idea regardless.)

      1. Me--Blargh!*

        I have been applying there, but no one is biting, probably because I’m here. It’s only a 200-mile drive, so moving there for a job would be NBD, but to them, I guess it might as well be 200 light years away. :P

        1. WellRed*

          Why aren’t you using relative in bigger city’s address? I had to do that, back in the stone ages. And I agree with other commenters, it’s time to shake things up. What you’ve been doing isn’t working (not your fault).

          1. Me--Blargh!*

            Because I would STILL have to move. I couldn’t start right away. That would definitely come out if someone offered me a job, and I don’t want an offer to get yanked because I lied.

            1. Analytical Tree Hugger*

              Why are you unable to start right away…? I’m not clear on your current living situation or what living with Other Relative in BiggerCity. Would this work?

              1) Apply for a job/metorship using Other Relative’s address.
              2) Receive a job offer, before you’ve moved to BiggerCity.
              3) Live with Other Relative during the work week (whenever that is) and spend weekends packing up/moving.

              It would be unpleasant, but moving shouldn’t take more than a few weeks, even if you only do weekends. I agree that you should be purging/readying yourself to move regardless.

    2. self employed*

      Hi EW, I would pack, sell, and move. How many years has it been, 2? 3? Time to start fresh in a better job market. If you get the mentor ship, awesome, but if not, you would be better positioned to get work. Wishing you the best of luck.

      3. Me--Blargh!*

        Not sure it IS better; that’s part of the problem. If I can’t get a job there from here, maybe I can’t get a job there at all, or not a better one. I don’t want to get stuck there, either. Also, there really is nowhere for me to go. My relative doesn’t really have room for me. :(

        God, I really need Other Relative to call. me. back. They might have a suggestion.

    3. Fiona*

      Apply. Proceed with life as though you’re not going to get the creative mentorship. Don’t freak out over things that haven’t happened yet. You’re putting the cart before the horse. I know this because I do the. exact. same. thing.

      My mom has a phrase: “More information.” You simply don’t have enough information now to panic.

      Good luck!!

  105. Itsaa me, Mario!*

    Okay, so I get that of course some individuals are more social than others. But what about new employees who don’t try to at least somewhat mold with the office culture?

    I work in a very small office…6 full time office employees, and we work in open cubicles. When I (and everyone else) get in the office each morning, we say a quick “morning” as we walk by one another’s desks, and “night” when we leave in the evenings. However, we have a new employee and she NEVER says anything as she walks past our desks (or anything, for that matter). In fact, she walks by quickly and with her head down as if she’s avoiding everyone. It’s not that she’s shy. She’s very talkative on work matters (and a little arrogant, even). It just seems a bit cold to me that she won’t doesn’t even say ‘hi’ or ‘bye’ to anyone (no one is expecting her to have a personal conversation, even). She also wears headphones 100% of the time. There’s no policy saying she can’t do this, but many times she has almost ran into me (and others) while walking because she has her headphones in, and is usually on her phone while walking. She never says so much as “oh sorry! I wasn’t looking where I was going!” when this happens. I should also mention we don’t work in a super busy office. I know she has a lot of down time, so it’s not a “oh, she’s just trying to focus” kind of thing. I should also mention that our office is a very kind, welcoming group. Everyone was very nice to her when she started, making it clear that she could come to us with any questions. Am I overreacting to her behavior?

    1. Zap R.*

      I mean, you’re right that not everyone’s a social butterfly and it’s not really a big deal if she doesn’t say hi or bye, but repeatedly bumping into people and not apologizing is rude as heck and super weird.

      1. valentine*

        It just seems a bit cold to me that she won’t doesn’t even say ‘hi’ or ‘bye’ to anyone
        I hope you can let this go. So she’s kind of in her own world when she isn’t talking to you about work. Why not let her be? A hi/bye, even if it’s just one to the group each time, may be the proverbial straw.

    2. Colette*

      I’d like to push back on the idea that she’s not shy – she may be comfortable talking about work but not know how to start other conversations.

      I agree it’s a little weird that she doesn’t apologize, but at the same time, I think this is one of those situations where you don’t know what’s going on in someone else’s head, so it’s a good practice to assume good intentions.

      1. Entry Level Marcus*

        That’s how I am. You would never guess I was shy and socially awkward if you only saw me talking about work. I find more structured, goal-oriented, and “formal” interactions to be easier than more informal interactions people have when socializing.

      2. New Job So Much Better*

        I sent in a letter a while back about the younger folks who work in my office. While very pleasant by phone or email regarding work matters, if you pass them in the hall they stare at their feet. They don’t smile and nod. I received a lot of comments from other younger workers that they don’t know how to make small talk or eye contact and feel weird smiling in the hall. They don’t know if they should say “hi” as they go by if they have already greeted someone that day. It is still very weird to me, but obviously it’s not the social slur I had thought it was.

      3. Interplanet Janet*

        +1 on chatty about work =/= not shy

        If I am sure we have something to talk about, I could talk all day long. But thirty seconds of filler chatting puts me in a social panic. And ZOMG the horribleness of saying good morning to everyone along with the uncertainty of whether that’s the end of the conversation or I’m supposed to chat more or whatever? *shudder*

        I listen to music when I’m concentrating and podcasts if I’m doing something mindless, because I’ve got a wee bit of ADHD, and it helps me stay interested and on task.

        Maybe initiate the “good morning” as she walks by? Smile and wave? I know I’ve been guilty of worrying that people are being nice because it’s polite to be nice to the new kid, but that they don’t really WANT to talk to me.

  106. Zap R.*

    So, here’s a question: I started a new job eight months ago. Five months in, my direct report wrote a long email to HR detailing why I should be fired and stating that she was quitting because of me. Her complaint was that I assigned her tasks instead of asking her if she’d like to do them. (My predecessor was kind of laissez-faire.) She also mentioned that “several people” have been complaining about me and think I’m incompetent. I know this because she CC’d me on the email.

    I went through a pretty significant office bullying situation at my last job (it ended in a human rights tribunal) so this whole situation was extremely triggering. She quit in a huff but it’s been months and I’m still terrified of my direct reports and paranoid that all my coworkers hate me. I just barely make over minimum wage, so therapy isn’t an option. Is there any way of getting past this?

    1. Colette*

      Can you remind yourself that they don’t have to like you, and that’s OK? Are they doing what you need them to do and behaving politely? If so, that’s all that’s required.

      Conversely, you don’t have to like them either, as long as you are treating them fairly and with respect.

      Can you have regular check-ins with your manager to talk about how you’re doing and how you can improve? That might help you get perspective.

      1. Zap R.*

        My manager is off-site so check-ins with her are difficult to arrange. After the incident, she did say to ignore the email and that she thought I was doing a great job, but I can’t shake the feeling that everyone hates me.

        1. Colette*

          They probably don’t hate you, but … so what if they do? You can’t control how they feel, you can only control what you do. (And if they do hate you, that’s likely to be as much (or more) about them than it is to be about you.)

          1. Zap R.*

            Grew up in an emotionally volatile household. Controlling how everybody felt was the only way to stay safe. It’s hard to unlearn.

            1. Colette*

              I know you said therapy isn’t an option right now, but please consider it when you are able to. In the meantime, tell yourself good stuff, not bad. Instead of “they all hate me”, try “I’m doing the best I can” or “I trust that my manager would tell me if there was a problem” or “I’m impressed with how hard my team is working”.

              And try to set up regular touch points with your manager (even if they’re monthly), and ask for feedback.

    2. Just Elle*

      Can you just…. ask them what they think of you? Maybe make it anonymous to encourage honesty?
      Knowing is way better than not knowing, because if there’s a common theme you can at least do something about it.

      1. RandomU...*

        No, it’s not up to the employees to validate the bosses feelings. This course of action is unwise on many different levels.

        Zap R has gotten the only answer that matters, from the boss saying ignore it. And the subtext answer from HR, which was silence.

        1. Just Elle*

          I don’t think it’s good to rely on employees to validate feelings. But 360 reviews are incredibly useful things used in many organizations (when used properly). If you’re walking around feeling like everyone hates you, maybe you really do have one or two things you could improve on that would make people much happier.

          1. RandomU...*

            I agree they can, to see where a manager is lacking in skill or doing well. But this wouldn’t be about that. It would be “How much do you like me”. This is what I’m getting from some of the later comments about the OP managing others’ emotions.

            1. Zap R.*

              Yeah, I don’t think it’s necessarily fair to my direct reports to ask them to validate me. I could frame it as a professional development thing, but deep down, I’d know I’d just be doing it for my own piece of mind and I’d feel icky about that.

              1. RandomU...*

                FWIW, I didn’t think that’s what you were going to do or wanted to do.

                It sounds like a combination of inexperience, some crappy employees, and some baggage that you still carry. None of those factors indicate that you are or are not a good supervisor or your ability to be one.

                You sound very self aware of your challenges, and maybe even a little too hard on yourself (Self reflection as a boss is a good thing, but overzealous second guessing is not).

                I don’t have any additional advice to offer, but did want to lend some support.

                2. Silver Radicand*

                  This is really good advice.

                  All I can add is this: Managing is Hard. Even if things don’t always work out in the “ideal” way does not mean you are a bad manager. You deal with people and they will always bring you something new to deal with. And the range of possible outcomes is far greater than in most other positions. When you are newer as manager or supervisor, lean heavily into your manager’s opinion of how things are going. Once you have been around the block a few times, it will be a lot easier to feel confident in your opinion of a situation.

    3. Zap R.*

      Like, it’s entirely possible that I just suck at my job and deserved this but I would like to get an outside opinion.

      1. RVA Cat*

        If you’re supervising people but still barely above minimum wage, it’s your job and employer that sucks! I’m surely you are doing far better than they’re paying you to do.

    4. Troutwaxer*

      Her complaint was that I assigned her tasks instead of asking her if she’d like to do them.

      Maybe someone else can weigh in on this, but my understanding is that as a manager, you don’t say “Michelle, file the Llama-Grooming reports.” Instead, you say, “Michelle, would you please file the Llama-Grooming reports?” and Michelle, being a wise employee, understands that even though you phrased it as a question, it was actually an order, and she gets the reports filed ASAP.

      2. RandomU...*

        IMHO there’s nothing wrong with the first one.

        “Michelle, file the reports, then move on to the paper clip sorting, when that’s done come find me, thanks.”

        “Michelle, I need you to file the reports, get started on the paper clip sorting, and when you’re done I’ll have another project ready. Thanks.”

        Sure you can phrase it in a question, but it’s not wrong if you don’t. I’m not saying to be rude about the direct approach, but there’s nothing inherently wrong with it.

        1. Zap R.*

          That’s the thing: I was so timid when I started that was too afraid to phrase things as directives and it still made her mad.

          She was good friends with another direct report who quit right after I started. When I asked him to do things he would literally storm off huffing and puffing and then give me the silent treatment for days. I think they’d just been with the company too long and were angrier with the change than with me, but it was still me who got bullied as a result.

          1. irene adler*

            My take: you are fine.
            The behaviors you describe by your reports are out of line (inmates trying to run the asylum, so to speak. Can’t have that.).
            You are unsure if your approach is acceptable management practice (it is, but you lack a bit of confidence to see this).

            Can management see their way to sending you to a supervisor training class? That might help with understanding what to expect from your reports (i.e. proper employee behavior). And what constitutes proper management technique from you. Such a class would boost your confidence in your management ability.

            And, Michelle is a brat. Don’t allow her to take up any more space in your brain.
            You are the manager and need to manage. Just need to obtain some manager tools (via a class).

            1. Zap R.*

              Thank you. I think I know this intellectually but it’s hard to believe it on an emotional level.

              1. irene adler*

                Getting some outside training will put your emotions at ease. You’ll have tools to use.

            2. Samwise*

              Michelle is a brat, unprofessional, and…she doesn’t even work there any more! To hell w Michelle. Your boss has your back, that’s what matters.

          2. The Other Dawn*

            “I think they’d just been with the company too long and were angrier with the change than with me…”

            I think this is likely part of the explanation. In my new job I have a direct report that hates change. She doesn’t huff and puff when I ask her to do something, but it’s clear she doesn’t like it because it’s often something I’m changing and she’s in disagreement. But she’s mature about it and does it.

            I think the other part of the explanation is that direct report is very immature. Sounds like it was a good thing she quit. Now you don’t have to deal with her and can focus on managing others than can act like adults and get the job done.

      3. Errol*

        Tone is incredibly important with direct commands. My boss goes “I need the Llama grooming reports filed by X time” but it’s a statement of fact. It’s not his job to manage my feelings about being told what the boss requires of me. But I think I would feel differently about that if he barked orders at me like a naughty puppy vs how he just states it. He’s not a jerk about it.

        1. Zap R.*

          I was definitely not “barking orders.” Tone is a huge problem for me, but it tends to be on the opposite end of the spectrum – I’m too wishy-washy.

          1. Errol*

            It was a comment on asking vs telling, but I forgot to add that in there! Sorry about that, wasn’t meaning to make you feel like I assumed you were barking orders

              1. Mr. Shark*

                Yes, from what you’ve described, this sounds like it’s a problem with your direct reports, not you. In fact, I think from what you’ve said, you can be more direct. You are the boss. You don’t have to be harsh about it, but you can directly tell someone what needs to be done.

                The only question I would have is that you make sure and solicit feedback from your direct reports. I’ve had many new bosses come in to manage me and my peers, and the ones who were the most successful were will to learn from us on how things were done before trying to rock the boat. That said, you are the boss, and once you get your feet under you and know what’s going on, it’s your job to provide direction, even if they don’t like or agree with it.

                But you can be the boss and not be their friend. There’s nothing wrong with that. Respect is the key–if you work hard and give them proper recognition when they do well, and treat them well even if they make mistakes, they will come around and respect you. Being wishy-washy doesn’t help, though. You can be firm and still not be a jerk.

                My bigger concern is that you’re barely making over minimum wage. That doesn’t make much sense to me if you are a manager. For your sake, I hope that changes quickly.

      4. Amber Rose*

        No? I’ve had both. There’s no reason you can’t just tell someone to do something as long as your tone isn’t jerky.

    5. LGC*

      She CCed you when she resigned and said you should be fired?! That’s…something.

      I’m not sure what sector you’re in or how “professional” your job is, but that email should reflect far more poorly on her than it ever would on you. Demanding your supervisor be fired is a huge no-no in any case, and sending that message to you was clearly a demonstration of bad faith (if, you know, telling HR your boss should be fired because she actually does her job isn’t in bad faith on its own).

      Also, if your job has an employee assistance program, take advantage of it!

        1. ..Kat..*

          Go check out the Captain Awkward blog. She has suggestions for what to do when you need therapy, but can’t afford it.

          Good luck.

    6. Errol*

      I wonder if it was just she didn’t like you. I’ve worked with people where there isn’t something wrong with them but there is just something about them as a whole that grinds my gears. Obviously Michelle needs some lessons in professionalism if she cc’d you into the email so I wouldn’t be surprised if norms seemed offensive to her as well.

      My former office manager was one of those people who just drove me batty, she could say hello and I’d instinctively want to tell her to fork off (I didn’t, because I’m a professional. But that urge was there just like I am 110% sure she felt the same about me). No matter what or how we spoke to each other, we just set each other off. It happens. But we were professional enough to keep it civil and move on with our lives which it doesn’t seem like Michelle did.

      Another point is that “multiple people” can literally be someone nodding to make Michelle stop talking. I’ve noticed that with bulldozing personalities that they will often take you not actively disagreeing as agreement with them which often isn’t the case. So I’d consider if she’s maybe one of those types as well.

      I’d also chat with your manager about this. She will likely have some advice on both Michelle as well as you and how you’re doing.

    7. VioletCrumble*

      I wouldn’t spend any more time worrying about her. Office protocol is such that staff are not asked if they’d like to do something; they are assigned tasks to be completed.
      Someone who is that clueless about how work is “supposed to work” really can’t be trusted on any other feedback given. Throwing in a “several people have been complaining” is just her way of hitting out at you.

    8. Interplanet Janet*

      A free alternative to therapy but that might really help you with the things you describe is CoDependents Anonymous (coda dot org). Codependence is all about only feeling safe if you can control what other people think of you and managing other people’s feelings. It’s insidious.

      Good books are CoDependence No More or anything else by Melodie Beatty. And the 12 step meetings changed my life. (In AA, step one is admitting you’re powerless over alcohol; in CoDA, it’s admitting you’re powerless over other people.)

  107. stelms_elms*

    Just venting here as I know I should say something directly to my co-worker.

    I have a co-worker who has a dry sense of humor/sarcastic. Every damn day he comes out from his office to my cubicle and says things like “anything new and exciting happening out here?” or when I ask him how he is, he deadpans with “it’ s a thrill a minute.” When I tried to call him on it a bit and responded positively to his inquiry the last time he asked and said everything is going great, he responded with “you always say that, but you’re probably lying half the time.” No dude, I genuinely LIKE my job. And even if I was having a bad day, our mutual boss sits 15 feet away from me in his office, so no, I’m not going to complain. He’s really starting to piss me off.

    1. Colette*

      Honestly, I don’t think talking with him will help – and I also don’t think this is the kind of thing you can really address with a conversation. I also don’t see a real issue with “anything new and exciting happening out here?” – you can answer with “no”, “there was, but it’s over now”, or “always fun to be here” and then just go about your day.

      I’d reply to “you always say that, but you’re probably lying half the time.” with “Why are you asking me if you think I’m lying to you”.

      But to me, this seems like a basically neutral conversation opener, and I don’t see it as something that needs to change so much as it is a difference in communication styles.

      If he’s always negative or you can’t get work down because he always answers sarcastically, that’s a different story, but this doesn’t seem bad to me by itself.

      How is your relationship with him generally?

      1. stelms_elms*

        I think maybe I’m just cranky today. Part of it might be that he just comes over and hovers by my cubicle until I acknowledge him and talk with him. He’s actually a really nice guy, I just think that he doesn’t act the same way towards people with offices. It’s just different having a cube because most people would not just walk into someone’s office and stand there like they would walk up to cubicles. I think he’s just not a big conversationalist, so there’s lots of awkward pauses with the sarcasm, so it’s just awkward. I’ll move on and let it go.

    2. RandomU...*

      Actually no, I don’t think you should say anything to your coworker. Let him be with his phrases and reactions. He gets to respond the way he wants to about his job.

      If his coworkers and his boss think he’s a Negative Ned, then that’s on him. But honestly those responses are pretty typical from most people about their job.

    3. Amber Rose*

      I feel like you’re overreacting a bit here. It’s really not something to get pissed off about, it’s just bland small talk.

      1. valentine*

        It’s neither bland nor small when he says they’re lying after forcing the interaction and not accepting the positive response. What does he want?

        stelms_elms, I would try ignoring him if it’s never about actual work, responding with just a thumbs-up, or doubling down on the positivity (When he says you’re lying: “Nope; it really is great. See ya,” and then go back to work). I’m surprised you call him nice when he daily chooses to treat you like a captive audience and annoy you. A kind person might say, “Hope everything’s going well out here” or “Hope your day’s as good as mine,” as they walk by.

    4. The Man, Becky Lynch*

      I am like you, I hate this kind of banter. It’s negative and draining as a generally happy person [who has never ever disliked a job until it was time to quit and then I was still grinding and looking for my escape].

      But it’s a personality conflict here. Just roll your eyes at him internally and let him continue to be his [obnoxious to you and me] self.

    6. Mr. Shark*

      Huh, well that sounds like most of my banter and my co-worker’s banter. It’s more typical “misery loves company” than anything else, but as you said, it’s mostly sarcasm. We don’t hate our jobs or anything. It’s just joking around.

      I’m not sure why it’s such a big issue for you. I typically hear, “another day in paradise” as a response to “How’s it going.” It’s really no big deal.

      It sounds like he just wants to have a conversation with you, and that’s how he starts it off. I think you can just deflect it, by saying, “Everything’s perfect, how about you?” If you throw positivity at him constantly, maybe he’ll back off. But honestly, I don’t think it’s worth getting worked up about, and there’s nothing inherently wrong with what he’s doing.

  108. KatieKate*

    Here to brag–my recent college grad of a sibling got a job!! I helped them fix their resume with skills I learned here on AAM, and directed them to read everything they could from this site. I’m so proud of them!

  109. taketothesea*

    Any advice about the best way to go about applying for similar jobs at the same company, or if it is even a good idea? I am in the process of applying for jobs and just received a rejection several days ago from an organisation. I saw on their website today that they have a new posting up for the same office/sector of the organisation, similar skills required, but a different focus (the first job would be, say, Teapot Artist Exchange Program Organiser, whereas the new one is more like International Teapot Artist Recruiter — it seems more focused on customer service and external relationships, but both are administrative roles that support the same overall aspect of the company).

    Both job specifications were/are generally well within my skill set but I don’t have direct experience in this specific area of work, which I am trying to break into. I have read some conflicting advice about whether it is OK to keep applying for jobs at the same place after a rejection — maybe there is some other reason they think I wouldn’t be a good fit? — and if I do move forward, I’m not sure how to indicate in my cover letter why I am doing so & that I am genuinely interested in this new role. Thoughts?

    1. leya*

      i would say it can’t hurt to apply to this second posting – maybe your skills are more relevant to this new listing than they were to the one you were rejected from. after this, however, i would hold off on applying for other positions at this company for a little while (at least a few months); you don’t want to look like you’re just resume-bombing and don’t care about the work. but applying for two similar jobs at one company in a short time isn’t outrageous.

      as for the cover letter, there’s no need to mention that you applied to another position (i’m assuming you weren’t interviewed, just rejected. if you were interviewed, you ought to mention it, and alison has talked about that before, i believe). just make sure that you’re tailoring this cover letter to this new position. it may even help, while you’re writing, to focus especially on all the ways that this role is different from the one you were rejected for. (of course, if that comes across too much in the letter itself you can dial it back, but it might be a good mental framework.)

      good luck!

  110. anon_for_today*

    So, curious how others handle this. I am an individual contributor, but still as part of my job function, I manage a project team. It’s very real hands on management, not just providing guidance. I dont have the commensurate title/compensation, so I asked to be removed as lead. Mgmt feels I am the only one capable of doing this work. Anybody else in this position?

    1. Just Elle*

      Don’t beg out of a promotion! Just ask them to increase title/compensation to match!

      1. anon_for_today*

        I asked for the promotion, and because of the corporate norms and policies, its a minimum of 18 months away. I am very much at the end of the runway, as it is termed, so a promotion for a 60+ y.o. employee is statistically unlikely, as is getting another job. The whole situation is annoying.

    2. Close Bracket*

      It’s common to be expected to work at a higher level before getting the commensurate title/compensation. I would stay as the lead and use the experience to ask for a raise at my next review.

    3. Mr. Tyzik*

      Do you write performance reviews for them? If so, then you definitely need the title and compensation.

      If not, then managing people is sometimes part of being an individual contributor. For example, a PM manages people but doesn’t write reviews, manage the admin work for each direct report, conduct 1:1s, give feedback, etc.

    4. PharmaCat*

      Thanks for the input; I’ll think on it. Lately it’s been a challenge because we dont hv sufficient resources. that might be the real cause of my stress.

  111. Dragonfruit*

    tl;dr: I have two great options in front of me. Which do you think is better and how should I keep both these bridges from combusting?

    I’m a fundraiser for nonprofit work, but have always wanted to work in local government (civic-minded duty and all that). I interned a lot in government offices in college, but never really got a foothold to get hired after graduating, so I’ve been floating around nonprofits doing related-but-not-necessarily-the-same work for the last few years (and of course… volunteering).

    Recently I made it surprisingly far in to the interview process with some county bigwigs to be their new Executive Admin, and last they told me I’m in their top 2 for consideration for the role. During the panel interview I was a little nervous because they seemed to test for someone with high-level Excel/admin skills, but actually wanted someone who was basically an adult nanny and could read their minds on what and how to expect their stakeholder interactions to go. I figured part of this comes with Exec Admin territory, but it was a little intimidating in the moment. I’m excited about it, though, because it does get me closer back on track to my career goals, and would be a great way to network and meet people politically. Also, double my current salary and great county benefits!

    The problem is, this is all also happening while my current boss, who is great and has always championed me, just opened a new position and basically wants to “secure” me on the fundraising team by promoting me from fundraising admin to a fund manager. Since I’m overworked doing higher-level stuff as it is, this would basically secure the monthly processes and portfolio I have now, while getting rid of my requirement to keep doing admin/database things (I assume that position would also quickly open up if I got promoted to this). This would also come with a ~15% raise or so to my current salary.

    So: If given the option of both, what is the best? A more-stable job with less pay and supportive team members, or a potentially more volatile job with double pay and some serious networking benefits?

    1. animaniactoo*

      On first instinct, taking the salary out of it, which work do you WANT to do? Which work do you feel will ultimately be more satisfying for you?

      Then put the salary back in. Does the lower one allow you to live comfortably?

      Do your goals today have to match your original goal for career path? I was going to be a secondary ed math teacher. I’m a creative manager working on children’s furniture. I stumbled my way into the current job, but it’s a good fit for me and allows me to do lots of things that teaching might or might not have let me do.

    2. RandomU...*

      Follow both. There’s nothing that says you’re obligated to stay with the fundraising job if you find something that fits in government.

  112. Tango Foxtrot*

    My husband got a job offer yesterday, with a $17k salary jump! However, with the tax bracket increase, $800/mo increase in health insurance costs (we no longer qualify for CHIP, or for exemption for me as a spouse) and the extra $150/mo in fuel, it’s going to be overall a wash financially.

    Basically, he’ll be increasing his commute by 30 minutes each way in exchange for a better work environment, and healthcare coverage for his spouse. He also receives 95 shares of company stock and strong employees he’s spoken to say they receive a 10% annual bonus. The position itself is a bit of a wild card—the role he would be taking on is a new role in a newly created team, so he can’t speak to the anyone who’s already held it, unfortunately. He interviewed with the manager, and got along well with her.

    We’re asking you: what’s your opinion? Take it or leave it?

    1. The Man, Becky Lynch*

      It’s an added 30 minutes to commute but what does that mean as a total commute?? If it’s moving from 15 minutes to 45 minutes, that’s not that bad but if it’s already an hour…and now it’s 90 minutes, that’s exhausting and makes a world of difference [it did for me at least!].

      A better work environment is often worth a lot of juggling that comes with it, if he’s in a position that’s eating away at him right now, it would be an instant “yes” for me, barring finding out that he now has a two hour commute each way or something like that. Health benefits being better really makes your life so much easier, so much less stress involved.

      1. Tango Foxtrot*

        Yes, it would take him from a 60 to a 90 minute commute each way, which is why it’s a major consideration for us. However, his current job is truly awful and getting steadily worse. Also (and we’re trying not to take this too much into consideration as it hasn’t happened yet) the company that made the offer recently announced plans to move their headquarters in October, to a city that’s actually closer to us than his current job.

        1. The Man, Becky Lynch*

          Ah since it sounds like it hopefully should be a short term long commute, that’s even better!

          Commutes also really depend on the person and the area. I had an hour commute before but it was rural and fine by me. Then the city commute of an hour made me want to die inside after awhile [well that was also on top of the fact i had grown to hate my job of course!]. Thankfully the joy of being in a better place will make that extra hour a day feel less like a jab in most situations. Only difference is if commute/transport really stresses him out, my partner had to move really close to work after awhile when he was burning out because even an extra twenty minutes was just too much emotional strain. But again, it was a job sucks kind of thing.

          I agree with the others who mentioned that the future is something to consider too.

          I actually took a small pay cut awhile back to move jobs. Then within a year and a half am up by 20% because my current employer increases steadily for the first few years and doesn’t skimp on raises. We also have a bonus that we don’t tell people about when they come on because it’s “conditional” but it’s one of those conditional things that always happens because the conditions would have to be a disaster to remove it. So there may be other great things lurking over there that aren’t given right up front either.

          And i have seen first hand how much of a difference it makes to escape a bad work place and that’s more than enough of a reason for him to take some minor inconveniences to work around.

          1. Tango Foxtrot*

            Thank you! He used to love driving but has learned to dread the commute, and I think his miserable current work situation is a factor in that.

    2. RandomU...*

      On the financial side, don’t make the mistake of looking at it from the short sided view. In other words it’s a wash now. But will it become a boon? I don’t have enough info to give specifics, but here’s some things to think about.

      -Future raises… even the same % raise on a higher dollar amount means more money. So within 1 year you could be better off.
      -Future jobs… the salary ladder is real.
      -Bonus… not guaranteed, but if he gets it, right there he’s 10% better off financially
      -Career potential… this one is fuzzy. Does he gain in experience, title, or other things that could translate into higher salary later?

      Based on what you wrote… I’d say he should take it. Keep in mind the limited information available.

      1. Tango Foxtrot*

        Thank you for your input! I think your point about raises is particularly helpful to us, because the company he currently works for offers a maximum annual raise of 3%, and he’s never received more than 2%. Given that he’s one of their high performers and is consistently given extra responsibilities, that grates a bit. The career potential is a huge one too, since the plan for this role is for him to get more experience as a sysadmin that would let him move away from general tech support.

    3. animaniactoo*

      This more or less sounds like the point made to parents (usually women) who “don’t work because their salary just pays enough to cover daycare for the kid”.

      Yes, that’s what it does today. But what does it do for future? Generally it helps set up more/better work experience and keep that person relevant and current in the job market.

      Would those things be true for your husband? Some aspect of them?

      Otherwise, I think the main thing I would want to know is: Is the health insurance plan better than what you get under CHIP? If so, I would count that as a major benefit. Because health is an investment that is better when you don’t have to work towards the bare minimum.

      Other potential path: You note that the position is a bit of a wildcard. What’s your fallback plan if it doesn’t work out? I think that knowing that gives you better data to judge whether this opportunity is workable for you guys.

      1. Tango Foxtrot*

        The health insurance for my daughter and husband will be the same—same providers, same coverage. The only change in healthcare would be that I can access it as well.

        In terms of the position, what he has been told (and the company has historically honored) is that if this role doesn’t work out, he will be offered a position elsewhere in the company for equal or better pay. This is a fairly well-established financial institution, and we’ve spoken to employees past and present who agree that they tend to follow through on their word.

    4. Rainy days*

      Healthcare for an additional person is a huge benefit (if the coverage is good). It may be worth taking just for that. Even if you are healthy now, you don’t know what the future may hold and a medical emergency can be a huge hit to your finances.

      The commute issue is tough. Different people will tolerate such a long commute differently, but it’s a serious issue. Would he be able to work from home at all, once he’s established trust with his boss? People I know with long commutes say it makes a huge difference to work from home even one day per week.

      1. Tango Foxtrot*

        Healthcare is definitely a big one. I’m currently dealing with untreated epilepsy and PTSD, among other things, that I might potentially be able to get treatment for if I had insurance. In addition, should I get pregnant again (not planning on it, but I wasn’t before either!) it would definitely be good to be able to get prenatal and delivery care.

        Apparently, the current policy is that after three months on the job, if you’ve done good work, you will be assigned the hardware needed to work from home.

        Because the job could involve a significant on-call component, particularly on holidays, that should continue to be an option. We would have to upgrade our internet service, though. If things go well and he does end up needing to be on call as often as they expect, we’re hoping he could negotiate for that cost to be covered. We’re in a very remote area, so reliable high speed internet can be a little pricy.

    5. montescristo1985*

      I hope this doesn’t sound condescending, but I see people get confused on this all the time. You are aware that only the wages that are over your current bracket’s maximum will be taxed at a higher percentage, not all the wages? Sometimes people get confused and think that all wages get charged at the new higher percentage, when that isn’t the case (presuming we are talking about U.S.) That can make a big difference.

      1. valentine*

        only the wages that are over your current bracket’s maximum will be taxed at a higher percentage
        This is something I learned here and the myth persists, so I’m always glad to see someone mention it.

    6. Interplanet Janet*

      Take it. You said below that his current job is terrible, plus all the things other people are saying about the future potential of a higher salary long term.

      A long commute isn’t desirable, but it doesn’t have to be the worst thing in the world. I consider my commute time “me” time now — I listen to audiobooks or podcasts, or scheduled phone chats with friends. If you can get away from the emphasis on trying to shorten it by taking shortcuts or driving a little faster, it lowers the stress a lot.

    7. Anono-me*

      Health insurance for you is a huge +.

      Also retirement options are usually based on salary.

  113. De Minimis*

    I’ve been at my new job not quite 3 months. I’ve never worked someplace with such high turnover. Generally someone quits or is removed every week, and it’s at all levels of the organization. I think they’ve gotten to where they’ve quit announcing departures to the general staff. They notify the managers, and my manager always lets us know [we’re in finance/payroll so it’s info we need.]

    Most of the people there have been there a relatively short time to where we joke that someone is a lifer if they’ve made it over two years. The entire organization is just over a decade old, and is actually fairly stable as far as finances go, but it’s obviously got a lot of problems to where I don’t think I could recommend that friends or family work here. The only good aspect is that I feel like with all the turnover that there could be room for growth since there are always vacant jobs at all levels [they just fired a director earlier this week, so I’m guessing some of the people in that department may be moving up]. But it definitely seems like there are some toxic managers/departments.

    I don’t know. This is probably the most dysfunctional place I’ve worked in a long while [used to work for the Post Office early in my career and that’s still the all-time worst as far as workplace craziness.] Has anyone else ever worked in a professional job where it seemed like people were quitting or being fired every week?

    1. MissDisplaced*

      Yes, but that was early on in my career. With some industries, it can be common.
      Call centers and sales come to mind, where if you don’t meet your quota you’re fired. I think some Tech/Internet companies are also that way. With some of the tech companies I use, every 3-4 months you get a “new” account rep, so I guess they’re churn & burn on people.

      Did you know about this going in? I guess a job’s a job, but I think I’d take heed, learn what you can while you’re there, and keep your eyes open. Not saying you should run, but I’d always be prepared to look again when faced with such instability. But who knows, maybe you thrive and move up there.

      1. De Minimis*

        Yeah, I should specify the industry….it’s nonprofit healthcare, we operate a health center and we’re actually doing well to the point where expansion is in the works, but there just seem to be major issues throughout the departments with recruiting and retaining staff.

        The job was kind of a “out of the frying pan” situation for me—I’d had my previous job just over half a year and it was obviously not working out. This job is in a field where I’ve worked at and been happy with in the past. It was a promotion for me as far as title, and I’d really hoped to be here long term. It still might happen, but right now I’m planning to just re-evaluate in a couple of years assuming I make it that far.

    2. Bunny Girl*

      That’s the department I just moved from within my company. It was crazy. I work at a big university and when I first started I was in a different department then I am now and holy crap I could not believe the turnover there for such a large employer. There were mass exoduses weekly. When I left (a little less than a year after I started) there was a HUGE exit that they’ve never really recovered from. It is really overwhelming. And it wasn’t just entry level staff either. There were lots of upper level managers who were just peacing out left and right. The most long lived person there had been there for seven years and she was the reason I quit as she was my supervisor. HR, who dealt with multiple departments, told me that there were a lot of complaints about her but no one ever stuck around long enough to really make a point of disciplining her or paying attention to how awful she was.

    3. The Man, Becky Lynch*

      The only place I saw turnover like that was in the restaurant industry. It seemed like I had to cut final checks every frigging day at one point. Absolutely miserable.

      I wouldn’t expect somewhere with this kind of dysfunction to promote from within so I wouldn’t think there was any room to grow normally. They tend to try to bring in outside folks and “fix” a very broken machine, then when they don’t, they either quit or they’re kicked out like the last person. Absolutely awful business practice!

      1. De Minimis*

        I think there are a few factors….at least a couple of the departments are a huge mess, and their managers are a real problem. Also, medical front line staff is just stressful and I’m actually not too surprised by high turnover there, what surprises me is high turnover in administration and other non-patient facing areas.

        The whole organization is only 10 years old. There are only a few people who have been around for the entire time [including the CEO.] A slightly larger group has been around for the 5-7 year mark, but just about everyone else has been there 3 years or less, and a significant number have been there less than two years [including my manager.]

        One thing I’ve really noticed is that I think it’s the first office job for a lot of people here, and maybe that’s some of it too.

    4. Fortitude Jones*

      Yup. I worked at a law firm early in my career where the firm cut people every three to four months. They’d sometimes replace certain positions with temps, who would then quit after a couple months. It was like that pretty much from the time I walked in the door (as a temp) until the day I walked back out to something better (as a firm employee) two years and seven months later.

  114. Xeno's Paradox, PhD*

    Hi everyone, I originally sent this to Alison, but she advised me to post here looking for someone with more expertise hiring PhDs to answer. I’d appreciate any advice!

    I’ve got a fantastic job lined up that I’m supposed to be starting this fall which requires my PhD in a field where most people don’t have one (if it helps I can fill in some details but I want to be careful in case folks at that firm read this site). When I applied and interviewed for this position over the winter, I listed my expected graduation date as June, which was accurate at the time. By the time I was extended an offer (late winter/early spring), it was clear that I was going to miss the June deadline, and when I was told the fall date that the other PhD holders hired in this “class” for the same position were going to start, I let the recruiting manager know that it was going to be a close call and I was unlikely to be able to start at the same time. She said that was fine, that I could start a few weeks later if I needed, and I promised to stay in touch as my graduation timeline became more clear.

    I’m beginning to get nervous because my research isn’t progressing as quickly as I’d hoped, and it now looks like I’m going to be defending my thesis around the time of that original start date at the absolute earliest, and realistically probably a few weeks after that. There’s also a coast-to-coast move in between me finishing here and starting there, and I could really use some amount of time to recover from the burnout I’ve been fighting for years . Will it reflect more poorly on me to ask open-endedly how late I can start before it’s a problem for them, or to have to ask multiple times for pushbacks as I struggle with Hofstadter’s Law? The firm has been incredibly flexible with me already, letting me start at a different office location than I’d originally asked for to line up with my spouse’s career, so have I used up my capital or are they signaling they’re flexible in general? My university’s career center keeps reassuring me that firms that hire PhDs know that the end date can come with a high degree of uncertainty, but I don’t want to start off on the wrong foot at a position I’m incredibly excited about. Suggestions for how to best frame and phrase the request are super welcome, especially since this will be my debut into the working world.

    1. AnonToday*

      I do not hire PhDs, so take this with a grain of salt. I do hire people who have to have a higher degree before they start and I have had to occasionally hire them in various strange situations where they were missing credits or something, so maybe this will help.

      Is the PhD a licensing requirement? IE Can you start without it finishing? Can you finish while you are working fro them? Do you have to defend in person? Can your research be done from a distance? BTW, I don’t need answers to those questions, but they are things to consider when you are framing your question.

      Personally, I would respond better an honest conversation about it. So, why not just ask them what the options are? “It looks like my research won’t be fully completed by X due to unforeseen Y. I have my tentative defense scheduled for Z. Given this shifting schedule, how would you like to proceed regarding the start date of the position?”

      1. Xeno's Paradox, PhD*

        These are all great questions and I’m sure would apply to lots of other PhDs! I will go ahead and answer in case in colors others’ advice. I’m pretty sure from the firm’s end that I could start before I finished my PhD since they have one person in this position that “only” has a master’s, but the listing I applied to was for PhDs, everyone else in this position has PhDs, and frankly, sunk cost fallacy or not, after working hard for >6 years on this I’d have a hard time emotionally mastering out. Finishing while I work would be next to impossible (and afaik working would disqualify me from being enrolled here, which makes submitting the final thesis a real pain). I do have to defend in person, and my research is traditional “wet” chemistry that can’t be done remotely.

