open thread – July 12-13, 2019

by Alison Green on July 12, 2019

It’s the Friday open thread! The comment section on this post is open for discussion with other readers on anything work-related that you want to talk about. If you want an answer from me, emailing me is still your best bet*, but this is a chance to talk to other readers.

* If you submitted a question to me recently, please do not repost it here, as it may be in my queue to answer.

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  1. Peaches*

    Hi all!
    I know some of you have been keeping up with my posts about my terrible old coworker who got fired, but was staying during her notice period. Then, she ended up staying a week and a half AFTER the new coworker started and was “training” her. Finally, her last day was last Wednesday, and I’m glad to be on the other side of her presence here. Since she left, new coworker has been doing well. She seems smart, willing to listen, asks good questions, etc. She has done a lot of webinars with our corporate trainers and seems to have learned a lot already.

    However…there is a slight issue that I don’t know whether I should bring up or not. Per company policy, our dress is business causal Monday-Thursday, with jeans being allowable on Fridays. For some reason, new coworker has been wearing jeans every day since old coworker departed. It’s weird, because her first week and a half here with old coworker, she wasn’t wearing jeans Monday-Thursday.

    Our office is small, and her boss is pretty hands off, so I am quite certain no one would tell her that she can’t wear jeans every day if I didn’t. At the same time, I’m her peer, and don’t know if it’s my place to say something. I just feel uncomfortable bringing it up. My other concern is that she’s wearing jeans because she can’t find any work pants to fit her (she is a woman who is about 6’4-6’5…definitely the tallest woman I’ve ever seen!) When she first started and was wearing pants, I did notice they were highwaters on her. Her jeans, however, are not highwaters. It’s odd to me that she continues wearing them throughout the week when it can easily be noted that everyone else is wearing pants, skirts, dresses, etc.

    Any advice?

    1. government worker*

      I’d let it go. She may have permission, who knows? It doesn’t affect you at all and it’s not worth getting into.

      1. Fortitude Jones*

        I was about to say that. She may have made arrangements with her boss for an accommodation. I’d let it go.

    2. Cinna214*

      I appreciate that you want to help the new person succeed, but this is not your business. You don’t know what type of arrangement she has with her boss and you should let it go.

      1. Cucumber Water*

        Yes, get back in your lane what other people wear to work is not your business. You don’t want to be known as the Dress code police.

        *** On a side note my husband is interviewing for a position and the Po Po Ho (Dress code police I worked with 8 years ago) has applied and he thinks he may not be able to interview her because he now remembers who she is and knows we all called her the Po Po Ho and he doesn’t know if he can do the interview and call her by her name. 8 years and I still hate her for telling on me for wearing Sandals.

        1. Hiring needs a selling edge*

          It’s super crappy when a colleague goes to the boss about your dress, rather than saying something to you in kindness. Comes off as a power play against new workers who might not have the funds available to buy new gear. I’ve been there over boots.

    3. Choux*

      I don’t know that you can say anything. It’s her boss’s place to have that conversation with her.

      1. Antilles*

        This, exactly. If you were her manager or clearly higher in the chain-of-command, it’d be acceptable to point out that she’s a little out of sync with company norms…but not as a peer.

    4. MusicWithRocksInIt*

      If no one in management would ever tell her she can’t wear jeans every day… is it really true she can’t wear jeans everyday? Or is it just out of sync with company culture? Is there are good reason not to wear jeans (customer contact for example) or it it just an arbitrary unspoken rule? If you started to wear jeans everyday would anyone say something to you? I feel like I would leave this alone, unless you also want to wear jeans, in which case talk to your manager and ask if you can start to wear them too.

      1. Peaches*

        It’s specifically noted in our company handbook that business casual (no jeans) is the dress code Monday-Thursday, and jeans are acceptable on Friday.

        1. Angelinha*

          But if it’s true that no one except you would ever say anything to her, it sounds like in practice, it’s not actually the company policy. I would take this as a sign that you could wear jeans too, if you wanted to!

          1. Peaches*

            Haha, I’ve honestly thought about it before. I am very certain no one would say anything if I started wearing jeans every single day. Now that this is coming out of my mouth, I feel silly for asking this question. I’m sure my new coworker is fine to wear jeans regardless of what the company handbook says!

            1. Close Bracket*

              I am very certain no one would say anything if I started wearing jeans every single day.

              That’s a bad metric for deciding whether something is acceptable.

              1. Daisy*

                Yeah, but we’re talking clothes here, not… stealing from the cash drawer. Clothes don’t hurt anyone.

                1. Close Bracket*

                  “It’s not stealing from the cash drawer” is also a bad metric for deciding whether something is acceptable. It’s also weirdly escalating to bring up.

              2. Anonomoose*

                It’s served me well. Pointless university admin thing? Is anyone going to say anything to me about it? No? Ok, will get on with useful things.

                Dress code? Anyone going to enforce? No? Ok, will wear what I like, within reason.

                Website style guide violation. Anyone going to enforce it? No, ok, stays like it is.*

                It’s very freeing.

                *The last one was because our Uni’s site style guide was really poor for accessibility. We complained, too.

                1. Close Bracket*

                  “Is anyone going to enforce it” is a much better metric, but still not perfect. “Can I be sure that nobody is reaching BEC with me or storing this up to bring up in my review in six months?” is a pretty good metric.

            2. Princess Consuela Banana Hammock*

              You’re not silly! But if you like wearing jeans, I’d be tempted to check with my manager to ask if it would be ok to do so :)

            3. MommyMD*

              I wouldn’t wear jeans just bc she is. I’d just dress the way I usually do and leave it to her to follow the policy. They may something down the line.

        2. NomdePlumage*

          Many companies have policies that they are not strict on enforcing, but rather use as a point of reference if something becomes a problem. It makes it easier to have guidelines to fall back on rather than reset expectations that everyone is used to.

          1. Amethystmoon*

            Ours doesn’t seem to enforce anything, but someone must have annoyed our VP a few months ago, because we all got a blanket “wearing x and y at work is not acceptable, wear z instead” e-mail.

    5. OneMoreAlison*

      I’d lean towards just letting it go. Maybe she had a discussion with her boss about a reason why she needs to wear jeans (though i can’t think of a reason right now). It’s not effecting your work, so is it a big deal?

      1. Alex*

        Surely the fact that her jeans actually fit but she can’t really get other trousers that fit properly due to her height is a good enough reason in itself.

        1. Fortitude Jones*

          Yup. If she came from a workplace where casual was the norm and, thus, only had one pair of (ill-fitting) jeans, she may need time to start earning enough to buy new pants to add to her wardrobe. If I was in that situation, I’d ask my boss for permission to wear jeans too until such time I could afford more pants.

          1. Jedi Librarian*

            That was my problem too when I started at a stricter dress code place. I didn’t have pants cause why spend the money when I didn’t have to? But my boss said no, but maybe her boss said yes. Clothes are expensive and if she’s young or recently finished school or something, buying a pair or two of pants (or skirts or whatever) might be too much.

        2. I Wrote This in the Bathroom*

          This was my first thought – I’m only under 5’9″ (something like 34″ inseam) and, outside of a specific brand of jeans, I could never find a pair of pants that wasn’t too short. Maybe there are designer brands out there that I would have to go into years of debt to buy – I admit I only researched my price range and there’s hardly anything. I cannot begin to imagine how hard it must be to find dress pants that fit if you are 6’4″-6’5″. I bet that was why she was given permission.

          1. Kuddel Daddeldu*

            My suits are made-to-measure, so they fit really well – and not too expensive, i.e. in the same price range as good off-the-rack suits (about $400 – when that looks like a lot, consider that they last many years). I can also easily get a second pair of pants.
            These shops also make pants, skirts, and blazers.
            True bespoke suits are way more expensive ($1000 minimum).
            Maybe made-to-measure pants are an option? For example, sumissura.com does custom ladies’ pants for $69 online. Never used them (I’m in Europe), though.

            1. Staci*

              I am sure you meant this to be helpful, but for many, $69 would be way out of a person’s clothing budget no matter what country they live in, let alone $400. I don’t know why I find this so off-putting but it sounds like we live in different realities.

              1. Kuddel Daddeldu*

                I bought quite decent pants (Dockers, Calvin Klein) for $20 to $30 at TJ Maxx in the US. In Germany (where I live most of the time), I could not get them for that price, here, $50 seems to be the low end for last-season brand name pants.
                So two pairs of well-fitting made-to-measure pants at $70 each, compared to off-the-rack for $50, seems not too unreasonable. Two pairs can go a long way to cover the 4 workdays that are not casual Fridays – if the industry, company and role actually demand it (which is not always the case!).
                My role sometimes requires the formal end of business formal, some days are internal only (business casual, pretty much anything goes), and then there is site work requiring safety gear.
                I still remember one business trip that required a boiler suit with safety boots and hard hat, business formal, and a tuxedo – I actually took a picture of the three outfits hanging in the closet. That was a job on a (very high end, very conservative) cruise ship.
                The company pays for the safety gear but for business casual and formal I’m on my own. I have about 5 good suits and replace maybe one every 2-3 years. My total annual clothing budget comes to about $300-$500 including shirts, underwear and shoes – in a fairly well-paying professional job. I could make do with less but could as easily spend way more.

    6. londonedit*

      Office dress codes seem to be a total minefield! To me, smartish jeans would be fine for ‘business casual’. Not ripped jeans and a t-shirt, but a nice pair of jeans and a smart/casual top would be absolutely fine where I work.

      I think you just need to be direct with her, as it’s a simple enough thing to say – ‘I just wanted to let you know that people usually tend to only wear jeans on Fridays – I know it’s difficult trying to work out office norms, so I wanted to give you a heads-up! Monday-Thursday we’re on the slightly more formal side’. I think you’re overthinking the whole ‘what if she can only find jeans to wear’ thing. I’d be very surprised if she didn’t have other options.

      1. Deranged Cubicle Owl*

        To me, smartish jeans would be fine for ‘business casual’. Not ripped jeans and a t-shirt, but a nice pair of jeans and a smart/casual top would be absolutely fine where I work.
        This!

        I do not understand why some offices are against jeans when they prefer ‘business casual’. Just a jeans with a nice blouse or shirt or sweater is still ‘business casual’ to me.

        1. Kathleen_A*

          I don’t think it is most places, though – certainly not any place I’ve ever worked. The line between casual and business casual can be a pretty fuzzy one, but “no jeans” is one of the non-fuzzy criteria. :-)

          1. The Other Dawn*

            Same here. We’re business casual, but that does not include jeans. (If truth be told, a lot of what I see around here I wouldn’t even classify as business casual, but nobody says anything from what I can tell.)

        2. NothingIsLittle*

          Well, I think it’s also contingent on the wash of denim. Very dark or black wash denim in a good cut is firmly business casual to me, where lighter wash denims tend towards fully casual. There are exceptions, of course, based on the office. I work at a university and I wear black wash jeans quite often, but I would definitely get a side-eye if I came in with light wash jeans.

          With that in mind, though, I know there’s a huge difference between the coasts in terms of what constitutes “business casual,” so it could be a regional thing that a more casual setting in the Northeast would still only allow dark wash jeans where a similar setting on the West Coast might allow any type of denim. (or even, gasp!, shorts )

      2. Observer*

        I can’t see any reason for Peaches to say anything. If this were the kind of workplace where the CW would get dinged for wearing jeans even though no one would say anything to her directly, that’s one thing. But otherwise? Why? Peaches doesn’t supervise her or have any training responsibility here.

      3. Sunflower*

        I’ve only worked in business casual offices but it’s hilarious how each of them had such varying levels of business casual. Every policy though explicitly called out whether or not blue jeans were allowed.

      4. Snack Management*

        Minefield, indeed! Working in HR, I absolutely despise having to police dress codes. It’s so subjective to culture and gender in ways that make it so frustrating to navigate.

      5. Lobsterp0t*

        My work has a business casual policy and there is literally NO professional/occupational justification for it.

    7. The Man, Becky Lynch*

      If anything, you could mention it to your boss. They’re hands off, so they may not notice “now” but it would be nice to flag it for them and say “hey New Person is wearing jeans on business-casual days, you may want to talk to her about the dress code, I don’t feel it’s my place to bring it up to her directly…”

      Then the boss could say “Oh she has permission, it’s a special accommodation, no worries.” if it is something she cleared with them or could say “oh yeah? I’ll handle it!” or whatever. Then leave it be.

      1. Dzhymm*

        Or maybe, “I notice New Person is wearing jeans every day; has there been a revision to the dress code?” This allows them the opportunity to save face by either taking it up with New Person, revising the dress code, or reiterating the dress code to everyone.

      2. MommyMD*

        No. To me this rises to tattle tale level. This has nothing to do with her productivity and is not an actual work problem. Management has eyes and will comment if it bothers them. It’s not like she’s wasting the day on the Internet while work goes undone.

        1. The Man, Becky Lynch*

          No, your’e ridiculous. As usual. Jeezus, tattling is for children and doens’t exist in the adult world, grow up.

          1. Close Bracket*

            When you are talking about things that don’t actually impact work, like dress code violations when the garment in question is still modest, then tattling is a thing that exists in the adult world.

    8. Mad Scientist*

      I’d let it go too. It’s very possible that she can’t find work pants that fit correctly and jeans frequently come in different lengths. She most likely notices that she is the only one wearing jeans, so she most likely has a reason and I don’t think it’s necessary to draw attention to it because it doesn’t affect her work (or you) at all.

    9. londonedit*

      Oh, damn – I totally missed the fact that you’re not her manager. I’d let it go, in that case! Ignore the above!

    10. CatCat*

      I have been following the saga and am glad old coworker is finally GONE! Man, that just dragged on so much longer than it should have.

      For the dress code thing, eh, I’d probably leave it alone. It’s not really your thing to enforce. I could definitely see “business casual” being interpreted as including jeans (this may be a geographic thing) so maybe that is what she is thinking. If her boss doesn’t care, I wouldn’t say anything unless it’s actively harming her reputation in some way.

    11. HR that Cares*

      As an HR Rep, this isn’t something that needs to only be mentioned by a manager, you can say something like “hey, I’m not sure if you are aware, but we really only allow jeans on Fridays” It can be a casual thing that you bring up while just having a regular conversation.

      1. Melissa*

        Yeah, I’d probably say something to her, too. Because if the manager finally notices it much later, and corrects her, it turns into a “Why didn’t anyone tell me/her months ago.” situation. I’d hate to be the one who could have diffused the issue at the beginning but didn’t. You can phrase it very lightly, and even throw in that if she has made arrangements with the boss, then ignore me completely…

    12. Boots*

      I’d mention it to her in a low key, “hey, just a heads up” sort of way. I had a co-worker who assumed it was okay to wear jeans in our office because we have causal Fridays and we’re on the very casual end of business casual otherwise, but it’s actually not. No one said anything to her, until an executive who is a stickler for the dress code noticed and pulled her aside. She was really embarrassed and I’m sure she would have much rather heard it from a co-worker.

      1. Adlib*

        Yeah, I can see saying something for this reason. I really like The Man Becky Lynch’s scripts above.

    13. Celeste*

      It may be a written company policy, but it doesn’t seem to be consistently enforced. Either her supervisor allows it for her personally or doesn’t care about it for his staff in general. I feel like you don’t have to intervene to keep her from any action on it; I also think that if her boss does start to care about it, he’ll give her a verbal warning to stop before writing her up, etc.

      Do you also want to wear jeans more often or exclusively? That’s the only reason to speak up in my opinion.

      1. Peaches*

        I definitely want to wear jeans more often, haha. I never thought to ask though since it’s stated in the handbook that we can only wear jeans on Fridays.

        1. Seeking Second Childhood*

          Well that leads to another possible way to go : you *ASK* her what she was told about corporate casual definition. You know policies change over time, and back when you started it jeans were Friday only — does she have a newer handbook?
          If she says no, Old Cow-Orker told her “everyone does it” , you can say something like “sometimes Old Cow-Orker, er…bent the rules a bit more than I would like so I’m going to stick with what I’m wearing now.” Thank her and move on.

          1. Seeking Second Childhood*

            Alternatively, ask your boss the same thing — has corporate casual changed, because you’d like to start wearing denim more often, and you’re seeing others wearing jeans.

          2. Mama Bear*

            This is what I was thinking. Is there a new policy you’d like to be aware of? I’d otherwise let it go.

    14. Emi.*

      I think it depends entirely on whether “no one would tell her” means “it’s technically not allowed but no one actually cares” or “everyone will silently hold it against her and consider her less professional while refusing to use their words to communicate a policy.”

      1. The Man, Becky Lynch*

        This is what I worry about the most.
        A lot of these “policies” that aren’t readily enforced are only used when things go sideways or in order to use it against someone when it comes to a promotion or raise kind of nonsense.

        “Oh she does fine work but she can’t seem to follow our dresscode, I wonder what else she’s not following! Yeah not management material that one!” [This coupled with the fact she’s a woman could just lead to someone who’s got a bias to jump on this detail just to use it against her when the time is right.]

    15. Peaches*

      Thanks for all the suggestions, everyone! I think I will let it go. She may very well have specific accommodations with our boss despite the dress code noted in the company handbook. It’s definitely not affecting me personally. I just don’t want her to be embarrassed if someone mentions it to her say, a year down the road.

      1. The Man, Becky Lynch*

        I want to just mention that not everyone reads the handbooks, in reality I’ve realized just about nobody does! [I do because well HR and it’s my job and also I’m super uptight about accidentally breaking rules, so yeah even when I’m not doing HR duties for someone, I read the handbook. But that’s actually sadly not the norm]

        Yes, they should always read it. Yes we always request an acknowledgement that you’ve received it. But really, people’s eyes glaze over and handbooks tend to be 30-50 pages long and really the only thing you care about in the end is maybe vacation time and when your benefits are supposed to kick in [even then, people just come in and ask me those things as well, it’s clear they didn’t even bother or think to look!]

      2. Utoh!*

        Yeah, all interactions with new coworker should be around the work itself, policy should be left to management to discuss with her if necessary.

    16. Cat Wrangler*

      I had a similar situation recently. Our lay staff has a strict dress code (uniform) and a new employee kept flouting it. It was obviously intentional—you can’t mistake what you’re supposed to wear. It felt like a huge middle finger to the rest of the staff. I finally said something to her boss, who is offsite. Problem solved about 5 minutes later (we had the uniforms onsite). Strangely, since “forced” to comply with this basic rule, she’s become much more of a team player overall. It might be worth a gentle word to her boss in the context of staff morale. Maybe all of you can wear jeans now!

      For what it’s worth, my daughter is 6’2” and hates jeans. She wears black dress pants (many chains have tall lengths) or long skirts.

    17. ip freely*

      i’d approach it by asking my boss “have we relaxed the dress code? because I notice so and so wears jeans every day – can we do that now? because it’d be great to be able to wear jeans occasionally on days other than Friday”. that way you’re not accusing anyone of doing anything wrong, you’re just asking if the same rules still apply.

    18. BenH*

      Absolutely do not address. It’s not your place, it’s really not that big of a deal unless she’s client facing, and you’ll come across as one of THOSE coworkers.

      1. Peaches*

        I am going to let it go. For what it’s worth, it’s not in my nature to point our something like this (it’s my PREFERENCE to let it go!) I just wanted to check with the lovely folks on AAM who could provide some clarity.

    19. OhGee*

      Let it go! If she has jeans that fit, she can find work pants that fit. Either way, stay out of it.

    20. EngineerMom*

      I lean on the side of “let it go”, but there are also ways to have a casual conversation about general clothing norms around lunch that help a new coworker figure out the office culture.

      On her being tall – there are clothing store that market professional clothing to (very) tall women, including Long Tall Sally, so unless she’s exceptionally cash-strapped, I doubt that’s why she’s wearing jeans. Given that my 6’6″ dad with rather long legs has an inseam of 36″, and they sell pants with inseams up to 38″, there are definitely non-jean options out there.

      1. Leela*

        I’ve been to Long Tall Sally many times. It can easily be more than twice as expensive for extremely regular clothes that other people can get for 40 dollars at Target, H&M, etc.

        1. AnonoDOc*

          Twice as expensive, and probably good for business-casual but their stuff tends to be on the polyester, trend and not as finished side of things. Wish they had more things for a conservative work place :(

      2. Observer*

        There are a lot more options for tall men than for tall women.

        The options that exist for tall women tend to be expensive. And even if not, a job change could easily also mean some tightness around finances, so getting a new wardrobe may not be her highest priority.

    21. WellRed*

      WHen I first started my job, I was grateful when my coworker, slightly senior, sent me a quick email on the dress code.

    22. Kiwiii*

      My only thought is that there may be an expectation that she dress more professionally for certain meetings to look a certain way in front of clients or people outside of your small team/office. You should probably warn her of any situations that she might be underdressed for in the future, but i wouldn’t worry about day-to-day clothing.

    23. Leela*

      Speaking as a 6 foot tall woman, PLEASE let this go. You have no idea what an everloving nightmare finding business atire is for us. Pants don’t fit at all, expose everything if we sit down as well as carving into our hips, the widest part of us, because that’s where pants-makers decided our waist it.

      If we wear skirts, we’re in high danger of them being obscenely short, especially if we sit down, and yes even business-wear pencil skirts.

      Our other option is to have to pay double to triple the amount other people pay for work clothes and get something that’s no higher quality and isn’t going to last any longer.

      You can’t see her frustration when she goes shopping, you can’t see armload after armload after armload of business clothes get put into the “no” pile because they were never intended for someone with bodies like ours. If her own boss hasn’t said anything to her (are you positive that they didn’t have a conversation where the exact thing above was discussed and this is what the conclusion was? I’ve had this conversation many times with many bosses only to have coworkers claim that I’m breaking policy when my boss has given me the go-ahead) then I’d hold off

      1. EH*

        Semi-off-topic, but Make Your Own Jeans (just remove the spaces and add dot com) does custom-made clothing. Get someone to take your measurements, and you can get a wide variety of clothing items made for you. My measurements are ludicrous, but MYOJ makes stuff that fits me perfectly. Jeans, dress shirts, et al. There are places on Etsy that do custom sized gowns, dresses, long coats, and so on as well.

        1. Mama Bear*

          As a very short person, I’m going to bookmark this. Sleeves and pants are the bane of my existence, even with petite sizing.

    24. Rebecca*

      I understand this is company policy, but what is the rationale behind it? Do you have outside visitors Monday through Thursday, or is this just because? Not being argumentative, but sometimes rules are just there because “rules” and they don’t really serve a purpose. I remember not being able to wear pants with back pockets, or having to wear panty hose when wearing a skirt or dress, those were office rules back in the 1980’s at my first job. No real reason, we weren’t customer facing, it was just a rule. And no jeans, why, the horror of it all! We had to fight to wear dress pants as it was instead of skirts/dresses with hose every day.

      I’m sort of baffled by dress codes in general, unless you’re a professional office, medical, law, that type of thing, or a bank, but what difference does it make if she wears jeans or not? Her work output is the same. I’m sitting here in my non customer facing office in a sleeveless shirt and shorts, very comfortable, and my work output is good. It would be the same in this outfit vs a dress or dress pants. Actually, it’s probably better because I’m not worried about spilling coffee on myself and ruining something expensive.

      If she’s not stapling the TPS reports correctly or doing something work related incorrectly, then speak up, but personally, I’d leave it alone.

      1. Windchime*

        Yeah, this is what I wonder, too. If jeans are OK on Friday, why aren’t they OK on the other days? My workplace has a weird rule about jeans. No blue jeans. Black jeans? Perfectly fine. White, tan, striped, yellow, green? Yes, you can wear those. Just not blue jeans.

      2. Kuddel Daddeldu*

        When I’m tasked with training a new hire or someone changing roles, or first time meeting a new client, I’ll explain the expectations. I usually tell them “That is about what you should wear for this situation so people focus on your contribution, not your attire”.
        After that, it’s very much not my business unless something is way out of line (like holey jeans or worn out sneakers to a formal meeting with a conservative client, or suit and tie for a ship’s engine room).

        The only exception is safety gear for on-site work (we are an engineering consultancy company). There, the “dress code” is non-negotiable.

    25. Me*

      It’s not your place. Her boss being hands-off doesn’t negate that. In fact if anything her boss being hands-off indicates her boss doesn’t care about things like jeans.

      Don’t turn into that person that invokes the rule book because rules.

    26. Heat's Kitchen*

      This is so not an issue, let alone your issue. It doesn’t affect your work. Don’t even speculate about why a coworker may wear certain items, that’s so out of bounds. If it’s because you want to wear jeans, frame it to your boss as, “I’ve noticed some coworkers wearing jeans every day. Is that something I can do too?”

    27. Been there*

      My last office job, I tried wearing nice jeans on a Friday and was told no jeans ever. I was pregnant, but hadn’t told them, and was running out of pants that would button. I had been trying to make it to the end of my first trimester before buying new clothes, especially since I had just started the job and wanted to pay down some bills first. Unless you think it’s going to be a big deal when someone eventually notices, I would wait until she’s had a couple paychecks before you decide whether to say anything.

    28. Adele*

      We have a no jeans policy at my work place, although I bend it sometimes by wearing nice dark blue denim trousers on Fridays and one of my tall, slim, stylish coworkers bends it every day by wearing non-blue, well-fitting, well-cared for jeans. Someone once said something to me, but since she is not my boss I ignored her.

      A number of years ago, I was in charge of our group’s move from one building to another. While we had movers, we still had to pack and unpack everything and it fell to me to do that for communal supplies and equipment. I wore my regular work clothes on pack day and it was uncomfortable, dirty, and damaged my clothes. On move/unpack day I wore jeans, tee-shirt, and running shoes. Grandboss complained to my boss and wanted him to send me home to change. Thank goodness Boss is a practical person and told Grandboss that was ridiculous. I am glad he didn’t tell me about this until long after the fact!

    29. MommyMD*

      It’s not for you to tell her. I’m glad she’s working out. This falls under manager territory.

    30. Mellow*

      Unless you’re her supervisor, or her wearing jeans every day directly affects your own responsibilities, I’m not sure why you are even contemplating saying anything about it. I can’t remember what any of my colleagues wear day to day, and I can’t say I want to.

  2. What's Next?*

    Hi all,

    I’ve made the hard decision to shift from nonprofit to the for-profit world. I work in college access in the Bay Area and I’ve concluded recently that to live the life I want with my family, I can’t stay at my nonprofit. I’ve reached the top of my advancement at my current organization and I’m just not being paid enough or given enough support for the amount of stress and extra hours that are consuming me. This was a very difficult choice because at one point I saw myself staying with this organization for the long run.

    I was originally looking to switch to another nonprofit but was disheartened to realize that the other salaries were even lower than mine and/or the positions one step above are requiring about a decade of specialized experience where I only have about six years in college access but nine in the education field. I’m trying to figure out what the next step is, and I was curious about others who made the shift from nonprofit to for-profit and how they found work that was still meaningful while being paid fairly. I really love my job and the people that I work with and if money and resources were not an issue, I’d stay but I’ve voiced my concerns multiple times and nothing has changed. Feeling a little lost so advice is much appreciated!

    1. AndersonDarling*

      What kind of role are you looking for? Healthcare non-profits have salaries on par with the for-profit market.

      2. NopeKnopeNope*

        That’s a big assumption. I’ve worked for two healthcare non-profits and both paid the majority of the staff pitifully below–market wages. AND wondered why they had insanely high turnover!
        (sorry but this is a sore spot for me)

    2. Cinna214*

      Many for-profit companies have sustainability initiatives or charitable arm that might be a good fit.

    3. Rachel*

      I just went through something similar – I’m switching from a non-profit to a government agency, and getting a >50% raise in the process. In my case, the non-profit was paying below what other non-profits were, but it does seem like public agencies sometimes pay more, especially if they have some sort of COLA adjustment. I still feel like my skills are being used in a way that I support (I work in natural resources) but am making a salary that allows me to stay in the Bay Area. This might not be relevant to you, but I thought I’d throw it out there. Good luck!

      1. triplehiccup*

        Also just switched from non-profit to government agency, also for a huge raise and a lot less stress. 100% worth it! But it can take several months, easily, so start now if that’s a direction you want to go in

        1. Rachel*

          I mostly knew which agencies I wanted to apply to, so I kept an eye on their sites. A lot of agency positions don’t end up on other listing services. It’s inefficient, but I developed a list and then just checked them twice a month or so. The whole agency screening and interview process can take a long time. I’m pleased with where I’ve ended up but it was quite a process.

    4. Lives in a Shoe*

      In the Bay Area, there is at least one large University employer who has a health arm, which pays pretty well. You can still work in education but on the administrative side, and make a salary which, while not close to the tech giant salaries, is livable, plus benefits and things like pensions.

      1. What's Next?*

        The jobs I’ve been looking at there have been falling into two categories, jobs that I’d be interested in and am eligible for that would require a pay cut, or jobs that seem too advanced. I’ve been checking their posting regularly though and hoping something comes up. A lot of their jobs require a previous position held within the university.

      2. Gumby*

        I also want to say that the benefits at said University are tremendous. Not free meals like a tech giant, but:
        *low cost exercise classes through HIP (how I miss my twice-weekly lunch yoga classes)
        *access to pools and gyms on campus
        *audit courses
        *GO pass (free CalTrain, anywhere, any time) plus similar for VTA
        *continuing ed $
        *amazing college tuition grant for your kids if you meet the requirements (I have no kids, but I think it was based on time working there)
        *good health insurance, vision, dental
        *other stuff I’m sure I’m forgetting

        1. Lives in a Shoe*

          The large hospital-running University system I referenced does not provide tuition grants for children or staff, but the many-campused other-tier college system does. . .

          And from what I have seen, at least at the central Administration arm of Big University System, career advancement can be rapid.

          1. Gumby*

            Ah, I was referencing a primarily single-campus private university. But that just highlights that there are very many choices in the Bay Area.

        2. AnonInUniversityTown*

          As staff at the healthcare arm of that university, the pay and benefits are what’s kept me there for 18 years.

    5. Pam*

      Perhaps working for the college/university – the flip side of your current job- could work. I’ve seen several people make that transition.

      1. Natatat*

        This is what I was going to say. I work in Education on the admin side and I find it fulfilling. I interact with and help students on their learning journey every day. As far as for profit jobs go, I think the Education field can still give you that feeling of doing good in the world (while getting paid decently).

    6. Daria Morgendorffer*

      I moved sectors from Not-For-Profit to For- Profit for similar reasons (poor pay and limited opportunities for advancement). I don’t know what your profession is but you could consider going to an org that provides services to the Not-For-Profit sector (consulting/advisory type work). This is what I did and it really helped with changing career focus. You are still making a contribution (indirectly) but you aren’t in the sector. Good luck!

      1. What's Next?*

        That sounds interesting! When you did that, were you a freelancing consultant or did you work at a consulting agency?

        1. JR*

          Agreed on nonprofit consulting firms. A few to look at in the Bay Area include FSG and Bridgespan – they’re both themselves nonprofits, I think, so they pay less than for-profit consulting firms, but still good salaries. Also, a lot of the big ad firms have corporate purpose, sustainability, and social marketing arms, often based out of their Bay Area offices.

          1. JR*

            Also, I’ve worked both for a philanthropy consulting firm and as an independent consultant. Both were great for different reasons. I will say that, as an independent contractor, I had my spouse’s benefits, I wasn’t trying to work full time (had young kids), and I had an anchor client (the consulting firm I used to work for) that was probably 80% of my work. People absolutely make independent consulting work without those things, but it sure made it easier for me. Happy to answer any specific questions you have.

    7. DCGirl*

      I switched from college/university fund raising to proposal writing for government contractors. I’ve been selective in which companies I will work for and have actively avoided working in the defense industry even thought that’s were an astounding number of proposal jobs are located, especially in the DC area. For example, my last job was with a company that worked very hard to help the government stand up the Affordable Care Act (I was laid off after the election, LOL). I’m now with a company that works with government on its grants management programs which include things like grants for AIDS/HIV services, small business innovation, and others.

      One thing I will say is that I thought I would miss the nonprofit world a lot when I switched and I really, really didn’t. One story I’ve told over and over again about the switch is this:

      Working in college/university fund raising, meaning working a lot with alumni, I heard a lot of, “Well, I’m not sure you can be an effective fundraiser for ABC College because you’re not a graduate/didn’t attend a women’s college/didn’t major in ABC’s marquee program/etc.” I can’t tell you how many jobs I didn’t get because they were holding out for one of their own graduates to apply. So, I walked into my first interview for a proposal writer position at a Big Four accounting firm expecting to hear, “Well, I’m not sure you can be an effective proposal writer since you didn’t major in accounting.” Instead, the attitude was, “You’ve skills we can use. Welcome to the team!” It was such a refreshing change of pace.

      Good luck!

    8. WomanOfMystery*

      I went from non-profit to for-profit and I’ve been really pleased! I find my work meaningful, even if I’m a little iffy about my overall industry (I don’t love fossil fuels, just in general, but hey, we’re transitioning to renewables!). It’s also been great to have access to resources and structure in the workplace that my previous nonprofit just couldn’t give, based on size and money. And my salary went up. . . significantly. It was also a huge relief to have the bandwidth to step back and support the causes I care about in a big-picture way with money and time, rather than pouring all my thoughts and energy into working through minutiae that matters, but is exhausting.

      1. DCGirl*

        My running joke when I worked in college fund raising was that I didn’t aspire to buy a new a car, I merely hoped to buy a used car during the same decade in which it had been manufactured. It’s so nice to be paid fairly for the work I do.

    9. Kiki*

      I personally haven’t made that shift, but I work at a software company that hires a lot of people who made the transition from non-profits and other chronically underpaid industries. If you can look at software products you used (or would have liked to use), your perspective as an industry user of that product may be worth quite a bit of money to the maker of that product. I’m a woman and a software engineer, so I know the software industry has many, many flaws, but underpaying is not usually one of them (not always the case for sure!). Even if the company is imperfect in execution, it can feel satisfying to try to make technology that makes the world work better. Some positions I know of that really prioritize experience in the product-users’ industry are project management, product owner/manager, and customer implementation consulting.

    10. Kimmybear*

      I’ve moved from for-profit to non-profit and back and will say that there are differences but a lot of the work is really the same. How I’ve kept it meaningful is by working at a for-profit in a role that supports non-profits. Think training on non-profit management at a for-profit company.

    11. Jules the 3rd*

      I switched from a small education non-profit to for profit, but I used an MBA to help make the change. I did target very large companies when job hunting, and after a couple of ‘put in your time’ positions, I found one that satisfies my service itch. Many large companies have outreach and service areas, and need someone to work on them.

      Tech cos in my area are really getting into educational outreach, that may be something to look for. A tech co newish to philanthropy might be especially interested in someone with your experience.

      1. JR*

        Along these lines – a lot of tech companies make philanthropic investments in programs that seek to build and diversify the STEM careers pipeline, often starting with kids in K-12. They might find your background appealing.

        1. OtterB*

          Not just K-12. There are big tech firm efforts at the college level for supporting first-gen and underrepresented minority students where your college access experience would be helpful. Also, maybe a large foundation that makes grants in education?

    12. HR Disney Princess*

      I totally understand. I was looking at a great non-profit opportunity recently but realized I actually made more money as an intern at for-profit company than I would as a generalist with 5 years experience at this non-profit. It stinks but I really can’t afford that big of a pay cut.

    13. Curious Cat*

      If you’re still hoping to stay in the non-profit world, I’d look into associations! Still a non-profit and associations tend to be on par with for-profits in terms of salary, generally with lots of room for advancement (of course dependent on the organization, but at least been the case in my experience). Once you work for an association, it’s also super easy to then stay in that area and switch between different associations if you find something better down the line.

    14. Phoenix Programmer*

      I think you should apply to those next step up jobs anyway. Many job adds are wish lists and most people hired fulfill 80% or even less of them.

      1. JR*

        Agreed. 6-9 years experience, depending on how you count, definitely means you should apply for a job asking for 10 years.

    15. That Girl From Quinn's House*

      When I worked in the Bay Area, one of the Program Directors at my nonprofit switched to working for a small city’s department of recreation and youth services, and got a huge raise and better benefits. He had kids and left specifically due to the low quality, high cost health insurance plan that was the only option where I worked.

    16. MrsFillmore*

      I work at a non-profit with some similarities in scope and have seen several former colleagues recently transition to positions at 2U (https://2u.com/careers/locations/). They’re growing rapidly and seem to always be hiring. For what it’s worth, I personally have some ethical concerns with their business model as it relates to cost structures for online higher education and access, but if you research those and feel okay with it then 2U or similar could be a good fit.

    17. Dot*

      I work in higher ed, and depending on the school, you can make pretty good money. I bet Stanford pays well and has plenty of jobs!

    18. AnonComment*

      Regardless of non-profit or not, find an organization with a mission you support. Even an organization that is for-profit is capable of contributing to the greater good. I think changing the perspective will helpful, non-profit employees and organizations are not the only ones helping to make a difference.

    19. Zombeyonce*

      A lot of hospitals (even for-profit hospitals) have Outreach departments that you might find offer rewarding work. I work for a large teaching hospital (I’m not a healthcare worker) that does a lot of really fascinating research, some on at-risk and/or minority populations. We also have a large number of community outreach programs that are quite large in their own right as well as multiple foundations for cancer research, pediatrics, and other things.

      The pay is market rate, the benefits are pretty good, and there are lots of opportunities for doing meaningful work as well as for advancement.

  3. Toxic Waste*

    I’ve been at my new job for about a month now. I was at a different building working with some interns. I don’t supervise them, but I am in a higher position than them. We were all working together on a project and I had to use the copier. I’ve never been in that building, so one of the interns volunteered to show me. The building is like a maze, so it’s confusing. She showed me the room, and then left once we got there. I managed to find my way back, but when I got back to the room, the interns were all quiet and sat there staring at me. (It was very awkward.)

    Later on two of the other interns also needed help finding the copy room, but she walked with them and stayed with them. (And walked them back.)

    The two people she helped are her friends, but still… I know I’m new, but I help them as best as I can and try and make conversation.

    How can I put this into perspective and not take it personally? I always beat myself up and wonder why they don’t like me, when sometimes it’s just that people don’t like you- I get that. Sometimes there are other reasons, but I’ve only been there for a month….

    1. Ingray*

      I’d guess this is more of a situation where she wanted to stay and hang out with her friends than she specifically didn’t want to help you out. It’s only been a month, I think you should just try to continue to be friendly and make conversation. It can be difficult to integrate into a pre-existing group, especially when the group is made up of interns who might not be 100% up on professional norms. But I wouldn’t read toooo much into this one situation, though definitely report back if other instances of them excluding you or being unfriendly!

      1. China Beech*

        Exactly. They may have just been having a private conversation and didn’t want to continue it in front os=f you. I don’t see an issue here (yet).

        1. valentine*

          Learning to detach could help you immensely, especially if you grew up enmeshed and/or had a mercurial caregiver whose mood ruled your day.

          It’s entirely possible the second intern asked the first to stay or they saw each other in the hall and just happened to return together. Proceed as though only things they address with you are remotely about you. Staring? Not a problem. Silence? Not a problem. “Hey, Toxic Waste, there’s a toner smudge on your shoe”? Something to respond to.

    2. Jaid*

      It’s not on you, the intern was being thoughtless. And she probably wanted to gossip with her fellow interns.

      1. CmdrShepard4ever*

        I agree it was probably that she was just hanging out and chatting with her fellow intern. Also there is a line between full time employees and interns, I don’t know if you are the same age as them or older, but if there is an age difference that can also play a role. We have interns every summer, while we will do employee/intern happy hours or other activities, the interns themselves will hang out on their own as well. If I were an intern there are certain conversations I would be willing to have with fellow interns that I would not want a full time employee of the company overhearing.

        There are many simple legitimate reasons why the interns would not want to become friends with you.

    3. The Man, Becky Lynch*

      I bet it didn’t really dawn on the intern that you’d need assistance back!

      So she dropped you off, assuming you’d retrace your steps [forgetting that’s not necessarily something that’s easy to do the first time you go there, right!]. Then when her friends went back, she stayed to “help” them out and also you know, chit chat or really did stay to help them. Since you didn’t seemingly say “Hey Nancy, can you hangout here with me and help me figure out this machine too? And then I won’t get lost on the way back =)”

      When you saw her leave, why didn’t you flag her down all “Hey I may get lost on my way back, it’s a maze in here, would you please hang back for a minute?!” [You’re senior, you should be okay asking for this kind of thing, it’s not necessarily going to be the first thought on someone’s mind and that’s okay].

      It’s most likely not personal at all but I get why it feels that way.

    4. mananana*

      The most likely answer is that she had something else she needed to attend to — and that her leaving you there had nothing to do with you. Same with the silent interns upon your return; it’s quite possible that what you thought of as “staring” at you was simply them looking at the person entering the room.

      As to how not to take it personally? Whenever the “why doesn’t she like me” thoughts creep in, you need to challenge that thought with other, more likely scenarios. Look into Cognitive Behavioral Therapy techniques for challenging negative thought patterns (or even better, find a CBT practitioner).

      1. The Man, Becky Lynch*

        This is a good point. I have learned to counteract my internal “why don’t they like me?!” or “Is there something wrong with me?!” kind of moments to tell myself “Why wouldn’t they like you? They don’t know you enough to make that decision.”

        It’s been a month. You’re a senior position. So they may just not “click” the same way they do with their peers. That’s normal! I’ve had it happen with people who I eventually have become close with.

        1. Kim, No Longer Esq.*

          Hahaahahaha yeah, I have to do this too. I am definitely a person who, when a group of teenagers on the bus starts laughing, assumes they are laughing at me. They’re almost certainly not, and even if they are, why do I care? Do a quick physical check to reassure myself that, like, I don’t have TP stuck to my shoe or my fly down or something, and then I just try really hard to focus on the idea that they have their own stuff going on and it has nothing to do with me. It’s tough, but the more often you consciously do it, the more automatic it becomes!

        2. Ra94*

          Yep, I have to really sternly tell myself, “You’re fine. You look normal, you’re acting normal, no one is staring at you, and no one cares what you’re doing” whenever I meet someone new or feel awkward. I find it helpful to remember that people are generally fairly self-involved (in a neutral, human nature kind of way) and while you think everyone saw you trip over that chair or drop that coffee, literally no one else cares.

          1. The Man, Becky Lynch*

            Yes yes yes, especially to the “generally fairly self-involved” part. That has been CRITICAL to my success in getting through my anxiety.

            I remind myself not to attach malicious intent to people. I had a rough go in school but children do not count, they are another beast. Adult humans rarely care enough and have their own lives and insecurities to deal with.

            1. Ra94*

              Yes! I find ‘no one is paying attention to you’ a lot more comforting than ‘these people really like you’, because I know objectively that not EVERYONE actively likes me, and it’s still a form of attention/focus.

    5. sunshyne84*

      They probably just feel awkward around a permanent employee especially being higher up than them. They may be scared to say the wrong thing and you influence someone not to hire them after their internship. Either way you say you’ve tried to make conversation and you are helping them as best you can and that’s pretty much all you can do. You just need to not take things so personally.

    6. Sleepytime Tea*

      You said you’re senior to them, and that may be all there is too it. They’re interns. They’re new. It may be awkward to them. They may assume you already know the building. They may feel weird talking to someone senior to them on a personal level because, you know, they’re interns and all this is new to them.

      Have you made an effort to get to know them on a personal level? While yeah, sometimes people just don’t like you, and it’s not awesome (I struggle with this myself), sometimes you also have to make sure that you put forth the effort to build a relationship. With you being the senior person, they may not feel comfortable trying to break into any type of social relationship with you.

    7. LawBee*

      Perspective: They’re interns. They’ll be gone in a month or so. They probably don’t want to hang out with you because they’d rather hang out with other interns.

    8. Not So NewReader*

      She’s an intern, you’re a full time employee?

      She may have figured because you out rank her you would directly ask her to stay. Or she may have figured that regular employees were supposed to learn their path through the maze.

      I can just picture her getting back to the room and the others saying, “You WHAT? You LEFT her there???”
      I recommend to assume they were in awe of you for finding your way back.

      There is a building here I go into once in a while. It’s the catacombs. I always wonder if I will ever see my car again in this lifetime. So far so good.

    9. L.S. Cooper*

      The reason they’d rather hang out with other interns probably has nothing to do with *you* and your personality. When I was interning, I spent all of my time with the other intern. We regularly went out to lunch, just the two of us, and on one occasion, ran into another group of people from our fairly small office at the same restaurant.
      We didn’t do this because we didn’t like the other people; we did it because we had more in common with each other than with the other employees, and we didn’t have to worry about not being professional enough if it was just us, because we were both at the bottom of the hierarchy.
      There’s also the life phase aspect to keep in mind with socialization. I have no friends at my current job. I chat with my boss and the other woman in my department sometimes, but we aren’t really friends, not like how people are with each other. But I’m a nerdy recent college grad in my first ever corporate job, and both of them are women who have been here about 10 years, both with kids around the same age; we just don’t have a whole lot in common. Same thing as an intern– the people we worked with ranged in age from a few years older (one guy finishing his degree while we were a sophomore and junior) to old enough to be our dads. (Literally, in my case– my dad worked for the company. And don’t worry, I didn’t steal an internship slot from another, more qualified candidate; the internship program at this company was essentially based on hiring people who just sort of asked. That’s how other!intern got her position!)
      As for not walking you back, I would probably have done the same, out of a fear of coming across as rude and underestimating the navigational abilities of a senior employee, whereas I wouldn’t have had an issue with interns, because we’d all be on the same level.

    10. Megasaurusus*

      I agree with everyone else, they’re interns – your permanent. You’re in totally different spheres of a hierarchical relation, even if you are similar in age.

      But beyond that I’d suggest reading “Nice Girls Don’t Get the Corner Office” by Louis Frankel – especially the section on transaction-based relationships. Not all encounters are emotionally meaningful, and that’s okay!

    11. Mr. Shark*

      I don’t think it’s a big deal that she didn’t stay with you and walk you back. I wouldn’t read anything into that.

      I am confused about this:

      I managed to find my way back, but when I got back to the room, the interns were all quiet and sat there staring at me. (It was very awkward.)

      When you got back to where the interns were, they just stared at you? That seems…odd. Did you say something inappropriate when she walked you to the copy room? It might be that they were talking about you (not necessarily bad things) and then you showed up, so they stopped talking and didn’t know what to say.

      But I wouldn’t worry about it too much. It’s only one month. You should continue to just be yourself and start conversations and see where it leads.

      1. Toxic Waste*

        She asked me how I liked my job/how things were going and I said that it’s busy, but I’m learning a lot and everyone has been very nice and helpful.

    12. Lilysparrow*

      This may or may not work for you, sometimes it works for me. I sometimes challenge thoughts like “why don’t they like me?” by pushing back on them rather aggressively.

      Why should they like me? We just met. We don’t know each other socially and wouldn’t hang out as friends if we did, because we’re at completely different stages of life and have nothing in common except that we both work for the same company.

      Why would they have an opinion of me at all? They are busy thinking about themselves and whatever intern summer drama they have going on.

      Why does it matter if they like me? – this one usually starts at the practical level, where the answer is that of course it has no impact on my work.

      But it also opens up the opportunity to consider where that emotional need to be liked is coming from, whether it’s even appropriate to the situation, and if not, why is it coming up in this context?

      Don’t bother doing this kind of thought exercise if it upsets you (particularly at work). It’s just something I’ve found helpful.

  4. Mad Scientist*

    Hi everyone,
    I work for a very large company, and I’m currently a (permanent) contractor. My department is on a hiring freeze, so I’m looking into other departments to attempt to get into an internal role. It’s notoriously difficult to get even an interview around here, so I’ve sent in at least 25 applications and have gotten 1 interview (I don’t think it’s my resume, I think it’s just how it is because they get SO many applicants.) On Tuesday, I applied for a job in a different area that I think I would be perfect for. Today, another job I would be qualified for popped up on the job board. I was used to applying for everything that I was qualified for because our company is so large, but, I think these are in the same area. Would it look bad to apply to both of them in such a short period of time? The one I already applied to was, for example, a teapot scientist, and the other one is for a senior teapot technician. I was considering waiting a week or two to see if I hear anything about the first one and applying to the second one if not, but I’m not sure and I would appreciate any advice.

    1. Buttons*

      This probably varies from company to company. At my company, we encourage people to apply to anything they are interested in, at any of our offices, in any department.
      Do you know a recruiter in the company who might be able to answer your questions? We encourage our contractors and employees to reach out to the recruiters and HR to get feedback on their applications, resume, and interview skills.
      Good luck!

    2. EngineerMom*

      Are the positions under different managers? In my company, a teapot scientist and a teapot technician in the same area would be working under different managers, and applying to both positions wouldn’t be considered odd.

      It’s also pretty commonplace in my company for someone who is looking to move into a different area to contact the hiring manager directly about being interested, and to get a little more information about the ideal kind of person they’d like to bring into the position. In many cases, the applicant’s current manager is also involved in the discussions, working out transitions, and helping the applicant apply to best-fit scenarios, given the applicant’s career goals.

      1. Mad Scientist*

        Thank you for your comment! Unfortunately, I don’t have any of that information. Since the company doesn’t sign my paychecks, even though I’m here every day I’m still considered “external.” The Internal job posting site has the information about the hiring managers etc., but the one I can see does not. I can’t contact any recruiters or anyone in HR, or have any help, because they don’t work for my company, and the people that do work for my company don’t work for the internal company.

        1. tamarack & fireweed*

          This sounds unnecessarily … compartmentalized. Getting an informal answer to clarify whether the two job postings are basically two open slots in the same group or two similar jobs in different groups of the same department should not really depend on you being an outsider on paper. But ok, since that what it is, I’d just assume the second and apply for both, noting the different reference numbers, URLs or whatever it differentiated them on the cover letter.

          That is, if it isn’t odd for the same applicant to be interested in either job description. (FTR, it could be, or couldn’t. I’ve applied for more and less senior scientist positions in the same department, financed out of the same grant, where the less senior position was like written for me, and the more senior position was one where I was qualified for on paper, but knew they’d get candidates with a stronger (longer!) record, but where the hiring manager suggested I apply nonetheless. (And which I am clearly not getting even an interview for.) It’s not weird in my field.)

          1. tamarack & fireweed*

            Also, it occurs to me that I’ve seen cases where the same department had, for example, an opening for a database administrator and a senior database administrator, and it would not have been odd for one person to apply for both. They’d be looking at the hiring as a package — and some will only apply for the senior job (while others will either only apply for the junior job or will be manifestly unsuited for it, so at best only get an interview for that one). The dual application reduces the awkwardness in case you get interviewed for the senior job, don’t get it, but then get the junior job offered (after a second interview process).

            If the jobs are of the same seniority level — say db admin and application programmer — it’s fine, too. But I’d make sure to differentiate well in your cover letter why you’re a good fit for either, without referring to the other job opening of course. You don’t want to sound like two completely different applicants, but you also want to make clear in each cover letter why you’re both enthusiastic and a great fit to tackling either role. (Cover letter writing is a lot like essay assignment. “Write the scene in the first person from POV of person A. Now from POV of person B. Now in the third person from the perspective of the police officer…”)

    3. Kiwiii*

      I don’t think it looks odd at all to apply for multiple positions in the same team. example 1) I work at a government agency and i would say it’s pretty often that we have two pretty different positions that could reasonably have similar backgrounds. I would say we always have 2 or 3 in the top group who have applied to both. example 2) when I was interviewing for this position, I also applied for a couple similar jobs at the state college across town. HR contacted me and suggested another almost as similar position and said that they were doing that with a couple other applicants who might have been good fits for all of them.

    4. a*

      Depending on their hiring practices, applying for one position might have no relation whatsoever to applying for a different position in the same area. So, you would need to apply for any position individually. (I work in state government – you apply by position number specifically, so while there is an overall “grade” that you get from the hiring center, you have to apply for each position individually with your “grade” that qualifies you to apply at all.)

      On top of that, if they are flooded with applicants…would they notice duplicate names in applications for different positions?

    5. Transplanty*

      I say apply, apply, apply! If they get offended at an application, that’s some good information for you.

      I had applied to jobs I was qualified for in one company (teapot engineer), and sprinkled a few apps in some related areas that I was looking to break into (teapot marketing). I was interviewing for the role I was already in and the recruiter was like oh I see you applied to teapot marketing, are you interested in that? I know the manager and she would be interested in talking to someone with your experience. That’s how I got my teapot marketing job!

      Don’t blanket apply – I have heard that before. It’s so tempting, especially when there’s check the box to apply to these batches of jobs options. Certainly feel free to apply to everything open in the groups you’re interested in. But don’t apply to everything from every group a to z hoping something sticks. That kind of action looks bad.

      What you described is totally fair game, in my mind!

    6. The Other Liz*

      I just decided today, after some agonizing this week, to apply for a position at a place where I applied for a very similar position 2 weeks ago. It’s the same job but on different teams. I barely changed my cover letter, but because the application instructions indicate to send an email to jobs @ org with the job title as the subject line, I assume that it autofilters, and only one team will have seen my application – I want the second hiring team to also consider me, but I mentioned in this email that I also applied to the first team. Others may say that wasn’t the best thing to do, but hiring teams don’t always talk to each other and sometimes HR raises privacy concerns with sharing resumes with colleagues. So you might do the same thing I did!

    7. Polymer Phil*

      If you haven’t been able to break out of a string of crappy Aerotek/Yoh/Kelly temp jobs doing lab technician/QC stuff, I’d strongly recommend trying to get into technical sales or some other kind of business-oriented job where your scientific experience would be a plus. You still get to be around science, and the money and job security are much better.

  5. annnyMoose*

    I am 3 months into my new job and want to ask for some temporary remote work accommodations. I asked my coworkers their thoughts and they think it’s doable but I’m skiddish!

    The turnover on our team is very high and my coworker who has been here for 4 months is quitting next week. She initially gave her reason for leaving as not being able to work remotely enough and they accommodated her- but she’s really leaving for other reasons. I travel almost every weekend during the summer- I have some personal travel and medical stuff going on- and having the flexibility to work remote on Fridays and Mondays during this season would be immensely helpful.

    I joked to a teammate and other coworker about asking for this and they said the team would probably be open to it. My company is generally pretty open to remote work(you don’t need a ‘reason’ to do it) but there are different rules across depts and my managers tend to WFH once a week.

    I’m nervous because I’ve gotten some really mixed feedback here. My boss said I seem frustrated with my job and not engaged- but I am getting my work done, hitting deadlines, etc. I think she’s unsure if I’m happy here and in the role and she wants me to be happy. I don’t know how they would view giving me an accommodation like this but I also know they absolutely can’t afford to lose me. I don’t want to seem out of touch but I also know in the past, I haven’t taken advantage of some perks and flexibility I most likely would have gotten because of this fear. I most likely wouldn’t need to WFH this often but I’d rather ask assuming I won’t get it all.

    1. Lance*

      Just ask your boss! Lay out what you’re hoping for, work with her in figuring out how you might make it work for everyone, and don’t be afraid that something’s going to happen just because you asked. Perks exist for a reason, and if you don’t have any reason to think your boss is a bad boss (and, from what you’ve said so far, it doesn’t sound like you do), then you shouldn’t have anything at all to lose by just asking for what you want, especially when it’s in line with what might be allowable.

      Good luck!

    2. lz*

      I think generally you can totally ask about this, and worst case is they say it’s not possible. I don’t think they’d look down on you for it. However, because you are only three months in and your boss has already expressed that she’s worried if you are engaged enough, I wouldn’t ask this summer. I think next year when you are more established would be fine, but if my new employee asked to not be in the office two out of five days a week I’d worry that they weren’t going to have the face time to get to know their coworkers, ask for help, be well supervised and checked in on regularly, etc.

      1. WellRed*

        I agree here, especially since you want Fridays and Mondays off, which risks looking like you want a four-day wknd.

      2. Fortitude Jones*

        However, because you are only three months in and your boss has already expressed that she’s worried if you are engaged enough

        These are the biggest barriers to getting a yes – OP’s newness and seeming lack of engagement. If you go to your manager,OP, and make this request now, she’s going to be convinced that her impression of you being checked out of this job is true – perception is everything. If you’re not in fact checked out, for your sake, you need to have as much face time with your manager and the rest of your colleagues right now so she can believe you like it there and want to do the work.

      3. That Girl From Quinn's House*

        TBH, if you’re in a job for three months, your engagement is mostly the responsibility of your boss. If you haven’t been provided adequate training, orientation, work, and general explanations of How We Do Things Here and Here’s What You Should Do, to be engaged in your job, instead of tentative, that is her failing.

        I would consider this a red flag for the job, honestly.

    3. SezU*

      My tack is to make it about how it’s good for the company, and not just my convenience. Also, if you don’t ask, the answer is always no.

    4. Transplanty*

      I’d look at approaching it from an ADA / accommodations for medical reasons perspective primarily – or whatever legislation you have if you’re not in the US.

      You could pursue formal accommodations and that usually starts with HR and a note from your doctor, and once approved, HR tells your manager what they have to allow (but not your diagnosis).

      So you have two options – ask, if they say no, pursue accommodations. If they say yes, you’re already fine. Or just pursue accommodations from the start. Depends on how weary you are.

      I might ask first and send an email basically saying “i am in the process of managing some medical conditions that are going to impact my general health in the next few weeks until we get it under control – I am taking the appropriate steps to get there. Something that would help me manage my workflow and health would be working remotely on Monday and Fridays. Is that something we can work out?”

      You could also ask for T/R instead – that gives you a day off between work days and has the chance to look less like you’re just angling for long weekends. Unless the length of time is what you need to recover.

    5. Not So NewReader*

      Why would you seem frustrated with your job? Is she just nervous because of the high turnover?

      I think I would go ahead and ask. You can preface it with an “easy out” such as “I understand if you say no, but I wanted to ask…..”

    6. BeeGee*

      Being new to the role, I would be wary about mentioning it for multiple weekends of vacation. Even if you believe that you have more sway given the turnover at the business, you might get unfairly labeled early on as someone who isn’t committed, especially given your bosses early comments on your efforts thus far (whether it’s fair or not from their perspective). If you have one particular trip this summer that you could benefit from having that flexibility, I would limit it to the one request for now.

      But if your request for remote work truly stems from medical reasons, you should definitely request it and frame it as such to your boss. Your health is paramount and good employers should offer flexibility in these instances.

      Even if you get work and projects done, know that you will always draw more scrutiny working remotely versus in the office. This coming from someone who was working remotely full time, I occasionally had to combat my boss getting paranoid when I would miss a single call from him due to a 5-10 min bathroom break, or getting a second cup of coffee from my kitchen. Yes, he was a jerk about it, and I firmly discussed with him that it was unreasonable for him to be that way in those instances. I felt like I had to work harder remotely versus in person just because I had to make sure I could prove to my boss that I was using my 9-5 effectively for work and not abusing the lack of oversight for other things.

      1. Fortitude Jones*

        Your boss sounds ridiculous. I work remotely, and outside of the occasional call and our team meetings, my manager barely contacts me – I love having this much autonomy.

  6. Frustrated 3L*

    Are there any arts-related IP attorneys who would be willing to give a frustrated 3L some advice?

    I am currently a 3L at a respectably ranked midwestern law school. I had a somewhat rough 1L year due to some latent medical problems which have now been resolved. Although I had a solid 3.1 GPA (B average) my 1L year, I was unsurprisingly passed over by a lot of the big firms during OCIs last summer. I worked incredibly hard 2L year, and am now in the top 25% of my class with a great GPA. I am a summer associate at a small boutique firm. I enjoy the culture and my colleagues, but not the very niche area. Although I’m confident I’ll receive an offer from this firm, I’m not sure that this is what I want to do with my career. But, if I stayed, I could absolutely make the best of it.

    If possible, I want to break into IP law. I have interned at an art museum as their trademark and copyright intern since 2018 and I absolutely love my job.

    The only problem? I do not have a science background, so patents are pretty much off the table. I understand that patents make up a huge part of IP law, but they’re not the end all, be all. I have been told by so many people that no, you’ll never make it in this field, so don’t even bother. The stubborn person in me is now saying screw that, I want to make it happen.

    If any lawyers or IP lawyers have any advice – not matter how small – for finding a job during 3L year outside of OCI, I would greatly appreciate it. My law school does have a career services office but they haven’t been super helpful in my experience.

    I won’t be able to respond quickly because I am at work, but any help would be so, so appreciated.

    1. CTT*

      Not an IP lawyer (but a lawyer): would you feel comfortable talking to someone at the art museum where you interned about their career path? If you were working under other lawyers there, they may have more knowledge about how to break into that part of the field and the non-science side of it.

      1. Frustrated 3L*

        My position is unique; I am supervised by my university’s office of general counsel, so I don’t have immediate access to an arts IP lawyer. I am basically the only legal person at the museum. But, my boss (who is awesome) is helping me as much as she can even though IP isn’t her specialty.

      2. Officious Intermeddler*

        Not an IP lawyer (but another lawyer): CTT is right on. Look around on Linkedin or through specialty bar associations to try to find the person who has the job you think you want. Then just message/call and ask how that person got there, and whether your plan is realistic. That person will know and will probably just tell you. Honestly, I have done this before when I was thinking about changing jobs, and I have fielded plenty of calls from law students and other attorneys wondering about the same thing. At least in my neighborhood, lawyers are always willing to talk about themselves.

    2. Alice*

      Maybe academic libraries, or big public research libraries? They have a lot of copyright issues to deal with too, and no patents.

    3. University of Trantor*

      I am speaking from the perspective of a non-practicing attorney who works in higher ed.

      Even with a JD and good grades from a top-14 law school, getting into art-IP law (or sports/entertainment law) straight out of law school is going to be pretty challenging. The jobs are few and far between and generally filled with very-experienced lawyers. There’s more jobs for non-patent IP law (copyrights and trademarks), but it’s still a somewhat niche field.

      Personally, I don’t know of anyone from my JD class (of about 350 at a T14) who is in art law. For the small handful I know who are in sports/entertainment law, they worked 4-8 years in more generalized corporate law, generally at a firm with a few clients in sports and entertainment. They made efforts to work more with those particular clients and parlayed that experience into working in-house. Many also had work experience in that field prior to law school.

      If you want to pursue this, I’d aim to end up at a firm that has some art-related clients and also has a decent non-patent IP practice area (and a willingness to at least let you dabble in it). Aim to put in 7 years at the firm (or jump to a similar firm) and then see what your in-house options look like. I will caution that the in-house option is liable to pay a lot less by that point in your career.

      Since the economy is doing well (and you’re doing well at what I assume is either a top-50 law school or the best law school in your state), there is still the possibility of being hired this fall, or even spring, for your post-graduation job at a biglaw (or medium-sized) firm. I wouldn’t necessarily bank on this, though. It’s a higher-risk approach than below.

      As for your current 2L summer firm, you say you enjoy the culture and your colleagues but not so much the work. While I wouldn’t advise people to go into a practice area they hate, if it’s more ambivalence than active loathing, I’d give serious consideration to accepting an offer from your 2L firm. Lots of attorneys, especially new ones, work at firms where they do not like the work, the culture, or their colleagues. You’d get 2/3 and what sounds like a decent launchpad for your legal career.

      1. Federal Middle Manager*

        I second this advice and it is similar to my experience. I observed that, in the legal field, there was very little correlation between areas of practice that people were interested in/enthusiastic about and the jobs they got post-graduation. Our school even had “certificates” in some hot practice areas, but, for example, I don’t know anyone who actually landed an environmental law job after getting an environmental law certificate. There are just too many lawyers, and I think the hiring theory is higher the “best” person (school rank, GPA, internships) and give them the job, not the person who is enthusiastic about the practice area.

      2. Frustrated 3L*

        I’m seriously considering staying if I can’t find anything else. How much would it hurt your career to stay in one law job and then move after a few years? Would working at a niche firm hurt your chances of moving to a different area?

          1. Frustrated 3L*

            Unfortunately, no. My firm is only one of a handful in this area. A google search of the field would turn up my firm and probably my name. There are some transferrable skills, like litigation and compliance work, but the subject matter is ridiculously focused.

            1. Ginevra Farnshawe*

              Understood. To answer your general question it is common-to-expected that you will switch jobs relatively early in your career. As far as switching practice areas, that gets harder the further out you get. So, if, for example, you do, say, baltic airline restructurings, currently, you can still explain your way into a totally different field until you are two, maybe three years out. Later than that, you can still switch practice areas but difficult to switch to a totally *unrelated* practice area. Switching firms will remain easyish/typical until 5ish years out, still possible after that, but harder. (But then there are a bunch of other options and that is waaaay down the road anyway.)

      3. Katefish*

        +1 – I haven’t transitioned internal areas of law, but it’s MUCH easier to get a new job after bar results and work/court experience. Good luck!

    4. blackcat*

      An acquaintance of mine is in-house IP counsel for NBC Universal.
      The giant media corps have tons in-house IP stuff that is not copyright/creative IP, not patent IP. I’m not sure how to get one of those jobs, but maybe that’s a place to look? She likes being in-house counsel because she doesn’t have to play the billable hours game. She gets paid less than BigLaw, but makes enough to pay off her loans and she only works ~40-45 hours/week.
      It might very well make sense to get a start at your boutique firm, and then switch. That’s what she did–she worked at a mid-sized firm for a few years before getting her current job.

    5. The Rain In Spain*

      One option: if there’s an IP-specific bar group or organization in the area, reach out and see if you can attend some events. I find that many lawyers are more than willing to give advice/share insight, and that type of networking may even give you some job leads. I am not an IP lawyer (though I did briefly consider it!), but I don’t think you’ll be precluded from doing IP work just because you don’t have a science background (and it doesn’t sound like you’re looking to take the patent bar!). Practicing IP attorneys will be able to give you the best guidance- I was able to find some in my area that were willing to speak to me on an informational basis when I was starting out. Just be prepared and keep it short if you do set up a meeting with them. You can also look at alums who practice IP law and reach out to them directly.

      Good luck!

      1. In Da House counsel*

        Google your state + “Lawyers for the Arts” – nearly every state has a chapter, and most operate a free/low cost legal clinic. I ran the legal clinic for my state’s chapter for a couple of years, then served on the board for a number of years after. Great way to meet IP lawyers.

    6. JaneB*

      Probably useless anecdote-data, but if you want some “it’s possible” inspiration, I have a friend who did a history degree, then law, who now works in-house on copyright and IP for a major publishing company (books are her Thing, so she went that route). So at least one person has made a career in that area!

      1. JaneB*

        She also worked at a large international firm for a few years before making the switch for less pay, less hours and huge job satisfaction (plus they often get to help themselves to remaindered and end of run books for free!)

      2. Frustrated 3L*

        Your friend’s path lines up with my background! History major, worked for three years after college, then to law school. It’s really encouraging to see that others have made it work, even though I know it will be hard.

    7. Ginevra Farnshawe*

      Lots of ways to do this, especially if you’re not committed to litigation–though even if you are, it’s possible. I’m speaking as a general commercial litigator with some arts/entertainment clients in non IP matters, as well as a bunch of software copyright work, who has friends who have ended up in IP through various paths. Don’t even worry about patent work, it’s its own world. As far a soft IP, think about trade secrets as well as copyright/trademark, opens up a lot of opportunities.

      Some other very preliminary thoughts: your local bar association almost certainly has an arts law committee and other committees relevant to your interests, go to those committee’s events and write the panelists after to ask for a meeting. They usually have cheap tickets for students. (I find local associations a lot more useful than, for example, the ABA.)

      Trademark is probably less saturated than copyright–not that you have to pigeonhole yourself yet–and a lot of the best trademark firms don’t have the same kind of overall name recognition as the big firms you probably spoke to during OCI and won’t sneer at a rough 1L year. They also often don’t hire brand new lawyers, and your school’s career office doesn’t know the first thing about them so has nothing to offer. You could do a lot worse than taking a job at the firm you’re at now or another general practice firm, and getting in touch with legal recruiters early on (as well as watching job boards, which a lot more firms use than they used to), with the expectation you will move in a year or two. (More than three and it gets trickier–not to switch firms, but to switch practice areas). Don’t know how niche your current practice is but most lawyering is transferrable skills and an early career move from an area of practice you don’t care about to one you do is incredibly common and not difficult for you or a recruiter to sell. Re recruiters, several ways to make that happen, but they will find you on LinkedIn if you have the right keywords–keep the museum work on there–and the “open to opportunities” setting.
      Recruiters will try to tell you you should work exclusively with them, which is really just not true, especially if you are looking at smaller/midsized firms, so don’t listen to that. Your museum work is a big deal. May be that if you get an offer from your current place they’ll let you keep doing some of that pro bono–worth asking. Keep it on your firm bio regardless (“prior to joining Teapot & Kettle LLP, Frustrated was a trademark and copyright intern at the Illinois Museum of Taxidermy.”)

      Another path I have seen folks take are govt. jobs involving asset forfeiture–interesting repatriation/valuation issues–but that can involve some ugly work too, especially early on.

    8. Glomarization, Esq.*

      If you get an offer with your current firm, go ahead and take it. But also investigate which of the larger firms near you have entertainment/arts practice areas, and apply to them. If you’re hired you probably can’t choose your practice area right away, but you can have a 5-year plan or something to end up there. In the meantime, join the IP group or committee in your local/regional bar association. You’ll meet firm lawyers and also solo lawyers doing this kind of work.

      Join the board of directors of a local arts organization. I also like In Da House counsel’s suggestion to volunteer with your local “lawyers for the arts” organization.

      One thing to understand is that the big players — symphony orchestras, book publishers, museums, well-known artists themselves — tend not to hire small-firm and solo lawyers. They already have long-standing arrangements with their own local Biglaw and/or they draw their in-house counsel from Biglaw, and both parties thrive on the perceived prestige of being associated with each other.

      This path was unrealistic for me. So I’ve found arts-related work by doing generalist work for artists: help them get their 501(c)(3) determination letters, settle a payment dispute in their day job, oh, and negotiate a licensing agreement here and there as well.

      Good luck! IP law is tough to break into.

    9. Ginevra Farnshawe*

      Really, I am eye-rolling at whoever is saying “you’ll never make it in this field, why bother.” Of course nothing is ever guaranteed and it’s good to stay flexible, but it’s perfectly reasonable to shoot for if you have interest/aptitude. FFS it’s IP law, not like, becoming a late-in-life ballerina.

      1. Frustrated 3L*

        Right! It was a partner at a biglaw networking event in the nearby midsize midwestern city. I got the feeling that this guy was a jerk, and that comment cemented it.

    10. Anonymousse*

      I also second University of Trantor’s comment below because I had a law school classmate who had a previous career and advanced education background from an elite university in archaelogy who had trouble finding an art law/soft IP position with median grades out of an upper T14.

      I believe USPTO has a special Honors Program for entry level trademark attorneys (the application opens typically in the fall). It’s really hard to break into soft IP sans technical background as a firm associate because there are so many qualified candidates but this is one of those things where the more experience you have, the more desirable you’ll be as a job candidate.

      1. Anonymousse*

        *educational” and I meant to say to refer the comment above my own. This Friday afternoon has not been kind to my brain so please forgive my typos.

    11. Coverage Associate*

      Senior associate here. I don’t know how to break into “soft” IP (ie not patents). I do know that I was pretty dismayed at the partners’ reaction to a 3L applicant with lots of experience in another practice area. I guess they were worried if we hired him, he’d leave quickly because he really wanted to be in that practice area. Post recession, I think new lawyers are happy to have almost any steady job, and I hate putting people in small professional boxes before they’re even out of school.

      1. Frustrated 3L*

        Yeah, that is exactly what I’m worried about. The more I’ve worked at this firm this summer, the more I’ve realized I don’t know anything. If I can’t get into IP right away, I at least want to learn and grow as much as I can as a young associate. To be honest, besides a class on IP and my externship, I haven’t solely focused on it through my classes (mostly because my law school is fairly small so we don’t have a robust menu of classes anyway). So I’m probably just as qualified to do almost anything else.

    12. TheRunningFlan*

      Publishing has a growing need for rights managers and IP lawyers. I’d recommend looking into places like University Presses and sites like Publishers Marketplace to see which big publishers or smaller indie presses are in need of help!

    13. SciDiver*

      Not a lawyer, but my partner is finishing up law school this year at a small school that’s pretty highly ranked for it’s IP program. Anecdotes only here, no real data but 1) she connected during her 1L with an IP attorney in Small East Coast City who does all the patent litigation for his small firm and never took the patent bar since he’s not doing any prosecution, and 2) a fellow summer associate at the larger firm she’s currently at is part of the IP team but has no science background at all and little to no IP experience (and will likely be getting an offer to stay in their IP division). I don’t doubt it’s been tough for these two to navigate the IP world without that box checked off, but it’s doable! No advice for next year, but I’m glad you’re keeping at it and congrats on bringing up your GPA and rank, that’s a lot of hard work.

    14. Zenomorph*

      You might want to think outside the box, in terms of employers. I worked at a famous PBS station that produces lots of well-known PBS TV shows. This organization had multiple entertainment law lawyers and paralegals who dealt with copyright, licensing, trademark, talent issues, contracts, etc. But this was a non-profit, so pay was not great.

    15. Lurky Lurkerson*

      I’m late to this party, but here are a couple of things to consider:

      It’s very impressive to turn your GPA around like you did! One way to highlight that on your resume is through something like “GPA: 3.XX (2L GPA: 3.YY)”.

      If there is anyone on your faculty (including adjuncts) who teaches or practices in copyright or trademark law, you might want to talk to them about your career interests/plans, if you haven’t already. You mentioned that your career services office hasn’t been super helpful, but that doesn’t necessarily tell you anything about how helpful members of your faculty might be. They might be connected to (or at least aware of) firms or organizations of interest to you, or they might not, but it’s probably worth a conversation. (I’m a law prof, and a lot of us really like to be helpful in this way when we can!)

    16. Mockingbird*

      I’ve been practicing in soft IP (non-patent IP) for about 25 years, in the licensing field, drafting and negotiating license agreements. (Like you, I don’t have a hard science undergrad.) There’s lots of work, and I’ve enjoyed my practice. I will say that for me it’s mostly software licensing, but some art and literary licensing occasionally comes my way. I shifted into this field from general corporate transactional law/M&A when I was about 5 years out of law school.

      Personally, I’d say take the boutique firm’s offer unless you find something better before they make you an offer (unlikely), give it a year or two and then start looking around again.

  7. Bee's Knees*

    Yesterday was super not fun. I am pretty sure that now that our friend Hellmouth is no longer in the Hellmouth, the energy has dissipated to other places. One of them is here. I had to fix some payroll issues, deal with a cranky boss, feed what was supposed to be 50 but turned out to be 65 people, take some unexpected conference calls, and go get a… toothpaste from my doctor, because people don’t give their hobgoblins toothpaste, and they spread lollipops. And I don’t want to die from a preventable… cavity. And if you think I’m talking about something else, I’m sure you’re mistaken. I also made one guy mad, because one of the conference calls was with our payroll people to try and get some things sorted out, and he needed some non-urgent paperwork that I made him wait for.

    Our local Italian place also lied to me. They say their trays can feed 18 to 20 people. Really, it’s like 15 maybe if those people are full grown and hungry men. So I’m pretty sure we ran out of food. I’m not sure, because I had to leave to go get on a conference call that I was told started at 12:30. I dialed in, and greeted the other participants, who were surprised I was there. Our call started at 1:00. I hung up and did not mention it when it was our turn.

    I’m very glad to have the weekend off. I’ve been super tired lately, the kind where you could cry at the smallest upset. Yesterday was so bad I pulled up the Georgia Aquarium webcam (aquariums are soothing) and did some deep breathing. I think I need some time off.

    Hope everyone has a lovely weekend, full of rest.

    Also, thanks to everyone who recommended dress pants with actual pockets in the open thread a couple of weeks ago. I got some from Banana Republic, and I could fit my whole hand just past my wrist in there!

      1. Bee's Knees*

        They have a bunch of them! https://www.georgiaaquarium.org/webcam/ocean-voyager/
        This is the big tank, but they have others too. I like it because I have two monitors, and there isn’t sound with it. It’s easy to have on while you’re working, because it’s super unlikely you’ll miss something, and it doesn’t matter if you have to step away for a minute.

        2. Seeking Second Childhood*

          AND A PUFFIN CAM!!! I’m so hoping it’s “just” outside the corporate firewall and not offline permanently because, well, Puffins are cute.

      3. Peachkins*

        National Aquarium in Baltimore has several as well. Blacktip Reef is my favorite.

        Sorry you’re having issues, OP. Hope you enjoy a relaxing weekend as well!

    2. Construction Safety*

      Unremarkably, trays which are supposed to feed 15 people, certainly do not feed 15 construction workers. I double the orders.

      1. Bee's Knees*

        I think if I had added one more tray, we would have been fine. Boss went and picked up a couple of pizzas, and most of those were left. I’ll know for in the future though!

      1. Forrest Rhodes*

        Second the yay! But how did I miss this? Have been looking for her updates—when did this happen?

        1. Bee's Knees*

          A couple of weeks ago? I’ve been not at work the last two Fridays, so the week before that?

        2. Peachkins*

          A couple weeks back. She found a new, but almost identical job but with a better company. I was hoping to hear how the new gig was going, but I don’t think she posted anything last week.

          1. I WORKED on a Hellmouth*

            I took the whole week off from internetting and the like so I could detox a little before I started the new gig.

          1. Jules the 3rd*

            Not last week, but the one before, so Jun 28th. Before the Hellmouth computer system went down Jul 1…

        4. I WORKED on a Hellmouth*

          I got out a little over two weeks ago! I posted about it that Friday, but was unplugged last week so no post-Hellmouth write ups since then.

        1. Daniela*

          Webcam…thank you so much!! I’m going to fill my Friday with this, and calming, mindless spreadsheets. :-)

    5. Dame Judi Brunch*

      Bee’s Knees, I’m so sorry about your crummy week! It sounds exhausting.
      I missed Hellmouth’s update, that is great news!

      1. Jackers*

        I think it’s code for vaccinations… and you can take the rest of the analogy from there.

    8. I WORKED on a Hellmouth*

      NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!

      The Hellmouth is definitely lashing out. It even specifically reached out to me at the new job this week. So this is plausible. I suggest garlic, holy water, and rock salt stockpiling until it dies down.

      1. Forrest Rhodes*

        LOL, and really glad to hear of your escape–though selfishly, I’ll miss your lively and absorbing updates. Even while I was saying, “She’s GOT to get outta there!” I’d be laughing out loud at the way you presented them.
        Can’t help you out with the holy water, but let me know if you’re running low on garlic and rock salt.
        All the best to you!

        1. I WORKED on a Hellmouth*

          HA! I just snorted in the middle of the new office and had to make it seem like a sneeze.

    9. sun of two normal distributions*

      “I’ve been super tired lately, the kind where you could cry at the smallest upset.”

      I felt this on a spiritual level. Hope you have the most restful weekend!

  8. Sister Spider*

    This is a pretty simple question, but as a phone-phobic Old Millenial ™, how should I answer the phone at work? I’m not a receptionist but I occasionally confer with outside parties and everything feels awkward.

    1. Adlib*

      If I’m answering an internal call, I just say “This is [Name].” If I’m answering an outside call, I say basically the same, just with “hello” on the front of it.

    2. No Tribble At All*

      “Hi, this is Sister Spider, how can I help you?” if you know people are calling you directly, or, if you represent a department: “Hi, this is Sister Spider, Web Development, how can I help you?”

    3. ZSD*

      I say, “Teapots Incorporated, this is ZSD,” for external calls. For internal calls, I say, “This is ZSD.”

      1. A. Ham*

        This is exactly what I do.
        Except if it is internal and the name comes up on my phone as someone I know well/work with often, i just say “hi”. :-)

      3. New Normal*

        That’s what I do! And I’ve been complimented on my phone etiquette so apparently it works.

    4. Box of Kittens*

      “Thanks for calling Company, this is Name, how can I help you?” Feels weird at first but you’ll get used to it. People who call businesses expect this type of response. Better than just “Hello” because if they’ve dialed the wrong company or extension they know right away.

      1. LKW*

        This works for external callers but I’d take off the “this is company name” for internal calls.

      2. She's One Crazy Diamond*

        I had someone respond “What’s up?” once when I called their business (they definitely did not personally know me). It was so bizarre I didn’t know how to respond, but I definitely thought I could’ve dialed the wrong number.

      3. zora*

        I feel like this is too long, honestly. I mean, it probably depends on the company, we don’t get a ton of cold outside calls, it’s usually people who know our company or other employees calling my phone. But I just do a simple: “Company, This is Zora”. People are not as used to phone calls any more these days and a long greeting just feels loonggg.

        1. Rosaline Montague*

          I agree. This is the script I had to use at OldJob and even in 2000 it felt a bit too long

      4. tamarack and fireweed*

        That only works if you expect calls from customers or clients, and B2C customers (rather than B2B customers at that). I work in a university, and not in a department where I’d expect random students to call with inquiries. Most call that I might get are for me, personally. Most of them will be internal. External calls usually will be from someone who would have gotten my name, specifically, from someone else, or from someone I know. So for me it’s usually fine to say “Hi, this is [given name] speaking.” Sometimes — an external call from a caller ID that rings no bell at all, I use [full name] instead of [given name].

        But the question to ask is really who calls and what information they need. When I call the IT department, HR, certain grant offices or units, or another of a number of well-identified department that will be called by people who have a question from that *department* as a whole, it’s usually “X department, this is [name]”. As we are in an informal part of the world, [name] means whatever version people are most comfortable with. (Which can be a bit funny if you call the vice-chancellor for research and are greeted with “This is Harry!”, but chances are he isn’t available directly and his assistant will get the call, in which case it’s “VCR Office”. Personal assistants tend to be the only ones who don’t say their own name.

    5. Not Me*

      Have you noticed how your co-workers answer the phone? With an outside call a lot of people answer it “Company Name this is Sister Spider, how can I help you?” or with internal I hear a lot of simply “This is Sister Spider”.

    6. Matilda Jefferies*

      For external calls, or internal calls from people I don’t know well, I say “Matilda Jefferies speaking.” If it’s someone I know well, I usually just say “Matilda speaking.”

      Even though I usually know who’s calling, I don’t lead with their name (Hi Sister Spider!) unless we’re REALLY close friends or we’ve been having one of those conversations with multiple calls back and forth throughout the day.

    7. Ruth (UK)*

      I think it depends on what kind of office you work in and how likely people are to know you already if they call… But I normally just answer stating who/where I am. So, if I worked in the Admissions office of a university, I might say, “Hello, Admissions.” or if I worked in the Linguistics Reception I’d say, “Hello, Linguistics Reception”. In my old job, (let’s say the company was called Teapots Incorporated) it was a small enough company that I would answer with just, “Hello, Teapots Incorporated.” If I’ve picked up someone else’s phone for them, I might say, “Hello, this is Bob’s phone, Ruth speaking”.

      If I am being called internally and I can see who’s calling me, and I know them, I often just say, “Hi Bob” (though sometimes they say, “oh I’m just using Bob’s phone!”).

      If you’re really stuck, I’d just go for, “Hello, [name] speaking”

    8. MCL*

      Good morning/afternoon, [my department name,] this is MyName!
      Or
      Good morning/afternoon, this is MyName!

      Enough information to let them know they’ve called the right number is all you need! Keep it short, polite, and simple, and you’re all good. (From one millennial to another.)

    9. epi*

      When I had to answer the phone 90% of calls were internal from my organization, and maybe 60-70% internal from my department. So my response just depended on if I could see the call was coming from my department or another one.

      My department: “This is epi”
      Other department: “Medical Imaging Research, this is epi”

      The occasional external call would get a full sentence like “Medical Imaging Research at Mars University Hospital, this is epi” if I expected it to be a patient/someone with a right to be calling me. And just “this is epi” if I had reason to suspect spam/sales/wrong number.

      1. RabbitRabbit*

        This is how I do it, working at a hospital.

        I don’t get too informal – maybe just answering it as “hello!” if I know the caller pretty well – as sometimes people will talk at someone’s desk and then borrow the person’s phone to call someone else.

        I saw a doctor borrow a coworker’s phone to call someone who turned out to be the friend of the coworker – and said other person answered the phone with something like “hey chica, ‘sup!” and confused the doctor. The other person said later she was glad she wasn’t a bit more salty in her language that day.

    10. cmcinnyc*

      I answer, Company Name, This is My Name. (Like Acme Hardware, this is Jane!) I know my dad just barks his full name into the phone because once I called home while he was deep in a project at the dining room table and that’s how he answered.

      1. Sally*

        I usually just answer with my full name, but now I’m thinking I might need to change that to “Hi, this is Sally.” Unless I make an effort not to, I know I can come across as unfriendly, and I don’t want people to be put off. (I don’t FEEL unfriendly, but I’m shy, and that’s how it comes across.)

    11. BlueWolf*

      Generally, if I can see it’s an external call, I answer with “[Company Name], this is [my name]”. If it’s internal, I’ll usually just answer with “Hi, this is [my name]” if it’s someone I don’t usually speak with or sometimes I just say “Hi [their name]” if it’s someone who calls me a lot since I can see who is calling on the caller ID.

    12. Free Meerkats*

      If I look at CID, external – “{Division name}, this is Meerkats.” Internal – “This is Meerkats.”

      If I don’t look, external version.

    14. Pay No Attention To The Man Behind The Curtain*

      If it’s an outside line, I say the name of the organization… “Thank you for calling Teapot University, this is Man Behind the Curtain, how may I help you.” If it’s internal and I don’t recognize the caller, I say my name, “This is Man Behind the Curtain” …with a friendly upward inflection. If it’s internal and I do recognize the name I say “Hi Fergus, what’s up?” If it’s internal and I know the person and I know they will talk my ear off and try to dictate paragraphs of content to me rather than write it down in an email…I let that sh*t go to voicemail.

      1. Pay No Attention To The Man Behind The Curtain*

        Just don’t do what I’ve done and accidentally blurt out the name of a company you worked at 20 years ago — thanks middle age brain — or “Ok, I love you, bye,” when ending the call.

    15. Holly Flax*

      I vary my response depending on how people are routed to me to avoid confusion. We have an automated receptionist at work so my responses vary based on how they come to me. I say “Hello, this is Holly” if I can tell they were routed by using my extension, “Company Name, this is Holly” if they use my direct number or “Human Resources, this is Holly” if they come in from the dial by department directory. Any one of these responses is pretty standard.

    16. Moray*

      As another phone-phobic I’ve found that the important thing is to decide on your greeting and stick with it, maybe even practice in advance. The more confident your opening line is, the more confident you will feel for the rest of the call. And silly as it seems, you can also have a few more stock phrases to drill into your brain so they feel more natural when you pull them out:

      “I’m not sure off the top of my head, give me just a minute and I’ll find that out for you.”
      “Oh, you’re very welcome!”
      “Hold on just a moment, I’ll transfer you.”
      “Thank you, I appreciate your time.”
      “I hope that was helpful!”
      “Feel free to give me a call back if you have any other questions.”

      Also, know how to clearly spell out your email address so you can give it over the phone! Memorize the commonly-mistaken letters (like D and B) in their phonetic-alphabet (“Sure! My email is D-as-in-dog, O, L, B-as-in-boy) etc, so you don’t have to repeat yourself a bunch.

      1. EH*

        I 100% practiced when I was in a role that included answering the phone. And I agree about the spelling things out – I sort of learned it by accident when I had to correct people a lot for my name (which is a weird one). Thinking about that in advance helps a lot.

    17. The Man, Becky Lynch*

      Outside parties should be greeted with “Business Name”, “Your Name” and “How may I help you?” in most situations, especially if they may be customers. Always add the business name because man it STINKS to realize you have the wrong GD number because you just called up Company and they started out with “This is Sarah, how may I help you?” and you are talking only to be told “Oh gurl, you’ve got the wrong number.” Instead if you hear ‘This is Amazon, how may I help you?” you go “OH darn I meant to call WalMart, sorry about that.”

      But really, seriously. Every company is different. Ask someone or listen to how your colleagues do it! Most don’t have a huge script and it’s really easy to pick up on.

    18. Marzipan*

      Some offices have a specific formula they want you to follow, in which case go with that.

      Otherwise, I go with something combining:

      – what organisation/department this is
      – who I am
      – a greeting

      So, maybe “Good morning, Spout Department, Marzipan speaking,” or whatever.

    19. I GOTS TO KNOW!*

      Because our phone systems don’t always show if it is a transfer, even if I think it is a coworker, I answer the phone “Thanks for calling Penguins Inc, this is I GOTS”

    21. MarfisaTheLibrarian*

      Keep it simple, include the necessary information. “Good morning, *my name*” or “Good morning, *department*” is usually good. I get annoyed by call center/customer service opening lines of “Good morning, thank you for calling *company*, NAME speaking, how can I help you today.”
      People want to know that they’ve reached the person or department that they needed to reach, so that’s all you *need* to include. A “hello” or “good morning” is nice.

      1. Pay No Attention To The Man Behind The Curtain*

        +1 on the call center speak — I hate when they throw in gimmicky marketing phrases, “I’m here to serve” “The home of sparkly spouts” “What can I make fresh for you today?” “Today is a beautiful day at Sunny Farms.”

    22. Anonymous Educator*

      I usually go with something like “Hi, this is Sister Spider,” and then let the person identify herself and say what she’s calling me about.

    23. Mbarr*

      I only get phone calls from people contacting me specifically (e.g. “I want to speak to Mbarr” and not “I want to speak to someone in X department”), so I just reply, “[First Name Last Name] speaking.”

      (My fave was when I worked in a French office. My job was in English and therefore when the phone rang, it was usually a wrong number, or work related. When I first started, I’d answer the phone in French, but that would prompt the person to start talking really fast in French and I wouldn’t follow… After awhile, I started answering the phone in English – the person immediately realized they had the wrong number, would apologize, then hang up.)

    24. WonderingHowIGotIntoThis*

      “Good morning/afternoon, Company Name, Wondering speaking” (external calls)
      “Hello, Wondering” (internal calls)

    25. LGC*

      Oh, I hear you! In some sense, I’m really glad we have desk phones and VoIP – that means I can usually see who’s calling.

      My default greeting is my company name and my name – which is awkward because our name is long! I might just go to our initials.

      With internal calls (like if one of my employees calls out sick), I’ll usually say, “Hey, what’s up?” (We’re not very formal!) I’ve even been known to drop a “new phone who dis” on my coworkers (they expect those shenanigans from me).

      Basically, it’s context dependent. Confirm they’re talking to the right person (I’ve gotten quite a few misrouted calls since my extension used to be nearly the same as a vocational counselor’s – I learned how to do transfers VERY quickly), and be pleasant.

    26. That Girl From Quinn's House*

      I usually say, “Llama Department, MyName speaking” if they’ve called my office, and “Llama Barn” if I’m answering a communal phone that’s meant for reaching whoever is on rotation in that location at that moment.

    27. TeapotDetective*

      “Good afternoon, this FirstName at Teapot Fraud Department on a monitored and recorded line, how can I help you?”
      Blurb abt monitoring is company-mandated for legal reasons, everything else is just IDing myself/my company in case of wrong numbers, and generally being polite.

    28. Existentialista*

      “Teapot Handle-Painting, this is Existentialista”.

      But these days I very rarely pick up the phone when it rings, because it seems like the only people who phone me are cold-calling spammers. I let it go through to voice mail and reply only if I need to, which means the other person has to figure out how to answer…

    29. NothingIsLittle*

      OOOOO MY TIME HAS COME! I used to be super phone-phobic before I had a few receptionist-type jobs.
      My favorite has always been: “This is *company name* department of *blank* NothingIsLittle speaking. How can I help you?”
      But if it’s an interior call from someone I work closely with, it’s just, “Hi *caller’s name* what can I do for you?” or if it’s internal, but not someone I know well, “Department of *blank* this is NothingIsLittle,” works.

      As for getting over the awkward feeling, it’s a “give it time” type deal. You could always practice your answering phrase, which is what I did every time I changed jobs, so that you know you’re going to answer appropriately.

    30. Cat Meowmy Admin*

      This is literally my wheelhouse! As a front-line Admin, I’ve been doing this for decades. There have been variations depending on the organization, but this is pretty much how it goes:
      External calls:
      1) “Company Name, Admin speaking, how may I help you?”
      2) Internal calls: “Dept. Name, Admin
      Speaking”
      3) Years ago, I omitted the “good morning/afternoon”* from the greeting. It’s very easy to lose track of time when busy, and easy to mistakenly say “good morning” when its actually 1:30 in the afternoon.
      This also keeps the greeting SHORT & SWEET. Brief and politely helpful, you can’t go wrong.
      (*unless your company wants to include that)
      4) Other tips: (obvious, but not for everyone) Be sure to repeat back /confirm what the caller stated, get their name/phone #/email. Jot everything down. Clarify whether a spelling is “d” as in dog, “c” as in cat, “f” as in fish, “s” as in seal; these letters are easily misinterpreted on phone calls.
      5) Observe your coworkers and how they answer calls, then follow suit. It’s usually okay to modify with your own style and personality (professional and courteous of course).
      It’s a great question to ask, and glad you did! :)

    31. Mr. Shark*

      I’m just a “This is Mr. Shark” when I answer. Typically if someone is calling me from outside, they know who they are calling and where I work, so I don’t add that information. I don’t typically work with a lot of outside company people, but if I did they would be calling me specifically for a reason and would know who I am.

      I can see doing a “[department], this is Mr. Shark” or “[company], this is Mr. Shark, how can I help you” if you deal with a lot of people outside your area.

    32. Zombeyonce*

      My tried-and-true is “[Company Name], Zombeyonce speaking.” Short and to the point. Feels businesslike and gives all the info you need without feeling like an awkward drawn-out greeting that feels like a memorized speech.

    33. Laura H.*

      “Good morning/ afternoon/ evening, you’ve reached [business name], this is [name], how may I help you?”

    34. fhqwhgads*

      If can tell it’s an external caller “Company Name, This is Human Name”.
      If internal just “This is Human Name”.
      Substituting the actual names of course.

  9. Wendy*

    If you’re a POC, would you consider it a red flag if an organisation of around 100 people had less than five other POCs?

    1. dealing with dragons*

      How do they frame it? I was at a company that “valued diversity” and of the 10ish c levels and svp, 1 was not white, 1 was a white female, and the rest were white.

      Most of their promotions were around fostering this diversity and it’s what I use as a red flag.

          1. valentine*

            would you consider it a red flag
            Yes! It’s extremely painful being literally surrounded by a wall of whiteness.

      1. Dust Bunny*

        Yeah, same. Although I guess this also depends on the general demographics of the area. I’m in Houston, where it would be SUPER WEIRD. But I know there are other places where, unless they are commuting from far away, it would not be surprising. My great-aunt’s hometown is like 93% white. 0_O

        2. cmcinnyc*

          I’m in NYC where POC are the majority and it would legit make me seriously look around and wonder where is everybody? But where I grew up, it’s super white and having 5 POC would mean the company had an effective diversity program.

        3. Zombeyonce*

          Demographics is really important. I live in Portland, OR, which is maybe the whitest city in the US, unfortunately. 5% of employees being POC probably closely reflects actual city demographics here, but it varies wildly across the US. I wouldn’t consider it a red flag unless it’s out of sync w/the local population.

          That being said, I’d definitely pay attention to the distribution. If all managers and up are white men (with a possible single token POC or white woman), that’s a massive red flag.

    3. MusicWithRocksInIt*

      I’ve wondered that about my workplace before. I’m not a POC, but in my building of about 150 employees there are two POC, though a surprisingly good gender mix. I feel like part of it is that we are in the middle of nowhere… but that isn’t enough to explain away the ratio. This is actually the least toxic place I’ve ever worked (both other places were super white, but once you got to know my bosses that was not a surprise) but I still question if it isn’t more toxic than I notice because of the disparity.

    4. Anonned*

      I think it depends a bit on the demographics of the area. If you’re in an area that’s 50% white, then definitely. I’d be possibly concerned for a company that had a majority white workforce by any noticeable ratio in that circumstance. Conversely, if it’s a small town in Sweden where the population of the town is made up of almost entirely white Swedes, and the company had only 1 or 2 people who were not white Swedes, then no. I think the demographics of the company need to be proportional to demographics of the area.

      2. Bee's Knees*

        One of the counties that about 60% of our workforce comes from has about 3% of the population of the county that is non-white. Our org of about 160 (at our location) has about 20 people that are not white men. We live and work in an area of the country that isn’t super developed. It’s not that we don’t want to hire POC (or women, for that matter!) It’s just that they usually don’t apply, because not a lot of people move to this area.

      3. YetAnotherUsername*

        It depends not only on current demographics but also historical demographics and the intersection of socio-economic factors with race.

        Let’s say you have e.g. An engineering firm in an area with 10% POC, but only 5% of their engineers are POC. On the face of it it looks like outright racism. But if you look at historical factors or socio economic factors, you might find out that over the last 20-40 years only 2% of engineering graduates in this area have been POC. Suddenly the 5% looks very different.

        So basically, it depends.

        1. Engineer Girl*

          I strongly agree with this. You need to look at the available pool of candidates before you can discern if there are problems.
          For example, a company with 40% women engineers is going to be an outstanding place to work when you realize that only 10-20% of graduates are women.
          Underrepresented minorities will flock to a company where they will get equal opportunity.

          1. The New Wanderer*

            I (female) had an onsite interview last year at a very large tech company where the majority of my interviewers for a technical job, including two levels of management, were female. In 24 years of working, it was my first ever experience with a non-male majority set of interviewers, and one of the very few instances where the women involved were not exclusively HR/recruiting.

            I only have experience with really large US-based companies but it feels like things are gradually shifting in terms of workforce diversity, at least in the newer employee ranks (obvs not saying that’s happening for everyone all over, just my limited exposure). I’m not sure that’s as common for smaller companies that are built more on the individual personalities of the C-suite, or where hiring might be more insular (startups in some cases). In those cases and with no other factors like location-based demographics, if there’s such a small number of POC, I’d be wary. A few POC posters here have said in the past that they dread becoming The Minority Representative because there are so few – even with a serious and sincere investment in diversity, it could be slow going before you are the employee who is POC rather than the POC employee.

      4. zora*

        I’m not a POC, but I agree it’s a yellow flag depending on the geographic location. And, I would add what positions those 5 POC are in.

        Whatever you do, don’t come to our company where we have 3 POC in a company of 300+. It’s really frustrating and a major reason I am looking to leave.

      5. LunaLena*

        Yeah, this is what I was thinking as well. I’m a POC, and I’ve worked in areas that are overwhelmingly white (as in, many people weren’t sure how to approach me because they had literally never met an Asian in the workplace before) and I was the only POC in the office. I currently work in an area that is more diverse, though, and my workplace definitely reflects that.

    5. Nova*

      Not red, but yellow flag.

      The position of the few POC matters too. It depends to an extent on how cosmopolitan the area is, and whether the POC are american born or foreigners on temporary visas.
      I wouldn’t refuse an offer if that was the only thing wrong. But I’d try hard to determine if it’s a reasonably open company that just happens to have few POC (as much as these things just happen), or if it’s the kind of company that just happens to not hire POC because they never ‘fit the culture’.
      I’d look at how many women are in the C-suite. Maybe also the class makeup (as in : are all the C-suite WASP Ivy Leagues or did some people get there by climbing up the ladder?).
      I’d try to figure out how they take feedback, what the networking/after work culture is. Basically, to see if it’s a closed insiders’ club, or not.

      And then there’s the gut feeling on how they treat me.

    6. The Man, Becky Lynch*

      I’m not POC but I’m well aware of what diversity should look like. Yeah that would be a red flag to me personally. We’re a crew of much less and given the numbers of applicants, it would be sketchy AF if we were all white, tbh.

      It depends on your area of course too. I’m originally from small-town USA where it’s simply due to the fact that there are so few minorities around because it’s not a place people tend to move to, you are born there and you stay or you leave, new people aren’t flooding in for any reason because why would they, it’s a dirt-town. But yeah, in a diverse metro area, that’s a huge “WTF” red flag.

    7. stack it up*

      Might depend on the organization? I work in a field that is n o t o r i o u s l y white dominated, so it might raise an eyebrow but not be a red flag about the organization in particular – other factors would have to play into that.

    8. Bex*

      I would definitely consider it a yellow flag, unless it was in a place where the population was extremely white (like, 90%+)

    9. R*

      I think it depends on geographic location and industry? If the geographic mix is 50/50 then yeah, 5/100 doesn’t look great. Also depends on what positions they hold, as others have said. My company is technically diverse but you will see that all the POC are in ‘lower’ positions. (Also our head of HR said we are diverse because we have Singaporeans. In the Singapore office. *Internal scream*)

    10. Agent J*

      I’m a POC woman. It’s a yellow flag with other considerations that could make it red:
      – Do the POC actively participate in the culture or do they seem to be outside of it?
      – Are there any POC in positions of influence (not just the C-Suite or senior execs…but do people listen when they offer leadership/direction/advice, etc.)?
      – Do they have diversity initiatives? If so, who is driving them?

      Do you have any connections at this company or anyone who can introduce you so you can get a look into the day-to-day feel of the company?

    11. Policy Wonk*

      Where I work positions often require advanced degrees and veterans have preference. Given those qualifiers, we skew white male, though we do have employees who are female and POC. The last position I advertised, only one applicant was not a white male; that person accepted another agency’s offer over mine. It’s like what Annoned said earlier – does this reflect the demographics of the area? Or in my case of the job qualifications? If not, yes this is a reg flag.

    12. Anonymous Educator*

      I’ve definitely worked places where I was one of only two or three POCs, and it wasn’t the best, but there is a difference between just the normal racism you face in the world and the organization reflecting that vs. amplified and super toxic in-your-face racism, which maybe the organization has, too.

      I’d approach it with caution, but I wouldn’t rule it out, necessarily. Also depends on where you are in the country.

    13. Inefficeint Cat Herder*

      Agree with other poster about demographics. I live in one of the whitest places in the US (culture shock!) but my org is much more diverse than the local population. Still looks pretty darn white though. Also look at retention if you can. If the non-majority people who work there have been there for a long time, it may be a sign that they feel supported (of course, it may also be that the local job market just really sucks)

    14. Sunshine*

      POC here – It depends on the industry and the area where the organisation is. Are these inclusive thinking individuals or not? With only 100 people, there’s probably not enough people to recruit for diversity.

    15. LKW*

      Depends on where you are. If you’re in North Dakota, that might be really good. If you’re in Florida, that would be a huge red flag.

