open thread – June 7-8, 2019

by Alison Green on June 7, 2019

It’s the Friday open thread! The comment section on this post is open for discussion with other readers on anything work-related that you want to talk about. If you want an answer from me, emailing me is still your best bet*, but this is a chance to talk to other readers.

* If you submitted a question to me recently, please do not repost it here, as it may be in my queue to answer.

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  1. Anonymous Educator*

    When you’ve gotten job offers for positions you know you want (and no offer from another place at the same time), do you still ask for a day or two to think about it (maybe talk it over with a spouse or close friend), or do you just take the offer? Reasons?

    1. LSP*

      I think if you’ve already considered everything they are offering (salary, benefits, PTO, etc.) there’s no reason to stall on accepting, but I think there is almost no reason to not ask to get back to them in a day or two. No reasonable employer is going to balk at that, so you might as well take a beat to make sure the offer is hitting everything you want.

    2. Lucy*

      Why not? Why be coy? Accept subject to package and conditions, and start negotiations – the finer details of those might warrant discussion with spouse/family/close friends.

      I’m really glad you’re in this position! Hurrah!

      1. Anonymous Educator*

        I’m not in this position yet, but I may be. So I just want to be prepared on whether I should ask for time to think or just accept it (if they offer).

    3. Fortitude Jones*

      I still ask for a day or two. They don’t need to know they’re my only option, lol. Not only that, it’s usually at the offer stage that I get full benefit info, and I need time to compare those to the ones I already have.

      1. Windchime*

        This is how I am, too. I need a little time to think and compare. Unless I was (theoretically) offered a ton of money and 8 weeks vacation and the best insurance ever, I would give it a day or two.

    4. (Mr.) Cajun2core*

      Unless for some reason you really did have to speak to your significant other about it, I would just go ahead and accept the job. I have done that.

    5. Eeyore's missing tail*

      I’ve accepted jobs like that the same day before. But, my now-husband and I were already on the same page about both positions (we were living together for one and married for the other), so it made sense for me to accept without discussing it with him.

      1. Eeyore's missing tail*

        I should add that both positions were in the same company, so I was already familiar with the benefits package.

    6. Silver Fig*

      I always ask for time. I request paperwork on the full reimbursement package (salary, bonus, retirement, health care, PTO, sick leave, tuition, anything else) and a day or two so I can pore over what the offer is as a whole, and then counteroffer. I never accept the first number.

      If the potential company offers you full information disclosure on the first try and a mind-blowing salary, I guess technically you could argue there’s no reason not to just accept immediately, but I’ve never seen that happen.

    7. theletter*

      I always ask for 24 hours to sleep on it, just in case I realize something at 3am.

      1. Caroline*

        +1 I’m just the type who needs time to digest and will realize something in the middle of the night.

    8. Adric*

      I would say that a day or two to think about a major life decision (such as a new job) is hardly ever amiss. Presumably you have been concentrating on getting the offer, and (much like the dog chasing the car) may not have fully considered just what it will mean when you get it.

      On the other hand, the whole point of the interview process is for you and the employer to feel each other out and get to a point where you’re both confident that you’re a match. If you both get there at the same time, that hardly seems like a problem.

      I would argue against doing it just for “gamesmanship”. If you have legitimate things to consider, then sure consider them and take the time you need for that. Otherwise, I wouldn’t want to start a new job from a standpoint of us both trying to put one over on each other.

      Bottom line, I’d say either way is fine, as long as you’re doing it with integrity and confidence.

    9. That Would be a Good Band Name*

      I’ve always taken the position pretty much immediately. I’ve already thought it over and talked it to death with my spouse by the time an employer is getting ready to make an offer. I have baselines and as long as they hit the $$ and other benefits that I have decided are my must haves then I’ll accept.

      1. Anonymous Educator*

        I’ve already thought it over and talked it to death with my spouse by the time an employer is getting ready to make an offer.

        Thanks. This is kind of where I am.

        1. just a random teacher*

          If this is in a school on the American academic year, this time of year it’s best to take as little time as you can be comfortable with to make a decision. Everyone’s trying to wrap things up and go home for summer, so being able to accept quickly is helpful if you’re comfortable doing it. (I’ve gotten teaching jobs in August before where they definitely wanted to know right then, because they needed to get the ball rolling on paperwork/onboarding stuff ASAP so that I could get access to things and start planning my year.)

          This is in a unionized environment where I’ve generally researched salary and benefits as soon as they call me for an interview, though (and at the interview, I ask the position-specific working conditions questions like which classes do they think this position will be likely to teach). There’s very little negotiation involved in the actual job offer at that point, just confirming which things count for what on their salary placement grid. (Some districts count all graduate level credits toward salary placement and others count only those you took after getting your teaching license, for example. This is usually spelled out in the contract, which is often posted on their public website, in which case I generally read it before interviewing.)

      2. Junior High Teacher*

        This is me, too. The last job I accepted is a 3-minute commute from my house, is the school my kids will eventually attend, and there’s nothing to negotiate when you have a union contract (for good and for bad). It is a perfect position for me, and I didn’t need to think it over any more.

        Also, I think enthusiastically accepting a job immediately (assuming you already know the details and so forth) gains a certain amount of goodwill from your boss. That’s just a nice perk, though.

        1. Dontlikeunfairrules*

          So incredibly jealous of your 3-minute commute. That’s my dream.

          Just had to say that.

          My job would be pretty close to perfection if I had a 3-minute commute. Or even a 13-minute commute. But I knew it would be a 25-40 minute drive (yet under 9 miles, distance-wise….that’s good old Los Angeles traffic for ya) when I signed up so I don’t complain. But if I DID have the ability to change one thing, my commute would be it.

          Sorry for being off topic.,

    10. Midge*

      I have done this and have no regrets. I live in a bit of a job desert, and was very ready to move on from my previous employer/position. Everything about the new job and employer was a step up, pretty much. I didn’t have to worry about health insurance affordability because I’m insured through my husband and his employer. (And how messed up is it that this has to be a consideration for anybody…) There was no point in me playing coy and asking for time. Easy yes that meant I got to give notice sooner and start sooner than if I took time I didn’t need to think about it.

    11. ceiswyn*

      I take it.

      In general, by the offer stage, I’ve already had as much thinking/talking time as I need for a single position; I have a good idea of the job, and a pretty good idea of what overall package would make it worth it for me.

      If I’m interviewing at multiple places, I’m pretty honest with them; I say that I’m talking to other companies and would like the time to make sure I’m making the right decision.

      Their reaction to that tells me a lot about the employer. An employer who would rather push me into accepting their offer and risk my changing my mind later, maybe even after starting work, is an employer with terrible judgement who I don’t want to work for.

    12. EtherIther*

      Usually I’m either moving or leaving a job upon having a new one, so there’s details worth thinking about. But I’m always a believer in taking a day to think about things. Never hurts, helps me feel better about the decision after. That might not be as helpful for others, though!

    13. Just Elle*

      I try never to accept it on the spot / on the phone. Mostly because you want to wait for the offer letter to come through and make sure whats on paper matches what you heard on the phone. And also because, its a huge life decision and even one hour makes a big difference in taking a moment to process. Its not like taking an hour is going to hurt anything but it could save you.

      That said, I don’t play coy with them either, I’ll say “I’m really excited about this offer! To be honest you are far and away my first choice. Would you mind if I wait until the formal offer comes through and officially accept via email?”

      1. ThatGirl*

        Yeah, I’m with you – I want to make sure the details line up with what I’ve been told, no bait and switch, and get everything in writing. It wasn’t quite the same but I had a temp job I was ready to take based on the high hourly rate and then they came back and told me the real rate was $10/hr lower.

      2. Anonymous Educator*

        Yes, a “provided everything looks good when written down” clause makes perfect sense, even if you sound like you’re orally agreeing to it.

    14. Lucette Kensack*

      Do you actually have all the information you need? I’ve never had that happen — even when I was 100% certain that I wanted the job, I wanted to kick the tires of the offer before I confirmed my acceptance. (I’ve never had an org give me details on benefits — for example, the employee cost for their health care premiums) without prompting.

      Or, is there anything you want to ask about or negotiate (even if you would accept the job whether or not you get what you ask for)? I’m not talking about the obvious stuff, but things like: making sure you can take a couple of days off in your first month for your sister’s wedding; confirming where you will be sitting; negotiating the ability to leave at 4 on Tuesdays so you can make it to your favorite spin class.

      It sounds like you’re a teacher and so perhaps these kinds of details are spelled out in the contract. Otherwise, make sure you’re thinking about these things.

      1. ceiswyn*

        If these things are important to me, I ask about them when I’m interviewing the company.

    15. Canuck Library Employee*

      I accepted my job in the phone call it was offered. But it was a union job and there was no negotiation – the position, its duties, and compensation were all clearly spelled out in the contract. I was also a temp there so I was very familiar with the work and culture. I was not actively looking for a job other than at this workplace. So in a case where there are no unknowns (not even unknown unknowns!), I don’t see a point in asking for more time if you’re not actually going to use it.

    16. Lilysparrow*

      If you have already figured out your “strike price” in terms of salary & benefits package, and they clearly meet or exceed it, sure, go ahead.

      If there are pro’s and cons, or part of the offer is not quite in the zone you wanted, then take time to review it. A significant deficit in PTO, healthcare, or retirement funds is going to affect you long after your enthusiasm for the role has worn off.

      1. Lilysparrow*

        And like others upthread, if we’re clearly at a final interview/offer stage, I would have already discussed the change extensively with my husband. I might do a quick check-in call, but that’s it. I could do that in the lobby.

        If we weren’t anticipating an offer yet, I would take a day to discuss it.

    17. Cascadia*

      I don’t necessarily wait for the sake of waiting, but like many other people have pointed out, I’m usually not getting the full package of benefits and the salary until the offer comes down. I’ve also been told by multiple jobs that they want me to think it over and that they don’t expect an answer that day. I usually take a day or two to think about it and make sure I have all the info I need. Especially if you are going to negotiate for a salary, you can’t negotiate until after you have an offer, but before you accept. That being said, if I’m really excited and feel confident I’m going to take it I convey that excitement over the phone and ask for some time to discuss with my family, etc.

      I have taken jobs right away, but I did that a lot more when I was younger, working part-time or stipend/contract jobs over the summer, where I was getting paid an hourly wage that was in the job posting, and I knew there was no negotiation or anything.

    18. Art3mis*

      I take it, but I also don’t have a lot of options. Maybe if I did, I would sleep on it.

    19. KRM*

      I took my current job after only interviewing here. I liked the people and the package overall was great, so it just made sense. I think as long as you feel good about it, you should do it. And they should give you at least three days before asking for an acceptance notice, so if you really want to talk to someone, you can use that time. But if you feel good about it, go for it!

    20. Little Tin Goddess*

      Nothing wrong with taking a day or so to think about it, even if you dont need to think about it. Companies expect it. They dont necessarily know if you are interviewing elsewhere, unless you have told them when asked.

    21. Not So NewReader*

      I accept the job.
      I don’t want people wasting my time so why waste theirs?
      And I don’t want to work for someone who plays head games and I refuse to be that person who plays head games.
      (Am speaking for myself. Others may have good reason for delaying. I have never been able to find a good reason. If there isn’t a good reason then it feels head game-ish to me.)

      1. Fortitude Jones*

        You don’t think people needing a couple of days to review benefits is a good reason?

        1. Not So NewReader*

          hmm. Not sure how you got that out of what I said. If that is what they need to do then they should do that. But I see no point to “pretending” to do x or y, just to make the company wait for the answer when a person has already decided.
          I only read AAM now. But in the past I had stumbled across more than a few articles saying that one should make the company wait for their answer of acceptance. No reason was necessary, just make them wait.
          I have always thought that was bad advice.

          1. Fortitude Jones*

            Others may have good reason for delaying. I have never been able to find a good reason.

            This is what you said – this is where I got it from. Had you added what you just did about people asking for time when they really didn’t need it, I wouldn’t have asked the question.

      2. Windchime*

        I don’t really consider taking a day or so to consider all the factors to be “playing games” or “being coy” as another poster suggested. I usually say that I’m super excited but I’d like to sleep on it until tomorrow (or whatever), and then spend that time reviewing the benefits package, etc. With my current job, the manager had pretty much filled me in on that, so the only thing left was salary negotiation. As soon as that was done, I got a written offer and then accepted a few hours later.

    22. Jill March*

      My company was great about this. They wanted me to take some time. When they called with the offer, they asked if I’d be able to give them a decision by a specific date (which was a couple of business days plus the weekend). I probably could have asked for more time, but that was plenty.

      I was in your position and knew I’d take it, but I waited a day to send the signed offer letter. It never hurts to sleep on it.

      1. Anonymous Educator*

        Yes, I’ve had this happen, and this is great when they actually insist you take time even if you know you want it. More employers, do this!

    23. quirkypants*

      If I knew I wanted the job and the terms they outlined on the call sounded good to me, I’d probably answer with something like:
      “This sounds great! Let me just review all the terms and give it a thorough read-through and I’ll get back to you by EOD tomorrow” << I want to express I'm happy, I'm feeling positive, but that I do need to give a thorough reading and give the time that I will get back to them.

      I've also been the hiring manager and roll my eyes a bit when people take an entire week to get back to us. We give them the full week (when most other employers don't!) and our employement contracts are standard/simple, etc. In those cases it feels like it's mostly on principle.

      1. Windchime*

        When people ask for this much time, I would assume they are either waiting for another offer from someone else or they are using your offer to leverage a counter-offer from the current employer. I would probably still give them the time, but I would also be mentally preparing for that candidate to bail on me.

        1. Lucette Kensack*

          ONE day would make you worried about them bailing?? Yikes. The only folks I’ve encountered who accepted offers faster than that were very junior.

              1. Dontlikeunfairrules*

                Yup, they said a week.

                My thinking is that if someone asks for a week that’s a sign they are either trying to get their current employer to up their salary, or they’re juggling a few potential offers. When I handed recruiting, we needed to hire ASAP after getting notice and a week’s wait time meant potentially not having the exiting employee around to train the new person replacing them. So, a week to decide would not have been possible in my former industry. That particular position needed to be replaced immediately and it meant my dropping everything to meet 10-15 candidates within a day or two of getting notice from the exiting employee, and hiring a new person ideally within a week so they have 3-5 training days with the old person. I know most industries don’t work that way, but there is no way a week would be possible just to get a yes or no response. It would throw everything off completely and people would be unable to function.

    24. fhqwhgads*

      No offer I’ve ever received (as in the initial verbal offer, or the offer letter itself) has had the details about benefits. It usually says things like how many paid holidays, how many sick days, how many vacation days, and that there is health/vision/dental (or some subset thereof), but not the details of the insurance. So I generally have to ask them to provide that, which usually takes them some time to get back to me, and then once I have that I need time to review the details of the plans (and their cost to me). Because of that I’m very unlikely to accept on the spot.

      1. quirkypants*

        See, this is something I don’t think of as a Canadian. We do have extended health plans for things like prescriptions and dental but there’s generally not a lot of variability between plans so unless someone has very special circumstances (ie, they know they have very expensive prescriptions to pay for) this doesn’t come up super often.

        I’m curious why it takes so long to send to you, though. It wouldn’t take long for HR to just hit forward on a pdf with the details…

        1. Windchime*

          There usually isn’t just one plan, though. My employer has a handful of plans, and they are all different. Different levels of coverage, different deductibles, different restrictions on which doctors you can see, prescription co-pays, etc. It can be mind-boggling.

        2. fhqwhgads*

          I don’t know why they took quite so long to get back to me..not that it was super long, maybe 1-2 business days. Still you’d think that’d be info they’d have at the ready since they’d presumably need to give any new employee the info on the plans their first day. And yet, they acted like it was…not an out of the ordinary request, but also not a simple thing that takes 2 minutes either. I mean, I get that these people have other work to do, but yeah…usually there’s some sort of one-sheet with a grid that lays out all the possible options for comparison. To me, you don’t need super serious medical issues or expensive prescriptions to want to compare the plans. It can be as simple as “I live my existing doctor/dentist and don’t want to change. So I need to see if they’re in-network in any of these options.” Plus or minus: are these copays significantly different than what I have now? And what does each of these plans cost? It’s not just about taking or leaving the job, it’s knowing what negotiation needs to be done. Like if the healthcare costs to me in premiums alone are in the thousands more than my current job, even if initially the salary might’ve seemed great, combined with that expense, it might not be. So you have to do all the math even if you’re not going to the doctor or refilling prescriptions all the time.

          1. Dontlikeunfairrules*

            In my current job, I have a pdf ready to go with the 3 plan options, the coverage and specific details of each option, and the cost to the employee for the one “platinum plus”’plan we offer that we don’t pay 100% of the premium on (we pay 90% of that plan premium and 100% of the other 2 plans). It’s a 46-page pdf and a lot of it is stuff no one would ever think to ask about, but it literally covers EVERYTHING a potential employee could ask about. And I take 30 seconds to send it – not 2 minutes or 2 hours or 2 days. I don’t understand these HR people who take so long to simply forwarding a pdf. It’s kinda mind blowing.

        3. Miss Pantalones en Fuego*

          Ah, American health insurance. It’s far more complicated than it should be.

    25. alphabet soup*

      I always ask for time to consider. But that’s mostly because I have a personal rule to always sleep on it and make a pro/con list before making any big decisions in life. In my youth, I had a tendency to make stupid, impulsive decisions, so this rule has been a good antidote to that. You don’t lose anything by asking for time to think about it, so why not ask for the time? They’re not going to change their mind about hiring you if you ask for a weekend to think it over, and if they do, consider that a bullet dodged.

    26. kj*

      I received and offer a couple weeks ago for my second place company. I asked for the weekend to think it over, and immediately reached out to my top choice. The rushed the process and hot me an offer by the end of the day that was for more than it would have been had I not had another offer on the table. I have a week left at my current job before I get to start at my top choice!

    27. Just Elle*

      Ok so counter question – should you always try to negotiate? Thinking back on it, the only job I ever didn’t negotiate on was one where it was clearly spelled out what the salary was and that it Was Not Negotiable from the beginning. Otherwise, I’ve never been in a position where the offer came in above my expectations, so I’ve always negotiated (successfully btw).

      But if one did blow away my expectation, I’m wondering if I should negotiate for the sake of negotiating (heck, what if they were willing to pay $10k more and I missed the boat)? I guess it would be hard to justify why I think more is fair, if it meets industry standard etc.

      1. quirkypants*

        I’ve taken jobs without negotiating. If they meet the top end of the range I’ve provided, I feel it’s bad faith to ask for more UNLESS something has substantially changed in my understanding of the job.

        I actually pulled an offer once when I met the top of his range and he came back wanting 10K more (in this case, 7% higher than he wanted and we offered). We also paid above industry standards, he was a strong candidate but not a super star, and he was kind of presumptive and jerky about it. He had just beaten out our next best candidate by a hair so we pulled our offer to him and hired her and I think in the end we were happier for it.

        Note: the way he was jerky about it, I told him we couldn’t go that high. He then called my boss’s boss who he had met with for a fit interview to complain I wouldn’t meet his demands. My grand boss was gabbing NONE OF IT and told him off (professionally). I should note this was a dude who went above two women to try to appeal to another dude. Even my grandboss thought that was pretty obvious what was happening.

          1. Fortitude Jones*

            Absolutely. He should have just taken the generous offer, worked his ass off at this job, and then made his case for a raise after a year.

      2. alphabet soup*

        I didn’t negotiate my most recent offer. They met the top of my range. I felt like what they offered is fair for the work, and still 70% more than my current salary, plus the benefits are better than my current position (including tuition benefits which is very attractive to me because I’m getting my masters). I couldn’t think of any good justification for asking for more other than, you know, I like money.

    28. Manic Pixie HR Girl*

      I have been in this position and accepted on the spot. I almost mentioned one scenario where I didn’t do that, but actually, I DID have some reservations that I wanted to talk through with my spouse first (nothing red-flaggy, just some serious considerations I needed to make). I ended up taking that job (I think I called back the next day with a yes).

      Managers don’t think poorly of people who accept on the spot. That’s a myth.

    29. Seeking Second Childhood*

      If you have one offer and enough info to make the decision, just do it.
      If you have two offers, open questions, or another interview response expected aby day now, take the time. If gyou liked the other position/company better, that lets you call them and say “I have an offer from someone else but really liked the sound of your position. I d there any chance you’ll be deciding this week?”

    30. Chaordic One*

      When I’ve done this in the past, on one occasion I’ve had a job offer withdrawn. In my case, I wanted to look into options for insurance coverage, since the job I had been offered paid quite well, but had few benefits and no employer provided health insurance. (Having the job offer withdrawn was probably a red flag.)

      In spite of my bad experience, I think that this is a reasonable request and that it doesn’t hurt to ask for at least 24 hours to think things over.

    31. Kira*

      I recently got a literal dream job offer, much more than I thought they were going to pay me, and verbally basically said I would take it over the phone. I was too excited to be more reticent! But I didn’t consider it official until they sent me an offer letter (a few days later) and I had signed it.

    32. Well I used to be a farmer and I made a living fine*

      My first post-grad-school job, I’d thought a lot about whether I’d accept the job if it was offered to me, so when the company called with the offer, I said yes right away, about 3 seconds into the conversation. My new boss replied with some amusement, “Hang on, I haven’t even told you what we’re offering to pay you yet!”

      Oh right. At that point I barely cared what they were paying me because I knew whatever it was, it would be more than my grad student stipend! But it was a good reminder for me as an early-career person that employers appreciate thoughtful decision-making, and because of that, there is space for me to advocate for what I need (within reason, obviously!).

    33. The Other Dawn*

      I did with my previous job. To be honest, I only did that because I’ve read on here (and other sites) at various times that people should take a day or so to think it over. So I did, even though I knew right after the interview I wanted it.

      With the job prior to that one, I SHOULD have taken even an hour to think it over. I could have saved myself 10 months of utter misery. But I knew the manager, or thought I knew the manager. Live and learn.

      With my current job, it was my only option after my company being sold and I was headed for a stretch of unemployment. I’d applied for jobs and either got rejected or no response. I had one interview, but they were too slow to get back to me for the second interview. (They finally did…the day after I accepted my current job.) On paper, almost everything about my current job was what I was looking for; however, I had absolutely no enthusiasm about it, even with a slightly higher salary. Part of it was that I really, really wanted to move to another part of the industry (still do) and it wasn’t happening. Also, none of us were looking to change jobs; we were forced into it by a company sale. When I got the offer, I told him I’d get back to him the following day. It moved a little too fast for me given how I felt about the whole job search (two interviews and the offer within a total of four days), but most people would have been thrilled for the hiring process to move this quickly. I stalled on calling the HR guy back, mainly because I just didn’t want to face having to stay in this part of the industry. But I called him the next day and accepted. I’ve been here about three months now. It’s going well, though I do have my work cut out for me–the company is quite conservative in their policies and procedures, which is tough, but that’s part of what I was hired to work on changing. I still longingly look at job postings at the company I wanted to work for, but I just keep in mind that what I’m doing now will better prepare me to work there eventually.

  2. Simplyste*

    Do any of you have experience with starting an entirely new line of business or office priority? What resources did you use to map out your plan and make sure you didn’t miss any key steps?

    In my case, I’m fortunate to have been promoted into a more strategic role, and have been tasked with starting a student initiative which they’re saying could be our “third pillar”. It’s a fabulous opportunity for me – but would love to know some best practices, especially since I’m not an expert in the field.

    1. The Rain In Spain*

      Reach out to established programs to pick their brain- sometimes people will be guarded until you explain that you’re hoping they can share their knowledge/expertise with you and then they are often quite happy to discuss/set up a meeting/even send over resources.

      It can also be helpful to reach out to your end user/target (the students here it sounds like) to get some ideas from them on what would be helpful.

      And go in with a spirit of being flexible- you’re going to try some stuff out and see what lands well and build from there!

    2. Just Elle*

      Look into Lean. It originated in manufacturing but is highly applicable to business practices. Theres lots of good training out there. The most relevant ones here are the Improvement Mandate and the SIPOC / Process Map.

      Improvement Mandate – make sure you’re delivering what the sponsors actually want, and are clear on scope. List out: Stakeholders (who is impacted), problem statement, problem symptoms/history, desired results, guideline and scope (specifically list what is out of scope), key milestones, measures of success, risks to be managed, required resources, team leader/members and roles, and sponsors. Sponsors are your enablers – the people who can give you funding and priority. Get them to sign the improvement mandate. All of this is very brief, a few bullet points each, and should fit on one page.

      SIPOC – suppliers, inputs, process, outputs, customers. Helps you understand who you are serving and what you need to serve them. There’s example templates online.

      Process Map – you ever been in one of those conversations where you you said purple, and thought it was really obvious you meant purple, but it turns out later everyone was picturing a different shade of purple? By laying out a process map, you can uncover misunderstandings about everyone’s role and interpretation of a process.
      Do this with post it notes on a wall. Start with current state (if you have one – sounds like you might not). List inputs on the left, everything your department does goes in the middle on a flowchart, and then on the right list your outputs/customer.
      Then make your future state below that: what do you want the process to look like when you’re done?
      Then figure out what you need to do to get from current to future and add big yellow sticky notes to your wall. Things like “develop automated report system” or “appoint task owner” or whatever. Then assign owners for all of the actions, along with due dates. Transfer that into an action log and voila.

      1. Samwise*

        OMG, this is excellent, I’m starting a new initiative and have thought about many of these things, but not how to put it together. Yay! Thank you!

        1. Just Elle*

          “The Lean Six Sigma Pocket Toolbook” is $10 on Amazon and a great resource if you want to learn more!

    3. Loubelou*

      I’m a fan of design thinking for something like this. There’s a great process that walks you through key stakeholders, needs, resources and outputs. The Google Design Sprint is a great example.

    4. Ama*

      I don’t know if I’ve ever done anything entirely new, but I have developed new processes that fit in my portfolio but we just weren’t doing before. I concur with the other advice to look around for similar programs elsewhere — if anyone is willing to talk with you about how they developed their program that’s great, but sometimes even just seeing how a program is structured and presented publicly can help identify key elements you hadn’t thought about.

      I’d also advise you to document your entire development process — what options are being considered, why A was chosen over B, etc. One other thing I’ve had to do a lot at my current job is try to figure out why long-standing programs are structured the way they are and it is so much easier when I can find a document that says why certain decisions were made — and honestly, sometimes this even goes for decisions I made years ago, where I *know* there’s a reason why I chose to go one direction with a project but I can’t remember it offhand. As a bonus, in a worst-case scenario where someone has to take over the project from you (why yes, I have had a boss go on medical leave half way through implementation of an entirely new program), they’ll already have a record of what’s been done.

    5. Policy Wonk*

      Don’t ignore logistics. You can have great ideas and great people, but if they don’t have desks, computers, phone, etc. nothing will get done. And all those administrative things that we all hate? Those are important too. Wiring diagrams that clearly show lines of authority, position descriptions that clearly outline responsibilities, who can authorize spending and up to what dollar amount, etc. I have seen initiatives fail because everyone thinks someone else will take care of all that.

      1. Chaordic One*

        This is so very true. At my current job in a large faceless bureaucracy, no one knows who to call for anything, and when you do call, half the time no one is at their desk and they don’t return their messages. If they do return their messages, then it is to tell you that it is something they can’t do and most of the time they can’t tell you who can do it. We call the H.R. department, “Bigfoot,” because, in spite of occasional sightings, no one knows if it really exists.

      2. Michaela Westen*

        One of the keys to my success is taking time to be organized. Take the time to make comprehensive notes, organize documents and put them away where they can be found.
        Also take time to review your notes and annotate them, and review as often as necessary.
        All around me people are losing their documents or forgetting key details because they don’t do this.

    6. Not So NewReader*

      A contact list with contact info AND their area of responsibility or expertise.
      Sue (contact info) llama problems
      Tom (contact info) sheep problems
      Mary (contact info) HR problems
      Etc.

      For tasks that are repetitive, I try to do them the same way each time until I catch on and find my preferred way.

      I use a bullet journal type of thing to put info that I cannot put anywhere else, but absolutely must have. I keep a running index as I build the journal and date each entry like you would in a personal use journal.

    7. Phoenix Programmer*

      Not a new program, but a new role to the org that I had major controller shaping. Honestly I think you are already focusing on the wrong things. It should be people, people, people.

      You need to know who are your stakeholders, what do they need and how can you deliver? Who are your dissenters? What are their concern and how can you mitigate? Before you build be sure you have these answers first.

    8. Phoenix Programmer*

      There are some good ideas here but before you focus on the how you should get the why and for whom down pat. #1 priority should be people.

      Who are you building the program for? Who are your promoters and what do they need from you? How and when can you deliver?

      Who are your dissenters and what are their concerns? How can you mitigate those?

      People are the most important part.

      Source: stepped into a new role I was mainly responsible for building out the scope and responsibilities for. Built an internship program that’s been running two years.

      1. Phoenix Programmer*

        Sorry for the double post. For some reason the first one did not appear when I refreshed so I assumed I managed to cancel it. Easy to do on the phone. I know Alison is sick but feel free to ignore the first as I think I was able to focus and word the second one better anyway.

  3. Peaches*

    Just wanted to give an update on my coworker who was let go a couple of weeks ago, but is still working. To recap, our boss (in his email to our office staff) told us that he is allowing her to work until either she finds a new job, or we find someone to fill her job.

    I had mentioned last week that I had an inkling my coworker did not realize our boss had told everyone that we were letting her go. Well, my suspicions were confirmed. I overheard her telling a brand new employee of ours who is unaware of her soon departure that she was “going to be resigning soon for an amazing opportunity that [she] just couldn’t pass up.” She then proceeded to tell him that she “would probably be staying on for a little while longer though” since boss “will definitely want her to stay and train the new person for her role.” I just sat at my desk cringing. Our boss will most certainly NOT want her to stay on and train the next person considering what a disaster she’s been during her tenure here.

    On another happy note, my boss informed me that I wouldn’t have to train the new person in this role AT ALL. I spoke to him about my concerns of devoting so much time to training (which isn’t a part of my role at all), because my new position had started to get so busy lately. He understood completely, and decided that our corporate office will be doing all the training for the new employee. Here’s to hoping the next employee will be a much better fit!

    1. Fortitude Jones*

      LOL. I shouldn’t laugh at this woman’s delusions, but seriously? She can’t be real.

      I’m glad you don’t have to train her replacement. Could you imagine if you all ended up getting another one of her?

      1. Peaches*

        Honestly, though. She’s absolutely delusional!

        But yes, I’m very thrilled to be off the training bandwagon. :)

      2. Observer*

        Either delusional or putting up a front. It’s hard to admit that you’ve been fired, especially for cause.

    3. CatCat*

      And does the “amazing opportunity” actually exist? I suspect not! Thus the qualifier that she would be staying a little while longer.

      2. HigherEd Person*

        #spoileralert

        Amazing opportunity = essential oil pyramid scheme #bossbabe #oilyhun

        1. Peaches*

          Hahah! I love that you said that, because I’m the biggest pyramid scheme hater of all time.

        2. Silver Fig*

          Apropos of nothing: it really grates my pedantic cheese that MLM culture chose the wrong spelling of “hun”. My invasion of Persia went just fine, Karen.

    4. Charlie Dimmock*

      Is she trying to save face by saying the boss will want her to stay on or does she really believe it?

      1. Peaches*

        I’m not sure! I’ve tried to determine whether it’s a “save face” thing, or just pure delusion.

        1. Jule*

          You’re calling her delusional all over this thread, so it seems like you have determined your take already. The question was rhetorical and designed to help you consider empathy. You still have time to choose that over malice; I recommend it, both because it’s the right thing to do and because over time coworkers and supervisors notice when people want to kick those who are already down, and it’s not such a great professional look.

    5. sunshyne84*

      Does your boss have a set amount of time they are going to keep her? Finding a job can be a long process.

      1. Peaches*

        From my understanding, he will dismiss her if we find a new employee to take her place before she finds a job.

    6. The Man, Becky Lynch*

      Ah I’ve seen this kind of thing unfold, it’s not even necessarily that she doens’t know she’s being terminated! She may very well know that but is playing like it’s her choice because it feels better. It wouldn’t be the first time at all.

      Also she’s still a temp, right? So the boss wouldn’t necessarily need to say anything, that’s usually handed down with the temp agency. So her contact at the office probably set her up with a new gig =X That’s the amazing opportunity.

      1. Peaches*

        Oh, she does know! I just don’t think she realizes everyone else knows that she’s been let go (and is just working until she finds a job, or we find someone to replace her – whichever comes first).

        Yes, she is through a temp agency, but our boss himself did let her know that we were going to find someone else, per his email at least – “I let (coworker) know…”

        1. The Man, Becky Lynch*

          Oh oh oh! I was reading wrong, my bad! So she is just delusional, bless her sweet heart.

          I mean she shouldn’t have a problem getting a new job, unless she really burnt the temp agency. They don’t usually junk a person just for not being picked up as a perm-role. They will still be able to make money off her elsewhere.

          1. Peaches*

            No worries!

            I agree with you on the temp agency – I’m sure they can make money off her elsewhere!

    7. Susie Q*

      How is she being laid off if the company is planning on replacing her? Being laid off means that the company does not need that position or doesn’t have the money to pay someone to take that position.

      1. Peaches*

        I don’t think she’s been “laid off”, but “fired in a nice way” (i.e., letting her stay on until she finds something else, or we find her replacement). The position is not being eliminated.

      2. The Man, Becky Lynch*

        She’s still under a temp agency, so she’s not being laid off at all regardless. It’s a straight up “we’re going in a different direction with this role.” setup. That’s the rub for temping.

      3. Fortitude Jones*

        That definition may be the correct one, but I’ve seen other companies use it to mean the person was let go when they weren’t quite the right fit for the job, but also didn’t have major performance issues or attitude problems. For example, my very first job out of college told me I was laid off and not fired when I asked them to clarify. It was a position as an admissions counselor at a for-profit college, and I just wasn’t a good salesperson, which is essentially what that position is. They liked me personally, though, and ended up paying out my unused vacation time (the company had no policy or state requirement to do so) and giving me two weeks’ severance.

    8. no one*

      Someone is losing a job here. She is probably so stressed looking for new one and was just trying to save face. Who wants to go around telling people you’ve been fired?
      I’ve been let go too, they didn’t need my skills anymore.. my boss said we’ll just tell them it was a mutual decision. I remember finding a new one was hard, and telling them why is even tougher. I felt bad for her that she’s being called delusional.

      1. Peaches*

        I think it’s the fact that she’s offering (unprompted) information that she’s “leaving for an amazing opportunity” rather than just say nothing and leave when her time is up, that is causing people to call her delusional. No one asked her about her future endeavors – she choose to bring it up. Same with her comment about our boss “definitely wanting her to stay to train the new person.” She’s being let go for numerous performance issues that she is aware of. So why pretend that you’re so coveted here instead of again, just saying nothing? Also, she was given a lot of grace before being late go, and still chose to self destruct and not listen to direction. It just makes it difficult to feel bad for her.

          1. Miss Cheeks*

            Agreed, this whole thread seems really mean-spirited. What do you care if she’s trying to save face? Bad enough you’re mocking her to strangers on the internet.

          2. anon moose, anon mouse*

            Yup. But I find a lot of commenters on this site tend to find enjoyment in other people’s misfortune. See the helicopter parenting thread the other day as an example. It’s a lot of gleeful “and then they didn’t get the job and it was great!”

          3. Myrin*

            Have you read any of Peaches’s previous posts about this coworker, though? She’s been pulling quite unbelievable stunts for something like two months (I believe? Could be more), with Peaches’s actually being too understanding and accommodating in some situations, and I can totally understand being fed up with someone like this after they’ve been a thorn in your side for so long. It’s certainly not nice but honestly, after this woman’s behaviour, “civil” is the most she can expect.

            1. anon moose, anon mouse*

              I don’t think anyone should be expected to comb through previous posts to know what’s going on with someone. This isn’t anyone’s personal blog. The post came off as mean, so it’s understandable that people called it out as mean. They’re not required to go read up on the situation.

              1. Myrin*

                Of course they aren’t! But that also means that they don’t have the full picture and might be judging and mis-judging the situation accordingly. Those of us who have been following along know the trouble Peaches’s office went through with this person, which is why we’re siding with Peaches even in a thread where, if it were a standalone occurrence, she’d come across as mean. But if you don’t know the backstory – which, like you say, totally understandable – I think it’s fair to at least take her explanation (at 12:39 pm) at face value and not damn her and people siding with her based on incomplete knowledge of a situation.

                1. Peaches*

                  Again…thank you, Mryin!

                  Of course no one is expected to read the previous posts, but I do preface all of my posts with “just an update for those who have been following…” for this very reason. You do not have the full picture, and would understand my frustration with this person if you had, and realize there is absolutely no “unkindness” on my part when you factor in everything that had occurred with this coworker.

                  Just a couple weeks ago, readers were praising a constructive email I took the time to send my coworker, to aid her in turning things around, and not getting let go. Several commenters said they would love to have me as a coworker, and appreciated the eloquence in my email to her.She did NOT follow my advice whatsoever, which ultimately resulted in her demise.

                  So, please do not attack my character based on this standalone post (which is part of a MUCH bigger post!) I was overly kind to this coworker. She continued to be difficult and not follow direction. This is not a case of “she worked hard and everyone should feel bad that she’s being dismissed. It’s a case of “she was given many more chances than most people would have been given, and still chose to rub salt into her own wound.”

            2. Peaches*

              Thank you for commenting this, Myrin!

              As you mentioned, I have been overly understanding and accommodating with her for months, when others at my office did NOT give her the same grace.

              I don’t expect anyone to read previous posts, but I would really appreciate others not jumping to me being “mean spirited” and “unkind.” It’s simply not true.

      2. Seeking Second Childhood*

        But she’s a temp! She has a built-in answer to why she left her last job: “It was an X month contract.”and she can roll into how it helped her decide that she really wants a permanent position as a….whatever they’re hiring.

    9. justcourt*

      I can’t imagine why this woman would want to sugarcoat an embarrassing, demoralizing occurrence. Surely all the employees at your office are the kind of people who would reassure her and pass along job ledes. No one would do anything so unkind as share her humiliation on the internet or call her delusional.

      1. Stardust*

        I mean, i agree with your first sentence on principle although the fact that shes bringing this up unprompted muddies the water a little. (As in, i’d be very sympathetic to her saying this if people kept pestering her about her future at the company but i’m less so if noone even cares but she keeps bringing it up anyway.)

        But apart from that, have you and the others who are critical of Peaches and her office read her other posts about this coworker? The office has had massive problems with this employee for months–i remember Peaches’ very first post about her, where she kept insisting on using Peaches’s personal iPad for work to the point where people were wondering if she was planning on stealing it or just weirdly obsessed with Peaches; she simply refused to do work; she lied about where she was when she was supposed to be on a field trip; etc. Peaches has also been extraordinarily kind when giving her coworker detailed feedback and when it seemed like coworker got it, Peaches was relieved and glad and willing to work with her.

        I can absolutely understand the office’s goodwill running out eventually after months of this crap.

    10. Dontlikeunfairrules*

      I actually had a long-term contract role where the person I was replacing/filling in for told me she wasn’t coming back after maternity leave because “she and her husband discussed it and came to the conclusion that she should stay home full-time after giving birth and her husband didn’t like the amount of stress this job put on her.” BUT – BUT !! the CEO and executive VP I interviewed with both told me that they told the girl that she was essentially not able to return due to her poor attitude and lack of ability in the job. They both told me this and said she was shocked and tried convincing them otherwise but they were adamant that she wasn’t going to return. The fact that she lied so smoothly to my face, without my even asking about the situation, made me feel embarrassed for her but also annoyed, because why did she need to even say anything about it?

      Anyway, same type of thing and it’s cringeworthy when it’s happening- just stop talking already!

  4. Lillie Lane*

    Is it worth trying to make a change in an industry/event that you are only tangentially involved in?

    I received a general invite to an industry conference in an area that I have some experience with, but it’s not my focus. I won’t be going to the conference. But I checked out the web site for the event. Out of 27 speakers at the conference last year, only one was a woman. None of the advisory board members are women.

    I don’t have any political capital in this industry, and I don’t have a desire to start a crusade or anything. However, I find the lack of diversity in this group to be very concerning and it makes me very wary to be involved in the group. Is it worth saying anything, or should I move on?

    1. Eeyore's missing tail*

      Are you close to anyone involved with the conference? If not, it might not do much good to note the lack of diversity. I’m sorry.

      1. Lillie Lane*

        No, unfortunately I’m far removed from anyone involved. It’s a broad area that involves several different major industries, and all of the people are at high levels in large companies that I don’t have any dealings with. I work at a little company that is pretty isolated.

        1. Eeyore's missing tail*

          That’s a bummer. Maybe after the conference you can send the organizers a note about how much you got out of the conference, but that you noticed a lack of diversity among the speakers?

            2. Sam Sepiol*

              She could say (if it’s true) that she might have attended if the panels were more balanced.

    2. Fortitude Jones*

      If you feel strongly about it, it may not hurt to send the conference organizer a brief note saying how you were interested in attending until you saw the homogeneous nature of the panel speakers – this may be off-putting to others who are in your similar position.

    3. La la laaaa*

      I would! It can’t hurt, right? As long as you’re polite and considerate about it, I think it would be valuable for them to know that people are noticing that kind of thing. And even if you aren’t big enough in the industry to carry any capital at all, if anyone else offers the same feedback, you could be contributing to a critical mass that could foment some change.

    4. MintLavender*

      If you got invited, they care about your opinion. Doesn’t have to be a super high-stakes thing; “Thanks for the invite, unfortunately, I couldn’t help but notice that out of 27 speakers you hosted last year, only one was a woman, and that none of your advisory board members are women? There’s an increasingly popular movement for folks to decline speaking engagements at events that don’t have diverse speaking rosters, so I just wanted to flag that this is really concerning, and I hope you’re doing better this year than last. Thanks!”

    5. Lilysparrow*

      I think if you feel strongly enough to have the letter be your introduction to the industry, then others have suggested good wording.

      My personal inclination is to focus my efforts within my own sphere of influence.

      You said this conference is

      -Not in your segment of the industry;
      -Not one you would attend anyway;

      (aka, not your circus)

      -Not an area where you have any connections;
      -Not where you have any capital.

      (aka, not your monkeys).

        1. Michaela Westen*

          Unless you think it would damage your career or future options, you could send a note anyway, if you feel strongly about it.
          I’ve done things like that and sometimes actually seen change!

  5. Awful Office*

    Does anyone else ever feel put down for having an office job? Twice this week, I have heard from different people that they couldn’t stand working at a desk job in an office setting, that its soul sucking to work at a corporation that is only about making money. Once from my best friend, a freelance artists, and again from a podcast I love hosted by someone who works in the entertainment industry. Both cases, they seemed offended by the thought of office work.

    If I had my choice would I be doing office work? No, there are a million other things I’d like to do with my time. But I like the regular hours, steady paycheck and benefits, and reliable work tasks that allows me to do my job and go home every day to things I want to do. While I can’t speak to the life of the podcaster, I know my artist friend struggles with her bills, her health, and even her fun art because of the low pay and unreliable work of a freelancer.

    To hear several times this week about how awful office work is gets my negative thoughts rolling, even though I like my job, coworkers, pay and all that. Just made me wonder if others feel put down for the work they do.

    1. Snubble*

      I get that sometimes, but I like to emphasise the benefits in a way that… very gently calls them out for classist assumptions about what work should be? What I mean is, it’s a regular paycheque and everyone can appreciate that, but it’s also indoors in the warm and I get to sit down all day, so it’s really pretty good!

      1. alphabet soup*

        That’s a really important point. I grew up in a working class household– my mom was a bartender, my dad worked third-shift in a factory, I have great uncles who were migrant farmworkers, etc. I attended a prestigious LAC, which kind of gave me a weird sense of what work what should be– I had a lot of peers who bought into “office work makes you a sell-out– I want to do something exciting and creative!” mentality. But like, for my family office work is a privilege that comes with a steady paycheck and benefits. My dad applied to the factory that he worked at 30 times before they hired him– he wanted to work at that particular factory because he knew they offered great benefits. Office work is a great source of security that not many people in the world, relatively speaking, have access to.

      2. tangerineRose*

        I think that sometimes people talk that way about office work to make themselves feel better about their choices to do something else.

    2. LSP*

      I don’t take that personally. People saying that are generally referring to how *they* would react to having to work in an office setting. I don’t think most of those comments are making a judgement about people who do work in offices.

      Except the comment about working “just for money.”

      Yes, we work for money. That is how we afford what we need to live. Some people have lucked out and are able to just do what they love day-in and day-out and earn enough for food, shelter and clothing. The rest of us need to find other ways of earning money, which may mean working in an office. People who scoff at the idea of working for money are just really entitled, and that comment says more about them than it does about you.

      1. Fortitude Jones*

        People who scoff at the idea of working for money are just really entitled

        Or incredibly idealistic and naive.

        1. Jadelyn*

          Honestly, I think naivete/idealism is more often the culprit than entitlement. I used to shudder with dread at the idea of being tied down to an office job, because to me (in my early-to-mid twenties) that represented capitulation to the dominant culture and a subsuming of my values and identity into Corporate America. It took an unfortunate amount of time for reality to get through the “follow your passion” nonsense I’d been inculcated with growing up, and eventually my outlook was less “yay, office jobs” and more “I need to eat, and hey, it’s better than retail.”

          And then I got lucky and made my way into the nonprofit sector, in a social justice organization that I believe in wholeheartedly, in a position where I can help people, and where I can be my less-than-perfectly-conformist self and be accepted as such. Younger-me was afraid because she didn’t have the life experience to realize such a thing was possible. Time and exposure to the working world helped. I think there are a number of people, especially younger folks, who’ve been raised on the “follow your dreams/leap and the net will appear/etc” mentality, and they develop this “ew, working for money” attitude because of it – but then they learn a bit more about how the world works and generally grow out of that.

          (Some people never will, of course – but I just really do think it’s idealism/naivete rather than entitlement at the root of this most of the time.)

          1. Eleanor Shellstrop*

            This is such a good point. As a younger millennial, I really feel like the “don’t sell out to a corporate job” thing was so present in media and pop culture as my generation was growing up. And then a lot of us realized that an office job can actually feel like a huge privilege when the economy is in crisis and you can barely find retail/service jobs, let alone afford to strike out and “follow your passion” and “be true to yourself.”
            That being said, I’m sure that parts of creative, artistic industries probably feel a little bit like a bubble, where no one in your circle is doing anything office-ish so it feels strange that anyone would want that. I think it’s similar to academia in that way – my partner is in academia, and has only ever been in academia, as have most of his peers, and sometimes I think they just don’t get why someone would work in an office.

            1. ket*

              I’m evolving in this too. I’m in academia right now, and have expressed horror in the past at jobs that seem to require you to sit in one place for a long time (or stand, or whatever) — my work style has always been “nomadic” in part because of the nature of what I do (you can grade and write anyplace; you must do classroom teaching in a classroom, not your office; there is often travel involved in my job). As I’m getting older, my idealism is being challenged in that increasingly it seems like I can’t make the change I want to see from academia. I am feeling like I need to move into corporate America because that’s where many directions are set, and even if I’ll be a cog there esp at first, I’ll be a cog that’s better understanding how power works in the US.

              The freelancer/solopreneur/independent creative lifestyle sells itself with the ability to make a difference on your own. I’ve tried it and I realize that I’m not the person who can run the business/be a great marketer/do the research/do the online class curriculum development/build a following/post great Instagram pics. (I mean, I can and have, I just hate a bunch of it and am not that great at it.) If I want to make change, I need to work with other people and leverage their strengths too, maybe join a larger organization that’s working on what I want to work on. An office job might actually be the more powerful venue.

          2. Fortitude Jones*

            Yup, I had the same thought process when I was fresh out of school. Then those student loans came due, lol. Sallie Mae does not care one bit about my artistic integrity – these bills gotta get paid.

      2. Kiki*

        I agree with everything LSP said and want to add that sometimes people who say this are trying to justify (to themselves and others) why they don’t have all the benefits that come along with a regular ole office job. The reality is most people don’t adore office work– they need insurance and money.

        1. Caroline*

          Agree, this sounds a lot like projection and trying to justify (to themselves) a very difficult lifestyle choice. More power to them if they love it, but I’ve done full-time freelancing before and you pretty much have to constantly talk yourself out of taking a steady deskjob because of how tough it is just to stay afloat that way.

        2. Kendra*

          I think you’ve hit the nail on the head there; if you’ve spent most of your adult life feeling like you have to justify to your parents, family, friends, neighbors, random people in the supermarket, etc., why you don’t have a “real” job (as many people in creative fields do), it would probably be pretty easy to start mentally tearing more mainstream jobs down.

        3. Michaela Westen*

          I don’t love getting up early and corporate bs, but an office job suits me in other ways. I have health issues and I can work when I’m not feeling 100%, it’s comfortable, I can eat and drink while working. In many ways it’s much better than other environments. Maybe jealousy is a factor in the grumbling of freelancers.
          One thing to keep in mind for those who think they’d like an office job: the way the office looks doesn’t tell you whether the employer is good. I worked at an office that was in a vintage building in a lovely tree-lined neighborhood, the office had nice furniture, plants, a flower garden… and the job was a nightmare because of the toxic owner.
          I’ve seen other offices with gorgeous upscale furniture and decor, the people there wearing beautiful suits, hot drinks and food provided, etc. – that’s to impress the rich customers and the employer may or may not value their staff. You have to look at other things than the decor to determine if they’re a good employer.

      3. I hate the offseason.*

        As someone who has always had an office job, I love the security. I have relatives who are either chasing a dream or looking for a get rich quick scheme. You should see them twitch when they find out I will be eligible to retire at age 60 (less than 3 years!!) w/ a pension, a 401K, and other benefits. It may be boring on occassion, but I love security. I grew up in a financially insecure home (dad lives on social security and what money I send him), so that was a huge factor. It isn’t about the money, it is about the security (I’ve been fortunate that my position is secure).

        1. EH*

          THIS!

          I freelanced for about five years after I finished school, trying to break into the field I’d been training for and failing (it was crumbling, not hiring new people). When I finally took an office job, following in my Dad’s footsteps as a technical writer, the security and predictability were WONDERFUL. No more constant hustling for work, no driving all over to my several part-time/freelance gigs, etc. I got stuck contracting for a few years, and am finally salaried again – and loving it. I love the stability. I have a ton of debt from my freelance years, and until that’s paid off, I am a happy office worker bee.

          Sometimes it’s boring af, but if it were fun all the time they wouldn’t pay me nearly as much.

        2. Even Steven*

          Exactly this! For me – the security, the 401k, the health insurance, the cosy cubicle, the lovely big lunchroom, sitting all day LOL being warm & dry, no evening or weekend work, no back-breaking lifting. Most days I can’t believe my good fortune. My next-door neighbor owns a landscaping business and comes home wet, tired & aching every day. We make the same money, and are the same age, but he has none of my office perks, and looks 15 years older than I. If anyone were to criticize office work I would just laugh back.

          It’s interesting to me to see that many folks here have heard this criticism and its underlying message that creative work is more valuable than being stuck in a cube. Well, the cube jobs offer all of the long-term value-added that I described here, AND can finance creative pursuits during all the free time they afford. Win win!

      4. Long-time AMA Lurker*

        I get this all the time. I have an artistic background myself and have consciously chosen not to go into the freelancing/hustling lifestyle because I find I need steady benefits and a steady paycheck to *be* creative! I think most folks who balk at the idea of regular office work have never really…worked in an office, or at least a corporate setting. Whenever I hear someone from the art world throwing shade at regular 9-5s, I always cheerfully say, “I love the benefits!” and move on. Only you know what works best for your personality type and energy level, and I’ve found that for me personally, the dependability and work/life balance that comes from my office job far outweighs the love of “mission” that I’ve had in other jobs where my sense of balance (and most people’s professional boundaries…) were totally out of whack.

        Whenever I start feeling crappy about this, I check my 401K matching and daydream of my safe and reliable retirement.

        1. Anax*

          Likewise, I’m a creative sort but goodness, I would crash and burn in a freelance lifestyle. Why on earth would I want a job where I have to rustle up clients (who may well be jerks!), do my own marketing, and sell myself – when I can have a manager do that FOR me? And an HR department which will smack down bigoted views, with no cost to my paycheck?

          I know freelancing can come with a lot of freedom, but it would also come with a lot of job duties and compromises I don’t like.

          (I’m… also disabled, and having a job which accommodates that is pretty darn essential for me. An outdoors job or a freelance job would be really hard there, too.)

        2. Seeking Second Childhood*

          I love my weekends off and paid vacation days & sick time. Often I love the challenge of individual projects and problem-solving. I also know that I’m in an industry that helps people in real life, so my little contribution makes a difference.

    3. KEG*

      Often people who feel the need to put down other situations are not entirely happy with their own!

    4. MuseumChick*

      I think this is one of those those things that has been very in vogue for a long time. Similar to “follow your dreams!” It’s a mentality that works really well in moves/TV shows but in the real world regular hours, healthcare, etc matter a whole lot.

      I would be very tempted to respond to those people with “Yup, my soul crushing job where I get X, Y, and Z benefits. Oh the humanity.”

      2. Faith*

        My response would be “Yes, this job just makes me wanna cry all the way to the bank”.

      4. Stornry*

        Not thrilled with office work, either, but I do love my “cushy government job” for the benefits (and pension!). When asked what I do, I just cheerfully say that “I’m a bureaucratic numbers-cruncher. I used to be a bureaucratic paper-pusher, but I moved up.”

        Then I get in my (new) car and go to my (nearly fully paid for) home and do whatever I feel like doing.

        1. Eeyore's missing tail*

          That’s the best part of working for the state. The salary is not always the greatest, but the benefits and pension are fantastic.

    5. Eeyore's missing tail*

      Yes. I cannot tell you how many time I hear that people can’t imagine how I can put up with working in an office, not being outside, not following my dreams, etc, etc. To me, my job is means to an end. Like you said, it’s a decent steady paycheck, great benefits, and it allows me to do what I want. Several of my close friends work in the service industry and when they comment on how awful it must be to work in an office, I just say there are worse places to work and change the subject. Occasionally, I through out some of my more awesome benefits (like that I’m working on a degree for free while I work my office job), and they usually get pretty quiet after that.

      1. Jaid*

        They work in a service industry and think your job is awful? What do they do, sell unicorn candy and trade in the happy dreams of children?

        1. CMart*

          I will admit to occasionally missing bartending. The sociability, the banter*, the energy and natural workout, the sheer fact of getting paid to hang out in a bar and talk to people out to have a good time etc…

          But the bad parts (no healthcare, wear and tear on my body, the hours, the harassment, the stress, the feast/famine nature of seasonality) outweighed all of that and the bad parts* of my accounting job don’t even come close to touching those.

          * I really suspect the service industry folk who rail against the horrors of office life are mostly picturing a world in which they can’t “be themselves” and have to censor their language/personality, or not slack people on asses etc… the brash camaraderie that can be both a joy and a hazard of service work. Wearing a monkey suit and saying things like “let’s circle back and talk about synergy” does sound pretty lame.

        2. tangerineRose*

          I’m surprised too. I used to work in fast food, and if I’m having a bad day at work, I remind myself how much worse that was. I mean, it wasn’t absolutely terrible, but you’re on your feet all day, and some of the customers are pains.

      2. raisingsand*

        I am on the back end of this situation, at 62 years old. Many (most) of my friends are lifelong artists and musicians. I received a LOT of these comments in my thirties. I know my close friends love me, but there was a pretty thick layer of entitlement due to their assessment of their talent, and some elitist attitude, too. I had NO talent, enjoyed working, and was good at it. I also valued security and had a family to provide for and took that seriously. After 30 years, I have a great job, good insurance, a pension and 401K. I’m set for retirement in a few years as soon as I’m eligible for government insurance. Most of my artistic friends now have regrets, as they age and deal with medical issues and life just gets harder. I did a lot of soul-searching when I was young on this issue, and ultimately did what I thought was best for me. I have no regrets.

    6. LaDeeDa*

      This week I had someone say to me that what I do for a living- Leadership Development, isn’t a real job “you can’t teach people to be leaders.” It is a $14 billion a year industry, over 15,000 new books on leadership have already been published this year… UGGGG. I just had to take a deep breath and walk away.
      Ultimately, they have no idea what you do or how what you do makes you feel, so it just doesn’t matter. but it is really hard not to feel put down when someone, especially a close friend, says something like that.

      1. Ama*

        That’s also such a dumb statement because of COURSE you can teach people to be leaders — and in fact, I’ve come to believe that you HAVE to teach people if you want good leaders and not just people who think that being a leader means “what I say goes.”

        1. Jadelyn*

          OMG absolutely – leadership is a learned skill. Nobody is born knowing exactly how to lead. Some people take to it and figure it out more naturally than others, but there’s a whole bundle of related skills needed to be a really good leader, and why *wouldn’t* you want that to be teachable?

      2. BenAdminGeek*

        That’s like saying that since some people have an natural aptitude for math, “you can’t teach people math.” I think walking away is the right approach there.

      3. Alice*

        That is frustrating! And you’re quite within your rights to disengage.
        May I suggest, though, that if you do ever want to persuade someone that leadership can be taught, starting with the size of the industry might not be the most effective approach. Homeopathy is a $15 billion/year industry, but that doesn’t make homeopathy real. Maybe emphasizing the satisfaction of your customers would make the point that leadership training can be taught.

      4. Michaela Westen*

        Once a friend of a friend said my job is made-up and not real on Facebook. When I challenged her she spent days posting insults and ranting. Niiiiice.
        Maybe one day she’ll grow up, but I’m not holding my breath on that.

      5. Batgirl*

        They probably believe you can’t teach people anything and that people come into the world fully formed according to race, class and gender. Source; how we pay/respect teachers because of course it’s just glorified baby sitting. You can’t teach how to be smart!

    7. Corky's wife Bonnie*

      Oh yes, my brother in law calls me, my husband and the other brother “pencil pushers.” The three of us have hobbies outside of our jobs so we’re fine with our careers, but he likes to implicate that he does “real work.” Whatever dude….we just roll our eyes.

    8. I'm A Little Teapot*

      The comments may be coming from a place of deep insecurity. Sometimes, people will try to make themselves feel better by insulting the thing. You have a steady paycheck, benefits, predictable hours/schedule. Yes, there are downsides to working in an office, but there’s also a lot of downsides to NOT working in an office.

      Practically speaking, I would gently ask my friend not to diss my life. She’s made her choices, you’ve made yours, and while they’re different, neither of you deserve to be insulted for those choices. If friend isn’t willing or able to do that, then you may need to take a step back from the relationship for a bit.

    9. Wannabe Disney Princess*

      I did until I reframed it in my mind. My job is my job, it’s not me. It allows me to pursue my hobbies and the things I like. I am not WannabeDisneyPrincess: Office Peon. I am WannabeDisneyPrincess: Daughter, Best Friend, Chinchilla Owner, Traveler, Makeup Collector, Coffee Drinker, etc…who works in an office.

      1. Isotopes*

        I push my pencil and do accounting all week and then camp and dirt-bike and shoot guns (at targets) on the weekend. And go on vacations and spoil my niece and nephews. I’ve had people tell me that they feel like I should have an “awesome, interesting” job because I “seem like a cool person.” Yeah, I can do all those cool things because I have a secure office job.

        My job is about the last interesting thing about me, and I don’t have a problem with that.

        1. Wannabe Disney Princess*

          I’m single and when people ask “What do you do” I’ve started answering with my hobbies and interests. Then finish up with “I do x,y,z for work.” It might sound silly, but verbally separating my identity from my job did wonders for not only combatting burnout but for beating myself up about not having a fascinating job.

          1. only acting normal*

            I once saw a comedian distinguish between the North and South of England: in the South if you ask someone what they do they’ll tell you their job, in the North they’ll tell you about their prize petunias.
            I know which seems healthier to me (I live in the South, but I’m also not English). :)

    10. Catsaber*

      Yes, I’ve had those same feelings/experiences. There’s a way to say “office work is not for me” that’s not condescending to people who choose that path. I knew a woman once who just really hated having bosses – she only wanted to be self-employed. That’s great! Go for it! You do you! But she would make all sorts of little comments about how much better she was for not being “tied down” and “ordered around” and could “fully be myself.” It was annoying. I just had to ignore her and remind myself that we had different personalities, and different priorities.

      1. Overeducated*

        Yeah, I left a field where I could have had a LOT more autonomy and not been locked into an office space or hours because it required a lot more marketing yourself and chasing down grant money, and I found that incredibly stressful. It seems like self-direction and flexibility tend to go hand-in-hand with higher levels of risk and uncertainty. Some of us don’t deal well with that, while on the other hand we don’t all feel any real need to “fully be myself” at work (whatever that means).

        1. Catsaber*

          Simply put, she really bristled at being told what to do. And that’s fine! Go live your life! Just don’t insinuate that the rest of us are sell-outs because we don’t mind working within a hierarchy.

          I had career plans to be a college professor and when I started looking at all the risk and uncertainty there (and just how many freakin’ COMMITTEES I’d have to serve on), I decided it wasn’t the life for me!

    11. londonedit*

      Ugh, yeah, it’s a lazy comment to make and one I hear a lot. ‘Office work’ can mean so many different things! I’ve had similar comments from freelance friends since I went back to an in-house office job – yes, there are some things about freelancing that I miss, but having a ‘normal’ office job (still doing the work I was doing on a freelance basis before) means I have sick pay, paid holidays, a regular income, a fun working environment and actual interactions with other people on a daily basis. Office work doesn’t have to mean toiling away for ‘the man’ in total drudgery.

      1. Fact & Fiction*

        I quit corporate work when I was fortunate enough to sell some books to a major publisher. I supplemented that money with freelance gigs, which was all fine and dandy until the book money dried up without more sales. Then I couldn’t quite make enough with the freelance gigs and it became REALLY stressful trying to dredge up enough clients and fight to get the money some of them owed me and…long story short, I also went back to having a full-time corporate job. It is way less stressful and, because of that, I’m actually writing more fiction than I have in years because I’m not so freaking anxious all the time.

        Obviously if I ever win the publishing lottery and make a ton of money off books again, I might consider leaving the corporate world a second time. But in the meantime I am very happy to have a good job making good money and benefits and having much less stress.

    12. The Rain In Spain*

      In the past (when I was not thrilled with my job) I would just say: oh well it’s great you don’t work for a corporation then, isn’t it? Depending on how well I know the person of course, after all they are expecting you to agree.

      Now I tell people I actually feel very lucky to be in a role where I enjoy my work and atmosphere, and that the work-life balance lets me pursue my hobbies and passions as well. Then they typically backpedal or express surprise, but the vibe shifts back to more positive conversation.

      Different employment situations work well for different people!

    13. CatCat*

      I work in an office AND for the government so it’s a double-whammy. (I swear, there’s a column in our local paper that exists for the sole purpose of hating on government workers.) I find the digs at working for the government the worst.

      1. Stornry*

        So true! at least I get the benefit of saying it’s the Library. Most people like libraries.

      2. UK Civil Servant*

        Ha! Tell me about it. :)

        I started reading the first of a popular series of fantasy books and had to give up because the lead character’s main personality trait was how much he loathed and despised his fellow civil servants. Beyond setting up that he didn’t like his job (fine!) it got offensive fast.

    14. Not Me*

      Honestly, the thought of being a freelance artist or working in the entertainment industry both sound soul sucking and I wouldn’t be able to stand doing either. You could find someone to say that about pretty much every job on the planet.

      What matters is that you’re happy in your job, not what others think about it.

      1. Engineer Woman*

        Yes, this! I wouldn’t survive on my art skills (cause there aren’t any!).

        And what companies exist solely to make money? I mean: don’t most companies provide a service or product that people want? Let’s say I work for an auto manufacturer – people need and want cars! Or even the dreaded Dept of Motor Vehicles (one of my nightmare places to go / hence seems awful to work at) BUT people need drivers licenses and to register their cars!

        1. DerJungerLudendorff*

          Well, we’re all working within a capitalist system in which everyone’s supposed goal is to enrich themselves as much as possible. So in many ways, companies do just exist to make money. Providing things people need is just a happy side benefit that can be dropped as soon as it becomes more profitable (See every company who provides worse products and services because it’s cheaper and their customers can’t leave them)

          Of course, demanding to work for a purely philanthropic organization just isn’t realistic for most people. You would have to overhaul the entire system to do so. So unless and until that happens, you probably have to work for a for-profit company and make the best of it.

    15. Overeducated*

      Yes, just last week I had a relative tell me he is sorry and wishes for my sake that I were out in the field again instead of at a desk. I was like “yeah, me too, but the desk job pays about twice as much and the benefits are pretty good…” I didn’t mention that I think there are more opportunities for advancement back to a higher level more field-based position from where I am now than if I insisted on only doing “fun” work (because that’s not what they pay and promote people for!), but that is also true.

    16. Queen of the File*

      Oh yes, constantly. Most of my acquaintance circle is made up of musicians and freelancers. Their reactions to my job range from what I would call polite incomprehension to unfiltered pity and disdain. I’ve also had people tell me to my face that I am living their literal worst nightmare of a life. I respect that people have different tolerances and priorities but that is pretty rude!

      However, I am noticing a few more speak up about being envious of my relative financial security as we all age. I am sure they have also felt or been judged and put down for their lack of a steady paycheck or “real job” too.

      We all have certain privileges, and I know I am nowhere near what most people’s actual “worst nightmare of a life” might be.

      1. only acting normal*

        Worst nightmare? Yeah, I’ll take my desk job with the too cold aircon and the wrangling with computers and the occasional day of death by PowerPoint (and paid holiday, and a pension) over sulfur mining or electronic waste stripping thanks!

        1. DerJungerLudendorff*

          Maybe they would also like an oppressive and murderous totalitarian regime of their local variety to spice things up a bit?

    17. Mimi Me*

      I love my office job – both for the reasons you listed above and because of the work I do.
      My husband recently changed fields as well as jobs due to burnout. He used to work as a manager in Residential Treatment and now is a driver for a pet crematorium. Very different fields. A now former friend of ours was actually very cruel when he discovered what my husband does now. He called it disgusting, vile, and said that he didn’t know how my husband could get out of bed every morning to do a job like that. My husband actually loves his job. He gets to meet interesting people, he interacts with animals (alive!) at Vet’s offices every day, he gets to see the sun every day and be outside in it, he gets paid significantly more than his last job, and he loves that his job provides a service for people who’ve lost a loved one. My husband said that he thinks former friend doesn’t understand that not every job has to be the same.
      I think your friend and the podcaster don’t understand either. Office job, driver, artist, podcaster…. go ahead and like the work you do, but don’t crap on someone else for liking something different.

      1. Catsaber*

        That sounds like a great job for my husband! How did he get into that, if you don’t mind sharing?

      2. not really a lurker anymore*

        I never considered how the remains get to and from the crematoriums. I didn’t realize that was a job. So thank you for broadening my horizon today!

      3. Silver Fig*

        I really wish your husband’s job was a thing in my area. My vet takes the animals to the crematorium herself and I have to pick them up, and it’s SO far away. An 80-minute drive each way while snot-sobbing is not particularly fun or safe.

      4. only acting normal*

        I get why it wouldn’t suit everyone, but can’t see any way it’s “vile” or “disgusting”! It’s providing a kind service to bereaved people – that’s lovely! Good on your husband.
        (I can see why they’re a former friend.)

        1. DerJungerLudendorff*

          That baffled me too. Does this friend think that people work in mortary services because they just love death and sorrow or something?

    18. twig*

      I’ve heard that (and thought that in the past when I worked at not-good and not-good-culture-fit places). It’s kind of the sibling of “JUST an admin/secretary” thinking.

      I’m creative-minded and not career driven. My job is there to fund my “real” life.

      Another one that I’ve run across, coming from a primarily working class family, is that I don’t have a “real” job or don’t do “real” work because I sit in front of a computer all day. (or even that I should be making TONS of money because I have a degree and I sit in front of a computer all day) (for reference, I have 2 degrees: literature and creative writing. I’m and administrative assistant at a state university)

      My current theory on work is: There are 3 important things to take into consideration in a job:
      1. The company — what they do, how ethical they are etc
      2. The People I work with
      3. The compensation & Benefits

      If I can get at least 2 out of the three to a place that I like, I’m golden.

      In my current job: I love the place I work — it’s a university, how can I not get behind the mission? The people I work with are great — smart, friendly, helpful, quirky at times. The pay is… Okay (see: state university in a state where education funding has not yet returned to pre-2008 levels). The benefits, however, are fabulous, including 3 weeks each PTO and sick leave annually, decent health insurance, education benefits etc.

      Another thing to take into account: who else is going to do these jobs? Especially as an administrative assistant, we are the glue that holds companies/universities/etc together and keep things running smoothly.

      The podcaster: They know THEIR life and what worked for them. The same for your artist friend — her tolerance for financial instability may be higher than yours. There’s nothing wrong with that! To each, their own!

      1. Anon for Today*

        This has been my experience as well. My working class in-laws treat office work as “not really work” or a “cushy job.” I think this comes from the fact that most of them have blue collar type jobs that are physically active and when they do have downtime at their jobs, they can watch videos or play on the internet (as they have informed us – I am sure that is not true in many place). I truly believe that is what they think we do all day.

        The funny thing is that the comments stopped after we were on a family vacation and both my husband and I both had to do some work. It somehow hit home that our cushy office jobs did require real work and that while when they were on vacation they were not expected to do any work or check in, we did not have that option and we still required to be on top of things in the office. (To be fair, both our companies are great about not requiring work on vacations – this was a weekend trip to the beach and we kinda used work as a way to get out of “all family togetherness at all times events.”)

        1. Anon for Today*

          This didn’t next where I expected it too. It was in response to another comment about relatives who felt office jobs weren’t real work. I can’t find it now?

    19. The Man, Becky Lynch*

      My family often says things that aren’t necessarily “great” and allude to my life being “easy” and office work being a walk in the park but that’s out of their wrong assumptions on what office work is all about. All my family is from a long line of laborers, so I’m the one who is the weirdo among them. Thankfully they don’t act like it’s torture and they could never do it for that purpose! I just hate being made to feel lazy [even though most jobs have me regularly active and doing much more than an “office” job, they don’t get it though].

      You cannot internalize their negativity. It’s poison! They are not being malicious, just blissfully ignorant. Pay your bills, enjoy your life, it stinks to have an outlook like they do!

    20. Karen from Finance*

      I used to get this a lot, because I used to hang out a lot with artists, aspiring writers and poets. I was one too, only I was the ONE person there who also had a day job. I got those types of comments all the time, like I was a sellout and it’s sooo boring and how nobody there could stand it. It gets old really fast. So much commiseration.

      I… don’t really hang out with that crowd anymore.

    21. Anonymous Educator*

      That’s odd, because a lot of the artists I know need an office job as their day job to pay rent and get health insurance, and they prefer it to be as boring an office job as possible so they have energy to do art on the evenings and weekends.

    22. Sleepy*

      I once took a few weeks off from my office job to freelance on a (non-Hollywood) film set. It was some the worst and most tedious work I’ve ever experienced. At least cashiering ended after an 8 hour shift. One of the other workers was saying “oh this is boring but at least it’s not office work.” He was speechless when I told him this was a lot more boring than my office job.

      Also, sometimes the cool industries aren’t as cool as you think they’re going to be.

      1. College Career Counselor*

        I have this conversation with students regularly. The so-called glamour industry (e.g, advertising, finance/banking, etc.) doesn’t mean the entry level job is glamorous. I ask them “if it’s so glamorous, why do all these companies recruit so heavily every year? Because there’s turnover when people find out they’re not suited to, or not interested in, the required work.

    23. Tuppence*

      I took the unusual step from being self-employed through my late 20s – early 30s to move back into an office environment.

      My first full-time job out of university was as an office administrator. I HATED that office. It was soul-destroying work, no-one ever spoke to each other, and I was miserable. After they fired me (!) I decided that office work clearly wasn’t for me. I worked as a sales assistant for a while, I taught English abroad for a while, then I turned a hobby into self-employment. Which was fine, except that I was flat broke all the time, had intermittent mental health struggles, and ended up temping to make some much-needed cash.

      And I discovered that not all offices are the same.

      Several years on, I’ve moved up in the field I accidentally fell into. I work in a fulfilling and challenging role in an organisation whose work I respect, I have a decent salary, and am never expected to work beyond core working hours so I can pursue the things I enjoy – my hobbies and travel – outside work. Sure it would be nice to have more time to focus on fun stuff, but if at any point I decide that’s a priority, I always have the option to quit my job and “pursue my dream” again. For the moment though, I’m okay with not being poor.

      1. KR*

        Yes! Not all offices are the same. I’ve been working traditional office jobs for years that also involve going out to the field and working with my hands occasionally. Best of both worlds.

    24. hbc*

      Honestly, people like that deserve to have this turned back against them. “I prefer getting my money from a corporation rather than tarnishing my passions with capitalism.” Or “I’m pretty sure that it would be tough to make a living off of your passion without the millions of office workers who [route trucks full of art supplies/keep the internet working/whatever] and probably feel like they still have souls.”

    25. helpless desk guy*

      don’t feel bad. just make a note of it, and once you’re comfortably retired and enjoying the fruits of your labors, and your artist friend is still living in a cramped apartment with messy roommate trying to make ends meet wondering where his next months rent will come from, be sure to point out to your friend that you’re sure glad you had that soul sucking job.

    26. LunaLena*

      I’m a graphic designer, so a lot of people assume that my big dream is to eventually leave my workplace and become a freelancer with all the trimmings: being my own boss, working on passion projects, creating my own schedule and taking off whenever I want, etc. They’re surprised when I respond that no, actually I prefer my 8-5 office job, and I have no desire to freelance full-time and would only consider it if I won the lotto.

      Aside from what others have said about stable income and benefits, there are a lot of reasons I don’t freelance. Freelancing isn’t just about doing the work you love; it also means you’re the customer service rep, accounts payable/receivable, business owner/manager, tax accountant, etc. I don’t want to spend my time chasing down clients who haven’t paid their bills, I became a graphic designer because I want to graphic design. Being in an office job, where there are other people around to handle the other stuff, means that that’s what I get to do.

      In addition to that, I’ve found that freelance work is just not for me. I did the work-as-a-contractor-from-home thing for a short period of time, and found that it was very very bad for me. I personally enjoy having a physical space that is away from my home, so I can keep work and personal life separate and maintain a good balance. When I worked from home, I couldn’t keep it separate, and I ended up working the entire day and skipping meals constantly. There are some people who can make it work, but I simply can’t, and there’s nothing wrong with acknowledging that and consciously choosing a healthier option.

      I do freelance work on the side occasionally, but when I do it really is for fun and because I feel like it. Knowing it’s not my main source of income keeps it stress-free and means I can pick and choose only the project that sound interesting to me, and that’s just the way I like it.

      1. Queen of the File*

        I wish I had heard this before preparing for a career in a freelance-heavy field. You really do have to be reasonably good at all the roles you mentioned in order to make it work. Personally, I couldn’t handle the self-promotion and networking.

    27. Kenzi Wood*

      I’m sorry this happened! Just like freelance/starting a business, office jobs are better suited to some people. I don’t think we should disparage anybody who chooses either path. Both have benefits and downsides.

      I did jump from a 9-to-5 to starting my own biz, and as it turns out, I like it SO much better than being in an office. I think us freelancers tend to get passionate about decrying the 9-to-5 because we didn’t realize, at the time, how wrong it was for us. I think we hope that our realization might help others who secretly feel like they aren’t in the right place.

      But shaming of any kind shouldn’t be happening. You need to be where it’s best for you. Everybody should keep an open mind and understand that office life is fine for many, many people. I’m just not one of them. :)

    28. Angela*

      Honestly I’ve seen the opposite- I’m the only one in a group of friends with a typical 9-5 office job, and I feel bad because they’re the ones always struggling to go to events, not knowing their schedules very far in advance, not sure if they can take time off work, and having to work weekends. Even though one of them is paid very well and has a rewarding, very unique job, they still end up missing out on things because of schedule constraints. For them, getting the weekend off is always iffy. More than once I’ve gone to something and a friend has to miss out or arrive half way through because of their work schedule.

      So I’m very thankful for my office job. I know what time I can leave each day, I can stay a bit late or leave a bit early if needed, and I know I have weekends to enjoy and go to concerts, events, birthdays, what have you. I have a cube I can decorate in fun ways and the dress code is pretty relaxed, so I can have fun with that too.

      But most importantly, for me work is what enables me to live the rest of my life. My work *isn’t* my life, so it’s okay if it’s boring from time to time. That’s the way I look at it!

    29. I don’t post often*

      Just want to throw in my two cents as someone who had a really awesome job in my earl and mid 20s. I thought at the time I had that job, “ugh. What am I going to do if I every have to work in teapot finance, that sounds SO boring. How do people go to work everyday?” Then in 2008 when I was laid off, the best job I could find was in teapot finance. I took because the bills had to be paid. Guess what? Jobs in teapot finance are stable- no job insecurity every 18 months, no serving at Will with a member of Congress- benefits are great, healthcare is awesome, and 401ks are extremely good. Oh and working for a large company means that, yes sometimes you are just a number, but raises are more likely, FMLA is always offered, and there is probably some type of maternity leave. 10 years later as a parent I also appreciate the steady hours. No 2am phone calls. Always home at breakfast and dinner. Never thought I would be here 10 years later but I wouldn’t go back.

    30. vampire physicist*

      The responses to this were really interesting actually not only to hear that it’s a common experience, but also the different directions it comes from – both people in more outdoor/physical jobs, and people in artistic/freelance jobs.
      But yeah, I tend to go with a general “different things work for different people, and stability and a reasonable work/life balance are my priorities, but it’s not for everyone.”

    31. Art3mis*

      I remember once my hairstylist say she could never work in an office. I said I could never work on my feet all day let alone with the public. I don’t think she was putting office work down any more than I was putting down what she does. Different strokes.

      1. Not So NewReader*

        Yep. Agreed. I could not sit down, I had to be up and moving around. A while back I figured out older me now needed to sit down. The only time I can picture me commenting like this is if a person was complaining about their job. In other words, it would be hidden support of sorts, such as, “I have no idea how you do it. I would have given up a long time ago because of not being able to sit all the time. Then this New Thing is now happening? I’d be over the edge.”

      2. KR*

        Hoo boy agreed about not working with the public. Working for my company in my position means I can focus on my work and I don’t have to deal with external customers at all because there’s a whole customer service division of the company that’s completely separate from what I do. I hate working with the public even though I’m pretty good at it and being in stable job at an extremely large company means I have the freedom to turn down opportunities to work with the public

        1. Art3mis*

          Our customer service department pays better than my job and I am still not interested in working there. No thank you.

    32. Damn it, Hardison!*

      A relative once went on and on about how she could never work in an office job, it was so boring. Blah blah blah. Then asked me for money, because she was unemployed. The irony was lost on her.

    33. KR*

      I tend to roll my eyes a bit at that type of talk. I work one of those office jobs in a role that is very much about money and I love it. I love working with financials and making money for my team & my company and they pay me well for it.

      Also, I am a person who really values security. My mental health really deteriorates without a job and a way to make my own money and I love having a stable income. It gives me piece of mind. Some people are willing to sacrifice to be in a creative field like podcasting/freelancing but you’re no less a person for wanting something more stable. I think when your friend says stuff like this she may be trying to make herself feel better about her position and not realize she is inadvertently dissing you. I think you could light-heartedly say something like “Oy! I’m currently working one of those jobs and I love it! Don’t hate!”

      1. twig*

        As a fellow state uni worker, let me just say on all of our behalf: “F*ck those MOtherf*ckers” (sorry that’s my automatic outrage response these days).

        Education is important. Especially state funded education.

      2. DerJungerLudendorff*

        Yeah, how dare you take a paycheck in exchange for public services. *eyeroll*

    35. MissDisplaced*

      No… but I come from a very working class blue-collar family and they often make comments about my “office” work because they honestly do not understand what it is I actually do for a living. But it’s also an education thing, because I’m the only one in my family to have gone this far in college (master’s degree) while most of them only have high school, and several didn’t even finish high school. So, often I do hear the whole parroting of the “college is a waste of money” talk as well. It’s annoying.

    36. Pommette!*

      Oh yeah!
      I am (desperately) trying to leave an exciting and rewarding “passion” field for an office job. The precarity and unpredictable (but predictably long) hours have eroded my love for the field and my ability feel enthusiasm for my work and, at this point, pretty much anything at all. I realized that I actually enjoy some of the mundane tasks that make up a small part of my role, and relish the prospect of spending more of my time doing similar, if more complex work. Goodbye, passion field!
      I have started to tell people in my life, and have been shocked by the reactions. Even people who know me well enough to know that I am deeply miserable and far from thriving act as if making the transition to “boring” office work were some great tragedy. It’s disturbing.
      There’s definitely a classist element to the reactions. I was raised to think that I could be anything, that my career (not job) would define me, and that working for the money was “crass” – a set of assumptions that have made leaving much harder. My parents obviously feel a great loss about not being able to brag about my interesting job anymore.
      Like, you people do realize that lots of things you enjoy and benefit from are run by people doing “boring” jobs in offices, right? And that those people get to go home and do interesting things in their free time?

    37. Muriel Heslop*

      Heck no! I teach middle school. Most people physically recoil or shudder then say, “That sounds horrible!” or “Better you than me!” when they hear what my job is. Some just make a face. Rarely people will say, “That must be so rewarding!” but they usually don’t mean it or are really old.

      That said: I couldn’t go back to an office job. But I do miss being able to pee whenever I want.

      1. That Girl From Quinn's House*

        That is my #1 requirement for my next job, being allowed to go to the bathroom reasonably around the time I need to.

    38. Mama Bear*

      Some people see it as selling out or it’s simply not something they would enjoy. Good for them if they have other options. Good for you if you like an office and a steady 9-5. There are struggles being a freelancer that I no longer want, though the flexibility was nice.

      My response would vary on the source. A close friend or family member I would tell that I am actually happy in my job and I want them to stop the negativity about my profession. A podcaster I would ignore.

    39. Interplanet Janet*

      This is one of those things that human beings do without thinking.

      The most common example that I see is people talking about whether or not they did/will go back to work after becoming parents. It’s a real choice, with pros and cons, and it feels kind of loaded in a way that makes it a Choice-with-a-capital-C. So people kind of … keep talking through their choice. I think they’re kind of half talking to themselves with this stuff. Their brain says, “if you hadn’t gone back to work, you could go on that field trip to the zoo with your first grader,” and the logic that they already freaking thought through says, “yeah, but then my brain wouldn’t get to solve coding puzzles and we wouldn’t be able to go on vacation to London next summer.” And then sometimes, because humans are sometimes lacking in useful filters, the rebuttal comes out their mouths.

      So maybe your friends with no benefits that are painting street art for tips (which I know is an exaggeration) look at your benefits and regular paycheck and think to themselves, “self, if you took an office job, you too could have those niceties in your life” and then they remind themselves of the reasons they made a different choice, and verbalize those reasons.

    40. alphabet soup*

      Not put down, but judged. When I was younger, I had a lot of creative, artistic friends, and we were all very anti-establishment and self-righteous. When I got to my late twenties, it was hard for me to admit to myself that I was tired of living paycheck to paycheck and not being able to afford groceries. I felt like a sellout, but I gave in and joined the corporate world. I was so surprised to discover that the work wasn’t soul-sucking and dreadful, but instead I found new ways to apply my creativity. And I learned that just because someone works in an office, it doesn’t mean they’re not creative– a lot of my co-workers are musicians or writers or painters, but you just wouldn’t know it unless you get to know them. And of course, I really like having stability in my life and being able to pay my bills and occasionally buy nice things.

      I admire the creative folks who manage to make a living from their art, but sometimes that sounds really exhausting to me. I have a friend who makes a living as a freelance dance instructor– she loves her work and says she could never work in an office because she can’t sit still all day. But she works 7 days a week and sometimes the only way she’s able to make rent is by eating nothing but eggs and canned beans all month. Sometimes it seems like she’s living to work, instead of working to live, you know?

      I like being able to work M-F, and then on weekends I read philosophy and write poetry and don’t have to worry about how I’m going to make money from that. It’s nice.

    41. ECHM*

      I love my office job. It’s part-time but people are really flexible and friendly, and it’s a good use of my skills. While I miss the job I had where I was out in the community much more, this is a good place for me at this time in my life.

    42. Professional Merchandiser*

      I hate office work, and that’s why I do what I do. HOWEVER, I don’t look down on people who work in offices, where would we be without good office workers, or good retail folks, or good servers for that matter? I get a lot of comments about my line of work, too. This is something you either love or hate.

    43. Office Cube Dweller*

      In the past few years I’ve had three separate friends leave their corporate jobs to pursue their artistic dreams. During this time they’ve been quite pushy that I too should “become my own boss” and “follow my creative dreams”, to the point where it’s been annoying to hang out with them at times.

      However, also in the past few years, I’ve had enough PTO to take 2-3 paid vacations a year, was able to use 2 weeks of paid sick leave for a health emergency, became vested in my company’s pension plan, and have never once had to work on a weekend.

      If I had a side career I was passionate about I might have considered doing my own thing, but as my creative activities (dance and running) don’t really lend themselves to paying careers, I felt like they were only pushing me so we’d all be in the same boat? But as it is truly I prefer being able to clock out at 5pm and have my evenings and weekends all to myself!

    44. Elizabeth West*

      I don’t, because I know so many writers with day jobs. Or who had day jobs. In fact, I just listened to a podcast interview with Chuck Wendig and he talked about trying to get a mortgage as a freelancer. Even though he was making fairly good money, they were like, “Nope,” and so he got a regular job. Then when he got the mortgage, he quit, lol.