        We (my advisor and I) expect me to be able to finish up pretty quickly once the research itself is done — there’s a bunch of writing that takes a more-definite amount of time — but my research trajectory has been unusually unlucky and my thesis committee has indicated that I *must* collect a certain amount of data to qualify for a PhD rather than a master’s (a conversation which happened between my phone and in-person interviews for this position, which pissed me off because it was the first time they’d ever actually said that), and that’s the part that’s been most subject to Hofstadter’s law. Once I’ve done it successfully the first time, repeating it would probably take two weeks max, but I have to discover the successful way of doing it, if that makes sense, so it’s hard to predict exactly how long it’ll all take.

        I like the script, thank you!

        1. AnonToday*

          One thing I would be careful of (and I don’t think this was your intent, but I thought I would mention it) would be blaming your committee for the additional research requirement. It is imperative that you take responsibility for what is happening when you are having this conversation. It’s like the old “don’t bad mouth your boss to your interviewer” rule, because they don’t know you yet and they have no way to judge if you’re right or a crazy person at this point.

          1. Xeno's Paradox, PhD*

            Oh absolutely, I’d never mention that in a professional context, I just feel comfortable mentioning the frustration here. My professional framing will probably be more along the lines of this:

            The project that I had intended to make up the bulk of my thesis failed to come together in a way I couldn’t have foreseen around the time I interviewed, and due to that I’ve had to change gears entirely in order to meet the requirements for my degree. My original estimate of my graduation date was based on the success of that prior project; the new one is well under way, and right now it looks like I’ll be able to have my current project wrapped up, some unrelated degree requirements written up and examined by my committee, and my thesis defended by the end of September (beginning of that month at the earliest). I am unable to graduate without wrapping up this project, unfortunately, so I can’t guarantee any particular date until at least the research portion is finalized, which I’m hoping to be able to do by the end of this month.

        2. Samwise*

          Get some actual information. There’s a lot of afaik and pretty sure in there — you can’t make a decision without knowing for sure. Talk w the employer honestly and ASAP or sooner. Also, I don’t see how starting w/o the PhD in hand means you can never finish the PhD.

          Perhaps you will have to start w a lower title if you don’t have the degree in hand? (This happens pretty often in academia — if you are ABD, you might start as Lecturer and then become Assistant Professor when the degree is completed.). You might also want to find out if you need to have the degree in hand, or if you just need to have successfully defended (because the degree probably isn’t awarded until the end of the academic term). But **ask**.

    2. Psyche*

      I think it would be best to be upfront and direct. Asking how late you can start before it is a problem doesn’t really address the issue. And planning to ask multiple times to push it back is disingenuous. Just tell them that your thesis defense was delayed and now looks like it can’t happen before X date. Ask if it would be ok to push back your start date to Y date (including the amount of time you need to recover from burnout) and see what they say. If that is a problem they will tell you and you can do your best to adjust. Apologize for the inconvenience of the shifting start date and reiterate how excited you are about the position.

    3. NotMyRealName*

      It’s pretty common for estimated defense dates to change! But also, if you get the research portion done, is it possible to do the writing remotely and go back to defend? That’s what I did for my master’s even before it was easy to communicate via the internet.

      1. Xeno's Paradox, PhD*

        Possible, maybe, but I know I’d personally struggle to do it. My program requires me to write and defend a bunch of research proposals in addition to the thesis (seemed like a feature back when I wanted to be a professor, now seems like an annoying hurdle), and my committee wants me to write a manuscript for this work because I don’t have any papers published. I’m already struggling to multitask getting started on all of this writing with the research portion, and I just can’t imagine moving, getting up to speed at the new workplace, and writing all at once would be any easier. Plus, I’m hoping to steal a few weeks to recover from burnout before I start — that whole no papers thing, as well as the delays in meeting the degree requirements, are due to a series of projects that failed to even get off the ground over the past 3-4 years that had me questioning whether I was incompetent or cursed or what, and now having to sprint at the end really isn’t helping.

        It’s a good suggestion, and I will probably end up doing some amount of writing in airports and on planes to/from the new location to scout apartments and such, but I’m reeeeaaaaaally hoping to actually defend before actually moving.

        1. Gumby*

          We have at least one person working half-time while she finishes the thesis-writing part for her PhD. All of her experimental part was done before she started working here though. Yes, going back to defend is going to be something of a production for her (her school is in a different country) (and it requires 2 in-person visits for some reason). So maybe that is an option?

        2. Samwise*

          It is exceptionally hard to work full time at a new job while finishing the writing for your diss and getting ready to defend and then defending and then all the bureaucratic crap that follows a successful defense. BTDT for five months, ended up with major exhaustion. Make a schedule and stick to it, plan on taking a nice staycation after the defense.

          For right now, sit down with your director and make a list of everything you have to do, everything it would be good to do, everything that’s sprinkles on top and won’t matter really if you leave it off. The things your committee is asking for: are they *necessary* especially since you are not going into academia? Then make a schedule, be sure to put in not-working time.

          Remember, the most important thing about the dissertation is for it to be *done*.

  115. Grace*

    I’m a young professional (25) working at a shipping facility. I’m the manager in training, and I handle all export/import logistics; I started this position in February. I’ve been told explicitly by my boss (the office manager) that I am expected to be at the office from 7am to at least 5pm every day (although my contract says 3:30pm) regardless of workload, I have 5 vacation days a year, and no sick days (when I asked about this, I was told I was expected to come in anyways if I was sick). I am also expected to cover the clerk’s job while she takes a week of vacation, on top of my own full plate.

    Is this normal? This is my second job a after college, but my first was as an elementary teacher, so I’m not sure how out of the ordinary this is.

    1. Rebecca*

      10 hour days, only 5 vacation days and no sick time, and you’re a manager in training? And you’re expected to come in sick anyway? I really don’t want to sound harsh, but please look for something else. That’s really stingy time off, and no employer should expect an employee to come to work when sick. Plus, your contract says 3:30 PM and your boss is basically ignoring this part of your contract, so what else will they ignore?

      1. valentine*

        This labor is impossible. Imagine you have a simple, painful cough the week you have to cover the clerk. If full-time requires an extra 90 minutes per day, where do they expect you to squeeze in the clerk’s 8- to 9.5-hour work?

        In addition to the other horrors, I doubt he plans to comply with the law and pay you 90 minutes of OT daily. Aim for a job with at least a week’s worth of sick leave and the bare minimum of two weeks’ vacation per year, at least after a probationary period.

    2. AnonToday*

      This is not normal. No sick leave is not normal. 5 vacation days is paltry. Working two hours over your contracted time is… disturbing? I mean, I don’t know if it is illegal (not an expert on law), but it is troubling. Nothing about this seems normal. Covering for coworkers is normal when they are out, but the rest of it…. Not normal. Now, I do see that this is a training position.

      So, how long are you expected to be in training? Does this change when you are out of training? How does that work? Because what can happen is that when you are first on “probation” there can be restrictions on your options. Like you can’t take vacation until a six month probation is over.

      1. Grace*

        Supposedly I’ll have this position for a year, but unless my boss decides to retire (very unlikely), there’s no natural position for me to move into. After speaking with a few close coworkers, it seems my vacation will go to seven or eight, but the rest will stay the same.

        1. The Man, Becky Lynch*

          Seven or eight? After a year? That’s nonsense! You’re in a really cruddy company right now.

          I say since you’re young, if you can hangout for a little bit for the experience, please do that because as a young, early professional you’re going to probably have to deal with a lot of subpar options, due to the competition at the other facilities.

          However by all means, do not think this is the norm, it’s the very bottom of the bucket.

          These places are often ran like the service industry only you at least have set hours and limited general public interaction and aren’t living on tips. The setup for management are still the same crappy low rung stuff though.

    3. LGC*

      HELL NAW.

      That is TERRIBLE, even for the US. They expect you to basically live there. I’m with Rebecca – get out because you deserve better than that.

    4. The Man, Becky Lynch*

      For a shipping facility, it’s kind of common? In terms of a lot of them are AWFUL and should be ran out of business if at all possible. So I’m sorry, you work for one of those awful nasty places that take advantage of workers.

    5. Jadelyn*

      It’s crappy. No sick time and the expectation that you’ll come in anyway if you’re sick? That’s awful management. 5 days of vacation is stingy, but not unheard-of, but in combination with the rest it paints the picture of an exploitative employer treating staff like crap.

      If you have a contract that specifies an end time, can you use that to push back on the demands that you work 10 hour days?

      Honestly, I’d stay here for exactly as long as it took to find a new job and not a second longer. There are better jobs out there.

    6. MissDisplaced*

      I don’t know about “normal” for shipping & logistics but:
      >5 days paid vacation per year is pretty crappy as far as benefits go
      >Not giving any sick days is crappy. People get sick. Even cheap companies usually give 3-5 sick days/year
      >Working 7-5 is 10 hours. If less a lunch hour, that’s still 9 hours/day. Do you get paid overtime for the extra 5 hours a week on the clock? If not, and you are nonexempt (hourly wage) it is illegal to not pay you overtime.
      >Covering the clerk’s job is neither here nor there. Fairly normal in smaller companies to expect coverage.

      If you are paid salary and aren’t getting overtime, you’d have to really figure what your hourly rate is based on these expected work hours to see if the job is worth it to you.

      Years ago I worked as a graphic artist for a $30k/year salary. However, it was expected that we work on average 55-60 hours a week and we didn’t get overtime as we were exempt/salaried (considered a creative field) but it really wasn’t, it was graphic production. Well, at 60 hours a week, that job was paying <$10/hour. For a graphic designer, I could get paid better wages freelancing! That company sucked! And yes, of course they lied about the work hours when I interviewed.

    7. fposte*

      This is pretty bad. Are you in the U.S.? Are you in a union? If you have a union rep, go ASAP.

      If you’re not in a union and you’re in the U.S., I suspect you don’t have an actual contract, just something nonbinding laying out employment terms. However, I also suspect that you may be being treated as exempt but that your job wouldn’t pass the test and that you’re entitled to OT. (I’ll append a link; keep in mind the exemption threshold is scheduled to go up to $35,308 in January.)

    8. HB*

      So, agree with everyone else that this is not normal and the vacation/no sick time is especially horrible.
      My husband works in warehouse shipping & receiving for a large well-known company and he regularly puts in 10-12 hours a day. He hates it, and it’s awful, and his supervisor works a mere 6-8 hours with no real accountability. But it’s just the way it is for his position (and the two other shift supervisors). He’s gone to other branches where they had plenty of staff and take off time and take shorter days so I wouldn’t say it’s the norm, but it certainly is for our local branch. I think if you can tough it out a year and get the experience that could be good, but always be looking for something much better. Even though my husband works a ton, he does get 4 weeks of vacation, a good salary and decent benefits (health care – not great, retirement plan – pretty great), and a bonus if they hit very nebulous milestones. I feel like there needs to be SOMETHING in there to offset the bad vacation and hours to make it worthwhile.

  116. Let's Bagel*

    I applied for a job over a week ago (the posting had been up for awhile) and just today saw it had been posted again, as a new listing. This has to mean that I won’t be getting called for an interview, yes? Does anyone see any other way to take this?

    1. RandomU...*

      I don’t think that it’s an automatic no… I’ve had stale postings reposted even if I have a ‘maybe’ candidate. If it were my posting, I would tell you that you might not be the strongest candidate, but that you could still be called for an interview.

      1. Let's Bagel*

        Thanks–I am definitely not the strongest candidate (this was a reach position), so I guess I’ll just keep holding onto this thread of hope! lol

    2. AnonToday*

      No, it might just mean they didn’t have enough candidates, so they relisted it. It might be it’s a job that has super high turn over, so they are constantly hiring. It might be that they had a second job open that is identical to the first, so they relisted the same ad. It might on an auto-renew system in their computer. I know the temptation when you are looking is to “read into” things, but I would proceed as though you will not get the job and just move on to other things. This will drive you nuts if you let it.

      1. Let's Bagel*

        Thanks–it’s actually quite the opposite. One position open, very specialized. Not a high rate of turn over (it’s been open since January and the person leaving has been in this role for 5 years).

        But you are so right about how I need to move on from this–I have been obsessing over it for the last month and it’s completely driving me nuts! If only I could figure out a way to move on!!! Ugh.

        1. AnonToday*

          The best trick I have for the “moving on” thing is to apply for other jobs. I find that as long as I have three or four applications in the world, it is easier for me not to hyper-focus on the one I “want” the most.

          1. Let's Bagel*

            Totally agree with you — I’m scouring boards everyday, just waiting for something else to come along that excites me enough!

            1. AnonToday*

              Why not apply to some things that don’t excite you? You’re committing nothing but a few hours and the best jobs I have had often were jobs that looked “meh” on paper.

    3. Jadelyn*

      Many employers auto-renew listings until they’re filled – we’ve renewed postings even when we had a final candidate in the background check stage, just in case they didn’t pass the screening or they declined the final offer or something else fell through. Reposting a listing doesn’t necessarily mean anything as far as the existing candidate pool goes.

    4. UA*

      That’s what happened with the job I have now! The job was reposted, I assumed they’d decided to pass on me, but a week later, I got a call from the hiring manager. It really could mean nothing!

    5. The Man, Becky Lynch*

      Some places with “stack” resumes until they get enough to call and start interviewing.

      So if they’re having a hard time getting applicants, since it’s a specialized niche position, it may take them a few tries to get enough bites. Then they’ll go through and schedule interviews and go from there.

      Move on but know in the back of your mind anything can happen. A friend recently gave up since it was weeks since her interview stage. Only to be shocked and happily surprised when I reached out to say that I had just gotten off the phone during a reference check. She was certain they tossed her out of the running ages ago. Nope, their procedure was just a slow grind. which includes keeping a posting up because you don’t want to take it down too early I’ve learned that the hard way.

      1. Let's Bagel*

        Thanks! It’s such a hard line to walk between “move on, try to forget about it, assume it’s not happening” but then also there’s that part of you that of course does want to hope!

  117. Another Manic Monday*

    Last year, my government agency was going through a restructuring that unfortunately did not get completed due to budget restraints. As part of the restructure, a new job position was created above my current job position. The intention was to promote their current employees holding my job position into the new job position with better pay and promotion potential. My job position was subsequently downgraded into a less important position for new hires.

    I was unable to compete for the promotion in in the first round due to the fact that I was still in my two-year probationary period. I was supposed, however, to be able to compete for promotion in the second round; but that round got cancelled due to budget restraints. Since then I have not only performed every single job duties associated with new higher position, but also many of duties normally done by the supervisors of both positions, despite not getting the promotion and associated pay raise.

    I am considered a top performer and my competency is above most, if not all, of my peers. Despite being a relatively new hire to the agency, I am not a spring chicken and have twenty years of experience in the field. I am clearly overqualified for my current position, but I wanted a foot into the door with the agency. Hence, I am trying to climb the promotion ladder to a position more in line with my qualifications and experience.

    I am about to get my annual performance review and I will be rated “outstanding” on all job elements, just like last year. There is a HUGE PROBLEM, however, and that is the fact that according to the performance review my job title and job description have been downgraded to an entry level position. Since last year, my daily actual duties and responsibilities have increased dramatically, but it is not reflected at all in the performance review. Instead of accurately reflecting my higher responsibilities, it now looks like I have been demoted and have far fewer responsibilities than last year. I am rated “outstanding” in both this year and last year’s performance reviews, but the downgrade in my official job title and duties are significant and it look like I am current regressing instead of progressing in my career.

    It was bad enough that I was not allowed to compete for the promotion last year despite being a top performer. This is completely unacceptable to me as I need to be rated on the performance of my actual daily duties and responsibilities. I don’t do any of the job duties listed with the new downgraded job title. I really love my job and really want to make this a life-long career, but how can I stay if the agency is so callous about my career progression?

    1. Jadelyn*

      Oof, that’s really rough. Have you spoken with whoever’s doing your performance review about this? Is there any place in the review for self-review/employee input, where you could specify what duties you’re really doing?

      1. Another Manic Monday*

        I did bring up my concerns last year when we got the first part of the evaluation (assigned duties expectations). I wrote a rather long email about the issues I had with it, but never heard anything back. I never signed the acknowledgement of receipt and my supervisor seem to have become distracted by something else.

        I’m quite annoyed about the situation. First, I miss out on a basically guaranteed promotion and now they make my evaluation look like I got demoted. I love my work, but I have started updating my resume and checking out other employment opportunities.

        The office administrator have been hinting that I am the favorite candidate for new position, that will open up at the office later this year and it would effectively double my salary, but after last year’s fiasco I can’t take their words for anything related to career advancement. I know consider myself to be from Missouri.

  118. Jadelyn*

    I just need to vent for a moment here, about one of our bosses who’s being absolutely terrible.

    So Leah, who’s our dept assistant, was injured about a month and a half ago – a full tear of the achilles tendon needing immediate surgery. She’s been out on FMLA since, but a few weeks ago began working from home part-time. Mind you, she’s still on partial medical leave, she’s just working a few hours a day from her laptop.

    Well, her manager (who used to be my manager as well) Amanda tried to get me to change Leah from being a full-time employee to being a part-time employee (I create our change of status forms and enter them into our HRIS) – which also would’ve affected her eligibility for benefits. I checked with my boss, Dan, who used to be Amanda’s boss/my grandboss until we reorganized the dept last year, and he confirmed my take, which was that since Leah is on partial medical leave we shouldn’t be changing her FTE down to part-time. With Dan’s backing, I replied to Amanda and explained that this isn’t a situation where we’d actually change someone’s FTE, even giving her an example of someone else in a similar situation. Amanda appeared to back down, replying “thanks for explaining, no changes necessary then.”

    Only this morning, she came to me to “ask” about “something she heard recently” – basically, she’s shit-stirring, and I’m pissed at her for that, too, because she kept trying to rope me into blaming another member of our team for something that they had nothing to do with – and in the course of the conversation, she mentioned Leah as an example of a temporarily part-time employee. I stopped the point I’d been making to remind Amanda that we discussed this, and Leah isn’t actually part-time, she’s on partial medical leave, and we wound up having a brief argument about it. Amanda kept insisting that since Leah’s only working 24 hours a week, she’s part time, and I kept reminding her that since Leah is on medical leave, she’s still technically a full-time employee.

    For bonus points, Leah had actually *wanted* to work full-time from home, and Amanda wouldn’t let her – so the only reason Leah is only working partial house is because of Amanda in the first place. It’s starting to feel like Amanda is trying to push Leah out or something, and I’m getting increasingly pissed at Amanda for the way she’s treating Leah. I’m debating going to Amanda’s boss about it, but I’m worried that that might make it worse – and since Amanda doesn’t report to Dan anymore, I’m not sure if I should talk to him again about it.

    I honestly don’t know what Amanda’s problem is – over the last year or so she’s gotten increasingly dictatorial and controlling with her staff, and she’s about to start actually losing people over it. I wonder when the Big Boss’s next trip to our office is? I might see if I can snag some time with her to talk about this, because it’s genuinely bothering me.

    1. The Man, Becky Lynch*

      Sometimes “power” goes to someone’s head, it’s ridiculous but it’s really a thing I’ve seen every so often. So as they get way with more and more as a manager, they try to do some really dicey cruddy things because why not push those boundaries!

      It’s triple awful since you’re the HR department and are dealing with something that could be defined as retaliation if you were to drop her to PTE and screwed up her benefits!!

      1. Jadelyn*

        That’s what worries me – if Amanda manages to convince *someone* higher up to let her drop Leah to PT, and she loses her benefits as a result, that’s pretty much textbook retaliation – an “adverse action” based on the fact that she’s on leave. And what’s weird is that if ANY other manager outside of HR tried to pull this sort of thing, Amanda would be the first to slap that down. I’ve seen her do it before! So why she thinks it’s okay for her to do…

        I think you’re right – it’s a power trip thing. I wouldn’t have expected it with Amanda – she’s in her 60s, this is not the first time she’s been a manager by a long shot, but I guess age and experience are no guarantee of actually doing well at something. :(

    2. Anne Elliot*

      Maybe send an email? “Hi, just confirming that Leah is not a temporary or part-time employee, she’s actually permanent and full-time, she’s just out on partial medical leave due to her recent injury. This can make a difference for payroll and benefits, so I want to make sure there’s no confusion. Thanks!”

      Not sure if that would work or if an email would come across as weird/hostile/overstepping. But if you can send it: (a) it will help to CYA if her mischaracterization comes back to bite her later and she tries to blame you (“Jadelyn never told me that!”), and (b) it will give you something to forward to grandboss if she replies “no she’s not, she’s temp/part time.”

      1. Jadelyn*

        Thankfully we had the initial exchange via email with Dan on the CC line, so it’s already documented, and I’ll definitely keep it in my back pocket in case I need to pass it along to the Big Boss. But if I hadn’t already done so, yeah, that would be very necessary at this point.

  119. RabidHamster*

    A new employee of mine is big on celebrating birthdays. I am not. He went to my boss to request a list of birthdays of everyone she manages (which include people he has no professional interaction with) so that he can coordinate birthday cards from the team. To me, this feels like a violation of privacy. It’s not about age for me, but rather about not liking the attention associated with a specific day. I’ve already expressed my discomfort with the whole thing to my boss. Her solution was to email everyone and have them request to her to be taken off the list. This is fine, but since he’s my employee, I feel I should probably talk about it with him directly.

    Would I be out of line to ask my employee to remove me birthday from his birthday card list? Am I a party pooper?What about giving him my opinion that he’s overstepping by doing cards at all, especially for the larger team who he doesn’t even work with directly?

    1. NotAPirate*

      Yikes. Can you redirect him to your party planning committee or whatever group organizes the extracuriculars? I’d take yourself off the list. I can’t believe the nerve of this guy. Way to make it look like you aren’t focused on the new work too, and for birthdays?!?!

    2. The Man, Becky Lynch*

      It seems like your boss doesn’t think this is a big deal and did take action when you voiced your concern. I think you’re being kind of over the top here. Just tell him to remove you from the list and that you’re not a birthdays person. He’s not doing anything wrong, he’s just over excited about giving people some personalized attention. It’s not like he’s one of those people who wants someone else to organize the events or something like that. He’s taking it upon himself to ask for something he wants…that’s not a bad quality.

    3. LGC*

      Nah. Don’t be huffy about it – it doesn’t seem like he meant to do harm – but he should be all right with your preference.

      Rather, he needs to be all right with it.

    4. Jadelyn*

      I think most people would feel you’re overreacting if you go the latter route (telling him he’s overstepping). Celebrating birthdays at work is very normal and, at least imo, is not a “violation of privacy” in any way.

      Now, if you don’t want your birthday celebrated, you could definitely tell him that. Some people aren’t into the birthday thing, and he should respect that if you tell him you don’t want to have your birthday acknowledged at work.

    5. RabidHamster*

      Thanks, everyone. I’ve asked him to take my name off the list. I think you’re right that I was putting my feelings about not wanting to celebrate my birthday onto other people by wanting to tell him he was overstepping. He does good work, he just cares about celebrations like this more than I which shouldn’t really be a thing to coach him on since it’s not interfering with work.

      1. The Man, Becky Lynch*

        I think it’s wonderful that you can step back and see your bias here. I’ve had the same kneejerk reaction before, which is why having a place to get some advice before acting is awesome and helpful!

      2. LGC*

        Glad you’ve gotten some perspective!

        For what it’s worth – I do think that people should be given the opportunity to opt out of celebrations (and I love birthdays), so he did “over step” a little bit there. But it was pretty minor in the grand scheme of things.

    6. Anono-me*

      I love birthdays. Actually, I’m a big fan of birthday month. But this feels like something that should have been an opt-in choice for people in your department.

      It’s great that you spoke up, I bet there were other people who felt the same way, but were afraid of how they be perceived.

    7. ..Kat..*

      Did your boss give him the month and day of peoples’ birthdays, or did she supply the year as well? If the later, I would be concerned (because (a) age discrimination and (b) that is not anyone’s business).

  120. Circles and Squares*

    Related to today’s first letter, I recently had a job interview for an industry research position where the company requested a “chalk talk”. As in, I couldn’t use PowerPoint but rather had to present my research project by drawing on whiteboard using markers. I’ve heard of academic interviews, especially teaching focused positions, requesting chalk talks. But it really caught me off guard that a biotech company would ask for one.

    Has anyone else given a non PowerPoint presentation as part the interview process?

    1. AnonToday*

      I have, but it was Higher Ed job and involved teaching, so I am not sure that I can offer any thoughts as to why people would ask for one outside that context.

  121. voyager1*

    Does anyone have a good script to tell a manager that you are transferring to a different department because you are bored with the work in your present job. I struggle with being diplomatic sometimes and my manager can be a bit of a loose cannon. While saying I am bored is a true statement in describing how I feel it isn’t exactly how I would describe my situation, but I need say something that isn’t too confrontational when it comes to my reasoning for a transfer.

    1. Middle School Teacher*

      “I enjoyed working here, but I’m excited about a new challenge!”

    3. LGC*

      How about…”I was looking for a change in my day to day work, and the position in [other department] was a good fit for what I want to do?” You can’t control his reaction, but you CAN be positive about the direction you’re moving. Other people will have more polished scripts, but I think that in general you want to make it sound more like you’re going to a better situation rather than leaving a worse situation.

    4. Jadelyn*

      “I’ve been doing [current work] for a number of years now, and I felt like it was time to branch out and develop my skills further in [new work], so I’m making this transfer in order to get experience with [new stuff] that this team doesn’t do as much of.”

      As LGC said, make it about what you’re running to, not what you’re running from.

      1. voyager1*

        Yeah I think you both are right. I just hope it goes well. I got to work on selling it though, maybe practice saying it out loud or something.

  122. BradC*

    My teens (19 and 16) are trying to get a summertime job, and aren’t having any luck so far.

    They’ve applied to both fast food and local retail, some online and some in-person. This would be their first job ever (both of them), so its not like they have a full resume, plus I know we’ve gotten somewhat of a late start (we took a vacation right after school let out). We are worried about running out of summer before too long.

    Just keep at it? Anything different and unique about applying for an entry-level jobs in 2019? I haven’t had to apply for an entry level job in (mumble mumble) years!

    1. GigglyPuff*

      Do they like animals/dogs at all? My first job at 19 was working at a dog kennel (boarding, daycare) and got hired in July. Plus I had no resume at all, and definitely wasn’t the only one. They have good amount of turnover, so almost always hiring, especially if they are chain with multiple locations. Though not sure if we hired under 18, possibly for liability reasons.

    2. MissDisplaced*

      I don’t know. I have heard this is harder nowadays, since the recession, for teens to get these jobs as they’re filled by other adult applicants who can be year-round. I also think some states made most jobs 18 years old, which is very unlike the days when I was a kid and you could start working in restaurants, stores and other places at the age of 14 years old.

      Don’t know where you live, but maybe local places that are more summer-oriented? Golf courses, ice cream places? Or they could try making their own jobs pet sitting, babysitting, dog walking/washing, yard work, etc.

      Sorry, it may indeed be kind of late though. A lot of these summer-only jobs get lined up back in April or May.

    3. Lx in Canada*

      I’m 22, almost 23, and it took me, no joke, a year and a half to find my first job. From the time I was 15 and a half to just after turning 17. NOTHING. I applied to hundreds of places. Couple interviews, but no luck.

      The way I eventually got a job was through one of my friends, actually! Her mom was the cash manager at a local grocery store, and I got a job because she was looking to hire. Have your kids ask their friends if their parents work anywhere they might be able to get on… Presumably their friends’ parents know your kids are responsible (or whatever good traits they have), and can hire/vouch for them.

      One of my siblings worked at a breakfast place because one of her friends’ parents owned the place, and so she got hired as a busser. Then she got hired at the grocery store I worked at, too. My youngest sister actually works at a pizza place, but I think she just got lucky and got hired at the right time.

      It’s been several years obviously and I now work in a professional job, but that first job was good experience! (Even though retail sucks…)

    4. The Man, Becky Lynch*

      Keep at it, they’re bound to get something.

      The 19 year old should have an easier time of it. The 16 year old is going to run into people who don’t want to hire people under 18, due to the laws involved [though it’s summer, so at 16 the laws are basically that they can’t work with knives but fast food rarely has a butchering station or something like that as far as I know!].

    5. L.S. Cooper*

      Depending on what city you’re in, you may be out of luck. I only got a job in high school because it was a place that was about to open a new location, so they needed a lot of people. It didn’t seem like most places really wanted or needed teenagers, especially in a college town, where they had their pick of college students, and didn’t need to hire high schoolers.

    6. Sneaky Ninja for this one*

      No advice, just commiseration. My kid just got his first job at 18. A ton of rejections, from typical “teenager” jobs – fast food, grocery stores. Argh. The grocery store wants something like 5 years retail experience to be a bagger. For real??? He did finally get a job at a fast-casual burger place.

      All I can say is keep plugging away. He doesn’t have a car or license (that’s a whole ‘nother issue) so has to work around our schedules to get to work, too. Although that seems to have worked in his favor, because not a whole lot of people want to work nights/weekends.

      If your 19 year old is going to college, maybe a work study or on campus job after school starts?

      1. Jadelyn*

        Seconding the work-study recommendation – my first actual job was staffing the computer labs on campus. Mostly just keeping an eye on things, refilling the printer periodically, some light tech support if people needed help with something. It was good experience though, paid better than most off-campus jobs, and because I was a student they were a lot more flexible about working around my class schedule than off-campus employers were willing to be.

    7. Rainy days*

      I got a job in retail (it was a long time ago) by writing a really impressive cover letter about how passionate I was about a particular product. I wrote it for one specific chain and sent it to all the locations of that chain. One location got back to me and the manager specifically told me it was because of my cover letter. I know it seems like that shouldn’t be necessary for retail, but it apparently was.

    8. Catsaber*

      I had trouble getting my first job as a teenager, and I applied to tons of jobs like that. I ended up getting a job at a Renaissance faire (worst job ever) because they hired by doing a big open-call type thing (it was for all the food/janitorial/administrative positions, not anything like a performer or vendor). So basically I just had to show up and fill out an “application,” which was really just an agreement to have a background check. I was then assigned to a position.

      If there is anything like that with open call hiring, they could try that. The job will probably suck, but having a crappy summer job is what being a teenager is all about! :)

    9. Veryanon*

      My kids are the same ages. Fortunately, they both landed summer jobs, but lots of places are still hiring. I would keep at it – if they are applying online, I’d suggest following up with a visit to the store in question, ask to speak to the manager or someone in hiring, and just mention that they’ve applied online and wanted to follow up on their application. This is not something I’d recommend for a professional job, but in a retail environment, they get so many applications that sometimes the managers like to see someone who is interested enough to follow up in person. They might also want to check with their friends who are working, to see if their employers are looking for additional people.
      Good luck!

    10. Cheesecake2.0*

      I cleaned hotel rooms for my first job. It was real crappy but they were willing to hire with no other real experience. Also what about stuff like local summer camps (could they oversee little kids effectively?)

    11. AnonToday*

      My first job was a word of mouth job when I was sixteen and so was my second job. Have you got anyone who you can reach out to and see if there’s something out there that you might know someone who knows someone who needs someone? Because I think that’s kinda how first jobs often work. One came from my best friend’s mother’s friend and the other from a friend of my sister’s mom’s boss who was looking for reliable young folks.

    12. Interplanet Janet*

      If they have any office skills and you live in or near any size city, they could look into temping. Temp agencies will have you take a test to show your skills, but don’t really care about work experience. I think it’s a great way to get starting in the working world.

    13. M&M*

      It is getting late but I know that my sleepaway camp was still hiring counselors as of a few days ago, so that as well day camp could be an option to consider! Best job I’ve ever had

  123. Liz Lemon*

    In the past, my company has required people to sign Do Not Compete agreements upon hiring but I am fairly certain I was not required to sign one. Is it unreasonable for me to request copies of my own personnel files so that I can see if I signed one? I am concerned that it was an oversight to not have me sign one, and I am not interested in signing it now.

    My company is small, toxic, and in a niche field, so a Do Not Compete would be very problematic.

    1. RandomU...*

      If your goal is not to sign one, I’m not sure that I’d ask for a copy of your file. It could alert them to the fact that you didn’t sign one.

      On the other hand, I guess it would be good to know.

      I don’t think I’m helping you very much, so I should probably stop now :)

    2. fposte*

      Is this a noncompete following termination or while employed? Are you by any chance in California?

      I don’t know if it’s the only state, but I know CA has broadly ruled that you can’t hold employees to a noncompete that limits their future employment. If you’re not in CA, you could Google to see if by any chance there’s been anything similar in your state.

      1. Jadelyn*

        In California, you also have a guaranteed right to view your personnel file, and you don’t have to say why. So there’s that.

        1. RandomU...*

          True, but just asking would prompt most HR departments to glance through it. That might result in them saying “Hmm… where’s that non compete form… better have them sign a new one”

          1. Jadelyn*

            Potentially so, but I don’t really see any other way to know for sure if you’ve signed the form.

    3. The Man, Becky Lynch*

      The good news is that in most jurisdictions DNC’s are worthless wastes of paper that are rarely enforceable. So I would just let the sleeping dog lie and go about your business.

      I would only request your personnel file if you’re positive the HR person isn’t going to comb through it and realize something is amiss, which is most likely to happen. You certainly can request it, in a lot of places it’s a requirement to produce the file when it’s requested but yeah, it’s going to set off a “Why tho?” alarm.

      1. Liz Lemon*

        I am in a very small, family-owned company and our HR department basically consists of one person (who is not HR trained, I might add) who is related to the owner of the company. This person and the owner kind of jointly act as HR. So I doubt I would be able to ask to look at my file without setting off some kind of alarm.

        1. Gumby*

          Eh, if they are that small and that uninformed the chances that they could do anything even with a signed non-compete agreement are even smaller. I say don’t ask and proceed as if you have not signed one.

    4. Anono-me*

      Signing a non-compete is usually a pretty big deal. Most people I know have it vetted by an attorney. This leads me to think you’re not remembering having signed one is probably right.

      I would wait until you have an exit plan in place, and then ask to review your personnel file at that time. If a noncompete is in there you can re-evaluate your plan as needed. If it’s not in there, happy exit plan.

  124. NACSACJACK*

    I did it! I took the brave action!! I wrote a resume and went to a job fair yesterday. Oh my god, my resume was so bad! Luckily they dont (didnt) encourage people drop off their resume. Instead, it was a “This is who we are” networking gig. And for those wondering, yes, it’s a govt job. But I gotta say, it was so liberating and pleasurable to finally write a resume rather than procrastinate and whine about not having one. I encourage you all to write your own resumes.

    1. Siege*

      Nice! I had the hardest time writing resumes at first. Now that I have a template, it’s easier.

  125. it's-a me, port-a-folio*

    Any formatting advice for a portfolio in PDF (or other format) form? I can’t have anything publicly available because of confidentiality, but I’m planning on making something that I can provide on request. I’ve never made or seen one, though. It would be mostly graphic assets, Powerpoint slides, and screenshots of videos or programs.

    1. Catsaber*

      I used Photoshop to create a page template, then designed each page with the content I wanted. I exported those as pdfs, and then put them together into one large pdf. You could also do the same thing in Word.

  126. Kalliopesmom*

    My union hall is holding elections this weekend. I find out if I get a new boss (business Manager). I am a little worried about the results. I know both candidates, one an instructor (whom I don’t work with) and the other is the current business manager. I guess its just the change that has me worried. Right now it seems very split between the two. Most of the members do not fully understand what happens in the office. This week has been tense with accusations. I received one phone call from a group of members that was harsh to say the least. They wanted information that I am not allowed to provided, only the BM. So I offered to take a message and the leader of this group told me, I will not give you my name or number. Dumbfounded, I asked how the BM was supposed to reply . He then told me that I would have to figure that out and he would call back in ten minutes to get the information. When I informed him that this would not work, he threatened me with the other candidate, implying that my job would be on the line. Since he really doesn’t understand our office, I kinda laughed to myself. My job is through a union and I have a collective bargaining agreement in place that the BM can not fire me without cause, plus my rep would have a field day if this even became an issue. I am mostly irked because there is a proper phone etiquette and manners that seem to be missing from this member and his group. Besides the fact that caller id has been around since the 90’s, and that this stupid threat was dripping with misinformation, I can only wonder how this person functions on a daily basis. I called the BM and the instructor afterwards to let them know what happened. Both said that the members should never be rude to me and would look into it. Hopefully, after the election the craziness will die down. I am the only woman in the office and handle most of the paperwork and day to day issues.
    If you are a member of a union, be involved. attend meetings, vote in elections, and be nice to the office manager who probably knows way more than you think about the running of the union. Just saying

  127. Siege*

    Hey guys! I posted roughly a month ago about working at a tourist attraction where it is hard to get bathroom breaks. Things are by no means solved, but it’s getting slowly better; I think our team leads have been coached on this. We also have a new head honcho who’s been making positive changes, and our Union reps are bringing this issue (including documentation I’ve kept!) up with him. They are also keeping names out of it if at all possible, so that’s a relief. Thank you for your advice!

  128. TechWorker*

    I’m job hunting but currently not that hard. In reality I don’t want to leave my company because they’re great! But my role is kinda crap and my project is *really* crap. I know that my company would be willing to make changes to keep me – but I don’t know what to ask for/how to fix the whole situation. I feel like I’m giving up to leave because the project is going badly but at the same time it’s seriously affecting my mental health. (This doesn’t help because I need to find a way to raise issues to management without crying everywhere…). Should I just quit..?

    1. fposte*

      Would you rather job hunt than ask for help? Personally I’d be a no on that, but it’s where you are that matters.

      Sure, it’s better if you can have a specific request for management, but I think it’s fine to go to your manager and say “Jane, this project is killing me. I really love this company, but I can’t see a way forward through this. Can we work together to see if there are any alternatives?” Also, it’s okay to ask and find the solutions insufficient–asking doesn’t bind you to accepting whatever the offer. Sometimes also just talking to your manager and taking action feels better all on its own–not that that make your current project and role just fine, but it might make it easier to plan your next steps.

      1. TechWorker*

        Thank you. I definitely do need to talk to my manager. I think because my manager is the worlds biggest optimist and also *very* overstretched himself I’ve found that so far when I’ve told him I’m not coping I get responses like ‘yeah okay we just need some stability’. Which is fine, but imo not the issue, the project is crap and will remain crap for the foreseeable future. I feel like I gave plenty of warnings that things were going down the drain and these were ignored because I was a new project lead (ie put down to my personal stress levels rather than the fact the project is going badly).

        1. TechWorker*

          Sorry in better answer to your question – no, I want help. My attempts to ask for it so far have largely failed though so I don’t know how else to phrase it.

          1. Jadelyn*

            I wonder if this is one of those situations where Alison is always pointing out that people often aren’t as clear about things as they think they are? You might need to get very, very blunt with your manager and tell him in no uncertain terms that the status quo is Not Working At All. He might have interpreted your earlier requests for help as just generalized worries or venting, so it may be time to say something like “I’ve mentioned this before, but I’m not sure I really conveyed the scope of the problem. This project is not working, due to XYZ [make sure to mention the external factors that aren’t just your stress level], and I’m frustrated enough by the way this is affecting my role here that it’s affecting my mental health. What can we do to resolve this, both in the short term and in the long term?”

            1. TechWorker*

              Thanks you’re 100% right. I think because I generally like my manager (and tbh because he sometimes reacts defensively to me saying the project isn’t going well) that I’ve not been as clear as I need to be. I might try to do this in writing as a starting point because of the aforementioned risk of just crying… thank you!