    16. She's One Crazy Diamond*

      I’m a PoC (but white passing) and currently work at a large organization with very few PoC. Most of the time it’s okay, but there are times where it does bother me, like for example we even have an equity committee but there’s only one other PoC besides me and tons of white women, and sometimes all I can think is “how are we supposed to implement racial equity when this group doesn’t even represent the types of people we’re trying to help?” We’ve definitely been trying a lot harder to recruit PoC when we hire though, which gives me some hope.

    18. Leela*

      Not POC but female and Queer and here’s what I’ll say:

      People think it’s a coincidence when their company lacks X demographic and when I’m one of the lacking demographics and I show up, I can tell that it’s not a coincidence. They don’t know how to attract or retain these candidates, or they’re outright not hiring them.

      Even when I get in, they don’t know how to handle having me there. Without a diverse workforce, they don’t know what it means for a woman to be faced with different situations and they’re definitely not considering the differences in my experience versus the experience of a man there. I imagine it’s much like this for POC but I couldn’t say for sure

      1. Fortitude Jones*

        It’s definitely like that. I’m a black woman who has always worked for very white companies, and most of them don’t feel the need to try to attract racially diverse talent nor do they do much of anything to include those of us who are there in anything. I care nothing about it, really. I go in, kick ass, collect my paycheck, and when they no longer pay me what I believe I’m worth, I roll out.

    19. medium of ballpoint*

      I’d actually be more curious about the attrition rate of POCs. Do they hire them frequently and then lose them or are they not hired at all? In my industry, a great red flag is whether multiple women and/or POC leave in a row because that point I can be pretty well guaranteed I’m on a sinking ship.

    20. Ms.Vader*

      Just wondering that if they have recognized their need for more diversity and are actively trying to achieve that, will it not be impossible to do so if people don’t take a chance that this isn’t a red flag? Maybe they’ve been actively trying to become more diverse but nobody will take the chance? How do you suss that out?

    21. tamarack and fireweed*

      It might slightly depend on where you are in the world and who counts as POC in that particular location. (Small-town Finland or say the police command in the Shetland Islands may be just too homogeneous, ethnically speaking, for example. Or in Poland, oppressed minorities may still all be “white”.) But for most places in North America and Central and Eastern Europe, yeah, that’s low. (Where I am, parts of the organization do have this issue, even if the overall institution does a little better.)

  10. peachie*

    I asked this late a few weeks ago, so apologies for re-asking! Does anyone have experience with transitioning from a standard-daytime-hours, in-office position to a truly flexible job (particularly re: which hours you work)? How did you do it / what was it like / any advice?

    1. Alice*

      Make sure you have articulated (or been told) your goals, and that you and your boss agree on them. Then you’ll be able to make sure that you are accomplishing what you need to, no matter which hours you are working.
      Also, make sure that colleagues know how to contact you and when they should expect replies. Sometimes you really have to emphasize “I’m working on a different or unpredictable schedule, but I still want you to feel comfortable asking me for help!”

      1. peachie*

        Ah, so when you did this, you were transitioning to/from basically the same role, just with a different schedule/logistics? I’ll admit that didn’t even occur to me as a possibility — I was more thinking in the medium-long term when I move on from this job, but now that I’m thinking of it, it might very well be workable with the type of work I’m in…

        1. Alice*

          Actually, no, I switched careers completely! From an inflexible one to a flexible profession and workplace. But I had to be more intentional than I realized at first about showing my co-workers that I was accessible and helpful and made valuable contributions.
          The other aspect of flexibility that I had trouble with was knowing when to stop. I was not taking two hours for a doctor’s appointment and working two hours at home; I was doing much more work than I could have accomplished in a traditional 9-5 workweek. The nature of my job now is that there is always more work I could be doing, so it’s important to prioritize and to check in with my boss occasionally to make sure my sense of priorities aligns with hers.

    2. SezU*

      I had a truly flexible work from home gig for a few years. Their only requirement was that I process the reports in three business days. So I set my own deadlines to ensure I got them done in plenty of time. I am the kind of person that would rather do it all sooner, just in case something goes wrong at the last minute so I have to take care of it. Set personal deadlines. Stick to them. If you are work at home, have a set place to work. Set certain times too, if that would help. It’s easy to overdo it on working (spending 16 hours a day, rather than spreading them out over the week).

      2. peachie*

        That sounds like a great setup! Did you find this job through a regular job posting or a contact in your network (or was it a freelance situation)? I’ve been looking to see what’s out there, but I’m a little lost.

    3. Live & Learn*

      Sort of. I used to work 9-5 M-F in office. Now I usually work 8-4 (by my own choosing) with 2 days at home. I do set my own schedule mostly though so I make doctor appts whenever I want, leave early or come in late if I want/need to. As long as my manager knows when i’m available, the works gets done on time and with high quality and I’m available for meetings/discussion without major issue I have a lot of flexibility. I sometimes leave early for bad weather, traffic or childcare reasons and hop back on at night to finish things.
      I got to this point by showing I was very reliable and willing to work with other people’s schedules to get things done. My boss knows my work will be good and he can find me when he needs me. Having a boss who is open to flexibility and remote work was huge, previously my old managers were not so accommodating. I love the flexibility but it does mean you have to work extra hard to show people you are reliable and available at times convenient to them and not just to you.

      1. peachie*

        [.]

        Thankfully/unfortunately, this is very similar to the position I’m in now — I’m lucky enough to work under a boss that is not strict about what time I get into/leave work because he knows I’m a hard worker (though I only WFH if I need to, not regularly). That’s been great because I am bad at keeping the same hours and, you know, appreciate being trusted to do my job. What my goal is, though, is, I guess, more like a contractor? Would that I knew what I was doing.

        (But, truly, yay for bosses/workplaces like yours and mine — I’ve been in places that are very nickel-and-dime-y about things like appointments, nitpicky about “You must show up at 8am on the dot [for no legitimate business reason]!,” etc., and it doesn’t sit well with me.)

    4. NomdePlumage*

      I would advise going to bed early for the first few weeks, but this really just depends on your body. I used to have a schedule that brought me in early, then I transitioned to a flexible schedule. I had to adjust my time management skills and create a schedule that would keep me on track, and the schedule change caused me to wake up several times during the night because my brain kept asking me ”shouldn’t you be at work???”. I had some very stressful dreams about missing work.

    5. Not So NewReader*

      This may or may not help. My job is part time and when I got it I was granted huge say in how I set up my own work.

      I do need set hours somewhere in the mix, so I set up core hours where I will definitely be there. Hours outside the core hours tend to float around.

      My core hours were strategic. They are times where it is easiest to reach people and others may be trying to reach me. The other strategic thing is that I can get my immediate work done in my core hours. So let’s say Monday is a busy day for me personally and I can only do the core hours. I can get everything caught up in that time period. Then I can get my hours caught up (the actual number of hours I owe the place) on the other days.

      I do enjoy having this set up this way. Others have the info that I will definitely be there during the core hours and that is helpful to them. It reduces the amount of complaints I get about availability/accessibility to almost zero as there is a part of my schedule that is predictable for them.

    6. NothingIsLittle*

      Not me, but a very close friend of mine did. She actually worked pretty much the same hours when she was working at home that she had when she was working in an office. The big trick for her (and science says for anyone) is to have as much of the same starting routine every day as you can. So, for her, that was waking up at 8, changing into clean pajamas (exaggerating, usually it was real clothes just super casual), and eating breakfast before starting with her emails at 8:30 every day. If she didn’t have enough work to fill the whole day, she took longer breaks and lunches so she could finish at 4:30 every day. It helped her to compartmentalize work and home when work was at home.

      This is, of course, second hand from what I remember her saying a few months after she made the switch, so it may not be perfectly accurate, but it should give you the gist of how one person handled it.

  11. Lance*

    How do you reconcile a feeling of ‘literally anyone could’ve done this’?

    For context, I’m fairly new to work, put into a department of people will skillsets far, far beyond my own. Not necessarily the line of work I want, but I digress. For one task, I was given a project that took several weeks, a bit of back-and-forth with the person leading the tool the project was for. I did a good enough job, I suppose; as much as one can do without any of the relevant skillset coming in. But ultimately, it was mostly data entry; copying values, using the in-built tool to make sure they (theoretically) worked, running a few minor tests.

    Literally anyone anywhere in my department could’ve done it, probably faster and better. Yet I got a public shout-out anyway. Are there any good ways to deal with a feeling of ‘anyone here could’ve done this and better, I don’t really deserve this’?

    A bit of an odd question, perhaps, but I figured I’d toss it out there anyway.

    1. peachie*

      You know the quote “Modern art = I could do that + Yeah, but you didn’t.”? That. It’s not always about the level of skill needed — often, acknowledgement/gratitude is about actually doing it. (Also, don’t discount your skill! It’s normal to feel like you’re light years behind when you’re relatively new to a role, but for all you know, your coworkers are impressed by how quickly you’re picking it up.

      1. NomdePlumage*

        +1. It’s great to acknowledge the real MVP, who is someone who does what needs to be done when no one else wants/can be bothered to do it.

        Just because it doesn’t require a lot of skill doesn’t mean it’s not an important task.

        1. valentine*

          I mostly hate praise and don’t get it, especially effusive praise, but look at it the other way round: It’s important for them to acknowledge you. Also: Mutually beneficial come review time.

    2. Aezy*

      By taking on tasks which don’t necessarily require a high-level skillset, you’re likely freeing up someone else’s time to focus on tasks which fewer people can do (and they’re probably pretty grateful for you taking it off their plate and doing it competently).

      1. Sabzy*

        Yes, and never underestimate competence! Even “non-skilled” things can be done incompetently and that’s frustrating for everyone.

        1. Leela*

          This! People do things that aren’t that hard but do them well and feel like they’re not contributing because it’s so easy, but if you’ve worked at a level with oversight it’s amazing how many people need to be instructed in the most basic of things like “get this very easy thing done on time” or “you shouldn’t need three e-mail reminders from me to show up at an event when you got the calendar invite” but good lord.

        2. Manon*

          +1!

          In the course of a year-long internship I saw two people come and go in the role immediately above mine. I ended up taking on some of their work both during their tenures and in the interim and, according to our shared supervisor, doing a much better job. Different people struggle with different things.

      2. LKW*

        This, your effort meant someone else could focus on other stuff. Also, consider that your hourly wage is lower than someone with a lot of experience, therefore by taking the task, it cost less for you to do the work.

        And you got a shout out, so clearly it’s important enough.

      3. Dust Bunny*

        This.

        We have somebody in our department who is . . . not a high-concept person. But Coworker works like a mule and will do anything asked to the letter. We went through a round of layoffs and Supervisor fought to keep Coworker despite the low skillset because we are a department with a lot of necessary but repetitive and tedious work to do, and we need somebody honest and reliable to do it, and Coworker is.

        It’s not always about higher or more skills.

      4. New Normal*

        This, this, THIS! I manage volunteers at my non-profit and “doing things anyone could do but not as fast” describes most of what they do … and they’re amazing. I don’t care if it takes them 15 minutes to file things that I could have done in 5 – because I DIDN’T have to spend that 5 minutes filing. Or entering in addresses. Or unpacking boxes. Or the thousand other “anyone can do this” tasks that would otherwise devour my day and keep me from the things everyone CAN’T do.

        More than that, you say anyone could do it. Trust me, that’s not true. Someone who can accurately transfer the right data to the right place, test tools and actually tell if they work, and generally get those basic-but-critical tasks done right is worth all the praise and shout-outs.

    3. Sunflower*

      The more I work, the more I realize it’s not usually the task at hand that is difficult- it’s everything else. Maybe it’s a difficult teammate/project manager, an outdated system, red tape you need to sort through. I have some friends who don’t work in corporate world and for some reason(?) think I come to work everyday and just do my work and these roadblocks don’t come up. Also- maybe you did a job that no one else wanted to do! And if you did it willingly and without complaint, that probably helped too

    4. Rey*

      This is a social norm. Just as we all learned in school, when someone does something nice for us, we say thank you, they say you’re welcome, and the social ritual is completed. And for what it’s worth, I would rather work at a place with a culture of gratitude, versus someplace where higher-ups never recognize the people who work for them.

    5. epi*

      A lot of low skilled jobs are actually nothing of the sort, and quite difficult regardless of the skill involved. They can also be incredibly important. Data entry is definitely one of those.

      People who are not dependable can cost an analyst hours in data checking and cleaning. In the worst case scenarios, the data can end up worthless and have to be reentered, recollected, or totally discarded. In the hellmouth scenario, plausible looking bad data can be missed until a lot of work has been sunk into a useless dataset and embarrasses someone. In social science and statistics, people even devote time to research to help detect data that people just made up rather than collect or enter it correctly. In some cases– and it sounds like what you were doing– it is hard to even enter the data unless the person doing so pretty much understands what the data is about. Even when it doesn’t take specialized knowledge, data entry always involves having a very high level of certain professional skills that are challenging for many people: consistency, attention to detail, ability to read and follow directions, honesty. For whoever worked with the data after you, you took something off their plate that is probably their least favorite and most time consuming thing to do. If you were pre-checking some of the data too and actually doing a good job, you absolutely deserved the shout out.

      In the moment, if I feel uncomfortable with praise of something I did, I just don’t say anything about my work that I wouldn’t say about someone else’s time and effort. I could be implying something I don’t mean about others’ jobs, my disparaging my own.

      1. Coder von Frankenstein*

        Preach it! Good data entry workers – people who take the time to really get it right – are rare and precious. Bad data is a corrosive fog that seeps into everything and eats away at whole organizations.

    6. Cinna214*

      Data entry, etc. feels very basic but those tasks require a level of detail and focus that not everyone can do well. You deserve the compliment and keep learning! :)

      1. zora*

        Seriously, this.
        We have a person in our company whose main job is copying info from one thing into another, she has been doing this job for many many years, and every single month there are so many errors that everyone has to have multiple email back-and-forths with her to get everything fixed. It is basically as simple as data entry, and yet I can’t think of a single month that any one page of her work has been correct.

        I think this is part of imposter syndrome, I have the same thoughts about my job sometimes, but I’ve been in the workforce long enough to encounter people who don’t do the “simplest” tasks well. (And I’m putting Simplest in quotes, because I think that’s part of it, they aren’t that simple!)
        As an Admin, I keep our office and kitchen tidy, and it seems so simple, but I’ve been in offices where everything is a disorganized mess, even though that is supposedly someone’s job, and it reflects badly on the company for so many reasons! Plus, isn’t pleasant for the people who work there.

        You will probably get more complicated work as you show that you can do these smaller projects well, but really, don’t underestimate how bad some people can be at the “simplest” jobs!!!!

      2. Seeking Second Childhood*

        “Just” data entry? There’s no such thing. I’m managing a database (albeit an inherited poorly designed spreadsheet masquerading as a database) and you can’t imagine how hard it is to clean up the data after years of people being careless about entering data. Someone who’s not diligent can do real damage.
        You deserve your thanks.

    7. KayEss*

      I have kind of the opposite problem… I was recently hired into a llama bathing department as their first trained wool stylist. Some of the bathers and wranglers can do basic styling, but the company was growing and wanted to really up their fashionable llama game. There’s a long-standing set of quarterly peer-nominated departmental awards handed out, and one of them has always been for “contributions to llama beauty”… and my peers gave it to me, which feels kind of silly. My baseline for styling is what would be above-and-beyond for the bathers/wranglers, so it seems weird to be acknowledged as if I made some heroic effort. My entire job is contributing to llama beauty! Those are the skills you hired me to use daily! It’s not a big deal!

      But as peachie says above, it’s not actually about the level of skill/effort required, it’s about that something got done successfully. I personally (since I have a LOT of brainweasels who gnaw on the idea that I may be being condescended to) really just try to focus on graciously taking the acknowledgment at face value—I did something, and did it well, and people appreciate that. It doesn’t have to be any more complicated than that, and you’ll just work yourself into fits trying to suss out secret meanings and motivations about whether the acknowledgement is “real” or “deserved.”

    8. CMart*

      I’m 2 years into my first professional role and I’m slowly learning that honestly? not anyone can do things, even the things I think are no-brainer, low level tasks.

      A director of mine would have me come to her desk to do really basic PowerPoint things because, despite her many skills and proficiency with all kinds of other systems and programs, she never remembered how to insert a text box.

      I’ve also met several peers who, also 2 years in, are still flummoxed by foundational concepts (how do I connect to X? What do you mean by “analyze the balance”?), which has me thinking that perhaps I’m more useful than I think I am.

      Plus, your colleagues may have been able to do it better/faster etc… but they didn’t want to or didn’t have time to. You did! It added value to their work and they appreciated that you did a good job with it. That’s worth something.

      1. A. Lovelace*

        Agreed. I thought that my ability to analyze data was pretty basic and repeatable until I went away for a few weeks and someone from outside my group took the ‘initiative’ to do the work himself. Disaster! It turns out that I was more of an expert than I knew, even when I had very little experience.

        I have also done some work in spreadsheets which was very basic, which I did for some more senior coworkers, and they loved how quickly I could do things (because I know how to do keyboard shortcuts, and I also learned VBA which is even more powerful). A 5-year-old could have done what was asked, but I could do it so much faster than the experienced coworkers, and they were really appreciative because they had a big deadline.

      2. The Man, Becky Lynch*

        I’m glad you learned this so quickly!

        It killed me for years how “easy” my job was (to me). Then I had to try training much “smarter” people (read more educated) to do things like convert to a PDF and attach to an email and inputting data into assorted forms and programs. I reduced smart men to tears because it was an overload for them.

        We’re all good at what we’re good at. I can’t draw a stick figure even. So when people shrug off a how I’m all “woah nice sketch!” It’s nothing everyone can doodle.” No. No everyone cannot. Everyone also cannot do marketing or sales or customer service either it turns out.

    9. sunshyne84*

      That’s how I feel in my role. My coworkers frequently thank me for the basic things I do and it always feels weird, but I think back to the other jobs I had that I didn’t feel appreciated and then I remember to just be thankful. No matter how small everyone’s part matters.

    10. Nicki Name*

      It doesn’t matter what someone else could have done. You’re the one who actually DID the work. You deserve the shout-out.

    11. L.S. Cooper*

      No advice, but definitely in the same boat. My boss will offer profuse thanks and has, a few times, bought me lunch after completing some project within the same general realm as what you described. I do appreciate being appreciated, but it always feels a bit odd to me that I’m thanked so much– sometimes even by my grandboss. Like, I did something during normal working hours that my boss told me to do. It doesn’t feel like going above and beyond in praiseworthy ways; it feels like doing the job that they hired me and pay me to do. But hey, I won’t turn down a free sandwich now and again.

    12. Aurion*

      Not every task is glamourous or novel or mind-bendingly complex, but if it’s on the list, it needs to get done, and done well. Whether or not anyone else could’ve done it, you were the one who did it; they’re thanking you for a job well done.

      (And you’d be surprised; sometimes people who excel at the mind-bendingly complex stuff don’t do well with rote data entry.)

    13. alphabet soup*

      I’ve had almost literally the same thought before– “anyone could do this.” But then I was in charge of training/mentoring a new hire. She was super smart and motivated, but after six months of working together, I started to learn that those “anyone could do this” tasks were actually more complicated and required more explanation than I anticipated. I started to realize that the reason those tasks seemed straight-forward and easy to me is because I was underestimating my own amount of experience and my skill set (including “soft” skills such ability to take initiative, problem-solving, critical thinking, etc).

      Is it possible a little bit of that is going on with you?

    14. Not So NewReader*

      Just because the task seemed simple to you does not mean it is simple for others.

      My late husband was a geek’s geek. He was the guy everyone went to with the head-banging problems. You’d tell him the problem and wait for the chuckle. The chuckle meant he would tell you what to do once he got done laughing. He was not laughing at you, he was laughing at the problem. Usually there was a story about poor design and a child of two would have known not to design it that way.
      Then taking very basic materials such as paper clips he would fix the problem. It was his cohorts turn to laugh, his fix was better than what the manufacturers had done. Yet the fix was so darn simple.

      See the common thread here? He thought everything was simple. He thought the problem was simple, he used simple materials to do simple (yet genius) repairs. He always said, “Anyone can do my job.” Well where are all these random people then?

      First off, it’s NOT true that anyone could have done that task. (There are various reasons as to why it’s not true, but punchline is it’s just not true.)
      Second, of the people who could do the task, some just plain did not wanna do it. There’s no particular reason, it’s just that they did not want the task.
      Third, if you reeeally watch people work, really watch them you begin to see the reasons why they might not want to do something or actually can’t do something. My elderly friend’s grandchild bought my friend groceries. Grandchild bought the big economy packs for everything my friend wanted. Nice, right? I watched the way my friend’s hands work and I realize she absolutely cannot remove the lids of some of these products. Other products are too heavy for her to lift to spill out a portion for use. Her hands don’t work the way a younger person’s hands work. Unless I had sat down to watch her do this I never would have known. She is a very active and very hip senior citizen. I had no clue that she was starting to wrestle with things that required fine dexterity.

      Just my opinion but in my years working I have always found it wise to take on the projects that were being ignored but yet needed to be done. And it’s because of those shout outs, that recognition. Sticking with this habit of taking on the tedious or less desirable projects I found I could zoom out ahead of my peers and get special pet projects, etc. I turned myself into a bit of go-to person because of my willingness to work through “the hard stuff”. (We don’t get to pick out how others define something as “hard” or “difficult”. Most of what I was asked to do was fairly easy…. to me. It was fairly easy to me.)

      My advice is be grateful this is easy for you. Leverage your contribution here by asking for another special task. Build your rep in your department and in your company by handling these things that no one else wants. You will be amazed at how much you learn along the way. Suddenly you will realize that you are a go-to person with a very secure job.

    15. Gumby*

      I work with people who have advanced degrees in STEM fields (I only have a BS). Any one of them could do my job competently. But: they do not *want* to do the stuff I do. Having someone deal with the tasks they have neither the time nor the interest in doing is actually really helpful to them. So I would take it in that sense – not that you did this horribly difficult thing but you did this horribly inconvenient-to-them thing and they are grateful you took it off their plate. Also, in my case, our customers appreciate it a LOT that the tasks I do now get higher priority here.

      Think of it like this: what chore do you hate? Wouldn’t you be grateful if someone came and just… washed your dishes for you? Cleaned your bathtub? It isn’t that you couldn’t do them, but it is wonderful when someone else does.

    16. Alex*

      Literally anyone could do my job. Doesn’t mean that people shouldn’t say thank you that *I* did it.

    17. Cat Meowmy Admin*

      Be thankful for the acknowledgement, you obviously deserve it. It would mean the world to me to get similar acknowledgments. Because as an Admin, I do many of these tasks too. *Not everyone can though*, and they’re certainly not low-level tasks. As part of my job, I don’t expect thanks, but boy it sure would be nice every so often. Because when I have been acknowledged, I deserve it, and it’s a real morale booster. It can often make a lower paying job seem so much better. So take your well earned shout out and revel in it! On behalf of those of us who would give anything for it.
      (And keep it in your pocket to remind you of that praise when and if you may get the opposite kind of feedback down the road.) Congrats on a task well done!

    18. Lilysparrow*

      If anybody could have done it, they would have done it already & wouldn’t have bothered hiring you at all, because they could do everything without you.

      Businesses don’t pay people to duplicate effort and do things nobody needs done.

      It needed to get done. You got it done. Most of life is about finishing stuff, not accumulating “style points.”

    19. alayne*

      I am a pretty decent computer scientist . . . and I would be horrible at the work you did. Not everyone can do that – I don’t have the patient and attention to detail to accurately and quickly do that type of work. I would be eternally grateful to anyone who did that for me, and deeply thankful that I didn’t have to do it myself.

  12. Free Meerkats*

    I’m headed out of the office to give the new director a presentation on who our workgroup is and why we’re here. The answers, 50 years + experience in three people and we’re federally mandated.
    Wish me luck, though he seems more uninformed than evil.

    3. Not So NewReader*

      Sometimes the simplest explanations are the hardest to get across. Good luck.

    4. Free Meerkats*

      Went well. hour presentation, questions and answers for another 45 minutes.

      I’ve lessened his ignorance and he was next headed to City Hall with personnel requisitions for next year, including another body for us.

  13. Kramerica Industries*

    Like something straight out of the Michael Scott playbook, my office wants to do a “Diversity potluck” where they want everyone to bring food from their culture. As a POC, I imagine this is gonna get interesting when I bring in a bag of ketchup chips to represent how I’m a third generation Canadian…

    1. ZSD*

      My old office did this and everyone had a lot of fun. A Midwesterner brought a Jell-O salad. I think your ketchup chips will go over well!

    2. ZSD*

      (But I hope participation is optional! If you’re not interested, you shouldn’t have to bring something.)

    3. MechanicalPencil*

      As a white person, it would be just as interesting when I brought in tamales or something along those lines. Barbacoa? Would have to think about it. But what a terrible idea anyway.

      1. Jenny Jenny*

        +1 my dish if choice, a childhood dish.. Enchiladas. We made them with leftover turkey after Thanksgiving. I’ve perfected the entree so much I call it ‘Jen’chiladas. I have no Hispanic or Mexican heritage, but I grew up in Phoenix and most of my friends were Latino/a. I’m 3nd generation French, German, and Irish but I don’t make any of those dishes.

        1. Adric*

          Wow! My family does the same thing! Turkey enchiladas from Thanksgiving leftovers. And I’m pretty sure we’ve got even less claim than you. I grew up in Kansas and my parents are from Iowa and Washington (state).

        2. Alexis Rose*

          So with this comment it made me think that companies could just simply do a “bring in a favourite family recipe” or something? If you have diversity naturally, you will get a range of things. Otherwise it seems weirdly forced to me? Maybe I’m just grumpy today though and being a bit of a sourpuss about it.

    4. cmcinnyc*

      My dept did this, which was hilarious, because as someone pointed out it was literally no different than other potlucks we’ve done. People bring “the food of my people” because that’s what they know how to cook and we all eat it. As long as there’s no show and tell aspect to it it’s not terrible. Someone will love you for those ketchup fries.

          1. Clisby*

            Hah! I was wondering how many people would be craving more of your gefilte fish (yes, I have eaten it. Not yours, just in general.)

        2. Scarlet Magnolias*

          I could bring in lutefisk (don’t ask) as I’m Norwegian. No one will ever ask me again.

          3. Rainy*

            Lutfisk is the thing we put on our holiday tables to remember the tribulations of our ancestors. Pour out a little akvavit in memory of great-granny, who actually ate the stuff.

          5. LunaLena*

            Can you get away with surstromming? That would definitely clear out the room. Now that I’ve gotten lutefisk off of my bucket list, I’m conspiring to obtain some surstromming so I can compare.

        3. CatMom*

          Oh but homemade it’s so good! I’ve surprised a lot of people with my gefilte fish a la Veracruzana.

          1. Seeking Second Childhood*

            Ooo… recipe? Complicated details deleted…simple version is that I grew up eating traditional Jewish food and loving it, but never learned to cook it myself.

        4. NomdePlumage*

          I’m of Scottish descent but grew up in the south of the USA. The only thing I can think of is haggis, which I’ve never tried. My ”culture” is basically nachos. I would be so confused by what my contribution should be. Should we bring food that represents our culture if we’ve never eaten it? Would it be appropriation if a pale white dumpling brings tex mex to represent myself (hypothetically)? This is an interesting topic!

          1. Lucy*

            TABLET.

            If you don’t know what tablet is, imagine the sweetest thing you’ve ever eaten in your life; distill the sweetness; add sugar, syrup, butter and condensed milk; boil hard; cool briskly for large crystals. Like fudge but MUCH sweeter and grainier.

            Or Irn Bru. That’s even sweeter, but also contains caffeine and artificial colours.

        5. Nana*

          We have an ‘end of summer’ potluck where I live. I brought a jar of gefilte fish, and some matzoh crackers, because I was invited the morning of the potluck (I’d been away). A few people LOVED it, said they didn’t know where to get it (duh, the supermarket) and now I’m the annual Bringer of the Jarred Gefilte Fish.

      2. moql*

        At my very diverse elementary school my mother would send me in with bagels for multicultural day. I was always so embarrassed! All the other kids had interesting good food but my mom was like “You’re a New York jew, this is your cultural heritage!”

        2. Seeking Second Childhood*

          When I was in college 5 hours north of NYC and a friend learned I was going there for the weekend, she BEGGED me to bring back knishes from a truck for her. :D I did.

      4. MsM*

        I once wrote a “recipe” for Chinese takeout for a school-produced cookbook of family dishes.

    6. MusicWithRocksInIt*

      I would bring… Tex Mex I think? All the bread I can find? Rent a food truck, because food of my culture is overfeed everyone by 20x?

        2. MusicWithRocksInIt*

          If you are married to my four month old we are going to have WORDS. But you might be married to a cousin, I have LOTS. Is your spouse an excellent salesmen? If so then you are.

    7. londonedit*

      I’d bring scones, jam and clotted cream, and force everyone to put the jam on first (clotted cream should NOT be spread like butter! It should adorn the top of the jam-spread scone in a glorious dollop of loveliness. AKA people who come from Devon are wrong).

      1. London Calling*

        You are going to hell (north Devon bred here) and when you do ALL the scones will have cream on first for eternity

          1. londonedit*

            Pretty much. Tip for non-British people: never start this discussion in a pub. It won’t end well.

            1. MsM*

              I once started it on Facebook, forgetting I had UK friends, and hoo boy. Won’t be making that mistake again.

        3. Bagpuss*

          Of course the cream goes on first. Only a heathen (or a person from Cornwall ) would say otherwise.
          You are correct that the cream shouldn’t be spread like butter, though. It needs to be spread much, much thicker than that!

          1. London Calling*

            Dolloped on, not spread, so it ooooooooozes out when you squash both sides of the scone together

            *Only a heathen (or a person from Cornwall )*

            Anywhere east of the Tamar would say there’s no difference (joking, londonedit, honest).

            1. londonedit*

              We just do it the Cornish way because we couldn’t possibly do anything the same way as Devon :D

          2. Pippa*

            This is the entirely correct view and anyone who dissents has been sadly misguided, bless them

      2. Sprechen Sie Talk?*

        I just bought some Rhodda’s this afternoon and I HAVE JAM – but no scones. If I try both ways on some toast this weekend, does the toast kinda kill the vibe?

        (to note I have done it on scones, but jam then cream cause its prettier)

        1. londonedit*

          Scones are so easy to make! Google Delia Smith’s recipe and you’ll have lovely fluffy scones in no time.

          1. Pippa*

            Yes, they’re the best return on effort I get in the kitchen! Using Mary Berry’s recipe, I can go from zero to fresh scones in about 20 minutes.

            1. Lucy*

              I use the Delia recipe but yes. From hungry to blood in under half an hour including preheating the oven.

              (personally I get round the Cornwall/Devon issue by doing butter-jam-cream)

              (why yes I am quite fat)

        2. So anonymous I'm not even here*

          This will probably be classed as heresy but my Dad calls it a brummie cream tea – uses muffins/cupcakes if he doesn’t have time to make scones.

      3. So anonymous I'm not even here*

        Yum – cream on top as it should be – Brummie transplanted to Cornwall here.

      4. Warm Weighty Wrists*

        I was once at a hen weekend tea that devolved into a raging debate on this topic. The other non-Brits and I just sat there munching and glancing back and forth like we were watching a tennis match. I’m sure you’ll be shocked to find that no minds were changed.

    8. ILovePotlucks*

      I think that’s part of the fun of the “diversity” potluck because it can help challenge some assumptions that people have about others. Bring those ketchup chips! (I would be hesitant but curious to try such a thing). But also there is no real need to call it a diversity potluck because most people are going to just bring things they are comfortable making/eating anyway so that is going to be inherently indicative of their culture.

      1. Federal Middle Manager*

        I don’t think that’s necessarily true…I think lots off people “tone down” their potluck submissions to normalize to a crowd, whereas if it were specifically a diversity potluck, I’d be more likely to bring something slightly odd to others but normal to me.

    10. Jaid*

      I’ve seen the “All Dressed” chips on the East Coast, USA. I haven’t tried poutine, though.

    11. jDC*

      Oh I’d actually like this. I suppose I can see how some people could find it offensive, but people find most everything offensive these days right. I’d love to try dishes from all over in one sitting. We have a street fair here at the end of August that does this and I always look forward to it.

      2. Indy*

        People are definitely much better at recognising and calling out offensive crap these days. Thanks for acknowledging that!

    12. ThatGirl*

      Like, I’m white and was raised Mennonite – in an urban, diverse church. I am way better at making Puerto Rican arroz con habichuela than I am at making borscht (which I hate) or zwieback. I do make a pretty solid shoofly pie, though.

      1. Seeking Second Childhood*

        ZOMG I haven’t had shoofly pie since I left NYC… there was an Amish farm stand at one of the farmers markets. This was decades ago. If I remember right they carpooled (truckpooled?) with a non-Amish neighbor.

        1. ThatGirl*

          It’s honestly not hard to make at home! Though I do recommend a baking sheet to catch drips. And they probably got a ride with a Mennonite or English neighbor. :)

    13. Nicki Name*

      I never heard of ketchup chips before and now I want to try them. See, it’s working!

    14. Mbarr*

      Another Canadian here. You should bring Kraft Dinner. :D

      As an indigenous person, I’d want to bring in something controversial, like seal meat. (Not that I’ve ever eaten it, but I would, given the chance… But I live in SW Ontario and grew up in urban communities.)

      1. AnotherAlison*

        From the US, but the food of my people is basically Totinos. (A delicious $1 frozen pizza)

        1. min*

          Ohmigod, after over a decade in the UK, I cannot begin to express how much I miss Totinos.

      2. Jemima Bond*

        As a Brit I have never had Kraft Dinner but I do know that you should get really expensive ketchups to eat on it. All the fanciest…Dijon ketchups!

        1. Anon and on and on*

          :-D

          With all the kranch and mayomust and whatever else they’re making, now, it probably won’t be too long until there *is* Dijon ketchup.

    15. Librarian of SHIELD*

      We did one of these when I was in school. My ancestors arrived in North America prior to the revolutionary war, so while I’m technically of British descent, none of my family knows anything about English cuisine or how to cook any of it. But all four of my grandparents are from the American South, even though that’s not where my family currently lives. I brought biscuits and jam to the potluck, because that’s what my grandmother taught me to make as a child. And you know what? It was one of the most popular items. People love bread.

    16. A tester, not a developer*

      My son’s school does that, and we usually bring Nanaimo bars. :)
      They also had a ‘wear your heritage’ event. We have a fur traders sash that’s been passed down through the family, so my son wore that with jeans and a t-shirt. It led to some interesting discussions about when you stop being a Something-Canadian and turn into ‘just’ Canadian.

    18. Parenthetically*

      Are they calling it a “diversity potluck”?!? I am screeching. How delightfully Michael Scott.

      The concept I have no issue with — bring a food that reminds you of childhood or the culture you grew up in! Cool! I’ll bring Iowa-style goulash that has nothing to do with goulash, or my Scots-Irish-heritage grandmother’s tamale pie that has nothing to do with tamales! — but the name has me in PIECES laughing.

      1. Kramerica Industries*

        It is 100% a diversity potluck to celebrate diversity. I’ll admit that I watch too much The Office and am imagining all the outlandish ways that this could go wrong.

        I think it’s (in theory) a lovely idea! But my gripe is with people who have already point-blank asked me if I’m bringing something like dumplings or spring rolls.

      2. Seeking Second Childhood*

        And then there’s the “mangos” made by my husband’s grandmother. No idea how they got “mangos” out of stuffed green peppers but there you go.
        For the record, her cooking was the reason my fatherinlaw trained as a professional chef.

        1. Parenthetically*

          My parents had this SAME EXCHANGE 40 years ago! A neighbor after they moved to a tiny southern Indiana town offered them a bag of mangoes from his garden and they were hella confused when he gave them a bag of green peppers.

        2. fhqwhgads*

          Do you ever listen to the A Way With Words podcast? They did an episode on this. I can’t remember when but I know I’ve listened to it possibly a year ago.

    19. Seeking Second Childhood*

      This was awesome in sixth grade… I had my first spanikopita, delighted people with English trifle, and we learned the difference between powdered & fresh ginger from our teacher (Hawaii-born , Japanese ancestry). I’m wondering what I’d do as an adult now, since we’ve found a lot more interesting bits about my ancestry than that 1/4 English… And honestly, my “personal culture” is that I spent a lot of time in California with Asian friends who taught me THEIR cooking tricks and in college with an Indian friend who taught me hers… and I use all of the above more than I do European.

      1. Seeking Second Childhood*

        Annnnnd now I’ve eaten my afternoon snack early and I’m still hungry.
        Better go offline fast.

    21. Quiltrrrr*

      We had something like this last year, and I really don’t have an ethnic culture tradition. However, I’m from Rochester, NY, and I brought in white hots, onions, mustard, and garbage plate sauce and made mini garbage plates for the office. Actually, the whole thing was kind of fun, and I wasn’t the only one who brought in something from where I’m from, rather than an ethnicity.

      1. k8pages*

        Now I’m homesick!!! My kingdom for a Zweigle’s red hot and a Tom Wahl’s root beer!

    22. MatKnifeNinja*

      I hate this. As Finn/Metis all I can think of is Nisu bread and Tourtierre (pork pie). My family has been running around North America since the 1600s on my mom’s side and 1810 on my dad’s.

      Ketchup chips are the bomb! One ti.e I got fed up and brought Better Made potato chips and Faygo pop. No everyone has this rich, exotic cultural heritage to share.

        1. MatKnifeNinja*

          EAST SIDE!

          Faygo Frosh or Rock and Rye (don’t care for Red Pop) and Better Made BBQ potato chips.

          If you really want to kick it early 1970s birthday party style, swap out Faygo for a case of Town Club pop.

          I had uncles who worked at Faygo, Better Made and Town Club in the 1970s. The swag was delicious!

          1. Adele*

            Kroger has recently been stocking Town Club in glass bottles again. The little kid in me reaches for it but the adult knows I won’t like it and puts it back. Still love Rock n Rye, though.

    23. Its Business Time*

      …this wouldn’t happen to be next Wednesday, would it? I realize this is probably a coincidence, but my company is also doing this next week, along with some other highly problematic activities.

      1. Kramerica Industries*

        As much as I wish we were writing from the same company, mine is not on Wednesday. Good luck though…

  14. FinallyFriday*

    So every now and then I will be asked to stay late to approve something. Today I am being asked to stay about 2 hours later than I am scheduled to work. I am technically on call at this time, but as on call time was not part of my original job duties my boss and I agreed that when I am asked to stay in the facility late I would receive comp time. This is the first time I’ve been asked to stay, so I’d like to get some opinions here. Should I ask to receive the comp time for the couple of hours I’m staying? The entire reason I’m staying is to give a yes or no on something before it leaves the building, am I required to do anything else while I’m in the office or am I good to treat the time as free time and read or catch up on other things for my personal life?

    1. irene adler*

      My take: if you are being compensated for the time, then yes, you should do some work for the company. But that would be up to the boss.

      You didn’t bring this up, but if this is work beyond your 40 hours, at what rate are you accumulating comp time?
      My understanding: if this 2 hours is beyond your 40, then you should be awarded 3 hours of comp time. Kinda like how overtime is 1.5 times your rate of pay.
      Just don’t want you to get shorted.

      1. FinallyFriday*

        The agreement was that I would receive 4 hours if I had to come back in. However I’m going to feel guilty taking 4 hours for something good that I actually only need about 5 minutes for. At the same time I can’t go home and start doing my own thing for an additional couple of hours. I also don’t know that my boss thought it through and likely assumed that if I had to come back in I’d be here for four hours.

        1. irene adler*

          IN a sense, you are on-call for this 5 min task. Suggestion: might read up on the labor laws regarding on-call.
          It may be that you are entirely okay with doing personal stuff while you wait for the 5 min task to appear.

        2. Kim, No Longer Esq.*

          Don’t feel guilty! The company would not feel guilty about it. The company is looking out for the company, if you’re also looking out for the company, no one is looking out for you :)

        3. Just stoppin' by to chat*

          I would definitely not feel guilty taking the 4 hours. You could always plan to take it, and then if you have to work a little during that time, maybe it’s okay. But good for your company for recognizing that having to work outside of your normal work hours is inconvenient, and for compensating you somehow. Your night has been disrupted, so I say take advantage of the compensation for that!

        4. Kuododi*

          Oh my goodness!!! “Feeling guilty” is a waste of time and energy. (I’m not talking about guilt we all experience when we know we have said or done something hurtful to another person.). I’m referring to the “guilt” many people talk of when dealing with things in life outside of our control.

          Your time is as valuable as the next person in your place of employment. In fact, I would argue by not asking for the compensation you deserve, (either $$$ or comp time longer than 5 min.) you are sending a message to your supervisors and colleagues that your time is somehow of lesser value than the others at your job. In the long run it would make it harder to take you seriously regarding long term development within the company. Your time is valuable and worth fair compensation. It’s time to own that fact and be proactive regarding your needs in this arena of your job. Best regards.

    2. Miss Ames*

      You said you and your boss had agreed it could be considered comp time if you were staying in the facility, so it seems OK to handle it that way. I think if that is the case, though, then you probably should be working (at least casually) during the two hours – maybe doing some type of simple tasks that you can catch up on or some research.

    3. NforKnowledge*

      If you’re having to stay late at work, you should be compensated properly for all of that time. You could spend it working, if you have tasks to do, but I would also view it as similar to being compensated for time spent travelling for work or being on call. You may not be working during that time, but it is not free either, so the company owes you compensation.

      1. NforKnowledge*

        Ah, didn’t read closely enough for first time and see now that you refer to it as being on call. So 100% it is time for which you should be compensated, as extra labor beyond your usual work.

    4. The Man, Becky Lynch*

      I would be casually working if you have something to work on that is. I wouldn’t make something up, if you’re otherwise all caught up, then treat it like that [unless you’d usually be leaving if you were caught up, then of course don’t do that!].

      When we have a “Hangout and wait for this specific thing” come up, it’s understood the person is going to be twiddling their thumbs [and surfing the internet or reading a book, etc] until it’s time to do the actual job they’re staying for. It’s cost of doing business.

      Just like I’m paying the receptionist to sit and wait for a call. If no calls come in and there’s no little duties to do [everything is stocked in the lobby, everything is dusted, everything is mailed, etc] then heck no I don’t think she needs to find “work” to do, just read AAM or whatever and wait for your task.

      1. zora*

        This! It’s cost of doing business, don’t feel guilty!
        The cost to the company of those 4 hours is negligible, and especially if you consider the costs that might incur if you weren’t there and they had to wait until the next day! Take your hours!

    5. leya*

      important question: are you exempt or non-exempt? my understanding is (IANAL) that if you are non-exempt, you have to receive overtime for hours worked over 40 per week, and your employer can’t give you comp time instead of overtime (they could give it to you in addition to overtime, but not as a replacement for it). so first determine if you should be receiving overtime instead. remember that your employer doesn’t determine whether you’re exempt or not – the IRS does. alison has more info here: https://www.askamanager.org/exempt-and-non-exempt

    6. The Rat-Catcher*

      Our rules (and I thought it was law but don’t quote me) are that if you’re not free to leave, it’s work time. So if you finish work at 5:00 but have to return at 7:00, that isn’t work. But if you have to sit around until you can do your thing at 7:00, that’s work.

  15. Calacademic*

    15+ years ago (in high school) I worked with teenagers with intellectual disabilities in an after-school care program. When I left for college, one of those teens tried to get in touch with me at my school. He called the college and
    threated self-harm if they didn’t put him in touch with me. I got in touch with my ex-managers who addressed the issue. I did not hear from him again… until two days ago.

    My question: Do I need to be proactive about letting my work know that this person might try to reach me?

    (I have already reached out to some of the agencies that might work with this person — again, intellectual disability, there is an extra level of care that needs to be taken. This person lives many states away from me and I think there is a 0.000001% chance that he would be able to come to our physical location. I’m worried that he might try to call my workplace.)

    1. MechanicalPencil*

      I’ve had a very similar situation this week. Must be Hellmouth’s dissipation bringing this on.

      I just sent a very generic email to my HR person and explained XYZ is happening. I don’t expect anything to occur, but if it does I want you to be aware. This was at least in response to a longer standing issue, which I addressed with an in-person meeting.

    2. Nonny*

      What’s the worst-case scenario from telling them if nothing happens? Do you worry they’re likely to overreact or react strangely? If not, I’d say there’s no harm in giving them a heads-up– getting a random phone call with someone threatening self-harm seems way more upsetting than being told ‘hey FYI, this person may try to contact me, please do X if that happens.’

    3. 1234*

      How did this person manage to get your current contact info or even remotely know where you live/are???

        1. Wishing You Well*

          You can get anyone’s personal information online and usually for free. It’s not right, but it’s reality.

        2. 934txs*

          Definitely google yourself and see what comes up. When you find the holes that are leaking your info, plug them!

    4. epi*

      I probably would, in your place.

      Both intellectual disabilities and certain mental illness are common in people who stalk. (I am a health researcher, and read a lot of the research on this when I was being stalked at work myself.) I get the impression that you know this already, but threatening self-harm in order to make contact with you is very controlling and frightening behavior that should never be taken lightly. That’s true regardless of whether this person was truly at risk of harming themself, and regardless of whether they understood how wrong it is to make a threat like that in order to get their way.

      Unfortunately, someone who is fixated enough on you to do something like that, and to reach out again years later, needs to be kept from ever successfully contacting you again– for both of your sakes. This person cannot benefit from any help you (indirectly) get them if they are having their fixation reinforced through contact with you. If someone in your office were to, say, put a call from them through to you, that would probably be harmful to you and certainly harmful to this former student. It’s incredibly kind and thoughtful of you to be trying to get this person help from such a distance and while they are harassing you. Keeping them from making contact with you is also a kindness in its own way.

      If that’s not enough, don’t underestimate the effect this can have on you even if there is little or no risk of this person ever putting you in physical danger. It’s hard for people who haven’t been through it to understand, but most of the stress of stalking/harassment is… Not really about that. Persistent, difficult to escape harassment can have an even more serious effect on your mental health than physical trauma in some cases. If this person ever did successfully travel to you, or step up their harassment from a distance, you will need people around you who were already aware of the situation. And it will be helpful to you to already have some idea of who you can talk to who won’t minimize this situation.

      Best of luck! I hope this person gets the help they need and that this problem never recurs for either of you.

      1. Calacademic*

        Thank you for this incredibly thoughtful response. I appreciate this very, very much.

    5. NothingIsLittle*

      I think, given that he’s currently and actively trying to reach you, it would probably be worth giving your manager, or whoever seems most likely to hear from him, a heads up. At the very least, you’re probably going to feel better knowing that no one will accidentally patch him through to you. It’s worth keeping in mind that most people are unlikely to know how to handle someone threatening self-harm, so the heads up will both give them time to adjust and give you an opening to request they handle it a certain way.

      I would also recommend, similar to 934txs, that you lock down your online presence in any way that you can. Make your social media accounts private/friends only and keep things like phone numbers off of them. Remove your employment if you can. Also, do you have a LinkedIn he may have found you on? I’m not sure what you’d do, given that that website should actually have your workplace information, but it’s worth giving some thought.

      I had a stalker briefly in high school who tried to get back in contact when I was in college, and I handled it by going totally blank online. That was easier since it was early on in my college years and I have very few social media accounts to begin with, but that was enough to deter further contact.

    6. Polymer Phil*

      Is this someone who wants a romantic relationship when you’re not interested, or someone who has a grudge and wants to harm you?

      Either way, anyone who answers the phones at your job needs a heads-up that someone with bad intentions might call and try to get information about you. If your workplace has a front-desk receptionist, they should have a photo of him so they know to call the cops if he shows up.

  16. Cows go moo*

    I have a guy who’s given his notice to quit. Was a relief as he was generally unreliable and nobody liked working with him. He emailed me saying he’s not coming to work tomorrow because he wants to “hang out with some friends.”

    I am about to tell him we’re not changing his shift; and give him a formal warning for AWOL if he doesn’t turn up anyway. Because (1) he’s behaved like a douche many, many times; (2) I want to enforce the same consequences whether or not he’s leaving at the end of the month. The other manager says let’s not bother with the hassle and just let him take the day off. What say you?

    1. AndersonDarling*

      If you have to change that one shift, I would just change all of them and tell him not to come in again.

      1. Matilda Jefferies*

        Yep. I agree with your other manager about not bothering with the hassle – just tell him he’s had his last shift and his paperwork is in the mail. I would bet large sums of money that if you let him take this day off, it won’t be his last – he’s going to skip out a bunch more times and leave you scrambling. So much easier for everyone to just agree that he’s not coming in at all, and plan accordingly.

        1. AndersonDarling*

          And if I was one of the other people on the team, I wouldn’t mind covering an extra shift if I knew I didn’t have to work with a jerk anymore.

        1. The Man, Becky Lynch*

          This isn’t’ job abandonment depending on the jursidiction’s definition. Here you have to literally not be seen or heard from in 3 days, then you have to send a letter saying “Hey you abandoned your job? Or did you?” and then go from there. Otherwise it’s just a standard attendance issue and if it’s not a pattern already documented and even then, they’re still eligible most of the time.

          1. NomdePlumage*

            Something like this is most likely documented in a policy or handbook. Example, my current company’s employee handbook says 2 days no-call no-show is job abandonment. I had a previous job with a policy that stated you cannot call in sick if you are on notice to leave–you’re remaining shifts will be cancelled.

            1. The Man, Becky Lynch*

              Handbooks are only for the company side of things. They’re not law or regulations outside the particular business.

              That means they may or may not be in line with the actual definition used when the state decides eligibility for unemployment benefits.

              I’ve seen company policy and unemployment not line up before. It’s rather common.

      2. MusicWithRocksInIt*

        If he gave notice then decided not to come into work, I don’t think he would qualify.

      3. ExcelJedi*

        He’d only qualify for the time between his last day and the day he intended to be his last. TBH, it’s probably worth paying for 2 weeks of unemployment to get rid of a jerk.

    3. Rusty Shackelford*

      The hassle is your hassle, right? It’s not creating a hassle for someone else? Then why does the other manager care? Personally, I’d go ahead and write him up. Especially if it will actually have some impact on him, like making him ineligible for rehire in the future. Because I think “they can’t fire me, so I’m going to make life harder for the people who still work there” is an attitude that does not need to be rewarded.

      1. LawBee*

        It is entirely possible that OP asked the other manager’s opinion, don’t you think? I mean, she’s asking us…

        1. Rusty Shackelford*

          Oh, sorry, I didn’t mean why is the other manager expressing an opinion. I meant that it seems unlikely that the LW’s actions will impact the other manager, so they shouldn’t have a problem if the OP decides to do something.

    5. LawBee*

      I’d tell him that if he would like to change his last day to tomorrow (and not show up) that’s fine but otherwise he is expected to be there. Don’t have a conversation about it, just state it, say “so if we don’t see you tomorrow, then that will be your last day, and we’ll send termination paperwork in the mail” or whatever it is you do.

      He’s quitting and a jerk. Do what’s easy for you.

    6. The Man, Becky Lynch*

      I’m assuming the other managers say not to bother because they wouldn’t bother, I’m assuming that the “hassle” is really just all on your shoulders, not theirs, so it’s just their “opinion” of what they would do in this case, right?

      If it’s just extra work for YOU and you want to do it, then go for it! I understand that completely, I do a lot of “You don’t have to do that” things because I’m like “Yeah but I want to so I’m gonna for my reasons.”

      We would have just told him to go ahead and take the rest of his notice period off. Here since he already quit, not scheduling him for the last 2 weeks wouldn’t constitute a firing. It’s the same as walking someone out if they quit and give notice. You have no obligation to accept their notice period ever. So go ahead and just say “okay then this is your last day, bye now.”

    7. WellRed*

      Consequences? What consequences? There’s no consequences. He’s leaving! What exactly is the formal warning going to achieve? Nothing! Zip! Zero! Zilch! Cut him loose now or accept he may pull this a few more times before his final shift and accept that you can’t rely on him.

    8. MoopySwarpet*

      Don’t punish him just because you’re annoyed, but handle it how you would if he were staying. In the meantime, I’d probably change the schedule to double up on coverage when he is scheduled to work, minimize his shifts, or ask if other employees will be on standby for his shifts. Which one would depend on which is easiest to implement and covers what you need.

    9. NothingIsLittle*

      I think that depends a bit on what industry you’re in. If it’s one of the service industries, I understand that it would be pretty common to just cut him loose if he did that, especially since he’s quitting anyway. In a more formal industry, like say accounting, his actions would be unusual, but likely wouldn’t warrant early termination.

      As I see it, it’s not worth going to the trouble of writing him up unless he’s likely to reapply for a job there or if not doing so will affect the other employee’s morale (Of course, it might be for you. And if it is, and it won’t make anyone else’s life more difficult, go right ahead!). Either you should let him do it, but verbally be disappointed in him and possibly change his schedule to days where him skipping won’t be a huge burden, or you should let him know that skipping any shift without a medical reason will be considered an early resignation.

    10. Former Retail Manager*

      If unemployment is not a concern for you, I’d tell him that although he has given his two week notice, you no longer require his services. This was kind of the go-to in retail when a difficult employee gave notice. On the up side, he’d then have plenty of time to “hang out with his friends.”

  17. Matilda Jefferies*

    I had an interview on Monday 8th. It went well, as far as anyone can tell from this side of the table, so now it’s just the waiting part. I mean, *I* know I’m the perfect candidate for the job, so obviously it shouldn’t take them any time at all to agree with me, right? Just because they have other candidates and the hiring manager is going on vacation next week, doesn’t mean they can’t provide an instant response!

    *tap*tap*tap*
    *fidget*fidget*fidget*
    *pace*pace*pace*

    Hurry UP, people with other priorities! Can’t you see I’m waiting patiently over here?!

    1. DietCokeHead*

      Ooh, I feel your frustration. I had a phone interview this week and now I’m waiting to hear if I make it to an in person interview. I wish you luck! Try and distract yourself if you can. I planned an outing for Saturday as a distraction.

    2. Alice*

      Ooh, absolutely! I had two interviews last week and they said they’d get back to me in a couple of weeks… Clearly this means they should have been in touch days ago and not actually in two weeks! How very silly of hiring managers to take all this time when they could just hire us and be done with the thing…

  18. Anon for this*

    I’ve managed to destroy three office chairs in the last hour due to my time of the month.

    1. Holy shit, am I dying???
    2. How…. do I even handle this?

    1. Sunshine Brite*

      Go to the store and get products asap! Let a supervisor know and pop out quick. As well as give maintenance a heads up that there needs to be some bio-cleanup.

      1. Anon for this*

        And try not to collapse into a puddle of embarrassment! This is THE WORST. OH MY GODDD.

        1. Sunshine Brite*

          Oh yes, you speak my language. Mine was super heavy until I finally couldn’t anymore and kept pressing doctors to try something. Mine got lighter with the Nexplanon implant; took about a year but it did.

      2. Librarian of SHIELD*

        And while you’re getting products, buy the cheapest towel you can find. I sleep on a beach towel during shark week, and I think putting one in your office chair for the day is reasonable.

        (Also, if you’re feeling at all weak or faint, get yourself some iron)

    2. peachie*

      Oh boy, that doesn’t sound good — if you have a way to see a doctor, that might be a good idea?

      1. Anon for this*

        Unfortunately my gyno’s response was essentially “sucks, it can happen, pack more tampons”

        1. Sunflower*

          What??? I don’t know how long you’ve been going to your gyno but I would suggest finding a new one or maybe/definitely considering a specialist. I know this stuff can be related to some other medical things going on and I’ve never heard that as the default response. Definitely keep looking before you give up.

          In the mean time, Do you have dark blanket you can fold up and sit on in case it happens again?

          1. valentine*

            There are bed pads you can buy, but you might want to for a dish drying mat because that’ll just look like you enjoy the decoration or you want a bit of a cushion on your chair.

            ~keep a couple changes of trousers at work, along with gloves in case you need to rinse something
            ~wear jeans or other sturdy trousers (maybe black or indigo)
            ~incontinence underwear (not diapers, the ones that look like pull-ups (because, well, they are))
            ~overnight maxi pads, placed two front, two back

            When you pull up the pad-laden underwear, push the front in so it’s kind of like a saddle and sticks to you when you move. Be sure it’s tucked up before you stand, to absorb bloodfall, especially if you cough or sneeze.

            Consult a doctor. Severe is changing a pad or tampon every hour. There is medication that will reduce the flow. They might want to check your iron levels.

        2. ZSD*

          I’d get a second opinion. My mother had such terrible flooding that she wore three super absorbency tampons at once and still bled through them, and when she finally had a hysterectomy, it turns out she had large cysts throughout her uterus. (I’m not saying that that’s what’s causing your flooding. I’m just saying it might be a good idea to talk to a second gyno.)

          As for the chairs, I’d suggest setting them on fire. No, seriously, I guess just let your facilities person know that the chairs need to be replaced? I’m sorry you’re having to deal with this!

            1. EH*

              I doubled the super plus ones back when I was using ’em. As long as you’re not leaving them in more than a few hours and they’re not coming out dry, you’re probably good on that front. (IANAD, tho)

              So much sympathy, Anon! This kind of thing sucks so bad.

              I come from a family with stupidly heavy periods (grandma used to faint from anemia), and all we ever got told was “yup, that’s a bummer.” There’s usually nothing obviously wrong with us – the occasional cyst (but not at all PCOS), say – so… yeah. No help from the docs. I had an endometrial ablation years ago and it was the best thing I ever did. I knew I was 100% not going to have kids and had a good OB-GYN who believed me. Stopped the bleeding entirely after a month or so and almost all of the hormone cycle PMS nonsense I used to have went away too.

        3. Lance*

          I’m not a woman, so I don’t know anything about this sort of thing… but if I got such a hand-wavey response from a doctor about an issue I was having, I’d be going elsewhere for a second opinion.

          1. londonedit*

            Unfortunately, us women are all too used to getting ‘hand-wavey responses’ from doctors no matter what the issue, but especially with anything gynaecological. It’s a documented problem.

          2. dawbs*

            Being female means if you’re breathing air while complaining, you can expect at least 1/3 of all medical appointments to be met with handwavey dismissal.
            (Says the person who is *STILL ANGRY* that my last ER visit has in my records, which the hospital refuses to correct, that I had ‘moderate pain’ when I had said my pain was a 10/10 and I was heaving from the pain on the regular)
            It’s a pretty well document pile of BS that we’re awfully used to.

        4. buttrue???*

          Use pads in with the lampoon. It’s what I did during the heaviest flow. And change every hour if you have to.

          2. Mbarr*

            +1 – I use a diva cup, but there are days where I have to empty that bad boy 3 times in a morning… A pad would help alleviate the panic I feel that it might overflow.

            1. NothingIsLittle*

              That’s what I do! Pads in the beginning when there’s more chance of overflow, then liners later on when I’m changing it on a schedule and not because it’s full.

              Given how bad it seems to be though, the above comment about sitting on a towel might be appropriate!

          3. Jules the 3rd*

            +1 to using both; overnight heavy (the 5th one on my brand) and change every hour. When it’s super heavy, I sometimes use 1 tampon + 2 pads, with the pads in a T formation to cover any leakage.

            And while it’s embarrassing, it happens to lots of people. Do make sure you’re drinking plenty and eating lots of iron – spinach salads or beef.

            +1 also to a new gynecologist, unless you know a reason for it. Mine is that my IUD and hyperthyroidism sometimes conspire, so 2mo of heavy lining go in 3 days (and I do Very Badly on hormonal bc, sigh). I try to wfh on the first of the flood days, but it’s not regular.

            sympathy…

        5. Jaid*

          Tell your gyno that s/he sucks. That said, I used to use overnight Always pads with wings. Maybe tampons are not the way to go?
          My sympathies.

          1. 1234*

            +1 to overnight Always pads with wings (I use them during the day too)

            Never used a tampon before in my life.

          2. Alice*

            I also suggest pads with wings, they’re the only thing that helps me. That and frequent bathroom visits (I go as often as every 2 hours on the worst days).

            Although I would also get a second opinion from a different gyno.

        6. Bunny Girl*

          Some gynos are the worst I swear. Makes me really wonder why they let D students pass medical school. I had a partial hysterectomy but before I had one I went to my (old) gyno because I had been bleeding for three months. Straight. No pause. She said it was “an inconvenience, not a medical issue.”

          2. Pebbles Bishop*

            That’s awful! I would absolutely get a second opinion. I’ve been bleeding/spotting for two and a half months at this point (but it’s due to an IUD and I knew it was coming) and I’m SO DONE. So, you have my deepest sympathies.

            1. A Simple Narwhal*

              I totally get it and you have all of my sympathy. Honestly the first six months after getting my IUD kinda sucked, but it was smooth sailing afterwards, and I didn’t have any problems at all when I got it replaced, so good times are ahead of you!

            2. Bunny Girl*

              Oh yeah I never went to visit her again. As I said, I don’t even have a period anymore because I had a partial hysterectomy (praise Jesus). I definitely encourage people to get second opinions because unfortunately, there’s a lot of gynos out there (still!) with really archaic mindsets who believe women should just put up with whatever happens so they can have millions of babies for the glory of the state or because we’re “just being hysterical.”

              1. Brazilian Hobbit*

                So much this. Before I had my own hysterectomy, I went to a gyno and she refused to even look at the possibility of a hysterectomy because 1- I was ‘too young (at 35) to decide not to have children’; 2- I could just take the pill for 6 months and come back to her (I can’t take the pill due to other health conditions and I told her that, but she insisted); 3- If I don’t want kids, ‘my husband might’ (I’m not married). The other doctor I saw after this one only believed me because other patients had come from this doctor to her before with the same situation. Also, +1 on ‘praise Jesus’ for not having to deal with periods anymore!

                1. Bunny Girl*

                  I had to go to 12 different doctors before I found one who was even willing to talk to me about a hysterectomy. I finally went to Planned Parenthood and they suggested someone out of town. I emailed him and said “Look before I even drive down there, here’s what’s going on and this is what I want. If you won’t even consider it, I don’t want to waste my time.” Luckily he said Oh yeah let’s talk. He offered me two different options (the hysterectomy or another surgery that would help with the pain but not the other issues) and then he had one more consultation with me before the surgery but then we just scheduled.

            3. Mother of Doggos*

              Hang in there, Pebbles! I’ve had an IUD before and things were really wack for the first couple months, then my period disappeared around the 6 month mark, so hopefully your experience is similar!

              OP, consider asking for a second opinion or a second look by your doctor.

        7. peachie*

          Ugh @ that gyno! That is not an appropriate response! I’m sorry, that’s so stressful. If you feel elsewise off — like, lightheaded, feverish, etc. — it might be worth it to go to an urgent care clinic.

          [Less-serious tangent, but earlier this year, I had my period for three months straight — not hemorrhaging, just a pain — and my gyn’s response was basically “Huh, that sucks.” !!! Why are they like that!! ]

        8. Tau*

          Yeah, absolutely get a second opinion. Sudden heavy bleeding can be a sign of quite a few medical issues, and can cause problems in its own right. I ended up with super-heavy periods twice due to fibroids, both times I ended up getting surgery to remove them, and both times I also ended up really, really badly anaemic prior (to the point where I think I narrowly avoided being hospitalized). Letting that go unchecked would have been a very bad idea.

        9. MusicWithRocksInIt*

          You need a new gyno – stat. I recently had a baby and after the first 24 hours I couldn’t have done that. Unless you are using the worst tampons ever that is too much blood too fast. Until then try using both a tampon and a pad?

        10. Yorick*

          You can use a pad also, or get the absorbent period underwear to wear with a tampon (I have thinx and I love them)

            1. MatKnifeNinja*

              My niece has heavy periods. The first two days are unreal. She has to use Thinx undies, a pad with wings and a tampon.

              Two gyns said the periods are “normal”, and she’s not one of those women that can use 1 regular tampon for 4 hours.

              My periods have always been the one tampon for a few hours kind. I thought this kid was bleeding to death. She destroyed to chairs at home bleeding through everything. I was hysterical bringing my niece in. The gyn acted like I was nuts. Both did a work up. Nothing is out of whack, but for now her periods will suck for the first three days.

              Yeah…we got the lecture pack more stuff, and don’t bother with the light day tampons.

        11. Michelle*

          Had the same issue- extremely heavy, soaking through both super tampons and overnight pads. I literally felt like the doctor was going to let me die- they were talking blood transfusions and sent me to be checked for leukemia- I had enough and got a second opinion. That doctor recommended a laparoscopic hysterectomy with bilateral salpingectomy. I honestly think he saved my life.

          1. Tau*

            Many sympathies – there’s something really terrifying about your period going haywire like that, right? Like, your blood, that stuff that you need in order to live, is escaping your body in large quantities and there is nothing at all you can do to stop it. I’m also fairly convinced my fibroids would have killed me without medical (surgical) intervention.

            1. Elizabeth West*

              I have one small one, according to the surgeon who took out my gallbladder, and even though my periods are bad, they’re not that bad. They do like to surprise me sometimes, so I keep a pair of undies in the bathroom (at work, I’d just put some in my purse).

        12. dealing with dragons*

          I was told that re pain I was having (“sometimes periods hurt”) like I freakin know

          I got them to listen by telling them I wanted to cut my body open to end the pain, which go their attention (and was true). I’ve found asking them what the actual baseline is to be effective. like, how much should you bleed, how many days, how often before it’s a concern, etc.

          anyway, got the surgery, had a bunch of endometriosis. who knew.

          just kidding, I knew.

          1. Oh My Glob*

            After my endometrial ablation a couple years ago, I was (and still am) simultaneously thrilled with my “new normal” periods and kinda pissed off that I didn’t know that for many, MANY people this IS their normal and always has been. Like, since I started bleeding at 13 I was way off the bell curve, and I just thought that periods sucked and needed to be dealt with for 10 or 15 years, after which I decided *I* needed to find a better solution and had to argue with doctors about it. But none of the doctors ever said “X days, X amount of fluid is typical for someone in your circumstances” so I would know just how bad off I was.

        13. Mockingjay*

          The rules forbid armchair diagnosing, but, in my own personal experience, when that happened to me it was due to thyroid issues. Once I got on a thyroid supplement, things went back to normal (still heavy – but that was my norm).

          Please let us know how you are doing later.

        14. Aitch Arr*

          WTF?

          This happened to me soon after my Mirena was removed. I ended up needing cauterization and medication to stop the hemorrhaging.

        15. NomdePlumage*

          Did gyno run tests? There may be other issues here, like menorrhagia or PCOS. A lot of gynos can be dismissive; it took me three different gynos before one suggested an ultrasound that helped them discover the cysts.

        16. alphabet soup*

          Second everyone here who says to get a second opinion.

          My gyno just asked about my flow during a routine checkup and said, “hmm, that sounds like a lot. could be something serious.” She sent me for further testing and it turns out I have PCOS. I was kind of amazed because I didn’t even realize my flow was abnormal since it’s always been like this and wasn’t experiencing any other symptoms.

          So, could be something more serious and you never know unless you get it checked.

          In terms of managing heavy flow, the Super Jennie menstrual cup might be an option. It has the largest capacity of any cup currently on the market.

    3. Miss Ames*

      I can sympathize – I’ve been there (though I can’t say I got to the point of destroying chairs!). I got to the point on a few days where I just had to go home. Period. I could not be at work in that condition. This was about 10 years ago (I was about 40), and in my case this was due to hormones and I ended up getting on the proper meds and I am happy to say that eliminated my problem completely.

      1. Anax*

        Likewise, sympathizing. I have PCOS. Plus side, mine are usually very light or nonexistent. Minus side, they’re 100% random and unpredictable – so I can’t plan at all for the rare red floods, and I’ve definitely soaked a few chairs.

        Thank goodness for birth control; that’s helped SO MUCH.

      1. Parenthetically*

        YES, peroxide is a life-saver. Also BioKleen’s Bac-Out, which also smells delightfully light and natural (lime oil, I believe, is the source of the aroma rather than a perfume).

    5. londonedit*

      What about those ‘period-proof’ underpants, like Thinx? They might not be enough on their own, but wearing them as back-up with tampons might help to save the chairs?

      2. Ktelzbeth*

        Another brand is Luna Pads, which makes underwear. I like those because you can change a removable inner liner without having to change the whole underpant (like I think you do with Thinx), as long as it hasn’t gone too far.

    6. Anon for this too...*

      Something similar happened to me for multiple weeks once. To prevent the destruction of clothing and office equipment: bathroom every hour. Set a reminder. Put some sort of black clothing item on your chair if you keep anything in the office.

      Usually, if you are going through multiple tampons an hour, a doctor’s office will get you in or send you to the ER. Especially if it lasts for multiple hours or multiple days.

    7. Matilda Jefferies*

      Three chairs in an hour? That’s a lot. Honestly, you should get yourself to a medical clinic in the next day or two. You’re not dying (probably!), and you don’t need to drop what you’re doing and race to the ER, but you should definitely be talking to a doctor sooner rather than later.

      Feel better soon, and please keep us posted!

      https://www.mayoclinic.org/diseases-conditions/menorrhagia/symptoms-causes/syc-20352829
      Seek medical help before your next scheduled exam if you experience:
      Vaginal bleeding so heavy it soaks at least one pad or tampon an hour for more than two hours

      1. AFT*

        This is what I was going to say as well. It is not normal and could be a number of underlying issues.
        I ended up with an ablation and so far one of the best decisions I have made.

    8. Celeste*

      Find a new doctor and look into an IUD such as Mirena. It releases progesterone slowly over 5 years and is being widely used as a way to control dysfunctional bleeding.

      2. A Simple Narwhal*

        I have a Skyla IUD and it took me from “oh god oh god oh god I bled through everything again how am I not dead” to only having to change tampons because of time limits and not capacity. Absolutely life changing.

    9. Neosmom*

      For question number 2 – maybe place a puppy pad on your office chair. Doesn’t help your clothes, but it will prevent the need to clean up / replace a destroyed chair. Good luck and my sympathies.

        1. Seven hobbits are highly effective, people*

          Yeah, it’s better to use the ones for humans rather than puppies. The ones for puppies sometimes have scents to “encourage” the puppies to use them, the ones for humans do not.

    10. Anon for this*

      This feels like a higher power punishing me for not feeling guilty about getting a DNC. Damnit.

      1. londonedit*

        Absolutely not! Do not think like that. Medical issues happen and they can happen to anyone. Definitely get a second medical opinion, though. You shouldn’t have to put up with this sort of thing (women ‘put up’ with far too much because we’re constantly told that pain/bleeding/whatever ‘just sucks, sorry, part of being a woman’. It shouldn’t have to be!)

      2. Anon for this too...*

        If you’re recovering that, this wouldn’t be abnormal. Any chance you take the rest of the day off if you delicately say, “I’m having a health situation involving abnormal bleeding today, and I need to handle it.” Don’t ask permission, just be factual.

          1. Rusty Shackelford*

            You’ve had abnormal bleeding ever since a D&C? Get a different doctor. Immediately.

            2. Anon for this*

              From what my gyno told me I’m just short of concern level bleeding (although FFS I’m concerned!!)

                1. Anon for this*

                  Starting to realize she may be… she also didn’t see my reason for concern when before the abortion I would *never* get my period. I had the physical symptoms of a cycle (breakouts, weight gain, boobs, feelings, etc) but no flow.

                2. Quandong*

                  Please make a doctor’s appointment as soon as possible – with a GP who can refer you to a new Gynae specialist.

                  I’m sorry you have not received the appropriate level of care you required after your procedure and hope things improve soon.

              2. Natalie*

                Have you talked to the doctors at the abortion clinic? They might be more familiar with possible side effects / after effects – for various annoying political reasons, a lot of general practice doctors get zero training in elective abortion.

              3. zora*

                I agree with the others, go to another dr. The ‘Concern level’ is pretty subjective, many gynos would definitely be concerned about this much bleeding!! Second opinion time!

              4. secondopinion*

                PLEASE go to a different doctor!! you have like 20 strangers telling you this is crazy & not normal :(

      4. Elizabeth West*

        NO. No one is punishing you.
        I just saw that this has been going on for a long time after your procedure–you NEED to get checked out ASAP! And come back and update us because we worry.

    11. Corky's wife Bonnie*

      As others have said, go to another gyno. I was like that as long as I had it, and it turned out I had huge fibroids (one as large as a softball). Not saying that’s your case, but you need more info than just a hand wave. They’ll probably start with some tests. In the meantime, buy a black or dark colored towel, use that to sit on your office chair during your time, and start experimenting with feminine products. I also wore the Always with wings, the heaviest one they had. I am sorry this is happening to you. Hopefully a new doctor will figure this out for you.

    12. Merci Dee*

      I’ve always had an extremely heavy flow (all of the women in my family do, and my daughter is learning this the hard way), and I can’t use tampons for reasons.

      I always use the Always brand pads, overnight level 5, and I use 2 at the same time — I place one so that the long end extends toward the front, and place the other so that it covers about 1/4 – 1/3 of the first pad and the long end extends toward the back. The double layer in the middle really helps to prevent leaks, and that arrangement usually holds for a couple of hours before I have to change.

      Yes, it can sometimes feel like I’m wearing a diaper, but it’s worth it for the peace of mind and extra absorbency that I get.

      1. Ugh yes this*

        Yeah, I do something similar. It’s not so much the heavy flow as where’s the blood going (?!). Needed that peace of mind that I was covered straight down and up my cr*ck. Thank you very much Mother Nature you B!@$%.

        1. Jaid*

          I used to do that, too! I’d have to double up the overnight because it wasn’t long enough!

        2. SoVeryAnonForThis*

          I do this too, and also an ultra-plus tampon (purple wrapper). On the heaviest days I have to change the tampon every 2 hours. It suuuuuuuuuuuucks.

      2. Bortus*

        FWIW, my mom who does now wear adult depends, swears if she had known then what she knows now, she would have worn them for her period too. Have you thought about maybe trying them?

        1. A tester, not a developer*

          I wear them for… reasons, and they are great for that, especially for overnight.

    13. Anon2*

      I had horrible periods for so long, I had to use a tampon and a large pad, and they had to be changed every 30-45 minutes during my heaviest flow times, and my periods lasted 5-7 days. I wouold have 1 day a month where I could barely get off the couch because of cramping. 10 years ago I got a non-hormonal IUD, and it changed everything. My periods now last 3 days, and 1/2 day of heavy flow – but that heavy flow is 1/4 of what it was prior to the IUD. I no longer have to wear a pad and a tampon and only need to change the tampon every 1 hour or so.
      A couple of things to know about the non-hormonal IUD (copper)
      1. I have never had kids, so it was a bit painful going in
      2. The first 3 -4 months after my periods were awful and very painful, but my doctor assured me they would get better, and he was right. They did! It changed my life.
      3. They can be removed at anytime
      4. The only need to be swapped out every 7-10 years. I am going in October to get mine changed

      Good luck!

    14. Ama*

      Just going to drop in, as someone who had a lot of unpredictable bleeding earlier in my life, saline (any salt solution, but regular old contact saline works fine) is really good at taking blood stains out of stuff, especially if it is chairs or other surfaces that can’t really be thrown in the wash. It actually works for any protein stain, but has saved more than a few sets of sheets and pairs of pants for me — it works better the fresher the stain is but I have used it on dried stains with pretty good success before.

      I used to keep a bottle of contact saline in my desk at work just in case which confused anyone who happened to see it since I wear glasses.

    15. Zephy*

      If a flow this heavy isn’t normal for you, see a doctor. I see that your gyno told you to suck it up, buttercup – +1 suggestion to see more gynos until one of them listens to you.

      If the amount is normal for you but it’s just the leaking that’s unusual, did you switch to a different brand/style/line of menstrual products recently, or was your usual product maybe redesigned? Did you get new underwear, if you use pads? I have had unexpected leakage after switching to a different style of undies and not quite getting the pad placement right.

    16. CupcakeCounter*

      as i am currently on my heavy day (although not even close to the hemorrhaging you seem to be experiencing), I am extremely grateful for my leather office chair and my penchant for anti-bacterial wet wipes.
      Yes I have a kid. It is a boy. I have purchased stock in hand sanitize and wet wipes. And bleach.

    17. jDC*

      For sure tampons aren’t enough at this point. A regular pad too, not just a panty liner. Also another doctor. I heard some commercial where they said the average woman bleeds one tablespoon her whole period. I nearly fell over laughing. Ya. Ok. I also have been told I was a drug seeker for going to the doctor when a cyst ruptured. Mind you I didn’t ask for drugs, had never been given any in my life outside of being run over and breaking my femur (which they overdosed me which is why I don’t take them) and when they gave them to me my heart rate when nuts and I was shaking and crying in the ER. Some doctors are just awful. She never even told me what was wrong. Just walked away and never came back then discharged me. I really don’t know why some doctors brush these things off but I think it’s time to find another GYN.

      1. Llama Face!*

        “…the average woman bleeds one tablespoon her whole period.”
        Was the company who made this commercial also the source where guys got the idea we could start and stop our periods like peeing?
        O.M.G

        2. Kuododi*

          Ok… whoever came up with that “one tablespoon” pile of steaming excrement was smoking something truly bizarre. It’s the only explanation I can find to justify such a ridiculous statement. GACK!!!

    18. Been There*

      If you have not tried a menstrual cup, I highly recommend it. I have a relatively normal flow and I could wear one for 24+ hours (not recommended generally but it was a special case) without leakage. They’re easy to put in and remove in the shower (no need to empty during work hours) and they really keep everything contained.

      They’re a little expensive but worth the investment – I bought one 3-4 years ago and haven’t needed to replace it yet.

      Also, go to a different Gyno – yours sucks. That’s NOT normal.

      1. Mbarr*

        +1 for menstrual cups – but I have a super heavy flow and have to empty mine in the work bathroom all the time. On bad days, I may have to empty it 3 times by lunch.

        It can feel awkward – especially when you get blood on your fingers that you can’t quite wipe off with toilet paper, but honestly, no one notices while you wash off at the sink. What’s worse is when you dump out your cup, but the toilet refuses to flush. :| I try with all my might, then eventually leave the scene of the crime (and sometimes return right away, since the act of leaving and re-entering the stall can trigger the automatic sensor – my old company’s override buttons DIDN’T WORK).

    19. Policy Wonk*

      Emergency room. This is not normal. You need medical attention. (And a new GYN if this has happened before and been dismissed.)

      1. Jules the 3rd*

        mmm – that reaaaally depends on the style of protection they’re using. If it’s tampons or even menstrual cups (placement errors), leakage isn’t that strange. If they’re bleeding *through* tampons + pads, then maybe – check for pain and fever, if they have either, then emergency room.

        I am concerned about the ‘this has been happening since the gyn procedure 2 years ago’ part, tho. Deeply.

        1. Quandong*

          It is extremely concerning that this has been happening since a procedure in September 2017!

    20. bunniferous*

      Always superabsorbent pads are your friends along with the tampons.

      I am past the change but if you are in perimenopause sadly this sort of thing can go with the territory. But I do think getting a second doc opinion is worth the hassle.

      1. Anon for this*

        I’m 27. Before my D&C my periods almost never came (and surprise surprise, the gyno didn’t think that was anything to worry about, either!) After? It’s like a dam has broken.

          1. valentine*

            Assuming your abortion provider is a different person, that’s someone to speak to. If you have access to a nurse advice line or a Planned Parenthood, those may be better options. Everyone urging you to keep seeking help is right.

        2. Aunt Vixen*

          Friend, I am here to join the chorus of SECOND OPINION. You deserve to be taken much more seriously than that doctor has taken you. I wish I could be more help than just to stand here yelling.

        3. Quandong*

          I had a condition of the endometrium that was only discovered in the course of getting some other medical symptom checked out. One of the signs my endometrium was not functioning as intended was that I also had no period flow, but experienced PMS: it didn’t bother me so I didn’t mention it to my care providers.

          Following my diagnosis I had a number of HD&Cs to manage this condition. I had a lot of guidance about what was and wasn’t within the range of ‘normal’ or ‘expected’ bleeding afterwards, both short-and long-term. What you’re describing is outside the range of ‘expected’ according to my medical advice.

          Given what you’ve written, your current gyno is not responsive enough – quite honestly, they sound terrible on the level of ‘people may have sued for negligence in the past’ terrible. They ought to have been following up on you with much greater care and urgency!

          Your initial reports about your lack of period flow should have been investigated. Not to mention this excessive bleeding since your D&C in September 2017 (!!OMG!!!!!!WTF!!!).

          Please, please document your symptoms and get yourself to a doctor. Your GP may be able to refer you for urgent assessment and treatment. If you have access to a GP or nurse helpline, consider contacting them. You may also consider going to a walk-in clinic in the next few days if you can’t get an appointment with your regular GP.

          You deserve better treatment and timely care.

          I’m so sorry you’re having this stressful and awful time with flooding periods that destroy your chairs at work, and hope you can get some appropriate treatment very soon.

        4. Kat in VA*

          Adding the multitudes who say SEE A DIFFERENT GYNO. Not all docs are good, some of them downright suck. And for yours to go, “Eh, I’m not at CONCERN level enough to do anything about this” even though it’s a major change from normal since you had a procedure two.freaking.years.ago, I’d find a gyn who was sufficiently CONCERNED about what’s happening.

          There’s still this aura of mystery and shrugs when it comes to uniquely female ailments (PCOS, endometriosis, dysmenorrhea) and it’s downright infuriating.

    21. MMB*

      * Warning graphic!!

      I thought about going anon for this due to embarrassment, but decided to own it. When I was younger I had one or two periods like the one you are describing. I was TERRIFIED and went to the ER absolutely covered in blood from the waist down holding two drenched bath towels that I had soaked through on the 30 minute drive there. Only to be told that I was fine. After I hit my early to mid 40’s I began having extremely long heavy flash flood style periods. My husband, sister and I refer to it as “crime scene day”. One to two days of severed artery style gushing and 12-15 days of general misery. Here’s what I learned: OB Ultra tampons backed up by the ultra thin super absorbent Always nighttime pads and believe it or not testosterone. Yep testosterone. Progesterone helped but testosterone was the key. It took several years and multiple Dr’s who wouldn’t listen to solve it. Don’t be afraid to get a second opinion if you have concerns Dr’s are NOT infallible. I’m so sorry you are dealing with such a humiliating and frightening situation. Your not alone and I hope you feel better. Go home, get some rest and load up on heme (meat derived) iron or non-heme iron and vitamin c.

      1. Jules the 3rd*

        +1 – this is not normal and Anon, you need a Dr to take it seriously.

        MMB, sympathy!

      2. Not So NewReader*

        omg. Yes. Testosterone. Women have a small amount but we super need that amount. If we are without it then it can feel like we might die.

        If the doc suggests testosterone, be not afraid. I cannot believe how it helped pull me up out of a pit I had fallen into.

    22. Ariana Grande's Ponytail*

      This happened to me on vacation last year, and the period stayed for a month bc my uterus was shedding wildly as it had decided to be done with my IUD.

      A) I would be packing double (tampons+regular pads) for now
      B) I want to suggest the cup, if you aren’t already using it! That is part of what saved me during this time period, plus you can tell how much is coming out each day (there are little notches on the DivaCup describing tbsps). This is useful information to have for your doctor.
      C) Find a new gyno who takes your concerns seriously. No doctor who waves you off is worth your time and money. You are well within your rights to go “this is not normal for me, and I’d like to investigate what is going on” instead of accepting your doctor’s word at face value.
      D) If it is possible that you are having an early miscarriage, you may also want to check in with your doctor. That is what they told me when this was going on.

    23. Elspeth Mcgillicuddy*

      Would adult diapers work? I’ve never tried them, but they’ve got to be designed for better volume capacity and sealing than pads. Maybe a bit embarrassing, but not as bad as bleeding on chairs.

      2. Midwest writer*

        I had to switch to using these overnight a few months ago. I could not find a pad that would contain everything at night, partly because of volume and partly because of the way I slept. I am so glad I finally gave in and tried them.

    24. Zenomorph*

      Just wanted to say that all these internet articles that claim the average amount of menstrual blood shed daily is around a tablespoon, or that total period blood averages 60 ml, make me laugh and laugh and laugh. I can’t imagine where these statistics come from. It’s hard for me to believe that the average woman has such a light period.

    25. Cat Meowmy Admin*

      Oh Hunnteeee!! I feel for you! (I agree on getting a 2nd opinion at minimum)
      Although I’m post-meno for years, I have a family history of heavy, heavy flow. My 1st job at age 18, wearing the company’s uniform jumper (when we wore miniskirts back in the day). In 95° summer heat, standing on NYC subway platform, and I began to look like something out of a crime scene from the waist down, onto the platform floor. Horrified me ran up to the street and hailed a taxi. When dropped off, I left a pool of blood all over the back seat of the cab. I was hysterical and mortified, my mom scheduled a dr appt. (I was ok) But it’s Scary AF!! Over the years, I doubled and tripled my pads, wore incontinence underwear, but no tampons. (Dr said not a good idea in my case for regular use, its supposed to come out. Around that time bc toxic shock syndrome became a serious thing.)
      I recommend the menstrual cup, overnight pads/underwear, and especially disposable incontinence bed pads (like puppy pads) to help you through this a little.
      Please keep us posted! Wishing you well, we’re here in support and solidarity!

    26. Medication relief*

      Lots of good advice for you in the threads, but if this is an ongoing thing for you (and all the heavy bleeders in the replies!) ask your doc about taking tranexamic acid during your period. It is designed to help blood to create clots, and can be used for heavy periods, with dosage related to an individual’s body weight.

      I use a menstrual cup, and on my second day of bleeding would have to empty it every hour or so to keep it from overflowing and leaking. Thought it was normal, but when I couldn’t get through a 45 min aquatic fitness class (I’m a lifeguard), I brought it up to my doc. Tested for endo, but nothing conclusive.. and she prescribed me tranexamic acid during my period.

      I’ve gone from filling my cup every hour or two, to dumping it twice a day and it isn’t quite full. Life changing!

      (Note on dose: make sure your doc checks on the body weight dosing – I take 3 pills 3x a day during my period, related to weighing around 240lbs.)

      Hope this helps some folks!

  19. K*

    I recently moved to a new area of my office building and have a new cube neighbor. My issue: she has soup everyday. And she slurps really loudly. I have a really visceral reaction to hearing people chew/slurp, like I’ve yelled at my dad to close his mouth when he eats. My usual solution is to either just go for a walk to get coffee or plug in my headphones. Does anyone else have this kind of reaction to people eating loudly?

    1. blink14*

      Two different people in my work area scrape silverware against bowls EVERY morning, and it drives me nuts. I usually try to take a short walk around the floor, go to the bathroom, etc. When I have to be at my desk or it goes on for a long time, I tell myself to breathe through every scrape and it will be over soon. Literally one of the most annoying sounds to me!

      1. K*

        She also does the silverware scraping. She also eats it out of a big mug that she thumps on the desk when she puts it down. Commiseration.

      2. Boop*

        Hah–my coworker eats at their desk nearby and some days I just want to stomp over and be like “WHY THE @%^* ARE YOU THROWING YOUR DAMN FORK ONTO YOUR PLATE EVERY TIME YOU PUT IT DOWN. STOP. IT.” But I know that’s crazy, so I didn’t. Yesterday I decided to put my soup in an actual bowl instead of heating it in my usual tupperware (because cancer? I think?) and I was driving MYSELF crazy with the damn spoon in the damn bowl in this damn echoey office. Today it was back to soup in a tupperware.

        1. blink14*

          I’ve pretty much totally switched over to glass containers when I’m going to be reheating something at work (although I drive and wouldn’t want to lug that around on a longer commute), but I use plastic utensils only at work. You win some, you lose some on that with the plastic use, but it doesn’t make that terrible noise!

    2. Miss Ames*

      I feel your pain! I am in the US and there was a guy from China who would eat hunched over his food, slurping loudly and chewing loudly – this would be every time he ate. It was probably culturally the norm for him, but I did feel it was disgusting. Fortunately I did not work near him and I was only exposed to this during group meals we had on occasion (makes me think, if that is how he ate in a group setting, imagine how he ate when he was alone!). There isn’t anything you can do here other than what you’ve been doing, either leaving or putting in earbuds. Hang in there!!

      1. Goose Lavel*

        I’d prefer this over the china dude at my last job who would come into the bathroom, cover one nostril with a finger and proceed to hock his snot into the sink next to me while I was washing my hands.

        And yes, he would leave without rinsing the sink.

        1. Yuck!*

          This may be the grossest thing I ever read on this site. You should have yelled at him and made a big deal out of it.

          1. Really?*

            Yeah…I’d say referring to someone in this manner is just as gross as what is being complained about. Also what the heck does the person’s race (“Chinese dude,” not “china dude”) have to do with what you’re complaining about? Other than sounding super racist, I mean.

            1. Lady Russell's Turban*

              His country of origin is relevant here because slurping, chewing loudly, sniffling, spitting on the floor (and then rubbing it around with your foot) were all common and acceptable behaviors in China, at least when I lived in a provincial capitol in the 1980s. Things were somewhat better (from an American perspective) among the middle class international business people with whom I worked in Beijing in the early 2000s, but when out among the general population things were pretty much as they had ever been.

              When I lived in Japan, the sniffling grossed me out but then I learned that blowing one’s nose in front of others is considered rude and disgusting, especially if eating. While I can’t bring myself to sniffle, even now I excuse myself to go away from people if I need to blow my nose.

              I bike and backpack so the finger-to-the-nose blow is common among my friends when we are on the trail, but I would be pretty shocked if someone did that in a public or office restroom. At least the guy isn’t emptying his pee cup all over the dishes.

      2. Llama Face!*

        FYI per my Chinese (from China) friend you really are supposed to slurp noodles/soup to show you enjoy your food. She tells me when I visit her in China that I’ll have to get over my Canadian silent eating customs. Lol. But she also adopts the Canadian style of eating when she is in Canada which I much appreciate since I also have food noises sensitivity.

    3. JBPL*

      I have a major issue with that! I don’t know if there’s anything polite you can really say as a peer, though. I usually end up doing a “It’s not your fault, but I have a problem with mouth sounds” if someone brings up my sudden and somewhat panicked departure. Headphones are great if they drown out the noise. Good luck!

    4. Jimming*

      Yes. I work from home mostly but every now and then when I go into the office one of my coworkers has chips and dip. Which wouldn’t be too bad except she chews with her mouth open. Yuck.

      1. Anon for this*

        Adults who chew with their mouths open (or have bad table manners in general) should be exported to Mars.

        1. Nanc*

          Nah, the barkeep on Mars don’t want no trouble in his place, and bad manners would be trouble. (Sparks Nevada, Marshal on Mars fans know what I’m talking about!)

        2. That Girl From Quinn's House*

          If you have any orthodontic issues (TMJ, misaligned bite, etc.) it’s really easy to chew with your mouth open. Not everyone can get those fixed, TMJ in particular because it involves having your jaw wired shut for a month or two.

        3. Foreign Octopus*

          One of my parents’ friends is in his 70s and he chews with his mouth open. Every time I have dinner with him it makes me want to claw my eyes out. I can’t stand it, but I can’t say anything to him because he’s a friend of my parents and I don’t want to me that person.

    5. peachie*

      I do (misophonia, which sounds like it might be the case for you?) and I do not have a good solution. I’m in the same position, actually — new(ish) office mate who triggers it for some reason (thankfully, it doesn’t happen with everyone). I haven’t said anything to her because (a) non-confrontational, but mostly (b) I almost exclusively eat in my office and I’d like to keep doing that, so I don’t have standing to say “stop doing that,” especially because she’s not actually doing anything wrong or bad.

    6. PleaseBeQuiet*

      Yes. There is a disordered called misiphonia. Earplugs are my best friend, I keep them with me at all times. The other day there was construction going on outside my window and the repetitive hammering was making me angry– like I wanted to punch someone angry. I had to put earplugs in, and then I put on earphones with white noise playing. Although I could still hear the hammering it dampened it enough so I could calm down.
      I am pretty sure my grandma had it too. She is now 95 and I keep telling her she needs to get a hearing aid and she snapped at me and said “It is the first time in 90 years I don’t want to kill people for breathing. I rather be deaf.” HAHAHA So I guess I have that to look forward to!

      I buy a big jar of foam earplugs at CostCo and keep some in my purse, on my bedside table, on my desk.
      Good luck!

    7. WellRed*

      My god my boss and her goddamn gum chewing. She snaps, it cracks it, really works it over in her mouth all juicy and crunchy and wet and gross. I sometimes have to yell “gum” so she dials it down a bit.
      She’s otherwise a delightful, well mannered person.

      1. BeQuiet*

        Just reading your description of the gum sapping made me cringe! I would murder someone.

        1. Watry*

          And I said to him “You pop that gum one more time…” and he did. So I took the shotgun off the wall and I fired two warning shots…into his head. He had it comin’!

          –Chicago, Cell Block Tango

    8. Tiffany GK*

      Ugh! I deal with something similar! Every single day, right around 12:30, someone near me (I’m in a cubicle farm, too) eats something in one of those glass reusable containers with a metal spoon. It honestly sounds like they’re just banging the spoon around in there. I can’t take it! I’ve started eating lunch in another location, and/or planning to not work at my desk during that time. Because it seriously drives me crazy! No suggestion, but I definitely commiserate!

      1. blink14*

        No no no! The metal on the glass I cannot take! Also, like how much left are you really getting with all that scraping anyways?

    9. Kelly AF*

      Ooooh yeah. As soon as someone near me breaks out the chips/carrot sticks/celery my headphones go right in.

    10. FondantFancy*

      I get this sooo badly too: the person on the opposite desk ate ALL DAY. ALL DAY. And every single bite had a lip-smacking clack sound to it. A normally polite person, I would have to stop myelf from jumping up and yelling at her. My reaction was fierce. In the end I never said anything (I couldn’t work out a way to politely deal with it, and eat at the desk myself) so I changed desks as soon as one came up. I read about misophonia at the time and now think of myself as an occasional psychopath, and smacky food sounds bring it out.

  20. Anax*

    How much medical information is ‘too much’?

    I went home early yesterday, and folks were asking how I was doing – thing is, I wasn’t exactly sick. My hip decided to partially dislocate in the night, and it was pressing on a nerve when I sat in my desk chair.

    (Probably Ehlers-Danlos syndrome. Yes, it hurt a lot.)

    Is that sort of thing TMI to share, in the amount of detail above? I don’t want to make my coworkers uncomfortable, but having dealt with chronic illness for a long time, it can be hard to know where the ‘normal’ lines are.

    1. AndersonDarling*

      As long as you aren’t giving details on bodily fluids or BMs, you are okay. I’m generally cautious about sharing details, but I’ve found that some of my co-workers have had similar experiences that they can share. It really helps when you are going through something scary and they can tell you they or someone they know went through the same thing and turned out fine. I’ve also gotten connections to great doctors by mentioning health issues at work.

      1. Anax*

        Awesome. Thank you!

        I haven’t met anyone with similar experiences – it’s a pretty rare condition – but sharing has sometimes been helpful. At least everyone knows why I don’t want to do athletic activities!

        1. JessP*

          Hi! You have now, at least online! Hypermobile Ehlers-Danlos Syndrome here. I answered your actual question in more detail below :)

        2. KoiFeeder*

          Hi, I’m here too! It’s nice to know that someone who has a job deals with this too, I’ve had people tell me that I can’t [do accommodation thing like wear a wrist brace during written tests] in the “real” world, so this is kinda reassuring.

          1. JessP*

            Ah, the real world. I’ve heard similar, but I’ve also been out of school and working for a while, and I’m not sure I’ll ever find it ;)

            There are very few work situations I can think of that would not allow you to wear a brace—maybe certain types of machinery where there’s a hazard of it being caught, or maybe some infection control stuff?

            But no, generally you just ask for the accommodations you need and if your employer is reasonable you can work something out. I have a lot of flexibility (ha!) in my job, so randomly stepping out to see my PT or working from home to nurse an injury haven’t been a big deal. I also show up in weird braces/splints or with a different mobility aid seemingly at random, so if there’s someone I’m meeting with that I don’t see often, I might email and include something like “ I have a chronic issue flaring and will be in my wheelchair this afternoon; are we still set to meet in your office or should I book us a conference room?” so they’re not shocked and concerned about my injury.

            Let me know if there’s any other real world accommodations you’d want reassurance about :)

            1. KoiFeeder*

              Well, due to the rest of my health issues, heavy machinery and infectious diseases are not likely to be in my future, so that is exceptionally reassuring! The other thing is existing while autistic, and I’ve already sent Alison a letter detailing all of that, so for politeness’ sake I’ll refrain from reposting here. But thank you so much!

    2. Not Maeby But Surely*

      I don’t think that’s too much to share. Sounds painful! Sorry you had to deal with that.

      1. Anax*

        Thanks! It wasn’t much fun, but I’m doing much better today; I had to lay down for a few hours until my muscles relaxed.

        Hips are hard because there’s so much muscle – they come out a lot less often than my fingers or wrists, but they’re harder to fix when they do.

    3. Ali G*

      You don’t have to tell them anything!
      CW: Are you feeling better?
      You: Oh yes, thanks for asking!
      That’s it. It doesn’t matter if you weren’t ill – you still needed to go home. They don’t need to know.

      1. Anax*

        I definitely don’t need to, and I wasn’t feeling pressured. We were just having friendly small talk, and my “normal meter” is a little off in this regard, so I wanted to make sure I wasn’t inadvertently being a jerk.

        Honestly, I think “weird joints” has a lot less stigma than other illnesses – most people just want to see the party tricks really flexible folks can do. I’m a lot quieter about the issues which ARE stigmatized, like the details of my PTSD.

    5. Not an Exhibit at the Petting Zoo*

      It’s not TMI, but it’s also not necessary. Unless people press for details, they’re probably just looking for “I’m feeling better, thank you for asking!” or, if they’re asking why you’re leaving, “I’m not well enough to work right now but I’ll be fine later. Nothing to worry about!”.

      I have chronic pain too, so I sympathize. My experience is that I haven’t damaged my prospects by being open about it, but I also definitely haven’t done myself any favours. People don’t really get it unless they experience it too.

    6. Rusty Shackelford*

      I think anything ranging from “I’m better today, thanks” to “it was a flare-up of a musculoskeletal issue, but I’m better now” is perfectly appropriate. Keep in mind that giving too much detail might not only make coworkers uncomfortable (although I don’t think your details are particularly discomforting, at least not to me), but it might also lead to “helpful” suggestions that you might prefer to avoid.

    7. Turtlewings*

      While I don’t think you should ever feel *obligated* to give medical details, a pinched nerve that makes sitting painful isn’t the kind of thing I would think of as TMI, in the sense of “eep, I’d rather I didn’t know that.” (Counter-example, for clarity: if a coworker needed to go home because of diarrhea, I would feel so much compassion for them but also not be grateful for the mental image. “I have a stomachache” or just “I’m not feeling well” would have been sufficient.) Since Ehlers-Danlos doesn’t involve embarrassing body functions (as far as I’m aware?) and it might be helpful to have coworkers understand the difficulties you’re facing, I wouldn’t call it TMI to share that. If you don’t want to get bogged down in details, or make people uncomfortable with reacting to the seriousness of the illness, saying “I was having a flare-up of a nerve issue, it happens sometimes” probably communicates just enough to be helpful.

      1. Turtlewings*

        Ah, looks like I misinterpreted the nature of Ehlers-Danlos a bit, I guess it’s not exactly a nerve issue? But that level of vagueness is what I mean. (Also, sucks that you have to deal with that, I’m so sorry!)

      2. Anax*

        No embarrassing body functions for me, thankfully! I just have really loose joints that often slide out of their sockets – usually not a huge deal, but bad days can be pretty painful.

        I could tell some stories that would probably cross a line, but I try to avoid the more upsetting details!

        When I was in high school, for instance, it felt like my joints were sprained all the time. I would have to crawl around the house sometimes because it hurt too much to stand, or I would just fall down when I tried. I still have scars on my hands, because I would dig my nails in to get through the pain of gym class.

        That’s the kind of thing I think would probably cross a line – folks generally don’t need that level of detail.

        But the kind of sharing I mentioned above can be useful sometimes – it helps folks understand what’s going on, and … honestly, prevents many well-meaning suggestions like ‘here’s a great place to hike’ that sting because I just can’t do them right now. I’d love to be more physically active, but it’s not possible right now.

      3. JessP*

        It can! EDS is a disorder of all connective tissue, not just joints, so our insides are often too stretchy too! That means many of us have a variety of more embarrassing or gruesome symptoms, anything from easy skin tearing or bruising, to IBD type symptoms, gastroparesis, interstitial cystitis, to organ ruptures and prolapse. Autonomic dysfunction is also involved, so we may pass out randomly or have trouble regulating our temperature, etc.

        To bring it back to work, in many cases EDS sounds horrifying but also novel enough to be interesting discussion, so we need to find a balanced response that conveys “I am not in any acute state of illness or dying, but have need to be somewhere else to deal with this” without freaking out coworkers to the point that they think we can’t do our jobs or we end up comforting them about our problem? So that may be something to be aware of if anyone reading has a coworker w an illness (or other situation for which you may express sympathy)–try not to go overboard with the sympathy to the point that you’re requiring emotional labor from the person you are trying to be sympathetic to.

        1. Anax*

          Yeah, temperature regulation is the bane of my existence right now. I don’t have a lot of gastrointestinal issues, which I’m grateful for, but I know a lot of folks also do.

          That’s exactly the issue! “It IS kind of a big deal, but also I’m not dying or anything, and I chose a sedentary career specifically so it would rarely be affected, I can do my job fine.”

          I always feel guilty when I accidentally freak people out; it’s such an uncomfortable feeling.

    8. Lily Rowan*

      I think you could just say “I was having an issue with my hip,” if you want. Or just answer the question they asked and say “Much better today, thank you!”

    9. The Man, Becky Lynch*

      Ouch ouch ouch!

      TMI tends to mean “gross” in most situations. Some people are going to think any information is “too much” as well, so they’re the outlier, keep that in mind.

      If you just say “I have a thing where my hip can dislocate and it causes me pain to sit!” they’ll go “Oh man, ouch ouch ouch, I’m glad you’re feeling better now though.”

    10. JessP*

      I’m a clinical librarian–so my coworkers and I like talking about weird medical stuff–but I also have EDS, among other things, so sometimes that stuff is me. In our library, normal would be “Oh, just a hip subluxation pinching a nerve or something–totally fine, but need to work from my recliner today/didn’t get much sleep/can’t drive on it/want to pop in with pt etc.” I’m pretty sure I’ve called my boss with a “I had something pop in my knee, I need to get the swelling down enough to put on pants before I can come in. Working remotely until lunch-ish”
      We love medical information, though, that’s kind of our whole deal.