      Because of the way we devalue creative work, it’s not possible for a lot of folks to only do that. There’s nothing wrong with doing office work to sustain yourself, even if the things you like to do aren’t necessarily creative.

      1. Pommette!*

        The tension between writing and having a day job is a really interesting one – and maybe more interesting and complicated than most tensions between artistic practice work and laboring for money work?

        I understand that writing is a craft that can only be perfected through a lot of practice, and that it takes time to write and revise any piece of writing. And I understand why many writers who can avoid it having a bill-paying day-job do so, or have a job that is writing focused (like teaching writing). And I respect that, and do think that we would gain a lot of great art if we valued and supported artistic and other kinds of creative pursuits better…

        But at the same time, some of the most interesting writing I’ve seen has been produced by people who had to work for money, and did, and experienced interesting things in the process that they subsequently wrote about.

        I’d be interested to hear your thoughts on that!

    45. Half-Caf Latte*

      I feel like I see this more and more from the MLM huns. Lots of “my job isn’t a pyramid scheme, a pyramid scheme is CEO- managers – staff” “My MLM is so great because I set my own hours /work from my phone/don’t have to get dressed and go to an office every day.”

      It’s mom-shaming flaming garbage.

      1. The New Wanderer*

        Ugh, exactly. Somehow they never mention having to fork over money up front for the product and then having to push product on every single person around them and monthly quotas, plus the recruiting! And if all their friends did it too, who would they even sell to??

      2. FormerlyArlington*

        Yes, and they always wear tee shirts bedazzled with things like #momboss and act as if they truly “have it all.” But few of those MLMs are profitable and I hate how they use mom guilt to lure new moms away from their oppressive cubicles and family health insurance with false promises.

    46. Anne (with an “e”)*

      I’m a teacher. I’ve heard all my life, “How could you be a teacher?!?! Oh, the horror!” Also, many people think teachers are stupid and beneath them. I’ve run into this attitude my entire career from numerous people, including family members. Well, I like teaching. I like my job. I like my days off. I like my steady paycheck. I like my benefits. I like my pension. Overall, life is good. :) Also, it takes all types to make the world go around.

      1. tangerineRose*

        So weird that they say that. I mean, we need teachers in society. If they don’t want to teach, they should be glad that you and others are teaching.

    47. Moonbeam Malone*

      I’ve noticed a lot of people in creative freelance assume freelance is just the universal ideal for every creative person, when it actually really depends! I hate freelance! Some creative people do still function best with more structure and stability. I guess the assumption is sort of a side effect of a human tendency to try to place everyone into broad categories instead of recognizing that within any given group you’ll still find a really diverse array of traits and preferences.

      1. Fortitude Jones*

        I’m a writer, singer, and actor, and I absolutely function best with stability. I grew up poor and never wanted to struggle like that as an adult, so I went and got a day job that led to me finding careers – I’m thriving now and get to live the life I’ve always dreamed of. I wouldn’t have all of the amazing things I have now (e.g. extensive and fabulous wardrobe, a beautiful apartment in a luxury building in the bustling downtown of a major city, decent healthcare and a job with great leave time policies, etc.) if I did the freelance thing.

    48. DAMitsDevon*

      I would also say that not all office jobs are the same, so putting all of them down seems unwise as opposed to just the ones that aren’t your particular cup of tea seems unwise? I work an office job for a nonprofit, so it’s definitely not all about the money (lol). However, having been in other types of public health/nonprofit jobs where I’d sometimes have to work night shifts or go offsite a lot, I’ve come to appreciate many of the things that come with a more traditional, 9-5 office job. For instance, working regular hours rather than doing shift work is a lot better for my health. I also had a major health crisis earlier this year and having a full time job with benefits meant that I had sick leave to use so I could still get paid and that my medical expenses didn’t bankrupt me because my employer provided health insurance covered most of them.

      1. bunniferous*

        I have the best and the worst of all worlds. Half my job is in an office, half out on the road (locally) and I do NOT punch a time clock. Sometimes I have time for my creative endeavors, and I make pretty decent money. BUT trying to plan even a weekend trip is hard. I went to a three day conference and had to haul my laptop with me and take care of stuff that came up during it. Sometimes I am in front of a computer till late. AND I have no benefits. BUT I have an awesome boss and I love the job because of the variety. Every job has its good and bad points. If you can live, have a roof over your head, food to eat and you like what you do, you are golden, no matter what form it takes.

    49. Miss Pantalones en Fuego*

      I have one of those jobs that people are always impressed by (archaeologist) but it’s damn hard to make a steady living in this field. I daydream about getting an office job where I can be indoors and not have to look for a new job every three or four months. People who denigrate office jobs are probably suffering from the same misunderstandings as those who put down restaurant work as easy.

      1. Windchime*

        I think that a lot of people who have never worked in an office are picturing the old “typing pool” images of years past. Or imagining sitting at a desk, collating papers or doing other boring things like that. In my office job, I feel like I have the best of both worlds; I’m a SQL developer who also creates reports, so I sit in a comfortable cubicle, have great benefits and pretty good pay, and I do creative thinking and technical stuff.
        I think it’s just hard for people to picture if they’ve never done interesting, creative office work. And even if it’s not interesting or creative, I’ve done things like picking pears and building fences. I’d much rather sit in my comfy office chair and sip tea while I think about how to solve my latest challenge.

    50. Upstater-ish*

      Hmmmm most of what I hear on his site particularly is that office jobs are the real 9-5 M-F jobs while jobs in retail are the thing you do when you can’t do anything else. How many people write about office jobs as “my first real job”.

      That said I live in Albany NY (the capital of NYS) and state office jobs are the jobs to have.

      1. Wake up !!*

        Couldn’t agree more! I had to crack up at the commenter above who mentioned “classist beliefs about what real work is.” It had me nodding along before I realized she meant…the belief that office work isn’t “real” work.

        At the end of the day, I just can’t imagine being upset or offended by an offhand comment by someone who doesn’t see themselves in my line of work. This is not a real problem.

    51. Polymer Phil*

      “Cubicle farm” workplaces all look the same even if the people in them have very different jobs. It’s easy for an outsider to get the impression that everyone is sitting there filling out forms and doing dull paperwork all day long.

      My first job was with a big company in a technical field, and I had little contact with their office workers. I really had no idea what they did all day, and I had a mental picture of a Dilbert cartoon. I gained an appreciation for office workers when I moved to a smaller company where I frequently interacted with them, and learned that they don’t all do the same thing!

  6. Nonnie*

    Anon for this one – 

    Ok internet friends, I need some help. I’ve looked through the archives, but haven’t found anything that quite fits my situation. This is a long one, and the tldr version is I have a crush on a coworker, and basically need to be told it’s all in my head, and I’m reading too much into it. I have NO desire for anyone in my life to ever know about this.

    Some detail. I am single, in my late 20s, he is married, late 30s. My crush would be inappropriate for no other reason than that he’s, you know, MARRIED, but there are a few other factors. I do not report to him in any way, nor he to me, but we work together frequently. 

    He’s very friendly, and honestly, is probably giving off big brother vibes, but I don’t have a big brother, I have a little one, and our relationship is not the best, so I don’t have anything to compare it to. Historically, most of my friends have also been female, so it’s a completely different interaction. 

    Where I’m having trouble is how he acts towards me. Always perfectly polite and respectful. I live in the south, so I’m used to being called pet names. It’s just something that happens, and I don’t mind. Yesterday, he came to get a snack out of my office. They’re there for everyone, and that’s where we keep them. He referred to me as “our beautiful (my job title).” This is the second time this has happened.

    Another time, which has also happened twice, the second being yesterday, his previous job came up in conversation, as did the benefits they offered employees, and their families. In explaining one of the benefits, he goes, “If you and I were married…” The example would have worked just as well as “My wife and I…”

    I have ZERO plans to ever let anyone know about my crush, but I mostly need advice about how to continue to treat him in a professional and friendly manner. 

    1. AnonEMoose*

      The Paging Dr. Nerdlove blog has some really good advice about dealing with an unwanted/inappropriate crush. Essentially, his take on it is that trying to suppress the feelings makes them stronger, in part because suppressing them attaches too much importance to them and encourages your mind to dwell on it more.

      So, his advice is to instead mentally acknowledge the feelings and treat them as unimportant. Basically, when you start feeling the crush feelings, you think something like “Ok, this is a thing i’m feeling right now. Now about [something work-related] or [grocery list], or…” Treat it as a thing that isn’t really all that significant.

      Another tactic you can use in combination is to spend some time thinking about the qualities he has that you find attractive. For example, one of the reasons Sir Patrick Stewart is a celebrity crush for me is his speaking voice…I could listen to him read the phone book and enjoy it. So, maybe you like his eyes or his smile or whatever. Consider it as helping you figure out things you might want in a partner (if you actually want a partner – not everyone does!).

      And maybe identify some qualities he has that would get REALLY annoying after awhile (pretty much everybody’s got those, too!).

      Meanwhile, it’s ok to keep conversations with him mostly work-related and relatively brief (if your work doesn’t require otherwise).

      1. Fortitude Jones*

        Meanwhile, it’s ok to keep conversations with him mostly work-related and relatively brief (if your work doesn’t require otherwise).

        This is what I did with my last office crush. I was single, he was dating someone, and after I acknowledged the feelings and told him about them, I cut off any non-work related conversations (he used to walk me home from work and we’d have chats about our personal lives – this started before the girlfriend came into the picture). Ultimately, he ended up telling me a really messed up story about how he broke up with said girlfriend earlier this year under the guise of wanting to know my opinion as to whether or not he was an ass to her. I confirmed he was, and that was the end of that crush, lol. I thought he was a decent guy, but found out he’s actually a user and semi-gigolo.

        I could smack myself for falling for his nonsense.

        1. Dusty Bunny*

          “I thought he was a decent guy, but found out he’s actually a user and semi-gigolo.” I agree — there’s nothing that snuffs out the sparks of a crush quite like a cold dose of reality. I try to force myself to find that reality sooner rather than later, so it squashes the crushy feelings and I can get on with life.

          1. Elizabeth West*

            I like to imagine my crushes have drastically different ideologies from me, like they support political candidates I find repugnant. Or they have some habit I can’t live with, like secret smoking.

            Unfortunately, my current crush is f***ing perfect, so that doesn’t work, lol.

            3. Dust Bunny*

              I found out my agonizing college crush had mega issues with women and, wow, did that sucker dry up like a slug in salt. No amount of in-denial mental gymnastics could explain it away.

          2. Fortitude Jones*

            See, the warm fuzzies came out of nowhere with me – seriously, one day after he walked me home, I had an epiphany like that scene in Clueless where Cher is standing in front of the fountain and realizes she loves Josh, lol. I didn’t think stuff like that happened in real life, but it does. And when I determined it was never going to happen between us, I actually shed tears! Ugh – I could go the rest of my life without having this happen to me again, lol.

      2. Nonnie*

        I will have to give that blog a look! I think I’ve heard or it, but haven’t ever read it.

      3. Kendra*

        This is great advice!

        I also find it helpful to remind myself, “just because I feel a thing, that doesn’t mean I have to act on the thing.” You can still be your true, authentic self without expressing every single thing you think or feel out loud. Some of it can be just for you, inside your own head. (For instance, what I’m *really* thinking during meetings often does not need to see the light of day, but it does keep me entertained – and awake – and really, that’s all it needs to do.)

        1. Alice*

          You can still be your true, authentic self without expressing every single thing you think or feel out loud

          +1000000

    2. boredatwork*

      He’s being creepy and weird. My southern, married husband, would never dream of any of those interactions. You’re entitled to your feelings, but he’s being overly familiar.

      My work BFF is a married man. He has never given me a pet name, or called me “beautiful”. Just yuck.

      My guess is he likes the positive female validation and is preying on your “crush” vibes.

      1. LSP*

        This.

        My old boss was also my best work friend, and he kept it professional at all times. We are both married with kids (only 2 weeks apart), and he never commented on my looks, and never got as familiar as this guy, despite how well we got along.

        This guy is… ew!

      3. Nonnie*

        There are two guys who have made a comment about me being beautiful. This guy, and one who is old enough to be my grandpa, and who likes to tell me what his grandkids are doing at school.

        1. Vincaminor*

          In both cases, I’d recommend an easy-toned, “Just Nonnie is fine.” (Whether they’re calling you “our beautiful Job Title” or “the beautiful Nonnie.”) It doesn’t need to be hostile—in fact, avoid that so you don’t set off defensive justifications! — but shut that down. You’re not there for your looks, you’re there for your awesome competence.

      4. Autumnheart*

        I second that this is inappropriate “fan the flames” behavior coming from this guy.

        A crush is a crush, and I’m sure this isn’t the first time you’ve had to squelch an attraction to someone who was off the market for one reason or another. We’ve all been there. But when someone picks up on it and makes things more emotionally fraught when you’re trying to maintain professional distance, that’s pretty manipulative on their part.

        I have a coworker who is literally My Ideal Man(tm) while being totally unavailable for multiple reasons, and I basically had to blank him entirely until I was able to compartmentalize sufficiently. That basically wrecked any chance of being work buddies, but I feel a heck of a lot better knowing I was maintaining appropriate professional distance. And eventually the crush faded into background radiation, and I can appreciate the perk of a Work Hottie without feeling like I’m going to torpedo my career.

      5. Muriel Heslop*

        Ditto to all of this.

        OP, if he was your husband and he was telling a younger, unmarried woman at work that she was beautiful and vaguely referring to marrying her, how would you feel? Maybe if you reframe it that way some of the bloom will fall off the rose?

        Good luck. I’ve been in your situation and it was not fun. I was so glad when my crush quit and moved across the country.

        1. Batgirl*

          This!
          Do you think he’s going home and saying to his wife “I have such fun hanging out with my beautiful coworker.” Either your name is verboten or he has mentionitis about you.
          Being called beautiful out of the blue is quite the powerful drug to some of us (Yeah, me; I wasn’t that pretty in high school) but intellectually I resent it for precisely that reason. Oh, they know.
          With married guys it always helps me to picture the at home scene or wonder if he would say that with his wife present.
          Let me place a little bet: how often does he mention her positively? How would he react if you said ‘Hey how’s your wife?’ more often?

      6. R.D*

        Yep. Yuck.

        If you didn’t have before these interactions, how would you have viewed them? I find them both creepy, but just borderline enough that I’d be questioning myself, which is probably intentional.

    3. Bee's Knees*

      As a fellow southerner, I can second the names thing. That does seem a little… much though.

    4. LSP*

      To be clear here: He is acting unprofessional and inappropriate. Think of it like this: If you were not at all physically attracted to him, would you read his behavior as creepy?

      Calling a coworker beautiful is not appropriate, like, ever. Your physical appearance shouldn’t be mentioned at work whatsoever. He also could have said “our genius (job title).”

      Making the reference to “If you and I were married…” while discussing benefits is strange, but don’t read anything into it, other than this guy is a boundary-crosser.

      1. Not So NewReader*

        Annnd he has probably done this to other women. He is sounding like he has “practiced” this before. Getting a little grossed out here, OP?

        I’d cut him off, “well we are not married so that is a bad example, let’s avoid that example again.”
        Or, “If I were male would you call me “our handsome (job title)?”

        In the process of correcting these statements I can almost promise you that your crushing will dissipate because you will see more clearly exactly what is going on here.

        I married a guy that I worked with. He acted way differently than this, none of the coyness etc. He was sincerely interested in me and what was going on in my life. I was the same and we talked about life stuff, interests and so on. I suspect the guy in your story is one who cuddles up to other women often.

    5. Bananatiel*

      Granted, I’m not from the south but I’d say that you’re also perfectly in the right to call him out on the pet names and ask not to be called by them. The “our beautiful (job title)” feels particularly inappropriate to me.

    6. Robert in SF*

      I am going to be giving some practical advice here…I read it in a book of advice years ago:
      If you find yourself attracted to someone you really shouldn’t be (your friend’s spouse, or in this case a co-worker), whenever you are with them (in person that is), focus on their nostrils.

      Don’t stare, of course, but use their nostrils as your focal point when conversing or otherwise with them.

      Unless noses are your kink, you’ll find that it really puts you off from being attracted to them. I guess nostrils are just not sexy and can help cement that ‘unsexiness’ for that person in your mind to replace the crush.

    7. animaniactoo*

      Advice I’ve seen given before for breaking a crush: Imagine him at home, being a slob around the house. The dirty dishes left in the sink, etc.

      Most of the time, our crushes are idealized versions of the person we’re looking at, so if you can envision him in a less-idealized form (and frankly one that might be a turnoff), it helps to reduce the pull.

      Separately, anytime he does something along the lines of “If you and I were married…”, cut it off immediately. “Wait, what? No, that would just be weird. Just explain it to me in terms of you and your wife.” Especially do this because he’s either low-key hitting on you, or just plain creating an inappropriate atmosphere without realizing it. Either way – back yourself out of purposely and definitively. Out loud.

      You could also try toning down the “This is our beautiful [job title]” by deflecting it with something like “He says that about all the women (assuming you’re a woman) who have access to the snacks [or insert other thing that he goes through you/your office for]”. See what happens when you make it clear to him that you’re not taking the flattery personally. If he backs off of it or doesn’t really change it, fine – as long as this is actually his behavior with other people – note that, people, NOT just women – in the office. If he escalates OR it really is just you or just women, you’re going to need to tell him that you’re not comfortable with it and to please stop. If you need to tell him to stop, do you need some scripts for doing that?

      1. Nonnie*

        I don’t think he’s doing it to make me uncomfortable, and if I did, or it gets worse, I can go to my boss about it. We have a great working relationship, and after his head finished exploding, he’d take care of it. He doesn’t say it to all the women, because there’s only one woman in the office area of where we work. She’s mid 50s, and has been here forever.

        1. animaniactoo*

          Hmmmm. With that info, I think that you need to address it with him – because you focused on what he’s doing to you as a woman, not to you as a person, and if I read that right, he’s treating you differently than he treats the men in the office.

          You can start start deflecting lightly on that basis. “Ha! You know, if you’re going to introduce me like that, you should really be introducing Jack as our handsome [job title]!”

          He needs to tone it down, fast, and you need to give him the feedback that it needs to happen so he can act on that. It’s not about whether he’s doing it to make you uncomfortable, it’s about the fact that it IS making you uncomfortable whether he means to or not, so do not let his intent be the focus of your concern.

          If some light deflection does not handle it, you’ll probably need to have a bigger picture more serious tone conversation – and when I say conversation, I mean an under 2 minute exchange, not a long involved thing. Do you need some scripts for what that would look like?

    8. Lucy*

      He sounds … potentially gross. Married and flirting isn’t a cool combination, but sometimes people do it because “everyone knows it couldn’t be real”. If he knew it was actually thrilling you, he’d reset proper boundaries, surely?

      What do other people in your workplace think of your interactions? Is it fairly normal or would it be noticeable? Any danger of looking unprofessional?

      I do know what you mean about “big brother” vibes and I recognise that dynamic. But I think you may benefit from shoring up the boundaries he has blurred, so maybe when he talks about hypothetical marriage you breezily say “oh yeah, how is Wife? Did you go to that Pirate Festival you were telling me about?”

      1. Nonnie*

        It would help if he ever talked about her or their family in more than the vaguest of terms. I have never heard him refer to her by name. I think they have kids? I’m not sure. No pictures of anyone in his office. It’s hard to ask about them when I don’t really have anything to ask.

        1. Lucy*

          hoo boy – that doesn’t make me feel any better about his behaviour. I wonder what you see in him!

          1. AnonEMoose*

            Yeah, that raises some flags for me, too. I mean, I’ve been known to be flirtatious (not usually in the workplace, though!), but I also talk openly about my husband (and of course, in our social circles, people know him and know that we are what’s sometimes described as “very married.”)

            But the flirtation plus the not talking about the wife/kids at all…that’s not a good combination. Still, I think the OP should deal with her own feelings and his behavior as related but separate issues. She can deal with her crush, and also consider whether or how she wants to deal with his behavior.

            1. Mama Bear*

              Agreed. I think that some lines in the sand are necessary here. What may be somewhat acceptable socially isn’t acceptable professionally, so start there. There are a number of posts about how to redirect people when they cross boundaries, so you can have a script in your head the next time he crosses yours.

        3. Sutemi*

          Yellow flag, that suggests he is trying to keep his personal life walled off so he doesn’t have to acknowledge them at work. Much easier to flirt if they don’t know any of the details of his home life.

        4. Rezia*

          You can ask things to remind him (and you) of how real they are. “What’s your wife’s name again?” then once you find out “What did you and [wife’s name] do this weekend?” “How are your kids doing?” etc.

    9. Lady Dedlock*

      Crushes are normal and happen all the time. They also usually go away on their own. Personally, I’m of the mind that a crush can be quietly enjoyed until it goes away, as long as no one notices it. If you’re looking your best on meeting days, well, that’s not a bad thing. You just need to aim for being your friendly, professional, normal self around him.

      Also, it’s very human to like people who like us. He does seem to like you, so it’s natural that your mind would turn that way. But it’s good to remember that fondness doesn’t necessitate romance.

    10. MintLavender*

      Referring to you as “our beautiful -job title-” is wildly inappropriate and insulting. Honestly, my recommendation is to say that to him next time it happens. He should know that that’s the case, for his own professional good, but the side bonus here is that it will change your relationship, and I’d bet dollars to donuts that one of two things will happen:

      1) He has a bad reaction to being called out on his overtly shitty behavior, which will make you like him less, or
      2) He has a great reaction and stops treating you that way, which will make him treat you more professionally, which should also help with you managing your feelings.

      Seriously. Being referred to as “beautiful” by someone at work is *really* undermining you. If he’s into you, it honestly makes it worse. This is stuff that my (abusive sexual harasser) ex-boss did when he “liked” staff. It’s gross and infantilizing and condescending. So, just reflect on the fact that a good guy wouldn’t be doing that to you at work. It should help with helping you overcome the “fun, exciting” part of the crush and let the realities of *this guy* settle in.

    11. The Ginger Ginger*

      I second a lot of what other people are saying. But this past post might help you too.
      https://www.askamanager.org/2019/02/i-have-a-crush-on-my-employee.html

      I left a comment on this old one that I’ll paste below here because I still think it’s the best way of banishing a crush. To sum up, stop giving this guy so much room in your brain.

      “Don’t entertain them (meaning thoughts/feelings about your crush). I always think of it as a revolving door in a hotel. The thought spins in, but you don’t let it book a room or sit at the bar. Have a bouncer spin it right on back out onto the street. (Ha, that analogy just kept going.)

      In the same vein as this advice – don’t fantasize. One of the “fun” things about a crush is daydreaming (even innocently) about the person. What would it be like to date them; how would they act on vacation, what would they say if I flirted, how would I approach them for dinner, what if they met my dog, etc, etc. That all feeds a crush. It doesn’t sound like you’re doing this, but if you ARE, stop. If you catch yourself, redirect your thoughts to something else. That’ll help starve the crush.”

    12. Samwise*

      Maybe this will help: Your crush is being inappropriate. Being in the south has nothing to do with it. I’ve been living and working in the south for over thirty years. It’s not appropriate in the south OR ANYWHERE.

      I don’t think he’s being massively inappropriate or doing anything reportable, just…he’s not thinking about his words.

      I think you go on being professional and friendly as you have been already. Pay attention to your own words and actions. When he says stuff like this, you can say something like, “Ooo, I feel uncomfortable /weirded out when you say that!” Hopefully that will get him to consider his words more carefully.

    13. AnonNotmyNormalName*

      I had a work crush for the first time last year. He was married, I am married and I was mortified at myself. It did pass with time. I took the advice given here to notice my feelings and then ignore them.

      Also, at one point he put a hand on my arm – I literally jumped out of my chair and across the room. Was it awkward? Yes, but it was also an unconscious, immediate response that this way spells danger. He respected the response and has never touched me again in any way. He’s very smart but he’s not without his faults and they became clearer as we worked more together and that’s helped a lot as well and I’m over the crush.

      Set up boundaries you are comfortable with and enforce them. It’s the best thing you can do. I had too many issues early in my career with things going sideways because I thought I was friends with a co-worker and he thought it could be something more. When it’s a married guy – I still don’t let my guard down because that’s gotten awkward too.

    14. Sam Sepiol*

      Oh my god thank you for posting this. I have a ridiculous crush on a colleague. Following!

    15. Anon Crush*

      I’m happily married and two years ago I was hit hard by a crush on a single co-worker. I sensed he liked me too, but he was always above board and never too flirty, etc. we became friends and I don’t believe he ever knew about the crush. He left my workplace, but we have kept in touch.

      Like most crushes, it faded over time. I did let myself enjoy the feeling of being crazy attracted to someone in a way I hadn’t felt since I was a teenager. It was fun, but because neither of us acted on anything, it was harmless.

    16. Lilysparrow*

      I am Southern. I have an older brother. He is not giving you older brother vibes. He is being flirty, which you said is inappropriate to the situation and something you do not want.

      I think probably he is correctly reading your attraction and enjoying the attention.

      There are several ways to shut this down and get it back on professional footing. Since you work together frequently and have a vested interest in keeping things friendly, I’d probably go with an in-the-moment “not having it” response any time he’s flirty. That could be a way or “eww” face, a verbal “nope!” or a quick contradiction, such as

      Him: “If we were married…”

      You: “We’re not!”

      Just keep breaking up the pattern instead of letting it go unchallenged. I think if he’s perceptive enough to have noticed the crush, then he’s perceptive enough to understand that you are drawing a line.

      If he’s actually of a predatory nature and testing boundaries, then this kind of thing will alert him that you’re not going to let stuff slide or get all murky. Shady people love murky boundaries.

      Other options remain open if this doesn’t work, of course. But it sounds like you’re in the nip-it-in-the-bud stage, so hopefully you can start small and leave the unspoken as such.

  7. Agent J*

    I started a new job a few months ago. My teammate started about 6 months before I did. The higher-ups have asked me to start stepping up to better manage our client’s projects. The client we serve is difficult and I have more experience in our particular niche of the industry. Teammate isn’t terrible at his job, he’s just checked out and it shows in his work. He got caught in some office politics when he first started and is pretty jaded about our manager, coworkers, and senior executives.

    I do see opportunities for improvement in the quality of work we provide our client. But I don’t want Teammate to feel like I’m acting like his new boss. How do I walk the fine line of demonstrating leadership without any official structure to support it or alienating my Teammate in the process?

    1. Not So NewReader*

      Use the word “we” instead of “I” as much as possible. “We need to x done Thursday and y done by Friday. Which one would you like, x or y?” I assume he is slacking which puts you as the one on top of things, offer him choices where you can.
      Understand in the end you probably will not accomplish what you want to accomplish here. That is he is probably going to end up unhappy with you at some point. This has nothing to do with you and everything to do with his status of “checked out”.

      The one thing I will say refuse to take the hit for his missed deadlines. “Boss, I have asked Bob three times for part B of our project. I have Part A done but I cannot do part C until Bob gives me Part B. How do you want me to handle this?” You can handle his shoddy work in a similar manner.

    2. Wonderer*

      Maybe tell him that you heard the higher-ups want to improve the management of these projects – then describe your ideas and ask for his thoughts on them? If he blows off the opportunity to be involved in the improvements, he probably won’t be as upset when you take the lead on implementing them.

      If he does give good input, then you’ve informally taken the lead on it and just make sure you credit him for his participation.

  8. Newt on a log*

    TLDR: My boss sucks and isn’t going to change (but he does plan to leave once his house sells to follow his wife who is working 6 hours away).

    I just received the major certification in my field. It takes a minimum of 5 years to get this certification. According to my professional organization’s annual salary survey this should come with a 30% raise due to my experience.
    It’s been 3 weeks since I passed the final certification exam so I approached my boss (Elmer) yesterday about a raise (most of my work is done at a different site so this was my first opportunity to have this conversation face to face with him).
    I brought up that I achieved this certification and been busting my rear on a major project for the last year in addition to my normal duties and he totally shut me down. Said I’m looking into what we did for Donald when he passed and I’ll get back to you. Donald works for a totally different business unit (doing the same thing) and told me that when he passed he was given a raise over 3 years (10% each year). Daffy works for the same business unit and everyone seems to forget that he gained this certification a few years ago and was given the raise all at once. Daffy also had a job offer at our major competition lined up and used that as leverage to get the raise.
    Because I know Elmer’s time at the company is limited (and his capital is limited because he is a poor manager) I have absolutely zero confidence he will be any kind of advocate for me (ordinarily I’d say I don’t think he’ll be effective but because he could be gone in a month I don’t have any confidence that he’ll even remember to take it anywhere).
    I have a few options. My dotted line supervisor (at remote site) has said she’s willing to advocate for me once Elmer is gone but doesn’t feel she can step into it until he’s gone. Our regional VP has seen and recognized the work I’ve been putting in and commented on it, so I believe I could go to her and she would advocate for me but that feels like a nuclear move.
    Obviously before I do anything I will give Elmer some time to do or not do whatever he’s going to but how long do I wait? Especially if I’m not hearing any updates (Elmer is a notoriously bad communicator).

    I should also say that Elmer has made it clear to the department that he plans to leave “shortly” as in, as soon as his house sells and it’s definitely on the market. Elmer’s wife took the job 6 hours away several months ago and it it with another division of the company so management knows that she has moved there. Although Elmer hasn’t said anything official to management about leaving (according to him in a staff meeting yesterday) I’m assuming that management is smart enough to see that wife moves, kids move, he’s traveling every weekend to see them, his time is limited.

    1. R*

      Don’t wait for Elmer’s house to sell. Act as you would if you knew he would stay forever. Otherwise you could be waiting forever for your raise. Congrats on certifying!

    2. fposte*

      Agreeing with what R says. In addition, when you say “According to my professional organization’s annual salary survey this should come with a 30% raise due to my experience,” do you mean people usually get a massive raise from their current employer with this certification, or people with this certification make 30% more? Unless it’s field standard to give the raise to people in situ, I wouldn’t assume that that’s going to be a current employer’s response to the new certification unless it was arranged beforehand. It might be smart for it to be, but that’s not the same thing as probable.

      Love the names, though. I think your manager sounds plain Goofy.

      1. Sled dog mama*

        Well it’s strange, most employers do give a raise upon getting the certification (it’s pretty expensive to get and maintain the certification due to continuing ed requirements) and mine has given the raise for the last two to get the certification but my manager seems to be treating it as well you agreed to work for us at $X when you didn’t have it so we’re going to ignore the fact that you could get an offer 30% more now and pay you what you agreed to 3 years ago.

        1. fposte*

          Oh, yeah, then it does sound like you’re getting individually screwed. I’d start looking elsewhere then; it sounds like it would be an easy departure to explain in interviews.

        2. Fortitude Jones*

          Not to defend your boss, but you said above:

          Daffy also had a job offer at our major competition lined up and used that as leverage to get the raise.

          This is why he got the 30% up front – he was planning on quitting. Your manager should at least give you the three year deal the other employee received, though, to be equitable.

        3. Seeking Second Childhood*

          Are you , sled dog MAMA, the first employee without a Y chromosome to achieve certification while workingthere? If yes, you may have something darker to confront than a lazy boss.

          1. Sled dog mama*

            Yes, I am in fact the only person in my position (certified or not) lacking a Y chromosome in a significant portion of my eastern US state. Only about 20% of the workforce in my field identifies as female.

    3. The Rain In Spain*

      Did he give you a timeline to get back to you? I would follow up with him after a reasonable amount of time (I imagine you have a better idea of what that would be in your environment- a week? two weeks?). If he still stalls you at that point, I would ask more concrete questions re the timeline, if there’s any additional info you can provide, if it would be helpful to loop in anyone else to advocate for you (like VP), etc.

      It doesn’t sound like at your company HR has a hand in these things- at my current organization my understanding is when someone obtains a certification for their job, there’s sort of a standard request process to get that raise put into place. I can’t say I’ve experienced it myself so I don’t know if it works any better, but I can say that I left my last job because no change in scope of duties/salary was forthcoming. I however made the mistake of waiting several MONTHS to give my notice and didn’t advocate strongly enough for myself. But it sounds like you have some great leadership on your side here so I hope it works out much better for you!

      1. Newt on a log*

        That’s the other side was he gave no timelines for anything and I find that unacceptable. When Daffy got his certification they pushed through his raise/counter offer in a week and if I had already gotten the certification before they hired me they would have found the money then to payme the 30% more

        1. The Rain In Spain*

          Then absolutely make sure you follow up after a reasonable amount of time has passed. Also, there’s no reason they can’t make the raise retroactive to when you achieved the certification!

        2. ..Kat..*

          Are you female? So, two men earned this certification and received significant raises. You earn this certification, and get …. nothing.

          Please job hunt for an employer who will appreciate what you have to offer.

        3. designbot*

          That could also be a cover for going around Elmer. If he doesn’t get back to you in a timely manner, it would make sense for your dotted line supervisor to step in.

        4. learnedthehardway*

          I think the key thing here is that Daffy had an offer in hand from a competitor. Might be worth your time to do a little job hunting. In fact, I’d strongly suggest it, and perhaps follow up with your manager to let him know you’re doing some “industry research” into compensation for people who have achieved their certification, if he hasn’t gotten back to you in 2 weeks time.

    4. Expand all Comments*

      You should give a copy of the certification to HR to ask them to update your file.
      I would also bring in donuts on Friday, and send out an email late Thursday to everyone and tell them to stop for Friday donuts/bagels by to celebrate your certification.
      Put a spotlight on it – so that Elmer can’t hide.

    5. Wonderer*

      Honestly, I d0n’t know your work environment but I would go around him and find a way to casually mention it to the regional VP. Mention that both Daffy and Donald received 30% raises as a result of this certification but that the impending departure of Elmer leaves you a little adrift about getting action on this.
      You definitely shouldn’t just wait this out – he might not leave at all, or it could be months, or someone new could come in and say that they need time to assess things. You need to get this formally noticed right away, by someone other than Elmer. What about HR?

    6. Annie Dumpling*

      Dont let Elmer make you think that you are being pushy or a problem by getting your due. He is being a bad manager, and his discomfort does not justify pushing your accomplishment under a rug and devaluing it because it is not a convenient time for him to do his actual job.

  9. Fortitude Jones*

    TLDR; Readers with instructional design degrees, what was your degree program like? What are you doing with your degree? Did you need to have graphic design skills before applying? If you didn’t get a degree in ID, but are working as one, how did you get into it and what field are you currently working in (e.g. consulting, teaching, corporate training, etc.)?

    This is the end of my fourth week at my new job, and I absolutely think I made the right choice in leaving my last company. Not only was my first paycheck AH-MA-ZING (yay 27% salary increases!), but the work is interesting, the people aren’t driving me crazy (yet), and I’m being treated like I’m an expert already, which is crazy because I’ve only been in this field for 18 months!

    I had another job offer that paid significantly more than what this position pays, so I was wondering if I would end up kicking myself for not taking it – nope. I’m good. The other job was in the same field as this one and my last, but it also had a heavy emphasis on project management in the tech sphere (I would have been handling the proposal process and doing all post-award follow ups with customers, including leading project implementation), and I think I would have been in way over my head there.

    The job I ended up choosing also scared me a bit because it’s newly created at a pretty well-known software company, and I am essentially being asked to come in and upend the way the SME’s and sales team approach their proposal process and writing. However, none of the SME’s or sales members that I’ve been coaching have pushed back on my suggestions, nor have the proposal managers I work with. In fact, a couple of the PM’s are asking for my assistance on several of their pending submissions, and my calendar is full. It’s so nice to have my skills utilized again, and I’ve gotten such positive feedback about my coaching from the SME’s/sales team and my direct manager, who relayed a really lovely compliment about me the other day during a team meeting from someone who’s above both of us on the company org chart.

    One comment in particular stood out to me, and it’s making me consider some things I hadn’t thought about before. A sales member that I was coaching told me my half hour session with him really opened his eyes to what the PM’s are looking for regarding the content he provides to us to submit to customers – he didn’t understand the concepts they were trying to convey, but now he has a good idea about the kind of information he needs to obtain from the customer and what kinds of research he needs to start doing (he wasn’t actually researching his customers at all before).

    Now I’m wondering if I should pursue a masters in instructional design – I don’t know, the above comment made me excited in a way I haven’t felt in a while and it made me a little proud, too. My company offers tuition reimbursement up to $7500 a year for a masters, and I’ve only casually browsed information on online degree programs, but I want to throw this question out to anyone who has either a bachelors or masters in this discipline – what were your classes like, and did you find the degree program useful? What are you doing with your degree?

    I have a BA in journalism, and I currently work in proposal development – I don’t have a graphic design background, and my design skills are basic at best. Is that going to be a major problem for me if I do pursue this degree? That may be a dumb question – there may be no actual design involved, just theory – but I legitimately know very little about this topic. I just thought that since this isn’t the first time I’ve been complimented about my teaching skills (I somehow always end up training people at every place I work), maybe I should get this degree and eventually become a corporate trainer in proposal development.

    1. Sort of in ID*

      I did the online graduate certificate program from UW Stout. You can also get a masters there. I liked the program, it was informative and worked with my schedule. I work in environmental health and safety compliance so I use it when designing training materials and sessions.

      1. Dr. Donut*

        Long-time lurker, first-time commenter. Just wrapped up a Ph.D. in Technical Communication and will start as a tenure-track professor in a technical communication and instructional design department this fall.

        Seconding the recommendation for the grad certificate from UW-Stout. They have a solid program, a good reputation, and the grad certificate/MA sounds like a good fit for where you’re at in your career. And debt-free graduate education is the BEST.

        You also mentioned that you’re concerned about your graphic design skills. For a position like yours, basic design skills will be good for now. It sounds like the work that you do prioritizes readability and usability over attractiveness (although if you can have both, that’s even better).

        Here are a few book recommendations that have helped me teach myself (and my college students) good graphic design skills:
        – Designing Information (Katz)
        – White Space Is Not Your Enemy (Golombisky & Hagen)
        – Making and Breaking the Grid (Samara)
        – Understanding Color (Holtzschue)
        – Designing for the Digital Age (Goodwin)
        – Document Design (Kimball)

        The Katz book works particularly well because it shows how to revise an acceptable design into a really good design.

        Overall, it sounds like you’re doing really well in your job! Congratulations on finding a workplace where they listen to and value your work–that’s really fantastic!

        1. Lady Jay*

          I would like to third the rec for UW Stout. I picked up a certificate in online teaching from them a couple years back and loved it: I learned a lot, the workload was manageable, the skills/concepts were transferable to diverse settings, and it’s a great thing to have on your resume. Plus, I found the school in particular had people who were (for the most part) flexible, easy to work with, and supportive.

        2. Fortitude Jones*

          Thanks so much for all of the book recommendations! I copied them all down, lol. And you are absolutely correct regarding this:

          It sounds like the work that you do prioritizes readability and usability over attractiveness (although if you can have both, that’s even better).

          Readability and usability are my top two priorities right now, especially since I deal with a lot of technical people who aren’t actual writers (not even tech writers) and people who have English as a second language. My company has a separate design team so if push comes to shove, I could reach out to them for assistance in making whatever I come up with look nice. They just have deadlines of their own, which means they’ll get to my stuff when they get to it – ideally, I’d like to do most of it myself.

      2. Fortitude Jones*

        Thanks for the recommendation! It may actually benefit me to do a certificate program before attempting a masters in case I don’t like it or don’t have the aptitude for the degree courses. Plus, it’s cheaper and I only have $7,500 for my tuition reimbursement to work with.

    2. KayEss*

      I work for a company that does online course instructional design for higher education, though I’m a web designer/developer rather than an ID myself. Our IDs mostly come from traditional education backgrounds with classroom or other first-hand pedagogical experience. We may have some people with degrees in ID? I don’t actually know, because it’s far from a requirement for us–we’re more interested overall in a demonstrated understanding of teaching/learning theory, strong conceptual communication skills (both written and visual… if you draw a diagram it doesn’t have to be beautiful, but you do have to be able to get your point across), and the ability to work collaboratively with university professors without losing your entire mind. However, we’re also a bit of a boutique-y company that does a lot of custom work in a high-end sector, so some of this stuff is going to be less important if you want to work in corporate training.

      As far as I know, none of our IDs have formal graphic/visual design backgrounds, but we do require them to build out the courses they’re responsible for in the online systems, so they have to be comfortable arranging text and images in a way that isn’t a total disaster. To that end, basic HTML skills are a strong plus for our ID candidates, and we expect them to be able to learn a lot and get stronger in that area. BUT not all companies have their IDs do the final builds, so depending on what sort of place you’re working for, you may only need to be able to lay out a course in Microsoft Word to hand off to a developer–there are successful IDs out there with no HTML skills whatsoever, they just don’t work for us. Some places also use tools like Adobe Captivate instead–my impression is that’s particularly popular in sectors like HR training. But in general, everyone recognizes that training up an employee’s skill with software is a lot easier than training them in communication and pedagogy, so while familiarity with specific technologies can be a plus it’s more about your comfort level with technology overall. (That’s all for online courses, naturally… if you’re angling to be a travelling in-person corporate trainer, you’d probably look for strong presentation and classroom management skills instead. But I don’t actually know if those people are IDs or something else? Hopefully someone else can speak to that for you if you’re interested.)

      1. Fortitude Jones*

        To that end, basic HTML skills are a strong plus for our ID candidates, and we expect them to be able to learn a lot and get stronger in that area.

        I need to hit up edX to find one of these courses – it’s shameful that I didn’t take advantage of the HTML trainings that were available to me when I was in college. Thanks for the suggestion and insight into the training your IDs have.

    3. Kimmybear*

      Have a masters in ID but work more as a corporate training/learning and development manager. I am terrible at graphic design but more and more products have templates that you can use to get you started. Would some graphic design skill be helpful? Yes. Required? Not really.

      1. Fortitude Jones*

        That’s a relief to hear, lol. My design skills aren’t horrible per se, just not anything impressive. Everything I do is Smart Art based and it looks clean, so it’s been easy to fake it through a bit in this new field.

    4. Going anon this time*

      I have a masters in organizational performance & workplace learning from Boise State University. Unlike many other ID programs, this one focuses heavily on the analysis needed to determine if there’s actually a performance problem, if it’s actually something which can be resolved through training, and what the training should involve to be effective. Design and development are just part of the process! The BSU program is also heavy on theory and academic literature, unlike most, with students learning about evidence-based practice rather than relying on “it’s always been done this way” thinking. I earned my entire degree online and highly recommend the program if you want to understand the analysis as well as the design.

      My background was a little IT, a little HR, and a lot of problem solving, so it was a great fit! I’m working in employee development for a Fortune 50 corporation. Most of my colleagues have graduate degrees, mostly in instructional design or education.

      I had no formal background in graphic design and not much natural talent for it (which is embarrassing, because my mother is an artist by profession). I’ve read up on UX design as well as instructional design, and recommend taking some free MOOC courses on UX to learn more about presenting information effectively. At my org, a lot of the training was created by subject matter experts who knew little or nothing about instructional design – basically a lot of PowerPoint brain dumps with blurry screenshots and cartoonish clip art. Understanding both adult learning theory and user-focused design will help you create learning that’s massively better than that!

      FYI, in larger organizations, the teams who create learning are separate from those who deliver it. They’re different skill sets, although you can certainly be excellent in both.

      And I ended up in this field because, like you, I ended up training people at every place I worked. When I fell into HR by accident and discovered the specialization of training & development – score!

      1. Fortitude Jones*

        Thank you – I’ll look into BSU. I’m absolutely looking for something that can be completed online and at a pace that works for me (I’m super busy in this new job, so may not be able to do anything other than a semester or two a year part-time). I’m also happy to have it validated again that I don’t need to have mad design skills before starting a program.

    5. another anon*

      I am *cough* a little older and got my job before ID degrees were as widespread as they are now. My degree was in Tech Writing. I’ve worked in higher ed in ed tech and ID type roles in distance learning and mostly learned on the job.

      From what I’ve seen it all depends. People I know with more corporate ID jobs tend to do more training type course development and use tools like articulate storyline or in house tools, some have in house designers.

      In higher ed, I’ve done a little of everything at smaller places and more focused on design and content dev at bigger places where they had bigger budgets and more specialization.

      What kind of work do you want to do? Do you want to design corporate training, work for a textbook publisher, work with faculty, do intense research, be a freelancer?

      ID has much more variety now, and you might be ok with a certificate which is cheaper and takes less time. Look at job descriptions to see what the requirements are for jobs that sound appealing, go to networking events or meetups and talk to other IDs to learn what they did and if they like their jobs.

      Good luck!

      1. Fortitude Jones*

        I want to train people in proposal writing, especially in workplaces like mine where the PM’s aren’t actually the people doing the proposal writing and development – SME’s and sales people are. Our SME’s and sales team are fantastic at what they do in their main duties of selling our product, but they’re not writers and it shows in what they produce – I imagine that’s the case in all situations like this.

  10. Eeyore's missing tail*

    Has anyone gone on leave and had to train/manage a temp? And is this normal?

    I’m going out on maternity leave in about 7-8 weeks and my supervisor (Reggie) and business office have decided that Reggie needs a temp while I’m out. I’m Reggie’s assistant. The odd thing, in my opinion, is that we’ve already assigned out most my duties. Granted, Reggie has a weird obsession with making sure the phone is answered, but I think that’s almost all this person will do. On average, I may get 1-2 calls a day. Most days, it’s pretty quiet or the calls are wrong numbers. I just learned that this temp will start 2 weeks before my due date and will stay on for a week after I return. Apparently it will take me 2 weeks to train them to use the phone and how to schedule meetings, but I think that’s all they’ll be doing while I’m out. Is any of this normal for a temp?

    I do have to laugh a little. Reggie has commented that there’s no way the temp could handle my normal workload, so maybe I should take this as a compliment? I’ll add that I work in academia, so even though I’m an assistant, I have my hands in a lot of other projects as well. I’m also trying to convince Reggie that we should cross-train the temp to help out in another area that will have another lady out on maternity leave around a few weeks after me. My coworker will be out during one of their busy periods, so I’m sure they’d appreciate the help. Not sure if Reggie will go for sharing, though.

    1. londonedit*

      Not sure where you are, but in the UK (where maternity leave is usually at least 9 months, if not a year) it’s very, very normal for someone to be brought in on a fixed ‘maternity cover’ contract to do the person’s job while they’re away. And it’s not really just ‘covering’, it’s literally doing that job as if it was your own until the person on leave comes back. I have friends who have made successful careers out of doing back-to-back maternity cover contracts – it’s interesting to them because you get to move around and work for different companies. And it’s like starting any new job – sometimes there is a handover period before the person goes on leave, but sometimes there isn’t, and you just have to pick up the reins and get on with it as you would if you were starting a new job on a permanent basis.

      On to your actual situation…I think it’s always good if you can manage to give the temp some training/information when they arrive, and it sounds like cross-training them to cover the other person’s leave would be a sensible idea all round.

      1. Lucy*

        Can confirm. I took a six-month fixed term maternity cover post fifteen years ago and found my niche. It’s a very good way of testing out a field or large company with no obligation on either side (and unlike normal contracting you can take time off job hunting!).

      2. Eeyore's missing tail*

        I’m sorry, I should have added that I’m in the US. I’ll be out for about 8 weeks. To my knowledge, we normally don’t hire temps to cover when someone is out on maternity leave.

        1. WellRed*

          I would assume Reggie likes the IDEA that he needs a temp, more than that he actually needs a temp.

        2. Kendra*

          Not sure about the maternity leave angle, but we did hire a temp recently to cover for an employee having major surgery with a long recovery period afterward. This was something we’d never done before, and honestly didn’t even occur to me as a possibility until my (relatively new) boss asked me if we were getting one, in a kind of, “of course you are” way.

          I guess it was common in his old workplace, and other departments here do it routinely, we’ve just never been in a position where they’d have approved the funding for us to do it before. Maybe something similar is going on in your office? Is Reggie, or his supervisor, or maybe someone in the business office a new-ish hire, who may have done this more commonly in their previous workplace? Or has something changed as far as your department’s funding, so that they can afford it now? Maybe they’ve always wanted to get temps when staff went on maternity leave before, but it’s just now become possible.

      3. Kimmybear*

        In the U.S. it varies significantly by office. My current company sometimes does rotations from within when someone is out on maternity leave but sometimes not. When I took maternity leave at a previous job, we parceled out clients to colleagues while I was gone and other stuff just piled up.

      4. LadyByTheLake*

        One of my first “real” jobs was to be the temp in this exact situation — covering phones while most of the substantive work was being handled by someone else. I was bored out of my mind. I suggest that you might think of some projects that have been on the back burner because you don’t have time, like sorting and cleaning up old files etc.

    2. EA in CA*

      Absolutely normal! When our front reception went on holidays for two weeks, we had a temp cover for her so she could answer the phone, respond to basic email requests.

      Here in Canada, we have the opportunity to have 12-18 month maternity leaves, so it is very very common to hire someone to take on the role temporarily until the person returns. You see mat leave postings all the time here. Your boss feels like it makes business sense to have someone temporarily cover your role so certain things do not have to fall on your coworkers plate. And if there is someone else going on mat leave soon, it makes even more sense as your office will be down two people for a period instead of just the one.

    3. MissDisplaced*

      It sounds pretty normal, but maybe not all that necessary? But if “Reggie” wants a butt in the seat to answer the phone, then I suppose a temp fits the bill. If the temp isn’t very busy, I suppose the nice thing is the hours can be adjusted to part-time if need be. This is what temps are for!

      In offices, people will often give the temp other things to do, such as filing, mailings, and other office tasks. I wouldn’t worry too much.

      1. DerJungerLudendorff*

        I don’t think part time is an option if their main job is phone coverage?
        But I agree that it won’t be a big problem. If the temp has a lot of time on their hands, they will either get assigned work or ask for more themselves.
        If not, then apparently everyone is happy with the arrangement.

    4. Caroline*

      I’ve been the temp in this situation before and my current company often hires temps for when people are on maternity leave. A lot of the time even if coworkers are covering your job responsibilities, the temp is able to help take some stuff of their plate (simpler tasks) and acts as a shared resource.

      If this doesn’t happen frequently where you work I would take it as a compliment–it sounds like Reggie values the work you do. I’m also in the US but in the non-profit world fwiw.

    5. Mama Bear*

      I think it depends on the nature of the job. It seems a little odd that the temp will stay for a week after your return, but maybe that is for your benefit so you can slow roll back into the office. If Reggie thinks he needs a temp, then let him figure it out when the temp has little to do. I would also be very clear about who gets contacted for what re: other duties. As far as the other department, could you put a bug in their manager’s ear to ask for some of the temp’s time? Maybe it will go over better manager to manager.

    6. Kat in VA*

      I did this – although the person I was covering for was out for roughly 14 weeks. I trained side-by-side with her for three weeks. However, this is a really fast-paced, intense position spanning four executives and a ton of projects. I say “is” because the lady I covered for quit five months after she came back from her leave and I was hired back on the job full time and permanent. However, when I came back, I only had a week with her before she left, so the ramp-up when I was the temp was invaluable.

      If you have any dusty old projects you can give her that would keep her from being bored, that would be good – and I definitely think quietly letting others know she can help will be a bonus. *cough*ReggieDoesn’tNeedToKnow*cough*

  11. Pink Shoelaces*

    I need to reach out to my fellow lawyers, especially any in-house counsel. I posted in this thread a few months ago. I’m a litigation attorney that desperately wants to get an in-house job but I don’t practice in an area of the law that easily transfers to an in-house job.

    I started applying for positions anyway, trying to focus on what skills I do have that would work for an in-house job. I now have a second interview with a large company. Yay!! I want this so bad.

    But now I’m freaking out. The area of law this in-house position deals with is nothing at all near what I currently do. How in the world do I sell myself when I know nothing about their area of law? And if by some miracle I get the job, how to I earn and keep their trust while I’m essentially teaching myself a new area of law while trying to perform the job?

    1. Roly Poly Little Bat-Faced Girl*

      Keep in mind that in litigation, you are learning new facts, new clients, and new areas of law all the time. This nimbleness is exactly what will help you learn about your new (single) client and a new area of law. Also, is there any crossover if you take your current practice up a few levels (like, are they both heavily regulated industries?)? Take some time thinking about your current practice and how some of those high-level aspects are similar to the job you’re applying for so you can persuasively talk about them during the interview. Best of luck! You’ll do great!

    2. The Rain In Spain*

      You’re trained to pick up new areas of law, you will be totally fine! Are there coworkers there? They can help you learn about the way things are done. Does the company currently use outside counsel? That can be a great transition (and remain a resource for things you don’t want to handle in house). I work in a highly regulated field and handle most of the day-t0-day things, but if it’s an agreement that heavily involves those regulations, I send it to outside counsel to handle as they are board-certified in that specific area! Definitely an area I’ll work to build my knowledge in, but there’s nothing wrong with that! I am fully transparent with my end users- “since this sounds like it may involve x regulation/might be sticky/etc, I thin it would be best to send this to outside counsel.” Don’t pretend to have expertise you don’t have, be responsive and kind and your normal good-working self, and you should be totally fine! You can also attend relevant CLEs to help you get up to speed. Hope you get the position!

    3. CatCat*

      I have moved from doing one specialized area of law into another totally different area of law. They were both complicated and involved a lot of jargon. At my final interview, I was asked something along these lines, “[Our Complicated Area of Law in This State] has a steep learning curve and I understand that’s not your background. How would your experience in [Totally Unrelated Complicated Area of the Law in Another Jurisdiction] help you here?”

      I pointed out the following with Totally Unrelated Area of Law:
      * I had had no knowledge/experience with Totally Unrelated Area of Law when I started that work too.
      * I had come up to speed with it quickly in my prior life despite that lack of knowledge/experience.
      * Thus I have the skill and ability to learn complex areas of the law and ramp up quickly.
      * I work well with SMEs and know how to ask the right questions to learn as I go (both areas had technical SMEs for factual matters), which means I can learn the industry jargon well.
      * I never shoot from the hip and always ask questions if I need to.

      At any rate, I got the job.

    4. Officious Intermeddler*

      I moved in-house from that firm life almost two years ago now. IT’S A GREAT MOVE AND YOU SHOULD MAKE IT!

      Depending on where you’re applying, selling yourself as a straight litigator might not be the best bet. We hire outside counsel for litigation when we need it, but on the inside, usually what we’re here for is advice, research, and pumping the breaks when the business side goes overboard. Even with that said, though, I had both a litigation and transactional background, so sometimes I get some more lawyer-y things to do compared with my peers who never worked in private practice. You’d be surprised how much people will value your litigation expertise even if you don’t necessarily have a chance to use it much.

      Meanwhile, figure out what business issues are pertinent to this new company and then work backward from there. Understanding what the business part does will make you the best lawyer they could have–you are capable of research and careful analysis that will serve you in many areas, and that will sometimes be better than what the business side thinks about even if you’re starting from scratch, but you’ll be twenty steps ahead if you know (for instance) that your business team will be working with European partners a lot and that you’ll need to bone up on GDPR, or that your guys are constantly negotiating with the same vendors or partners and therefore that you’re going to have to take a broader view of the business you have across different contracts or transactions (or whatever).

      Good luck, and…just count down the days until you can stop recording your time in .1s!

    5. Approval is optional*

      My partner went from Insurance Law to Criminal law (so the reverse of your situation). Their advice is 1. Relax – they have seen your CV so know your background and chose to interview you 2. Sell your ability to research, analyse, problem solve, reason etc. My partner’s words were along the lines of -any monkey can read the legislation, it’s understanding it that makes lawyers lawyers, so provide them with evidence that proves beyond reasonable doubt that you aren’t a monkey (I think they need to cut back on coffee!) 3. try to relate your skills to a time new legislation/ruling etc popped up in your current area of law and how you can use that experience to get up to speed on the new area 4. Research the key legislation/ rulings etc relevant to the new area (you don’t need to read the legislation from beginning to end, the summary is sufficient pre-interview (assuming summaries are a thing where you live) so you have a grasp of the essentials (which will help with your confidence too).
      Good luck!

    6. Notwithstanding the Foregoing*

      I work in the legal department of a large, financial services firm. We have hired several litigators to handle in-house work. Some attorney postings do require specific expertise (ERISA, Advisers Act), but we currently have postings for transactional attorneys and would certain consider a litigator for one of this roles.

    7. Anon for this one*

      I’m trying to do the same thing and hope to sell myself on HOW I would get up to speed on the new areas of law. I plan to join X industry group, follow Y newsletters, I have people in my network that do ABC that I could reach out to for forms, I’ll take xyz CLE etc.

    8. In-House For Decades*

      As has been said upthread, you are used to learning new facts and new industries and probably new areas of law, and assimilating them into a case. Plus you are probably skilled at writing which is likely key no matter what your tasks would be in this new job. A litigator analyzes facts to see how to use them to get the most positive outcome – in-house you do much the same except that often you are looking into the future instead of into the past — but it is essentially the same skillset. Plus you are used to working to hard deadlines and meeting them, you are used to requiring careful attention to detail, you are used to focusing intently on what is in front of you — these are all great skills you can talk about that would be valued in any in-house position.

    9. Aunt Piddy*

      Honestly, they may be interviewing you because they need a litigator! My firm usually gets hired by in-house when they need to do litigation, but it is EXPENSIVE. Many places are trying to in-house litigation now too.

      We’ve all had to switch and learn new areas in our careers! Focus on how well you learn, how flexible you can be, and how WILLING you are to be taught. (That last one is so important, they definitely want someone who won’t walk in and start acting like they know everything. In-house law departments are weird fragile ecosystems)

  12. Spreadsheets and Books*

    How do you get over impostor syndrome? Or does it just live on forever.

    I often feel like I’m not actually good at my job; I’m just good at following directions and sometimes I fail to see the bigger picture in the way I should. I just got a new job that’s a nice step up from where I was but I wonder what I’m actually doing here because I’m not sure I’m actually capable of doing what the department needs from me.

    1. Sleepy*

      Do you need to see the bigger picture to be good at your job? If you’re good at following directions and your coworkers are happy with your work which involves following directions, then it sounds like you are good at your job.

      Don’t disparage the ability to execute someone else’s vision to their specifications. You may have no idea how frustrating it is to manage someone who has trouble following directions and what a relief it is when someone does.

      If you’re worried about your work in general, check in with your boss about your performance. Make a list of things you did that were tricky and look at it if you feel down about yourself. Make a list of work tasks you are currently worried about pulling off. Look at it again in a month and see how many of them you’ve successfully tackled.

      1. Spreadsheets and Books*

        Yes, seeing the bigger picture is absolutely a central part of advancing in this career path. I’m in a highly analytical field. Simply following directions (well, but still) is why I assume is why I was bypassed for promotion at my last job. I seem to have a tendency to do what is expected without thinking about what else could add value.

        I’m getting good feedback on my performance but I’ve only been here two months so things are still pretty new. I’m not failing at any work tasks but there are a lot of things that get brought up in meetings that make me go “…huh, I should have thought of that.”

        1. DerJungerLudendorff*

          Do your manager and colleagues agree that you should have thought of that? Or is it a normal part of being new to the job (which seems reasonable to me)?

          If you have a decent manager, you could just ask them if they want you to be more proactive and come up with new ideas. Your feedback is generally good, so I doubt they will suddenly conclude you were terrible all along or something. If anything trying to pre-empt your weak points is a desirable trait in an employee.

    3. Kat*

      I have terrible impostor syndrome and feel like this all the time. Here are the things I try to tell myself:

      In a new job its always going to take some time to really understand the big picture – and I think most workplaces understand that. It took me a year in mine before I could even begin to feel like I could make confident decisions and exercise good judgement. I learned the essential “task-y” parts of my job (I LOVE following directions) very fast and did them very well, even took on some new things, and eventually the big picture started to come into focus. In my mind, I think about it like one of those puzzles where you have to solve tasks and a little bit more of an image is revealed each time you accomplish something. You start with just the little bit that relates to your specific job and then expand out from there as you learn more. I’m just finishing year 2 in my current position and I can see the parts of the image that surround my position very clearly, I have a strong sense of what is going on in the surrounding areas (my department and some close external partners) even if some details are still obscured, and I can often make educated guesses about what the outer parts of the image (executive level, other departments) look like based on the parts I can see.

      Or I think of the continuum from I Have No Idea –>I Know Who To Ask –>I Know Where to Find It –> I Know the Answer. After two years I am solidly between I Know Where to Find It and I Know the Answer for probably 75% of the things people need from me and people seem satisfied with that even though I cringe internally each time I can’t rattle off the answer from the top of my head.

      If you have a good manager or even a helpful coworker with more seniority it can be helpful to just name your concerns. Like “I feel like I’ve got a really good handle on llama grooming but I still get confused about what goes on in llama training and how their work intersects with ours.” You might hear something like “no one understands llama training – that department is a mess” or “Let me introduce you to Penelope! She is the most helpful llama trainer and you should go to her with questions.”

      Good luck! You’re probably doing fine!

      2. Spreadsheets and Books*

        I love the spectrum you’ve described.

        My last job came with very, very poor training and a serious information bottleneck from the higher ups. The director and senior manager on our team would get allll the emails and details in meetings with the CFO and the rest of us would cross our fingers that the necessary information trickled down to us eventually. I can’t count how many times I asked a question only to get the answer “Oh, that number is X, we got the information last week.” Well, cool for you, but I didn’t, and now I look dumb because I only have a few of the pieces of the puzzle. My coworkers and I discussed it regularly and consistently asked to be kept in the loop but nothing changed. As such, I really never made it past I Know Who to Ask and I Know Where to Find It.

        Things are very different in my current job as training is much better and information is communicated very clearly, so I hope I can find the confidence here that was lacking in my last role.

    4. I'm that person*

      You don’t. Or you might not. I have been at my job for 8 years. I have gotten 2 promotions, great reviews each year, a pile of awards, and a great relationship with my co-workers. At a meeting yesterday someone said that they wanted to clone me so that I could work on more projects. I know that I do a great job.

      And still I am terrified every day that I will screw up and get fired. I was fired/laid off from the 4 jobs before this one because I sucked. I was a bad employee. I have ADHD and wasn’t getting treatment and I would lose focus and spend days not much of anything.

      I am in a much better place now. I am getting treatment. I am doing a great job, but I am still terrified that I will slip into my old ways and lose what I have built up.

      1. EH*

        Yeah, almost everyone I know with Impostor Syndrome says at best that they’re a bit better. I’ve been in my field for 12 years, and FINALLY kind of feel like I know what I’m doing – but the moment my sensitive impostor antennae get set off, I’m right back to being terrified people will figure out I’m a fraud.

        My therapist tells me that you can’t really get rid of these complexes/syndromes/whatevers, we can only reduce the duration, frequency, and intensity of the attacks. I’ve gone from feeling that way pretty much 24/7 to feeling that way a couple times a month, and it’s awesome.

        Things that helped me: a ton of therapy with a self-compassion-focused therapist, reading as much as I could about Impostor Syndrome, sharing my own experiences with it in settings like this, and practicing telling myself gently in the moment “ah, there’s that Impostor Syndrome again.” (If I get mad at myself about it, that just makes it dig its claws in harder. Self-compassion is really hard to cultivate but it makes a huge difference.)

        Solidarity, fellow “impostors”! We’re not alone.

      2. Kat in VA*

        OMG are you me? Supposedly everyone loves me (as in people who would tell me in an instant if someone was smacktalking assure me no one has ever had a bad word), everyone is wow!amazed! I can handle my workload (and my most difficult exec), tell me I’m a lifesaver, constantly praise me for the quality and quantity of work I can do, wish aloud they had more “just like you”…and I’m always sure I’m one screw-up away from being fired or being exposed for the “hanging on by a thread, halfass because I’m yanked in 62 directions at once, pull it all together and please don’t let me drop too many balls today, barely making it” impostor that I am…

    5. Friday*

      Instead of trying to think of the bigger picture for everything going on at your company, try this instead: when you’re working on a task, think of what the next step/next steps are for this task/report/etc. to be performed by someone else. Example: I enter in these daily receipts, and then who is looking at them/how are they used next? Or, I’m generating this report for my boss to tell her X about Y, then what do I think she’s going to do with the information? What question does it answer for her and what more questions come up from it? Who would she share it with? Would she potentially want data Z as well?

      And then the more you think about how the work flows beyond you, the better you’ll get at seeing the bigger picture and being able to anticipate other work needs that will arise from the tasks you do.

      1. Spreadsheets and Books*

        This is a wonderful suggestion! I will start to keep in mind the objective of what I’m doing for the overall company rather than the singular task at hand that I handle.

    7. Megasaurusus*

      I have an adult son with autism and OCD. Helping him with strategies to overcome OCD taught me a lot about cognitive behavioral therapy (CBT) techniques and I use those with my own impostor syndrome. Some commentators said you may never get over it, and I think this is true, but you can learn effective strategies for overcoming it when it crops up.

      One of the first steps is actively training yourself to recognize negative self-talk. Call yourself out on it, each and every time. One of the first things I remind myself is that just because I feel something, doesn’t make it true. CBT techniques are handy for so many of life’s problems. It’s the most helpful skillset I’ve ever developed.

  13. Snubble*

    After a year of jobsearching I found something! No agreed start date yet but I know they’ve contacted my references and I’m going for an ID check next week, so add a month of contractually required notice and I should be in post by August.
    I am looking forward immensely to hearing no more updates on the bowel health of my desk-neighbour’s dog.

      1. SecondChoice*

        Yay!!!! A big huge congratulations to you!

        (And yuck on the last part. But super yay to that as well. LOL)

    3. DerJungerLudendorff*

      Hurray! Freedom from unwanted socially mandated small-talk!

      And having a job, that’s very nice too.

  14. CatCat*

    The NY Times posted a good article titled “How to Overcome ‘Impostor Syndrome’”. Earlier in my working life, I had impostor syndrome big time and I think I held myself back because of it. I wish I’d known that impostor syndrome was a thing and known strategies to combat it. I hope someone finds the article helpful!

    I’ll post a link in the replies.

  15. Bummed*

    I left a toxic job after 2 years and while I’m glad, I’m bummed because there was no card or get together. My coworker with whom I worked closely with didn’t get me anything. Not that I need something, but I’m just really surprised. Other people who were there for 3 months had a lunch where we all got together and we signed cards. I didn’t even get that.

    I’m moving on to a (hopefully better) job, but is there a way to put this into perspective? To feel better? Because it really hurts/stings right now.

    1. MOAS*

      I’m sorry, that really does sting a lot.

      I had a similar situation where someone received a card and cash donations when they lost a family member, but I did not get anything. It just seems to be a bitter part of office life that these things can be uneven and yes, unfair.

      I’ll tell you what I did or would do in this situation, be glad that you’re leaving a toxic place, and look forward to the better things coming. Will you have time off in between? if so take that time to recharge and do things you wanted to do when you didn’t have any time.

    2. Camellia*

      Yeah, that hurts. Can you chalk it up to just one more way that this job is toxic? And that it’s made your coworkers toxic in a way that lets/causes them to ignore social norms?

      1. Fortitude Jones*

        That’s how I’d look at it – be glad you’re leaving this place. If your manager and coworkers can’t even pretend to wish you well, they’re tacky and you don’t need it.

        I’m sorry that happened to you.

    3. mildregards*

      I’m sorry. It stings because you care, and caring is part of what makes you a good coworker and member of the community. This place is toxic, so presumably they’re botching all sorts of things they should do better at. This was one of them. You should have received a card, and a proper goodbye and thanks from your team.

      Can you get yourself a card? I know that may sound silly, but I’m thinking of the “final accounting” the heroine does in the Maisie Dobbs series whenever she finishes a case. If you picked up a pretty card (look up the floral pop-up ones on Amazon, they’re gorgeous), you could write down the 5 things you’re proudest of during your two years here. Things like projects you had to work hard on, or people you were able to collaborate with only due to your persistent graciousness.

      Best of luck at the new job.

        1. mildregards*

          I’m a card person. It’s what I’ve built my business on and it’s a part of my family culture, and sometimes it’s also…fraught. No grocery store sells a card that says, “I’m sorry you’re leaving but so happy you’re getting out. Be proud of what you’ve accomplished and stay in touch.” Sometimes we need that card, and the only solution I have is to give it to ourselves.

      2. MissDisplaced*

        DEFINITELY get yourself something! Reward yourself for searching, interviewing and getting that new job!
        It could be as simple as card, flowers, nice dinner or a new purse or shoes or whatever.
        You’ve got to treat yourself if no one else will.

    4. The Rain In Spain*

      I sent a farewell email to people I cared about/worked closely with. That prompted a flood of responses (my department didn’t let anyone know I was leaving). I was also surprised and touched by how many people I *wasn’t* close to reached out- I sent an email to those who would be affected by letting them know to contact person a after date x and that he would be handling the relevant work for them. The higher ups just never announced I was leaving, and that was awkward but I eventually just took control and sent out the communication I wanted to.

      But also, isn’t this part of why you’re leaving? Toxic environment, not feeling valued, etc? I wouldn’t give this place any further energy/thought- focus on what’s coming next for you!

      1. Friday*

        I did something similar and forwarded all those nice responses to my personal email. My direct department didn’t do anything at all for me. It stings, but I just remind myself that this was just one symptom of a bad environment that I’m very happy to have left.

      2. Fortitude Jones*

        The Rain in Spain, are you me?! My department didn’t announce I was leaving either – I ended up emailing people I was working with to let them know they wouldn’t be able to reach me after a certain date, and they were like, “Whaaaat?!” Anyway, I got a lot of response emails that were truly lovely saying I was a pleasure to work with and they wish me the best of luck wherever I’m going, and I forwarded those to my personal email.

        My last day was also my birthday, though, and my cube mate got me a card that almost everyone signed, and they also got me a $25 Starbucks gift card (they did all of this last minute). I wasn’t particularly close to any of them, and I’m sure if one of my more popular colleagues left, they would have gotten a more elaborate send-off, but it’s the thought that counts I guess. I would have been really hurt like Friday if no one said anything. That’s a particularly cold thing to do to someone. It takes two minutes to write “Good luck” on a card.

    5. Anonymousse*

      Rationalize it as the invaluable gift you’re getting is that fact that you’ll be free from the draining clutches of said toxic job. Just because there is no card or lunch doesn’t mean you weren’t appreciated as a coworker and an employee. In my experience (I’m leaving this Fall after two years, not expecting a lunch or card, our high school interns get goodbye card and lunches), one of the symptoms of a toxic workplace is the lack of gratitude toward employees from upper management who has the funds and organizational authority to call for cards and pay for lunches.
      Do you think your now former coworkers will keep in touch with you? If so, then I’d say I’d value a real adult friendship cultivated from a field of shit to be a wonderful gift.

    6. Bananatiel*

      I just left a toxic job back in October after being there five years– I worked VERY hard in that job and my boss, recognizing it would be bad not to throw something, hastily sent out an invite last-minute for a happy hour in my honor (this is at an org with 300 people, at least half of whom I had the opportunity to work with, for context). Funny thing is, I don’t drink and never have, and she knew this. Even better, only a few people showed up and it was awkward because a lot of the coworkers that showed up didn’t like each other (just one of many reasons I was leaving!).

      While I was there people definitely had WAY better going-away gatherings. With potlucks, sheet cakes, cards, the whole nine. I’m still a little bit hurt by it honestly but let me tell you, the best revenge is knowing you’re in a better place the farther out you get from having left. That going away gathering is a reminder that it was the right choice to leave. I think if I had had a very emotional and “good” going-away party it would have cast doubt in my mind.

    7. Spreadsheets and Books*

      I recently left a job, too. While everyone else who has left in my time there, including two people who took secondments and were coming back, had a hosted a happy hour party, I didn’t. I did get a card and we did kind of a joint lunch for me and another person leaving at the same time (there was a bit of an exodus) but I was really hurt that no one threw me a party when I’d been there almost 3 years.

      It sucks, but the best thing you can do is remind yourself that you got out and are on to something better and they’re all still stuck there.

      1. Toxic Waste*

        I know not everyone will like me, but they would make hostile comments out loud, blame me for mistakes, try to get me in trouble, etc. It was interfering with my work/ability to do my job. That’s a problem, no?

        1. Toxic Waste*

          I’m sorry- nesting/replying failure. (I didn’t mean to direct this comment at you, Spreadsheets and Books.)

    8. Lily Rowan*

      Can you picture yourself as Peggy Olson from Mad Men leaving her job? (If you don’t know it, you can google it.) Basically take the attitude that they can eff themselves and you are OUT.

    9. The Man, Becky Lynch*

      The best way to look at this is to say “this is as horrible and toxic as I already knew it was. This is additional proof.”

      I had the same thing happen when I left my toxic waste dump. They had taken everyone who was leaving previously out for a farewell lunch. I upset them so much that they snubbed me. I laughed.

      Thankfully in my case, my two reports that are now my friends were sweet though, we just did things after the fact. Which dissolved into finding out a lot of “issues” I was not aware of and such. But that’s not the norm, you’re in a hive of evil bees, you don’t want their tainted honey.

    10. the cat's meow*

      Sorry to hear about this. I’m in a relatively new job and was really surprised that we don’t do anything here. I’m used to cards or lunch from other places. Sending you a virtual card.

  16. (Mr.) Cajun2core*

    This is not a question but I want to post it here because it really shows how “cultural fit” works.
    This is the reason I was not offered a job recently.

    “Oh sorry I just point blank asked Flynn and he said you and Eve were both equally highly qualified but the managers thought she just would fit in a little better with the shop. In other words she wouldn’t take crap off the guys and didn’t mind telling them off when they are out of line if that makes sense. Shes a little rough around the edges.”

    1. Jennifleurs*

      See, I would much have preferred that than the “other people we felt were a better fit for the company” rubbish I got the other week. So that I could know how I’m coming across, etc.

      1. (Mr.) Cajun2core*

        Yes, it was nice to know the details. The only reason I got this much detail is because a friend works in the department and she asked the boss directly. I do feel a little frustrated by it because I could have stood up to the guys but that is not the image I generally portray in a job interview!

        1. Myrin*

          Yeah, I was gonna ask what she did in an interview which made it clear she would stand up to these out-of-line guys. Of course, someone can come across as very confident and steadfast while another person might seem shy and easily intimidated, but this part “she wouldn’t take crap off the guys and didn’t mind telling them off when they are out of line if that makes sense” makes it sound like not a hypothetical but something they actually observed!

          1. (Mr.) Cajun2core*

            Yea, I have to wonder what she did or said also. However, I do think it was just an overall appearance/attitude. Think someone who is obviously blue-collar vs me who is definitely white collar.

            1. irene adler*

              Did they ask about things like “what do you do when co-workers give you crap?”?

              Otherwise, I think this is an unfair judgment to make on their part (just my opinion, obviously).

              Most folks will tell you I’m rather meek. This hides a mighty mouth and I can give as good as- or even better than- I get. Folks are very surprised to witness this from me.

              Just my 2 cents.

              1. (Mr.) Cajun2core*

                They did not ask me that directly but I wish they had. I have had to stand up to faculty members. Has anyone seen the “Trailer Trash Tammy” videos? I have a feeling that she was closer to her than I am.

                Just a feeling though, no evidence.

                1. Blank Blank*

                  Wow. I understand that you are frustrated about not getting the job, but some of your comments are really out of line. I’m surprised that I am the first one to point this out. Maybe your sense of entitlement and othering came across in your interview more than you would like to admit. Its certainly coming across in your comments.

                2. (Mr.) Cajun2core*

                  Blank Blank – I can somewhat see how it would seem a sense of entitlement. I am not very good at describing situations and coming up with good analogies. I admit I may have gone well over the top in my comments. Thank you for pointing that out.

                3. DreamingInPurple*

                  I get that you’re unhappy about how things shook out, but the odds of a blue-collar-presenting female candidate getting a job over a white-collar-presenting male candidate (assuming from the Mr. in your handle) are, statistically, pretty slim.* This isn’t that likely to keep happening.

                  *Yes, I realize there will probably several people who read this and have some isolated example of something similar taking place, but that anecdote is not the same as the preponderance of evidence showing that women who are perceived as being “lower class” have difficulty getting jobs.

  17. ThatGirl*

    Still a waiting game on my internal job application – I was told they’ve wrapped up interviews so hopefully something next week.

    On the one hand, I know I am completely qualified and had a good interview; on the other hand I don’t want to just assume being an internal candidate gives me a leg up. So…we’ll see.

  18. bassclefchick*

    We’re having a major software rollout in two weeks. It’s going to totally change the way I do my job. Not only that, but the task that takes 90% of my day is being taken away from my department entirely. I’ve had 6 hours of training on this software and that was not nearly enough time to “play” with it to figure it out. Between one coworker not having a positive thing to say about ANYTHING and the other one so against change she throws tantrums that would embarrass a two year old, this change over may kill me.

    On the other hand, this IS the best job I’ve ever had and I know it will be fine once we get it up and running. Please send positive vibes that I will survive this. And maybe virtual bourbon.

    1. mildregards*

      May you have four fingers of virtual Four Roses, straight up or over ice depending on your preference.

      Keep focusing on the good changes. You’ll have 90% of your day to fill with new things! There is so much possibility in your near future!

    2. The Rain In Spain*

      That sounds like it may well be a stressful transition! Try to keep a positive mind set- this new software sounds like it should open up time for you to work on other things. Maybe think about some new tasks/projects you’re interested in or would like to take on so that you can have that ready to go if you find you don’t have enough to do and need to talk to your manager about it!

    4. Miss Pantalones en Fuego*

      I bought a lovely aged mezcal in Mexico a couple of weeks ago. Perhaps you would like to try it? And being the only person with an open attitude to this change might result in great benefits for you later on. Good luck!

  19. MOAS*

    Month 1 as a manager is officially done.. I’m still building up the team and we’re actively interviewing candidates. We had a lot of overqualified or otherwise not good fits but this week we were finally we were able to recruit a few candidates since they wowed us during the interview and did well on the practical.. The others were… when asked why you want to work remotely, “The office environment is too catty.” And so many were just no-shows???? My bosses are going to be screening 900+ resumes on their own. (yeah).

    On the work front, pressure is on to deliver. My boss decided that I should give my two workers to the team that’s struggling. I *COULD* get feelings about it, but I’m trying to keep it in mind that there’s a common goal to be achieved and this is what I need ot do to get there.

    My other two co-managers–now they are very knowledgeable and smart and nice. But they keep complaining about their staff (one of them is justified b/c her employee is not a good employee). The other one has said a few times that I got the two good ones and that’s why my team is doing well, and apparently they told the VP that I don’t know my work.

    This bothers me a little bit b/c 1) I really don’t want to incite bad feelings in anyone or 2) worse, have my boss take my two people away to “help the other team.” and then my team end up suffering. For their comment, I’m giving them the benefit of the doubt b/c they work in another location and are otherwise very outspoken and blunt so I can believe it wasn’t said maliciously. I’m just trying to be neutral and focus on the common goal.

    1. Ree*

      My response to “Why do you want to work remotely” would be: So I don’t have to hear cube mates clang their spoon against their cereal bowl in the morning, the loud talkers, the clicking, clattering and general NOISE. I never realize how slightly distracted I am at work until I get the rare WFH day and I’m like “LOOK AT ALL I CAN DO.”
      Also, controlling the thermostat. Sharing an office with my dog. Being able to eat toast mid-morning.

      1. Fortitude Jones*

        Yeah, when I got asked this question for the job I’m in now, I just told them it would give me some much needed quiet to get my work done. Whenever I worked from home in my last job, I accomplished almost twice as much as I did in the office because I wasn’t being interrupted by questions or overhearing other people’s loud conversations. My new employers seemed to have found that an acceptable answer, lol.

        1. Windchime*

          This is probably what I would say, if I could ever find a remote position. Having quiet and the ability to think without interruption would be a godsend. That is, if I could get the dogs who live behind me to stop barking.

  20. Bee's Knees*

    Power keeps going out. The VP that’s here this week is NOT pleased.

    One of the managers here, an absolute bear of a man, hasn’t been feeling well. The other day, he was talking about how he hasn’t had much appetite. I was standing in the doorway of his office, and pretended to grab on to the doorframe at the news. The guy walking down the hallway didn’t hear what we were talking about, just saw me start to fall. Poor thing, I think I scared him.

    I know I scare one of the other ladies that works here, and I’m not sure why. Her badge quit working, and I’m in charge of getting her a new one. She asked her manager to come ask me for a new one. I’m nice, I have candy!

    And I learned a neat new trick this week. One of the engineers set a meeting with some salespeople. We have four conference rooms, and one of them just has a standing table. That’s the one he booked. I told him that the others were free, and he didn’t have to use that one. He says that when the sales people sit down, they talk forever. When they stand, the meetings are shorter and more productive. I then reminded him to let me know when he’s expecting a sales visit, cause otherwise I run them off. We get more unsolicited sales people than people wanting jobs.

  21. Frustrated Today*

    I’d like to know how other companies handle shredding of documents. Specifically, how are individual employees expected to comply? Does the company supply bins at desks, have a communal shred bin, or something else?

    My new company (about 75 people in this building) checks work areas every night to make sure things are locked up, desks are clean and people’s little “shred bins” are empty. The reason “shred bin” is in quotes is because it’s something that sits on the edge of the waste basket and it looks exactly like a recycling bin due to it being blue. If something is in the bin when they check, the person is spoken to or written up, depending on how many times it’s happened.

    When I first got here I threw an advertisement in that bin, because I was thinking “recycling.” My previous company had recycling bins all over the place and because our little bins are blue, it was natural for me to think it’s recycling. And no one told me it’s for stuff that needs to be shredded. Of course, someone caught it and told me the next day. My argument is what I just stated. And t’s an effing advertisement not customer information!

    Someone on my team did the same thing a couple times recently and from the email I got (I’m the manager), it’s clear that people who do the checking are following the policy that there was something in the bin. Didn’t matter that it was a flyer. There was *something* in the bin and it’s our responsibility to make sure it’s empty. There’s clearly no thought behind this to stop and think, “Hmmm. Let’s check the document and see what it is. Is it sensitive or confidential?” I find it very hard to get excited about that, much less talk to my employee about it.

    Anyway, I’m trying to think of a different way to handle the whole shredding thing and what suggestions I can make. Since I’m new, I don’t exactly have much political capital yet. I get that we handle confidential information and there’s no way we should leave anything unattended or unlocked overnight, but people shouldn’t be spoken to because they left a flyer in the bin.

    1. Snubble*

      We have central shredding bins on each floor of each office building and an external company comes and empties them and does the actual shredding every week. Which sounds like what you ahve except that you have your own little repository that you need to remember to transfer to the main bin?
      We don’t have at-desk trash bins at all, so if you want to throw anything out you have to get up and take it to the right bin, which builds in a stop-and-think moment about which bin you want.

      1. Frustrated Today*

        “Which sounds like what you ahve except that you have your own little repository that you need to remember to transfer to the main bin?”

        Yes, that’s exactly what we have. It just annoys me to no end that there’s no thought to the fact that it was a FLYER and not customer information. People are just very black and white about it. But maybe I need to just get over it…

        1. ArtK*

          This is probably because the people who police the bins aren’t qualified to determine what must be shredded or not. That’s why they have a blanket rule. This is really making a mountain out of a mole hill.

          1. The Cosmic Avenger*

            That’s rather dismissive. If they are going to try to ding people for doing something, then they have to communicate what they want! Frustrated Today said that no one told them that it was a shred bin, and apparently the same thing happened to the person on their team. That’s a failure of upper management, and it is a big red flag for me. “Gotcha” culture, where rules are not communicated or ambiguous, and those enforcing them see their goal as catching people rather than preventing errors, is pretty toxic.

              1. Frustrated Today*

                I feel like it’s an oversight or miscommunication. There’s been nothing that would point towards a toxic or “gotcha” culture. Other than this and one other item (both coming from the same department), policies and procedures are communicated very well here. I think it’s a matter of people no communicating these things when people are hired. I’ve experienced that everywhere. Inevitably something pops up after months of being on the job and people just assume you knew when no one ever told you. It’s not malicious. It’s just something that isn’t written down and longtime employees just assume everyone knows.

      2. Elizabeth West*

        That’s what we had at Exjob. The bin lived in the mail room on each floor, where the copier lived also. It had a slit on top to poke papers through and a lock. We were mostly paperless, but people did occasionally print things off.

    2. JanetM*

      We don’t have any official policies on shredding that I know of (at least in my department); it’s generally left to the staff to decide if something needs to be shredded. We have a locked 55 gallon bin in the break room; it gets picked up once a month by our contracted destruction company.

    3. Dotty*

      We pretty much do what you do: Three large communal shred bins (locked so you have to put things through the slot) in different parts of the office and little blue bins at people’s desks. Front desk staff also have their own shredder and there’s another one in the printer room. Confidential information like PHI and financials absolutely needs to go in the locked bins before the end of the day and people have gotten in trouble for not doing that, but the shred bins also get used for normal paper recycling and nobody cares if you leave a spam flyer or something in the little ones.

      I don’t think your problem is how you handle the shredding. I think the problem is the person checking the bins needs to be trained to use some critical thinking.

      1. Frustrated Today*

        “I think the problem is the person checking the bins needs to be trained to use some critical thinking.”

        The policy comes “from the top” so to speak. People are delegated to do the checking. There’s been a few other things coming from that area that I vehemently disagree with, but they’re not changing so I doubt this will change either.

        1. Gumby*

          If things in the shred bins are supposed to be confidential – then the person checking *shouldn’t* be looking at what exactly it is! It’s confidential! To know that it is a flyer, they would have to read it. But you aren’t supposed to read confidential documents that aren’t within you “need to know.” So I don’t think it is on the bin-checkers to verify.

          But I also think the “anything in the bin = a write up” is a silly and formulaic practice which would just make me never put anything in it even if I did need to shred it. I would probably put it in a pile somewhere else that wouldn’t lead to being written up.