  129. Lisa*

    Hi everyone! I was hoping to bounce something off the hive mind. I recently attended a STEM field conference. This particular field is doing reasonably well on women representation in the ranks though, of course, this hasn’t always been the case. At the end of the conference, the organizers asked all women to pose for a photo to highlight this progress. There wasn’t a photo of all participants group or male only photo (of course). What do you guys think about it? I had ‘oh no’ reaction to it, but after speaking to a number of other women afterwards, I realized a lot of them thought it was a nice gesture from the organizers. I’m trying to reconcile my reaction with everyone else’s and would appreciate external reality check!

    1. fposte*

      My reaction is…guarded. I don’t think it’s a “nice gesture,” but it’s an understandable PR move, and if it’s going to serve as a useful sign to women entering the field, I would participate.

      Did you see the discussion about the Italian tech conference/summit that photoshopped two women into the photograph of attendees? The women actually did attend the event but weren’t present for the photo. Interestingly, the same was true of Zuckerberg but they didn’t photoshop him in.

      1. PeteyKat*

        Zuckerberg was asked if he wanted to be included but he declined (the women were also asked and gave permission).

      3. fposte*

        Sorry, I misremembered–Bezos, not Zuckerberg. Still not clear why Dick Costolo didn’t get added in, though.

    2. CheeryO*

      Not a fan. I’m a woman in a male-dominated STEM industry, and I don’t want special acknowledgment; I just want to be treated like anyone else. And if I were a potential attendee and saw that picture online (or whatever), it would probably make me less likely to want to go, not more.

    3. LCL*

      I understand why it rubbed you the wrong way. I’m not wild about this kind of attention myself, but I would do it if asked and if it was made clear it was to show that women belong, and to recruit more women to the field.

    4. Lisa*

      I’m glad I wasn’t completely off the mark!

      I did participate in the picture taking. My little rebellion was to try to have neutral face expression when the photographer/organizer was trying to make everybody smile. I haven’t seen the photo yet, so I don’t know if I succeeded:)

    5. Jadelyn*

      I think I come down on the side of “I appreciate the intent, but I don’t think this is a good way to execute said intent.” Singling female attendees out for recognition is still marking them out as something other than “regular” (meaning male) attendees.

  130. Coworking Sponge*

    I work at a WeWork, which has some cutlery and things, but does not have bowls and plates. People bring in their own bowls and plates and store them in the kitchen, and so do I.

    The issue comes with washing them. The sponge at the kitchen sink is pretty gross/doesn’t get replaced often and I don’t want to wash my dishes with it. But I also don’t want to bring in my own sponge to use because I could only store a wet sponge on the sink, which would make it a communal sponge. And I don’t want to pay for sponges for the whole office to use.

    How can I sanitarily wash my plate?

    1. Catsaber*

      I use the paper towels provided to wash my stuff. Just a dab of dish soap on a wadded up towel is enough for my items.

      1. Squeeble*

        Yep. Even just a soapy hand will do the trick for a single plate that doesn’t have things crusted on.

    2. CheeryO*

      Are there paper towels? I bring my own dishes to work and wash them with a little dish soap on a paper towel. As long as you don’t let stuff sit and get crusty, you shouldn’t need the scrubbiness of a sponge.

    3. The Inside Out*

      Get a silicon scrubber instead of a sponge, and wipe it dry when finished.

      You could also put a couple of them in the sink area to replace the sponges. They’re pretty cheap.

  131. Middle School Teacher*

    I have ten days of school left! Not sure if I will make it out alive haha.

    I’m also applying to a masters program but I’m waiting for my official undergrad transcript (it’s for the same university, you’d think they could just access it). And no mail is being delivered on my street because all the sidewalks are being redone so there’s nowhere for the mail carriers to walk (and if there was, they can’t get into our yards without stepping in wet concrete). The universe is ganging up on me. :/

    1. Luisa*

      My deepest sympathies on your still-far-off summer vacation. It will be challenging, but you’ll make it! (I have 3 days left.)

  132. TwoLees*

    One thing that might make sense for you (if it’s relevant in your field/area) is to contact your local temporary agencies closer to your end date. When I lost my job they were a life-saver. I was making $20 which was a serious pay cut, but enough to keep my basic bills paid until I got a new job. You aren’t tied to anything if you sign up with them and it might be a good option.

    A lot of people tell you not to join a temp agency as they don’t give you space for job hunting, but I was upfront with the fact that I was interviewing for jobs and all of my employers through the agency seemed to understand. It was really great actually as I was able to work on some interesting new projects even while unemployed. I worked all but about 2 months of the year I was out of work.

  133. ElephantJuice*

    AAMers! I’m looking for advice on how to advocate for myself in terms of seeking financial support from my employer toward tuition fees for a Masters (and related professional certification) that I want and is role relevant….but that I don’t really *need* in their eyes. My role is in teapot compliance and the training budget usually goes on teapot manufacturing. I do just fine with teapot compliance as is – but the Masters and certification would be really good for me, both personally and professionally. It’s also not that expensive.

    I anticipate the response will be that I function fine in my role without the Masters so tough…and I want to formulate a response to that if possible!

    1. fposte*

      Do they have an existing tuition program, or you just off the cuff asking? If they’ve never done it before, this is probably a tough sell to start, but if they’ve already been doing it you might have some wiggle room.

      What you’ve written above is why it’s good for you to do this. Why is it good for your employer? Figure out your answers to that. They don’t have to be direct benefits–they can be the indirect benefits of a tuition program or longer stay (unless they’re really clueless, their support will be conditional upon your staying a certain amount of time past the completion of the certification), too. But make it about why it’s the right move for them, not just for you.

      1. ElephantJuice*

        There isn’t a formal training and development policy but there is a pretty large training budget that traditionally has gone toward non-college training (i.e not Master’s) for the manufacturing team. My role is out to the side and gets forgotten about a bit.

    2. Rainy days*

      From what you’ve said, you should prepare yourself for a no. However, is there a way that you can frame it not in terms of your current role, but your future roles in the company? If I had someone tell me they were enrolling in Master’s, I would assume they would eventually use it to leave and get a job somewhere else, especially if it wasn’t required for their current role. However, if you can point to ways you want to grow within the company, maybe you can convince them it’ll be good to invest in an employee who plans to stay for a while.

    3. mememmeee*

      Start in your HR department and find out if there are programs for development, affiliations with training organizations, and budgetary funding for training and development. If you know the resources your organization has for this kind of thing, you can take those to your manager. Managers don’t always know about those resources.

      Think of being in your manager’s position and be ready to have concrete solutions to all the reasons to deny you this opportunity. For example, your manager might say something like: we can’t afford it, we can’t spare you the time away from work that this would take, we worry that this would overwhelm you and stress you, we worry that you will then be overqualified and want a promotion/raise/transfer that we won’t be able to accommodate…etc. Have ready responses to all those answers.

  134. Mid*

    Hello lovely people!

    As of today, I am officially graduated with a BA in Sociology of Law and Political Science.
    My GPA was solid (3.7ish, waiting on final grades) and I have a lot of work experience and an overall strong resume.

    Here’s my current struggle:
    I have an offer for AmeriCorps VISTA for an organization I adore, and the position is very relevant to my future career goals.
    However, AmeriCorps…..doesn’t really pay. For my area, my total compensation, including the end of service education award, would be around $22,000. Currently, I make ends meet on roughly the same amount as the stipend would be. But, I have zero savings and a slowly increasing amount of credit card debt ($5,000ish), and I also have $18,000 in student loans (which I am aware is quite low.)

    I haven’t really applied to many jobs because it was hard to balance a full course load and working full time (I held multiple part time jobs which totaled around 40 hours a week) and everything else in my life. However, the few places I have applied to have been responsive and I’ve made it through the first round for the majority of them.

    Also, when interviewing with AmeriCorps, I received multiple comments from multiple program managers that they were impressed with my resume and a little shocked that “someone with such a strong resume was applying here.”

    Basically, my issue is one faced by most people when they start their careers: do I go for money or passion?

    I could survive on the AmeriCorps stipend and be fine, though I wouldn’t really pay off any of my debt or increase my savings. However, it would give a lot of experience in areas that often require a Masters degree or several more years working in the field.

    On the other hand, I won’t be able to find a job that so exactly aligns with my career interests, especially in my area of focus (a niche of non-profit work) but I could be making easily $45k from the start, which would allow me to be debt free in just over a year.

    I would especially welcome comments from people who did AmeriCorps VISTA, or who turned down a offer from AmeriCorps. Does it really boost your resume as much as people say? Or if I already have a fairly amount of relevant experience for someone who just graduated, is it not worth it?

    1. AnonyMouse*

      I did a VISTA year! My personal advice- make sure that your org has a very well thought out plan for what you will be doing during your term (other than your VAD; like what the day to day will actually look like. VADs were pretty much useless when I was in. Not even sure if they still do them)! A lot of my peers in VISTA had a similar experience as I did of accepting positions that were not well thought out. I ended up leaving early and sacrificing my ed award :/ But I know quite a few who loved their service site!
      I would say the pros are that it did help boost my resume, but I think I could have also found a job fresh out of college if I looked harder. I was also planning on going back to school within a year or two, so the temporary nature was attractive to me. I was also able to live at home during my service term to save money.
      I think it depends on how well it fits with your long term goals. I also know a lot of people who did service terms and then got employed by the org they were serving with, so if you really like the org it could be a good foot in the door there! I think VISTA has also loosened their requirements on side jobs, so it might be possible for you to work something flexible outside of service hours. Anyway, I hope this was helpful! Feel free to ask me more questions about my experience, especially if you are looking for something specific!

    2. Glomarization, Esq.*

      Can you defer payments on your debt while you’re with AmeriCorps? That might ease the financial issues for the time period while you’re there.

      1. Mid*

        Yeah, my loans are deferred and AmeriCorps pays the interest that accumulates, but I won’t be able to start making payments until I have a higher paying job, aside from the $6000 at the end of service that will go to my loans.

    3. Lucette Kensack*

      Former manager of VISTAs here.

      First, I completely co-sign what AnonyMouse said. Every placement is going to vary in terms of its value to you (just like any other job would). Some will be disorganized and not have much for you to do, some will be well-oiled machines, some will sneakily try to use a VISTA as an underpaid admin, some will have big projects that you can drive forward. Think about the specific offer you have: the organization’s overall management, their plans for the VISTA year, what they want you to accomplish, their history with other VISTAs, etc.

      Second, the VISTAs I managed took huge leaps in their careers as a result of their VISTA years. We were a tiny, scrappy (but well-run) organization, and they did the kind of work that would normally be done by someone with a great deal more experience. They ended their years with major accomplishments and powerful networks, and they got big jobs as a result. (Big jobs with other organizations, often our partners. We had a staff of four, so there was nowhere for VISTAs to be promoted in our organization. We did end up hiring one, but that was an accident of good timing — a staffer left right when the VISTA’s service year was wrapping up.)

      Third, think about how you would handle it if you got another offer part of the way through your VISTA year. Leaving in the middle of your service for a permanent, reasonably paid job is both completely understandable and a huge burden on your host organization. (It’s very difficult to replace VISTAs mid-year, because of the centralized onboarding/orientation requirement.) We had one VISTA leave mid-year because she couldn’t make the finances work, and while I couldn’t blame her it was one of the worst days of my career. We suddenly had to get our biggest project done with 25% less staff capacity.

      1. Mid*

        Thank you. I really appreciate this insight. I definitely need to think about what decision I would make if I was offered a higher paying job part way through my service term.

    4. WellRed*

      Frankly I don’t get why you wouldnt go for the actual job, but I am a bit biased against the Americorps program. Had a roommate that kept needing all these things signed off on so she could take advantage of poverty programs to “gain an experience of what it was like to live in poverty.” Paraphrasing here but it turned me off forever. BS phrasing for, we won’t pay, and it was invasive to MY finances and call me crazy, maybe that $ should go to the actual poor! Sorry, rant over. Good luck in whatever you choose.

      1. Mid*

        I’ll be honest, that bothers me too. But mostly because I’ve been at poverty level for real, it’s not a “learning experience” for me. And I find it kind of insulting that people get to try out poverty for a year and then go on their merry way.

    5. ..Kat..*

      You say that you currently make ends meet on the same amount of money that VISTA pays, but your credit card debt is increasing. Actually, this means that you aren’t currently making ends meet – you are spending more than you make.

      Also, you already have the useful experience that VISTA would give you.

      I recommend a real job with real pay.

      1. Mid*

        My credit card debt isn’t increasing but it’s also not exactly decreasing. But yeah, any emergencies or other expenses would go immediately on my card which isn’t great.

  135. Milana*

    I am moving to a country where work-life balance is generally valued. I left a super stressful job with 50+-hour work weeks and extensive traveling last week so work-life balance is something I am really excited about.

    However, when I did my first interview for this position I really like, the second thing said by the person who’s doing the job now was that ‘we work a lot here.’ I cannot decode this (yet) as I’m new to the country. It might mean they do not do early Fridays or there is occasional overtime but it can also mean a lot of unpaid overtime.

    Then, when scheduling the second interview, I got an e-mail from the manager this position reports to at 3am. She might have been in the US where they also have offices and I am in Europe but I have no way of knowing.

    So my question is: how can I ask about expected hours/work load/overtime without seeming like I am looking for a job that’s barely 40h/week. I would be happy to do occasional overtime, attend a few events per year on weekends and travel every other months etc. but I cannot do the constant overtime as it has been taking a toll on my health.

    I was thinking of asking her to tell me about an average day for the position but that might not be very specific about hours. Do you have any suggestions for better and more pointed questions that do not communicate I am not willing to work hard?

    1. Overeducated*

      I think you can lean hard on not being from the country here, and phrase it in a way where it reflects on your lack of familiarity with local customs rather than how much you want to work as an individual. Just something like “I’m excited to work in Country but not as familiar with work culture, and don’t want to make any faux pas, can you tell me about general work hours and expectations for availability outside the office here?”

    2. TechWorker*

      I hate the assumption that those who don’t want to do overtime don’t work hard :( it’s so much better for everyone’s health to do sensible hours and not burn out! I don’t have any suggestions but wish you all the luck!

  136. FaintlyMacabre*

    I recently started a job and had to train with a guy who made some really horrible comments about immigrants and just generally brought politics up way too much. Our jobs are pretty independent, but also include weeks of travel to remote locations, which means all day in a work vehicle together, plus staying in the same hotel (seperate rooms, thankfully).

    I reeeally don’t want to be stuck with this guy all day for multiple days… but also am new and don’t want to make a bad impression. He’s not the only one I could work with, but he knows the area the best. I’m leaning towards just sucking it up for this year, learn the territory and then work with other people the next time travel comes up. I wish I had a better read on how well his jerkiness is known/tolerated by our bosses.

    1. Jadelyn*

      Could you work with him, and keep a few phrases in your back pocket for shutting down political talk when he gets started? Alison’s had some good scripts for that in the past.

  137. WellRed*

    Sigh. There’s a new director at a local, well-known children’s museum and there’s a big write up in the statewide newspaper in which she and the headline tout motherhood as her greatest qualification.

    1. The Man, Becky Lynch*

      It’s a children’s museum, so at least it makes some sense in that regard?

      If it weren’t geared towards kids, then it would be much more of an atrocity.

    2. An Adult Woman*

      Gross. Being a parent has nothing to do with being able to hold a museum director position, children’s museum or not. Major eye roll.

      1. WellRed*

        I agree with both of you. I would have vomited in any other context, but her experience managing her children was pretty eye rolly, IMO.

  138. AnonyMouse*

    I start my new job on Monday (finally!) and was very fortunate to have a week in between Toxic OldJob (so glad I get to call it that now!) and this new one. I know letting go of the baggage from a toxic job takes time, but I really want to start off on the right foot at my new office. Any advice on making this transition? I’m having a bit of anxiety over it, which I wasn’t expecting. I know it’s mostly coming from how much the old place warped my sense of normalcy and of myself as a professional, but I really don’t want to carry that into the new environment with me.

    1. Analytical Tree Hugger*

      What (healthful) tactics did you use to keep yourself sane at Toxic OldJob? Maybe doing a week of those things might help you purge?

      For example, I find backpacking/camping solo for a few days helps me reset and re-energize, so if I ever manage to find a new job (ugh, why am I so unhire-able?), I hope to have a week to be outdoors to reset.

  139. Ali G*

    Well I should have done that a lot sooner! I’ve been putting off calling my EAP just because – IDK. Just because. I was like “I am interested in the free counseling sessions” She asked what for and I told her I generally fee crappy and it’s affecting my work and relationships. She says no prob I’ll call you back in 3 business days with a provider near you that takes your insurance. Took 5 minutes. I feel better for having done it, but damn why did I put that off so long??

    1. Lily Rowan*

      Because it’s nearly impossible to seek out mental health care when you need mental health care! (Which I know, so I mean to find someone when I’m feeling good, and that also seems to be nearly impossible??)

      Anyway, good for you! And I hope the EAP gives you good resources.

    2. CM*

      “…but damn why did I put that off so long??”
      If you can figure that out, write a book about it — it will become a bestseller and you’ll be rich and then you won’t feel crappy anymore! I would definitely buy it. It would save me a lot of hassle and worry if I could just do things as soon as I realized I should.

  140. Izzy Legal*

    My department was moved from one division in the company to another. In short, we went from The Good Place to The Bad Place – the new division is highly disorganized, leaders can’t make decisions, and so on.

    Of the nine people in my department who were moved, seven flocked back to The Good Place once a spot was open. I am one of the two remaining in The Bad Place. There are no spots open in The Good Place which match my experience/title/skill set. My former manager, now in The Good Place, has assured me that a spot will open at the end of the year, but not sooner. She has also asked that I come to her before I decide to leave the company altogether, and to “hang in there” for a while.

    My department has a major product launch in November, and because of that, plus me having the history/experience in this department, I am being blocked from moving over sooner.

    For the sake of my mental health – which had already declined – I cannot stay and wait this out. Because of my mental health decline, I am also unable to give my full effort to the job.

    I think my next move is to cut my losses and leave the company. I’d love to consider other options though – The Good Place is a wonderful bright spot in this company.

    Thoughts? Anyone been thru something similar?

    1. Jadelyn*

      Do you think you could trust your former manager not to get you pushed out before you’re ready, if you’re honest with her about your capacity to stay? What if you told her, “I know you wanted me to stick this out, but it’s so bad I can’t. For the sake of my own health, I need to get out of this environment ASAP. I’d love to be able to do that by coming back to The Good Place, but if the only way to do so is by waiting for six months, then that’s not going to be possible for me.”

      1. Izzy Legal*

        MAYBE. I think she would be receptive, but the issue would be her running it up the flagpole. OldBoss knows that I’m miserable and want to come back to The Good Place ASAP. But I’m concerned “the powers that be” – the level above my former manager – wouldn’t be open to it, unless/until I show up with another offer for them to counter.

        Thanks for your reply and advice! I like how you worded it.

        1. TechWorker*

          My situation is not worlds away (posted further up). I agree it’s worth going back to your manager. It is sort of an ultimatum though so I guess you need to be prepared to leave – it sounds like you already are though!

          (I am totally with you on ‘the job is affecting my mental health which means I can’t give my all to the job’. It sucks, wishing you better times!)

        2. ..Kat..*

          If it takes an outside job offer for them to offer you a job at the good place, I recommend you research what Alison has to say about counteroffers. My recommendation: find a good job elsewhere and take it. Don’t even consider a counteroffer. (And, there is no guarantee that they would follow through on their counteroffer).

    2. WellRed*

      I think you should look out for yourself. Cut your losses. You are valuable but you are not being blocked because you are valuable. That’s BS. You sound willing to cut your losses. Do it and you owe nothing to former manager but polite thx/polite explanation, solely for the reference. If she wanted you that bad, she’d have made it happen.

  141. Anony Mouse*

    Anybody take the MARC train? What’s it like, commuting-wise? I see a couple folks show up 7:30-3:30 work then leave asap–my current schedule is 8:45-4:45. It seems like all the affordable places to purchase/plus square footage all require a MARC train…anybody who did this?

    1. Tigger*

      My Dad took the MARC train for years going into DC and he loved it. Are you going, Brunswick or Penn?

    2. MARC Snark*

      My friend who takes the MARC train has occasional issues with the train stopping for a long time with no explanation, or stopping and going back to Baltimore, or trains not coming…….. but not daily, seems like a couple times a month.

    3. SufjanFan*

      I haven’t done the daily commute, but it’s a very popular option from Baltimore (where I am) to DC. One thing to consider is that the MARC goes into Penn Station, which only has the Red line (I believe). So depending on where you’re commuting to/from, you may have multiple switches on the DC Metro.

  142. Incantanto*

    Spent a week at a conference which was fab.

    Could do with advice on one thing. I’m an industrial synthetic scientists, doing research.

    The amount of times I’d talk to a phd student or postdoc and go “I’m in industry,” and they’d reply with “I’m a scientist,” was aggravating. I’m also a scientist, thank you. Any idea on decent responses to that?

    1. Auntie Social*

      They’re toddlers. Tell them you’re a scientist, working on XX at YY Co. Or you can say “Yeah, me too— but I’m employed.”

  143. I Work on a Hellmouth*

    Hello from the Hellmouth! I’m still here, watching the place metaphorically burn. The current management company has been flogging me non-stop to get all of the off-boarding work done (which is very difficult when there are still no other actual office employees other than The New Dude, who has zero work experience and doesn’t know how to do any part of his job, and two temps with zero access to any of our systems). No one—even the random corporate overlords who occasionally show up to “help” (ie, do some stuff I don’t have access to and repeatedly ask me why I am not done with X when they are present and have observed me dealing with phone calls, residents, and vendors with literally no break in between to move to involved paperwork)—know who the new management company will be, and we were supposed to know no later than last Tuesday. Oh, and my current company and all of the software and support systems and what not that we use “may or may not” go dark next Friday. So. That seems weird.

    The regional VP also apparently hired a new manager for the property, but didn’t tell me. I found out well after the fact when a visiting corporate person asked me if I was excited about her. Allegedly she is starting on the 24th, but we’ll see—yesterday I asked if she knew about the current company going out of business/us being handed off to someone else/no one knowing who that would be yet, and was told “I asked Regional VP, and she said she thought maybe she had sent a text message about it earlier today.” If I was the new manager, I would probably be pretty upset. Just saying. Oh, and Awesome Temp (who was supposed to be here through mid-July) just found out about ten minutes ago that our corporate overlords never told the temp agency about the change in management, or that they wouldn’t be paying the temp agency past June. EVERYTHING IS TOTALLY NORMAL AND ABOVE BOARD.

    In addition to the constant whipping coming down from corporate to get more and more stuff done as quickly as possible, the residents have COMPLETELY LOST THEIR MINDS. Not because of the company ceasing to exist, because they don’t know about that. Maybe because of the heat? Or extra demonic influences? I am not sure. Guys, I had a resident scream at me because she dreamed that she paid her rent and was infuriated to learn that she did not do so in reality. I had another resident make me hand her money orders to Awesome Temp (who was next to me) so Awesome Temp could hand them to her because she did not want to take them from me because she thought I had “a rude face.” That’s the level of bananas I am dealing with.

    On the job hunting front, I got a few “my fault for not submitting my stuff earlier (I had been knocked out with the zombie plague for about a week)” rejections, some good leads, and I have been forwarded up to the next step for a few good positions with the state (which I am very excited about). My chances for the state positions seem decent, but the hiring process is extra slow—however, my former Rockstar employee, The Good Leasing Consultant, put me in touch with a local class A property looking for a leasing agent. I’m considering taking a job with them (so I can get the heck away from here), but continuing to pursue non-property management jobs/riding out the lengthy hiring process for the state. Except it makes me feel kind of hinky to possibly take a job that I would be actively trying to leave ASAP? But I also don’t think I can handle much more of the Hellmouth, and also don’t know if there will be anyone paying me after the 30th to boot. I have an interview for next Monday, so I am extreeeeeeeeeeemely open to opinions and suggestions, wise people.

    On the Hellmouth wildlife front, the Squirrel Army currently has some serious competition for property mascots. We now have three tiny armadillos hanging out under our porch who routinely come out to frolic underneath the azalea bushes. It is the only bright spot here. I’ve named them named them Wynken, Blynken, and Nod. Nod is a dummy, and is my favorite. So cute!

    And that’s the latest on the never ceasing dumpster fire that is the Hellmouth.

    1. Veryanon*

      I really hope you are putting together a book or something of these posts. Wynken, Blynken and Nod! Brilliant!

      As for the interview, eh, if it gets you out of the Hellmouth, even as a temporary bridge to something better, I’d go for it at this point. You’ve got nothing to lose.

    2. Meißner Porcelain Teapot*

      Thank you for all your updates, Hellmouth! Never a boring Friday with news from your neck of the haunted woods.

      You know your former rockstar employee much better than I do, but my gut strongly said “nope nope nope” as soon as I read about that offer. In my own experience, taking jobs/apartments recommended by friends/colleage has never been a good thing and this job you mentioned is in an industry which you are actively trying to break away from. Even if it is a hundred times better than the Hellmouth (and it is guaranteed to be, even if it is a toxic cesspool on fire), it’s still more work in a field you don’t want, plus work you’d likely move on from quickly if one of the state jobs pans out. That would leave you with two consecutive short term positions to hide/cover on your CV, which is… not exactly ideal. That said, state jobs are notoriously slow in the hiring process, from what I understand, because of a whole bunch of red tape, so those could indeed take quite a while to get back to you.

      I think in your case I’d keep looking and pursuing those other good leads and if the rockstar-recommended job comes back with an offer, maybe put off accepting it for as long as possible and take it only if nothing else comes up. In any case, I wish you good luck and hope to read a happy ending to this story soon!

      1. I Work on a Hellmouth*

        Well, I’ve been at the Hellmouth for (OMG I can not believe this) one year come the 28th, and I don’t think I can be faulted for the company ceasing to exist… and frankly, I was not planning to put the (potential) leasing job on my resume at all. My biggest concern is that we still haven’t been told who the new management company would be, which seems VERY odd, and I am starting to think it’s highly possible that there won’t be one come the 30th. Also… I have some pretty real safety concerns here. I dunno. It’s tricky.

        1. Nerdy Library Clerk*

          What exactly happens if there is no new management company?
          (I sort of want to hug the management company that manages the apartments I live in for being pretty much the opposite of everything you’ve been going through. And my fellow tenants for not being hellmouthy either.)

          1. I Work on a Hellmouth*

            You know, I don’t really know. And in all honesty, whether I get/take the leasing job, I don’t plan to find out. If I’m there until the end of the month and no company has been announced I will not be there on July 1st.

            (I also am not working any more Saturdays, starting this weekend. But that is just because they’ve made me work all Saturdays for the last three months, and enough is enough.)

            1. Nerdy Library Clerk*

              That is more than enough Saturdays. It’s been more than enough of everything. (Except armadillos.)
              May you have a nice, low stress job before the end of the month!

    3. Peachkins*

      You do what you have to on the job front. Maybe you’ll get the leasing agent position and end up liking it- weirder things have happened, right? Lol. Who knows how long the state will take. My husband applied for a position with our city, didn’t hear back for months. Was then sent a LETTER IN THE MAIL (no other correspondence) telling him when his interview was and asking him to call and confirm. He went, didn’t hear anything from them for another couple of months. Ended up getting the job.

    4. Weegie*

      Dream-rent? As in non-real, imaginary, totally made-up rent? That’s the kind of rent I’d like to pay! Especially if it’s for a castle in the air…

      Since you asked for advice, my vote is to take a property job at a decent company, if one becomes available to you. I’d love to say ‘hold out for a non-property job’, but at this stage I fear for your continued sanity, not to mention stability of employment. Maybe a period, even a short one, at an okay company will be enough to allow you to rebalance, breathe, and spend time pursuing your longer-term employment goals.

      Continued good wishes, whatever you decide!

      1. Willow*

        I agree. Take the job if it’ll be better than where you are now. It’s not great if you leave after only a few months, but it won’t hurt you or your rep–as long as you don’t make a habit out of it. And where you are now is not only unhealthy but potentially dangerous that you really need to get out as soon as you can, however you can.

        1. Happy Lurker*

          Plus, Hellmouth isn’t exactly sure who or if there is any work after the 30th! I would leave just to be with Rockstar and get away from Hell.

          I do wish there was more attention paid to the armadillos. Alas, with all the other updates it is understandable.

          Best of luck Hellmouth – with EVERYTHING!

          1. I Work on a Hellmouth*

            I have a picture of the armadillos (well, of armadillo butts, actually, it was the best I could snap) awaiting moderation. :)

      2. I Work on a Hellmouth*

        DREAM. RENT. And she wanted her substantial late fees waived. And was enraged that I couldn’t do so.

        1. Narvo Flieboppen*

          I wondered what happened to my friend’s crazy ex. Now I know.

          He woke up one night to her repeatedly punching his shoulder. Because she dreamed he cheated on her. She acknowledged it was a dream, but continued to hold it against him as if it actually happened. She was cray cray, yo.

          I could easily see her behaving this way over someone’s refusal to acknowledge dream rent.

          I once dreamt I won the lottery. Maybe I should sue the lottery commission for not acknowledging my dream winnings.

          1. I Work on a Hellmouth*

            Oh wooooooooooow. That is a special level of crazy. I would not be shocked if it was the same person, to be honest.

            I dreamed that I was best friends with Ryan Reynolds and we had a monthly karaoke night. I should probably get in touch and find out when he’s showing up for that!

            1. Narvo Flieboppen*

              That honestly sounds like the kind of thing Ryan Reynolds might just show up for if invited. Maybe even as Deadpool.

              Please make the attempt and report back to us. :)

      3. EddieSherbert*

        Ditto. I know it’s not ideal at all, but I would seriously consider the other property management job. If you end up leaving it during the first few months there, just leave it off your resume – you have an “easy” explanation for a gap since your current company is basically going out of business…

        1. EddieSherbert*

          Amended: I would seriously consider the other property management job… if there are NO RED FLAGS during the interview stage!

    5. BookishMiss*

      I’m so glad you have armadillos! Adorable wildlife definitely helps.

      I’ve been reading your updates since you started updating, and I have my fingers crossed so hard for you to get out of there.

      1. Seeking Second Childhood*

        There’s one tiny (!?) problem with armadillos that makes it inevitable that they’d show up on the Hellmouth : they’re a vector for leprosy.

    6. Bee's Knees*

      The rude face and being handed things only works if you are Tony Stark.

      And not to darken your bright spot, but is the do-nothing maintenance guy going to try and get rid of the armadillos? Or are they sort of the three fates situation come to pass judgement? Love the names, btw.

      1. I Work on a Hellmouth*

        Oh, the armadillos will not be touched. Oh! I can’t believe I forgot! The rotten maintenance supervisor gave notice! He will be gone after the 24th!

        I also forgot about The Creepy Groundskeeper shenanigans this week, which started out like this:

        Creepy Groundskeeper:

        Me: Oh, hey Mr. Groundskeeper! I’m actually really sensitive to that stuff, and I’ve been having some terrible respiratory issues. Can you please stop spraying that?

        Creepy Groundskeeper:

        And since that happened, every day that I come in the area all around my desk has been spray bombed. Joy.

        1. Bee's Knees*

          Well that’s so… thoughtful. To poison you like that on top of everything else. What a nice touch.

          And yay! I’m glad that he will be sucked back into the hellmouth from whence he came.

        2. I Work on a Hellmouth*

          Ooops, forgot about html tag stuff. Allow me to correct that:

          Creepy Groundskeeper: *walks through entirety of office steady spraying cheap and strongly scented disinfectant that he is using as an air freshener*

          Me: Oh, hey Mr. Groundskeeper! I’m actually really sensitive to that stuff, and I’ve been having some terrible respiratory issues. Can you please stop spraying that?

          Creepy Groundskeeper: *makes hard eye contact, keeps steadily squirting foul heavily scented spray, never says a word*

          1. Ra94*

            Actually, it worked well with no text showing up, too, because it was just creepy silence!

    7. triplehiccup*

      Does the Awesome Temp recommend her temp agency? Your situation sounds like exactly what temping was made for. If it weren’t summer, I’d recommend substitute teaching–even middle schoolers know that dream rent is not a thing, and you generally end up with a decent amount of free time during the day–maybe if your area has year-round school or you need something this fall?

    8. irene adler*

      Please do not work one minute for them without pay. And don’t believe their ‘promise’ to pay you if you stick around after the 30th.

      1. I Work on a Hellmouth*

        Oh, they haven’t promised. They just … have been largely silent. I’ve been reaching out to my meager contacts at other properties and my one corporate contact that isn’t Regional VP (who does not/will not communicate with me) and asking for updates. It’s the only reason I know about everything potentially going dark next week. And NO ONE knows anything about what new management company might be coming in–apparently all of the other corporate people are harassing my one good corporate contact about who the new management company will be, because they all want to see if the new company is hiring (since they are unemployed come the 30th).

        But yeah, if I don’t have anything else lined up, and the first of July comes and there is no new company to pay me, I am just going home and filing for unemployment. Sorry, Hellmouth.

    9. CupcakeCounter*

      OMG! Armadillos!!!!!! IRL!!!!!!!!!!
      I live in Michigan so we only have their hideous step-cousins the opossums. I now want an Armadillo.

      Any chance you can take the leasing agent job as a temp/contract position while job hunting? Might be worth asking.

      1. I Work on a Hellmouth*

        Nope, it’s regular full time or bust. But it’s also clean, nice, appears to have a competent manager, and no one has been shot there. And they would definitely pay me post June 30th.

    10. JustaTech*

      I hate to add to the weird, but in the interest of public safety, please don’t touch the adorable armadillos; they carry leprosy. Yes, seriously. That’s actually how most people get leprosy these days, is handling armadillos.

      Good luck with the state jobs!

      1. I Work on a Hellmouth*

        Oh dude, I know. I fell down a wikipedia rabbit hole when the first armadillo started hanging out under the porch. No worries, I have no desire to pick them up, just to observe their cuteness.

        And thanks!

    11. Tina Belcher's Less Cool Sister*

      Oh my god take the job!!! Even though it’s not ideal, ANYTHING is better than the literal dumpster fire – meets demon maw you’re currently in. It would tide you over while you keep up the job search, and hopefully having this in your back pocket will be enough to turn the job-searching tides your way. Don’t feel bad about doing what you have to do to take care of yourself.

      Good luck!

    12. CatCat*

      It’s not the greatest to take a job hoping to leave it as soon as possible, but honestly, I’d still do it under your circumstances. First of all, your health and safety come first and getting out of the Hellmouth is key to both those things. Second of all, you might be out of a job two weeks from now and bills gotta be paid. I mean, this is a slam dunk neutral reason you can give at your interview without having to bring up all the crazy (“Hellmouths R Us is shutting down at the end of the month so in light of that, I’m looking for a new position.”). Third of all, you’re hoping to move into a different line of work, but that could still be a long time coming. It is not a certainty that the opportunities will pan out any time soon (especially with a government job, the *fastest* I’ve moved into a government job after a first interview was two months).

      And if the job does pan out, cross that bridge when you come to it. “A great opportunity fell in my lap and I couldn’t pass it up.” It happens.

    13. All Hail Queen Sally*

      I so look forward to your posts! It is the first thing I look for every Friday. I live in a large apartment building and sometimes share your stories with the very nice girls in the front office. They get a kick out of them too. Thank you for sharing!

    14. fr*

      “Except it makes me feel kind of hinky to possibly take a job that I would be actively trying to leave ASAP?”

      Absolutely go for the new job if it’s offered. If one of the state jobs is offered, you can use the reason that their hiring process takes so long that you thought you were out of the running. And “thank you for the opportunity, but I can’t pass up this other opportunity that I thought was gone.”

    15. animaniactoo*

      Here’s my only caveat to taking the job that’s coming via GLC: Would HE feel burned by you noping out of it if you get a state position 2-6 months down the line?

      Because otherwise, there is nothing to lose here by pursuing that job in the circumstances you’re in. The only reason to hold back imo would be not to screw a guy who is a good guy and has been helpful to you throughout all of this. Unless he’s okay with being screwed to help you escape, in which case GRAB THE LIFELINE AND GET THE FARK OUT OF THERE.

      1. I Work on a Hellmouth*

        Actually, no, he wouldn’t. It’s not with him or his new company, he knows about it because the assistant manager there has been trying to poach him for a few months. He actually suggested that he recommend me and I take it and just keep applying/interviewing for non-property management positions until I could peace out.

        Property management jobs (particularly leasing positions) can be kind of notoriously high turn over, so as long as I did good work while I was there it wouldn’t burn any bridges for TGLC.

        1. animaniactoo*

          It’s better money than unemployment. Take it and run. At worst, it gives you breathing space to continue to keep searching if nothing comes through relatively quickly on the job hunt.

        2. pcake*

          I’d go for it. It’s going to be more money than unemployment and you can keep applying, as he says.

          Because I’m not sure what would be worse for you – if they new company let you go or kept you on. I mean, who would want to own the company that runs the hellmouth?

        3. Nerdy Library Clerk*

          Nthing take the job and run.
          The Hellmouth wins some kind of horrible job award and you don’t even know if there is a job after the 30th. (And why do I fear that you would either pull up to work on the 1st and find everything shut off and the tenants rioting or find out when you fail to get your first July paycheck that there is no one actually paying you or running the place.) You have stuck out more than enough to send most people fleeing for the nearest hills.

    16. Karen from Finance*

      I kind of assumed that the source of all evil in the Hellmouth was Hellboss. I had this idea that with her out of the picture the curse would be lifted and you could maybe even start to thrive in there. I would never have imagined that the disfunction and madness goes all the way to the top, but I guess it makes sense, as it’s exactly the type of environment that would have let her reach and stay in power for so long. I’m just terribly sorry.

      1. I Work on a Hellmouth*

        Well, as terrible as it has been (and this is literally the worst job I have ever had–and I am including crappy high school jobs at the mall), on the plus side I have not only outwitted and outworked Hell Boss, I also witnessed (and assisted) in her vanquishing, I outlasted McGruff and two awful maintenance supervisors (the guy running a side business during office hours instead of doing his job, the current gem who is a sexual harassment poster child and who also ACTUALLY WROTE “dog shit” ON AN OFFICIAL FORM THAT I HAD TO SEND TO CORPORATE THIS WEEK), and I learned that I can very calmly handle a number of terrible things, including putting my office on lock down (the meth head incident), residents trying to punch me out, fires, and so on. So… if I ever wondered how much I could handle in life, I now definitively have an answer. And I DO have horrifying stories to last me the rest of my life. I guess that’s… something?

        2. I Go OnAnonAnonAnon*

          I think you have the “describe a challenging problem you’ve faced at work and how you handled it” interview question in the bag; your biggest challenge will be narrowing down just which bat-sh*t crazy story you share!

    17. Nicki Name*

      “Oh, and my current company and all of the software and support systems and what not that we use “may or may not” go dark next Friday. So. That seems weird.”

      Once upon a time, the large company I worked for bought a chunk of another large company that was being broken up. Our chunk happened to include the facility where the IT department for the entire broken-up company was based. To keep the other chunks operating until they could be transitioned to their new owners’ systems, contracts had to be drawn up to let the IT people in our chunk continue to provide services to them.

      So there might be something like that going on, where the old company is still working out with the new company if you’ll be allowed to keep using the old company’s systems during a transition period.