      For places where it might be too much, I wasn’t as comfy, or didn’t want to scar coworkers, or just didn’t have the time/energy to explain the weird genetic disorder that my doctors barely understand, I might go with a “Much better, thanks!” Or “just need some rest, see you tomorrow” or “oh it’s just chronic stuff flaring, nothing to worry about”–something true but bland enough that most people wouldn’t have follow up questions.

      1. Anax*

        Oh hey, fellow connective-tissue-disorder person! :)

        I’m getting a formal diagnosis with the geneticist in two weeks, but my rheumatologist and PCP think hEDS is very likely. Thankfully, I moved to the Bay Area about a year ago; the docs back in my home state thought I was faking. -_- Most of my subluxations are pretty minor these days, but man, sometimes I feel like a junker car with parts falling off.

        That makes sense; I’ll share when it seems appropriate, then. My coworkers are awesome and friendly, so we do make quite a bit of small talk.

      2. KoiFeeder*

        At the risk of sounding presumption, your job sounds amazing on paper. You must’ve worked hard for it!

    11. CMart*

      That’s not “TMI” in the squeamish way people usually mean.

      As for just being more detail than is necessary I think it depends on your relationship with your coworkers. Some people legitimately don’t care to know beyond “I’m feeling better now, thanks” but others (me!) would be curious about the nature of what happened so they can be appropriately sympathetic.

      “My hip dislocated and hoo boy did it hurt. I’m better now though.” = wow that sounds awful poor you! + probably no need to follow up as it sounds like a one-off.

      “I rolled my chair into an unsheathed sword sticking out of my neighbor’s cubicle and had to go tend to the flesh wound. I’m still in pain but I’ll be fine in a couple weeks.” = wow, how intense!!! + whose sword was it, do we need to confiscate it?? + checking in with you to see how you’re doing/being sympathetic to you moving slowly to meetings over the next couple weeks.

      “Just a bad allergy flare up. This summer has been brutal.” = oh yeah, allergies are the worst.

    12. sunshyne84*

      It’s not the worse, but hip pain is the most I would share. The details aren’t necessary.

    13. That Girl From Quinn's House*

      I don’t think it’s TMI, but I used to work in fitness where discussing injury/conditions was part of the territory.

      As a coworker, though, one thing I do appreciate is a heads up if something is contagious/not contagious, so I know whether I need to double down on the Lysol wiping and handwashing or not.

    14. Yup, EDS*

      Much sympathy. I dislocated my hip turning over in bed once. Much sympathies but no advice except NSAIDs, Ice packsand perhaps taking a few days off to let the nerve endings calm down. Some times I need a prescription for resultant muscle spasms.

      1. Yup, EDS*

        didn’t read closely enough. Disclosing at work. I DO NOT tell people that I have EDS. I do not want them googling symptoms.
        What I say- I have a rare connective tissue disorder. Had a bad night- working from home today. Had a bad night- will just be in half-day until I can pick of my meds/see a doctor/grab some work then going home. Having trouble walking today…
        That is it.

      2. Anax*

        Yeah, that’s about what I end up doing – it’s a pain in the neck, especially when things spasm or pop out when I’m out and about! I hate feeling tied to the house, but it’s a little scary to go out alone. XP

    15. fhqwhgads*

      I don’t think this one is TMI, but if you want to keep it closer to the vest, I do think it’s fine if you wanted to be a bit more specific to distinguish between taking a sick day due to illness vs a sick day due to injury. You also don’t need to share anything if you don’t feel like it.

    16. It’s All Good*

      EDS is in my family. From sharing info with others, they have been diagnosed with EDS too! I hope you have a pain free week.

  21. New Manager Help*

    How can I address tensions between two staff I inherited?

    Both staff have had complaints that they are unapproachable.

    Some “Sally” examples: “I tried to ask Sally a question as she was leaving and she told me to read the project email” “I tried to get help from Sally, but she put up her finger, kept talking on the phone, then muted it and asked me to email her or come back in an hour after her meeting. I felt really dismissed!”

    Some “Karen” examples: “I was talking to Karen and she walked away letting a door shut in my face” “I didn’t appreciate Karen’s remark at the all hands moral meeting to ‘just do your job and it won’t be an issue’ when I suggested that leadership not send all staff corrective emails.”

    So as you can see, both have personality issues with staff.

    Karen is a self described, not here to make friends type. She is a new assistant clinical manager, promoted 3 years ago. I have seen a lot of improvement from her. I honestly don’t know how I could run the department without her. She is a clinical expert, patients love her, and good nurses are harder and harder to find. She also became adept at our new HR system when she felt Sally was not supporting staff on it enough. She works extremely hard, 60-70 hours a week, but gets overtime. When I give her extra work, she’ll make gruff comments like “whatever, guess I live here now” but she gets the job done and never gives up. As a nurse myself, I know just how valuable and difficult her work is.

    Sally is a non-management tech person, but has some oversight responsibilities that use to belong to Karen. A transfer from our parent company, it was Sally’s business plans and connections that gave us the capital to get the new system. She actually trained me on my budget and financial sheets and there are no personality issues there. Sally is actually sweet once you get to know her, but her direct speaking manner and unfamiliarity with nurse culture can rub people the wrong way. She is salaried and only works 45-50 hours a week but gets a lot done. I don’t know the details, but if she keeps a computer logged in, all of her reports run even if she is on vacation. But when staff mistakenly log her out when she is away, she gets pretty irritated and grumbles about days of extra work. However she does happily take on work I ask of her, and even volunteers to take on tasks that help the team.

    The big trouble started in April. Just as we were about to go live with the HR system, Sally’s appendix burst and she missed launch.

    During this time Karen and her staff really stepped up to pick up Sally’s slack. They never expected to have to handle the technical questions, but did well. Once Sally was back to work however, she found several process gaps and quickly dove in to fix them. It rubbed a lot of the nurse leadership the wrong way who felt Sally, having missed launch, didn’t have a right to tell them what to do.

    I see both sides, Sally was correct and improved our workflows, but she did not consider Karen’s feelings or acknowledge her staffs hard work.

    I’ve tried to bring them together to hash things out, but it always erupts quickly, usually with Karen making a snide remark about Sally’s work ethic, Sally getting defensive and going on about all she does for Karen before Karen blows a fuse and storms off. (Sally did take on a few tasks from Karen and her team, but it is her job now and Karen doesn’t appreciate having it thrown in her face).

    After yet another row, Sally told me that she is fed up and suspects Karen is poisoning the well. She pointed to a pattern of other staff bringing false complaints against her shortly after rows with Karen. I’ve been coaching Karen about not gossiping with staff, but Sally has no proof and I don’t think Karen is complaining about her to staff as much as Sally thinks. I also get tired of Sally coming to me the next day after these rows to point out her perspective on them. I wish she could be less sensitive and let it go like Karen.

    In the end I need them both in my department. How can I address this Karen and Sally problem?

    1. C*

      Sally doesn’t seem like a problem; her coworkers do. Maybe this is me not being familiar with work culture, but directing people to an email when she’s on her way out the door and paying attention to her phone conversation more than the person trying to interrupt her seems…good on her, not a great look for the people interrupting her. And “only” working 45-50 hours?

      And “slack” when Sally was out with a burst appendix? That’s an interesting choice of words, there. It sounds like Sally could use some coaching on soft skills and maybe being made aware of how much work others did while she was out on medical leave, but it doesn’t sound to me like she’s done anything except ruffle some feathers of people who felt like she needed to fawn over them a bit more when she got back, when she was most likely just focused on getting everything fixed as soon as possible.

      As for Karen, I’d find a way to maybe give her less work. 60-70 hours is a lot, even when you get paid for it, and she’s going to burn out. Sounds like she already is. She really has no right to criticize someone for not working as excessively as she does, particularly when they themselves don’t get paid extra for the privilege, so I would shut that kind of talk down.

      Really, it sounds to me like y’all are overworked, and it’s spilling over, and if you can advocate for more staff, I would do that, but it sounds like everyone has pretty unrealistic expectations for Sally to do all the things and be Miss Mary Sunshine, which kind of rubs me the wrong way (but I confess I identify with Sally in this regard, so take it for what it’s worth).

      1. MusicWithRocksInIt*

        I agree with all of this – I don’t see a single thing Sally did wrong. A lot of her answers look like something Ask A Manager would tell her to do if coworkers were always bothering her when she was on the phone or on her way out the door. Also – something needs to be really urgent to bother someone as they are walking out of work, and if the answer is in an email they already have then it is not only not urgent but RUDE.

      2. Bunny Girl*

        That was my read on it too. I’d like to think of myself as generally pretty helpful, but if someone asks for my help when I’m on my way out the door or I’m in the middle of a phone call, then yes I probably wouldn’t respond the same way. I do think more staff might be helpful. I know that’s really hard to justify sometimes but even some part time help might go a long way.

        1. peanutbutty*

          Am grateful to the replies saying the Sally examples seems perfectly reasonable, as that is exactly how I would respond in those situations and reading the post I was starting to second-guess myself and whether everyone secretly hated me ;-)

        1. Fortitude Jones*

          Right. A regular work week for a full-time position is 40 hours. 45-50 is a lot. The only time I worked that much was when I was a claims adjuster during hurricane season.

      4. SoGladIt'sFriday*

        +1 on this. Sally’s responses to rude coworkers are reasonable. Karen sounds high maintenance, probably because she’s burned out from working too much. Your whole department sounds pretty miserable and needs a reboot.

      5. Jules the 3rd*

        Yeah, maybe we’re all missing something from ‘nurse culture’, but Sally’s behavior is ‘normal professional’. You may have the opportunity to set some culture tone here in a constructive way. Maybe set up an ‘available / not available’ signal on your door, and encourage Sally to do the same, and then encourage other employees to respect that? Prioritize emails for Sally?

        I know budgets are tight on hospitals and it’s hard to find nurses, but see if there’s any way to lighten Karen’s load, and make sure your bosses give her cash bonuses and actual vacation time, or she’s going to burn out.

        1. zora*

          But, I think the context is important here. Yes, Sally is being direct and what lots of people would do when being approached while on the phone.
          BUT, she is brought is as kind of an ‘outsider’ to the nurse team (not a nurse, a tech person) AND handling process improvements, which can be frustrating in any job, but especially a high-pressure, fast-paced job like nursing. It is reasonable to have part of her job be smoothing ruffled feathers, and acknowledging that sometimes this is hard and it sucks, but she really is trying to do her best for them.

          We just went through a huge tech migration at work, and the thing that is making people the most frustrated is that none of the emails from IT or management are acknowledging that some of us really did have major technical problems that made it impossible for us to do work for multiple days. We understand it had to happen regardless, but the emails are really dismissive and people are angry that we are being treated like we are just whining, and not that we had actual valid complaints.

          1. sum of two normal distributions*

            “A transfer from our parent company, it was Sally’s business plans and connections that gave us the capital to get the new system.”

            Without Sally, they wouldn’t have the system. This system, if Sally is spearheading it, has little to do with nursing itself then and it’s good Sally is fixing it up after noticing problems, esp if people are expected to use it efficiently. Not to be rude, but these people are hiding behind “we’re nurses” to be a clique and act childish. This has nothing to do with nursing as a field.

            Re: your example with the tech migration at your company. I am not in tech but you have to understand those tech people were getting a lot of emails about this migration. A migration that the people you are emailing probably had little to do with. Are you certain their response was dismissive or combined with your frustration came off as dismissive? They can’t fix your issue immediately, they themselves have to navigate the new software, and they have bosses mad that the rollout isn’t perfect (they aren’t always) – it’s not that you complaint isn’t valid, it’s that they got it many times and are fed up. Is it ok? No, but that’s what I would get from it.

      6. Box of Kittens*

        Yes to all of this! And FWIW, you’d think nurses, of all people, would be sympathetic to why Sally was out. It’s not like she went on vacation; her appendix burst!

        1. Librarian of SHIELD*

          Right? That’s what I can’t wrap my mind around. “Well, we covered for you while you were having an extremely painful and terrifying medical emergency, so now we get to make false complaints about your work ethic and spread rumors about you behind your back, and you’re not allowed to complain” is not a good look.

        2. zora*

          Unfortunately, it’s a common problem for healthcare to have a bad culture around being out for medical reasons. There is lots of pressure to work when sick, so people don’t always have the best habits around work/life balance, and even medical emergencies can get minimized.

        3. ..Kat..*

          My guess is the nurses wanted to be thanked for their extra work before being told what they did wrong. (I am guessing Sally didn’t say thank you based on LW’s description of her.) If these are bedside nurses, they did not have the time to take on any of Sally’s work – much less a massive launch. As a bedside ICU nurse myself, I can tell you that I am on my feet all day, often don’t get breaks and/or lunches. And, if these are bedside nurses, they are used to people expecting them to allow their phone calls to be interrupted (when I am on the phone, it is very common to have a physician or nurse walk up to me and start talking at me – and expect me to deal with it).

          This is in response to Jules the 3rd’s comment on nursing culture.

          Also, I am really surprised that the launch was not delayed if they were having nurses pick up tech work.

    2. Peacock*

      Some “Sally” examples: “I tried to ask Sally a question as she was leaving and she told me to read the project email” “I tried to get help from Sally, but she put up her finger, kept talking on the phone, then muted it and asked me to email her or come back in an hour after her meeting. I felt really dismissed!”

      I don’t know if I’ve misread your explanation, but this is not unreasonable behaviour on Sally’s part. It’s the question asker who is being unreasonable in asking Sally a work related question when she is clearly on her way out of the office and has presumably turned off her computer. It’s the person interrupting Sally’s phone call who is being unreasonable, it’s really rude to interrupt someone on a phone call, and holding a finger up is a perfectly acceptable non-verbal way of saying “wait” when you can’t talk. Sally is not at fault in either of these examples.

      Karen, on the other hand, sounds like an unprofessional asshole.

      1. Ali G*

        Agree – if that is the extent of the complaints about Sally, you need to shut that down. Those are completely reasonable responses in Sally’s position. If I were Sally, I would feel pretty unsupportive. My bet is you don’t intend you actions to be taken that way.

    3. ICantThinkOfACoolNameToday*

      Based on the examples you gave with complaints against Sally, I’d say you have a Karen problem. Karen jumped on her when she was leaving and she’d already given the answer in an email. Unless she said it in a snotty fashion, Sally’s response was fine. The second one is even worse – unless there is something unique about your environment, it’s super, super rude to interrupt someone on the phone, presumably in a meeting, and expect instant help. And the attitude about Sally “missing the launch” — because she had a burst appendix??? WTF? She can’t help it! It’s not like she was on vacation. And it sounds like even if she wasn’t there at launch, she did a ton of work and planning to make it a success. I’d think differently if the errors she found were nit picks, but it sounds like she found real issues. Why are they giving her attitude? I think you’ve imbibed so much of the current office culture that you don’t see that it’s really toxic. From your own example, Karen starts the crap with snide remarks about Sally’s work ethic — she’s not entering into these “hash it out” meetings in good faith, and you should shut that down. Immediately! I’m feeling super bad for Sally right now. . .

      1. Jules the 3rd*

        I didn’t read those complaints as Karen talking about Sally or Sally talking about Karen, I read them as other employees complaining about both Karen and Sally. But I agree, I don’t think it’s a Sally problem.

        1. Librarian of SHIELD*

          With the context given later in the story, I assumed it was Karen’s social group complaining about Sally out of an unhealthy overabundance of loyalty to Karen. I’d be happy to be wrong about that, but that’s how I read it.

    4. Friday Funsies*

      I’m truly having a hard time seeing what Sally did wrong here. If someone interrupted me while I was on the phone, I would also ask them to come back later or refer them to a place where they could get the answers they need. You admitted that Karen has made unkind comments about Sally in your presence (which leads to an unproductive conversation), so it’s not particularly hard to believe that Karen would gossip when you’re not there. She’s coming to you for help because speaking one-on-one with Karen only leads to being insulted, and you seem to be dismissing her claims entirely. And who can blame Sally for missing work for a medical condition that literally would have killed her if left untreated? I must not be understanding the situation, because no where does Sally appear to have misstepped.

      I understand that Sally may not fit with the typical nurse culture of your workplace. However, do you think there may be any truth to her complaints?

    5. The Man, Becky Lynch*

      They both seem overworked and stressed out, these are classic behaviors for people on a tight schedule!

      This is healthcare and long hours and stress is a given, so yeah I kind of snorted at the idea of cutting anyone’s hours back, that doesn’t happen when you’re in healthcare.

      They need to be told that this is a personality conflict and you appreciate that they’re different but that there’s nothing that’s happening that needs to “change”. You may lose one or both in the end no matter what you do, honestly. That’s the rub here. Most clinical staff end up in this position.

    6. MattersSeen*

      The reasons you listed for Sally being hard to work with aren’t actual reasons. Karen sounds like she is causing the issues. Karen obviously isn’t letting it go. She stormed out in a meeting. She rudely interrupts Sally and is making Sally the object of office gossip. Why should Sally care about Karen’s feelings by doing her normal job? And how if stating facts “throwing” it into Karen’s face? It sounds incredibly bias on your part.

    7. CatCat*

      I think you have a Karen problem and a problem potentially with her associates. The description sounds like Sally is doing her job and having reasonable professional boundaries while Karen is pushing her buttons, gossiping, and just being rude. Stop trying to bring them together to “hash it out.” Also, Sally pointed out a pattern of false complaints after being in a dispute with Karen? Well… are they false complaints and is there a pattern? Also, when Sally came back, people didn’t want her to tell them what to do with the system she is in charge of? How did you address that?

      If Karen is toxic, but you value her more than Sally, recognize that Sally may end up leaving because of this.

      1. The New Wanderer*

        I agree. Sally is not a problem here. Especially if the complaints against Sally are “I interrupted Sally on her way out and she didn’t drop everything to give me an answer personally that was already in my email” and “I interrupted Sally while she was clearly on the phone and she didn’t immediately prioritize me over her phone conversation.” Those sound… just so petty.

        Karen has too much work. Maybe she’s managing to do a good job for the time being but 60-70 hours is unsustainable in the long term – I know that’s industry-specific and the expected culture for health care, but it’s objectively bad for anyone’s personal health and performance. Maybe that’s causing her to be a short-tempered jerk and maybe not, but it should change regardless. And so should expectations of Karen’s treatment of others.

        1. Fortitude Jones*

          It’s probably a combination of her workload and her former job responsibilities being offloaded to Sally, a non-nurse. This entire thing sounds like pure, unadulterated jealousy on Karen’s part, and she’s leading the Means Girls crew against Sally. If I were Sally, I’d find a new job because management is seeing the negative behavior exhibited by Karen (her endless sniping at Sally and low blows about work ethics) and is doing nothing about it. OP is allowing workplace bullying to go unchecked – I wouldn’t stay somewhere I didn’t feel supported.

          1. tangerineRose*

            I’d also be looking for a job that wanted 40 good hours instead of thinking that 50 hours wasn’t much.

            Also, what did you expect Sally to do when she is on the phone, in a meeting and is being interrupted? Should she hang up on the meeting? Should she mute it and answer the interrupter and hope she doesn’t miss anything important in the meeting? Should she ask the others in the meeting to stop while she talks to the interrupter? OK, I might have told someone to IM me, and I’d try to get back to them, but that’s partially because most of the meetings I’ve been in have a bunch of wasted time.

            1. tangerineRose*

              Plus, if I were out with a medical emergency, I’d expect my co-workers not to act like I was off loafing.

      2. Librarian of SHIELD*

        I agree. No more “hash it out” meetings. Tell Karen that you expect her to behave civilly and respectfully in the workplace. She doesn’t have to like all of her coworkers, but she does need to treat them all with basic levels of respect.

        And apologize to Sally for not taking her concerns seriously. She needs to know she can come to you when her coworkers are treating her as poorly as they have been.

    8. LCL*

      Karen has too much work and she is mostly at fault here. But her reactions are understandable. She’s working 60-70 hours per week and gets sh&* done. Anything that slows her down and interferes with that she won’t tolerate. KAREN IS USING THE METHODS THAT HAVE WORKED TO DATE. If you want things to get better, take a hard look at her duties and work with her to come up with a plan to delegate some things. If you want things to get worse, make an executive decision and reassign some of her work now and tell her she’s not allowed any more overtime, except working the floor/direct patient care.

    9. Antilles*

      Fair warning: You’re not going to like this breakdown. I’m going to point out things that jumped out at me:
      1.) As others have mentioned, your examples of Sally’s behavior both seem perfectly fine. C and Peacock covered this very well, so I’m not going to rehash their comments, but they’re both right; Sally is not the issue.
      2.) I take issue with you using the phrase that Sally “only” works 45-50 hours a week. If she’s salaried, by definition, you’re paying for around 40 hours a week. Okay, fine most companies 40 is not exactly 40, but if your staffing is such that working 45-50 hours a week is worth of “only” (and other employees complaining about ‘work ethic’), then you’re understaffed.
      3.) Sally running her reports on vacation actually isn’t a good thing. Your procedures should be set up in a way that allow people to take real vacations. You should be able to tell Sally that she doesn’t need to run reports while on vacation and Sally should be able to 100% trust that she can do that and not return to a building on fire. If that’s not the case, then you-the-manager need to figure out why and fix that issue.
      4.) The phrase “pick up slack” almost implies that Sally left the team in a bad spot by having a medical emergency. I know you might not have meant it that way, but that’s a really poor choice of words and one that would likely infuritate Sally if you used that sort of phrasing.
      5.) As for the nurse leadership being mad about Sally coming in and fixing the problem, that’s also off-base. The fact that your staff’s response was to shoot the messenger rather than listen to the message is pretty bad. It’s also worrisome that Sally came in days/weeks afterwards and almost immediately found some flaws in the system that nobody else caught.
      6.) In your description of the meetings, you say that “Karen makes a snide remark about Sally’s work ethic, then Sally gets defensive”. This is because you’re leaving Sally to fend for herself and not telling Karen to cut it out with the personal attacks. If Karen has a legitimate work reason about why Sally’s work is not sufficient, that’s one thing, but this sounds more like just a generic “well, if only Sally worked harder…” with no real backup.
      7.) You say “I don’t think Karen is complaining about her to staff as much as Sally thinks”. This sounds like you agree that Karen is complaining some. There is no acceptable level of sniping at other co-workers. I don’t understand what you mean when you say “coaching”, but there’s no real “coaching” involved here, just a straightforward “this is not acceptable, you will cut this crap out, now.”

      1. Jules the 3rd*

        3) Sally’s probably got automatic scripts running on her computer to run the reports. As an IT person, she should have a computer that no one else is touching.
        1, 2, 4, 5: Yes. All this, 100%
        6: I missed that in first read, yeah, ok, OP has a Karen problem, but it’s because Karen’s working 60hrs / week vs Sally’s 45. Karen’s position is not reasonable, and OP needs to shut it down NOW. Soothe Karen’s feathers with bonuses and real actual time off, and try to offload work. Ask around if there’s anything that the Nurse Assistants (NAs) can take over.

        Also, based on my friend the hospital nurse (MFtN), check whether your NAs are pulling their weight. MFtN says that their hospital doesn’t manage the NAs well (fear of shortage) which bubbles up to extra work and stress for the nurses. Adding in 1 – 2 effective NAs might be an inexpensive way to reduce Karen’s workload.

        1. ..Kat..*

          Karen is a clinical manager. Nurse assistants do bedside/patient duties. They would not be available to reduce Karen’s work load.

          1. Jules the 3rd*

            Karen’s an assistant CM, and seems to be patient-facing (“patients love her”). If they can use NAs to free up RNs, the RNs might be able to do some paperwork or patient support that’s been shuffled onto Karen. New Manager needs to stop adding to Karen’s workload and actively hunt for ways to reduce it, even if that requires giving tasks to people who won’t do them as perfectly as Karen does.

            Only New Manager can know what Karen’s being asked to do, but sometimes looking at the really big picture can help with solutions.

      2. Librarian*

        I don’t think Sally is working while she’s on vacation. It sounds like Sally logs into a computer before she goes on vacation and she has some kind of automated script or program associated with her user account that runs on a schedule whether she’s there or not. The problem Sally has is that if someone signs her out of that computer, the scheduled jobs don’t run and she has to manually retrieve all the data and information to produce back-dated reports when she comes back from vacation. This could set her behind schedule for days.

        If these automated reports are a huge deal and essential, then I’d designate a computer in a locked office (maybe in the manager’s office) for Sally to log into before she goes on vacation to ensure the reports always run as scheduled.

    10. LadyByTheLake*

      One more “you have a Karen and others problem, not a Sally problem” comment. It’s pretty clear that your problem is Karen and it does sound like Karen is stirring the pot. I’m not seeing any issues with Sally, so maybe it would be a good idea to reflect on why you are seeing it as a mutual problem rather than a Karen issue.

      1. zora*

        OP did mention that when Sally came back from her medical emergency “she did not consider Karen’s feelings or acknowledge her staffs hard work.”
        This is a valid complaint. Of course it’s not her fault that her appendix burst, but in general, she is coming in as an “outsider” (a tech role from the parent company, not a nurse) and it’s understandable that that would cause some friction and frustration from the team of nurses. It is reasonable to ask her to work a little harder and smoothing things over, showing appreciation and acknowledging that asking people to change things in a very difficult, high-pressure job, is sometimes a pain.

        1. MusicWithRocksInIt*

          “Once Sally was back to work however, she found several process gaps and quickly dove in to fix them. It rubbed a lot of the nurse leadership the wrong way who felt Sally, having missed launch, didn’t have a right to tell them what to do.”

          If I found some process gaps and fixed them, and my coworks felt that I didn’t have the right to fix actual problems that they missed because I had a medical emergency? No, I am not gonna tiptoe though the tulips with Karen’s feelings. It sounds like she’s not acknowledging their hard work because she got back, some things were wrong, she fixed them and people are saying she’s not allowed to?

          It’s not ok to label someone in your team as ‘other’ just because they have a different role or training than you do, or to make them an outsider who has to work twice as hard. ‘You need to be super extra nice to people who are mean to you and treat you differently’ is not ok to ask someone.

          1. zora*

            But she’s the technical person, the OP said that other people jumped in on something they weren’t necessarily expecting or trained to do. So, it’s expected that she would come back and find some things that weren’t ideal and had to be fixed. It’s not “ok” for people to treat someone differnetly because they are an outsider, but it happens in some professions where there are different backgrounds/cultures, and hospitals/nursing is one of those.

            I’m not saying that Karen and the others don’t ALSO need to be talked to about cutting it out, and treating Sally with respect. But I think Sally also has to realize that part of her job is going to be overcoming her outsider status and showing the nurses she does respect them and appreciate how hard their jobs are.

            1. Librarian of SHIELD*

              This is BS. It just is.

              Yes, Sally comes from a different educational background. She’s not a nurse. But it’s not her job to do any nursing. She is a technician, and her job is to do the technical things. It’s ridiculous for a group of nurses to resent their coworker for having the appropriate training for her job duties.

              And as for not thanking them properly when she came back, medical emergencies are stressful. Coming back to work after missing something important that you didn’t expect to miss is stressful. Finding out that things weren’t working properly on top of that would also be stressful. Should Sally have thanked the team for stepping up and trying? Yeah, she should have. But does her failure to thank them as effusively as they would have liked give them license to treat her the way they’ve been treating her? Absolutely not.

              1. Bostonian*

                I wouldn’t even go that far. I f I had a medical emergency, the last thing on my mind coming back to work would be other people’s feelings about it.

            2. tangerineRose*

              “But I think Sally also has to realize that part of her job is going to be overcoming her outsider status” Um, no. If Sally is treated like that, she’s probably going to find somewhere else to work. Is there some initiation process required to work with nurses? Why? I get that working as a nurse is a very tough job, but that doesn’t give them the right to be mean to Sally.

            3. sum of two normal distributions*

              “But I think Sally also has to realize that part of her job is going to be overcoming her outsider status and showing the nurses she does respect them and appreciate how hard their jobs are.”

              This is patently false. It’s not Sally’s job at all to make her colleagues (and they are her colleagues despite her not being a nurse and them not being tech people) treat her as part of the team. Karen ultimately has a case of the hurt feelings and there are probably reasons related to her 70 hr work weeks that explain why she’s acting the way she is. All hospitals have service culture guidelines that explicitly state we all have to work towards the mission of the hospital and how to act around each other and patients. The problem in hospitals, esp extra dysfunctional ones, is this very high-school clique mentality and “well, I am X job so I only respect X people.” It’s very dangerous in a patient care context.

            4. Avasarala*

              Do nurses really need appreciation from the tech person in order to do their jobs and behave professionally? Because that sounds like the nurses are motivated by feelings not duty and that’s not in line with what I’ve heard about nurses. Do they also need to be appreciated by the cleaning staff, and by the building maintenance staff and the security guard and everyone else who does a different job than them?

              And do you think the nurses need to show Sally that they respect HER and appreciate how hard HER job is?

        2. tamarack and fireweed*

          It sounds to me that Sally’s return to work was mismanaged.

          The manager, possibly the OP, didn’t recognize that Sally would be in a very complicated position, given that she had to miss an important launch and other people stepped up to get a piece of work out that would have been Sally’s responsibility. She probably felt that she was “behind” and/or that her authority was in jeopardy, and for both reasons (or either reason) scrambled to get on top of the situation. She may have prioritized the “getting the process under control” task over the “demonstrating my appreciation that the co-workers took this on on short notice” task, true, but at the same time it seems like the co-workers were not willing to hand control of the process back to Sally either. The whole thing sounds, as others have noted, like (Karen and?) the co-workers expect a whole lot of submission and obsequiousness from Sally.

          I also agree that the “Sally examples” sound like normal professional behavior and the “Karen examples” like a dismissive asshole. Also, KAREN SHOULD NOT BE MAKING SNIDE REMARKS. (Also, nothing you wrote sounds like there is the slightest problem with Sally’s work ethic, and even if there were, it’s highly unprofessional to remark on. If I overheard a co-worker make snide remarks about another co-worker’s work ethic — which I normally have no very clear insight into — a red flag would go up re: toxic culture.)

          I can understand that you’re fed up that Sally comes to you “after a row”, but rows should not be happening in the first place.

        3. JamieS*

          We have no idea if Sally considered their feelings or not. OP wrote an incredibly biased post against Sally where OP tried to make it seem like Sally’s reasonable and professional actions were as unreasonable as Karen’s unreasonable and unprofessional actions, implied Sally was lazy for having a medical emergency, and praised Karen for “letting things go” despite the fact Karen is causing the problems in the first place and isn’t letting it go at all while also minimizing accusations of workplace bullying.

          Considering that everything OP says has to be taken with a shaker full of salt. Was Sally rude and ungrateful or was she just not “thankful enough”. Based on OP’s post I wouldn’t be at all surprised if she just wasn’t “thankful enough”.

    11. Sarah C*

      You don’t have a Sally problem. You have a Karen problem, and how you address it is by managing her. Set boundaries and expectations, communicate these clearly and unequivocally to Karen, and hold her accountable.

      Frankly I’m not at all surprised that Sally is fed up. If I was her I’d be job hunting. This situation is untenable.

    12. zora*

      Hmm, I’m not sure I agree with other commenters that this is just a “Karen problem”. I think Sally is in a tough position that is not of her own making that she was kind of brought in as an outsider to fix things, and she’s not a nurse. But, I think it’s possible she could try a little harder to be appreciative and acknowledge others’ efforts and smooth things over, since she is in an oversight position. That’s something that people need to sometimes do in that kind of position.

      So, I would talk to each of them individually (not together, I think that is always awkward and weird) about how you understand they have different working styles and different strengths. And that is hard sometimes. But that both of them are super valuable to the department (basically all the stuf fyou said here) and that you don’t need them to be friends, but you DO need them to be polite with each other, work well together, and not talk to other staff behind each others’ back. Then Alison’s thing “Is that something you can do?”. And then you might need some ongoing coaching for a while of “That grumbling in today’s meeting is what I”m talking about. I understand this is high pressure and frustrating, but I need you to come to me to discuss those frustrations in private, not say that in front of all other staff in that meeting.”

      I do NOT believe in forced apologies, where you say “Go tell Sally you are sorry” that is not appropriate for adults, and I’ve seen managers push that on people which is awful. But this is something you have standing to ask people, they don’t have to like the other person, but they do need to be polite. And Sally could do better at saying thank you and appreciating the work the others are putting in, even when she is working to improve things. That is a reasonable expectation of someone in the job of process improvement, is to smooth ruffled feathers a little bit as part of the process.

      All of that said: I do think Karen is working a lot and possibly heading toward burnout, so I’d also make sure you have some best practices in place for health-care burnout. I realize cutting her hours is difficult, but there are other practices out there, like regular counseling, regular vacation hours/being totally off line for certain amounts of time, regular breaks during the day, etc.

      Also, just want to follow up with: I have worked places where two people had lots of tension due to a bad situation, and with some steady work like this from the management above them, were able to move past it and build a better relationship of respect. But it took some commitment from their management that this was a requirement and not optional.

    14. Decima Dewey*

      If all Sally’s reports run as long as she leaves a computer logged in, why are her coworkers mistakenly logging her out when she’s away?

      And grumbling because Sally wasn’t there for launch *because of a medical emergency*?

      1. tamarack and fireweed*

        That is another thing. If Sally has set up reports to run automatically (great job!) but has to use a system that can easily be accidentally kicked over by someone logging her out, then she isn’t being given the appropriate work tools, computing infrastructure etc. Automated reports should be run on a system that at the very minimum would only fall over if someone pulls a plug – not some shared thing that others can log each other out. As a sometimes computing professional, it would frustrate me to no end.

    15. Dasein9*

      Overworked employees are unhappy employees. It’s really quite unreasonable to expect professional behavior out of any human being for more than 50 hours or so a week. Brains and emotions need down time. When they don’t get it, then professionalism slips. It sounds like this has been going on with your staff for a while now.

    16. Not So NewReader*

      I agree that you have a Karen problem.
      Please lighten up on Sally about “letting it go like Karen” because Karen is not letting go and I suspect Karen is a workplace bully. Sally has a huge problem.

      I would cut Karen’s hours down first. If she is paid for a 40 hour week then she needs to figure out how to delegate her work so she is at the 40 hour level. The hardest worker in the world negates their value if they contribute to toxicity of the workplace. If you think of it as Karen works hard so she can buy her right to rule the roost, then you can see the manipulation that is happening here. You are the boss, not Karen.

      Indeed, people who put in too many hours tend to think that they actually own the business. At some point it stops being a group endeavor and starts being their personal project that just happens to involve other people.
      If you want to get Karen to tone it down then send her home.

      You can also tell Sally that you expect her to keep her hours at 40 hours per week also. Sally probably is ready for time away from drama-mongering Karen.

      Karen is very good at finding reasons not to get along with Sally. You can inform her that part of what she is compensated for is her willingness to get along with other people. You can say since you seem to be unable to help her toward that goal, then she must go on her own and find ways to get along better with Sally.
      You say you are coaching Karen. Insist on homework, tell her at her next coaching session she must develop and bring in several things she will do to build a better working relationship with Sally. (Here, since Karen refuses to accept your ideas, throw the entire ball in her court and tell her that she must come up with stuff on her own.)

      Take a look at your staffing levels. Perhaps Sally can have a part-time assistant. Perhaps Karen has enough work in her department to hire another full timer.

      For backstabbing/gossiping what I did was tell the group that if someone is routinely backstabbing someone else I DO eventually hear about it. (This was true, someone was always eager to tell me about it.) Since gossiping and backstabbing undermine the group effort and therefore detract from company goals, gossiping and backstabbing cannot be tolerated from ANYONE.
      [It’s a good idea to make sure you are walking the talk here, yourself. Your words will be taken more seriously if you are role modeling this behavior.]

      But in your story here, I see the number one thing as getting Karen’s hours reduced. I have heard of and seen supervisors like this. What they are doing is making sure their pockets are lined with money (all that OT). They create a lot of drama to make it seem like the place is out of control and you oh-so-need-them-very-much as they are your savior. This is all BS.
      Send her home and don’t be surprised if the work still gets done. She is actually creating more work in addition to the existing work.

    17. sum of two normal distributions*

      As someone who works in healthcare and at a hospital, your use of “nursing leadership” and ” unfamiliarity with nurse culture” makes me pause. I have a feeling your diminishing language in reference to Sally, who, by your own description, seems like she is getting her job done right, makes me think some politics are at play.

      Sally is your tech person & she is doing her job – it’s the nurses that seem to be the problem in this situation. Others are saying you have a Karen problem* but I think it’s bigger and extends to your whole leadership staff. If you have some “nurse culture” things you want her to know so that she can gel better with your staff – then that’s a soft skill you need to coach her on.

      * You do – her attitude is poor but I imagine the poor lady is overworked! As someone who put in 70hr weeks before, you would have to pry work I had no time for out of my dead, cold hands (despite paradoxically also being tired as hell and wishing someone would help me). Anytime someone was brought in to help, I couldn’t help but feel slighted that they thought I couldn’t do it. When you work like that, you don’t think clearly and you become a control freak/very territorial. It’s alienating and not a great road for Karen to be on. I would seriously consider encouraging her to take some time off and get some more work off her plate. This is also best for Sally, who you run the risk of burning out with not only her work but all this interpersonal drama (which can be very exhausting).

    18. What’s with Today, today?*

      ”She also became adept at our new HR system when she felt Sally was not supporting staff on it enough.”

      Please tell me this wasn’t during Sally’s life threatening medical emergency?

    19. Qwerty*

      Karen is toxic and the culture on this team is putting patients at risk.

      When Karen is mad at Sally, the staff start making false complaints about Sally. This is a *huge* integrity problem for people in charge of healthcare! They are lying and covering for each other – how can you trust anything they have to say about a patient or their care?

      Sally keeps coming to your with her perspective as an attempt to stand up for herself, because you clearly do not have her back. You let her get bullied and praise the bully for “letting it go”.

      I am so aghast at your role in this situation and the views you have on these two employees (from the word choice in your description, such implying someone with a burst appendix is slacking) that I can’t even itemize all the things wrong here. You are failing as a manager and from how you describe the situation and wanting someone “to be less sensitive” when people are filing *false complaints* about her indicates that you should not be managing people.

    20. ..Kat..*

      I used to be in tech. Now I am a bedside nurse. It sounds as if you have bad feelings on both sides that have been going on for years and are very entrenched.

      One thing most people commenting here don’t seem to get: it is not uncommon for tech people to not understand what nurses do, come up with technology to be used by nurses, and have that technology be completely wrong for what nurses do. The nurses get upset with tech because tech did not ask for nursing input, did not listen to nursing input, and insists that the nurses don’t know how to do their nursing. I see this happen a lot.

      1. zora*

        Yes, this is exactly what I was trying to get at, but you are saying it much more clearly.

        I think Karen needs to be spoken to and needs to stop being publicly rude to Sally, but ALSO, Sally and the OP need to make sure the nurses are feeling heard about their actual work needs as well as being appreciated for going above and beyond when Sally was out. Both Sally and Karen need coaching on soft skills, and clearer boundaries about what actions are unacceptable.

  22. Roscoe*

    This question is really specific for people in sales.

    I’ve been at my current sales job a little over a year. Like many sales jobs, my first year wasn’t exactly great. I hit quote some months, but probably missed it more often. That said, I did start to pick up when I got close to my anniversary and have been pretty consistently hitting my numbers since. I was never offered a raise in base salary. Is it off base to bring that up knowing that for a good portion of my first year I wasn’t hitting my numbers? I wasn’t a “bad” employee, just building my book of business.

    1. T. Boone Pickens*

      What does your salary review process look like in your current role? You indicated that you’ve been hitting your numbers more recently, over the past 6 months have you been at quota? Or, if you’ve been exceeding quota, how much over have you been?

      I agree that the first year can be tricky if you’re building a book of business. If you’ve already passed through your annual review and aren’t due for a discussion for another year I think you can approach your boss assuming that you’re starting to exceed quota in say 3 months or so. You’d have to do some deal forecasting on your end and keep a robust pipeline of course. I’m assuming your boss is like most typical sales managers in that you’re going to need to provide some data to back up your claims. He/she may also be looking at your daily sales activities so make sure you’re keeping up with that and documenting everything in your CRM (if required).

    2. MoopySwarpet*

      We’re small, so not handling a huge sales staff, but if a sales person is not hitting their goals consistently, they do not get a base raise. We also only offer raises once per year unless there are extenuating circumstances. In your case, we would probably agree to a mid-year review.

      That said, I think once you’ve been hitting your numbers and/or increasing for 6+ months, you could ask about it.

      Part of it depends on how your company handles sales salary, too. Do other sales people get regular base raises? How often? What is the criteria for receiving them? If you don’t know, you probably could ask management those questions without seeming like you’re asking outright for a raise they might feel like you haven’t earned (yet).

  23. GigglyPuff*

    As soon as I recolored my old bleach streak with an awesome cerulean color, I got a second interview after I thought I bombed the phone interview.

    Isn’t that the way it always goes?

    1. Moray*

      It’s sort of like how it always rains right after you wash your car. Good luck with the interview!

  24. BeanCat*

    Ooooh. I’m stuck revving my wheels right now. I have to have surgery again, which means I need to get in touch with HR about FMLA and short term disability…but my doctor hasn’t scheduled a date yet and nobody is returning my calls. On the work end of things, I’ll need to have someone cover my job for those two weeks, so I’ll likely have to train someone unless the person who’s familiar and comfortable with it is available. There’s so many balls in the air right now, but I feel like I threw them all and then suddenly found out they’re filled with helium because they won’t come back down.

    Sigh. Wish me luck!!

    1. LadyAbhorsen*

      I hate that feeling!! Best of luck with all the helium balls coming back to earth in a sensible and manageable order, and before too soon!

    2. Just me*

      I’d go ahead and give HR a heads up even if you don’t have a date set. I always appreciate when an employee lets me know they have something on the horizon. As for the doctor, I always say nothing is as urgent to the doctor as it is to the patient!

      Good luck.

      1. BeanCat*

        Oh, sorry, I wasn’t clear – I completely forgot to mention I did speak to them and was clear I don’t have a date yet. They were appreciative, I just hate not having answers for them!

        Thank you!

    3. Mimmy*

      “helium balls” – I am totally stealing this! I know how that feels.

      I can understand feeling frustrated that you don’t have answers for HR and I’m glad they understand. You can’t control the doctors’ lack of a timely response.

      1. BeanCat*

        Hahaha! I’m happy it’s not just me. Steal and use away! :)

        The other stressful piece is on a more personal end, but my dad wants to come up and help out while I’m out. But my stepmom has a procedure coming up as well and dad is stressed they’ll overlap. Blargh! Doctor, please call me. But thankfully HR just said “notice is nice, but we’ll make it work whenever it comes up.”

    4. cactus lady*

      I’m currently in the same boat (whyyyy does it take so long to get surgery scheduled?!). Good luck! I hope it goes well.

    5. Mbarr*

      I hope your surgery goes well, and that you get a date soon!

      In the meantime, in case you get a date and don’t have time to train someone, can you start writing a user guide, standard operating procedures, etc?

      1. BeanCat*

        Thank you!

        I actually recently updated our manual! I might ask someone who wouldn’t normally do my job to take a look and see if it’s clear enough. It makes sense to me because I wrote it, but I’m biased with my own writing :) thank you for the suggestion!

    6. Elizabeth West*

      Isn’t that the worst? I feel like I spend half my life waiting for people to call me back.

      Good luck with your surgery!

  25. C*

    tl;dr What are some ways you can phrase asking a candidate why they’re job searching (again) when they’ve had a couple of short stints recently?

    Longer version, we’re going to be interviewing a candidate with good experience, but their job history is a little odd. They had one job for 10+ years, 2-3 jobs for ~1 year, a 10 year stint, then another ~1 year stint, and has been in their current job for 8 months, and applied for our position. Ours would be a step up, it looks like, from their previous jobs (title-wise), but it also seems weird to me that they’re not yet at our level, despite being in the industry this long. So, I want to ask about the recent short stints, in particular, but am not experienced with interviewing, so I’m not sure the best way to phrase the question.

    1. AndersonDarling*

      I’d bring it up just like that, “It looks like you haven’t been at your last 2 jobs long.” and then wait for a response.
      But this doesn’t look very alarming to me. When you have been at a company a long, long time, it may take a few hops to find another company that you can commit to long term. The best colleagues I’ve worked with end up doing this. They go to a new job, realize it isn’t what they are looking for, and since they are rock-starts they can find another job in a few months. But once they find the right one, they settle in for 5+ years.

    2. Natalie*

      I think you’re overthinking this a bit! You really don’t have to dance around the issue or phrase it in a particular way – “[you’ve] had a couple of short stints recently. Why are you job searching again?” is fine.

    3. Aezy*

      If they’ve only been at their current company 8 months then I think you can definitely ask what’s prompted them to look to move on so soon – you might find a totally reasonable explanation (I started job searching at 8 months due to massive layoffs). You can be pretty straight forward about it as well since anyone with that level of experience should be prepared to offer an explanation.

      For the older roles, maybe you could frame it as “how their job history contributes to their suitability for this role?” it might prompt them to offer more detail about the shorter stays, but I wouldn’t see them as a reflag in particular. Probably more of a red flag is that they’re not yet at the level you’d expect them to be at given their time in the industry so I would be probing around their achievements in previous roles and the skills they built up in the shorter stays in particular.

    4. Anonymous Educator*

      I’d actually start with being a bit more open-ended, and ask them to walk through their job history and how they go to where they are now and why they’re looking, and let them give you the narrative. If they’re a bit vague about certain things, you can follow up with clarification questions.

    5. Nice Going Angelica*

      With a pattern of short stints, I like to ask candidates to walk me through their resume so I can see how their career has progressed. Then I ask with each position what caused them to change to the next one.

    7. Zennish*

      Something like “I see your tenure at a couple of jobs was relatively brief, can you tell me about those?” is totally fine. It may not be a huge issue. It’s obvious that they can hold a job long-term, so they may just be a little pickier than usual about finding the right fit, or perhaps it’s an industry with more than a fair share of toxic jobs, or where layoffs are common, etc.

    8. Sleepytime Tea*

      Honestly, this is super common nowadays and not a huge red flag to me. The fact of the matter is that a lot of places don’t offer a lot of advancement or they are seriously lacking when it comes to being competitive with raises, and the only way to move up or get a decent salary increase is to go to another company.

      So if your company is competitive and offers opportunity for advancement, then any employee is more likely to stay for the long haul.

      I’ve been straight up asked by interviewers why it is that my last couple jobs I was only with for a year or two. One was that there was a mass change in management and the department was going in a direction that was no longer in line with my career goals. The other I was happy at but my partner got a job in another state and we were moving. It’s not an uncommon question to ask, and if the reason is that they needed advancement and it wasn’t something offered at that employer, and you know that you aren’t going to be able to offer much in that area, then it might not be a good fit. Of course, if this is a step up, it already has more potential for them to stay for a longer period, and if your company is good about career growth, they are also more likely to stick around.

    9. Kathenus*

      I like the question ‘Briefly describe your (career related) experience and tell us why you took/left various positions or roles.’

    10. The New Wanderer*

      On the second part of your question – that it appears odd that they’re not at the level of your position yet after being in the industry for a while. It’s possible their pattern of work hasn’t allowed them the straightforward progress you’d expect from someone with the equivalent amount of time at a single company. I could easily see this person spending 10 years at the first job, maybe making a move up with the next job but it didn’t work out, then a couple of sideways moves trying to find the right fit, then arriving at the next decade-long position. And maybe that second long term job didn’t allow for upward mobility, so they started looking around again, but the higher you climb, the fewer opportunities are out there, so maybe they settled for lateral moves again.

      Personally, I started at my company with two other people with my experience/degrees. I was promoted once before them by about a year, and then they were both promoted above me 1 and 2 years ago, respectively; meanwhile I spent 18 months out of work after a layoff before restarting here. I am now on track to be promoted next year. There’s not always a clear line between years of experience and title/level.

    11. Not So NewReader*

      I have gone a different direction by saying, “We are looking for someone who is able to stay with us for a while. I see you have two 10 year stints on your resume, so you know what I mean. Having employees stay with us for a while is important to us. Are you interested/able to commit to staying for a bit?”
      When they say yes, you can ask them what appeals to them about the job that makes them think they would be committed to the job for a while.

  26. Wing Leader*

    Is my boss a jerk or am I too sensitive?

    At my job, we get basic health insurance but if we want dental and vision we have to pay extra. Because I just barely make enough to live, I have opted out of dental and vision insurance every year.

    Well, a few weeks ago I learned that I needed a minor dental surgery (of course). Fortunately, I found a fabulous oral surgeon that works with uninsured people and does not charge an arm and a leg, so I was able to pay for it without much hardship thank goodness. I also was able to schedule the surgery on a Friday and use the weekend to recover so I only had to miss one day of work. I was very fortunate with how it all worked out.

    However, when I went to tell my boss that I’d need that Friday off work and why, the first thing she said to me was, “HAHA! Should have gotten dental insurance!”

    Um…okay. My boss is older than my mother, yet she is often very immature. I just didn’t know what to say in that moment, but I felt her comment was really insensitive and uncalled for. Like I said, everything went well for me, but what if it hadn’t?

    I don’t know. I suppose this is pretty minor, but it’s been bugging me.

    1. gecko*

      Can you use it as an opportunity to ask for better/cheaper dental?

      Otherwise–I’d probably let it lie. I think she probably didn’t think about your financial sitch, which is indeed unempathetic but not the wildest mistake for someone to make; I’d just keep this in mind in the future.

    2. Not Me*

      Your boss is a jerk. I see so many managers that respond to health issues like this with something other than “Oh no, I hope everything turns out ok, of course you can have Friday off!!” and it drives me nuts. There’s just a way to be a decent human being and making jokes about people in pain is not one of them.

      1. tangerineRose*

        I agree. The boss sounds like a little kid with this mocking statement. One thing that might work with this type of thing is to say “I wish I could have afforded it.” That may make the boss realize how childish she sounded.

    3. ZSD*

      I agree that your boss’s comment was jerky, but if that’s one of the few poor-taste comments she’s made, I’d let it go.

    4. DietCokeHead*

      It’s bugging you because your boss is a jerk! That’s a really crappy response on her part. I hope your dental surgery went well and I’m glad you were able to find a way to make it work.

    5. Ruth (UK)*

      As an initial aside, it’s interesting that dental and vision is often classes separately! Here in the UK where we have national health care, dental and vision is not included in that! I mean, some oral or eye problems are, but general sight issues / needing glasses etc isn’t.

      On the topic of your question… I think what your boss said was insensitive but it also sounds like something she didn’t think through and maybe just popped out. I can see why it would bug you, but I don’t think it’s big enough to easily address now that the moment’s passed. I think what’s more important is how she treats you generally (and if that’s generally good, it’ll be easier for you to let this go. And if it’s not, then it’s a bigger issue than this one comment I guess…)

      1. londonedit*

        True with opticians, certainly (unless you fall into certain income/age categories and qualify for free eye tests) but I think NHS dental services are subsidised, aren’t they? You have the NHS pricing structure and private fees are way more expensive than that.

        1. JaneB*

          Or have certain eye conditions… (I get NHS eye care, and like dentistry pay a fixed fee since I’m in work, but when I was a student it was free).

          And yes, NHS dentistry is free if you are on certain benefits, pregnant or new mum, a child, in full time education, etc., and if you’re in work there are fixed charges for certain treatments which are WAY below the private rates. WAY below, especially for complex reconstructive work like say crowns or bridges.

          Same system as for medicines – if you’re above a certain income band and not in certain age groups, you pay a set fee per prescription regardless of the cost of the medication.

      2. Bagpuss*

        It down to the negotiations having been different with the different professions, back in 1948 when they brought in the NHS. I think some of it was that with medicine, you have hosptials so doctors were to a much greater degree either already part of a larger organisation, or had been so in the past, whereas opticians and dentists were mostly sole traders or in small partnerships, and didn’t need to be able to refer on to hospitals to the same extent that a GP might.

        But yes, NHS dentists charge fixed fees and are free for children, pregnant women and those on qualifying benefits , and they are much cheaper than private dentists.
        I think for opticians the sight test is free for children, the over 60s, and those with certain medical conditions, as well as those on low incomes, and those groups can also get vouchers towards the cost of glasses or contact lenses, although I’m not sure whether they cover the full cost

    6. Murphy*

      I don’t think there’s anything you could have done/could do to address it, but that was a pretty crappy thing for your boss to say.

    7. Sunday Morning Fever*

      It’s bugging you because your boss was being a jerk. I would take this as a learning experience. Consider what you would have liked to have said in response and then if she does it (or something similar) again, you’ll be prepared.

      “Wow.” Or “that’s quite personal.” Or “if Company offered X maybe I would have that option.”

    8. OneMoreAlison*

      If i was feeling sour I would say “at my current pay rate, I can’t afford dental insurance”. Just completely deadpan/matter of fact.

      Glad you’re getting the care you need, dental stuff is such a pain

      1. Not So NewReader*

        Yep, yep, yep.
        I had a boss like this. Say it in a low key tone on a par with “I think it might rain today.” Be matter of fact about it.

        This is a boss who is NOT in your corner. Recognize that. A good boss does not find victory in your losses. Hang on to that thought. A good boss would have said, “I am sorry our dental coverage did not work out for you.” Bonus points if the boss says, “I am aware others had the same problem and I have been advocating for a better plan with Big Boss.”

        When I supervised I would have been embarrassed that our company was unable to help you.

    9. jDC*

      What does you having insurance have to do with you taking a day off? What a butthead. I would’ve said “ha you should pay me a wage that allows that”.

      1. Anonymous Educator*

        Yeah, I’m not understanding even the meaning of the wholly inappropriate comment. Is the idea that if one hand dental insurance, one wouldn’t need to take the day off? It’s a horrible remark, but it also doesn’t make any sense.

        1. fhqwhgads*

          I took it just that while requesting the day off, OP mentioned why. And the response was about the “why” (dental surgery) not about the day off.

      2. DAMitsDevon*

        Same here. If anything, I feel like Friday is probably one of the better days to take off, because if you need time outside of the surgery to recover (like in the case of wisdom tooth surgery), you’d be able to do that over the weekend instead of having to potentially take additional days off.

    10. noahwynn*

      Honestly, I don’t keep dental or vision insurance because it is less for me to pay for the two dental cleanings and exams every year and the once yearly vision exam and contacts than it is to pay for the insurance. I just use HSA money so it is pretax and save a bit there as well. Also, generally lucky that I’ve never had a cavity in my adult life much less any other dental issues.

      Her comment would bug me too. How people chose to spend money is a private thing. She (assuming here) knows how much you make so it wouldn’t be a stretch to assume she would understand why you don’t pay for the additional insurance.

    11. Goose Lavel*

      Your boss is a douche. You must have already told her that you could not afford dental coverage prior to asking for Friday off to have your procedure and you got a version of “I told you so”.

      Time pick you battles and this one is already lost. Don’t expect any sympathy going forward.

    12. Huh*

      But you would have probably selected a reasonably priced dentist/oral surgeon and needed the time off for the surgery and recovery even if you had dental insurance… so I am not really seeing the boss’ point. So yes this is just your boss being weird.

    13. Zennish*

      My first thought was “HAHA! Should have paid me enough to afford it!” but actually saying that would probably be counterproductive.

    14. The Man, Becky Lynch*

      Your boss isn’t just a childish jerk, she’s asinine.

      You had to take the day off and she has NO IDEA what you’re paying. Which in my estimation, is probably less in the end than what your insurance would have cost you. Dental insurance is a scam for the most part. You’re only covered for $2000 worth of “insured work” for the good plan that we have. And they’ll still nickle and dime you for things. So you can end up paying $2000 a year regardless with premiums and co-pays/deductibles etc.

      She’s callous and ridiculous.

      1. Not So NewReader*

        Back when we had it , the plan covered $1500. By the time you looked at what was excluded it became apparent that it was a waste of money.
        So my husband went to the dentist around the time he had to pick his benefits for the year. He found out he needed x and x was covered. We worked the math and for that up-coming year he had dental insurance because it was that rare moment when the stars were in alignment. We dropped it the following year.

        But the pattern is well-known. Companies got a dental plan and everyone who had not been to a dentist in ten years signed up. The insurance companies ended up paying out more than they took in in premiums. Not a good business plan for them.

    15. Fortitude Jones*

      My response would have been, “I would have gotten it if you paid me more.” Sheesh. Some people are ridiculous.

    16. sum of two normal distributions*

      Yes, she is a massive jerk! What in the world would make her say that to you and laugh on top of it?

      Be assured, you are not too sensitive, OP!

    17. Llellayena*

      Double check your regular health insurance. Because it’s dental SURGERY some or all might be covered under the regular insurance. Mine works like that, if I need to get my impacted wisdom teeth out (knock on wood, cross fingers, throw salt over my shoulder) my regular insurance will cover it because it’s surgery. But the three crowns I got one year were not covered.

      Oh, and your boss is a jerk.

      1. Clisby*

        That’s how my insurance with vision-related things. It would pay if I needed cataract surgery, for example, but not for routine exams/glasses. I’d have to get vision insurance for that.

  27. gecko*

    Can I get a reality check about my grumpiness level about my job?

    Basically–my boss is very hands off. This works great for me; I can always find work to do, and I feel like I have a lot of control over my priorities. I also got a big raise last year, and I’m jazzed about that.

    That said, I have coworker problems/boss problems despite that. I have three coworkers who categorically do not do much work, and not very high quality. I’m in software and our metrics are public to each other. My boss knows about this and is…not really doing anything about it.

    One of the three slacker coworkers is an old friend of mine, and he’s the senior person on the team, and is in the position of kind of being asked to manage my team, but also my real boss is still my real boss; and besides that, my friend is terrible at management–rarely does prioritization tasks, doesn’t do things like delegation & prioritization of issues unless the issue goes through the exact process that he wants (a process he never communicates clearly), and gets frustrated at basic elements of the job like attending meetings and communicating our two major sources of software issues.

    So…I’m frustrated by it. I’m more than half sure I’m going to look for a new gig mid-autumn, and I’m still toying between, you know, should I just let this go, should I bring up the issues with my friend, should I keep bringing up the issues with my two other slacker coworkers? I trust my boss to listen to me and not hold anything against me, but I don’t necessarily trust him to take action–he doesn’t want to be a “micromanager.”

    My question really is, should I sit on this stuff or continue to bring it up? These are common problems, but I’m more frustrated by them lately.

    1. LadyAbhorsen*

      I would bring it up with your boss. You say he doesn’t want to micromanage, but it sounds like he’s not actually… managing. If he brushes you off I’d suggest underlining to him that while you love this job, if this continues you may have to start looking for a new employer.

      If you let this all fester and then quit when you can’t stand it any more, they might have a feeling of “why didn’t you say anything?”. This way if nothing changes, you’ll be able to point to this as a moment they could have used to pivot.

      1. gecko*

        Thank you! Yeah it’s pretty annoying to hear him be like “I don’t want to micromanage” and be feeling, like, no, you’d just be managing.

        I think one of my hesitations has been is, I’m probably more than half sure I’m going to look for something new and it feels weird to go in and unload considering that.

    2. sunshyne84*

      I would just leave. The manager can clearly see you are far more productive and doesn’t seem to care so let them figure things out on their own once you leave.

    3. Not So NewReader*

      I would start looking for a new job now not in the fall.
      If you want to spend time teaching others how to do their jobs then okay. But I could see me deciding not to do that and just focusing on leaving.
      The problem with helping others to learn their jobs is that you never quite reach the end of the training, as there is always one more issue to discuss.
      People either actively commit to on-going learning or they don’t. We can’t really make them.

    4. sum of two normal distributions*

      The fact that you are more frustrated with them lately sounds like you are burning out, which is inevitable when you work in an environment like this where 1) you care about your work and others don’t, 2) you aren’t getting great support or communication about goals and priorities, and 3) you are probably having to pick up the slack of your colleagues who are less productive.

      If you truly like your work, you will have some more work ahead of you trying to galvanize your manager and change the status quo. You would know more about how these people will react to being held more accountable but in my experience, people are resistant. Good luck & try looking now rather than later!

  28. LadyAbhorsen*

    I’m quitting today!!! Please wish me luck!!

    I’m on FMLA though the 17th, and my start date for NewJob is the 22nd, so I’m…. definitely screwing over oldjob except that I completed all of my important documentation last month in anticipation of this so all I have left to do is clean my desk out (and try not to undo all of my hard work with a guilt attack).

    1. LadyAbhorsen*

      Also I’m coming in to quit in person, though my bossboss is on vacation so I’ll be quitting with the Director. Whoops.

      1. Matilda Jefferies*

        It doesn’t sound like you’re screwing over OldJob at all – you’re already on leave, so it sounds like you’ve done most of your transition planning already, and you’ve done all the outstanding work. You’ve got nothing to worry about. But good luck anyway, both with quitting and at the new job!

        1. LadyAbhorsen*

          Haha, I can’t even parse what’s real and what’s guilt any more. Thank you for the reminder.

    2. gecko*

      Good luck!!! I agree with Matilda Jefferies above that I think you do not have to feel guilty.

    3. The Man, Becky Lynch*

      Nope nope nope, still not screwing them over! So excited for you and hope that the new job goes wonderfully!

      1. LadyAbhorsen*

        Becky! Please do not be disappointed that I’m still getting chewed on by guilt! I am no The Man, standing defiant and victorious with blood streaming down your face!

        Thank you! I will be strong!

        1. The Man, Becky Lynch*

          It’s okay, I know guilt all too personally myself! So it’s there, regardless of rather we want it or not. I know that it’ll pass once you’ve given notice and get to the new job, it’s like those stupid butterflies that other a stomach before any big change or new adventure.

          1. LadyAbhorsen*

            I gave notice and it went super well. All guilt is washed away with a huge surge of excitement!

    4. CatCat*

      Congrats on the new job! It sounds like you have taken steps to ensure a smooth transition. Do not feel guilty, feel excited for your new chapter!

  29. ANOTHER friday anon*

    I’ve received some, to me, devastating feedback over the past weeks that I’m trying to address. What it basically boils down to is that I need to turn down my everything and shut up more.

    Please note, I’m not being intentionally hurtful, but I think I am being unintentionally so by, well, saying the truth too often and letting my emotions get the better of me. I’m one of those easy to get worked up types but I calm down immediately after, if something annoys me I vent (I know I shouldn’t, it’s something I’m trying to condition myself out of). I don’t yell, but I complain because I’m frustrated by easy processes moving glacially and people willfully not understanding requirements and I could probably stand to do a lot less of that, but it’s a terribly hard habit to break.

    I admire those always calm colleagues who have always the right answers and let everything roll off their backs, I wish I could be like that. But my filter has been off kilter in the last few years, especially since my work has become very stressful. An example is when I’m working with a colleague on something and we need to look something up and I know in which section is it, “section 14” – colleague clicks elsewhere and stays on page forever reading section headers – “it’s section 14” – colleague waits some more reading the section headers – “it’s in 14” – colleague turns around “anon, really, enough”. (this is a very mild but the most recent example, and this sounds like I’m impatient but I think it comes across as know it all and ugh)

    I…don’t notice these things before they come out of my mouth. I do know I need to think before I say something, but somehow….way too often I don’t. I’m standing in my own way with this and I KNOW this but most often I just don’t notice I’m being obnoxious (I was raised to speak my mind at all times and somehow no one ever bothered enough to correct me in this, so I’m starting from the back on this). And I’m really sorry to my colleagues for this (I do say sorry when I notice it). I think I really just need to start physically biting my tongue before saying anything, and perhaps go outside for five minutes when something annoys me.

    I know that this is partially stress related because it definitely has gotten worse and I will work on reducing stress once I can get my head above water, but “I’m stressed” is not an excuse I’m comfortable with, other people are stressed too.

    (I know someone will suggest therapy, but even though I’m in a western country, therapist’s waitlists are 2-3 years here and priority is given to people whose quality of life if strongly affected by an illness, I cannot wait 2-3 years to address this. I don’t have any disorder, I’m just your average obnoxious coworker who doesn’t mean to be obnoxious.)

    Does anyone have any literature suggestions to get me started working on this? It would be so helpful to have at least a basic framework to work with instead of fumbling blind and addressing the symptoms rather than what’s causing them. I really really want to be a better person/coworker, not for career related reasons, but because I think I would be a lot more balanced and a lot happier that way, aside from giving my colleagues less to be annoyed by.

    1. Another Lauren*

      Ooh, you’re my emotional twin! I have gotten that same feedback in the past, and you’re right—it’s so tough to hear. I have a few tricks that have helped me work on this. First, I always assume positive intent—if something is moving at a glacial pace, I tell myself that it’s for a good reason that I happen to just not know about. Even if secretly I know that’s not the case, I pretend there’s a reason anyway.

      I also remind myself that it’s not the Another Lauren game show; I don’t win a prize for being the first person to respond to a question or catch other errors. What I might win a prize for, though, is supporting my colleagues by allowing them to take the lead on some things, even when it’s So. Freaking. Obvious how to find the answer.

      And last, especially because I also tend to get worse with this when I’m stressed, I make it a point to ask a ton of open-ended questions. Rather than ask something like, “have you done X?” I’ll ask, “what have you tried?” This way I don’t assume I already have all the answers, even if deep down I think I do.

      It takes practice and an openness to constructive criticism, but I promise you, this is a trait that is totally fixable!

      1. ANOTHER friday anon*

        Thank you for kind reply and for your encouragement.

        Your suggestions sound very good and I will be trying this!

    2. gecko*

      I’m pretty good about this at work, but I have certainly had my moments of “oh my god, why did I say that and behave that way.” Still mulling over a cool and great time that happened last night, in fact. So hello, fellow person!

      I don’t have specific book recommendations, but I think you’re right to say, yeah, just trying to bite your tongue won’t work. A lot of the time, I think this kind of annoyance that’s prompting sharp outbursts comes from lack of empathizing with people. Basically: the fundamental attribution error is a…cornerstone error in the human psyche. It’s a lot easier to say, “I behaved X way because of Y external factor” and “Fergus behaved X way because he’s annoying and slow,” than the reverse.

      For instance, the table of contents section 14 example–your initial impulse is, “they’re just not paying attention to me and doing this in a reasonable way WHY.” I get that! But what is also perfectly likely is they were thinking, “another anon keeps saying 14 to me, but I’m trying to get quick context on the rest of the section headers before I click, and I can’t even process the words while I have a little voice in my ear, so now I can’t even concentrate to see where section 14 is.”

      In that case, if at the beginning you’d framed it more like that and trusted your coworker to remember “14,” I think you might not have snapped. But this isn’t a “staircase words” situation; it’s reasonable that you didn’t think about it that way initially! In large part because you’re stressed.

      Stress really can degrade decision-making skills. And in that case I wonder if you can basically make yourself do two things. One being, is there a way you can get less stressed? Delegation, lighten workload, different organization, different mindset, lowering the stakes in your head?

      The second is, can you come up with some corny way to force yourself to put yourself in your coworker’s shoes before they start to annoy you? For instance, asking yourself, if I was doing this, why would I be doing this? If I were the one refusing to answer my urgent email until after lunch, why would I be doing that? I’d be doing that because I was hungry and really needed a break. Already you’ve moved away from the ARRGH cycle.

      Hope that helps–sorry I don’t have any literature recommendations, but the above is what I try to do, and it works pretty well to shore up my normally non-existent filter.

      1. ANOTHER friday anon*

        Thank you so much for your understanding and your kind words.

        I think you may be right that this may be a lack of empathy, as hard as is to admit…who wants to be told they lack this.

        As for stress, we’re coming up on a hard deadline of a ten year project (that I’ve been on for the last three), which literally hundreds of people in my organization are involved in (I manage one small process part of this and I have dozens of points of contact) and which a lot rides on. Everyone involved is stressed right now, it will get a bit better once that first deadline is passed.

        Thank you for your suggestions, I will work on trying to implement this and not give up.

        1. gecko*

          Yes, I know it can sound super harsh, but I don’t think it is—you certainly don’t seem to have an intrinsic lack of empathy!!! My god no.

          The issue to me is, it is easy for our brains to take the less empathetic route—it takes energy to TRY and see something from someone else’s perspective like that. And the stressed brain has no energy left.

          Best of luck, I think you’ve got this. It will be hard but it’s completely doable.

        2. Lobsterp0t*

          I mean, I have a ton of empathy, but I also have ADHD. My mouth is ALWAYS faster than my mouth filter. It definitely has gotten me in trouble.

          I notice that I involve myself in stuff that I don’t… need to be involved with. I offer to help people when I could just wait to be asked. I also get impatient when people do what you described. AND YET if I’m the one looking for something and someone is rushing me along, sometimes what I need is for them to shut up and let me process the information! Even if they are correct. I know that personally, I cannot physically look myself while also deferring to someone else’s “driving” most of the time. So instead I either: explain why I am taking longer (thanks, I need to get more familiar with this myself, I just need a moment to digest what is on the screen) or offer to let the other person “drive” while I watch. (Or sometimes just say, thanks! I’ve got this! Or if the shoe is on the other foot, and I’m the one interjecting, say “looks like you’ve got this!) and butt out.

          1. ANOTHER friday anon*

            “stuff that I don’t… need to be involved with”

            This sounds very familiar, but this at least I have mostly fixed, and I’m very proud of that.

            Thanks. I’m definitely missing the filter way too often, even though I’m not diagnosed with anything. But you make a very good point, thank you. I will work on my patience for sure. (In this situation I couldn’t leave because we were working on something together.)

      2. Alianora*

        This is a fantastic comment. I’ve found that genuinely being patient and non judgmental of others gets better and faster results, as well as a more pleasant work environment. To get into this mindset I try to remember times when I’ve been the slow new person and that there are probably other factors I’m not seeing.

        OP, you said that this is a really stressful time for everyone, so I’m sure that’s contributing to this. I definitely have been an impatient jerk before. Real empathy is hard to develop, but it’s probably the most valuable tool I’ve been able to use at work.

      3. Kathenus*

        When I was trying to work on some communication skills that were long-term issues for me and really tripping me up with my direct reports and coworkers, I was honest with them. I told them that I was trying to improve in x and y areas, but that I’d appreciate their help in bringing it up to me in the moment when I slipped, so that I could be aware in a timely manner and learn more about the contexts where I was still struggling with these new skills. It was important that I was dedicated to working on this and making some noticeable progress, otherwise it wouldn’t have seemed genuine. But I think they respected the fact that I was willing to put myself out there with them in an effort to improve.

    3. Agent J*

      A book a therapist recommended to me is Mind Over Mood. While it does focus on “disorders”, it can help you se yourself in some of the scenarios offered and give you ways to think differently through them.

      1. ANOTHER friday anon*

        Thank you for your book suggestions.

        I did not mean to disparage disorders, I’m sorry. I’m an ESL scientist who used to write and edit medical literature for a decade, I used science wording.

    4. Reba*

      I would try practicing with a sympathetic friend. As her to role play a stressful conversation (could be work related, or just a charged topic in the news) and be very deliberate in your responses. Time yourself if you have to. Forcing yourself to pause, i.e. “biting your tongue” is exactly the right move–maybe not going physically outside, but retraining your habits of conversation to slow down.

      I found this interesting : https://www.fastcompany.com/3047285/the-science-of-why-we-talk-too-much-and-how-to-shut-up

      It’s great to be self-aware. Please don’t let your feelings of frustration or embarrassment get you down too much!

      1. ANOTHER friday anon*

        Thank you for link! I will read this at home, the URL sounds very promising!

        And thank you for your kind words. I really want to work on this.

    5. Mimmy*

      Another emotional twin here! The advice given so far definitely surpasses any advice I could’ve offered, but I did want to comment on the “section 14” example. I think if your colleague is indeed getting context by quickly reading over the other section headings, as gecko suggested, I think he could’ve stated this rather than snapping back at you. I am not a mind reader!

      1. Parenthetically*

        Sure, but at the same time, Colleague doesn’t owe Friday Anon a play-by-play of what they’re doing. Better to assume Colleague has a good reason for doing what they’re doing rather than assuming they’re slow/stupid/stubborn/whatever.

        I always try to remind myself that the reasons others do things seem just as valid to them as the reasons I do things seem valid to me.

    6. LQ*

      If you’re normally better at this than you are under stress (YO!) then here are some of my tips about that.

      Do the things that require the most emotional/mental energy in the morning. Hard thinking work, hard meetings, complex meetings, and politically complex situations in the morning. If (when) you wear down the filters you’ve gotten through the things that require the most filters so a half filter in the afternoon email may be ok because that’s just a casual one person thing where you’ve got a solid relationship.
      Build your relationships. You don’t want to do this so that you can continue to be obnoxious, but you want to do it to see and be seen as a human and that makes all of this easier. So if you do have a super annoying moment your coworkers will see you as a human who is behaving like a human. And when your coworker won’t just jump to 14 you can go, “Eh, that’s just Sally, she’s meticulous and I’m grateful for that” and lean back in your chair and take a few deep breaths while she scans.
      Ask for kindness. If you have a relationship and you’re going through something that’s multifolding the stress to a harder place, you can ask for a little forgiveness. And you ABSOLUTELY need to give forgiveness too. “Hey, I’ve got some personal shit happening right now, sorry if I’m a little checked out, please call me out on it.” And proactively do the same for others. Be kind, ask for kindness.
      Find a tiny ritual for when you either know your filter is low or you expect it will be. A 1 minute meditation at your desk. Plan a trip to the coffee shop between stressful meetings. Things like that.

      (Everyone who meets with me Friday afternoons knows it’s the time when you can swear in my office with only laughter to accompany it. But I also only meet with people who will laugh and swear with me Friday afternoons. Because I’m burned to a crisp by now. But I have my door closed and had a quiet lunch and read a little AAM so I’m ready to be kind and listen and be patient. Even if I’m not perfectly calm and cool and collected.)

      1. ANOTHER friday anon*

        Thank you for your comment, I think especially the part about breaking up the day with something. I’m very good at building relationships especially outside my department, and I’m very lucky to be very good at my job and people recognize this, I could just stand to be….well, less.

        Scheduling all stressful meetings in the mornings won’t work as the company is global and we’re juggling timezones.

        But thank you. I have bookmarked this whole thread so I can come back to it.

    7. medium of ballpoint*

      There’s a good book called Nonviolent Conflict Resolution that sounds way more serious and dense than it is. It’s a helpful guide for thinking through your conflict resolution strategy (since it sounds like you’re dealing with a lot of frustration and irritability). That might help you gain more perspective and understand why your colleagues do things that are annoying. Best of luck!

    8. Kathenus*

      Apologies for the double comment, I nested this by mistake earlier in the thread:

      When I was trying to work on some communication skills that were long-term issues for me and really tripping me up with my direct reports and coworkers, I was honest with them. I told them that I was trying to improve in x and y areas, but that I’d appreciate their help in bringing it up to me in the moment when I slipped, so that I could be aware in a timely manner and learn more about the contexts where I was still struggling with these new skills. It was important that I was dedicated to working on this and making some noticeable progress, otherwise it wouldn’t have seemed genuine. But I think they respected the fact that I was willing to put myself out there with them in an effort to improve.

      1. ANOTHER friday anon*

        Thank you!

        I see your point about eliciting your colleagues, and maybe I will… At some point. Well, since people at work did bring did up, I did ask about this at least of my manager. I’m not sure I can admit to that to my coworkers. I’m not very good at opening up about things like this (hey at least one point for me, I don’t overshare?).

    9. The Phleb*

      I’ve been in your shoes a few times over the years. Usually I am not too bad about ‘spouting’ off at folks or appearing annoyed but when I am stressed…you got it, I go overboard. What seems to help me are several things. First, I reframe things in my own head. That co-worker wasn’t trying to be annoying or frustrate me, they were having their own bad day. Maybe they didn’t get enough sleep the night before, they have a family member ill at home, their dog died, etc…so they aren’t responding to you quickly or paying as much attention as you would like. Really thinking about what the other person might be going through and how that affects them, can help you change how YOU feel. You wouldn’t snap at a coworker whose dog had just died even if they snapped at you…you take a breathe and think, “coworker just snapped or was slow or whatever because they are upset inside.” Reframe!

      Second thing I do is pretty simple! I actually will put a bright yellow smiley face up somewhere (or all over) that I can see often as a reminder to BE NICE. Or you can write the word ‘kindness’ on a sticky…whatever will work for you. It just has to be something that will trigger you to do your reframing and take a deep breath.

      And third thing I do is make a conscious decision at different times of my day to BE NICE… BE PATIENT, etc. If I say to myself, “ok, I want to have a good afternoon so I’m going to be nice and kind to everyone no matter how slow or ridiculous or rude someone else is to me!”….then strangely I do!

      A fake smile goes a hundred miles! My supervisor calls it ‘putting on your Disney face’! Just that decision to fake it until you make it! Reframe everything! Good luck with this…I know how hard it is and how tough it is not to roll your eyes at people for all the silly things they do (or don’t do!) but you can do it if you try. :)

      1. ANOTHER friday anon*

        The conscious decision is a good call.

        Thank you. I’m not sure how well I will do on the compassion part. When I’m stressed I…. Well. You probably know. I’m always stressed these days, perhaps I need to be calmer inside.

    10. NothingIsLittle*

      Hi there! I used to behave pretty similarly to this (not the venting, but the unconstructive reactions) and occasionally still struggle to be thoughtful about my tone and wording. I dealt with the worst of my tendencies with positive punishment. I used the rubber band trick where any time I said something thoughtless or impatient, I snapped a rubber band on my wrist. In my case, it really helped to keep me aware of those negative tendencies and to, eventually, break the habit (well, that and learning how to positively cope with stress).

      I can’t remember the book my psychologist suggested off the top of my head, but I’ll see if I can find it when I get the chance.

      1. ANOTHER friday anon*

        Unconstructive reactions! That’s a GREAT term!

        The rubber band trick won’t work for me because people would very concerned if I went about with that. But perhaps I will think of something else akin to this.

    11. PharmaCat*

      Add me to the twin group. And something about being in mgmt meetings just triggers me. Good work, but I just need to STFU. Literally I am having a similar issue at work today (mid year review).

      1. ANOTHER friday anon*

        Yeah, mine is coming up too, and after the past few weeks I’m a really worried what will be said. I promised I’ll work on it, but… Yeah.

    12. Elizabeth West*

      Honestly, what helped me most with this was practicing mindfulness and meditation. You can do the former without the latter, but a regular meditation practice will definitely reduce your overall stress.

      It was anxiety and the resulting snappishness that got me into trouble at work; I don’t have a therapist either, especially now since I have no insurance. So I approached meditation as a way to deal with the anxiety and it made handling irritation much easier too. Paying attention in the moment while meditating and then taking that off the cushion has made me more aware of my triggers and my feelings. It allows me to pause when I’m tempted to react and take note of what’s going on with me. Like, Coworker isn’t clicking where I say the material is and I’m feeling angry and annoyed with her right now.

      Once I’ve observed and acknowledged my feelings, I can let them go and say cheerfully, “The info you want is in Section 14; let me know if you have any other questions!” and go back to work. And if Myrtle then emails me saying she forgot what section I just told her, I can take a breath before I reply, note my feelings, and how I need to respond, and then proceed accordingly.

      It’s worked fantastically well when dealing with family who like to freak out. I’ve managed to stay calm, which is a thing I never thought I could ever do!

      Here’s a link to help you get started. https://www.mindful.org/mindfulness-how-to-do-it/

      1. ANOTHER friday anon*

        I’ve tried mindfulness and meditation a few years ago for unrelated reasons and it didn’t work for me. However, maybe it’s time to give this another try now that circumstances are different.

        I also need to change my living situation, which something that probably contributes.

        Thank you. I will give it a try again.

    13. Feliz*

      It sounds like you’re going through a really tough time right now so cut yourself some slack. No literature to suggest, but I think AAM has a lot of great advise for exactly this scattered through the blog.

      Here’s my 2c – as I’ve gotten older I’ve gotten much more “even keel” about everything, these are some of the things that have helped me:
      – Pre-making decisions – if I know I’m going to go into a high stress/conflict situation I take 5min to think about how I want to react (I usually think about how someone I admire would react). I truly find this helpful on high stress days – I want my team & others to see me as someone who doesn’t take their stress out on others.
      – Review how I reacted to things – it’s nice thinking “wow, that was a really tough situation but I’m really pleased with how I handled it” but even “ugh, I didn’t handle that very well, next time I’ll try X instead, but it wasn’t a total disaster” is useful – don’t beat yourself up for not being perfect!
      – Breathing in, out and in again before responding to something unexpectedly stressful/annoying. Silence is ok! “Hmmmm” is a perfectly valid holding pattern while I summon my thoughts. If someone else jumps in that’s ok too, I can wait and really get my thoughts in order
      – Counting in my head if something seems especially slow – in your section 14 example I’d bet that the total time was probably 10-20s – not really long in the grand scheme of things
      – Trying not to excessively vent and not hanging out with other who vent a lot. When I vent I try to keep it short and finish it with what I’m intending to do about the problem, or even just acknowledging that the problem isn’t going to go away. I don’t enjoy spending time with people who vent endlessly and pointlessly (plus I’ve seen it actually be harmful to people’s careers when they’re a known complainer)
      – Acknowledging the good stuff. My company is far from perfect and there are some major issues that aren’t going away any time soon – so I try to remind myself and my team of all the good stuff we have going on (incredible Operations team that supports us fully etc). No job or workplace is perfect

      Good luck with this – I think if you know retrospectively that you’re doing things wrong there’s hope for you ;) :D I hope you can figure out some strategies for being the best you, not the default you (gosh, that sounds so cheesy but that’s how I frame it in my mind :D)

      1. ANOTHER friday anon*

        Thank you, these are some good suggestions and I will try some of this, especially the visualization of how someone else would react.

        I need to get into the habit to pause and I think that would help already.

        Thank you. I appreciate it.

    14. Not So NewReader*

      When I get like this I pretty much know the job is over for me.

      However, you can do a lot of self-help things. Stress depletes the body of nutrition, water and rest. You can work at home bringing up your hydration, nutritional levels and rest levels. Don’t skip this step. A body that feels fortified/helped feeds a mind. A well feed mind is less apt to go off the cuff with annoyances.

      A Very Important Tool that I have used is to ask myself, “What am I not getting here that I want?” In your example you want your cohort to page through faster. That’s not going to happen. So in this case I would tell myself, “I can’t have what I want but that is okay. I will live.”

      Let’s say, though, there are extenuating circumstances. I want my cohort to page through faster because I have a meeting in 15 minutes. Okay that is a tiny bit different. But again, it’s up to me to prevent my own stress. I can tell the cohort I have to leave in 10 minutes (giving me slack for bathroom/water/whatever). Or I can tell my cohort that I can send a link to the exact spot they need. (Here I avoid the navigating entirely.) Or I can set a time to look at it together in a bit.

      Cruel irony: I am the only one who knows how stressed I am. But I am the only one who thoroughly needs to understand that, because I can build stuff into my choices to reduce some of the simpler stresses. It’s good to take the reductions in stress loads where ever we can find them.

      1. sum of two normal distributions*

        +1000 on your comments about hydration, nutritional levels and rest levels but I would even add exercise or a routine. IDK where I read it but someone said if you start the day hectically (or live hectically), that hectic energy will follow you and wear you out.

        Once I started waking up an hour earlier so I could enjoy a cup of coffee without rushing and get a morning run in (really just 1 mile but enough), I noticed that I was way more calm through the day, my emotions were well balanced and I enjoyed going to work.

        1. ANOTHER friday anon*

          No, I only got here a few years ago and if I switched jobs I’d need to move (big industry, unfortunately very concentrated in specific areas with a few outliers….I’m with one of the outliers) and for family reasons that’s not feasible right now.

          “What am I not getting here that I want?” is a very good suggestion, thank you.

          Exercising certainly is something I need to re-incorporate into my day, I used to bike to work in my old job and it was fantastic. I can’t do that anymore now, but I definitely need to find something else to do.

    15. ONFM*

      Late to the party here – let me share/echo some things that work for me.

      1. Visible reminder. I have a notebook I carry with me to meetings and I put a piece of duct tape on the front. As in, remember to tape my mouth shut! I also changed my screen lock image on my phone to something very benign (calm beach photo, clear sky, something similar) so that I can look at it during the meeting.

      2. I make rules and follow them. I will only offer a suggestion or opinion once. I will only say (whatever) one time, and then let it go. I will not do someone else’s work for them. I will offer assistance on one item only, etc. This is easier because…

      3. I work on changing my mindset. For me the biggest drive behind this behavior was trying to fix EVERYTHING. I really had to step back and realize that sometimes people fail, and I can’t always stop it. This may be a bit bleak, but I’ve come to realize that I’m usually only responsible for myself. I can tell you the answer is in section 14, but I’m not going to wait for you to find it. And if you keep looking somewhere else, I’m out. I’ve really had to LET GO.

      Good luck!

      2. ANOTHER friday anon*

        These are GREAT, thank you!

        (I’m glad I came back to check the thread. :))

        And yes, I’m definitely guilty of wanting to fix things. In a previous job my manager said “then you let the project fail” and when I looked at her horrified she said, “it’s not your task to fix things that are not in your responsibility, others need to notice they dropped the ball” and I took that to heart then and I think I forgot about it and…need to do that again.

        Thank you. I think those are great rules to follow. Really thank you.

  30. Lx in Canada*

    Two questions:

    1. How do I explain counselling appointments? I prefer to go in the mornings, so I have to take time off from work. I’m usually going every 1.5-2 months because it costs $100 an hour and my insurance doesn’t cover it. ANYWAYS. Can I just say, I have a medical appointment? Will it look weird that I’m having a medical appointment 6-9 times a year? I mean, I do have other health issues that they know about. I just don’t want to be too open about this, if that makes sense.

    2. So I volunteer at this social services organization in the kitchen. I work for this very religious old woman (the organization itself is secular; she’s just like super God-fearing). I showed her my nails painted for pride week and she said to get out of here with that ungodly ish (she said the word though), so then I revealed I was bi (I KNOW, HUGE MISTAKE, I SCREWED UP… you don’t have to tell me this, please), and she told me I had been led down the path of Satan and such. I am actually semi-religious myself, and I know that Jesus preached to accept everyone and it’s not like a Satanic thing that I am bi. Anyways, I went and cried to the volunteer coordinator and she was very sympathetic and said it wasn’t okay for her to say that. Then she had the kitchen manager apologize to me, and I got a total non-apology that was basically like, “sorry you took it that way, people have different opinions, I think you expected me to comfort you and tell you it was going to be okay and that’s not what happened” (?????????). The VC and I agreed it was not an apology, but anyways, now how do I go back there and volunteer next Thursday? I know everyone else is on my side but I don’t know if I’ll be able to face the kitchen manager again… Especially because she will probably make little comments when no one else is listening (she literally told me she’d pray for me. No thanks. I can pray for myself, and I don’t need to have the gay prayed away anyway). Like… how???? Has anyone ever dealt with this?! Help!

    Thanks in advance, y’alls!

    1. Brownie*

      What I did with my weekly therapy appointments was said they were medical appointments and, for people who pressed, said they were physical therapy appointments. No one thought twice about it since physical therapy appointments are often scheduled once a week. I did that for an entire year of therapy and if anyone mentioned how long it was going on then I’d chirp something about “Yeah, but it’s still progress and each week is closer to when I won’t need it anymore!”

      1. valentine*

        I would leave the org because no one’s usefully on your side. They don’t know how to hire or manage. A forced apology is juvenile. I think there may be hope in that the bigot is so self-centered, she thinks you were confessing and that you really value her opinion, but I don’t know how you could make that work for you. Coming out wasn’t wrong. Everyone else involved is wrong. Where is the solidarity? Is no one going to put a pentagram on the floor next week or spill salt and not throw it over their shoulder? Is everyone afraid of her? She can’t defeat all of you. She shouldn’t be allowed to spread her hateful BS and everyone allowing that is helping her abuse you. I understand if the work is important to you, but there must be someplace you can do important work while people treat you well.

    2. londonedit*

      I can’t help with the second question I’m afraid (apart from to say WTAF???!!!???) but with the first I think you can definitely say something like ‘I have a regular medical appointment every couple of months’. You could add on ‘Nothing serious!’ if you wanted.

    3. Salieri*

      I also have counseling appointments in the morning before work. I asked my boss if I could come in late on X day because of a recurring medical appointment and make up the time and she said it was fine. I offered to give her proof of where I was going and she declined, said it was fine. It won’t look weird, especially if its so infrequent! If your boss says something like “Well, what’s the medical appointment for?” you could respond with “I know I’ve been open about health issues in the past but this is quite personal—is there a way we can reach an accommodation?” (That’s the word I’d use, because if she isn’t careful, she could be getting into some sticky ADA territory.)

    4. Yarrow*

      For the first thing, you can just say that you have an appointment whenever you have one. You don’t have to give anymore info than that. If someone asks you for more details, they’re the one being weird. I’ve also said “I’m going to be a series of appointments in the next few months” to a boss I know is cool with time off. I’ve used that for physical therapy and counseling and it’s fine.

    5. gecko*

      1. I think “medical appointment” is fine.

      2. Yikes, I’m sorry :( You didn’t screw up anything–the VC screwed up by not handling her beyond eliciting an “apology.” Can you talk to the VC again and tell them you want to be moved or have her shifts moved? Do you want to keep volunteering there? Would it make sense to go one more time as a “trial”, maybe warning the VC that this is what you’re doing and if you get harassed on shift you won’t feel comfortable staying out the shift or coming back?

      1. Lx in Canada*

        The VC did say she would talk to the other manager about it, and she was right there when the non-apology was given, so I am going to talk to her and see if the kitchen manager was/will be talked to at all before I return on Thursday… I will go one more time and if she says anything else I will ask if I can volunteer elsewhere in the organization. Thank you!

        1. Jules the 3rd*

          This seems like the right response. You didn’t screw up, you don’t deserve to face regular bigotry. If they won’t address it, you might consider whether you really want to continue to support them.

    6. Murphy*

      1. Medical appointment is fine. If anyone asks I’d just say “minor issue, nothing to worry about.” Nobody should press you on that.
      2. OMFG WHAT? You did nothing wrong, honestly. Is there any way you could work for anyone else, or avoid her? I know that might not be possible given the structure of the organization, but I think that’s all you can do if you want to keep volunteering there.

    7. Rusty Shackelford*

      I mean, for #2, I think you go back and you wear head-to-toe rainbow and you say “of course I couldn’t stay away; I have to spread the Devil’s plan to love as many people as humanly possible” and when she says she’s praying for you you say “Cool, I’m praying for you too, let’s see who wins” and you show her and everyone else there just how freaking awesome you are. But that’s just me.

      2. Jules the 3rd*

        I’d advocate for a little glitter and a cape, but that might be less than optimal in a kitchen.

        That #2 lady sucks.

      3. Dr. Anonymous*

        I’d get a lot of rainbow crap, and every time something bad comes out of her mout, smile at her and put on a rainbow button or a Pride scarf or a restive rainbow hair band and out it on.

      4. Insurance mom*

        Agreed. You did nothing ‘wrong’. Own it and claim it and if they give you guff you can use your awesome talents elsewhere

    8. Zephy*

      The kitchen manager is a horrid old bint. As another bi person, I hereby (herebi?) absolve you of any duty to care what she thinks. You can be civil and pay attention to anything she has to say that’s related to the work you’re doing, but you have my permission to tune her tf out when she starts in with her BS. You don’t have to say anything to her beyond “Karen, your comments are rude and they make me uncomfortable, please stop.” Heterosexuality is not a requirement for food preparation.

      It sounds like the VC has your back, so if the kitchen manager continues, please do absolutely go back to the VC and say “Karen is still being rude/openly hostile toward me on the basis of my sexuality.” Always name the behavior. The kitchen manager is the only person here who’s done anything wrong. Coming out to her may not have been the best decision you ever made, but you didn’t do anything wrong by doing so. You weren’t wrong to be excited about Pride, it wasn’t wrong to share that excitement. You are fine and valid, and you’re going to be okay.

      Re: counseling appointments, I think you’re OK just saying “regular medical appointments.”

    9. noahwynn*

      1) For a year I had weekly appointments to help deal with ADHD. I just said they were medical appointments. I did try to schedule early in the morning so I could go to work right after and just stay late that day. No one ever said a thing about it besides my boss who said to make sure my calendar was blocked off for the time I needed.

      2) I probably wouldn’t go back, at least when you know that kitchen manager is there. Also bi and I while I know people have different beliefs and opinions, I wouldn’t want to deal with the disrespectful comments all the time.

    10. Parenthetically*

      1. “I have an ongoing medical thing, nothing to worry about, but it requires appointments every 6-8 weeks. I can get several on a calendar at once, though, if that would help with coverage.”

      2. You didn’t screw up. She’s a bigot.

    11. Zennish*

      You get to be who you are, and you don’t have to apologize for it. Just because some bigot thinks God thinks what she thinks, it doesn’t give her standing to judge or comment on who/how anyone else is.

      The appropriate conversation for the coordinator to have with the kitchen manager (assuming they manage her) is something along the lines of “I need you to maintain a respectful and civil relationship with everyone in the org. if you want to continue here.” full stop.

      As far as going back, if you want to go, go. If she brings it up again, say something like “I respect that we each have very different beliefs, but it doesn’t have anything to do with our work here, so lets just drop it and get on with work.” If she continues, say “I’ve told you I want to drop this and get on with our work, I’m not going to discuss it further”. Keep contact to a minimum, but civil, and continue to report further issues to the VC, of course.

      Advice from a random internet stranger, no warranties expressed or implied.

    12. Daniela*

      1. Heck yes, just say “medical appointment” because that is what it is. I go to Reiki once a month and call it that too.
      2. Ugh, do you really want to keep volunteering there? But yes, she is completely out of line and you should fully expect support from your coordinator. Her behavior is unacceptable, even in a volunteer position.

    13. NothingIsLittle*

      Not bi, but ace, and yikes! My grandparents are god-fearing Catholics, but they have no problems having a gay grandson and love him just as much as any of the rest of us (even the one who got a girl pregnant out of wedlock; he was in hot water for a loooooooong time). Some people want to be hateful and will use any excuse they can to do so.

      If you decide to go back, and I wouldn’t judge you if you decided not to, and she makes any snide comments, you could always say, “I’m praying for you, too.” in a very concerned/compassionate tone. I don’t mean in a mocking, faux-concerned tone, but a genuine, “I’m concerned that you’ve come to the very troubling conclusion that this is even remotely godly and I honestly want you to realize your mistake, not because it will improve my life, but because it reflects poorly on you.” Obviously, you aren’t obligated to be nice, though, and a curt, “I’m sorry you feel that’s necessary/that way,” (an excellent non-apology) might be appropriate. I would encourage you not to engage or be snarky if you can help it, though, because it’s only going to fuel her bigotry. It might feel good in the short term, but I’ve found that it tends to encourage people to keep being nasty.

      (PS As others have said for your appointments, calling them standing medical appointments and indicating you’re not comfortable saying any more is usually enough)

    14. Seven hobbits are highly effective, people*

      Is there any kind of ombudsman or diversity officer in the org you volunteer with? If you, so can definitely let them know that this happened to you. If they are good at their job, they will then be able to work with you to find a way for you to feel more comfortable going back and volunteering again. Sometimes the first person you go to with your issue is so used to trying to “smooth out personality conflicts” that they go into that mode immediately even when it’s wildly inappropriate (such as your case: this is not a “personality conflict”, this is a bigot harassing you) and don’t take a step back to see the bigger picture. With luck, someone higher in the org will hit the roof on your behalf once they hear about this.

      I know this would be EXTREMELY not-ok in the org I work with regularly, but, well, that’s one of the reasons I continue to volunteer with the particular group I do so I’m not sure how common that is in the larger world. (An invited professional guest speaker got on our “do not invite back” list over similar behavior a few years back, so I know this is something our org takes seriously.)

    15. Mellow*

      That Pharisee needs to be around you so she can see how wrong she is. Hopefully, she’s not too old to learn. Go back if you can stomach it.

      Meanwhile, they need a competent volunteer coordinator who can manage such random occurrences properly, and with caring and professionalism.

      I’m sorry you experienced what you did. Some people just really suck.

      1. Mellow*

        Sorry – I should have written “kitchen manager” instead of “volunteer coordinator.”

  31. Anon for this*

    Hi Guys,
    I posted last week how my boss has been out a ton recently (both for business and vacation) at the hight of the busy season and I was overloaded. He expects me to get everything done but I don’t have the access in the system or the knowledge to do so. I have a bit of an update. Well, this week it blew up. 2 small things slipped through the cracks and my Boss was not happy. When I asked what I should have reprioritized to get this done and he told me nothing – everything is important and being overloaded is no excuse. He also told me this morning that he is gone all next week as well yesterday. Wish me luck!

    3. Anonymouse for this*

      Your boss sounds horrible.

      Are any of the items that your boss dumped on you going to be needed for his boss – in which case you could escalate to them for resolution/advice on prioritization while your boss is unavailable next week.

      1. Anon for this*

        So we are a weirdly set up that my boss doesn’t really have a boss. We are a smaller office and the main office is in another country, and oddly they won’t have the authority/ access to help. I am the first new hire in 10 years and we got our current system 5 years ago so one thought to think about this stuff.

    4. Kathenus*

      Document. I’d suggest deciding what you can/can’t get done, and do your own prioritization. Then email your boss and save a copy for yourself off-site that says something like ‘as I mentioned my schedule is overloaded and I have more tasks than time. Here is how I’m prioritizing, and as I told you in our meeting it is not possible to get everything done in a day/week/whatever’. This may not make him believe/accept this reality, but it will give you evidence if you get told later something like ‘you never told me that you couldn’t get things done’ if something critical goes undone due to the workload issues.

  32. HereKittyKitty*

    I have been job applying since like April and had an interview on Tuesday. I think it went well but I haven’t heard back yet. I also had a phone interview on Wednesday for a job I’d love more, but was told that process would be about 3-4 weeks. Whew. I’m so ready for a new job and all this waiting and considering has me anxious as fuck.

  33. Support Staff no longer!*

    Two weeks ago, I gave notice to my job after deciding to move to a different state. Had an interview on Wednesday and this morning, on the last day of my current job, I was offered my very first Librarian position. I AM SO EXCITED I CAN HARDLY CONTAIN MY SMILES.

    I got my MLS 4 years ago and tried to get a librarian position where I was living but it didn’t work out. I was beginning to worry that I would never get the “professional” position this long after getting my degree. I am so excited that I took the leap of faith to move to a different city and try for the position that I really want!

    3. Half April Ludgate, Half Leslie Knope*

      As someone preparing to take the “move to find a new job” leap, this is so heartening to hear! Congratulations!

      1. Wing Leader*

        Just to give you some more encouragement, I did that about three years ago. I hated my job, and I was getting married soon and my husband (who was a college student at the time) wanted to transfer schools. So, I told him to transfer and I would quit my awful job and move with him. While he was in class during the day, I spent my time at a Books A Million café applying to jobs online. I also drove around and went to hiring calls and interviews in person when I could. It took me about two months (luckily I had some savings that I was living on) but I finally found a job in my field and got hired. :)

    6. Fuzz Frogs*

      Yayyyyy! ONE OF US, ONE OF US. I’m new to my position too–it’s dreamy, isn’t it? Now to pay off my student loans……..

    9. Fortitude Jones*

      Congratulations! I know about the years wait to get a job in your field (mine was 8 years), but it feels so much sweeter when it finally happens :)

  34. moql*

    What is it reasonable to ask interns to do?

    The person who normally manages ours is out, and their normal tasks have dried up because he is the one who schedules them (not something that I have the ability to do). So far I’ve been giving them the easy parts of my job, but those are also the most boring ones.

    For context, they are paid $4 above minimum wage, but we live in a state with a low minimum wage, so that’s not actually that high. None of them are here because this aligns with their course of study, but they are hardworking and this is a solid-looking resume builder summer job for them. Their normal task takes place outside, active, and highly interactive with the community, so we hired people who want to do that sort of thing. All the tasks I’ve been giving them are inside, and involve no interaction with anyone. I can tell they are unhappy, but they’re all very hardworking and willing to help with anything I give them. Is it okay to continue giving them random parts of my job? What about things like stuffing envelopes? How can I make this job rewarding for them?

    1. purple otter*

      IMO stuffing envelopes, filing, boring data entry, other extremely boring tasks are all part of the intern experience. Besides, if it’s just for a week or two, the interns can learn to deal with as a part of professional life.

    2. MechanicalPencil*

      Stuffing envelopes is perfect. Copies. Reorganizing a storage area. Do you need to do any outbound calling for any reason to collect updated addresses?

    3. florals and stripes*

      Have you asked the interns themselves what they are interested in trying out or learning more about? Maybe there is some aspect they are curious about and you just don’t know yet?

      Is there something they could all work on as a team — like, “the company has this problem, come up with some ideas of what we could do to fix it,” and then they could present that or try out some of the ideas on a small scale?

    4. Half April Ludgate, Half Leslie Knope*

      I think as long as this isn’t 100% their job (that they’re doing SOME other stuff that fits), it’s fine. As an intern manager, I’ve always considered that part of the gig is learning that everyone has menial stuff to do. Sometimes new employees think a job’s going to be all rewarding and exciting, and sometime’s it’s just mundane. It’s a life lesson.

    5. WellRed*

      I think this is fine, but going forward, shouldn’t the normal manager have a plan for this sort of thing? (Maybe it was unavoidable).

    6. Retail not Retail*

      Boring repetitive duties may be part of the internship life, but check their contracts!

      I mean you say you’re paying them, not their school, but they may very well have contracts with stipulations about their work.

      I did – I was paid by my school, they got the money as a grant from the org, and “research artifacts” was my downtime work, not helping with horses or tourists.

    7. Buttons*

      Let them do some of that boring stuff- we all have to do mundane tasks, no matter our position.
      You could give them a project related to the community aspect of their job. I don’t know what that would look like, but say, for example, part of the interns’ summer job is to inform the community of upcoming programs. Let them design a community communication plan for one special event. Your company could benefit from their knowledge of social media and getting fresh eyes on the usual plan. This gives them the opportunity to work as a team, create a strategy, create and give a presentation. THIS is very valuable experience regardless of what their future plans are.

    8. The Man, Becky Lynch*

      It’s usually the admin jobs that get passed to interns. That way they get the flow of the office and the basics down.

      The interaction and the networking aspect is the real reward of being an intern in the end.

      If you can give them some research projects or say you need quotes on venue spaces, you could give them that kind of stuff as well. To give them some interaction experience. Lots of time they’re the best people to put together templates as well, if your office forms are dated or you are recently going through a paperless process, they can do the scanning/copying work.