          1. Frustrated Today*

            That’s exactly what I’m doing. I very rarely generate any paper, much less anything that needs shredding. If I do, I walk to the bin that’s 10 feet down the aisle.

            We all work with the same kind of information so there wouldn’t be anything that others shouldn’t see, except maybe HR. But they’re not even in our building and the building they’re in doesn’t do these checks.

    4. Not Me*

      Are you guys handling state secrets and leaving the office door open over night? I’ve worked in HR in the financial industry and law firms and never heard of such a stringent policy (checking every night). If they don’t want people to leave documents in the shred bins at their desk (also, never heard of that) then get ride of them and make people walk over to a locked shredding bin (like most places use).

      1. Frustrated Today*

        I’ve never seen a process of having people check every night, either. This is the first time. But there are other very stringent policies here, too. So…

      2. Fortitude Jones*

        I third the suggestion to take away the bins at people’s desks. That will solve the issue if they really want people shredding every day and not leaving stuff behind.

      3. Miss Pantalones en Fuego*

        I’d assume that someone once left something critical in plain sight and it caused a problem, so now they have this stringent blanket policy (and it’s possible nobody remembers why). So I’d try to ask that whoever does orientation for new people makes sure to explain the policy, and come up with your own system for disposing of non-critical stuff.

        Personally I’d just shred the occasional thing along with everything else so that I only have one process to follow for waste paper. I can see where you are coming from but this seems like a pretty minor hill to die on. The important thing is to convey to those who are doing the writing up that this policy was not explained to new people, but as a new person yourself I think trying to change it will get you labelled as difficult.

    5. Natalie*

      I have no idea if this would apply to you, but in some fields it’s not unusual to have strict shredding rules regardless of the paper in question. It’s just easier to have a blanket policy of emptying the paper recycling bin into the shred bin every night rather than having to parse through individual pieces of paper. It sounds like possibly nobody told you this rule, or wasn’t clear about it? If so, that would be a perfectly reasonable suggestion to make and I don’t think you need capital to do so. New people should be informed of rules, obviously.

      That said, you seem a little invested in showing that you were behaving reasonably. Of course you were, but they also have this shredding rule, which may be reasonable depending on the field. You didn’t know and now you do. Unless someone is continuing to bring this up or something, I would just let this go.

      1. LCL*

        Yes. Whenever I do a clean and purge at my house, what takes the longest is looking at each piece of paper and deciding keep, recycle, or shred. The physical act of cleaning is easy. Your job’s approach towards shredding is to make it easy and spend the minimal amount of time on it while still being effective.

        At my job, the secure shredding bins are downstairs and it is up to me to take things to it. 99.9% of our shredding is technical information. On the rare occasion I handle something personnel related, I shred it myself using our small shredder upstairs.

      2. Davide*

        I worked as a temp in the banking industry which had these policies to empty out personal rubbish bins at the end of shift to the communal shredding bin (lock box environment – companies/orgs. outsourced their payment processing operations to the bank instead of doing it internally).

      3. Seven hobbits are highly effective, people*

        I’ve worked in offices like this before – they don’t have a non-shredding paper recycling option, all papers are put in the shred bin. They’ve decided it’s cheaper to pay to have everything shredded than it is to carefully audit what goes out whole and make sure that no one is recycling things that need shredding. Sure, that ad from the local pizza place isn’t confidential, but they’d rather shred 100 of those than leak one person’s banking information out into the world.

        My current office is the other end of the spectrum, and and it kind of drives me nuts. I know of at least two people who keep “shred bins” at their desk that get emptied maybe a couple times a year when they get really full, and I suspect other people just recycle stuff that I’d shred since we all have recycling bins. I tend to leave things that need shredding at a specific spot at my desk, and then stop off at the shred bin on my way to the restroom since they’re near each other, but I used to work in one of those “it all goes in the shredder or gets locked up, every day” offices, so old habits die hard. I suspect I am also one of the few people who lock files/confidential papers up rather than leaving them in unlocked desk drawers.

    6. The Rain In Spain*

      We also have communal shred bins on each floor. I keep a stack at my desk as well in a separate box and just dump it periodically, but no one comes and checks here regularly. If there’s something with sensitive info I do make sure to take it to the bin immediately. In a past job compliance would come around to look for sensitive info and remind you of the policy if you left something out/accessible that you shouldn’t have. Would it be reasonable for you to discuss the policy with YOUR manager just to make sure you have clarity re expectations? You can state that your team has been reprimanded for leaving things in the bin and you want to make sure you’re giving them the correct guidance- it’s your understanding that the bins are to be emptied by close of business each day. That gives your manager insight into what’s going on and the opportunity to clear things up for you.

    7. animaniactoo*

      We have the individual bins, but we have a person who has it as a job task to come collect them and transfer them to the main bins for shredding. We are not responsible for making that transfer, just separating it at our desk.

    8. The Cosmic Avenger*

      We used to have a communal shredder in our mailroom, and I usually put my own papers through there myself, although there was a collection bin, and if someone dumped a bunch of documents in there I guess the mailroom staff would do it for them.

      Now we have Iron Mountain bins, and it’s hauled off and shredded offsite.

    9. Policy Wonk*

      You aren’t going to be able to change anything about the guys who are checking the bins. Working for the government, we have this issue with ensuring no one leaves classified information out. My office has a central sign-out/check-out sheet. At the end of the day when you sign out, you go and check the office of the person who signed out before you to make sure anything that is supposed to be locked up is locked up, nothing sensitive is left out. The first person to leave is off the hook, the last person out knows to double check/be careful to ensure s/he hasn’t left anything out. Depending on what happens to those who leave things in the bin this might be overkill, but it works for us.

    10. Llellayena*

      Long term tentative solution: If you have a way to make suggestions, can you say “Blue is a well-known color for recycling and I’ve had times I’ve mistaken our shred buckets for recycling. Is there a way we can change the shred buckets to red (or yellow, or orange)? New buckets or spray paint?”

      Short term: get into the habit of checking yours before you leave and if you see a confused new person wandering around, give them a quick heads-up just to be nice.

    11. DCGirl*

      I’m a proposal manager and have to shred all drafts and copies of the actual RFPs. We are to keep a shred box at our desks and shred it all when it gets full. We have a dedicated shredder in a locked proposal war room. Recently the shredder disappeared. I came in to find a little trail of shredding schmutz leading to the war room door and the shredder gone. It turned out one of the senior VPs had so much shredding in his office he’d moved the (very heavy) shredder there for a while c

      1. Fortitude Jones*

        I was a PM, and still work in proposal development, and I’ve never had to shred an RFP – is this a government thing? I find that interesting.

    12. Anono-me*

      Why not see if you can order big bright labels that say “SHRED BIN – EMPTY EVERY NIGHT” and stick them on each of the shred bins.

    13. Sabrina Spellman*

      We have an office shred box and individual bins in our offices. Everything that has a student name on it needs to be shredded, so we’d spend a lot of time walking back and forth if we didn’t each have our own bin, though I don’t empty mine nearly enough.

    14. Flyleaf*

      It sounds like they are implicitly encouraging employees to never put something in the shred basket, and instead put everything in the trash.

    15. Lilysparrow*

      At my jobs where shredding of client info was required, the individual was expected to take items straight to the communal bin as needed, no box at your desk.

      If it was a banker’s box or more, you had a form to fill out and the folks from the file archive would come get it on a dolly and put it in the destruction queue.

    16. BuildMeUp*

      This sounds like the policy at a bank where I used to work.

      I’m going to be honest and say that this is not something you should use any capital on, full stop. If you’re working with confidential information, your company has this policy in place in order to make absolutely 100% sure that anything with customer information on it is kept safe. That means if it’s in the shred bin, it needs to be shredded and the bin emptied at the end of the day, no exceptions.

      That’s what makes these policies effective: there’s no wiggle room, and no one has to make any judgment calls (or waste time checking exactly what has been left in a bin). From experience, wiggle room leads to privacy violations because people aren’t being careful/get out of the habit of making sure the bin is empty.

      The policy exists because it keeps customer information safe.

      I understand that you didn’t know the policy, and I think that’s where you should focus your energy. Let the relevant person know that the policy wasn’t made clear to you, that there was confusion over recycling vs. shred, etc.

    17. Lilysparrow*

      Wait, I’m re-reading this, and I just realized that you said the person is written up *or spoken to,* depending how many times it’s happened.

      And that you left a flyer in the bin, and the next day someone spoke to you about it.

      So, does this “speaking to” involve some kind of public shaming or verbal abuse? Does the phrase have a special connotation in your area that I’m not picking up on?

      Because from here, it sounds like someone simply told you, “Hey, don’t do that, this is the policy.”

      Which does not sound like anything that requires an argument, or a policy change, or any political capital at all. It’s telling people who might not have been told, or who forgot, what the policy is, and only moving to a write-up if it continues.

      Which, to me, sounds totally reasonable.

      1. Frustrated Today*

        “So, does this “speaking to” involve some kind of public shaming or verbal abuse?”

        No. I just meant that they’re told the bin is supposed to be empty, it’s the policy and their responsibility to make sure it’s empty, even if it’s an advertisement.

        Honestly, I wouldn’t have a problem with this policy if it was actually communicated to people upon hiring. But it’s not, and it’s not written anywhere. A few people told me they didn’t know either until they were caught leaving something non-confidential in the bin overnight.

    1. ArtK*

      Fail the test == dodge the bullet

      These same managers will whine day in and day out that they can’t find good candidates. Bed, made, lie.

      1. vampire physicist*

        I probably wouldn’t pick up the candy wrapper unless I knew where a garbage was, which as an interviewee I very well may not. For that matter if it were a peanut-containing candy I wouldn’t pick it up so that I wouldn’t risk hives in the middle of a job interview. Someone with minor mobility issues or imperfect eyesight may decide not to pick it up or might just miss it. This is extremely ridiculous.
        I think the coffee cup one is slightly less ridiculous, but only just, and it’s neatly subverted if someone politely declines a beverage. Unless your ability to wash dishes is relevant to the job, this is unnecessary – there’s no shortage of other opportunities to gauge a candidate’s manners.

    3. Samwise*

      The Sunday text message?! On Sunday, I’m busy and I put away my phone. Good lord. I don’t want to work for anyone who’s contacting me on Sunday for no good reason.

    4. peachie*

      Lordy lordy. Like… is the candy wrapper in our path or across the room? Am I allowed to be, you know, sleeping? At what point am I supposed to go on an adventure to find the kitchen? Am I also supposed to know where the mugs go?? (I’d certainly ask what to do with the mug — it’s just rude to leave it on the table — but, c’mon.)

      New policy: my “test” is Are they pulling this nonsense?

    5. Steggy Saurus*

      I hate stuff like this. I was once asked in an interview for a law library assistant/facilities manager position (don’t ask!), “How do you make a peanut butter sandwich?” I thought for a second, then said, “Do you mean how do I make a peanut butter sandwich or how does one make a peanut butter sandwich?” Their response was about me, personally, so I said, “I don’t.” Heaven only knows what that says about me!

      1. Anne (with an “e”)*

        I like your answer (and I’ve been known to eat pb&j sandwiches from time to time.)

    6. Middle Manager*

      Wow those are bad. The Sunday morning one seems like you could even make a case that it’s religious discrimination. I’m at church on Sundays at 11am. I’m not going to be returning potential employer texts.

    7. Elizabeth West*

      Another CEO revealed to the New York Times that she texts prospective employees at 9pm or 11am on a Sunday, “just to see how fast you’ll respond”.

      NO.

      1. CrowsLikeCake*

        That stood out to me, too. Not sure what that CEO is trying to find out (or prove) about a prospective candidate. That they have no life outside of work?

    8. Lilysparrow*

      I had a hiring manager say in an interview once that he kept weird hours, so I might get an email at 4 am, but I shouldn’t feel pressured…

      I didn’t hear the rest of the sentence because I involuntary burst out laughing. He was startled. I got a handle on myself, and said, “Um, yeah. I won’t be seeing it until 8:30 or 9.”

      I got the job.

    9. Dasein9*

      I would not pick up a candy wrapper because as a guest, it is not my place to draw attention to litter in my host’s space. That would be rude!

    10. Llellayena*

      I might pick up a candy wrapper if I see it in lobby while I’m waiting, but not as I’m walking into the interview room. Because the next thing I’d do after picking up that wrapper is ask where the bathroom is to wash my hands and I wouldn’t want to do that at the beginning of the interview when I’m about to shake someone’s hand.

      And what if the phone number you provided was a landline (yes, people still use them for this)? If someone sends a text to test how quickly you respond, do you fail just because the number doesn’t receive texts? OY.

    11. Thursday Next*

      Yikes. I wouldn’t pick up trash at an interview; I’d file it away as information about the company’s self-presentation.

      1. The New Wanderer*

        Right? If anything, I might judge the interviewer for not cleaning up or at least saying “excuse the mess”. Like, why would that ever be on the guest?

  23. Toxic Waste*

    I’m (finally) leaving toxic job. I went to lunch with some people, but other coworkers were invited and they didn’t go. They never really like me from the start- they were a clique-y bunch and I never really fit. These were women who would walk down the hallway, not say anything to me, unless I said “Good Morning” first. They’re the cool girls and I am not and never will be.

    They talk about people being “social” but being social doesn’t mean ostracizing others and making fun of them.

    I know this, but I still feel a little hurt that they didn’t attend. I helped them with work, brought donuts, asked them about their families/interests, gave money for their kids for Girl Scouts/Boy Scouts/ etc. I guess that I’m just a little bummed that they couldn’t join us, but I’m grateful for the people that did.

    Is it normal to feel this way? Is there something that I could have/should have done differently?

    1. fposte*

      Knowing what you know now? Retroactively, spend less energy on them. If they don’t like you when you bring donuts and donate to kids’ stuff, you might as well save your money. If there’s a possible overall takeaway, it might be “resist the urge to chase somebody who’s being hard to get.”

      I’d draw on that to spend less energy and thought on them going forward. Right now they’re overshadowing the people who *did* attend your lunch in your mental space, when it should be the other way around. They sucked; you weren’t going to change that; time to enjoy your future without them.

    2. Cat Fan*

      Congratulations on moving on! I would be relieved that a bunch of assholes declined to come to my going-away party. Who’d want them there?

    3. Little Bird*

      I’m sure deep-down you know this: it isn’t you, it’s them.
      People’s behavior reflects who they are, and they’ve shown you all along who they are and were true to it until the end. It sounds very middle-school, if you ask me, that they are only secure if they stick together and leave others out.
      I know you were hoping for better from them, but they aren’t able to be that, I’m sorry.
      Congrats on getting out!

    4. animaniactoo*

      Mostly, remind yourself that it’s okay for people not to like you. That makes it okay for you not to like them either.

      And if you don’t like them, it’s really okay to invest yourself in being civil and getting along, but let that be the limit of your effort, especially when they’re not reciprocating. Because it sounds like this would have hurt less if you hadn’t been investing that time and effort in being friendly to them. You would have less of an expectation of them reciprocating at the end of your time with them, if you had already accepted they weren’t going there and stopped trying. Which is not to say that you *have* to stop doing donuts and asking about their families and stuff. Just that if you can’t do that without the expectation of some reciprocation for it (which is normal!), it’s okay to stop doing it.

    5. WellRed*

      You’re not friendly with them, why would you be bummed they didn’t attend? Move on and take back the mental energy you are wasting on this.

    6. MissDisplaced*

      Sure, it’s normal to feel this way. They are acting like asshole mean girls and they’re grown women.
      But, work is not high school. I don’t intend to sound harsh, but you have got to get over this and not let it affect you at work or expend any of your time or energy worrying about it.

      I am in my 50’s now and I really don’t give a crap whether people at work like me or not, or whether or not I fit in (one of the nice things about getting older-you just don’t care!). I’m there to do a job, make money, and while it’s certainly pleasanter to get along with people at work, they’re not my friends and I don’t really want to socialize with them beyond work.

      1. Toxic Waste*

        I know not everyone will like me, but they would make hostile comments out loud, blame me for mistakes, try to get me in trouble, etc. It was interfering with my work/ability to do my job. That’s a problem, no?

        1. The New Wanderer*

          I think the confusion is, why would you want terrible people to come to your celebration? There would be zero chance they’d suddenly behave like good people. More likely, they would have sat off by themselves and made snide comments and ruined your lunch. They suck, but try to think of it as they did you a favor by not showing up in bad faith.

    7. Batgirl*

      “I helped them with work, brought donuts…”
      Ah! Yet more data that you can’t accommodate jerks.

      I think it’s definitely normal to be disappointed in this behaviour, but in general I agree with fposte. Value people with actual value. Also, your description of their behaviour has got to be the polar opposite of ‘Cool’. Tres pathetic.

  24. Fishsticks*

    So my partner and I decided that we are going to quit our jobs (without another one lined up) and move. We have been planning to move cross-country for a while back to my home state and after a few interviews that either the job wasn’t right or wasn’t offered, we decided it would be easier and cheaper to job hunt in my home state where we can live rent-free with my family while we look.

    Does anyone have advice on this kind of thing? I’m freaking out that I’m giving up an okay paying job to move even though I know that living in the state will give me a leg up. My partner has been in the workforce longer than me and is in a field that has a lot of burnout turnover happens frequently and isn’t concerned about finding a good position. I’m fairly entry-level so it’s harder in my field.

    Basically, how do I not freak out even though I know financially this is my best bet to save some money since I won’t be paying rent and not paying $400+ to fly out for interviews?

    1. Jimming*

      I did the same thing right during the Great Recession before we all knew that was happening! (Also I still had to pay rent but it was slightly cheaper.) My strategy was to start job searching while I was planning the move so I had a few phone interviews and networking events lined up after I moved. It took both my spouse and I a few months to find jobs but in the meantime we got to explore the new area and spend some time together.

      Good luck! It sounds like you’ll have more family and financial support while you’re job searching which can help with the stress level.

      1. The Blue Marble*

        Can one of your relocate while the other job hunts in the new state? My husband and I have done this quite a few times: Florida to Las Vegas, Las Vegas to Ohio. That way there will still be a paycheck coming in and once the new job is secured, the partner can then relocate as well. I guess it would also depend on how long you can live rent free as well.

        1. Fishsticks*

          So neither of us can afford our current place on one salary (we live in one of the most expensive housing markets in the US with 3 roommates so we have to leave the same time). We both have had interviews, but I’m only a few years out of college so I only qualify for entry-level positions. Also we can stay for as long as we want with family thankfully. I’m worried about moving without a job and what to say in cover letters once I’m no longer employed, (I also have anxiety so that’s fun lol)

          1. WellRed*

            I think it might be easier to find a job if you are still fairly entry level. As to what to say about no longer being employed, I think relocating cross country to be closer to family is a pretty good reason and one that most employers will understand.

          2. Seven hobbits are highly effective, people*

            Seems like you can initially just say you’ve relocated due to a family move to the area and are looking for a new job as a result of the move – employers will probably assume that means you’re the trailing partner and the other partner moved here for work. If it comes up in the interview, you can mention that you have family in the area and moved to be closer to them. (This will reassure prospective employers that you plan to stay in the area you’ve relocated to.) People move for this reason all the time and it’s generally seen as a thing that reasonable people do.

    2. The Rain In Spain*

      This makes total sense- you will be saving money and it’s so much easier to get a job once you’re in the area. I did this when I left my toxic job- I just tried to save up as much as I could beforehand and limit discretionary spending. Being more entry-level might make it easier for you to find a job! There tend to be more of those available. Do you have any contacts in the area/professional organizations where you can network as well? That’s not my typical approach but it ended up being what helped me get my current position (which I LOVE). Hope everything works out well for you both and you end up with jobs you enjoy!

      1. Fishsticks*

        I don’t have many contacts but my boss (who knows I’m leaving and wants to help me find a job) is opening up his network to me and is willing to contact any friends he has at places I’m interested in which is so helpful. Thankfully I have a decent amount saved up and saving on rent will help a ton (:

    3. The Man, Becky Lynch*

      You’re going to have a lot of advantages being in the area, including being able to quickly interview if someone is filling a role without time for you to schedule a flight, etc. It’s scary when things are unknown but it’s worth it, you have a good landing pad having your parents willing to let you get on your feet with the rent free arrangement! I bet they’re excited to have you move home as well =)

      Just remember to deep breathe and remind yourself that it’s more cost effective this way. Try to chase the scary thoughts out with logic, that’s helped me over the years.

      You may want to think about if you are able to stay in your field or if you need to switch industries if the job market is limited and your limited experience is going to be an issue.

    4. Interplanet Janet*

      Do you have any office/bookkeeping skills? If you’re moving to a decent sized city, look into doing temp work when you arrive. It’s a great way to build your local network, get a foot in the door, learn a little more about local companies, and make some money while you’re looking.

    5. Lily Rowan*

      I’ve done it multiple times and it’s worked out, but I’m basically lucky and also not afraid of credit card debt.

      Good luck!!

  25. mildregards*

    People who have started online businesses, do you know of any communities of fellow business owners worth joining? Or blogs that have truly helpful resources, ideally with comments sections like this one rather than, y’know, like the rest of the internet.

    I have a product I’m proud of and a niche that’s definitely a thing (greeting cards for awkward situations and difficult relationships), but I’m not quite sure how to market other than word of mouth and paid ads on blogs or social media. Which is plenty to get me started! I’m just…wishing for a roadmap, and for connection to others in a similar situation.

    1. Bee lady*

      Hi! I’m in a similar situation. There are some good Facebook groups, like Sell Like An Artist. I also pushed the craft fair route hard in my first year and made a point of introducing myself to other vendors so I could learn from them. Bigger craft fairs are also great for visibility because you get added to their directories.

      I’m happy to talk to you more about this! I entered my email when I wrote this comment (which I hope shows up?) if you want to get in touch.

      1. Bee lady*

        Okay, it looks like it didn’t show up. If you have any specific questions, I’m happy to answer them here :)

        1. mildregards*

          My username at gmail will get you my contact info, and I’d love to talk further.

  26. Karen from Finance*

    Hi, reporting from the crazy startup where everything’s made up and professional rules don’t matter. (The one with the psycho animal-hurting coworker, the CEO who called me baby twice and where half the company is friends or family of one of the owners).

    Didn’t see the CEO this week. My boss (CFO) got in an argument with the commercial lead about the latest shitty commercial decision the CEO made without asking him. He actually said “You are not listening. Are you not going to stop this until he ends up in jail?”. – Apparently there are ramifications that weren’t considered, but then again, of course they weren’t.

    I had to chuck an entire project that I’d been working on for months. Just chuck the entire thing and start over. There was nothing wrong with how I’d done it, they just modified all the source data in a whim and I have to start over. This keeps happening. On another project, we were supposed to be collaborating with several departments and we agreed that we’d each be working on our part. I’m the only one who did my part. One of the leads didn’t do his, but started nitpicking my part of the work; when I asked him to do his, he said he’s too busy (I gently reminded him that if he’s so busy, all the more reason to focus on HIS side. Still, he won’t get it done). And that’s how the entire project ended up becoming my responsability, when I don’t have the knowledge or the time to do it by myself.

    I feel like I’m continually being set up for failure. I’m feeling my state of mind starting to slip. I’ve struggled with depression in the past, I know the drill, and I’m starting to get scared. I have got hardly any work done this week, I can’t get myself to do anything when everything feels so worthless but then I feel so bad about myself.

    So. I have a meeting with my boss in an hour, where we’re supposed to be setting objectives for the semester. I figure I’m just going to tell him everything, except for the job search part. But about how impossible my job is right now, about how I feel disrespected, about the “baby” thing. Last week he told me I’m his top performer and he wants to set up a career plan for a promotion in the future, that’s about as much political capital as I can get. So fuck it. can’t do this anymore.

    1. The Man, Becky Lynch*

      I know it feels like they’re doing this on purpose and that it’s a “setup” to watch you fail but as your faithful peace of mind “on the outside”, I don’t think that’s the case. I truly believe they’re so haphazard and ridiculous that they’re just a zoo, a total circus! They aren’t really gunning for you, they always seem to like you…they just s-t-i-n-k at you know, being professional and running a frigging business! *hugs* I know that it’s easier from the outside to think this but given the info you’ve shared over the past, it really seems like they’re just a bunch of bumbling dillweeds who aren’t malicious [except that psychopath who talks about hurting animals, that’s a bad person right there]. They’re just grossly inept and it’s killing you because you’re a smart, capable, hard working person who is trapped on an island of people who severely lack those traits!

      1. Karen from Finance*

        Yeah, I think that’s the one difference between Hellmouth and me. While she was actually being set up by Hellboss, this is just gross incompetence on several levels and the Dunning-Kruger effect. There’s only a couple of people who I think are actually malicious. Still, it so often ends up FEELING like a setup because I keep being asked to do high-profile tasks but my official role doesn’t have high seniority, so the cards always end up stacked against me (which is what I plan to bring up in my meeting soon, with different phrasing).

        1. Karen from Finance*

          I just googled and apparently the cards analogy implies intentionality. Please correct that part to “so it always ends up being a lose-lose scenario for me”.

        2. The Man, Becky Lynch*

          Minds are terrible like that! I can relate 100% to “knowing” one thing on a logical level and yet you still have that mental meltdown. Case and point, I have had some stupid minor health issues just piling up that regularly would just be a “argh cold/flu season winding down and it’s gotten me bad this year”.

          Then I went in for a routine exam where a medical professional WebMD’ed me, “it’s probably nothing but it could be that you’re gonna die.” and my brain went to “YOURE GONNA DIE”. I went so far as to get my insurance lined up and letting my partner and mom know about how to collect it.

          It took an ED doc and my PCP to talk me down. Yet still, I have been having more panic attacks lately due to it.

          Our brains are wired like that and it’s an uphill battle. But I know that you will win this war.

      2. I Work on a Hellmouth*

        Yep, totally agree with this. You’re the one non-wackadoo on Wackadoo Island.

    2. ArtK*

      This is certainly not about you. This place is toxic and dysfunctional and you should be looking hard for something new. I get a feeling that you are trying to somehow save this place. Taking over a project because the other peoople aren’t doing there part is a really bad idea. Let the project fail, just make sure that you’ve documented what you did. I doubt that the place can be saved at all and there’s no reason for you to destroy yourself tyring to keep it afloat.

      1. Karen from Finance*

        I get a feeling that you are trying to somehow save this place.

        I absolutely was at first. Lately? Can’t be bothered. But it’s bringing me down, because giving up on people makes me feel terrible.

        Taking over a project because the other peoople aren’t doing there part is a really bad idea.

        It was my boss’s idea, not mine. We were all working on a document together and he had me remove the other people’s edit permissions. Should’ve pushed back harder, will push back again now after discussing with one of the leads.

        1. Miss Pantalones en Fuego*

          Well they are giving up on themselves, too, so it’s not as though you are solely failing to give critical support.

    3. Been There*

      Best of luck to you on your job search! I worked through a similar (not quite so bad) experience a couple of years ago, and stayed FAR too long. It’s hard for you psyche to take it and you have my empathy.

    5. Karen from Finance*

      Update: that meeting was a fail, my boss was having none of it so I didn’t end up saying much. I think my coworker wore him down before me. Will try again next week maybe.

      1. leya*

        ugh, i’m really sorry to hear this. i hope that you’re able to devote some real time to taking care of yourself; whatever you need (meditation, exercise, bath, mindless TV). look at your calendar and devote at LEAST 4 sacred hours a week to relaxing. if you have access to therapy, this would be a great reason to go. if not, i hope you have a few trusted friends/family members that you can share this with. and if you’re able, after taking care of yourself, to devote some time (any amount!) to a job search, that couldn’t hurt as well. but make sure you take care of yourself first – that’s what matters most. i’m really rooting for you!!

        1. Karen from Finance*

          Thank you!

          I do have a hobby, I’m a beginner makeup artist on my time off. I’m taking professional classes and everything! And lately we’re being assigned more ambitious projects for class that require planning and research, so I’ve been relying on that (and on reliving my abandoned instagram) to try to put my mind off things. It’s something so indulgent that it gives a nice counterbalance to this whole thing.

          I’m also lucky to get to cuddle my s.o. and our 4 furbabies, that helps too.

          I took this week off the job search after taking a bit hit last week, but I’ll be resuming that soon, yeah.

          2. leya*

            ooooh that sounds so cool!! glad you have something fun to take your mind off of job weirdness. and no sweat on taking a week of your search – you’re a person first, gotta take care of yourself!

  27. Anathema Device*

    I missed out on a job recently that would have been a promotion for me – a very strong external candidate got it. My manager (who was the hiring manager) offered to give me feedback and I was expecting it to be quite brief but we went through every question and she’s given me absolutely loads of tips and advice.

    Is it wishful thinking that she wouldn’t do that if she didn’t rate me?

    1. Karen from Finance*

      I think it would depend on a few more factors, like how she is as a person (is the the type of person who would do this for ANYBODY or is she more selective of her time?) and the nature of her advice (was it mostly negative, or was it just areas where you can improve while showing actual appreciation?).

      From the way you’re describing it, it seems like she appreciates you. At a minimum, she seems invested in seeing you grow professionally and she just did you a great kindness. Take the most out of her advice! This kind of feedback is rare and useful.

        1. Karen from Finance*

          Hey, congratulations for having an awesome boss. I know that not getting the job SUCKS, but this is the best way that could have played out.

    2. fposte*

      I think it’s possible she’d do that for any employee, but it’s a lot likelier that she sees potential in you. So I wouldn’t say that for sure she wouldn’t do it if she didn’t rate you, but I do think it’s reasonable to accept her advice and willingness to help at face value.

    3. Tomato Frog*

      Can’t speak your boss, but I certainly wouldn’t do that for a direct report unless I respected them, trusted them to act on advice, and thought they were worth developing.

    4. Sam Sepiol*

      When one of one team leads did it for me it was because I’d blown the interview and she absolutely wanted me to get it the next time (which was soon, and I did). I hope the same is true for you!

      Also, EXCELLENT handle. Are you watching on Prime?

      2. Venus*

        I think this comment is key – a boss will only do this, at that level of detail, for someone they want to succeed when a similar opportunity comes up. There’s no guarantee that you will be the best candidate at any specific competition, but she’s definitely putting in the work to give you the best chance!

        Her comments aren’t proof of how well you did this time (without specific info you can’t know if you were excellent or mediocre in the interview), but in that situation I expect it means that she thinks you would do the job itself well.

  28. Bummed*

    Also to add, I said that I was leaving at noon, but my boss said that I could leave early at 11:00. She literally walked with me and was like, “Is there anyone that you want to say goodbye to?” and proceeded to walk with me as I said goodbye to people. Was I being walked out? I wasn’t fired- I resigned 3 weeks ago. What did she think I was going to do?

    She then talked about how the new position is set up and she’s happy with the salary, etc. She then literally walked me to the door. Even the guard was surprised! Did I do something wrong? Is this standard procedure? I felt like a criminal or something. Wtf?

    1. fposte*

      Has there been a history of problems with you and this boss? Because what you describe to me sounds like a reasonably friendly farewell where she didn’t just want you to slink off unnoticed.

      1. Bummed*

        She told me to gather my stuff and basically walked out with me. She added that I could say bye to people, but it was almost like an afterthought. (People said bye to me when I gave my notice and I talked with them during that time, so technically I already said my goodbyes.) She was abusive, hostile, and toxic, so I think that she just wanted me out of there.

        1. fposte*

          It sounds like you hated the job anyway, so I’d just shrug this off as one more reason to be happy you’re out of there.

    2. Federal Middle Manager*

      There was *just* that shooting last week after the employee resigned. I have no reason to believe you give off bad-resignation vibes, but management might be jumpy or have talked about new protocols.

    3. Forkeater*

      This happened to me when I left my job a few months ago! I was really taken aback. My manager walked me all the way out to my car. I’d been there five years and left on good terms and maybe he considered it a nicety but it felt kind of shameful.

  29. Lily Evans*

    I just need to vent for a minute. I have a coworker who’s recently taken to wearing a full wrist of clanking metal bracelets and it’s driving me nuts. They constantly make noise against her desk as she types and she keeps shaking them down her arm when they get too close to her hamd. I’m kind of bec with her for other things, and this is just making it worse. We also work in a library so a quiet work space is expected and there’s not really any background noise to drown out the bracelets. I can wear headphones but I can still hear the jangling. At least it’s Friday.

    2. Damn it, Hardison!*

      I feel your pain too. Until recently I had a colleague who wore boots that jangled, just like a cowboy in a western. We took to calling her Sheriff. The upside is that we could hear her coming, and could put on our headsets to avoid conversation.

    3. Anono-me*

      Get her more bracelets.

      Seriously, you should be able to find some inexpensive bracelets that are metal or plastic wrapped with embroidery floss or cord. The fabric covered bracelets will cushion and muffle the sound of the metal bracelets. Make a big deal about how you saw that and thought they were just perfect for her and normally you wouldn’t blur the boundaries like this, but it was just too perfect to pass up. Then if she doesn’t wear them, you can act all hurt and sad and hopefully guilt her into wearing them.

    4. Aspiring Chicken Lady*

      “Gee, those bracelets are surprisingly noisy, even from way over here at my desk. Is there anything you can do to keep them still?”

      1. valentine*

        Yes. “Carlisle, would you mind not wearing the bracelets? I can hear them through my headphones.”

    5. AvonLady Barksdale*

      She may not even notice. I used to wear three metal beaded bracelets on my right wrist that kind of shook and would knock against my laptop, and I swear I didn’t notice a thing because I was so used to it. Someone said to me once, “Wow, your bracelets are jangly!” and I was extra careful after that. I eventually stopped wearing them (after at least 15 years) because they were loosening and I didn’t want to risk breaking them.

      Of course, this only works if she strikes you as a generally reasonable person who doesn’t relish disturbing people.

      1. Windchime*

        Yeah, I have a couple charm bracelets that are really heavy and I finally quit wearing them to work because they make a rattling sound against my keyboard tray as I type and I was worried that it might bug people. Nobody said anything, but people usually don’t unless they are super annoyed.

  30. For this? Anon*

    Is “emotional health” day a legit use of sick time?

    I came so close to taking one today. I had my call-out email written (just vague “I’m sick I won’t be in today”) but the guilt took over so I sucked it up and came in. My supervisor is highly anxious and has a very stressful job and often dumps on me. I’m starting to get resentful about it to the point that I start to get irrationally angry whenever they ask me to do tasks. So far I’ve been able to control my emotions and behave professionally but I feel like I might crack.

    I have a short vacation (5 days, including weekend) in two weeks but I don’t know if I can make it. I feel like a day at home doing nothing would make me feel like I have some control (can opt out of the emotional dumping in a way that won’t affect my relationship with my boss). But guilt!

    1. anonish4this*

      I took one yesterday. No shame! Not even job stress related, just pregnant and slept terribly and needed a day on the couch watching PBS Masterpiece. I feel like a whole new person today.

      1. valentine*

        If you mean you’re forced to listen to her or she retaliates, there’s no one above her to appeal to, and you’re not leaving the job anytime soon, shore up your defenses. Learn not to care. (Unless her crap is triggering.) Establish a boundary she can’t trample. Get to a place where she can’t make you feel the way she wants. You do have a measure of power and control, and it’s on how receptive you are to her manipulation.

    2. Notthemomma*

      Yes it is. Full stop.
      Your mental health impacts physical health. It impacts all areas of your life in an outside of work. Take the time, take care of yourself and don’t feel you need to justify.

    3. DC*

      Yes. 100%. I took one this week, because I’d gotten some very bad news the day before and knew I wouldn’t be effective in the office.

      I am lucky I have a fantastic boss, I just told him that I was taking a mental health day and he told me to take two if I needed.

      Emotional health is important, and we don’t do enough to take care of it.

    6. Admin of Sys*

      Emotional health is 100% a valid call out sick reason! I mean, some bosses might be weird if they catch you out at the beach, so I consider emotional-break days very stay-cation focused. But your brain is part of your body, and it needing quiet time and a nap is just as legit as if you had a bad headache or an upset stomach.

      1. For this? Anon*

        Yeah based on the way my boss manages their own emotional health I do not think they would agree with you. They would definitely see it as “faking sick.” But what they don’t know won’t hurt them!

    7. IT Ninja*

      Absolutely!

      I’m just recently becoming able to notice when I’m at the “I can push through this but if I do, I’ll have a breakdown in two days and be out of commission for a week” point of stress. And then either leaving work a couple hours early because I am not feeling well — which I’m not!! — or staying home in the first place.

      1. For this? Anon*

        I’m also just recently learning to read cues of when I am too stressed, and in turn realizing how much emotional energy I pour into my job. Too much!

    9. For this? Anon*

      Thank you, strangers of the internet, for validating my feelings! If I’m still feeling grouchy and resentful after the weekend I will take a day.

    10. Lora*

      Yep, absolutely. “Sick of work” = sick. As *a* manager, though not *your* manager, I vastly prefer that people keep their worse behaviors at home as needed, to preserve the general harmony of the group and so I do not have to repeat five times over, “maybe she was having a bad day. Everyone is entitled to have a bad day once in a while. It probably has nothing to do with you.”

    11. Veryanon*

      It totally is. Fortunately my company has one bucket of FTO which we can take however we want, but at past jobs I’ve definitely felt the need from time to time for a mental health day. I used to feel guilty about it, but not anymore. Taking care of your mental health is just as important as your physical health.

    12. The Man, Becky Lynch*

      If it makes you feel better, aside from all of us who will chime in with our opinions, I’m in a state with mandated Sick Leave in place. Mental Health Days count! They are right there in the statute so that people have no question about it.

      If a state legislature says it’s acceptable, it may give you more of a push to see that this is an appropriate use of sick time!

    14. Middle School Teacher*

      Yes. I take two a year. I look at them as, if I don’t do this now, I’ll get really, genuinely sick, and probably be out for longer.

    15. Seven hobbits are highly effective, people*

      Yes! My criteria is that if I can say with a straight face “I’m not really feeling well and I think I just need to spend today in bed. I’m going to see if a day of rest can turn this around before I get really sick.”, then that’s a sick day. If the reason I’m not feeling well and want to spend the day in bed reading novels and taking it easy is because work is exhausting rather than because I have a virus, well, that’s still a day spent in bed resting so I can recharge rather than drag myself to work where it’ll get worse.

    16. Cows go moo*

      Yes. I am at the point of stress that even a tiny provocation will likely end up in me having a break down and resigning on the spot. I will be taking a few days off.

      I treat it the same way as I would a physical illness. I stay in bed, read, drink lots of tea, and watch silly movies.

      It’s so important we take care of our brain health.

    17. Windchime*

      Totally legit. Your mental health is as important (if not more so) as your physical health. I just send an email saying, “I’m under the weather today and will be taking a sick day. Hope to see you all tomorrow.” Send. Nobody questions it and I don’t feel guilty. Being stressed out and anxious doesn’t help anyone.

  31. FreddyLongJohns*

    When asking for a raise, is it generally better to ask for it in terms of percent of your salary or absolute dollar amounts? For example, 10% vs. $10,000

    1. The Ginger Ginger*

      I think you should calculate what the % increase would get you in dollars and give it as a dollar amount. There’s some research (according to a WSJ blurb) that asking for your desired amount in a non-round number (ex: $43,250 vs. $43,000) makes it seem subconsciously that you’ve done more research and know what you’re talking about.

      Of course, I’ve also heard that people like balanced looking numbers like 0 and 5, so if you get offered $43k and ask to bump up to $45k instead, people tend to see that as positive.

      So who even knows, lol. I think your best bet is to make a sound case for your increase and really know your market value going in. But I’d still give the number so you’re not asking your manager to do additional “work”/math when requesting your raise. And you’ll both know exactly what your asking for.

      1. Fortitude Jones*

        This – if you’re going to be brave enough to broach this topic, go all the way with it.

    3. Admin of Sys*

      Desired salary is the best option, but it’s useful to know how that calculates out as percentage, especially if your company has standard raise amounts, or raise caps. (some places might require higher-up approval on raises past 10%, for example)

    4. The Man, Becky Lynch*

      You can ask for both? Just say “I’d like a 10,0000 raise, that lands us at 10%.” because they’re going to see you’re aware of the numbers and they’re going to crunch them anyways.

      A lot of places have a magic percentage number for raises, some cap them at say 5% or here it’s 10% [thanks to the previous jerkwad who was found to be giving their faves insane salary bumps, way to ruin it for the rest of the world, man.]. Unless there’s a role change of course, that’s a different story.

  32. Lady Dedlock*

    Looking for some commiseration about the pitfalls of having a human body with bodily functions in the workplace. (Grossness warning, obviously.)

    Yesterday, I discovered in dramatic fashion that I am incapable of drinking strong black tea without milk when I vomited the entire cup into my trash bin. (Before anyone speculates, I’m not pregnant; checked as soon as I got home. Apparently, this is a thing that happens to some people, due to the tannins in tea???) At any rate, I was quite shocked and embarrassed at what happened and went home immediately.

    Someone tell me I’m not the only one who’s been there!

    1. Newbie*

      Reminds me of the first week of one of my past internships: I had the WORST headache of my life. Probably a migraine. I couldn’t see straight, was super nauseous, short of breath, it was just Very Bad. But since it was my first week, I didn’t really feel like it was right to leave! I’m sure my boss would have wanted me to go home but I just couldn’t imagine dipping out like that so soon into it. I suffered through and spent the rest of the day miserable…luckily, I haven’t had something like that happen since.

      1. valentine*

        Be proud of your quick thinking and sufficient control to use an adequate receptacle.

    2. mildregards*

      Totally happened to a friend of mine. She didn’t even realize it til she moved to Japan and tried to drink green tea there, because she always had (black) tea with milk at home.

    3. JanetM*

      Many years ago, I was prescribed a bronchodilator. I took the first two doses, and turned out to be highly sensitive to it — I was jittery, I had the runs, my heart was racing, and I had so much trouble concentrating that I literally had to stop and think about every individual word I was hearing to make any sense of speech — and sometimes lost track partway through the sentence.

      My boss kept trying to send me home; all I could think was, “I can’t drive like this, I’d kill someone!”

      Fortunately, a friend who had done a short-term job for the company came by to pick up his check and took me home to recuperate. I can’t remember now if he stayed overnight and took me to work in the morning, or drove me back to pick up my car late in the evening when I felt better.

    4. fposte*

      You saw the post a month or so ago about people who’ve pooped and peed themselves at work, right?

    5. Cat Fan*

      I have to be careful drinking tea on an empty stomach. I only ever drink it black, but I don’t drink it before eating breakfast.

      1. Steggy Saurus*

        Definitely me too! I learned this at conferences: I am not a morning person at all and I don’t drink coffee and a couple times I thought “Oh, I’ll drink a cup of tea and it’ll help me stay awake for this session.” Instead, I ended up rushing out of the presentation for the bathroom. I think both times I managed not to throw up, but I now absolutely not, under any circumstances, drink a cup of black tea without eating something first.

      2. Trinity Beeper*

        Yes, I learned this the hard way! I brought a kettle with me to summer camp when I was a teen. One day, I drank some black tea before breakfast. I didn’t even make it to the cafeteria – I was curled up, dry heaving about 100 steps away.

    6. Apostrophina*

      I have the same problem if I quickly drink a lot of strong tea on an empty stomach (and I’m from the southern US and was raised on very strong, sweet tea—you’d think my tolerance would be infinite by now).

      It hasn’t happened at work, but I have certainly had to race into a few restaurant bathrooms!

    7. medium of ballpoint*

      Definitely not the only one! One of my team members vomited in the office last week after we took them out for a celebratory lunch. We felt awful because we picked the restaurant, but they went home and were fine the next day and no one even thought about it. We’re humans and sometimes that terribly base-level humanness gets the best of us. Hope you’re feeling better!

    8. LaDeeDa*

      I threw up in the parking lot once from some using one of those Sense-y wax burner things. It gave me a horrible headache, so I was leaving for the day, as I was walking out– just as pretty much the entire company was coming back from lunch- I starting gagging/coughing and then threw up right in front of them all.

    9. Veryanon*

      Oh man. I’ve had this happen to me, and I love tea. One time I got sick from drinking cranberry juice on the subway, and vomited into a trash can after stumbling off the train. No one even noticed; I could have been murdering someone and no one would have cared. No, I was not pregnant at the time.
      Anyway, I hope you feel better soon.

    10. Frea*

      I react that way to tea (the tannins feel really gross in my throat and an empty stomach can make it three times worse). My most embarrassing “Oh god I’m human” moment came from almost passing out and ruining a take on a friend’s film. I knew locking your knees while standing at attention could make you drop, but I didn’t know kneeling upright could. Educational but I’d have preferred not to learn that in a professional setting.

    11. Damn it, Hardison!*

      Not just you. Mine was a fast developing migraine that caught me off guard.

    12. hermit crab*

      In my late teens through mid-twenties I suffered from what is apparently called “cyclical vomiting syndrome.” It’s just as much fun as the name makes it sound. Luckily, most of my triggers weren’t things that appeared/happened in the workplace, and I seem to have grown out of it (knock on wood), but that combined with my susceptibility to motion sickness means I became an absolute pro at unobtrusive vomiting in public. It’s a useful skill!

      (Also, I’ve never heard of the tea thing. That’s fascinating!)

    13. Lemon Zinger*

      Green tea sometimes makes me nauseous when I drink it on an empty stomach, so this doesn’t surprise me. I’m sorry it happened, though! Thank goodness your trash bin was nearby. :)

    14. DAMitsDevon*

      I luckily haven’t thrown up at work (knock on wood), though the last time our remote staff was in town, we had a team meeting in a small room that was way too warm. It ended with my boss getting nauseous and having to run to the bathroom to throw up, and another person almost passing out a few minutes later. Anyway, I’m really hoping this means that the next time everyone is back in town, we’ll have meetings in better ventilated rooms!

    15. The Phleb*

      Totally not the only one! On a bus trip set up through work (didn’t have to hang out with them) and got horribly motion sick on the way home. Was forever grateful that I work at a hospital and half the ER was there so it wasn’t anything they hadn’t seen a million times before!

    16. tea2*

      this has happened to me!! i have to make sure i drink green or black tea with some food in my stomach or i get soooo nauseous

    17. MaybeNeedASickDay?*

      Devious mind here. I think I just figured out how to get out of our next mandatory group activity shortly after it starts….

  33. grace*

    I need to gather some references for a job offer and I’d like to ask a former manager – I don’t have his email address, though, so I’m wondering whether messaging him on LinkedIn would work? And if so – I don’t even know where to start with what to say, so any short and sweet requests you’ve written before would be appreciated. :)

    1. The Rain In Spain*

      Linkedin should be fine! In the past I’ve started off with a brief general hope you’re doing well, provide a short update of what’s happening, and then ask if s/he’d be willing to be a reference for me for the role. If they say yes, I send them more information about the role/why i’m interested/etc. and thank them. obviously!

    2. Interplanet Janet*

      If you’re already connected on LinkedIn, I think this would work.

      “Hi! I’m gathering references for a job offer, and was hoping you wouldn’t mind stepping in for me? I’d need your current email and phone number. I really appreciate it. Hope things are going well for you [at company name | in city name | ‘these days’]!”

    3. Snarktini*

      You may be able to see his email addresses under contact info on his LinkedIn profile. Often, that’s the case if you’re connected — worth a look! But emailing not necessarily better than messaging. It depends on the person, which one they pay more attention to.

  34. Sled dog mama*

    I’m starting to get a little ragey over this so need some perspective.
    My office uses an electronic to-do list sort of like a ticket system but instead of one person working the ticket start to finish, each person has discrete tasks and the list makes sure they get done in the proper order and on time. We have five people in the position that puts most of my tasks on (they rotate who puts the tasks on weekly but all the same job function). The tasks tied to a to-do item are the most visible part of my job to my coworkers but only make up about 35-40% of my responsibilities. Sometimes my portion doesn’t get done until the day required (still on time) and coworkers will remind me hey X is due today, but I have one coworker who will call and remind me if things aren’t done well in advance. Today I have gotten no less than 3 calls and 1 visit over tasks that aren’t due until Monday. It’s just this one coworker doing it but it’s seriously disruptive to my ability to get the other 60% of my job done.

    1. Sled dog mama*

      Aack. My task also doesn’t prevent coworkers from doing their tasks even if I wasn’t getting it done on time.

    2. The Rain In Spain*

      Tell the coworker to knock it off! Thank you, coworker, I am aware that the task is due Monday and it will be completed by then. It’s in my queue!

      If they come back again after that (but bf Monday)- is there some reason this task needs to be expedited? As we discussed previously, it’s in my queue and will be addressed by Monday.

    3. Ama*

      Honestly with it just being this one coworker I’d just tell them — “I know you’re just trying to help, but you interrupting me to remind me about tasks that aren’t due yet is making it hard to get the rest of my work done.”

    4. Analytical Tree Hugger*

      Since this is recurring, I’d say to the coworker, “You send me reminders about my tasks. Could you tell me why that is?”

      Then listen to their explanation, especially for anything that’s valid. Finally, say, “I need you to stop doing that, because it’s distracting me from the majority of my job. Can you do that?”

      If they continue to do so and/or refuse, then I would talk with your manager, to get their take on this. If you don’t share a manager, hopefully YourManager will talk with Coworker’sManager and get Coworker to stop.

    5. Venus*

      I would be tempted to ask them if the deadline they provided is too late for them, if they are so worried about you not being done early… but it’s a passive-aggressive and cynical way of thinking!

    6. Batgirl*

      Make them explain themselves. “Am I missing something? Why are you telling me this?” If they keep it up: “We’ve talked about this. I don’t need someone to read the checklist for me and it makes me wonder if there’s an emergency or if there’s something terribly wrong. It’s distracting and annoying”

  35. Newbie*

    I’m in my first post-college job and am having trouble asserting myself/not being timid around these people who are all higher-up than me. One specific problem I keep running into is: I’ll have a meeting scheduled with my manager (it will be on both of our calendars), and when I show up to her office she’s deep in conversation with someone else (usually HER boss). When this happens, I’ll usually just linger around her office until I see this visitor leave. Is there a certain amount of time I should wait before gently interrupting? I’m guessing that also depends on who she is talking to?

    Thanks in advance!

    1. TCO*

      I think you’re following the right instincts here to let her wrap up her conversation, especially if the other person is higher up. But you can also just ask her! Some bosses would genuinely appreciate being reminded that it’s time for your meeting to start, though I think most would prefer that you wait like you’ve been doing. The next time you meet, just ask, “I know sometimes you’re still wrapping up another conversation when our meeting is scheduled to start. Do you prefer for me to keep doing what I’ve been doing and waiting for your other conversation to end? Or do you prefer for me to knock and check with you each time?”

        1. Auntie Social*

          You can also IM her that you saw CEO in her office but just let me know when you’re ready for our meeting.

    2. boredatwork*

      You have to start thinking of these people as normal, just like you. I used to do the awkward door hangout too, now I just knock, and say something like, “sorry to interrupt, should I come back in a few minuets?” You have to do this with a smile and a pleasant tone.

      Sometimes by boss is happy to have a reason to boot the other person out of their office or they’ll “reschedule” for later that day.

      Universally, it seems no one likes a lurker.

      1. Newbie*

        I’m struck by your comment saying I have to think of them as normal … you’re very right, that’s something I haven’t been doing but it would make interactions a lot better!!

        1. Eleanor Shellstrop*

          I’ve struggled with this too! I am also in my first post college office job and although I just work at the front desk there are times when I do have to ask the high up executives for information, or go knock on their closed doors to deliver things.
          It was extremely nerve-wracking at first until I realized what boredatwork said, they are all normal people! They also are likely to have NO idea that you feel intimidated and weird, and they will not know that you feel like this unless you outwardly signal it, so just be polite, calm, and straightforward. It’s not a big deal unless you make it one :)

        2. boredatwork*

          As someone who has aged from “newbie” to probably that person you’re afraid to interrupt, trust me, we’re all normal. If someone is extremely put out by your existence, they’re a jerk and you shouldn’t take that as an okay professional norm.

          Another point about the lurking, you’re not meant to hear every conversation, announcing your presence is appreciated.

      2. Snubble*

        “no one likes a lurker”

        We had a temp once who spent several full minutes standing just behind my right shoulder, out of my peripheral vision, waiting for me to notice her so she could ask me a question without feeling she’d interrupted. I was aware after a minute or so that she probably wanted me, but I was morbidly curious about how long she would stand in silence where I couldn’t actually see her, trying to get my attention via telepathy. The answer was, long enough that I gave up.

        I did suggest that next time she should just speak to me, but apparently she’d been waiting for me to finish the task I was working on, because it looked like I was concentrating – I was, but that task was about three days long. She was not persuaded.

    3. Federal Middle Manager*

      I still follow this protocol and I’m in upper management. If my boss is talking to her boss (the CEO-equivalent), I wait as long as it takes.

    4. Ann Perkins*

      Ask your manager sometime what she would like you to do. Some want as long as it takes and some need a prodding to stay on schedule. My boss is back to back meetings all day and has a glass door, so anyone he meets with regularly knows they can knock and he’ll give a hand symbol: he’ll either wave you in, put up a 1 to stay “stick around, I just need 1 more minute” or he’ll put up a five if he needs five more minutes.

    5. Basia, also a fed*

      This happens all the time where I work. I go back to my desk and send an email. I put “let me know when you’re ready to talk” in the subject.

  36. MYOB*

    I work in a small office as a secretary. I have regular hours, but periodically come in early or stay late. One [non-supervisory] employee, who often works unpredictable hours, has taken to asking why I’m there every time I’m in early (or she thinks I’m in early) or late. I don’t feel I owe her an explanation for my presence, and this is really starting to get on my nerves. Any scripts I can use to politely discourage this questioning?

      1. Garland not Andrews*

        This! Keep it short, truthful (you are just working), and uninformative. In other words, boring! After all work is just work!

    2. Not Me*

      “Why do you ask?” Then don’t tell her why you’re working outside your normal schedule.

      1. valentine*

        Yes:

        Naris: Why so early?
        MYOB: Why do you ask?
        Naris: Do I have to have a reason?
        MYOB: Do I?

        or:
        Naris: I’m sorry I care about you!
        MYOB: I accept. Let us never speak of it again. *raises eyebrows/smiles*

        or:
        Naris: *confesses reason*
        MYOB: I see./That makes sense./Oh./Is that right?

    3. Lucy*

      I wouldn’t answer directly. I’d assume it was social grooming, like “nice weather we’ve been having” or “how about the sportsball” or whatever, and answer with other empty social grooming.

      “You’re in early, MYOB.”
      “Morning, Cordelia. Coffee’s hot.”

      And turn back to your spreadsheet/emails/reports.

      You’re right, she’s not entitled to know, so act as though she isn’t asking.

    6. The Man, Becky Lynch*

      I get asked this too, despite being in the most flexible position in the entire company and just adhering to a set of core hours, which gives me a lot of wiggle room. The response is to just chuckle at them because it’s like “Surely you know the reason, I’m here now so I can leave early.”

      I get the “Burning the midnight oil, eh?” comments when I’m here late too from the late shift. Thankfully I like everyone and their tone is never incredulous or something, so I just chuckle and go along with my work.

    7. Seven hobbits are highly effective, people*

      I usually just respond with something like “I’m thinking of just moving in here – I could get one of those loft beds from Ikea and put it right over my desk”. (Usually it’s our custodian noticing that I’m working late, which she does need to ask about since I’m allowed to work later than her if needed and the last one out needs to put on the building alarm, so I don’t mind her asking how late I’ll be working. I trot out the Ikea comment if she comments on how many days in a row I’m working late. I work late because I don’t do mornings if I don’t have to, so I shift my schedule as late as I can based on other work needs.)

  37. Aly Dee*

    What websites are the best for job searching? I’ve seen quite a few posts/comments on here stating that a lot of hiring managers don’t post on Monster or Indeed, but that seems to be all that comes up as I’m looking for a new job! What has worked for all of you? If it helps I’m looking for a job in pharmaceuticals. Thanks!

    2. Fortitude Jones*

      I used Indeed and Glassdoor to find jobs to apply to and then went directly to the company’s website to officially apply. My brother also recommended getting a list of the Fortune 500 list and going through to find companies that are in your particular field and then going on their website to see if they have any current openings. I did that two job searches ago, and it didn’t do much for me, but my brother swears his friend used that method and got his job with Coca Cola that way.

    3. Check it out*

      Sometimes when local colleges have job fairs they will have a list of all of the companies who are attending On their website. You can check out who is there then go to the websites of those companies to see what jobs they have open. If you do something like this, you can even search the specific departments like the College if Engineering, or the College of Business to Get to more relevant positions.

    4. AudreyParker*

      Glassdoor and LinkedIn, primarily, and Indeed. Also individual companies’ websites if there are ones I’m interested in, as that will be most up-to-date. Sometimes there are industry-specific sites, too, or industry-related orgs/associations that share job openings – maybe there’s one for pharma? I’ve heard that Google Jobs can be useful, but I haven’t really found it any better than the other options at this point.

    5. Amethyst*

      Indeed, hands down. It’s the best one I’ve found, & the most comprehensive. I also go to ratracerebellion dot com for WFH jobs (they curate a list of legit ones & post them daily on their website; they also have a FB page under the same name where they’ll post new/popular/in demand jobs when they come up daily).

      To a lesser extent, I’ll check my state’s hiring website (for state AND non-state jobs) but it’s been more of a miss than a hit. Sometimes I’ll apply to a job I saw advertised on FB under [town/county] Open Forum or Bulletin, etc. I’ll also check out the career section of each major hospital network here. Google Jobs is another I occasionally will use under the search “ZIP CODE jobs”.

      I’ve found that Monster, Snagajob, & Career Builder are complete wastes of time, & I don’t bother going to those sites.

  38. Anon anony*

    I’m not sure exactly how to phrase this without sounding unsympathetic, but how do you say “I’m sorry” without sounding like pushover. If someone can’t log-in to the database because it is down, I “apologize for any inconvenience” but is that too cold? I’m just sick of apologizing for things out of my control.

    1. londonedit*

      Instead of apologising, you could try saying ‘Thank you for your patience’ or ‘Thank you for waiting’. It still acknowledges that there was a problem, but it means you’re not always apologising for things that aren’t really within your control.

      1. Lucy*

        +1

        You can sympathise without apologising. Alternative scripts might go along the lines of “Thank you for your report/ticket. It is frustrating not to be able to log on at this time. We expect to have the full system back online by midday, but in the meantime the workaround is (details).”

        1. LaDeeDa*

          Yes! This! Thank someone for what they are doing, or what you want them to do, “thank you for your patience, we are working to resolve the issue…”

    2. Rusty Shackelford*

      I don’t think the word “sorry” conveys that you’re a pushover. “Oh yeah, sorry, the database is down” seems pretty appropriate to me.

  39. Chau*

    I recently started a new job. I’ve been there for 3 months and I was really excited to join it at first because I thought it would be a step up from my previous company. Turns out, there is so much wrong with the way my department does its work. The person who was in my position before I came along apparently did a really poor job and presumably that’s why they left/were let go. Anyway, a lot of the files I’m working on have incorrect information. The reports I prepare make no sense. Files are saved in places that are not really logical. Since, I’m really familiar with the work they do here, I’ve been able to catch up quickly. My coworker was responsible for preparing a daily report, that was extremely time consuming. It took over one hour to prepare, download the data, and manipulate it in the format we needed. It took her a week for her to show me how to do this. When I realized what the final info she was looking for, I realized that the process was really unnecessary. So I suggested a quicker way to pull that info. She seemed annoyed and told me that’s the way our manager wanted us to pull the info. When I went to our manager and showed him it took me 15 minutes to pull the same info, he agreed that it more efficient and okayed it. But it seems every time I bring up an idea, it gets shot down. My coworker says that’s the way the manager wants it done/that’s the way it’s always been done. For example, I have monthly reports to update and each month, they are saved in a different location. This makes it confusing to see what has been done already and this creates multiples copies of the same file which I find really confusing. I went to my coworker and suggested we move the files to a central location and not create copies each month. She seemed really annoyed and said it’s always been done this way and we should keep it that way. I tried to explain what I was doing but she ended up just taking the files back from me. I’m afraid off coming off as the know it all but I really have a hard time working in an environment like this. I could just update my own proceses but we all work in shared files. I know I can’t do a complete system overhaul on my own but if I have an idea that makes everyone’s job easier, I’d like to be able to share it with the team.

    1. ArtK*

      Keep doing what youu’re doing. Dont’ try to manage your co-worker’s feelings. She’s likely resiting because she hates change. She has her habits and doesn’t want to learn new things. That’s all her problem. “We’ve always done it this way” is the very last reason to use to continue to do something.

      1. valentine*

        I don’t get why you’re treating her like a manager, unless she owns the process (which, no?, because she doesn’t say her way or no way). So. Share with the team, maybe after meeting with your supervisor about how you’d like to streamline things and come up with a method (telling him first, presenting at a team meeting, anything but telling the naysayer), then ask for advice on how to respond to resistance.

    2. Garland not Andrews*

      You need to get the supervisor on board (as you already have) and have her request that your coworker follow the new protocol for the reports and even for a centralized file location and naming structure.

    3. Maya Elena*

      A word of caution: I also had a lot of these feelings at a previous job, and then started all gung ho in process overhaul, only to find stumbling blocks such as:
      -the easier data source isn’t as reliable as and doesn’t agree with the more annoying one
      -the share drives, due to more global IT issues, fails unpredictably and often, and so cannot be used as a reliable repository
      -the specialized software has limitations that prevent implementation of your obvious solution, and nothing better exists on the market
      -90% of the info you process comes in X format, which you accommodated for, but 10% comes in this other format for which your process breaks down and requires the same workarounds that existed before you came got there, because they already saw those pitfalls but didn’t document them in exhaustive detail.

    4. Auntie Social*

      You’re also pretty new. I can see why co-workers might think “why don’t you learn go do it our way before you try overhauling a system that works for the rest of us?” I’ve trained staff who want to do things the way the way their old office did it, or not want to go into the detail that we did. It’s annoying when there’s no respect from the new hire. But you could certainly do a detailed memo to Boss, and if he likes your ideas let him be the one to announce the changes to everyone.

    5. The Man, Becky Lynch*

      Do not just take this coworker as the end-all, continue to push by going to management.

      I’ve seen this in my company with previous employees that were here and thankfully now gone, they were all about “oh no no no this is just how we do it.” and when I pointed out to the manager my ideas, he green lit everything I threw his way.

      It may rock the boat and it may make your coworker a grouchy pants but she already is that way, you can’t control her feelings. Don’t let this prickly pear make it so you stay quiet and just toe the line.

    6. Analytical Tree Hugger*

      I have been here, too. I agree with Maya Elena that some caution is warranted, since it’s not always clear why things are the way they are (though “This is how we’ve always done things” is not a good sign).

      Having been in a similar position (and still spearheading changes, six years later), I would suggest:

      1) Take some time to observe the way things are before suggesting changes/ideas, so you learn the bigger picture and history.
      2) Discuss your changes during set meetings with your manager, so you aren’t throwing them piecemeal and possibly annoying your manager.
      3) Agree with Auntie Social that it would be best for the change to come from your boss, rather than you.

    7. Good luck with that*

      Do you think making new files each month might possibly be done because the company needs to keep the previous month’s version without overwriting it?
      Maybe the files are organized the way they are for a similar reason; instead of always putting report A in the Report A folder and report B in the Report B folder, they might be all in folders by month or quarter.
      If you’re writing over files your coworkers need to keep, in what you consider the interest of consistency or efficiency or whatever, I don’t blame them for being a touch testy.

    8. ..Kat..*

      Can you link files? For example, suppose file A is in location X, Y, and Z. Can you put file A in location X, then in locations Y and Z, you simply put a link to file A in location X? That way, there is really only one copy of file A.

  40. Phoenix Programmer*

    Anyone on here using blind?
    Is it actually useful or just a bunch of complaining. I’m curious if there could be useful insights on there.

      1. fposte*

        It looks like it’s an anonymous chat app popular with employees in Silicon Valley (and unpopular with the companies).

    2. Federal Middle Manager*

      Seems like…not a good idea. We occasionally use anonymous surveys for things that could use both discretion and feedback, but they should be tailored to specific (solvable) problems. Not a free-for-all.

  41. Anastasia Krupnik*

    I have a phone interview coming up next week. The job posting mentioned that the organization has offices in two different cities, but also said, “Remote work options are possible with this position.” I am truly only interested in the position if it can be a remote position, as relocating to either of the two cities is not possible for me right now. I did not mention this in my cover letter when I applied. At what point in the process should I bring it up?

    1. fposte*

      Phone interview seems like a good time, unless it’s a totally by-the-numbers screen by somebody who wouldn’t know.

    2. LaDeeDa*

      I would ask during the phone interview, no need to go further or waste anyone’s time if it won’t work.

    3. quirkypants*

      I’d bring it up in the screening call.

      My reasoning: For full-time remote work, I find it is most successful if they are on board with it from the beginning. I find in cases where they only consider it for super star candidates, it rarely works out and there’s typically some kind of weirdness or wishful thinking you were in the office. Plus, I don’t want to waste my time going to an interview if they’re not going to be ok with it.

    4. Interplanet Janet*

      I would ask, but do it as if you assume it’s a given, since they mention it as a possibility in the ad and you don’t live in one of the cities that has an office.

      “And … I’d be working from my home office, right? I mean, a commute to Philadelphia from St Louis would be kind of crazy!”

      1. Fortitude Jones*

        That’s exactly how I broached it with the HR recruiter who conducted my phone screen. I’m now working fully remote from home (yay!), and everyone seems to be perfectly okay with it. It also helps that my manager is in an entirely different country as are most of my direct team members, and they’ve hired another person in my position who will be based out of the home office, so everybody wins.

  42. Cruciatus*

    I work in a large academic library system, though at a smaller campus within it. This didn’t happen to me, but to my coworker. She finally received an “exceeds expectations” and…it was denied by the main campus powers that be. WTF? How can they know she DIDN’T exceed expectations? Our supervisor does not give these ratings out like candy (I myself was just “successful” overall, but did exceed in one or two places). I don’t really know what my question is–but has anyone navigated something like this or can explain how/why they are doing this (“to save money” seems the only answer I can come up with). How can they determine this when they aren’t her supervisor? I am indignant on her behalf! (And what if it’s me in the future?) As it is, our “merit raise” will be some weird number like 1.7% (for me this is only a few hundred dollars–that’s all I get each year as a “raise”). Oooooooh. I’m hoping she will fight back but I don’t know where she should even start (though I think she is talking with our supervisor and director about it).

    1. Queen of the File*

      They do this in my workplace occasionally. From what I understand in our case they are “curving” the performance ratings to fit a “normal” results distribution (rather than using a curve to check the validity of their evaluation tool), like curving grades on an exam. So, if they are expecting to have, say, 5% exceeds expectations, but 8% of the staff receives this rating, they will arbitrarily take it away from 3% of the people. There was push-back from staff but it went nowhere.

      1. Admin of Sys*

        Yeah, this. I haven’t seen it happen directly, but it was explained to me that if too many people get ‘exceeds expectations’ then the expectations are too low. Mind you, in our workplace that was kick-backed to the managers to adjust things, not just arbitrarily taken away? Doing it based on pure math is completely unfair, since the people who lose the rating may be the ones truly outperforming the other folks.

      2. JustaTech*

        Yup, this has happened to me too. Bosses rate their direct reports, the next level up approves those ratings and it goes up the food chain. That’s fine unless the over lords decide that only X people are allowed to be “exceeds expectations”. Then the bosses all have to wrangle over which person from their org will be allowed this coveted rating.

        One place I’ve worked the overlords were mad that more people weren’t in the “needs improvement” category, ignoring that those people had either 1) improved or 2) left.

        Badly implemented (as it often is) it’s a terrible system that favors people who work for the Big Bosses who are either the best talkers or have the most clout.

    2. WellRed*

      At a part time retail job, the general manager, who I had never worked with, gave me some sort of rating I did not agree with. It didn’t impact me in any way except it annoyed me on principle. I signed the damn thing, but pointed out what I strongly disagreed with. Made me feel better.

    3. KayEss*

      This happened to me the last time I worked in higher ed. Departmental (and institutional) budget situation was so bad that managers were forbidden in advance from giving anyone an “exceeds expectations” rating–my manager let me know in my review that she wanted to give me one but wasn’t allowed to.

      Incidentally, we got no COL increase that year either, and a year later were all laid off.

    4. Pay no attention to the man behind the curtain*

      I’ve had this happen. My boss gave me the highest rating (a 5) in one category out of like 10 categories, and his boss dropped it to a 4 which was still better than just meets expectations (3). Around here, you have to cure cancer, negotiate world peace, and end homelessness singlehandedly before they allow a 5. My grand boss is aware of my accomplishments and it isn’t indicative of my performance at all. This is more of an unwritten campus “policy” that they don’t think anyone ever really earns a 5.

      1. Sabrina Spellman*

        +1. This is how it is at my work, too. You have to do something big for the institution, not just your department, to earn a 5.

  43. the sleepiest owl*

    First week of new job! First office job I’ve worked in over a decade (I did a terminal MA, a humanities PhD, and a year of post-PhD depression). I was hit really hard by my transition out of academia, both mentally/emotionally (feeling like a failure) and professionally (no obvious industry to move into) and I feel really lucky to finally have something that might turn into an actual career. And the job and people are all fantastic! But I’m still feeling unsure about how I can best handle the transition.

    Can any other former academics who switched to a 9-5 office job share your advice? Or people who moved from a freelance or flexible creative career into more rigidly scheduled work? What are things you wish you’d known starting out? Give me some reasons to feel positive and excited instead of terrified! (Please don’t share disaster stories or “this would never work for me” type comments here. I have enough problems with internal negativity already!)

    Thanks!

    1. londonedit*

      I freelanced for four years and then went back into a full-time office environment. It’s been great, but the transition period is absolutely shattering! So my top tip there would definitely be to make sure you keep your first few evenings and weekends free for relaxing and looking after yourself – for me, the shock of having to get up at 6.30am five days a week made me really tired in the first few weeks, and I needed a couple of quiet weekends to decompress and forget about work. Also, you’re in a new office environment with different people’s germs, so make sure you eat well, drink lots of water and use hand sanitiser!

      1. the sleepiest owl*

        Thanks! I’ve been feeling utterly flattened every evening and worried that this was going to be the rest of my life, so it’s really helpful to know that this is a common transition thing! Also, thanks for the advice about germs. It hadn’t occurred to me, but this is not only a new job, it’s also in a new state, so I should definitely be taking health more seriously.

    2. medium of ballpoint*

      I found that the rest of my life also got on a more routine schedule (cleaning, shopping, etc.) and that helped with decision fatigue and general organization. I’ll echo Owl about health; Clorox wipes are your friend. Also think about what you can take to your office that’ll help you feel comfortable. Do you want a shawl, a tea stash, a photo, a handheld fan, a specific kind of keyboard? You can’t access those things on the fly as easily. Make the space your own as much as you can/are comfortable with and that might help a bit. Good luck!

      1. the sleepiest owl*

        Ooh, good point! I should definitely bring my shawl and a functional mouse. And some tea! I do have a great half-office in a cool old building, and I think you’re right that creating my own space will really help me feel more relaxed.

    3. user679*

      I have a similar background to yours: a humanities PhD and now a job that has absolutely nothing to do with my academic career.

      It’s my third position outside of academia.

      Is it easy? The thing is, I’m very analytical and fact-oriented (doesn’t sound like humanities, does it? But yes, it’s a quite realistic description of me). More analytical than most people in academia, not to mention people outside of academia. And I find it difficult to deal with office politics, the necessity to to shut up in the right moments, to be very humble in order for nobody to feel threatened by me. I’m used to constructive, academic discussions, talking about facts. At the companies I’ve worked at so far, there was nothing similar.

      I think academia is seen as vocation by most, a job… is just a job. So if I were you, I would try not to take it too seriously. Have your own life outside of work. Develop your skills outside of work.

      Good luck!

    4. Anonymousaurus Rex*

      Academic, turned applied PhD here. The transition to office work is hard mentally, especially when you’re used to working your own schedule and having flexibility. Be nice to yourself and expect to be exhausted spending 40 hours (or more) in an office every week. There are good parts to it — it’s much easier for me to leave work at work now. It’s also incredible having stable, predictable income. But it’s an adjustment, for sure.

    5. Overeducated*

      Congratulations! I did the same thing, and honestly it still is tough at times not having the academic schedule flexibility and closure during school breaks specifically. I’m a few years into office work and still haven’t “adjusted” to that. But I think it’s legit to say “hey there are some things about standard American work culture that are just not great for workers” and not love or even appreciate everything about your job.

      But! This is a positive comment, I swear! There are good things that I think mostly make up for that. Here are mine:
      1) Opportunity. I’ve switched jobs laterally once and gotten a 20% promotion once in less than three years, without having to switch employers or move out of my city, and I see a lot of potential ways to move in my organization in the long term. I’ll probably never be a full time researcher, but it feels like there are more paths to follow than “tenure track or bust,” and that’s kind of exciting.
      2) This is a cliché, but I don’t bring work home with me or worry about it on weekends. (That’s actually how I treated grad school most of the time so it wasn’t a big change, but I think this is more of a draw for a lot of people who found it harder to “turn off” academic work. And honestly, maybe that’s a reason it wasn’t for me, I think teaching and service demands only increase after the PhD while research expectations stay high.)
      3) Having coworkers! This is such a big deal to me, and one of the reasons I left – a lot of academic work is very solitary and sometimes competitive, my office job experience is much more collaborative. I miss teaching, but I get much more day to day interaction with my colleagues and problem solving together, and that’s great.
      4) The end of impostor syndrome. People just accept that I am the expert in the entire broad area that’s the scope of my job, instead of me feeling like I always have to prove that I know the most about a particular niche. All my insecurity around being good enough vanished shockingly fast.
      5) Financial security. I found grant applications and temporary jobs like postdocs very stressful. I don’t have to do those now. What a relief!

      Best of luck in your new job! And no need to be terrified – you probably will fit in more easily than you realize. Here are the two things I’ve learned over time:
      1) Get used to “briefing up” and keeping your boss(es) and team members more up to date on projects than you would in academia. Partial drafts or “here’s a thing that came up” emails/check ins need to be a lot more frequent because you’re not the only one responsible for your work any more, and others are more likely to be called on to update THEIR superiors on where it is. This is also something that varies by office culture so pay attention to who gets cc’ed on emails, invited to meetings and calls, casually asked for advice, etc.
      2) This is just a resume-based thing – but a lot of the time, what people will count as “projects” or “responsibilities” seem to me like minor things I’d never even bother mentioning in academia, but do count elsewhere. Look around and see what counts so that you don’t discount what you’re doing.

    6. Federal Middle Manager*

      Struggling with this transition is very real! My partner had difficulty with no longer being surrounded by people who were immersed and experts in their field. He struggled with how compartmentalized people were and that they were not interested in solving things that “aren’t my problem.” I’d recommend finding professional organizations, newletters, or associations that you can be involved in to get that kind of interaction and feedback.

      Also, if you’re interested then staying connected in some way via meet ups, university lectures or other groups can be helpful. That was a big part of your life for years and years, it’s hard to transition to not having it be mentioned at all and not having anyone to talk to about it.

      Finally, think back on all the times you were jealous of people who weren’t completely submerged in their studies…what did you daydream of doing if you had evenings and weekends free (like you do now)? Would you take up an instrument? Go to more city counsel meetings or protests? Take up quilting? Go to the beach over Labor Day or Memorial Day instead of prepping for beginning/end of the semester? DO THAT NOW!

    7. Dr. Vanessa Poseidon*

      It’s been almost exactly two years since I started my first full-time office job after completing a humanities phd. No really specific advice, just seconding the idea to be kind to yourself while you settle in. You’ve got this! It gets better :)

    8. The New Wanderer*

      I alternated years of grad school with various office jobs so the last transition from PhD to office job wasn’t too hard, but it was physically exhausting. Feeling glued to a computer for 8+ hours a day is tiring in a way people don’t expect at first, not to mention the more “normal” waking hours.

      The other thing I had a hard time with might be somewhat field or role dependent, but I come from a research background and still do a fair amount. I’m all about lit reviews and citing my sources and dredging up references to make a point. And very few people care. My personal opinion carries weight in a way I’m not 100% comfortable with, as in people are happy to accept whatever I come up with because of my perceived expertise. Fortunately I’m very concerned about being wrong so I do back everything up for my own peace of mind, but again very few people read the full reports or care if I do a reasonable lit review before coming up with an answer.

      The flip side is, there are some people who get away with shoddy work because no one really peer reviews it, and that drives me crazy! But, so far the handful of people who do this aren’t in positions to do any damage with poorly thought out work, so it’s not worth my reputation to call them out, so to speak.

      To sum up: the new schedule will be rough. You will care about the academics of your (and others’) work much more than anyone else. Your opinion may be highly valued beyond what you’re used to, use it wisely.

    9. blackcat*

      In addition to what others have said, here are two things that have been challenging for my husband. He’s in STEM, but I think this is general.
      1) He wasn’t used to people telling him directly what to do. He had a fair bit of freedom in his research, and was used to the idea of following a random thought for a day or two and seeing if it panned out. That’s 100% not done in his company! A few hours, sure, but an entire day? Nope, not considered okay. So the loss of intellectual freedom was a big adjustment.
      2) He was used to wanting his work to be EXCELLENT. Like flawless, perfect, kinda stuff. I think this is common with academics. Yet in the work world, “good enough” is really good enough! So letting go of his perfectionism was also important.
      Good luck!

    10. Boba Feta*

      Posting to bookmark this thread. You sound like my future self (I have nearly the exact same background/ negative experience in deciding to leave and am still trying to land that post-academic job).

      These tips sound like they would also be helpful even before the full-time role happens: esp. about maintaining a regular “workday” routine and allowing for more down time/ space in the evenings/ weekends.

  44. Anonymousaurus Rex*

    I have an interview today for two internal positions. One would be a lateral move (Sr Specialist), the other a step up (managing that team). I applied because the positions are all remote, and I’m planning to move away from my current location very soon. The thing is, the interview is remote too, via WebEx, and I’ve never met the person I’m interviewing with (she’s in another state, and is new to my company). For remote interviews, is it common to use a webcam, or just stick to the phone? (It’s not a phone screen, that was done by HR). My company culture is that we all have webcams, but they are used very very rarely. I plan to look presentable in case she asks me to turn on the camera, but I don’t want to waste time prepping my looks if there’s no need (I’m taking the interview from home). Thoughts??

    Also, I have all of the skills needed for either position, but I don’t have direct experience with the specific process I’d be managing/contributing to. I’m interviewing with someone who has LOTS of expertise in this specific process, so my plan is just to be upfront that this would be a new area for me. But any advice on how to frame myself competitively?? I honestly probably wouldn’t have applied to these roles if it weren’t for the need to become remote. (I’m also in the process of trying to make my current position remote, but that has lots of leadership hurdles to pass). All advice welcome. I’m a ball of nerves.

    1. LaDeeDa*

      Be ready to webcam, just in case :)

      You don’t have to be an expert in the area to manage the people who are the expert. Also, you do have transferable skills– just because you don’t know that specific process, you know similar process and were (are!) able to learn new processes.

      I would talk about knowing your business/company/industry, I would talk about the benefits of having someone from your current team in that role- understanding the bigger picture of how everything works together, having a good network of relationships to form partnerships for collaboration on current and future projects. Something along those lines– don’t focus on what you don’t know, focus on the strategic thinking you can bring to that role/department.

      Good luck! Let us know how it goes!

    2. Interplanet Janet*

      Definitely plan on the camera for a webex interview. And take a couple of minutes to make sure your background isn’t super cluttered and that there’s not a bright light right behind you.

      You frame yourself competitively by first figuring out for yourself how your experience applies. If you’ve been cleaning teapots, and the job requires cleaning dessert plates, you say, “I’ll obviously need to come up to speed on the specifics of dessert plates, but the basic cleaning skills should cross over nicely.” If you’ve been cleaning teapots, and the new job requires painting teapots, you say, “The specifics colors to use will be new, so I’ll need some training there, but I already know my way around a teapot!” Like that.

      Good luck!

    3. Anonymousaurus Rex*

      Update – Interview went really well! She asked all behavioral and situational type questions, so my lack of experience in the particular area I was worried about never really came up. I used lots of Alison’s suggestions for questions to ask her, and got a lot of insight into the role(s). Also, no webcam, but I felt more confident wearing a blazer with nice looking hair and enough makeup to make me look alive via webcam knowing that I looked professional in case I needed to turn on the camera.

      1. Fortitude Jones*

        Congrats on surviving your interview! My current job had me interview with three managers remotely, and we didn’t use webcam either, which was surprising because they’re a software company so I assumed they would have wanted to do that. Apparently, my company culture is a lot like yours in that we have the capability to do video chats, but no one really does. That could also be because half our workforce are in different countries and time zones, so asking people to be up and presentable when they’re at home at 5 am may not always be practical.

  45. Absurda*

    Does anyone have advice on how to structure and manage a weekly status report for long term projects that don’t have weekly updates?

    Some background: Exec. VP has asked our Senior VP to send him a weekly status report on everything going on in the SVPs team. The weekly cadence is non-negotiable. The construction and management of the status report has been delegated down to me. The challenge is our projects have timelines measured in quarters and years, so there aren’t really weekly updates. The weekly work is important for the overall project (stuff like logging an SR for a bug or having a call to discuss future enhancement requests) but that is far too granular for an EVP.

    Any suggestions on how to do weekly updates that keep it high-level and interesting?

    1. Admin of Sys*

      Are there any milestones you can assign as percentages of the overall project? Something like – it’s a 3 month project to get the application completed, and part of that process is building the framework, writing and testing the ui, running through test data, and finalizing the code. So set up a percentage marker for each component of the larger milestones and show the movement per week. The team got 50% closer to finishing the UI, because there were 6 milestones defined as ‘writing the ui’ and you got 3 of them done. It doesn’t actually have to be an accurate portrayal of time spent or effort, it just needs to be something to show forward progress. And honestly, having milestones on large projects is a lifesaver for a lot of people, even if 60% of the work is sometimes done on the last 10% of the project.

    2. ArtK*

      How are your projects managed? If you’re using something like Earned Value Management, the reports practially write themselves. If you’re using another project management technique, you should be able to create percentage values for active tasks and a list of completed and pending tasks. At worst, print out a GANTT chart and send it in.

      Scrum can be very good for this, because you do a review every sprint.But that requires a major cultural change.

    3. writelhd*

      We have to do a weekly snapot kind of thing like this, but I do projects that are mostly year long/month long things. So I have a progress bar for each of my three big projects for the year, consisting of ten excels cells that get shaded in when I feel I’ve made the next 10% jump in project completion. I further break those down into monthly focus sub-project: Every month gets 1 or 2 focus projects that support one of the big ones (the shading for each is color-coded to so reflect), and those have their own progress bars that are updated weekly…those progress bars are 25%/50%/75%/100% intervals. I actually started doing this for ME, to help me feel motivated and actually feel like I was seeing progress, and to help me focus on smaller projects to completion instead of just zipping around between them as would be my un-disciplined wont…but it worked well for what I have to present to management too.

    4. Interplanet Janet*

      I use an anticipation completion date. If the project is still on track with that, I just use a phrase like, “development is continuing according to schedule” and then perhaps highlight if some interesting milestone has been reached during the previous week. If the project has slipped, I’ll mention the change (or risk of change) to the projected completion date and indicate why the change.

    5. Green great dragon*

      High level and interesting may be too tough a task. I do this, and some weeks it’s just ‘continued to work on x and y, still on track for testing on 47th Junober, no new issues’. Then reattach the project plan/timeline.

    6. Absurda*

      Thanks everyone, this helps a lot! We’re not formally trained project managers, we’re Ops and everyone has their own ways of tracking their projects. But, getting them to list out milestones and dates up front then tell me % of completion each week should be doable.

  46. MOAS*

    I mentioned in an earlier post that our HR is so lacking that my bosses are going to be screening 900+ resumes. That just seems so….idk.

    So far with HR —

    -someone emailed their resignation at 6 AM and HR didn’t notify us until 6 PM. People were wondering and asking around and no one knew until thy reached out to HR. “Oh I forgot I’m so hungover haha’
    -job offer extended to a candidate for a job she wasn’t interviewed for
    -asked if I was a fluffer twice
    -lied about a former worker’s references being glowing when he was actually a nightmare to deal with
    -was supposed to fire a few people but ended up being out of the office for 4 weeks which prolonged everyone’s misery
    -has waited 4 days to extend an offer letter to someone
    -was supposed to extend offer letters to current seasonal workers but took so long that they ended up looking for a job and we lost a good worker
    -a person started and then quit 3 days later. apparently they had contacted HR with their reservations wanting to back out early in the process but HR failed to notify anyone

    we have an in house recruiter but they set their own hours, and HR has been slow to bring on a new full time recruiter so until then…my bosses are doing the job that another dept should be doing.

      1. MOAS*

        she meant it as a joke.
        OK so thee had asked to look over an email I was sending out to clients (yes this is another annoying thing that they’re trying to insert themselves in to the work we’re doing when they don’t have the relevant degrees/licensing). I said “oh yes boss has said to fluff things up via email.” “fluff up emails? ah so you’re a fluffer?!” and they cackled really loudly, so i know they know what that means.

        Sigh. I don’t even care about the fluffer comment cz anyone else it’d be funny but just allt he other stuff..argh!

    2. Jaid*

      Assuming you’re not working for a porn studio, why would anyone ask you if you’re a fluffer?

    3. ArtK*

      Asked if you were a ‘fluffer’? Unless that term has a meaning that I don’t know, that amounts to sexual harassment.