      1. I Work on a Hellmouth*

        Maybe. But the corporate people are all freaking out and I have a really bad feeling about it all.

    19. Anono-me*

      If the class a job is a decent normal job, you probably wouldn’t leave it unless something really great turned up. I say go for the class a spot and hope for the best; if they a turn out to be a JR HM in sheeps clothing, then you can leave guilt free.

    20. Jean (just Jean)*

      Good gracious and great balls of fire — your workplace sounds so terrible that even Satan would be packing a suitcase.
      You have done yourself proud in facing down and surviving all manner of deviously thuggish opponents. It is time to take shelter at whatever opportunity presents itself first, best, and/or best-paid. In other words, I vote with everyone else encouraging you to take the class a property job if nothing else arises between now and the end of the month. Or even to take it starting Monday even if you have to leave two weeks later because another organization makes you an even better offer.
      P.S. You also write engagingly!

  144. Ms. FS*

    I just came here to vent and hope maybe somebody could give practical advice for this (besides all the advice articles are already giving me). I’m a director at a small nonprofit in the tech sector and my CEO (my boss) is a micromanager. At first I just thought she was a tough cookie and if I worked hard to give her updates/meet her expectations/communicate/be productive her micromanagement would abate some. Instead its just gotten worse. Today alone I got emails from her in the wee hours of the morning asking when I was going to send out an email that we had discussed on Wed (these emails were not as urgent as my other things she knew I was doing). She also wanted to review my emails to other people a lot of the time, even when its not really necessary. She wanted an update on where my staff are on projects and what they are focusing next even though we work on a project plans and I update her weekly anyway. She’s also irritable and quick to bark out orders. Anyway, these are all just the issues I’ve gotten today, and I’m getting really demoralized and less able to compartmentalize. I’m a high performer and I know it but its gotten to the point that I get paranoid every time I need to make a decision or email a person. Should I check with her first, even though its on the project plan? Should I cc her on this email even though its a basic question about my program? I’ve never experienced this level of oversight in my entire career, and I’ve been in senior management for 10+ years now. I’m having a hard time today mostly because I’m still working my ass off, trying to make the organization successful, and her style is so harsh when you are a high performer. Ugg, sorry, vent, vent. If anybody has advice that doesn’t include figuring out if I’m the problem or trying to meet them at where they are, I’d appreciate it. This problem is even coming into my therapy sessions at this point so I know its gotten bad.

    1. Glomarization, Esq.*

      Maybe have a sit-down with her, framed as “we need to get on the same page about communications, this is a different level of engagement from my boss than I’ve experienced before, and you know how long I’ve been doing this.”

    2. Karen from Finance*

      This may not be the best piece of advice, but something that has worked for me in the past when dealing with micromanagers. Take it with a grain of salt.

      What’s worked for me is this. Don’t try to resist it or push back, instead, overwhelm them with too much information. When a micromanager feels you’re not letting them know about what you’re doing, they get nervous and start asking for more updates and more information, so insted give them just that, and they’ll get tired. The beauty is that they’ll be the ones requesting less updates. It’s the passive-agressive route but it can be effective.

      So for example: CC her on EVERYTHING. Send her regular updates on stuff, even the most unnecessary ones. Send her emails titled “FYI – Current Open Items” with bullet points of each task that you’re already planning on doing, what the status is on that, what you’ve already agreed on doing. It’s infantilizing, yes. But this way you’re documenting and you’re showing her that yes, you know what you have to send those emails. Also, if she asks you a question about what you’re doing and the answer is a 20 second sentence, extend it to a 3 minute explanation. Keep this up for a while, and eventually she’ll pull back (maybe a month, maybe a couple, depending on the person). Etc. The point is to wear her down by anticipating her requests, and giving her just a little bit more information than she needs.

      1. Ms. FS*

        Thanks for this advice. I actually did some level of what you are suggesting and she came back to me and complained that I was focusing too much on operational issues and not enough on strategy. She also cuts me off if I explain too long about something (even though she does need the context in my opinion) and demands I get to the point. I’ve gotten to the point where I just cannot figure out how to resolve this and think that maybe I can’t resolve it!

        1. Karen from Finance*

          Oof. Sounds like she can’t be pleased.

          Have you checked the archives here? I think I recall Alison’s advice for dealing with micromanagers involving asking her if there’s any issues with your performance that she’s worried about, genuinely asking her, as a way of starting this conversation.

    3. Minocho*

      I had a manager like this. He was promoted over the senior people as a new college grad because he was a he and not a she (literally, all experienced women, some with previous management experience, were skipped to hire him a junior dude into management positions). I had three years experience, and had trained him in the job before he got the promotion – but once he was promoted, he would literally stand behind me and tell me what keys on my keyboard to press. It was bananapants crazymaking.

      I…am not good…at social stuffs. I had a friend who was, so I asked her how to address the micromanagement without napalming all the bridges. Her suggestion was a script like this:

      “I would like to talk to you about what you need to see from me in order to be able to trust me to [insert things you need to do here].”

      There’s some modifications you can do here as necessary. Maybe a few sprinkled “empowerment”s or something, depending on the prevalent buzzword bingo popular at your office. But something like that might be worth a try.

    4. WellRed*

      You are not the problem. Any time a manager wants to micromanage emails etc I think it’s a lost cause. You are a high performer. Take that elsewhere, which I realize is easier said than done.

  145. SufjanFan*

    Hi all! Wondering if anyone had any insight on burnout. I’ve been at my current role (in marketing) for just over a year. When I accepted the job, I thought it was going to be 80% managing the email program, 20% other items. It has proven itself to be 95% writing (email, web, video, digital ads, social, etc), 5% other things as I can fit them in.

    I really enjoy writing, so, at first, this wasn’t an issue. But for the last couple of weeks, I’ve been feeling *really* uninspired and also exhausted. I pretty much do the bare minimum in terms of creative that I can do while still being moderately successful. (Worth noting: my boss has been very happy with my work; I got a glowing performance review and a raise. She hasn’t said anything to me about my work being subpar lately.)

    Does anyone have any tips on how to feel less burnout and more refreshed in terms of creative work? (I’d love to take some PTO, but my company’s PTO policy is abysmal.) It’s getting to the point where it’s taking me so long to get up in the morning, because I’m not motivated by my job anymore.

    1. Karen from Finance*

      What’s your life outside of work like? Any hobbies, activities? The phrase “self care” gets overused a lot, but it is important to do more of the things that make you happy, even little things and even if you don’t really feel like it at the moment.

    2. WellRed*

      I’m a person actually hired to write and it’s easy to hit that burn out phase if no inspiration. It’s one thing to enjoy writing, it’s another to be expected to produce on deman when it wasn’t your primary focus. I think your bigger problem is an unreasonable company. Time to look around.

  146. resume help*

    Not sure if this is allowed, but I was wondering if I could get some feedback on my resume. I’ve been using suggestions from AAM, but I’m not sure if I’m doing it right or even highlighting the right things. I work in marketing which makes me feel like I should be able to do this really well, but I’m not the best at promoting myself. I can share with personal details removed if this is allowed here.

    1. Zona the Great*

      This is allowed on the Friday thread….ask away! People here have awesome suggestions

  147. HereKittyKitty*

    Advice needed, please!
    I’m in a somewhat unexpected position of possibly having multiple job offers. I’m expecting to hear back for a third interview today, with maybe an offer next week (if all goes well), but recently 3 other jobs have reached out for phone interviews too. The job I’m waiting to hear back from is my top choice- if I get and accept an offer from them, do I cancel the phone interviews? Is that rude? If I haven’t heard back with an offer when the phone interviews take place, do I tell them I’m interviewing at other places as well? Do I give them a heads up?

    I’m just trying to make sure I use good etiquette!

    1. Lisa*

      Great situation to be in, but not less stressful.
      If you get an offer and accept, then cancel all following interviews at other companies. That’s not rude but considerate of their time.
      Up until you accept an offer from anyone, continue to interview. It’s expected that you will be interviewing with multiple places, so I don’t think you need to disclose that explicitly to anyone.

    2. An Adult Woman*

      If you get an offer before the interviews, definitely reach out to cancel them- it’s a waste of your time and theirs to keep interviewing. You can just email “I appreciate the opportunity to interview, but I recently accepted an offer. Good luck on your search for an ideal candidate!” or something like that. When this happened to me, the employers really appreciated it. It’s totally normal and it would be rude to interview when you already accepted an offer.

      Your top choice surely assumes or knows that you’re applying and interviewing elsewhere so there’s no need to tell them. If another place gives you an offer first, you could try and reach out to Top Choice and see if they’d accelerate their timeline for you (there’s lots of great verbiage on AAM!) but they might not be able to. Definitely don’t lie about having another offer in case they say they can’t get back to you soon and withdraw you from candidacy themselves.

    3. The Man, Becky Lynch*

      Yes, if you take an offer and therefore are off the job market, reach out and cancel any standing interviews letting them know that you’ve accepted an offer and are no longer available.

      Otherwise you’re opening up a big issue if you continue to interview and just have to reject job offers, you’re wasting their time and most people aren’t fans of that.

  148. naha*

    I have a coworker, “Jane,” who I only very rarely work with because the nature of our work is very different. However, it’s a small office, so I do know Jane and am work-friends with her. Recently, Jane was complaining that people thought she was “prickly” and “sharp” in her performance review.

    Here’s the problem – she TOTALLY IS. There is like a whole host of things in my head I never talk to with Jane because she can be, well. Sharp.

    I went “Oh, how weird,” because I didn’t know what else to say, but I’ve been thinking about it all week. I shouldn’t say anything right?

      2. Llellayena*

        “You need to have an iron rear
        To sit upon a cactus.
        Or otherwise at least a year
        Of very painful practice!”
        Jack Prelutsky

    2. Ron McDon*

      I used to work with someone who was very renowned as being sharp and prickly.

      Sometimes someone would indicate that they thought she was being rude, and she would turn to me, in complete amazement, and say ‘did I come across as rude?’… and I would be thinking ‘YES!! How can you not know this?!’.

      I would usually say ‘yes, you did sound a little frustrated’ and she would be excessively polite and helpful to everyone for a day or so, before sliding back to her usual surly self.

      I say, don’t bother saying anything. She either knows she’s sharp and doesn’t want to change, or doesn’t realise she sounds sharp and therefore is unable to change. She can only stop doing it if she can hear herself doing it, and in my experience people who are like this just don’t realise that they are.

      You have my sympathies, it is so awkward working with someone like this.

    3. WellRed*

      If you worked with her all the time, maaybe. But you don’t so you ate off that sharp hook. Ideally, she reflects on this.

  149. HeightsHeifer*

    So I just accepted an AMAZING new job and I’m so excited to be taking a few weeks off between gigs. One of the great parts about this new job is it’s much closer to the house and I’ll be able to take public transportation — something I haven’t done before. So I need advice from those of you that do commute by bus/train/subway — what do I need to prepare for? Backpack versus purse? Comfortable shoes? HELP!

    1. An Adult Woman*

      I LOVED commuting via subway because I hate driving. When I was in DC, I’d either leave my work shoes in the office or carry them in my bag and wear comfy shoes during the commute. Even if you’re like me and wear comfy shoes to work most days, this will save your work shoes from being worn down quickly, a lesson I learned the hard way. I’d carry a professional-looking tote bag or backpack depending on what I needed that day (laptop, books, etc). Also, not sure what city you’re in, but lots of large cities have started banning plastic bags, so I had a reusable bag that folded in on itself that I’d pack everyday in case I needed to make a stop for something on the way that wouldn’t fit in the tote/backpack. You can subscribe to theSkimm or NYT for daily news briefings to read on the commute if it’s not long enough to justify whipping out a book, which is what I did and it was great!

      1. HeightsHeifer*

        I’m in Houston – a city not exactly known for its public transportation options. I like your advice about comfy shoes – do you have any recommendations? It can often be rainy in this tropical humid climate and I also worry about wearing out my work shoes.

        1. An Adult Woman*

          Oh I’m in Dallas again now so howdy! I really love my jandals- rubber slide-on sandals- that are like $8 on Amazon (search Hawaiian rubber sandals or Jesus sandals if nothing pops under jandals.) They dry quickly and last ages, but are cheap to replace when they eventually do wear out. Plus they are unbelievably comfy and perfect for wearing in the rain or after the rain if you don’t mind getting your feet a little wet and don’t have rain boots. Carry socks with you if you need socks for the shoes you wear at work. Sneakers also work!

          Also don’t forget headphones, a snack, little things you may need throughout the day (oil blotting sheets, ibuprofen, etc) and you’ll have to watch the weather more vigilantly to know to bring a small umbrella or what outerwear is needed.

    2. Anax*

      Backpack or purse are fine – but make sure it’s something you can comfortably fit in your lap, and if you turn around in a crowd, you won’t accidentally smack folks. Even if a commute is usually pretty empty, holidays/events/weather can make public transit super crowded.

      Unless you commute via a notoriously regular service, expect occasional delays; I planned for about half an hour, for my trip. That means whatever you wear should be comfortable for at least half an hour while standing at the stop. If you plan for ‘five minutes outdoors’ and then the bus breaks down, it’s… not fun.

      Recommended bag essentials: Small umbrella, spare socks, granola bar, ibuprofen/acetaminophen. When I started commuting by public transit, I would always forget that I couldn’t just pop out and grab something from home, or leave things in my car for emergencies. And there is nothing worse than stepping in a puddle on the way to work, then having to work with frigid, damp feet for the rest of the day.

      There is likely to be an app for your public transit system – either a dedicated one, or Google Maps. They’re great.

      Over-ear headphones are also great – plausible deniability if someone weird tries to talk to you. If you work ordinary commuter hours, this is unlikely, but any off-hours travel can get a little weird.

      1. HeightsHeifer*

        OMG thank you for the headphones recommendation! I haven’t been able to listen to podcasts or audio books at my most recent job and I’ve forgotten that this might be a thing…

    3. Glomarization, Esq.*

      If you’ve mostly only ever taken transit during non-peak hours, be prepared for it to be a lot more crowded than you’re used to.

      Have your cash or fare instrument in your hand and ready to go when you arrive at the turnstile or the machine on the bus for-the-love-of-all-that-is-good-and-holy.

      Definitely keep your office shoes at the office rather than wear them during your commute. As for other outerwear, consider that you may need a warmer parka and a longer raincoat than you’d need for the “commute” from your front door to your car.

      Backpacks do look a little silly with officewear, but you see them more and more as (a) younger people are entering the workforce, and (b) older people are trying to save their backs.

      1. HeightsHeifer*

        As a current and native Houstonian, the thought of needing a parka for any period of time is a hilarious visual.

        1. Glomarization, Esq.*

          LOL

          Then maybe the other direction: Plan your arrival so you can de-sweatify and clean up a little in the bathroom before you get to your desk. The worst is when you’ve cooled down in the A/C blasting on the bus/train/subway, but then you’re a mess once you get back indoors because of those last couple of blocks between the bus stop and the office building!

    4. Zap R.*

      – Dress in layers, especially in winter. Crowded platforms and train cars can get very warm very quickly.
      – Figure out what parts of the subway are elevated and/or get cell reception so that if you’re delayed, you know what spots you can send a text message or email from
      – Wear deodorant. It is shocking how many people on public transit do not do this.

    5. University of Trantor*

      Congratulations on the new job! I did public transit (bus and subway) for my commute for a few years before getting a new job and switching to a car shortly thereafter.

      If you have your own desk or locker, keep a pair or two of nice work shoes at work. Wear more comfortable and waterproof shoes on your commute.

      If you’re in a major city, there is probably a website page or Twitter feed from the transit authority which will detail delays and closures. Keep track of these updates. A mobile app that tells you when/where the next bus is coming is also helpful; there’s usually at least one of these apps for many major cities.

      If you have a long commute and a phone battery that doesn’t last so long, consider carrying an external USB battery pack with you that you can plug your phone’s charger into.

      Always carry a brimmed hat, umbrella, or some other sort of apparel to keep rain off of you.

      If you can buy a transit pass through your employer with pretax dollars, you should do it.

      Know a secondary route for getting to/from your workplace. If a subway line goes down, it’s nice to already know a backup alternate bus route.

      1. HeightsHeifer*

        I’m very lucky that the new employer fully subsidizes the cost of taking the bus, versus the $12/day that it costs to park downtown!

    6. Jaid*

      I use a insulated tote bag, big enough for lunch, a liter bottle of soda, a paper and other incidentals. Some snacks, a small fan (if the air breaks down, you’ll need it), some water and a spare charger. Some trains have outlets that people can use to recharge, but I don’t know about Houston.

      I don’t like backpacks because they bang into people.

      If you have a transpass, make sure you can find it easily and keep it secure… I keep mine in one of my cellphone pockets. Others keep them in their badge holders.

      Keep a spare pair of socks/stocking at your desk in case your feet get wet.

    7. Auntie Social*

      Do a trial run on the bus one day, and see what you think you’ve missed on your “take this” list. See how long it takes to get from bus to desk, is there a place to get coffee or breakfast once you’re off your bus, etc.

      1. HeightsHeifer*

        I love the trial run idea! I think my husband and I will try that out next week and explore the area near the office.

    8. Anono-me*

      Sanitizing wipes, and one of those little rain ponchos that come in a teeny tiny bag for about $2 at the grocery store.

      I also liked to have very strong breath mints with me, they seem to help when the bus was stinky

      1. Anono-me*

        Also find out the name of a good local taxi company or make sure you have one of the ride apps on your phone, just in case things go weird and you need to take a car ride home. You probably won’t need to do it more than once in your life, but you don’t want to be figuring it out in the moment, if it ever does happen.

    9. sunshyne84*

      You can download the InTransit App so you can track the bus or train arrival times. You can also sign up for alerts from Metro for whatever route you take and you will get texts if its broken down or has some other delay. You can use the q-mobile ticketing app to pay, but if you have a voucher from your job they will put it on a card. I would just be sure to be aware of your surroundings at all times and program Metro police into your phone, just in case! Also, I have an umbrella that fits in my purse and I keep it there because you know how unpredictable the weather can be. Whatever type of bag don’t have something too flashy. Not trying to scare you, most people will just be going to work as well, but….. Taking a trial run would be a good idea so you can figure out your shoe situation. If it rains and you have to walk somewhere there isn’t a sidewalk you don’t want muddy feet.

      1. HeightsHeifer*

        Oh that’s brilliant with the InTransit app! I was thinking that Houston was a little behind the times, but I’m obviously a naive car commuter so what do I know??

    10. yeine*

      Long time commuter advice:

      1. Get something that you can completely close (no open purses, anything valuable in outside pockets, etc). Pickpockets love an open purse. No strong feelings between what kind of item you’re carrying, but make SURE you either put it on the ground between your feet (i put one foot in a strap so it can’t be walked off with), or carry it on your front so you’re not taking up space or hitting anyone with it.

      2. Leave time to learn if your mass transit option is actually reliable with scheduling. Do you have bus times app that gives you up-to-date bus locations? Paper schedule? Some busses suck at getting there “on time” for whatever that means, and if you show up late because the bus was late like four or five times in a row, you start to look bad, not the bus.

      3. A good pair of noise-cancelling headphones or earbuds is going to help you out a lot! I don’t know what the mass transit is like in your city, but mine has a pretty serious homeless crisis, so suffice to say there are some “interesting” characters on the bus. Keep to yourself.

      4. The bus is usually a lot more crowded during rush hour than other hour. Try to be courteous with time and space – have your ticket, cash, card, etc, out before you get on the bus, pay quickly, and move to the back to fill in empty space. DON’T STAND IN FRONT OF THE DOOR. It will probably be crowded; you’ll just have to get used to that.

      4. Wear deodorant and comfortable shoes. You might have to stand.

      5. A crowded bus can be pretty toasty quickly. Layering is usually good so you can drop a layer if all that human heat gets to you.

      6. I am a big bus reader and I always recommend everyone else become a bus reader. However, it’s not a bad idea to look out the window and start to accustom yourself to your neighborhood and where the bus goes. You can use it to get to other places too, and it strengthens your brain to work on spatial navigation!

      7. Rejoice in supporting public infrastructure, saving the environment, and not having to park.

  150. Candid Candidate*

    I don’t really need advice, I’m just here to gloat about a work conflict that I think I handled well, thanks to some patience and stealthy sleuthing.

    The short version of the story is that I work in Marketing for a large tech-adjacent company, and I’m supposed to collaborate with the Creative Team to develop some of our customer-facing content (think: videos, emails, articles, social.) I’m supposed to oversee their work and make sure it meets our brand standards, Legal standards, and our client’s standards. Except a handful of people on that team, including senior management, have tried to disregard the oversight process several times. I usually get stuck in the middle, passing down extreme frustration from my Marketing managers when they discover that the Creative Team has gone rogue again and published something without our approval. One of the senior managers for the Creative Team, Fergus, has tried to blame me for this, saying that I’m not collaborative. I usually get a kindly-worded but nevertheless annoying email from my boss reminding me to take a collaborative approach with them. This isn’t remotely true; I respond promptly and professionally to him and his staff (some of whom I’m friends with!), and I advocate for them a lot with our Legal team to get work reviewed quickly. What’s weird about all of this is that I used to report to Fergus on the Creative Team last year before a company-wide restructuring landed me in my new role. I don’t understand why he throws me under the bus like this when I’m actually eager to collaborate (it saves everyone a headache when we get it right the first time!) but he continues to treat me like a pesky subordinate. IDGAF what Fergus thinks about me; I just don’t want it to come back on me that something problematic got published because I wasn’t paying attention or doing my job thoroughly, when it’s really the Creative Team’s fault.

    Well, this week we found a video that they wrote, produced, and published on our Client’s website without our oversight or Legal approval. Senior leadership got upset, Fergus sent his standard reply to my boss that I wasn’t collaborating with them… except this time I HAD THE RECEIPTS. I remembered to log into the shared Asana account and the Google Suite, and found documentation proving that they never showed it to me, AND that it happened while I was still sitting with their team (I didn’t move offices for my new role until a few months later). I showed it my boss and we had a good talk about collaborating in good faith and everything I’ve done to try to make the relationship between our teams (and my relationship to Fergus) work. I feel confident that he’s in my corner and that he’ll be more skeptical of Fergus’s narrative going forward.

    1. CM*

      That’s great! I’m glad your boss finally believes you. It sucks that Fergus is throwing you under the bus like that. I wonder why that’s happening? Did your boss have any ideas, or suggestions about how you could improve your relationship with Fergus? (Not that this SHOULD fall on you, but it seems like everything would go more smoothly if you could figure out what’s driving Fergus to go around you in the first place and then to blame you for it.)

      1. Candid Candidate*

        Good question. I’ve puzzled over this a lot, and personally I think Fergus’ behavior is a combination of 1) he used to be my supervisor and for some managers it’s hard to adjust to a more co-equal relationship when an employee no longer reports to them. 2) He’s a dude in his 40’s and I’m a woman in my early 30’s. His behavior is pretty on-par with what I’ve experienced from other men who just don’t trust that women are capable and that their insight matters, especially in the tech industry. Other women Fergus works with have expressed the same sentiment: he doesn’t listen to them or take them seriously. 3) The IT Division manages his team, and IT and Marketing (my division) have a long tug-of-war history over who owns what and who gets the final say on pretty much every project. My boss’ perspective, when I’ve asked him, is mostly focused on #3, which sorta bugs me because I feel like everyone is resigned to This Is Just How Things Are Here, which is unhelpful.

        1. WellRed*

          Maybe he throws you under the bus *because* you used to report him? I do want to throw in one outside random thought: does your team or legal uh, bottleneck things at all? Cause, while that doesn’t make the creative behavior Ok, i have some sympathy as someone who sometimes gets planned commentary from outside sources that gets mired in the legal dept. Ugh. If it needs to go through legal, build it in on your end, not mine ( said in my head about my problem, not yours ; )

  151. An Adult Woman*

    I’m much younger than the rest of my office (23- one other woman is 29, but most people are mid-30s-50s) and I’m the newest person (1 month!) I’m learning quickly and doing well and my boss says I’m excelling and commended me on my ability to catch on so fast. Normally I don’t care about my age because I’m used to being the youngest person in a group since I went to an early college high school and went straight into my MA from undergrad and I know how to act and dress professionally. Plus I figure that we’re all adults here, so what does it matter?

    But other people are not so unbothered! There have been comments like “are we working with a teenager” to which I respond cheerily, “nope I’m an adult woman!” or while explaining a key code that had a # in it, an older man very condescendingly explained that this was not a hashtag, but a pound sign, and did I know what a pound sign was, to which I replied “of course I know what a pound sign is” with a smile. But today in the lunchroom, this woman proudly described walking up to her 21yo daughter, who doesn’t live at home anymore, to yell at her in public in front of her friends about her shorts length. This then devolved into a discussion about how women in their early twenties- hey, like me- don’t know how to dress, don’t respect themselves, will have a hard time getting jobs (as if anyone would wear short shorts to an interview?!), and on and on. I gave them* some major side-eye and walked away because I feel like I’m too new to have the capital to spend on confronting them. I’ve tried to be nice while still firmly establishing that I am an adult and their colleague, but how should I handle these kinds of comments going forward?

    *This was a group of about 8-10 women. My office is 90% women, and the men are mostly senior and not in the office most days anyway so this isn’t men making degrading comments or anything. My boss is actually really great and relates to me on this because even though he’s in his mid-30s, people often think he’s closer to my age (very Chris Treiger-esque!)

    1. The Man, Becky Lynch*

      THIS IS NOT NORMAL and you should not be subjected to this treatment.

      Sure, you’re not protected by age discrimination due to your youth but you should run this to HR as harassment. I’m not kidding.

      I was always the youngest because I started working in offices at 19, I didn’t go to college. Nobody ever disrespected me like this, it’s vile and unacceptable. This is creating an ugly bullying environment and it needs to be addressed.

      I would stick with short responses and just ignore them. Along with seriously, tell your boss what’s happening.

    2. CM*

      I think you’re handling it perfectly.
      If you’re willing to be a little more confrontational, you could say something like, “Hey, you realize I’m in my early twenties, right? I don’t think that I, or other people my age, have trouble dressing and respecting ourselves.” (Or something better than that.) I think that if you’re young-looking, especially if you’re perceived as being non-threatening, you can get away with saying a lot as long as you have a smile on your face and a pleasant tone of voice.

    3. TexasRose*

      At the one month mark, simply walking away is probably the best option.

      At the six month mark, you might try a simple: “How stereotyping. Hmm.” And _then_ walk away.

      Just remember that this IS the stereotypical “hen pecking” used to keep younger women “in their place.” Don’t take it personally, any more than you would with harassment from a group of Mean Girls. (Cold comfort, I know.) One strategy for keeping your cool is to study them as you would a tribe of bonobos in the wild.

      1. London Calling*

        *One strategy for keeping your cool is to study them as you would a tribe of bonobos in the wild*

        I have a girly clique in my office and it’s AMMMAAAAAZING how treating them as an anthropological or zoological study defuses their behaviour and my irritation with it. It’s especially useful when the hour long chats occur and I can pretend it’s hooting and screeching in the treetops as the troupe communicates. OMG, they have language!

    4. valentine*

      I’m thrilled hashtag is taking over because the term pound sign has not been useful in my lifetime. Number, yes; pound, no.

      I hope these fiends don’t wear you down.

  152. Overeducated*

    Finally I’m busy! Somehow it feels like all the work piled up into the last 2 weeks of this 3.5 month assignment. Or maybe I’m just getting into the rhythm of it.

    In other news, I have an in person interview for a transfer Tuesday, which is a little shocking given that three separate people have told me there’s an inside candidate and it’s a stretch in terms of duties for me (if they wanted to hire that person, they really didn’t have to let the interview process stretch on this far, this isn’t one of those “have to bring in 3 candidates” situations). Wish me luck, I really can’t afford the day off right now so I hope it’s not a waste of time.

    It would also involve moving my family to a smaller city 1.5 hours away with a less robust job market, so any advice on what hints to look for to get a sense of whether it’s a decent work environment vs toxic cultural hellhole? Spouse and I would both probably prefer to live in smaller city just for the slightly lower COL and better commutes, but spouse will have to switch jobs in the next 3 years and I will have fewer options if I want to change, so there are definitely risks.

  153. EnfysNest*

    I’m considering starting to say flat out “Please stop apologizing to me for cursing,” to my coworkers, because it’s so annoying when they constantly stop to say sorry to me for something that doesn’t remotely bother me at all. I’m in a department of about 10 people (and, yes, we’re in the south) where I’m the only woman. There are 4 or 5 of us who don’t curse or who curse very rarely, just by personal choice, but none of us have or would ever ask others not to curse at all. The others don’t curse excessively, just occasionally, and it’s not seen as a problem when they do. Except that, when I’m in the room, 2 or 3 of them *constantly* make a show of censoring themselves, or even each other. Halfway through a sentence, they’ll freeze and whip around to face me to say “Oh, I’m so sorry,” and then “correct” to a milder word. They never do this for any of the other men who don’t curse. I can be in the office next door and overhear them talking with other non-cursers, but as soon as I join the conversation, suddenly the censoring starts.

    I don’t have ANY problem with them cursing. And I’ve told them that repeatedly. Every time they do this, I’ll say something like “no need to apologize” or “doesn’t bother me” or, if I’m particularly annoyed by it, “why are you apologizing to me – I’ve said I don’t have an issue with it.” I definitely don’t make faces or cringe or anything else when they use the curse words – I wouldn’t even notice them using the words if they didn’t stop and draw attention to it. It usually takes a moment for me to even figure out what they’re apologizing about. I watch and listen to several shows and podcasts where cursing is prevalent, so it truly doesn’t register with me.

    Like I said, this is never done when the other non-cursing men are in the room, only when I’m there, so it’s clearly because they don’t want to curse “with a lady present” (something that has actually been said a couple times). This is really the only thing in my office that makes me feel singled out for being a woman. I know it’s a mild thing, but it happens often enough that it really does annoy me.

    But it still feels like having a sit-down meeting with the two main offenders would be making too big of a Thing of it, though. Even saying something more in the moment just feels like more of a derail, when the issue is already that they interrupted the flow of conversation to draw attention to me being a woman for no reason. But my repetition of the softer comments above have not had any sort of lasting impact, even though that’s been my go-to response for over a year now.

    Does anyone have any experience with addressing this sort of issue and having good results? I worry that even if I try the stronger “please don’t” language, it still might not have any effect and I’ll just be drawing even more attention to it / causing more of an interruption when it happens. I’m not going to start cursing to join in – it is a personal choice that I have made related to my faith (though I have never discussed that choice or my reasons with anyone at work and I similarly don’t know anything about the reasons that the non-cursing men on my team have for not cursing). Part of me wants to just ignore it completely, but then I also feel like that would look like I’m accepting the apology, when it really does bug me. I can’t imagine elevating this to anyone higher – that definitely feels like making a bigger deal of it than it is, but I just wish they’d knock it off.

    1. Not a Real Giraffe*

      I would have a very hard time not saying something to the effect of, “I am not a delicate flower. Please stop apologizing to me for cursing.” and then pointedly ignoring them the next time they do it.

    2. Not at all a Lady*

      I’d have a very hard time not saying, “Cut the f***ing apologies out, please. They’re sexist,” but that’s me.

    3. Admin of Sys*

      Unfortunately, you’re likely to run into the same problem that people have when they hang out with folks that don’t drink. Regardless of whether or not you actually care, they’re going to project their internal guilt issues upon you, because you are not participating in the perceived-as-bad behavior.
      You could try the ‘rolled eyes and scoff at the apology’ reaction? A semi confused ‘Why would I care?’ in response to the apology might get some traction as well – and I would question them on it. Ask why they’re apologizing in an honestly confused way – if they something like ‘because you’re a woman’ then you have a point to make about not being treated differently and hopefully the framing of it as a gender equality issue will shift the actions towards equity one way or the other. If they say something like ‘it’s unprofessional’ and you know for a fact that they /only/ apologize when you’re around, I’d call them on the discrepancy. Something like ‘that’s odd, because you never apologize when it’s just you and Fergus’.

      1. Interplanet Janet*

        This.

        “I’m sorry!”
        “Why?”
        “I cursed”
        “And ? ….”
        “It’s rude to curse in front of a lady”
        “Yeah, I think it’s much more rude to treat me differently because of my sex.”

        Lather, rinse, repeat. I would think they would tire of the conversation eventually.

    4. AccountantWendy*

      This is flat out sexist. I don’t know that I have any good advice, especially since it’s been openly stated by the men that they are censoring themselves because you are a woman. I’m sure they see that as “being polite.”

      Maybe “Good manners means not treating me differently because I’m a woman. When you apologize, you’re engaging in sexist behavior that’s disguised as good manners. Since you clearly value being polite, please stop apologizing: it interrupts the work we’re doing and singles me out as a woman, instead of an equal co-worker.”

      And then – don’t engage. You don’t need them to agree that it’s sexist; you just need them to stop doing it. It’s really important not to get dragged into a debate or having to justify yourself. “I don’t need you to agree, but I am asking you to stop” should be your mantra.

    5. Close Bracket*

      Since telling them directly to cut it out has not caused them to cut it, move into passive aggressive territory. Don’t be a complete snarky jerk, but no longer respond using your words (since they don’t work). Make eye contact and try:

      -blank stare
      -raised eyebrow
      -giant sigh
      -eyeroll

      Hold each just until the silence gets uncomfortable, then drop eye contact and back to work.

      The best bet, however, might be to reframe this as something they do that doesn’t reflect on you and your preferences at all and work on not letting it get to you.

    6. Anono-me*

      Tell the worst to offenders to ” Stop being such F___ing Eddie Haskells* and get over yourselves.”

      Shortly after I started a new job I found out one of my co-workers prefered not working with me because almost every other word out of his mouth started with f and he was uncomfortable self censoring or swearing around me. This was not my first job where swearing was common. (In fact my previous job, swearing was actually more of an art form or a competition.) So I told him in very very colorful terms to get over himself and that saying f__ was not that big a deal. Then I went right back to being my normal self. He picked his jaw up of the floor and became a great workfriend.

      I am sharing this under the assumption that this swearing is normal for your industry and workplace and also that these are normally nice guys who are just old-fashioned and clueless and need a kick in the pants.

      *You may want to pick a more modern reference of someone who’s a smarmy little kiss up to grownups, but I couldn’t think of a well-known one.

      1. Anono-me*

        I just realized that I suggested using
        f__ because I think it’s crude, but I don’t consider it cursing like four letter words that start with G, D, or H . However I don’t know if you feel the same or consider it a distinction without a difference. I am sorry.

    7. sunshyne84*

      The Good Ol South! I haven’t experienced this in awhile and not ever at work that I can recall.

    8. The Man, Becky Lynch*

      They’re probably never going to quit.

      This is like our old debates from awhile ago about Sir/Ma’am being whipped into a person as a child and not being able to break the habit, even though it offends and annoys people all the same.

      I do believe that you can push back strongly each time and say “you know that’s one of those sexist problems that are ingrained in our society under the falsehood that it’s “manners”, I’m not delicate or going to faint away when I hear you swear.” so they get it really clear but again, they will most likely not change despite being told all that.

    9. TexasRose*

      How about, just once, telling the group: “I’m much more offended by your blatant sexism than by your potty mouths. Please stop treating me differently than you treat male colleagues. You don’t apologize to them for using off-color language, so don’t apologize to me just because I’m* female.” This explicitly calls out what you are offended by, and what they can do about it.
      * Subversive alternative: “because I present as female”

      Don’t expect instant compliance: this stammering is likely a strongly ingrained habit, possibly instilled by soap-in-the-mouth aversion therapy.
      Whether/how often you follow up later lapses is up to you. Possibly a simple: “The apologies are still sexist, folks. Please stop.”

  154. AudreyParker*

    Apropos to some recent posts here – any advice on being more mercenary “it’s just business” when job hunting?

    I have been on a very protracted job search, and recognize that part of that is possibly my own fault. I’ve been hesitant to pursue part-time opportunities or anything obviously untenable because I feel a responsibility to whoever hired me, recognizing they will have spent a chunk of money and time onboarding me and planning around my presence, so not wanting to put them in a position of having wasted that money and time if I leave after 2 months for something else. Of course, if I had done that when I first got laid off and actually found something, I’d have been there for 2 years now, but hindsight is 20/20.

    I’m now also in the position of wanting to relocate (no specific destination ID’d, just some possibilities, but also starting to be open to most anywhere less expensive!). Which means I’ve also started avoiding looking for a long term opportunity where I currently live because of the above reasons. But I also need work so that I can eat and have a roof over my head. Temp agencies (so far) have not been working out. Remote opportunities I see have been ridiculous and the same situation – I don’t want to commit to something I have no intention of fully committing to (I can’t live off a freelance rate of $17/hr long term).

    I recognize I’ve kind of backed myself into a corner here. This overly-responsible mindset is combining with my lack of confidence and non-specific work history to position myself as completely unemployable. Which is not an option, unless I start shopping for a tent now. The “your company would easily kick you to the curb tomorrow” angle doesn’t help, because I feel more responsible to the individual people vs a nebulous corporate entity. It basically feels like lying if I apply for anything I can’t see committing to for at least a year. Does anyone have advice for how to overcome this??

    1. Morningstar*

      Consider that there’s a real possibility that you will be there for a year. Maybe consider jobs with short-term contracts or seasonal work if you feel you could commit to a few months. Ask yourself if “being nice” is genuinely more important to you than having food and shelter (because so far your actions demonstrate that it is). It is a real problem & maybe therapy would help.

  155. Nessun*

    So I finally had the talk with my direct report about her contract, and what we can do afterward. I realize it’s not my place to solve her problems, and the best solutions to my own problems may not be in line with hers, so I’m walking a line today between “ARGH I should have phrased that another way” and “Welp, can’t do anything”. Truly, the convo had to happen, and she’s better knowing now what options we can provide (we’d totally hire her permanently, and I did secure confirmation of a pay hike for the role), but I’m feeling rather sad I couldn’t meet her hopes for what the job could be (she wants more mobility than we can offer for a myriad of political reasons) – and I’m sad that this might mean she leaves us when her currently contract is over. Not only would we lose someone we’ve enjoyed working with and who is a great employee, but I’d have to *UGH* interview people remotely.

    I hate the interview process…the company takes forever to do things! And it’s entry-level admin work, interviewed by Skype across the country – I spend half the interview explaining how the group works, to every prospect. Ah well…I’d rather not do it, but our current contract employee needs to do what’s best for her, and that might not be us, since we can’t accommodate the move she’d like to make. (I’m also a little worried about if she accepts but keeps searching for something closer to her preferred city, and we lose her later. Why am I borrowing trouble?!)

  156. I have to laugh*

    Omg y’all. I gotta share this. Our company has been having turnover like I don’t know what for the past few years. One person a week has been quitting at this pace. No one in leadership has been addressing it. Until now. At our company wide meeting.

    It started with the CEO saying how he appreciated us staying even though every year we have less time, less resources, and less pay. We are a family. (Silence.)

    He continues. “So we are starting a revolutionary system. Next week you each will be getting 6 gumballs. Every time your peer does something amazing, give them a gumball. At the end of the year, the people with the most gumballs win 3 hours of annual leave. We believe this will help with retention and appreciation.” Silence. He looked like he was Steve Jobs revealing the first iPhone. Hesitant clapping when we realized he was serious. I cannot.

    1. Not a Real Giraffe*

      The reward is THREE HOURS of vacation time? That’s not even half a day!