      If they’re good, they’re going to gain something from that experience. I learned a large part of my job from starting out filing. It gave me an idea of “who” the customers were and what their invoices look like. Basic phones is always nice, it gives them that feeling of how to transfer calls and how to work with the people who utilize your business services, etc.

      It’s not about being rewarded like when you take on a full time job, with having big accomplishments to write home about. It’s about really getting that footing in the professional world.

    9. Rachel in NYC*

      As an intern, I can remember doing everything from cleaning out a storage room to preparing a simple motion to dismiss (when I was an college intern at a state legal agency.) Basic policy is whatever you have to do that you don’t have time for but is part of your job.

      Or have them clean out a storage closet.

      1. Buttons*

        To even get approval to have an intern with our organization the manager/team must lay out a specific project they want them to work on. We can pay a temp to clean the storage closet.

    10. Not So NewReader*

      I had files that needed to be cleaned up.
      I showed the intern what the basic job was.
      Then I said take your time and actually read the files. Get oriented to recurring forms. Follow the storyline in the file so you can see how things are typically handled on the paperwork end. I told her to aim for an overview or a general familiarity.

      Since there were many, many files to clean up I knew I had bought myself some time to find the next thing for her. This became a project for days where not too much else was going on.

      You do have an opportunity to work on projects that no one has time for. Because I had an extra set of hands I decided I would work on X. Where X was a project my boss and I had given up hope of ever doing. In the end, I was glad she was there because the project would have been a killer to do alone. She worked right along with me finding solutions as each problem came up. Her support was very meaningful to me and she actually seemed to be excited about the project.

  35. Melody Pond*

    Folks in the public K-12 education field in the US! I have a question for you: are “letters of interest” a thing in your field?

    My sister (let’s call her Jane) has been teaching overseas (she has a masters and all the necessary qualifications to teach in the US), and is now home and beginning to apply for jobs here. However, Jane is being told by a family friend of ours who teaches in a local school, that she ought to send “letters of interest” along with her resume to the principals of the schools she wants to work for, if they don’t have any job openings posted.

    Is this a thing in the education field? In every job I’ve ever held, this would’ve run the risk of being considered too pushy or aggressive, to send what’s effectively a cover letter and a resume to a hiring manager when there weren’t any job postings up.

    Thank you!

    1. irene adler*

      Is there a local teacher’s union/professional organization that your sister can reach out to? They would have the best answer as they would know what’s best to submit when applying for teaching positions.

    2. Friday Funsies*

      It definitely depends on the district, but a lot of administrators like to have a stack of resumes on file in case a position opens up unexpectedly. However, many districts will only consider your application if you have submitted application materials to the district office. Where I live, you cannot apply for a specific position if you haven’t already submitted documentation (resume, transcripts, letters of reference) to the district employment portal.

      1. Anonymous Educator*

        For what it’s worth, I’ve taught in both public and private schools, 9-12. Never written a “letter of interest” that wasn’t exactly the same thing as a cover letter.

      2. Melody Pond*

        This was exactly my thought – sounds just like a cover letter, except maybe there’s no job posting?

    4. Invisible Fish*

      Oh, no, no, no. No. All but the tiniest districts are going to have websites; she needs to go to the HR sections and follow their procedures for applying for a job. If somehow, someway, her letter of interest and resume didn’t go into the garbage immediately, many districts wouldn’t let a principal hire her because she hadn’t gone through the process. (I help our campus administrators go through resumes of folks sent via HR- stuff sent to the campus or principal directly is seen as an amateur move (at best) or the work of one of those people with “gumption” that you’re going to have to shut down (more likely).

    5. Elf*

      Really varies by area. Even just in NY, lower hudson valley is different from NYC is different from upstate.

      1. cmcinnyc*

        Speaking of NY, I’d check Dept of Ed databases and try to find out the name of each district superintendent’s EA and send a short email noting the overseas experience (briefly!) and asking the EA what is the best way to find/respond to job openings in that district. An EA has time to respond to you, and you’re just checking procedure so no need for CVs, detailed cover letter, and all that. Then she’ll have somewhere specific to start.

    6. Luisa*

      Broadly speaking, no – they are not a thing. In my experience, Friday Funsies is correct; there are some administrators who like/tolerate unsolicited resumes for when unexpected openings pop up, but I can’t think of anyone I know who actually got a full-time, permanent (i.e. non-temporary) teaching job using that strategy, and very few people who even heard back from schools where they tried this tactic. I know my principal gets these types of letters from time to time, and for the most part she just discards them without note. Applying to actual jobs is a much safer bet. If any of the districts in the area have “hiring pool” postings, she should definitely apply to those, since that’s really a formalized way of getting her resume out there for unexpected openings.

      In many districts, right now isn’t a bad time to be applying for jobs. Many districts continue to fill vacancies as they come up over the summer, and I know tons of teachers who got their first job weeks (sometimes days!) before the start of the new school year. I got both my first teaching job and my current (second) job the first week of August, both for an early September start. Also, some districts don’t allow lateral moves between schools after a certain point in the summer (in my district it’s after July 1), so the nature of the hiring pool may have shifted in her favor as an external candidate. (YMMV on this, though – I know this was the practice in both my previous district and my current district, but I don’t know if it’s the norm.)

    7. just a random teacher*

      I don’t think that’s a thing where I am (western USA). Resumes get collected sometimes at actual job fairs (my state has one big teacher job fair in the spring) even if there is no opening, but otherwise you apply through online portals. Sometimes there’s a single outside company that lots of districts run their applications through, and the best way to find out which one(s) are common in your area is to just start going to school district websites and clicking on the “jobs” section. With luck, it may connect to a larger online portal where you can search in multiple districts. Otherwise, I suggest just bookmarking the jobs page for each district, keeping all those bookmarks in a folder, and having a daily routine of opening all those folders in tabs to see what’s new and applying. Ten years ago, it was also possible to actually post your resume on at least some of those portals to be searched by other districts, but I don’t know if that’s still a thing. (I got cold-called for an interview once that way, but I think it’s because that district had a really high requirement of how many people to interview for each position so they needed more warm bodies in their applicant pool. I did not get that job and I don’t think I would have wanted to work in that district.)

      However, I actually got my most recent job from a cold call off of the sub list, so it’s also worth signing up to sub in all the local districts as well to get your name/resume out there. I’m not sure if they were just going down all of the people with my certification on the sub list in order, or if they’d asked around and I had a good reputation among whoever they’d asked, but they were my second or third choice subbing district and I’d never applied for a “real” position there before that call from a principal trying to round out his hiring pool for an August opening. (It wasn’t that I thought there was anything wrong with that district, it’s just that they always put “bilingual English/Spanish preferred” in their job postings, so I figured I didn’t have a shot since my Spanish wasn’t that great and I’d been prioritizing breaking in with some other nearby districts as a result.)

      If she got her master’s degree in the same part of the country she’s now looking for work in, she should also get in touch with them for advice. My school definitely knew a lot about the local hiring market and how to get a job, and would presumably also be willing to work with alums on that.

  36. Dragoning*

    So I work as a contracted employee through a recruiting company in the US. This means at least in this state I have to take a 30 day break every two years between contracts.

    I just got back from mine, and asked for a raise. They denied me one last year at my year mark (not even a COLA), and this year the recruiting company says they still haven’t heard back from the company paying them for my work. But all my fellow contracted coworkers in this department got raises after their break.

    They work for different contracting companies and have different roles than I do, but I can’t help also noticing that…well, they’re men and I’m a woman for legal purposes.

    My boss also put in his notice this week and thus has no real power over my pay right now.

    I’m not sure how to proceed from here. What do I do if they deny me again? That seems ridiculous.

    1. ICantThinkOfACoolNameToday*

      Why not see if you can get hired at their contracting company? And pursue the type of role they fill?

      1. Dragoning*

        They have different contracting companies. Also pay has to be approved by the company we’re contracted to work for.

        While we work in the same department, they literally have a different degree than I do. It’s not something I could transfer into easily (or that I want to do). Think of it like we’re a department that makes teapot boxes and they run the box parts off the line and I put it together.

        1. ICantThinkOfACoolNameToday*

          That’s going to make it tough to compare, then. Because if the role is different, there are probably different protocols for raises/etc. Especially if one role is more highly sought after than the other (although I have no idea if that is the case for you here).

          Can your contracting company find you another gig with a different/less cheap employer? Or do they just work in a limited field? I’ve always found that if I wanted a large jump in pay, I’d have to change jobs. And if you’re not even getting a COLA, you should be looking. Especially as you’ve been there at least 2 years, unless you’ve got a ton of short stints, that’s a decent amount of time. It sucks, but that’s how you move up.

          1. Dragoning*

            Oh, I’ve been contracted to the same company all two years. I actually hate my contracting company—most of us do. They never give PTO or holiday pay or sick days and have terrible insurance, etc. We’re all kind of waiting and hoping to get converted to employees eventually.

            If I was going to get a new job, it would be either with a different contracting company or find a new direct hire job. But my industry is pretty full of this contract nonsense.

            We have pretty similar situations as contractors—I know they didn’t get even a COLA in the year before their breaks, either.

            1. valentine*

              Do whatever is going to get you proper pay, raises, PTO, OT, and insurance. This isn’t sustainable. Does the regular furlough make you eligible for unemployment?

  37. Megsy*

    I have read here often but I have never posted here before. I have a question.

    In last Friday’s open thread there was a manager of a financial and economics firm posted about a new employee he inherited. She dressed in 1950s vintage and rockabilly clothing, makeup and hair. He said it was inappropriate for the workplace. When someone said a blazer could make this look formal he vehemently disagreed. I don’t understand why this doesn’t count as business formal. I wear this look all the time every day and I think it would fit even in the most conservative of workplaces. I also don’t agree that a blazer would not make it look formal. I didn’t think he should be making her change her whole look and buy a whole new wardrobe. Am I out of touch on this or was he out of touch?

    1. AndersonDarling*

      This is a blurry line. It depends if the outfits are on the costume side or the style side of the line. I can see how a rockabilly outfit could look like someone going to a themed party, and I can also see it put together with some modern pieces and being normal for the workplace. It really depends on the exact outfits and how they are accessorized.

      1. AndersonDarling*

        Oh, and it also depends if the Financial and Economics firm is that stuffy one that requires men to wear suits and women to wear pantyhose.

      2. NothingIsLittle*

        I’d agree here. I have a number of dresses from ModCloth that come out on the style side of things and are quite business appropriate. A blazer won’t make a dress that isn’t business-appropriate business formal, but it will make a dress that’s close (like it would work but it’s short-sleeved) business formal. Granted, business formal at a financial firm is different, since the industry itself is inherently quite formal (and comparatively more conservative in dress).

        I would like to point out that 1950’s makeup is almost always too flamboyant to be business formal, though, especially in the financial sector. Makeup in most businesses is typically expected to be minimal and a cat-eye and red lipstick are notable.

        1. Fortitude Jones*

          I have a number of dresses from ModCloth that come out on the style side of things and are quite business appropriate.

          As do I, and I worked for a conservative-ish insurance company and everyone always told me how I looked like Jackie Kennedy. Jackie was always classy and elegant, but more importantly, dressed appropriately for every situation she was in.

          I agree with you that the rockabilly makeup is too much in conservative workplaces. In fact, I think the reason my ensembles always received compliments (and people started dressing like me) is because I always kept my makeup minimal, my hair was rarely styled in an old fashioned way (so kept the whole look from looking like a costume), and my shoes and other accessories are (usually) modern.

          Full rockabilly in the workplace? If it’s truly business casual, probably, but in a conservative industry? No, it’s not appropriate.

    2. Not an Exhibit at the Petting Zoo*

      Business formal is different even from business casual. A full suit (matching pieces, not suit separates like a red blazer with a black skirt) is required for business formal.

      If we’re talking business casual…some offices might let you get away with a 1950’s look, some won’t. The 1950’s/rockabilly look leans a bit cutesy (full skirts, maybe a crinoline, etc). Business dress usually leans towards narrower skirts, and it’s harder to get away with a whole look – the hair and makeup and shoes would probably push the overall effect into a costume-y territory, which would not be professional.

      I’d say the best thing to do would be incorporate elements of the look into her work wardrobe. She’s probably got blouses she can wear with a straight skirt; she could do a vintage-y hairstyle with a more conventional look, etc.

    3. Moray*

      Rockabilly skirts tend to be very wide, sometimes even using tulle to fluff them out, and usually very colorful or patterned. Adding a blazer might bring that to business casual, in a quirky sort of way, but I don’t think it could be called business formal, and certainly not if the blazer matched the dress.

    4. Jerk Store*

      I worked in a conservative financial firm, and their are rockabilly *elements* that would work. But basically, you are expected to skew towards conservative dress, hair and makeup, especially of you’re customer-facing.

      So a cardigan would be fine, but a low cut halter hoop dress would probably not fly, even with a blazer. Eyeliner would be okay, but not a super thick cat-eye with bright red lipstick.

      1. The New Wanderer*

        This. If the dress code is business formal and everyone is wearing full suits, any themed look is not going to work. Elements maybe, as Jerk Store points out, but a full themed look of outfit, hair, and makeup will stand out in a negative way. A blazer over top will not cut it.

        Although it reminds me, I went to a work party once for a friend who works at a very casual high tech startup. One of the new employees came to the party in full Marilyn Monroe mode, and apparently she wears that look most days at the office. In that environment, I think it’s fine even if it stands out from the sea of jeans, t shirts, and fleece that literally everyone else wears because there’s no actual requirement to wear the tech uniform like there is to adhere to business formal.

    6. C*

      Personally I would think it fun, but when it comes to dress norms, even if what you’re wearing technically doesn’t violate the dress code, people can & will still judge you on it. There’s a risk that people (like the boss last week) won’t find it appropriate or will take you less seriously. I see some rockabilly outfits can have sheath dresses & pencil skirts, so throw a blazer on over those and you have an outfit that’s fine for an office. If you’re rocking a full tulle skirt and really big hair and full bright-red lipstick, well, it’s going to be unusual and people might see you differently. This also depends on your workplace, too–if your workplace tends toward more subdued dress, it’s obviously going to be more noticeable than if the office style is more varied.

    7. TPS Cover Sheet*

      Well, if she is into retro, she’ll show up as Frau Helga in a 40’s business suit…

    8. Jules the 3rd*

      Who’s out of touch depends on the customer’s expectations / business’s dress code. In most industries, including financial services, business formal reads as outdated, so he might want to check that. If he does need business formal (ie, they’re Hoare’s or something like that), then he’s right.

      Business formal overall is a really limited style: solid or small-pattern suits, usually in dark neutral colors. Pants or knee-length skirts in a narrow cut, like pencil or straight. Even A line is usually too wide, poodle is waaaaaay out of line. Rockabilly makeup is also not really business formal, it’s more like something people would wear at night now. Business formal makeup is muted and neutral.

      If all the men in the office are in grey suits, and this employee is in full rockabilly skirt and makeup, the mgr is probably right. But if some of the men are wearing sweaters or cream colored suits, then he’s wrong.

    9. Arjay*

      All the blazers in the world aren’t going to take a full skirt or circle skirt into the realm of business formal wear.
      I’m wearing a modcloth dress today that has a flamingo print on the skirt today. Our dress code is casual and I’ve gotten compliments on how cute the dress is, but I wouldn’t wear it to meet with business clients.
      There may be some articles or some parts of the look she can maintain, but popping on a blazer doesn’t turn rockabilly into business formal.

    10. The Man, Becky Lynch*

      I think you’re misinterpreting what’s business formal vs business casual. Formal is suits. Casual is a dress.

      Even in the 50s you weren’t wearing that attire as a secretary. It was a casual look.

  38. Sunday Morning Fever*

    I just had a conversation with my direct report about why his instinct to let someone we work with do a short cut around a project was not the right reaction. I told him all the reasons why the short cut could backfire and why it was important to follow the path we had set. He listened. He nodded. I’m not sure what would have made it a successful conversation, but afterwards it felt like I had yelled at a puppy. (To be clear — I didn’t yell, but I was direct about the issues). Now, I just feel frustrated with him for not recognizing that his idea was not a good one, irritated by his response (or lack there of) when I explained why it wasn’t a good idea and why we had the procedure we had in place, and just generally irritated.

    I might need alcohol to get through the rest of the day.

    1. Dragoning*

      I don’t know about your report, but I often kind of blank on what to say to face to face criticism. It doesn’t mean I’m not accepting there’s an issue or willing to work on it, but I often don’t know what to say besides “sorry” that doesn’t sound like an excuse and don’t sometimes I’m also just a trying very hard not to cry like I do when i get stressed.

      1. Sunday Morning Fever*

        I appreciate the insight. It does make me less irritated to consider that he might not know how to respond to these discussions. I suppose I was hoping he would say “I understand.” I definitely don’t want him to apologize for sharing his opinion (even if it was wrong.) I just want an acknowledgment that he knows what I’m saying and that it resonates.

        1. animaniactoo*

          My husband is a very very smart man. Who needs more processing time than I do when presented with something outside his perspective/current information/etc. It took me a long time to adjust to the idea that I needed to give him more time to have a reaction. And even now I still get frustrated at it sometimes. So, definitely get that frustration. But I would come back to it again in a day or so and say “Hey, you didn’t seem to have much reaction when we talked about that issue. I wanted to check in with you and make sure you’re clear about it and see if there were any concerns you had from your end.”

          It might be that he thinks you’re not taking into account issues X Y, and Z and that he really needs you to help him re-prioritize that even if X, Y, and Z are issues they are issues that you all will have to deal with because they are not as big issues as A, B, and C. And that while you might get away with taking that shortcut a time or two, here are the longterm reasons why it’s a bad idea to do it once, because once can become more than once and then you just start having issues overall. And that’s even if you DO get away with taking that shortcut the first time. And the decision about whether the risk justifies the result in that case is a level of responsibility that he doesn’t have and shouldn’t feel that he has – it should definitely rest with someone above him and he should not feel bad or pressured to make that decision himself.

          Obviously, that might not be the case – but just spitballing some potential stuff that might be feeding into his thought process. Particularly because it could result in that blank face nodding as “I know SMF has to give me this scolding, it’s just part of the way this thing works, but if I have to I’ll do it again because otherwise X & Y will get blown and this is just what we have to do to avoid that”.

    2. irene adler*

      Sometimes, it can be helpful to use a Socratic method kind of thing. Ask open-ended questions that require explanation.
      It gets him talking. That’s what you need here. He needs to justify – or realize that he can’t- the Short-Cut.

      Try the “Please tell me why we did Short-Cut in place of Accepted Procedure for the Widget project.”
      Then listen-don’t interrupt. Let him talk his head off.

      If he gives reasons, you can then ask why each of those reasons were enough to nix Accepted Procedure in lieu of Short-Cut (you want to see how he’s thinking). If you get “I don’t know” or “Accepted Procedure is a waste of time”, there is a serious lack of understanding and he needs to have the responsibility of performing projects taken away. Probably doesn’t want it anyway.

      Then “Tell me some reasons why Short-Cut might compromise the Widget project KPIs.”

      Then “So what was your plan when each of the KPIs were compromised?”

      Then you can discuss the importance of following the Accepted Procedure. And your expectation that he will follow Accepted Procedure to the letter from now on.

  39. Rosie The Rager*

    Follow-up on ADHD boss and co-worker with ex-husband in jail

    I am writing again after seeing the wonderful advice shared two letter writers this week: The person with ADHD and the person who job hopped from negative job to negative job.

    In the five weeks since I last contributed to the Friday open thread, my co-worker was terminated for calling off eight times in 10 weeks (working on two days a week).

    Additionally, I have received informal confirmation that my supervisor, Missy, has ADHD as I was beginning to suspect. This means I have some explanations for her odd and unprofessional behaviors.

    I now need some strategies for coping with her oftentimes contradictory and objectively incorrect. Metaphorically, I have nearly sawed me tongue in half biting it so frequently.

    Missy hired me in late December, and in that time I have worked with no electricity, no internet, going between two computers, and trained two co-workers who are no longer employed there. I have also played message taker for Missy’s personal appointments, including her caregiver stress management therapist, her pharmacy, her library, and the attorney of the neighbor with whom she’s engaged in a legal battle over trees on property lines.

    Because Missy delegates all external communications—social media, press releases, blog posts, etc.—to me, my portfolio is solid and my resume accomplishments are impressive, particularly for a part-time position. I am attempting to move from nonprofits to public relations, and this job is an integral part of that transition; therefore, I am giving it my all to go along to get along.

    Does the AAM community have any suggestions on keeping my temper in check, learning how to deal with Missy’s comprehension and mood issues, and maintaining a healthy outlook as my job search continues?

    Thanks for taking time to read!

    1. Just me*

      I’m not certain what your “official” role is, but maybe you could reframe your thoughts about it. Instead of thinking I’m XYZ and I shouldn’t have to do this, think “I’m Missy’s right hand man and she needs extra help due to a medical condition. I’ll treat her just as compassionately as I would someone with cancer because although she may not admit it, her ADHD can have just as profound an effect on her.” You’re going to have to pick your battles. Does it really matter if there were 14 people at the event and she said there were 20 – not really unless you are reconciling ticket money :)

      Good luck with the job search.

      1. Rosie The Rager*

        Just me, thanks for the comment! I appreciate your point of view and have implemented part of it in keeping me mouth firmly shut for some of Missy’s actions.

        When I mentioned that she behaved unprofessionally, I mean the following examples:

        1. Paying me late on several occasions, including the most recent check that should have been cut on Monday but was received too late Wednesday to cash. Thursday was a holiday, so I could not deposit it until Friday morning. Her rationale for this is: “I got pressed for time and couldn’t get to it today.”

        2. Asking me to lie about the status of the company and refer to it as a tax-exempt 501C3 nonprofit when it is classified as a small single-owner for-profit business that does pay standard business taxes.

        3. Lying directly to clients about how many employees she has (claims 19 has one part-time). She also informed me that I was to tell all outside people I am full-time but only in the office two days a week.

        4. Calling me over the weekend and keeping me on the phone for 20 minutes to discuss an issue that resolved itself four days prior. She also declined to pay me for my time.

        Given the full extent of her actions, I don’t know how much longer I can make allowances for her.

        1. The Man, Becky Lynch*

          Yeah, these have NOTHING to do with her ADHD, she’s simply a horrible person and awful at business.

          Curious question, do you use online banking? You can do electronic deposits from most banking apps! So you shouldn’t have to worry if it’s late or a holiday. You still do it through the app. Unless of course you don’t have an account and are cashing them at her bank for cash, then argh that hack won’t work.

          She’s straight up breaking the law. I would just keep lots of notes to pass on to the proper government agencies when you finally leave. Missing scheduled paydays and dodging taxes is pretty much what the IRS and DOR pounce on.

          1. Rosie The Rager*

            The Man, Becky Lynch, thanks for your comment and the wonderful suggestion about online banking.

            I will look into what my bank offers in terms of online options tomorrow morning.

            Also, thanks for confirming my suspicion that her actions are straight up illegal, not just unethical and questionable. Sometimes, I rationalize awful behaviors just to get through the day and keep a paycheck.

            1. The Man, Becky Lynch*

              It’s normal to assume that those in such a powerful important position would know better than to outright break the law.

              Payroll dates aren’t subjected to change!

              If the bank has an online app, then it’s online deposit. You take a pic with your phone camera, front and back and they can process it.

        2. Jules the 3rd*

          Whoah – she’s asking you to lie to customers and not paying you on time. That’s not just ‘odd and unprofessional’, that’s ‘house of evil bees’.

          What you need is to be completely not emotionally involved in this. She’s paying you for your time, you do what she requires to be done in that time, then you leave. If you have no emotional stake, it becomes easier to not have / express opinions.

          And maybe write the paycheck for her to sign. But with these practices, there’s probably financial problems as well.

          1. Rosie The Rager*

            Jules the 3rd, thanks for your outlook!

            I am working very hard to remove all emotion from my interactions with her.

            Also, I love your term “house of evil bees.” Would you be okay with my borrowing it for future use?

            Thanks, Jules the 3rd!

        3. Bortus*

          1. thats probably against the law if you’re in the US.
          2. I definately wouldnt lie about 501C3 status
          3. This is a stupid lie but one thats likekly to bite her in the butt, not you
          4. If you’re hourly (which I suspect you must be based on jobs responsibilities) , this is also against the law

        4. Lobsterp0t*

          This is… not ADHD. Sure her baseline information processing speed, planning/prioritisation and impulsivity might be more “off” than average as a result of it, but I wasn’t diagnosed until age 33-but-two-weeks, and I wasn’t instructing my reports to lie/commit fraud/not paying them(?!) or otherwise behaving in a downright unethical way.

          This is her. Please don’t let your experience of her lead you to expect this of all ADHD adults!!

    2. FuzzFrogs*

      Yikes on bikes! The unprofessional stuff you replied to just me about is…definitely not ADD stuff, and I can see why you’re having trouble dealing with it. I feel like others will say this, but you should keep whatever proof you can collect that these requests to lie to the public come directly from her, especially the non-profit one; I’m not experienced with non-profits but something tells me that lying about that could get very problematic down the road, and you don’t want her to claim that it was your idea as the press person. It just seems too easy for this to fall back on you somehow.

      Regarding Missy’s comprehension and working with it: I have ADD and in the workplace I know I have a lot of communication issues, so I really try to make all conversations as clear as possible. I also used to have an ADD supervisor (you’d think we’d speak the same confused language, but no–it just compounds the issue…). Something I’d say a lot to my supervisor when she was assigning a task would be “Do you have a particular vision in mind for X, or do you want me to come up with something?” She often forgot to mention what she’d decided X was going to be like, and we went through a few cycles of me self-directing myself on projects only for her to go “no, that’s not what I wanted at all” before I included this question. And, make sure to end conversations with a recap of any concrete actions she’s asked you to take. “So you want me to e-mail Y, make social media posts about A, B, and C, and contact J about Y? Preferably by next Friday?” I find using these helps clear up contradictory statements–it gives her a chance to verbally sign off on her directions, or adjust them, and clarify any wishy-washy statements. And if you find yourself in any circular conversations, where it seems like she’s responding with non sequitors or confusing tangents–clarify what you understand based on her statements and where she’s losing you, or where you’re losing her. Recapping a timeline of what’s been done can be a good start! Especially with her not understanding when an issue was resolved, I might go, “Let me clarify my side of things. We first heard about issue X last week and person A said they needed Y and Z aspects amended about issue X. I talked to you and you said you wanted to do [thing] to fix it, and told me to do it. I was working on it when person A called back and said they’d figured it out themselves, and I e-mailed you about my phone call with A at that time. It seemed the issue was fixed. Was there something else I needed to do?”

      1. Rosie The Rager*

        FuzzFrogs, what an amazing template for ensuring work expectations are met! Thanks for taking time to share your experience and ideas with me. I genuine appreciate it.

  40. aeldest*

    Hoping to crowd-source some ideas as to what kinds of jobs I should be looking for. I’m moving to a different state in a month to join my fiance, and honestly have no idea what I should be applying to.

    Fairly recent grad. I have a bachelor’s degree in Global Studies, mostly because I took a bunch of language classes and the credits would apply to that major (I really regret my major, but it’s too late to do anything about it now).

    My work history: in addition to various retail/call center stuff, I have 2 years experience working as a sales assistant in the event industry, and 1 year experience as a document specialist in international trade. I am a very hard worker, and all my bosses have loved me. I am good at anticipating needs and am very efficient (according to my last performance review).

    Work duties I really enjoy: I like tracking data and figuring out how to be more efficient/finding the weak links in a process. I like writing procedure manuals and reports and such. I really like researching things and providing an overview of a situation or product. I love when I can find info in unorthodox ways–example, my boss wanted to contact someone at a company but didn’t have his email/phone #. There was a language barrier so we couldn’t just call the company and ask to be transferred to him. We tried LinkedIn but the guy hadn’t logged in in over a year. I looked at the people following the company on Twitter, found the guy by comparing profile pictures to his LinkedIn photo, and my boss DM’d him and got the guy’s work email address. I like being a “gal Friday”/jack of all trades. I actually really like customer service and would do that forever if it paid more.

    Things I dislike: I *hate* being responsible for someone else getting their work done. I’m happy to follow up with people until something gets done, but in my current position I have to wait on third party documents and it reflects poorly on me if I don’t get them on time, and it drives me crazy because I literally have no recourse except to call them over and over asking when it’ll be done (which risks them getting annoyed with me and taking longer out of spite). I dislike doing very repetitive work, though I know there’ll be some of that in any job. As bad as it may sound I’d like something a little “lower stakes”; in my current job if I miss a detail we could be out tens of thousands of dollars with no way to fix it, and there’s nobody double checking my work, so it’s very stressful.

    My dad suggested looking into business analyst positions. It does look interesting to me, but most entry level postings I see require a finance/statistics/comp sci degree.

    Anyone have any suggestions as to what jobs I should look into?

    1. Anonymous - Philadelphia*

      My impression is to look at Administrative Assistant positions, and when you interview be picky about how the boss describes their working style (and how others describe it). Some Admin Assistant positions function a lot more like a project manager, which it sounds like you would like.

      I work in the nonprofit fundraising world and you might think about Prospect Research as a field. It’s collecting public information on prospective donors and presenting it to fundraisers so they can prepare for donor meetings, and also to get a better idea of how much the person could give philanthropically to the organization. It’s a lot like internet sleuthing, but for a good cause. :) You may look for entry-level positions in nonprofit Development or Advancement (different places call it different things) where you could build up some skills in that environment and transition into prospect research.

      1. Wonky Policy Wonk*

        I would second this! I work with government and Executive Assistants in our line of work aren’t assistants to executives, but executives of assistants (similar to Executive Directors). These roles are all about project management, like coordinating timelines, managing stakeholder relations and creative problem solving, which sounds like something OP would really excel at.

    2. Sales but not sales*

      I’m not in this department but something in Learning & Development might be up your alley. I’m not sure what qualifications are needed but I’ve worked with two people in that department. One was responsible for documenting current processes and then finding ways they can be improved. The other was responsible for documenting and learning new initiatives so they could teach the rest of us how it works, FAQs, goals, etc.

    4. CatCat*

      An analyst position sounds good to me. Business analyst is not your only option. Things like compliance analysts or research analysts are out there. I started my career with a BA as a market research analyst. I actually ended up there through a temp situation that became permanent. So temping may be a good way to explore some options.

    5. JJ*

      Technical writing or content design maybe.

      NB content design is not the art kind of design.

      1. Fortitude Jones*

        I second the technical writing suggestion if OP is a good writer (liking to write and being good at it or sometimes very different things). If her language skills are strong, translation based jobs may even be a good idea.

    6. Jules the 3rd*

      International trade would be hot for manufacturing firms. Business Analyst is a good job role to aim for, but Trade Compliance or Transportation would also be areas that let you do what you like.

    7. Sleepytime Tea*

      I’m an analyst, and yes, a business analyst position sounds like something you might enjoy! But yes, it will be hard to break into with your current degree (I say this as a business analyst who has a degree in English).

      Your way to getting there is to really play up the international studies thing as a strong point. I don’t know exactly what your degree entails, but language classes are REALLY USEFUL as an analyst. I did this with my English degree. So to start with, when you’re an analyst you a frequently “interpreting” things in one jargon to another. You have to get requirements for a project from someone who probably isn’t technical, and then translate it into the type of technical jargon necessary for the person receiving the requirements to do the work. It’s also very customer service based. You work a lot inter-departmentally.

      Don’t look for analyst positions in things like finance. That is more likely going to be a data analyst type position, and if you don’t want to be digging in the numbers and don’t have the technical skills or finance background to create forecasting reports and stuff like that, and you’ll need skills like how to use reporting tools or querying databases. Look for analyst jobs that talk about things like writing requirements.

      One thing you WILL be stuck with, and this is just going to be true in general for almost any job in this area, is you will be hounding people for information and waiting on them. It’s part of the gig. But you can ask in interviews about things like whether or not there is a project manager, what the process is when you’ve hit a roadblock getting information from another team/vendor/whatever, and get a sense of the level of all that which you would be dealing with it.

    8. Kimmybear*

      Check out international development, international exchange, international education. Look at study abroad/international student offices at local colleges and universities as well as “world trade” organizations near your new locale.

    9. HRIS grunt*

      Late but I had a similar “weird” background and similar likes and dislikes, and I really like my job as an HRIS analyst. Basically my job entails helping my company’s HR department implement and run this HR system (which keeps track of employee hires, fires, pay changes, you name it). There’s a lot of data tracking, creating manuals and procedures and reports, making them run better, learning how to use the system by using the system. There’s even a bit of customer service (aka troubleshooting and teaching users). There’s a little bit of data entry/repetitive stuff but if you find a way to do it better, then there’s less of that! And because of the checks the system has, it’s very rare that anything I do will never be checked, or one mis-type would cause huge issues with no way to fix it.

      I got into my job with minimal experience but I was familiar in the language/culture of my branch office. I don’t know how you’d go about finding something similar, but if you could use some of your language skills, you could act as a bridge and at least be able to pick up other skills. Other “analyst” positions might be similar!

  41. Overeducated*

    I’m back at my job after a temporary assignment to another office, and…I’m actually happy about it! I wasn’t expecting that! It’s not my “dream job” in many ways and there has been some difficult interpersonal stuff in the office, but jumping right back into something that I know how to do and keeps me busy has been validating, and the atmosphere just seems noticeably less tense under our new interim manager. Yay.

    The interesting thing I found out yesterday is that the next interim manager will be selected competitively (long timeline for getting to the permanent hire), and my immediate coworker and I are eligible to apply for the post. I’m very interested in the work and think it would be great experience, but it’s for four months – during which I’m planning to be on maternity leave for two. Kudos to my current manager for telling me anyway and not immediately writing me off as a potential candidate, but I’m just not sure it’s that useful for me personally or for our department if I could only serve half the time. I’d also be ineligible for telework as a manager, and I have an hour long commute and plan to work until I actually give birth, so telework could be useful if those last couple weeks get uncomfortable.

    Is it reasonable to not pursue this opportunity due to the timeline, or am I unnecessarily limiting myself and my career by not applying? Should I ask my manager for advice? I’d appreciate a gut check here.

    1. Rusty Shackelford*

      I assume you’re already pregnant? If so, I think it would be a bad move to accept a temporary job when you know you’ll be gone for half of that time period.

    2. animaniactoo*

      It is totally reasonable to say the logistics do not work for you and in fact might harm your potential career growth if you become known as the “person who took a 4 month position she knew she couldn’t show up for half of”.

      I’m guessing that part of the reason your manager kept you in the loop is with the idea that you might change your maternity leave plans for a shot at doing this (if he’s even aware of them).

      Life’s a trade-off. Other career opportunities will come around. Don’t feel like you have to grab this one just because it’s there.

      1. Overeducated*

        That was another concern I had, that it could actually be bad to do it at this time. But I am far enough along in the pregnancy that management is well aware and I think would just select someone else if that were the case, before it got to the point of harm for me or the department.

        Thank you – I am so used to trying to take advantage of every opportunity that validation that it’s ok to let one pass by is helpful.

    3. Just stoppin' by to chat*

      TL;DR – It’s okay to say this is not the right time in my life, and I have other priorities right now.

      Agreed with what others are saying about this not being the right time. Especially because you don’t know how you’ll be feeling after having a baby, and not taking on a new managerial position (and hopefully being able to telework) will likely help your transition back after maternity leave. However, I also get the feeling of not wanting to limit yourself. I’m also a woman, and I’ve heard the rhetoric for years of “leaning in” and not limiting yourself just because of how our society views women as “less than” Maybe that’s extreme, but I’m guessing you have heard similar messages.

  42. Argye*

    I posted here last week about having recently interviewed for 2 faculty positions, and was waiting to hear back on either. I heard back on the first one in a rather surprising way this week. I had done a phone interview with them 3 weeks ago, and heard that it was received “positively” (whatever that means) and then nothing. I got a phone call on Wednesday that the Provost wanted to have a phone interview with the finalists this week. I did that yesterday, and I think I did well, but one thing took me completely aback. I asked about maybe starting in January and got a hard NO.

    They will let me know on Tuesday if they want me to be there – a small town 800 miles from where I am now – on AUGUST 1st. No flexibility. That would give me 2 weeks to find a place, and get myself, 2 dogs, and a parrot, not to mention household goods 800 miles away. It’s a small town – when I looked on Zillow, there was exactly 1 rental house that allowed dogs. (Note: one of my dogs is a Pitbull mix, which also doesn’t help.) Yes, I could leave stuff here and go back and forth to close up this house, but the salary they’re offering is at the very low end of acceptable, so I really can’t go too long with a mortgage and rent. It’s unclear if they will offer to cover any moving expenses. I’m guessing not.

    I …. just don’t know that I can do this. The alternative is staying here and Adjuncting, which is not guaranteed, and thus is also not a great option.

    I’m pretty completely freaking out. This is probably my last shot at getting another faculty position. It feels stupid to turn it down over logistics, but! That’s a lot of logistics. I feel like I’m between a rock and a hard place.

    1. Anonymous - Philadelphia*

      Is there any relocation assistance you can negotiate from them given the logistics? A sign-on bonus or something that could cover a few months rent at least and the actual moving costs?

    2. Argye*

      I should add – I’m teaching summer school, and I give my final in that class on July 29.

    3. animaniactoo*

      Stopgap solution: Store most of your stuff and take the bare minimum to get you through 2 weeks or so in new town. See about staying somewhere intended to be fairly short term in new town (think an extended stay hotel or air bnb setup), and use that time to list your house and hunt for housing that really works for you in new town. Bring a box or 2 of household essentials that will let you move into housing there if you find something right away. Use an air mattress if you gotta.

      Is there anyone who can watch your pets for you for a few weeks?

      Does that sound like it has potential for you? Gets you some breathing room around making this move in a way that makes long-term sense for you even if you have to short term hurry and get over there?

    4. Zephy*

      You should ask about relocation assistance. The worst they’ll do is say no. It’s an 800-mile move for you, it’s not unreasonable to ask.

      I’d still see if you can arrange for someone to care for your animals for a few weeks while you secure housing in the new town, just because moving with animals is a hassle under the best of circumstances.

    6. Sunday Morning Fever*

      I was once in a toxic job and was interviewing somewhere that was a good title, more money, solid move. Except that the organization was disorganized (forgot they had scheduled an interview with me), and the head of the department was an a*********. He was argumentative, rude, and condescending in my interview. And because I needed to leave my job, I was REALLY torn about what my decision was going to be. It literally doubled my stress levels. And that’s when I realized that the difficulties of taking the job and the lack of confidence I felt about being able to succeed meant that it was not the right job for me. (I ended up finding a great job 6 months later — and I’m still here years later)

      All that is to say that this job doesn’t seem very flexible and perhaps they don’t need to be. If it’s otherwise fantastic and ticks all the other boxes, maybe the added stress of moving is worth it. But, if you’re not in love with what you’ve heard, the inflexibility might just be the straw that needs to break the camel’s back.

      1. Fortitude Jones*

        +1

        Earlier this year, I interviewed for a job that seemed fantastic on paper, but after speaking to the folks I’d be dotted line managing and the hiring manager, it was just “eh.” The salary was FANTASTIC (I was looking at $80-90k), and I wanted to take it if only for that reason; however, the office was way too far for me, a non-driver, to navigate and they weren’t flexible at all about teleworking (even though other people worked from home). As hard as it was to pass on that money, I did – the logistics were just impossible to make work and I didn’t love it enough to make sacrifices like taking a rideshare service to work every day. I’m glad I passed though – my current company offered me a role around the same time, and I love what I’m doing way more than what I would have been doing. I make $10k less than the bottom of the other job’s range, but I don’t care – I’m in a position that makes me feel fulfilled (and I get to work from home full-time!).

        OP may need to let this one go so something better can come along.

    7. deesse877*

      Is this a small school? And/or in a rural area?

      If yes to either or both of these, I recommend two strategies:

      1) tell them everything. Places like that usually highly value inter-faculty relationships, and it will be appropriate to talk a lot about pets in particular. So you can get the answers you need to make a decision, with the benefit of local knowledge, and without damaging any future professional relationship.

      2) look into commuting from another town or a rural rental. Not forever, just for the year.

      1. blink14*

        Agree with both, particularly the second suggestion. The university I went to was in an old industrial city in a very economically depressed area. Basically the city and surrounding towns only functioned because the university was there. A lot of faculty lived within an hour radius, and some in another state, the state line was about 30 minutes away. If you feel this is the right professional choice, you may have to make some temporary living arrangements with a less desirable commute until you figure things out. Good luck!

      2. Federal Middle Manager*

        This. Small colleges will often let new/visiting professors use other professors’ houses if they’re out on sabbatical / vacation, etc. Also, they’re also likely to know someone who has a guest house or whatever that isn’t formally advertised but might be available to the right person.

    8. No fan of Chaos*

      Go to your Vet and get a letter that describes your pit as a cattle dog. We did this and it avoids a lot of problems with pits. Yes, I know-anything for my dog.

    9. WellRed*

      This doesn’t sound doable, but I want to mention that Zillow may not be the best resource in a given area for rentals. I list/look exclusively through Craigslist and NextDoor.

    10. Violette*

      Input from industries other than academia isn’t really helpful here; this kind of search is sui generis.

      1) Is this job tenure-track? Because if not, if all this hassle is for a one or two year visiting appointment at a low-prestige place, it’s not definitely not worth it.
      If it is tenure-track, and you’re considering turning it down, then it’s high time to start looking for non-academic, or at least non-teaching jobs. When you say, “This is probably my last shot at getting another faculty position,” I believe you – and not because there’s anything wrong with you! This is a structural shift in higher education.
      So does this sound worth it to be a professor? (No is a valid answer! But be clear on the question.)

      2) There are almost certainly more rental options that you didn’t find on Zillow. Small town landlords, especially in college towns where they don’t want student tenants, probably rely more on word of mouth. The college may know someone who’s going on sabbatical and would rent their house to you cheaply for the first semester. The college might not offer cash relocation assistance, but they will probably have a lot of knowledge to share.

      1. just a random teacher*

        Violette’s advice sounds pretty solid to me. (Higher education hiring is completely awful, which is why I’m in k-12.)

        When I was a new k-12 teacher in a small town, the school secretary was a big help with reaching out to people about rentals. “Teacher” tends to be a profession that reassures landlords that you’re boring and responsible, and I suspect “professor” is similar.

        Individual landlords (rather than companies) are also possibly flexible on “no pets” policies if you spin a good story. My small-town landlord didn’t want pets “again” but had no problem with me having my mom’s dog visit occasionally, and my stepfather tends to list his rentals as “no pets” but cave once he sees a picture of the dog in question and hears a story about what a good dog it is and how much it would like to have a nice yard like [rental]’s to play in. Most landlords would rather rent to a professor than student, and so might be particularly likely to flex a pet policy to get an older tenant who probably won’t throw large parties and will mow the lawn.

        Is it possible to leave your dogs with someone else for a few months while you’re getting settled, then bring them to your new home over winter break, or next summer if you have to take a one-year rental that doesn’t allow pets? I get the reasons why that isn’t a pleasant thing to do, but it might be the best way to make this stressful situation work.

      2. None the Wiser*

        This is good advice. If you want to remain in the academy, this may be your last, best shot. They obviously want someone in place for the fall semester.

        I saw your post last week. Owing to the current nature of academia, you are at a professional fork in the road. This isn’t so much about moving (which is stressful, but you’ll manage!), as which road it makes sense to take.

        1. Argye*

          Not sure anyone will see this, but, this – yes, THIS exactly. It’s not so much this job as – is this the road I want to take?
          I reached out to a former colleague at the National Science Foundation (I worked there for 3 years previously). It seems likely that I could go back. No guarantees, of course. But, a choice between a job with no tenure at a super-small school in the middle of nowhere with orange flags, or going back to DC? No choice. I can leverage NSF to go various directions. Small school? Not so much.
          So, yeah, it’s not so much that do I want to take this job? It’s do I want to go this direction in my life? And there may not be a way to go back and change my mind if I make a mistake. It feels like a very high-stakes decision.

      3. Argye*

        The College doesn’t give tenure because it was cancelled years earlier (?), but they’re hoping it will be reinstated soon. It sounds like there has been massive turnover at the upper levels, which is why it took them so long to get back to me.
        That reads like a fair amount of institutional instability to me, which is another source of concern.
        I’m definitely thinking of leaving academia. This entire event has made it clear to me that academia really may not be where I want to be anymore. I enjoy teaching, but I’m pretty fried on the stress levels that are associated with a faculty position.

    11. Dr. Anonymous*

      In a small college town, most rentals won’t be on Zillow. The department se secretary and other faculty will almost certainly know people who own rental property.

  43. Tired Aunt*

    A couple weeks ago my brother was unexpectedly hospitalized. The first few days of crisis I took off from work to care for his elementary aged kids. I’m an intern coming up on the end of a year long internship. My boss was very understanding and encouraged me to take as much time as needed. We didn’t expect it to last this long and things have just gotten worse so I ended up taking quite a bit of time off. I’m on a stipend with no official PTO, just “work it out with your supervisor.”

    I’m very grateful to my manager for being so flexible, and it’s nice I’m not taking a hit in my pay. I know a lot of it has to do with my excellent attendance until now, but how can I possibly thank my manager and recover from this? I feel guilty for missing so much work.

    1. Catsaber*

      I think the best way to say “thank you” is just to keep doing an excellent job at work, but also tell your boss personally. Just a brief, sincere “I really appreciate you working with me on this” is enough. Kind words are often the best way to show appreciation.

      1. Ama*

        Yup — these kinds of things will happen periodically in your career, and if you are lucky enough to have a manager/employer that will work with you the best thing you can do is keep doing good work as you are able.

        Since you are an intern, if you get any kind of end-of-internship meeting or chance to offer feedback, that would also be a great time to say how much you appreciate their flexibility during a difficult time. (I did this during my year end review a couple years ago when I had had to take a lot of personal time off to deal with some pretty difficult personal circumstances that all hit one right after the other.)

    2. My Brain Is Exploding*

      Write a letter! First, to your supervisor. IME people cherish these written notes of appreciation. Second, to your supervisor’s boss. Not with all the details (how much time off, etc.), m ore along the lines of “something came up and supervisor was understanding and worked with me to find a solution,” and then add some statements about other things supervisor did to make it a great internship. Trickle-down praise is always nice!

  44. Anonymous - Philadelphia*

    Hello! I’m wondering if anyone has recommendations for a company that does diversity and inclusion training that’s actually good/effective.

    I handle hiring, talent management, and professional development for my department (am internal but liaison to HR) and I’d love to educate our team more on what diversity and inclusion really means and how we can put it into practice in a thoughtful way. I don’t want something hokey that’s like a dull compulsory training, but something more like, what are your unconscious biases? How can you make sure you are creating a diverse and inclusive work place? What does D&I really look like when done well?

    Any recs for effective trainers you’ve used or learned from in the past would be appreciated! (I hope this kind of post is allowed?)

    1. Anonymous - Philadelphia*

      I should add that I’ve explored internal options and we really don’t have the resources to do this effectively in house.

    2. Sales but not sales*

      This might not be feasible if you aren’t located in a bigger city, but my company, in addition to compulsory diversity training, asks/pays non-profits/activists to come in to speak on the issues that affect the population they work with/for. For example, for pride month, we had speakers from an LGBTQ professionals group. Since they were all from that community, they spoke personally about their issues and I think that’s more effective than trainers rambling on. We also had a non-profit working towards preventing suicide come in to speak about homelessness, mental illness, homophobia, etc that affects their callers.

      1. Anonymous - Philadelphia*

        That’s a great idea actually to do in addition to something more formal. We’re in the medical field too so that would be great in terms of specific challenges for care for certain groups (trans and nonbinary patients come to mind).

        I do want something that makes the connection really directly in terms of our office and diversity. Something like, if you want diverse hires you need to open your mind in looking at someone’s background, education, etc. I think a lot of people think, “well if a black person with the right background came in of course I’d hire them just the same” without realizing that the “right background” itself is often a construct that systemic racism and inequity prevents a lot of people from achieving.

    3. Lucette Kensack*

      You should start by assessing your team’s approach to cultural difference. The Intercultural Development Inventory is a tool that both individuals and teams can use to understand their orientation to working across difference. You’d hire a consultant to administer the assessments and develop a training/action plan based on the results. They can also provide one-on-one coaching to folks who take the assessment.

      1. Natalie*

        My org uses an IDI-based training. I wouldn’t say I’m an expert in this field, but compared to trainings I’ve had to do at previous jobs I found it much more robust and not hokey or just box-checking.

        1. Lucette Kensack*

          Yeah, the IDI is research-based. It also doesn’t prescribe any specific training; it guides you to determine what kinds of interventions (trainings, readings, etc.) are going to be impactful for your specific situation.

    4. Doing too many things*

      Check out something like the Forum on Workplace Inclusion. In addition to the direct work they do, I’m sure they can recommend trainers/organizations in your area.

    5. annnd....anon for this one*

      we had a diversity training that was so bad that at the end of the training everyone agreed that we had all bonded very well over our mutual dislike of the training.

      Be cautious of ‘Stir-Fry Seminars’

    6. Loren*

      My company did a big round of unconscious bias training with Steps Drama (https://www.stepsdrama.com/diversity-inclusion-and-unconscious-bias/) and it was really interesting. They came in and interviewed something like 75 people at all levels of the company, experience levels, backgrounds, etc., then constructed scenarios using information that was super-specific to our actual work. (The scenarios are performed by professional actors; participants are actively involved in discussion but there’s no role-play involved.) The downside is that they’re based in the UK so it’s expensive and logistically challenging to have training with them done regularly, but I think they will do “train the trainer” kinds of things to scale it up after they’ve done the initial groundwork.

    7. Anonygrouse*

      My organization did one for all managers through Perception Institute and it was very well-received; they plan to roll it out to all staff soon. Their training covers some cognitive science behind implicit bias, stereotype threat, etc. and offers good, even evidence-based strategies and interventions (both for individuals/interpersonal relationships and for the organizational leadership). I was just an attendee, but I’ve done a lot of D&I trainings in my higher ed and non-profit career, and this one was far and away the best.

    9. G. Lefoux*

      Our organization did IDIC with Beth Zemsky. A good solid intro that spoke to many people with many different levels of experience. A lot more “I can actually use this” type tools than other trainings; however, it is still very concept-focused overall, which is leading us to develop more trainings internally to springboard off it.

    10. LCS*

      Lionel Laroche (google / YouTube him) provided excellent training on cultural diversity to leaders and Diversity and Inclusion network members across six or seven sites spread across Canada at our company. He was fantastic, really good feedback from virtually all attendees. Looking at options this year to extend the sessions to a broader audience.

  45. SuperShortHair*

    I’m a woman in my mid 30s and I gave myself a buzz cut last night (well, technically my husband did it, but it was my decision). It’s been fun/awkward seeing everyone’s reactions at work. That was making me the most anxious…I don’t really care what people in my personal life think about my appearance, but I was worried my boss would not handle it well. He’s handling it fine, though. I mean, he obviously doesn’t like it, but he’s being good-natured about it and hasn’t made any inappropriate comments. I did get a “jiminy cricket!” out of one guy, and that was amusing.

    I was worried that I wouldn’t look “professional,” but I work in higher ed IT and we’re pretty dang casual on a whole. But I made sure my eyebrows were impeccably groomed and I stepped up my outfit a little bit. I’m still getting used to how I look. I had an undercut pixie previously, and have done a wide variety of styles/colors over the years, but this is a first for the buzz cut.

    Fellow commenters, tell me about a time you had a major appearance change at work! Help me feel better about my impulsive decision!

    1. Yarrow*

      Congrats on the cool new haircut! I’m about the same age and started my job with dreadlocks cut into a pretty standard hairstyle and recently shaved the sides and back, leaving the rest long/asymmetrical. It looks awesome and still well groomed despite sounding super edgy. A nice suburban paralegal came up to me and quietly “confessed” that she admires it and had always wanted a mohawk when she was younger. It’s never too late, Karen!

      1. SuperShortHair*

        Thanks! I have received a few of those already. :) Your hair sounds awesome!

        The best part was that I got to sleep in 30 more minutes.

    2. SuperShortHair*

      By “unprofessional” I mean, a scraggly teenager. I have a really young-looking face and I don’t wear makeup, so I get mistaken for a student quite often.

    3. Yorkshire Rose*

      I work in a more conservative office but I did have my professionally dyed blonde hair changed to a fiery red. My hair appointment took place after work. The next day we had a department wide meeting. The reaction was, “wow!” And I kept getting compliments for days after that. People were impressed that I could pull off both blonde and red.

    4. Notthemomma*

      During seminar season I met some otherwise remote coworkers with reddish hair. The next time we met – two weeks later, I was blazin’’ blonde. And then in another two weeks jet black hair. They joked about not knowing what to look for in a crowd, but all was good.

      LOVE the looks of crew cuts!

    5. CmdrShepard4ever*

      I don’t know if it really counts as a “major” appearance change. I have what I call a lazy hair style, I will cut it very short like a 3 with clippers, and then let my hair grow out for about three months (my hair grows fast) until it gets long again and I have to work to keep it groomed then I get it cut super short again. So every three months I have a drastic change but its on a “schedule” and my coworkers are used to it.

    6. Nanc*

      Full disclosure: this was the late 1970s/early 1980s.
      I left work with a voluminous Farrah Fawcett do (remember giant hot rollers?!) on Friday and came in with a Princess Diana pixie on Monday. To my chagrin, most people thought I just had my hair up . . .
      It was so much easier to take care of and I realized how much less shampoo and conditioner I used.
      I don’t know that I’d ever go buzz cut because I have a giant scar on my head where my brother hit me with his Tonka dump truck because I wouldn’t stop teasing him . . .

    7. Ms. Meow*

      First, I went from mid-back length hair to a pixie cut. I had so many stylists talk me out of it for YEARS, and I finally found one who was like “Rock on!”. I got so many double-takes the first week, and a lot of “WOAH!!” reactions.

      Then about 6 months later I dyed my naturally strawberry blonde hair a lovely deep auburn and that go a whole other round of double-takes.

    8. medium of ballpoint*

      That’s rad! I keep thinking about getting a buzz cut, but my hair’s curly and I worry the growing out period would be years of awkwardness so I live vicariously through others. I hope you have a ton of fun with it!

    9. Elizabeth West*

      When I showed up blonde instead of red, I received a lot of double takes. Most people got used to it pretty fast. It took a while before I did, but I’m not sorry. I’ve toned it down some and I’m still really happy with it.

      The thing about hair: it grows back. And I bet a buzz cut feels fantastic in this hot weather. You do you!! \0/

    10. voluptuousfire*

      I’ve had anything from a short buzz cut (1 or 1.5 on the clippers) to teal pixie hawk and no one blinked an eye. I got a lot of compliments on the teal pixie hawk. I probably would have kept it if it didn’t make my hair so dry.

      I work in tech, so unusual haircuts aren’t an issue.

    11. MinotJ*

      I’m in my 40’s and I’ve always changed my hair every few years – long enough to put in a French twist to buzz cut to bleached pixie to hipster flop on top. I work in the non- patient side of healthcare and when I started at my current employer about 9 years ago, I would get double-takes and stares from my coworkers. I’m pretty shy, so this was tough. But really, this is how I am with my hair and I’ve been messing with it for 30 years now. I don’t think I could stop if I wanted.

      Luckily, everybody got used to it, and now people get excited when I come in with something new. And when it gets long and boring they ask what I’m going to do next.

      I’m almost sad that my “hair nemesis” retired. She would get so upset with me and tell me I could be so pretty if I didn’t do my hair with a weedwhacker. I would make it extra big and ugly when I worked with her.

    12. Lobsterp0t*

      I loved having my hair buzzed!!!

      I might go back to it, actually. I’m on the fence.

      I wore a lot of earrings, also did my eyebrows, and also wore bold lipstick.

  46. Skeptic*

    I’m here because I’m worried about my friend. So basically, his job has him working 70-80 hour weeks every single week. His job is also requiring him to study and pass a licensing exam. However, since he works nonstop, he pretty much never has any time to study. He’s brought this problem up with his boss, but nothing’s changed. What should he even do? He could find another job, but that takes time he doesn’t have, plus the lack of certification makes him less competitive. He could quit, but that’s kind of drastic. Advice?

    1. Moray*

      Are the extra hours the off-the-cuff “btw we need you to work late today”? Because if so, he can classify his study time an actual appointment, and even block the time off on his calendar if it’s shared.
      “I can’t stay past 6 today or Thursday, I have an obligation those evenings.”

      Is there any kind of tutoring or study group for the exam, online or otherwise? If it exists, he can use it as an excuse, even if he doesn’t actually take it. “I have a session at [time] on [recurring weekday] for [licensing exam].”

      Also, poor guy. 80 hour weeks are really unhealthy, and a good boss would never allow that, much less require.

      1. AnonoDoc*

        Actually, 80 hours/week is pretty typical in medicine here in the US, which also requires licensing exams/board certifications.

        1. ..Kat..*

          But, if he does not have a medical license, he is not a resident working 80 hours per week. I wonder what job he is doing.

    2. It's me*

      is this public accounting by chance? If it is, this is actually pretty standard. After April 15, your friend should be back down to normal hours and have time to study after work, although I cannot understand how in public anyone would be required to study during busy season. If this is not public accounting, but a similar field, does your friend have a “deadline” they are working towards? Is the expectation that they are supposed to be studying during this busy time accurate? If they are being expected to put in 70-80 hours a week AND study for a licensing exam, I’d say your friend should try and look for another job. He will get burned out if there is not light at the end of the tunnel.

      2. Skeptic*

        It’s not, he’s a civil engineer. I could get it if it was a rush project or emergency, but this is just a constant thing. I’m worried about him.

        1. Natalie*

          In my experience at least, this kind of unreasonable expectation from a boss will not get better on its own. The best case scenario is that it doesn’t get worse. The only way things change is if he sets some boundaries around his working hours and prioritizes his needs to some extent. He clearly can’t count on his boss to take them into consideration.

          Now, obviously that’s easy to say and harder to do, and he probably will experience some internal anxiety and/or threats from his boss about being fired. But as hard as it is, he shouldn’t let this get to him. For starters, if he doesn’t set some limits now, he will be stuck here literally forever since 80 hours a week is truly ludicrous. In most states, being fired for being unable to work two full time job’s worth of time wouldn’t be the kind of cause that disqualifies someone from unemployment, which would cushion the financial blow. And any reasonable employer is going to understand being fired for being unable to consistently work these kinds of hours.

    3. Grace Less*

      He should talk to his supervisor again, and then his team leader, division leader, regional VP, whomever if that doesn’t work. With all, he needs to have that honest conversation. “I’d like to stay here, but the current workload is preventing me from studying to take the PE exam on a typical timeframe. I’m working extra hours primarily because of Project X. Can you share with me when you anticipate them returning to the xxx workload we discussed when I was hired?” If it’s short-term, maybe they’re willing to bump him to PE pay now and he’s willing to delay the exam 6 months. If it’s long-term and they don’t offer solutions, he’s probably not on their radar for success anyway.

      Engineering is an employee market right now; job-hunting probably won’t take long. My understanding is that government employers (DOTs, WWTP, City/County Engineers) might give him more of the work-study balance he’s looking for.

  47. Justin*

    Had an interview this morning. He loved me. But the salary is just far too low at this stage for my family.

    It’s just an issue with the field of adult ed/nonprofits that what I do now (still nonprofit but gov’t training with zero management responsibilities) is far more lucrative (and so intellectually bereft that I do all my schoolwork weeks early because I’m so bored, not to mention not being super into my colleagues, but that’s not their fault) than the field that I really want to become a leader within.

    Oh well, will keep searching for a unicorn job.

  48. Antilles*

    Totally random question:
    Is there a generally accepted term for someone who is a level up above you in the hierarchy, but *not* your direct manager or part of the chain of command?
    Effectively, I’m wondering if there’s something similar to the way people will say “grandboss” to mean “boss-of-my-boss”.

    1. Countess Boochie Flagrante*

      In keeping with grandboss, I’d be jokingly tempted to say uncleboss or auntboss but those are weird and also gendered and probably a terrible idea.

      Boss-in-law? Nah, that doesn’t work either.

      Good question!

    5. Ama*

      I often just say “senior colleague” to indicate they are above me but not really part of my team.

    6. The New Wanderer*

      Is it someone you report to but isn’t your direct manager? I have a “dotted-line” boss in addition to my direct manager. In my case the dotted line is to a director level, which is three* manager levels up from me but I report directly to him at times.

      * Extra weirdness, a team I work directly with that are peers to me report directly to someone at my grand-boss’s level because they don’t have the extra level of management.

      Otherwise I’d use senior colleague (for a level or more up but not management), or same-level manager for someone I don’t report to but reports to the same grandboss as my manager.

      1. PharmaCat*

        I find the grand boss terminology weird. I my company our boss is the +1?, grand boss is +2, etc. It doesnt explain your situation.

  49. peanutbutty*

    My work is implementing a whole programme of work around Lean/ Six Sigma and continuous improvement.
    I have found myself having a really negative reaction to this – while I am totally in favour of reducing duplication, it’s really hard to see how this applies in my particular role (which is about building relationships and stakeholder engagement) – I keep having to point out to people that what they perceive as “waste” or “inefficiency” (e.g. travelling off-site to meet with a charity) is a key part of my role and is actually crucial for longer-term collaborative opportunities. I feel like I’m being made to justify the existence of my role, constantly. I work in a team of one (which I love!) and I set my own outcomes and am accountable to people outside the organisation, rather than inside it.
    I can’t help feeling that the lean/ six sigma approach fails to take into account roles like mine where I am not one part of a process – I am a team of one, aiming to influence/ engage people over whom I have no authority.
    I’m also realising that I gravitated towards this type of work in part because I do not want to/ am not great at spending my time administering processes and obsessively “gathering data” or recording metrics.
    I also did a bit of research and found that a few stats saying ~75% organisations stop Lean within two years and so I can’t help feeling that I am not alone in feeling that the effort is too high for the impact achieved!
    Has anyone been through a lean/ six sigma/ continuous improvement approach at work where they felt it was not suited to themselves or their role, and do you have any suggestions or strategies?
    I don’t want to constantly be the nay-sayer in the room, but beyond being genuinely happy to help colleagues think about how they could improve their processes, I cannot see what this adds to my work – in fact I am finding it a huge drain and pulling me away from my core responsibility. I have raised these concerns with management but there is no escaping!

    1. AndersonDarling*

      Your PI people suck. They should be balancing waste (time/money) against benefits (face to face time). If your prime goal is to create engagement, then they need to be calculating the impact non-face time will have to engagement, which will be detrimental to the point of creating negative engagement from your stakeholders. This is a horrific business idea and a perversion of PI.
      Bad Performance Improvement folks will just focus on the dollar signs because it makes them look good when they present their findings to the board/leadership. Sorry you have to deal with that.

      1. peanutbutty*

        thanks for this! I am finding it hard to communicate the fact that my job necessarily involves lots of work that doesn’t show immediate benefits (and that in order to get any collaborations that work, I have to explore lots of others which won’t end up happening for a whole host of reasons outside our control). It’s all perceived as waste. I think this is linked to overeducated’s point below about timescales – I am looking at relationship building now in order to get a positive outcome in 3 years time; the lean people we work with are looking at (and asking for data on) much shorter timescales.
        It’s good to know that better versions of this exist, however! :-)

        1. AndersonDarling*

          You may consider showing them the potential impact of loosing out on the in person contact and what would happen if you lost the support/engagement of your stakeholders. Would you loose out on information? Funding? Connections in the market?
          It’s kinda like if you worked at a charity where a few big donors account for most of the funding. And in turn, the big donors get invited to exclusive charity events, get awards, and everyone bows to their requests. All that time, effort, and money could be considered waste. But if you stop, you loose most of your funding and the charity can no longer run.
          They need to focus on the overall health of the company rather than nit-picking if someone expenses a side of avocado on their business dinner.

    2. Overeducated*

      I haven’t been in a lean/six sigma type workplace, but I have been in a role like yours, and I wonder if the issue isn’t that your role isn’t part of a “process,” it’s that the process of relationship building and engagement has a much, muuuuuuch longer timeline than the process for individual projects, but it can be necessary for the individual projects and organization as a whole to have the desired impact. That was definitely the case where I worked, and where I work now. I have come to believe that trying to approach the external elements based on project or budget timelines rather than external timelines, without a concrete way to conceptualize relationship growth and maintenance beyond individual projects, can be a predictable source of failure.

      So I wonder if instead of saying “this doesn’t apply to me,” you could present what you do in terms of a much more extended process, with data being collected on a yearly basis rather than monthly (or whatever your example would be), and argue why long term conceptualization and engagement is more suitable for the work you do. I’m not very familiar with the lean/six sigma approaches, obviously, so I don’t know if this would work, but I think putting your work and value in terms others can understand can often be very helpful.

      1. peanutbutty*

        thank you – that is a great suggestion. I think part of the issue is that someone higher up has recently started pushing this and so we are also supposed to be implementing it immediately! make your suggestions for improving processes right now! where are your KPIs showing how things have improved in the past month! Rather than taking into account that the natural lifespan of outcomes might differ in different roles.

        And of course for many roles that is appropriate, so I feel like I don’t want to be the person constantly poo-pooing something that others find useful to their work.

        I will definitely try reframing this (to myself, as much as others!) as a case of my timescales being different, rather than this being totally unsuitable.

    3. Ali G*

      On one of my first few days at my Old Job (who was into Lean at first) my boss’s boss (VP) told me my job was “necessary waste.” I kind of embraced it though. I mean, you can’t sell your products if we don’t maintain our certifications and that was my job!
      I do think there are areas where Lean is useless, so you are probably not wrong there. Is there anything you can ID that you could use to show you are doing it, but not really? In my case, I rewrote a documentation manual (which I was going to do anyway) to show how I “implemented Lean.” I was also a department of one at the time.
      Otherwise, yeah, just try to wait it out. After the initial “OMG this will solve all our problems and we will be the best EVA” dies again, this may well become a non-issue.

      1. peanutbutty*

        Ha! Definitely hoping this may die down quietly (at least from its current intensity) if I wait it out! :-) I am currently writing my plan for the year so can definitely try to add in a few lean references there. Thanks for the suggestion!

    4. PX*

      Late to this, but you can also try looking objectively at your day-to-day, and seeing if there is any way you can make things slightly more efficient. For instance if you’re going to off-site location A for a client meeting, can you fit in another meeting with customer B in the same area? Or for instance if you have found industry Y to be a promising lead for a new relationship, are you focusing on 2-3 customers at the same time vs just 1? I think even something as simple as: moving to digital business cards for example could count :D

      If you take out the Lean obnoxiousness that can sometimes be prevalent, the simple thing they are trying to get to is: are you being as efficient as possible in how you work (within reason).

  50. Lucette Kensack*

    I’d like to hear folks’ reactions to this article highlighting a few nonprofits’ “person-first” benefits: http://www.startribune.com/bring-your-baby-to-work-minnesota-nonprofits-tap-unusual-benefits-to-attract-retain-employees/512002992/

    Some examples are: closing the office for two weeks and hiring temps to handle essential work; allowing babies and pets in the office; trust-based paid leave (unlimited leave, but without the “take as little as possible” undercurrent).

    I know there’s a very strong anti-kids-and-pets-at-work sentiment here, and I’m hoping we can have a conversation that goes beyond blanket statements in favor or opposed. It seems like the practices are working for these orgs, at least.

    1. WellRed*

      I’m on the fence. I don’t care to have babies around all day (see: it started crying while she was on a call so a coworker swooped in). They are noisy unless they are sleeping but if it works, I love that it makes life a bit easier for working parents. These benefits all skew toward family/parental stuff. Is there something somewhat equivalent for non family people?

      I have no idea what kind of workplace can function with only temps for two weeks.

    2. Jules the 3rd*

      Having *different* benefits from other industries helps them compete against those industries for employees in a tight labor market, since they can’t compete on price. Differentiation is a reasonable strategy.

      I’m not sure how much better ‘bring the baby to the office’ is than ‘work from home’, but that’s me…

    3. Rachel in NYC*

      I have to wonder if its really one of those where its less about the benefits and more about the healthy office. One of my co-workers absolutely had to come into the office when he was on…maybe paternity leave- no clue…it was for a quick meeting. Another co-worker watched his daughter so he could have his meeting. And most of us were briefly distracted from our work by the cute baby. There is no office policy about bringing in babies, or not. But in a healthy office, you want to help out your co-workers. It would be an issue if it was every day- but it isn’t. It was the one time.
      Or one of my co-workers forgetting something and having to stop by the office for 30 minutes with his dog. Do we normally have dogs in the office? No. But it wasn’t an issue, he had to stop by. Things happen.

    4. MeepMeep*

      Why not just allow the breastfeeding moms to work at home and flex their hours so they can get their work done? It’ll be less distracting to the coworkers.

      Or we can advocate for a 1-year parental leave like they have in Europe. A 3 month old baby needs its mommy or daddy. Very important emotional developmental things happen during the first year of a person’s life, and we can’t just pretend they don’t matter.

    5. Not So NewReader*

      To me it looks like companies are trying low cost or no cost ideas.
      For example, with trust based leave, I think people actually take less leave time. If that is the case the company actually comes out ahead but looks like The Good Guy.
      What appears to be a generous act on the part of the company actually only scratches the surface of what employees actually need, if it does anything at all.
      I saw the two paid weeks a year for care-giving. Anyone who has had a dying parent/relative knows that 2 paid weeks a year is nothing for someone who needs round the clock care.

      Just my opinion of course but this is more of the same empty stuff like those cafeteria benefit plans. It takes hours of reading and calculating but eventually the employee realizes that they have been given nothing that is useful or accessible to them.

      And a factor for me is how companies react to their own programs. In some companies TPBT act like their program is the Be-All and Cure-All for everything. And that is not true. One company allowed us to accrue sick time. A person could have ten weeks of sick time. Oh the company thought it did a great thing there. So I asked if one week of my sick time could be transferred to a cohort with a life threatening illness. This caused a massive meltdown with TPTB. How dare I ask and so on.
      Companies can pretend to be employee focused and they actually aren’t.

      So I guess my overall reaction to “person-first benefits” is, “That’s nice. Let’s wait and see how TPTB allow that to play out IRL.”

  51. Help!*

    My question is at what point can employees escalate their concerns to the Board of Directors? My boss is, well, a jerk. He belittles everyone in the office to the point of tears, is questionably breaking laws, wastes our time, raging sexist, and infuriates every single person in the office. There are 5 employees in the office and every single one of us is currently looking for a new job/planning to quit directly because of him.

    We have all addressed our concerns with him individually (i.e. saying that we don’t appreciate the language he is using and other ways to explain that we are frustrated but in a nice way) several times. We have tried to set up office meetings to discuss office culture and ways we can improve as an organization as a whole (not just him, the entire office) and he refused. The last time my coworker talked to him, who my boss thinks is his best friend and is our unofficial HR, he mentioned that some staff were considering to go to the Board, just to put my boss on notice that our concerns had gone to that level.

    He was nice for maybe two weeks after that point and now he is back to his normal jerky self. I literally hide in the women’s restroom a few times a day just to get away from him. We have tried to fix this internally several times at this point in time. At what point can we try talking to the Board?

    1. peanutbutty*

      I would say as soon as questions come up about legality of actions, that is a time to take it to board: Even if you were to phrase it as asking for clarification on whether something is legal. Surely ensuring due legal diligence is part of any board’s remit and I think this is something they would Want To Know.

      1. Help!*

        For further reference, we are a state affiliate of a national organization and he is not paying the correct amount of dues to our national organization and giving some members a “discounted rate” which is very much not allowed under our chartering agreement.

        1. peanutbutty*

          Eeek! I guess you could ask yourself:
          If the national organisation found out about this and questioned the board about it, and the board asked you if you had known/ suspected: would they [the board] have reason to be angry when people replied that they did know/ suspect, but chose not to inform the board?
          I’m betting the answer to that would be “yes”… in which case…

          Given the jerk-boss situation and if you’re worried about his reaction if your name gets mentioned, could you also look at an anonymous complaint? Is there any kind of whistle-blower channel for the organisation that you could use?

          1. Help!*

            Right now, we don’t feel comfortable bringing that up to anyone. My boss despises the person in our office that does the dues collections and he is incredible vindictive so we worry that he will drag her down with him or say that she made the error. She obviously knows about this, but doesn’t bring it up for obvious reason.

            As for the anonymous complaint, some board members are aware of his actions (not all of them). There really isn’t a system in place though, it is a somewhat informal organization.

    2. Not So NewReader*

      I’d say go as a group to a board meeting. If you are unsure how to get on the agenda, ask the secretary or the board president.

      Lay out what is wrong.
      Then talk about what you (collective group) have attempted to do on your own.
      Tell them their organization is in danger of getting into some real hot water. Briefly explain where the legal issues are.

  52. Amber Rose*

    Today is the day. Our Big Event to celebrate the Stampede. My boss is taking us all down to watch the big show which ends around midnight-ish, so basically what this means is like 16 hours with coworkers. It’s 9 am and I’m tired just thinking about the rest of this day. At least I remembered my hat and sunscreen this year. Last year I was crispy.

    I don’t even know why I’m trying to work right now.

    Hey, is it weird for me to use lovely or beautiful when describing other women I work with? I wouldn’t say it to their face obviously, but our counterparts from another part of the world are in town and both of them are like, super model tall and beautiful and I was a little overwhelmed for a second, which I was trying to explain to my husband without being creepy.

      1. Amber Rose*

        Yeah? But it’s pretty weird to call anyone beautiful to their face if you aren’t dating them. I think my best friend is a smoke show, but I’ve never said that to her either.

        I say/think lots of nice things about people I would never say to their face because it would be awkward.

        1. Amber Rose*

          Actually, dating them or on special occasions/sales situations. I’ve had sales people tell me I look beautiful in whatever clothes I’m trying on, for example, and obviously on my wedding day everyone and their mom said I was beautiful in my white dress.

    2. dealing with dragons*

      I’d rather be described by my skills rather than my looks. Would you tell your husband about male coworkers using the same type of language (handsome, etc)?

      1. Amber Rose*

        It’s a combo honestly. There’s a couple of good looking dudes working here. One of them was working as a stripper before. If their looks don’t strike me as noteworthy I wouldn’t mention it.

        Skills don’t mean anything to my husband, he’s not in this industry. I usually try focusing on personality, like the one dude I work with who has a razor sharp wit and is a complete sweetheart. But I don’t know these women that well.

        1. dealing with dragons*

          for me this is a weird issue as I would be attracted to either gender, so telling my husband that some super hot ladies showed up would be as weird as saying some of my coworkers are super hot dudes.

          It seems fine in a gossip-to-your-husband way, but not fine if that’s how you relate to them/view them in a work context. There’s a weird dichotomy between beauty and brains, so just remember they can still be smart! :)

          1. Amber Rose*

            Oh, I know they’re smart. They inherited an unbelievable disaster and are somehow keeping everything going despite how dire the whole situation is. I respect their work greatly. I was just kinda floored at the sight of them. Lol.

            My husband and I may be a little weird. We gossip about hot people all the time. I once caught us both turning to look at the same hot chick in a mini skirt.

    3. Marion Q*

      Not at all! My best friend and I do this all the time. Whenever we meet other women at work who we find beautiful, we’ll tell each other, like “I visited another department today and met this really lovely girl, it made my day.”

    4. bonkerballs*

      Using those words to describe them while talking to your husband or a non work friend is a non issue, in my opinion. Totally no big deal. Lovely, especially, since that’s a word that usually isn’t about looks, but more about overall personality.

  53. softcastle mccormick*

    Update: So, I posted the other week about having the all-day corporate interview for an internal position on a different team, and…it went absolutely amazingly well. I interviewed with 6 different people, and I clicked with all of them in different ways–it all felt very conversational and natural. They also told me that my talent project was the best out of the bunch, which felt great because I AGONIZED about it for days. They informed me about next steps (interviewing a couple of other candidates and putting together budgets before our summer raises).

    I’m shocked because yesterday morning I just received a call from a member on that team I’ve worked very closely with, saying that a second similar position opened and she wants me for it! It’s kind of a dream come true, because the specific subject matter in this brand new opening is what I’m very experienced with and would make me a perfect fit. Now they’re taking a couple of days to put together salary, benefits, etc. and planning the current coworker’s leave, and I’m so excited! But also anxious because the worst case scenario person in me is dreading this is all too good to be true and that it will somehow fall through. Now…to stop refreshing my e-mails and focus on something else so I don’t obsess.

    2. Andy*

      You work hard, you did good work, you deserve nice things. The anxiety is normal! Your talent is above-par!

  54. Public Facing Librarian*

    File under karmas a b***h
    So this week I gained some knowledge that would be damaging to the former board member who had been all over social media criticizing my work and rallying her minions against me.
    Damaging reputation wise, no actual harm to humans or animals or the earth.

    Take the high road right? Keeping my reactionary outrage to myself. No sharing, twittering, blind items, or whisper campaigning.

    Stay in my lane. Be centered that this is the right course of action.

    2. Frustrated In DC*

      I mean, if no harm will come to other people and you can do it so it can’t be traced back to you somehow? (I’m the worst)

      1. Daniela*

        Sometimes, scorched earth is the appropriate choice. I would think it over a million times before acting though.

    3. Lisa*

      Is it damaging to just her reputation, in an embarrassing scandal sorta way? Or is it something that could reflect badly on your organization if it were made public? And/or does it reflect on her character in a way that could be cause for concern related to the work she does – even if just showing poor judgement? I’d look at it bigger picture, rather than revenge, and see if it still feels petty.

      1. Public Facing Librarian*

        It would reflect poorly on her work life/reputation. Might be damaging enough if there was a promotion opportunity. Shows extremely poor judgement/poor practice. Will reflect not at all on my institution. No one was actually harmed by her actions.

        Might make stakeholders think twice about following her lead with her concerns with me and my work.

        Feels super petty on my part. Most of the pubic stuff has blown over and the pendulum of public support has swung in my direction. Overwhelming support at ALA conference from those who were aware of the situation.
        I wouldn’t want someone pointing out this egregious professional error publicly about me. (Unlikely that it will be public knowledge) Still a bit bitter about her part as one of the leaders of the whole unfair/seemingly personal twitter/facebook storm critique of my work. She had a lot of “cred” as a former friends board member.

        1. Lisa*

          It sounds like it’s something makes her look bad but isn’t actually bad? If that’s the case, then yes it might be petty and bitter. As long as you’re not allowing something to stay hidden that really ought to be known because of future risk.

    4. Not So NewReader*

      Residual outrage.

      I have often wondered when I have residual outrage if that means I should have done a better job of standing up for myself in the moment. Then I try to think of things I could do if ever faced with that situation again.

      There’s the outrage. But behind the outrage is that sense of losing one’s own power. Hey, this person just robbed me of my power! So a logical step would be to figure out how to effectively take my power back in the future if I ever see this again.

      You might be able to get some relief by figuring out practical steps you will actually use if this ever happens again. It might be beneficial to write the plan down. The plan can include names of specific people and/or specific titles of people in your arena who you would contact.’

      I try to put as much into my plan to match the amount of outrage I have inside me. So some plans are better developed than other plans. ha! Figuring out a plan does seem to help use up the excess energy that comes with outrage/upset.

      And, of course, once I had a plan in place, I was never faced with that particular situation again. However, the planning process made me sharper. I found because of exercising my brain about previous situations, I could think my way through tight situations faster.

      And it’s always good to know who has your back.

      1. Public Facing Librarian*

        Residual outrage. That kind of nails it. Still too close to the situation to think objectively. I actually do appreciate the chorus of yes, this is petty. I do think that there is no future risk and this person realizes the error in judgment and will not continue on that path.
        Therefore. Keeping it to myself. Hoping that my kindness and restraint will be paid forward somehow.

        1. valentine*

          I do think that there is no future risk and this person realizes the error in judgment and will not continue on that path.
          This is kind, possibly in the extreme. Are you being too kind in that it’s something that should be shared at work, but you are hesitating because of they’re constantly attacking you? Doesn’t their current behavior shows a pattern of poor judgment?

          Still too close to the situation
          Devil on your shoulder: So would it make sense to ask a trusted colleague for advice?

  55. yes_mr_president*

    I worked in a toxic environment and made a mistake some people do while trying to leave toxic environments. I accepted a job where red flags were visible from the moon. I lost this job last week after a few horribly stressful months.

    The job search is going great – to my surprise. I’ve already received two offers and I’m still in the process for 3 positions. I’m not 100% happy with the positions I’ve got, but they aren’t bad.

    But I’m paranoid! Not the whole time, but I have attacks, moments during which I think everybody hates me, people know each other and will learn from my previous bosses how awful I am, that I’m an awful employee and will never get a normal job and that everybody watches me and talks about me. (Please note, my performance was never an issue in the two last jobs…).

    How would you deal with that?

    1. Mrs. T. Potts.*

      I understand how you feel. Do you think that some sort of self-talk might help? As in, cognitive behavioral therapy type self-talk? “You are a good employee. You have done nothing wrong.” That sort of thing? Perhaps talking with a friend who knows you well would help.

      Good luck with your job search!

    2. Not So NewReader*

      I used a couple approaches if one did not help on a given day I moved to the other approach.

      1) Okay, let’s go right into it. Yep, people are talking about me and they all hate me. What will I do?

      I will treat each person with respect and kindness. I will offer them the same benefit of the doubt that I want them to offer me.

      2) People seem nice to my face but I am not sure what they are saying behind my back.

      Reality is all I need is for them to be nice to my face. I just need to get through the workday and go home. And they need the same from me. Back to the respect/kindness/benefit of the doubt stuff.

      3) I keep a promise to myself to get out of a toxic situation sooner. Making myself stay does nothing.

      4) It does not matter what others think, I am going to do my absolute best every day. Eventually some of them will figure it out.

      5)And in the end what *I* think of me matters more than anything. If I know I am not doing a good job or if I know I am breaking my promise to me to extract myself, that is where I am actually getting the most harm done to me. I have put myself in a bad spot by neglecting my own values/ethics/priorities.

    3. Public Health Nerd*

      Yeah, it’s difficult to recover emotionally from a toxic workplace. For me, choosing an employer who would deal with problems in a more normal way was key. So I would have the attack, use the self talk NotSoNewReader suggests, and then notice over time that employers was getting to know the real me and liked me anyhow. Also I asked for feedback – asking things like: “X happened, and I thought about doing QRS and I chose Q. Is there anything else you would recommend?” Helps to build a more realistic idea of how your new boss thinks about things over time.

    4. UKCoffeeLover*

      It takes time. I’m 2 yrs out of a toxic work place and still occasionally feeling it. But it does get less and less.

      If you can, see a therapist. I did at the time, and now I’m seeing her again to work through things that are still triggering me.
      Be kind to yourself, you are out of it, and you will get through this!
      There is a supportive group on FB: Dignity Together. Look them up.

      Good luck x

  56. Nacho*

    During my recent performance review, my boss told me one of the reasons I only met expectations is that I’m “too productive” in the sense that he gave me feedback to to do less things/spend more time on the things I do, but I’m still doing about 50% more than my coworkers (we’re in a call center taking calls and responding to emails, so we can objectively track everybody’s productivity pretty accurately). I get the impression he thinks I rush through my work, but the truth is that most of my coworkers spend half the day fucking around on our internal facebook or socializing.

    Is there any way to bring this up with him without sounding defensive, or should I just cut down the amount of work I do and spend more time on Facebook to keep him happy?

    1. Not an Exhibit at the Petting Zoo*

      I think the key is in the “spend more time on what you do” part. Ask him if there are any issues with the quality of your work, since clearly the quantity is above and beyond. Ask if you’re missing details that you might catch if you put things aside for a day and looked at them with fresh eyes, or if your emails come across as terse and could benefit from being fleshed out, or whatever.
      If he just thinks you’re making your coworkers look bad, then yeah, just take a little time for yourself or do some professional development stuff.

    2. Admin of Sys*

      Definitely ask what he’s seeing that causes him to think you should spend more time on the things you are doing. Call centers aren’t always about most calls / fastest closing so he might be thinking that you’re closing out issues without giving them due diligence to resolve them. It’s possible that the things you are doing aren’t where the management wants you to focus – some call centers would rather longer calls and happier customers than quick closes and more tickets being resolved.
      But it’s also possible he’s looking at the numbers alone and assuming you must be shorting your customer service duties because how else could you get things done that quickly, without any data to support that.

      1. Windchime*

        Exactly. Story time: My son used to work for the State and his job was taking information from clients and helping them access their benefits such as SNAP, housing assistance, etc. He worked hard and tried to get through as many calls as possible, since sometimes clients would wait for an hour or more on the phone. He was told he was doing too many cases, too fast. The quality of his work was great; just…..too fast. He tried to slow down by taking more frequent breaks, but then he was told that he needed to keep working (they could see that his mouse was idle). So he literally had to sit between each client and wiggle his mouse for 10 or 15 minutes while he wasted time on the internet, so that he didn’t work “too fast” but also wasn’t idle. All while desperate poor people were waiting on hold for long periods of time.
        He did that job for a couple of years before he got so frustrated that he quit and went into a totally different field.

  57. Internal Equity*

    How is internal equity implemented at your organization? What factors are used? Does seniority trump all other factors?

    I am running into an issue where internal equity via tenure was used as a reason not to pay me what I asked when hired, but now another person hired just after me has been promoted and paid more. I have received nothing but stellar performance reviews, and took the internal equity policy to mean that everyone is on a slow track to promotions and pay raises in which the less tenured can not ever “get ahead” of the more tenured, but this latest promotion indicates that is not the case. Thoughts? I realize I will need to have a conversation with my manager to clarify the issue, but trying to get a better grasp on how to frame my concerns.

    1. Jen2*

      I’m not privy to the details of how our company is handing internal equity, but my grandboss told me at my last review that he’s working to correct some imbalances. So people who were being underpaid would get larger raises for a couple of years than people who were already being paid more.

      When I hear of internal equity, I think of the rates people are being paid for doing similar work. I wouldn’t necessarily consider promotions to factor in. So it makes sense to me that someone would be paid more after a promotion. And I wouldn’t expect tenure to be the only factor in deciding who to promote, although it should still be a contributing factor in most cases.

      I’d just frame the conversation on what you should be doing to work towards a promotion.

      1. Internal Equity*

        Thanks! That makes sense. I think what I’m sensing is a disparity between how things are presented to me when I ask about additional pay, promotion, etc. and what I observe happening on other teams – so maybe this isn’t an internal equity issue but more of different managers using different standards for promotions. I will approach it more from that angle. Thanks!

  58. Is There Anything I Can Do?*

    So when I started with my organization six months ago, the expected hours I was told was 40 hours per week. Well, now we are rewriting our employee manual for the first time in 24 years and now we are expected to work at least 45 hours per week.

    Is there any recourse for this or can I ask for an increase in compensation since I had agreed to my salary on the basis of working 40 hours per week and this is a 12.5% increase in the hours I will work and as such I feel justified in asking for a 12.5% raise.

    Thoughts?

    1. CatCat*

      Whoa, yeah, hour-wise, that’s like 30+ more working days per year. I would not be trading away that quantity of my life for nothing extra. I would definitely bring it up. “Boss, I accepted the position here based on the understanding that the work was 40 hours per week. Now that that’s changing, are salaries going to be adjusted to account for the new level of work?”

      And if not, I’d be immediately job searching.

      1. Is There Anything I Can Do?*

        Okay good, I thought I was crazy for assuming there would be an adjustment in compensation. I also just really don’t want to work the extra hours.

        1. Lucette Kensack*

          I’d caution you that I think it’s VERY unlikely that they will offer everyone a 12.5% salary increase. I suspect your manager will be quite take aback if you make that suggestion. It’s not fair, but asking for such a large increase will come across as out-of-touch.

          I’d approach it as a question: “With the increase in required hours, are there going to be any salary adjustments or other changes?” You could add: “It’s a pretty big change from what I was told when I was hired, so I’m a little concerned,” or something like that.

          But mostly, if you don’t want to work these hours (and if they actually come to fruition; it’s possible nothing will change day-to-day), you should probably be looking for some thing new. I’m sorry!

        2. CatCat*

          Yeah, if no money is worth those hours, start looking anyway. I agree with Lucette to ask it open-ended and see where they come on the money.

          Is there anything else that would make this tolerable? Like telecommute days? More vacation time? Worth exploring at any rate.

          But ultimately, this may just not be for you. A significant schedule change is a perfectly good reason to be looking so soon.

  59. Mrs. Carmen Sandiego JD*

    Has anyone taken a CIPP/US or CIPP/G (Government) privacy certification? Or become a privacy law specialist? What was that like? Was it worth it career-wise? Asking for a friend

  60. Anon Anon*

    Over the past couple of years I’ve posted a lot of questions and complaints about an incompetent executive admin in my department. I am delighted to say that today is her last day! It is a day of rejoicing.

    (For her, too, apparently. She’s walking around singing about how excited she is that it’s her last day. Nice.)

    1. Eva and Me*

      She might want to be more careful of that! A secretary I worked with did something similar before she left. (Was excited to leave to go work for REAL *s — think real doctors/accountants/attorneys.)
      Unfortunately, negative circumstances required her to move back to the area and she inquired informally through someone still at the firm whether we had an opening for her. We didn’t, but who knows what we might have tried to pull together for her to help her out if she hadn’t burned bridges? You never know who might be in a position to help you later when you really need it.

  61. Not So Super-visor*

    Help me with this argument:
    We interviewed someone (female) for an entry level role in a fairly male dominated field. We were discussing dealing with difficult work situations and how she’s handled those. She gave an example of being discounted as a female and having people ask to speak to her manager (male) or a male coworker even though they gave the same information.
    Afterwards, my boss (male) said that he thought that she did poorly in the interview because of this example. I (female and manager) disagreed and told him that was because he’s never had to deal with that issue; I’ve head it happen both when I was a rep and as a manager.
    Your thoughts? Is this an unprofessional example of handling a difficult work situation?

    1. I'm A Little Teapot*

      I don’t think it’s a bad example, assuming that the way she handled the situation is fine.

    2. AvonLady Barksdale*

      I think that’s a difficult situation and it happened in a professional setting, so it’s a good example for her. Why does he think that’s unprofessional? What would he have preferred?

      1. Not So Super-visor*

        He mostly thought that she should have come up with any other kind of example. We weren’t specifically asking about this question; we asked for an example of how she had handled a difficult work customer or work situation. The way that she answered the question and handled the situation that she described was professional. He just made a comment (to me) that whining about sexism in an interview was unprofessional and made her seem weak. I half think that she was testing the water to see what our reaction to this kind of situation was.

        1. Public Facing Librarian*

          oh please. She wasn’t whining, she was answering the question. If her response was a professional one, his criticism actually demonstrates his ignorance of this very common workplace issue.

        2. WellRed*

          Did he actually say whining? Does he not think sexism is a thing? Has your boss exhibited other red flags?

          1. Not So Super-visor*

            Always. Unfortunately, the guys is teflon (30+ years at this company) Fortunately, he’s retiring here in the next month

        3. Close Bracket*

          He just made a comment (to me) that whining about sexism in an interview was unprofessional and made her seem weak

          What a wanker. That is a tough work situation, so it meets the requirements of the question. If she talked about handling an aggressive direct report, would he has said that whining about bullies in an interview makes her seem weak? No, he would not have. He thinks it’s whining bc he has never dealt with it.

          Personally, I would never, ever have used that as an example, but good on her. I admire her harbles.

        4. Kat in VA*

          His comment about her “whining about sexism” is exactly why it should be brought up more. He thinks sexism is overhyped or played up or outright made up. Therefore, someone using it as an example of a difficult work situation is “whining” because yeah, HE’S never been confronted with it. Ergo, that’s not an example of a “real” difficult situation.

          Another tired take on “I don’t have to deal with things like that so they’re not really a problem”.

          Also saying that she seemed weak because she brought it up is equally infuriating. Remember, ladies, we’re supposed to smile while we eat shit because that’s the hand you’re dealt by being born female!

    3. yes_mr_president*

      I’ve been in her situation. I’ve even been in the situation where I was talking to someone (an IT person on client’s side) but he was answering my questions addressing the (male) colleague who was sitting next to me :D Although the colleague didn’t talk to him at all.

      This problem exists of course, it’s not like the candidate made this up.

      What would be the right solution according to your boss? It’s a really difficult situation. If you address the problem directly, you risk being seen as a problem (you shouldn’t be risking that, but…) and playing the gender card. If you don’t, you accept that you are treated as a second-category professional just because of your gender.

    4. Nova*

      Well, how did she handle it?
      I’m not surprised she encountered it and it strikes me as a good example of dealing with interpersonal issues (your boss’ ‘it hasn’t happened to me so she must’ve done something wrong to warrant it’ implied reaction doesn’t make him look good), but the question was how she handled it.

      I wouldn’t have chosen that example because it’s unfortunately a bit of a minefield (you can’t singlehandedly make people take young women seriously. It’s also hard to prove that a guy with the same attitude would have been taken seriously, so an, especially male, manager might fear she’ll refuse to be critical of herself and instead blame others for being sexist). But if she’s otherwise a strong candidate, it seems weird to not hire her for that.

      1. Anon for this*

        My thoughts exactly. If all she actually said was that she has faced sexism at work without elaborating on how she dealt with it, then I would say that it wasn’t a great answer in that she didn’t fully answer the question. However, assuming that wasn’t the case (and you mention above that “the way that she answered the question and handled the situation that she described was professional,” though I am curious as to how she handled the situation), then no, it’s a valid answer as a difficult situation between the sexism and having people constantly asking to talk to someone other than yourself to verify information.

    5. irene adler*

      Sure, it stinks when women have to endure this. And I suspect your boss wants to support a woman who pushes back on such ignorant behavior. Good for him! But he’s got to think through the next step here. What would the response be, given candidate pushed back? IS it something that is conducive to worker interactions in the future? Maybe this is what candidate was trying to preserve when she acted as she did-in both instances.

    7. Policy Wonk*

      I would take a step back from the specific example. Does your boss favor a different candidate, and is he looking for a reason to dismiss this one? If so, and she otherwise knocked it out of the park in the interview, he could be using this as an excuse. I agree with other posters – I don’t think it is a bad example, if she had a good explanation of how she addressed it.

    8. Dasein9*

      I think your boss’ response proves the need for people to talk about this issue more.

  62. Education and experience on a cover letter*

    How can I handle a lot of education and a small amount of experience in my cover letter?

    I have a master’s degree in a specialized field, while people in my job don’t typically have it (usually they have high school or associate’s, sometimes bachelor’s). Positions that I apply for usually require both the master’s degree and experience in a higher level position. I’m struggling with how to address it. I haven’t been able to get much advanced-level experience to put on my resume, so what I have is lower level. Currently I have a paragraph that says something like “While I don’t have manager experience, I do have a strong combination of hands-on [job] experience, a Master’s in [field], and [specialized, advanced] certification.” Do I need to address it more and/or differently?

    1. yes_mr_president*

      I was in a similar situation a few years ago. I didn’t manage to convince recruiters/ hiring managers that my education compensates for some of the needed work experience. But it may be a cultural thing and it may be better in your country.

      Most big companies at least here have very precise guidelines about how to treat education and work experience. You won’t change much just because of how you put it. It may be better if you apply at smaller companies, where your skills may matter more than formalities.

    2. Alphabet Pony*

      I wouldn’t say that because it sounds like you think you’re describing something that’s equivalent to professional managerial experience.

    3. TPS Cover Report*

      The graduate catch-22. They want a degree and work experience. How do you get the work experience if nobody gives you a job?

  63. DietCokeHead*

    I had a phone interview this week and now I wait to hear if I move on to the in person interview. I felt like it went OK but I didn’t get completely into the interview flow. Please send a thought out to the universe that I have positive news. I’m pretty miserable in my current job and this new job sounds like a good fit for me.

  65. I'm A Little Teapot*

    Petty victories count, right? I’ve posted before about the new mgmt person, we’ll call her Amy, has been bugging me. She’s a chocolate teapot reviewer, I’m a vanilla teapot reviewer. There’s a lot of overlap in hard skills between chocolate and vanilla, but the background knowledge of how it works, how it’s supposed to work, what can go wrong if things aren’t right, etc is very different. And that background knowledge is critical in the conclusions you draw.

    I’ve been working on a project regarding vanilla teapots, and Amy has been the manager over it. We’ve clashed a few times because she doesn’t quite get it, doesn’t listen to me, etc, but for the most part, I’ve basically ignored her and just done the project. Well, project is done and we’re in the wrap up phase. There’s a problem. On the underlying chocolate side (cause it’s underpinning the vanilla), things are setup a certain way that isn’t necessarily great, but it’s not horribly wrong. However, because of how the chocolate is setup, the vanilla HAS to have certain stuff to compensate. And the vanilla does not. The chocolate is a nice to have, the vanilla stuff is a must have. The vanilla stuff that’s missing is needed regardless of how the chocolate stuff works. BIG problem.

    Writing the report – I write it as chocolate is setup this way, thus vanilla has to have this stuff and it’s missing. Fix it! Amy rewrote it as chocolate is setup this way and that’s bad, oh and by the way vanilla is missing this piece. We went back and forth a couple of times like this. Yesterday, had a meeting (standard) with John, who is in charge of the department. He reads the draft and asks why it’s written like the chocolate is such a huge problem when it’s really the vanilla missing stuff that’s the big problem. In the 15 minute conversation, John completely shut her down on pretty much everything.

    After the meeting, I go talk to Amy because part of what John asked was if we’d told the boss over the vanilla teapots about the missing pieces (we haven’t, though we’ve talked with some people who work for him). So I ask Amy how she wants to proceed re talking to that guy. She says to setup a meeting with him for mid to end of next week, she doesn’t think we need to call him sooner. Ok. Well, then Amy goes off to another meeting. Few minutes later John, her boss, comes out of his office and tells me that he just called the boss of the vanilla teapots to let him know that the pieces are missing.

    So, that’s 2 me, 0 Amy. (Before you feel sorry for Amy, I have repeatedly tried to help her out, she’s repeatedly disregarded and also disrespected my knowledge and experience. She’s earned this, and other people on the team are also annoyed with her.)

    1. Auntie Social*

      Just like women’s soccer, 2—zip!! I don’t feel sorry for her one bit—she doesn’t listen. Keep it up.

      1. I'm A Little Teapot*

        honestly, I’m starting to think she isn’t going to be around very long. Apparently she’s not happy in the role, and she’s been here about 6ish weeks? But yeah, disregarding what the people who’ve been there longer AND who have a lot more experience in this stuff are saying is not a good plan.

        1. valentine*

          Did you have to consult her when vanilla’s your thing? Maybe you have room to take initiative, but her attitude has you hesitating. If you had called the guy and reported that to John, would he have appreciated that?

          1. I'm a Little Teapot*

            Unfortunately, yes, I have to have her involved. And given politics stuff, not a good idea for me to call the big boss. I can and will work behind the scenes to make sure things are done ok in the end, but at least for now I’m stuck with her.

  66. SplendidSparkle*

    I’ve been a lawyer for 12 years and I am ready and eager to get out of law. I don’t know how to find a job that isn’t at a law firm, though. Every advice guide talks about resumes, cover letters, interviews, but I literally do not know how to find the jobs to even apply for. The jobs posted on job boards in my area are below my level (I’m not taking a 40-60% pay cut), and my network is almost entirely lawyers.

    So, how do you find the jobs to apply for? How do you take that first step?

    1. I'm A Little Teapot*

      Not a lawyer, but most of my experience with lawyers is in corporate legal departments. So maybe look for companies large enough to have internal legal depts?

      Re the pay – I’m sorry, but if the market rate for whatever you’re looking at is x, then you’ll get x. If your current pay is 2x, that’s a choice you’d have to make.

    2. blink14*

      Have you thought about looking into a job in a different field that requires a law background? Colleges and universities have lawyers on staff, and employees with legal experience doing contracts, compliance etc. I would think many companies have similar roles available.

    3. Kim, No Longer Esq.*

      If you’re interested in policy work, check out Idealist.org, or for campaign jobs go to the Wellstone Jobs listserv. There’s also partisan boards with political jobs: JobsThatAreLeft, or Brad Traverse or Democratic GAIN on the left (I’m not sure on the right, but TalentMarket is libertarian). Tom Manatos Jobs is also a great, cross-partisan job board for that. (I’m in DC, so most people I know that had JDs but don’t work in law work in policy).

      I’ll also be honest with you… you’re a career changer, which brings a significant probability of a pay cut anyway, given that you’re starting with closer to entry-level experience in the job you choose, more or less depending on how much law stuff is involved with it, and if you’re making lawyer money and moving to a non-law job, the odds of that compound. I’m sure you’re aware of that, and it’s a tight labor market so it’s a great time to explore making those changes, but you might get to a point where you need to decide whether it’s more important to not take a big pay cut, or more important to not have to go to a law firm every day.

      1. SplendidSparkle*

        “Lawyer money” is really a myth. We don’t on average make as much as people think we do.

        1. Pescadero*

          Last I knew the average was over 2x the US median HOUSEHOLD income.

          Half the household in the USA make less than $60K per year.

    4. Glomarization, Esq.*

      This is really going to depend on what kind of work you’re looking for. Teaching? Consulting? Management? Writing?

    5. Sprechen Sie Talk?*

      Do you have a general idea of what you want to do otherwise? Or just no idea about what else you could do?

      I’m currently stuck in the same position – attained a certain level (not law), not sure where to go next even though the skills are highly transferable, lost as to where to even start to apply. I had to go get some career counseling to try and figure it out and its starting to pay off.

      One other consideration – have you looked into regulatory affairs or anything like that? Similar skills to law but not law.

    6. sunshyne84*

      I just googled jobs for former lawyers and a lot of articles popped up. Some of the jobs don’t seem ideal, but they may spark some ideas for you. One article mentioned a Beyond Billables podcast. I don’t know what area of law you practiced, but lost of my coworkers practiced law and they are in govt now. Maybe you can try teaching for awhile?

    7. Mrs. Carmen Sandiego JD*

      Go look at top 20 management consulting firms–I started out at a management consulting company. Also, government contractors love having a (non)practicing attorney to bounce ideas off of (attention to detail, knowledge of various compliance regs).

      Source: Am attorney who went to law school, then worked as a tech writer, then passed the bar, did consulting, and am now doing compliance

    8. The Other Dawn*

      Perhaps try looking for compliance or risk officer positions in the industry that most closely match the type of law you practice now.

      1. Fortitude Jones*

        I was just about to say this. Compliance and risk management positions are right up your alley.

        Also, claims adjusting jobs with a liability focus would be great for you if you want to still do some legal work – well, you’ll do a lot of litigation management and contract analysis.