    4. The Man, Becky Lynch*

      Dude. HR isn’t untouchable, does this person have an executive in their pocket or something!? Have all these things been sent to the person who can fire this dimwit?! Especially considering the sexual harassment that you were subjected to, I would ring that bell so hard. It doesn’t matter that really you don’t care about the comments but this is your perfect ammo to get this horrible person out of your organization.

      I’m pretty relaxed in terms of HR standards and none of this is acceptable behavior, it’s downright not doing their job and engaging in misconduct.

  47. Lightly Scented Candle*

    I work at a large corporation that’s going through a reorg, and I just got my six weeks’ notice yesterday — I can either find another role internally in a different division or be terminated. Now I’m wondering if I should start immediately applying for external jobs (as well as internal) or if I should give it a week or two and try to land on a different team first? Ideally I would prefer to stay within the company because of benefits/401k match/general familiarity, but I know hiring takes time and part of me thinks it would be stupid to wait… I’m still reeling a little.

    1. Sunday Morning Fever*

      I wouldn’t wait. Start applying now, you have nothing to lose. If you find something, great! If you find something that helps you get your feet wet for interviewing, great! If you find nothing, no harm done. But, there’s no reason you can’t apply for external jobs while also looking for an internal transfer.

    2. ArtK*

      Ugh. So sorry!

      I’d start looking externally right now. That process can take a long time and you don’t want a delay in that, in case you don’t find something internally. It’ll also give you some perspective about your current company.

    3. The Man, Becky Lynch*

      Start looking now because you don’t know what’s out there at the moment until you start diving in. You don’t have to jump and start throwing your resume every which way the first week or so but give yourself the footing to secure another possibly great external role if it’s out there ASAP!

  48. Mimmy*

    Workplace flexibility

    I know that many jobs require employees to be flexible–schedules or meetings for example. However, I honestly think it is possible to abuse that flexibility. Allowing too much flexibility, imo, leads to disorganization and overly lax standards or procedures.

    I think that is what is happening where I work. I was starting to describe the issues I’m seeing but I don’t want this post to get super-long. Some issues I see include: scheduling, staffing and intake eligibility. This is a government-run center, so that could explain why the loosey-goosey nature of things is allowed.

    What do you guys think? Is there such a thing as asking for too much flexibility?

    1. I'm A Little Teapot*

      Yes, you can get into a zone of nothing gets done/it’s way too disorganized. It’s a grey area though.

    2. Ama*

      I think you have to have ground rules when you have flexible schedules. At my office, you can ask for a flexible schedule but it needs to be consistent week to week — if you say you are working 8:30-4:30, you’re expected to be in and working at 8:30 every day. Obviously there are special exceptions allowed for doctor’s appointments or other things, but in those instances you need to mention any changes to your manager ahead of time, you can’t just decide on the fly that you’re working 10-6 because you wanted to run an errand that morning.

      And our other ground rule is that your schedule has to be compatible with your job responsibilities — the person responsible for desk coverage can’t work 10-6 unless someone else is willing to cover the 9-10 slot, I normally work 9:30-5:30 but sometimes I need to be in at 9 to take a conference call, or I have to stay late to staff an event.

      I do think if you don’t have ground rules (or if they aren’t clearly explained to people) it can lead to chaos. I had to have a talk with my direct report shortly after she started because she was coming in at different times every day without telling me — she was working an appropriate number of hours but it was causing some confusion because it was never clear whether she’d be in at 9 or 10. So we had a talk about what consistent schedules means and now if she wants to vary her usual schedule she talks to me first.

  49. Pebbles Bishop*

    So, I’m getting married next Saturday (YAY!). The problem is surviving at work until then. I have to work today, and then Monday, Tuesday, and most of Wednesday next week – and it’s KILLING me. I want to be home packing my bags. We’re doing a small beach wedding in San Diego and it’s all I can think about! It’s not a secret, my coworkers and manager all know and are excited for me, and so I’m not worried about being called out for being off my game. I just am not sure how to have some semblance of focus at work! I want to literally bounce off the walls and staring at a computer screen for eight hours is killing me.

    Any ideas/advice would be appreciated!

    1. Ms. Guacamole*

      I rely on to do lists for this. For some reason, focusing on ticking tasks off give me more focus than just trying to work in general.

      I had the same problem when I was about to get married and it happens every time I’m about to go on vacation. But if I can bury my brain in a to do list I can focus a little bitter.

        1. valentine*

          Your excitement is really sweet.

          What if you give yourself 10 minutes first thing to hyperfocus on it. Picture the dew on the fresh flowers and the particular swoosh of the doves’ wings. Like John Woo choreography, sans violence. Maybe you need to guess how many grains of sand will bear witness. And that’s it until you leave work. Or maybe you do a few five-minute sessions like this, spread throughout the day, and you have to complete your to-do list in between.

    2. epi*

      Sometimes it helps me to make shorter, big picture lists. I will limit myself to a five-item long to do list and describe the type of progress that would be the next step, rather than a particular task. So rather than “read article X” I’ll just have “understand topic Y” and plan to check it off when I feel that’s done. Then I do any of those five things in whatever order I want.

      When you don’t want to be at work can be a great time for either easy, mindless tasks; or pleasurable professional development tasks. Catch up on news related to your industry. See if any webinars you wanted to attend are archived online and watch them now. Pick an article and give yourself as much time as you need to read it for understanding, and just see what ideas come up.

  50. Sunday Morning Fever*

    Last week, new(ish) staffer seemed to take ownership of my advice, suggestions, and corrections. This week, he mostly just ignored what I told him or offered

    In multiple communications he either misread someone’s email or used the wrong wording to describe what he was working on. One lead to a client having to correct him and repeat themselves
    to ensure they got what they needed. I’m almost 90% sure it was because he’s busy and having a little trouble focusing because he wants to get it all done. I made it clear I had noticed the issue and asked if everything was ok. He didn’t apologize for the errors. He agreed with my assessment that he was busy and needed to pause before responding to make sure things were accurate. I offered to pick up some of his tasks, he did not take me up it. (I really don’t need a martyr on my team, I need someone who will get it done and when they can’t will ask for my help)

    He had an event off site and mentioned going to the location about a few hours in advance. I told him he didn’t have to. He did anyway. Totally fine, his call. But then later complained about being there so early.

    I asked him (verbally) to follow-up with a colleague after a meeting so that we could coordinate sending material out to clients ASAP. A few hours later I checked in with him on it (in writing), he had not followed up with colleague. No reason given, just that he hadn’t done it yet.

    Again, I don’t think he’s being insubordiant. I think he’s just not willing to admit that he’s not as knowledgable (capable?) as he wants to be and so makes silly mistakes. And although I have some tolerance for that because he’s new, some of these mistakes are easily avoidable.

    Obviously a conversation will need to be had… but it’s difficult when you work in an open office plan. Because again, I don’t want to make these issues monumental. They are issues, they can be corrected, and its not overly sensitive. But scheduling a meeting room to discuss these issues absolutely makes it seem much more serious than I want it to appear. I find these issues annoying, frustrating even. I don’t enjoy dealing with them. (Thank you for letting me vent) But, they’re not serious enough for a closed door meeting.

    1. I'm A Little Teapot*

      Do you have a break room? Grab a cup of coffee or something with him at a quieter time.

      1. Sunday Morning Fever*

        We don’t. We have a kitchen area, but no tables and it’s not far removed from where others sit. It’s just not an ideal situation for me to “manage” issues, which I’m not super comfortable with anyway. The whole scenario kind of just leaves me edgy and anxious maybe moreso than the actual issues themselves. (Maybe that’s why I’m fixated on the issues… but still, the issues are annoying)

          1. Sunday Morning Fever*

            We do, but I’m not sure it’s appropriate to say, hey let’s grab a coffee and discuss areas of improvement for your work. I feel like conversations about work should happen at work unless you want a conversation off the books. Though, I might be overthinking it.

            1. valentine*

              Please don’t offer to or do his work for him, especially if you’re a woman. (This always amazes me because I don’t get to do learned helplessness. I’m expected to figure stuff out.)

              They are issues, they can be corrected
              Are you sure? I’m thinking he’s not up to the job and is seizing on your speculation the way suspects confess to motives cops suggest. When you suggest nothing, he offers nothing. Why not fire him or tell him what he needs to do on his own and by when so that you won’t have to fire him? What are the benchmarks and is he on pace to reach them? His initiative seems to consist of leaving/arriving hours early (And doing what? Did he take work with him?) for the event. I hate to give you reason for delaying his exit, but: Are you being direct? “You don’t have to” isn’t “Don’t.” I would take it as a false kindness from a guess person: “Don’t go to any trouble for me.”

              I don’t enjoy dealing with them.
              Are you therefore actively avoiding them? If so, why? Don’t you want to either get him up to speed or replace him with someone who can ASAP?

              But, they’re not serious enough for a closed door meeting.
              They are. He’s failing at simple tasks and you’re spending a lot of time asking him about all the FUBAR and requesting updates he should be providing unprompted. If you add up the cost of your time and energy, aren’t those worth the closed door? (If you think he’ll feel bad, I’m thinking no. He seems like a real in one ear and off a duck’s back kinda guy.

    2. Commenter*

      If you’re this person’s supervisor, do you have regularly scheduled (weekly?) one-on-one (i.e. closed-door) meetings with them? That seems like the perfect time to discuss something like this, and would help remove the… stigma(?) that closed-door meetings should only be used for things that are “serious enough” (I’d feel *really* uncomfortable if my supervisor didn’t give me an opportunity to discuss things privately!!).

      1. Sunday Morning Fever*

        We do have regular 1 on 1’s but they happen in our conference room, which has no door.There’s literally one room with a door for those without offices and it doesn’t have a schedule (first come, first served), so it’s not always available. It’s just not a great space for managing.

    3. Mr. Shark*

      I think you just have to bite the bullet and have a one-on-one closed door meeting. Just pose it as a quick touch-base meeting (since he’s newish) and tell him it’s to make sure he’s getting all the support he needs and you are on the same page about expectations.

      It doesn’t have to be a big, grand discussion. A one-on-one is pretty standard check-in. If you have other direct reports, you can schedule them as well so it will be less of an issue (and it’s a good thing to do regardless of the situation).

    4. Phoenix Programmer*

      Honestly you need to be more direct and transparent. It’s a kindness to let your DR know what you expect and need from them, it’s miserable working for someone who is frustrated at you when you don’t know why.

      I don’t know if you dislike this DR or are at BEC mode, but as a manager you have to communicate. Your irritation is showing here – they didn’t apologize for a mistake. So? It’s pretty normal in business to acknowledge errors and address how to fix moving forward. Apologies for mistakes are rare IME.

      Also did you tell DR he needed to coordinate with coworker asap for a client deadline? It’s not clear that you did.

      I think you may not be communicating clearly yourself. Just talk even in front of others.

  51. decisions decisions*

    I wrote in the thread two weeks ago about being between a rock and a hard place with two companies. I decided to stay/risk with Company A. And I will move in the long term so my commute will cut down to one our (less isn’t possible, closer would mean either unsafe or even high COL).

  52. I'm A Little Teapot*

    Monday this week my small department added 2 new people to the management team. I think it’ll be a huge change to the team dynamic, and probably for the good. Just a bit bumpy initially.

    The one I’m working more closely with initially is making some judgement calls that I wish she’d hold off on. It’s your first week, you don’t know how this actually works yet, so maybe don’t tell me that I don’t need to do the thing that I absolutely do need to do in order to get the project done efficiently. However, I’m gonna get my revenge – new people are getting added to the big meeting with the client so they can see first hand what’s involved (the meeting’s not just a meeting, it’s a huge chunk of the actual work).

    1. Sunday Morning Fever*

      I feel you. Some people feel like they need to make an impact right away without having a solid understanding about how things work. Some may think it makes them look proactive and hitting the ground running. I find it impetuous and ill-informed…

      1. Fortitude Jones*

        I was hired into a new role where I’m basically upending the way an entire department operates, and everyone was informed ahead of time that I would be doing this. Still, I’ve been careful not to come in with guns blazing and am slowly coaching not only my teammates, but other SMEs within the company, on how to develop better written content for our proposal projects. I didn’t want anyone to feel like I was trashing their skills, calling them incompetent, or stepping on their toes – so far, everyone seems to be embracing the change and are open to learning. I think it’s because I didn’t come in and start shredding everything right away – approach and attitude is everything.

    2. Ama*

      I feel you on that. I got a new boss at a previous job and one of the very first things she said to me was basically proposing to fix a process that didn’t need to be fixed and which would have created a ton more work for everyone. (And to be honest I’m pretty sure grew out of a comment from one of my highest maintenance coworkers, who new boss hadn’t yet learned was fond of complaining about things literally no one else had a problem with.) I have never had a good poker face so I’m sure see saw the sheer panic on my face as I tried to politely explain why the “fix” proposed would not work. She just blew me off with, “well we can talk about it in more detail later” (I was about to leave for the day), but thankfully when she brought it to her boss he immediately shut it down, and apparently told her “Ama is completely right, and she has that process running super smoothly, it doesn’t need to be changed.”

      Although the interesting side effect of that was it apparently proved to her that my judgment was trustworthy and that when I said no to something there were valid reasons why I did so, I didn’t just say no because I was trying to avoid work or was afraid of change.

    3. I'm A Little Teapot*

      Update: I met with the other new person in a one on one. I think I like him. If what he’s saying he wants to do plays out with what he actually does, I think he’ll be really good for the department.

  53. DataGirl*

    I have a dilemma about how to proceed with my career. Little background- I am mid-40s working in IT for about 10 years now. My degree is not at all related to my career. In previous positions I did very technical work- but the position I’ve been in for the last 18 months or so is not really technical at all. It was sold to me as a technical job in vein of what I had been doing, but it has turned out that almost all I do is run reports and write instructions/policy. It’s an easy, acceptable yet boring job that I could probably ride out until retirement if I wanted, but there are things I don’t like. The biggest is that I was not told before hiring that there is a range for my title and I am at the max. They don’t give cost of living increases or raises past the range max- so as long as I work here I will never get a raise. I took a pay cut to come here thinking it was a dream job (HAAA!) and never thought I would be stuck at this level. (It’s a non-profit and pays under-market).

    I am tentatively looking for new work but I’m having trouble getting interviews on the direct feedback that what I do now is not technical/skilled enough and there are doubts about my abilities. The longer I stay in this job the harder it will be for me to go back to a highly technical job.

    The thing is- my current job is easy and that’s kind of nice. I have way less stress than in a 24/7 production environment, don’t have to be on call, have flex-time, wfh etc. I know from experience that a busy IT business can be super stressful. I have life stuff including chronic illness that are a drain on my time and mental health already. But I just rankle at my salary being frozen (among other things, but that’s the main one).

    So my dilemma- do I make a jump soon so that I can continue to grow in my field and my salary, or do I settle for a lower pay in exchange for an easier life, know that it will mean I’m derailing any possible career growth? I’m really torn. Any thoughts or advice is appreciated.

    1. Pebbles Bishop*

      Oohh. The lack of COL increases and raises is…kind of a red flag, in my opinion. I completely understand about having an easier job, but I don’t know if it would be worth never getting another raise, even a small COL. Could you look for a similar job at a different/bigger company that does offer COL/raises? You’d get to keep doing easy work, but in a better situation, and possibly with further opportunities to go back to technical work or move up in the work you’re currently doing.

      1. DataGirl*

        It’s one of the largest employers in the state- I’d actually like to downsize if possible. What I’m doing right now is very specialized -let’s say, administration for teapot repair workers training programs. I’m not sure the other teapot repair educators even have a position like mine- it’s not traditional in the field. I keep telling myself to use the time to take classes and get certification in the technical stuff, but time and life and money….

        1. Natalie*

          So, while I totally get the appeal of the low-stress job, by not giving COLAs they are *literally* paying you less every year. Inflation is always happening, even during recessions. This isn’t just stagnating, it’s taking a routine, small pay cut in exchange for the low stress.

          I’ve been in a similar situation – not the lack of inflation adjustments, but the easy, boring job that also seemed like a career trap. What I decided to do was keep job searching, but in a steady manner rather than an aggressive “must get out of this job now” type of attitude. And I spent some of my extra stress on a career development piece. In my case that was developing a side client, but for you that could be getting that certification.

    2. Interplanet Janet*

      Jump! Jump!

      Inertia is a strong force, but you’ll be so much happier if you are doing work you find more interesting, plus you’ll have the opportunity to get paid better?

      I’m in IT as well, and you’ve got a double whammy with your age and the fact that you’ve been in non-technical work. I would get out as soon as possible.

      1. Fortitude Jones*

        I would get out as soon as possible.

        Same. The longer you stay in a boring job, the more miserable you’ll become (ask me how I know), and that will exacerbate your chronic illness, which will make you resentful of your employer, and that will become evident sooner or later at your current job. Plus, it’ll be harder to move on the longer you wait to jump ship – you’re already having struggles finding something that’s a step up in your field because of this job. It’ll only get worse. If you value career advancement, then you need to make moves. Good luck!

      2. DataGirl*

        My age, ouch! I mentioned it in reference to having 20+ more years of working ahead of me, didn’t realize I am ‘old’.

    3. it happens*

      Just spitballin’ here, but is there any chance you can have the position re-classified to a higher band? Can you look at other positions in the next band that have similar impact or require analogous skills? (And, honestly, band mins/maxes should be inflation-adjusted every so often.) Otherwise, yeah, gotta choose between ease and $$$.

      1. Fortitude Jones*

        I would totally do this first before leaving if I loved the company; however, since these people misled her about her current position, I wouldn’t trust them to come through on the re-classification.

      2. DataGirl*

        The problem is that I am the only person doing IT work in my department. I don’t know if they have me classified with the other educational admin types or classified with other technical people who actually work in the IT department. Our HR is worse than useless so I don’t think I can find out. And there is no where for me to go- I’ll never be a manager in this department because they are all education people- I originally thought I could move to actual IT within the organization but from what I hear they are horribly overworked and also underpaid.

    4. Miss Pantalones en Fuego*

      You’re about the age my mother was when she started a whole new career. The way you’ve described your job I think you will be bored out of your mind by the time you hit retirement, not to mention that you will have a significantly lower salary than you should have. You can do it gently but I’d definitely start looking for something else, and focus at much as you can on the technical things that you are interested in.

      1. DataGirl*

        I would love to start a whole new career :) But I have kids’ colleges to pay for before I could justify going back to school myself, and by the time they are done in 8-10 years I really will be to old.

        1. Miss Pantalones en Fuego*

          You don’t necessarily need to go to school to start working on a career change!

          Granted my parents were and are still married, so Mom had a certain amount of financial stability at your age. She already had a BA in psychology, although she was a stay-at-home mom after she finished college and never really had a proper job, just part time retail here and there. Once my little sister was in school she started very gradually gaining experience by volunteering at the school, then the teachers she met suggested that she apply for a paraprofessional job, and she went from there. She started as a retail worker and ended up as the head of the special education department in a high school, where she stayed until she retired in her mid-60s. She definitely made a heck of a lot more money than she would have if she’d stayed in her retail job, even though she was in management by the time she jumped to education. And she didn’t go back for any formal education until she got an MA in her 50s (at the same time as my little sister was doing her BA, at the local university campus).

          Obviously your situation is a little different but I’ll bet there are ways you could branch out from your current job into something that is more satisfying and more lucrative besides going back to formal education.

  54. HigherEd Person*

    Who works in HR Training and Development? I am starting to explore possible fields outside of Higher Ed, and this is an area that’s always interested me. Obviously, I know experiences vary based on organization and position, but I would just like to hear from people in T&D.
    I have an MA in Higher Ed administration, am considering either an MBA at some point or some type of HR/Org Behavior certificate (while still working at a university that gives tuition remission). Not sure if I need it, though.

    1. LaDeeDa*

      If you have a MA in education, you’ll be fine. Organizational Development or Psychology is a sought after degree, but that is very different from learning development or training and development. OD is more about people strategy and working to align the business goals with the talent goals- and often there is no teaching involved in that role, it is almost the go-between from leaders to HR/ L&D/T&D/Recruiting. If you do want to have a teaching kind of role, I would recommend taking classes/ certifications on instructional design, curriculum development, leadership development, and training evaluations methods. I need my staff to be able to design and create a curriculum and/or program from start to finish. This includes all the user guides, PPTs, trainer guides, e-learning, evaluations, competency alignment, and to facilitate it.

      One of the things that I have noticed when people have transitioned from teaching college/ or kids is that it is a bit shocking to them in how different the teaching role is in a corporate setting. I have seen some former teachers struggle going from being that big expert authority figure standing in front of a room to being a colleague. What I usually suggest for those people is to take a 2 day Train the Trainer course from ATD (Association of Talent Development) it seems to help people transition.

      I hope this helped a little bit! Let me know if you have any other questions I am in talent and leadership development and I have done some sort of corporate training/development for almost 20 years now. I love it! :)

      1. HigherEd Person*

        wow, THANK YOU!
        So while I’m not a teacher/faculty member, I work in an area where I provide leadership and skill training to students and student organizations. However, I am not 100% confident in my abilities to take what I know how to do for 18-21 year olds to “adults” in a corporate setting, KWIM?

        I am going to look into those classes you mentioned. Where do those things usually live? Like in an MBA program or HR certificate? I’ll also look into ATD – never heard of it!

        1. LaDeeDa*

          It is my pleasure, I LOVE what I do for a living, and like to help people get into if they are interested. I wouldn’t bother getting another degree, and I am not a fan of HR degrees- they tend to be like communication degrees, you learn a bit about everything, but are not an expert in one area. ATD is a great resource, td dot org. I would start with Train the Trainer and then move on to CPLP- Certified Professional in Learning and Performance. I require all my staff to either have it for hiring or commit to getting it in their first year. I also won’t hire a trainer that can’t design or write curriculum, and I need them to know how to use e-learning software. Every company uses different software, but the most common is probably Articulate. You can download a free version and watch YouTube how-to videos, before taking a class in it. Literally take an existing PPT deck and work through how to make it an e-learning before taking a class. The classes should teach you to create interactive e-learning, but anyone with a tiny bit of tech savviness can teach themselves Articulate. It is really user-friendly! When I first got into this there was no such thing as e-learning, but I saw it coming and began teaching myself how to use all the software long before I took a class.
          Also through ATD you can go to lunch and learns for a small fee, the yearly membership is about $300, and maybe your current job will pay for it! Even without a membership, the learning and networking opportunities are huge. I teach a lunch and learn for my state/local chapter at least once a month. I can cover anything from evaluation method best practices, to Succession Planning, to high-potential programs, to new grad programs. I also attend at least one learning event a month to see what everyone else is doing!
          I hope you will keep me/the community posted on what you decide :) Again, feel free to ask me anything!

          1. HigherEd Person*

            thank you!!! This, along with Periwinkle’s post below, is the most practical advice I’ve received regarding this. THANK YOU!!!!!
            I’m going to look into these trainings and memberships. The lunch and learns sound awesome, too.

            I’m actually C&Ping this and putting it in a word doc so that I can reference it. I also linked a new anon email in my username here, if you’re comfortable communicating that way. If not, I totally understand.

            1. LaDeeDa*

              I hope you see this, I don’t know how to see your email address, but if someone can tell me how I would be happy to email with you!

    2. periwinkle*

      T&D person here… It’s a broad field and pulls from a lot of different knowledge areas. Is there any particular aspect to T&D that catches your attention? Just as an example, this is the scope of my (Fortune 50) employer’s T&D function: workforce development, including all kinds of training; organizational development; change management; strategic and tactical consulting on functional/skills development (from team level up to company-wide); performance improvement analysis; coaching; and leadership development from first-time managers to executive level. We do other things too but it’s Friday and I’m zoning out on the rest. In an org this large you specialize and focus on one area, but in a smaller company you might have a handful of people doing all of the above.

      Although T&D usually falls under HR (as it does in our org), I’d recommend looking at a grad certificate more in line with the area on which you’d like to focus. Do you want to develop corporate training? Adult learners require a different approach than secondary students. Do a little Googling on “andragogy” and the work of Malcolm Knowles for some foundational information. That goes for leadership development as well, although TBH it’s tempting to recommend a background in elementary education if you’re going to work with executives…

      An MBA would be a bit much at this point *but* understanding the finance side is important. If you can’t prove you’re creating value, you’re treated as an expense (and thus are an easy budget to cut).

      I’ll second the recommendation to check out ATD. It’s a huge organization; I attended their 2018 conference in San Diego along with 11,000 of my closest friends.

      1. HigherEd Person*

        thank you!!! I had no idea it was so varied. I think I’m most interested in leadership development, and most of my experience would be best suited to first-time managers. I’m also got good experience in skills/training workshop development and implementation (10+ years of facilitating workshops and trainings for students and colleagues. I can process StregthsQuest like a rockstar).

  55. ArtK*

    I’m leaving my job in July, but won’t give notice for another three weeks because I’m worried about retaliation — being walked out early. Yesterday my boss called me and told me he wants me to work on some significant projects right away. How do I handle this, knowing that I’ll be leaving about the time the projects really get underway?

    Bonus: There’s a hiring freeze on until September. That makes me happier about leaving because that’s not a good sign in this business right now.

    1. The Man, Becky Lynch*

      You can’t trust them not to retaliate, therefore you owe them nothing right now. Just smile, accept the projects and then dump them back on his lap on your way out.

      You have to work on holding back that desire to be a good person and conscientious employee. They burned your goodwill when they made you fear retaliation for giving notice. It’s hard because it goes against your nature, I’m the same way but just bulldoze through it and then dance yourself right to your next job come July!

    2. Aspiring Chicken Lady*

      Work on the big projects, take good notes, and leave them at whatever stage of completion they’re at when you leave.

      Especially if you don’t have a set in stone contract that would guarantee you’re OK if something goes south with your next plan. (Whether it’s taking a new job, or going back to school, or sailing a few of the seven seas.) Why burn bridges until you’re sure you won’t need them?

  56. L.S. Cooper*

    I’m kind of bummed that my current company has zero chances of having a job I could transition into that’s actually in my field. I really like the culture and the perks here, but the work…. I’m going brain dead, I think. I need to break into web dev as soon as I can, because my neurons can’t take it!

  57. Darrow*

    This is somewhat related to work? Apologies if this would be more appropriate for the non-work open thread…

    It seems like office fridge issues are a widespread concern, and a popular topic for letters and commenters. Many people experience extreme frustration at not being able properly refrigerate their lunch, and many solutions involve ways to keep a lunch cool that does not require a fridge.

    Am I the only person that does not care at all about refrigerating my lunch? Unless I bring something that has to remain frozen until I eat it (frozen entrée, ice cream, etc.) I never bother putting my lunch in the fridge. I also don’t have an insulated bag to keep it in. It just sits in the open on my desk from 7 am until I want to eat it. The types of items I bring can vary widely (leftovers, sandwich, salad, soup, anything that happens to be in my fridge at home). I have never experienced any food poisoning or other issues from this.

    I literally never have to experience irritation or anxiety about my workplace fridge situation. I honestly had no idea that fridge concerns were so prevalent until I started reading this site. Are my lunchtime storage habits so completely out of the norm?

    1. Rusty Shackelford*

      Yeah, probably. Even if I’m not worried about spoilage, I want my sandwich or salad to be cold.

    2. L.S. Cooper*

      My office has quite a few full-size fridges, so there’s not a huge problem with space, but I do generally put stuff in the fridge. The rule of thumb for food service is that food has about 4 hours to be out– not being kept cold and not being kept hot– before it goes icky, and I can’t reliably guarantee that I’ll eat my lunch before the time runs out. Obviously, that’s a conservative estimate, but…. I tend to not want to risk it.

    3. Environmental Compliance*

      Yeah….I like cold things to be cold, and hot to be hot, and with a past job working in food inspections, I cringe at leaving food out.

      However, I have a lunch bag that has built in freeze paks – you literally just freeze the whole bag – and that thing will last a whole day being cold in a generic office environment, so I don’t put anything in a fridge that often. I just put the whole bag into a desk drawer.

    4. Mockingjay*

      I am of the generation that grew up with tuna fish sandwiches in a metal lunchbox in an un-airconditioned school. I survived, largely because my mother kept her kitchen more sanitary than an operating room. (Clorox! Lysol in the brown bottle!)

      Office fridges – I’ve observed that food and beverages betray their origins, whether home or fast food. Earlier this week I threw out a coworker’s salad from Wendy’s. It sat in the fridge unopened for two weeks, until it molded into a new life form.

      1. buttrue???*

        Warm bologna for me in my school days. It just isn’t the same when it’s cold. Husband always ate his lunch from home at room temperature. What ever we had had for dinner the night before.

        1. Elizabeth West*

          I like it cold. Of course, it’s horribly bad for me so I shouldn’t be eating it, but every once in a while, I NEED a bologna sandwich in my lunch. I think it’s a comfort thing.

      2. Even Steven*

        Exactly! When I was a kid I ate lots of warm lunchbox lunches and never had any issues. Now at work I keep my insulated lunch bag at my desk, and walk it to the kitchen at lunch to heat up soup or whatever. When I make a lunch that might have a riskier ingredient like sour cream or shrimp, I just throw a couple of lightweight ice packs in the bag. I have never once stored anything in the work fridge. I don’t quite understand the issues that came up in that letter this week. An insulated bag with ice packs would keep the writer’s soda chilly all day.

    5. I'm A Little Teapot*

      I know people who do as you do, but I also know that I would prefer to avoid food poisoning. Personally, I have an insulated lunch box and use ice packs as needed. The bag sits in my desk drawer.

    6. KayEss*

      I don’t refrigerate my lunch, but the only chill-worthy parts of my lunch are a bagel with cream cheese and a can of coke. Both come out of the fridge at home straight into my non-insulated shoulder bag (at around 8:15-8:30, this would work less well if I had a long commute but I’d just get an insulated bag, then) and keep each other reasonably cool until lunchtime. I’d probably feel differently if I was bringing something more resembling a real meal, but not having to fret or fight over fridge space is glorious.

    7. LaDeeDa*

      I have never put my food in the work fridge. I have a really nice insulated lunch bag and a couple of ice packs. My lunch stays cold, and my afternoon protein shakes stays cold until 2:30.

    8. Mobuy*

      You are not the only person who doesn’t care! I have plenty of room in a clean fridge in a clean staff room, and 90% of the time I don’t bother. No food poisoning either!

    9. Overeducated*

      I’m like you unless my lunch involves meat (which it usually doesn’t) or milk (but I’ve only been pathetic enough to bring cereal once). I think leaving meat out at room temperature for 5 hours is iffy.

    10. Bagpuss*

      I don’t normally both putting mine in the fridge. Not least because refrigerated sandwiches aren’t very nice, in my view – too cold to taste of anything. If I have something like a yogurt, I’ll put that in the fridge, and in very warm weather I might put my sandwiches in as well, but mostly it isn’t necessary and tastes better if I don’t.

      If I bring leftovers that I plan to reheat I may put those in the fridge, but I wouldn’t lose any sleep over it if I forgot or there wasn’t space.

    11. Glomarization, Esq.*

      You’re not alone at all! I don’t worry about spoilage between making my lunch at 7:30 a.m. and eating it at noon or 1:00 p.m. I start in a clean kitchen, put my sandwich in clean tupperware, put my veggies/fruit in another clean tupperware, and pack the tupperwares with a fork and a napkin in an insulated bag. I stash it at my desk rather than bothering with the fridge. There is zero chance of any kind of theft or misunderstanding (even on my part) with co-workers.

      First order of business when I get home is to empty the bag, which I wipe out with my dishrag as part of my after-dinner washing up. Then I hang it up on a hook or cabinet door handle to thoroughly dry by the morning. Keeping everything clean in the first place is really key, I think.

    12. Ron McDon*

      I used to eat sandwiches or homemade veggie sushi for lunch. I wouldn’t fridge the sandwich (don’t like cold bread) but would fridge the sushi.

      Now I bring a banana, a bowl of yoghurt with fruit chopped in, and a tub of chopped veggies, none of which go in the fridge, which I graze on throughout the morning (I am a night owl by nature and cannot bear eating breakfast!).

      For lunch I have a few rice cakes or similar, which I top with cottage cheese – that does live in the fridge.

      I tend to think if your lunch contains meat or fish you should fridge it. Otherwise there’s no need, food poisoning-wise. As I’m vegetarian I’ll only fridge things which are nicer chilled – sushi, or salad.

      However, I live in the UK where the temperature is not often very high; if I lived in a hotter climate I would probably be more cautious about food spoiling.

    13. Not A Manager*

      You are not alone. In my personal opinion, the rise in awareness of food poisoning is more related to industrial food production in our country and less to improperly stored home-cooked meals. (Which is not to say that home cooks never experience food spoilage issues – of course they sometimes do.) I love to eat leftovers and will happily keep them out of the fridge for most of the day. I’ve never gotten food poisoning from doing that, although I have after a few restaurant meals.

      In general, I like most of my non-hot food to be cool or room temp. Usually I don’t like it icy-cold.

    14. Lulubell*

      No, I am the same as you. In fact, I don’t like my food too cold. I prefer it at room temperature!

    15. Miss Pantalones en Fuego*

      I think it depends on your lunch, your sensitivity to digestive upset, and how much you prefer to eat cold things. I generally work on construction sites with no fridge available but the climate is usually not too hot and we even leave milk out for days with no problems. I tend to use a slightly insulated bag and put my lunch in the fridge overnight but it stays in my bag until lunch, no ice packs. I even eat yogurt and mayo this way and have suffered no ill effects. But I’ve also grown accustomed to room temperature drinks.

  58. StellaBella*

    Y’all I need guidance.
    Today had three month review at new job. There was crying.

    It is clear I am not a fit. They asked me to come up with plan for job transition out. Going part time until end of year in support role and for events is one option. Right now I wear five hats and cannot do the comms they want me to do.

    So… Help me crowdsource please a job focused on a tech education start up role for events and outreach and community building.

    How can I do this and create trust that I have skills they need? I suck at social media which was my job but excel at events planning and execution and they do few events now but that may change soon.

    Looks like I have the time to craft something by 23 June.

    Aside from looking at the drafted existing job description which I have now, do you have any pointers on transitioning and adding value? All tips are helpful thanks!

    1. Errol*

      I know this isn’t exactly what you are looking for but Youtube has a ton of free videos on social media how to’s for business as well as there are a ton of ‘social’ schools offering social media courses that aren’t too expensive depending on the area you are in

    2. The Man, Becky Lynch*

      I sadly don’t have advice for you in terms of transitioning but I wanted to send you good thoughts. You will make it through this bump in the road.

      I’m glad they’re doing the right thing and transitioning you out but it’s still hard.

      At least you have that icky “weakness” to speak of at the moment and if you do some professional development so that you can get better at that over time, you’ve got the way of saying “but I’m working to fix that issue.”

    3. Gumby*

      Are you crafting a job description to be used to stay at your current employer just in a different role? Or are you looking for another job completely? Because event planning and execution is a job in its own right w/o the social media aspect. If you are crafting a description to stay w/ your org – maybe borrow from pure event planning job postings.

  59. Low Morale*

    Can the culture of a team of organization ever change? Does it require 100% turnover? New leadership? A super-transparent tackling of it head on?

    My division is in a funk, and has been for a long time. We had a terrible VP who left a couple of years ago, and we all thought things would improve with new leadership. It got better, for a while, but as our new leader (who is great in many ways) settles in, it’s clear that he either doesn’t know that morale is terrible, doesn’t care, or doesn’t know how to fix it.

    There are some real challenges that are contributing to the funk, and some of it — maybe most of the funk! — comes from the discomfort of correcting old problems (created by our terrible former VP).

    But some of it is about our leadership, and how we work together, and how people feel about being at work. Several colleagues are working remotely more and more because it’s sort of miserable to be in the office these days. A 20-year veteran, the kind of person who is described as “the glue that holds everything together,” who thought she would retire here, is job searching. The director of one of our most high-profile programs is planning “coaching himself out” by the end of the year.

    So — what can fix it?

    1. Olive Sawdust by Valspar*

      We’re going through the same thing at our nonprofit. Go the ‘super-transparent tackling it head’ on route. They will never clue in, hints will never work, and even departures will not trigger their awareness.

      Sav yourself by saving them with awareness.

      Personally, I’m at the point in my career where I’m tired of jacked up workplaces and tiptoeing around and people lackingawareness. I lean to the ‘your actions are creating chaos and you either need to figure it out or people are going to leave.’

    2. Judgment day*

      In my experience, the only thing that can fix teams is partial turnover–getting rid of the toxic people and replacing them with pleasant and competent workers. Once the problem people are gone, it’s amazing how everyone else’s relationships improve too.

    3. Pay no attention to the man behind the curtain*

      I don’t think any manager or initiative can fix people’s feelings if they don’t want to change their attitude. Morale change has to come from the employees by about 70%. It sounds like your leadership has improved the areas it can improve — got rid of bad boss, addressing and fixing past mistakes, allowing employees flexibility to work remotely during a transition or just in general…if that isn’t enough, I’m not sure what will do it. Bosses can’t and shouldn’t mandate that people seek mental health support — which it sounds like is what is really needed. In this case it may need to be turnover to people who don’t harbor hard feelings about their employer and coworkers that they can’t let go of.

    4. periwinkle*

      Are you me? Because my team is in the same situation – awful VP out, talented and action-oriented VP in, and yet things are falling apart. Part of it is from the challenge of re-positioning our team to be what it should have been but wasn’t, part of it is from the pain of the re-position (lots of confusion about roles and responsibilities, even after over a year of being in these roles), and the rest from unrealistic expectations from leadership. Our team is bleeding managers at an alarming rate. Some are fleeing for other companies, others are retiring now even though they had planned to stick around a few more years.

      Unfortunately, I don’t know how this can be fixed. Certainly nothing a peon like me can do other than carry on. I love my work and my immediate team is fantastic, but looking beyond our borders is scary these days.

      Organizational culture comes from the top, as does a change to that culture. They set expectations and reward behaviors, and unfortunately it seems like our leadership is continuing to reward the behaviors contradictory to the “official” culture we’re all supposed to embrace. I read an article recently reflecting on the failure rate of cultural change efforts. The author thought the main problem was that leaders often believe they *already* embody that ideal culture and therefore do not feel the need to change or reflect on their own behavior. Since they kept on acting as they always had, the people below had no reason to change. Yup, that’s happening here.

      Sorry to be such a pessimist, but that’s how I see it here. Until leaders realize they need to change their own behaviors, the toxicity will continue to drip down onto the people below. So until your VP understands the extent of the problem AND cares enough to make changes, things won’t get better. If you’re in a position where you can shine some light on what’s going on, either directly to the VP or to someone who has his ear, maybe you can make a difference?

  60. Tigger*

    What team building activities do you guys like? We are currently merging with a rival company and I thought it would be fun to do a “team building” but I know people hate that. We are a bunch of sales and service people and a thought an OPTIONAL dinner or a happy hour would be fun. Thoughts?

    1. HigherEd Person*

      I think those can be a good start, but then it only includes the people who attend. Do you have someone navigating/managing the merge? Someone bringing the two cultures together and helping manage the process? People will build team when they have a shared mission and goals, so some of it will take time. But putting optional social activities on the calendar is a good start. I would also include something that could be family friendly, as well, maybe a summer picnic? Again, optional.

      1. Tigger*

        Yes, the actual placement and team building are being done by the C suite level. I just thought once everything is settled having a no work social activity might do the team (whatever that looks like ) good. At my previous job we had a fun committee that planned events on work days like volunteer outreach, yard game Olympics, or a march madness beer pong tourney and it made coworkers much more friendly with each other. I would like to bring some of those elements to this new culture.

    2. Absurda*

      Teams in the company I work for have done quite a bit of team building. For M&A they usually do happy hours, this seems popular with the sales people since they tend to be more outgoing and enjoy the social aspect of it. It’s not clear if everyone involved is located in the same place, but here, with established teams they do stuff like pot lucks, cubicle decorating competitions (for specific events or holidays), random food catering like donuts on some random morning or ice cream social afternoons. We once had a bingo game where everyone submitted one random/little known fact about themselves, bingo cards were printed up and people had to ask around to see who the fact belonged to. That was kind of fun.

      Really, anything that encourages people to talk and get to know each other without too many gimmicks works in my opinion.

      2. periwinkle*

        Oh, we’ve had team building activities like that bingo card. Pro tip: shy people HATE activities like that. The sales teams might enjoy it, but I’ve been on the service side and that takes a lot of the joy out of talking to people…

        Somehow I ended up getting stuck on an organizing committee for team building for an all-team event and steered them towards some small group activities where people worked as a team to do something. Search Google for “marshmallow challenge” (watch the TED talk about it, too) – I brought that one in and it was a big hit.

    3. CatCat*

      How about a catered lunch or breakfast at work? That way people who have commitments after work would be included.

    4. Policy Wonk*

      Whatever you do, do it during work hours. If people have to give up an evening or a weekend day in the name of team building it won’t work, except that they may unite in complaining about it.

      The bingo game suggested elsewhere has been successful for me in the past, and one thing that our crew really enjoyed was a chili cook-off. The conference room was lined with crock pots, the office provided the bowls, silverware, corn bread and drinks. Varieties ranged from fire alarm to vegan with everything in between. I was surprised by how that event succeeded when many of the more common ones, like an outing for a baseball game didn’t.

    5. Glomarization, Esq.*

      Since you mention dinner and happy hour, I’d mention that 2 things were always flags for me when I had a job that involved organizing get-togethers: Venue accessibility for people with mobility impairments, and inclusivity for people who abstain from alcohol for one reason or another (recovery, religious reasons, health, etc.).

      For accessibility issues, sometimes you have to actually visit the venue in person to check. Way too many people think “oh, it’s just one step” or “bathrooms are upstairs” is still 100% accessible. To try not to exclude non-drinkers, consider having the event at a venue that’s more of a restaurant than just a bar, and maybe make clear that vouchers/tickets for drinks are also good for soft drinks.

  61. No Tribble At All*

    I’m to lament the fall of a former workplace. This is a small team that needs 4-5 people to function; it can’t continue sustainable with fewer than that, because it’s a shift job. When I joined it a few years ago, we had a great boss, lots of responsibility, opportunities for growth, and a clear career path forward. Two years after I joined, the Powers That Be put us under a different manager, changed our responsibilities, and since then, everything’s fell apart.

    Only one person has stayed on the team since then. There were 4 of us when we started. Two of us (myself Alice, and B0b) changed teams to avoid the manager. One got fired for cause (Charlie). Dave has stayed. They hired Ethan, Fred, Ginny, and Harry to bring the team back up to 5. Ethan lasted a year, then quit (6 months ago). They haven’t been able to replace him. Fred just gave his notice (so he lasted 1.5 yrs). So now the team only has 3 people: Dave, Ginny, and Harry. I know Ginny and Harry are looking for new roles, and honestly, I can’t blame them. The manager is super toxic and terrible and yet just got promoted, even though he’s driven off A, B, E, F, and soon G and H, and a tangentially related person, Ichabod.

    New manager can’t even fill the roles. They made offers to 2 new grads fresh out of college and they both turned it down. If they can’t get enough staff, they’ll have to close down completely and move operations to another state. It’s such a tragedy that this job was once a challenging technical position and now is a dead end with no responsibility. I don’t understand why they’ve kept this manager that’s driven off 5, soon 7, people in two years. That’s almost 100% turnover. The only reason why turnover is lower in Manager’s group in another location is because the job market there is terrible. Manager is abrasive, inconsistent, manipulative, won’t take responsibility, tells inappropriate jokes, and only looks out for himself. He doesn’t even have the technical background to make up for his complete lack of managerial skills. Every idea he has is a bad idea. By every measurable method, the team performs worse since he took over.

    At this point, we think he must have blackmail material on a higher-up or is dating a higher-up because there’s no justification for keeping him around. He’s made 5 out of 8 of people who’ve worked for him at this site quit, and soon (within a month) it will be 7 out of 8. We’ve made official complaints. He got promoted to manage more people. I don’t know if there’s any advice other than straightup murder. RIP my first job. You were too good to be true.

  62. Mimi Me*

    Had to file a complaint with my medical insurance against a therapist today for her billing practices. She tried to bill for me for services prior to submitting claims, even though my HSA has funds. She didn’t realize I worked for an insurance company though and am ridiculously familiar with the way the process works. There’s a certain joy in life when the skills I use at work can help me in outside of the office. :)

  63. matcha123*

    If a colleague has already decided I don’t know what I’m talking about, or they don’t want my input, is it worth it to even try to demonstrate knowledge or expertise in my field?
    I struggle to come up with dialogue that demonstrates that I’ve successfully tackled similar projects or problems. I have also never been good at thinking out loud while coming up with answers.
    In last week’s open thread, a poster said they wanted a subordinate? to take more ownership, not just agree, and not to say they were thinking of the same thing. I almost felt like they were writing about me.
    The impression I get from this colleague is that not matter what I do or say, they will find a way to pick it apart. I’m not in a good position to change jobs at the moment, and would prefer to change jobs after I have an emergency savings buffer.

    1. HamlindigoBlue*

      I have one of these colleagues. It’s frustrating, and I’ve realized the issue is not mine. This colleague treats everyone the same way, and she’s got a reputation for being difficult. I would just focus on your work and proving yourself that way. Does this colleague supervise you? If not, I wouldn’t worry about it. They could be feeling insecure, and that’s not yours to fix.

      1. matcha123*

        Not a supervisor, but does seem to have a lot of input regarding our team. Since she’s been there the longest, she is well respected. I assume. She does check over my work, and often seems to make assumptions about my abilities.

    2. Analytical Tree Hugger*

      My FormerManager/CurrentCoworker was like this; it almost drove me out of the organization. What sortof worked for me was:

      1) Let go of trying to convince this person that you’re competent (at least, with FormerManager/CurrentCoworker, they still think they know more about how to do my job effectively than I do…they demonstratably don’t).
      2) Do continue to kick-ass and demonstrate how great you are at your job, so your manager and other coworkers can see that. They’re the ones who matter.

      I imagine a tiny dot (what I can control, i.e. my own actions), a quarter-sized circle around that (my sphere of influence; your coworkers’ attitude is partly here), and then the rest of the univerese (everything outside of your influence; your coworkers’ attitude is mostly here).

  64. Syfygeek*

    I am, thanks to the great advice from this site, coming up on my one year anniversary at Most Awesome Employer. My job is to support 1 Big Cheese, the 2 smaller cheeses that report to him, make sure the department has what they need and keep things running smoothly.

    I will have a review in August or September- one that’s set by the corporation, not based on anniversary. When I’ve asked for feedback from Big Cheese, all he’s said is everything is good, he hasn’t heard any complaints from the smaller cheeses. I started a folder with my goals for this position, and I’ve been taking advantage of free training offered by the IT department on various software. Any suggestions on what else to do?

    1. Mockingjay*

      List of work accomplishments, to remind Big Cheese of what you’ve done during the past year, especially earlier months. We all tend to concentrate on what’s happening now.

      If metrics are part of your work, gather your numbers. “Processed X without error,” “met schedule,” “saved big bucks.”

      Don’t forget the routine items, such as developing a checklist or reorganizing the files for efficiency and consistency.

      Follow-up with what you want to do next. Stay in the role because you are happy, take training in system X, or ask what you need to accomplish in order to move up.

  65. "You Look Very Nice Today"*

    How do you shut down comments about appearances completely? Or is it a little overly sensitive to feel this way?

    Example: I am a mid-twenties female. I had an older male coworker (who I’ve had talks with about professional boundaries in the past) comment that I “look very nice today.” Coming from ANYONE else, I feel like that comment is innocuous enough to let go. But coming from him, and coming with his demeanor when he delivered it (he full on stopped walking, tilted his head, and said it like it was a gift to me) I feel like I’m within my bounds to say “don’t comment on my looks, please. Ever.” But I also worry that is way too harsh of a reaction.

    1. MuseumChick*

      Would something like, “Fergus, I know you mean well and intend to give me a compliment but I really don’t like when you say “Look very nice today.” I’m going to ask that you stop.” If he pushed back “That’s not the point. I’m asking you do stop saying that.” Keeping your tone neutral/slightly upbeat. Then, if it continues, “Fergus, remember, we discussed this. Please stop saying that.”

      1. Anonymous Educator*

        That’s a lot of work to do to make someone stop saying some inappropriate, but I’m afraid that’s probably what it will take.

        1. Annnnnnnnon*

          It’s not “a lot of work” to talk to someone and make a succinct, clear, direct, and polite request. Nothing will change unless something gets said.

          1. Anonymous Educator*

            It’s a lot of work to make a distinct, clear, direct, and polite request, and then say “That’s not the point. I’m asking you to stop saying that.” And then to again have to say “Fergus, remember, we discussed this. Please stop saying that.”

            1. MuseumChick*

              It’s likely the first time will not stop this behavior. I was giving the OP scripts for how to processed when he pushes back on this and does not stop right away.

              1. Anonymous Educator*

                I fully agree, which is why I was saying it’s a lot of work. Necessary work (unfortunately) but still a lot.

    2. CatCat*

      You’re within your rights. Sounds like there is a pattern with this guy. I’d drop the please. It’s not a request.

    3. Middle School Teacher*

      Personally if it weirds me out I like to make it a bit awkward. “You mean I don’t look nice everyday??” Usually there’s a bit of weird sputtering, depending on the person.

      1. Fortitude Jones*

        I always respond that way to this statement, or I say, “I know,” and walk off. Both responses get chuckles though, so I don’t know if being flippant here is the answer if she truly wants to shut down this guy’s behavior.

    5. Jasnah*

      You can ask him to stop. He’s being weird. It’s weird to make people feel like you’re checking them out at work. Especially if this is someone you know has boundary issues. The only line I would draw is if this is the first/only time he said it, I’d settle for just an awkward “…Thanks.” But if it’s repeated then it’s worth talking generally about. “I appreciate the sentiment but I don’t need you to flatter me, Fergus!” or even add “So please don’t comment on my looks, thanks!” I don’t think that would come across harshly at all.

  66. The Man, Becky Lynch*

    We had a good conversation a couple of weeks ago about exercising/preserving health when in a sit-down job and I wanted to update y’all about my situation specifically! My body has been deteriorating the last year+ with a strictly sit-down job after years of going back and forth. I’ve taken a lot of the advice, including getting a standing desk!!!!!

    It’s one of the dohickies that lets you convert to standing or sitting. I’m absolutely in love. I aim to stand at least 50% of the day until I’m closer to 75%, trying to take it easy to let my body ease into it.

    I want to encourage anyone who is thinking about asking for the equipment or taking up your company’s offer for these kind of things to take the plunge. It’s amazing and super easy to use. My back already feels better.

    1. The Man, Becky Lynch*

      One potential hazard of having a standing desk…

      The possibility that I’ll be caught dancing in my office has increased by about 300x.

      I accept this as my cross to carry though.

    2. Nessun*

      That’s great! I have a standing desk at work, and I am constantly forgetting to use it. If you have any suggestions on starting to use it, developing a habit of it, I’d love to hear them. Right now I go in, turn on my computer, and start work…and then forget I can change configurations until I leave for the day.

      1. The Man, Becky Lynch*

        An egg timer perhaps? Or if you have an alarm on your watch you can set to buzz and say “Hey, stand up!”

        This works for reminding you to stretch or walk around too, since it’s absolutely the norm to come in, go into “work mode” and then you look up and say “Holy shi* I should eat lunch probably.” and that’s only because you’re stomach is screaming at you as your internal alarm clock.

        You could also set reminders in Outlook if you prefer a quiet way to be pinged.

        The research I’ve done says we should be doing a 3:1 ratio between standing/sitting. So the more you stand the better. Women burn an extra 25 calories an hour by standing, men burn an extra 50 [grrrrr men grrrr, reminds me of the commercial about how easy the woman’s partner had taking off weight “he stopped drinking soda and lost 30lbs! I stopped drinking soda and lost 3lbs. lol but metabolisms are rude].

        My body feels so much better standing, I could feel it in my glutes last night and it reminded me that I think I stood plenty.

        It also helps with combating what seems like carpel tunnel setting in for me. It’s so much easier to keep my keyboarding posture when I’m standing, I never thought about that until recently. I have been resting on my arm rests and will make my wrist go numb after awhile, ick!

    3. Glomarization, Esq.*

      My standing desk arrangement is all fun and games until I have a videoconference and I can’t stop fidgeting and swaying back and forth!

      1. The Man, Becky Lynch*

        My last position came with a standing desk originally, I loathed it. I don’t like being locked into standing! I really appreciate the ability to move between whichever feels better at any time. I would be driven up the wall if I had to reconcile accounts while standing. Especially since I have to scan items in as I do so and my scanner is….all the way down there.

    4. Lilysparrow*

      I think the convertible aspect is important. I went from a sitting desk to standing, and my circulation problems got worse because I was standing still too long in one place.

      Now I can do either/or, and things are much better.

  67. Sad Coworker*

    I posted a few weeks ago about a new colleague emotionally dumping on me after her divorce. Thanks to everyone’s advice, I have tried (and largely succeeded) at setting better boundaries that she is mostly abiding by.

    But…I’m still so annoyed by her! I think she would have been not my cup of tea anyway, but six weeks of dealing with her meltdowns has really heightened it. Everything she does irritates me — some for good reason, some just because I’m already frustrated with her. It’s definitely getting into BEC territory, and I know it’s not fair! It hasn’t filtered into work yet (I try really hard to keep my feelings under wraps.) But does anyone have good advice for working with irritating/annoying people? Or starting fresh when someone has, in the past, frustrated you to no end?

    1. XtinaLyn*

      I have a coworker who has been using me as her emotional dumping ground the last few weeks, but it got REALLY heavy starting last week. She had to go in for a minor procedure, and when she was at the doctor, she started texting me about how they were going to put her completely under (instead of twilight sleep) and how she felt so scared and nervous. I told her to relax, that everything was going to be fine and she was in good hands. I asked her if her husband was there to support her, and she said that he was, but she didn’t want to worry him. (???) Okay. She was out M-W of this week, and when she came back yesterday, she was pretty inaccessible and ended up leaving early. I texted her to check in yesterday afternoon, and she told me that she had a two-day dental procedure (filling and crown, I think) on Monday and Tuesday, and she felt awful and couldn’t stay at work because she’s in pain and such a loser. I was blown away again, and asked if her husband was with her to support her. She said, SHE DIDN’T EVEN TELL HIM ABOUT THE DENTAL STUFF BECAUSE SHE DIDN’T WANT HIM TO WORRY ABOUT HER. At that point, I said she needed to talk with her husband about what was going on in her world, and told her to get some rest.

      Bottom line is, a colleague is a colleague, and it’s really easy for that line to be crossed from “let me offer you some light support” to feeling like you’re an emotional dumping ground. I think you have to draw a boundary and say, “If there’s something I can do to support you professionally, please let me know. I’m afraid that’s all I can offer at this point.” That will hopefully send the right message. I’m planning on saying the exact same thing to my troubled coworker if she comes back to me for any more emotional relief.

      1. valentine*

        XtinaLyn, you can reduce overshare by not checking in with her and not giving advice or reassurance.

        Sad Coworker, make a list of important colleague-related work stuff that you’d have to address. Everything else goes in a “don’t interact” column. So, let’s say she and it annoys you. File under: don’t interact. The laugh is like a screen door creaking and slamming with each gust of wind. You can learn to filter it to background and to tune it out.

  68. Anonnie*

    Just came to vent for a minute. I started my current position about 10 months ago, and met with my boss yesterday for our 2019 yearly review. The review consisted of five questions and a performance rating between 1-5 (1- unsatisfactory, 2-satisfactory, 3-good, 4-very good, and 5-exceptional). We each had to complete the questions and the rating, then review them together. Then, HR will issue a raise based on the outcome of the review. Now, I’m not cocky by ANY means and a lot of days I struggle with impostor syndrome, but I feel extremely confident in my performance so far. I’ve produced consistently good work, taken on new initiatives, helped out in areas that aren’t my job, and have not dropped the ball or failed at a project in any way since coming on board. My boss was in agreement on all of my self-assessments and did not have any areas that he thought I could improve on, and expressed that I was an important and instrumental part of the team. But this is where I get stuck: I gave myself a self-rating of 4-very good, because I do believe that was the caliber of my work and performance so far. Instead, he gave me a 3-good, and couldn’t give me any reasons why it wasn’t higher. I’m feeling really discouraged and don’t know to get over it. I know I’m making this more emotional than it needs to be, but I’m a little stung that I was saddled with just “good” when there wasn’t any negative feedback or areas to improve upon, and my raise will be lower because of it.

    1. XtinaLyn*

      If you only started 10 months ago, and your boss gives you all 4’s across the board, there’s not a lot of room for growth and improvement. I would say achieving a “good” rating in less than a year is a great thing. Don’t be too hard on yourself.

    2. Anne (with an “e”)*

      In a lot of places it’s almost impossible to ever achieve a 5. All 3’s are good. I think you should be pleased.

    3. It's Business Time*

      Also they may be one of those companies that say you can only give out so many 3’s, 4’s, 5’s etc.

      1. The New Wanderer*

        That was my first thought because it’s how my company does things. However, even if yours doesn’t have an official policy, your manager might have the mindset that most of their employees should rate 3=good and only a handful are 4=excellent, and that ‘quota’ for 4s was already taken by more senior coworkers. Particularly if raises are dependent on the ratings, and there is a set pool of money.

        So in that situation I could see where it would be hard to give feedback about why you weren’t a four when there’s nothing really that they could think of that would have pushed you over the line. I’ve been in several reviews like that myself, and it sucks to be essentially told you’re doing great, everyone loves working with you, nothing to improve, but somehow you’re just meeting expectations.

    4. ..Kat..*

      Can you ask what makes the difference between a good employee and a very good employee. Ask what specific actions would increase your rating. If all he can give you is a vague answer (as opposed to specifics), he is not good at reviewing.

  69. JustaTech*

    Well, that thing I thought would be a total breeze to implement, yeah it didn’t work at all (but if we knew what we were doing it wouldn’t be called research! Haha sigh.), but I do already have a reasonably good idea of what to change for next time that will hopefully fix it, or at least point me in the direction of the problem.

    So, since science is hard, here’s my real question: does anyone know how to disguise a mini-fridge as a file cabinet? We’re not supposed to have “appliances” in our new office space, and my boss is super bummed about the prospect of losing his “fun” fridge (which hold the “fun” beverages for occasional Friday afternoon socializing). I’ve tried Googling around and all I can find are fancy furniture for fridges and something that looks like a stack of reams of paper.
    Thanks!

    2. Auntie Social*

      Take a file cabinet and the mini-fridge to a metal shop. Tell them the goal, that you need the drawers removed and the fronts of the drawers welded to be a door, then hinged. If the fridge door handle is on the right then you need the hinge on the right, etc. The shop may have better ideas. How you expense this, I don’t know.

    3. Admin of Sys*

      (not that I would ever support going around facilities like that, but…)
      Measure the fridge, and find a file cabinet the same size or slightly bigger
      Grab a file cabinet, and remove the drawers
      Disassemble the drawers so you have the front bits
      Cut a piece of plywood or thin mdf the size of the file cabinet front
      Use epoxy glue to to glue the file cabinet draw front pieces onto the plywood
      Use epoxy glue to glue the plywood to the fridge door.
      Anyone who looks closely or tries to open the file cabinet will likely be able to tell, but as a cursory glance, it’ll pass.
      note: if you have a cleaning crew they will 100% know it’s not a file cabinet.

      1. Gumby*

        Just make sure that your cabinet leaves enough clearance around the fridge for ventilation.

    5. Pay no attention to the man behind the curtain*

      My boss hides his contraband mini-fridge under a portion of his large desk. It’s all black so it sort of looks like a file cabinet at a glance anyway and blends in with the desk. Then he glued on metal handles that make it look like drawers. It’s not super convincing if you look closely, but it works if you’re just passing by. If your Facilities actually does inspections, this won’t work.

  70. CDM*

    AAM echoes from another web forum:

    Poster’s husband is an administrator in a school district. 12 administrators are going to a conference. 6 males were booked into individual hotel rooms, 6 females were booked to share three rooms. The (male) assistant superintendent, when called out about it, claimed that this was done at the request of one of the female attendees. That female attendee denied making any such request.

    All heck has broken loose, there are no hotel rooms available to book now, HR has been notified about the blatant discrimination by gender. The EEOC has been mentioned. Good times.

    1. The Man, Becky Lynch*

      GOOD. I’m glad that the EEOC is involved. Drag this administration through the mud and destroy them, women unite!

    2. Rusty Shackelford*

      Even if he had been telling the truth about one female attendee requesting a shared room, it’s absolute nonsense to force it on the other five.

      1. valentine*

        Yes, and why would she not just want a roommate, but ask a supervisor to quietly arrange it instead of asking a colleague to share?

        In solidarity, the men should double up and give their rooms to the women.

    5. WellRed*

      Oh, please update us on this. I’d be livid to find myself sharing at all, but let alone when there’s such blatant gender discrimination.

    7. Aphrodite*

      I’m glad all heck has broken loose so this won’t happen in the future. For this year, switch up the rooms. Have the six males share three rooms and give the females their own individual rooms. Problem solved!

      2. Lilysparrow*

        Or assign the individual rooms to the 3 most senior (or longest-tenure) men and the 3 most senior women.

        1. silverpie*

          Would actually have to be 2-4 or 4-2. Unless you really want to have a mixed-sex room. ;)

    9. CDM*

      update:
      Two more hotel rooms were found, two employees who are friends said they wanted to share a room.

      There’s still a lot of complaint about the lies told by the assistant superintendent, so it doesn’t appear that the furor will die away completely yet.

  71. Taking a Sick Day*

    Yesterday my company did their annual (optional) biometric screenings for employees. If you are on the company’s health insurance plan and pass a basic biometrics test (BMI, blood pressure, etc) you are eligible for credits on your health insurance. The company regularly sends out emails about ways to earn health care credits (“Take the stairs for 4 weeks and earn $40 of health credits!”) which reduce the amount the employee pays for their health insurance.

    This isn’t a concern for me at the moment because I’m still on my parent’s health plan, but I find this practice to be invasive and I’m wondering if other companies do this. I don’t see why seemingly arbitrary “health metrics” should lessen someone’s healthcare costs. I have an invisible illness that I have not disclosed to my managers. It doesn’t effect my work and it is none of their concern. I would pass this biometric test with flying colors, but I know that I see more specialists on a regular basis than the rest of my team combined. I can also understand how this practice could be embarrassing to other employees who might not regularly track their biometrics and discover bad news about their health from a nurse at work.

    The whole idea seems icky to me. Is this practice unusual? I’ve heard that the healthcare plan is pretty good and the company otherwise treats employees very well.

    1. CTT*

      Since it was one of the platforms under the ACA, a good number of companies embraced it as a way to lower healthcare costs and encourage “healthy practices,” but research is starting to show it hasn’t done much, and anecdotally, a there are a lot of people like you who find it icky. My workplace phased it out this year because the cost/benefit ratio wasn’t doing it for them.

    2. Arielle*

      I’ve never had to do this for any job but I think it’s not uncommon. It seems really discriminatory to people who can’t pass the test for a reason they already know about. I get preventative screening reduces future healthcare costs, but what if someone is already under a doctor’s care for their high blood pressure? I would not pass any BMI screening right now because I’m pregnant – would it account for that or would I just fail and not get the insurance credit?

    3. The Man, Becky Lynch*

      Yikes, I don’t know about the idea of a “Credit” system. Thankfully I don’t work for an employer who requires employee contribution, so it wouldn’t be useful anyways. I have had a lot of handouts and leaflet stuff start flooding me from the insurance company to “share” with employees about ways to be healthier and therefore, lower costs in general. I tend to just post them on the bulletin board that people glance at just to feel like I’m “passing along” the information some how but I’m not putting the screws to any employees or setting up weird stuff like taking vitals randomly.

      We get a yearly physical, that’s required by my doctor’s office.

      How exactly do you prove that the employee took the stairs for 4 weeks? Are there cameras? I am so confused by this setup.

      1. Tigger*

        I worked at a company like this and every month we would have fit bit competitions (every person was given a fit bit on their first day). The team that got the most steps usually got $50 off their insurance withholdings for the next month. They had to change the rules a bit when an ultramarathoner was hired

        1. The Man, Becky Lynch*

          This reminds me of the show where someone put the fitbit on their dog to rack up the steps…I pray that every single one of your coworkers who participate in this are scamming the system because it’s so bogus and boring. Let’s see who has the most active pet >:]

          Yes, I’m pure evil like that.

      2. Taking a Sick Day*

        I didn’t participate, but I’m told it’s a self-reporting system. Employees have to share screenshots of a digital health tracker (think FitBit or the pedometer on a smart phone) that shows how many flights of stairs are climbed each day. I thought that was weird, but way less weird than the screenings.

    4. medium of ballpoint*

      My workplace does this. I understand the reasoning, but it’s ineffective invasive as heck. I’ve tried to allow only the bits that aren’t too Big Brother-y (e.g., I’ll log my water intake but won’t allow my Fitbit to share sleep data) because money’s tight and I can use the break on the deductible but I definitely don’t like it.

    5. buttrue???*

      Husband worked for the state and they had a program for getting credits. It would appear it wasn’t used like they thought. Eventually they went to where you get a reduction in you premium by getting annual blood work. You can either go through your doctor or just give the results to the doctor afterwards. Initially it was employee only then employee and spouse.

    6. Red Reader the Adulting Fairy*

      My org does credits like that, but they’re not “pass/fail” — if you do the screening, you get the points, regardless of the outcome. If you do the screening before the end of April, you get bonus points. If you’re unhappy with your results, you have the option to talk to employee health about them (we’re a hospital system) to earn more points. If you attest that you haven’t smoked in six months, you get points. If you go online and track your steps for 60 days (or sync your Fitbit) you get points. If you watch a webinar about emotional or financial health or mindfulness or whatever else, you get points. If you don’t want to do the screening onsite, you can also have your regular doctor confirm that you had annual labs done – again, no questions about the results, just “yes, this patient had labs x-y-z performed within the calendar year)” – for points. (And they’re not looking for anything weird, just the standard basics that docs tend to want to do at an annual visit anyway.) Right now they’re running a “mindfulness challenge,” basically every week for four weeks you get an email with tips on how to de-stress and be mindful, and if you do a 4 question survey on each email, you get points. Basically there’s a ton of ways to get points, and they’re not all related to physical fitness, which is great.

      I think it’s 500 points for $15 off per pay period, 1000 points for $25 off, 1500 for $35 off? And I’ve already earned my 1500 points for 2019 (which will count for my 2020 credit). All my org learned about me out of it is that I walk a lot more at Disneyworld than I do at home. And as a result, my health insurance costs me $11 every two weeks. I got no beef with that.

      1. Red Reader the Adulting Fairy*

        Oh, and if you don’t actually get your insurance through the org but you still collect points, you still get the credits as extra cash in your paycheck. That just started this year.

      2. moql*

        Yes, my company has a very positive and participation-focused program like this, and I really like it. Points for a physical with your regular doctor, points for any preventative care visit, points for attending lunchtime financial wellness seminars, etc.

        My favorite is one where you can set yourself a fitness goal and get points for achieving it. One coworker who runs a ton got points for running a marathon, but another coworker with some health problems made her goal walking for a little bit every day for a month and she got the same number of points.

    7. Silver Fig*

      My company has something similar. You have to complete a certain percentage of ~12 options throughout the year, get a full physical, and do bloodwork. They give you $500 cash.

      I think it’s straight-up dumb to do this, because you’re giving them all the info they need to start discriminating and calling everything a pre-existing condition. But all people see is dollars, so they do it.

    8. Maya Elena*

      I don’t think they can condition your premium on your actual results themselves, other than smoking/non-smoking. However, they can compel you to do e.g. telephonic coaching or something. This is what my company does.

      I agree that employers doing this is icky. However, this – and other employer concern with your health, since it’s a major cost that they’re expected to foot – is a natural consequence of employers being the source of healthcare, which is a historical accident that emerged from layer upon layer of bad regulatory decisions. Though I’m not a proponent of socialized medicine, I do think that that whole construct is a bad and unworkable arrangement in the long run, for this reason and others.

      2. Good luck with that*

        By what I read in history, medical insurance through employers became a thing when employers weren’t allowed to compete on wages for scarce workers during WW2, so they started using other perks. It got written into union contracts back when unions were powerful, and they wouldn’t give it up. If the line workers got it, Management certainly wasn’t going to settle for less.
        So the majority of blue and white collar workers had employer-paid coverage, and there wasn’t much political will to change things for the next 40+ years.

    9. Elizabeth West*

      No, not unusual. Exjob did it. I always refused to be weighed because they did it in a room full of people. And yes, it is icky, especially since they’re still using BMI, which is crap.

      Both Exjob and OldExjob offered a tobacco-free healthcare credit also, which was good as it encouraged people to quit smoking (and they also offered assistance with that). In addition, you could mark it on your insurance enrollment and not have to do it in front of all your coworkers.

    10. periwinkle*

      Not too unusual. My employer has an optional screening thing, but it’s only optional in the sense that you have the option to skip the screening and pay an extra $10/month for health insurance (or $10/pay period, can’t remember which). It’s not massively invasive as these things go, but that’s just in a relative sense! We are supposed to record height/weight, BP and cholesterol readings, and health habits. Although you don’t get penalized for being overweight or not eating your veggies, you’ll probably get a call from the insurance company’s friendly health coaches and you can’t opt out of that initial call (but you can tell them to leave you alone after that). So there’s no penalty for the results of your biometric exams, just a penalty for not reporting them.

      There’s also an annual health challenge, farmed out to some company that does this sort of thing. Last year a new company got the contract and the terms & conditions of their app raised a ton of privacy alarm bells among those who read it. I ditched it, so no $10 Amazon cards for me!

      1. The New Wanderer*

        My company has the same situation – new health services supplier with really sketchy terms of service language, plus a lousy interface particularly if you don’t want to sync your fitness tracker. Lots of people are opting out this year from what I gather. The original program was nice and motivating, cash for meeting step goals. Then they got fancy and added incentivized health screening. Now they’re not even vetting their suppliers for some pretty blatant privacy issues.

    11. Slartibartfast*

      Both my job and my husband’s job have done this. One of the options if you don’t pass all the biometric guidelines is a 10 minute phone call with a health care coach. Invasive and icky but the penalty for non-compliance oops I mean “discount” for participation is too significant to not suck it up and do it. Which reminds me I need to fax the paperwork that’s been stuck to my fridge for a month….

    12. Mr. Shark*

      CurrentJob does the bloodwork thing every year, and asks you if you’re smoke free. If you do the bloodwork (you can go to a specific clinic, or have your doctor send it in to the insurance company) and certify smoke-free, you get a discount on your insurance.

      I think all of that is too invasive, personally, and also dislike when they have blood drives (or ask for charity donations)at work.

    13. Fortitude Jones*

      Is this practice unusual? I’ve heard that the healthcare plan is pretty good and the company otherwise treats employees very well.

      Not unusual. Every company I’ve ever worked for in different industries (law, insurance, transportation), have done this, but instead of getting the insurance credit, my companies would put extra money in our HSAs (usually up to $500).

  72. AnonymooseToday*

    I have an in-person interview, yay! For my job search I’ve mostly been focusing on academic libraries, but this is at a major private museum in their library. I know the major sources of library/archives current what-nots, and there’s obviously American Alliance of Museums, but are there other resources where I can find out more about current happenings, professional resources for museums? I’d like to brush up on my specialty and see how it’s used in museums and what direction it’s going, and a general idea of what’s going on in museums in general.

    Also obviously this job is similar to archives/libraries, and I’ll probably prepare the same way, but does anyone have any specific advice they think might help?

    1. MuseumChick*

      AAM is going to be the best resource but also check out the National Emerging Museum Professionals Network. is a big one, there is also the Center for the Future of Museums.

      Good luck!

  73. Public Facing Librarian*

    Recap and a question
    The last few months have been fraught with public accusations of dereliction of duty by former friends board members. I have been well-supported by my supervisors and the library director. My recent performance evaluation was outstanding and reflected the challenges that I have recently faced.

    Now the question. Because it is a very small community and my presence is required often at public gatherings and events, how do I respond to people who inquire about this very public issue-lots of twitter and facebook on the matter.

    A. Refer people to the statement posted on the library website by the administration.
    B. Note that as a librarian I hold Intellectual Freedom as a right including the right to criticize my work.
    C. ?

    Is there a preferred method of responding verbally to the critics who may want to continue to engage in a discussion of the merits their requests.

    1. MuseumChick*

      I think it depends. I might go with something modified off the official statement. That way you are not just directing them somewhere else. It’s a tricky situation.

  74. Jan Levinson*

    How much effort is worth investing over a manager who is the definition of “pot calling the kettle black”?

    I have a manager who is constantly leaving the office for various appointments (doctor, dentist, chiropractors, oil change, car repair, etc.) I don’t mean once or twice a month, but several times a week. She’s always at least 30 minutes late in the mornings, takes 2 hour lunches, and leaves about an hour or two early nearly every day. I would say she works about 30 hours a week as a salaried employee. Now, I’m not here to be a timekeeper – I could care less how many hours she works if she gave her employees the same grace.

    But, she doesn’t. That’s where the problem lies. A few weeks ago, my first niece was born. My sister had an induction scheduled on a Thursday, so I emailed my manager the previous Monday and told her that I would like to take a little bit of time away to see her, if she was born during the work day, and that I would take shortened lunches to make up the time (I’m an hourly employee). My boss said we could “play it by ear” and “see how busy it was.” That Thursday came, and my sister had her baby a little after noon. I told my boss after I got the news, and asked her if I could leave around 3:30 (my normal hours are 7:30-4:30). She told me she was working on a project, and would let me leave once she was done and “would try to finish by 3:30” so that she could cover for me after I left. Now, the nature of my job is not one that needs to be “covered for” in my absence. I’m a very independent worker, and get my stuff done in a timely and quality manner. Me leaving early has absolutely no affect on her. I truly believe her hesitation is simply wanting to have the power to tell her employees “no”. Anyway, as 3:30 approached, I asked my boss again if I would be able to leave at 3:30. She said “ooh, I’m still not finished with this project, I’d really like you to stay until 4:00.” (the whole rest of my family had already seen my newborn niece by this time). I ended up leaving at 4:00, and was extremely frustrated considering her frequent absences. I should also mention I’m a solid employee, and have received excellent reviews and several raises in my five years here.

    The whole thing just really bothers me. Again, I will say it’s not her frequent leaves that bother me – it’s that she doesn’t give me (or any other employees) that same flexibility. Is there anything I can do, or do I just have to let this go? Her boss works off site (I’ve never even met/seen the guy). For what it’s worth, this has been somewhat of an ongoing joke with the rest of the staff for years – the fact that boss is always leaving for appointments, but is inflexible allowing others to do so.

    1. Lurker*

      Ugh. I have been in this situation and it is sooooo maddening. The only thing that I can think of as a starting point for addressing this is asking about the need for coverage. Something like “I just wanted to check in about my request to leave early yesterday. You mentioned that you didn’t want me to leave until you could cover for me and I just wanted to chat with you about that because that’s not something that has been necessary in the past. Has something changed that I’m not aware of that is behind that need?”

      1. valentine*

        You have to let go of the resentment that she comes and go as she pleases. If what she wants is to say no, ask for the moon and get the cheese you want. If that’s not it, see if you can figure out what she wants so you can create a workaround. For stuff that means so much to you, just take the whole day. This woman’s not reasonable and there’s no sense in you trying to be considerate by taking an hour and making up the time when she can’t see that for what it is and doesn’t value it.

        1. PlatypusOo*

          This is excellent advice and kind of a revelation to me. I am too much of a rule follower and have trouble being creative with problem solving. It makes total sense to me to call in sick on a very important day rather than being bogged down with the stress of her whims about leaving a couple of hours early. I realize others have responded to you pointing out her being salaried and you being hourly gives you no right to be judgey or frustrated with your boss. However, with an *unkind* person such as this you’ll really need to get creative and have a light touch when dealing with her or resentments will grow.

          Jan Levinson: how wonderful to be a new auntie!

    2. Researchalator Lady*

      I’m sorry to say that I don’t think she is being very kind in denying your request, but I also don’t see that you have any right to judge her working hours or to say that she should give you, an hourly employee, “that same grace” because she herself takes “that same flexibility” as a salaried employee. You are NOT the same; she is salaried and you are hourly, and with that comes her right to come and go more or less as she pleases, while you are obliged to work from 7:30 – 4:30.

      That being said, there should be a way to get her to listen to a reasonable request for an occasional short leave during work hours, but that doesn’t mean there will be. I do think that you are making yourself more frustrated than necessary by thinking that she should let you do what she does. (You never know what responsibilities she might be performing at off-hours that you don’t see, or that other/most salaried people do, that make up for the flexibility you’re seeing during your working hours.)

  75. Not Maeby, But Surely*

    This is mostly just a vent, but comments and commiseration are welcome. Background: I am ~27 weeks pregnant and my colleagues have known for a couple of months. I am also obese. Yesterday, I was approached by one of the executive team from one of our branch offices. One of the employees at her office asked her to get a picture of me cradling my bump. I managed to get out of it by saying, “oh, not yet – I still just look fat, not pregnant.” Not a total lie. Told her maybe by next month’s executive meetings I would look pregnant rather than fat. (That was my attempt at a soft deflection. Figured I’d have a whole month to figure out what to do/say next time.) Manager took it in stride and said she would let colleague know. I told her I would tell colleague myself that I wouldn’t let her take a picture so Executive didn’t get “in trouble.” It was all a very light-hearted exchange. Colleague took it well when I emailed her, but also said she’s sure I look so cute and she still wants to see a bump pic. I’ve worked with these people for 10+ years and have a good rapport, but I also feel kind of squicked out by it, because 1) I’m not a bump pic person AT ALL. Fine for some people, just not for me. As yet, I have made exactly zero posts about my pregnancy on social media, etc., in part so people don’t start asking for things like a bump pic. 2) Even when you’re work friends with someone (but only see them in person maybe once a year, if that) shouldn’t a person know better than to ask this? 3) After reading AAM for so long, the request is so cringeworthy I’m having a hard time not stewing about it. It’s nothing I plan to take any action on – it’s not offensive or anything since I know it comes from good intentions… but, yeah. Now I have to figure out how to avoid this manager the next time she comes in for the monthly meetings. LOL. I guess I should just be glad this is the first time an awkward bump-related thing has came up, huh?

    1. Sam Sepiol*

      How very, very weird.
      Well done for saying no! I hope next time you can just avoid manager completely!

    2. Wishing You Well*

      Yeah, I’d be squicked out, too.
      You handled it well and that should be the end of it. You don’t have to avoid the exec-team member – just be professional. Consider emailing the colleague TODAY with something like “Actually, I’m not doing bump pics for this pregnancy – thanks.” That would help avoid a lot of stewing/anticipation for you.
      If you’re asked a second time, have a response ready that includes “no, thank you”. At that point, I’d talk to your HR, if I were you.
      Congratulations on the pregnancy! I’m wishing you all good things!

    3. Interplanet Janet*

      It seems totally reasonable to me to just say, “Oh, no no no. I am *SO* not a bump pic person!” This isn’t some kind of official request, right? Just somebody who wants to see?

      1. valentine*

        Right. You can tell them no. It’s weird for the exec to messenger the request and agree (or offer) to take the pic you don’t want for these people you’re not close to.

        And you do seem (rightfully) offended. I don’t think wanting such a pic is a good intention. What’s she going to do with it? Why does she want to see a colleague’s belly?

    4. Mr. Shark*

      Um, very squicky. I think the correct reply is, “No thanks, that’s okay.” And just leave it at that. I wouldn’t even suggest that maybe it would be different next time.

    5. Not A Manager*

      Is this a situation where you can use the AAM “I’m weird about this” response? Not that you should have to, but “I’m funny about pregnancy pictures” or “my family has some weird superstitions” or something like that?

      1. Lilysparrow*

        I really don’t think you need to. Having anyone but yourself or your SO (or maybe your mom) take a bump picture is pretty weird in the first place.

        “No thanks!” ought to cover it.

    6. Lilysparrow*

      Don’t avoid them. Just say no.

      I believe one of the evolutionary reasons why people become so intrusive and inappropriate when you’re pregnant is because we need practice saying “no” in a calm, pleasant, and decisive manner. Because you’ll be saying it six thousand times a day for the next eighteen years. You might as well start now.

    7. ..Kat..*

      Ask how this relates to you doing your job? Tell them a bump picture is personal and should not be a work requirement?

    8. Miss Pantalones en Fuego*

      I find the whole bump pic thing a little weird myself. I’ve never been pregnant but I am fat and I’m very not comfortable with photos of that part of my anatomy. I don’t care if some other person who I don’t actually know all that well thinks it’s cute. If they ask again I think you’d be within your rights to say something like “that’s not really my thing, so no thanks!”.

  76. yeine*

    hey all, wierd question for the day: i’m in a pretty good role that i like (don’t love, but it’s a career), with a good job, decent coworkers and salary, good benefits. i work in a role (user ops) with high turnover, in a field (tech) with high turnover – i’ve been there almost a year longer than the next person at the company.

    i’ve been here almost 4 years now and i could imagine myself being here longer. but it’s hard for me to grok being at one job for 10 or 15 years. it’s just hard to get into my millenial mindset (i’m 31). i’m pretty sure i’m just being weird, but does anyone have a way i can reframe this in my head so i will stop being like ‘you’ve been in this job too long, ya wierdo, time to move on’ when i know i’m still growing?

    1. Anne (with an “e”)*

      If you like your job, the salary, your managers, benefits, opportunities for growth, etc. then I do not see any reason to leave, just to leave. You do you. And, who’s to say that if you left the next job would not be toxic? Or have annoying coworkers? Or an unreasonable boss? Or something else wrong with it?

    2. Miss Pantalones en Fuego*

      I don’t think there’s a set time when you have to change jobs. Something will come up that might prompt you to start looking, like hearing about an interesting opportunity, but if you’re happy where you are there’s no outside reason to leave.

  77. Greensleeves*

    I am leaving my company soon for a new role and wondering what to do (if anything) about one of my subordinates who is having performance/attitude issues before I go.

    I am the director of tea sales at a beverage company. I manage a young sales associate named Jill, who has been with us over a year in her first sales role. Jill is very enthusiastic about sales and is a member of several salesperson networking associations, is constantly reading articles and doing professional development. However, Jill’s performance has been less than satisfactory. We have minimum goals for the # of sales meetings per month and the number of client outreaches. Jill has only met those goals once or twice. She spends more of her time meeting/networking with other salespeople. Her sales numbers are the lowest on the team, but we have a very dedicated group of buyers so this has obscured her lack of success. If you look closely at the data, she has only brought in a few new clients and upgraded another few–less than a dozen total. Despite repeatedly being shown this data, Jill seems to think she is doing a great job. My boss is also unbothered by this, saying that we can’t expect much from an entry-level employee.

    Jill can’t seem to stay on top of documenting her work, and frequently needs to be retrained on our processes. She can’t remember the names or details about any of her clients (a list of less than 200) without looking them up. Despite nearly daily reminders, she almost never checks her calendar and has missed several mandatory meetings recently. We have other teams that handle the other beverages we sell (coffee, soda, etc) and Jill often steps on her colleague’s toes in an attempt to be helpful. She has had repeated reminders that she is to stick to tea sales. For example, my boss handles all sales of coffee/tea makers (from espresso machines to french press). Jill has repeatedly pitched her clients on teapot sales despite being instructed to hand all of those off, and when reprimanded, argued that learning teapot sales is important for her professional development.

    Jill was written up in the beginning of the year for all these issues and while not put on a PIP, was given clear instructions on what she needed to stop doing, what she changes she needed to implement, and what a path forward to success looks like. I saw improvement for a few months, bringing her performance up to a C+ level. However, the last 2 months have been incredibly busy/stressful and Jill is slipping back into her old habits. One of the specific points was that she needed to follow the instructions of her superiors and our consultant–Jill has a tendency to ask other professionals in our industry for advice and follow their instructions rather than our processes.

    Wow! Why hasn’t Jill been terminated already, you ask? It’s very hard to get fired in my state and at my company, and Jill is a member of several protected classes.

    I am leaving at the end of the month for a new opportunity. Before I go we are planning a big event to pitch our business to new clients. This is an annual event we have been doing for about 10 years. Our RSVP numbers tend to be low until the last week before the event, and this year is no exception. On Monday, Jill found an old invite list on her computer and asked me if she could send invites to those people. I said no, the list was outdated and we have other, better methods of filling the room, and that she should focus on X and Y instead. On Tuesday, she sent invites to the list anyway. I found out and confronted her. She defended herself, saying that she was worried about the low RSVPs, and that I was “checked out” because I was leaving soon. I told her that she was being insubordinate, and that when her superior tells her not to do something, she is not to do it, and that her actions indicate that she thinks she knows better than me. Jill had also told me earlier this week that she was interviewing for another position as a sales manager. She brought that up and said that since she was leaving soon she was just trying to get through the next month and wrap up here. I don’t believe that she has had an actual, in-person interview yet.

    My question is–how do I get through the next few weeks without throttling Jill? And if you were in my position, would you write her up again before leaving? Her colleagues and her interim manager are also very frustrated with her, and would be happy to see her go. I believe that if she does manage to secure a new position, she would be let go in a matter of months.

    Thank you!

    1. Greensleeves*

      Addendum: 95% of the time, Jill is sweet, if overenthusiastic–think golden retriever puppy who desperately wants to please but has gotten herself into trouble and is not sure what she did wrong. But she does have a mean, vengeful streak. Jill knows the head of my new company and I wouldn’t put it past her to send an anonymous note if I pissed her off (and then immediately regret it). Jill definitely also has some learning differences/is neuroatypical and I try to be understanding & accommodate where I can. I’m not convinced she is capable of the kind of changes she would need to be successful in this field.