      The gumballs crack me up. The couldn’t come up with a non-edible token that conveys the same thing. Where are you supposed to store these gumballs? I hope people just hoard their own gumballs, buy packs of identical gumballs to add to their collection, or just eat them all.

      1. Rebecca*

        This is exactly what I would do, encourage everyone to buy bags and bags and bags of these stupid gumballs and fill giant jars of them EVERYWHERE.

        What the actual…just when you think you’ve heard it all…

      2. I have to laugh*

        I don’t think they’d pay for non edible tokens lol. I feel like gumballs was the most economical thing in their mind. And cuter.

      1. CatCat*

        I would love if there was a post dedicated to collecting stories like this of clueless, out of touch efforts to improve morale or otherwise retain employees.

    5. CatCat*

      Oh dear. So instead of finding out the real issues and addressing those in a meaningful way, this is the plan. Heavens.

      One wonders, how many people will just toss out their gumballs? And also, will some ambitious and sneaky soul just go buy some gumballs to add to their stash.

      1. I have to laugh*

        They said we have to work on an honor system! But I imagine there will be at least a few who will buy a jar just to be snarky.

    6. Toodie*

      A YEAR OF SAVING STICKY, SWEATY, LINT-COVERED GUMBALLS AND ALL YOU GET IS THREE HOURS!??! WTH?

      Can’t imagine why anyone would want to leave.

    7. AudreyParker*

      O M G This is something else that impacts my job search: terrified of ending up in the land of revolutionary gumballs…

    8. L.S. Cooper*

      Frankly, I’d rather just get a gumball whenever someone thought I did a good job.

    9. Middle School Teacher*

      I hope you all throw the gum balls at him. (Not really, but also yes.)

      2. I have to laugh*

        And yes, I’ve been hunting but I don’t know how to frame “Management tried to pay us in gumballs” nicely XD

        2. WellRed*

          That answer might get you an interview for the curiosity alone. File it under can’t make this s**t up.

      1. ThursdaysGeek*

        And that’s about the federal minimum wage, so for those potential 3 hours, you could buy 15 pounds and have a lot more fun than less than a half day off. I’d be giving away gumballs every day for every reason: “Oh, you said ‘hi’, here’s a gumball.” “Oooh, you’re carrying papers so well, have a gumball.” “It’s Friday – gumballs for everyone!”

        Keep in contact with your former co-workers, after you find your next job. You’ll want to know how he reacts to the miracle of the gumballs – he passed out 6 per person and a year later he collects 12 baskets full of gumballs.

    12. The Man, Becky Lynch*

      Bless his sweet summer child heart. Just pinch those cheeks and squeal like a meemaw seeing junior all grows up.

      Three! Hours! and Gumballs! GUMBALLS! Those are gonna be so stale and gross from being passed around *sobs*

    14. Gumby*

      I’d be tempted to chew my gumballs and turn in a piece of paper or something with dried gum at the end of the year. I mean, it’s a slightly more professional reaction that sticking them to the underside of my desk…

      1. valentine*

        Freeze them on sticks and turn in a sculpture with a Ruth Bader Ginsburg doll holding them.

  157. Mrs.DorianGrey*

    Hello AAM community, I need some advice for my friend.

    He’s a recent grad in electrical engineering who lives in a city two hours away from where I am located, which is a big city with lots of jobs. His city is not super known for being the hot area for jobs in his field.

    The plan is for him to get a job in my city and move in with in as my roommate. Is it bad advice if he uses my address instead of his current one that is two hours + away when applying for jobs in my city?

    Would this help him get a better response or could it hinder him? I don’t want to suggest it if it could turn negative for him in anyway. Thank you.

    1. An Adult Woman*

      He can definitely use your address, especially if he’ll be living there eventually anyway! Totally okay. And 2 hours isn’t too terrible of a commute for an interview or two if needed so that eliminates the usual worries about using a local address when you’re actually out of state, etc.

  158. Keanu Peeves*

    What kind of positions would you recommend a recent college graduate (~1 year since graduation) to look for?

    A friend graduated from college around a year ago and recently quit an entry level job-related to her original field of study (healthcare). Now she wants to move onto a different field but doesn’t know just yet so she’s applying to entry level receptionist/admin assistant positions to get a paycheck while taking classes on different subjects at a local CC to figure out what to do in the future. But she’s having no luck at all? I was wondering if maybe the hiring managers are passing off her resume because of her college degree, since most of these positions only require a HS degree. Like what if the managers think that my friend will only stay for a few months and then leave for a “better” position? Please note that my friend did work in an office setting for a year during college but not much else on her resume other than stellar GPA from a good school and volunteering experience.

    1. The Man, Becky Lynch*

      She’s getting passed up because she has no experience in administrative assistance or reception it sounds like.

      If someone is freshly graduated, with has a small amount of experience in an unrelated industry, you are essentially at square one. You have to find somewhere without much competition and just hope for a lot of luck in most situations!

      If she thinks her degree is an issue, it’s totally okay to leave it off her resume for the receptionist jobs she’s applying for and see how that goes.

  159. Scarlet Magnolias*

    I have an issue that I would like some advice about. I have severe plaque psoriasis, most of which I can hide with long sleeves etc. I am waiting for a biologic medicine to kick in. However it is on my hands and extremely unsightly. I would like to think that I am too self-conscious and that no one really notices at work, except I get a lot of comments, some quite judgey “what did you DO to yourself?” etc. My go-to is humor “it’s leprosy and it’s contagious” or “I got burned rescuing kittens from a fire” or “why would you ask a question like that?”
    My immediate co-workers are kind and do not make comments.
    Any suggestions? If this is something I should post on the weekend thread, I will, but it mostly impacts me at work.

    1. AccountantWendy*

      Oh no! My sister also has this, and if you don’t know what’s going on it can look alarming. She covers hers with super large bandaids; that’s an option. For something more fun and less medicinal, can you wear fingerless gloves?

      https://www.etsy.com/market/fingerless_gloves

      Obviously it would depend on your workplace dress code and people will still comment, but it might be less exhausting to just say “I like to wear them” than to be constantly on the defensive about personal health information.

      I also LOVE “Why would you ask a question like that?” because your health conditions are no one else’s business and we need to remind people that questions like that are weird and awkward by making them feel weird and awkward for asking them!

    2. Parseley*

      Oof, that’s really frustrating, to get the same sorts of questions over and over again. I’d try to make it as boring as possible for the question-asker, like “It’s a medical condition” or “it’s a medical thing I have,” followed by a subject change. The well-intentioned but misguided will probably back off, and the less well-intentioned can get the follow-up, “It’s weird you’re prying so deeply into my medical issues.”

    3. L.S. Cooper*

      Are your hands cold at all? I recently got some fingerless compression gloves to help with some severe hand pain, but it’s also freezing in the office (VERY enthusiastic AC), so that’s my go-to justification– I’m just covering up because I’m chilly!

    4. Not Me*

      I’m sorry you’re dealing with that! I have bad skin conditions (rosacea, psoriasis, and dermatitis) and to make it even better, I’m allergic to most topical treatments. When I get unwanted comments (“What happened to your neck‽‽”, “You got a lot of sun this weekend!”, etc) I usually respond with some variation of “just some allergies acting up.” with a smile and change the topic. “just some allergies acting up. What did you do this weekend?”

      It usually shuts people down pretty quick because it’s boring and if the topic change redirects to them, they’re happy to talk about themselves.

    5. Bunny Girl*

      I actually think you handle it really well. I have eczema and in the winter my hands look really inflamed so I’ve had similar questions. I think because your coworkers are kind, if they do say anything, maybe just be matter of fact. That’s normally what I do. Just “Oh I have severe eczema and it normally kicks in during the winter” and then just keep going. If someone is unkind about it, yeah ask them why they need to ask that question.

    6. Slovenly Braid Cultist*

      If your doctor can give you a topical to tide you over, I recommend it– I’m pretty well controlled on biologics but now and then my hands get crunchy and some swift steroids are a godsend.

      Fingerless gloves or mitts are great- especially if you can blame the air conditioning.

      All that said, after many years I’ve gotten good at being up front about it and it’s helped; even knowing there’s nothing wrong with having a chronic condition, I had a lot of shame about my psoriasis. It’s been good for me to just get it out the… but I’ll admit that it’s a lot easier not to be self conscious when you’re relatively well controlled.

      Hoping your meds go well! Biologics made a world of difference to me, fingers crossed they’re good for you too.

  160. AccountantWendy*

    I need to vent. Due to our company’s growth, a storage area was converted to an office area. They put in a row of desks, including some standing desks, and built in a new conference room and a new office. This was a full conversion, not just “shove some desks in a storage room.” The CFO is going to be in the new office, if that tells you anything. My department was the one moved into this new area – so now instead of individual cubes, we’re at the long row of desks. Yes, it’s been an adjustment but overall the space is modern and professional and a lot nicer than our 10 year-old cubicles.

    One co-worker, who drops by several times to have a (work-related) conversation, always opens with a joke related to the new space. Examples from this week:
    “I must be lost – I was looking for accounting but this is a call center!”
    “Can I have 2 burgers and a medium fries?”
    “Excuse me, I’d like to dispute this charge on my bill.”

    This is really getting under my skin. There was a LOT of negativity from my co-workers about this move. People did NOT want to give up their prior work spaces. Now that we’re in the space, people have adjusted and seem to be happy (at least outwardly). So to have this co-worker coming in every week and making jokes at our expense feels like he’s giving life to that negativity, even though he’s not in our department and thus not affected by the move.

    This definitely doesn’t rise to the level of something that requires a conversation: we all ignore his “jokes” and I don’t interact with him directly…but I needed to get it off my chest. I don’t know even know why it gets under my skin so much – I like my new desk and am happy with the move!

    1. Nacho*

      It gets under your skin because he’s laughing at you. Even if you don’t feel it’s anything to be embarrassed at, it’s still hugely unprofessional to make constant jokes at your coworker’s expense like that.

      A quick, tart “Look Bob, we’re trying to have a positive attitude about the changes here, and we don’t really appreciate your jokes.” might make him understand. And if/when he tries to brush it off as being “just a joke”, you can point out it’s not a funny joke, and you’d really appreciate it if he didn’t make it anymore.

    2. Reliquary*

      Flat affect. No smile. “We actually like it.” Repeat until he tires of your response, and of his own tired joke.

    3. MJ*

      Bob: “I must be lost – I was looking for accounting but this is a call center!”
      You: “Accounting is on the 17th floor (or whatever floor number doesn’t exist in your building).” Head down, back to work and ignore.

      Bob: “Can I have 2 burgers and a medium fries?”
      You: “You’ve jumped the queue, sir. Please go the end of the queue and wait to be served.” And then ignore.

      Bob: “Excuse me, I’d like to dispute this charge on my bill.”
      You: “Certainly sir. Take a number and wait to be called.” And then, of course, ignore him ad infinitum ‘cos his number will never be called. Bwahahahahahaha.

      1. AccountantWendy*

        @MJ – these were pretty awesome! I think I’m going to continue the tactic of just ignoring it since I don’t interact with the employee directly. I did say once “Do we need to put up signs? You keep looking for customer service and ending up in Accounting.” (Since we do, in fact, have a customer service dept!)

  161. Got Groomed*

    This week, I reported a professor I know for developing inappropriately personal relationships with his students, including me. I had to go through a ton of previous e-mails to produce documentation, and the end result is that I feel icked out and disgusting.

    Any words of support or commiseration? What should I do to clear my mind?

    1. CM*

      I don’t have any advice, but want to offer support — it’s brave of you to speak out about this, and you’re doing something really valuable that also requires a lot of time, energy, and emotional exhaustion.

      If I were you, I’d probably try to distract myself completely over the weekend — find a friend, run around outside or do something silly. I hope that icky feeling goes away soon.

    2. AccountantWendy*

      I also don’t have advice, but do want to commend you for having the wherewithal to do this. It must have been hard. Thank you for speaking up and out.

    3. beanie gee*

      Thank you for doing this. There are probably a lot of students who will benefit from your actions, even if it doesn’t seem like it at first.

      Ditto-ing the seeking out a friend you can spend some time with this weekend. Especially if you can just talk if you need to, or if they can keep you busy if that would help.

    4. Honoria*

      Ugh.
      You did a good and important thing. On behalf of so many women and girls, thank you.

    5. Policy wonk*

      Thank you. Far too many creeps get away with stuff like this because it is so hard to report. If you haven’t seen it yet, watch Captain Marvel. You have the power – picture yourself glowing!

    6. Reliquary*

      I’m a professor, and I am very proud of you.

      This week in my city, there was a major newspaper story about a predator in a position of power at a university, and all I have been thinking about is the isolation that all these students clearly felt, and how empowered I hope they feel now that they know they were not alone. Many of them are former students who are now excavating memories that they buried in order to survive and move past these horrible experiences. I bet many of them feel like you do – just disgusted by the professor’s behavior and angry about this betrayal.

      What I want to say is thank you. Thank you for doing this service for your university, and for the many generations of students to come.

      Now, please give yourself some really gentle self-care. Do things that make you feel good about yourself and your body and your solid ethical actions. Watch a beloved movie. Get a massage. Laugh with friends.

  162. The Man, Becky Lynch*

    Pet Peeve venting session? Please join me if you feel so inclined *groan*

    I absolutely loath how some reps from some vendors act like they’re the only vendor on the face of the universe and how it’ s such a major event that requires some low-key level of chastising your client when they don’t do it “your way”.

    I put in orders for countless vendors, I have for almost two decades at this rate. Everyone is similar, they have somewhere to send them, however each one has a different system. Some go to the reps directly. Some to go a general mailbox. Some have to be faxed [yeah buddy, that’s a thing still], some have to be called in. It’s fine, I keep notes.

    However then we get the curveballs thrown in. A rep has already accepted our orders. So la la la I send one over every few months. This one is forwarded to another rep who gives me a lecture about how it should go to their general box. Okay cool, didn’t know that existed, thanks for the heads up. Then it turns out that no, you cannot just order and not include prices because you don’t have current ones on file. Nope, they insist on making you get a quote first and then making sure all the numbers add up. Fine. Doing it. ANOTHER LECTURE about that though.

    And even though we are a solid company, can give your references all day long our account is denied any credit terms. Fine, wanna keep a credit card on file? Oh absolutely note, we don’t do that here. Okay can I fax you the credit card information? [They’re archaic so I know they’re the faxing kind of people]. Then it’s a weird exchange where she then double checks that I’m sending the card information and I guess not just a scribbled piece of paper in crayon that says “Charge our card” or something bizarre like that.

    The point of streamlining your order procedure is to avoid issues and to get your customer’s orders out so you can collect that money. So making things so weird and nitpicky, I dream of being inside these walls looking at their books to see how lucrative they are or even better, how awful their numbers are because they waste so much GD time and I’m on the hunt for a new vendor, for very easily obtained materials that others sell all over the place.

    Mostly. Don’t lecture me. Remember that you and your company are not the only ones in the world and things are done differently in the billions of other places that operate in the universe. [Grouchy grouchy grouchy so grouchy]

    1. L.S. Cooper*

      My pet peeve is chasing people down for various bits of information. It’s all stuff I need on a regular basis– reports every month, slideshows every week– and they are TERRIBLE about getting it to me. I wouldn’t mind so much if I wasn’t hands-down the youngest person in the corporate branch of this company (pretty sure there’s some high schoolers at the retail stores), and if these people hadn’t been doing this for years.

      Also, shoutout to the one person, Katie, who always gets her materials to me by 3pm the day before I need them. I cherish her and her organization.

      1. The Man, Becky Lynch*

        That would drive me up the wall! I can only handle chasing down a very select few at any given time. This is why small business is the only business for me. I’d die if we just randomly tripled our workforce.

      2. Karen from Finance*

        Oh, thiiiiiiis so much.

        This one person once sent me his part of the data the very moment I was walking into the meeting where I was doing my presentation. And then he interrupted the presentation to point out that the figures weren’t accurate, making me have to point out why that was, and airing our dirty laundry in public.

    2. Auntie Social*

      I always envision Gringott’s Wizarding Bank from Harry Potter, staffed by elves using ledgers and quill pens.

      1. The Man, Becky Lynch*

        This mental visual is perfect.

        I tend to envision the “accounting” department from Cable Girls myself but I like elves so much better.

  163. Anon Anon*

    Just want to rant a bit anonymously as some of what I’m going to say might be pinpointed back if someone from my workplace reads this.

    So I work in essentially IT support. The company (a multinational one) has decided to replace yearly bonuses with monthly incentives. It sounds nice on the outside but these incentives aren’t based on our actual performance like how quickly we take care of cases, how our social skills are (are we empathetic to the customer, don’t sound mean, etc.), go the extra mile to help, etc. but rather based on customer survey ratings. That’s right, no longer is it something we can control, but now it’s based on the whims of how the customer is feeling (if they even fill out the survey at all). And it’s one thing to get an actual legit 1 star if say, you flat out refused to help a customer when you could have, but almost everyone’s 1 star reviews have nothing to do with how we did as a representative but rather things like “I hate X company!” or “You didn’t help me at all!” (over a problem we’re not able to actually help with and they were told so, or they refused to do the actual steps) etc. It’s very demoralizing, especially when most of us have high performance in everything else, our supervisors tell us we’re doing great, only to miss out on a small bonus each month because you got the randomized cases where the customer isn’t going to be happy regardless what you do. Now to be fair our supervisors do understand this is very off-putting but unfortunately have no control over it as it came from people higher up, and many of us have voiced our objections over it. But geez, makes me want to leave ASAP and find a new job where my bonus is not dictated by things outside my control.

    1. An Adult Woman*

      Customer surveys are basically useless to companies IMO. Customers often don’t know how to give actual, valuable feedback. When I was a server we were required to get 10 customer surveys a week (like from the bottom of the receipt) and of course that never happens so we just filled out the surveys ourselves since customers always left them on the table- got nice reviews, avoided a demerit or write up, and got $8 off appetizers so win-win-win for us but it did nothing to benefit the restaurant in any way. I think there were 2 genuine surveys filled out the whole time I was there and one was to complain that our company policy to not sing birthday songs ruined a 5yos day and ask why we hate children. The alternative if your situation where they mostly have nothing to do with you at all! Hopefully the higher ups realize this is Not Good soon and end it.

      1. Red Reader the Adulting Fairy*

        Companies don’t usually know how to ask good questions for feedback either, I’ve found. A while back, I did a customer service survey that asked me if this was, quote, the best customer service experience I’ve ever had. Dude, I called up to change the card I was using to pay my autopay. No, it wasn’t “the best experience I’ve ever had,” but it was perfectly satisfactory, met my needs, accomplished what I was after with a minimum of hassle. I said yes (it was yes/no) because I didn’t want to screw the guy over on the responses, but what a dumb question.

    2. AudreyParker*

      Ugh this is terrible, especially since so many people ignore surveys unless something extreme happened. I recently had a temp gig at a very large company (new environment to me) that routed all IT Help requests through a ticketing system. Which was fine, I get wanting to track it all, but every single one — from “help change my password” to “I need you to set up a complex workaround for my issue” — generated a survey once it was closed. I was never clear on whether I was actually expected to both rate & comment on every single IT interaction I had, and after awhile it seemed ridiculous, but I’d hate to think the ones I ignored/did not comment on somehow impacted anyone’s income.

    3. All Hail Queen Sally*

      Ugh! I have a friend who works at a call center type of place that rates employees the exact same way. She has callers actually tell her “you’ve been very nice but I still hate your company.” She hates it there but is in her 60’s so has not has much luck looking around for another job. Best of luck to you!

    4. bunniferous*

      Well, from their standpoint they are saving money on bonuses….(yeah, I tend to be a bit cynical sometimes.)

  164. employee retiring*

    I know that 2 weeks notice is standard when changing jobs but an employee gave me 2 weeks notice for his retirement. I had no idea he was thinking about retirement. If you’ve had someone leave recently, what are the things that you asked of them or wish you had asked of them before they left? No one’s left my department in a really long time. This person has asked for no get together (even in their smaller unit) but we’ve worked together for over 20 years and that feels sad. I don’t want to go against their wishes but I feel a need to mark this change, no? Or is it just my own selfish need? I will get a card.

    1. CatCat*

      I think getting a card is the right call here since he doesn’t want any sort of group fanfare.

    2. The Man, Becky Lynch*

      A card is reasonable and respects his wishes to not have an event. For things we have cards for, it’s so lowkey. Everyone signs it and then the boss hands it to them. Done and done.

      I have to wonder if he only gave two weeks notice for retirement if something isn’t going on that has forced his hand. Which is why he’s not wanting any celebration, it may not be a happy time in his life =(

    4. buttrue???*

      Some really don’t want a ‘celebration’. I left a job without one. It was easy as it was not a work ‘perk’. A friend/coworker would arrange it and the one most likely to do this for me understand it was not my thing and really hers either. My husband also left without the usual lunch and gifts. But when the next employee left he went to their lunch and so they got him his parting gift too.

  165. Llama Face!*

    Feeling frustrated today and just need to vent.
    I’m working on training a new employee and having to be pushy to get any assistance from my coworkers (who regularly volunteer me to do training partly because they don’t like doing it). I can’t complete all my usual work when I’m training and not only are they not voluntarily offering to pick up some of that work- which they cannot be unaware of- but they are ignoring/being really obtuse when I tell them I could use some help. Gaah! I had to get a lot more blunt than we usually do in my work culture and then they acted like I hadn’t been clear on what I wanted them to do (I really was clear more than once).
    I feel like I shouldn’t have to nag about this. Sigh.

    1. irene adler*

      You shouldn’t have to nag.
      But, in the absence of folks stepping up, hand out the things that need doing. “Here, take this llama counting task. It needs to be completed by Fri 5 pm. I’m training someone and cannot complete it. Thank you!”
      Then move on. Don’t even wait for them to object/respond.

      1. WellRed*

        Yes, Don’t ask, tell. And feel free to push back on them volunteering you. “Oh, I’ve done it the last few times and habe Huge Project in my plate right now. Hiw about Dudley DoLittle?”

    2. Llama Face!*

      Thanks irene adler & WellRed. I do plan to mention to my supervisor that I’d like someone else to do the next training (another anticipated one should be coming up by fall or earlier). When I spoke with my coworker, they did end up doing some of the work I needed help on… but then made remarks about all the “extra” they did that day. That’s the attitude I have so much frustration with! It’s like they think they’re just doing me a favour (and now I owe them) instead of them balancing out the workload so I’m not the only one with more work on my plate while everyone else can slack off because they have finished “their” jobs.
      I know I sound like a kid complaining about fairness but it drags on me, especially since I will always volunteer to help when they need it. Our workplace likes to really emphasize teamwork and cooperation so it isn’t just my bugbear.

  166. Hazy Days*

    Supporting a young woman of colour without family resources, who’s trying to break into a famously difficult industry – what can I or should I do? She wants to work in an industry notorious for low paid and unpaid internships in high CoL cities – I want to support her ambition, and hate the thought of reinforcing barriers, but I also want her to have security.
    So far I’ve spoken to friends who formerly worked in the industry, one of whom has given advice by mail and one who has a face to face meeting. I’ve agreed to act as reference, have sent her a job links when I see them, and have said I’ll offer a couple of days’ unpaid mini-internship that would result in a tangible outcome if this would help (unpaid in the first instance as I don’t really need to outsource this, and it will take up my time). My connection is that I work for an organisation that has supported her, and that she’s been on the Youth Council for.
    Are there more useful things I could be doing? Things I shouldn’t be doing? Advice from people at the start of their careers gratefully received!

    1. AnonToday*

      I think the best thing you can do is make sure she understands exactly what she is getting herself into. All too often, young people are naive about the realities of the sorts of abuses that can take place in certain industries. I spent some time in the world of theater and OMG, the mistreatment of interns was remarkable. I was super lucky that I had mentors who looked out for me, but I saw a lot of people taken advantage of.

  167. Anon as anon can be*

    Dear all

    Laaaate to the party, but worth a try.

    Can any give me tips or resources on better emotional self regulation? I have a long standing issue with behaving, on occasion … not great when I am under serious stress (I mean illness, bereavement, auto accidents, not just the TPE report is late).

    I recognise this is not appropriate. I am fortunate to work with understanding people who generally like me (and I like them). But I can see that even the occasional meltdown is not only unfair to my coworkers but professionally limiting for me. I have a therapist and am working on underlying issues, but can anyone recommend something that will help short term?

    TIA.

    1. AudreyParker*

      This is something I’ve struggled with as well, partly due to feeling (probably overly) responsible for All The Things and being easily overwhelmed. Not a panacea, but at one point my coworker said “you just have to Star-Sixty-Nine that crap” and we put up a post-it that just read “*69” on the wall in my line of sight. It at least made me smile when I was freaking out.

      (I realize this is possibly a generational thing, so will elaborate to say Back In The Day of only landline phones with no CallerID, you could hit *69 to dial back the last person who called you. So “star sixty-nine” was meant to be code for “dial it back.”)

    2. Bunny Girl*

      This might be helpful for you or not, but if you’re able I’d say take a day to yourself after these things happen. That might seem obvious, but it honestly can really help. There’s no reason to rush back to your office after an illness or an accident or something more serious, especially since you know how you get stressed and react. It’s really great that you are going to a therapist and working on it. But honestly yeah, I tend to get stressed out and I swear the most healthy thing for me if just knowing when you can’t get up and go in to work and function. Really assess how you’re feeling during a time when something is really stressing you out and ask “Am I able to go into work and conduct myself today how I want?” If not, maybe take a sick day. Mental health is part of your wellness too.

    3. Kiki*

      I think the first step is working to recognize when you’re about to reach a breaking point so you can remove yourself from a situation before you adversely impact coworkers. If you’re able to work from home when life is in the blender, that’s best, but even a little removal can do wonders. Taking a break to take a walk does wonders for me, but even taking a bathroom break and doing some deep breathing in the stall makes things significantly better. Good luck!

    4. Happy Lurker*

      I have the same issues and feel that Bunny and Parker have great advice.
      Personally, to thwart the emotional outburst I bite my cheek in between my teeth or stab my nails into my palm. Not good advice, but it keeps me from totally melting down in the moment and think twice before speaking.

    5. Utoh!*

      Help how? What is it that you do when you don’t behave great? Can you take a walk until you have calmed down so you can interact in a more rational way, or take some time off if you are feeling particularly overwhelmed? From experience I know how difficult it can be to have to manage the emotions of a coworker, especially if they aren’t actively doing anything to change the situation (which it sounds like you are, so that’s a great step!).

    6. animaniactoo*

      A few suggestions if you can pull them off, particularly if you don’t have the option to just not go to work for whatever reason:

      1) In the moment, just stop. Take a breath. “Give me a moment. I’ve got a bunch of stuff going on at home and I’m bleeding stress and I just need a moment to get it together.” If they offer to talk later/let you go home, etc., take them up on that. “Thanks, I really don’t want to bleed stress all over you (guys), you haven’t done anything to deserve that”.

      2) If you can excuse yourself to the bathroom before you get to that point, take a moment to get yourself calmed down some. Damping a cloth with cold/cool water and wiping it over your face and wrists can help – partly, it just feels nice, and partly it’s a thing of physical regulation where the cooler thing will help distract you from the heated thoughts and how they physically heat up your face, etc.

      3) Self-care. Plan specific breaks for yourself throughout the day, grab a drink or a snack or stop to smell a flower or whatever you can do within the office that won’t take long and won’t be a big deal. I mean, you can bring an aromatherapy or something else that smells nice and just take a whiff now and then if it will help give you a positive feeling. Put up a picture that gives you warm fuzzies – one that makes you smile if it feels appropriate, but definitely one that feels comforting to you in some way. If you can’t put it up, put it in your desk drawer to pull out at will or have it on your computer able to click on. Plan to do the cool damp thing a couple of times throughout the day, and make sure you’re keeping yourself well hydrated. Dehydration – even mild dehydration – when you’re stressed out can seriously magnify how stressed out you feel.

    7. No Tribble At All*

      First of all, good for you for taking the steps to work on this! Two things that have helped me are (a) hiding and (b) playing What Would X Do?

      By hiding, I mean disengaging for a few minutes by hiding in the bathroom and crying. Let it out in a stealthier way. By What Would X Do I mean channeling your favorite high-pressure hero, say Captain Janeway. Find some favorite quotes, and tell yourself those over and over when you start to get overwhelmed. Sometimes having a mantra to focus on can distract me from spiraling. Hope that helps!

    8. Torrance*

      This may be overstepping but have you and your therapist ever discussed dialectical behaviour therapy (DBT)? One of its core modules is emotion regulation and I’ve found it super super helpful. There are a lot of online resources that could guide you through it on your own; I can’t include a link but if you google ‘dialectical behaviour therapy emotional regulation’, one of the top links should be a site that offers worksheets and strategies to get you started.

    9. NACSACJACK*

      All of the above and one more that I just did. Anger Management classes. Out of that, I’ve learned that our outbursts come from learned behavior in our childhood. Also, a couple of ways of reducing outbursts: #1)exercise. exercise every day if you can, every other day if you cant, but exercise naturally lowers your stress level for 24 hours #2) sleep – get plenty of sleep, put down the phone/tablet, turn off the lights and tv and call it a night and #3) walk away if you have to – tell them i need a break, put the phone on mute, go to the bathroom, whatever, just step away.

    10. Cows go moo*

      I’m working with someone who has the same issue. I like(d) her on a personal level, when she’s in a good mood she’s great, but she behaves atrociously when she’s under stress. I understand why she behaves like that but that doens’t make her behaviour any more acceptable or pleasant.

      If you recognise you’re not feeling great, make a conscious effort to minimise your words/interactions with other people. It’s completely fine to say, “I’m feeling frustrated with some personal issues so I feel like I’m not in the right mindset to process problem X today. Can we talk about this later after I’ve had some time to mull over it?” If your coworkers/boss are reasonable people they’re likely to be understanding and give you time. It’s certainly much better than snapping at people at work then feeling guilty about it later on.

      Also, much respect to you for recognising your own limitations with emotional regulation and taking steps to address this problem.

  168. VT*

    Does your employer allow you to freely use vacation time for sick leave if you run out of sick leave?
    I work for an office where you accrue sick leave and vacation time at predetermined rates. A couple of my coworkers have been out sick a lot this year, both for themselves and for their kids. It happens but it makes it tough to suddenly have to shift job duties because they have called out. The problem is with these one-off days, they have had to dip into vacation time because they don’t have enough sick leave. They think that leave is leave, as long as they use sick leave for being sick, they can use vacation for the same purpose. Our boss thinks that sick leave is for sudden absenses while vacation is more for planned absences. Our boss wants these coworkers to switch to the leave schedule where you accure a few extra days sick leave in a year but you get fewer vacation days in exchange, just so that they have enough of the right leave to cover themselves. But I was wondering what other places did.

    1. Close Bracket*

      I have always had PTO–paid time off. You use it for what you use it for. Going on vacation? Charge a couple days of PTO. Call in sick? Charge PTO. Take a couple hours in the morning to go to the dentist? Charge PTO.

    2. The Cosmic Avenger*

      We have one bank of leave now for both, and the fact that some companies do that undermines your boss’ complaint. But even when we did have separate leave banks, while the use of sick leave was not monitored, it was generally supposed to be for a specific use (i.e., health and wellness), whereas vacation was supposed to be for personal reasons, and the definition of that was up to the employee. So our take on it was that sick leave was slightly less flexible than vacation, although we were pretty flexible on both. And I’ve used both on a day’s notice, but I generally try hard not to do so. But life happens, appliances or pipes break, and sometimes you need to stay home with zero notice and you’re not sick.

      tl;rd version, your boss is being unreasonable.

    3. CM*

      Why does your boss care? I don’t get this. Does your boss want people to come in when they’re sick?

      If it were the other way around and people were using sick leave for vacation, I could see that being an issue, because vacation typically needs to be paid out when you quit. But using vacation for sick leave benefits the company.

      We have separate buckets. The general rule is that you can use vacation for whatever you want, but sick leave is only for health issues and doctor visits.

    4. CatCat*

      Sick leave is for when you (or a dependent you need to care for) are sick. Vacation is for whatever. I’m with you on this. Also puzzling over why your boss cares.

    5. Tina Belcher's Less Cool Sister*

      We have separate buckets for sick (all employees accrue at the same rate) and vacation (different accrual rates depending on status and seniority). However, there’s an option in the payroll system for “vacation charged as sick” for exactly the situation you describe. It’s ridiculous that your boss is looking to solve a problem that doesn’t exist – no need to convert vacation days to sick days for everyone, just let people use their PTO days for cripes sake!

    6. Me*

      I work for an employer that has two buckets.

      The thinking is that yes, things happen and you can use vacation time to cover sick time. In fact if you are out for an extended illness or injury (think months), you are expected to exhaust all of your leave, of all types, prior to being eligible for the leave donation program.

      That said we also have rules about leave abuse. Basically they allow you to use it if you need to – after all your just hurting yourself by not being able to take vacation days – but if they suspect you of abusing it you will lose the privlege.

    7. Jenniepoo*

      We have very generous vacation time (4-6 weeks depending on length of service) and also 12 days of sick leave a year

      You can use your vacation when you run out of sick leave, for illness. The reverse is true with some managers. People will use their 6 weeks of vacation and then use their sick leave for extra vacation. Some managers allow it and some don’t.

    8. animaniactoo*

      You run out of sick leave, you use vacation – or that’s what we did until we just had it all grouped under “PTO”.

      Here’s the thing from employee’s perspective: If they divvy it up differently in the beginning, do they get to dip into the sick leave bucket for vacation days if they have extra sick days left when they’re ready for vacation?

      If not, then he’s asking them to *purposely* short themselves on vacation time with no guarantee that they will actually use all of the sick time as sick time.

      How would this usefully address the office needing to shift duties around when they call out sick? Would it actually change any of the impact on the office?

      Assuming that the logical answer to these questions is No. It wouldn’t. and No. – He is going to have to find another way to deal with his expectations of pre-planned and unplanned absences, even if that’s only in his head. He can mentally assign those employees to be out more often.

      However, the other question is – is it just this year? If so, he’s making a major mountain out of molehill and that should be pointed out to him as a next level kind of thing.

      1. VT*

        It’s more than one of my coworkers, though the circumstances are similar with health issues and little kids for all of them. It isn’t just this year though who knows what the future holds.

        I think my boss is worried about having to deny vacations or go down the road of LWOP and disciplinary action because our director thinks sick is for sick leave and vacation is for planned absences. They don’t want the director involved in this matter and my boss must think that more sick leave is the way to keep this under the radar.

        Really, it comes down to the fact that we have two different schedules that you can choose from for sick leave accrual and why we would have extra sick leave days at all if we can use vacation for any reason and on short notice.

    9. LCL*

      Not freely. I will do it for employees if they run out of sick leave. Because of our shift work our small work group frowns on last minute vacation requests, they aren’t supposed to be routine. I have reminded people that the company never interferes with sick leave.

      I think your boss could make this issue go a little smoother if he decides that sick leave is for sick time, and if someone calls in sick or family sick it is charged to sick time, unless the person is out of sick leave. Once they have to start spending down their vacation, it’s just what happens.

  169. Boop*

    I hope I’m not too late and can still get some answers! I just got the syllabus for one of my fall grad school classes. It mentions the use of a program, and that it is only compatible with Windows. My personal computer is a mac. My work computer, however, has Windows. How odd would it be if I asked my boss if it’d be okay to ask IT to install this program on my work computer? I am going to grad school for something related to my career…I’m just really hoping I don’t have to shell out money on a new laptop.

    1. Close Bracket*

      Can you address it first with the instructor?

      Companies vary so wildly on policies regarding software installation that I don’t know what to tell you about installing it on your work computer. If it wasn’t already something my company and program had approved for use, it would be a hard no for me, and that’s true for everyplace I’ve ever worked. Is there a computer usage policy you can read before making the request?

      1. Boop*

        In the syllabus she said there may be a program that you can install on a mac to make it run Windows, but thats all. Otherwise she said she couldn’t help with tech issues. I was thinking of asking someone in IT if they knew of some kind of program (we have macs & PCs at work).

        I’m thinking the same thing. My company is pretty lax so there’s a chance that they would let me do it, but I think “officially” in the handbook it’s not allowed.

        1. KR*

          I bet your school has an IT dept dedicated to helping students. They might be able to help you.

    2. Psyche*

      That would not fly where I work. I would talk to the professor and ask if there is an alternative available for Mac users. Otherwise, you should see if they can install it on a computer in the school library. I have had luck with asking the library to install a program for a class.

      1. Red Reader the Adulting Fairy*

        Same. I ended up dropping $200 on a refurbished Thinkpad off Amazon for Windows-only software requirements, just because it was inconvenient for me to have to deal only with the library computers, but I know Mac-using classmates who just used the library computers. And even if I had wanted to ask about installing it on my work computer, our IT policy is a hard no.

        1. Boop*

          Yea, I’m thinking of going the refurbished laptop route. It would also be really inconvenient for me to only use library computers. I figured I’d be told that it’s probably not possible but thought I’d ask haha. I imagine my boss would say it’s fine but IT would say no.

          1. Red Reader the Adulting Fairy*

            I also use it for anything that requires a remote proctor or otherwise has someone else accessing the computer, because I put absolutely nothing personal on that laptop, don’t access my email or banking or anything else from it – literally just school related stuff. Which means it’s also a spare I can hand to someone else if they are visiting and need a computer for something right quick. It’s ended up being a reasonable enough investment, so if you can swing a cheapie, that’s my vote. And the Thinkpads (I think mine is a … T410?) are pretty solid little machines for basic use. Assuming your Windows only program isn’t some sort of high end graphic or movie editing software, at least. :) mine was some variety of statistics package, I think? I forget, it’s been a few years.

      2. Boop*

        She did say there may be a program Mac users can download to run Windows, but that sounds like something I don’t really want to do. Otherwise, it was basically a “figure it out” vibe.

        1. Red Reader the Adulting Fairy*

          There are emulators, but I believe most of them -a- are kinda spendy in their own right and -b- require you to buy a copy of windows to install. (And if you have a copy of Windows to install already, any fairly recent Macs can dual boot into Windows without any special software, you just have to set it up.)

      3. Person from the Resume*

        This!

        I think it’s pretty crappy that the school is taking a tough luck if you have a Mac attitude for required software. OTOH “use computers in a school computer lab” is a somewhat acceptable answer.

        Do school computer labs still exist? I graduated with my non-online degree over 20 years ago.

    3. AnonToday*

      Talk to your schools IT folks. They should be able to help you figure this out. There is a program you can run on Macs to load Windows products. I used it myself in grad school for Windows only programs. There’s several ways to do it from partitioning your hard-drive to running a emulator, but the best people to ask would be your campus folks..

    4. Middle School Teacher*

      Have you googled “Mac equivalent of X program?” There might be a workaround for this. Surely you’re not the first student in this situation.

      1. Boop*

        There is not an equivalent, unfortunately. The only thing that comes up when I try to google such a thing is a strongly worded note about how it is NOT COMPATIBLE WITH MACS! I found a program that I could use for $80, but I’m wondering if it’d be worth it to just spend $120 more for a new cheap laptop (dell is having a sale and I could get their cheapest model for just under $200). It’s unclear if the program would require me to buy Windows on top of that $80, in which case it’d be worth it to me to just buy another laptop.

    5. Rainy days*

      I have a PC and when I used to need to use a Mac, I used a service where you can basically log onto a Mac remotely. It cost about $1/hour. I bet there is a similar service for Windows.

      However, before you do this, definitely talk to the professor. It’s really her responsibility in this case to help you find a workaround.