    9. ..Kat..*

      Just started listening to the podcast Best Case, Worst Case. One of the hosts worked as a lawyer and then became an FBI agent. But, I am guessing he was criminal law.

      I recommend seeing if your state bar association has any resources on this.

      Good luck.

  67. Countess Boochie Flagrante*

    For trans/NB/GNC AAMers, and/or managers of trans/NB/GNC folks – how far do you figure it’s appropriate to push gender presentation before it’s really necessary to sit down with your manager and talk about it?

    I’ve been pushing in a masc-presenting direction for a while now, and I’m getting toward the point where I’m giving serious thought to binding on a daily basis. I’ve already gone over to a masc haircut and wardrobe. My employer has strong LGBT protection policies, and I’ve got state law on my side as well, but our industry is a generally conservative and formal one and there’s only so much policy can do in the face of industry culture. On the one hand, I’m not planning to ask anyone to change their behavior, including pronouns or nickname for me, so part of me feels that I shouldn’t need to say anything. But I’m also wondering if that’s going to create more unease for my manager & colleagues than if I just tackle it head-on.

    As a side update, I finished my CRPC and passed the exam with flying colors last weekend! I’m so relieved, and glad to be done with the class. That was a hell of a lot to learn in two months!

    1. I'm A Little Teapot*

      I’m straight/cis/plain vanilla and rather oblivious. Honestly, regarding the binding – depending on your chest size, I may not notice at all. If I did notice something and was rude enough to say something, a quick “made some wardrobe adjustments, much more comfortable now” would suffice if you don’t want to call out the real reason. Because wearing a binder does count as a wardrobe adjustment, and I assume you would be more comfortable mentally.

      Congrats on the CRPC!

      1. Countess Boochie Flagrante*

        That’s true, a wardrobe adjustment is an accurate description. For better or for worse, the binder makes a pretty dramatic difference in my appearance, but I don’t think any of my coworkers are the type to go “OMG Boochie where are your boobs?”

        1. I'm A Little Teapot*

          Well, if they did, that’d be rude and inappropriate for pretty much any social situation. Depending on how socially challenged your coworkers are, you might get some comments like that. The first (and to date only) person I know who is trans I accidentally blurted out “but where are your breasts?” Then I turned bright red and apologized. Luckily, he knew me well enough by then to know that I wasn’t trying to be dumb.

          1. Countess Boochie Flagrante*

            Fortunately, I don’t anticipate anything that awkward. But while I don’t think anyone’s going to blurt out awkward comments about my body, I’m wary of creating grist for the rumor mill if I don’t say anything at any point.

            Ideally, I push just far enough that I stop getting all the “~Ladies first~” pseudo-chivalry treatment that’s far too endemic here and that becomes the end of it so far as my workplace is concerned. Different pronouns/a gender neutral nickname would be nice but I’m not going to push proactively for them if no one feels the need to ask.

    2. Close Bracket*

      I wouldn’t tell my boss if I were planning to switch over to push up bras, and if anyone commented on my chest, that would be unacceptable. I don’t see that binding is any different.

      1. Countess Boochie Flagrante*

        Well, pushup bras generally don’t come along with a possible change in pronouns, for one thing :) Which is really what I’m wondering about. At what point does this become an elephant in the room of people wondering if they should be calling me a different name or using different pronouns for me? Which is why I’m really looking for feedback from the people who have been in this position.

      2. SciDiver*

        Anyone asking questions about your undergarments in the workplace is so beyond out of line. Hopefully nobody you work with is so rude as to ask about it.

        1. Daniela*

          100%!!! Stop staring at parts of me that aren’t involved in my job functions, right?

    3. G. Lefoux*

      Cis queer manager of a few NB folks here: push gender presentation however far you want. The point at which I’d want someone to sit down with me isn’t a point on a scale of gender presentation, but rather a point on a scale of “I feel safe sharing this” and “I have requests of things my manager can do, or communicate to others, to make my work a more welcoming place” (ex. communicating pronoun requests, advocating for more all-gender bathrooms, etc.)

      Caveat that we have a very deliberately loose dress code where anyone can wear [insert traditionally gendered clothing item here] as long as it’s practical to do their job in and in one of a few approved colors.

      1. Countess Boochie Flagrante*

        Thank you! The thought of becoming an elephant in the room makes me uneasy, but if I don’t have to have this conversation (and I probably don’t have to) then I’m a lot happier only talking about work stuff!

        1. The Bad Yogi (was Never Again)*

          CBF, what pronouns would you like us here at AAM to use for you? (If that’s too personal, I’m sorry.”

          1. Countess Boochie Flagrante*

            Hey, thank you for asking! I’m not enormously picky on the pronoun front, but they/them is preferable.

    4. Former Lesbian, Now Transman*

      I started my transition about 13 years ago. At the time, I was in a conservative field. Suits were expected in the office. I never wore a skirt (even pre-transition), and eventually switched to wearing men’s suits without a tie. I’ve always wondered if the people in the office talked about me, but nothing was ever said. I did start wearing a binder, but I doubt it was noticeable since I didn’t have a large chest to start with.

      However, I never felt comfortable asking people to change pronouns. I used a male name in my social life, but professionally continued to use my birth name. Had I stayed there, I am sure I eventually would have had to say something. If you have any co-workers you feel comfortable with, talk to them and get their opinion. They may be able to give you a perspective that isn’t colored by your fears.

    5. She's One Crazy Diamond*

      I have a trans colleague and she recently got implants. They’re very noticeable but no one is talking about them because it’s understood that talking about colleagues’ bodies in that way is sexual harassment (she talked to me about the surgery because we are close). Do what you need to do to be comfortable, no one at work should be talking about your chest. If they are not used to trans/NB/GNC people, it is their job to still be professional to you and use Google if they have questions about it.

  68. The Other Dawn*

    How does one set goals when you’ve just started a job (four months ago, previous bank was sold and I didn’t get an offer), but the long-term plan is to be in another part of the industry within the next few years?

    After the last bank was sold and I didn’t get an offer, I tried getting a job in another part of the industry, but it didn’t work out. The job at my current bank came up and although I really didn’t want to stay in a bank, I needed a job, no other interviews or even job listings were materializing, it was a step up from my previous position, and the money was the same. Smaller bank, same great culture as the previous one, and they want change (I LOVE change!). I would say I’m content for the moment since I’m working to affect change and do all the things that come with that. I have some challenges with one particular direct report, but I’m getting through it. But eventually I really want to be on the other side, meaning with a vendor that serves the banking industry.

    My manager asked me the other day about my goals for the year. That was easy since I just started and I have a lot that I want get done. Then she asked where I want to be in 10 years and I basically just draw a total blank for a minute. She asked if I want her job eventually and flat-out told her “NO!!” We had a laugh about it. I explained that her particular job is just not what I want to do. I thought to myself that I actually don’t have any ambition to move up at all, but didn’t say that. I could have, but chose not to. Instead I told her how I want to be out of banking by that time and on the vendor side. She looked a little taken aback, but it doesn’t seem to have had any negative effects. She asked me if I want more education, do I want to do training, do X, etc.

    So, I’m really stuck on goals outside of the obvious, which is to bring the department’s program to the next level, affect change and create efficiencies. The things I’d love to learn or do really wouldn’t serve me here, either because someone already does it or it just isn’t needed, but likely would in my next job. But it doesn’t seem right to ask for training that I might not use here to, you know, do my job here.

    1. Bluesbog*

      I don’t think it’s ‘not right’ to ask for training that you won’t use in your current job. It might not be realistic, depending on your employer, but it isn’t ‘wrong’.

      Some benefits are there in part to help a company and some are there to favour employee retention by keeping people happy. Training in a different field doesn’t keep you forever, but as a minimum it keeps you until you’re ready to change. That helps your employer. It isn’t ‘right’ or ‘wrong.

      If you were in charge of training and picked something inappropriate it World be different. But if your company is happy to pay for it…they’re happy. Use your benefit!

  69. merp*

    So in my new job, I’m doing a lot more walking/standing that I did at my old job. Generally a good thing but I have lower back problems that standing and walking make worse, and my back is pretty sore by even the middle of the day. I have physical therapy exercises from prev treatment that would help, but of course I can’t stop work and lay on the floor in the middle of the reading room.. So with the disclaimer that I know that asking for medical advice of strangers on the internet is a slightly weird thing to do, does anyone have stretches or something that help them with back trouble and can be done at a desk? Promise not to sue if they don’t work for me ;)

    1. Amber Rose*

      I have one I do a lot, to loosen up my lower back and hips. Basically cross one leg over the other and slightly twist your torso in the direction of the top leg. So if your left leg is over your right, slightly turn your torso to the left. Then pull your left knee gently in the direction of your right shoulder.

      If you make sure to keep your butt flat on the chair and your back straight, you should feel a pull through your hip and thigh. And it doesn’t look like anything to anyone else except sitting with crossed legs with your hands on your knee.

    2. Ali G*

      What kind of shoes are you wearing? Are they supportive? If I am wearing heels and want to use my standing desk, I keep a pair of cushy, supportive flats beneath my desk and slip off my heel and put them on for standing. It helps!

    3. L.S. Cooper*

      Not doable at a desk, but depending on what your back problems are, as odd as it sounds, I would highly recommend weightlifting. Doing even relatively light-weight deadlifts a couple times a week has made an enormous difference in my back pain and problems– obviously it could easily make things way worse, depending on what’s going on, but in my case, my issue was that my back just isn’t strong enough to support my very front-heavy torso.
      As for desks, I tend to be a big fan of twisting in the chair and using my arms to deepen the stretch. So, if I turn to the right, I’ll grab the back of the chair with my left hand and pull a little bit, and do the same on the other side.

      1. merp*

        This never would have occurred to me, I’ll do some research on what/how to lift! Thanks!

        1. Kat in VA*

          Mr. Kat in VA is a veteran of two back surgeries, and says he cannot stress enough how core strength is important for low back pain. Thinks planks and the like.

          Also, if you Google “seated stretches for low back pain”, the internet comes back with a plethora of options! This particular article “12 Stretches to Improve Back Pain at Your Desk – BTOD.com” was pretty good according to him.

    4. buttrue???*

      My physical therapist said if I couldn’t/wasn’t in a position to get down on the floor to in effect do the lesser exercise standing up. In that case it meant hands at hips and bend backward and hold for 5 secs and repeat up to 12 times. See if this helps and if you can modify your exercises similarly.

      1. Windchime*

        This one really helps me. I went through a period of terrible back pain a couple of years ago, and at first I could barely bend backwards at all. Now I do this several times a day and it really does help.

    5. G. Lefoux*

      I think this is called “crescent moon?” Sit up straight, stretch arms upward until fingertips are touching. Hold. Tilt upper body to right. Hold. Tilt upper body to left. Hold.

      This was a lifesaver when I messed up my back several years ago.

    6. That Girl From Quinn's House*

      I have back problems and was getting back pain. I got sent to physical therapy where they had me build my core strength and work on improving my posture (Google “neutral spine”) which helped a lot.

    7. Seven hobbits are highly effective, people*

      Is it possible to go see a PT again? They’d be able to give you much more targeted advice than we would.

      I also recommend good shoes, though. The right shoes have made a major difference in my life, and having the right shoes can change the way you stand and help out with back and hip issues as well as foot issues. (I also need orthotics, so my situation is somewhat different.)

      1. Windchime*

        Yes, shoes are so important. I really feel like a huge part of my debilitating back pain finally improving was switching back to Birkenstocks. Are they pretty? Nope. But I don’t care, because they are comfortable and my back no longer hurts.

      2. merp*

        Would seriously love to see a PT again but I’m not sure I can swing it at the moment, unless I can find someone who would see me on a weekend. :/

    8. Lilysparrow*

      Depending on where it hurts, I find crossing my ankle over my knee in “figure 4” position can help. Sit tall, try to get your bum flat on the seat, and if you need more stretch you can push gently down on your knee.

  70. Mid-Job Crisis*

    I haven’t enjoyed work since work meant mucking stalls in exchange for riding lessons. I’ve really been struggling lately with what-if’s of the past, why I went one way, should I have gone another? And what can I do now?

    My job isn’t terrible, I’ve worked in far worse situations. When it really comes down to it, the only issue I can put my finger on is I hate the commute. Yet I dread coming here every day. I spend my 15 min snooze in the morning going through all the reasons why I need to show up and keep this job.

    All I really want is a job I enjoy more than I dread. Can’t seem to find it.

    1. Adlib*

      Until you find something better, any way you can make your commute less terrible? Is it all sitting in traffic or just lengthy in general? Any podcasts or music you can listen to while driving that you don’t listen to elsewhere that can give you *something* to look forward to?

    2. Countess Boochie Flagrante*

      One thing you might do is try to build a (generally realistic) picture of what a more enjoyable job would look like. Obviously we’d all like “pays a million dollars and doesn’t ask you to work hard” but thinking realistically, what is appealing? Would you do better with a job that has a steady queue of work, or that allows you variable amounts of downtime between on-demand activities? Do flexible hours matter to you, or do you do better with a more structured workday? Even if you aren’t in a position to make a job change in the near future, this might help you start to build a longer-term plan for what to look for in another role.

    4. Not Alison*

      Hey, I’m currently exchanging mucking stalls for riding lessons and I love it! I love the horses and my favorite thing is currying the foals!

  71. Agent J*

    TL;DR: I’m looking for advice on my first freelance client.

    I work at a digital marketing agency in a major metropolitan area. A friend recommended a Twitter influencer (20k+ followers) to me who needs help with their content planning and strategy. I think it will be a good project to work on since my FT job is a bit boring and has a fair amount of down time waiting on deliverables from other people. (There would be no conflict of interest with my current agency or FT work.)

    I’m not interested in taking on a lot of freelance clients or making a side hustle out of it; I’m just looking for an outlet for my creative skills that I don’t always get to use at work. I’ve reached out to some friends who freelance a lot more than I do and got some great advice. I sent over a contract and negotiated a reasonable rate for my time and expertise. I’m treating this as seriously as it were a work project.

    But is there anything I should be mindful of since this is my first freelance client? Any advice you wish you had when you first started freelancing, especially when you’re not looking to make it into a whole side hustle?

    1. Alphabet Pony*

      ““since my FT job is a bit boring and has a fair amount of down time waiting on deliverables from other people”

      This makes it sound like you’re planning to work on the freelance project while at your job. You really, really can’t do that.

      1. Agent J*

        Apologies for the unclear wording. That’s not how I meant it. Just that I’m bored at work, so it’d be nice to have something interesting to work on outside of work.

        I know people have Feelings about doing other work at the FT job. While I don’t plan to do that, I don’t think that’s a rule I will enforce on others as it’s none of my business.

        1. Alphabet Pony*

          Oh, gotcha. But FWIW it’s not about ‘feelings’ – it’s about potentially getting fired.

    2. FT plus FL*

      My only advice is this– be sure there is nothing in your FT job contract or HR handbook about doing outside work on company time or using company resources (your PC). My organization has really cracked down on this and a few folks are in hot water over it.

      Good luck with it!

      1. FT plus FL*

        … and the page just reloaded with your reply. Seems like you’re all set there!

    3. Natalie*

      Particularly with the new tax withholding tables, I would definitely recommend recalculating your withholding even if you’re assuming that one small side client won’t make a big difference. My husband and I brought in less than 5% of our income as side work last year, but with the TCJA withholding changes we would have owed a huge chunk of money if it weren’t for one credit we qualified for.

      Don’t undersell youself on rate or hours billed, don’t feel weird billing and following up, and don’t let them get into arrears out of fear of “losing” the client. A client that doesn’t pay you is worse than worthless.

  72. Construction Safety*

    I was emailing back & forth with our accounting manager, generally about how it was easier to do some things before corporate improved them. He popped in with a project list I’d requested & says “I forwarded your request to HR corporate about the change in banking info.”

    Me: Crickets. “What”

    Him: Confused. “The change in the bank & routing info for your paycheck?”

    Me: “Not me”

    Him: Confused.

    We go look at his email. Apparently, somebody spoofed my email addy & sent him (using correct name & title) an email about changing my (correct name & title) deposit info.

    We dodged a bullet by chance.

    1. Steggy Saurus*

      Ah, so your accounting manager is the reason I had to take an internet safety course at work! ;) But seriously, I’m glad the situation was caught before your info was compromised.

      1. Construction Safety*

        We just took our corporate internet/email safety course. It concentrated on not opening emails from semi-familiar sources.

    3. Adlib*

      Wooooow. One time someone at my last company got phished and their entire paycheck went somewhere else.

    4. Brownie*

      Oooo yes, we just had internal notices sent out about that here. Apparently there’s at least a couple versions of that scam/theft, the one you encountered and then one where they go after reoccurring pension payments. The latter is usually someone either pretending to be a slightly daffy senior or their child who’s just trying to help their parent out and done over the phone. I’m a little bit in awe of whoever came up with going after direct deposit payments like this because it’s a brilliant piece of social engineering theft while also being simultaneously annoyed as all get out because now my company has to implement all kinds of precautions like minimum 2 weeks between the request and the change and manual in-person (where possible) verification of the request.

    5. Goose Lavel*

      Just think if the change went through and you missed a check or two and then had to prove to HR it wasn’t you.

      My wife went into Wells Fargo wher she had an acvount, deposited her check and WF deposited her money into someone else’s account and then bounced a months worth of checks she wrote. WF corrected the deposit, but despite her receipt, WF would not reverse the bounce check fees or cover the bounced check fees charged by the people she paid.
      She closed her WF account the next month. Petelco ever since.

      2. The Bad Yogi (was Never Again)*

        Wells once debited my CC payment, then closed the account for “excess usage.” That took some work to solve, but not much to change banks.

    6. sunshyne84*

      Wow! I’m glad we do that stuff online. I wonder if someone can trace that for you and see where it might’ve come from.

    7. Ama*

      We had one a while back that spoofed our CEO’s email, with one of those “hey I need you to go buy a bunch of gift cards and then email me back when you have them” attempts. No one fell for it, but we all got the usual IT reminder.

      A few days later, my coworker forwards me an email from a prospective donor (non profit) that seems a little …off. The donor claims they want to make a gift that they made a few years ago but 1) the thing she wants to do is not something we would accept and 2)we have a record of her name in our database but not any gift. Then my coworker and I realize there are three attachments to the email that have file names that seem completely unrelated to her email (somehow none of us had opened them yet). Spooked, we forwarded it to the IT department to get it checked.

      Turns out it was completely fine — she was just a little scattered and eccentric. But we did get kudos from IT for thinking to check.

    8. Occasional Baker*

      Our HR person got an email like that, purportedly from a VP, and just….. did it. Completely in violation of policies, which require a signed forms ( we’re small, so we can do that). So, so bad.

      And then HR nearly did it a second time, not having learned a f@€king thing the first time. (We’re small, so …. sometimes it feels like the Island of Misfit Toys.

  73. blackcat*

    Yesterday, my fed up husband sent what he called a “bomb” email to a senior VP (of a big company, so like great-great-grandboss level) outlining how a big (~$70 million) contract is being totally bungled.
    He has spent 2 hours on the phone with senior VP so far. He’s forwarded his emails he sent to his boss being like “There’s no way to accomplish X.”
    Heads are gonna roll. Not his, he doesn’t think. The reality is someone should have looped in upper management months ago and he has broken a sort of code of silence. He had been complaining to the project head for a long time, who kept insisting everything was fine. Which it wasn’t.
    It’s time for him to ramp up job-hunting, right? People are gonna be pissed that he caused heads to roll, right?

    1. A Simple Narwhal*

      There’s no way of knowing exactly how things will turn out, but I think getting a life raft ready just in case is a smart idea.

      1. valentine*

        Yes. Search, but stay cool and ride out the wave.

        Assuming he really wants to stay where there’s a code of silence and retaliation.

    2. dealing with dragons*

      it probably depends on the context? for instance maybe he doesn’t have the right context, and the things he were complaining about were known and accounted for, etc. so I can see it backfiring in that sense – there are plenty of letters on this site about a subordinate going over someone’s head when they don’t have all the info and making a mess of things.

      at any rate, working for the people whose head he went over is not going to be pleasant.

      1. blackcat*

        Basically, it boils down to the company promised X, Y, and Z. Y and Z are not my husband’s job, but he’s the main scientist type working on X.
        X is not possible with current technology. They have not been able to invent the needed technology, because the team’s instruction has been to adapt old things. But the old things explicitly can’t do X. People who invented those old things have told my husband, nope, can’t happen. Husband took their written responses to the project manager. Project manager said to find a way to make it work.
        This isn’t a matter of tweaking–more a matter of the fundamental science isn’t there. Think along the lines of someone wants to literally grow money on trees. Can we genetically engineer trees to grow in weird ways? Yes, we can! Can we engineer them to grow paper? Uh, no, not remotely, because the science isn’t there. CRISPR all you want and it ain’t gonna happen, at least not in the next 6 months!

    3. Nova*

      If the company culture is otherwise solid and he can weather the storm, he might come out stronger and have gained respect for this. In any case, if there’s backlash, he should document everything.
      BUT, life isn’t always fair, so if your family can’t handle him being out of a job for whatever likely period he’d need to be looking or if he’s anxious about it (or if he accepts to do it to soothe you), job hunting can’t hurt.

      Assuming he doesn’t get fired, people being angry at him and making his life difficult (but not unsafe) should leave him time to job hunt when that happens. Unless they’re the kind of people that can poison his contacts against him and make it hard for him to find a job, in which case he needs to be extra careful with references.

    4. The New Wanderer*

      It might depend on whether he had any contact with the intermediate chain of command, especially with a big difference between his immediate boss and the senior VP. I work in a similar hierarchy and can’t imagine going straight to the top as the next step if my direct boss wasn’t listening, unless there was a real risk that middle levels would try to quash it rather than help. I could see those middle levels being pretty upset if they were not informed and suddenly have this high visibility mess to clean up (presumably the direct manager didn’t clue them to any problems).

      It also depends on whether the company has an accountability culture. Ours is big on saying employees need to feel comfortable taking show-stopping issues to managers, and then escalating if necessary and on reporting any perceived retaliation. It’s not perfect, but it could be a cushion while the fallout is still settling and he gets a sense of whether his role is protected.

  74. Tau*

    So today, out of the blue, the CEO contacted me with a 20% raise.

    I’d deliberately decided a month or so back that I wouldn’t be pursuing raise talks because more money wouldn’t fix the things wrong with this job… although I admit I hadn’t realised this much money was in the offing. (I… knew I was somewhat underpaid? But, really?)

    I think I need someone to tell me that it’s still fine to be job-searching and potentially resign the month after getting this sort of extra money unasked. And possibly sympathise with my feelings of ?!?!?!

    1. Rusty Shackelford*

      The fact that they can throw 20% at you now means they’ve been (probably knowingly) underpaying you quite a bit. It is very, very fine to continue job searching.

      2. Fortitude Jones*

        Yup. Take the money and run.

        The best part about this is now you have a much higher salary range to negotiate from during your job hunt.

    2. A Simple Narwhal*

      It’s totally fine to still be job searching and potentially resign shortly after receiving a big raise. I 100% understand your mixed feelings, but you have to remember that this is on them. You started job hunting for reasons other than money, and those problems still exist. You didn’t go to them and say “if you give me more money I’ll never leave”, and they didn’t make you sign a contract in exchange for the raise. Enjoy the extra money and let it help you find a better job with an even better paycheck.

      Good luck!

    3. Tableau Wizard*

      You are always well within your right to look for options that are better for your life. A raise doesn’t change that and require loyalty for some extended period of time. They don’t own you even if you didn’t ask for the raise.

    4. irene adler*

      In a sense, it is easier to throw money -especially if they see that the additional cash convinces you to stay.

      If they truly cared about you, they would endeavor to remedy the “things wrong with this job”. But that might take some real work on their part. Work they are unwilling to do. So if more cash works… hey, then why bother doing the work? Problem solved.

      You are under no obligation to stick around given they upped your pay.

      1. Tau*

        To be fair to them, they are trying to remedy the things wrong with the job. I even think they have a reasonable chance of succeeding. However, I think there’s also a pretty decent chance they’ll fail, and that even if it does work out in the long run it’ll take more time than I’d like to get there.

        I guess I feel bad about it because the raise was basically communicated as “we’re really sorry your job has sucked this much recently, we’re doing our best to fix it, thanks for sticking with us this long!” and I’m like… sorry, if this had come six months ago I’d be willing to sit around and wait to see where this goes, but now it’s just too late.

        1. pi*

          You are channeling exactly what I’m feeling about my job right now… although I asked for a raise last November, brought it to the department head in January, and now they’re in a tizzy trying to actually make a raise happen because I have made noises about leaving.

          If they’d given me a raise last fall I’d be happy & set on staying. The delay and the additional dysfunction I’ve uncovered in the meantime makes it unlikely that I’ll stick around.

  75. HELP*

    Hi commentariat! I have a problem.

    My coworker, who has been here 30 years and is very established here, has picked up a recent habit of clipping his nails at his desk. I work in the cube over and I can hear the noise. He can be a bit touchy, and has other gross habits like talking while eating. I tried to ignore it and even tried blasting Pink Floyd to drown it out but the plink plink plink noise was still so plainly audible and it wigged me out so bad I had to get up from my desk and go for a walk. What on earth do I say here? He has 29 years of tenure on me.

    1. Tableau Wizard*

      Any chance you are sitting such that you can HEAR it but not SEE it? I’d probably fake ignorance and say something like “What’s that clicking noise I keep hearing?” to the general cube farm. If he responds that he’s trimming his nails, i’d respond in shock “At work?!” or similar

    2. Lily Rowan*

      I’m afraid there’s nothing you can say. You just aren’t in the position to do it, unfortunately.

      Headphones??

      1. HELP*

        I tried with headphones and music as loud as possible and the telltale plink of the clippers was still clearly audible!

    5. Which One's Pink*

      You have my sympathies.. Also, I feel like Pink Floyd is too chill and mellow to drown out the plink plink noise haha

    6. The Man, Becky Lynch*

      Ooooooooh I wonder if he’s carefully clipping them into his desk drawer…to leave them there to be found by the next person when he retires. =X

      Sorry, I can’t forget about the person who did that. Ever.

      But yeah, sadly this is one of those things that isn’t fixable. Can you use it as an excuse to get up and take a coffee break when he does it? I can’t imagine he’s doing it for hours on end, just casually every few days decides to trim up. I would find an excuse to leave my desk, maybe your coffee ‘kicks in’ at that moment and it’s a good time to use the restroom and distance yourself from the behavior.

      Honestly making it into an issue as suggested above isn’t the answer either. Don’t make it a public thing. Honestly I’d think worse about you than him, it’s not ideal to clip your nails at your desk but it’s also not shame worthy and you look out of touch by making a fuss.

  76. Remote Questions*

    Happy Friday! I recently saw a listing that I would be a great candidate for/am interested in, but it’s in a city I don’t want to move to.

    Has anyone had luck with applying for “regular” listings, then indicating in your cover letter that you would be looking to work remote? Or is that a faux pas? Any advice would be greatly appreciated!

    I work mostly remote now, and would be open to working from home for my next position as well.

    1. Nova*

      If you are reasonably confident that the job you do can just as well be done remotely, it can’t hurt to try. It is worth looking into whether remote workers are already a thing at the company, because otherwise, it’s unlikely they’ll put a whole new system in place for you (unless you have high in demand skills).

      But don’t worry about “faux pas”. Applying politely to a job you’re not a good fit for won’t make you memorable in a bad way.

    2. Elizabeth West*

      I’ve done it, but unfortunately it wasn’t a remote position (even though it totally could have been done remotely, wtf company). So I had to withdraw. I sometimes wish I could have done it anyway, as it would have been a good entry-level job in the direction I want to go, but I didn’t really want to move to a town that all reviews online said was “extremely racist.”

      And since it was a smaller town, I might not have made enough money to get out of there. You might want to consider that if you’re thinking about taking it for a while and then leaving.

  77. Anonymous For This*

    Has anyone here experienced age discrimination on the job? What did you do about it? I am 66, and got a new supervisor recently. After over 30 years at this company, and 30 years of getting good reviews, suddenly I’m told I am not doing things correctly, and work is being taken from me in subtle ways. How do I handle this? Because I’m not going to retire until I’m good and ready.

    1. Differently young*

      This is so frustrating and hurtful. My sympathies.

      You have two different problems :
      “I’m told I am not doing things correctly” : is anything fixable (in the spirit of ‘choosing what hills to die on’) ? Changing habits (within reason) to make your manager happy might be good strategy. It is also always positive to look open to feedback (even when the feedback is questionable).

      “work is being taken from me in subtle ways”. Can you address it head on? Calmly and factually. For example “I now have more time since I used to do this and now X is doing it. Could I be tasked with Y ?” or “I’d be interested in joining this project”.

      Taking on voluntary work (say, being the person who organises a work potluck, or passes around a card for a leaving coworker) could also help : if you show you’re invested and people find you likeable, they’ll see your work in a better light. It’s just human.

    2. irene adler*

      If nothing else, make sure you have copies of all the good reviews in your possession.
      If this ends up being taking into court, you’ll want those good reviews to document that you are a good employee.

      If at all possible, have them document in writing what you are now doing incorrectly. And try to get in writing any other documentation re: work taken away from you. And, keep copies of all this. Try not to have things in a “he said, she said” format. They’ll say you misunderstood or use some other lie to establish plausible deniability regarding possible discrimination.

      I don’t know if it’s time for a talk with an attorney. But you might contact an employment law attorney and ask if they provide free consultations. Then present your situation and ask for advice.

    3. Beancounter Eric*

      Part of it may be new boss wanting things “their way” or setting up to bring in their own people, but yeah, I’m betting age discrimination at play, also.

      As always, document their actions toward you, if you have a friend in HR, you might have a chat with them, and recognize sometimes there’s nothing you can do….speaking as someone who has been on the receiving end, if they decide they want you out, you are going to be out.

      Finally, good luck!

    4. Goose Lavel*

      Classic setup for undercover age discrimination. This happened to a friend at age 62. I hope you are ready to retire soon as I suspect a “layoff” in your future.

      1. JP Moon*

        Ageism goes both ways. Do you think that it’s possible that you are not willing to change how you do things?
        I am a 62-year old office manager, and the five staff members I supervise are under 30. These young people have great ideas and suggestions on how to do their jobs more efficiently. They ask why we do things certain ways, and offer suggestions for change. Sometimes we can’t change procedures, but I have realized that sometimes we do things certain ways because that is how it’s always been done, and no one has ever tried a new way, or kept up with the new technology or updates to software. I continually learn new things from them! It makes us more efficient, and they also feel confident that they can come to me with questions, ideas and solutions.

        1. Mellow*

          Having the authority to implement new ways of doing things isn’t the same as an employee conducting processes in ways sanctioned by his or her company and then suddenly being told those methods are an indication of underperforming.

          Document everything, OP, and locate relevant legal resources so you have them at the ready should you need them.

          1. Darren*

            Well I could see a new boss coming in with experience at his old company where X took a day to do, and finding out that here X takes a week and going “Yeah that’s not good enough I know if can be done faster than that.”

            This happens fairly often, not all managers are equally good at knowing just how long something is supposed to take or in ensuring people are developing. Now that isn’t to say it’s not age discrimination in this case but it could just be different (but reasonable) expectations.

    5. Totally Sympathetic*

      We’ve recently had something like this where I work (and it’s possibly identifying so I’m not using my regular name). This means I’m looking at something like this from the other side. We had an employee who’d been here a very long time, but the job had changed a lot, especially in the last 5 to 10 years. Much of the change was not what you’d call related to the central task which was keeping track of items in a specialized way, but we’d started using a lot of software support for the tasks (not new complicated software, think of something like Excel) and the employee dragged their feet on getting trained, refused to use any software that they could, and generally tried to ignore the changes. What made this particularly bad was a manager that hated conflict so much that she regularly gave this person good reviews. Finally a new manager was hired with the specific mandate to make this employee conform to the new practices, or retire. The employee retired.

      Please don’t think I’m saying this is you! I’m going to be 66 myself in a couple of months so I have experience with age discrimination which can be especially hard since it’s so often subtle. I just wanted to point out that you might not want to put as much emphasis on the good reviews as you might think. Best of luck, I think you’ve got a lot of good years ahead.

  78. Aggretsuko*

    Several years ago I applied for a job opening in a department I work with a lot and have a ton of related experience in and knew (slightly in person) the parties I interviewed with. They work on a program that I use in my job, basically. It is a rare field to even have experience in and they seemed to be fine with me in person, but I did not get a second interview (the culture here is to have at least two) and obviously was not good enough for them to get the job. Now a very similar job in the same department is opening up again. I am unfortunately the same person and same known quantity with the same qualifications as before and nothing better to offer than I had the first time, but the staffing has changed (only one of the people I interviewed with before is still there, she is now running the group).

    I have very few opportunities to qualify for anything at this organization because my skill set is so unusual, but (a) I’ve already been rejected by them and wasn’t good enough before (I would feel differently if I’d gotten a second interview and been rejected after that, but I did not) and (b) I still have to deal with them directly on occasion if I don’t get the job. I am pretty tired of being rejected for places and then I still have to deal with them and the shame that comes up from that.

    Is there any point in applying for a job a second time if you’ve already been rejected and weren’t exactly close enough to be encouraged by the job people to try again?

    1. Overeducated*

      I think if almost everyone on the hiring side has changed, then yes, there’s a point in applying again. With new staff and leadership, strengths and weaknesses in a department can change and their needs for new staff can change too.

    2. LibbyG*

      Would a real low-key application make sense? Like a letter that says you enjoyed your convo with them about an earlier vacancy, and if it seems like a good fit, you would welcome the chance to talk further. If you’d like to work there, it’s worth applying, and you may be able to frame it for yourself and them in as easy-going, collegial, lower-stakes way.

    3. it happens*

      What you have is a few more years’ experience. And did they ever give you any feedback on your application? In other words, did they tell you “you aren’t good enough” or did you tell yourself that? What do you know about the person who got the position? How does their background/experience/cultural fit differ from yours? Can you have coffee/lunch with this person to ask about their background, the process, what’s going on in the department?
      I see no reason you shouldn’t apply.

  79. N-SoCal*

    So…..when the boss asks how things are going on the team, do you tell the truth?

    There are a couple of team members who are either bitter (work/life/alsolife), say negative things about other coworkers, or make a point that they are first/most experienced/best buds with the boss. (The latter I’m not certain is true.)

    Boss person is reasonable, one of the better ones I’ve worked for in years. However, finding the correct or meaningful words to convey – behavior of others really sucks, makes work less engaging, and I would rather work independently.

    I’m okay pushing back to work independently. But when the question comes to “Why”, how much should I say?

    1. Sales but not sales*

      If you trust that he is reasonable like you said, I would state the truth. A good boss would want to know that one of his employees is miserable because of something he could correct.

      1. Not Alison*

        Or perhaps a good boss would want to know that one of her employees is miserable because of something she could correct.

  80. Annabel Lee*

    Temping- anyone have any tips? I’m getting laid off Monday, and I thought a period of temping might be good, but I have a number of questions.

    1. I have no office experience and only half a bachelor’s degree. Will that be a problem?
    2. How long does one usually temp before getting a ‘real’ job?
    3. I’ve heard some advice for dealing with temp agencies that verges on ‘gumption’. Like, advice to call every day. Does that work, or is it bad advice?
    4. Anybody temp in St. Louis Mo recently, and if so would you recommend your agency?

    Thanks in advance!

    1. Moray*

      My experience:
      1. You are going to want to downplay your lack of experience. Do you have office skills? Word, Excel, internet use, decent typing speed? Those are worth emphasizing and brushing up on (a lot of temp work is data entry). A temp agency might even have you take tests on your computer skills.

      2. That varies a lot. Some gigs are temp-to-hire, but many are not. Some that are not temp-to-hire will get you in the and consider you for openings if you impress them enough. Sometimes you’ll go straight from one gig to another, sometimes there will be gaps. I would be job searching, and also making sure that you have some backup income to fill in the gaps, like online transcription work or Taskrabbit.

      3. I’ve never heard this. If you have the qualifications they’re looking for and you’re willing to take whatever comes along (i.e., not only being interested in temp-to-hire or a specific kind of work), a temp agency will snap you up. If not, ‘gumption’ won’t get you anywhere. Do throw out a wide net, though, and talk to multiple agencies.

    2. Sales but not sales*

      1. It might, it might not be. I think if the job is temp to perm, you would be overlooked for someone who has office experience but for my company’s strictly temp jobs, it’s not as much of a problem.
      2. If you don’t want to stay temping, I’d say move on from temping pretty quickly. My temp agency offered health insurance and had long time tempers but I preferred a permanent job so I found a temp to perm job pretty quickly instead of staying with the agency. It was better for my peace of mind but it may differ for you.
      3. I did not call every day. The way I got a job was by being pretty open with what I was willing to do. Like, not restricting myself to specifically HR but giving a range of related fields like marketing, HR, PR, etc. You may or may not be able/willing to do that but it fit my degree. I also interviewed with a few temp agencies so I could access a wider pool.
      4. No experience here but good luck!

    3. sunshyne84*

      I think it depends on the agency. Some will tell you how often to call them, but I ended up finding something on my own before they were ever able to. I would ask them to find more temp-to-perm positions. You can search entry level office jobs on Indeed. You don’t need much experience as a receptionist or file/mail clerk. Just play up your customer service skills and have a can do attitude.

    4. Tired DC Resident*

      Hi, 2 year long temp, here!

      1. It depends. I work with an agency that’s heavily focused on office work. They might have trouble and may not accept a candidate of your profile, but I know of others that staff political events that might have no issues taking you and find you work non-office work.
      2. There’s no definitive answer. If you’re a fellow untouchable like me and don’t find a perfectly suited temp-to-perm role right away, you can be stuck for a while. If you have a sterling resume and excellent network, you might leave your first posting before its first week if you get an offer. I second Moray’s suggestion to have secondary income because your jobs might not be consecutive.
      3. Don’t do that, either before you interview with an agency, or after they’ve accepted you and you have a contact. Keep in reasonable contact, sure, i.e. email them if you haven’t heard from your contact in a few months, give them a call to let them know how your assignment is going or, if something at the job like your end date changes (though the good contacts keep in touch anyways), but don’t cold call and don’t be a bother. That’s a good way to find yourself in the “don’t contract with” pile.

    5. cmcinnyc*

      Slightly dif advice on the calling every day–here in NYC you should *ask* the agency how often to call *and at what time of day.” For example, at some agencies, you can call early every day (say 8 or 8:30 am) to say, “Hi, I’m available today if anything comes in.” Last minute stuff like covering an unexpected sick day for a regular client does happen, and taking a day here and a day there can be a way to get yourself on the Reliable Temp list. But you *ask* at your interview–how often, and most importantly, *what time.*

      1. Seven hobbits are highly effective, people*

        This. I used to temp, and I think the agency I worked with the most wanted weekly phone calls. (It’s been more than a decade now, so things may have changed and I may be forgetting details.)

        The key is that you have asked them (at your interview/onboarding), confirmed that they wanted those calls, and then you are showing them that you are good at following directions by doing exactly what they asked you to do rather than some other process that “seems more efficient” to you or something.

    6. Mellow*

      If you think you would have the fortitude, have you considered being a substitute teacher as backup income?

      The pay averages only about fifty dollars a day, but the work is very steady, and is a sub’s market. You’d basically work when you want as you look for permanent work.

  81. Budgie Buddy*

    At my new job, I’ve been interviewing people for part time work and reviewing resumes/samples/cover letters. After reading all of Allison’s advice, I’m surprised how many people make the mistakes she talks about. My company isn’t looking for experts, but the job involves writing and we have people who just send in their general all purpose resume where you have to dig to find the writing experience, if it’s there at all.

    And even if they don’t have much experience, they could include a paragraph in their cover letter about how they’ve been in an unrelated field for 12 years but they’ve always loved writing and want to do some as a side gig. But sometimes there’s nothing at all in the application that indicates why this person might be interested in the job.

    Seeing both sides of hiring, I understand so much more how Allison’s advice is relevant.

  82. cmcinnyc*

    I have a dilemma that is making my workdays uncomfortable. I support two teams–I’ll call them The Pros and The Bros. The Pros have meetings with agendas, make clear requests, treat me with professional respect, and are generally very pleasant to work for and with. The Bros are a clique. They IM each other during meetings, so there’s clearly a meeting sidebar going on that only some of the participants are a part of, they leave me out of the loop most of the time, then need insta-help on stuff I should have known about and planned for weeks ago. I really hate working for, and with, The Bros. As you can imagine, my workdays are a weird ricochet between good management/workplace norms, and non-management/middle school crap. I have tried complaining to the head of The Pros, and he talked to the head of The Bros, and it got worse. So then I tried doing the bare minimum for The Bros and staying out of their way. That didn’t go well because Grand Boss was impacted when they let a bunch of stuff fall through the cracks because I wasn’t basically following them with a dust bin. Now I’m trying forcing myself into their meetings and hounding them for information until I get it. Results are better but I am miserable because I am now getting all the eyerolls, IM’ing behind my back, and deep sighs for 50% of my day. I need alternate strategies. And no, going to HR is not an option. They’re boorish but they’re hitting their goals and being jerks is not actually against company policy.

    1. cmcinnyc*

      PS I did talk to the head of The Bros myself *before* complaining to The Pros, and he repeated everything to his team who then swarmed my desk to say “nuh uh!” and argue. It was ridiculous.

    2. animaniactoo*

      I would be very tempted to call them out on it. And I think that maybe you can….

      “Guys, we need to come up with a better way to work together. For whatever reason, we’re not meshing. You get annoyed when I follow you around hounding you for information and I get annoyed when you wait until the last minute to include me because then I have to rush or do a half-assed job. This is counterproductive on both our sides. I tried doing the not-hounding-you-thing and that came back to bite us – ALL OF US – in the ass so hard that I think there’s still teeth lost in there. Also, I gotta say. It really sucks to feel like you see me as a nagging wife kind of person which is how I feel when I come to try and get information and I get the really deep sigh.[demonstrate]

      This is what I need from you: To remember that I exist and it’s important to get me information towards the start of projects so that I can do my job which is necessary for your work. What do you think that we can collectively do to make this happen? What do you need from me?”

      Q: Are you guys using any kind of project management software? If not, it sounds like setting some up could be a way to coordinate and get them to pay attention to deadlines of when you should be looped into a project/being fed information, and if nothing else highlight how late you are getting the information on a repeated basis so that somebody above you has a clear picture of where the problem lies.

      On another front: Okay, they dropped a lot of things through the cracks and grandboss was affected. Are they not being held responsible for that? Why not? I would actually run that hugely up the chain if at all possible. “There’s a limit to how much of my day I can spend chasing them around for information that they are not getting to me.” Because… you say they’re meeting their goals. But if they’re dropping stuff through the cracks to the point that it affects grandboss unless you’re chasing them around, are they really?

      I would still try to tackle it with them directly in large part because I think they might respond to that kind of directness. But if that doesn’t work – I would push back strongly on the idea that it is your job to repeatedly hound them for information while they roll their eyes at you and are the ones who are being uncooperative.

      1. cmcinnyc*

        Your script above is more or less what I’ve already said and just that bluntly. They are getting some consequences (and I suspect one of them is on PIP) but that’s not my paygrade/not my business so no one is going to tell me.

        1. animaniactoo*

          Okay then. How about “Alright guys. I’ve gone back to hounding you. But I’m not up for being hit with the eye-rolling and deep sighing for it like I’m some nagging wife. I’ve already told you how I feel about it. So I’ll follow up with you, but I’m not going to do it to this extent anymore. Get me the information and I’ll work with you. It’s up to you how this goes.” and see where it goes from there?

          Is there somebody above them that you can talk to about this and the fact that you intend to do this just to get yourself some coverage in case it goes pear-shaped on the grandboss again? In fact, possible to talk to grandboss directly and ask them for support/advice about how to handle this?

          Also – project management software, yes? no? The main advantage of it is that it essentially acts like a flowchart with some general dates to work against – we blow deadlines all the time on ours so we are not treating the deadlines as firm. But what we do treat as firm is all the steps of the process as necessary to be done. And our tasks are interdependent so person after me doesn’t get their tasks until I have completed mine and checked them off and it doesn’t come back to me for the next stage until they have done theirs and checked them off, and so on.

          1. cmcinnyc*

            Project management software is coming, but not required, so I’ll see if they’re transparent with that or not.

    3. Colette*

      1. When they roll their eyes or sigh deeply, call them on it. “Is something wrong? You just sighed.”
      2. What do you need from them? Are you clear about it? I.e. Can you lay out what you need at the start or the project? Can you give them turn-around times? (“I need 2 weeks to compile a spout report” – and then when they come to you and need it tomorrow, remind them of your turn-around time and then deliver it when you committed to (i.e. 2 weeks later)?

      1. cmcinnyc*

        Yeah you’re right, I’m going to have to be a bit confrontational in staff meetings (“Is everyone on IM? This conversation is dragging in a weird way.” or even “I’m not sure why you all need/want to be on your laptops throughout the meeting. Let’s have an agenda next time and bang through it in 30 minutes instead of multitasking for an hour.”)

        Unfortunately, being support staff means being reactive at least part of the time and stuff does legit come up last minute. But I need to document when I’m asked for something and then, after it’s done, I can maybe backtrack and sleuth my way into finding out when THEY found out it would be needed and whether or not they sat on it.

  83. Benvinda*

    I just want to thank everyone who contributes here, it’s been so helpful to me over the years. I remember coming here with the red flags in an interview series and people encouraging me NOT to take the job, four years ago.

    well… when fear makes the decision, it’s a mistake… I did take it… and I cannot tell you how much I regret that right now, as I start the job search to leave this place… and just reached out to our EAP to get some support because my manager and the office environment are too much for me to handle… speaking up to my manager has made her incredibly angry which I probably should have expected but was still shocked at how ugly she became… guess I struck a nerve.

    But without getting into my current situation too much, I feel like people here are speaking my language… professional, common sense, respectful about how to behave and treat others in the office. Sometimes I wonder if there are actual great places out there, like some describe, or perhaps I haven’t been great at picking the best places and managers… either way… Thank you all. Your input on my posts and others’ posts has been really helpful.

    Please wish me luck as I go back out on the search… makes me super anxious but I need freedom from where I am now and will try to really think about what I want and what would be a good fit for me this time around, instead of just changing seats on the Titanic. Life is too short to be treated poorly and in a negative environment most of my waking hours :)

    1. Sprechen Sie Talk?*

      Best of luck. I am in the same boat, having taken a job that rationally made sense but I knew, KNEW, in my gut wasn’t right, at all.

      Spoiler alert – its been awful.

      The people aren’t that bad, I have enormous flexibility and the commute is fine, but good lord the skill level is not high and the work I have to do means my career is reversing rapidly. They can’t plan, allocate staff, effectively manage, or coach, not to mention a lack of upward paths, backstabbing and plain old gaslighting, and its just miserable. I wander around feeling like I’m speaking a foreign language. And its been three years!

      So hang in there, and make sure you aren’t jumping to something just as bad (or worse), and find that right awesome place at last.

      1. Benvinda*

        Thanks for the well wishes. Sorry to hear you’re in a similar situation. Sadly, I can relate to a lot of the details you are sharing. I feel like I’m withering on the vine given the lack of skills where I am and am often tasked with doing other people’s work because they don’t have the skills I do. Talking to my manager about it brought us to a place where she got frustrated and basically told me I work for her, I represent her and she expects me to help my coworkers.

        So best of luck to you! I guess there are better things around the corner for us! And I know, for me, the next time I get that feeling that I should stay away, I’ll do just that.

  84. Blue Hair, Don't Care*

    I posted a few times, first about if I should say anything about my blue hair prior to an interview, then again to update that I got an offer. I am in need of advice again. It was a verbal offer on 6/21. It is a state job, so I know the official offers can take time, but I wasn’t given a time frame. There was a flurry of back and forth regarding negotiations of salary on 6/24. My request was well within the range posted for the position, and 6 k lower than the top, but director wasn’t sure if they could give me the amount I asked for as the state insists on basing new salaries on old regardless of how different the positions are. (For what it is worth, it would be a 12k raise from my current salary if they give what I asked for). HR said they would get back to me (they set the salaries and unfortunately my potential future director has no say).

    In any case, things are complicated by the fact that I am up for a reclassification in my current position that will pay more. However, I have to go through a whole re-interview process for my current position. Super annoying, but whatever. Not sure what that number would be and I was unable to find out without jeopardizing my position here. I was up front about this as I thought they may be able to use it as leverage for a higher salary. I sent a brief email on 6/27 asking if they had any updates with no response. On 7/2, I called the director at potential new job to let her know the reclassification process was proceeding and I would be “interviewing” 7/10. She still had no further info at that time and told me to go ahead and stay in the reclassification process so I wouldn’t lose any opportunities. She reassured me they had not offered the position and that I was still their top choice. Since then, I have not heard anything further. So, all of that background out now, should I reach out one more time to let them know my “interview” occurred and asking once again for any updates? or should I just assume they will call me when they know? When I spoke with her on 7/2, I did reassure her that I was willing to negotiate from my original number, but held back my bottom number. I know state government can be slow, but was surprised it could take 3 weeks to send an official offer and still have no word on a salary. Is that a common occurrence? Any insights would be appreciated.

    1. Bunny Girl*

      Honestly this sounds pretty normal. I have a couple close friends in federal government and it took them almost a year between their interview and their start date. I work for what is technically a state agency and it took me about two months to start even at the very low level I was at.

      1. Blue Hair, Don't Care*

        I know federal is notoriously slow. I didn’t realize that state would be as slow, especially when they made the verbal offer. I just wish they knew the salary, although I suspect they had planned to low ball me and when I point blank said no to a $3k raise, they may have been thrown for a loop. Even after that though, they still didn’t offer it to anyone else, so I am hoping they will meet me at least halfway.

    2. animaniactoo*

      I would not reach back to them until you have something firm to tell them about the reclassification having occurred and being able to give them a new “previous” salary to base your offer on. Until then, the ball is in their court.

      I am so happy that salary history was just outlawed in my state, because basing your salary on anything but the worth of the work you’re doing really is just banana crackers.

      1. Blue Hair, Don't Care*

        Thanks for this perspective. I was sort of thinking along these lines. I told them I really did want to work for them if we could come together on salary.

        I agree basing salaries on current salary is so ridiculous. The position I am in the running for is an assistant director position versus an assistant researcher type position. What is more mindblowing to me is my request was still well within their range! Range was like $48-76k, I make $58k, and asked for $70k given my experience and the responsibilities. The director when she made the verbal offer said she couldn’t be sure on salary as that is HR’s purview, but she said it would be at east a 6% raise. That would only be a 3k raise for me. I point blank told her that would not work for me (in a polite way).

    3. Hope*

      It’s worth keeping in mind that it’s summer, and a LOT of people probably took the Friday after the 4th off (and possibly this current week) for vacation. So it might just be that they haven’t been able to corral everyone they need to talk to/get approval from in order to get back to you. For now, I would hold off on recontacting and just wait. State government can be just as slow as federal sometimes.

      1. Blue Hair, Don't Care*

        That is a good point. You are probably right. I will just hold back. I do recall them saying at least one person was out of town, but I wasn’t sure if she actually played a role in actually extending the offer. Thanks for this. It is good to know that the hold up is likely state bureaucracy.

    4. The Rat-Catcher*

      In my experience, any type of HR clearance of existing staff takes MUCH longer than new hiring processes. I don’t know why but I’ve seen a month or more in my state.

  85. Pam Beesly*

    I posted a month ago about “grass is greener” syndrome. I had been about to buy a house and was in line for a promotion. Both the house purchase and the promotion fell through and I’m thinking about starting fresh somewhere else; I’ve lived in one place for most of my life and want to try something new. Has anyone packed up and moved to start a new chapter? I’d love to hear your stories!

    1. Bunny Girl*

      Oh gosh yes. I’ve moved all over the country. Some places I really liked, some places I really didn’t. But it gave me a good base level on to find out what I did and didn’t like. I was born on the West Coast (US) but moved to the Midwest with my family when I was a teenager. After I turned 18, I moved to the North East, the South, Southwest, and back to the West Coast; a lot of times just because I wanted something new. I really enjoyed my time and the friends I made – And knowing I always have places to vacation since I know all the “local” secrets. Ironically though, I ended up back in the Midwest a little over an hour away from where I grew up. I really hated it as a teenager, and although I still hate the town I grew up in (I have to travel there for work sometimes and I scream in frustration every time I have to) I absolutely love the town I’ve settled into. If the adventure is calling, answer it.

      1. Pam Beesly*

        Did you change jobs every time or were some of the moves for work? How did you decide when you wanted to settle down?

        1. Bunny Girl*

          I changed jobs every time. I took some time between graduating high school and going to college because I wasn’t sure what I wanted to do so I explored careers and took jobs that just paid the bills and didn’t expect long term stays – although I did have some really interesting ones! I moved back to the Midwest to be with my long term boyfriend. I thought eventually that we’d move back to the West Coast but it’s just so easy here. There’s plenty of jobs, the cost of living is really low, and my dream has to own a lot of land and fill it with critters and that’s achievable here. Plus I have friends (including my best friend) who lives relatively close and it was nice to not have to start that part over.

          1. Pam Beesly*

            Thank you for the added details! I’m glad you found a place that’s a good fit.

    2. Overeducated*

      I also had a house purchase fall through this spring, and decided a couple weeks ago not to buy this year, in part to make it easier to move if opportunities arise. I have moved around a lot, and want to settle down, but…not where I am. Enjoy your freedom and good luck finding opportunities!

    3. LawBee*

      At least three times in my life. As long as you go into it with the sense that, if it’s great then it’s great, and if it crashes and burns, it is still an EXPERIENCE, then it can be amazing.

      Moved to BigCity when I was in my early 20s and knew no one. Lived there for a decade, made great friends! Moved to BigCity 2 in my thirties, and it was a little harder (in part because BigCity2 is a tough place to live, and in part because money was an issue) but I don’t regret it at all.

      Go for it. <3

    4. new kid*

      I moved from the midwest to the DC suburbs a few months ago after realizing I needed a fresh start – no regrets! Cost of living is way higher but I factored that into my job search so I’m still making more out here both nominally and adjusted for CoL. Only thing I would say is that a cross country move is more expensive than I hoped it would be even choosing mid-range bargain options (ie. I didn’t fully self move, but also didn’t do a full scale shipping company). Good luck!!

      1. new kid*

        Oh also, a cross country job search can be brutal so hang in there!! Mine took ~6 mo and left me pretty beat up at points but I also ended up in a great fit eventually! *sending good job hunting juju your way*

          1. San Juan Worm*

            About a decade ago I moved from a major metro area in the Midwest to a small city in a Western state. I’d spent a total of two days in the small city during a cross-county road trip 20 years ago, and then a mere two days there for the interview. I rented an apartment sight-unseen because the property owner seemed trustworthy and she was prominent in the community. It was a great decision! I had the opportunity to reinvent myself (I’d experienced a major personal loss a couple years prior to the move), make new friends and pursue a lower-stress lifestyle. I’ve since moved on from that small city, but I’m so grateful for the time I spent there and how it changed my life for the better.

  86. Steggy Saurus*

    Is it generally acceptable or unacceptable to contact someone who’s on a hiring committee on behalf of someone working for you who’s looking for a permanent job?

    I have someone who’s working for me who I can’t offer permanent employment and I happen to know the manager of an organization this employee is applying to. I would of course be a reference if my employee got to that stage of the interview process, but I’m wondering if it’s okay to contact them ahead of time and “put in a good word,” so to speak.

    1. Amber Rose*

      I wouldn’t? I’d be hesitant to do anything that might hurt the employee’s chances, and you don’t want this person to feel pressured.

    2. cmcinnyc*

      If I was the hiring manager, and you were part of my network, I’d be happy to hear from you about someone who had applied for a position. If you are someone I don’t really know–like we exchanged cards at a conference or we have only a nodding acquaintance–you reaching out is more of a neutral. The first thing I’d want to hear is that the candidate has already applied via the process laid out (online portal or whatever) so I can then call HR and look them up. If you’re trying to get around our process it’s only going to be a headache for me and negative for the candidate.

      1. sunshyne84*

        I agree, I think the employee would appreciate that, if in fact you are on more than barely acquaintances level with the manager.

        1. Steggy Saurus*

          I am fairly well acquainted with the other manager (we talk/go to group dinners together at conferences, we are in the same sub-speciality of our field), and I’d definitely wait until after my employee’s applied if I contact them.

          1. sunshyne84*

            I don’t see the problem then. You can vouch for the employees work ethic and save them time making a decision possibly.

  87. La Luna La Luna*

    I recently relocated from country A to country B and the difference in hiring speed is stiriking.
    In A, hiring goes very fast (at least the interviewing process). If they put up an ad, they usually screen candidates on a rolling basis and you hear back quite fast after interviews if they are moving you forward (my friend was called the day of the assessment center tests to schedule the next steps).
    Here in B, I was just called in for an interview a month after I applied and the interview will take place in two weeks. I have been interviewing for another position since my application was sent in mid-May. First interview in the beginning of June, second in the end of June, the next steps (if any) are to be communicated this week (which is almost over, so maybe early next week?).
    I know that hiring takes time and often takes longer than foreseen. This isn’t a complaint at all, I just find this difference in hiring practices a bit hard to adjust to.
    Of course there are plenty of reasons behind that I know of (country B slows down for the summer, the job market is less dynamic, country A suffers from a lack of qualified workers, be it blue or white collar and they need to act fast if someone is a good fit etc.).
    Have you experienced something similar? How did you adjust?

  88. Red Sky*

    Anyone have experience with Expensify vs Smart Receipts apps for receipt scanning? Mostly will be used for tracking expenses related to an investment property, but might also use for reimbursement at day job, and general budgeting. Pros and cons? Other receipt managing app recs also appreciated.

    1. Red Sky*

      Oh, not sure if it matters, but since I’m somewhat of a Luddite, I’d be using an iphone for scanning but do most of my work on a chromebook with google drive.

    3. receipt reader*

      I do a bit of bookkeeping, so I deal with both of these from a reporting perspective. I find Expensify’s reports way better than Smart Receipts’. Smart Receipts also doesn’t have a web interface—it is app-only.

  89. Sales not sales*

    In a phone interview yesterday, I was asked, how would your boss describe you? I answered that she’d say I was detail oriented, great worker, blah blah blah. My cover letter has a quote from my recent performance review and I mentioned that as well. The interviewer sounded a bit taken aback?
    I mentioned this to a friend later and she said the interviewer probably wanted weaknesses too. Maybe I was taking the question too literal, but my boss has literally never said anything bad about my work. To toot my own horn, I am an excellent employee. I do have weaknesses but I wasn’t asked that and most prep articles I read about interviews said they would just ask for weaknesses outright
    Thoughts? Was I wrong to just list positives in response to this question? Do interviewers not ask for your weaknesses like normal anymore?

    1. Murphy*

      I don’t think you did anything wrong, or that you were obligated to list weaknesses.

      I saw a list of interview questions that had this one on it, and it said that this can prompt a more honest answer than just asking for weaknesses, because you can actually picture the interviewer talking to a specific person (someone they might actually speak to) and what they might say.

    2. The New Wanderer*

      I’d be in your boat too, although I wouldn’t have assumed they were looking for a ‘balanced’ answer of good and bad things. My recent managers have never said anything negative or given me things to work on because they haven’t known me long enough to form any real opinions beyond “she gets stuff done and is a go-to person on multiple topics.” (This is not a good thing since it’s a) very generic and b) I can’t then demonstrate improvement/advancement beyond my current position!)

      Personally I think it’s a crummy question to give to a candidate anyway. If it’s important to know, ask the references directly! But I’m biased as I really think most generic interview questions are lousy and give undue weight to people who have the “right” answers, meaning the answers the interviewer is expecting or somehow sound impressive, even if they’re not the most accurate answers. Like in this case, expecting Sales not sales to just know to include negatives as well as positives, rather than asking directly about negatives.

  90. Umm...*

    I am an expert in a field related to teapot standards. My current job is not in teapot standards. (More like ceramics casting.)

    Seeing a need in the company I work for, I offered my expertise for a specific project and was put in touch with the people working on it. The project became a committee became a standing committee became a committee with a different scope and so on.

    Everyone quit the committee, myself included.

    My own final straw was that my supervisor contradicted facts and refused to listen when I tried to warn him against breaking federal law governing teapot standards. It was clear that my expertise is not valued here and I should focus my efforts on less controversial professional goals.

    Now a new training plan for teapot standards has been drafted, and I’m being, well, drafted, to serve as a SME and sign off on it. I tried to say no, but was handed the project to review anyway. It’s bad. It’s going to do harm. How do I keep my name off this?

    1. animaniactoo*

      Is it not possible to be honest in your review and say “You came to me for SME, and that is my SME opinion”?

    2. The New Wanderer*

      Do you have a manager above your supervisor to talk about this with? Start with that person and then see about going to the person ultimately in charge of the plan (whoever the committee reports out to). I would lay out your issues with the plan and that you do not feel comfortable signing off on the plan as is. If it matters to them to have your signature, decline to sign unless your concerns are addressed. If it doesn’t, they’ll take your name off.

  91. Leah*

    It is me again! With my job-searching saga! I hope you guys are not tired of me yet :’)

    As some of you know I am trying to relocate to the UK for a while now, and a couple of months ago I applied to a job in a city I would love to live in and for a job I knew I was at least 70% qualified for and would be a great step up in my career. A couple of days later HR contacted me, saying that they wanted someone a bit more experienced for that job, but they had another opportunity that was more or less what I currently do. Unfortunately the job paid about 5k less than the minimum I hoped to get when I relocated, but they said that they’re posting a more junior position much like the one I originally applied for later in the year that aligns with my salary expectations, and that they’ll let me know but I should also keep an eye out for it. Since then I have been following the company’s LinkedIn and receive e-mail notifications every time they post new opportunities on LinkedIn.

    My question is: I’ve been itching to talk to HR and ask for more details, things like what the timeline is for this new job to be posted, the name of the job, and if I should develop/study some sort of skill that will help me in the running when I apply later on. This company aligns with my personal values, their product seems really exciting, and the city is exactly the place I want to live in (not to mention that I am in a bit of a tight timeline – because of Brexit it would be best if I relocated before October – so I admit I’m feeling a bit antsy).

    I’m ofc still job searching because I will move somewhere else if something shows up before they post this job, but this place would be my first choice for sure. Should I e-mail HR to ask? Would this appear too pushy? Am I overthinking this?

    (just an addendum: no, it’s not London; it’s a city near London that I’ve been to before and really like and is a lot cheaper to live in, but has A LOT less opportunities that fit my profile)

    1. Colette*

      I wouldn’t ask. The job is not a certainty (budgets could get cut, the organization could change, someone could get promoted that will then cause a gap at a different level). And even if the job does get posted, there’s no guarantee you’ll get it.

      Asking them might help you feel less anxious, but you’d be better off pretending they hadn’t mentioned it at all.

    2. peanutbutty*

      As someone in the UK I would also add everything about Brexit is a total mess: (in my field at least) we still have zero idea about its implications for funding, finances, international collaborations etc. Business are leaving or threatening to leave, lots of EU staff are uncertain as to whether they will be allowed to stay so we have no idea about implications for resourcing current roles never mind future ones… It’s pretty much impossible to plan anything with a reasonable degree of certainty right now. So the chances are they have very little certainty themselves and may well be waiting to see what happens in October before deciding if/ when to recruit this other post.
      I would be applying for jobs that are currently advertised and definitely not hold out for something that may/not happen.

      1. Epiphyta*

        Seconding this: my spouse’s employer rolled up the mats in March, and everyone in the London office was offered severance or to move to the offices in Paris or the Netherlands. There are simply too many questions – will professional qualifications be recognised? If someone from the UK office needs two different visas for a week’s business travel and a competitor can simply put someone on a plane, how much of a hit will training delivery take? – with no firm answers, and the C-suite finally got tired of waiting.

  92. Fake Old Converse Shoes (not in the US)*

    So, yesterday we had the fourth resignation in three weeks. As I’m located near the owner’s office and our “walls” are nothing but cheap cubicles separators, I heard their conversation. Let me tell you something, it was infuriating. The owner tried to guilt trip my coworker masking it as a poor concerned parent impression, offering money, and perks nobody has.
    At the same time, we found out really negative ratings and reviews in our local Glassdoor. Nothing said there is false, and we don’t know who wrote this, but we fear the owner will try to hunt down the author.

      2. Fake Old Converse Shoes (not in the US)*

        He can’t afford to fire anyone, but he can certainly be rude and make your life hell, perhaps with the help of his “friend” the nosy receptionist who loves policing everyone’s arrival and departure times.

    2. ContemporaryIssued*

      Sinking ship perhaps? The irrational owner does not spell good things.

      I kind of wish I had your perspective on the people leaving my company. I’ve heard rumors about people asking for raises after doing great and not getting them, but I wonder whether it’s true or not.

  93. Not an Exhibit at the Petting Zoo*

    In a tattoo-friendly workplace, do you think being heavily tattooed can still work against you?

    I work for the Canadian federal government. Our Prime Minister is tattooed. The highest-ranking person in my department is visibly tattooed. Several people above me in the hierarchy are also visibly tattooed, as am I (smallish tattoo on my forearm. I also have five large ones that you can’t see in my work clothes). The tattoo doesn’t seem to be hurting my prospects at all.

    However, no one has anything like full sleeves or big hand/neck tattoos (I have seen small discreet hand tattoos that could be easily overlooked in an interview). I want full sleeves, stopping just above the wrist, but I honestly can’t tell if they’d be frowned upon.

    My organization does have a policy for uniformed personnel (which sometimes includes me and sometimes doesn’t) that prohibits piercings and unnatural hair colours but not tattoos.

    1. Bunny Girl*

      I don’t think it would hurt to ask – Or don’t. Just get what you want and then ask if it’s okay to have them on display. Maybe people don’t have full sleeves because it’s not really their thing. I might not Mike Tyson my face in that environment but I’ve seen professionals with full sleeves – I don’t think it’s a big deal. You might only need to wear long sleeves in external meetings or when you are interacting with the public.

    2. Mrs. T. Potts*

      I have a colleague who has hand tattoos and full sleeves. As far as I know, nobody has ever said anything to him about them. He does wear long-sleeved clothing b/c he feels it’s more professional.

      I’d suggest asking your colleagues what their experience has been.

      I think it’s cool that your PM is tattooed, BTW!

    3. Colette*

      Based on the people I know in the Canadian federal government, I think you’re fine (and you’d be able to cover the tattoos if you really needed to.)

    4. I'm A Little Teapot*

      I’ve known many professionals who had extensive tattoos. The big commonality has been those tattoos are generally in locations that are reasonably hidden by standard clothing.

  94. Iconic Iceberg Lettuce*

    Clash of the Directors S1.E9

    The Program Director (PD) submitted their resignation and will depart at the end of the month. Therefore there’s no other director for the Executive Director (ED) or Development Director (DD) to clash with.. yet. We’re not sure if the ED will hire another PD or two Program Managers (PM’s). We hope for two people to make a three-person department for the workload. The PM is in a good place as next week the ED and DD are out on conference and the DD will be out on vacation after that. So we’re stressed to find a replacement but we’re not stressing too hard.

    On the same day, the Office Manager (OM) retired, after 40 years with the brand and this office. They, too, will depart at the end of the month. Not sure how that position will be changed or filled.

    The Events Manager (EM) will be on maternity leave until through the summer. We’re not sure if she’s returning but we might ask, as we’re visiting her next week.

  95. Me--Blargh!*

    *sigh*

    Welp, I bit the bullet. The realtor is coming over today with paperwork. I’m selling the house and getting out. So soon, I shall be the stereotypical nerd-in-their-mother’s-basement for a while. My sibling just moved into a new house and offered to store my stuff; he said they have plenty of room in his basement and he refuses to charge me. That’s a big help; it means I don’t have to pay for storage (it would need to be climate-controlled and is expensive everywhere). And if I get a job anywhere besides BiggerCity, I’m free to leave and can come back for it later. I’m letting go of nearly all my furniture and trying to cull everything else I can replace later.

    I am praying to every deity that I find a fast way out of the basement, preferably the creative mentorship I applied to. But if that doesn’t happen and I can’t find anything good in BiggerCity, which is currently [sort of] in decline, I may just nope out to California anyway. At least if I end up homeless, I won’t freeze. :P

    This better be worth it.

      1. Me--Blargh!*

        Thank you. I think it will be much easier to find a job there once I’m actually there. 200 miles isn’t that far away, but no one wants to wait for an admin to move, and I’m pretty sure not being there has already cost me one opportunity. I guess I’ll be temping in the meantime; I’ll get that set up once I’m over there.

        Of course, if I get the other thing, I’d be out of here completely and wouldn’t have to worry about BiggerCity. Same rules apply–it’s easier to get a job when you’re local. And if I don’t get the thing, maybe I’ll find something at a company with an office in L.A. and I can transfer.

    2. Reba*

      Big news! Winds of change, etc. Really hope that things work out for you quickly and glad you have a few folks you can lean on in the transition.

    3. NewNameTemporarily*

      Rooting for you. I know you’ve been struggling with the house, the decision, and the financial issues… glad you have momentum. Don’t look back. And… CA is warmer! Come on over.

      1. Me--Blargh!*

        I would have already, if I had somewhere to stay. When I moved out there before, I had people’s couches to crash on. I don’t have that now.

        I wish I’d just done it when I still had that money from my 401K, but I honestly thought I’d find a job way before now. :(

    4. Business Librarian*

      I am so crossing my fingers/lighting a candle/holding a four-leaf clover for you! BEAMS OF GOOD FORTUNE>YOU!

    5. Windchime*

      I’m rooting for you! I really feel like you are just in the wrong physical location; you seem like such a hard-working, reasonable, and kind person and I’m sure that you will find the right job when you reach your new location. I’m sending you good vibes and picturing you in a sunny little house or apartment, coming and going from your fabulous new job. Keep us posted!

  96. CMart*

    Is an escaped indoor kitty a reasonable thing to not come into work for, if there are pressing deadlines?

    Trying to weigh “desperately searching for my cat” against “really important, can’t be rescheduled meeting that can’t really run without me” when it comes to making appropriate choices.

    1. Em from CT*

      Unfortunately, I think this is one of those things that really depends on knowing your office culture. From what you said, my instinct is that you probably have to go in for the meeting—though as a cat owner I can absolutely say I’d hate making that decision! But if your office culture is such that you could get away with “I had a personal emergency” and it wouldn’t impact your professional reputation—well, you could maybe stay home.

      (What about splitting the difference, and going in for the meeting but then immediately leaving?)

      I’m so sorry. :(

    2. Admin of Sys*

      Assuming that the travel time isn’t insane, I’d go in specifically for the meeting but then head back home and search for kitty (re: temporary emergency, so sorry).
      Suggestion on the finding the cat – put dirty laundry that smells of you out on the porch / somewhere outside and nearby. Cat will smell their human and come snuggle with the soft clothing. This is reported to sometimes work even better than going around and calling for the cat, since big human stomping around can read as scary, even if it’s the cat’s personal big human.

    3. Close Bracket*

      I’m sorry about your kitty! My indoor cat got out, and I was beside myself. Escaped cats typically stay pretty close to the exit they escaped from. You don’t have to search too far. You might be able to borrow a humane trap from your vet. I would put out some water and food by the exits, go to work for a half day, and come home to start the search. Give whatever excuse you need that is not cat related.

      1. WellRed*

        Yes, both times we lost a cat, it hadn’t strayed from the bushes/trashcans next to the house. Of course, both were black and once escaped at night.

    4. Ask a Manager* Post author

      Good lord, stay and find your kitty. If your office culture isn’t one that would get that, say you have an emergency you need to deal with at home, because you do. Good luck!

      1. CMart*

        Thanks!

        Kitty was found safe and meeting was covered.

        I didn’t mention this was a meeting with external clients – which is why I felt conflicted. I was a little surprised to see you so supportive of Team Kitty Search!

        3. Windchime*

          Are you kidding? Alison has five kitties; I feel sure that I know which team she would be on! :) And I know it sounds cliche, but my cat is a family member to me and I would be devastated if he got out and was lost (as it seems that you would be, too!). So I would have to vote to stay home and look for him. As others have said, it’s OK to put this in the “unexpected family emergency” category if you feel people wouldn’t be supportive of the truth.

    5. Mediamaven*

      As a boss, that is a very legitimate reason to call out. I also have three kitties so I’m biased. I hope kitty comes home!

    6. Aggretsuko*

      I’d go to the meeting and hope my cat is smart enough to hang around the front door waiting for me by the time I get back (this based on experience with my roommate’s cat doing same).

    7. CatMintCat*

      I’m glad you found your kitty. It’s so scary when they do that.

      If it happens again, try putting the litterbox outside the door – I’ve used that trick successfully before. As has been said they don’t usually go too far, and the smell (erk) will bring them home.

      1. Susannah*

        110% on team kitty. You never know what could happen- and imagine how bad it would be if you didn’t find the cat and had to feel like you’d lost the cat b/c of the meeting. Also- if you had been hit by a bus they would not have imploded d/t lack of you at the meeting. (This is something I tell myself when I also get anxious about having to miss things and its usually true and usually works)

  97. Alice*

    Sigh. A few weeks ago we needed to send some llamas to fill our quarterly quotas. Unfortunately ours are defective experimental llamas so as much as 40% of them can be faulty and we always send extras just in case. I crunched the numbers and figured, based on projections from the previous year, we needed to send 3500 more llamas. My manager told me we’d already sent too many and to send just 1500 instead. No amount of arguing could change her mind that 3500 was way too many.

    Fast forward to today and there’s an irate email from my manager “I just looked at the totals for this quarter and we only have 4300 working llamas instead of the 6000 we were supposed to, wtf???”
    I’m so, so very tempted to just forward her the emails where she told me not to send the extra 2000 llamas like I wanted, and be done with it.

    Rant over. It’s been a long week.

    1. Rusty Shackelford*

      I’d do it. “Sorry, did I misunderstand this email (attached) where you told me to send 1500 llamas?”

      1. Environmental Compliance*

        +100

        This is exactly how I handled a former boss who would tell me explicitly not to do X (when doing X was the SOP), even if I brought up concerns, and then later would get mad at me for doing X. I wanted what was happening documented. And those documents saved my butt a couple times.

    2. animaniactoo*

      “Unfortunately, the llamas have a high failure rate. You may remember that I wanted to send significantly more llamas than you were willing to approve, the extra llamas were intended to cover this kind of gap. Would you like me to send the additional llamas now?”

    3. Admin of Sys*

      I would absolutely say something like ‘per our conversation in April (See attached), it was decided that the cost of supplying the extra llamas to cover the gap was too costly. Do we want to adjust that strategy going forward, or set a different price point for minimum llama coverage?’

    4. Alice*

      Bit late to reply but I wanted to reassure you I definitely brought receipts, especially since a coworker took it upon herself to helpfully crunch the numbers and sent a batty email saying (and I quote literally) “I was wondering why our numbers were so low even though Alice sent a great amount and I found out those llamas are very faulty, did anyone know?!” … thanks Karen.

      However I am not yet done with this mess since now I need to arrange for the extra llamas that needed to be delivered a week ago. I worked on Saturday (while my awesome boyfriend made dinner and cleaned) and I am NOT happy.

  98. Argh!!!*

    How do you respond to a coworker who comes up with really strange and silly excuses for why they can’t take on a task? While most of my team members are very proactive, just-get-it-done kind of people, one of my coworkers is…. I’m not sure how to describe it, except that I get the impression that he thinks he’s above doing anything he considers “menial” or “beneath him” which actually includes many aspects of his own job. For example, he had concerns about cleanliness and hygiene when asked to empty a shred bin (so the rest of us just empty them for him.) He doesn’t learn about updates to our procedures or assignments because “the emails are too long.” He requested a temp come in to do his job for him for a couple of months because the task was too much. Just yesterday, his excuse for not being able to do a task in a new way was “I can’t cut paper in straight lines,” and his response to being told that we actually have a paper cutter was a shrug and “I can’t.”

    I don’t want to argue with a grown man in his thirties about his ability to cut paper in a straight line, I don’t want to “show” him how to do it to force him to learn, and I don’t exactly think going to management with “My coworker can’t cut in straight lines, wtf??” will help. I’ve already gone to them with bigger concerns and been completely brushed off. What do I even say in response to being told something like this without bursting into incredulous laughter? My stellar replies so far have been along the lines of, “UH….. okay, I guess.”

    Not gonna lie, I’m daydreaming of making passive aggressive remarks like, “Well, I guess I’ll just take over this task for you because I DO know how to cut paper in straight lines,” and “Sorry, but I definitely can’t give you higher level work because if you can’t even be trusted to cut paper in straight lines, how can we assign you complex tax documents for a client?” I am refraining, just barely.

    1. ArtK*

      Make this your boss’ problem. The guy is a slacker and it’s not your job to make him do the work. Don’t do his job for him. Don’t empty his bins. Don’t do anything for him. Let the tasks be uncompleted and make sure that boss knows about them and why they’re not done.

      1. Argh!!!*

        I’d love to, but his manager is offsite and has already gotten plenty of reports about his slacking, so one more to the stack is unlikely to make a difference, unfortunately. In my company, I feel a strong duty to make sure that clients get top notch service, so it has meant me stepping in to fill his shoes so that clients don’t receive subpar work. Letting these things slip would also impact my job as well.

        1. ArtK*

          I understand the feeling that you owe something to your clients. I have the same attitude. The problem is that this allows the slacker to make it your problem, when it should be the bosses problem. I see your choices as: 1) Step in and feel resentment for the slacker every time; 2) Take the risk that some customers will get less-than-excellent service and that the boss will notice; 3) Look for a new place. Right now, carrying the slacker on the payroll doesn’t cost the boss anything except having to listen to the occasional complaint from coworkers.

          1. Anne (with an “e”)*

            +100

            This needs to be your manager’s problem. You are not being paid to do your job and parts of your coworker’s job. As long as you continue to make up your coworker’s slack he will get away with it, your boss will not notice or realize that it’s an issue, and your resentment will grow. I bet your coworker also will find ways more to slack off even more. Next thing you know he won’t be able to cut out circles, color inside the lines, or sign his own name.

            Also, your coworker is lazy and a leech.

          2. Mellow*

            ArtK is exactly right, IMO. This is your boss’s situation manage, and consequence(s) to hear for not doing so.

            Save your energy and stellar work ethic for yourself.

            I have a similar no- boss boss and right now he is in some very hot water with his boss for allowing a similar situation to blow up.

            Do your own work and enjoy the satisfaction of watching things play out as they should.

            1. Mellow*

              fast fingers, sorry…This is your boss’s situation to manage, and consequence(s) to bear…

        2. Kathenus*

          This is one of those situations where you might have to make a choice. Right now he has no consequences – management isn’t making him do it and you want to protect the client so you step in and do it. I think you have to either keep doing it but stop letting it frustrate you since you can’t change his behavior (because then you are unhappy but he doesn’t care), or you need to stop covering for him and let him deal with the consequences of his behavior which means that clients need to be impacted which might cause management to step in. But right now he has no reason to change what he’s doing, because he’s getting exactly what he wants by refusing to do it. Very frustrating as you don’t have authority over him, so make a choice of what you can control – which is either your behavior (stop doing the extra work) or your reaction (of letting him frustrate you). Good luck.

    2. animaniactoo*

      “Hmmm. Alright, well, I’ve got enough work to do emptying my own bin/cutting my own straight lines. Good luck figuring out how to take care of that.”

      “Oh, we can’t give you more/higher level tasks to do when you’re currently not managing to complete all the tasks you have been given at your level. We’d need to see the commitment to taking care of and finishing all of those yourself before we can look at that.”

      “Alright, if you need help learning how to do that, I’m available. Good luck.”

      1. Argh!!!*

        Oh man, I especially love that last line. I think with some slight modifications I’ll be able to use some of these– thank you!

    3. Construction Safety*

      He related to the folks last week who didn’t know that they needed to turn to the next page or follow the step-by-step in order?

      2. Argh!!!*

        HA! I’ve definitely had issues with him being unable to follow step by step directions before.

    5. ButterflyHigh*

      I’ll be careful with how you approach the situation. While they are odd requests, management shrugging it off might mean there is a hidden disability with him.

      1. Argh!!!*

        Without inappropriate speculation about his personal stuff, I have wondered before if that might be an issue for that specific coworker. That said, I can’t think of a single disability, hidden or otherwise, where you have no issue doing any of the usual office work involving your hands but suddenly fall helpless at the sight of a paper cutter.

        1. Seven hobbits are highly effective, people*

          Paper cutters do make a very specific noise, and using them also has a certain weird “feeling” to it. I’m not sure I can explain…like a grinding crunch reverberating up your arm? Sort of like using a knife and a hole punch at the same time, but a bit drawn out. It’s not something that bothers me, but I could see it being an issue for someone else. (I am bothered by lots of other noises, such as vacuum cleaners and anything with lots of bass.)

          However, this particular constellation of things that he doesn’t want to do don’t all seem related in that way, and anyway, it’s on him to work with his boss and/or HR if there are parts of his job he needs adjusted for medical reasons rather than just noping to co-workers about tasks.

          1. valentine*

            management shrugging it off might mean there is a hidden disability with him.
            They’d still be wrong to do that and it still wouldn’t be Argh!!!’s job to assign herself to be his accommodation, especially if they’re a woman, because this smells like sexism.

  99. Mrs. T. Potts*

    I work at a college library, where I’m a library assistant/aide. All the “clerical workers” at my institution make about the same salary. I like the library but not the department I’m in. It’s somewhat toxic, for various reasons. Also, I’d like to work a regular, 9-5, M-F shift (I’m on 2nd shift now, with weekends), because there are classes and activities that I feel would vastly improve my life that I cannot take because of my hours.

    That said, I’d like to apply for another clerical job at the college. How do I answer that ever-popular question,
    “Why do you want this job?” when my reasons are purely personal? I’m open to any other advice. Thank you!

    1. Colette*

      Talk about what you like about the work you’d be doing (be specific) – and then you can mention that you’re looking for a more regular shift. But start with the work.

    2. Rusty Shackelford*

      Keep in mind that this question isn’t asking why you’re leaving your existing job; they want to know why you’re interested in theirs. So yes, tell them you’d like a more regular schedule. This is good and relevant information. But also find something specific about the role you’re applying for. “I want to stay at the university, but I’d like a more regular weekday schedule. And when I saw that you work with X, that was very appealing to me.”

      1. Mrs. T. Potts*

        Thank you both.

        What if I’m not particularly interested in the work itself? Honestly, my main motivation is to get out of this department. Is this a bad idea? To me, no clerical work is particularly interesting, but it’s the best I can do right now.

        1. Hope*

          You don’t always have to be 100% honest about your motivations. After all, most people aren’t going to say “I want this job because I need money to buy things I need to live”, even though that’s the actual motivation. You mostly need to say something plausible, that is going to make them understand you want to work there.

        2. Fuzz Frogs*

          You might say something like, “I like my current job but I’m feeling the need to learn new things and gain new skills. Your department seemed like a good opportunity to learn something new.” Then mention a specific task the job involves that you don’t do, and/or, mention how this job focuses on x, which you enjoy doing and you’d like to do more of.

          I feel like a college department couldn’t fault you if you tried to sell the move as wanting to grow and learn, as that is the general goal of college.

  100. puddle bubble*

    Has anyone ever moved before finding a job? I’ve been scouring the internet for stories from people who’ve done this and now I want to know if anyone from the AAM community has done it as well.

    1. Anonymous Educator*

      I’ve decided to move (and actually given notice to my current employer) before finding a new job, but I haven’t actually done the physical move itself before finding a job.

    2. Countess Boochie Flagrante*

      I’ve done it. It was not a good experience, and I wouldn’t have moved when I did if I had had any control of the situation. Long story short, I wound up spending ~4mos working part-time for minimum wage and living with the roommate from hell, lost a ton of weight in the most unhealthy way possible, and generally screwed myself over.

      To be fair, this was at the beginning of 2010, so the economy at the ground level was still feeling the Great Recession. If you’re going to do it nowadays, you might have better luck. I would encourage you strongly to have some kind of support network in place wherever you’re headed. I had a couple amazing friends in the city I moved to, and their support was utterly priceless as I tried to get my feet under me.

    3. Sprechen Sie Talk?*

      I have – three times. It gets harder each time, let me tell you.

      First one, right after graduating and I was moving to someone overseas and that ended up ok – I got a job relatively close to my field after three weeks and it worked out well.

      Second time – I was relocating from one part of the US to another and was having far too much difficulty job searching remotely. So I packed up and moved back with my parents for 9 months while I found something in a bigger regional city. That worked out so-so, but it got me into the right region at least.

      Third time – We moved US-UK without jobs and slept on my friends floor for 9 months while we looked and looked and looked. With more experience under my belt I thought it would be a cinch. It was excruciating and exhausting, but we made it. Eventually I DID end up in a pretty good role with a good salary, but there were weeks when I wasn’t sure what I was doing anymore. We brought a ton of money with us to cover up to a year, and we knew the drop dead amount, but it was still tiresome.

      The main risk in all this is that you run out of money or are forced to take something not as good/below your skill set to ‘survive’ and then end up still there a few years later. If you take a part time job like bartending or something while you look the rest of the time that is one thing, but to take a step back in your career to get anything well, definitely be on the lookout for that. Note – I work in something with heavy competition and certain gatekeeper requirements (that I don’t have) so that is why it takes me some time to find new roles. If you do work that is more broadly recognized/translatable like accountacy then that could be a different ball game.

      I keep saying we will never do it again but frankly we are starting to consider moving home to the US in a year or 18 months with or without jobs, especially if the economy continues on decently in the US. But if we go that route then I intend to have a proper safety net of online income source built up of some sort in advance through freelance work.

    4. Red Reader the Adulting Fairy*

      Twice. When I was 20 (summer 2001), I moved from the Midwest to Seattle with $400 and an offer of a couch to crash on for a couple weeks, but no job. I found a temp gig within my couple weeks and roomed with a friend who was in a situation where she could cover our deposit and let me pay her back over the first couple months. Stayed in Seattle for almost 11 years.

      In June 2012, I moved back to the Midwest (different state) at 31 with no job, but a living situation pre-arranged through the end of the summer and having saved up $12k and paid off all my unsecured debt. In that situation, I stayed unemployed until August 2013, got a part-time minimum wage job until December 2013, and was headhunted in January 2014 for a temp contract in my career field that I never actually applied for. I was then hired on to that organization permanently in July 2014 and have been promoted into management since then. So it’s worked out for me well enough, at least. :)

    5. That Would be a Good Band Name*

      I have, but my spouse had a job so it wasn’t a complete leap of faith. I was able to get a job through a temp agency within a couple of weeks of being there. I also have a friend who moved halfway across the country (US) with nothing lined up and the only place to stay was the couch of some people she had met on an internet message board. (She had not met them in person prior to moving to live on their couch). This was back in 2001. She found a job not long after she got there that ended up turning into her career. She definitely ended up overstaying her welcome with the people whose couch she was crashing on. I think she was out there over a year before she got her own apartment. So I’d recommend having your housing figured out and a decent cushion in case your job search takes longer than anticipated.

    6. fhqwhgads*

      I’ve done it but the more I think about it, the more I’m convinced a lot of luck was involved in it working out for me. Basically I graduated college and knew I did not want to live in College Town, nor did I want to live in Any Cities Previously Lived In. Chose a city I did think I wanted to live in, and had reasonablish reasons to think I could probably get a job in Field. Moved. Applied. Had two interviews and got two offers. Took one.

      However, having heard plenty of other people’s stories since, even though it seemed reasonable to think I had good prospects, and even though it worked out pretty much exactly as I’d anticipated before doing it (which you’d think would be confirmation it was logical), I cannot recommend this path because one’s ability to know whether one’s prospects are actually good in the new location are probably a lot less than they may feel like from afar.

  101. Nicki Name*

    I think I’m experiencing a new feeling at work.

    All my past job changes have been either layoffs or escapes from workplaces that turned toxic. I’m comfortable in my current job, but it’s been a few years, I’m feeling increasingly unmotivated, and I think I’m… bored? Like that’s a thing that can actually happen?

    I guess it’s time to freshen up the ol’ resume.

    1. sunshyne84*

      It definitely happens. You probably need something more challenging. After a few years you probably know your job like the back of your hand so you need to think about what you can do that will take you to the next level if there is one. Or what other interests you have that could use your experience.

    2. AnonToday*

      This is exactly why I started looking. It’s a great job in many ways- lovely coworkers, nice place to live, reasonable pay, but it is totally deadend. So, I started looking.

  102. Pocket Mouse*

    I have a work friend going through a really rough time right now due to personal and professional situations, with the biggest factor being a personal situation that has some overlap with the professional sphere. This person has depression that, until recently, appeared to be under control.

    I know the broad strokes of what they’re going through but they’ve indicated a couple times they don’t want to talk about it (at least at work), and I haven’t asked for details, in part because I know the main player in the tough personal situation. We work closely together but live far away from each other and with one exception have only hung out outside of work in the company of other colleagues. This is someone I would love to have a real, not-just-at-work friendship with.

    My question: what can I do to help, beyond maintaining our work-friend interactions and keeping things off their plate as much as possible? (I don’t have much control over this, it mainly means dealing with small annoying questions/situations on my own instead of roping them in.) I know everyone has different needs and desires, but I would especially love perspectives from folks who have dealt with depression triggered by events.

    1. valentine*

      keeping things off their plate as much as possible? (I don’t have much control over this, it mainly means dealing with small annoying questions/situations on my own instead of roping them in.)
      Ask whether they want you to do this, as it could backfire, seeming to reinforce their negative self-view.

      1. Pocket Mouse*

        Thanks for your reply, valentine. You’re right that I was thanking more about what I would want than what this person might want—hence asking for input from others!

        In terms of keeping things off their plate as much as possible, I really was referring to low-level annoying things either of us could handle, and each have handled before. My taking the brunt of these frees their time and attention up for the more critical, skill-specific aspects of their job. And of course there are things they do need to be looped into and I would stay the course on those. Anyway, I’m not sure self view around work activities is a factor. It seems to be more of a mired-in-suckiness situation, perhaps with negative self view in the personal realm (I’m not in a position to say one way or the other), and the result is difficulty facing the demands of our workplace with the usual energy and affect.

        1. Mellow*

          Careful here, Pocket Mouse.

          You sound like a lovely person who simply wants to help alleviate another person’s pain and that’s probably how you see your efforts, too.

          But boundaries are important here. Has the person requested your help? What will helping this person accomplish? Most of all, have you subconsciously attached strings to your help, i.e. maybe you’ll get the friendship you want from helping, which would be an unfair approach to securing that friendship.

          As hard as it can be for us to stay on the sidelines, sometimes problems have to live by their own accord if they are to be sustainably solved.

          If it were me, I’d be paying attention to my own motives before even considering helping.

  103. MiloSpiral*

    Hi AAM coommunity,

    I work at a mid-sized company. My contract states that I have to work exactly forty hours every week–no more, no less. Even though I am salaried, I log my time on a timesheet to keep track of this.

    My state does not require that employers give rest breaks–only unpaid half hour meal breaks, which you can work through and be paid for if you choose to. However, like lots of businesses here, my company does give us one fifteen-minute paid rest break. When I was first hired, it was suggested that to make the policy work best for me, I take the fifteen-minute rest break as part of my lunch break, thus needing to log fifteen minutes less of however long my lunch was. Usually I will take a half hour meal break and log it as fifteen minutes.

    How this ends up shaking out is that by Friday, I’m 1.25 hours short of my required 40. I’ve tried to start making up for that by staying an extra 15 minutes every day (so working 9:00 to 5:15), but because I have ADHD, this is complicated by the fact that it’s very hard for me to get into work on time, so I usually get into work at 9:15. My boss and I have worked out that this is okay, but it still means I have to make up 15 minutes on the back end.

    I am working, slowly, on getting to work closer to 9, not only because it’s good to be on time for work, but consistency is better for my brain. However, also due to my ADHD, I often find that I want to get up during the day and take a walk, clear my head, do something active to give my eyes a break from the screen and my brain a break from work. However, I feel like I can’t do that, because if I take time away from my desk, I’ll have to make it up by working on the weekend or working increasingly later and later into the day. If you have ADHD, you can imagine that this is a recipe for disaster.

    I’m growing increasingly frustrated with the way my contract is set up, and today I asked a coworker who has been here longer than me how he manages it. He said that he doesn’t even log his lunch time! He puts on his timesheet that he works 9 am to 5 pm, every day, without a meal break, but he definitely takes at least a half hour every day for lunch. He says he’s never had a problem with it.

    I am torn. I want to do what my coworker is doing so that I can stop working on the weekends or later than everybody else, and stop feeling so resentful. I get my work down within the week just like everyone else who is salaried; I don’t *need* that extra time to get my work done and hit 40 hours. However, it feels dishonest. But, if I go to HR and talk to them about my predicament, and they say “that sucks, but it’s how your contract is worked out,” then I *really* can’t do what my coworker is doing. What do I do?

    1. The Man, Becky Lynch*

      My head hurts reading this and I don’t even have that bad of ADHD. What? This is absurd.

      You’re mandated to take a 30 minute meal period, so there’s no “oh just add it to your break” on there. Also ANY COMPANY that gives you ONE FIFTEEN MINUTE PAID BREAK is asinine and monsters. Even if the state laws don’t dictate it, it’s standard practice at this rate for most places, so my head is screaming twice as loud. You shouldn’t have to worry about not being able to get from your desk, unless you’re working with billable hours.

      I think your coworker found a good workaround there. We just automatically “assume” a lunch break for salary employees. So they work say 8-4:30, it just is what it is.

      So I would say that you do the same. And take your fifteen minutes when you get that urge to get up and walk around. Screw their “suggestion” about tacking it to your lunch, that’s absurd!

      1. MiloSpiral*

        Hi there Becky,

        Thanks for your response! To clarify, my *workplace* is mandated to give me 30 minutes unpaid, and I may choose to work through it and be paid. I am not mandated to take that 30 minute break. However, they give one 15 min break, paid, which I can use to cut that 30 minutes of unpaid time in half. But yes, it is convoluted and it took me a while to get my head wrapped around it.

        I looked at the employee handbook yesterday, and it did indeed outline the 30 minute unpaid meal break, but didn’t even mention the 15 minute paid one. However, I’m sure that HR told me last year that I was entitled to one. The fact that this isn’t written in the handbook, makes me feel like this is some sort of unspoken thing, and that they are putting the part in about 30 minutes unpaid for the principle of the thing, rather than the spirit of it. To be honest, the spirit is very out of line with what I’ve encountered from my company so far, so I may be taking it a bit too literally. Perhaps they are assuming a lunch break for me, as you say!

    2. Colette*

      Your problem is math – you cannot work 8 hours + 30 minutes for lunch in an 8 hour time period. If you get in at 9:15, you have to stay until 5:15 to get 8 hours in if you take no breaks.

      Also, I don’t think a quick walk around the floor is a break (although if you want to go outside for a walk, that would be a break). Similarly, an occasional conversation with coworkers is not a break, even if it’s not entirely work related. You are not robots.

      Could you take 15 minutes for lunch?

      1. MiloSpiral*

        Hi Colette,

        Thanks for your response! Could I take 15 minutes for lunch? Sure, but not without significant toll over time to my mental health. In order to function, I need at least a half hour of time away from my desk.

    3. SplendidSparkle*

      You don’t have to log out to take a walk around your office. You don’t have to log out every time you leave your desk. You’re being too restrictive on yourself!

      Your contract sucks, and like Colette said, is impossible to do in a 9-5 workday. Do as your coworker does – log a full day, take that 15 minute break whenever you want to, and don’t sweat it.

      1. MiloSpiral*

        Thanks, SplendidSparkle, I really appreciate your kind response! If it’s not obvious from my question, I am young and also quite new to office work as well as salaried work… taking the policy so literally may be a leftover habit from my old hourly wage days, which were not too long ago!

    4. Jen2*

      Do you know what kind of contract everyone else has? And how many of them report to the same manager? I think it’s worth going back to your manager to clarify why you are required to work longer than the rest of your coworkers.

      1. MiloSpiral*

        Hi Jen2,

        Thanks for your response! I know that my entire department has a similar contract to me–we must work 40 hours a week, no more, no less. The coworker I talked to is in my dept. I am a “non-exempt” employee, which means I that if I work more than 40 hours a week, I must be paid overtime, which is something my company wants to avoid (and frankly working over hours is something I want to avoid as well!). As far as I know, the rest of the departments in my company do not have this contract–I have a friend who works in a different dept.; she is salaried and exempt, and as long as she comes in and is at work, 9 to 5, and gets her work done within that time, regardless of the kind of lunch she takes, she’s fine. She does not log her hours on a timesheet.

        I believe the reason why our contracts are different is because the work we do is quite seasonal and cyclical–it is a subfield of education. The work I do is even more cyclical than other depts–at this time of year, especially, there’s just not that much work for us to do, so we actually get about four weeks of paid vacation in the summer, on top of regular accrued vacation time. The fact that this year is in the slow period, I think is also partially why I am feeling so resentful of this policy. It feels like I’m filling time that I don’t *need* in order to do my job.

    5. That Would be a Good Band Name*

      My brain is hurting from this. Only one 15 minute break is absurd. If you are working 9-5 that is only 8 hours. To take a 30 minute unpaid lunch AND work 8 hours, that has to be 9-530p. I am wondering if you are conflating some portions of this. If the typical work day is supposed to be ONLY 9-5, then they may only expect you to work 7.5 hours per day. Which would mean your timesheet would consist of 37.5 hours of worked time and 2.5 hours of lunch time to get to 40 hours recorded on your timesheet. I wouldn’t record the paid break unless they require it.

      1. MiloSpiral*

        Hi Band Name,

        Thank you for your response! I wonder if I am conflating portions of this, too. I looked at the employee handbook yesterday, and it did indeed outline the 30 minute unpaid meal break, but didn’t even mention the 15 minute paid one. However, I’m sure that HR told me last year that I was entitled to one. The fact that this isn’t written in the handbook, makes me feel like this is some sort of unspoken thing, and that they are putting the part in about 30 minutes unpaid for the principle of the thing, rather than the spirit of it. It’s certainly very unlike the overall spirit of my company that I’ve encountered, which is trusting and flexible!

        Until very recently, my timesheet did have a column on it for “Lunch Breaks” and a column for “Other Breaks.” We’ve recently switched over systems for HR things, and the new system does not have these distinctions. I’ve been adding rows to my timesheet to count time the way I did with my old timesheet–I seem to have carried over the bad habit from a bad, old system, despite my resentment of it!

    6. Gumby*

      If 9 – 5:15 is fine with a 15-minute lunch (plus 15-minute paid break), then why isn’t 9:15 – 5:30?
      You get there 15 minutes later than planned, you stay 15 minutes later, it all works out in the end.
      Is there some reason you must leave at 5:15?

      Is there even more flexibility available? Like, I sometimes work 7 hours one day and then 9 the following (I do weird things to avoid traffic and no one here cares, OTOH no one cares if I work exactly 40-hours a week either so…).

      1. MiloSpiral*

        Hi Gumby,

        The thing is, it’s not fine with me. It feels really bad to have to work later than most of my coworkers, especially when I don’t actually have that much work to do this time of year (my job is very cyclical and this time of year is very slow). I’m fine with making up time if I’m late, or working a bit late during busy season, but I don’t like the feeling of “I’d like to take a couple extra minutes for lunch today, but I fear having to make that up by staying even later at work” or “I’d like to take a walk outside and clear my head, but I already took my lunch today, and I don’t want to make up the time later.” Especially with ADHD, I can’t rely on my brain to be on and prepared to put that extra time in–except, funnily enough, it’s worse in the long run for my brain if I *don’t* take that time!

        Basically, I’m starting to resent being a salaried employee whose contract feels like that of an hourly worker, who can’t be trusted to get my work done in the 9 – 5 work day, lunches or no lunches. My company culture is generally wonderful and I know that’s not how they actually think, but the sticking so closely to the letter of the law does make me feel that way.

        There is technically more flexibility in that I could work extra hours one day so as not to make it up on the weekends, as long as I hit my forty hours… but that’s reeeeeeally bad for my brain, and regardless, I’m still expected to be in the office from 9 to 5, as that’s when we’re open and I do phone coverage.

        Thank you for your response!

        Thanks for your response!

        1. valentine*

          So you need 45+ minutes of break time while working only 9-5? I think your downfall/salvation is how you are classifying activities. Are you deducting bathroom or other comfort breaks from the 15 minutes? Chatting with colleagues? There’s a wide gap between your stark stance and your “crap on company time” colleague’s (he’s not wrong), and you can experiment with moving towards the middle (closer to his end, really, because this place is horrid).

          1. MiloSpiral*

            Hi Valentine,

            Not necessarily. I need at least 30 minutes away from my desk in order to function each day, not 45+. Because state law requires that employees get 30 minutes for meals every six hours, and that these do not need to be paid, if I take the policy very, very literally, it means I have to make up for that meal time later in order to truly work forty hours, as my salary pays me for. Which, as you have picked up on, is an absurd way to work!

            I am not counting time that I take away from my desk, period (e.g., bathroom breaks, chatting with colleagues, etc.). I do count going outside to take a walk. I’m not necessarily using a stopwatch to monitor my walks or my lunches (I would never remember to do that, in any case!), but I think I am taking a pretty “stark” approach to this, as you say.

            When I asked my colleague how he managed it with paid vs. unpaid break time, he didn’t seem to know what I was talking about, which makes me think that I’m really taking this much too literally, and should just take it that in practice no one does it like that!

            Thanks for your response!

  104. Anonmb*

    I just wanna give a shout out to my new company for being so amazing.

    Long story short:
    – In March, on a Friday, I gave my old company 2 weeks notice.
    – On Sunday, I threw out my back badly (or so I thought).
    – 3 weeks later, I started at new company but was in extreme pain. They were very accommodating – offering to get me water, carry things, giving me a head start on walking to meetings, etc. (Meanwhile after work, I’d sit in my car from pain.)
    – 4 weeks after I started at new company, I managed to get cat scans and an MRI… And ended up getting emergency back surgery.

    It turns out I had a massively herniated disc which led to cauda equina syndrome. I panicked cause:
    A) I was still on probation, so they could totally have fired me and replaced me. The recovery time for my surgery was anywhere from 6-12 weeks.
    B) Technically this was considered a pre-existing condition, and therefore our insurance could deny me. The moment they knew I was going for surgery though, the office manager and my manager called with a game plan for how to help me out in case my claim for disability was denied.