      1. The Man, Becky Lynch*

        I’m crying in side. The last person I could refer to as “like a golden retriever puppy” almost killed me professionally speaking. They were awful, drove me out of my job because they were simply unmanageable and yet so…sweet. So yeah, that’s a bad flashback right there!

        My advice is the same. Just do the same things you’d do even if you weren’t leaving and she’s the next managers problem. My puppy dog was fired as soon as another manager had the same issues, go figure.

    2. The Man, Becky Lynch*

      I would continue to discipline through the last part of your time with the company. It’s your job to keep up with that kind of thing, from my point of view. She’s already got a file going, continue to use it so that the next person will come in and have that for backup if they are able to get her terminated, finally.

    3. Errol*

      If she said she’s leaving at the end of the month, I’d be tempted to roll with that. “Jill, you said you were leaving at the end of next month but I have yet to see your formal resignation / plan to transition out of your role. Can you get me your end date and (customers/other relevant things) so we can start getting ready to on-board a replacement?”Could throw in some “so nice of you to give us so much notice” or some other thing. If she doesn’t actually have an interview not really your problem, that’s on her.

      But if you are leaving at the end of the month, just be straight with her about what she’s doing wrong – write ups and all. No need to be delicate if your on your way out too.

  78. Laura H.*

    Table update!: promised an update to the post on last week’s open thread (5/31/19 at 6:05pm)

    Boss seems onboard with the table idea- still no actual table out of it. And I was able to keep my feelings mostly out of it.

  79. LQ*

    I got the promotion. It’s been a long time coming but it is nice. Now I’m just stressed out about how I’m going to do all the additional work and how I’m going to get the next 5 GIANT projects underway.

    I’m deeply frustrated being a totally (not really but for this purpose) non-technical person and no one else in the room can provide anything that I haven’t already thought of and put together. I desperately want them to do better and know more than me, I know it’s hard and it’s new but I need these technical folks to step up and do their jobs so I can stop.

  80. Monster321*

    How would you try to build rapport with your boss if you don’t have much in common?

    I don’t care myself, but my boss does. He expects me to be his friend.

    The thing is: We really don’t have much in common. He’s older, with several kids. He loves talking about his family life, his children.

    I’m single, interested mainly in nerdy topics (tech). I love movies, series, politics. He doesn’t like these topics.

    Not to mention, the fact that I know he expects me to have a more personal attitude to him makes me tensed, so the whole thing becomes even more tricky to me.

    1. Smokin' Aces*

      This is a great time for you to learn how to ask questions about him and his interest. it’s a great time to learn that not everybody likes nerdy, series, politics stuff. It’s a great time to get out of your own head.

      He may not necessarily think you should be friends but it sounds like he might be concerned you’re not connecting on a level outside aside of work which is necessary to have a successful work relationships. you should only reveal what you’re comfortable with and nothing more but also continues to build a relationship. I may not be that into my boss, but I am interested in who she is outside of being a boss – being a mom or a business owner.

      Warning: your boss may not reciprocate but your consistency in inquiry, role-modeling behavior you might like to receive in return, is going to make this work.

      Tell me about your family

      Are you going on vacations this summer

      What’s the best vacation you’ve ever gone on

      How are your kids doing (ask about their activities, things you heard that they were engaged in)

      What are you guys doing this weekend?

      ** And please don’t talk about politics at work.

      1. Monster321*

        I do ask him questions like that.

        But then he replies with just one sentence. I think he senses that’s not 100% my world. I mean me asking him questions and him replying is not a good conversion, is it?

        1. Smokin' Aces*

          Maybe you’re inaccuratly interpreting what he wants from your interactions. You think he wants to be friends but maybe not?

          If you want to explore more, try to expand on his one sentence responses. If he gets annoyed because you try to keep the conversation going, then you know 1) he doesn’t like conversations 2) he’s struggling to connect with you or 3) you don’t understand his intentions and you should ask if he wants friendship or not.

          Don’t tiptoe. Ask him what he wants and try to give it to him. If he says he wants to be friends tell him you need more than one sentence to make it happen.

    2. The Man, Becky Lynch*

      My first reaction is to tell you that I’ve never had anything in common with my bosses until my current one, we’re always different generations, they have families and they play golf or love gardening, etc. They have more in common with my parents, needless to say.

      However I’ve always had good connections with them because they’re simply decent people with a lot for me to learn from. So I set it up more of a mentor setup.

      Well politics don’t ever belong in the office. I had one boss who was into politics…me too but his were the polar opposite and it was stressful keeping my mouth shut and just laughing it off internally since we thankfully are in an area where mine are the majority and his is the minority.

      I always just talk about what I like, regardless of if the boss cares or not. It’s not about if he cares, it’s about you sharing that part of yourself with them.

      Standard conversations I’ve had with my previous, older bosses are.

      “Hey boss, how’s it going? Any weekend plans?”
      “I’m going to get into the garden, we’ve got to get these flowers ASAP. You up to anything fun?”
      “I’m going to prowl around the zoo and make faces at the otters.”
      “Cool! Hey did you get those numbers for me on last year’s banana cracker sales?”
      “Yeah I did, here you go.”

      Or

      “Kiddo has soccer all weekend.”
      “Don’t forget your sunscreen!” [Joke because they got sunburned awhile back due to that issue]
      “Ha ha really funny!”
      “This is why I stay inside all the time, my alabaster skin is too sensitive for such sun soaked activities!”

    3. Lemon Zinger*

      Do you have to engage in these conversations? I really don’t discuss my personal life with my boss. When she talks about her life, I nod and smile politely, then change the subject to something work-related.

      My manager might ask “What did you do this weekend?” and I’ll say “Oh, just chores” or “Quality time with my dog.”

      Basically my strategy is to be very boring.

  81. peachie*

    For those of you with project-based work, how much time per week do you spend working on specific projects? We have to record our time per project in addition to our regular work timesheet, and I’m anxious that I’m under- or over-counting hours. There doesn’t seem to be a lot of consistency — some people record more than our scheduled hours, some people record way fewer, and I’m somewhere in between. I usually record maybe 65% of my scheduled hours; the highest I have is 95%. I’m just not sure how I should be considering the time I spend on other tasks: non-specific meetings, general admin/cleanup, training, and, most significantly, testing/exploration I do that may not be for a specific project. (I work with databases and analysis, and it’s a complicated data model, so I spend a LOT of time digging and verifying [and then compiling reference records and notes to reduce the amount of time I/others have to spend doing that].)

    I’m going to talk to my manager about this, but I’d also like to hear how others handle it.

    1. CheeryO*

      This is unfortunately going to be very job- and industry-specific. I’ve worked with and for environmental consulting firms that expect 40+ billable hours per week, meaning that you’d have to put in extra hours to do any tasks that would be considered overhead. At other companies, you might be able to get away with less.

      1. CheeryO*

        I should add that you definitely shouldn’t feel weird about talking to your manager about this. Everything is easier when there are clear expectations! It also may be the case that you can charge some of the time that you spend playing with the model to projects, or maybe they can add a time code for that for you.

        1. peachie*

          Thank you for answering! I’m suspecting I might be able to do something like that. It’s funny — my mom does similar work but on a contract basis (I’m exempt/salaried). She’s VERY good at what she does and ends up spending a lot of time figuring out and untangling very messy databases. She works SO much — easily 30+ hours a week on the contract stuff alone, not counting her four-day-a-week desk job — but she bills for maybe 50% of the time. She won’t bill for the huge amount of time she spends on a project testing and figuring out how to do it. I keep telling her that she is an expert and they’re paying her to figure it out because no one else can, so she SHOULD bill for the ‘figuring it out’ part. But she feels weird doing so, and looking at my own hours, I guess I do too.

    2. Anon attorney*

      I work in a billable hour business but part of my job is knowledge management eg creating precedents, writing information and procedure notes for other attorneys. Sounds like you’re doing the equivalent. I’d focus on characterising this work as business process optimisation and knowledge management and having a story to tell about how it adds value ie saving the team time. The risk with some of this stuff is that the value add isn’t clearly stated and the activities are ignored, undervalued or you’re expected to just find time for them on top of billable hour delivery. You need to find out how your company views knowledge management in relation to project resources utilisation.

    3. Plant*

      My company plans 5 % for organization/meetings, 5 % for learning (on your own or in trainings), 5 % for improving the business. So 85 % of your time is supposed to be billable. It might be reduced further if you have other regular tasks that cannot be billed (e.g. leading a team).

      We’re in IT/business consulting.

  82. animaniactoo*

    Just a super-nice moment that happened this week.

    My boss was at an industry conference and was meeting with one of our (household name) licensors that I manage a line for. We’ve been having an issue with the current style of product, and there are some elements that we’d like early access to, so my boss was trying to make the case for why we really really need it and can we pretty please have it. As background, the licensor is familiar with me and my work, I’ve dealt with them directly before.

    The licensor asked why I’d chosen to use the variation of the element that I had, and my boss said “To be honest, I don’t know. But I’m sure there was a really good reason for it because animaniactoo knows her shit.” They agreed. So much so that by the time my boss called me to relay this story and ask me for more specifics about which particular elements we wanted access to, they didn’t even want the answer to the question any more.

    Me: Wow. This is a nice reputation to have. :D

    2. peachie*

      That’s great! It’s so good to be recognized that way. I’m going to make an effort to do this more — there’s plenty of people about whom I think “wow, they know their shit!” but I don’t say it as much as I should.

  83. Washi*

    Is it possible to volunteer to create a document without volunteering to be responsible for that document’s maintenance forever? I’m a faster typer and better in Word than most of my coworkers so I previously would take on typing up procedures/resources, then I told everyone where they are in the shared drive and so people could modify them as necessary. But what actually happens is that every time someone makes a change, they come up to me and ask me to make it for them. When I tell people (nicely) to make the change themselves, they seem confused and put off.

    When you volunteer to type something, are you volunteering for maintenance? Is there a way to head off the responsibility to update documents from the beginning without sounding churlish? I’ve started to just avoid having to make documents altogether because I have no desire to be the Policy Person but that seems to be the only way to get out of it.

    1. Rusty Shackelford*

      Oh, no, I agree with you. That’s nonsense. Maybe it would help if you emphasized your role along the way. When you volunteer to type something, say “I can type this up, and then I’ll put it on the shared drive so everyone can maintain it as needed.” And when you notify them it’s available, again, “The TPS form is on the shared drive, please make corrections to it as needed.”

    2. Rezia*

      I think you can’t go wrong being explicit. “I’m happy to type this up but I don’t want to be responsible for maintenance forever — can we agree that any further edits after I type it up can be made by the person who wants to make the edit?”

  84. XtinaLyn*

    Hi AAM community! I received a resumé from a woman who applied for a job she was clearly not qualified for. (There were specific qualifications within our industry that were required; she not only didn’t have them, but she’d never worked in our industry before.) That part is fine, but the worst part was her SEVEN PAGE resumé filled with her past times (pottery! charcoal drawing! taking her 3-year old to the zoo!) and outlining her personal details (height, weight, marital status and religion). The applicant is not a native American, and I’d love to give her some kind and supportive direction on her resumé without making her think her resumé is the reason she’s being rejected. Any advice on how to thread this needle?

    1. fposte*

      If it’s not solicited, I don’t know that I would; I’d be likelier to if she were brand new to the U.S. job market. I’d probably just add at the bottom something like “P.S., it looks like you may still be using European CV conventions; here’s a link to an explanation of American resume conventions that you might find helpful” and include a link to AAM.

      1. ceiswyn*

        …none of those things are European CV conventions. Cerrtainly not in the UK. They’re just a sign of someone who apparently doesn’t know the first thing about how CVs work. And given how much information there is available, that is totally on her.

        1. fposte*

          That’s a cover story, not an assessment; it doesn’t matter whether they’re somebody else’s conventions or not (and I randomly chose “European” anyway, since I have no idea where this woman’s from).

      1. XtinaLyn*

        Why? Because if I can choose to either help someone or ignore them, why not choose to help? She doesn’t stand a chance of landing a job here if her resumé remains in the same sad state it’s in. That’s why I’m part of the AAM community–to ask for help when needed, and offer help when needed.

      1. Wishing You Well*

        Yup, check with HR first.
        Even if they okay it, please find another outlet for your charitable efforts. If the resume is a joke, you’re wasting your time. If it’s real, it’s likely a huge time commitment.

    4. The Man, Becky Lynch*

      Don’t touch it!!! Don’t touch it!!! You’ll regret it!!!

      You have a kind heart and a good soul for wanting to assist another human but this is too much of a landmine.

      Also do not ever bring up “this isn’t the way we do it in the US” kind of thing. That opens up the “hey so I notice you’re not from here…” and can punch a “OIC this is discrimination…” [You should be safe enough since she’s not at all qualified but don’t even go down that rabbit hole of doom, please.]

      It’s unsolicited advice that may or may not be received well. So you should just not touch it with a ten foot pole.

      1. fposte*

        Oh, shoot, you’re right on the country of origin thing. That’s a great out, but it’s true that it’s a bad idea to explicitly allude to it.

        1. The Man, Becky Lynch*

          It’s also possible to be lost in translation if someone has limited English perhaps.

          I say this because I have lovely coworkers that when I speak to them, we communicate great, despite their ESL. However I have had a couple “oh shi* I didn’t mean it that way” moments when writing [in an IM or text etc.] So it’s such an easy mistake to make to come from a great spot and find your foot in your mouth. Thankfully we cleared it up immediately on my side because I then picked up the phone, talked it out and then stopped communicating via text with that person except to say very specific, basic stuff. This is from me, the person who uses emojis and exclamation points constantly to convey my tone but nope, still exploded.

        2. ThursdaysGeek*

          Then how about a variation on your advice above: “It looks like you sent a CV instead of a resume, which are not interchangeable.” Sure, it may not look like a CV either, but at 7 pages, it’s sure not a resume. And the note does not refer to country of origin or anything else, just points out that they’re not sending the appropriate documents.

      2. AcademiaNut*

        The protected class is a landmine here. You’d be offering advice to someone you’ve just turned down for a job, based on the assumption that the incompetence of their application is based on being part of a specific protected class. Don’t do this!

        I think you could actually address the first part much more easily – the fact that she lacks required qualifications for the industry and cannot be considered for the job. In general, I think offering unsolicited advice on applications is best reserved for cases when the candidate is almost a strong candidate, but has something specific holding them back. If someone is applying for jobs they’re not even remotely qualified for *and* has a terrible resume, that’s more than you can fix by offering advice, however kindly meant.

  85. Violet 628*

    Does anyone have pointers for finding a flexible, full-time position during grad school? I am currently employed, but my position has an extremely high workload and long hours. Up until now I have been able to make it work while taking classes part-time, but as I get into my required field placement and classes become more paper-intensive, I don’t think think my current position will be sustainable. The field requirement will be 20 hours a week, so I need a significant chunk of time for that. I absolutely need to be able to count on finishing work on time. My position is so demanding and I never know what time I will be leaving because there are constant crises. My grades aren’t what they could be as a result, and as my program gets more demanding, I need more time in my life.

    My grad school does offer assistantships, but the stipend is not enough to meet living costs. It seems to be more designed for people with significant spousal or parental support. So unfortunately, a TA/research assistant position would be out of the question for my particular situation. Preferably, I’d like to continue employment in healthcare/social services since that is my area of study/where I have the most experience.

    I am a little hesitant to leave, because my current job offers some *limited* flexibility, meaning I can shift my hours when my class schedule changes. But ideally, I’d like something where I could work from home when need be (that is not an option at my current job). At the very minimum, I’d like an arrangement where I can come in late or leave early on occasion if needed. My current position is “butt in the seat,” so I am stuck there during scheduled hours (and often much later). However, I’m scared that in my quest to find a more flexible employer, I might find a less flexible one. A lot of employers give lip service to flexibility, but then don’t actually deliver. Any tips for sensing out employers who actually are accommodating versus those who claim they are flexible just to entice prospective employees? I am just so afraid that by trying to make my situation better, it will become worse. I feel conflicted because at least I know what I am dealing with at my current employer. The prospect of adjusting to a new employer while dealing with the crazy workload of grad school is a bit daunting!

    1. fposte*

      It’s a tall order, because “flexible” usually means “willing to take a back seat to school,” and that can be a hard sell. I know you said that TA/RAships won’t work for you, but can you check to see if there’s relevant university employment that isn’t a student job? I’d also recommend that you ask your fellow students, who may already be doing a job like this, and check with student affairs to see if they know about students who’ve worked full time and where.

    2. NotAPirate*

      A lot of grad students end up qualifying for food stamps. Super underpaid and graduate school hours make it very challenging to add a part time job. Things like babysitting and dog walking or house sitting can be lucrative and easier to fit into the chunks of time you’ll end up with free. If you can try to set aside money for a couple years while employed full time before starting grad school.

      Depends on field but ideally you would want to get a job that pays for you to get your masters while keeping you employed by them. That’s the sweet spot.

  86. NaoNao*

    My international background/criminal check is taking forever!! It’s been 6 business days and over a full week now.

    I received and accepted a job offer on Tuesday after Memorial Day, so about 10 days ago now. It’s contingent on a background check clearing. The company doing the background checks is A-check, who is well known for being super thorough and rigid. Fine, I have nothing to hide or worry about.

    I lived in a developing Asian country for 3 years starting 9 years ago and ending 6 years ago. Cut off for this check is 7 years. So the company is doing a criminal history check in this developing country as well.

    I get an email asking me to sign a release for a criminal background check by a specific local agency in former developing Asian country on Wednesday night of last week. I immediately fill it out, scan and upload it, and also upload my exit visa, and scans of my resident alien card and work visa and a couple other similar papers.

    I get a “thanks, we got it, we don’t need any other paper work” a few hours later/early next day.

    I then sit tight over the weekend. On Monday of this week I call my HR guy and say I think we’re going to have to push the start date we agreed on, as I really can’t give 2 weeks before everything is fully buttoned up and I haven’t heard anything.

    He’s super nice and notes that everything in the US has cleared and it’s just this country they’re waiting on.

    I actually called the background check company to make sure I wasn’t missing anything and although they were polite, they were like “we have everything, and we can’t tell you more than that.”

    I’m just paranoid that this will drag on to the point that they rescind their offer! They haven’t done anything to indicate this, it’s just that this is really difficult to get through right now. I’m not able to give 2 weeks until this clears so I have to take meetings and work on projects and talk about the future full well knowing I won’t be here, but also I’m having trouble focusing and being productive as I’m so worried about this getting nailed down.

    Anyone else gone through a lengthy or international background check that can give me some reassurance here? Thanks!

    1. Been There*

      Not an international background check, but I did have to push my start date at CurrentJob by a week because the background check and physical took longer than expected – They were super understanding about it. If it’s a good company, I wouldn’t stress too much. These things happen.

    2. Judgment day*

      Six business days? That doesn’t seem that long for something like this. It’s a different level of scrutiny but I a lot of people I’ve worked or studied with have gone to work for the federal government in roles where the background investigations took 1-2 years.

      I assume the background check company has done work internationally before so you’ll have to trust them to advise the company on a normal turnaround time for things like this. If the company isn’t used to dealing with developing countries they may be confused or frustrated, but the background check company is the one with the expertise to advise them.

  87. Waiting for the email*

    Anyone have tips for staying sane during a restructure? All that’s happening is six departments are being paired/merged into three departments, with everything continuing as normal. (Other than the three soon-to-be extra department heads, obviously, who will either be demoted or laid off.) Any day know we’ll have an official email laying out the new structure. Any day now.

    But oh my god, the amount of territorial moaning and gossiping about what the new units will be named. One of the departments might be split and merged out in different directions, which tbh makes sense because of how their portfolios have evolved, and you’d think the director leading this change had suggested murdering babies.

    We were supposed to have the new alignments and department names announced early last week, but still nothing. The original timeline would have the new structure in place for the start of August. So many staff hours spent gossiping! Please let us know so we can emotionally move on!

    (No, it’s not the healthiest workplace, but our whole industry is under lots of pressure.)

  88. Oxford Comma*

    A comment from one of yesterday’s posts is still sticking with me. It had to do with social media and the inadvisability of being “friends” with your employees or managers on social media. I understand this in theory, but in practice it seems to be a pretty grey area. I work in academic librarianship (smallish field) and I have quite a lot “friends” on Facebook and Twitter. Some of these were former classmates. Others were peers who either I now report to or who now report to me. Others are are librarians from outside institutions, but who may end up at mine or vice versa.

    Obviously, I try not to post much (if at all) about specific workplace issues, but how do you navigate this when these relationships shift without causing more damage?

    1. RainbowsAndKitties*

      For me: managing lists and privacy settings on FB. I have a list that I use exclusively to prevent people from seeing posts on FB that I think might be even a little “controversial” in any sense (the list includes non-friend coworkers and colleagues, former coworkers, random family members, and other people I don’t know so well). I’ve also posted stuff about work and specifically made it available to only a handful of people on FB. But, I also never post anything that would completely mortify me if someone passed it on. My personal rule is that if there is a possibility that a post (no matter how protected) could ruin any aspect of my life, I hit delete and don’t post it. You never know if someone will screenshot and share.

      1. Oxford Comma*

        That’s a good idea and easy enough to set up.

        How, though, do you handle seeing the stuff from other people? That came up yesterday as well.

        1. RainbowsAndKitties*

          I haven’t run into that a lot, but when I did, I just put it out in the open. I’m unabashedly honest with my direct reports, so it wasn’t weird for me to say: “Hey, you know that I can see your posts on facebook right? And I saw you post a photo of your coworkers while we were working. Keep in mind that we work with confidential information, and it is possible that some of that could have been inadvertently captured in the photo. Please don’t do that again.” Or “I saw you make a joke on your facebook about calling out sick when you really wanted to go to a concert. You know our leave policies. Obviously this is your personal facebook, but I do have to address any concerns of things that I see on Facebook related to work. I don’t want to see anything like that on there again”
          Basically I’m telling them work expectations, acknowledging that their facebook is still social media that belongs to them and that I’m not the facebook police, but that anything work-related on there is a concern of mine if I can see it. So basically in the second example “I don’t want to see it” means “Block me from those posts in the future”. But you saw in the first example I put a firm “Don’t do it again” out there. So it depends on the situation. And, of course, sometimes there are things that I think are awkward/embarrassing that aren’t really my concern and I just let them go and pretend I didn’t see them.

    2. Anonymous Educator*

      Former classmates? I don’t see any reason why you can’t be friends or even “friends” with your former classmates. But, yeah, being “friends” with your manager or your direct reports you probably want to hold off on doing. That said, if someone is a long-time friend (or “friend”) and ends up later working for you, there’s no reason to de-friend that person. You can just adjust your privacy settings.

      1. Oxford Comma*

        I understand not friending new people who are in supervisory relationships or who you supervise.

        My conundrum is for the people who used to be peers and who are now either people you supervise or who are in managerial roles over you. It’s one thing to just let friend requests sit in limbo or to not make them. But when you’ve already got these kinds of existing relationships on social media–how do you handle that? I like RainbowsAndKitties’ idea of lists and will probably go that way.

        1. Anonymous Educator*

          Yeah, definitely lists. It takes a bit of management, but it’s worth it.

    3. EDinTX*

      I am not friends on social media with anyone I currently work with – supervisors, coworkers, subordinates, or people in other divisions. There have been times when I changed jobs and had to delete someone – if they noticed, I just explained that this was my personal policy and I never got any pushback.

    4. Glomarization, Esq.*

      In addition to not talking about work (TBH, not very hard for my industry since I can’t very well talk about my cases/clients online anyway), I never post anything I wouldn’t want read back to me in front of a court reporter. I hesitate before I post something that would have the whiff of causing drama among any circles of friends. And when I go to a party or event or I take a trip, I try to hold off on posting photos until well afterward, to try to avoid any “aw, I wasn’t invited” drama.

      My FB life ends up being very, very boring.

  89. Not really a waitress*

    I think my boss is a legend in her own mind. She talks a good game but after 8 months I haven’t really seen her execute. We do Alpaca training. While I have more experience and education in training in general, her experience is in the Alpacas

    1. She talks about her Six Sigma cert and how her entire house is organized to the 5 Ss but her office looks like a bomb went off

    2. She is planning another performance improvement event for next week and spelled the specific type of event wrong every single time in the document she sent out.

    3. Three months ago she went to a training that she was supposed to come back from and certify me in. We were supposed to go live last week. I have asked her a number of times for the materials so I can get started at least studying, but she has forgotten it at home.

    4. She doesn’t respond to emails, texts, etc or communicate changes .

    5. She really doesn’t produce. Although she uses the word “we” alot.

    I work with in a department with no clear strategy and or vision, although because of the way my role is I can do a lot without her interference. Because of my role, I provide support to the various Alpaca wranglers and am able to do so successfully. I am concerned because I think eventually her lack of leadership and strategy will catch up to us and I am concerned with getting caught in the middle.

    I like my job, the people I work with, the commute, the benefits, the pay, but I hate knowing I am in a slowly sinking ship of a department

  90. VictoriaQ*

    What do you guys do when there’s nothing to do at a job? I’m in my first job post-college (which is almost in my field, but not quite) and while I have a nice salary, and my coworkers are friendly, I’m surprised at how much free time I have. I feel bad being on my phone (I don’t really want to be reading non-work stuff on my computer, and I have my own office and we don’t deal with clients so there’s some leeway there) but I’m also excruciatingly bored. I do have a busywork task that I can do and would fill up time, but it would require me to be away from my desk for long stretches of times, and it makes me rather inaccessible.

    I’ve tried asking my manager for more work/things to learn, and she’s told me she wants me to talk to Office Manager, and Office Manager has said that until things pick up, she’s taught me all she can. Is this just something that’s normal at entry-level type jobs, especially at small companies? I was expecting that I would be doing a lot of the boring data entry type tasks, I was not expecting to have free time.

    1. Shamy*

      Honestly, I am in this position and have been for awhile. I try to read up on things for CEU’s if that is applicable to your field. I look for free courses to brush up my computer skills. I also do homework if I am taking courses. If I have a big life even going on like wedding planning, home buying, I do that. I also used some of that time when I was taking online classes to do the responses on the boards for that too. After a while though, you do start to find that it is painful to do this day in and day out. I have lasted because it has given me so much flexibility in getting schoolwork done.

    2. RainbowsAndKitties*

      I’m in this position. I do things similar to what Shamy suggested: I am trying to learn ALL about Excel, VBA, macros, etc. because I believe it will make my job easier in the long run. So I spend a lot of time watching videos (with headphones) and reading tutorials. I also listen to podcasts that are related to my line of work to keep up on current events in the industry. Get creative! There are tons of free online courses for all kinds of things. Even if they are only slightly related to your job, I personally think that your time is better spent doing stuff like that. Plus, you can stun your new employers with your new knowledge and skills!

    3. Anonymous Educator*

      Teach yourself something, preferably something directly or tangentially related to work. If you really can’t, then teach yourself wholly unrelated to work.

      1. Admin of Sys*

        And FWIW, there are a /lot/ of things that are tangentially related to work. Languages, writing skills, project management skills, organizational theory, psychology, presentation skills are all things that can make you a better employee, and are therefore related to work.

    4. Middle Manager*

      A few jobs back I was in this situation, right after I got hired the supervisor quit and no one really had time to train me and it felt very hard to be useful. I did what other commenters are mentioning here- took tons of free online trainings/webinars related to my field, read all the background documents I could, and did a little self training in excel to improve my skills. It did get old sometimes though and I really wanted to feel productive. So I also kept, politely, reminding my grand boss that I was available to help out.

    5. Lilysparrow*

      Yes, this is normal. Especially in businesses that have pronounced busy/slack seasons. Being fully-staffed to cover busy season means there is downtime in the off season.

      Can you set any sort of “away message” for when you are doing the busywork task, even if it’s just a sign on your desk?

      When you’ve been there longer, you’ll have a better sense of what kinds of things would be useful to do proactively. It’s also really normal to do self-education, skill building, career-development type stuff if you have no regular work to do.

  91. Blue Hair, Don't Care*

    I have a job interview next week and am a little unsure how to approach the hiring manager with regard to my hair color. My hair is dark blue, purple, and turquoise. I tend towards a more alternative look anyways (shaved head except long hair to my shoulders on top). I read over the AAM old post about the person interviewing with blue hair, but I think my situation is a bit different in that 1) I am not willing to wear a wig to the interview or 2) probably not willing to go back to a more natural color (the best they might get is a rich burgundy red). I realize this could make them reject me right away and I am fine with that. I just thought this position looked interesting and decided to apply. My field is in the middle with some parts leaning conservative and others like where I am in government research being more laid back.

    I plan to dress super sharp, but I am trying to figure out if I should actually say something during the interview or just go and say nothing, letting the chips fall where they may since I am not desperate. Should I have said something when they called to schedule the interview to give them a heads up or is that making more of a thing about it? Would love some peoples’ thoughts.

    1. ceiswyn*

      I would go for not making a thing of it at all. Treat the issue as though awesomely coloured hair is entirely normal in the workplace. Just sport a professional demeanour, and let them take their cues from that.

      After all, if they’re the kind of workplace that will be put off by brightly coloured hair, the job probably wouldn’t work out in the long term anyway.

      1. Mimi Me*

        Agreed. I once knew a VP at a conservative financial company who had bright pink hair. I admit being startled when I first saw her but once she opened her mouth and starting speaking I never noticed it again.

      2. Blue Hair, Don't Care*

        This is what I have been leaning towards. I don’t want to come across apologetic or ashamed of it because frankly, it is gorgeous and was very expensive. If they mention it, I may just have to say something along the lines of “I love experimenting” so they don’t get the idea I would go back to natural. I mean, who knows, I might, but I don’t want there to be an upset if I don’t. At least this way, they know exactly what they are getting.

      3. Catsaber*

        I agree with this, I would not bring it up at all.

        Some people might be a little surprised and ask questions, but if they do, have a short, canned response ready: “Yep that’s my hair!” or “I really like these colors!” and just move on.

        1. Blue Hair, Don't Care*

          Thank you for the response! I was struggling with trying to figure out what to say without sounding apologetic or like I would be willing to change it. These are perfect!

    2. Arielle*

      If your hair is obviously blue and you have no intention of changing it, I don’t think I would say anything. I’m not sure what purpose it would serve. The interviewer has eyes and can see your hair is blue, and if they pass on hiring you because of it, it’s probably not a place you want to work anyway, right?

      1. Blue Hair, Don't Care*

        My thoughts exactly, but wanted to be sure I wasn’t missing some other angle I should be considering.

    3. Antilles*

      I don’t see any reason to say something about the hair, ever – either before the interview or during it.
      If they’re a company which cares about your hair color, then it won’t matter, because you won’t fit what they want regardless. So it doesn’t help you.
      On the flip side, if they’re a company which doesn’t particularly care about the hair color, then bringing it up is just going to put more emphasis on it and make it into a bigger deal than it otherwise would be.

      1. Blue Hair, Don't Care*

        This is a really good point I hadn’t considered, that it would potentially be making an issue out of what would have been a nonissue.

    4. Wannabe Disney Princess*

      Not the same thing because my hair is currently a little bit more natural in color (rose gold), but still decidedly NOT a natural hair color…but I didn’t say a word. I just interviewed like normal. The only comment I got was when the GrandBoss met me on the first day and said, “Whoa, WDB’s got some color in her hair. Looks nice!” And that was it.

      1. Blue Hair, Don't Care*

        Thank you for sharing your experience. Your hair sounds kick ass! I was super into red for many years and even the boldest reds didn’t seem to phase people, which is sort of ironic, because I think my blue is actually more subdued!

        1. Wannabe Disney Princess*

          If I had more disposable income, I would totally play with my hair more. The rose gold is nice because my hair is naturally blonde so when it fades, it fades nicely. Which is also my default answer whenever anyone brings up my hair. I match my tone to fit their question.

          I also leaned into my quirkiness. I carried a Star Wars purse into the interview. (Granted, that was on accident…but I’m pretty sure it’s what got me the job.)

          1. Blue Hair, Don't Care*

            I love that! I would totally hire someone brazen enough to rock a Star Wars purse. My niece just bought a Deadpool wallet I have been coveting. I am all about leaning into who you are. You managed to get me googling rose gold hair and I am now in love with a metallic one I found. I do wish it was more affordable to get it done more often.

            1. Wannabe Disney Princess*

              It wasn’t so much being brazen as realizing I forgot to switch to my more professional Black Widow purse (totally only obvious if you knew what it was – otherwise just looked like a nice black purse, with a design). Realized it as soon as I got out of the car. Has a rainbow chain strap and everything. So I tucked it behind me and walked in. Finished the interview. As I stood up and swung my purse around (totally forgetting it looks like a manual for the Millenium Falcon), my now boss paused and pointed as he said, “That’s a GREAT purse.”

          2. Elizabeth West*

            Ha, I wore a Marvel charm bracelet to an interview. I didn’t get the job, but I don’t think the bracelet had anything to do with it. It made me feel confident on a day when my jerkbrain was being a jerk, so I wore it.

      2. CheeryO*

        Ooh, would you be willing to share a little in the weekend thread, if you think of it? I don’t want to derail, but I’m intensely curious as to what products you use (or if you go to a salon). I’ve been pining after rose gold hair for ages.

        1. Wannabe Disney Princess*

          I’d be happy to! If I forget (or am not swift), mention it and I’ll keep an eye out.

    5. Errol*

      Make sure your hair is neat and well styled! I found with my wild color hair that people were much less taken aback when it was meticulously styled with my professional suit then when I had it pulled back. No warnings, let them make the judgement when they see if instead of putting the bias in their heads before they’ve met you.

      I had a full head of electric blue hair (how I miss it) I also had pink, purple, green, and electric blue and green hair for a few years there with half my head shaved/ mohawk.

      1. Blue Hair, Don't Care*

        Thank you as well for sharing. I figure even if my hair color isn’t a deal breaker, the cut itself might be, so no point in stressing. I love that the consensus seems to be, “Lean in!”

    6. The Man, Becky Lynch*

      You want to weed out the ultra conservatives that would have an issue with your hair anyways, nobody should work for a company that is going to try to change you.

      I come from the world where “alternative” is actually our norm. So it just doens’t phase me. Don’t make a thing out of it. Go in like you have your natural color of hair and if someone is all “Oh wow, blue hair?!” you go “Oh yeah, it is, isn’t it.”

      1. Blue Hair, Don't Care*

        This is exactly how I feel. I will be making a huge career change in the next couple years (med school, fingers crossed) that will likely require me to tone down my look. So, for right now, I want to enjoy my freedom. I like your response as well for any comments I might receive.

  92. shep*

    How do you politely disentangle yourself from a long, rambly phone call with a client/constituent?

    I work in government and get lots of regulation-related questions. Occasionally, I’ll get a VERY chatty person. One in particular kept me on the phone for over twenty minutes with no end in sight; she’d thank me for the information, then launch into a new story (which would range in subject matter from her previous work to her grandchildren). She SUPER nice and [I imagine] just starved for conversation, but it got to the point where she was describing in great detail how her infant grandchild began nursing on her husband’s elbow, and I have SO MUCH on my plate that I can’t just sit and chat with everyone at length. I waited for a lull and then said that I was very sorry to interrupt, but I needed to head to a meeting. I felt a mildly awful, and then she seemed suddenly very self-conscious about how off-topic and chatty she’d gotten and hung up pretty immediately after a hurried thank you, which made me feel even more awful.

    I don’t think there’s a much better way to do this, but in anyone’s experience…is there a better way to do this? Or do you just deal with feeling kind of like a jerk? (I also admit I’m an anxious person, so I imagine stuff like this gives me way more anxiety than it should.)

    1. Washi*

      Honestly, you did exactly the right thing. I work with elderly people, many of whom are socially isolated would be thrilled to chat on the phone for hours, and who also sometimes have memory difficulties so they have no idea that they are completely dominating the conversation or how long it’s gone on. It may help to realize that some people will not stop talking until they are interrupted, and you can either let it go on and get more and more annoyed, or you can interrupt when you actually need to go. Sometimes I’ll phrase my interruption as “oh my goodness, I am so sorry to interrupt, but I need to head to a meeting! But it was so nice talking to you – have a great day!” or “Rita, I would love to talk more, but unfortunately I need to run. We’ll be in touch, bye now!” Something really warm so they know I’m not mad, I just needed to go.

    2. ArtK*

      Many of us have been socialized to believe that we need the other person’s permission to end the conversation. We don’t. “Sorry, I’ve got another task I have to take care of. It’s been lovely chatting and we’ll talk soon.” Don’t worry about the other person’s embarassement. You’re not responsible for their feelings.

    3. LCL*

      “I have to go now. Tell me any other technical questions you have, and I will call you back at (specific time).” or,
      “I have to go now. I will be available by phone at this number during (available times.)”

      When you are providing a service to the public, sometimes you have to gently shut them down so you can continue to do your job.

    4. Overeducated*

      When we’re past the point at which it’s a real conversation, I just go “mmhmm” a lot while trying to multi-task and clear out some simple,tasks on my to-do list that don’t require a lot of focus.

    5. Wishing You Well*

      You did fine. Other responses would have been equally fine. Stopping a runaway chatterer is a phone skill and after the 12th time, you’ll probably feel less anxious. After the 100th time, you’ll be a pro.
      I’m wishing you continued success in your work.

  93. ceiswyn*

    I need someone to tell me I’m not a horrible and unprofessional person. Or possibly that I am, I genuinely don’t know!

    I started work at my current job seven months ago. They were in a real hole, having been without a dragon wrangler for several months. I fairly quickly realised that the way the company expects its dragon wranglers to work hasn’t changed since sometime in the 90s, but my manager was very open to the idea of change, and started the process of updating how we wrangle. He also invested a lot in getting me trained in the habits of five-clawed dragons. Unfortunately, this – and a perfect storm of other issues – also meant delaying the process of hiring the minion everyone agreed that I needed, so for the last few months I’ve been overworked, unsupported, and doing things I really don’t enjoy. In addition, the corporate environment is much more structured than I really feel comfortable in, and some of their IT decisions have resulted in constant minor irritations.

    Reader, I legged it.

    I am now working my notice and feeling like an utter heel, as the company was already operating in emergency mode and losing its sole dragon wrangler for a SECOND time will result in all sorts of flames.

    I’m confident that I have made the right decision for me, I’m OK with burning the bridge, but… I feel really bad. Is there any good way to navigate the rest of my time here? Or is being professional and acknowledging that they have every right to be disappointed about the best I can do?

    1. shep*

      I feel for you! I don’t know that I have any good advice to give, but I was in a somewhat similar position years ago when I did a brief stint as a social worker. Everyone there was overworked (my boss would LITERALLY fall asleep while I was asking him questions and then apologize profusely) and the training was non-existent. On top of that, the whole atmosphere of the place was one of constant emergency, and I absolutely hated the work. I gained fifteen pounds in a month (and I’m SMALL person–like, super short, so relative to my size it was a ton of weight, on top of the fact that I’d been steadily gaining weight already since undergrad). I felt totally unsupported.

      Luckily my boss was a super nice person. He was mortified when I handed in my notice, and I was already mortified, so we were a pair of utterly mortified people, but that job was so bad on so many levels that I felt totally justified in quitting. The pay was abysmal on top of everything (but later, I found out that he was able to talk to the board of directors and DOUBLE the pay for that position based on my exit interview, so some good came of it!).

      The hardest thing for me to do was tell a client’s mother that I was leaving. There may’ve been a better way to navigate it, but it would’ve gone badly either way. The day before I learned I was selected for the job I wanted, I had a long meeting with her and her daughter, and she spoke AT LENGTH about how horrible all her case managers and associated people had been, and how her daughter needed someone who would be around for a while. She also found out that I was of specific cultural descent, and then proceeded to extol the virtues of “my people,” and that she knew I was a good person because of this.

      It made me VERY uncomfortable.

      And then I had to tell her the next week that I was quitting.

      It…did not go well. I wasn’t screamed at, but she started to shake her head and cry, and I excused myself from the meeting very quickly.

      All of that is to say that you absolutely need to do what’s best for you. You sound like you’re being very conscientious about how to couch your resignation and subsequent last few weeks with current employer, and it sounds like if a bridge is burned, it will be on them.

    2. Fey*

      It’s normal to feel bad. It means you’re human. :) But your only obligation to your company, regardless of the state of emergency, is to resign with reasonable notice, which you’ve done, and to do a proper job while serving your notice (instead of slacking off), which I’m sure you’re doing. Yeah, they’re disappointed but hey, so are you, that’s why you’re leaving. They didn’t try to expedite the process of hiring you an assistant. Instead they let you be overworked, unsupported, and do things you don’t enjoy for months. You get to decide for yourself when you’ve had enough. They’ll be fine.

    3. Antilles*

      I don’t see anything wrong here.
      First off, a properly managed company should generally not be so reliant on one employee that losing someone burns down the building. People leave, they transition jobs, they have health issues; even though dragon wrangling is a very unique skill, they should really have a backup plan of some sort. Maybe that’s cross-training a falcon tamer well enough to get by temporarily, maybe it’s knowing some freelancing knights, who knows, but something.
      Secondly, there’s rarely a good time to leave. It’s difficult for them now? Well, it’ll still be difficult a couple months from now when they hire a minion and need him trained in proper lasso use; he’s not ready to wrangle solo yet! Even further, once that minion is trained, they’d probably keep capturing more dragons, so you leaving would be difficult because it would leave them with one wrangler trying to handle too many dragons. Etc. If you wait for a “perfect time”, you’ll still be there years from now, because you can *always* come up with a reason why it’s an awkward time to leave.

      1. ceiswyn*

        Thankyou, everyone who replied, for speaking sense to me!

        You’re right; while a number of issues have made things worse, to a large extent the hole the company’s in is of its own digging.

        And good news; at the same time I decided I had to leave, I got contacted with details for another job that’s much more my sort of thing; much more autonomy in a much less structured environment. Plus they brought me a donut mid-interview. So hopefully after an uncomfortable notice period, things will start to look up!

  94. Fey*

    This is for reader LaDeeDa who wanted an update to my post last week about being contacted to have coffee by the Director of Talent Acquisition at a job that rejected me twice:

    When he asked me what I’ve been up to, I didn’t want to sound like a loser by admitting that I’m still unemployed, so I decided to lie. I said I worked at a trading firm for a couple of months. The role was supposed to be 70% Talent Acquisition – 30% Office Management but when I started, I discovered that it was really the reverse. Also, the work day was 12 hours when they said it was 9-6. These details are based on a real job that I interviewed at but eventually withdrew from. I know it’s terrible to lie, but the thought of telling him the truth was nauseating. Plus, I thought that me leaving that job after two months would explain why my LinkedIn still reflects my last employment as from one year ago.

    He remarked that it was unfortunate and that he understood. But he didn’t dwell on it and quickly changed gears. “You know how I would reframe that answer if I were you? I would mention the TA vs OM percentages were not as promised and life is short, so I left in pursuit of something that aligns more with my career goals. I would leave out the hours altogether. I don’t think it’s something the recruiter needs to know.” I proceeded to tell him that I have a tendency to ramble, which prompted him to drop some other useful gems like:

    – Keep it pithy; keep it positive.
    – People react negatively to negativity.
    – If you find yourself digressing, catch yourself quickly and say ‘having said that’ or ‘going back to your question’.
    – Always focus your answer on why you’re passionate about this job/industry.

    He made an offhand comment about how the job I applied for at his company (Talent Coordinator) was of a lower tier of TA than my full-cycle recruiting experience qualifies me for (which I knew), and told me to look out for junior recruiter positions. He mentioned looking at newly established or mid-market companies that have at least one senior person on the TA team, so I can learn from them, rather than having to navigate the waters on my own. (Which was essentially my last job and he knows that.) He asked if I’d ever considered applying at big companies like Facebook and Google and I said no because I know for sure I wouldn’t qualify. He actually advised me not to shy away from applying for Talent Sourcer positions at these sort of companies because he said my experience is relevant to TS. Huh. I never would have dreamed of it, honestly.

    He said to feel free to contact him if I need advice. Which is an offer I think I’ll take him up on! He’s a big shot at a big company (one of those companies that’s a verb, like Google, but a smidge smaller) with an insane number of years of experience in TA. And frankly, I’m in desperate need of a mentor considering my experience in TA was gained very informally, alongside a crappy, inexperienced manager who offered no guidance, was lazy, pushed all her work to me, and then took credit for my work. She wasn’t so much my manager as she was a colleague who needed a lot of managing up (but of course only playfully took my advice and in the end still did things her way, knowing I would put out the fire). Needless to say, I was very resentful and it was the main reason I was willing to leave my job without a new one lined up – perhaps foolishly. So having a very experienced person dole out relevant advice would benefit me tremedously.

    At 40 minutes in, he thanked me for coming to see him. He said he’d cleared an hour for me but his team just booked something in for him. I was internally screaming, “Nooo!” because I wasn’t done yet. That was the moment I decided to say something I’d planned to say but was waiting for the right opening. But it never came up and now our meeting was ending so just say it!, I stupidly thought. I… told him that I was surprised that he contacted me “because you already rejected me twice!” The second I said it, I was like, ‘Yucks, Fey, why did you say that?!’ But I did it say jokingly, while laughing. He responded, also laughing, “Oh, please don’t take it personally. It wasn’t my role to hire and my team decided that. Not me.” And I knew I done effed up because he literally JUST told me to keep things positive and there I was already doing the opposite! It definitely ended things on an awkward note. Ugh! Hopefully that little faux pas didn’t tarnish his overall good impression of me though.

    I actually had a video interview for a TA Associate position yesterday at a venture capital firm. It’s a meatier role than the one at the Director’s company as it’s full-cycle TA and not just locally but for the region, so it aligns with what I used to do and want to do more of, albeit with more autonomy and with a hopefully better and more experienced manager (she’s been in TA for more than 14 years), even if she’s in a timezone seven hours behind. I’ll hear back by the middle of next week so fingers crossed!

    1. LaDeeDa*

      Thanks for the update! That sounds like a really good meeting and that he is willing to be a mentor to you, and he already gave you some great advice! Good luck on the other interview — fingers crossed for you!

    2. Lilysparrow*

      I’m not saying this to bag on you, but as a point to consider.

      You’re not going to get the most useful advice from a mentor if you lie about the problems you’re having. Those sound like good tips, but if you’d told the truth, you might have gotten something more specific and relevant to your situation.

      You might also want to be prepared for how to handle it when he finds out. He may not think it’s a big deal. Or he might, and it could affect his willingness to mentor you.

      If you’re going to continue talking with him, certainly don’t bend the truth on anything else.

  95. Anon for this one*

    This is just a vent.

    We had an office shuffle recently, and I didn’t get put in the office my supervisor wanted to put me in. For work-related reasons, it made the most sense for me to be in that office. Undoubtedly. But for political/personal reasons, someone else was put there. Fine. My new office is larger and more private than the should-have-been-mine office, and it’s fine.

    However, I always run hot, and I’m often uncomfortable in my new office. Recently I’ve had to visit the person in the should-have-been-mine office a few times, and it’s always several degrees cooler than my own. And I would GLADLY trade my space and privacy for those degrees. I would have been so much happier there.

    1. valentine*

      See if they want to switch? Portable A/C?

      It could also just be that it only feels cooler compared to your office after you’ve walked there, but would feel differently if you were stationed there.

  96. Rebecca*

    Grrrr!!! Finally, finally, I might be getting someone to back me up on my work. I was supposed to start training her this week. She’s very smart, and wants to learn, and new to the office, and I think she’s a great choice. So what went wrong? Our mouthy, and sometimes nasty clerical person, that’s what went wrong. I was out of the office for a short time this week, and came back to find out our clerical was showing her how to do something, and literally blew up at her for asking a question, clerical slammed things on the desk, and was just totally inappropriate. New person said, I don’t have to put up with this, and I’ll just look for another job. Clerical was “talked to” by manager. New person is like, not gonna have this. The sad thing is, the clerical has been like this for years, and has been told multiple times about her attitude, how she treats others, etc. and she goes along for a while, it’s OK, then boom – out of the blue, another blowup, another talking to, lather rinse repeat. Further, people avoid working with her for just these reasons, although she does a good job on the tasks she’s assigned.

    I worked with the new person for an hour or so, and started out by telling her that all questions are welcome, we’ll go over things as much as she needs to in order to learn, and I will not under any circumstances yell, slam things, tell her to be quiet, or anything of the sort.

    Honestly, if she quits, I think the next person out the door should be our clerical – we can replace her with someone else with a better attitude.

      1. Fortitude Jones*

        Same. Slamming things on the desk over a question?! Her lack of impulse control is highly problematic.

    2. The Man, Becky Lynch*

      I’m glad that the new person stood her ground and hope this is the straw that breaks the camel back, meaning that the management has to terminate the clerical person. Nobody gets to treat others like that, ever. The first outburst would be their last on our ship but we’re no interested in harboring bad-vibes here, go figure!

      1. Rebecca*

        I told the new person there is NO reason to yell, nothing here is that important…and I would not ever act like that, and she can feel free to ask me anything. Ugh, I’m so upset about this!

    3. Elizabeth West*

      Yipes.
      I mean, I’ve gotten in trouble for having a ‘tude, but yeah, I deserved it. If she costs you a hire, then I say ditch her.

  97. Galwegian gooseberries*

    As the event manager (EM).prepares to leave next week for her doctors mandated birth induction (due to stress- no surprise) she continues to receive the hammer from the development director (DD).

    Earlier in the week as we went around the staff meeting table, the DD mentioned a new project partnering with a youth organization to host our program. I asked why we were starting a new program when we didn’t have full funding for our current programs throughout existing schools. I think they were announcing this topic because they knew it was being discussed by the rest of the staff. I’m assured they weren’t expecting me to question it. I also mentioned that our program staff said, during our staff retreat, they were burnt out with the current rate of work; wouldn’t this program exacerbate their burn out? the DD and ED said they wouldn’t put the program in place until they had funding… And hopefully that funding is for another staff member to run it. I asked why they were creating this new program; the DD said the funders want something new, innovative, and implied that our programs were old and boring. I asked her which funders said that and how did they know that the funders felt this way? She didn’t fully answer my question.

    The program director (PD) and her program staff member also reiterated their reluctance to significantly change aspects of a current program because particular school leadership want it a different way. the changes would be so significant it would affect the efficacy and implementation of the program and other schools who would also want to make the same changes thus diminishing the value of the program. The ED, exasperated, said they needed to put together some options for their upcoming school leadership meeting (but there’s no guarantee that the ED will defend the PD and staff members concerns).

    At the end of the staff meeting, the ED discussed culture of the organization and how she wanted transparency; if we had problems with each other we needed to address them and not let them fester. in my opinion that needs to start with the ED who needs to host fewer closed-door meetings with the DD, to openly discuss program ideas before they get too involved without specific staff input. Her attempts were weak and without concrete evidence they’ll be enforced. She’s not taking full responsibility for her own actions, as our leader, in order for us to modify our behavior knowing it’ll be reciprocated.

    EM received a particularly disturbing email from the DD, at 9 p.m. at night, with a lot of capitalized and aggressive words. For example we don’t collect the physical addresses of volunteers for golf tournament; in the past we’ve taken their email, which they use when they sign up for slots, and send them an electronic thank you. It seems to work because we have the same volunteers come back year after year. However this year the DD insisted on a handwritten thank-you which requires a physical address. This was explained to the DD, to no avail. First off, why wasn’t this address earlier in the planning, and why is it being pushed one week before the EM’s departure?

    What started as a ‘If you have it that would be nice’ from the DD has now turned into ‘You better find it or else!’ Interestingly, the ED was cc’d on all these emails and at this time doesn’t seem to have an issue with the DDs attitude or treatment. The EM printed out the email so she can talk to the ED about the way she’s being treated.

    The last two weeks for the EM has been extremely stressful with many additional tasks to close out big events that were never part of a task list before and at this time, unreasonable expectations. EM continues to knock down every new task with growing resentment and realization that she probably won’t return after her 12 weeks of maternity leave.

    Yesterday we had an office wide (7-staff) surprise baby shower for the EM, which wasn’t what she wanted. We found out about the surprise baby shower last week, inspired by the ED. We had a small staff lunch planned without the ED or DD because EM said it would cause her more stress to have them there. Unfortunately she didn’t get what she wanted not even the restaurant she wanted.

    My own annoyances and loss of trust with the ED started while ago but yesterday was quite annoying. She wanted to put out a ‘letter from the ED’ to our newsletter list. I asked her in the staff meeting if she would have her newsletter ready to go yesterday, Thursday 6th, because our monthly email goes out on the 18th. In front if staff she said she would. I was even proactive in selecting a template and putting a header together and sending it to her last week for her review. By the time I was leaving yesterday I hadn’t heard anything from her so I asked. She says she wasn’t ready, it’ll go out Tuesday 11th, a week before the monthly mail out (which is what I was trying to avoid). I was irritated as she didn’t even bother to let me know of her lapse and how it would affect my work.

    And lastly the PD has a new teaching contract 99% locked up and she will most likely leave during the summer. Odds are very high that the EM will not return either.

    2. Anne (with an “e”)*

      I have been following your weekly updates. Wow. The ED is a piece of work.

      1. Galwegian Gooseberries*

        Thanks for following :) I write it for venting purposes, but it’ll be interesting to read how these play out over the next couple of months. I need to remember my fruity pseudonyms so I can go back in copy and paste them into one big awesome story.

        This is the EDs first foray with being an executive director, but not nonprofit work. I’ve been an ED, without any staff, so I know how challenging the job can be, but it seems that she has no awareness that she needs to and how to solve the workplace climate issue.

        I get it, she’s probably irritated that professionals are having challenges with the changes and aren’t just putting their nose to the grindstone and doing their work. But when you have an aggressive new staff member whose behavior is radiating outward, and you, the ED, aren’t respecting the roles of staff = recipe for danger is high.

    3. WellRed*

      I have also been following. EM needs to get out ASAP so I hope she doesn’t come back after her leave. Any chance DD is trying to force her out, or is she just really that obnoxious and clueless?

  98. SaffyTaffy*

    I am in the process of taking over the duties of a retiring colleague. She is brilliant, highly regarded in our workplace, and a wonderful resource. The project I am working on involves the following workflow, dictated by my colleague: read a publication cover to cover looking for a keyword. Clip out the article or story containing the keyword. Scan the clipping. Print the scan. Store the printout in a 3-ring binder. Keep no electronic record of what’s been printed.
    All of these publications are available online.

    And yes, whatever advice you have, I’ve tried it. This is the workflow until the duties officially belong to me. And my goodness, it’s frustrating.

    1. anna green*

      haha omg that’s absurd. How long until she retires? Hopefully soon. Sending you patience until then!

      1. SaffyTaffy*

        anna green, the more i can convince her that her work is in good hands, the sooner she will be comfortable leaving. so i clip carefully. i scan sagaciously. i print with prudence.

    2. Syfygeek*

      Next month makes 1 year in this position, on my anniversary date I plan on emptying a lateral file cabinet drawer that is full of hanging file folders. Empty hanging file folders. She kept them there so she could hand the Big Cheese a folder if he needed it. Instead of walking to the supply closet.

      The Big Cheese is all about digital everything. He hasn’t needed a hanging file folder in the 11 months I’ve been here.
      I can send them to you for your articles?

    3. Sam Sepiol*

      But…. why?!
      Why not just keep the clipping?! And yes even that would be ridiculous.
      My sympathies!!

    4. Elizabeth West*

      Oh my gawwwwwwwwwwd.

      This reminds me of OldExjob; Bosswife wanted us to keep a hard copy of Every! Single! Shipment! Letter! Even after I transitioned the process to a database from the Excel form we had been using, thus having a comprehensive record of all shipments in one place, which I could access at any time, and that was backed up regularly by our IT department. I still had to fill up a drawer. Which filled up a storage box. Which filled up the storage area.

      When the conglomerate bought us out, Boss and Bosswife stayed on for a contracted length of time. The day after they left, I dumped ALL the papers in a fit of glee.

    5. Seven hobbits are highly effective, people*

      Are these clippings about how to best survive the coming zombie apocalypse? I can see why those would be important to have in dead-tree form after the networks go down.

      1. valentine*

        Of course, but why doesn’t printing the online version suffice?

        I also don’t see why keeping five to 10 hanging file folders at a time wouldn’t do, or why you wouldn’t put them in his cabinet so he could get it himself. Bonus if he doesn’t even have a file cabinet.

    6. Lilysparrow*

      The junior exec in a team I supported did not trust the redundant, offsite-backup automatic email archiving system that the firm had paid a squagillion dollars to implement so that it would comply with all ethical, legal, and imaginary worst-case scenario requirements.

      But, not understanding email in general or Outlook in particular, he didn’t know what he wanted instead. He wanted a duplicate paperless backup on physical media that he could access without having to pull old emails from the official archive system. (This was not against the rules, just pointless and stupid). I think maybe he wanted his own version of everything in case a colleague threw him under the bus?

      So he had me cobble together a way to export the hundreds (and in some cases, thousands) of emails in his closed files as giant PDF documents and burn them to CD’s to keep in the file drawers (which also contained printouts of all correspondence and documents deemed relevant by his superiors.)

      I told him that this process wasn’t actually supported by the software. I explained that it didn’t actually work very well – once the files got to a certain point, they’d just be truncated. And I explained that it froze my computer for hours at a time and usually crashed.

      He wanted me to do it anyway. So his file drawers are full of useless CD’s that the firm paid for months of my time to create. May he have joy of them.

    7. Miss Pantalones en Fuego*

      Imagine your joy when you can send all that stuff to be recycled and donate the binders to a local school or something.

  99. Ryan Howard’s White Suit*

    I feel like this is a dumb question, but I’m in the process of preparing for an interview in a way I never have before and it’s throwing me: should I prepare more for questions about responsibilities or qualifications and skills? Some of the responsibilities are more nebulous and don’t necessarily have experiential expectations (this is a pretty unique position in the field).

    1. NotAPirate*

      Ideally some of both. Do your experiences have any examples that show how you would be particularly qualified for the responsibilites of the job? If the job involves managing people talk about your experience as a manager or as a project lead etc. If the job requires weird software ABC talk about what similar software or ABC experience you have.

      I’d also prepare mentally some questions about the role and the company. (What would success in this position look like and how is it measured? Get a feel for the company, read up on them beforehand too).

  100. First Time Freelancer*

    Hi all– long time reader, first time poster! I’m looking to break into freelance copy editing, so far through Upwork, but I’m also in the process of putting together my own website and looking for clients independently. I’ve talked to an accountant and have been looking at resources from the Freelancers’ Union and EFA. Where else should I be looking? What do you wish you’d known when you started freelancing?

    1. Anathema Device*

      Network with other freelancers! See them as colleagues not competition. They can be a resource for you and may even recommend you for work.

      But don’t just steam in asking them to send work your way. Nobody likes that as an approach.

      1. First Time Freelancer*

        Good point! I’ve done a little bit of networking but can definitely step it up.

        1. Little Miss Cranky Pants*

          I got started by applying to every publisher I could find. Most sent an editing test and I was able to sign on with four of them pretty quickly.

          I’ve also done well by doing presentations to local writers groups. In fact, I did one Wednesday to a nearby group and have another scheduled for August. Presentations have helped me clarify and verbalize concepts important in editing and writing, and I really like how energized many participants are in workshops.

          Good luck!

  101. Me--Blargh!*

    This is preliminary and doesn’t apply to anything in particular; it’s just for informational purposes. Has anyone ever accepted a job very far away from where you live, and how the hell do you move if you have literally no money?

    Assets:
    —One car, completely paid for (must keep).
    —One dilapidated house, recently reappraised and no longer underwater but sale value likely wouldn’t net very much. It’s livable but I can do nothing beyond painting the interior (would rather not). Can include appliances. Has a new-ish water heater and a large pleasant backyard (if you leave out the neighbor’s hellish dogs barking all the time).

    And what would you say to an employer when they ask? I thought about putting essentials in storage and just moving with very few belongings and then coming back to retrieve them when I settle somewhere else. Family could possibly help with the sale, since they’re closer.

    The reason I’m asking is because I’m applying out of state. I don’t know what else to do—there isn’t anything here and no one in BiggerCity seems interested. I don’t qualify for the kinds of jobs that would offer relocation assistance. Thanks in advance for your advice.

    1. Asenath*

      I’d move with the bare minimum in clothing etc, and find something cheap (and ideally temporary) in the new place. If there’s anything to move later, perhaps family can store it for a while – cheaper than renting a storage unit. You may find that it’s not worth storing and moving your furniture – it depends of course on what you have, but the best advice I ever got regarding moving was to get rid of anything I didn’t or might not want first – moving stuff is expensive. Whether it is better to sell your house or maybe rent it out depends on your local real estate conditions. Personally, I think renting out property is hard when you’re local, and REALLY hard if you’re living somewhere else.

      1. Me--Blargh!*

        I don’t want to rent it out. It’s not in good enough condition for rentals and I can’t spend any money on it. That’s out of the question.

      2. Mockingjay*

        If you want to rent your house, talk to local rental management companies. We used one when we had to move overseas. (Some realtors offer rental service, others are standalone agencies.)

        Things to ask:
        1) Rental market: is it soft? What are comparable houses renting for? You need to be able to charge enough rent to cover your mortgage, agency fee (usually monthly), and to build a repair cushion.

        2) Copy of Management Agreement: Should spell out exactly what they do for you. They find tenants, do background checks, handle deposits and collect rents, and handle repairs, including acts of god. Ask for the list of contractors they use for repairs. Home inspections should be done at least once per year, and each time a tenant moves out. They will likely rekey the house each time tenants are changed – ask the charge. I would have the tenants responsible for cleaning while vacating.

        3) Copy of Lease. Spells out tenant obligations, including maintenance: cut grass routinely, no cars on lawn, etc. Repairs can be limited – say $100.00 and under is responsibility of tenant. Tenant should be required to get renter’s insurance and provide proof to managing agent. Also, no pets. I say this only because pet repairs can be costly, especially in older homes. [No offense to pet lovers out there.] Should explain rental period, terms of notice, and month-to-month if you want to allow that.

        Also note that property taxes are usually higher for rental properties. Check online with your city or county tax agency for the rate. You will have to maintain homeowner’s insurance.

        Meet with two or three agencies and compare services and fees. Hope this helps. It’s a lot of research, but the benefit is that you get to keep an asset and can sell at a later date when the market improves.

        1. Mockingjay*

          Sorry, I didn’t refresh the page and see that renting was not an option for you.

    2. Anonymous Educator*

      I hate to even suggest this, but we ended up putting a lot of moving costs on credit cards. I wouldn’t advise that, but if you have no money and your employer isn’t going to pay for re-location, you don’t have a lot of options.

      1. CatCat*

        Yeah, this. I moved 2,800 miles for a job, used almost the last of my money was spent on that plane ticket. Two suitcases and crashing for a few weeks on an air mattress on the floor of the studio apartment of the only person I know in the city. I ended up using my first paycheck and a credit card cash advance (warning, they are terrible because interest accrues immediately, but I didn’t have options) to put a deposit and first month’s rent on a studio of my own. I paid that cash advance off as soon as I was able. It was definitely a struggle, but I got by.

    3. the sleepiest owl*

      I’ve done three cross-country moves with very little money. The main thing that I did was “extreme konmari”, aka selling, giving away, or tossing anything that wasn’t irreplaceable or going to be necessary within the next few years, or anything that would cost more to ship than to keep.

      Amtrak has cheap shipping, if there’s a decent-sized Amtrak station at your current place and destination both. Greyhound also does cheap shipping, but I’ve heard that they tend to lose things. For fragile stuff, comparison-shop between USPS and UPS–it’s not always predictable which will be cheaper.

      Two moves ago, shipping everything I couldn’t bring myself to toss cost me about $2000. If I were doing it again, I would have sent more stuff via Amtrak and tossed a lot more things. This time I put most of my stuff into storage, and it still cost me about $500 for six medium boxes and two large checked bags. But in your case, you have a car! You can transport so much more stuff so much cheaper than via shipping. Use “will fit in my car” as your primary criteria for whether you keep or lose something.

      Sell all your furniture! If necessary, sell it at extreme discounts. If you have valuable stuff, that’s different, but I sold every piece of furniture in my house (and my AC) for like $200. If I had started earlier, I maybe could have doubled that, but maybe not. The point is, unless it’s a family heirloom or a really nice piece, just accept that you can’t afford to bring your furniture with you, and it’s probably not worth the storage.

      Also, lean on family and friends. If anyone has attic space you can use for storage, take advantage! (more than half my current stuff is in storage in my friend’s crawlspace.)

      If you gotta put stuff on credit cards, do so, but make sure new job will pay enough relative to cost of living that you can pay off the card in a month or two. Don’t let moving turn into a debt spiral.

      Remember to budget for a place to live (which usually can’t go on credit card, so you need money in the bank for it). Get a sense of the rents in the place you’re moving to, and remember that some places want 1st month rent, last month rent, and security deposit equal to another month, so 3 months rent total, all upfront. See if you can get a sublet or other short-term furnished rental for the first few months–that way you can save up for the big move-in costs, plus you won’t have to buy furniture right away!

      As for what I said in my interview when asked about relocation: *smile* “That’s no problem at all, I’d be happy to move for a job like this, and [town] seems like a great place to live!” Meanwhile I was dying inside at the thought, but that’s fine. [Town] really is a great place to live, and the move was miserable but worth it for this job.

      1. Me--Blargh!*

        That sounds like a great response, thank you. I AM eager to move; that part won’t be a lie!

        Now to just find a job that will hire me, somewhere I actually want to live. There are areas where I refuse to move, both due to their politics but also because of how those have affected or will affect their economies. I read that job growth is slowing now. That’s likely to hit those places a bit harder.

        I do look at rents before I apply to anything elsewhere. The latest job I pinged is actually in a suburb of a much bigger and more costly city. I had looked at the suburb as a place to live if I got a job in that city. On a reasonable salary, it would be doable there; probably not so much in the actual city.

        I’m probably going to have a big sale soon, just to cut stuff down beforehand. (If it will ever stop raining.) That won’t help me much on moving costs, however, since I still have bills to pay. :\

        1. periwinkle*

          Since you’ll have a car, don’t forget to check out residential areas which are a little bit further out. I live north of Seattle, which is hella expensive, but in a suburb that’s more reasonably priced. If you don’t have kids, you don’t have to pay the premium for the ‘burbs with the stellar school systems. If it means a longer commute for a year or so while you build up the money to move closer, that can be doable.

          And of course, you can post in the weekend thread for help identifying affordable but nice places to live in the high COL places (like Seattle, which seems like your kind of town).

          1. Me--Blargh!*

            Oh yeah, I do look before I apply. I look up rents, commutes (especially for SoCal), and what there is to do. A job I just applied to is actually IN a suburb, not the big expensive city close by. So there wouldn’t be a huge commute, but I could still have access to fun city stuff. If it actually happened and the job paid enough, it would be ideal. I don’t dare get my hopes up, though.

    4. Me--Blargh!*

      Thanks y’all, but I don’t have any credit cards and cannot get them because student loans.

      I might be able to store some stuff at my mum’s. If it’s a far-flung city, I could go with suitcases and stay in a small place for a while (depending on where I end up, I have no one to crash with, so it would likely be a rented room). Then maybe when I find a place, I could fly back and load up a truck and drive it back. By then maybe I’d have friends who could help me move in, lol. If I got a little money from my house sale, I could add to that as I’m working and getting paid.

      It’s damn hard to do this all alone with nobody. When I moved out west before, I knew people and had sofas to crash on, but I don’t have that now. If I end up going no farther than BiggerCity, I can stay at my mum’s short term. The problem was staying there long-term without an endpoint; it’s not feasible or healthy for me.

      Meanwhile I’ll keep praying for an unexpected windfall, lol.

      1. valentine*

        The skater you mentioned: Could you housesit for her or for one of her colleagues? Just wondering if she could help you out of your situation.

    5. Clementine*

      I did have enough money to move (and had been given a set amount that I could keep either way), but I still chose to do the move as cheaply as possible. Like another poster said, I got rid of just about everything. A few things are stored with my family. Figure out what the cost of rent+deposit+whatever fees is going to be to get a new apartment. I’m guessing that you aren’t planning to buy a home immediately in the new city. I’d also consider doing AirBnB at a cheapish place for a month while you work out what you want to do.

      I drove down one weekend with a friend in his car, and found my apartment and rented it. A couple weeks later,
      I had a different friend who came with me on a 4-hour bus ride, and we maxed out suitcases and duffel bags. Given you have a car, that may not be necessary. However, if your new location is transit-friendly, you may be able to get rid of your car too.

      Then for furnishings, I went to IKEA. You don’t need much to start, and you can add more as you get a bit of money. Don’t be embarrassed– be proud that you are making the best financial decisions for yourself and your future.

  102. MentalHealthDayInBoise*

    Not a good week at the office. We had a staffer try to commit suicide. It completely took us by surprise – we didn’t see the signs.

    Navigating getting him the accommodations he needs (and maintaining confidentiality) is exhausting for me. I can’t even imagine what he’s going through. And the toughest thing for me is – he wanted to start working again with 24 hours of his hospital release. And my HR says I have to let him work, but thankfully we compromised on him working from home until Monday. But that just feels like such NOT a good idea to me personally. But I also understand that he just wants to get back to normal as quickly as possible.

    How do you help an employee navigate such a tough situation? What should a manager do (or not do)? What should I be keeping an eye out for? Thankfully the broader team doesn’t have an inkling that he’s fighting anything more than a stubborn stomach bug at this point. But I’m afraid that when he comes back, it will be obvious that he isn’t his “normal” self and he’ll get some awkward questions that I’d like to help him circumvent.

    1. The Man, Becky Lynch*

      I’m not sure why it’s not a good idea for him to come back on his own timeline, if he wants to be there, let him be there…it’s odd to me that you talked him into working from home. Being isolated is the worst thing ever for someone in his position, he needs to keep his routine or it can drive you further off the ledge :|

      Usually there are no signs that an employer or colleague will see, you don’t know him that way! So please don’t beat yourselves up. You also cannot usually prevent this unless someone reaches out for help. I understand how exhausting it is emotionally from the outsider perspective! It’s good you feel for him and want him to be safe and healthy but you really cannot think so much into this. You just need to work with him let him know you’ll make the accommodations he needs and be supportive of his recovery. But I say you don’t try to dictate how he returns in any way shape or form unless you have cause to believe he’ll put others in harms way.

    2. Acornia*

      Here’s the thing:
      You truly don’t know what’s a good idea for him. Sitting and home and stewing about it might be far, far worse than keeping busy and getting back to his normal routine.
      You navigate by trusting that he’s doing his best, by not telling him he’s doing it wrong, by being open to adapting the plan if it turns out he’s not ready after all, and by respecting his privacy. You can’t circumvent questions without violating his privacy. And maybe he WON’T get questions, because if you were all clueless before, he’s probably good at hiding his struggles.
      Be available, be flexible, take his lead. No kid gloves needed.

    3. Wishing You Well*

      Through your HR, I think you need expert suicide counseling quickly. Don’t guess on what to do. Get qualified, certified help – again, with or through your HR.
      Sincerely, best of luck.

    4. MintLavendar*

      The main thing: ask him what you can do to help him. Be specific; ask if you can help him avoid questions, if there’s something he’d like you to communicate about why he was out, etc. Let him own those details.

    6. deesse877*

      I strongly suspect dude does not want to spend too much time alone, so it is a great kindness in itself to have him back. In other words, you’re probably already helping a lot, so don’t go into this thinking you are inadequate.

      In the short term, just keep all info on lockdown unless he explicitly requests otherwise. That’s the same as you’d do for any other health emergency, I would hope. If people ask, say you’re respecting his privacy. But I think most people would assume something like a bad breakup or a death in the family if they had a coworker suddenly look terrible, anyways, so it is probably safe and effective to let others draw their own conclusions about his demeanor.

      For the medium-to-long term, I think it’s OK for you to privately ask him how he’s doing periodically. You can privately ask how he is generally every now and then, just so he knows someone cares. Keep the conversation brief and discreet. And you can also ask specifically about thoughts of self-harm if he seems to be getting worse. Some people worry that raising the subject will move a sufferer closer to an attempt, but my understanding is that research has demonstrated that that is not the case.

      If you do find yourself in the position of asking, here is what I was told to do: if the person says “yes, I am thinking about suicide,” you follow up with “Do you have a plan?” Someone who does not have a plan is in terrible misery and may need support in general, but is probably not an immediate risk. Someone who says “yes, my plan is to do X” is in imminent danger, and you do what you can to get them evaluated by a mental health professional immediately.

  103. President Porpoise*

    ****Possible trigger****
    I overheard my coworker talking to another coworker about how her son is physically abusive to his children – or at least has been in the past. By physically abusive, I mean choking them out, throwing them across the room, etc. Her son and grandkids live across the country, and she, I know, would take the grandkids in a heartbeat and/or physically defend them (if she were present). She hasn’t alerted anybody – the kids probably wouldn’t admit is was happening to anyone else. And it was, theoretically, years ago – but I don’t know if I actually believe that, since her son has been claiming the ‘his PTSD made him choke her’, etc., and that doesn’t strike me as the sort of thing people just stop doing because they suddenly realized it was wrong. They need external intervention.

    We’ve talked a bit about this together in the past, but she always presented it as emotional abuse from the kids’ stepmother. It’s also terrible, but it’s less of an immediate threat to these kids’ life and health. I am seriously concerned for these kiddos – but I’m so far removed. I wasn’t even supposed to hear the conversation, I’m sure. Could/should I call CPS with the info that I have?

    1. Judgment day*

      I used to work in a position which was a “mandatory reporter” for child abuse, so I went through training on this multiple times. The trainings emphasized that you should always report if you have any suspicion that child abuse may be occurring. It’s not up to you to make the determination of whether or not abuse is occurring, that’s CPS’s role. Your call will not likely be enough to trigger an investigation on its own given that you don’t have direct contact with the children, but they would enter it into a file. With enough reports or serious enough reports they can decide to investigate.

      1. President Porpoise*

        Pat of the trouble is I only kind of know this guy’s name – “Jer” – could be short for many things – and I don’t know what town they live in, just the state.

    3. Anathema Device*

      and she, I know, would take the grandkids in a heartbeat and/or physically defend them

      She hasn’t alerted anybody

      Sorry to be blunt, but those statements are incompatible. She isn’t protecting them. Please PLEASE call CPS.

    4. The Man, Becky Lynch*

      If you’re aware of where he’s located, city/state you can call CPS and report what you’ve heard. They get a lot of these kinds of reports and will know if they can take action or not. Especially if their teachers have reported suspicion this would just be another document towards their case.

      Yes, it’s possible that PTSD is contributing to his violence. I have had experience with PTSD sufferers, especially those who have seen combat. However that doesn’t mean it’s excusable or the kids should be in that home, it’s an unfortunate illness that sometimes means people are in danger!!!!

  104. Bigglesworth*

    New Job Situation –

    I am a rising 3L at my law school and recently started a new full-time job at a small firm (founding attorney and his associate). I’ve been warned by multiple people that my boss is a jerk, sexist, lacks good communication, and is overall not someone people want to deal with. Just this week I saw some behavior that indicates poor anger management and already can tell that he doesn’t communicate well. I worked for several years before law school and have held three legal internships in law school, so I’m used to asking follow-up questions. This helps prevent any anger from being directed at me since I’ve done everything in my power to understand. Both the previous law clerk, the current associate, and the office manager for the building have warned me about my boss once I was hired.

    Here’s the other side, though. Both the associate and the previous law clerk don’t/didn’t work hard and are/were afraid of looking stupid. I’ve come across several issues because the prior law clerk didn’t do what he was supposed to do. The current associate likes to play phone games throughout the day and says that he’s just not in the mood. I think he’s at the BEC stage, because our boss is his best friend from law school.

    Has anyone else dealt with a similar situation? I’ve never worked at such a small company before and none of my prior bosses have had anger management issues (they’ve ether been great or completely passive and conflict avoiding). My goal is to fly under the radar for the next year, but would love any advice or read about similar situations from others to see how you all have dealt with this.

    1. LadyByTheLake*

      I think you will find that all the people who are telling you that this person is a jerk are right and that your desire to attribute the problems to the people complaining are misplaced. People who are working for a toxic jerk in a toxic environment rarely do their best. Many years ago I took a job with an attorney who everyone warned me about and initially I was like you — these other people just weren’t that bright, weren’t as hard working etc etc. No — they were right and I was an idiot to ignore them. I lasted 44 days. Here’s the other thing, associating with someone known to be a jerk will taint you for a long time, particularly if you stick it out. In my case, the fact that I left so quickly, combined with the fact that I was already an established attorney with a good reputation and the fact that I did immediate reputation damage control saved me, but I had a lot of people tell me that working there at all made them think worse of me. Try to get a different job ASAP.

      1. Bigglesworth*

        Thank you for sharing your previous experience! I don’t want it to come across that I am attributing all of my boss’s problems on others – I’ve seen his temper first hand this week (I’ve been there for around a month now). It’s just…the most I’ve heard from others is that he’s a bit of a dick with poor communication.

        To be honest, I also don’t want to start job hunting so soon. This area of law is tangentially related to what I want to do and the academic services people at my school and my legal mentors in this area told me that this job was a great opportunity. I can’t imagine how one small-firm attorney with a reputation for being a jerk would impact me in the long run. Wouldn’t the fact that I’ve had several other non-legal jobs and three legs internships with other attorneys counteract that?

      2. Ron McDon*

        Well said.

        Many years ago I worked in financial services. There were a few of us PAs who worked in a room together, all working for different execs/directors.

        One of the PAs was having trouble with her director, and threatened to leave unless the company swapped her to work for someone else. They approached me, and I very confidently said that I would be able to work successfully with him – from what I saw, I thought she was quite incompetent and made lots of mistakes, and her boss was just pulling her up on this stuff (not that I said this to anyone!).

        Turns out that boss was a gaslighter, manipulator, liar, and all-round awful person. I ended up having a nervous breakdown, going on anti-depressants and leaving without another job lined up.

        Before I left, the company did another switch around of the staff. After my replacement worked with him for about a month, she came to me and said she was sorry; she’d thought all the issues I’d had with him were my fault, but she now realised what he was like…

    2. Glomarization, Esq.*

      Well, you have the advantage that you’re going in with your eyes wide open and a good amount of information already on board. Do your work professionally, document everything, keep your head down, and use it as an opportunity to broaden the scope of areas of law that you can jump into once you’ve gotten your license. Think of the stories you’ll have at the end of the gig. Good luck!

      1. Bigglesworth*

        Thanks! I appreciate it. I haven’t been second-guessing my decision to take this job, but it’s definitely interesting working in such a small office/company. I’m sure I’ll have plenty of stories in the end.

  105. PixelFixel*

    A month ago I hired a new junior person for my team, I have four other direct reports and we’re part of a larger group of 20 or so that work on similar projects. I manage her and another employee “virtually”, as they’re in another office. Her start was delayed because of some paperwork issues, and then she became ill and we delayed her start again. She came into the office and worked two days, and then was out without notice (until we’d noticed she’d not come in yet and tracked her down) for a family emergency for the remainder of that week–and that resulted in me having to send her some very sternly worded communications put together by our HR team.

    Before she came back we had a firm conversation about communication and expectations. She’s now been finishing her training and I’d been feeling positive about the last two weeks, and then she was late this morning, and texted my senior employee that works in the same office with her to tell her of another personal emergency and that she might not be in until later in the day, and she still hasn’t contacted me.

    My firm is very compassionate and flexible about family and personal emergencies, but she’s so new that it’s creating a poor impression with the people she works with in that office and myself. I hate feeling like she’s abusing trust that she hasn’t necessarily “earned”–but am at a loss in how to communicate any more clearly that we rely on her and expect her to be in the office when she’s obligated to be here.

    Any advice?

    1. fposte*

      She was an actual no call, no show. It would have been utterly reasonable to terminate her at that point, and I suspect it was sunk costs that kept you from doing that.

      Do you know the nature of these personal emergencies? Has she officially earned PTO that’s being taken for these days, or is she just…off?

      I think you need a bullet-point conversation. Future absences must be excused, and by *you*, in email until she’s earned her PTO. Failure to request an excuse from you will result in termination, as will leave for a reason not excused by you.

      1. PixelFixel*

        Termination did come up, and if she hadn’t come in on the second Monday that’s exactly where were were at. I do know the nature of the emergencies–and they’re reasonable things for her to want to deal but not necessarily need to deal with? I don’t know her family situation well enough to know the dynamics that are putting her in a position where this is the choice she’s making.

        She’s an hourly employee and has not earned adequate PTO, so she is just not getting paid for the time she’s not worked.

        I did bullet point things in email previously, but didn’t give it teeth. I’ve planned on circling back with my HR rep on this later today.

        1. fposte*

          Unless the family emergencies are the kind with a very high chance of disappearing entirely soon, I think this is the employee she’s going to be. I’d be clear that that’s not a schedule you can continue to support.

          1. Fortitude Jones*

            Yup. Cut this one loose. Her behavior is highly unlikely to change – she lacks any sense of professional norms, and it seems like her disregard is willful.

  106. Fighting For Change*

    Please tell me about your company’s call in/late policy.

    My company takes your accrued hours when you call in (we don’t have sick time). They also penalize you on your yearly evaluation for the call in, regardless of whether it was excused or not. Ever heard of this?

    We also have a policy where you are better off calling in at the last minute rather than showing up one minute late. They would rather you not show up for the day if you hit unexpected traffic compared to showing up at 7:01am for a 7:00am start.

    ONE late destroys your performance review. You are better off calling in with ten seconds to go.

    This is wacky, right?

    1. fposte*

      The late stuff is wacky. The penalty for taking a day off is wacky, and I bet somebody could challenge that on an ADA basis. I’m not sure I understand the “accrued hours” thing–do you mean you have to take accrued vacation hours for sick time? That’s annoying but less wacky, if so.

    2. Floored*

      If I am reading this correctly, it sounds like a set-up where you get a certain amount of PTO, regardless of what it is used for. That is fairly common, but they should not be penalizing you for taking that. You’ve earned it as a benefit, and it is your right to use it no matter if it is a planned vacation day or a call-in. Some managers may be more particular if you happen to be in a job that requires coverage if you can’t be in. They might want more notice than 10 seconds before the day starts, but it sounds like that only happens when you’re running late and have to default to calling in for the day instead of being late.

      While you should honor your company’s late policy, this one just seems to have its priorities mixed up. Some offices do really care about being late, and you have to make every effort to accommodate it…leave very early, check traffic, etc. Some offices are more relaxed as long as you are getting in your hours or getting your work done (which personally I think is healthier). So when you say being late can affect your performance review, I can kind of understand that. But suggesting you call in for a whole day instead of being a minute late? That is absurd. What if your child suddenly gets sick in the morning and you have to quick take them to a family member’s house instead of daycare? What if your tire explodes and your spouse just needs to pick you up and drop you off a bit late at work? There is so much productivity lost when employees have to call in (again, it’s your right to do so) compared to running a few minutes late, so I don’t understand why that would be their default, Plus, your employees unnecessarily lose PTO which in the long term will mean they have less days to relax and truly disconnect from work.

      Overall, your office just seems to be more focused on getting every second out of their employees and leaves no room for human experiences. I’d be shocked if they don’t experience high turnover.

    3. LGC*

      …that is insane.

      I was going to ask about whether your job requires coverage (like dispatch), but that’s extreme even in that case! If you’re a fraction of a minute late, that’s WORSE than calling in? It sounds like whoever came up with that policy overcompensated for people being late – like the company that fined their employees (including the LW making $30k a year) $2 for every minute they’re late.

      I think my org’s pretty strict about attendance, and even we just do progressive discipline. (We have fired people for being late, but that was with other issues and after months of issues.) We do have to consider attendance on performance reviews, but it’s one category of six and it’s up to the manager to consider.

    4. Gumby*

      That is wacky. And counterproductive. But if that is what they want to incentivize…

      To answer your question: my company doesn’t have a call in or late policy. At all. This week I was in before 7:30 on 3 days and after 10:15 the other two. If you are guessing that traffic is awful on my commute route between 7 and 9:45 a.m. you are correct!

  107. AnonforThis*

    I’m a single mom, but when I mention that I have a kid, people just assume that I’m married (they also assume that I’m straight, but that’s another issue). Is there a good way to preempt or correct that assumption in professional situations? It’s not a horrible issue, but people get defensive/embarrassed when I correct them. They also then assume that I have an ex/there is a father out there somewhere, which is incorrect. I try to stay casual, something along the lines of “oh, I’m a single mom” when replying, and I’m wondering if there’s a better option.

    Also, how much should I hide having a child when talking with recruiters/in interviews? I’d never lie if asked directly, but should I avoid mentioning having a kid?

    1. fposte*

      A huge number of humans have kids and they find jobs just fine. You don’t have to avoid mentioning your kid; just don’t bring Junior up inappropriately.

      I think “Oh, I’m a single mom” is fine. Generally if you say it pleasantly and move on, people aren’t going to be especially defensive or embarrassed, and if somebody digs deeper, you can just repeat the phrase. You really aren’t obliged to do extra labor up front to avoid somebody misunderstanding the situation, and that will just make it weird for the less nosy people.

    2. KayEss*

      If you’re worried about negative associations with the phrase “single mom,” you could try something like “Oh, it’s just me and [kiddo], actually!”

      But it may still be awkward! If I was the other party in that conversation, I’d be embarrassed that I’d inadvertently made the assumption (which hopefully I wouldn’t have, but we all slip up sometimes) and probably awkwardly blurt out something like, “Oh, I’m sorry!” and then feel even more awkward because what I meant was “I’m sorry I made that assumption, it was shoddy of me to do so” but it came out like “how tragic it is that you aren’t married” and please god just let us move on so I can sink into the ground in peace… so having a way to gracefully move the conversation onward in its original direction or a new one would also be merciful on your part.