    6. Seven hobbits are highly effective, people*

      If the grad program is explicitly work related, you may have some luck asking to have the program on your work computer. I know that whenever I’ve taken a grad class that is work-related enough to be covered by tuition reimbursement at work, it’s been fine with IT to also have the needed programs installed on my work computer and for me to be doing school work on it. I’ve never asked to have anything installed for something not directly work-related that they were also paying for, though.

      1. Boop*

        My work doesn’t do tuition reimbursement but the class is directly related to what my boss does and is something that he has been wanting to get me into. It’s not something that is easy for him to just teach me, it’s pretty involved (financial modeling) especially because I don’t have a background in it.

        1. Seven hobbits are highly effective, people*

          I’d say there’s no harm in asking in that sort of situation. They might say no, but you can make a business case for why you need to take the class so it might be ok for you to use company resources to do so. This is particularly likely if the specific program you need for the class is also the one your company uses for financial modeling and it’s a task that’ll be added to your plate once you complete the class, if that means it’s something that would be installed on your work computer soon anyway.

    7. LGC*

      I’d say that you should first try to get Windows dual installed on your Mac! (It’s possible to do, and sidesteps any work issues.) I’m not sure how much it’d cost off-hand if anything, since you’re a student.

      Aside from that, it’s worth a shot, I think? Just be prepared for a no.

      1. Boop*

        I’d need Windows itself which is almost as much as a cheap laptop. Plus my Mac doesn’t have a ton of storage, I don’t know how well it would handle installing Windows as well.

    8. WellRed*

      As a mac user I’d never ask an IT department that doesn’t do Mac to install software. We’re currently having issues with our new Windows based parent company setting up firewalls and stuff for our Mac system. And that’s with our in-house Mac pros onsite doing the work.

      1. Boop*

        My office is primarily PC and my work laptop (which is what I’d want to use for the course) is PC. Really all they have to do to install it is enter credentials when I click download in order to actually access the installation software. Otherwise it’s just like downloading any other program on a personal computer.

    9. Haru*

      If it helps, I thought Codeweavers was very easy to use. You can search on their website to see if the PC program will work and you can try it for 2 weeks for free.

  170. Bunny Girl*

    I swear the next time I get a job, a secure office is going to on my must-haves. The security in our building is atrocious. We don’t have any! I’ve never worked in an office with so many people who just wander in and around the building. Not only that, but they feel totally okay just wandering into people’s offices and interrupting them! I feel like I work in a zoo, and I’m one of the exhibits. Just yesterday, someone came into my office and I asked him if I could help him. He started telling me he used to go to school here back in the 60’s and was just touring the building. Okay? He stood there for 15 minutes just talking to me while I blankly stared. This happens ALL. THE. TIME. None of us have a public facing office, and I work up on the 3rd floor of the building! We’ve had homeless people wander in and steal stuff from our kitchen, we have to lock our purses up and carry the key around wherever we go because we’ve had an issue with random people coming in off the streets and rifling through people’s stuff. Why is this okay? Is anyone else’s office building like this?

    2. Utoh!*

      So this office used to be a school, or is it still a school? Regardless, it’s absolutely ridiculous there is no security there. Can you get other employees together to discuss this with a manager or other higher up? You should do this TODAY.

    3. fposte*

      You mention “school”–if by chance you’re at a state university, there may be public access requirements that prevent building-door-level security. That doesn’t mean people get to go into private offices, but they are allowed entry into the building during normal business hours. (Even if you’re at a private university, there may be policy about open building access.)

      1. Bunny Girl*

        Oh I didn’t know that. That’s so dumb! Especially with all the issues recently. I think our building is just set up really poorly. I know the community college actually has their offices behind closed and key-coded doors. Ours just any person off the street can just wander into people’s private offices. And they do.

      2. WellRed*

        Fposte, anyone else and I’d be questioning this comment. But I am curious of the difference btwn high school and a university and open access. Is it simply because it’s The Children?

  171. Cover Letter Inspiration?*

    I’m working on cover letters today. Interested to hear from anyone involved in hiring processes, and anyone else with positive cover letter stories. Allison gives some great advice on this site. But in addition to that, in your own experiences, what works? What makes a cover letter stand out?

    And what are some good ways to get inspired and feel good about writing them? I love to write, but I find cover letters to be especially challenging.

    Thank you all and Happy Friday!

    1. AnonToday*

      Be humble. Avoid sentences like, “I am the best person for the job because of X”, include things you wouldn’t put on your resume, but might want to mention, try to relax and just do you best. Oh, and be sure to say what job your applying for. I hate it when I get a cover letter and it never says the name of the job or the organization, because I immediately assume they are just bulk sending them out.

    2. AccountantWendy*

      “Show, don’t tell.” In cover letters, this often comes up as “unsubstantiated opinions.” Don’t state your own opinion of your skills; the hiring manager has no reason to believe you.

      Example from my own resume (I’m an accountant)
      “I have excellent writing skills.” OK, well, how does the hiring manager know that? That’s just your opinion.
      “I understand that this position requires excellent writing skills. While working at X company, I was responsible for writing all customer communications related to our mergers and acquisitions.” I have provided a concrete example that my writing skills were recognized by an employer and used to accomplish something, rather than an opinion that I’m an excellent writer.

      I think it’s fine to include a sentence or two that highlights what you do think are you best qualities in general terms (such as “I really value positions where I can use my skills in X, Y, and Z”), but the bulk of your cover letter should be concrete examples of things you have done at old jobs that demonstrate why you would be good at the job you’re applying for. So re-read your letter and look for any point where you make a claim about yourself or your skills that isn’t back up by an example.

  172. Alex the Alchemist*

    How do I learn to be more assertive in asking questions/giving ideas in meetings? I realized in my job, people have a tendency to just jump in or even talk over each other in meetings (not in a rude way, just how the conversation flows). While I’m assertive in other areas of my life, I’m used to it being considered “rude” to just jump in without raising your hand or giving indication you’d like to speak. Anyone have any advice on learning how to adapt?

    1. Ella P.*

      I wish I knew. I’m curious about the answers as we have quite a few meeting bullies who don’t let you get a word in here. I am already a junior person but instead of them looking rude I tend to look demure, trying to find a way to say something. And the last thing I am is demure!

      Once someone saw my struggle and called on me and I offered a good but simple solution. They all ignored me! I’ll be checking back to see the replies here :)

    2. Not Me*

      I think you just have to dive in. “I have an idea…” or “Does this sound like a good option…” or whatever else it is you want to say, just speak up and say it. If that is how the meeting conversations flow then it’s not rude for you to do so as well. It’s definitely one of those “the more you do it the easier it is” kind of things.

    3. RandomU...*

      Yeah, there’s no secret to this unfortunately. Sounds like your work culture is one where you’re just going to have to jump in with both feet. Maybe start simple to get used to it and jump in with questions.

      Fergus: So the plans for the project have hit a few roadblocks such as..
      Wakeen: Oh yeah I heard that the Johnson Data had to be redone, how are you figuring that into the sched-
      Sansa: Well it didn’t all need to be redone, just parts D and C, because of the missing datase-
      Fergus: Yep, we’ve already figured out a way to get D pretty easy… but C is going to be a pain
      Alex: Ooop (I actually do use this sound, it’s a way to signal I’m coming in)… sorry, can we go back to D really quick. I was under the impression… blah blah blah

      Sometimes I don’t feel bad if I have to bring a meeting/discussion to an earlier point if I couldn’t jump in. I figure I’m being paid to participate so it’s my job to be heard or ask question.

  173. Nini*

    I had an phone interview last Friday followed by an in person interview on Wednesday that went so well the manager said on Wednesday he didn’t have any more questions, he “goes with his gut” and feels good about this and everyone has said great things and he’s ready to move forward (this was all at the interview on Wednesday.) He said they’d be in touch on Thursday. On Thursday I got an email from the talent acquisition telling me everyone was really positive and asking what I thought, saying that the manager wants to move to “next steps” and that he (talent acquisition) has reached out to HR for guidance on next steps. I emailed back about how excited I was and asking what those next steps would be.

    All of that was great, but today I saw the job posted on linked in with a time stamp of “1 day ago” and it’s freaking me out. I really want this job. Should I email again to follow up? I haven’t heard anything since my reply, and I can’t imagine what would have happened to change their minds in the past day.

    1. Jen*

      No, don’t follow up now. It’s only been a day!

      The advert might have been scheduled much earlier, or be an auto-renew, or who knows! It doesn’t mean anything. They’ve told you they’re interested, believe them and proceed as if this ad didn’t exist.

    2. Half April Ludgate, Half Leslie Knope*

      I think LinkedIn has some sort of “auto renew” feature that cycles every two weeks. I applied for a job with my company’s national branch, and interviewed and didn’t hear anything for the next month (which sucked). The job keeps reposting, and I found out on a team call that they’ve frozen the hiring because the hiring manager just quit. So clearly, they weren’t looking for new candidates 2 days ago, when I saw the position re-post. Don’t get too worried about it.

      1. Nini*

        Thanks for talking me off the ledge folks! I know rationally I haven’t heard anything negative so shouldn’t assume, but it’s been a really tough job hunt! When should I follow-up? Monday? Or wait for them at this point?

        1. GreyNerdShark*

          Wait for them. They won’t have forgotten you. Their processes will take time… my employer has been known to take 4 weeks.

          Give a minimum of 10 working days before followup. and the followup is just “are you able to give me any idea if timing if you are going forward with this?”

  174. the cake is a pie*

    So, how bad is it to be up against not one but two internal candidates (as an external candidate)? I’m interviewing for a job where I know some of the folks on the team and know they put in a good word for me. But I’ve also learned there are at least two internal candidates in the running. I’m still going to give it my all, but . . . this does feel like the deck is stacked against me.

    1. Burner*

      Bad enough that I wouldn’t really expect to get the job, but not so bad that it’s not impossible. It sucks, but internal candidates have a LOT of advantages.

    2. Me*

      Depends. My employer – if we advertise a job externally its often because we are actively open to what is out there. We advertise internal otherwise.

      Just hired an external over two internal candidates. Another position not too long ago, not only did we not fill it with any of the internal candidates who applied – (wanted an external we couldn’t get for the salary), we didn’t choice the next highest racked because they were not good. We re-advertised it.

      It’s really no different than any other job , although I can see where it feels that way sometimes. If a place is bothering to search outside it’s because they are open to outside candidates. It will all come down to strengths and fit. Having inside knowledge is not a direct shoe-in.

    3. Ella P.*

      You never know, sometimes companies are looking for people who are bringing in new skills, perspectives and experiences. Something they don’t already have in their current staff. I would just focus on doing my best, like you said and leave it at that.

      My company has actually been favoring external candidates too much lately… so it’s not a given that the internal always gets the role, and you have people putting in a good word which is a great advantage. An internal candidate may be a known person and maybe what they know doesn’t measure up!

      Good luck!

    4. Middle School Teacher*

      I know several teachers who were hired after an internal sub thought they were a shoo-in. Different industry I know, but it does happen.

    5. AnonToday*

      You just never know. My current employer never seems to hire internal. My previous employer always did. So, who knows?

    6. Middle Manager*

      At least some jobs I’ve had wouldn’t bother to advertise to external candidates if they knew for sure they were going to do an internal promotion. I’d guess that you have a real shot at it.

    7. the cake is a pie*

      Not sure if anyone checks updates here but thought I’d pass mine along: the interview felt like it went extremely well but ultimately they went with one of the internal applicants.

      I really appreciated everyone’s feedback here, from all directions. It helped me take a deep breath and just focus on presenting my absolute best self, which is all I could do. Thanks for being a great community.

  175. Entry Level Marcus*

    So I applied to my dream job a few weeks ago, and I can’t stop obsessing about it! I’m checking my email almost hourly, and I keep daydreaming about how great the position would be if I got it.

    I know, I know, I can’t actually know if it’s a “dream job” for sure going into it, but this position really is a once-in-every-few-years opportunity for me. I’m simply not qualified for the vast majority of entry-level jobs in this field, but the job ad explicitly encouraged people with non-traditional backgrounds to apply and I think I’m a good fit for the role. Also, it’s for a company I admire and I would likely be paid significantly more than I am in my current position.

    I know I need to stop thinking about it. I’m getting my hopes up even though odds are I won’t even get to the phone screen stage given how competitive the field is. I wish I could just seal away all thoughts of this position until/unless I hear back from the company.

    1. Entry Level Marcus*

      And less than two hours after I type this I get a form rejection letter from the job. Ha ha, the ironies of life.

      I’m actually relieved to know the answer for sure (and good on the company for sending out prompt rejection letters).

  176. pregnancy*

    I have a part time staff member who seems to be visibly pregnant. We don’t work closely and our office area is very cold so we’re all wearing layers anyway so I had not noticed anything but the other day we passed in the hallway and I am pretty sure she is pregnant. She has not raised the issue with me and in general I don’t like raising personal issues that are not affecting the work, but presumably she will take some time off, even if it’s minimal? That, I would like to know. Any suggestions?

    1. CAF*

      When she’s ready to tell you her plans, she will. Do not ask about it until she brings it up, and until then pretend you haven’t noticed anything. Make sure you do not treat her at all differently than you would if you did not suspect pregnancy.

    2. Overeducated*

      I don’t know of a widely accepted standard for how far in advance you have to tell your boss…yes obviously before delivering and disappearing, but some people show even before they’ve gotten far enough along with growth, tests, etc. to know the pregnancy is highly likely to end in a live birth. So I’m not really sure if there’s a way to ask, especially if she’s still in the plausible deniability stage – I guess I’d turn it around and say “how far in advance do you truly need to know for the sake of work?”

    3. Close Bracket*

      Any one of your staff could be planning to take time off in 4-6 months that they haven’t told you about. Treat her the same way you treat everyone else–which means don’t go asking her what her time off plans in 4-6 months are unless you plan to ask everybody else as well.

    4. Me*

      You 100% cannot ask. Just can’t.

      Let’s say she is pregnant and would be out. Trust that she will tell you when she feels it’s appropriate. And if she doesn’t until the baby is falling out? Well, so? Anyone of us can be taken suddenly ill or injured or have something otherwise unfortunate befall us that requires us to be out.

      And also – I can appear in the early stages of pregnancy due to where I gain wait, especially dependent on what I’m wearing. Asking me would not go over well.

      Again, just don’t. It’s super in the not your business realm.

    5. I hate coming up with usernames*

      You absolutely cannot ask. I’m going through a tough illness that has caused me to gain weight, and unfortunately quite a bit of it is in my midsection. I felt pretty gutted last week at work when someone asked me the pregnancy question. DO NOT BE THAT PERSON.

  177. Ella P.*

    Old coworker sending gossip texts

    I’ve been keeping in touch with a coworker who left the company last year. I had hoped we’d be able to be friends beyond the job but we built that friendship venting to each other and continued doing that since. She is actually suing the company, her husband and some close friends still work there so she often hears about what is going on before I do. I was trying to be supportive of her situation, which was unfair but this whole relationship is becoming very draining to me now.

    This is the issue – I have to stay for now, at this job. I’m trying to be more positive, to make it more bearable while I’m there. Trying to focus on the positive and such. We tend to text a lot and I’ve told her that I really don’t want to talk about the job as much any more, in a very nice way. She agreed it was better to move on from the negativity.

    But not only has she not stopped texting about the job, what she hears and such, she’s started sharing very personal gossip about my coworkers. Stuff I am never happy to hear and don’t want to know (like one coworker threw her husband out). I don’t know if this is a reaction to me saying I don’t want to talk about the job cause we really talked mostly about work related things in the past. Or if this is her holding on to the place, she worked there for over 20 years but I am so uncomfortable with her telling me this information.

    I need her to stop. I’m disgusted by some of the things she has told me lately, I don’t want to know people’s personal issues and I certainly don’t want to make fun of them (her tone seems a bit mean spirited, like she’s happy they are suffering). I guess my only option is to just not reply and pull back completely?

    1. fposte*

      Yes, I think so. You can also block her so you don’t see the texts in future. I could see sending her an “I’m sorry, but I can’t keep texting with you” note pre-block if you were feeling it, but either way I agree that it needs to stop.

    2. Psyche*

      If you really wanted to try to save the friendship, you could try responding to the things you don’t want to hear by saying things like “I wish you hadn’t told me that,” “I really don’t want to know that,” or “This is the type of thing I asked you not to tell me.” But that is only if she otherwise is being a good friend. It doesn’t really sound like there is much there other than gossip and complaining so I would just back away.

      1. Ella P.*

        Thanks, I may try that. I’m honestly not sure what else is there as far as friendship goes… the straight gossip lately has made me feel that maybe I don’t know her that well after all. I get she is very angry but I’m starting to think she isn’t someone that can be trusted.

    3. Glomarization, Esq.*

      > She is actually suing the company

      The more you communicate with her, the more likely it is that your communications will end up part of the case. There’s a slim chance you could even be deposed. I would really pull back on answering her texts. The rule I keep in mind for myself is “don’t put anything in an text (or e-mail) that you wouldn’t want read back to you in court.”

      1. Ella P.*

        Thanks. Yes I don’t put anything sensitive in writing in general and when it comes to her specific situation, I’m not a lawyer so I’m good to tell her to check with her team and leave anything else for actually talking on the phone.

        Thanks for reminder though, her situation is dragging on and I honestly feel for her but don’t want to be pulled in in any way.

  178. Ada*

    I don’t typically travel for work, so can someone tell me if this is normal? I put in 12 hours yesterday, including travel time (5 hours on the road plus 7 hours working on site). Drove back today, so that’s another 5 hours on the road again this morning. Now I guess I’m expected to work the last couple hours of the day either from home or in the office, and not even on my own projects. I’m helping out on my co-worker’s projects. Is that a normal expectation?

    1. KR*

      It’s a reasonable expectation, but also not entirely normal in my experience. I travel quite a bit for my role and in a situation like that it would be one of those, “I have my laptop open and am responding to work issues as they come up but since I drove all day and am burned out I’m not at full efficiency and am taking it easy.”

    3. WellRed*

      Not normal in my experience but if you must, do it from home. Frankly, I’d have said you were taking the rest if the day and would start fresh on Monday.

    4. Earthwalker*

      Normal where I’ve been. In general my employers have preferred that I spend personal, not company hours, on travel, leaving 8 hours a day for work. Some employers are kinder to tired travelers, but I wouldn’t be surprised at being asked what you were asked.

  179. RainbowsAndKitties*

    I am just so happy that I want to scream this from the tops of mountains!

    I am a Teapot Integrity Reporter. This is the first type of this job that I’ve held, and I have been here about 2 months. The person who is retiring from my position (Arya) is leaving at the end of this month.

    This week she showed me how to do this HUGE yearly report that is essential for our organization to function. The report is ridiculously labor intensive (usually takes Arya 10 days to complete) and is generally just a pain in the rear-end because of how in-depth it goes with data.

    Well, I just finished it after 4 days!

    On top of that, I used my new excel skills to created a new process to streamline the gathering and analyzing of data throughout the year. AND I identified a flaw in the way that we gather information that makes the report much more difficult to complete. I will go to my supervisor with this and propose possibly changing our forms to make them easier for both us to process, and for our clients to complete.

    I feel amazing. I have been having some hardcore imposter syndrome lately because this is my first job of this type. But now I feel so confident.

    What a great way to start off the weekend!

    1. irene adler*

      Yeah!
      Wish one could bottle and sell that feeling.
      Put all this on your accomplishment list. Pull out the list later on when you encounter a task that becomes difficult.

      1. Silver Radicand*

        Absolutely! This is the exact type of thing you can put on your resume some day when you bullet-point your accomplishments in the position.

    2. Tabby Baltimore*

      Reading “I used my new excel skills to created a new process to streamline the gathering and analyzing of data …” makes me both proud *of * you, and want to *be* you, simultaneously. Well done!

  180. Half April Ludgate, Half Leslie Knope*

    I’m absolutely MISERABLE at work. My field is very narrow (I give grants to non-profits on behalf of my company), and my executive thinks she knows everything about my job, even though she actually knows nothing. She’s rolled back every single project that I was working on, and dismantled all the work I’d done over the past five years to improve our methods, etc. Meanwhile, she’s developing a “new project” but hasn’t set ANY details in stone. She literally changes her mind in every meeting.

    I’m so unhappy, and I’m actively hunting, but I have two concerns.

    1. I want to relocate. I’m currently in a mid-sized city, which I enjoy, but I want to move to a major metro, because that’s where my field’s growth is located, and there are just more opportunities for life in a bigger area (more people to connect with, more activities, etc.) So far, I haven’t gotten much response, and I’m planning to move without a job in September if I still can’t find anything. Am I dooming myself here, or is moving without a job (versus just staying in a job and writing that I’m serious about relocation in a cover letter) that bold decision that managers are looking for?

    2. I’m concerned that I’ve become so demotivated that I won’t be able to pick myself back up and get excited by a new job. I’m so unmotivated to do anything here – most of my work has been paused, but I could probably push and do something innovative if I really tried, but I just feel like there’s no point. Anyone have tips on how to pull yourself up by your bootstraps and get excited again?

    1. Kendra*

      1. I wouldn’t base a decision that big on whether or not a hiring manager will think it’s bold, because it’s entirely possible that they won’t even pay attention to your current living situation. I know when I hire, I pretty much assume that if someone’s applying for the job, they think they can realistically get themselves to work everyday, and that’s all that’s really my business. It’ll only become a factor once we’re setting a start date; someone moving across multiple states will most likely need a little more time than someone who already lives just down the street.

      Do you have a way of supporting yourself once you get there (savings, family, etc.)? To me, that’s a much more important question.

      2. This sounds like you’re a bit burned out; that stinks, and I’m sorry you have to go through it. One of the things that helps me is to pay extra attention to self-care: buy yourself that new book/dress/pair of hiking boots/crochet pattern you’ve been holding off on, and let yourself enjoy it. Go to the concert, spend time with your best friend, eat right and drink plenty of water. And, above all, try to get enough sleep. I can’t stress enough how important that is; you can’t always control it, but do what you can.

    2. AccountantWendy*

      I have moved lots of time without a job. As long as you can pay for housing and ensure that you won’t end up destitute, it definitely can work out. I would contact some temp agencies 2 or 3 weeks out to get in their system so that as soon as you arrive in your new city you can tell them you’re ready for work and you’re already set up in their system (some agencies will make you wait, but some will let you do the initial paperwork long distance).

      As far as motivation: living in a new city without a paycheck and having to pay rent and buy food was all the motivation I needed. I had *very* finite and small savings, so it was get a job or become homeless. Even if your savings are larger, set yourself a deadline in either time or dollars!

    3. Anon-Today*

      Does your boss’s boss know that your boss’s behavior is counterproductive? If the organization’s mission is being torpedoed by this person, someone besides you should know about it.

      Nobody wants to be paid just to take up space, but if you reframe your current situation that way, it will hurt less when your boss interferes.

      1. Half April Ludgate, Half Leslie Knope*

        My boss’s boss is our CEO, and sees her as someone who can do no wrong, unfortunately. I wish there was a way to share the truth with our board, but it’s a bit “Emperor has no clothes” over here right now.

        Thanks for the input on moving without a job, all! This has been super helpful insight!

  181. Cersei Lannister*

    Hello AAM Community! Long-time lurker, first time poster.

    Does anyone have experience in driving adoption of a CRM or other database tool in a small organization? I am the head of Operations for a business unit of a financial services firm, and one of my jobs is to update/improve my unit’s technology, so that we can centralize our record-keeping and capture good data around our sales process. I have identified a great system that I want us to purchase, but I am struggling with how to get my team to actually USE IT.

    We are a small team (less than 10 ppl), and since we are small, everyone just calls/emails/IMs each other when they need to share information. This results in information asymmetry (where not everyone has the most up-to-date info) and sloppy record-keeping. We also have a lot of information that is duplicated on various people’s computers and no one knows whose information is the most accurate. Everyone acknowledges that this is a problem, but no one will change their behaviors to help fix the problem. I’ve installed a task management system, called Asana, as a temporary way to start tracking our workflow and sales process, and get people in the habit of using a centralized database. My boss (the head of our unit) was supportive of implementing the system and the reasons behind it, but neither he nor any of the senior management actually uses it, so we are having the same problems that we had before. Information is still disjointed, and no one will enter their notes into Asana so that the whole team can be working with the same info. When people need info, they will just call me rather than looking on the system where I have shared the information.

    If we go through the process of purchasing and installing the new system, I want to make sure that everyone is using it consistently and that we are collecting robust and accurate data. Everyone understands and supports the rationale, but I don’t trust that anyone will be disciplined about entering their data once the system is in place.

    So, has anyone had a successful experience getting their team to change their behavior in a system like this? If so, can you please let me know what methods did and didn’t work to get people to change their behaviors and start using a new system? Thanks in advance!

    1. GreyNerdShark*

      If senior management aren’t interested then it’s hosed before you start. They have to make it very clear to everyone that the new system is where they will get their info from and it had better be in there. One way to do that is to find out what reports it can give. Graphs! lotsa graphs! Senior management love pictures… If they can see that they can get info on progress and so on they will want people to use it.

      The nuclear option is KPIs. If everyone’s performance review includes “timely and accurate updating of system” it concentrates the mind after the first bad review score.

      (Works on senior management too… my boss copped a bad score because of something I’d been whinging about and suddenly that thing is now super important and I have free rein. Usually auditors are bad news but this time yippee!)

    2. Analytical Tree Hugger*

      Agree with GreyNerdShark. I’m in a similar situation with you (asymmetrical data, files scattered everywhere, etc.). My manager (who is in the senior leadership circle) sees the need for better practices, but doesn’t prioritize it because there are other more pressing issues. The other senior leaders don’t see the need and thus don’t care at all. So the efforts are going nowhere, even though almost everyone acknowledges they are necessary and would provide greater value.

      In my experience, you can’t solve behavioral problems with technology (my organization keeps trying though). Two paths to success:

      1) Senior management become advocates and manage their staff to use the system.
      2) Junior staff/line workers become advocates, at least enough to make it so it’s harder NOT to use the system than it is to do so.

      If neither of these situations become true, then you may need to give up or else risk burning yourself out (like me :D). Good luck!

    3. Lemmy Caution*

      Yeah, there was a whole course module in college I took on ”change resistance” and how to overcome it in projects. As GreyNerdShark says, if the top management isn’t with it, your project is hosed.

      What you will need to show to the management is the consequences. So if you can run a demo… Build two workflows, one with everyone contributing data, and then one with dodgy data that ”looks good” and then show the accounts and how dodgy data will cause banktrupcy and tell them the system in no way is magical, it is only as good as the weakest link in the system.

      Adding the KPI in performance for timely and *accurately* inputting the data as the stick & carrot is a good idea. However you need to make sure each department will understand everything the same way, so you don’t get false stock duplicates etc. So you will need to involve everyone from the start – the planning phase. And forget about the management, send your analyst to discover from the floor what is it they exactly do.

      I do legacy => CRM transitions and usually at least one department has a totally different way of doing things because nobody has ever asked them what they do and why and the managers are clueless on how the floor works and any new system is just a waste of time breaking how stuff really is done…

      1. Cersei Lannister*

        Thank you all for your input! To GreyNerd’s point, senior management says all the right things about the importance of entering data into the new system, but then doesn’t practice what they preach.

        I really like the idea of building out two versions of the system to show the consequences of inputting shoddy data. I also agree that we need to tie performance reviews and compensation to each person’s ability to timely and accurately input data into the system. I think Tree Hugger is right that I have to make sure the junior analysts are strong adopters, so that the senior management is forced to use the system. I also think if I can have the junior analysts upload the historical data before the system is launched to everyone, it will make the adoption process seem less overwhelming.

        Thanks again everyone for all your advice!

  182. TooTiredToThink*

    I assume this will be industry specific; but what are the current norms of someone having an alcoholic drink on their lunch break? I know some industries its quite acceptable and common but some industries it would be highly frowned upon, but for general white collar industries – what is considered acceptable?

    1. AccountantWendy*

      One drink. I’ve worked in places with highly laid back attitudes (including stocking the office fridge with beer and occasionally having in-office happy hours) but more than 1 drink at lunch would still be considered a little much.

    3. Seven hobbits are highly effective, people*

      It would be very much Not Ok where I work – check your employee handbook and see if it has any kind of policies that might apply.

      My dad once worked someplace where, technically, you would even be in trouble for VPNing in from home to fix a problem on a weekend if you’d had a beer, but this was widely ignored because the entire mainframe team considered it unrealistic to never drink during the weeks you were first or second on call since that was about half of the time. (I suspect that, as with so many things, everyone higher up knew that replacing mainframe guys is hard so let’s not poke at things like whether or not they drink on on-call weekends or wear ties and button-up shirts like the dress code says.)

    4. Glomarization, Esq.*

      In my experience, more than one would raise eyebrows if not actual questions from supervisors/HR.

    5. Former reporter*

      Definitely industry-specific, but at the small newspaper where I used to work, most of the full-time staff went out for Taco Tuesdays (which usually involved margaritas — only one per person!) and a former manager kept a bottle of RumChata in the office fridge and would sometimes pull it out for everyone in the afternoon (usually on Fridays or particularly stressful days).

    6. GreyNerdShark*

      Generally having a beer as part of a special occasion lunch on a Friday is considered acceptable in my country but it does vary.
      Times change of course. When I first started work my first real job (geophysics processing) had a pub next door and we had our own corner of it with the staff knowing a lot of people by name and would bring the phone over! (partly due to shift work with people pubbing after shift knockoff, partly due to cramped space, but drinks at lunch were common). Current job before we moved to a new campus there was a pub down the road which had its own nickname “Outside Operations Centre” as a figleaf… “where’s Mick? Down at OOC”. Current places is one of those big corporate campus things with the nearest pub a good 10 mins walk so only go there for special occasions. Beer is served at one of the campus food places but only after 4pm.

      1. Arts Akimbo*

        Please tell me you worked on Time Team. (Never mind, I will just imagine you worked on Time Team!)

  183. I am so not using my name!*

    Things are kicking off where I work!

    We used to be a stand-alone company, but about two years ago we got folded into a large parent company, along with 7 other small subsidiary companies.

    Our big boss should still – in theory – make decisions about staffing, spending, policy etc for our company, but the large parent company are having more and more of a say, and we feel they are ‘flexing their muscles’.

    My immediate boss left about this time last year. Our parent company said that they wanted to trial something. Instead of replacing him with another full time person, they wanted to hire a full time person, but split them between us and one of the other subsidiary companies.

    I pushed back very strongly. My previous boss worked more than his contracted hours and still wasn’t completely on top of his workload; how did they think someone could do the job in half the time?

    The parent company insisted, and my big boss seemed to just go along with it.

    They eventually filled the post, and it had been a disaster. My boss is fighting fires for the two days he works, and only scratching the surface of what needs to be done.

    It has started to come to light that things are being missed, which is beginning to impact upon staff (think: information not being put on the system in time for new staff to get paid on time, sick leave not being tracked, information not being passed on in a timely fashion).

    New boss also has a very unfortunate manner with most of my colleagues; when it’s just us two in our office we chat, laugh and joke. When other staff members come in, he is almost surly and sometimes ignores people whilst they stand awkwardly waiting to speak to him … it’s embarrassing!

    His 6 month probation period is due to come to an end soon. I had hoped that big boss would acknowledge it is not working having a part time manager and would go to bat for us with the parent company, insisting we need to reinstate a full time post.

    She is very evasive when I raise the issue; I understand she can’t tell me what is happening behind the scenes with this person’s job, but it would be reassuring to hear that she sees the issues and will try to get them resolved with the parent company.

    In the meantime staff are complaining to each other (but not to big boss) about the isssues. I am sick of being the one to highlight issues all the time, I can’t help but feel it makes me look like a negative nancy, even when I am clear I am raising issues to protect us from certain regulatory consequences.

    *sigh* it’s exhausting!

    1. WellRed*

      Stop raising the issue. She either doesn’t get it or doesn’t care. The most you might do is *make * it her problem on the things where it mattets (Bob didn’t get me the data for tge client reports. What should I tell the client). If you are in the US people absolutely need to be paid on time. Does she know this happening? Does HR? It’s grounds for an EEOC complaint. ( someone correct me uf I have the wrong agency(.

      1. Ron McDon*

        Thanks for your reply. We’re not in the US, but you’re right, people need to be paid on time.

        The HR at the parent company know that my boss is struggling, apparently they’ve said they’ll offer more support/training. But the issue is still that you can’t do a full time job in part time hours.

        My colleague and I found out yesterday about things not being put on the system (either on time or at all) and I was going to email big boss, but I think I should speak to my immediate boss first?

        It didn’t feel right to go to big boss without speaking to him first, but i’m a little concerned that he will just sweep it under the carpet. It feels like it’s heading towards me going above his head to highlight what’s being missed and it’s setting my anxiety off a bit! I like him, I just feel the job is too much for the hours he’s given, but that no-one will acknowledge it!

    2. Troutwaxer*

      Make sure you CYAWP and then let it go. Obviously your boss either doesn’t care or can’t do anything about it. Make sure you CYAWP often enough that you won’t get into trouble with a regulatory body.

      1. Ron McDon*

        Thank you. I am making sure that any requests etc I send to my boss are done via email so it’s all trackable.

        I feel v sorry for him but also annoyed that this set up is impacting upon our staff.

        I am not ‘supposed’ to be involved with any HR/personnel issues, so at least I won’t get the blame for that stuff not being done.

        I should let it go, you’re right; I’ve raised it with the big boss, she can’t or won’t do anything, it’s not impacting my workload, I should just let the chips fall where they may.

        Thank you for the reassurance that there’s nothing else I can do.

        1. ..Kat..*

          It would be a good idea to job search while you still have a job. And stash away money in case this job implodes.

  184. Sassafras*

    I think layoffs are coming in my department…do I start looking for jobs now or wait it out? Due to new regulations, my small specialised department of a Great Company is now overseen by a large external company, though we’re still employed by the Great Company. The external company has recently asked us to send some of our work to them, and their staff have also been logging in remotely and completing some of our reports (we were not notified about this change until after it started happening). Retiring staff have not been replaced and I’m worried that with the reduced workload, layoffs could be next. I have a unique mix of skills so might be retained, but another possibility is that our department space is rented out to the external company and we become their employees (with worse pay and conditions). Should I start looking for a new job now or wait for concrete news? I love this job (great benefits, location, and people) but it could take a long time to find another job in this industry.

    1. animaniactoo*

      Start looking. Looking doesn’t obligate you to take and you’ll have a better sense of what’s possible and what you need to do if you do end up with layoffs.

      1. Kendra*

        +1

        It never hurts to know what kinds of jobs are currently available in your area and field.

      2. beanie gee*

        And you’d at least have an updated resume and maybe some interviewing practice, which is always positive regardless of what happens.

      3. Psyche*

        Yes. Look while you can afford to be picky. If you see a good opportunity you can apply. If not, you can wait. Even if you are offered another job you don’t have to take it if the pay/benefits are not high enough.

    2. Anon-Today*

      I waited it out in my previous job, thinking I’d be one of the “safe” ones, and the post-lay-off environment was completely beyond my ability to cope. It was like a tornado and people were the debris. I wound up begging to be let go and spending a good deal of my severance on therapy.

      Don’t wait! Even if you survive, you won’t be in Kansas after it all blows over!

  185. A different anonymous today*

    How do you get yourself motivated to start applying for jobs, when you are worn out from your overwhelming workload?

    Basically, I had an ah-ha moment yesterday. I have spent 3 weeks putting together the documentation to show great-grandboss how much work I do. I, alone, am managing 2x as much volume as some of the guys (yes, but they have “industry expertise or were hired in from outside”). Worse, I am doing both my job and the job of the manager above me (who we all understand is overloaded as well. The hope was that there would be SOME commitment to create a second position, split the work so I could do the strategy, and the core day-to-day would go to the new person.

    Well, not only have I not heard back, but worse, on another front, the leadership are pulling my central coordinator resource – who did a lot of the day-to-day overflow – and replacing them with a brand new person (politically a different department) as part of a reorganization.

    I’m in therapy because I have a newly identified pattern of getting myself into toxic personal relationships (2 long term ones) where I give (and set no boundaries) and never know when to quit. I was seen as the good wife, but beneath it all, I recognize that I was being used once it was over – I ignored all the red flags during the relationship.

    I realized today – that I’ve created the same dynamic at work. I am outperforming, doing amazing, and as a result – get no appreciation and basically, taken advantage of.

    I am relatively well paid, get to use my brain, have pretty outstanding benefits…those are the reason I’m still here right now. But I think I need to get out… I’m exhausted, and it is only going to get worse. I can try to move within the company (I would get 2 of the 3 items – in most cases, they won’t drop my pay, I’ll just get no increases until it catches up to me, if ever).

    So how do I motivate myself to look when I just want to lay down and sleep? (I’m working just above 10 hours a day… plus commute and minimal life… so I don’t have a lot of free time).

    And – please reassure me – I’m not the only person who has replicated their dysfunction at work as well as personally?

    1. Anon-Today*

      I was in a situation that was unworkable and also in therapy. Totally different circumstances – filling in for someone let go during a reduction-in-force, and they reduced the force by too much.

      I had to ask to be laid off with severance & without cause. I told my boss & her boss that I was looking for another job, and if they lay me off they can pick their moment instead of leaving them in the lurch. They knew that what they’d thrown me into was an uncomfortable situation, and they went along with my idea. It was fortunately during the summer, so I could swim & go to therapy and make plans to move on (and grieve the job). I was in a new job before the severance ran out.

      If that’s not in the cards for you, could you try getting medical leave? Then you’d have that same kind of freedom to heal and move on.

      Good luck!

    2. Just Another Username*

      I’m in a situation now where deep down I know I’m in a toxic job (for a multitude of reasons). The thought of job hunting and potentially moving again only a year after starting my current position is exhausting. I’m so tired mentally and emotionally when the work week is done the last thing I want to do is start sifting through job listings.

      One thing that helps motivate me is thinking in terms of one year…Can I see myself in my current role for another year? Will I be making the same complaints in a year’s time? What would my life look like one year from now if I were to get a different job?

      Seeing the potential of a positive future can be a great motivator. I hope that helps!

    3. ..Kat..*

      Please cut back your hours to normal. See Alison’s posts where she answers questions on how to push back on too much work. They are very helpful. This will get you the time you need to apply for jobs as well as rest. Don’t be surprised if you need more sleep than average for a few months. You have worn out your body, mind, and soul – and you need to heal. But, be mindful that if if goes on too long, this is a sign of depression.

      Yes, I have had toxic relationships like you describe and have replicated the
      them with a toxic job. I am now in a good relationship and a non-toxic job. Therapy was a big help. It helped me see the patterns and how to avoid them. And how to advocate for better for myself.

      Good luck. Write back and let us know how you are doing.

  186. AnonymousNurse*

    I know this is way far down but hoping someone will help!

    A coworker I knew well passed away this week in a horrible and tragic accident 10 minutes after leaving work. It has been a very tough week at work as we deal with the loss. Unfortunately our job is such that we have to “move on” without him, which has been hard. Our organization has organized “healing services” which are optional periods of time with the hospital chaplain to discuss feelings of grief, but made no mention of honoring his life. It just felt….impersonal and thrown together. I guess I’m just wondering how to deal with the loss while still working? How does one deal with the loss of a coworker professionally? Is it acceptable to grieve for a few weeks? I’ve never dealt with a death of a coworker before.

    1. LCL*

      I have dealt with this twice. 1 coworker I was friends with, the other I didn’t really care for. In both cases, what helped me afterwards was bringing my focus back to our customers.