    I ended up on disability for 7 weeks while I recovered. Today marks the end of my first week back. I’m so fortunate. (In fairness, I have a bunch of former colleagues who work here, so at least I had references who would stand up for me.)

  105. ArtK*

    Last Day! At 5PM I’m posting the Who’s “I’m Free” on FB!

    I have a concern about the new job already, though. My manager wanted me to come up before my start date for an interview with the team (there are some internal politics involved with that.) I wrote to him on Monday and then on Wednesday asking if we were still on for next Monday. Nothing. I’m going to have to ring in his boss (my old boss at another job and the guy who recruited me) to see what’s happening. Argh!

    1. Mellow*

      Was the interview formally scheduled for “next Monday”?

      If so, I’d just show up. You’ve tried to confirm but didn’t get a response. You’ve done what you can in that regard.

  106. DeeR*

    First time commenter, but here’s a situation that I could use your collective help with. TLDR: Am torn between my current job and a new one (that I’ve already accepted). Should I stay on and renege on the signed offer letter and burn bridges with the agency, or leave for the new job that I committed to?

    Two weeks ago, I interviewed with and accepted an offer from a federal agency – I’d interviewed with them twice in 2017 (first time, I was their second choice; second time, I withdrew from the interview process to accept an offer from my current job). This time around, I saw the job listing and decided to not apply until a senior employee reached out via LinkedIn and encouraged me to apply. They skipped me past the first round of interviews and invited me directly to the final round. The offer came pretty quickly after that (the initial offer was disappointing, but I negotiated and got them to bump up the overall package by about 9%). Negotiated a two month start date delay and was planning to provide notice to my current employer in mid-August – essentially, I’ve signed the offer letter, but haven’t provided any info for the background clearance investigation yet. The new job informed me that they’d been trying to get me onboard for 3 years and I accepted because I really did love all the people I interviewed with. Plus, the benefits package is great and so is the leave. Downside is that I move back to an individual contributor role and my salary trajectory is going to be flat for years to come.

    Just found out today that I got an exceeds expectations rating AND got promoted at my current job. This was a partial surprise (I had to prepare a promotion package and schmooze with various senior leadership to persuade them to support my promotion, but I also knew the competition was tough and didn’t think I’d get it this year. Frequently, people at my firm have to go up for promotion twice before they get it; I got it the first time around). Am truly torn. This promotion (and the accompanying raise and bonus) is going to set me on a fantastic career trajectory and salary progression, and provide me flexibility (I could keep this job and move across the country to wherever I wanted eventually; or leave for another consulting firm and get more $$ there). Plus, staying on means that my job history over the past 9 years doesn’t read: 3 years, 10 monthsx2 (grad school), 2 years, 8 months, 1.5 years…

    What would you do, friends? I’m truly torn here and am having a hard time deciding.

    1. Arctic*

      I think you need to decide based on your future career goals and what would be best for you. Not necessarily in the present but for the future. I wouldn’t worry about the burned bridge. They wanted you but didn’t hire you twice before. This isn’t too different. I’d let them know before the background check if you don’t want to take it but that’s an acceptable thing to do.

      I will say you sound more passionate about the promotion in your current position.

      1. DeeR*

        Thank you for taking the time to comment! Yes, I’ll definitely have to take the weekend to really consider the pros and cons for both jobs, not just for what it means now, but for my future career goals, and leave out any worry about burning bridges in favor of considering what’s best for me.

    2. The Man, Becky Lynch*

      Choose what you want and what feels right.

      Since it’s a federal agency, would you really be burning the bridge? It sounds like you’re a perfect fit as is, so you’ll be just as perfect down the road if you ever did want to try that route again. It’s not the same as a private business that may see this as a big deal, never talk to us again, situation. At least that’s what I would gather, since I’m told that federal agencies hire on strict guidelines more than their feels like the private sector! [A Fed would know better about that though of course].

      I would stay but that’s because I see this as a great opportunity that would benefit you more than anything. Unless of course you want to find somewhere that you’ll just stay and retire at, that’s what I think about federal jobs though, they seem to be a ‘forever’ decision in my mind. Again, I’m a private sector kind of person, so take that opinion for what you will! I’m all for that career growth and money money money money money fill your pockets, gurl.

      1. DeeR*

        Thank you, truly. My emotions are all out of whack because I just found out about the promotion today. Honestly, if I knew I was going to get promoted, I’d probably never have applied for the fed job – I really was pretty content at my current job.

        I think it would be a burned bridge at the federal agency because they’ve halted their hiring process (since I signed the offer letter, but just haven’t followed through on the background investigation). It’s also, true to your belief, one of those stay-and-retire jobs although one that would have been personally very fulfilling.

        I will take this weekend to truly digest everything and then make my decision. Thank you for taking the time to provide your insight – I appreciate it!

        1. The Man, Becky Lynch*

          Taking the weekend to think about it is a great idea. You may even want to do an old fashioned “pros/cons” list for each one as well.

          I meant to ask but I’m glad you responded to my other “inkling”, which was “why did you apply for a new job? what’s up with your current job?” Since you’re happy there you weren’t looking to leave for anything more than the traditional “opportunity” or “benefits/retirement package upgrade”, then you absolutely have a great reason for taking the promotion and staying on.

          If you were tired of your current company and wanted out, then the fresh “start” with a promotion would be a band-aid. But in this case, with a continued career growth and all that comes with that, it sounds like you’re in a really good spot. This is the kind of “problem” a lot of people would love ;) But it’s HARD, I understand completely.

          When I left my last job, I had multiple offers and had to “choose”. It was exhausting and emotional. Almost two years later and I’m happy with my decision =) So I hope that your decision makes you happy as well!

          1. DeeR*

            Thanks! It’s definitely a good problem to have, although one that I currently wish I didn’t have to deal with =)

            My current job – I’m not necessarily happy, but I was content and would probably not have been looking for another job for 1-2 years. Long term, the amount of effort and stress that consulting brings is not something I can, or want to, sustain. But it is definitely flattering to see that I was recognized for my contribution. The promotion is a great fresh start, but definitely also a band-aid, because the underlying issues aren’t gone and are going to get worse now that I’m in a more senior role.

            Either way, I will probably be back the next open thread, to ask advice for the best wordsmithing for either letting my current job know I appreciate the recognition and promotion but am still leaving, or letting the new job know that I appreciated the offer, but was offered a promotion and raise and upon further consideration decided to stay at my current position.

    3. animaniactoo*

      Take out the salary/benefits.

      Which job and career trajectory are you more excited about? Which one do you think you’ll be better at?

    4. Me*

      Why did you decide it was time to leave in the first place? That’s whats missing here. I see a lot about why your current job is great, especially now. All I see about new job is you liked the people you interviewed with and the benefits are ok.

      1. DeeR*

        And the answer there is that the senior employee at the agency reached out to me and the job had been my dream job back in 2017, so it was a little bit out of nostalgia for the 2017!me. I hadn’t planned on leaving current job for another year or two (consulting life is stressful and I can’t sustain this level of effort long-term, the group I’m aligned with in my current firm is not going to keep winning work with the resources and skillsets we have unless something drastic changes and I’m not sure I have enough seniority/capital to make or push those changes through).

  107. Candid Candidate*

    My husband and I were talking last night about his job working as a team lead for his company’s mail department. He oversees a team that manages an enormous volume of incoming and outgoing correspondence that needs to comply with HIPPA regulations. Despite being a very creative person in a very not creative field, he has done an excellent job creating organization and process where there was none, and he’s now one of the employees who has been there the longest. As a team lead, he assigns work to other team members, ensures that they’re keeping up with productivity expectations, and that they comply with HIPPA. But he doesn’t technically have any direct reports, he doesn’t manage payroll or benefits info, conduct employee annual reviews, or enforce HR’s behavior standards, etc.

    The problem is that he’s very conflict-averse and has confidence issues, and hasn’t wanted to manage people. But if he gets the promotion that his supervisors have been mentioning here and there, he will need to. His company isn’t great at mentoring their people with stuff like this and I’m wondering if you can point us to any resources like YouTube videos, podcasts, or thought-leaders that might help him. Obviously, I told him to read AAM ;) , but any additional resources that have helped managers build confidence and knowledge would be great.

    1. Just stoppin' by to chat*

      Allison published a book with advise for managers in non-profits, but has stated that it’s good advice for managers in general. Maybe your husband can read that?

  108. Manon*

    Hi everyone! Wondering if anyone could recommend blogs, advice columns, news sites, etc. related to arts administration (particularly interested in music and performing arts) and/or nonprofits in general. I currently read Adaptistration.com and NonprofitAF.com but I’d love to know more. Thanks!

  109. meeting gone wrong*

    A started a new job a couple of weeks ago. I was asked to make a presentation on one of our services to a room full of executives. I prepared in advance, but minutes before I was supposed to present, my grand boss told me to significantly change my presentation. Long story short, it didn’t go well in my view. I felt unprepared and my delivery was not great. Afterward, my boss told me I did a good job, but I know deep down that I there was a lot of room for improvement. During my presentation, some of the people in the room seemed to follow what I was saying well and others looked confused.

    Question- how do I bounce back from this? I’m afraid that my bad first impression will stay with me for a long time. I don’t have enough regular contact with them to smooth things over…or for them to know that what they saw during the meeting isn’t 100% representative of what I have to offer. I don’t know… can anyone offer any advice?

    1. EMP*

      I would frame it as a desire to improve your presentation skills more generally and not in direct response to what Grandboss did. For example you can ask your boss if they heard any feedback from other people in the room, or just state that while you appreciate that your most recent presentation went well you want to improve. Ask if there are other opportunities to present (not necessarily to the same people) to continue to hone your presentation skills.

  110. Mom of a 5-6 kids*

    My daughter is 16 and working in her first job. She is a day-camp counselor at a local community-based center. Her immediate leader (Ursula) is difficult to say the least. My daughter has spoken to the camp director twice about Ursula’s behavior. Ursula is quite mean to the kids (ages 5-10) for example, it is her practice to have all of the campers shout “Thanks, Name-of-kid” anytime a child does something to make them late, or messes up a task. She regularly uses inappropriate language and discusses “getting drunk and hooking up” on her time off. She uses a vape/juul in front of the campers as well. This camp provides care for special needs children and Ursula has used the “R” word in front of them. I could go on.

    My question is, should I make a call? I am a member of this center. My own children have attended this camp in the past. If this would have happened to one of my kids, I would have withdrawn them from the camp. If she were my employee, I would fire her immediately; or at the very least want to know this was going on.

    To reiterate, my daughter has said something to her big boss, but nothing has changed. She is hesitant to keep complaining because Ursula is her immediate supervisor and could retaliate. Ursula is also fairly young. I think she is under 20.

    1. Retail not Retail*

      I think you have grounds as a member of the center but I’m sure there’s some diplomatic phrasing you can use that doesn’t make you sound like a helicopter parent (which you aren’t!).

      Better for them if you do it with the authority of an adult than get angry calls from parents.

      If I saw this at the Y (as a member) or my job I would be thinking of the children involved over any employee and I bet that’s a solid phrasing.

    2. Colette*

      I wouldn’t – you have no standing to make the complaint. The big boss knows about it, and you are not the parent of one of the campers. (If you had a child in the camp, you absolutely could complain.)

    3. Arctic*

      That’s tough. Ursula needs to be fired yesterday. The vaping/juul and taking about off hours partying is bad but the kid shaming and R word is just unacceptable. And you are a member. In any other situation I’d say you absolutely HAVE to say something.

      But my knee-jerk here was to say “NO” because you don’t ever want to be perceived as interfering in your daughter’s employment. And that could reflect poorly on her, as well. Especially since your daughter has raised it and her boss and he or she clearly is indifferent. The boss will know it came from his or her employee’s mother.

      IDK. This isn’t very helpful. Do you have any friends who are also members of the center who could raise it?

      1. Mom of 5-6 kids*

        This is my dilemma. I don’t want to interfere in her employment. I think these work situations are so important for young people to learn from. I have told my daughter that she absolutely has the responsibility to stick up for any kids who are being treated poorly. I have given her some tips for saying, “This is wrong. You are bullying the kids.”

        I am hopeful that this will get better.

        1. Federal Middle Manager*

          Suggest she write an email if in-person was not successful. Then there will be something in writing that they may feel more compelled to act on. You can assist with the email drafting but it needs to come from your daughter.

    4. Shell*

      Ad someone who has worked in a camp situation, I would say the needs of the kids have to come first. Ursula’s public shaming and insults are not acceptable, and I would absolutely call.

      1. Mom of 5-6 kids*

        I am tempted to call and leave a voice mail for the camp director and identify myself as a parent without saying whom I am a parent of (seriously bad grammar, I know) and let him know some examples of Ursula’s behavior.

      2. Mellow*

        I concur with Shell, and disagree with those who say you shouldn’t call/interfere. Your daughter is a minor, which comes before her being an employee.

        If she were 18 or older, I’d say don’t call. But 16 -under-aged – and exposed to the same awful things as under-aged campers? Oh hell no.

        Call.

    5. animaniactoo*

      I would reach out to the parents you know who have children who are currently attending the camp and say “Listen, I’ve heard that there are some of these issues going on. I know your son/daughter is attending this year and I wanted to give you a head’s up so that you can take a look at this if you’re concerned.”

      Where this comes from: My parents found out that my sister was being mistreated by a teacher because a friend of theirs with children in the same school came in and saw it happening. He didn’t lodge a complaint with the school. He talked to my parents. They took action on behalf of their child – they were the best positioned to do so. But they couldn’t do it until they knew about it and his telling them was the first they knew about it.

      1. Mom of 5-6 kids*

        This would be ideal, unfortunately I don’t know any of the parents since my own children are so much older. We live in a fairly large city and since the program accepts special needs children, the participants are from all over the area. If I recognize any kids, or my daughter does, this is an excellent idea!

        On another note, I had a similar situation with my youngest child. I found out about an issue at school from a friend. It definitely takes a village.

        1. animaniactoo*

          Hmmm. What about parents of kids who were there in more recent years? You might be able to network/Kevin Bacon the knowledge to parents of current participants.

      2. Doing too many things*

        Can your daughter say anything to the parents of some of the kids (ideally, parents of the kids directly impacted) at pickup? “Hey, I know Jimmy witnessed some name calling today that involved the R word. I wanted to let you know in case you want to help him process it at home.” or “Bertha was feeling really bummed out today because her group missed outdoor time and she felt like it was her fault.”

        That would give the parents a place to start asking their kids for more details about their days and their care.

        1. sunshyne84*

          That’s my suggestion. Or if OP picks up daughter from work they could make conversation with some parents about daughter’s concerns.

    6. Carquals 153 Niner 2*

      No. Please don’t approach your daughter’s boss about this. This a learning and growth opportunity for your daughter as she will continue to work with these types of people throughout her career. She needs to learn how to manage this herself. Guide her in how to deal with this situation from documenting Ursula’s behavior and reporting it to her boss and how to maintain communications w/ camp leadership. Unfortunately, they’ve placed the wrong person in charge.

      If you’ve observed Ursula’s behavior and can substantiate it, then you can as a customer/member perspective.

      1. Federal Middle Manager*

        +1

        Helicopter parents will always find a justification for interfering (I’m a member, I know so-and-s0 socially, I have more experience, maybe they’ll listen to an adult…). Don’t do it.

        1. Mellow*

          What????

          This isn’t helicopter parenting. These are minors – including the OP’s daughter – being openly exposed to adult themes like vaping and “hooking up,” among other legitimately questionable things, and by an adult who is supposed to be *looking out for* those kids.

          Helicopter parenting would be the OP calling about why her 16-year-old didn’t get the upper bunk, or that she needs a private room because…, or that she expects her daughter to get a good recc. for her college applications.

          This ain’t those. At all.

      2. Mellow*

        She is 16 years old.

        She’s not an adult.

        And these are serious infractions.

        For another adult to handle on her behalf.

        Why are those facts so difficult to grasp? We aren’t talking harmless pranks, or petty theft, or “Jenny farts in my bed.”

        Come on already. A minor should “manage this herself”?

        Unbelievable.

    7. New Job So Much Better*

      No, I wouldn’t do that. Maybe you could stop by during camp hours and let Ursula notice you observing her?

    8. Zephy*

      Do you know what your daughter said to the big boss about Ursula’s behavior, specifically? Did she explain exactly what Ursula was doing? Being both a teenager and a person that was raised with feminine social programming, it’s very possible that she was too vague for the boss to realize that Ursula’s behavior is actually a problem that needs to be addressed.

      1. The New Wanderer*

        I have to hope that if your daughter explicitly said “Ursula is using her vape, saying the R word, and publicly shaming the kids when they make a mistake” that the director would take some action. So I agree, if she hasn’t been super clear on the problem, then coaching your daughter on how best to raise these concerns is a good strategy (all of them are very valid, as a parent of kids who attend camps I would want Ursula removed ASAP).

        I also like the suggestion to encourage your daughter to approach the parents and tell them “Your child heard/saw Ursula [do these fireable offenses] today, they may have questions” and kind of let that unfold naturally. Some parents might not be fazed, others will want details and to take it to the director.

        If you observe these things directly, then you’d have standing to make a complaint directly. Otherwise, there already is an avenue to escalate this and it’s in your daughter’s capacity as an employee.

    9. Arts Akimbo*

      OMG… I would pitch a flying FIT if I heard a counselor calling kids the r word. I would lose it in a letter to whatever governing body employed her.

      1. Arts Akimbo*

        As the parent of a special needs child, let me just say that ANYONE and EVERYONE should report if they see a person in authority abusing a special needs kid or calling them the r word! These kids, more than most, cannot effectively self-advocate! My own kid was being abused in a program and it took him MONTHS to be able to tell us! Sorry for all the shouting, but sometimes you have to shout to protect those many of whom have no voice.

        1. Mellow*

          As I understand it, the OP’s teen daughter who is a counselor there did report the behavior of the adult counselor but the behavior still continues, so the OP is wondering if she should call to reiterate what her daughter told her.

          And she should, given that her daughter is a minor. Such egregious behavior by adults is for adults to handle, not minors. They’re not equipped for that. Age has its natural limits, and this presents a perfect example of that fact.

  111. pony tailed wonder*

    I submitted this a while back for Alison but it didn’t get answered and I think it is safe to ask here now that enough time has gone and there is no urgent need for it to be answered.

    I work at a state university for my full time job for around 30 years and have also worked a part time job in a different department here as well. The part time job is similar to being an usher at special events. I applied for the part time job about 20 years ago where the application was just answering a university e-mail saying that I was interested and then a follow up phone call telling me when and where to show up and what would be involved instead of an interview or resume submission. I have worked that part time job ever since.

    About 6 weeks ago, I got an e-mail from the part time job saying that I had to reapply for it and submit a resume. I followed up via e-mail and my boss said it was just a formality and I was going to be hired back regardless. I already submitted a resume but I question whether or not I did it correctly.

    How would you write out a resume for a job that you already work? I didn’t put down my education because the job doesn’t call for it, a high school student could do it just as well as I can. I didn’t list too much from my full time job because it has little bearing on the part time job. I just listed out how long I had been at that part time job and all the duties that I had done over the years with them and my ‘progression’ (I have been assigned other duties as needed for so long that I don’t believe that there isn’t anything that I haven’t done for them that is possible for this job).

    1. AnonToday*

      Since it’s already done, I wouldn’t worry about it, but the best advice I ever got about this was to write about the job as though you were explaining it to a complete stranger. What do you do? What have you achieved? What have your been responsible for? What have your outcomes been? That sort of thing.

  112. KCKC*

    So I’ve been digging around for good intern gifts for a while now- I come across a ton of suggestions for things interns give to their bosses, but how about gifts from the boss to the interns? I’ve been thinking a classy padfolio and nice interview pen, but I’m also not really in touch with interns these days. Is that a good/bad gift? Better gift ideas? Nice travel mug/water bottle? I’d like to stick under $30-40 and not be super generic (i.e. Amazon gift card). Thanks guys!

    1. Retail not Retail*

      Branded stuff and the padfolio or some other office gear that is career-path appropriate.

      But branded stuff? Even if your intern is a too cool grad student, they’ll be all over that. I use my backpack at my job now!

      1. KCKC*

        What is branded stuff? I’ve heard this a few times and don’t really understand it. Like stuff with the company’s logo on it? (Sorry, I suppose I’m a bit out-of-touch in general!)

        1. Retail not Retail*

          Stuff with the logo exactly! I have a keychain, one of those tiny backpacks, a water bottle. They weren’t gifts, my internship wouldn’t have allowed for that – they were safety day swag. My current job’s “interns” have stuff like that as well.

          Don’t forget lunch on the last week if that’s allowed.

          1. KCKC*

            Gotcha, thank you! Good to know people actually like/use that stuff. I never know for sure if it’s useful or not.

    2. workerbee2*

      Granted, I’m well past “intern” age now, but I attended a Scholarship Dinner in college where the university gave everyone a really nice padfolio with the university logo, and I LOVED it. I still have it over a decade later and use it for all of my interviews. I feel like it helps me project a polished image and almost feels like a good luck talisman at this point. I think that’s a perfect gift for an intern – something to help them professionally that they might never think to buy.

      1. KCKC*

        I’m really glad padfolios haven’t been ruled out yet. I really wasn’t sure if it was something that college kids still should be using, or if I just feel like they should. I like that point, though- something they wouldn’t think to buy on their own. I know I was scrambling to find a padfolio before my first professional interview because I never really realized I needed one. I hadn’t thought about that, but it makes me feel better. Like maybe they won’t be as excited about it when they get it, but they will be down the road! We have a super good intern in my dept right now so I want him to feel appreciated.

        1. Manon*

          Current college student – I would love something like that! A padfolio or nice pen (with refillable ink) is something that’s useful for work life but is kind of expensive to justify buying right now and just not something I would usually think to buy.

          1. KCKC*

            Awesome, thanks! That’s the kind of pen I was looking at- classic, metal body, high quality, refillable. I didn’t get nice pens until my current job and they’ve been life-changing lol

            1. Doing too many things*

              I have two metal-body refillable Parker pens that I was given as gifts, and they are worth their weight in gold. (Well, the lighter one is even more valuable to my small hands…) I love them!

        2. No Tribble At All*

          +1 on the padfolio, something professional they can bring to interviews. It’s the sort of thing you don’t remember you need until you’re halfway to the interview lol.

  113. Retail not Retail*

    I’m taking one of those controversial mental health days at my supervisor’s suggestion. My pay may be slightly above minimum wage but by god we get paid sick days.

    Wednesday I had a piercing headache for over an hour and yesterday I could not wake up fully, my arms (OJI workers comp is dragging) were yelling more than normal, and the capper is I cried for like 30 minutes while working. I mean picture someone raking and bagging debris with tears streaming down their face.

    Summer is truly here and you do what you can – take AC breaks (a shade break is not sufficient), hydrate, wear hats. Combine that with underlying issues and I slammed into a wall. I could have gone today and just pushed through but that’s exhausting too. I go back tomorrow then my weekend will be here.

    Am i abusing sick time?

    1. Countess Boochie Flagrante*

      Absolutely not!! When you hit a wall, you hit a wall, and it’s far better to take a day and get yourself pulled together rather than struggle and flail through a day of work that’s only going to make it all worse.

      I hope today gives you a good rest.

    2. Matilda Jefferies*

      Good grief, no. Absolutely not! You’re not capable of doing your job safely at this point, if you’re slamming into walls because you’re so tired. Do not try to push through something like this! Stay home and rest and hydrate, and go back to work when you’re feeling better.

        1. Matilda Jefferies*

          Ha, well that’s good news at least! So ignore what I said about physical safety. But the rest of it is still valid, and your mental health is just as important as your physical health.

          I’m not your mom, but I’m *a* mom, and I’m telling you in my sternest Mom Voice to stay home and get some rest. Take tomorrow too if you can – it sounds to me like you have more than one day’s exhaustion built up.

    3. A Simple Narwhal*

      Absolutely not! I mean this kindly, but you do not sound well to me. And especially since your supervisor suggested you take a sick day, you should take it 100% guilt-free.

      If you have the ability/means to, I’d really try to take care of yourself. It sounds like you have an injury that you’re in the process of getting workers comp for, so there may be limited things you can do to help your arms, but if there are other parts of you that could use some tlc, try and focus on them. Take it easy this weekend, do what you need to do to try and relax and improve everything else.

      And absolutely do not feel bad about using your sicktime, it sounds like you could stand to use it more often.

    4. The Man, Becky Lynch*

      No, you’re not at all! There is also nothing controversial about mental health days, except for people who believe you should go to work sick, unless you’re moments away from dying from bleeding out and even then ‘rub some dirt on it!’. It’s literally in the legislature that states have for mandatory sick-time, mental health counts!!!

      Also heat exhaustion or stroke is real and incredibly dangerous, it also sneaks up on a lot of people. We had someone suffer from it a few years ago and it was scary, the person almost fell off the forklift they were driving due to it, thankfully they had the little bit of strength left to turn the thing off but couldn’t get off the thing without assistance to get them inside.

    5. Curlz*

      I agree with everyone else about taking the sick days.

      Whenever I hit the wall like that, it usually means I need sugar, salt, or both. Remember, you don’t just sweat water, you sweat salt, and you’re burning a lot of calories doing physical work like raking. Instead of just hydrating (I assume you’re having water), try to eat some candy or salty snacks and drink some juice or gatorade. You might even be reaching the beginning stages of heat exhaustion. See if you can wear something to help keep you cool like a wet handkerchief on your head/neck or a cooling gel vest.

  114. Em from CT*

    I’m about to start a new job (yay!). This is my first job as an official manager/supervisor—I’ve managed staff before, but this is the first time I’m playing the lead role on a team.

    This is the first time in a while I’ve done this. Anyone have any advice about good things to do in my first couple of weeks? I’m planning on taking good notes in all my conversations, trying to listen more than I talk, and setting up a meeting with my boss after a few weeks or a month where I say “now that I’ve been here a month, how do you think things are going?”

    What else would you do?

    1. Mellow*

      Sounds like you’re preparing yourself quite nicely.

      I know this is cynical, and you might already have this on your list, but keep an eye out for any employees who try to purr their way in to your good graces. In nearly every job I’ve ever had, there is always that one person who tries to curry favor with the new boss, and it really sucks when new boss is oblivious to Cheshire cat types.

      Regardless, good luck, and congratulations!

  115. T3k*

    Just a minor update of sorts but I got a minor raise at work, which was nice considering I haven’t been at this job for quite a year yet. I’ve also agreed to take on part time work with a different company (remote work) that, while it doesn’t pay very well, it’s along the lines of things I do anyways in my spare time, so we’ll see how this goes.

  116. Arctic*

    So, a co-worker/friend of mine from HR (does hiring not any employee management stuff so not a conflict) got a manger position in another department of our very large organization.

    They are understaffed in this area when it comes to actual staff (lots of managers few staff members). So, HR freaked out and offered to create a supervisor position for her. She said no. They asked for her to wait 9 months to leave, during which time she wouldn’t get her raise and no way could the other department hold the job open that long. She said no. They asked her to wait 6 months. Then 3. No. Then they told her new department that she wanted to stay with them for 6 months and they’d need to do that. New department asked her if that was true. She said no.

    Then they told her the new position was above her skill set and she would be in way over her head. Basically, negging her.

    Now they are refusing to sign-off on the transfer (it’s an internal move so HR has to sign-off on it). So, she’s basically trapped. And she can’t just walk out because it’s an internal transfer.

    I’ve never seen anything like this in my life.

      1. Arctic*

        Yes, and the other department head is pursuing that. People tend to tip toe around HR though. It really makes me question this whole organization.

    2. Colette*

      Sometimes it’s useful to point out that if you take an external job, you can be gone in 2 weeks.

    3. The Man, Becky Lynch*

      What? The organization needs to rethink how much power they’ve given HR to be able to pull this kind of BS. I’m glad that the other department head is fighting for her but honestly, with an HR setup like that, she’s not even safe once she’s out of their grips.

  117. Retail not Retail*

    Raise/Performance Review question –

    I worked a union job before where pay bumps were every 6 months of your employment.

    Now I am in the wilds of non union employment and we’re eligible for raises at 6 months but raises and reviews are done once a year. I’m at 5 months so I won’t see anything until next July. Is this typical?

    (Also if the raises are like the ones at old job, I mean I can’t quit but if it’s 25 cents or some nonsense I will scream. Yes I’m job hunting)

    1. workerbee2*

      So, for example, raises are given 7/1, and anyone who was hired on/before 1/1 is eligible, but anyone hired after 1/1 isn’t? Yeah, that’s normal.

      When I started at my company several years ago, they combined my 6 month review with my annual review so I was able to get a raise. If I hadn’t been there for 6 months at annual review time, I would not have had a review nor a raise.

        1. The Man, Becky Lynch*

          If you’re only making $9 an hour, you’re going to get a pretty low raise anyways. Even 25c is generous to them because that’s almost 3% raise. Most places give between 3-5% for your first annual raise.

          Also places that pay that little are awful and I hate them [written from the land of $15 minimum wage, my rage my raaaaaaage].

    2. The Man, Becky Lynch*

      That’s pretty typical for non-union, non-contract jobs. Unless you are promoted or your duties change, then a raise comes regardless of when in the year that is.

      How we work is after the probationary period, we give a small nominal raise [about $1000 annual increase, that’s 50c hourly] and then each year, we have annual raises that everyone gets as long as they’ve been here past their probationary periods.

      Honestly, most places don’t even do annual raises, you’re lucky to get a COLA I’ve heard. It drastically depends on the company itself and how it’s structured. Some places just adjust salaries every few years, it’s the worst. It’s something you don’t really talk about in the hiring process either because of all the malarkey about how it’s frowned upon to talk about money other than the starting wage.

    3. Schnoodle HR*

      Pretty typical in a good way. That’s about the best you’re going to get.

      Some places don’t do annual raises or COLA. So I’d take the yearly happily.

  118. Echo*

    Anyone have advice on getting your managees to see you as an adult? I have two managees, both in their early-mid 20s; I’m in my late 20s. When they started, I was the most senior individual contributor on my team, and was in more of a project manager/mentor role with them for the first 6 months we worked together before I was promoted to manager and now manage them both. I kind of get the sense they still kind of think of me as a peer in some respects. They’ll do things like complimenting me on my work (“wow, you did a great job!” rather than “wow, this is really cool”), asking me if I’m nervous before a presentation, or telling me not to stay too late after work.

    I think they have an easier time seeing my boss/our team lead as a “real adult” because he’s a) male, b) in his early 30s, and c) married and owns a house. To compound this, I’m pretty sure I’m on the autism spectrum though I haven’t gone through the difficult and expensive process of a formal diagnosis, and I know that autistic people can be perceived as (ugh) “childlike”. So I know the world’s prejudices are working against me, but any thoughts on things I can do to have a little more gravitas and display confidence?

    1. Close Bracket*

      I know that autistic people can be perceived as (ugh) “childlike”.

      Is that right? Tell me more about this. I haven’t heard this before, and as a woman on the spectrum, I would like to know more about possible biases I might face. Do people have to know an individual is on the spectrum to perceive them as childlike? Or are there autistic traits that are perceived as childlike regardless of the neurotype of the person exhibiting them?

      1. Echo*

        Autistic traits that can be perceived as childlike, is my understanding. For example if I don’t look people in the eye, or I fidget/stim, it comes across to people as immature. I think there are also some tone of voice modulation things I struggle with that may make my voice and speech patterns sound younger than I am too.

        1. Close Bracket*

          Oh, I see. I have heard that those traits read as nervousness or discomfort. This is the first I’ve head that they read as childlike. Now I have something additional to consider!

          Those are all traits that I actively worked to reduce. You shouldn’t have to reduce them, but the fact is, the closer you pass for neurotypical, the better your life will be. I just got complaints about how I emote (I don’t) as part of my review, and that’s actually been a regular part of my professional life. So I definitely feel you on the world’s prejudices working against you. It sucks being in that sort of borderline area where you are autistic enough to be read as weird, but not autistic enough (or male enough, ahem) to be given the benefit of doubt for autism.

          I also work late hours because I choose to, and I am fed up with people telling me to go home. I haven’t implemented this yet, but my plan for the future is to cheerily reply, “Thanks, I’m happy with the hours I work.”

          1. Echo*

            I hope my comment hasn’t given you anything extra to be anxious about! I think the perception of immaturity and childishness is basically the same thing as the perception of nervousness and discomfort, because people see a calm, unflappable demeanor as more “grown up”.

            And yes. I have developed so many coping skills to fit into neurotypical society, but I know there’s always further to go. Honestly I’m totally okay with reading as weird, but I want to read as “eccentric yet smart, respectable grownup who is a trusted authority”. It seems like the only model we as a society have for that role is a male one.

            1. Close Bracket*

              I hope my comment hasn’t given you anything extra to be anxious about!

              lol, I’m 48. I look younger than I am, but ain’t nobody thinking of me as childlike.

              I think the perception of immaturity and childishness is basically the same thing as the perception of nervousness and discomfort, because people see a calm, unflappable demeanor as more “grown up”.

              I see where you are going with that. To my mind, being perceived as a nervous adult is very different from being perceived as not fully grown and would require different countering strategies.

              Have you considered acting classes or an acting coach? I have heard that some autistic people find acting very comfortable since it is what we basically do all the time anyway. Perhaps acting skills would allow you to literally act the part of someone with gravitas. Pick some film characters whose traits you would like to emulate, and learn acting skills to perform on the job. Acting classes might include voice coaching or maybe you would have to get that separately. That would help you with your speech patterns.

    2. Emi.*

      I agree it sounds like they’re seeing you as a peer but from what you’ve written I’m not really sure why you feel like they’re not treating you like a real adult. These all sound like regular peers-looking-out-for-each-other things to me. How long have you been managing them? If it’s a recent promotion I suspect a lot of this will go away on its own.

      1. Echo*

        I’ve been a manager for nine months though I haven’t been their direct manager for that entire time. So I’ve been not-a-peer longer than I’ve been a peer.

    3. KoiFeeder*

      Official Autistic™ here to say that if you don’t want to, you don’t have to get your autism license/formal diagnosis. It’s helpful for accommodations, but if you’re not looking for those, it can be a lot more trouble than it’s worth.

      If you can, social skills therapy might be an option even though you’re over 18? It helped me a lot.

        1. KoiFeeder*

          I like saying that I’m Licensed as a Professional Autistic. It makes me smile. (and someday I will have a job, and then I’ll be a Professional Professional Autistic)

    4. LGC*

      Okay, so.

      To start, I think you’re discounting the fact that you were promoted from within! From my experience, that has a lot of awkward dynamics, even if you try to project all the professionalism in your body. (I did not, in my case.) Basically, a huge part of the reason your direct reports treat you as a peer is because they first knew you as a peer.

      For actual advice? I’ve had less trouble being taken seriously after being transferred to another team (in fact, I have the opposite problem now, to a degree). I also think that…to a certain extent, you do have to roll with it. But if you do have issues where you don’t get the respect due, you need to call it out.

      So, for example, you could correct your reports in one on ones. I don’t know if I’d hammer on it – to me, the example you used read as minor, but I’m missing a lot of information – but a gentle, “Hey, I’d like to see X” might be useful information for them.

      And good luck and congratulations! You’ll do great.

  119. Cosmos Blossom*

    Hi all!

    I posted last week about feeling conflicted about my job search and being miserable/burnt out at work. Thank you for the thoughtful responses!

    My question this week has to do with dealing with the burnout. I’ve noticed in recent weeks that my short-term memory is shot. My co-workers would tell me something small they need done, I’d say yes and then forget about it a few minutes later, which means the task gets pushed waaaaay back until they follow up with me much later and I would have to sheepishly admit that it slipped my mind. These aren’t earth-shattering tasks – just simple “hey, can you hand this to Mike when you pass his desk on the way to yours? ” or “can you let Nancy know I called about the Byers account?” – but it’s terribly frustrating because I used to always remember the little things and I imagine I’m not projecting as a reliable persona to my co-workers and supervisors…

    Couple that with the fact that, due to feeling sluggish some days, I’ve had to catch up on work a bit so am dealing with a lot of major work projects at once. And due to recent staffing issues, I can’t easily pass them off to others on my team. We’re hiring for one junior staff position, but it’s going to take time to keep them up to speed.

    In the meantime, what techniques can I use to (a) not be such a memory klutz and (b) deal with a back-log of work tasks? I really just want to have a semblance of normal again and not dig myself into a deeper burnout hole. Plus, feeling better about my performance at work will fuel my on-going job search for the right position in my niche field.

    (It might be worth noting that I have met with a wonderful therapist before to deal with the burnout, but I’m not able to pay out of pocket for the consultations right now, and it’s not covered by our healthcare provider so I’m kind of on my own for now.)

    1. EMP*

      Carry a notepad around with you and every time someone asks for something, whip out your notepad *right there* and write it down. Even if it’s just “drop this off with Nancy”, because if you do forget, you’ll remember the next time you open your notebook, so things won’t slide too far. When it’s done, cross it out.

    2. Hope*

      Keep some paper/pen or use your phone to make a note when something like that gets requested? Keep a running to-do list?

    3. TPS Cover Report*

      Third here for the flip-out notepad. Like you see in old cop shows the detective flip out. I used to live with one… (if I get to start a new job I think I’ll pick up the habit again as my memory is a sieve)

  120. workerbee2*

    How long would you expect it to take to hear back after submitting sample work as part of an interview process? I received an e-mail last week notifying me that my resume was selected to enter the first stage of their interview process. They sent me a data file and a doc explaining what was in the dataset, with instructions to create a 2-3 page analytic report based on the data but not spend more than 2-3 hours working on it. It was due by COB on Tuesday. I’m wondering how long it might take to hear back, even though I know this question is akin to “how long is a string?” I thought I might hear by the end of the week, but that’s looking unlikely at this point. Since I participate in the hiring process in my current position, I know that these things can take a while – needing time to review the applications, they can’t get everyone into a meeting until there’s a full moon when Mercury is in retrograde, Important Player is on vacation, etc.

    I have good analytic skills and a ton of specialized experience in the exact field the position is in (think the position manages a team of blue teapot analysts and I have a master’s in teapot analysis and several years of experience studying and analyzing blue teapots) so I would be quite surprised to not be selected to interview (and if it happens that they have a number of more qualified applicants, good for them!). I would really hope to hear back either way since they asked me to do a good bit of work, but I know that’s nowhere near a given.

    1. TPS Cover Sheet*

      The cynical TPS has encountered this doing translations. Once you submit the ”sample” you hear nothing back. Enough samples sent, project done without having to pay for a translator…

  121. Candy*

    My husband had an interview on Saturday at a coffee shop with the Superintendent of a building company. At the end of the interview, the Super said, “great meeting with you. Call Karen in HR on Tuesday to follow up.” He didn’t offer him the job, just said to call Karen in HR.

    On Tuesday, my husband calls her, no answer, he leaves a message.

    Wednesday, he tries again. Still no answer.

    Thursday he calls the Super to check in (“it was nice meeting with you on Saturday, I called HR, hope to hear from you soon” blah blah blah). The Super says, “sorry too busy to talk right now. Call Karen in HR.”

    So now it’s Friday. Should he try calling Karen again? Why won’t the Super say if he has the job or not? Why won’t Karen return his call? What the f is going on here?

    1. irene adler*

      I would try calling once again next week. There is the off-chance that Karen is on vacation this week and Superintendent doesn’t realize this.

      After that, assuming no response from Karen, this is a brushoff.

      Most folks are not comfortable telling candidates that they will not be hired. You run into all sorts of responses: anger, crying, begging, asking why they didn’t get the job, threats, etc. No one wants to be a party to that.

      So they invented the brushoff. Super just has to tell all candidates to call Karen. Then Karen never gets back to them. After awhile, folks give up. It’s not a very kind thing to do to candidates.

      This also allows them to keep the other candidates ‘in limbo’ should their #1 candidate not accept the job offer.

      FYI: Make no mistake: Karen IS in contact with the person whom they wish to hire.

      1. sunshyne84*

        But how would she know which number to ignore? I wonder if Karen exists or if that is even her number.

        1. irene adler*

          She really doesn’t need to know anybody’s number. And can ignore all the incoming calls. In fact, she’s probably not waiting for the selected candidate to call her. She’s reaching out to the selected candidate at the direction of the Super.

          1. valentine*

            I’m sure someone would go through this whole charade, when he could just say, “Karen will email you,” perhaps with a “within the week” and “She’s strict about her system: no calls.”

        1. irene adler*

          Dang! I’m sorry. It’s so hard when the interviews go so well. Hopes are raised, only to find out someone else got the job.

  122. jDC*

    About to start working 100% remote basically part time. Just doing books for an old employer to bring in some extra income. We don’t need need it but it’ll help plus we just had to buy a new car, with something cheap for son coming up soon enough and before you know it for husband also.

    My question is, how annoying do you think it’ll be to just do Quickbooks on my Mac. Considering just buying a regular laptop since they are affordable plus a lot of what I do is key touch which I have all memorized on PC. It’ll be nice to do some easy low stakes work for a little cash but I don’t want to be banging my head against the wall using my Mac. I can partition the HD and run boot camp or parallels but I really am more concerned about my keyboard short cuts. I know i can relearn them on Mac but that will take a while since I’ve done all accounting on PCs my whole life. I do have a keyboard with 10 Key since I have always done some level of bookkeeping at home over the years.

    1. blink14*

      I would buy a new PC laptop if you can afford it. I highly subscribe to the separation of work and personal on all technology, and only use my personal laptop at home if I’m out unexpectedly. This way, shutting the new laptop means you are off work, and you aren’t tempted to go into the files if you’re on your Mac.

      And maybe this will turn into something else down the road as well – doing books for other clients. That could required a separate computer anyway, and you’d already be set up for that.

    2. Hope*

      I’d get a cheap PC if you can. I love my Mac, but I’ve found that trying to use my Mac for things I’m used to doing on a PC (esp. things that require shortcuts) is infuriating. Plus it’s better to just keep work stuff separate.

      1. Red Reader the Adulting Fairy*

        Yep. I’m a Mac girl all the way, but for Windows-required purposes, I have a Thinkpad T430 that I got off Amazon, certified refurbished, for about $225. It’s not going to be handling anything high-end, gaming or video creation or the like, but for basic office software, it’s a perfectly reliable little workhorse. (In fact, it’s a previous generation of my actual work computer, I think.)

    3. jDC*

      Thanks guys. All your responses were kind of my thoughts, also separating work and personal. I am going to do some research and find something reasonable but decent in the coming weeks.

  123. anonynora*

    I work in an office full of loud people, unfortunately including some of the bosses. I have a room to myself, but it’s unfortunately a straight shot to the kitchen, where people gather and klatsch, and the offices of some of the loudest people. They’ll stand and shout conversations across the room to each other. Lucky me, with my sensitive hearing and executive function problems, unable to concentrate or tune it out.

    Headphones don’t help. I mean, maybe nice expensive ones would, but that’s low on my priority of expenses. I’ve worn big shooting-range heating protection and even that didn’t block the noise out.

    There’s an easy and obvious solution, but even though I had my door closed all the time when I was in my former workspace here, and the ladies who used to work in this room had their door closed a lot on account of the noise, if I close my door now my boss comes in, opens it and gives me a nasty look.

    She gets on my case that I’m not as productive as I used to be (not behind, just not as far ahead). She yells at me ‘WHY ARE YOU SO STRESSED? I DON’T UNDERSTAND HOW YOU CAN BE STRESSED!’ And she won’t let me do one small thing that would help.

    So Monday I’m getting a note from my doctor and going to try to request reasonable accommodation under the ADA… to close my office door when things get loud and I can’t concentrate.

    I should not have to do this.

    1. Bunny Girl*

      Holy crap what a lunatic. No you shouldn’t have to get ADA accommodation to close your door when you sit next to the kitchen. I’m so sorry your going through this. I don’t even understand her mind set of glaring at your when your door is closed. Good luck!

      Do you think maybe it would work better if you had your door open during most of the day, but just closed it during lunch hours? Then if your boss comes in just say “Oh would you mind leaving that closed? It’s a little distracting.” Although she sounds like this wouldn’t matter anyway. Just wow.

      1. jDC*

        Right. A simple, it’s loud right now should be more than enough. I would go into the conference room for quiet often and never thought anything of it. I’ve always worked places where a closed door just means you need quiet. Not sure why that’s a problem.

        1. valentine*

          This wild woman knows she’s unnecessarily loud and is taking it personally. Perhaps the closed door is like a slap in the face. (Kinda hope so, because she’s rotten.) How dare anonynora not want to hear everything all the time!

          Can you switch offices with someone further from the hub(bub)? (Like the next town over?)

          You could ask that the company buy you the expensive headphones, but I can see that backfiring, with this woman both yelling louder at you and assuming the headphones block out everything but your breathing, and so insisting the case is closed. Also, headphones end up being painful, especially if you wear glasses and they press on the eyeglass-stem grooves in your head.

    2. WellRed*

      Can you get an ADA accommodation without having a disability, though? Or, am I misunderstanding something?

      Your boss is unbelievable!

      1. Arts Akimbo*

        She said executive function problems, probably executive function disorder if she’s getting a doctor’s note.

    3. tangerineRose*

      Have you told your boss directly that you’re stressed and less productive because of the noise and that shutting the door helps?

  124. Surly Office Manager*

    I have kind of a convoluted/awkward question about my boss, and I would love to get some advice for what (or if) I should say something.

    I’m a longtime lurker/first-time commenter, so I’m using this thread incorrectly, let me know. Sorry this is so long!

    I’m the head admin for an office of 35 people. It’s typical of my company to send flowers to employees during major life events, like new babies, recovery from serious illness or surgery, or funerals.

    My grandmother died in late February. I had to travel out of state and was gone for 5 days. As I was prepping to leave work, my boss asked me (twice) to send her the funeral details so my company could send flowers. I emailed her the details and she replied she’d take care of it.

    When I came back to work, my boss pulled me aside and said she was really sorry, but she couldn’t get flowers delivered in time for the funeral. She apologized profusely and asked if the company could make a donation to an organization in my grandmother’s name. I said that was fine, and sent her a link to a charity my grandmother would have liked. I didn’t hear back from her, and I was so busy catching up on work I forgot about it.

    Fast forward to now: I’m pretty sure the donation never happened. There is no record, anywhere, of a donation being made to the charity I requested. I’ve seen expenses for other employee flower deliveries and donations, though, so I don’t think the policy has changed.

    I know it’s a small thing, but I feel extremely hurt by this oversight. I’ve worked here for 5 years, and I’ve gotten feedback from my boss that I go above and beyond to help others. I think being the admin plays a role, too — I actually used to be in charge of flower duty before we hired a second HR staff member.

    My company also really pushes the “we’re a family” work culture (yeah, I know) so it’s been hard not to seethe with resentment whenever I have to listen to some spiel in a meeting about how we’re one big family and we care about our employees.

    I want to talk to my boss (because maybe she did make the donation, and I just don’t know about it?), but I don’t know how, since it’s been so long.

    Plus, this isn’t something my company is required to do — it’s just a nice gesture, and pointing out the oversight seems incredibly gauche and petty. However, not knowing is affecting the way I see my boss and my coworkers (because…aforementioned seething resentment), and I’m concerned it’s going to show up in my attitude and professionalism.

    Is there any way I can talk to her about this?

    1. anonymoushiker*

      I think this shouldn’t be a huge deal if you’re able to ask about it without ‘weight’ behind it. You might do it as an add on to a conversation you’re already having with her like “Oh, hey, by the way, I wanted to see if you’d ever made the donation to xx charity like we talked about?” (When I say weight, I mean the placing lots of feelings or expectations that this is how it should be, the undertone of shaming/guilting etc)

      1. Surly Office Manager*

        I get where you’re coming from, but I don’t really feel like I’m capable of bringing it up in a casual way. Plus, my boss and I don’t even really talk that much. I am leaning towards asking about it in an email like Jaid mentioned.

        1. anonymoushiker*

          That completely makes sense. It’s definitely an area *I* would also feel hurt by if it happened to me (I’m also an admin type). Best of luck!

    2. The Man, Becky Lynch*

      I’m pretty angry at your boss, why did she take on this duty if she wasn’t sure she could figure it out? You aren’t even in charge of doing the arrangements anymore, I thought it was going to be the usual “I have to do all the preparations for This Gesture and therefore nobody does it for me.” but alas, the secondary HR person was most likely told not to do it because Boss was going to handle it? WHY WHY? I will assume the best intention on your bosses side and say she wanted to do it personally because it’s you and you’re special having been there for so long and being important…but still, she dropped the ball so hard. Nothing is easier than scheduling a flower delivery FFS, it’s a “time” and “effort” thing in the end.

      This is the kind of thing that when you drop the ball, feelings are going to be hurt and you are completely normal for feeling hurt, regardless of it not being malicious. Nobody else gets forgotten, ffs.

      IDK why she didn’t have flowers sent to you directly instead of the funeral home in this case, why she’d change it up with a donation but whatever.

      I don’t know a way to actually speak to her about this because it’s so awkward.

      Also please note that just because a thing is done as a “gesture” and not part of your benefits package or something, doesn’t mean that they should ever just brush off someone who’s forgotten because that’s a huge morale issue. When you accept the responsibility of giving out cards or flowers or treats whatever to “acknowledge” a life event, you accept the responsibility of giving them out fairly and consistently. It’s the right thing to do. It’s like parenting, you don’t play favorites between children. You don’t play favorites with employees either in that sense.

      1. Surly Office Manager*

        Thank you, I’m glad to have some outside perspective, since I worry I’m being hypersensitive about this.

        I’m guessing she forgot to ask the HR person who handles flowers, and when I came back she tried to fix it and forgot again.

        I like Jaid’s idea of emailing her, because it just feels so awkward to bring it up in conversation. I just can’t imagine a conversation where bringing up a task from four months ago doesn’t come across as pointed.

    3. Jaid*

      Can you ask for the details of the donation so you can thank the company in an e-mail? Her reaction should clue you in.

      1. Surly Office Manager*

        Thank you, I think the least awkward way to bring it up would be email. Although, I do worry about damaging the relationship with my boss if she did forget about the donation. But still, it would be easy to just forward her reply saying she’d take care of the donation and ask if it got done.

        1. valentine*

          I do worry about damaging the relationship with my boss if she did forget about the donation.</i.
          It sounds like she's already damaged it, twice. She could've had apology flowers waiting for you instead of asking for donation info, and you'd both be happy. Tell her you were wondering if she was able to do it, because you'd like to share with the family.

          I do think this is like the admin who got a plush toy instead of a spa package, if your boss is used to being flighty because she can lean on you.

      2. kittymommy*

        Oohh, great idea!!

        Surly, I know how you feel, really. It seems like such a small thing to be upset by, I mean it’s not even mandated by the company, it’s just something that’s always done. If anything that makes it hurt worse. Feeling hurt by this is totally a legitimate, normal response. Don’t negate it, don’t do that to yourself.

        I’m really sorry about your grandmother. I’m sending you kitten, puppy, and baby bunny hugs!

  125. oof*

    How do I become a better communicator? My boss, grandboss, coworkers, friends, pretty much everyone misunderstands me. For example, I’ll say “Nice sweater” and my coworker will say something like “Ice weather? What do you mean, it’s 100 degrees outside??” I’m so frustrated and embarrassed by this. Can anyone relate and maybe give some advice?

    1. jDC*

      Not knowing what you sound like is speech therapy something you may need? Or perhaps you have an accent that is different from your coworkers. I know my husband is REALLY good at understanding people with any and all accents where as I cannot even understand his brother who grew up in Illinois. (think Boomhauer)

    2. animaniactoo*

      Have you ever tried working with a speech therapist? It sounds like you may not be enunciating clearly and a speech therapist would be able to help you address that.

      1. oof*

        I haven’t, but since jdc and you have suggested it, I may take it up. I’ll look for some in my area, thank you!

    3. Tableau Wizard*

      Is it a problem where they aren’t understanding the actual words that you’re saying or the meaning behind those words? The advice is very different based on the answer.

      1. oof*

        They misunderstand the actual words. They often hear something similar to what I said, but in the context sounds absurd like the example I used.

    4. That Would be a Good Band Name*

      Do you look away or trail off (lower your voice towards the end of your sentence) when speaking? My husband does this and I frequently hear crazy stuff like your example. (Walmart/wombat is one we laugh about years later)

      If you haven’t been told you need speech therapy before, I’d try making an effort to be sure that you are speaking at the same volume as others and making eye contact. If eye contact is uncomfortable or just seems like it’s excessive, then at least be sure to look in their direction. Not down or away.

    5. Mumbler*

      I can be a mumbler (and I have a slight, very occasional stutter) so this thing happens to me sometimes. For instance, my name is “Marie” and on multiple occasions, I’ve had people thing that my name is “Bree.” I find that I just have to enunciate better, but if it’s happening to you all the time, perhaps a speech therapist could be helpful.

    6. Policy Wonk*

      My MIL used to brag about taking elocution lessons. She certainly had clear pronunciation!

  126. Phones For Days*

    When can you stop the job hunt?

    I’ve been burnt by my current job during the hiring process, where the background check took almost a month and then HR kept pushing back on the start date by another 2 weeks! I (foolishly) chose to stick with the job even though I had to decline another interview and stopped looking for positions since I thought it’d be rude to drop out because the background check and HR took so long.

    Well I’ve paid my dues and want to move on to a different position. But when can I safely stop looking for a new position? Once I’m offered the position? Once I meet HR and get my signed offer letter? What if I’m waiting for the background check – can I still go to other interviews and then drop out of the background check for another job?

    Thank you!

      2. Phones for Days*

        So it’d be OK to be in the background check process for multiple positions?

    2. Construction Safety*

      Base on their performance, I’d job hunt until after my first week there.

    3. TPS Cover Report*

      It’s about as rude as keeping you on a limb too long. One signed contract is better than ten promises in the bush…

      And I’d keep looking until the probation period is over, if you have one.

  127. Eponymous*

    We have a situation at work where sophomore/junior level staff need to have a discussion with senior level staff about an number of alarming problems we are encountering.

    We’ve been discussing the issues for months but have been postponing meeting with senior staff due to some major deadlines. Some of us have let our supervisors know what’s going on, and I’ve had a few brief chats with some senior staff but nothing in-depth. We recently learned that many senior staff are aware of the problems but haven’t addressed them yet. I told the senior staff member that acknowledging the problems would be a step in the right direction, because right now it looks like they’re all unaware of everything that’s going on.

    When we finally get a meeting scheduled, what’s the best way to approach it? We don’t want to gang up on senior staff (particularly since there’s no way we’ll get more than two in a room simultaneously), but we do think they need to know that essentially all of us are frustrated and fed up. We’ve come up with solutions to several of the issues but can’t enact anything because we lack the authority and the time.

    Suggestions?

    1. WellRed*

      I would maybe pick the most major, pressing problems to outline, to start. You can also offer your possible solutions even if you don’t have the authority to act on them. Maybe have one or two people speak for the group, with others chiming in as relevant?

      1. Eponymous*

        (Apologies for the delay, I was pulled in multiple directions all for urgent projects.)

        We have everything narrowed into two issues:

        1) Equipment mismanagement, which is a combination of the former equipment manager retiring and not handing over the duties fully and (we believe) our freshman staff not respecting and cleaning/maintaining the shared equipment. Unfortunately (in a way), the equipment manager has come back from retirement and is now getting things back into shape, but it’s a superficial solution to the larger, latter issue. More viable solution: Distribute the equipment management/maintenance duties among several volunteer staff.

        2) No standardized training program for incoming staff and no retraining/accountability when things are done poorly. Solution: Implement any sort of training program, even a basic checklist of things a new staff person has done while shadowing sophomore/junior staff, but haven’t gotten anywhere (see: major deadlines). Our head of training claims he can meet with me next week after I sort of ambushed him in the lunchroom.

        1. WellRed*

          So, I think you’ve got a good handle on this! Clearly defined issues with solutions. You can’t make them implement any solutions, but it’s certainly worth asking.

    2. OtterB*

      Late comment. In addition to categorizing the problems like you have and offering solutions, I suggest you be explicit about the effects of the problems. Equipment out of order meant we were late doing project X for client Y. Errors by undertrained staff waste x hours in correcting the problems meaning we were unable to do these other things. Don’t assume senior staff see the impact as clearly as you do.

  128. Spool of Lies*

    I have a job offer conundrum and I’d love the commentariat’s advice!

    I recently interviewed for a permanent position at Company A. It’s the same as my current job but a much better organization. I’ve long wanted to work there and have applied for several positions (interviewed once but was not selected) in the past.

    On Wednesday, HR called me to inform me that I not selected for the permanent position at Company A (they went with an internal candidate) but I was offered the same role on an 18-month term. The benefits are substantially different for the term role such that the monetary value of the term position is about $7k-$10k less than the permanent role for which I originally applied. The salary for the permanent role is still $5k more than I currently make.

    HOWEVER, on literally the same day I was offered the term position, a manager from Company B I interviewed with in March contacted me about an 18-month term project coordinator position starting in September. She’s still waiting on grant funding so it’s not a sure thing but she already talked to HR about bypassing the position posting to hire me directly and is confident about the funding coming through. This role at Company B is as close to a “dream position” as my staunch pragmatism will allow. It is tangentially related to my graduate education and draws on my research and “cat herding” skills in a way the job at Company A never could. I’m not 100% sure of salary yet but it would be around the same as Company A if not a bit more plus WAY more vacation and better benefits.

    Manager at Company B won’t be able to give me an actual offer until end of July but I told her about the Company A offer so she said she’ll look into it more and give me a more firm but still not solid answer on Monday.

    I asked for a few days to think over Company A’s offer and I have ‪until Monday‬ to get back to them, otherwise they will move forward with other candidates. They seem somewhat annoyed with me for asking for time to consider.

    This is obviously an excellent problem to have but I’m freaking out.

    I really want to get out if my current position for all kinds of reasons I would need another post to explain, but I’m torn because I really like Company A and the position would be good for my career but Company B would be GREAT for my career and for other idealist reasons (it’s a non profit whose mission I am very much all about).

    Do I risk accepting the job at Company A and then backing out if Company B comes through? This stresses me out just thinking about it because integrity and all that fun Catholic guilt I’ve inherited genetically despite not being religious.

    Do I reject Company A and hope Company B comes through? My current job isn’t Hellmouth bad, just regular bad and even sometimes okay, so it wouldn’t be the end of the world if I end up declining A and B falls through but that seems like such a waste of an opportunity and Company A is truly a step up.

    Whaddaya think, wise and wondrous commenters?

    1. Alphabet Pony*

      I would reject Company A. It’s a red flag that they seem not-cool with you taking time to think about it.

      1. The New Wanderer*

        I would also be bothered knowing that I’m doing the same job as the permanent role for $7-10K less. Is it possible to negotiate the term role compensation to close that gap?

        They’re both 18 month positions so you’ll probably be on the market again in a year and a half, possibly with better skills out of Company B but not losing ground with Company A. If you would have taken Company A’s offer for the permanent position, and would take the term position for the same compensation as perm, I would respond with that on Monday and see what they say. But if you really, truly want Company B *and* Company A doesn’t budge, decline them and keep looking until you hear from Company B.

        1. Spool of Lies*

          You make excellent points, however, the issue is that the compensation difference comes down to benefits which are only available, as per the collective agreement, to permanent employees. I do not really have the ability to negotiate salary or other compensation in this field (i.e., classification system, steps, etc.).

          1. Coder von Frankenstein*

            Well, in that case, it’s pretty much a given that Company A won’t budge–they can’t.

            I’m leaning toward holding out for Company B here. If it were a permanent position, I might be more inclined to say “a bird in the hand,” but the job with Company A will vanish anyway in a year and a half. But see if Company B can give you a clearer picture on Monday. Are you basically guaranteed the job if the funding comes through? Or are you still competing against other candidates as well?

            1. Spool of Lies*

              Yes, it’s difficult to say how many birds I’m holding since these are both term positions and only one of them is a solid offer. For what it’s worth, I’m early enough in my career that I can take risks and not completely ruin anyone else’s life with my choices (no kids, no mortgage, etc.).

              The manager from Company B wants to hire me directly. She’s already sought permission from HR to bypass the posting so if the funding comes through she can offer me the job. The manager mentioned I might have to meet with the CEO first since she is very invested in the project as well, but I am confident enough in my skills and ability to do this job that I don’t think that would be an issue.

              I’m hoping to hear more on Monday morning. If Company B can give me at least an 80% likelihood, I’m willing to take the chance.

              Thanks so much for your input!

      2. Clisby*

        It sounds like they did give time to think about it.

        I can’t tell from the question how much time Company A gave, but I’d be surprised if any company gave someone more than a week to think about accepting/declining an offer.

    2. Emily S.*

      Company B sounds like a much better fit for what you really want. I think B is the best choice.
      Besides, September is not that far off, really!

      1. Spool of Lies*

        Thanks for your responses, Alphabet Pony and Emily S.

        Do you think Company B is better even though it’s not a firm offer? It’s definitely a better fit but it’s also not really an “offer” at this point so much as a possibility.

        1. Zephy*

          Company B sounds way better than Company A. I would turn down Company A but keep looking, while listening for any further word from Company B.

          1. Spool of Lies*

            That’s definitely an option, thanks. It is hard for me to keep looking (and remain patient) because positions in my current field in my area are few and far between, with Company A being one of two organizations in the field in this city, and positions in my desired field of Company B are near non-existent in my area.

  129. BlueWolf*

    I finally had my annual review. I had been needlessly agonizing about it for the last couple of weeks. My manager said last year that they would give me a promotion if I handled a new assignment well, but a part of me was still worried that somehow I hadn’t done enough this year to earn it. I got the promotion though! The salary increase is pretty good (almost 15%), and I got a pretty nice bonus on top of that. The last year has been a bit tough financially due to some things that have cropped up in my personal life, so it’s nice to feel like things are on the up-and-up (and to have some extra cash to pay down some debts).

  130. anonymoushiker*

    Non-traditional finance people: How did you make the jump into finance? Specifically, I’d like to work in combo finance/operations nonprofit roles. Coming from the ops background makes it a littler harder to get a foot in the door though.

    1. Countess Boochie Flagrante*

      I made the jump to finance by starting out with a finance-oriented company in a role that I already had experience in. That gave me a more general background and let me make an internal transition into a specifically finance-related role with the same company after I built the experience in their operations and knowledge of that specific area of finance.

    2. Natalie*

      I was in an admin/operations position when the entry-level finance person quit and I covered their role while the position was on hold (due to higher level turnover). Once they did open the hiring up again a couple of months later, I formally applied for it. As a general rule, I’d say mid-sized NFPs are your best bet – too small and they’ll only have one or two finance people in the first place, too large and they get more corporatized and harder to break into. This is the case in business, too, at least from my experience.

      If you have zero background in finance, it might be worth checking out certificates at a community college or state university’s continuing ed program. At a minimum, if you don’t know how the different financial statements work or what debits, credits, assets, liabilities, payable, receivables, etc, are, take a couple of 101 courses.

      1. anonymoushiker*

        I’ve worked adjacent to finance-anything from analyzing a dataset that serves as the data for our monthly invoice, handling petty cash, purchasing, logging expenditures in po logs, calculating payroll. I know how to dig around in our accounting software. I just haven’t had the direct experience. I think if I talk to our finance staff I could probably get some finance-related projects to get some more experience. The classes idea is also great!

        1. Natalie*

          That’s awesome, it sounds like you’re getting some decent experience for an entry level position. If you think your current place would be amenable, you could also see if there’s any cross-training you could do, or any lower level finance related tasks they would be happy to hand off to someone. For example, we have a new assistant starting in our purchasing department who will be entering a lot of purchase orders into our accounting system, which means they’re interacting with both our inventory and accounts payable modules.

          1. anonymoushiker*

            I’m not entry level-just got promoted to director of administration but thinking more long term about stepping a halfstep more into finance than where I’m at right now.

  131. TPS Cover Sheet*

    I’m climbing the walls (figuratively). Monday I am going to London to go get the sack from my technical architect job at the big consultancy. Well, a golden handshake hopefully, but knowing the company it might feel like a shower. Tuesday I got an interview at a local company with really shitty glassdoor reviews, but only at the overseas parent and not the local one. Job is 2nd level tech support of a bespoke system. Wednesday I got an interview at a public actor to be a linux admin, tbh I’d love to be the BOFH once again. I got my fingers, toes and eyes crossed…

    My problem is I am 50 and starting my cover letters ”20 years of experience…” I am sure my CV gets binned. Also I don’t want to go back on the London run. Southern Trains, nuff said. But when I apply for the local jobs I can do with maybe half the salary I make now, I think they bin me for being with ”too much experience”… and why do they ask about the salary expectations – you posted the salary, if I didn’t think it was OK then why would I have applied?

    So, hivemind, how do I dumb myself down and get attractive to the jobs I want? Be brutal.

    1. anonymoushiker*

      Could you be vaguer about the years of experience in your letters? I think Alison says the last 10-15 years on a resume?

      1. TPS Cover Report*

        I’ve already dropped my previous career(s) which is about 15 years off my CV… maybe if I drop my older degrees and military service, but my IT career starts 1999 and thats 11 years in the same company, and I have my Bachelors from 2001. Thats pushing me into my 40’s even if its all this century.

        1. Autumnheart*

          Would it be feasible to format your cover letters to focus on what kinds of experience you have, as opposed to “20 years of experience”? If you break it up like “I have 3 years of experience in X, 2.5 years in Y, 5 years in Z and 3 years in Q,” then you can keep it to only the most recent, relevant stuff.

          1. TPS Cover Sheet*

            Yes, targetted cover letters. And I think I will need to make a single pdf out of them so the recruiter actually sees them. These days it seems everything goes through an automated system that parses your CV totally into something illegibile, and tosses it out unless some ”magic phrases” hit…

            I applied directly to a company for a job in my niche I know they have maybe 8 potential candidates in the country. Got a generic rehjection. Then got approached by an agent and got through to interviews. And lost to one of the eight who had been a contractor so they hired internal. Still pisses me off that generic rejection…

    2. Ladyb*

      Would you consider working for the NHS? I’m in SE UK as well, and there’s a real problem recruiting to IT posts as we’re competing against the draw of London and the trendy digital companies in Brighton. We’re seeing a shift towards (relatively) more investment in technology thanks to our new Health Secretary. I was also surprised how reasonable the salaries are. Plus 14% employer pension contribution!
      Have a look on the NHS jobsite, as we’re very poor at advertising tech posts through the usual channels

  132. Amethyst*

    So my new/old job is turning into a dumpster fire of sorts. This week I learned that “Jane” isn’t doing the job people expect of her & she gets away with it.

    “Agatha” has had some sort of mental break (speculation at work) these past few months & has been acting paranoid, suspicious, & confused. She’s made several massive mistakes in our program where she usually made one or two minor ones. These mistakes cost us big bucks. She shows up half an hour late to work without approval, & some other things as well. They had a meeting with Agatha a few days ago. She is now acting like her old self, but it doesn’t seem like they’ve spoken to her re: her lateness, per her underlings in that department. They’re waiting for the other shoe to drop with her. One of those people was supposed to start working in my department on Monday, but that’s been pushed back several times. Now it’s the 29th. Agatha wanted to delay it into September sometime, & my boss “Janet” ripped her a new one.

    Meanwhile, Jane is up to her old tricks. She’s been there 11 years, has an inches thick folder in HR filled with complaints (known to sabotage her backups, doesn’t inform you of things related to your job/client, & just for being a huge bitch to people who’ve done nothing), & she has taken my old job.

    For background, my old position was a deposit admin. I had to send daily reports on cash inflow, post payments to thousands of accounts daily, compile batch reports for our payment posters (posting specialized info to those same accounts), & a bunch of other little things. These batches were ALWAYS in order (1, 2, 3, 4…) & each batch always had the same invoice company attached. I made it EASY for the payment posters to do their job. I created a notebook a year ago for reference if I was ever out. It’s extremely detailed, with screenshots & arrows explaining “This number goes here, that goes there” & all that.

    Jane ignores it. Doesn’t do a thing with it. Instead of leaving it as is, she makes it 8935x harder. She doesn’t call a company when an invoice is missing. She prints out whatever is available & shoves it into the batch & labels it batch 5 when it should be 3. On the sheet we use to sign out ownership/working the batch, it reads “Lollipops batch 3, Chocolate batch 1, mail batch 395…” When she’s asked why this check is missing invoices to balance, it’s “Oh, yeah, I noticed that. Not sure why. That’s all that was on the website though. Ask Amy what she wants to do with it.” When she’s been told to make the sheets in alphanumeric order as applicable: “It’s too hard. I’m doing as much as I can. I’m very busy.”

    ?!?

    Well. Amy is head of finances in our department & also trains others + the gofer for our head bosses. Her time is nil. She’s running at a deficit & works from home in the afternoons trying to catch up on her own work. I asked Amy how Jane gets away with this shit. If *I* had pulled even HALF the stunts she’s pulled toward me in the 2.5 years I worked there before being laid off, I would’ve been fired. Yet she gets away with this shit *every damn day* & it’s “Oh, that’s Jane. Just do what she’s not doing. Yes, I know she’s supposed to do it, but shh… Just deal. Yes, I know it’s not your job & I appreciate you doing this.” from all our bosses.

    WHAT. THE ACTUAL. F.

    *explodes*

    Thanks for reading my vent.

    1. NicoleK*

      Oh I relate. My incompetent BEC coworker gets away with so much. She arrives 2-3 hours late regularly. Logs off the business line for hours at a time when one of our primary responsibility is to answer the business line. Only wants to work on her pet projects/causes. Is unorganized. Barely knows how to use a computer. Writes long rambling nonsensical emails. Can’t accept feedback or constructive criticism. Takes forever to complete tasks. Goes around the Boss when she doesn’t get the answer she wants. I’ve talked our Boss about it, but she seems to be more concerned about not hurting incompetent coworker’s feelings.

  133. Breast Solidarity*

    May I ask a question about FMLA? Our HR department sucks, so I don’t trust anything they tell me and I will get six different answers.

    I had my first chemo yesterday. My FMLA paperwork is in process. At a meeting with my manager this week though, she made a comment that made it sound like I am expected to use up all my sick leave and vacation time before I can take time as FMLA. This is going to be a long haul for me, and I know that I will need some real breaks (as will partner!), and even for sick time the cancer treatments don’t mean that I will magically never get a migraine (with puking) or run-of-the-mill sick and need time off that is not FMLA.

    Is this up to the place of work or are there rules around this? I have a good cushion, so at this point I would actually like to take most of this time I need as unpaid FMLA and save my PTO for the usual needs.

    1. Persephone Mulberry*

      IME, being required to use up your vacation and sick time either ahead of or concurrently with FMLA leave is pretty standard.

    2. L.S. Cooper*

      I believe that’s how FMLA works in general, having just been overhearing this conversation with my dad. You have to use all of your paid time off first, and then you get to start using the unpaid time. It’s so stupid.

      I hope everything goes well for you with the chemo <3

    3. Hope*

      Yep, it’s pretty standard.

      Though I would think you could probably use FMLA for a migraine since it *could* be related to your chemo/treatments as a side effect?

    4. Murphy*

      It’s all considered FMLA, but having to use your sick/vacation before you can take unpaid is pretty standard.

    5. $!$!*

      At my job (healthcare) and my mom’s job (insurance) the employer requires any paid leave to be used concurrently with FMLA until it runs out. The employer is legally allowed to do so under FMLA. Yes I think it’s dumb

    6. That Would be a Good Band Name*

      FMLA is not paid. HOWEVER, your employer can require you to use your PTO/Sick/Vacation/whatever they call it concurrent with FMLA. Not all employers will, but most do in my experience. I would guess based on what your manager said that your company (like most!) requires all sick and vacation to be used when taking FMLA. If you have an employee handbook, I’d look through it. It should cover leaves of absence and the company policy around them.

      Note: There may be some state related things that I’m not familiar with. I’m in the midwest and this policy works for the states that my company operates in. If you are in a state that mandates sick leave or anything like that, I’d try googling FMLA + state to see if anything more specific comes up.

      1. Breast Solidarity*

        By concurrent with FMLA means they could paid sick time also against the 12 weeks of FMLA?

        YIKES!

        1. LCL*

          Maybe look at it like this. First, your manager is wrong. FMLA is a classification of leave. There is no money that goes with it. If you take 4 weeks of sick leave, it’s not FMLA covered leave. If you decide that you want it to be FMLA covered for your protection, you apply for FMLA ideally before you take your 4 weeks of sick leave. You are on FMLA covered leave, and you are using sick leave to pay for it. The two systems, FMLA and sick leave, are happening at the same moment in time, and applied to the same condition, but they are separate systems and unrelated to each other.

          Your company does not get to require you to use up all of your paid leave before you qualify for FMLA status. If they are doing that, they are doing it wrong. They can require you to use your paid leave to cover your hours if you are on FMLA leave. They can’t forbid you from using FMLA if you are out of leave, you still get the FMLA. The leave will be unpaid.

          https://www.dol.gov/whd/fmla/fmla-faqs.htm

          1. Breast Solidarity*

            Thank you!

            I have a fair amount of banked vacation leave that I am more worried about — I have a child getting married next year out of state and I really don’t want to have to use up all my vacation for this so I miss the wedding (plus this whole circus is stressful, and I am going to need some non-medical leave over the next year just for sanity for myself and my family!) so this is very reassuring to hear.

            1. Darren*

              It seems like you aren’t quite getting what people are saying. Your company CAN force you to use ALL of your paid leave during FMLA.

              They can’t say you have to use your paid leave before you go on FMLA (which would make that paid leave not FMLA protected), but once you are on FMLA they can make you use your paid leave anyway (before getting unpaid leave).

              In a lot of ways their saying you can use your paid leave first (instead of merely concurrently like most companies will do) allows you to get a longer potential time off.

        2. That Would be a Good Band Name*

          Concurrent meaning (for example) you need to use 4 weeks of FMLA. You have 1 week of sick and 2 weeks of vacation. The first three weeks of FMLA are paid, because you are using your 3 total weeks of sick/vacation. The final week is FMLA is unpaid because you are out of sick/vacation. So you are on FMLA leave the whole time. It’s just that the employer requires you to use the PTO they give you while you are on FMLA leave.

          1. Breast Solidarity*

            But if I needed the entire 12 weeks of FMLA my paid time off would count against the 12 weeks?

        3. Jen2*

          Yep, that’s my understanding. So unfortunately you’re actually relatively lucky that you don’t have to use it concurrently. As another commenter mentioned, I’d probably frame the FMLA as sick time in my mind and use FMLA for any sick leave you need to take after your PTO has been depleted, no matter how tenuous the link between the sickness and your treatment.

    7. AutolycusinExile*

      Yeah, from what I’ve heard that’s fairly standard. If you can swing it, I’d recommend saving the money from the ‘paid’ days off now as a rainy day fund, after which you can use it to make some unpaid time off later on ‘paid’. If you can’t come in, you can’t come in, and you’d be well within your rights to take a little time later on for more healthcare – just that time it’d be mental health!

      1. Breast Solidarity*

        No. But we have a healthy 6-month emergency fund built up, so we are sort of self-insured for that.

  134. Ms. Rogerina Meddows*

    I need advice on how to ask about a promotion, especially with regard to timing. My coworker, Kelly, was fired this week and my department is getting a temp to fill the open position. Kelly was in an “associate” role in my department, and me and two other coworkers are “assistants”, which are a step below Associate. (These aren’t our actual job titles; I’m trying to avoid doxxing myself or my coworkers.) I know how to do most of Kelly’s old job already and served as a backup in her absence. My boss, Toby, has already de facto assigned me to her old role, but we haven’t discussed an actual promotion. We’re getting a temp because we need someone right away, but I’m not sure when a new full-timer will be hired. I’m almost certain that any temp or new FT person will be hired into an Assistant role because that’s the way it’s always gone when we’ve hired new people, because the Associate role requires specific inside knowledge of our Assistant role. I know I need to ask about it soon, but I also don’t want to seem too eager. As relieved as I am that Kelly is gone, because she was a persistent problem for YEARS, I also know it was a tough week for Toby and for the assistant manager, Phyllis.

    Related to the end of my last paragraph, Kelly was a persistent problem employee for years. She was lazy and spent her days making personal calls and texts, doing personal errands on the computer, and generally goofing off while the rest of us were drowning in work. (Yes, she knew how to do our tasks and it’s expected that you help your coworkers if you’re not busy and they are.) She also had a nasty, rude attitude and was generally unpleasant to the point of people in other departments actively avoiding having to deal with her. Phyllis got caught up in the nastiness and gossiped about people with Kelly on a regular basis to avoid becoming a target of hers. (Since Kelly’s been gone, Phyllis has been a lot quieter and a lot more pleasant.) One of my old coworkers quit with nothing lined up because he couldn’t deal with her anymore. Toby was too non-confrontational to deal with her directly, and our old department head was protecting her for some unknown reason. My coworkers and I got so fed up with Kelly’s nonsense that we complained to HR about her as a group. (It was my nine pages of notes on her over two years that helped HR to build the case against her.) HR and Toby had a meeting about Kelly and they were due to sit down with her this week to put her on a PIP, but they didn’t make it that far, because…plot twist! Kelly was caught stealing, and when a manager (not ours) called her out for it, she cussed them out. I don’t know if she used a slur, but it wouldn’t surprise me, because she’s used racist and homophobic slurs before when gossiping about people. The altercation happened last week, and she was gone by early this week. (The stealing wasn’t arrest-level, but it was big enough to warrant firing even without the verbal altercation.)

    Even though it was a shock to find out, my coworkers and I are all relieved we don’t have to put up with Kelly anymore. Even Phyllis and Toby are relieved, even if the latter won’t say it directly. It’s been cathartic for Toby and I to clean out her desk, and I feel like a boulder has been lifted off of me. A swift, no if’s-and’s-or but’s firing is easier on all of us because this way we don’t have to deal with the dragged-out PIP/progressive discipline process. It may sound callous, but this has been one of the best weeks of my career. I don’t dread going to work anymore, and that change came THE NEXT DAY after the firing. I also saw one of my favorite bands perform this week. It’s been quite a week, and it was one I would have never seen coming in a million years. I still can’t believe that a persistent, years-long problem is finally OVER, and that it happened so quickly.

    1. WellRed*

      Its amazing how much one bad coworker can cast a pall over an entire office. You must feel like the clouds have parted and a choir (or musical group of your choice) is singing.

      1. Ms. Rogerina Meddows*

        It really is. Yes, the clouds parted…and “We Are the Champions” (the Live Aid version) played on repeat in my earbuds on the way home. It was all I had to not burst out singing on the train.

  135. LessNosy*

    Ugh, anyone got tips on controlling my mouth when I’m frustrated/burnt out and a peer makes a crappy comment?

    I almost never take time off (mainly because I’m so swamped due to my boss continuously giving me more work despite my protests and ignoring my and my coworkers’ cries for help, so if I took time off I’d be even more behind) save for maybe a Friday here and there (which are half days for us). I also work remotely which is nice, but I would still like to be able to use my vacation time without snide comments! My boss doesn’t have a problem with us remote folks taking time off, but whenever I mention my time off in our group meetings, inevitably at least one of my coworkers will have something negative to say about it. When I announced in our team meeting today that I would be taking 3 days off two weeks from now (worth noting that no one will have to cover for me or anything), I got the following comments: “but you work remotely, why would you want vacation!!” and “but you say you’re so busy!!” and “I wish I could take 3 days off!!” (from someone who just took a week off and I had to cover for). Then one of my other remote coworkers (there are only 3 of us) mentions taking a week off in August and he gets the same treatment – “but you say you’re so busy! You just said you’re swamped! Why are you taking time off!” It just sucks because people in the office never get told things like that when they bring up their time off to the group. It’s “have fun!” or “where are you visiting?”

    Like I said, I need control my mouth and I would welcome tips on how to do that, but I snapped and said to the group, “Wow, good thing we don’t have to ask you all for permission!” I know I need to control my comments but holy crap, they’re our hours, you’re not our bosses, let us take time off IN PEACE!!! I loathe the needling little nosy comments that are constant in our company culture. It’s normally something I could brush off, but when I’m overworked and burnt out and desperate need of a few days off, stuff like that just puts me over the edge – as it did today.

    And yes, I’m currently job searching.

    1. WellRed*

      I don’t think your comment was all that bad, to be honest. Sure, it could have been a little better (I might have gone with “So, are you saying you don’t think remote workers deserve time off?”). I am guessing your boss/company isn’t great if everyone feels overworked and is snapping at each other, not to mention some folks apparently have an issue with remote work.

      1. LessNosy*

        Yep. Our department’s responsibilities have grown exponentially, but we haven’t gotten a new person on our team since 2014 while everyone around us has, multiple times. I’m not sure where the issue is, whether it lies with my boss or someone above, but we are all overworked and snappy in my department! I think that’s why I worry that I’m being too harsh back… I’m glad no one thinks I was too over the line :)

    2. Buttons*

      I don’t think your comment was out of line, they are being ridiculous. Why do they even care if you taking time off?
      Take your time off and enjoy it!

    3. Me*

      Try the matter-of-fact and with a tinge of what you’re saying is weird (it’s in the tone) approach .

      But you work remotely! – “Yes Karen, the key word there is work. Since I am working just form a different location, I do still need days off to rest and recharge.”

      Wish I could take 3 days off! – “You just took a week Karen. I too need time off.” or “Oh I’m sorry Karen, I wasn’t aware you had used all your leave for the year. Hang in there”

      But you’re so busy! – “Well yes Karen I am. It’s very important to take leave to prevent burn-out and poor work performance especially when busy as multiple studies have shown.”

      But but but – ” I really don’t understand why you find it strange or necessary to comment on my using my leave benefits. I’d like you to stop. Thank you.”

    4. Kathenus*

      Late comment, but if you see this, my advice is to just ignore it. Stop letting her have any power over you by letting her stupid comments take up your mental energy. She doesn’t control your time off. In fact, if it was me, I’d be smiling inside that my taking time off was taking up so much of ‘her’ mental energy. But I’m petty that way.

  136. FrustratedVP*

    This is more of a vent, I don’t really need advice.
    My organization is very flat, we don’t have a lot of people at the manager/director levels. I have one director who reports to me and the rest are individual contributors. One of my ICs (who in inherited after a restructuring) has the title of Program Manager. He is to manage the entirety of a training program we offer in the region. I have explained to him that it means he is to come up with his strategy, his communication plan, his training schedule, keep his content up to date, to continue to look for opportunities to offer this program around the region, and to begin planning on ways that it can be offered remotely. The majority of our employees work remotely or work on client sites, so it would be beneficial if we offered at least a portion of this curriculum virtually.
    He isn’t getting it. For context, he a senior level IC and has been in this field for well over 10 years. He wants me to micromanage him. I believe he is used to reporting to a manager or maybe a director-level person, and not someone who is a VP of a region. I have told him over and over again, I am here to offer guidance, direction, feedback, to help him overcome any obstacles he may encounter, and to help him recognize possible obstacles before they become obstacles. His job is to manage his program and execute his plan. But if I don’t meet with him at the beginning and end of every week, nothing moves. Nothing.
    In April I gave him his annual performance review and marked him as needs-improvement, I have clearly lined out what is expected of him. I am meeting with him 2x a week-, and if October comes and this is still the norm I am going to have to let him go. He has the ability to do the work, but not to execute it unless I tell him exactly what to do and when to do it by. My expectations for someone at that level is for them to function fairly autonomously once we have set the strategy, goals, and metrics. I am not sure if I can get him to that level.
    It is so frustrating.

    1. Ali G*

      Just a question – was his former manager a micromanager? I ask because I worked for a micromanager for a bit and when I left that job and took a new one, it took me a long time to realize that my new boss didn’t want to know everything I was working on or to review emails (yes my former boss wanted to review every external email I wrote before sending), etc. I was a bit paralyzed before my boss was finally like – no just do it! Then I was terrified! Because in the past if I just did something and my boss didn’t know about it, I would get in trouble.
      Eventually I figured it out, but I think my boss thought there was something wrong with me at first.
      Maybe he really isn’t a good fit, but I just wanted to throw this out there.

      1. FrustratedVP*

        I don’t know who his former manager was or their style. I have talked to him about it, I have told him I trust his abilities, I trust his experience, I trust he is capable, and I empower him to just do it. We meet often enough that if something did go off the rails, it wouldn’t be a big deal because we would catch it so soon.
        At one point he gave me his communication plan. I said it looked great, approved it after one minor adjustment to a date because it conflicted with something else. I gave him the names of each person within the region he needed to provide it to and in what languages it needed to be translated to (even all that I would expect someone at his level to do/find on his own) and nothing happened. When a few of the communications weren’t published, I asked him why he, said he gave them to me. I clearly told him in our meeting that it was great and to move forward. He honestly wants me to do more things than I should have to do for him.
        I can’t get a grasp as to why he wants me to do those things. It isn’t a workload issue, his workload is more than manageable and could honestly be handled by one of my other employees on top of her much bigger and much more robust programs.

    2. Just stoppin' by to chat*

      Why are you waiting to let him go until October? Is that a policy at your company (I’m assuming they’re on a PIP or something like that?) Since you can justifiably say you have other high-pri responsibilities, what if you stopped meeting with him 2x a week. Although I’m assuming you are ultimately judged/held to account for his program. Could you bring in a temp/jr. PM to help with the logistics now, since you would need to backfill when you let the current PM go in October?

      I completely get the frustration!

      1. FrustratedVP*

        He is on PIP, so I am giving him time to get it, to be able to take ownership of his program. I won’t have any trouble dividing some things up if I let him go until I can hire someone. It is also complicated because he isn’t in the US, and the laws for terminating someone are a bit stricter in his country.

  137. Seeking Second Childhood*

    Hi Alison, I’ve been sharing Hellmouth stories with people in real life enough that I channeled my insomnia in a slightly positive way… if anyone wants a list of ALL the Hellmouth posts & updates, I’ve compiled a list of links.

    https://www.askamanager.org/2018/10/my-new-job-is-a-nightmare-built-on-a-hellmouth.html
    https://www.askamanager.org/2018/12/updates-the-hellmouth-am-i-too-generous-and-more.html
    https://www.askamanager.org/2018/11/open-thread-november-2-3-2018.html#comment-2213795
    https://www.askamanager.org/2018/11/open-thread-november-23-24-2018.html#comment-2239754
    https://www.askamanager.org/2018/11/open-thread-november-30-december-1-2018.html#comment-2250348
    (nothing 12/7)
    https://www.askamanager.org/2018/12/open-thread-december-14-15-2018.html#comment-2267832
    https://www.askamanager.org/2018/12/open-thread-december-21-22-2018.html#comment-2276750
    (nothing 12/25)
    https://www.askamanager.org/2019/01/open-thread-january-4-5-2019.html#comment-2288778
    https://www.askamanager.org/2019/01/open-thread-january-11-12-2019.html#comment-2300040
    https://www.askamanager.org/2019/01/open-thread-january-18-19-2019.html#comment-2309657
    https://www.askamanager.org/2019/01/open-thread-january-25-26-2019.html#comment-2318827
    https://www.askamanager.org/2019/02/open-thread-february-1-2-2019.html#comment-2328366
    https://www.askamanager.org/2019/02/open-thread-february-8-9-2019.html#comment-2338815
    https://www.askamanager.org/2019/02/open-thread-february-15-16-2019.html#comment-2348781
    https://www.askamanager.org/2019/02/open-thread-february-22-23-2019.html#comment-2358472
    https://www.askamanager.org/2019/03/open-thread-march-1-2-2019.html#comment-2369049
    https://www.askamanager.org/2019/03/open-thread-march-8-9-2019.html#comment-2379079
    https://www.askamanager.org/2019/03/open-thread-march-15-16-2019.html#comment-2388006
    https://www.askamanager.org/2019/03/open-thread-march-22-23-2019.html#comment-2399199
    https://www.askamanager.org/2019/03/open-thread-march-29-30-2019.html#comment-2408088
    https://www.askamanager.org/2019/04/open-thread-april-5-6-2019.html#comment-2419871
    https://www.askamanager.org/2019/04/open-thread-april-12-13-2019.html#comment-2428558
    https://www.askamanager.org/2019/04/open-thread-april-19-20-2019.html#comment-2439522
    https://www.askamanager.org/2019/04/open-thread-april-26-27-2019.html#comment-2450141
    https://www.askamanager.org/2019/05/open-thread-may-3-4-2019.html#comment-2459599
    https://www.askamanager.org/2019/05/open-thread-may-10-11-2019.html#comment-2468762
    https://www.askamanager.org/2019/05/open-thread-may-17-18-2019.html#comment-2479116
    https://www.askamanager.org/2019/05/open-thread-may-24-25-2019.html#comment-2489643
    https://www.askamanager.org/2019/05/open-thread-may-31-june-1-2019.html#comment-2498624
    https://www.askamanager.org/2019/06/open-thread-june-7-8-2019.html#comment-2508206 s
    https://www.askamanager.org/2019/06/open-thread-june-14-15-2019.html#comment-2518903
    https://www.askamanager.org/2019/06/open-thread-june-21-22-2019.html#comment-2529284
    https://www.askamanager.org/2019/06/open-thread-june-28-29-2019.html#comment-2539997
    https://www.askamanager.org/2019/06/open-thread-june-28-29-2019.html#comment-2539994

    And now the sound of silence as we wait to hear good news that her new employer is sane.

    1. Murphy*

      Thanks for sharing! I’d missed the one where she got a new job (probably because I also got a new job) and was wondering what happened. Also hoping no news is good news on the former Hellmouth front!

      1. Emily S.*

        I hope so too. I’m really hoping she sends Alison an update with more details.
        I also really hope her new job is going well.

    3. TPS Cover Report*

      You should make a blog of Hellmouth, like the BOFH diaries back in the 90’s… they’re now a few books.

      1. Seeking Second Childhood*

        She should. Obviously I’d read it if I bothered to pull together all her links!

    5. I WORKED on a Hellmouth*

      Wow, that is so many posts.

      I’ll post about the first week at the new job after I get home tonight (if Tropical Storm Barry doesn’t take out our power out before then), and even fill you in on the Hellmouth-lashing-out shenanigans. ;)

      1. Jen in Oregon*

        Pleasepleasepleasepleaseplease do!! I will come back and look for it! And stay safe!

        1. I WORKED on a Hellmouth*

          I am being whisked off for pre-hurricane/post first-week-at-a-new-job tacos, so I’ll write it up either late tonight or early tomorrow, promise!

          1. tangerineRose*

            And if there are old stories you didn’t have time to tell us before, we’d all love to hear them!

            1. I WORKED on a Hellmouth*

              Oh man, I cut so much stuff out (believe it or not, for brevity… well, that and because the sheer amount of stuff stretched credibility). Pick a category or topic, and I could probably tell you stories for days.

  138. Dzhymm*

    Okay, here’s my sitch: back in April I was let go from my job. Officially it was “termination without cause”, but realistically it was for a combination of underperformance and insubordination. See, I have a ton of experience making coffeepots and this place was making teapots. I thought that my experience would transfer over pretty easily, but their teapots have a very intricate design and some custom fabrication steps which were not well-documented. I was able to put out teapots eventually, but very slowly because of all that I didn’t know. My boss confronted me in December and put me on an informal PIP but without appropriate resources: “You’re going to have to put out X teapots a month”, but they never took ownership of *their* part in this, which in my opinion was insufficient onboarding. I really tried, but I made mistakes by trying to crank out teapots too fast. After one too many scoldings from my boss I informed my colleagues that I could no longer work for them. That was their cue to let me go.

    TL;DR I was hung out to dry by not being properly onboarded, then being punished for the ensuing underperformance.

    Fast-forward to now: I’ve been working at a new job for about a month now. It’s with a very large organization that has tons of onboarding resources for general procedures, but once again I’m climbing a steep learning curve learning my particular group’s intricate teapot designs.

    Naturally, I’m terrified of a repeat performance; that I’ll try but won’t catch on fast enough, and my performance will be found wanting. My question is this: should I tell my boss about my experience and my fear during my weekly 1-on-1? I asked a bunch of my friends and they were all saying “No, don’t tell Boss about this, look forward, not back, that was in the past”, etc. Still, I wouldn’t mind a second opinion from this distinguished gathering. Thoughts?

    1. Buttons*

      That entire situation sucks!
      For your new job, I would meet with your boss, and instead of framing it around your past negative experience, frame it as a positive way to ensure your growth. First, I would ask your boss when he expects you to be 100%, then ask him if together you can come up with a training/learning/development plan to make sure you are up to speed in his expected time frame. Managers have the responsibility of setting these expectations and making sure the resources are there. Employees are responsible for making sure the manager knows they need those resources, and then to follow through with that training plan. It is great that you have weekly 1:1s already in place that is a great first step.

      Hope this helps! Good luck!

    2. animaniactoo*

      I think you can address your fears without mentioning the previous experience.

      “I’m concerned that I may not catch on fast enough and I really want to do everything that I can to prevent that. Can you give me an idea of what you expect to see from me at this point and within, say, a month from now? What resources there might be to help me succeed if I’m struggling? Are there resources now that you can point me towards to try and help me get up to speed more quickly? I’m willing to do my own research/reading, but would appreciate if you have any particular direction or resources that you know of and think are good ones.”

      After that, however, I think that you have to deal with a certain amount of benefit of the doubt that these guys are not your last workplace and you will not have the same experience with them and just go forth and get through the training period.

      1. Seeking Second Childhood*

        Yes to this. If there’s a departmental SOP get a copy and use it. Keep notes in it where things aren’t detailed enough or where process/technology has evolved. If there is NOT one, tell your manager you’ll be writing up your notes as you go and ask how often she or he would like to check it over. Or if there is a senior person who can be assigned to check your answers once or twice a month.
        This can start as simple as a running list of ALL your questions along with the answers. Workflows on big paper — Who do I give this to for approval and how long does it stay there, who does it go to after that?
        Bullet points of relevant industry regulations that must be followed. Codes for pulling out BOM & where-used information from the manufacturing database.
        You get the idea — if they didn’t document it for you, then you get to be the hero if you document it for THEM. Good luck!

    3. Dzhymm*

      Perhaps I should add that contributing to the stress is that I absolutely, totally aced the interview for this job. The recruiter told me that the decision to hire was unanimous among all interviewers, which has only happened like twice in the past year… which means that I feel there are incredibly high expectations of me. Imposter syndrome, anyone?

  139. Ra94*

    What work practices/habits should I be aware of when I move from working in the US to the UK?
    I don’t mean cultural things like making endless cups of tea- I studied and interned in the UK before spending a bit of time working back home in the US, so I’m aware that of those kinds of habits. But I know practical things like signing a contract (I’ll be full-time in a law office), using sick days, pensions, doing taxes will be quite different! I’m also only a year out of college, so it’s all a bit new to me anyways, and I want to avoid making any uber-American faux pas.

    1. anon for this*

      Yikes – probably stay away from cultural stereotypes like “making endless cups of tea”.

      Besides that, I would say try to find a good mentor you can trust while you begin navigating your new career. Good luck!

      1. Alphabet Pony*

        We do make endless cups of tea though, based on every office I’ve ever worked in anyway.

        Honestly I think this will depend a bit on your field / industry. For example if you’re in the public sector or third sector it’s really normal to be asked for details of why you’re off sick – when I’ve mentioned that elsewhere people who work in the private sector are all “Ugh, no, that’s not a thing” so it depends.

        1. Ra94*

          Ok, interesting, so I’ll keep an eye out for my workplace’s norms regarding sick day info. (It will be private sector, if that matters).

      2. Ra94*

        I’ve interned in four different UK firms over six years and the endless cups of tea are my personal experience, not a cultural stereotype. I’m aware that not everyone drinks tea, but I know that offering to make a cup when I’m making my own is considered polite, for example, and I know to expect that every office will have a kettle (which I’ve not seen in an American office.)
        The mentor tip sounds great, I’ll look out for one!

    2. Arts Akimbo*

      I wasn’t in the UK for one full day before a friend shook her head sadly and taught me how to make a *real* cup of tea (not the underbrewed version we usually drink in the USA!) :) It was the first time I’d ever been able to use tea as a substitute for coffee for my caffeine fix! May some kind soul similarly show you the magic! :)

    3. NeverNicky*

      1. Sick days really are for being ill or a mental health day – we don’t keep them in a bank to use. Then again, we generally have more generous annual leave allowances than most US employees.
      2. Tea really is what powers most offices, but the takeaway coffee habit has caught on.
      3. There’s memes about what the British say, and what they really mean. There’s more than a smidge of truth in them. We’re quite good at hiding shade behind immaculate politeness.
      4. The weather and traffic/commute are always safe topics of conversation.
      5. Generally taxes are paid at source – just check your tax code is correct. National Insurance is also deducted. Allowances are automatically calculated. Unless you have non-employment income you likely won’t need to file a return (but it’s easy to do online) but you’ll still need to do a US one.
      6. We are probably even more reluctant to talk salaries and money! With our low inflation rate, COL rises are around 1.5%

    4. Bagpuss*

      Sick days – sickness and holiday are separate and you are not expected to use sick days unless you are actually sick (in most places it would be a disciplinary offence if you were to use them inappropriately).
      Things kike routine medical / dental checkups are not sickness so you would typically be expected to schedule those in your own time, not use sick leave (although a lot of places will have either a formal or informal policy that if you book at the start or end of the day so you are late in or need to leave early, you can do so and make up the time, rather than using time off. Check what is normal for your office)
      You can generally self-certify for between 3 days and 1 week at a time for sickness, longer periods you would usually need a ‘fit note’ from your doctor.
      Your contract should set out what entitlement you have to paid sick leave. (statutory law doesn’t require any paid sick leave, but if you are off for 3 consecutive days or longer yo will get paid statutory sick pay which is a subsistence level payment from your employer.)

      Pensions – Assuming that your are over 22 and earning £10,000 p.a. or more, you will automatically be enrolled into your employer’s workplace pension. The employer will deduct 4% of your pay to go int the pension, and they will pay a minimum of 3% , and you then get tax relief on top. The 3% your employer pays in is the legal minimum, some employers will pay more, or will ‘match’ any extra you chose to pay in. Their contributions are free money for you, so take advantage of it! (I think our pensions work differently to US schemes – you can’t withdraw funds until you are 55, but you can transfer them to a new pension if you change jobs, or have multiple funds with different providers )

      Tax – if you are an employee then your tax is dealt with by the employer. You pay via PAYE (Pay as you earn) so the employee declares your income to the inland revenue, and deducts the tax at source and pays it for you, so it will show on your payslip but the money never comes to you.
      Unless you have other assets or income you won’t need to do a tax return. Your tax relief on pension contributions is also dealt with directly by the pension company, at least if you are a basic rate payer (I’m not sure about if you are a higher rate payer, as I’ve only ever been a higher rate payer when I’ve also been self-employed and having to do a tax return) . If you are a US citizen you’ll need to check whether you need to also do a US return.

    5. Jules the First*

      Some thoughts:
      – it’s ok to take a few days to review your contract, but unless you’re in the tiniest of firms, it’s pretty much non negotiable
      – sick time – you will often be expected to tell them why you were off sick with an uncomfortably graphic level of detail, which feels incredibly intrusive but they are absolutely entitled to insist on that level of detail
      – references are not a thing in the way they are in the US. You will need contact details for HR, so they can confirm you did actually work where you say you did, but no one (or almost no one) will ask any questions about the calibre of your work
      – taxes are high. The higher rate tax bracket kicks in at £46k and it’s 40%. Check your after-tax salary before you state salary expectations and then just learn not to look at how much you are giving to HMRC. On the bright side, unless you have more than one job or are self employed, payroll at your job will handle all your UK tax stuff. (As an American, though, you will still be on the hook for Uncle Sam’s taxes. Hire an accountant.)
      – pensions: your employer will sort out your pension and give you a pile of forms to fill in. They are legally obliged to set one up for you, and there are minimum contributions for you and your employer. Most pension funds also have a pretty clear website that will walk you through the whole process. If you want to save privately outside your company pension, you want an ISA (similar to a 401k but a bit more flexible)
      – social security is called national insurance and you need a national insurance number in order to work, but you need a job offer in order to apply for one. Head over to gov.uk for details on how to apply (your HR dept might be able to help if they do lots of international hires)
      – banking: you’ll need a whole passel of paperwork to get a bank account. Again, if your company hires expats a lot, they’ll have someone in HR or payroll who can talk you through it and sometimes they’ll have an arrangement with the company’s bank that makes it easier (basically your employer vouches for you, which lets you streamline the paperwork), but if not, you’ll need your offer letter or contract, proof of where you’re living (a letting agreement or utility bills with your name on them), your passport and at least two forms of other ID (drivers license, your national insurance card, something from an internationally known bank) and plenty of patience. Lloyds doesn’t offer great accounts, but they do handle lots of expats, or HSBC is also usually open-minded and expat friendly.

      I’m sure there’s stuff I’m missing, so if you have specific questions, reply and I’ll try to remember to check back.

      1. Bagpuss*

        Just to clarify on the tax front, the 40% only kicks in for the proportion of your income which over £50,000.
        You pay no tax on the first £12,500 (unless you earn over £100,000), then 20% on £12,500 – £50,000 and 40% over that.( So if you were earning £60,000 you’d pay about £11,500, or around 19%, in tax)

        Your employer is required to verify your ID and that you are entitled to work in the UK so you will be asked for your visa etc.

        How much information you need to give about why you are off sick varies hugely from one place to another – bear in mind that mostly what your employer needs to know is how long you are likely to off for, rather than an exhaustive list of symptoms!

        1. Jules the First*

          I mention the tax thing because most north americans are not used to the extra stuff that gets added onto our taxes in the UK. On £60k you may only pay £11k in tax, but there’s a further £5k in NI and other non-tax taxes.

          If you make upwards of the £46k or so that puts you in a higher tax bracket, your take home pay will be about 70% of your gross. The typical US employee on the same number will take home closer to 80%. My US family and friends are continually amazed by how much less my net is than they expect based on my headline number.

          2. Bagpuss*

            The higher tax bracket doesn’t kick in until you earn oncer £50K, not £46K.

            I’m not sure what the ‘other non-tax taxes’ you mention would be – NI, as you say, would be around £5K so take home pay would be around £43K, so you’d have a total effective rate of around 26%
            I had a wuick look or comparison at a couple of US calculators and while of course it is more complicated as it varies from State to State, it looks as though in most places the equivalent after income tax would be 25-29%, but presumably you then have health insurance on top.

            Looking at someone earning closer to £30,000 they would have an effective tax rate of 20% here in the UK (if you include NI) and between 18% and 22% in the USA, depending on which State they are in.

            So it might feel high if you are not used to it , or the way the figures are presented, but it doesn’t actually seem to be higher, just collected in a different way .