      1. AnonforThis*

        KatEss, that’s exactly what I’ve encountered a few times. But yeah, I don’t think there’s a way to head it off. Thanks for responding!

    3. Overeducated*

      Not sure on #1 since your response is totally fine and it just sounds like people are being weird, but on #2, I do avoid mentioning it. I’m not someone who never mentions being a mom at work, I think it’s good to see colleagues as full human beings and not just work machines, but I don’t think it belongs in an interview context because the stakes are high and there is always the possibility of unconscious bias.

    4. Lemon Zinger*

      I don’t see why you would discuss your personal life with recruiters or in interviews. It’s not relevant. Of course you can say “I’m looking for a job where my hours are standardized” and so forth, but it’s not helpful to mention family.

  108. alphabet soup*

    No question today, but just wanted to share another AAM successs story. Thanks to Alison’s fab advice on the site and in her books, I just found a new position that I’m really excited about! The duties are more of a lateral move, but it comes with great benefits, a great team, and a 70% pay increase! Thanks to Alison and the commentariat for all the great advice on the site!

  109. I Work on a Hellmouth*

    Hello from the Hellmouth! It is still Hellmouthy. I wasn’t able to really do much of an update last Friday due to general run of the mill office insanity coupled with crushing illness (some sort of lingering zombie crud coupled, apparently, with bronchitis—the bronchitis is still lingering but thank ), but we had a few new office additions! In addition to Office Temp we now also have Baby Temp (she’s super young, super bubbly, VERY TALKATIVE, and… not yet up on office norms) and That Dude Who Had the Two Hour Second Interview with Now Ex-Hell Boss showed up for what Hell Boss had said would be his first day, and corporate decided to have him fill out the new hire paperwork (no one had any contact info or even his full name, so no one knew if he would even actually show up.) That Dude is… uh, since corporate people were actually here when he showed up, I really wish they had interviewed him themselves before deciding to hire him. I know that we need people, but… he doesn’t just have zero industry experience, he has zero job experience and… is not good. He’s smirky, kind of condescending, doesn’t take directives well, he doesn’t ask questions, and… yeah, I definitely think he was expecting to take my job at some point (thanks, Hell Boss). He also has zero concept of office norms. Or phone etiquette. And I am not in a position to give the time and attention necessary to teach him the most basic skill sets (because he’s not picking them up on the first few explanations). It’s pretty obvious that Hell Boss hired him because he wouldn’t have any concept of normality (and also because he was a French major and she really enjoys telling people that she’s teaching herself French and then talking at them in bad French).

    So, I have had to work every Saturday since The Good Leasing Consultant left, which means I get a comp day off at some point during the next week. Because it has basically been just me and the temp until now, I typically have to schedule that day for whenever someone from corporate MIGHT be in with us. So I was off this past Monday when the company-wide email went out letting us know that… our company is going to cease to exist at the end of the month, and all properties are going to be handed off to one or more national companies… although no one knows which companies those will be yet. And that they expect that we’ll probably still be employed by whoever takes over. Fun! So, to recap: I currently have no manager, no experienced staff, and within a few weeks will be getting my paycheck from a yet to be determined company. Viva la Hellmouth. On one of the days when a grudging corporate overlord was here they mentioned that they actually were going to push for us to be taken over by a local company instead of a national company. The local companies here are… not good, and pay way way below industry standard, so that’s a new thing to stress about. But hey, just stressing about animal attacks, resident attacks, creepy bosses, and impossible work loads was getting really boring, so I guess I should thank them for spicing things up.

    Meanwhile, the residents have figured out that Hell Boss is gone and are trying to pull all sorts of shenanigans, the people we’ve been moving in have been true nightmares, McGruff has resurfaced and is leaving crazypants online reviews for the property claiming that Hell Boss and I are in cahoots and I should be in jail, and I am pretty sure the misogynistic maintenance supervisor is about to bounce to a new job and may not give us notice first. Yesterday we had some extreme weather (flooding, tornados that flipped over cars at a local hospital parking lot, typical End Times stuff) and neither me, That Dude, or either of the temps were able to get to the office before 10:30 due to flooded roads. The regional VP, who was visiting, was very displeased with us/thinks we were all being overly dramatic about the road conditions because she was able to drive to the office just fine (the fact that she drove in to the office an hour early and was therefore driving before the flooding actually started does not seem to be a thing she feels is noteworthy). And I had a spider materialize from out of nowhere and run down the full length of my arm the other day. So, you know, everything is pretty standard Hellmouthness. Fingers crossed on a callback from basically anyone at this point.

    1. Bee's Knees*

      You know that VP is going to go missing, right? That’s she’s just going to get sucked into a dumpster or something and disappear. C’est la Hellmouth.

      We have a couple of people similiar to Baby Temp here. One guy was going like crazy one morning, and at about 11, looked up and realized he hadn’t had his coffee yet. If I could find a way to switch him to decaf, I would.

      1. I Work on a Hellmouth*

        I don’t think I would be sad if that happened. Regional VP very clearly doesn’t want to be here (when she is) and also VERY CLEARLY dislikes me. She thinks that I should be able to do everyone’s jobs, have a completely cleaner desk, and not seem frazzled when the maintenance supervisor looms over me and yells at me in a threatening manner.

        Ooof, I just found out that Baby Temp actually doesn’t want to be here but thinks that she HAS to be/that we are somehow forcing her to work here (?????????????).

        1. Bee's Knees*

          That’s an… interesting perspective. There have been many days that I didn’t want to be at work, but I do it because I like money. Did you go through a temp agency?

          1. I Work on a Hellmouth*

            Yep! But then the corporate people told her to apply for the full time position because they want to just hire her and she is telling Awesome Temp that they are “making” her take the job. Which… no, you are not obligated to work here, Baby Temp. You do not have to take the job.

            1. EddieSherbert*

              Quite frankly, I’m shocked Bay Temp OR That Guy made it past day 1 with everything that is going on!

              1. I Work on a Hellmouth*

                If they had even the smallest bit of professional experience, I think they would probably have run screaming, to be honest.

            2. Bee's Knees*

              Yeah that’s… that’s not how it works. Flee, Baby Temp. Flee while you still can. Otherwise you turn into the girl in the horror movie that dies first.

    2. Happy Lurker*

      Thanks for the update! Continued good vibes being sent your way. It has been a very strange week for everyone I have spoken with. All 4 people :)

      Love your addition Bees. Nothing would surprise me at that place!

      1. Bee's Knees*

        Thanks! Maybe if a goose bites her, she’ll realize something’s a little off about the place. I wish geese on a lot of people. It’s very therapeutic.

      2. Bee's Knees*

        Thanks! Maybe if a goose bites her, she’ll realize something’s off about that place. I wish geese on a lot of people. It’s very therapeutic.

        1. Bee's Knees*

          Dang it. It ate my comment the first time, so I tried again and shouldn’t have. The candy bucket for an edit/delete option.

          2. Bee's Knees*

            Par for the course. Beat her back with a fly swatter and spray bottle, and go on about your day.

            1. I Work on a Hellmouth*

              That would actually be really satisfying, especially if I could yell at the same time.

      3. I Work on a Hellmouth*

        Good vibes are always welcome! Yeah, this week seems to be high on the Bizarre-o-Meter for everyone.

    3. MechanicalPencil*

      I think I’m pretty much speechless at this point. I’m officially lighting a candle and praying to whatever deity I can think of on your behalf.

      1. I Work on a Hellmouth*

        Gracias! It’s almost funny at this point. At least it explains why corporate hasn’t really seemed to care very much about the place since they fired Hell Boss, right?

    5. Jules the 3rd*

      jaw floor, as usual.

      I come here every friday in the hopes of seeing that you have a new job… It’ll happen, I hope it’s soon.

      1. I Work on a Hellmouth*

        I got derailed on applying to new places while I was down with the sickness, but have tripled my efforts since. Here’s hoping! I just put in for three good positions with the state, but their hiring process is notoriously slow.

      2. Orange You Glad*

        I also check every Friday for the day you announce your new awesome job! It WILL happen! Internet hugs to you if you want them!!

    6. Weegie*

      Oh, dear. It just gets better and better, doesn’t it? Would it be too much to ask that the new company taking you over is staffed by sensible people who know how to manage properties?

      Hope you get some good news soon…

      1. I Work on a Hellmouth*

        Even if they are, I just don’t know if this place can be salvaged, for me or in general. I honestly don’t know that I would even actually work a full two week notice at this point. The company isn’t even going to exist any more after this month, I’m never going to work in the industry again, and every single person who would know who I am are across the country in a state I will never live in.

        1. Seeking Second Childhood*

          Knowing nothing about you except what you’ve written here… I do hope you’ll watch for the elusive journalism opening that pays a living wage. Your writing is vibrant and evocative.

        2. Nerdy Library Clerk*

          I think you’re more than justified in leaving this sinking ship with no notice at all. You’ve stuck it out through more than enough bananacrackers nonsense and every time you turn around there’s some new nonsense. You are well into run screaming time.

    7. EddieSherbert*

      Okay, first off, I am so sorry that this saga is ongoing and I hope you got the heck out of there ASAP. Like today. Would be great.

      But also “But hey, just stressing about animal attacks, resident attacks, creepy bosses, and impossible work loads was getting really boring, so I guess I should thank them for spicing things up.” quite literally make me snort water out of nose. Awkward. But thanks for the laugh :)

      SENDING YOU ALL THE BEST VIBES AND WELL WISHES.

    8. Turtlewings*

      Maybe they’ll just completely shut down and have to give you unemployment/severance/something? (Man, what happens when a property management office goes under? People still live there…) I find it satisfying, in a way, that a company this catastrophically dysfunctional is going under. It is the proper way of things. They *should* drown under the weight of their own bad decisions, gosh darnit. I really hope you get bought by an actually competent company that will improve things!

      1. I Work on a Hellmouth*

        Oooof, I would actually love it if they just gave me a severance package or something! Even if the new company is competent, I am leaving ASAP and never returning to property management again (she typed as Baby Temp non-stop yapped at her, That Dude continued to do boneheaded things that he’d been told to stop doing, and the residents called in yelling about the most nonsensical things possible).

    9. Accounting Otaku*

      Here’s hoping you get a good severance package if they decide to shut down the Hellmouth so you can devote all your time to finding a better world.

    10. BadWolf*

      I don’t know if it is good or bad, but I just made myself do two tasks I’ve been avoiding all week before I could reward myself with looking for the Hellmouth update in this thread.

      Anyway, fingers crossed that you’ll get that magic call away from the Hellmouth!!!!

    11. WoodswomanWrites*

      Like others, the first thing I do when I check this site on Fridays is look for your posts to see if you have been liberated yet from the Hellmouth by a new awesome job. I don’t have any insights to offer, just adding my voice to your cheering section.

    12. Karen from Finance*

      Ooooh lordy, I was hoping this would get better after Hellboss left but it’s just getting more chaotic. Really hoping you get out soon.

      1. I Work on a Hellmouth*

        Yeah, I think she basically (intentionally) had the office (and the training on various duties, or lack thereof) set up specifically so the everything would immediately become non-functional without her. That coupled with the corporate overlords not really… caring, I guess… well, the place is basically more chaotic than a room filled with rocking chairs and drunk cats on LSD.

    14. Anne (with an “e”)*

      I have been reading your weekly updates for a long while now. I think about you often and I am sending you positive vibes. Every week I come here in hopes of reading that you have escaped the Hellmouth. Best Wishes from a random person on the internet.

    15. Troutwaxer*

      Cthulhu rose from the Hellmouth and ate your whole company. That’s impressive! Fhtagn… and stuff.

    16. Iris Eyes*

      Well, if anything ever gets hard in your life again you can always point yourself to this place and say “if I survived that, I can survive this.”

      I desperately hope that you are never again in the financial position that will require you to accept this level of abuse.

  110. Reluctant Subject Expert*

    I have agreed to be interviewed as a “talking head” in a documentary. I am typically camera/recording averse, but I expect my bit will be short, and the distribution limited. I will certainly go over things with the documentarian beforehand and will review, etc. Can anyone share tips or experiences that will help me feel more at ease or give me an idea of what to expect? Thank you!

    1. Armchair Analyst*

      Consider getting hair, makeup, clothing professionally styled. It is not TOO expensive and will help your confidence.

      1. valentine*

        Ask if they will provide makeup/hair and whether they’ll be using greenscreen or a black background (because black clothing will blend, so only your blue may show well). You might want a looser top, in case it needs to conceal a microphone battery pack. Practice being relaxed and conversational. Any noises or interruptions will necessitate repeated takes. They may use only a small bit of your full taping, depending on this and the editing in general.

    2. OperaArt*

      It helps to remember that they can do more than one take, and probably will. Multiple takes do not mean you did anything wrong. It also means that no single take is super critical. The lighting and sound will probably be set up to show you at your best. The final product should be edited to show just the best of your takes.

      1. Reluctant Subject Expert*

        Thank you both. I hadn’t thought about going the professional route, but have timed my hair cut to fall shortly beforehand. I will see what’s out there – I’m in a not-too-much makeup field so would want to make sure I still look like myself. Knowing that it’s not live is one of the reasons I decided I would do it. If I go blank it can go away!

        1. Pippa*

          Seconding the makeup suggestion. I’m also a not-much-makeup person but do the occasional on-camera thing, and the lighting used for tv/etc recording really washes you out. A metric crap-ton of makeup will look quite mild on camera – that’s why tv stations have makeup people, after all.

          Also, since you’re doing this as a subject-matter expert, you’ll probably be so focused on talking about your speciality that you won’t be as self-conscious as you expect. At least that’s how it works for me. I hate to be photographed but it turns out I’m fairly comfortable talking on camera about interesting things to an interviewer. I hope you’ll enjoy the experience!

    3. EddieSherbert*

      Buy a packet of blotting paper (which you can usually find in the makeup department of any store)! It’s great even if you’re not really someone whose face gets oily. It helps clean up the “shiny” forehead affect :)

      If they don’t tell you what to wear, try to avoid tight/small patterns, large logos, and “fluorescent” colors.
      If it’s an option (I’m not sure if this is casual wear or business professional), try to layer your clothes because you don’t know what the temperature will be in the studio. Short-sleeves (no sleeveless) and a nice jacket or cardigan or button-up etc. over it are usually pretty easy. Once you get into the studio, decide right away what you’re wearing because you may not able to change your mind halfway through.

      Plan to do several takes and don’t stress about messing up – they have SEEN IT ALL. Seriously. I have honestly had like 10 people burp on camera while recording (and we just move on, it’s no big deal, and I don’t share that information with anyone else). I personally always like to have to at least two good takes, and sometimes I think of something else I want to add halfway through recording, so getting asked to “go again” might honestly have nothing to do with your performance.

      And HAVE FUN!

      1. EddieSherbert*

        Also (getting into a pet peeve of mine) – if they don’t offer the information, feel free to ask every couple of takes if your hair/shirt is straight. I’ve had several counterparts over the years who recorded someone with fly-away hair(s) or a shirt that awkward got bunched, and no one likes seeing themselves rumpled! I’m very careful to check for those things and to reassure the talent that I have checked!

        1. Reluctant Subject Expert*

          Thanks! I’m thinking about a plain scoop neck top (not too low, of course) in a shade of blue with a black jacket. Will definitely remember to ask about hair, etc. And shall try to have fun in spite of myself.

          1. EddieSherbert*

            That sounds like a really easy outfit to work with (speaking as a videographer and video editor)! Good luck! :)

    4. Wishing You Well*

      Don’t touch your face, hair or clothing on camera. Sit up straight. If you prepare ahead of time, you’ll do better because you’ll feel confident. I’ll bet you’ll be great!

      1. EddieSherbert*

        I also think preparing helps (it helps me personally at least!), but don’t let it bother you if it all flees from you when you step in front of the camera. It happens all the time.

        Your cameraperson should also point out any fidgeting/posture concerns and help direct you. Again, they see it all the time.

        (if you haven’t noticed, my big takeaway is that the person who films is probably prepared for almost everything and your friend during this!)

    5. GT*

      Ask where to focus (usually not directly into the camera, but at the person beside it), and don’t let your eyes wander around; people who are watching will wonder what you are looking at. Make sure you have a stable chair, not one that turns, especially if you’re a fidgeter. Restate whatever question you receive as part of the answer so they can edit their voices out if they want later on. Good luck and congrats!

  111. Pinky Pie*

    So the job hunt- because of my daughter’s asthma and the general geographic environment in my field, I’m looking for a telecommute position. I got two rejections today within an hour. It’s disappointing but I have a job so I have the flexibility I need right now.

  112. The Green Lawintern*

    I’m in a five-person department consisting of me (Teapot Analyst), Coffeepot Director, Teapot Director (my boss), Teapot Exec Director (grandboss), and Teapot Coordinator (who has a lot on institutional knowledge/senioritity). Exec Director is the only one with an actual office – the rest of us are in weird half-cubicles. Naturally, a lot of informal meetings happen in ED’s office. The issue (?) is that the director and coordinator spend a LOT of time in there – sometimes it feels like half the work day. I’ve sat in on a couple of these meetings, and they feel like they’re 60% work-related, and 40% joking around/chitchat. Oftentimes the information being discussed isn’t directly relevant to me, but often gives useful context to things going on in the company at large (confidentiality is also not an issue here). Coffeepot Director has complained privately to me about how it feels like the three of them are constantly hold up in the office, and it does feel exclusionary at times – neither one of us is “invited” to these meetings, which are often impromptu, and if I need to drop by and ask a question from someone, there’s a definite “yes, and?” type of vibe when I’m done. But at the same time, I don’t NEED need the information being brought up there, and as an entry level employee, I’m frankly not going to be contributing all that much to the discussion either. Do I just need to get over myself? How do I address the issue if coffeepot director brings it up again?

    1. Psyche*

      I don’t think you should address it if the coffeepot director brings it up again. Be noncommittal in any response. There is no benefit to complaining to the coffeepot director and it sounds like you are at a lower level, so you don’t want them going to the Teapot Exec Director and saying that you feel the same way. As an entry level employee, it could look bad to complain about not being included in meetings that even you acknowledge is not directly relevant to you.

      1. valentine*

        Are you feeling this way because there are so few of you or because they are also socializing? I’d appreciate their confining all that talk to the office. They’re just doing their jobs, as you are, and maybe it feels to them as it would feel to you if they were to ask you something, then pull chairs up in your cubicle.

  113. Retail*

    Now i’m doing an OJI visit on the clock for infected poison ivy and patronizing coworker has been nice.

    I actually do have a short question for Alison that isn’t “validate me please” I do need advice.

    Anyway HR told me that sometimes we look for negativity. And he really wanted to know why “young lady” was sexist as well as patronizing.

    I also kicked my manager out of the meeting to ask about LGBT protections and he said homophobic language and actions are banned but officially our policy is “mutual respect” whatever that can mean.

      1. BookishMiss*

        If someone calls me “young lady,” I call him “old man” in return. Works relatively well.

        Note on gender: Oddly I’ve never had any woman but my mother call me young lady. Just men.

    2. NotAPirate*

      Young implies your age is relevant to the conversation. Often in the sense that since you are younger you must be less experienced less intelligent less wise. Lady is an unnecessary callout to your gender. Young lady is also something parents say to their misbehaving teenager usually in the phrase “young lady listen to me”. If you wouldnt say young gentleman or old lady or old gentleman where you say young lady (ie if you only do it to young female co-workers) then yes you are singling people out by age and gender. All that said in the south it does seem to be an awful infestation of a verbal tic.

      The HR guy was telling you that they are homophobic but doing so in such a manner that you can’t quote him on it . mutual respect read we respect those who are gay and we respect those who hate the gays for ruining everything.

      Please tell me you are job hunting. This does not sound like a good place to work.

      1. Retail*

        I actually am because while I enjoy the work a lot (okay the poison ivy and early summer humidity – yes, this is the south! – are a bit much), the pay is yikes and i honestly dislike all my main coworkers.
        He’s a sexist jerk, she has to correct everything you do, and the other woman goes off on weird rants from basic questions. “Do you want a ride with us back to the front?” “Sitting isn’t my goal in life you should know this by now and I used to weigh this and now i weigh that and blah blah blah”

        Our problem is we work where guests are sometimes but we’re not facing them. They ask us questions or kids tell us random things (complimenting my rainbow glasses thank you very much) but we’re mostly invisible even when in the way.

        Additionally, we have a no retaliation policy but he only works one on one with me. There is no mystery when he has his meeting with HR (we need both sides of the story because we all know the truth lies in the middle).

        Don’t go around saying you’re gay, maybe lose some of the rainbow stuff after June is the advice. But that’s my keychain and everyone loves my rainbow glasses so. No.

  114. El Camino*

    Feeling really defeated this week. I’m trying to leave my toxic job (major financial problems, pending merger and likely layoffs to come but no one really knows the details and it’s been months of insane stress and uncertainty – I’ve gone from a department of 4 to just myself with no intention of replacing the ones who left. Unsustainable, to say the least), and had a few interviews but the one I went to yesterday just has me feeling extra dejected.

    For one, they were pretty rigid about the scheduling – I’d taken last week off after successfully finishing a major project by myself that previously required the 4-person department I mention above, and I know it didn’t completely resolve my burnout but it did help a little to catch up on some sleep. I’d hoped to schedule this interview during that week but no luck, and so I rearranged some things in my calendar to make yesterday work.

    I sat in the waiting area for 25 minutes, and when they finally came to get me I was back in the parking lot within 15 minutes. It was clear they’d scheduled all their interviews back to back on a single day and as a result, my mid-afternoon interview in a very warm stuffy conference room was with several understandably tired individuals who clearly were just going through the motions asking perfunctory questions before rushing me out the door.

    There are other applications I’m more interested in and really hoping to hear back from so it’s not a major loss to me that this recent one might not be a fit, but man it’s not helping my mindset. Going into the office day after day, knowing that I don’t have anyone who values my/my department’s work (the CEO has told me to my face as much in the past, repeatedly), no one really talks to me all day because they’re trying to put out other fires – it’s so lonely and depressing.

    I’m incredibly grateful to have an SO and family/friends who are wonderful and supportive, and I have fun distracting things to do outside of work, but ugh some days I just want to get in my car and keep driving.

    1. Lumen*

      You also have random strangers out in the Internet who feel your frustration and defeat and are there for you, too!

      I have been there. And I’m sorry, because it is really rough. Please do not let that awful, devaluing interview experience reinforce the awful, devaluing message you’re getting at your current job. The problem is with these companies, not you. You. Deserve. Better.

      So hold onto that! Pulling for you, really.

      1. El Camino*

        Lumen, thank you for the kind words of encouragement! :) I may or may not have teared up a little, lol. This AAM community is something else, I tell ya.

    2. Restructure Hellion*

      I’m so in the same boat, except I haven’t applied or interviewed yet. But you are! Take that as a win. It’s probably worth writing off that inconsiderate company though. Do you really want to work for people who are disorganized and rude?

      1. El Camino*

        Very true – I was afraid of coming across persnickety about it but it didn’t leave me with a great impression of them. Oh well, onto the next one. I hope you find some great opportunities soon too! I will say that, even with some funky interviews, it’s nice getting back out there again and knowing employers are interested in you!

  115. LGC*

    …well, this is a lot lower stakes than the question a little above this.

    Anyway, one of my employees burps after lunch. A lot. Which would be disruptive enough on its own, but she says “excuse me” after every single one.

    She sits right next to my desk. (Less than five feet.)

    I’m pretty sure I should address this (the fact that she’s making it worse by excusing herself like ten or twenty times an hour – I’m not exaggerating), but how should I go about this? I’m thinking of saying something like, “hey, I’ve noticed that you often excuse yourself when you burp, but you don’t need to do it after every single one – I think it draws more attention to you at this point.”

    It’s a bit complicated because this has been an issue with her other deskmates (our office is VERY crowded and I have a limited ability to rearrange things), and I’m also aware that she thinks she might have IBS.

    1. fposte*

      Are you sure you should address this? I can’t tell whether you’re saying “This is bugging me and I want to ask her” or “As a manager I feel I should intervene.” I don’t think I would intervene as a manager on this one; I think the “excuse me” habit is a tough one to break, and I suspect the burps without them will annoy a few people just as much.

      If it’s bugging *you*, I think you can ask, but I’d be aware that it might be hard to change. “Hey, sometimes speech is weirdly more disruptive than regular noises–would you be game to try a blanket ‘excuse me’ rather than individual ones for body stuff when it kicks up?”

      1. LGC*

        It’s more as a “this is bugging me and I probably should say something” thing.

        Although…I was actually thinking about the letter a couple of weeks ago by the LW whose boss had gas issues! It seemed like a few people thought that given the frequency, it would have been equally distracting if she did constantly excuse herself.

        1. valentine*

          There’s no excuse for constant bodily emissions and repeatedly excusing yourself seems almost sarcastic when you’re doing nothing to stop the noise/smell.

          Either give her a post-lunch hour to be burping elsewhere or give her work to do outside for that gross, gross hour.

          1. MayLou*

            No excuse other than that sometimes people physically cannot avoid it, and are probably very embarrassed about it. I’m on medication that caused me to burp uncontrollably for about an hour after I took it for the first couple of months – thankfully a) I adjusted over time and b) I worked from home at that point, but I couldn’t do anything to stop it other than not take the medication, which would have consequences far worse than burping.

  116. Anon for this*

    I was contacted by a recruiter for the first time ever! It’s something I’m 90% sure I would not leave my job for, but I still want to find out more. What questions should I ask to make the conversation productive, and to what extent is an initial recruiter call supposed to be like a job interview, where they’re also assessing my qualifications (and thus I should prepare for it)?

    1. University of Trantor*

      Assuming this is a reputable external recruiter (and not an in-house recruiter), it will probably be a quick chat to talk a little about the position and a little about your background/experience. You should definitely know your resume/accomplishments; most of the recruiter’s questions are likely to be related to your experience and what you’re looking for in a new job (and not so much behavioral interview questions, etc.). Ultimately, the recruiter is trying to find viable candidates to send along to the employer.

      I’d advise sussing out what exactly this position entails and the compensation (if the recruiter balks, feel free to press on this or end the call, since you seem content with your current job relative to this one). External recruiters sometimes take a rather generous approach to soliciting candidates, which often results in poor matches for your skills/experience, in the sense that the position is either too senior/junior for you.

      It’s also worth seeing if this recruiter seems like someone you’d want to work with in the future, even if not for this particular position. Of external recruiters who I’ve communicated with, I’d say there’s only a few that I’d look forward to working with again and trust to be relatively ethical and forthright. The good ones are helpful to know and keep in touch with…the bad ones just consume valuable mental space in your mind.

  117. I'm not your Receptionist*

    *What is best best receptionist situation you have observed in an office?*
    I work for a multifamily apartment home developer in our corporate office which has about 150 employees. The receptionist is often fielding phone calls to various departments as well as transferring tenant calls to their specific properties (if they accidentally call us instead of their property). Instead of hiring a full-time receptionist, our office has a “usual person” to cover the front desk (one of the admins for our development department) but other admin employees around the office have to cover her every Friday so she can “do other work”, cover her lunches, cover her vacations, and cover every random meeting she has come up. It seems very inefficient as often these requests are last minute, and these other employees basically lose time doing their own jobs. I am not affected by this, but several people in my department are constantly getting pulled. We’ve expressed concern with management, but no one seems to want to go to bat for us. Is this just normal? Or if you usually see a full-time receptionist, what do they do with lunches and vacations, and what do they working on when there aren’t any calls? The only other job I had previously was for a religious organization that had to staff the front desk with volunteer.

    1. Bananatiel*

      I’ve noticed a shift in my office jobs over the ten years or so that I’ve been working that companies are moving away from receptionists to office managers/administrative assistants (or some other, similar title). They sit at the front desk and take calls and walk-ins, but they do much more than that. They handle supply orders, the care/cleaning of the office, maintain company directories and other company-wide documents, route mail, schedule appointments for key executives, etc.

      The places I’ve worked don’t see *a lot* of walk-in traffic so our admin assistants typically took a half hour lunch away from the desk and the first person after the front desk handled any stray walk-ins by default (not a huge burden). For vacations, people would rotate in and temporarily sit at the desk and just cover the phones and did their normal job at the front desk for a day.

    2. Ama*

      At my employer we do have a full-time receptionist who also takes care of general office admin stuff (like calling repairmen, ordering supplies, being the liaison to the building security when we have visitors, setting up the conference room for meetings, sorts the mail, etc.). Currently my admin is the regular lunchtime backup and helps process the donations that come in the mail (nonprofit), which I don’t love but for *reasons* I was only allowed to even have the admin position if I agreed to that arrangement. (I’d actually be more okay with it if she did desk coverage 2-3 days a week and other departments here had to chip in as well which is how it used to be until all the old people on the desk rotation got either promoted or left.) We do have a couple of people who are emergency backups in the event that receptionist or my admin is sick or takes vacation (mostly people in her direct department) — if she’s taking a vacation of several days, everyone will rotate so no one is stuck on coverage the entire time.

      It’s the best arrangement I’ve seen so far although as I mentioned I’d be happier if mine wasn’t the only non-operations department expected to provide front desk coverage. (And it actually doesn’t work out great for anyone because since we do out of office programs the backup staff has to cover my admin’s front desk duties pretty frequently.)

    3. Auntie Social*

      I recepted for quite a while. When things were quiet I would make new client packets, file, order supplies, clean the lobby area, type memos, meter the mail, prepare bank deposits. Once they saw I could do more than answer phones, lots of jobs became mine. My lunch was the same time as everyone else’s so I wasn’t isolated socially—that was nice. OTOH, some offices just turn off the phones from noon to 1. As for vacations, they would either hire a temp or a junior secretary would cover for the week or you could get other staff to cover for one day each.

    4. Lady ALF*

      We have a full time dedicated receptionist. Her first priority is to greet clients, answer the phone and direct calls. She also looks after incoming mail, in&out couriers and is our first contact for local IT things. Her break & lunch are scheduled at 1030 & noon and it is the admin team’s job (of which I’m one) to cover her breaks. We are expected to greet clients, answer the phone as well as do our regular work at the front. So we have a schedule of who is doing what when. Over the past 6 months or so, one person on the admin team has become the default person. (Quite happily, it seems and we’ve all checked in that they are ok with this) So our default person does the lion’s share of the reception coverage and the other 3 of us fill in the gaps. Vacation is the same way. If default person is available, they do it and if not, it falls to one or all of us depending on our workloads. There were many days this winter when the receptionist was sick, that we ended up having to do 3 hour shifts. The biggest way that we make sure it works is that we very regularly check in that coverage is going ok, people are happy with the schedule, etc.. Our receptionist is bad for not telling us about appointments or meetings until 5 minutes before we need to cover for her, she was really good with the admin team for a long time but once default person took over, she started that nonsense again and they won’t push back. It doesn’t happen when she knows that default person isn’t her first contact point.

    5. TechWorker*

      I’ve been a full time receptionist – our office was big enough that two of us was reasonable (lots of phone calls + lots of walk-ins) and then you’d just be busier when the other person was on break or on lunch. Our manager would also cover when need be (eg if one of us was off sick or on holiday). There wasn’t a bunch of dead time tbh but when there was we’d sometimes spend it doing admin like sorting out room bookings and otherwise it was fine for us to hang out and chat.

    6. Anon, a moose!*

      Toward the end of my reception tenure, when I needed to take time off my boss would ask me what I wanted to do about coverage… well, since they refused to make coverage a part of anyone’s job I guess I was expected to randomly beg people? Ugh.

      Before things got bad, there was kind of a schedule where designated people covered specific lunch days and another department took the phones if I was sick or on vacation, but as those people left they either weren’t replaced or their replacements didn’t have that task.

    7. Anonyby*

      I don’t know about best… But at my company, receptionists handle the phones and greeting incoming clients (including getting them water/coffee/tea), managing the conference room schedule, setting up the conference rooms, distributing mail/packages, ordering supplies/maintenance on copiers, restocking supplies (and sometimes ordering it). At some of the very small offices where they’re the only admin, they’ll also do billing for our ICs. At the larger office I’m at, ours is frequently called away to do printing/binding jobs for certain ICs, which is annoying to the rest of us admins and even some of our other ICs. She also is supposed to maintain & make copies of blank contracts we keep on hand even though we were supposed to go paperless.

      Backup is usually the higher-level admin in the office, who typically handles onboarding new ICs, billing, basic-level IT (adding printers & copiers to IC computers, getting their emails set up, some IT troubleshooting), and some marketing programs we have. If there’s an office party or other similar everyone-away-from-the-desks situation, phones get forwarded to another office for the duration.

      Now my office is huge. We actually have two backup admins (one who does onboarding/IT, and one who does marketing), though the marketing admin pretty much refuses to help. It’s frustrating, but the manager lets her get away with it. We also have two HQ admins stationed at the office (I’m one of them). We support the ICs of multiple offices in a given area in a different way than the office-specific admins and report to a manager in HQ. In actual functionality we’re the backup’s backup, since the marketing admin refuses. In many smaller offices, my team’s counterpart also does some of the function of the higher-level admin (mostly onboarding/billing/some IT/phone backup).

      It’s a very weird, complex system, and I wish the phones and front desk didn’t fall on the third- and fourth-line person so much, but it is what it is.

  118. Feline*

    I’m insured through my BigCompany employer. An emergency hospital visit meant a flood of bills, including the obligatory out-of-network provider at the in-network facility. I know this kind of thing has been all over the news and to avoid it you’re supposed to ask the provider, while you are unconscious and in the ER, whether they take your insurance. I didn’t ask (unconscious makes that difficult), so I’ve got a ridiculous bill. My insurer isn’t paying because it’s an out of network provider, but tells me to pay and they will put it toward my out of network deductible. Looking at EOBs, I see they will put about 1/5 of it toward my deductible, which is their customary rate with in network doctors. The rest is a balance bill.

    My state has a law against surprise bills under these circumstances, but no one wants to hear that from me. My benefits department patted me on the head and insisted the state law won’t apply to their plan anyhow. The health plan shrugs and says they just do what the contract says. Do any of the legal commeteriat have any idea what keywords I need to find the right kind of lawyer who can explain whether this state law applies to my situation? I don’t like lawyering up when my employer will perceive it as against them, but I’m trying to advocate for myself and need information so I can do it in an informed way.

    1. fposte*

      Oof. That sucks. If your state has a law against surprise billing, it usually has an agency to consult and a system for appeal. NY, for instance, has a whole section online (if you look for “New York surprise billing” that should get you there) and a dispute resolution process.

      Just in case it is New York–it looks like the kinds of plans exempted from the surprise billing law are “self-funded health plans (plans in which an employer provides health benefits to employees using the company’s own funds).” That can include plans in which the *handling* is outsourced to a third-party insurance, so it’s not always clear if it’s self-funded just from using it.

    2. Armchair Analyst*

      ask this in the regular open thread, not this work-related one. People will have helpful answers.

    3. The Cosmic Avenger*

      You may not even need a lawyer. Check with your state’s attorney general, or if there is is one, the insurance commissioner. They can put more pressure on the insurer (and probably the hospital, too) than most lawyers could. Well, that may depend on the state; I live in a blue state, with strong consumer protections, and strong state and local agencies to enforce them. But it’s worth a shot, because it’s definitely cheaper and probably quicker than hiring your own lawyer.

    4. CatCat*

      Look up the government agency responsible for regulating health plans in your state. Look for a contact line for consumers. This would be a good route in my state where the regulatory agency will go to bat for consumers that are having difficulty with a plan.

      Also, look at your plan documents and find the process for appealing the plan’s determinations.

    5. Arts Akimbo*

      I’m all for lawyering up when the alternative is a potential lifetime of debt. Do whatever your situation requires, and best wishes for a good outcome!

    6. The Man, Becky Lynch*

      If you get a lawyer, they’re going to go after the insurance, not your employer. Your employer should be left out of it, since they don’t get to choose what the insurance does.

      The lawyer will be able to find out if this is a self funded plan and therefore not eligible through the insurance company.

      1. BookishMiss*

        Yes. Insurance person here. Depending on your state, the insurer may have a mechanism to review/challenge the surprise bill (it’s also called a hidden provider depending on some fiddly little details), and if the insurer doesn’t, then definitely check in with your state as mentioned above.

      2. fposte*

        Honestly, I think it’ll take longer to find a lawyer who can figure out if the plan is self-funded than it would just to get plan documentation and contact the state agency.

    7. Not A Manager*

      Is the insurance company located in your same state? I live in one state, but my employer is headquartered in another state and insures in that state. I don’t think my state laws apply at all to that policy, although I could be wrong.

  119. Invisible Fish*

    What do you do when earning a higher salary would be nice, but you kind of want to take a year and coast by at the work you already do well with little effort? If you decide to put off looking for 6 months or a year, do you worry you’ll get too comfortable in that position and put off looking for too long? Or do you think you’ll know internally when you’ve “coasted” enough at work to build back up your internal reserves and will know that you’ve got what it takes to start looking, and actually do the looking?

    1. Armchair Analyst*

      Keep applying. LinkedIn and Indeed make it really easy to just send your resume. Keep coasting until you’re let go.
      Don’t ask me how I know.

      1. valentine*

        This plan sounds precarious and doomed to fail. Just the fact that you can coast, if true, for an entire year, isn’t good. If it’s a bad environment, staying will get worse, not better, and you may find yourself increasingly depleted, not replenished.

  120. Person from the Resume*

    Any suggestion on how I can describe my job – software development project manager (PM) – to friends and family. I jokingly say herding cats, but that is not helpful for them understanding context. None of them are in IT or software development, and I can’t really talk about them about specifics of my job because they just don’t get it.

    I’ve realized that I mostly don’t talk to them about my job. And I’m not talking about the really technical stuff, but I can’t vent or get advice because they don’t understand what I do. I don’t talk about my job to my parents or siblings at all. I talk a bit to my closest friends. I’ve gone through a bad time recently (gotten better), and I would actually liked to have been able to talk more about it but trying to describe the job (much less the stressful stuff) just gets me blank stares.

    I do say I’m like a general contractor building a house, but I work for the federal government and I’m really more of a COR than PM and since people don’t understand I’m finding myself unable to talk to anyone IRL about work and work stress and work problems. And I’m full time from home so I only talk to colleagues and team members via phone. And I’m the boss/manager so I can’t vent downward to the people I talk with on a day to day basis.

    1. Armchair Analyst*

      Just…. refer in generalities. You’re a project manager in IT, you have co-workers, everyone has parts of the project and it’s your job to take the parts and glue it together and keep it together.
      What do your friends and family do that they don’t understand this? Are they cave people? I think you’re underestimating the comprehension level of your peers. What is the part of work you’d like to talk about? No one wants to hear about the nitty-gritty details – I do spreadsheets and all I can say is, “I came up with this awesome formula!” No one wants to hear which tab and sheet and worksheet it all came from and how it references and the conditional formatting – they just want to hear “Yeah, I was working on this problem and solved it!” Or, “Can you believe Linda and Geraldine had a hair-pulling incident in the hall at work?!” I mean, what else are you trying to say to people?

    2. Temperance*

      I honestly probably wouldn’t even bother? If they don’t get it, they don’t get it.

      My family can’t understand my job. They think that lawyer = knows every kind of law and writes letters to demand things of people.

      1. Gumby*

        Several years ago my mother sent me a job listing to be the IT manager for a mid-size city in Los Angeles County. Like, in charge of all IT for the whole city. Because I worked at an internet company. So, clearly I could handle that job. (I managed a 3-person software QA team.) I love her for her belief in me.

        For Person from the Resume – can you find peers? If not in your own then in different agencies? Or join your local PMI chapter? My local PMI chapter has a monthly breakfast roundtable where anyone can bring up a topic for discussion which is good for getting ideas. And being a regular at those types of things might garner you new friends who understand the job.

  121. Frustrated In DC*

    Advice needed since I am told punching a co-worker is probably not the *best* choice:

    Co-worker does paralegal things for clients and bills them on a fixed-fee basis for her work.

    I edit the pre-bills and send them to our Accounting Department to be finalized.

    Co-worker does not understand/does not want to understand how the billing procedures work (she’s older and she is “set in her ways” and is also…quick triggered, regardless of whether or not she knows the full situation).

    Fixed-fee bills are generated apart from the automatically generated invoices that our Accounting Department prepares (our billing person does this, and sends them to me). I send the client invoices out. Everything is saved in our document management system.

    3 times in the past month (and more besides that in the past) clients have emailed Co-Worker about billing issues (without cc’ing me). Instead of alerting me, she will respond to them and give them incorrect information — usually apologizing for the fact that we have sent the wrong (non-fixed fee) invoices to them.

    I will find out well after she’s done this, and have to then clear up a lot of messes (because I *have* sent the correct invoices, and usually the client issues are such that could be easily fixed/explained to our client except for the fact that she makes it a Very Big Deal when it really isn’t.) So she’s telling them the wrong information.

    Over the last 4-ish years, I have asked repeatedly in person, and just a week ago, via email (again) to my entire team to please forward any client billing inquiries directly to me to handle.

    She was the first to respond last week saying “nicely put!” but then this morning, does it AGAIN and tells the client that the wrong bill was sent and did not include me on the email at all (it was not incorrect, and in this morning’s response to her and Billing Partner, I did a “per the attached email” proving this). This is frustrating me beyond all words at this point.

    1. fposte*

      I’d loop in a manager at this point; she’s regularly giving clients incorrect information and won’t respond to your requests to avoid it.

    2. H.C.*

      Do you send the client invoices out by direct mail or electronically? In either case, can you add a note or supplement memo to the invoice that all billing inquiries need to go to you (+ your phone and/or email)?

      And with co-worker, I’d be more pointed and direct with her, indicating all the reminders you’ve given about this, how she is continually ignoring that, and what needs to be done to ensure it doesn’t happen again.

      1. Frustrated In DC*

        I send the invoices out via email and within the body of each email I say:
        Dear [Client Name]
        Please find attached copies of your most recent invoices from [Firm Name] for services rendered through [timeframe].
        If you have any questions, please do not hesitate to contact me.
        Thank you,
        Frustrated In DC
        Contact Information Including phone number directly below my name

        1. Orange You Glad*

          This isn’t clear enough because “if you have any questions” isn’t the same thing to the client as “I think I got the wrong bill”. (It should be but obviously it’s not because they contact her instead of you.)

          I would include stronger language (possibly bolded and/or underlined) like, “In the unlikely event there is an error with your bill, please call XXX-XXX-XXXX.”

          And the number is your number that is, yes, the exact same as the one in your email signature. What matters is the result: they contact YOU instead of HER.

    3. Natalie*

      Over the last 4-ish years, I have asked repeatedly in person, and just a week ago, via email (again) to my entire team to please forward any client billing inquiries directly to me to handle.

      It’s not quite clear to me – have you ever spoken to her (just her) directly about how she isn’t doing this? Once someone’s ignored one or two group reminders, it’s pretty safe to assume that they, for some reason, don’t think it applies to them, so you generally have to talk to them about it explicitly.

      1. Frustrated In DC*

        She’s been spoken to directly (just her) throughout the years by me, the Billing Partner and the previous Office Administrator. It’s like she understands in the moment but then…decides to do it anyway or something.

        And, when I sent the email to my team a week ago, Co-Worker was the very first person to respond to it.

        Next week when Co-Worker is back in the office, my new Office Administrator will speak with her about this issue and a separate billing issue Co-Worker was attempting to needlessly escalate that happened to be something that Office Administrator had worked on.

        1. Natalie*

          No, I got that she responded to it, so she read it, but people frequently lack self awareness and don’t think the mass emails apply to them.

          Unfortunately it sounds like it’s a really ingrained habit for her, so I don’t know that you’ll ever get to a point where she doesn’t get out ahead of herself and do it again. If you don’t already, I might start bringing the issue to her attention every time it happens. Maybe if you are professionally annoying enough it will sink in?

          If it’s angering clients or otherwise affecting their work that’s definitely worth bringing up to a manager or kicking to a higher manager.

    4. Gumby*

      Unlikely to happen, but wouldn’t it be nice if you could put those clients on a list and then make all of her emails to them – maybe just around the billing time – be approved before the email system sends them?

      And when you reject her emails you could send her and her manager a message each time outlining exactly why it wasn’t sent to the client, what the error was, what the outcome would have been had the clients gotten this very wrong information, etc. in like big bold letters. In red. Maybe with some highlighting. (Um, my revenge fantasy may have gotten away from me a bit there…)

    5. RVA Cat*

      Oh I’m thinking she does understand, she just refuses to stay in her lane and is passive-aggressively undermining Frustrated. “Set in her ways” seems code for “we’re unwilling to manage her out so we’ll just put up with this until she retires.”

  122. Fake Old Converse Shoes (not in the US)*

    So, about helicopter parents…
    I received an email from a prestigious hospital trying to set up an interview for a job I never applied to. I mentioned it at home during dinner and my parents admitted they sent a couple of emails there, exposing lots of information I only disclose if I get to a second interview! Sadly the position is not suitable for me, so I considering ignoring the email completely.

    2. Lumen*

      Maybe reply to the email and explain that some concerned parties reached out to the hospital on your behalf without your knowledge, and you are sorry if their time was wasted as the position is not suitable for you. I would suggest doing this out of courtesy to the hospital and also for the sake of your network/reputation.

      Then tell your parents not to job-hunt for you or disclose all that information about you. That was wildly inappropriate and could damage your standing in your field.

      1. That Girl From Quinn's House*

        There are a lot of shady recruiters who will skim resumes and submit them to jobs without the applicant’s knowledge, so if you say this is what happened, they will believe you.

        1. valentine*

          People are unlikely to trust you if you say other people acted on your behalf without your consent. I wouldn’t lie about who it was, because these parents might be happy to discuss if contacted, but also because odds are the email is some version of conversefamily.

          I hope you don’t live with them and that you can stop sharing whatever they revealed.

  123. cactus lady*

    Folks who work remotely full time, I’m hoping to get some perspective. One of my parents has a serious illness and the relative who used to be able to provide some help for them passed away suddenly a couple of months ago – they are having a really hard time with it. I don’t live close by, and I’m not ready to move back to my hometown at this point, would it be feasible to work a full-time remote gig around splitting my time between my current city and theirs? I’ve worked remotely part-time but it was several years ago and only a short term thing. Has anyone done this for similar reasons, if so do you have any insight? Thanks!

        1. valentine*

          Are you in different states? That may cause a headache for your employer, who may also just want you in a single or in a particular location. If this is so you can be nearby in case of emergency and not do caregiving while you’re working, it’s the same state, and your employer doesn’t care what city you’re in, you might have a decent chance.

    2. Ryan Howard’s White Suit*

      I’m so sorry that you’re going through this. I hope things are resolved quickly and in a way that is best for your parent and you.

      I’ve worked FT remotely for almost five years, for two different organizations. In both positions what you describe would be feasible, provided the travel back and forth is not during work hours or doesn’t interfere with work stuff (and even then there’s some flexibility depending on the level of presenteeism your boss requires). Next week, for instance, I’m taking my kids to my mother’s and we’ll be at her house all week. All I need is my laptop and an internet connection.

      Good luck! Your parent is lucky to have you.

    3. Bananatiel*

      If you’re working remotely I’m not sure it matters where you’re physically located so long as you are “present” when you need to be for meetings/calls, making deadlines. Alison has talked about this before that it’s important to make sure that other responsibilities don’t creep up in your work time– i.e., you can’t care for a child and work remotely at the same time. So I think as long as you didn’t need to be taking time out of the workday (at least, extensive amounts of time) to care for your parent it would be just fine.

      1. Fortitude Jones*

        All of this. I work from home full time now, and I do work wherever and whenever I want thanks to having a company issued laptop and cell phone. As long as you’re not spending half your day on caretaking, you should be okay. If you need to spend a considerable amount of time doing that, I don’t think this will work long term since you would likely start to let things at work slip.

    4. Temperance*

      How much assistance does your parent need/want/expect? You aren’t going to be able to work from their house, if they’re needy and need a lot of assistance with tasks. Are they eligible for Medicare?

    5. Interplanet Janet*

      It depends on the position and what “provide some help” looks like.

      If you’re FT remote, it shouldn’t matter where you sit as long as you have the right infrastructure and are willing to work at the times they want you. I wouldn’t expect the employer to care at all.

      If it’s a WFH-friendly gig, it might matter more. Some jobs will allow you to work from home most of the time, but want you available, for example, for in-person staff meetings. That might be a bigger problem.

      And just like taking care of a child, you’ll want to make sure that taking care of your parent isn’t interfering with your work day. It’s sometimes hard to be honest with yourself about how much time you’re actually taking away from work, but I would definitely say if you’re imagining yourself working from your parents’ house and just helping out a little here and there with no other backup, you’ll want to be very very careful that you’re not setting yourself up for failure.

      All that said, I have taken my remote work to a vacation home for two weeks. I still needed child care, but when I was done working at the end of the day, I could go down and have a glass of wine on the deck overlooking the ocean, and I could have lunch with my kids on the beach. You just have to make sure you’re willing to protect your working hours.

    6. fhqwhgads*

      It depends? If the point of being remote is that you’d still work exactly as you normally would, but sometimes you’d be at your house and sometimes you’d be at theirs, sure.
      But if the idea is you’d be there and the primary caregiver and theoretically working around the caregiving, that’s almost never going to be kosher. It’s the same reason remote workers are generally still required to have childcare: when you’re working, you’re working; when you’re caregiving, you’re caregiving. You can’t do both at the same time.

  124. Faith*

    So, I observed a very interesting exchange yesterday that made me wonder what is the best way to handle this type of situation. I was in a meeting that had a couple of my peers and several levels of management. We were discussing the implementation of a new process that was a bit sensitive and involved multiple teams. The manager of team A was not present at the meeting (vacation), but one of his team members was there as well as his own boss (grandboss). The manager of team B made a minor suggestion about how to implement a particular aspect of the process, and the grandboss made a statement that it was a good idea. Suddenly, the subordinate (who is two levels below the grandboss) gets really huffy and says to the grandboss “Well, you can say whatever you want to say, but you are not making any decisions without manager B here”. Grandboss, who is manager B’s supervisor responded with a snarky “Well, thank you for your permission. We wouldn’t think of making any decisions with manager B”. And that was that. Honestly, I was blown away by this level of insubordination and disrespect shown to the grandboss. The tone that the employee took was just flat out rude. If you were grandboss, how would you have handled this type of behavior? For context, the grandboss is a woman, both manager B and employee are men.

    1. Faith*

      Ok, I screwed up my A’s and B’s. The employee was talking about not making a decision without the manager of team A who was absent.

    2. ArtK*

      Ouch! With that kind of response from GrandBoss, Subordinate-A should be polishing their resume. Subordinate-A was monumentally stupid and should be reprimanded by his/her manager when said manager is back.

      1. Faith*

        Subordinate A has been with the company for over 40 years. Those types of responses are very typical for him. So, I’m pretty sure he is not going anywhere.

  125. fhqwhgads*

    I have a dilemma. I’m not sure if I’m looking for advice or just commiseration.
    I had an informational interview this week; I wouldn’t even know to call it that but for this site, but essentially someone I know through my network agreed to a call so I could pick her brain on her area of expertise. It’s something I’ve got some experience in, and I’m trying to decide if careerwise I want to move more in that direction.
    I did not at all go into it trying to backdoor my way into a job. I was really just trying to get a sense of that area of our industry. After talking, I’d nearly convinced myself that, while a lot of aspects of my personality are well-suited to this area, I’m actually probably no where near ready to make the jump. Which is a bummer, because I SO want out of my current role. But I’m also miserable enough in my current role that I’m not willing to leave for just anything. I want to be reasonably confident what I move to will be a better fit for me. That’s part of why I was interested in having this call, to help me figure out what direction I want to go in. I know enough to know that “not what I’m doing now” is not a good enough answer.
    Anyway back to the call, as we’re wrapping up and I’m mostly thinking this is probably not the track for me, she told me she hired me in a heartbeat the next time she had an opening. I was not at all expecting that. In fact, I thought I’d probably shown some of my noviceness in the call, and not looked bad per se, but out of my league. I do have a reputation for being a quick study, so maybe that overrides any greenness I may have shown. (Plus…I was there to ask questions so it was probably normal that I didn’t know stuff, otherwise I wouldn’t need the call.)
    I feeling really torn now. I know obviously this isn’t a job offer and is no guarantee of one, especially not any time soon. Still it’s hard not to feel simultaneously like “ooh I should go in that direction because it’s clear light at the end of the tunnel I want out of” while also now feeling anxiety like “oh no what if they do some back and invite me to apply and it turns out I don’t want to”. I know the rational answer is if I don’t want to, I don’t want to, and that’s fine. I didn’t mislead. I wanted more info. I got more info. A possible outcome of that info was always “nevermind not for me”, but I still feel awkward and weird IF it comes up anytime soon, even though it might never come up at all.

    I feel like this was first time I ever really actually networked? So I’m possibly just overwhelmed by that in general anyway. So much cognitive dissonance.

    1. MintLavendar*

      I think you have two reasonable courses of action:

      1) Do nothing. Seriously. She might contact you directly when she’s hiring, and you can tell her then that you think the role isn’t the right match. But she might have just been being polite and won’t think twice about it when that position comes open and you don’t apply.

      2) Email her to thank her for her time, and to let her know that thanks to her insights, you’re thinking that that isn’t the direction you want to go with your career after all! Emphasize that she/her company/whatever seem really awesome, but knowing that those roles are really heavy in X just isn’t the right fit for you. Be casual about it, and effusively thankful, and it’s totally fine!

      Seriously, it’s NBD. Most networking leads to nothing anyway, but I’m sure she’d be happy to know that the conversation was really helpful to you.

  126. Crylo Ren*

    I work on a very small team of 4 managers (including myself; no people-managers). At the beginning of this week, our VP pulled every manager except myself into one-on-one meetings to tell them about a new director-level hire and an associated reorganization. I’d assume they got pulled in because they’re going to be directly affected by the reorg, but I’m feeling a little out of sorts that I’m the only manager on my team who wasn’t told *anything* about it.

    (Note, I did eventually manage to talk to someone else – not any of my manager-level colleagues – about it so I have a general idea of what’s going on. I also am aware that there are several affected people on the team who are VERY unhappy about the reorg and the general feeling of unease in our department is palpable).

    Are there any ways I can tactfully raise my concerns with my manager? The issue isn’t exactly that I don’t know about the reorg, but that I wasn’t told about it even as a heads up like, “hey, this is happening – there will be no changes to your role in particular, but you should know because this is why your coworkers are probably going to be acting a bit weird/surly for the next several weeks.”

    What’s strange to me is that my manager and I have (I think) a pretty good and open relationship, but I’m getting the feeling that the fact that I wasn’t explicitly brought in was very purposeful.

    Note, I haven’t been given any signs that there have been any issues with my performance or anything, in fact quite the opposite per my recent performance review. But in general I do have an overall feeling that my work isn’t as highly valued as the other managers on my team because my work is more behind-the-scenes. So maybe this latest thing is writing on the wall? Or maybe I’m reading too much into it? Ugh, this is so hard.

    1. fposte*

      I’d go ahead and ask. “Hey, I wasn’t in the thingy meeting and I’m a little concerned that I don’t have necessary information about the future. Could I be included in future meetings on the topic?”

      It may be just that they wanted to keep it need-to-know or, not unreasonably, thought that people should be spared meetings whenever possible, but would be happy to include you if they knew you wanted that.

  127. Silver Fig*

    What do you do when you find very different job descriptions for the same position in multiple places?

    I found a great remote opportunity on LI, then noticed the same position come through Indeed. The required skills sections are about 30% different from each other. Then, I went to the company’s own website, and their version of the job description specifies that it’s on-site only.

    It’s very, very unlikely that this company needs more than one person doing this job, so I’m 99.99% sure that all three of these are actually the same position. I’m only interested if it’s remote (like on LI) but I’m best qualified for the version that came through Indeed. The company-only version is in no way attractive or applicable.

    WWYD?

    1. Psyche*

      Is a contact listed on any of the job descriptions? I think it would best to reach out to that person and ask about the discrepancies.

  128. Super Duper Anon*

    TLDR: How do you decide when to move on when a job is not bad, but just not quite the right fit?

    After leaving a toxic job situation, I have been in my current position for a year now. There is a ton of good stuff, my manager is great and treats me like an adult, I have tons of flexibility to work from home when I need to, my commute is really short, my coworkers are great, and I got the most glowing performance review I have ever received in my life, with praise from not just my manager but other coworkers as well. Also, this job is really low stress, which after the stress of the previous job and other personal things in my life, has been really good for me. The pay, benefits, perks, and bonuses are all really great too.

    So what is the problem? This place is the biggest, and by extension the most bureaucratic company I have ever worked for. Not that it is a bad thing in itself, but I am used to working in environments where the company itself could be large, but the team making up my function was always small. This means you always had to wear many hats, help out, and were juggling multiple projects. Because of the small size, we collaborated a lot, and found processes and tools that could make our jobs more efficient so that we could deal with all the work.

    This place is the polar opposite. There are large number of workers doing the same thing I am, and they are divided up into different teams with different managers. Everyone has a very narrow focus, and while there is collaboration between the workers in your immediate team, not always a thing between teams. If I have a lower workload, and there is nothing I can take off someone’s plate in my team, I can’t help out a different one. Because of politics, our processes and tools are either non-existing, or really inefficient, which drives me crazy. Basically, the workload is not busy enough and I am bored. Because of how this company is set up, I have no influence to make any of this better. I have taken some things from my manager, but it is not enough.

    This really is a cultural fit issue, and there is not much I can do to change the company without driving myself nuts. I am planning on staying this summer for sure as I have vacations lined up, but after that….I don’t know. On the one hand, I am bored and if I stay too long, I may not be able to deal with higher workload environments again. On the other hand, all of the good stuff and people really like me!

    How do you make these kinds of decisions yourself?

    2. Spool of Lies*

      Are you me? I am in nearly the exact situation, including leaving a crappy job situation and being in my new, ultra-bureaucratic and politically fraught, boring job for about a year. Most days I read this blog and other internet things for 7.75 hours. There are very few opportunities for me to develop my own projects or work with other teams, but where possible I try to kill time by creating documentation and processes where there aren’t any (which is everywhere because there is no documentation or processes for anything we do–it’s nuts).

      So I don’t have much in the way of advice, only commiseration, and would love to hear others’ responses to this.

    3. Bananatiel*

      I’m a VERY similar situation. I didn’t realize it at the time but I was fully burnt out from my last job and it took me a few months in the new job to get back to my self. Now that I’m feeling good again– it’s feeling downright wrong to have such long stretches at work where I have very little/nothing to do. I recently had a pretty frank discussion with my boss about it and she assigned me to do some very early research on a project that will not be starting until next year so I’m feeling pretty good that she at least heard/understood my concerns and now I have something to do during downtime. Plus, I’m hoping that I can maybe use this as an opportunity to possibly help lead that project when the time comes so I have a carrot to chase now. But long term? We’ll see!

      1. Super Duper Anon*

        It feels really nice to know I am not the only one! I have a date of Sept 2020 in mind as the final endpoint unless something really changes. I have gotten as much work out of my manager as I think I am feasibly able to at this point. One of the things I was supposed to work on went in a completely different direction and now is in a prototype phase. It will be a really exciting challenge when I can actually work on it, but it is too early at this point and I have a feeling it will take a while before it gets to the point I can start. I am also up for a title promotion at some point soon, so I am trying to stick around for that as well. My main problem is that I am a really fast and efficient person, I have had to be in previous jobs, and I just can’t slow down much. So although I do have some work, it is not enough. I faffed about last month, then got worried I was getting behind, and made a list of things I needed to do. I blew through that list in a week.

        1. Fortitude Jones*

          I am very similar to you in terms of efficiency and was in a similar situation to you for 17 months until I resigned and took a new job this May. I’m much busier now and much happier. Plus, I got a significant pay increase and way better time off/benefits with this new company – it was absolutely the right choice for me to move on when I did. I say that if your project doesn’t materialize, you need to start looking. Boredom is every bit as soul killing as being stuck in a toxic environment.

    4. Mobuy*

      I think this is the time you casually job search and only leave if you find a job that is a step up in every way. It sounds like you are mildly discontented, not unhappy, so you can take your time to find a place you will be happy.

  129. Eleanor Shellstrop*

    What’s are nice, appropriate things to do to thank your boss or coworkers when you leave a workplace on good terms? I’m leaving my first professional job after a year and a half and am the most junior person there (think receptionist in a law firm). A lot of my coworkers really went above and beyond to teach me new things and include me in projects that would allow me to stretch my skills, and my manager has been a wonderful mentor. Everyone has been super kind and supportive, even now that I’m leaving.
    They are throwing me a party in the office on my last day – would it be ok to write nice cards for a few people who have made a big impact on me? Should I just send a general office-wide farewell, like other staff have done? If you’re a manager now, what would you appreciate in this situation?

    2. fposte*

      Nice cards are lovely if you’re feeling them; otherwise a general office-wide farewell is fine.

    3. mildregards*

      Nice cards are great, especially if someone is generally underappreciated (team secretary, maintenance, IT, etc) or they may not have realized what a big difference the skill-stretching project made to you. The office-wide farewell is a good touch in addition. Leaving with a note of connection makes it easier to pick up the acquaintance again later if you need to — not in a mercenary way, just in a “we ended on a pleasant memory, and so it’s a joy to hear from them years later” sort of way.

  130. Mimmy*

    Another gripe (yeah, it’s been quite the week….)

    Our agency recently found an online typing training program to supplement our existing (and very dull and outdated) program. I asked my supervisor if there’d be any training for those who may implement it; she said that the manager who found this said it should be easy to figure out (not exact words).

    Well, I started taking a look at the site yesterday and I think some training would definitely be helpful. It’s much more robust than the program I’m currently using to teach my (adult) students and I am not trained in working with educational platforms. I really do think it’ll be a good tool, but I plan on strongly recommending that somebody come in and help me, or at least allow me to sit in when (if!) they show the other technology instructors (yeah….that’s another gripe; I’m technically under the technology umbrella but I’m considered to be in a separate category in terms of reporting structure so I don’t get to attend meetings with the other instructors.)

  131. LCH*

    i’m about to offer someone a job and let someone else know they didn’t get it. if you weren’t getting the job, would you want me to tell you that the interview/resume were great, but we picked someone with slightly more experience or would you be like, oh go kick a can? rejection sucks so i don’t want to make it worse.

    1. fposte*

      I think the common response to that is “You knew how much experience I had from the start, so why did you interview me?” As somebody on the hiring manager side I know why (and of course not every applicant thinks that), but it’s a piece of information that has a high chance of frustrating the candidate. I’d stick to general “You were a strong candidate but we went another way.”

      1. Mediamaven*

        Wait, what? Knowing what level of experience someone has is only one factor in an interview or in choosing a candidate and it’s pretty common to interview multiple people with similar but varying levels of it. There is nothing wrong with telling someone that someone else had more experience – I think they would appreciate that.

        1. fposte*

          As a hiring manager, I agree with what you’re saying. What I’m telling you is that disappointed job-seekers often don’t see it that way, and there’s a high risk of making a rejection worse rather than better.

          1. LCH*

            thanks! i’d really loved this candidate. i loved them both and wish i could hire both, but i can’t so i had to pick one. basically i want to tell her she is doing everything right, but i also do not want to make the rejection worse.

            1. CameronT*

              Be honest and kind. Don’t try to protect her feelings by holding back positive feedback – that would be weird! She deserves the information, IMO. I’d prefer knowing I was incredibly close to being picked than to assume worse things about myself due to a generic rejection.

              1. LCH*

                so say something like, “while you were a strong candidate and one of the two finalists…”

  132. Not usually anon, but feeling paranoid today*

    Our tiny media company was recently acquired by a non-media company. Like most media companies, we are struggling in the face of falling advertising revenues (readership is steady). The corporate overlords have tasked us with increasing revenues by 25%. That seems high to me, but especially for a media company? Oh, and they are not investing in technology or staff or anything like that. They just want us to come up with ideas to make them $, while in return we…get to keep our jobs?

  133. Raj*

    I am customizing sexual harassment and discrimination training for our company. What non-obvious content would you include? This is for managers but I will do a similar one for employees.

    I have all the usual content but would like to include some of the maybe more borderline cases or examples that my (well-intentioned but also mostly white male) managers might not have thought of as sexual harassment/discrimination. I’d like to broaden their perspective.

    1. Lumen*

      Talk about trans, genderfluid, and non-binary folx and the extra-special forms of discrimination and harassment they face. (Should it be obvious that you don’t ask coworkers or candidates of any gender about their genitals, surgeries, or so on? Yes! Is it obvious for people who say they don’t “get” trans issues? For some reason, no!)

      Another one, to me, is the way certain people make a really heavy-handed point of things like “Now now, we can’t say things like that around Lumen! *chortle!*” They might insist they’re just being supportive (this is a lie) or that there is no way that could be considered discriminatory. But it is!

      If there is any way to teach them the difference between “chivalry” that is only ever deployed ‘for’ women, and just being courteous to everyone, that would be great. (And that being told ‘stop it with the chivalry’ does not mean ‘be extra rude to women’.)

      This is such a random pet peeve of an example, but it drives me insane when men on an elevator who are standing in front of me and should just step off the elevator *insist* on making me scoot around them and get out before they do, because “ladies first”. It’s awkward, it’s uncomfortable, it slows everyone down, and it’s purely performative nonsense based on my gender. Just get off the elevator! If you get to the next door before me, feel free to hold it open, just as I would for you! That would be a lot more courteous than forcing me around you or pointedly staring at me while you hold a door open for me, all mad that I’m not more grateful to your saintly chivalry.

      End rant. LOL

      1. ThursdaysGeek*

        And if I do get to the door before a man and hold it open for him – go through it! Don’t wait and insist I go through first anyway. I go through it when you hold it open, please do the same for me.

    2. The Ginger Ginger*

      You may have already included it, but I don’t think enough people (especially new to work-force) understand that it doesn’t have to be targeted “flirting” or contact with someone in the office. It can also be talking about non-targeted sex-focues conversations and the like.

      1. BookishMiss*

        Foremost in my mind right now, on that note, is “don’t ask the trainer when you get to learn about the birds and the bees, especially when she’s standing right next to the male trainer and you were obviously asking only her, and it is a topic entirely unrelated to what’s being trained” or “don’t treat your two trainers differently because one’s plumbing matches yours and the other’s doesn’t.” And then don’t excuse your misbehavior by saying your prior job was just four men in a room all day so it was like a locker room.
        There’s also being careful of endearments and double entendres – young lady and meatballs spring to mind most readily, respectively. Commenting on people’s bodies, relationship status, number of children, hobbies, too, especially in conjunction with any complaints about their work or gossipy backbiting.

    3. Acornia*

      My most recent sexual harassment training covered what it is, and how to report it, but never, ever actually said DON’T DO IT.
      Seriously the entire thing was directed towards how to recognize it and report it, not how to avoid it in the first place. It very much felt like “This is unavoidable, so here’s how you can report it.” instead of “Here’s how we can create a healthier work place.”
      Some thoughts:
      Nothing is ever “just a joke” – don’t even try to use that lame excuse
      “Chivalry” in the work place is not a good thing, so don’t force women to be gracious about your insistence on it
      Don’t be patronizing, don’t mansplain, don’t talk over women, don’t expect the women to be the party planners and coffee getters, etc. And don’t let others do it too. If Anna speaks up with an idea in a meeting, and Bob interrupts her to say he loves the idea and wants to run with it, make darn sure Anna gets credit for the idea. Maybe that’s not directly sexual harassment, but that kind of thing DOES contribute to a culture where harassment thrives.
      I’d love to see trainings that are about building a culture of respect rather than reacting to disrespect. THAT is the core issue.

      1. Lumen*

        I love Acornia’s post above so I’m jumping in again.

        It’s so true that (like anti-rape campaign posters on college campuses) the focus tends to be on what victims need to do, not on telling people DON’T DO THIS.

        And there’s not enough focus on “what to do instead”:

        Don’t be patronizing, don’t mansplain = what if you assumed that your female coworkers know just as much *and maybe even more* than you do about a topic? Just imagine!

        Don’t talk over women = what if you just listened carefully while women spoke and waited your turn? (Seems obvious and yet…)

        Don’t expect women to be the party planners and coffee getters = volunteer for party planning and coffee getting. Volunteer for the less-exciting tasks. Because this has been researched; we know you’ll do it when you’re in a male-only environment, but stop doing it as soon as there’s a woman there to ‘pick up the grunt work’ that you don’t feel like doing. So volunteer.

        And no. “It was just a joke” has been deeply, thoroughly, incisively debunked. Try “That was inappropriate and I’m sorry. It will not happen again.” instead.

    4. No Tribble At All*

      No introducing people as the diversity hire :(
      Make sure there’s a clean women’s bathrom with a trash can with a trash bag
      Make sure the Token Lady isn’t the one who always cleans up, organizes parties, etc.

    5. techPerson*

      My employer has an example case study where a lesbian who wasn’t out at work gets seen outside of work by another employee and therefore gets outed at work and harassed (by a separate person). I like that it emphasized 1) that outing someone who is not out at work is not acceptable, even if you don’t intend for it to be malicious and 2) Religious freedom does not allow you to harass other protected groups.

      1. pharmacat*

        Please explain the concept of microaggessions. It’s not that women are sensitive, or it’s too PC, or you just cant say anything any more. We’re just exhausted from dealing with all the non job-related BS forever. Whatever they’re saying, we’ve heard it all before.

        My other topic that I think deserves more attention is how men man spread in the conversational space and choose the topic of public discourse. Like of course they get to dictate that we’ll start off the meeting with a football recap. For context, this example- I went to a social breakfast with a couples group. Several women started talking about crafts, and the men lost it. Started loudly protesting. Seriously. So I called them on it, and asked why we had to get their approval for our topics, where they could just talk about whatever.

    6. Policy Wonk*

      Have an alphabetical rotation for certain chores, vice assigning them ad hoc – e.g., everyone is assigned a certain week to take notes in the staff meeting, rather than the default to asking Mary to take notes. Suggest they consider internally switching the gender to see if it works before making a comment. If you wouldn’t comment on Mike’s new suit or haircut, don’t comment on Mary’s. Don’t make decisions for your employees – ask them. (One of the worst in my case was a boss asking a male peer to make a trip that fell in my portfolio. He asked why I wasn’t doing the trip – “oh, she has kids so I don’t think she wants to travel.” He never asked me. Fortunately my colleague gave me a heads up and I gave the boss a polite earful.)

    7. Gumby*

      People legitimately hold the completely harebrained idea that men can’t be sexually harassed, or women can’t do the harassing. That’s obviously wrong. But so much about this training should be obvious so…

      Also? Do not bring in a cake like that one on Cake Wrecks. No matter how tempting it is.

  134. Showing Skin*

    I have a low stakes question that I’m probably overthinking, but I’d still appreciate some opinions. For the first time my company is hosting a company BBQ. It will be in July so definitely shorts and tank top weather. This is clothing I’d wear normally but I’m a little hesitant showing that much skin in front of coworkers. I’m one of the youngest people in my company, and while there are other women, in my department I’m the only one. Am I overthinking this? Do you think it’s fine and totally normal to wear shorts and a tank top? Any advice/suggestions is much appreciated!

    1. Silver Fig*

      Tweak it a bit, with long Bermuda shorts and something cap sleeved.

      I personally would start smoking if I had that much flesh in sunlight, so I’d be the weird lady in a giant straw hat and Jackie O sunglasses.

    2. Bunny Girl*

      I don’t think you’re overthinking it at all! It’s fine to not want your coworkers to see more of you than they normally do. I struggle with this too because I’m one of the youngest in my rather old-fashioned department and I’m pretty heavily tattooed. I think it would be totally fine though to dress to your comfort level. Just maybe don’t wear Daisy Dukes and a low cut spaghetti strap top? That’s all I can think of. No one will expect you to show up to a company BBQ in a full suit.

    3. LGC*

      Is it during work hours? I think that affects things – I’d skew more towards what you’d wear on a casual Friday in that case.

      Also, I think it depends on how the shorts and tank top are cut – although if you’re asking if they’re inappropriate you probably wouldn’t wear extremely short cutoffs (like with the pockets hanging out of the lower hem) or an especially revealing tank to begin with.

      Have fun, and hopefully you ARE overthinking things!

    4. MechanicalPencil*

      I think long shorts and any sort of wide strap tank or cap sleeve shirt is perfectly fine. Nothing that screams you’re having a wild day at the pool or anything, but more that you’re spending a day with grandma and your favorite aunties at their church picnic.

    5. CheeryO*

      I would do shorts (they don’t have to be Bermuda, but don’t wear anything too skimpy or distressed) and a nicer t-shirt or sleeveless top. You could also do a casual skirt, if you have something like that.

    6. Spool of Lies*

      Would you consider a maxi/midi dress? I am a huge fan of what I call “shapeless sacks” during the hotter months at work. It’s a good way to be well-covered but not overheated.

      1. Bananatiel*

        I was going to suggest an airy but modest casual dress! That’s usually what I go for at company BBQs. Of course if OP is not into dresses I think the suggestions above are great, too.

      2. Bunny Girl*

        Oh I never thought of a dress for some reason! I just bought one on Amazon that I think would be perfect for something like this. It’s a vintage style tea dress that hits about at the knee, and is just buttoned up enough to be appropriate for work, but also cute and comfortable enough that it would work during a hot day.

    7. Policy Wonk*

      I would wear a skort and more dressy t-shirt. Not the shorts/tank for the reasons you cite. Not a dress or skirt because a BBQ may mean sitting on blankets on the ground or could include volleyball or softball or other games that would be difficult in a dress (so also consider footwear, like maybe Toms slip-ons.)

    8. Retail*

      My professional shorts rule is “are my thighs rubbing? Will i feel uncomfortable?” And a lot of people at my job roll their sleeves up (too hot and don’t want that farmers tan!).

      My professional tank top rule goes to the neckline. Is everything covered? Are you showing more than usual of your chest, not necessarily your arms.

  135. Dobermom*

    This past weekend, my VP went on vacation with his (male) subordinate and their significant others. I expressed my displeasure about this to some coworkers, and the few I spoke to agreed that it was unprofessional. Our whole leadership team is men, and they are all friends with one another both in and out of the office.

    The fact that I had vocalized my opinion about the subject got back to my VP (I should note that he and I have had an otherwise positive relationship for the past five years), and he sent me a message on Slack saying, “If you don’t like what I do outside the office, then tell me to my face. Don’t spread it on the floor.” I then went to his office, where he proceeded to essentially scold me like I was a child and didn’t take my concerns about the perception of his leadership team seriously.

    At that point, I went down to HR and discussed the issue with someone there. She took all the info down, and said she’d act on it if I wanted her to, but recommended I take some time to think about it.

    I went home for the day, because work just wasn’t going to happen after that.

    The next day, my immediate supervisor called a meeting with me to discuss what had me so upset. He was actually very receptive to what I had to say! He was a little taken aback at the perception of the leadership team by the employees (he’s actually a good guy, and does treat his team fairly). I left that meeting feeling better, but I doubt anything will really change.

    In fact, I don’t even know what I want to change… I just think it looks bad for a VP to be so friendly with his subordinates and for vacation pics to pop up on social media.

    I’m trying to weigh the pros/cons for me of having HR act on my report.

    1. Lumen*

      In my opinion, the VP overreacted with the Slack message and the scolding he gave you. He could have easily ignored this and then addressed it if it became a habit or pattern on your part. His defensiveness about it is, to my mind, rather telling.

      But: I would let this go, at least for now. This is total speculation, but I could see him making your life difficult even if you don’t escalate it with HR. The good thing is that you spoke with HR about it, so there’s a record of it. If he continues to favor certain friendployees or is hostile towards you and you need to run this up the line again, no one can ask “well if this was a problem before why didn’t you say anything earlier?”

    2. Maya Elena*

      I wouldn’t ask HR to “act on it”, definitely not in a gender context – especially if nobody else but you complained and no violation of policy has occurred. If he really is a good guy who treats his team fairly, then that should be the main consideration, and the bad optics secondary.

      Also, what kind of action are you expecting from HR? A private “hey, don’t make your friendship with subordinates so obvious”? Training on being friends with subordinates? An investigation for evidence of gender discrimination? Implicit bias training? Summary dismissal? Most of these will likely be viewed as humiliating, time-consuming, and unfair, which on balance I think they are, and will not generate goodwill or advance the cause of equity in the workplace.

      1. Dobermom*

        To clarify, my supervisor who is a “good guy” is not the VP in this case – the VP is a level up from my supervisor.

        Though I do agree with your points, here.

        1. valentine*

          Knowing the friendships aren’t going to end, what’s your objective? (I assume you don’t really want them to hide their friendships because, if its costing you, that would only cost you more and be even more difficult to defend against). Do you want to be included? I don’t see why the VP would invite you somewhere he’s going with his direct report, who’s possibly at least one level above you. Are you the only woman or the only woman at your level? How is the all-male socializing hurting your career?

          You hurt your good relationship with the VP by calling him unprofessional behind his back and being a source of gossip. Leaving for the day and being upset enough that your supervisor could tell further paint you in a bad light.

          I think you’re idealizing your supervisor, especially if he’s part of the ol’ boy network, but your next step may best begin with him. Be clear about what you want, though, and be sure it’s reasonable to request.

  136. Anon for This*

    What to you do when the person in charge of your company is incompetent?

    I don’t mean, “I disagree with their decisions” or “I think this could’ve been handled better” but like, the literal embodiment of the Peter Principle? This person was born into significant privilege and just happened to stick around at a place for a long enough time that they were elevated to the highest job role in the company. They cannot write emails by themselves. They cannot dial a phone. They refuse to make decisions of any kind, change their mind based on the last person who spoke with them and their primary concern is everyone ‘getting along’. They have no business acumen whatsoever, and little-to-no knowledge of the broader industry and how things work. They do what many people do when they don’t know how to be authoritative, they focus on minutiae that is below their role because it seems manageable. They not only lack leadership capabilities, they lack basic managerial skills. They are embarrassing in meetings with other people at their level and their very existence at the top of the org chart tarnishes the company’s reputation. They’re nice and kind-hearted, though? Great at talking points? Really care about the company but not self-reflective enough to see the damage they cause it? That’s all I’ve got.

    This does not seem fixable to me, but the company is full of smart, competent, dedicated people who have kept it alive in spite of this person, not because of them. The company does and provides great and very needed things. Is there anything that can be done besides jumping ship (which none of us really want to do)? They’re extremely insecure, which makes them whiny, paranoid and opaque. They control all flow of information to anyone who could do something about it, and staff have experienced retaliation for flagging issues in the past. There has been positive movement within the company, but I fear that as long as this person is in charge, even our best efforts are doomed to fail.

    What do you think AAM commentariat? How do you handle something you know could be amazing if it weren’t for this one (very consequential) person?

    1. Bananatiel*

      So I ultimately left a company over this, but in the intervening period where I wasn’t sure if I needed to leave or not I created all sorts of crazy workarounds… so, it can kind of be done? My boss, who had been with the company forever and just loved to control and manipulate situations when people “slighted” her creating a similar information block. At a certain point, I think she decided she’d had enough of me and was trying to edge me out by virtue of cutting information off that I needed to do my job.

      For the better part of two years I basically straight up lied to get the information I needed to do my job– “Oh, [boss] asked me to touch base with you so I can get started on project x.” and while my boss eventually backed off when she realized that no one wanted to play her games and people were happy to repeat information to me, her attitude made my life so stressful overall I started looking for better opportunities and luckily found one within months.

    2. TechWorker*

      For me having faith in leadership is one of the most important things about being happy in a role. So I think if there were leaders between me and the incompetent person who acknowledged the situation, and had for some reason to handle it that might be doable, but otherwise I’d be looking to leave.

  137. TGI Friday*

    My manager is obsessed with her upcoming wedding to the point where she hardly does any work. She can’t stop talking about it. She got engaged in September and according to her the proposal was a complete surprise so she was understandly excited. We all thought the excitement would wear off after a week or two but it’s only gotten worse. I’m so sick of hearing about dresses, invitations, flowers and how she can’t wait to have be a wife and have a wife. Her avatar in outlook is a photo of the engagement ring. Her manager and the other executives are friends or family friends so they don’t care about the wedding talk and they aren’t around her all day. She thinks we are just envious because all of us who report to her are single, unattached and don’t have kids. She goes on about how cute their kids will be too. She has a countdown posted in the office and we are all painfully aware of it. Gah. I am so glad it is Friday and I can escape wedding talk for the weekend. We are all buried in work because of it. Only 293 days to go..

    1. Bunny Girl*

      God this is the worst. I had a manager who would follow me around the store for hours detailing all about her pregnancy. To make it worse, I was having an uphill battle at the time trying to get a hysterectomy because of a host of medical problems because all the doctors in the conservative state that I lived in thought I would want to have thousands of babies later and would regret it so I just really wasn’t in the mood to hear about someone else’s little miracle.
      Try grey rocking her and changing the subject? Again, I’m sorry.

    2. EddieSherbert*

      293 days?!?! Oh my gosh. That would drive me nuts as well (especially since the wedding isn’t soon – which would mean the talk will stop soon).

      I also agree with changing the subject. Or replying blandly and changing the subject. Since she probably wants you to get excited with her, try to avoid positive noises like “neat” and “great”. Stick with Hmm, Huh, Alright, Okay.

      I think you can try something like “Manager, I’m excited for you, but I’d really like to discuss Project right now.”

      P.S. I just got married in the spring, and am thrilled people are FINALLY talking to me about literally anything except wedding stuff. Every family/work event for the past 1.5 years… that’s all I heard. My husband would get questions about his job and interests and TV shows and hobbies. Not me – just the wedding. *heavy eyeroll*

    3. LGC*

      She sounds like my best friend except ten times worse. And she’s not getting married for another YEAR?!

      So, the part of this that you can escalate is that she’s not doing her job – if she’s drooping the ball on her tasks, that’s a problem that even her friends in high places should be concerned with. (They might not be, but they SHOULD.) Other than that…yeah, deflect, because it sounds like being direct will just get you dismissed.

  138. TheRedCoat*

    What’s an interview-y way to say “my commute is shitty and my company has realized that they can keep giving more complex work and save money on a promotion/raise?”

    1. fposte*

      “I’m tiring of the long commute” and/or “I like the current job, but there’s not much future for me there.” Obviously save the first for times where the new job has an obviously shorter commute than the old.

    2. Semaj*

      Just say you’re looking for something with a more reasonable commute, that’s super understandable and while it would feel satisfying to say the other piece I think it falls too closely into the ‘don’t trash talk your current position’ ground.

    3. Armchair Analyst*

      “I’m looking to move for better opportunities where I can feel more valued, and also a reduced commute.”

    4. TheRedCoat*

      You all rock! I used “While I love the work that I do, my commute has become unsustainable”, and they seemed to really dig that answer.

      On to round 2!

    5. The Man, Becky Lynch*

      “I’m looking for something closer to home, I commute (45 minutes each way) each day, it’s wearing me out.”

      Any time you can spin it as “it’s not my employer, it’s never my employer”, the better you are! I got to use this and wanting work/life balance [from a previous 60hr per week setup], totally blew right past the “and my employer is possibly related to Satan himself.” ;)

  139. Environmental Compliance*

    I have been a People Manager for about two weeks. I have one direct report. At Day 2, following sitting down and going over expectations with them (with their previous manager there too! and all of it was ran through HR first), Direct Report (DR) went and complained to their previous manager that I am mean, rude, and nasty. The expectations were things like…show up on time for shift, notify me if you are late/needing a sick day in a timely fashion, keep your area clean. I am not asking for handsprings or backflips.

    Day 9, DR is over an hour late to their shift, with no notifications to anyone, two days in a row. This position is based on coverage, not tasks (operations of a piece of machinery that runs 24/7 – someone always needs to be there). I go talk to my manager for proper procedure, send everything through HR, and write up DR (with HR on the phone). HR has to interrupt DR twice to tell them that no, being on time is a very basic expectation, it is a fact that they were not on time, and that is not okay – it is not favoritism or singling anyone out that they were late. DR is now complaining to apparently anyone that listens that I am (still) mean rude and nasty, and that if this keeps on, they are just going to have to quit.

    Dude, I dunno what else you want from me. We *need* coverage on this machinery (without going into too much detail, this is a control unit for pollution prevention on a waste stream, and lack of coverage gets real close to lack of compliance with regulations). You *need* to be on time for your scheduled shift, not waltzing in and out when you feel like it. If you want a job where you can do that, you’re going to need to find a different position.

    1. WellRed*

      I feel like there is some context missing. Is there a reason you felt you needed to sit down on day 2 to go over basic workplace stuff? Was the person a problem employee already? Did you get promoted over them?

      1. Environmental Compliance*

        No promotions over them – but a prior history of not showing up, not following general SOPs (leading to noncompliance events), suspected falsification of reports. Prior managers refused to touch this person because generally when they would sit this person down and say hey, you can’t show up whenever, this person would go to HR and claim racism. This was with a different HR management company who did no investigation, and would threaten to fire the managers.

        Now we have a new HR company who actually does investigation, has procedures for disciplinary action, and is actually quite good, and they are helping me a ton with trying to get this person back on track.

    2. Gumby*

      Was DR like this w/ previous manager? I see 2 possibilities: DR is testing the new manager to see if there is more leeway than there was in the past or DR’s previous manager was lax and having a new manager who cares is a shock to the system.

      1. Environmental Compliance*

        Oh, 100%. I am trying to get someone to change out of a years-long “I do what I want” mindset. Prior managers for this person however were also older men, and now this person has to report to a younger woman, which I don’t think is helping either (based on their complaints to nearly anyone they see, which circulate back to me).