    2. beanie gee*

      I am so sorry. I don’t have experience with this type of situation, but it does seem reasonable to grieve for as long as it takes. Grief is grief – there isn’t an unacceptable amount of time to get through that process. I’m really sorry the company hasn’t done more to help coworkers through this hard time.

      Will there be a service that coworkers will be invited to? Maybe you and your coworkers could do something together afterwards to honor him. Or if not at the service, something informal at work. Even if the company doesn’t officially sponsor it, a group of you could organize something over lunch or after work?

    3. CatCat*

      Yes, it’s totally acceptable to grieve for a few weeks or however long it takes. It is okay to talk to other people at work about missing the coworker. It is okay to share things about the coworker that you liked and admired. I am sure you are not alone in experiencing grief over this. I’m so sorry this happened. Something about identical happened where I work to someone I only knew in passing, but who others knew well. It was extremely sad. A couple of coworkers were very impacted. The site of the tragedy became a small memorial site and people would visit and leave flowers, pictures, and other small tokens. That seemed to be helpful for some people in processing. Again, I’m so sorry.

    4. Kendra*

      Even when you have time to prepare for it, it’s hard. We lost a staff member to pancreatic cancer a few months ago, and I still get occasional stabs of missing her (I was filing some old paperwork yesterday and found a self-evaluation she’d filled out last year, and it brought tears to my eyes). I don’t think there’s a specific time limit, until or unless it starts interfering with your life or work, and then it might be a good idea to talk to a grief counselor or therapist.

      There’s no one right way to grieve; if nobody above you has considered having a memorial service for him, it could be that they’re still in shock and haven’t gotten to that stage in their thought processes yet, or they might expect something like that to be done by his family or church (assuming he was religious), rather than his workplace. I wouldn’t read too much into it, and either way, there’s no reason you couldn’t volunteer to organize something yourself, if it’s a necessary part of saying goodbye for you. I would ask around first though, just to make sure you’re not conflicting with anything his family’s doing (you don’t want to plan a memorial that draws people or attention away from theirs).

      1. AnonymousNurse*

        Thank you all for your kind words. The family is going to be having their own service soon and will be inviting all of us, so there’s that. We’re also doing sympathy cards+ donations to the family (all optional so no one feels pressured). On the floor, we’re sharing our stories and personal moments as well with him, which has been super helpful. There are still tears at times, but its still a fresh wound for many of his friends. I think because the details of the accident are still vague, a lot of the anger is based on rumors/possibly untrue reports and that’s not helping.
        It just feels like we’re all grieving, but the organization does not acknowledge the fact that ~100 employees of theirs are struggling and didn’t put out a statement or anything regarding this. I guess I just don’t even know what the company should be doing, so maybe this is normal? Idk.

        1. Acornia*

          Curious, what do you think would have been better? If the information is vague, probably best if the company doesn’t get into the sharing information part. They’ve provided pastoral support for people who need it.
          I’m just not clear on what you think they should have done better, given the difficulty with finding out solid information?

        2. Kendra*

          Would something like wearing a black ribbon be helpful for you and your coworkers? I’ve worn one pinned under my nametag before; most people will recognize it as a sign of mourning or remembrance, and it might help to have an outward expression of your grief that won’t get in the way or interfere with your work.

          It’s impossible to say what’s going on with your upper management; they could be doing nothing because they flat-out don’t know how to deal with this situation, or simply because they’re all jerks (although that seems unlikely). I try to assume ignorance before malice; if they don’t know how to address your (the group’s) grief, they could think that saying the wrong thing is worse than saying nothing – which, to someone who’s grieving, is often not the case; many people would rather hear a slightly off-kilter expression of sympathy than nothing at all.

          They could also just be convenient targets for the kind of anger that’s part of the grieving process; a month from now, you may even wonder why it bothered you so much at the time. Or not! Either way, if you’re ever in a management position when something like this happens, you can learn from their mistakes.

          1. AnonymousNurse*

            Thank you for keeping me in perspective, one of the things I love about this site. Helpful to get advice from people outside the situation.
            Both of you make valid points I didn’t consider. I’m thinking it’s ignorance rather than malice as well and I think all the emotions regarding this play into it a lot.

    5. WellRed*

      I would guess it also feels hard because it was a normal day then…10 minutes later they are gone. Driving home or whatever. I am sorry.

      1. Lilith*

        I know this isn’t the same thing or quite what you are looking for, but a family member is a nurse and whenever she lost a patient, she would donate blood. It was her minor way of thinking that the death wasn’t totally in vain. I’m sorry you& your colleagues are going through this.

        1. AnonymousNurse*

          I donate blood very regularly but a bunch of us are going in honor of him next week! Thanks for thinking of this, super helpful.

    6. AnonymousNurse*

      Thank you all for your kind words. The family is going to be having their own service soon and will be inviting all of us, so there’s that. We’re also doing sympathy cards+ donations to the family (all optional so no one feels pressured). On the floor, we’re sharing our stories and personal moments as well with him, which has been super helpful. There are still tears at times, but its still a fresh wound for many of his friends. I think because the details of the accident are still vague, a lot of the anger is based on rumors/possibly untrue reports and that’s not helping.
      It just feels like we’re all grieving, but the organization does not acknowledge the fact that ~100 employees of theirs are struggling and didn’t put out a statement or anything regarding this. I guess I just don’t even know what the company should be doing, so maybe this is normal? Idk.

      1. WellRed*

        It sounds like your company doesn’t have a clue how to handle this but you habd have some other options. If you ever get chance to provide feedback, this may be something to mention.

    7. LNLN*

      A coworker of mine died several years ago. I maintained a team work calendar so we could track each other’s shifts and days off. I could not bear to just leave Rosemary off the calendar, so I wrote “missing Rosemary” where her hours would have been. I did that for several months. Some of my coworkers commented they really appreciated it. I found some comfort in that.

  187. Tigger*

    So something happened last night that bugged me. So my boyfriend had to leave work early because of a family emergency. He has been on the job for about 6 months and loves it. His boss called him last night very drunk to make sure everything was ok and to just talk for over an hour. My boyfriend thought it was fine but I feel like a boundary was crossed. I don’t mind the call and the reason, just the fact that boss was drunk. What are your thoughts?

      1. WellRed*

        Right? This shouldn’t even need to be said. Is this the only boundary crossing that’s come up? Is it a start up bro culture? Is the boss a woman with a mothering complex or romantic notions? Or, a man with romantic ideas, for that.matter?

  188. Free Meerkats*

    Today I dove deep into massaging and analyzing 5 years worth of data on molybdenum loading to our treatment plant, looking for a trend. Good news – I found a definite trend up. Bad news – I found a definite trend up.

    Our industrial base isn’t the source, They’re less than 5% of the load. So our summer (and probably fall) are going to be consumed with finding the source(s) and eliminating them. Along with all our regular work; and me doing most of RetiredBoss’s work. Overtime earnings FTW!

  189. user321*

    I’ve been fired today after just several months at the company.

    The thing is: it was an awful, awful job (the environment was toxic). I had considered quitting one million times, starting in my first week. I didn’t quit since I had the feeling that despite all the toxic environment I was learning a lot in terms of technical stuff.

    I currently have no alternative and finding one where I learn so much and earn the same salary won’t be easy.

    Any advice?

    1. Anon-Today*

      Were you let go without cause? You’re probably not eligible for unemployment, but it’s worth investigating.

      You can start mentally or even physically writing the story that you want to tell: “I didn’t plan to stay long, but I wanted to learn something and make a contribution before leaving.”

      Meanwhile, sign on with a temp agency so you will get some good will behind you that will be your most recent reference, and you may even wind up temp-to-hire.

      Let us know how it turns out!

      1. user321*

        I’m eligible for unemployment.

        I’m more anxious about finding a next job and my psychological state in the process. I love to work. I love feeling busy and helping people. A job – any job – fulfils at least some of the things (mostly the busy part). Also, I feel like a loser and have no idea how I will explain this short stay to my friends.

        1. Kendra*

          Hopefully, your friends will be supportive and sympathetic; I don’t think I know anyone who hasn’t seriously faceplanted at least once as an adult, and many people have done it much harder than it sounds like you did (you’re not being indicted! You’re eligible for unemployment! You probably feel terrible right now, but at least you’re not feeling terrible in jail!). Don’t beat yourself up too much; examine what went wrong, be honest with yourself about any mistakes you made, and try to learn something from them.

          And, honestly, I think it might be easier to explain this short position to future employers than if you’d been there for five years and then been fired (at least, assuming you don’t have multiple short stays to explain away). “It wan’t a good fit” doesn’t really sound all that awful, and is most believable if you only worked somewhere for a few months (long enough for them to get a solid impression of you and your work, but not so long that they feel any particular loyalty to you yet; that’s what trial periods are for, after all).

          Good luck with your search!

        2. Anon-Today*

          A temp job will build your confidence. Even if it’s totally unrelated to your work, you’ll stay busy and be making a contribution to someone else’s day. Nobody hires a temp if they don’t really need one!

    2. Close Bracket*

      I’m sorry. Even when you hate your job, it sucks to lose it. You are definitely not a loser. Losing your job is just part of life. It happens to a lot of people, not just to losers. Take the weekend to wind down just like any other weekend, then start job hunting Monday just like you were starting work.

  190. Job Seeking Anon*

    For some reason, I hate/dread writing interview thank you notes! Anyone want to write mine for me?

    1. Whiskey and ginger ale*

      Dear HR Manager

      Thank you for inviting me to hear about how great your organization is and what type of guru, ninja, savant you need in your marketing department. I especially appreciate your pointed questions about my free time and how I wouldn’t have any should I be lucky enough to land this position.

      It was great that your company embodies the team concept in hiring, but I’m not sure Pat from janitorial and Chris from the cafe were necessary for this interview, but I digress.

      Salutations and I’m.sure you’ll ghost me…

      Human Interviewee

      Did I mail it?

      1. Whiskey and ginger ale*

        Haha. Sorry for the typos. I’m really drinking whiskey and ginger ale and perhaps I’m a bit ‘happy’

  191. Anon-Today*

    Reduction in force announced this week, and the job I had applied for elsewhere was eliminated in a RIF there. So far only vacancies are affected here, but I’ve been through this before. They will look at middle management to cut costs like my previous employer did (and my sister-in-law’s brother’s employer did and many others are doing). The top of the organizational chart will never reorganize themselves out of a job, and never give themselves less pay. The people at the bottom do all the work, and I do quite a bit of work myself plus manage some people…. much as I did before being laid off from my previous job.

    I would rather be demoted than laid off, but it never works that way. Ugh. Safe for now, but still…

  192. "Senior" Software Engineer*

    Does anyone know of a way to hire someone to help you get better at prioritization?

    Ideally, I’m looking for a professional whom I can pay to help me train to prioritize tasks more efficiently and be more confident in my prioritization. I’m looking for someone whom I would meet with over the course of multiple sessions, like a cognitive behavioral therapist or basketball coach but instead equipped to teach professional skills rather than emotional-regulation or sports ones. At the end of working together, I’d like to be able to confidently & quickly handle the following situations:
    — Identify the highest priority among a set of 10 tasks and explain why it is the highest.
    — Given a set of 50 recent emails from colleagues and error-monitoring systems, identify the subset which can be safely de-prioritized or delegated to another person/team.
    If its helpful to be specific, I’d like to get 2-3x faster at identifying the highest priority task and be able to de-prioritize emails in under 15 minutes.

    One thing I can imagine is that someone would present me with a scenario and ask me to rank the priorities in it, and then we would talk through my reasoning. Another is that they’d come with a particular method or framework (I dunno, a version of the Eisenhower Matrix?) and would have me practice applying it.

    What I can’t imagine is how to go about finding someone whom I can pay to do that with me. Anyone know what such a person would be called?

    2. Not So NewReader*

      Teach yourself?
      Prioritizing ten tasks is something that you might stand a good chance of teaching yourself over time. (Not that long a period of time.)

      1) Emergencies are always first.
      2) Short deadlines are second.
      3) Things that consume a lot of time are next in line. Get them into process while you move on to the next thing.
      4) Other stuff that is important in present time.
      5) Future stuff that would be helpful to start now and that will save you from this harried feeling you have now.

      You want to prioritize 50 emails in 15 minutes?
      So this means you must handle 3.33 email per minute or a bit less than 20 seconds on each email.
      This probably means you can only go by the subject line of the email and cannot read the actual email. I think navigating alone would send you over the less than 20 second mark. (Okay it would with the lovely internet we have here.)
      Subject lines are not a plan I would like because people do peopley things such as send emails that are labeled “stuff” or “question”. This is not helpful for prioritizing.
      I would definitely feel uncomfortable delegating an email to someone else when I knew I had spent less than 20 seconds looking at it.

      I think you should go by your action list for the day. Answer the emails that pertain to your top priorities and check emails for new things, especially emails from the boss that say there is a change in priority.

      1. Ron McDon*

        This is how I learned how to do it – that, and making mistakes! My first office job, I got it wrong a few times, which led me to understand better what my boss thought were the more important items.

        I think your wording around becoming more confident in knowing you’ve prioritised correctly is the key – is this a role that you are quite new to?

        I find that it takes me a little while to settle into a job and feel confident that I’m making the right choices.

        Do you have a boss you can check in with, to see if they agree about how you’re prioritising? You might find that they think you’re doing everything right, which would help with your confidence about what you’re prioritising. Then you just need to make those decisions a bit quicker.

        I am not sure this is something an ‘outside person’ can help you with, as each job is so unique. I wonder if it will just become easier with time and experience.

        1. “Senior” Software Engineer*

          I’m not new to Software Engineering, but I am starting a new role. I’ve had a number of bad experiences of joining companies and not knowing what I was supposed to work on. I’ve frequently had the experience of making prioritization errors that resulted in performance conversations. I’ve also had the experience of spending most of a day paralyzed by not knowing what I should be focusing for a given day.

          I also dread what I suspect will be another environment where I get lots of ambiguous automated error emails — I’ve found myself unsure if I should explicitly ignore these or if I should grab a colleague and have them walk me through triaging them. At my last role I just let them pile up until I decided that they were getting in the way of using email to communicate with humans that I set up gmail filters to auto-ignore the automated errors.

          I once thought that this would just come with time and experience, but I graduated 6 years ago and feel like questions like “how do I manage my email inbox so I don’t feel like I’m drowning” or “how do I determine what my real priorities are” are such core competencies for a professional that I should be competent at it by now. Thats why I’m trying to find some sort of remedial strategy I can work on.

          It would be nice if I could lean on someone internally for that, but in my experience, engineering managers tend to be too busy to devote the large amount of required time for that. I do agree that this sort of thing seems highly context-dependent. Would it be worth finding a way to slip my manager some extra money to spend more time on this sort of mentorship…ideally while keeping my need for help out of my performance review? Is there a not-unethical way to do that?

          1. Not So NewReader*

            Okay, since I am not in your field you may want to take it with a grain of salt but here goes: At the most core level, kind of like doing CPR, I will do exactly what the boss says is my priority. This can backfire as I am sure you are aware. But when I am in survival mode this is how I handle it. And I make a vow not to do the same mistake twice. My current boss noticed, “You never make the same mistake twice.” Because we have a great relationship, I said, “Noooo. I invent all new mistakes each time.” To that she said, “When you start making more mistakes than I do then we will have a chat.” We have not chatted yet and it’s been years.

            So let’s say I have tasks A through E to do. The boss has said or shown through comments that B is the of utmost importance. Then B is the first thing I work on each day or it is the longest part of my day once I get the small stuff done.

            It might be helpful to think about priority as, “How can I get the most accomplishment today?” People like things they can see. I hate saying this but some jobs the 15 minute task gets more applause than the two week long task. This is because the two week long task is a behind the scenes type of thing. It sounds kind of like kissin’ up to the boss, but I think it is of value to make sure that most days the boss can see you have had some type of accomplishment.

            I love my boss. But there are days where she will be super focused on simple task A and be all about getting that done. I do it first because I know it helps her to relax about that point and move on to ordinary work. The simple task might take me five minutes, but to her those five minutes are equal to three days worth of worry. We don’t get to pick what the boss worries about. Be sure to make mental note of the things that worry the boss. My boss worries that others are not getting replied to. So not only do I reply as soon as possible, I write down the date of my reply and method (email, phone, fax.) My boss was over the moon happy when I decided to start doing this.

            From what I am reading here your focus is on speed. Does your boss value speed? You’d do well to find out. This pacing thing might be something you are imposing on yourself and does not exist in the wild.

            In short be more willing to:
            a) ask for help from peers. (Write down the answers if need be so you do not ask the same question twice.)
            b) ask the boss what your priorities should be. (Accept that fact that it is not in our genes at birth. Even people who are good at guessing at this can guess wrong many times.)
            c) don’t let things pile up. A pile of anything usually means you need help or advice or a plan. Don’t wait for the pile to get big. When you start to notice there might be a problem then start figuring out how to solve it. This is not one problem, rather it’s two problems. We all have things get out of hand sometimes. The reluctance to ask for help/advice/other inputs and to allow the problem to grow is the most worrisome. This can be a dismissable offense. That is because bosses have to be able to trust us to speak up when something is wrong. If they can’t trust us to do that, they cannot keep us under their employ. We are their eyes and ears.
            d) When someone tells you to make a change in how you are handling a specific thing make sure you make that change.

          2. Engineer Girl*

            Would it be worth finding a way to slip my manager some extra money to spend more time on this sort of mentorship…ideally while keeping my need for help out of my performance review? Is there a not-unethical way to do that?

            This is so unethical I choked. It’s called “bribery” and is a fireable offense. If you tried it on me I’d contact HR so fast you’d hear the snap of a sonic boom.

            If you’re having problems then go talk to your manager and ask for help. Good managers want you to improve.

            Mentoring sessions don’t have to be all at once. You could schedule a series of 30 minute mini sessions.

            Why are you hiding your need for help? Everyone needs help in some topic. You know what gets managers really upset? People who hide that they are struggling.

    3. fhqwhgads*

      If you’re a software engineer, the project manager (or product manager) should be prioritizing your tasks. I’m not saying you don’t need some level of skill at prioritizing for yourself in general, so some coaching on that may be useful anyway, but in the grand scheme of things it’s probably not your responsibility to set the priority of your own tasks.

  193. Amyz*

    Any thoughts on how to address a management situation where your boss… Has serious competency issues, and moderate interpersonal boundary issues? For context, she manages a small CS team (us) and most of the team has been here longer than her. We do have a relationship with our bosses manager. I assume it’s not appropriate to take concerns to my grandboss without trying to address them with my boss first, but frankly I have no idea how to address “our metrics are completely destroyed because you have no idea how to do this job” with my direct manager.

    (And yes, I’m job hunting and so is everyone else on my team. The answer might just be that this gets figured out at some point after the whole department turns over”.

    2. Ron McDon*

      I would hope that if you’ve all been there longer than your boss and your metrics have tanked since they joined, someone higher up would notice and ask your boss what is going on.

      It is tempting to go above your bosses head (I am in this situation at the moment!), but the issue should be raised with your boss first before escalating.

      I have no idea what you could say to your boss though! Other commenters here are really good at coming up with scripts for almost any occasion, so hopefully someone will help with that. I’m sorry you’re in this situation, it really sucks!

    3. Not So NewReader*

      Find out if she has said this to other people also.
      I felt like I had been punched the day lousy boss said to me, “Everyone here hates you.” I decided not to let it get me and I asked my cohorts. Yep, she had told each one of them the same thing.

      Get a few of you together and go to the grand boss. If the GB is a decent boss, she’d want to know. You have nothing to lose as the job is already falling apart on you.

  194. Weekend Worker*

    Weekend workers – what do you do? How did you get into it?

    I’ve been working weekends in healthcare for a long time now, and I’m totally burned out. For a variety of reasons, I’d like to just work a job with set hours, preferably at a desk. QA is good, paperwork is good, data crunching is good. I’m fairly flexible.

    But I’d also like to keep working weekends. I enjoy the schedule! Appointments without PTO, less crowded attractions during the week, and most importantly, my husband also works weekends and is uninterested in changing jobs. I would like to have days off with him without having to schedule vacation. Just… finding an office job on the weekends seems to be hard. Everything I’m finding is what I currently do, gig economy stuff, or low paid retail.

    Suggestions? Help?

    1. Kendra*

      I’m a librarian, and many of us are open on the weekends (although we’re not usually paid much better than retail unless you have time to stop and get a master’s degree first – if you walked in the door with an MLS and said you’d actually prefer to work weekends, I’m pretty sure a lot of library directors/managers would fall over themselves to hire you).

      Hmm…maybe something in the hospitality field? Or some kind of office work with emergency services? Dispatching may or may not be the way you want to go (although I’ve heard the pay is decent, and having a background in healthcare couldn’t hurt), but many police and fire departments also have office managers and/or records clerks, and they’re usually open 24/7.

      Also, if you’re in the US, I’ve heard that the Census is hiring. It would be temporary, and I have no idea what the schedule is like, but if you’re desperate for a change, that could carry you for a few months while you look for something more permanent.

      Good luck!

    2. Seven hobbits are highly effective, people*

      What about something like a call center or IT helpdesk? Some of those jobs are 24/7 in shifts, so they probably hire for weekends. I’d rather substitute teach a class of 40 hyperactive 7 year olds than have a job where I have to answer the phone, so I admit I have not looked into these in any detail myself. I am decently sure that back when I worked for a bank (doing things that involved numbers and not the phone) that the people who were phone people had weekend shifts available doing things like debt collection calls.

  195. Part timer*

    I’m hunting for part time work, and there’s very little coming up in my region. Is it worth applying for jobs that say they’re full time, and seeing if they’re open to part time/job share arrangements? Or is this a big no-no? My area is finance, if that makes any difference.

    1. Kendra*

      Maybe? It might depend on how many hours you’re looking for (I don’t think my employer would be thrilled to split a job in two and then have to pay for insurance for two people instead of one, for example). But I can see some employers going for the idea; in finance, don’t they usually want to get more people involved? You could point out that hiring two part-timers would give them a little bit more redundancy.

      Also, if you’re in the US, the Census is hiring; it’s temporary, but it’s work, and the pay’s not terrible (I’m not sure what the hours are like, though).

    2. Cows go moo*

      I have applied for a full time job before and negotiated it down to 30 hours per week. If you’re applying be sure to mention your part time requirements in the cover letter though, so nobody’s time gets wasted if it’s not even a remote possibility.

  197. Jessen*

    Late to the party, but I didn’t want to post this from work. This is the second time in 6 months that I’ve been having to wait for an email at work to ensure I’m still going to actually be allowed to show up to work and get paid. First one was the government shutdown, now they’re monkeying with the contract and not giving us a lot of info.

    Does that sound like a reasonable explanation for why I’d be looking for another job after only like 8 months? I know that’s not ideal, and this is really my first proper “professional” job. And I want out of this area I’m in too, preferably without waiting for a few years to make this a long term stay. I just don’t think I can handle that, for reasons that are honestly unrelated to the job.

    Right now I’d describe my job as frontline IT, although I’m looking at getting some basic networking and security certificates. I know I’ve got a few strikes against me here, so I’m trying to figure out how to spin it the best.

    1. RVA Cat*

      I’d be more concerned about whatever “strikes against you” that may come up in a reference check. The shutdown and issues with the contract are out of your control.

      1. Jessen*

        Honestly the main thing I’d be worried about with a reference check is that I don’t have a lot of people to go to. Not that they’d say anything bad, but that if I’m not having them contact people at this job then I don’t really have anything that I’d consider a professional reference. My prior experience is all in low-level customer service jobs.

        I wasn’t considering the shutdown and contract issues as strikes against me. More that I’m applying out after less than a year and to jobs that aren’t local to me.

        1. atexit8*

          People should understand that you want more stability in employment.
          Just say that the recent government shutdown was an eye opener.

          1. Reba*

            Yes! A couple people who used to regularly contract where I work have left for private sector FT jobs in the past few months. They weren’t even looking before the shutdown, but thought, “you know, I really don’t want to go through that again.” Totally reasonable.

        2. Anon-Today*

          Customer service jobs are good experience. Reference checks don’t have anything to do with competence in the job description. If you were reliable, helpful, friendly and paid attention to detail those would be qualities anyone would look for.

          1. Jessen*

            Thanks. My last job might actually have some value – I was in the call center in the “demanding client” section, which I am apparently fairly good at. I’ve been working on figuring out how to leverage that in future jobs! I seem to have the right skill set for communicating with people who want things that are not physically possible yesterday.

  198. Lucy*

    Last week, I talked about how the General Manager won’t allow my co-worker to switch shifts with me to attend a close relative’s funeral because she’s didn’t have sick days and on a set schedule.

    Update: we did end up switching shifts. GM was upset because the restaurant got busy and mentioned that customers complained because of wait times and made it seem it was my fault I was doing coffee bar and not serving. (Want to add that we are next door to another restaurant and when their wait time gets to be 30 mins or more, people come to our restaurant in large crowds. Also I do tend to do both coffee bar and server when we get busy).
    Anyways we were both written up for insubordination.

    1. WellRed*

      Still don’t understand the GMs problem. Switching shifts implies shift was covered. If that’s inadequate, that’s on management. If the mgr has a bug up the ass because His Wishes Were Gone Against that’s a whole separate problem unsolvable by you and your co-workers because you can’t fix an ass. Except to quit en masse and find similar work elsewhere.

  199. Ehhhhh*

    Hi all. I hope you don’t mind the repost (did it after the weekend so I don’t think anyone saw it and I’d love some insight.

    So I’ve been working in my current role for a little over two months. I applied for a position at my level, but was offered a more entry-level position. I was told that I don’t have direct experience working FOR a consultant (I have worked in this industry for 15 years and worked WITH hundreds of consultants). I accepted the role because of other perks (work from home, and GREAT time-off package), and my offer letter says I will be moved up to the level I initially applied for within a year. In the meantime, I’m scraping by. I tried to negotiate the salary with one of the owners on the foundation that I’m beyond entry-level (with a related graduate degree (plus certification), and 15 years of related experience), but the salary was firm and I dropped it.

    A week before I started, someone who got the role at the level I applied for started as well. I was told that she used to work for a consultant, so I figured, wow, they really put a lot of stock in that. But after talking to her on training calls before others came on the line, while she worked for a consultant, she did so in a capacity that all the work she is doing now is completely foreign to her. It turns out, her boyfriend is a client of the consultant, made a call and had an in.

    I’ll admit, I was frustrated, but got over it quickly. I focused on wowing to the best of my abilities in the hopes I’ll be promoted back to my previous level sooner, and I’ve excelled in the role. I just found out through this coworker that the owner (who was firm in salary with me) told her that she needs to sit with me and see how I do things because she’s flailing and requires way more training than the managers thought, and their patience is thin. When I talked to my direct supervisor about this, she talked to the owner and said it’s a co-working thing because I can learn things from her as she can learn things from me. Which is the complete opposite of what this co-worker told me the owner said to her. Plus, she has no experience in what we do, and started just a week before me, so clearly the learning here will be very one-sided.

    I’m typically very helpful in nature, but I’m upset that I’m basically tasked with training the person who got the role I was more qualified for (plus the 20% increase in pay). While I don’t hoard knowledge typically, my instinct here is to dig in my heals because of the gall in the request, the fact that the owner isn’t really coming clean with his motive, and because what this inexperienced coworker needs to learn is something I’ve learned through years of experience and education. I’ve also thought about showing her some of my work and some of my sources and letting her connect the dots on her own to keep my investment to a minimum.

    What are your thoughts? Am I just being super bitter, or are my feelings justified? What would you do?

    1. atexit8*

      Yeah, I would not be at all pleased.

      Why are you learning from your co-worker that you will be “training” her?
      Why didn’t the owner tell you this yourself?

      I can’t offer advice on what to do, but I don’t fault you for being super bitter!

      1. Ehhhhh*

        That’s what I want to ask, but the owner doesn’t know how candid the coworker was in relaying their conversation to me and I don’t want to get them in trouble. Plus, I don’t want to come across as an unhelpful jerk.

    2. Anon-Today*

      Justified in your feelings, yes. But your best bet is to be a good sport and cheerfully help her, win her over, and then slide easily into her job when she ultimately gets the axe.

      1. Ehhhh*

        Thank you for responding. I know I don’t have much of a choice. I’ve been in similar situations before with former employers and “cheerfully” helped thinking it would help with a promotion, but it didn’t and I was told I’m too good to lose.

        I don’t want to go down that road anymore. I know I’m the common denominator and I don’t know what I’m doing to paint myself into these corners.

        1. Una*

          What are you doing to paint yourself into these corners? You applied for a job at your level but accepted one that is lower, despite the insult to your experience. You tried to negotiate a higher salary, but weren’t actually going to walk away when they said no, which doesn’t put you in a strong negotiating position. I’m sorry that you’ve ended up working for people who have taken advantage of your nature to be an agreeable team player, but I think their offer of a lower level job was a red flag. I’m not suggesting you were wrong for taking it for other reasons, but it did put you in a position of accepting less than you are worth.

          1. Fortitude Jones*

            Agreed. You should have walked when they changed the position on you, but you didn’t, and now this company thinks they can continue to jerk you around because you won’t do anything about it. This sucks. If it were me, I’d start looking again.

            1. Ehhh*

              @Una. I wish I knew what I was doing to have this keep happening, but I don’t. I’ve been told by my spouse that I must be too accommodating, but I was raised where you do what your employer asks, and if you do that, and do it well (which I do), then the rest takes care of itself. But my parents are in their 60’s and 70’s and spent their careers in the Federal Government. This is not where I work.

              They told me about the role switch during the interview, but I didn’t know what that meant then as we didn’t talk salary until the offer (I don’t care about titles, just pay me). Then at the offer, as we discussed salary, it became clear. I was tempted to walk, but didn’t because I was out of work for 2 months at that point and the company offers more perks than I’ve ever seen. Plus, it’s in my offer letter to be moved up sooner than later with a date. I wasn’t that mad about it until I found out that I’m expected to help out the person who got the higher role.

  200. Drowned Lab Rat*

    Hi everyone, I’ve been a regular reader of AAM for around two years now, but this is my first comment on the site. I’m feeling the need to vent after the absolute whiplash I’ve experienced at work the past two days.

    I’m a year and two months into my second job out of college at Chemical Company. I really enjoy the work I do and appreciate being lucky enough to have the opportunity to work in R&D with only a bachelor’s degree. However, over the past few months my coworkers and I have been noticing safety and housekeeping issues in the lab. Some of these issues can be attributed to the unsafe practices of our coworkers, but we also suspected others were due to equipment not functioning properly. Next, we had a hunch that not all of the fume hoods were working correctly and starting submitting work orders as well documenting what issues we were running into. Maintenance would usually come up to chat with us about the problem, but they didn’t seem interested in diagnosing/fixing the issue. They would tell us that we were using the hoods incorrectly (this contradicted what the hood vendor told us during the training session) and it was functioning properly. Our concerns seemed to be swept under the rug for several months and I started to feel like I was being gaslighted up until this week.

    All of the fume hoods in the facility were due for their yearly re-certification this week and the company brought in a third-part inspector. On Thursday morning, the hood inspectors made their way into my lab to start their preliminary checks. About fifteen minutes go by and my manager suddenly comes into the lab and tells everyone to stop what they are doing and meet him downstairs. During this meeting, one of the higher-up managers let us know that more hoods were failing re-certification than expected. We were not permitted to do any work in the fume hoods until further notice. A fume hood is integral to the work my group does, so we all sat
    our desks pretending to read emails and analyze data (a few analytical instruments have been down for a while) until our shifts were up.

    Today, I get to work and ask my manager if we are allowed back in the hoods. He tells me that the inspectors are coming back to finish our lab first thing in the morning and then would let us know ASAP. I sat at my desk for a few hours listening to YouTube/browsing the internet. All of a sudden, my manager and the HR manager come into our shared office area and started looking through my coworker’s desk and locker. They both leave for a few minutes before our manager comes back in to let us know my coworker would no longer be working for the company. This coworker was known to rather negligent when it came to lab safety, so we figured he was fired. However, about an hour later we see an email from coworker announcing that he had been laid off today. Soon after that, we get an email from a manager letting us know which hoods were safe to use. Those of us who could got back to work for the few hours we had left. I’m still slightly shaken up.

    1. WellRed*

      Are you shaken up by the firing or the possibility of being exposed to say, ebola? Either is understandable. For the latter, I woukd think it’s Ok to seek clarification, but I don’t work in a remotely similar field.

      2. Drowned Lab Rat*

        I’m mostly just taken aback by how suddenly management changed their tune. The same issues have been going on for a long time, but it seemed like our complaints weren’t taken seriously until they were faced with possible shut down due to the failed inspections. Maybe I’m still naive since I’ve only been in the working world for two years, but I find this whole situation strange.

        Sorry, I failed to mention above that my department is currently taking heat for being over budget, so the “being laid off” comment was worrisome in context.

        1. Ron McDon*

          In my experience, lots of companies are happy to turn a blind eye to things their employees are complaining about (especially if it will cost them money to fix) and only change their tune when someone outside the company raises it as an issue.

          It’s worrying that complaints about essential health and safety equipment is being ignored though, that’s a huge red flag.

          I would be very concerned about their lack of concern for your welfare.

        2. Not So NewReader*

          This comes up often enough.
          One place had X problem. It was reported to management and nothing happened.
          Months went by. Finally OSHA dropped in and the problem got fixed.

          It was believed an employee called OSHA.
          The moral of the story is if companies can’t “hear” their employees, then the employees will make phone calls.
          Companies do snap to attention when outsiders come in.

    2. KM*

      Wow, that’s quite a shock. We’ve had two “lay offs” (firings) this year and they left me reeling because I liked the people. Hang in there, things will calm down and go back to normal soon.

    3. I'm a Little Teapot*

      Your coworker may have been saying he was laid off to save face. I would take this as a signal that you shouldn’t be negligent about lab safety or behave unethically, but wouldn’t ask further at this point.

      If there are any concerns about health effects due to the malfunctioning hoods, you absolutely can ask for clarification about that.

      1. Lilith*

        Crap! I know nothing about safety issues in labs (?), but great googeelly moogelly that sounds worrisome. Are you in the US? Is this OSHA worthy? Sorry to sound all Karen Silkwood.

        1. Drowned Lab Rat*

          I’m in the US. I know about whistleblower protections, but I’d rather not risk burning a bridge beciase work history up until this point hasn’t been great.

      2. Anne (with an “e”)*

        I agree that your coworker could be trying to save face; in fact, that was my very first thought when I read about the CW being let go.

        As far as safety issues are concerned, I’m a teacher. When I first started teaching years ago, right out of grad school, I remember that the chalkboard (that’s how long ago it was) on one wall was coming loose from the wall. So, I reported to maintenance. Nothing. At the end of the year and at the beginning of the school year we were told to report classroom issues to the Powers That Be. Crickets. This went on for ~3 years. Each year the board was leaning further and further from the wall. I reported it. I even wrote that I was afraid that one day it would crash onto some students. I was ignored. However, I did save and document all my efforts to have the chalkboard reattached to the wall. Until one day the chalkboard fell onto the heads to several students in the middle of class. It was a horrible, horrendous accident. A new dry erase board was up on my wall by the end of the day. It still boggles my mind how I was completely ignored and never taken seriously.

  201. Mike S.*

    Hello. I’m a supervisor with a state agency. Sometimes my emotional intelligence filter let’s something slip out that later I will go back and think to myself that was probably not the best thing to say. During a section meeting I quoted a line from “The Jerk” as a way to introduce myself with some humor. Someone took offense to it and made a complaint to the Director’s Office. This agency has a particular reputation within the state as being toxic and gossipy and it has already spread among the sections. There was no malicious intent, but as we all know perception is everything. How can I make amends and check myself from putting my foot in my mouth in the future, or have I just cemented a reputation as an insensitive and flippant individual?

    1. WellRed*

      I think you should let it ride for now. No idea what you said but unless you can pinpoint it as truly say, racist or sexist, and be honest with yourself here, the complainer may have overreacted. What do you think?

    2. Reba*

      Let this incident ride, and resolve not to tell jokes in the future.

      Or at least, make jokes based on more recent pop culture references? Ones that are definitely not offensive?

      If I’ve understood you right, you were quoting the Steve Martin movie from 1979… even if all your coworkers were around for that–I wasn’t–are the chances really that strong that they’d all remember it and catch what you were doing? I mean, I can easily imagine a line from that era and genre coming across anywhere on the spectrum from bizarre (does this guy realize we’re in a meeting) to extremely offensive (does this guy realize that’s a crime).

      Sounds like your office loves to stir the pot unnecessarily, but that doesn’t mean you can’t learn from this.

    3. Glomarization, Esq.*

      Oh, dear. If this were me, I’d go to my immediate supervisor and say, “Look, it was incredibly stupid and tasteless of me to introduce myself with ‘I was born a poor black child,’ obviously I didn’t read the room and it was incredibly inappropriate, and I’m sorry. What do you suggest I do to make this right?” Then do what the supervisor suggests.

      If other people bring it up, repeat: “Obviously I didn’t read the room and it was incredibly inappropriate. I’m embarrassed and I hope we can put it behind us. How about those TPS reports?”

      As Reba says, yeah, “The Jerk” is kind of aging out of the consciousness of people in the workplace now. Even my own peers don’t often get it when I talk about what’s in my work bag and list the items as my wallet, an umbrella, paperwork for this one case, paperwork for the other, “and this lamp, that’s all I need.”

      1. Arts Akimbo*

        Ha, yeah. When I’m getting my stuff together to leave the house I still say “and this paddle game. And my dog.” “WOOF!” “And I don’t even need my dog.” Lucky for me my spouse has seen the movie!

    4. Not So NewReader*

      Tell them you are sorry and that you realized later the quote was not fitting for the context.

      Make less jokes. Let them get to know you. If it is a toxic environment stay away from jokes altogether.

      IF you return to making jokes try to focus on things, not beings and don’t joke about things close at hand, such as the lousy printer.

  202. Vertigo*

    Hey you know what’s not cool?

    Calling your coworker at 7:30 on a Friday night about your invoice when you were in the office with them LITERALLY ALL DAY.

    Like, I sympathize with the obvious need for money and the inconvienince of bank checks that disappear in the mail, but like…it’s Friday night and we were sitting mere feet from each other ALL DAY. And while yes, I am capable of logging into the bank account or paypal from home, I certainly don’t want to do that in the evening after I’ve taken my pants off. Of course, there’s no way to say that professionally, so I’m here ranting so I can get my irritation out and be calm and helpful on the phone.

    1. WellRed*

      It really can’t wait til Monday? I mean, you have your pants off, for goodness sake!

    2. Acornia*

      I would have said something like “Can’t this wait until I am in the office?” or “This is the kind of thing you really need to ask me for when I am at my desk.”

    3. Not So NewReader*

      It sounds like you see to it this person gets paid?

      If yes, why not initiate the conversation before you leave for the day. “I will get your money to you by x day and y time.”

      I do make an exception for people’s paychecks. We do have to make it a priority to make sure people know when and how they will be paid. I think I would have apologized for not clearing that up before we left.

  203. AlligatorSky*

    Hey all,

    Got any tips on how to beat nerves and ace an interview? I have an interview next Tuesday for a role that’s related to film production, which is my dream field. I’ve never wanted a job so much before; everything about the role is perfect for me. I’m just REALLY nervous when it comes to interviews, and I’m always a nervous wreck!