            My understanding is that in the USA most people have to file their own x returns so you might get more in your take home pay, but then have to save some of that to pay your tax bill?

            Either way, it’s useful for Ra94 to know that the system is different. Ra94, there are various free calculators you can find online, where you can input your gross pay and see what you will actually take home.

            My understnading is that you will pay £400 per year as part of your visa appliation (so if your visa allows you to live her e for 5 years you would pay £2,000 up front) as a surcharge for the NSH, but you then access it for free like eveyone else, so there are no ongoing extra costs over and above what a UK citizen would pay here.

    6. Bagpuss*

      Contracts – Your contract of employment will normally have the key things in it such as your job title,starting salary, entitlements for holiday and sick leave and your notice period. For a law firm there may well also be a non-compete clause and confidentiality clauses, and you may find that there are also provisions about repaying any training costs if you leave within a certain period. Notice periods will be dependent on the role but 3 months is pretty standard for professional roles, 1 month for support roles. The periods may be shorter and/or asymmetrical during any probation period.
      More detailed terms will usually be in an employee handbook rather than your contract. Changes such as pay increases don’t normally result in a new contract being issued, you’d typically get a letter to confirm any changes and then the change is deemed to be incorporated into the contract.

      On the social / cultural front, I think it is worth being wary of comments like the one about endless cups of tea – yes, we do like our tea, but there is a definite difference between self-deprecating comments / humour and someone from ‘outside’ making similar comments – so for instance, a comment about having acclimatised and developed a tea-drinking habit would likely go down better than comments about English offices running on tea, because you’d be laughing at yourself, not others!

      Good luck with your new job.

  140. Tired tired law student*

    How much should I take my potential boss’s views into account when job searching?

    I’m currently a 3L law student, looking at places I want to work when I graduate (too soon!), and there’s a firm I interned with in my home city that’s doing the work I want to do. It’s only 4 people right now, which means that I’d be directly working with the founder daily. When interning, I didn’t have any personal conflicts with the founder; he was easy enough to work with on a day to day basis. We didn’t really talk about anything outside of the work.

    However, the founder is a proud member of a conservative Christian legal organization that’s working in our state to remove sexual orientation anti-discrimination protection. From what I can tell, he agrees with their mission and I don’t think he’s the type to say “I won’t discriminate but I support other people’s right to do so”. If he’s supporting the removal of employment protections, he’d probably discriminate in the workplace. I’m transgender. I didn’t come out at my internship, because it was a short summer and I didn’t want to risk it, but I can’t spend my life in the closet.

    Should I still consider this a good place to apply for work? How much should I weigh this when I’m comparing my options? Applications for fellowships and other positions are coming up in August and September, and trying to figure out how my gender will affect where I can work is overwhelming.

    1. Me*

      Oh only you can answer this one I’m afraid. How long is the internship? Can you live with a few more months in the closet? Working daily with someone means you see and hear a lot more of them. What would happen if the founder made disparaging remarks or worse? How would you react? Would you be able to respond in a way that you’d be happy with or would you be concerned you have to play along?

      If it was me, which you’re not, I would explore other options where I don’t find the founder to have repugnant morals. I’m not transgender so the best I can imagine in my life would be working for someone I know to be a misogynist and member anti-feminism group or a boss that affiliated with a white power group. That’s me. And don’t think either that what’s right for me means I would think you’re wrong for taking another path. The only right decision for you is the one you decide on.

    2. animaniactoo*

      I think that you should heavily weigh what your daily working environment is likely to be and how well you will be able to operate and carry out the work you enjoy in that environment.

      I’m sorry. It sucks. Some people are up for the struggle and toughing it out and some aren’t. It is perfectly fine to be one of the ones who isn’t and go find a place where you won’t have to deal with that kind of negativity towards who you are. At least, not so blatantly as it sounds like is probable at this place.

        1. valentine*

          I could never work for this person. I’d struggle to even have a colleague like that.

      2. Tired tired law student*

        Thank you for the Esq. assessment! I’m always nervous that law is such a conservative profession that I’m expecting too much when I’m making employment decisions. I’m glad to hear someone else thinks I can find better work than this.

        1. Lumen*

          Not to mention: “that’s just the way it is” is a terrible answer. If “the way it is” is discriminatory, then shrugging it off isn’t the way forward. We need to change “the way it is” and sometimes that means not bucking up and dealing with it when things aren’t okay.

          1. Tired tired law student*

            True! I’m looking forward to the day when I’m doing my work and I don’t have to deal with discrimination and hide how that affects me. The way it is isn’t the way it has to be.

            1. Lumen*

              Well for what it’s worth someone out here in internetland from another letter in the QUILTBAG is pulling for you. You deserve to live and work in peace and be appreciated.

              *goes to print THE WAY IT IS ISN’T THE WAY IT HAS TO BE on a bunch of t-shirts*

        2. Glomarization, Esq.*

          Now that I’ve let this letter kind of percolate in my mind overnight, I’d like to add a few more thoughts.

          Your first year in practice is stressful to begin with: you’re tossed into the deep end of hands-on work after spending 3 years arguing how many angels can dance on the head of a pin, and only a couple of clinics, maybe, where you did “real” work. But now you would add on having a boss with a deeply-held animus against you? Someone who literally puts his money into trying to make sure that one day he can fire you just because you’re gender-nonconforming? (With Altitude Express Inc. v. Zarda on track to be decided by June, 2020, we’re very close to seeing the end of Price Waterhouse v. Hopkins.) Consider instead that you have a valuable piece of information about this guy and his firm that will help your decisionmaking now and will be a warning flag for yourself if/when you meet him again professionally.

          Also remember what work is: you are trading your time and skill for money. You get money; the firm uses your work product to win cases, advance its reputation, and make a profit. The boss spends that profit wherever he wants. Why would you let someone transform your work product into donations to anti-LGBTQ initiatives? Of course this can become a slippery slope down into a purity test for your employer, or it can get really attenuated (“I work for a contractor who works for a contractor that produces drywall that is re-sold to people who build facilities where they remotely operate drone bombers” kind of thing). But honestly I think your situation presents a pretty low bar.

          Another thought is that I’d advise you to join your local bar association’s LGBTQ section/committee, for social reasons or networking or both. There’s the National Lawyers Guild, too, with its Queer Caucus.

          Finally: don’t burn a bridge. Just decline any job offer from this firm politely and professionally. Commenters here can get very witty with their staircase remarks but personally I’ve never, ever regretted being the “better” person when it comes to situations where I could have chosen to drop some kind of truthbomb instead.

    4. Ra94*

      I wouldn’t work for this law firm. For me, it would be a matter of my personal beliefs, and for you, I worry you’d run the risk of discrimination. Even if you don’t come out, the boss sounds like someone who might discriminate against you for not dressing according to strict gender norms, or for ‘seeming’ like a liberal, or any number of reasons. In a tiny organization, he’ll have way too much power over your life.

      If he has a public reputation for promoting bigoted views, which it sounds like he does, that could also end up reflecting poorly on you when you try to find a job elsewhere. It also seems unlikely this job would bring you opportunities to network with tolerant professionals, who the boss might look down upon.

      1. Tired tired law student*

        That’s a good point about networking that I hadn’t thought about. I want to make sure that I’m meeting legal professionals that wouldn’t discriminate against me, so even roughing it out here for a few years might make finding better work less possible. I might be able to handle it short term but I need to think about it as a stepping stone as well.

        I was feeling down about the possibility of getting an affirming job but even a neutral job would serve me better than an actively disaffirming environment where one boss has the power to control who I’m really interacting with.

        1. Seven hobbits are highly effective, people*

          Yeah, some place where they’re just…poorly informed and assertively clueless can be survivable, but “I am actively advocating against you having the same rights as other people” seems like a lot to be dealing with while trying to build your career.

          I’d also be worried about what kind of reference this person might be for future work if they find out that you’re transgender, so it would be better to get this boss as far into “old business” on your resume as possible so you have other, fresher, less-hateful references to use while building your career. (I’d be particularly worried about him insinuating some vague “dark secret” about you in networking situations/reference checks after he found out, since if he specifically explained his complaint about you he’d probably get pushback from non-bigots, but vague complaints about “creepy people” can have legs that might derail jobs at firms not run by bigots.)

          1. Clisby*

            I’m not a lawyer, so take my opinion with a huge grain of salt. I’d try to work somewhere else. Not just for your own comfort – for how this job might look to the kinds of law firms you’d ultimately want to work for.

  141. Secret Agent Man*

    How the heck do you guys manage to go through the job search process while holding onto your current one? I don’t really get lunches or private time to myself (we’re kind of forced to eat lunch and hangout together as a group because this is supposed to be a “tightly-knit family”) so I can rarely find the time to answer back to voicemails from recruiters or interviewers.

    Could I write in my cover letter that I would appreciate communication via email rather than phone? Or create a voicemail message going “hello, sorry for not getting your call but if this is urgent please send me an email” maybe? It also doesn’t help that I have hearing difficulties so I can’t always clearly make out the voicemails ugh. I would really appreciate any tips…

    1. Buttons*

      You can certainly say your preferred method of contact is email. You can phrase it like “Due to my current position the best way to reach me is through email at …”

      1. Seeking Second Childhood*

        A friend used “I can receive & return calls outside 8am – 5pm, so the fastest way to reach me is often by email and text.” If they fuss, she explains we’re in an open office.

    2. alphabet soup*

      Recruiters and hiring managers usually understand that you’re currently working and need to be discrete. Most use email as the first method of contact for that reason. But for the odd person who reaches out via phone first, I think it’s totally fine to let it go to voicemail and return the call later the same day or even the next. When I worked some place that was super strict, I was able to handle calls by taking a late lunch under the guise of running an errand. Would it be totally conspicuous to occasionally excuse yourself from team lunches to do an errand?

      Also, regarding difficulty hearing voicemail, a speech to text service may help. For example, I use Google Voice as my work number. Anytime I get a voicemail, it texts and emails me a transcript so I rarely have to actually listen to the message. They’re usually pretty accurate.

  142. Anon for This*

    Weirdness on the new job!

    Our team is structured such that we all report up to a Director, but we work on projects headed by Sr Managers. Three of us are new hires in a location remote from Corporate HQ. Our [45-year old, married, male, father of two teenage daughters] Director is at Corporate. He visited our location this week and it became VERRRRRYYYYYY obvious that he has the hots for one of my co-new hires, Beverly. She’s 22, comes from a sheltered family and a culture where women, in general, are sheltered. And she is eating up his attention like it’s manna from heaven.

    So far, there’s nothing actionable. But it’s so, so, so awkward for me and the third new hire. Director goes from beaming and smiling and laughing when talking to Beverly, to frowning or outright scowling when either of us says anything.

    Also, Director and I both got into the office early on the 2nd day of his visit so I tried to make small talk:

    Me: “Does the hotel you’re staying at have breakfast?”
    Him: “No. [pause] Are you a breakfast person?”
    Me: “Yes, I try not to eat after 5:00 PM so I’m starving by the time breakfast rolls around.”
    Him: [gets a faraway look in his eyes] “Beverly doesn’t eat breakfast.”
    Me:

    It was so weird!! And everything she said she liked/disliked, he magically liked/disliked all the same things! [Despite having told me when I first met him that he, for instance, wasn’t a tea drinker. But since Beverly loves tea, so does he!!]

    Beverly is still in college and seems to (a) understand what’s going on, and (b) be happy to flirt back since it will likely mean raises and promotions for her. I’m squicked out by the whole thing, but I know my life would become a living hell if I said anything to anyone above him. Our boss, a VP, hand-picked him and she has let it be known that she stands behind any and all decisions he makes.

    So I guess I’m just looking for commiseration or similar stories. And I’m grateful that I don’t have to work directly with him, and that our Sr Managers will have a lot of input during performance review time (which might override his infatuation a bit if he has to explain to the VP why the junior-most person is getting the lions-share of raises and bonuses, despite the feedback from the Sr Managers).

    Also, I’m going anon for this because I recently told Beverly about this site and I don’t want her to be able to pair this post with my usual AAM moniker if she decides to start reading.

    1. JustSmile*

      Him: [gets a faraway look in his eyes] “Beverly doesn’t eat breakfast.”

      Ewww, that is so weird!!! He is the person of authority and should know better. I wish I could take Bev aside and ask her if she really is OK with his attention, and tell her “boys will be boys” and “women just have to put up with it” aren’t true!! I grew up in a time and place when women were taught to be nice, and that these things happened in the world. We were taught women just had to smile and take it- or it would make life and work harder. I wish I could talk to 20 yr old me and let her know that isn’t the case.
      If she is sheltered and inexperienced she may not know any other way to handle it but to reciprocate.
      Could you frame it that way with Beverly? “How do you find your relationship/interactions with Dir?” And go from there..

      1. Anon for This*

        She’s definitely OK with his attention. She keeps gushing about what a great guy and awesome manager he is. And she asked him about all of his likes (food, movies, music, vacation destinations, beverages, etc) as if she were on a first date. She’s not at all fake-smiling her way through something she finds uncomfortable.

        The only thing she may not know is that you shouldn’t flirt with your manager, even if he’s the one who started it.

        1. Ra94*

          I won’t question your judgment about whether she’s okay with it, but I think it’s still important that she knows that she doesn’t *have* to be okay with it. What if everything’s fine now, but he makes a physical move on her, she rejects him, and he starts acting like a jerk?

          1. valentine*

            She’s not at all fake-smiling her way through something she finds uncomfortable.
            You don’t know this and it’s better than if she’s secretly dying inside because everyone else condones his gross behavior.

            I’d be looking to leave. Is there any hope in looping in a senior manager?

        2. JustSmile*

          She may not also be aware that her behavior and participation in it can have a negative impact on her career and reputation. If you can talk about it, it might help her. Like Ra94 said, she might be ok with it at this level, but if it were to escalate she might not know how to handle it, she could find herself in a situation where people think she was “asking for it” (UGGG!) because she participated this much. I remember what it was like being in my early 20s, working in a male-dominated industry and not really knowing how to navigate these situations.
          All that being said, it must be sooooo awkward watching this unfold.

          1. Ra94*

            Yeah, I unfortunately speak from experience- not professionally, thank God, but in my friend group. I was dumb and naive and enjoyed flirting with a male friend because he had a girlfriend and ‘nothing could ever happen’. Then when he assaulted me, everyone saw it as a regretful encounter, because I’d clearly been ‘so into him’.

            1. valentine*

              She may not also be aware that her behavior and participation in it can have a negative impact on her career and reputation. If you can talk about it, it might help her.
              “I’m not going to report this scumbag, but watch out for the victim blaming”? No. This is also victim blaming.

    2. Rusty Shackelford*

      Him: [gets a faraway look in his eyes] “Beverly doesn’t eat breakfast.”

      What the WHAT?

  143. Ariana Grande's Ponytail*

    Follow up re: My boss reprimanded me for 40 minutes over a mistake

    I have been job searching for about 4-5 weeks now. Slow progress because there aren’t too many jobs for me to apply to in my field of interest/educational background where I live, but I’m making it work. Reached out to a connection through my network, so we’ll see if that pans out.

    More crazy stuff keeps happening at my job though. I don’t want to get into it here right now but I did want to express appreciation for the folks who encouraged me last time I posted about this that crying because of work was not normal, and neither is your boss standing over you for most of an hour, and neither is any of the stuff going on at work. I’m solidly in “these people will never respect me” territory now, mentally, and just trying to get going. More updates if anything changes/maybe some time I will feel more free to share the weird stuff going on here

    1. NicoleK*

      I’m so sorry. Unless your mistake lead to someone’s death or permanent disability, there’s no need for a 40 minute lecture.

  144. Emily B.*

    I frequently say “I’m happy to” in my work communication. Example: “I don’t think we discussed anything you’d want to comment on, but I’m happy to follow up with you in more detail if you’d like.”

    A previous coworker commented that “I’m happy to” always sounds sarcastic. That’s definitely not how I mean it–I just want to express that I’m suggesting something, but 100% accept if something wants to do something another way. Does it come across as sarcastic? If so, what can I say instead that’s pleasant and brief?

    1. merp*

      Ohhh I hope other people don’t see it that way, I say that as well. Obviously it depends on the tone but I can’t imagine a pleasant “happy to” statement being seen as sarcastic as the default? Interested in other opinions on this.

    2. AvonLady Barksdale*

      I don’t mind that at all! I use it myself, as in, “Happy to get on the phone and discuss if you’d like.” But if you’re now feeling self-conscious (sheesh, co-worker!), then you can try, “Let me know if you’d like to me to follow up in more detail,” or, “Let me know if you need any additional info from me.”

    3. Not an Exhibit at the Petting Zoo*

      It depends! Half the time I mean it, half the time I say “I’m happy to help with this but…” as a way of showing willing while still conveying that I’m not actually pleased to be asked.

      I think if you’re worried that it’s not coming across as sincere, you can just switch to “I don’t think we discussed anything you’d want to comment on, but we can discuss it in detail if you’d like”. Or if you want to seem more enthusiastic/effusive, “…we can absolutely discuss it in detail”. Just make the offer without saying you feel any kind of way about it, y’know?

      1. Rusty Shackelford*

        Yeah, I think it can be used both ways. I think a full stop, with no “but” or “if” or qualifier, doesn’t project sarcasm at all.

        “I’d be happy to help you with that.” – what it says on the tin
        “I’d be happy to help with that, but it means I won’t be able to finish the Sucracorp project” – I am not actually happy at all

    4. A Simple Narwhal*

      Oh geez I don’t think it’s sarcastic at all, or at least I hope not, because I totally use that too!

      Unless the commentariat say otherwise, I might take your coworker’s opinion with a grain of salt. I used to have a coworker who insisted on ending emails with ellipses (“thanks for sending that over…” , “yes we can accommodate your request…” , “I like your suggestion…”), so there’s definitely a rich tapestry of people and opinions out there.

    5. Autumnheart*

      I feel like this is one of those phrases (“Good for you!” comes to mind) where people use it ironically so much that it becomes tainted with a connotation of irony, even when it’s said sincerely.

      Maybe mix it up a bit with “Please feel free to follow up with me if you need more detail,” or “You’re welcome to follow up with me,” or “we can certainly follow up on this at your convenience if you’d like,” and so forth. Just so people get used to seeing the sentiment expressed multiple ways.

    6. Arts Akimbo*

      I think your coworker is being weird. Unless your tone is super-snide when you say it, “I’m happy to” sounds fine.

  145. alphabet soup*

    TLDR: A recent work situation has me wondering: what are some guidelines on when to approach HR and/or a grandboss about your manager?

    Long-version: I recently left a job because of my boss’ poor management skills. We worked together for two years, and what started out as fairly minor annoyances and frustrations on my part built up over that time. Things finally escalated when, during a complex (and expensive and time-sensitive) project that he was grandly messing up, he got frustrated with me and a teammate and took it out on both of us during a meeting by standing up and shouting over us. It was a pretty intense, because he’s older and a large guy, and me and my teammate are younger women– we were both pretty scared. HR had to get involved, my teammate felt unsafe working with him and left the company, I inherited the difficult project by default and spent weeks cleaning up my boss’ mistakes before I found a better job and left (thank goodness).

    My question comes in because at my exit interview, HR asked me if I quit because of that incident and I told them, yes, absolutely, you bet. Then I started going into detail about some of the issues I’d had over the past couple of years, and they looked genuinely shocked. They asked me (not unkindly) why I hadn’t said anything to HR before now, and why I hadn’t ever gone to my grandboss to talk about my concerns over the years.

    It’s been a few weeks since I left, but that question is kind of haunting me, because I don’t know why I didn’t speak up or even if I really was supposed to. I guess I didn’t want to get in trouble by going over my boss’ head, and I’ve always just assumed that unless your boss is doing something illegal that you shouldn’t complain about him to higher-ups, because you risk making yourself look bad. Also, I had zero interactions with my grandboss. He was a c-suite exec so there was no reason for us to have a working relationship at all.

    So, I ask the commentariat, what are your thoughts/opinions/guidelines on how you determine when to talk a higher-up about concerns?

    1. Alphabet Pony*

      If my boss was doing something illegal I would absolutely report it, but I work for a charity and have access to an independent whistleblowing line.

      This sounds like a dumpster fire. I hope things improve for you from here!

      1. alphabet soup*

        Thank you, fellow abecedarian! “Dumpster fire” perfectly describes it. My new job is a huge improvement, so this worked out okay for me. Just want to learn what I can from this experience so I can be more aware and proactive in future jobs.

        Is it common for charities to have whistleblowing lines? This is something I hadn’t heard of before, but it sounds like it would be a good to have for all industries.

        1. Alphabet Pony*

          I have no idea if it’s common. We got ours after some recent scandals at other charities reflected badly on the sector as a whole.

        2. voyager1*

          You need to look at this from HR’s point of view. They wanted to know about it from a risk to the company, not from a perspective of keeping you safe. After all I bet the guy is still working there right?

          You didn’t do anything wrong.

          1. alphabet soup*

            Oh, I know. I guess I’m less concerned about what I did wrong and more concerned about how to strategically navigate difficult situations so that I don’t have to leave my job every time I encounter a bully/jerk boss. Because IME there are an alarming amount of those out there.

        3. Seven hobbits are highly effective, people*

          The non-profit I work with doesn’t have a whistleblowing line (we’re not bing on phone numbers in general), but does have an ombudsman’s office with an email address that you can contact if there are problems and you don’t feel comfortable working within your management structure on those problems. I have no idea how common that structure is.

    2. Arts Akimbo*

      I think you answered your own question– you were a young woman when this happened, and probably relatively inexperienced at handling workplace crises like what to do if your boss is a jerk. Don’t beat yourself up over the past. Do document and report bad behavior immediately if you find yourself in another dumpster fire.

  146. Minfillia*

    Could I please get some thoughts and advice on what to do moving forward career-wise?

    It’s only been a few years since I got my bachelors and I’ve been plagued by worsening mental health issues for the past year, which caused me to resign from my last position. I’ve previously been working in healthcare and realized that it was worsening my own health.

    So for the past few months, I’ve been thinking about what type of position to look out and apply to. I am attracted to the idea of working a normal admin/desk job where I handle documents and help with projects. But every entry level office job seems to be a receptionist type of role, which I would be horrible with my anxiety issues. Is there another type of role I should look for? So far, I’ve been using keywords like “entry office” “admin assistant”.

    1. Buttons*

      I am glad you recognized your job was negatively impacted your health and were able to make some changes.
      I would search for jobs with “coordinator” in the title. Coordinator jobs will often have more project style work associated with them and not just admin work. Good luck!

      1. Grace Less*

        Seconding this! Depending on your region, many government agencies are hiring coordinators to handle regulatory paperwork, work in grants, etc., as so much infrastructure built after WWII reaches the end of its useful life and has to be rehabbed or replaced.

    2. Me*

      Administrative assistants tend to be higher level and are not entry – they require a few years of experience. Also in every admin position I have worked, while I may not have reception duties – I was interacting/managing A LOT of internal and external people.

      How do you feel about data entry? They tend to be entry level, and not super high pay, but you tend not to interact with people so much? Analyst, project/program assistance can be a key words that might get you some options that help you find things in your wheelhouse.

      What was your degree in?

      1. Minfillia*

        I got a Biology degree! I have tried light data entry tasks with basic analysis and enjoyed the monotony/stability but I worried about being stuck without any chances of upwards mobility. Analyst seems like a great role but I lack the statistics and programming skills, from what I’ve seen in the job listing requirements unfortunately.

        And I’m OK with interacting with staff and team members but the idea of talking to strangers gives me some anxiety, especially since I have some difficulty with hearing via the phone.

        1. Buttons*

          If you have worked in the medical field and have a strong science background a research coordinator might also fit your skills.

    3. NicoleK*

      Since you have experience in health care, check out the health plans in your area. Health plans have plenty of administrative positions without receptionist responsibilities.

    4. Seven hobbits are highly effective, people*

      This might be a good situation for a temp agency. I am great at filing/photocopying/data entry type stuff, but am a disaster on phones. I would tell temp agencies that up front during the intake interview, and I’m sure it cost me a lot of “fill in for the receptionist” placements (that I would have been terrible at), but I got several jobs dealing with filing and photocopying instead as a possible foot in the door.

      (I got those jobs working in mortgages for a well-known dumpster fire of a bank, and I decided that I wanted my foot back out of that door as quickly as possible, but I’m sure I could have worked my way up to other non-phone-focused jobs had I wanted to. I’m a numbers/programming/technical type, though, so there were lots of tasks within a bank for someone making temp filing person money but who actually could look things up in the mainframe using the command line and calculate complicated financial things accurately.)

  147. Glen Coco*

    How do you know if someone sees you as the “B**** Eating Crackers” and…what do you do about it if they do???

    I have been working with this person for 2 years. For my first year I assisted her team occasionally and everything was fine. Last year I became a core member of her team and now it seems that everything I do or say annoys her. She’s friendly with everyone else but very cold with me. I get one word answers, eye rolls and annoyed, confused looks most of the time when I need to speak with her. I work hard and help out in any way that I can but I feel like I can’t win here. Meanwhile she’s great friends with our other team member who seems to show up and leave whenever she likes (we work set shifts), take extended breaks, and talk on her cell phone constantly. It’s emotionally exhausting by the end of the week to be stuck working one-on-one with someone who doesn’t seem to want you there.

    1. animaniactoo*

      This is going to sound strange but… stop trying so hard. A lot of times, that can be counterproductive. BTDT, got a few T-shirts.

      You can also try asking directly: “I often get the impression that I annoy the crap out of you. I’m not sure if that’s just me, but is there something I’m doing or have done that’s annoying you?”

      1. valentine*

        I wouldn’t ask if it’ll upset you, especially if you might cry. (I’m a crier.)

        Is it possible she sees you as a threat? Are you a better or more favored employee? If this were the beer-Fridays group, would you be the Rising Star? Could someone be playing you against each other?

    2. Me*

      Ask her. Seriously.

      “Jane, I can’t help but notice you often seem annoyed or exhasperated when having to deal with me. It’s important to me to have a good working relationship with you, so I’d like to talk about what seems to be the problem so that I can try to adjust.”

    3. Lumen*

      I’d step back and question how much it matters if this person likes you. Do they have any authority over you at work? Do they have particular influence with your supervisor? Are they involved in your performance review or approving your time off?

      And if the answer is no, put your energy into focusing on other things. Tasks at work, other relationships, and so on. Stop trying so hard to win this person over and they might actually eventually get bored with making you miserable by being a petty jerk all the time.

    4. Anne (with an “e”)*

      Some people are just mean. It’s a “them” problem, not a “you” problem. I realize that it can be very demoralizing and, so much yes “emotionally exhausting” to have to spend time with someone who doesn’t seem to like you. Just their vibe and body language can sometimes shout their dislike and irritation. The atmosphere in the room can feel like sitting next to a Dementor.

      Here’s the thing, you cannot change people like that. You cannot get people like that to suddenly start liking you, or to stop being annoyed by you. The only person you have control over is yourself. So, continue to be professional in your interactions with this person. Try, and I absolutely understand that this part is extremely difficult, but try your best to not care that this person is irritated or annoyed. The way they are are treating *you* by giving one word answers, eye rolls, etc. is very immature and unprofessional. This person reminds me of a stereotypical “mean girl” from middle school (and I should know because I teach middle and high school). Try to not let this person get to you. Or, failing that, try to give the appearance that she is not getting to you. I bet this is a power trip for her. Attempt not to feed into that. I would not in any way, shape, or form single to her by word or deed that you are trying to appease her or try to get into her good graces. Because, I don’t think it’s ever going to happen.

      You take the high road and try not to feed her power trip. Best wishes. I truly hope you find a way to mentally separate from her.

    5. NicoleK*

      Yes, sounds like she does see you as the BEC. I would have to agree with the other posters. Option 1: Keep things civil and professional, but stop going out of your way to help her. Option 2: address it with her.

      My annoying coworker is my BEC. And unless it’s work related, I really don’t want to hear about her anxieties, insecurities, issues with her children, her routines, her new favorite protein drink, her commute, and etc.

  148. Mannheim Steamroller*

    The Senior VP of our department waited until just now to call a meeting for 4:30… on a summer Friday!! Could it possibly have to do with the impending agency reorganization that we’ve heard so much (yet so little) about?

    Plus, he added “Attendance is NOT mandatory” at the bottom of the meeting announcement. We’re all wondering just how “not mandatory” it really is. Will absentees go to the top of the layoff list?

    1. Lumen*

      My advice is to go, better safe than sorry.

      But for the love of god, can bosses start *telling people the agenda* instead of just dragging them into terrifying SURPRISE meetings?

    2. Mannheim Steamroller*

      Already an update…

      The 4:30 meeting is canceled. Of course, all of us are still wondering just how scared we should be.

    3. merp*

      Not at all a real suggestion, but it would make quite a statement if every single attendee decided it was not mandatory to them.

    4. Daniela*

      We just had one of those yesterday. Turned out to be a minor update on a temporary grandboss and some very positive changes for the company over the next five years. For some reason, our immediate boss doesn’t understand that those types of meeting invites w/o details induce anxiety. :-/

  149. Instilling boundaries?*

    Suggestions on negotiating when the work and family boundaries get crossed?
    I have a part time job working for someone who also knows – and has befriended – some of my family members. One such family member (FM) talks a good line but behaves poorly. FM has told my boss how much s/he wishes we had a better family relationship. Boss has decided that she needs to encourage me to make that happen, because “family is everything.” She is trying to be helpful, but Boss is out of bounds, clearly, but right now I want to keep this job.

    I’ve said that I’m sure FM does want a better relationship, & that I do, too. That doesn’t quite satisfy Boss. FM has just behaved poorly again. Poorly as in the emergency cash stash disappearing, complaining that huge favors aren’t eagerly done, smoking in the smoke free house because FM is sure we “can’t actually smell it”, etc etc. I don’t really want to describe any of this to Boss. And I don’t want Boss to keep nudging me about working to improve my relationship with FM. And I don’t want to stain the friendship between Boss & FM.

    Suggestions for shutting down this topic with Boss?

    1. Lumen*

      You absolutely should not be talking to your boss about your family relationship. FM and Boss are both being weird and boundary-crossing about this, and it’s putting you on the defensive, where you feel like you have to explain your home life *at work* in order to keep your job. That’s beyond the pale of Not Okay, and an actually helpful person would understand that this behavior is not appropriate. And it’s so much harder to shut down because it sounds like FM is encouraging it with Boss.

      Next time Boss sticks their nose in to ‘be helpful’, maybe try “Yup, we’re working on it at home. About that Johnson account…” (the good old Acknowledge That They Have Spoken + Subject Change To An Appropriate Topic tactic)

      Normally I’d recommend telling your Boss that you don’t want to discuss your home life at work like this, but with FM involving them anyway, I don’t want that to end up creating a situation where it’s FM + Boss vs You.

      I’m really sorry this is happening, it’s not fair. I would suggest looking for another job anyway, even casually; the longer this goes on the worse it will get, I think.

    2. Dr. Anonymous*

      Just say, “it’s just so weird to be talking about Cousin It while I’m at work. I don’t want you to feel you have to be in the middle of my family life.”

      1. valentine*

        And when they insist it’s no trouble, you double down: “Oh, no, I couldn’t possibly!” or “This is my fam-free zone.” If they then say they are sad because they thought they were your family, that is when you run. Relative is deputizing and triangulating boss against you.

        It sounds like you live with this relative, which makes this tougher. If not, I recommend distance and cutting off the grapevine because knowing about their transgressions, especially the crime, especially if no one is kicking them out or cutting them off for it, doesn’t serve you.

    3. Mellow*

      Beyond nauseating.

      From what you describe this sounds like one of those situations where you ultimately have two choices forced on you, which makes this whole thing supremely unfair:

      Stay and learn to adapt, or go elsewhere. Outside of an unforeseen health situation or something similar for your FM or boss, it’s likely nothing will change.

      Sucks.

  150. KinsleyMac*

    Definitely late today so I hope someone can help!

    I’m in HR at a law firm on an executive track (company is paying for an executive coach and training etc with the eventual goal to take over the CHRO position on the C-Suite. This is a 5-7 year plan). Will be promoted this fall to another step on my path and hiring additional members to my team. I hold an MBA plus both the PHR and SHRM-SCP certifications. Basically, I’m well educated, trained, have over a decade of experience, etc etc…

    This might seem like a petty complaint, but I have issues with some of the lawyers, all men, calling me by a shortened, cutesy version of my name. Think Em or Emmy instead of Emily.

    It feels infantilizing. It is not my name. I do not go by it. I didn’t even when I was child. I’ve specifically corrected them on every occasion, but it continues to happen. Is there anything else I can do?

    1. Me*

      Try – You know John, you keep calling me Emmy despite my preference for being called Emily. Please call me Emily.

    2. Lumen*

      You’ve already been correcting them in the moment, which is the right thing to do. I think it’s time to start saying “I’ve asked you to call me Emily. Not Em.” It doesn’t have to be aggressive or overly firm right off the bat, just like you’re giving them a more pointed reminder and also reiterating that *they’ve been told this already*.

      And if it keeps going from there, start gradually increasing your reaction. “No thank you, my name is Emily.” or “Please stop shortening my name, I prefer Emily.” or “Joe. We’ve talked about this. I don’t like nicknames. Call me Emily.”

      No need to list your accomplishments or even explain to them why this isn’t okay. Calling people by their preferred name and not insisting on calling them names they’ve specifically asked you not to use is basic courtesy and that should be enough (it clearly isn’t, but it’s good for you to remember that you’re not asking for the moon here and they’re the ones being weird about it).

    3. Mannheim Steamroller*

      Feel free to totally ignore “Em” and anything else that isn’t your actual name. If they can’t understand four simple words (“My name is Emily”), that is their problem and not yours.

      1. Carquals 153 Niner 2*

        +100. I’d be like “Who is this Em you speak of?” “When did we hire an Emmy?”

      2. Mellow*

        What Mannheim Steamroller said.

        Ignore it, and only respond when they refer to you as Emily.

        They know what they’re doing. Don’t let them get away with it.

    4. Alice*

      It’s not petty to want people to call you by your preferred name — but at the same time, I think it’s at least equally likely that they are forgetful, not that they are calling you by the nickname on purpose.
      And whatever the real reason is, your life is going to be more pleasant if you can persuade yourself that “Bob has this funny quirk where he never remembers my preferred name, so I have to remind him frequently” as opposed to “Bob intentionally calls me by an infantilizing nickname because he doesn’t respect me.”

      1. Mannheim Steamroller*

        The two or three times, he’s being forgetful. After constant reminders, it’s deliberate.

    5. Carquals 153 Niner 2*

      Ask them, “Why do you call me Em or Emmy when my name is Emily?” Perhaps that will force them to recognize their actions, whether it’s purposeful or forgetful.

      “Oh don’t you like Em? I thought it was ok.”
      “No. I’ve corrected you several times and either you’re ignoring me or are forgetful. I need you to call me Emily.”

      “What’s the big deal?”
      “It matters to me. I’m Emily and have been since birth. I need you to call me Emily.”

      It matters when your name is misspelled, mispronounced, or simply ignored or forgotten. It’s who you are and people who are purposeful need to be corrected and reinforced in their negative behaviors and those who are forgetful need to up their skills.

      1. Clisby*

        This is so weird to me. Why would you call someone by a name they don’t use? If someone introduced himself to me as William Smith, it wouldn’t occur to me to start calling him Billy. Or even Will.

        1. Carquals 153 Niner 2*

          Exactly. it was one of the first things that my parents taught me when it came to meeting adults; call an adult Mr or Mrs until they say it’s okay to use their first name. That translated in the workplace to ‘call somebody their name they introduce themselves with until they tell you otherwise.’

          I don’t even suggest to ask if there are nickname options because they wanted to be caught by called by nickname they would say it.

          1. Mellow*

            I agree with that – referring to people the same way from the first time until I’m told otherwise – but what’s frustrating are those who act impatient about that, e.g. incredulous frown/slight smile followed by “Oh, come on, it’s Mary.” As though I knew that was okay.

    6. Glomarization, Esq.*

      It is not a petty complaint. Your name is your name. I have a name that a lot of women shorten for themselves, but I don’t shorten it. When it comes up, I go with:

      – “Nicola, thanks. I don’t go by ‘Nikki.'”
      – “It’s Nicola, not ‘Nikki.'”
      – “I’m sorry [NOTE: I am not actually sorry, this is just to interrupt the speaker and call their attention to what follows]. Nicola. I’ve never used ‘Nikki.'”

      Every single time. You deserve the baseline respect from the other adults in the office to use the name you prefer to be called.

    7. Pennalynn Lott*

      The first few times, I have followed the suggestions given by people here (ever-sterner reminders). Then I start calling them by a cutesy nickname. “I’m having a great day, Johnny, thanks for asking!” “Hey, there, Petey, how’s your morning?”

      But I’m kind of a smartass.

      (I also reply to emails where my name has been misspelled by misspelling *their* name in a similar manner. Like, if Michael has left out an N in my name, I’ll reply with “Micael.” But only after I’ve reminded them of the spelling of my name several times and they continue to misspell it.)

      1. Pippa*

        Add it to your harrassment training as an example of gendered misbehavior. This is especially troubling misbehavior when it plays out on more junior staff. You have agency to respond. Your staff does not. Keep pushing back. Because the misbehavior you are experiencing at your level of power is a small fraction of what your staff feels.
        This is not about your name. It’s about Respect.

  151. EJane*

    I could use some advice when it comes to boundaries in small businesses.

    I work for a small (~15 people) business in a small town. The company is run by a husband and wife, and kept afloat by the (unrelated to them) COO. He’s a very good manager–level-headed, understanding, results-oriented but patient and compassionate, takes a lot of classes to learn more about leadership–but we had an incident yesterday that raised the hair on the back of my neck.

    I’m in a quasi-leadership role; sort of team lead. I control scheduling for all of our technicians, so there are certain standards and policies in place to make sure I have the information I need when I need it. This requires reciprocal communication with each technician, which hasn’t been a problem, except for with Lester.

    Lester is a good guy, but nonconfrontational to the point of shutting down. I move and talk quickly and have been called intense frequently, though never rude, curt, or unkind with the technicians or our clients.

    Lester and I have butted heads over and over again over the last eight months. He misses appointments entirely or is late to them, I get the complaints from the clients and have to field them, he doesn’t communicate with me so it’s news to me, I get frustrated and start filtering what I assign him to avoid handing him anything high-priority, or start anticipating stonewalling when I go to talk to him about something–which he sees as a threat. so he stonewalls.
    Really awesome vicious cycle.

    This reached a fever pitch yesterday morning. I spoke to him the evening prior about a job that had been poorly handled while I was out, had never been scheduled despite promising a time to the client, and now we absolutely needed to get someone to a site–that requires 3 hours of driving round-trip.
    When I brought it up, he asked for a preliminary call with the client to pinpoint the issue. Point is, he and I had a long dialogue about this, and I followed up with him via Slack later on.

    Cut to yesterday morning. I’m running our very quick morning scheduling meeting, and I’m running down his calendar items. I get to the long-distance job, and he says (IN FRONT OF THE ENTIRE TECHNICAL STAFF) “I’m not going to do that.”
    I’m not proud of this, but my verbatim response was (while turning around slowly): “I’m sorry, what?” in a pretty cold voice.
    This cued a short, very tense conversation in the meeting, wherein I said “why didn’t you tell me this earlier” and “who is going to go, then?”, he talked about project work that he needed to finish (which he absolutely was aware of the night before), he stonewalled, and I moved on with the meeting.
    There were a lot of other extenuating factors that provide context for why I went from 0-10. The COO spoke to me, and then Lester, at length about this, and in the end, came to us separately and told us that the only way we were going to solve this was going to be to sit down in a room with each other (with the COO mediating) and be “brutally, soul-suckingly honest.”.

    This horrified me. Outside of the fact that I have a psychiatric disability, which affects every single challenge I face, and is not something I want to talk about with someone I don’t trust, I thought it was an overstep.
    I told the COO as much. I told him that it’s not management’s place to meddle in private relationships, that this was way too involved, that it was his responsibility as management to expect both of us to do our jobs and enforce that expectation. He pushed for it, and I acquiesced in the end, after an hour of patient listening to my concerns and pointing out why he thought it was the only option. (Anything else would be a bandaid fix, this is the only way to get to the root of the problem, etc.)

    So we had the conversation, I actually got something useful out of it–Lester much, MUCH prefers to be communicated with slowly, whereas I idle at 30mph. So I bring questions or asks to him, and give him five or ten minutes to think it over before I ask for his thoughts. Simple enough.

    This organization struggles with accountability. Lester has already been spoken to about his tardiness and lack of communication. I’m not privy to those conversations, so I don’t know if anything is being enforced. this company is very small and very close-knit, so interpersonal relationships are important, but outside of yesterday’s outburst, Lester and I are perfectly capable of being civil and working together. There are just critical communication breakdowns on his end, and he feels disrespected when I come to him and am talking quickly, with a lot of intense energy, and occasionally interrupt him. Every time we conflict, we find each other outside of work or send messages on slack with apologies.

    My question is this:
    What are your thoughts on how our COO handled this? Knowing that Lester and I, while tense with each other at times, were very civil, often friendly, with each other at work, but that this type of communication breakdown has happened four or five times over the last eight months, that he and I both have grievances we hadn’t aired with each other, and that the cycle was likely to repeat if drastic action wasn’t taken–but also knowing what reasonable small-business boundaries look like, and that it was affecting our ability to complete our work, but not our conduct or our coworkers…
    Am I right to feel that it was, while well-intentioned, an invasive thing to ask of us? The COO emphasized that he was not requiring this, but he was asking us to trust him. (you should also know that all three of us are very close in age, and the COO and I are friends outside of work, so I didn’t feel pressure from his authority.)

    My brain’s a mess. I barely know what to think about this.

    1. Alice*

      The potentially-invasive thing he was asking you to do was having a conversation with each other, mediated by him, to try and figure out how you two can communicate effectively?
      Personally I am not seeing this as invasive. Maybe, asking people to be “soul-suckingly honest” was not ideal — I’m not a fan of bringing my authentic self to work. But was he asking you to share information about your disability? I would have assumed he was asking you to share 100% of the relevant info about your communication style. But you know him better than me.
      I will also add that your response “i’m sorry, what?” was actually pretty reasonable, no matter how cold. The time to discuss whether Lester was going to do this job had already passed at this point. He sounds like a nightmare to work with — not because he prefers to communicate at a slower pace, but because he blows things off.

      1. valentine*

        EJane, you don’t have the whole high ground here.

        COO’s errors were using the phrase “soul-sucking honesty” and hassling you for an hour until you agreed to his plan. You seem happy to seek out and confront Lester (in his space?) even though it’s unproductive, so it’s not the confrontation you object to, but I don’t know what it is (COO’s presence? Would it have been better if he told you to to go in a room until you sorted it yourselves?) or how your disability affects it.

        outside of yesterday’s outburst, Lester and I are perfectly capable of being civil and working together.
        This surprises me. I guess he doesn’t refuse to work all the time? Did he do the six-plus-hour job? If not, who did? How do the other techs feel about him skiving and them doing what he won’t?

        There are just critical communication breakdowns on his end
        Both ends.

        and he feels disrespected when I come to him and am talking quickly, with a lot of intense energy, and occasionally interrupt him.
        Yeah, none of this is good. You might try emailing him about the issue and scheduling a meeting, unless he responds better in writing. What do you get out of talking quickly (Maybe he can’t process? Are you possibly raising your voice?), much less intensely, much less not even hearing him out? I get that you think he’s the only problem, but, even if he were, why wouldn’t you change your strategy? Why not ask COO or someone for help in getting the best from Lester? You want care around your disability and preferences, but haven’t extended the same to Lester.

        Every time we conflict, we find each other outside of work or send messages on slack with apologies.
        Here’s another pattern that needs to end. Why doesn’t he just do his work? Why apologize if you think you’re in the right, or, if you know you’re wrong, why not stop the hunting/rapid-fire confrontations?

        You were out of line to lecture the COO and accuse him of overstepping. He’ll decide where he steps? If others behave like this, you’re too enmeshed and I hope you’ll work in places where they wouldn’t even dream of this for a sitcom, where they would’ve fired Lester long ago and coached you on cordial communication with colleagues.

        1. EJane*

          You make really good points, and you’re right that the breakdown is on both ends. I wish I’d phrased a good bit of my original comment very differently, and focused on more relevant information instead of action recaps. I was worked up when I wrote my original question. Sigh.

          Thank you for the perspective on what our COO did. (For context, the COO and I are the same age—late 20s—and “COO” is what’s on his business card. I’m directly below him, if we had an org chart, and he and I had many, many conversations about how he wants honest, unfiltered feedback from me (and everyone else) at all times. It took about six months for me to believe him.)

          To answer your comment about confronting Lester, we have one open-plan main space, where all the technicians are, and then three offset offices, one of which is mine. I often pop into the main area to ask technicians questions. Face to face communication is the norm across the board, especially because 90% of the time there’s a client on hold who needs an answer quickly, and many technicians are amazingly terrible at checking slack.

          Also, crucial detail about the conversation with the COO that I left out for some stupid reason:
          Lester and I have had three or four come-to-Jesus conversations—both on our own and mediated—before. Each one seemed to work out, and then the cycle repeated, so clearly whatever he and I thought we were fixing wasn’t working. I’ve changed the way I approach Lester (I always ask
          him if he has a moment, instead of the usual “hey what are you working on right now” I ask of the other techs; I have been super super careful not to interrupt him for several months now, so him citing me interrupting him was total news to me; I pick my battles and don’t say anything to him when I suddenly have no idea where he is for two hours, because I know he’ll get upset and shut down where other techs would own it and explain.) When I brought this up to the COO, he replied with “you need to talk about why you don’t respect each other”.

          That was what made the hair on the back of my neck stand up. Mediated conversation about communication differences? Totally fine, I’m on board. A conversation that the COO actively expects to be emotional and distressing? Not totally fine. (That’s why I brought up the psych thing. Explained that poorly, too.)

          My opinions about my coworkers’ work habits are not my business to share, because I’m not their manager. (Yes, despite being directly above them in the org chart and despite the fact that I’m in charge of everyone’s schedules and have the final say on what they do. The issue of assigning me responsibility for others without any authority is another ongoing conversation.) I brought up to the COO that I had no desire to criticize Lester to his face, I didn’t want to tell Lester what I think he’s doing wrong, I didn’t think it was my place—and I wasn’t super keen on Lester doing the same to me. I felt so strongly about the conversation because in every other (healthy) place I’ve worked, concerns about coworkers are reported to management, and THEY decide what needs to be communicated and how. Management doesn’t stick two people with recurring communication issues in a room and invite them to air all their grievances and get emotional about it. (Yes, the COO specifically mentioned involving emotion.)

          I don’t have any communication issues with anyone else in the company. The COO verified that he hadn’t gotten any complaints from other techs, and I’ve made a point of checking with each technician and asking them how they prefer to get information/requests, how much prep time they prefer, which jobs they like doing best, and what I can do to make their lives easier.
          I’ve done this with Lester in the past, too, and was told everything was fine—so what I really wanted to do, and had tried to do, was say “I have no idea what’s going on, Lester has a hard time abiding by the same protocol as the other six technicians, please help” to management and then step back and let them handle it. Nothing came of it.

          In response to your question about apologies, it feels so rude to accept someone else’s apology and then not mention/fail to own my own mistakes in that same scenario.

          I think that’s everything… I probably shouldn’t have checked this at 2 in the morning. Oh well.

          Thank you for your feedback, genuinely. You called me out on things I needed to re-examine, and responding to you forced me to be much more specific and accurate about the issues.

    2. Psyche*

      It sounds like the problem is that you are scheduling Lester to do things and he isn’t doing them. You may want to clarify with the COO which one of you needs to change. Either Lester doesn’t have the power to suddenly decide “I’m not doing that” or you don’t have the power to schedule him.

      1. Lilith*

        Yeah, I feel like there is a sentence or paragraph missing. I don’t see anything out of line from what’s posted .

    3. LCL*

      It doesn’t sound invasive. It can work, as long as people aren’t intimidated from speaking. And if the results are written down so everyone can keep referring back to the results. If management is committed to keeping people and having them work together it’s worth a shot. I really wanted to do mediation with one employee, but my manager blocked it and said we don’t do business that way. I found out much later the larger department does have a mediation program…

      I think your conduct in the meeting, as described, was just fine. You have nothing to apologize for.

    4. The Man, Becky Lynch*

      In just about all sizes of business, a disagreement in communications that has risen to outbursts in front of the entire group means that mediation does need to happen. The COO probably shouldn’t have made it sound like you needed to disclose your personal information, that’s probably not at all what he meant! He just wanted to have a meeting with everyone to discuss what is happening here and why it’s all come to a head like this.

      It’s much better than just getting both sides, deciding who’s “right” and then firing one of you. Honestly, in the end, you may have been fired by a few of my old bosses for pushing back at the idea of having a further in depth discussion with Lester with the COO present, so he could be a mediator/involved because in the end, he knows there was a conflict. He is on the hook if this escalates.

      As an employee, you don’t get to just make your own decisions about how to interact with each other like that. You do have to be able to work well together without these outbursts. Lester’s performance issues is another thing, you need to tell this to the COO or whomever controls/manages the techs. He should be fired or disciplined and if you’re not the person with that authority, you have to run it up the flagpole.

      You’re already breaking all the rules and you’re friends with the COO. This is one of the reasons you shouldn’t do that.

    5. kittymommy*

      I’m not getting where the COO was wanting/expecting you all to discuss private, medical matters. Perhaps the “soul sucking honest” was a poor choice of words on their part, but my initial thought was that he just wants you both to be honest in how you prefer to communicate with others in general (what does and does not work), and what each other is doing good and bad in the work relationship. And honestly, it seems the COO was right. Maybe it’s not 100% perfect, but it sounds like that by getting to the root of the problem (you both communicate and respond in polar opposite ways) has helped.

    6. LCL*

      I have to add this. I am a great believer in mediation as a first step instead of cranking up the HR/Disciplinary machine. BUT mediation is wrong if there is a great power differential between the two parties, or if the behavior being discussed involves threats and intimidation, etc.

    7. WellRed*

      But you and Lester don’t have a “private relationship” you have a business relationship and things weren’t going well which impacts the business. Maybe the boss didn’t have the best way to handle it (mediation), but it’s absolutely his business, it’s not meddling.

  152. Trinity Beeper*

    Hi everyone!

    I’m not super actively trying to leave my current job, but I would like to leave it within the next year at the most. There’s an org that I’m interested in working at, and this week a position opened up that fits me pretty well. I sent in an application Wednesday night.

    Upon looking up the org on LinkedIn, I noticed that a high school classmate of mine works there. I went to a fairly small school and while we weren’t friends, we knew each other/interacted occasionally. I was thinking of reaching out to her to ask about the org, but am unsure about the timing of reaching out. Do I:
    – Reach out after getting an interview offer (if I get one), pre-interview
    – Reach out now, to either get info for an interview or insight into the org in case I end up applying again in the future
    – Some other third option??

    I’m not necessarily trying to get her to put in a good word for me, but I’ll admit that there’s some part of me thinking that ~in case~ she knows the hiring manager, she might say something of her own volition… But I’m having a hard time figuring out what the best way forward here is. Any thoughts?

    1. MissBliss*

      I might be inclined to ask her to get coffee *after* you’ve had at least one interview, if you then feel like you’d be interested in the job. Say you’d love to get her thoughts on the organization and see if it’s a good fit for you culturally.

  153. DrTheLiz*

    Any advice for wording on a CV? The job posting asks for “PhD with at least cum laude“, but in the UK (where I studied) they can only be awarded pass/fail. I’m torn between “surely they know that overwhelmingly most PhDs are pass/fail, don’t be weirdly defensive” and “it’s a hard requirement, you need an explanation here”.

    1. Trinity Beeper*

      Is there a cover letter in the application? If so, that might be a good place to note the difference. If not, if you’re submitting your application through email, I think it would be acceptable to make note of it in the email.

    2. House Tyrell*

      I’m wondering if the posting was made by someone without an advanced degree but I’ve never seen Latin honors given out past undergrad. I have my MA, so not a PhD, but it’s expected that when you have an advanced degree like that, you will definitely be getting high grades to the point that recognizing them is basically meaningless. For reference, I live in the US, and maybe some universities do give Latin honors to graduate students, but overwhelmingly they do not. My graduate program put you on probation if you ever got a C and if you got too many Bs then the advisor would call you in to figure out what was going on with you. You’re just expected to pass or get mostly or all As.

    3. whistle*

      Weird! I have a PhD from the US, and we did not have grades, and there was certainly no “ranking” of PhD’s. You either successfully defended your dissertation or you didn’t!
      If it was me, I would probably just ignore that part of the job posting – you can’t be the only applicant who is thrown off by it. If you really want the job and think you have to address it, I agree with Trinity. Maybe a brief parenthetical after you mention your PhD?
      Good luck!

      1. Mellow*

        Same here; I hold a Ph.D. but not with Latin honors. Never heard of it beyond an undergraduate degree.

        I guess I need to get out more. :)

    4. Shell*

      That’s weird. I have a PhD from a US school and I don’t think cum laude, magna cum laude etc. is even a thing at the PhD level. If I were facing this situation, I’d probably reference my graduate grade point average in my letter, which would tell them something. But I don’t know how to do anything like that in a British context, so I probably would just say something about the British system not using cum laude.

    5. DrTheLiz*

      Yeah, I did a little digging and it’s a thing in Germany and at least some of Holland, and the job is with a German federal agency (who can be weirdly insular).

      1. Dr Useless*

        Swiss person here. Here, and I suspect it’s the same in Germany, the Latin grades are *only* awarded for PhDs, never for anything below that. I had no idea it’s exactly the opposite elsewhere, so I’d play it safe and mention it somewhere, rather than trusting they’ll figure it out themselves.

  154. Unsure Volunteer*

    I swear that every time I come to post on an open thread it already has about 500 comments; ya’ll are quick :p Anyway, I just want to get this off my chest, maybe see if anyone has any thoughts. I know a woman who owns a local business that relies primarily on volunteer help, and I have been in her volunteer cohort for about three years. I’m embarrassed to say that I had no idea that this is technically illegal until about two months ago, when I read the post here on AAM about a similar situation . Since then, I am have been increasingly uncomfortable about giving up my weekend time to this venture. Although I tend to only give about 4 hours per month, many people do a great deal more. She does have two employees, one full and one part time, but the owner herself has essentially stopped working there; this calendar year alone she will have taken four months of travel and vacation time. Neither of her employees are offered any benefits that I am aware of, and the full time person is frequently unable to take lunch or bathroom breaks because she is the only one in the store. The owner is really, overall, a lovely person, and while I hate to throw wrench in the friendship and stop giving my time, I think that’s what I am going to end up doing. Part of me feels guilty though, because if no one volunteers, the full timer is usually by herself, and the store can get extremely packed on weekends. I should mention that we are not paid but we do receive “store credit”, which can be used towards purchasing merchandise. We used to be able to use it for workshops and other events she would hold, but she stopped that practice a year ago. I think it’s time to pull back and move on; anyone else have thoughts? Thanks!

    1. MissBliss*

      Oh yeah, go. And maybe let her know you’ve recently discovered that it’s illegal and you wouldn’t want her to get in trouble.

    2. Trinity Beeper*

      Is she…really a lovely person? If she takes four months of vacation time but doesn’t provide benefits to her employees, despite her store being seemingly successful? I’m not saying that she isn’t, but it’s something to consider.

        1. valentine*

          The worst bit is the employee who can’t even pee, and doesn’t feel safe to go even with the owner away.

          It’s illegal, as was the store credit (which possibly also violated minimum wage law?), so, tell everyone and quit. That the literal surveillance doesn’t give you chills is a sign you’ve been under her corrupting influence too long. See the letter from the widowed comic book shop owner who stopped allowing volunteers after she found out it’s illegal. Your boss’ attitude won’t be anywhere near that good.

          Can people in this situation sue for wages?

      2. Unsure Volunteer*

        I’ve been wondering. It’s hard to see her cruise pictures all over FB knowing that she’s working her lone employee into the ground. This feels increasingly like a reason why friendship and business should not necessarily be mixed.

    3. Psyche*

      Regardless of the legality, it sounds like she is taking advantage of you and her employees. If she can afford to take a four month vacation, she should be able to afford to staff her store. She may be pleasant, but she is a user and by continuing to volunteer you are enabling her to do so. A decent person does not prevent their employees from taking bathroom breaks.

    4. Arctic*

      Absolutely stop volunteering. I wouldn’t report her or anything (not that you contemplated that) but this is just not OK. She needs to either hire more staff, spend more time there herself, or sell.

      If she holds it against you she isn’t a lovely person.

    5. cmcinnyc*

      It is batty that you are volunteering to help run a for-profit business and feel guilty about stopping because that will put pressure on the lone employee. As a veteran of some batty situations that I really didn’t know were batty at the time–this is BATS. I suspect that when you found out it was actually illegal and took a clear-eyed look at the operation, it started to look bats to you. So this is your confirmation.

      1. Unsure Volunteer*

        Yeah, I am afraid it is definitely bats. :/ The reason I feel guilty is because the full timer is also a friend, who is constantly exhausted from the schedule she pulls. Thankfully I have heard she’s on the hunt for a new job, one that will give her health insurance!

    6. LCL*

      Run. And since the boundaries are already nonexistent, take the full time person out for coffee. Tell her that she should feel free to lock the door and take a bathroom break when needed. And give her the information you printed out that explains why this kind of arrangement isn’t legal.

      1. Unsure Volunteer*

        She can take breaks when there’s no one in the store, but usually she has to wait. Oh and I forgot a major creep factor, she has access to the security camera system at her house and can “check in” when she feels like it. There have been instances of her seeing things she doesn’t like and calling to store to tell us off.

        1. Utoh!*

          Wow, does not sound “lovely” at all! You should absolutely make a change and support your friend who is doing the full-time gig with her job search. You may see the “real” her once you start pushing back.

        2. Gumby*

          I might be dropping a word or two in the ears of the other volunteers about the illegality as well.

        3. AcademiaNut*

          That all so crappy that I’d be inclined to go the formal complaint route.

          She’s using illegal free labour as the basis of a for profit business model. She takes months of exotic vacation time while her sole paid employee has no benefits and has trouble taking bathroom breaks,. She relaxes at home, monitoring her ‘volunteers’ via video, and phones in to berate them. I’d be willing to bet money that the lone employee is incorrectly classified too – does she pay overtime, or treat her as exempt?

          This woman might have a pleasant personality, and she might not realize that her business model is illegal, and she might not be malicious, but she’s really not a kind or thoughtful person.

    7. Unsure Volunteer*

      A quick thanks to everyone who commented. It is helpful to have outside eyes look at a situation and to be reassured that my instinct here is correct. Onward!

  155. acctnt*

    I got a new job and long story short am leaving for a lot of different reasons but my manager has a lot to do with why I am leaving. Today she came into my cube and asked me to leave contact information “in case they need me after hours for any questions” when I am gone. They all have my cell phone number because of other work reasons but is this normal to ask for personal email in case something comes up after I leave? I’ve tried to train the person who will be filling my position, but I always thought it was the company’s problem if something comes up after an employee leaves?

    Any advice? My last day is today so I’m not sure if I should “forget” to send my personal email, or if this will mean that instead of emailing me problems they will be constantly hounding me via phone.

    1. Mannheim Steamroller*

      You’re correct that it’s the company’s problem. Once you’re off the payroll, they have ZERO claim to your time or your knowledge.

      1. Mediamaven*

        Of course they have zero claim. Of course it’s the company’s problem. But that isn’t the only reason to help out the company if under a rare occurrence something didn’t transition. For godsakes it’s about leaving a positive impression. How would you like it if you put that employer down as a reference and they refused to say anything positive because it was no longer their problem?

        1. acctnt*

          Yeah, I’ve given my coworkers my email that I definitely wouldn’t mind helping. There’s just been lot of issues with my direct boss (too many to list or that I care to go over at this point) but she’s the only one I’m hesitant about giving my info to. When she changed jobs, she told me she did her other job for MONTHS because her old company refused to hire someone new to do it so since that was her old culture I’m worried she’ll expect the same from me.

    2. Ali G*

      I would only give your email to those you might want to keep in touch with. “Forget” her request. If she or your former co-workers call you, don’t answer, let it go to VM and only return calls you want (i.e. ignore requests, return calls to friends only).

    3. Cake Wad*

      “It won’t be possible for me to continue to answer questions after I leave, but I have provided [new person] training and documentation so you should be fine. Byeeeeee!”

    4. Catsaber*

      It’s normal to field minor questions for maybe a few weeks, along the lines of “where is this file” or “who does this process.” If it comes anywhere near actual work – like asking you to spend time on it, produce something, etc – then you can push back and say “Sorry! I don’t have the time/that’s what this document is for/go ask Sally”.

      I would rather they email that to me than call my phone, so I would give them the email. That way, you can take your time responding to them, so that they don’t think they can just have instant answers. You can also set a hard date of when taking these questions will stop – like, “I will be available to FIELD QUESTIONS until the first of next month.”

      And you are right, it’s the company’s problem. You don’t have to do any of that. It’s a courtesy to answer a few transitional questions, but if they take up any more of your time than you are comfortable with, you are well within your rights to cease answering calls and emails.

      1. Catsaber*

        Everyone above me is correct – you don’t have to give them anything – and that’s also normal. You can choose to do either.

    5. A Simple Narwhal*

      I vote to “forget” to leave your personal email. It would be one thing if your boss asked really nicely if you wouldn’t mind leaving contact info and emphasized it would only be used in the rare chance they absolutely needed you for a quick question, but to just tell you? Nope. No thank you.

      In a few short hours you won’t work at that company any longer and it will literally not be your job to ensure that the work gets done. If they hound you via phone you can just say “sorry, with my new job I don’t have time to help you out, sorry!” And then rinse and repeat, and then maybe block them if it gets really bad.*

      *I would maybe answer a truly quick question or two in the beginning as a show of good faith, but beyond that they’re on their own. You don’t work there anymore.

    6. Carquals 153 Niner 2*

      No, it’s not ok for them to expect you to ‘be available after hours’ for questions when you’ve prepared them for your departure and trained the next person. That’s part of staff turnover – sometimes there are unknowns.

      You can leave your email to make it less awkward upon leaving, but you have no obligation to respond to their emails/questions. If they do contact you outside of a formal agreement, and you don’t want to engage, ignore them. However, after the 3rd call or so, you should contact HR (or its equivalent) and let them know of the harassment.

      You can propose that, under a month-long contract, you’d be available to answer questions, train someone and this is your fee schedule: $15 for phone calls; $20 to come in and train.

    7. Mediamaven*

      It’s common. We do it. We rarely do contact anyone but it’s valuable to have in case some thing comes up. No one has ever minded it. I suppose it depends on the job. But if you’d ever like a reference from your boss after you leave then I would look at it that way. It’s about maintaining positive relations.

    8. Nicki Name*

      You are correct. Once they stop paying you, you’re no longer working for them. Definitely don’t give them your personal email. This is not normal.

      If they hired someone who couldn’t pay attention in training, that’s their problem, not yours. If they wind up hounding you via phone, flag their number(s) for blocking/unread message deletion (whatever your phone lets you do).

      1. Mediamaven*

        It’s actually very normal in positive, mutually beneficial professional relationships. No one should hound any one obviously but it’s perfectly normal to answer a question if it came up.

        1. acctnt*

          Haha – I would argue that my current relationship with my boss is neither positive or mutually beneficial.

          Thanks for the advice everyone, I’m not going to be rude about it so will probably field a few simple questions but am definitely going to be direct when referring them to materials that I’ve prepared for this transition.

          1. valentine*

            Create a burner email, filter, and only check once, a month or two from now, and block their calls.

          2. Seven hobbits are highly effective, people*

            Feel free to sit on their emails for a while with “whoops, I guess I’ve been too busy with work to check my personal email much recently” if they start to send too many. Personally, I’d be pretty helpful if they sent a single email at the end of the first day or two with all of their little questions like “where is the such-and-such binder” (assuming the locations aren’t obvious), and then would get gradually “worse” at answering their emails with time. If they start trying to get you to do actual work, or send emails about things they should be able to easily figure out, then your email-checking skill get worse. “Haha whoops, looks like I forgot I had email for a month there. Anyway, if you’re still not sure where the hole punch is, I think I left in in plain sight on the table next to the photocopier.”

  156. LGC*

    So, this is where you guys tell me how to do my job. Difficulty: this isn’t quite a conventional office.

    One of my employees (Fergus) is…he’s a quick worker and volunteers to help out around the office, but he’s not great at prioritization. For example, he’ll sometimes stop working on his primary task (which is pretty time sensitive data entry – but each batch of files only takes 20-30 minutes to complete on average) to go move boxes around. (Moving boxes to the correct area is important but not as urgent.) He’ll also work out of order sometimes (his primary task requires him to work in a clear order – starting with the earliest task name – and he’ll skip ahead on occasion). Finally, I’ve noticed that if I give him a request, he’ll do it immediately even if I tell him to finish his current job before doing it.

    How can I help him stay on task and make sure he understands that it’s really important that he get his primary jobs done ASAP? Right now I’ve been trying to work with his workflow, but I also have 20 other employees and administrative tasks I do (I’m really busy).

    1. Trinity Beeper*

      An old manager of mine taught me a prioritization framework that works pretty well: the urgent/important framework. Basically, Fergus needs to label all of his tasks as Urgent and Important, Urgent and Not Important, Not Urgent but Important, and Not Urgent and Not Important. Then he needs to list them out in order (or make four boxes), and complete all of the Urgent and Important tasks before moving on to Urgent and Not Important, etc.

        1. JanetM*

          The only thing I’ve ever heard it called is along the lines of “Stephen Covey’s Time Management Matrix.”

          1. I Just Work Here*

            It’s called an Eisenhower Box and I use it for my tasks!
            I don’t follow the exact “rules”, because if you google it, it tells you that the things that are Not Urgent/Not Important can be deleted, and the things that are Urgent/Not Important can be delegated.

              1. valentine*

                I would rename it with numbers.

                Find out his objective. Does he need a breather and is choosing the wrong one or choosing it for too long? Is he easily bored?

      2. Pennalynn Lott*

        I would add that if you ask him to do something, tell him what priority it is (Urgent and Important, Not Urgent but Important, etc) so that he’ll know where to fit it in his schedule.

    2. LCL*

      In new job situations, I am very much like your Fergus. Warning-sarcasm and bitterness ahead, but not directed at you. The first paragraph is kind.
      The way you help him if you are a decent manager and person, which I can tell you are by how you asked the question, is to take an hour or two and explain the priorities to him using specific examples. Right now he is trying to manage his work by rearranging his jobs in a way that makes sense to him. What seems a clear order to you isn’t clear to him. He also thinks he is doing the right thing by dropping whatever he is doing whenever you give him a request. If you are the manager it is OK to say do it my way, but show him what your way is.

      The way a poor, or mean, or just not very insightful manager would handle this is to get frustrated, pile more work on him, ask him why he hasn’t gotten some assignment done, ask him why he is working on some task that is a normal part of his work, ask him why he dropped work to start working on something you told him to do, and tell him to just work like coworker X, and that you think he has a bad attitude because if he cared about what he was doing he would do it the right way.

      1. LGC*

        Apologies for the late reply! I meant to answer you on Friday, but I’m super bad with getting back to people.

        1) I’m flattered that you think of me as thoughtful. It’s…not entirely accurate, I’ll admit. (We’ve had our differences, and I’m trying to work my way back to being a good boss.)

        2) I would let him know in detail – I’ve already mentioned that he needs to do his primary tasks in a specific order (he still skips around a bit, but it’s mostly manageable at this point), but the problem is scheduling that. (Because of Reasons.)

        To address OtterB’s point – I would not have a problem with him doing a batch of documents, taking a stretch break, and then doing another batch. (Been there, done that.) The problem is he starts a batch and then takes a stretch break halfway through – and because of the project setup, that can cause echoing delays. (Basically – since the data entry phase is pretty intensive, we split the main batch up into smaller sub-batches, and things can’t progress for the parent batch until all of the sub-batches are complete.)

    3. OtterB*

      You might want to ask him why he is doing things out of priority order. I could see, for example, using lmove boxes” as a stretch break from data entry.

  157. DaniCalifornia*

    My new coworker asked me yesterday how to attach a file to an email. She has been in admin/office type jobs for years. And based on her other ways of learning I don’t think it was just a brain fart. She wont use the OneNote reference for anything, instead she copy pasted a well formatted handbook into Word and printed it out. -_-

    We reorganized our job duties that were spread out among 3 admins to now spread out to 4 admins (including new coworker.) Somehow I ended up with more job duties after this reorg even though I was specifically told my load would be lightened.

    Screw. This. Job.
    I’m so thankful for the interviews I’ve been getting this past week and a half. I would really like to not be working here past August.

    1. The Man, Becky Lynch*

      OH
      MY
      GOD

      This sounds like the awful woman I had to “train” a few years ago. She had jobs that she had to use email and computers in general consistently but had the same kind of “basic” questions. She lasted two days after I was gone and the boss was like “OMG Becky was right, FIRE HER!” I’m glad you’re way out because nobody should have to deal with that nonsense.

      1. Seven hobbits are highly effective, people*

        I’m always amazed at how consistently clueless some people are about computers. I mean, I understand why my grandmother is clueless about them (she retired in the 1980s and just never sat down to figure them out – she learned how to program a VCR, though), but it seems like people who have held jobs where they have had computers on their desks for at least 10-20 years now should be pretty good with them by now.

        We had a person who, in our staff training for our new computers, wanted to know how to get the “cats in her browser” back. (She had some extension that would open up new tabs and windows with pictures of cats, apparently, and this was a big morale booster for her.) This was something she raised her hand to ask in front of the whole group with the trainer who did not work in our building, because it was her biggest concern about the transition. (Meanwhile, I was frantically trying to “break” stuff and see which programs I needed to have installed while someone with the admin password had time to deal with my new computer. None of my questions were about programs I didn’t need to do my actual job.)

        Her actual work-related new computer set-up needs were handled by me as she came to me over the next several weeks and interrupted whatever I was in the middle of as she realized that her new computer didn’t have thing-she-needed on it. (I am not in IT, but I am the most knowledgeable tech person in our office for most issues.)

        They held off on giving us our new computers for several months until we could be “trained” on them, which was baffling to me until multiple people in the “training” were surprised that their new computers did not automatically have the same stuff on their desktops as their old computers. The “training” was mostly explaining how to save your stuff to Google Drive and copy it over. (The new computers were Windows 10 machines, and most of the old computers were also Windows 10 machines. This isn’t a “this is how to use Linux and also some of your tasks will now need to be done using the command line due to a new workflow” situation, just a “this is a new computer that doesn’t have your stuff on it yet” situation.)

    2. LCL*

      BTDT with your reorg problem, much sympathy. I have yet to find any practical use for OneNote.

    3. NicoleK*

      Oh it could be worse. My BEC coworker didn’t know how to get to the company website. And she’s been in her role for 6 plus years.

    4. ..Kat..*

      Please let the other volunteers know that this is illegal. Depending on the state, no breaks could be illegal for the full time worker. Let the FT worker know this. It is possible that this could be interpreted as denying access to the bathroom, which could be illegal. (IANAL). I think you should let the owner know, and if she doesn’t change her behavior, please report her to the state labor bureau.

      And no, the owner is not a lovely person. She is using people (the volunteers) to enrich herself. And she is providing a crappy work environment for her employees. And she is okay with 4 month vacations for herself, but not okay providing benefits.

      The owner could end up with massive fines. And be responsible for back wages and unpaid taxes. If she is a lovely person, but just uninformed (WRT the volunteers), she will pay them back wages.

    5. ..Kat..*

      Have you let your boss know that your workload is actually heavier now? If not, might be worth a try.

      Good luck with your job search.

  158. kittymommy*

    Okay, so I need some advice/perspective/instruction. Short version: I need guidance if I should reach out to a business contact regarding any open positions in their office .

    Very long version: I am currently an EA in an organization/government office where I am the only direct staff for the highest upper echelon. I answer to them alone and while there is a lot of other people who have seniority higher them me those individuals are not in a position to dictate anything to me. Because I’m it (and some of my supervisors see me as a personal assistant as well as an EA) I am stressed out, overworked and of course, underpaid. I have been thinking about looking for another position outside my org but I have to tread lightly since me leaving will probably not be taken well. I’ve been treading water (I hate change and I’ll stay forever in a job just to avoid it) but recently I learned that the salary study that was commissioned a few years ago (and acted upon) was misread with regards to my job. Instead of looking in the Senior management section for my job, they used a generic EA job in the Clerical section. Turns out there is a job listed under the first section that is specific to an EA for the senior executive(s)/CEO. And the base pay difference is +$10,000. Due to various reasons I do not think this was an oversight on HR’s part. At one time I another EA for a very large local business spoke with each other quite a lot for professional reasons and became FB friends. We would always talk about maybe meeting up for drinks after work some time as we live fairly close together. She has moved to a different position in the business (PA to the owners) and I thought about reaching out to her to see what, if anything, might be coming up in a current, large expansion happening in the business. I’d messenger her over Facebook for the contact but should I even do it? Is it weird for the other person? This is way outside my comfort zone, so I’m not even sure what to say.

    2. animaniactoo*

      Do it, but stay casual about it and make it absolutely fine to hear “no, nothing doing” and move on from it immediately.

  159. Sparkly Librarian*

    I did it!! Got through the first week back from maternity leave. Everyone is still alive and employed. 4-day work weeks for a while now. (And a long-planned week of vacation in a month!) This is doable.

  160. Doryfish*

    I applied internally for a role in another department, and *a month later* after hearing nothing at all, the hiring manager caught up with me (in the bathroom) about it. Even then, I didn’t get an interview. I got a “low key chat” with her where she told me that most of the department wants to hire a new grad with a degree specific to that department. Didn’t sound like she feels that way, but apparently they’re negative about any non-traditional candidates.

    A few things of note: I’ve done everything in the job description before, and highlighted this on my resume and cover letter. I just didn’t have the title because my last company was dysfunctional. And the “new grad” thing is just grating; I’m looking to make a career change and that means (in this case) mainly looking at entry-level positions to gain experience. Sorry I’m not 22?

    It’s been three weeks since that chat, and absolutely no follow-up. My own team has been incredibly supportive about me moving to a different role if that’s what I want, but their hiring plans are up in the air because of this, too. My grandboss wants to sit down with the hiring manager of the other department and see what’s up (and again, she’s very supportive: she wants to see how I can get experience with the other role even if they don’t hire me, but that just feels so cringe and awkward to me).

    I’m frustrated and demoralized. At this point I don’t feel any enthusiasm about continuing with this company, in either department (one is job I hate doing and one is a department that doesn’t seem interested but won’t come out and reject me).

    Any thoughts/advice?

    1. Rusty Shackelford*

      Is “new grad” code for “someone who will accept the low pay we’re offering?”

      1. Doryfish*

        I think the pay scale is actually comparable to what I’m already making. It sounds more like “we want to hire someone who we can mold and train to do exactly what we want” when… contrary to popular belief, you don’t actually lose the ability to learn new things or be trained on a job after age 30.

    2. dealing with dragons*

      whenever I hear the “new grad” thing it’s cause they don’t want to pay for someone with experience. you’re going to cost them a lot more than someone right out of college.

      my last place of employment was doing that, and lo and behold you can’t find people with essentially 3-5 years of job experience with 0 years of job experience. wild.

      1. Doryfish*

        Yeah, a lot of the jobs I see posted have incredibly low pay ranges (when listed) but they want *5-10* years experience for some of these roles. What the eff, y’all.

    3. Colette*

      That sounds disappointing, but I don’t really see anything outrageous about it. It sounds like you don’t have a degree specific to the department – and, while that doesn’t mean you couldn’t do a great job, they are allowed to want you to have that education. And it’s healthy for organizations to bring in new grads – they bring new ideas and up-to-date training, and it’s good for organizations to have younger workers so that not everyone wants to retire at once. It’s not about being 22.

      Three weeks really isn’t long in the context of hiring. It’s possible they’re still considering you; it’s also possible they aren’t.

      But if you don’t want to be there anymore, why not apply outside?

      1. Doryfish*

        I didn’t say any of it was outrageous, and it hasn’t been 3 weeks – it’s been almost two months. And if they aren’t considering me, there’s no reason not to just tell me.

        And I have been applying outside.

    4. The New Wanderer*

      This stood out to me: “My grandboss wants to sit down with the hiring manager of the other department and see what’s up (and again, she’s very supportive: she wants to see how I can get experience with the other role even if they don’t hire me, but that just feels so cringe and awkward to me).”

      I think if you had a better feeling about that department or maybe that role, it wouldn’t feel awkward to have your grandboss advocate for you. Unless your grandboss has a history of overstepping (which would be awkward), I think that would generally be a good thing for your career and it speaks well of you that she wants to do that. In this instance, if it’s seeming like too much pushing from your side and not enough interest on theirs, maybe your reaction is telling you it’s time to move on.

      The HM saying that they wanted to go with a new grad over someone who has experience in other things is not great, and that would put me off too. That’s a thing that companies do though, they ‘buy new’ rather than reuse/retrain the resources they already have, which is annoying and wasteful and very common. The people who want to stay and grow get demoralized and eventually leave, and the new people may or may not stay anyway.

  161. Kiwiii*

    I had an interview about three weeks ago now with a really interesting nonprofit for a position similar to what I do now at a government agency, but more project based and for $6-10k more/year. I am understandably at the edge of my seat.

    Last week they called me for an electronic copy of my references and then emailed me to say that they had called my old supervisor (from a grocery store — I don’t have a ton of professional work history) and that she hadn’t called them back. I gave them her email and reached out to her about it (which I’d also done when I gave her them as a reference in the first place) and she was like “oh, yeah, I saw that they left me a voicemail yesterday, maybe I can call them back tomorrow at lunch.”

    2 Things: 1) It’s probably just me being anxious about the job hunt, but I kind of wanted to rage-monster at her. Is this a reasonable response to a reference request (that she seems more or less willing/happy to give) or is she being like really unprofessional here? 2) Is it a good sign that they’re being so thorough about trying to follow up with her? How often do companies run references on more than a couple of candidates?

    1. That Girl From Quinn's House*

      I think it’s really going to depend on the attitude of the hiring manager. I’ve had to do reference checks for hiring, and it’s pretty common to struggle to get in touch with professional references. It’s even harder if the employee is young and listed a teacher (schools run on different schedules), has moved and listed a reference from a different time zone or even a different country, or from a service sector position where the reference’s hours are irregular or their primary duties are customer-facing so they can’t be reached by phone.

      If I really can’t get in touch with a reference, I’ll ask the employee for another one. It’s not a big deal.

    2. Blue Eagle*

      She is doing you a favor. Calm down on the rage-monster attitude. Her response (about delaying a day in responding) may not have anything to do with lack of professionalism, but clearly her understanding of the timetable is not the same as your timetable and urgency. Why didn’t you calmly respond to her by saying “Is it possible for you to call them back today. I would really appreciate if you could make the time to call them today because they won’t move forward with considering me for this job until you do and I would really like to be selected for this job.”

  162. AnonToday*

    When your head says that taking a new job might be a huge risk (and there are real reason to be believe it would be), but your heart says you would regret it if you didn’t take it, which do you listen to?

    1. Matilda Jefferies*

      First, I just need a minute to settle into my rocking chair and put on my cardigan, because I’m old. 45, to be exact! And I’ve been doing a lot of soul searching now that I’m officially middle aged. Honestly, I don’t have a lot of regrets in my life so far, but one of the big ones I do have is that I didn’t take more risks. Pretty much every decision I’ve ever made, I’ve chosen the safest path. Thinking back even to when I was applying for universities, I’ve always taken the easiest choice, the expected choice, the one that required the least thinking and effort on my part.

      It’s a cliché, but I really do wish that I had been braver, and taken more opportunities when they came up. Now that I’m the main breadwinner for a family of four, and I have a mortgage and kids and all the other responsibilities, it’s not as easy to do cool things any more. I would love to change careers, or quit my job and travel the world, but I just don’t have that kind of flexibility in my life right now.

      If your heart is saying you’ll regret this opportunity if you pass it up, that’s important. You’ll have plenty of time in your life to think with your head and do the responsible thing, but you won’t always be able to follow your heart.

      3. merp*

        This is.. really well said. Gonna write up some thoughts right now before I forget them.

        Someday can we just have an encouraging ask the readers open thread about changing careers to follow your dreams? Think like, “This is what I do right now and it’s fine but in 5 years I want to bake bread for a living. How do I plan for that?” That sort of thing.

    2. Psyche*

      I think it depends on the consequences if things don’t work out. Making a risky job move can be worth it early in your career when you don’t have dependents and can start over relatively easily. Risky job moves when you have a family and are the primary bread winner is much harder. So think of what the worst case scenario is and then decide if that is a risk you are willing to take.

    3. Colette*

      How do you have to change your life to take the job? Do you have to move your 6 kids to rural Siberia where they have to ride a polar bear to school every day? Do you have to spend an extra 2 hours a day commuting? Will you be expected to work irregular hours that will interfere with your family life/existing commitments?

      If the job doesn’t work out, what’s plan B? How long will it take you to find something to pay the bills? How long can you live without a job? What will the long-term impact on your life and career be?

      I’m generally in team “make sure your ducks are in a row and then go for it”.

    4. animaniactoo*

      My heart – provided I am fairly confident in my backup plan if the risk backfires. Even if my backup plan is fairly nebulous “Well, I can lean on X and Y. That will probably get me a decent enough opportunity in case it doesn’t work out”.

      1. AnonToday*

        It’s taken me about two years to find this opportunity, so do I think some of my fear is how long would it take to find something else if I had to find something else.

    6. ..Kat..*

      I would try to do both – take the new job, but have a backup plan. Part of my back up plan would be a money cushion of savings – that way if things did not work out, I would have time/money to move on. This is what I did when I took a huge risk by changing careers.

  163. Caroline M*

    I just got promoted in my office to a position with completely different responsibilities (think transition from admin to research) and I’m nervous about the transition! I’m very excited but also anxious about not knowing what I’m doing and screwing something up. I’ve already had one conversation with my supervisory counterpart about what the team is working on, but I still feel less than fully prepared for new job. Any tips/advice for starting strong and adjusting smoothly?

    1. ..Kat..*

      Find out if there are any “how to do this new job” references that you could use. Ask the experienced people “who/what do you go to when you have questions?” Ask about training opportunities (classes – online or in person). Ask the experienced people how they learned to do their jobs. Ask about having a go-to person for questions. Ask this go-to person if they want you to ask questions as they come up, or do they want you to save up questions and ask them at certain intervals throughout the day.

      Congratulations on your new job.

  164. AnotherJane*

    Anyone have any advice for a young HR professional? I’ve been in the HR field for 2.5 years and it feels like I’m still so green. I have a BS in a related field, but no specific schooling in HR (other than an HRCI cert)- my first HR job just kind of landed in my lap and I grew to really enjoy it. I’m finding that I’m not very knowledgable about a lot of HR things (mostly employee relations, legal, and payroll), and I’m not sure how to get more experience. I’m finding that a lot of employers are requiring more experience (that I don’t have) to get to the next level in my career, so I feel at a loss! Is a master’s degree worth it? Is there any specific training you’d recommend? Any advice you have would be great!

    1. Schnoodle HR*

      I know my local tech school has both a payroll specialist certification program and an HR Legal workshop program that’s essentially one class a week for 5 or 6 months.

      I would go that route.

      Long term a Master’s will get you in the door pretty well (I have a master’s, but I did it straight after my BA). If I was already working I don’t know if I’d go that route. I now have about 10 years experience, and will say experience is really what gives you…well experience! The education is a little fluffy except for the actual laws and payroll, which you can get educated on I think cheaper and more efficiently than with a master’s. And a Master’s wouldn’t cover too much of payroll outside of FLSA.

      Joining your local SHRM and going to monthly chapters will also be helpful.

    2. Buttons*

      I am not a fan of master’s in HR, I find that it gives people a general knowledge of HR things, but it doesn’t make them an expert in one area. I prefer to hire experts.
      My advice is to gain knowledge on the various functions in HR and pick your main area of interest then focus on that (FYI compensation is one of the most sought after roles in HR, and starting pay is higher than other roles). SHRM, NHRA, ATD are all professional groups for people in the HR industry, they offer networking events, development, training, lunch and learns, conferences, and certifications. Your current company is likely to sponsor your yearly membership in one professional organization. I would look around to see which organization is most active in your area, and then ask your leader if they will pay for your membership to help develop your skills and knowledge in HR. They should do this- if they don’t want to lose you and if they want you to grow. It is employee retention 101.
      I recently found a networking group on Meetup for my are of work, and it has been fantastic. We get together 1x a month and one of us presents a topic. At the end of each meeting, we decide on what we want the next topic to be and someone volunteers to cover it. It has been a lot less formal than what I experience with ATD, but I have gotten a lot out of it.
      Go find your passion within HR! :) Good luck!

    3. The Man, Becky Lynch*

      2.5 years is still really new for something as complex and huge as HR can be! So I wouldn’t beat yourself up over your lack of knowledge.

      Staying where you are and learning as you go is crucial. School and programs don’t teach you more than just a blanket view of things and terms more than anything.

      You also should lean on your research abilities more than what you have in your think tank as well. Things change so frequently that being part of the HR association and keeping up to date on what’s new in your region will do a lot of good.

  165. Fake Eleanor*

    Today’s my last day at my job! I’m leaving to start law school in August. Does anyone have tips for transitioning back into academics after working for a few years? I’m worried that I’ve completely forgotten how to study, and that I won’t be as motivated when my procrastination only has consequences for myself (versus the whole firm).

    1. roux*

      I wouldn’t worry about being at a disadvantage compared to your peers who came straight from undergrad. Undergrad studying is very different from law school studying. Like totally different skills and levels of diligence / determination / drive required for the latter.

    2. CatCat*

      I went to law school after several years in the 8-5 workforce. 1L year is tough, but I did not find the transition back to the academic world too bad because being used to working a regular schedule actually helped me. I just continued to stick to a regular schedule in terms of the time devoted to school. If I didn’t have class until 10, I still showed up to campus by 8 (often earlier though, I am a morning person) and studied at the library or student center until class. If classes were done by 2, I usually still stuck around campus studying until I was done or around 4:30 at the latest (this let me avoid rush hour traffic).

    3. AvonLady Barksdale*

      When I went to grad school after working for a few years, I found that the hardest thing was studying once I got home. I was so used to, “You’re home = you’re done for the day” that it made studying pretty tough. I would suggest figuring out if that’s an issue for you (you may not know until you start) and if it is, make time in your schedule to study somewhere other than your home.

      1. Fake Eleanor*

        Thanks for the advice! I think I’ll preemptively try that, because you’re right, I am very used to staying at work quite late sometimes but then being done once I get home. And CatCat, that’s also a good tip – in undergrad I found it so easy to fall into the trap of sleeping late and staying up until 3 working, so I’d like to avoid returning to that if at all possible.

    4. Bigglesworth*

      I’m beginning my 3L year this fall and worked for four years between undergrad and law school. It’s weird being one of the older students, but I’ve found that it made me much more desirable for internships and jobs. Also, being older meant I was more mature in handling conflict and managing a team, which meant that this past spring I was selected as the new editor-in-Chief of my law journal.

      Because my work schedules have typically been irregular, I found it easy to study at home. That said, I wish I had created a more structured study schedule, which i didn’t do until 2L fall. I took all evening classes in the fall, but here’s an example of my schedule:

      8-9am – wake up, drink coffee, shower, etc
      9-noon – study con law
      12-12:30 – lunch
      12:30-3:30 – study income tax
      3:30-4:30 – commute to school
      4:30-6 – Review
      6-8 – Con law
      8-10 – income tax
      10-10:45 – commute home

      I’m more of a night owl, which is why this schedule works for me. That said, don’t underestimate the amount of time you’ll need to spend studying. It’s one thing to use Quimbee to help you review cases that you’ve already read twice, it’s another to use it as your sole source of knowledge.

      One thing I’ve also found useful that’s I learned from my torts Prof is what to do when briefing a case (especially for coldcalling). Here’s what he recommended:
      Relevant Facts
      Procedural posture (what did the lower courts do and how did it get to the court it’s in)
      Holding (what did the court decide)
      Reasoning (why did it make that decision)

      If you can hit those key points in a case, it’ll help you both in class and on the exam.

      Good luck! Law school has been (and continues to be) on of the most difficult things I could have ever done. That said, it’s been rewarding, especially during the second half. I’m sure you’ll do great! Never forget why you started law school – especially when times get hard and you want to quit. It’s worth it, but it won’t necessarily be easy.

  166. roux*

    Does anyone have any Remain Calm advice for the job hunt? I recently turned down 2 job offers. The first was pretty crappy, but the other was a decent offer, just not what I wanted to do.

    In the aftermath, I sent an application to a company I’m really interested in and also asked a contact there if she would forward my resume to HR (she had previously offered). Then on the same day, someone in the field I’m trying to get into and who I greatly admire reached out to me and said he’d received my resume and wanted to talk! We had a great phone interview and he said he would get back to me soon with a job posting. Well, so it’s been a week and despite following up, I haven’t heard back from him or from my contact who said she’d help me with HR at her company. I know people are busy, but that hasn’t stopped me from nail biting, nervous pacing, and nightmares about never finding a job and having to move back in with my parents.

    any advice?

    1. Buttons*

      Just breath! Lots of people take vacation this time of year, so even if they around, the person they may be needing to contact might not be around. A few deep breaths and get ready for a great weekend! I hope you hear something soon.

    2. Mellow*

      I realize it’s none of my business, but I am wildly curious: if the job you were offered isn’t what you want to do, why did you apply for it and go through the interview process?

  167. KoiFeeder*

    College career center sent out an email at some nebulous point (I only checked it today bc official transcripts have to go to my college email before I can send them out) about hiring tips and one of them literally says to give male interviewers beer or other alcohol.

    Now, I am a mere undergraduate, but I don’t think that’s a good tip.

    3. Psyche*

      Do not do that. You don’t know if they even drink. Or if they have religious objections or are recovering alcoholics. Also, it can come across as trying to bribe them. Do not bring gifts to interviews.

    4. Catsaber*

      Oooh noooo. Was that part of an article they linked to? Or they actually put that in official university communications?

      1. KoiFeeder*

        It wasn’t a linked article, but the tips did look awfully similar to that Forbes article linked in the “I gave my interviewer chocolate” question from here, just with some additions to make bad ideas even worse. Not all of them track to the article, but a lot of them do.

    5. ArtK*

      Let’s see now. We have alcohol, always a problematic thing with someone you don’t know. Gifts for an interviewer — hello bribery! Then we have the blatant sexism. Or did they suggest bringing something “feminine” for female interviewers.

      If you’ve got the energy, push back on this to get someone higher up to pay attention. This is horrible advice and will get candidates rejected.

    6. Buttons*

      WHAT? No, no that is some of the worst advice I have ever seen from a college career center and I have seen them crank out some really awful stuff.

      1. KoiFeeder*

        That was about my reaction, too. Read it, closed out, opened it back up and read it again just to be sure I was seeing this right. Nothing like showing your screen to a fish and asking him if he’s seeing this too (Sasukoi, dear lad that he is, tried to eat the laptop).

    8. Fake Eleanor*

      Well, that’s one way to stand out. I promise, if you do this, they’ll never stop talking about your application.

      (This is quite possibly the worst advice I’ve ever heard.)

    9. Countess Boochie Flagrante*

      I feel like this deserves some kind of prize for worst job-hunting advice — and I didn’t think that was possible anymore!! My goodness. This should be an AAM story for the ages.

      Buy your interviewers booze… but only if they’re men! Yeesh.

        1. KoiFeeder*

          I’d have to screencap- the career center didn’t blind-copy everyone they sent it to, and I doubt Alison wants 1000+ college email addresses that can be used to find first and last names.

          Also, I’ve already sent her a question, but if you think she’d want to see this…

    11. Buttons*

      Who works in this college career center, either old guys thinking they are from the cast of Mad Men or really young people with no clue?

      1. KoiFeeder*

        The sort of people who provide like, 70 different infographic resume templates and refuse to review your resume if you don’t utilize one of them. I went once, was not amused by the traced-hello-kitty-head-pie-graph, did not return. I don’t know much, and art majors supposedly can get away with a lot, but I could see that one was a bad idea right there!

          1. Antilles*

            The sad fact is that most career centers have little to no qualifications for providing career advice.
            My personal theory is that it’s primarily a timeline thing. You usually need to spend a few years in private industry before you get to the point where your company would put you in charge of a hiring process…and once you’ve gotten to that point, it’s highly unlikely for you to jump ship to work at a career center in academia.

          2. KoiFeeder*

            After crawling the career center website for more information…

            I could not find the name of a single person who works at the career center. At all. Much less qualifications. So that is your (possibly horrifying) answer. I’ve never heard of anyone getting a non-robot response from replying to an email, I’m not really able to call, and I lack the energy to drag myself up there to ask inconvenient questions.

              1. AcademiaNut*

                They’re obviously using machine learning with a test set derived from click-bait career articles. This is the same method by which you can create racist Twitter bots.

  168. MikeeBeth*

    I just applied for a part time job at Library 2. The job description said the hours would be flexible and up to two weekends a month would be required. My current job at Library 1 requires me to work every Saturday 12 – 5, which would make it impossible to work at all on Saturdays at Library 2. When Library 1 changed the schedule, I was told I would have to work every Saturday or they’d have to find someone else to fill my position so there is zero flexibility on this. I wasn’t sure from the ad if “two weekends a month” would include Saturdays, so should I bring that up right away if they call me? I’m assuming so. Finding a part time job that doesn’t require weekends is insanely difficult!

    1. Yet Another Librarian*

      Hmmmm…. This is a tough one. I’d assume they meant Saturdays, but maybe not? When I worked in a public library (many years ago), I only worked Sundays. Most people didn’t want to, because it was a half shift, but I had a second job and I preferred it.

      I would wait until you have an interview and then ask about scheduling in person when they offer you a chance. You don’t want to waste their time, but you also don’t want to cut yourself out of jobs if you don’t need too.

    2. librarienne*

      It’s worth asking since you have zero flexibility whatsoever. The new job might have some flexibility–a couple times we’ve switched around the schedules of our current part-timers to accommodate a new person, if everyone is on board. Like, my department’s posted a position as including Sundays 12-5 (for example), but then a current person decides they’d rather work Sundays instead of Saturdays, and so it can be all switched around.

  169. Janessa*

    I’ve been running an Etsy shop for the past year full-time and I’m ready to start looking for a job again. My shop doesn’t make near enough to support me, unfortunately. I have 300-400 sales, and about 50 5-star reviews (besides 2). Should I add this to my resume? Or re-frame it as something else? I know that some people don’t like seeing Etsy shops on resumes since it screams “creative hobby” but a resume gap isn’t ideal either. Also, even though I’m proud of what I’ve accomplished, I know that 300-400 sales doesn’t sound that much in the grand scheme of things. So I’m not sure if this will look like an achievement or not if it’s on a resume. Thanks in advance!

    1. CatCat*

      I am not sure framing it as “Etsy shop” makes sense. More like “Owner, Janessa’s Rad Things, July 2018 – Present.”

      You own a business. Focus on that and work and accomplishment had there that are *relevant* to the jobs you are applying for. Like if you’re applying for a sales job, focus on the sales you made, any increases you had month over month in sales, and how you successfully communicated with your target market to achieve sales. If it’s a customer service role, focus on accomplishments in that area like the average reviews for the company, how you ensured customers were satisfied and the like. Etc., tailoring the accomplishments to the job you’re interested in.

    2. Fuzz Frogs*

      300-400 might not be much compared to a Starbucks but it’s an absolutely massive number! After all, you started from no sales and got to 400, on your own; that’s a lot of goshdarn work. I feel like you should go for the more “owned my own business for a year” angle than the Etsy store angle. I’m sure Alison has something on here about how to write about owning your own business on a resume; so, maybe just do that and leave that it was an Etsy store off of it. If it comes up in the interview you can stress how being your own boss really allowed you to learn–or refine–essential business skills, hopefully tying it into skills they’re looking for in the position. (ex. managing different clients and accounts, working with purchasing, working to deadlines, developing an online presence, creating interest in a product, etc.)

      Others feel free to weigh in on this, but you clearly put a lot of work into your store, and you should market that to your advantage.

    3. Matilda Jefferies*

      You had 350 sales in a year? Somebody bought something from you nearly every day, for an entire year? I know absolutely nothing about retail, and even less about online retail, but that sounds like a great accomplishment! Definitely put it on your resume, along with all the business skills you’ve been using to get this far. There are probably some resources on the Etsy site about how to put it on a resume. Good luck!

    4. The Man, Becky Lynch*

      You should add it but I would NOT make it out to be “owner of Shop!” because that’s what actually turns me off most of all. It’s a freelance/gig thing, which is great and shows marketable skills but you’re absolutely not a business owner in the sense that will come across the way you want it to. It will look like you don’t understand what owning an operating a business really means. 300-400 orders for a single person is pretty substantial for that size of setup though but of course not enough to give you enough money in the end unless you’re selling something super high profit.

      1. Janessa*

        That’s definitely something I’m struggling with. If I don’t put “owner” what do I put? I’ve read some advice about choosing a different title (like Designer or Manager) but my career unfortunately has nothing to do with my Etsy shop beyond the typical “customer service” side of things. If I put “designer” for example, it won’t translate at all.

      2. Woman veteran bizowner*

        Owning an Etsy shop is not freelance. That implies other people hire me to do something specific which is not necessarily how Etsy is structured. an Etsy shop requires marketing, customer service, product development, communications, finance, and more.

        Owning an Etsy shop, or any online shop, requires someone to have some acknowledgement from the state such as a sales and use tax cert, or DBA/ LLC /sole proprietorship construct. It’s a legitimate business construct.

        I owned a business, had an LLC and an EIN. Although I didn’t make much money, my goal was to host events to create enough customer base to open a co-working space, which unfortunately I was never able to do. However I had significant outcomes that I list, on my resume as the “Owner/Founder”.

        I also have an Etsy shop with an LLC and EIN. I put it on my resume as “owner, business name”

        1. Environmental Compliance*

          As another someone with an Etsy shop….no, it’s not a gig set up. At all. I have products that I develop & sell to people. No one hires me for a service. They buy the stuff I produce. I do all the marketing, customer service, finance, etc.

          My Etsy shop is in my LinkedIn profile only (it’s not that relevant to my current position) and I list it as an independent business that I own.

      3. Arts Akimbo*

        It is absolutely business ownership, with all the accounting and tax liability and documentation that that entails. There is nothing freelance or gig about it, and it is hard graft to make a go of.

  170. PopJunkie42*

    So, I’m about two months into a new job. Does anyone have advice for handling someone who is training you, but being…very overbearing?

    I’ll try to keep this brief and reign in my frustration (update – I failed)! I’m taking over from someone who has been here almost 10 years and is on a very slow retirement phase-out. I don’t know the timeline but it could be another 6 months before she’s totally gone, or honestly she could remain for a longer time doing a part-time job. She’s supposed to be handling some behind-the-scenes stuff while I am handling a different position, so there’s supposed to be a distinct line between our duties.

    My training with her has been rough. Just really bad training, and bad communication. I have done this job before but I am learning the intricacies of this specific department. And they are definitely…intricate. Just everything done in a very specific way. “Jane” who I am training with/taking over from is really my only contact. Nobody else here knows what she does or how to do it, for the most part. So I have to go to her for everything.

    I’m a great employee with lots of experience doing this or similar jobs. My start was rough, there is a lot of work, I’m feeling somewhat confused and overwhelmed but I am learning and taking notes and handling the day-to-day stuff as well as 2-3 big projects and I honestly think it is going well. I am not here with the expectation that I am going to be on the same level of a person who has been doing this for 10 years right away. It is going to take time and I am fine with that and learning as I go.

    However, she has completely become this person that constantly hovers over me and follows up on aspects of my job. She sends me huge to-do lists (the last one she sent had 30 items in one email!) and then calls me hours later to see what my progress is on the list. She works at a break-neck speed, and is asking me for updates on things that aren’t due until September/October. She keeps telling me that the job is mine now and I need to learn to be independent, and then she circumvents me and e-mails people and tries to butt in on things I have been working on. It’s very hot and cold – on Monday we did some training and she was supportive and told me I was doing a great job. Yesterday we had a very weird conversation that I think was supposed to encourage me to be more independent and troubleshoot on my own, but then she’s immediately trying to take over things I am working on once again.

    I want to ask her, in a nice professional way, to just hand over some job duties and then she needs to stop following up so much and just trust that I am doing them. But I do still need her for ongoing trainings and information – like I said, I literally have nobody else to turn to to learn things, and there’s still a lot to learn. I am feeling incredibly micromanaged and I’m starting to feel like she doesn’t trust me, even though from my perspective I’m getting things done and I’m taking notes and learning from (small, correctable) mistakes. My boss did tell me when I started that she was a resource, and a great help, but she is not my boss and I can tell her to back off when I need to. But I worry also that she is keeping tabs on me for him…obviously they have worked together forever so it’s a careful relationship to maneuver.

    I would so much rather she just leave now and let me stumble through my first six months! It wouldn’t be perfect but I would figure things out and feel much more ownership and control over everything. Has anyone been in a similar situation and has some advice?

    1. Rey*

      When she follows up on huge to-do lists, state “I thought this was due in September/October. (And only if you absolutely have to, add) I can give you a status next week.” If you can, review the list and say, “I have notes on how to do all but X and Y. Can we schedule a time to review that information?”

      To walk the line between calling her out and not being offensive, can your response sound more like, “Yes, I started working on X and Y. I know you said the job is mine now, so I’m working through it and don’t want you to feel like you have to micromanage me.” or “I know you said that I will be independent on this, so I’ve already started X and Y.”

      Another thought is, is it possible to specifically sit down with her to talk about the transition? And if you think that it would help to keep everyone on the same page, could you include your boss in that? You could frame it as “I want to make sure that we’re on the same page about what I’m working on and how independent I should be on X and Y.” And use it as an opportunity to ask questions like, “How do you feel about the transition so far? Am I taking on the work at a pace that you’re happy with? When should I take over X from you? Am I okay to do Y without checking in with you? What will you need to see from me before I completely take on Z?”

      1. valentine*

        I would so much rather she just leave now and let me stumble through my first six months!
        This surprises me because you kept saying you need her.

        Ask your boss for a week or two to fly solo and then you’ll only go to Jane for refreshers, if needed.