  140. elfkey*

    I recently interviewed with a company and after the interview figured out I’m no longer interested. Do I let them know I’m not interested before an offer is made, or do I wait and see if they’re even interested in me?

    1. fposte*

      If you know you wouldn’t take the job if offered, let them know; it’s a kindness to the other candidates (they’ll never know you did it, but you’ll know).

  141. Marketer in So Cal*

    Is it OK to refer to a layoff on a resume if you took on a lot of responsibility after a company re-org? I joined a team as a junior member, and a few months later the team went through a layoff. One of the senior members of my team was laid off, and the majority of her duties went to me. I’d like to call out on my resume that I was working on higher level projects than is typical for my position. Here’s how it’s listed now — I have a few bullet points with accomplishments & highlights from my role, then the last bullet in the section refers to the layoff.

    Teapot Marketing Manager, Teapots Inc., 20XX – 20XX
    — Blah blah
    — Blah blah
    — Assumed duties of Senior Teapot Marketing Manager following company restructuring

    1. BRR*

      I would just list the accomplishments as you usually would. I find it kind of awkward to read about taking over another person’s duties.

    2. The Man, Becky Lynch*

      I wouldn’t put it in the resume. This is something however to add in your cover letter or in an interview though. Since it’s something that’s interesting/shows you are able to absorb duties as needed.

  142. Amyiriel*

    Just some weird job searching stuff I experienced the last couple of weeks:
    Applied to a job on indeed and automatically got an email with a bunch of interview-y questions, except for the last one, which was, “do you like Thai food?”. This position wasn’t at a restaurant or anything similar.
    Last week I saw a job coach position ad that wanted you to be kind of a mentor for a couple of developmentally disabled people for $12 per hour. (I’m in California.) I keep seeing that or similar ads every few months. I kind of wondered if an organization that has similar goals was paying that low for employees, since I tried to see if they could help me with anything (I am mildly autistic), but they basically oversold what they offered, and overheard one of the employees badmouthing a client and hang out with work friends all day when I was on a trial day to see if I liked the program that was their main thing. I know those type of organizations are underfunded, but geez.

  143. Anon for this one*

    Wow this is a big thread! Does anyone work in-house in the general counsel’s office of a university? I just applied for such a job and I’m looking for more info so I’m prepared if I get an interview. I’m in my 10th year of practice currently working at a small firm where I manage my own caseload.

  144. AnonyAnon*

    How do you handle needing a break for lunch when everyone else on a project is just skipping lunch?

    1. fposte*

      Is it the break or the lunch? “Sorry, I’ll be no good for work if I skip lunch, so I’ll just be 15 minutes getting something. Are people okay with my eating in here? Does anybody else want something?”

      1. AnonyAnon*

        Ideally I’d like the break to eat lunch, it’s weird to be the only one eating in the room and I dislike crumbs all over my work stuff.

        1. Not usually anon, but feeling paranoid today*

          Take your break and eat your lunch proudly.

          1. TechWorker*

            +1 working through lunch is not healthy and does not help your focus anyway. There may well be others who would prefer to take a break and feel peer-pressured into staying. I’d just cheerfully say ‘back in half an hour!’ (Or 20min if you feel that’s all you can get away with) – I doubt anyone will stop you – they may also assume you’re going to a different meeting which is silly but not your problem!

    2. LDN Layabout*

      Is this a skipping lunch because people have brought lunch and are eating while working/the project has provided catering or do you work with robots?

        1. LDN Layabout*

          In that case:

          If it’s a short term project (and by short term I mean A DAY) with a fixed deadline where you know you’ll be working until that deadline? I would eat at my desk and be a very grumpy bunny when I got home. (I did this once a month for several years at an old job and it was annoying but my efforts were valued).

          If it’s a longer project, I’d carve out that time and state that you work better for having a break and stick to it unless it’s an emergency.

  145. Ada*

    So earlier this week I applied to a second position at a company where I recently interviewed and was rejected. Figured it couldn’t hurt to try, especially since I’m a long distance candidate who got to a second round of interviewing. Seems just as likely to me that I lost out due to the distance as to fit.

    Anyway, I just realized I never got a confirmation email for the second application, even though I received one the first time I applied. Could have sworn I got a confirmation *screen* during the application process, but now I’m doubting myself. It’s possible I’m now blocked I’m the system, but maybe it just didn’t go through? Should I try again just to be safe, or would it be weird to apply to the same place a third time?

    Part of me feels like there’s nothing to lose by trying, but part of me feels like I may be overlooking something. Maybe I’m over-thinking this. I could use some second opinions.

    1. Analytical Tree Hugger*

      You’re overthinking. Check your spam folder and check the ATS’ dashboard, if there is one. It seems highly unlikely you’ve been blocked or anything like that. Do your best to put it out of your mind and assume you aren’t going to hear back (then you can be pleasantly surprised).

      My sympathies, though. I’ve applied to almost fifty jobs since November 2018. Job searching is a pain.

  146. What's with Today, today?*

    For the first time my boss is sending me to our industry conference. I don’t have anything lined up on Day 1 because it consists of a 6-hour golf tournament. I’m a woman that doesn’t golf. That’s all.

    1. MechanicalPencil*

      I find that so annoying. I wish conferences could find networking opportunities outside of golf. I have no desire to learn how to play. Mini golf already drives me batty, and I don’t want to invest in lessons and clubs and everything else for something I dislike purely for the sake of networking.

      1. Fortitude Jones*

        I went to one that had the seemingly obligatory golf morning, but they also offered a volunteering opportunity as an alternative at a food bank. I did the volunteer opportunity, and it was great. Conferences should always try to have a backup like that since not everybody can, wants to, or does play golf.

    3. NotAPirate*

      Too bad it’s on day 1 I bet there are many people who don’t love golf enough to play it for 6 hours after traveling. Is there any where people might congregate that aren’t playing? Ideally you could spend the time networking with them.

  147. LDN Layabout*

    Yesterday’s Jolene and Elvis saga made me think, where do you draw the distinction between a work friendship and a social friendship?

    For me, the lines are:

    – Any outings are work related at least tangentially (after work drinks, lunch at work, activities in and around a conference, leaving drinks).
    – Aside from maybe the once a year Christmas outing, I view any out of work work events as time limited (e.g. I will stay for ___ amount of time then leave).
    – Unless it’s due to conferences/work travel, I am not going to spend time with coworkers on days off. Ever.
    – Add the above to going to a coworkers house. EVER.

    On the other hand, I grew up in an academics house and I know the above lines are definitely blurred in academia because there’s a community aspect to it that is lacking in the corporate world.

    Where do peoples boundaries lie?

    1. Bunny Girl*

      I define a social friendship as someone I would willingly spend time with if I wasn’t being paid to do so. But even that sometimes has another layer. In my last department, there was a group I’d go to happy hour with every couple months, but I probably wouldn’t hang out with them outside of that. I don’t know what you’d call that. But there was one person who I really got along with that I would go grab drinks with one-on-one and hang out outside of these happy hours who I would consider a social friend, not a work friend. I honestly very rarely get a large group of social friends from work, I like to keep the two very separate. I tend to collect one good friend from all my jobs and that’s it.

    2. CheeryO*

      Mine are slightly looser than yours, but they definitely still exist. I’m good with happy hour drinks once a month or so, although I always keep it to 1-2 drinks and maybe 2.5 hours at most, unless I’m traveling. I’ll go to coworkers’ houses, but only for a special occasion (showers, open houses to show off a new house, etc.). I don’t do social-friend stuff (meeting up on the weekends for movies or dinner or whatever). I just prefer to see other friends in my free time, even though I’m pretty close with a few coworkers. We get enough of each other during the week.

  148. Cranberry Sauce*

    Any advice on navigating office politics? I’m new to management and struggle with this aspect of the corporate world. Is this a necessary part of management? I try to be straightforward and put forward my best self as much as possible.

    1. NotAPirate*

      Never say anything you’d have to apologize for saying.

      Focus on the work and the outcomes more than the players.

      Don’t believe anything unless you heard it with your own ears.

    2. Goose Lavel*

      I recommend the book by Carnegie “How to Win Friends and Influence People”. It will greatly help your situation.

  149. Instacart questions?*

    I’m in need of some side hustle cash. I looked into donating plasma, but that for varying reasons is not doable. I figured I’d look into some gig work like Instacart but wondered if anyone had any experience either positive or negative that they could share. Is it even worth it to try?

    1. Bunny Girl*

      I’ve never personally done gig work, but I’ve used it and have had friends try it and I think you sink a lot more time than you’d think into it. Like if you look at Fiver, there are so many people offering nearly identical services that I think unless you really, really stand out or market yourself well, you might have crazy competition. That’s what my friends who have done stuff like that have said as well. Until you really build yourself up, which can take forever, you won’t be making a significant cash flow.
      Are you looking for a side hustle from home?

      1. Instacart questions?*

        Not necessarily from home, though that would be lovely. My understanding with Instacart is that you can work varying shifts and pick up jobs that way. I don’t want to do Uber/Lyft because of insurance purposes.

    2. animaniactoo*

      Find out the current status of tip setup on Instacart. It’s been an issue for the employees before.

      Otherwise, it depends on how much you’re looking to make.

    3. Bananatiel*

      If you have experience with animals I had a friend that made pretty good money pet-sitting and walking dogs for awhile when she needed flexible part-time work that actually made her money. I’m skeptical of a lot of services like Instacart because you can’t set your own prices as best I can tell and after you subtract expenses you’re not making much. But if your situation is dire, any income is better than none to start out!

    4. MoopySwarpet*

      I wouldn’t rule it out if you are truly desperate, but my understanding with any of those kinds of companies (Uber, Lyft, Door Dash, Grub Hub, etc.) is that you are paid as an independent contractor. That means you are responsible for the company portion of medicare and social security as well as your own withholdings. You also have the wear and tear on your car and the more complicated tax filings.

      I wouldn’t say it’s not worth it, but those styles of companies are basically shifting a good portion of normal business overhead onto the workers. It might be worth a try, but I wouldn’t do it for very long if I could avoid. You’re basically borrowing against the equity of your car.

    5. AnonyAnon*

      Amazon Mechanical Turk ~20-30 per week
      Rover or other dogwalking apps. Depends on if you are free in the 9-5 window most people want

      Honestly side hustle if you need real cash I’d go to delivery driving (like pizza hut etc), or bartending (events on weeknights, clubs weekends).

    6. Silver Fig*

      Most of the people I know who tried this sort of side gig ended up getting fed up with the companys’ loopholes and caveats, and switched to bartending or waitressing.

    7. Gumby*

      My sister did DoorDash. It was… okay.

      If you can find a side gig that you do yourself – not through an ap or other company that is going to take part of your earnings – that is another option. I completely accidentally fell into pet sitting when someone who knew me asked, and then passed my name on, and then they passed my name on… In the summer especially as people want to go on vacation, you could end up making a fairly decent amount.

      Also babysitting. And when I was last unemployed I earned a little by being a sort of lady’s companion – basically spent time with an older woman who had memory problems. Made sure she got meals at normal times, encouraged her to get up and move around, played cards some, it was actually pretty cool. She is a demon at dominoes!

  150. PegLeg*

    Does anyone have experience with Lean Black Belt training that is not overly manufacturing focused? I work at a mid-sized nonprofit focused on foster care, adoption, and behavioral health. I received my green belt certification and I understood most of the concepts, but it was painfully focused in manufacturing. There were a few tools I learned that will be useful, but most of the 30 hours of training were not strategies that I could translate to my work. I have been tapped to be our resident black belt and our CEO wants me to attend a training to get the official certification. Any suggestions of where I could look?

    1. Jaydee*

      There is Lean training geared for non-profit and state government agencies. Our state government is way into it, and I’ll be taking my first trainings in a couple weeks.

      leansixsigmaforgood(dot)com is one website to look at.

  151. ChirpyTheSparrow*

    Okay I’ve never posted before but I’ve read a lot and I need help.

    Short version: Mother passed away between first and second interview.

    Long version: I’ve been a stay at home mom, and then worked part time for a few years. I was looking at getting back into full time when a job opened up about five miles from me for a company that I’ve been following for years because they make amazing stuff. It’s an area that I’m not great in, but if you combine my part time stuff with my pre-stay at home stuff you can make a case for it. I applied, longshot, and got an interview Wednesday of last week (Thank you Allison for the cover letter help!!!). I was terrified but I went, and they said they’d get back to me by the weekend. My son graduated from high school on Thursday and my daughter had a landmark birthday so I was already feeling kerfuffled at life changes.

    Then my mom passed away on Saturday. It was sudden, and I was there when they called it, and it hurts more than I imagined anything could ever hurt. I’ve spent the week helping with funeral arrangements, and being with my dad, and crying so so much. I’ve had support, friends and neighbors sitting with me and bringing dinner and stuff, but I’m still just running on essential functions only. I said to my husband it was just as well they didn’t call back because what would I say if they did?

    But then they did. They want me to come in to the next level next week, and bring samples, and there are only three candidates for the job at this very very exciting workplace.

    What do I do? I don’t have any samples because my part time work is owned by the business, and anything else I have is too old or too unprofessional. Maybe I could come up with something, but the funeral is tomorrow and I just can’t think enough to put anything together. I’m not even sure I can go to the interview, but the last text my mother ever sent me was telling me how proud she was that I’d gotten the first interview, and I think she would be proud for this one? But what do I do? Do I tell them what the situation is, or would that make it feel like I’m looking for pity points? Do I give them crappy samples, or none at all, or tell them to give me more time? I don’t think they will. It’s a big company and the interviews are Wednesday morning only.

    I just have this swirl of grief and incompetence and excitement for the possibility and it’s a huge stormy mess and any advice at all would be more appreciated than I can say.

    Thank you so much for your time.

    1. LDN Layabout*

      Can the part-time work samples be edited/caveated to reflect that the work was done by you?

      2. ChirpyTheSparrow*

        Unfortunately because of the nature of the work it’s just not possible. Thank you for thinking of it though and for your kind words.

    2. animaniactoo*

      Reach out to them, explain the mom just passed, need to come up with samples due to part time work being owned by the business, and lack of time. Make it clear that you’ll figure something out if they really need you to do it now, but if there’s any flexibility, you could really use it.

      Get the info you need to figure out what you need to do and when.

      [hugs] I’m sorry about your mom.

    3. CameronT*

      I’m so sorry. This is an impossible situation. My mother is the most important person in my life after my kid, and I know that when she passes away I’ll need to take at least a month off of work to recover and might have to outright quit for awhile. So I understand how hard this is.

      I really want to tell you to go ahead with the interview – to be honest about your situation with them, and to give it your best shot, even with this terrible and unfair burden you’re under. Don’t worry about samples until after the interview, or just bring in the old stuff. In some ways you have nothing to lose. And you’re right, your mom would be proud of you for trying.

      But, it’s also completely fine to sit this one out. You need to take care of yourself, first and foremost. There will be other jobs. You’ll be able to use what you’ve learned from this application experience to make yourself a better candidate in the future. You have space. You have time. Sometimes saying “no” or quitting is the right thing to do.

      Sending you love. <3

      1. ChirpyTheSparrow*

        You’re right, I have nothing to lose. The opportunity was so out of nowhere that if it doesn’t work out nothing bad will happen. That’s a very good point. Thank you.

    4. MechanicalPencil*

      I’m so sorry for you loss. Your PT work may be owned by the business, but it’s still work you’ve done. Is any of it applicable to this with the caveat that it’s a sample you can’t leave with them? Can any of your previous work be updated or spruced up a bit? Have you done any volunteer work through your kids’ activities that might apply?

      1. fposte*

        Yes, most people’s work is owned by their workplace, but they still get to use samples from it. If there’s a confidentiality problem, can you redact details?

    5. CM*

      I am so sorry. Everything sounds so overwhelming right now. Big hugs to you.

      With only three candidates, I would definitely pursue this job. If you have a friend who has asked how she can help, tell her to come over the night before and put together an interview outfit for you. When you get to the interview, I’d be very upfront and say you are not at your best because your mother just passed away, but you have been wanting to work for this company for years so you’ve pulled yourself together as best you can. If they are decent people, they will cut you a lot of slack for this.

      So samples are the biggest problem. Is there a chance you could ask for permission to use your part time work as portfolio samples, or modify the work so that it doesn’t identify the company? (Even if it’s owned by the business, if the new company is just going to look at it, then the main consideration should be deleting anything sensitive, confidential, or identifying.) Is there anybody who could help you modify your existing work so it would be OK for this use? Again, lean on anybody you know, even if you ordinarily wouldn’t dream of asking them for help. People around you will be relieved that there’s something concrete they can do.

      Best of luck and I know you’ll get through this!

      1. ChirpyTheSparrow*

        Oh my gosh you’re right. I do have friends that work in a similar industry. I was thinking friends=hugs and dinner and I thought it might seem disrespectful to talk to them about the job interview instead of my mom, but you’re right, they might want to help me even if it’s not hugs and dinner. Thank you. I’ll see if I can get hold of anyone.

    6. Frustrated In DC*

      I lost my brother and my Mom within 10 days of each other almost a year ago so I just came here to say how very, very sorry I am that you lost your Mom. I have nothing to offer you advice wise, except that right now, be very, very kind to yourself. I am sending you a big virtual hug.

    7. Interplanet Janet*

      I’m so sorry for your loss! That’s a lot to handle all at once.

      I would briefly explain the situation and ask for a little more time. Maybe something like this:

      “I’m really thrilled to have made it to the second round of interviews! Unfortunately, I can’t provide you samples from my current job for non-disclosure reasons [or whatever reasons], so I’ll need to take a little time to pull something else together to show you. Would it be possible to delay the interview by a week? Normally I wouldn’t ask, but my mother died last week and between coping emotionally (we were close) and dealing with logistics, I am just overwhelmed. If your schedule makes delaying the interview impossible (and I understand that it might), I’m going to have to respectfully withdraw my application and hope you will consider me for future opportunities.”

      1. ChirpyTheSparrow*

        This is actually very helpful. It’s clear and professional but also tells what’s going on. Thanks.

        1. valentine*

          Tell your contact you’re bereaved and offer to send them samples 48 hours post-interview. Go to your interview.

  152. Sam Sepiol*

    6pm here and I just logged off. I’m so tired. This has been a very frustrating week.

    Question: I will imminently be subject to an influx of kittens and I largely work from home. I’ve read all the stories about how much feline creatures can interfere with wfh, so: HELP!! What can I do to increase the chances of both KITTENS!!!!!! and I being happy?

    1. LDN Layabout*

      Initially, since they’ll be kittens and smol (so smol and cute), you should try and keep them in one place for a start vs. roaming free throughout the place.

      The wfh can work two ways:

      If you have a space you can shut yourself off in to work, maybe keep that as cat free as possible even when not working. That could unfortunately lead to the allure of the mysterious door my person disappears to.

      You can also set up your work from home space to have tons of options for them to sit on close to you that aren’t a) you or b) your keyboard. Maybe make it special like a heated mat under a comfy bed that only comes out when you’re working?

      1. Clisby*

        At least in my experience, if you have more than one kitten they’re less needy – they interact with each other and don’t need you as much as a lone kitten would.

    2. That Girl From Quinn's House*

      When we got my cat, she was 6ish months and still in “baby” mode, she’d follow you around doing whatever you were doing, sticking her paws in it, and mewing. The most disruptive thing she’d do was sit on your keyboard. But around 8 months, she went full teenager and was into everything, and if you tried to stop her she’d swat at you with her claws out: if she got on your keyboard, you were not getting her off it without falconry gloves. During this time, she took down several of my husband’s remote data analyses just by standing on the keyboard and refusing to move.

      My suggestion is just to be aware that your kitten is going to change a lot in a short period of time, so a setup that works now might not work later, and it might be pretty sudden that Kitty is no longer allowed near (whatever.)

      1. Slartibartfast*

        When they’re smol, a large wire dog kennel during work hours. When they outgrow that, a screen door on your office :) Since there’s multiples, rely on them to play with each other while you work.

  153. Applying for jobs with maternity leave on the horizon*

    Should I confidently apply for jobs now, or wait until after my maternity leave (which should end January 2, 2020?) It feels somehow disingenuous to apply for jobs now, only 3 months before I give birth, yet I don’t want to simply give up on great opportunities because of pre-conceived restrictions. I’m really struggling with whether to put myself out there and go after jobs I want, versus stick with my decent-but-boring job until my baby is older.

    1. animaniactoo*

      Apply now and see what the field looks like. Applying and interviewing doesn’t commit you to taking.

      1. Lucette Kensack*

        Yes, this.

        But also be sure to investigate how your benefits (including parental leave) will play out in a new role. If you’re in the US, I’m sure you know that you won’t be covered under FMLA at a new job (it kicks in after a year of employment), so you won’t be protected in that way.

    2. Not usually anon, but feeling paranoid today*

      Do you really want to deal with the stress of learning a new position and new people at this time? Also, these people know you, as a new hire they have no track record of you and then you’ll be out on leave (I realize this shouldn’t be an issue, but it often is).

      1. Applying for jobs with maternity leave on the horizon*

        For any new job? No. For my dream job that only comes around once every couple of years? Maybe. I find myself continually making excuses for why I’m not “ready” to apply to new jobs, and I hate that motherhood has to be such a limiting factor in the U.S. for women (but usually not for men).

        And here’s my thinking:
        Don’t apply –> Don’t get the job.
        Apply –> Sure, maybe this job doesn’t work out with maternity leave timing. But I’ve put myself on their radar. What if the hiring process gets pushed back 6 months? What if a related position opens up down the road and they invite me back? What if they like me so much they’re willing to wait for me or give me maternity leave?

        I realize I’m answering my own question here. ;-)

    3. Sam Sepiol*

      “pre-conceived restrictions”
      I see what you did there, heh.
      Good luck with everything, whatever you decide!

    5. quirkypants*

      Honestly, it’s what feels right to you. Every person and every pregnancy is different. Some people can’t imagine a new challenge or more change while planning to birth a new human, and others can keep taking on the world like it’s no big deal (I’m in the former camp on this one).

      If you’re thinking about what an employer will think, well, that’s harder. Some folks won’t mind at all and others will gripe. Industry and role might play a role, not sure how much time you’d take off but sometimes a few months is easily absorbed while others it is a bigger inconvenience. I truly hope that despite the inconvenience, you’ll get decent people and decent, fair reactions.

      Whatever you decide, good luck! Going after a dream job seems like it may be worth it.

  154. User in PC Purgatory*

    Hopefully this will be a fun exercise. I’ll start by saying my company IT department is filled with a group of hardworking people that I know are busy and try really hard to keep all of us users running. That being said I’ve had a ticket now open for a month, because my laptop is singing it’s swan song and so slow it’s painful.

    For the past 4 weeks I’ve been adding a comment to the ticket every monday with a short “Any updates?” msg. in the hopes that someone will notice and acknowledge the tickets exist. I’m not sure what happens, but there seems to be a black hole when tickets are passed from tier 1 to tier 2. I’m in purgatory (My trouble ticket isn’t assigned to anyone and sadly I haven’t gotten any response even though IT members are on the notification of added comments. This morning I’m trying a different tack… Jokes!

    Today’s was:
    Q: Why is my computer so slow in the morning?

    A: It hasn’t had its cup of Java yet.

    So… any good slow/old pc jokes?

    1. valentine*

      I wouldn’t do this. Can your manager get them to prioritize your ticket? What’s the plan for when your laptop dies on you? Everything backed up?

  155. Indigo64*

    I received some odd career advice. A family friend (someone I respect, in his 50s) told me I should never work at the same company for more than 2 years because I’d be “leaving money on the table”. He reasons the best opportunities, promotions and raises come when you change jobs. I’ve been in my role for 2.5 years, and I love it. Great pay, great benefits, and I feel like I’m working my way up and building a career here. Everyone else on my level has been with the company 4+ years, people above me have been here for 6-8. I have no interest in leaving, plus I feel like switching jobs is really stressful.

    Is this just weird advice, or is there something to it? Interested to hear your thoughts, fellow readers!

    1. fposte*

      I don’t think it’s generally true, but I’ve heard reports that suggest it can be in places like Silicon Valley. Check with somebody in your specific industry and think about the career trajectories of people in jobs you’re aspiring to to see if that’s how your field operates.

    2. The Ginger Ginger*

      I think this is more applicable in some fields than others. It’s really common for developers, I believe (as an example). But if you’re happy where you are, there’s no reason to leave. It is worth looking around periodically to get a feel for your market worth and gauge your current pay against it. I think if you do your due diligence around that, and aren’t afraid to advocate for raises, there’s no reason you can’t stay longer with a good employer.

    3. CM*

      I do think it’s easier to get salary increases by changing jobs, but it’s offset by other considerations — starting over and having to prove yourself at each new place, less flexibility or vacation time, a reputation for only staying a few years and not being able to stick it out for the long term. As someone who has typically held jobs for 3-5 years, I find that the nice thing about switching jobs is that I get to look for exactly what I want without being limited to what’s available at my current job. But I have all those downsides that I mentioned.

      Sounds like you’re in an unusually good situation where you’re happy with your work, opportunities, and salary. It makes more sense to consider switching every few years if you’re trading up, but not if you’re already very content where you are.

    4. MissDisplaced*

      Well, he’s only sort of right. Basically, he’s saying you’ll make more money by strategic job hopping every 2-3 years or so and and upping your base salary than by staying at the same company for 10 years where it’s common to only get small cost of living increases.

      In truth, this does work. I’ve done it myself. If I’d have stayed put at one company for 15 years, I’d probably still only be making $50k (considering paltry 1-3% COL and no bonus structure) whereas I’ve “hopped” onward and upward to make $85k+bonus for similar work.
      But I stress that this isn’t always the case! There are so many corporate factors and industry norms at play! And this theory also generally assumes that you are increasing your level of expertise, skills and level within your field. Plus, you have to take into account the general state of the economy and job market.

      If you feel you are happy where you are, and are being paid fair market value and have an upward trajectory at your current company, then of course there is no reason to leave for the sake of leaving.

      I do recommend you re-evaluate your job and career every few years to make sure you really are getting paid fairly for your area and have opportunities to get bonuses and/or advancement and industry experience. It can become really easy to become “stuck” because you’re happy and content (and some are also fine with being stuck if it suits their lifestyle).

      1. AnotherAlison*

        Just going to jump in to provide additional examples to the OP here. . .

        As I said in my comment below, I’ve been at my current company 14 years. My average raise has been 6%. Over time, that gets me about 130% of my original starting salary here. If MissDisplaced stayed 15 years at a 3% raise, she would be making $77k, which is obviously less than $85k+ bonus, but if the average raises were 3.7%, she would make $86k at the original job (independent of bonuses).

        I wouldn’t stay anywhere that raises are zero, but I think time in the industry & building expertise is really the key. 20 years experience is worth a lot more than 5 years entry level experience in 4 different industries.

    5. AnotherAlison*

      Definitely only consider that advice in the context of what he does and what you do. When I was a young person out of school, I heard similar things and left my company at 5 years (not solely for that reason, but it seemed like I was following a logical path). I have had other opportunities at other companies since then, but instead have stayed at my current company 14 years. I probably could make more money had I moved around more, but I also would have had a lot less stability. Many of our competitors merged or went under over the past 15 years, and even surviving companies have had a lot of layoffs. I have been able to stay at a company I like, in roles I like, and not have to move around the country.

    6. Silver Fig*

      Absolutely a thing in tech. Often a thing in management science/scrum/etc. Varies in other fields.

      If you’re happy, stay put until you aren’t.

    7. Tinker*

      This is standard advice for software developers and somewhat as well (with different timeframes) for other tech-type jobs I’ve seen. It also varies within those domains based on what stage your career is in, the state of the local market, etc.

      Like a lot of things, there’s an underlying principle to the advice that is probably worth considering for most people — that it’s worth evaluating the possibility that changing jobs will result in more salary growth and more opportunities than staying, say — but the specific implementation details are dependent on circumstances.

      A lot of advice that seems super weird to the person receiving is like that, I’ve noticed — it makes more sense when you realize that it comes from a place of, say, “this industry is intensely concerned with whether you are rapidly adapting to a fast-changing market or not”, “computers are a suspicious thing that children get up to no good on”, or “not only will people straight-up fire you for being gay, it’s not out of the question that you’d get arrested”, to name some truths of various places and times.

  156. Aphrodite*

    I work in higher ed and the union recently successfully negotiated the option of working 10/4 or 80/9 days (subject to your supervisor’s approval). It is tempting to go for it but I am wondering how others felt. Is it physically exhausting, at least enough to make it not worth it? (We cannot choose other flex times because the college would have to pay overtime.) For me, that would probably mean working from 7:00 am to 5:30 pm if I choose the former, but I am older and am not sure I can physically maintain it. I am single so it’s not like I have a family that needs to be fed, but I do have cats and I worry about them going that long without food. Right now I work from 7:30-4:00 and the cats are shrieking for dinner when I walk in the door. Leaving dry food out is not an option; I’m not risking potential ants.

    1. The Ginger Ginger*

      Is it something you could try, and go back to your normal schedule if it makes you too tired? Or are you stuck with it? If you find it does work for you, you could try a timed feeder for your cats, so you’re not leaving food out, but it’s feeding them at the time they expect – even if you’re not home yet.

      1. CatCat*

        Yeah, try experimenting with it. I loooooove doing 9/8/80, but I don’t think I could do 4/10.

    2. KR*

      Is it possible to try out either arrangement for a week or two to try it out? I think that’s a reasonable thing to ask for.

    3. CheeryO*

      We don’t have 4/10, but we do have 9/80 (actually 9/75, gotta love the 37.5 hour workweek). Everyone who does it absolutely raves about it. They all say that you get used to the longer days really quickly, and that it’s more than worth it for the extra 26 days off per year.

    4. LCL*

      My boyfriend works 9/80 and loves it. I worked 4/10 and loved it, but stopped because of some peculiarities of old agreements prevents me from getting the pay premium for working over 8 hours. Long boring story about that, just say getting the municipality to recognize they have shift workers was harder than one would expect. I was not interested enough in going back to 4/10s to do the necessary work to get the agreement changed.

      One pitfall of 4/10s that management has to watch out for is, if offered the choice, working Monday through Thursday is much more popular than working Tuesday through Friday. Management should decide beforehand how many people will be allowed to work each configuration, and be prepared to have a ‘fair’ way in place to limit and adjust the staffing.

    5. Silver Fig*

      Not what you asked, but can you shift their mealtimes? Mine eat twelve hours apart, which would be just barely feasible with a ten-hour work day and an hour commute each way.

    6. Aphrodite*

      Thank you all! I know my supervisor would be willing for me to try it out but HR is the one handling this. However, not surprisingly, they are very rigid so I don’t know if a trial would work. I am willing to ask.

      As for a timed feeder, it probably won’t work unless the “holder” the food is in is completely sealed–and I do not believe they are. I haven’t had ants in years but that’s because I became fanatical and all food is either in sealed containers or the refrigerator/freezer. Good idea, though!

      And thanks to LCL, I just remembered that the form HR sent out has something that says you cannot do Monday or Friday. If that is the case I will forget it. I am definitely not interested in doing a mid-week day off. So I’ll check that on Monday too. This decision may be easier than I originally thought.

    7. Ama*

      My workplace tried 80/9 one summer and while I liked it, we also did it when I lived 10 minutes walk from our office so adding an extra hour really didn’t change my day much. Now that I live a 40-50 minute transit commute away I think it would make my day just too long and give me not much free time in the evenings. But I’d probably want to try it out for a bit just to see — who knows, maybe going home an hour later will reduce my commute time considerably.

    8. Pam*

      My campus does 4/10 in summer. I hate it. Particularly, if you’re in a student focused job, you will be spending a lot of blank hours- students won’t come in at 7 a.m.

    9. None the Wiser*

      Actually, your cats will be fine if they are fed a little later. They shriek when you come in because they are being dramatic. One of ours does the same thing even when he has food available.

  157. ValaMalDoran*

    So, is not surviving a probationary period the same thing as getting fired? I had a production/making stuff type job for 2 or 3 months (whatever the probationary period was), but they didn’t keep me because I wasn’t fast enough. This was a couple years ago.

    Do I answer yes on the have you ever been fired question?

      1. BRR*

        I’m curious why you say no? To me it’s the same as being fired. Doing it at the end of a probationary period is usually just an internal way of having it be easier to let someone go. I think Weegie has a very good point.

        1. WellRed*

          I guess I see it almost like, when someone reaches the end of a contract and the employer opts not to renew it, I realize this a different situation and apparently I am the outlier so just ignore me ; )

    2. Weegie*

      I think it is the same as being fired: you worked there, you were paid, then they let you go because they felt you weren’t performing to the desired level. The important question is, what would that organisation say if approached by a prospective employer? Would they say you were fired, laid off, or that you left of your own accord?

    3. Rusty Shackelford*

      Unless they specifically said “we’ll bring you on temporarily and then decide whether to hire you permanently,” you were fired.

    4. ..Kat..*

      Can you call the company to find out what they would say if someone called to verify your employment there?

  158. quirkypants*

    This is SUPER LOW STAKES but I’m interested in people opinions, re: ARRIVING EARLY TO JOB INTERVIEWS.

    How early is too early? I’m trying to figure out how annoyed I have a right to be – haha! And maybe whatever comments come out of this thread will be illustrative for job-seekers and for myself!

    Context: We have a small reception area, we don’t have a full-time receptionist (we don’t even have a reception desk), our meeting rooms are always booked solid (so often, I can’t even bring them to the meeting room early to get settled) AND I’m normally booked consistently, too. Job seekers won’t know any of this in advance, but all to say, there’s no place to put these candidates even if I was available to chat early.

    I have been doing a lot of hiring lately, yesterday I had someone show up 5 minutes early (which I happen to think is the perfect time), someone else showed up a 10 minutes early (still acceptable), the last one showed up TWENTY THREE minutes early. WHY?

    We’re in a downtown area, so I understand (and am grateful) they left extra time to find our office but after finding it – why not walk around the block (it happened to be a beautiful day – sunny, not too hot, not too cold), browse a nearby store (there are several), or sit in a coffee shop. I happen to be the person who walks around the block a couple times.

    So… what are the opinions of people here?

    For Interviewers: Does extreme earliness bug you? Or, do you like it? How early is too early?

    For Job Seekers: If you’re one of those people who shows up 20 minutes, are you doing it intentionally? Are you doing it to make a certain impression? Is it just luck?

    1. fposte*

      I think mostly people arrive when transportation gets them there, and they have no idea of what kind of waiting area awaits them. If you have absolutely no waiting area, I’d just inform candidates of that when you extend an interview invitation; if there’s a nearby coffee shop, you might point that out.

      1. Lucette Kensack*

        Yep, I think that’s the right answer. 23 minutes is early, but not absurdly early (I tend to think that around 10 minutes is right).

        And there’s a zero percent chance that I’ll “walk around the block” or even browse a bookstore before an interview. I’m not interested in getting sweaty or messing up my hair or inviting the possibility that I’ll trip and rip my pants. I want to sit somewhere, and if you let me know that that’s not a possibility at your office I’ll make another plan (coffee shop, my car, etc.)

        1. quirkypants*

          There is a place to sit, a couple chairs but it’s definitely a bit off-putting in my office since we don’t have a receptionist (we’re about 40 people, but a tech company so there’s no need) so whoever is closest to the door ends up being interrupted or they come and interrupt me.

          Anyways, I’m glad to hear different perspectives. So thank you!

          1. valentine*

            I would be happy there with my book and bathroom access. I’m with Lucette Kensack on sitcom crap happening if I dare to go anywhere else. If there were a bench nearby, I’d consider it, but you never know who might see and consider that negative. Plus, I definitely need to use the bathroom before I can make good decisions again.

    2. Catsaber*

      When I did hiring, it didn’t really bother me if they showed up super early – sometimes that’s just how it is. They are often nervous and sometimes don’t think about going elsewhere to wait it out – they’re just in “GET TO THE PLACE, BE ON TIME BE ON TIME BE ON TIME” autopilot mode. This is especially true for more inexperienced job seekers. I’ve had a few people come an hour early and just sit in our waiting area. For your situation, I would start letting them know you don’t really have a waiting area but there are some good places to hang out if they need to.

      What *does* annoy me if is they get pushy with people in trying to start their interview early. Sitting around quietly on your phone for 30 min? A little awkward, but okay. Badgering the receptionist or other people in the office to get the hiring manager out there earlier? No good.

      1. quirkypants*

        Last round of hiring someone showed up 30 minutes early, I went to go get them at about five to the interview start time because I knew the meeting room had opened up and I was free.

        After sitting down they commented about how they had been sitting there for half an hour. I confirmed that the meeting start time was X time and they said yes, but that it’s rude to keeping people waiting. HAH! They were not a top choice in terms of their skills but even if they had been, that would have been serious points again them.

        1. EDinTX*

          I have had the same thing happen! I don’t usually keep people waiting for no reason, even if they are ridiculously early, but sometimes it can’t be helped since interviewing is not my only responsibility. I once had someone show up three hours early because she was taking the bus and didn’t know how long it would take – I get it, but I have other stuff to do! This particular candidate then turned out not to have the basic requirements that were noted in the ad and that were discussed in her phone screen (she lied by omission) and then was mad that we “wasted” her time when we told her we couldn’t make any exceptions.

      2. Ama*

        Yeah, if I am early (which I often am because around my city you have to build in buffer time in case of transit delays) I always say when I arrive, “I know I’m early, I can just sit over here if no one’s ready for me.”

        1. Fortitude Jones*

          Same. I don’t drive – I take Uber/Lyft everywhere – so I arrive whenever my driver does. I try not to be a nuisance though if I’m early.

    3. Judgment day*

      Yes, as an interviewer, more than 15 minutes early is awkwardly early. With more and more companies moving to open offices, there sometimes isn’t a completely separate area to sit and wait–I at least do not have one. So the applicant is sitting there watching you work before your interview and it just feels weird. I mean, if the person turns out to be stellar I would forget about the earliness and not hold it against them, but it’s the kind of thing that starts you off on the wrong foot.

      1. quirkypants*

        Yeah, I wouldn’t hold it against them but it is the kind of thing I sigh about it to myself. I was talking to our VP of Tech about this and he also hates it.

        I wonder if it differs between industries…

    4. Lumen*

      I once had a guy show up *forty five minutes early*. He was a bicyclist and hadn’t wanted to be late. But instead of going to get a soda or waiting in the lobby downstairs, he came right up to our office and sat in our front area in front of my reception desk and waited. For almost an hour.

      It was the most awkward interaction ever, until a few months later when he got ribbed by his coworkers and reacted by storming around the office screaming and swearing at everyone.

      So I’d say that arriving early and showing a distinct lack of awareness around social norms/other people’s comfort is not a great sign.

      I think that “five minutes early is ten minutes late” has rapidly fallen out of favor. There are still hiring managers who will be approving and pleased by this degree of punctuality, but I think there are more these days who will be annoyed by it. I think five to ten minutes early is perfectly fine.

    5. AnotherAlison*

      I’m an early person, but my default would be to wait in my car until no more than 10 min before, and I would expect others to do the same. In QP’s situation, I realize people aren’t necessarily driving, but there are options of other spots to wait & show up 5-10 min early at the office. At my office, as soon as you check in with the receptionist, she would call me. I realize I don’t have to come meet you yet, but then I know you’re there, and it would be distracting. I don’t think I would judge you negatively if you were overall great, but it wouldn’t be a point in your favor, either. You should also not show up to the office on the dot of your interview time. You need to get a guest badge, etc., and that may take a few minutes if there are other visitors occupying the receptionist.

    6. Errol*

      I am usually early, like 1 hour to half hour early to all interviews. But I also usually either find the place and sit in my car, or when I used to transit go get a beverage near by and aim to be walking through the door 10-15 minutes early maximum.

      I used to plan for 15 minutes early until one time the train was delayed and I missed my interview because it sat at a station for 30 minutes effectively killing my timeline. And I lack direction awareness (can’t sort out my left, rights, and NWSE directions) and google maps is all sorts of messed up in my city for some reason so often it will take you on a long detour when driving, so I feel better to find my way to the offices with lots and lots of extra time so I am relaxed and not rushed. Plus it’s nice to take a breather before the interview without rushing from traffic through to meet people for the first time.

      1. Psyche*

        Yep. I always get there ridiculously early. I make sure I can find exactly where the interview will be and then find a bench or coffee shop to hang out in. I am paranoid about being late and I take public transportation, so early is the only way to ensure being on time.

        1. BRR*

          Same here. At one interview I needed to take regional rail and there was a snafu and it ate up my entire two hour buffer. I got there right on time.

    7. Laura H.*

      I’m hired and I show up early…

      it’s 70% when transportation gets me there, 30% me wanting cushion on the off chance my combo lock is finicky or i forget the combo and have to go thru possible combos till I land on the right one. (Both happened to me and i was late due to the finicky lock) If I’m over an hour early, I’ll see if I can get dropped elsewhere nearby with a place to wait and order something small so that I can decompress and not be as thumb twiddly.

    8. The Man, Becky Lynch*

      The first few times it happened, I had the same kneejerk “argh why tho” reaction that you’re dealing with! But then like others have mentioned, transportation is a huge key in when people arrive. Lots of people have arrived via bus and therefore they have no other options. They may not want to browse something because they’ll get distracted or sweat in their suit, you know?

      I also stopped being annoyed by it when people started no-showing on me. That is the worst thing ever in hiring.

      I have people show up early and reception snarks about it to me and my response is just “at least they’re here, I’m not even mad.”

    9. Seven hobbits are highly effective, people*

      I’m habitually late places in my personal life, so for things like interviews where it’s important to be on time I try to be really early. This usually results in me being just regular early (I think of 15 minutes early as what I’d aim for if I were someone who were better at getting to places when I “should”, which may be a holdover from how a lot of medical appointments want you to be 15 minutes early). I’ve also had to do a lot of “which door is actually unlocked and open for visitors” scrambling at some places, so I try to allow enough time to do that. If I’m going to be more than a half hour early, I’ll wait in the car, but less than a half hour seems like “reasonably early” to me, I guess? Particularly since time gets chewed up with the aforementioned “which door is unlocked and why is there no sign on the locked door near the parking lot pointing you to it” shuffle that is bizarrely common in my life.

      I also am someone who always brings a book with me, so I will just check in with reception if there is one and sit and read until I’m called for my appointment unless they have some paperwork they want me to fill out for some reason or other. I don’t try to convince anyone to interview me early or anything.

    10. Luisa*

      The last time I was job-hunting, I was relying on public transit, which (for me) meant I was much more likely to arrive in the general area 30 minutes early than “right on time.” I’m a teacher, so I can pretty much count on there being a reception space in the main office for me to wait, but I still try to never go in more than 10 minutes before. I had one interview where I killed time just standing in shaded patches of sidewalk between the bus stop and the school!

      Once I arrived 10 minutes before my scheduled interview and was offered a seat in the waiting area of the main office by a very friendly school secretary, and then, moments later, the principal came out of his office and complained to me about how early I was and how I couldn’t expect him to stop whatever he was doing to start the interview early. (But apparently stopping whatever he was doing to come out and scold candidates was okay in his book?) When I later got a job at another school in that’s district, I learned that this man was widely considered to be a major dick.

      OTOH I know that at least one administrator at my current school considers candidates late if they aren’t 10 minutes early, so I guess what I’m saying is nobody wins, ever.

      1. quirkypants*

        Hah! No one wins ever. A motto for life?

        I also rely on public transit and tend to leave extra time to make sure I’m early am likely to do something like you and just find a place to wait around if I’m early.

    11. Miss Pantalones en Fuego*

      If someone shows up crazy early, could you cheerfully mention that there’s a decent coffee/book/whatever shop across the street and you’ll make a note that the candidate has arrived?

  159. But why?!?!?!*

    One of my colleagues just retired. He spent weeks cleaning out his desk, because he had been here for years and stuff sort of accumulated. His last day was this week, and the next day there were still piles of paper and files and binders on the desk, and the drawers and cabinets at his old workstation are still completely full. His replacement starts the week after next, so now the rest of us have to finish cleaning out the workspace so this person will have a place to work. I am not happy about it.

    1. Veryanon*

      Ugh. I recently went through this too. Even after my colleague left, I had to scrub out her cubicle for the next person, and found….things I would rather not have found. Yikes.

    2. CheeryO*

      We’re about to deal with this with two checked-out longtime employees who don’t think it’s their job to clean out their cubes. I honestly can’t wait to get a big recycling tote and toss everything. It’s going to feel amazing. The actual cleaning of the desk and computer equipment I could do without. We found a stash of nail clippings last time we cleaned a retiree’s desk…

      1. De Minimis*

        This reminds me of a story I heard at a previous job–a longtime administrator retired [suddenly, without notifying team members] and when it came time to clean out her office, they found that her cabinets had nothing in them but a bunch of promotional water bottles from various health insurance providers from health fairs past. It was speculated she might not have been doing much in the way of actual work during her last months there, if not longer.

    3. AvonLady Barksdale*

      I used to work in the NY office of a company headquartered in another state. There were only three people in the office, and we had individual offices in a shared space (a Regus for those familiar). One woman was let go and another was hired, so I was asked to go through that office and just make sure things were tidy (my other co-worker was on maternity leave). I found a lot of ketchup packets, papers, and shoes. SHOES. She never said a word about her missing shoes.

      It was not a productive use of my time.

    4. Rey*

      Why do retirees not understand this? We had exactly the same problem with 3 people in the last 3 years. I’m all for institutional knowledge and documentation, but at least box it up so we can clean out the dust bunnies before your replacement arrives.

      1. Silver Fig*

        The people retiring now started working when everything was done manually. Many of them struggled to adapt to a paperless environment. I am hoping this rat-nest issue will die out over the coming decades.

        1. De Minimis*

          I hope so, though one of my recent supervisors was on the older end of GenX and was the worst I’d ever seen as far as wanting to print out every single thing, sometimes multiple times.

          1. valentine*

            Why do retirees not understand this?
            It’s their managers who need to make and execute a decluttering plan.

    5. I hate the offseason.*

      I have taken over two really awful offices in the past. The first one was a filthy pig. There was dirt everywhere, and mold growing on the curtains. One of the support staff pitched in to help because she couldn’t stand the mess either. So I got lucky. The other was when I moved into supervising, and the former superviser went to another division without doing a thing. Months later, when I was formally confirmed (not just acting), I had one of the staff help me sort things into piles thinking it would be easier for the former supervisor to get what he wanted. He never did. We ended up tossing a lot of stuff. His current office looks much the same. We found mouse/roach poop everywhere, and an actual dead mouse carcas buried in the massive piles of paper he had shoved under his desk over the years. It still makes my skin crawl.

    6. Ama*

      We moved offices a couple years ago which meant I had to sort through my predecessor’s files — she didn’t trust digital storage and so kept paper copies of everything she considered important (plus a lot of *HER* predecessor’s files from when there was only paper). To be fair, I did end up saving about 1/3 of what she had because there were some important documents detailing the founding of some longstanding initiatives here (and also some defunct programs that were useful to have documentation of), but there were also a lot of printed out emails recording each member of a committee agreeing to some meeting date from a decade earlier.

      But at least because we did that it is now done and when I leave there will be far less to clear out because I have spent much of my tenure here making sure we have digital documentation of everything.

  160. Rude Dude*

    A tangent from today’s post about the success story with the annoying coworker posted here so as to not distract. It’s great that speaking directly has worked in that case.

    Where can I find a corporate dictionary? My definition of “direct” and everyone else’s differs, and I have suffered. I do not believe “I’d like to hear what Bob has to say” qualifies as direct. It may well be civil or professional, but it doesn’t feel completely honest.

    A direct response, imo, would be to issue a command or request to stop talking. Unfortunately, I’ve got the frame of mind that being less than direct and saying anything less than (the whole/nothing but) the truth is the equivalent of lying.

    I see myself as direct and honest, which is how I want to be treated. I’m not a Col. Jessup, but there have been moments….I gotta find some help. Maybe it’s simply semantics and I need to start substituting the word “civil” when others say “direct.”

    1. fposte*

      Can you give an example of where the terminology matters? What you’re describing sounds more like a culture clash on manner of expression than an issue of terminology.

      What I will say is that “direct and honest” are moving targets, and not all workplaces will prioritize them the way you want to. “Shut up, Polly, you’re annoying” would be direct and honest, and also unacceptable in a lot of workplaces, whereas “I’d like to hear what Bob has to say” is also direct and honest but acceptable in more.

    2. Psyche*

      Being direct does not necessarily mean being rude. Interrupting the interrupter to say that the previous speaker was not done is direct but polite.

    3. CM*

      It’s about tone, not directness.

      “Direct” doesn’t mean you issue a command. Unless you’re in the military or another rigidly hierarchical workplace, it’s rarely the right move to issue a command.

      If somebody’s interrupting, you can say “Don’t interrupt” — which will make you sound rude and will make them get defensive — or you can say “I’d like to hear what Bob has to say” which addresses the impact of the person’s interruption. It’s direct, but softer in tone, which makes it easier for people to hear and agree with. There’s no issue of honesty. Neither statement is a lie or an omission. It’s just a different way of saying it.

      Similarly, if someone is being annoying, you can focus on their behavior and say “Stop doing that,” or you can focus on the impact of their behavior and say, “Hey, when you do that, I have trouble concentrating. I’d appreciate it if you could not do that when I’m around.” Different tone, same directness. And the latter allows you to give more context without sounding judgmental, which again, makes the message easier for someone to accept.

    4. Judgment day*

      Yeah, I have a coworker who prides herself on directness, but what she sees as direct, we all see as rude, attacking, or just excessively whiny.

      “Direct” or “honest” does not trump professionalism; it plays by the rules of professionalism when in a professional setting. A big part of professionism is treating others with respect and acting in ways that advance rather than detract from your team goals. So a rule of thumb with any trait you want to bring to the workplace, whether honesty, perfectionism, caring, etc is to see it as falling under the umbrella of professionalism, not a trait outside it. I want to show my employees that I am caring, I still have to do it in a way that respects professional boundaries–I give them adequate workloads rather than showing up to help clean their houses. If I am a perfectionist, I must moderate this trait to serve my team and only allow my perfectionism to come out appropriate to ensure a good final product. The same goes for directness and honesty: professionalism comes first.

    5. LCL*

      Something for you to think about for awhile is what you consider honest, and what kind of honesty is important to you and why. It sounds to me like that’s where you’re getting hung up. In the example you gave, second paragraph, you said the response doesn’t feel completely honest. So what? Honesty is not the only important point in human interactions.

      (Making this its own paragraph because it was important, and really hard for me to learn.) It is OK to tell polite white lies to ease social and professional interaction. When Fido is leaving for the day and says ‘have a good weekend’ it’s OK and better to answer back, ‘You too’. Even if he is the most useless person you have ever known and you really hope he dies in a fire.

      Of course you don’t lie about things where they are only right if truthful. Such as most business interactions. That is the place where your commitment to honesty and integrity will serve you well. But again, at the conclusion of the meeting you say ‘thank you all for coming, I appreciate your help on this.’ You don’t say ‘if Spot would have done his job right in the first place we wouldn’t all be here wasting our time going over this again.’. Even if it’s true.

    6. Lilysparrow*

      “Direct” in this context means the path of communication. You are addressing the problem directly with the person causing it (the interruptor).

      Being indirect in this context could include: complaining to someone else about it afterward; showing impatience or displeasure through nonverbal displays like sighing or eye-rolling; or making blanket statements to the air, like “Can we all please hold questions until the end?”

      Direct-path communication is also honest, even when it is politely worded – much more honest than using an indirect path, which usually fails to communicate at all.

      To use your example – if you didn’t want to hear what Bob has to say, why would you care if someone interrupted him? If you wanted someone to cut Bob off, then you’d be glad. You wouldn’t correct the interruptor at all.

      So it is honest – unless you don’t actually care what Bob says, you just want to enforce the social rule about turn-taking for arbitrary reasons?

      If that were the case, then the social rule about “This is how we speak to co-workers” is just as valid.

  161. Worker Bee 1*

    Here are a couple questions that I’ve beeb thinking about recently because of my current job scenario.

    Are you passionate about your job? If so, how did you know you wanted to stay on that careeer path for the rest of your life?

    Did you ever make a huge career/ life transition to “follow your dreams”?

    I’d love to hear from all of you!

    1. Anonymous Educator*

      I’m passionate about doing a good job at my job, and I get intellectual stimulation and satisfaction from my job. But I would not be doing my job if it didn’t pay me. I don’t want to stay on this career path for the rest of my life. In fact, I’ve switched up career paths several times already.

      1. Thankful for AAM*

        AE, are you me?
        Thats what I said – I’m passionate about doung a good job and I like the intellectual stimulation.

    2. De Minimis*

      No, but I’ve recently learned I do need to feel some level of personal investment in my employer’s mission. Otherwise I really just lose interest. The work I do is pretty much the same no matter the employer, but it’s harder for me to be motivated if I don’t really care much about the work of the organization.

      I did a reverse ” follow your dreams,” I went back to school in order to make a transition to a practical, professional career that I don’t really feel passionate about, but can deal with.

  162. Lumen*

    I applied internally to a different department about two weeks ago and have not heard so much as a peep. I’m trying to remember that the department is in the middle of a massive push right now and their open position is probably lower priority, but it’s demoralizing. I really want out of my current role.

    Especially because I just found out that yet another supervisor is leaving our group. This would be the third person of their level to leave in the past year, and it means yet another redistribution of their work onto the rest of us.

    I think higher-ups are finally realizing that we are overworked and burning out, and are adding another person, but honestly… it’s too late. They’ve pushed back so hard against giving us more resources to work with that they can’t hold on to the people they have.

    1. Lumen*

      Related: does anyone else actually get callbacks from using the Easy Apply functions on things like LinkedIn and Glassdoor? I love the ease of it but I get the feeling that companies just aren’t taking them seriously.

    2. AnonyMoosewithTea*

      Oh man, I totally understand. Our old CEO screwed over my department head and I’ve been dealing with more and more work for the past 2.5 years while the CEO refused to let department head hire for a junior position to help me out. It’s led to me taking a new job. Meanwhile, new CEO says we’re in a precarious financial situation and can’t rehire anyone except the director of marketing (to make money). I don’t think he realizes that the boat is sinking and myself and several others are jumping ship. Don’t know how he expects to bail out the water without more people. I’m thinking of doing the crazy thing and telling him directly that the lack of help for 2.5 years is what led me to quit.

      I’m sorry that your coworkers are jumping ship and the higher-ups are oblivious to morale. They suck and you would do better than they are. I hope that you do get the new position! <3

      1. Lumen*

        Thank you! I think I have a fair shot (and I’m applying externally too, it would just be nice to have less instability and transition this year, rather than more).

        We had a department meeting where the c-level exec who has pushed back so hard against hiring more people went over some employee survey results from *seven months ago*. Clearly employees are not a priority to him. He also seemed to fundamentally, willfully misconstrue the results and ignored any mention of overwork or lack of resources or people being stretched too thin. It was appalling.

  163. AnonyMoosewithTea*

    About three or four weeks ago I signed a contract where “My signature below indicates that I accept the position as a [NAME OF FELLOWSHIP FELLOW].” The fellowship is to help people break into a certain industry. In the convening three weeks I was hired in a full-time position with a company in this certain industry, so I wrote them an email letter declining the fellowship. I sent it yesterday but haven’t heard a peep. Do you think they can sue me for breach of contract? If so, what would the consequences of that be? (If monetary, how much?) All parties to the contract live, work, and are based in the US.

    1. Lumen*

      If you don’t hear back from them by EOD Monday, give the fellowship organization a call or follow-up email. No need to bring up lawsuits, just say you want to confirm that they received your email.

      I’m not sure that what you signed constitutes a contract. Review the document if you still have access to it (you should; if you don’t have a fully executed copy then that is Sign #1 that it is not a ‘contract’). See if there is any language regarding penalties, ‘remedies’, etc. If there is a financial consequence to declining the fellowship after accepting it, it should be stated. If it isn’t, that’s Sign #2 that this is probably not a ‘contract’.

      #NotALawyer, I just read a lot of contracts for work. Obligations are stated but more importantly, so are consequences. IE, if a customer of ours flakes out and doesn’t meet their obligations, but we don’t have language in the document lining out what we can demand as ‘remedy’, we have that much less legal standing to take them to court over it (or even send them to collections).

      1. AnonyMoosewithTea*

        So they did also sign the document, which is what worries me (I knew I should have waited to sign this thing! ugh!). However, I just read through it and there are no consequences to me backing out of it. Now, if I was to, say, get drunk while on the job during the fellowship and generally just not do what was expected, they could kick me out at any time but that’s the only consequence of anything that I can see in the document. That makes me feel a little better about my chances.

        I will follow up on Monday to “make sure” they received my email. Thank you for putting some of my nerves at ease!!

        1. Lumen*

          It sounds like what you signed may have just been in place to document the commitment, and also to show that you had read and understood their expectations.

          I agree with CM (and really glad a lawyer chimed in to further set your mind at ease). Focus on smoothing over the professional relationship, definitely apologize, but I wouldn’t expect some vicious blowback over this. After all, they have a fellowship to help people get into the industry; I doubt they are interested in burning bridges with the exact people they’re trying to help.

      2. CM*

        IAAL, and I think this is good advice. It seems unlikely they would sue you, or have penalties for canceling.
        I’m wondering why you’re worried about this. I’d focus instead on apologizing and smoothing things over by telling them you really appreciate their time in considering you and offering you the fellowship, and you realize this is inconvenient for them.

        1. AnonyMoosewithTea*

          Well, I was only worried because I hadn’t heard from them and my lizard brain kicked in, haha.

          In the declining letter, I apologized twice and explained the circumstances that led to me getting the other gig. Basically, I applied for the other job back in February, and never heard back until three days after I accepted the fellowship. (I applied for the fellowship after applying for the job.) It took two weeks to go through the interview process and get the job offer, and now I’m emailing the fellowship folks back. The company I got a job with is considered “prestigious” and I offered to help the fellowship people if there’s anything within my power to do. I had my mom look over the letter so hopefully it’s okay.

          Thank you for chiming in as a lawyer – my mind is more at ease now!!

          1. Lumen*

            I’m really grateful for this comment section sometimes, for exactly this reason.

            It sounds like you’re handling an awkward situation very well, even if on the inside it makes you really anxious. Make sure to take some time after you feel more settled to commend yourself for getting both the fellowship and the job offer, too – clearly you are a good candidate and there are people in your industry who want to invest in your success.

  164. Unemployed in Greenland*

    Any advice on a negative job/life spiral?

    The basic issue: I feel very tired and hopeless about the job search. I have not yet had a full-time job yet in adulthood that’s lasted more than a year. Further background: I finished an advanced degree two years ago and have been cobbling together part-time jobs since (after I chose to leave academia.) The gig hustle has its positive and seductive side (look! everybody needs you to sing, take care of their pets, teach, clean, tutor, edit!)

    I was proud for earning more money last year than I ever had before … but it was at the expense of my health, as four part-time jobs simultaneously (in the fall) meant that I was pulling extremely long days. (It led to a nasty bout of bronchitis.) In any case, come tax season, I got my 11 W-2s and 1099s together, and discovered that I owed $3K in taxes – which nuked my emergency fund and a chunk of my savings. So it’s back to financial precarity.

    It’s a not-so-merry-go-round of stress, and I want off. I’ve revamped my cover letter and resume according to Alison’s book, and I’m still searching after lots of rejections. That’s OK; I get that it’s part of the process. What is so disconcerting now, though, is that I’m so tired and down about that same process. I see a job that looks like a good fit, and I know I should apply for it, but I just end up staring at the screen and wanting to go hide under the bed instead.

    Advice? Commiseration? A Swift Kick in the Pants(TM)? (though pls be gentle…)

    1. CM*

      Sounds to me like you need a break. Can you give yourself a guilt-free month off before you go back to job searching?

    2. CheeryO*

      I can commiserate for sure. I know it doesn’t help, but try to remind yourself that this is just a blip in the scheme of things. I’m sure the last two years have felt like a loooong time, but you could get a great job tomorrow, and then it would all be a horrible memory. Do whatever you can to stay positive, because a crappy attitude WILL seep into your interviews (ask me how I know!). Try to prioritize your self-care – get enough sleep, eat good food, exercise if you can. If you need a change of scenery, maybe work on applications at a coffee shop or at the library.

      And I agree with CM that a break could be helpful – even a week or so would be great, if you can swing it financially.

    3. MissDisplaced*

      I’m sorry you’re going through this. I know it’s hard, but I’ve found that persistence is key to finding a new job or getting one. That doesn’t mean you have to do it every day, but try to carve out some dedicated time (maybe 2-4 hours) at least once a week to send out your resumes. And keep Indeed updated! That way you can easily scroll through the new jobs daily, and just save them to apply later.

      I’ve become quite good at job searching over the last few year because I’ve had to.

  165. EC*

    Any advice for a leader who has millennials/gen Z-ers on their team for creating a “team as family” atmosphere? I work at a non-profit.

    I’ve led different generations and these two age groups in particular seem to expect more of an actual friendship with their leader rather than just being okay with a boss/employee dynamic (think: they want to hang out after hours, me being more vulnerable, etc). It takes a lot of energy to lead this age. I’m a millennial too — i would just never expect this type of dynamic with my boss.

    What could I do that would create that family dynamic and still have them respect me as their boss — and not completely drain my emotional tank?

    1. fposte*

      Are you sure you have to fulfill these expectations? For that matter, what exactly are you hearing from the team to suggest they want them? If it’s just that they’re always “Aw, EC, come join us!” if they’re going out for drinks, I think you can take that as pro forma (though maybe a few times a year join them for drinks, if everybody else goes).

    2. Judgment day*

      As a leader, you get to set the tone that you want. I’d say you are allowed to think about what’s best for achieving your vision and goals and less about fulfilling their desires as long as you are being a fair and ethical boss.

      However, one thing my office has done is establish weekly check-ins / sharing time that is light-hearted and gives people a chance to share without getting too personal. I’m fine with an impersonal workplace too but a lot of people I work with also seem to want closer relationships. Each week, we set aside about 20 minutes for a team check-in where each person answers a question, such as “What’s a great book you recently read?” or “What was your first job?” I think this allows people to feel like they’re being recognized as people and not just workers while also not getting too personal or family-like (ick).

    3. Psyche*

      Boundaries are good. You don’t need to make yourself their friend and be vulnerable. They need to adjust to what work is actually like. You could organize a few group events like an after work happy hour or team lunch but you don’t need to completely change your leadership style to suit them.

    4. That Girl From Quinn's House*

      Boundaries are good, but you want to make sure people are comfortable enough with you that when something goes sideways or something weird happens, they feel comfortable telling you about it. Otherwise, you won’t find out about mistakes/errors/ugly harassment/personal issues that are affecting work until they’ve let it really fester and cause problems by hiding it from you.

      If people like you and trust you, they’ll start bringing you their personal questions, and you can prepare some canned answers in advance like, “I see how that’s difficult, but that’s not an appropriate discussion for work,” or “I can’t tell you what to do in that situation, but I can help you identify some people/places who would be able to give you more help,” or even “Yes, I have been in that situation and I’m happy to share my experience and advice,” depending on how much mentoring you’re up to doing.

  166. Ugh*

    So, it looks like my boss won’t be fired. Deciding factor is, my assistant manager and the student employee he abuses the most both covered for him, because “What would we do if he were gone? He’s too important and hard to replace.” So, HR doesn’t have the evidence they need. But, during the investigation, some things came out, like him talking about wanting to strangle a student employee (the same one who covered for him), him yellinh at the assistant manager in public, and him making a ton of comments about my weight behind my back (he’s done it front of me once or twice, which I failed to tell HR, but apparently he does it when I’m gone constantly). So, he’s going to come back from suspention, and I can never respect him again. Like, this is clearly a “find another job” situation, but the absolute best time to quit is December. I’m a student GIS tech now, and I’m taking advanced GIS in my grad school program this Fall semester, then TAing in the Spring semester, and given my finances, I don’t want to work during Spring. I plan to just TA and look for a paid Summer GIS internship. I leave for my study abroad in one week and get back mid-July, so I can’t look for a job before then, and I don’t know if anyone wants to hire a GIS tech who will quit in December, and who is currently doing the advanced coursework.

    Am I wrong about this? Is there a type of job I can look for to avoid dealing with a boss I have zero respect for until December?

    1. Thankful for AAM*

      I think student and retail jobs expect you will not stay long term? There is a lot to be said though for sticking around and learning to be detached about the boss and the circus that is that workplace. If you are learning coping skills that wont serve you well at your next employer or if working with him is just too stressful, then leaving is better. But if you can just be detached, there is power in that.

    2. NotAPirate*

      Retail and Bartending/hostess/server/dishwasher positions all rotate people in and out frequently with no set hiring season. Retail does pick up in november and december. If you can stick with job to January retail might be a good fit. Less stable hours but nannying afterschool care or babysitting or dogwalking or proofreading or trabscribing dictation all good short term too.

  167. Boba tea*

    Anyone with employment immigration knowledge would be greatly appreciated. This one is for my partner who got H1B visa with his current company. He’s allowed to work for another 5 years but he plans to find a new job where hopefully they’ll sponsor him for a green card (the current company offers it but that means he’ll need to stay for another 5 years and we live apart so he decides to find a new job where i am ) He is a software engineer btw. I was wondering how should he prepare for interview knowing he needs to be sponsored down the line? I know in online application , they ask if you needs sponsoring of not and if you click No, chances are they wont even look at your application ( I work in a different field) How about for tech industry where they employ so many foreign workers? Is that an automatic rejection if you click Yes to that question or? How do you know if the company does sponsoring, is that something they put out there or you need to ask? If you do need to ask, then when is an appropriate time? It’s not a deal breaker since he has a few more years to work but if he can find one that say they can help, it’ll be great. The current company is his first company which helped him to go from OPT to H1B so he isnt that knowledgable moving forward with the plan to find a new job. Any engineers or foreign engineers or just anyone with knowledge in this area can chime in? I appreciate it!

  168. Surgical Maybe*

    I recently received a job offer! Yay!

    I might be having surgery right after my start date! Nay!

    I already mentioned this to the hiring manager, who said it was fine and to work with HR on it, so my question is…how exactly do I work with HR on this? What do I say and what do I ask for? Benefits kick in on the first day of the pay period following your start date, so I’m not worried about insurance; I am worried about not qualifying for FMLA and my job not technically being protected for the 2-3 weeks I may be out. Do I work this into my formal offer letter somehow to get it in writing?

    This is my second job and for my first job, I just took the default salary, benefits, etc. offered to me with no negotiation, so I have no idea how to handle this. Any help appreciated!

    1. fposte*

      I think it would be unusual for this to be covered in a formal offer letter, which a lot of places don’t even provide at all. I think you’d be fine with an emailed acknowledgment that you’ll be out the first week and clarification of how pay/sick days will work–will you be burning through your PTO for this, going unpaid, or just going on payroll but recuperating?

      1. Surgical Maybe*

        Thank you! I was under the impression that formal offer letters were A Thing, so thank you also for clarifying that. I will email the HR person with questions about how pay/sick time will work. I’m hoping I won’t have to have the surgery at all (it’s a wait-and-see thing) but I figure it’s better to plan for the worst.

  170. AuntieMaim*

    What is reasonable vs unreasonable in terms of rearranging your schedule to accommodate international clients?

    I’m currently an implementation/onboarding department of one and our clients are all over the world. This week was a little hectic, with three days of 7AM calls in a row (two with Spain, one with India). If I’m onboarding someone in APAC, late night/evening calls are not uncommon as well. I don’t have any frame of reference for this, the only other person in my company who does something similar is my boss, who is one of the owners of the company and works around the clock.

    Those of you who work with international clients, what do your hours look like? How do you juggle client needs across time zones while also getting some sleep?

    2. The Man, Becky Lynch*

      I’ve always been extremely flexible with international clients. If you need to come in early, you do it. Stay late, you do it. However it means adjusting your schedule so that you’re still only working a reasonable length of time. If you cannot arrange it so you can come in say 2 hours late, to stay 2 hours later, or 3 or 4 hours whatever, then you’re overworked iMO

  171. I Play for Work*

    I shared this at the “Helicopter Parent” thread, but I’m just throwing this out there: It is NEVER appropriate to “stalk” someone in an effort to get a job. No matter what the excuse.

    work in a completely male-dominated field in a very desirable and supposedly “fun” company. Every year, we have a slew of wannabe interns and hires knocking at our door because OMG I WANNA MAKE GAMES.
    Just two weeks ago, I was in a coffee shop and a woman stopped me to say, “I know you work at (company).”
    I asked how she knew. She said, “Well, I sat in front of their offices and watched people come and go and then saw that you always carried (brand cup) coffee and I had to go to a few of (that shop) to find you but I have!”
    I was really skeeved out. She then hands me her son’s resume and says “my son just graduated with a degree in computer science and he lives for video games so could you get him an interview?”
    I left the resume right there on the table in front of her and told her if her son had any interest, he needed to apply online like anyone else.
    She followed me to my car, telling me her son “has autism and can’t handle the pressure of applying only to be rejected.”
    I told her I was leaving and the conversation was over.
    She flipped me off as I drove away.

    1. CoveredInBees*

      When you put the word stalk in quotation marks, I assumed you were going to write about an online pest. What you described merits no quotation marks. That qualifies as stalking. I’m flabbergasted on your behalf and glad you were able to tell her no on the spot.

    2. The Man, Becky Lynch*

      Dang! I’m glad you stood your ground here and didn’t just take the resume to shred it privately. She’s not doing her son any favors, there are routes you can take when you have a child with autism or other issue that makes the traditional pathways difficult. This is not the way to do it, as you know all too well.

      I like how she was really classy in the end too.

    3. annakarina1*

      That’s really creepy that she was watching you that closely to stalk you at your coffeeshop of choice, and then tried to grossly use her son’s autism as a sympathy move to get you to take his resume. My mom works with kids with autism and would be horrified by that. I’m glad she didn’t bother you any further, and I’m sorry that happened to you.

    4. LGC*

      …like, she does know that in the year of our Lord 2019 there are hiring programs designed specifically for people with autism, right? I’m boggling at all of this (way to go on totally killing this guy’s chances at getting hired at your company, Terrible Mom!), but even Microsoft has a program designed for autistic people.

      I feel bad for the guy, though. If my mom ever pulled anything remotely like that with me and I found out about it I’d be horrified. Fortunately, my mom knows this.

  172. Insect purse*

    Happy Friday all! My boss semi-voluntarily resigned and her last day is next week. She was here less than a year and didn’t make much of an impact, generally seeming to prefer online shopping to actual work. Needless to say, I am not viewing this as any great loss! However, I do think she is a nice (if supremely awkward) person and I am empathetic to some degree. Is there anything I can do on her last day to convey I wish her the best without being disingenuous? Like a card or pastries or something? Or should I just keep my head down and keep it simple with a “best wishes” on my way out the door? I know the whole week is bound to be a little uncomfortable and I can ride it out, but I’d love advice if anyone has gone through something similar before!

    1. CM*

      I think a small gesture like a card or a little gift would be nice. I’d ignore the “semi-voluntarily” part and treat it like anybody else who’s leaving.

      1. fposte*

        I wouldn’t give a boss of under a year a gift when she left, though. Maybe I’m cheap, but I wouldn’t move into gifts until it was a multi-year and really good relationship boss.

        1. Psyche*

          It depends on the gift. Bringing in baked good or chocolate is a nice gesture and not expensive.

    2. fposte*

      I think a card is fine if you really liked her, but this sounds more like you feeling awkward on her behalf than any specific desire to fete her. I’d just send her along with your warmest wishes.

      1. Insect purse*

        I hadn’t thought of it as feeling awkward on her behalf, but I think you’re exactly right. Thank you!

  173. MsChanandlerBong*

    I decided to go back to school and finish my degree. Started on June 1 and plan to be done by May 31 of next year (a lot of my old credits transferred, so I only have 54 credits remaining). The reason I went back to school is because I am tired of feeling stuck. On most days, I don’t hate my job. I have an amazing coworker who has turned into a good friend. My boss is also a decent guy, but he’s cheap. I understand the realities of running a small business with razor-thin margins, but I can’t continue to work somewhere that has not given me so much as an extra nickel per hour in the past three years even though I continue to take on more and more responsibility. My boss is always looking for the cheapest hire, not the best hire. Right now, with no degree, I’m willing to stay because I know I’m not competitive without one. But once I have that degree in hand, I plan to start my job search.

    I do know a degree is not a magic pill, but I do think I will qualify for more jobs with it; for example, a current HR opening with the city government requires three years of experience and a bachelor’s; I exceed the experience requirement, but I can’t even make it past the initial screen without checking the degree box. I’ve even missed out on freelance writing opportunities b/c of a lack of a degree–even though I have 15 years of experience writing the type of content described in the job posting.

    1. LaDeeDa*

      In the online applications that ask for a degree, do they have a drop down that asks for the status of degree? Is “in progress” an option? If so… go ahead and apply.

      1. MsChanandlerBong*

        Not for this city job, but that is a good tip. I don’t want to be TOO particular about jobs, but health insurance is a concern since I have chronic health issues. My husband’s employer pays 75% of his premium but nothing toward mine. So it would be AMAZINGLY helpful if I could get a job with the city/state government or one of the two local health systems. All four contribute at least something toward your premium, so I could get an employee-only plan for less than we are paying now, and I would get other benefits as well (current company offers no real benefits, just $100 a month toward a marketplace plan if you buy one on your own, no paid holidays, no life or disability insurance, etc., and the 401(k) match is only 4% of your *contribution* instead of your salary). Even if I took a bit of a pay cut, we’d make out better in the long run.

    2. Pam*

      Congratulations! I work with lots of returning/wrapping up degree students. What I hear back is that the degree definitely made a difference

  174. What's with Today, today?*

    Send cover letters.
    I’m on a five-person hiring committee for an Executive Director level position. We met Monday to finalize the job posting, which does not ask for cover letters. I mentioned we should include that, and three of the other five all said they wanted to leave cover letters off of the posting because “If the candidate doesn’t just KNOW they should send one, that will say a lot about them and their professional knowledge.” The other member of the committee had no opinion, and I got over-ruled.

      1. fposte*

        Yeah, it doesn’t bode well for their other relationships that they’re into “You should just know without being told!”

    2. What's with Today, today?*

      Let me clarify, I think most people just KNOW to send them. But I don’t think asking for applicants to submit “resumes,” with no mention of cover letters should lead to a candidate to be penalized for not sending one.

      1. That Girl From Quinn's House*

        I’ve applied to jobs where the applicant tracking system has no way to upload a cover letter, and you don’t necessarily figure that out until you’ve completed the submission or it’s too far to go back and attach one to the resume PDF. If I wrote one, I want to send it along! So if a cover letter is wanted, you should have a clear space for it.

    3. LaDeeDa*

      Some companies don’t want a cover letter, if they don’t ask, I wouldn’t send. Ask if you want it.

      1. MsChanandlerBong*

        Yeah, my company used to allow applicants to upload a resume and a cover letter. They took the cover-letter option away about six months ago to take some of the pressure off the person doing the screening. I don’t agree with getting rid of the requirement–We’re hiring writers. It would be helpful to see how they write!–but I got overruled.

        1. Fortitude Jones*

          That’s insane for writing positions – candidates absolutely should have to write cover letters for those. I may be biased in saying that considering both my current grandboss and former grandboss at my last job told me they hired me on the strength of my cover letter, and current grandboss said he told the HR recruiter to start screening out anyone who didn’t write one since he loved mine so much (they were hiring two people for my current role), but seriously – some writing jobs don’t ask for writing samples (my last job didn’t), so how would you know whether the applicant could actually do the things they claimed on their resume without it?

    4. JustMyImagination*

      I have a confession. I’m at my 4th company in the last 13 years and I have never ever submitted a cover letter. In my last position I had hiring responsibilities and cover letters were never even forwarded from HR.

    5. AnonyMoosewithTea*

      In my industry, if someone says they don’t want a cover letter, they don’t want a freaking cover letter because they are too busy for that stuff. (They’ll usually ask for a memo writing sample instead). I always follow the instructions. I guess at that level, I wouldn’t get the job you’re hiring for. ;) Anyway, I agree with you. Ask for what you want!

    6. Miss Pantalones en Fuego*

      So if I were applying I’d think that for some weird reason you don’t want letters, because most sane companies have very specific instructions on applying. Which would lead to me being rejected because I didn’t read your mind and thought it would be presumptuous to send one anyway. Hmph.

  175. Catsaber*

    How do you get experience and on-the-job training when there’s too much work to do? It’s a catch-22 situation.

    My boss is very supportive of my desire to become a database administrator. We’re trying to find things for me to do and time to do it. But at the end of the day, there’s just not enough people here to do all the work, and I get stuck with all the stuff no one on my team wants to do – because I lack experience doing the technical things I want to do. I want more technical experience, but I spend most of my time doing more customer-facing, communications, admin-type stuff. When an opportunity comes up where I could get the experience, the business users want it done fast, so then I don’t get to do it. I believe my manager when he says he wants to help me reach my career goals, but often we get overruled when it comes to priorities. So here I am, not getting the experience because I don’t have the opportunity, because I don’t have the experience, blah blah blah.

    My parents and friends have suggested I study this stuff on my own time, but I have two small children and I work full time. I am exhausted and I don’t want to spend my free time at home doing these things. But is that what it’s going to take if I can’t carve out the time at work?

    1. AnonyMoosewithTea*

      Can you ask your boss if you can hire an intern? Then give them all the lower-level stuff so that you can concentrate on the stuff you really want? If you’re worried about managing an intern, see if you can get someone at the grad-level. They’re usually more mature and can handle you being a little more “hands-off” (so that you can focus on actually learning the skills you want to learn.)

      1. Catsaber*

        That’s a good suggestion, the tricky part is jsut finding the right intern! I’m at a university and we had a work study last year, and he was not great. When I gave him those tasks to do, he balked at it and procrastinated, and then turned in poor work that I had to redo. So it was no help. Neither my boss nor I could actually discipline him because he was part of some special program where his actual bosses were in a different department.

        That guy is gone now, and so is that program – so the next work study we’re hiring will be OUR OWN. I’m definitely going to emphasize the need for this person to be able to take on those tasks, and do them competently.

  176. CoveredInBees*

    Can anyone recommend a resource for learning SQL that they have experience with? I’ve tried Code Academy and found it to move too slowly since I already know basic (not BASIC) coding concepts. I know there are a lot of options out there but would love a recommendation based on something you’ve used.

    1. Steggy Saurus*

      I used Larry Ullman’s PHP and MySQL for Dynamic Web Sites: Visual QuickPro Guide. It was a few years ago, so I used a previous edition, but I think it’s up to the 5th edition now. Loved it, learned a lot by using the accompanying downloaded lessons from his website. I think he broke down the information really well.

    3. LGC*

      In my case, I hacked and used W3C for reference. But I tend to learn mostly by reverse engineering stuff.

      If you can get read only access to a database (or access to a training database), that’ll work wonders.

  177. JP*

    This is more of a “I can’t believe it and I just need to tell somebody” situation. I left my job last month for a new job elsewhere, and someone internal was promoted to fill my position, leaving her position open. We flew a candidate out from out of state (I work in a public library so this sort of thing is A Big Deal) and offered her the position, didn’t hear back for a few days. We then got an email declining the offer, saying her current position (out of state…when allegedly she was trying to move here to join her husband who is already living here) offered her a promotion and a raise.

    Well, fast forward to today when I was scrolling through old posts in a professional Facebook group and I saw her name commenting on a post from the day after we offered her the job, saying “I’m like 99% positive I’m going to quit my job next week without a backup.” What the hell!? Bullet dodged.

  178. Red Sky*

    With all the previous posts about dog friendly offices or bring your dog to work day, I’m wondering about cats and other non-canine companions. I know many of us have cat companions when we’re working at home, but does anyone bring their cat, or other non-canine companion, to work? If so, how does that go? Or do you frequent a business that has a cat-friendly policy? I’ve seen various library cats, trucker cats, bookstore cats and bodega cats on the internet. Irl I’ve frequented one auto shop that had an adorable tuxedo shop cat and my local vet has a office cat who is super friendly and chill and I just want to steal him (I would never). I’m always enchanted when I run into these cats in various professional settings.

    1. Beautiful, talented, brilliant, powerful musk ox*

      As a cat owner, I’d be hesitant. Cats are territory-focused creatures and most don’t love their territories changing a lot. A store cat is different because they generally live at the store and aren’t being trucked around.

      Obviously, some cats are cool with it, but most probably wouldn’t be. Plus, cats aren’t as…trainable. Like, my cat knows good and damn well that she can’t be on the counters and even knows to get down if I say her name and point to the ground…but she still is on the counters a bunch. I mean, some are more trainable than others, but cats in general kind of do what they want. I can’t imagine the chaos I’d have if I brought her to work…hahaha…

      1. Red Sky*

        I can see the HR complaints now:
        Frustrated Coworker: Greg from accounting keeps knocking things off my desk.
        HR: And?
        FC: Well, he’s an asshole, can’t you do anything?
        HR: ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ He’s a cat…

    2. Insect purse*

      I think about this all the time. My cat would freaking LOVE to sit on my lap all day in my warm and sunny shared office. I’ve only really seen them in retail environments though!

    3. Bunny Girl*

      I have a couple bookstores in my area that I frequent that have multiple store cats. They are mostly older and have been asleep napping in the sun every time I’ve been in. I do have cat allergies though, so even though I frequent those stores, I don’t stay in them for very long because I start to feel unwell. I think that would be the biggest issue. According to Google, cat allergies are twice as common as dog allergies so that would really be something to consider, especially if your business welcomed customers and you wanted those customers to stay long.

      And despite my allergies, I do have a cat myself! I got one of the ones that was considered more allergen friendly and I take some precautions and it’s worked out well. But I wouldn’t bring her into work. As mentioned, it’s harder to train and contain cats than dogs. Plus my cat is very, very vocal and would drive everyone nuts. But still, I think there are some places where it works, like bookstores and libraries. I do appreciate a warning though before I go in so I can maybe take an extra allergy pill or something.

    4. Free Meerkats*

      We’ve had office cats as long as I’ve been at my workplace (28 years next month.) They’ve typically been semi- or fully-feral that have been dumped in our area; that’s gotten worse since the animal shelter moved onto the island. Many have gone home with one of us to forever homes.
      They are our rodent control system.

      1. Red Sky*

        Oh, this reminds me of my dentist. There’s a large bamboo wooded area bordering their parking lot where a bunch of feral cats live/hang out. Someone feeds them and I believe they’ve been TNR’d. Every time I go for a cleaning the hygienist and I have a conversation about the cat colony’s goings on and the various cat personalities.

    5. Wicked Witch of the West*

      I had my own, home-based, professional office for 35 years. I also had, for about 15 of those years, two very chill and friendly office cats. The cats thought clients came to see them. It was sort of true. Things that could have been handled by phone or FAX required an office visit to play with the cats. The cats were also generous with their lap time.
      I don’t think it would work in a larger office setting due to the personality differences in cats.

      1. Red Sky*

        “The cats thought clients came to see them

        I would totally make an office appt just to see the cats.

    6. The Man, Becky Lynch*

      My cat would EAT MY FACE if I tried this. He loathes even the couple block ride to the vet and we moved 20 minutes away…he urinated on himself and hid for a couple of days post-move.

      Cats who are at stores/in trucks live there, they don’t move from home to store.

      We had cats at a place I worked before. They were working cats. It was a rural setting, prone to mice. They had a cat door to get in out of the elements and where their food was. They once left me a bush bunny leg as a present right next to their food dish.

      1. Red Sky*

        I had this one ginger cat who adopted us and wasn’t fazed by anything. He never met a stranger, dogs feared him, and he’d tolerate kidhandling with this martyred, yet somehow, patient look on his little face. Car rides were his jam; we drove halfway across country with him perched on a pillow, just chillin, watching the scenery go by. The vet loved him because he was so easy going.

        Admittedly, based on his condition (3 bb’s embedded in his bones, crushed then badly healed pelvis and fang half knocked out) he’d had a rough life before he came to us, so maybe anything he encountered post adoption was an improvement? But yeah, based on my experience he’s the exception to the rule. and the only cat I could see taking to an office. RIP furry buddy.

    7. All Hail Queen Sally*

      The humane society in my city has a program where they loan shelter cats out to businesses for socializing and exposure to the public in hopes of increasing adoptions. It sure works at the yarn store where I work. We have re-homed at least 60 cats in the past few years. The first question anyone asked when they come in is “Do we have a cat today?” I love it. Working with yarn is wonderful but working with yarn and cats is fabulous!

  179. TheAdmin*

    TLDR: I’m trying to encourage my boss to grant me access to her email inbox (and idea that SHE first brought up)

    I was an administrative assistant serving a specific department in my company, with Kate as the department leader. I supported 3 different managers with day-t0-day tasks, but Kate was mostly hands off and took care of things herself (she’d occasionally ask for help with setting up meetings, ordering lunch, travel, etc.). Then Kate was promoted to be the most senior Executive of our entire company. A position as her assistant (dedicated almost exclusively to her) opened up, and she encouraged me to apply for it. I did, was offered the job, and accepted, and have been working in the role for a few months.

    I feel as though things have been going really well! We are beginning to understand each others’ working styles, and I’m getting pretty good at anticipating her needs and just taking care of things when they come up. It also seems like we are usually on the same page as far as how to handle different situations. With all of Kate’s new responsibilities, she barely has time during the work day to do much other than going from meeting to meeting (I manage her calendar, so I know she usually only gets an hour or two to herself each day).