    Any advice? Thanks in advance!!

    1. Reba*

      Practice saying some of your answers out loud, or practice with a friend. Optional look in a mirror while doing it — that’s too weird for me, but some people swear by it. This will help you have what you need to say ready to be said, and to not ramble (what I always do when nervous!). Good luck!!!!

  204. WellRed*

    Practice! Killer, confidence boosting outfit. Remember, you are also interviewing them, but they wouldn’t have offered interview in the first place if you weren’t offering something of value to them.

  205. KM*

    It’s a little late in the day but hopefully I can get some others perspectives. I work in a male dominated industry in an office setting that is surprisingly about 50% women. I am a woman, as is my boss. My immediate coworkers are all men who are about my same age and at my same level, though my job tasks mirror my boss’s and they all work in the field. My immediate coworkers have taken to referring to my boss as “mom” when talking about her. They use it more in the sense of “woman with authority” and not in a “nagging” negative way, if that makes sense. It started out as a way to foil her against one of the other project managers, who is a man, like “better go talk to mom about that because dad usually does it differently”. But now it’s evolved beyond that to just referring to her as “mom” in lieu of her name. I believe that she is aware that they refer to her in that way when she is in authority mode but does not know about what it has evolved to.
    Do I say anything to anyone (them or her) about this? If I found out I was being referred to as mom by my subordinates, I would not be okay with that and would tell them so immediately. But I’m not really sure what to do in this case. She’s been okay with other gendered things that would really bother me, but it seems like this sets a bad precedent.

    2. Acornia*

      Please, say something to them. Even if it is just “her name is Jane” every time they say it. Or pointedly replying and using her name every time. But don’t let it go unchallenged. It’s not okay.

    4. Not So NewReader*

      Ugh. Institutional behaviors. This is where people assign family roles to other people in the group. It’s a means of providing an informal structure and making sense of things.

      Yeah, I’d want to lose this some place. Do something to discourage it. This a work place not a jail cell or other type of institution.

  206. SunnyD*

    I have a phone interview Monday, and they want me to fill out a very detailed application *before* even that initial phone screen, with lots of Sensitive PII data – social security number, license number, 7 years of addresses, 4 references, and sign a confidentiality / NDA.

    I am fairly happily employed, am a great fit for them, am open to them wowing me away from my job but ok if not … but I’m not really comfortable giving them my identity in a box at this early stage.

    Am I being too twitchy? Is this done in some fields?

    1. Ron McDon*

      I would never give a company all this info without a job offer (that I’d accepted). in hand. This seems like overkill for a phone interview, you don’t even know if you want to work there yet!

      I would possibly agree to the NDA (is this an interview to join the secret service?!), but the other stuff would be a firm ‘no’.

      2. The New Wanderer*

        Absolutely this. NDAs aren’t uncommon for certain industries, but no way would I give over PII until I am basically working there. That sounds like they’re asking for Secret Clearance type information, you don’t have to give that until you are obtaining that level of clearance for the job you are in, not the one you might be interviewing for.

    2. Glomarization, Esq.*

      I would consider all of this, except the NDA, as onboarding information after being hired. The NDA, however, isn’t totally unheard of. They may ask you problem-solving questions or something where they have to talk about proprietary information or business data, and they don’t want you taking that info to a competitor.

      Obligatory suggestion to have a lawyer see the NDA before you sign it, though.

      1. SunnyD*

        Thanks! I’ve seen vendors negotiate NDA language with corporations, but feel like trying to do that as an individual just puts you out of the running.

  207. Anonymous1*

    I can’t believe I did this. Had interview and inhouse recruiter asked me by email after it again what salary level I was at and what I needed to make. Well, I was looking on line and was seeing the median for that job. I emailed that. The problem, I was excited about how interview went and send not only a different amount than what I had said to her on phone but an amount only 2000.00 higher. Of course I realized it too late. I feel that it makes me look desperate for the position and that I dont value myself and my skills. Thoughts,please.

    1. Ron McDon*

      Any chance you can go back quickly and apologise for a typo? ‘Was typing on my phone, finger hit the wrong number then accidentally pressed send’? It’s not great, makes you look a little ditzy, but I can’t think of how else you can spin wanting to change the number you sent.

  208. minuteye*

    Any thoughts on how to deal diplomatically with changing availability and slow schedulers?

    The situation: a colleague (or sometimes a supervisor) asks for availability in order to schedule a meeting. Since there are multiple people involved, I try to offer as much flexibility as I can when replying. Regularly, however, the person organizing will leave off setting a final time for a long period (say, scheduling 3 weeks out, and then only messaging two days before the meeting).

    Except that in the intervening time, I’ve scheduled other meetings, with people who got back to me more quickly! Sometimes I get lucky, and I’m still available, but sometimes the slot they’ve picked has filled up, and I feel that it looks flaky for me to then reply “Oh no, I said I could do that time, but now I can’t”.

    Is there a polite way to say “That was my availability a month ago when you asked, but no longer”? Or is there a norm I’m missing (like, should I be updating them on my availability in real time)? Or am I overthinking this, and people are not going to be annoyed at all by my late-game revisions to my availability?

    1. Cows go moo*

      You definitely don’t need to update them – if someone doesn’t respond to you in a timely manner it’s perfectly reasonable to have your available slots filled up by the time they do get around to replying. You don’t need to explain or point out their tardiness. “I’m not available at that time any more, how about X date?” is fine.

      If someone has a habit of not getting back to you until much later, you can mention “I’m available at XYZ dates at this stage, if there’s a particular slot you’re aiming for please let me know so I can book that in before it gets filled up with something else!”

    2. FrustrationsAbound*

      You could say something along the lines of: “I apologise, I cannot attend this meeting. I did not hear back from you and have filled that time with other appointments.” And if it’s the same person with the same issue, you could add “Next time, could you please send the invite out sooner?” You can attach a deadline if needed. “I need appointments to be a week in advance.” This is also something you can say to the scheduler on the side: “Hey Bernadette, I’ve been missing a lot of your meetings because I don’t hear back soon enough so I fill the time with other important appointments. Is it possible to send the time sooner than two days so that I can block it off on my calendar?”
      You probably aren’t the only one to have this issue so I wouldn’t think about it too much.

    3. Daisy*

      How are you holding the meeting time blocked on your calendar? I block mine as tentative with a reminder to follow up with the the scheduler so I can release the time or confirm the meeting as soon as possible. And I generally don’t hold blocks of tentative time open for more than a day or two at the most unless the group is large and difficult to schedule. My follow up email to the scheduler is something along the lines of “We blocked 2 hours on Thursday, July 3rd for the conference call with x regarding y. Is the call moving forward as scheduled or can I release that time?”

    4. Weegie*

      I simply say ‘my availability has changed since I initially emailed you. I can offer you X, Y and z times instead. Do let me know if any of those work for you.’ No one ever complains – they know very well it’s their own fault for being slow off the mark!

  209. FrustrationsAbound*

    I had to work this weekend but ended up calling out on an emergency family situation while on vacation. This also caused me to miss my flight across country (no trip insurance). Due to current high flight costs, I ended up driving back home with my parents. (Believe me, being in a car for days and missing a flight adds up to no fun nor a relaxing vacation) My boss told me to find someone who can cover but shot down everyone I brought up. He finally told me to be on call because he had plans that day. And then he kept texting me to ask why I traded days with someone on another day unrelated to what I was doing. I was asked to work on my off day and got another co-worker to cover. The coverage person randomly cancelled because she “forgot” to cover for someone else but none of this was on the calendar. I’m very upset that I had to deal with all of this whole handling a very draining personal situation. Is this something I can bring up to my manager? I have never called out on an emergency but I feel it’s ridiculous to deal with all of these issues while I’m dealing with personal family problems.

    1. Reba*

      Yes, you can definitely bring this up! Based on what you’ve written here, though, I don’t expect a particularly sympathetic response from your boss. But you can bring it up in a collaborative way: “here’s what happened from my POV, how can we ensure time off doesn’t go sideways like this again.”

      Sorry for what you’re dealing with.

    2. WellRed*

      Yes, bring it up! And point out you’ve never called out on emergency. Highlight the ways you are a good employee. Ask what it was he really expected you to do because frankly, he sounds unreasonable (why does he care who covers?).

    3. SunnyD*

      I’m sorry your manager is unreasonable, a bad manager, and deeply lacking in compassion. That would be enough to make me start looking.

      The point of being super reliable is for grace when things go kablooey. Your manager heaped stress on your head when you needed grace. Fork him.

  210. Shayl*

    I had to stand up to a person who is my former boss today. It was so weird, but I’m pretty proud of myself. He was a good boss (to me) when he was my boss, but reorganization has happened and he no longer has any direct reports. The reason for this, I think, is because he tends to make the people he works will feel bad. I avoided this by being a subject matter expert on something he didn’t know much about, but for most others he’s a seagull manager who doesn’t really take much care in what he says or how he criticizes.

    After the re-org I had been leading a project that he had an interest in, but has been low on the participation scale. His time has freed up in the last few weeks, but not enough to review our work or understand what we’ve done. He even said as much in a meeting, while simultaneously criticizing the work we’d done, that he hadn’t actually reviewed or understood.

    I was pretty upset and did some grousing to my new manager, but at the end of the day I decided to just confront him and explain that I felt it was inappropriate for him to appear in a meeting and criticize the team for work he hadn’t even taken time to look at. I recognized that he felt out of the loop, but told him that his response to that was inappropriate and he needed to talk to me or someone on the project directly if he really felt like he needed more information.

    This isn’t something his direct reports have been able to do in the past, even though he has a reputation for ‘seagulling’ on other projects. I really felt after he made the people I am responsible for as a lead feel badly that I had to say something to him directly, and he actually apologized for his behavior!

  211. Dynamo*

    hey guys- i’m working at my dream job and while i love it it’s gotten so damn stressful the past few months that i feel so anxious at work all day long. and the reason is my manager, something must have snapped with her recently cause lately she’s been micromanaging the crap out of us and we are all at our breaking point.

    last weekend she texted me 3 times between 5:55-6:10am which woke me up on a lovely Saturday morning. she sends emails all hours at the night- midnight, 3am etc- about tasks she wants me to do. and here’s the thing, literally NOTHING she’s texting me/emailing me about is important. i work in e-commerce and design websites and the things she’s asking me to do at 5am on a saturday is along the lines of “can you change this one sentence font size from a size 12 to an 11.”

    the rest of the team really wants her to relax a little and stop sending us 30 urgent emails a day when nothing she’s asking is urgent. and i always have to drop my work when she does this in order to fix those little things and then my work gets backed up and she constantly expects us to be ahead of our work when it’s impossible. i feel like she’s expecting us to be more like her who works like 70hrs a week (no overtime pay) and i refuse to give up my life like that.

    any advice on handling micromanagers?

    1. Nacho*

      First thing I would do is schedule the do-not disturb mode on your phone for 21:00-7:00, maybe more like 21:00 to 10:00 on the weekend. That’ll stop those early morning texts from waking you up.

      1. WellRed*

        Maybe also schedule “out-of-office” return texts. I agree with the comment that this is not your dream job. I wonder what’s happened to make your boss start acting like this?

        1. Dynamo*

          ever since her manager came back from maternity leave she’s been like this. they’re really close but it’s like those two have a running competition to who can point out more things to fix on the website no matter how small the problem is.

          as far as dream job goes- it really was for a while. i truly love what i do but it sucks when one person can really cause you to start hating your job, even when everything else is going great.

    2. LGC*

      First of all, I hate to tell you that this is not your dream job. It might be what you really want to do, but your boss sounds ANNOYING.

      Honestly, I’d get clarification. She might have really poor boundaries, but they don’t have to be your boundaries. She might be like my boss and flag every team message as important (regardless of its actual importance). A simple, “if I’m out of the office, when do you expect me to have things done?” should work.

      And she might not expect you to work the crazy hours she does – she’s likely sending things out as she thinks of them. Even if it’s at 5:55 on a Saturday morning.

      (Managers, remember to give both directions AND DEADLINES.)

      1. Reba*

        Yes, it sounds like she’s texting you when she should be keeping a list of these things to deliver to you in a few emails. (ANNOYING AF)

        Definitely worth a conversation, and maybe a friendly heads up, “I’m keeping my phone off during X hours for my health, please expect a response when I’m on the clock!”

      2. Dynamo*

        it was a dream job for a while, everything was great and then her manager came back from maternity leave and all they do is pick apart every small detail of the site and fix it over and over again. when they’re not managers they are really fun people but boy is it going annoying.

        and i completely think you’re right about her just sending these things out as she thinks of them. one email she sent me last week at 3:30am literally started with “I just thought of this, can you ____.” and it blew my mind that she JUST thought of something to fix at that hour!

        i do think a conversation needs to be had and i wonder if someone else will get to it before i do but for now i’m getting into the habit of stop responding to those late night emails if it’s something that can definitely wait until i’m in the office.

        1. Arts Akimbo*

          In my experience, people who do that nitpick-any-little-tiny-thing bit are desperately trying to prove themselves useful to the organization. “LOOK AT ME!!! I AM DOING WORK!” their actions seem to shout. Sounds like somebody(-ies) feels insecure about their job.

        2. LGC*

          In general, I think you shouldn’t worry too much (and definitely keep setting good email boundaries – for your sake). People are odd – I think even Alison is a night owl and she’s talked about scaring people by sending emails at odd hours. So by ALL MEANS, get clarification on what expected turnaround is, both during regular work hours and outside regular work hours.

          It sounds like whatever is going on, it’s with your line of management and not you. And it might actually be your boss’s boss (or higher) that is leaning on her – would you be able to ask how things are going?

          Finally…I was a little snarky, but seriously – maybe I’m reading into this, but I don’t want you to feel like you have to put up with this or jump through hoops because you’re doing what you love as your job. Personally, I think your dream job should make you feel respected and valued, and right now it seems like that might be missing.

          1. Dynamo*

            no i appreciate your help! i know the director of our department has a tendency to scan the website and find errors all of us has missed. she then tells the next manager who then tells my manager and i think at that point they are just stressed out and thus when the tasks get sent to me it’s not in the best headspace.

            another thing i just did actually was block out time in my work schedule each day for some peace. i’m going to make it a priority everyday to not be glued to my desk and just find some time to relax a little so that those emails don’t trigger so much anxiety.

            i know the dream job bit is a stretch. the job i had before this was one so toxic i ended up only being there for 7 weeks. this job -the pay, benefits, culture- is lightning times better than that one and it’s a well known company i’ve always wanted to work for. but that also doesn’t mean i should be ok with this current situation making me so unhappy. so i’ll do what i can to try to ease the tension and not feel like i’m at their mercy 24/7!

    3. SunnyD*

      The only thing that I found that worked with him was to simply be upbeatly unyielding with a chirp of “It’s really important for me to have work-life balance”. I expected a lot more push back that I got, but by that point I also was completely done with him, and had options, so I didn’t really care if he thought that was reasonable or not. I was surprised that he seemed to find “work-life balance” to be as authoritative as he apparently did.
      Website design? That stuff can WAIT till work hours. Only you can enforce you’re boundaries (pleasantly, upbeat, and with the attitude that of course they will be reasonable).

  212. just a random teacher*

    I actually got my grades turned in on the last school day for students! I’m pretty sure I’ve never done that before – I’m usually running right up to the ragged edge of disaster in terms of when grades are due. I still need to organize my workspace and do some other assorted end-of-year tasks, but THE GRADES ARE IN! Hah!

    1. I hate coming up with usernames*

      Yayyyyy you! My school required us to finalize grades by the morning of the last day of school (which was a half day) and turn in our keys by 3:30. So I’m completely done but that day was absolute madness!

  213. WonderingHowIGotIntoThis*

    I have to quit my job. I’ve just had a week’s leave and (stupidly, I know) gave a quick glance at my email to prepare me for returning and my boss has put me in for a meeting at 9am! And another at 10am! How am I supposed to prep for these meetings? How (other than the fact I’m stupid enough to be checking my work email while still technically on leave) am I supposed to know I’m even *in* these meetings if I haven’t had the time to actually read my emails?!
    It’s gotten so bad that work got mentioned, in a vague tangent, on the journey home and I had a full blown panic attack on the motorway at 70mph.
    I have to quit my job for the sake of my mental health.

    Any suggestions for how I approach the “meeting first thing when I won’t have had time to read my emails” – especially given that I had blocked my diary out for “return to work tasks”, which my manager has just ignored/overridden?

    1. WellRed*

      I’d approach it as though I’d been out of the loop (because, vacation) and that the boss wanted to loop me in as well as giving me some things to prioritize.

    2. Reba*

      I’m inclined to say just don’t prepare, go to the meetings and in a friendly tone, say “I don’t know, I just found out about this meeting at 8 am! What are we doing?” But of course I have no idea what these are about and what your role is…. Sorry, this really sucks. I think many people here are familiar with the acute dread on Sunday afternoon about going back in to work. Good luck starting your job search!

  214. Batgirl*

    I’m feeling horribly guilty about getting a co-worker fired whilst also getting strong ‘get out of dodge’ vibes from above.
    I’ve known from the get-go this place is dysfunctional but have been seduced by how much they love me, some perks and a great immediate boss.
    I teach, but recently they needed a scribe to help SEN students in their exams.
    So this student and I are concentrating hard on the test when I hear shouting from the room next door where my class is being covered.
    My class is a handful sometimes, but I can’t hear a peep out of the students. Just the teacher. It goes on and on.
    We reach a point where my student wants to tackle some bits independently, so I take a peek through some posters on the window into next door. Students are sitting with impeccable body language, working hard. Why the yelling?
    After I sit back down it starts up. One male student is sneeringly called ‘a little girl’, another is called ‘thick, you’ve always been thick since y7!’
    After the exam, I go to find my TA. Did I really hear that? Yes and there’s more. Her student, whom she scribes for (it’s his legal right to be supported in this way) was sneered at for not doing his ‘own work’. “We have to report it” I say. It’s a legal duty; but we’re both terrified because she’s an agency worker and the teacher in question has been here since time immemorial.
    Long story short, they’ve gotten rid of my TA. Budget reasons. Bullshit. They pay her pennies and she does the work of ten. She’s an amazing TA and her students are devastated. The teacher is still going strong, even after an incident where she threw a chair at a student for not having a pen. Yeah that actually happened. My boss has been criticised for making too big a deal out of the incident I overheard. Now we all have meetings on Monday to ensure we all know the staff code of conduct?!

    1. Reba*

      Oh my god. “Budget reasons” such a transparent cop out, since they legally have to have her services, it can’t be budgeted out! I can’t believe (read: sadly, can) they are protecting a clearly abusive teacher!

      Would you consider whistleblowing or going to a reporter for your local media? you can contact them anonymously using an app like Signal.

      You did not “get” her fired. Your totally unethical higher ups fired her against decency and sense.

      1. Batgirl*

        Logically and intellectually I know this. But not only is my job totally safe, everyone continues to treat me well while she was given the cut direct for weeks by all of Horrid Teacher’s cliquey mates. I’m dying to use my apparent (and baffling) power to say “Actually it was my idea to report it” but I know I can’t breach confidentiality the way that Horrid Teacher obviously has.

        Whistleblowing; Absolutely. I’m going to (my legal duty hasn’t gone anywhere) and so is former colleague. She’s on her agency’s Guaranteed to Work list so she’s OK.

        Meantime I’m spinning. I don’t know how to approach this Monday meeting.

    2. Who Plays Backgammon?*

      THREW A CHAIR AT A STUDENT? Am I totally green to ask why this wasn’t viewed as an assault, an attack, and a police matter?

      1. Batgirl*

        The kids family could have done that, but I’m told he has a chaotic home life which might have something to do with why they haven’t. His mum called up to yell at us though.
        Most people would take their kid out but he’s one of those kids other schools don’t want.

      2. WellRed*

        I’m confused, too. I also don’t understand why, when the horrible teacher was heard bullying a student and other shouting it wasn’t addressed in the moment.

          1. valentine*

            By you going next door and telling the teacher to stop abusing your class. I was hoping it was her who got fired.

            The TA is better off not away from the all-round abuse, including the pittance and gaslighting. You’re not responsible for the choice to fire her.

            1. Batgirl*

              You don’t deal with safeguarding matters personally.

              I went next door as soon as the GCSE exam was over (I think luckily my exam student wasnt really listening and he did well enough to graduate) and relieved her because, yeah, it needed to stop and as yet, I had no idea of what the real context was of what I had just heard. I tried to get details of how she felt the class had gone for the upcoming investigation. She seemed to think it had all gone swimmingly.

              Then we reported her immediately to the safeguarding lead, who is our boss. We were expecting immediate suspension but that never happened.

              1. Batgirl*

                “TA is better off not away from the all-round abuse, including the pittance and gaslighting.”

                That is pretty much word for word what I said to her! “You’re better off out of it!”

                Meantime I have this baffling meeting to prepare for. Do I pull them on the progress of the investigation? Smile politely and save it all for the whistleblowing procedure? I’m pretty sure they’re going to give us all a share of my colleague’s work too and I want to tell them to stuff it.

  215. I hate coming up with usernames*

    The school year is officially over! But oh man, it has not been without some bumps at the end. A coworker’s contact wasn’t renewed. And honestly, that’s for the best – their class was completely out of control. It was sometimes hard for me to teach because you could hear screaming and things hitting the wall from next door. I’d go over to check it out and find the teacher sitting at their desk completely ignoring the situation. Same group of kids would (mostly) follow the rules in my room. I’ve heard the students comment that this teacher doesn’t care about them, doesn’t really teach, etc. But I still feel badly for them – being fired is never fun. But the situation got more awkward when the teacher showed up to the end of the year celebration and basically wanted to just cry to a few of us the whole time.

    I’m still getting parent emails about grades, which have been finalized and report cards are in the mail. Gotta love it when you try all year to get in touch with a parent about their teen, and they wait until you’re on vacation and the year is over to start blowing up your email with messages.

    And I got a bit of extra money thrown on top of our standard 3% raise! So that was nice. Just waiting for next week when I’ll find out what grades and electives I’m getting for next year.

    1. WellRed*

      I have no sympathy for her. What did she think was going to happen if she didn’t do her job? It’s even worse that it impacted kids? She has zero business being a teacher.

  216. Robbie*

    Gripe of the week: I hate New York City in the summer.

    Well, that’s not exactly right. I love New York. I love the diversity, history and how I don’t need a car. What I hate is rude tourists and the people who disrupt everyone else’s day by trying to take advantage of tourists who don’t know any better.

    Last night when I was leaving work, I nearly got hit in the face by some guy who was spinning his girlfriend around, so their friend could get a video of it. Literally a foot in front of the door to my job. The guy then ran after me and yelled at me. I work in an extremely unremarkable office building, and it isn’t even next to any major points of interest.

    Gonna start working from home!

    1. Who Plays Backgammon?*

      I hear ya. I lived in a major city for years, and woe is me, I worked weekends. There’d be practically no one else in the train station, but if there were tourists, they’d come at me as if part of my duty as a resident of the city was to provide train directions to wherever they wanted to go. Hey, there are maps and information booths for that. Living there didn’t mean you knew every site and attraction. I still remember the asshead who got sarcastic with me when I couldn’t give him directions. I didn’t know the place he wanted to go! I hope he got lost for hours.

      Frequent scenario: Middle-aged husband and wife huddled confusedly looking at city map or guidebook, glancing at me as I wait for train. Wife timidly but courteously approaches me for help. I provide info if I know it. She tells husband. He looks at her like she’s an idiot and swaggers to me and asks the same question. I repeat what I told wife, and I’m not nice to him. Take your disrespect elsewhere, dude.

      1. 653-CXK*

        The best tourists, in my humble opinion, are the ones who know what they’re doing and only ask for help if they’re really lost.

        The really bad tourists are the ones who march right up to you as if you have “Information” flashing on your chest. “I’m sorry, I don’t know” is probably the best answer; and if they get obnoxious, I’m far less willing to help them out (to the point where I simply walk away).

    2. MsRedPanda*

      I live in NYC too and I understand! Last week I think everyone was on vacation and my train ride went so well. Now it’s like everyone has flooded back including the tourist’s and it really does make commuting and some streets unbearable.

      1. Robbie*

        The weird thing about it is when it happens on some random street. I get why someone would want to take photos at the MoMA, Brooklyn Bridge, or any one of literally a thousand other places.

        When someone decides they need to block some random street to get a bunch of photos of their SO or friend posing in the middle of the sidewalk, what is going through their heads? Then they have the nerve to get all offended when people keep walking by, as if there aren’t tens of thousands of people walking down that one street to get to work or get home every day.

    3. Reliquary*

      My commute home from work on public transportation, especially during the summer, is made rather unpleasant by hordes of tourists going to events at locations along my train route home. It sucks. Yesterday, the out-of-towners were all going to a certain concert, and not only were they really crowding the train, but a bunch of them smelled absolutely terrible!

      I love living in this city, but summers on the train can sometimes be a real challenge!

  217. I Ate Your Eclair*

    After a year at an organization with serious issues that are not being recognized*, I accepted a better job at a better company. Though I prepped hard w/ AMA before announcing my resignation, Old Company took it horribly and any motivation I had left to match make between potential candidates and OC evaporated somewhere during the days of silent treatment from the team, project successor lying to undermine me, and the director trying to get a refund from the original 3P recruiter. It was really hard to stay pleasant, professional, and stick to the talking point of, “I’ve enjoyed working here” and “I’m only leaving because an amazing opportunity came up,” but I mostly managed. I’ve only said good things about the company and its employees to partners and contractors during my contact with them to announce my departure. I’ve tried to find real positives to focus on, but it wasn’t easy.

    My question is, now that I’m goooone, how do I drop this diplomatic pose while remaining appropriate? Based on past experience (this is a position requiring a fairly uncommon advanced skill and also, I’m somewhat high-profile due to my work in an adjacent skill area), it’s likely that I’ll be contacted on LinkedIn by casual acquaintances and strangers interested in working at Old Company. Do I just dodge the subject of the Old Company until enough time has passed that I can beg obsolescence? Also, is there any upside to NOT ignoring the inevitable contact from at least one of the horrible ex-coworkers once they figure out I’m at a company with a well-deserved reputation for being a great place to work?

    *There’s objective evidence for this in form of turnover rate.

    1. GreyNerdShark*

      late but hey…

      If you are contacted by people who want to work there just say “I don’t work there anymore so I can’t help you”. You owe them no more than that. If it is someone who you want to keep in well with for some reason you might add “I’m happier where I am now”.

      As for co-workers, if they are people you don’t care for or don’t know then again you owe them nothing. No upside to keeping contact with horrible people.

      1. I Ate Your Eclair*

        Excellent advice. I really like both of the responses you suggested because they’re neither evasive nor passive-aggressive.

        And as for the horrible ex-coworkers…yeah, I guess not. I’m a woman who’s spent the last decade working in male-dominated fields/organizations in a country where women (particularly if my ethnicity) are noticeably still treated as lesser in many workplaces. The result is that I’ve had to work pretty hard (but often failed) to create and maintain a cordial professional relationship with coworkers, and I hesitate to burn more bridges.

  218. Where's My Boss?*

    I’m job hunting and my resume for my current job is difficult. I’ve been w/ the company for quite a few years. In my first position, I had numerous projects above and beyond my job description. I moved to “up” to another job, but the day-to-day responsibilities were a giant step back and down. Our new top management downgraded our titles, and now wants office staff to spend half their time telemarketing. (Guess why I’m leaving?)

    I have a few things to list as accomplishments, but what’s the best way to present myself as having high-level skills and capabilities when I’ve hardly used them in years and can’t demonstrate much growth/learning in years that would be useful to a new employer?

  219. MsRedPanda*

    I currently work as an Admin Assistant for a non profit and there is going to be an opening for Director of Food and Beverages soon. I spoke to my boss and asked if I could be considered for this role as I have been wanting to do more. My current role is very slow paced and I feel like a glorified phone operator more than an assistant to the gm.

    I’ve interviewed already and I’m just so nervous because my gm has mentioned that I am very valuable where I am at. He said I am capable of being the director of food and beverages but he is unsure of letting me move on. He is worried about who will take over my role which included handling payroll. My worry now is that IF I don’t get this promotion I’m going to feel like it’s because he does not want to lose me where I am at and not so much because I am not qualified. I know that is a bit silly but it is bugging me so much! Am I just over thinking this?

    1. Who Plays Backgammon?*

      I think your boss has given you reason to be concerned, SAYING he’s “unsure of letting you move on.”

          1. Who Plays Backgammon?*

            Some joke. Like he’d lasso you to the chair?

            How did your interview go? In your organization, would you only be allowed to be promoted if your current boss said yes? So bad bosses can prevent an employee’s advancement?

      1. MsRedPanda*

        It’s a mess of a place sometimes. If it comes up I think I am just about at the point of letting him know that. He mentioned to me that there is the possibility of there being an opening for him to have a Personal Assistant, but I have not expressed any interest in that nor do I want that role. It is something I’m pretty sure he wants me to take on though as he’s mentioned before that he thinks I’d be good at that too. I’m trying to work up though and that doesn’t feel like a promotion for me. Along with payroll, I cover for the bookkeeper – just doing some stuff like invoices, accounts payable/receivable and, making checks.

  220. Mellow*

    Hello – I am an academic librarian busily putting together a slide presentation for students, and, for those, I’d like to use some of the example names that I find here that are wildly hilarious, along the lines of Fergus, Bippy Hornswoggler, etc. I’ve been lurking for about a year, but only occasionally comment, so I’m kind of new here still, and was wondering if anyone reading this would like to share favorite fictitious names found here (or any you happen to like from wherever). I’m a serious, uncreative type and so truly need the help. Thanks in advance!

    1. Bismuth*

      It seems like it’s safest to use names everyone would recognize as fake — Monica, Phoebe, and Rachel, or Spock, Kirk, and Worf. Some people might think it’s too cutesy and distracting to use something wild; you want them concentrating on the material, not the names.

      1. Mellow*

        “It seems like it’s safest to use names everyone would recognize as fake…you want them concentrating on the material, not the names.”

        ——————-

        I didn’t indicate I was looking for coaching and guidance on the presentation itself – because I’m not. This particular presentation calls for exactly what I’ve requested: “…favorite fictitious names found here.”

        Sheesh…

    2. Reliquary*

      P.G. Wodehouse’s stories about Bertie and Jeeves are treasure troves of hilarious names. A sampling:
      Augustus “Gussie” Fink-Nottle
      Hildebrand “Tuppy” Glossop
      Cora “Corky” Potter-Pirbright

      I also enjoy the gender-neutral names that Daniel Mallory Ortberg invents for his “Dear Prudence” advice column. I can’t think of any offhand, but they’re portmanteaus like Josipher, Elizifred, Bartholowina, Cynthgomery.

  221. She makes my heart flutter*

    Is it inherently a conflict of interest for a newspaper reporter to date an elected official? It’s in a small, rural county and the official in question is at the county level, if it matters. The reporter occasionally (maybe once or twice a month at most) covers goings-on in the official’s office/department but mostly has a different beat, and those assignments could probably be given to another reporter instead.

    (The reporter is me. I have a flirtationship kind of thing going on with the official but haven’t made a REAL move because I’m worried about impropriety. And also shy.)

    1. WellRed*

      You really can’t covers the goings-on if you are dating, but I don’t think it’s inherently a conflict of interest.

      1. valentine*

        It’s inherently a conflict of interest.

        Wouldn’t your paper have to disclose the relationship whenever your colleagues report on her?

        Is this a small enough place where no one will say she’s “Literally in bed with the press”?

    2. Batgirl*

      If the assignments could be given to another reporter, then I would. That’s quite a serious conflict of interest and you want to be able to say you have nothing to do with political stories if readers, a competitor or your employer calls you on it. Is your title that of a beat reporter or do you have another specialism? If you can point to yourself and say ‘I’m the Health Reporter’ or ;I’m Totally Different Beat Reporter’ that mitigates this a lot.

      This would have been a big deal in one of my old newsrooms for quite a different reason. I know for a fact I would have been gently leaned on to get stories backchannelled from my new boyfriend. But that’s probably because the place was a trash fire which had no boundaries. In that type of situation I’d go with disclosing “I’m dating SOMEONE in elected official’s department and I want to kept far away from those stories so I’m not accused of impropriety”. Editors do care about the appearance of that. Then if you get any shady requests you can just play dumb about his not knowing unpublished info, as though he is too small a fish to know.

    3. Rez123*

      We’ve had a situation where a political correspondent starred dating a member of parliament. That was quite a big deal since it’s a national level legislator and the journalist was in the biggest publication. In that case the journalist had to move to non political journalism.

      I’d say since it is local level politics then disclosing your relationship at work and someone else covering the stories is perfectly sufficient. Depending on the type of political position, your boss may have to disclose it in the article etc. But honestly, it really can be that nobody cares if it’s local and only written about monthly.

      Good luck!

  222. June*

    A friend of mine did a lot of short term contracts (like 2 weeks or less) at various companies several times a year (it’s the norm in this industry) for the same job. She’s having a hard time putting it into a resume because unlike the rest of her peers she did not have an agency, so if she were to list all these contracts her resume would be 20 miles long. At the same time, if she were to slim it down to certain contracts, it makes look like she’s been out of work for awhile between them.

    At the moment, she has it written like this.
    Title (Contract): Date A – Date B
    Various Companies: Company A, Company B, Company C, and Company D
    Description here mentioning that they were short term contracts with the job description.

    Thoughts?

    1. Analytical Tree Hugger*

      This might be industry-specific. What your friend is doing seems fine to me, though maybe “Contractor” instead of “Contract”?

    2. Miss Pantalones en Fuego*

      What about just combining them under a heading like “Llama Milker (fixed term contracts)” with the date range of when she was doing this? Was it continuous (like one job ends, then the next begins the next week) or are there gaps when she did something else?

  223. Happy Dancing all the way to the bank*

    A bit of happiness: After being off work for three months (I quit an increasingly toxic job with no notice, which though freeing emotionally probably wasn’t the wisest decision professionally) and applying for too many jobs to count, I finally got hired. Much to my amusement, I got the voicemail while I was meeting with a recruiter for a temp agency, so after I got back to my car and listened to it I went right back inside and said nevermind.

    The new job pays SO MUCH better than my old job, and though it’s not exactly what I’m looking for, it’s a foot in the door to a very large organization that has other roles I’m interested in and may eventually be able to transfer to.

    The funniest part is that out of the 15 or so jobs I’ve interviewed for while being off work, I was CERTAIN that I wouldn’t get this one, because they seemed to want someone with highly teapot-specific experience, whereas mine is with electric kettles.

  224. Rez123*

    You know the feeling when you find an interesting job. It’s only 22min train journey. All good. Then you decide to hunt down the more specific address of the office and suddenly your 22min train commute turns into 22min train, 1 mile walk, 45min bus and another mile walk. Grrr.

  225. Retail*

    Question that I have to answer regularly – I have to work in restricted yet tempting areas at times. Some of them do not have gates so the only way in is climbing the fence (with varying levels of dignity).

    What’s the best timing on a busy day so children don’t notice too much? Today I’d wait a bit for the crowd to move before hopping.

    “How did she get in there?” “She got in there because she works here,” said the quick thinking mom when I was in a very attractive and dangerous spot.

    1. valentine*

      The timing may not matter if you wear a high-vis vest. A hardhat would not go amiss, either. Bonus if you can take a stepstool or a (rope?) ladder, even as a prop. Basically, if you look the part, even if you do need to struggle over the fence, people will assume you belong there and pay you less mind.

      1. Retail*

        My coworkers would roast me forever if i tried that outfit! It seems like overkill for raking leaves or pulling weeds.

        Also my ego precludes a stool or ladder and frankly I am getting better at climbing fences, truly a transferable skill if I ever leave for office work.

        They do assume I belong there if they register my presence although I did pop out from some trees yesterday and scare someone.

        My concern of sorts is less looking like I belong there and being seen going over a fence by curious children. One girl asked what I was doing and then when I told her, she ran closer to me and said “I can climb!” Thanks for the offer to help sweetie, but no.

      2. Retail*

        Also y’all shoot for disguised workplaces so I cannot imagine where you think I work.

        Let’s just say there are no llamas which is kind of surprising.

        1. Miss Pantalones en Fuego*

          I’m thinking landscaping at a mall or shopping centre. Maybe only as an occasional duty.

          I’m so used to everybody and their brother wearing high vis in the UK that I wouldn’t probably notice. High vis = supposed to be there in a restricted area. (which works well for criminals, I imagine!).

  226. Bruiser Woods*

    Has anyone been made to feel incompetant at work through workplace bullying? How can you tell you are truly incompetant or being set up to fail, or complaints about your colleagues are justified or just to undermine you?

    1. Ron McDon*

      Yes, about 20 years ago.

      I worked for a director of a company as a PA. His previous PA and he had not got on well, and I thought it was down to her not doing a good job – she appeared to be quite incompetent and it seemed she made lots of mistakes.

      I switched to working for him with great enthusiasm, lots of systems in place so that we wouldn’t have the misunderstandings he’d had with his previous PA, and a couple of years worth of impeccable annual reviews.

      Within a year I had a nervous breakdown and end up having to leave my job.

      I did not know that he was an alcoholic, and he enjoyed belittling and gaslighting his PAs. He would do it when just the two of us were in his office, so no-one else heard what went on, and did it in such a way that it completely knocked my confidence.

      I was in my early 20s and it was my first office job. I wouldn’t put up with being treated like that now, but at the time I felt that it must all be true; that I was not as clever as other people had thought, that I was getting lots of stuff wrong, and that I was really bad at my job.

      Had I discussed what was happening with my superiors I think they would have helped stop it, but people who are bullies are usually very good at making their victim feel ashamed, and that their complaints/concerns are valid.

      I now know that I was not incompetent, but at the time I really believed it. I think the only way you can tell if you are incompetent or being bullied is to ask advice from someone in a position of authority whom you trust to be honest with you.

      I am sorry if this is happening to you.

      My advice now to someone going through this at work would be to get out as soon as possible – I have never recovered in terms of my emotions and confidence, and my career has absolutely suffered.

    2. Not So NewReader*

      A few ideas:

      Have you had this problem before? Have you had this problem to this degree before?

      What is the nature of their complaints? “The staple needs to be 5/8ths inches from the top of the paper and 1/2 inch in from the side.” These are called BS complaints.

      How do they get along with each other? Do you hear lots of snark between them?

      What do you know about the employee turn over rate?

      Do you know how your position became open? Do you know why the previous person left?

      Can you ever please these people? If you make the corrections they ask for, are they happy or are they still complaining?

      On being set to fail: Are you given the info needed to do your job? Is anyone teaching you or is anyone available if you have questions?
      If you ask a question can you trust the answer you get?

      How’s your boss? Do people roll their eyes at him when his back is turned?

      Just stuff to think about. My best suggestion is to google “characteristics of a work place bully”. Read a couple different sites so you get a good feel for what to look for.

  227. Lx in Canada*

    Late and random, but whatever. It’s pretty weird when you get to the point where you realize you need a challenge at work and others, well, don’t want one. I got a new position in my agency that involves analyzing documents and writing reports, occasionally making phone calls, and it’s really interesting! Lots of research and going in-depth. A lot of people I tell about it, though, kind of go, “…Ewwwww.” Especially people from my old department, where I was bored to death. I am finding it somewhat discouraging but I have to remember it’s not about me.

    (Secretly they all seem to be fairly miserable. The old department was kind of a miserable place, to be quite honest. I like my new department and started enjoying going to work a lot more when I started here.)

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