        Maybe she has a push and pull going on. When she’s done with the place and ready to go to Antarctica for science, you’re doing a great job. When she panics or feels passed over or left behind, she smothers you. You can only hold firm and agree with her about being independent.

    2. CM*

      Yeah, so the two of you definitely need clearer boundaries about who’s responsible for what, and I think it might be worth sitting down together with the big to-do list or the list of current and upcoming projects, and just really explicitly agreeing about when and where she’ll be involved. Like, “So, I’m going to handle doing XYZ and then, I’ll send it over to you before it goes out so you can look at ABC,” or “I’ll handle ABC when it comes up, and then, if I have any questions, I’ll reach out to you.”

      And then, once you have some boundaries about where and when she’s going to be involved (which you can set collaboratively, if she really wants to be in the mix on something), it’s easier to point out when she’s overstepping the boundaries. Like, “I thought we agreed that I would handle XYZ, so I’m confused about why you emailed so-and-so about it.”

      This is also a good time to set up boundaries about how you want to communicate. So, “I would prefer if you stopped sending me to-do lists, and instead we set up a regular meeting to check in and make sure nothing’s falling off the radar” or something like that.

      FWIW, there are some cases where it makes sense to check in on something that’s due three months from now, like, if it takes three months to do the work, or if there have habitually been delays that mean you really have to get the ball rolling early. So, it might also be worth having a discussion about that from a place of curiosity. Like, “I was thinking I wouldn’t need to start this until DATE, but you seem to think I need extra lead time on it. Is there any reason why?” because there might be a reason. Or there might not be. But it’s worth finding out.

    3. Alphabet Pony*

      and I can tell her to back off when I need to.

      This is an interesting and unexpected thing for your boss to say, in my experience anyway – I wouldn’t dream of saying this about anyone at my workplace because it wouldn’t be necessary. So I wonder if your boss said this because they anticipated this helicopter act?

      I would talk to your boss. While this woman is the only person who knows the subject matter and can do the trainings and information, it doesn’t mean you can’t talk to your boss about how you work in general – they can still weigh in on things like her butting in and emailing people about things you’re leading on. Tell your boss what’s going on, and how they want you to handle it. I honestly don’t think you need to just cope with her without support from anyone.

  171. Youth*

    Rats! I forgot I had a question for today.

    Do any of you use HARO at work, either from the reporter end or from the source end? If from the reporter end–have you found tricks for getting good responses for your queries? If from the source end–have you found tricks for getting your comments featured in publications?

    1. Alphabet Pony*

      Ex-reporter here. I used HARO a couple of times for US stuff (I’m in the UK) and thought it was pretty good but I mostly have experience with UK equivalents like Gorkana and DWPub.

      Why do you want to know – just curious as it’s not clear what you’re really wanting? If you ask this again next week, I think it would be good if you explained some context for your question – and also I feel like you’re missing a trick here by not asking reporters about what is most likely to get your comments published. Because they’ll have the best idea of what actually works, not what people think will work.

      I ran a few media training workshops and would ask people what they thought was the number one reason why their comment would or wouldn’t get used. It was very rare for anyone to actually give the correct answer even though it would seem blindingly obvious to a reporter.

      The answer is not: your comment was most interesting.

      The answer is: being the quickest to respond.

      If you want your comment to go in, you need to reply quickly with something relevant to the actual query, not offer something for another story instead (no you can’t just mention it, it happens too often and journalists are generally completely exasperated by it), not reply after the deadline, and not try to insist they mention a specific product and then send them angry emails demanding to know what’s in it for them when they say that’s not how it works (that’s a specific example, the rest aren’t).

      As a reporter I found that no matter how clear I was about the publication, deadline and ask, I would get random crap. My top tip is therefore to report the random crap to whoever runs the service.

      1. Youth*

        Hmm, that’s a good point. About asking a reporter what makes it most likely to get published, I mean.

        A few months ago, I took a job copywriting for a website on a niche topic. Part of my job is increasing my EAT by 1) offering expert commentary on other topical articles and 2) getting quotes from other field experts for my own articles. So far, I’ve had decent success, but I’d like a broader perspective on others who’ve done the same.

  172. AvonLady Barksdale*

    I asked this as part of another post a few weeks ago, but I’m going to get specific: I work from home and I need a new office chair. I don’t want my company to pay for it because I want to keep it after I leave, so I would like to spend $200 or less (so no Aeron or Steelcase, sorry to say). There are a few on Amazon that look pretty good and have good reviews, but does anyone have a personal recommendation?

    My current chair is unpadded and armless; it’s made of wood and I got it from World Market five years ago. It’s a lovely chair, but it does nothing for my back and my sciatica has been acting up. It also rolls too much. I’m looking for:

    – Padding
    – Mesh back, preferably with lumbar support
    – Adjustable, though it does not need to recline
    – Optional casters; we may get a rug in here at some point, but for now I’m on a hardwood floor
    – Nice-to-haves: adjustable arms, a color other than black (I’m partial to gray)

    Please help! I’m lucky in that I have other places I can go where I can sit more comfortably for long periods of time, but I would like to be in a situation where working from my home office all day doesn’t hurt.

    1. New Job So Much Better*

      We like the Broyhill Big & Tall chair, very comfortable and sturdy. Not sure about colors.

    2. Buttons*

      On Amazon search CUBOC Ergonomic Mesh Office Chair, Mid Back Swivel Task Chair, Ergonomic Curved Back Support Desk Computer Chair
      I just got this chair a few months ago, it was only $100 but feels like a really expensive chair. It is comfortable, easy to adjust, it feels supportive. My butt and back aren’t hurting.

    3. it happens*

      I know you said under $200, but what if you could have an awesome chair for $250?
      I was in a similar situation a few years ago and due to back issues really needed the good chair, but not interested in spending $1,000. Madison Seating has very low-priced good office chairs (I do not know if they are prior season or what the deal is.) I got a Knoll Life chair (fully-adjustable and comfy) for $350. Just checked their website and now they have one for $239, free shipping. I’ve had my chair three years, it’s still awesome.

    4. Mym*

      Look for furniture stores that handle rental or surplus goods in your area. I got an amazing chair like you are describing (except that it is black) for $90 from an Aaron’s rental about ten years ago – they were selling assets from an insurance company that had closed. Unfortunately I don’t remember the brand of the chair, but it has served me very well.

  173. Eric*

    So what is the deal with recruiters? I’ve been getting 5-6 calls a day for the past week. I haven’t changed anything on my LinkedIn (it’s set to “not looking”).

    I emailed one guy back after he and another person from his recruiting agency called me 3 times back asking them to not call me again and for them to take me off their candidate list, and the guy’s response was “no can do! We don’t “have a list.”” How can you think that response is gonna win you any business???

    I’m genuinely curious why recruiters cold call.

    1. T. Boone Pickens*

      I’m guessing that the reason for the uptick in calls is there must be a block of recruiting agencies that work with a big client and a new requisition came out that possibly syncs up with your background so you’re getting hounded right now.

      I’m not sure why the recruiting agency is lying to you, they all have candidate databases and it’s frankly super condescending that they weren’t able to interpret ‘list’ versus ‘candidate database’. Almost every candidate CRM I’ve worked with had some kind of way to identify how interested candidates were in looking for new jobs.

      As for recruiters doing cold calling, I personally don’t think it really works anymore. Now, cold contacting via LinkedIn/email? I’ll do that all day. The only time I’m cold calling a candidate anymore is if a client of mine has hired me to specifically poach you.

      1. Eric*

        > I’m not sure why the recruiting agency is lying to you, they all have candidate databases and it’s frankly super condescending that they weren’t able to interpret ‘list’ versus ‘candidate database’. Almost every candidate CRM I’ve worked with had some kind of way to identify how interested candidates were in looking for new jobs.

        I’m located in NYC and have about 10 years of experience in software engineering and data science.

        My understanding is that job openings have outnumbered candidates for a while now.

        That makes me understand why this guy would be disappointed with a “I don’t work with recruiters who cold call because it makes my colleagues think I’m planning to leave and it disrupts my day. I’ve gotten three calls from your firm today alone, so please take me off your internal candidate lists. Thanks.” (maybe a little rude but less rude than blowing up my phone) but there is no reason to take that as an invitation to debate me on it.

        FWIW, I have no problem with recruiters! I am glad to talk to them if I am looking or if I can refer a friend to them. The only reason I pick up my phone at work is because I’m the emergency contact for my elderly parents.

    2. The New Wanderer*

      Glassdoor review for that agency. That’s ridiculous, you already made it clear you won’t do business with them so what could they possibly gain by not confirming they won’t call again.

  174. SlimChances*

    Due to upper management issues, I left my previous position this February. In my prior position, my director recommended me as her replacement when she resigned. Due to the aforementioned management issues, the position was never even posted, even a year later. With the exception of four employees, everyone on my team has since departed.

    Now the position has been posted. Had I stayed, I’m almost certain I would be one of the top candidates, but due to management turnover, I have not worked with anyone on the interview panel. Sue, who stayed behind and had been angling for a management position throughout the six years we worked together, has been working closely with all three members of the interview panel for six months. Her work is good, but she’s known for being very difficult to work with at times and two previous managers have requested that she not be assigned to their projects. However, I’ve been told she’s made a great impression on new management, and based on the job description, there are some signs that the posting was written for her. Management has been generously rewarding the people who stayed on the team with raises and promotions, so it’s possible she already unofficially has the position.

    We work in a small town and in a specific field so if I applied and didn’t get the position, it would negatively affect my current and potentially future situation in several ways. Is it worth applying for this position? It’s exactly the position I’ve always hoped for, but my chances appear to be slim.

      1. SlimChances*

        Are you referring to where I referenced potential negative consequences? That would be due to my current management knowing that I interviewed outside the office after they recently recruited me. In addition, Sue has told a mutual colleague that she doesn’t want me to apply so I’m not sure what would happen if I did and then they selected her.

        1. The Francher Kid*

          Honestly, I can’t see any good reason to apply. It sounds like the reasons you left the old job are still there, and even a job you’ve always hoped for wouldn’t protect you from the effects of what sounds like a dysfunctional workplace. Plus, you run the risk of negatively impacting your current situation just by applying. I don’t see any way this would have a good outcome.

          1. SlimChances*

            There are very, very few opportunities for promotion in my area, and this position offers a unique combination of responsibilities that really interest me and would be ~35% increase in pay.

            That said, I’m pretty sure I won’t apply due to the probable consequences. Thanks for replying.

      2. Colette*

        I meant a place where they don’t fill a position for over a year, and which you refer to (twice!) as having “management issues”. You don’t seem to have liked management there – do you really want to go back?

        1. SlimChances*

          Oh, I see what you mean. I should have clarified that most of the problematic executives have been moved to a different area or left to join outside organizations, so there is a new set of leaders in that section.

          I don’t know how much things have changed under new leadership, so your question is still one I need to consider. Thank you!

    2. MissDisplaced*

      Don’t go back. Move forward.
      I know it can be hard to let it go if you liked the work, but it sounds like all the issues are still there.

  175. Chocolate Teapot*

    Back to work after a week’s holiday and in my absence, it turns out plans are underway to restructure the company. Specifically my role would be moved from my current department into a different one, which might make more sense, given the work I do, but I like working in the department where I currently work.

    Apparently this restructuring will not occur for a good 6 months, but has anyone else been through something similar?

    1. ..Kat..*

      I recommend finding out what your potential new manager is like. And if you don’t like their style of management, start job hunting.

  176. AnonyMark*

    I have been in my current position for just shy of six years. Within about 2 months of hiring me, another employee with the same amount of experience (none) was hired on. As contractors, our team is split between two companies. the other new hire and I work in the same city, in the same office, doing the same job. We just get our paycheck from different people.

    Coming in I knew that the other employee made a couple of thousand dollars more than me, but my company offered a few more days of vacation as well as separate sick leave. I figured it was all even.

    My immediate supervisor (who has no control over our pay) has been working on his own to get us raises. While the other employee’s company did give him a raise and more vacation, mine did not. I know form speaking with the other employee that he now makes between 15% and 20% more than I do and has an equal amount of leave. Its not even close to evening out any longer. I spent this past year trying to put myself in a strong position to specifically ask for a raise, with support from my immediate supervisor.

    As it turns out, we are being laid off soon. Our supervisor is angling to have the whole team moved to another company that is looking to start up a team, and wants to pitch our team as a group. I think this is great, if it works.

    My supervisor and his second in command are coaching us on what to expect. One thing they mentioned is that we should request a salary that is 10% to 15% more than our current salary. I would honestly like to even out our pay scales with this move, but a 10% increase for my coworker is a 30% increase for me at the moment. Will this turn employers off? How can I address this?

    1. MissBliss*

      I would pitch it as being about pay equity, and how, had you been at the same company, you would’ve been paid more equitably before. Now that you’re angling to be at the same company, it makes sense.

    2. SlimChances*

      Would a 30% increase for you still be within the industry standards for your position?

    3. Alex*

      Who knows what here?

      Does your supervisor realize that there is a giant pay disparity? Because this would be a good time to tell him/remind him. They’re probably saying that you should ask for 10-15% more because that is a number that “sounds reasonable” but may be forgetting or doesn’t know about the current disparity.

      I’d just bring it up and say that given the history, you think it is fair for both you and the coworker to ask for the same general amount, since you both have the same amount of experience and do the same job.

      1. AnonyMark*

        Thank you!

        I decided to catch the second in command before leaving today (because we are friendlier and she is the one that provided the original 10% – 15% number). I had been afraid to directly address this because although my coworker told me his salary, he asked me not to outright say that.

        The second in command originally stuck to the 10%-15%. I did manage to lay out a case for knowing he was making a good deal more than I was, I asked if we could blatantly request the same salary. She kept to 10% – 15%.

        I finally bluntly said “I make $x and suspect he makes at least $y based on the fact that I know he got a raise, and know his starting salary”.

        The second in command said “You make $x? Our new hires make more than that now. Yes ask for the same amount, we will back you.”

  177. Carol Danvers (with a C)*

    Hi everyone,
    Fairly low stakes question here – I deal fairly regularly (like, once every two weeks) with a temp that we have out on placement, and every time that she emails me, she misspells my name slightly (one letter different, and the way that she misspells it is probably the more common spelling). I haven’t corrected her on it yet, and I don’t think that she’s doing it on purpose as some kind of weird passive-aggressive power move, and is probably out of absent-mindedness (even though my name is spelled correctly in my email signature and my email address). If I sent her the following email the next time that we corresponded, would it be appropriate?
    “Dear Maria,
    Thank you for sending me your timesheet. Can I ask a favour for the next time we correspond – my name is spelled with a C, rather than a K as you have been previously spelling it. Going forward, can I ask that you spell my name correctly? I would really appreciate this.
    Have a great day,
    Carol”
    Would that be appropriate, or is this such a small thing that I should probably just let it go?

    1. anna green*

      I actually think that’s too many words about it. Makes it sound way too formal. Just a quick “Hey just FYI my name is spelled with a C not a K” or something like that is better.

        1. valentine*

          I would BLUF, lest she see the first sentence in preview and not even open the message:
          My name is spelled with a C. It’s Carol*. Going forward, can I ask that you spell my name correctly?

          Thank you for sending me your timesheet.

          *If you think she’s like the person who addressed a mailpiece “Pheven”.

    2. CatCat*

      I think it’s polite and appropriate. If I were Maria, I would want to know I’d fallen in this habit, at any rate. My guess is that Maria knows one more more Karols and that’s been a sort of absent-minded default.

      1. Tina Belcher's Less Cool Sister*

        When I was a kid I spent a lot of time with a woman whose name was pronounced Sasha but spelled Saacha. When I met another Sasha years later it took ages to stop trying to spell her name with two a’s and a c!

    3. Annabelle*

      I’m probably on the more sensitive side of things, but if I received that email, I would think that you were irked with me and that I had made a bigger mistake than I actually had. I would rather receive an email along the lines of “Thank you for sending me your timesheet. (Also- it’s Carol with a C!) Have a great day!” Although, I can see this being be too informal for some offices…

      1. Environmental Compliance*

        Yeah, as someone who often gets the C instead of a K, I usually just do it as a “by the way” rather than a formal statement.

    4. Donkey Hotey*

      I’d use the “oh by the way” bit mentioned above with the addition of making peace with the fact that she may not ever get it.

    1. Really Anon*

      This happened at a place I worked. Twice. The boss was an idiot. The fact he twice refused to let people quit makes me think it will happen again, and probably with similar stunning results.

      1. Pat wanted to quit. Boss said “just stick it out a little while longer.” Pat hates the job so much it led to a serious mental health breakdown involving self-harm. Pat was hospitalized, and was never heard from again.

      2. Piper wanted to quit. Boss said “just stick it out a little while longer.” (This was several years later; Pat & Piper don’t know each other) Piper became so increasingly bitter and felt very unsupported. Piper, $250,000 in student debt, finally one day rage-quit with nothing lined up. Piper’s parting shot was “I’d rather die destitute from student loans than spend one more minute in this place.”

      2.a. The day Piper blew out, Perkins also gave notice, indicating a new job. 2500 miles away. Where Perkins knows no one. Perkins subsequently mentioned offhand it would be better to go blindly across a continent than stay one more day.

  179. QueenBee*

    My very small (under 15 employees total) workplace is having MAJOR interpersonal and interdepartment issues. It’s been glossed over pretty heavily for over a year now and despite some very expensive and not really helpful communication coaching, is pretty dysfunctional. Meetings regularly become warzones, projects are forgotten about, people are snappy, cliques are forming, its a disaster. Does anyone have any suggestions for some sort of team building or something we can do to help?

    1. Buttons*

      This isn’t a team-building issue, this a leadership and culture issue. No amount of team building is going to fix this. In theory, this would be something leaders are talking about and trying to address. A company that small likely doesn’t have any organizational development/talent development/HR people equipped to handle such disfunction, and I am guessing they don’t have the money or knowledge to go outside to find a culture change vendor. You can go to changeleadersnetwork dot com to read about culture change and to check out their free resources page. But something like this is going to have to be met head-on, with an entire shift corporate attitude and culture. Good luck!

    2. periwinkle*

      Agreed – team building is not going to help. Your company’s culture is poisonous. The leader’s actions dictate how everyone else will behave, and there’s not enough pizza in the world to fix an org where negative behaviors are rewarded and positive behaviors are ignored or even punished.

      The leaders has to change how she acts and what she rewards. If she tolerates, rewards, and/or instigates conflict and favoritism, that’s what her org will be like. If you’re in a position to influence a behavioral change at the top, maybe you can fix things that way.

    3. ..Kat..*

      I think a resume and cover letter writing class would be a good team building event.

  180. Amber*

    Hi everyone,
    I have been working in the advertising industry for 10 years. An ex-coworker of mine said his company was looking for someone with advertising experience. I had an informal call with HR where he mentioned there wasn’t yet a job description in place, but they know they want someone with an advertising background to help with clients. Everything sounded good and so we scheduled a more formal interview for early the next week.

    A few days before the interview, the HR person sent over the job description. In bold text under the required skills, it mentioned wanting someone with experience in platforms A & B. I only have experience with C & D. I emailed, letting them know my current experience but that I would be capable of learning A & B.

    I didn’ hear back from HR, but got an angry email from my ex-coworker about how unprofessional it was for me to tell them I didn’t have the experience they were looking for and how it made her look bad. I told her, had I known they were looking someone with experience I didn’t have, I wouldn’t have had her connect me with HR in the first place.

    Was I wrong to inform HR before we got further into the interview process? Is it weird that they’re discussing our conversations with the co-worker who put me in touch in the first place.

    1. CatCat*

      You were right to inform HR. If this was a deal breaker for them, no need for you and them to keep spending your time on this.

      I do think it’s weird that HR discussed your candidacy in such detail with ex-coworker.

      Your ex-coworker is way out of line. I have no idea how this could make her look bad unless SHE had said you had A&B experience. In which case, well, yeah, she should look bad, but that’s on her.

  181. I’m new here*

    First time/long time

    I have a question about applicant tracking systems. I’m currently unemployed and have to participate in various required activities to keep qualifying. When I’ve met with people from the Department of Workforce Development (DWD) they talk a lot about these systems. They say that they’ll look for key words or phrases and sort you in or out of contention for jobs. I know there are ways to search for key words (people on here asking about putting key words in white font on their resume) but didn’t really realize how possibly unsophisticated these systems are (only accepting specific phrases).

    Does anyone have experience with these systems or know how truly limited they are? It’s making me feel like all the positions I’ve applied to in the last month or so were busts cause I didn’t have a very specific phrase on my resume.

    Somewhat related, when I said that I enter all zeros for my previous/desired salary (something I’ve seen Alison recommend), they said that might be an automatic rejection. Should I at least start putting something in for desired? (I refuse to put in previous salary.)

    Thanks!

    1. NewNameTemporarily*

      I don’t know about the salary. I do know that our giant system (and we have over 10,000 employees nationwide), auto-rejected me for a job almost identical to the one I am doing now… because I used the industry terms for our work, and not the exact word/phrases in the job description in my on-line application. Think “Mug of coffee” (being the word they were internally looking for) instead of “cup of coffee” (industry term).

      So now I know to go through the listing, make a copy of my resume, and use their exact KEY WORDS instead of the industry correct words.

      Because, yeah, 20 years of experience “Managing cups of coffee” plus an MBA for a job that requires 5 years of experience “managing mugs of coffee” with “MBA preferred” is grounds for rejection. And you don’t have – apparently – an HR department that looks at internal applicants with human eyes. Even at this pay level.

  182. quirkypants*

    I’ve been doing a lot of hiring lately and most of the time I do a quick google for candidates, mostly because I am looking for their LinkedIn profile and anything related to the work we do come up (I work in tech and digital marketing). If a Twitter account or some other public social media comes up in Google, I take a quick peek.

    I’m not going through post-by-post but mostly looking to see if they post about things related to our industry or if I can get a sense of their writing/communication skills and how tech savvy they might be.

    The other day, I had the thought, what if I came across something that I found objectionable on their social media. I’m mostly thinking pretty blatant and overt homophobia, racism, anti-immigrant stuff. From one point of view, I know that it’s possible that I am interviewing people with those beliefs who just don’t post about them on public forums but on the other hand, I have people who report to me who are POC, queer, immigrants, etc. (And I’m out and queer, too).

    I think it would be very hard for me not to be biased against those candidates… what do you folks think?

    I’m also wondering at what point it *might* be fair to draw a line? Like, posting an article about “why isn’t there a straight pride?” (I would probably roll my eyes but not have it bias me) vs. what if I found out that one of the applicants was one of the folks who recently protested a pride event, carried bats, wore helmets, and *surprise* it ended up getting violent when they attacked someone.

    This is an honestly theoretical question but I realized it could happen!

    1. SlimChances*

      I was on an interview panel where we decided against hiring a woman, because she had a very visible blog wherein she frequently referenced how much she disliked working with women. It appeared to be an issue across many different jobs for her, and our team was 90% female at the time.

      1. irene adler*

        But then, where do you draw the line? If this is just a mind-set, then so what? IF she’s harmed female co-workers, then yes, pass her by. What entitles an employer to judge the thoughts of their employees?

        If my blog contained statements such as “I dislike the color blue” throughout, would you subsequently opt not to hire me if your break room walls were painted robin’s egg blue (assuming I fit the bill job-wise in all other respects)?

        Assuming this woman was qualified to perform the job, why not interview her? Then make some innocuous comment about the company being 90 % female when you talk about your company during the interview (along with other relevant facts-industry leader, etc. that folks talk about during an average interview). Then let HER decide if she’s comfortable working in your 90% female environment. She may self-select out.

        Now, I going to give this woman the benefit of the doubt that she’s a professional and is not going to say or do anything unprofessional when interacting with the female co-workers. If you find she’s harming the company culture with her dislike of working with other women, then sure, counseling is in order, along with eventual firing if she continues.

        There’s a lot of things I loathe about more than a few of my co-workers, but I’m not going to be anything less than polite, professional, helpful and friendly to all of them. But I am not ever going to socialize with them outside of work.

        1. Alex*

          I think this depends on how many other candidates you have. No one is entitled to a job, or a chance at interviewing for a job, no matter how extremely qualified they are. For many jobs, there will be plenty of qualified candidates who won’t even get invited for an interview.

          Why, if there’s even a squeak of something that could possibly be a flag with a bit of red on it, invite someone when there are plenty of other people to invite?

          If you’re not getting so many candidates, then yeah, you may need to be less picky and choose someone who has a negative. But that’s the case with any negative aspect of someone, from a possible personality clash to slightly less experience than you wanted.

          1. SlimChances*

            Yes, I think that social media presence must be taken into account within a more wholistic assessment of a candidate. In the case I noted, we actually did interview the woman and did not see her blog until doing a web search of a project she’d mentioned during the interview. Her blog was the second search result, and we all felt like there were multiple red flag. There were better candidates, so that wasn’t the sole reason. But it didn’t help her case.

    2. Mediamaven*

      Frankly I feel like if you are doing the hiring and it would make you uncomfortable then it’s not really a question of fair. Just don’t hire them. It’s not discrimination as far as I’m concerned!

    3. Alex*

      I don’t see anything wrong with not hiring someone based on what you think they might feel as a result of their posts.

      As long as it is not something that is protected (religion, sexual orientation, reproductive status, etc.) it is perfectly OK to think “Hm, that article makes me think this person might be racist. Probably not a good fit for our team that is very diverse.”

      I wouldn’t call that “bias.” That implies that you are unfairly weighing some factors that shouldn’t hold weight. Knowing whether or not someone is racist, homophobic, etc. is pretty important information to judge how they might change the work dynamic.

      I feel like people forget that while we are free to say anything we want, that doesn’t mean freedom from all consequences of our speech. You say racist s**t, people might not want to hire you! Oh well.

      1. KR*

        Yesss! Freedom of speech doesn’t mean people can’t get mad at you or decide not to do business with you, it means the government can’t limit your speech or lock you up for what you say. Louder for the people in back!!!

        1. quirkypants*

          Thank you both, I think this is she my gut was taking me but I had guilt about it.

          I mostly find discussions of culture fit kind of weak, but in the case of summertime who harbours discriminatory or hateful feelings about fellow staff would be a pretty clear bad fit.

          1. ..Kat..*

            Before you rule a candidate out based on their social media, please make sure that it is THEIR social media. For example, there are other people out there named “..Kat..” who have very different lifestyles than I do.

    4. KR*

      I think it’s definitely ok to not hire this person if they a) identify themselves by their full name on social media and b) post stuff that is clearly inflammatory/trolling in a way that makes it clear they have racist or sexist or xenophobic beliefs (I’m sure you know what type of Twitter users I’m talking about). Think of it this way – you’re working with a customer or outside agency or someone internally and they Google this person, maybe go to write an email and accidentally type it in their browser search bar, or are looking for this person’s LinkedIn and stumble on their social media and notice these type of remarks. I don’t think you want that type of attitude associated with your company and it’s even worse if they have a public LinkedIn and have their full name and work place linked to their horrible opinions with some basic googling.

    5. Auddish*

      In my opinion, there’s nothing wrong with disqualifying someone during the hiring process based on the content of their public social media page. The internet is a public space, and if someone chooses to post something inflammatory, then they’re also choosing to deal with consequences from that action. I would treat it the same as if I saw them airing those opinions out loud in public. If their opinions conflict with the values of your organization/team, the job might not be a good fit.

    6. Seven hobbits are highly effective, people*

      One thing to think about not brought up yet: how do you know that it’s really them? My father has a very common first name/last name pair, to the point that there were a double-digit number of them in our phone book (back when we had phone books) and there have been several times when we’ve gotten calls from debt collectors looking for someone else, and one time back in the 1980s when no one would take his checks because one of his fellow-names was passing bad checks all over town (back when people still wrote checks). I’m sure there is at least one person with this particular name combination saying something objectionable online.

      Also, sometimes people make fake social media profiles for their “friends” (people who do this are not your friends) as a “joke”, so that’s something to watch out for as well. Nowadays, bots will also copy profile pictures and/or names to their bot accounts. :(

  183. Leela*

    Anyone had luck overhauling their company’s training process when they aren’t the ones who make that decision directly? I feel like I keep running into the same set of problems every time I have a new job with regards to training which are:

    1) not having a formal checklist of what needs to be covered and instead having the trainer cover the vague concept of “stuff”
    2) not making sure that the person you’re having train someone is actually skilled at training or communication
    3) not making sure that the person you’re having train someone isn’t so overloaded that they’re flying through what they’re doing and constantly stopping in the middle of it to answer e-mails or get something else done, making it very difficult for the trainee to pull out the actual process from what’s happening so they can do it on their own from here on out
    4) having the trainee look over the trainer’s shoulder when they’re learning a new software, instead of having the trainee actually be clicking on things to help with muscle memory/repetition learning
    5) bailing on proper training because your company has wikis/documentation
    6) having said documentation not kept up to date, or be under review for whether it’s usable by someone with no context
    7) not giving the trainee enough information but rather lightly touching on a subject and then thinking that it’s actually been covered with the trainee

    1. ContemporaryIssued*

      I think it’s great somebody in your organisation is thinking about these questions because in my company, nobody is..

      Points 1 to 4 and 7 are definitely issues that my boss has when “training” new employees for our various local offices. Because she’s overloaded (point #3) she has shifted a lot of her training duties onto me, which is fine, because I do know the job and like to think I’m good at communication and teaching. But it bothers me we don’t have a process or a checklist for this. There’s a vague “you need to know these 3 programs, you need to learn how to ask these specific questions when putting down a task in system X, you need to be careful when doing tasks A, B and C” sort of list floating around out there but no real list with a specific program on what order to learn things in, what kind of schedule you should learn them in.

      One of my former co-workers said she learned absolutely nothing from my boss’ training her, and learned everything by doing the job AND by asking me and our other co-worker on how to do things. My boss has talked about writing down a specific guide on how new employees should be trained BUUUUT she has no time.

  184. UnderwaterOphelia*

    Question: If a candidate says they’re planning on moving to your state if they get a job here, but is currently still in another state, would you give them the time of day or stick to interviewing the local candidates? The job we’re hiring for only gets paid about 30K, which is okay pay for our area but not worth moving for.

    1. Retail not Retail*

      Do it – there are other factors to a move that they may not share with you.

      1. valentine*

        Tell them the salary sooner than you might otherwise, but don’t to pass on an Elizabeth West.

    2. Tina Belcher's Less Cool Sister*

      Absolutely interview them, but also do them the courtesy of stating the salary up front – they might be moving for other reasons but this would allow them to self-select out if they do need a certain wage to make the move worthwhile. Also let them know in the initial interview whether you can offer any sort of relocation assistance or if you don’t offer that.

      1. The New Wanderer*

        Yes – if the salary is not already listed in the posting (in which case the candidates are interested anyway), then tell them in the first conversation.

    3. Alphabet Pony*

      I would do two things: be transparent about salary, and trust that if they’re applying it means the move will make sense for them.

    4. Miss Pantalones en Fuego*

      I would imagine that the person wants to move for reasons they didn’t feel were necessary to disclose (like wanting to be near a sick family member, or a significant other, or whatever). As long as they are not asking for moving costs that your company can’t provide I would consider them and clarify their expectations.

  185. Crossover Work & Personal Question*

    Oops, late to the party. Regular commenter here with a maybe-identifying question…

    I manage a childcare program within a large nonprofit, and have many excellent childcare providers who work for me. I am getting married next year, and am in the early stages of planning. Many of my relatives have small children who they will likely want childcare for if they come to the wedding. Is it ethically okay to ask some of my best employees if I can share their contact info with these relatives as childcare options, and just let them make arrangements independently? Or, if I decide I want to provide on-site childcare at the wedding venue, is it ethically okay to ask some of my best employees to be the providers for that (paying them from my own funds at market rate, obviously, no connection to my employer or impact on their employment)?

    I’ve combed through my employer’s policies and didn’t see anything that would prevent this… but I wanted to check if it’s generally ethically aboveboard before I dig in with HR to see if it’s really okay per policy.

    1. Tina Belcher's Less Cool Sister*

      Congratulations! I think it depends on the culture of your team, and honestly your family too. I recall Alison answering similar questions with the caveat that it’s probably fine but it would make things horribly complicated should things go awry, and then you’re caught in the middle between your family and your staff if, say, your aunt thinks your employee didn’t pay enough attention to the kids or your employee feels you should have paid a higher wage but was too shy to tell you and now will let resentment fester. Also think about whether your employees would truly feel comfortable telling you no if you ask them to work for you on the “biggest day of your life”. On the other hand, if you know they look for babysitting/childcare work outside of your organization, it would probably be super low key for you to mention you might know of some potential clients and ask if your employees want you to connect them (and provided you trust your family members to pay market wage and not try to get a “family” discount from the employees).

      All that said, I work at a college and everyone I know regularly hires students to babysit, dog sit, house sit, etc, and usually at under market wages. It’s a little different because they’re not my coworkers per se, and students are almost always looking for easy ways to make extra money, but I see it all the time and it almost always goes great for both parties.

      1. Buttons*

        Congratulations!!! Tina Belcher’s Less Cool Sister (fantastic name) gave great advice. My biggest concern would be if they felt they couldn’t say no or if there was a conflict. I’d be more inclined to offer onsight childcare at your wedding and then in a staff meeting, or email, or on a notice on your employee board- state you are wanting 2 people to offer childcare on date/time for $$ per hour, and if anyone is interested to please let you know. And then leave it at that. I am sure someone will jump in.
        When I worked for a university I would often send an email to all the student workers in my department and ask if anyone was interested in dog/house sitting, but I sent it out to everyone and didn’t ask people directly.

        1. valentine*

          Don’t do it. Call an agency close to the venue or ask the planner or someone from the venue for a recommendation.

    2. The Man, Becky Lynch*

      It’s good you looked through the policies but you should also just for good measure ask your management team about it. Just to confirm what you assume, you know? That would save yourself so much grief in the end if someone is all “It’s not a written thing because we hadn’t thought of it…but it’s something we don’t like.” You know?

      Then if they’re on board, it’s completely okay to put it out there in an offering of a “side job” setup. Kind of like you saying “Hey so I need some child care providers for my friends/fam for my wedding. And of course I thought of you and wanted to give you first choice, otherwise I completely understand and I will find another person through other avenues. But just in case it’s something you’re interested in, I wanted to give you first dibs!”

      That way you’re letting them know that it’s optional, it’s very much just an offering but you have that Plan B option right there to go to if they decline for whatever reason they may think to.

    3. Seven hobbits are highly effective, people*

      If the people you work with also have an established business taking such weekend gigs, I see no major issue with you hiring them to do so in this case. Being one of many one-off clients in an established business doesn’t strike me as particularly problematic since you’re not really asking them for anything they don’t generally do.

      However, if they usually don’t take on outside work independently, I wouldn’t ask them to. They may not be set up to take on side gigs in terms of having a business set up, having the proper insurance, and so on, and that’s a big hassle to get right for a single event. (I wouldn’t want to use someone without the correct insurance and licensing for a group childcare situation.) There are several different services you could contract with to provide group childcare where you’d know they had all of their insurance-ducks in a row, and that’s the direction I’d recommend to minimize potential problems.

  186. Catsaber*

    My boss sent me a meeting invite for an impromptu 1 one 1 that will occur in about 15 min and I’m trying not to freak out. I have no reason to freak out – he’s a great boss, he knows how to give feedback constructively, and the last 2 times we’ve had these private 1:1 meetings, I got huge surprise raises. But I am an anxious person with imposter syndrome ratcheted up to 11, and always feel like I’m 5 seconds away from getting fired. DEEP BREATHS!!!

      1. Catsaber*

        Thank you :) It was completely harmless. He asked me to help with a presentation for next week. Was kind of hoping it was another surprise raise, but oh well!

        1. Mellow*

          I really wish bosses would more sensitive to these things, as in this case, say, “I’d like a 1:1 with you in a few minutes to talk about your helping me with a presentation.”

          In this age of gig economy, downsizing, and general, pervasive economic uncertainty – which is what the shrinking middle class is experiencing – is such sensitivity really too much to ask?

          I’m happy for you, of course, Catsaber, but your boss could be a bit more transparent. So could mine, for that matter.

  187. Anon for Today*

    I know there’s an idea in some industries that the One and Only True Career Progression is to go from being an individual contributor to managing people. And I know there’s a bias toward showing ever-increasing responsibility, including managing ever bigger teams and budgets. My question is how to talk and think about moving from a people management role into a non-people management one.

    I’ve been at my CurrentCompany for six years, and in that time have moved from an individual technical contributor to a team lead to a mid-level manager. I’m now about to move into a pair of related roles: A kind of project/systems manager role, and a team lead on a hugely visible and strategically important business initiative. (I think I’m the only team lead on that project that isn’t a Director or Vice President). I’m super excited about this new opportunity and the chance to add a ton of value for the business, and I think it’ll open up some other very interesting opportunities for me at my company. But I’m thinking about how someone looking at my resume would view this move, because I won’t be directly managing people for these roles.

    What do you all think? Is that move one people will look at negatively? It’s a huge amount of responsibility (and a huge measure of my company’s trust in me), but will people view it as a “step down” because it’s not a people leadership role? If so, is being able to talk about the enormous strategic impact it has on the company enough to counter that perception? I’m going to accept the new roles either way, because they’re work I’ll be good at and be able to make a difference with, but I’m just curious what you all think.

    1. Buttons*

      Congratulations, that sounds really exciting! From what you are describing I don’t think it would be seen as a negative. I think the way you write the job description in your resume it will be clear that this was an exciting role, with a very strategic role within your company. I love to see that kind of experience, and I like to see people move into various roles within an organization- it shows me they took an active interest not only in their career but in learning their company and business in different capacities (which makes for much better leaders in the long run).
      In my company, we actively encourage these kinds of role changes for people who have been identified as high-potential. I want my most senior leaders to not have only been a people leader in one area for the last 10 years, I want to see their contributions and that they have a bigger/greater knowledge of our company, industry, and customers than they would get by moving up in one business area. When we are career pathing and succession planning within my company, we look at a high-potential employee who has been say a SR Manager in one business area, but we want to grow their knowledge in another area, because the higher we want them to go, the more they need to not be a subject matter expert but an expert in all areas of the business and to have practical knowledge of strategy.
      Good luck!

  188. Bears Beets Battlestar*

    Has anyone ever worked for a friend? I’m applying for a new job that would be a good move for me, but the drawback is that my boss would be a good friend. I *think* we could maintain boundaries, but I’m hesitant to risk a friendship for a job.
    If you have managed or been managed by a friend, please share your experience. Good, bad or ugly!

    1. The Man, Becky Lynch*

      I’ve worked with my partner before as his supervisor and it was fantastic. We were professional and enjoyed working together because we both have the same expectations and work ethic.

      Do you know your friends expectations and how they work? That’s really key. If they are similar and click, it’s a wonderful dynamic and easy to keep professional away from personal.

      If they’re constantly complaining or bringing you work baggage right now that makes you fearful of what working there may be like, that would be a huge flag I’d pay attention to. But if they’re generally happy, like their job, like where they work and it all seems good. It’s worth at least sniffing around about.

      I’ve never seen a bad one up close, despite my bosses usually hiring people they know or people their already established crew knows in some way. This works because we aren’t dramatic people for the most part, the work is pretty straight forward and everyone pulls their weight.

      The horror stories come in when you don’t mesh right in professional aspects. They’re always upset or fussy or complaining to you about things that are none of your business or gossiping/backbiting or such.

      1. Bears Beets Battlestar*

        Thanks for the input! My friend was recently hired and we would be starting right around the same time, so I’m not sure about her work style or management style because it’s her first time in management. You’ve helped me clarify that now is probably not the best time, but it’s something to keep in mind if there’s an opening in the future.

    2. Gumby*

      I have worked for a friend, but he was my grand-boss so I didn’t report directly to him. The layer of insulation was probably helpful.

      While I think my friend and I did a pretty good job of keeping things in their proper spheres, sometimes our mutual friends were not so good and I was always mildly uncomfortable when people would, jokingly, say things like “Grandboss, you should let Gumby do such and so.” (Especially because many times the stuff they referenced wasn’t something he involved himself in – like when I took vacation or what exact hours I worked or whatever. My actual manager barely paid attention to that stuff much less the grandboss.)

    3. Alphabet Pony*

      I have. And I don’t recommend it. I enjoyed working with my friend, and we are still friends, so this isn’t a horror story. But it can make the friendship awkward in lots of small ways.

      Also, what happens if the friendship isn’t going great but you still need the person to be a reference? You can’t treat them like a normal reference. You have to maintain the friendship even if there’s some reason why you’d prefer to back off. I don’t want to back off from this friendship but I do now feel pressured to maintain it in a way I don’t like (what can I say, I just don’t like feeling pressured to do things and like I don’t have a choice), as she is one of my most recent managers.

      1. Bears Beets Battlestar*

        I had considered the professional relationship going south and how that could affect the friendship, but I hadnt considered it the other way. That’s helpful to think about. Thanks!

        1. ..Kat..*

          The professional and personal relationships can go south. I don’t recommend it. It is very hard to do.

    4. Mellow*

      I was once roommates with my boss, if you can believe that.

      We had an unspoken rule that we wouldn’t discuss work outside of work. I also made sure I was a good employee and she made sure treated me the same as she treated the four or five other staff. I remember once we had a serious issue arise at work while she was out of town on vacation. I picked her up at the airport as her roommate and kept quiet about it; she found out about the situation when she went in the next day. I know she appreciated that I hadn’t said anything.

      I’d say that ours was an outlier situation, but based on that, it really helps to know the other person and to go from there. Good luck! I hope it works out for both of you.

  189. bookwyrm*

    I started a new job at a tiny nonprofit a couple months ago – less than 10 people. Before this I was at a much larger nonprofit (several hundred people) and then another organization that was also a couple hundred people. Both my previous positions were heavy on guidelines, processes, and several layers of approval; I worked closely with a manager and although I was independent on large parts of my work I frequently ran strategy and tricky emails by my manager for her thoughts. Since my new place is so small, it’s very entrepreneurial, there was no on-boarding or orientation at all, and I have a large jump in responsibility as well (coordinator to program manager). I definitely underestimated how tough it would be. It’s in a field I have a background in, but I’ve been out of it for a few years so there is a steep knowledge learning/re-learning curve, and I am additionally struggling with the lack of guidance and having to be the person who makes the calls. I’ve definitely felt like I am floundering underwater and have so much anxiety/imposter syndrome/etc.

    Has anyone been in a similar situation and have tips on becoming more confident in your decisions?

    1. Lisa*

      Can you try looking at it from a potential consequences perspective, and then use that to inform your decisions or to have a backup plan. Something like, if I choose A over B, the risk is that B will turn out to have been cheaper in the long term. Someone could get upset about that down the road. To mitigate that, I will 1) double check my numbers to confirm that I really think A is the cost-effective solution 2) do an updated cost-benefit analysis in about three months 3) keep documentation of why this decision was made in case it gets questioned later 4) be transparent with my boss that I am only 80% confident this is the cheaper solution and it’s possible I’m wrong. This kind of thinking can get you out of a more emotional “But what if I’m wrong/dumb/green!?!?” and into a more pragmatic, “What is the best decision I can make with what I know today?”

    2. Alphabet Pony*

      Would it help to network with people in similar roles? Maybe even look for a mentor?

  190. Blargh*

    Can I ask my coworker to stop talking about his side-hustle?

    Not talking about sales or anything like that. He’s a landlord (self-described slumlord) who owns several single and multi-family homes that he rents out on the side. I think he only got into the business a year or two ago and apparently had no idea what he was doing. For example, he bought one property that came with a tenant already attached who was “in the process of being evicted” and assumed it would be an easy process to finish (it wasn’t.)

    We work in a very quiet cubicle farm where headphones aren’t an option. He talks about his problems with his tenants, half of which he’s trying to evict, ALL DAY LONG. The coworker he sits directly next to doesn’t seem to mind and even tries to offer him advice, but it’s driving me nuts having to hear him repeat the same thing over and over, which often amounts to rather disparaging comments about poor people, especially poor people who have multiple kids.

    Although he makes up hours he has to miss to deal with problem/attend court his quality of work has definitely slipped and he’s openly admitted that he’s distracted from dealing with this. This directly impacts my work as well.

    We both have two desks that are used for different parts of our jobs. To make matters worse, he recently opted to take over a desk that opened up in my office. Which means that I can no longer escape it. When I’m not in one room I now have to listen to him on the phone with his lawyer.

    Am I in the right to ask him not to bring his side-job problems into the workplace? I feel like that would be rude of me to ask that if he were just talking about issues with his private home, but this is essentially a choice he made to run a business while being employed full time. And I’m sick of hearing about it.

    1. The Man, Becky Lynch*

      I would tell him to stop talking constantly because it’s distracting.

      I would try to draw away from his “topics” and just say “Dude you’re talking way too much and it’s distracting me from my work.” [For the performance issues, bring that up to your boss, seriously that needs to be taken care of but it’s not yours to bring up.]

      Even if he was talking about kittens all day long, it’s not okay and it’s distracting. It’s taking away your ability to work. And that’s not okay. Especially since he doesn’t even allow you to escape. He’s only recently started doing this because he’s a *coughscumbagcough* and is just now thinking he’s going to make money off his horribleness. I mean congrats on him, buying bad investments and thinking you make much income off that stuff, but yeah, go him and his taking advantage of the disadvantaged and marginalized folks. Barf!

    3. Seven hobbits are highly effective, people*

      Seems like there are two issues here: him talking about his side-job at work, and him working on his side job at work (lawyer phone calls and such). The first is annoying, but it’s annoying in the same way that people who won’t shut up about their kickball league are annoying (with added him saying rude things about low income people) and may not be something that management would want to get involved in.

      On the other hand, working on a second job at work is the kind of thing that many employers would definitely be interested in hearing about, especially if it’s disruptive to coworkers as well as pulling his focus away from the work he’s being paid to do.

  191. Ginger Sheep*

    Mostly want to vent because there’s nothing anyone can do to help with the situation. I am an academic, and was just hired for one of these oh-so-rare tenure-track positions. In my hometown, in my alma mater. In a discipline which has on average less than one job posted per year. I should be overjoyed.
    So where’s the problem? First of all, my hire was incredibly drama-filled. Apparently, the head of the hiring committee was dead set for another candidate, and is very bitter that the majority went against his choice and selected me. So he has been less than helpful with me up to now. Then, the candidate which was ranked fourth is starting a litigation against my hire, stating that I was unfairly advantaged (it being my PhD university) and that he is the victim of age discrimination (he is indeed significantly older than candidates typically are). This is a state university and a civil servant position (I’m in Europe), so this litigation is actually possible : the committee must by the law hire the most qualified candidate. I’m not really worried about my hire – I am confident that I am indeed much more qualified for the job than he is; but all this is stressful and annoying.
    And just today I learned that I wouldn’t be having an office! There are apparently no free offices in the building at all, and they will just give me a desk in the shared PhD office for a year until someone retires in one year. In the shared PhD office! And how am I supposed to meet confidentially with students?
    To worsen things, I learnt at the same time that the university has no startup money for me – this is a field and a country in which academic hires do not typically get startup money for starting a lab, so I wasn’t counting on that, but I foolishly thought that I would be set up with a computer, a printer, and some software. Apparently not. I was told that if I wanted a computer I would have to negociate for one with my department head, whose budget is already badly overdrawn, and who was the head of the hiring committee, the one who didn’t want me hired. Or that I could use my own laptop. I am so angry I almost want to quit. I won’t, of course, but I am seething.
    And all this sounds like this is some sort of third world, very lowly university. I wish. It is actually an extremely well-known one, one which everyone in Europe (and quite a few people in the US) has heard of, ranked in my discipline in the top 25 of the world. I am so disappointed at everything right now that I just can’t manage to be even slightly happy to be off the job market.
    Sorry for the novel. And please, please, believe me. This is 100% true, even if it sounds outrageous.

    1. Buttons*

      I am so sorry! I will tell you that what you described is almost word for word the story of my last 3 friends who received a tenured position. One friend told me they got a credit card to buy themselves a laptop because their IVY league school didn’t have funds to give them a computer. One friend didn’t even get a shared space, they told her to use the student union WIFI. The cuts to education are insane.
      It is so hard to imagine!!

      1. Tenure Track (wasn't the one they wanted)*

        Okay. Good news. You have the position.
        Bad news- it looks like there are landmines from the start.
        In a past position, I had some very similar issues.
        Sounds crazy but it all worked out.
        I bought my own computer etc. Got a good discount through the University.Did freelance gigs to pay for it.
        The institution was super tight on all budget stuff. Travel etc.But the reputation of the institution was stellar so that I was able to leverage that position into one at a different place that didn’t have those financial constraints.
        Don’t worry about the law suit. You have the job now. Show them that you were the right choice.

        1. Ginger Sheep*

          Thank you Buttons and Tenure Track! Your comments were very helpful in calming me down and helping me realise I am not the only one in these circumstances. And Tenure Track, you are right : it might work out, and if it doesn’t, I don’t necessarily have to stay here for ever. Now to do just what you advised : show them I was the right choice! Thanks

  192. RemoteExec*

    I work from home. I live in the country on 10 acres outside a major metropolitan area. I love my property and my home and my job. One of the reasons I love my home so much is it is quiet all the time, until recently. My husband brought home 18 Guinea Fowl, a rooster to add to our chickens, and a donkey– they are ALL so f-ing loud I can’t think and want to burn the entire place down. I have earplugs in, noise-canceling headphones on, and have taken my laptop to a room with no windows to try to get some peace and quiet. I just texted him that if he brought home one more noisy animal I would murder him and bury him in the pond.

    1. Lumen*

      Eight…teen… guinea fowl? Good lord, time to take away his livestock-buying credit card.

      1. RemoteExec*

        Those Guniea Fowl are so f-ng loud, and stupid, and ugly. I have never hated any animal before, but I hate them. They are loud, stupid, and ugly.

          1. RemoteExec*

            guinea fowl and a donkey, in theory, will alert your chicken flock to predators and scare off coyotes and hawks, which have been a huge problem. But he leaves every morning, and I am here to listen to them.

            2. Quandong*

              …since he isn’t the person listening to the noise all day, would your husband be prepared to make different plans to protect the chickens?

              Like, paying somebody to build an enclosure that protects them from coyotes and hawks, and selling the donkey, rooster and guineafowl?

              I would be furious in your situation, I also value peace and quiet.

            3. Ramanon*

              If this is so important to your husband, why doesn’t he invest in a livestock guarding dog or two? It would be quieter for you, frankly less work than dealing with 18 guinea fowl (which, for the record? do not alert for anything, according to some quick research I did; they are there to be eaten first), and instead of just alerting might actively drive off the hawks and coyotes. The donkey might perform similar tasks to a livestock guarding dog, but depending on its temperament, might decide to guard against you and your husband, too.

              Also, if you’re in Upper Midwest America/Canada, that donkey will not protect you from the American Mink, which will happily murder its way through all those chickens and guinea fowl without eating a single one. (although, if you want that, they sell mink lures…)

    2. Seven hobbits are highly effective, people*

      Sounds like it’s Guinea Fowl for supper tonight!

  193. LQ*

    I am drowning in work. I’m in meetings…7 hours a day most days. And then I have work on top of that. I’ve really had to start finding creative ways to delegate stuff off my plate. I only have one staff person who is still doing work for another manager and then projects for my boss so I don’t really have any of her time. So I’m having to be pretty creative about how I get people to do the work (plenty of it work that they should have been doing all along but weren’t so I just picked it up).

    I’ve had a couple really great moments this week with giving work to people who really stepped up to the plate and are doing a nice job, and who have been very appreciative about how I’m doing the delegation/work handoff. I’m still very new to being a manager (like a month!) and I’m still drowning in work that I don’t need to be drowning in, and a whole lot of other problems, like I’m sure I’m horrible at my job, both the managing and the whole strategic direction management stuff I’m supposed to be doing. But sometimes I have nice moments like the woman who I handed off an ugly task to who was really thankful because I helped her learn some cool (for her) stuff in excel and some data structure stuff that will help her out, or when I pointed out to someone that while it feels like the work he’s doing it nothing it’s actually a multimillion dollar substantial project that he can put on his resume. The …oh…yeah…maybe I’m not THAT bad at it moments are few and far between but I got a couple this week between the panic and stress and frustration and it was really nice. Especially when I read the new manager post yesterday and I was like…oh yeah, totally got that. This blog definitely helps be a better version of me at work.

    I hope other people get moments of success inside their stress too.

    1. MissDisplaced*

      It really does suck when you have that many meetings and no or not enough staff.
      Assess those meetings: must you be in all of them? Or are some more of a looping you in?
      I typically try to block actual work time in on my calendar on certain days, leaving most meetings for other days.

    2. Alphabet Pony*

      Some questions and suggestions for you to think about – all intended kindly in case this doesn’t come across in writing!

      Do you need to be in all those meetings?

      Are you sure you can’t assign work to your staff person for her to prioritise accordingly? Have you asked your boss about this?

      Why are you picking up work that other people should be doing? You really need to stop doing that. Hand it back. If they’re not doing their work, you need to manage them, not do it for them.

      You don’t need people to appreciate how you delegate or handoff work. You need them to do the work. Why do you think you need to do this creatively? You don’t. You are the manager. You get to delegate. If people don’t do what they’re assigned, then you manage that situation.

      Whose permission are you waiting for?

      Are you setting clear expectations with people and holding them accountable?

  194. Lisa*

    Does anyone with UK vs. US work experience have tips to share?

    I’m US born, mid-career, and have only ever worked and lived here – I’ve traveled internationally just a little – and I’ve just been approached about a dream assignment that might involve relocating to the UK for 6-12 months. Most likely I would start out either contracting or working as a US-based employee first (the company is international and not headquartered in the US or the UK), so I’d have some time to get my feet under me. I know a lot of the obvious things to look into – taxes, visas, insurance – but are there also questions I might not think to ask? I’d love to hear from people who have worked in both countries about some of the surprising differences.

    1. Alphabet Pony*

      Not sure what you mean by insurance? Insurance for what?

      If you mean health, I think your visa includes a surcharge that covers access to the NHS. You will need to pay for dental treatment but NHS dental care is cheap (with fixed charges) and you can probably get a free eye test voucher from your employer if you work on a computer. Prescriptions are free in Wales and Scotland – in England if you take multiple medications (excluding free contraceptives eg the pill) it’s worth getting a prepayment card which covers all prescriptions for a flat fee (I pay £10.40 a month for mine and that covers four monthly prescriptions and anything else that comes up ad hoc). Health insurance isn’t something you need here.

      One thing to be aware of is that we don’t have this ‘one bucket for PTO’ some people mention. Annual leave and sick leave are separate. Sick leave is there for when you need it – sometimes on this site people talk about sick leave as just another benefit, but that’s not how it is here. Yes it’s there to use when needed, but you wouldn’t try to use it all up or get it paid out on leaving.

      Some things will depend on your field. I’ve never in my life worked anywhere that had merit raises rather than set pay scales and fixed annual raises, I’ve never had an annual review that was tied to getting a raise, and when people talk about getting ‘meets expectations’ it sounds to me like they are reading from Harry Potter as my annual reviews have always been much more qualitative.

      I would want to know how much annual leave you will get and how many hours in a typical working week – mine have usually been 35 or 37.5 excluding lunch (not 40). Don’t ask if you can skip lunch and just work all day as that wouldn’t be legal. You could ask if they offer flexible working like flexible hours (start/finish times) or remote working.

      I don’t know if it’s different with an international employer but I would usually expect to get a contract for a new job and for this to include:
      – a probation period
      – a notice period (putting in your two weeks isn’t a thing here, it will usually be longer) which may be shorter during your probation period

      If relevant, eg in London, ask about travel season ticket loans because your employer may be willing to front you the money and claim it back through your pay (I don’t think you can get tax relief on this). My employer let me start this from the second time I got paid rather than the first which was great. It’s normal to be asked to sign something saying you will repay it in full if you leave – this is because you can cancel it and get a refund so you won’t be saddled with the cost.

      1. Lisa*

        Thank you! These are exactly the kinds of details I’m looking for – things I would never have thought to ask about.

  195. Jonathan L.*

    I know many companies won’t disclose anything to potential employers other than employment dates. But are companies allowed to disclose nothing at all? Or is there a law that requires them to disclose at least employment dates?

    1. The Man, Becky Lynch*

      Yeah, if they wanted to, they have no obligation to confirm that you work or worked there. Some places may do that under the guise of “privacy”.

      If they did, then you can offer a potential employer your W2 or paystubs for confirmation you did indeed work for Super Villains Inc.

  196. Grand Mouse*

    For the first time ever I had a coworker microwave fish and OOF I see what you all mean.

    1. The Man, Becky Lynch*

      Argh. I don’t get it. The smell is awful and also the fish is awful…unless it’s fishsticks it doens’t make sense!!!

      [Diehard seafood lover who will never ever microwave a piece of fish at work in my on GD home, it’s a sin!]

      I’m sorry you have been put through this torture!

    2. LGC*

      So, a couple of months ago we had a fish microwaver in my office. My room is not too far from the kitchenette, although around a bend.

      People were freaking out about it until we opened the windows in the kitchenette and break area. (These are normal windows that you can just slide up – like in your house. Most people would be able to do it with little assistance.)

    3. Gatomon*

      It happens in my office occasionally (sigh). The microwave is isolated enough that it’s not so bad as long as the smell is vented out quickly enough. We actually have a vent/fan on a simple timer in the room, so you can set it to run for, say, 30 minutes. It is a lifesaver whenever someone burns toast or popcorn.

  197. Chariot Arcana*

    What are signs that your coworker is jealous of you? What about when your boss is jealous of you?

    2. Lisa*

      Is there a particular reason you’re concerned about this? Are you worried you are being undermined or marginalized, or that people you work with feel threatened by you in ways that could work against you?

    3. The Man, Becky Lynch*

      Do you think they’re jealous and scared you’re gunning for their jobs? Or…?

      I mean usually it’s people just being mean and generally catty, then people want to tell that theyr’e doing it because “they’re jealous” of you. You don’t really know someone is jealous of you unless they make comments about you cutting you down usually and even then, it’s not always jealousy it’s just they don’t like you for some reason

    4. NicoleK*

      They make catty, snarky comments. They’re rude. They talk about you behind your back.

    5. Alphabet Pony*

      This sounds like a really energy-sapping thing to worry about. You can’t read other people’s minds. Is it possible you’re being paranoid?

  198. IT bad guy*

    I know this is an endless topic but seriously I have worked at my company for over 25 years and NEVER had this problem. New girl in reception – she gets cold so has the HEAT on. You guessed it, her thermostat controls my office. It is 85 out today – gotta be 80 or more in my office.
    I have said something to her twice now and she says sorry – and then promptly turns the A/C off as soon as it comes on again.
    Here is the thing – I have always been a little chilly in A/C and for all these years I just make sure I have a sweater or jacket to put on. She goes sleeveless –
    Can I suggest she bring a sweater or jacket? Asking her to turn on the A/C (and first our facilities guy checked to make sure it wasn’t broken – he was amazed that the heat was on and told her not to do that as it affects other people).

    2. Lisa*

      You’ve told her not to do that, facilities guy told her not to do that, and she’s new, so it sounds like a really frank conversation is in order. “Jane, I keep discovering that the A/C has been turned off and my office is an unhealthy temperature. As Facilities explained to you, we use A/C in the summer here. What can we do to ensure it doesn’t continue to be turned off?” And if that doesn’t work go to management – or just see if facilities can add one of those locking thermostat covers – this is the sort of situation those covers were made for.

    3. The New Wanderer*

      Nooooo, she doesn’t get to dress super lightly and then put the heat on because she’s chilly. That’s really not okay, and it needs to be escalated if she doesn’t respect your and the facilities guy’s requests. I’d go right to telling her the A/C needs to be on for everyone’s comfort and she needs to manage her own temperature in another way.

      We also had someone who had control over the thermostat, who worked in a private office with an entire south-facing wall full of windows (in Houston, no less) that was connected to our larger work area. In the summer she put the A/C on blast, which made it barely tolerable in her office and an icebox in our work area. Unfortunate, but there wasn’t any other solution.

    4. WellRed*

      You can absolutely suggest she bring a sweater but I suspect you’ll have to take stronger measures.

    5. HamlindigoBlue*

      Making some assumptions based on your username…do you have a lot of IT equipment in your area (or does it look like you do?) to where you can say that excessively high temperatures can affect the equipment? If she keeps doing it, maybe facilities can put a lock box on the thermostat.

    6. CM*

      I think step one is to explain to her that you’re not comfortable with the temperature and ask what the two of you can do to reach a compromise.

      If that doesn’t work, I think the next step is to measure the actual temperature in your office, because it sounds like you’re speculating right now, and you’ll be in a stronger place to make an argument if you know for sure what it is.

      Once you know for sure what temperature your office is, I’d go to your boss and explain that you’re not able to keep working in these conditions, and be open to the possibility that maybe you can change offices with somebody who likes being warmer, or maybe you can have a portable air conditioner for your space, or anything else.

      I’d avoid framing it like “Which one of us gets to decide what the temperature is?!” and frame it more like, “How can we both be comfortable in the office?” Even if you personally believe that the best solution is for her to bring a sweater.

  199. Washed Out Data Analyst*

    Stressing out over writing the perfect thank you letter! What makes for a good post-interview thank you e-mail?

    1. Nice Going Angelica*

      In my experience it’s uncommon to really stand out in a good way with a thank you note, so don’t put too much pressure on yourself to make it perfect! Super simple: “Thank you for taking the time to speak with me about the position! I really enjoyed learning more about X, and think my past experience could be a real asset with Y. Please reach out if there’s any additional information you need from me as you make your decision. I look forward to hearing from you!”

  200. Trixie*

    With my Boss retiring shortly, there is genuine concern an interim Boss hasn’t been assigned over the last few months. There isn’t even a transition plan in place and my Boss can’t do anything to make it move forward. She’s been waiting to meet with the new Grand Boss for a while but that person doesn’t appear concerned. Perhaps because they are thinking of the longer term search required but we still need a plan. Which we don’t have.

    Great conversation with my soon-to-retire Boss yesterday. She wished she has put forward a promotion for me (awesome to hear she was that happy) but thinks any such move now would be on hold indefinitely. I then said I appreciate the feedback but I honestly didn’t know what my plans were after her departure. As surprised as she may have been, she completely understood and offered to help route my resume to connections in New City or anything else I needed.

    The upside is I can know work with my current Boss to network for jobs in New City near my family which is a win-win. Plus that I felt comfortable enough sharing my potential plans and she offered nothing but support for my needs and concerns. This is a good example of why I moved to the position almost a year ago. I do wish i had more time with her as a mentor but we can keep in touch by email.

  201. Drowned Lab Rat*

    Just a bit of venting:
    I posted here a few weeks ago about how my coworker got fired the same week my lab was shut down temporarily due to fume hoods failing annual testing. Things started to feel normal again until management informed my lab that we’re looking to quickly expand our department from around 15 people to nearly 30. We’re expected to be able to house three to four reactors (from 1L to 5L) in each fume hood. I’m skeptical of this because I’m not sure they will provide adequate ventilation with so much stuff packed in them. Also, the group is supposed to move to a more “open lab” environment where benches and fume hood will be used in a fashion similar to hot desking. We already have myriad housekeeping issues since we have a lot of people already working in this space, and I don’t think adding more complexity to our setups will help.

    My company also announced that it’s exploring options with regard to selling our company. . . something something shareholders. My lab shouldn’t have too much about layoffs since they are pouring so much money into the expansion. However, there is still absolutely no overtime allowed because THE BUDGET!!!

    On top of this, the best technician is leaving for a different job at the end of this month. They really took on a lot of extra responsibilities (some way outside their job description) to help our lab with training, safety, and workflow. They told me that they tried to progress to the next step in the career ladder (raise) due to these contributions, but they were stuck in limbo for about a year after having a few meetings about it with our managers. Since I did well on my mid-year review, I brought up career ladder progression with my manager this week, so I”ll see if I can get anywhere with it.

  202. Lynne879*

    It’s a little late for my question, so I’ll talk about something positive.

    I had two interviews this week. The first one went ok, but I knew I was immediately out of the running when she said that she thought I had more experience in Teaput Construction (even though it didn’t really say that in my resume), but I recovered well. The second interview (which was a 15 minute phone screening) went really well, and the interviewer seemed really interested in me! I hope I get around to a second interview *fingers crossed*

  203. FrauBurau*

    First time poster! My family is moving cross-country due to my husband’s job. Due to long-term commitments at my job, I gave my manager almost 6 months notice of this move. During the course of that time, I was asked to help find my replacement. After sending them at least 3 qualified candidates, my manager decided to hire his step- daughter (who has no experience in this type of position). He also managed to start a few minor panic attacks with some of our clients and independent contractors over this new hire, and asked me to be the one to tell the rest of the staff and clients about the new Manager. As I had no input on who got hired, and when questioned what made this person qualified to do the job was told because the daughter was somewhat interested in trying it, I refused to be the one disseminating the information.

    Just Monday, I was able to finalize my actual leave date, which is still 10 weeks out. Today, I received a call from my manager’s spouse telling me my last day doesn’t work for the new Manager (the daughter) and would I pick either the weekend prior to leave or two weeks later to leave, as either date is more “convient” for the daughter. Keep in mind, the spouse is NOT my boss, nor is in the “chain of command” for this business.

    Suggestions on how to handle this? I have two independent clinicians coming in during September and training clients of my own I am trying to complete before this move. I want to leave in good standing but the downright nepotism is really pushing my buttons.

    1. WellRed*

      I hope you shut spouse down politely and chilly. Tell your manager this happened and, the same way you refused to diseminate info about Nepo hire, tell him this was highly inappropriate and it needs to not happen again. Then, refuse to engage if similar happens again. Please update!

    2. Asenath*

      I think you can and should stand firm – just politely repeat that it is impossible for you to change your leave date. Since you’re leaving anyway, there’s no point in saying anything about how inappropriate it is for someone who isn’t your boss or even in your chain of command to bring up changing your leave date.

    3. Lara A Burau*

      UPDATE: well, my manager refuses to discuss this with me, and keeps deferring me to his wife. I have put a call into the owners to ask them if there is a problem with me leaving on the declared “last day”, or if they are aware of any reason I should leave earlier. (Please keep in mind, if I leave early, I will be cancelling one of the workshops as I refuse to “run” a workshop if I am not there. This will put the owners out of almost $1000 in lost revenue; it will put me out of almost $2,000 lost revenue; it will put the workshop clinician out of almost $3,000 lost revenue.)

      Am I being petty? Should I simply talk to the Manager’s spouse? Should I simply acquiesce? Thankfully the company moving my family is willing to be flexible on move dates but I am feeling a bit self-righteous about how much I have already bent over backwards for them on this.

      1. 2horseygirls*

        What the actual H3LL!!

        Nope. You have been 1000% transparent and up front through this entire situation, and literally no one gives 6 months notice – no one.

        Why isn’t StepDaughter communicating with you directly, incoming mgr to outgoing mgr, to start learning the ropes? This is precisely why StepDaughter should start shadowing you at least 2-3 weeks out, and see what processes and procedures are in place, so she has time to formulate her coverage strategy for the weekend you are moving/she is unavailable.

        Considering you were asked to set up all the clinics for 2020, they now want you to cancel on one of the clinicians they asked you to set up because StepDaughter’s schedule isn’t convenient? What does that say about their professionalism to their clients, clinicians, and vendors?

  204. Paralegal Part Deux*

    Well, right before I left the office, my boss (who owns the company) handed me a check and said “thanks for all you do” and then walked off.

    Kind of speechless at the moment.

    1. Anne (with an “e”)*

      Sorry… I’m a bit confused. You mean you received a bonus check, right? If so, then — Yay!

      1. Paralegal Part Deux*

        It’s not even really a bonus- those are from the company we use for payroll. This was just a handwritten check from the operating account. It was just odd.

  205. Cat Meowmy Admin*

    Happy Friday, Alison & AAM Commentariat! First question ever for me here! I need advice about LinkedIn.
    tl;dr – I don’t know if I should have a LinkedIn profile or not. Do you feel that Admin Assistants (*not* at an EA level) should bother with LinkedIn?
    Well – here’s my unusual(?) story –
    I’ve been an Admin for decades, and I really enjoy it! Aside from past older jobs, I worked for a global organization in midtown Manhattan for 10 years. Promoted to Senior Admin after 5 years. Laid off in 2010 during the recession. I then helped my husband run his small business – a neighborhood luncheonette; he’s worked in restaurants for 30 years. Landlord sold the building in 2014 and we had to close. Fortunately hubz simultaneously maintained his 20+ year career as an account exec for a local manufacturing firm, still does. (He kindly credits me as his “right hand” for him to be able to manage both his own business and his full time job.) But lort!! We were worn out!
    Here’s where my career trajectory kinda falls apart further off course –
    As I was about to begin my job search, our geriatric dog began having health problems which deteriorated over the next 2 years. I was basically providing round the clock hospice care for our beloved pet until it was his time.
    Then we rescued and adopted a couple of stray cats while helping the feral cats in our own backyard (google “TNR”). Through related events, I got involved with some volunteering with a local animal rescue. Animal welfare is my true passion, but careers in the field are few for a paid admin position; I’ve been trying.
    After some hardships with my husband’s family (his brother died at age 54), that resulted in a further job search setback.
    By now, its 2017. I finally got some momentum. Went to the local DOL job services, updated my resume (such as it was), took refresher computer courses at the library and a local training center. Applied for jobs throughout with no luck, or hired for jobs that really didn’t exist.
    During that time, I offered my admin services and organization skills to help individuals and families streamline their home offices, and basically serve as a personal assistant. It was a barter system, no actual pay, but I kept busy and useful!
    Finally in September 2018, I was hired as a part time admin for a well established small business in my area, and I’ve been working there since. That’s a whole other animal and I need to find a job with more days and better pay so I can contribute to my household. (Even a 2nd part time job; I’m looking.)
    Considering how I have not really had “upward career progession” over the years, would I look foolish setting up a LinkedIn account? Please feel free to be honest, as I value your opinions.
    Thank you! (And my apologies for the essay)

    1. Nessun*

      I’ve been an admin or EA for 16 years, and I’ve always had a LinkedIn profile. It tracks my progress through admin roles of various flavors and lists my volunteer work and affiliations (IAAP in particular). I do get cold call interview orders from it, and if I was building a new resume (I’m not currently looking) it would be my go-to for data. I don’t think there’s any harm in having one, and if someone sees your name in a resume it might add to the comfort level to see that data online also.

      1. Cat Meowmy Admin*

        Thanks so much for your reply! Good points, appreciate it. I was also a member of IAAP when I was with Big Company; worth looking into it again. I figured a LinkedIn would be a good tool in my belt. :)

        1. Mellow*

          I also think it’s a good idea to have a Linkedin account. If nothing else, it’s a good centralized location for contacts you might need as references, but of course there are tons of ways to leverage it for a particular purpose. Good luck!

  206. Working With Family*

    It’s been around 6 months since I resigned from my last position, due to dealing with family health issues. During the time, I worked part-time at my family’s business (since my parents were too ill to run it and we need the money) while juggling doctor/hospital visits. Now that the health issues have been stabilized, I’m hoping to start job searching asap. However, could I put in the part-time family business job on my resume to show that I haven’t been lollygagging for the past 6 months? I didn’t have time to volunteer or do anything else much unfortunately, so I worry that only having my most recent job be from 6 months ago would be a read flag to hiring managers.

      1. Working With Family*

        I just thought it might be a faux pas because that would mean that my latest manager would be my parents. Which is kinda weird, no? Not sure if I should write on the resume something like this?

        Family Business Name 1/2019 – Current
        * Worked part-time at family business to support ill family members
        * Etc.

        1. Anono-me*

          I wouldn’t necessarily put the bullet point about taking care of ill family members. A lot of how I would phrase it depends on what exactly the family business is. But I’d focus more on the actual responsibilities you took on especially any managerial or supervisory responsibilities.

          As far as your parents being your last manager; it’s not so much a faux pas, as it is a concern that possibly they might be just a little tiny itty bit biased in your favor when giving a reference. So it is alwalys good to have additional non-relative references.

          I’m glad your parents are doing better and wish you luck in your search.

        2. Alphabet Pony*

          I would just say you worked for the family business and not include the part about illness. I hope things go well!

  207. PotatoPotato*

    It’s been a few weeks since I started my temporary position and it’s very obvious that I am not a good fit. I have around a month left in my contract but I’m already dreading going back to the workplace because I am being singled out for mistakes that stemmed from bad communication and blatant favoritism from the boss.

    My ideal situation would be to resign gracefully with a 2 week notice but the contract is already coming to an end in 4 weeks – so what’s the point? My biggest fear is that I’ll be fired and carry around that stigma, especially when filing out applications that ask if I have ever been fired from a position. This fear stems from the two mistakes that I made, which my boss later told me that the mistakes could have been a fireable offense… in front of the whole team. When I had no prior training on handling these situations and was repeatedly told to stop asking “so many questions” prior.

    SO I don’t know. Would it be best to just stick around and pray that nothing else rocks the boat, while I quietly send out job applications? Or resign and not put this position on my resume? Or hell, just get fired?

    1. MondayBlues*

      If it’s a contract position, I’m not sure that you can resign? But, if you feel like this really isn’t the right fit, I think you can bring that up! Sit down with your manager and let then know that you know you’re struggling with getting up to speed, and that since you don’t feel like it’s the right fit, you’re wondering if it makes sense to end the contract early. That would be my approach..

    2. NicoleK*

      Do you need the income? If yes, then hang in there until the contract ends. But either way, continue to apply for other jobs.

  208. eep*

    So I have reached my 3 month mark at a new company. So far so good – it’s a thousand times less stressful than the higher paying but utterly unhealthy (mentally and physically), abusive atmosphere I left behind. One of the things I looked for in a new job is a more ‘normal’ office atmosphere, with things like other employees, and healthy working relationships and boundaries, and … performance reviews. Yeah, I WANTED performance reviews. The thing is that my 90 day review is upon me, and I didn’t realize I was getting one until they handed me the sheet of paper! (Their offer letter mentioned 6 months, not 90 days). 6 months I think I would have felt more confident but 3 months?? I’m baffled as to where to even start! They want me to discuss my successes, my challenges & growth, and my goals. Goals… I have a lot of ideas in mind, no issues there. Success? Challenges? I mean I don’t even know how you measure that in a span of 3 months! I went looking for suggestions as to how to tackle a performance review – specifically a 90 day review – and just found a bunch of junk ‘advice’ columns from junk job boards (like glassdoor’s advice to employers “ask your brand new employee if they’ve left a review on glassdoor! Because that definitely will not set alarm bells ringing that you are trying to figure out who’s posted what by when they posted!”). Does anyone have any advice? Know of any well written advice specifically for a 90 day review? (I’ve went looking through AAM but the advice I found seemed more geared toward reviews where you’ve now been there long enough to make a dent or two in the walls!)

    1. Help needed please*

      Think of it as a chance to show off why they hired you. A former company head at my office wanted a version of these almost daily. (Not kidding). Any projects you worked on, where did you contribute ideas? Did you bring in a client or improve a relationship with one? Have you identified any obstacles to company procedures? Since it is a three month one, use it as an opportunity to seek out your supervisor’s help. Try not to stress, this is probably just a procedural formality.

      1. eep*

        Honestly, It’s BECAUSE this is the first one that I’m stressing. Too many variables! And because I was expecting six months, I had been mentally preparing myself for *that* one, and this one being dropped in my lap was… very stress-inducing! Once I get through it I’ll at least know what to expect for next time, which will vastly lower how much my brain has to go into overdrive about!

        And sorry, I should have mentioned this as it’s important to the problem! I’m administrative! So like… I complete forms with information they give me based on templates they’ve created on systems they control… I mean, what is success in this sort of situation? Challenges? Well, there have definitely been some: hardware/software solutions & policies that definitely hurt my ability to learn my job and continue to hurt my productivity, out of date/non-standard templates/lack of a centralized information database in a job where you’re filling out documents dozens of different ways for dozens of different reps in dozens of different companies who use our services (for the latter, I immediately started a word doc to track the rules per company, and yes I do plan on at lest putting *that* on the table which is… one whole thing?) – but I’m guessing “here’s all the stuff that you guys are doing wrong according to me” is a TERRIBLE idea for a 3 month review, and I worry that it could come off as listing all the reasons I hate my job when no, actually, I love it, so I don’t want it to come off as whining either (unfortunately this is made more likely by whether whoever does my review has a thing against “resting not-even-gonna-say-it face” – which I have, and which *has* made some people think I’m pouting or sulking in direct response to what they just said when I’M THINKING for pete’s sake, but even if you explain that, in my experience people who’ll judge you based on that face are just going to keep thinking what they think, and honestly, that’s another big part of why the first review is making me so nervous.)

    2. Alphabet Pony*

      We have a three-month interim review and then the official one at six months. I would think about what you’ve learned so far, and what you’ve been able to put in place, and where you think you might be in a few more months. Also: it is ok to ASK THEM about what to put in there :)

    3. NicoleK*

      When I managed, I completed 90 day reviews with my new employees. The purpose was to assess their learning pace, give feedback, and familiarize them with what the expectations were. Obviously, I did not expect the new employee to know everything at 90 days, but I wanted to be sure their learning/knowledge was where it should be at 90 days.

    4. Seven hobbits are highly effective, people*

      I’ve never had a 90 day review, so take this with as many grains of salt as needed.

      Could you try approaching it as “these are the things I’ve figured out so far (and feel confident doing)”, “these are the things that I’m actively working on figuring out right now (and would appreciate guidance/suggestions/feedback/training about, if applicable)”, and “these are the bigger-picture things I hope to be up to speed on in 6 months/a year once I have my feet under me”?

      1. eep*

        Oh my gosh your re-wording of that is AWESOME! I feel way more confident about how to complete this now, thank you!!

  209. Help needed please*

    Recently, my section went through its second reorganization in two years. First one, several coworkers and I were told we are under an upper tier supervisor who was above my previous supervisor (who I got along great with). Upper tier supervisor not so great but we kept it professional. Now they switched it back. My supervisor is back! We get along, work on projects and she is sending me on extra training. The problem is the upper tier manager (my supervisors boss) is being rude, aggressive, and mean to me no matter what I do. How can I turn this around? I show up early every day, work my tail off, serve on teams, and nothing is good enough for her, I’m always getting criticism from her, nothing is ever good enough. She reports directly to the top boss who adores her. Please help.

    1. Tabby Baltimore*

      If your current supervisor is not aware this is going on, you need to make her aware. How to do that? Collect all the written instances you have of your former boss’ criticism (good and bad) and also make a written record of what she delivered to you verbally (dates/times she delivered this criticism, what exactly she said, and about what). After you do that, have a sit-down with your boss and let her know about these incidences, how you responded, and ask for her to (1) step in and handle this kind of higher-level feedback herself and distill from it what’s important for you to incorporate, and (2) provide you with guidance on how to handle this kind of criticism in future if it comes up again. IMO, your former-boss-now-grandboss should not be leapfrogging over your boss in this way.

  210. Lena Clare*

    Anyone see that hamster/hampster work thing on Twitter yesterday? I’ll post a link in the comments.
    Some people are…well, if you’ve read this blog for a while, you’ll know.
    I’m not sure it *is* an example of helicopter parenting, so much as spoilt child grown up to be spoilt adult, but hey.

    2. Alphabet Pony*

      That. Is. Amazing. I’m sharing with my journalism and content friends who will be amused and horrified in equal measures!

    3. NeverNicky*

      I have two student interns working for me, starting Monday.

      We work in Comms.

      There will be edits and feedback on copy.

      Perhaps I need to have a little chat about my expectations over spelling, grammar and parents…

  211. Lars*

    Oop late here. I put in my notice Monday and while I’m dreading the next week before I’m out it was way easier than I thought. Phew

  212. New leaf, no drama*

    So I need some guidance- I work in a sort of toxic, fairly stressful job that has occasional flair ups of very toxic. I have contributed to this in the past and am trying to do better. Managers style is benign neglect. A client recently reported a coworker for a pattern of rude, insensitive behaviour over a period of a few months. We were told en masses that a complaint has been lodged and to make sure we were all polite to the client in the future. I happened to be in a common area when manager approached a supervisor about making sure the client and the coworker didn’t cross paths for awhile (just the 3 of us were there). Supervisor guessed coworkers name and now I know who it is. It happens to be someone I am friendly with but who I could also see behaving in the way described. Coworker is off for a few days but heard there’s a complaint, doesn’t seem to realize they are named in it, and are texting asking what I know. I’ve just been playing dumb as I feel it’s out of my lane and I don’t want drama…any ideas on how best to handle it??
    TL;DR I know something I wish I didn’t and don’t want to get involved. Ideas for deflection would be appreciated!

    1. WellRed*

      Just say you don’t know anymore than they do. The coworker has no idea you overheard that convo, right?

  213. Tired*

    I am at a loss. Hard pill to swallow that my meandering career has led me to a point where I am in a job that is out of my depth and is in a toxic environment. I have had some bad experiences in leadership roles (I am newly senior titled – 2 years) lately and i am 7 months into a job that I think my shelf life is dwindling fast. Trying to plot my next step and coming up with zilch. No idea at this point what makes me happy outside the thought of taking a break but that brings about huge guilt and fear of not bringing in a salary. Feeling pretty trapped and hate having to fake it at work pretending I’m an employee that can tackle difficult conversations, problematic colleagues and CEO or know what I’m doing. I know a steep learning curve feels like this and sticking it out is probably what’s best. Currently job searching but everything out there is so depressing. Work in media and marketing and oh my god it’s all just BS. Thanks for letting me vent :(

    1. WellRed*

      I work in media too on the editorial side. No clue what to do next and so sick of the word content.

  214. I WORKED on a Hellmouth*

    Hello from Still Not The Hellmouth! My start date at the new job got pushed until this past Monday, so I have just completed my first week employed elsewhere. I’m actually very glad that I wound having a full week and a half before starting (even though I will have to tighten up the budget accordingly)–I had a lot more emotional processing to do than I had realized. Not that I’ve really FINISHED processing, but that first week was kind of a roller coaster. Elation at being away from that place, but then just a lot of unnameable anxieties, all kind of seesawing back and forth. Part of me still feels a little defeated for taking another property management job, but the rest of me is just thrilled to be somewhere else.Although deep relief is still my strongest feeling. But anyway! The time to decompress a little was good.

    The new property is unbelievably beautiful, but more importantly, the team seems really competent, nice, and normal. The boss is a new manager who wants to be a Leslie Knope and I can see that he has some micromanaging issues, but they all stem from him wanting to do a really good job and keep everything beautiful and on track. I can roll with that. The assistant manager is warm, funny, and professional. The other leasing consultant has been won over with snacks, and the maintenance team is friendly and seems to be on top of their work. The overall company culture seems pretty good, too.

    All security cameras and the like are very prominently placed, were pointed out to me when I arrived, and were listed on the waiver that I signed when I did my new hire paperwork. So, you know, I don’t think I have to worry about secret microphones anymore. Huzzah! I’ve already gotten a taste of the craziest resident (her hot water smelled weird, so she has decided her pipes are poisoned and nothing can convince her otherwise), and it is NOTHING compared to the Hellmouth resident tantrums. The only thing I’m really worried about is maybe boredom? Well, that and not eventually finding a job outside of property management.

    The Hellmouth is still Hellmouthing in both expected and very UNexpected ways. Expected: I’ve gotten a few text messages from The New Dude asking weird stuff (how are renewal rates generated and is there a formula I can give them, etc). Less expected: Text messages from people I have never met or heard of saying they are from the Hellmouth and asking if I can tell them things like where the cable for the digital camera is. Completely unexpected: A former Hellmouth resident apparently moved to the new place shortly before I started. On my third day she came into the office, recognized me when I cheerfully greeted her (I did not recognize her, although I did think she looked familiar), and promptly went to the assistant manager and then the manager and proceeded to spend half an hour hysterically telling them that Former Hellboss and I had made her life hell, falsely filed for eviction on her, and discriminated against her and that I needed to be let go because she didn’t want to see me/moved here to get away from the Hellmouth.

    I recognized her name when the manager told it to me–Former Hellboss DID have some kind of beef with her and probably messed with her, but I definitely never filed on her or had any unpleasant interactions with her, so… yeah. That was upsetting. Both the assistant manager and the manager told her that they hadn’t seen me be evil and also that any issues that she had were probably caused by people above me and not me, and the lady has come in to the office to use the super fancy coffee machine a few times since then and been sweet as pie to me (and I’ve run into her over in the adjoining shopping/market area a few times on my lunch break and held doors for her and been a pure ray of sunshine), so hopefully everything is fine? I had a small anxiety attack over it when the manager pulled me into his office to explain what was going on, though.

    Let’s see, what else… oh! We had a homeless guy somehow get into the (extremely awesome) clubhouse yesterday and escape detection for almost a full day. He had a great time playing pool and watching TV, and didn’t get caught until other residents saw him find and start availing himself of the wine and cheese for the (canceled because of the tropical storm/hurricane) luau for this weekend. This was apparently a first, and I can’t help but feel like I somehow brought some Hellmouth craziness with me. However, he was pretty polite when he got bounced and barely cussed us out as he exited the property, bottle of wine in hand. We also had what looked like an Instagram influencer couple use some sort of metal tool to open the gate to let themselves into the (seriously, ridiculously swank) pool and spa area, and I got to watch the assistant manager swiftly jettison them. It’s good to know that property amenities are defended regardless of social status and the like.

    And that’s basically it! The majority of my week has been computer classes and training, so there’s not a lot more to tell. Hopefully Barry will be kind to us, and I’ll have another largely normal next week, too. I’m also still hoping to hear back from some of the state agencies I’ve applied and/or interviewed with in the next few weeks, but the whole hurricane thing may seriously delay that, too. Keep your soggy southern friends in your thoughts, folks.

    1. Aphrodite*

      What a wonderful update! I guess the Universe just needs to have a bit of mind fun, reminding you that there is even some craziness outside of Hellmouth. (Who knew?) But it sounds like you are bowling everyone over with good cheer. I am happy for you because now I believe your relief and cheeriness will get you into your dream job with the state. You simply can’t help but bring it with you wherever you go. So please do keep us apprised.. Your stories, even without the awfulness, are wonderful.

    2. Blarg*

      Get a new cell number. It’s mildly a pain but SO WORTH IT when people from former jobs can’t text you. You don’t have to decide to ignore them, feel guilty about it, etc. It is so easy to change, too. You go online and pick a new number. That’s it. Congrats on getting out! I hope the storm starts moving faster and doesn’t dump as much water as it could.

    3. Three Pines Visitor*

      Welcome back to the light side, and thanks for the update! Not that I’ve been checking hourly since yesterday afternoon or anything *whistles* I’m so happy current management has your back! It’s probably is good you have this job so you can gradually detox…er, transition back to normality doing something you’re familiar with, in a decent environment, with competent management. Yay you!

    4. Mimmy*

      Glad everything is going well in your new! You’re going to find crazy people everywhere, unfortunately. Hopefully this place won’t have the magnitude of crazy the Hellmouth had.

      Crossing fingers you eventually get into your desired line of work!

    5. Wishing You Well*

      Glad to hear from you! I hope your new job works out well for a long time.
      PLEASE let us know how you are doing after Hurricane Barry.
      Sending good thoughts your way.

    6. Kirsten*

      When I worked in the VA system, I remember some sort of literature (maybe for families of those returning from combat) explaining that when military people return home from combat, they often seek higher stimulation levels from high-adrenaline activities like skydiving (healthy) or substance use (less healthy) to cope with the sudden calmness of their life. I imagine you might experience some form of that. Whereas your new job might not be boring to someone who has been in more normal job environment, you may be so used to the craziness of the Hellmouth that anything else will feel really dull in comparison. Just something to think about.

      And count me as another person who has been following your saga every week and is super elated for you to be out of there! The new place sounds like a breath of fresh air.

      1. A. Lovelace*

        Linking this with NoLongerYoung’s comment about this job being a bridge:
        When the military return home from combat, they do ‘decompression’, where they spend a few days recuperating before returning to their normal life. I would consider this job some type of decompression, where there is still a paycheck, but it’s an opportunity to gain healthier habits before starting the job you really want. View this place as an opportunity to reset expectations, and habits, so that you will be healthier and happier when you start at a new place.

        Best of luck, and I’m so happy for a positive update!

    7. Belle di Vedremo*

      Hurray for a week off post Hellmouth! Glad to hear that so much is going right in the new gig. May that continue, and may your search for a wonderful job outside of property management be rewarding. And yes, keeping everyone in Barry’s path in thoughts and prayers.

      Please keep us posted!

    8. SAHM*

      Yipppppeeeee!!! So glad you’re at a new place with sane coworkers!! I’m so happy for you!!

    9. WoodswomanWrites*

      That’s nutty that a former resident appeared, and it sounds like you’re handling that odd situation great. While property management is a field you’re ultimately looking to leave, congratulations on landing in a place that is sane with reasonable people who’ve got your back. I imagine it will take some time to recover from the Hellmouth, and I hope you can recognize that it’s normal to be triggered by things for a while, and to be kind to yourself for whatever time it takes to leave that place behind mentally and not just physically.

      Keep us posted on how you’re doing. Like so many here, I’m rooting for you. And wishing the best for those in the path of the storm for sure.

    11. NoLongerYoung*

      So glad to hear all went well the first week!!!
      Hope you hear soon for a job in the state agencies/ other locations. In the meantime, think of this as a nice bridge from crazy town to the real world.
      SO HAPPY FOR YOU.

    12. pcake*

      Thanks for the update, and I’m glad the new job is a huge improvement. Hope you get through Barry okay!

    13. Close Bracket*

      That resident probably has the same trauma from living on the Hellmouth that you have from working there. Try to view her with the same compassion that you want others to view you.

    14. NerdyLibraryClerk*

      Glad things are going well (a few minor surprises aside)! I hope the weather doesn’t get too exciting, and hopefully Former Hellmouth Tenant will/has realized that Former Hellboss was the problem and not you.

  215. Responding After Violence*

    This may need to be removed if it’s inappropriate or triggering.

    I live in northern Virginia, and the workplace shooting in Virginia Beach has been closely followed by my coworkers and me. There have been a few news stories in the past two weeks about what to do with the building where the tragedy occurred, and how to handle surviving staff. They have apparently started firing and arresting employees who act out when the incident is discussed (for disturbing the peace and getting restraining orders). I don’t know all the details obviously; it’s been a topic of conversation. On one hand, it’s a terrible trauma. On the other hand, work has to be done. What do you do?

      1. Anne (with an “e”)*

        I think they are firing employees at OP’s place of employment, not the survivors.

        OP, if that is correct, I guess your employer is trying to put everyone’s safety first. If employees are talking in a threatening manner and/or are getting restraining orders against each other, it makes sense for your employer to fire the trouble makers.

        Remember, free speech means that you you cannot be jailed or fined by a government agency for what you say. If your employer doesn’t like people talking about the shooting/ what people are saying about the shooting, then they certainly are within their rights to fire those people.

        My advice—- don’t discuss the shooting at work.

        Look at it this way, I’m a teacher, if I knew one of my students were discussing a school shooting that had occurred I might investigate. People are rightly worried about copycats in the wake of these tragedies.

        1. Anne (with an “e”)*

          Ignore the previous comment. I stand corrected. I see that at least two Virginia Beach employees have indeed been fired. It appears that some employees have lashed out/ said some inappropriate things. Those poor people. All of those employees must be suffering from so much tension, PTS, fear … I cannot even imagine.

          1. valentine*

            What do you do?
            Grief counseling. Time and space to talk about it. Generous leave. Temps. I would say move the office, but no place is free of trauma and that could be an enormous backfire if it feels like erasure and gaslighting, like a big-scale version of the colleagues who wanted to preserve deceased Jane’s desk.

  216. JJ*

    I hope this isn’t too late to be seen, but I’m having trouble writing my resume.

    I work in a job (grocery store stocker) where employees are somewhat separated and it’s hard to gauge your performance in relation to other people. I work after the store closes, so no interaction with customers. Our supervisors are reluctant to give praise and very nitpicky, so no matter how hard you work you still feel like you’re not doing well. We’re judged heavily based on how fast we go, but I’ve never been fast, just steady and reliable. I am extremely thorough and good at keeping things neat and especially finding items that are about to expire, but I can’t put a number on how many or how often. My grandboss, who never gives compliments, calls me “one of our good stockers”. I’m not really exceptional regarding metrics, but I’m almost never late (like less than 3 times a year, and never without a heads up call), I come in when I’m scheduled unless I’m too sick to get out of bed, I’ve volunteered to switch my off days to help out with exceptionally large loads, I get along well with other employees, I am a good trainer for newbies, I am very safety conscious, I volunteer for extra work almost every day, and I do whatever my supervisors ask me to do even if I prefer not to. I’m a good employee, but this job is a bad fit and I can’t hit the metrics. I had been told I was the best rotator in the store, but I was injured and can no longer do that. I know I saved the store tons of money each month with my rotation method, and at least two people have adopted my method as well. However, I can’t put a number on how much money I saved or how many products I caught.

    How can I express this (both the general reliability and the unquantifiable rotation) as accomplishments on a resume? I’m hoping to get a job as a receptionist or some kind of clerk. I used a notebook to schedule and track my product rotation, so I think I can use that as a selling point of my organization and (mini) project management skills. I can’t honestly say I saved the company $x or prevented Y number of products from expiring on the shelf. I also can’t say that I rotated Z times more product than anyone else because I have no way of knowing how much product the other employees rotate or how often. The most I hear is when someone screws up big time and hundreds of dollars of expired product are found on their aisle. Then I have a number, but that’s not a regular occurrence and there’s no way to know how much I personally prevented. I can’t even say that expired product was never found on my aisle because the other people who worked it on my days off would mess things up, not even checking to see if the product they were stocking had come in expired before they put it on the shelf.

    I’m frustrated because I feel like I’ve done a pretty good job, but I can’t put any actual numbers on my performance. I even got a bad performance review last year for being slow, even though a month or two beforehand I was told I was such a good stocker they wanted me to train others on how to do it. *facepalm*

    (Sorry for asking this again. I can’t find which thread I posted it on before and I can’t remember the username I used.)

    1. ..Kat..*

      Well, you work well independently. And management was so pleased with your work that they made you a trainer. You are flexible and work extra when needed.

      Sorry, that’s all I have. I struggle with this as well.

    2. That Girl From Quinn's House*

      To be honest, it’s likely the metric they are using to rate how good you are is set so that no one can excel. If you meet the time metric, you fail the quality metric. If you meet the quality metric, you fail the time one. This gives management excuses to avoid giving you raises, and creates a situation where they have a paper trail of grounds for termination of every employee at any given time.

      I don’t think you should take your bad reviews too personally- just include on your resume what you do well, and what you have been praised for.

    3. tamarack & fireweed*

      Just my $0.02, but I think you may be more focussed than it’s worth on demonstrating these qualities in your resume. (I also think that for those of us not in sales or process improvements, “saved company X dollars/month throughout 2018” often sounds artificial and a bit fanciful – many jobs have no way of actually quantifying that. Neither should they.) You can put two bullet points, about training junior stockers and about your independent focus on product rotation. (But be aware that as soon as your resume goes to someone outside retail, they will likely have to think a moment before they understand what a rotator does and why it is important. )

      Where this should go is, I think, your cover letter. Without letting it go too long (no more than 2-3 paragraphs in email, or whatever Alison says :-) ) , this is the place to explain why you think the skills that constitute your strengths in your current job would be a great contribution in the job you’re applying for. And in your shoes, I’d also prioritise job openings where you can make a good case for exactly that, ie, where diligence, careful attention to detail, and staying on top of operational schedules are particularly valued (or however you’d conceptualize your strengths).

  217. AITA*

    A workplace question, if anyone is listening…

    I recently started a new job. To use Allison’s lingo, let’s say I’m a teapot designer. My company hires a lot of contractors and we’re all classified as “teapot specialists” to make things even more confusing – but the company needs designers, so that’s what we do, despite the title vagueness. I clarified in my interview that I would in fact be a teapot DESIGNER, and not a teapot assistant or something, which they confirmed.

    So we’re a little understaffed (hence me coming on board) and I’m supposed to work with the blue teapot designer, who also has to design teal and navy teapots. All the designers are responsible for a particular color, and he’s overworked. I figured I’d take a color off his hands, once I was fully trained up. So far, since I’m new, I’ve been just helping him with the teapot stuff, which is fine, but I assumed in a few months, I’d get my own color. But I met with him recently, and I got the impression that he had no interest in giving up any of it, and wanted to work on the high level stuff, and wanted to leave the day-to-day to me. Which is fine FOR NOW, until I’m trained up, but he made it seem like he would never give me ownership of anything. This is not what I signed up for. Am I crazy for being upset?

    1. designbot*

      it sounds like you’re reading a lot into the terminology of designer vs. assistant, that may or may not be what the company intends. In my field, it’s very common for more experienced designers to lead less experienced designers, even if they have the exact same title. I would clarify with your manager before making any assumptions about it.

      1. AITA*

        It’s not really that – people know I’m a teapot designer. I haven’t seen any other teapot designers in my office with this situation, which is why I am concerned.

    2. WS*

      He’s seizing an opportunity to do all the design stuff and leave the mundane stuff to you and gambling that because you’re new you will just accept it. Get onto this with your manager ASAP and get a timeline (or at least a list of what training you require) for when you can do your own design stuff. You don’t need to mention anything about this particular designer, just talk about how excited you are to be getting ready to do teapot design and what do you need to do to be assigned a colour?

    3. Coder von Frankenstein*

      Not crazy, but maybe a little premature. Have you talked to your boss about this? It’s possible that the blue teapot designer isn’t on the same page as management, and that management does in fact expect that you will have your own color eventually. Obviously Blue Designer would love to have a permanent assistant to handle the boring parts of his job – who wouldn’t? – but that isn’t his call.

      So I would definitely talk to your boss. Say that while you’re happy to work in this role while you’re being trained, you signed up to be a designer and not a design assistant, and try to get some clarity on what they expect your long-term role to be (e.g., you will eventually be in charge of Teal) and what the road map looks like for you to get there. If your boss seems receptive and can give you at least a rough timeline, that’s a good sign. If they’re vague and waffly, that’s a bad one. If they tell you flat-out that this is your permanent role, well, there’s your answer, and it may be time to resume your job search if this is a deal-breaker.

    4. Close Bracket*

      You are not crazy. You can’t expect him to just give up his good and interesting work out of altruism, though. You will have to work through your boss to get a transition plan in place.

  218. PBJnocrusts*

    Late again i hope someone sees this
    I left a toxic workplace (temporary contract) in November. I’m still job hunting I’m getting interviews but not offers. Feedback is positive when I can get it. My question is does anyone else feel they wish they had stayed in toxic job because now I have no job ? In toxic job I was so very miserable but better that than nothing at all? What’s everybody’s thoughts? Was I wrong ?

    1. Lobsterp0t*

      That’s a trap, for sure. I have wished repeatedly that I stuck it out at toxic Oldjob instead of all he problems I have had at Newjob, but it literally gave me a nervous breakdown, and despite how hard Newjob has been at times, it has been manageable.

      You can’t take back your decision to leave. Your situation now isn’t a punishment for making the wrong choice. It’s just sometimes what happens when you haven’t got things lined up perfectly. And that isn’t usually within your complete control, anyway!

      1. PBJnocrusts*

        Thanks Lobsterpot:) nervous breakdown almost/very close too. So I know it was not the place for me. (?!?!)

  219. None the Wiser*

    Posting awfully late, but hopefully someone can chime in.

    My direct supervisor has been out for a couple of weeks because one of their parents passed away. They have been in email contact and condolences have been extended. A card was made available for everyone at our site to sign. I signed it but also plan on giving them my own card, because I am a direct report, we work closely together and have a good relationship.

    My question is: they sent the obituary and it noted that in lieu of flowers, donations to a particular charitable fund would be appreciated. The fund is named after a family member who died of a horrible disease at a shockingly young age. Would a donation to this fund violate gifting-up norms?

    Thanks!

    1. fposte*

      No, if you feel like donating to the fund that would be absolutely fine, but it would also be absolutely fine if you didn’t.

    2. WellRed*

      Gifting rules don’t really apply to bereavement situations. If you want to donate, go ahead. If you don’t, send a sympathy card.

    3. Anne (with an “e”)*

      If you feel moved to donate, do so. I don’t think it violates any gifting up norms. Likewise, do not feel pressured to donate if you don’t want to. Basically, do whatever feels right to you. Give if you want to, don’t give if you don’t want to.

      1. MJ*

        You are donating to the Fund; your direct supervisor will not benefit personally from the Fund.

  220. Scifiscientist*

    MS Outlook mavens – please help – urgent

    Hi all, I’m that person who sent my out of office schedule to the national group by mistake (we’re talking thousands of people). I sent it this Friday at around 4:30 PT and recalled it 10 minutes later. The problem is I’m still getting message recall failures. From reading online it seems like it only recalled the email from folks who had their outlook open at the time of the email.

    Does this mean that it didn’t recall the message for everyone in earlier time zones? Will they open their email tomorrow morning and it will be there?

    Is there anyway to recall it again?

    I’d hoped to limit this embarrassing mishap but it might be too late….

  221. Hope*

    Just in case anyone is still reading the open thread… Last week I got to the final round interview of what seemed like potentially a dream job (yes… I know it’s not possible to tell from the outside) and didn’t get it. When the recruiter called to let me know, he explained that while
    I had interviewed well, the chosen candidate had more experience in two of the core tasks of the job. Super sad of course, but understood the decision.

    As a sign of how awesome this org is, they have been giving me feedback throughout the process (they actually scheduled feedback/prep calls with me before the second AND third/final rounds… amazing right?). I have now have a final feedback call tomorrow with the hiring manager (offered by them). I plan to ask their advice on how to strengthen my candidacy for future similar roles (which represent a doable, but real, shift from the kind of work I do now), and also say I’d love to be considered for any future roles at their org for which they think I might be a better fit.

    Here is the question: I am longing to know whether there was anything in the psychometric personality test they asked me to take that raised any flags for them in terms of my suitability for this role. Is there a way I can ask this without sounding totally weird? Or should I just leave it? I’m already so grateful they’re willing to take the time to give me this feedback – I know it’s unusual. Thanks in advance for any thoughts!

    1. PX*

      I would phrase it more broadly, asking if there was anything in any of the tests that stood out – either positively or negatively? [note, these tests may not always have equal weight to an interview for example, so scoring poorly/well may not matter as much as you think]

      But if they said you interviewed well, I would more likely stick with the general question about how to improve your candidacy.

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