    A few weeks ago, she brought up the idea of granting me access to her email inbox in order to help her filter through all the messages that she gets. Obviously, this is a huge deal, and I’m very flattered at the amount of trust she has in me. I think she is a little hesitant to just give me full access without guidelines (and I agree with this!), so I found an article that talked about different ways Executives can delegate their email to assistants, and shared it with her. We talked through a few of the options/setup (setting categories/flags or forwarding rules, shared folders, etc.), and she said she was going to think more about it, but that she was a little worried about “letting go of some control” – which I totally understand; as I said, she was pretty self-sufficient even in her previous role. Also, she’s never had a dedicated assistant like this before.

    That was a few weeks ago, and now she’s making comments again about how bogged down she is with emails and how she doesn’t even get to read them until she gets home at night (it’s not unusual to see her responding to something at 11pm, or on the weekends). I really want to help her by taking some of this responsibility, but I don’t want it to come off like I’m pressuring her; I just really think I could add time/value for her if I started managing her inbox.

    Any other admins out there that have full/partial access to their boss’ email that have advice about this? How do you approach the management of someone else’s email (do you use flags/categories, folders, etc)? And any tricks for keeping your boss “in control” while still helping them get through a slog of emails that don’t require action from them?

    1. valentine*

      Agree to use folders (including a to-delete one) so she can make sure you’re on the same page. Or maybe she retains delete control. If you haven’t already, suggest filters you’d like to use. But suggest starting next Monday because I think she may go for a concrete date, but won’t choose one herself.

  180. who was THAT*

    I sent in a letter a while ago about asking if it’s ethical to not take on more work even if you know you could handle it, and I’m so thrilled today! I spoke with my boss this morning and laid out my increased duties, what all I’m doing, and how I feel my value has increased and she told me to write up an email with all my accomplishments essentially and she would take it to grandboss to approve a raise!! I don’t know exactly how much I’ll get, or even technically that it’s guaranteed, but she indicated that she would do her best to get me something and I trust her on this, so I’m excited!!! I hope within a few months I get to send Alison an update with a new raise and maybe even a new title, as that was something else we casually discussed.

  181. Beautiful, talented, brilliant, powerful musk ox*

    So, my workplace is officially business casual, though we can get away with a lot without any raised eyebrows (and we do one of those jeans fundraiser things, so most of us wear jeans a lot). They allow shorts if the temperature is going to be above 95F and since I live in Dallas, that’ll be most of the summer. The men wear khakis and even cargo shorts, but I’m trying to figure out what I (a woman) can wear. Bermuda shorts or something like that? Most women don’t take advantage of this policy, but I’d really like to some days. I just know my usual denim shorts aren’t what I’d deem office-appropriate.

    1. Psyche*

      What about a skirt? There are some nice denim or khaki skirts available if you prefer that type of fabric.

      1. Beautiful, talented, brilliant, powerful musk ox*

        I mean, I can wear skirts year-round…ha…

    2. Catsaber*

      I would definitely go with some bermuda shorts – sometimes Old Navy has them in the “pixie pant” woven-stretch fabric. You could also do a chino short in the longer length. I’d stick to black and neutral colors.

      I was just at Target and they had a lot of options with the A New Day and Prologue lines, which are geared more towards office wear. Some were a bit too short for me…but you could also do a loose short in a woven fabric – they had some with tie-waists and things like that. Wide-leg culottes are another option.

      I am very excited about this topic because I also live in Dallas, so I FEEL YOU ON THE SUMMER WORK CLOTHES.

      1. Beautiful, talented, brilliant, powerful musk ox*

        I’ll have to check out Target stuff. I don’t know what it is about those Pixie pants, but they never fit me right. I’m pretty sure I’ve tried on shorts as well. I can’t figure it out.

      2. Auntie Social*

        Talbots is good about longer shorts and also skirts. I’ve gotten a number of them on ebay, too (I’m thrifty).

      3. JeanB in NC*

        I would stick to bermuda shorts or capris. When I lived in Dallas, I usually wore skirts all summer but I’m thinking this year I’m going to wear bermuda shorts to work (I work at a very casual private school).

    3. MissDisplaced*

      Bermuda shorts that come to the knee are the best bet. You don’t want to be showing thigh.
      Capri’s or Skirts. How about a loose linen pant? And the old Southern staple Seersucker. Like a seersucker pant with a white t-shirt?

    4. Retail*

      I found a great pair of mens shorts at goodwill! They’re not too long but are long enough to be comfortable.

      We technically have a length rule at work but it’s more common sense. A lot of the women wear mens shorts that hit the knee or just above because we need pockets and deep ones. I wore a shorter womens pair this weekend and no one cared. But my job is not business casual. We should strive to be clean but that’s not practical.

      Look at men’s shorts though!

  182. Lynne879*

    I work at a Big Retail Store. Two of my coworkers have spoken to two of our managers about our Slacker Coworker who is so slow at his work that it affects everyone else’s work. For context: my department as a team gets blamed when we barely meet our daily goals, but it’s because 1) we’re understaffed and 2) because Slacker Coworker takes 3 hours to finish making a teapot while it takes everyone else 1 hour. (Slacker Coworker is not new).

    Slacker Coworker is frequently 20-30 minutes late to work and also doesn’t show up to work sometimes.

    My coworkers and I are baffled that he hasn’t been fired yet. Should I just straight up ask my managers why Slacker Coworker is still here and address my grievances? I was even going to mention just having him be moved to a different department or have him do a different task in our department that causes the least amount of damage if they can’t do that.

    What are other peoples’ experiences in dealing with slacker coworkers that affect your work?

    1. fposte*

      You can’t make management deal with him, and they’re not required to say why he hasn’t been fired yet or to address your grievances. You could add your voice to the chorus, but I wouldn’t demand explanations or provide suggestions; I’d accept that they’re going to do what they want to do and decide whether it was worth staying or not.

      1. Lynne879*

        They’ve fired other people for less egregious offenses and Slacker Coworker has already exceeded the amount limit of call outs you can make before you get fired. So should I just stay silent about my issues with Slacker Coworker?

        1. fposte*

          As I said, you can feel free to add your voice to the chorus saying he’s a problem. Just understand it may not make any difference, and that your choice is probably to stay and accept he’s there or find someplace else.

          It seems like you think that he’s only there because you haven’t spoken up, and if you said something they’d take action. That’s not likely to be the case.

          1. valentine*

            Should I just straight up ask my managers why Slacker Coworker is still here and address my grievances? I was even going to mention just having him be moved to a different department or have him do a different task in our department that causes the least amount of damage if they can’t do that.
            No to all of this. It’s way out of line.

            If Slacker were up to speed, would your numbers still be bad due to understaffing? It’s probably best to assume Slacker will outlast you at this company. So. How long will you continue like this? The one place to push back is being compared to properly staffed teams. Ask if your team target can be changed to account for that (but not for Slacker, because they know and they don’t care).

  183. wanderingwatson*

    I have my first intern starting on Monday! On my first day of work, my boss provided me a flower bouquet and it really made me feel special and welcomed. My intern is a guy, and I’m not sure that flowers would be the right gift, but I’d like to do something similar.

    Any ideas?

    (We’re already going to take him to lunch with our management team on his first day.)

    1. fposte*

      I think taking him to lunch is more than most new interns get :-). Give him a hearty welcome at lunch and that should be sufficient.

  184. AvonLady Barksdale*

    I am moving states in two weeks (less than!) and will be working from home full-time (same job). After the week I’ve had, I’m looking realllly forward to it. I have very much enjoyed some of the collaboration and chats with my co-workers, but there are a few things I will not miss one bit. Among them: kitchen cleaning duty, party planning committee meetings (I hate party planning so I don’t know how I got roped into that), groaning, persistent coughing, and bitching about workload.

    What else would you put on that list if this were to apply to you?

    1. Red Reader the Adulting Fairy*

      Temperature Wars! My industry has a preponderance of women in the vicinity of menopause – my last office flat out had “hot flash” marked on the thermostat (by them) because I was the only one in the office who wasn’t mid-50s – and I am constantly freezing in pretty much any public building or workplace. Working from home means fleece pajamas and hoodies, blankets, space heaters if needed, and doggos to keep me warm.

    2. Fortitude Jones*

      I work from home full-time now (just ended my fourth week in a new role with a new company – yay!). Things I don’t miss about being in an office:

      * being exposed to other people’s germs (OCD sufferer and contamination is one of my triggers)
      * micromanagement from grandboss – seriously, he was highly annoying, constantly coming to our desks asking the status of projects when he speaks to our managers at length about each one so should already know the answer to this
      * office politics
      * disgusting public bathrooms that inevitably run out of paper towels to dry your hands and open the door to exit with
      * overhearing the serious oversharing of most of my coworkers (most of these conversations were inane)
      * having to commute in the rain/snow/heat/freezing cold (I’m so thrilled I won’t have to walk through blizzards and ice storms anymore!)

  185. Hei Hei, the Chicken from Moana*

    My direct colleague in my department asked for an every-other-Monday a week off whereas she’d work her normal 80 hours in 9 days rather than 10. The request was declined because upper management would rather roll out some sort of program (like our work at home one day a week policy) rather than each person start asking for new schedules. But then our boss got a vacation home and is often taking Fridays off so she can spend a long weekend in the resort town. She’s obviously getting her work done, but she’ll cancel meetings just so she can go on long weekends. This feels super icky to me. Am I crazy?

    1. CBH*

      I agree that it seems a bit unfair. The only thing I could say is it it possible that this was a negociation point for your manager. If not I do think it’s quite odd that upper management will make an exception for one person but not the other. I’d be furious if that was the case. I also feel like it causes a lot of potential mix ups for example if a vacation day is planned how is that counted – is only 8 hours counted and person is still working 80? This is extreme to think but I’d be more aware of all the side deals going on.

    2. fposte*

      Is your manager working 80/9 or is she taking Fridays off with PTO? If it’s the latter, is that an option available to your colleague as well? I think taking PTO is a different thing from changing the work schedule, so it’s both a difference of policy I can understand and also a request that shouldn’t be subject to the “we want to roll out a work schedule for everybody” rule.

    3. Mediamaven*

      Is it her PTO? Doesn’t sound icky to me if it is. Also, sometimes bosses earn extra perks thanks to seniority. I wouldn’t approve everyone coming up with thier own schedules either.

      1. Hei Hei the Chicken from Moana*

        Boss is taking PTO, definitely didn’t negotiate Friday perks. Thanks for the insight, all. And the boss actually said to me that our colleague “just needs to take PTO”. It just seems a bit of a double standard given how hard she rides us in the summer which is our a busiest season. This boss has also said to me over the years that I just need to work on the weekend to show that I’m putting in extra effort.

        The other problem at play though is that she’s not only the chief of our specific department but 30% of her time as our COO which is the consiglieri to our CEO. It’s becoming a conflict of interest, IMO, but that’s a post for another day or perhaps a question for Allison.

  186. CBH*

    An organization helps our local school with some fun activities. As a result my family and I have enjoyed these activities personally and have professionally been able to recommend this organization to others.

    With the end of the school year approaching and in order to not blur any professional lines, I would like to give a small donation from our family to this small organization. How do I say I know this is not a huge donation, but my family and I would like to thank you for all you do. We hope you can use it to buy some of those bagels for your staff that we are always talking about. Does that seem rude, presumptuous or unprofessional?

    For further info whether I know this organization through the local school, as a mom or professional things are always laid back with them, it’s not very formal. I am not involved with them professionally but was able to give them some networking professional contacts.

    1. Lilysparrow*

      If they are a nonprofit, they are probably accustomed to taking donations of all sizes. I don’t think you need to over-explain or apologize for the size of the donation. Just, “Thanks for the great programs, they mean a lot to us.” Indeed, some orgs get very strict about using funds as directed by the donor, so it might be better not to mention the bagels at all, in case they need something else more.

  187. Possible Red Flag?*

    Can I get opinions as to whether my resume screams “red flag”? It’s been around 2 year since I graduated from college and realized that my job history hasn’t been as smooth-sailing as I had expected.

    6/2019 – 8/2019 [Part-Time Summer Contract Position]
    7/2017 – 1/2019 [Full-Time Job After College]
    4/2016 – 6/2017 [Part-Time Job During College]

    I have a long gap from 1/2019 to 6/2019 because I’ve been dealing with mental health issues and had a rough time finding work when I started looking in 4/2019. I was only able to get a summer position set up though I’m looking forward to it since it’ll teach me some new skills. I volunteered heavily during 2015 – 2018 but stopped once I burnt out (at least I have 300+ hours of hospital volunteering to my name?) and would prefer to not volunteer for a few years.

    But will me lacking 2+ years of being in a single role/workplace reflect badly during resume screenings? It seems that it’s frowned upon on job candidates for “job hopping”. I’ve honestly been getting those quarter-life crisis and was hoping hiring managers would give me a break… I’m currently stuck as to how to proceed career-wise because I ended up disliking the career options from my college degree.

    1. fposte*

      I think that’s getting distracted by an irrelevance; nobody is going to care about the duration of your during-college and pre-college work. Managers will see you as having had a post-college job that lasted over a year, which is fine.

      Right now your challenge is competing for entry-level or slightly above jobs, which are generally pretty competitive, and negotiating questions about your time out of the workforce, which you should prepare an answer for (it’s not necessarily a big deal, but it’s a question mark, and you should be ready to calmly answer that question). The other challenge is apparently finding where you’d like to look for jobs–can you give us some more information to see if people have any suggestions?

      1. Possible Red Flag?*

        Thank you! Would you recommend taking off the during-college job? I left it on my resumes so far because it’s the only office/admin work experience I have while my first job out of college was clinical based.

        Right now, I would appreciate a position that allows me to work in an office environment and would little to minimal customer service interaction. I’ve always had customer service related duties, whether it be volunteering or job-wise, and I’m honestly sick of trying to please horrible customers. So I was planning on using my summer job as a program assistant to gain more office skills like grant writing and basic information analysis so I can eventually get a position as an admin assistant or something similar.

        So far, I’ve explained my work gap as being busy with taking care of my family’s health needs (which is also true) but left out about my mental health. Would it be wise to also mention me taking a gap for honestly needed mental health care? I’m worried about the interviewers being turned off because “taking care of family” seems like a more common excuse. I haven’t put mention of my gap on my cover letters though – would you recommend that?

        1. fposte*

          In reverse order: no, I wouldn’t put the gap in the cover letter; that’s a “wait until asked” detail. I wouldn’t say you took time off specifically for mental health care; either you took time off for a health problem that’s now resolved, or you took time off for a family health problem that’s now resolved. Don’t go for both; pick one. BTW, I missed that the contract job was current; since you’re working now, you have even less likelihood of getting asked about the gap.

          I think it’s fine to leave on the during-college job if that’s the one that’s like the jobs you’re hoping to get.

          I’m a little confused by the intention you’re describing: administrative assistants don’t usually do much grantwriting or information analysis. Is there are field you’re looking at where that’s likelier? For that matter, is your current job in a field where you might stay, and can you find examples of jobs you’d like to aim for there?

          1. Possible Red Flag?*

            Sorry about being confusing – I have basically spent my whole college life with the intentions of going into healthcare as a practitioner. So most of the skills that I have built have been customer-service oriented and I lack hard skills.

            The current contract job is honestly something that I chose to accept because I had no other offers. It’s helping manage a summer program for a local hospital and I am definitely not planning on staying any longer in healthcare, if necessary. So I was hoping to use this opportunity to learn more about general office tasks (since half of my time will be spent doing admin work to keep the program running) and hopefully move into non-hospital/healthcare-related offices. I’m not sure what type of positions I could go for with the skills I’ll be learning in the contract position…

    2. Lynne879*

      I I think your job history looks ok since you just recently graduated from college (I say this as someone who also graduated from college a few years ago). Is it the A+ ideal job history where you stayed at the same job for 5 years and there’s no gaps between jobs? No, but I think if you explain in your cover letter that you took time off while dealing with a health related issue you’ll be ok.

      Side note: I’d also put your volunteer work on your resume, even though you’re not interested in volunteering anymore. It’ll help give you an advantage because it shows you have more experience, even if it’s just volunteer work.

      1. Possible Red Flag?*

        Thank you for your response!

        I’ve been keeping at least one volunteering experience on my resume since it’s pretty sparse other-wise and it’s been a nice conversation starter during interview at times. It’s just jarring because I spent so many college years for pre-med related extracurriculars and now I’m so eager to move out of the field.

        Would you recommend mentioning my job gap in the beginning of the cover letter? Like:

        “Dear Hiring Manager,

        I was excited to see your ad for the position… it seemed like a perfect fit based on my previous experiences. I look forward to reentering the work force after dealing with health issues for the past few months.”

        1. fposte*

          No, don’t do that. 1) you’re currently employed so you’ve already reentered the work force, and 2) that makes your health issues way too important.

          I’m guessing that this has been a bit of a hard journey for you and you feel like your job history is problematic. It’s really not–this is a very common kind of job history for a lot of entry level/early career jobs.

          1. Possible Red Flag?*

            Oh I will keep it out of my cover letter then and only address it if it comes up in interviews.

            This past year has been very anxiety-inducing for me so I really appreciate knowing that my history isn’t problematic. It’s hard for me to get much advice so I really appreciate these open threads and the community amazingly helpful.

            1. Thankful for AAM*

              If you do get asked about it, you can say I took time off to care for a family member and then gave myself a bit of time to recover.

              But I would love to hear what others suggest. And I also think your job history and interest in shifting focus is typical. I just did that and I am in my 50s! I barely mentioned it, I just focused on what i terested me about the new role/area.

    3. SciDiver*

      I seriously wouldn’t worry about the gap, and fposte is right–no need to bring it up unless someone asks you about it! I’m also right around 2 years post-college, and all of my positions up until now have been year-long contract/seasonal/part-time, meaning each job I’ve left has been expected from the get-go. If you left your last job to deal with health issues, you can bring that up when asked, but otherwise it’s not weird yet. You truly don’t need to explain anything away in your cover letters, stay focused on how you’ll be great in the role and the new skills you’ve learned in the last two years.

  188. Works in IT*

    My coworker just handed in their resignation, and as there’s a lot of overlap between what we do, I am most likely going to absorb most of their tasks. I know I can do this, but I’m fighting off a panic attack because they’re salaried. I’m an hourly contractor who isn’t authorized to work overtime, and doesn’t even get paid time off because I was hired through a contracting agency. I don’t know how long I can do both jobs without falling apart.

    My original plan was to start job hunting in six months if their “we want to create a position for you” promises hadn’t paid off by then, because I want to have a nice two year period in one job on my resume. I still want to keep to this plan because I don’t want to look like a job hopper and this is my first non retail job, but how do I survive either the next six months or until they finally get around to hiring me?

    1. Hopelessly devoted to Boo*

      I’m a part-time 25 hour week cap employee who is also absorbing the work of a co-worker who is going on family leave (and will probably never return). Always be honest and truthful about the work you can and can’t do.

      Don’t conjure a panic attack before it starts. If you think you’re going to fall apart, you will fall apart. Go into this with a positive attitude and recognize that you are going to get more work than you’re used to and you’re going to have to figure out a process and procedure to manage the tasks.

      Keep in constant contact with your boss to make sure they understand what you used to do before and what you will be doing in the future works or doesn’t work. It’s possible how you perform in this moment of time will affect their decision to create a new position and/or hire you for it.

      You’re doing well in this job, with this change can be parlayed into a future position. Don’t wait for them to suggest it, keep asking them about the new role.

    2. Kathenus*

      This might be too late for you to see it, but the key here is to reframe your, and proactively your boss’s, perspective from ‘doing both jobs’ to prioritizing which parts of the two jobs can be done in a work day/work week. Proactively communicate with your boss now about how she’d like the work of your and coworker’s jobs prioritized, or if it’s easy to do, jot down your own ideas first on what you think the priorities are of the two and how to make a work plan to address those in your hours, being clear what tasks would not be done if you are absorbing new duties. Don’t ‘try to make it work’ or wait until you’re drowning to address this. And take a page from Alison’s past advice and do this in a matter of fact way, that of course the workload will need to be adjusted when one person is taking on coverage for two roles. Good luck.

  189. ArtsNerd*

    I just need to vent.

    Tonight is my Pride celebrations — like the only thing I do to recognize Pride and the ONE event per year I go to, no excuses to back out, and of course something crashed at work (and in the arts, weekends are when the big public-facing activities happen.) I’m marketing, in the office M-Fri but today is a day off for me.

    Of course I just got a text message that there’s a big tech crash and we need to adjust our schedule but we don’t totally know what it will be yet and I have to update our website and social etc etc etc.

    I just told everyone I will be absolutely unavailable from 5pm until 10am tomorrow, and I know they’ll respect that, but I’m just so sad and angry because I’ll spend the entire night stressed out about work. It doesn’t help that they don’t make the messaging easy for me. I generally have to ask a bunch of clarifying questions before I can make the announcement so it’s still cognitively demanding.

    This isn’t the first time it’s happened and it’s never when I’m at work.

    1. valentine*

      You’re borrowing trouble. If you’re going to hold the boundary (which is great), hold it thoroughly, including with yourself. Leave work at work. Don’t give it your time until you’re back on the job.

  190. AnonyMouse*

    Is it common in certain workplaces to share the name of a customer who has complained about an employee? I sent a letter to the regional director about some issues with the property manager at my apartment complex. I found out the entire thing was forwarded to her when she emailed me asking for time to talk about the issues I had raised. Nothing was specific to my unit, just general things about the property. Even in jobs that don’t involve customer facing roles, negative feedback has remained anonymous in the majority of situations I’ve encountered. Am I overreacting to feel uncomfortable here? The fact that the person who has access to my apartment knows that I complained about her and the regional manager sees nothing wrong with the situation.

    1. Kendra*

      Just speaking as a manager, if I were in this situation and got a complaint about one of my staff, I’d go to them before speaking to the customer, and ask for their side of the story (which would almost definitely require sharing the name of the specific customer involved; I really don’t see any realistic expectation of privacy here, to be honest, unless there’s a specific privacy law like HIPAA or FERPA involved somehow).

      There are two reasons for that: one, I want to have my staff members’ backs if this is a case where the customer is making unreasonable demands (and if it’s not, I want to have a preliminary conversation with that staff member on the spot, to go over what went wrong). Second, there may be technicalities involved that they either didn’t explain to the customer, or that the customer didn’t relay back to me in their complaint. I don’t want to be caught out without all of the relevant facts when I speak to a customer who’s already upset; no good can come of that.

      Also, some people (and legal systems) automatically assume that you have the right to know who’s accused you of something, so that could be at play here, as well.

      1. AnonyMouse*

        I wasn’t expecting it here because these were mostly issues that the property manager was aware of, like they didn’t get our renewal agreements to us in the time frame required by our leases and had to give people an extension because of it, or have had issues with garbage and have sent out numerous emails to the residents about it. I’ve only had a few jobs where I was working with the public and they wouldn’t share identifying information about people making comaints, but general things. Even in a situation where you would have to be identified, I wouldn’t expect to have my entire email forwarded. I guess it’s a lesson for me then.

        1. valentine*

          Is it common in certain workplaces to share the name of a customer who has complained about an employee?
          Yes, because they are on the same team. In addition to Kendra’s reasons, it’s important to know the history between you and the property manager, what kind of tenant you are, or if a complainant is a harasser or otherwise behaves inappropriately.

          In future, don’t assume confidentiality. People talk, if only to their priest or spouse, and this is work and these are colleagues.

    2. Lilysparrow*

      Since these were general issues that were well-known to all the residents and already documented within the company (extensions, mass emails), it’s not surprising to me that the exec didn’t consider them private or personal to you.

  191. Miss Pantalones en Fuego*

    I saw a job posting that I’m interested in but it would be a huge leap, and I don’t know if I can even pretend to be qualified. However, in this country and field it is not unusual for job postings to come with an invitation to contact them with any questions before you apply. Would it be totally weird to basically write a cover letter explaining why the job interests me but also pointing out that I am lacking experience, with the aim of trying to gauge whether it is worth applying formally or not? Or should I just apply and hope for the best?

    1. Silver Fig*

      Just apply, and use your letter to address your strengths that are applicable. Why talk someone out of hiring you?

    2. Kendra*

      Here’s how I’d do it: call or email them asking for more details about the job. If it comes up (although it most likely won’t; this is a very normal kind of request to make, and you don’t have to justify it), you could tell them that you want to see if your current level of experience might be more relevant than the initial job posting made it seem (I would generally avoid calling myself “inexperienced” in a job-search context).

      That will give you more information to base decisions on; if it sounds like the job is close to things you’ve done before, even if you’re not an exactly perfect fit, I’d say to go ahead and just apply. The worst they can do is hire someone else; it’s not like they’re going to blackball you from their entire industry forever because you applied for one job you weren’t perfectly qualified for.

      Good luck!

  192. Fabulous*

    Does anyone do instructional design? My job has recently morphed into ID (a welcome change!) and I am trying to figure out how to manage my impending workload.

    Historically I’ve only worked with Team A, but now I will also support the ID efforts of Teams B, C and D too. In theory, people will submit their material and I’d just plug it into a template with an editing eye for grammar/ spelling and add design elements, but I know it’s going to entail more work and time than we anticipate – it always does.

    I think part of my problem will be that I know team A’s content front and back, having also trained to it in the past as part of my job, so I’ve been heavily involved in the creation of content too. I know nothing of Teams B-D other than they’re part of the same umbrella company. I’ll probably need to shift from the “create” mindset to a “transfer and edit” mindset. Any advice how to make the shift?

    1. periwinkle*

      As an instructional designer, I’ve worked on courses with content that might as well have been in some obscure ancient dialect for all I understood it. That’s fine. You do not need to know the content because there are subject matter experts and THEY know the content. Your role is to edit that content and arrange it into effective learning that addresses the need. In a way it’s better to not understand the content already because that puts you right into the role of the learner.

      I’ve explained to SMEs that they are the author and I am the publishing company that takes their words, binds them into an appropriate product, and delivers them to the buyers. Not a perfect analogy but honestly, it really has helped to dial down the territoriality some SMEs have over that content.

      (You will no doubt start to learn the content simply through exposure, and preferably through the SMEs explaining why X and Y are important while Z is less so. I consider this broadening of knowledge to have been a perk of the job because you learn some cool stuff.)

      1. Fabulous*

        How do you communicate when you find holes in their content? Do you find holes? Do you work with learning objectives?

  193. Anonymous For This Comment*

    Let’s say that a company creates tea, and my job is to decide what types of teabags the tea makers should create by putting together a bunch of pre-made ingredients. I pitch the idea for the tea, it gets approved, goes down the line to the tea makers. I am a level higher than the teapot makers and am more involved in overall business strategy. We’re all in the same department, all salaried full-time.

    The tea makers are pretty much at capacity and so am I and the other folks that do the same job I do. The business is making the decision to also add teacup production as a way to grow the business. One of the concerns is that adding teacups will increase our department’s workload, so part of the discussion has been ways to ensure that the workload stays manageable. Possibilities have included hiring a new person (in a role similar to mine), ways to reduce how much effort is required to design and pitch a teapot idea, how to prioritize tea so that tea makers aren’t spending all their time on lower-priority things, etc.

    My feeling is that it’s important to bring in tea makers at this stage as well so that they can voice their opinions and suggest ways in which their specific jobs could be made easier to accommodate the X number of teacups they’ll need to make on top of putting together teabags. But the other people involved in the planning are concerned that if we ask them how to make their jobs easier, it’ll devolve into a fight about not having the bandwidth for additional work, or that their suggestions will amount to cutting corners and decreasing the quality of our product.

    I find that this stance comes from a position of mistrust and I don’t like the assumptions it makes about our coworkers, who do have a sense of pride about the quality of their work. But I also understand that, from a management perspective and a business perspective, this is a necessary change, and so we can’t start a discussion that ends in, “No, we can’t take on this work.” But if I don’t have room for much additional work and I get to voice that, then I think the rest of the department should have a voice in this too–to give us their suggestions and so that they don’t feel like work is being sprung on them with no consideration.

    Is this a naive stance? Is it normal to increase workload without any input from one-half of the affected employees?

    1. Dragoning*

      I think the idea of refusing to bring in people because they might say they don’t have the bandwidth for the work they’re asking–flat out refusing to even start a conversation that might end that way–is only going to end badly.

    2. Kendra*

      Would your co-planners be willing to let you survey the tea makers outside of your planning meetings, and then bring their feedback with you? (There are a few ways to do this; if you can swing it, I’d recommend having a group meeting with as many of them as you can, because that will take up the least of your time but still give them some input, but you could also do something as informal as casual conversations with some/all of them, or as formal as an actual written or online survey if you want quantitative data as well as qualitative.)

      For what it’s worth, I don’t think the other committee members are necessarily mistrustful of your coworkers themselves, but could just feel that, in general, the more people you add to a committee, the less work tends to get done. I think you’re absolutely right that everybody with a stake in this project needs a way to be able to provide their input (assuming they want to), but they don’t necessarily need to do it in your planning committee meetings themselves.

    3. Mill Miker*

      They’re not going to not raise those issues just because they weren’t consulted when the decision was made. They’ll just be more annoyed when they do.

      Especially since the other planners are already aware of the issue enough that they’re so positive the teabag makers will raise it. That reeks of trying to maintain plausible deniability of a real issue.

      So what *will* happen when it is “discovered” that the teabag makers don’t have enough bandwidth? If there’s a solution for that, then it doesn’t matter if you invite them and they steer the conversation that way. If there’s isn’t, then it’s still a problem whether they raise it or not.

    4. Anono-me*

      The question isn’t “Should we ask 1/2 the team for feedback on this idea?”. The question is “Do we want the feedback now or after we have invested $$$$and months of work in a bad plan?”.

      I’d also like to ask if you think there might be a social/professional class issue contributing to this attitude?

  194. Temperance*

    My boss is not working today. Totally fine, except we’re snowed under and she keeps checking in for status updates on various things that aren’t actual priorities. And I can’t get anything done because she keeps checking the status.

    Please share in my frustration.

    1. Lady Jay*

      Oooo, I share your frustration!! I’m working on a couple projects right now that involve other people’s involvement; I emailed them earlier this week for their part of the project, and . . . crickets.

      Did I mention the projects were time-sensitive?

      Urrrrrrgggghhh.

    2. MsChanandlerBong*

      OMG, yes! Occasionally, my coworker will message me on Slack to ask if Urgent Task is almost done. I want to say, “If I didn’t have to keep stopping to answer your messages about whether it’s done, I’d be done by now!”

  195. IT Wondering*

    Why do so many people have trouble with web conferencing? I work in IT, and most of my colleagues have at least 10 years experience in IT as a career, and have spent most of their lives working with technology (computers, AV, etc). Put them in front of any piece of technology, they’ll figure it out, and know what to do next time they encounter it or anything like it. Except for web conferencing, it seems.

    Every. single. time….someone can’t figure out how to mute/unmute. Someone can’t get their headphones to work. Someone doesn’t understand the dial-in line. It’s like….they suddenly just become flailing puppies, flopping all over the computer. And the worst part is, once they do figure it out – they don’t remember it! One of my teammates keeps on trying to join our web conference meetings without any sort of headset – just computer mike and speakers – and gets this horrible feedback echo and claims he has no idea how to fix it. The solution: $10 earbuds with a mike, plug it in, YOU’RE GOOD TO GO. And yet this happens with every conference he gets one. 10-20 minutes is wasted with every meeting.

    Thanks for listening to my rant, because I’m about to go on another web conference in about 10 minutes.

    1. Spool of Lies*

      This is both relatable af and a great cold open for a workplace comedy ala The Office.

      Sadly, I do not know why web conferencing causes mass ineptitude among otherwise competent people but it is an epidemic.

      1. valentine*

        If you sent them a reminder list, would they follow it? Can you send him a headset each time?

    2. EddieSherbert*

      I so feel your pain. I’m in marketing, but for an IT company. We figure out everything from networking to software bugs to printers every darn day… and yet the web conference defeats us.

      Maybe it’s a curse or something?

    3. AnotherAlison*

      I run a few web conferences several times a week, and my team uses my number at other times. I have found it much easier now that I have my own WebEx account. I used to have to use my dept. coordinator’s. It was annoying because he had to set it up and make changes, so extending it or moving it 30 minutes was a major PITA. But, what was also annoying was that WebEx would sometimes think I was Ex-dept. coordinator and not let me log in as current dept. coordinator, and then I couldn’t start the call, etc.

      I also had an issue once when the international number my project coordinator gave me would not work. I had weekly international calls & we could not work it out. We had to go back to the web ex hosting company twice to get this fixed. Now I forget what the issue was, but it was extremely irritating that it was so difficult to get resolved.

    4. Seven hobbits are highly effective, people*

      I feel like part of it is that web conferences are something where it’s important to pre-stage and make sure that everything is working properly before they start, and there isn’t really a norm that people actually do that. It’s not so much a tech task as a broadcasting task, and that’s a different mindset than most other tech tasks. (I come from a background where I’ve done both theater/video/performance stuff and IT-type stuff, and it’s the performance mindset that’s much more useful for conference call prep.)

      The people who run our current departmental meetings never open the online meeting room early, so it’s really irritating how the first 5-10 minutes of any meeting is taken up with troubleshooting because no one could try and get those bugs out in advance. (I use the test room that I know about because I poked around on the online meeting room company’s website, but that is not something other people would particularly know to do.)

      Better-run meetings I used to deal with the organizer would make a point of starting the meeting 15 minutes early, with the idea that we could troubleshoot and socialize before the proper meeting start time.

      Of course, now my main pain point is an org I work with that tries to have hybrid meetings with most people in person but also some online. They keep trying to do this with a random laptop and no one specifically tasked with facilitating the remote participation and not otherwise needed for the meeting. It does not work, because you can’t just set up a laptop and call it good. I have given detailed feedback about how to fix this, but nothing changes.

      1. Thankful for AAM*

        I do school online. Before the program started they required that we take a tech prep and test class AND they require that everyone log in to the synchronous class early and follow the equip test procedure.

        We also have a way to ask tech support questions outside the actual class.

        My IT son sets these up for his workplace, he goes in early and makes sure everything works from his location and with all remote attendees then he stays to make sure it all works. I think this is the only way it will work.

    5. NoLongerYoungButLotsWiser*

      SO pervasive. At a recent off-site, we were invited (voluntarily) to participate in a talent show. We put on a virtual web conference, with each one of us exhibiting (both acting out and with a posterboard as the title) the worst behavior/scenario – barking dog, delivery doorbell, can’t get headset to work, forgets to mute… you get the picture.

      It was well received.

  196. kate*

    I am going on the academic job market in a few months for the first time and even though my chances of getting an interview the first time out are low, I have purchased a suit. I am a queer femme offbeat kind of person and it took me forever to find something I could imagine myself doing a full-day campus visit in but I’m worried about it not reading professional enough. It’s linen, a jacket and an a-line skirt, both with a colorful striped pattern. What do you all think, AAM? I’ll link to a catalog picture of it in the comments.

      1. Psyche*

        I can see the pictures now. I think it really depends on how you accessorize and what you wear under it. It is definitely on the casual side and I would hesitate to wear it to an interview in business school or law school. I could see it for an interview in a science department if it is dressed up a bit.

    3. TechWorker*

      I can’t view the link in Europe (sad times :( I love colourful clothing!) but I think attitude also makes a big difference. If you’re really worried you could try to find a charity shop outfit that’s more conservative for interviews and then branch into clothes that are more ‘you’ once you’re actually hired. (NB I don’t think you should have to do this, but I also don’t think most employers expect their employees to show up like they’re interviewing every day, if that makes sense!)

    4. GigglyPuff*

      I have to agree with the others, it is a bit on the casual side for an interview, it would have to be a very much know your field/potential job/academic institution. Also it looks great for summer, but you mention you’ll start applying in a few months, that might be a little off for fall/winter interviews, to be honest it looks a little more like something a student would wear to an interview, not a professional. But again you know what field/institution you’d be applying to.

      But as a female plus size, the idea of wearing something like that (though not my style), to a summer all day interview, where you get drenched in sweat five seconds after you leave the car to walk to the building, looks lovely. I did have to switch from a dark pink to white stripped shirt with my suit after one summer interview left me with sweat stains all the way to my wrist in under 20 mins so I couldn’t even take my jacket off for lunch. Drove home in my undershirt, and wouldn’t be surprised if they saw me strip off my jacket and shirt in the parking lot after dinner, and that’s why I didn’t get the job (though tried to wait a few mins after they all seemed to leave). No regrets.

    5. Kendra*

      I would would say to go with a conservative top underneath, and some fairly tame shoes, but I think the suit itself is lovely! The colors are bright without being over the top, and the cut is classic enough to read as professional to me. It will vary somewhat based on how conservative the school/department is, but I can absolutely picture any of my library science professors (or any of the department’s support staff) wearing this.

    6. Shell*

      I’m a professor in a humanities field, and I’ve chaired search committees more than once. That suit is charming . . . but it does read a little informal for an interview. I can definitely imagine some of my more staid colleagues judging it as insufficiently professional. I’d go for something more boring for an interview, like black, navy, or gray. You might also consider posting this question at thefora.org (Chronicle of Higher Education) to get more opinions from academics.

      1. Shell*

        Oh . . . and I don’t think anyone in my department would blink if you got the job and wore that suit to work, but the level of formality expected for an interview is higher.

    7. Rusty Shackelford*

      Yeah, I think it’s perfect for a job, but too informal for an interview. A solid colored skirt or pants might sober it up a little bit.

    8. Spool of Lies*

      Not an academic but I love this outfit and I could definitely see profs from my former undergrad and grad institutions wearing something like it! Academic dress was pretty casual at my (Canadian) universities, though.

    9. Lemon Zinger*

      I don’t think this is appropriate for an interview. It should be more formal. Might be okay for day-to-day work, depending on where you are hired.

    10. MissDisplaced*

      I think it’s a cute suit. I admit I like it better almost broken up as in the fist photo with jeans.
      Together, I think it will depend on what you wear under it and the shoes and accessories (perhaps a wide belt would pull it all together?) but I think it can work for summer interviews.

  197. Wakeens Teapots LTD*

    I cannot even.

    I can’t share more details than this, and ordinarily I wouldn’t post with so few details but, I so cannot even that I am compelled to post.

    I know someone who was:

    fired last Friday
    unfired on Monday
    fired again today

    I’m just, who DOES that.

    Have you ever?

    1. fposte*

      In a previous life, that manager was a squirrel crossing the road.

      Sucks to be fired; really sucks to be fired twice in one week from the same job.

      1. Wakeens Teapots LTD*

        I know all parties involved very well which is why I am being cautious with any details. I neither agree nor disagree with the firing itself but *cannot* with the way this has gone down. What the ever living hell.

        (this is squirrels by committee. a team of squirrels crossing the road, in different directions at the same time)

    2. Lynne879*

      If it makes you feel any better, without any other details I find this situation to be both sad and hilarious.

      1. Wakeens Teapots LTD*

        Nothing changed between Fridays! Other than minds! Back and forth!

        The firee 2X is doing pretty well, all things considered.

        O.o

      1. periwinkle*

        Don’t blame HR. They just file the paperwork. This is a special level of indecisive manager.

        1. Not Me*

          Every job I’ve ever had HR has to approve terminations and hires go through them at some point. So HR not catching this crappy manager and stopping it is on HR in my opinion. I expect managers to be bad at what they do, most of them aren’t trained to be managers, but HR is a whole different ball game.

        2. Wakeens Teapots LTD*

          You are correct. This had nothing to do with HR. This is a high level, revenue producing rainmaker type employee and HR had no influence over the decisions. They probably forgot to CC the HR director – I am barely kidding.

  198. TheYoungWan*

    I had an interview a couple of weeks ago, and the company is regularly sending updates on how the hiring process is going. Is this a sign?

    1. Psyche*

      Not necessarily. It probably just means that they realize that applicants appreciate knowing how the process is going.

    2. Art3mis*

      I wouldn’t take it as one. I had an interview process that I thought went super well. About a week after the second interview, about the time they said they’d have a decision made, HR person emails me to ask how I thought it went. I said I thought it went great, etc. what did they think? She tells me they really liked me, thought I’d be a great addition to the team, etc. etc. and they’ll make a decision next week. OK great. I’m thinking this is in the bag. Nope. Went with someone internal. Why even ask me what I thought if that was a possibility? It was like a gut punch.

    3. Bunny Girl*

      I might not take it as a sign that you’re going to get the job, but I would take it as a good sign to how the business runs. That’s really thoughtful and not 100% necessary for their hiring department to do and the fact that they are taking the time to do it means a lot. So I think it means if you do get the job, you probably have a good well running HR department.

      1. SecondChoice*

        Yes, in general, I’m finding that some companies are much more communicative to candidates lately (some companies, not all), and that’s wonderful. However, it’s not always turning into a job offer for me. Unfortunately. So, it’s a good sign, but not necessarily that you’re about to get an offer. Good luck!!

  199. Seeking Second Childhood*

    The new part of the building where we were moved to over the winter means my not-wall backs up onto a space where they haven’t built new cubicles yet. It currently has a corporate history display and 3 sofas for quiet work. I’ve had to learn to speak up when there’s loud conversations. Often just popping my head over the cubicle wall and tapping my ear gets me an apologetic wave and a much quieter phone talker. Six months, and yesterday was the first cranky reaction I got. I just said the room has strange acoustics and I’m hearing everything….it’s fair to imply I’m hearing content not just getting distracted, right?
    I think it’s someone I’ve had to ask to keep it down before, too.

    1. Not So NewReader*

      Sound is a real odd thing and open spaces can sound like caverns. Cloth can help deaden echoes and dull the loudness. If there is a rug on the floor or curtains on the windows those things can help to some degree. My boss hung up double drapes over the windows to help with the terrible acoustics in our room. She also got a wall-to-wall rug which also helps. I think they make ceiling tile to help with acoustics, too. I am not too familiar with the topic but I have seen enough to know that your complaints are probably legit.

  200. Midwest writer*

    Could I just get some fingers crossed and good vibes for my husband? He’s an associate (paraprofessional, formerly known as teacher’s aides) at a middle school and has been for two years. He’s got a teaching degree and has applied for several in-district openings each year he’s been there, with no luck. Wednesday, he applied to a private school about a 40-minute drive away and got called immediately for an interview next week. That was great, but THEN, today, his principal at the middle school called to see if he was interested in a new opening they have. It would require a one-year emergency certification in a new subject, with time to complete the classes and get certified. I think the second job would be better for several reasons, not least of which is not adding 40 to 45 minutes of driving each way in good weather (not to mention winter …). Regardless, he would really like to be back in a classroom of his own. It would be ideal if his current employer could let him know before he goes in for the interview next week, or as close to it as possible, so he could weigh both options.
    Thanks!

    1. Not So NewReader*

      Wishing you guys good luck and the best possible outcome.
      Perhaps he can ask about time frame as he is considering another job.

  201. TechWorker*

    I used to love my job, but then I had a 6 months of massively high stress and I’ve not really recovered yet (Nor has the project). I don’t *really* want to leave but I don’t know how to fix my role – I have enough responsibility hat I’m busy with organising other people/helping junior folk/trying to summarise status a lot of the time but not the formal job title/salary that comes with that (with the additional expectation that since I’m not actually a manager I’ll produce work as well, even though I’m in meetings a good proportion of the every day).

    Spoke to a recruiter today about an exciting opportunity – the job sounds great and the commute terrible >.< wish me luck!!

    Side note – thanks to everyone who advised me on what to wear to Morocco last week. I got bitten to death but otherwise had a great time! (And learnt that if you’re in a tour group going places mostly frequented by other tourists then short sleeves and long shorts are fine because there’s inevitably a tourist in hot pants and a vest top to out do you :D)

  202. Ariana Grande's Ponytail*

    I’m here to gripe about the least of my problems:

    1. Last week while I was expressing to my boss that for the past month or two it’s been really really busy for me, my (male) boss told me that actually, I’m just usually not that busy so it’s only relatively bad right now.

    2. Last night, at a work event, some man was sitting at the head of our table and was going around asking me and other staff members (our bosses were sitting at the table also) what our job titles and educational backgrounds were. I said what my bachelors and masters were in, and then he goes “Huh, ? So data is data, and you’ll analyze it?” I mean I guess my undergrad degree does not completely relate to my job (as a data analyst) and maybe he didn’t hear my masters degree, but why is he interrogating a total stranger on their qualifications for their job after just meeting them? I found out today he’s the VP of my division.

    Way to punch down this week, men!

    1. AnonyMoosewithTea*

      At our mid-year review, my female coworker and I complained to our male bosses that we were given more work than we could do, given the number of hours in a day and the need to go home and eat dinner and sleep. They replied that we just need to be more efficient about our time. We both pushed back and got some verbal acknowledgement from them that there “might” be a problem but then the let the issue go and didn’t do anything about it!!! Needless to say, I’m leaving this company now and my coworker has been better about making clear what she is doing and what she does/doesn’t have time for. It’s absolutely amazing how men consistently push back on this. I’m starting to think their busy is not the same as womens’ busy.

  203. Brain Dumps are Exhausting*

    This is super late so I expect not a lot of people will make it this far, but for those who do, I would love some tips and tricks for the “how-to” document created at the end of a tenure in a particular job, to help the next person in the job, and your current co-workers in the interim.
    I have one week left, and I have been working on said document off and on since I gave my notice last week. Today my boss asked me if I could make such a document (um. yeah. I’m already working on it) but I have been working on a digital version (one with links to helpful documents, e-mail addresses, etc.) and she is imagining something printed that will go in a binder. It’s not that big of a deal, I can do both, it was jut unexpected.
    Anyway. This is not my first rodeo with such a thing, but I always feel like I’m A) not being detailed enough B) being TOO detailed (theoretically the person that replaces me will have SOME relatable skills and knowledge… this is not an entry level gig) and C)forgetting something REALLY major that I will get a call/e-mail about in a month.
    So, I’m getting close to the end of my first attempt at this, and will probably spend much of Monday going back, fine tuning, and editing for a 2nd version that can be printed.
    When I go back and go through it again for edits, what should I be looking for, to make sure it is sensical and useful? Any other tips?

    1. Bunny Girl*

      I recently made a full binder like this because I was moving out of state and wouldn’t be able to help train the next person, and one thing that really helped if you are training someone on software that requires multiple steps is to do screen shots of exactly what you are doing going through a process and then make a note why you are doing it next to them. I still keep in touch with people from that job and they have never once asked me questions about how to do any of that stuff because they said I laid it out so clearly.

    2. Lena Clare*

      Go through each of the tasks that you need to do for the job and write a brief step by step for each one. Agree that screenshots can be more helpful here.
      Write a summary for each client.
      Provide any passwords for documents or equipment, and full addresses of any links you had in the electronic version written out in full.

  204. Public Health Nerd*

    I just finished my junior year of college. I’m interested in public health as a field. This is mainly for context because I’m kind of freaking out and need some reassurance.
    The past two summers have been busts, and this one is going to be a bust too. I didn’t do anything the summer after my freshman year. I took Organic Chemistry the summer after my sophomore year (I thought I was going to go into medicine), and it really did not go well. I have a retail job for this summer, but I’m kind of freaking out for my future.
    This coming year, I’ll have a fellowship in disability policy and will be a teacher’s assistant for epidemiology (I fell in love with it this past semester). I’ll also be in my third year as an RA.
    How screwed am I? What do I do?

    1. LaDeeDa*

      Public health is a sought after degree!!! Do you have an area of interest? My 4 friends who got their masters in public health; 1 does hospital quality control, one does domestic violence relief, one does LGBTQ+ teen welfare, one does school lunches… it is a HUGE field!

    2. Fishsticks*

      You are doing great! A mix of both “real” jobs and more related work is great! Also being a TA can be extremely helpful. Maybe see if you can find an on-campus job maybe doing office work so when someone looks at your resume after graduation they see you have a mix of both public health oriented stuff but know how to work in an office! Good luck!

    3. Deb Morgan*

      Just want to chime in and say:
      1. You’re gonna be okay.
      2. Don’t consider struggling in an Organic Chemistry class to be a failure or a waste of time. Every class I took, job I had, or experience I tried that I absolutely hated or didn’t do well in taught me which paths to avoid. A lot of things seem great in theory, but once you do them, you find out important information you didn’t have before.

    4. Thankful for AAM*

      I’d be looking at job postings in epidemiology or in what you want to do to see what they say they want. You can look for ways to boost your skills in those areas and maybe talk to faculty about how you can take your skills and market them for those jobs.

      But I can see a great cover letter in AAM style in which you show how you handled the challenges of organic chem or of something in the retail job or RA position. The TA and fellowship positions will also be great fodder for the cover letter.

      You got this, you’re and AAM reader!

  205. Overeducated*

    Commuting!!! I prefer working around others, but I hate wasting time commuting, especially on those days when I’m one of the only ones in the office (why I switched to Friday telework). Your list sounds full of great things to be free of as well.

    Good luck with the move and the work transition.

      1. AvonLady Barksdale*

        Ha! I was reading that and it occurred to me that it might be for me. :) I will definitely not miss commuting. My current city is a car-only commute and I hate it– I miss being able to zone out on the bus or train during my commute.

  206. BB*

    I interviewed a candidate recently and I really liked her. Qualified, excellent references, poised and professional. After communicating with my manager, we were ready to extend an offer. A few days later, corporate stepped in, informing us that candidate had sued her former employer. This immediately disqualified her. I was shocked. I decided to research the case (no deep search easily found online) After reading through the transcripts, and the facts stated in the case, I can understand why she sued. No idea what the outcome was. I’m sure she’ll have a difficult time finding a job in this niche field and I feel badly for her. When I send the rejection, I want to provide additional positive feedback without violating policy. Is that possible?

    1. Dragoning*

      I’m not sure what “feedback” you could give–she’s not being fired for anything she did, or that she can change.

      Ugh, your company.

    2. Lynne879*

      I don’t know much about this stuff, but why would the candidate be disqualified because she sued her former employer? Because your company is afraid she’ll sue them?

      1. TechWorker*

        Yea seems a pretty shitty reason to disqualify someone – what if she was totally in the right to sue? Should employees assume that if they go down that route they’re unemployable for the foreseeable future?

          1. Argh*

            I’ve seen a few comments in threads on hiring . The consensus seems to be that if there is a lawsuit against former employers, you are out of the running..

            1. Fortitude Jones*

              That’s horrible, especially if the lawsuit had merit. Now what – the candidate’s supposed to just sit around unemployed forever? This is really sad.

    3. Acornia*

      That policy is total BS and is probably more likely to get them sued than hiring someone who rightfully sued a lousy employer.

  207. Ari*

    I interviewed a candidate recently and I really liked her. Qualified, excellent references, poised and professional. After communicating with my manager, we were ready to extend an offer. A few days later, corporate stepped in, informing us that candidate had sued her former employer. This immediately disqualified her. I was shocked. I decided to research the case (no deep search easily found online) After reading through the transcripts, and the facts stated in the case, I can understand why she sued. No idea what the outcome was. I’m sure she’ll have a difficult time finding a job in this niche field and I feel badly for her. When I send the rejection, I want to provide additional positive feedback without violating policy. Is that possible?

  208. That Girl From Quinn's House*

    I’m applying for temporary (3-6 month) jobs at some of our area universities, to try to get into that field. Some of their HR sites only allow one cover letter to be stored at a time, but I’d like to apply for multiple similar jobs.

    Should I write a generic cover letter? Skip it entirely? Only apply to one job every two months?

  209. Jayne*

    Oh man, I am SOOO late to this, so I might have to ask it next week.

    I am really wanting to look for another job, but I’ve got a problem — well, not *really* a problem — I just found out I’m pregnant! Woot! Before I found out, I was hoping to start looking within the next month or so, and was hoping to find one before the busy season hits next year (April). I’m due in January, and I don’t know how to go about finding a job while pregnant. Do I tell them in interviews, or do I bring it up after I get the job? I’m debating if I should start looking now, or wait until after I have the baby, and start looking after the end of next year’s busy season (after I’ve come back from maternity leave)? Has anyone else decided to look for a job after finding out they’re pregnant?

    1. Rusty Shackelford*

      Congratulations!

      I’m debating if I should start looking now, or wait until after I have the baby, and start looking after the end of next year’s busy season (after I’ve come back from maternity leave)?

      Well, there’s a lot to consider. How much time do you want to take off? Were you hoping to use vacation time or sick time, or FMLA, neither of which might be available to you at a new employer? Is your current employer good about time off and last-minute schedule changes? If you’re in the U.S., how good is your current insurance and will you be getting insurance through your new employer?

      1. FML(A)*

        I am currently waiting to adopt, and wrestling with whether to apply for jobs. I don’t want to stay here, but if i leave, then I won’t be eligible for FMLA for a full year at a new job. What if I get an adoption match between now and then, and then I can’t take any leave, paid or unpaid, except for scant vacation time?

        1. That Girl From Quinn's House*

          TBH, something like this happened to a friend of mine. She accepted a job with a far-off start date in her last year of school, and in the interim got pregnant. She got 2 weeks of maternity leave and had to be back at work or lose her job.

      2. MissDisplaced*

        Yeah. I’m not sure of all the ins and outs, but I think if you definitely are pregnant and don’t HAVE to look for something immediately, I would say hold off and wait. Then you either decide you’re not going to go back to your job, or you go back and then begin the search. If you start a new job while pregnant, it seems much harder to take off both because you’re new (optics and PTO) and there is generally just a lot to learn and do on a new job.

    2. Overeducated*

      Congrats! I am currently looking for a job while pregnant too, but the distinction is that I’m looking for a transfer within my large organization, so I’ll remain eligible for FMLA. I am just going to tell interviewers if and when they offer me a job. I figure they look for someone to stick around for years, and positions tend to be vacant for around a year before they can get filled, so they can live without someone for 3 months – but no need to create doubts or put them in the position of worrying that if they reject me they’ll get sued for discrimination before they even decide if I’m the right person for the job.

      In a way you’re in a better position searching while pregnant than finding out your pregnant right after you’ve accepted a job, because leave and flexibility can be something to discuss during negotiations, so you might as well keep looking but be picky about it.

    3. Rey*

      There’s another commenter (titled: Applying for jobs with maternity leave on the horizon) that asked about this upstream. Some of the comments there might be helpful too. Best wishes with everything!

    4. Just Jan*

      Yes! I ended up not leaving my job and it was probably for the best even though I don’t love it, but I definitely did interviews while 2, 3, and 6 months pregnant. I showed relatively late so I had a lot of flexibility in disclosing to interviewers, but I had decided I would bring it up at the offer stage, the way that I would with any other kind of non-negotiable issue, and try to treat it as a matter-of-fact “this is what I need, will this still work for both of us?”

  210. Kendra*

    Definitely after you get the job; pregnancy is a protected characteristic (at least if you’re in the US), and it’s illegal for them to consider it as part of their hiring decision. Telling them about it in the interview would unnecessarily complicate things for them; they don’t need to know about it unless it’s a particular type of hazardous occupation, until you decide to tell them about it (there was a really good discussion on that topic here earlier this week).

    And congratulations! :)

  211. Management Surprises*

    I’m a manager at a small firm, with a small team and this week an issue came up and I’m not sure if I’ve approached it the right way or not.

    We work in a cyclical field, so there’s always a bit of turnover around this time. While its not unexpected, recently a really good team member – who I had hoped would stay the whole cycle – let me know that they were looking to leave after some outstanding projects were completed. They’d be completed in July and this conversation happened in May, so I thought we’d have more time to have that transition conversation.

    Well today they told me they would be out in the afternoon to go on interviews — not asking, but letting me know. And they’ve apparently told all the other team members they are leaving.

    I was kind of taken aback and didn’t really know how to react at the moment other than to say, okay then. I’m worried that I’ve bungled this whole thing, that they are completely checked out and won’t really finish their projects. Open to any thoughts or advice…

    1. Not So NewReader*

      This is beyond your control- we can’t control other people’s behavior. I seriously doubt you bungled here.

      I do see worry, though. Sometimes worry can misguide us. This person is a good worker right? Have you seen any signs that they have checked out? The time frame is really close so it could be that they will indeed finish their projects.

      Please trust that this good worker will do what they said and finish the projects UNTIL you have concrete proof that they will NOT finish the projects. Don’t ruin an otherwise good relationship by showing this employee that you do not trust them all of the sudden.

      Now. On the other side of this story, you CAN quietly map out a plan what you will do if they do leave too soon. Perhaps you can ask them to come in on the weekend to help finish. Perhaps you an have them partner up with someone so someone else knows where things are at. Perhaps the projects are further along than you actually realize.

      The two steps go hand-in- hand. If you have even a rough plan of what you will do about the projects in progress then you will come across as less worried and more trusting. (I know if I plan to finish projects and the boss suddenly acts all worried that I won’t, that feels like the boss does not trust me to keep my word. This makes everything that happens next harder.) If you come across as trusting the employee, then the employee will probably want to help you even more than if you start showing too much worry.

      There’s three weeks left to this month. She could very well work all through June before she gets any answer on her interview. It’s really too close to guess. She told you where she was going. She is just starting interviews now. I tend to believe she is being truthful with you. Rough out some ideas of what you will do just in case, anyway. It will help you feel better.

    2. Kathenus*

      I don’t think you bungled this. Her behavior of telling you she’d be out is what’s inappropriate, and it doesn’t matter whether she was in the process of transitioning out or staying long-term. In my opinion that’s the discussion to have – “Employee we will try to be flexible to accommodate your scheduling needs when they fit the schedule, but you have to request any time off for approval in advance according to our normal policy while you are working here.” Then hold to that. So be flexible where you can but she needs to follow the rules as all employees do.

      1. Clisby*

        Whether her telling OP she’d be out is inappropriate depends on what’s the norm in that office. When I worked as a computer programmer, it would absolutely have been normal to send out a message in the morning saying “I’ll be out this afternoon – taking a half day of vacation.” That didn’t have to be approved in advance unless there was some really intense, down-to-the-wire deadline kind of thing going on.

        1. Kathenus*

          Fair point. Since OP brought up her telling her she’d be out as a problem in her perception, I inferred that the culture here was to request it. But that could be an incorrect assumption.

  212. Ace in the Hole*

    Weirdly specific question….

    I’m going through the very slow, bureaucratic hiring process for a local government position. I went through 2 interviews already and I’m waiting to hear back on their decision. My interviewer estimated about a month before they’ll have updates, and it’s now been about 5 weeks with no word. I do know that once the hiring committee makes a decision they send it to another department to go through all the background checks before extending an offer, and the background check step is what she expected to take longest.

    Should I reach out to the interviewer? Or the agency’s HR? Or just sit tight and wait? If this were private sector I’d reach out to them but I’m not sure what the etiquette is on government jobs.

    1. H.C.*

      I’d hang tight since they told you it’ll be a month until updates & it’s only been a little over that. FWIW, I work in local government too & when I applied, it took 9 months between our initial contact & my first day of work.

      1. Ace in the Hole*

        Thanks. That’s about the timeline I’m expecting, guess I’m just getting anxious. Good thing my current job is secure and not unpleasant!

      2. buttrue???*

        For my husband it took 2 years. They decided to require a test and had to create it first. And there was no real doubt that he was getting the job.

  213. Lovecraft Beauty*

    Got the job offer! It would be a raise of 21%, I have asked for another 2% and relocation assistance (it would be an out-of-state move). I have a meeting scheduled with my current boss on Monday about prepping for my annual review (July-June fiscal year), and I guess I will let him know that if he wants to keep me, now is the time to demonstrate that.

    I don’t want to leave my current job. I like the work of my current job quite a lot, I love my apartment, I love working in this city. But I have not gotten a raise beyond COL in four-plus years, there is some bullshit going on wrt my title, and I am very frustrated about how poorly the C-suite thinks of the staff. And these are not problems I can solve.

    1. The Man, Becky Lynch*

      Good luck with negotiating with your current boss but I hope that you have read the posts here about counter offers and how often they go south =( What will you do if your boss now offers you the raise and then you turn down the offer, only to have your boss suddenly come back with “oh actually we can’t give you that right now after all…”? That happens, especially if you’ve already experienced their stingy behavior with raises, you shouldn’t trust them unless they cut you a check immediately.

      1. Lovecraft Beauty*

        Oh, yeah. I would get a counteroffer in writing. And I don’t think they’re going to make one. (It would be SO EASY for them to keep me. SO EASY. And yet.)

        1. Fortitude Jones*

          Even if you get the counter in writing, they can still pull the stunt noted by The Man, Becky Lynch and not give it to you. They can also tell you best of luck with the new job during this meeting and start the process of hiring your replacement, so you need to play this one very carefully.

  214. Orange You Glad*

    How early is too early to show up to an interview?

    I know it’s a good idea to be punctual, maybe give yourself a little extra time in case you get lost or need to go through building security, etc. But is there a point that maybe you are too early?

    1. Lovecraft Beauty*

      Yes. 5-10 minutes is the sweet spot. Any more than that is weird and makes life harder for your interviewer(s).

    3. Orange You Glad*

      I should add I ask this from the view of an interviewer. Almost all of my interviewees showed up 30+ mins early this week (one was over an hour early). It kind of bothered me because I had to rearrange my whole schedule to accommodate them but I’m trying to think big picture on whether or not I should be irked by this and let it affect how I feel about the candidate.

      1. Anonymous Educator*

        Yes, you’re absolutely right about this. If candidates arrive 30+ minutes early, they should not check in 30+ early. If they can go wait in a car or under the shade of a nearby tree or in a coffee shop or anywhere else, that’s what they should do until about 5 minutes before the time they’re supposed to arrive.

      2. fposte*

        There’s a discussion on this upthread. I think they shouldn’t come 30 minutes early, but also that they’re likely anticipating a waiting room where it’s no bother for them to sit. I would let them know if that’s not the case.

    4. The Man, Becky Lynch*

      This made me smile since it’s being discussed up thread and a popular topic for the day! Lots of good comments up thread.

      30 minutes is pretty extreme and reads to me like they mistook their interview time.

  215. AnonoDoc*

    Question/Rant:

    Any suggestions on sources for summer professional attire for women? Everything I find is either floofy, or sexy, and/or more appropriate for the beach than the office.

    And of course, I work in an old building where we never know if it will be 58F or 88F.

    1. Orange You Glad*

      I’m a big fan of the ankle pant style that seems popular in the summer – I have a few pairs of khakis that are shorter that I wear with flats. Layering is also necessary because my office is always about 10 degrees cooler from comfortable.

    2. The Man, Becky Lynch*

      I’m a fan of capri length pants, in a cotton fabric so it breathes.

      Short or 3/4 length long sleeved tunics really let you breathe as well. Anything that’s loose and they don’t tend to be in reveling cuts.

      I have had luck at Old Navy for some more causal style tops that are still business casual appropriate [aka not sexy or beachy]. Super affordable. If you’re looking for less casual and more business-business, tunics are great in my experience. The less form fitted, the cooler you’ll stay. Gives your body room to sweat without making it stick to you.

    3. MissDisplaced*

      It is kind of hard. Much summer clothing is just too revealing or casual for the office.
      Some ideas:
      Bermuda Shorts Suit
      Capri pants
      Linen wide leg pants in a neutral color like black, tan or khaki
      Seersucker slim pants
      Knee length TAILORED shorts in suiting fabric
      Lightweight skirts
      Summer-weight denim: the very light Tencel type denim jeans, skirts or pants
      Tanks layered under sweaters, especially open weave sweaters
      Silk tops or tanks: I’m a big fan of silk in summer, search Ebay for deals

      Lighter colors in general and in natural fabrics like cotton or linen: White or off-white, light gray, turquoise, beige, khaki, light blue.
      I was at Target last night and saw a few cute things.

  216. Job Hopeful*

    I have a job interview lined up on Monday! Largely due to the advice I’ve found here. My concern is that I’m trying to leave a toxic work place/boss, and the new hiring manager I’m interviewing with on Monday has some interaction with my toxic boss. I’m concerned my boss has talked enough crap about me for it to have potentially made it back to this new hiring manager. How do I respond to any questions about my toxic boss’s less than favorable comments about me?

    1. The Man, Becky Lynch*

      Fun story about the one time that my Toxic Waste Dump job was actually a “oh you work there!” moment in an interview. They KNEW that my boss was a POS and I didn’t need to say anything. This person knew one of my coworkers and was like “Oh…I’ve heard about the management there…do they know you’re looking, of course they don’t, we understand completely.” And then did the “lock my mouth and throw away the key” motion to me.

      So the hiring manager is probably well aware your boss is a piece of work and doesn’t trust them. Just go in assuming that and you’ll be okay! Why would they be interviewing you if they had “heard things” about you? You know?

    2. fposte*

      It’s unlikely that you’ll get questions like that, and if you do, it’s not a great sign about the new hiring manager. You might get more serious questioning in areas your old manager has problems with; just be ready to calmly handle them, same as you already were. If they’re specifically about getting along with managers, focus on “I’ve always tried my best to work well with managers and colleagues.”

    3. Not So NewReader*

      Just thinking about this, let’s say the crap did get back to the new manager. Whatever he has heard did not stop him from calling you in for an interview. So any concerns he may have you will probably be able to handle.

      If your current boss is usually talking about people poorly, then this new manager may have decided to ignore everything across the board that this guy says.

      I have heard of managers deliberately hiring people who were working for a known toxic boss. The person had to have the skills, of course. But if the boss had to chose between two candidates of similar ability the one who had the known toxic boss had leg up and got the job. This is why I say, it seems pretty telling to me that he called you for an interview anyway. Be prepared that he knows what is up and his focus is just talking about the new job.

  217. Fighting the Devil Inside*

    First time doing this but here we are.
    I’m on a medication for a physical issue that’s giving me some pretty awful mental side effects. This means on occasion at work i’m randomly crying or just vacant because i’m fighting the urges to self harm. It’s exhausting but my doctors moving me onto a different medication next month which should be less awful.
    In the mean time any advice on how to negotiate this at work?

    1. AvonLady Barksdale*

      I think a lot depends on your relationship with your manager, but if you work among caring people, I would say something vague so they know you’re handling things. In my case, I would speak to my boss and tell him that I’m dealing with a manageable medical issue but right now the meds I’m on are making me extra emotional, and I’m working with my doctor to find a better solution. You don’t have to get specific.

      It can be really hard when you’re dealing with something like that, because most people will be concerned. That’s nice, but most of us don’t want people too much in our business when we’re dealing with such issues. So think of it more as proactively fending off the nosiness; give them just enough information that acknowledges that things are touchy but also inform them that there’s a plan.

      Good luck and please hang in there!

      1. Fighting the Devil Inside*

        Thanks my boss has said on many occasions that it’s fine for me to work from home if i’m having an off day . I think though i’m better being at work a there’s people who’ll look out for me there which can be hard to explain.

    2. Not So NewReader*

      For many people, telling themselves not to cry only makes them cry harder. Find a quiet spot when you need to and tell yourself it’s okay to cry, see if that helps slow things down for you.

    3. The Man, Becky Lynch*

      I agree with AvonLady, that’s the route I’ve taken in the past and it’s worked well. Be vague but be open to let them know “this is a temporary thing I’m dealing with, I need some wiggle room if it’s available” and take up the option to work from home that’s available. It helps reduce them meddling as well since they know just enough to stop the pestering in most instances [unless you’ve got busybodies then that’s a new kettle of fish of course].

      Sending you good thoughts and hope that this gets sorted out quickly to get you over this bad spot!

      1. Fighting the Devil Inside*

        Thanks, the boss is super supportive but completely in the wrong direction. I feel like i need a sign that says “i’m sort of ok ,don’t bother me but stop me if i start to do stupid stuff”. With the crying i’ve convinced the office i have a perma cold so they’re not nosey about that.

    4. LGC*

      I’m so sorry!

      One thing you MIGHT want to throw in is a proposed solution. Especially if you’re telling your boss to back off – some people do tend to want to fix all the things (like me), and it’s a relief to be told to back off. (I mean, I will back off anyway, but I’ll worry less about it if I’m told.)

      You don’t really need to provide too many details about what you’re going through, I don’t think – especially if you don’t feel comfortable doing so (if the issue you’re being treated for is something you’d like to keep private).

  218. The Man, Becky Lynch*

    Just screaming into the void. Since it’s been a heck of a Friday [started out with walking into an email from a very.angry.very.very.angry customer email, all caps calling us names due to a billing error…which was immediately fixed and would have been immediately fixed without the CAPS LOCK RAGE OF DOOM AND NAME CALLING DESTRUCTION but whatever, I hope that person got themselves a Snickers bar afterwards].

    Now I’m super grouchy and I still don’t understand how people send checks [business to business checks] without any ‘efing invoice information. So I get to deep dive into the system to figure out what this money is for, when all you have to do is upgrade your life and stop with the hand-checks. Or at least just use the memo line appropriately, you keep your hand-checks if you really love them that much and computers are scary business or whatever reason why you’re not using a system that allows you to print checks. Little things, digging under the skin, so little but such a thorn.

    1. Fighting the Devil Inside*

      The void hears and sympathises with you. We still have people who print reports off to mark them up .

      1. The Man, Becky Lynch*

        It’s like when people refuse give me an email address to AP and I have to write them letters and mail them *twitch* I can’t believe how archaic things are and I come from some really old-school, anti-technology, companies because my previous boss had no use for the internet or websites LOL yet he still didn’t make me hand write anything or something nuts.

        My first job was in 2003 and we still did everything by email and print checks. That reminds me of my horror story about how I reordered checks the first time as an AP clerk and screwed it up [somehow they were ordered without the OMG SO IMPORTANT tiny flower graphic/monogram thing like previously] and the financial manager chewed me out. Meanwhile nearly 20 years later, I know that she was just batsh*t and no, it wasn’t at all an important detail that was necessary, she just liked the “decorative” aspect.

    2. 653-CXK*

      I felt the same way last week…there were a couple of calls I got where the people were continuing to press me for information I didn’t have. Today, it was actually quiet, but then there was a new employee (a nice woman) who kept on handing me forms that I already had. I just cheerfully took them, reviewed them, and filed them in the recycling bin.

      Thankfully, those testy days (and the days where you’ve felt like you’ve done squat) make you appreciate the really good days where you accomplish a lot.

    3. Jaid*

      People who send paper checks to the government with just their name on it.

      Um, there are hundreds of John Smiths, let alone the fifty in one state. Could you send it with the payment invoice or…y’know… your social ON THE CHECK? Give us a clue by four, love, we won’t mind.

      Half my job is moving money to the correct account.

  219. Lena Clare*

    Late to the party but… people who have done counselling qualifications while working – how did you find the personal development aspect of the course(s)?

  220. Mellow cello*

    I’m looking for advice about how to apply to continue in my own job when I’ve only been in it for 2 months.

    I got this job by successfully applying for an internal promotion. I’ve finished my training, am doing well (good feedback so far from the bosses), feeling comfortable and have a contract until early next year.

    The department just opened applications for this position (there are several us) to start once our current contracts expire early next year. Of course, I want to apply and continue in this position! But I applied for this position literally a month ago so there aren’t that many substantive new developments I can showcase in my CV and cover letter.

    Any advice about how I can show that, yes, I have grown even in a few short weeks?

    Thank you!

    1. Luthe*

      Well, first emphasize you are applying because you love the position so much you want to continue in it. Second, use the fact you were promoted as an accomplishment! Also, if you did well in training, talk about that. It will show you learn quickly and use what you’ve learned.

  221. Luthe*

    How do I explain in an interview the reason for leaving I put on the application is only part of the story?

    When I applied to the job I am interviewing for, I put “grant funding ended” because the funding for the position had ended the month before I was fired. Now, I will admit I screwed up because I have a tendency to overshare info with my coworkers, but at the same time the company was desperate to get rid of me because they didn’t have money to pay me, so they accused me of a) bullying a coworker (who admitted under questioning it didn’t happen) and b) spreading confidential information (see the oversharing) so they could fire me for cause and avoid paying unemployment (this was a frequent tactic with the company, which had extremely high turnover because of it).

    So now how do I explain in the (second) interview the reason for leaving I listed was accurate but not complete? And is there any way I can warn them my former managers are the types of people who hold grudges? I have separate references who worked with me at the company (one a former manager) who can attest to my virtue, but I know hiring managers often want the scoop from former bosses first.

    1. MissDisplaced*

      I once worked at a startup with a very mean owner who tended to trash anyone who quit. They also had money issues, which is a reasonable reason to leave. I used to say something like: “I worked at Teapot Company, which was a startup. Unfortunately, their investor funding ran out and I was laid off as a result.” Or, “My previous company Teapots, Inc., was a startup with financial difficulties, so I’m searching for a more stable, established business to work for.”

      I wouldn’t go into too much detail about all of the troubles. Generally when you say the company “experienced financial difficulties” the interviewers can read between the lines.

      And I hope you fought for the unemployment! You can still file a claim even if fired and if the company is that bad, you might get if. It will be up to the company to appear and provide proof they had cause and that needed to be documented.

      1. Luthe*

        I did and lost, for reasons I’m not sure I understand (I let my lawyer handle most of the details). As I said, I did have some responsibility for the mess, but not nearly as much as they made it out to be. My biggest fear is when the interviewer checks with the company they’ll get a different story from them than from me and I’ll be sunk. Hence the need to explain the discrepancy. Perhaps I’ll say something about having already decided to leave because of the company’s very high involuntary turnover rate.

  222. yala*

    So.

    It’s just gotten way too bad with my current supervisor. It’s become increasingly clear that I am absolutely a Fool Eating Crackers to her, and that she always assumes the worst of me (among other things, all but calling me a liar multiple times, and then her only response when I found proof of what I’d been saying was “Why do you have this?”), and we consistently have communication issues where she’ll tell me something, I’ll do exactly what I think she means, and then it turns out she didn’t mean that, she just either expressed herself poorly or I misunderstood her (it’s been both, depending on the issue).

    So. I’m not going to pretend I’m anything like perfect. I still make mistakes, but over the past six months (ever since she became the only one checking my work), it’s all just gone downhill. I feel like a rat in the learned helplessness experiment–like I can’t win no matter what I do, and like any mistake at all will be held onto a sign of me being a Bad Worker Who Does Not Listen. And it’s just…it’s very exhausting and nervewracking because I was never perfect at this job, but I was GOOD at it, once upon a time.

    Right, anyway. SO.

    So at my annual review last year, my boss and grandboss were both there. Grandboss was more about defusing things, and asked if there were any other departments in our workplace I thought I might be interested in. At the time, nothing came to mind, and I was still hoping that I could fix things between us and just do good work. That’s clearly not happening now. And my next annual review is coming up in a few months.

    So I think next week I need to talk to my grandboss about changing departments. I’m just not sure how to go about doing that. I know that I want to leave out all the emotion, all the frustration with my boss and the unfairness and hostility, because none of that is relevant to my grandboss or how she does her job.

    But I don’t know if I should actually acknowledge that lately I have been doing less than stellar work?

    My script so far is something like:

    “So, at my review last year you asked if there were any other departments I would be interested in. I’ve been thinking about it a lot. I know there are openings in [department1], and that there will probably be an opening in [department2] in a few months. I think I could do better work in either of those departments.”

    …

    I just don’t know if I should say “I know my work lately has been lacking” or anything like that. Saying that feels like shooting myself in the foot. Not acknowledging it feels like I’m trying to be weaselly.

    Help?

    Please?

    1. yala*

      tldr: I need to ask my grandboss to move to a different department before my boss fires me.

      1. valentine*

        I think I could do better work in either of those departments.
        Make that “excellent”.

        I just don’t know if I should say “I know my work lately has been lacking” or anything like that.
        Nope. Focus on why you want to be in D1 or D2, not why you want to leave your creepy, gaslighting, goalpost-moving manager who punishes you for having proof.

        See the post upthread about the mentor who said to keep it positive.

    2. Thankful for AAM*

      Maybe say you feel you would be a better fit and get back to the high(er) quality of work you used to do?

    3. Anon-Today*

      I report to your boss! I have reached the same point, too. I applied for a job in another department, but grandboss hates me and he had that job three jobs ago, so I just decided to keep quiet about it. Since your grandboss brought up the idea, I say go for it! I want to hear how it goes.

    4. BRR*

      I would say that you’re interested in [department] work and think you could contribute with your skills in X or Y. I might also ask if they have any thoughts on a department where your skills would be a good match.

    5. Psyche*

      Do you actually think your work has been lacking or that your boss is being unfair in her evaluation of your work? If it is the second, definitely don’t say that your work is lacking. I probably wouldn’t in the first instance either, but you could say that you feel you haven’t been able to do your best work in your current department. It sounds like he is aware of the tension between you and your supervisor.

      I wouldn’t bring it up unless he does.

      1. yala*

        No, it’s definitely the first one. I’ve been making small errors on every batch of work I do lately. I spent two+ weeks sweating over one small batch, and thought I’d had the whole thing right…but I was doing it according to how I’d been taught by a previous coworker, which isn’t how boss wants me to do it (and she did give me a print out of instructions, I just…I dunno. It’s been a bad couple of months for me outside of work too), and that’s turned into this big ol’ spiral.

        But yeah, I think I probably shouldn’t. Grandboss knows I haven’t been doing well. I just hope that I haven’t messed up so much that they don’t think it’s even worth it to move me to a different department.

  223. Lilah*

    Do you have any online resources about PR? I am prepping for an interview and would like to brush up on my PR planning skills. My last job had less of it than jobs before and need a refresher.

  224. Anon-Today*

    Well poop. A job I applied for evaporated. I really thought I had a chance, and that if I didn’t get it, the person who did would be vacating a job that I would probably also be a good fit for. Now neither job is open. Rats.

  225. Lucy*

    A quick overview on my current workplace: I work at a small restaurant connected to a hotel as a coffee bar attendant. A co-worker’s close relative has recently passed away and asked if I can switch shifts with her to attend (a week after death). I agreed to do so and our supervisor agreed. However, the general manager won’t allow her to switch the shift with me because my coworker didn’t have any sick days left (and that she’d should’ve been careful using them), needed to used vacation time (needs to be 2 weeks advanced) and that she has a set schedule.

    Also I want to add that employees can switch shifts at least 24-48 hours before their scheduled shifts. The funeral is on Saturday and she asked on Monday.

    I want to ask if this is normal for managers to denied a shift switch if employees have set schedule?

    1. WellRed*

      Im not quite clear on what you are asking, but any manager that can’t allow someone flexibility for death sucks. Frankly, they shouldn’t have even been tasked with finding coverage. Also, if the employee switched shifts with you, how does that impact her sick days. Switching means she’s picking up a shift for you, no? Also, the GM is undermining the supervisor, another level of WTF.

    2. Psyche*

      That seems unnecessarily rigid. Why do sick days and vacation time enter into it at all? They need coverage and they have it. What is the problem? They should try to be extra flexible for important events like funerals.

      1. valentine*

        The GM created the problem to say no to attending the funeral, which is gross.

        Ask your supervisor to push back.

  226. VT*

    I logged into my email after I left for the day and saw that a woman I was talking to this morning and making plans with was let go this afternoon. :| Guess I’m taking care of the office garden alone this summer.

    This is the second person in my department who has been let go in the last few months. We just had a going away party last week for someone who quit. I work with about 2 dozen people so this seems like high turnover, but is it really? It’s very disheartening to see so many people leave…

  227. Necco wafer*

    Has any left a job right before your anniversary to get vested for a better job opportunity? I’m literal months away, but a friend recommended me for a job that has more potential for growth, and the pay and benefits are a lot better than my current position. Also my current job is at times toxic and I’m very burned out at my current position. I was going to wait around until my anniversary to start looking, but have been waiting for this company to have an opening in this position and now it has. Love to hear your thoughts! :)

    1. Fortitude Jones*

      Apply for the new job. The hiring process for that one can end up being longer than you think, so you may bump up against your anniversary anyway. And even if you don’t, you described your current company as toxic -you should be running to get out.

    2. MissDisplaced*

      Apply.
      Life is too short to work somewhere if you’re not happy. And don’t feel guilty if you leave. It’s business, not personal.

  228. Mesha Mizzell*

    ok so i had job offers last month May 17th and accepted job 1 because i thought ill get more hours bc it was supposed to be fulltime and job 2 was part time but weeks later havent been getting any hours only when they ask me to come cover a post. so i just reviewed offer letter from job too and etc yesterday. Do you think i did it too late? and that they be like she waited to late to do it its too late now.

    1. valentine*

      Yes, it’s likely way too late and it’s probably bad that you didn’t even respond to decline offer 2. You can check if the position is still open, especially if it’s retail or restaurant.

      At your current job, check the number of hours in the offer letter and tell your manager you expected x hours but have only received y and can they schedule you fully starting next week. (Also, can you pick up other people’s shifts?)

  229. Decima Dewey*

    I have an update on Perpetually Late Guy: he made our Head of Circulation uncomfortable while she was trying to explain a finer point on money handling, kept getting up in her space despite her telling him to back off. She filed a Workplace Violence Report, so he’s being transferred. Grandboss’s view is that the library system created the problem by letting Perpetually Late Guy get away with being late nearly every damn day at multiple locations. She wants PLG to have a chance to improve (and to save his job and his pension).

    Other issues: at our All Staff Day meeting at the end of April, there was a panel discussion of the Community Engagement Training all librarians have to do. I wasn’t present for the discussion (I’d signed up for CPR certification) but someone who attended told me that consensus of those who had to participate was that the training was a complete waste of time. There’s a folder in our Staff Web for the training with absolutely no threads in it.

  230. TheAwkwardInterviewer*

    Hi all. I hope I didn’t miss the window on this as I’d love some insight.

    So I’ve been working in my current role for a little over two months. I applied for a position at my level, but was offered a more entry-level position. I was told that I don’t have direct experience working FOR a consultant (I have worked in this industry for 15 years and worked WITH hundreds of consultants). I accepted the role because of other perks (work from home, and GREAT time-off package), and my offer letter says I will be moved up to the level I initially applied for within a year. In the meantime, I’m scraping by. I tried to negotiate the salary with one of the owners on the foundation that I’m beyond entry-level (with a related graduate degree (plus certification), and 15 years of related experience), but the salary was firm and I dropped it.

    A week before I started, someone who got the role at the level I applied for started as well. I was told that she used to work for a consultant, so I figured, wow, they really put a lot of stock in that. But after talking to her on training calls before others came on the line, while she worked for a consultant, she did so in a capacity that all the work she is doing now is completely foreign to her. It turns out, her boyfriend is a client of the consultant, made a call and had an in.

    I’ll admit, I was frustrated, but got over it quickly. I focused on wowing to the best of my abilities in the hopes I’ll be promoted back to my previous level sooner, and I’ve excelled in the role. I just found out through this coworker that the owner (who was firm in salary with me) told her that she needs to sit with me and see how I do things because she’s flailing and requires way more training than the managers thought, and their patience is thin. When I talked to my direct supervisor about this, she talked to the owner and said it’s a co-working thing because I can learn things from her as she can learn things from me. Which is the complete opposite of what this co-worker told me the owner said to her. Plus, she has no experience in what we do, and started just a week before me, so clearly the learning here will be very one-sided.

    I’m typically very helpful in nature, but I’m upset that I’m basically tasked with training the person who got the role I was more qualified for (plus the 20% increase in pay). While I don’t hoard knowledge typically, my instinct here is to dig in my heals because of the gall in the request, the fact that the owner isn’t really coming clean with his motive, and because what this inexperienced coworker needs to learn is something I’ve learned through years of experience and education. I’ve also thought about showing her some of my work and some of my sources and letting her connect the dots on her own to keep my investment to a minimum.

    What are your thoughts? Am I just being super bitter, or are my feelings justified? What would you do?

  231. Claire*

    I am so excited and proud for my son, who just started a new full-time job. It’s not his first job. He’s worked as a dorm head for a language immersion camp in Vermont (think, parent and manager for 150 kids plus four resident advisors, in French), and as a counselor for a YMCA camp for kids. He’s so very good at this, and I’m pleased the job not only uses his skills, but offers the possibility for promotion.

  232. Luna*

    I know this thread is a few days old, but maybe someone is still reading it and can help?

    I work in a hotel, and today had a really bad day when it came to dealing with money. I was early shift, so my coworker and I took over from the nightshift employee, who is from an external, third-party firm. The nightshift employee all but outright said that he thinks I stole some money from the registers because they came up short, and I had already gone home ‘suddenly’.
    I didn’t go home suddenly. The registers had been counted, all of the duties to hand over from the previous shift to the nightshift were performed, and I asked the shift leader/supervisor if it was okay for me to go home, since everything was done being done. She had said yes.
    So, the nightshift employee obviously doesn’t want me to count the registers again.
    …fine. I know I didn’t take money, I heard nothing about the registers coming up short before I left (in fact, I was told the registers were just fine), and I am willing to write this up to the nightshift employee and I having previous interactions where it was clear to me that he didn’t like me.

    But the bigger thing is that I *did* make a mistake a few days ago. One of the duties for the shift is to count the registers. They need have X amount in them in total, and anything over that gets dropped into a safe. A few days ago, I was dropping the money envelopes with a coworker (as procedure demands a ‘four eyes’ rule)… but turned out that I hadn’t dropped one of them. I honestly thought I had, but the envelope was still on the desk. Absolutely admitted that I had goofed up here, and I will apologize to my coworker because they got asked about this missing money.
    Totally my mistake — one of those mistakes that you make once, and then never again. And I was told to consider this an official, verbal warning. That isn’t the problem. That doesn’t bother me because… yes, I made a mistake. And a verbal warning is the correct response, and was actually pretty lenient because ‘money missing’ is a very good reason to instantly fire an employee. (Especially since I’m still in the trial period of my contract; I could be fired for any reason)

    My issue is, with this whole thing, I am feeling very panicky and insecure in my job again. A few weeks ago, I finally admitted to myself that I had fallen into depression again, and I now am back on medication — it really has helped. But now this… should I send out some applications for a new job? Just in case something like this pops up again, and I am in danger of losing my job? Or am I getting too anxious over an honest mistake, a mistake that I am determined to not have happen again, and I should keep doing my job and not search for an alternative?

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